00:01:47 chiiph [n=chiiph@190.1.21.180] has joined #lisp 00:02:13 TR2N [i=email@89-180-188-114.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 00:02:23 equality between objects is parameter by parameter? or just the reference? 00:06:05 Demosthenes [n=demo@204.52.135.62] has joined #lisp 00:06:50 chiiph: there are many equality predicate functions 00:07:06 chiiph: eq, eql, equal, equalp, =, char=, string=, string-equal, etc 00:07:58 Zephyrus__ [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 00:08:06 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/syntax-and-semantics.html has some info about it under "Truth, Falsehood, and Equality" 00:09:30 Xach: thanks :) I'll have to invite you a beer for all the hints you're giving me hehe 00:10:26 -!- mairoxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 00:11:41 Don't tell anyone! Lisp people are supposed to be rude and unfriendly. 00:12:33 Xach: that's c.l.l, this is #lisp ;-) 00:13:04 *Xach* lives both places 00:13:24 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-49-225.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:15:14 -!- necroforest [n=jarred@pool-173-79-12-74.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:18:26 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [No route to host] 00:19:06 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.196.12] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:21:02 *gigamonkey* read some of the horrible thread Krystof posted in the other day and got over any inclination to start reading c.l.l. again. 00:21:22 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:21:40 -!- mishoo_ [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:23:19 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:28:50 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:30:19 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-19-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:55 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 00:32:24 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-77.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:34:40 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:36:38 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:06 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:12 -!- fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit ["Leaving..."] 00:38:27 *rpg* *so* doesn't understand RESTART-CASE 00:38:56 is there some special way of browsing c.l.l. everytime I look I seem to see only rubbish 00:39:57 nowhere_man pasted "Should that infinitely recursive function really get SBCL in LDB?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93365 00:40:20 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:40:28 I just wrote an incorrect recursive function, that will not stop calling itself 00:40:33 rpg, what about it is confusing? 00:40:39 I got 00:40:41 INFO: Control stack guard page unprotected 00:40:42 Control stack guard page temporarily disabled: proceed with caution 00:40:51 Edward [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-61-153.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:41:23 nowhere_man, the recursive call is before the termination test 00:41:34 could/should SBCL recover from that and continue running fine, or is it reasonable for it to crash? 00:41:54 Adlai: It's probably not the restart-case proper --- it's catching and invoking properly. I have code wrapped in an error handler, that tries to invoke a particular restart. When the code in the restart-case clause for that restart throws an error, all kinds of cryptic fun ensues.... 00:41:59 I know where the problem is in my code, my surprise is about SBCL's behaviour 00:42:12 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:42 nowhere_man, that's a very tight recursion that you have there, but it's not tail-recursive, so it blows up SBCL's stack. 00:43:05 Adlai: I think what I need to do is catch the errors I know how to handle, and wrap them up in an /identifiable/ condition class. Then I need to write a more focused error handler. 00:43:39 yes, you should use as specific a condition as possible 00:44:43 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:44:47 Adlai: ISTR a discussion here where people said it was evil to wrap one error in another and re-signal, but I can't recall why.... 00:44:54 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:45:00 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:45:16 oh wait, I misread. Why would you need to wrap errors in this case? 00:46:21 coyo [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:48 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:48:41 NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-43-82-249-145-96.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:53 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-43-82-249-156-106.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:55:29 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:06 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 rrice1 [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-145-54.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:27 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-145-54.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:03:30 -!- rrice1 [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-145-54.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:05:30 docgnome [n=docgnome@174.120.42.4] has joined #lisp 01:06:21 what do i need to allow asdf-install to do gpg in sbcl? i have the gpg debian package install but it fails 01:07:08 docgnome: You also need to import and trust the keys. 01:07:16 ah 01:07:22 fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 01:07:23 (of whomever signed the software you're fetching) 01:07:34 Xantoz [n=user@c-e9b6e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:08:12 Or disable gpg checking, which is about the same thing, since there's no way you're actually going to verify all 20 keys you need to satisfy all the dependencies. 01:08:30 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 01:11:00 -!- konr [n=user@189.96.84.121] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:11:39 konr [n=user@189.96.84.121] has joined #lisp 01:13:20 Xach: just wanted to let you know i read through the site you created with Erik's posts and appreciated it. 01:13:32 -!- fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:13:42 rpg: Why would it be evil? I do that routinely, to provide better context and more precise error reporting. 01:13:56 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:13:58 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:14:11 Notably, the CLHS is not precise enough about the conditions that must, should or may or not be signaled. 01:14:31 fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 01:15:59 -!- docgnome [n=docgnome@174.120.42.4] has left #lisp 01:16:01 Xach: i found it clean/easy to navigate. however, the keyboard shortcuts didn't work for me but it's probably related to vimperator/firefox 01:16:59 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:17:45 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 01:20:11 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:22:00 billitch [n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:07 Orangutan [n=Oranguta@201.170.8.205.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:15 -!- Orangutan [n=Oranguta@201.170.8.205.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:23:35 derrida: for shortcuts you need C-z 01:24:47 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:57 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 01:27:29 -!- Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:28:41 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:29:24 Adlai: Sorry -- I had to run off and be a parent. 01:29:57 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:30:15 pjb: I was wondering that myself about why it was bad to resignal. I want to do this because I need to indicate errors as coming from a particular location. 01:32:06 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:06 -!- timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:33:34 Alabaman_ [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 01:37:19 derrida: glad to hear it. sorry about the keys. i did it in probably a too-simple way. 01:38:59 *Xach* is going to spend tonight getting phrase search integrated 01:41:25 -!- Zephyrus__ [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:44:48 lpolzer_: paktahn glitches trying to install clx 01:44:54 from aur 01:49:04 hassa [i=4b5bedeb@gateway/web/freenode/x-cztpyrqragbniwsk] has joined #lisp 01:49:08 -!- hassa [i=4b5bedeb@gateway/web/freenode/x-cztpyrqragbniwsk] has left #lisp 01:49:10 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:50:06 nowhere_man: re "Control stack guard page temporarily disabled" -- that's a warning that you've hit the first stage limit. you then have a weensy amount of stack to recover in. if you do, sbcl will be perfectly fine. if you overrun *that* stack, crash. 01:50:47 (hopefully, said weensy stack will be enough to enter the debugger) 01:51:39 rpg: Well, I agree that you should do that as close to the source of the error as you can. 01:51:55 Also, do that in a handler-bind, not a handler-case. 01:52:22 -!- fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:58:03 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:58:25 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:00:18 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:02:14 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:03:47 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@204.52.135.62] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:06:58 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:08 benny [n=benny@i577A18BE.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 02:09:23 nostoi [n=nostoi@234.Red-79-150-1.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:35 GrayGnome [n=MuneNoKa@user-11fa52h.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:12:43 -!- GrayGnome is now known as GrayGonme 02:16:08 -!- Lithos [n=chatzill@DSLPool-net214-62.wctc.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.0.17/2009122116]"] 02:19:47 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 02:23:34 gonzojive [n=red@c-98-234-48-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:02 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:26:24 Xach: beannie man, what are you using for a search engine on the EN archive? 02:27:24 Xach: plus you have an opportunity to provide a better usenet interface than google groups, if you wanna follow this line to its logical conclusion :-) 02:27:31 fusss: http://xach.com/naggum/articles/notes.html#search 02:28:04 underdev [i=j2geek@cpe-98-27-227-21.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:28:09 what works fine for 5,000 articles would not work great for a million 02:28:31 oh 02:28:49 you guys are always smart. What is it called in programming where there are some tiny situations in which the normal situation is not true? 02:29:00 I have seriously abused montezuma, but now flirting with Postgres' full-text search 02:29:13 also used Ferret and Lucene in other projects 02:29:26 not side-effects 02:29:32 underdev edge case possibly 02:29:33 not base cases 02:29:42 that may be it 02:29:47 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-199-50.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:30:35 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:32:33 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:32:40 pjb: back again --- sometimes the error-handling (restart-invoking) policy needs to be set far away, so local code needs to wrap errors in special cases so that error-handling can be precise. 02:32:40 ty 02:33:02 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@234.Red-79-150-1.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 02:33:11 np 02:34:30 -!- Alabaman_ [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:35:14 -!- underdev [i=j2geek@cpe-98-27-227-21.neo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 02:38:07 -!- Edward [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-61-153.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 02:38:18 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-52-184.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 02:41:11 -!- pjb [n=t@187.Red-79-149-141.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:42:51 xpololz [n=xpololz@90.80-203-124.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 02:43:42 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.215.32] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 02:52:09 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 02:52:30 kenanb1 [n=kenanb@88.238.42.177] has joined #lisp 02:54:11 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:55:34 keltor [n=keltor@unaffiliated/keltor] has joined #lisp 02:56:27 if you could choose one common lisp implementation, without a care for graphical support, which would you choose (linux support only) 02:56:51 There would be a bias for SBCL in here, but it's justified. 02:57:46 -!- xpololz [n=xpololz@90.80-203-124.nextgentel.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:58:03 keltor: I quite like sbcl. It's very stable on linux and it produces very fast code. 02:58:18 It is well-supported by SLIME. It has decent Unicode support. 02:58:27 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-pwlfwjvymjuramte] has left #lisp 02:58:32 How can bias be justified? 02:58:37 *rme* stirs up trouble 02:58:41 hehe 03:01:25 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 03:02:27 keltor: ACL. Sorry, but the debugger is far superior to SBCL's. 03:02:31 But it's expensive. 03:02:55 SBCL trains users to avoid bugs! 03:03:17 :) 03:03:40 keltor: you look familiar 03:03:45 keltor: SBCL. And actually delivery would be bigger differentiator for me, but not necessarily a plus for SBCL (but trying to do more "advanced" delivery tricks would make the point moot ^_-) 03:04:10 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:06:09 -!- Ri- is now known as Ri-|away 03:06:20 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 03:08:38 I've actually delivered onto SBCL after developing using ACL... 03:08:50 64-bit support is another SBCL advantage. 03:09:01 Java integration is another ACL advantage.... 03:09:50 Isn't there some Talking Heads song where they say "Some good points/Some bad points/It all works out/Sometimes I'm a little freaked out" or something like that.... 03:10:00 -!- kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.45.204] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:10:04 I'm off.... 03:10:25 -!- fractalis [n=fractali@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:10:59 cools` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:11:14 RaceCondition_ [n=erik@62.65.193.141.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 03:11:54 -!- RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.17.223.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:11:54 -!- RaceCondition_ is now known as RaceCondition 03:11:58 Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:12:56 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 03:15:45 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:15:58 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-139-221-245.range86-139.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 03:17:43 on average, doing everything client-side, with native Lisp (including full CLOS) was only 20-40% slower than doing gritty low-level database hacking with prepared statements 03:20:36 is pixie look of mcclim stable enough to use as the default or would it be better to use mcclim default look? i don't care about the look very much but i want to use pixie if it is as good as the default. 03:20:46 -!- cools` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:21:21 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:21:22 do you know any issues that pixie look may fail (maybe in a specific type of pane or whatever) 03:22:04 where was cl-emacs moved to? 03:22:12 emacs-cl that is 03:22:55 stuff not showing up on www.nocrew.org 03:23:23 or maybe someone needs to do something to the CVS server 03:23:31 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit ["WeeChat 0.3.0"] 03:23:37 kenanb1: do you have any good screenshots of differences between pixie and default? I haven't noticed anything, but it was nearly given that I did something wrong :) 03:24:20 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:25:28 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 03:28:19 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-84-187.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 03:28:29 p_l: you can see the difference especially at the menus, pixie look menus have thinner borders and the color contrast of the 3d border effect is less while the default menus have thick borders and the bright side of the 3d border effects on menus are nearly perfect white, pixie's approach at least make it less disturbing. also you can see some difference in the scrollbar ending arrows, pixie look has a more natural and simple look while the default is again a 03:29:03 pjb [n=t@101.Red-88-30-120.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:06 ok, probably some of my last post is cut, i can copy paste the missing part if that is so 03:30:21 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:31:52 it cuts at "default is again a" 03:32:38 while the default is again a bit weird, but except these kind of very little things, both are ok 03:35:31 hmm... I wonder how much work would be necessary to get the whole styling outside the app code, to make it "stylesheet style" :) 03:36:03 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:38:35 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:39:56 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-98-234-48-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:40:11 gonzojive [n=red@c-98-234-48-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:18 p_l: i don't know, i am up to preparing a nice look for mcclim but after i saw the source of pixie look, i thought about the same thing, really makes it hard to set different styles for the interface, but i guess it wouldn't be too hard. 03:42:56 kenanb1: I was thinking of stuff like define the look&feel details (like colours, fonts etc.) in separate place 03:44:19 ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.194] has joined #lisp 03:46:10 *Xach* writes *LET instead of LET*, supposes it's nearly time to sleep 03:46:29 i think the best approach would be keeping the sizes and proportions the same, disabling any default border first and just arrange a layer that changes the look of spesific parts of the interface 03:46:41 If you wrote le* instead, it would be easier to pronounce. :) 03:47:25 saikatc [n=saikatc@adsl-99-138-83-148.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:26 Zhivago: depends in which language. starlet is easy enough in English. l'etoile is better in French. 03:49:10 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-183-224.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 03:49:51 p_l: i saw some code in pixie look that changes the tab layout behavior a bit eg. making the enabled tab bigger, if we try to implement a layer which can arrange these kind of spesific options it will be too hard not for the source code of the layer, but for the user who wants to provide some new styles because it makes things complicated. 03:51:18 kenanb1: I was thinking about making it kinda like CSS 03:51:25 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-84-187.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:51:26 so the best thing would be to decide on the sizes and proportions of every part and provide an abstraction layer which is only capable of changing the look of the style. 03:52:35 p_l: making a css like structure for styles seems to be way off my league to me, i think i can only make a much simpler structure. 03:55:43 -!- blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 03:58:14 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-199-50.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:58:58 p_l: i think providing even a much more simpler structure would be enough for a start 04:01:00 bobrown [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:26 wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d818954.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:39 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:03:06 -!- ruediger_ [n=quassel@93-82-9-101.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:04:30 kenanb1: I was thinking of a generic function that given a class and the property would give you the value defined in current "style", with possible extra method that would check for specific instance + simple inheritance 04:04:36 Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:10:43 p_l: that would probably only provide a very nice way to access the styles but the real headache starts when you try to provide methods which handle the interaction between each gui element (every gui element will possibly effect each others position and size dynamically if you let the highest level functions change the proportions) 04:12:41 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.77.65.198] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:15:45 -!- wakeup^ [n=wakeup@koln-5d8140ff.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:16:33 -!- coyo [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Exit Coyo Stage Right"] 04:16:37 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:17:43 in fact there won't be a problem inside the interaction panes, command panes etc. but the things like prompt panes, radio buttons tab layouts will be problematic, not too problematic, but hard enough for a guy who is not a very good programmer (that's me) so, i think i can't help at this point 04:20:07 kenanb1: I was thinking of simply specifying stuff like different states that could be passed to said generic function as a keyword parameter 04:21:04 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:21:31 so for every gui element, its implementation would have something like (or (get-style 'property-name :state 'disabled) (function-providing-standard-look)) 04:21:57 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 04:22:27 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.76.127] has joined #lisp 04:27:03 p_l: did you check pixie look source? 04:27:28 not yet. What I was talking about actually came from my research into WPF :) 04:28:22 :D 04:31:25 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 04:34:22 p_l: it can be implemented in various ways. but i don't know which will suite better for creating clim styles, pixie look source code can be very helpful to understand what someone needs to make a style for mcclim right now, and what exactly will be the real problem, accessing properties like colors, fonts and borders won't be hard while implementing an abstraction layer like style sheets. 04:34:41 " and what exactly will be the real problem, accessing properties like colors, fonts and borders won't be hard while implementing an abstraction layer like style sheets." (if cut again :) ) 04:37:04 GrayGnome` [n=MuneNoKa@vpn3-144136.near.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 04:38:28 potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f666334-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 04:39:35 Ah, reinventing html and css. :) 04:39:36 Sukoshi`` [n=MuneNoKa@66.245.20.81] has joined #lisp 04:41:26 Zhivago: would you like to join :) 04:41:43 Well, not really -- although I am glad that pixie seems to be helping you. 04:42:02 I came to the conclusion that clim is probably a waste of time a few years ago. 04:42:03 Zhivago: oh, did you write pixie? 04:42:15 Originally -- I don't know how much it has changed since then. 04:42:39 I think that instead of putting effort into clim it might be better invested in taking the lessons of clim and applying them to dhtml. 04:42:45 But don't let that discourage you. 04:43:14 I'm probably wrong. :) 04:43:34 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-98-234-48-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:44:22 c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has joined #lisp 04:46:28 Zhivago: nope, it is obvious why you think that way, and it is probably true for your needs 04:47:09 I'd like to see presentations for dhtml sometime :) 04:47:19 Maybe I'll get an opportunity to make it someday. 04:47:46 Zhivago: well, I was thinking of gutting CLIM into a toolkit with more "modern feel" to it (as well as implementing similar thing for DHTML), but I'd like something for local apps that don't use HTML :) 04:48:03 Fair enough. 04:48:03 it would probably only take a few days now 04:48:10 lpolzer__ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-198-058.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:49:36 Zhivago: :) i hope so, clim has very nice ideas inside, but i'm not sure most of them will fit to other interface structures 04:50:46 Zhivago: do you remember what were the tricky parts while writing pixie 04:50:49 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.76.127] has left #lisp 04:50:53 AutoCAD is basically a proto-CLIM interface 04:51:23 konr` [n=user@189.96.93.169] has joined #lisp 04:51:25 it's not just written using a lisp, but with an interactor pane and with presentations 04:51:25 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:51:54 kenanb1: It was all fairly straight-forward, iirc. 04:53:04 Brian: Do you know of anything recent on the use of beta abstraction to make infinitely large programs into finitely large ones? 04:53:17 it would be fun to factor out different parts of CLIM into portable tools that could be then reused in different toolkits, like for example the command system (which IMHO should definitely work with not only CLIM, but also Garnet/DHTML/whatever) 04:53:23 I guess 'beta abstraction for code compression' 04:53:40 -!- GrayGonme [n=MuneNoKa@user-11fa52h.dsl.mindspring.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:55:14 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:56:58 -!- GrayGnome` [n=MuneNoKa@vpn3-144136.near.uiuc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:59:18 Zhivago: I was even considering writing some code that would transform CLIM's accepting-values into DHTML-powered form, doesn't look so crazy as long as the validation code isn't too complex 04:59:44 I was thinking more about the whole climish system running in dhtml. 05:00:06 Zhivago: it was part of that :) 05:00:35 -!- konr [n=user@189.96.84.121] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:00:38 i still somehow think that clim can be extended and modified to be as powerful as most of the modern toolkits 05:01:02 Clim is more powerful in many respects, but less usable. 05:01:03 Invalid index 0: must be between 0 and -1. 05:03:06 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 05:04:08 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-232-227.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:07:43 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:07:59 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:08:07 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 05:11:24 Zhivago: yes, that was the part that i mean by modifications :D but i think all can be handled, the most important part seems to me the portability 05:11:50 -!- aja_ is now known as aja 05:11:55 what is (the ...) used for? is it just hints to the compiler about expected types that declarations can't easily access? 05:12:17 *Phoodus* read the CLHS page that says what it is, but not what it's for :-P 05:13:40 Phoodus: I had used it to declare types in places that couldn't be properly declared other way (like declaring the type of a return value of some funcall/form) when SBCL couldn't guess the type 05:14:19 ok, so it's basically a (declare ..) for inline/pass-through variable types 05:14:35 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/html/cltl/clm/node106.html 05:14:47 Phoodus: this may help :) 05:16:14 yep 05:16:26 I sort of guessed that's what it's for 05:16:37 and now I know 05:19:47 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 05:23:08 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@adsl-99-138-83-148.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:24:46 do you know if i can make an init file for climacs? 05:25:08 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.76.127] has joined #lisp 05:26:54 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-19-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:29:08 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.76.127] has left #lisp 05:29:31 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.76.127] has joined #lisp 05:31:42 coyo [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:33:10 someone had to ask: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1051031 05:34:37 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.76.127] has left #lisp 05:34:58 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.133] has joined #lisp 05:36:00 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 05:38:22 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:46:09 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:49:27 *fusss* raises a glass of early beer to the all people who made the cross compilation of a giant project with 11 cliki dependencies possible, without a change, between sbcl, clozure and clisp, on linux and win32 05:49:29 cheers! 05:50:12 alan1 [n=alan@196-209-171-188-wbs-esr-4.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:50:53 -!- alan1 [n=alan@196-209-171-188-wbs-esr-4.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 05:51:21 alan1 [n=alan@196-209-171-188-wbs-esr-4.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:51:40 -!- alan1 [n=alan@196-209-171-188-wbs-esr-4.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 05:53:35 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:03:58 Kolyan [n=nartamon@93-80-213-22.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:06:35 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-183-224.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:12:24 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:59 <_deepfire> fusss, nice stuff! 06:16:30 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:23:46 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:25:30 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:25:36 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 06:29:22 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 06:29:41 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-199-50.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:30:26 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 06:31:10 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.133] has quit ["so long.."] 06:32:13 tensorpudding [n=user@99.148.206.229] has joined #lisp 06:33:12 splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-qwdgvganvfmxclgk] has joined #lisp 06:33:23 morning 06:34:09 balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-249.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:54 hi splittist 06:40:13 -!- Madsy [n=madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit ["leaving"] 06:41:02 when i try to use fuzzy completion from climacs, it gives an error: undefined variable, swank::*buffer-package* 06:41:21 does anyone know where is that *buffer-package* 06:42:02 swank is normally loaded but i couldn't find which extra file to load for this 06:42:10 Probably gone, Climacs uses undocumented internal Swank symbols and that part of it has not been updated for some time. 06:42:39 plage [n=user@113.161.70.110] has joined #lisp 06:42:47 Good afternoon! 06:42:49 madsy [n=madsy@ti0207a340-0091.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 06:43:40 Athas: so there is probably no way to use fuzzy completions easily within climacs. i see, thanks for saving me from hours of more search :) 06:46:20 Well, the *buffer-package* thing is going to affect you in other ways too. 06:46:36 how? 06:48:00 Athas: i haven't seen any problems indenting completing compiling until now, but i haven't tried for long. 06:49:45 Athas: by the way i achieved to make other swank features work in climacs thanks to your directions, it seems to be that my bigger problem was that climacs somehow doesn't recognize the Meta key of my keyboard, but it is not a huge problem since it is interchangable with Escape key, but except that and the fuzzy completion i didn't see an issue. 06:50:13 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:50:57 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 06:51:28 IIRC, *buffer-package* is used to indicate to Swank which package should be used for symbol completion and the like. 06:52:04 The Meta key issue has something to do with the rather simplistic input handling in McCLIM's CLX backend, but I can't remember the details. 06:52:31 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["work"] 06:52:48 kenanb1: If you are on Ubuntu, you might want to play with the keyboard configuration, for instance, instead of default, you may explicitly make ALT a Meta key. 06:53:00 so i think maybe i should use an older version of slime? (i only use slime for climacs, so i think it may be a good idea) 06:53:38 Well, older versions of Swank may not work with current SBCLs. 06:53:44 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 06:54:05 So why does this (1.0.32) SBCL not have threads enabled? 06:54:29 plage: nope, i am in tiny core linux, it is a 10mb desktop distro, so i am not sure if it even has a definition for meta key :D 06:55:03 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:55:31 I see. 06:56:53 Athas: anyway, so i'll keep it the way it is now, not a very big problem, i would switch to emacs but the fact that emacs is 11 times bigger than the operating system :) and the os works on a 250mb flash disk :) so there is no free space for emacs :) 06:58:08 A selling point for climacs I hadn't considered - smaller than emacs (: 06:58:24 btw does anyone now a simpler emacs version which (doesn't have mail readers etc. and) works with slime without a problem? 06:59:45 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-83.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 07:02:02 kenanb1: most of emacs features are "plugins", implemented in emacs lisp. If you want to remove them you can easily do so by deleting the elc files in the emacs distribution. 07:04:27 |Soulman| [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:09:36 So does anybody know why my SBCL doesn't have threads? Did someone make a mistake when the binary was generated, or is this new policy, or something else altogether? 07:09:54 What does *features* have to say about it? 07:12:22 No threads seem to be mentioned there. 07:12:35 Well, then it was probably built without threading support. 07:12:41 plage: the binaries until 1.0.34 doesn't have thread support by default 07:12:52 Zhivago: Right. 07:13:37 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:13:52 kenanb1: Hmm, I am fairly sure I have installed SBCL from binaries in the past, and they had threads. But it might have been the 64-bit versions. 07:15:02 plage: nope, you probably are right, the binaries had thread support long ago afaik, but then they decided to disable it by default, then with 1.0.34 it is enabled again 07:16:50 jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 07:17:25 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:18:12 -!- RaceCondition [n=erik@62.65.193.141.cable.starman.ee] has quit [] 07:18:22 kenanb1: That would explain it. 07:21:01 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:26:59 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:27:03 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:29:43 <_deepfire> Yay, Athas is back! 07:31:51 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 07:36:10 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 07:36:45 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:37:35 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-199-50.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:41:46 jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-117-170.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:42:16 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:47:00 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-161-187.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:47:16 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:47:37 postamar [n=postamar@AMarseille-252-1-72-219.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:48:06 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:49:00 -!- postamar [n=postamar@AMarseille-252-1-72-219.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 07:51:43 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-16-102.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Valete!"] 07:53:05 -!- plage [n=user@113.161.70.110] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:57:03 googling i am not finding how to find emacs-cl 07:57:21 just lookng for a sourcetarball somewhere 07:57:28 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 07:58:26 addled_ [n=adl@21.Red-81-38-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:27 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:00:53 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 08:02:01 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:02:17 good morning 08:03:34 -!- derrida [n=derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:04:03 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:04:12 dmiles_afk: emacs-cl is also packaged with gentoo, so you can get a tarball from (old) gentoo mirrors. 08:04:35 dmiles_afk: recently, gentoo removed any package that has no "stable" tarball. 08:06:23 Otherwise you will have to use cvs from nocrew.org, but right now their CVS server seems to be down. 08:06:24 ah nice .. searching gentoo 08:06:24 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 08:06:36 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:45 hopefully not totlly external in ebuild 08:06:47 http://ftp.eenet.ee/gentoo-portage/dev-lisp/emacs-cl/emacs-cl-0_pre20060526.ebuild 08:07:44 In distfiles, you will file the tarball. 08:08:27 h 08:08:29 ah 08:09:37 think i found one http://mirror.lug.udel.edu/pub/gentoo/distfiles/emacs-cl-0_pre20060526.tar.bz2 08:10:26 i am back at it trying to add common lisp to CYC 08:16:47 -!- keltor is now known as keltor|sleep 08:18:02 snearch [n=olaf@92.225.50.26] has joined #lisp 08:18:40 somecodehere [n=ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has joined #lisp 08:18:46 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:19:37 -!- snearch [n=olaf@92.225.50.26] has quit [Client Quit] 08:19:48 snearch_ [n=olaf@92.225.50.26] has joined #lisp 08:20:53 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[n=fiveop@g229147057.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:01:58 addled_ [n=adl@21.Red-81-38-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:03 smackarang [n=user@91.190.137.236] has joined #lisp 10:02:26 -!- addled_ [n=adl@21.Red-81-38-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:02:37 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:03:28 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:04:50 -!- Soulman [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:04:51 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:04:59 -!- Soulmann is now known as Soulman 10:05:02 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 10:06:49 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:07:05 cross-implementation ("portable") seems inherently futile; there are too many implementation-details that would have to be checked for each implementation 10:07:53 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:08:45 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 10:09:01 for example, even though all implementations may provide an interrupt-thread function, it is not clear how that function is run within the thread. Are interrupt disabled/enabled? What am I allowed to do? Am I supposed to use a with(out)-interrupts? 10:12:44 timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:12:53 -!- timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Client Quit] 10:13:34 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:13:35 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 10:15:46 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 10:17:26 djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 10:18:39 -!- Axioplase_ [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 10:18:53 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:19:04 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 10:20:04 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:02 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [] 10:22:47 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:23:24 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 10:23:38 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:27:22 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:27:38 tcr: what about grabbing the strictest case and then emulating it on the rest? 10:27:52 (where needed) 10:29:01 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp121-45-54-127.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:29:42 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:31:00 Athas` [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:31:02 it's a damn lot of work, I guess 10:31:18 -!- Athas` [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:36:33 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:39:01 tcr: well, it's kinda like writing concurrent code for linux kernel... if you want to write it well & portable, you better have an alpha ;-) 10:39:01 -!- potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f666334-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:39:12 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-165-120-12.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:39:44 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-165-120-12.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:13 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:40:50 why? 10:42:51 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 10:44:24 POP doesn't have any side-effects other than basically poping a cons of a list by re-referencing a variable? 10:44:34 Can I be sure of that? 10:45:13 (pop x) mutates x 10:45:19 jtza8, POP can have the side-effects of the setf expander for the place you're popping 10:45:33 An excellent point 10:45:39 tcr: linux kernel memory locking primitives are all oriented around alpha 10:45:44 ie, if you (pop (some-clos-accessor x)), it might update a database for all you know. 10:45:45 Ok 10:46:00 right 10:46:14 Although, in the following case? 10:46:36 (setf x '(1 2 3) y x) (pop y) 10:47:09 -!- NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-43-82-249-145-96.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:47:12 Safe to use pop as a sort of iterator? 10:47:15 that will only side-effect the lexical binding of y 10:47:45 jtza8: yes, (loop for x = (pop list) while list do ...) is common 10:47:47 rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:47:51 well I'm assuming y is a lexically bound variable; again, if it's a symbol macro, it could have some other setf expansion. 10:48:08 Yes 10:48:15 Thanks then. 10:52:36 tcr: fwiw Java threw similar issues (threads asynchronously messing with each other) in the too-hard basket nearly 15 years ago. http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/guide/misc/threadPrimitiveDeprecation.html 10:53:14 Hurrah for channels. 10:55:20 around the same time I think Java also stopped allowing multithreading in GUIs. instead there's one GUI thread and if you want it to do something then you put a Runnable on a queue. that is quite neat, since then you never have to worry about atomicity etc in GUI code. 10:56:13 I have the impression this is basically how things have gone in GUI-land, i.e. it's too hard to synchronize lots of threads all widget-hacking at the same time, so toolkits hand over widget-hacking responsibilities to a single thread. 10:56:22 That "only to the gui from a single thread" restriction is very annoying. 10:56:42 Speaking generally, not only about java. 10:57:03 yeah. but in practice it seems like a lesser evil than the every-thread-for-himself approach, is my understanding 10:57:21 What's annoying about it? 10:57:42 Rob Pike etc have more elaborate ideas along the lines of thread-per-widget. 10:58:09 tcr: well for one thing you would need call/cc to e.g. blockingly show a dialog box. 10:58:19 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:58:34 and indeed in old Java versions if you showed a "Yes/No" modal dialog box it would freeze the whole GUI :) 10:58:48 Suppose you write a graphical development environment in lisp. If you signal a lisp error in an gui event handler, you can't run your graphical debugger to figure out what went wrong, because your gui thread wants to run a break loop. 11:00:22 as much as I love Qt, I see it as a great advantage of GTK that it can be used from multiple threads in the following sense at least: There a big lock, which serializes everything, but you don't have to designate a particular thread responsible for GUI stuff, and can instead pass the responsibility around by grabbing the lock from a different thread every time. 11:00:22 lichtblau, memo from fe[nl]ix: http://gitorious.org/~sionescu/hemlock/sionescu-hemlock 11:01:45 besiria [n=user@pantou.lib.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 11:02:06 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 11:02:38 For Lisp projects I see that as particularly important, because I'd like to have multiple "applications" running in the the same Lisp image. So each such application is single-threaded for its GUI stuff, but they don't have to worry about integrating with each other. 11:02:54 lichtblau: interesting! I have also wondered if that would be a solution for Lisp. i.e. emulate cooperative threads using a big lock 11:03:00 (or a big lock per disjoint subsystem) 11:03:37 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:04:28 in our webapp, each session is single-threaded and the rest is handled by the crappy browsers 11:05:22 attila_lendvai: one Lisp process with one (p)thread per client session? 11:06:04 I'd guess several lisp processes with load balancing 11:06:18 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-89-223-228-98.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 11:06:29 lukego, no, n worker threads, and one lock per session 11:06:47 there are CL libraries for CSP (channels) now, too -- 11:06:50 minion, chanl? 11:06:52 minion, calispel? 11:06:52 attila_lendvai: do you ever have problems with worker threads messing each other up? 11:06:52 over that we can have optionally several processes on a cluster with sticky sessions 11:07:37 lukego, not recently. if the vm is not corrupted, then things seem to work fine. a year or two ago sbcl had numerous issue though 11:07:38 -!- spoofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:07:39 calispel: Calispel is a concurrency library for thread-safe message-passing channels, in the style of the occam programming language. http://www.cliki.net/calispel 11:07:41 chanl: ChanL is a concurrency library built on top of Bordeaux-threads that provides channels as thread-synchronisation primitives. http://www.cliki.net/chanl 11:08:15 attila_lendvai: why N worker threads instead of 1? 11:08:23 Adlai: there's also cl-muproc which is older but which I'm currently evaluating 11:09:00 lukego, cpu cores and not all the blocking code is call/cc based, so sometimes the worker threads go to sleep (e.g. database connections) 11:09:04 hi guys 11:09:17 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-30-82-253-164-227.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:25 I am currently trying to get along with cl-who 11:09:45 but not that successful 11:09:50 attila_lendvai: yeah being able to make blocking I/O operations are a real luxury. 11:11:39 anyone here using cl-who? 11:12:53 attila_lendvai: I wonder if I'm more conservative than everyone else. I would be tempted to use one Lisp process per CPU core (w/ some load balancer e.g. haproxy) and only one worker thread running at a time ("big global lock" that is released on I/O) 11:13:26 attila_lendvai: for me the idea of every SETF being a potential race condition is imponderable :) 11:13:33 I have for example the problem that '(who:htm (:em "repl: " (write-to-string replies)))' will produce "repl: ", aka not evaluate the way it should. 11:13:34 Given the CL memory model, that's a reasonable choice. 11:13:55 is there something that I am getting wrong or is who just unusable by design? 11:13:57 lukego, that will waste quite a bit of memory, i guess even with forking 11:14:28 one man's waste is another man's use :) 11:15:23 wakeup: you're getting it wrong. 11:15:45 wakeup: you should write to the html-output stream, or tell cl-who that the form produces a string, not writes one. 11:15:47 Xach: thank god! 11:16:08 wakeup: read the evaluation rules carefully...it's not what most people expect, but it *is* fairly explicitly explained. 11:16:16 attila_lendvai: but if you're not actually spending your nights firefighting threading bugs then you probably have a good solution already :) 11:16:20 lukego, your model could work if we had finished serializable sessions, but that's not really priority for any of our projects (no failover is needed) 11:16:54 how come serializable sessions would be needed? I meant a load-balancer that respects session-affinity (e.g. balances on a cookie-hash) 11:18:21 lukego, 1 server process eats minimum 200 MBytes 11:18:39 lukego, then you effectively serialize requests coming from different clients... we need to deal with 500+ req/sec... that wouldn't work serially 11:19:00 ...or at least we want to be able to 11:19:30 serialize only the CPU-heavy parts. so yes it would suck if you sometimes spend a long time generating a page. 11:19:48 it could impact latency but not throughput, as I see it 11:20:10 bittin| [i=bittin@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-kvxqylezndmylojq] has joined #lisp 11:20:55 levente_meszaros: even if you couldn't share a bunch of that (jsnell suggested sbcl is not bad at sharing pages between processes), the $ price of 200MB overhead per CPU core doesn't seem outside consideration. 11:21:35 but I don't want to labour the point. if threads aren't a problem for you then there is no need to "solve" them with added overhead 11:21:52 you are just braver than me :) 11:22:02 minion, memo for fe[nl]ix: okay, I tried sionescu-hemlock, which seems have been run through filter-branch. But according to diff it has the exact same files, and tabs are still there. So what has changed? 11:22:03 Remembered. I'll tell fe[nl]ix when he/she/it next speaks. 11:22:45 -!- besiria [n=user@pantou.lib.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:22:49 spoofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 11:27:31 is sbcl supposed to run under user-mode-linux? I'm getting errors reminicent of what happens when I strace it (Unhandled memory fault at #x7FFFF4F9E000) 11:27:36 mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 11:34:51 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 11:35:27 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:36:53 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 11:38:49 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:39:59 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-11-234.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:43:28 -!- Axius [n=oijhif@92.82.64.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:49:57 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 11:50:06 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:50:15 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-2-205.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:53:44 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-125-173.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 11:53:48 loop question: can I conditionally loop from 1 to n if n is >0? 11:54:32 yes 11:54:37 how? 11:54:48 (loop for i from 1 to n ...) 11:55:03 heh 11:55:27 nah I mean like this: when (> n 0) for i from 1 to n 11:55:58 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 11:56:09 (when (> n 0) (loop for i from 1 to n ...)) 11:56:17 bill` [n=bill@i.want.to.nukeafrica.org] has joined #lisp 11:56:17 if n is smaller than 1 the loop form will just return 11:56:22 n is like a limit, it should loop at most n times, but infinite if if n=0 11:57:33 crod [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has joined #lisp 11:57:46 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:57:50 Hun: I have another 'for item in list' in the loop 11:58:51 what are you trying to do 11:58:58 for i from i for item in list while (/= i n) ... 11:59:25 loop over a list, at most n items, but if n is <1, infinitely 11:59:49 then you have two loops 12:00:19 wakeup: is this special meaning of n imposed on you, or can you separate these two things? 12:00:22 oh, items, not times ;) 12:00:40 what do you mean "infinitely", don't you mean until the end of the list? 12:00:44 yes 12:00:46 I do 12:01:52 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:56 (loop for i from 1 for item in list while (or (= n 0) (= i n)) ...) 12:02:32 (flet ((loop-in-list () (loop for i in list do ...))) (if (< n 1) (loop (loop-in-list)) (loop repeat n do (loop-in-list)))) 12:03:27 loop with limit = (if (plusp n) n (length list)) for i below limit for item in list do... [not tested, obnov] 12:04:05 that (= i n) should be (< i n) btw 12:04:53 adeht: works, thank you 12:05:56 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 12:06:31 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:07:40 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 12:11:08 lukego: wrt. to the threads/process stuff above: if you use a lot of processes you would be forced into some heavy IPC, say SYSV or manage state in some database, no? ie, you would miss sharing objects easily? 12:13:21 maybe so 12:13:37 hypno: yes. conversely, if you've got all (or most of) your state in a database already, as is very common for webapps, the advantages of processes over threads easily outweigh the disadvantages. 12:13:50 lichtblau: ah, yes. 12:14:05 CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.8.227] has joined #lisp 12:15:07 even further, i developed a network server in java a few years back and used multiple java processes since all sort of threading bugs got in. but threading in common lisp has been way better (well easier) for me, except a few irritating cases. 12:20:24 -!- crod [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:24:24 deathdefineslif [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 12:24:24 -!- billitch [n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:24:34 -!- deathdefineslif is now known as sayyestolife 12:25:03 billitch [n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:46 http://common-lisp.net/project/rfc2388/ <- can anyone tell me what and is supposed to be exchanged with? 12:36:46 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:37:51 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-139-221-245.range86-139.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:39:32 fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 12:39:36 wakeup: for instance the value in the Content-Type field of the HTTP header and the content itself 12:40:01 -!- madsy is now known as Madsy 12:40:55 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 12:41:22 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:44:02 yCrazyEdd [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 12:44:40 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:44:50 -!- yCrazyEdd is now known as CrazyEddy 12:46:37 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:48:34 adeht: Content-Type field of the HTTP header 12:48:41 sry but 12:48:55 this does not really make sens eto me 12:49:40 why? 12:50:08 read this: http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616.html 12:51:24 right, brb. 12:52:45 :> 12:53:14 couldnt they just give a simple example as how to parse a html-input -.- 12:53:24 this has nothing to do with HTML 12:53:37 potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f6677ae-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 12:53:39 yeah I know 12:55:04 are you using that library alone? 12:55:26 I planned on combining with base64 12:55:50 most lisp server libraries have it (probably with some enhancements) 12:55:53 http://www.cliki.net/base64 12:56:12 I just wanna write a quite simple cgi script 12:56:16 with my lighttpdy 12:56:27 wakeup: you would use your decoding after you get the content 12:56:44 jdz: yeah thats what I thought 12:57:08 btw, why the f- would anyone use base64 in a netwrok? 12:57:48 as far as I understood it makes everything like 36% (or similar) bigger 12:58:07 osaunders [n=osaunder@89.242.213.116] has joined #lisp 12:58:19 Does anybody know of a way of writing C using sexp? 12:58:31 Let's think about alphanumeric character sets ... 12:58:32 and having it translated back into standard C source code. 12:59:15 osaunders: thinlisp might work 12:59:23 anyone interested in having GNU CLISP running on Nokia N900 or linux-armel in general? I did some work in that direction involving fixing the old calling convention and other quirks, see here http://depni.sinp.msu.ru/~ivan_iv/clisp-fremantle-patch.diff (for clisp 2.48) 12:59:44 currently trying to get ffcall to work 13:00:01 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:00:07 otherwise it works, can use slime 13:01:05 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 13:01:06 osaunders: I was asking that the other week :-) like a Linj for C. but didn't find an answer. (Thinlisp is interesting but not generating readable code) 13:01:07 jdz: Sounds like it's an abstraction of C. 13:01:42 lukego: Hm. 13:01:47 Sounds like there's a demand here. 13:01:59 well, maybe. 13:02:02 osaunders: there's sexpc which is a sexp-as-input pretty-printer of C 13:02:24 scexpc nowadays. 13:02:58 Uh sexpc is a really bad search term. 13:02:59 Try cliki.net 13:02:59 minion: sexpc 13:02:59 sexpc: See scexp. http://www.cliki.net/sexpc 13:02:59 didn't pjb have some sexp syntax for C 13:03:01 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:03:14 Ah ha! http://www.unmutual.info/software/scexp/ 13:03:37 scexp doesn't look all that bad, actually. 13:03:38 osaunders: there's also bitc 13:03:49 osaunders: and prescheme 13:04:11 tcr: Thanks, you're super useful! 13:04:12 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-146-113.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:04:37 -!- splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-qwdgvganvfmxclgk] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 13:04:45 bitc seemed promising but the author ceased working on it 13:05:13 report back any experience with whatever you try to actually use -- I'd like to hear about it 13:07:27 billitch_ [n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:27 -!- billitch [n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:07:28 -!- billitch_ is now known as billitch 13:07:56 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 13:09:10 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:09:58 tcr: Jonathan Shapiro now works for Microsoft. 13:10:24 confusingly enough there are two Jonathan Shapiro's in circulation. I suspect it's the other one who works for MS. 13:10:49 lukego: I'm afraid it is the one of Bit-C and CoyotOS fame. 13:11:02 ah 13:11:10 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:37 You'll see when you type jonathan shapiro coyotos microsoft in Google. 13:12:01 splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-yvnhkqdzwhqwrovb] has joined #lisp 13:12:15 yeah, I hadn't made the bit-c connection. in my contextual defense I think that "jonathan shapiro common lisp" turns up the other one 13:12:37 or maybe I'm just totally wrong :) 13:12:54 in fact I am :) I'm mixing up Carl Shapiro. 13:13:04 billstclai [n=billstcl@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 13:13:30 -!- ski [n=slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:13:58 why isnt there a cgi lib without a without a webserver included :( 13:14:08 wakeup: there is. 13:14:14 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:14:19 http://www.thangorodrim.de/software/lisp-cgi-utils/ is one. 13:14:30 btw it seems like sbcl _does_ work in user-mode-linux. but somehow an error during slime startup was causing a segfault 13:14:30 -!- billstclai is now known as billstclair 13:14:45 lukego: i had a problem with slime startup from a saved image 13:14:55 lukego: in "real" linux. 13:15:01 Xach: it does not support multipart/form-data 13:15:05 did you save swank in your core? 13:15:22 -!- billstclair is now known as wws 13:15:30 Jabberwockey [n=jens@193.174.12.194] has joined #lisp 13:15:31 ;; TODO until Swank is fixed, see https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/444427 13:15:32 #+sbcl (push (lambda () (setf swank::*log-output* nil) (swank::init-log-output)) sb-ext:*init-hooks*) 13:15:37 It seems that Microsoft is busy acquiring security people. The guy who created a GCC stack protector patch was hired by MS too. 13:15:37 Xach: yes. it's 'clbuild preloaded'. works okay now 13:15:38 wakeup: http://common-lisp.net/project/rfc2388/ maybe 13:15:49 lukego, that's a long standing bug in swank 13:15:50 attila_lendvai: aha! yes I worked raound with *swank-debug-p* nil 13:16:08 wakeup: What are you going to use for the web server part? 13:16:19 Xach: yep, thats what I am currently at, but I cant figure out how to use it properly due to non-existant documentation 13:16:23 Xach: lighttpd 13:16:40 sadiquea1 [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 13:16:49 wakeup: Have you considered fastcgi? 13:17:03 wakeup: Oh. If I were you, I'd just use lighttpd as a proxy to hunchentoot. 13:17:13 *Xach* does that with nginx for his lisp websites, works swimmingly 13:17:15 That works fine too. 13:17:16 -!- konr` [n=user@189.96.93.169] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:17:23 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:17:30 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-115-226.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 13:17:38 wakeup: it's easy. you use PARSE-MIME to parse posted content. but that function needs to know the boundary, and to find it out you can use PARSE_HEADER function. 13:17:55 wakeup: Are you using Debian by any chance? 13:18:01 slackware 13:18:06 Ok. 13:18:24 quick question: is it a better idea to reuse existing systems or rewrite things from scratch? 13:18:58 lukego: That depends on the existing systems, doesn't it? 13:19:11 ski [n=slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:19:29 -!- sadiquea1 [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit [Client Quit] 13:19:34 tmh` [n=user@d4-223.rt-bras.pell.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:38 It also depends on your goals. 13:19:43 -!- fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit ["Leaving..."] 13:20:33 lukego: yes, definitely (in the spirit of your question) 13:20:33 c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has joined #lisp 13:20:38 jdz: what does parse-mime return, and what do I have to supply as argument to parse-header? 13:21:47 lukego: a wise man once said: Do The Simplest Thing That Could Possibly Work 13:22:30 libraries written by third parties for the needs of hypothetical users are seldom the simplest possible thing 13:22:34 Xach: sounds interesting, will check out 13:22:50 (the hypothetical needs of hypothetical users) 13:24:08 what's the simplest way to run headless (no prompt) sbcl? 13:24:30 lukego: in the background, too, or just no REPL? 13:24:43 lukego: if the latter, a custom toplevel-init in s-l-a-d is one option. 13:24:43 background 13:24:54 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-45-148.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:24:58 ah. for that i use screen and don't have a better idea at the moment. 13:25:16 this is in an init.d-like script 13:25:26 What about cl-launch? 13:25:49 lukego: i use screen -d -m for that :) 13:26:02 with a custom screenrc that starts the lisp app in one of the screens 13:26:09 wakeup: parse-header wants a HTTP request header. you will want to use the Content-Type header, most probably 13:26:51 wakeup: parse-mime returns a list of mime entities (as written in the function documentation) 13:29:49 Xach: screen doesn't seem to work in my uml (no PTYs). I didn't run any normal init, it's just a linux kernel booting into bash 13:30:21 ah. pity. 13:31:11 lukego: boot it into sbcl :) 13:32:00 There are no PTYs in UML??? 13:32:16 pbusser: I think I'm just skipping the code that would initialize them by not calling init 13:32:30 jdz: I want a shell for troubleshooting though 13:32:30 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:32:53 lukego: I see. 13:33:26 -!- tmh [n=user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:34:39 lukego: what is it that you want that is not given by --script option? 13:34:39 -!- ski [n=slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Operation timed out] 13:35:06 SBCL as init works. 13:35:06 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-115-226.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:35:17 lukego, this is what we use: http://dwim.hu/file/hu.dwim.home/etc/rc.d-script 13:35:40 attila_lendvai: Is dwim.hu up again? 13:35:41 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f756811.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:58 pbusser, mostly. darcsweb/gitweb is broken 13:36:07 lukego: um, fork and use a telnet or swank repl on localhost? 13:36:29 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:36:52 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 13:37:52 jdz: I don't see any signs of a --script option to sbcl? 13:38:12 attila_lendvai: can I see server-loop.sh? 13:38:21 lukego, darcs get http://dwim.hu/darcs/hu.dwim.build also has some useful copy/paste material for you 13:38:47 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-52-184.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:38:47 lukego, http://dwim.hu/file/hu.dwim.home/bin/server-loop.sh 13:38:56 lukego: The (Debian) man page describes --script though. 13:38:57 lukego: manpage for sbcl says "Implies --no-sysinit --no-userinit --disable-debugger --end-toplevel-options" for me 13:39:09 i have sbcl compiled from sources, though 13:39:20 1.0.31.32 13:39:28 lukego, I would suggest http://dwim.hu/project/hu.dwim.home and switch to content tab 13:39:36 if you don't want to darcs get :) 13:42:10 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:44:22 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-115-226.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 13:44:57 ski [n=slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:45:16 is this error just being mean? "Multiple expressions in --eval option:" -- I could use a little implicit-progn dwim :) 13:45:30 lukego: you can use multiple --eval options 13:45:30 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:46:05 I know. but wouldn't it be just as easy to do what the user wants as to signal an error? 13:46:45 lukego: who knows. maybe you misplaced a paren? :) 13:46:46 (you can cancel Xophe's "hurray" from yesterday. nobody wants me as a user :) 13:47:14 levente_meszaros, I think I just encountered a bug in dwim.hu 13:47:40 Adlai, oops, we have no bug reporting tool yet... ;-) 13:47:52 so I did get sbcl running in the background, but the way in which I did it is so disgusting as to be unmentionable in this forum. :) 13:48:46 wbraun [n=wolfgang@vpn2858.extern.uni-tuebingen.de] has joined #lisp 13:48:48 I was looking at partial-eval's test suite, through the Project -> Content section, and in the last two lines of the integer-power.lisp file, there's a bunch of: The value # is not of type (OR (VECTOR CHARACTER) (VECTOR NIL) BASE-STRING PATHNAME FILE-STREAM). 13:48:49 Adlai, (un)fortunately we also have projects which pay, so less time to work on dwim.hu 13:49:09 -!- wbraun [n=wolfgang@vpn2858.extern.uni-tuebingen.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:50:39 hmm, it seems like there are issues with uninterned symbols there 13:51:09 can you recreate the bug? 13:51:23 qeb`away [i=finnrobi@lynx.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 13:51:29 yes 13:51:35 the missing part is: '(* base (let* ((#:g3215 (* base base)) (#:g3214 (* base #:g3215))) (* #:g3214 #:g3214))) 13:52:50 it's actually quite fun to be without 'init'. good to write things like 'ifconfig lo 127.0.0.1 up' :) 13:54:26 Adlai: have you seen the comments I made on the two closed reports? I can't open them up again myself (I think) and I don't think you're still notified if the have been closed before 13:54:39 3pm and finally ticked off the first "15 minute job" TODO item for today. :) 13:56:05 lispm [n=joswig@e177144102.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:56:16 *tic* high fives lukego 13:56:18 lukego: you don't miss the two dozen oddly named daemons doing god-knows-what and scribbling all over your /etc ? 13:56:56 sounds lonely. 13:57:07 hefner, they should be rewritten in lisp, to scribble all over (symbol-plist 'etc) ! 13:57:54 madnificent, which ones? sykopomp said that he wanted to look at and think more about the one about object creation and reuse, and I don't know what the second one is. 13:58:33 Adlai: sec, I'll search them. I was notified about them because they are mine :) 13:58:35 I guess I can move it back to shepherdb and assign it to him, though. 13:58:49 can't you deassign it? 13:58:55 hefner: ok it's bubbling over. I just added --eval '(loop (sleep 1))' after starting swank, so sbcl wouldn't boot far enough to freak out about not having a console 13:59:09 heh 13:59:17 madnificent, DEassign? 13:59:34 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:46 Adlai: unassign, I didn't type deassign, it was Xach who used his ultimate mind power to change the bits sent over the wire! 14:00:30 just let it dangle around until shepherdb is in a stage in which it can be concerned with speed. The way it is without that, couchdb will likely not be the bottleneck 14:02:43 -!- FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:03:00 Adlai: the other was to rename make to be make-object, as CLOS uses make-instance 14:03:16 so that was just food for thought 14:04:55 madnificent, correct me if I'm wrong: your idea in issue #50 is basically to have an iteration construct where the object passed to each iteration would be dynamic-extent, allowing the iteration construct to just reinitialize the same object behind the scenes? 14:07:04 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-90-162.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 14:08:35 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:08:54 it needs more thought because the returned objects may not have much in common in any case. However, if you'd like to have a fast system, then the time to fetch an object should go down a lot. You could make it faster in more than one way though 14:09:11 Adlai: follow up in sykosomatic is likely more appropriate 14:09:17 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.133] has quit ["so long.."] 14:09:24 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:09:44 TDT [n=dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 14:11:19 -!- smackarang [n=user@91.190.137.236] has left #lisp 14:12:03 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.8.227] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:14:20 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 14:14:45 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:15:42 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-90-162.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:16:38 -!- ryepup1 [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 14:18:38 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:19:22 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:21:15 carlocci 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[n=bdowning@2001:470:1f11:72a:230:65ff:fe8c:423a] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:43:48 opt9 [n=user@59.7.206.87] has joined #lisp 14:43:58 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-117-170.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:48:36 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:42 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Boot me gently"] 14:49:27 td123 [n=tom@adsl-76-239-29-37.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:44 ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:50:01 anyone know if I can get the ansii spec sheet for lisp for free? 14:50:06 ansi 14:50:16 and where? 14:50:23 "spec sheet" is an understatement 14:50:36 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:37 A1024? 14:50:48 1000+ pages 14:51:45 i'm sorry the idea at the end of http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3239756833803284@naggum.no.html never came to fruition. 14:51:49 Adlai: I'm sorry, I didn't know what I should call it then 14:51:58 here is am online version http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/common-lisp.html 14:52:42 td123, we usually call it "the hyperspec", because the most readily browsable version of it is the hypertext pages that lispm just linked to. 14:52:55 you can also download it free for personal use from that page 14:53:24 ah ok 14:53:27 Adlai: ty 14:54:05 thoolihan [n=thooliha@72.240.63.121] has joined #lisp 14:54:25 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-180.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:54:39 there is also a 'Quickreference': http://clqr.berlios.de/ 14:54:42 -!- thoolihan [n=thooliha@72.240.63.121] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:54:57 thoolihan [n=thooliha@72.240.63.121] has joined #lisp 14:55:55 -!- thoolihan [n=thooliha@72.240.63.121] has left #lisp 14:56:46 thanks 14:59:03 -!- somecodehere [n=ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:03:08 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:04:12 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@83.240.225.146] has joined #lisp 15:05:56 Xach: ah, yeah. i even asked about that one, but got no reply. :( i guess the real problem is the high upfront costs. and if it is supposed to be leather bounded with high-quality paper, etc even more so. 15:07:26 5-10k was at least required to even start thinking about printing my bachelor thesis, which of course is of comparitvely bad quality. 15:08:15 hmm 15:08:45 *Xach* will file it away for "how to spend wigflip under the Xof threshold" 15:09:15 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:34 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 15:11:23 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-139-221-245.range86-139.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 15:12:06 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:56 konr [n=user@187.88.105.40] has joined #lisp 15:13:43 herbieB_ [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined 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out)] 15:23:49 -!- keltor|sleep is now known as keltor 15:29:32 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:30:32 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 15:30:50 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:31:37 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:31:59 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:42 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 15:33:03 fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 15:33:13 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:47 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 15:35:39 -!- m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 15:36:58 -!- td123 [n=tom@adsl-76-239-29-37.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 15:38:54 prxq [n=mommer@g228001152.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:39:04 hi 15:40:04 hi prxq 15:41:59 I have an external gnuplot with which I communicate. I do that via sbcl's run-program. Is there some package providing this functionality (from run-program) in a portable way? 15:42:02 hi Xach 15:42:06 SandGorgon_ [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:24 -!- SandGorgon_ [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 15:42:35 minion: tell prxq about trivial-shell 15:42:35 prxq: look at trivial-shell: Trivial shell is a simple platform independent interface to the underlying Operating System. http://www.cliki.net/trivial-shell 15:42:44 SandGorgon_ [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:35 ryepup: thanks :-) 15:43:48 -!- lusory [n=bart@bb119-74-198-237.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:43:53 unicode [n=user@95.214.27.242] has joined #lisp 15:44:27 prxq: I've only used it under sbcl/linux, hopefully it works as advertised 15:45:02 and I'll find out when I need to run the same code under allegro/linux 15:45:20 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:46:16 ryepup: well, run-program actually returns an object with streams and stuff, so one can really interact with it programatically. Does trivial-shell do that too? The docs' html are broken. 15:47:50 -!- fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit ["Leaving..."] 15:49:09 lusory [n=bart@bb119-74-197-254.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:50:49 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-146-113.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:50:56 Sumpen [n=Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:52:34 prxq: Kinda, check the code. shell-command accepts an input (stream, string, or pathname), and returns values output-string error-string and error-code 15:53:15 -!- tmh` [n=user@d4-223.rt-bras.pell.centurytel.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:54:30 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:54:51 is it possible, in SBCL, to recover from stack overflow? 15:55:28 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:13 a stack overflow? you mean as in some sort of lisp kernel crash? 15:56:44 hypno: that's when you play with recursion too much 15:57:06 nowhere_man: normally you get an error and iirc you can recover from it. 15:57:19 nowhere_man: just try it :-) 15:57:25 "with your fingers crossed" 15:58:07 thoolihan [n=thooliha@72.240.63.121] has joined #lisp 15:58:30 but it's usually better not to encounter stack overflow 15:59:11 well, there is the normal system debugger (which is all safe and nice and great) and then there is the lisp kernel debugger. the later you should never have to enter and the former is harmless and is an aid for your development. 15:59:30 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 15:59:54 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-139-221-245.range86-139.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:00:12 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99.58.1.192] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:00:40 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:01:30 slime and the latest ecl don't seem to get along too well... 16:01:47 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:01:50 prxq: what problems do you have? 16:01:52 prxq: You have to build ecl with --enable-unicode for some reason 16:02:23 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:02:38 Has anyone written a clos metaclass so you can use :synchronized t on slots, and make writers grab for an internal mutex? Is it a bad idea? 16:03:12 stassats: I had a package error and the debugger dialog window was scrambled and did not work. I'm updating slime to see if that helps 16:03:22 tcr: interesting idea 16:04:38 sounds like locking on the wrong level to me 16:04:58 hm, now when I do M-x slime, nothing happens, but I get in the minibuffer 'inferior-lisp not running' 16:05:26 addled1 [n=addled@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:22 -!- thoolihan [n=thooliha@72.240.63.121] has left #lisp 16:06:25 jsnell: What's the right level? 16:07:20 ok, it works now. No idea why, though 16:08:05 tcr: i've had the same idea, and while i think it is a good idea, i'm somewhat more inclined to use an internal mailbox system to deal with transactions across thread boundaries. 16:08:45 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:51 if you want all operations on an object to work on some consistent state, both the readers and writers should be locking. and additionally the locking should happen around some application-specific critical section, not at the low level of writing a single slot 16:09:12 simple example: (push 'foo (foos-of obj)) 16:09:18 the readers too? 16:10:08 automatically locking a single reader is of course useless. but the point is that you generally want some locking around a group of operations that includes multiple reads/writes 16:10:44 for example that push is a (setf (foos-of obj) (cons 'foo (foos-of obj))) 16:10:47 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177144102.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:11:08 yeah 16:11:12 obviously for this to be safe the locking must be around the setf, not around the reader or the writer 16:11:45 hm... interrupt-lisp-process doesn't work with ecl here. 16:12:11 well, that idea was more to address the problem that when an object contains a slot named "lock", I guess you're inclined to just try to grab onto it without really knowing what it's all used for 16:13:13 or rather: I'm looking for a good way to organize a class around possibly multiple locks 16:13:47 I guess I don't see what the lock around a single writer would buy 16:14:05 certainly nothing when default accessors are being used 16:15:11 postamar [n=postamar@let10-doqu2.univ-avignon.fr] has joined #lisp 16:15:42 prxq: what's interrupt-lisp-process? 16:15:59 stassats: c-c c-c in slime. 16:16:18 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:16:35 -!- postamar [n=postamar@let10-doqu2.univ-avignon.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 16:18:29 stassats: it hangs, no idea why, and I can't seem to be able to interrupt it. 16:18:43 the same code works in sbcl 16:19:07 prxq: try to send it a SIGINT... otoh that's also what slime does 16:19:51 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:20:06 sending works, by the output in *inferior-lisp*, ECL doesn't like it for some reason 16:20:27 is the x86-64 port of ccl official or not? 16:20:47 froydnj: Definitely official. 16:21:04 it's even more mature than x86 16:21:06 stassats: I once worked on :spawn for ecl, and the implementation is in swank-ecl just commented out 16:21:15 somebody needs to get the wiki in shape and/or build official packages for it, then 16:21:28 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 16:21:55 stassats: didn't work for me, iirc. the repl didn't show up. Perhaps you can try it with the version in cvs 16:22:12 since the newest release for x86-64 looks to be ~1.2 16:22:21 there is no official packages? i'd guess x86 includes both (that's how it's in SVN) 16:22:40 oh no the stuff in swank-ecl.lisp is bitrotted 16:22:58 froydnj: Yeah, both 32 and 64 are in the same package. 16:23:05 froydnj: It's up to date 16:23:16 sellout: oh. that's good to know 16:23:37 right, it sends it to ecl, and ecl breaks, but slime does not handle that 16:23:49 I presume one has to activate an ecl compat mode somewhere 16:23:56 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:24:01 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:24:11 ecl compat mode? what's that? 16:24:20 froydnj: Packages are all listed on the front page of the wiki: http://trac.clozure.com/ccl#GettingClozureCL 16:24:56 sellout: right. my point is that it's not obvious the x86 one is good for x86-64 as well 16:24:56 stassats: something to make slime and ecl compatible 16:25:07 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:25:08 i think it should be mentioned that packages contain both 32-bit and 64-bit version 16:25:26 prxq: I'm afraid there's just no active slime-ecl hacker 16:25:27 Yeah, I'll update it ... 16:25:37 prxq: well, you can use ECL, that means they're compatible 16:25:49 stassats: fsvo using, right 16:26:35 sellout: while I have a ccl expert... ;) do you know if there's a CCL equivalent to sbcl's WITH-ARRAY-DATA--used to get at the underlying simple-array for a non-simple array? 16:26:37 tcr: or not enough users 16:26:39 as is it is not usable. 16:27:08 froydnj: I don't think I really fall into that category ... you might ask on #ccl 16:27:31 sellout: ok. thanks! 16:27:39 5:30pm and now crossed the second "15 minute" TODO item off my list. kernel bug, fixed with an upgrade. how very satisfying ... 16:28:12 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d818954.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:28:27 prxq: hefner has been using it, with some despair too, but not as much despair as you seem to have 16:28:41 prxq: I'm building an up-to-date version of ecl from git right now 16:28:43 lukego: blistering barnacles you're fast! i've yet to start with my damn report and it's 17:30 pm here too. :) 16:28:49 tcr: actually, I haven't gotten that far :-) 16:28:58 i mean, no despair yet 16:29:38 wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d818954.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:40 hey 16:29:58 prxq: I see that ECL seems to have serve-event, too, so there's hope for it to use a better communication-style (at the moment it uses some variant of busy-looping) 16:30:30 lukego: that puts you three to-do's ahead of me for the day (; 16:31:10 anyone know if clisp's fastcgi mod implements multipart/form-data well? 16:31:17 tcr: it seems for now I can scratch my ecl itch using the venerable inferior-lisp mode 16:31:20 -!- SandGorgon_ [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:31:26 not a long-term solution, though 16:31:43 the problem with interrupts is that it doesn't see bindings for some reason 16:31:48 splittist: I think that having an appointment to drink beer in the evening is an excellent "let's make short work of this list" motivator :) 16:32:20 splittist: are you in CH btw? 16:32:55 lukego: yep. GB next Wed/Thu, perhaps somewhere in the ME the week after, but generally CH. 16:33:41 yesterday I was talking to a guy who's about to make a 5 week trip around AU & NZ. sun. mango season. I am actually jealous. 16:34:55 It's flood and heatwave season in oz 16:35:00 It's not also mango season in Switzerland? 16:35:14 Is mango season later in the winter? 16:35:24 It's summer 16:36:25 demmeln [n=Adium@138.246.18.162] has joined #lisp 16:36:36 timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:37:10 Xach: yes - the mountain-dwelling Swiss mangos have to wait for the snow to clear from the high passes to get to town. 16:37:27 I saw a mango in the supermarket the other day. US$6. from thailand, where they are littering the streets, and righly so since they are pretty plain mangos compared with AU ! 16:37:54 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@138.246.18.162] has left #lisp 16:38:07 very funny to see something worth so little as a Thai mango sitting individually-packaged in Switzerland :) 16:38:13 My father has 40 mango trees he doesn't bother tending. At (grade) school my school's trees were mango trees, mangoes were squishy crud that we stepped in when we played. 16:39:47 In NE Australia in summer, a mango isn't something you pay for, it's something you try to avoid stepping in or have fall on your car. 16:40:48 -!- Dodek [i=dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:40:59 I'm tormented just thinking about it 16:40:59 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:41:09 Modius: I thought those were wombats... 16:41:34 lukego: worth is relative, but I guess you know as much :-) 16:41:54 splittist: I hear lately it's new-zealanders 16:42:02 or is the idea of not being selling mangos at 6$ each tormenting you 16:42:37 the idea of whole trays of bowen mangos, the likes of which Switzerland has never seen, being gobbled up by millions of happy bastards in australia 16:43:04 oh well I do have a jar of vegemite, which is almost as good I suppose. (finished the timtams) 16:43:09 I actually hate the things, even the smell. To me they're squishy dogs**t that falls from above. 16:43:27 *prxq* hugs old inferior-lisp mode 16:43:30 retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has joined #lisp 16:43:32 you're just saying that to make me feel better 16:45:39 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:49 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 16:46:48 hi. as i am studying common lisp, i'm noticing there are a lot of common utilities like flatten, when-bind, mklist, mappend, compose, et cetera, et cetera. is there a standard package of these utilities that people commonly use, or do they usually just put them into every project? 16:48:16 retroj: both! 16:48:51 what existing package(s) should i look for to hopefully save me some copy&paste work? 16:49:04 alexandria? 16:49:31 *lukego* second's retroj's questions 16:49:42 *lukego* ducks for the thwap.. 16:49:51 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:50:05 lukego: timor answered it ;) 16:50:09 I don't think I've ever used flatten, when-bind, mklist or mappend 16:50:10 great, thanks! 16:50:13 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:50:31 but alexandria doesnt contain all of these i think 16:50:53 timor: No, but it contains the useful bits. 16:50:57 :) 16:51:14 oh I like this clbuild preloaded business :-) I just do `C-C C-d p alexandria RET' and there it all is :) 16:52:23 -!- retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:52:52 retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has joined #lisp 16:53:30 alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:54:15 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:54:55 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 16:57:03 anyone here has experience with using threads in ecl? 16:57:34 i tried using them bordeaux-threads, but join-thread is not implemented 16:58:46 i've used it, yes with 9.0.8i or somesuch. 16:58:47 so I am wondering how threads are supposed to be used in ecl 16:59:14 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-19-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:32 i get as far as running a function in another thread, but no idea how to obtain its return value 16:59:44 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:59:47 i use the api shipped with the implementation tho. i generally dislike 3d-party low-level "abstractions" which ime always fail to deliver in their supposed portability. 16:59:53 prxq: set up your own lock and variable...? 16:59:55 Suppose I have a class that I don't intend to create instances of (directly). Is there a standard idiom to make it uninstantiable? 17:00:10 E.g. signalling an error from initialize-instance or some such? 17:00:17 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.241.84] has joined #lisp 17:00:21 gigamonkey: rather make-instance? 17:00:58 if you signal an error from i-i then e.g. an :around method might get called with the instance already created but not yet initialzied...dunno if that matters 17:01:02 or perhaps allocate-instance? 17:02:04 (of course, that's not the only way to get an instance: there's also change-class) 17:02:24 josemanuel [n=josemanu@126.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:03:02 Right. I'm mostly just trying to head off accidentally doing a (make-instance 'abstract-superclass) when I meant to do (make-instance 'concrete-subclass) 17:03:06 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.71.134] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:03:09 sensible 17:03:44 gigamonkey: call it abstract-foo? 17:04:29 hypno: i see 17:04:38 call it -mixin? 17:04:58 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:20 Or just remember not to instantiate it. ;-) 17:05:31 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.71.134] has joined #lisp 17:06:49 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@126.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 17:06:58 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:07:08 balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 17:07:28 btw who made SBCL do the right thing with defstruct slots having default values different than their declared type? that is nice 17:07:57 what does it do? 17:08:17 gives you a runtime type error if you create it without supplying a valid value. 17:08:44 so you can say e.g. (myslot nil :type number) if really it should be a number but you have no sensible default to give 17:09:22 -!- gibsonf1 [n=user@c-76-126-33-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:09:47 lukego: Don't you get nasty warnings at compile-time for that? 17:10:06 lukego: isn't that what clhs says? 17:10:12 lukego: really, you're supposed to put in a (alexandria:required-argument) as initform (or (sb-int:missing-arg)) 17:10:30 lukego: that is, a function with return-type of NIL 17:10:46 ERROR? 17:10:48 I don't get a nasty warning. 17:10:51 stassats`: I suspect clhs says "consequences undefined" 17:11:04 (required-argument) is too many characters imho. 17:11:09 always annoyed me in CMUCL. 17:11:54 "The slot-initform is not evaluated unless it is needed in the creation of a particular structure instance. If it is never needed, there can be no type-mismatch error, even if the type of the slot is specified; no warning should be issued in this case." 17:12:39 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@93-80-213-22.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 17:12:40 lukego: Bah define a global symbol-macro :-) 17:12:51 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.249.123] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:12:57 lukego, or use completion... :) 17:13:20 I suppose the downside is that SBCL won't be checking for mistakes in your default values. but I can live with that 17:14:02 attila_lendvai: then you end up with CLOS/Java code where >50% of characters are boilerplate :) 17:14:32 (count nil :type integer) vs. (count (alexandria:required-argument) :type integer) 17:14:36 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:14:38 significant difference imho 17:14:47 knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has joined #lisp 17:14:48 Do I recollect correctly that implementations differ on what this should return: (loop for i from 0 below 10 finally (return i)) 17:15:22 gigamonkey: cool if a pastebot would let you paste code and show you the result in all impls :) 17:15:37 gigamonkey: Yes, I think so. 17:15:39 there is something woring with the cffi darcs archive 17:15:44 lukego, characters can not be boilerplate, only constructs 17:15:52 the inventory directory does not exsist. 17:16:32 knobo, you have a bogus darcs, it's fixed in a later release (backward compatibility issue) 17:16:50 well, later revision, not sure it's released 17:17:22 attila_lendvai: my comparison is actually unfair since from this afternoon onwards I will always (use-package #:alexandria). so really its just (required-argument) 17:17:45 clbuild does not care about revisions :( 17:18:11 knobo: it cares about the One True Revision - HEAD :-) 17:18:18 lukego: You can add a synonymous (required) in your own code 17:18:22 lukego: that'd be a bit dangerous in an impure language. Though making a sandbox subset shouldn't be terribly hard. 17:18:24 phadthai_ [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:43 lukego: but really, this should have been cared for in the standard because the resulting errors will suck 17:18:50 you mean "clbuild check" doesn't check whether your darcs is new enough for cffi? 17:20:04 hi, if I'm installing packages via asdf-install and choose "2.) Personal installation" can I just remove that packages directory in ~/.sbcl/site and the symlink in ~/.sbcl/systems and it will be fully uninstalled? 17:20:17 package's* 17:20:52 there's asdf-install:uninstall 17:20:53 so, it's my darcs that is to old? 17:21:09 stassats`: the installation failed, should I still use that? 17:21:19 i don't know 17:21:23 ok, thanks 17:21:30 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@188-23-187-25.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:21:56 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:21:59 tcr: yeah that would be quite reasonable. but then I don't have a problem to solve in the first place thanks to sbcl behaviour : 17:22:07 but removing directory and symlinks will work, yes 17:22:50 alright, looks like uninstall did the trick, thanks 17:22:52 tcr: is "everybody" using Alexandria these days? i.e. don't have to think twice about introducing it as a dependency? 17:23:08 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 17:23:13 tcr: in the old days at least it felt like any dependency is a bad dependency 17:24:38 (missing-arg) in swank.lisp is not that displeasing I must admit 17:25:42 *lukego* looks for his todo list. hard to blame this 15 minutes on anything but gasbagging :) 19:10:16 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 19:10:16 19:10:16 -!- names: ccl-logbot rme syamajala svaksha holycow amnesiac maelcoluim snearch_ mrsolo retroj Ralith saikatc soupdragon sayyestolife spilman grouzen kejsaren_ ruediger Dawgmatix gruseom mejja dnolen redline6561 hoeq phadthai_ knobo balooga xinming gigamonkey stassats` alley_cat araujo Adamant timor wakeup mattrepl addled1 Odin- ikki Guthur abeaumont Sumpen lusory prxq Hun madnificent opt9` stepnem cmeow Helheim dcrawford clop bfein tychoish kefka morphling 19:10:16 -!- names: herbieB_ bobrown` konr jleija Kenjin bdowning ryepup billstclair sellout carlocci LiamH kpreid TDT qeb`away ski dlowe lukjad007 legumbre c|mell splittist billitch potatishandlarn CrazyEddy ignas freiksenet bill` blackened` Axioplase_ spoofy bittin| Nshag levente_meszaros rdd daniel dmiles_afk djinni` Edico fiveop varjag seangrove attila_lendvai mishoo_ tcr eno G0SUB pbusser |Soulman| galaxywatcher Madsy Demosthenes coyo lpolzer__ Sukoshi`` 19:10:16 -!- names: Modius pjb Dra`vi sledge keltor srcerer benny Xantoz chiiph lukego ams ASau Raptelan wlr xenosoz2 newfurniturey bipt jsoft adeht TJohn ennen fractali` antifuchs hypno rahul mgr moesenle nasloc__ swilde amaron hicx174 Fufie Adrinael emma lnostdal fgtech s0ber koning_robot skeptical_p smithzv AntiSpamMeta thijso boyscared _3b` sytse retupmoca re-l nuba blast_hardcheese Yamazaki-kun kleppari danderson yahooooo schme partisan rsynnott cmatei mrSpec 19:10:16 -!- names: dfox nowhere_man neaer dto fihi09 Ri-|away whoppix drwho Taggnostr Wraithan spn mathrick ivan4th Holcxjo jamesstanley Intensity UnwashedMeme1 hohum tsuru mornfall prip weirdo frodef foom easyE derefed anekos kencausey gz rey_ cods djm defn erg nicktastic rbancroft Ober egn froydnj mtd Tordek Fade tic Soulman ecraven z0d EwS reb lupine_85 PissedNumlock rotty_ Tristam clog sjbach rullie wasabi___ joast pkhuong franki^ koollman lharc Legoolas 19:10:16 -!- names: Xof foom2 ironChicken p8m zbigniew pragma_ joga peddie guaqua Zhivago pok krappie dostoyevsky scode luis ineiros guenthr rlonstein ``Erik rapacity jsnell johs aking tarbo codemonkeyx bakkdoor Borbus aja cpt_nemo felipe skeptomai kuwabara2 Xach manituuuu BrianRice mle PuffTheMagic tltstc wgl dalkvist tvaalen borism fnordus Pepe_ alexbobp sykopomp xan spacebat_ mikezor ud jyujin lichtblau rootzlevel peterwang Orest^bnc _deepfire Patzy cataska 19:10:16 -!- names: REPLeffect_ ianmcorvidae cupe chii lemoinem housel hdurer l_a_m ve kingdon p_l bunz setheus xristos Ginei_Morioka KatrinaTheLamia specbot Buganini nullman joshe minion yacin DrForr ramus Khisanth j0ni dym guaq_ _3b 19:12:46 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:16:26 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 19:16:26 -!- coyo [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:22:22 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-94-7.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:23:00 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@83.240.225.146] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 19:23:55 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483CB35.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:29 varjagg [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:27:09 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:30:03 raison [n=raison@70.90.182.149] has joined #lisp 19:31:46 -!- raison [n=raison@70.90.182.149] has quit [Client Quit] 19:32:26 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:19 TR2N [i=email@89-180-188-135.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 19:34:33 whokwho [n=camille@med33-1-88-185-248-203.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:08 -!- whokwho [n=camille@med33-1-88-185-248-203.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 19:36:57 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 19:39:52 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 19:40:05 raison [n=raison@70.90.182.149] has joined #lisp 19:40:58 woo hoo, phrase search is in place now. 19:41:40 i'm suddenly stumped for good examples 19:41:49 Xach, thank you for http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html !! 19:42:06 retroj: no problem. i hope it's helpful. 19:42:18 Xach: incredibly helpful 19:42:35 Xach: might put a note in there that you need to load slime-asdf to use ,load-system 19:44:12 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit ["Client Quit"] 19:44:22 message-id search works now too 19:44:35 e.g. http://xach.com/naggum/articles/search?q=<19940811.4128%40naggum.no> 19:45:48 hmm, i guess this is an example 19:46:02 http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/search?q="foderaro+lisp" vs http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/search?q=foderaro+lisp results 19:50:22 fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 19:52:19 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:53:13 I have written a fairly simple "do" loop, and I would like to know how to get it's return value to be that of "chain" 19:53:15 http://paste.lisp.org/display/93399 19:53:31 If I replace "(print chain)" with just "chain" it appears to return nil 19:53:44 but (print chain) prints out the state of the chain as expected each loop 19:53:49 <_3b> clhs do 19:53:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_do.htm 19:53:54 thanks 19:53:54 antoni [n=user@156.pool85-53-21.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 19:53:57 i'll read that 19:55:38 thanks you _3b! 19:55:50 I was putting the result-form in the declaration section instead of the end-test-form section 19:56:02 <_3b> hmm, result-form* ? 19:56:13 yes 19:56:50 -!- fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:59:19 aerique [n=euqirea@rl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:59:31 *_3b* wonders why it allows multiple forms there 19:59:50 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-12307.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 20:00:04 _3b to some finalisation maybe 20:00:10 to/to do 20:00:25 _3b: an implicit progn 20:00:38 <_3b> 'the values returned by the result-forms.' sounds like it would be an implicit VALUES, but doesn't seem to work that way 20:01:03 <_3b> ah, i guess the implicit progn bit avoids that 20:01:22 *_3b* will stay with the 'more primitive' LOOP :p 20:01:25 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:26 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 20:03:04 malsyned [n=malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:51 -!- splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-yvnhkqdzwhqwrovb] has quit ["NLTK doesn't like my corpus ):"] 20:09:08 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.132.120.77] has joined #lisp 20:13:49 -!- reb [n=user@72.14.228.137] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:13:56 reb [n=user@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 20:15:10 If I have a list of two-element lists, should I just use a cons pair instead of the two-element lists? 20:16:18 <_3b> depends on what you want to do with them 20:16:19 jamesstanley: if it makes your life easier, sure. 20:16:19 jamesstanley: if it doesn't, don't. 20:16:22 ok 20:16:23 what is the thing supposed to mean? 20:16:25 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 20:16:25 Xach: It isn't considered poor show or anything to use a list where a cons would do? 20:16:25 tcr: it is a pair of words 20:16:38 What does it represent in a highlevel point of view? 20:16:47 Perhaps you rather want to use a structure, or class? 20:16:52 a link of a markov chain from one word to another 20:17:15 (i'm a complete noob to lisp btw and i know a hash table would be more efficient for the main list) 20:17:15 bdowning_ [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:23 -!- antoni [n=user@156.pool85-53-21.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:17:56 _3b: How strong is your ecl-fu? I need a function which gets an fd and it should return whether that fd is still open, or has been closed. 20:18:09 I don't mind if it's hacky :-) 20:18:29 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:18:31 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:18:53 <_3b> tcr: think you confuse me with someone else... i think i may have compiled it once, possibly even ran it after that, but that is about it 20:19:00 -!- aerique [n=euqirea@rl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 20:19:14 -!- bdowning_ is now known as bdowning 20:19:20 bah 20:21:33 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-90-162.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:22:53 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-226-236.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 20:23:32 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:23:37 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 20:23:52 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A18BE.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:24:03 fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 20:26:30 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-152-108.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:26:31 -!- lukego_ is now known as lukego 20:26:32 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:26:38 tcr: how about using a c function? 20:26:43 anair_84 [n=anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:11 That's what I'm trying but I'm not good at it :-) 20:27:46 -!- retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:29:30 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 20:30:22 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:41 tcr: fdecl seems to be the one 20:30:52 er - fcntl 20:31:56 gonzojive [n=red@c-98-234-48-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:15 tcr: or you can try dup2'ing it on to itself 20:32:21 (i don't know how portable that is though) 20:32:46 tcr: when you need low-level hackery like that, using inline C might be good idea 20:33:06 tcr: also, you can just try to read it and check for an error. (that 20:33:15 's the advice from ##C) 20:33:19 :-) 20:33:38 p_l: Yeah I'm trying to get that to work 20:33:39 what if it's write-only? 20:33:59 ah damn 20:34:29 p_l: I wondere why ECL doesn't come with pre-defined posix bindings? 20:35:34 actually fcntl seems to be the function that does the right thing 20:35:44 i think it is 20:36:02 -!- snearch_ [n=olaf@e179143031.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:36:48 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-89-223-228-98.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 20:37:16 milanj [n=milan@79.101.212.193] has joined #lisp 20:38:52 tmh [n=user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 20:39:26 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 20:39:39 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:40:03 tcr: dunno, but you're welcome to write one ;-) 20:40:15 *p_l* was thinking of writing ECL-specific SWING module 20:41:09 jamesstanley: normally, i'd base the decision on whether to use a cons or a list on whether I plan to (aply #'something to-it) 20:41:24 ok 20:41:41 i've gone with a list now because i'm a newbie 20:41:44 but i'll remember that for next time 20:42:20 clhs dolist 20:42:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_dolist.htm 20:42:23 thank you 20:42:53 GrayGnome` [n=MuneNoKa@vpn3-1451.near.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 20:43:31 jamesstanley: also, there are a lot less hard rules in CL for such kinds of things (ime), because bad karma tends to be fairly innocuous. You won't normally be haunted by such a decision in a fatal way. 20:44:41 ok 20:44:55 i'm a c programmer so i usually try to be very careful to avoid bad karma :P 20:45:09 right. :-) 20:46:20 I always found it funny how c++ is actually worse in that regard 20:47:57 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:48:15 felideon [n=user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 20:48:56 -!- konr [n=user@187.88.105.40] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:50:24 cl-gtk2 can't install because asdf-install can't find CL-GLUT. Any suggestions? 20:50:42 install cl-glut? :-) 20:51:15 prxq, cliki's never heard of it. I keep finding cl-opengl when I search for it though, is that the right package? 20:51:28 cl-opengl has it yes 20:51:33 malsyned: my cl-opengl has cl-glut.asd in it 20:51:57 Xach, thanks. 20:52:07 So who do I report the bug to that cl-glut isn't asdf-installable? 20:52:44 Do I report it to the cl-opengl guys? 20:53:08 malsyned: You can make it asdf-installable yourself easily enough. 20:53:10 *_3b* votes complain to asdf-install people, or fix it yourself :) 20:53:26 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-29-106.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:53:42 *stassats`* votes "stop using asdf-install" 20:54:27 man, a couple of years ago everybody was jumping on the asdf-install bandwagon. What's the new hotness? 20:54:30 malsyned: Ok, I think I fixed it. 20:54:38 <_3b> does darcsweb have a tarball download option? 20:54:43 malsyned: Can you asdf-install it now? 20:54:55 Xach, I'll give it a try. 20:55:19 dang it, the package ain't signed. 20:55:25 *Xach* can't fix that at the moment 20:56:09 <_3b> ah, forgot about that problem with automatic tarballs :( 20:56:19 Xach, yeah, that appears to work. 20:56:50 Xach, that's alright. That's a restartable error. I'm using a wrapper around asdf-install:install that insulates me from that problem. 20:57:11 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:57:49 <_3b> malsyned: you trust asdf-install without even checking the download URLs? 20:59:58 pkhuong: the more i think about it, the more it seems that cl-ppcre would be godawful slow for what i'm doing. 21:00:26 -!- Sukoshi`` [n=MuneNoKa@66.245.20.81] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:00:47 Xach: a first pass with the occurrence bit vectors would filter next to everything, hopefully. 21:01:30 _3b, on a shitty development box, yeah. But good point. 21:01:42 Xach: If you have any experience with parser generators, you might find META-SEXP useful. 21:03:00 -!- fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:03:31 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-83.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [] 21:03:54 Xach: I have gotten to prefer a good parser generator over regular expressions. 21:03:54 -!- tmh [n=user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:04:04 tmh [n=user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 21:04:24 What happened? 21:04:28 What'd I miss? 21:04:35 nothing. 21:05:17 Hmm, ERC has been behaving oddly. 21:05:29 *Xach* still likes his approach, more-memory-than-expected be damned 21:05:52 plan9 [n=stian@arachnotron.sletner.com] has joined #lisp 21:06:25 I am using the smooth-scrolling extension in emacs and the scrolltobottom module in ERC. Wonder if that is the issue, could just be a coincidence. 21:08:36 speaking of erc: does anyone know how to configure it to not keep infinite scrollback? 21:09:16 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:11:44 -!- foom2 [n=user@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:12:08 i know, wait 21:12:19 foom2 [n=user@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:12:32 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 21:13:21 you need to load truncate module and set erc-truncate-mode to t 21:13:33 I can never find the correct option in ERC by navigating the customization menu. I always have to look it up on ewiki. 21:14:48 emacs was getting *really* slow at 200klines of history. :) 21:16:12 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:20:57 what I've always wondered about is why such things aren't enabled by default 21:21:18 tmh: ERC is slow for me once it's been running for several days. 21:21:23 Lithos [n=chatzill@DSLPool-net214-62.wctc.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:31 I've had times when I wanted to quickly glance at things the night before and 500 lines isn't enough to cover it 21:22:02 that's what logs are for 21:22:12 assuming you want to save all the logs, sure 21:22:15 or look online. 21:22:17 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:22:18 that, and it can be well 50000. 21:22:20 I have 80K lines in my buffer now and going back a screen takes at least 5 seconds. 21:22:35 pr [n=pr@p579CA997.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:36 instead of 500 21:22:40 i have M-x lisp-logs to browse logs 21:22:44 you can change erc-max-buffer-size from its default 30000 chars 21:22:50 reb: Slow isn't my problem, dropped connections are. 21:22:57 stassats`: again I think that needs to be set to record logs though. 21:23:07 tmh: My connections do not drop. 21:23:10 TDT: online logs 21:24:59 -!- malsyned [n=malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:25:42 malsyned [n=malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:10 Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:47 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 21:35:15 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:33 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:42:17 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.132.120.77] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:44:23 marioxcc [n=user@200.77.65.198] has joined #lisp 21:44:51 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:44:57 retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has joined #lisp 21:47:03 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:47:33 solocoder [n=alkoma@24.143.239.195] has joined #lisp 21:49:36 pr_ [n=pr@p579CAF36.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:28 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-30-82-253-164-227.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:51:13 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-53-82-65-38-59.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:45 -!- UnwashedMeme1 [n=nathan@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 21:52:45 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:52:47 -!- pr_ is now known as pr 21:53:28 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-98-234-48-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:53:56 slash_ [n=drevil@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:54:33 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:58:14 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 21:59:09 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:00:44 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:15 -!- sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 22:05:46 -!- sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:08:57 -!- Lithos [n=chatzill@DSLPool-net214-62.wctc.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:09:07 -!- solocoder [n=alkoma@24.143.239.195] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:09:33 gonzojive [n=red@171.66.53.30] has joined #lisp 22:09:53 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 22:12:26 Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-76-138.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:14:09 -!- Ri-|away is now known as Ri- 22:14:58 RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.74.61.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 22:15:01 /join #haskel 22:15:07 oops 22:15:08 lol 22:15:14 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Client Quit] 22:15:19 Traitor 22:15:25 :D 22:15:29 :-) 22:15:41 no I'm just idling both, I don't program either 22:15:58 RaceCondition: you program yet another language?! 22:16:01 Traitor! 22:16:12 maybe I don't program at all? :P 22:16:22 maybe I do PHP instead 22:16:24 naah, you must be a traitor :P 22:16:43 Let's throw RaceCondition in water and see if (s)he floats! 22:16:46 *madnificent* crawls away scared "He used the P word" 22:16:57 perl? 22:17:21 tmh: the water and floating joke is some inside joke? :P 22:17:46 a-s [n=user@93.112.122.84] has joined #lisp 22:18:02 RaceCondition: Only if you're guilty. ;-) 22:18:03 isn't it a reference to monthy python? 22:19:01 so you people call Haskell people traitors 22:19:39 More accurately, anyone not using the One True Language, Lisp, is an infidel. 22:19:52 *madnificent* bows 22:20:01 I heard Python was originally based on LISP... does that make me less a traitor? 22:20:04 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:20:09 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:20:40 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-13-25.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:20:50 No 22:21:09 Aisling [i=ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 22:21:09 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:21:46 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 22:22:12 RaceCondition, the water and floating joke is a reference to the medieval test for witches. 22:22:18 that was a bad time to disconnect 22:22:47 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483CB35.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:22:50 We ascertain guilt using Medieval ordeals. The defendant is dunked in a pool. Sinking proves your innocence; floating proves your guilt. 22:22:54 RaceCondition: every modern language claims it is a new lisp decendent, but they rarely have the features :) 22:23:16 hmm, how about Io? 22:23:22 RaceCondition: and python's code != python's data, therefore it still lacks 22:23:28 It's not just for witches, but any difficult case where the guilt is not easily ascertained. 22:23:29 allegedly Io has most LISP's features 22:23:41 RaceCondition: I honoustly don't know (but you can use anything you want and still join here! :P) 22:24:23 yeah, I know :P but it's still fun to discuss 22:24:30 Hmmm. Is there any way to make SBCL give me a restart that offers to remove existing methods when I try to redefine a generic function with an incompatible parameter list. 22:24:53 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-90-162.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:24:54 -!- Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-76-138.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:25:43 RaceCondition: quick look at Io's web page and it looks like there are no macros. 22:25:57 Most Lispers these days would consider macros a defining feature of Lisp. 22:26:09 gigamonkey: no macros, yes, but there is lazy evaluation of method arguments so that kinda makes up for it :) 22:26:32 the only thing that makes up for macros are macros 22:26:37 since Io has no compilation, it cannot have macros anyway, I guess, but functionally I think lazy evaluation makes up for it 22:26:57 RaceCondition: macro's can be defined for interpreted environments too 22:26:58 timor: well Io has runtime macros in that case, no compile time ones :P 22:27:14 RaceCondition: no. lazy evaluation covers only some of the many uses of macros. 22:27:27 lazy evaluation is OK, but it's not a general substitute for macros. 22:27:36 which ones does it not cover? macros for inline code for performance? 22:27:43 I'm just asking, not arguing... 22:27:44 See http://gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-parsing-binary-files.html for an example. 22:27:47 gigamonkey: Can you (remove-method (find-method ...)) ? 22:27:58 RaceCondition, anaphoric macros, for one. 22:28:00 RaceCondition: evaluating things in a specialized environment, for instance 22:28:01 what does that piece of LISP code do? 22:28:09 -!- maelcoluim [n=maelcolu@client-86-25-219-224.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:28:09 tmh: sure I can or I can just fmakunbound the symbol. 22:28:43 gigamonkey: I mean from the restart. 22:28:45 But I was hoping that when I C-c C-c'd the new definition in SLIME and end up in the debugger there'd be a way to say, "toss all the current method definitions" 22:28:53 RaceCondition: perhaps you could read up on lisp over time? It really has features which I haven't found in any other language... it's interesting 22:28:54 What restart? 22:29:08 malsyned: what are anaphoryc macros? :P 22:29:18 anaphoric* 22:29:34 RaceCondition, there's a chapter about them in On Lisp by Paul Graham. You can get the PDF free at his website. 22:29:53 minion: tell RaceCondition about on lisp 22:29:54 RaceCondition: please see on lisp: by Paul Graham An advanced textbook on Common Lisp, with special focus on macros. http://www.cliki.net/on%20lisp 22:30:04 gigamonkey: Sorry, I mean when you end up in the debugger, using remove/find-method instead of choosing a restart. 22:30:14 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:30:33 gigamonkey: I'm not the best with restarts, I usually just abort and fix. I'm just now trying to learn to modify and continue. 22:30:38 RaceCondition: If you're new to lisp, on lisp is not the best book to get started with 22:30:52 And what is madnificent? ;-) 22:30:56 malsyned, madnificent: thanks 22:30:59 But for example, an anaphoric "if" block binds the symbol "it" within its body to the value of the condition that was tested. 22:31:04 actually I downloaded a bunch of books on LISP anyway :) 22:31:05 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:07 gigamonkey: I'm not saying! 22:31:20 minion: tell RaceCondition about pcl 22:31:21 RaceCondition: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 22:31:25 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:31:45 malsyned: so why cant I implement the anaphoric if example in Io? 22:31:58 Heh. Less than three months to PCL's fifth birthday. 22:32:10 RaceCondition, can you? 22:32:14 malsyned: I think so, yes 22:32:50 if is a 2 argument function, no? the second argument is lazily evaluated, and if just evaluates it with "it" bound to something... no? 22:32:56 I've never used Io. In other languages you can approximate them by, for example, having if take a lambda of one argument as its consequent and alternative arguments. 22:33:02 perhaps minion should be able to give an overview of the online books and for whom they are best suited. PCL assumes some knowledge up front 22:33:40 RaceCondition, anaphoric if does that, yes. 22:33:41 why try to look for language that has CL's features, CL is readily available, hehe 22:33:56 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f756811.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:33:56 malsyned: I'm pretty sure you can do that in Io with ease 22:33:58 Guthur: because it doesn't run on my android phone? :( 22:34:16 Shouldn't it be ported to it? 22:34:25 hehe, Someone had ecl on a nokia last night I think 22:34:31 ecl runs on the iphone too 22:34:45 but that bloody android is made on some kind of drunk man's java 22:35:04 RaceCondition, if you can give an example, I'd be interested. 22:35:15 actually the register-based VM thing is pretty awesome 22:35:24 but it's not standard 22:35:36 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 22:35:36 madnificent can you use python on the android ok 22:35:59 malsyned: I don't remember the exact method calls, but you define if to be a function whose 2nd argument is lazily evaled and if can then decide to eval the argument in any context, the context of the caller, itself, a made up context... whatever 22:36:35 omg, i typoed a search for "lisp gui" as "lisp guy", and what's the first return? "If a guy has a lisp does that mean he's gay? | Answerbag" *lmfao* 22:36:58 Io lets you control the environment in which function calls execute? 22:38:03 Guthur: why should I care? I don't know 22:38:17 malsyned: you can control the environment in which AST's are evaluated, I believe 22:38:28 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:38:28 -!- varjagg [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:38:46 so, what're good options for a fast gui? 22:38:56 madnificent I was just curious 22:39:03 you did seem to care about iphone dev 22:39:08 i need to basically return row oriented data (ala table or spreadsheet). point and click data entry, basic graphics.... 22:39:12 malsyned: oh, and, since everything is a function all in Io, yes 22:39:33 malsyned: I think even the line terminating semicolon is a function all, or at least could as well be :P 22:39:35 Guthur: ah, I thought you were trying to express that lisp might not be bad just because it doesn't run on it (which would've been true) 22:39:45 -all 22:40:04 Guthur: no, but I've had the response that ecl runs on smartphones before. I was trying to cover that 22:40:11 RaceCondition, if you can manipulate the ASTs of the language, then you've got either macros or something of equivalent power. 22:40:24 If I didn't have CL and performance wasn't too much of an issue, I'd use python 22:40:37 malsyned: yeah... that's why I thought Io had macro-equivalent capabilities 22:41:56 RaceCondition, well then, if you're looking for an even more obscure language to use than Lisp and still want the power of macros, it sounds like Io is an option :P 22:42:28 malsyned: well I'd pick LISP anytime... Io is oriented for the embedded market... 22:42:38 I don't know python... I could learn it, but I think I'd start using clojure on the android if I'd had to do something on it and CL would not be an option 22:42:44 I mean scripting 22:43:55 *madnificent* remembers that Io is possibly a nice language 22:43:59 madnificent, a tool is a tool, hehe, python is pretty straight forward though 22:44:39 I think I just don't want to leave my lisp comfy chair... I regularly feel happy when coding in it 22:45:08 madnificent: do LISP programmers on the average have a higher income? :P 22:45:24 RaceCondition: than what? 22:45:29 than an average programmer 22:45:36 RaceCondition: BTW, folks spell it Lisp these days. 22:45:40 sorry 22:45:52 No worries. 22:46:33 RaceCondition: possibly, I don't know. I guess it may well be if you take programmers in the broad meaning of the word. But that may say more about some jobs which are seen as programming than about lisp ;) 22:46:40 Lisp programmers are corporate secrets locked away in a basement 22:46:43 gigamonkey, funny, when I ask my lisp about 'Lisp, it always corrects it to LISP. :P 22:46:45 sleepydog [n=david@64-252-33-33.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:50 so we don't know what they get paid 22:46:51 \o/ can has basement \o/ 22:47:11 but how many companies actually use Lisp and for what purposes? 22:47:17 "thats my stapler..." 22:47:39 RaceCondition, http://wiki.alu.org/Success_Stories 22:47:53 RaceCondition, many of these questions can be answered by bumming around the front page of cliki.net for a bit. 22:48:06 RaceCondition: mind you, that being used has got absolutely nothing to do with being a useable language 22:48:33 s/useable/usable 22:48:44 malsyned: that list is too short ;) 22:48:55 leo2007, it's a wiki :P 22:49:10 madnificent: yeah, that explains why PHP is still around... :) 22:49:23 cough java cough 22:49:36 -!- mishoo_ [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:49:36 I personally prefer to hate PHP more 22:51:07 PHP like some other languages reached a critical mass where it became self perpetuating, nothing to do with merit 22:52:02 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@93-41-198-254.ip83.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 22:52:13 hello 22:52:13 fe[nl]ix, memo from lichtblau: okay, I tried sionescu-hemlock, which seems have been run through filter-branch. But according to diff it has the exact same files, and tabs are still there. So what has changed? 22:52:38 -!- hicx174 [n=hicx174@211.44.210.50] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:53:43 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:57:51 davazp [n=user@205.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:31 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.212.193] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:04:50 milanj [n=milan@79.101.212.193] has joined #lisp 23:05:13 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 23:05:39 -!- TDT [n=dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:06:32 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:08:03 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:09:17 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@adsl-065-013-015-097.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:09:29 ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-186-134.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 23:10:00 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-187-25.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:10:01 -!- ruediger_ is now known as ruediger 23:15:00 -!- alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:15:46 -!- p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-nelhrcjsfyknewtl] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:16:07 balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 23:16:21 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-90-162.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:16:28 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-12307.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:18:16 p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/session] has joined #lisp 23:18:45 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-252-200.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:20:22 -!- davazp [n=user@205.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:20:28 plage [n=user@118.68.196.12] has joined #lisp 23:20:37 derrida [n=derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 23:20:39 Good morning! 23:20:50 good morning! 23:21:06 hi plage 23:21:41 hello plage , derrida 23:22:07 dostoyev1ky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 23:22:07 -!- dostoyevsky [n=sck@195.49.138.42] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:22:19 hey madnificent 23:23:21 davazp [n=user@205.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:37 what do you guys think is the best way to manage asdf? i'm having some issues with asdf-install, but maybe user related ;) 23:23:50 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:24:28 derrida: clbuild seems popular 23:25:17 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-CDE684CB.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: gz] 23:25:35 i'm happy to do it manually, asdf-install had just been working great until i woke up this morning :> 23:26:10 i'll have another look at clbuild 23:26:15 Guthur: ty 23:27:22 -!- gonzojive [n=red@171.66.53.30] has quit [Client Quit] 23:28:51 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:29:02 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 23:29:13 hicx174 [n=hicx174@211.44.210.50] has joined #lisp 23:30:01 -!- felideon [n=user@12.228.15.162] has left #lisp 23:31:09 Do any lisps target ARM? (or LLVM, I guess, would be just as good) 23:31:38 clisp and ecl can run on ARM, i believe 23:31:57 stassats`, but clisp doesn't target ARM, right? Just runs its bytecode interpreter on top of it? 23:32:04 that's right 23:32:28 does ecl use gcc for compilation? 23:32:36 yes 23:33:22 So it'll probably work on any platform that gcc does, forever, huh? 23:33:43 in theory, yes 23:34:11 that's pretty awesome. 23:35:34 theory and reality are so often asymmetrical 23:35:37 and ecl's not new either. I don't always see it in the list of supported platforms for packages that seem pretty portable. 23:36:31 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 23:36:45 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 23:40:53 francogrex [n=user@91.182.57.29] has joined #lisp 23:41:37 how was it to compile a lisp file to fas and the lisp file itself loads another fas file? 23:42:16 it was great 23:42:17 actually the test.lisp files contains (load... cffi.fas") 23:42:28 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:28 Xach: share the graetness 23:43:07 as you ca guess compilation fails because cffi:: is not loaded 23:43:46 *_3b* was unable to guess that, but perhaps you want eval-when? 23:44:10 eval-when? maybe... how would that go? 23:44:12 <_3b> or #. depending on level of hackishness you prefer 23:44:28 not too complex, small brains here 23:44:39 <_3b> clhs eval-when 23:44:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_eval_w.htm 23:45:08 <_3b> (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (load ...)) or something like that 23:45:55 I wrap that on the load ok i will try 23:46:56 <_3b> for anything more than 1 file, asdf would probably be a better solution though 23:48:20 I know, it's just one file 23:50:18 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:51:47 _3b: thanks it works 23:54:01 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.212.193] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:57:00 it had to be though without :execute 23:57:06 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:57:21 (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel) (load ...)) ... 23:59:05 unicode_ [n=user@95.214.27.242] has joined #lisp