00:00:00 um 00:01:44 how do i find that out? 00:02:02 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:02:04 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@81.2.103.24] has quit [] 00:02:27 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-61-42.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:03:11 necroforest: what did you set it to? 00:03:45 alexbobp [n=alex@66.112.249.238] has joined #lisp 00:04:05 is it not *central-registry* 00:04:10 i didn't set it 00:04:58 necroforest: ASDF is for defining systems, 'ASDF-INSTALL' installed systemd defined with asdf and linked on cliki... clbuild is a replacement for asdf-install that i highly recommend... but regardless, you need to learn about asdf 00:04:59 Guthur: sure. I never need to fiddle with it because I use c-l-c :D 00:05:00 minion: asdf? 00:05:01 asdf: asdf is Another System Definition Facility. http://www.cliki.net/asdf 00:06:06 i have it abstracted away into my own wee help function 00:06:42 *drewc* uses clbuild 00:06:46 and LOAD 00:06:58 clbuild seems to be popular, i really need to check that out 00:07:30 *Fade* peels off a new clbuild generated instance for every project. 00:07:44 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.196.12] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:07:47 plage [n=user@118.68.196.12] has joined #lisp 00:11:18 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:11:25 could my problem be that i'm using slime from clbuild and installed the SDL/OpenGl stuff with ASDF? 00:12:11 yes 00:12:27 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:12:28 grr 00:12:32 you don't install anyting with asdf 00:12:36 common-lisp.net/project/clbuild/ unfortunately seems to be broke 00:12:59 s/ASDF/asdf-install 00:13:45 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-61-42.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:20:30 necroforest did you get it to work 00:21:48 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 00:21:53 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f051013198.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:22:16 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:23:28 -!- pr_ [n=pr@p579CA851.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 00:24:08 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:24:28 cools` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:24:45 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:26:35 cools`` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:27:49 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:48 cools``` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:28:52 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]"] 00:30:41 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:31:00 cools```` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:31:32 -!- cools` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:33:48 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-32-140.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:34:07 saikatc_ [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:49 balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-249.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:33 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:40:13 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:40:13 -!- saikatc_ is now known as saikatc 00:41:06 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:43:36 -!- Zergonan [n=Zerg@cpc2-bath5-2-0-cust211.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:45:09 JigABootDisk [n=JigABoot@201.171.121.13] has joined #lisp 00:45:42 -!- cools`` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:45:48 -!- unicode [n=user@95.214.75.239] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:46:51 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 00:46:59 -!- JigABootDisk is now known as BootDisk 00:46:59 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-67-237.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:47:46 -!- cools``` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:47:48 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:47:53 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 00:48:52 -!- rahul [rjain@clozure-6C5C827B.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:48:53 -!- rahul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:50:46 -!- cools```` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:50:50 rahul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:52 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:51:58 Zergonan [n=Zerg@cpc2-bath5-2-0-cust211.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:55:26 [1]Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-210-210.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:24 Is there a name I can look up for getting the numerical address of a reference? I'm on lispworks, and have 2 references that are not eq, even though they reference something I could only have built once (cons (gensym) (gensym)) basically 00:59:17 Modius: what are you comparing? (eq (cons (gensym) (gensym)) (cons (gensym) (gensym))) ? 00:59:33 No - basically, imagine (let ((id (cons (gensym) (gensym))) . . . . . . 00:59:42 Then at 2 points in code I have the same looking cons; but they are not eq 00:59:58 However, this is lispworks and one was likely stored in the OFASL - might it have duped the cons? 01:00:23 (eq id id) will be eq 01:00:28 T 01:00:29 I know 01:00:32 But they are not 01:00:35 uhh? 01:00:45 I mean, I get the conses back in 2 places 01:00:52 They have the same contents (are equal) 01:00:59 I don't manipulate them or mine them for their syms 01:01:12 The (cons (gensym) (gensym)) means I would have had to read the ID to build another cons and I really don't. 01:01:44 you make it sound like there's a bug in LW 01:01:59 Or some specific of how it handles the storage of conses in OFASLs 01:02:11 I was just wondering, even though this is SBCL-land, if this is something I should expect. 01:02:13 no, the same cons cell has to be EQ 01:02:27 the only things that aren't necessarily EQ are numbers and characters 01:02:41 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-67-237.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:02:45 Modius: the portable way to get unique ids is to stuff things into an EQL hash table and assign them serial numbers 01:02:49 What's a function to look for to get the memory address? Maybe I can track down where they diverged 01:03:00 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-187-102.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:03:07 I registered the things with the finalizer too (long story) so I can't use numbers. 01:03:27 What's some terminology to search on to find the address of the references? I want to be able to see where they diverge 01:03:39 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 01:04:49 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-44-201.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 01:05:10 man, gotta love lisp 01:05:22 i've fallen for it. 01:05:22 Modius: if they are not EQ, they are not the same. 01:05:40 Err...is common-lisp.net down? 01:05:43 sykopomp: I realize that; but being able to get the address would let me pepper code for prints to find where they diverge 01:06:03 redline6561: connecting only? 01:06:09 redline6561: yeah, failed here too 01:06:21 Modius: I don't know if it's even possible to get that address in LW 01:06:30 Demosthenes: Ah, damn. Thanks for confirming. 01:06:38 rouslan [n=rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 01:07:47 recursive tree parsing is so much better than regexps ;] 01:08:15 good night 01:08:19 -!- serichsen [n=user@g228152043.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["good fight"] 01:08:21 Demosthenes: what are you up to? 01:08:32 the ususal, parsing other peoples cruddy output 01:08:57 made one parser that reads in a space delimited file meant to be read by a human (ie: its divided into logical sections and indented) 01:09:09 i wanted stats from the numbers and values they were outputting 01:09:33 so each line gets parsed into a list of space separated words, and each line is put into a dree with its depth dictated by space indentation 01:09:46 then i just search the tree to find what i want and turn them into CSV rows 01:10:05 I kid you not - I added a struct (defstruct id-type a b) And call (make-id-type :a (gensym) :b (gensym)) in only one place in code, in place of the cons. I have 2 references to structs that print to the same gensym, and they are not EQ. 01:10:23 the main "query" function is very generic, and i'm passing pre/post/hook/xform/exception functions in left and right, but it means each search only specify's what makes it different from the others 01:11:21 One of them is dug out of a hashtable that was populated when stored in the OFASL - must have something to do with that, it must be being streamed back in or something. 01:11:35 Modius: um. 01:11:38 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:12:02 Modius: certainly anything brought in from a fasl is not going to be EQ to anything you already had unless it's a symbol or you have make-load-form gimmicks 01:12:11 Demosthenes: not the most pleasant job to do, but at least you have a good language to do it with :) 01:12:22 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-79-106.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:12:30 kpreid: It was however only constructed once - but I have 2 references to it containing the same gensyms that are not eq 01:12:50 Modius: If you got your hash table out of a FASL *that is another construction* 01:13:09 basic serialization principles: non-interned objects are distinct 01:13:39 kpreid: Aah - so the hashtable serializes by value? 01:13:59 nothing to do with "by value", or the hashtable in particular 01:14:36 kpreid: My point is, even if I only consructed one with those 2 values, I can end up with references to 2 of them? 01:14:39 there IS NO WAY for loading a fasl to reconstruct a reference to your particular cons that you made earlier, unless you have some make-load-form-based interning scheme 01:14:41 madnificent: i don't program for a living, i'm a systems consultant. and until now i'd been using perl to turn debugging dumps into inventory data in perl... not anymore ;] 01:14:49 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:15:31 Modius: think about this: what happens if this fasl you wrote is loaded into a different lisp image. the original cons *doesn't exist* 01:16:18 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.142.101] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:18:47 Demosthenes: what does a systems consultant do exactly? 01:23:21 -!- Zergonan [n=Zerg@cpc2-bath5-2-0-cust211.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:25:40 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.73.249] has joined #lisp 01:26:35 Hergonan [n=Zerg@cpc2-bath5-2-0-cust211.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 01:30:24 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-68.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:32:41 madnificent: build expensive system ;] 01:32:42 s 01:33:05 Demosthenes: what kind of systems? 01:33:21 can you give an example, perhaps? 01:33:29 i work on IBM's POWER platform (AIX, Linux), and all IBM Storage 01:35:03 expensive systems, indeed :P 01:35:23 true 01:35:29 big iron, but not mainframe 01:36:10 -!- rouslan [n=rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.4/20091111133509]"] 01:37:50 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 01:39:28 felideon` [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:32 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-68.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:41:13 syamajala [n=syamajal@173-14-133-149-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:50 I used clbuild to upgrade SBCL, and when I try to ./clbuild copmile-implementation sbcl an error occurs and I'm thrown to an LDB prompt. is clbuild supposed to work for fine for upgrading SBCL? 01:43:26 galaxywatcher_ [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-44-201.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 01:49:15 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:49:18 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 01:50:19 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-187-102.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 01:53:31 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-44-201.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:53:31 -!- galaxywatcher_ is now known as galaxywatcher 01:59:27 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:02:26 Eni [n=endy@064-090-158-071.plateautel.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:29 -!- Eni [n=endy@064-090-158-071.plateautel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:03:48 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:07:15 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 02:07:50 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:07:53 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:08:52 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 02:16:38 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:16:49 anair_84 [n=anair_84@ip68-108-251-45.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:59 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.196.12] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:24:01 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-1-90.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 02:26:19 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.68.31] has joined #lisp 02:26:23 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.68.31] has left #lisp 02:27:55 -!- abdel [n=abdel@ip116-61-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:28:04 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:28:24 Bobrobyn [n=rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:28:27 plage [n=user@118.68.196.12] has joined #lisp 02:30:43 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:31:02 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-61-42.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 02:34:44 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.218.183] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 02:35:36 felideon`: do you still have your target directory? 02:36:06 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-249.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:36:09 it crashed here too, but it worked when removing the target directory (if I recall correctly) 02:36:19 -!- felideon` is now known as felideon_ 02:36:35 let me try that. what is the target directory for 02:36:55 oh, stores the lisp implementation there 02:37:35 madnificent: cool, it's compiling now. Thank you. 02:37:57 by the way, any idea why (or how much longer) common-lisp.net is down? and some lisp.org sites as well 02:39:00 has there been any networks affected by the earthquake? 02:41:01 tthuru how ith the thupport group? 02:41:09 madnifithent? 02:41:25 Thith thupport group ith the betht for my thpeech impediment 02:41:29 how do I join? 02:42:23 felideon_: don't know, but it has been mentioned here before, so I guess it will be solved by someone's monday :) 02:42:43 tsuru: and what earth quake? 02:43:17 lithping lithping 02:43:23 tsuru: Apparently one registered 6.5 in North California a few hours ago. 02:43:23 we all love to lithp here in irthee 02:43:46 tsuru: Whoops. My last was for madnificent. Clearly tired. :( 02:44:02 *redline6561* thinks someone's monday seems awfully far away 02:44:19 redline6561: could be it 02:44:28 *redline6561* especially since he was in the middle of ./clbuild update --all-projects... 02:44:39 lmao 02:44:47 madnificent: I know, right? :) 02:45:04 madnificent: I guess I get saturday night off. 02:45:35 if North California has been split in half by the earthquake, and the server is over there... then it may even be longer o_O 02:45:47 lucky you, free week! 02:45:51 Tired of NIGGERS? Sick of their monkeyshines? Would you rather never have to deal with the fecal-colored beast? Then you are not alone! Join us at Chimpout Forum! http://www.chimpout.com/forum At Chimpout WE ARE NOT WHITE SUPREMACISTS! We welcome anybody who isn't a NIGGER and who HATES NIGGERS! http://www.chimpout.com/forum 02:46:35 shoulda known 02:46:47 TDT [n=dthole@173-30-223-49.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 02:47:02 drewc Krystof Xof Xach pkhuong 02:47:42 g'evening everyone 02:48:37 hello TDT 02:48:41 Tired of NIGGERS? Sick of their monkeyshines? Would you rather never have to deal with the fecal-colored beast? Then you are not alone! Join us at Chimpout Forum! http://www.chimpout.com/forum At Chimpout WE ARE NOT WHITE SUPREMACISTS! We welcome anybody who isn't a NIGGER and who HATES NIGGERS! http://www.chimpout.com/forum 02:48:45 -!- BootDisk [n=JigABoot@201.171.121.13] has quit [K-lined] 02:48:45 hey plage 02:48:53 oh boy 02:49:42 Well glad he was k-lined at least, heh 02:49:51 hello madnificent. 02:50:02 what does it mean to be K-lined? 02:50:21 kicked from the irc servers 02:50:55 a ban, even 02:51:10 yeah, with his IP he's not getting back on freenode. 02:51:17 sykopomp` [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 02:51:20 plage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-lined#K-line 02:51:24 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:51:45 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 02:51:56 sykopomp`: you disappeared together with BootDisk! :O you bastard ^_^ 02:51:59 although it doesn't mean that he can't get back..there's been some interesting people in the past years who got back on more attacking the more popular rooms. 02:52:47 dynamic ip addresses circumvent the technology anyways (or proxies for that matter) 02:52:49 They really must be bored 02:53:50 madnificent: Thanks 02:53:56 davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:41 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:05:19 echo-area [i=herbert@222.130.203.170] has joined #lisp 03:09:53 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 03:10:04 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 03:15:36 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:18:32 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 03:21:07 wakeup^ [n=wakeup@koln-5d817c2a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:28 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d815927.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:23:21 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:23:50 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 03:26:56 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:28:40 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@173-14-133-149-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:29:01 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 03:30:34 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 03:30:35 -!- echo-area [i=herbert@222.130.203.170] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:30:58 echo-area [i=herbert@222.130.203.170] has joined #lisp 03:31:54 rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:30 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 03:34:49 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:35:20 -!- anair_84 [n=anair_84@ip68-108-251-45.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:35:25 drewc: I didn't see you pasted anything. I've seen that post before and it is very interesting. I do still encourage new blog posts on the matter 03:44:31 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:07 ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-187-239.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 03:47:51 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:49:30 Steg [n=steg55@host217-44-220-238.range217-44.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 03:50:31 Could one of you chaps tell me what im missing here 03:50:44 because its probably blindingly obvious 03:51:47 Where? 03:51:55 Steg: use lisppaste 03:52:16 oh.. bots are gone? 03:52:23 -!- echo-area [i=herbert@222.130.203.170] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:52:43 lisp paste seems to be a bit broken :P 03:52:49 echo-area [i=herbert@222.130.203.170] has joined #lisp 03:52:51 They were disgusted by BootDisk... 03:53:46 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 03:56:43 I've been poking around the internet for a bubblesort implimentation, in lisp, that doesnt use loops 03:56:52 and I can't find one 03:57:22 Steg: you should probably do your homework yourself! 03:58:14 Ah, but if only I could understand why (if (>= ((car p) (cadr p)))) doesnt work 03:58:24 i would be well on the way to making the sodding thing work 03:58:48 Steg: because '(car p)' is not the name of a function 03:58:56 Steg: you have too many parentheses. 03:59:01 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-187-102.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:59:16 Steg: in lisp, parentheses are significant and meaningful, contrarily to other languages where you can add as many parentheses as you want. 03:59:41 ah, its not the parentheses here, I dont think. The error is "should be a lambda expression" 03:59:49 which is rather unhelpful as you would need two 03:59:56 Ah if you are the expert... 04:00:38 -!- ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-187-239.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:01:49 Steg: try at the repl: + 1 2 04:01:53 then: (+ 1 2) 04:01:57 then ((+ 1 2)) 04:02:05 What are your conclusions? 04:02:10 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-68.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:02:30 Steg: why ask for help if you're not going to beleive the people who know more than you? 04:02:41 oh 04:02:47 because I was sure I checked that 04:02:58 erm, yeh. Sorry 04:03:32 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-68.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:04:15 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-68.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:06:51 (reverse-i-search)`proc': /proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/eth0/proxy_arp 04:06:51 04:06:54 whoops sorry 04:07:01 not idea where that came from 04:07:04 no* 04:09:59 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:10:03 pjb: heh ... looking at that i realised that CL-USER> + 1 2 is actually not an error! 04:10:11 Indeed. 04:10:16 :-) 04:10:20 i always forget about + and ++ etc! 04:11:11 aren't there repls that dwim that into (+ 1 2)? 04:11:43 kpreid: you can write a repl that does, yes. But not the "standard" REPL (which is not standardized). 04:12:03 Bubble sort without loop: http://paste.lisp.org/display/93191 04:12:27 pjb: pffft... i would have used PROG ! 04:12:32 pjb: I think I saw some lisp impl that did. dim memory says allegro. but, not sure at all. 04:12:33 kpreid: That said, since + etc are standard variables, it wouldn't be WIM to put parentheses around + 1 2. 04:12:56 kpreid: you might be thinking of Rob Warnocks OPFR 04:13:12 Outer Parethesis Free REPL 04:13:14 the rule being something like that more than one expression *on one line* becomes a list 04:13:19 drewc: no 04:13:35 this was an incidental feature in some repl, not a specific addition 04:13:38 oh, well he's posted the implementation to c.l.l a few times, only REPL like that i've ever seen. 04:13:38 *kpreid* stops now 04:13:49 kpreid: also: (read) Hello 04:14:05 kpreid: there are a lot of useful behavior in not reading implicit parentheses. 04:14:39 pjb: please stop assuming I can't see the implications 04:15:11 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:15:52 Sorry, I didn't mean to irritate. 04:16:18 I was mentioning that I thought I had seen it, not claiming it was a good idea. 04:16:48 rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:27 davazp` [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:31 -!- davazp` [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:29:36 OPFR is very nice for end-user applications. 04:30:19 Mainly because mandatory parentheses in a CLI are a hard sell. 04:30:34 deepfire: well, it's easy enough to write a command shell... 04:31:04 pjb, what do you mean? 04:31:47 OPFR only remove one layer of parentheses. You still have to write: print (+ 1 2) *file* 04:31:57 btw, opfr is available in an ASDFified form through git://git.feelingofgreen.ru/opfr 04:32:07 pjb, yes, of course 04:32:07 So the users may still want to be able to write: print 1+2 to file 04:32:19 which is not too hard to provide either. 04:32:51 lpolzer__ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-218-150.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:31 The nice part is that you need to document just the OPFR-ness and not your custom syntax. 04:33:56 And either punt to CLHS or excerpts thereof for the rest of the documentation. 04:34:11 Perhaps I'm biased, I just implemented a command-line interpreter in lisp :-) 04:34:51 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 04:35:11 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:38:15 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:49 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:39:51 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:57 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:16 Welcome back minion! 04:42:05 -!- davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:44:31 Cool, now I may resume my clbuild update 04:46:55 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 04:48:53 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-216-154.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:49:42 -!- rpg_ [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:49:52 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 04:49:59 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:50:23 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:01:45 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:03:35 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:04:09 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.33.44] has joined #lisp 05:15:25 sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:25 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:15:44 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 05:16:50 rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:18 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 05:19:32 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:19:56 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.196.12] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:21:08 -!- echo-area [i=herbert@222.130.203.170] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:21:32 echo-area [i=herbert@222.130.203.170] has joined #lisp 05:23:48 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-201-8.adsl.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 05:25:28 -!- TDT [n=dthole@173-30-223-49.client.mchsi.com] has quit [] 05:25:36 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439907.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 05:25:44 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.77.65.198] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:29:58 -!- echo-area [i=herbert@222.130.203.170] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:32:00 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.68.31] has joined #lisp 05:39:37 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.33.44] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:39:55 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.33.44] has joined #lisp 05:46:25 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [" "] 05:47:01 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:54:58 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:07:04 snoalot [n=na0@FLH1Abf219.isk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 06:07:16 balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-249.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:11:46 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 06:15:01 nostoi [n=nostoi@172.Red-81-36-252.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:48 -!- snoalot [n=na0@FLH1Abf219.isk.mesh.ad.jp] has left #lisp 06:33:52 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.33.44] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:36:21 zombie_ [n=zombie@99-61-160-133.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:44 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:40:19 -!- joshe [n=joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has quit ["brb"] 06:40:40 joshe [n=joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 06:43:27 -!- felideon_ [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:45:12 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@172.Red-81-36-252.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 06:53:19 seangrov` [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:54:40 plage [n=user@118.68.196.12] has joined #lisp 06:55:25 Good afternoon! 06:57:28 -!- Steg [n=steg55@host217-44-220-238.range217-44.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 06:57:34 hi there, I have *graphics-root* set to the pathname of a directory, and I am trying to make do the following: 06:58:00 (ensure-directories-exist (merge-pathnames (princ-to-string 2) (merge-pathnames (princ-to-string 1) *graphics-root*))) 06:58:26 this is a clumsy attempt to create a new subdirectory, and a new file in that directory. 06:59:00 e.g. (mkdir (format nil "/tmp/~a/~a.pid" *application-name* *application-pid*)) 06:59:19 however, I don't want to build the path with format strings (or maybe I do?) 06:59:52 what is the most portable way to create a pathname anyway? 07:00:47 i have a previous application that caused me nightmares after I peppered it strings as pathnames, fwiw 07:02:34 -!- seangrov` [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:05:52 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:07:02 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 07:08:00 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:09:13 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:12:48 pickles [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:33 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:15:36 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:16:09 "Complicated defaulting behaviour" 07:17:08 pathname strings are not allowed as a directory component 07:21:14 potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f661813-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 07:22:57 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:23:39 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-91-68.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:25:22 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:26:33 fucking pathnaems 07:27:55 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-67-237.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:33:06 *fusss* used format to build strings, yet again :-/ 07:33:16 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:42:03 I think along with unit tests, one should also write skeleton GC/clean up utilities for web application databases. for example, delete uploaded data from temp directory, or remove the data of long canceled clients, etc. 07:42:40 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 07:45:10 hmm I suspect that the various web frameworks incorporate such session management code, but I've not used any of the open source ones to confirm so far 07:45:16 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:36 not just session management, even long term database management. 07:46:08 PHPers typically use cron 07:56:44 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.68.31] has left #lisp 08:01:47 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:02:10 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.73.249] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:02:36 fusss: oh, heh, I tried MERGE-PATHNAMES. It worked. Then I tried to use its result with another call to MERGE-PATHNAMES and I couldn't figure it out. So I just used FORMAT 08:02:44 pathnames are insanely complex 08:02:50 yep 08:03:16 I am building pathnames with merge-pathnames, doing something to them, then serializing them to database with (namestring ...) 08:03:35 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-99-204.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:04:55 fusss: then you can just use FORMAT, since it won't be portable across OSs anyway 08:05:14 phadthai: one thing i just wrote is a database GC; I am storing images from users. images stay on file-system, but their paths in the db. GC process scans the image table for dead pointer (missing files) then warns me. if it did the reverse, scans the file system for missing corresponding records in db, it should just delete them silently. (in the first case we screwed up, in the second, we... 08:05:16 ...have real garbage) 08:06:41 mathrick: I have *app-root* and similar directory roots composed with #+win32 .. #-win32 feature detection. win32 sbcl and clozure are 95% unixy, no harm here. 08:08:38 fusss: so SBCL pathnames on windows use / as the separator? 08:08:45 mathrick: yep 08:08:51 even slime does 08:09:18 FOSS win32 Lisp is more Unixy than Perl 08:09:34 that must be fun if you want to take any pathnames from the user 08:09:51 they grok both 08:10:25 mathrick: most users using a unix app on windows are quite comfortable using / 08:10:42 and the rest of them don't know what a directory is anyway; everything just lands on their desktop. 08:10:48 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 08:11:03 -!- nuba [n=nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:12:16 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:12:22 fusss: oh 08:13:25 nuba [n=nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 08:15:29 plage` [n=user@118.68.196.12] has joined #lisp 08:15:59 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 08:25:35 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.164.47] has joined #lisp 08:25:43 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.196.12] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:25:48 -!- plage` is now known as plage 08:26:52 -!- Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:28:02 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-14805.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 08:34:46 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 08:36:00 -!- Bobrobyn [n=rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:36:42 Bobrobyn [n=rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 08:44:44 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:54:28 skald [n=skald@126-101-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:55 sadiquea1 [n=sadiquea@122.166.160.132] has joined #lisp 08:55:57 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.164.47] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:08:04 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 09:10:39 -!- pickles [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:11:28 mle: :) 09:13:53 fusss: I have something similar here although the delete operations happen on the db (where metadata/filenames are like in your case), and when an entry is deleted a postgresql trigger causes the entry to move to another table where a daemon occasionally cleans those out 09:14:24 phadthai: nice. my psql-fu is still weak 09:14:31 obviously with that every file operation must pass through the upper layer however 09:14:41 everything is done lisp-side, behind the orm 09:15:54 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:16:20 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:16:33 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@20.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 09:16:52 -!- potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f661813-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:17:05 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 09:18:24 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 09:21:53 -!- Yamazaki-kun [n=bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:31:59 OT, (cross-posted from #postgresql): 09:32:02 select * from table where bar not in ('1, '2', '3'); <-- what do you call that last item? is ('1, '2', '3') a set or a list or a collection or what? it's widely supported, but it's not in the ANSI SQL datatype tables that I have seen. can I create a record with that type? 09:32:22 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@248.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:33:22 sorry, answered 09:40:37 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:41:03 (query (:select :* :from :user :where (:in 'zipcode (:set "90210" "902111")))) 09:41:30 the hallmark of an ORM that doesn't suck, when it extends the database in logical, and expected ways 09:42:12 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:43:01 (select-dao 'user (:in 'zipcode (:set "90210"))) even betta 09:44:03 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f756d04.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:09 btw, do I need to learn "GIS" if I want to dabble in basic geographic information, like showing all the zipcodes in a state, or in the NE region of a state, or within a 50 mile radius of a point? 09:48:47 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:55:11 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit ["Client Quit"] 09:55:37 lichtblau [n=user@pD9542E20.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:59:55 plutonas` 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-!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:12:38 potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f666ce7-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 11:13:30 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 11:13:58 c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has joined #lisp 11:18:59 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 11:19:44 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Client Quit] 11:23:54 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 11:30:36 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:33:23 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:38:53 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:43:48 -!- skald0 [n=skald@20-65-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:50:40 fussit's better to do that, basic PostGIS functionality isn't hard 11:50:56 .. eh, too late, didn't notice quit message ^^; 11:55:24 sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 12:00:02 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-122-87.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:03:26 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-44-33.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:04:47 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-40-246.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 12:08:59 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@20.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:19:21 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-32-140.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:22:10 -!- [1]Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-210-210.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:35:56 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-213-153.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:36:05 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:36:14 gabnet 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[n=oijhif@92.82.65.236] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:03:20 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f756d04.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:03:22 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 13:04:42 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:12:24 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-29-106.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:13:57 pbusser [n=pbusser@82.174.238.138] has joined #lisp 13:17:49 -!- Younder [n=jthing@233.159.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:18:53 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:19:02 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 13:22:57 *Xach* feels the excitement in the air 13:24:08 is it cuttable with a knife, or possibly parens? 13:24:19 or is that just for tension 13:27:54 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-243-17.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:31 postamar [n=postamar@AMarseille-252-1-21-26.w83-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:32:23 It can be cut with a free four-hour block 13:34:22 -!- sadiquea1 [n=sadiquea@122.166.160.132] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:34:36 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 13:35:13 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.68.31] has joined #lisp 13:37:18 not much excitement here, except for being unable to travel home because highway _and_ trains are blocked by heavy snow :-( 13:37:24 More time for hacking, I guess. 13:39:44 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.68.31] has quit [Client Quit] 13:39:56 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.68.31] has joined #lisp 13:40:00 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.68.31] has quit [Client Quit] 13:40:07 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:40:14 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.68.31] has joined #lisp 13:41:44 -!- Alexandr [n=Alexandr@unaffiliated/alexandr] has quit ["    (xchat 2.4.5  )"] 13:42:03 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.68.31] has quit [Client Quit] 13:42:42 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.68.31] has joined #lisp 13:45:19 hello 13:45:29 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:48:19 I have a website running on sbcl + hunchentoot behind nginx 13:48:46 it is an extremely low profile site w/ just 1 visitor as of now ;) 13:48:55 however, now and again, I get a 500 response from nginx 13:49:18 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:24 then I log into the VPS where I'm hosting that site, get into slime, reconnect to swank and require my application again and things start to work 13:49:26 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:49:51 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:11 is there something like swank/hunchentoot dies after some timeout 13:50:16 or am I doing something wrong? 13:51:21 any pointers would be greatly helpful 13:52:17 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@82.174.238.138] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:52:38 spradnyesh: hmm, i haven't had any trouble like that 13:53:04 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 13:53:11 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/freenode/x-xfglkkfodhxcfcnq] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 13:53:46 lispm [n=joswig@g224123111.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:55:04 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:55:38 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 13:55:54 Xach: thanks for the reply, but that does not help :( 13:56:49 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:49 spradnyesh: Is the 500 error generated by nginx or by hunchentoot? 13:59:18 I would think nginx, coz hunchentoot is not available? I'm thinking this coz once I re-require my application, things start working again 13:59:35 so I would believe that nginx is working fine, but that either hunchentoot, or my app has died 13:59:39 how can I debug? 14:00:42 spradnyesh: if hunchentoot is not available, it will give a not-500 error, something like "bad upstream proxy" 14:00:47 503 maybe? 14:01:03 spradnyesh: hunchentoot normally keeps a logfile in /tmp 14:01:19 spradnyesh: i think you can increase debug output with some special variables - check the docs 14:01:22 hmmm, now that I've re-required my app and things are working fine, I guess I'll have to wait till I see that msg again 14:01:49 will check the logs 14:01:56 Xach: thanks for the help! 14:02:59 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439907.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:04:43 no problem! 14:04:53 i am working on a new hunchentoot website today 14:06:19 -!- vext01 [n=vext01@edd-sparc.kent.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:08:41 hunchentoot? That's disturbingly up to date for you, isn't it? 14:09:40 hunchentoot 0.15, perhaps 14:09:55 yep. i figured since i was starting a fresh new site i should use a fresh new hunchentoot 1.1.0. 14:10:29 *Xach* is writing a new search program for the naggum articles and hooking it up to the web 14:10:39 well, i'll do that as soon as the kids take a nap... 14:12:21 -!- lispm [n=joswig@g224123111.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:13:49 rouslan [n=rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 14:14:20 BrianB04 [n=BBommari@c-68-61-113-178.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:15 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 14:22:40 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Client Quit] 14:25:34 seamus_android [n=scratch@host86-180-146-119.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:25:48 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:28:00 does anyone know if Dmitry Kalyanov uses IRC, or some communication method other than email? 14:28:54 he seems to be active in working on CL-GTK2, but has totally disappeared from the mailing list and can't be reached by direct email either it seems 14:30:10 i see him in a jabber conference, but it's Russian 14:30:36 -!- rouslan [n=rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.4/20091111133509]"] 14:30:38 mathrick, CL-Gtk2 has any web site? 14:30:42 but that means that he can be reached via Jabber 14:30:51 araujo: yep 14:31:05 stassats: ooh, could you /msg me the details? 14:31:07 mathrick, where is it? 14:31:37 araujo: http://clgtk2.wordpress.com/ and http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-gtk2 14:31:59 thanks mathrick 14:32:07 no problem 14:33:21 knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has joined #lisp 14:33:54 funny how I join #lisp before I fire up the repl. 14:39:51 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.202.51] has joined #lisp 14:40:17 knobo: that's why God invented the auto-join list :) 14:41:11 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-91-68.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:41:50 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 14:46:10 *tcr* is using #!/usr/bin/clisp; quite nice experience! 14:47:41 tcr does slime debug produce better output now with clisp? 14:48:54 nope, I used an incremental edit-run cycle. the task was so easy that I didn't need to debug 14:49:57 it's just nice that clisp does the right thing with asserts, and errors if run as script. 14:51:19 OK. Lets try this again. I did 'clbuild install lispbuilder-sdl' and 'clbuild install cl-opengl'. Now SBCL gives me a 'sdl: component not found' error when doing (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :sdl) (which is what the SDL documentation says to do) 14:51:28 any ideas? 14:51:51 <_3b> which 'sdl documentation'? 14:52:41 i think he mean LB-SDL docs 14:53:01 err,a ctually its the clbuild docs 14:53:09 that say to do the (asdf:operate) 14:53:17 <_3b> do they say :sdl ? 14:53:26 oh wait i missed that 14:53:30 no, but all the sdl functions are sdl:xxx 14:53:31 ya thats wrong 14:53:36 <_3b> hint: try :lispbuilder-sdl 14:53:50 <_3b> asdf system names are independent from package names 14:54:16 :O ok that works 14:54:17 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 14:54:17 thanks 14:54:23 <_3b> package nicknames are even less useful for figuring out system names 14:55:15 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:56:39 redblue [i=star@ppp209.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:57:36 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-249.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:03:57 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:04:20 mathrick: (add-hook 'lisp-mode-hook 'erc-and-join-lisp-once) 15:06:53 Org 6.34 has a killer feature: opening all links within a node. 15:07:24 it kills your browser? 15:07:46 milanj [n=milan@109.93.205.147] has joined #lisp 15:08:16 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:08:18 Well, perhaps, if opening these links makes the OOM killer strike out your browser :-) 15:10:20 OT: just tapping in the the pool of opinionated polymaths in #lisp. What exactly is GIS good for, and is it worth learning for a generalist developer? 15:11:10 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:11:11 I mean, I know it has something to do with maps, geography and such, but all the GIS people I met were either university freshmen, or government bureaucrats. 15:11:18 fusss: if you are doing location-based searches, i.e. closest point-of-interest kind of stuff 15:11:56 or for example public transport or other transport routing kind of things 15:12:09 well, my application must allow someone to click on a map and drag out a radius; it should then draw a circle, and generate a list of all the zip codes within that radius. me needs GIS? 15:12:50 I am doing local advertising sales, down to the zip code level 15:12:51 hmm :/ 15:13:49 it's just indexing. if you can come up with a simple way of doing it without using r-trees or something similar, use the simpler method 15:13:50 I don't need GIS for that; I can just, oh, use an HTML image map 15:15:09 so how does one get started with GIS anyway? SDK? API? de facto standard application? 15:15:26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIS_software#Tasks_accomplished_with_GIS_software 15:15:41 i think there are extensions to mysql and/or postgresql for adding spatial indexes 15:15:41 *Xach* wrote an ESRI shapefile parser for some project 15:16:11 guaqua: postgres supports spatial data types natively 15:16:53 can it do radius searches etc? 15:16:58 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:18:26 guaqua: is radius searches supposed to be an standard database feature? 15:18:35 I would expect programmers to do that in their own code 15:18:38 for spatial data types? I'd have said so 15:19:02 otherwise the code reduces to "loop for all points of interest when (< (dist point query)) collect point" 15:19:07 which is O(N) instead of something smaller 15:19:53 any pointers on "GIS for The Definitive Guide"; some kind of Safari book? 15:19:54 kenyao [n=kenyao@58.248.188.28] has joined #lisp 15:20:34 knobo: I'm in #lisp all the time, so I just use the auto-join list 15:20:36 generating all zip codes within a radius of a point is not a trivial operation; what that means is "which of these complicated shapes intersect this circle", and you don't really want to be scanning all shapes in your database for that. 15:20:38 fusss: dunno. i've just thought of gis as means of efficient indexing and lookup when handling coordinates 15:20:48 and the data sets, are you supposed to search for them, or build them yourself (as in securities market data) or are they freely available? 15:21:36 (but areas seem to be of interest aswell, so i really don't know much) 15:21:44 also, if I may, is there some kind of standard ANSI/OSI/Posix library/SDK/API for this stuff? 15:21:49 fusss: have you looked up PostGIS? 15:23:31 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:23:40 tsuru: no. I am just trying to figure out what "GIS" is. Is it a generic technique/approach, an umbrella terms used by many (perhaps different) things like "OLAP". Or is it something specific, like "OpenGL"? 15:24:22 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 15:24:27 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-187-239.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:24:59 hello! is there any library for CL that adds generators to it? so I could, for example, do (mapcar #'fn sequence (0 ..)) and it will map to sequence + (0 1 2 3 etc) 15:25:35 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit [Client Quit] 15:25:59 fusss: no it's not a standard like OpenGL...see: http://egsc.usgs.gov/isb/pubs/gis_poster/ 15:26:07 freiksenet: Cltl2 has generators, yes 15:26:26 minion: tell freiksenet about series 15:26:27 freiksenet: look at series: Series is a Library for operating on series, a data structure similar to a sequence. http://www.cliki.net/series 15:27:18 fe[nl]ix: does it integrate well with sequences? can I mapcar on series and a sequence at the same time? 15:27:29 freiksenet: no 15:27:40 that's annoying :( 15:28:00 -!- kenyao [n=kenyao@58.248.188.28] has quit [Client Quit] 15:28:12 mapcar only works on lists anyway 15:28:45 freiksenet: but you can use MAP (not sure about series) but for sequences, yes 15:28:46 freiksenet: you can construct a series from a list/vector 15:29:04 tsuru: that looks like a rich resource, thanks :-) 15:29:07 there are other generator libraries around, not just series. I think Matthew Swank even had one that integrated with sbcl's generalized sequences 15:29:55 Krystof: thanks, I'll try to find it 15:31:15 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 15:32:39 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 15:35:21 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:38:44 lpolzer__: herep? 15:39:54 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.196.12] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:46:33 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c134-15.icpnet.pl] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:47:42 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:48:38 AndChat- [n=AndChat@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:19 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:59:23 andreas2 [n=andreas@pD4B9E90B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:31 Moin! 15:59:47 -!- andreas2 is now known as andreas 16:01:22 hefner [n=user@ppp-61-90-102-76.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 16:04:52 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.73.249] has joined #lisp 16:06:30 I have weird problem with remote slime. 16:07:05 I do a slime-connect, which looks successful, but I don't get an interaction buffer. 16:07:17 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has left #lisp 16:08:08 andreas: do you have (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) in your .emacs? 16:08:35 No... let me try this. 16:09:08 -!- AndChat- [n=AndChat@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:09:15 marioxcc [n=user@200.77.65.198] has joined #lisp 16:09:31 I do habe a (slime-setup) of course, but without the fance. 16:09:34 "fancy" 16:10:41 Now it loads eldoc in addition. 16:10:47 Otherwise the same behaviour. 16:11:21 did you restart emacs? 16:11:57 Sure... emacs 22.2.1 on Ubuntu 9.04, slime 2010-01-06 on client side, sbcl 1.0.34 on server side btw. 16:12:08 Hm. 16:12:22 Maybe I should take care I'm using a recent swank on the other side... 16:12:39 they should be of the same version 16:13:43 I'll take care of that before complaining more. :) Thanks... 16:14:32 slime would've warned you if they're with different dates 16:18:24 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 16:20:28 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 16:22:33 -!- hefner [n=user@ppp-61-90-102-76.revip.asianet.co.th] has left #lisp 16:23:03 -!- lichtblau [n=user@pD9542E20.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:34:22 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:35:19 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:37:03 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:25 BrianB04_ [n=BBommari@c-68-61-113-178.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:35 sugarshark [n=ole@p4FDAAE51.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:46:19 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 16:47:29 BrianB04__ [n=BBommari@c-68-61-113-178.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:46 -!- BrianB04__ [n=BBommari@c-68-61-113-178.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:50:46 I haven't seen this before; someone should post it to /r/lisp please http://www.cawtech.demon.co.uk/clos/define-method-combination.html 16:50:59 tcr: ping 16:53:51 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:54:14 Kaz implements C style pointers in half a page of Lisp. here is another take: http://www.cawtech.demon.co.uk/lisp/locative.txt 16:54:22 -!- BrianB04_ [n=BBommari@c-68-61-113-178.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:55:02 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp209.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 16:55:50 'morning 16:56:13 hi Fade 16:59:01 redblue [i=star@ppp182.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:59:07 does SBCL have handy utilities for heap-scavenging? e.g. (all-objects-do (obj) ...) ? 16:59:21 right now I'd just like to get a list of all instances of INET-SOCKET that exist in the heap 17:00:23 sb-vm::map-allocated-objects ? 17:00:48 thanks! 17:00:57 *kpreid* digs up an example 17:01:19 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:48 kpreid pasted "something I did with map-allocated-objects" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93209 17:02:03 -!- BrianB04 [n=BBommari@c-68-61-113-178.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:02:23 lukego: this is something I wrote using it: it counts the mean number of closed-over values in closures whose function name contains "$" 17:02:53 cool :) 17:03:13 note that some of the objects you get may be oddballs: expect stuff that you would think is true in general not to be 17:03:36 madnificent [n=user@83.101.31.9] has joined #lisp 17:03:51 *kpreid* can't say any more than that, he did this ... 2.8 years ago! 17:05:05 bloody hell :) ~30ms to traverse the dynamic heap of 1.5M objects 17:06:11 Zephyrus__ [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:06:40 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:07:03 -!- Zephyrus__ is now known as Zephyrus 17:08:19 `m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.31.9] has joined #lisp 17:08:26 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:11:39 lukego: i wonder what optimization lesson can be drawn from that info 17:11:51 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:12:13 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:12:13 Xach: for one thing, it's probably not worth indexing the heap :) 17:13:01 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 17:13:15 Xach: actually I use this functionality all the time in smalltalk, like "myclass allInstances do: [...]" 17:13:53 <_3b> if i want to push things onto a list, and pop them from a possibly different thread safely (and portably), is there some lib that would handle that for me, or should i just use bx-threads directly? 17:14:14 and now what I want is basically (do-instances (s inet-socket) (socket-close s)) 17:14:16 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@20.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:14:59 lovewhodsrvu [n=hisha_et@41.234.191.172] has joined #lisp 17:15:06 -!- lovewhodsrvu [n=hisha_et@41.234.191.172] has left #lisp 17:15:10 lukego: *why*? 17:15:11 though it's not so fun to hit an error inside map-allocated-objects. I wonder what's allowed and what isn't (can I cons? must I *gc-inhibit*?) 17:15:52 lukego: does allInstances scavenge the heap ? 17:15:55 kpreid: because I have some old resources allocated that I want to flush. in particular a listen socket on a port that I want to reuse 17:16:03 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:16:07 felix: in Squeak I'm pretty sure it does 17:17:27 _3b, many lisps provide some sort of atomic push/pop, although you can still get concurrency bugs with just those. You might want to look at ChanL. 17:18:08 lukego: well, I hope that's just for interactive use 17:18:10 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@158.245.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:18:42 it's for use at any time that seems appropriate :) 17:18:43 -!- Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:19:21 <_3b> Adlai: yeah, don't want to write any implementation specific code at the moment though 17:19:37 _3b: ChanL sits on top of bordeaux-threads. 17:19:58 so it's as portable as BT is. 17:19:59 <_3b> with chanl, can i read and write without blocking? 17:20:09 yes 17:20:16 <_3b> ok, that probably works then 17:20:36 you can pass an extra argument to channels which will make them work more like CAS (try to do this, report success) 17:21:19 *_3b* wants as little thought involved in this part as possible :p 17:21:21 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-213-101.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:21:42 it's pretty simple :) 17:21:50 kpreid: Helmut wrote the most scary heap-walking code I've seen. it was to build an xref index by pulling apart all the code objects in the heap :) not sure if it's still in slime. 17:22:22 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.31.9] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:23:07 chanl might be overkill, though 17:23:58 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B1B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:57 _3b: portably, I think you have to wrap your stuff with mutexes (or reader writer lock if bx thread offers those)... 17:24:57 nullman [n=nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:09 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:26:19 <_3b> pkhuong: yeah, trying to avoid thinking about it that much though if possible :) 17:26:34 Does anyone know why http://dwim.hu/ is down? 17:27:46 a-s [n=user@93.112.122.84] has joined #lisp 17:31:10 pbusser it is very frequently down :( bother attila about it 17:32:39 _3b: (make-instance 'stack-channel) (pexec () (send * "test")) (pexec () (print (recv **))) 17:33:02 <_3b> sykopomp: won't that block? 17:33:16 it will block on recv (in this case), but not on send. 17:33:22 the stack-channel can grow unbounded. 17:33:28 so you can push as much as you want into it. 17:33:33 <_3b> right, i need no blocking anywhere... might only have 1 thread 17:33:41 (recv ** nil) will not block. 17:33:51 -!- milanj [n=milan@109.93.205.147] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:33:53 <_3b> :blockp nil you mean? 17:34:23 _3b: unportably, nikodemus has nice code ;) 17:34:54 oh sorry, yes. :blockp nil 17:36:15 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:56 -!- seamus_android [n=scratch@host86-180-146-119.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:39:08 <_3b> sykopomp: any way to empty it, or get all of current contents at once, aside from just looping on recv? 17:39:55 c|mell: I hope he isn't running a Lisp HTTP server. ;-) 17:40:06 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:40:31 c|mell, pbusser, we finally have a vps in a production server... 2-3 days and it'll be back, hopefully more stable than this 17:40:38 *attila_lendvai* needs to run 17:40:56 attila_lendvai: Ok. 17:41:46 _3b: There's no atomic way to empty the buffer, no. That's not a bad idea, though. 17:48:18 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:50:58 -!- andreas [n=andreas@pD4B9E90B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:57:14 noob question. what's the opposite of (char-code #\a) ? i want to do (fun 65) -> #\a 17:57:26 code-chr 17:57:29 code-char 18:00:16 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 18:00:58 hrm, now i broke output encoding 18:02:14 i was trying to write a non-breakable space (code 160) so excel won't convert my numbers into scientific notation 18:02:27 output to stream is fussing over :ascii 18:02:48 well, duh 18:02:54 non-breakable space is not in ASCII 18:04:36 yeah, i consider 0-255 ascii :P 18:04:46 lisp and i don't always agree ;] 18:05:11 ascii is 0-127 18:05:20 I expect that you are often disappointed with reality. 18:06:22 i am. 18:06:42 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 18:07:05 -!- morphling_ [n=stefan@gssn-5f756d04.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:08:27 -!- `m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.31.9] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:09:18 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-213-101.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:10:36 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-27-42-88.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:11:19 postamar_ [n=postamar@AMarseille-252-1-21-26.w83-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:11:19 -!- postamar [n=postamar@AMarseille-252-1-21-26.w83-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:11:26 -!- postamar_ is now known as postamar 18:15:12 davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:36 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.68.31] has left #lisp 18:19:21 fe[nl]ix: I'll be available in ~30min 18:20:23 mstevens [n=mstevens@81.2.103.24] has joined #lisp 18:22:35 francogrex [n=user@126.141-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 18:23:07 Demosthenes: utf-8 is good, really 18:23:19 LATIN1 and ANSI are unpredictable 18:23:25 I'm experimenting with a way to improve my programming skills which seem to have halted, having read a few books and having applied to some of my work 18:23:56 What do you think if I take publisshed CL codes and translate them to C? 18:24:14 francogrex: there is a giant book (1k pages) of hardcore systems programming arcana 18:24:20 let me get it for ya 18:24:31 fusss: ok 18:25:27 fusss: so how will it help? I need style improvement as well/especially, that's why the idea of translating top quality CL code will help me understand them 18:25:49 they need to be short programs though 18:26:00 it's just a book of examples + questions 18:26:19 ok I'd like to have it pls if you can get it 18:26:25 would be great 18:28:16 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-99-204.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:28:39 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-26-107-29.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 18:28:51 francogrex: good luck translating them correctly 18:29:07 you might need to learn german and then read the sources to clisp :P 18:29:18 oh, you might already know german :) 18:29:49 francogrex: behold! http://www.jjj.de/fxt/fxtbook.pdf 18:30:12 if i recall correctly, clisp's sources are no longer commented in German 18:31:03 rahul: where did he says he was translating CLISP specifically? I read it as any CL code. 18:31:25 francogrex: if you're bored, you can make sure cl-build works on ABCL :-) 18:31:34 It's cool to have code commented in German. 18:31:36 errr, asdf-install, and non shell utils 18:32:17 -!- starseeker_ [n=CY@96.234.232.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:33:01 francogrex: fun book, eh? :-) 18:33:20 fusss: where else is he going to learn how to implement lisp functions as C correctly? 18:33:35 GNU Emacs 18:33:36 well, I guess he could look at ECL but I'm not famiuliar enough with its source to know 18:33:42 stassats`: hell no 18:33:45 stassats`: I said correctly :) 18:34:09 he is better off studying Sacla, I know I have :-) 18:34:45 http://homepage1.nifty.com/bmonkey/lisp/sacla/index-en.html 18:34:52 fusss: how will that help him learn how to write it in C? 18:35:16 an infinite stack of turtles is not a plant 18:35:23 rahul: where did he say he wants to improve is *C* skills? 18:35:34 reading comprehension, people! 18:35:54 fusss: why else would he want to learn how to write C code? 18:36:21 To write a Lisp interpreter, so he can improve his Lisp skills perhaps? 18:36:35 pbusser: well, that doesn't improve lisp skills at all 18:36:47 that just teaches him one set of tradeoffs in implementing lisp 18:36:52 rahul: lisp->C rewriting is just an exercise to improve his programming, overall. 18:36:56 and probably the wrong set of tradeoffs 18:37:22 fusss: heh, well, then I don't see how that will achieve his goal :) 18:37:38 it will make him a better C programmer, for sure. 18:38:08 rahul: So will learning Lisp. :-) 18:38:21 *fusss* just discovered Knuth's MMIX was roman numeral for "2009". FFFUUUUU 18:38:38 hmm 18:38:46 how do I add an item to the end of a list? 18:39:02 'z to '('x 'y) becoming '('x 'y 'z) for example 18:39:03 Hergonan: APPEND? 18:39:15 thanks 18:39:16 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 18:39:59 jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-34-77.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:40:18 Hergonan: there are other ways to do that as well, depending on what kind of "list" your list is 18:40:24 Hergonan: you need to learn what QUOTE does, too 18:40:40 yes, QUOTE != LIST 18:40:46 Hergonan: you are sorely misinterpreting what is going on there 18:40:57 (list 'x 'y 'z) 18:41:13 Hergonan: try this: (first (first '('a))) 18:41:14 yeah I know quote we talked about this earlier 18:41:23 no, you have no clue what quote is 18:41:40 quote is anti eval? 18:41:52 fusss: seems a good book yes 18:41:57 if you write '('a 'b) then you have no clue what it's doing 18:42:14 Hergonan: right, so you're protecting against eval of what's evalled 18:42:15 Hergonan: try: (mapcar (function type-of) '('a 'b)) 18:42:16 rahul: how come 18:42:40 adeht: because... 18:42:41 but that will teach me more C and lisp 18:43:01 adeht: if you don't know what's odd about '('a 'b), then you need to learn what quote does, too :) 18:43:04 alright I'll write examples properly next time, I was just being lazy and wrong :p 18:43:14 rahul: there's nothing odd about it.. untypical maybe 18:43:21 Hergonan: no, you were not being lazy. you were typing extra crap :) 18:43:35 ' takes less time than list! 18:43:45 I mean, less keypresses 18:43:45 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-27-42-88.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:43:51 Hergonan: erm, there was no need for any of the quotes 18:44:01 Hergonan: the correct way to talk about a list is (a b) 18:44:27 okay 18:44:28 Hergonan: you should have asked, how do I add z to (x y) to get (x y z) 18:44:39 thanks I'll do that from now on :p 18:44:47 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-118-129.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:44:48 the quote is there for when you're putting literals into _code_ 18:45:01 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:45:09 look at the result of typing '(x y) at the REPL, for example. there is no quote in it 18:45:46 rahul: I read what you wrote above, you think if I take a top quality lisp code and translate it to C it will improve my C programming? I would have though the reverse 18:45:50 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:04 francogrex: it won't teach you anything about lisp, for sure 18:46:06 anyway, my plan is to do it both ways 18:46:18 francogrex: it will just teach you a bad way of implementing a lisp compiler 18:46:34 francogrex please look at "english into japanese into english" 18:46:35 francogrex: it will improve your appreciation of Lisp, if you translate it well 18:46:42 francogrex: (since you will not compile it to C in any way resembling optimal) 18:46:56 heh, lispgrish 18:47:03 adeht: hehe very true :) 18:47:05 francogrex: why not work through PAIP to improve your Lisp? 18:47:16 and programming 18:47:19 yes, PAIP would teach you GOOD lisp programming 18:48:20 francogrex: basically, looking at lisp through the lens of C will teach you how to use both badly 18:48:20 >> yes tha's my fear 18:48:35 tsuru: I'm having nightmare about PAIP 18:48:45 why? 18:48:50 if PAIP scares you, then you realy need to learn what it teaches 18:48:51 rahul: you may be right there 18:49:08 tsuru: let me tell you why 18:49:25 take any chapter from 4 until 27 or whetever 18:49:48 for say a beginner this is not the best book at all 18:49:51 why? 18:50:23 no, it's perfect for a beginner 18:50:34 you're not a beginner, that is the problem :) 18:50:36 okay... well then going down the totem pole... there's SICP and Gentle Introduction... 18:50:40 your cup is full 18:50:41 all functions / routines etc are embedded within one another; it's a mesh, a web; what is needed is just a simple short program 18:51:01 huh 18:51:13 SICP is an introduction to Scheme, not Common Lisp. 18:51:14 francogrex: PAIP's programs are about as simple and short as they come 18:51:24 And it's a rather outdated book at that. 18:51:27 francogrex: most programs are around 1 million lines of code 18:51:28 what paip will teach you is how to implement AI algorithms in Lisp 18:51:45 francogrex: did it teach you that? 18:51:45 francogrex: no, it will tell you how to structure code so that programs can grow over time 18:51:53 which is an oxymloron because that's what the book is supposed to do! 18:52:05 "AI algorithms" are no different from anything else 18:52:30 the algorithms in that book are useful for stock order management systems 18:52:58 if you think the software behind e-trade is AI, I don't know what planet you're on :) 18:52:58 rahul: I'm talking about simple programs; example algos to solve problems of project euler 18:53:10 francogrex: trivial code is trivial 18:53:12 doh! 18:53:14 just do it. 18:53:43 do waht? 18:53:49 code it 18:54:06 if you don't care for making an application, then just write the code you want 18:54:15 style is about communication and extensibility 18:54:32 so that others can understand the code and make it do things it didn't do originally 18:54:33 I do want good style, very important 18:54:46 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:15 francogrex: then you are going to have to read code... even if it's on a topic that you might not be interested in at the time ("AI") 18:55:25 you can reach a solution of a problem using 200 lines of code, while a good programmer does it in 2 lines and his runs 200 times faster 18:55:42 francogrex: I suspect you have not read PAIP.. the most valuable thing it taught me is exactly good Lisp style 18:56:09 -!- a-s [n=user@93.112.122.84] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:56:14 adeht: yes it teaches that. 18:56:36 francogrex: style is about knowing when the 200 line solution will be faster 10 years from now when you have 100x as much data as before and needed to change all the representations 18:56:39 francogrex: that's a programmer who's acquainted with a standard 18:56:54 language standard 18:57:29 stassats: yes it's frustrates me that I'm not yet that sort of programmer (not acquainted) 18:57:37 so read PAIP!! 18:57:43 makes me think, what defines a TOP programmer? 18:57:46 and then start hacking 18:57:49 everything takes time 18:58:03 francogrex: experience, wisdom, intelligence 18:58:14 francogrex: instead of thinking about these kind of definitions, I suggest you meditate on the ones in PAIP :) 18:58:24 analytical ability to break a problem down and see patterns in there 18:58:30 -!- sugarshark [n=ole@p4FDAAE51.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 18:58:42 rahul: ok ; but is there like some tournaments/competitions where people are rated? 18:58:47 of course, the patterns will only be visible to you if you've seen them before 18:58:51 francogrex: no 18:59:02 francogrex: there are algorithmic ones 18:59:19 francogrex: is there a competition where musicians are rated? 18:59:25 mostly useless when it comes to programming as a whole 18:59:30 grammy! 18:59:33 heh 18:59:38 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:41 stassats`: there are even more these days! 18:59:58 does winning american idol mean you're the best singer in the world? 19:00:03 adeht: you mean I'm wasting my time instead of crying my eyeballs out trying to undesratnd how to write a scheme compiler (chpater 23) 19:00:09 does it matter that you're the best singer if you can't write a song? 19:00:12 francogrex: exactly 19:00:16 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229134154.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:00:41 a-s [n=user@93.112.122.84] has joined #lisp 19:00:42 francogrex: if that makes you cry, I suggest you find a different career 19:01:06 or maybe change directions to writing accounting software or something 19:01:09 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:01:51 rahul: yes.. programmers don't care about "top programmers"; managers do.. 19:02:06 well, I'll try PAIP again now, just because you inssist; I'll go back to ch 4 (GPS) where I got stuck yesterday 19:02:20 Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 19:02:43 francogrex: if you got stuck there, what were you doing reading ch 23? 19:02:52 should I just "read" or do I try the examples in my lisp??? or what else? 19:02:56 both 19:02:58 try them 19:03:06 the examples are very important 19:03:08 also, solve the exercises 19:03:21 without actually coding, you will have no deep understanding 19:03:32 rahul: wanted to check out the way to write interpreter/compiler 19:04:10 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@158.245.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:04:13 adeht: ok, the solutions are published in the book? I don't recall seeing them 19:04:26 some are 19:04:27 You think you know when you can learn, are more sure when you can write, even more when you can teach, but certain when you can program. 19:04:31 http://www.cs.yale.edu/quotes.html 19:04:35 francogrex: by saying "solve" I mean solve them yourself 19:04:51 francogrex: why do you need to read a solution? 19:04:58 you will know when your code is right 19:05:04 if you can't tell, then you can't code 19:05:18 fe[nl]ix: Took a tad bit longer; how can I help you? 19:05:23 figure out a set of test cases that covers the things your code is trying to do 19:05:25 rahul: to compare his answers with norvigs 19:05:35 xristos: which is irrelevant 19:05:42 style is not imitation 19:05:46 it is not irrelevant if there are multiple approaches 19:05:50 for the hard stuff it may be interesting to compare solutions, so _after_ you solved some hard exercise you can post your solution and ask here and maybe someone else can post his, etc. 19:06:07 Axius [n=oijhif@92.85.218.23] has joined #lisp 19:06:16 xristos: 2/100 is close to 1/100 19:06:21 but rahul: as I said, doing project euler problems, I always arrive at a solution. But my code SUCKS big time, when I see the solutions of others, brings tears to my eyes 19:06:28 tcr: how does one use xref.lisp ? 19:06:39 francogrex: so read PAIP and learn one aspect of coding style 19:07:02 francogrex: however, no book on serious programming will teach you how to solve toy problems 19:07:15 adeht: ok, I take that as a committment 19:07:17 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-26-107-29.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:07:25 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-14805.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:07:29 francogrex: PAIP starts at the toy solution and grows it to something real 19:07:30 francogrex: that was not a committment 19:07:34 fe[nl]ix: run xref-files 19:07:57 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-8413.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 19:08:09 francogrex: if you find someone else's code superior, don't pummel yourself for being 'stupid', figure out what he/she did better and internalize it if it's that great. 19:08:12 fe[nl]ix: it's like etags except that instead of storing the results in a TAGS file, it stores it in a hash-table in the running image 19:08:12 francogrex: c.l.l has some threads about some of the exercises 19:08:33 francogrex: and looking at code will never teach you how to write it 19:08:34 ok I'll check cll 19:08:38 as I said, imitation is not style 19:08:48 style is in the process. 19:08:59 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:09:10 madnificent [n=user@83.101.31.9] has joined #lisp 19:09:37 being able to sing a britney spears song is not style. being able to write a song that catches someone's ear is style 19:09:48 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:10:07 francogrex: heh... that feeling of looking at somebody elses code and realizing you suck at programmer never goes away BTW, so get used to it and steal from the best! 19:10:15 suck at programming* 19:10:30 all programs suck and all programmers suck 19:10:46 we have no idea what we're doing, honestly 19:10:56 it's just that no one else has any better idea :) 19:11:11 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:11:25 (and when someone does, the problem is solved, and we move on to the next one) 19:11:36 programming is continuous, raw creativity 19:11:36 i got that feeling even if i'm looking at my own code 19:12:07 if you're not being creative, you might as well download the code that already exists and run it. 19:12:34 that's being rational 19:12:40 stassats`: true enough... i look at my own code an realize i suck at programming too :) 19:12:54 heh 19:13:47 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 19:13:52 i find it educational in moments to talk myself back from the edge by going back to look at what I was doing n time ago and compare/contrast to what I'm doing now. 19:13:53 drewc: well good to know that Ill always feel shit :P 19:14:00 .oO(Ah. At least I'm improving.) 19:14:14 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 19:14:23 francogrex: c'est la vie :) 19:14:56 if it's not impossible, it's not worth doing. 19:14:59 the lisper's motto 19:15:22 *stassats`* is writing warp drive in lisp 19:15:31 PAIP is mostly about solving programs that were considered impossible at the time 19:15:44 -!- davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:15:53 the GPS is still considered impossible :) 19:16:04 global positioning system 19:16:04 ? 19:16:11 general problem solver 19:16:12 general problem solver 19:16:13 oh. 19:16:17 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:24 that GPS was considered impossible at one time, too :) 19:16:31 -!- postamar [n=postamar@AMarseille-252-1-21-26.w83-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 19:17:35 Hergonan: global positioning system is LISP? Let me take that on; I feel it'll be a piece of cake 19:17:56 i missed the ironic :P at the end 19:18:29 i use :p literally :p 19:18:50 as a keyword? 19:19:08 no, but it means I'm sticking my tongue out in real life 19:19:31 nevermind =/ 19:19:34 heh 19:20:01 usually we use :test in lisp when we want to parametrize what's before the p ;) 19:21:24 I think I could do with some of PAIP's impossible problem solving examples 19:21:32 *Guthur* regrets not extending that loan 19:22:25 PAIP is something to purchase, not borrow 19:23:02 Its a decent library would be a shame not to use it 19:24:00 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 19:25:18 115. Most people find the concept of programming obvious, but the doing impossible. 19:25:25 rahul: the University Library has a copy of PAIP, almost no one checks it out 19:26:03 I have my own copy, but I might as well have used the one of the library almost forever 19:26:37 I think I will get it out again 19:27:12 minion: advice on programming? 19:27:12 #11909: Bad programmer! No cookie! 19:27:20 :( 19:27:58 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [""""] 19:28:32 huh? you just coded that! 19:28:33 I want to go from prefix to infix, and I think it covered that, could save me some work 19:28:51 Guthur; chapter 7 if I recall wwell 19:28:53 francogrex: no 19:29:17 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:29:27 minion: advice on error? 19:29:27 #11910: I see you omitted $! from the error message. It won't tell you what went wrong if you don't ask it to. 19:30:03 francogrex: see? minion knows a lot of advices 19:30:57 well minion is a swell guy :P 19:31:19 -!- Axius [n=oijhif@92.85.218.23] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:31:38 minion: advice on cooking? 19:31:38 #11909: Bad programmer! No cookie! 19:31:40 hehe 19:32:01 minion is a little confused 19:32:14 nicdev [n=user@umass-958-178.wireless.umass.edu] has joined #lisp 19:32:25 minion: advice on scoring with hot chicks? 19:32:25 #11952: In my experience that is a bad strategy, because the people who ask such questions are the ones who paste the answer into their program without understanding it and then complain that it `does not work'. 19:32:45 hmm, makes you think 19:33:03 minion: advice on boiling an egg? 19:33:03 #11952: In my experience that is a bad strategy, because the people who ask such questions are the ones who paste the answer into their program without understanding it and then complain that it `does not work'. 19:33:15 lol 19:33:40 well let's not fuck with minion; he's a good guy 19:34:15 that's from http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.perl.misc/msg/b2f911d6d9c5cef2?pli=1 19:36:03 -!- Bobrobyn [n=rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:37:23 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.31.9] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:37:48 ok guys need to finish some statistical simulation for work for tomrrow; I'll be back once I'm done. 19:37:53 madnificent [n=user@83.101.31.9] has joined #lisp 19:38:17 -!- francogrex [n=user@126.141-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has left #lisp 19:41:23 minion: advice on C++? 19:41:23 #12000: Looking for a compiler bug is the second-to-last resort. The last resort is blaming bad RAM. It's never the correct hypothesis. 19:41:45 oh, it gave a better one before, shame 19:41:46 please, don't play with minion 19:41:52 sorry 19:41:54 -!- nicdev [n=user@umass-958-178.wireless.umass.edu] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:41:56 couldn't resist 19:42:48 ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-67-201.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:52:34 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:55:20 Buganini_ [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 19:56:33 francogrex [n=user@126.141-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 19:56:45 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 19:57:01 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:58:01 I'll ask a lisp question for a change: (iter (for i in mylistofstrings) (count "string-1")) or (loop for i in mylistofstrings count "string-1"): can one set a :test #'equal to count? 19:58:45 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-187-239.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:59:11 (loop for i in mylistofstrings count (equal i "string-1")) 19:59:14 obviously 19:59:29 or (count "string-1" list :test #'equal) 20:00:05 COUNT would work on sequences 20:01:11 stassats; sure was obvious; silly me. thnaks 20:02:07 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-91-68.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:02:07 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-210-210.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:22 francogrex: It's a very valid question with other accumulation clauses, and the answer is unfortunately no one cannot 20:03:14 like when (equal "string-1" i) collect i ? 20:03:23 I was about to say 20:03:37 when (equal "string-1"i) count t 20:04:12 -!- sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 20:04:17 "accumulation clause" is probably the wrong word but I mean something like (loop for compound-object in objects maximize by #'accessor) 20:04:44 iterate can do that 20:05:23 cl-utilities contains the function EXTREMUM. I'd love to see that in alexandria 20:06:01 i'd like to see cl-utilities un-subsume split-sequence. 20:06:33 konr [n=user@189.96.195.134] has joined #lisp 20:07:21 I think everyone should add SPLIT-SEQUENCE as a nickname to every package 20:08:12 the proposed hack to push split-sequence-deprecated onto *features* doesn't seem to work. 20:08:39 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:09:23 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.31.9] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:10:58 Fade: was it a problem with usocket ? 20:11:04 yeah 20:11:15 what version ? 20:11:27 it's the only common lib that seemed to switch to cl-utilities split-sequence 20:12:39 its last release, 0.4.1, depends on split-sequence 20:13:57 i pulled down a checkout yesterday or the day before and had the issue. 20:14:28 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-118-129.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:14:28 last checkin was 2007-01-07 20:14:43 but i'm not that familiar with subversion. 20:14:43 2007? 20:14:48 er, 2010 20:14:59 fingers. bad. 20:18:01 revision 517 20:18:06 abugosh1 [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:23:08 alxconn [n=alxconn@c-24-15-46-226.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:23 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1548.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:24:50 [1]Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp121-45-5-233.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:09 -!- francogrex [n=user@126.141-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:27:14 I'm trying to install Paragent and having a lisp-related problem trying to access the database code... Any clues? 20:28:24 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:28:56 alxconn: absent clairvoyance, we cannot tell without more information. 20:29:02 alxconn: i believe Jasko might help 20:29:02 perhaps paste the lisp error. 20:29:14 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-210-210.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:29:24 abugosh2 [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:30:07 Fade: try to delete the fasls and recompile cl-utilities. worked here 20:30:32 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 20:30:37 i'll give it a shot when I build my next clean image. I'm up to my elbows in half finished work in my own system. 20:30:57 changing the usocket asd fixed the problem at the time. 20:31:27 sorry, error message is: debugger invoked on a ASDF:MISSING-DEPENDENCY in thread #: 20:31:28 component :DB not found, required by # 20:31:49 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 20:32:11 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:32:29 Scarab is located in /lisp/repos/scarab and the DB stuff it's trying to run is in /lisp/repos/db 20:32:42 Lisp interpreter (if it matters) is SBCL 20:33:40 You don't have the :db package. 20:33:47 push the location of db onto asdf:*central-registry* 20:33:57 nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:19 or make a link to db's .asd file in a directory that's already on that registry. 20:36:24 -!- abugosh1 [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:36:30 I have 2 symlinks in /usr/lib/sbcl/site-systems that pint to /lisp and /lisp/repos *.asd's... Let me see if they brought the db.asd file in... 20:36:37 pbusser: system, rather 20:37:09 Ok, yeah, no db.asd... That's probably the problem then =) 20:37:13 asdf won't recurse into subdirs, they have to be literally pointed out. 20:37:51 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 20:38:36 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 20:39:12 Yeah; manual says to us symlinks with find command, but for some reason they didn't bring in /lisb/repos/db/*.asd so I added that... 20:39:23 Now to see if that works =) (crosses fingers) 20:40:26 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-29-106.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:41:11 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 20:42:03 alxconn: you'd better make sure that you have permission to write in /lisp/repos/db 20:42:23 well, read/write 20:42:44 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 20:42:50 Fade, Currently running as Root... Will eventually worry about security but not atm ;-) 20:43:06 i wonder why find failed. 20:43:27 Error in instructions, didn't have -maxdepth right 20:43:37 ah 20:44:02 i can't believe we let "Lisp interpreter (if it matters) is SBCL" go by without comment! :D 20:44:30 drewc: Where's that? 20:44:39 drewc, Feel free to comment now, I'm a complete lisp n00b 20:44:46 -!- Buganini_ is now known as Buganini 20:44:47 there's only so much pedantry available in each person in each 24 hour period. :) 20:44:56 well, i just got here :) 20:44:59 drewc: nvm 20:45:05 alxconn: sbcl is a compiler. it is not an interpreter. 20:45:05 maybe he's using sb-ext::*evaluator-mode* :interpret 20:45:16 alxconn: i highly doubt you are using the SBCL interpreter... 20:45:17 in the common casde. 20:45:24 s/casde/case 20:46:05 alxconn: SBCL is a "compile-only" implementation. That means that it ruthlessly compiles everything and the kitchen sink. 20:46:09 alxconn: it's not available by default, you specifically have to ask for it.. SBCL compiles to machine code by default :) 20:46:18 w00t, compilation! 20:46:44 (as in it's working) 20:46:59 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 20:47:01 do not be surprised, just remember the process that got you to this point. 20:47:02 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 20:47:04 Interesting, that's the one they told me to use, probably because it's listening on ports... 20:47:29 Thanks a ton! 20:47:46 of course, that word (compilation) probably doesn't mean what you think it means, but i don't want to use up my daily pedantry pool.... :P 20:47:55 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Client Quit] 20:47:56 good idea. :) 20:48:02 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 20:48:09 also, see, "Son, you can't piss up every tree." 20:48:14 ;) 20:48:14 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:48:43 Lol, well... asdf:operate I assume does something of copilation... Sure looked like it anyway ;-) (says the c# / PHP / Rails developer) 20:48:58 almost certainly. 20:49:28 i've actually never seen sb-ext::*evaluator-mode* :interpret in the real world. 20:49:42 well, asdf:operate can do anything depending on the operation it is passed... 20:49:43 (save-lisp-and-die) is probably the funniest command I've ever seen in my life... 20:50:04 truth in advertising. 20:50:14 *sykopomp* has the t-shirt. 20:50:20 but a lot of operations are for compiling and loading of code, because that's kind of what asdf is all about. 20:50:48 http://www.zazzle.com/sbcl_save_lisp_and_die_black_tshirt-235661897435198844 \o/ 20:51:05 Fade: some claim to use it for debugging 20:51:17 i'd love a shirt like that, but my girlfriend would mock me mercilessly. 20:51:19 sykopomp: i have the hoodie, though it's worn out, faded and barely legible 20:51:25 i'll probably buy one anyhow. 20:51:28 I also love the fact that you have to have lisp to compile sbcl... 20:51:48 you have to have gcc to compile gcc, how fun is that? 20:51:52 well, you have to have _a_ lisp. 20:52:02 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 20:52:11 embroidery works better. 20:52:40 sykopomp: http://xach.com/img/slad-shirt-black.jpg 20:52:49 mine is still going strong after several years 20:53:02 i don't see the hoodie listed. 20:53:13 i think i got mine on spreadshirt 20:53:27 Xach: http://tclispers.org/news/sheeple-presentation SLAD t-shirt in action \o/ 20:53:28 alxconn: thus my joke that (defun car (list) (car list)) eventually compiles down to "CLA, 0, i" running at MIT 50 years ago. 20:54:05 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:54:54 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-34-77.iburst.co.za] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:00:17 -!- prip [n=_prip@host58-82-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:02:57 prip [n=_prip@host226-128-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:04:41 Yamazaki-kun [n=bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 21:06:00 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 21:06:31 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:08 -!- potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f666ce7-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:07:24 potatishandlarn [n=potatish@79.102.8.193] has joined #lisp 21:08:23 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 21:09:47 unicode_ [n=user@95.214.62.168] has joined #lisp 21:11:45 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-24-82-64-141-214.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:58 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit ["Client Quit"] 21:13:34 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #lisp 21:13:55 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@64.134.67.138] has joined #lisp 21:14:14 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]"] 21:15:09 Axius [n=oijhif@92.85.218.23] has joined #lisp 21:15:26 drewc: you're porting sbcl to the IBM 704? 21:15:28 heh 21:15:43 -!- Axius [n=oijhif@92.85.218.23] has left #lisp 21:16:39 -!- unicode_ [n=user@95.214.62.168] has left #lisp 21:17:48 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f756d04.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:31 haha, oh now I get the thread 21:24:43 it's the turtle at the bottom of the stack 21:26:58 I wonder if there's a code base for a non-trivial application whose code does not suck at least on some substantial portion 21:27:40 tcr, I have not met such a beast... 21:27:44 coding is a process of choosing tradeoffs 21:27:48 I don't think it's possible 21:28:18 rahul, Unlimited money, time and programmers could do it, but usually there's a constraint somewhere... 21:28:31 alxconn: I'm not sure, even then 21:28:54 I think there's something like a halting theorem in this realm 21:29:28 davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:10 -!- abugosh2 [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:31:14 I wonder if it's better in the corporate world.. ideally organic growth should be less chaotic there 21:31:38 heh 21:31:43 Well, the DB still isn't actually hitting MySQL and Mod_Lisp is broken... But hey, it's something... 21:32:09 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:32:12 tcr: have you seen organic systems? 21:32:17 tcr, Nope, usually worse because A) Corp developers don't tend to be as good & B) Scope creep and changes are way more rapid / violent 21:32:18 they're a mess! 21:32:35 you some apps in the medicine sector? 21:32:40 (e.g., the CL spec!) 21:32:43 +mean 21:33:06 more the bioligical sector, to be exact, if you know what I mean 21:33:26 but the CL spec is an organically grown system 21:33:29 eh no I'm totally not... my concentration is rather low at this point :-) 21:33:33 heh 21:33:41 rahul: they're hard to kill but hard to be too optimal either 21:33:59 have you looked at the way that blood clots in humans? 21:34:01 Any idea where to find a decent Mod_Lisp2 error message? Apache log just says [error] (111)Connection refused: error opening connection to Lisp 21:34:03 it's ridiculous 21:34:21 alxconn: um, is the lisp process even listening on the port? 21:34:44 rahul: oh you're speaking of life? 21:34:54 tcr: yes, the true organic growth 21:35:12 Well you have billions of years and a randomized test suite :-) 21:35:12 if that's your gold standard, then you're asking for a mess :P 21:35:20 Xach submitted a link a few days ago to PRISM.. I started checking it out.. the DICOM part was cute 21:35:35 tcr: pretty much the logical limit of corporate software in that :) 21:36:00 tcr: typically 20 years and a nearly random test suite 21:36:31 after 20 years, a program tends to become completely unmanageable 21:36:56 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:36:59 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:37:53 does not seem to be the case for Emacs; the astounding part on that is that they don't actually have a test suite, only a pretty small one started recently 21:38:16 afaics 21:38:19 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 21:38:20 emacs is trivial compared to most software 21:39:12 software systems can be very complex, but as a single program emacs is pretty amazing in itself 21:39:14 tcr: try to figure out the requirements required in a piece of software that tracks the payments that should be involved in a loan 21:39:15 maybe at this point 21:39:23 not sure that was true 20 years ago 21:39:36 tcr: if you can do that, you can make a few million dollars 21:39:37 jeti [n=jeti@p548EDD5E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:55 (I mean profit, not revenue) 21:40:03 Extra points if I use Emacs to do it? 21:40:07 heh 21:40:28 as long as it works, people don't care 21:40:39 but note that new kinds of loans appear every year 21:40:58 I don't care, I opt for buy-ought after the first year 21:41:04 heh 21:41:14 and then your software will look like crap 21:42:25 some crack headed banker will want a loan whose paydowns are tied to LIBOR or something 21:42:38 and you'll want to crack his head open 21:42:51 story of your life? 21:42:53 heh 21:42:54 no 21:43:05 I specifically don't do that kind of software :) 21:43:16 the crack you do? :-P 21:43:19 heh 21:43:35 nah, I'm not the banker either :P 21:43:43 I usually deal with the systems that trade these things 21:43:51 -!- jeti [n=jeti@p548EDD5E.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 21:43:58 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:44:24 but I understand the instruments well enough to know how ridiculous some of them are 21:44:30 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 21:44:37 (which the traders don't know) 21:45:00 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Client Quit] 21:46:13 rahul: do you know the ML paper? 21:46:39 Krystof: which ML? 21:46:45 "Composing Contracts: an adventure in Financial engineering" 21:46:55 oh 21:46:58 I've heard of it 21:47:37 worth reading 21:48:13 yeah 21:48:47 did simon peyton jones do that paper? 21:50:11 yep 21:50:30 I don't miss working with banks. 21:50:41 this looks like an interesting paper, though. 21:50:59 this sounds like why jmc created lisp 21:51:20 to describe functions so he could take their derivatives 21:52:35 spj wants to describe financial derivatives so he can get their present value :) 21:53:14 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 21:54:02 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:09 isomorphism can be hard to notice, especially when you are doing your best not to notice it :) 21:55:29 Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-23-75.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:56:06 nah, the traders know there are isomorphisms 21:56:22 they're just not equipped to really describe them 21:56:52 -!- [1]Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp121-45-5-233.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:59:01 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:01:04 the problem is that a mortgage involves something like 1000 'simple' contracts 22:01:11 and that's just for fixed rate ones 22:01:46 in variable rate ones, every single value is basically a variable 22:01:54 -!- a-s [n=user@93.112.122.84] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:01:57 To whomever added slime arglist hints for (declare (type (... ))), thank you very much. 22:02:07 oooo 22:02:13 nice 22:04:35 hmm, I guess a mortgage is like a zcb every month combined with an option that converts the contract either into a single payment or another mortgage... and actually you could choose any arbitrary linear combination of the two for many mortgages 22:05:13 and then there's the option of foreclosure at each node... 22:05:33 well, default + foreclosure 22:05:36 another simple question: how do I find the position of an item in a list? for example y in (x y z) being 1 :P 22:05:47 Hergonan: POSITION is one way 22:05:49 position 22:05:51 heh 22:05:52 Hergonan: obscurely named, i know. 22:05:56 *Hergonan* slaps himself 22:06:11 wait, go ahead and ask how to find the nth item... 22:06:20 it's in the sequences chapter, not the lists chapter 22:06:23 I know nth :p 22:09:16 hehe a bit like my how do you remove duplicates question a day or two ago 22:09:38 Argh, I'll paypal $50 to anyone who will just install this dumb app for me... (paragent) 22:10:01 Clean slicehost VM, OS of your choice 22:10:32 heh 22:10:55 *Xach* might try that but not right now 22:11:02 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f756d04.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:15:38 -!- gabnet [n=gabnet@226.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:16:09 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:17:12 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:17:15 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 22:18:45 alxconn: paste the error to paste.lisp.org 22:19:50 fe[nl]ix, Rebooted the box and half the services blew up, so I just nuked the VM... Hate running something that has already blown up from the get go... 22:19:58 -!- potatishandlarn [n=potatish@79.102.8.193] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:20:18 potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f665223-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 22:22:37 Xach: (declare ((type works, too 22:24:55 re-l [n=re-l@c-98-197-118-188.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:37 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 22:28:14 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B1B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:31:00 s-expr are so nice to parse, not sure why all language writers didn't use them 22:31:18 Guthur: why bother? We have XML! 22:31:19 :D 22:31:35 did you know that you can make DSLs in XML? I think that's pretty sweet and revolutionary. 22:32:40 -!- konr [n=user@189.96.195.134] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:33:02 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 22:33:02 hehe i'm trying to make it more lisp like though 22:33:22 lol 22:33:28 sykopomp, have you seen net-xml-generator? 22:33:37 xml is a tree as well so... 22:33:57 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:33:58 it's Franz's latest open-source software -- a readtable and pprint-dispatch table for frobbing XML :) 22:34:00 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229134154.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 22:35:13 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:35:58 be careful not to equate tag names with symbols, however 22:39:25 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:39:27 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:39:51 bgs101 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:40:47 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:40:58 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-179-26.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:41:26 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 22:44:07 irb 22:44:14 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp182.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 22:45:34 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:46:23 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-16-102.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Valete!"] 22:48:33 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:49:23 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@81.2.103.24] has quit [] 22:50:31 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-16-102.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:56:20 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-26-36.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:01:31 -!- nuba [n=nuba@pauleira.com] has quit ["leaving"] 23:01:40 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-31-105.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:02:17 nuba [n=nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 23:03:32 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:06:36 -!- bgs101 is now known as bgs100 23:07:52 plage [n=user@118.68.196.12] has joined #lisp 23:07:59 Good morning! 23:08:14 Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 23:09:10 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:10:37 NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-35-82-250-199-23.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:38 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-16-102.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Valete!"] 23:13:08 fe[nl]ix [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-16-102.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:14:56 -!- Intensity [i=[n4t3vNi@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:15:00 -!- Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-23-75.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:19:37 hi plage 23:20:04 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@64.134.67.138] has quit [] 23:20:16 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:20:25 ,tclispers 23:23:41 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-24-82-64-141-214.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:26:19 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:27:05 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-243-17.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:29:52 -!- delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:30:01 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 23:32:53 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:33:54 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:59 mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:27 -!- ruediger_ is now known as ruediger 23:37:44 saikatc [n=saikatc@75-144-246-6-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:03 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-243-17.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:21 -!- delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:38:29 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 23:39:19 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.73.249] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:43:37 ben_m [n=ben@chello084113058207.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 23:43:41 Hi there :) 23:44:30 When I try to use iterate like it says in the documentation (use-package :iterate), I get a couple of shadowing warnings. Is it safe to just shadow those functions, or is there even a better way to use iterate? 23:44:52 -!- delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:45:09 Testing it out in the REPL, so no defpackage stuff 23:46:23 What do you fear? 23:46:44 Well, it might shadow something important? I'm not sure. 23:46:45 ugh.. (defpackage #:foo (:use #:bar)) where there's no bar package breaks slime :/ 23:49:52 ben_m: um, what is it shadowing? 23:50:17 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-8413.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:50:19 Let me check... 23:50:27 #'terminate 23:50:39 ben_m, glancing through the defpackage in package.lisp looks as though it just shadows loop keywords, which you won't be using anyways if you use iterate. 23:50:55 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [No route to host] 23:50:56 -!- mattrepl_ is now known as mattrepl 23:51:18 Yeah that's obvious, I ignored those 23:51:29 It also shadows terminate though for me, which I don't really use too, so no harm done? 23:51:54 (find-symbol "TERMINATE" :cl) => NIL 23:52:19 CL-USER> (find-symbol "TERMINATE" :cl-user) 23:52:20 ben_m: you may want to work in a package other than cl-user 23:52:21 TERMINATE 23:52:44 adeht: Why exactly? 23:52:46 ah ah! You didn't clean up cl-user! 23:52:46 ben_m: that only uses packages that you know you want to use 23:52:56 *ben_m* is confused 23:53:32 ben_m, if you use your own package, you don't have to worry about conflicting with symbols that your implementation has stuck in CL-USER 23:53:39 yeah, we knew that as soon as you talked about shadowing functions ;) 23:54:09 Adlai: Oh, I thought those were all in CCL 23:54:22 what do you mean? 23:54:42 benny [n=benny@i577A1A32.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:54:43 Well, I'm using CCL, so I thought all implementation specific functions are in the CCL package 23:54:55 And the CL-USER is a by-the-spec kind of thing 23:54:59 You should do that: (MAPC (LAMBDA (package) (UNUSE-PACKAGE package "COMMON-LISP-USER")) (remove (FIND-PACKAGE "COMMON-LISP") (COPY-SEQ (PACKAGE-USE-LIST "COMMON-LISP-USER")))) ; first thing, because implementations are allowed to polute cl-user. 23:54:59 CCL imports a lot of symbols into the CL-USER package 23:55:00 23:55:20 Adlai: didn't know that, thanks 23:55:22 Confusion gone! 23:55:37 clhs 11.1.2.2 23:56:41 pjb, you should use #:common-lisp-user so that your snippet will work in "modern mode" too! :P 23:56:50 pjb: why the copy-seq btw 23:57:11 modern mode? 23:57:13 I avoid non-standard implementations. 23:58:20 shadowing loop keywords is irrenevant even if you do use loop 23:58:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abb.htm 23:58:27 irrelevant, even 23:58:51 loop uses string equality to compare keywords 23:59:07 adeht: The result of remove may share with sequence; the result may be identical to the input sequence if no elements need to be removed. So you better be safe than sorry, and always copy the lists you get from CL. 23:59:43 pjb, you don't side-effect the result of REMOVE, though 23:59:46 RecycledCorn [n=Recycled@ip72-207-23-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp