00:07:42 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 00:08:46 PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 00:14:28 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:19:13 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:23:20 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:29:55 -!- milanj [n=milan@109.93.62.126] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:34:25 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.196.12] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:37:09 kwinz3 [i=kwinz@213142127131.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 00:40:17 oconnore_ [n=eric@c-66-31-124-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:38 *Xach* hacks up stuff for maximum fun 00:45:17 *Xach* is extremely glad for ironclad, drakma, cl-ppcre, and friends 00:45:39 *Guthur* just used (initialize-instance :before (..)) for the first time, and now thinks CLOS kind of rocks 00:46:48 couldn't quite figure out what share-initialize was about though 00:47:03 Guthur: did you see froydnj's article on the topic? 00:47:30 no, I was actually about to ask for material earlier 00:47:33 rpg [n=rpg@72.11.106.198] has joined #lisp 00:47:41 while deciding whether to use :before 00:47:58 http://www.method-combination.net/blog/archives/2009/12/22/clos-initialization-protocol.html 00:48:24 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Client Quit] 00:48:45 oh that looks like it could be an interesting read, cheers xach 00:50:00 froydnj wrote it and more besides 00:50:09 he is a generous Friend of Lisp 00:51:22 nice read indeed 00:51:24 indeed, this looks like it will fill in a big gap in my understanding, the CLHS wasn't helping for htis 00:51:35 this* 00:52:18 Guthur: I really like Keene for explaining CLOS in a tutorial style 00:52:32 Guthur: I think it's a little hard to grasp just from the spec and amop 00:53:44 TDT_ [n=dthole@173-30-223-49.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 00:54:42 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 00:55:08 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:55:35 I did a type-of on an object being returned, and it returned (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (16)) -- Does this mean that the type of data the array holds is an unsigned-byte, and there are 16 spaces in the array? 00:56:32 TDT_: it's not about the type of the data it actually holds, but the type of data it is specialized to hold 00:56:37 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-78-35-197-122.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:57:00 Xach: That makes sense, wbat about the 16? 00:57:05 davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:27 TDT_: (16) means it has one dimension of size 16 00:57:34 (10 10) would be a two-dimensional array 00:58:00 perfect, that makes sense. Trying to convert the bytes inside this array to a string, so that helps me a bit to know where to look. Thanks Xach 00:58:41 TDT_: many implementations have an octets-to-string function. BABEL is a library that does it in a portable way. 00:58:55 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:37 xach: that was a good article by froydnj, food for thought. I never really considered the reinitialisation scenario before, or even to make use of 01:03:30 md1 [n=user@chello089173014058.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 01:03:38 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 01:04:03 dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-123-121.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:39 -!- akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.209] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:05:04 ben_m [n=ben@chello084113058207.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 01:05:25 Is there a simple way to concatenate a list of numbers into a single string? (eg. (1 2 3) => "123") 01:05:39 I have no idea how to look up stuff like that in the HyperSpec 01:05:46 ben_m: (map 'string 'digit-char '(1 2 3)) 01:05:48 -!- kwinz3 [i=kwinz@213142127131.public.telering.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:05:57 Oooh, thanks. 01:06:11 How come you use ' and not #'? 01:06:15 that sounds an awful lot like a question posed earlier 01:06:25 ben_m: because Xach is a lazy bum? 01:06:26 ben_m: no particular reason. 01:06:36 ah :) 01:06:40 i thought #' was more for functions 01:06:47 madnificent: I'm working on Lisp stuff instead of playing video games. Give me a break! 01:06:49 or is that just a style hting 01:06:53 thing* 01:06:54 I didn't know map allows regular symbols 01:07:12 clhs function designator 01:07:18 a symbol may designate a function 01:07:22 Xach: wow, I'm actually really playing a video game right now... you have a cam on me or something? 01:08:10 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32F2DC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:13 Oh, the above solution only works for single digit numbers. 01:08:19 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Client Quit] 01:08:31 -!- oconnore_ [n=eric@c-66-31-124-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:08:43 -!- partisan [n=partisan@121.124.124.117] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:08:54 ben_m: (apply 'concatenate 'string (mapcar #'princ '(11 12 13)))? 01:09:04 oops, (mapcar 'princ-to-string ...) 01:09:04 \o/ 01:09:44 not the fastest way to do it though 01:09:55 It's clean though :) Thanks. 01:11:12 madnificent: what's the fastest way? 01:11:37 (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (map nil 'princ '(11 12 13)))? 01:12:05 map nil? 01:12:08 Xach: the fastest way is really much to ask, that's way too complicated for me :P (also: I misread, it may well be fast) 01:12:33 ben_m: (map nil ...) doesn't return anything. 01:12:40 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:12:46 Ah, so for side effects only? 01:12:51 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 01:12:52 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-123-121.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:13:02 right. 01:14:24 partisan [n=partisan@121.124.124.117] has joined #lisp 01:14:37 -!- ben_m [n=ben@chello084113058207.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["brb"] 01:15:29 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:55 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 01:17:17 amnesiac_ [n=amnesiac@c-67-169-77-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:35 ben_m [n=ben@chello084113058207.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 01:18:09 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:20:35 kwinz3 [i=kwinz@213142121097.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 01:22:07 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:27:51 Colostomy [n=Colostom@201.170.7.50.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:03 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-80.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:28:03 Good afternoon! 01:28:24 How ith everybody doing in thith irthi channel? 01:28:37 Ith thith a thupport group for lithpers? 01:28:52 Colostomy: go away. 01:29:03 I have alwayth had a thpeech impediment 01:29:03 No, it's for programmers. 01:29:07 Colostomy: type: /topic 01:29:13 programmerth with a lithp? 01:29:18 Colostomy: type: /topic #lisp 01:29:30 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 01:29:33 ok 01:29:35 -!- Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has been kicked from #lisp 01:29:39 Colostomy [n=Colostom@201.170.7.50.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:42 ok 01:29:43 sorry 01:29:54 I thaw thith in a thearch engine 01:29:58 and thought it would help 01:29:59 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*=Colostom@*.170.7.50.dsl.dyn.telnor.net 01:30:06 -!- Colostomy [n=Colostom@201.170.7.50.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has left #lisp 01:30:18 pjb: next time, recommend "/quit topic" 01:30:23 :-) 01:30:30 Yesterday we had a smaper from telnor.net too... 01:30:33 spammer. 01:30:38 poor telnor 01:30:42 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 01:30:59 brain-fry. I just tried to open linux-2.6/net/ipv4/tcp.lisp 01:31:41 :-( I don't have it in my kernel sources... 01:32:07 lukego is lucky! :-) 01:32:33 yeah you have to pull straight from linus's git tree :) 01:32:53 Before he translates it to C... 01:33:30 along with ext4.hs 01:33:40 c|mell [n=cmell@125.24.100.65.adsl.dynamic.totbb.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:45 *Xach* misread as h2xs for a moment 01:34:19 -!- harovali1 [n=harovali@r190-135-12-90.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #lisp 01:37:50 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 01:40:11 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:24 -!- konr [n=user@189.98.234.110] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:40:36 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:41:01 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 01:41:16 konr [n=user@189.98.234.110] has joined #lisp 01:41:52 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Client Quit] 01:42:29 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-80.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:43:33 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:45:48 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-24-203.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:47:03 JonSmith [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:04 ruediger [n=the-rued@91-115-24-203.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 01:51:39 -!- rpg [n=rpg@72.11.106.198] has quit [] 01:52:01 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 01:52:33 ramus`_ [n=ramus@99.23.141.170] has joined #lisp 01:53:38 is binding to *debugger-hook* the best way of catching all possible errors? 01:53:40 gruseom [n=daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has joined #lisp 01:54:23 Guthur: what insatisfaction do you have with (handler-case ... (error () ...)) ? 01:54:56 Guthur: what do you mean by "all"? What do you mean by "errors"? 01:55:09 I wont necessarily have the code to wrap in a handler 01:55:19 its for a window lib 01:55:34 The lisp debugger is useful only to debug lisp code. 01:55:39 at the minute any crash to debugger leaves the window 01:55:54 ya but i can send a message to the x-server 01:56:01 to kill the window 01:56:32 There's no way. As soon as there is an error in C code, you cannot do anything about it. Anything may have happened. 01:56:50 oh the error wont be in c, most likely 01:56:53 Kill the process and reboot it. 01:57:10 C, C++, pascal, ada, whatever that window lib is written in. 01:57:15 if the error is in C thats a different kettle 01:57:23 its written in lisp 01:57:24 hehe 01:57:32 it used Xlib 01:57:33 *Xach* has solved his latin-1 article archive problem, hooray 01:57:35 Then use handler-case. 01:57:36 i suppose thats in C 01:58:09 if the crash is in Xlib I can't do anything, but its all others I am thinking of 01:58:34 Lisp -> handler-case ; anything else you're doomed. 01:58:51 For any other crash, I'd have a parent process watch over a child process and clean up when the child dies. 01:59:21 (you can write the parent process in lisp, but you will have to use posix primitives such as waitpid, etc.) 02:00:41 handler-case might be enough at the moment, its just even silly lisp mistakes leave the window, which is a pain 02:00:57 I just ran across this: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8023 02:01:00 "Kernel mode linux" 02:01:11 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:01:15 Guthur: notice that external resources can be shared between parent and child processes (file descriptors are inherited, and can be transmited thru a pipe), so a parent can do a lot of thing with resources held by a child when it dies... 02:01:45 -!- kwinz3 [i=kwinz@213142121097.public.telering.at] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:02:29 Sometimes Slime works, but sometimes (most of the time) it doesn't, and outputs this error: "+++ SWANK-PROTOCOL-ERROR: NIL #[newline];; swank:close-connection: end of file on #". 02:03:12 foom: start porting SBCL to it 02:03:34 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 02:03:38 SBCL version 1.0.34, 23.1.1, and Slime date 2009-12-23. 02:03:39 fe[nl]ix: already busy enough with one sbcl port. Can't start a second. :) 02:03:47 Emacs 23.1.1* 02:03:58 no handler-case wont work unfortuately 02:04:04 -!- amnesiac_ [n=amnesiac@c-67-169-77-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:04:40 The user at the moment defines there own main-loop, so I have no form to pass to the handler-case 02:07:16 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-142-250.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:07:30 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-142-250.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:48 it claims to be able to run programs unmodified (not even recompile), as long as they don't use %GS. 02:09:36 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@125.24.100.65.adsl.dynamic.totbb.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:09:53 Mezner [n=Mezner@c-24-99-183-225.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:15 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:10:52 Guthur: you don't know how handler-case works. You just write: (handler-case (main-loop) (error (err) (format t "oops an error ~A occured in main-loop.~%" err))) 02:11:18 I know thats the probably I haven't restricted the user to a main-loop 02:11:30 sure I could do that but I was thinking of the overall lib 02:12:13 You're not making alot of sense... 02:12:29 Could you precise your idea? 02:12:48 anair_84 [n=anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:59 plage [n=user@113.161.70.110] has joined #lisp 02:13:13 Good morning Plage! 02:13:25 At the minute the Library does not provide a main-loop, it just provides windowing methods and event dispatch 02:13:45 Guthur: what's your problem? 02:13:48 windowing method = open and close etc 02:14:06 pjb: Hey. I can't talk very much because I am listening to internship defenses. 02:14:38 Ok, concentrate on the defenses! :-) 02:14:41 I would like a way for the library to gracefully destroy any residual window the debugger is invoked 02:14:45 foom: that would be nice 02:15:00 Guthur: provide a with-open-file like macro. 02:15:34 there is one, where it could go I suppose, I'm not a big fan of those for window applications though 02:15:45 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.140.86] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:15:58 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:16:04 I'll suggest it goes there, better than nothing i suppose 02:17:01 -!- md1 [n=user@chello089173014058.chello.sk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:17:31 Guthur: my point would be here that it's not because you enter the debugger that you should kill the windows. The user may exit from the debugger "successfully", that is, having repaired the problem and continuing execution. 02:17:58 pjb: very good point 02:28:22 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:30:50 BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:12 -!- yoonkn [n=yoonkn@112.169.40.70] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:34:38 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:36:45 so, is cffi the more or less accepted ffi for CL these days? 02:37:09 -!- ramus`_ is now known as ramus` 02:37:41 BrianRice` [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:06 danderson: among open source people, yes 02:38:09 -!- davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:38:54 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 02:39:07 Which are strong contenders? 02:39:08 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@91-115-24-203.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:39:31 Xach: and elsewhere? uffi? Something else? 02:39:45 yoonkn [n=yoonkn@112.169.40.70] has joined #lisp 02:39:51 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-125-173.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:52 Guthur: last I checked in (long time ago), the face-off was between uffi and cffi, as I recall 02:40:05 maybe I'm missing some other awesome FFI interface though. 02:40:30 -!- Mezner [n=Mezner@c-24-99-183-225.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:40:47 danderson: I think commercial users use the FFI of their implementation more often. 02:40:57 ah, okay. 02:41:08 Well, cffi it is then. Thanks for the advice. 02:41:22 -!- ben_m [n=ben@chello084113058207.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:41:45 CFFI is good, well documented as well 02:43:06 ben_m [n=ben@chello084113058207.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 02:45:31 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@204.52.135.62] has quit ["leaving"] 02:46:11 I tend to like uffi personally as it's easily available on several CL implementations with minimal (or no) dependencies, but cffi is indeed more popular for open source lately 02:46:24 -!- balooga1 [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:46:34 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-votnbzsmjazcvwme] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:51:44 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.202.158] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 02:53:05 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:53:05 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 02:53:30 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:53:51 yoonkn_ [n=yoonkn@112.169.40.70] has joined #lisp 02:59:58 -!- madsy is now known as Madsy 03:07:41 jmbr___ [n=jmbr@237.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 03:11:17 topo [n=topo@190.232.44.65] has joined #lisp 03:11:30 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-204.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:12:02 -!- yoonkn [n=yoonkn@112.169.40.70] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:13:42 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 03:16:32 bipt [i=bpt@cpe-075-182-092-215.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:18:55 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:22:28 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:23:13 -!- jmbr__ [n=jmbr@87.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:24:22 wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d816cc3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:45 -!- wakeup^ [n=wakeup@koln-5d8145a8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:27:14 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:31:37 jordy [n=jordy@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:58 -!- jordy [n=jordy@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:32:03 jordyd [n=jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:02 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:36:24 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:36:51 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBC8BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:42 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 03:42:01 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@87.187.231.67] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:42:34 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:42:46 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:44:01 hi, is there a way to get a NaN directly without computation in SBCL? 03:44:20 I mean without computing a NaN. 03:45:59 (apropos "NAN") might be informative. 03:48:31 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:49 Zhivago: Thanks, seems no other ways. 03:55:27 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:56:02 -!- pragma_ is now known as pragma__ 03:56:30 -!- pragma__ is now known as __pragma 03:56:45 -!- __pragma is now known as pragma_ 03:56:48 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:58:12 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:58:13 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:01:59 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 04:04:40 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439907.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 04:05:00 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:59 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-64-118-11.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:09 -!- TDT_ [n=dthole@173-30-223-49.client.mchsi.com] has quit [] 04:07:25 Evening. 04:07:45 Good evening, gigamonkey. 04:08:51 if I wanted to try out StumpWM, which distro should I install it on? I'm not much of a Linux guy. 04:09:48 hello gigamonkey. And yes, plage=beach=spiaggia. 04:10:05 Gigaamd [n=Gigaamd@c-68-59-255-16.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:12 -!- Gigaamd [n=Gigaamd@c-68-59-255-16.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:10:33 Ah, I had never picked up the spiaggia connection. 04:11:28 felideon: it probably would work on most if not all x11 servers 04:11:34 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:14:16 I think asau runs it on i386 netbsd with xorg; but I wonder if you meant that you want to avoid linux or that you're asking which linux distribution to use :) 04:14:27 kwinz3 [i=kwinz@212067225192.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 04:14:30 lpolzer__ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-210-039.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:16 if the later, debian or ubuntu have a number of ready-made lisp packages which might help, but with asdf the distribution should make little difference imo 04:15:38 oh yeah.. i meant I didnt know my way around linux much hehe. so something lightweight but probably not so lightweight I'd spend hours setting it up or something 04:17:00 Modius_ [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:18:36 I guess that's kind of off topic, but was wondering if anyone using StumpWM had a preference. 04:19:37 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qyxqgdhodihgndti] has joined #lisp 04:21:23 -!- Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:22:00 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:56 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 04:24:12 Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:26:56 -!- jordyd [n=jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:30:25 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-228-039.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:32:53 Can I use loop for a cartesian product, without nesting two loops? 04:33:37 Looking for something like a list comprehension in other languages 04:33:52 ben_m: nope. 04:33:57 Too bad. 04:35:28 Though I wouldn't be surprised if there's some library for doing list comprehensions around somewhere. 04:39:01 ben_m: http://blog.superadditive.com/2007/11/09/list-comprehensions-in-common-lisp/ 04:39:13 Neat, thanks. 04:39:25 ben_m: Google for the win. incf-cl has it and is available on github: http://github.com/jmbr/incf-cl 04:39:29 ben_m: Sure. 04:39:55 That library sounds amazing. 04:39:57 Woo. 04:46:01 oconnore_ [n=eric@c-66-31-124-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:16 -!- kwinz3 [i=kwinz@212067225192.public.telering.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:53:47 balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-249.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:52 amnesiac_ [n=amnesiac@c-67-169-77-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:21 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:57:51 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 05:08:48 -!- jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:10:46 -!- ysph [n=user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:17:30 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-48-64.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 05:21:40 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable204.87-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 05:21:53 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 05:22:16 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable204.87-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 05:28:18 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 05:31:28 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 05:32:49 Sluggo [n=chrish@c-75-64-59-44.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:56 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-1-74.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:56 hi 05:42:26 -!- topo is now known as lisperati_boy 05:42:30 hi, one question 05:42:58 i have an array with data, im using this code to save to a txt file 05:42:59 (with-open-file (output-stream "myarray.txt" :direction :output) (write a :stream output-stream :escape t)) 05:43:30 now i trying to make a code for reading from the txt file an put the content inside the same array 05:44:08 i made this code but its now working 05:44:09 (with-open-file (in "myarray.txt") (let ((a nil)) (loop while (setf a (read-line in)) collect))) 05:44:10 any idea? 05:45:40 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 05:48:31 lisperati_boy: you have to say what you want to collect 05:48:46 And that (setf a ...) looks wrong. 05:49:06 this is the data i have in my txt file 05:49:08 http://paste.lisp.org/display/93070 05:49:25 i want to put back the data to the array 05:49:35 a is the name of the array 05:49:52 I think you mean (with-open-file (in ...) (setf a (coerce (loop for line = (read-line in nil nil) while line collect line) 'vector))) or some such. 05:50:06 'vector? 05:50:13 why is that? 05:50:31 Well, because LOOP ... COLLECT will return a list and you say you want an array. 05:50:37 That will give you an array of lines. 05:50:55 If you want all the text in a a string (i.e. an array of characters) you need to do something else. 05:51:01 ummmm 05:51:26 i want to make a load/save system 05:51:44 That's pretty vague. 05:51:45 the save system is file, im saving the data of my array into a txt file, that works fine 05:52:01 now i want to read the data from the txt file and put in the array again 05:52:24 Seems like you want to be using PRINT and READ. 05:53:45 Except that READ doesn't grok arrays. 05:54:28 your code worked fine 05:54:41 gigamonkey: huh? 05:54:44 what do you mean with grok arrays? what does grok means? 05:54:44 Hang on, that last thing I said may not be true. 05:55:10 this worked fine 05:55:11 (with-open-file (in "myarray.txt") (setf a (coerce (loop for line = (read-line in nil nil) while line collect line) 'vector))) 05:55:29 Yeah, but did it actually return what you want? 05:55:34 you can just (with-open-file (in "myarray.txt") (read in)) 05:55:35 can you explian me that code? why does it have = ? 05:55:45 lisperati_boy: that's the syntax of LOOP. 05:55:51 What adeht said. 05:56:19 but i want to have the txt file data inside the array again 05:56:20 If you have an array (or any other readable Lisp object) you can write it out with PRINT and read it with READ. 05:56:36 (with-open-file (in "myarray.txt") (read in)) doesnt put that data inside the array 05:56:50 ... 05:56:51 lisperati_boy: you are not being clear about what you want. 05:57:17 which part is not clear? 05:57:17 Based on your paste it looks like you have an array of structures. 05:57:26 yes , i have an array of structures 05:57:29 I assume you want back an array of structures. 05:57:33 yes 05:57:40 Using read-line will not give you that. It will give you a bunch of strings. 05:58:07 READ will. (Though I'm not sure it's going to be able to read the structures. But I've been wrong about that kind of thing in the past five minutes.) 05:58:17 i need to convert the string to structs? 05:58:24 No, you need to use READ. 05:58:42 gigamonkey: if the structure was defined and the slot values are readable, sure 05:59:14 adeht: good thing you're here. 05:59:16 cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #lisp 05:59:33 Isn't there something hinky about the #S(...) notation? 05:59:51 gigamonkey do you mean something like this? 05:59:52 (with-open-file (in "myarray.txt") (setf a (coerce (loop for line = (read in nil nil) while line collect line) 'vector))) 05:59:57 nothing that comes to mind 06:00:05 shortsightedsid [i=c0a314e7@gateway/web/freenode/x-vakjwzjuumplajaf] has joined #lisp 06:00:33 How do I compare string designators? 06:00:36 lisperati_boy: did you read what adeht wrote? Just open the file and READ from the stream. 06:00:53 lisperati_boy: what rme said. And adeht. 06:01:07 but i need to put the data inside an array 06:01:26 ben_m: string=/string-equal 06:01:54 lisperati_boy: inside what array? 06:01:58 READ produces lisp objects from their textual representation. 06:01:58 adeht: Aaah, I forgot that lisp uppercases 'foo 06:02:02 Thanks :) 06:02:05 inside array a 06:02:30 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-110-31.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:02:47 i think this is working (with-open-file (in "myarray.txt") (setf a (coerce (loop for line = (read in nil nil) while line collect line) 'vector))) 06:02:49 lisperati_boy: maybe you mean you have a variable A and you want to set it to that array 06:03:00 yes 06:03:01 I've moved around/refactored a bunch of code, that should work the same. However, every HUNCHENTOOT request is causing a new session to be made. Is there anything nobrainer I could be doing that I should check for? 06:03:10 lisperati_boy: if you have an existing array, A, that you really desparately want to mutate, you can use READ to get an array with the data you want and then copy it into the array pointed to by A. Or you could just make A point to the new array. 06:03:45 I'm pretty sure you're confused if you think that code is doing what you want. Or I'm very confused about what you want. 06:04:03 If you look closely you probably have an extra level of arrayness around the thing you got back. 06:04:22 ok ill explain you better, i have an array called a that have structures, i have a code that save that array into a txt file 06:04:42 arrays don't have names 06:04:54 (with-open-file (output-stream "myarray.txt" :direction :output) (write a :stream output-stream :escape t)) 06:05:03 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 06:05:21 I'd use PRINT there rather than WRITE. 06:05:43 or PRIN1 06:05:54 now what i want is to read from the txt file and save the content into the array a again and replace it , and i want to have my array a with structures again from the txt file 06:05:58 is it clear now? 06:06:05 You probaly also want to wrap the whole thing in WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX 06:06:09 no, you're still confused 06:06:30 And, as several people have said, you want (with-open-file (in "myarray.txt") (setf a (read in))) 06:06:38 lisperati_boy: you need to distinguish between a value, like an array, and a variable, like A 06:07:01 a is the name of my array 06:07:17 arrays don't have names 06:07:47 ok this worked 06:07:48 (with-open-file (in "myarray.txt") (setf a (read in))) 06:08:04 is this going to give me an array of structures ? 06:08:13 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-145-54.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:08:22 arrays doesnt have names? 06:08:22 Yes. 06:08:40 lisperati_boy: would you like me to repeat it once more? 06:08:41 values are values. Variables have names and refer to values. 06:08:41 is this something specific of common lisp or arrays doesnt have names in every programming language? 06:08:48 no thanks adeht 06:08:58 It's true of most languages. 06:09:31 However in more static languages, the relationship between variables and the data they point to can be tighter than it is in Lisp. 06:09:50 so whats a? 06:09:55 Thus, in those languages, it makes more sense (though is still probably a bit sloppy) to talk about values having names. 06:10:00 'a' is the name of a variable. 06:10:17 Which at various points in time, refers to a value which happens to be an array. 06:10:25 in programming languages like java an variable is something and an array is other thing 06:10:30 if i make this: (setf a (make-array (list *n* *n* *n*))) 06:10:35 a is not the name of my array? 06:10:59 mjsor [n=mjsor@c-71-193-150-13.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:11:00 What's the name of the array if you then say (setf b a) ? 06:11:11 ummm 06:11:22 b? 06:11:36 But you can still reach it through 'a'. 06:11:52 ummm it has 2 names? 06:11:55 That's the point. The array has an existence independent of whether there happens to be a variable refering to it. 06:11:56 fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:11:58 How about this: 06:12:00 or neither of them are the names 06:12:08 stop thinking about names, think about 'refering' to things 06:12:10 oh i see 06:12:22 (setf a (make-array ...)) (setf my-list (list a)) (setf a nil) 06:12:33 idiomatic-p (apply #'values result-list) ;-) 06:12:50 The array still exists (it's the first element of the list MY-LIST) but has no 'name', in the sense you've been talking about. 06:12:55 fusss: values-list 06:13:12 oh i see 06:13:29 lisperati_boy: in a sense there are no names, just values 06:13:36 some values tend to refer to other values 06:13:41 That's just as true in Java, and most other languages you're likely to be familiar with. 06:13:47 its wierd lisp 06:14:00 lisperati_boy: if you do (print (make-array 3 :initial-element 0)) 06:14:06 lisperati_boy: what is the name of that array? 06:14:21 it doesnt have name 06:14:31 so some arrays don't have names 06:14:40 lisperati_boy: Lisp may be weird, but in this case it seems to me pretty much like other languages. 06:14:50 some or neither? 06:14:58 no, if you do (setf a 3) is A the name of an array? 06:15:20 is A the name of 3? 06:15:36 of neither of them 06:16:00 if you do (setf a (make-array 3 :initial-element 0)) is A the name of an array? 06:16:12 arrays doesnt have names 06:16:25 what is A? 06:16:33 Okay, folks, we've beat him into submission. Stand down. 06:16:33 a variable storing an array 06:16:41 adeht: +1 values-list :-) 06:16:59 lisperati_boy: in Lisp, variabels don't store objects 06:17:04 *variables 06:17:08 lisperati_boy: they refer to them 06:17:11 refering? 06:17:15 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_b.htm#binding 06:17:23 ok i see 06:18:08 also a is a symbol 06:19:15 maybe it's simpler for you to think in terms of symbols 06:19:23 instead of variables and names 06:19:40 xristos: I'm not sure that's going to be helpful. 06:19:53 A is the name of a variable that may refer to an array 06:20:10 strings name symbols; symbols name variables (and other things); variables refer to values 06:20:53 is i save data inside an existing variable , does it replace its content? 06:20:59 "name" is pretty overloaded and often used loosely. 06:21:19 All you can do with a variable is make it refer to some piece of data or other. 06:21:30 for example if i do this, (with-open-file (in "myarray.txt") (setf a (read in))) 06:21:49 and a is refering to another array, what happens with the array that was refering to a before? 06:21:50 lisperati: Variables are not boxes in CL. They do not have things in them. 06:22:11 lisperati_boy: nothing happens to it 06:22:16 lisperati: You are probably confused by C, where variables are like boxes that you can put things in. 06:22:20 Assuming by "save data inside an existing variable", you mean "assign a new value to an existing variable", then the variable now refers to a new value and the old value continues on it's merry way, perhaps becoming garbage if the variable was the only remaining reference to it. 06:22:21 i know zhivago, thats why im asking what happens with the previous array 06:22:24 lisperati_boy: if there are no more references left to it, it is considered garbage 06:22:40 lisperati: If you know that, you cannot ask the question the way you did -- try fixing your question. :) 06:22:42 if its not a box, it means it doesnt replace it, so it may still existing somewhere , isnt it? 06:23:28 garbage? 06:23:40 lisperati: I know a cat, I call the cat "stupid cat". My friend knows the same cat, he calls it "smelly cat". 06:23:44 but its still consuming cpu resources? 06:23:58 lisperati: I met another, stupider cat, so I call that cat "stupid cat" now. 06:23:59 :( 06:24:04 do i need to destroy garbage or something like that? 06:24:21 is this something related to garbage collector? 06:24:26 -!- fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:24:27 does lisp has garbage collector? 06:24:30 lisperati: None of my naming changes the cats -- it's just what I call them. 06:24:40 lisperati_boy: arrays are just data - they don't execute 06:24:48 lisperati: I don't put the cats in boxes, either. 06:24:48 fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:25:10 i know zhivago, but if the array is very big, doesnt it affect the functioning of the program 06:25:35 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["out"] 06:25:40 lisperati: I know an elephant -- I call the elephant "stupid cat". 06:25:41 Yes, Lisp has a garbage collector. (I think Lisp can make some kind of claim to having invented garbage collection.) 06:26:01 so its not a problem if i have ghost arrays ? 06:26:20 Well, if they're garbage, they'll get collected. 06:26:23 lisperati: The size of the array isn't important. 06:26:29 no? 06:26:38 Yes. It is irrelevant. 06:26:54 ok so i dont need to worry about ghost arrays 06:27:03 But if you say, do this: (setf a (make-array ...)) (setf b a) (setf a (read in)), you shouldn't expect that someone accessing the array referenced by 'b' is going to see the newly read array. 06:27:03 -!- anair_84 [n=anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:27:17 The garbage collector will hunt down ghosts that nobody can see. 06:27:31 we should rename it to Ghost Buster 06:27:33 Eventually you may come to worry about creating too much garbage but I suspect you're not there yet. 06:27:39 cool 06:27:56 would make for cooler Conrad Braski depictions 06:27:57 ok thanks for the advices 06:27:57 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-1-74.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:28:26 i didnt know lisp created garbage collectors 06:29:23 lisp invented a lot of things 06:29:30 what else? 06:29:33 Lisp doesn't invent anything 06:29:46 mcarthy did 06:30:13 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has left #lisp 06:30:17 cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #lisp 06:30:27 yeah, invent was wrong. Lisp was one of the first to apply a number of cool ideas 06:30:35 and now, java is rediscovering them, one by one :) 06:30:46 like what? which other ideas? 06:30:55 Java has different aims -- it is just using proven technologies. 06:31:06 which is the aim of lisp? 06:31:07 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-0-47.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:33:18 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-0-85.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:33:35 from wikipedia: lisp pioneered tree data structures, automatic storage management (aka garbage collection), dynamic typing, and the self-hosting compiler 06:34:11 Or at least it looks that way once you discount everything else that was happening at the time that people have forgotten about. :) 06:34:25 mccarthy also came up with the if-then-else construct for lisp; and lisp was the first language where code and data are represented in the same way 06:34:50 but, as Zhivago says 06:34:57 a lot of it was in the zeitgeist 06:35:01 Although, note that mccarthy didn't want code and data to look the same. 06:35:07 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-80.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:35:12 Zhivago: really? How so? 06:35:17 M-expressions 06:35:23 Have a look at their original planned syntax. 06:35:29 ah, right. 06:35:34 I'd forgotten about that 06:35:50 why he didnt want the code and data be represented in the same way? 06:36:00 danderson: Lispers forgot about it :) 06:36:07 this is what makes possible genetic programming isnt it? 06:36:11 Because he didn't care about it and wanted the syntax to be reasonable. 06:36:22 lisperati: No, it just makes code generation simpler. 06:36:29 -!- mjsor [n=mjsor@c-71-193-150-13.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:37:06 being able to process code as data as code leads to fun things 06:38:04 like what? 06:38:25 splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-tzhcjzvhydigycmb] has joined #lisp 06:38:29 morning 06:38:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metacircular_evaluation 06:39:17 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:39:36 is that something like evel 06:39:38 eval 06:39:46 brandelune [n=suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:40:58 lisperati: Do you know how macros work? 06:41:43 ummmm, not much ive never tried them , but i ve read about them 06:41:51 it creates new codes with is compiling isnt it? 06:41:55 while 06:42:05 *it creats new code while is compiling isnt it? 06:42:39 i been experimenting with something like that, i made some program that creates new code 06:42:42 wanna see? 06:42:46 plage` [n=user@113.161.70.110] has joined #lisp 06:43:58 http://www.moco.dreamhosters.com/estructuras.html 06:44:53 I don't see why you say that produces new code 06:45:09 it's a set of pretty simple functions 06:46:36 the code generate that functions 06:46:42 and that functions generates 3d structures 06:46:50 nostoi [n=nostoi@227.Red-79-151-42.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:46:52 *those functions 06:46:53 -!- plage [n=user@113.161.70.110] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:47:12 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.77.65.198] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:47:36 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:49:47 zhivago did you see the link? 06:51:19 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:54:35 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 06:55:17 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:57:38 chenxupro [n=chenxupr@218.2.216.169] has joined #lisp 06:57:51 -!- chenxupro [n=chenxupr@218.2.216.169] has left #lisp 07:00:40 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:11 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:02:21 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:09:53 greetings 07:12:33 fuss1 [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:12:34 -!- fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:14:32 How does one model sets in SQL? 07:15:17 (defparameter foo (list a b c)) can I translate this into a table of two columns: variable, and value 07:15:28 and for each value, do a separate insertion 07:16:22 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:18:03 tables are sets of rows 07:18:44 Is there a way to make Emacs indent a macro in a special way? 07:18:54 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-1-74.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:11 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:21:22 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:22:13 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@ip-118-90-29-49.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:25:48 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 07:29:08 ben_m: if you're using SLIME and you use &body appropriately, Emacs should mostly do the right thing. 07:29:54 Well, the library is lispbuilder-sdl. 07:30:19 It uses a with-events macro to define event handlers, and in the examples they indent those handlers like a function definition 07:30:41 as in (:event-name (arg list) body) 07:31:02 And Emacs indents the body at the same column as the arglist :/ 07:32:56 What does the parameter list of with-events look like? 07:33:28 (with-events (&optional (type :poll)) &body events) 07:34:24 Hmmm. What Lisp are you using? And are you using SLIME? 07:34:35 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:34:37 sbcl, using slime 07:35:11 Weird. And you've loaded lispbuilder-sdl and the package your code in uses the appropriate package so WITH-EVENTS is the right one? 07:35:25 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:36:22 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 07:36:57 http://sprunge.us/WPNR 07:37:02 gigamonkey: Yeah 07:37:57 dunno, then. Emacs always seems to do the right thing for me. 07:38:16 Well, I'll just indent the few spaces by hand then. 07:39:37 -!- jmbr___ is now known as jmbr 07:40:23 -!- PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 07:41:30 ben_m: use lisppaste please 07:41:40 minion: lisppaste? 07:41:41 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 07:42:02 Ok then, I will from now on :/ 07:42:06 Ah, just looked at your paste. That probably isn't effected by the &body--that's internal structure that's not specified by the DEFMACRO. 07:42:22 At least in the case you give, I'd put them on the same line. ;-) 07:42:48 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:05 What I do now is to put the quasi parameter list of the events on their own line too 07:43:14 Then it indents like I want it to. 07:43:24 If you're going to be writing a lot of code like this and the single-line solution isn't tennable, there's probably a way to teach emacs to do the right thing. 07:43:58 *fuss1* rates Postmodern (PMDN) a "Strong Buy", AAA 07:45:02 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 07:45:19 -!- amnesiac_ [n=amnesiac@c-67-169-77-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:45:22 fusss pasted "sets, in SQL, like this?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93090 07:46:27 is it true that Lisppaste has Nexus One / Android app in the Google App Store? 07:47:59 along with twilio integration, allowing one to post Lisp snippets via touch-tone phone; Lisppaste, the most advanced code pasting platform in the world. 07:49:48 orly? 07:50:17 -!- partisan [n=partisan@121.124.124.117] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:50:46 it has to: as is, lisppaste is only Q4 2009 buzzword compliant .. 07:51:05 Reaver2 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:51:22 Ouch. 07:51:26 What'll the shareholders say? 07:51:37 and even more importantly; how will the market react? 07:52:33 plage`` [n=user@113.161.70.110] has joined #lisp 07:52:41 after the doom and gloom news today (Bloomberg: Lisppaste Used by Japanese Whaling Ship "Research". Update 2) I think we have no choice but to get a Nexus App, and perhaps score a Tiger Woods sponsorship deal. 07:56:52 plage``` [n=user@113.161.70.110] has joined #lisp 07:57:03 -!- plage` [n=user@113.161.70.110] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:57:53 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:58:03 good morning 07:59:04 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@227.Red-79-151-42.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 08:00:23 hola mvilleneuve 08:01:03 PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@ymcaof60.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:27 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-125-173.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 08:01:35 Strav [n=user@dsl-216-221-36-93.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 08:02:40 partisan [n=partisan@121.124.124.117] has joined #lisp 08:03:14 -!- plage`` [n=user@113.161.70.110] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:04:06 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-64-118-11.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:04:45 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp121-45-34-54.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:58 -!- fuss1 [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has left #lisp 08:06:47 -!- shortsightedsid [i=c0a314e7@gateway/web/freenode/x-vakjwzjuumplajaf] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 08:08:17 -!- plage``` [n=user@113.161.70.110] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:08:27 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 08:10:10 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:12:17 -!- partisan [n=partisan@121.124.124.117] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:16:23 -!- Strav [n=user@dsl-216-221-36-93.aei.ca] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:16:38 cffi supports more platforms 08:17:16 sorry for that 'out of context' remark. 08:18:18 anyhow cffi supports more platforms than uffi 08:19:21 and I still think it is a pain in the ass to use 08:25:02 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.6.63] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:26:08 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@237.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:29:31 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 08:31:58 pbusser [n=pbusser@82.174.238.138] has joined #lisp 08:35:18 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-48-64.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [] 08:35:55 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:38:21 deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 08:40:10 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-67-170-35-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:43:02 akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.209] has joined #lisp 08:43:48 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:44:56 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 08:45:21 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f75677f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:20 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:48:20 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-67-170-35-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:48:46 -!- malsyned [n=malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:49:25 malsyned [n=malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:29 tf [n=tobin@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp 08:51:39 -!- tf [n=tobin@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU] has left #lisp 08:54:48 dandersen [i=96d65e65@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 08:56:07 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has joined #lisp 09:05:29 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:09:00 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:12:24 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:18:23 addled [n=adl@21.Red-81-38-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:18:33 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:19:10 howdy 09:20:08 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:22:01 clhs 9.1.3.1.3 09:22:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/09_acac.htm 09:22:01 -!- dandersen [i=96d65e65@metabug/dandersen] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 09:22:28 wow that's a section I never looked at 09:23:06 CuteSweetHomo [n=df@115.189.252.253] has joined #lisp 09:23:08 hey 09:23:18 what is the use-case for a 'let' in lisp? 09:23:25 why not just use a different variable name? 09:24:31 Do you come here because you read some ruby blog posting about a "scope" operator? 09:25:25 no 09:25:48 -!- Sluggo [n=chrish@c-75-64-59-44.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit ["Oh No!"] 09:25:49 im just curious (no, not bi-curious) 09:25:52 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 09:26:11 CuteSweetHomo, the use case is to introduce a local binding. 09:26:18 Well your question makes no sense. Could you elaborate on what you mean? 09:26:39 well it's to prevent a naming clash? 09:26:53 CuteSweetHomo: In Lisp, variables have to be explicitly established. 09:27:06 CuteSweetHomo: LET is the operator to establish lexical variables 09:27:36 so you cannot just "use a different variable name" without using LET for that, too 09:27:59 oh ok 09:28:07 simplified of course 09:28:19 so there's really no use-case for a let in a language like python for example? 09:28:47 it would give you a local scope, so sure there is. 09:29:27 It's one of the things that makes Python feel like a scripting language 09:29:27 tic: can you give me an example of where a local scope is useful/necessary in a language like python? 09:29:45 python does have local scope, too, it's just not as explicit about it 09:29:59 Or can you refer to a function's parameter outside the function's definition? 09:30:15 tcr, you can't. so yeah, you have some local scope, just not an explicit operator. 09:30:47 tic, sorry to but you about this, but im really curious about a use-case of an explicit 'local scope' operator in a language lke python 09:30:49 CuteSweetHomo: in python you don't "need" LET 09:31:01 CuteSweetHomo, wrong channel, I guess. 09:31:23 also, if you need it, there's no beautiful way of getting it 09:31:28 CuteSweetHomo: You can reason about language semantics more easily 09:31:44 tic: well the python guys, who never accept there's any thing wrong with their language would of course say they absolutely do not need/want or even want to know about such an explicit local scope operator :) 09:31:45 thing is, LET allows you to be very explicit on what symbols you're using somewhere, where Python's "let's just create a new binding whenever I assign to something", which allows you to better validate your code. 09:31:58 so i ask here since you guys might actually tell me something useful :) 09:32:36 I don't think you intended it but that was mildly insulting 09:32:40 less namespace pollution, but that might be a moot point. 09:33:11 guaqua: cool. But i'm curious if you can give me a use-case where explicit local scope might be _useful_ in a language like python (not that it is _necessary_ :D_ 09:33:27 so that's the only use for it? less namespace pollution? 09:33:34 in Python, yes. 09:33:40 CuteSweetHomo: I recommend to learn a language like Scheme, or Common Lisp. It'll make you take up fundamentals of programming language on the go. 09:33:48 in Lisp, you *must* have LET. 09:34:05 (well, no, you can use lambda, but..) 09:34:10 tic: Can you provide a python example with some common scoping pitfall ? 09:34:53 tcr, not completely related, but having to use "global" in function definitions has bitten me many times. 09:35:01 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.132] has joined #lisp 09:35:01 s/definitions/bodies/ 09:35:12 same here 09:35:18 global sucks 09:35:32 meh, "not completely the same thing, but related." 09:35:49 and it's one of those things you forget every time you don't do that kind of constructs for a while 09:36:23 tic: no it's very much related 09:36:43 it's a perfect example, and it's the one I was thinking of but couldn't quite remember the details for 09:36:59 guaqua, yeah. 09:37:26 sadiquea1 [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 09:37:45 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:38:04 CuteSweetHomo: Because Python conflates "variable establishment", and "variable assignment", the following is ambiguous: var=0; def foo (): var = var + 1; foo(); print var; 09:38:35 it gets even more confusing if you have nested functions and the use of global 09:38:43 tcr: that's very interesting, thanks 09:39:00 yoos [n=quassel@c-67-169-211-13.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:39:11 guaqua, does global then refer to a binding in the function "above" or the global-global one? 09:39:18 tcr: is that true for ruby too? 09:39:19 the scope is either a function or module 09:39:29 tic: i think it's the module 09:39:33 I have the feeling you're arguing with someone else and using us to provide arguments for you. 09:39:34 guaqua, heh 09:39:46 me? no 09:39:59 just a solitary fag here 09:40:01 noone else involved 09:40:03 tic: i'll need to test this one, thourh 09:40:06 I don't know ruby 09:40:17 guaqua, don't put too much energy just for me ;) 09:40:22 well ruby is supposedly more 'lispy' than python 09:40:33 I don't care much for either 09:40:37 -!- yoos [n=quassel@c-67-169-211-13.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 09:40:41 (smug lisp weenie remark) 09:40:45 well, it's bitten me too many times and avoiding the usage of nested functions for no reason is no fun either 09:41:02 *tic* writes "C++" daytime, so meh. 09:41:27 does c++ allow nested functions? 09:41:45 I very much doubt it. Unless you can do something fancy with templates. 09:42:00 in C, people sometimes use cpp for it :-) 09:42:02 or the recent Apple extensions. 09:43:03 guaqua: in your opinion is ruby more 'lispy' than python (im not really a lisp programmer so i dont know for sure, but it's what i've heard) 09:43:26 CuteSweetHomo, it's a dumbed down Lisp with syntactical sugar. 09:43:50 search for MatzLisp 09:44:13 i don't know what lispy means 09:44:54 "lots of parens" 09:44:58 mishoo_ [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has joined #lisp 09:45:03 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:45:09 -!- mishoo_ [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has quit [Client Quit] 09:47:14 tic: hmm, so when lisp programmers choose a scripting langauge do they mostly gravitate to ruby or python? 09:47:58 they use lisp 09:48:11 How does it matter to you? 09:48:44 what's a scripting language? 09:48:59 it doesn't make sense to differentiate between "scripting langauge" and "real mans meat and potatos language" 09:49:54 mle [n=emily@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:25 CuteSweetHomo: if I have a programming task, I lisp it. 09:50:27 problem solved. 09:51:03 Ralith you mean you use lisp for everything? That doesn't seem optimal.. 09:51:21 soupdragon: well, I use it everywhere it's supported. 09:51:29 for e.g. microcontroller work I'm stuck with C 09:51:43 soupdragon, some people supposedly even use lisp as their shell -- http://clisp.cons.org/clash.html 09:51:52 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:51:56 that's a bit scary 09:52:01 Adlai: I still want to get monocle working someday. 09:52:18 soupdragon, agreed. 09:52:20 Ralith, agreed. 09:52:59 *Adlai* also wants a pony and non-sick sinuses. 09:53:11 *Ralith* would pass on the pon 09:53:13 pony* 09:53:15 maintenance. 09:55:31 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:55:48 Ralith: but if you got an agile pony with lots of unit-tests, maintenance would be a breeze... 09:55:50 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBC8BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:49 splittist: not when the design is so fundementally broken that it leaves crap everywhere. 09:57:30 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 09:58:16 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:58:18 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 10:00:14 -!- H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBC8BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:00:23 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 10:01:05 -!- PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@ymcaof60.lnk.telstra.net] has quit [] 10:04:23 samuelszzzz [n=df@115.189.159.14] has joined #lisp 10:07:00 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has joined #lisp 10:13:19 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:18:23 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 10:18:39 sdfsdf [n=df@122.56.212.13] has joined #lisp 10:18:43 -!- sdfsdf is now known as TurboSlut 10:24:18 -!- CuteSweetHomo [n=df@115.189.252.253] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:31:05 sdfsdf [n=df@115.189.218.164] has joined #lisp 10:31:25 -!- sdfsdf is now known as CUTEHORSE 10:39:28 -!- CUTEHORSE [n=df@115.189.218.164] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:39:38 -!- samuelszzzz [n=df@115.189.159.14] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:41:27 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 10:43:32 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 10:54:11 -!- TurboSlut [n=df@122.56.212.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:54:50 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 10:56:49 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.132] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:56:59 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:01:09 Axius [n=oijhif@92.85.217.207] has joined #lisp 11:03:23 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 11:03:40 PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:04:41 plage [n=user@118.68.196.12] has joined #lisp 11:05:00 Good evening. 11:13:30 evening, plage. Dinner at your usual place (: 11:18:08 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 11:19:00 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:19:19 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-qjcorlpdddkqrxmy] has quit [] 11:19:23 splittist: Depends on my wife. It looks like we are trying to check whether the hotel restaurant is not too crowded. 11:19:48 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-wrtwjuorojupwbbl] has joined #lisp 11:20:09 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:07 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:25:08 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 11:26:40 csmrfx [i=csmr@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 11:28:43 -!- Axius [n=oijhif@92.85.217.207] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:32:08 cur.exec 11:35:21 just got a new gilfriend myself. Monica 11:36:11 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-wrtwjuorojupwbbl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:36:11 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 11:36:50 Younder: that's great, you'll have less time for #lisp 11:36:57 Not that it concerns you in any way or that it is related to Lisp. 11:37:32 stassats, dream on 11:37:38 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:38:17 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 11:38:33 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:06 Axius [n=oijhif@92.85.217.207] has joined #lisp 11:40:53 somecodehere [n=ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has joined #lisp 11:48:51 postamar [n=postamar@c-nag-rtr.univ-avignon.fr] has joined #lisp 11:51:10 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 11:51:33 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:52:33 how does abcl's ffi look like? 11:53:03 *lukego* is flattered. john fremlin's "how to optimize with SBCL's garbage collector" was obviously written to bait me personally :) 11:53:11 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:53:59 i think it was written to bait more than just you 11:55:30 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:01 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:56:05 that bad? 11:56:33 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:57:39 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:57:57 tcr: I'm not following ABCL's development much, but I was under the impression that while ABCL doesn't have an FFI at all, luis has a patch to make cffi work on ABCL using JNA. 11:58:01 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 11:58:49 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.132] has joined #lisp 11:59:23 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 12:00:24 Ralith: i didn't find the provided examples sufficiently persuasive for the suggested solutions 12:00:54 that doesn't sound like a massive provocation per se. 12:01:16 a rather subtle provocation. 12:05:17 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 12:05:50 For example: "Sometimes your face is offensive. Therefore you should cut off your nose to spite it." 12:06:21 or maybe: "It's important to get rid of the bathwater, regardless of the baby content of said water." 12:06:36 -!- lisperati_boy [n=topo@190.232.44.65] has quit [] 12:07:14 I'm not convinced about the nose cutting. 12:07:54 your nose is the #1 cause of GC-related slowdown 12:08:03 :-( 12:08:27 Well, I /do/ have a cold, and hence a runny nose. There is quite a lot of GC happening at the moment. 12:08:52 (thus?) 12:11:44 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 12:14:38 stassats: I wonder what it takes to make input at the repl be fontified like lisp source 12:15:12 if I just call CONS in a loop I seem to pay 0.007us to allocate one and 0.0014us to GC one. that is a kind of comforting microbenchmark 12:15:55 tcr: i don't find that useful 12:16:29 repl is for writing code, not for reading 12:16:51 well I do when I paste failing forms from RT 12:18:57 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 12:20:09 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@ip-118-90-29-49.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:20:15 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp121-45-34-54.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:23:27 -!- Guest63937 is now known as mtd 12:23:57 -!- mtd is now known as Guest12261 12:24:13 I like the way slime's arglist echo is highlighting the current argument 12:24:17 -!- Guest12261 is now known as mtd_ 12:24:42 PuffTheMagic_ [n=quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 12:25:31 -!- PuffTheMagic [n=quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:31:38 -!- konr [n=user@189.98.234.110] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:32:19 milanj [n=milan@109.93.62.126] has joined #lisp 12:33:00 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:33:03 feep[nb] [n=feep@p4FD564A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:06 Ralith: yo 12:33:14 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.223.234] has joined #lisp 12:33:25 clbuild seems to be unable to bootstrap on a clean system. 12:33:39 am I missing something? (make-host-1.sh: line 31: sbcl: command not found) 12:34:12 (trying to compile-implementation sbcl) 12:34:19 lusory_ [n=bart@bb219-74-244-126.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 12:34:55 feep[nb]: you need sbcl to build sbcl. 12:35:03 Xach: Makes sense. 12:35:18 Xach: Is there such a thing as a "tiny lisp compiler" that could be used for bootstrapping? 12:35:23 or is it self-dependent? 12:35:54 *feep[nb]* just doesn't like depending on binary 12:35:54 you need something to build sbcl, not necessarily sbcl 12:35:57 (gentoo user) 12:36:13 I tried to emerge sbcl but it fails mysteriously at the end :p 12:36:23 with nary an error 12:36:24 you can use cmucl, some versions of clisp, some versions of openmcl 12:36:32 Xof: okay 12:36:48 I'll grab cmucl, thanks. 12:36:56 good luck building that from source 12:39:03 :/ 12:39:08 well it's gentoo, so most of that is done for me :p 12:39:11 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.132] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:39:44 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:39:46 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qyxqgdhodihgndti] has left #lisp 12:39:48 oh, hm, SIOC{IN,OUT}Q are not the ioctl's I am looking for. I'd like to ask the kernel, "how much can I write to this socket without blocking?" anyone know a syscall? 12:39:49 feep[nb]: clisp can be built from a C compiler. cmucl builds from an older cmucl. 12:40:11 cmucl builds _with difficulty_ from an older cmucl :-) 12:40:25 Xach: so the ebuild would just grab a binary? 12:40:29 j0be [n=chatzill@218-106-dsl.ipact.nl] has joined #lisp 12:40:41 :sigh: clisp it is ~ 12:41:22 <_3b> feep[nb]: might also try asking in #gentoo-lisp 12:41:23 feep[nb]: i'm afraid you will need a C compiler binary! 12:41:32 feep[nb]: so that's also a non-option 12:41:39 Q: I want to use Latex to produce PDF, having climbed the cl-typesetting mountain and almost failed. Any suggestions where to look for a package? 12:41:50 Xach: I'm not sure what I did about that actually 12:42:06 Xach: probably download one at the start 12:42:06 feep[nb]: flipped a lot of front-panel switches until you had a compiler? 12:42:09 XDD 12:42:28 Xach: That there's a forced binary dependency in my build process doesn't mean I can't try minimizing them :p 12:42:50 InvisibleTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 12:43:08 to what end? 12:43:17 Iunno. It's probably a stylistic thing. 12:43:41 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-49-223.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 12:47:26 -!- lusory [n=bart@bb219-74-100-179.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:49:04 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-80.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:49:05 topo [n=topo@190.232.44.65] has joined #lisp 12:49:17 ohey, clisp failed to install. 12:49:29 ../src/time.d:305:19: error: token "=" is not valid in preprocessor expressions 12:49:38 guess we're back to cmucl :p 12:49:58 it's probably my gcc 4.4.2, messing things up 12:50:08 feep[nb]: good luck with that 12:50:11 thanks 12:51:43 -!- csmrfx is now known as csmrfx_ 12:51:59 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:53:46 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 12:53:50 -!- sadiquea1 [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:54:39 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:56:50 Jabberwockey [n=jens@193.174.12.194] has joined #lisp 12:59:32 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-80.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:03:03 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:06:00 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 13:06:07 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 13:07:22 lukego: Thanks. There's still some work left done for autodoc. Especially for long arglists. 13:08:36 I'd also like it to be able to cope better with setf forms. 13:08:36 -!- feep[nb] [n=feep@p4FD564A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:08:51 jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-105-74.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:09:18 feep[nb] [n=feep@p4FD564A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:30 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:11:13 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:41 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 13:16:39 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.6.63] has joined #lisp 13:21:30 *tcr* wonders whether he should spend time trying to integrate slime and flyspell 13:22:03 in what way? 13:22:25 so flyspell knows about interned symbols 13:22:53 ruediger [n=the-rued@188-23-188-82.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:23:01 <_3b> for extra fun, recognize binding forms, and check the bindings as a series of - separated normal words :) 13:23:35 mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 13:23:46 I'd think flyspell does that? 13:24:52 <_3b> don't know, i'd have expected it to treat it as it would be in normal text though 13:25:03 and how it will work if the form itself interns the needed symbols? 13:26:35 wrt hunchentoot in sbcl on freebsd7 - any known issues/negative experiences or does it run smoothly? 13:26:39 it could distinguish between two types of typos, "not-interned", and "spelling typo" 13:27:24 highlighting them differently; perhaps one could do it in a way that's not too intrusive and still useful 13:27:36 next step---DWIM 13:28:10 -!- PuffTheMagic_ [n=quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:28:14 nonsense 13:29:16 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:29:32 lukego: why would you want to know that ? 13:30:28 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit ["leaving"] 13:30:53 -!- Axius [n=oijhif@92.85.217.207] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:31:05 felix: I want to write an ultra-simple but decent-performing TCP proxy between many sockets. one way to make it simple would be to only have one buffer allocated in user-space. to do that I need to know how much I can write immediately so that I never read more than that (and get stuck with data I need to hold somewhere) 13:31:55 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439907.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:33:15 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439907.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 13:33:24 stassats: it's not to have dwim, but to have something which is useful in most cases (when it's right), and not too intrusive when it's wrong 13:33:24 -!- JonSmith [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 13:33:40 stassats: also flyspell provides more than just "typo highlighting", it also provides "typo correction" 13:33:48 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 13:34:16 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:58 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:35:02 tcr: i actually sometimes want something like DWIM 13:35:42 you can't use fuzzy-completion for typo correction 13:35:48 lukego: Linux nowadays uses flexible TCP buffers. it's difficult to assess how much you could write without blocking, but IIRC it's in the order of Mbytes 13:37:09 lukego: I suppose that a lower bound would be getsockopt(fd, SOL_SOCKET, SO_SNDBUF) - ioctl(fd, SIOCOUTQ) 13:37:13 -!- ben_m [n=ben@chello084113058207.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["erc ftw? paredit + smileys = fail"] 13:37:54 felix: yeah, I'm digging through the kernel sources now to see if that looks in any way reliable 13:38:03 lukego: you'd have to check the kernel sources for the maximum internal buffer size 13:39:46 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 13:41:00 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 13:42:04 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:46:19 *Xach* embarks on project #2, parsing 9 different Date header styles 13:47:30 stassats: any news on your experiments re dealing with encoding errors in swank messages. 13:49:11 do you get them often? 13:49:51 -!- csmrfx_ is now known as csmrfx 13:50:09 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:50:17 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 13:51:04 when hacking on Babel, yes. 13:51:23 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.196.12] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:52:12 BAEBLFISH 13:52:39 luis: As a quickfix, you can change *external-format* in swank-sbcl.lisp 13:52:59 and specify (:replacement #\REPLACEMENT_CHARACTER) there 13:53:17 (details in naming may differ slightly) 13:54:18 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:54:39 tcr: right, I suggested that to stassats but he said he had better ideas. 13:55:39 ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 13:55:49 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:56:02 Yeah I remember. Back when Krystof hacked that replacement magic into sbcl, I gave it a short go myself. I wanted to make it display a warning in such case, Krystof didn't like it, pkhuong said it may sometimes be useful. 13:56:17 saba [n=saba@c213-89-102-144.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:56:31 What behaviour would be most useful for hacking on babel? 13:57:47 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:55 I think a warning would be useful, yeah. 13:57:56 jmbr [n=jmbr@237.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 13:58:27 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:58:28 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 13:58:30 what information would you like it to contain? 13:59:18 you can have a warning by writing your own handler 14:00:28 perhaps the position of the offending character(s), a presentation to inspect the offending string, not sure. Anything would be better than having swank die, really. 14:00:28 can you do that on top of swank's default behaviour? 14:01:07 hmm, today i had another dream about symbol conflict resolution 14:01:32 instead of conflict after conflict on a use-package, it would have "Always prefer symbols from THE-NEW-PACKAGE" as a restart 14:01:59 that spun off into a clicky interface in slime with radio buttons to choose which to use... 14:01:59 Didn't michaelw implement that? (btw. where's michaelw!) 14:02:14 tcr: hmm, maybe he did and i didn't see it. 14:02:45 it's on slime-devel if you care to find out details 14:03:07 Really? I'd have thought that's a sbcl-side change. 14:03:23 Iirc it contained a patch for sbcl or something 14:03:38 What do you do that you regularly get symbol conflicts? 14:03:49 Perhaps the problem should be addressed on a higher level :-) 14:04:08 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:04:13 tcr: Start writing a program, realize I didn't :use or that I would rather :use than use prefixes, re-evaluate defpackage with :use, resolve conflicts. 14:04:36 It's not regular, but when it happens, the awkward conflict resolution grates. 14:04:47 I guess I just ,restart all the time 14:04:55 I don't restart very often. 14:06:24 #'invoke-restart > ,restart 14:09:19 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:09:43 PuffTheMagic [n=quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 14:11:41 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.253.207] has joined #lisp 14:13:04 hugod [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has joined #lisp 14:15:37 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-204.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:29 Axius [n=oijhif@92.85.217.207] has joined #lisp 14:17:42 whoppix_ [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 14:17:45 tcr: My workflow sounds much closer to yours. Interesting (: 14:21:36 I just hate it when I waste time due to hidden state. pkhuong: I had the idea of a ,restart-lisp-and-restore-setup which restarts lisp, reloads all previously loaded system, and restores *package*. My initial attempt at implementing that failed, though. 14:22:25 Would you find it helpful, too? 14:23:17 that would be nice. 14:23:20 tcr, that does sound helpful -- I ,restart often enough that it would be convenient. 14:23:33 -!- vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 14:24:26 It needs another name though, because it'll make ,restart ambiguous and I guess many people are customized to typing ,restart 14:24:27 A prefix to C-c C-k to also recompile-and-load those files on restart? 14:24:42 i don't usually have much trouble with hidden state in a single CL session, but i run into trouble when i work on projects from two different locations and have to reconcile my state updates :) 14:24:59 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:25:01 tcr: ,tabula-quasi-rasa ;) 14:25:14 *Adlai* isn't used to typing ",restart" -- he just types ,rest 14:25:36 -!- PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:26:13 sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:18 this is actually a sad thought: if win32 dies, all that's left will be posix? 14:26:29 lukego: and win64! 14:26:33 JVM and .net :) 14:26:41 Zhivago: oh yeah good point 14:26:54 and Native Client? 14:26:58 I'm not sure all the embedded OSes are posixoids. 14:27:36 um, how can I configure clbuild for clisp? 14:27:59 It seems very insistent on sbcl. 14:28:00 some of the high-availability stuff is not POSIX 14:28:38 o, found it, nvm 14:29:57 uh 14:30:07 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:30:08 "cannot find an executable for implementation clisp" 14:30:13 it's right there in the path 14:30:22 I can start it manually just fine 14:31:08 feep[nb]: why are you insistent on clisp, anyway? 14:31:11 again - my mistake, I hadn't enabled the CLISP=clisp line. 14:31:17 feep[nb]: if you're on Gentoo try using the lisp overlay first 14:31:19 pkhuong: It's so far the only one that has actually _built_. 14:31:35 fe[nl]ix: adding 14:31:49 feep[nb]: and why is building your implementation so important? 14:31:56 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 14:32:37 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:32:47 Wasn't building from source supposed to help dealing with special requirements and preferences? I don't see that happening when you can't even build from source at all. 14:33:06 pkhuong: true, true, but the issues with sbcl are unrelated to me building it from source 14:33:20 pkhuong: and more related to me wanting it as part of the regular package management. 14:34:22 (if at all possible) 14:34:23 akar [n=oijhif@92.82.70.38] has joined #lisp 14:37:28 anyway, I'll try sbcl 1.0.34 from the overlay. 14:43:39 ah, found an issue with clbuild 14:43:52 on line 1280, {lisp} should be {lisp% *}. 14:43:57 er, {lisp%% *} 14:44:05 to split at the first space. 14:44:16 (my {lisp} is "clisp -repl", which naturally is not an existing file) 14:44:33 actually, that probably needs some more work. hold on. 14:45:02 that line is very new 14:45:04 if ! test -e "$(which ${lisp% *})"; then 14:45:05 *lichtblau* looks at lukego 14:45:10 and, again, %% 14:45:16 (sorry, my chat client uses % for formatting) 14:45:30 ahem.. 14:45:56 I meant well :) 14:46:10 *feep[nb]* doesn't mind, really. 14:46:29 also my /opt/clbuild/systems is empty. where can I get them asd's? 14:46:38 ah, it's the old lukego school of "break stuff and see if anyone notices" development 14:46:42 welcome back :-) 14:47:27 feep[nb], `clbuild install alexandria' etc 14:47:53 Adlai: doing 14:48:07 jahmarley [n=jahmarle@88.238.46.194] has joined #lisp 14:48:11 feep[nb]: did you manage to emerge sbcl ? 14:49:33 hugod_ [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has joined #lisp 14:49:39 fe[nl]ix: retrying currently. 14:49:40 -!- hugod [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:49:46 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:49:47 fe[nl]ix: the [nb] means netbook, so this is a bit slow. :) 14:50:00 -!- hugod_ is now known as hugod 14:50:15 -!- Axius [n=oijhif@92.85.217.207] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:50:21 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:50:47 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:52:05 Installing gentoo on a netbook makes you tough, I guess 14:52:34 -!- InvisibleTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 14:53:11 Just patient. :p 14:53:31 makes you have no free time... 14:53:42 -!- topo [n=topo@190.232.44.65] has quit [] 14:53:45 eh, not that bad once it's set up. 14:53:51 I'm actually pretty happy with this thing. 14:53:52 <_3b> seems like it would be easier to just set up the install in a VM on a fast machine and copy it over :p 14:54:15 really, the delay involved in gentoo is overstated. 14:54:19 the base setup barely took a few days. 14:54:45 -!- akar [n=oijhif@92.82.70.38] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:55:07 Clearly overrated 14:57:11 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 14:58:33 Clearly. Its only 50 times more than your debian based. 14:58:40 So overstated. 14:58:45 distcc not an option? 14:59:04 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:01:07 *Xach* finds himself wishing paredit inserted balanced *s for specials 15:01:10 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 15:01:23 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:02:20 just so long as you never want to multiply anything 15:02:26 :D 15:02:40 topo [n=topo@190.232.44.65] has joined #lisp 15:02:53 Ah, that leads to a desire for balanced + for constants... 15:04:35 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:04:37 <_3b> well, * could insert **, ans * could delete the extra one 15:05:21 Khisanth: on this shitty wireless, distcc is slower than local. 15:05:27 (I tried) 15:05:43 _3b: seems like a macro would be simpler. 15:08:22 <_3b> though i guess if it could detect the end of a token reliably, that would be the most convenient place to add the 2nd *, since then you don't need an extra keystroke to skip it anyway 15:09:27 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:10:46 -!- mtd_ is now known as mtd 15:12:15 is there a tutorial for getting started with cl-opengl? 15:12:31 _3b: or when you started a token with a * but didn't end it with one, clippy (or a pirate) could jump up and offer to help you with specials! 15:13:02 also getting make: *** No rule to make target `genesis/Makefile.features'. Stop. when trying to build sbcl on clisp. 15:13:31 sbcl/src/runtime does, indeed, lack such a file. 15:14:09 (the command used was clbuild compile-implementation sbcl clisp) 15:15:18 feep[nb]: why don't you use an SBCL binary to build SBCL? Getting clisp to build SBCL can be an arcane ritual. 15:15:49 pkhuong: right, doing that I guess ~ 15:16:15 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 I haven't learned paredit. am I missing out big? 15:17:16 lukego: definitely 15:17:29 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["out"] 15:17:46 how can i open a repl buffer in climacs? do i need swank for that? also climacs doesn't show the syntax in status bar now, is there a tutorial that shows how to do that, right now it seems like notepad :\ 15:18:00 lukego: paredit rocks 15:18:01 lukego: I put off using it for a long time, then I saw the cheat sheet and it has helped guide my intuition enough so I feel like I know what to expect when I'm typing. 15:18:06 i mean climacs looks like notepad 15:18:26 <_3b> yeah, just watch out for paredit if you don't type very accurately :p 15:18:36 .. does the sbcl binary have a _hardcoded_ core file location? 15:18:43 feep[nb]: no, you need to RTFM. 15:18:46 lukego: the hardest part for me was knowing what to expect for a given keystroke, and how to do my 5 most-needed operations automatically. 15:18:49 okay 15:18:51 <_3b> lots of nice 'delete half your program when you fumble a key-chord' features :) 15:18:52 syamajala [n=syamajal@173-14-133-149-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:57 jahmarley: climacs doesn't do repls, mail readers, psychiatrists or tetris. It's a text editor. For a repl use the McClim listener. 15:19:30 I'll push paredit onto my to-learn list 15:19:43 *_3b* still finds it worth using though 15:20:43 lukego: with paredit, all those C-M- keystrokes can be used without fear. 15:20:46 *Xach* has used it for a couple days and quite enjoys it 15:21:14 the "best" part is it makes indentation work for forms that didn't work before, like CASE and simple LOOP... 15:21:27 eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 15:22:00 splittist: so is there any way in mcclim to use an editor+listener in one window? because i can't run both processes at the same time anyway, i guess it is because of no threads, the listener halts when i open climacs inside it. 15:22:01 Eni [n=endy@75.160.50.10] has joined #lisp 15:22:40 it doesn't need to be the same window, it is enough to have them both working at the same time 15:23:54 sellout- [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:22 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 15:24:44 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:25:38 jahmarley: how do you start Climacs from the Listener? 15:27:29 (climacs:climacs) 15:27:36 *lukego* writes a lisp program littered with ASSERT's about how I expect Linux to behave. anticipate a lot of "Assertion failed" messages in my future.. 15:28:12 jahmarley: you need (climacs:climacs :new-process t), or use the run (Launch?) command in the Listener. 15:29:29 hugod_ [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has joined #lisp 15:29:35 -!- hugod [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:29:56 -!- hugod_ is now known as hugod 15:30:10 Athas: it gives this error: simple error: no clim-sys:make-process here. 15:30:11 I can depend on WITH-SLOTS working on structures in SBCL, right? 15:30:38 splittist: apart from C-M-backspace :-) 15:31:20 jahmarley: oh. You must have an old SBCL. 15:31:23 feep[nb]: to use clisp to build sbcl, try with 'clisp -ansi -on-error continue' 15:31:33 1.0.29 15:32:44 Athas: is it the threads support in sbcl which is lacking? 15:35:09 Right. McCLIM programs are really handicapped without threads. 15:35:26 You can use a scratch buffer if you want to try out Climacs. It's not so bad as you may think. 15:35:35 Even superior to a Listener in some ways. 15:36:11 -!- Eni [n=endy@75.160.50.10] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:36:17 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@237.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:36:22 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229111065.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:37:09 Eni [n=endy@75.160.50.10] has joined #lisp 15:37:29 Xof: is slot-value on structures still a goal? 15:37:43 isn't it already working? 15:38:24 but what if I break it? 15:38:33 I'm actually trying to understand how it works for unboxed slots. 15:39:01 I would tend to say that having it is nice 15:39:01 ah, good, a reader function. Never mind. 15:39:15 I think it works by ... yes, working out what accessor function to use 15:39:39 Xof: agh, already building with sbcl :P 15:41:28 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:37 -!- Eni [n=endy@75.160.50.10] has quit [Client Quit] 15:42:02 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:42:06 pkhuong: it could probably be more comprehensively optimized if we have a declaration of the object's type, because we know that slots stay in the same location in subclasses 15:42:08 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-fvhyooewzixukqbz] has joined #lisp 15:42:11 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:42:40 -!- sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:42:40 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 15:43:25 Xof: this is about using bitmaps to describe untagged slots. I really hate the way we have to find the length of the struct to get to them. 15:44:16 lichtblau had the cunning idea of putting untagged slots before the object header 15:44:29 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:44:45 Yeah. We'd need to two headers though. 15:44:58 Otherwise scavenge loses. 15:45:05 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:46:03 does using the length really matter so much? 15:46:06 besiria [n=user@pantou.lib.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 15:47:09 Xof: yes. Instead of a simple EA computation, you have to load the struct's header and shift the widetag out. 15:47:19 no, put tagged slots before the object header 15:47:31 kind of like conses are already done 15:47:35 lichtblau: mm. neat. 15:48:01 OK, I don't actually understand that distinction 15:48:12 no, that still needs a header, for transporting to work right. 15:48:14 oh, because we scan forwards? 15:48:16 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:48:36 Xof: yeah. We don't keep track of where objects start. 15:49:24 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 15:49:26 so, ok, now I don't see why transporting wouldn't work 15:49:54 Xof: It'd work most of the time, but there's no guarantee that the newspace is contiguous. 15:50:29 It could be made of disjoint allocation regions. 15:50:51 okay, sbcl built! 15:51:19 well, you'd have to peek forward to find the header before doing anything with the words preceding it. Having them in this order allows the peeking approach, however, in contrast to having them in the opposite order. 15:52:09 lichtblau: eh? So you'd traverse a long sequence of conses twice to peek forward and finally conclude they really are plain conses? 15:52:52 conses are the part that I didn't think through 15:52:54 mm, no, transporting will work. 15:53:07 Since when we transport, we actually get a pointer to the object. 15:53:13 right, we don't actually move the words themsevelves, only the things they point to, no? 15:53:18 Yeah. 15:53:22 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:53:33 so when we get to a header, we say, "OK, we need this much space before us and stick those pointers that we have previously got there" 15:54:32 Right. Only downside is one extra padding word. Good stuff! 16:00:22 *froydnj* is amused to find bugs in john fremlin's "optimized" lisp code 16:00:26 -!- csmrfx [i=csmr@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit ["leaving"] 16:02:23 enodran [n=enodran@208-78-98-174.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:14 froydnj: its also a bit weird that his benchmark transcripts seem to be fudged. if you actually type his (time ...cons...) then the compiler seems to optimize away all the consing. 16:03:46 lukego: consing measurement are quantised. 16:04:27 pkhuong: What does that mean? 16:04:38 another downside is a slower search_dynamic_space. but that sounds pretty minor 16:05:39 tcr: the values are mostly counted by chunks (allocation pages). 16:05:43 (actually I misspoke, it's that it floods the repl with a giant list, and I guess it's reasonable to edit that out) 16:07:09 Does anyone have a backed-up opinion on how to layout definitions in a file? 16:07:29 tcr: I go depth-first, parent first. 16:08:11 *_3b* objects to caring about files :p 16:08:34 *_3b* is also too lazy to do anything about it though :) 16:08:43 I have a meet-in-the-middle approach. Basic infrastructure is depth-first, children first. Then I go depth-first, parent first to show why further logic is defined. 16:08:58 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:07 tcr: I think this goes back to wanting to be able to print things out. it works well with eyeball-lookahead 16:09:09 Group your definition "logically"! 16:09:36 rpg [n=rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 16:09:43 Well there's stuff that I'd consider noise and put either in a separate file, or at the end. For instance conditions 16:09:46 -!- rlb3 [n=user@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:09:46 chronologically 16:10:46 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@188-23-188-82.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:11:20 I've seen some programmer put them alphabetically, "to be able to better find them"... 16:12:14 (Happily, he wasn't a lisp programmer, but a C++ one :-) ) 16:12:50 konr [n=user@189.96.108.63] has joined #lisp 16:12:58 people must be mad if they want to program lisp for a living 16:12:59 =/ 16:13:29 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:13:55 <_3b> mad at people who make them use other languages, in particular :p 16:14:18 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-188-82.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 16:14:23 lukego: do you still need to optimise for eyeballing when you print with an index? 16:15:41 I don't want to have to refer to an index all the time. I'd prefer the code to unfold more like the paragraphs in an article so I can just read it. 16:17:05 Hergonan: Yes. "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." 16:17:12 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 16:17:17 <_3b> hmm, code broswer for one of the ebook things could be interesting 16:17:20 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:17:22 BrianB04_ [n=BBommari@c-68-61-113-178.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:00 hey, is compilation cached by default? 16:18:02 -!- postamar [n=postamar@c-nag-rtr.univ-avignon.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:18:06 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:18:10 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 16:18:29 feep[nb]: what do you mean by that? 16:18:35 So, more like a scientific article (build everything up to the conclusion), a newspaper article (conclusion first) or a story (describe the setting and then from the objective down to each task)? 16:18:59 Yuuhi```` [i=benni@p5483DD93.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:03 pkhuong: I've been influenced by Pascal and similar languages, so I write it children first. 16:20:04 stassats: It's just I just asdf loaded the glut samples and it took a while 16:20:20 stassats: so I was wondering if the compiled data was cached by default, because that sounds useful 16:20:33 feep[nb]: asdf caches it, yes 16:20:38 goody, thanks ~ 16:20:41 also: dglut samples are fun 16:21:02 glut* 16:21:04 sorry, habit 16:21:24 Xach: Would be cool if http://l1sp.org/pcl/fasl worked 16:21:25 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f75677f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:22:47 tcr: I can make it happen. Can you suggest a place to where it should go? 16:22:56 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f75677f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:23 Yes, let me look it up 16:23:38 -!- Yuuhi```` [i=benni@p5483DD93.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:23:55 Yuuhi```` [i=benni@p5483DD93.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:07 -!- Yuuhi```` [i=benni@p5483DD93.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:24:50 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/lather-rinse-repeat-a-tour-of-the-repl.html 16:24:57 search for FASL 16:25:04 -!- Yuuhi``` [i=benni@84.131.197.25] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:26:39 Is there a good package/project that can produce a PDF using latex from within lisp. 16:26:49 hmm in my memory pcl said more about fasl files 16:26:49 pjb: I read a lot of fantasy books as a kid, so I prefer writing it like an epic story ;) 16:27:00 j0be: sb-ext:run-program. 16:27:29 marioxcc [n=user@200.77.65.198] has joined #lisp 16:27:37 pkhuong: I am also interested in generating latex code from within my app 16:27:42 tcr: ok, that link works now 16:28:25 j0be: Write a pretty printer. 16:28:40 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:29:19 -!- FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:29:29 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-151-90.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:29:58 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:27 pkhuong: hmmm no help. I thought there would be a package just doing that for me 'cl-who' or 'cl-typesetting' style. 16:35:37 how can i learn if there is thread support in my sbcl installation 16:36:16 jahmarley: look for :sb-thread in *features*. 16:36:16 look at *features* 16:37:04 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:00 hmm, it seems as if some inglorious basterd packed sbcl without thread support in tinycore linux, anyway, i'll find a way 16:40:20 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:41:08 c|mell [n=cmell@125.24.100.65.adsl.dynamic.totbb.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:15 jahmarley: that was the default on linux until this month. 16:41:48 You just have to rebuild it with threads; it's ~5-10 minutes on a decent box. clbuild can take care of everything. 16:43:01 do i need something else than sbcl itself to recompile? 16:43:10 basic gnu toolchain. 16:44:11 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-249.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:44:18 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]"] 16:44:42 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 16:46:11 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:17 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:52:12 -!- Hergonan [n=Zerg@cpc2-bath5-2-0-cust211.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:52:48 Hergonan [n=Zerg@cpc2-bath5-2-0-cust211.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:53:54 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:55:39 -!- jamesstanley [n=james@82-33-61-156.cable.ubr06.stav.blueyonder.co.uk] has left #lisp 16:55:56 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:55:58 -!- hugod [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:55:59 hugod_ [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has joined #lisp 16:56:58 i'll implement a Lisp-Prolog interpreter in C++ (instead of Lisp-only interpreter), w/ lisp syntax. 16:58:23 jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-26-107-104.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:59:13 internally, it uses CAR-CDR nodes. 16:59:37 What's the point of it? 16:59:52 You could check out xcl which is a cl implementation written in c++ 17:01:07 and PAIProlog, of course. 17:01:17 tcr, the point is that there's a part that is not lisp (it's prolog engine) that i want to integrate fine it to the interpreter. 17:02:12 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-151-90.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:02:27 procedulog :) 17:03:01 -!- j0be [n=chatzill@218-106-dsl.ipact.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:03:02 -!- Reaver2 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:04:02 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 17:04:17 e.g. "?x" is not a lisp's symbol, it's a prolog's variable symbol, i reserve this special data for lisp-prolog. 17:05:28 ?x is a lisp symbol 17:05:37 in Prolog we use uppercase for variables 17:05:53 oh sorry I misunderstood you 17:05:59 I see what you mean now 17:06:45 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@173-14-133-149-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 17:08:10 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 17:09:37 the idea is simple, rules in program, programs in rules. 17:12:46 -!- hugod_ [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:13:43 hugod [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has joined #lisp 17:14:00 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-73-232.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:15:46 timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:16:06 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:17:05 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit ["leaving"] 17:17:33 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:17:38 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-64-118-11.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:38 ignotus [n=ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 17:17:43 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:18:16 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 17:19:30 nicdev [n=user@umass-958-247.wireless.umass.edu] has joined #lisp 17:21:12 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBC8BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:22:02 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 17:22:29 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:12 eldragon: a question i have is why not use slotted objects for prolog compounds? 17:27:26 it would be a bit more efficient 17:28:00 for '.'/2 you could use conses 17:28:00 i think if i ever met this Madhu character from cll, i think i punch in the teeth might be in order. 17:29:05 what a brawl it would be if all the characters met 17:29:20 or maybe it would just be a bunch of nerds furiously typing on their laptops about the idiot they're sharing meatspace with :) 17:29:27 eldragon: if you can can use a lisp that still implements locatives.. you can use those for prolog variables 17:30:05 but be careful of drawing unsound inferences 17:30:31 dmiles_afk, prolog compounds can be constructed as lists (ala CARCDR) instead of as slotted objects (or structs). 17:30:32 just because Madhu is obsessive and nutty doesn't mean that "Ron" is honest or that mdj is sensible 17:31:24 Xof: this is very true, but it's easy to ignore ron and mdj's nonsense, and sometimes there is something of value in ron's nonsense... 17:31:53 jewel__ [n=jewel@vc-41-30-56-96.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:31:53 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:32:17 -!- ignotus [n=ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has left #lisp 17:32:18 Xof: Madhu adds nothing for me... i'm not a student of psycology, so watching a proper nutter at work just doesn't 'do it' for me. 17:32:25 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-26-107-104.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:32:51 eldragon: why, are going for variable arity sentences? 17:34:10 eldragon: why build your own prolog instead of using a real one? There's been a lot of work on developing good prolog compilers over the years... 17:34:31 balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 17:35:38 i wuld suggest merging (YAP or SWI prolog) to (Your favorate Lisp) .. making sure the term implmentation was each already a native object to the Lisp 17:36:31 rpg, i don't need efficient lisp compiler or efficient prolog compiler, i need a full integration of lisp and prolog engines with lisp-like syntax. 17:37:01 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:37:03 i'd make sure that every lisp object had some prolog represenation and visa-versa .. and merge the prolog binding trail into a lexical environmnt 17:37:39 Prolog doesn't recognize car-cdr behaviour of lisp, and viceversa, lisp doesn't recognize the inference of prolog. 17:38:13 why do you care about car-cdr? 17:38:21 eldragon: are you using Norvig's prolog? 17:38:27 prolog does do the car-cdr its called myDatabase([Pred|Args]). 17:38:38 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 17:38:54 everytime you wish to store a car-cdr like sentence call myDatabase/1 17:38:57 drewc, i used, but it didn't adjust for me purposes. 17:39:43 myDatabase([Pred|Args]):- CALL =.. [Pred|Args], CALL. 17:39:53 eldragon: but you do have PAIP right? So at least you know how easy it is to implement a prolog with lisp syntax... 17:40:25 drewc, it's not easy. 17:40:46 eldragon: oh? I guess my experience with it was non-typical 17:40:59 jleija_ [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:15 eldragon: why not? Prolog has hardly any syntax, so using s-expressions is pretty straightforward. 17:41:20 i prefer to implement prolog in C++ instead of in Lisp, but using Lisp data structures. 17:41:45 eldragon: well.... you're a nutter then. 17:41:51 eldragon: If you are going to write prolog in C++, I'd say it's going to be a lot easier to manage a Prolog FFI to lisp. 17:41:56 it's not prolog that's hard lol! 17:42:14 if a person is very extreme prolog programmer they will want your impl to do real ISOprolog and levelrage all the cool features.. if someone is very good at lisp they will want the same thing 17:42:57 mainly i am suggesting from the begining to not short either implementation of its features 17:43:09 wait... he's writing a lisp too? 17:43:17 you don't know the thing that i want to implement. 17:43:28 well if he ius hosting in a lisp.. tn he has lisp thankfully 17:44:25 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit ["leaving"] 17:44:35 i'd say a real prolog thru FFI is a good idea.. but also make sure the prolog can unify on unmarshalled lisp objects as well 17:45:21 -!- nicdev [n=user@umass-958-247.wireless.umass.edu] has left #lisp 17:45:37 dmiles_afk, i wanna lisp, i wanna prolog, i want lisp-prolog, and the efficiency is not my objective. 17:45:46 eldragon: i am interested though in hearing 17:46:09 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 17:46:20 eldragon: ah then what is wrong with paip if efficiency is not the concern? 17:46:31 weaker integration of paip 17:46:32 or even stickel PTTP 17:46:45 or even mark stickel's PTTP 17:48:08 eldragon: is the end result going to be an infernce engine? 17:48:20 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.99.249] has joined #lisp 17:49:03 yes, the end result will be an processing & inferencing engine. 17:49:10 -!- besiria [n=user@pantou.lib.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:49:15 if so i'd suggest even www.LarKC.eu 17:49:23 its based on CYC 17:49:46 however its not CL (yet) 17:49:48 eldragon: so, rather than modify PAIP to have tighter integration with the host lisp... you're going to re-write lisp and prolog in c++? 17:50:37 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:50:59 I wish i had that kind of time to waste :) I'm going for breakfast! 17:51:08 dmiles_afk, i won't implement an overcomplex scalable project, i only need to implement a simple non-scalable project. 17:51:12 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:51:32 as a non-scalable calculator. 17:51:53 eldragon: right on.. well you might also try out allegro's prolog 17:53:00 i won't try allegro's prolog, it's propietary, closed, and possibly buggy. 17:53:10 i guess i wonder what is wrong with paip ? 17:53:23 weaker integration of paip 17:53:33 not NIH enough 17:53:36 whats too strong about it? 17:53:42 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 17:53:56 the idea is simple, rules in program, programs in rules. <-- it's strong. 17:54:41 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-204.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:55:35 strong, like a two-legged triangle 17:55:54 eldragon: so allegro's prolog is possibly buggy, and your future C++ implementation of Lisp/Prolog is necessarily non-buggy? 17:56:27 i kind of see what you mean eldragon, well the strongness would be softened by also returning a probailty arg? 17:56:41 adeht, i can repair bugs, i can't propietary's. 17:56:58 probability variable in the unification 17:57:22 eldragon: with allegro, Franz can repair bugs for you 17:58:11 adeht, no more fucking, i've not money to pay the support of the bugs that committed Fran. 17:58:17 thats how someone can introduce softness in pure prolog .. by adding an extra arg called TruthFactor into each fact and rule 17:58:18 -!- feep[nb] [n=feep@p4FD564A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:59:04 feep[nb] [n=feep@p4FD564A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:27 rules consume the factbase's TruthValue and conpute it to return their derived truthvalue 17:59:59 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.253.207] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:01:50 anyhow once in a commerial project did this to a very fast prolog program.. mathmatics was a real slowdown.. mainly when you take a prolog unification that takes 10 cpu cycles then add 110 mre for he computation it ran 1/2 the speed ;( 18:01:52 persistent AI built-in - all the way down (tm) 18:02:02 franz sure know how to pick a good slogan 18:02:16 add 110 mre/add 10 more 18:03:10 anyone here use something not emacs on linux for lisping? 18:03:38 anyhow eldragon it sounds fine what you want to do 18:03:39 Ralith, people who use clisp a lot probably don't use slime 18:03:49 Adlai: I mean in terms of an editor 18:03:53 vim? 18:03:58 minion, nekthuth for Ralith 18:03:59 Ralith: please look at nekthuth: Nekthuth: Connection with a Lisp Nekthuth is the combination of a vim plugin and a common lisp library which enables vim users to start up or connect to a CL interpreter inside vim, and do interesting things with it. http://www.cliki.net/nekthuth 18:04:08 Adlai: not vi either I think. 18:04:17 <_3b> does emacs on win32 count? :p 18:04:17 Any more word on what's up with lispmeister and Successful Lisp? 18:04:25 Ralith, which editor does he prefer? 18:04:26 Ralith: OpenOffice? 18:04:32 _3b: if that's win32 on linux, maybe ^^ 18:04:46 Adlai: right now he is using kate 18:04:54 Ralith: there's also CUSP 18:05:13 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:05:16 An Eclipse plugin that also, I belive, speaks the SWANK protocol. 18:05:29 Or maybe they rolled their own communications with Lisp. 18:05:32 gigamonkey: lispmeister is active on twitter, a bit 18:05:51 gigamonkey: as the choice of kate and avoidance of emacs may imply, heavy IDEs are not to his taste, I'm afraid :/ 18:06:14 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 18:06:33 well unfortunately for your friend, the 'E' in 'IDE' is a pretty significant part of The Common Lisp Experience 18:06:33 Xach: yeah, I was going to direct message him but he doesn't follow me. 18:06:48 there is that ide written in ltka 18:07:00 comes with libraries too, download & run 18:07:17 Adlai: unfortunately. 18:07:19 *Ralith* shrugs 18:07:48 oh, the 'I' also is one of CL's big things... 18:07:55 indeed 18:08:29 -!- somecodehere [n=ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:08:32 Ralith: http://www.cliki.net/Able 18:09:04 actually http://common-lisp.net/project/able 18:09:10 feep,lichtblau: I pushed that fix to clbuild, but didn't really figure out how to fix it properly 18:09:14 xristos: that looks like a maybegood start, thanks 18:10:00 amnesiac_ [n=amnesiac@c-67-169-77-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:14 eldragon: fwiw, the Allegro Prolog /is/ Norvig's PAIP prolog. 18:10:31 Source code may be available, I don't know --- we had them fix bugs for us. 18:10:31 -!- dalkvist_ [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:11:06 Ralith: i frequently use lisp on a screen and push commands to it from vim. I'm sure scite can do that too. It is not swank but it is ok. 18:11:23 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 18:12:18 -!- amnesiac_ [n=amnesiac@c-67-169-77-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:12:25 amnesiac_ [n=amnesiac@c-67-169-77-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:35 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@82.174.238.138] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:12:48 lukego: thanks. I doubt that there is such a thing as "fixing things properly" in the face of spaces in shell variables... 18:13:28 rewrite in zsh probably 18:13:33 -!- BrianB04_ [n=BBommari@c-68-61-113-178.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:14:51 dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 18:15:19 -!- adeht [i=death@bzq-84-110-67-187.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["masticate to dominate"] 18:15:59 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-1-74.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:16:00 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-110-31.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:16:29 -!- jewel__ [n=jewel@vc-41-30-56-96.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:16:29 jleija_: don't think scite can do more than edit files. 18:16:51 -!- hugod [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:16:59 hugod [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has joined #lisp 18:17:40 Ralith: i thought it could execute command lines. That's all you need to talk with the lisp screen. But I might be mistaken, I haven't used it in a long time. 18:18:26 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:18:56 jsoft [n=user@ip-118-90-5-246.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:19:21 lichtblau: yeah. shell is just kind of seductive because you can get it 80% right so neatly 18:19:33 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 18:20:18 -!- jahmarley [n=jahmarle@88.238.46.194] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:20:49 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-250-148.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:28 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:22:48 eno_ [n=eno@70.137.168.223] has joined #lisp 18:22:52 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 18:22:57 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:22:58 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 18:25:07 alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 18:25:20 lukego, alas, the other 20% is no fun at all. 18:25:33 schoppenhauer_ [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:26:06 -!- schoppenhauer_ [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 18:26:11 minion: memo for Fare: Take a look at the SEBS build system: http://code.google.com/p/sebs/ It's written by Kenton Varda, a Google employee who open sourced Google's protocol buffer compiler: http://code.google.com/p/protobuf/ 18:26:11 Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks. 18:26:43 unicode [n=user@95.214.13.142] has joined #lisp 18:29:22 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-24-17-71-15.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:29:24 hjpark [n=user@116.40.135.21] has joined #lisp 18:32:10 Is there a library that abstracts away the details of retrieving command line arguments on the various lisps? Something like what http://www.cliki.net/Portable%20Exit does for exiting? 18:32:10 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-0-85.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:33:21 rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:33:22 malsyned: cl-launch does that as a subset of its bigger task 18:33:34 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:33:39 command-line-arguments (http://common-lisp.net/projects/qitab/) 18:33:47 Xach, isn't cl-launch just a shell script? 18:34:13 malsyned: I like the way you say "just" 18:34:19 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-20-181.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:34:24 Gibraltar is just a rock. 18:34:35 *Fade* laughs 18:35:08 Xach, fair enough, it's a pretty massive shell script, but my point was that it wasn't a lisp library, and so couldn't possibly satisfy my constraints. 18:35:16 Or am I mistaken? 18:35:54 sounds like maybe lichtblau's suggestion is more in the park. 18:36:01 is c-l.net's http server down? 18:36:06 malsyned: I think you're mistaken. 18:36:13 Adlai: i just accessed it. 18:36:30 But yes, I'd go with lichtblau's thing first. 18:36:33 hm, I can't load pages :( 18:36:50 probably just a "netsplit" 18:36:59 crod [n=cmell@125.24.171.136.adsl.dynamic.totbb.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:00 hah. lichtblau's thing uses cl-launch :) 18:37:34 Adlai: WFM too... maybe a routing issue? 18:37:55 yeah, probably. 18:38:36 *lichtblau* isn't certain how the two combine 18:38:41 the dependency from c-l-a to cl-launch is commented out 18:39:53 Xach, I just grabbed cl-launch from its git repo, and there's no lisp there. just shell. 18:40:20 malsyned: Check the documentation. 18:41:52 -!- hjpark [n=user@116.40.135.21] has left #lisp 18:42:31 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@125.24.100.65.adsl.dynamic.totbb.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:42:58 How do I change a defconstant to a defvar? "Cannot proclaim a constant variable special: *FOO*" 18:43:03 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@193.174.12.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:43:12 unintern the symbol 18:43:40 thanks 18:43:42 (and recompile anything that refers to that variable) 18:43:43 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:44:58 oh my.  cl-launch is much more bizarre than I would have (could have?) suspected. 18:45:36 jahmarley [n=jahmarle@88.238.40.231] has joined #lisp 18:45:40 -!- feep[nb] [n=feep@p4FD564A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 18:46:01 malsyned: that's an understatement 18:47:45 lukego: (defconstant *foo* )?! 18:48:47 does prebuild binary packages automatically use the .sbclrc file in user home dir or do i have to keep the init file somewhere else for that? 18:49:26 Xach: A recent change of mine solved your symbol conflict problem; but I think not at all in a way you like :-) 18:49:59 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-054-196.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:01 (sbcl-devel posting comming..) 18:50:02 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-054-196.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 18:51:07 I'm reminded of the old Hoare quote about "obviously no deficiencies" vs. "no obvious deficiencies" 18:51:53 tcr: "Conflict detected, Lisp terminated"? 18:52:13 Kind of just not as bad :-) 18:52:54 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-80.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:54:53 -!- splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-tzhcjzvhydigycmb] has quit ["2much2young"] 18:55:08 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-144-77.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:55:35 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-14-47.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:55:46 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:56:19 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.99.249] has left #lisp 18:57:57 Xach: ha, reminds me of "ERROR: OOM" being a valid CL implementation :) 18:58:36 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-73-232.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:58:50 Axius [n=oijhif@92.82.64.255] has joined #lisp 18:59:07 alex__ [n=alex@95.72.78.115] has joined #lisp 19:00:14 drewc: eh ? 19:00:27 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 19:01:33 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-125-173.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:09 fe[nl]ix: i recall seeing an article that explained that since a conforming implementation is allowed to run out of memory, a conforming implementation could be one that _only_ runs out of memory... 19:02:25 Does anyone happen to know right off hand what sb-kernel:%make-lisp-obj does? 19:02:42 rme: takes a machine word and puns it as a lisp object (tagged value). 19:02:52 -!- hugod [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:02:58 hugod [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has joined #lisp 19:02:59 Unlike the %-less version, it doesn't perform any safety check. 19:03:03 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:03:22 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:47 rme: you mean it's not obvious from the function definition? : (defun %make-lisp-obj (value) (%make-lisp-obj value)) :P 19:03:48 19:04:14 drewc: if there's a VOP defined, the lisp definition is usually a stub. 19:04:43 pkhuong: thanks 19:05:19 random SBCL question of the day: what does the C in SB-C stand for (if anything)? 19:05:24 Adlai: compiler. 19:05:25 pkhuong: yeah, i know, i still get a kick out of meta-circularity :) 19:05:59 *froydnj* remembers being seriously confused by that 19:06:01 pkhuong, thank you, you're on a roll! :D 19:06:14 Adlai: Or ask what the C in C stands for in CMUCL. 19:06:42 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-61-42.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:08:27 heh 19:10:47 froydnj: It wouldn't be as confusing if M-. did also show the primitive 19:11:14 it does... it shows the VOP 19:11:18 tcr, do you mean the VOP? it shows that for me (I'm on recent slime + sbcl) 19:11:24 tcr: it does here. There's only a few VOPs defined very early on that don't have source locations. 19:11:36 What's the safest way to get a lisp string from a C char pointer (which I already have via CFFI)? 19:11:45 hm oh? 19:11:54 it's safe to assume it is UTF-8 encoded, I believe. 19:12:15 Ok, I always tried on CONS, CAR, CDR 19:12:33 Ralith: cffi:foreign-string-to-lisp 19:12:41 tcr: yeah, those are defined in objdef.lisp; not good. 19:12:50 maybe they could be patched up after the fact. 19:12:53 fe[nl]ix: oh handy. 19:12:56 <3 cffi 19:13:22 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-165-120-12.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:40 pkhuong: M-. on error/cerror (defined in cold-error) does also not work perfectly 19:14:25 eek. Any idea why that happens? 19:14:43 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 19:15:40 also 19:15:45 how do I get a NULL in cffi? 19:16:32 pkhuong: No, I meant to submit it to LP but there's a similiar entry already 19:16:33 (null-pointer) 19:16:56 mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 19:17:15 pkhuong: about make-instance, and count; probably unrelated, but I wasn't sure if I should fill the bug tracker with stuff like that, or rather comment on the make-instance on 19:17:20 make-instance one 19:17:29 make-instance? 19:17:35 yes 19:17:39 -!- alex__ is now known as Alexandr 19:17:41 Ralith: have you had a look at CFFI's tutorial? 19:17:45 its defgeneric can't be found either 19:18:10 oh ok. Yeah, PCL is a bit of a beast for source locations. 19:18:14 But what's the problem with count? 19:18:16 pkhuong: Did you see the bit about pcl-caches considered harmful for backtraces entry? 19:18:36 (no location) 19:18:37 (DEFUN COUNT) 19:18:41 luis: not recently. 19:19:01 fe[nl]ix: thanks, didn't realize that was a function call. 19:19:04 was getting very confused. 19:19:05 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.77.65.198] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:19:28 tcr: I guess. Maybe make it a single meta-bug even if the causes are likely all different. 19:19:37 tcr: I did. Xof probably has a better idea. 19:19:51 will do 19:20:20 hah! I found a bug in cl-launch! 19:20:39 malsyned: don't expect any money from Faré 19:21:14 fe[nl]ix, well of course not. It's all about the satisfaction of a job well done. 19:21:42 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 19:22:37 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-14-47.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:25:03 so i'm looking at a case where i need a langauge like prolog to solve a logic problem. does lisp have any libraries for that, or shall i just goto prolog? 19:25:21 *Xach* has déjŕ vu 19:25:22 bah, why is git stash reseting my working directory but then git stash list doesn't show anything new? 19:25:37 -!- bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:26:14 -!- milanj [n=milan@109.93.62.126] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:26:33 eep? 19:26:40 minion: prolog? 19:26:41 prolog: Prolog is a programming language based around logical assertions. http://www.cliki.net/prolog 19:27:07 Demosthenes: ^ 19:27:45 oh, git stash show stash@{whatever} finds my code. Great. But git stash list is not listing them. 19:31:19 -!- rpg [n=rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [] 19:33:16 t3rcio [n=t3rcio@201.88.236.193] has joined #lisp 19:33:30 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 19:34:19 Hello! 19:35:52 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-37-82-253-18-121.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:35:59 I use the Linux Mint ( a based Ubuntu Linux ), and i would know what better program 19:36:01 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-37-82-253-3-130.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:15 for i get started in Lisp 19:36:30 t3rcio: you want to know which lisp to start with? 19:36:31 Can you help me? 19:36:49 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-103-62.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 19:37:06 t3rcio, are you familiar with Emacs? 19:37:38 SBCL and CCL are both great choices, and the best way to use them is through an emacs mode called slime. 19:37:51 I can say "yes". I wrote some programs in Emacs. But , nothing complex 19:37:56 *Fade* agrees 19:38:04 ok 19:38:16 you should also make sure that you wish to learn Common Lisp, and not Scheme or Clojure 19:38:20 SBCL and CCL 19:38:31 Ok 19:38:34 minion: tell t3rcio about PCL 19:38:35 t3rcio: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 19:39:41 minion: tell me about PCL 19:39:41 mathrick: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 19:39:45 Correct me if i wrong, but Scheme and Clojure are languages based on Lisp? ok? 19:40:01 t3rcio: no, they're languages from the Lisp family 19:40:12 common lisp, scheme and clojure are all dialects of lisp family languages. 19:40:34 they share common details but differ in detail. 19:40:38 -!- unicode [n=user@95.214.13.142] has quit ["leaving"] 19:40:44 s/details/features 19:40:44 bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:48 I understand 19:40:56 unicode [n=user@95.214.13.142] has joined #lisp 19:41:05 "What is a Lisp?" 19:41:23 or rather, "What makes a Lisp?" 19:41:42 ask your question of wikipedia. :) 19:41:51 =) 19:42:08 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_%28programming_language%29 19:42:43 another question: i read in the web about kanamit framework. a lisp framework for web-development. 19:43:22 weblocks is worth taking a look at too. 19:43:25 someone already use it? 19:43:45 <_3b> wasn't kanamit the joke one? 19:43:46 kanamit is a practical joke. 19:44:35 heh, can't say I've heard of kanamit here 19:45:24 <_3b> hmm, didn't know that was a twilight zone episode 19:45:26 seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:05 feep[nb] [n=feep@p4FD564A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:07 have you a location where i can read more about kanamit? 19:46:29 drewc: I'm sure you've heard this before, but is it possible that paste.lisp.org could default to "unnamed" when no paste title is given? 19:47:06 it would be really nice to be able to strace sbcl. 19:47:08 feep[nb]: what does it do now? 19:47:16 drewc: error out 19:47:39 careful, that might be a spam-reduction feature 19:47:49 -!- Alexandr [n=alex@95.72.78.115] has quit ["    (xchat 2.4.5  )"] 19:47:54 kpreid: I think that would be the "captcha that always stays the same". 19:48:01 point 19:48:32 feep[nb]: but the title is pre-entered as 'untitled' non? one would have to make a concious effort to remove the string... 19:48:44 (also, it's not mine, talk to chandler :)) 19:48:47 drewc: wasn't pre-entered here. 19:48:49 drewc: (konq) 19:48:55 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.22.42] has joined #lisp 19:49:18 .. now it is. I'm confused. 19:49:21 someone got too clever 19:49:24 19:49:25 drewc: If I accidentally erased it, I apologize. 19:49:52 I recommend removing this javascript or replacing it with one that forces select-all rather than deleting the text 19:49:54 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:49:59 I probably alt-tabbed through it 19:50:02 Alexandr [n=Alexandr@95.72.78.115] has joined #lisp 19:50:08 ahh, that would do it 19:50:45 will that wipe out the X selection which I intended to paste? 19:51:04 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:51:34 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-144-77.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:51:48 Guys, thank you very much for all tips. I will deep dive in Lisp! 19:51:50 right.. and is there any guarantee that inputs must work by overwriting selected text? 19:52:01 au revoir 19:52:27 <_3b> it could reset it in onblur if it is '' 19:52:29 point 19:52:39 -!- t3rcio [n=t3rcio@201.88.236.193] has quit ["Saindo"] 19:52:48 macdice [n=user@222-152-88-82.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:53:01 personally I'd just leave out the JS entirely 19:53:15 surely replacing the content of a field is something users habitually do 19:53:41 i think _3b's solution is the least intrusive and in the spririt of the original design. 19:53:48 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:53:51 <_3b> would be annoying to delete it if navigating with keyboard 19:53:53 but it's not mine, it's chandler's :) 19:53:55 davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:32 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp121-45-34-54.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:11 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:01:37 712 named-readtables.lisp 20:01:38 721 tests/tests.lisp 20:01:44 I guess that makes me a good boy :-) 20:04:00 milanj [n=milan@109.93.23.248] has joined #lisp 20:04:01 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:06:53 So if you can use internal vs. external symbols to differentiate API from implementation details, what is the %-prefix convention for? 20:07:24 malsyned: low/high level. 20:07:35 some use % for slots. 20:07:40 or internal versus really internal. 20:07:58 malsyned: don't forget that packages manage *symbols*, which can be used to name several resources. 20:08:52 I see % to mean "caution: depends highly on context", fsvo "context" 20:09:36 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 20:09:48 ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 20:10:52 -!- feep[nb] [n=feep@p4FD564A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 20:11:12 -!- raison [n=raison@70.90.182.149] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:12:18 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.22.42] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:12:40 retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has joined #lisp 20:13:23 is there a popular/standard unit test framework for common lisp? xlunit maybe? 20:14:07 retroj, I think RT, Stefil, and 5AM are the popular ones nowadays. 20:14:21 -!- whoppix_ [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:14:23 retroj: popular yes, standard no 20:14:51 francogrex [n=user@172.38-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:15:28 any personal recommendations? 20:15:29 hi, how can I have the tab integrated in this iterator? (format nil "~@{~A ~}" "30Nov2009, 14Dec2009, 15Dec2009" "07-Dec-09" #\TAB) 20:15:55 retroj: fiveam and stefil are nice 20:15:57 retroj, I like 5AM, or my fork (Eos) which doesn't depend on Arnesi. My fork is not stable, though. 20:15:59 I'd like a tab between the first string and the second 20:16:22 "~@{~A~^(literal tab)~}" 20:16:37 Adlai: Eos ? 20:17:14 thank you 20:17:18 ok but soryy the first arg is a list like that (i made a mistake: (format nil "~@{~A ~}" '("30Nov2009, 14Dec2009, 15Dec2009" "07-Dec-09") #\TAB) 20:17:24 I like RT for its simplicity; you can just slurp it into your project 20:17:50 it's probably not so good if you use clos 20:17:57 or have lots of state 20:18:27 mstevens_ [n=mstevens@81.2.103.24] has joined #lisp 20:18:57 retroj: i've used them all, and prefer ASSERT now 20:19:14 (when i do need more than i want to write by hand, i use stefil) 20:19:35 drewc: just the function ASSERT? 20:19:51 fe[nl]ix, it's on github. I haven't done a lot of work on it, though... my goal is to keep 5AM's nice bits (imo, IS and nested suites) but aim for a more RT-like simplicity 20:20:03 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:20:19 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-49-223.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [] 20:20:27 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 20:20:33 retroj: indeed.. for easily testable things, rather than work at the repl i work in a test.lisp file that is a lot of ASSERTs (or a small macro over it) 20:20:35 drewc: the *macro i mean 20:20:57 good point. thank you 20:20:58 If I ever took the time to properly look at stefil, and integrate it into slime trunk, I'd probably use that 20:21:34 drewc: I use rt.lisp for that. Slurp rt.lisp into my project, then build some domain-specific infrastructure on top of it 20:21:47 retroj: the 'ad hoc test suite' pattern is fairly popular given the ease with which it's done :) 20:21:59 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A87D6.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:22:45 drewc: I'm particularly proud of http://common-lisp.net/project/sequence-iterators/darcs/sequence-iterators/tests/tests.lisp 20:22:52 francogrex: maybe you want ~T 20:23:26 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:23:49 drewc: that file generates, I forgot, ~600 deftests :-) 20:24:13 tcr: i like my monolithic compiler tests of doom ;) 20:24:21 tcr: very nice indeed! 20:24:22 "Mm.. Looks like something broke" 20:25:11 pkhuong: What did you do? 20:25:30 a macro that generates tons of forms with inline functions. 20:25:40 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:25:50 It got so bad that it exhausted the heap on some cheneygc platforms. 20:26:10 *_3b* wonders if any of the TDD people have written a compiler, i'd like to see how they would test that sort of thing 20:26:11 nicdev [n=user@st401-104.subnet-246.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 20:26:33 I finally moved it to impure tests so that the test forms were at the toplevel (with the inline functions as defuns instead of labels). 20:26:44 tcr: I actually use a macro IS for tests themselvesm like : (is (eql 1 foo)). i inline a version that expands to ASSERT at first, and when i find i need more, both stefil and 5am use 'IS', so it's trivial to move my tests there. 20:26:56 huh 20:27:05 I just found a very surprising thinko in CLHS 20:27:16 clhs svref 20:27:16 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_svref.htm 20:27:16 drewc: heh 20:27:44 _3b: They have to master Sudoku solvers before they move on to compilers. One thing at a time. 20:28:00 take a look at the "element, new-element" line in the Arguments and Values 20:28:16 _3b: make sure each internal representation has executable semantics. 20:28:35 check for equivalence before and after each pass. 20:28:45 <_3b> pkhuong: hmm, i suppose that would be a start 20:29:02 Krystof, everything is a subtype of T? 20:29:06 adeht: not working: (format t "~{~A~T~}" '("30Nov2009, 14Dec2009, 15Dec2009" "07-Dec-09")) 20:29:52 Adlai: yes 20:29:58 francogrex: what's "not working" about it? 20:29:59 heh 20:30:40 krystof: its nice you have highlighted that though, I can make use of that fact in something 20:30:50 -!- nicdev [n=user@st401-104.subnet-246.amherst.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 20:30:57 Krystof: array element type, not upgraded? 20:31:07 ruediger_ [n=quassel@93-82-14-154.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:31:16 Krystof: what do you mean by ^(literal tab) ? because (format str "~{~A~^(literal tab)~}" '("30Nov2009, 14Dec2009, 15Dec2009" "07-Dec-09")) is outputting 30Nov2009, 14Dec2009, 15Dec2009(literal tab)07-Dec-09 20:31:16 20:31:35 -!- dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [Client Quit] 20:31:39 francogrex: i'm pretty sure he means a literal tab 20:31:40 you took Krystof's words too literal 20:32:14 nicdev [n=user@st401-104.subnet-246.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 20:32:28 francogrex: C-q will get you one in emacs 20:32:28 20:32:46 dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 20:32:53 (and by i mean press the key marked Tab, or possibly funny arrows, or both) 20:32:56 :P 20:33:08 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 20:33:17 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-188-82.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:33:19 -!- ruediger_ is now known as ruediger 20:33:26 (format t "~{~a~^, ~}" '(1 2 3)) 20:33:30 bah, wrong buffer 20:33:43 gigamonkey: you use ERC too? 20:33:52 Oh yeah. 20:34:00 *drewc* always things the ERC> prompt looks a lot like a CL-USER> prompt 20:34:04 thinks* 20:34:05 pkhuong: I'm pretty sure it would be the actual array type 20:34:07 ERC represent1 20:34:09 ! 20:34:23 you guys are good 20:34:28 tmh [n=user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 20:34:30 i'm going to name a package ERC just to fsck with myself. 20:34:32 *stassats`* changed ERC> to just > 20:34:34 Greetings lispers. 20:34:38 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 20:35:05 stassats`: that's a good idea... what do i even need a prompt in ERC for anyway! 20:35:06 *tmh* needs to remember to configure ERC to supress join/part messages. 20:35:20 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 20:35:36 adhet when I output to a file, the difference "15Dec2009" "07-Dec-09" is a space not a tab 20:36:11 tmh: (setq erc-hide-list '("JOIN" "PART" "QUIT")) 20:36:19 i'll try drew's suggestion 20:36:27 -!- retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has left #lisp 20:36:36 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.223.234] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 20:36:44 francogrex: ~T tabulates using spaces 20:37:56 I wish Chrome's awesome bar was as awesome as Firefox's. 20:40:48 francogrex: if you dislike the idea of having your code at the mercy of some editor changing literal tab characters to spaces on you some day, you could check out http://weitz.de/cl-interpol/ 20:41:12 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:27 -!- mstevens_ [n=mstevens@81.2.103.24] has quit [] 20:41:36 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 20:41:38 gabnet [n=gabnet@226.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:43 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-14-154.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:42:04 He should probably not using tabs at all 20:42:22 lichtblau: ping 20:42:37 ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-14-154.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:43:51 gigamonkey: Firefox's awesome bar isn't, unless recommending the same stuff to me for past two years that I never visit nor want to visit is "awesome". 20:45:05 gigamonkey: ok thanks i'll check it out 20:45:13 hefner: hmmmm. It at least seems to do a better job than Chrome of suggesting the things that I actually go to. 20:45:30 sometimes I think it's deliberately trying to raise my blood pressure by putting "A Programmer's Plea to Laptop Makers" (not even one of my bookmarks!) under proggit everytime I go there, given my strong opinions on laptop keyboards and disagreement with everything in that article :) 20:45:40 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-61-42.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:46:38 hefner, also I think if you arrow down over a selection and press Del it'll unconsider/lower priority (not sure how that interacts if the line is Bookmarked item) 20:46:44 to it's credit, I can type "gmail" and get to gmail, a test which opera 9.5 fails. 20:47:13 minion: thwap to hefner 20:47:14 hefner: direct your attention towards thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 20:47:21 If I type "ca" its top suggestion is my Google calendar page. In Chrome it suggests some web site I've never been to (or maybe once, by accident because it suggested it) 20:47:24 *_3b* likes the multiple term incremental search bit 20:47:46 hefner: works in 10.10 20:47:53 plus what happened to all the crazy blue-sky features we were promised, like full-text searching of the browser history? 20:48:11 I have re and red going to reddit-lisp and reddit-programming 20:48:34 -!- Bucciarati [n=buccia@212.45.155.126] has left #lisp 20:48:47 Perhaps a #webbrowser? 20:49:21 fe[nl]ix: hi there 20:49:26 written in #lisp, to save the mankind 20:49:32 *Krystof* wades into the tedious cll megathread 20:49:41 Or may I suggest Closure? 20:49:43 Krystof: which one? 20:49:50 pjb, here you're more likely to get closure on the topic if you use :webbrowser 20:50:05 "Best way to process a list"? 20:50:15 marioxcc [n=user@200.77.65.198] has joined #lisp 20:50:19 Killfile it? 20:50:26 pjb: yeah, sorry. I can bitch about ECL for a while instead, seeing as I'm way over my off-topic quota. 20:50:30 gigamonkey: yeah 20:50:37 I don't like it when Ron gets it all his own way 20:51:17 sorry, drewc 20:52:09 Krystof: no need to apologize here, it's not like you 20:52:14 lichtblau: why did you fork conium off ? isn't it one more thing to maintain ? 20:52:20 .. are the one going crazy on cll 20:52:25 :D 20:52:40 prxq [n=mommer@f052125034.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:52:45 drewc: not yet, anyway 20:53:27 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-22-246.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:27 Krystof: fair enough... i've had the desire to 'go postal' on a few characters there more than once, that's for sure. 20:54:36 I /think/ I can resist the temptation to get sucked in completely; for a start, I'm way too busy 20:54:51 fe[nl]ix: yes, but on the other hand, one less thing that might change underneath and break my code while I'm not watching 20:56:19 Besides, swank is full of stuff that isn't required here. I felt more comfortable removing everything covered by different libraries (bxthreads, iolib, wire/remote) already, basically leaving only stuff that is related strongly to compilers, debugging, xref. 20:56:25 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 20:57:00 My only regret is not starting from a full git conversion, which would make it easier to cherry-pick changes from upstream. 20:57:49 does anyone here know how x86-64 treats upper 16bit of pointer? (addresses are 48bit but are stored inside 64bit register...) 20:58:10 hi 20:58:44 p_l: ignored, but the ABI mandates that they must all be equal (all 0 or all 1), iirc. 20:58:46 lichtblau: that can be fixed. you've only pushed 7 commits 20:59:18 pkhuong: so you can't put random data (tags) there? 20:59:25 p_l: you have to mask it out. 20:59:53 It probably would make things harder for fixnum arithmetic anyway. 21:00:24 hmm... checked it, not allowed without masking because the cpu might implement full 64bit pointers 21:02:02 p_l: are you familiar with the 68000? :) 21:02:23 If there were Ferengi rules of programming, the 11th rule of programming might be: never use the upper "unused" bits in pointers to store data. 21:02:47 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.6.63] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:04:27 balooga1 [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 21:04:49 tmh pasted "LOOP Indentation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93116 21:05:36 tmh: i like the latter 21:06:03 <_3b> just so long as you don't put DO or COLLECT or whatever at the end of a line :p 21:07:01 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:07:13 tmh: i do it the first way, only because emacs traditionally barfed on the latter 21:07:57 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:08:15 I like the do at the end of the last line, I thought the indent of the body was beneficial 21:08:16 <_3b> tmh: do you really have the loop clauses aligned with loop? 21:08:35 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Client Quit] 21:09:44 *_3b* currently has a 2 space indent, whether the body starts on same line or next 21:09:45 rme: what happened ? 21:10:13 hm. I'm surprised to say that sb-bsd-sockets actually seems a bit high-level :). life would be easier if it were all file descriptors instead of actual socket objects 21:10:25 Wow. That is a tedious megathread. 21:10:47 and now seeing the sb-ext:finalize on inet-sockets explains some stuff that had me really confused. 21:11:22 gigamonkey: which one? 21:11:44 "What is the best way to process this list" 21:11:49 oh yeah 21:12:50 so, do you guys kill the whole thread (in which case you will miss my pearls of wisdom), or do you just skip it? 21:13:13 Krystof: I just skip it 21:13:35 (message by message) 21:14:24 I have it scored down, but I still see it, and sample it occasionally. 21:14:28 -!- Axius [n=oijhif@92.82.64.255] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:14:36 I wonder if I should learn scoring 21:14:56 otoh, it really is *much* ado about nothing. 21:15:06 Krystof: in gnus, hit L for lower. :-) 21:15:09 -!- sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 21:15:12 Krystof: ah, you responded to one message that I did read 21:15:44 OKay, that thread is yet another reason it's a pity they didn't just remove DEFSTRUCT from the language. ;-) 21:16:21 heh 21:16:28 grr. 21:16:44 unicode_ [n=user@95.214.18.174] has joined #lisp 21:16:47 they should have added DESTRUCT instead 21:16:57 hefner: yeah, I know about the infamous use of upper 8 bits of pointer on 68k :D 21:16:59 oh sorry 21:17:13 "Lisp has a strong cultural bias against creating *new* abstractions, preferring instead to pun mainly on cons cells." WTF?! 21:17:19 I just wanted to check if I can do something like that *without* creating such breakage 21:17:25 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 21:17:27 gigamonkey: oh, it's not just me who had that response then? Good 21:17:32 gigamonkey: where did that come from?! 21:17:34 gigamonkey: "pun"? :D 21:17:39 ok, that sounds stupid enough that I might need to check out the thread 21:18:04 look for the message I replied to 21:18:46 there are tedious branches that are really really dull, not just dull and wrong 21:18:56 Krystof: when did you answer? 21:18:57 hefner: I guess I can always do a scan for bigger chunk than 64bit and catch direct usage of pointers instead of tagging them 21:19:06 prxq: not long ago 21:19:15 it'll take a bit of time to propagate, as usual 21:19:18 chiiph1 [n=chiiph@190.1.53.231] has joined #lisp 21:19:21 ok 21:19:43 froydnj: Krystof's answer was for you too, I think. Ron Garret's message that Krystof replied to. 21:20:21 -!- francogrex [n=user@172.38-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:20:48 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:20:48 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:21:17 is there anyway to pass parameters by reference to functions? 21:21:42 "ok, that sounds stupid enough that I might need to check out the thread" That says something, I think, about the place c.l.l. fills in our hearts. 21:22:00 chiiph1: no. 21:22:04 chiiph1: why do you want to do this? 21:22:17 wow. that's some thread. and some screed on conses 21:23:01 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-105-74.wbs.co.za] has quit ["Zzz..."] 21:23:34 stassats`: well... I have to implement a method that should return 3 different values... 21:24:02 chiiph1: try (values 1 2 3) 21:24:15 hmm "Argh! error within --disable-debugger error handling" 21:24:31 ok, who wants a peek at a work in progress? 21:24:53 Xach: sure 21:25:01 shoot 21:25:04 [1]Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp121-45-10-65.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:05 after all, I have incentive to maximize your revenue! 21:25:06 -!- oconnore_ [n=eric@c-66-31-124-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:25:12 "At the moment I am working with recipes." <= does this remind anybody else of "... can you exlpain this using apples?" 21:25:19 _3b: Sorry, had a distraction, I do indent loops like that, mainly because of the reason drewc mentioned. I recently updated emacs and am struggling with the new indentation rules. 21:25:49 *Xach* uploads 21:26:08 Adlai: haha 21:26:54 fe[nl]ix: oks... I'll check that... 21:26:57 oh wow. I thought better of ron. 21:27:21 prxq: you get over that. 21:27:57 http://xach.com/tmp/unm/7639aac9.html is an entry point 21:28:22 prxq: he's incredibly annoying 21:28:29 *tcr* finds out about the SB-C-CALL nickname 21:28:46 Is there a known problem (perhaps already fixed) with SBCL's decode-universal-time having a Y2010 bug of some sort? Right now, SBCL tells me it is Feb 8. 21:28:52 *Xach* needs to add indexing and more interlinking 21:29:02 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:12 otoh, everyone says something stupid once in a while. 21:29:57 hefner: no, I don't know of such a problem 21:30:08 -!- saba [n=saba@c213-89-102-144.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:30:26 Xach: it's an interface to newsgroup archives? 21:30:54 the month and date are 1-based -- have you added 1+ somewhere? 21:31:05 Fade: a subset - it's only Erik Naggum's articles. 21:31:19 ahh. neat 21:31:21 Xach: cool! 21:31:27 Xach: could you not use the message-id (or the bit before the @naggum.no) in the URL, rather than a hash? 21:31:39 maybe I could add some to usenet-gems.org 21:32:04 Krystof: It's possible. 21:32:06 how many articles did he write? 21:32:27 Krystof: ah. somehow I never noticed they were 1-based. Since I wrote this code in June, it isn't impossible to think I wouldn't have noticed it telling me "Jul" instead. 21:32:29 Fade: Lots. The archive I got had around 5,000 articles of his from comp.lang.lisp, which is a subset of his total output. 21:32:45 wow. i had no idea he was that prolific 21:32:47 The URL for these articles is temporary; please don't link to any of them. 21:32:49 -!- Alexandr is now known as help 21:32:50 Hello! I have a string and I need to align it to a line of a known length somehow. I wonder if there is a formatting directive to make string left/right aligned 21:33:03 freiksenet: look at the options to ~a 21:33:08 It'll be 404s in a day or two as I finish it up and move to a final location. 21:33:09 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:33:11 post to planet.lisp when it as a permanent home! 21:33:19 -!- help is now known as Guest35624 21:33:34 -!- Guest35624 is now known as Alexandr 21:34:09 I'm open to suggestions for useful ways to index the collection. I intend to do per-year pages with chronologically ordered links that show the subjects. 21:34:27 I'd like for Google to do the search for me. 21:34:32 Xach: source is garret's cll archive ? 21:34:36 xristos: Yes. 21:34:41 With some fixups. 21:34:44 Fade: once upon a time there was war in c.l.l.. After the everyone was exhausted, and volume came down again, someone calculated that EN spent about 8 hours a day writing articles. 21:34:53 it'd be interesting to make it semantically grouped by topic. 21:34:57 gigamonkey: is ~A the same? 21:35:02 yes. 21:35:03 (the cll archive clobbered all non-ascii, non-UTF8-encoded characters) 21:35:16 gigamonkey: okay, thnx :) 21:36:05 I'm amazed at the longevity of a forum like cll. I just opened it for the first time in many years and so many of the same names (Kenny Tilton, even) 21:36:08 Xach: one thing to consider might be javascript magic to get the arrow keys to do next/prev 21:36:12 EN's perl commentary is always worth a few laughs. 21:36:14 how is cells doing? :) 21:36:38 I'm a little curious why subtracting between 8 and 38 days worth of seconds from the current universal time decodes to a month of NIL, though. Is there a gap, or am I being stupid? 21:36:52 Krystof: fwiw, the hash is a straight hash of the message-id. 21:37:00 er, nevermind. 21:37:23 -!- unicode [n=user@95.214.13.142] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:37:40 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:37:41 -!- [1]Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp121-45-10-65.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:37:53 neverminding 21:39:00 I also omitted the month of October from the list, compounding my confusion. 21:39:25 Xach: index by author? or are they all EN's 21:41:03 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-21.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:44 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp121-45-34-54.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:42:51 -!- gabnet [n=gabnet@226.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:43:15 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 21:43:19 Xach: it would be nice if there was a way to search that collection. Usually one is looking for specific posts. 21:43:56 Xach: next suggestion: Joe Marshall 21:44:02 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32EACC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:17 hefner: haha 21:45:07 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 21:46:23 Xach: I wonder if for those messages that are the start of a thread, whether offering the rest of the thread would be a valuable option 21:47:11 I'd like to specialize a method for universal-times, but am having a hard time finding a good type specifier. Is there a better type to use than the (integer 0 115...) returned by #'type-of? 21:47:34 argh, format is painful. how can I pass variable from outside to the format specifier? I want to give width variable as mincol of ~a 21:47:48 -!- chiiph1 [n=chiiph@190.1.53.231] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6.3"] 21:48:04 use v 21:50:23 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:23 ryepup: methods don't specialise on types. 21:50:40 pkhuong: my REPL agrees 21:51:06 my mistake. I'll use "integer" for now, that's probably close enough 21:51:20 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:51:22 stassats: thanks, that works :) 21:55:18 Dawgmatix [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:41 freiksenet: I'm sorry I haven't come around replying to your mails 21:56:09 tcr: no problem :) parser is generally usable already, though not tested 21:56:27 "it actually seems that language evolution is now in vogue. all my favorite 21:56:27 tools have cancer." -- Naggum 21:56:42 it is just that I wanted to make a better interface to define alternate grammar styles for it, like real ebnf or clhs ebnf 21:58:17 Xach: otherwise, looks good 22:02:48 does CL have something to do '(1 1 3 3 4 3 4 1 4) => '(1 3 4) 22:02:58 yes 22:03:15 and pray tell what might that be 22:03:25 clhs remove-duplicates 22:03:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_dup.htm 22:03:29 ah 22:03:35 so obvious, doh 22:03:43 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-10093.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 22:05:30 so, I have this kind of thing "~v,1,v, A" 22:06:10 it seems that space is bad 22:06:23 how do I correctly write space character there? #\Space does not work too :( 22:06:37 space is the default 22:06:49 eh? there should be no space inside thew format directive 22:06:54 ' 22:06:59 oh 22:07:25 ryepup: the right way is to use a date/time library, or wrap times in a simple struct you can dispatch on. 22:07:30 freiksenet: for answers to your questions, please _read_ http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm 22:07:38 when you think you've read it, read it again 22:07:45 stassats': okay, that works now. it does not do any padding though 22:07:51 Krystof: I am reading it constantly 22:08:06 it is quite cryptic about this topic 22:08:13 it is utterly explicit about this topic 22:08:25 "Prefix parameters are notated as signed (sign is optional) decimal numbers, or as a single-quote followed by a character" 22:08:35 "In place of a prefix parameter to a directive, V (or v) can be used." 22:09:15 tsuru [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:35 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f75677f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:09:45 freiksenet: does for me 22:10:29 Ah, now I remember another reason I isolate loop on a line and only indent loop keywords and forms 1, I have nested loops and if the keywords and forms are indented 6, I run out of space faster. 22:10:46 *tmh* is not multi-tasking with #lisp very well. 22:10:55 statsats`: well mincol works, but minpad does not seem to insert any characters on right (or left with @) 22:10:59 Jabberwock [n=jens@port-10093.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 22:12:02 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 22:13:41 freiksenet: doesn't seem? 22:13:58 statsats`: well unless my eyes fail me :) 22:14:15 I was initially annoyed with the old style, but it grew on me, now I'm not sure I like the more canonical version as shown in the CLHS. 22:14:20 or some other body part 22:14:40 CL-USER> (format nil "~50,1,5a" "test") 22:14:40 "test " 22:15:03 (length (format nil "~50,1,5a" "test")) => 50 22:15:11 sounds right 22:15:33 also, 1 for colinc is the default too 22:16:10 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:16:23 (out (:a "test" :width 50 :min-pad 5)) ;) 22:16:26 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:39 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 22:17:18 -!- alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:18:07 *hefner* always has to look up the format options, usually can't remember how to quote a padding character 22:19:11 hefner: with a quote? That's one of the only things I do remember about format. 22:19:15 adeht: hm, I don't seem to have this thign in sbcl, is it in some external librariy? 22:19:21 library* 22:19:31 svaksham [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 22:19:37 it is 22:19:45 freiksenet: yes it's a small hack 22:19:53 but, real men use format 22:20:08 I'd rather be unreal man. 22:20:15 -!- Jabberwock [n=jens@port-10093.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:20:21 (out (:d 12345 :width 8 :pad-char #\0 :base 16)) much easier for me than the corresponding format-string 22:21:00 and I can define a user-op, so that instead of that I can do (out (:u x 12345)) for the same result 22:21:11 yeah, but you can't do (setf out) 22:21:20 printf("%08X ", foo) is even better 22:21:41 Krystof: can I do (setf format) ? 22:21:48 -!- crod [n=cmell@125.24.171.136.adsl.dynamic.totbb.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:21:56 hefner: I don't think so 22:22:01 adeht: up to a point 22:22:02 scanf wins 22:22:05 adeht, you can do EVERYTHING you want. Sometimes it takes effort, though. 22:22:06 Fare, memo from Guest837`: Take a look at the SEBS build system: http://code.google.com/p/sebs/ It's written by Kenton Varda, a Google employee who open sourced Google's protocol buffer compiler: http://code.google.com/p/protobuf/ 22:22:26 thank you, Guest. 22:22:35 (not really, but... I experimented in that direction oh goodness 10 years ago) 22:22:44 adeht: out is undefined function for me, how can I use it? 22:22:56 -!- balooga1 [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:23:05  Christophe Rhodes, 2000 22:23:08 go latin-1 22:23:18 freiksenet: it is an external library 22:23:21 freiksenet: http://github.com/death/constantia .. has some other weird hacks 22:23:22 best character set ever! 22:23:28 adeht: thanks 22:24:02 *tcr* makes (asdf:test-system :foo :coverage "/tmp/coverage/") work 22:24:54 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-64-118-11.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:24:57 btw, I'm somewhat dissatisfied with CLOS for the kind of work I'm doing currently on XCVB. What are the alternatives? Maybe a good prototype-based system? One with multiple-dispatch still? 22:25:17 you really want to pull another object system?? 22:25:39 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:25:44 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:25:52 tcr: I want to be able to extend XCVB in a light-weight way. 22:25:56 In my searching for loop examples, I, of course, landed on the iterate page. I've never had anything against iterate, just haven't bothered to look at it. But, on the front page is a comparison between an iterate form and a loop form where the loop for is pathologically written. That example causes me problems. 22:25:57 Fare: you may want to look at Sheeple if you're that crazy. 22:26:06 how about a hash table and a dream? 22:26:13 I suppose I could do a lot of macro processing on top of CLOS or otherwise myself. 22:26:17 Fare: Alternately, contextl is brilliant 22:26:39 drewc, I've heard of it (Sheeple). Is it any good? 22:26:51 contextl layers are like prototype singletons of a sort. 22:26:59 contextl has brilliant features, but none that I need for XCVB (I think). 22:27:27 in XCVB, I'm not adding new aspects to existing objects, I'm adding new kinds of objects to a collection of behaviors. 22:27:36 together with syntax to represent them. 22:28:00 i.e. "oh, we want to add this kind of files (e.g. C files, C object files, etc.)" 22:28:09 and here are things you can do with them. 22:28:16 sleepydog [n=david@64-252-33-33.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:38 currently, I'm adding plenty of code all over the place for what should hopefully be simpler. 22:28:42 ok, and how do generic functions and classes not cover that? 22:29:16 Fare, Sheeple fits the bill of a prototype object system with multiple dispatch (and multiple delegation). It may not be exactly what you're looking for, though; it's very dynamic. 22:29:26 they do, but make it somewhat painful, especially at the syntax vs representation interface. 22:29:30 as in runtime dynamic, not as in defvar dynamic. 22:30:33 also, sykopomp and I haven't put much effort into making it thread-safe, although rereading "thread safe", I realize that's probably not an issue for XCVB. 22:30:33 so my hyper-braindead proxy has no problem proxying 5GB/s between two loopback sockets (i.e. 10GB/s total). this is quite a bit quicky than what I had from a braindead Erlang proxy, even though it used a bunch of cores 22:30:53 how should i use the clim listener, should i create it as a new process? because when i do that, it halts when dropped to ldb, is there a mcclim debugger that clim listener can drop on error instead of implementation console? 22:31:22 also, my current system doesn't automatically enforce through any kind of static typing or whatever that all the cases are covered by all the functions that matter. Not undoable to walk generic functions and check that all subclasses have methods, but a pain. 22:31:37 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:45 jahmarley: ldb is not that debugger 22:31:54 jahmarley: there's a clim debugger. it isn't much, but it will pop up a debugger window instead of letting slime or whoever handle the error. 22:32:09 Adlai, yeah, XCVB is single-threaded. I am using async IO with IOLib, though. 22:32:16 hefner: how can i load 22:32:17 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 22:32:22 to drive many subprocesses. 22:32:25 hefner: how can i load it? 22:32:35 What's wrong with: :in-order-to ((test-op (load-op :foo-test) (test-op :foo-test)))? 22:32:45 doesn't seem to have any effect 22:32:47 lukego, do you have a CL<->Erlang interface? 22:32:58 no 22:33:06 jahmarley: look at the file mcclim/Apps/Debugger/clim-debugger.lisp, it talks about how to load it (just compile the file) 22:33:22 there was a google SoC project related to lisp/erlang a couple of years ago, iirc. 22:33:25 dunno what became of it. 22:33:29 Fade: nothing. 22:33:49 Fade: yeah, I know them too well :-/ 22:33:55 too bad. :/ 22:34:18 Fare, I don't think async IO would be problematic for Sheeple, but I'd be interested to know if you experiment with it and find issues. 22:34:20 A erlang-in-lisp project that starts off with "let's use system threads at first" doesn't inspire confidence. 22:34:33 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 22:34:42 heh 22:34:54 yeah, well, not exactly the erlang way. 22:35:24 Adlai: there's an issue up on redmine regarding making Sheeple thread-safe. There's some stuff to take care of, but it shouldn't be too horrible. 22:35:38 Fare, by the way, if you're looking for an opinion on Sheeple that's not from one of the developers -- Check Patrick Stein's blog at http://nklein.com 22:35:45 faux` [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 22:35:52 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-21.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:36:10 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:36:17 Sheeple is clearly the best thing since sliced bread. Ask rahul, he'll tell you. 22:36:22 Can anyone point me to a system that uses :in-order-to? 22:36:27 -!- svaksham [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:37:09 tcr: arnesi, bordeaux-threads, zebu, zebu-rr, ironclad 22:37:19 Adlai, have you looked at Slate? 22:37:30 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-177-21.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:41 svaksham [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 22:37:43 Fare, yes, Slate's PMD is a strong influence on Sheeple's message/reply system 22:37:58 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:38:07 tcr: also binascii cl-cont, cl-stm, trivial-backtrace 22:38:30 Adlai: by "strong influence", you mean "sykopomp copied the algorithm" 22:40:40 what about Slate's recent design changes wrt delegation? 22:40:51 (not that I understand them) 22:41:10 fe[nl]ix, ave 22:41:21 ave Faré 22:42:11 Fare: the last thing I heard about Slate and delegation is that it used to have a clusterfucky delegation system that went by-slot. Then it moved to just delegation through parents. Has there been anything else since then? 22:42:23 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:43:00 Last I spoke to Brian about it, he had less than nice things to say about delegation, but after using it myself (in quite a few projects), I don't think I agree with his general opinion about it. He blamed a lot of nasty Slate bugs on it. 22:43:25 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:44:57 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.223.234] has joined #lisp 22:45:03 AndChat| [n=AndChat@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:28 disumu [n=disumu@p54BCDB04.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:30 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:46:19 -!- AndChat| [n=AndChat@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:46:23 -!- svaksham [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:46:57 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 22:49:02 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:30 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:49:34 man. "intuitive indentation", aka broken indentation. 22:49:51 Keep the extra whitespace inside tags, thanks. 22:50:34 (that was re net-xml-generator :) 22:51:32 The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned. 22:51:35 hmm sb-cover does not relate signal of condition to definition of that condition 22:51:57 -!- hugod [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has quit [] 22:53:55 Fare: and as many mothers with newborns can tell you, a nipple is not all that intuitive. 22:54:36 nah, newborns are just morons 22:55:00 -!- faux` [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:55:10 faux` [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 22:55:28 Octopuses aren't taught anything by parents, so clearly your interface needs more tentacles. 22:55:32 Fare: if it's so intuitive, what are you supposed to do with male ones? 22:56:04 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:56:07 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:56:10 have you not heard about male lactation? 22:57:24 program errors don't make an interface more intuitive 22:57:43 Xach, I heard it's extremely important to give the breast to the baby ASAP after birth 22:58:21 Xach, that is, the latter the baby is introduced to the breast -- the lower the chances it would learn it at all 22:58:24 mle: tentacles and nipples. Now we're talking! What next, Shoggoth sex? 22:58:44 -!- TDT [n=dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:58:44 web browsers? 22:59:04 hefner, I surrender, you win in the horror category. 23:00:25 daedra [n=simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has joined #lisp 23:01:00 What does (array-upgraded-element-type '(unsigned-byte 32)) return on 32 bit clisp? 23:01:14 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f052125034.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:01:24 Fare: I don't understand why it would be helpful for XCVB to use a prototype-based system. Are you just in a situation where classes are silly and obnoxious? 23:01:38 plage [n=user@118.68.196.12] has joined #lisp 23:01:45 Good morning! 23:02:00 pkhuong: (UNSIGNED-BYTE 32) 23:02:04 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:02:23 sykopomp|work, your question is structured weirdly 23:02:44 -!- nicdev [n=user@st401-104.subnet-246.amherst.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:02:44 plage: prqx was looking for you 23:02:55 deepfire: Is not sure how to structure it better. Is sorry eengleesh no gud. 23:03:44 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:03:50 fe[nl]ix: Ah, yes, thanks. 23:03:58 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-71-139.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:04:31 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:06:03 -!- jahmarley [n=jahmarle@88.238.40.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:07:54 sykopomp, I want to have a nice system to extend XCVB with new kinds of files and behaviours. 23:08:21 sykopomp, currently, extending XCVB implies creating a bunch of classes and methods, which is unsatisfactory. 23:08:41 Fare: what kinds of methods need to be written in order to extend it? 23:08:51 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:09:42 or rather, what does extending look like? This is something that prototypes may or may not help with :\ 23:09:49 Fare, interesting, is it easy to put in words why is it unsatisfactory? 23:10:15 let's see. Methods to normalize an expression, methods to generate a graph of files, methods to generate abstract lisp commands, methods to actually produce lisp forms, methods to generate file names, etc. 23:10:19 change 500 places to add one thing kind of bad 23:10:23 Fare: I sent you the note about SEBS. The build description syntax looks a bit like Google's internal build system, but wedged into Python. 23:10:36 hefner: cool. 23:10:42 Guest837`, thanks! (btw, couldn't you adopt a /nick ?) 23:10:55 I'm too lazy to figure that out. 23:11:01 -!- Guest837` is now known as reb 23:11:06 ok, how's that. 23:11:10 hefner: sadly, (unsigned-byte 64) ugprades to T. 23:11:14 adopt a starving nick! only 10 bytes a day! 23:12:07 Anyway, SEBS has some feature to add support for additional programming languages. 23:12:22 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:43 deepfire, it's unsatisfactory because I currently have to add a disparate set of things all over the place, it's painful to check that I've covered all cases, each different variant of a pattern requires a new class and/or a new sexp representation (with its own methods), the inheritance is tricky, etc. 23:13:08 reb: thanks. In this genre, OMake also looks very nice. 23:13:08 Fare: it sounds like the very act of extending is pretty involved. I'm not sure if there's any magic that would save you here. Delegation would allow you to share data between objects, but if you want behavior that isn't already written somewhere, you'll -have- to write that code (duh) 23:13:33 The interesting thing from my perspective is that the build description language is at the right "level". I think higher level than OMake. 23:14:15 one thing about Lisp though is that since it's extensible, you have to do things in the lisp image before you compile, and so must distinct models for computation from a lisp image vs computation you spawn as isolated subprocesses. 23:14:32 especially if you want to fork lisp images to avoid reloading from scratch everytime. 23:14:55 sykopomp, yes, I understand that some of the issues are intrinsic. 23:15:00 if you want a more flexible way of mixing and matching, though, a prototype-based system -might- make it easier to experiment. There's also a feature in the works for Sheeple to allow multiple specializers per position for a single method, which means you can share methods even for things of different types. 23:15:04 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:15:06 I'm just dabbling with ways of having a nice solution. 23:15:28 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:15:43 so in that respect, it might be more convenient. Being able to manipulate the list of parents may help as well, but really the biggest win is in runtime flexibility. 23:15:58 -!- milanj [n=milan@109.93.23.248] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:17:00 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-74-135.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Valete!"] 23:21:23 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:34 sykopomp|work: what advantage does the multiple specialiser thing have over two methods that both call the same outside method/function? 23:21:47 Fare, something suggests me that type/instance-based dispatch is too crude for your problem.. 23:22:00 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:22:28 -!- davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:22:53 Fare, that is, that you need to build your own dispatch mechanism targeted specifically at the problem domain. 23:23:33 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:24:25 Basically shift some typing properties into slots and do your own thing. 23:25:07 deepfire, I've been doing a mix of that and CLOS, so far. 23:26:08 benny [n=benny@i577A8EF3.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:26:31 i.e. I'm having an dispatch based on pattern matching a keyword that starts a list, combines with CLOS dispatch on an "environment" variable. 23:26:36 drewc: afaict right now, I'm not sure if it would add anything. Multiple specializers was suggested and I thought it was worth a shot. It's still on drawing board and we haven't even implemented it yet. 23:28:18 what do you mean by "multiple specializers" ? 23:28:41 -!- daedra [n=simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has left #lisp 23:28:41 (defmethod synergize ((a class-a class-b class-c)) (frob-them-all-the-same a)) 23:28:59 there's a difference 23:29:06 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Client Quit] 23:29:26 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:29:31 in CLOS, a method is applicable to some classes 23:29:52 in Sheeple (and other Slate-like dispatch systems), objects play roles in methods 23:30:25 this would just add syntactic support for something which the PMD paradigm already supports. 23:32:08 so if the paradigm supports it, how do you currently do it? 23:32:49 the only (exported) way to get multiple objects with the same role is using CLONE 23:32:57 sykopomp|work: do you have something along the lines factor-style classes? (unions, intersections, predicate classes, mixins) 23:33:04 does that mean, "this methods applies to the intersection (union?) of classes -a -b -c ?" 23:33:11 oh, maybe that doesn't make any sense 23:33:23 Fare, no, it means that A, B, and C each play the same role in this method. 23:34:21 hefner: I'm not sure what all those different classes do. 23:34:51 mixins, yes, since the system has multiple inheritance 23:35:00 hefner, the first three sound more like type specifiers than classes 23:35:05 and it has the added benefit that it's very easy to add mixins and sort the hierarchy. 23:35:15 Adlai: I believe factor calls its regular classes 'tuples' 23:35:17 26/quit 23:35:22 -!- unicode_ [n=user@95.214.18.174] has quit ["leaving"] 23:35:34 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.157.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:35:45 Adlai: yeah, well, I'm referring to Factor's terminology. "Conceptually, a class is a set of objects whose members can be identified with a predicate, and on which generic words can specialize methods." 23:36:46 interesting -- it sounds a bit like Pascal Costanza's Filtered Dispatch. No, we don't have that (yet) 23:36:47 Adlai, I'm confused about what it means that they should play the same role. 23:37:41 Fare, a role is a specific position in the required args of a method 23:38:21 so here, the method is called with arguments :class-a a :class-b a :class-c a ? 23:38:31 Fare: instead of replies (methods) having knowledge of which objects it dispatches on, objects have 'roles' which represent that position in the dispatch process. 23:38:52 Fare, which method? the one from sykopomp|work's example? 23:38:53 dispatch happens by searching for roles that match the same method, and sorting them according to their precedence. 23:39:12 that is a one-argument method 23:39:28 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-74-135.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:40:00 Fare: the example I gave was what multiple specializers would look like in CLOS. In sheeple, it would be (defreply foo ((obj *o1* *o2* *o3*)) (frob obj)), where #'foo could be called on either *o1*, *o2*, or *o3* and still dispatch the same code. 23:40:03 this concept goes beyond the syntax that we're considering adding. 23:42:39 ok, so you factor dispatch in two steps, determining roles, and how to reply to roles, and in this spec, you tell the method how to reply to a union type of many roles? 23:43:01 at no point is there a "union of roles" 23:43:50 instead, when the objects being dispatched upon have a suitable role for the generic function being called, the method is added to the applicable methods list 23:44:56 once applicable methods have been found, an "effective method" is created, and we're in familiar CLOSlike territory again 23:46:47 Adlai, that explains how the dispatch is computed, but phylosophically, how is this different from dispatching on a type union? 23:46:50 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 23:47:28 (Where type is (eql *ox*), obviously) 23:48:02 Forgive me my obtuseness, my head hurts.. 23:48:03 deepfire, because we never store a type union anywhere, and the set of objects which are part of this "union" can be grown or shrunk without the method, genfun, or other objects in the "union" knowing. 23:48:15 -!- bipt [i=bpt@cpe-075-182-092-215.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:49:28 ViciousB [i=gambino@c-76-28-211-132.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:53 Fare: think of it this way: Objects have roles inside them. The roles have a pointer to a reply (a method in sheeplespeak), and a position that object is in in the lambda-list for dispatch. When you try to call a message (genfun), each relevant object that you call it on (and its precedence list) is searched for roles that point to replies for that message, and for the position where the object was found in. 23:49:54 jordyd [n=jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:32 and then that is sorted with secret magic sauce in the background to determine the effective reply function, which is the actual code run on the objects. 23:50:59 so think method dispatch, but it's the objects that hold all the knowledge of what is supposed to actually dispatch. 23:51:37 you don't even need the messages themselves at all for this system to work (unlike generic functions, which are the ones that handle figuring out how dispatch will happen) 23:52:10 Ginei_Morioka [n=irssi_lo@78.114.157.240] has joined #lisp 23:52:59 This sounds like an implementation detail to me. 23:53:14 it sounds like it, but it's not. 23:53:35 As if you just cache information required to compute dispatch in the objects. 23:53:45 for example, this means that you are free to garbage-collect objects. Remember you don't have classes to dispatch on. 23:53:55 The real question is -- can you explain it in a simpler way? 23:54:15 deepfire: you'd need to read the Slate papers if you want a better argument in favor of PMD (or a better explanation of the issues) 23:54:33 -!- Claviceps [i=gambino@c-76-28-211-132.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:54:38 the other part where this comes into play is that it makes copying objects simpler. 23:54:57 *deepfire* honestly hoped you would've internalised the argument by now :-) 23:55:01 associating roles with specific methods (replies, whatever) seems like a missed opportunity 23:55:36 so cloning is basically just an act where you create a new object, then copy the original's parents, properties, and roles. 23:55:38 hefner: how so? 23:56:15 does that mean that the order of arguments does not matter, or do you tag each role with a position, too? 23:56:20 you can still implement things like filtered dispatch on top of this. That can be changed at a different level. 23:56:28 Fare: it means that you use the positions. 23:56:29 Fare, each role is a combination of a method and a position 23:56:41 ok 23:56:43 (right now, they're actually just (cons method position)) 23:56:48 in the case of Sheeple, it's left-weighted, too. 23:57:04 hefner, roles -are- associated with specific methods 23:57:14 but roles are not associated with objects. 23:57:23 well, they don't refer to objects. 23:57:45 Adlai: that's what I said 23:57:45 objects refer to roles, which refer to positions in a reply's dispatch. 23:57:52 Damn I wish I could think right now. 23:58:24 ok, and a reply must correspond to a list of roles, with one role per position. 23:58:25 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:58:42 deepfire: same here. I'd have gone to sleep two hours ago, but I keep thinking of things I can do that don't require any brainpower (grepping the dictionary for project names, screwing with github) 23:59:03 Fare: Correct, I think. 23:59:04 deepfire, this is confusing because Sheeple messages are pretty similar to CLOS genfuns in all regards -but- this, and here they're quite different. 23:59:28 hefner, I'm not sure what you mean by "[it's] a missed opportunity"? 23:59:42 Adlai: yeah, I'm trying to figure that out myself 23:59:43 Adlai: it's made even trickier because Sheeple makes such a big effort to look and feel like CLOS (including here)