00:04:26 sldb-print-condition is defined in the keymap but not implemented 00:05:06 in sldb, what's the easiest way to evaluate code that can reference the condition? 00:08:15 jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 00:16:02 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:23 balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 00:17:54 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 00:18:16 milanj [n=milan@109.93.8.68] has joined #lisp 00:18:25 kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.41.60] has joined #lisp 00:18:48 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:27 i sometimes accidentally write #'lisp while trying to enter the channel, that is not good :) 00:19:30 is there a less colon'ey way to write (sb-bsd-sockets::errno e) ? 00:23:16 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-64-118-11.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:55 Whoa! Lamkins is accusing lispmeister of stiffing him on his royalties. 00:24:02 On the front page of proggit. 00:24:06 *Xach* saw that and wondered what was going on 00:24:33 gigamonkey: thankyouverymuch for leaving PCL online. my hardcopy is in storage but it's great to have it for reference 00:24:36 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.6.63] has joined #lisp 00:25:07 lukego: No problem. Enjoy. 00:26:04 Though the ultra-correct behavior is to buy a new copy in each town you visit and then leave them in your hotel nightstand. Sort of like the Gideons. 00:26:20 The Margolins 00:26:25 ben_m [n=ben@chello084113058207.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 00:28:18 *gigamonkey* is sitting around waiting for *his* late royalty check. Hoping it's not a Lisp-publisher conspiracy. 00:28:36 -!- jmbr__ is now known as jmbr 00:30:10 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-61-42.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:30:17 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:31:04 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.196.35] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:31:28 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 00:31:38 lol 00:32:51 TDT [n=dthole@173-30-223-49.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 00:33:25 moogleno1ph [n=marco@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:02 -!- JonSmith [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 00:35:03 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 00:36:44 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.241.57] has joined #lisp 00:38:37 Xantoz [n=user@c-8cb7e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 00:41:43 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.131.46] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:44:47 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:45:29 -!- bytbox [n=scott@ogodei.mbhs.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 00:47:20 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:48:52 gigamonkey, I can't get it any regular book store in Sweden; only online. 00:49:15 madnificent [n=user@83.101.31.22] has joined #lisp 00:50:15 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-8850.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:53:50 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:53:52 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:54:34 (alas.) 00:55:27 tic: Hmmm. How about Coders at Work? 00:55:34 (If you've noticed.) 00:55:56 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.31.22] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:56:28 madnificent [n=user@83.101.31.22] has joined #lisp 00:56:30 gigamonkey, neither, IIRC. Then again, the book stores that would typically carry these sorts of books don't have very much beyond your average "Learn C# in 24h", plus some stray O'Reilly books. I only order books from [Swedish] online bookstores. 00:59:15 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32FA8F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:50 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:00:52 cools` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:02:13 gigamonkey: Coders at work is available for the Kindle, I was surprised to see. 01:02:44 -!- gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:03:19 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-24-17-71-15.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:04:13 Woah, and at 50% of the paperback price. Nice. 01:04:54 yoonkn [n=yoonkn@112.169.40.70] has joined #lisp 01:04:56 but not available for /my/ ereader. :-| 01:05:23 I bought the wife a Kindle for Christmas. But now I want one too. 01:05:47 Nope, nothing at the Reader Store. 01:05:59 -!- milanj [n=milan@109.93.8.68] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:06:58 CoW is probably a good purchase for me to test DRM stripping with. If it works, I might actually start buying Kindle books. 01:07:43 If it doesn't work, at least some of my money went to gigamonkey, and I can continue cursing Amazon. 01:07:49 wanna strip the book and send me a copy of it? I can tweet the physical book in my bookshelf. :-) 01:08:20 *tic* prefers reading on his sony reader nowadays. 01:08:33 Ironic how the hunchentoot website is down ... 01:08:35 cools`` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:08:37 tic: What, scanning the pages isn't good enough for you? ;) 01:08:41 sellout, ugh 01:09:14 maybe if you get me one of them scanners google uses. 01:09:50 -!- cools`` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:11:51 -!- PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 01:12:09 *Zzzz* 01:13:11 PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:15:11 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 01:17:48 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:18:00 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-54-249.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 01:20:16 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:20:36 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:20:42 borism [n=boris@213-35-234-124-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 01:20:54 sellout: can't you load your own books onto the Kindle? 01:21:19 Adamant: Yeah  at least txt, mobi and PDF. I don't know about other formats. 01:21:50 I should look into getting some PDF reader on my iPhone ... 01:22:03 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:04 sellout: so buy a legal copy then ditch it and use the warez'ed pdf or mobi 01:22:20 that's more or less how I game when DRM ticks me off 01:22:58 the author got paid, I got my content how I want it, any moral/ethical/legal duty is discharged in my book 01:23:07 Adamant: I haven't found much in the way of warezed ebooks that I'm actually interested in. 01:23:12 fair enough 01:23:20 Adamant: It's apparently cake to take off the DRM, though. 01:23:25 ah, good 01:23:45 Mostly I use the Kindle for reading papers in PDF, and mobis off Gutenberg. 01:24:04 sellout: avaxhome.ws 01:24:17 PragProg sell their books in unencumbered mobi. 01:25:16 -!- cools` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:26:22 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:27:21 xristos: Thanks. That might help me in my project of replacing things I currently have hardcopy of. 01:29:08 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-64-118-11.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:34:11 -!- kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.41.60] has left #lisp 01:37:22 Anybody know how to suppress the message "Fast loading ..." that Allegro prints when you (require 'asdf)? 01:38:04 Is there a list of reader macros somewhere? I'm using sbcl if it matters. 01:38:24 [16:42 01:38:27 gah! 01:38:45 ben_m: the hyperspec lists all the standard ones. 01:38:45 ben_m, yeah there is, in the Hyperspec. Trying to figure out where... 01:38:54 Aah, thanks. 01:39:19 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:39:50 ben_m, sbcl's manual probably lists any extra ones that they support 01:40:25 plage [n=user@113.161.70.106] has joined #lisp 01:40:29 Good morning! 01:40:37 ben_m, http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_d.htm http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_dh.htm 01:40:44 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:40:59 malsyned: Thanks! 01:41:01 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:42:14 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-172-111.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:46:03 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@140.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 01:46:17 I'm trying to get alisp to run, execute the code in a file, and then exit. I've succeeded, except that it prints out three lines of status before it gets into my code. Two of them are of the form "Installing XXX patch, version Y" and one is "Fast loading XXX". Anybody know how to suppress? 01:47:59 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:49:48 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:51:32 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:52:04 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:04 check allegro docs 01:52:21 xristos, I've been. 01:55:53 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:56:23 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 01:57:07 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-170-170.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:57:22 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:59:04 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:59:09 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:00:30 -!- plage [n=user@113.161.70.106] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:00:59 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Client Quit] 02:01:15 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 02:02:26 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@92.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:02:32 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-24-17-71-15.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:28 I've been using (loop ... always pred) all the ime and mourned over the lack of an (all pred list) function and now I discover EVERY :> 02:06:36 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 02:09:34 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:47 ben_m: it takes a while to learn everything in the hyperspec. 02:09:57 a long while! 02:10:01 eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 02:10:48 prxq: That information on the arc page is outdated, there is a hack that makes cons cells mutable again tha they're using which allows using recent plt versions. 02:11:14 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:11:32 -!- sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-172-111.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 02:12:27 prxq_ [n=mommer@f050228106.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 02:13:34 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-172-111.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:18:14 drewc: yeah :) 02:18:19 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:27:59 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:29:49 -!- prxq [n=mommer@g228074105.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:29:57 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-204.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:30:47 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:31:38 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 02:33:15 -!- konr [n=user@189.98.234.110] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:33:42 konr [n=user@189.98.234.110] has joined #lisp 02:36:05 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 02:36:35 Is there a function to change substrings of a string? I could use a regexp, but that would probably be overkill. 02:36:51 Something like (string-replace "foo" "bar" "foobar") ; => "barbar" 02:36:55 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-67-164-97-141.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:40:38 ben_m: (replace "foobar" "bar") 02:40:54 uhm 02:41:11 Ok, that works in this example : 02:41:13 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:41:26 Not what I meant though. 02:41:57 (cl-ppcre:regex-replace "s" "this is lisp" "th") ; "thith ith lithp" 02:42:00 if you want to chagne a substring with a string with different length, then you have to use append or with-output-to-string 02:42:03 I'm just using that now. 02:42:46 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-172-111.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:44:08 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.31.22] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:45:12 madnificent [n=user@83.101.31.22] has joined #lisp 02:45:33 ldb needs a disassembler 02:48:38 -!- Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has left #lisp 02:51:49 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@118.173.102.90.adsl.dynamic.totbb.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:52:26 `m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.31.22] has joined #lisp 03:00:42 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 03:00:44 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 03:02:36 topo [n=topo@190.232.44.65] has joined #lisp 03:02:43 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-yuwapynjompgscbp] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:02:49 -!- davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:02:51 :P 03:02:53 -!- topo is now known as lisperati_boy 03:05:44 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:07:55 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:07:57 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.31.22] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:08:51 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-80.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:12:30 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:12:59 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-29-175.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:19:10 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439888.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 03:22:56 -!- johnzorn [n=jz@206-248-152-106.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:26:24 wakeup^ [n=wakeup@koln-5d8145a8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:31 heh wordpress makes me cry 03:26:50 using clsql to write directly to it...their schema in some ways makes me shake my head wondering why. 03:27:35 Was probably a good idea at the time. 03:28:00 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:28:41 i can only think of some of their decisions as a way for increasing speed - for example, they have a comment_count field, yet are using something like polymorphic associations on the posts table, where the post_type is the association. 03:29:17 In other words, they can derive the count through a group by - for efficiency I can see why they did the comment_count 03:29:23 but it still makes me sad 03:33:25 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:38:16 -!- konr [n=user@189.98.234.110] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:39:00 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:39:04 -!- `m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.31.22] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:42:05 kwinz3 [i=kwinz@213162073224.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 03:43:39 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d819442.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:45:47 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 03:45:52 ker2x_ [n=chatzill@AToulouse-753-1-8-209.w90-38.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:46:15 Friendly greetings ! \o/ 03:48:13 i'm looking for an introduction to lisp, i don't understand the meaning of differents implementation, maybe some kind of comparaison table to understand why there is so many "lisp" ? 03:48:34 ysph [n=user@adsl-157-159-168.mgm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:27 -!- ben_m is now known as bruenig 03:49:32 -!- bruenig is now known as ben_m 03:53:17 jahmarley [n=jahmarle@88.238.41.60] has joined #lisp 03:55:12 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 03:55:17 ker2x_: I wouldn't worry about a comparison table if you're just looking for an introduction to lisp. I'm assuming that you mean Common Lisp by your comment, which really once you learn one it's not that much different to look at the others. 03:55:31 minion tell ker2x_ about pcl 03:55:50 give me a break...first time i wanted to use minion and i get it wrong, I'll do it the manual way, haha 03:55:59 :) 03:56:18 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ <-- fairly good book for an introduction to CL. 03:56:27 from what i see from the intro on mcclim manual and other sources by now, mcclim doesn't have to rely on any widget set or theme or whatever of the underlying backend and window manager, so for what exactly it uses the backend? 03:56:31 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:56:54 TDT: thank you :) 03:57:07 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:57:14 the only lisp-y langage i know is clojure 03:57:22 and i don't know so much about it :) 03:57:24 only for mouse click handling etc. ? 03:57:26 jahmarley: To my understanding, it's direct X calls, not using GTK or QT which is a layer above the X calls. 03:58:15 ker2x_: Really the concept of how stuff like Cl works is the hard hump to get over, but once you get that moving on to scheme, or closure isn't as much of an issue..nor is understanding more functional programming languages such as F# and haskell. 03:58:17 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:52 i know some haskell, erlang, clojure, scala 03:58:57 *ker2x_* like functionnal programming 03:59:30 Well then CL will be a fair bit less of a jump than it was for me then. I came from PHP/Ruby/Java/C 03:59:38 CL was a bit painful at first 03:59:45 :) 04:00:21 i started functionnal with Erlang, which is (imho) the nicest FP langage ever 04:00:23 balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-249.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:48 I have a coworker who's into erlang. 04:00:55 johnzorn [n=jz@206-248-152-106.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 04:01:14 i'm going to read the Practical Common Lisp, and make some coffee :) 04:02:17 TDT: not using gtk or qt? so it just uses gtk backend for more modern look if we would like it? except that it purely relies on x, right? 04:03:08 ker2x_: CL is less functional by nature than something like Scheme. It will let you code imperatively, functionally or in an OO style as you like. However, it has more mature compilers, tools and libraries than Scheme in my opinion and there are functional programming libs for CL. 04:03:30 CL is exactly as functional by nature as scheme. 04:03:32 jahmarley: To my understanding all the widgets still rely on base X calls, and mcclim calls the base X calls similar to gtk - so it's a different widget library from my understanding. I could be wrong about this, though. 04:03:35 They are both procedural languages. 04:03:57 *froydnj* sees run-program hanging in sb-thread builds and goes back to single-thread builds 04:05:31 Zhivago: Yes, thanks for that note. "by nature" was a poor choice of words. 04:05:36 tdt: Well, it depends on what you mean by 'widget'. 04:05:53 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.6.63] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:05:54 redline: I'd base your argument around tail recursion support. 04:06:24 *ker2x_* is back from the coffee machine 04:06:27 Zhivago: I was thinking of the number of mutation-based constructs/primitives in the standard. *shrug* They're both brilliantly malleable languages. 04:06:52 A very bad metric. :) 04:07:06 They have about the same number in proportion to the number of supported types. 04:07:27 set-cdr! set-car! set-ref! set! ... 04:07:50 Zhivago: Good answer. Never thought about it in proportion to types! 04:07:53 *redline6561* ponders 04:08:26 i'm currently playing with x86 assembler. With Common Lisp i'm looking for something that is deadly fast. i heard that lisp could be deadly fast :) 04:08:53 one last thing, i read that mcclim used opengl backend at first, is it totally abandoned, or can we still use opengl backend (and this makes it portable, i like portable :) ) 04:08:59 Death can come quite slowly for many. 04:09:18 lol Zhivago 04:09:26 jahmarley: I think that it means that you might have to do a bit of work and shouldn't bother people about it. 04:09:47 But he's right...I wouldn't exactly call Lisp super fast, or slow...it can be slow, or it can be fast, depending on what you're doing and who you're comparing it to. 04:10:09 For speed with respect to free implementations you probably want sbcl. 04:10:49 right now... i do that kind of stuff http://ker.endofinternet.net/img/ 04:10:55 math, math, math and math 04:11:11 If speed is your top priority then lisp might not be your first choice. 04:11:30 How do I catch signals with lisp? 04:11:45 In an implementation defined manner. 04:11:52 Unless you mean lisp signals. 04:12:21 No, signals as in SIGINT etc. 04:12:23 my first choice is x64 and SSE3 instructions. i'm not expecting lisp to be faster than that :) 04:12:32 sbcl would be the implementation 04:12:32 ben: Then it's time to read your implementation documentation. 04:12:36 I shall :) 04:12:43 but not as slow as a JVM langage :) 04:13:05 ker2x_: I'd really weigh out the cost in terms of development speed to the speed you need and the application area you need it in. CL can be a nice balance for that. 04:13:08 JVMs can be pretty fast with a bit of lead time. 04:13:29 Zhivago: for big application 04:14:42 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:15:09 Zhivago: i thought i was just asking, excuse me for not knowing that they are both same, since i don't have a linux already installed to my machine, and i don't have the opportunity to install it right now and i am trying to learn clim right now i thought asking if there is a way to run it in windows easily would be a good idea 04:15:32 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-228-039.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:39 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:16:44 greetings 04:17:27 alright time for bed, it's getting late. good night all 04:17:28 Zhivago: but you are right, in fact i should write everything from scratch instead of asking if there is already one, right? 04:17:50 -!- TDT [n=dthole@173-30-223-49.client.mchsi.com] has quit [] 04:17:51 jahmarley: What are you babbling about? 04:19:19 Zhivago: anyway 04:20:52 any idea if opengl backend of mcclim is still available and working? 04:21:06 Last I looked the code is still there. 04:21:19 As for working ... you might try it. 04:22:01 Zhivago: thanks 04:24:50 ker2x_: you could also do SSE in CL, or use generate asm only in a few critical places. 04:25:05 wooo \o/ 04:25:32 very good news :) 04:26:27 well, according to the online book i'm reading. It's more or less the same thing as clojure 04:27:11 I doubt that. 04:27:36 well, to be exact : Clojure look like lisp :) 04:28:25 ker2x_ if you want SSE vector maths, checkout sb-cga 04:28:50 it requires SBCL though, but the is a port to other implementations in the works 04:28:58 the is/there is 04:29:02 http://github.com/nikodemus/sb-cga ? 04:29:13 that's it, 04:29:20 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-64-118-11.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:28 thx :) 04:29:38 you could also checkout 3b's version 04:29:55 it has CCL port, and a few other things 04:30:13 http://github.com/3b/sb-cga 04:30:44 added to my watch list :) 04:31:27 -!- lpolzer__ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-254-070.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:34:31 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:48 -!- potatishandlarn [i=potatish@c-f98572d5.07-57-73746f42.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 04:45:25 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:48:39 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-pwbsyxofbnyejcns] has joined #lisp 04:51:18 what is Allegro common lisp ? a commercial implementation ? 04:52:47 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:53:41 ker2x_: yes 04:53:48 thank you :) 04:55:17 ker2x_: you can check out the personal express edition, it has a few limitations but not really limiting the newbies :) 04:55:56 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 04:58:20 ok :) 04:59:41 konr [n=user@189.98.234.110] has joined #lisp 05:01:36 What's the deal with XCVB? Has it been getting any traction as an alternative to asdf? 05:01:39 ker2x_: by the way, clojure is a lisp dialect, so yes, it might look similar to common lisp code, but it is not a common lisp implementation, it is a different programming language. that's why it is not the same thing as clojure 05:01:42 I just stumbled on it today. 05:01:49 i'll try, i'm a big fan of graph database :) 05:02:01 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 05:02:01 And they have allegrograph 05:04:29 -!- Yuuhi`` [i=benni@p5483CC7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:04:35 Yuuhi`` [i=benni@p5483CC7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:15 ker2x_: if you use pure common lisp in allegro, you won't have any problems using the same code on some other implementation, the thing is, except that, most of your code won't be portable i guess, so if you don't think of buying it later for commercial use and thinking on switching to a free implementation later, starting directly from a free implementation might be also a good choice. 05:13:00 understood :) 05:20:19 -!- ysph [n=user@adsl-157-159-168.mgm.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:29:37 huh ... $599 05:30:04 sadiquea1 [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 05:30:08 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:30:34 ker2x_: what is $599? 05:30:42 Allegro lisp :) 05:31:27 -!- JohnnyL [i=excellen@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 05:35:26 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 05:35:38 ker2x_: it's the "starting" price :) 05:35:54 =^_^= 05:35:55 Ah. 05:38:07 ker2x_: that was what i meant by " if you don't think of buying it later for commercial use" :p 05:38:42 -!- mle [n=emily@kuu.accela.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:38:45 yes but i tought about something like $100 :) 05:39:23 -!- PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 05:39:29 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-95.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 05:40:28 ker2x_: no, in fact 599 is the academic professional licence price, i guess it doesn't include commercial distribution right, too. 05:40:29 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 05:41:04 ok, let's forget about this 05:44:05 -!- kwinz3 [i=kwinz@213162073224.public.telering.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:45:57 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TOPIO_3.0.jpg nice :) 05:48:16 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 05:49:05 http://www.cons.org/cmucl/ look interesting :) 05:49:25 ker2x_: but as i said before, it really is a 'must see' environment even if you don't plan to buy it and the express edition can be used for learning purposes if anyway, but if you want to stick with a free implementation, choices like sbcl and clozure cl are very nice, if you are on linux, i guess sbcl is probably the best choice, if you are on windows, the experimental win port of sbcl is pretty good but some serious things like thread support is still m 05:49:58 ok :) 05:50:05 ker2x_: sbcl is a fork of cmucl. 05:50:12 ha cool :) 05:50:24 plage [n=user@113.161.70.106] has joined #lisp 05:50:25 i'm not in a hurry to learn lisp 05:50:45 ker2x_: Why not? 05:51:17 lack of time is probably the best reason :) 05:51:20 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-64-118-11.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:51:40 and i haven't finished some asm code 05:52:00 ker2x_: common lisp is a result of 50 years of development, so you should hurry if you want to learn it completely before you die :D 05:52:11 hehehe 05:52:37 hooo pgplot-cl ! 05:52:41 *ker2x_* like pgplot 05:53:54 jahmarley: when the CLX backend is used, McCLIM only uses the windowing and drawing facilities of X11. 05:54:31 ker2x_: The sooner you learn lisp, the sooner you will save time by becoming more productive. 05:55:00 being a sysadmin, and not a coder, i don't care about my coding productivity :) 05:55:07 and i need more coffee... brb 05:55:09 PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:58:32 and with all thoses php coder that surround me at work, there is absolutly no way that lisp will ever be used at work :( 05:58:35 sadly 05:59:07 otherwise, i may try to implement a proxy cache in lisp :) 05:59:23 splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-paryxolfgwymrqth] has joined #lisp 05:59:26 morning 05:59:43 plage: oh, thanks for that, so if the level of abstraction layers go that deep, it shouldn't be hard to extent it to use opengl backend for cross-platform usage. 05:59:58 ysph [n=user@adsl-157-159-168.mgm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 06:02:54 i know that McCLIM is first used opengl backend years ago, but afaik the library it used back then is pretty inferior to and different from cl-opengl. so it will be a bit annoying to work on that code, anyway, i'll try to make it work on cl-opengl some time. 06:03:53 any biding to OpenCL or Cuda in Lisp ? 06:04:09 ker2x_: cl-opengl 06:04:19 opengl is not opencl 06:04:48 ker2x_: hmm, sorry, i haven't slept for 20 hours now :) 06:04:53 :D 06:07:10 plage: i've seen some posts about working McCLIM on clisp in windows, i found it strange to use clisp for this purpose since probably sbcl or cmucl is usually best fit for McCLIM, can you think of any reason for clisp choice? it is a post from 2006, so i thought maybe there wasn't even a sbcl port to win back then. 06:08:02 jahmarley: (i forgot to mention xming. they used clx on xming as backend) 06:08:13 jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 06:08:30 i guess i really should sleep btw :) 06:08:35 jahmarley: that's probably right. I've used sbcl+Xming+CLIM on Windows before. 06:11:16 splittist: one last question, does mcclim work on ccl? i couldn't find where they mention the implementations it should work in mcclim site 06:12:25 jahmarley: it certainly should. I'm almost sure I was using McClim on OpenMCL (which is what ccl used to be called). 06:13:51 splittist: oh, thanks 06:13:57 so i'll try ccl+clx+xming+winxp, good luck to me :D 06:18:51 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 06:20:56 -!- jahmarley [n=jahmarle@88.238.41.60] has left #lisp 06:29:20 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@140.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:31:46 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-6-64.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:34:07 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:34:56 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-20-98.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:37:24 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213162066164.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 06:38:24 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:40:52 time to go. thx for your help :) 06:41:13 -!- ker2x_ [n=chatzill@AToulouse-753-1-8-209.w90-38.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]"] 06:43:20 -!- ysph [n=user@adsl-157-159-168.mgm.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:48:52 -!- ben_m [n=ben@chello084113058207.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["meh, pissed"] 06:50:39 dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-123-121.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:06 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 06:53:06 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-145-54.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:54:56 shortsightedsid [i=c0a314e8@gateway/web/freenode/x-wpdcbktslrzmrdcm] has joined #lisp 07:04:29 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 07:04:30 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 07:05:41 jahmarley [n=jahmarle@88.238.41.60] has joined #lisp 07:14:30 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:23:17 ysph [n=user@adsl-157-159-168.mgm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:36 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213162066164.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:28:52 -!- jahmarley [n=jahmarle@88.238.41.60] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:32:17 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 07:39:51 nicdev [n=user@dorm-207.subnet-193.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 07:40:13 -!- nicdev [n=user@dorm-207.subnet-193.amherst.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:42:08 -!- jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:42:10 -!- cddr [n=user@5ac75ee9.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:50:17 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:50:19 I'm considering using lisp as an alternative to windows batch file (.bat). Which lisp should I try? Criteria: 07:50:23 jahmarley [n=jahmarle@88.238.38.177] has joined #lisp 07:50:36 1. I need a stable standalone excutable file as a result 07:50:45 can anybody help me find the current source of clx 07:50:52 2. I prefer to use emacs+slime. 07:51:02 it is not in common-lisp.net and the cliki links are dead 07:52:00 google doesn't help since it insist on linking to cliki 07:52:50 jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 07:55:10 jahmarley: http://www.cliki.net/CLX 07:55:55 the link i privately send you was from ^ 07:57:03 xenosoz2: so i'm probably having problems with my isp, because the links were dead in my browser half an hour ago 07:57:29 :) 07:58:42 hi i have one question 07:59:45 fusss_ [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:59:46 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:59:47 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 08:01:10 lisperati_boy: and you wanna keep it a secret? 08:01:32 no, im thinking about how to ask 08:02:06 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-127-153.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:27 ok here it go: 08:02:34 I made a celullar automata with common lisp made with a 3d array, 08:02:42 if my 3d matrix is very big , say 50 cubes per dimension , that is 50 * 50 * 50 = 125 000 08:02:50 So it draw 125 000 cubes in each frame , it is very slow , which techniques does exist to draw a thounthands of cubes in a fast way? 08:03:56 -!- ysph [n=user@adsl-157-159-168.mgm.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:04:15 this is the automata, i want to navigate inside the structure generated by the automata, but it is very slow, it doesnt look smooth with big matrix 08:04:20 http://www.moco.dreamhosters.com/imagenes/automata_estructura_array.png 08:04:21 any idea? 08:07:53 -!- PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 08:09:37 lisperati: 'occlusion'. 08:10:20 whats that? 08:10:37 Something for you to do a little research on. 08:10:44 cool thanks 08:10:55 is it something specific of common lisp or is something general? 08:11:09 Graphics. 08:11:20 ok thanks 08:14:27 Kolyan [n=nartamon@93-80-210-34.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:14:53 it is an algorithm for not processing the surfaces which won't be seen anyway, but what do you use to shade the automata? 08:16:36 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:27 because i think libs like opengl already handles that stuff, but i may be wrong 08:19:58 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-24ed70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:21:19 Opengl may handle it for the stuff that you send it, but that still involves sending it. 08:21:40 If you have a large voxel space then the cost of sending it to opengl may be the prohibitive factor. 08:22:47 glx has a hack to communicate directly with hardware 08:22:49 And even 100x100x100 is a million objects. 08:22:49 in C, at least 08:23:50 Zhivago: hmm, i see your point. 08:24:56 balooga1 [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-249.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:25:50 Xantoz- [n=Brucio-8@c-8cb7e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:26:12 -!- plage [n=user@113.161.70.106] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:27:15 -!- timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:28:46 plage [n=user@113.161.70.106] has joined #lisp 08:29:09 Zhivago: but there is something i don't get, how is it possible for the algorithm to be able to draw exactly the region which will be seen in the projection? it seems to me like this should cause the alghorithm to duplicate most of the processes that will be done by graphics library afterwards. 08:29:58 Well, if you start with a suitable spatial decomposition ... 08:30:03 ummm 08:30:43 Also you don't need to draw it -- you just need to conservatively figure out what can't be drawn. 08:30:57 jahmarley what do you mean to shade the automata? 08:31:15 jahmarley what do you mean with "shade" the automata? 08:31:37 Joreji [n=thomas@47-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:32:33 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:32:43 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:32:45 djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 08:32:59 lisperati_boy: sorry for the terminology, i mean how did you draw the thing :) 08:33:08 with openfl 08:33:11 opengl 08:33:59 here is the code if you are interested 08:33:59 http://www.moco.dreamhosters.com/la_bestia/?p=14 08:34:43 im using dotimes to make the translation of each cube with translate 08:38:05 lisperati_boy: yes, that's why i was asking, i said i guess opengl probably already does the occlusion, but Zhivago pointed out that even if opengl does so, this doesn't change the fact that you still should use the algorithm to minimize the data you send to opengl 08:38:23 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:38:29 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:38:43 ok im gonna invesigate 08:38:44 thanks 08:40:31 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-249.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:42:46 lisperati_boy: btw, the clos approach that you can see in cl-opengl examples may be better for the cl-opengl stuff 08:43:08 in which ways? 08:43:31 im using structures instead of objects for each cell, would be better in terms of speed using clos? 08:46:41 fusss_ [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:46:45 lisperati_boy, no, structures are faster than CLOS. 08:46:55 hmm, no i didn't mean as a whole since i didn't check all the code, just that i realized you are using a straightforward way for the opengl part of your code. 08:47:08 on the other hand, some things can't be done with structs -- multiple inheritance is one example. 08:47:23 ummm 08:47:40 can you give an example of multiple inheritane please? 08:48:30 Axius [n=ade@92.82.85.50] has joined #lisp 08:48:53 lisperati_boy, the built-in condition class SIMPLE-ERROR is both an ERROR and a SIMPLE-CONDITION 08:49:05 lisperati_boy: if you check the examples in the cl-opengl libs, you can see that there is a more convenient way of writing opengl in lisp using clos, it also mostly saves you from using direct cffi callbacks 08:49:26 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.82.85.50] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:49:31 oh 08:49:45 ok ill check it out, where can i find those examples? 08:50:27 i think im not gonna need multiple inheritance in my automata 08:50:32 probably in the cl-opengl directory in your harddisk :) 08:51:07 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 08:52:51 also, afaik think structs are usually considered dangerous because of their accessor functions, but i may be wrong as usual :) 08:53:07 accessor functions? 08:54:33 some implementations compile struct accessors inline, making it tricky or impossible to redefine a struct at runtime (something which CLHS says has undefined consequences) 08:55:46 lisperati_boy, as for a multiple inheritance example/explanation: http://l1sp.org/pcl/defclass and scroll to Multiple Inheritance 08:57:07 ok thanks 08:57:08 and you can find a little "Caution" in the draft of Lavine's new book: http://lisp-book.org/contents/ch20.html 08:57:42 Lavine/Levine 08:58:14 the relevant part is close to the end of the page 08:59:54 ok ill read it 08:59:57 thanks 09:01:48 lisperati_boy, one nice thing about structs is that you can still use struct classes as method specializers, so you can use generic functions without using classes. 09:01:57 well, without using STANDARD-CLASS classes. 09:02:18 what are method specializers? 09:02:38 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 09:03:21 -!- fusss_ [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:04:52 -!- plage [n=user@113.161.70.106] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:05:24 In (defmethod describe-object ((obj my-struct) stream) (format stream "#$%#^@$#%" obj)), the first argument to describe-object is specialized on the class MY-STRUCT, and the second argument is unspecialized. 09:05:54 lisperati_boy, this is covered in an earlier chapter of PCL -- http://l1sp.org/pcl/defmethod 09:08:18 -!- prxq_ is now known as prxq 09:09:56 ummmm 09:10:12 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:10:46 lisperati_boy: ok, this would be a good time for you to start learning clos by reading the chapter Adlai links :) and maybe using clos in opengl part of your code would be a not-so-bad training if you don't want to stick with pcl practices. 09:12:53 ok 09:13:19 anyway, i'm gone :) 09:13:19 Kaonashi [n=tanami@CPE-58-165-233-187.sa.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:13:28 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Success] 09:14:14 -!- jahmarley [n=jahmarle@88.238.38.177] has left #lisp 09:14:57 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 09:15:29 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [] 09:18:17 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:18:24 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 09:19:58 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.108.233] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:20:05 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has joined #lisp 09:20:12 koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.108.233] has joined #lisp 09:23:51 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-95.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:24:34 c|mell [n=cmell@118.173.102.90.adsl.dynamic.totbb.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:04 ams [n=ams@gnu/inetutils/ams] has joined #lisp 09:25:19 are you all lisp gods? 09:26:06 no, we are Devo 09:26:30 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.166.247] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:27:20 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:46 good morning 09:30:08 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-95.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 09:32:46 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-8850.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 09:33:01 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 09:35:18 -!- borism [n=boris@213-35-234-124-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:35:50 borism [n=boris@213-35-233-3-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 09:39:42 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 09:44:29 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:47:05 plage [n=user@118.68.196.35] has joined #lisp 09:48:26 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:49:23 Good afternoon! 09:49:28 [and hello mvilleneuve] 09:53:58 -!- Xantoz- [n=Brucio-8@c-8cb7e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:56:30 I have one sbcl process working started from slime. It's owner is not-root. I want to make a system-wide asdf-install of one package, but I need root privileges. And I don't want kill current sbcl. How can do it? 09:57:52 who says you need to kill sbcl? 09:57:52 stassats, memo from tcr: thanks for slime-save-system 09:58:01 run a different sbcl as root? 09:58:27 stassats,    09:58:40 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 09:58:43 spoofy: i am indeed 09:59:30 -!- Kaonashi [n=tanami@CPE-58-165-233-187.sa.bigpond.net.au] has left #lisp 09:59:33 spoofy: you can run as many sbcls as you want 09:59:50 I can't. 10:00:11 It crashes to segfault. 10:02:05 s/seg/memory/ 10:02:26 blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 10:02:32 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:02:42 spoofy: how much memory do you have? 10:03:45 1G 10:03:56 total 10:04:09 Mem: 902564 847784 54780 0 30436 214880 10:04:10 BrettS [n=kirin@c-24-20-88-97.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:01 should be enough for many sbcls, what's exactly the error message? 10:05:02 galaxywatcher_ [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-48-64.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 10:07:11 http://pastebin.com/m7a070676 10:10:49 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:11:47 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 10:12:10 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:13:05 spoofy: is that a plain linux? not with some virtualizations or selinux 10:14:14 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-95.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:14:15 -!- galaxywatcher_ is now known as galaxywatcher 10:15:38 stassats, yes, without any virtualisation 10:15:40 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229160186.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:16:24 SBCL 1.0.34 10:21:11 guys, if I call wait-for-input on a set of sockets from multiple threads, is it likely that more than one thread will be awaken when data is available? 10:22:35 -!- prip [n=_prip@host76-195-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:24:02 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 10:24:27 jmbr [n=jmbr@107.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 10:27:29 Spaghett1ni [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:06 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:31:44 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 10:32:10 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 10:32:11 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:32:24 mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 10:32:35 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 10:38:30 prip [n=_prip@host58-82-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:40:51 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 10:42:01 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 10:45:48 Hmm... sbcl crashes only when I start it by root. 10:46:21 Even if no existing sbcl process running... 10:47:47 Removing ~root/.sbcl solves problem 10:48:21 Sorry for bother 10:52:30 What is a composite value? I'm reading through Successful Lisp and I haven't encountered the term before. Forgive me if this is a really easy question I'm new to programming and have only really worked with Python previously 10:52:51 -!- sadiquea1 is now known as sdqali 10:53:08 PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:54:02 Google was not very helpful either 10:54:10 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:54:20 BrettS: something composed of something, like cons cells, arrays, etc. 10:54:53 Ah ok, thank you 10:57:37 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:59:02 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:04:14 Usually a composite value is one made up of more than one part. 11:05:36 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:06:09 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 11:06:19 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f75438a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:01 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:09:36 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.196.35] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:15:31 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 11:22:03 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 11:24:48 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 11:28:13 Kaonashi [n=tanami@CPE-58-165-233-187.sa.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:31:33 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 11:34:20 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:34:45 SBCL people: where are runtime options processed? 11:35:02 namely, I really want SBCL to leave my commandline alone and let me handle --help myself 11:35:23 :save-runtime-options t 11:35:26 but I can't find the place in the source where the processing happens 11:35:38 Adlai: where, not how I tell it to save them 11:36:00 if you save runtime options, then you get to do all command-line arg processing 11:36:03 read the manual :) 11:36:25 hi 11:37:04 Adlai: oh, I didn't notice that bit, but I still can't find the place in the source where the processing happens 11:37:31 mathrick: sharpen your grep 11:37:43 it's pretty sharp I think 11:37:54 grep -nH -Rie "dynamic-space-size" * 11:38:00 oh, I know 11:38:08 it's probably not in /code 11:38:11 *code/ 11:38:17 src/runtime/runtime.c is the runtime part 11:38:49 yeah, I just realised it was pointing at the lisp portion of the source, and it probably happens in the C part 11:38:50 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 11:38:59 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-178-116.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:39:19 lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-178-116.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 11:40:24 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 11:40:54 -!- PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 11:43:57 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-pwbsyxofbnyejcns] has left #lisp 11:44:17 PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:45:36 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 11:46:49 -!- ams [n=ams@gnu/inetutils/ams] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:47:18 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wevmrjetsymgbqpf] has joined #lisp 11:47:25 -!- balooga1 [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-249.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 11:49:06 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:52:13 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:53:49 -!- splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-paryxolfgwymrqth] has quit ["Page closed"] 11:55:51 jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 11:56:23 -!- blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:59:23 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:04:48 I am the bone of my SICP. 12:04:57 Scheme is my body, and Lisp is my blood. 12:05:03 I have typed over 1024 parentheses. 12:05:11 Unknown to Java. 12:05:15 Nor known to C#. 12:05:22 Have withstood emacs to write many programs. 12:05:31 Yet these skills will never lead to a career. 12:05:39 So as I pray, Unlimited Satori Works! 12:05:44 try harder 12:06:09 ok 12:07:29 silly question: Is it possible to use lisp500 to bootstrap/build SBCL? I've noticed it was mentioned in one of SBCL's papers, but I don't think it was mentioned if it was actually capable of doing it. 12:07:56 ljames: it's not possible 12:08:02 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 12:08:24 oh well, I guess it's still far from real CL 12:08:34 -!- Kaonashi [n=tanami@CPE-58-165-233-187.sa.bigpond.net.au] has left #lisp 12:09:11 zoldar [n=zoldar@kyh66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:10:16 ljames, I don't think it's CL at all, just "lisp" 12:10:28 it looks clish 12:11:09 alien is giving me a straight compilation error when I try to (slightly) incompatibly redefine a struct type. can I override it? 12:11:23 samuels` [n=df@115.189.237.202] has joined #lisp 12:11:25 HEY 12:11:38 what is 'let' called? a 'special form' ? 12:11:39 Adlai: lisp500 plus init500 is a pretty good CL, actually 12:11:47 clhs let 12:11:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm 12:11:52 oh, interesting. 12:12:04 samuels`: look at the first sentence 12:12:09 special operator? 12:12:10 ok 12:12:19 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.108.233] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:12:23 stassats: does a let also close over the variables that it doesn't shadow? 12:12:57 samuels`, LET doesn't create a closure. 12:13:56 hm. SBCL is actually using CERROR, but C-c C-c in SLIME doesn't offer me the restart, so I need to use C-x C-e instead. 12:14:31 That sounds bogus, can you paste a test case? 12:14:42 Adlai: oh ok, so if in a let i access a variable defined outisde of the let (but not one of the variables it's setting equal to a value) and inside the let i set the variable equal to a new value, will that value persist outside the let? 12:14:43 samuels`: if you mean that they're visible inside let, then yes 12:15:08 Adlai: yeah sorry, im thinking of the let as a lambda :D 12:15:17 Adlai: since that how it was explained to me 12:15:32 samuels`: LET doesn't affect other bindings 12:15:43 stassats: I failed miserably at trying to write ,restart-lisp-and-restore-setup; does that kind of thing spur your interest so you'd like to see what I did so far to perhaps improve it? 12:16:53 stassats: hmm so the changes i make to the visible variables do not persist outide the let? 12:17:35 samuels`: no, you've got me wrong 12:17:42 tcr: yeah, send them along 12:18:13 stassats: could you set me straight? :D 12:18:14 samuels`: LET doesn't affect what you do with other bindings, yes, their values will persist 12:18:18 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:18:19 cool 12:18:20 thanks 12:18:23 tcr: try `C-c C-c' on each of these in turn: (define-alien-type nil (struct foo (x int))) 12:18:23 (define-alien-type nil (struct foo (x char))) 12:18:29 (let ((a 10)) (let ((b 30)) (setf a b)) a) => 30 12:19:21 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.181.11.146] has joined #lisp 12:21:51 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-127-153.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:22:11 besiria [n=user@83.212.84.106] has joined #lisp 12:22:57 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:23:43 tcr pasted "for stassats; restart-lisp-and-restore-setup" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93054 12:24:44 stassats: cool, cheers 12:25:57 lukego: Thanks. That's not Slime's fault. I wonder why that error is signalled during macro expansion 12:27:51 -!- sdqali [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:28:13 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-172-111.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:28:35 lukego: That's a good show case for something that came up last week, or two weeks ago. I'm not sure if you're still on sbcl-devel, but I'll post there. (sbcl-devel is on gmane, so you can easily subscribe.) 12:30:05 koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.108.233] has joined #lisp 12:32:02 hmm I miss the message, perhaps nikodemus sent it privately to me only? It seems like I deleted the private mail though since I thought sbcl-devel was on CC 12:32:54 ah no there it is! 12:33:04 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32F2DC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:08 stassats: what is the action of 'let' called? limiting variable scope? or what? 12:38:20 stassats: does the kind of thing it's doing have a name? 12:38:27 samuels`: LET establishes bindings 12:38:38 bindings in the variable namespace, to be exact 12:38:51 or succinctly, LET establishes variable bindings 12:38:55 tcr: what about what it's doing in terms of 'scope' ? 12:39:22 tcr: limiting variable scope? or some such? is there a nicer way of putting it by using 'scope' instead of 'bindings'? :P 12:40:05 LET establishes variable bindings with lexical scope 12:40:23 Axius [n=oijhif@92.82.76.145] has joined #lisp 12:40:32 lexical means that it's textually "limited" 12:41:02 -!- Axius [n=oijhif@92.82.76.145] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:41:13 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-80.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:41:39 tcr: thanks 12:41:54 tcr: what is the exact meaning of the term 'bindings' btw? :P 12:42:40 tcr: could you read this quickly and tell me if im right about the lisp references? http://banisterfiend.wordpress.com/?p=830 12:42:44 samuels`: CLHS, an online version of the ANSI Common Lisp standard, contains a glossary where such terms are defined 12:43:14 tcr: it's only a couple of paragraphs 12:43:21 they're defined for the context of the ANSI Common Lisp standard, there may be subtly different in other contexts 12:43:38 samuels`: I get a not found error 12:44:06 Why do you try to reference something at terms that you do not know? 12:45:38 tcr: hehe, well i havent actually used the term 'bindings' (since i find the word a bit intimidating and i dont fully understand it) so i just wrote my little article it terms of 'scope' instead. But i was thkning if i did undersatnd what 'bindings' meant i could perhaps use that word instead:) 12:46:23 tcr: here, http://banisterfiend.wordpress.com/2010/01/07/controlling-object-scope-in-ruby-1-9/ 12:47:21 objects have lifetimes; references (names) to objects have scope 12:48:03 Krystof: ah 12:48:11 Krystof: so i should change 'objects' to 'variables' ? 12:48:19 Krystof: so we can talk about variable scope, but not object scope? 12:49:12 for example, if in C you did int *bar { int *foo = malloc(8); bar = foo; }, the name foo cannot refer to anything after the end of the "curly bracket" bit, but the object it (used to) point to lives on 12:49:23 yes you're right 12:49:32 good point 12:49:50 so i should talk about controlling variable scope instead? 12:50:04 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.181.11.146] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:50:04 in Lisp we talk about bindings as the association between names/identifiers and values 12:50:15 an identifier is bound to a value 12:51:11 Krystof: do you think i can get away with talking about 'object' scope though? or it's so wrong that i should actually change it? 12:51:18 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 12:51:25 the scope of that binding can be lexical or indefinite; the extent (lifetime) of that binding can be indefinite or dynamic 12:51:30 there's scope and then there's extent, samuels` 12:51:32 so I'm a caveman and I'm writing an epoll binding on SBCL's alien. is emacs-macrologizing the .h file defines / enums to (defconstant pollin 1) etc the best caveman solution to getting constants? 12:51:43 I would say that "object scope" conflates two different things and sows confusion 12:51:55 Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has joined #lisp 12:51:59 Krystof: ah ok, can you suggest a better terminology? is 'variable scope' ok? 12:52:00 it only makes sense if everything in your language is basically stack-allocated 12:52:22 it depends on your audience 12:52:31 just ruby programmers 12:52:37 but there's a lot of lispers in the ruby community 12:53:04 there's also quite a number of C/C++ programmers 12:53:38 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:53:39 Why do you ask here instead of #ruby? 12:53:57 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:54:06 samuels: Scope is about names. 12:55:24 tcr: is it better if i say instead of "...to have precise control over the scope of a variable" rather than (what i had before) "...to have precise control over the lifetime of an object" 12:55:30 um 12:55:36 get rid of the 'instead of' 12:55:39 samuels`: That article is wrong as it stands. It confuses scope and lifetime. It's separate things, though sometimes conflated. 12:55:54 samuels`: That depends on what you want to express 12:55:59 it's different things 12:56:30 Zhivago is good at clarifying confused states of mind. Listen to him. 12:57:15 ok, basically the crux of what im trying to express is the advantages in having a 'let' like construct in a language. As it stands ruby does not have anything like a 'let', but the little bit of code in that article does provide something similar to a let 12:57:17 samuels: The region of text for which a given name refers to a given thing is its scope. 12:57:24 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@47-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["leaving"] 12:57:39 so in the opening paragraph i am trying to express the rationale for a let and why it can be useful etc 12:58:00 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 12:58:23 Zhivago: thanks 12:59:14 Zhivago: does the line '...to have...control over the scope of a variable' better express what you said than '..to have...control over the lifetime of an object' ? 12:59:42 What I said has absolutely nothing to do with lifetime. 13:00:52 ok, i'll go with the first :) thanks 13:01:06 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:03:13 samuels`: it depends on what your "scope" thing does. Does it restrict the textual area an variable identifier is valid? Or does it restrict the runtime lifetime of objects? 13:03:31 -!- BrettS [n=kirin@c-24-20-88-97.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 13:03:32 tcr: it restricts the textual area a variable identifier is valid 13:03:59 ok; why did you write "control over the lifetime of an object" in the first case? 13:04:04 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-172-111.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:04:29 Do you see now that it is wrong? 13:04:30 tcr: because that was my initial use case, and my view narrowed to only thinking about that :/ 13:04:46 yes i do 13:04:48 thanks 13:04:55 but you just said that your "scope" thing does not do that 13:05:25 so it in fact does not match your use case? 13:05:40 samuels: Are you aware that (let ((a 10)) (+ a 3)) is equivalent to ((lambda (a) (+ a 3)) 10) ? 13:05:40 tcr: but i was initializing the variable inside the scope in my use case 13:05:55 tcr: and so the lifetime of the object was tied to the block 13:06:10 Why are you confusing variables with objects? 13:06:14 Zhivago: yes, and that is exactly what it is in ruby too 13:06:20 samuels`: no, what is if you pass a block referencing such a variable outside the "scope" thing? 13:06:26 So, why the hell should it be that hard to explain? 13:06:50 is the object that the variable contained still valid? 13:06:51 Why should the lifetime of an object depend on the scope of a let? 13:07:01 What if I stick it in a hash-table? 13:07:06 tcr: yes, in that case you are right. But in my particular use case i was always initializing it with an object insid the scope so the object would always die by the end of the scope too 13:07:09 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32F2DC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:19 samuels: Irrelevant. 13:07:22 tcr: and that object was also craeted inside the scope 13:07:26 Zhivago: yes you're right :) 13:07:31 i was just explaining my stupidity 13:07:33 The scope has nothing to do with extent. 13:07:34 not trying to justify it 13:07:35 thanks 13:07:35 Ok. 13:08:13 Zhivago: well that's not entirely true either. if the syntax by default makes them the same, one could also say the opposite 13:08:27 guaqua: What? 13:08:31 but granted, most of the time it just confuses 13:09:44 if an object is instantiated and bound and its scope and extent are within that block (referring to a language like ruby) the scope and extent are "the same" 13:09:59 Then that's what we call "coincidence". 13:10:18 The extent doesn't depend on scope -- it depends on the number of references to the object. 13:10:24 also a quite common coincidence :) 13:10:38 Which is why so many people are stupid about it. 13:10:40 and that's what makes these concepts hard to understand 13:10:48 So, stop conflating them. 13:10:55 i will :) 13:12:47 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:17:41 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:18:53 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:20:36 -!- PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 13:25:09 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 13:26:00 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:26:36 -!- eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has left #lisp 13:28:48 FINALLY. Lispworks 6 has been released 13:29:15 rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:29:34 Full symetric MP, and gnome for us LX'ers 13:30:11 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 13:37:06 PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:37:10 -!- PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:38:59 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-204.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:58 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:43:42 Hmm, what encoding produces #xEF #xBF #xBD for é? 13:44:17 sb-grovel only has entry point for use with asdf? 13:45:58 -!- samuels` is now known as samuelszzzz 13:48:00 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-48-64.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [] 13:49:34 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-48-64.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 13:49:46 Xach: #xEF #xBF #xBD is the UTF-8 encoding for #xFFFD a.k.a. #\REPLACEMENT_CHARACTER 13:50:07 -!- samuelszzzz [n=df@115.189.237.202] has quit [] 13:50:17 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wevmrjetsymgbqpf] has left #lisp 13:53:07 fe[nl]ix: ahh, ugh, ok. thanks. 13:53:29 *Xach* has some destroyed data 13:53:44 UTF-8 seems to be very hard. 13:55:39 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-48-64.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:56:38 -!- FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:59:26 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 14:00:38 Xach: if you have a page codified as iso-8859-15 and the browser assumes it's UTF-8 it might display those characters as #\REPLACEMENT_CHARACTER 14:00:42 Xach: at least firefox does 14:00:43 snearch [n=olaf@g225049083.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:02:10 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:02:21 fe[nl]ix: I've recieved a text file that is the result of a botched conversion from latin-1 14:04:02 NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-226-23.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:30 sldb doesn't see `with-aliens' variables? 14:04:33 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:04:49 oh it's symbol-macrolet'ery 14:05:00 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-60-82-254-233-111.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:07:56 I wonder if meaningful debug info could be generated for symbol macros. Like making them internally expand to something like (let ((#1=#:[symbol-macro-XXX] )) (declare (do-not-alpha-convert-on-high-debug-settings)) #1#) 14:07:57 I wonder when $CPUMAKER will add text codec instructions 14:08:14 fe[nl]ix: some did already 14:09:16 I remember some architecture having instructions to work on utf8, surely someone like p_l will know details 14:13:47 p_l: speak up 14:14:15 hmm, anyone happen to have Erik Naggum's letbind.tar.gz? 14:14:20 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:28 oh, appears to be from Marco Antoniotti 14:15:50 Naggum's was the magnificent WHEREAS :) 14:17:39 i am heartbroken by the broken encoding conversion in this file :( 14:20:33 tcr: no idea, MMIX spec just notes that one should take Unicode to considerations while writing assembly 14:20:41 ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:20:50 tcr: it's however possible that intel might do something that weird 14:25:59 Geralt [n=Geralt@91.50.242.220] has joined #lisp 14:27:25 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:27:34 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:28:21 It was not intel but sparc, but I'll google 14:29:58 TDT [n=dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 14:30:26 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:31:26 dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:31:26 dcrawford_ [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:31:27 -!- dcrawford_ [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:33:14 -!- Spaghett1ni [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Success] 14:36:19 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:01 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439907.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:40:30 hrm I wonder what I'm rembering 14:40:30 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 14:41:00 tcr: that seems weird from one of the RISC promoters 14:41:10 that isn't POWER 14:41:56 tcr: sse4.2 has instructions than can be used to speed up common string algorithms 14:42:19 tcr: and used cleverly, they can speed up unicode encoding/decoding 14:42:20 ruediger [n=the-rued@91-115-178-21.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 14:43:02 why aren't we using them already? :-) 14:44:40 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:45:04 well, partly because the unicode encoding/decoding bits are patented 14:45:17 Krystof: I know one person who has a box that supports SSE 4.2 14:45:24 partly because I don't think there's a good fallback method if sse4.2 isn't available 14:45:58 and partly because I haven't had time to make the big change I want to make to octets, let alone adding whizbang optimizations useful for <0.1% of SBCL users ;) 14:46:10 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 14:46:14 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:46:18 want MORE TIME 14:46:37 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 14:46:41 minion: chant 14:46:42 MORE TIME 14:47:21 mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 14:47:40 well, given that everyone says that we're into the new decade, but in fact the decade starts in 2011 ... surely we've all gained a free year 14:48:58 froydnj: Nah I remember a instruction which _specifically_ works on a character encoding, not just general simd 14:49:40 Perhaps it was a dream :-) Today in the morning shower, I had the idea of a "Best OpenSource library award" event at ILC 14:50:37 -!- shortsightedsid [i=c0a314e8@gateway/web/freenode/x-wpdcbktslrzmrdcm] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 14:50:45 tcr: hm, that would be some instruction. then again, intel added crc32 and aes instructions, sooo... 14:50:52 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:51:32 froydnj: I think VIA pushed the aes stuff, Intel just followed and maybe completely reimplemented it 14:52:26 oh did via do it first? neat. 14:52:30 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:52:33 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-145-54.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:49 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:54:53 froydnj: VIA was stuffing AES and SHA stuff in first, I have no idea if Intel or AMD's current stuff is based on it or if they just did something new 14:55:08 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 14:56:30 anyway the VIA chips were really popular as a homebrew crypto accelerator that worked better that lot of purpose-built crypto accelerators for a while 14:57:19 tcr: trouble with "best open source library award" is that 50% of talks are _already_ singing Edi's praises :) 14:57:33 -!- besiria [n=user@83.212.84.106] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:57:51 lukego: I mean awarding the best newcomer 14:58:20 Might perhaps make people push harder on quality, documentation etc 14:58:24 -!- zoldar [n=zoldar@kyh66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:58:27 won't half the conference be tutting about giving stuff away, undercutting their consultancy and livelihoods, etc? 14:59:33 did kmp mellow a bit after getting a full 45 minute slot at Lisp50 to tell us about every incident when he didn't get what he deserved? :) 14:59:58 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:00:31 (I should not be such a grump. let's call it a new year's resolution.) 15:01:20 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 15:01:23 i didn't find his moderation of the "future of lisp" panel to be particularly flattering 15:01:38 (at ilc2009) 15:02:23 Axius [n=oijhif@92.84.27.189] has joined #lisp 15:02:42 -!- konr [n=user@189.98.234.110] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:02:52 hm they had that panel at Lisp50 aswell and it was either (a) a complete and utter lose or (b) the perfect lead-in to Rich Hickey 15:03:07 froydnj: I was thinking more of some PUTF8toUTF32 instruction, and all other permutations 15:03:46 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:04:00 konr [n=user@189.98.234.110] has joined #lisp 15:04:06 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:04:37 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 15:04:39 lukego: it was soul-gratingly awful at ILC. i thought the "great macro debate" would be just as bad, so i skipped it, but i heard it was better. 15:05:34 Xach: I suppose I've already lamented that I had to talk out of lisp50 about 1/3 of the way through. it seemed totally disconnected from 90s+ 15:05:41 walk out too 15:06:27 put me in such a mood that I didn't even fulfill my wildest dream of saying hello to Guy Steele 15:06:30 *Krystof* hopes for lots of papers about New, Exciting stuff at ELS2010 15:06:51 so that I don't have to fill the programme with "lisp51 retrospective" paneljunk 15:06:58 lukego: I didn't say hello, but I was a little in awe of giving a lightning talk that Guy introduced and timed, and seeing him laugh at my slides :) 15:07:07 (this is a hint: Please Write Papers!) 15:07:49 Xach: do you have those slides somewhere public ? 15:08:10 fe[nl]ix: yes 15:08:29 http://www.xach.com/lisp/LightningILC2009.pdf ... somewhat poorly converted from Keynote 15:08:34 -!- Axius [n=oijhif@92.84.27.189] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:08:56 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:09:19 Xach: that does sound good :) 15:10:47 Krystof, when is ELS'10 again? 15:11:08 6-7 May 15:11:16 http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/ 15:12:18 Xach: cool slides 15:12:20 Has there been many paper submissions Krystof? or do rather not make it public 15:12:33 I oughtnta missed ilc09 15:13:00 Guthur: about as many as I would expect 3 weeks before the deadline 15:13:12 Xach: do appear quite humorous, lolcats always make people smile hehe 15:13:34 Axius [n=oijhif@92.84.27.189] has joined #lisp 15:14:05 What are the formal requirements for a tutorial rather than talk? 15:14:17 besiria [n=user@83.212.84.106] has joined #lisp 15:14:27 oh it's on the side 15:14:30 site 15:14:58 How does a tutorial usually look like? 15:17:00 -!- Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:17:05 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 15:18:46 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:19:07 akar [n=oijhif@92.85.209.126] has joined #lisp 15:20:31 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:58 -!- snearch [n=olaf@g225049083.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:21:53 tcr: here are some abstracts 15:22:51 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:23:07 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:23:10 -!- Axius [n=oijhif@92.84.27.189] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:23:23 here's a (non-lisp-related) tutorial: 15:24:16 -!- akar [n=oijhif@92.85.209.126] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:25:15 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:25:31 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:25:59 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:28:06 is there an easy way to pretty-print an alien (array of structs) to see the slots? 15:28:10 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 15:31:43 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.202.158] has joined #lisp 15:32:07 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 15:35:30 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:35:42 Is slime able to inspect it? 15:36:58 anyone knows how to set the maximum number of lines in the *slime-repl * buffer to something smaller than infinity? 15:37:23 saba [n=saba@c213-89-102-144.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:39:18 prxq: to turn it into a circular buffer ? 15:39:19 H4ns [n=Hans@87.187.231.67] has joined #lisp 15:39:55 tcr: not meaningfully - sees two slots, a SAP and a type description 15:42:12 prxq: does not seem so 15:43:17 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:43:22 after more than a million lines something bad happened :-) 15:43:30 [stoop] [n=stoop@188.51.80.112] has joined #lisp 15:43:35 -!- [stoop] [n=stoop@188.51.80.112] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:43:57 stoop [n=stoop@188.51.80.112] has joined #lisp 15:44:20 probably due to large-file-warning-threshold 15:44:51 it used to be a comint buffer, but I have the comint buffer length set to 1024 (i'd say it doesn't work) 15:45:00 prxq you can clear it with C-c M-o 15:45:07 would cffi pretty-print foreign arrays/structs/etc for me? 15:45:33 there was a couple of other nice bindings but I can't remember them 15:45:39 prxq: comint seems to have a way specify maximum buffer size. might make sense for slime-repl, too. 15:45:42 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-243-211.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:54 Guthur: sure enough. But I'd prefer if it kept a maximum size 15:46:22 lukego: no 15:46:25 Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:46:42 tcr: ...right. And as I said, that is not working. :-) 15:46:59 prxq: I won't implement it; emacs gets sluggish if I don't C-c M-m every now and then on my slow notebook 15:47:10 so I'm not affected :) 15:47:30 You can also use C-c C-o to just truncate the output&repl result of the last evaluation. 15:48:34 fenix: so how do you debug when using alien values? 15:48:52 froydnj: SSE2 can still help with UTF-8 on ASCII input. Not sure how to deal with even 2-byte input (e.g. .jp) 15:49:07 prxq: C-h v comint-maximum-buffer-size says that `comint-truncate-buffer' must be on `comint-output-filter-functions'. 15:49:23 tcr: is there a general after-buffer-changed-hook ? 15:49:38 I believe so 15:49:50 pkhuong: yup, ditto with altivec. 15:50:01 tcr: in the inspector, is there an easy way to reference the inspectee as a variable? 15:50:19 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:50:35 fe[nl]ix: after-change-functions which can be made buffer-local, I guess 15:50:47 The best way to handle utf-8 is to use block operations and use encoded strings from front to end. 15:50:50 lukego: You can use M-RET on the inspector header to copy it down to the repl 15:51:05 "use encoded strings from front to end"? 15:51:13 no random access? 15:51:24 lukego: At work, I also ressurected presentations in the inspector, but I haven't come around getting that into mainline 15:51:47 froydnj: avoid encoding/decoding as much as possible. 15:52:26 Krystof: we can do without random access a lot of time. 15:53:10 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:53:38 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:54:13 lukego: I usually add a (break) after the incriminated form then I eval stuff in the debugger, dump memory, etc... 15:54:25 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@91-115-178-21.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:54:27 -!- frontiers [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:54:48 lukego: sometimes I try the Krystof method 15:55:08 fenix: but wouldn't it be awfully nice to be able to e.g. (format t "~S" my-epoll-event-array) ? 15:55:56 ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-178-21.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:56:30 lukego: and die on unmapped memory? 15:56:44 lukego: one reason for not doing that is that quite often it's easy to have something that... yeah, doesn't actually point anywehere 15:57:08 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:57:12 lukego: no. that would require C structs to be runtime objects, i.e. no inlining and slowness 15:57:49 felix: alien seems to have all the info it needs for this. 15:57:49 lukego: clearly somebody needs to write an FFI debugger 15:58:19 ok I see why it wouldn't want to be the default print method, for segv reasons. but here I am inside a (with-alien ..) and not especially at risk 15:58:37 if I could dump the struct easily it would be a simple point in the "glad I'm doing this in Lisp instead of C" column 15:58:58 lukego: walk the alien type object and print! 15:59:00 but I will shush up and write the 10 lines 15:59:19 *froydnj* hopes that column is written using Lisp to avoid overflow 15:59:33 does CLHS define the consequences of multiple EQL tags within one tagbody form? 16:01:12 the only place I see it mentioning multiple EQL tags is in the page for GO, where it says that control jumps to the lexically innermost tag. It doesn't talk about tags at the same tagbody level. Both CCL and SBCL refuse to compile such tagbody forms. 16:01:30 Krystof: random access (meaning "indexed access") into text is important, e.g. iteration can built very nicely on indexed access. But you don't usually need access to the nth code point. It's sufficient to have the concept of a "pointer" into the string, which would be implemented using the byte offset. Moving the pointer one code point to the left and right is O(1). More importantly, finding a substring is still O(n). 16:01:34 Unless, of course, you're unfortunate enough to be working with Common Lisp strings, which are specified to be character arrays. :-( 16:02:04 interestingly, CLISP compiles it just fine :\ 16:03:02 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:03:04 LiamH1 [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:03:19 -!- LiamH1 is now known as LiamH 16:03:38 hm now I am using sb-alien:: and sb-alien-internals: and this does not seem so nice 16:03:42 looks like clisp just retains the rightmost tag in the tagbody, and forgets the rest. 16:03:48 lichtblau: I await with excitement the first person to be brave and implement proper Unicode stringoids, ideally using as many unportable features as possible 16:04:06 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:04:58 we'll get there. right after phasing out pathnames. 16:04:59 lukego: bah, double colons ;) 16:05:22 "proper" unicode stringoids? 16:05:41 While we're on that, should "auxiliary-type-definitions" use macroexpand-1 instead of macroexpand? 16:05:50 (in host-alieneval.lisp:161) 16:09:53 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.3.217] has joined #lisp 16:10:19 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:11:01 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:11:27 froydnj: something which treats characters as characters, rather than code points as characters 16:12:19 oh, that'd be fun. so character combining and all that 16:12:44 yes 16:12:58 bonus points if you preserve any kind of efficiency 16:17:06 felix: can you tell me some nice memory-dump tricks? 16:18:22 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:18:50 Yuuhi``` [i=benni@84.131.197.25] has joined #lisp 16:19:15 marioxcc [n=user@200.77.65.198] has joined #lisp 16:20:00 Krystof: or some CL implementation could do as LispWorks: use ICU 16:20:50 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 16:21:11 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@118.173.102.90.adsl.dynamic.totbb.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:21:25 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:47 lukego: dump the memory as a latin-9 string. that way you can't have decoding errors 16:22:58 oh, hey, those char-{equal,downcase,upcase} transforms don't fire anymore. 16:23:53 lukego: or you could use cffi and just crib the epoll code from iolib 16:24:07 milanj [n=milan@109.93.62.126] has joined #lisp 16:24:58 -!- Yuuhi`` [i=benni@p5483CC7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:29:55 -!- madsy [n=madsy@ti0207a340-0168.bb.online.no] has quit ["leaving"] 16:29:57 tcr: hm. for some reason that does not seem to work. I've put (add-hook 'comint-output-filter-functions 'comint-truncate-buffer) to init.el, but the buffer increases beyond the 1024 line limit. 16:30:22 (and restarted emacs & slime, of course.) It is emacs 23 16:30:32 tcr: oh, interesting stuff. Does that help with overly full buffers? 16:31:12 I don't know what prxq tries tbh 16:31:26 pkhuong: but he raised the point that there's no way to specify a maximum buffer size for the slime repl 16:31:34 I said "patches welcome" 16:32:29 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 16:34:13 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:34:17 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 16:35:05 madsy [n=madsy@ti0207a340-1523.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 16:35:12 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:36:00 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:36:05 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-123-121.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 16:39:10 conditions are definitely one for the "glad I'm not doing this in C" list 16:39:20 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.66.32] has joined #lisp 16:39:56 -!- besiria [n=user@83.212.84.106] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:40:33 fe[nl]ix pasted "auto-truncate slime buffer" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93063 16:40:37 I'm not familiar with the foreign land, are there ways to make slime's inspector better on those? 16:40:56 prxq: could you try if that works ? 16:41:11 there's an html encoding error in there, fe[nl]ix 16:41:53 poor lisppaste.el 16:42:10 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:44 tcr: surely so for my example, using with-alien stack-allocated arrays and structures. I can see that all the type information (array size, structure layout) is there at runtime. but maybe this is a bit of a special case (?) and I don't see documented interfaces to introspecting this stuff 16:42:58 fe[nl]ix annotated #93063 "remove HTML entity" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93063#1 16:43:18 1s 16:44:36 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:45:03 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:45:11 Is it "overwrite name A with name B", or "overwrite name A by name B" ? 16:46:04 "overwrite ... with ..." 16:46:11 i get error in process filter: count-lines: Wrong number of arguments: #[(arg) "ÁVƒ 16:46:17 "... was overwritten by ..." 16:46:36 and error in process filter: Wrong number of arguments: #[(arg) "ÁVƒ 16:47:18 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 16:49:59 -!- lisperati_boy [n=topo@190.232.44.65] has quit [] 16:50:08 doesn't make any sense. The count-lines call is good. 16:51:32 prxq: it should be (buffer-end 1) 16:52:26 now it's "args out or range 0, 19" :-) 16:53:06 prxq: change that 0 to 1 16:53:57 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-189-212.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 16:54:48 fe[nl]ix: It might make more sense to use buffer-size, and not parametrize the maximum by #lines 16:55:09 well that works, but isn't good. I presume that one has to truncate the first line or something. Like this it scrambles the buffer. 16:55:25 using after-change-functions for that may result in performance sluggishness 16:55:26 tcr: you're right. count-lines seems to be pretty slow 16:56:33 wow, this is really slow 16:56:51 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:57:15 splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-toogtkiwvjoegmuo] has joined #lisp 16:57:17 topo [n=topo@190.232.44.65] has joined #lisp 16:58:39 alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:58:41 prxq: what do you mean it scrambles the buffer ? 16:59:55 the repl prompt ends up in line two after truncation, with the rest of the text under it 17:00:07 or should I update siime? 17:00:13 slime 17:01:25 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:02:08 bad approach this is. I tried to compile clx but the after-change-functions weren't called during compilation 17:02:35 Wow! This is cool. M-x undo operates on transient-mark 17:02:57 i.e. it restricts undos to the region 17:03:15 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:03:33 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [] 17:04:38 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:07:05 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:08:16 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:10:17 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:10:36 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.6.63] has joined #lisp 17:16:29 Is it possible to have more than one slime-inspector buffer 17:16:32 ? 17:16:41 -!- Draggor is now known as Dra`vi 17:17:09 not really, you can M-x clone-buffer, but you cannot meaningfully navigate in both at the same time 17:17:24 tcr: ok thanks 17:17:42 I meant to do the necessary work to make it work properly, in fact I did start but never finished 17:21:37 It would be a nice feature 17:21:50 on top of so many all ready 17:21:57 already* 17:23:48 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:03 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:27:31 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 17:29:33 is there a simple way to strace sbcl with background noise (futexes, signal handling, etc) filtered out? 17:30:08 think strace has options to filter syscalls 17:30:47 Hergonan [n=Zerg@cpc2-bath5-2-0-cust211.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:30:53 hello, how do I get the type of a variable? 17:31:21 strace | grep seemed to cause a SIGILL 17:32:17 Hergonan: with TYPE-OF you can get the type of a value 17:32:33 lukego: strace outputs to stderr 17:32:48 thanks starseeker_ 17:32:51 stassats`* 17:32:58 lukego: think you want something like strace -e '!futex,sigreturn,...' 17:33:02 -!- topo [n=topo@190.232.44.65] has quit [] 17:33:18 hm, screen's split region handling is woefully underpowered 17:33:37 felix: (it was really with 2>&1) 17:33:43 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:34:03 strace at least used to get thorougly confused by segv handling for the write barrier 17:34:06 I don't know if that's changed 17:35:55 bummer SIGILL seems to be happening even with a pretty conservative '-e' to strace 17:36:54 Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-090-028.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 17:37:13 hmm 17:38:15 balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 17:38:40 is there some better alternative to strace? 17:39:33 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:44 Axius [n=oijhif@92.82.89.125] has joined #lisp 17:40:05 I seem to consistently crash sbcl within a minute when strace -p'ing it. 17:41:50 (or is it only with -f -p .. checking) 17:43:04 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit ["Client Quit"] 17:46:51 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 17:47:42 lukego: why are you stracing sbcl? 17:48:19 I'm making system calls (epoll_*) that aren't doing what I expect, so I want to see want to see the interactions with the kernel 17:48:49 *Xach* likes epoll 17:49:18 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:50:00 Xach: are you also a member of the cffi-users club? 17:50:31 lukego: not directly. 17:50:48 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-198-51.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:50:52 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-178-116.adslplus.ch] has left #lisp 17:50:57 lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-178-116.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 17:50:57 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-178-116.adslplus.ch] has left #lisp 17:51:16 lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-178-116.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 17:51:19 (oops) 17:52:03 i remain a committed member of the fanclub 17:54:53 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 17:56:47 topo [n=topo@190.232.44.65] has joined #lisp 17:56:50 hi 17:56:52 -!- Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:56:58 -!- topo is now known as lisperati_boy 17:57:06 i have one question 17:57:24 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:28 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:58:12 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:58:15 if i create an object with struct is it called objet? is it correct? 17:58:23 lisperati_boy: everything in lisp is an object 17:58:27 lisperati_boy: so, yes. 17:58:33 ok 17:58:46 42 is an object, "foo" is an object, and a struct is an object 17:58:53 if you're concerned about terms, the CLHS's glossary is a good place to check 17:59:12 my question is this: i have an array with objects , i would like to store that data in a txt file so , i can reload it later 17:59:13 lisperati_boy, defstruct doesn't create "standard classes", though. It creates structure classes. 17:59:23 my array looks like this: 17:59:24 #3A(((#S(PATCH :C 0.706771 :T 1 :X 0) #S(PATCH :C 0.8056723 :T 1 :X 0)) 17:59:25 (#S(PATCH :C 0.66076183 :T 1 :X 0) #S(PATCH :C 0.8030789 :T 1 :X 0))) 17:59:25 ((#S(PATCH :C 0.7069969 :T 1 :X 0) #S(PATCH :C 0.07249367 :T 1 :X 0)) 17:59:25 (#S(PATCH :C 0.29337013 :T 1 :X 0) #S(PATCH :C 0.99078953 :T 1 :X 0)))) 17:59:32 very nice 17:59:51 how can i save it in a txt file? 17:59:57 lisperati_boy, one advantage of structs is that they can be trivially serialized 18:00:12 what do you mean with serialized? 18:00:18 (alien-size (* int)) => 64 ; should I be aware of any 32 vs. 64 bit issues when using alien? 18:00:48 lisperati_boy: Serialization is the conversion of data to a byte stream of file. 18:00:51 More or less.. 18:00:53 written to a text file or database 18:01:01 s/of/or 18:01:07 i want to write to a text file 18:01:10 how can i do that? 18:01:24 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 18:01:29 and what is it useful for to convert data into a byte stream? 18:01:33 lisperati_boy: with-open-file and print 18:01:42 ok ill check out 18:01:44 -!- jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:01:46 hi adeht 18:01:51 hey tcr :) 18:02:01 lisperati_boy: it is useful to convert data into an octet stream if you must adhere to a specific binary format. i use lisp to write GIF and PNG files for example. 18:02:45 oh! I am a total, complete, utter idiot :). I misread epoll.h and defined a struct instead of a union. good times :) 18:03:36 whats an octet stream? 18:03:53 lisperati_boy: a stream of 8-bit bytes 18:04:26 the CL stream element type is (unsigned-byte 8) 18:04:39 oh 18:04:39 ok 18:07:03 wow, Lispworks finally looks nice on Linux! 18:07:12 is there a way to check if a variable is between 'a and 'z ? 18:07:31 Hergonan: char<= is one way. 18:07:39 but I'm using symbols 18:07:49 Hergonan: so check the first character of the symbol-name. 18:08:23 okay 18:08:25 =p 18:09:08 you can pass symbols to string<= 18:09:14 Hergonan: you're not really working on a variable, though. you're working on, as you mention, a symbol. 18:09:21 Hergonan: what is the context? 18:09:49 well 18:10:01 I'm trying to build a polynomial manipulation thingy 18:10:19 and I'm using (list 'x '+ 'y) for example 18:10:25 (I'm a total noob at lisp =p) 18:10:40 ah 18:11:27 Hergonan: is this for class?? 18:11:41 Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:15 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:12:19 soupdragon yeah 18:13:16 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439907.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 18:14:17 jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 18:16:41 (symbol-name x) seems to work nicely 18:17:13 Hergonan: actually, you can also use string<=. it accepts symbols as arguments. 18:17:50 sepult [n=user@xdsl-78-35-197-122.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:18:03 yeah 18:18:05 I just tried it :p 18:21:02 so it'll be (char (string 'x) 0) 18:21:27 Xach: well, I shouldn't have mentioned it in retrospect, as it's likely not what he wanted 18:21:49 adeht: oh, sorry, missed that. 18:22:10 I guess he just wants to know about the first character of the symbol's name 18:23:02 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 18:23:15 alpha-char-p seems suitable too 18:23:29 only if case doesn't matter 18:24:11 The more vague the question, the more delightful and varied the answers 18:27:19 heh, Xach, that reminds me of How do I test if a line read from file is empty string? and its aftermath... 18:28:13 *Xach* missed that, but didn't miss it 18:28:56 (zerop (file-position ))? 18:29:24 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-198-51.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:30:25 Ralith_ [n=ralith@d142-058-090-191.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 18:30:48 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 18:31:06 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 18:32:50 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-0-47.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:33:00 skeptomai: I can't remember. Is skeptomai passive, or medium? 18:33:55 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 18:35:58 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-090-028.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:37:00 tcr: middle-voice verb 18:37:14 -!- Axius [n=oijhif@92.82.89.125] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:38:01 Ah ok I'm not familiar with the english terms :-) nice nick 18:38:17 -!- Ralith_ is now known as Ralith 18:38:32 tcr: and it's nearly the whole of my memory of Greek. Haven't looked at it in a *long time* :) 18:39:29 *skeptomai* wishes for more time to spend with human languages than programming languages 18:39:33 I'd like to study it but I don't have the money to pay additional fees 18:39:38 skeptomai: why middle voice ? ;p 18:39:39 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:40:07 xcristos: from your nick, you're probably better placed to answer that than I am :) 18:40:28 there is no middle voice in modern greek 18:40:42 I was looking in a Koine Greek reference :) 18:40:54 shows you what I (don't) know 18:41:08 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:41:19 (it was a New Testament Greek primer) 18:41:31 skeptomai: oh you're an old c.l.l fart? 18:41:31 ok 18:41:53 What do you do todays? 18:42:24 tcr: well I'm old :) I head engineering for a startup in Seattle, writing primarily Ruby & Erlang, but Lisp is still dear to me 18:43:20 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-109-199.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:43:27 Hergonan: no, you can just write (and (string<= 'a symbolic-variable) (string<= symbolic-variable 'z) ) 18:43:37 tcr: There was a fart named Christopher B. Browne 18:43:38 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:44:08 yep, different guy. Always ran across his stuff. Too many Chris Brown(e)s out there 18:44:26 snearch_ [n=olaf@g225049083.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:44:35 *Xach* was quite sad to learn there are multiple Zachary Beanes 18:46:40 But only One True XBeane 18:46:48 When I worked at Microsoft, there were 5 Chris Browns. We had our own internal mailing list to keep stuff straight 18:47:01 pjb: ZEBRA is not in that set, for example 18:47:15 heheh 18:47:15 *splittist* realises he could have saved an hour of debugging by taking the error message at face value ): 18:47:51 adeht: that's what Hergonan asked for. ;-) He needs to think about what he asks. 18:48:06 splittist: what message ? 18:48:40 fe[nl]ix: I'm ashamed to say, not lisp-related. 18:49:25 splittist: you are forgiven. now what was the message ? 18:49:28 NotSavedError, fwiw 18:50:10 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-6-64.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:50:32 *Xach* joins the paredit club 18:51:03 sierinjs [n=sierinjs@unaffiliated/sierinjs] has joined #lisp 18:51:31 why does (string<= 'c 'x) return 0? 18:51:37 instead of "T" or "NIL" 18:51:43 0 is true. 18:51:49 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:51:57 It returns 0 because it is allowed to return a generalized boolean, such as 0. 18:52:02 i see 18:52:04 okay, thanks 18:52:04 "T" is a string. 18:52:10 yeah 18:52:13 "NIL" is true too. 18:52:22 actually, it's a bit more than that 18:52:24 clhs string<= 18:52:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_stgeq_.htm 18:52:24 "...returns the longest common prefix (using char=) of the two strings, otherwise ()." 18:52:25 It would return true or NIL. 18:52:30 they return a mismatch index 18:52:42 (describe 'strign<=) or clhs string<=. 18:53:45 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 18:54:04 ysph [n=user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:56:57 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-61-42.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:58:26 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 18:58:57 Is there a *portable*/to-spec way of getting some unique fixnum from a reference (some value of a pointer for sorting purposes) or doing reference comparison? 18:59:45 reference comparasion is done by EQ 19:00:01 (define-alien-type foo (struct foo (a (unsigned 32)) (b (unsigned 64)))) 19:00:05 you can get the printed representation of the reference via print-unreadable-object :type t 19:00:10 (alien-size foo) => 128 19:00:32 notice that the reference "id" will change over time due to gc 19:00:33 I'd prefer that to be 96 bits. is there a simple way? 19:00:58 lukego: I don't think so, short of futzing with the alien machinery 19:00:59 tcr : I meant a < > comparison 19:01:11 lukego: you mean, you want a packed struct. 19:01:21 Modius: Not portably 19:01:23 lukego: I don't believe sb-alien has support for that, but it ought to 19:01:34 froydnj: I think that gcc is generating a 96-bit version. they have __attribute__ ((__packed__)) 19:01:52 lukego: Exactly right. Packed structs are part of the platform ABI 19:01:59 foom: I should learn to stop ignoring gcc directives that I don't udnerstand, I would save hours of my life :) 19:02:04 tcr: Figured it was most likely a really bad idea, just confirming thanks. 19:02:11 lukego: yup, that'd do it. 19:02:13 So, it's a defect in sb-alien that it doesn't support that. 19:02:59 foom: do you have these problems? or do you use another tool than alien? 19:03:31 lukego: I've never run into this problem, no. 19:03:43 you use sbcl alien for FFI? 19:03:47 lukego: yes 19:03:58 I just happen to not have ever run across a packed struct. :) 19:04:03 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:04:31 CFFI can pack DEFCSTRUCT slots manually using :OFFSET, I think. Don't know whether it has an automatic packing option. 19:04:53 -!- snearch_ [n=olaf@g225049083.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:04:54 you can work around it by using two 32 bit slots 19:05:00 and then stuff them together 19:05:12 lichtblau: I'm a bit reluctant to introduce an extra layer, which is my bias against CFFI 19:05:28 *foom* queues rant about portability layers. :) 19:05:36 or is that cues 19:05:49 CFFI isn't really an extra layer, as evidenced by the fact that its structures have features that alien doesn't. 19:05:52 -!- NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-226-23.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:05:56 foom: sadly I have to allocate an array of these, so I suppose the overrun will bugger that up 19:06:10 lukego: overrun? 19:06:50 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-8850.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:07:07 foom: I may be misunderstanding. do you propose I change my struct to three 32-bit slots? would that be 96 or 128 bits in total? 19:07:23 yes, 3 32-bit slots. That would be 96 bits. 19:07:32 lichtblau: I may be on the wrong track. it feels like bringing in more moving parts. 19:07:48 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9764.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 19:07:54 the reason the default is 128 bits is because the 64bit int gets aligned to 64bit offset 19:08:01 so there's 32 bits of padding in between the slots 19:08:02 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:08:12 ah 19:08:13 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:08:15 the packed layout says not to insert the padding 19:09:42 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:01 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:33 C seems a tad suboptimal as a glue language 19:11:33 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:11:36 clhs with-open-file 19:11:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_open.htm 19:11:37 but you should add support for packed structs to sb-alien. :) 19:12:08 yes that is probably true. I'm trying to avoid tools-hacking now because it's all a bit of a "how productive can I be in lisp" experiment at the moment 19:12:26 bonus points for making it work properly on non-x86oids out of the gate. 19:13:24 froydnj: oh, you mean you want unaligned reads to work right on platforms that don't support that, too? 19:14:04 would be quite handy to have hexdump sort of commands, like "show me 1000 bytes in hex and ascii starting at MY-SAP" 19:14:07 yes. although the # of SBCL users to whom that matters *and* are using packed structs is probably pretty small 19:14:12 if anyone has some to paste I'd be obliged 19:14:22 I wonder whether gcc actually does that right 19:14:38 I wrote something like that once...*pokes* 19:14:44 I'm pretty sure it does. 19:14:48 If you have a packed struct, the alignment is 1 byte, so you'd have to use byte-sized reads for everything, right? 19:15:18 you can use aligned reads if the alignment of the field you're reading is right 19:16:06 I don't believe you: what if your struct "foo" is inside "struct bar {char a; struct foo b; } __attribute__(packed);" 19:16:40 mm, point 19:16:44 felix: how come cffi knows to pack the structure correctly in iolib? I don't see any __packed__ declarationey thing 19:16:57 SSC? 19:17:02 I see that gcc uses unaligned reads even for fields that have the "right" alignment 19:17:08 lukego: you don't need to use sb-alien's struct. 19:17:25 lukego: you can use direct offsets in memory access 19:17:26 foom: does this alignment business only matter on 64-bit userspace? 19:17:38 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.66.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:17:55 one question 19:17:58 foom: rumour has it you know about this raw memory access sort of stuff. if you have any random blobs of code to paste I'd appreciate the inspiration 19:18:04 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@93-80-210-34.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:18:07 with-open-file works for creating a txt file? 19:18:26 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:18:49 lisperati_boy: yes, you need :direction :output and :element-type 'character 19:19:10 but it also works for reading a txt file , isnt it? 19:19:36 tcr whats direction? 19:20:27 lisperati_boy: as argument to with-open-file; the library alexandria contains utils for this 19:20:44 lisperati_boy: e.g. alexandria:with-output-to-file, and on top of that alexandria:write-string-to-file 19:21:05 whats alexandria? 19:21:11 minion: alexandria 19:21:11 do i need to download that library? 19:21:12 alexandria: Alexandria is a collection of portable public domain utilities. http://www.cliki.net/alexandria 19:21:28 Yes, it's public domain. You can just grab the definitions you need 19:21:46 can i do that without that library , or do i need it ? 19:22:01 No you do not need it, it shows you how to do it 19:22:06 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-090-191.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 19:22:19 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 19:22:22 ummm 19:22:27 lisperati_boy, you don't need to download it to use with-open-file, but it has a few useful utilities which could make your life easier. 19:23:07 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-37-82-253-18-121.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:16 rather than (with-open-file (stream "file" :direction ...) (write-string ...)), you could just (write 19:23:23 (write-string-to-file ..) 19:23:41 hi Adlai. Any work on the ccl slime bits? 19:24:07 and whats direction? 19:24:16 tcr, not since we last discussed it -- had a busy day at work, and I'm a bit sick. 19:24:21 clhs open 19:24:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_open.htm 19:24:43 lisperati_boy, :direction, :element-type, and a few other arguments you can use in with-open-file are explained in that CLHS page. 19:24:53 Adlai: How's winter in Israel? 19:24:55 ok 19:25:13 Does PCL cover W-OPEN-FILE? 19:25:36 http://l1sp.org/pcl/with-open-file let's find out! 19:26:23 I wish we had a dedicated specbot hacker 19:26:28 tcr, basically the same weather we had at ECLM. 19:26:39 clhs write-string 19:26:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_stg.htm 19:27:10 lisperati_boy, you can query specbot through private messages too :) 19:27:13 minion: memo for nyef: Have you ever written up the socket-fd-losage problem of specbot? 19:27:14 Remembered. I'll tell nyef when he/she/it next speaks. 19:27:27 and if i want to save an array to a txt file do i need to use write-string? 19:27:35 foom: thanks for the tip. splitting into a pair of 32-bit fields worked 19:27:39 -!- Younder [n=jthing@233.159.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:27:46 clhs write-sequence 19:27:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_seq.htm 19:27:49 lisperati_boy: you can use WRITE 19:27:56 actually, that won't work for the array that you described earlier. 19:28:01 i have an array called "a" and i want to save it in a txt file 19:28:04 is this fine? 19:28:09 (with-open-file (stream "/lispcodes/myarray.txt" :direction :output) (write-string a)) 19:28:23 just write? 19:28:32 lisperati_boy: WRITE has a READABLY key parameter 19:28:40 (with-open-file (stream "/lispcodes/myarray.txt" :direction :output) (write a)) 19:28:45 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 19:28:50 lisperati_boy: it depends what you want to 'save' in the text file. 19:29:02 i have an array 19:29:08 i got that 19:29:11 lukego: all merit goes to cffi-grovel 19:29:19 lisperati_boy: I suggest you read the clhs entry for it, then figure out the right arguments to pass 19:29:22 drewc, he described it above -- it's a 3d array of structs, and it prints readably. 19:30:02 oh... well then... 19:30:05 lukego: when I said raw memory access, I just meant you can use sap-ref-32 or sap-ref-64 directly 19:30:06 felix: but I'm looking at the grovel output, and I still don't see any "this should be packed" annotation, so I'm just curious how it's signalled. 19:30:11 my arrray looks like this 19:30:12 http://pastebin.com/m2aac7b65 19:30:23 lisperati_boy: the clhs covers every possible case, you should read about PRINTing and READing 19:30:31 lisppaste, url? 19:30:31 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 19:30:33 ok 19:30:40 lukego: you can encode offsets and make accessors that dtrt using that 19:30:53 lukego: regarding "productivity" bits; to be productive, you should probably use the things that many (if not most) people use: it'll probably have the fewest rough edges. And I think that's cffi nowadays. 19:31:20 lisperati pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93070 19:31:22 foom: how come you use alien instead of cffi? 19:31:32 ok, this is how the array looks 19:31:33 http://paste.lisp.org/display/93070 19:31:57 lukego: I don't think cffi actually existed when the code was written. :) 19:32:10 clhs printing 19:32:10 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for printing. 19:32:14 lisperati_boy: it doesn't matter.. read the documentation that was given to you, try a few things. 19:32:16 clhs reading 19:32:16 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for reading. 19:32:17 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:32:19 lukego: I used cffi for the first time in my most recent project. I was a bit disappointed at some of its missing features, but it works. 19:32:25 clhs print 19:32:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_pr.htm 19:32:32 ok thank im gonna read 19:32:37 lisperati_boy: and specbot can be /msg'd .. please stop the noise in the channel 19:32:43 Younder [n=jthing@233.159.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:32:54 speak of the noise in the channel 19:32:59 foom: what feature would you like to have ? 19:33:04 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-71-247-105-237.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:07 Adlai: ha.... i had the same thought :) 19:33:11 how can i make for not making noise in the channel? 19:33:19 fe[nl]ix: typed references 19:33:25 Adlai, or don't 19:33:43 lisperati_boy: you can private message specbot, or just use google. 19:34:00 tcr: you could be right. for now my feeling is that I value simplicity more and portability less than most people, so my choices will be a little different 19:34:00 yes, you are all heart. helpfull and supportive 19:34:08 ah ok 19:34:24 lukego: Sure, more power to you. (Have you read Krystof's Unportable but Fun paper?) 19:34:41 iolib has 10 .asd definition files and that scares the crap out of me :) 19:34:54 lukego: what is there to be scared ? 19:34:57 fe[nl]ix: to be fair, in ITA code, we actually don't really use Alien's built-in support for that, either, though... 19:35:02 felix: verbosity :) 19:35:04 lisperati_boy, also, take a look at http://l1sp.org/ which does redirects to many CL documentation sites. 19:35:08 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:35:15 sound works again. by the way. (Reason for reboot) 19:35:21 ok 19:35:24 lukego: I thought iolib was easy to understand 19:35:27 Younder: on topic, please. 19:35:36 lukego: Productivity should trump any feelings about simplicity&elegance! 19:35:41 lukego: you're using the word verbosity in a way unfamiliar to me 19:35:47 as simple as possible.. no simpler! 19:36:07 fe[nl]ix: instead, having (defstruct (c-object) (pointer 0 :type fixnum)), and then the def-c-struct macro which wraps alien's define-alien-type creates a subclass of that struct. 19:36:22 last question 19:36:32 why does it says "array---a generalized boolean" 19:36:34 lukego: I'd guess that cffi always packs structs. should ask luis 19:36:38 tcr: nah, that's short-term thinking. I will end up having to debug every program I use, so I prefer them to be as small as possible :) 19:36:45 fe[nl]ix: it certainly doesn't. 19:36:48 what does it mean with generalized boolean? 19:36:56 foom: sure ? 19:36:58 felix: if that's true then it's just broken in a different way though. (this is kind of why I asked) 19:37:01 lisperati_boy: you can click on that term 19:37:11 lukego: Well, if you use a kool-aid package, you may be able to come here, talk to the right person, and have that person debug the problem for you 19:37:12 fe[nl]ix: not 100%, just 90%. ;p 19:37:19 i see 19:38:14 fe[nl]ix: see %foreign-type-alignment 19:38:22 foom: with (defcstruct foo (a :uint64) (b :uint32)), I get (foreign-type-size 'foo) => 12 19:38:26 tcr: I'll see how I go and maybe switch 19:38:28 -!- ysph [n=user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:38:39 fe[nl]ix: now try the other way around 19:38:49 lukego: lichtblau seems to be enjoying the cffi+iolib ride. 19:39:04 foom seems to be doing okay with alien 19:39:24 rumour the other day was that SBCL's code generator is more clever with aliens than with cffi, but I don't remember who said that 19:39:27 foom: the same, first :uint32 then :uint64 19:39:32 you didn't ask him if it was his choice, if he used alien again :-) 19:39:38 lukego: nyef, methinks 19:39:43 ysph [n=user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:39:51 lukego: i've used alien and cffi extensively and much prefer cffi, fwiw 19:40:04 apropos of the sbcl-devel mailing list that I just started reading, if cffi is really superior then I'll definitely start using it when sbcl adopts it in place of alien 19:40:30 fe[nl]ix: you're testing on a 32bit platform, I suspect. 19:40:31 foom: silly me, I'm on x86 19:40:34 yes :D 19:40:40 drewc: any particular reasons? 19:40:54 try again with uint16 and 32. :) 19:40:57 stazich [n=stas@83-47-112.netrun.cytanet.com.cy] has joined #lisp 19:41:22 lukego, it is inferrior to all ffi's as is the leat common denominator. It is however portable 19:41:30 least 19:41:35 foom: now they're both unpacked 19:42:04 lukego: well, cffi seems more 'complete' to me, and _it_ uses internal symbols, so i don't have to. 19:42:06 yea. 19:42:13 (internal SBCL symbols i mean) 19:42:28 lukego: also, portability is free... which is nice. 19:42:40 really? I don't think you need internal SBCL symbols to use alien. portability is the big thing cffi has going for it IMO 19:43:05 portability and very active usage 19:43:10 foom : callbacks are not exported 19:43:27 (or were not last time i use alien) 19:43:28 is iolib really 10KLOC? 19:43:35 ok, gtg, lunch 19:46:33 -!- alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:46:45 Is there a safe/portable reversal to defun? 19:46:57 fmakunbound 19:47:06 lukego: 10681 it seems 19:47:28 lukego: assuming that '^[[:space:]]*("[^"]*"[[:space:]]*|;.*)?$' is correct 19:47:58 For those of you looking for message queue software that works with lisp, I found http://13-49.blogspot.com/2009/12/common-lisp-is-fast-for-real-business.html to be of interest. 19:48:08 felix: I find that intimidating - it must be doing a lot of stuff. I expect my binding to epoll to be less than 100 lines 19:48:48 lukego: that's what I said you can crib the code from iolib 19:49:28 tcr: thanks for the ref to christophe's talk about unportable goodies, looks very nice 19:49:42 there's a paper too 19:49:52 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp121-45-34-54.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:55 lukego: I think it's because iolib is actually several libraries put together 19:49:57 felix: oh, yeah that's probably not a bad suggestion. 19:50:04 lukego: all in 3 files: src/syscalls/ffi-types-unix.lisp src/syscalls/ffi-functions-unix.lisp and src/multiplex/backend-epoll.lisp 19:50:21 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:51 -!- ysph [n=user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:50:55 alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 19:51:39 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:51:47 felix: the reason I didn't do that is that I only want to call 3 functions and they have quite basic data structures, so it "should have only taken" half an hour at most. but for a couple of mistakes :) 19:52:18 ysph [n=user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:52:39 harovali [n=harovali@r190-135-35-47.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:55:09 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-71-247-105-237.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:55:33 dnolen [n=dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 19:57:59 the paper needs revision 19:58:38 (it has been accepted for publication, but the reviewers made plenty of suggestions to turn it from an OK paper to a good paper) 19:58:42 adeht: that's correct, but I prefer not to have to manage 10 different repositories, releases, etc... 19:59:59 Krystof: Having read the paper, I'd be interested to hear about the revision remarks. Are you allowed (willing) to disclose them? 20:00:07 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-votnbzsmjazcvwme] has joined #lisp 20:00:07 the scripts, they hold the power! 20:00:23 fe[nl]ix: sure, I don't think it's too bad 20:00:48 luis: have you finished those changes to cffi ? 20:01:20 today is the day! 20:01:42 fe[nl]ix: it was just to say that the 10kloc judgment maybe was too shallow for the conclusion 20:01:53 even figured out how to have two node anchors in the same html-page/node 20:01:55 yay 20:02:00 tcr: basically they said that it still read too much like a tutorial, and that the argument about unportability wasn't consistently argued through the paper 20:02:26 I agree with that :-) 20:02:51 and I remember you saying that you do too 20:03:13 I look forward to that paper. is it ELS2010? 20:03:48 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:04:28 hm or "accepted for publication" suggests some journal? 20:04:34 lukego: no it is ELS2009 post-proceedings 20:04:49 I am not publishing in ELS2010, for obvious reasons 20:05:09 which is why I am exhorting you lot to, to fly the flag for the younger generation lispers 20:05:28 all you people who signed up as "YoungLispers" on CLiki years ago: now is the time to stand up and be counted! 20:06:10 Bah, I'd write a paper about my parallel gc for SBCL if it didn't stink so much 20:06:32 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-109-199.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:06:53 if you wrote the paper now, you'd have 4 months to make what you say in it true 20:07:02 heh 20:07:02 hm isn't it funny to think that A Good Many Years Ago next-gen lispers were all sitting in darkened rooms and had never met each other 20:07:04 :D 20:07:16 (I am not kidding, incidentally) 20:07:22 luis: when was that ? 20:07:41 err, lukego 20:07:41 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.3.217] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:07:54 Krystof: do you mean that the paper could describe more of a roadmap? 20:08:13 felix: I mean back before guys like Arthur Lemmens got everybody to meet each other. early 2000's 20:09:48 Arthur and his questionnaire! Remember that? 20:10:25 hey, that was 2004. OK, there must have been earlier stuff 20:10:29 yes I was just thinking of that. plus the first proto-ECLM meeting(s). he did some fine work 20:10:48 what questionnaire ? 20:11:10 http://www.xs4all.nl/~alemmens/alu/ 20:11:30 uk-lispers existed before then 20:12:25 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:12:32 *luis* should organise a Lisp meeting in Lisbon 20:12:50 I mean, Siscog has almost as many Lispers as ITA, I guess. 20:13:06 I can't remember when I met Dan Barlow; I definitely met the Lispworks and Scientia guys while I was still a grad student in Cambridge 20:13:07 How many Lispers does ITA employ? 20:13:29 anyway, the point remains: MORE PAPERS please 20:13:42 minion: chant 20:13:43 MORE PAPERS 20:13:56 how the hell did Dan got into Lisp? I should read his Road to Lisp 20:14:00 that's a man who has had some serious impact 20:14:40 I plan on finishing my thesis this year. Which is about a relocatable allocator, with a prototype in Lisp (but final thing in C). Doubt I'll be done in 4 months only working weekends with it. 20:15:06 luis: You should blog about people who have interest (and count those that do not work at that company.) 20:15:36 luis: you should blog about it to get information about people who have interest (gosh...) 20:15:47 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:15:52 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:15:53 good idea 20:15:56 My mind's not that good at context-switching :-) 20:16:00 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 20:16:08 gabnet [n=gabnet@226.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:35 luis: I suggest not posting in esperanto 20:17:27 heh 20:17:29 wow, "Free The X3J Thirteen" 20:17:55 was dan at sbcl10 btw? 20:18:06 Huh, 2 million people speak esperanto? That's more than I would have figured. :) 20:18:09 lukego: yes 20:18:14 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 20:18:17 yeah, that guy's got a deep voice as hell btw. 20:18:18 how is he? 20:18:24 married 20:18:33 to his compiler? 20:18:34 oh well. he was a good guy 20:18:57 foom: kaj fakte multaj esperantistoj estas ankaux programistoj. 20:19:05 no longer using sbcl-0.8 in production :-) 20:19:11 hahaha 20:19:27 RIP dan_b 20:19:46 Boo, I say. 20:20:03 what does it means output-stream? 20:20:07 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/f5f837f781a007bb?pli=1 is really a fantastic, classic rant 20:20:49 Xach: you might be using the oldest sbcl in production these days 20:21:04 Krystof: Hmm, doesn't seem *too* likely. It's post 1.0. 20:21:16 njm' 20:21:29 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A2D9F.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:21:44 CMUCL just gained an x86 backend in 2004? So what Lisp were people using in 2000? 20:21:52 tic: in 1998 20:22:13 I misunderstood then. Thanks. 20:22:38 still, pretty recent! 20:22:43 lukego: anyway, I can't really argue with not wanting to pull in a dependencie but FWIW CFFI in general introduces less overhead on top of SAPs than SB-ALIEN. 20:22:53 I think it ran on x86/FreeBSD earlier 20:23:01 after Forth it is hard to adapt to the freedom of ordering my functions any way I please 20:23:06 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-48-64.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 20:23:12 1996/7 or so 20:23:53 luis: I'll try cffi one day. I have solved my immediate problem with alien for now though 20:24:06 though - do cffi structs support bitfields? 20:24:08 hey, my name is on Wikipedia 20:24:15 Go Me! 20:25:10 lukego: nope. :( 20:25:17 lukego: there's a bitfield type, you can hack it onto struct slots but you have to do the math yourself. 20:25:30 -!- madsy [n=madsy@ti0207a340-1523.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:25:39 mgr_ [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 20:25:42 also: wow, someone edits the SBCL wikipedia page every month to update the "latest stable release" information 20:26:10 so it's more accurate than sbcl's website? :-) 20:26:48 I bet it's lispm. 20:26:49 hah. No, these days updating the website is almost integrated into my release workflow 20:27:06 ruediger_ [n=quassel@91-115-24-203.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:27:32 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@83.1.168.198] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:27:58 Krystof: http://sourceforge.net/projects/sbcl/ still points to 1.0.30 20:28:10 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:28:16 mathrick [n=mathrick@83.1.168.198] has joined #lisp 20:28:33 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-143-80.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 20:28:47 ITA's wrapper "def-c-struct" macro added bitfield support to allegro's FFI at least 10 years ago...and does the same with SBCL's today. :) 20:29:05 fe[nl]ix: I think it does os/arch sniffing 20:29:12 could ITA be tempted to release that code on lisppaste? :) 20:29:15 for me, it points at the 1.0.34 binary I uploaded 20:29:32 if you're not on x86/linux you'll get offered an older binary 20:29:38 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-178-21.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:30:26 lukego: pretty unlikely. It would take a fair amount of effort to detangle from the rest of the stuff, and there's a lot about it that sucks, also. 20:30:44 Krystof: I get "Download Now! SBCL 1.0.30 sources (3.3 MB)" 20:30:57 for example, on the bitfields topic, it doesn't let you specify the type of the thing underlying the bitfield 20:31:11 fe[nl]ix: it does sound like I could configure something to offer you the .34 sources instead 20:31:13 *Krystof* looks 20:31:16 which at first glance might seem unimportant, but actually isn't. :) 20:31:25 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:31:39 one question, is it fine this for saving an array into a txt file? 20:31:42 (with-open-file (stream "/lispcodes/myarray.txt" :direction :output) (write a :stream output-stream :escape t)) 20:31:46 *Krystof* fights the SourceForge Web 2.0 Interface Of Doom 20:32:06 Krystof: hey, it's an upgrade from the SourceForge Web 1.0 Interface Of Doom they had before, right? 20:32:11 lisperati_boy: it depends on what's in the array. 20:32:49 foom: if by "upgrade" you mean "massively slower and ludicrously even more click-intensive", yes 20:32:52 madsy [n=madsy@ti0207a340-0133.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 20:33:01 lisperati_boy: :readably t will help you by giving an error if an object can't be written readably. 20:33:27 Krystof: I don't know how it could possibly be worse than what they had before...but that made me move everything off of SF, so I have no idea what they have now. :) 20:33:34 you should try it 20:33:55 the "file manager" is hilarious 20:34:42 I don't think I've used sourceforge since that time they nuked SLIME :) 20:34:54 fe[nl]ix: could you try again? 20:35:04 xach 20:35:08 in the array i have this 20:35:09 http://paste.lisp.org/display/93070 20:35:16 for a while, Twisted was just doing all its releases by rsying to the website area. 20:35:31 lukego: if you wan't to share your thoughts about how a bitfield API for defcstruct would look like, that'd be useful. 20:35:32 every couple months, sourceforge would send an email warning about how the website was over quota 20:35:37 *want 20:35:40 foom: Haha 20:35:44 and that any day now, someone would be really mad, for sure. 20:36:09 What do they do now? 20:36:14 moved away? 20:36:14 luis: I was imagining the same as C, but I have no strong opinions 20:36:14 not use sourceforge 20:36:20 :-) 20:37:43 lukego: I suppose optionally converting to t/nil for 1-bit slots would be useful 20:38:52 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:38:55 -!- ruediger_ is now known as ruediger 20:38:59 Krystof: that's interesting: with firefox it's as before, while with Chrome I'm offered sbcl-1.0.34-x86-linux-binary.tar.bz2 20:39:39 felideon [n=user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 20:39:54 yay for more brokenness 20:40:02 C is cool, if you need a close hand on your bits. Like for device drivers. For high level rpogramming it wastes a lot of time. 20:40:49 luis: yea, should be specifiable on each slot. 20:40:51 fe[nl]ix: are you on a linux machine? 20:41:10 yes, Linux x86 20:41:19 Younder: you need to find some new seeds for your markov chain machine 20:41:36 frodef, lol 20:41:43 foom: so (defcstruct foo (x :int :bitfield ) (y :boolean :bitfield 1)) ?etc 20:42:03 he finds me repeditive 20:42:03 was your previous check with firefox? That might have cached something, or sourceforge might lie in its if-modified-since responses, or something 20:42:06 mstevens [n=mstevens@81.2.103.24] has joined #lisp 20:42:30 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:42:41 using :1, :2, :3 to specify the number of bits would interesting, if gross 20:43:11 -!- felideon [n=user@12.228.15.162] has left #lisp 20:45:09 Krystof: I suppose it was caching, now I see sbcl-1.0.34-source.tar.bz2 20:45:16 right-oh 20:45:18 thanks 20:45:22 at least it is offering the right version 20:45:43 luis: and unportable 20:46:03 tcr: is :1 a "potential number" ? 20:46:12 no just not defined 20:46:22 it's one of those nasty token syntaxes, isn't it? 20:46:24 like ::foo 20:46:30 mind you, most implementation do the obvious thing because they take it to mean "invoke Nth restart" 20:46:41 in their debuggers 20:46:44 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-altpqreswzmysvua] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:48:25 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-qjcorlpdddkqrxmy] has joined #lisp 20:49:21 Let's say you have a global foo->bar hash-table, and a global bar->foo hash-table; how would you name the global variables? 20:49:35 luis: no, (y :boolean :bitfield 1) is missing the important information ":int" 20:50:03 -!- saba [n=saba@c213-89-102-144.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:50:48 luis: you need to know 1) the width of the underlying thing you're packing the bits into, 2) the signedness of the integer you're extracting, 3) number of bits, 4) (not available in C) any transformations to do after extracting the number, e.g. 0/1 -> nil/t 20:51:50 harovali1 [n=harovali@r190-135-12-90.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:51:54 -!- alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:51:57 foom: AFAIK bitfields and their members are suppose to be always unsigned 20:52:21 fe[nl]ix: nope, you can certainly have signed bitfield data. 20:52:31 fe[nl]ix: it's good coding practice, but it's not required 20:53:10 -!- harovali [n=harovali@r190-135-35-47.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:53:22 how about (defcstruct tcp-header (flags (:bitfield :uint16) (fin 1 :type :boolean) (rst 1 :type boolean) ...)) 20:53:24 ? 20:53:44 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 20:54:05 I'd find that irritating, since it's not just a list of slots anymore 20:54:16 c 20:54:29 akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.209] has joined #lisp 20:55:10 or (fin :unsigned :size 1 :type boolean) ? 20:55:53 alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 20:55:59 -!- sierinjs is now known as fail 20:56:06 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-48-64.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [] 20:56:07 -!- fail is now known as phail 20:56:41 foom: CFFI needs to know both the total size of the bitfield and the size(and possibly offset) of its members 20:56:47 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 20:57:09 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 20:57:20 I wonder if LDB / DPB would make a nice interface towards SAPs. 20:57:22 fe[nl]ix: the total size of the bitfield is always the size of the underlying type you gave it 20:58:08 fe[nl]ix: e.g. you specify :uint16 -> it's always 2 bytes. A bunch of bits in a row might make *two* :uint16 bitfields, though. 20:58:12 Zenton [n=user@242.Red-79-149-153.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:14 foom: actually, :boolean defines the underlying primitive type. It's :int by default. 20:58:32 foom: do you use threads in your production sbcl apps? 20:58:38 foom: you write(:boolean :uint) as well, for instance 20:58:44 *could write 20:58:50 luis: ah, okay. shows what I know about CFFI, sorry. :) 20:58:58 -!- phail is now known as sierinjs 20:59:36 luis: how much work do you think this would be ? 21:00:20 lukego: kind of. yes in testing, yes in production with non-lisp threads (other linked in C libraries), yes with another product which hasn't reached production yet. 21:00:24 luis: I'm interested in adding support for Erlang-like binary pattern matching 21:00:27 :bits instead of :bitfield would be better. So, we have an API. Now it's a "simple matter of programming". 21:00:46 fe[nl]ix: sounds yummy. 21:00:51 luis: and inline bitfields IIRC is the one major feature lacking 21:01:39 fe[nl]ix: it'd require figuring out the ABIs. I'd expect that to be the most difficult part. 21:02:27 fe[nl]ix: couldn't you implement that in pure Lisp though? 21:02:41 (the binary pattern matching) 21:02:43 luis: yeah. take a look at /usr/include/linux/tcp.h 21:04:13 luis: yes: it's just a foreign-slot-value on the underlying int + ldb + eventually a type conversion if it's using :boolean or such 21:04:45 fe[nl]ix: no I mean, it'd be useful to have that with (unsigned-byte 8) arrays. 21:05:04 (for example) 21:06:00 the two should be separate. you handle the matcher a foreign pointer and it's your job to extract the array's pointer(an pin it if necessary etc...) 21:07:19 why must it be a foreign pointer? 21:07:24 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-178-116.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:07:32 whynot a Lisp array? 21:09:51 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:11 because you can't access efficiently access octet arrays using different type sizes 21:11:51 what if I want to read an :int32 in network order from offset 2? 21:11:52 -!- sierinjs [n=sierinjs@unaffiliated/sierinjs] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:13:49 how about if you use (unsigned-byte 32) or (unsigned-byte 64)? 21:15:30 then you need to do an extra ldb in order to extract an (unsigned-byte 8) and more for (signed-byte 8) 21:16:06 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:16:06 using FFI is the best approach here 21:17:11 (sap-ref-32be (vector-sap vector) 2) 21:17:28 safe vs gc? 21:18:08 (with-pinned-objects (vector) ...) probably? 21:18:14 details, details 21:18:23 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:18:44 I notice cffi has a with-pointer-to-vector-data macro for that. :) 21:18:47 Krystof: that's what I propose, instead of multiple AREFs + combining those bytes 21:19:12 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:19:47 wouldn't an "hton" and "ntoh" function be more sane? 21:20:07 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-143-80.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:20:36 is beach on a longer vacation? 21:21:08 I mean, C doesn't have a big-endian-memory-ref operation, nor do (most?) CPUs. 21:21:18 lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-178-116.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 21:21:33 you get the data first, then smush bytes around so they're in the right order 21:21:53 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:27 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-154-134.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 21:24:03 prxq: he's teaching at the university of Saigon, I think 21:24:40 So the answer would be "Yes". 21:24:47 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:25:03 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:25:04 I suppose so :) 21:25:29 balooga1 [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 21:26:46 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:27:13 fe[nl]ix: do you by chance know if he reads emails while there? 21:27:25 -!- stazich [n=stas@83-47-112.netrun.cytanet.com.cy] has quit [] 21:27:45 prxq: he does 21:28:15 ok thanks 21:28:28 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:31:10 -!- Naglfar [n=Severanc@127.Red-83-63-236.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 21:34:05 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:34:43 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-243-211.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:36:11 gibsonf1 [n=user@c-76-126-33-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:18 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-61-42.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:36:41 Is anyone here using the ZS3 library under SBCL 1.0.34 ? 21:37:46 -!- alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:38:57 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:39:07 adeht [i=death@bzq-84-110-67-187.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:19 Demosthenes [n=demo@204.52.135.62] has joined #lisp 21:40:33 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213.129.230.10] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:42:21 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 21:42:27 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 21:42:49 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:43:38 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439907.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:43:59 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213162066159.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 21:47:13 no 21:47:49 -!- oconnore_ [n=eric@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:49:09 blast_hardcheese, long time no see 21:49:37 what are you doing on this group? 21:50:00 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@250.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:50:52 -!- splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-toogtkiwvjoegmuo] has quit ["ETOOMUCHYOUNDER"] 21:51:13 -!- gabnet [n=gabnet@226.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:52:56 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@107.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:53:47 -!- manituuuu [n=as@orwell.fiit.stuba.sk] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 21:53:57 manituuuu [n=as@orwell.fiit.stuba.sk] has joined #lisp 21:54:12 Is anyone here using ZS3 at all or do you know of anyone that is? 21:54:21 Or CL-S3? 21:54:23 -!- manituuuu [n=as@orwell.fiit.stuba.sk] has quit [Client Quit] 21:54:24 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-154-134.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:55:17 manituuuu [n=plokmijn@orwell.fiit.stuba.sk] has joined #lisp 21:55:33 fe[nl]ix: (sorry, lost my connectivity for a while) as foom pointed out, doesn't C need an extra 'ldb' as well? 21:57:20 luis: if you have an int*, you can cast it to char* then dereference, and AFAIK it has no overhead 21:58:12 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp121-45-34-54.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:58:22 fe[nl]ix: not portably. 21:58:34 If you don't care about portability, it shouldn't be hard to do the same with lisp arrays. 21:58:44 pkhuong: actually, with char* you can. :) 21:59:05 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 21:59:22 foom: is that still true in C89? 21:59:37 89 or 99? 21:59:38 pkhuong: no portably in C ? 21:59:40 Either. 22:00:06 -!- lisperati_boy [n=topo@190.232.44.65] has quit [] 22:00:14 char* is specially allowed 22:00:18 everything else is undefined 22:01:00 jahmarley [n=jahmarle@88.238.38.177] has joined #lisp 22:01:04 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9764.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:01:56 anyway, wrt. CL I do care about portability 22:01:56 foom: I thought that used to be true (char * being the universal pointer), but not anymore. Either way, consequence still undefined with pointer arithmetic. 22:02:05 I must say, the strict aliasing rules in C really bug me. 22:02:15 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 22:02:20 pkhuong: did you mean C99? 22:02:33 foom: what would you change? 22:02:34 (hah, I missed your earlier answer) 22:02:35 It makes things that C has traditionally been really good at (low-level hardware stuff) and makes it all "undefined but almost always works" 22:03:15 which is a terrible source of annoying bugs that look like compiler misbehavior. 22:03:49 the fact that GCC seems to go out of its way to abuse that and silently generate wrong code is what bugs me. 22:03:50 I really liked Forth for low-level stuff. so predictable, so little machinery. 22:04:08 pkhuong: it's not "abusing" it, it's following the letter of the standard 22:04:09 and it's hard to worry about performance after the first time you interactively single-step a device driver :) 22:04:35 foom: it's abusing it, since the pay off is almost nil. 22:04:52 pkhuong: yeah...except in retarded benchmarks that they care a lot about. 22:05:31 lukego: the main thing I dislike about C and C++ is the lack of "deriving Show"-like capability (: 22:05:38 balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 22:05:40 -!- balooga1 [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:06:10 pkhuong: and in Forth you just settled for hex dumps 22:06:21 so everything is showable, but in exactly the same way :) 22:06:52 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:07:50 -!- bipt [i=bpt@cpe-173-095-168-224.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:08:41 recognizing asm() statements as equivalent to simplify branches... that one pissed me off. 22:09:04 ooo, do explain 22:10:16 All the `"#" __FILE_LINE__' lines are there to make the asm different. 22:10:30 pkhoung: btw I think that's the first time someone has explained something to me via a haskell reference. sick :) 22:10:59 pkhuong: you should just say volatile asm (...) 22:11:03 Otherwise, some early version of gcc 4 would just assume that the statements were equivalent... 22:11:12 froydnj: doesn't that add some more constraint on the compiler? 22:11:25 -!- Zenton [n=user@242.Red-79-149-153.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 22:11:38 pkhuong: well, you want those asms to act as scheduling barriers, right? 22:11:54 no, I just don't want it to fold them together 22:12:07 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 22:12:17 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:12:26 fold the asms or the i++s? 22:12:31 seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:41 fold the asms 22:13:05 The goal was to explore the effect of dispatch code like "if (0 == hash(addr)%4) goto *addr; else if (1 == hash(addr)%4) goto *addr; ..." instead of goto *addr;. 22:13:46 The first two versions (computed goto and asm("call ...")) were outsmarted by the compiler. 22:14:17 seems rather unfriendly so do CSE on asms 22:14:18 afk. 22:14:22 indeed. 22:14:49 but volatile would take care of that in your case; I don't think it would adversely affect what you want to do 22:15:07 tricking C compilers is pretty funky stuff. I was trying to port Boehm GC last year and it did all kinds of "volatile" etc contortions that sometimes actually did not work 22:16:12 alternatively, filing a bug and saying "please don't do this" might also work 22:16:28 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:16:48 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 22:17:17 i've seen a post on c.l.l saying they need volunteers for a new scheme spesification, is that a joke? isn't even r6rs compatible implementations like ikarus are still incomplete? 22:17:36 It's not a joke. 22:18:06 I'm looking for volunteers to help me design Perl 7. :) 22:18:17 R6RS is quite controversal. So they decided to make immediately a R7RS that will actually consist in two sublanguages, a small one in the spirit of R5RS, and a big one. 22:18:52 scheme world seems to be in quite bad shape 22:19:21 can't be worse than cl world 22:19:30 I think CL people are having a lot more fun. 22:19:35 right on 22:19:42 stagnancy versus implementation splits. hm 22:20:12 froydnj: seems like we have fun going without moving forward :-) 22:20:14 also, does anybody else use tmux instead of screen? 22:20:29 tcr: "CL: running in place since 1994" 22:20:38 tcr: fwiw CL seems to be moving forward okay, from my time-lapse view. 22:21:06 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 22:21:08 there's lots of stuff going on in CL-land...there's just too many implementations right now. :) 22:21:09 common lisp goes with the evolutive method (since standardization already happened 20 years ago and the next one is not up till 2030) 22:21:13 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:21:37 the infrastructure? perhaps, the language? well, tiny steps 22:21:49 if I win the lottery I'll pay for a new standardization process 22:21:52 so they at last decided not to like r6rs, i see. i think to seperate the spesification into pieces like libraries and core etc was a good choice for their purpose, probably the only good choice in the spec. now deciding on a spec consisting of two sublangs is like feeding the "less is more" addicts by a lie which will eventaully kill the nature of the r5rs spec. 22:21:52 I promise 22:21:54 foom: cmucl seems to have slipped from relevance, so it seems like one less impl to worry about nowadays 22:22:31 fe[nl]ix: how much do you think it'll cost us to have a new standard? 22:22:37 lukego: abcl, there came a new one; and xcl is on its way 22:23:00 guaqua: there's a posting by kmp with some calc. 22:23:23 lukego: it's no longer the most used on x86, but not quite irrelevant 22:23:40 tcr: if you care to search for it, it'd be nice. i know nothing about usenet :( 22:23:54 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:24:15 in the old days I used cmucl and so had quite a barrier to sharing code with people in #lisp. now that feels much less 22:24:19 guaqua: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp (its search ability degraded by orders of magnitudes though since last year, perhaps they fixed it) 22:24:28 guaqua: the order of magnitude of $10^7 22:24:56 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:25:05 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:25:08 guaqua: wishing for standardization misses the point though. That money should be pumped into an open source implementation. 22:25:44 tcr: no doubt about that :) 22:25:52 but it's still an interesting approach 22:25:56 some way to get a common lisp implementation running on android would be nice 22:26:12 madnificent: Didn't someone tell success with ecl? 22:26:34 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:26:50 tcr: IIRC that was with iphone 22:26:58 oh right 22:27:06 tcr: you can likely run it on android, but it would use the hardware layer which they provide, and that doesn't have access to all the services on the phone (afaict) 22:27:14 oh yes, it runs on the iphone 22:28:03 i think it is a good think that a new cl standard will probably be held after some radical changes in computer world. eg graphical user interfaces, the whole gui structure which everyone is used to is probably going to change. a new clim spec which has the new gui characteristics would be brilliant 22:28:34 the next big rush will likely be on the parallel front (too) 22:28:58 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:29:59 ehhh. CLIM is in the scheme of things, basically unimportant. Most new UI development is done using a web browser as the rendering engine 22:30:02 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213162066159.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:30:06 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 22:30:18 -!- gibsonf1 [n=user@c-76-126-33-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:30:30 That which is not is using UI libraries that you cannot hope to duplicate in a CL specific manner (due to lack of manpower) 22:30:31 how unfortunate 22:30:50 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:30:51 francogrex [n=user@72.120-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 22:30:54 is xcl still alive? 22:31:02 Better off just using CL Qt bindings. :) 22:31:37 I guess an abstraction over most of these libraries could be a viable effort 22:31:45 somewhat like CLIM is, but probably less complicated 22:31:49 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:32:38 a well-tested native gui for an open source lisp for multiple platforms would be nice 22:32:51 and a pony 22:32:56 but this would be nice should stop here, sorry 22:33:03 I really don't want a pony 22:33:09 why does everyone always think I do? 22:33:17 foom: i didn't meen the backend which is used to render the screen or etc. i mean the windowing behavior seems to change, the new experimental window systems try to rule out the use of mouse in computers, these kind of things will alter the understanding of gui 22:33:21 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Client Quit] 22:33:28 Xach: friend of mine is in iceland now and could send you a pony. she tells me ponies are cheap there 22:33:34 yes, a pony would be a good thing, it is heavily undervaluated 22:34:03 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:34:16 how about a new lisp-based language for macros in excel. (i hate vba, i feel like i'm talking to a 3 year old) 22:34:26 I have A Round Tuit in my pocket, does that help? :) 22:34:42 Is (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :foo) supposed to work out of the box on Debian w sbcl, or do I need to do something else first? clc:clc-require does work, though. 22:34:52 Yamazaki-kun: it was just recently broken 22:34:56 ah 22:34:57 Demosthenes: i hate excel completely :D 22:35:02 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@81.2.103.24] has quit [] 22:35:07 Yamazaki-kun: but the maintainer says it's not a bug 22:35:13 orly? 22:35:19 http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=560781 22:35:35 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-73-218.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:35:45 jahmarley: its the finest software microsoft ever made. sad eh? 22:36:06 "The latest development snapshot is xcl-0.0.0.290.tar.gz (Nov 23 2009 9:18 am PST). " yes, xcl seems to be still under development 22:36:25 Demosthenes: s/made/copied/ 22:36:25 the newest one builds on x86-64 22:36:48 Yamazaki-kun: feel free to say "me too". :) 22:36:55 O_o Microsoft is america's china software cloning center 22:37:03 madnificent: no, thats CA 22:37:04 Demosthenes: the finest software microsoft ever made was "Microsoft Bob" 22:37:06 :) 22:37:12 screw bob. 22:37:15 just found that one. 22:38:43 Well, I suppose sbclrc can fix that. 22:42:09 Oh, this is nice. asdf:*central-registry* looks rather like code, but (eval asdf:*central-registry*) results in an illegal function call error. 22:42:44 it's a *list* of code, not code. 22:43:11 ah. 22:43:11 (map 'list #'eval asdf:*central-registry*) 22:43:12 yeah. 22:44:10 jahmarley pasted "Clozure CL, McCLIM using CLX backend+Xming on WinXP" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93082 22:45:12 TDT_ [n=dthole@dhcpw80ff976e.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 22:45:36 the problem is that at my first try, it seemed to work, it opened something like a basic paint window, then it halted, after that one, it didn't work again 22:45:55 If I have a vector, #(1 2 3), is there a way to easily create a string of "123" out of that? I could loop through it, but is there a format recipe that'll help? 22:45:56 most of the clx examples work on xming so i think the problem is not related to clx 22:45:57 BTW, if anyone knows what was broken about CLBuild with the non-broken version of CLC... 22:47:43 TDT: (map 'string #'digit-char ze-vector) 22:48:37 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:48:44 adeht: Yeah, that makes sense, a little more complicated than i was hoping, but that'll work better than what I thought originally - thanks 22:49:11 what were you hoping for/ 22:50:38 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 22:50:54 something a little more agnostic to handle all vectors, both strings and digits. 22:51:13 btw who gets the credit for restartable frames in sbcl? that is really nice 22:51:17 So say we had a vector #(123 "foo" 5), to return "123foo5" 22:52:42 TDT: (out (:s ze-vector :separator "")) 22:52:57 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:52:59 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-80.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:53:04 http://github.com/death/constantia/blob/master/out.lisp <- hack 22:53:58 heh, interseting, I'll definitely take a look at this. Thanks 22:56:32 -!- TDT_ [n=dthole@dhcpw80ff976e.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit ["mtg over"] 22:56:47 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:56:51 well, a cons in .sbclrc does fix things. Annoying, but not as annyoing as being out sick all week due to whatever the virus going around is. 22:57:34 what was the travel site ita provides flight search for? 22:57:57 rumour is the question is which one they don't provide the flight search for.. 22:58:12 guaqua: lots of them, http://itasoftware.com/about_us/customers.html 22:58:15 oh, okay :) 22:58:26 those are all the public ones 22:59:21 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 22:59:22 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:00:21 in private, they also find cia rendition fares! 23:00:31 ok, that is false 23:00:46 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:02:44 So just as an experiment, I decided to setf a bunch of docstrings to nil and run a GC in sbcl, then see what it did to the core size. It added 3MB. 23:02:58 nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:16 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:05:16 -!- jahmarley [n=jahmarle@88.238.38.177] has left #lisp 23:07:07 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:10:44 plage [n=user@118.68.196.12] has joined #lisp 23:11:11 Good morning! 23:11:29 adeht: I trying your out macro thing and I get: The function APPENDF is undefined. 23:11:31 good morning, vietnam! 23:11:42 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-73-218.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 23:11:49 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f050228106.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:12:00 HMMM 23:13:22 hello plage 23:13:24 francogrex: well, the .asd does contain an alexandria dependency 23:13:43 and constantia package uses alexandria 23:13:50 I have this: 23:13:51 (defun z (x) (list x)) 23:13:54 but what I really want is 23:13:55 oconnore_ [n=eric@c-66-31-124-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:59 (z 'x) to give me ('x) 23:14:03 how can I do this? 23:14:18 adeht: oh ok then I didn"t realize, sorry 23:14:31 Hergonan: 'x is just a shorthand for (quote x) 23:14:54 yeah 23:14:58 dnolen_ [n=dnolen@pool-71-247-105-237.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:21 if I do 23:15:23 (defun z (x) (list (quote x))) 23:15:33 -!- konr [n=user@189.98.234.110] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:15:41 it does it too literally 23:15:55 Hergonan: if you want it to give you ('x) you want it to give you ((quote x)) 23:16:00 how can I force a tab in a lisp file (emacs) 23:16:10 konr [n=user@189.98.234.110] has joined #lisp 23:16:32 Guthur: C-q 23:16:51 adeht: great, thanks 23:17:06 hmm 23:17:39 (defun z (x) '('x)) 23:17:40 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f75438a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:17:52 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 23:18:03 ? maybe not sure 23:18:18 (z 'y) gives me ('x) 23:18:21 no forget it 23:18:35 true, my fault 23:19:40 (defun z (x) (list (list 'quote x))) 23:19:43 `(',x) or (list (list 'quote x)) 23:20:12 plage's works! 23:20:12 thanks 23:20:24 Hergonan: but do you understand why it works/ 23:20:59 I think so, it takes (quote x) (where x is y) into the list func 23:22:21 yeah :p 23:24:50 jmbr__ [n=jmbr@87.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 23:26:54 Hergonan: Not really. When you say (z 'y) the symbol y (not 'y) is passed to the z function. The z function then creates a list of a single element, namely a list containing two symbols, the symbol quote and the symbol y. 23:27:22 Hergonan: The printer feels that it is best to render that result as ('y). 23:28:05 ah, I see 23:28:45 thanks 23:28:55 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:29:12 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-78-35-197-122.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:30:58 sepult [n=user@xdsl-78-35-197-122.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:31:59 -!- francogrex [n=user@72.120-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:32:26 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:32:26 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 23:33:41 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-78-35-197-122.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:33:59 -!- nullman [n=nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:35:42 balooga1 [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 23:36:07 sepult [n=user@xdsl-78-35-197-122.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:37:01 benny [n=benny@i577A87D6.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:37:51 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-105.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 23:40:05 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@250.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:43:02 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 23:46:48 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:49:07 PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 23:53:58 -!- PatrickMcLaren [n=Patrick@CPE-138-217-214-253.lns1.fli.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Client Quit] 23:54:33 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229160186.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 23:54:41 -!- oconnore_ [n=eric@c-66-31-124-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:58:51 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-71-247-105-237.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit []