00:02:08 -!- cephalopod [i=42a1d3ae@gateway/web/freenode/x-zxfpptwqadskjojn] has quit ["Page closed"] 00:04:13 brandelune [n=suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:12:57 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@99.54.133.197] has joined #lisp 00:13:54 when defining methods, there's no way to say "this method belongs to that class", right? 00:14:50 -!- dys`` is now known as dys 00:15:52 chiiph: methods don't belong to classes 00:16:08 chiiph: read http://gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html and http://gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-classes.html 00:16:53 -!- eric_oconnor [n=eric@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:16:58 chiiph: You could put a function in a slot 00:17:02 fe[nl]ix: well... they do, at least in the OOP world... 00:17:38 chiiph: nope, and there's no such thing as OOP world 00:18:11 chiiph: You have a very limited idea of what OOP is. 00:18:18 fe[nl]ix: are you serious? so... what? every language defines its own interpretation of everything? 00:18:25 plage: how so? 00:19:14 chiiph: Because you assume arbitrary restrictions such as simple dispatch, and the confusion between abstraction and encapsulation. 00:20:10 plage: well, there's no encapsulation concept in clos as it seems... 00:21:06 chiiph: Sure there is. The package system plays that role, and it's a mechanism that is orthogonal to that of classes, so strictly more powerful than a system in which the two roles are played by the same mechanism. 00:21:11 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-47-122.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:22:05 plage: I see what you mean, but that isn't OOP... that's just how Lisp handles this... 00:22:27 chiiph: No, that's OOP without the restrictions of lesser langauges. 00:22:39 OOP does not mandate encapsulation anyway 00:23:17 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:09 chiiph: But you can call it what you want. With your terminology, you would like to get away from OOP (with its arbitrary restrictions) as soon as possible for something more powerful. 00:24:11 plage: hehe, I'm not interested in language-war... I'm coming from C++, Python... so, that's the world I'm living in, and I'm trying to port myself to all this... 00:26:03 chiiph what did you want to achieve? 00:26:12 chiiph: It's not about language wars. It's about assigning terminology (such as OOP) so something having arbitrary restrictions, and then believing that the mechanism is good without thinking about the arbitrary restrictions it implies. And the step is then very small to consider good generalizations as "not OOP", and therefore "bad" and wishing for those restrictions. 00:26:22 There probably is a nice way to do 00:27:02 Guthur: the problem I'm trying to solve doesn't matter, I'm just learning the language... 00:27:42 plage: I don't think it's bad... I'm just used to other languages, and the only way I know of how to approach a new technology is to think it in terms of the other one... 00:28:02 plage: that's my "reflex"... not a tactic I choose rationally... 00:28:09 "I invented the term Object-Oriented, and I can tell you I did not have C++ in mind." -- Alan Kay 00:28:14 chiiph I was just curious why you wanted the method to 'belong' to the class 00:28:28 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 00:28:53 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:28:57 Guthur: just because everything OO I did, you define a class, and then say "this method is from this class, and this one too"... 00:29:08 Guthur: I'm not trying to accomplish something in particular... 00:29:42 chiiph: read those two pages and you'll understand more 00:30:00 fe[nl]ix: yep, I'm on it... 00:30:57 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:31:02 chiiph: I wasn't referring to you specifically. I just explained a general trend. And your wishing for an arbitrary restriction in CLOS that you have seen from other languages indicated potential danger, so I pointed it out to you. 00:32:09 plage: yes, it's ok... I have those schemas in my head, I'm comming from years of programming in a way... it's complicated to ignore that and learn the same things again differently... 00:32:33 oconnore_ [n=eric@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:17 so... in terms of encapsulation I have to focus on packages, and in terms of abstraction I have to focus on classes... ok... 00:33:59 Yep. 00:34:32 ok... I'll keep reading... you'll be hearing from me a lot this month :P 00:34:36 chiiph: Even better, for abstractions, focus on what we call the protocols, which are collections of generic functions. 00:35:01 chiiph: In fact, in CLOS, classes play mostly the role of code factoring. 00:35:21 plage: hmm... I've never read about those... I have a lot to read first :) 00:35:27 those=protocols 00:35:49 chiiph: They are not linguistic features of Lisp, but they exist nevertheless. 00:35:59 minion: tell chiiph about Keene! 00:36:00 chiiph: have a look at Keene: "Object-Oriented Programming in Common Lisp: A Programmer's Guide to CLOS" by Sonya E Keene. http://www.cliki.net/Keene 00:39:27 chiiph: If you want a brilliant example of OO in Lisp, read the CLIM specification. 00:41:00 minion: Tell chiiph about CLIM. 00:41:01 chiiph: direct your attention towards CLIM: The Common Lisp Interface Manager (CLIM) is a powerful Lisp-based programming interface that provides a layered set of portable facilities for constructing user interfaces. http://www.cliki.net/CLIM 00:49:14 -!- ben_m [n=ben@chello084113058207.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:01:51 plage: yes, I'm reading Keene... 01:02:01 djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:55 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:03:19 plage` [n=user@117.3.4.61] has joined #lisp 01:03:35 -!- plage [n=user@203.113.164.206] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:03:40 -!- plage` is now known as plage 01:03:42 choiday [n=user@221.165.250.60] has joined #lisp 01:06:26 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:18:13 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:46 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:23:12 "Perhaps the biggest difference between a generic function-based system and a message-passing system is that methods don't belong to classes" :D 01:27:26 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@e179124152.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 01:28:19 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 01:30:04 can the order of evaluation of the class slots initform be guaranteed, does it happen in the order the slots appear in the definition 01:31:10 no & maybe 01:33:04 You know I had a feeling the answer would something like that 01:33:44 After a little more thought I don't think it's such a great idea 01:34:42 excellent 01:35:20 manuel__ [n=manuel@pD9E6D971.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:04 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D971.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:47:28 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:47:58 Guthur: you can ensure it with initialize-instance, I guess 01:48:49 p_l Ya, to be honest it was a ridiculous idea, hehe 01:49:21 and as it transpired initialize-instance was a necessity 01:57:16 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 01:58:20 -!- timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:04:42 *p_l* tries to compile&load Garnet 02:04:50 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-47-122.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 02:05:49 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 02:06:23 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-122-87.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:09 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:11:27 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:11:59 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:15:07 Jasko [n=tjasko@174.59.195.12] has joined #lisp 02:17:01 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 02:19:34 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-116-117.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:20:08 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:20:08 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-108-52.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:23:23 c|mell [n=cmell@113.53.57.164] has joined #lisp 02:28:02 marioxcc [n=user@200.77.69.127] has joined #lisp 02:29:13 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:30 ... it generated ~5.3M of compile logs in my Emacs buffer o_O 02:38:48 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-108-52.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 02:40:13 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:00 slyrus [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 02:44:28 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #lisp 02:47:19 -!- eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has left #lisp 02:48:24 pjb [n=t@248.Red-79-149-157.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:58 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [] 02:50:10 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 02:54:52 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@113.53.57.164] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:55:45 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.156.187.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:55:58 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:57:12 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:59:04 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-092-075-036-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:47 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-092-075-036-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 03:01:16 -!- kwinz3 [i=kwinz@213142121192.public.telering.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:02:26 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439888.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 03:10:47 -!- MaTThewP [n=Rachu@cpe-24-95-54-134.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:12:37 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:15:34 -!- plage [n=user@117.3.4.61] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:15:53 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.124.207.20] has joined #lisp 03:22:42 -!- davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:26:36 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.215.111] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 03:28:01 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.156.187.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 03:28:11 davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:22 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 03:30:32 wakeup^ [n=wakeup@koln-5d81abeb.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:59 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d816469.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:33:32 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@pD9E6D971.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 03:38:26 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 03:38:31 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:38:47 lacedaemon [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-108-221.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:42:13 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 03:43:28 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-132-233.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:46:28 -!- choiday [n=user@221.165.250.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:52:20 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:52:25 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:57:30 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 04:01:21 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:18 dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f735ec1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:23 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:42 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:03:08 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D971.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:21 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 04:06:56 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:09:08 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 04:10:16 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:11:05 plage [n=user@123.19.42.210] has joined #lisp 04:11:32 Hello again. 04:14:20 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735275.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [No route to host] 04:15:42 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:19:14 lpolzer__ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-221-057.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:32 -!- plage [n=user@123.19.42.210] has left #lisp 04:23:42 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:26:22 -!- _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit ["ircII EPIC4-2.10.1 -- Are we there yet?"] 04:28:09 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:28:35 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 04:34:11 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [] 04:35:20 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-251-048.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:35:56 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 04:45:59 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 04:51:37 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 04:54:13 -!- davazp [n=user@95.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:56:46 ok... so... I have a package defined in example.lisp, the package is named example... why doesn't (in-package :example) work within the directory where example.lisp is? 04:57:16 chiiph: packages have nothing to do with loading 04:57:52 kpreid: mhm... and how is managed a case like this? 04:57:52 chiiph: you have to create the package (by loading the file containing defpackage, and presumably others as well to have anything useful in it) 04:58:35 kpreid: oks... thanks 04:58:48 -!- nullman [n=nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:00:18 if your 'example' is more than one file then you might want to look into using a system loader such as asdf 05:01:22 kpreid: would calling (load ...) for every package I want to use cause me problems in the future? 05:01:39 chiiph: no. 05:01:42 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@c-67-169-77-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:44 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.156.187.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 05:01:48 don't call that a package, you'll confuse people, if not yourself 05:01:59 chiiph: what you could do is to put all your defpackage forms in a single packages.lisp file and load just this file. 05:02:07 packages are data structures, systems are collections of code 05:03:24 hmm... then I don't think I need a package... I'll a couple of classes, that I want to organize in different files... I guess I could just do (load file) without any package defined... right? 05:04:02 chiiph: usually I have one package, and several files beginning with (in-package :that-package) 05:04:18 Then I load first packages.lisp, and then I can load any other file. 05:05:24 It is also possible not to put any in-package form in your files, then their definitions will be read in the *package* current when you load them. 05:05:57 (load "packages.lisp") (in-package :example) (load "other-file.lisp") ... 05:06:06 pjb: ok, but in my case, each file is a whole by itself... so, if I just use (load file) for every one of them, I'll have everything I need... and organize too.. 05:06:37 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-67-109-95.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:06:41 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.156.187.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 05:07:30 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 05:07:37 It's possible to do it that way too. Having one defpackage and in-package form in each file. 05:08:43 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D971.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 05:08:59 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:10:05 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 05:10:45 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 05:11:14 is anyone here aware of a way to generate excel spreadsheets from lisp? 05:11:33 hmm is it right that even if I don't :export some of the generic functions and methods I can still use them from the "outside"? 05:12:00 Demosthenes: I remember doing that with php, but you can port it to lisp easely... 05:12:20 chiiph: with php?! 05:12:32 i figured i'd need a commercial lisp... 05:13:04 Demosthenes: well... you can't do a lot of fancy stuff...but you can still generate a nice excel file... 05:13:16 chiiph: indeed. 05:13:32 chiiph: there's no artificial barriers in lisp. 05:13:40 pjb: then why use :export? 05:13:55 chiiph: you can access any symbol in any package with the package::symbol syntax. 05:14:22 chiiph: :export is a documentation thingy that says that these symbols constitute the public interface to the package. 05:14:40 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.77.69.127] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:14:43 pjb: oh... I see... thanks... 05:15:09 You can access the exported symbols with the package:symbol syntax, and they're imported when you use that package, eg. with use-package. 05:16:01 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:16:10 chiiph: are you reading PCL? It's explained there. 05:16:21 minion: tell chiiph about PCL 05:16:22 chiiph: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 05:16:38 Demosthenes: for Excel export, I recommend Excel 2003's XML format, works quite fine with simple (format *excel-file* "...." ...) :-) 05:16:52 pjb: yes... 05:17:13 Demosthenes: you can also try the new OpenXML thing from Office 2007 05:18:42 *p_l* used to print XML for Excel from Python, so that HR would think they've got the form they required :> 05:18:46 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:20:26 damned form didn't even fit reality 05:22:34 derefed [n=derefed@cpe-74-65-181-129.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:22:41 c|mell [n=cmell@118.173.17.252.adsl.dynamic.totbb.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:16 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:45:57 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 05:52:44 kencausey [n=ken@67.15.6.88] has joined #lisp 05:58:56 slyrus [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 06:07:33 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@118.173.17.252.adsl.dynamic.totbb.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:07:38 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:08:04 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:10:05 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 06:13:01 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 06:16:01 danlei [n=user@pD9E2E1AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:18:29 jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 06:28:36 I gave tinyurl.com/ybct3cm a try, my first shot is http://gist.github.com/267404. any suggestions/comments/tips? 06:33:25 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-238-240.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:34:25 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.156.187.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 06:45:54 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:45:59 Moin moin! 06:47:24 morgen 07:05:01 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:04 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [] 07:13:20 mathrick pasted "Horrible abuse of #1=?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92908 07:13:35 that's probably bad style, no? 07:14:58 it sure looks unreadable to me 07:15:08 hefner_ [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-102-201.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 07:15:21 and it will do the work twice 07:16:02 and this #L, sheesh 07:16:04 what's that #L btw? 07:16:35 a shorthand syntax for (lambda (!1 !2 ...) ...) 07:16:50 stassats: why twice? 07:17:07 oh 07:17:08 I see 07:17:09 right 07:17:09 ah, i see 07:17:40 stassats: I forgot #1= refers to the sexp itself, not its value 07:17:44 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-108-52.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:18:15 prxq [n=mommer@e179084059.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:18:59 mathrick: and you know that remove-if can return the same sequence, so sort can destruct it? 07:19:43 it's probably safe in this case, but then you can use delete-if too 07:19:44 Where is #L and #1= documented? I've never seen that before... 07:19:55 yes, LIST-DIRECTORY is spec'd to return a fresh list 07:19:57 are * 07:20:12 clhs #n 07:20:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dh.htm 07:20:13 oconnore_: #L is non-standard 07:20:17 oconnore_: #1= is standard, #L is a custom reader macro 07:20:30 clhs #n= 07:20:30 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for #n=. 07:20:35 clhs #= 07:20:35 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dho.htm 07:20:35 -!- hefner_ is now known as hefner 07:20:38 here 07:21:21 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-26-148-146.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 07:21:57 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-27-123.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:22:32 do you guys have any tips on http://gist.github.com/267404? I'm outperformed by clojure (it's about twice as fast). it's a shot at http://tinyurl.com/ybct3cm. most of the time (about 40%) is spend with SLURP ... 07:22:36 *oconnore_* pukes! 07:22:38 but thanks 07:23:28 kwinz3_ [n=kwinz@85.125.182.74] has joined #lisp 07:24:22 (pcall is not strictly neccessary, it's just used in one place and won't make that much of a difference) 07:24:41 s/pmapcar/mapcar 07:26:22 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:28:07 another stupid benchmark 07:28:09 http://omploader.org/vMzR5Ng 07:28:13 :3 07:28:32 well, maybe stupid, but if I can learn something from it ... 07:28:48 besides performance, any tips are aprecciated 07:29:08 (if there are some obvious nonos) 07:31:42 -!- Intensity [i=[9wZk4yy@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:31:55 danlei: using format, with pretty printing especially, might be slow 07:33:51 you might also use nstring-downcase 07:34:07 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.98.83] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:34:12 stassats: ok, *print-pretty* is nil, thanks for the pointers! 07:34:28 (esp. nstring-downcase, wasn't aware of it) 07:36:06 danlei: Have you profiled it? 07:36:10 yes 07:36:23 mostly it spends it's time with slurp 07:36:28 about 40% 07:36:29 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.124.207.20] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:36:42 so maybe it's just an io benchmark :) 07:37:04 Intensity [i=[lRD75M9@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 07:37:10 well, you've got 60% too 07:37:24 and 40% doesn't look like "most" 07:37:45 biggest chunk is what I wanted to say 07:38:05 -!- oconnore_ [n=eric@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 07:38:38 oconnore_ [n=eric@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:02 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-62-53.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:41:50 -!- oconnore_ [n=eric@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 07:41:51 I'll take the format out 07:42:05 oconnore_ [n=eric@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:42:33 I wish there was a way to do fast i/o in lisp... 07:44:00 I suppose you could use the ffi to read directly from the os 07:44:37 would that really be faster?... 07:44:41 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D971.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:44 I was thinking that maybe slurping the files as a whole wasn't a good idea, but I'm not sure about it (not very experienced in performance/benchmarking stuff) 07:45:30 danlei: it's a good idea if it fits in the memory 07:45:42 I haven't played with it yet 07:45:43 stassats: ok, ty 07:46:20 I know that in my numerical analysis class, the fortran versions of projects did i/o much faster 07:46:23 *hefner* wonders how read-sequence interacts with external formats 07:46:54 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-169-101.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:27 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:29 -!- djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:47:38 file-length says the size in bytes, so not quite well in this form 07:47:42 although that was parsing floating points with (read)... perhaps read-sequence is different 07:48:51 danlei: so, it's not good to use it with file-length when you have multibyte characters 07:49:07 stassats: what would you suggest instead? 07:49:58 (the input files I use are ASCII, but anyway ...) 07:50:21 I'm wondering if there's a fast path around all the character encoding bullshit if you use :external-format :latin1 and a simple-base-string 08:03:11 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:21:06 -!- prxq [n=mommer@e179084059.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:21:13 ok, changed the format to (w-o-t-s ...), not that much of a difference though 08:21:59 why not write directly to the file? 08:22:25 because I wanted to reuse that spit function 08:22:48 hm 08:23:12 but I guess you're right 08:24:04 on the other hand, the code keeps getting uglier :) maybe benchmarking is none of my buisiness after all :) 08:24:11 -i 08:24:41 how about sorting a hashmap ... I basically collected it in an alist and sorted it then 08:24:52 is there a more idiomatic approach to taht? 08:25:07 *than that 08:28:57 -!- oconnore_ [n=eric@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:29:57 hjpark [n=user@61.98.73.4] has joined #lisp 08:30:24 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:30:48 hm, writing directly didn't improve timing much 08:31:15 (if at all) 08:32:48 still around 5sec/call 08:33:23 good lord, 5 seconds doing what exactly? 08:34:23 well, that slime profiler just gives me the times for output-directory-distribution 08:35:19 I so sorting+writing two times 08:35:27 how many elements? 08:35:34 a sec 08:36:33 ~50000 08:37:24 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-60-82-254-246-15.adsl.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 08:39:11 -!- hjpark [n=user@61.98.73.4] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:40:18 (or ~100000, because it writes two files, one sorted alphabetically by key, one by distribution, descending) 08:45:58 I guess I'll just leave it as it is ... at last, I can read it. the more I profile and try to optimize, the more messy it gets. anyway, thanks for the pointers. 08:46:15 least 08:51:36 merl15_ [n=merl@80-121-30-195.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 08:55:39 hay #lisp 08:56:27 anyone know a convenient way to describe a wide range of continuous probability distributions, and derive random functions that generate values according to them? 08:58:55 gaussian mixtures, table + single-gaussian sample (e.g. box-muller) 08:59:11 over my head :/ 08:59:33 then learn 08:59:42 that is the goal 09:00:20 ooh, box-muller looks handy. 09:00:59 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.133] has joined #lisp 09:03:40 svaksham [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 09:05:20 -!- svaksham [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit [Client Quit] 09:05:52 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:06:51 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 09:10:49 -!- kwinz3_ [n=kwinz@85.125.182.74] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:14:16 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 09:15:51 joeyadams [n=joey@208.96.182.115] has joined #lisp 09:16:29 -!- joeyadams [n=joey@208.96.182.115] has left #lisp 09:17:21 surgy [n=surgy@ip68-97-220-204.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:30 yo 09:18:04 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2E1AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:20:06 -!- surgy [n=surgy@ip68-97-220-204.ok.ok.cox.net] has left #lisp 09:28:02 Krystof: can you tell me anything more than "learn?" 09:28:43 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:28:57 Krystof: statistics is not very googlable. 09:30:51 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.253.60] has joined #lisp 09:32:52 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D971.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 09:33:34 jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-118-124.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:34:08 "gaussian mixture models" 09:34:35 "alias-rejection method" 09:34:42 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 09:34:52 http://lmgtfy.com/?q=gaussian+mixture+models 09:35:09 I can give you more terms, but I'd need to know a bit more about what you're trying to do 09:35:39 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:35:43 "alias-rejection method" has a grand total of four results 09:36:08 *Ralith* dequotes 09:39:04 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:39:11 Krystof: fundementally, I want to perform random sampling with complex probability distributions. After some thought, I think I can most easily achieve this by somehow combining (I'm guessing this is what gaussian mixture methods is about?) variously transformed/skewed/? normal distributions. 09:40:23 right. (You don't need to skew them in general). The alias and alias-rejection methods are ways of selecting which gaussian to sample from (it's a discrete probability distribution) 09:40:36 but where are you getting your probability distributions from? 09:41:05 if I understand your question correctly, I want to define them manually. 09:41:16 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:43:13 for example, I might want something like .'.'--. 09:43:29 I'm not trying to fit data or anything. 09:44:23 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-90769.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 09:44:24 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:48:55 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:49:12 the ACM charging for academic papers seems fundementally wrong :| 09:52:07 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 09:52:15 you can access it from an affiliated institution, can't you? 09:52:34 not sure what you mean 09:52:51 I'm at univ, but if they've given me access I'm not aware of it 09:54:49 plage [n=user@118.68.196.23] has joined #lisp 09:54:53 Good afternoon! 09:55:02 heya plage 09:58:02 http://prxq.wordpress.com/2006/04/17/the-alias-method/ :-) 09:58:40 oh swee-- 09:58:41 ffffffff 09:58:43 I JUST FOUND THAT. 09:58:49 *Ralith* glares 09:59:23 Krystof: that's discrete only though, right? 09:59:37 Ralith: we had access to acm in my university, though i've never used it 09:59:53 it's pretty neat, but what I really want is to be able to build continuous distributions. 10:01:06 ooh, wait 10:01:16 I think I see what you are suggesting. 10:02:25 to "sum" n unevenly weighted distributions, I select one via the alias-rejection method and then execute a normal random sampling function for that? 10:02:40 "that" being the selected distribution. 10:03:20 okay, sweet, that's a very large part of what I needed. 10:03:42 ;; (classic CMU CL error message: "You're certainly a clever child.":-) 10:03:49 hehe 10:05:11 -!- arnee [n=arnee@a89-182-10-28.net-htp.de] has quit [] 10:07:05 Krystof: what did you mean by "You don't need to skew them in general?" 10:09:23 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 10:16:33 somecodehere [n=ingvar@75.186.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 10:29:06 Ralith: you can approximate any probability distribution to arbitrary accuracy by a suitable mixture of Gaussians 10:29:41 Krystof: a gaussian being the normal distribution? 10:29:49 in some sense or other 10:30:29 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:30:43 Gaussian is another word for Normal in this context 10:30:51 aerique [n=euqirea@rl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 10:30:54 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:31:03 great, that's what I thought 10:31:07 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:31:15 I guess that means the math issue here is solved; thanks! 10:31:23 that was altogether much easier than expected 10:32:11 timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:38:18 koprnicus [n=Shiv@125.18.235.114] has joined #lisp 10:38:20 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has joined #lisp 10:39:23 -!- koprnicus is now known as _sh 10:45:03 arnee [n=arnee@a89-182-10-28.net-htp.de] has joined #lisp 10:45:29 -!- arnee [n=arnee@a89-182-10-28.net-htp.de] has quit [Client Quit] 10:49:29 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:51:12 -!- dys` is now known as dys 10:55:33 joubert [n=joubert@user-0cev80t.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 10:57:55 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.253.60] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:58:57 I'm wondering about the loop keyword. Is there a way to itterate over the values in a p-list? 10:59:27 Or would I have to keep a counter of types? 10:59:45 loop for (key value) on plist by #'cddr 11:00:04 thanks. 11:00:07 loop for (nil value) on plist by #'cddr rather 11:00:47 ... and I should say loop macro, not keyword :) 11:02:39 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:03:46 -!- merl15_ [n=merl@80-121-30-195.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:08:28 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-35-224-14.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:09:37 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-35-224-14.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] 11:11:33 -!- joubert [n=joubert@user-0cev80t.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 11:21:45 kwinz3_ [n=kwinz@85.125.182.74] has joined #lisp 11:22:50 alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 11:27:31 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:28:14 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 11:29:26 I am getting compiletime divide by zeroes 11:29:27 wtf 11:30:06 ah, nvm 11:33:46 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:34:26 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 11:36:18 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:38:12 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:40:01 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:40:11 djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 11:46:25 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 12:01:47 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.196.23] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:01:50 plage [n=user@118.68.196.23] has joined #lisp 12:02:02 This is probably obvious, but I'm sleep-deprived; what's a concise way to do (foo (bar (baz (blah 42)))) given (list #'foo #'bar 'baz $'blah) and 42? 12:02:14 gah, typefail 12:02:24 that's supposed to be a list of only function objects. 12:03:22 (dolist (function functions) (funcall function 42)) 12:03:45 stassats: you may have missed the bit where each is called on the next's return value. 12:03:54 oh right 12:03:57 reverse ;) 12:04:15 schme: you may have missed the bit where each is called on the next's return value. 12:04:18 >_> 12:04:27 Ralith: yes. reverse, store value, call next with that. 12:04:32 is just a simple LOOP away :) 12:04:32 yeah 12:04:35 it is 12:04:41 but I was hoping for something elegant and functional 12:04:53 Ok. 12:04:54 some strange use of reduce, perhaps 12:05:07 Write a recursive function that passes the value along then :P 12:05:13 that is even longer >_> 12:05:24 But it is "elegant and functional" ;) 12:06:04 ooh, I think I know 12:06:06 elegant and functional, that's impossible 12:06:14 Ralith: I think your sleep deprivation is getting in the way of you just writing that LOOP and forgetting about it (: 12:06:14 (reduce :P 12:06:17 er 12:06:18 :P 12:06:23 schme: arguably. 12:07:02 got it! 12:07:08 (reduce (lambda (value function) (funcall function value)) (list #'1+ #'1+) :initial-value 42) 12:07:22 my god. 12:07:30 ^^ 12:07:42 nicolas [n=nicolas@aqu33-5-82-245-96-5.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:53 I guess this is what it comes down to. Some like the LOOP way, some like THAT way :) 12:08:04 heh 12:08:27 -!- nicolas [n=nicolas@aqu33-5-82-245-96-5.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 12:10:21 I think that way's more fun 12:10:30 not necessarily desirable for any other reason, though 12:11:31 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.197.100] has joined #lisp 12:11:50 (defun bar (argument list) (if list (funcall (car list) (bar argument (cdr list))) argument)) 12:12:08 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.197.100] has quit [Client Quit] 12:12:10 this looks more "elegant" to me 12:13:02 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Success] 12:15:03 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 12:15:29 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229110059.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:15:46 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 12:17:40 admittedly cleaner. 12:18:04 perhaps I meant to say 'clever' rather than 'elegant' 12:18:33 clever would be: 44 12:19:17 :P 12:19:19 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:21:46 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has joined #lisp 12:22:38 *plage* is with schme; Just write the loop and get over it. 12:24:45 plage: good day to you. 12:26:48 hello schme 12:26:51 trittweiler [n=rittweil@atradig113.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:27:59 yvdriess [n=Beef@94-224-246-138.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 12:37:22 Ralith: you could use REDUCE for it 12:37:24 -!- norayr [n=noch@81.16.7.146] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:37:43 trittweiler: ...I pasted a solution using reduce :P 12:37:55 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-035-252.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:03 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:38:10 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-035-252.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 12:38:13 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-211-99.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:38:21 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:54 Ralith: that doesn't match your problem description 12:38:58 Ralith: don't you need :from-end t though? 12:39:51 -!- yvdriess [n=Beef@94-224-246-138.access.telenet.be] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:39:57 plage: probably; that's trivially applied. 12:40:07 trittweiler: seems to to me. 12:41:16 (reduce #'funcall fn-list :from-end t :initial-value 42) 12:41:36 which is elegant :-) 12:44:49 konr` [n=user@200.142.139.80] has joined #lisp 12:45:11 -!- konr [n=user@200.142.139.80] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:45:13 nice 12:50:11 vext01 [n=edd@edd-i386.kent.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:51:07 _mathrick [n=mathrick@83.1.168.198] has joined #lisp 12:51:21 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:32 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:52:10 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 12:52:16 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@83.1.168.198] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:52:44 trittweiler: This one I like. 12:53:11 hello, anyone knowledgable with clisp-link? 12:53:26 i am maintaining texlive for OpenBSD and the new version of clisp has changed syntax 12:53:43 not knowing the first thing about lisp is not helping 12:54:14 *schme* looks at clisp-link. Not quite understanding it. 12:54:24 basically it seems 'clisp-link add-module-set' is gone, was hoping someone could suggest how to translate into new syntax 12:54:39 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:55:42 It seems one uses clisp-link add 12:57:47 vext01: if you raise the backwards incompatibility on the mailing list, the authors may be moved to restore add-module-set based on the new infrastructure 12:58:13 vext01: they'll probably at least show you the new way 12:58:44 vext01: not many people in this channel use clisp 12:59:12 even less are familiar with it 12:59:50 schme: there is a comment in the texlive Makefile.in about the args changing also 12:59:54 trittweiler: thanks 13:00:06 what is the main lisp implementation thesedays? 13:01:14 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-127-153.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:01:24 vext01: texlive is a beast, and I use it on OpenBSD. Thanks for your work, it's gotta be tough. ;] 13:01:42 vext01: Most people here use SBCL. 13:02:49 dandersen: texlive is a pain it the ass yes 13:03:05 glad you enjoy using it on openbsd though 13:03:09 :) 13:04:52 vext01: clisp has advantages for a distributor's purposes: it's written in C, hence easily bootstrappable, and portable. 13:05:03 i see 13:05:05 vext01: So I guess it's a good, if not the right, choice 13:06:17 vext01: there's also ECL which is also written in C. ABCL is implemented in Java. 13:08:09 *vext01* shudders 13:08:27 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.196.23] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:08:40 i must admit i have never touched any lisp implementation 13:08:53 i guess I am uncultured 13:08:58 :) 13:10:40 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 13:10:59 There's the zip method in ruby: [1, 2].zip ["foo", "bar"] => [[1, "foo"], [2, "bar"]] 13:11:11 What would be the canonical method to express a similar mapping in CL? 13:11:45 MAP 13:12:34 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 13:12:54 antoszka: (mapcar #'list list1 list2) in this case 13:13:14 vext01: Well you should :-) 13:13:32 vext01: May be a nice idea for the new year 13:13:40 yeh? maybe i will take a look 13:13:52 minion: tell vext01 about pcl 13:13:53 vext01: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 13:14:17 trittweiler: thx 13:14:27 my usual toolchain for programming is C or python. What is your sales pitch? :) 13:14:39 code is data! 13:14:40 :D 13:14:56 i smell philosophy 13:14:57 vext01: Getting better at programming 13:15:06 is lisp functional? 13:15:15 only in so far that "it works" 13:15:23 ok 13:15:36 lisp is largely paradigm-independent. 13:15:52 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 13:15:53 (i work around haskell geeks) 13:16:20 vext01: Lisp is a programmable programming language. With a very nice interactive flow of development. 13:16:33 (yet still compiles down to native code) 13:16:51 oh really, that is interesting 13:17:11 *vext01* adds lisp to his research list 13:17:24 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-35-230-166.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:18:16 vext01: Come back when you have some time at hand, and we'll assist you in setting up your development environment. 13:19:00 is it not packaged? 13:19:28 Unfortunately not. And if, the packaged version is probably very old. 13:19:50 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:19:55 there may be openbsd packages for sbcl 13:20:32 the development environment is called slime; it's an emacs mode. You should get it from cvs. 13:20:45 oh lisp is the brackets language! 13:20:56 yah i remember this 13:21:15 sbcl 1.0.31 13:21:20 it'll become readable after you spent half an hour with it :-) 13:21:44 I'm pretty impressed with ALIEN. 13:22:05 sb-alien? 13:22:23 yeah 13:23:00 I never bothered to look at it in lieu of cffi; does it have advantages? 13:23:11 I haven't looked at cffi :) 13:23:56 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:23:59 I'm just happy that I could very easily link 5 lines of C into my Lisp program, and not have to bother constructing C data structures inline in Lisp 13:24:18 vext01: After you installed that sbcl package, get slime from cvs as described at http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/ 13:24:56 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 13:25:30 trittweiler: ok, its on my list 13:25:44 after all the other stuff that I need to do for work/OpenBSD 13:25:49 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 13:26:05 vext01: sure tell when you have the time. 13:26:35 cffi looks pleasingly polished too now that you mention it 13:27:46 cffi is pretty cool, I have been using it quite a bit recently and have to say I am very impressed 13:28:05 who the hell wrote a 120-page manual for cffi? 13:28:35 lukego: stephen campall did the initial version; once it was there, it was incrementally refined. 13:28:42 hehe also impressive documentation, thought there is a few minor niggles 13:28:45 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:28:54 thought/though 13:29:06 is cffi-grovel usage routine or exotic? 13:29:34 perhaps I got the history somewhat wrong, but I remember stephen having played some major role 13:29:38 I personally haven't tried it yet 13:30:16 It's one of the last things for me to try 13:30:47 I did use swig though 13:30:57 It can generate CFFI bindings 13:32:02 HG` [n=HG@xdslao204.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:32:28 lukego: if you need to grovel C structs and constants, it's very easy to use 13:33:11 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-142-250.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:33:53 trittweiler: is there a switch() statement in lisp? 13:34:00 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-142-250.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:08 vext01: Several 13:34:17 this could be useful for my research 13:34:23 cmm: so are you still writing scary lowlevel windows code, or what's new in tel aviv? 13:35:04 vext01: remember, it's a programmable programming language, so you can add syntax for, e.g. pattern matching, or regexp-based switch etc yourself 13:35:22 (the two mentioned items have already been done, several times in fact) 13:35:48 -!- _sh [n=Shiv@125.18.235.114] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:41:42 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Success] 13:42:18 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.98.83] has joined #lisp 13:42:23 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 13:42:48 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.195.150] has joined #lisp 13:50:39 -!- timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:54:10 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-84-227-215-36.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:58:19 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.133] has quit ["so long.."] 13:59:12 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:59:37 -!- aerique [n=euqirea@rl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 13:59:46 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 13:59:58 lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-84-227-215-36.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 14:02:43 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 14:04:11 dandersen: about? 14:04:52 dandersen: are you running openbsd-current? 14:05:16 pr [n=pr@p579CABFD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:31 lukego: I'm now writing scary embedded linux code at various levels, actually. :) 14:05:54 lukego: TA is still there, all I know :) 14:06:14 cmm: have you moved? 14:06:19 or just inside hacking? :) 14:06:44 lukego: I pass the damn city every day but almost never stop there :) 14:06:50 vext01: Nope, I'm on stable at the moment. Why? 14:07:20 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-37-82-253-12-196.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:10 lukego: come to think about it, two weeks ago I did stop in TA in order to pick up a replacement safety valve for my moka pot. which it turned out I didn't need, the old one was fine, the valve wasn't a problem. in fact I haven't found the problem until I've broken down and bought a whole new moka pot. *then* I realized how to fix the old one. there must be a lesson in all this, but I can't think of any 14:10:47 (sorry about the off-topic) 14:12:41 alien could crush cffi using only one pinky 14:12:49 cmm: not really off-topic. You need to plan to throw away the "prototype" :-) 14:13:03 how so, hef? 14:13:57 hefner: :external-format :latin1 will still have to convert to 32-bit and use four times the memory. I observe :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) being about four time faster too. 14:14:00 alien understands types and is wired into the compiler, cffi doesn't even try (understandably, given its goals) and just uses dumb untyped pointers 14:14:01 (in sbcl). 14:14:11 pjb: thing is, those moka pot contraptions make progressively better coffee as they get older, so the new one is strictly worse as long as the old one functions :) 14:14:16 pjb: even with a simple-base-string? 14:14:57 I didn't try with such a buffer. 14:15:27 (some implementations don't make a difference). 14:15:38 trittweiler: so when should we invade vienna? weekend or midweek better for you? 14:15:57 pjb: I was wondering if SBCL happened to optimize this particular case. It's a reasonable thing to do. 14:16:13 hefner: OTOH, I abandoned sb-alien precisely because it's typed 14:16:22 fe[nl]ix: oh? 14:16:24 hefner: Alien? 14:16:29 antifuchs: how's your schedule? 14:16:45 fe[nl]ix: cramping your style, was it? 14:16:46 lukego: I'll look for the price of train tickets later. Best is if I can get some special offering. 14:16:49 hey there, lukego (: 14:16:51 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:17:06 trittweiler: where do you live? 14:17:16 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 14:17:45 lukego: I'm working regular office hours on weekdays except wednesdays; other than that, I have no special plans in the next few weeks 14:18:28 I'm surprised that Austria is so big. does that mean I've been away from Australia for too long? :) 14:18:29 lukego: munich 14:18:33 hefner: were you referring to sb-alien or something else 14:18:39 it probably does (: 14:18:46 or from any other country (: 14:18:55 looks like it's a flight rather than a train from zurich 14:18:57 Guthur: sb-alien or just plain "alien" (from CMUCL) 14:19:28 I suppose. don't recommend taking a car (: 14:19:36 hefner: could you provide an example of that difference? 14:20:30 I presume then thats not really a portable solution, CFFI is more portable, correct? 14:20:43 hefner: it doesn't handle well the casts from sockaddr_storage to sockaddr_(in|in6|un) and back, or incomplete structs, unions, etc... 14:22:03 lukego: mid of february would fit me best 14:22:37 I hope that's not too distant in future for your taste 14:22:45 13th? 14:23:17 trittweiler: What, regarding alien? At least in theory, you can compile efficient C-style code (with stack or heap allocated objects) that doesn't involve indirection through boxed foreign pointers. In practice, I found it got confusing and I'd rather just use crappy SAPs than figure out what the problem was. :) 14:23:31 lukego: a week later probably, I think I should be finished with exams then 14:24:07 lukego: I /could/ come now in the beginning of january, but my gf would probably frown upon me not taking her with me :-) (and she's going to have exams in two weeks) 14:24:08 ISTR CMUCL/SBCL being able to do some type checking when using sb-alien as intended that you can't get from something like CFFI. 14:24:35 sounds fine to me. far enough in the future that we can maybe solidify plans in a couple of weeks :) 14:25:09 antifuchs: how does lisper meetup and maybe tour of the metalab sound for feb 20th weekend - tentatively speaking? 14:25:26 yeah enough time to get special offers, both for you and me 14:26:19 hefner: also, the problem is that base-char is too restrictive; in most file systems, there are file names outside of base-char... 14:26:56 hefner: now, it seems that read-line takes about half of the time, and converting from the bytes to characters takes a quarter of the time. 14:26:57 pjb: we're talking about text files, not filenames. 14:27:12 (My test file is a ls-lR file...) 14:29:28 Okay, use an (unsigned-byte 8) then. I'm the most fervent advocate of not letting CL implementations meddle when it comes to filenames, because none of them can be trusted to work right. 14:30:02 hefner: I think what needs to be optimized is READ-LINE. 14:30:09 whoever I was chatting with earlier had a file full of plain ASCII, or so I thought, and I wasn't going to suggest he rewrite whatever text parsing on top of a byte array. :) 14:30:22 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439888.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:31:33 ..although that would be an interesting example of optimized CL being worse than C. 14:31:52 with unsigned-byte, sbcl is faster than gcc... 14:31:58 dandersen: there is a clisp update, i was hoping you might test it to see if it all works, but it has to be on -current 14:32:35 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:36 (well, without optimization on either, I should rerun the benchmarks). 14:32:45 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:24 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 14:38:08 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.253.60] has joined #lisp 14:38:45 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:39:29 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:40:11 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:42:09 so Lisp seems to actually be being good to me this time. I blame the maintainers of clbuild. 14:43:22 maybe you could try using a clim app? that might restore your faith in nothing fucking ever working 14:43:44 hola jsnell :) 14:43:57 are you back on dry land yet? 14:44:11 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:44:17 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.253.60] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:44:50 yeah, sbcl10 was fun 14:45:25 ironically I'm not exactly in the mood for a trip to sbcl10 :) 14:45:28 s/not/now/ 14:46:03 Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 14:46:13 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 14:47:37 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:47:56 good to see you're back in lisp land. instant startup credibility in telecoms, unlike that erlang crap 14:49:04 Lisp is currently a procrastinative outlet when I should be hacking C :) 14:50:05 and I am fighting off some kind of flu at the moment so I may aswell spend my epsilon productivity in the most pleasing environment :) 14:56:41 lukego: 20th itself is ok for me - there's a party scheduled for the 21st though 14:56:42 jsnell should come too to vienna 14:56:55 he should! 14:56:57 what day is the 20th? 14:57:02 sat'dy 14:57:03 it's a saturday 14:58:39 is ELS the next eurolisp event btw? 14:59:29 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:01:13 http://planet.lisp.org/meetings/ 15:02:36 unfortunately I'm probably going to be in NY then 15:03:13 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Success] 15:03:23 jetsetting googlers 15:03:34 I hope everyone is writing ELS papers 15:03:40 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 15:05:11 god bless you Mr. Beane 15:08:42 oh, wait. you're obviously talking of february 20th, not january. that might actually work 15:09:38 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslao204.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:13:16 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:14:22 excellent 15:15:13 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:15:14 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-144-122.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:55 almost sounds like we could notify Xach and make it official 15:19:34 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.133] has joined #lisp 15:20:07 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-35-230-166.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:20:21 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:20:32 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:20:40 season's greetings! 15:20:48 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 15:27:30 I'm wondering, what would be the simplest way to convert a quoted simbol into a :symbol? 15:28:03 Something like this?... 15:28:28 (intern (symbol-name 'foo) "KEYWORD") 15:28:30 ? 15:28:58 Any more efficient means? 15:31:15 are you dissatisfied with the performance of this variant? 15:31:18 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:31:53 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 15:32:39 kenanb [n=kenanb@78.172.228.55] has joined #lisp 15:32:45 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.133] has quit ["so long.."] 15:33:10 Well, I was thinking that I would be, but then I realised this would happen in macro-expansion time, so I think it should work fine. 15:33:47 find-symbol might be better, if its already interned 15:33:51 it's 15:42:24 -!- somecodehere [n=ingvar@75.186.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:46:41 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:50:35 -!- kenanb [n=kenanb@78.172.228.55] has left #lisp 15:51:53 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [] 15:52:32 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 15:53:14 Thanks stassats 15:53:32 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:53:46 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 15:54:34 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Success] 15:55:07 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:55:14 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 16:00:33 jtza8: if it's a concern at macro-expansion time, you're doing something wrong 16:02:41 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c156-35.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:04:09 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:04:15 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735ec1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:04:45 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735ec1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:23 mathrick: It's not, it could have been at run-time though 16:06:33 I said I thought it was NOT in macro-expansion time, though, I probably could have phrased that better :) 16:08:10 jtza8: yeah, I was just reinforcing the notion that caring about INTERN's performance at macro-expansion time is Doing It Wrong :) 16:12:16 mathrick: but it can have an environmental impact, by optimizing your macros you can prevent global warming 16:13:58 global warming is rather dubious a proposition 16:14:11 quite like INTERN's performance impact 16:14:33 INTERN does have a substantial performance impact 16:14:52 on macros? 16:15:08 trittweiler: btw, what happened to tcr? 16:15:26 other machine 16:18:54 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735ec1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:19:24 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735ec1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:28 *hefner* can't imagine when you'd care about the performance of INTERN 16:26:22 oconnore_ [n=eric@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:31 Maybe when you're using it a lot. :) 16:29:34 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-41-30.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:31:01 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 16:31:06 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735ec1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:32:56 hefner: I think implementations do 16:33:12 that's their problem! :) 16:34:21 in Lisp, the lines between user and implementator are blurry ;) 16:38:56 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:42:08 mathrick: Right :) 16:42:21 Infamous_Cow [n=Chris@c-71-234-3-143.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:18 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 16:46:42 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:50:49 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:53:39 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:54:25 ejs [n=eugen@92.49.233.6] has joined #lisp 16:58:34 slash_ [n=unknown@p5DD1D23F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:47 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:59:36 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:00:17 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:01:33 -!- tvaalen [n=tvaal@terminal.se] has quit ["leaving"] 17:08:29 rvirding [n=chatzill@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 17:11:43 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:06 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.98.83] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:33:31 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:23 pkhuong: a random-state question for you 17:37:10 is it fair to say that a given rng will usually construct "natively" either an integer of some width, or a float of some size 17:38:24 -!- Infamous_Cow [n=Chris@c-71-234-3-143.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:39:30 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-35-224-33.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 17:42:02 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:42:10 marioxcc [n=user@200.77.69.127] has joined #lisp 17:47:09 -!- konr` is now known as konr 17:48:35 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:50:05 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-57-17.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:51:24 Krystof: some construct an integer in (mod some-value). 17:51:52 That's easily mapped to floats; for unbiased 2^k, you probably have to do go with some accept reject. 17:52:26 bleah 17:52:34 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 17:52:54 so I can't really see what an efficient protocol looks like, then 17:53:16 if the native operations of rngs are so different 17:53:41 Well, I have to go, but I'd love to read your thoughts and what issues you see in my backlog (: 17:53:42 or rather I can't see a way that means that the implementor doesn't have to write all the methods 17:54:06 rather than the system seeing what customized methods exist and doing the right thing 17:54:19 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-90769.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:55:49 Krystof: an abstract base class and implementations with defaults for float-rng, bit-width-rng and modular-rng? 17:55:59 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit ["Client Quit"] 17:56:34 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@adsl-84-227-215-36.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 17:59:04 yeah, maybe 18:02:22 -!- slash_ [n=unknown@p5DD1D23F.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 18:03:19 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-47-122.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:04:50 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-84-227-215-36.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:04:51 -!- lukego_ is now known as lukego 18:05:11 nullman [n=nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:39 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:06:47 I didn't know rvirding hangs out in #lisp 18:09:14 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:26:15 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:27:12 tvaal [n=tvaal@unaffiliated/tvaal] has joined #lisp 18:27:29 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 18:28:05 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:28:42 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:29:25 rvirding [n=chatzill@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 18:30:43 hi rvirding, fancy meeting you here :) 18:31:40 lukego: what's a nice guy like you doing in a place like this? 18:32:06 I occasionally try to keep abrest of the lisp world 18:32:28 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:32:50 *luis* stares at rvirding 18:33:01 ?? 18:33:43 -!- xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has quit ["ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"] 18:34:57 luis: have you committed yesterday's changes yet ? 18:35:23 fe[nl]ix: working on it 18:36:18 rvirding: likewise I'm catching up on what's been happening in CL land :) 18:36:53 fe[nl]ix: I think we should set the pathname slot in every case, i.e. make it reflect whatever we passed to %load-foreign-library 18:36:58 lukego: what are you working with now? 18:37:40 fe[nl]ix: an perhaps call it PATH or something since it's usually a string, is it not? 18:38:01 *rvirding* says I must go eat now 18:38:42 luis: load-path ? 18:39:17 that'd work too. Do you prefer that? 18:39:36 loaded-path? 18:40:00 ugly 18:40:24 xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 18:40:24 -!- xristos is now known as Guest76822 18:45:43 kenanb [n=kenanb@78.172.228.55] has joined #lisp 18:47:45 ejs1 [n=eugen@92.49.233.6] has joined #lisp 18:48:14 -!- tic [n=tic@83.249.193.189] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:48:50 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.233.6] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:51:18 -!- tvaal [n=tvaal@unaffiliated/tvaal] has quit ["leaving"] 18:52:35 joubert [n=joubert@user-0cev80t.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 18:52:44 tic [n=tic@c83-249-193-189.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:57:04 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:57:07 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:00:25 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:34 djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:18 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["restart"] 19:08:56 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-26-148-146.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:10:58 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:16:40 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:19:13 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:19:49 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:20:21 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@92.49.233.6] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:20:26 -!- kenanb [n=kenanb@78.172.228.55] has left #lisp 19:23:26 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-13-23.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:27:54 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:28:26 I like the "new" handling of *SLIME Compilation*, showing all the messages in a buffer 19:29:09 lukego: I could use a new and improved class browser, k thx. 19:29:42 *lukego* doesn't use classes. can never remember why, but always switch back to defstruct. 19:29:45 luis +1 19:30:03 something like Allegro's trace dialog would be useful as well 19:34:06 HG` [n=HG@xdslfy074.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:34:37 being able to update a class and have its instances reflect the changes is pretty useful in development 19:34:46 I've been making good use of that lately 19:36:32 lukego: make sure you have (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf)) in your .emacs 19:37:33 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:11 luis: I'd like to read a blog posting about that! Like lukego, I rather use structs, and just re-setup my world on layout changes. 19:38:18 luis: Are you working on big data? 19:38:52 slime-asdf huh? 19:39:44 lukego: Yeah it got some really cool stuff, like M-x slime-query-replace-system which runs query-replace on each file defined in a system 19:40:23 lukego: Also checkout M-? (slime-edit-uses) the logical counterpart to M-. :-) 19:40:41 timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:40:48 sounds like I need to read the manual :) 19:41:32 wow someone even figured out how to get a cover bitmap into a texinfo manual :) 19:42:13 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:42:31 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 19:43:01 lukego: Some stuff isn't in the manual. Did you see how autodoc now also copes with nested arglists and &key parameters? 19:43:31 jee [n=jee@117.204.1.139] has joined #lisp 19:44:47 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 19:45:00 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-27-123.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:45:21 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:47:50 I have 3 lists of the form ((accessor object) (accessor2 object) (accessor3 object)), and I want to loop in the three of them with do... I'm doing this http://dpaste.com/140266/ 19:47:55 and I get <: (V1 VEC) is not a real number 19:48:09 can someone give a hand with this? :) 19:48:18 lisppaste, url 19:48:18 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 19:48:27 (for future reference. Don't repaste now) 19:48:42 -!- jee [n=jee@117.204.1.139] has left #lisp 19:48:50 Adlai: I'm using dpaste... is there any difference? 19:49:18 lisppaste announces in the channel and has syntax highlighting 19:49:45 oh well... ok... 19:49:59 as for your method -- (first v) is '(v1 vec), literally. 19:50:11 maybe explain what you're trying to do... 19:50:40 chiiph: what text are you using to learn lisp? 19:51:05 well... I thought it was self explanaitory... just loop through the three lists and do some checks in every element of them... 19:51:27 drewc: PCL, CL a gentle approach, CLOS by Keene... etc etc 19:51:55 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:52:07 chiiph: ummm... no.. which one are you using? if you are trying to read them all, you're not using any of them... 19:52:41 one of them should be your primary source, and it should be the one that teaches you what QUOTE (aka ') does ;) 19:53:35 drewc: hehe... yes, well... the first attempt to do this was without quoting... but for some reason it gives an error about the lists needing to be a lambda expr... 19:53:46 chiiph: what is the value of (let* ((foo 1)(list '(foo 1))) (car list))? 19:53:47 *pkhuong* wonders if there's a pre-written library for things like . CPP-STL? (: 19:54:55 Younder [n=jthing@233.159.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:54:58 pkhuong: code reuse isn't the subject here :) 19:55:12 chiiph: also, which of these texts teaches DO as the primary iteration contruct? most lispers i know use LOOP at least. 19:55:40 drewc: hmmm... CL a gentle approach... I'll take a look at loop 19:55:41 do* is clearly the primary iteration construct 19:55:49 Steele's code is very DO'ey. 19:56:18 so? who should I listen? hehe... 19:56:19 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-193-189.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:56:51 me 19:56:53 chiiph: ahh yes, gentle just might be DO'ey. It's not an issue really, just that loop is somewhat easier to read (imo) then DO 19:56:55 everyone else is wrong 19:57:11 hard to fault that logic. 19:57:17 hehe... 19:57:36 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 19:57:39 if I don't quote the lists I get SYSTEM::%EXPAND-FORM: (V1 VEC) should be a lambda expression 19:58:26 I don't mind about do or loop now... what's wrong about this? 19:58:36 chiiph: what do you mean by 'don't quote the lists' exactly? 19:58:48 drewc: He removed the ' 19:59:08 hey! trittweiler knocked me out of place #2 on the slime contributors list in the CVS version :) 19:59:14 what trittweiler said... 19:59:29 lukego: slacker 19:59:38 overachiever :) 19:59:46 chiiph: you need to back up in gentle, learn about lisp evaluation rules. 20:00:58 drewc: RTFM doesn't help me right now :) ... but thanks anyway... 20:01:44 chiiph: (do ((v f1 f2) ...) ...) ...), F1 is a form i.e. is evaluated 20:01:54 chiiph: lisp helps those who help themselves... it's either point you in the right direction or ignore you.. i thought the former was the better choice :P 20:03:04 chiiph: you're code is unidiomatic on many levels, so drewc's "try harder" is appropriate; and you still didn't answer adlai's initial question what you're trying to do 20:03:10 your* 20:04:52 is there an errno-to-string hiding in sb-alien somewhere? 20:05:02 trittweiler: I don't get what you don't understand about that method... I'm just trying to make that work... that's all... there's an error there, evidently it doesn't matter that I have try to figure it out, I just thought "hmm may be it's something really stupid, and someone can point me where I did wrong and I don't have to loose more time on this simple thing..." 20:05:48 Did you say what your method is supposed to do? My guess is that you want (map 'vector #'alexandria:clamp vector max-vector min-vector) 20:06:09 but... it's ok... when I have some trouble with something REALLY complex, and I have evidence that I have been trying to work it out for days... I'll come here for help :) 20:06:30 trittweiler: something like that... but the problem is more generic than that 20:07:04 it's not a matter of the semantics of the method, but of how I'm using "do" the wrong way... 20:08:45 chiiph: PCL is a good reference when you are starting out 20:08:45 chiiph: no... it's how you are using lisp the wrong way by misunderstanding how it works and putting QUOTE's where they don't belong. you've been told a few times what is wrong, but since you don't know enough lisp , you've ignored the answers. 20:08:58 PCL = practical common lisp 20:09:15 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-79-117-96.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:09:28 do is covered here -> http://gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-standard-control-constructs.html 20:10:08 chiiph: What made you put a quote there? 20:10:30 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:10:48 trittweiler: "if I don't quote the lists I get SYSTEM::%EXPAND-FORM: (V1 VEC) 20:10:48 should be a lambda expression" 20:11:10 ok ok ok ok ok ok... I get it... RTFM... sorry to buther... 20:11:30 no, don't read. UNDERSTAND 20:11:35 anyone have a nice shorthand for (declare (ignore foo)) ? 20:12:20 lukego: use *, **, *** 20:12:28 (semi-serious) 20:12:31 lukego: sure... muffle style warnings :) 20:13:05 trittweiler: i don't know if i should laugh or cry, but that's brilliant! 20:13:09 drewc: I'm sure it will come to that eventually, but not quite yet :) 20:13:14 trittweiler: glad I asked :) 20:13:55 similarly I could (defparameter _ nil) I 'spose, but * is close enough 20:14:02 lukego: the serious answer is to write out the declaration however tedious it is 20:14:14 lukego: it'll bite you 20:14:19 nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:36 smanek [n=smanek@adsl-71-147-48-251.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:40 +1 trittweiler 20:14:45 say you land in the debugger, go back to your slime-repl, and want to make use of * 20:15:21 but why not use another random 1-letter special variable? 20:15:34 *_*? 20:15:40 just _ 20:16:39 it's the wrong solution; also you cannot use it twice in the same lambda-list 20:16:49 lukego: there is a form specifically designed to ignore an unused variable, but you're rather use a form that defines a variable that need not be used? 20:17:05 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-57-17.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 20:17:07 -!- smanek [n=smanek@adsl-71-147-48-251.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:17:09 It seems like defining a variable just to ignore it is wrong, and shows the wrong intent :) 20:17:26 I wouldn't mind if (declaim (ignore _)) worked 20:17:43 trittweiler: i was just trying that :) 20:18:28 drewc: oh! yes in this instance I can actually just not create the variable (take away a multiple-value-bind) 20:18:36 also, allowing NIL in the lambda list to mean 'ignore' would work for me 20:18:49 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-127-153.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:01 drewc: nope that won't work 20:20:06 think of macro lambda lists 20:20:16 ejs [n=eugen@92.49.233.6] has joined #lisp 20:20:28 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1AD6.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:21:01 trittweiler: oh... yeah 20:21:39 well, declare ignore doesn't bug me.. i like verbosity... i'm a fast reader. 20:26:54 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 20:27:44 opt9 [n=user@59.7.206.87] has joined #lisp 20:28:54 slash_ [n=unknown@p4FF0B92A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:00 tic [n=tic@c83-249-193-189.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:32:16 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:33:01 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:33:23 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:20 -!- djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:36:02 nil in the lamda list of a derived method is more explicit than a ignore clause. It sais 'I don't need that generalization'. 20:36:53 s/generalization/value/ 20:39:27 drewc: 'tis a vice of mine that I'm willing to commit most sins in order to cut out a line of code :) 20:40:32 -!- alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:40:53 -!- rahul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:42:12 errno-to-string in sbcl anyone? 20:42:15 drewc: I don't like it in many cases where it wastes screen estate for no added value 20:42:26 I prefer the _ variable of haskell. (match anything, and throw it away). but nil will do 20:43:09 lukego: bind to strerror_r? 20:43:15 drewc: Of course, there are also cases where an explicit ignore does add value; often, but not necessarily, when accompanied with a comment 20:44:09 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:44:30 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:45:02 thankee xof 20:45:59 to my eye a lot of modern CL code is actually monsterously verbose, all the 120-column wide CLOS stuff, but I suppose this whinge of mine is not new :) 20:46:18 whereas much other CL code is of course Just Right 20:46:48 lukego: you might be amused by a recent horrific hack of mine 20:47:05 http://paste.lisp.org/display/92750 20:47:13 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:31 not so much the clos stuff, but the effect you get if you save the first bit as "random.lisp" then run xelatex on the second bit 20:48:08 speaking of random... what is blocking adoption of my patch to random-state? 20:48:18 can I do anything to make it more acceptable? 20:48:55 I haven't looked at it yet 20:50:13 -!- joubert [n=joubert@user-0cev80t.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 20:50:42 benny [n=benny@i577A3BDD.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:50:48 snearch_ [n=olaf@g225055065.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:50:53 lichtblau: I get lots of "This repo is obsolete" messages when getting dwim.hu stuff 20:51:00 lichtblau: (clbuild) 20:53:03 Xof: in your above paste, why not open the file with element-type '(unsigned-byte 32) ? 20:53:08 does a tex install really need ~600MB nowadays? 20:53:27 lukego, yes, unless you're going to do installation hacking 20:53:54 I think I'll just rewrite it, shouldn't take that long anyway 20:55:44 xof: neato hack :) typesetting is not that nice on my computer though 20:56:19 btw is there a nice PEG package for lisp nowadays? they're one of the nicer ideas I encountered on my travels. now we don't have to learn automata theory anymore :) 20:58:09 lukego: no, it's not nice typesetting at all. It is, however, an illustration of the kind of literate programming system I want 20:58:14 apart from the ugliness 20:58:36 krystof: similar to pbook right? 20:58:54 pbook redone with e.g. Helmut Eller's elisp PEG could actually be decent 21:01:00 djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:18 Yamazaki-kun [n=bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 21:03:40 trittweiler: which clbuild repo are you using? 21:04:27 The one I checked out a few months ago; there are several? 21:05:19 I made a fork pointing to the dwim.hu live repos just last week. 21:05:54 the one I'm using right now, creates an empty source/cl-syntax-sugar, empty except for a _darcs directory 21:06:22 lichtblau: what's the preferred way to send a patch to clbuild? 21:06:46 tic_ [n=tic@c83-249-193-189.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:07:37 lukego: for you? Just push it to lgorrie@common-lisp.net:/project/clbuild/public_html/clbuild 21:08:04 trittweiler: try http://common-lisp.net/project/clbuild/clbuild-dwim-live/ 21:08:36 trittweiler: dependencies for non-dwim.hu projects may by incomplete, and I've only been testing dwim.hu.perec, not the rest of dwim.hu.wui 21:09:50 lukego: for non-committers, the preferred way is to put up their repository somewhere, and send a pull request to clbuild-devel@common-lisp.net 21:11:37 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-193-189.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:12:38 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-4-247.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:13:41 lukego: I want absolutely minimal markup 21:14:05 also, I want it to introspect the running lisp to generate an index (for larger programs) 21:17:15 Krystof: I wonder if the old MIT ITS filesystems are online still anywhere. they have the 300-page PDP-10 assembler program that Steele/RMS/etc wrote for formatting program listings way back in the day :) 21:20:12 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:21:46 lukego: ITS tapes for PDP-10 emulators are available on some site 21:22:01 Bawden's its.org.org.. but it's been offline for some time (years?) 21:22:31 er, I mean the full filesystem dumps of the old MIT ITS boxes. had mailing list archives of the CL committee, sources to MACLISP, etc 21:23:39 lukego: if it's offline, I'm sure I can find a friend w/ a copy 21:23:58 I thought I remembered saving a copy somewhere myself, but don't see it now 21:23:58 including by sending mail to abawden 21:24:20 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-38-167.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 21:24:33 -!- tic_ [n=tic@c83-249-193-189.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:24:37 jtza8_ [n=jtza8@wbs-41-208-216-105.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:29:30 george_ [n=george@189.13.102.17] has joined #lisp 21:30:54 lukego: you mean http://www.heeltoe.com/retro/mit/mit_cadr_lmss.html ? 21:31:14 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:31:36 felix: no, I mean a tarball of everybody's home directories etc on the last ITS machines at MIT before they were decomissioned. 21:31:41 lukego: for PEG I saw and liked nikodemus's esrap 21:31:47 early releases included people's private mails etc. 21:32:06 cephalopod [i=42a1d3ae@gateway/web/freenode/x-rvhsdwiozzgmdlbh] has joined #lisp 21:32:09 hahaha 21:32:34 luck that mit hackers had no private life 21:32:55 Hey, it beats releasing S//NF PDFs because you think the black box deletes the text underneath. 21:33:03 on cll kmp was upset that people were reading the MACLISP manual without paying him royalties, I recall 21:33:26 lukego: he released it since 21:33:32 to the public I mean 21:34:01 trittweiler: ah so he wasn't concerned about the loss of revenue so much as the risk of good will :) 21:34:26 sorry I will try not to be snarky :) 21:35:45 adeht: thanks, esrap is quite pleasing to the eye 21:36:34 lukego: sorry, to fix your eye pleasure: http://paste.lisp.org/display/90771 21:36:36 ;) 21:37:09 I think elisp is a more suitable vehicle for me though. I'd like to use the same tool for many languages 21:37:16 for literate programming I mean 21:37:46 lichtblau: I pushed a change. cool :) 21:38:01 -!- trittweiler [n=rittweil@atradig113.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:38:34 -!- george [n=george@20158189110.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:38:53 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-118-124.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:42:11 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-120-179.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:43:50 lukego: i had that archive somewhere as well and have been looking for it for months. I remember some amusing mails in the CL archives involving RMS. 21:44:12 -!- legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-13-23.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:44:35 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:44:41 drewc: RMS joking or others joking about him ? 21:44:43 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:44:51 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:45:49 fe[nl]ix: RMS being himself a bit of a joke. a lot of "please don't make this change for CL... it would require a lot of drastic changes to the MIT LM source and i'm just one guy trying to keep up" 21:47:11 lol 21:50:15 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:50:26 how do I globally disable tail-call optimization in sbcl? 21:50:59 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:22 Pepe___ [n=ppjet@mna75-4-82-225-76-148.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:47 I once decided to bait RMS by telling him that my school forced me to use a proprietary compiler. In respone he told me to make bad grades and/or drop out, saying "We all have our chance to fight for freedom. Now is your time." 21:55:18 I'm not sure many take him seriously outside his little cult of fanatics. 21:55:31 *response 21:55:35 cephalopod: remember to never agree to host him for a conference 21:55:43 I heard horror stories 21:55:50 p_l: (: 21:55:55 srsly 21:56:42 I don't really value much of what he says on account of the fact that the whole GNU movement was his may of coping with the fact that his little community of buddies left to go work at Evil Companies. 21:57:21 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:57:33 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-79-117-96.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:57:40 Apologies for all the typos. Ironically, I'm composing this on a new Mircosoft keyboard. 21:58:00 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:42 drewc: yeah I think that objection lives on in cltl2 21:58:53 (or maybe I misremember) 21:59:02 one day I should reclaim my 'puter books from sweden 21:59:32 btw, it's easy to get a perfectly fine MACLISP copy, and who knows, someone might recover MACLISP for MULTICS 22:01:33 smanek [n=smanek@adsl-71-147-48-251.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:51 lukego: i think a debug level higher than 2 should disable TCO.. 22:03:30 lukego: yup, that's right : http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Debugger-Policy-Control.html#Debugger-Policy-Control 22:05:43 higher than 2 basically means 3 right? 22:06:29 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@mna75-4-82-225-76-148.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:07:11 lukego: yeah, but that's not how the sbcl manual puts it, so i'm not taking chances with the terminology :P 22:08:22 hey now I have a green restartable frame in sldb for the first time, seems to really work, neat 22:09:11 is there anywhere to add new adresses to clbuild on the net. I've added a dozen or so to my own projects file.. 22:11:20 -!- Pepe___ is now known as Pepe_ 22:11:33 -!- snearch_ [n=olaf@g225055065.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:12:12 Younder: that's in the FAQ : "My favourite application is not supported. How can I add it?" 22:14:24 tic [n=tic@c83-249-193-189.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:14:57 drewc, thanks! Must have missed that. 22:15:10 francogrex [n=user@91.180.220.104] has joined #lisp 22:16:05 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:16:09 I was reading about the standardization of C. Interesting how they passed from ansi to iso to several other amendments afterwards... was a good read. 22:16:43 is there a particularly high-performance json parser for cl? 22:18:28 sykopomp: if json parsing is your bottleneck, you're doing it wrong! :P 22:20:00 drewc: Or I'm using CouchDB, which is json-happy. 22:21:45 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 22:21:56 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 22:21:58 sykopomp: is the parsing of json really your bottleneck though? it seems that, being such a simple grammer, just about any parser should be fast enough. 22:22:43 drewc: sb-sprof seems to suggest that, yes. There's a -lot- of encoding/decoding going on. 22:23:03 I/O itself is the other bottleneck, it seems. 22:23:20 loosen the coupling, first. do you need all those calls over the network? 22:23:35 yeah, i would assume i/o to be the major issue. 22:23:48 sykopomp: do you need to parse all the data you are parsing? 22:24:13 sykopomp pasted "chillax profile" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92932 22:24:20 drewc: pretty much, yes. 22:24:30 and I need to write out a lot of json, as well. 22:29:27 -!- jtza8_ [n=jtza8@wbs-41-208-216-105.wbs.co.za] has quit ["Sleeping."] 22:29:32 sykopomp: well, that sucks.. re-writing the json parser is really your only choice then. 22:29:42 yup :\ 22:29:50 that's ok... it'll be easy and fun. 22:30:10 well, writing a JSON parser is easy enough. Making it perform fast is another... 22:30:19 just looking at your profile report, the issues are quite obvious 22:30:31 drewc: they are? >_> 22:31:32 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-55-238.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:31:35 sykopomp: indeed... are you using sbcl? 22:31:37 yeah 22:31:39 you are 22:31:51 is *print-pretty* nil? 22:32:10 nope, it's T 22:32:32 ok set that to nil (locally) and try again 22:33:58 -!- slash_ [n=unknown@p4FF0B92A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:35:53 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-4-247.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:36:08 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.180.220.104] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:36:29 -!- smanek [n=smanek@adsl-71-147-48-251.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:36:47 (trying that)... If the lisp process stays at around 40-60%, does that point to an I/O bottleneck? Otherwise, it's just couchdb itself... 22:36:48 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Client Quit] 22:37:17 yeah, that's always a good start, though i don't see how it will help YASON::PARSE-STRING. 22:37:18 22:37:48 Is there some obvious reason why CFFI couldn't store the type size of built in types once then reuse that? 22:37:50 also, *print-pretty* didn't change anything. 22:37:50 sykopomp: i'm pretty sure you can gain some speed in your parser. 22:38:11 drewc: any hints as to how to make the parser perform really well? 22:38:53 smanek [n=smanek@adsl-71-147-48-251.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:14 sykopomp: crank up the optimisations and follow the notes for one. 22:39:24 -!- smanek [n=smanek@adsl-71-147-48-251.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:39:40 your report points to vector-push-extend and read-line as culprits 22:39:48 also generic+ 22:39:56 propositions like talking to another process in a textual format and spending half your time decoding the reply kinda makes me hate computing 22:41:03 read-line sounds like an incorrect thing to be using at all in a JSON parser. 22:41:23 or if you care about performance 22:41:28 ya 22:41:50 *hefner* hates text 22:41:57 Guthur: ?? 22:41:59 text is just human-readable binary 22:42:14 (human readable with the default toolsets) 22:42:15 (then again, using an external textual database and parsing massive result sets sound like the incorrect thing to do if you want performance....) 22:42:42 fe[nl]ix: foreign-type-size gets called a lot even on built in types like :float 22:43:12 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:43:58 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:44:09 Guthur: when ? 22:44:19 mem-aref for one 22:44:27 with-foreign-object 22:44:39 lots really 22:44:42 drewc: It was recommended that I just use a foreign library for JSON, but that honestly seems shitty... 22:44:59 sykopomp: it depends what you are doing with the json really. 22:45:16 if you need to get lisp objects from it, you have to parse it sometime. 22:45:24 Guthur: paste the offending code 22:45:42 or even if the user calls (cffi:foreign-type-size :float) 22:45:50 surely someone's written a performant JSON parser in CL by now, it can't be that hard 22:45:52 drewc: I'm writing a view server for CouchDB, which is basically "deserialize input from a line protocol into lisp objects, frob objects, serialize them back into json and spit them out a stream" 22:45:55 surely it work it out once 22:46:03 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslfy074.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:46:13 it work/it could work 22:46:14 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-35-224-33.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:46:28 sykopomp: then you need a fast serializer/deserializer 22:47:19 sykopomp: parsers are not hard, especially for something as trivial as json. 22:47:22 fe[nl]ix: I have changed my code to use memoization to avoid it 22:48:01 drewc: well, I sort of wonder, because YASON deserializes into lisp hash tables, yet that doesn't really seem to be much of a bottleneck. 22:48:20 (and it would be pretty useful to be able to deserialize into hash tables when documents get huge) 22:48:46 fe[nl]ix: I was just wondering if CFFI could maybe use a similar approach to get a bit of speed boost 22:49:21 sykopomp: the issue is not what structure to use to store the decoded data, it's the data itself. strings, numbers, these things take time to parse. looking at your profiling, your parser is crap. 22:49:54 drewc: heh. I guess it's time to write my own, then, yes :) 22:49:59 Guthur: CFFI used compiler macros to inline pretty much every call with constant arguments. 22:50:10 Guthur: my impression is that you've set DEBUG high enough that compiler macros don't get called, hence slowness 22:50:14 BBommarito [n=user@c-68-61-113-178.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:25 -!- BBommarito [n=user@c-68-61-113-178.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:50:38 fe[nl]ix: ah that is a possibility 22:51:25 hehe just seen the compiler macros 22:51:54 sykopomp: some implementations have non-standard 'fast' i/o primitives... you might want to look into that. 22:52:03 sykopomp: alternately, use rucksack and be happy ;) 22:52:09 *drewc* loves rucksack 22:52:12 couchdb is <3 22:52:19 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:52:34 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:52:36 francogrex [n=user@91.180.220.104] has joined #lisp 22:52:50 sykopomp: not if you want something performant it ain't ;) 22:52:54 for sbcl developers: has anyone pursued this: http://jsnell.iki.fi/blog/archive/2005-07-06.html 22:53:16 jsnell? 22:53:54 drewc: I can't speak for that, although Couch runs a -lot- faster once you have a native lisp view server. 22:53:54 As far as I know, nothing has come of it. 22:58:42 francogrex: ECL apparently produces tiny native executables, if that's the problem you're trying to solve. 22:59:39 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:00:23 sykopomp: i was evaluating couchdb for my most recent contract, but settled on rucksack... not for performance reasons mind... but for the tight integration with lisp itself. 23:01:16 drewc: I'm trying to tighten that up a bit. It's been pretty nice, and serializing to JSON isn't all that bad. I'm going after CouchDB because of how flexible the documents are, though. 23:01:36 I'm using CouchDB for my current Lisp project. 23:01:50 austinh: want a view server? :) 23:01:50 drewc: hey, not really, I'm just interersted in the concept of the treeshaker and how easily can one implement a good one? 23:02:14 sykopomp: I'm not sure that I need one, but thanks. 23:02:40 austinh: You can write views in native lisp, as opposed to having to deal with javascript/parenscript. 23:02:44 and it's faster 23:02:49 sykopomp: i implemented a versioned schemaless document store on top of rucksack in about 60 lines of code. 23:03:11 sykopomp: I like javascript and performance isn't really an issue right now. Maybe down the road, though. 23:03:16 austinh: you can also pull off stunts like this: http://omploader.org/vMzR5Ng by loading whatever you want into the view server's image. 23:03:49 sykopomp: funny 23:04:44 drewc: Neat. OTOH, I can do everything I need with CouchDB with just drakma:http-request :P 23:04:59 (and a very shitty json serializer!) 23:05:50 sykopomp: Did cl-json have performance problems for you? 23:05:55 -!- cephalopod [i=42a1d3ae@gateway/web/freenode/x-rvhsdwiozzgmdlbh] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 23:06:59 sykopomp: well, lets say i'm the kind of guy who prefers writing application code over json parsers. I'm willing to bet my document store implementation is smaller then the amount of code you need just to deal with marshalling and unmarshalling to json :P 23:07:01 is there a nondestructive version of mapcan? 23:07:09 austinh: I haven't tried it with this. I would at least need to modify it to not serialize in the annoying way it currently does. 23:07:19 drewc, you could use CLPython! 23:07:30 clhs mapcan 23:07:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm 23:07:40 tic: mapcar :P 23:08:00 err, no, that's not right... 23:08:02 *sykopomp* shuts up. 23:08:17 sykopomp: i assume you mis-tabbed, as well 23:08:39 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:08:43 timor: (mapcan (lambda (item) (copy-list ...)) ...) 23:09:02 drewc: hmm, i thought there might be a shorter one 23:09:14 (loop for item in list append ...) 23:09:26 aah there you go 23:09:29 thanks 23:09:30 drewc: I only have to write a JSON parser because there isn't already a high-performance one. 23:09:44 one would expect there to be, though. I'm honestly surprised. 23:10:00 so your argument is kind of bogus :\ 23:10:57 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:09 sykopomp: i'm not just talking about parsers of course... how much code is required for your view server? in your code that uses the data.. do you tranform it into another form (say, an instance of a class, a list, a vector), or is your entire application built around strings? 23:13:04 I like couchdb, but i love rucksack! :D 23:13:47 drewc: 1. The view server was very easy to write, and it clocks in at ~238 lines. That includes almost complete support for CouchDB design docs, and several convenience functions for users. 23:13:54 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:14:25 On the view server side, all data is serialized into lisp objects. You don't really see any JSON anywhere as a user. 23:15:03 Right now, it simply defaults to using YASON's serializer, which does hash-table->json-object->hash-table 23:15:27 but that's configurable (it's -trivial- to swap a json parser in and out) 23:15:37 so, "I can do everything I need with CouchDB with just drakma:http-request [(and json parser...)]" was not entirely accurate... you need a vew server first. 23:15:41 view 23:15:47 Yamazaki1kun [n=bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 23:15:49 I don't, really. 23:16:13 *drewc* is confused and not even sure what we are discussing. 23:16:56 the view server is more like the system for building complex queries. You can use CouchDB without ever touching views. 23:17:24 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit ["brb .."] 23:17:56 if you just want to have a bunch of documents and access them by ID, all you really need is http-request and a json lib. 23:18:02 ok, that makes sense and i get that... 23:18:23 but what do you want to do with the documents? storing them and retrieving them is not the hard part. 23:18:26 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 23:19:02 well, myself, I want to serialize Sheeple objects into couchdb documents. 23:19:09 bingo 23:19:19 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.180.220.104] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:19:25 That doesn't sound like a good use for couchdb. 23:19:43 austinh: no? 23:19:43 I think they even call that out specifically in the "What it's not" section. 23:19:49 it's an excellent use for rucksack.. in fact what it's designed for. 23:20:08 drewc: unfortunately, rucksack seemed to be pretty crappy and unstable when I tried it like a year ago. 23:20:19 redis? 23:20:29 "What it is not -- An object-oriented database. Or more specifically, meant to function as a seamless persistence layer for an OO programming language." 23:20:31 also, isn't rucksack one of those in-memory databases, or am I confusing it with another one? 23:20:37 http://couchdb.apache.org/docs/intro.html 23:20:41 sykopomp: i find that hard to believe... i've been using it in production for a simple thing almost 2 years now, and it has always been extremely stable. 23:20:44 austinh: yes, I'm aware they say that. 23:20:53 sykopomp: no, rucksack is disk based. 23:20:57 ok 23:21:06 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.233.6] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:22:08 austinh: it also -does- happen to fit quite nicely with Sheeple in some respects. There's nothing -banning- the use of CouchDB this way, nor is it particularly bad at it. 23:22:29 some people just like to do things the hard way :) 23:22:48 *drewc* goes back to hacking on monads 23:22:52 drewc: indeed. Good thing this isn't really the hard way. 23:22:58 on monads? 23:23:00 pr_ [n=pr@p579CA945.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:19 drewc, Haskell? 23:23:22 lukego: T, i've fallen in love with monads for two specific purposes : continuations and parsing 23:23:29 sykopomp: Sorry, I'm not familiar with Sheeple. 23:23:38 tic: i only read haskell, i don't write much... doing it in CL 23:23:47 austinh: JavaScript merged with CLOS. 23:23:53 in CL. 23:24:11 drewc, alright. so no sugar? did you keep >>= and >> ? 23:24:47 drewc: maybe mapping to rucksack would be nice, actually. My memories of having trouble with it made me not consider it :) 23:24:55 tic: no, MLET* is the primary interface 23:25:17 drewc, maybelet? 23:25:36 (sorry, I 23:25:38 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:25:39 -!- pr_ is now known as pr 23:25:40 I'm not familiar with MLET*) 23:25:45 drewc: what's the benefit of using monads for these tasks? 23:25:57 tic: its like DO notation, only using a LET* like form. 23:26:20 austinh: http://www.cliki.net/Sheeple 23:26:33 hrm... i actually want to have this conversation, but have something to do... i'll be back in 20 minutes or so and will pick this up again. 23:27:01 -!- Yamazaki-kun [n=bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 23:27:58 sykopomp: Thanks, but that's all over my head. 23:28:24 austinh: eh? 23:28:54 I still have no idea what Sheeple is or what problem it solves. 23:29:51 that's something with a bit of an involved answer full of matters of opinion. 23:30:03 *tic* has to go to sleep. :-/ 23:30:18 I should twist my day, like rydis did. 23:30:26 from my point of view, it's more flexible and easier to use than CLOS, and makes expressing certain things simpler. 23:31:47 how do I check the current OPTIMIZE levels in sbcl? 23:34:18 tic: twist? 23:34:39 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:36:45 monads for cl? dear god! 23:36:52 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:37:08 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:16 -!- Yamazaki1kun [n=bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:38:16 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:38:16 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:38:16 -!- sytse [i=sytse@2001:610:1908:8000:21e:8cff:fe1e:77af] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:38:16 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:38:16 -!- _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:38:31 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:40:58 chturne [n=charles@host86-149-126-244.range86-149.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:41:35 plage [n=user@118.68.196.23] has joined #lisp 23:41:43 Good morning! 23:42:03 Good evening! 23:42:41 Yamazaki1kun [n=bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 23:42:41 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:41 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 23:42:41 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:41 sytse [i=sytse@2001:610:1908:8000:21e:8cff:fe1e:77af] has joined #lisp 23:42:41 _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:44:32 chturne: I haven't seen you here for 2.5 years. You must be an expert Lisper by now. 23:45:21 Afraid not. I went of scheme for about 2.3 years due to other things 23:45:26 *off 23:45:41 back on it now, via sicp 23:46:11 ah, wrong channel 23:47:12 chturne: Yeah, I am more interested in your learning Common Lisp 23:47:56 Do you know what I asked 2.5 years ago? 23:48:29 plage's a computer, he never forgets anything! :-) 23:48:46 Ahh. :) 23:49:20 chii [i=chii@freenode/bot/chii] has joined #lisp 23:49:37 adeht: so, i use continuations for web programming. Since cl lacks them, one needs to implement them somehow, and i find that the continuation monad is the cleanest way to do it. since discovering that, i've started to see the utility of monads in other places. 23:50:07 drewc: surely, wrapped in a macro? :) 23:50:09 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:50:34 pkhuong: oh yes, of course. 23:50:41 lisppaste: url? 23:50:41 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 23:51:25 chturne: I have access to the logs. 23:51:31 minion: tell chturne about logs. 23:51:32 chturne: please see logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 23:52:04 drewc pasted "dynamic web 0.0.0.1 : continuations and monads and dynamic wind, oh my!" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92937 23:52:11 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B4231.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:55 I am getting some 'doing SAP to pointer coercion' notes, what can one do to avoid this 23:53:13 pkhuong: basically, the structure of find-default-render-function is what i was trying to achieve... this should all look very familiar to you. 23:53:13 Don't use FFI? 23:53:43 plage: Silly me I should have been using that lisp machine, hehe 23:54:05 pkhuong: but the real magic is of course cm-bind and cm-return 23:54:29 Guthur: Yeah, or a software version of it. 23:55:17 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 23:55:22 Unfortunately there is no lispy implementation of the opengl spec that I know of. 23:55:35 Darn! 23:56:01 pkhuong: now i'm just playing around with generic interfaces to monads, playing with syntaxes.. all sorts of fun. 23:58:08 tic_ [n=tic@c83-249-193-189.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:58:44 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-193-189.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]