00:00:51 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.124.207.62] has joined #lisp 00:03:26 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.231.232] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:04:55 dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-123-121.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:26 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 00:08:36 Okay, that's my hopefully-last commit to CVS prior to the next release. 00:08:46 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:17 -!- cgrubb [n=clark@pool-71-106-36-10.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 00:12:06 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-82-147.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:12:31 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-123-121.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 00:13:57 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:14:52 minion: memo for nikodemus: sb-posix restored to buildability on win32. I make no promises as to how well it works, but it passes enough tests to not be reported as a failed contrib. 00:14:52 Remembered. I'll tell nikodemus when he/she/it next speaks. 00:16:43 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 00:19:11 -!- ejs [n=eugen@109-167-38-74.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:19:14 ejs1 [n=eugen@109-167-38-74.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 00:19:48 JonSmith [n=jon@c-71-233-58-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:55 -!- myrkraverk` [n=johann@157-157-71-119.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:24:43 -!- rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:24:56 rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 00:27:49 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-179-51-253.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:41 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:29:51 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:30:32 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:33:17 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 00:35:17 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483CC44.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:36:11 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:15 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-waquetkqojbwjkrn] has quit [] 00:37:15 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 00:37:47 davazp [n=user@100.Red-79-146-198.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:34 jordyd [n=jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:51 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.90.1"] 00:40:18 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:40:50 i know it will probably be largely meaningless but is there a list of the popularity of the common CL implementation 00:41:10 around here, sbcl is the most popular. 00:41:37 but a lot of people who use lisp aren't around here, so who knows. 00:41:37 ya that is hard to miss, indeed could anyone say if Corman Lisp has much usage 00:41:59 i'm on of those SBCL'ers 00:42:00 I think allegro and lw have pretty big userbases esp. on windows. 00:42:02 one* 00:42:06 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:42:15 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:48 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.172.199] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:44:39 the reason i ask is due to the fact Corman Lisp doesn't seem to support cffi:foreign-funcall 00:44:51 according to the documentation 00:45:43 it's not a big deal though, more curious than anything 00:47:58 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:48:09 plage` [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 00:48:23 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 00:52:30 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:52:31 cgrubb [n=clark@pool-71-106-36-10.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:50 -!- addled [n=adl@cpc2-sgyl9-0-0-cust1291.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:53:41 teiresias [n=user@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #lisp 00:55:49 Guthur: use it, and if a user complains that it's not working in corman, figure out a workaround 00:56:00 I'm so bad at learning Lisp it isn't funny :p 00:56:01 or maybe corman will implement it 00:57:18 Guthur: are you really not going to know what the name of the foreign function will be until run time? 00:57:33 Oddity: how hard are you trying? 00:57:45 rahul i know the name it just may not be available 00:57:49 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@109-167-38-74.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:57:57 Hard enough... Maybe just not long enough since I have other things to do 00:58:18 Guthur: so use defcfun and if it's not available, you'll get an error either way 00:58:31 Oddity: what other languages do you already know? 00:58:55 rahul: i was hoping that might work though it complains the alien function isn't available 00:59:00 can that be ignored 00:59:18 because i know it is available on my setup 00:59:20 Guthur: did you try ignoring it? 00:59:25 C :( 00:59:32 well, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work 00:59:39 hehe not yet, i was taking a break for some tea 00:59:40 Oddity: yeah, that's your main problem 00:59:44 quek [n=read_eva@117.102.187.225.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 00:59:50 Oddity: if you didn't know any languages, it would be easier 00:59:57 probably 01:00:03 trying to decide whether i am too tired to continue dev or not 01:00:10 Guthur: ok, don't get lost hitchhiking on vogon spaceships 01:00:13 drink coffee instead of deciding 01:00:41 "No tea: Just like professional hitchhikers don't carry." 01:01:21 it's peppermint tea for the post modern hitchhiker 01:03:21 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.172.199] has joined #lisp 01:05:20 dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-123-121.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:39 Oddity: What book are you reading? 01:05:57 G'night all. 01:06:01 *nyef* heads off towards bed. 01:06:06 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-123-121.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 01:06:08 'night nyef 01:06:12 -!- plage` [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:08:24 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 01:12:26 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:17:10 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-25-12.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:31 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Client Quit] 01:25:25 pr [n=pr@p579CAF70.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:46 -!- rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:27:07 rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 01:27:27 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 01:28:17 -!- JonSmith [n=jon@c-71-233-58-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 01:32:41 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-99-164-109-247.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:35:21 -!- cgrubb [n=clark@pool-71-106-36-10.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 01:35:59 -!- davazp [n=user@100.Red-79-146-198.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:36:30 -!- bgs100 is now known as HAL9000 01:36:38 -!- HAL9000 is now known as bgs100 01:37:13 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 01:38:10 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-135.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:13 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:39:19 -!- bgs100 is now known as HAL-900 01:39:40 -!- HAL-900 is now known as bgs100 01:41:28 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-25-12.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Now with extra fish!"] 01:41:44 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:39 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:43:17 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@p579EA425.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 01:44:23 -!- jordyd [n=jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:46:08 [1]Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-25-12.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:27 -!- [1]Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-25-12.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:48:57 -!- jfding [n=djf@nat/intel/x-jlzcvjmybpdguiex] has quit ["leaving"] 01:52:46 -!- eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has left #lisp 01:52:50 eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 01:57:28 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:57:28 oops. class redefinition in formulate doesn't change the formulas of existing instances 01:58:02 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.216.206] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 01:58:03 since the formula is stored in the formulate node, which contains cached values, so must be per-slot. doh! 01:58:29 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-092-075-046-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:15 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-092-075-046-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:02:18 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:02:45 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["May the Coyoes cook you some hot chili some day!"] 02:03:03 Beetny_ [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-25-12.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:25 oh crap 02:06:42 accepting-values doesn't let you click on presentations for the individual fields of the dialog? 02:07:15 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 02:09:22 I want to dive into the Lisp. I've read ACL and PCL and now I'm looking some kind of `next step'. Can anyone describe me the Lisp-learning-cycle? 02:09:40 depends what you want to learn now 02:09:48 you know the basics, now things get specialized 02:10:13 there's PAIP and AMOP primarily. 02:10:26 but first, write an application that you'd find useful 02:10:39 oh well, I wish i can use some system calls (for linux or windows or whatever) on lisp. 02:11:06 that's implementation-specific 02:11:12 xenosoz2: pretty easy to do that on sbcl on linux 02:11:14 if you want to do direct syscalls 02:11:37 xenosoz2: one next step is to read and write some code. 02:12:15 xenosoz2: you need to first decide what the application does, then base your choice of whether to use portable or non-portable features on that 02:12:20 not the other way around 02:12:36 pr [n=pr@p579CAF70.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:52 if all you need is stuff provided by ANSI CL, learning syscalls will just be a waste of time 02:13:13 basically, problem -> solution, not the other way around 02:14:02 rahul: what distribution(?) of Lisp is most favorite for windows system calls? 02:14:15 Xach: I'll try PAIP and AMOP first. thank you. 02:15:34 xenosoz2: that makes no sense. everytihng supports the operating system. 02:15:38 rahul: or is there any criteria for choose which Lisp should I use? 02:15:47 Oh well 02:15:49 xenosoz2: whichever you're most comfortable in 02:16:08 whichever has the interaction style you like most, and provides support libraries that you might find useful 02:16:25 or maybe if it's commercial, cost or licensing arrangements might be an isssue 02:16:25 xenosoz2 what is you current set up 02:16:38 you/your 02:16:45 or maybe the user community matters to you 02:16:46 Guthur: freshly installed emacs and slime-sbcl 02:16:57 why do people ride a harley vs a BMW vs a Ducati? 02:17:08 good taste 02:17:32 *rahul* eats a chunk of Xach's arm. now that's good taste! 02:17:50 xenosoz2 i would stick with that for now, its a nice set up 02:18:10 are you on windows? 02:18:26 Guthur: i'm using both, linux and windows. 02:18:57 it shouldn't matter much anyway, at the moment, if you find anything isn't suiting then change 02:19:16 exactly. that's the benefit of multiple implementations 02:19:22 of a standard 02:19:38 they all share the same care functionality, so it's not hard to switch 02:19:39 but if you haven't used emacs before then give it a while, it can be a bit of steep learning curve, but worth the effort 02:19:43 rahul: but with ACL and PCL, i got no idea of calling system calls. Perhaps i'm imagining system APIs. Do the Lisp have some? 02:19:55 xenosoz2: what APIs do you want? 02:20:03 clhs with-open-file 02:20:03 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_open.htm 02:20:17 that's an API to a syscall 02:20:30 ! 02:20:40 one you learned about already in PCL 02:21:07 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:20 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:21:26 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 02:21:34 rahul: then how can i make some functions like `with-open-file'? 02:21:45 well, with-open-file is a macro that calls OPEN 02:21:59 if you're talking about how to implement OPEN, that's what lisp implementors do :) 02:22:25 that's why it's part of the standard. so that you don't need to write the OS interfacing glue 02:22:50 each implementation is structured differently for achieving this kind of thing 02:23:33 if you have a specific thing from the OS you want access to, we may be able to tell you about a library that wraps that OS API or something 02:24:03 cl-sdl, for example, is an interface to the SDL library for graphics 02:24:29 `CL-SDL: Common Lisp bindings for SDL' 02:24:36 Then i can't use that with sbcl? 02:24:56 xenosoz2 what makes you think that 02:25:00 why not? 02:25:06 SBCL is a common lisp implementation 02:25:25 plage [n=user@123.19.51.135] has joined #lisp 02:25:27 you might not be able to use it in windows because SBCL's ffi layer may not work right on windows yet 02:25:34 but try it and see 02:25:59 maybe it'll work fine with clisp on windows 02:26:08 minion: speak softly 02:26:09 you speak nonsense 02:26:18 minion: but carry a big stick 02:26:19 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 02:26:35 rahul, Guthur: all right. now i think i got the idea. time to rock. thank you. 02:26:44 heh. minion's not into the whole foreign policy thing, I guess 02:27:39 lispbuilder-sdl never mentions any specific issues with SBCL and windows, from what i remember, so it may be ok 02:29:02 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["May the Coyoes cook you some hot chili some day!"] 02:29:53 -!- plage [n=user@123.19.51.135] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:31:18 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:05 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:36:03 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 02:38:33 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-209-251.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 02:45:24 nimalan [n=nimalan@CPE000ae6ad1ea9-CM00169240d79c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:45:39 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@CPE000ae6ad1ea9-CM00169240d79c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:47:34 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:53 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:51:31 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 02:53:33 nybbles [n=nimalan@CPE000ae6ad1ea9-CM00169240d79c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:53:51 -!- nybbles [n=nimalan@CPE000ae6ad1ea9-CM00169240d79c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:53:52 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:04:13 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-135.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:08:46 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:31 kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-22-5.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:02 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:08 -!- Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:14:29 Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 03:15:54 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:16:00 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-tqbkoqkqkbvdqtgg] has joined #lisp 03:28:07 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-135.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:48 -!- jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:35:45 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 03:36:32 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 03:40:16 wakeup^ [n=wakeup@koln-5d815871.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:39 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d8163a1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:42:37 -!- Madsy [n=madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 03:43:58 Sluggo [n=chrish@c-75-64-59-44.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:19 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-22-5.client.stsn.net] has quit [] 03:45:22 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-10-112.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:45:37 kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-22-5.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:22 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["May the Coyoes cook you some hot chili some day!"] 03:49:50 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:50:15 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:07 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:59:25 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:05:19 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:05:21 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nvbhpsjcoyjrlysj] has joined #lisp 04:07:10 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-62-155.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:11:37 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:12:15 PassingStranger_ [n=Horst@p54BF6111.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:36 -!- PassingStranger [n=Horst@p54BF600C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:20:21 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:57 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:28:58 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ppp-70-249-155-206.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 04:29:48 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 04:30:28 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 04:33:23 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:34:35 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:36:39 djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:04 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-135.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:44:10 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:22 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["meh"] 04:52:00 jordyd [n=jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:25 seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:14 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:55:59 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.197.157] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:57:12 -!- Oddity [n=Oddity@99.199.136.138] has quit [] 05:14:49 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:21:02 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.249.165] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:22:07 -!- bipt` [i=bpt@cpe-173-095-174-230.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:24:15 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-1-74.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:01 kroger [n=user@adsl-75-36-167-233.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:37 -!- djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:29:52 lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.249.165] has joined #lisp 05:31:59 -!- kroger [n=user@adsl-75-36-167-233.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:36:54 what's faster, cmucl or sbcl? 05:38:20 um, sbcl usually 05:38:24 look at the boinkmarks 05:45:07 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 05:46:21 Does CMUCL have any active development these days? 05:46:44 -!- snowbeard [n=user@cpe-065-190-191-189.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:46:48 cmucl-20a 05:47:22 it seems 05:47:53 oh finally a version 20 05:47:53 heh 05:48:08 I was but a wee lad when 19 was released 05:48:24 cmucl grows in elephant years, it seems 05:51:34 snowbeard [n=user@cpe-065-190-191-189.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:52:44 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-117-173.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:52:58 -!- tmh [n=user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 05:54:35 -!- jordyd [n=jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:58:19 Martin Crakauer now works at and SBCL/CCL shop. 05:58:46 I've no idea what Toy, and van Eynde, and others are doing.' 06:01:56 My eyes grow heavy. Good night. Happy celebrating whatever it is you celebrate. 06:02:02 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 06:07:27 -!- ceineke_ is now known as sledge 06:13:10 -!- alec [n=alec@adsl-179-22-176.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 06:14:55 hi, anyone know how, in lispworks, to show the value of a variable while debugging ? 06:15:10 topo [n=topo@190.232.44.127] has joined #lisp 06:15:15 hi 06:15:24 which is the fast iteration in lisp? 06:15:35 um 06:15:38 any of them 06:15:43 they're all the same speed 06:15:48 really? 06:15:48 that's the point of a compiler 06:15:57 is dotimes the same as loop ? 06:16:00 why would one be any faster than another when they are all compiled? 06:16:02 yes 06:16:25 if it's not, one of them is written deficiently in the compiler 06:16:32 somebody told me dotimes wasnt fast because is n^2 06:16:38 haha 06:16:40 topo: loop is ordinarily a macro that eventually becomes a do, anyway. Trust your compiler. And remember the first rule of optimization 06:16:46 how the hell is it n^2? 06:16:56 2^n 06:17:02 i cant remember 06:17:03 what kind of crack monkey are you friends with? 06:17:05 the speed 06:17:29 topo: please don't associate with idiots 06:17:39 dotimes go back to the beginning always and is not very fast for iterating over an array 06:17:42 you'll embarrass yourself less 06:17:45 topo: If there were any looping constructs in lisp that had 2^n (or even n^2) performance, I'm sure someone would have fixed it by now. 06:17:47 haha 06:18:00 topo: you've really found a dumb friend there 06:18:07 beginning of what? 06:18:14 of the list 06:18:17 um 06:18:23 dotimes takes linear time 06:18:30 whats linear time 06:18:31 if you're dumb enough to use nth, that's your problem 06:18:33 n 06:18:42 nth takes O(n) time 06:18:49 why do you call me dumb 06:18:51 if you use that, you deserve to lose 06:18:53 im just asking 06:18:57 because using nth is dumb 06:19:03 why? 06:19:15 because you're complaining about speed and you're using nth 06:19:19 *rahul* facepalm 06:19:33 so dotimes is faster than nth? 06:19:45 heh 06:20:03 is a rocket faster than a drill? 06:20:06 The point rahul is trying to make is that dotimes is linear and if you call nth inside that that would become n^2 06:20:24 oh yes 06:20:27 I think topo has a misunderstanding here 06:20:27 i see 06:20:32 topo: You should also research the concept of "premature" optimization, which has increasingly become a problem with contemporary architecture -- where the processor spends most of its time waiting for I/O or dealing with cache misses. 06:20:43 topo: nth is a loop, dotimes is a loop 06:20:52 nth inside of dotimes is nested loops 06:21:05 use dolist if you want to iterate across a list 06:21:15 oh yes, i see 06:21:32 putin nth inside dotimes is very slow 06:21:33 isnt it? 06:22:09 i thought it was dotimes slow, not the conbination of nth and dotimes 06:22:33 cools` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 06:23:02 I'm a bit of a purist I would rather be using a tail recursive function :) 06:23:40 now i understand why my cellular automata is so slow 06:23:42 snowbeard: well, that's linear in both space and time 06:23:43 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439976.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 06:23:47 do you want to see the code? 06:24:09 topo: arrays would be better 06:24:17 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-10.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 06:24:18 rahul: I know its linear is time, but I was under the impression that it did not occupy stack space 06:24:33 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:24:37 snowbeard: this isn't #scheme :) 06:24:41 *aja* screams "premature optimization" into a pillow 06:24:50 tail recursion is undefinable in common lisp 06:24:51 Thanks! 06:25:09 rahul: Um, what? 06:25:13 aja: that 06:25:15 it is 06:25:19 just accept it 06:25:36 please check this out 06:25:37 http://pastebin.com/m7e100dd9 06:25:37 tail recursion is an implementation-dependent concept in CL 06:25:58 rahul: "tail recursion" is just a recursive function where the recursive call is the last call of the funciton. 06:26:08 things in the standard could be implemented in different ways and that makes them have tail positions or not 06:26:15 aja: which is undefinable in CL 06:26:29 aja: is the last for of a LET in tail position or not? 06:26:37 last form of 06:26:53 it's implementation dependent, based on how dynamic binding is implemented 06:28:13 rahul: Perhaps. But that doesn't mean the concept of tail recursion doesn't exist. It just means that your compiler might optimize it away. Which...uh...you want. 06:28:25 (at least in most cases) 06:28:28 aja: it's not _definable_ for the language 06:28:39 aja: or it might not optimize it away 06:28:42 you can't tell 06:28:55 only reading the implementation's docs well tell you 06:28:59 if they choose to document it 06:29:33 I choose to just not obfuscate my code 06:29:41 if I'm thinking iteratively, I write iteratively 06:29:43 rahul: Nonsense, unless you're using an extremely formal definition of "tail recursion". 06:30:17 plage [n=user@123.19.66.10] has joined #lisp 06:30:19 aja: yeah, extremely formal like "do tail calls exist" 06:30:20 rahul: For example, the degenerate case of a function that contains only a call to itself is clearly tail recursion. 06:30:21 what is the easiest way to get the list (1 2 3) from (1 2) ? 06:30:25 Good afternoon! 06:30:35 aja: wrong 06:30:43 aja: it depends on the parameter names 06:31:04 good morning more like it 06:31:08 clhs butlast 06:31:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_butlas.htm 06:31:11 konichiwa, ^ 06:31:13 and I'm off to bed 06:31:14 konichiwa: Add a 3 to the end of it. 06:31:18 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:31:27 Adlai: I think it's the other way around. 06:31:29 oh oops. Misread. try append 06:31:37 *Adlai* also just woke up 06:31:45 konichiwa: The question is why you would want to do that. 06:32:05 Just to add to the discussion sbcl does implement tail call properly 06:32:09 how do i add a 3 to the end of it ? 06:32:11 cools`` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 06:32:22 clhs append 06:32:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_append.htm 06:32:34 http://bit.ly/7yEORD 06:32:43 (last (append (list 1 2) 3)) 06:32:46 gives me 2.3 06:32:47 konichiwa: Use append as described on that CLHS page. 06:32:52 snowbeard: it could implement it better 06:33:08 konichiwa: You need to read an introductory text about Lisp. 06:33:08 if it were implemented differently 06:33:15 anyway. good morning. 06:33:21 minion, tell konichiwa about gentle 06:33:22 konichiwa: please see gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 06:33:23 konichiwa: (append '(1 2) (list 3)) 06:33:48 fe[nl]ix: You tried to call me? 06:34:00 -!- cools` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:34:28 konichiwa, depending on what you're doing, you may want the "push'n'reverse" idiom, ie, PUSH onto the front of the list as you collect, and then NREVERSE at the end to get them in the right order. 06:34:30 weird, i would have thought (append '(1 2) '(3)) would give me (1 2 (3)) 06:34:33 ok, thanks 06:34:51 konichiwa: Now why would you have thought that? 06:35:19 fe[nl]ix: I turn my phone off at night because the other night, the phone company called me at 2am for a customer-satisfaction survey. :( 06:38:42 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.172.199] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:39:15 minion, tell konichiwa about pcl 06:39:17 konichiwa: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 06:39:45 konichiwa, you may find PCL more interesting than Gentle Intro. 06:40:02 lisp is just elements, lists, and functions ... is that a bad description ? 06:40:08 yep 06:40:13 very 06:40:24 how would you describe it then ? 06:41:31 konichiwa: Look in the glossary under `element' and see whether that is what you meant. 06:42:19 bipt [i=bpt@cpe-173-095-174-230.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:42:58 konichiwa: Do you know any other programming languages? 06:43:22 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:44:20 konichiwa: I would start with the evaluation of symbolic expressions. 06:44:59 konichiwa: I strongly suspect that there is no phrase that short that would accurately describe any useful programming language. 06:46:29 as far as a general description, konichiwa, look at the title. It's a twist on a quote from John Foderero: "Common Lisp is the programmable programming language." 06:46:43 eh I meant topic. 06:46:51 in lispworks, how do i tell it to stop evaluating the last entry, or to stop a debugging session ? 06:46:55 konichiwa: And how come you expect people to answer your questions, whereas you seem unwilling to answer questions from others? 06:47:14 plage: i know c++, java, etc 06:47:31 konichiwa: How would you describe C++? 06:47:32 plage: i've used elisp a bit before 06:49:05 plage, rather than ask rhetorical questions, why don't just state the point you're trying to make 06:49:25 my impression is that lisp can be described fairly accurately in just a few sentences 06:49:32 no, that's not the case with c++ 06:49:51 if you know how to end the current debugging session in lispworks, would appreciate the info 06:50:08 it's rediculous, i've haven't seen an IDE that didn't plainly indicate how to do this 06:52:07 konichiwa: One reason I don't think Lisp can be described that easily is that even the list of features (even without any explanation of what they are) is longer than what you might expect: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/features.text 06:52:58 finally found it, in the "listener" for the debugging window, entered "exit" and then got a choice to exit to level 0 06:54:15 konichiwa, the LispWorks folks have a website with some documentation. Maybe nose around in http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/ 06:55:09 *Adlai* => work 06:55:37 yah, i know, i just like to complain 06:57:23 splittist [n=dmurray@ASt-Lambert-153-1-27-125.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:57:29 morning all 06:57:41 -!- dek51 [n=eugene@mail.quickpay.ru] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:58:08 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 06:58:23 dek51 [n=eugene@mail.quickpay.ru] has joined #lisp 06:59:01 hello splittist 07:00:42 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:07:36 dnolen [n=dnolen@ppp-70-249-155-206.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:15 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 07:16:03 -!- malsyned [n=malsyned@24-151-81-214.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:16:31 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:19:43 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ppp-70-249-155-206.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 07:21:38 dnolen [n=dnolen@ppp-70-249-155-206.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:22 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:34:42 nybbles [n=nybbles@CPE000ae6ad1ea9-CM00169240d79c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 07:34:43 -!- PassingStranger_ [n=Horst@p54BF6111.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:39:47 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 07:41:13 any non-nil value is considered true for boolean comparison ? is there a symbol for the boolean true ? 07:42:36 konichiwa: any non-nil value is true, but if you are trying to explicitly say "true" use t. 07:42:53 thanks 07:43:00 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:49:46 -!- plage [n=user@123.19.66.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:50:56 nicklevinehome [n=chatzill@cpc1-cmbg14-2-0-cust14.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:53:44 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:57:40 YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:57:45 lispworks suddenly exited without a message while evaluating depth-first search for an 8 puzzle 07:57:54 i had to increase the stack by 300 percent 2 or 3 times 07:58:27 was it a bug, or did i hit a heap limit ? 08:00:39 Probably a ... stack limit. 08:01:06 slash_ [n=unknown@p4FF0A88A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:35 if i didn't exceed the built in limitations for the personal edition, it's a bug 08:02:42 hdurer_ [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-cmcjpjkjmazvouxl] has joined #lisp 08:05:35 hm, it seems to work if i give it a max search depth 08:06:08 however, the exercise didn't call for supplying a max search depth as an argument 08:06:22 akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.209] has joined #lisp 08:07:46 is there a way in clisp to allow for a larger program stack ? 08:16:00 which is the command for seeing identation in common lisp? 08:16:03 in emacs? 08:17:15 what do you mean by "seeing" 08:17:30 you always see your indentation, it's indicated by how the code is shown on the screen 08:17:40 i just discovered 08:17:45 m-x show paren mode 08:18:22 you mean you wanted to see matching parens ? 08:18:28 thats not the same as "indentation" 08:19:19 yes 08:19:43 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:21:08 konichiwa: was this lispworks personal edition? which OS? 08:22:25 ah. I see it was the personal edition... this does have a heap limit. 08:22:39 yeah 08:22:43 im running in clisp now 08:22:59 It's very rare indeed for LW to exit "silently" (other than personal edition limitations) 08:23:07 there are about 9! states 08:23:20 so the stack could descend down 9! levels at most in a depth first search 08:23:32 can i make a question? 08:23:46 To debug: run from a shell (so you can see *termimal-io*) -- if it was a GC failure you'll get a message 08:24:10 i need a little 8 puzzle GUI game so i can check that the soution is right 08:24:31 topo, don't ask to ask, just ask. 08:24:34 Also, consider recording output from (room) from time to time as that will log growth of heap 08:24:42 ok, sorry 08:25:00 look , im creating a 3d matrix of cubes 08:25:09 im just using dotimes 08:25:23 i would like to do the same but instead of using dotimes, use dolist 08:25:24 is that possile? 08:26:11 are you iterating over a list? 08:26:37 i.e. how are you representing this 3d matrix? 08:26:38 no, but ill do 08:26:41 thats the idea 08:26:45 look 08:26:47 http://paste.lisp.org/display/92567 08:26:52 look that link nicklevinehome 08:27:01 *nicklevinehome* looks 08:27:32 i need to do the same but instead using dotimes use dolist 08:28:03 I looked but it didn't tell me much (other than if it were my cocde, I'd have bound something to (- *n* 2) outside all the loops) 08:28:28 didn't tell me much because it doesn't show me the matrix 08:29:18 forget about that 08:29:32 (dotimes (i 20) 08:29:50 (dotimes (j 20)) 08:30:00 (dotimes (k 20)) 08:30:23 thats a 3d cube made with 20 * 20 * 20 cells 08:31:07 do you understand? 08:31:51 topo: answer me this -- how is the matrix represented? Is it a list of lists? a 3-d array? a hash table? or what? 08:32:15 its a visual program, with opengl 08:32:24 it appears the 3d matrix in the screen 08:32:43 the matrix is represented as list yes 08:32:55 -!- Sluggo [n=chrish@c-75-64-59-44.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:33:02 here it is my list 08:33:02 (setf l (loop repeat *n* collecting (loop repeat *n* collecting (loop repeat *n* collecting (make-patch :c (random 1.0) :t 1 :x 0))))) 08:33:20 a list? ouch. 08:33:34 why?, whats wrong? 08:33:56 because that's an inefficientr structure for 08:34:01 ... wha tyou're dpoing 08:34:03 but: 08:34:10 how it should be? 08:34:11 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 08:34:35 i explain you 08:34:37 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:34:38 (dolist (plane *n*) (dolist (row plane) (dolist (column row) (frob matrix plane row column)))) 08:34:46 ive made a 3d cellular automata 08:34:57 please hold on those details - irrelevant 08:34:58 but i did it with dotimes, and i put a nth inside the dotimes 08:35:10 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 08:35:21 consider using a 3-d array 08:35:23 and somebody told me to use dolist instead of dotimes, because it was a bad idea to have nth inside of dotimes 08:35:52 why a 3d array? 08:35:55 that way, when you bump up to 200x200x200 it'll make more sense 08:36:12 3d arrays are faster than lists? 08:36:18 why? because it's the natural structure to use for a (non sparse) 3-d matrix 08:36:29 Sluggo [n=chrish@c-75-64-59-44.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:36:46 faster and more compasct 08:36:52 compact 08:36:59 and should i use dolist to iterate over my 3d array? 08:37:22 Is your array a list? 08:37:32 your friend, telling you not to use nth, was correct but incomplete 08:37:50 im i dont know , i just used lists in common lisp 08:37:51 plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.197.145] has joined #lisp 08:37:59 whats thought arrays doenst exist in common lisp 08:38:01 *nicklevinehome* has to go out now, passes the batton 08:38:09 Literacy is an essential skill for a programmer. 08:38:26 Please read a book -- I suggest "Practical Common Lisp" which you can find on the internet for free. 08:38:48 ummm ok 08:39:17 And right now you appear to be missing very basic information which means it's almost impossible to help you. 08:39:56 what do you mean? 08:40:13 i read that book 08:40:24 You don't know if your array is a list or not, or even if there are arrays in common lisp. 08:40:40 ummm, yes i forgot 08:40:44 im gonna read again 08:40:50 An excellent idea. 08:40:51 -!- cools`` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["sleep"] 08:41:09 in my book (lisp-book.org/contents) I introduce arrays in chapter 2 and lists in chapter 9. that might help... 08:41:25 cool thanks 08:41:30 im gonna read it now 08:41:55 i remember i read that everything is a list in lisp 08:41:59 maybe im wrong 08:42:12 sorry, you are 08:42:14 You are wrong, and it may be that you are also illiterate. 08:42:25 You might want to get that checked. 08:42:38 hehe 08:42:53 (almost) everything in lisp is a lisp "object" 08:43:10 *nicklevinehome* realy has to go now 08:44:03 morning 08:44:08 hey nicklevinehome 08:44:23 :topo hey - on my way out so must be quick 08:44:26 i cant select chapter 2 neither chater 9 08:44:35 I haven't written the myet 08:44:40 I can;t select them either 08:44:47 if I could it would save me some time 08:45:00 *nicklevinehome* tries selecting all chapters 08:45:10 you havent wrote that chapter yet? 08:45:10 minon: please write the rest of the book for me 08:45:20 actuallt, ch2 is in draft 08:45:25 ch9 not started 08:45:42 minion: are you there? 08:45:43 no 08:45:55 *nicklevinehome* thanks minion 08:48:09 hey i found the difference 08:48:10 Accessing the nth element of an array takes O(1) time 08:48:11 Accessing the nth element of a list takes O(n) time 08:49:26 freiksenet [n=freiksen@YMMXXXIV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 08:51:40 one question , should i use dolist to iterate all over a array/ 08:51:47 or dolist is just for lists? 08:54:16 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:58:53 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:59:50 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:00:00 clhs dolist 09:00:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_dolist.htm 09:00:22 topo, meet specbot. specbot, meet topo. 09:00:31 also meet http://l1sp.org/ 09:01:15 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 09:01:40 it doesnt say anything about arrays 09:03:57 freiksenet1 [n=freiksen@YYMMMCCCVII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 09:03:59 madsy [n=madsy@78-26-25-57.network.trollfjord.no] has joined #lisp 09:05:24 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-092-075-038-032.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:05:50 kwinz3_ [n=kwinz@85.125.183.208] has joined #lisp 09:07:02 -!- freiksenet1 [n=freiksen@YYMMMCCCVII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:08:17 -!- Sergio`_ [n=Sergio`@a89-152-191-112.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 09:13:14 arrays before lists -- that's a wonderful idea. I have to wonder how easy is it to overcome the subject's (lisp's, that is) resistance to this teaching technique :) 09:14:42 addled [n=adl@cpc2-sgyl9-0-0-cust1291.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:18:58 ejs [n=eugen@92-49-197-37.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 09:18:59 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-92-225.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 09:19:41 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@YMMXXXIV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:21:19 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.124.207.62] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:26:20 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:27:05 nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:29:45 -!- addled [n=adl@cpc2-sgyl9-0-0-cust1291.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 09:30:21 :topo http://www.nicklevine.org/declarative/lectures/lectures/lecture-8.html see section 8.5 which compares different data structures 09:30:47 :cmm- that's a little experiment of mine 09:33:46 :topo In summary: you need to start by figuring out which data structure is appropriate for the job. After that, choosing the constructs for accessing that structure is straightforward. 09:44:12 topo, if you want to iterate over a 3D array, you could try using three nested dotimes forms, using the indices from each one as indices into the array; ie, in the middle, you'd have something like (frob (aref i j k)) 09:44:12 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.124.207.224] has joined #lisp 09:44:53 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B236D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:45:03 You could also iterate it in row-major form. 09:45:30 -!- slash_ [n=unknown@p4FF0A88A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:46:08 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.135] has joined #lisp 09:46:42 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ppp-70-249-155-206.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 09:47:27 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-092-075-038-032.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:51:21 slash_ [n=unknown@p4FF0A88A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:52:06 jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-79-191.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:53:11 -!- kwinz3_ [n=kwinz@85.125.183.208] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:00:04 -!- quek [n=read_eva@117.102.187.225.static.zoot.jp] has left #lisp 10:02:29 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:03:36 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-191-112.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 10:04:33 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:04:51 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:05:11 Axius [n=ade@92.85.216.251] has joined #lisp 10:05:33 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:06:05 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.85.216.251] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:06:44 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 10:07:36 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-79-191.iburst.co.za] has quit ["Later"] 10:09:58 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.124.207.224] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:10:23 j0be [n=j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has joined #lisp 10:10:41 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.124.207.224] has joined #lisp 10:11:28 Q: I have a plist with a key that is a list '(:k :k) and a value ((:a :b)(:c :d)), how do I extract this value using getf? 10:12:11 the plist is then '( (:k :k) ((:a :b)(:c :d) ), so the key (:k :k) --> ((:a :b) ...) 10:12:36 ... (getf '(:k :k) plist) does not work and returns nil 10:16:10 majhool [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 10:17:09 -!- nybbles [n=nybbles@CPE000ae6ad1ea9-CM00169240d79c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 10:17:23 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B236D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:20:28 clhs getf 10:20:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_getf.htm 10:20:48 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:20:57 getf uses eq 10:21:13 so either roll your own or switch to alists 10:21:47 assoc takes a :test argumenty 10:22:49 -!- Demosthenex [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:25:50 ruepel0r [n=rue@77-21-138-135-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:25:51 plage [n=user@123.19.66.10] has joined #lisp 10:25:57 Good afternoon! 10:27:32 jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 10:28:26 hi, plage 10:32:18 or intern your keys 10:32:19 howdy 10:33:17 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@77-21-138-135-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:33:27 does aref work on all vectors? 10:35:32 yes 10:35:55 thanks! is elt slower? 10:37:07 ruepel0r [n=rue@77-21-138-135-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:37:32 majhool, probably, because it has to dispatch on whether it's an array or a list 10:37:57 Adlai: makes sense, thank you 10:38:42 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-42-93.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:40:56 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-92-225.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:41:40 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.135] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:44:54 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:45:19 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:45:29 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 10:46:54 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@77-21-138-135-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:48:03 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-219.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:48 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-11-35.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:51:35 slash_1 [n=unknown@p5DD1CEE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:40 freiksenet [n=freiksen@YYMMMCCCVII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 10:52:15 -!- Sluggo [n=chrish@c-75-64-59-44.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:54:22 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-8492.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 10:58:21 -!- majhool [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["thanks"] 11:03:44 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.124.207.224] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:04:41 kwinz3 [i=kwinz@213142100007.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 11:06:43 -!- slash_ [n=unknown@p4FF0A88A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:08:44 -!- slash_1 is now known as slash_ 11:14:36 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92-49-197-37.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:15:02 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 11:16:57 -!- luis` [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:16:59 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:19:28 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:19:55 -!- OmniMancer1 is now known as OmniMancer 11:20:07 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:20:53 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-10.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:23:29 -!- teiresias [n=user@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has left #lisp 11:23:41 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D8DE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:57 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-10.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 11:26:13 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 11:27:55 *p_l* just got burned by Arch's dislike for texinfo system :/ 11:28:00 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:29:19 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B236D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:51 -!- akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.209] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:32:25 nipra [n=nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 11:33:29 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:33:40 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:34:42 nicklevinehome: thanks. 11:37:12 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 11:37:58 if i have a recursive functipn that performs push / pop on a list, where the list is passed in as say paramater "x", only one copy of that variable x is on the stack, yes ? 11:38:57 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:03 konichiwa: Since your terminology is probably not standard, you won't understand the answer, but no, there is a copy of the variable in each call frame. 11:39:24 when you say copy of the variable, do you mean a copy of all of the list data ? 11:39:30 or just a pointer to it ? 11:39:42 it must just be a pointer 11:40:00 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 11:40:00 konichiwa: I mean a copy of the VARIABLE. Not of its value. 11:40:06 because the function is able to modify the list data, which is seen in the calling function 11:41:23 i'm still getting a stack overflow, and i changed it so that it just push/pop the same list 11:42:11 ... great, emacs-lisp mode by default injects GPL3 license into your code 11:42:27 konichiwa: Notice that push and pop don't modify the list data, only the place that you give it, in this case the varialble. 11:44:02 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nvbhpsjcoyjrlysj] has left #lisp 11:45:17 apparently when you pass a list into a function, it gets its own copy 11:45:17 *p_l* was crafting a nice boot code for a packaged version of slime/redshank/apredit 11:45:24 (setq x '(1 2)) 11:45:28 (push 3 x) 11:45:34 now x is (3 1 2) 11:45:41 (defun foo (x) (push 3 x)) 11:45:50 (setq x '(1 2)) 11:45:51 (foo x) 11:45:54 Yep, so you modified the variable x. That's what I said. 11:45:56 that returns (3 1 2) 11:46:00 but x is still (1 2) 11:46:09 Yes, that's what I said. 11:46:13 thus i believe x inside foo is its own copy 11:46:25 Yes, that's what I said. 11:46:46 plage, what about a recursive function declared using lables, making use of x in an outer function ? 11:47:03 on each recursion, it would still be using one and only one list, no copyiing ? assuming 11:47:13 that x is not passed into the recursive fn defined in labels ? 11:47:35 konichiwa: There is never any implicit list copying. In the case you cite, in addition, there would be only one copy of the variable. 11:48:06 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:49:17 konichiwa: Notice that in your example above, no list structure is copied. 11:50:16 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A84DB.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:50:18 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:51:03 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:13 ziga` [n=user@BSN-61-41-229.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:42 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 11:53:55 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.196.143] has joined #lisp 11:54:30 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-146-243.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:54:32 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:56:23 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:56:38 CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.47.198] has joined #lisp 11:58:17 *plage* goes to Christmas dinner. 11:58:26 -!- plage [n=user@123.19.66.10] has left #lisp 11:58:52 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B236D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:59:13 plage, in your experience 11:59:25 how hard is it to write a lisp function that will not give a stack overflow 11:59:35 if the nesting is say 100,000 calls deep ? 11:59:38 benny [n=benny@i577A7414.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:59:57 konichiwa: why do you need the nesting? 12:00:17 i'm doing a depth-first search solution to an "8 puzzle" you can google it if you ant 12:00:27 if you need to nest and need extra space per nesting, then you are screwed 12:00:27 the 8 puzzle has 9! states 12:01:06 when you do a depth first search, it seems possible you might get a solution involving many thousnds of moves 12:01:10 c|mell [n=cmell@111.84.57.234] has joined #lisp 12:01:16 which means you descend recursivley down many thousands of calls 12:01:52 this function only takes a single integer variable paramater, and doesn't declare any variables 12:02:02 it works when i set the depth limit to 10, or even 100 12:02:09 but when i set no depth limit, i get a stack overflow 12:02:25 konichiwa, do you know about tail recursion? 12:02:26 if i set the depth limit to 100, i get a solution involving 100 moves 12:02:54 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@YYMMMCCCVII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:02:57 is there a paste bin? 12:03:08 maybe someone could take a quick look and tell me what you think 12:03:12 konichiwa: see topic 12:03:14 konichiwa, do you know about tail recursion? 12:04:15 konichiwa pasted "depth first search" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92568 12:04:34 http://paste.lisp.org/display/92568 12:04:53 dfsNoLoop is pretty spare .. i don't see why i should be running out of stack space 12:05:14 I guess konichiwa doesn't want my help since he is ignoring me. 12:05:27 stoop no 12:05:40 I love the NIL ; TRUE ;) 12:05:53 konichiwa, no? No what? 12:06:08 stoop no i don't know about "tail recursion" 12:06:12 Ok. 12:06:21 konichiwa, I suggest you learn about it. 12:06:27 adeht: what's wrong with that ? 12:06:29 adeht: I love the formatting... :D 12:06:44 konichiwa, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tail_recursion 12:06:53 it lights like a xmas tree in lisppaste 12:06:54 konichiwa: in Lisp, the only value that is "false" is NIL 12:07:24 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:07:35 i actually got rid of currentState, i just use (first path) everywhere now 12:07:49 so there are no variables declared within dfsNoLoop 12:08:09 adeht: that was the true case fork of an if 12:08:18 i simply had to put something there as a place holder 12:08:55 adeht: towers is fun. i made a small patch to gray out the factory and upgrade text if you can't afford them. 12:09:50 in lisp, trace just outputs during the run ? 12:10:06 i think i'll put a trace in to see what depth i'm getting to, and what the states are 12:13:03 Xach: cool, do you want to paste it and I'll apply, or fork on github? 12:13:52 Xach: another dude also started hacking on towers.. he's playing with generating random worlds 12:16:17 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-11-35.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:23:56 adeht annotated #92568 "clearer" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92568#1 12:25:48 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:27:16 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:27:38 -!- Beetny_ [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-25-12.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:28:26 shrughes [n=shrughes@pool-108-2-120-130.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:28:28 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@111.84.57.234] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:30:06 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:30:18 adeht annotated #92568 "oops" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92568#2 12:32:40 how do you make the stack size bigger using clisp ? 12:32:52 konichiwa: the function looks ok.. what is the search space size? 12:37:31 adeht: you familiar with the 8 puzzle ? 12:37:34 you could google it 12:37:57 there are 9! possible states .. it's that slide puzzle with 8 numbers, 1 to 8, and a blank squiare, in a 3x3 grid 12:38:02 you have to put them in order 12:38:05 ejs [n=eugen@83-23-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:07 the search space is 9! 12:38:22 and i think the *sshole who made this exercise has set up the state generation and the initial state 12:38:40 so that depth first search winds up going thru a huge number of states b4 getting to a solution, if you don't limit the depth 12:39:14 it gets to 2100 recursion calls before it runs out of stack space 12:39:19 heh. that wasn't a good question :) what I should have asked: how many levels is the search tree 12:39:43 adeht: depends on how it's called, there is a maxdepth paramater 12:39:48 there is a solution in 10 moves 12:39:49 -!- j0be [n=j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]"] 12:40:01 but if you don't set the max depth, it goes off on a random path down 2100 moves and dies 12:40:06 due to stack overflow 12:40:07 -!- nicklevinehome [n=chatzill@cpc1-cmbg14-2-0-cust14.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:40:18 so ... adeht .. using clisp, how do i give it a 1 gig stack ?? 12:40:42 konichiwa: I think clisp has 2mb stack space by default 12:40:57 adeht: i ran it as clisp -m 1000M 12:41:51 2100 calls should not be using that much memory, ad the function now has NO local variables AT ALL 12:42:08 i guess i will have to change it to a non-recursive function 12:43:36 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 12:43:36 you've got to compile the function for CLISP to do TCO (tail call elimination) 12:43:44 lnostdal: that won't help 12:43:54 konichiwa: did you try compiling the function? 12:44:02 adeht: good idea 12:44:07 adeht: how do i do that ? 12:44:16 (compile 'dfs) 12:44:24 and then i just call it as usual ? 12:44:29 yes 12:44:32 what will happen to my trace statements ? 12:44:36 they just get ignored ? 12:45:02 do you trace dfs or dfs-no-loop? (the latter is not possible to trace in standard CL) 12:45:17 adeht, i haven't seen the code or followed the discussion so i do not know .. but what i do know is that compiling a recursive function in CLISP that is laid out in a TCO-compatible style will enable you to recurse "forever" 12:45:31 that helped 12:45:41 i just stuck in a trace to print out the recursoin level 12:45:48 its now down to 7000 calls no crash yet 12:45:53 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-146-243.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:45:58 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:46:00 lnostdal: not all recursive functions are tail-recursive.. a dfs function for instance 12:46:10 yet given there are 360,000 states ... and i have no reason to think dfs wouldn't have to visit every single one 12:46:49 maybe there's a bug, but it does work when i set the maxDepth to anything but nil 12:47:13 well, to anything up to 110 12:47:18 haven't tried bigger than 110 12:47:21 konichiwa: maybe your gen-states is buggy 12:47:43 adeht: give that it works for maxDepth to 110, i don't think so. the gen states was given with the exercise 12:48:16 adeht: what do you think the largest number of moves you could make solving an 8 puzzle w/o repeating states might be ? 12:48:24 why couldn't it be 100,000 ? 12:48:40 this time it got to 15,000 recursion calls and then stack overflow 12:48:45 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-82-179.w90-25.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:49:05 -!- udzinari [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:49:30 the genstate seems to be set up so that it will try to move the blank in loops 12:49:56 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit ["Quitting"] 12:50:05 Oddity [n=Oddity@99.199.136.138] has joined #lisp 12:50:11 the dfs detects repeated states and stops when it repeats, but if genstate causes as many looopps as possible, you could get a really long soln 12:51:09 adeht: I'm not quite happy with the implementation, but I can show what I did 12:52:19 go ahead 12:54:07 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:08:53 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:50 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:06 hmm, i seem to have clobbered it. 13:11:44 adeht: at a high level, i added a color object, gave towers a color slot, added an affordablep GF, and changed the color based on affordability. 13:12:20 *Xach* puts it back together 13:12:57 is there a command to compile everything ? 13:13:16 konichiwa: do you use slime? 13:13:38 konichiwa: compile-file compiles an entire file. compile compiles an expression. slime puts those a couple keystokes away (C-c C-k and C-c C-c) 13:14:00 (compile-file "filae path") ?? 13:14:16 konichiwa: yes. if i'm not using slime, sometimes i use (load (compile-file "foo.lisp")) 13:14:30 konichiwa: but i more often set up an asdf system and use (asdf:load-system :foo) 13:14:48 minion, tell konichiwa about xach-asdf 13:14:48 konichiwa: look at xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 13:15:27 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B236D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:57 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:16:14 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:46 G'morning all. 13:18:36 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:18:48 hey nyef 13:19:42 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:20:09 Ah. We're in freeze. Yay. 13:20:14 nyef: what's the upshot of what you and pkhuong are hacking on? 13:20:20 Wider fixnums? 13:20:40 How wide? 13:20:54 63 bits on x86-64. 13:21:09 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:21:19 that is wide! 13:22:31 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:22:33 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 13:23:37 There's also a proposal on the table for an extra fixnum bit on 32-bit systems, but it would make CLOS typechecking slower by about one memory access, and has implications for heap allocation. 13:24:03 *Xach* would need to go to the city recycling center to find a 32-bit system 13:24:07 At least, I think that's the typecheck cost... 13:24:25 Oh, I semi-regularly build an x86 SBCL on my x86-64 host. 13:24:49 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-42-93.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 13:25:04 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-8492.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:25:19 You "just" have to hack a -m32 into about three different places, delete grovel-headers, and build with "SBCL_ARCH=x86 ./make.sh". 13:25:37 Yay for multilib systems, huh? 13:26:20 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 13:27:13 (Those three places are CFLAGS and LDFLAGS in Config.x86-linux and EXTRA_CFLAGS in asdf-module.mk.) 13:29:02 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:29:13 But, going back a bit, yes, it's as wide as you can make a fixnum on a 64-bit system and still involve a type tagging scheme. 13:29:26 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 13:29:33 Hello mgr. 13:30:49 hi nyef 13:31:11 I've tried a little bit of forth programming some days again. but sadly my dac chips were broken. 13:31:27 a little christmas project. :) 13:31:40 perhaps next year.. 13:31:48 (again -> ago) 13:31:56 man I'm doing the coolest hacks of my life here. it sucks that I'm trying to get into crazy-startup-mode and can't just brag about it all on my blog :) 13:32:25 heh 13:32:36 hi luke 13:32:47 howdy mgr :) 13:33:01 lukego: dang! 13:33:11 lukego: you can tell #lisp...i won't say a word. 13:33:43 hopefully I will quickly go bust and get to reveal it :) 13:34:57 I was quite surprised that I could port a somewhat larger visualation programm to windows without much pain! 13:35:02 if I manage to find a permanent place for lisp in all of this then I'm sure the temptation to spam snippets to #lisp will be overwhelming :) 13:35:13 opengl + cairo + 12 other libraries using windows SBCL. really nice. 13:35:34 mgr: nice! 13:35:41 took me a long afternoon, but that was all. 13:35:41 mgr: what project? 13:35:53 mgr: my latest feeling is that applications should be distributed as qemu images :) 13:36:26 unicode has some problems, still. but as I have only to print out a simple  (mu) there was a work-around. 13:36:47 hardware accelerated and all that. really nice and fast. 13:36:48 Xach: While I'm thinking about it, the other upshot is that we're cleaning up a rather pervasive assumption about the relationship between the number of tag bits on fixnums and the number of bytes in a word. 13:37:32 Ooh. Someone else using SBCL/Win32? 13:38:19 Xach: sadly I cannot tell much about it. it's a visualisation programm for a industrial simulation programm (a grinding process), also written in lisp. 13:38:48 -!- slash_ [n=unknown@p5DD1CEE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 13:38:59 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 13:39:22 nice. 13:39:49 the simulation runs on windows and linux and there is also an implementation in delphi (iehk), so I can say that sbcl is useful for number crunching on windows. sadly only single core. I've tried a parallel approach and it broke horribly, sometimes it crashes for two threads, and more than 5 runs never without a hard crash. even on linux, that's not really that nice. 13:40:26 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-209-251.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:41:09 mgr: have you tried on CCL? I'd be delighted to see something that checked its multithreading (or anything) with heavier load than my small experiments 13:41:18 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: gz] 13:41:41 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 13:42:15 I've tried scl, but that tumbled even over the simplest optimizations, that has not been nice. 13:43:38 Lispworks I've tried as well but even single core it was five times slower than sbcl. and I've consulted its documentation and implemented the suggested optimizations. 13:44:09 p_l: you think that ccl could compete and work with multithreading? also on windows? then I could give it a try.. 13:45:03 mgr: it is supposedly saner on win32/win64 (win64 being more stable than win32) 13:46:01 and how does it generally compare to sbcl with regard to number crunching (floating point)? 13:46:57 -!- lukjad007 is now known as lukjad1O0 13:47:10 -!- lukjad1O0 is now known as lukjad007 13:47:23 Clearly, once stupid-lowtag-tricks lands I'm going to have to spend some time looking at Win32 again. 13:47:30 mgr: it's slower, but it would be an interesting test of stability :-) 13:48:07 I've used it some years ago on my powerbook. the compilation process has been unbelievingly fast, while that code has not been that fast as sbcl's. 13:48:34 I've used it while development and switched to sbcl for optimization and delivery. 13:48:35 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:48:41 p_l: heh 13:48:54 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:50:12 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 13:54:55 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B236D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:01:42 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 14:02:05 pr [n=pr@p579CAF70.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:15 -!- Ni21 [n=makenja@mail.mobileplanet.co.ke] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:09:35 rlb3 [n=user@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:26 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 14:16:49 akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.209] has joined #lisp 14:17:32 -!- nipra [n=nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:18:10 ccl's floating point is really slow in my (admittedly toyish) experience 14:18:41 I think it just never unboxes anything 14:19:19 it does some unboxing 14:19:45 (upgraded-array-element-type 'double-float) => DOUBLE-FLOAT 14:21:52 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit ["blah .."] 14:24:13 Joreji [n=thomas@77-20-0-213-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:25:46 it does have specialized array types, yes, but I don't think it has enough smarts to unbox floats when doing actual arithmetics with them 14:26:05 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 14:26:11 never bothered to look at the disassembly though, so IMBW 14:27:47 freiksenet [n=freiksen@YYMMMCCCVII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 14:28:03 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.47.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:29:52 cmm-, it looks like CCL does use floating-point registers and some SSE2 instructions when you provide type declarations. 14:30:16 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:30:47 what means CCL? Clozure CL or CMU CL? 14:31:22 eldragon, Clozure CL. the latter is referred to as "CMUCL" or sometimes just "CMU". 14:31:43 and sometimes as "c'muckle" :) 14:31:54 ok 14:33:34 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:34:43 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@YYMMMCCCVII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:36:04 Adlai: I don't see how else one would perform floating point arithmetic (than by using fp registers and SSE2 instructions). Doesn't mean that the values aren't unboxed and boxed around each operation. 14:39:40 pkhuong: There's always software FP emulation! 14:39:43 fiveop [n=fiveop@p579EA304.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:10 nyef: would clos/struct type checking really be affected by losing instance-pointer-lowtag? 14:40:24 Where do we ever *only* check for instance-ness? 14:40:58 The lowtag saves you checking the header tag before pulling the class. 14:41:15 (Well, layout. Same principle.) 14:42:51 If we lose the lowtag, we then have to take the memory reference for the header proper to see that it even has a layout slot. The only mitigating circumstance that I can see is that it'll still be in the same cache line due to alignment requirements. 14:43:19 yeah, what I was thinking. We can load both words and then do the tests. 14:43:58 And we check for instance-ness in several places. 14:44:36 Typically, in a typecase that then says "do this with integers, this with conses, this with symbols, this with instances, etc." 14:44:41 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-10.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [] 14:44:47 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:18 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:46:56 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@77-20-0-213-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:51:47 nyef: The only place I see that is in equalp. 14:52:22 inspect? 14:52:29 There are some other cases, but they're not exactly speed sensitive: fasl dump/load, the reader, print, etc. 14:52:39 Oh, that's a GF anyway, nevermind... 14:52:51 Yeah, it's rarely speed-critical, but it does happen. 14:53:55 and the cost of instance checking in equalp isn't really important compared to that case's body. 14:55:56 -!- _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit ["ircII EPIC4-2.10.1 -- Are we there yet?"] 14:56:20 jordyd [n=jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:25 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:56:27 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 14:57:08 deepfire_ [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 14:57:14 -!- deepfire_ is now known as _deepfire 14:57:37 we check for instances pervasively in the compiler, don't we? 14:57:54 (since arguments are declared combination, lvar, ctran, etc.) 14:57:58 rittweil [n=rittweil@88-134-20-86-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:58:17 hi folks 14:58:24 Adlai: are you here? 14:58:40 rittweil, for a few more minutes, yes. I'm actually about to head home from work. 14:58:42 what's up? 14:59:11 Didn't you work on a renewal of Lisp in a box? 14:59:15 froydnj: but we check for struct-type, not just instanceness. 15:00:11 rittweil, a bit, yeah. I got it sort-of working with CCL on Windows XP and up-to-date slime and emacs a few months ago -- http://github.com/adlai/lispbox 15:00:48 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 15:01:24 pkhuong: but IIU nyef, that still means two memory references when before we had one? 15:01:30 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:01:47 Adlai: let me see 15:02:10 froydnj: yeah, but they're to adjacent addresses and at the same time. 15:02:15 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 15:02:39 Let me roll a microbenchmark up; I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter. 15:02:56 adlai: is that available as tar.gz too? 15:07:09 rittweil, sorry, it isn't. In a few hours I could check if it works and upload one. 15:07:30 Adlai: it's available as a feature provided by github it seems 15:07:43 pretty cool 15:08:39 rittweil, good point. 15:08:45 *Adlai* pushes a tag; check http://github.com/adlai/Lispbox/downloads 15:10:42 Adlai: How do you feel about having lispbox include a blob of libraries, as well? 15:10:59 libcl, for instance 15:11:22 it's a good idea, and gigamonkey has supported it too 15:11:26 sounds good; up-to-date lisp-in-a-box based on ccl, + libcl sounds something that's definitively market for 15:11:27 plediii [n=user@casentino.rice.edu] has joined #lisp 15:11:32 yeah 15:11:49 rittweil: tcr, right? 15:13:02 froydnj: As feedback to your latest posting; the selling point for it in my eyes was the bit about DRTR with inheritance. That's the benefit you get for reusing the complex protocol instead of going to the direct route. 15:13:05 sykopomp: yeah 15:13:18 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 15:14:51 First I wanted to try out the beta test of allegro 8.2 that I have been offered 15:14:55 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-30-144-9.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:14:59 rittweil: yeah, that example occurred to me kinda late. it probably should have been more prominently featured/the focus 15:15:02 but I was scared by the user license agreement 15:16:18 It's pretty preposterous: They ask volunteers to perform testing efforts for them for free, and then say in the agreement that all results of evaluation are confidental to Franz 15:16:41 I.e. they ask me to do work for them, and then exclude me from the right to brag about it to my friends 15:17:12 rittweil: i think it also precludes you from saying "wow, 8.2 is so terrible, it doesn't work at all in beta!" for things that will be fixed for release... 15:17:13 I remember being very scared by the free license they offered me for SLIME hacking too 15:18:17 Xach: Sure that's the intention. Doesn't sound to me like they have good faith in the quality of their beta releases, huh? 15:19:00 <_deepfire> Sounds like marketing takes them over. 15:19:00 lukego: Yeah that was my intention, looking for improving slime support; but the agreement seemed to forbid that, too! (And there were also some scary bits about competitive products...) 15:20:00 I firsted wanted to write them a mail and ask about clarification, they I thought why bother... there's no real benefit for me personally, and it could potentially lead to legal problems in the future 15:20:09 then I though 15:20:16 then I thought... 15:21:13 <_deepfire> A hint they're acting stupid might be appropriate, though. 15:21:49 I'd rather do that in persona if I ever have the chance 15:22:14 <_deepfire> Yeah, true.. 15:24:24 freiksenet [n=freiksen@YYMMMCCCVII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 15:25:44 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.186.208] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:26:07 so, the first memory access is 2 cycles (from L1), and the second is 1, on my opteron. 15:26:33 udzinari [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 15:26:35 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:27:00 I'd only worry about code bloat re instance checking. 15:27:27 rittweil: or their beta testers. 15:27:41 -!- rittweil [n=rittweil@88-134-20-86-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 15:27:58 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:27:58 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@ASt-Lambert-153-1-27-125.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:28:12 TR2N` [i=email@89.180.203.83] has joined #lisp 15:28:31 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:32 cmp $INSTANCE_WIDETAG, [EAX-OTHER_POINTER_LOWTAG] ? 15:28:47 Oh, and then a JZ/JNZ. 15:29:25 djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:35 6-9 octets each, I think. 15:30:42 what about testing for functionness 15:31:01 *nyef* completely forgot about funcallable-instances. 15:31:15 But we're not deallocating the function-pointer-lowtag, so that might help. 15:31:30 Or is there a type-pun there similar to the NIL hack? 15:31:31 I've lost track; what are your lowtags, in the end? 15:31:45 no, there shouldn't be; everything that's funcallable has function-pointer-lowtag 15:32:04 tychoish [n=tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:34 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.98.23] has joined #lisp 15:33:02 I've lost track of the mapping, but we end up with fun-pointer, other-pointer and list-pointer tags. 15:33:07 nyef: not quite, don't store the length of instances in the field? cmp $widetag, byte [ptr - o-p-l]? 15:33:22 pkhuong: Yeah, it's a byte compare. 15:33:23 *don't we store. 15:33:26 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["get back jojo"] 15:35:10 rittweil: yeah it was the "competitive product" and "reverse engineering" clauses that scared me off 15:35:23 Clearly, I'm going to have to write up what the lowtag changes would actually be. 15:35:28 -!- jordyd [n=jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:35:29 rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:45 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:37:24 It's the heap allocation changes that actually frighten me with this one. Conses have one alignment, and everything else has another. 15:37:56 good practice for when arrays become 16-byte aligned, then ;) 15:38:12 froydnj: everything but conses would be 16 byte aligned. 15:38:26 on 64-bit? 15:38:33 no, that's for 32 bit. 15:38:36 32-bit. 15:38:37 fun. 15:38:53 Conses would remain at 8-byte alignment. 15:38:55 the fun part being that the data vector would thus always be misaligned. 15:39:03 Meh. Pad it. 15:39:08 yeah. 15:39:26 (Part of me says "put a fill-pointer in there!") 15:39:36 *froydnj* thinks of all the people who want to use short vectors crying out in pain 15:39:36 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 15:40:03 funny thing that I could sign "no for reverse engineering" license in Poland and then happily reverse engineer the shit out of it making a "compatible product" 15:40:14 poles! 15:40:44 froydnj: for 64 extra bit? 15:41:01 p_l: If you do, though, don't ever enter the US. 15:41:09 Xach: polish law makes any "don't reverse engineer" clause illegal 15:41:24 nyef: It is something I advise already 15:42:53 pkhuong: yeah. although I suppose if everything is 16-byte aligned, then you're mostly moving the "wasted" space to the front of the array rather than the back 15:43:06 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-10.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 15:43:33 plus that's an extra 8 bytes per-symbol 15:44:18 -!- lusory [n=bart@bb121-6-212-182.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:44:45 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 15:45:58 *froydnj* still thinks trying to optimize for space is a reasonable goal 15:46:22 We'll just have to make it a configurable build-time feature! 15:46:30 *sykopomp* can already see his lisp image start off at 2G of res. 15:46:37 -!- rares [n=rares@174-22-228-98.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 15:46:52 froydnj: yeah, not sure how much the padding would have an effect considering the extra alignment. 15:49:16 lusory [n=bart@bb119-74-202-168.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:50:48 -!- legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-10-112.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:53:05 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 15:56:41 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:48 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439976.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:58:48 why not, instead of having a pointer mean the address with all the tag bits 0, have it mean the address such that the data vector becomes aligned? 15:59:27 that is, the other-pointer points not at xxxxxxx0, but at xxxxxxx8 16:02:47 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-82-179.w90-25.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 16:03:23 and you hope you squash useful data (a cons?) in [...xxx0 , ...xxx8]? 16:03:42 plage [n=user@123.19.66.10] has joined #lisp 16:03:48 Good evening! 16:03:52 froydnj: Yes, exactly! 16:04:00 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 16:05:23 The 32-bit wider-fixnum proposal is 4-bit lowtags, 8 fixnum lowtags, 4 other-pointer lowtags, 2 list-pointer lowtags, 1 fun-pointer lowtag and one other-pointer lowtag. Essentially, only two lowtags even have the same number of bits! 16:05:45 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-56-61.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:06:17 jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-26-204-23.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:06:20 Beyond stuffing a cons in that gap, remember that you also disalign the -end- of your allocation. 16:07:07 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-30-144-9.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:07:17 *froydnj* is not sure how often that cons stuffing would happen 16:07:38 _deepfire pasted "1.0.33.30: build failure on win32" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92574 16:07:45 also complicates both allocation and gc slightly 16:08:52 _deepfire: Unable to reproduce here. 16:09:20 froydnj: Then don't worry about it, you're only losing 4 words per alloc-region over your existing alignment requirements. 16:09:23 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@YYMMMCCCVII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:09:31 aerique [n=euqirea@rl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:11:52 -!- aerique [n=euqirea@rl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 16:17:11 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.51.84] has joined #lisp 16:18:09 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:22:15 not all 8 puzzle initial states can be solved in a reasonable amount of time using depth-first search 16:22:32 that's probably the problem i'm having ... found that statement in an online course reference 16:23:04 "8 puzzle"? 16:23:05 i'm gonna make a 6 puzzle that can ALWAYS be solved by depth first search, to fully test my implementation. then i'm done w/it =) 16:23:09 google it 16:23:19 Is this the sliding-blocks in a 3x3 grid? 16:23:25 yeah 16:23:43 Ah, so it is. 16:23:52 actually i'm going to make a 5 puzzle ... 3x2 grid 16:24:26 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:24:28 There's... a parity rule here, isn't there? 16:24:42 are you talking to me ? 16:24:43 About initial state validity. 16:25:06 i don't think so 16:25:23 however my initial state is valid, i have found the soln 16:25:34 by doing a depth-limited search 16:25:44 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:25:58 Can you solve for [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [8 7 _]]? 16:26:14 i don't know off-hand 16:26:29 I'm fairly sure you can't. 16:27:12 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:28:34 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:29:04 Ah, there's even a section on that in the page I found. "Detecting infeasible puzzles". 16:29:42 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 16:29:53 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.161.176] has joined #lisp 16:31:06 nicklevinehome [n=chatzill@cpc1-cmbg14-2-0-cust14.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:33:08 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 16:35:20 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:36:27 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:37:08 mstevens [n=mstevens@212.183.140.52] has joined #lisp 16:39:58 mstevens_ [n=mstevens@81.2.103.24] has joined #lisp 16:40:23 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.161.176] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:42:58 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176152206.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 16:43:32 konichiwa: A possibly interesting extension would be to allow for arbitrary goal states. 16:44:17 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-26-204-23.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:44:28 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 16:44:53 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:45:03 jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-29-193-199.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:46:20 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:46:39 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:22 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 16:49:26 _deepfire: I think I know what happened with your build, and it's environment-specific. You have AS=as when the runtime is building, while I have AS=gcc. 16:50:09 hi 16:50:25 which is the better data structure for making a cellular automaton in lisp? 16:51:39 -!- nicklevinehome [n=chatzill@cpc1-cmbg14-2-0-cust14.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:51:47 -!- plage [n=user@123.19.66.10] has left #lisp 16:52:32 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.98.23] has left #lisp 16:52:37 It rather depends on a number of factors. 16:52:58 One of which happens to be topology. 16:53:24 Another is the nature of the information associated with each cell. 16:54:17 However, you might find some flavor of array to be handy. 16:57:43 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@212.183.140.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:57:43 -!- mstevens_ is now known as mstevens 16:58:46 "the" "better" algorithm might be hashlife, but that's independent of which language it's being implemented in 17:00:10 yup, i implemented a 6 puzzle based on the 8 puzzle code, ran my depth-first search with out a depth limit, and it worked 17:00:39 the problem was just the exercise (intentionallhy i'm sure) gave an initial state for which depth first search traverses a large number of the 9! states 17:00:44 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-66-123.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:00:48 And that's algorithm, not data structure. 17:00:56 descends recursivel, i should say 17:01:04 when did i ever say it was a data structure ? 17:01:18 You didn't, topo did. 17:01:49 ummmm 17:02:17 in each cell theres just a number asociated with it 17:02:21 thats all 17:02:34 the puzzle could be thought of as a data structure 17:02:36 which do you think its the better datastructure for that? 17:02:41 the dsf is an algo 17:03:02 A "number"? Do you need to store taylor expansions for irrationals, or is there a more defined range than "number"? 17:03:08 froydnj: the suggestion is so that, if you have the right size of small (e.g. 2-element) vectors, you waste no space 17:03:21 or only 2 words per page, rather than two words per vector 17:03:43 the page ends up looking like xx1111222233334444... 17:03:46 And, again, topology is important. Is this in a hexagonal grid, a square grid, triangular, does it have edges, wrap around, is it a mobius loop, etc. 17:04:49 Krystof: ah, I see 17:08:32 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 17:11:36 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:12 dnolen [n=dnolen@ppp-70-249-155-206.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:53 From the "stupid reader tricks" department: #.` 17:16:15 Used as #.`(... ,@(when (= 64 n-word-bits) '...) ...) 17:17:19 nyef: for when constant folding isn't in the compiler yet, I guess? 17:17:41 zbeasnyy [n=mornfall@lbrat1-30-169.wmx.sk] has joined #lisp 17:18:11 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:18:23 rahul: For anywhere we have that execrable #!+#.(cl:if ...) construct. 17:19:53 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 17:23:49 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.161.176] has joined #lisp 17:24:48 milanj [n=milan@93.86.231.232] has joined #lisp 17:24:57 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:26:20 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:26:25 aerique [n=euqirea@rl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 17:28:10 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-22-5.client.stsn.net] has quit [] 17:30:16 nicklevinehome [n=chatzill@cpc1-cmbg14-2-0-cust14.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:30:33 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:33:27 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:37:53 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:38:31 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-191-112.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:46:40 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-191-112.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 17:47:12 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@81.2.103.24] has quit [] 17:49:02 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:50:02 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-29-193-199.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:51:58 -!- nicklevinehome [n=chatzill@cpc1-cmbg14-2-0-cust14.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:53:25 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:54:16 jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-31-171-171.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:58:30 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 17:59:33 dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-123-121.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:02 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-66-123.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:03:13 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 18:05:26 attila_lendvai__ [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:06:17 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-123-121.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 18:07:00 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:10:17 <_deepfire> nyef, is your hypothesis compatible with "$(echo $AS)" == "" ? 18:11:13 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 18:12:28 <_deepfire> This is mingw, btw. 18:13:41 -!- attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:13:43 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-66-123.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:14:37 astalla [n=astalla@net-93-150-89-19.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 18:15:22 lichtblau: ping 18:15:42 -!- udzinari [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:18:23 lispm [n=joswig@f054052136.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:21:42 -!- ejs [n=eugen@83-23-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:21:46 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 18:21:50 -!- rlb3 [n=user@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:22:50 lagenar [n=lucas@190.246.103.241] has joined #lisp 18:23:20 -!- lagenar [n=lucas@190.246.103.241] has quit ["Saliendo"] 18:23:49 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:49 _deepfire: At the shell, or as part of a makefile rule? 18:28:33 -!- zbeasnyy [n=mornfall@lbrat1-30-169.wmx.sk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:28:36 <_deepfire> nyef, beginning to understand what you're getting at.. at the shell, yes 18:29:13 Try setting AS=gcc at the shell and then building. If make inherits a value for AS it shouldn't default it. 18:29:27 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:52 <_deepfire> nyef, recompiling.. 18:30:00 (For a while now I've been wondering about moving arch-assem.S to assembly-routines in the core, this has made more sense twice now over the past week.) 18:30:32 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-31-171-171.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:30:40 jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-28-108-27.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:31:43 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:15 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:57 nyef: yes please. will also eliminate pointless suggestions about moving to nasm, too 18:34:15 <_deepfire> nyef, it exploded again, on the same file but for a different reason, pasting 18:35:04 _deepfire annotated #92574 "x86-assem.S again" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92574#1 18:36:36 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-191-112.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:38:48 luis: ping 18:43:19 snearch [n=olaf@g225051191.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:43:51 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:47:08 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-66-123.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:48:47 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #lisp 18:49:04 zbeasnyy [n=mornfall@lbrat1-30-169.wmx.sk] has joined #lisp 18:50:52 -!- astalla [n=astalla@net-93-150-89-19.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:51:24 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:52:14 -!- snowbeard [n=user@cpe-065-190-191-189.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:53:27 -!- djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:54:05 froydnj: So noted. I'll add it to my queue, at least for x86oids. 18:54:45 _deepfire: Looks like it's trying to link as well as assemble. 18:55:11 -!- zbeasnyy [n=mornfall@lbrat1-30-169.wmx.sk] has quit [Client Quit] 18:55:34 <_deepfire> nyef, not being passed -c, yeah 18:56:09 Still should be doable in terms of setting AS, though. 18:56:51 <_deepfire> re-firing with AS="gcc -c" 18:57:33 <_deepfire> I wouldn't have thought it could work.. 18:59:07 JonSmith [n=jon@c-71-233-58-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:11 <_deepfire> nyef, it's through! 19:00:37 Yay. 19:00:44 ejs [n=eugen@83-23-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:48 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-135.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:37 moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 19:02:33 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:03:42 -!- ejs [n=eugen@83-23-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:04:18 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-109-64-113-230.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:05:37 freiksenet [n=freiksen@YYYKDLXXXV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 19:06:53 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:08:52 <_deepfire> nyef, build successful, including sb-posix; only failure being sb-simple-streams. 19:09:00 <_deepfire> Thank you! 19:09:48 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:50 Reav_ [n=Sarge@41.221.87.249] has joined #lisp 19:18:15 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:21:17 Axius [n=ade@92.84.27.68] has joined #lisp 19:25:24 how does one deal with circular dependencies with asdf 19:25:27 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:25:51 <_deepfire> Guthur, you mean the ASDF:CIRCULAR-DEPENDENCY condition? 19:26:11 _deepfire: probably hehe 19:26:12 thanks 19:26:33 <_deepfire> Guthur, why do you ask, btw? 19:27:03 i have one with two files 19:27:15 probably could organise a little better 19:27:18 so don't make them depend circularly 19:27:28 what do you expect asdf to do? 19:27:51 <_deepfire> Interestingly, ASDF used to allow circular dependencies. 19:28:09 _deepfire: um how many decades ago? 19:28:17 <_deepfire> Less than two years ago. 19:28:25 <_deepfire> In clbuild era. 19:28:30 right, because more than two years ago, it didn't 19:28:44 <_deepfire> It may still be the case actually. 19:29:06 _deepfire: circular deps in a build are impossible to deal with 19:29:13 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-28-108-27.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:29:18 Its for X system Window and Context creation, i wanted to move the glX code into a separate file, it is used by the X window creation code and in turn wants some from the X window code 19:29:19 it is a meaningless concept 19:29:28 <_deepfire> I mean inter-system deps, not intra-system. 19:29:35 probably could organise it to remove the dependency 19:29:54 <_deepfire> Not that it changes much, but still. 19:30:05 Guthur: well, you'd have to 19:30:57 _deepfire: as long as the meaning of the dependency is not in-order-to load x, load y and vice versa 19:31:33 you can have in order to run x, load y and in order to compile y, load x 19:31:46 but then the first dep is irrelevant to asdf 19:33:58 <_deepfire> Ok, I don't know, trivial-features.asd doesn't declare a dependency on cffi, au contraire to what clbuild/dependencies says 19:34:05 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.84.27.68] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:34:48 <_deepfire> I still had to implement a loop-safe dependency unwinder for desire two years ago. 19:35:21 anyone who has a dependency loop hasn't understood programming yet 19:35:33 they've just studied theoretical paradigms 19:35:47 <_deepfire> rahul, this is in conflict with clbuild/dependencies 19:36:00 _deepfire: that's not a build dependency 19:36:02 <_deepfire> I don't understand the issue well enough to have an opinion. 19:36:12 and you're saying that cffi requires trivial-features, too? 19:37:01 <_deepfire> cffi depends on trivial features, but the opposite is not true 19:37:12 then what are you on about? 19:37:48 <_deepfire> If you were careful enough to read, I attributed this to the past. 19:38:10 some phantom memory you have of something that may or may not have existed... 19:38:27 I'm not even sure what past thing you attributed it to 19:38:28 well it is sorted, was only a simple thing, not sure the original author of this is going to like all my restructuring though 19:38:35 but whatever, it's an impossibility 19:38:41 <_deepfire> sure, sure 19:38:53 and I'm going to the post office 19:39:04 and the barber I guess... and maybe Macy's too :P 19:39:47 -!- attila_lendvai__ [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 19:40:59 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:41:28 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-28-173-200.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:45:04 <_deepfire> trivial-features-tests the-system depends on both t-f the-system an cffi the-system, which depends on t-f the-system 19:45:36 <_deepfire> the complete intermodule dependency is therefore a loop, but the system dependency graph is a DAG 19:46:47 <_deepfire> Perhaps I was building an intermodule dependency graph two years ago.. 19:46:54 <_deepfire> Sounds most plausible.. 19:48:22 <_deepfire> Anyway, my original statement that ASDF used to allow circular deps sounds like crap. 19:57:45 Guest10407 [n=kes@c-24-20-168-5.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:06 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:05:12 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:06:23 udzinari [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 20:06:47 kes [n=kes@c-24-20-168-5.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:07 -!- kes is now known as Guest36180 20:07:31 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-28-173-200.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:07:53 -!- Guest36180 [n=kes@c-24-20-168-5.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:09:20 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@YYYKDLXXXV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:15:20 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:17:32 freiksenet [n=freiksen@YYYKDLXXXV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 20:18:55 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-14-212.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 20:19:46 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@YYYKDLXXXV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:23:21 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:30 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:32:28 jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-52-238.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:36:38 ejs [n=eugen@109-167-1-212.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 20:37:48 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:38:32 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 20:40:48 -!- dmiles [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:45:05 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 20:46:17 -!- aerique [n=euqirea@rl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["leaving"] 20:46:38 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.231.232] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:47:04 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-25-12.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:51 milanj [n=milan@93.86.188.99] has joined #lisp 20:50:40 -!- moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:51:17 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 20:52:48 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:55:18 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:57:55 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:58:09 nybbles [n=nybbles@CPE000ae6ad1ea9-CM00169240d79c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:59:33 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:05:00 kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-173-63-104-207.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:03 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-179-51-253.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:09:31 ... There was something that I'd gotten the nod for changing in the runtime, provided that the data was exported from genesis, and it's escaped me precisely what it was. :-/ 21:13:56 -!- ejs [n=eugen@109-167-1-212.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:21:53 pr_ [n=pr@p579CAA14.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:14 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:22:26 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-10.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [] 21:22:50 hi 21:23:08 in which cases is better to use arrays and in which cases is better to uses vectors as data structures? 21:23:16 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-10.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 21:23:48 topo: vector is a subtype of array 21:23:55 a vector is a 1 dimensional array 21:24:12 oh, so its the same in speed? 21:24:23 one is a subset of the other 21:24:45 simple-arrays will be faster, in general 21:24:57 ok thanks 21:24:59 last question 21:25:04 in sbcl 1-d simple-arrays are very fast 21:25:33 (not to be confused with simple-vectors which are 1-d simple arrays that aren't specialized for storing any specific type 21:25:38 somebody told me this yesterday: 21:25:41 "if you want to iterate over a 3d array, you could try using three nested dotimes forms, using the indices from each one as indices into the array: ie, in the middle , youd have something like (frbo (aref i j k ))" 21:25:47 this is not the same as using nth inside a list? 21:25:57 sigh 21:25:58 -!- pr_ is now known as pr 21:25:59 or is there any difference , making aref inside an array and nth inside a list? 21:26:01 topo: do you know what a list is? 21:26:04 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-117-173.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 21:26:07 and do you know what an array is? 21:26:15 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-173-58-53-23.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:26:21 datastructures 21:26:25 . . . 21:26:45 topo: But do you know how they're _represented_? 21:26:50 jordyd [n=jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:57 topo: what other languages have you used? 21:26:59 The difference between them. 21:27:12 yes 21:27:15 list are made of cons 21:27:18 topo: how would you use nth in this case? 21:27:23 conscells 21:27:35 topo: so how do you find the nth element in a chain of cons cells? 21:27:36 i have used python 21:27:38 also c 21:27:45 also java 21:28:05 it reads always from the begining 21:28:05 topo: do you know the difference between a java LinkedList and an ArrayList? 21:28:15 I am told that learning Lisp is more difficult if you already know a language 21:28:19 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-10.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:28:21 or have you created linked lists in C? 21:28:22 thats why is not effective to do nth inside a chain of ocns cells 21:28:39 topo: and how do you get the nth element of an array? 21:28:41 i have used arraylist 21:28:53 because i can grow my arrays and are faster than vector 21:29:05 what? 21:29:06 but dunno how internally works 21:29:15 ejs [n=eugen@109-167-1-212.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 21:29:19 do you know how arrays get grown? 21:29:22 im a selfmade programmer 21:29:23 no 21:29:32 if you're self made you should know this better 21:29:35 dunno the internal machism 21:29:43 mechanism 21:29:49 and what array and vector are you talking about? 21:29:56 the java ones 21:30:03 the vector class 21:30:05 If you can't do it in C then I don't think you understand it 21:30:09 -!- nybbles [n=nybbles@CPE000ae6ad1ea9-CM00169240d79c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 21:30:12 java vectors and arraylists have exactly the same speed and growth ability 21:30:17 they're basically identical 21:30:21 no 21:30:23 yes 21:30:33 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-52-238.iburst.co.za] has quit ["leaving"] 21:30:59 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 21:31:07 vectors just predate the collections library so their API isn't consistent with the collections interfaces 21:31:28 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:31:48 ummm 21:32:03 internally, the implementation is basically identical 21:32:25 maybe there's some differences in terms of synchronization, yeah 21:32:38 vectors might be synchronized 21:32:39 *topo* thinks 21:33:07 don't think. know. 21:33:11 look at the javadocs 21:33:26 no! don't! look at the CLHS. 21:33:26 I learned all this when I was a self made programmer 21:33:29 heh 21:33:52 well, yeah. you know java badly enough that you can just give up on understanding it :) 21:34:51 -!- Reav_ [n=Sarge@41.221.87.249] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:35:07 hey rahul 21:35:24 i was looking the explanation why arraylist if faster than vector in my notebook 21:35:26 i found it : 21:35:29 "If you need to grow the storage area, ArrayList is probably better (Vector is old and slow...), as something like append() creates a new array of same size plus one, copies the old data there and put the appended data at the last position. Quite costly" 21:35:51 rahul when you were a self made programmer? 21:35:57 have you been redefined 21:36:07 hehe 21:36:25 Guthur, CL hackers don't get redefined, they get REINITIALIZE-INSTANCEd 21:38:55 Adlai: UPDATE-INSTANCE-FOR-REDEFINED-CLASS. 21:39:30 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.203.83] has left #lisp 21:40:42 actually, this case seems closer to UPDATE-INSTANCE-FOR-DIFFERENT-CLASS 21:41:03 although one could argue that rahul is in a class of his own 21:41:36 (change-class rahul (make-instance 'non-standard-class :direct-superclasses (list 'self-made-programmer 'amateur-quantum-mechanicist 'music-promoter 'politician 'experienced-software-architect 'computer-scientist)) 21:42:03 topo: that's what arraylist does 21:42:17 ummm 21:42:26 dunno 21:42:37 ArrayList and Vector are both implemented the same way as extendable arrays in CL 21:42:46 vector-push-extend 21:42:50 i was talking about java 21:43:01 is there are arraylist in common lisp? 21:43:34 topo: (make-array '(1) :extendable t) 21:43:48 :adjustable 21:43:53 clhs make-array 21:43:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm 21:43:54 er yeah 21:44:10 my IRC client doesn't give me slime-arglist :P 21:44:12 (make-array '(1) :adjustable t) 21:45:27 topo, I don't think you want adjustable arrays for your simulation, though. If you just need a 3D grid of fixnums, use a (SIMPLE-ARRAY FIXNUM (X Y Z)) ie (make-array (list x y z) :element-type 'fixnum) 21:45:52 adjustale arrays means that i can grow my array? 21:46:19 it means you can ADJUST-ARRAY your array 21:46:22 13:43:56 < rahul> my IRC client doesn't give me slime-arglist :P 21:46:24 that is an awesome idea 21:46:32 and VECTOR-PUSH-EXTEND will do that for you 21:47:04 ... if you have a fill-pointer 21:47:11 ... says the guy using irssi 21:47:12 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:13 what does it means "adjust-array"? 21:47:34 clhs adjust-array 21:47:34 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_adjust.htm 21:47:36 topo, why don't you ask your friend the specbot. I think I introduced the two of you earlier today. 21:47:54 clhs arraylist 21:47:54 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for arraylist. 21:48:08 topo: are you confusing CL with Java? 21:48:10 clhs cellular-automata 21:48:10 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for cellular-automata. 21:48:17 clhs vector 21:48:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_vector.htm 21:48:20 \o/ 21:48:27 Houston, we have a vector! 21:48:29 cool 21:48:33 topo: specbot only looks in the CL spec. 21:48:48 ok 21:48:58 Adlai: do not ever declare something as fixnum 21:49:14 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 21:49:35 Adlai: you never know what fixnum means, and if you know that anything fixnum could be is right, then you know something to declare it as that's better than fixnum 21:50:23 good point. the declaration also provides some "self documentation" that way. 21:50:27 there is an anime where the main character make a cellular automata with lisp 21:50:41 she uses make-array 21:50:43 http://lemonodor.com/archives/images/lain-lisp.jpg 21:52:20 fiveop_ [n=fiveop@p579EA304.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:20 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@p579EA304.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:54:10 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439976.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 21:54:20 topo: lain?! 21:54:31 yes , japanese anime 21:54:38 I know about lain. 21:54:40 wow :P 21:54:49 its good 21:55:07 lisp is big in japan 21:55:21 as is dragonforce 21:55:28 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_Experiments_Lain 21:55:39 Japanese people are weirdos! 21:55:42 rahul: Dragonforce is big everywhere! 21:56:11 I bet she was using KCL 21:56:32 I think Lain is from around that time? 21:56:33 *sykopomp* checks. 21:57:15 sellout: heh yeah now they are 21:58:38 oh no, it far predates it. 22:05:46 gaaahhh 22:05:58 class redefinition is crazy to deal with 22:07:39 baaahhh 22:07:44 sheeple is fun to play with 22:08:36 meh, been there done that 22:08:52 and my prototypes library is faster than sheeple :P 22:09:19 -!- kwinz3 [i=kwinz@213142100007.public.telering.at] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:09:27 right now I'm trying to make formulated classes deal with class redefinition correctly 22:09:34 kwinz3_ [i=kwinz@212067232036.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 22:09:39 because right now it's actually as bad as excel :P 22:09:59 (or as bad as sheeple would be ;) 22:10:29 I think I need to keep the formula in the slotds 22:12:03 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:12:26 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:12:58 slotds are re-created on class redefinition right? 22:13:03 not reinitialized 22:13:34 I guess eslotds need to be recreated but dslotds could be reinitialized theoretically 22:14:46 rahul: So, what's the motivation behind formulate? Just trying to crush Kenny's spirit? 22:15:21 hi sellout 22:15:32 fe[nl]ix: Hey, how goes? 22:16:07 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:16:36 excellent, Watson^Wsellout :) 22:16:37 sellout: cells is messy 22:16:58 and it doesn't really support what I really want to do, which is make a replacement for excel 22:17:15 I've actually created a simple GUI 22:17:18 sellout: how about we release B-T ? 22:17:54 fe[nl]ix: Sounds good ... is that still something I need to do? 22:17:56 but I realized when I redefined a class, the changes in formulae weren't propagated to existing instances because the formula is stored in the formulator node, which is per-slot 22:17:59 I should fix that ... 22:18:26 and I don't feel like typing (c8 ...) in my code 22:18:37 where the 8 stands for infinite 22:18:47 heh 22:18:52 "for values of 8 approaching infinity" 22:20:07 rahul: what does that do ? 22:20:33 rittweil [n=rittweil@88-134-20-86-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:20:58 fe[nl]ix: I don't know 22:21:16 something to do with infinity :P 22:21:26 maybe he's finding a fixed point or something? 22:21:48 the only "C infinity" I know doesn't seem to be related to Cells 22:22:13 shrug 22:22:23 there's one in cells 22:22:24 float inf? 22:24:18 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.110.205] has joined #lisp 22:25:30 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:27:19 sellout: so it's ok if I make a release now ? 22:28:40 fe[nl]ix: Yeah, totally. BT is effectively yours now, do with it as you will. 22:29:07 hmmm 22:29:26 taking over wasn't exactly what I wanted :D 22:29:53 you don't always get what you want 22:29:58 fe[nl]ix: Heh, well then feel free to lean on me  but you're so much more proactive than I ever was. 22:30:24 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 22:31:29 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-219.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:31:34 is there some existing election algorithms / distributed computing codebase for lisp ? 22:32:14 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-219.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:44 -!- Guest10407 [n=kes@c-24-20-168-5.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:33:48 erlisp, netclos 22:34:24 but in general, prepackaged libraries for this stuff break down quickly 22:36:33 hardware failure is the most common occurrence in such systems 22:36:41 sometimes more common than getting a result :) 22:36:57 :) 22:39:18 (what I mean is that it's likely that one machine will have a hardware failure for each computation done by the cluster) 22:40:18 and so, anything that does RPC-style distribution will be a problem 22:40:18 i was looking for building a distributed data structure, so was curious if there was some code to begin with 22:40:34 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.161.176] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:45:50 -!- snearch [n=olaf@g225051191.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:46:56 rvirding [n=chatzill@h69n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:48:57 cmsimon [n=cms@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 22:49:57 alec [n=alec@adsl-179-22-176.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:30 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.51.84] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:51:49 nybbles [n=nybbles@CPE000ae6ad1ea9-CM00169240d79c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:53:19 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:44 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.161.176] has joined #lisp 22:58:52 -!- cmsimon [n=cms@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit ["brb."] 22:59:23 -!- udzinari [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:05:31 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.196.143] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 23:09:41 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:12:41 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:17:54 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-71-197-180-162.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:07 -!- ejs [n=eugen@109-167-1-212.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:25:11 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:27:09 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:29:47 -!- rittweil [n=rittweil@88-134-20-86-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 23:31:37 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:40:44 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 23:41:02 HG` [n=HG@xdslfg222.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:43:14 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslfg222.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:48:01 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:14 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 23:58:15 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B236D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp