00:00:07 Gtk has a horrid initialization mechanism 00:00:16 i wanted separate opengl contexts in one window 00:00:16 Qt is in C++, nuff said there 00:00:28 um opengl is totally different 00:00:40 you'd be using glut then, no? 00:00:41 was afraid that might be so 00:00:47 glfw 00:00:54 glfw? 00:01:23 cross platform window thing, with input as well 00:01:30 is it supposed to be a replacement for glut? 00:01:44 glut isn't something you would use in a real app 00:01:52 its only meant for demos 00:02:22 demos? 00:02:31 opengl demos 00:03:00 when learning mostly or possibly showing some technique 00:03:11 Guthur: Not really... it's quite common on X11, iirc 00:03:19 Guthur: how so? 00:03:27 p_l the general consensus is glut is crap 00:03:36 glfw is just as easy to use 00:03:39 glfw doesn't seem much different 00:03:57 Guthur: that means that glfw is rather painful 00:04:16 gnome is better than Qt if you need to interface to a language with a dynamic object system, like CLOS 00:04:28 rahul: it seems ok, the input handling leave a little to be desired 00:04:29 Guthur: I think the consensus is about 'classic' glut because you can't break the event loop. This is not the case with cl-glut which uses freeglut 00:04:38 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:20 -!- YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:05:26 not sure about sharing gl context with glut though 00:05:49 patzy: not sure on freeglut, i will admit i just accepted the consensus view that glut is not meant for anything beyond prototyping some opengl examples 00:06:09 Guthur: isn't that where glut is weak too? 00:06:13 hbock [n=hbock@pool-96-253-35-189.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:25 rahul: possibly i never tried it, hehe 00:06:34 just went straight to glfw 00:06:44 there is lispy bindings as well 00:06:59 Guthur: inputting a 2d pointer in a 3d space is probably going to be confusing no matter what you do 00:07:40 well, no one is stopping you from using glfw if you can get it to work 00:08:20 rahul, screen space to world space isn't to bad, the maths is quite available now with the increased popularity in the screen space rendering techniques like deferred rendering 00:08:20 but I don't see the point of your original question then if you were trying to get us to tell you that you need to use glfw to use glfw 00:08:39 Guthur: it's going to be odd no matter what, conceptually 00:08:52 rahul glfw does do MDI 00:08:56 doesn't* 00:09:06 yacin [n=yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 00:09:06 the maths have been around for about 2000 years 00:09:11 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@192.228.209.26] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:09:17 -!- merl15 [n=merl@80-121-69-74.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:09:24 Guthur: I don't see what opengl has to do with mdi anyway 00:09:28 freely available on the internet? 00:09:34 -!- udzinari` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:09:41 there was me thinking the internet was recent thing 00:09:49 Guthur: yes, they've been on the internet that Julius Caesar built 00:10:01 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:10:21 rahul: look back i never mentioned opengl in the original question 00:10:32 actually, they've probably only been really well studied since 1750 or so 00:10:51 Guthur: which is why your original question is misleading to us 00:11:17 Guthur: you cannot have multiple opengl contexts, period, with consumer 3d cards 00:11:18 how so 00:11:30 Guthur: because 2d and 3d are different things, duh 00:11:42 how so was for the misleading 00:11:57 yes, I know 00:12:11 no 2d toolkit will get you good 3d support 00:12:19 and actually 2d doesn't exist in the consumer hardware anymore, besides the buffer if you count that 00:12:24 and no 3d toolkit will change your hardware 00:12:31 um 00:12:42 the are pure 3D cards 00:12:45 Guthur: are you going to stop insisting on making a fool of yourself 00:12:46 ? 00:12:59 2D hardware process was removed a long time ago 00:13:01 there is only one pure 3d card ever made for consumer graphics 00:13:23 voodoo and voodoo 2 ... so 2 technically 00:13:34 Guthur: you are so wrong it's not funny 00:13:42 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 00:14:23 Guthur: are you trying to claim that there is no draw rect operation implemented in video cards any more? 00:14:28 well if i was wrong how come every single implementation of a sprite engine uses 3d quads 00:14:43 it's all done like it was done on the Mac Plus? 00:14:47 those are quads 00:14:56 what? 00:15:03 sprites are orthogonal to this 00:15:04 d3dxsprite is a 3d quad 00:15:09 haha 00:15:14 Guthur: you are an idiot 00:15:19 "d3d" 00:15:37 Guthur: sprites are blits of bitmaps 00:16:02 sprites are as fast as unaccelerated graphics goes 00:16:08 that's the whole point of them 00:16:34 and you use an MTRR these days to blit them to the video card's frame buffer 00:17:48 how do you get access to that framebuffer then 00:18:10 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:18:17 however you OS exposes it 00:18:29 maybe you want SDL? 00:18:57 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:18:58 your OS owns the framebuffer 00:19:17 i would have thought its the graphics driver 00:19:27 duh 00:19:47 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:19:57 the graphics driver is the part of the OS whose job it is to mediate communication between applications and the graphics device 00:20:33 Guthur: are you trying to achieve something or are you just trying to make random statements? 00:20:50 assuming you let the OS do the mediation... 00:21:08 p_l: if you don't, then you are the OS 00:21:20 *p_l* for a long time used MPlayer with direct framebuffer access (by direct, I meant straight to video card bypassing the whole OS) 00:21:49 p_l: not quite true. mplayer doesn't program the device registers, as I understand those drivers. 00:22:22 oh, I think for some it kind of uses a backdoor provided by linux 00:22:22 rahul: it called firmware on video card to take care of device-dependent elements 00:22:49 there was no backdoor, just "give me access to video card's memory" 00:22:55 p_l: but anyway, video is separate from 2d graphics 00:23:07 at least, if it's accelerated, and in those drivers it is 00:23:24 rahul: that was unaccelerated VESA framebuffer :) 00:23:37 p_l: oh, this is -vo vesa 00:23:50 yeah, that's pretty much direct 00:24:11 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:24:37 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9329.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:25:06 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-82-106.w90-25.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:25:28 there's also DGA in X, but I think that's only a framebuffer 00:25:30 also, MTRRs don't blit anything iirc, just state different memory access modes to cpu (the memory-related ones) 00:25:38 DGA afaik got removed 00:25:58 it was a pathway for accelerated drivers 00:26:08 p_l: well, you can program a transfer and the MTRRs set up will tell the system how to optimize the transfer 00:26:33 eh... it was for applications, not drivers 00:26:34 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:26:58 basically gave them full control of the video and input devices 00:27:34 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:27:53 rahul: I meant as "pathway from application to device" - driver's were supposed to set part of it and do some management, iirc 00:28:05 p_l: ok yeah 00:28:31 anyway, Guthur has changed his story so many times I have no clue what he hopes to achieve 00:29:07 rahul: i never changed anything 00:29:13 i only asked about MDI 00:29:16 didn't go anywhere and now I think it went back to old model of driver-specific methods when you talk, for example, GL (XV takes care of video management but leaves the same amount of detail to driver, iiirc) 00:29:22 thats all 00:29:43 yes i mentioned opengl, but with no specific query in that regard 00:30:39 Guthur: well, you can't get multiple GL overlays. 00:31:01 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 00:31:46 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:32:55 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:33:25 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 00:34:17 rahul: I'm not sure, last few generations of cards were iirc required to have hw context switching routines, to support multiple contexts 00:34:22 minion: say what 00:34:23 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 00:34:23 wgl, memo from gigamonkey: Went well. Finished 55,000+ words and got to "The End". I hope to tidy it up and may even put it up for sale on Create Space just for grins. 00:34:52 -!- billitch [n=billitch@fac34-6-82-240-131-189.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 00:35:18 p_l do you mean in the same thread 00:35:59 not sure how the windows in MDI environment are handled 00:36:08 p_l: interesting 00:36:15 separate windows can have their own context of course 00:36:18 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.203.85] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:36:30 teiresias [n=user@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #lisp 00:36:33 Guthur: MDI just means you can drag some sections of the main window around 00:36:47 p_l: but what about overlays? 00:37:34 Guthur: also, MDI looks horrible if you're using X, since you now have two different types of windows that look and feel different 00:37:58 p_l: I suspect that's only for applications that want to use the 3d hardware for computation 00:38:20 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:38:51 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:06 rahul: iirc overlays are bit obscure due to being used only by certain kinds of applications, but DX10 required hw context switching, though I heard it got dropped at some point (with few cards already supporting it - it's kind of required at least in software, I think) 00:40:23 p_l: well, any application that wants a 3d view inside of a window 00:40:33 basically, anything that's not a game :) 00:40:37 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:40:48 milanj [n=milan@77.46.202.7] has joined #lisp 00:41:47 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 00:42:26 rahul: pretty sure that's not what overlays are. 00:42:42 an overlay is when you've got two opengl contexts rendering to the same image 00:42:58 or something along those lines... 00:43:01 rahul: it was iirc caused by the fact that NT6.x's DWM renders the whole desktop using 3D system 00:43:33 p_l: fwiw, NT6, at least under my use, shuts that off when you start up a 3D app. 00:43:52 Ralith: that happens when you have an OpenGL app, most of the time 00:43:59 at least on nvidia drivers 00:44:13 D3D apps don't seem to have problems with that 00:44:57 -!- phf [n=phf@c-76-124-103-85.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 00:47:53 I dunno if that's the case, but I can't say much for sure. 00:48:55 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:56:25 p_l: I'm talking about linux 00:56:35 the hardware doesn't support multiple GL overlays 00:56:58 rahul: if you talk about overlays, sure 00:57:10 that's what I was talking about, yes :) 00:57:17 that's what Guthur was talking about, supposedly 00:57:24 if you're talking about contexts, getting two working at once is common place even on stinking old hw like mine 00:57:35 having an MDI of GL windows 00:57:40 rahul: works 00:57:59 someguyasfsdf [n=user@h69-130-132-182.cncrtn.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:59 p_l: ... but that requires multiple overlays... one for each visible window 00:58:11 rahul: nope 00:58:15 rahul: i was thinking the windows are separate entities with the top level acting like a container, sorry if it wasn't clear 00:58:34 actually, unless you modify the card/drivers, you won't get *any* overlay on most consumer card 00:58:40 Guthur: a window is a part of the screen where the windowing system lets you draw 00:58:48 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-135.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:58:48 p_l: huh? 00:59:07 p_l: so you're saying that consumer cards no longer support GL in a window? 00:59:08 rahul: GL overlays are something wildly different than GL display 00:59:40 p_l: what is a GL display? 00:59:41 rahul: you are going too low level 00:59:53 Guthur: you want something your hardware does not support 00:59:54 what you're talking about is just rendering a viewport of a context (not sure about terminology) onto a space in output framebuffer 01:00:16 i want multiple windows to draw in, contained within another window 01:00:19 p_l: no, the hardware doesn't even put in in the framebuffer 01:00:36 GL *overlays* are usually used by stuff like Maya, Houdini etc. 01:00:44 p_l: it uses a pinkish color, usually 01:01:01 (in the framebuffer) 01:01:25 p_l: or previews in CAD apps, or whatever 01:01:27 rahul: you've a framebuffer that is read by RAMDAC. Whether it's acccesible to software side or not, it doesn't matter 01:01:49 p_l: no, I think it does things differently even then 01:02:04 Anyone know whether SBCL's launchpad bug activity is available through gmane? 01:02:06 oh wait, the pinkish thing is usually when the VGA is fed to another physical device 01:02:41 rahul: the pinkish color happens usually when you misroute output of different units in graphic card :) 01:02:56 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 01:02:57 rahul: that guy seems to do it http://www.codeguru.com/cpp/g-m/opengl/article.php/c2689/ 01:03:11 like putting accelerated video display onto an output that isn't fed (so you get the mask color) 01:03:16 rather successfully for it not being supported 01:04:00 *p_l* just openeded several OpenGL, accelerated windows :) 01:04:31 X11 overlays are a powerful mechanism for drawing annotations etc., on top of an image without destroying it, thus saving a great deal of image rendering time. For more information, consult the highly recommended book OpenGL Programming for the X Window System (Mark Kilgard, Addison Wesley Developers Press 1996).  01:05:23 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f050233249.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:05:36 usually, when you enable overlays in graphic cards, you loose XVideo or similar 01:06:54 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:07:25 eh. X11 overlays aren't to do with GL overlays, afaict 01:07:33 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:41 rahul: except that those overlays might be GL-rendered :) 01:07:43 p_l: because GL and Xv fight over the overlay feature 01:07:50 p_l: ah ok, that makes sense 01:08:30 So, basically, you can have GL + Xv overlays, or GL + GLX overlays 01:08:47 both modes support multiple GL displays 01:08:47 baddog` [n=liam@110.32.147.73] has joined #lisp 01:09:52 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:10:06 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:10:13 p_l: um, straight GL bypasses the windowing, so how can it support multiple of something that doesn't exist? 01:10:29 newb question: if ASDF comes with SBCL, do I still need to load it manually if I'm using SLIME+Emacs? 01:10:36 -!- baddog` is now known as baddog 01:10:37 Guthur: it wasn't supported by radeon 9700s, for sure 01:10:50 cools: no 01:10:51 rahul: multiple graphic contexts that draw to multiple "areas" on screen 01:11:09 rahul: overlays? 01:11:12 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B343A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:11:13 cools: since slime will be launching your sbcl, which already has asdf in it 01:11:25 p_l: you can do that in straight OpenGL? 01:11:26 or more than one context 01:11:33 Guthur: overlays 01:11:50 overlays are not what i required though 01:11:52 Guthur: more than one context, too probably 01:12:05 Guthur: you aren't going to be displaying all the windows at once? 01:12:20 Guthur: are you doing MDI or tabs? 01:12:35 the OS might use it to render windows, i don't know how it implements that 01:12:37 rahul: more than one context would work on 9700... overlays wouldn't, unless you forced the card to act as FireGL one 01:12:40 rahul: when i run SBCL by itself in a terminal, everything works fine, but when I try to load the same package in Emacs, then it gives me a component not found error 01:12:55 p_l: right, that's what I suspected 01:13:07 cools: component as in asdf component? 01:13:21 yes 01:13:25 rahul: I had a GeForce 2MX acting as cheap Quadro for some time :P 01:13:28 cools: so asdf is working? 01:13:34 p_l: nice :) 01:13:40 said overlays were also available on windows under GL 01:13:49 MDI, but i'm assuming that internal windows might act like normal windows in terms of contexts, i.e. completely separate 01:14:01 Guthur: exactly, which means multiple overlays! 01:14:08 *rahul* beats Guthur with the cluestick 01:14:48 so does the window system us opengl 01:14:52 rahul: for example, i'm trying to load ch-image, "(asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op "ch-image")" works if SBCL is running in a terminal, but in emacs it gives me an error about not being able to find the "ch-image" component 01:14:53 us/use 01:14:56 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 01:14:58 Guthur: which "the"? 01:15:09 rahul: it doesn't mean separate overlays :P 01:15:32 cools: did you symlink the ch-image.asd into some directory that's in asdf:*central-repository*? 01:15:43 p_l: why not? 01:15:47 just that you have to keep GL objects sufficiently separate, as older GL interfaces tend not to like multithreading 01:15:52 rahul: I just solved it, i forgot to have a trailing slash at the end of the path 01:16:04 gah! :P 01:16:07 p_l: unless the multiple windows are rendered as a single GL overlay 01:16:20 rahul: overlays are not needed as long as all you want is to output GL stuff onto area on screen 01:16:24 cools: yeah, some implementations are strict about directory vs file in paths 01:16:37 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.202.7] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:16:46 rahul: going to have to be careful about that from now on 01:16:57 p_l: what are they needed for, then? and how would you get it to work otherwise? 01:17:03 rahul: it's done transparently to the programmer... now, if you wanted to have control over that and play around with it, like placing annotations on top of GL image, then you need overlays 01:17:04 p_l: oh, render and blit? 01:17:44 rahul: overlays are needed if you want to separately draw *on top* of GL output, without affecting said output 01:17:50 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:18:03 p_l: hmm I've never seen it used for that 01:18:19 Overlays planes allow layered rendering. They support a transparent color to let rendering in underlying planes show through. Any combination of overlay and underlay planes are possible, but a typical implementation consists of a single overlay plane along with the main framebuffer plane. It's common for overlay planes to be available only in color index mode, though RGB overlays are available on some devices. The ... 01:18:25 ... transparent color is normally (0,0,0) for RGB overlays and index 0 for color index overlays. Rendering to the overlay plane is non-destructive to the main plane and vice versa. 01:18:38 I've only ever seen overlays used for just placing a GL rendered scene inside a window in real time 01:18:43 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:18:49 the main plane is what you know as what you render into 01:19:20 that was taken from OpenGL faq 01:19:47 http://www.opengl.org/resources/faq/technical/contexts.htm 01:19:51 that one i assume 01:19:59 yup 01:20:08 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:20:37 i was thinking the windowing system takes care of all that in regard to windows 01:20:56 i can have windows with separate contexts and drag them over each other no problem 01:21:11 Guthur: iirc re-rendering of windows might be either manual or automatic, I'll have to check 01:21:13 i just wanted them contained within another window 01:21:30 plage [n=user@123.19.32.127] has joined #lisp 01:21:35 Good morning! 01:21:59 oh ya you would have to running the swap loop, or you would get that ghosting or what ever it might be called 01:22:14 basically, you have a plane (basically, the output framebuffer), onto which both GL and X11 draw, and of course they might draw over each other... so you have some window repair protocol that renders them in proper order to get layered look 01:22:21 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:22:30 plage: ... it's 0222... I see we have similar notions of morning 01:23:01 p_l: I suspect one of you just woke up and the other didn't :P 01:23:05 :P 01:23:42 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:23:43 p_l: I'm in a different time zone from my usual one. 01:24:41 ah cool 01:24:54 send some pho to NYC 01:24:55 p_l you know i think it was only on windows that ghosting happened 01:25:06 it's cold here :P 01:26:33 Guthur: X11 normally avoids ghosting, but GL kind of overrides it, you know, with all that "direct access" thing that differentiated it so much from PHIGS/PHIGS+ and GKS... :P 01:28:33 GL (kinda) maps to hw 01:28:34 rahul: Will do :) 01:28:53 well if i did want to create an app with multiple windows i could just take the GIMP cop out approach and have totally separate windows, 01:29:10 um, that's not a cop out 01:29:18 that's the only sensible approach 01:29:21 its crap all the same 01:29:44 -!- someguyasfsdf [n=user@h69-130-132-182.cncrtn.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has left #lisp 01:29:45 it gets very messy, 01:30:14 Guthur: MDI also uses separate windows... it's just that some of them can't get out of the main one ;-) 01:30:22 heh 01:30:37 conceptually, yes, it's just a bunch of windows that are clipped to a larger one 01:30:38 i know, its that containment i am after 01:31:02 although the inner windows are rendered sometimes using completely different code than the outer one 01:31:11 and so they look like a view into someone else's computer 01:41:00 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.124.207.62] has joined #lisp 01:45:29 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-49-51.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 01:46:25 lacedaemon [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-133-9.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:47:04 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 01:47:42 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-044-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:53:15 <_deepfire> Does anybody know, in the context of constructing a pipe between two child processes, why do you need to close the write side in the parent before starting the reading child? 01:53:50 <_deepfire> Why can't you start both of them, then close both sides of the pipe? 01:54:16 _deepfire: huh? since when? 01:54:19 <_deepfire> Why doesn't read() in the child get an EOF when I close the last write side? 01:54:22 _deepfire: what OS? 01:54:27 <_deepfire> rahul, linux 01:54:28 _deepfire: what mechanism? 01:54:32 _deepfire: avoiding possible race condition? 01:54:54 <_deepfire> rahul, sb-ext:run-program, pipe() 01:55:08 -!- rares [n=rares@174-26-7-168.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 01:55:16 *_deepfire* constructs a generic shell pipeline mechanism for CL 01:55:27 or might be something for avoiding fd starvation 01:56:21 _deepfire: that doesn't seem like a real restriction 01:56:31 pipes and fifos are supposed to work the same 01:56:37 <_deepfire> rahul, sure, I'm just curious, having spent some time on it.. 01:56:47 and I've streamed real time through a fifo 01:57:09 _deepfire: it looks more like "the usual way of doing it" 01:57:41 <_deepfire> rahul, It's not about latency requirements, it's about some ordering constraints. 01:57:45 p_l: except that that doesn't seem to be the case for pipes in shells 01:57:53 _deepfire: right 01:58:09 that's what I mean by real time, not real-time, but in real time 01:58:59 _deepfire: in fact, the documnentation contradicts what you seem to be saying 01:59:28 the docs say you HAVE to keep reading or else the write will block 02:00:12 although "close the last write side" doesn't make sense to me 02:00:40 close is missing an object 02:04:06 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:04:55 -!- plage [n=user@123.19.32.127] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:05:05 -!- xan [n=xan@83.36.170.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:05:52 <_deepfire> rahul, as I said above, the context is a parent managing childs 02:06:09 _deepfire: I don't see how that answers my question 02:06:30 there are many writers? 02:06:32 plage [n=user@123.19.32.127] has joined #lisp 02:06:32 <_deepfire> rahul, then I don't see how "you HAVE to keep reading or else the write will block" is applicable 02:06:53 _deepfire: the reader needs to read to unblock the writer 02:07:03 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-9-69.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:07:04 <_deepfire> rahul, the file descriptors are many-to-many, not one-to-one 02:07:12 which directly contradicts the statement that the reader needs to read only after the writer is finished 02:07:24 _deepfire: that's insane. 02:07:29 <_deepfire> rahul, what is? 02:07:34 <_deepfire> wtf? 02:07:38 having multiple readers for a single stream 02:08:09 <_deepfire> I'm not saying that I have this requirement. What I'm saying is that this is the nature of FDs. 02:08:18 multiple writers is somewhat insane, but can be worked out theoretically 02:08:53 _deepfire: if you're not doing it, then why is it relevant? 02:09:25 <_deepfire> rahul, because I don't see how your "you HAVE to keep reading or else the write will block" applies in this model 02:09:54 <_deepfire> And I'm doing it, the second when I call fork(), whether I want it or not. 02:10:31 _deepfire: you said that's the problem 02:10:34 <_deepfire> The moment I call fork() the count of pipe's file descriptor's inputs or outputs INCF's by 1. 02:10:39 please read what you told us 02:11:11 <_deepfire> Please, don't play "us" on me. 02:11:16 "why do you need to close the write side in the parent before starting the reading child?" 02:11:26 what? 02:11:38 _deepfire: you didn't tell it to me specifically. 02:11:43 you told it to the channel 02:11:53 <_deepfire> Ok, fair enough. 02:12:18 you need to read before you can close the write side, more often 02:12:36 so you might as well ask if linux has stopped beating its wife. 02:12:41 MikeGoldberg [n=mikey@adsl-99-141-1-62.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:57 -!- MikeGoldberg [n=mikey@adsl-99-141-1-62.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:13:32 <_deepfire> Please, could you elaborate further? 02:13:40 MikeGoldberg [n=mikey@adsl-99-141-1-62.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:42 elaborate about what? 02:13:51 21:06 < rahul> _deepfire: the reader needs to read to unblock the writer 02:14:50 -!- MikeGoldberg [n=mikey@adsl-99-141-1-62.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:15:45 and you're saying the reader starts reading right away, anyway, so what behavior are you seeing? 02:16:41 MikeGoldberg [n=mikey@adsl-99-141-1-62.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:11 <_deepfire> In short, start-writer, close-write-side, start-reader, close-read-side does not block. 02:17:21 -!- derrida [n=derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 02:17:31 <_deepfire> Whereas start-writer, start-reader, close-write-side, close-read-side blocks. 02:17:59 _deepfire: that directly contradicts how pipes work at the kernel level 02:17:59 <_deepfire> Where "blocks" means read(0) blocks in the reader child. 02:18:06 <_deepfire> I'm sorry. 02:18:11 oh ok 02:18:30 <_deepfire> This is what I see in real life. 02:18:39 so you're saying that if there's nothing yet written, the reader waits for something to be written? 02:18:55 <_deepfire> My hypothesis is as follows: 02:19:51 <_deepfire> When read is called on a read side of a pipe with data, but with closed read side -- it returns the data and returns. 02:20:00 <_deepfire> er 02:20:05 <_deepfire> When read is called on a read side of a pipe with data, but with closed write side -- it returns the data and returns. 02:21:00 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-46-85.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:21:06 <_deepfire> When read is called on a read side of a pipe with no data, but with opened write side -- it blocks, and doesn't return even when the write side is closed. 02:21:34 _deepfire: do you mean you're trying to read zero bytes? 02:21:52 <_deepfire> I have NFI, honestly, I'm piping /bin/echo and /bin/grep 02:23:12 <_deepfire> Actually, I wonder if it varies with actual executables. 02:24:07 I can't figure out the problem here 02:24:27 either way, the reader will get the data eventually, no? 02:24:27 <_deepfire> It's running counter my intuition as well, which is why I raised it. 02:24:55 <_deepfire> rahul, I cat /proc//fdstat/0 and it says position is 0. 02:25:00 is the problem that EAGAIN is not being returned correctly? 02:25:23 it's returning 0 instead of EAGAIN or what? 02:25:23 <_deepfire> So I assume that the data is somehow lost. 02:25:39 0 when what? 02:25:45 <_deepfire> No, read() blocks forever, according to strace. 02:26:11 <_deepfire> Does that answer your question? 02:26:54 so you get a hang when you try to read() before anything has been written? 02:27:41 <_deepfire> Well, judge for yourself -- I create a pipe and pass its write side to the writer child, then the reading side to the reader child. 02:27:42 is that your actual problem? 02:27:57 I don't want to judge anything. I want to know what your problem is that needs solving. 02:30:18 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-52-116.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 02:30:58 <_deepfire> It's simple enough -- 1. pipes don't lose data, 2. the writer is started before the reader (but may be first scheduled after the writer, theoretically), 3. the reader starts and blocks on read() until something appears on the pipe, 4. the writer eventually _must_ be scheduled, and by virtue of being trivial enough 02:31:10 <_deepfire> it eventually writes data to the pipe 02:32:08 <_deepfire> 5. the writer never sees anything, under specific circumstances described above 02:32:22 <_deepfire> according to /proc/pid/fdstat, anyway 02:32:31 you mean 5. the reader ..." 02:32:34 ? 02:32:35 <_deepfire> yes 02:32:38 ok 02:32:39 <_deepfire> sorry :-) 02:33:10 so it looks like there's a bad race condition 02:33:34 <_deepfire> In fact, the point everything hinges on is the actual behavior of the reader, which I'm only theorising about. 02:33:53 change the reader to be cat 02:34:01 *_deepfire* tries 02:34:01 um 02:34:05 wait 02:34:14 where is the output of the reader going? 02:34:35 <_deepfire> *standard-output* 02:34:47 you explicitly specified that? 02:34:51 <_deepfire> Ok, cat cleared it, the output goes through. 02:34:53 <_deepfire> Yes. 02:35:14 so the problem seems specific to something that grep is doing 02:35:17 <_deepfire> The data isn't lost, it's just that the close() event isn't propagated as EOF. 02:35:26 <_deepfire> No, not really, cat still blocks. 02:35:41 the data gets through or not? 02:35:44 <_deepfire> Yes. 02:35:52 ok, just that EOF never comes through 02:35:54 <_deepfire> The data gets through. 02:35:55 <_deepfire> Yes. 02:36:18 and do you see a call to close() in the strace of echo? 02:36:41 <_deepfire> Well, echo is no longer alive, so the fd must be scavenged by the colonel. 02:36:55 <_deepfire> "irregardless" 02:37:39 not really 02:37:49 the fd doesn't necessarily belong to echo 02:38:05 <_deepfire> Well, I closed it on the parent side. 02:38:06 echo shouldn't be closing your terminal, for example 02:39:10 hmm, actually, I'd have to think about what the semantics are for the fds that each processa ctually gets to be sure about that last statement of mine 02:40:09 <_deepfire> Ok, I'll go back to employing my new knowledge for the new pipeline construct :-) 02:40:24 <_deepfire> Or my new confusion.. 02:40:29 hmm yeah, echo invoked with basic execve() will share your parent process's stdout fd 02:40:37 _deepfire: position is not supported on pipes, btw, so you get bogus data 02:41:29 <_deepfire> p_l, it very well might be unsupported in the /user/ space, but I would think that the kernel has some mechanism to expose more complete information. 02:41:59 _deepfire: not really - you might get two pointers to a circular buffer :D 02:42:21 <_deepfire> p_l, I see where you're going of course :-) Thanks for pointing it out! 02:42:38 <_deepfire> rahul, thank you for a useful discussion, btw! 02:42:59 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:43:06 the pipe canonically iirc is actually implemented with a circular buffer, with blocking when the reader and writer meet 02:43:12 <_deepfire> p_l, that is, if the data was readily available it'd be exposed.. 02:43:48 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229071096.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 02:44:00 <_deepfire> p_l, otoh, keeping a counter sounds fairly trivial. 02:44:10 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:25 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 02:45:14 _deepfire: iirc there might be counter for data transferred, but I guess it doesn't really matter from OS side 02:48:05 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.192.103] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 02:50:51 -!- MikeGoldberg [n=mikey@adsl-99-141-1-62.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 02:52:49 <_deepfire> The problem I see is that the write side fd might get duplicated at different points in time, so the counter might have different meanings for different fds. 02:53:38 <_deepfire> Each fd would have to keep an offset relative to the 0 of the counter of the pipe it childs from. 02:53:50 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:54:16 <_deepfire> Maybe it wasn't deemed worth the complication, in the end. 02:54:27 and it's just excess baggage 02:54:42 <_deepfire> Well, any statistics are, to a certain extent. 02:54:45 like checking that the result of + is a number 02:54:56 <_deepfire> Um, not quite. 02:54:57 _deepfire: write() atomically writes to the buffer, incrementing the pointer... if there are two processes writing to the same fd, you get two sources of atomic writes to it 02:55:13 <_deepfire> p_l, oh, an even better reason, indeed! 02:55:43 read() does the same for reading (so, two processes read()ing from single fd screw each other from data, as it never gets duplicated) 02:57:00 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@customer-74.203.304.pdchawaii.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:58:47 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:58:49 -!- kooll [n=samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:00:21 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1176024051.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:01:13 <_deepfire> Ok, executor now has shell-like pipelines. 03:01:40 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit ["leaving"] 03:02:32 -!- quodlibetor [n=user@ool-45723726.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:02:44 quodlibetor [n=user@ool-45723726.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:54 <_deepfire> I guess this is sufficient grounds for a CL shell. 03:07:01 dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f72698c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:59 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 03:12:47 koollman [n=samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:23 Ferrari_308_GTS 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[n=cmell@54.37.50.60.kmr04-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 04:50:33 Osaka [n=Alien@fl-71-3-64-216.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:04 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.214.188] has joined #lisp 05:07:11 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 05:10:04 hrm, given a choice, pass a list of short functions to a function for customization of cond, or make a macro and pass in the custom cond portio 05:10:07 n 05:11:03 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@54.37.50.60.kmr04-home.tm.net.my] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:11:18 c|mell [n=cmell@54.37.50.60.kmr04-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 05:11:33 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.124.207.62] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:13:41 <_deepfire> Demosthenes, could you reformulate it? 05:14:54 i have a function with a complex cond statement, and now i need to customize it. i figured i'd move some of the one-offs into an argument... 05:15:21 i couldn't decide whether to make a pseudo-cond list to pass and then map over, or jsut make the main cond a macro and pass in my custom pieces. 05:15:37 but you know, i may just pass in a "preprocessor" and call it done. 05:18:21 -!- hbock [n=hbock@pool-96-253-35-189.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 05:19:03 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:32 yeah, i'll just pass a function to call to make a transform as needed 05:23:06 fbl_ [n=fbl@c-71-231-182-52.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:11 -!- fbl_ [n=fbl@c-71-231-182-52.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 05:28:29 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:31:29 Demosthenes: sounds like you want DEFGENERIC to me. 05:32:15 fun with trees. 05:32:21 if the cond is not expressible as EQL specializers, then you might have a use case for filtered-dispatch, which could be fun. 05:33:15 i'm basically applying the cond to each leaf and trying to specify the edge cases outside of the main function. 05:37:09 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 05:42:54 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 05:47:16 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 05:47:39 <_deepfire> Demosthenes, if you could make the edge cases distinguishable through the type system, you could follow drewc's advice and dispatch using defgeneric. 05:49:25 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:49:39 <_deepfire> Demosthenes, if not, filtered dispatch allows you to base your dispatch on the result of arbitrary queries about the objects dispatched upon. 05:50:35 ala dispatch table? have a link to the idea? 05:51:10 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:02 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1176024051.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 05:55:54 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:58:52 <_deepfire> Demosthenes, http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/filtered.html 06:03:46 kejsaren 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[n=Alien@fl-71-3-64-216.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has quit ["leaving"] 07:51:33 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 07:53:18 devD_ [n=devendra@unaffiliated/dev29aug] has joined #lisp 07:53:35 can I do lisp programming in vim editor ? 07:53:55 sure 07:54:28 jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-28-135-209.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:54:40 ace4016, how to do that please tell me. 07:54:57 open vim and start typing? 07:55:38 ya but how to compile 07:55:48 err 07:56:06 it's not really a language you compile 07:56:14 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-27-170-163.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:56:39 I am a beginner student of lisp 07:57:00 minion, tell decD about PCL 07:57:01 decD: please see PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 07:57:38 ok 07:58:29 is emacs is best for lisp ? 07:59:15 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@customer-74.203.304.pdchawaii.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:00:16 not sure if it's the best, but it's a common...environment for lisp 08:00:28 ok 08:00:55 -!- koollman [n=samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:02:33 koollman [n=samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:13 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit ["Asta-la byebye"] 08:09:16 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 08:09:18 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6C2B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:31 JohnnyL [i=excellen@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:43 -!- JohnnyL [i=excellen@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 08:19:06 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:28:22 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6C2B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:31:15 YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:31:51 -!- ntd [n=user@adsl-190-194-20.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:34:24 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 08:36:28 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.111.234] has joined #lisp 08:36:34 CBro2007 [n=manukaul@c-7996e253.026-209-73746f13.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:36:36 'morning 08:36:53 hi guys I want to start learning Common Lisp... got macosx 08:37:01 where do I get started 08:37:11 I haven't used Emacs much either 08:37:39 -!- shrughes [n=shrughes@c-65-96-172-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091215231400]"] 08:37:53 udzinari` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 08:37:58 any suggestions? 08:38:42 minion: pcl for CBro2007 08:38:43 CBro2007: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 08:38:54 yeah got that book 08:39:00 from the library 08:39:08 SBCL? 08:39:10 CBro2007: it's a pretty solid read to get started 08:39:12 is that what I need? 08:39:36 CBro2007: there are many options here. SBCL is great, free and fast -- go with it 08:39:55 the thing is that if I wanted to do more serious dev work in Common lisp would I need to get used to how Emacs works? 08:40:11 whats "Lisp in a Box? 08:41:18 prxq [n=mommer@g228075181.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:41:19 not necessarily, but you want to use a good editor with paren matching and automatic indentation; emacs has all that and it's very suitable for writing all sorts of languages, CL included 08:42:09 ok so as long as there is a "bracket matching" in the editor then i should be good to go? 08:42:21 coz I know in Emacs you can compile sections of your code 08:42:24 and run them too etc 08:42:25 yeah? 08:42:38 CBro2007: yes, using slime 08:42:49 CBro2007: that's some awesome functionality pretty hard to match with any other editor 08:43:07 *mishoo* thinks ..oO( is there any other general purpose editor to provide that, in fact? ) 08:43:09 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-28-135-209.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:43:37 jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-30-147-175.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:44:31 emacs isn't an editor, it's a platform :P 08:45:12 -!- Fare [n=Fare@static-68-161-232-114.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:45:39 hmm will have to learn it then 08:45:45 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-179-51-253.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:45:51 got like 2 weeks spare time before my next term 08:45:59 so thought I can pick up some Common Lisp 08:46:19 would be cool for AI programming sort of stuff and recursion 08:46:25 is there something that cannot be done in LISP? 08:48:15 CBro2007: is there something that cannot be done in assembly language? :-p 08:48:58 slyrus [n=slyrus@customer-74.203.304.pdchawaii.com] has joined #lisp 08:49:36 -!- quodlibetor [n=user@ool-45723726.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:51:13 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Success] 08:51:24 yeah heaps 08:53:05 CBro2007: of course you can do heaps 08:53:19 sorry for being ironic.. I just meant to say that your question is poor 08:53:35 in theory, anything you can do in a turing-complete language, you can do in another turing-complete language too. 08:53:46 the theory doesn't specify just how much time is needed, though ;-) 08:53:56 CBro2007: you might find this essay inspiring: http://norvig.com/21-days.html 08:54:59 Disinspiring, rather 08:55:34 yeah 08:56:15 well, it's incredibly true, though 08:57:14 Unfortunately most people find that notion truly incredible 09:01:22 I fell asleep half way through 09:01:24 :) 09:01:31 can you give me the gist 09:02:18 what is the point he is trying to make really? 09:02:34 that it should take 10 years for someone to call themselves a real programmer? 09:02:51 CBro2007: yeah 09:02:58 I find it incredible that people can be unable to read things 09:03:09 CBro2007: you mentioned you have 2 weeks time to learn CL, so that's why I mentioned that essay ;) 09:03:19 hehehe 09:03:30 two weeks of reading a book and doing its excercises 09:03:35 CBro2007: you can pick up some Lisp in 2 weeks, and you can ven become a great lisp programmer in a short time, but this assuming you have some solid previous experience with other languages 09:03:42 still gives you a pretty good understanding of how it all works 09:03:59 ofcourse from then on you got to keep using it and looking at design patterns etc to get better 09:04:19 yeah i have lots of other languages 09:04:23 this aint my first one 09:04:25 :) 09:04:37 I did some scheme ages ago 09:05:02 so I am "kind of familiar" with the whole million braces thing 09:05:21 a good editor with bracket matching would certainly make life much easier 09:05:28 I tried scheme about 12 years back 09:05:46 on just some normal unix editor... wasn't fun at all 09:14:20 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-2-186.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:15:41 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-30-147-175.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:16:23 -!- jmbr___ [n=jmbr@92.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:17:35 jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-30-140-211.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:18:54 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:25:48 -!- CBro2007 [n=manukaul@c-7996e253.026-209-73746f13.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 09:26:42 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:28:09 CBro2007 [n=manukaul@c-7996e253.026-209-73746f13.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:28:33 bipt [i=bpt@cpe-173-095-174-230.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:31:19 -!- Kludgy [n=therealk@S01060018f85956c8.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [] 09:32:17 -!- CBro2007 [n=manukaul@c-7996e253.026-209-73746f13.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 09:40:46 spoofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 09:41:13 nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 09:42:12 -!- nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 09:42:35 -!- udzinari` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:43:41 udzinari` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 09:43:56 -!- devD_ [n=devendra@unaffiliated/dev29aug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:43:57 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 09:44:48 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.214.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:45:21 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:50 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-179-51-253.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:51:18 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-82-222.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 09:51:28 alex_ [n=alex@95.72.77.6] has joined #lisp 09:52:42 -!- Ferrari_308_GTS is now known as fe[nl]ix 09:55:54 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.111.234] has quit ["be back later"] 09:57:19 xan [n=xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 09:57:56 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:58:26 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d069b51.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:58:26 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.214.188] has joined #lisp 09:58:27 hello 09:58:52 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:59:23 frontiers [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:32 merl15 [n=merl@80-121-10-236.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 10:06:52 devD [n=devendra@unaffiliated/dev29aug] has joined #lisp 10:07:14 how to start lisp in emacs ? 10:07:36 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:08:37 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:09 Axius [n=ade@92.85.16.196] has joined #lisp 10:12:49 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:13:07 devD: http://unya.wordpress.com/2009/06/07/linux-common-lisp-quickstart/ 10:14:23 p_l, thanks 10:22:41 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:24:03 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.85.16.196] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:27:43 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:28:56 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-30-140-211.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:29:13 jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-30-193-201.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:32:35 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 10:34:12 CBro2007 [n=manukaul@c-7996e253.026-209-73746f13.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:36:12 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:38:51 oudeis [n=oudeis@95.35.54.59] has joined #lisp 10:39:25 milanj [n=milan@77.46.202.7] has joined #lisp 10:39:39 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:40:40 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 10:40:42 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@customer-74.203.304.pdchawaii.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:41:03 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 10:41:13 akamaus [n=maus@94.231.112.177] has joined #lisp 10:41:16 lispm [n=joswig@e177122057.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:44:49 devD_ [n=devendra@unaffiliated/dev29aug] has joined #lisp 10:45:37 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:42 kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:09 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.101.43] has joined #lisp 10:46:46 -!- CBro2007 [n=manukaul@c-7996e253.026-209-73746f13.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 10:48:03 nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 10:49:09 jmbr [n=jmbr@244.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 10:49:11 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 10:52:29 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-033-228.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:54 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:00:20 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:00:34 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:01:49 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:01:52 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:01:53 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-218.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:02:56 -!- devD [n=devendra@unaffiliated/dev29aug] has quit [Success] 11:03:15 boingo 11:03:28 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Exeunt IRC"] 11:03:38 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 11:05:48 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-30-193-201.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:07:41 -!- alex_ [n=alex@95.72.77.6] has quit ["    (xchat 2.4.5  )"] 11:09:20 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:09:48 jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-26-94-43.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:10:48 Yo, schme! 11:14:23 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:22:12 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 11:22:29 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:25:49 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:26:47 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:29:20 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:32:59 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F95F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:07 hello elderK 11:36:30 How're you today, man? 11:36:49 hey, schme. 11:36:50 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-26-94-43.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:37:27 Hello tic 11:37:37 tic: How do I undo close tab in this here opera, eh? :) 11:37:46 elderK: I'm playing backgammon so things are very well. 11:37:48 ctrl-shift-t is what I've bound it to. 11:37:54 jahmarley [n=jahmarle@88.238.219.210] has joined #lisp 11:37:56 aha 11:38:23 :D 11:38:26 schme, you can configure it in tools -> prefs -> etc -> keys, search for tab to see everything related to tabs (because I can't remember the name of the command for undo tab) 11:38:39 schme, did you see La Travesti Executif on Friday? 11:38:48 What's that? 11:38:52 Eddie Izzard. 11:38:57 Nope. 11:39:02 Aw. 11:39:18 Not a big fan. Was it any good? 11:39:54 No idea, I'm seeing him tonight here in Göteborg. (I wuv him) 11:39:59 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-28-140-142.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:40:01 woopa 11:40:46 I thought you meant the whole COP15 there. Seems to have been a travesti executif. 11:41:23 On the upside one got to see danish police in action \o/ 11:42:00 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@95.35.54.59] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:42:33 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:42:43 schme, yeah. big mess, that. No, I was referring to the Brittish stand-up comedian. 11:43:01 *schme* gives up on finding the tab thing. 11:43:09 I just want right click and be able to select undo :P 11:43:15 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:43:16 you can. 11:43:24 Ya I bet. I just can't find it (: 11:43:41 or rather, press the thingy marked with a circle-arrow. it's your tab trashcan. 11:44:03 OH 11:44:19 cools (: 11:44:36 You're on Linux, right? 11:44:41 tic: also I can't seem to browse pdfs in this. I click a pdf link, I get the front page. then it messes up. 11:44:45 yup 11:44:48 Weird. 11:45:11 indeed! 11:45:37 where should I put clbuild ? in /opt or /home ? 11:45:52 devD_: Wherever you like it. 11:46:12 Mine lives in ~/hacking/ext/clbuild 11:46:20 I seem to have mine in ~/src/clbuild 11:46:42 schme, but I think putting in /opt is good practice 11:46:46 <[df]> what does LISP=CL in clisp's *features* mean? 11:47:06 devD_: good practice for what? 11:47:16 devD_: Are other users going to access it? 11:47:20 If you think it's good practice, then do it. :-) 11:47:38 [df]: *features* generally don't mean a thing (: 11:47:41 schme, someone told me that external packages should be put on /opt 11:48:27 devD_: It's your system, you can put stuff wherever. But there is some standard that suggests doing that, yes. But that is mostly for packages you intend to have accessible for more users than just the one. 11:48:47 p_l: are you the author of that quickstart blog? 11:48:48 while getting the upgrade of distro to the new version external package cause problem due to unknown dependencies. 11:48:51 a bit like you have /usr/bin /opt/bin and ~/bin depending on things (: 11:48:56 why /opt over /usr/local ? 11:49:11 schme, yes 11:49:32 devD_: anyway you're making too much of it. put it in /etc/X11/ 11:49:38 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229071096.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:49:50 p_l: If so, let me say that I like it. There's a "clbuild install sbcl" step missing before the "compile-implementation" though, I think. 11:50:06 schme, lol ..ok I am going to put it inside /boot/grub 11:50:53 tic: 'tis because I even forgot about local :P 11:51:24 Isn't local where you'd put stuff you actually build, and not install as packages? 11:51:28 hm, yeah. 11:51:33 --prefix=/usr/local etc. 11:52:09 --prefix=${HOME} (: 11:52:42 yeah, --prefix=$HOME/local is what I do for most of the stuff I have installed on my system. 11:54:30 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 11:54:43 hm. need moar cables. 11:55:18 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:56:37 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:00:06 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.124.207.62] has joined #lisp 12:00:28 -!- devD_ [n=devendra@unaffiliated/dev29aug] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:01:09 -!- jahmarley [n=jahmarle@88.238.219.210] has left #lisp 12:01:32 lichtblau: yeah, that's my blog, rather neglected and with bad content overall :P 12:01:37 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:02:25 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:02:33 I was considering making a new webpage from scratch, including a blog, geared for professional use 12:07:34 lichtblau: I'd like to work on qthemlock in 2010. Iirc you said there's still pending stuff. Could you perhaps use the time through the years to make everything available? 12:09:04 tcr: okay, I'll try to. Nikodemus has already reported success with the TTY version, but you need patched osicat and iolib at the moment: http://lichteblau.com/tmp/git.tar.bz2 12:09:39 *luis* is happy to apply osicat patches, or add lichtblau to the project group 12:09:41 I'll try to push CommonQt changes, too. 12:09:46 The TTY backend is significantly more stable at the moment anyway. 12:10:07 luis: no need, I think. It turns out that iolib would have been the right project to patch, not osicat. 12:10:22 Ah, ok. 12:10:45 Not sure if it's the case, but I regret iolib duplicating a bunch of osicat stuff. 12:12:53 lichtblau: Some time ago when I looked, the commonqt website said you tried to closify but that resulted in bad compilation time? 12:13:00 luis: I can't speak for fe[nl]ix, but it seemed to me that it almost supersedes osicat. Looks to me that it would be hard to draw the line between the two libraries anyway, so it may be the right thing for iolib to supersede osicat entirely (if it hasn't done so already). 12:13:04 At the moment, you program agains the QT API directly? 12:14:01 (I don't mind superseding, when a) the superseding is total, and b) the superseded project says so on its website.) 12:14:03 tcr: well, that was back then. Today the situation is more that cl-smoke has all of that CLOSy stuff, and it would be silly for me to even attempt to match that, especially since I would have added it only to please other users, and not because I would have wanted to use it myself. 12:14:07 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:14:21 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-7-200.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:55 lichtblau: maybe, I wasn't convinced by fe[nl]ix's arguments last time we discussed it. 12:15:39 lichtblau: does iolib really have to bundle something like osicat-posix/sb-posix? 12:16:20 *tcr* finds sb-posix not very convenient to use, and would favor to deprecate it. :-) 12:16:36 luis: Don't know. I'm just a user in thi scase, so I'll use whatever offers the most complete grovel stuff. 12:16:37 tcr: that's another matter. :) 12:16:57 tcr: In addition, my personal "overly smug lisp user opinion" is that attempting to cast everything into lisp symbols and classes is similar to the lisp newbie mistake of overusing macros. 12:17:36 I can understand why someone would attempt to do that in his first, let's say, 10 years of lisp newbieness ;-). But ultimately, I say: embrace read macros and quick compilation times. Embrace the lispiness of NOT making it "lispy". 12:17:48 I don't have experience in that matter, but I can see the point in using a direct mapping because original documentation is directly applicable 12:18:09 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:19:00 tcr: did lichtblau just assert his 10+ lisp uberness over us? :) 12:19:12 alex_ [n=alex@95.72.77.6] has joined #lisp 12:19:24 anybody use limp? 12:19:49 luis: A bluff! 12:20:08 You saw him last week, does he have a long beard? 12:20:14 Nope. 12:20:22 Nuff said 12:20:23 Axius [n=ade@92.85.16.196] has joined #lisp 12:20:25 tic: do you use limp? 12:20:56 Nobody had long beards at the workshop I believe. 12:21:09 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:21:13 SandGorgon, when I hack Lisp, yeah. (being the author and all) 12:21:15 What I would quite like to see is an API on top of Qt where the design of that API is actually lispy -- not just the symbols. 12:21:17 er, stassats. 12:21:20 It's the new generation of Lispers! Now with razors! 12:21:47 alex_: tic uses limp 12:21:48 Of course, that means wrapping it, and losing most of what makes Qt so complete and nice. It's also a lot of work -- I don't have the time to write a McCAPI. 12:21:58 Oh. Didn't see that. 12:22:14 Is there some way to get emacs/slime to reckognize the buffer contents without saving the buffer to a file with C+x+C+w? 12:22:17 alex_, should grab the latest version off github. has a bugfix for starting sessions. 12:22:29 madsy: How do you mean? 12:22:36 alex_, http://github.com/mikaelj/limp 12:22:38 What is "recognize the buffer contents" 12:22:45 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-218.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:22:48 tic, i can't understand how to start it 12:22:50 But something like an HTK (hemlock toolkit) might be an option, which offers only the bare minimum of graphics needed for a text editor. 12:22:52 tcr: I don't get syntax highlighting nor proper identation unless I save the buffer first. 12:22:56 *stassats* guesses that tic fires up slime while nobody's watching 12:23:14 stassats, hehe. :) I tried it a few times, but I don't have the patience to configure it. 12:23:14 madsy: Emacs enables lisp-mode for file names that end in .lisp 12:23:29 alex_, run the install script, vim foo.lisp, F12. What happens? 12:23:30 madsy: Additionally you can put ;; -*- Mode:Lisp -*- at the start of the file 12:23:43 madsy: and of course, you can manually enable it via M-x lisp-mode 12:23:44 Ah, thanks a bunch :-) 12:24:14 tic, i do it, but F12 did't work 12:24:30 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:24:47 alex_, nothing happens at all when you press F12? what does filetype say? should be lisp. also, what if you type :nmap, do you have a bunch of mappings starting with Limp setup? 12:24:56 madsy: I probably have some local customization so lisp mode is automatically enabled for .asd files as well 12:26:45 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-197-242.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:27:55 lisp-mode on .asd works even with emacs -q 12:28:05 on emacs 23, that is 12:28:54 Heh, the "building a better lisp IDE" blurb in MCLIDE's site seems like a contrived description of Emacs. :) 12:28:58 emacs23 does something strange with fonts. they're larger than they're supposed to be according to the font setting, and resizing its frame (stumpwm) makes it fill up about half the size. weird. 12:29:10 Does MCLIDE really not have syntax highlighting? 12:30:14 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.9.43] has joined #lisp 12:32:26 *stassats* likes syntax highlighting only for comments and strings 12:32:49 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:33:34 plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.197.142] has joined #lisp 12:35:12 stassats: sometimes I think it would be nice for quotation too 12:35:51 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.101.43] has left #lisp 12:36:48 good idea. more colors for backquotes. 12:36:59 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:37:50 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-033-228.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 12:38:25 I'd like syntax highlighting for two things. 1. Stuff that isn't in the same syntax as its surroundings (comments and strings, as stassats says) 2. Highlighting that depends on context. 12:38:32 -!- udzinari [n=user@nat/ibm/x-mfwqcegavtrcrgnd] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:39:11 I haven't actually seen an implementation of (2) yet, but what I'd imagine is that e.g. when the point is on a variable name, then it would highlight the definition and uses of that variable. 12:39:50 But static highlighting of things that I'm not actually looking at right now feels extremely useless if not even harmful to comprehension. 12:40:47 hmm, the planet lisp clojure twitter gateway seems to have problems with weird names like luis and mega1 have 12:41:33 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:42:46 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 12:45:18 devD [n=devendra@unaffiliated/dev29aug] has joined #lisp 12:45:41 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.85.16.196] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:45:43 I need help for this step. this not runnung "./clbuild compile-implementation sbcl 12:45:44 " 12:46:17 I am installing through this http://goo.gl/wXrQ tut. 12:46:23 devD: as mentioned before, there's a step missing in the blog. You need to "clbuild install sbcl" first. 12:46:36 I have installed sbcl through apt-get 12:46:49 lichtblau, ok 12:47:30 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-218.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:47:33 tell me one thing what is installed in this command ? "./clbuild install cl-ppcre" 12:47:51 regular expression library 12:48:01 do I need them ? 12:48:11 i have seen this in clbuild page 12:48:24 that's just an example, i guess 12:48:30 ok 12:49:20 http://goo.gl/n88j 12:52:10 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:53:34 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:53:52 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:00:13 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.80.97] has joined #lisp 13:02:57 billitch [n=billitch@fac34-6-82-240-131-189.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:15 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-28-140-142.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:07:48 Xach: always nice to see unicode handling failing in new ways. 13:09:29 lichtblau: what is commonqt's status? I recall someone saying it was superseded, but I doubt it... 13:11:11 Maybe lichtblau applied lots and lots of tranformations to the code with sed? 13:11:14 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1176024051.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:15:15 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:57 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:23 kejsaren3 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:23 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-82-222.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:22:12 blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:24:14 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp034.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:24:28 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:25:40 luis: i thought h4ns did it 13:26:42 jasber_ [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 13:26:42 -!- jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:30:21 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:30:21 -!- kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:30:38 -!- xan [n=xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Success] 13:31:06 xan [n=xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 13:31:27 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:31:49 "./clbuild/target 13:31:50 " it says "bash: ./clbuild/target: Not a directory" 13:32:40 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-092-075-032-065.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:09 I was going to say something, but now I can't remember 13:34:15 *Krystof* is getting old 13:34:18 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:34:55 devD: are you just playing with cl-build or do you want to try out Common Lisp or what is the intent? 13:35:07 devD: that line in the blog post is definitely confusing. 13:35:24 devD: try clbuild install sbcl; clbuild compile-implementation sbcl 13:35:33 (with apriopriate path to clbuild) 13:35:41 devD: it's just telling you about a directory that stuff got installed to. I doesn't ask you to execute it. 13:36:03 ah. 13:36:18 *p_l* uses ZSH so he would navigate with that command :D 13:36:34 hypno, I am going through http://goo.gl/wXrQ . p_l I have already run these steps. 13:36:46 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 13:37:27 lichtblau, ok, so its your blog ? 13:37:33 devD: FWIW, I find the goo.gl shortlinks rather confusing. I recommend using the full URL or not using it at all. 13:37:55 devD: mine ^^; 13:37:56 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:37:58 devD: no, p_l has that blog 13:38:06 ok 13:38:06 haven't updated in long time... 13:38:19 gonna write some new stuff for those packages I'm preparing for beach 13:38:42 lichtblau, ok I'll use url. I was just trying google's new product to reduce spam here. 13:39:14 devD: but you know there are other options, right? you could just download a sbcl-binary, slime and emacs and rock n' roll. 13:39:29 p_l, its nice post but need some update. 13:40:46 hypno: for that matter, he could also skip the recompilation step and instantly start slime+emacs using clbuild and the distro-provided SBCL. But I figured that he'll want to try compiling things himself at some point anyway, so why not let him make that experience right now. 13:42:03 one of the things I didn't get to do at sbcl10 was to talk to lichtblau and pkhuong about which if any of common-cold and sb-heapdump and N other things we should be including 13:43:27 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.9.43] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:43:40 lichtblau, any hemlock screenshots to share? 13:43:46 lichtblau: ah, alrighty. the intent wasn't clear and i thought this was a struggling newbie in despair... 13:44:48 I have completed all the steps but when I do M-x slime . it says "no match" 13:44:50 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 13:45:07 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:45:16 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:20 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:24 -!- pragma_ is now known as grapenuts 13:46:00 -!- jasber_ [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:46:30 -!- grapenuts is now known as pragma_ 13:46:50 lispm: http://www.lichteblau.com/tmp/exp-syntax.png http://www.lichteblau.com/tmp/random-hemlock-stuff.ogv 13:47:18 -!- pragma_ is now known as OBVIOUSLYNOT 13:47:19 lichtblau: I /think/ that backquote nesting highlighting thing is due to Gilbert; I'm not sure 13:47:24 -!- OBVIOUSLYNOT is now known as pragma_ 13:47:37 p_l, its working now thanks, 13:47:40 I also vaguely remember gilbert demoing his hemlock in antialiased computer modern 13:47:40 Krystof: it certainly is. 13:47:48 lichtblau, nice, is that the terminal version? 13:47:50 which looked utterly beautiful (to my eye) 13:48:33 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:48:43 I've left highlighting in hemlock disabled by default, because while the syntax stuff is robust, it sometimes still triggers bugs in the tty redisplay code. 13:49:06 But it's there, and will serve as an example for anyone interested in improving it. 13:49:09 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:49:31 or stealing it for climacs 13:49:55 (I do not plan to steal it) 13:50:14 yeah, well. Technical questions aside, I don't want to introduce LGPL code into Hemlock. 13:51:12 In any case, the parsing code needs to be pluggable to some extent. So if syntax stuff from climacs can be plugged into hemlock's state machine, then that's all the better. 13:51:59 oh, "for climacs" is what you wrote. I was thinking "from climacs", because what climacs has is way better at this point. 13:52:57 lispm: yes, that the tty backend in the screenshot. It's currently more stable than the Qt backend. I'm using GNU screen a lot personally, so I'm terminal fan anyway. 13:53:04 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:26 I like that 13:53:51 I'm using screen, too - with GNU Emacs 13:54:09 I'd be willing to try Hemlock for that 13:54:11 the video is a bit boring, because it predates all interesting stuff like the new allegro-like REPL and commands like M-. 13:54:21 when I run slime from terminal through "./clbuild slime" it starts emacs with slime but when I try to start through "M-x slime " it doesn't work. 13:54:32 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181150041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:55:03 tic, can i install limp without install.sh, because it'd did't work? 13:55:10 -!- elderK [n=zk@125-238-255-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 13:55:32 c|mell [n=cmell@115.67.65.93] has joined #lisp 13:57:05 alex_, you can install limp without using install.sh if you perform the exact same steps in install.sh. I'm not sure I understand your question. 13:58:58 davazp [n=user@12.Red-83-55-178.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:04 tic, i get source from git repository, as you tell me. install.sh include next code 13:59:09 VERSION=0.3.5-pre 13:59:09 BASE=/usr/local/limp 13:59:09 cp -fr $VERSION $BASE 13:59:09 echo "* symlink $BASE/$VERSION -> $BASE/latest" 13:59:09 ln -sf $VERSION $BASE/latest 13:59:15 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181150041.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:59:37 alex_, alright, I might have forgotten to update the version info.. ugh. 13:59:51 but git repository does't include 0.3.5-pre directory 14:00:05 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:00:05 -!- kejsaren3 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:00:43 alex_, ah, yeah! Sorry, now I see it. 14:01:27 alex_, okay, in the mean time, run the package script and then the install script. that /should/ work. 14:01:39 I cant see .emacs in ~/ where I have to put the code. there is .emacs.d directory. 14:03:39 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 14:03:42 do I need to create one 14:10:52 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.214.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:12:35 tic,And you develop limp in the futere or it is better to use emacs? 14:12:43 future* 14:17:07 "better" is hard to say. i think you should consider Emacs the baseline for Common Lisp development. Emacs has its' fair share of faults, but it is hard to beat it when it comes to cranking out code. 14:17:10 -!- devD [n=devendra@unaffiliated/dev29aug] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:19:15 devD_ [n=devendra@unaffiliated/dev29aug] has joined #lisp 14:20:28 tic, i open foo.lisp, F12. no happens... 14:21:55 alex_, I created but after putting the slime code emacs start with slime not in default mode. now what to do ? 14:23:12 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 14:24:55 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:24:58 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 14:26:38 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:28:23 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-78-176.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 14:28:49 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-78-176.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:30:43 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=rot13@96.52.239.77] has quit ["testing new config"] 14:30:57 chris2_ [n=chris@188.110.58.127] has joined #lisp 14:36:19 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 14:38:39 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 14:39:35 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 14:39:49 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-218.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:40:47 shrughes [n=shrughes@c-65-96-172-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:04 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-218.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 14:41:37 alex_, I'm not sure. Did you move it to the proper location and create symlinks? 14:41:55 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-2-186.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 14:45:41 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-092-075-032-065.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:46:36 fiveop_ [n=fiveop@g229067139.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:48:10 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229071096.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:48:34 tic, yes 14:49:03 or i need put limp.vim into ~/.vim/plugins? 14:50:33 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-30-82-253-179-187.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:20 Axius [n=ade@92.82.68.22] has joined #lisp 14:52:02 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:08 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.202.139] has joined #lisp 14:53:19 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:53:29 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:36 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.202.7] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:54:02 alex_, no, just putting the symlinks in placing and making sure they point to the right locations is enough. 14:54:56 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:59:54 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:00:11 -!- madsy [n=madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit ["leaving"] 15:00:17 chris2__ [n=chris@dslb-188-099-113-206.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:47 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 15:00:52 Oddity [n=Oddity@99.199.136.138] has joined #lisp 15:00:58 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:02:48 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 15:04:01 there is no .emacs file where I can put slime code 15:04:25 if I create emacs starts from slime and I want default. 15:04:52 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 15:04:52 devD_: Do C-x C-f ~/.emacs 15:05:25 p_l, there is no .emacs in my ~/ . 15:05:40 write what you want in it, save (C-x C-s), exit and after restart it should be alright (restart of emacs of course) 15:05:47 devD_: it will create the file 15:06:18 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:06:27 -!- Elench is now known as Zetetic 15:06:43 -!- Zetetic is now known as Elench 15:06:47 -!- chris2__ is now known as chris2 15:06:48 p_l, yes I created and put the code of slime there but after this emacs start with slime and I want to start it from "M-x slime" 15:07:21 devD_: how are you starting emacs? and use lisppaste to paste your .emacs 15:08:29 tori [n=ade@92.82.68.22] has joined #lisp 15:08:53 I start emacs through application>programming>emacs and there is no .emacs to paste in my ~/. there is .emacs.d directory and that have a single empty folder. 15:09:38 ok 15:09:45 sorry 15:12:19 joswig [n=joswig@e177146083.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:13:17 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.82.68.22] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:14:36 -!- chris2_ [n=chris@188.110.58.127] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:15:07 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A32D8.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:17:02 wasabi [n=wasabi@nttkyo968045.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:18:01 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.43.166] has joined #lisp 15:19:14 -!- tori [n=ade@92.82.68.22] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:19:27 merl15_ [n=merl@80-121-55-143.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:19:38 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 15:20:30 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177122057.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:22:58 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.132] has joined #lisp 15:25:21 -!- wasabi [n=wasabi@nttkyo968045.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:28:18 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-135.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:25 -!- joswig [n=joswig@e177146083.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 15:29:14 wasabi [n=wasabi@nttkyo968045.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:29:50 try making file ~/.emacs.d/init.el 15:30:07 joswig [n=joswig@e177146083.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:30:21 -!- joswig [n=joswig@e177146083.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:31:26 -!- alex_ [n=alex@95.72.77.6] has quit ["    (xchat 2.4.5  )"] 15:31:37 -!- YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:32:35 lispm [n=joswig@e177146083.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:33:46 bye 15:33:57 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d069b51.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["(quit :forever nil)"] 15:34:31 KatrinaTheLamia [n=root13@li130-87.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:34:42 Looks like serichsen managed to connect to freenode through port 21. 15:35:54 -!- merl15 [n=merl@80-121-10-236.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:36:45 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-29-151.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:38:23 benny [n=benny@i577A3A6E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:39:09 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-32-162.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:48:22 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.124.207.62] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:49:29 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:52:12 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.124.207.62] has joined #lisp 15:53:42 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:54:45 btw, do you think packaging SLIME, redshank, paredit and prepared template config (with few conditional flags) is a good idea for a quickstart package? 15:54:47 milanj [n=milan@77.46.169.199] has joined #lisp 15:55:31 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:56:38 (template having slime-fancy and redshank enabled, with autodoc on, with paredit loaded but not enabled?) 15:57:04 p_l, you want the asdf extensions also 15:58:20 Younder: I was considering bundling asdf-binary-locations and asdf-system-connections 15:59:21 -!- wasabi [n=wasabi@nttkyo968045.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has left #lisp 16:01:07 any suggestions? 16:02:33 p_l, (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf)) 16:05:22 p_l, I use clbuild. I build the dependency tree each time I start slime, most use a directory of symlinks and make a command to update that if they change it. My method has the advantage that you never have a discrepancy between if you add or delete libraries. 16:06:33 p_l, It does add 10 sec's or so to startup 16:11:49 redblue [i=star@ppp016.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:15:46 how can I substitute a character in a string with an string? like (substitute #\< "<" "") 16:17:49 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@9.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:19:29 if you want to escape html, why not use, for example, hunchentoot:escape-for-html ? 16:20:12 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@244.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:22:38 stassats: because I dont want to use hunchentoot? 16:22:54 you can copy it from hunchentoot 16:25:03 proun [n=proun@cpe-76-180-84-142.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:26:19 anyone know offhand how to use the "table.field" syntax in clsql? 16:26:19 -!- frontiers [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:26:43 frontiers [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:40 do they also have a url converter? like "foo://bar" => "foo://bar" 16:29:04 (forgot the \s) 16:30:08 wakeup, what about using one of the HTML output libraries? 16:30:18 minion, tell wakeup about cl-who 16:30:20 wakeup: have a look at cl-who: CL-WHO is yet another specimen of the Lisp Markup Languages category, that is, it's a Web library to create (X)HTML from S-expressions. http://www.cliki.net/cl-who 16:30:39 Adlai: I am using lisp-cgi-utils at the moment 16:30:49 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.100.247] has joined #lisp 16:31:05 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.214.188] has joined #lisp 16:34:24 -!- devD_ [n=devendra@unaffiliated/dev29aug] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:36:51 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:37:16 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:38:08 dnolen [n=dnolen@ppp-70-249-155-206.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:27 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:42:39 -!- TDT [n=dthole@173-30-223-49.client.mchsi.com] has quit [] 16:42:40 <[df]> what's the easiest way to read from a stream into a string until eof? 16:42:56 <[df]> read-sequence looks good but appears to require you to know the length beforehand 16:43:24 <[df]> or I could loop and call read-line 16:43:53 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:53 with-output-to-string+loop 16:44:00 kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:47 <[df]> and read-line? 16:46:02 minion: paste 91980? 16:46:02 Paste number 91980: "fwiw, the proper version" by stassats in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/91980 16:46:13 [df]: that's for you 16:46:53 <[df]> thanks 16:47:50 (with-open-file (file-stream "foo.txt") (with-output-to-string (string-stream) (alexandria:copy-stream file-stream string-stream))) 16:50:10 there's also alexandria:read-file-into-string, but the above generalizes to any input stream 16:50:12 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:51:09 <[df]> yeah, this needs to do that 16:51:16 <[df]> I don't really want to involve dependencies though 16:51:28 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:51:50 Alexandria got a lot of useful stuff. But I can share your sentiment. 16:52:01 [df]: I usually just copy the definitions from alexandria into a utils.lisp 16:52:11 with comment where they come from 16:55:22 slyrus [n=slyrus@customer-74.203.304.pdchawaii.com] has joined #lisp 16:58:25 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:58:25 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:00:30 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp016.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:01:41 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 17:02:08 PeakerWork [n=PeakerWo@nat/ibm/x-ywmrljmjcydwohqa] has joined #lisp 17:08:27 clhs generic-function 17:08:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_generi.htm 17:08:59 "and can be given a global or a local name." -- is that referring to GENERIC-FLET ? 17:10:04 probably 17:10:37 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:44 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:07 tic: You're using StumpWM but echew Emacs? 17:14:12 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:01 plage [n=user@123.19.43.20] has joined #lisp 17:23:12 Good evening! 17:24:28 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@9.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:24:42 fe[nl]ix: How are things? 17:25:14 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:25:31 jmbr [n=jmbr@9.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:25:49 -!- kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:32:23 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:24 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:32:32 kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:41 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:34:33 -!- plage [n=user@123.19.43.20] has left #lisp 17:38:19 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:38:40 -!- davazp [n=user@12.Red-83-55-178.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:47:15 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:47:18 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:47:47 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:50:58 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:53:45 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.86.102] has joined #lisp 17:54:25 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:31 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:50 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:09:00 -!- kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:09:10 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:09:53 Krystof: Common cold doesn't seem like a good idea to me. Maybe we could extend LOOP to make it do coroutines. A binary serialisation package, otoh... 18:11:09 but what really is the use of coroutines? 18:11:34 rahul: instead of CPS for event handlers. 18:11:41 it just seems like cooperative multithreading to me 18:11:45 rahul: right. 18:11:52 pkhuong: I don't see how it's needed for event handlers 18:11:58 rahul: ok. 18:12:03 rahul: its just a nicer syntax for event handlers.. 18:12:09 it's important for long running handlers so that they yield 18:12:16 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.100.247] has left #lisp 18:12:21 as an alternative to spawning a thread 18:12:25 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.156.187.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 18:12:25 rahul: indeed, we are considering the non-trivial case. 18:12:39 JonSmith [n=jon@c-71-233-58-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:49 rahul: instead of an event handler registering a new handler, and returning. it "blocks" the coroutine, and the new handler's code is "inlined" after the blocking call 18:12:50 pkhuong: in this age when threads are almost essential for utilizing system resources optimally? 18:12:54 minion: memo for nikodemus: I guess sb-locative is nice because it lets us avoid some repetition for cas, setf, xadd and xchg. We'd have to make sure it doesn't screw up too badle with the quality of the codegen (not that it matters much, given the current best-case cost of these operations). 18:12:55 Remembered. I'll tell nikodemus when he/she/it next speaks. 18:13:08 rahul: sure. 18:13:10 PeakerWork: I don't see how that's a huge win 18:13:15 PeakerWork: or any win at all 18:13:21 rahul: Most people consider it much more readable/maintainable 18:13:21 Well coroutines simplifies the definition of iterators. 18:13:40 Or in general any stateful behaviour. 18:13:45 rahul: Some people like working in CPS. Others like being hanged upside down. 18:14:01 rahul: I think its quite a sweeping (and wrong) generalization to say that use of threads is essential for utilizing system resources optimally, and does not relate to the way threads are used to handle connections' concurrency in general, too 18:14:19 PeakerWork: putting (register-event-handler 'click-event (lambda () ...)) is much harder than (wait-until 'click-event) ... ? 18:14:24 s/connections'/anything-that-uses-CPS 18:14:54 rahul: not much, but it is harder (and the effect of many of those calls may add up to something non-negligible) 18:15:07 rahul: anonymous inner classes VS closures. What's your point? 18:15:14 rahul: It gets harder when you have something like (print (+ 1 (get-a-number))) 18:15:31 rahul: Handling get-a-number via a get-a-number-event, that is. 18:15:51 I'll note that in doesn't follow from "threads are almost essential for utilising system resources optimally" that all concurrency and inversion of control should be handled with threads. 18:16:05 To use the simula notation, finish a part of a algorithm and detach. On next call you just continue where you left off. The corouties take care of maintaining state (local variables etc.) 18:16:07 Zhivago: maybe... but you're being dishonest about the linearity of control flow to the user 18:16:27 rahul: Hmm, I guess we'd better not use loop, then ... 18:16:31 Zhivago: events can happen in a variety of orders and ways 18:16:42 Zhivago: in loop, the flow is as you write it. 18:16:54 rahul: No, it just _appears to be_ as I write it. 18:16:57 with events, it could end up rewinding for various reasons 18:17:02 rahul: Otherwise we couldn't do any optimizations. 18:17:20 Zhivago: optimization is orthogonal. I understand that aspect 18:17:28 but it has to APPEAR linear 18:17:41 rahul: This appears linear from inside the coroutine. 18:17:53 Say you have a lexer. It takes a character stream in and on each call returns a token. Coroutines makes this simpler to do. 18:18:01 Zhivago: except when you have an application with more than one action 18:18:11 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6C2B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:25 rahul: Nah, you'd use an event queue to serialize it. 18:18:30 how would you express emacs as a linear loop? 18:18:45 With lots of read-char :) 18:18:57 what about all the handling? 18:19:06 rahul: potentially with multiple loops ("linear loop" isn't that an oxymoron?) 18:19:27 pkhuong: as opposed to a loop that can go left, right, up, and down 18:19:28 Well, read-event or whatever, as well. 18:19:47 a loop that is a state machine? 18:19:54 I don't think adding coroutines as a aftertthough helps much. It is better to stick with the CL way of doing things. 18:20:09 pkhuong: there's no "arrow of time" in the progression in most substantial applications 18:20:12 I prefer prog* for looping 18:22:39 pkhuong: coroutines probably work best for applicaitons with a tree-structure in their state graph 18:23:02 pkhuong: eliding "undo" operations 18:23:18 tcr/fe[nl]ix: would alexandria be interested in a much faster variance, based on variance = E[x^2] - E[x]^2? 18:23:50 I have no idea, you should ask nikodemus 18:24:03 It's less stable, numerically, but also hundreds of times faster... 18:24:06 he's the only one of the original gang of four (five?) behind alexandria 18:24:16 who cares 18:24:43 or might care :-), perhaps both should be provided 18:24:46 about variance? I can compute the variance of a couple million samples sometimes. 18:24:51 You'd want both, definitely. 18:25:30 It's less stable due to the subtraction? 18:26:24 due to the subtraction of two potentially large values. 18:27:58 maybe you could have it do the faster one and then fall back if it notices that the two values are close in order of magnitude? 18:28:27 possibly a keyword arg to force one or the other exclusively if the caller knows which one they want 18:29:01 rahul: I'll let the user decide what's important. There's another issue than just the number of passes through the data; that can't explain a difference of 200 times in runtime. 18:29:21 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-30-82-253-179-187.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:29:43 The current version can probably be reimplemented to get most of the speed-up. 18:30:20 boarding my last plane now. at last. 18:30:50 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-249-3.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:51 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:31:08 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:41:40 Younder: btw, I've got recursive search in ASDF for that 18:42:19 CBro2007 [n=manukaul@c-7996e253.026-209-73746f13.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:47:40 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-188-099-113-206.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:48:06 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.156.187.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 18:53:52 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 18:56:11 -!- nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:57:31 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6C2B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:02:53 Axius [n=ade@92.84.11.22] has joined #lisp 19:05:27 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.84.11.22] has quit [Client Quit] 19:10:01 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:10:13 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-175-213.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:11:15 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.169.199] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:11:51 -!- proun [n=proun@cpe-76-180-84-142.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["leaving"] 19:14:14 aintme [n=user@1.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:19:13 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:30 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 19:22:58 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:25:51 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.214.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:26:25 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 19:30:02 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:11 pkhuong: oh, maybe I was thinking of the wrong thing of yours that did serialization 19:35:04 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:35:23 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:36:37 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-49-51.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:38:31 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:39:21 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177146083.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:41:27 NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-37-82-253-13-222.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:11 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:49:10 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:14 Axius [n=ade@92.84.11.22] has joined #lisp 19:51:48 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:53 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-249-3.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:59:27 lacedaemon [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-130-200.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:00:46 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@ABordeaux-158-1-130-200.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:00:53 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 20:04:10 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:12:15 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:12:25 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:12:45 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:13:06 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 20:14:08 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:15:13 Did anyone experiment with implementing a type-checked language on top of Lisp, using macros? 20:15:35 (type-checked as in, early/statically-type-checked) 20:15:48 well, initial implementations of Haskell and ML were in Lisp, I believe 20:15:51 see also Qi 20:16:03 I'm not sure what you mean by "using macros", but I'm sure that at least one of those used at least one macro 20:16:32 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 20:17:32 stassats: here? 20:18:20 Krystof: afaik, Haskell was never implemented in Lisp -- are you sure? 20:18:51 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:19:12 Krystof: I mean, not implementing a reader+interpreter/compiler for a new language, but rather, defining a new type-checked DSL within Lisp's environment itself. AFAIU, that requires macros (so they you get to run code to type-check definitions) 20:20:32 -!- shrughes [n=shrughes@c-65-96-172-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:20:58 minion: memo for hefner: Could you give http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/autodoc.diff a go? It should make autodoc very fast, but there may be code edge cases where it will error (that is, it'll display an error message in the minibuffer; in that case, please provide me the relevant buffer content which triggers the bug) -- I'll try to iron it somewhat out before comitting. 20:20:59 Remembered. I'll tell hefner when he/she/it next speaks. 20:21:13 minion: memo for stassats: Could you give http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/autodoc.diff a go? It should make autodoc very fast, but there may be code edge cases where it will error (that is, it'll display an error message in the minibuffer; in that case, please provide me the relevant buffer content which triggers the bug) -- I'll try to iron it somewhat out before comitting. 20:21:13 Remembered. I'll tell stassats when he/she/it next speaks. 20:22:49 Summermute [n=Summermu@c-98-204-67-114.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:54 Anyone else is invited to try the patch as well, of course. 20:24:44 For example, anyone who got a netbook. There was one a user who was annoyed by the immense slowdown on his netbook. 20:25:23 tcr: btw, what's with that recentish message that says it's fontitfying the slime compilation buffer? 20:26:18 You can turn that off. look into the archive, or ask stassats (and also ask him for / send a patch to the manual) 20:26:27 It's not our fault 20:26:38 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.84.11.22] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:26:46 luis: You should try the patch too. 20:27:32 Hopefully that will catch two, or three bugs :-) I did some random testing on sbcl's source files which went through. 20:28:30 *luis* applies the patch 20:28:53 PeakerWork: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/code/syntax/haskell/ ? 20:29:02 luis: thank you! 20:30:03 tcr: this machine seems to be fast enough that I don't notice the difference. 20:30:11 Let me try it on my XO-1. 20:30:48 you need to test it on long function definitions 20:31:06 or sbcl/package-data-list.lisp-expr 20:31:50 schme: is that an interpreter? cool 20:32:14 PeakerWork: if anything it mostly looks like scheme code. ehehehe. 20:32:55 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6C2B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:00 madsy [n=madsy@ti0050a380-1992.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 20:35:28 tcr: oh, nice (setq font-lock-verbose nil) fixes it. Awesome. 20:36:37 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:39 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 20:39:41 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:39:59 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:40:41 -!- billitch [n=billitch@fac34-6-82-240-131-189.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["http://b.lowh.net/billitch"] 20:41:08 PeakerWork: early Haskell work was all prototyped on CL.... later there was a hardware implementation, Hugs and some other compilers... then GHC came introducing IO Monad 20:41:19 *p_l* shudders at pre-monadic I/O in haskell 20:41:41 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 20:41:42 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:42:40 p_l: GHC came - and later they used monadic IO instead of lists/CPS 20:42:52 p_l: I don't think the 2 were related 20:43:59 PeakerWork: The oldest mention of I/O monad I found was in a chapter describing GHC and it's awesome new thing called Monads, in a very old Haskell book 20:44:43 and the future-based I/O looked freaky even from type definition :/ 20:45:52 *drewc* just got here, but knows of http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/code/syntax/haskell/ 20:46:01 p_l: I think GHC worked before monads were discovered as a means to chain together IO actions 20:46:48 PeakerWork: sure. It's just that GHC apparently introduced them to Haskell 20:46:52 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:40 Monads as a catetegory theory contruct exsisted long before Haskell started using them 20:49:07 no kiddin' 20:49:28 Younder: I know, I was talking from the pov of programmer 20:49:32 I hindsight it solved some of the fundemental problems of lazy evauation. Getting things to happen in a spesified order. 20:49:35 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 20:50:30 Younder: And much, much more 20:50:39 Haskellers like the fact that they are different and stand out because they 'flag' state driven code. Good if you want things to run in paralell. 20:50:46 Monads are not about IO, they are useful for many other things 20:51:14 Monads are about state.. 20:51:38 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 20:51:45 a damson is tasty 20:51:46 Younder: no, they are not 20:51:54 monads have little to do with lazy evaluation either. 20:51:56 Younder: Take for example the List monad, or the Continuation monad 20:52:03 Younder: or The Maybe, or Either monads 20:52:10 s/The/the 20:52:47 Krystof: the plum? 20:54:18 You can write a list interface without monads. It does imlpy that you need the original list as a argument. (You don't actually copy the list since you know there are no side effects.) 20:54:31 "monads are staty" is an anagram of "damson are tasty", which makes about as much sense 20:54:44 *Krystof* is whimsical 20:54:45 Younder: and you can thread state across a computation without monads too. Monad is just a certain structure that various things can match 20:54:46 -!- j0be [n=j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:54:49 Krystof: that you are! 20:55:21 Younder: "Monad" is not magic, just a type-class to re-use common code 20:56:40 You use the as you would mutable in Ocalm. Or/And to introduce sequentiality. I am NOT refering to WHAT they are but WHERE they are used. 20:56:59 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:16 kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:21 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.43.166] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:57:35 monads would make Ocalm simpler, it's just Ocalm's razor. 20:57:47 As for Maybe, Either it is needed to connect monads. 20:59:28 Younder: Monads are used in many many ways, IO/State is just one of them 20:59:50 I love the list monad 20:59:51 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-167-185.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:01:03 -!- madsy [n=madsy@ti0050a380-1992.bb.online.no] has quit ["leaving"] 21:01:05 Yes.. I think array's need monads to work efficiently, as for list I never saw the point. 21:01:13 Younder: here's an example: 21:01:19 powerset = filterM (const [True, False]) 21:01:40 Younder: Using filterM in the list monad, allows me to both filter in, and filter out, each element of a given list 21:01:44 madsy [n=madsy@ti0050a380-1992.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 21:01:48 Younder: which yields all possible combinations -- which gives me a powerset 21:01:57 Younder: This is the nicest definition of a powerset I've ever seen :-) 21:02:02 Odditus [n=Oddity@99.199.136.138] has joined #lisp 21:02:11 -!- madsy is now known as Madsy 21:03:13 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-165-100.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:34 OK, I have just worked my way through 'Real word Haskell' so there are probaly a lot of things I don't fully appreciate. 21:05:06 ok everybody... lets stop talking about haskell and get back on topic! 21:05:13 WastePotato [i=4d65a03a@gateway/web/freenode/x-pbxedfmcfxtxlfmh] has joined #lisp 21:05:27 so, how can I implement filterM in CL? 21:07:23 I think so, I have been experimenting with monads as a means to compartementalise operations. The idea is the each unit is like a lego block and you can plug them together any way you like as long as the types line up. 21:07:24 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 21:07:47 You have to do this dynamically not statically of cource.. 21:08:16 (in Lisp ...) 21:08:20 -!- aintme [n=user@1.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["/* */"] 21:08:57 the problem I see in Lisp, is that I'm not sure how to write type-classes with dynamic types. This is why I asked before about implementing static typing via macros or what not 21:09:26 PeakerWork: see Qi 21:09:36 minion: tell PeakerWork about Qi 21:09:37 PeakerWork: look at Qi: Qi should probably be categorized as a Library. http://www.cliki.net/Qi 21:09:53 what a nice description 21:09:53 stassats, memo from tcr: Could you give http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/autodoc.diff a go? It should make autodoc very fast, but there may be code edge cases where it will error (that is, it'll display an error message in the minibuffer; in that case, please provide me the relevant buffer content which triggers the bug) -- I'll try to iron it somewhat out before comitting. 21:10:27 stassats: silly minion/cliki :) 21:10:30 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:10:59 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:11:42 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:12:15 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:17:38 -!- Oddity [n=Oddity@99.199.136.138] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:18:14 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:19:05 -!- Odditus is now known as Oddity 21:20:35 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:22:39 In Qt you don't need event's you just connect(button, IsPressed(), application, quit()) (macros are removed). This is a example of a monad in C++. (or rather it could be) 21:23:22 -!- CBro2007 [n=manukaul@c-7996e253.026-209-73746f13.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 21:23:43 Younder: this doesn't seem to have much to do with monads at all 21:23:44 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:16 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:26:48 PeakerWork, well it would if the functions returned values and took arguments. This is a 'degenerate' monad. It more exemplifies the sort of things I would like to do. 21:27:16 -!- WastePotato [i=4d65a03a@gateway/web/freenode/x-pbxedfmcfxtxlfmh] has left #lisp 21:28:29 Ogedei [n=user@e178220086.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:28:34 how's that related to lisp? 21:29:21 I hate to be the one to spoil the fun, especially as I've contributed little or nothing to conversations here in the past few months, but... can't you just take the Haskell to #haskell? 21:31:28 i don't think anyone asked specifically about haskell 21:31:59 stassats: Younder mentioned thinking of making monadic libs for cl 21:32:49 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:32:52 xan_ [n=xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 21:33:21 pr [n=pr@p579CAE84.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:50 -!- xan [n=xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:35:52 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 21:36:03 p_l: trolls, please don't feed 'em. 21:39:07 -!- kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:39:10 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:28 drewc: troll detector took an extended leave that changes slowly into AWOL 21:42:39 p_l: add this patch : 21:43:13 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:43:14 + (find possible-troll '(younder jthing)) 21:43:22 p 21:43:26 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-184-236.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:36 p_l: that should ensure you always return T in this case :) 21:45:55 hahahaha 21:46:01 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:32 p_l: also : (when (has-irc-ops (find-user 'drewc)) (incf probability-that-a-troll-is-trolling)) 21:46:44 well, the part I actually referenced sounded sensible... a little... and I actually use something similar in parenscript (the (ps:chain ...) macro) 21:47:29 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.90.1"] 21:48:41 isn't ps:chain just function composition? 21:49:25 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:49:39 drewc: been thinking of adding some more stuff into it 21:49:55 (manipulating the environment etc., making a kind of "pipe") 21:51:01 -!- udzinari` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:51:32 p_l: why? (honestly curious, never needed such a construct in js) 21:51:42 Peaker [n=Peaker@87.69.176.150] has joined #lisp 21:52:32 drewc: the advanced version I was thinking for CL/DSLs-in-CL, not for JS itself 21:52:52 though I have to say that ps:chain is fucking awesome when dealing with JQuery :D 21:53:57 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:54:03 yeah, i think that's it's main use-case :) 21:55:19 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:25 wbraun [n=wolfgang@p5B2044B3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:00:30 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:01:48 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 22:01:56 pr [n=pr@p579CAE84.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:09 tkpapp's xarray stuff looks pretty cool. 22:05:21 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.124.207.62] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:06:02 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.124.207.62] has joined #lisp 22:07:00 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:09:57 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 22:12:28 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:12:52 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:13:00 btw, I recall someone once complaining that using sb-alien directly instead of CFFI sped up things significantly... I was wondering, wouldn't it be possible to patch CFFI (and similar libs) to rewrite the forms directly into implementation-specific code (assuming you want that)? 22:13:40 p_l: that's the general philosophy of UFFI, actually - it maps high-level UFFI to high-level implementation-specific options. 22:14:00 p_l: in practice it seemed that led to omitting features without high-level support everywhere 22:14:09 snearch [n=olaf@92.225.50.210] has joined #lisp 22:15:12 Xach: I was thinking mostly of optimizing things like mem-refs etc. 22:15:46 -!- snearch [n=olaf@92.225.50.210] has quit [Client Quit] 22:15:50 -!- Madsy [n=madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:18 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:18:17 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:18:31 p_l: i found you have to be explicit with the type on mem-refs, or it calls ensure-list all the time, you may know that already though 22:19:28 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:58 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6C2B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:25:25 p_l: I'd like to know of such cases. CFFI makes extensive use of compiler macros and generally expands to sb-alien calls 22:26:57 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:30:23 -!- prxq [n=mommer@g228075181.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:32:38 -!- wbraun [n=wolfgang@p5B2044B3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:33:40 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:34:17 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-184-128.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:37:57 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:44:10 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:44:46 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:45:22 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 22:50:27 -!- fiveop_ [n=fiveop@g229067139.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 22:51:56 fe[nl]ix: oh. Maybe it's no longer correct 22:53:40 francogrex [n=user@33.142-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 22:53:40 -!- frontiers [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:54:22 Does everyone frequently update their lisp implementations or do you stick to the old familiar one like me? 22:55:17 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 22:55:18 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:55:38 lichtblau: aroundp 22:55:39 nikodemus, memo from pkhuong: I guess sb-locative is nice because it lets us avoid some repetition for cas, setf, xadd and xchg. We'd have to make sure it doesn't screw up too badle with the quality of the codegen (not that it matters much, given the current best-case cost of these operations). 22:56:13 *_3b* updates SBCL monthly or so, ccl when it breaks 22:56:15 francogrex: i upgraded recently because i had to run sb-cga 22:56:17 minion: memo for pkhuong: ok, i'll add it to my cleanup lisp 22:56:18 Remembered. I'll tell pkhuong when he/she/it next speaks. 22:56:26 minion: forget my memos 22:56:27 minion: memo for pkhuong: ok, i'll add it to my cleanup _list_ 22:56:27 OK, I threw it out. 22:56:28 Remembered. I'll tell pkhuong when he/she/it next speaks. 22:56:36 minion: forget my memos 22:56:36 OK, I threw it out. 22:56:42 redline6561 [n=redline@adsl-074-232-249-027.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:48 madsy [n=madsy@ti0050a380-2204.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:57:03 poor minion wont know if he's coming or going 22:57:37 francogrex: upgrade sbcl only when something happens with slime that i, or i find a bug. 22:57:50 that i want to use* 23:00:35 ok; because not necessarily all updates are good. example for me, updating created conflicts with other apps/progs I use... I think when i'm confortable with something it's ok. I still use an implementation from 2008; but i'm afraid I will miss out on new things and end up being a grandfather type of programmer 23:02:52 <_3b> well, for things you intend to distribute, it would probably be better to know if it doesn't work on current implementations before you release it :) 23:03:38 <_3b> for something that will just sit on a server and run, it might make more sense to stay with what works 23:04:32 _3b: that's the thing with computer updates, they happen so quick that something you done yesterday might become obsolete today; it's like there is no good old statility. 23:04:42 stability 23:05:43 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 23:06:08 <_3b> most of the problems i've seen from upgrading implemnentations were code bugs anyway, so being forced to notice the bugs isn't all bad :) 23:06:54 <_3b> (not that i remember too many problems in general though) 23:07:01 francogrex: i found that updating incrementally takes less time, in the long run, then trying to do it all at once. clbuild makes it trivial to do, so it's not a big deal. 23:07:42 jmr1 [n=jmr@88.238.180.148] has joined #lisp 23:09:43 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229067139.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:10:34 drewc: ok for cl apps. But take for example this multi-threading thing; updating to a new implenetation that forces to support threading messed up all my shared lib building/linking 23:11:40 I'm not used to threading and i'd rather stay with implementayions that do not support it 23:12:04 <_3b> you can disable it in SBCL 23:13:00 is there and implementation that force multi-threading? afaik they only support it, not force it 23:13:17 _3b: really? how? You see sbcl is a respectable implementation that doesn't force new stuff on new. 23:13:45 <_3b> ccl does i think, at least it starts new threads on its own on osx, which causes some problems 23:14:03 jmr1: yes and ecl as well 23:14:05 -!- Peaker [n=Peaker@87.69.176.150] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:14:17 <_3b> francogrex: same way you enabled it before it was turned on by default (which isn't 'til next release i think) 23:14:35 francogrex: you can use windows port of sbcl, it doesn't support threads yet :) 23:14:46 <_3b> or that way works too :p 23:15:14 yes but the point is not threading, that was only taken as an example 23:16:36 francogrex: i see, i was joking in fact :) 23:18:14 but as _3b mentioned i think threads in sbcl can be turned off, it is interesting to learn that there is not an option for that in ccl 23:18:22 -!- madsy is now known as Madsy 23:18:23 francogrex: It seems to me that the lisp standard does not change with every update, so this maybe is not very often a real problem? 23:19:03 schme: yes luckily. Tha ANSI standards are stable and solid. I hope they remain so. 23:19:28 C went a very long way with ANSI. I hope CL as well. 23:19:34 merl15__ [n=merl@80-121-51-197.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 23:19:40 francogrex: But sure, libraries have been known to change API from one day to another (: 23:19:55 <_3b> well, C gets new official standards more often than CL is likely to 23:22:20 thank god. 23:22:40 I am against those who clamor for changing the standards 23:23:52 Well a few things maybe could be added (: 23:24:28 francogrex: ANSI Common Lisp standard seems like a pretty successful work to me, despite the whole contraversy about issues like lisp-2/lips-1, loop eg. 23:25:12 controversy? 23:25:21 fuck, I'm damn glad it's a lisp-2 23:25:28 schme: they can be added as optional ok; but keep standards as they are for the love of god 23:25:32 and loop isn't really a big deal for anyone 23:25:32 contraversy? maybe :) 23:25:41 sorry for my english :) 23:25:43 don't like it, don't use it 23:25:49 same goes for new features like threading 23:25:55 nobody's forcing you to write multithreaded programs 23:26:31 heh 23:26:37 threading is sorta essential 23:27:34 It seems the case was that threads screwed something, that wasn't intended to be threaded, over. 23:27:47 milanj [n=milan@109.93.204.115] has joined #lisp 23:28:05 so don't thread it? 23:28:34 Ralith: I'm not the one that had the issue. 23:28:42 I know. 23:28:55 oh (: 23:28:58 -!- milanj [n=milan@109.93.204.115] has quit [Client Quit] 23:29:19 I luuuv threads meself. 23:30:40 cffi seems to be problematic with threading 23:30:54 Really? 23:31:07 _3b: what is the current condition of your flash lib? 23:31:30 francogrex: I can't remember any time I encountered some cffi + thread related issue. 23:31:35 _3b: is it ready to be released, i hope so :) 23:31:36 CFFI seems to be working fine with threads for everyone else. 23:31:56 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:33:25 the usual interpretation seems to be working fine for everyone else :P 23:34:10 -!- Summermute [n=Summermu@c-98-204-67-114.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]"] 23:34:51 <_3b> jmr1: which, the compiler or the .swf lib? (both are publicly available though) 23:35:00 -!- merl15_ [n=merl@80-121-55-143.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:35:49 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6C2B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:59 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-131.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:04 _3b: hmm, i thought you were still testing it 23:38:01 can you send the link, the project wasn't on common-lisp or cliki i guess 23:38:54 <_3b> http://github.com/3b/3bil and http://github.com/3b/3b-swf 23:41:04 <_3b> the .swf stuff should cover most of the flash 10 stuff to at least some degree, but the API isn't very nice or coherent, and some of the tags don't have all the details (audio/video stuff in particular) 23:41:26 <_3b> and some decode in more detail than is really needed for a lot of use cases, which slows things down 23:42:49 do any of you realize how much it costs to maintain a standard? 23:42:53 <_3b> the compiler is much less complete, but usable within its limitations 23:43:06 well, I'm sure some of you do, but those who want changes and additions 23:43:43 I mean, sure, if you want a chapter added to ANSI CL and you pay the million or so dollars it will cost, people probably won't object 23:44:36 is there a short tutorial or manual kinda thing for libs? 23:44:48 jmr1: libs? 23:44:53 -!- francogrex [n=user@33.142-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:45:48 for the libs that _3b wrote, i am sorry for not tagging my sentence 23:45:53 jmr1: each library's documentation is probably going to be different from the others... and it's likely to be found where you get the library itsel 23:46:33 oh ok 23:46:56 no, i am sorry, i didn't ask about cl libs in general but i forgot to add a name tag to my sentence :\ 23:47:02 <_3b> jmr1: not really, there is some sample code in the compiler, and it uses the .swf lib to build the .swf 23:47:30 <_3b> to some extent, documentation has to wait until i use it enough to figure out final APIs :) 23:48:23 heh, the documentation for Multics was written before the code 23:48:30 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 23:48:46 it's kind of a good way to develop specifications 23:48:54 <_3b> any documentation i wrote before code would have probably been wrong :) 23:49:23 <_3b> though i suppose the important parts are written to existing specs (CL and .swf docs) 23:49:32 well, that was partly the case with the multics docs... they had to be revised... but the major critical aspects of the program ended up being pretty clearly specified 23:49:58 <_3b> they probably knew their problem domain better than i do :) 23:50:00 _3b: anyway the code seems pretty clean, so diving into it will probably make me understand it 23:50:21 <_3b> jmr1: heh, you must not have looked very closely :) 23:50:43 <_3b> jmr1: (unless you just mean the samples, which aren;t too bad at this point) 23:50:54 _3b: function names are lispy, that's enough :D 23:51:21 <_3b> are you looking more at the .swf stuff or the compiler? 23:52:27 -!- xan_ is now known as xan 23:53:53 _3b: i was skimming through the swf stuff code right now 23:54:27 _3b: Yeah, that style of development wouldn't work too well if applied to PAIP's applications :) 23:56:34 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:56:52 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:57:57 <_3b> jmr1: yeah, the .swf stuff has most of the real ugliness compressed into the macros for defining things, and the actual definitions on top of those aren't too bad 23:59:12 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:59:25 <_3b> jmr1: it works for what i need it for now, but isn't quite as flexible or robust as i would like