00:00:59 rpg [n=rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has joined #lisp 00:01:36 hmm.. I just found the submission dates, won't have enough time to preapre anything... though I might have material for 2011 00:01:57 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:07:53 -!- davazp [n=user@191.Red-83-55-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:08:17 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 00:08:45 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 00:09:06 kjbrock [n=kevin@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:29 -!- ruediger_ is now known as ruediger 00:11:44 -!- merl15 [n=merl@80-121-36-163.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:16:31 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:18 jsnell: Hi, are you there? 00:18:23 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:22:51 -!- xan [n=xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:23:56 ruediger_ [n=quassel@93-82-5-170.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 00:23:56 -!- ruediger_ [n=quassel@93-82-5-170.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:24:13 ruediger_ [n=quassel@93-82-5-170.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 00:24:46 hi huangjs 00:24:55 hi c|mell! 00:25:36 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:26:04 c|mell: how's the trip? 00:26:45 mission accomplished; now i am in malaysia thinking about doing something in lisp again 00:27:14 are you guys starting to meddle with sbcl? 00:27:37 c|mell: oh, great, malaysia, it's not very far. what do you want to do next? 00:27:42 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:28:05 started looking for a job yesterday :) 00:28:12 yes, Mr. Kuroda finally got convinced to use SBCL. 00:28:27 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:28:34 c|mell: a lisp programming job? :) 00:29:56 i doubt i will find one again 00:30:14 it would be nice to keep developing manardb but i guess nobody is interested in it 00:30:16 any https client that i can use with personal certificate ? 00:30:38 looks like drakma does not support it 00:31:27 c|mell: one thing I'm concerned about is to improve locality in manardb. 00:32:06 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:32:47 to improve locality make your class contain more of the important slots . . . 00:32:50 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:33:29 one thing that would be quite easy would be allow a class to have slots of the type of another class stored directly in it 00:34:08 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 00:34:44 Bah. I want my yearly blog posts to appear on Planet Lisps instantaneously, dammit. 00:34:59 c|mell: yes, but a schema how slots are saved in one object or in a sequence of object that maps to a byte-array would be very ncie. 00:35:24 *Planet Lisp 00:36:28 huangjs, there is a data storage format that is fixed or else the thing wouldn't work at all 00:37:35 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 00:38:20 c|mell: I'm thinking about a lower-level way, just with these 2 features: 1) efficient serialization, 2) random access by mmap. And all space optimization is managed by the programmer by providing macros for slot access abstraction. 00:38:24 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-64-39.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:38:27 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:39:07 huangjs: yes? 00:39:11 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:39:17 c|mell: it's reasonable to optimize locality for things on disk and also for things in RAM. 00:39:23 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:39 and they could share the same code which is provided by the programmers. 00:40:41 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:41:15 huangjs, yes i guess that's a generalisation of what i meant when i said " quite easy would be allow a class to have slots of the type of another class stored directly in it" 00:41:37 are you really having any performance issues with locality? 00:41:48 c|mell: not for current project. 00:42:44 c|mell: but franz has a similar one for their allegrograph, but they duplicated almost every cl datatype (hashtable, list, etc) to support their foreign-space objects... 00:43:13 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:43:17 c|mell: so they don't need to serialize/deserialize in accessing... 00:44:21 at the moment manardb only has native arrays (and lists i guess) so you'd have to add hash-tables 00:44:31 c|mell: yes. 00:45:37 i think that manardb could implement persistent hash-tables that were actually faster than the native ones in allegro 00:46:15 c|mell: what do you mean by 'being faster'? 00:48:19 I might do some survey about how to do efficient serialization on each implementation. Any advices are welcome. 00:48:22 well taking fewer cycles to add, delete and modify key-value pairs 00:48:44 huangjs: was there something you needed to ask me? 00:49:06 huangjs: I have vague plans for high-performance binary serialisation in SBCL. 00:49:24 Could take a couple months before anything pops up. 00:49:56 jsnell: Hi, yes. I read about your presentation in SBCL10, do you have slides to share? I want to know about how to tag functions to have unboxed arguments in SBCL. 00:50:07 pkhuong: hi, that would be nice. 00:50:19 -!- kjbrock [n=kevin@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [] 00:50:55 pkhuong: I'll ask you about more details when I start. :) 00:51:47 huangjs: no slides (it was a very ad hoc talk), and it's not possible yet. sorry 00:52:17 c|mell: i see. what's the problem of allegro's hash-table btw? 00:52:20 jsnell: ok, isee. 00:52:41 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host53.190-138-164.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:52:50 (well, except by inlining the function) 00:52:53 however you can avoid boxing by having the function inlined? 00:53:01 jsnell: or make it local functions. :) 00:53:01 (sorry, i was too slow) 00:53:35 jsnell: c|mell: yes. I know I could do that. but we can't make everything inlined or everything local functions. :) 00:53:42 huangjs, i never got to the bottom of why the allegro hash tables were so bad (huge memory use, really slow) 00:54:03 why not? 00:54:10 <_deepfire> minion, chant 00:54:11 MORE SLIDES 00:54:22 minion: memo for nikodemus: if you still have the code for your lock benchmark, I'd like to get my hands on it. 00:54:23 Remembered. I'll tell nikodemus when he/she/it next speaks. 00:55:45 c|mell: inlining is possible but might cause code bloat in some cases. 00:56:44 huangjs: and local functions? 00:57:17 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-67-170-35-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:49 (labes ((foo ...)) (defun ...)) 00:57:54 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:58:11 labels 00:58:14 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.248.137] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:58:38 right, what's the problem? 00:58:40 xan [n=xan@13.Red-83-36-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:35 pkhuong: er... utility functions are to be shared and functions use them are defined across different packages and files. 01:00:46 Tordek [n=tordek@host70.190-229-217.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 01:00:58 while it might hypothetically lead to poorer i-cache performance due to code bloat, you have no evidence to support that? 01:01:33 and on the other hand, duplicating function bodies sometimes gets better branch prediction . . . 01:03:53 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:04:16 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 01:04:55 c|mell: yes, better branch prediction makes sense. I-cache performance issue is a concern in code optimization, though I don't have supporting data currently since all I have done are micro-benchmarks. 01:05:05 edbian [n=ed@c-98-228-251-58.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:12 Darkwell [i=senso@unaffiliated/phantom-x] has joined #lisp 01:05:19 -!- Darkwell [i=senso@unaffiliated/phantom-x] has left #lisp 01:05:37 Can someone tell me why a function would give a "continuable error" when I load it? 01:05:51 What is a continuable error? 01:06:04 edbian: it is an error with some possible recovery methods 01:06:11 edbian: you can continue in some way 01:06:13 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:06:32 edbian: it is a general idea, so if you want help, you need to be more specific 01:06:39 c|mell: I need to get out now (one of my SH friends came yesterday and we plan to have fun in Akihabara). Have fun! see you :) 01:06:40 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.108.252] has joined #lisp 01:07:36 Xach, What if I show you the code? It's only 3 or so lines that are the problem 01:07:46 Xach, Thanks! :) 01:08:20 huangjs, have a good time (and btw the manardb thing does support that stuff, i just remembered, but the api is not exported) 01:08:39 (defun list-length (list) 01:08:39 (if (eq nil (rest list)) 1 01:08:39 (+ 1 (list-length (rest list))))) 01:09:31 c|mell: which one? I've read the code briefly. 01:09:40 edbian, you should usually post code at lisppaste. Check the channel's topic. 01:09:41 edbian, use http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp for pastes 01:09:55 Adlai, sorry guys! I'm new here I didn't realize. 01:10:04 huangjs, it supports custom slot serialisation/deserialisation 01:10:08 c|mell, Sorry! :P 01:10:14 it's ok, that was a short sample. Some people paste -lots- of code... 01:10:26 edbian: list-length is a standard function. the consequences are undefined if you define a function named cl:list-length 01:10:37 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 01:10:37 c|mell: i see. talk to you later. 01:10:51 Xach, So it's just a namespace issue? 01:11:18 edbian: What does the error say? 01:11:47 rrice1 [n=rrice@adsl-99-164-109-247.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:56 edbian, I found http://www.flownet.com/ron/packages.pdf helpful when trying to understand packages. See also http://l1sp.org/pcl/defpackage 01:12:10 ron's package guide is terrible. 01:12:18 it'd help if someone wrote something non-terrible. 01:12:28 -!- rrice1 [n=rrice@adsl-99-164-109-247.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:12:41 really? it helped me :| 01:12:47 Xach, It's a continuable error: "DEFUN/DEFMACRO(LIST-LENGTH): # is locked 01:12:57 edbian: yes, in that case, the problem is the name you chose. 01:13:06 Xach, Changing the name solved the issue. Thank you! 01:13:28 Adlai, I get it, the function is already defined in the common-lisp package. Thanks for the help 01:13:41 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-99-164-109-247.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:05 -!- sykopomp|work [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:16:08 Adlai: I wish there was something with the upsides but not the downsides. 01:17:29 (as #\RonGarret "Lexicons!") 01:18:58 Adlai: no, i mean a package guide. 01:19:15 *Adlai* does naught but jest 01:19:41 billitch [n=billitch@fac34-6-82-240-131-189.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:55 kwinz3_ [n=kwinz@85.124.207.144] has joined #lisp 01:20:03 I'd find it hard to write such a guide because it really bugs me that the package system isn't hierarchical 01:20:19 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:20:58 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:21:17 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:30 for me, the most annoying thing is that you can't import a symbol into a package under a local alias 01:25:13 konr [n=user@201.82.136.87] has joined #lisp 01:26:03 c|mell, what would you want (symbol-name 'aliased-symbol) to be? 01:27:21 Adlai: "UNALIASED-NAME" 01:29:59 -!- rpg [n=rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:30:06 Oh, my blog post did show up on Planet Lisp but I screwed the date up, darn. 01:30:18 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-5de570d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:30:35 I guess that makes sense, since it'd still be the same symbol object. 01:33:34 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.36] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:33:51 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.124.207.132] has joined #lisp 01:34:06 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:34:38 <_deepfire> Did anybody ever hear of the Vesta ? 01:35:27 <_deepfire> Integrated, holistic source and version control, system construction and build conglomerate. 01:36:12 that would be quite acceptable to me :) 01:37:44 <_deepfire> Sounds like they had in 2000 stuff XCVB only provides now. 01:38:07 <_deepfire> Made by DEC people, open sourced in 2001. 01:39:56 rukubites [n=user@114.78.131.136] has joined #lisp 01:43:01 yeah, I heard of that a while back 01:43:01 -!- kwinz3_ [n=kwinz@85.124.207.144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:43:04 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:43:19 Is there a better way to get updated slime than cvs? 01:43:30 kwinz3_ [n=kwinz@85.125.182.229] has joined #lisp 01:43:33 rukubites, git 01:43:35 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 01:43:37 git with the times! 01:43:44 Where is it hosted on git? 01:43:52 I use git every day 01:44:28 I google "lisp slime", it hits the common-lisp.net page, and it still links to cvs. 01:44:38 Is it hosted on github? 01:44:43 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 01:45:16 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:19 Looks like there are a ton of git mirrors. Is one canonical? 01:45:36 I don't think so. 01:46:49 antifuch's is close to it 01:47:22 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-5de570d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:47:47 -!- amnesiac_ [n=amnesiac@c-67-169-77-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:48:00 I am a little concerned about updating my slime. The old version I have been using for about 1.5 years doesn't seem to work with modern sbcl. 01:50:14 Xach: boinker was where I was going anyway, so you confirmed it. 01:54:01 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.124.207.132] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:56:42 rukubites pasted "My slime setup" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92339 01:57:07 Is there any cool features added recently that I am missing out on? 01:57:55 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:59:05 real quick: how do you say (<= 3 someInt) ?? 01:59:33 clhs <= 01:59:34 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq_sle.htm 01:59:42 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:00:38 TR2N` [i=email@89-180-232-154.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 02:01:22 baffling question 02:01:45 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["tv time"] 02:02:05 Adlai, Thanks :) 02:02:46 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:58 kwinz__ [n=kwinz@85.124.207.12] has joined #lisp 02:07:13 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:10:13 redblue [i=star@ppp106.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:13:00 -!- fiveop_ [n=fiveop@g229183025.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 02:15:15 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.212.121] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:15:39 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:15:54 -!- kwinz3_ [n=kwinz@85.125.182.229] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:16:15 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.124.207.73] has joined #lisp 02:17:52 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 02:18:02 djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:30 -!- retupmoca` [n=retupmoc@adsl-76-235-180-224.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:18:44 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 02:19:44 retupmoca` [n=retupmoc@adsl-76-235-166-47.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:27 -!- rukubites [n=user@114.78.131.136] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:21:49 -!- ruediger_ [n=quassel@93-82-5-170.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:23:02 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit ["leaving"] 02:25:12 -!- xan [n=xan@13.Red-83-36-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:25:13 lispnik [n=user@ppp-70-253-67-180.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:23 -!- lispnik [n=user@ppp-70-253-67-180.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:27:03 -!- kwinz__ [n=kwinz@85.124.207.12] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:27:35 kwinz3_ [n=kwinz@85.124.207.68] has joined #lisp 02:28:18 -!- r0bby_ is now known as r0bby 02:29:28 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 02:30:08 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:30:17 dnolen [n=dnolen@12.130.116.147] has joined #lisp 02:32:02 nicdev [i=nmollel1@x178.cs.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 02:32:06 -!- nicdev [i=nmollel1@x178.cs.amherst.edu] has left #lisp 02:32:19 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:36:15 -!- djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:37:38 <_deepfire> Adlai, I love how your answer works on two different levels :-) 02:37:40 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:37:54 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.124.207.73] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:38:06 rukubites [n=user@114.78.131.136] has joined #lisp 02:38:16 djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:35 shrughes [n=shrughes@c-65-96-172-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:51 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-49-51.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 02:43:18 Yay, this is the lisp I adore! old slime doesn't work with new sbcl, and new slime didn't work with alisp's shipped version of asdf. 02:44:18 alisp -> allegroCL? 02:44:40 yes. 02:44:59 did you just load the portable version of asdf? :) 02:45:02 Yes 02:45:04 and it worked. 02:45:22 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:45:29 I use alisp for work and sbcl for personal projects. 02:45:33 _deepfire, true... I guess maybe I should have said "clhs <=", with the quotes... 02:46:53 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 02:47:14 -!- Oddity [n=Oddity@99.199.136.138] has quit [] 02:47:27 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 02:50:05 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-28-112.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:50:07 commonMan [n=user@59.164.186.218] has joined #lisp 02:50:18 rukubites: there's a simple solution to that problem ;) 02:51:53 pkhuong: Well the simple solution I used was to just load the portable asdf in .clinitrc. 02:52:44 commonMa` [n=user@59.164.186.218] has joined #lisp 02:52:45 -!- commonMan [n=user@59.164.186.218] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:52:50 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@12.130.116.147] has quit [] 02:53:02 dnolen [n=dnolen@12.130.116.147] has joined #lisp 02:56:27 slyrus [n=slyrus@customer-74.203.304.pdchawaii.com] has joined #lisp 02:58:45 seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:34 orion [n=quassel@nat-portal-160-94-47-16.uofm.wireless.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 03:05:53 -!- orion is now known as Guest27750 03:08:48 -!- Guest27750 [n=quassel@nat-portal-160-94-47-16.uofm.wireless.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:11:17 cathy_chang [n=wangchan@222.90.207.195] has joined #lisp 03:11:41 -!- cathy_chang [n=wangchan@222.90.207.195] has left #lisp 03:14:12 -!- commonMa` [n=user@59.164.186.218] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:24:27 -!- obneq [n=lukas@80-219-169-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:27:04 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:27:41 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:28:43 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@12.130.116.147] has quit [] 03:29:04 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:30:38 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 03:30:40 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@60.54.96.53] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:31:46 whoppix_ [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 03:33:48 -!- edbian [n=ed@c-98-228-251-58.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:33:50 -!- billitch [n=billitch@fac34-6-82-240-131-189.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 03:34:16 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 03:34:22 billitch [n=billitch@fac34-6-82-240-131-189.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:35 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.251.86] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:37:02 -!- legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-31-236.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:37:07 -!- rukubites [n=user@114.78.131.136] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:37:25 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:38:11 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-32-164.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:51:48 wakeup^ [n=wakeup@koln-5d81ab7a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:48 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:52:43 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:53:57 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 03:56:08 PassingStranger [n=Horst@p54BF646F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:21 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.108.252] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:08:01 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d815970.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:08:55 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 04:13:16 -!- balooga1 [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has left #lisp 04:17:35 PassingStranger_ [n=Horst@p54BF5481.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:18:02 satiricon [n=david@190.51.102.52] has joined #lisp 04:20:32 -!- jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:21:02 jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 04:24:16 -!- PassingStranger [n=Horst@p54BF646F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:26:55 cabvot [i=42a1d3ae@gateway/web/freenode/x-btjyghmggwiqywti] has joined #lisp 04:30:28 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 04:31:41 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.214.188] has joined #lisp 04:36:36 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-131.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 04:36:56 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.182.185] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:38:11 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp106.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:38:21 The :initarg option in defclass should always make an initialization argument vaild, correct? 04:41:56 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.182.185] has joined #lisp 04:45:03 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:45:57 -!- cabvot [i=42a1d3ae@gateway/web/freenode/x-btjyghmggwiqywti] has left #lisp 04:46:10 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 04:47:33 udzinari` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 04:48:16 cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has joined #lisp 04:48:40 -!- cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has left #lisp 04:50:43 -!- binrapt [i=void@unaffiliated/binrapt] has left #lisp 04:53:59 hello there 04:54:29 is there someone who is familiar with clisp and mysql? 04:55:46 <_deepfire> Nope :-) 04:55:46 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.160] has joined #lisp 04:56:03 <_deepfire> Sorry, wrong window. 04:56:18 ahaahahaha ok 05:06:03 -!- l_n [n=shawn@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has quit ["bleh"] 05:09:34 cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has joined #lisp 05:09:42 -!- whoppix_ [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit ["Next stop at Willoughby"] 05:09:58 -!- cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has left #lisp 05:10:12 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 05:13:21 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 05:15:12 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-54.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:57 Anyone around? 05:22:57 gigamonkey, memo from wgl: curious how your nanomo has gone. Oddly, I know three people who did that. 05:23:50 minion: memo for wgl: Went well. Finished 55,000+ words and got to "The End". I hope to tidy it up and may even put it up for sale on Create Space just for grins. 05:23:51 Remembered. I'll tell wgl when he/she/it next speaks. 05:26:13 <_deepfire> So, Nix is more or less earth-shattering. 05:27:12 Nix? 05:27:16 <_deepfire> Purely functional package management. 05:27:37 what does FP have to do with system maintenance 05:28:03 sorry, may I make a very stupid but very easy question? 05:28:04 <_deepfire> You may look for yourself: nixos.org 05:28:18 <_deepfire> satiricon, fire away 05:28:22 how do I load a library in lisp?? 05:28:49 with only one question mark per sentence, for starters. 05:29:13 <_deepfire> satiricon, if you're lucky, just (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :my-library) 05:29:29 great, I do have asdf, i ll try that 05:29:46 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:30:03 _deepfire: I take it nix is written in haskell? 05:30:12 <_deepfire> satiricon, if you're a bit less lucky, your choices are either going through asdf-install or through clbuild 05:30:25 <_deepfire> Ralith, no, C++ 05:30:41 maus [n=maus@123.20.0.80] has joined #lisp 05:30:43 _deepfire, well I did a asdf-install 05:30:56 Goof afternoon! 05:31:09 Im trying to install the cl-mysql library 05:31:11 <_deepfire> And afternoon shall goof! 05:31:15 goof morning! 05:31:33 _deepfire: odd, for someone with such a FP philosophy O.o 05:31:57 how does it keep PATH and LD_LIBRARY_PATH up to date? 05:32:09 and consistent, when different packages need the latter set to different values? 05:32:42 <_deepfire> Ralith, they've got guns ans papers, don't underestimate them! 05:32:56 <_deepfire> Well, I'm not so sure about guns, actually. 05:33:05 -!- djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:33:33 <_deepfire> Anyway, http://nixos.org/nix/docs.html should answer most questions. 05:34:07 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:34:42 mmm, I used (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :cl-mysql) but didnt worked : ( 05:34:59 I have an array #( 1 2 3 4). How can I return the position of the value of '4' is 3th element? 05:35:15 it returns nil and the functions in the library still appear as non defined 05:35:16 <_deepfire> Ralith, you may look at LWN's dissection of this, as well: http://lwn.net/Articles/337677/ 05:35:32 <_deepfire> satiricon, it means that cl-mysql is already loaded 05:36:10 <_deepfire> satiricon, ASDF:OOS signals an error upon failure to fulfill the request 05:36:33 I see, it did not showed an error... 05:36:44 just returned nil 05:37:02 <_deepfire> Try using apropos 05:37:21 <_deepfire> (apropos 'sql) might be a good start 05:37:29 dont know that one, ill check it out 05:37:42 maus: (position 4 #(1 2 3 4)) 05:38:08 stassats: thank you! 05:38:38 <_deepfire> maus, in future, you may answer such questions yourself, by looking up the relevant chapter in CLHS 05:38:43 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:18 _deepfire: yes, I will. 05:39:47 _deepfire, it did showed a list of packages, it means that those packages are allready loaded? 05:40:41 <_deepfire> maus, in your particular case it would be http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/17_.htm 05:41:08 <_deepfire> satiricon, APROPOS lists all symbols present in the current Lisp image 05:41:57 <_deepfire> satiricon, containing a substring denoted by a provided string designator, that is 05:42:38 thank you, _deepfire! 05:42:45 aaahh, I see, I used (apropos 'cl-mysql) and it returned a list of packages that should be in that particular library 05:43:18 so, I must believe that they are allready loaded..., ill make a few more tests 05:43:23 thank you 05:43:47 <_deepfire> satiricon, it is only by sheer luck that the packages defined by cl-mysql-the-library have "cl-mysql" in their names 05:44:20 ahahahaha 05:44:37 <_deepfire> You cannot depend on that, srsly. 05:44:42 man, I am really having a hard time with this packages XD 05:44:50 <_deepfire> Your best bet is reading documentation. 05:45:08 Im just tryng to hack my way up lisp 05:45:09 satiricon: you are using the package prefix when trying to call a function, right? 05:45:30 thath is the problem I cant find much documentation 05:45:41 or it is to little detailed 05:45:48 no, not really 05:46:15 Ralith, im tryng to execute (connect) that should be the function to connect to the database 05:46:17 clhs 11 05:46:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_.htm 05:46:24 satiricon: here you go 05:47:06 whoa, that is a lot of info XD 05:48:28 ok, I will read... tomorrow, is 3 am at this place of the world, thank you! 05:49:29 [stoop] [n=stoop@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:49:49 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:50:19 -!- [stoop] is now known as stoop 05:53:09 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.108.252] has joined #lisp 05:58:30 Kolyan [n=nartamon@93-80-207-196.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:58:35 nipra [n=nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 05:59:36 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joined #lisp 06:37:53 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:38:45 derrida [n=derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 06:40:03 has anyone else noticed an issue with cl-opengl where some of the cl-glut-examples (at least any of the RB-*) cause slime (emacs) to crash and the repl has to be restarted? 06:40:42 the gears example doesn't cause this to happen 06:41:09 -!- maus [n=maus@123.20.0.80] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:41:25 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:46:44 didi [n=user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 06:49:13 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:51:57 *schme* hasn't 06:52:06 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:52:14 _ace4016_ [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:52:34 -!- _ace4016_ is now 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#lisp 07:29:43 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 07:31:12 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@121.22.111.218.klj02-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:32:45 derrida: i've noticed an issue where loading shared libraries causes slime to crash 07:32:54 cl-glut would probably do that 07:33:02 run things without slime, and everything's fine 07:33:12 i haven't had a chance to track down the source of the problem, however 07:34:48 galaxywatcher_ [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-54-116.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 07:35:22 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 07:37:52 slyrus: yeah, that seems to be what's happening 07:37:53 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-148-229.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:38:18 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-27-166.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:38:56 jmbr [n=jmbr@93.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 07:40:08 elderK [n=zk@125-238-255-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:40:42 derrida: great. let me know what the fix is :) 07:40:46 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-47-94.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:40:46 -!- galaxywatcher_ is now known as galaxywatcher 07:41:06 compounding the problem, I'm running a slime from 10/31 as that's the last version that actually works with clojure 07:43:56 nowl [n=nowl@c-66-30-79-27.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:11 -!- pem is now known as pemryan 07:46:52 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.25.164] has joined #lisp 07:48:02 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.214.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:49:03 -!- jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:50:18 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:52:49 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:53:37 c|mell [n=cmell@172.18.111.218.klj04-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 07:54:51 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.182.185] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:56:12 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.214.188] has joined #lisp 07:56:57 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Success] 07:59:28 -!- Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:06:06 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@155.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 08:09:40 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:10:43 harryv [n=harry@vangberg.name] has joined #lisp 08:11:02 hey, what's one of the better lists of solutions for sicp excercises?) 08:11:12 eh look, 1h in and there's already )'s all over. 08:11:34 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 08:12:20 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-27-166.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:18:01 balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-76-255-196-121.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:25 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 08:18:51 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 08:21:25 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:22:58 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@93.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:23:47 good morning 08:23:48 nikodemus, memo from pkhuong: if you still have the code for your lock benchmark, I'd like to get my hands on it. 08:26:13 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@85.249.162.121] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:27:14 -!- harryv [n=harry@vangberg.name] has left #lisp 08:28:34 morning 08:28:58 see, that's what I get trying to fix my subclassable-structures 08:29:03 incomprehensible errors! Yay 08:29:08 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 08:29:13 fun :> 08:33:08 Dependencies of a system :FOO are the systems that the (defsystem :foo ...) form lists under :depends-on -- how are systems called that depend on :FOO? 08:33:41 It just occured me that I used the word "dependency" even for the latter case, although that's incorrect, I guess 08:36:15 dependents 08:37:03 though it's not a term that's used often; generally you'd say "packages that depend on :foo" for clarity rather than "foo's dependents" 08:38:38 Krystof: could you play the chairman in the batteries-included discussion? 08:39:03 i'm too active a participant with my own agenda to do it properly 08:40:01 yet i fear that without someone tapping the hammer and saying "very good, but out of scope for this discussion" we will end up in a swamp 08:40:35 akamaus [n=maus@94.231.112.177] has joined #lisp 08:40:53 Phoodus: It's more the name of an emacs function. Dependents, it is. Thanks 08:40:59 It's "for" 08:41:14 yep, "dependents" would be appropriate there 08:41:17 mind playing tricks on me in the morning :-) 08:41:29 as opposed to "dependence" ;) 08:45:21 YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:51:09 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:51:36 nicdev [n=nicdev@st401-115.subnet-255.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 08:51:54 nikodemus: I haven't started reading yet. Also, busy weekend. You guys keep on chatting :-) 08:52:41 Axius [n=ade@92.84.4.116] has joined #lisp 08:53:33 at some point I will try to specify my "red lines" 08:53:36 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:54:57 prxq [n=mommer@f050233249.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:55:22 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Success] 08:55:33 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:56:10 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.84.4.116] has quit [Client Quit] 08:56:44 -!- udzinari` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:57:04 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@customer-74.203.304.pdchawaii.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:57:15 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-218.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:59:44 -!- elderK [n=zk@125-238-255-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:01:09 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 09:01:26 nicklevinehome [n=chatzill@cpc1-cmbg14-2-0-cust14.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:04:17 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 09:05:56 cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has joined #lisp 09:06:20 -!- cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has left #lisp 09:08:42 -!- nowl [n=nowl@c-66-30-79-27.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:09:34 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 09:09:38 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:48 what was samium's irc nick? 09:15:11 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@172.18.111.218.klj04-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:15:20 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 09:18:58 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 09:21:39 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-218.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:26:02 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:27:08 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 09:32:25 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:33:04 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:33:33 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 09:36:41 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:39:47 Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483D0E6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:45:42 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:29 jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-12-117.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:46:40 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:49:09 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 09:50:14 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:50:29 xan [n=xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 09:53:53 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-30-117-211.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:54:32 merl15 [n=merl@80-121-42-111.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 09:55:12 c|mell [n=cmell@192.228.209.26] has joined #lisp 09:56:03 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483ED40.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:59:15 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-76-255-196-121.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 09:59:34 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:02:04 nikodemus: _deepfire 10:02:31 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:04:48 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:06:23 -!- retupmoca` [n=retupmoc@adsl-76-235-166-47.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:07:47 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:13:37 udzinari` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 10:15:02 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 10:20:21 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:20:22 chr` [n=user@76.23.213.193.static.cust.telenor.com] has joined #lisp 10:21:20 Good morning from Oslo; I wonder why I see crypt being called with FLI rather than rewritten in lisp. 10:21:33 crypt as in crypt(3) 10:21:39 Gomorron. :-) 10:21:46 Maybe because it's faster to wrap it than to rewrite it? 10:22:21 <[df]> also it's probably a good idea to use the same crypt() as the rest of the OS 10:22:26 -!- udzinari` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:22:38 bug squishing for free! 10:23:11 <[df]> different implementations support different hashing algorithms 10:23:13 tcr: thanks 10:23:23 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@vipnet213-86.mobile.carnet.hr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:26:29 df: Different hashing algorithms as in the $n$ prefixes? 10:26:58 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:27:42 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:27:59 <[df]> yes 10:28:50 Given our current context, what's the plural of prefix, by the way? 10:29:25 <[df]> dunno, prefixes sounds fine to me 10:30:50 prefices :) 10:31:46 daniel_: aroundp 10:32:04 oops, wrong daniel 10:32:22 or prefixen? Both forms seem to give the impression that the sender *wants* to add some additional message. 10:32:48 nikodemus: dherring is his irc nick 10:33:04 so not aroundp : 10:33:18 You should probably write him a mail and ask him to come if you want to chat about something 10:33:26 I can't remember the last time he came in here 10:33:52 nikodemus: You might want to consider subscribing yourself to asdf's launchpad bug tracker 10:36:50 here in malaysia my ping times are so long that i respond to everything way after it's happened, but prefixen is definitely wrong 10:38:48 According to indogermanic morphology Emacsen should probably become Emaxen :-) 10:40:41 *c|mell* just sent two patches to sbcl-devel 10:43:28 jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-30-75-166.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:43:42 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-30-117-211.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:44:54 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp083.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:46:33 any thoughts on printing profiled functions' GC time? http://marc.info/?l=sbcl-devel&m=126121936220575&w=1 10:46:44 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:51:11 <_deepfire> nikodemus, I'm here 10:54:34 _deepfire: i was looking for info on desire, but i found it already 10:54:37 c|mell: I like it. It should perhaps depend on a &key parameter 10:55:58 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-218.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:56:55 <_deepfire> Okay, 180 modules was a slight overestimate caused by an unfortunate duplication, the actual count of desirable modules is 169 ATM. 10:57:52 <_deepfire> Unfortunately, this only covers fetchability through git, as about 30% of them fail to load. 10:58:56 ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-24-192.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 10:59:21 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 11:00:17 tcr: done 11:00:19 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-218.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:00:29 tcr: do you have the managerial rights there? 11:01:12 can you make an "ASDF hackers" group, and add people in the common-lisp.net asdf group into that? 11:01:17 No, but launchpad is very libral on what users can do 11:01:36 i can confirm things i see, but i can't toggle importance 11:01:39 I'm not sure who set it up, iirc it may have been fe[nl]ix 11:01:45 Yeah I noticed that 11:03:45 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 11:04:30 <_deepfire> nikodemus, do you have any quick comments about the overview document itself? Was anything obviously missing? 11:04:51 _deepfire: a small but complete example 11:05:03 it is all very abstract, which makes it hard to understand 11:05:10 udzinari` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 11:05:50 <_deepfire> nikodemus, ok, making it a priority item 11:06:06 i didn't even try to understand all of it, just read enough to get the feeling that it is intended for things in larger scope than our batteries included (as it is in my mind, at least) 11:06:54 fe[nl]ix: that was quick! thanks 11:07:12 tcr, i would be fine with adding a few keyword parameters but it would make the patch more intrusive 11:08:02 -!- nicdev [n=nicdev@st401-115.subnet-255.amherst.edu] has quit [] 11:08:25 nicdev [n=nicdev@st401-115.subnet-255.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 11:09:26 redblue [i=star@ppp018.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 11:11:40 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 11:18:21 morphling [n=stefan@HSI-KBW-078-042-117-144.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 11:19:12 nikodemus: you're lucky that I just woke up :) 11:23:01 hiho 11:24:42 -!- xan [n=xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 11:25:06 cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has joined #lisp 11:25:22 -!- udzinari` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:25:27 -!- cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:26:18 cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has joined #lisp 11:26:42 -!- cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has left #lisp 11:27:11 xan [n=xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 11:27:49 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 11:28:04 cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has joined #lisp 11:28:28 -!- cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has left #lisp 11:29:51 -!- morphling [n=stefan@HSI-KBW-078-042-117-144.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:30:24 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 11:31:16 cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has joined #lisp 11:31:40 -!- cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has left #lisp 11:32:22 GETF: the property list #1=((LET (#) (WHEN ID #))) has an odd length 11:32:26 what could it mean? 11:32:27 hjk [n=pkt@081-003-214-196.yesss.at] has joined #lisp 11:35:14 milanj [n=milan@109.93.129.209] has joined #lisp 11:35:24 You're passing a list with odd length to GETF which expects a plist 11:35:45 and plists are of the form (symbol1 value1 symbol2 value2 ...) and hence always of even length 11:36:09 wakeup^, post your code on http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp -- and to find out why getf is being called check the stack (maybe a macro?) 11:36:25 a macro indeed 11:37:42 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:40:01 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:40:11 djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 11:40:22 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 11:40:57 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.214.188] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:41:10 wakeup pasted "with-threads" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92350 11:41:27 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.214.188] has joined #lisp 11:42:00 thats the mess :> 11:42:11 ASDF plans seems to first consist of op+source-files, and then comes op+system 11:42:13 you have an interesting new meaning for "thread" there... 11:42:21 Why that order? 11:42:50 you have &key reverse after &body . . . 11:42:53 nikodemus: I am bad with finding right terms sometimes ;) 11:43:12 if you can call DIRECTORY on it, it is a pathname... 11:43:49 -!- chr` [n=user@76.23.213.193.static.cust.telenor.com] has left #lisp 11:44:40 ((pathname &key reverse) &body body) ; is how i would write the lambda-list 11:44:42 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:17 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-30-75-166.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:47:28 -!- jthing [n=jthing@88.159.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:49:52 cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has joined #lisp 11:50:16 -!- cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has left #lisp 11:52:14 thx 11:53:48 jmbr__ [n=jmbr@122.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 11:54:44 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@155.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:55:24 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@192.228.209.26] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:56:41 How does common-lisp-controller work? In particular how does fasls end up in /var/cache/common-lisp-controller/ ? 11:56:56 elderK [n=zk@125-238-255-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:56:59 Hey people! 11:57:17 :) I was wondering, when it came to Windows, what implementations of lisp are the most worthwhile? 11:57:39 It'd be neat if I could use the same implementation on the various nixen as I would on Windows, so, I've been taking a look at CLISP and SBCL. 11:57:43 What say you, oh, hallowed Lispers? :) 11:58:25 Clisp, yeah, unless you want to use slime 11:58:36 in that case, I'd suggest clozure cl 11:58:38 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:58:53 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:58:58 unless you're a windows hacker, in that case I suggest to collect karma and work on sbcl-on-windows 11:59:24 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:00:02 I mostly use Scheme - but, lately I've been reading Successful Lisp for some fun. 12:00:10 And, CL is becoming more and more interesting to me, just from that alone. 12:00:29 "work on SBCL-on-Windows", you mean, help out with SBCL's development or simply do my own work, using SBCL? 12:00:31 jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 12:00:49 Also, I heard many people say that really, in order to use a CL implementation properly, I'm going to need Emacs and SLIME, is that true? 12:00:53 the former 12:01:18 Or, could you use CL perfectly fine without SLIME? 12:01:19 :) 12:01:26 You need a good development environment (just like for any other language) 12:01:38 there are alternatives to Slime 12:01:49 Well, aye. When I work in C, I'm happy with make, bash, gcc and vim :) 12:02:00 Slime is most prominent in the open source CL community 12:02:07 Pity you 12:02:15 Oh, why pity me? :) 12:02:38 Well give Slime a serious chance for a few months and you'll figure it out 12:03:08 have you seen Limp? 12:03:21 Yes, tic's the author 12:03:34 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:37 there's a better alternative for Vim though 12:04:12 herbieB's one with a weird name I cannot keep in memory (nekthuth or something) 12:06:43 o_O weird indeed. 12:06:48 Hopefully I'll catch him here sometime :) 12:07:36 hmm... does anyone have a PDF manipulation library? Not pdf *generation*, but *manipulation* 12:08:24 I wanted one in past, too. I used some gui tool which supported what I wanted to do 12:08:31 instead that is 12:08:46 p_l: what do you need to do to the pdf? 12:09:00 nicklevinehome: put errors into text inside PDF 12:09:11 errors? 12:09:14 -!- konr [n=user@201.82.136.87] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:09:18 *froydnj* sees that he and nikodemus are roughly on the same page wrt batteries-included 12:09:21 according to a scheme, so I can track leaked documents 12:09:31 hmm, 12:09:56 ok, so there'd the pdftk (free use) which you can use to insert watermarks 12:10:53 otoh maybe someone else with some similar tool could take the watermark out again 12:10:57 HG` [n=HG@xdslfa135.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:11:03 mikezor [n=mikael@c-5de570d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 12:11:27 didn't cl-pdf do parsing too, i do i misrember? 12:11:44 don't think it does 12:11:58 (could be wrong) 12:12:14 -!- mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-5de570d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:12:47 it does 12:12:59 *Xach* has used it profitably for that purpose 12:13:20 I think I'll modify cmaps 12:13:35 (the character -> font mappings) 12:13:56 c|mell [n=cmell@192.228.209.26] has joined #lisp 12:13:57 wow, i didn't remember instrumentation based profiling had *this* much overhead 12:14:03 so you can use cl-pdf on an arbitrary document and get some sort of structure back? 12:14:15 cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has joined #lisp 12:14:26 it only supports very old versions 12:14:46 -!- cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has left #lisp 12:15:01 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 12:15:08 http://www.fractalconcept.com:8000/public/open-source/cl-pdf/cl-pdf-parser.asd 12:15:49 -!- nicdev [n=nicdev@st401-115.subnet-255.amherst.edu] has quit [] 12:17:57 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslfa135.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:17:58 unfortunately, showing the gc time in profiles only demonstrates that something else that is weird is going on 12:18:01 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:18:46 for some reason on the same workload there is a function that either shows up high on the profile or right at the bottom :( 12:19:25 exports: with-existing-document, with-existing-page, insert-original-page-content 12:19:33 hmm... interesting - fractalconcept.com doesn't work for me unless I go through proxy somewhere 12:19:45 so doesn't do much, doesn't return a structure 12:20:10 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.214.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:21:52 *elderK* wanders the hyperspec 12:22:00 *elderK* sipping coffee as he meanders 12:22:22 *Adlai* gives elderK a locative to http://l1sp.org/ 12:22:30 -!- hjk [n=pkt@081-003-214-196.yesss.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:22:40 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.132] has joined #lisp 12:23:18 Thanks Adlai :) 12:23:25 Adlai: Any chance you have any insights onto Vim with CL? 12:23:35 Or, at least hte possibility of using CL without something like SLIME? 12:23:35 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:24:02 elderK, there are vim emulation modes for 12:24:02 Scheme is easily used without SLIME, even though many pretty much say you can't or shouldn't use it without SLIME. 12:24:04 Emacs 12:24:10 Aye, Viper. 12:24:22 I'm not saying I won't even give Emacs a shot, I'll definitely try Emacs. 12:24:29 But, I'm still wondering about vim, of course. 12:24:47 :) If I can continue to use the editor that I'm familiar with, then, that's cool. If not, then I'll learn what I have to use :) 12:25:33 There are many people who used to use vim, but then switched to emacs because of slime 12:25:36 you can still -use- vim, but compared to SLIME, it'd be like using The Standard Text Editor. 12:25:46 At least for programming CL 12:26:02 yeah 12:26:12 I use vim for resolving trivial merge conflicts, but that's it. 12:26:50 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 12:26:51 hesitate to mention this, but there's also the "free" versions of ACL and LW, both with full development GUIs. Depending on what you're doing one of these might be sufficient for your purposes 12:27:08 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 12:27:18 elderK: as sad as it is there is pretty much only SLIME for you if you want a decent environment for lisping. vim doesn't even come close. 12:27:34 nicklevine: Don't hesitate, it's something regularly recommended here too 12:27:40 thx 12:27:52 elderK: It's the one big thing that is terribly offputting with lisp :) 12:27:59 *p_l* got LW working, but it doesn't compare (IMHO) to SLIME 12:28:54 -!- xan [n=xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 12:29:10 Well, it all depends in my view, you see. I mean, therea re people who code in C++ and stuff and swear by XCode or MSVC - where as, I've always been happy with gmake, bash and the standard unix toolchain. 12:29:27 Sure, they offer name completion and stuff, but that always annoyed me more than not. 12:29:48 elderK: That's not really a good comparision when it comes to lisp. :) 12:29:52 :) so, if that's all I'd miss out from SLIME, I don't much care. What worries me more, is not being able to debug code and the like. 12:30:17 schme: I guess I really need to find out what I am missing out on then :) 12:30:20 elderK: with *not* using SLIME you miss out on a very nice integrated and interactive environment. 12:30:21 *elderK* downloads some videos of SLIME in action 12:30:25 would have said: slime doesn't compare to lw 12:30:38 guess habit has a lot to do with it 12:30:39 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:30:42 :-) 12:30:56 Aye, it all comes down to what we as individuals, are used to when it comes to development. 12:31:10 elderK, I'd say that SLIME is a combination of several powerful tools. -one- of them is an Emacs mode providing tab completion, indentation, etc, but two others are the debugger and the interactive inspector. 12:31:40 Take Scheme, for example. I setup some scripts to pipe sexps to my interpreter of choice from vim, had the interpreter running under Vim, in GNU Screen, watching what happened - jumping to it when I needed ot tinker with the REPL directly. 12:31:59 See, that sounds cool. Any chance you'd mind telling me about this inspector? 12:32:36 http://lisp-book.org/contents/ch18.html#id2565010 12:32:46 (shameless plug) 12:33:14 heh? 12:33:17 nicklevine: What I missed terribly from LW is a way to interactively macroexpand, is that possible? I only used it shortly to port named-readtables to LW. 12:33:33 yes, it certainly is 12:33:52 See, these introspection abilities from within slime, surely they are just as usable from the CLI? 12:33:54 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.132] has joined #lisp 12:33:58 elderK: What I'd really miss in your setup there is to hit some key and get located to where some specific thing is defined in the source :) 12:34:03 elderK: No 12:34:28 schme: aye, like, jumping to where a function was defined or suchlike? 12:34:40 or where it's called 12:34:42 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:34:44 ctags provides that for C and the like, and apparently works quite well with CL, although I'm yet to try it. 12:34:51 elderK: Yes, and yeah callers. 12:35:18 elderK: I'd love to see a vim based environment that came close to being as nice as SLIME, but sadly no :( 12:35:27 nicklevinehome: Have you tried macroexpanding in Slime? 12:35:37 aye :( 12:35:40 elderK, in the CLI, you could invoke a function once you got dumped into the debugger, and you'd get a filename and character position of the error. In SLDB, you move the cursor to a stack frame, hit `t' to see the local variables, and hit `v' to jump to source. 12:35:46 hmm, don't remember, probably yes 12:35:49 nicklevinehome: You can expand within the *Slime Macroexpansion* again, and go back via C-_ 12:36:39 also, "the CLI" varies between implementations. part of SLIME is a portability layer between them, so you have the same debugger interface on all the lisps you use. 12:36:49 -!- Xantoz [n=hejhej@c-8cb7e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:36:50 Adlai, sounds like IDEs for C, they make debugging far easier than say, calling gdb by hand and stepping through all the stuff yourself. 12:36:54 It strikes me a bit like using vim for hacking up smalltalk code instead of dolphin or some such :) 12:37:06 like, being able to pinpoint the precise line, while watching the contents of varialbes change somewhere else, and the like 12:37:30 aye. 12:37:39 like coding with a hand tied behind your back. 12:37:49 Starting to wonder if I've hurt myself not using C IDEs too, now. 12:37:52 *elderK* shrugs 12:38:19 For C I'm not so convinced the IDEs bring that much of a more pleasurable experience :) 12:38:28 Why? 12:38:42 At least, in my experience, I was always more efficient working with the CLI and suchlike than with IDEs. 12:38:53 i want interactive C implementation, like, i suppose, was Zeta-C 12:38:55 I guess it's just whatever works, hey. 12:39:44 elderK: I'll go with that. For C and some other languages I prefer just firing up vim and hitting my Makefile with the ol' make. (: 12:40:08 same. 12:40:10 But I guess it very much depends on what one is actually doing :) 12:40:57 Well, at least in the experience I had with IDEs for C, which kind of made me hate them, was that they complicated everything. They hid all the control behind zillions of dialogs... 12:41:02 For C++ I could fancy a nice class browser etc. 12:41:02 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:41:04 and generated allk inds of annoying files to help the IDE track stuff 12:41:21 It just bugged me, when I could access all the stuff I needed, quickly, by hand in the CLI - and write all the makefiles and such by hand, too. 12:41:27 and cleaner than whatever the IDE generated. 12:41:28 <_deepfire> I wish CL had continuations /and/ exceptions w/ restarts. 12:41:41 lo, _deepfire. Schemer? : 12:41:43 :P 12:41:44 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 12:41:49 elderK: SLIME does not really hide stuff and pop up dialogues very much. 12:41:54 <_deepfire> So you could C-c stuff, choose a "save a continuation" restart, and then resume it later. 12:42:06 <_deepfire> elderK, no.. 12:42:20 xan [n=xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 12:42:31 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-139-178.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:43:20 _deepfire: C-c C-c is done in a separate thread, so you can just leave the debugger open and invoke some appropriate restart later 12:44:32 _deepfire: Well that is modulo sbcl's global compiler lock :-) 12:45:09 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-36-192.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:45:39 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.214.188] has joined #lisp 12:46:18 every Python needs a global lock somewhere :\ 12:47:19 <_deepfire> Sweet, I'm down to just four errors in the second-to-last slave-side dependency unwind phase. 12:48:30 tcr: I checked out netkthuth? 12:48:48 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:48:48 nekthuth, thats it. 12:48:57 C can get nice IDE with clang... instead of line with error, it can guide you directly to the expression (because clang can return structural information like what SLIME could get from code) 12:48:57 Wonder if he got the name from Lovecraft. 12:49:37 <_deepfire> Of course there is another problem with that, because I'm fetching whole world first, and do dep. unwind as a separate stage -- this is not how things happen in the real world. I'll need to devise a hiding mechanism, so that individual module dependency unwinds proceed in an "empty" environment. 12:51:22 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-27-143-54.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:51:26 <_deepfire> Currently, for example, CXML dependency unwind succeeds simply because its dependency is physically present. But it'll fail in real world because I don't use ASDF:FIND-SYSTEM to infer system's dependencies. 12:51:58 <_deepfire> I totally gave up on ASDF:FIND-SYSTEM. 12:52:03 <_deepfire> I don't use it anywhere. 12:52:15 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 12:53:48 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.108.252] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:54:21 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.108.252] has joined #lisp 12:56:01 heh, for fun I might write a little prog1/prog2 macro for Scheme 12:56:01 :D 12:56:03 Could be a laugh 12:56:42 wouldn't it be trivial? 12:57:05 Yeah, totally. 12:57:09 But that doesn't stop it being somewhat fun :) 12:57:25 and hey, it's all practice with syntax-rules or whatever macro system I decide to use. 12:57:58 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 12:57:59 instead of talking about it on irc you could already have written it, methinks :P (well, aside from choosing the macro-system...) 12:58:16 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:58:52 Distracted reading the hyperspec. 12:58:53 :) 12:59:15 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 13:03:12 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.108.252] has left #lisp 13:06:56 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.108.252] has joined #lisp 13:07:28 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-24-192.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:09:12 -!- ShadowChild [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Client Quit] 13:09:20 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 13:09:59 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 13:11:08 Is there a way in ASDF to establish context for all the performs during the extent of an operation? 13:11:53 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.214.188] has quit [Success] 13:12:49 <_deepfire> tcr, subclass the operation? 13:13:13 btw guys, out of curiosity, how much should I worry about dynamic binding? 13:13:19 I've read in many places that it's really, really bad? 13:13:44 to me, it seems like it could be useful in certain circumstances, and (again, from what I've read around the net), CL leaves what to use and when to use it, up to you? 13:14:18 you're reading really, really bad places 13:14:44 _deepfire: and then change-class in perform of the original operation? 13:15:28 thanks stassats`. So, dynamic scoping /isn't/ evil? 13:15:29 <_deepfire> tcr, this second question stretches my understanding of ASDF innards :-) 13:15:35 just requires some actual care for your code? :) 13:15:44 <_deepfire> elderK, it's a useful tool, yes. 13:16:10 even eval isn't evil when used properly 13:16:23 <_deepfire> elderK, think of it as implicit function arguments. 13:16:34 elderK: as long as it isn't the default like in elisp 13:16:59 <_deepfire> elderK, see, for example, the multitude of *read-foo*/*print-foo* variables defined by CL 13:17:24 couple it with a well established naming convention (enforcement optional) like in cl *stars-at-ends* and it is all good 13:17:38 I'm reading this, too? http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/dec_special.html 13:18:08 minion: tell elderK about pcl-book 13:18:09 elderK: direct your attention towards pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 13:18:24 nikodemus: Have you read "Successful Lisp" ? 13:18:39 I thought it might be a smart idea to read through that, get a little balance on CL, before PCL. 13:18:52 Xantoz [n=hejhej@c-8cb7e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:18:58 Right now, I guess I'm just trying to gather some intelligence from the 'net, as well as the book. 13:19:04 no, i didn't hear about it until it was too late 13:19:15 Bad idea, too, from that stassats` has told me about my dynamic scoping question :) 13:19:24 pcl is _excellent_ 13:19:38 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-49-51.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:19:39 elderK: From my (unexperienced) pov, special variables (dynamic) are great when you want to establish a context for operation, so all kinds of (with-something thing (do-something)) are great simplification 13:19:50 afaik sl is easier if you don't know much about programming in general 13:20:25 if pcl's pace isn't too fast for you i don't think there is any particular reason you shoud read SL first 13:20:32 pcl is good book for someone who already used some languages, especially for a convert from Java/C#/Ruby etc. 13:20:56 ...but like i said, i haven't read SL, only browsed it and went "looks nice, nothing here for me" 13:21:02 nikodemus: sorry just joined, what is SL? 13:21:11 Successful Lisp. 13:21:19 minion: tell Guthur about successful lisp 13:21:20 Guthur: i like lisp... i'm written in it 13:21:25 http://www.psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/contents.html 13:21:27 feh 13:21:30 cheers 13:21:56 hehe minion doesn't even know about it, i feel better 13:22:00 heh 13:22:01 :) 13:22:05 *elderK* pets minion 13:22:24 Pretty much all of my lisperience is in Scheme. 13:22:29 if that counts for anything. 13:22:29 :) 13:23:16 just go for pcl. it has the advantage of being idiomatic. some of the other books have all sorts of wierd quirks in the way the language is used 13:23:22 s/other/older/ 13:23:28 aye. 13:23:55 i think CL is like any advanced language you rarely know it all 13:24:10 true, but even then, i would still recommend you to keep CTL2 and Keene's book for later at least. 13:24:55 paip is a good read too 13:25:01 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-27-143-54.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:25:04 and amop, of course :) 13:25:34 I'm just hacking asdf.asd to oblivion which is kind of ironic 13:26:21 cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has joined #lisp 13:26:29 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 13:26:33 Well, in any case, I appreciate the feedback :) 13:26:45 -!- cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has left #lisp 13:26:48 It really seems like asdf is inadequate for anything which parts from its simple usage () 13:26:48 :) I'll be back shortly, I just have to relog - adjusting DPI. 13:26:59 i thought asdf.asd was a bit insane 13:27:05 -!- elderK [n=zk@125-238-255-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 13:27:09 -!- YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:27:22 Why? I use it 13:27:26 what for? 13:28:11 So I can put (asdf:load-system :asdf :force t) ; hot-upgrade into my .sbclrc 13:28:40 how is that better than (load "path/to/asdf.lisp")? 13:29:00 not having to maintain the path? 13:29:15 imo it is not -- it is just more liable to break when the upgrade does something unexpected 13:29:27 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-193-189.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:29:27 Huh? 13:30:04 redefines stuff current in use while 13:30:20 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-103-199.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:30:25 Yeah that's true :-) at least I know it then early 13:31:28 Bah I'll better stop now because it really becomes ironic 13:31:43 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-36-192.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:31:50 (i've deleted already several half-written replies here) 13:32:14 the thing is, i think asdf needs to be superseded -- possibly by xcvxb, possibly by something else 13:32:20 I'm somewhat enraged because I now wasted half the day 13:32:53 ASDF has the advantage of a totally pwning slime contrib :-) 13:33:18 elderK [n=zk@125-238-255-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 13:35:28 which reminds me: would it be possible to have a NEWS-style file for slime? 13:35:38 or a montly summary of changes, or something? 13:35:54 I use my blog for that 13:36:14 -!- merl15 [n=merl@80-121-42-111.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:36:16 because i have been unable to follow slime changes in any meaningful manner for a fair while now, and i know i'm not the only one 13:36:16 -!- elderK [n=zk@125-238-255-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:36:22 I having gotten around blogging about the new stuff 13:36:23 -!- Xantoz [n=hejhej@c-8cb7e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:36:33 blog is not ideal, really 13:36:56 better than nothing, but i'd really like something in the CVS 13:37:34 (given how useless a GNU-style ChangeLog is for getting an overview of changes) 13:37:57 If there's stuff for the user, I put it on top of the code-changes section 13:38:10 what, where? 13:38:36 of the ChangeLog entry 13:39:20 -!- nipra [n=nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:39:24 ah, right. i find it still pretty useless -- there's far too much noise in between 13:39:49 not to disparage you for putting the comments there -- just hating the GNU-style 13:39:52 -!- shrughes [n=shrughes@c-65-96-172-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.5/20091109125225]"] 13:39:54 I don't disagree 13:40:08 With blog posts I can reach more audience though 13:40:21 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32F0A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:27 and I'm just a subordinated hacker showing off my hacks there :-) 13:40:51 elderK [n=zk@125-238-255-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 13:41:05 hah 13:41:08 (which are going to be removed a few months later again...) 13:41:14 There we go 13:41:15 if slime collected sbcl/NEWS style entries, we could have an automated monthly-news email... 13:41:34 with automated update of the website! 13:41:41 Going to be pretty afk for awhile guys, going to get into some reading and a little hackin' :) 13:41:52 Thanks again for the help. 13:42:11 cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has joined #lisp 13:42:35 -!- cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has left #lisp 13:43:05 -!- lukjad007 is now known as lukjad007_ 13:43:29 -!- lukjad007_ is now known as lukjad007 13:43:56 -!- elderK [n=zk@125-238-255-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 13:43:59 nikodemus: Blog postings have the feature that I put screenshots on it 13:44:13 It's often hard to explain changes in words 13:44:26 elderK [n=zk@125-238-255-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 13:44:35 tcr: true, but the problem is that the information isn't to hand when i need it 13:44:58 that is, when i update slime, i would like to know what has changed since the last time 13:45:28 Which would only make sense for NEWS-style + releases 13:45:46 no, i can just look at news changes since my last udate 13:45:51 releases not required 13:46:06 -!- lukjad007 is now known as m0hi 13:47:22 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-218.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:47:47 -!- m0hi is now known as lukjad007 13:48:38 tcr: link to blog? 13:48:51 trittweiler dot blogspot dot com 13:49:54 -!- kwinz3_ [n=kwinz@85.124.207.68] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:54:25 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 13:54:32 cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has joined #lisp 13:54:56 -!- cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has left #lisp 13:59:01 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:59:09 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.132] has joined #lisp 14:02:47 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.132] has quit [Client Quit] 14:02:59 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.132] has joined #lisp 14:08:59 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483D0E6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:10:24 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9329.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 14:10:41 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-135.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:26 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:15:31 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 14:16:06 shrughes [n=shrughes@c-65-96-172-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:28 cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has joined #lisp 14:18:46 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-103-199.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:18:52 -!- cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has left #lisp 14:19:51 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-182-129.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:22:43 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 14:23:19 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-11-44-179.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 14:25:08 whee, i have hemlock.tty running! 14:25:11 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-49-51.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:26:55 eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 14:30:23 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 14:30:25 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-12-117.iburst.co.za] has quit ["leaving"] 14:32:20 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-78-176.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 14:32:50 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-78-176.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:36:07 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:36:22 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:42:55 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:44:59 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.204.40] has joined #lisp 14:45:11 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229071096.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:45:25 -!- milanj [n=milan@109.93.129.209] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:45:30 -!- milanj- is now known as milanj 14:46:03 cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has joined #lisp 14:46:27 -!- cathy_chang [n=wangchan@61.150.43.46] has left #lisp 14:48:28 fe[nl]ix: please remove me at your earliest convenience from the stuff you've signed me up for 14:48:47 and also please never do anything like that again 14:49:13 Krystof: i am probably to blame 14:49:23 Krystof: sorry 14:49:29 Xantoz [n=hejhej@c-8cb7e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:49:31 ok 14:49:42 i suggested adding people with asdf commit bit to asdf hackers on launchpad 14:50:01 oh, do I have that? That needs changing too 14:50:20 it's a more reasonable mistake to make, then 14:50:41 I will turn my fury down one notch 14:50:46 djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:54 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 14:50:59 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:52:02 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.192.103] has joined #lisp 14:53:34 -!- Xantoz [n=hejhej@c-8cb7e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:54:18 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-182-129.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:55:48 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-044-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:01 -!- elderK [n=zk@125-238-255-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:57:51 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 15:00:05 fe[nl]ix: thanks 15:01:02 -!- hicx174 [n=hicx174@123.108.171.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:02:33 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A193D.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:02:33 hicx174 [n=hicx174@123.108.171.227] has joined #lisp 15:04:24 nikodemus: wow, os x's mutexes are pathetic. 15:04:51 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 15:05:09 quite so 15:05:25 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-23-99.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:05:59 i think i at some point looked at the source, and it looked a lot like our pthread-futex stuff -- only more low level 15:07:18 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:08:29 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 15:14:53 dnolen [n=dnolen@ppp-70-242-117-241.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:10 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-244-124.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:16:07 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.108.252] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:17:01 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@115.184.21.165] has joined #lisp 15:17:28 they're 10 times slower than CLH + wait on fd for 2 threads that keep acquiring/releasing. And even if I skip the busy-waiting phase in CLH (and always poll on an fd), theirs still uses a lot more user time :| 15:19:50 hah 15:20:07 does someone here read dylan? 15:20:18 housel would. 15:21:49 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-060-117.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:00 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-060-117.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 15:23:30 i'm looking at deuce, and while it is mostly easy enough to read, i'm not sure i understand some of the macro syntax 15:23:33 abeaumont_ [n=Alfredo@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 15:23:42 -!- abeaumont_ [n=Alfredo@84.76.48.250] has quit [Client Quit] 15:25:42 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:46 *nikodemus* figures it out 15:26:04 what a silly pattern-matchy thing 15:30:28 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9329.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:31:44 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 15:32:42 -!- djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:33:42 -!- addled_ [n=adl@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:35:50 silly? 15:36:01 I liked the Dexpr paper 15:36:18 KatchaFire [n=KatchaFi@bas33-4-88-180-245-209.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:22 nikodemus: for CLH without hammering the CPUs :) 15:37:17 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-53-106.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:37:37 nikodemus pasted "compare and contrast" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92354 15:37:45 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 15:38:16 declaim freeze-type ?? 15:38:27 forbids subclassing 15:38:37 pkhuong: where does that come from ? 15:38:44 sbcl-only, and not fully functional in sbcl either 15:39:13 philos_ [n=philos@222.112.72.73] has joined #lisp 15:39:39 when was it introduced ? 15:39:49 it's been there since the fork from cmucl 15:40:20 :d 15:40:37 these days we would name it something different, i think :) 15:40:57 nikodemus: I think the first match misses the window variable 15:41:19 -!- philos_ [n=philos@222.112.72.73] has quit [Client Quit] 15:41:52 hm no :-) 15:42:19 the second misses the buffer 15:42:35 and in the first you have to put = between the window and the buffer 15:42:42 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 15:42:50 yeah I didn't realize that the &optional is for naming a binding 15:43:15 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-11-44-179.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:43:18 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.80.97] has joined #lisp 15:43:26 You can abstract out common bits in dylan 15:43:31 much nicer than no macros at all, sure, but... still silly 15:43:37 but that's where when it gets messy :-) 15:43:46 Huh? 15:43:56 What do you take gripes with? 15:43:57 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-32-164.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:44:12 i'm not griping, i'm pointing and laughing :) 15:44:38 to give up a perfectly good sexp-syntax for this... the mind boggles :) 15:44:39 elderK [n=zk@125-238-255-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 15:44:46 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:57 Successful Lisp so far, seems to be a reasonably good introductory text for CL. 15:45:00 For accurate source-information, sure I can relate to that 15:45:17 If you're an eager reader too, it kind of forces you to go to the hyperspec, which is good, imo. 15:45:23 Hey again, tcr :) 15:45:40 for extra giggles: deuce seems to reimplement half the sequences chapter of clhs :P 15:45:59 deuce? 15:46:22 dylan editor 15:46:33 btw guys, would you recommend becoming familiar with SWIG? Or, rather just create small bindings by hand as I need? 15:46:42 Ah :) 15:46:56 For fun I implemented a few CL things like prog1, prog2 and such as scheme macros :D 15:46:57 elderK: I do it by hand. 15:47:03 That had a little gotcha in there, it was kind of fun. 15:47:17 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-117-99.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 15:47:17 small bindings by hand, large ones with a tool 15:47:33 pkhuong: so, you incrementaly build your binding by hand, adding what's needed when it's needed? 15:48:07 Something like SDL seems doable by hand, depending. 15:48:14 of course, SWIG would make life WAY easier... 15:48:16 elderK: http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/The-Groveller.html 15:48:17 elderK: right. But I like it when others produce full bindings, which usually entails using a tool. 15:48:32 like asdf? 15:49:03 cheers lichtblau. 15:51:47 philos [n=philos@222.112.72.73] has joined #lisp 15:52:06 lichtblau / pkhuong: would you mind sending me your slides? 15:52:50 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:53:03 Xantoz [n=hejhej@c-8cb7e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:53:55 sent 15:53:56 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.25.164] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:54:17 pkhuong: since you're working on that stuff, do you have/want my fair spinlocks code? 15:55:10 nikodemus: please. 15:55:33 Of course, I really shouldn't be even thinking about this (: 15:56:33 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:24 http://random-state.net/tmp/0001-fair-spinlocks.patch # against 1.0.19.25 15:59:12 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:59:16 -!- philos [n=philos@222.112.72.73] has left #lisp 15:59:24 Oddity [n=Oddity@99.199.136.138] has joined #lisp 16:01:25 Axius [n=ade@92.82.69.20] has joined #lisp 16:01:31 davazp [n=user@35.Red-79-157-95.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:59 can generic function be specialized on a string? 16:03:08 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-19-198.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:25 if you're careful and don't mind implementation dependant behaviour, yes 16:05:12 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.82.69.20] has quit [Client Quit] 16:05:36 oh a string or on all strings? 16:06:53 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:54 on all strings, I'm looking at swank-backend:emacs-inspect. I'm unhappy with how slime displays strings in the inspector 16:09:29 -!- Xantoz [n=hejhej@c-8cb7e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:10:13 then yes, the string class is available 16:11:26 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.173.219] has joined #lisp 16:11:30 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-19-198.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:13:59 -!- jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:14:15 jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 16:14:16 YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:14:29 (ignore what i said, i misunderstood the question -- i thought you wanted to specialized on different types of strings) 16:15:49 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:18:04 -!- jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:18:19 jasber 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[n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:25:29 -!- ska`` [n=user@124.157.196.104] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:27:42 HaskellLove [n=chatzill@92.55.82.197] has joined #lisp 17:27:48 "A Lisp programmer knows the value of everything, but the cost of nothing." Can someone translate this quote? 17:28:21 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:40 Into Haskell? 17:28:59 #poetry ? 17:29:15 (and (every #'value thing) (not (some #'cost thing))) 17:29:20 no it is from a book from John Mitchell 17:29:35 Concepts in Programming Languages 17:30:13 What do you want it translated into? You mean you want someone to explain the quote to you? 17:30:17 my trolly senses are tingling 17:30:44 HaskellLove: It's an old Alan Perlis quote 17:31:01 HaskellLove: In Lisp (like in Haskell) everything is an expression, i.e. has value 17:31:44 g'morning 17:31:46 HaskellLove: But it's so highlevel that you do not really know the cost of each operation 17:31:57 It's probably more applicable to Haskell than to Lisp 17:32:11 -!- HaskellLove [n=chatzill@92.55.82.197] has left #lisp 17:32:20 HaskellLove: it came from *old* times when Lisp was rather costly language to support (in terms of resources on machine). IIRC it kinda stopped being true by the time of later PDP-10 Maclisp 17:32:25 HaskellLove [n=chatzill@92.55.82.197] has joined #lisp 17:32:35 (at least that's how I understood it) 17:32:43 what library should i install on ubuntu, to have lisp? 17:32:54 -!- kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:33:09 HaskellLove: grab SBCL, then follow http://unya.wordpress.com/2009/06/07/linux-common-lisp-quickstart/ 17:33:32 I'm working on preparing few nice "quickstart" howtos to go with my work for beach later 17:33:34 HaskellLove: download the sbcl tarball from sbcl.org, and yeah what p_l said. 17:33:57 is this first time that someone started hacking lisp from this quote ? 17:34:12 interesting 17:34:21 milanj: I wouldn't have great hopes in such case... 17:35:22 me neither 17:35:23 -!- HaskellLove [n=chatzill@92.55.82.197] has left #lisp 17:36:03 Guess he wasn't super interested in trying it maybe? 17:36:16 *p_l* still wonders for what exactly HaskellLove got banned from #haskell 17:37:00 p_l: Maybe ask #haskell? (: 17:37:01 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:37:19 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-117-99.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:37:45 schme: been there, I just decided that I don't have time to loose trying to get details 17:38:20 Maybe the proper thing to do is ban #haskell. 17:38:28 asking haskell crowd to explain quotes about haskell ? 17:39:01 milanj: Nope, but he was accused of changing nick to avoid kickbans 17:39:35 -!- kejsaren3 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:39:51 you can not ban Love ? 17:40:08 p_l: Well then we have that sorted. 17:40:26 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:40:37 -!- TuxPurple_ [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:41:12 HaskellLove [n=chatzill@92.55.82.197] has joined #lisp 17:41:30 McCarthy described Lisp as a "scheme for representing the partial recursive functions of a certain class of symbolic expressions." What does that mean? 17:41:35 udzinari` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:42:42 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:42:45 what. 17:43:05 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:43:07 HaskellLove: it means the guy was stoned out of his head. 17:43:38 aahahahahahahahah XDDDDD 17:43:48 hahahahahaha 17:45:06 i guess you guys are more pragmatists and dont give a shit of statements like those 17:45:53 I sure don't give a shit about statements like that. 17:46:38 that is good, i used to like try to understand what all these shity stuf means, and you realize that then times were different and what they considered hard it is stupid obvious now... 17:46:44 HaskellLove: Common Lispers tend to be pragmatists 17:46:45 well, you could look up the definitions of the key words in that statement ("partial recursive function", "symbolic expression") and check out if it matches reality (: 17:46:50 Academics usually flock to scheme 17:47:23 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-zzuchhvhjwgwegpd] has quit [] 17:47:31 (here's a first stab at a helpful answer. you're welcome. my usual consultancy rates apply) 17:48:26 HaskellLove: if you want a good start into *programming* in common lisp, PCL is a book to go to. Then, when you are comfortable with language enough, you can start getting into the "crazier" stuff (MOP is wonderful :3) 17:48:45 PCL? 17:49:09 Practical Common Lisp 17:49:15 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-82-106.w90-25.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:49:15 here's a good quote. 17:49:15 minion: tell HaskellLove about pcl 17:49:17 HaskellLove: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 17:49:22 "The only way to learn a new programming language is by writing programs in it." 17:49:26 minion: tell HaskellLove about gentle 17:49:27 HaskellLove: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 17:49:31 just in case ;) 17:49:38 "The only way to learn a new programming language is by writing programs in it." - K&R 17:50:05 schme: reading code is more important than writing in, IMO. 17:50:15 "I suppose I should learn Lisp, but it seems so foreign." - PG 17:50:24 Gentle is more a start from basics, PCL is kind of for people who already know some "mainstream" language 17:50:25 drewc: I like a good combination of both (: 17:50:36 drewc: (as long as I don't have to read my OWN code :D) 17:50:47 schme: well, it's hard to program without writing some code, innit :) 17:50:53 drewc: K&R were big on reading code as well - it's just that they suggested practice 17:50:56 pffft! 17:51:06 drewc: I leave the code writing to mah macros. 17:51:15 schme: fair enough :) 17:51:47 slyrus [n=slyrus@customer-74.203.304.pdchawaii.com] has joined #lisp 17:52:18 HaskellLove: I have a quote about haskell. "haskell is fucking annoying and I can't stand the syntax" - schme ;) 17:53:07 reading some code sounds relaxing enough actually. Any recommendations? 17:53:28 Haskellwienies can be pretty annoying when they're evangelizing. 17:53:39 schme haskell ain't for bitches so don't worry don't go into it :) 17:53:45 unlike born again lispers. 17:53:46 schme: if you haven't read contextL yet, i highly recommend it for an example of how to do MOP correctly. 17:53:52 HaskellLove: hahahaha :) 17:54:00 drewc: cools. I'll look at that. :) 17:54:17 schme: rucksack is also a good read if you're into databases at all. 17:54:32 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:34 haskell is for computer scientists only so... don;t go there boy you are just a programmer i guess 17:54:47 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:49 :-0 17:54:58 HaskellLove: I'd disagree. They seem to have produced a mighty fine window manager. 17:55:12 -!- HaskellLove [n=chatzill@92.55.82.197] has left #lisp 17:55:18 and a semi-broken version control system! 17:55:27 please, don't feed the trolls... 17:55:41 But where would we be without haskell? we would have no clbuild. 17:55:52 and then I could not grab contextl just like that. 17:55:55 heh, I like haskell. I don't yet get it enough, but I plan on using it for few smaller projects. Got a friend of mine who uses it for practical and degree work all the time and he is rather happy with it (and evangelizes in sensible way :P) 17:55:57 we would have clbuild using git :) 17:56:04 minion: cl-darcs? 17:56:06 cl-darcs: cl-darcs is a client for the darcs version control system written in Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/cl-darcs 17:56:10 ahem! 17:56:19 oh 17:56:37 p_l: haskell is mighty fine. It just doesn't work for schme. 17:58:46 schme: and now that's a response I like :D 17:59:25 schme: haskell is an interesting read as well : http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/code/syntax/haskell/ 17:59:36 kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:39 heh 17:59:51 kejsaren3 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:04 p_l: I thought that was what I said when I said "haskell is fucking annoying" :) 18:00:17 drewc: Now I have too much code to read. again :) 18:01:12 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@115.184.44.172] has left #lisp 18:01:47 schme: that could be misunderstood. I liked the second version because it wasn't ambigous 18:02:30 p_l: I slowly grow aware over how easy IRC misunderstands. (: 18:04:36 schme: add to that the amount of non-native speakers :D 18:05:10 Anyone who the new autodoc is too slow for? 18:05:38 Or who experienced the slowdown 18:07:00 jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 18:07:04 this content oriented programming I have not heard of before. looks intriguing :) 18:09:24 -!- kejsaren4 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:09:32 nikodemus: is it possible that the audio file you gave me has martin and nick talking on top of each other? 18:09:47 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:10:04 Krystof: that would be a pretty spectacular screwup on my part 18:10:12 nevertheless it would explain what I'm hearing 18:10:30 i have some other files as well, i'll check if there is a sane one in the mix 18:11:16 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:11:21 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:11:49 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:11:55 -!- fawxtin` [n=user@150.162.165.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:12:13 i have what looks like raw data files with timestamps covering both talks, so we can probably recover if worst comes to worst... 18:12:38 aha, yea 18:12:54 i have two tracks, and apparently i exported them on top of each other 18:13:03 -!- merl15 [n=merl@80-121-69-74.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:13:15 the wonders of making the window big enough to actually see something... 18:13:31 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.124.207.62] has joined #lisp 18:13:46 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:15:21 freiksenet [n=freiksen@85.249.162.121] has joined #lisp 18:15:23 hm, i select "export selected". and now it's saying "exporting entire project" 18:16:42 today's spectactular waste of time: while looking for the .ogg file from nikodemus, discovering the remnants of an intrusion on a server 18:17:20 hilariously, I believe the intruder failed to increase privileges because there's no C compiler installed 18:17:26 if I am extra grumpy this evening, that's why 18:17:48 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.44.194] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:19:09 -!- jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:19:33 tcr: i can't test autodoc right now, since updating slime broke M-x slime for me... 18:19:39 jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 18:19:41 "No match" 18:20:03 ok, i have one track re-exported... 18:20:04 you have to update with up -dP 18:20:28 jmbr___ [n=jmbr@92.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:20:30 i always do 18:20:49 Ok I mistook the "no match" to be directed at me 18:21:04 Paste me the failure if you have time 18:21:48 Krystof: haha 18:21:50 grr. still both tracks exported on top of each other 18:23:37 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.204.40] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:24:01 nikodemus: what is your raw data? I'm happy to do the audio chopping 18:24:11 phf [n=phf@c-76-124-103-85.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:28 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:25:46 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:27:47 whatever audacity saved 18:28:13 i think i figured out how to do a single track export now, but i can also bundle everything end send it your way 18:29:21 \o/ i got it 18:29:58 brutus [n=brutus@triband-mum-120.62.2.102.mtnl.net.in] has joined #lisp 18:32:32 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-184-128.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 18:33:05 Krystof: or maybe the intruder covered its tracks and only wants you to believe the breakin failed 18:35:22 antifuchs: such Xanatos' gambits don't work well in security 18:35:45 redblue [i=star@ppp039.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:36:24 antifuchs: possible, of course 18:36:43 -!- jmbr__ [n=jmbr@122.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:36:55 I would suspect that a better plan would be to delete the C source code and perl irc client that the breakin left in /tmp 18:37:00 Krystof: random-state.net/tmp/sbcl-10-talk-1.ogg, second one up in a few minutes 18:37:02 then I wouldn't notice anything at all 18:37:05 heh 18:37:11 true (: 18:38:33 myDream [n=firojj@87.246.26.46] has joined #lisp 18:38:33 -!- YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:39:20 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:15 -!- myDream [n=firojj@87.246.26.46] has quit [Client Quit] 18:41:18 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-82-106.w90-25.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 18:41:45 hi there, someone knows what this error could be and how to fix it? [c-string decoding error (:external-format :UTF-8)] 18:42:06 obviously is an error related to the charset 18:42:47 you have asked for conversion from a foreign vector of bytes to a lisp string with utf-8 encoding 18:43:03 but the foreign vector of bytes does not contain a valid utf8 sequence 18:43:12 it has nothing to do with the charset 18:43:14 only the encoding 18:43:15 both are now up 18:43:24 I didnt, the library im trying to use did ^^ 18:43:51 satiricon: you're welcome 18:43:56 -!- NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-251-248.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:43:57 oh, sorry, I thought you said "thank you" 18:44:05 nikodemus: got the first, pulling the second 18:44:14 NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-30-82-253-179-187.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:16 I was tryng to understand what you have said ajajaj 18:44:18 will do a little more auditing for errors :-) 18:44:25 I am using a foreign library 18:44:29 wich is curl 18:45:05 cl-curl would be a wrapper 18:46:03 galaxywatcher_ [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-46-75.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 18:46:26 and I am trying to parse the result of a curl http call to a list with cl-html-parse 18:46:46 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:47:05 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-54-116.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:47:06 -!- galaxywatcher_ is now known as galaxywatcher 18:47:28 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@93-80-207-196.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:47:33 the error would the be there? the cl-html-parse library expects a string encoded in utf-8? 18:47:51 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-19-198.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:56 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 18:51:12 dboswell [n=user@64.55.42.130] has joined #lisp 18:51:56 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:52:03 satiricon: curl is your problem, giving you things that you can't decode as strings. why are you using cl-curl over a native lisp solution like, say, drakma? 18:52:12 -!- brutus [n=brutus@triband-mum-120.62.2.102.mtnl.net.in] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:53:07 drewc, aahh I understand now, thanks, Im tryng to use curl because I am familiar with it 18:53:46 I am a n00b in lisp but I have been using curl extensively in c and in php 18:54:33 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:33 I ll give drakma a try I think... 18:54:36 thanks 18:54:54 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:58 satiricon: i would suggest using drakma and closure-html rather than the libraries you chose. 18:55:41 dreish, ok thanks i ll try that ;) 18:56:09 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:57:13 just for the record if I see that error again is there a way to decode those string anyways? 18:58:13 satiricon: Maybe if you actually knew what format it was in :) 18:58:14 encode or decode* 18:58:17 satiricon: that depends on what you mean. Any random string of bytes can mean anything you want it to. 18:58:49 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:59:05 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:59:50 tcr: now i can connected again -- my autoload stuff had broken somehow 19:00:07 satiricon: the thing is, you do actually have to know what it is you want to do. You're trying to read some bytes as utf-8 encoded strings, which they don't seem to be. The easy solution is "don't do that" :) 19:00:11 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.214.188] has joined #lisp 19:00:41 ok, now I got what you are saying 19:00:43 |Soulman| [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:01:07 posibly the string that curl is returning is in another format 19:01:14 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:01:17 or encoding.... 19:01:26 nor possibly, surely 19:01:28 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:01:43 milanj [n=milan@77.46.203.85] has joined #lisp 19:01:46 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:01:53 curl doesn't return lisp strings at all, it's a c library. 19:01:53 ill try something 19:02:42 Fare [n=Fare@static-68-161-232-114.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:00 tcr: autodoc seems to behave now, at least in few the places it used to hang horribly 19:03:03 many thanks! 19:03:11 I understand that, but how can I transform a c string in a lisp string? 19:03:24 just in case I need it some other time 19:03:39 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 19:04:05 satiricon: well, it's not really that simple, but the short answer is : 19:04:11 minion: tell satiricon about babel 19:04:13 satiricon: look at babel: Babel is a charset encoding/decoding library, not unlike GNU libiconv, but completely written in Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/babel 19:04:15 cause now I will use the librays sugested by you, but it could be that in the future I may need it 19:04:26 satiricon: looking at http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-curl/ the author doesn't use cl-curl himself anymore 19:04:34 this does not bode well for your efforts 19:04:47 you should probably try drakma instead 19:05:01 (or trivial-http) 19:05:07 I will, im just asking out of curiosity 19:05:08 I thouht cl-curl was just example for CFFI (: 19:05:31 satiricon: I'm betting that each lisp implementation has its own lil' way of storing strings, so maybe there is no "one way" :) 19:05:34 -!- djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:05:50 I see 19:06:14 CFFI knows how to make strings for the lisp it runs in -- that is not the issue 19:06:27 oh cool beans. 19:06:41 satiricon: but, if you don't know what a bag of bits is supposed to encode, it's hard to decode it. 19:07:43 the issue is what Krystof told you in the first place: you are trying to deocde stuff as UTF-8 when it isn't UTF-8 -- you need to tell cl-curl to use an appropriate external format (LATIN-1 is a safe bet), but possibly cl-curl doesn't support external formats at all, what with being alpha and unmaintained 19:08:07 I understand 19:09:03 ok thank you 19:09:12 -!- kejsaren3 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:09:13 ill use drakma instead curl 19:09:31 ;) 19:09:32 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:09:32 -!- kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:09:49 i sort of wish the utf-8-everywhere movement had been UCS4-everywhere instead 19:09:58 djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:20 more initial pains, but you could decode gibberish into gibberish :) 19:10:58 nikodemus: improved autodoc also means improved C-c C-s; try for example (with-open-file (| C-c C-s 19:11:42 heh 19:11:44 -!- phf [n=phf@c-76-124-103-85.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:12:25 has anyone messed with clojure and compared the two (CL and Clojure)? 19:13:23 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:13:53 you have to mess on your own if you want to form an opinion 19:14:13 yeah, just trying to figure out if it's worthwhile to even look at. 19:14:31 i'm pretty sure it depends on your needs 19:14:33 google gives me a few blogs and cll links. 19:14:42 "common lisp compared to clojure" 19:14:51 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-46-75.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:15:10 nikodemus: I still haven't come around writing the blog posting; good new stuff is slime-rgrep-system, slime-isearch-system, slime-query-replace-system and slime-query-replace-system-and-dependents 19:15:15 if you need heavy concurrency, portability, and jvm interop its a no-brainer 19:15:30 yeah, I'm thinking for soap services if possible. 19:15:37 that's the main drive of my even taking a look at it 19:15:38 nikodemus: the latter function perform the operation in its name on each file of the system that the user is queried for 19:16:04 if you need 2 out of those three, you have several options... 19:16:08 slime-query-replace-system is poor man's refactoring tool basically 19:16:19 *nikodemus* tries 19:16:31 do i need a contrib outside slime-fancy for that? 19:16:38 yes, slime-asdf 19:17:20 do not try it on alexandria with the asdf that ships with current sbcl :-) 19:19:38 too many dots in the name: # ... :) 19:20:01 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:02 got to go now 19:20:03 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:20:05 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:20:15 tcr: is it fixed in the new asdf? 19:22:37 yup 19:24:43 -!- djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has left #lisp 19:26:32 davazp [n=user@44.Red-88-6-207.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:35 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:30:04 does slot-value work on conditions, or do I always have to define a reader for condition slots? 19:30:31 not portably 19:31:02 the spec says "slot-value, slot-boundp, slot-makunbound, and with-slots must not be used on condition objects." 19:31:10 you have to define a reader which I find stupid because I don't know a naming scheme that doesn't suck 19:31:19 bleh 19:31:21 thanks :\ 19:31:43 Personally, I'm using condition-name--slot-name 19:32:08 that could get pretty huge 19:32:20 yeah but how often do you use them? 19:32:27 that's true 19:32:39 I'll give that naming scheme a whirl :) 19:32:49 If you do not intend to export them, just use slot-name 19:33:22 I'm a bit worried about conflicts with genfuns, in that case. 19:33:22 gko [i=7a740f8a@gateway/web/freenode/x-qtnbuqjyivbiclcj] has joined #lisp 19:33:27 you can of course define multiple readers, one for your own code (the short one) and one exported 19:33:36 -!- gko [i=7a740f8a@gateway/web/freenode/x-qtnbuqjyivbiclcj] has left #lisp 19:37:34 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-46-85.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 19:40:24 -!- xan [n=xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:41:34 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.132] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:43:51 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@85.249.162.121] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:44:05 nowhereman [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:18 jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-30-186-238.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:53:38 drewc: this contextl is very readable :) 19:53:54 readworthy maybe is the better word 19:54:06 schme: the paper, or the code? 19:54:17 the code. 19:54:23 I had no idea there was a paper. 19:54:38 I think there might be more than one paper, but yeah 19:54:51 great. 19:54:57 I hate reading papers (: 19:55:37 M-: (save-excursion (loop repeat 100 do (goto-char (random (point-max))) (slime-compute-autodoc) (slime-sync))) 19:55:45 It's funny watching that :-) 19:56:06 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit ["leaving"] 19:56:55 someone knows where I can get a good velocity benchmark of lisp vs c? 19:57:23 I don't even know where I can get good benchmarks of c vs c. 19:57:32 XDD 19:57:52 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host70.190-229-217.telecom.net.ar] has quit ["leaving"] 19:57:55 Im pretty shure lisp is slower than c, bur how much slower? 19:57:57 tcr: do you know if there's some way for us to record blocking relationships b/w bugs on launchpad? 19:57:58 but* 19:58:00 Tordek_ [i=tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/session] has joined #lisp 19:58:00 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-23-99.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:58:01 -!- Tordek_ is now known as Tordek 19:58:39 satiricon: I'm not so sure. But 100% sounds reasonable. 19:59:00 -!- PassingStranger_ [n=Horst@p54BF5481.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:59:04 = | 19:59:28 rpg: No I don't know but I'd be interested to know. If you're on a bug page, you can click on the exclamation mark after "Affects" to assign the bug to another project 19:59:47 rpg: launchpad itself in on launchpad, and you can ask questions there 20:00:05 That's what the "Answers" page is for 20:00:21 rpg: Btw. I comitted slime-query-replace-system-and-dependents yesterday 20:00:35 satiricon: It really does depend on a heckuva lot of things. It's not like there is one specific "speed of c" like there is speed of light (which happens to be c, funny!)) 20:00:49 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-117-99.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 20:01:18 XD 20:01:20 I understand 20:01:25 rpg: As said, that's imho a selling point for your company to get their asdf systems right 20:01:26 I was just wondering 20:02:06 cause I really like lisp, but I dont know if I would use it for real time apps 20:02:18 satiricon: 100% slower seems braggable anyway. 20:02:24 satiricon: You would not use lisp for real time apps. 20:02:38 pretty shure I couldnt 20:02:53 satiricon: That has less to do with speed and more to do with the GC. 20:02:53 but why lisp is that slow? 20:02:55 -!- Tordek [i=tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-njgkrwxmotakzewb] has quit ["leaving"] 20:03:03 nowherman [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:10 I have no idea in what world 100% "the speed of c" is considered slow. 20:03:11 -!- nowhereman [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:03:38 Tordek [i=tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-hfonxrcviybcokmo] has joined #lisp 20:03:51 these days, 1/10th the speed of C is doing pretty good. 20:04:01 oh sorry I toughth you were saying that lisp was the velocity of c puss 100% 20:04:14 plus* 20:04:23 satiricon: 2xspeed of C. sure. c+100% . that is what I am saying. 20:04:53 and I'm probably being to kind to the pythons skill of kicking out good speedy code there ;) 20:04:55 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 20:05:01 aahh, well that could be considered slow for c programmers 20:05:10 well obviously, yes. 20:05:27 and gcc generated code would, on average, be considered slow for icc users ;) 20:05:28 hefner: I'm working again on the performance of autodoc. The new CL code was previously just kludged in, I've now done better. 20:06:00 hefner: I'll tell you once it's in. 20:06:37 that said, did you have major problems after my last round of optimizations? 20:06:56 XD 20:07:04 satiricon: It is considered pretty darned speedy and good in the rest of the world. ocaml considers itself the speedy guy, it is bragging about what.. 4x the speed of C ? 20:07:56 I was just wondering why is that, it is because c is much more low level? 20:08:21 tcr: Cool. It still stumbles when I'm editing my 150-line disasters of functions. Also, I think your earlier changes broke Slime on ECL, but I hadn't the stamina to look into it. 20:08:35 fihi09` [n=user@pool-96-224-42-9.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:00 anyways I ll stay learning lisp, sorry for the stupid questions XD 20:09:06 satiricon: for lisp vs. C you have the whole thing of lisp wanting to maybe do more things at runtime etc. But you can write really fucking slow c, and really hecka fast lisp. 20:09:29 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 20:09:32 satiricon: It seems to me that speed issues tend to be more programmer related than language related. Bad algorithms etc. 20:09:46 konr [n=user@201.82.134.210] has joined #lisp 20:10:07 I understand.... you are right 20:10:11 francogrex [n=user@91.177.149.54] has joined #lisp 20:10:16 CL style and implementation limitations puts an upper limit on the speed you're going to reach. 20:10:28 satiricon: and if you want real time, then you get a whole world of issues with the GC maybe firing off in the middle of nowhere. You pretty much don't want anything of the sort for real time :) 20:11:43 hefner: The asdf changes? 20:12:11 hefner: ah the communication-style, try to go to head 20:13:12 tcr: I thought it was something arglist or autodoc related. One of those "I moved the cursor and now SLIME's in the debugger again" things. But I'll update and see what happens. 20:14:11 hefner: I put a catch against entering the debugger, it now should just display "Arglist error: ..." in the minibuffer as it did before 20:14:31 funny, I just noticed that this morning while puttering around in SBCL. 20:14:52 you mean you went into the debugger? 20:14:58 or that it didn't anymore? 20:15:03 no, I saw the "Arglist error" message. 20:15:25 Yes, I think Swank should never go into the debugger because of itself. 20:15:45 you can do M-x slime-toggle-debug-on-swank-error, if you want that to debug something 20:16:27 hefner: I'm interested in such arglist errors, of course. Do M-x slime-toggle-... then do again whatever you did, and send in the backtrace 20:16:33 as time permits of course :-) 20:17:33 ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:37 tcr: Sorry --- I don't remember the context about the asdf systems. 20:18:51 You mean get everyone updated to new ASDF? 20:18:55 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:19:15 Nah about your colleagues and spending time on asdf 20:19:17 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9329.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 20:19:27 improving status quo 20:19:50 tcr: My colleagues /tolerate/ my weakness for ASDF. I wouldn't go farther than that.... 20:20:47 M-x slime-query-replace-system-and-dependents is a real time-saver but it requires that each possible source-file (including non-lisp of course) is listed in a system definition 20:21:00 hmm, current Slime does appear to work with ECL. If I just chase down whatever ECL bug breaks my build script in threaded mode, I could actually attach Slime to my app instead of doing this compile/run/curse-profusely cycle. 20:21:45 I once tried add thread support for ECL to slime, but I went into some deadlock issues 20:22:33 tcr: I got very busy this week, so fell back to my old ways. I need to have another shot at getting SLIME to let me get a repl for the debugger./ 20:22:54 tcr: My last attempt failed ignominiously. 20:23:01 tcr: what are the ramifications of that statement on my wanting to spawn a thread in ECL to run a swank server within? 20:23:43 I can conform that its thread support is brittle 20:23:46 confirm 20:23:49 nicdev [n=nicdev@st401-115.subnet-255.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 20:24:56 -!- fihi09 [n=user@96.224.166.196] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:25:31 then perhaps I'll try this polling approach that was recently discussed, since my app is always spinning in a loop anyway. 20:25:48 swathanthran [n=user@117.204.87.213] has joined #lisp 20:26:42 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:28:27 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-30-186-238.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:29:02 jahmarley [n=jahmarle@88.238.219.210] has joined #lisp 20:32:12 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.214.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:32:16 as far as i know, mcclim can use gtk backend, and gtk is cross platform, so is sbcl, then what is the barrier in front of mcclim which prevents it from being platform (or windowing system) independent? 20:32:27 work 20:32:59 it can use gtk but not desperately well. Come to that, X is cross-platform too 20:34:14 didn't lichtblau have it kinda-sorta running with gtkairo on windows once? (if not him, perhaps someone else) 20:34:26 galaxywatcher_ [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-46-85.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 20:34:40 -!- Tordek [i=tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-hfonxrcviybcokmo] has quit ["leaving"] 20:34:45 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.177.149.54] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:35:41 hefner: i saw a tutorial which aims to do it but i had no luck on success 20:35:54 jahmarley: GTK isn't VERY cross-platform :) 20:36:10 rsynnott: isn't it? i d 20:36:12 in particular, the Mac one is not very good, and tends to break 20:36:16 i didn't know that 20:36:26 (you can use it on X11 on Mac fine, of course, but no-one really wants to do that) 20:37:16 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:37:24 rsynnott: afaik it works like a charm on windows, it almost works better than the default win32 windows :D 20:38:24 mac users don't want weird ported software anyway. 20:38:39 Well, there is that :) 20:39:00 ccl's objc integration allows the writing of extremely native-feeling applications, which is nice 20:39:57 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:40:56 i think clozure is a very nice implementation, probably the best cross-platform cl choice near sbcl 20:41:36 of course, i mean among free ones :) 20:43:35 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-218.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:44:21 i am not at a state to write multithreaded code i'm a total newbie but when i try to use some libs which needs threads, since there is no thread support on sbcl win port, it tends to behave weird, but except that, sbcl port on windows is pretty nice, too 20:44:42 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-19-198.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:45:05 -!- yacin [n=yacin@143.215.130.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:49:33 francogrex [n=user@91.177.149.54] has joined #lisp 20:50:38 which of the lisp sites is organized like a newslog by date, so that people know day by day what new stuff in lisp is (i don't think info in cliki is chronologically organized by day) 20:50:41 hello all, what html parser would you recommend? Unicode, easy to use, and happy with sloppy html 20:51:01 minion: closure-html? 20:51:02 closure-html: Closure-html is a portable HTML parsing library that understands malformed HTML. http://www.cliki.net/closure-html 20:51:22 stassats`: thanks 20:51:23 Tordek [i=tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-aqhgqdxszvwkwome] has joined #lisp 20:51:40 btw, i always see some argue on lisp-2 choice of ANSI Common Lisp, i don't see an extra useful result of this choice but also i don't really see a handicup, why exactly is it that important? 20:51:55 i've used it in conjunction with cxml-stp 20:52:13 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-46-85.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:52:14 -!- galaxywatcher_ is now known as galaxywatcher 20:52:32 jahmarley: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html 20:54:39 wich IDE besides slime is good for lisp? 20:55:07 satiricon: i think no ide besides slime is good among free ones 20:55:15 oh 20:55:21 and paid ones? 20:55:36 I think SLIME works with the paid ones too. 20:55:40 so they should be ok ;) 20:56:09 Lispworks' IDE is quite nice 20:56:19 satiricon: imho both of them are very good 20:57:08 it would be to hard to make a plug in for lets say... netbeans? 20:57:26 there's a plugin for eclipse 20:57:27 there's a plugin for eclipse 20:57:31 I found a plug in for eclipse 20:57:36 yea XD 20:57:38 there's a plugin for eclipse 20:57:44 *schme* joins in. 20:57:47 satiricon: if you are a newbie (like me), i should say that you will probably stick with emacs+s 20:57:47 lol 20:57:59 emacs+slime eventuallt 20:58:08 Im a total newbie 20:58:18 yes thats what I am using right now 20:58:21 satiricon: Why do you feel an urge to use something that is not SLIME ? 20:58:32 but I really dont like the look and feel 20:58:36 eventually* (i have the worst laptop keyboard, ever :)) 20:58:38 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.124.207.62] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:58:38 Is there something lacking? 20:58:59 dont know, I dont know to use it well actually 20:59:14 What kind of look and feel are you wanting? 20:59:31 but it feels very hacky 20:59:32 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:59:33 with all colours of rainbow 20:59:38 someting like netbeans 20:59:53 satiricon: you change the color scheme used by Emacs 21:00:24 I have been trying out some IDEs lately.. visual studio 2010 and that monodevelop. They seem quite good for well.. C# and so. I'm not convinced I'd like 'em for lisping :) 21:00:44 cools, I know you can make emacs again, but I am not used to the way it looks and feels 21:00:48 satiricon: the look and feel is really a issue for newbie, but not because it is not good, because it is not similar to an ide which you are probably used to, but when you get used to it, it rocks 21:01:10 looking at pics of netbeans, it seems to be somewhat the same as visual studio. :) 21:01:29 schme, it is 21:01:33 stassats`: Did you see my snippet above? 21:01:35 i gree with jahmarley 21:01:42 ditto 21:01:53 satiricon: I am guessing it is *possible* to make some addin for netbeans. But I have never used it so who knows :) 21:01:56 I do all my coding in netbeans, c, php and java 21:02:18 Is probably a great IDE for java and c (: 21:02:31 i used to use it back when i was doing Java 21:02:32 satiricon: You could write a plugin for netbeans. I don't know if one exists. Did you google? 21:02:34 got started sometime this year and now i am too used to the look i can't imagine anything else... used to use Eclipse but now I have moved everything to emacs 21:02:54 tcr, it appears that it doesnt exists 21:02:58 i moved to Emacs and I can't imagine using anything else now :P 21:03:03 tcr: what snippet? (i guess that's a "no") 21:03:13 ill think about making a plug in 21:03:20 emacs for c. *shudders* 21:03:25 stassats`: M-: (save-excursion (loop repeat 100 do (goto-char (random (point-max))) (slime-compute-autodoc) (slime-sync))) 21:03:41 the only other IDE I use is XCode for the Mac stuff 21:03:45 satiricon: You could also make a mcclim lisp IDE (: 21:04:10 cools: for proper dedication, you should also write your iPhone apps in Emacs :) 21:04:11 stassats`: I'm using that to test some new code I wrote, but it's nice to watch imho :-) 21:04:36 (the first wave of official iphone apps were made without interface builder, so obviously it wouldn't be a problem ;) ) 21:04:59 rsynnott: I know, I don't like XCode :P 21:05:16 schme, first the plain lisp language one :P 21:05:29 satiricon: when a newbie sees an emacs+slime platform for the first time, it seems like a basic ms notepad window, you think what the f is that, did they stop maintaning it after world war II? but after a few days, you'll see why everyone insists on advising it as a cl ide. 21:05:31 satiricon: mcclim is plain lisp (: 21:06:19 plain lisp. plisp. 21:06:24 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-117-99.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit ["lsakjfhlieufhdks"] 21:06:29 hahha 21:06:38 jahmarley, I know emacs is very powerfull I just dont like it XD 21:06:40 tcr: M-x zone is more fun 21:06:44 jahmarley: I think main reason everyone recommends it is the lack of anything else that is remotely good :) 21:06:50 YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:07:19 stassats`: Sure :-) 21:07:34 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:07:37 jahmarley: that's exactly what i thought when i started using Emacs+Slime Takes some getting used to, but worth it in the end 21:08:22 What's so good about slime compared to nowadays IDEs? 21:08:47 It's retro! 21:08:49 tcr, thats a good question 21:08:51 Isn't it mostly Emacs' command-driven UI? 21:08:58 is very hacky =) 21:09:09 tcr: None of them really feature any good integration with the lisp. :) 21:09:13 -!- Tordek [i=tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-aqhgqdxszvwkwome] has quit ["leaving"] 21:09:17 it is very hacky* 21:09:25 (commercial lisps with their own IDE excluded, of course) 21:09:30 luis: Did you know that your nick is colored green here? :-) 21:09:50 Green on black? :) 21:09:52 schme: I'm not talking about Lisp integration, but general usage 21:10:09 Nah I on white 21:10:15 XD 21:10:21 but you're the only one with a greenish color, luis 21:10:31 tcr: Oh you mean for non-lisping? I see no giant win for slime there compared to whatever then. 21:10:34 = | 21:10:41 nah hefner, too, but more a grass-like green 21:10:47 so, what can we borrow? 21:11:25 Tordek [i=tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-zvsmfgbgqktvytkh] has joined #lisp 21:12:16 I see no giant benefit with the "modern" IDEs either. Same, same, different looks. It seems to me. 21:12:27 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 21:12:28 and different keys to press (: 21:12:44 schme, it is all about look and feel XD 21:12:56 <[df]> I don't have much experience with them, but I get the impression that it's hassle to write plugins for the popular IDEs 21:13:08 I really like the auto-completion of netbeans 21:13:08 <[df]> compared to just hacking out some elisp 21:13:30 [df]: That's why you don't do it. :) you use your dolphin for smalltalk, your visual studio for f#, your netbeans for java.. etc. :) 21:13:42 and the project driven working methodology 21:13:44 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:44 -!- attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 21:13:50 satiricon: How does the auto-completion work? 21:13:59 <[df]> schme: that's no good for me though, because I have loads of stuff in my .emacs that I'd want to use whatever language I'm programming 21:14:14 that's why i like Emacs, you can get whatever look 'n' feel you want 21:14:21 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:14:22 tcr: are you coming to ELS 2010? 21:14:35 [df]: Yes, I understand that. Problem there is that for quite some languages there are "better" alternatives :) 21:14:50 <[df]> possibly 21:14:53 you write a lettet and you press alt+space and appears a list of all the posible function, methods or classes that start with that letter 21:15:11 satiricon: I'm convinced you can do that with slime. 21:15:19 luis: If I can make it. I wondered whether I should give a slime tutorial. 21:15:22 <[df]> I do find myself wishing that emacs was as good for programming in other languages as for lisp with slime 21:15:41 satiricon: that's one of the selling points of Slime 21:15:44 [df]: Don't we all (: 21:15:53 satiricon: even vim does that for ya :D 21:16:27 -!- udzinari` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:16:38 you can actually, but the list appears in other buffer, and the functions apearing are just the standard ones and the functions defined in the opened file 21:16:44 satiricon: you can type "foobar" and press TAB in slime and it will show you everything containg "f", "o", ... in that order (though possibly with additional character in between) and have it sorted by a score 21:16:48 satiricon: not true 21:17:04 satiricon: What's the "project driven methodology" ? 21:17:14 rsynnott, the maybe I have to configure it? 21:17:16 satiricon: No, Slime talks to your running CL implementation for introspection 21:17:20 in slime it'll autocomplete based on what's available in the lisp instance 21:17:37 and it has fuzzy completion, which is brilliant :) 21:17:45 satiricon: for example, you can type "sb:with-", and it'll show you all exported with- style macros in all of SBCL's packages 21:18:10 They do tend to pop up in a new buffer though. 21:18:11 stassats`: in fact, i guess both of us know what satiricon means by "look and feel" isn't color settings of fonts etc, emacs has certain interface characteristic which cannot easily be changed even if you customize everything 21:18:29 I guess one could make it cycle through 'em. 21:18:48 tcr, didnt knew that.... 21:18:55 stassats`: but i don't think this is not a very logical reason for someone to use a probably more basic ide than emacs for cl development 21:19:04 jahmarley: This is so true. And somehow the emacs look and feel semes to fit lisping very well. for me atleast :) 21:19:23 schme: i agree. 21:19:23 schme, thats because you are used to it 21:19:38 anyways 21:19:40 satiricon: you can get used to it too 21:19:43 I will use emacs 21:19:47 satiricon: But I use something else for everything else. 21:19:59 natto [n=natto@207-180-136-35.c3-0.sbo-ubr2.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 21:20:07 tcr: yeah, sounds great! 21:20:08 satiricon: no, that's because emacs+slime is not only a cl ide, it is more 21:20:15 satiricon: I find emacs horrid for asm, c, forth, the smalltalk, the erlang even, and nowadays the F# too (: 21:20:17 and I will think about making a plug in for netbeans in a no so distant future, when I get a proper knowledge of lisp 21:20:25 satiricon: I added some project-oriented stuff to slime lately. 21:20:40 satiricon: do it :) 21:20:50 tcr, how is that? 21:21:04 satiricon: M-x slime-open-system will, for example, open all files of a system 21:21:14 satiricon: I'd be the first one to uninstall emacs if there was something nicer :D 21:21:14 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:21:31 qt-hemlock? 21:21:41 hi, what's the proper term of "removing parenthesis from a list", i.e. a list (1 2 3) becomes 1 2 3 (e.g. if using this expansion in a fn of arity 3)? 21:21:45 satiricon: repl makes cl an interactive development language, probably something different compared to most of the coding conventions of popular language, and emacs+slime is a good base for that kind of development 21:21:45 then I'd have to install qt! :) 21:21:53 natto: apply 21:22:18 schme: is that a no-go? 21:22:21 jahmarley: visual studio features a nice repl. (: 21:22:27 jahmarley, with netbenas you can get a console of wathever you want too 21:22:48 stassats`: Also I don't quite see what the major win of some qt-hemlock over slime would be.. It's the ol' "good enough" (: 21:22:59 schme: can i test any function individually there? 21:23:04 I believe that the lisp way of working is easily implementable as a plug in 21:23:13 I dare you to do it 21:23:25 stassats`: It seems so, sure. But it's only available for F#. 21:23:35 tcr: I'd go to that tutorial. I'm such a lousy SLIME user. :) 21:23:54 tcr, note that I said I believe, I actually dont know 21:24:34 i think "an ide featuring a console for interactive development" and "a language which has an interactive development approach" are different things 21:25:16 stassats: nailed it, thank you 21:25:24 luis: What would you like to hear about? 21:25:56 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.177.149.54] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:26:29 satiricon: I don't doubt the netbeans thing is doable. You just need some way to communicate with the lisp. You might want to look at SWANK for that. 21:26:57 satiricon: The real tricky part will be coming up with a good name that fits in between slime, swank, and beans. 21:27:02 luis: I heard people were griping about it at sbcl10 :-/ 21:27:45 XD 21:28:20 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:29:38 satiricon: lisp way of working is implemented fairly well on some platforms: genera on lisp machines. i think it is not a very logical choice to use a very wide scaled ide for lisp development, lisp really has different characteristics, imho, even emacs+slime is not the best place to code in lisp, but it is the best we have i guess :) 21:29:46 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9329.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:30:36 I don't think it was that different on lisp machines except for lisp all the way down 21:31:15 "lisp all the way down" is what would die for :D 21:31:30 jahmarley: so hack on movitz 21:31:35 ok I ll be studing lisp with emacs+slime for a while before I get enough lisp knoledge to make anything so.... XD 21:31:50 schme: i'm trying :) 21:31:56 \o/ 21:32:23 good bye! going back to real life XD 21:32:38 bye satiricon 21:32:53 tcr: really? I didn't get that. 21:33:09 -!- satiricon [n=david@190.51.102.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:37:41 -!- Oddity [n=Oddity@99.199.136.138] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:38:27 baddog [n=user@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 21:41:55 -!- jahmarley [n=jahmarle@88.238.219.210] has left #lisp 21:42:20 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:44:51 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 21:45:19 chrisdone [n=user@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has joined #lisp 21:45:22 http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/5852/shangtsungiscommonlisp.png amirite 21:47:08 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:51:51 austinh [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:33 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:55:36 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:56:08 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 21:56:25 -!- baddog [n=user@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:56:42 -!- konr [n=user@201.82.134.210] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:56:47 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 22:00:48 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:01:39 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 22:01:39 saikatc [n=saikatc@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:19 -!- nicdev [n=nicdev@st401-115.subnet-255.amherst.edu] has left #lisp 22:05:41 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 22:07:06 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72c07c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:39 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-82-106.w90-25.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:12:02 mjsor [n=mjsor@c-71-193-150-13.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:15 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:17:05 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 22:19:33 hi again, how to force cr-lf into an sbcl string? 22:21:06 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:33 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:24:59 udzinari` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:25:24 francogrex [n=user@91.177.149.54] has joined #lisp 22:25:38 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:41 anyone experienced with the WCL implementation? 22:26:54 -!- KatchaFire [n=KatchaFi@bas33-4-88-180-245-209.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 22:26:54 francogrex: url? 22:27:05 puchacz, what about (format t "line1~%line2") ? 22:27:43 akamus: won't it be platform dependant, and in linux it will be just one character? 22:27:54 schme: http://pgc.com/commonlisp/ I guess... 22:28:31 is there a simpler way to do (format nil "~A" foo)? 22:28:35 minion: wcl 22:28:36 wcl: WCL is a Common Lisp implementation that compiles to C code. http://www.cliki.net/wcl 22:29:07 tic [n=tic@c83-249-193-189.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:29:27 -!- natto [n=natto@207-180-136-35.c3-0.sbo-ubr2.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:31:03 oho 22:31:27 -!- swathanthran [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:31:58 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:32:10 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:31 sykopomp: (princ foo) ? 22:33:41 oh nil 22:33:44 *schme* read t 22:33:45 right 22:33:48 :\ 22:33:49 *schme* is an idiot. 22:33:54 (princ-to-string foo) 22:34:39 puchacz: "^M^J" 22:34:43 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-49-51.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:34:44 Krystof: aha 22:34:47 thank you 22:34:58 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:35:22 Krystof: thanks 22:35:35 schme: it's seems weird 22:35:41 francogrex: how so? 22:36:07 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@174.59.195.12] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:36:50 well, noone seems to be using it here 22:37:19 So what is the weird part? 22:37:38 no one uses gcl or clisp either ;) 22:38:43 *udzinari`* is still trying to compile clisp on n900 :/ 22:38:45 francogrex: I seem to remember LiSP having a whole chapter on generating C from lisp. 22:38:47 some do seem to use clisp, not sure what gcl is though 22:39:16 Guthur: ok. no one but Patzy uses clisp. and no one uses gcl. (: 22:39:40 hehe, i was thinking about generating C from lisp, yesterday actually 22:39:48 well, just exploring unknown implmentations tonight, there is something called xcl 22:40:10 udzinari`: That should be doable. I built it on my zaurus. and the n900 has even moar power :) 22:40:20 Guthur: What on earth for? (: 22:40:28 -!- mjsor [n=mjsor@c-71-193-150-13.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:40:41 schme: ..and armel cpu 22:41:13 schme i'm kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place, i need to create a small demo for a khepera robot but the only work method i have is with matlab 22:41:26 udzinari`: Yes. and I tell you I built clisp on my zaurus and it's an intel xscale, and it has like 64mb of ram. so with a beast like n900 it should run superfast. 22:41:44 udzinari`: I even built emacs and run slime on it + w3m for the hyperspec lookup (: 22:42:13 i was looking at alternatives, the only viable one was in C which i thought might work, but then realised you had to 'register' your code with the framework in C, it was a dreadful API actually 22:42:26 calling it an API is being rather generous 22:42:43 Guthur: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khepera_mobile_robot ? 22:43:01 schme yep thats the one 22:43:02 mle [n=emily@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:13 i'm just developing in a simulator though 22:43:42 hmmm looks like fun. 22:43:45 then i'll try running the code on the robot, the uni used to have lots of physical robots but only one working one now 22:44:00 ya it is cool actually 22:44:06 but matlab coding is a pain 22:44:08 and you need to go through some bizarre API? You don't get a nice hardware ref and "HAVE FUN, WARRANTY VOID IF YOU KILL YOURSELF" ? 22:44:38 getting the simulator is the bizarre thing 22:44:46 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:46 the only working one i have is with matlab 22:45:19 what a bummer. and matlab can work with your generated C code ? (: 22:45:38 nah that was an alternative i was looking at 22:46:17 i generated lispy bindings, only to realise that you have to provide the API with C functions for it to run 22:46:30 some crazy setup 22:46:42 it has the longs main function i have ever seen 22:46:46 550+ lines 22:46:55 longs/longest 22:47:14 -!- akamaus [n=maus@94.231.112.177] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:48:13 i'm using genetic algorithms (fancy random number generator) to produce sensor weightings to allow the robot to navigate the environment 22:48:36 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.80.97] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:48:46 This site is making it very hard to find where I order one of these things that I really do need. 22:48:46 its quite good fun, would be more so if i could use a nicer language 22:48:58 can you not just work with C ? 22:49:15 I guess maybe it dun work with the simulator. 22:50:00 i'll use matlab for now, only has to be a simple demo for this project 22:50:09 I understand that this thing can be hooked up with a thing that I can squeeze cat tails with. 22:50:19 hehe the gripper 22:50:26 quodlibetor [n=user@ool-45723726.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:32 yeeees 22:51:12 it is a cool thing to play with 22:51:22 they are expensive i think though 22:52:26 Now imagine 30 o thesee working as checkers on a huge backgammon board. 22:52:33 controlled via gnubg. 22:52:47 *schme* goes to bed with sweet dreams. 22:53:08 hehe, robots taking over the world 22:53:32 you want to integrate some swarming behaviour, that would be sweet to see 22:53:53 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp039.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 22:53:54 dancing miniature robots 22:54:16 i'm compiling that xcl, it seems smooth; still experimental it says 22:54:36 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-20-218.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:55:49 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 22:57:28 now cl implementation in c++ is fun... 22:58:21 no documentations though 22:59:55 BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:03 when did that xcl project start? 23:07:40 -!- billitch [n=billitch@fac34-6-82-240-131-189.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 23:08:00 -!- shrughes [n=shrughes@c-65-96-172-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091215231400]"] 23:11:22 Oddity [n=Oddity@99.199.136.138] has joined #lisp 23:13:30 -!- davazp [n=user@44.Red-88-6-207.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:15:13 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9329.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 23:21:23 puchacz: yo! :) 23:22:19 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:39 p_l: hey 23:22:42 what's up? 23:23:27 nothing much, except I'm on the verge of failing the year and back in poland :P 23:23:46 also got to work with "secret" reports 23:24:36 p_l: see priv 23:28:57 antoni [n=user@79.pool85-53-0.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 23:29:20 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B343A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:49 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-060-117.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:48 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.177.149.54] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:31:58 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 23:32:25 rares [n=rares@174-26-7-168.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:30 TJohn [i=as@118-160-168-4.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:44 redblue [i=star@ppp053.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:34:02 as_ [i=as@118-168-235-61.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:33 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-060-117.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:40:01 xan [n=xan@83.36.170.13] has joined #lisp 23:40:02 phf [n=phf@c-76-124-103-85.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:10 merl15 [n=merl@80-121-69-74.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 23:42:18 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.80.97] has joined #lisp 23:43:59 *wgl* checks minion 23:44:28 -!- antoni [n=user@79.pool85-53-0.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:44:46 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 23:46:28 -!- as_ [i=as@118-168-235-61.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:49:52 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:51:53 -!- TJohn [i=as@118-160-168-4.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:52:45 Jasko [n=tjasko@174.59.195.12] has joined #lisp 23:55:07 any suggestions on how to realise a MDI application, does one usually require a specialist framework/API? 23:56:02 MDI? Do you mean Multiple windows inside one main frame? 23:56:13 p_l ya 23:56:52 i thinking it's not an easy thing to pull off 23:57:30 Guthur: you mean you want an FFI to MFC? 23:57:31 billitch [n=billitch@fac34-6-82-240-131-189.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:39 or which toolkit? 23:57:48 Guthur: CLIM wouldn't fit, I think (well, it might work if you decide on tiling approach), Qt and GTK bindings both support such a thing 23:58:00 Gtk has MDI? 23:58:57 yeah 23:59:19 umm possibly gtk 23:59:21 arrived later, but was there before 2.0, iirc 23:59:25 i'll have a look 23:59:59 pretty much all the toolkits have problems interacting with lisp cleanly