00:00:12 kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:00:12 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:00:57 Guthur, LOOP returns nil unless you've used some collecting/accumulation clauses 00:01:00 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:02:30 you could try keeping a list of the generated slot definitions, PUSHing to it yourself, and splicing it into the struct definition. 00:02:55 jsoft [i=josh@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 00:04:04 Posterdati [n=angel@host66-208-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 00:04:52 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:05:39 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-116-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:29 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-tanahltgbocixlwu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:08:29 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 00:09:21 ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 00:12:29 hehe i found one way to do it, not pretty though 00:13:53 Guthur annotated #91966 "second go" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91966#1 00:14:13 of course in practice i wouldn't push to the attribute-list 00:14:29 johnthesavage [n=jahnthes@cpe-67-247-232-237.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:15:05 I'd ask if there was a reason you were using structs instead of classes, but it's fairly obvious that you need this to at least pretend to be efficient. 00:15:42 -!- johnthesavage [n=jahnthes@cpe-67-247-232-237.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:15:56 i just used structs because i did not see the need for CLOS 00:15:59 Guthur, everything else aside, do you realize that `, is a no-op? 00:16:25 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-116-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 00:17:00 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 00:17:37 adlai ah yes i see 00:17:44 oops 00:18:06 went a bit quote/comma crazy 00:18:30 nyef: was there something particular about classes that would help 00:18:59 poet [n=poet@unaffiliated/poet] has joined #lisp 00:19:04 Guthur, the standard doesn't provide any reflection capabilities for structs. 00:19:25 well, it does let you check the type of a struct instance 00:19:34 and it has a single-inheritance hierarchy 00:19:55 but you can't do (slot-value 'frobbyness) 00:20:04 i don't need MI and probably no need for reflection either 00:20:31 this is only half what i was intending 00:20:45 the second portion creates a CFFI struct to match 00:21:19 cstruct* 00:21:22 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:21:25 have you read the PCL chapter about writing macros? 00:21:50 adlai yes i do reference it 00:22:08 and yes i'm not very good at macros, as i mentioned earlier 00:22:29 have you written a sample use and its expansion? 00:23:29 well i have created the structs by hand if thats what you mean 00:23:50 there is also another small element that is tied to the structs structure 00:24:08 i want the macro to unify all these 00:24:53 schoppen2auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 00:24:56 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.195.126] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:25:27 so that i just pass the slot names and type, and it creates the lisp struct, cstruct, opengl buffer pointers, and possibly copy method for filling the cstruct from the lisp struct 00:25:29 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:25:45 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit ["."] 00:26:15 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:26:16 probably trying to do a little too much with it 00:28:35 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:28:37 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:38 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:28:49 ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 00:29:21 obneq [n=lukas@80-219-169-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:29:41 -!- macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["(call-with-current-continuation sleep)"] 00:30:06 Guthur, by "sample use and expansion", I mean something like the 2nd and 3rd code samples under the "A Sample Macro: do-primes" heading in chapter 8 of PCL 00:30:20 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:30:54 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:31:07 well you don't get much more simple an expansion than to a defstuct 00:31:20 and obviously its only used once 00:31:23 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:30 -!- sepult`` [n=user@xdsl-78-35-192-155.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:32:44 well more than once if you want more than one vertex type, which is possible 00:32:47 Guthur, it will -really- help you write this macro if you write concrete examples (plural!) of how you want to use it, and how you want these sample uses to expand. 00:33:27 that is the example can't be more concrete than that 00:34:00 its not loop or even doprimes 00:34:04 TuxPurple_ [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 00:34:14 "loop", "doprimes 00:34:41 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:34:46 "loop", "doprimes", and "it creates the lisp struct, cstruct, opengl buffer pointers, and possibly copy method for filling the cstruct from the lisp struct" are english descriptions, not CL code. 00:35:10 _deepfire pasted "COMPOSE*" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91969 00:35:11 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:35:33 well i have the cl code that i want it to expand i have created a cl-opengl renderer, which requires all those 00:35:38 dnolen [n=dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 00:37:01 balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-76-255-196-121.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:20 what i was trying at the moment was to get the macro concepts together 00:40:05 sepult [n=user@xdsl-78-35-192-155.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:42:18 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:43:43 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-116-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:38 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:46:38 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 00:47:14 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 00:48:00 brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:48:06 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:35 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Connection timed out] 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[n=james@c-76-121-2-144.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:25:22 how can I get the pathname of the directory where the executable running lisp is installed? isn't there an SBCL specific way to get argc and argv? 01:26:22 -!- moah [n=gnu@84.63.209.48] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:26:31 sb-ext:*posix-argv* 01:27:04 how do i extract the directory from that? 01:29:14 -!- Hun [n=hun@80.153.55.38] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:31:18 ... Unreliably. 01:31:43 But, if memory serves, you have the same problem in C anyway. 01:32:21 Essentially, if it's a filename without a path component, it has to be somewhere on $PATH. Otherwise, it's a full (or relative) pathname anyway. 01:32:23 I tried (make-pathname :directory (pathname-directory (car sb-ext:*posix-argv*)) 01:32:38 that seems to work. 01:32:54 Umm... Your other option is that there's a function in the runtime that's used to find the executable in order to check for an embedded core. 01:37:40 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:38:00 -!- milanj- [n=milan@91.148.66.215] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:39:31 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:40:49 Balooga pasted "Determining the current directory" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91971 01:41:39 dto: I used the previous to determine the directory of the sbcl executable in order to load the music file from the same directory. 01:42:32 hmm. 01:42:51 DrForr_ [n=drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:51 I don't think you want to be limited to sbcl. 01:43:11 i've been using a similar approach and it doesn't work. 01:43:46 (pathname-directory 01:43:46 (load-time-value 01:43:46 (or #.*compile-file-truename* *load-truename*) 01:44:38 what's wrong with *d-p-d*? 01:45:54 pkhuong: What's that do? It returns #P"" for me, which doesn't seem too useful. 01:45:58 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:46:10 billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-216-227-81-218.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:17 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:46:29 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:05 dto: Right, because the l-t-v is going off when you load the fasl, not when you restart the saved core. 01:47:25 oh. 01:47:31 pooh. 01:48:09 dto: The code I pasted worked in a Lispworks created .exe 01:48:38 i care what happens on sbcl for now, that's what i actually distribute and need to work. hmm 01:49:08 nyef: you class may end up being easier for that macro i was looking at for one simple reason, the slots are contained within a list 01:49:28 was just looking at the cffi defcstruct and thats what it uses underneath 01:49:45 Guthur: Also makes knowing what the accessors are easier. 01:50:23 hehe you have to see the craziness i was hacking, to get structs to work properly 01:50:39 well best not to seeing actually 01:50:47 to// 01:50:54 dto: Okay, have a look at os_get_runtime_executable_path(). It's defined to return a char *, takes no arguments, and is in the SBCL runtime as a platform-dependent function so it should even work on windows. 01:51:08 nyef: thank you 01:51:30 dto: Fair warning, though, it will return NULL if it can't figure it out. 01:51:45 mooglenorph [n=marco@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:46 Guthur: Yeah, I bet it wasn't pretty, given that it would have had to duplicate part of defstruct just to get the accessors. 01:52:56 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:53:07 it was creating the constructor that was really mental 01:53:17 not practical at all 01:53:47 milanj [n=milan@91.148.66.215] has joined #lisp 01:54:40 -!- DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:54:54 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 01:55:07 only way i could see was to pass the vertex name as a string and then intern symbols which wasn't pretty, i was very close to turning to eval 01:55:18 i'll switch to classes 01:55:22 dto: Just tried (alien-funcall (extern-alien "os_get_runtime_executable_path" (function c-string))), and it seems like it works. 01:55:57 Hi. Is there a well-documented mixed integer linear programming library in CL? Or bindings? I checked cliki and can't really find anything. 01:56:49 mooglenorph: there's one student here who's wrapping gurobi in CL. 01:57:06 -!- milanj [n=milan@91.148.66.215] has quit [Client Quit] 01:58:23 pkhuong: Hm. That looks interesting, not OSS but I can deal with that. 01:59:07 Bobrobyn [n=rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:59:18 I might need it before your student finishes though... :-\ (I am trying to figure out how much of a project I can get into common lisp) 02:00:51 pkhuong: Will this be posted anywhere when they are done? 02:05:10 Younder [n=jthing@88.159.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 02:06:19 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:07:24 -!- interferon [n=interfer@pool-96-224-36-86.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:07:49 mooglenorph: probably. The C API is easy to wrap yourself if you just want to get something done. 02:09:10 pkhuong: How quickly can they give you an academic licence? 02:09:30 30 seconds. 02:10:35 pkhuong: that's great, thanks for the pointer to this 02:10:46 -!- poet [n=poet@unaffiliated/poet] has left #lisp 02:11:03 milanj [n=milan@91.148.66.215] has joined #lisp 02:11:10 They're the genius behind CPLEX. 02:11:35 -!- schoppen2auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:12:07 Their LP isn't as hot as CPLEX's yet, but the MIP part is really strong. 02:12:29 The MIP part is more important for my application. 02:12:43 ericjames [n=ericjeld@24.144.136.246] has joined #lisp 02:14:40 So that's fine. 02:16:50 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["sleep"] 02:16:57 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:17:53 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-gsbxegintflqaxmb] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:18:21 -!- milanj [n=milan@91.148.66.215] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:19:13 -!- ericjames [n=ericjeld@24.144.136.246] has quit [] 02:19:56 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:24:20 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-52-94.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 02:26:57 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:27:24 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 02:28:50 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 02:30:25 rumbleca [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:55 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 02:32:34 yates [n=yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:33:14 i'm looking into weblocks, but one of the things that alarms me is that it seems to require hutchentoot for the server - is there no way to configure it to run with apache? 02:36:07 -!- TuxPurple_ [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:36:13 konr1 [n=konrad@201.82.128.190] has joined #lisp 02:36:51 dnolen_ [n=dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:24 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:39:27 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:29 milanj [n=milan@cable-94-189-240-101.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 02:47:19 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:53:44 konr [n=user@201.82.128.190] has joined #lisp 02:54:23 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:54:23 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 02:55:19 yates: how would that even make sense? 02:55:34 yates: apache isn't written in lisp. you need a lisp server somewhere. 02:56:07 yates: what do you want apache for? you can use mod_proxy to forward the requests for dynamic pages 02:56:37 quodlibetor [n=user@ool-45723726.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:18 rahul: how would that make sense? apache is a web server! 02:57:26 -!- milanj [n=milan@cable-94-189-240-101.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:57:46 i obviously have the paradigm of weblocks seriously wrong 02:58:08 i thought it operated like a cgi, and the lisp code was compiled and interfaced with whatever server 02:58:55 nope it's not that way 02:59:00 i am just taking my first steps... 02:59:26 pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has joined #lisp 02:59:28 not much sense really, common-lisp compiler is a pretty big thing, so you don't really want to load it up for each request 02:59:52 when it comes to deployment it's closer to java than perl i'd say 02:59:56 ummm, do you load the C compiler for each request? no. 03:00:02 a common lisp server behind an apache 03:00:21 in a C-based CGI script, that is. 03:01:01 yes, but because of it's dynamic language, most of the time most of the applications "include" common-lisp compiler in them (i know it sounds strange) 03:01:10 but try using "eval" without a compiler 03:01:10 but i have th paradigm wrong - it's not a server=<-> cgi <-> whatever programming language type of thing 03:01:12 -!- pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has left #lisp 03:01:40 think java, or even python 03:01:47 you can use python as CGI 03:01:49 but most of the time 03:02:10 you either use mod_wsgi or start python web server behind apache 03:02:26 and mod_wsgi starts a python process inside apache 03:02:34 so you really are running persistent processes 03:02:44 instead of starting a new process every time 03:02:49 on the other hand 03:02:57 yes, there are some apps in common lisp 03:03:02 that run using the cgi method 03:03:09 just that it's not common 03:04:24 i think i see 03:04:25 thanks 03:04:32 thanks ignas 03:04:38 so you do "Apache (because it can handle "evil" http requests) in front, common-lisp server behind 03:04:46 and most of the time use apache to serve the static content 03:04:52 via mod_proxy? 03:04:58 just because it's better optimized to do that 03:05:04 i use mod_rewrite 03:05:13 but I think mod_proxy should work too 03:05:50 mod_proxy is essentially an apache module that lets you route certain urls to an alternate server? 03:06:21 or mod_rewrite? 03:06:24 or the same server, but different port 03:06:53 my common-lisp servers are listening on localhost only, and all the input from outside is handled by apache 03:07:20 ignas: right, so you don't even have the custom internal port open on your firewall? 03:07:29 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229176237.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 03:07:48 nope 03:08:05 and even if I had 03:08:15 sevrer is only listening 127.0.0.1 03:08:22 so it won't accept connections from outside 03:08:38 oh, i see 03:08:40 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:30 so is hutchentoot/weblocks actually running a lisp interpreter in real-time response to request?!? 03:09:37 baddog [n=baddog@110.32.142.113] has joined #lisp 03:09:51 that would be piggishly slow, no? 03:09:57 ? 03:10:07 -!- jsoft [i=josh@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:10:08 you ever used any dynamic languages? 03:10:15 with a repl? 03:10:21 define "dynamic language". 03:10:27 *rahul* facepalm 03:10:29 python, perl, ruby 03:10:37 do you mean interpreted languages? 03:10:40 no 03:10:41 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:50 i have not used python, perl or ruby, no 03:11:11 yates: why on earth would you want to use a lisp program but not want to use it in lisp? 03:11:29 define "program" 03:11:38 yates: have you used a web server since 1998? 03:11:46 CGI was outdated in 1998. 03:12:04 yates, when you start common-lisp "environment" you load the compiler and interpreter and libraries and everything needed, but when a request comes to your web app, only the code that processes the request is executed 03:12:23 we won't continue this conversation if you're going to belittle. 03:12:26 yates: also, "interpreted languages" is a completely useless term 03:12:28 rahul ^^^^ 03:12:43 yates: you're the one who doesn't want to use lisp. why are you here? 03:12:51 yates, just like with java, you load the whole "JRE", but that does not prevent it from being blazingly fast when processing requests, even if slow to startup 03:12:56 rahul: stop putting words in my mouth 03:13:13 rahul: would you like to be /ignored? 03:13:26 yates: no, I'd like you to say something sensible for once 03:13:33 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-161-71-17.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 03:13:37 argh 03:13:39 please stop 03:13:41 both of you 03:13:44 bye rahul 03:14:06 ignas: give me a chance to read your comments for a minute. 03:14:07 -!- baddog [n=baddog@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Client Quit] 03:14:08 ignas: also, note that you listed "interpeted" languages in response to his question about dynamic languages 03:14:20 yes, as they are the most popular examples 03:14:23 at the moment at least 03:14:27 baddog [n=baddog@110.32.142.113] has joined #lisp 03:14:28 right 03:14:33 but he'll get the wrong impression 03:14:51 he can fix it later ;) he has time 03:15:08 explaining common-lisp to someone who came from gcc foo.c -o foo && ./foo is difficult 03:15:11 ignas: if all you run is the code, why do you need the interpreter? 03:15:14 understanding is even more difficult 03:15:22 -!- konr [n=user@201.82.128.190] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:15:31 yates, implementation detail mostly 03:15:39 ignas: there probably won't be a "later" when he concludes that anything you could do using lisp will always be "piggishly slow" 03:15:45 yates, some common-lisp compilers can "strip" it from the final executable 03:15:51 yates, but that is a "feature" 03:15:59 yates, and does not need to be performed 03:17:53 yates, it does not really affect performance much, startup time can suffer, which is why i am suggesting "start once, process 1 million times" approach, over "start up 1 million times" 03:18:19 ignas: um, the existence of a repl rarely affects startup time 03:18:47 especially if you're not starting the repl at startup time 03:19:26 not repl, IIRC application that is an sbcl "executable" is pretty heavy 03:19:27 jsoft [i=josh@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 03:19:31 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-1-128.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:19:38 let me back up a bit 03:19:41 though that does not slow it down really 03:19:42 ignas: define "heavy" 03:19:55 what distinguishes "interpreted" from "dynamic"? 03:19:59 ignas: a 100 byte file is an sbcl executable 03:20:26 yates, interpreted is a feature of the implementation, dynamic is a feature of a language 03:21:04 ignas: does this explain it well? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_programming_language 03:21:36 think so 03:22:06 rahul, hmm, i was referring to the "core files" that have to be loaded on sbcl startup 03:22:11 i see re: implementation vs. language 03:22:18 rahul, though to be honest, i don't know how much that affects startup 03:22:36 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-73-107.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:22:46 rahul, and whether it would be improved if everything that is not "used" would be stripped 03:23:06 that's a horrible description 03:23:11 the wikipedia article 03:23:40 it talks about everything except the main feature of a dynamic language: the ability to change the association between symbol and function 03:23:59 ignas: the size of the core file doesn't really change startup time measurably 03:24:00 <_3b> core files are usually the faster way to start things, despite the size, since loading from .lisp or .fasl has load-time effects that have to be processed 03:24:15 ignas: so would you agree that a key capability of dynamic languages is closure? 03:24:17 ignas: in fact, it also doesn't affect memory usage too much 03:24:27 yates: no 03:24:33 <_3b> really slow media loading different cores might decrease the advantage thuogh 03:24:46 closure is a feature of functional languages. haskell has closures and is definitely as not dynamic as you can get 03:25:13 _3b: i am comparing that to the C style stuff, though if you can consider the already loaded C stdlib, maybe C application has a 30 meg "core" too 03:25:18 right, core files are shared across lisp imstances... if they're the same core file 03:25:26 ignas: exactly 03:25:40 ignas: and the stdlib is not loaded in memory either 03:26:09 thanks 03:26:14 that is, parts that are not used are not loaded, the same way a core file works 03:26:18 for explaining that 03:27:06 <_3b> ignas: true, though most C binaries have multiple libs, so on some media, seek time might make overwhelm the actual lib size if they aren't already in cache 03:27:18 is C a functional language or an imperative language? 03:27:44 imperative with a little bit of functional capabilities 03:27:52 i think 03:28:00 but as you can see I am often wrong ;) 03:28:23 GCC has closures 03:28:26 if you were made wrong by rahul, i missed it - he's on ignore 03:28:30 but that's not standard C 03:28:56 _3b: right. I think I came up with a way to mmap the most important parts of fasl files in sbcl 03:29:09 oh - you mean _3b's comments? 03:29:37 yates, not a good idea, this channel is full of very intelligent people who are sometimes allergic to poorly put questions ;) 03:29:38 -!- seangrove [n=user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Success] 03:29:52 i'm allergic to verbal abuse 03:30:12 he's probably just "piggishly slow" in the head, like lisp 03:30:41 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:13 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:31:20 ignas: function pointers are usually not considered functional capabilities. usually closures are considered to be the basic FP feature 03:32:04 ignas: although inner classes and the command pattern give Java and C# closures, effectively 03:32:16 rahul, hmm, well - my definition of functional is "not OO" and "not imperative" so I consider ability to program in a mostly stateless fashion a functional capability 03:32:27 -!- jsoft [i=josh@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:32:28 then again, java's and C#'s classes are deranged closures themselves 03:32:30 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:32:41 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:12 <_3b> ignas: trying to make them exclusive sounds a bit much 03:33:15 ignas: well, that's purely functional as opposed to applicative. lisp is applicative, in that it has higher-order functions 03:33:23 <_3b> functional and OO work fine together for example 03:33:39 Have you guys used festival? It contains a mini-lisp inside it. I wonder what can be done with that 03:33:42 _3b: i am not making them exclusive 03:33:42 yes, polymorphism is a perfectly useful addition to functional languages 03:34:12 ignas: you said functional is "not procedural" and "not OO"... that's exclusion if I've seen it 03:34:13 _3b: as in - i am not talking about languages being exclusively functional, but rahter about features 03:34:28 ignas: there are a plethora of other categories 03:34:52 konr1: afaik it embeds some scheme 03:34:54 ignas: here's the thing: C functions can be made purely functional if written in a certain manner. so i don't see the distinction being so clear. 03:35:26 rahul, ahh, like what? i mean - to me imperative is about manipulating some "state" like assembler, where operations can't "return" stuff they can only take some state and put the result in another "global" 03:35:40 unless imperative is defined to be "not always perfectly functional"... 03:35:42 ignas: logical inference, relational (those two are partly related), concurrent, reactive (related to functional), reflective, dynamic, type-inferring, pattern-matching 03:36:06 ignas: I don't know if I'd make imperative that restrictive 03:36:34 ignas: I'd say it's probably more about a sequence of actions rather than a set of formulas (which might be a good way to describe functional) 03:36:44 rahul, that kind of ruins my there is OO, functional, imperative, and logical (but no one uses it) world view ;) 03:36:46 and then relational would be a set of relationships 03:37:11 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:37:16 ignas: anything with a knowledgebase is going to be logical 03:37:39 to some extent, SQL is logical, except that its relational model is really weak 03:38:09 prolog has a stronger relational model, so it's able to express logical statements more cleanly 03:38:26 ignas: actually, compilers are logical programs, usually 03:38:41 is "reflection" the most significant capability of a dynamic language ? 03:38:48 they need to make inferences about data flow and types and control flow to perform optimizations 03:39:12 yates: not necessarily... a dynamic language doesn't always need to allow you to ask about the current state in detail 03:39:31 yates, i don't think in these kinds of abstart stuff ;) to me dynamic is - you can redefine all the classes and functions while your app is still running ;) 03:39:47 yates: dynamic means that it lets you redefine stuff... reflective means you can ask for meta information, like the arglist of a function 03:39:53 rahul, interesting, never thought of compilers like that 03:40:17 sounds reasonable/practical 03:40:25 ignas: type inference is explicitly a logical inference problem 03:40:29 skip all the formal bullshit 03:41:12 -!- konr1 is now known as altk 03:41:12 rahul, never tried to do type inference when I did the compiler class in the university ;) 03:41:17 pff 03:41:30 a quarter of our class was type inference :P 03:41:45 but that's probably because Corky Cartwright was teaching it 03:41:54 :) 03:42:10 unless that formal bullshit ends up being crucial... e.g., associativity and groups versus just addition. 03:42:41 (speaking in abstract/modern algebra terms) 03:44:46 -!- baddog [n=baddog@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:45:15 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:47:13 this reflective programming stuff scares me 03:47:20 self-modifying code... 03:47:34 yates: it's not SELF-modifying 03:48:02 what do you mean self-modifying? 03:48:04 what if it's executing on a compute platform that protects the code segments such that they're read-only? 03:48:05 you're modifying a data structure that refers to your code 03:48:24 yates: pointers are not protected 03:48:41 all you need to do is redirect the function pointer in the symbol object 03:49:07 i guess you can get around it by defining new modulesin new memory, discrading the old, and dynamically relinking or somesuch... 03:49:12 function objects are never modified 03:49:27 ignas: code that actually modifies itself. changes the opcodes in memory 03:49:30 yates: yes, it's 70's style dynamic linking 03:49:41 yates: as opposed to C's 60's style 03:49:54 yates, you don't have to do it if your function calls have indirection in them 03:49:57 when i was taking assembly way back, i saw some examples but i've since forgotten 03:50:13 it does not have to be so complicated 03:50:59 yates, read "lisp in small pieces" 03:51:23 ignas: you mean if you call throuh a function pointer? or something like a C++ virtual table? 03:51:49 both 03:51:58 both exist in lisp 03:52:40 yates, if you are still ignoring rahul, you will have to find the logs for the answer ;) I don't want to be your personal asbestos underpants ;) 03:52:54 irc logs 03:54:49 minion: logs 03:54:50 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 03:54:59 minion: read my mind... 03:55:00 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 03:55:15 minion: who is skywalker? 03:55:15 superman 03:57:43 ok, thanks ignas et al. 03:57:46 night 03:57:47 -!- yates [n=yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 04:00:11 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-75-207.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:02:01 -!- altk is now known as name-with- 04:02:25 -!- name-with- is now known as ^trange-S 04:03:46 minion, who is rahul? 04:03:46 bill clinton 04:04:59 common lisp channel having the bot that passes turing test time to time is a bit ironic ;) 04:08:05 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 04:09:21 poet [n=poet@unaffiliated/poet] has joined #lisp 04:09:29 didi [n=user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 04:09:49 how do i generate a list of the same character repeating a certain about of times? 04:09:50 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.191.67.98] has joined #lisp 04:09:58 is there a built in function? 04:10:41 list or array? 04:10:44 or string? 04:11:06 make-array has an :initial-element parameter 04:11:19 for example I have the string "a" and i want a list ("a" "a" "a" "a" "a") 04:11:21 (loop repeat n collect #\x) too 04:11:30 so does make-list 04:11:41 (make-list :initial-element #\x) 04:11:43 ah right, I had a feeling there was something nice for lists, too 04:11:56 ah make list 04:11:59 thanks 04:12:18 so if I then want to pass the result of make-list to a function 04:12:22 it needs to be a macro? 04:12:26 no 04:12:36 you can just put it in the function call 04:12:47 oh it will just get evaluated when the function is called 04:12:49 i.e., (process-list (make-list 5 :initial-element "a")) 04:13:13 yes, for functions, parameters are evaluated 04:13:36 what if I want to make a list of quoted symbols? 04:13:44 quoted? 04:13:56 quoted is a characteristic of code, not of objects 04:14:10 do you want a list of lists, the first element of which is the symobl QUOTE? 04:14:14 or a list of symbols? 04:14:23 doing something like (make-list 5 :initial-element 'a) will result in (A A A A A) 04:14:57 what are you trying to do with the symbols? 04:15:07 the quote stops evaluation, so the same rule that causes make-list to get evaluated as a parameter will cause a quoted :initial-element parameter to make-list to not evaluate the thing right after, but rather evaluate TO the thing right after 04:15:24 here's my code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/91974 04:15:25 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.250.254] has joined #lisp 04:15:35 the colon character used to introduce the initial-element parameter is another special kind of quote 04:15:48 -!- didi [n=user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:16:08 i want to be able to pass in a list of modes, a key on the keyboard and a function to bind that key to 04:16:09 poet: oh, elisp might not have make-list 04:16:10 pass #'function 04:16:17 ahh 04:16:25 this channel is about common lisp 04:16:36 #emacs is a better place to ask elisp specific stuff 04:16:39 or in emacs lisp, maybe just 'function, not sure 04:16:41 yeah sorry : / it's valid common lisp though 04:17:42 -!- bfein__ [n=bfein@pool-74-104-157-229.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 04:17:46 bfein__ [n=bfein@pool-74-104-157-229.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:52 poet: (mapcar '(lambda (x y) (do-something x "blah" y)) (list x1 x2 x3) (list y1 y2 y3)) 04:18:20 lambda means an anonymous function 04:18:44 you could also (mapcar #'(lambda (mode) (define-key mode key function) modes) 04:18:48 note that the '(lambda is not valid common lisp for a lambda... in CL, you do either (lambda or #'(lambda 04:19:23 yeah, whatever number of variable elements you have should be in the mapcar and the rest just literally in the lambda 04:19:57 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:20:13 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 04:21:17 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:41 -!- bfein__ [n=bfein@pool-74-104-157-229.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:22:28 konr` [n=user@201.82.128.190] has joined #lisp 04:22:59 bfein_ [n=bfein@pool-74-104-157-229.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:18 -!- konr` [n=user@201.82.128.190] has left #lisp 04:23:40 ahhh thats a much better way to do it, thanks guys 04:24:52 -!- ^trange-S [n=konrad@201.82.128.190] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:25:35 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:25:39 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:36 swathanthran [n=user@117.204.87.46] has joined #lisp 04:29:54 -!- redblue [n=star@ppp034.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:33:48 -!- hefner 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s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-160-164-77.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 06:10:02 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-164-77.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 06:11:05 I seem to be getting somewhat random (but repeatable for a given random occurance, until I restart my inferior lisp) problems with cffi complaining about unknown foreign types... sometimes it just works though. (I'm using cl-ncurses with cffi-uffi-compat.) The failure occurs while requiring the cl-ncurses package... the package is set up properly, and it worked fine when I had uffi installed. It also seems to randomly work fine.. 06:11:06 . Anyone know what could be going on? 06:11:49 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:12:00 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:01 Even after I directly compile the foreign type definition, it still fails. (Although one time when I did that it started working...) 06:12:06 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 06:12:32 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-223-113.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:06 hmm, now that I had it succeed once, everything is compiled, and just works repeatably now (as all it does is load things) 06:13:22 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:13:50 can anyone suggest a way to read a jpeg file (in CLISP)? 06:14:50 minion: cl-jpeg? 06:14:50 cl-jpeg: This is an alternative name for cljl, added for ASDF-Install. http://www.cliki.net/cl-jpeg 06:16:06 minion: stassats: thanks 06:16:06 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 06:16:11 -!- beach` is now known as beach 06:16:21 Good morning! 06:18:19 is there any standard, nice way to manage multiple projects in terms of pointing at different core images for slime to start with? 06:19:21 i use only one image 06:19:27 me too. 06:20:25 bfein_: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Multiple-Lisps.html#Multiple-Lisps 06:21:09 bfein_: Instead of multiple implementations of Lisp, you can have a single implementation with different .core files. 06:21:20 ah, nice 06:21:20 thanks 06:22:07 But I am not quite sure why you would want to deprive yourself of the functionality of one project, just because you are working on a different one. 06:22:14 I mean, that sounds so Unix-y. 06:23:55 i can imagine that if one uses ffi and crashes ever so often 06:24:08 *beach* doesn't use FFI. 06:24:10 beach: unless for some reason you are keeping separate sources for some dependencies and the image you load is also the environment of your project? (or stuff like crazy modifications or just testing the projects from slime) 06:24:33 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:24:38 I guess so. 06:24:53 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-131-240.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:56 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 06:26:25 fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:26:38 Condition USOCKET:ADDRESS-NOT-AVAILABLE-ERROR was signalled. 06:26:49 I am getting that for _every_ port that I try to bind 06:27:24 netstat -a shows I am using only two port so far, so I should have plenty of file descriptors available 06:27:40 fusss: have you checked for stale open ports? 06:28:16 -!- fatalnix [n=Fatalnix@spirit.ggxmain.com] has quit ["ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"] 06:28:26 p_l: huh? how? 06:29:09 not sure if netstat shows this, but I had problems binding to addresses if something was running there previously and didn't shutdown properly... 06:29:22 though it might be something worse, like a bug :P 06:29:41 hmmm 06:29:50 it's generates stock code, that's for sure 06:30:12 fatalnix [n=Fatalnix@spirit.ggxmain.com] has joined #lisp 06:30:21 the template has been tested throughly though; 6 months and > 10 deployed websites 06:31:06 Hello #lisp. Is there some lisp OCR thingie? 06:31:32 schme: afaik no 06:31:45 schme: In Lisp? Not that I know, but I have some ideas if you want to work on one. 06:32:02 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:32:12 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:13 schme: if it's for important project and you need good OCR, I think FineReader had SDK that might be multiplatform 06:32:20 beach: I honestly wouldn't know where to start. Sounds interesting. I would like the functionality though. 06:32:21 schme: oh boy 06:32:28 fusss: yes? 06:32:29 schme: maybe 06:32:35 not with me 06:32:52 but a sydney startup is doing opencv + scheme 06:32:57 -!- fatalnix [n=Fatalnix@spirit.ggxmain.com] has left #lisp 06:32:59 i was with them yesterday 06:33:23 p_l: Is totally important. During the days I take a colossal amount of notes. And I would like to scan 'em in and have lisp objects created out of 'em so I can have it all pop up in McCLIM. with my lil drawings as images, and text as well.. text. 06:33:25 computer vision + image processing; 100% defense industry though 06:33:36 p_l: for easy searching and connecting stuff up to each other. 06:33:46 schme: Well, at some point, I would like to write an OCR system very different from existing ones, targeted to a totally different use case, namely where you need to process a very large text with very few errors. 06:33:49 fusss: That sounds pretty cool. But maybe overkill for me :) 06:33:55 schme: so it's not life and death, eh :-P 06:34:09 schme: i had to get frisked to talk to programmers 06:34:14 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.250.254] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:34:20 when i try to load "jpeg.lisp" from the cl-jpeg package, it gives the error EVAL: variable *Q-LUMINANCE* has no value. can anyone help? 06:34:26 fusss: it is beyond life and death! It's my notes :D 06:34:41 sadiquea: why are you trying to load "jpeg.lisp"? 06:34:43 fusss: wow. good thing you know where to hide the anthrax :) 06:34:43 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.250.254] has joined #lisp 06:34:46 sadiquea: you're loading the files in wrong order 06:35:05 beach: Are not current ones suited for that? How are you planning to make it 'error free' ? 06:35:08 minion: tell sadiquea about asdf 06:35:08 sadiquea: please see asdf: asdf is Another System Definition Facility. http://www.cliki.net/asdf 06:35:10 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:35:19 fuss: should i load "cl-jpeg.asd" first? 06:35:33 you shouldn't load anything 06:35:35 sadiquea: just like stassats said 06:36:05 sadiquea: (push #p"/path/to/cl-jpeg/with/trailing/slash/" asdf:*central-registry*) then 06:36:12 (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :cl-jpeg) 06:36:26 schme: I think current ones are targeted to a use case of a few pages where errors can be easily fixed by the user. But if you get (say) a 90% success rate, this means you have 200 or so errors per page. If you need to fix that in a 500 page document, you might as well use cheap labor to type the entire thing. 06:36:28 fuss: thanks 06:36:46 schme: The secret would be to use an interactive environment rather than a totally automatic one. 06:36:49 sadiquea: bon voyage! 06:36:50 beach: I think project gutenberg would love you :) 06:36:51 ;-) 06:37:01 schme: Possibly. 06:37:03 beach: Though I guess interactive would not quite work for them. 06:37:25 beach: How do you mean an interactive env? 06:37:36 project gutenberg uses distributed proofreaders, i proofread myself 30 or so pages there 06:37:59 stassats: Yeah my point is they're all scanned though. And if the OCR could be improved they'd be happy. 06:38:18 *schme* is aware of how the project works ;) 06:38:37 schme: I imagine the following scenario: The user points to different glyphs and informs the system that they are different/same. The system then finds similar ones, but only ones that are *very* similar. If the system cannot determine that a glyph is similiar it informs the user. 06:38:39 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:38:40 there's also recaptcha 06:38:57 it's all about recaptcha 06:39:02 crowdsource it 06:39:22 schme: there was an older OCR engine that got opensourced few years ago - if you want to ocr english text, running it as external program could sidestep big part of the problem 06:39:30 regotcha, more like it. could never solve that thing. 06:39:38 scans should be good too, i myself cannot decipher what was scanned sometimes 06:39:47 beach: and it would get trained over the text? 06:39:59 schme: Sort of, yes. 06:40:02 p_l: gocr? 06:40:22 schme: This has the advantage that the system need not know any fonts or languages a priori. 06:40:29 p_l: Uhm yeees.. now well yeah. I'm planning to look into something like that. Most my notes are in swedish, english, or my own lil notetaking language. 06:40:31 stassats: no, not GOCR. 06:40:37 CuneiForm then? 06:40:51 beach: I see I see. That could be interesting. :) 06:40:54 schme: You have your own language? 06:41:04 schme: Sort of like shorthand? 06:41:26 beach: Not so much my own language. It's just short symbols to signify things, and somewhat of a syntax for it. 06:41:34 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 06:41:45 It's just for my notetaking and getting ideas onto paper. 06:41:50 schme: And this is something you use when you write by hand or when you type? 06:41:57 by hand. 06:42:01 I see. 06:42:14 stassats: tesseract (which despite being left to bitrot for 10 years was better at english than GOCR when it was opensourced) and it's google-sponsored continuation, ocropus 06:42:33 I mostly write by hand. But I end up with a lot of papers with notes on 'em. And half the time I need to rip the paper in bits because they're on different topics, and sort 'em, and put away in the right place. 06:42:45 p_l: one can use several ocrs and then combine results 06:42:54 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-65.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 06:42:55 My idea now is to actually scan 'em all and have the text become well.. text, and the images stay as images. and have it all pop up in the mcclim. 06:43:09 would make searching a lot easier, and I could link stuff together. 06:43:17 schme: Sounds like a good plan. Scanning would be the first step. 06:43:19 also, ocropus apparently supports pluggable layout engines, so it can adapt for example to scanning a book as a whole thing 06:43:27 beach: Indeed :) 06:43:28 schme: sounds like science fiction 06:43:42 stassats: Sounds like LISP ;) 06:44:03 It shouldn't be overy complex I hope (: 06:44:51 Even better would be if I could have it turn my recorded audio notes into text, for easy searching. eheheh. But one step at a time. 06:45:03 beach: So you're planning to write the whole OCR thing from scratch there? 06:45:32 schme: `planning' is perhaps too strong. I think about it from time to time. 06:45:55 I have no idea what algorithms are involved in OCR. 06:45:58 schme: I suggested it as a student project this year, but no group took it. 06:46:25 I wonder if anyone made arabic OCR. 06:46:35 schme: I was planning to use simple correlation, i.e., after the operator shows example glyphs, the system would search for places in the document with very high correlation. 06:46:40 *stassats* once wrote ASCII-CR 06:47:01 by using the very same process beach described 06:47:05 schme: With that system, you can process anything, Arabic, Chinese, etc. 06:47:15 Interesting. 06:47:36 Plus, you wouldn't need to feed it any fonts a priori. 06:47:44 I think I'll start with using some 'external' software :) 06:47:45 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.191.67.98] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:47:59 beach: this is a good bonus. I was not aware you normally had to feed it fonts. 06:48:51 probably one can feed it project gutenberg to train it 06:48:51 i wrote an ocr for malayalam while in college 06:48:53 schme: I might have that wrong. 06:49:32 *schme* finds the book "Optical Character Recognition". Buy button is so easy to hit... 06:49:42 oh 06:49:45 $162 06:49:50 buy button slowly fading away. 06:50:25 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.191.67.98] has joined #lisp 06:50:27 heh 06:51:28 *fusss* scp -r's yet another hunchentoot package where the handlers have names ending .php, for the sake of google juice and url backward compatibility 06:55:18 Lycurgus [n=Ren@pool-71-186-178-123.bflony.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:26 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.21.83] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:56:10 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:58:50 .. I can understood backward compatibility but why "google juice"? 07:00:24 be careful. don't drink the kool-aid when you go to google's offices 07:03:30 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 07:04:26 which would be that they're "not evil" 07:04:58 kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:58 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:06:24 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:08:23 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:44 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 07:12:34 balooga1 [n=00u4440@adsl-76-255-196-121.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:23 Kolyan [n=nartamon@93-81-154-121.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 07:16:48 jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-94-9.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:18:12 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:19:53 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:22:00 -!- fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:23:22 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:23:54 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:54 *p_l* once entered their (Google's) recrutation database 07:28:10 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-76-255-196-121.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:28:15 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 07:29:44 YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:32:05 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 07:38:45 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 07:39:12 sky_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-242-065.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:40 -!- sky_ is now known as lpolzer 07:39:52 *beach* can't believe he is attempting to install clbuild on sparc/solaris. 07:41:05 step 1: install GNU make, so that SBCL can be installed. Step 2, install the Haskell compiler so that darcs can be installed from source. ... 07:42:50 I might give up and just install SLIME without going through clbuild. 07:45:11 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 07:45:46 -!- slotsirar [n=user@91.190.137.236] has left #lisp 07:47:49 <_3b> beach: you could run clbuild on another system and copy the results over 07:48:01 -!- YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:48:51 YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:50:37 _3b: Ah, that's an idea. 07:53:10 -!- Intensity [i=[hNdzLhl@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:54:57 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:54:58 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:56:22 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 07:57:07 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.191.32] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:58:03 -!- kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:58:20 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:33 I just had catastrophic SBCL death 07:58:39 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 07:58:55 Intensity [i=[113Kiu9@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 07:59:14 I ran the tests, and the test for concurrent hash table access went haywire and swapped a couple of GB, so I gave it a SIGKILL. 07:59:16 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.111.234] has joined #lisp 07:59:20 all other tests passed. 08:00:21 this was SBCL 1.0.33, on Linux x86-64 08:14:50 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.111.234] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:19:57 -!- YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:20:57 -!- shrughes [n=shrughes@c-65-96-172-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.5/20091109125225]"] 08:26:30 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.195.126] has joined #lisp 08:31:07 -!- m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 08:32:31 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.111.234] has joined #lisp 08:35:33 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:40:59 _3b: Success! 08:41:07 _3b: Thanks for suggesting that. 08:42:25 plage [i=strandh@tanit.enseirb.fr] has joined #lisp 08:42:42 -!- plage [i=strandh@tanit.enseirb.fr] has left #lisp 08:42:44 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d86-33-115-65.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:43:29 beach: it might be possible to cross-compile darcs 08:44:07 p_l: possibly, but what _3b suggested was easier and it works. 08:44:22 beach: sure, just in case you ever need a native binary :) 08:47:29 after all, GHC can generate C code 08:49:01 kwinz3 [i=kwinz@securewlan-236-227.pns.univie.ac.at] has joined #lisp 08:50:20 nha [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:51:20 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:20 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:53:03 kwinz3_ [n=kwinz@213162066161.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 08:54:02 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.191.67.98] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:54:21 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:56:29 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:59:44 -!- bfein_ [n=bfein@pool-74-104-157-229.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:05:35 milanj [n=milan@cable-89-216-148-30.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 09:05:40 pjb [n=t@33.Red-88-30-127.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:06:03 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-113-185.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 09:08:30 hello hefner! Still in Thailand I see. 09:08:38 -!- kwinz3 [i=kwinz@securewlan-236-227.pns.univie.ac.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:09:15 yeah, I'm going to hang out here for a while, get some hacking done 09:09:44 What are you hacking on these days? 09:10:10 prxq [n=mommer@78.52.121.65] has joined #lisp 09:12:53 In a fit of temporary insanity, I decided I'd write a game in lisp and attempt to sell it. In the likely event that no one buys it and I make no money, at least I'll have learned something and gotten it out of my system. (I'll also have accumulated some reasonable infrastructure for building other things) 09:13:34 <_3b> sounds like fun :) 09:13:36 hefner: Sounds like a nice project! 09:14:09 I'm having fun with it. 09:14:11 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 09:14:50 *_3b* is almost ready to start writing flash games in lisp, to try to make money off ads :) 09:14:51 hefner: possibly a game requiring some game AI? 09:15:40 pjb: It's a strategy game, so it will need an AI, yeah. I'm looking forward to that bit. 09:15:49 hefner: sounds like what dto has been doing 09:16:25 sure, yeah. 09:19:15 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 09:19:25 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has quit [No route to host] 09:22:17 -!- kwinz3_ [n=kwinz@213162066161.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:25:48 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.191.67.98] has joined #lisp 09:32:51 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f755639.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:55 -!- balooga1 [n=00u4440@adsl-76-255-196-121.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:39:54 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:40:46 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 09:42:45 kwinz3_ [n=kwinz@213162066164.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 09:43:58 hefner: RTS ? 09:44:22 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:44:24 Is there some list of what image formats mcclim supports? 09:44:27 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:47 nah, turn based. I thought about making the combat real time, but it would make multiplayer harder to implement, and I don't think it'd add much. 09:45:12 (If I do multiplayer, anyway. I wasn't going to, but I've changed my mind a few times already) 09:45:47 multiplayer seems to be the route for a lot of the linux strategy games. I think it is because of all the work with making a good AI + good story to have you keep playing the game :) 09:45:48 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-4-82.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:46:05 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:46:43 (loop for key being the hash-key in climi::*bitmap-file-readers* collect key) => (:PIXMAP :PIXMAP-3 :XPM) 09:47:05 stassats: I know it also supports gif and the jpeg. 09:47:14 you need to load it first, right 09:47:18 right. 09:47:23 you have to load systems for those, because they have some extra deps 09:47:24 I was hoping for pnm or tiff or something. 09:47:26 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-8-252.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:47:29 ah. 09:47:37 (because that is what scanimage gives me) 09:48:03 *schme* waits for the obvious "well write it yerself" :) 09:48:22 it can read tiff 09:48:23 arr! 09:48:29 hoh cools. 09:48:58 oh there is a tiff.lisp :D 09:49:14 no, you need mcclim-tiff-bitmaps.asd 09:49:20 yeah 09:49:47 *schme* looks for what the heck :retrospectiff is then 09:50:52 hrrm. all links to it seem dead. 09:50:53 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-15-63.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:52:14 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-4-82.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:53:01 anyone got this retrospectiff library? 09:55:06 i guess slyrus has it 09:55:08 -!- redblue [n=star@ppp042.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 09:57:24 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 09:57:38 slyrus: Do you have some retrospectiff for me? 09:58:00 ppm seems easy enough to parse I guess. 10:00:52 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:01:21 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:01:42 the whole point of the ppm/pnm etc formats are easy parsing :) 10:02:09 Excellent. 10:02:21 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:02:29 beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-12-109.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:03:12 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:03:22 *schme* can avoid the FFI then. horray. 10:03:43 -!- beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-15-63.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:03:44 I think there's a PNM parser in mcclim/Backends/CLX/image.lisp, but it isn't integrated with the more recent bitmaps interface 10:04:00 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:04:00 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-139-183.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:04:39 oh yeah. there does seem to be a lot of PNM stuff in there. 10:06:49 Maybe this should be integrated with the bitmap reader thingies? 10:06:56 absolutely 10:07:05 beach```` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-60-28.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:07:32 *schme* makes a note. That seems like a pleasently low fruit to pick from the tree of mcclim :) 10:08:34 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-30-137-210.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:15:53 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:15:57 -!- milanj [n=milan@cable-89-216-148-30.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:17:16 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:18:42 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-6-101.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:19:48 schme: if you could drop in X pixmap from C library, I recommend imlib. Not to say that pure lisp solution is bad, just that imlib2 is nice and fast :> 10:19:49 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 10:21:08 p_l: I guess I could just use the mcclim pixmap reader then though? 10:21:41 p_l: supposedly I can do whatever I want. but scanimage spits tiff or ppm for me. So that's what I'm going with, to save me a round of conversion. 10:21:53 mstevens [n=mstevens@81.2.103.23] has joined #lisp 10:22:54 -!- beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-12-109.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:27:35 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@66.112.249.238] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:27:50 -!- beach```` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-60-28.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:27:57 cyberhuman [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:32:09 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 10:33:52 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:37:32 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:32 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:39:16 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.173] has joined #lisp 10:43:57 schme: imlib unfortunately definitely favors applications built with C xlib, as it can spew prepared pixmap directly to memory... 10:44:25 p_l: I see. 10:44:31 yohan [n=lab@adsl-074-182-100-076.sip.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:32 p_l: Good thing I don't plan to use it then, eh? 10:44:47 How do I quote a string with spaces... for example how would I do 'John Doe 10:44:58 that's not a string 10:44:58 yohan: |John Doe| 10:45:07 oh good call 10:45:34 "John Doe" is a string, '|John Doe| is a symbol 10:45:37 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:49 you, most definitely, want the former 10:45:56 Thanks 10:46:08 -!- yohan [n=lab@adsl-074-182-100-076.sip.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:47:32 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.191.67.98] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:47:58 *p_l* just noticed that he can name a variable | | 10:48:49 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 10:49:02 alexbobp [n=alex@66.112.249.238] has joined #lisp 10:49:25 even || is possible as I recall. 10:49:36 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:49:56 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:19 -!- cyberhuman1 [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:53:02 ejs [n=eugen@17-94-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:23 only sane thing is to make a whole lil' program with nothing but || | | | | | | etc. 10:54:41 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 10:55:46 milanj [n=milan@91.148.66.116] has joined #lisp 10:56:07 automate the transformation, call it a lisp obfuscator 10:56:17 That would be cute. 10:57:26 with || package for ||ed CL 10:57:37 better yet, number all the symbols then express them in binary using ( and ) for digits, so you'd have a program of |(()(()|-looking symbols 10:58:04 *Adlai* now has ||::|| 10:58:47 *stassats`* too 10:59:49 (write-to-string '||::|| :escape nil) => "" 11:00:05 this could make for fun debugging sessions 11:00:47 (princ-to-string '||::||) 11:05:04 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 11:05:09 schoppen2auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:07:11 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-136-52-94.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:08:49 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.191.67.98] has joined #lisp 11:09:59 -!- nipra [n=nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:11:17 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-30-137-210.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:11:54 schoppen3auer [n=css@host159.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:13:28 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-27-196-228.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:14:28 Who wants to write a complete parser for email messages for me? 11:16:40 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6F579.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:10 -!- schoppen2auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:17:38 beach: Complete? I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you... 11:18:11 I feared reactions like that. 11:18:14 How much is there to parse in email? 11:18:25 (did I just ask something dumb?) 11:18:49 schme: The header (addresses, etc), the charset field, mime parts, etc. 11:18:52 schme check the MIME format 11:18:56 schme: kinda. Have you seen the regex to parse address? 11:19:37 I'm lookin' here at MAKE-PATTERN, and if I am to understand this correctly the array I hand it is for... niceties. and I can safely just hand it one full of zeros? 11:19:46 p_l: yes. 11:19:51 Guthur: I don't wanna ): 11:20:06 schme: i don't blame you, hehe 11:20:08 or maybe it should be 1's 11:20:14 Now, if one were to write such a thing, would one use regular expressions and (say) cl-ppcre, or pars it "manually"? 11:20:24 schme: are you talking about the patterns array? if so, is there not a make-rgb-design or something? 11:20:34 hefner: hoh maybe there is :) 11:20:39 (not in the spec, but in clim-extensions) 11:20:48 aha 11:21:27 ziga` [n=user@BSN-61-57-110.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:31 now that simplified life. 11:23:47 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:24:46 I'll repeat my claim that the old make-pattern API could be brought into the mid-90s by using that argument for an object describing the format of the image array in the case of non-indexed images, and that this is a logical and elegant thing to do. 11:25:54 -!- schoppen3auer [n=css@host159.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 11:26:58 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 11:28:29 -!- kwinz3_ [n=kwinz@213162066164.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:29:44 What is the good way to do something like tmpnam? 11:30:39 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:39 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:31:49 hefner pasted "Obfuscated Idiocy" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91979 11:33:05 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 11:33:58 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-4-230.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 11:34:04 hahaha 11:34:33 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 11:35:01 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:35:38 hefner, when you have to "obfuscate" a symbol in the CL package, use the trick of indexing into a sorted list of external symbols from :CL, at read-time. 11:36:40 ooh, I could do better than that. 11:37:29 that's certainly the spirit. 11:37:37 judicious use of read macros could help here 11:37:50 (unless you count that "cheating") 11:38:07 I'm not sure if it's cheating, but I like the fact that it produces valid CL code 11:38:45 without nonstandard reader macros, that is. 11:40:01 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:40:12 djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 11:42:03 It is also highly useful. 11:42:19 billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-67-158-165-189.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:30 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:45:49 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 11:45:52 -!- joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:46:31 -!- Dodek_ is now known as Dodek 11:46:39 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-27-196-228.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:46:41 fiveop [n=fiveop@e179163017.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:47:16 hrrm.. ok osicat:with-temporary-file was not helpful either. 11:52:37 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 11:53:20 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:02 -!- milanj [n=milan@91.148.66.116] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:54:03 -!- swathanthran [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:55:54 nipra [n=nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 11:57:52 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.245.136] has quit ["leaving"] 11:58:36 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@81.2.103.23] has quit [] 11:59:16 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.245.136] has joined #lisp 12:00:52 hefner annotated #91979 "More obfuscated idiocy" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91979#1 12:07:51 my browser lags trying to scroll that code block 12:08:10 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.250.254] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:09:11 hefner_ [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-83-221.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 12:09:54 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 12:10:52 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.182.148] has joined #lisp 12:11:52 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:12:45 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:04 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 12:13:27 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-113-185.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:13:31 -!- hefner_ is now known as hefner 12:14:32 -!- ve [n=a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:14:57 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 12:15:50 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@83.163.41.120] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:16:14 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 12:16:37 Plamen [n=pkfrey@84-74-151-253.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 12:17:18 demmeln [n=Adium@p5B0C413C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:22 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.173] has quit ["so long.."] 12:22:35 -!- ejs [n=eugen@17-94-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:23:37 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:23:40 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:54 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:32:25 wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d81896d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:29 milanj [n=milan@91.148.66.116] has joined #lisp 12:32:30 hefner: was just reading backscroll... you should join #lispgames! 12:32:31 hiho guys 12:32:47 -!- konr [n=user@201.82.128.190] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:33:27 how do I get the contents of a simple text file into a string? 12:33:46 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:46 clhs read-sequence 12:33:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_seq.htm 12:33:47 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.10.11] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:34:06 hmm infact I tried read-sequence 12:34:28 and what problems did you encounter? 12:35:52 well I tried to return the sequence written to, but it does not appear to be a string 12:36:26 (with-open-file (stream file) (let ((string (make-string (file-length stream)))) (read-sequence string stream) string)) 12:37:57 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:37:57 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@p5B0C413C.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 12:38:11 though it doesn't really work with multibyte characters on many lisps 12:38:20 works for me 12:38:22 thanks 12:38:40 how do i get a conditional statement that doesn't return nil when unsatisfied 12:38:45 make-string is what I was missing 12:39:29 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:39:38 (with-open-file (stream file) (with-output-to-string (string) (loop for line = (read-line stream nil) while line do (write-line line string)))) would work on multibyte characters too 12:40:24 -!- Posterdati [n=angel@host66-208-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:41:10 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:41:19 it's slightly wrong, inserts a trailing newline even if there's none 12:41:58 thats alright for my purposes 12:42:40 Adlai: did you bisect yesterday? 12:42:44 tcr, memo from Adlai: I scripted the bisection, so I didn't supervise it all the way. It seems to have finished successfully. Script, log, and result are annotated to http://paste.lisp.org/display/91962 12:42:57 Ah cool 12:43:49 Guthur: "unless" 12:43:51 ? 12:45:04 tcr, I limited the bisection to the src/code/pprint.lisp function... was that ok? 12:45:28 dto still returns gives 12:45:33 gives/nil 12:45:36 Guthur: Wrap it in a NOT? 12:45:41 what do you want it to return? 12:45:45 when unsatisfied 12:45:49 dto nothing 12:46:01 stassats pasted "fwiw, the proper version" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91980 12:46:07 (if condition foo (values)) 12:46:15 wakeup: that's the proper version 12:46:17 its in a macro, to construct a list where nil will be an erro 12:46:19 error 12:46:38 dto tried values 12:46:49 for you could (delete nil mylist) before it's used 12:47:18 i don't know, i can't see the macro. is it huge? 12:47:25 i think there may be a plan b 12:47:45 Probably better. 12:48:14 (if condition consequence t) ? 12:49:07 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-164-77.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:49:53 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 12:50:54 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-94-9.iburst.co.za] has quit ["Probably back later."] 12:50:58 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 12:50:59 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:51:26 i was conditionally setting the size parameter on a cffi:defcstruct 12:51:47 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:51:48 i think looking at the code i might be able to just pass nil 12:51:55 the cffi code that is 12:52:27 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:53:08 Adlai: Yes, perfect, I know the reason. and now I'm not sure it's actually a bug. I'm composing a mail to sbcl-devel right now. 12:54:22 how can I make with-open-file return NIL when specified file does not exist? 12:54:44 :if-does-not-exist nil 12:54:45 clhs with-open-file 12:54:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_open.htm 12:54:53 clhs open 12:54:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_open.htm 12:54:54 rather 12:55:00 this does not work for me 12:55:01 stassats`, true 12:55:17 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-69-183.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:55:25 (with-open-file (stream "foo" :if-does-not-exist nil) t) 12:55:41 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 12:55:45 returns T even though foo does not exist 12:56:29 (with-open-file (stream "foo" :if-does-not-exist nil) (when (streamp stream) t)) 12:56:48 okay 12:57:16 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:58:55 s0ber [n=s0ber@114-45-235-219.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:59:07 hmm 12:59:25 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@114-45-235-219.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:01:19 s0ber [n=s0ber@114-45-235-129.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:20 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32E2FD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:50 p0a [n=user@athedsl-375232.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 13:04:57 Hello 13:05:08 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit ["hardware upgrade time .. bbl. \o/"] 13:05:49 I'm using emacs and slime, slime tab-completes but lisp-mode does not, anything I can do about that? 13:06:14 p0a: in lisp-mode, TAB indents the current line 13:06:22 M-TAB should complete, though 13:06:39 or M-C-i 13:06:55 which is the same thing (at least on the console) (: 13:07:03 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 13:07:08 thanks! 13:07:39 M-tab is often shadowed by the WM 13:07:39 what would be the preferrable way to change these too? I complete much more often than I indent 13:07:45 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f755639.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:07:54 stassats`: my wm is pretty with bindings :-) 13:07:56 p0a: the usual way 13:08:04 elisp define-key 13:08:04 http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/elisp-manual/html_node/elisp_332.html#IDX1020 13:08:08 stassats`: right, I'll find that myself ;-) 13:08:14 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f755639.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:18 you saved me some time, ty 13:08:19 uh oh, 404 13:08:37 p0a: (define-key slime-mode-map [tab] 'slime-indent-and-complete-symbol) 13:08:53 tcr: [tab] literally? 13:09:09 *p0a* trues 13:09:17 p0a: this will make TAB indent the line if you're in the beginning of a line, but complete if non-whitespace is in front of the cursor 13:09:45 -!- Bobrobyn [n=rsmith05@guestlaptop-24.cis.uoguelph.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:09:46 It's sometimes annoying, but most often it does what I want 13:10:43 *stassats`* unconsciously hits C-M-i 13:10:56 it works in elisp too 13:11:13 hm I use M-/ there 13:11:25 hey M-/ works 13:11:35 M-/ is different 13:11:43 what's the difference? 13:12:16 it doesn't need slime to work 13:12:35 bleh, "Process inferior-lisp segmentation fault" 13:12:37 it just completes among all buffers 13:13:09 *Adlai* needs to be less aggressive with the stack 13:13:20 or just increase it? 13:13:25 How do I find the first element in a list that returns t for some -p function 13:13:37 clhs some 13:13:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm 13:13:51 what am i, just find-if 13:13:53 SOME is different 13:14:02 oh 13:14:04 prolog [n=user@81.215.193.18] has joined #lisp 13:14:31 stassats`, my debugging functions caused an infinite recursion :( 13:14:40 stassats' you should just replace clhs bot 13:15:04 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:33 p0a: there's also member-if 13:15:57 if you want to replace that element, member-if is you friend 13:16:41 OTOH, substitute-if takes a :count argument so you should probably take that one instead in that case :-) 13:16:41 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:16:51 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:31 (you can't easily know if something got substituted with substitute, though, so that case may be a use case for member-if) 13:18:22 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.182.148] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:18:31 -!- prolog [n=user@81.215.193.18] has left #lisp 13:18:46 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.245.136] has quit ["leaving"] 13:19:07 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.245.136] has joined #lisp 13:21:44 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:17 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:26:24 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [] 13:26:32 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:10 kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:26 kejsaren3 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:37 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:29:13 prolog [n=user@81.215.193.18] has joined #lisp 13:31:22 -!- prolog [n=user@81.215.193.18] has left #lisp 13:36:46 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:40:49 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 13:41:48 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:41:59 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:42:24 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-30-194-156.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:44:16 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@pool-71-186-178-123.bflony.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:46:58 i have a macro that creates two expressions; a class and cffi cstruct, unless i use eval on each individually it only seems to eval the last expression 13:47:06 is eval the only way 13:47:15 <_3b> macros only return 1 form 13:47:30 <_3b> it is common for that form to be (PROGN ...) though 13:48:05 ah progn 13:48:17 that's probably what i'm looking for 13:48:27 _3b: cheers 13:51:42 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-74-227.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:53:05 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-74-227.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:53:40 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:54:13 pavelludiq_ [n=quassel@91.139.195.126] has joined #lisp 13:55:24 -!- Plamen [n=pkfrey@84-74-151-253.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:55:26 that didn't seem to cut it 13:55:52 Guthur pasted "Structing macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91983 13:56:01 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.195.126] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:56:27 Guthur: wtf? Why are you calling eval in a macro? Just return `(progn ,form1 ,form2). 13:56:40 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:56 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:08 and use INTERN to create a keyword. 13:57:17 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:57:55 pkhuong the naming is usually al messed up with intern 13:58:18 How does it get messed up? 13:58:25 would it not end up as |symbol| 13:58:31 upcase it (: 13:58:46 does that avoid the pipes 13:58:52 yes. 13:58:56 ah 13:59:07 thanks schme 13:59:28 sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:35 Normally your reader upcases everything. But to lisp there is a difference between SYMBOL and symbol. And to preserve case and other stuff you |symbol| 13:59:45 or |s yM Bo L| 14:00:00 YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:00:07 cool, the read eval was a last resort 14:00:43 (: 14:00:54 Now you must burn this piece of code. 14:01:26 hehe 14:01:37 its not finished yet 14:02:08 i don't want to have create those structs by hand everytime i want a vertex 14:03:00 then there is a copy method required as well, and the buffer pointers 14:03:19 all tied to the same structure 14:04:03 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-83-221.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:04:42 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:06:08 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 14:07:54 Plamen [n=pkfrey@84-74-151-253.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:09:45 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:09:57 kpreid 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[n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:17 kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:36 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.191.67.98] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:14:24 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:14:50 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:15:20 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:15:20 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 14:17:17 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:17:17 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:17:26 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 14:17:51 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-69-183.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 14:18:13 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:16 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:18:23 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.255.210] has joined #lisp 14:18:34 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:20:37 ah it was a backquote progn i want, cheers pkhuong 14:23:23 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:24:02 -!- pavelludiq_ [n=quassel@91.139.195.126] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:27:36 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:27:41 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:28:07 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-93958.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 14:28:20 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:29:44 -!- nipra [n=nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:30:02 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-49-25.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:32:16 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-88-47.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 14:32:18 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-30-194-156.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:32:53 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-27-26-196.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:34:57 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:42 nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-161-71-17.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:49 G'morning all. 14:36:19 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.195.126] has joined #lisp 14:36:29 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.245.136] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:38:32 fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 14:38:37 -!- fusss [n=fusss@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has left #lisp 14:42:38 davazp [n=user@183.Red-88-1-96.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:31 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:44:35 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 14:44:52 chylli [n=lchangyi@123.132.76.153] has joined #lisp 14:50:02 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:52:22 nyef: hi 14:52:40 confounds [n=confound@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:52:56 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:55:47 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 14:56:34 -!- Plamen [n=pkfrey@84-74-151-253.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:00:07 -!- prip_ is now known as prip 15:01:29 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:01:38 o/ 15:01:46 MaxL3 [n=MaxL@75-149-44-10-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:03 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:03:05 kpreid___ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:06 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:10 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:38 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:03:40 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 15:03:50 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:04:16 hello nikodemus 15:04:20 hello nyef 15:04:30 -!- MaxL3 [n=MaxL@75-149-44-10-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:04:41 Xof: is it too late to join the monday dinner crowd? 15:05:01 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 15:05:24 jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-31-252-210.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:05:28 hi beach 15:05:33 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-27-26-196.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:07:49 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 15:08:43 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 15:08:58 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.208.200] has joined #lisp 15:09:49 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:09:53 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A3251.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:12:10 Is there some portability layer for RUN-PROGRAM and what not? 15:12:19 compatibility maybe it is called 15:13:32 kejsaren3 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:45 kejsaren4 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:17 -!- kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:17:31 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:18:25 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:42 kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:53 konr [n=user@201.82.128.190] has joined #lisp 15:20:51 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 15:21:16 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-12-193.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:21:46 *nyef* is looking forward to the sbcl10 blog entries that are sure to appear over the next week. 15:23:39 -!- chylli [n=lchangyi@123.132.76.153] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:28:23 bfein_ [n=bfein@pool-74-104-157-229.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:25 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:28:26 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 15:28:43 -!- milanj [n=milan@91.148.66.116] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:28:44 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:29:12 milanj [n=milan@91.148.66.116] has joined #lisp 15:29:47 i have a macro that is creating definitions for structs and a method, the struct definitions are being interned in the called from package, but the method seems to get intern in the package where the macro exists 15:30:13 what does your macro look like? 15:30:22 nasty, hehe 15:30:30 paste? 15:30:33 -!- kejsaren3 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:30:33 -!- kejsaren4 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:30:48 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 15:30:54 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-4-230.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:31:09 ok, its a little experimental at the moment, so it might give you nightmares, 2 secs 15:31:13 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:32:19 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-31-252-210.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:33:13 Meh. If it's only using a single level of quasiquote and doesn't recurse it's not likely to cause nightmares. 15:34:06 quasiquote? 15:34:16 ` 15:34:27 ah, I call that backquote 15:34:31 nyef: last macro he had 3xEVAL. nightmarish enough? (: 15:34:35 Yes, that's the other name for it. 15:34:50 schme: Okay, that's pretty bad. 15:34:57 Guthur pasted "Structing macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91985 15:35:04 At the same time, sometimes eval -is- the best option. 15:35:37 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:38 i'm going to change the pushing to appends which is a more natural way i think 15:35:45 no eval 15:35:50 ): 15:36:02 Guthur: when is the symbol copy-to-cffi created? 15:36:24 Ah, the leading-to-a-solution approach. I was just going to give the answer. 15:36:53 ah actually i just realise the defgeneric will probably be in le-project 15:37:08 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-135.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:21 is that what you mean pkhuong 15:37:25 nyef: I don't know where Guthur's mental model is broken, so I'm not sure that handing the fix out would be useful. 15:37:35 That's fair enough. 15:38:34 i can't see how its a broken model, the intention was quite obvious i though 15:38:39 though/thought 15:38:42 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:25 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-1-128.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:40:43 kejsaren3 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:33 Guthur: If your model wasn't broken or incomplete, would you be having enough trouble to cause you to come to us for help? 15:42:20 come to think of it, it probably is fine in le-project 15:42:23 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [] 15:43:07 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-26-255-105.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:43:46 the thing is if don't want to go round changing 3 definitions everytime i change the vertex format 15:43:56 if/i 15:45:33 Plamen [n=pkfrey@84-74-151-253.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:47:05 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:47:55 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:10 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 15:48:24 so I'm curious as to why thats happening... is it that he is using the symbol directly in the backquote, and when the backquoted form returns, the unevaled symbol is considered to be in the package the macro was in? I would have thought the returned symbol would be local to whatever package the form was returned to though, so maybe its something else? 15:48:49 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:50 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6F579.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 15:50:01 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:50:13 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["restart"] 15:50:14 -!- kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:51:09 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:50 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:52:02 bfein_: Backquote doesn't intern, it's purely a list-splicing operation. 15:52:04 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:52:12 i think its fine, i'll admit i hadn't fully considered the packaging, with the initial code the whole program was in one package, now i had envisage the package being used by another 15:52:57 bfein_: Any literal symbols in the backquoted form are read once, when the form itself is initially read, and thus will be interned with respect to the current package at that time. 15:53:26 thats what I thought... so why IS it being defined in the macro's package? 15:53:47 Umm... 15:54:02 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:54:04 Because it's read as part of the macro? 15:54:08 davazp` [n=user@183.Red-88-1-96.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:20 -!- davazp` [n=user@183.Red-88-1-96.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:54:26 oh, I misread your statement :) 15:55:11 so my initial guess was correct, and my model of how quoted things are read was wrong 15:55:53 -!- confounds [n=confound@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:56:09 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:09 -!- kpreid___ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:56:15 Apparently so. Which now allows you to improve your model. 15:56:42 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6F579.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:34 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:48 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:43 thats why i hang out here :) 15:59:51 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B047.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:05 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:00:08 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-92-48.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:03:15 so a possible improvement, to get it into the package calling the macro, would be to put the name in the lambda list and have the name default to 'copy-to-cffi, which would result in the default symbol being considered part of the caller's package, not the macro's package? 16:03:30 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-225-113.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:04:11 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 16:05:33 sugarshark [n=ole@p4FDA9A25.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:06:44 No, because macro parameter default values are only read once... 16:07:11 But you're getting closer. 16:07:40 There's no -implicit- method to do what you want, but there is an explicit method. 16:08:35 wait, so if I have something like (defmacro foo ((name 'bar)) ...) 16:08:43 bar is interned into the package the defmacro is in? 16:09:01 l_n [n=shawn@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has joined #lisp 16:09:03 I guess you could take the package of the caller as an argument 16:09:05 and intern into that 16:09:10 but that seems kind of kludgey... 16:09:18 to have to pass in your package 16:09:29 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 16:10:12 davazp` [n=user@183.Red-88-1-96.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:13 envi_home2 [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 16:10:23 -!- davazp [n=user@183.Red-88-1-96.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:11:23 -!- davazp` is now known as davazp 16:11:51 and I don't have a repl up to play around in right now... I'll have to play with this a little later 16:12:00 Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483B047.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:29 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B047.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:12:29 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-161-71-17.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:12:29 -!- YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:12:29 -!- eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-131-240.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:12:29 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:12:29 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d81896d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:12:29 -!- rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:12:29 -!- hicx174 [n=hicx174@123.108.171.227] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:12:29 -!- lharc [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:12:54 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6F579.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:13:09 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6F579.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:31 -!- kejsaren3 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:14:19 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:14:36 YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:14:50 rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:15:16 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:16:12 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B047.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:12 nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-161-71-17.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:12 wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d81896d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:12 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-131-240.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:12 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 16:16:12 hicx174 [n=hicx174@123.108.171.227] has joined #lisp 16:16:12 lharc [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 16:16:14 -!- eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-131-240.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Success] 16:16:50 would it not be possible to use *package* 16:17:04 its surely going to be the calling package, right? 16:18:04 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B047.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:18:26 ah, perhaps (intern (make-symbol "copy-to-cffi") *package*) if *package* is indeed the caller's package (which it should be, if my model is correct here) 16:18:41 that way, you don't get it interned in the macro's package as well 16:19:00 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:19:27 -!- cyberhuman [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:19:41 (you'd want to upcase the copy-to-cffi part) 16:19:58 wakeup^ [n=wakeup@koln-5d81896d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:42 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 16:20:47 Spaghett1ni [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:03 but having reviewed my 'mental model' somewhat i think its fine as le-project:copy-to-cffi 16:21:06 *nyef* points out that INTERN has defined behavior when passed a symbol, which may or may not be useful in this example. 16:21:21 the interned into the macro's package just threw me a little 16:21:41 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-6-101.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:21:59 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:22:12 ah, default is the current package already 16:22:15 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 16:22:23 rstandy`` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-120-152.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 16:23:27 so ((copy-method `(defmethod (intern "COPY-TO-CFFI") ((vertex ,vertex-name) pointer))) 16:23:40 nyef how can you pass a symbol to intern i thought it wanted strings 16:23:43 no need for make-symbol--intern wants a string. (I still haven't had my coffee) 16:24:07 If I want to make my won character macro like ' 16:24:30 '(foo) to be (quote foo) right? What about ':(foo) to be (list 'foo) and #:(1 2 3) to be (make-array ...) etc 16:24:45 -!- Plamen [n=pkfrey@84-74-151-253.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:24:45 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:24:45 -!- konr [n=user@201.82.128.190] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:24:45 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.255.210] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:24:45 -!- prip [n=_prip@host39-122-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:24:45 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:24:45 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@66.112.249.238] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:24:45 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-6-101.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:24:45 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-242-065.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:24:45 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:24:45 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:24:45 -!- qebab [i=finnrobi@caracal.stud.ntnu.no] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:24:45 -!- ignas [n=ignas@79.132.160.221] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:24:45 -!- avalanche^ [i=Honningm@60.81-166-31.customer.lyse.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:24:45 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host186.190-137-254.telecom.net.ar] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:24:45 -!- rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-120-152.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:24:45 -!- borism [n=boris@213-35-235-152-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:24:50 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.255.210] has joined #lisp 16:24:53 Plamen_ [n=pkfrey@84-74-151-253.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:24:57 alexbobp [n=alex@66.112.249.238] has joined #lisp 16:25:11 swathanthran [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has joined #lisp 16:25:29 qebab [i=finnrobi@caracal.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 16:25:49 Tordek [n=tordek@host186.190-137-254.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 16:25:52 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:26:36 konr [n=user@201.82.128.190] has joined #lisp 16:27:37 cyberhuman [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:27:40 djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:29:38 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-zrtrhkmoqsjngoin] has joined #lisp 16:30:39 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:30:52 lukas`` [n=lukas@80-219-169-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:32:24 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d81896d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:32:56 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-78-176.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:33:08 jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-27-91-170.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:34:01 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-26-255-105.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:34:49 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:35:07 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-kaaecdihpyqlsvea] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:35:08 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 16:38:27 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.21.83] has joined #lisp 16:38:58 NoNyM42 [n=NoNyM42@inguera.com] has joined #lisp 16:41:36 borism [n=boris@213-35-235-152-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 16:41:36 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:41:36 prip [n=_prip@host39-122-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:41:36 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-242-065.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:36 ignas [n=ignas@79.132.160.221] has joined #lisp 16:41:39 -!- l_n [n=shawn@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has quit ["foo"] 16:42:23 l_n [n=user@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has joined #lisp 16:45:19 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 16:45:55 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.195.126] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:46:01 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 16:48:40 -!- swathanthran [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has left #lisp 16:51:12 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 16:51:28 clhs intern 16:51:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm 16:52:04 Well, I stand corrected. Must have been thinking of IMPORT or EXPORT. 16:54:20 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 16:54:26 cyberhuman1 [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:54:42 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-83-221.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 16:55:30 -!- NoNyM42 [n=NoNyM42@inguera.com] has left #lisp 16:57:34 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:57:38 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 17:00:26 davazp` [n=user@1.Red-83-46-5.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:24 isomer`` [n=isomer@74.13.235.34] has joined #lisp 17:03:49 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:51 -!- cyberhuman [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:04:34 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-27-91-170.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:04:41 hello 17:04:56 jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-30-84-120.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:05:11 -!- milanj [n=milan@91.148.66.116] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:06:56 Hello fe[nl]ix. 17:07:00 hi nyef 17:07:16 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:07:57 lichtblau [n=user@83.218.158.166] has joined #lisp 17:09:07 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:09:12 -!- lichtblau [n=user@83.218.158.166] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:09:16 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:09:17 hey 17:10:33 lichtblau [n=user@83.218.158.166] has joined #lisp 17:13:38 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-182-157.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:13:38 -!- lichtblau [n=user@83.218.158.166] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:15:01 lichtblau [n=user@bob.askja.de] has joined #lisp 17:15:55 plage [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-6-101.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:15:59 Good evening! 17:16:20 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:22 -!- davazp [n=user@183.Red-88-1-96.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:16:26 kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:28 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:19:58 plage: Hello. 17:20:16 -!- sleepydog [n=david@136.244.235.163] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:18 I guess everyone is off getting ready for or travelling to sbcl10. 17:20:26 so. no plans to merge any of the competing patches to cffi-grovel to address deployment issues? 17:20:44 hefner: what patches ? 17:20:54 nyef: Oh, is that soon? 17:20:57 schoppenhauer_ [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:21:01 -!- schoppenhauer_ [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:21:07 fe[nl]ix: yours, from months ago, or john fremlin's 17:21:09 plage: It's on monday and tuesday. 17:21:16 returning to my struct macro; the input has become rather complex, (group-name (attribute-name type initform)) * n, any suggestions on how to help the user get the format right 17:21:27 kejsaren3 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:31 kejsaren4 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:40 nyef: That should be interesting. It's in London? 17:21:43 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-131-106.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:22:00 Yeah, at Goldsmiths. 17:22:01 group-name is a string identifier for a group of slots within the created structs 17:22:17 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:22:22 hefner: I merged my patches 4 months ago 17:22:25 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:22:39 hmm, I totally missed that. 17:23:06 nyef: Do we know of any Murkins going? 17:23:12 hefner: http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=cffi-cffi;a=summary 17:23:43 plage: foom and martin cracauer 17:23:58 oh opps it is actually (group-name ((attribute-name type initform)*n))*m 17:23:59 hefner: they may no be enough for your needs, but I had assumed that since nobody complained they were ok 17:24:00 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:23 jsnell: Great! Though Martin is not originally American as I recall. 17:24:51 no he isn't, but I think it still counts :-) 17:24:58 pkhuong is coming as well 17:25:13 -!- fihi09`` [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:25:16 right, but I'm not really american ;) 17:25:18 jsnell: Yeah, the question "where are you from" is always hard to answer. 17:26:44 plage: I'm from Earth 17:26:45 yeah, not sure if the original question should've been interpreted as "people currently residing in the us", "us citizens", "people flying across the pond" 17:28:00 jsnell: I think my original question was like your last suggestion. To how many people would this thing be so interesting that they would fly that far? 17:28:33 fe[nl]ix: Oh, good! Then it will cost you a lot less to come to Bordeaux than it otherwise would :) 17:29:12 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:29:14 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:30:20 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 17:30:54 plage: indeed. trips to mars are still expensive AFAIK 17:30:55 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:31:08 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:31:12 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-74-227.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:31:12 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:31:17 hefner: any questions ? 17:31:34 So, what do we expect to see as a result of sbcl10? 17:31:51 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 17:31:57 Interesting hacks, new directions for development, etc.? 17:32:05 nyef: drunkenness 17:32:08 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 17:32:09 sbcl 1.1? 17:32:09 -!- doom2quake_ [n=doom2qua@122.163.198.38] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:32:10 davazp`` [n=user@1.Red-83-46-5.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:19 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:32:44 doom2quake_ [n=doom2qua@122.163.198.38] has joined #lisp 17:32:59 fe[nl]ix: I haven't looked closely. Does it differ significantly from the patch I tested (if you can recall)? 17:33:33 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:33:36 balooga [n=00u4440@76.255.196.121] has joined #lisp 17:33:46 lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.252.81] has joined #lisp 17:33:59 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:34:22 snearch [n=olaf@e179141137.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:34:47 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:30 so when are people arriving in london? (I already did) 17:35:40 windows threading maybe, hehe 17:35:44 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:35:44 -!- kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:35:45 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1279405664.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:35:53 hefner: I can't remember what exactly you had tested 17:36:13 me neither, but it worked great. 17:37:01 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:05 ska [n=user@124.157.214.254] has joined #lisp 17:37:15 fe[nl]ix pasted "cffi-grovel wrapper library" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91989 17:37:25 Guthur: Yeah, right. I'm not sure anyone on the attendees list even uses windows on a regular basis. 17:37:37 relocatable cores! 17:38:05 hefner: #91989 is what we have now. you can query the loaded shared objects 17:38:06 hefner: That'd be nice. We already know it works, it's "just" a matter of disentangling the patches... 17:38:15 no point in adding threads when you can't even guarantee your app will start :) 17:38:32 fihi09``` [n=user@pool-96-224-166-196.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:36 cyberhuman [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:38:45 well starting apps should probably take priority 17:40:37 i was going to test my app on windows, but building all the libraries (not lispy ones) was such a pain it left me feeling rather cold 17:40:41 hefner: and since libraries are loaded by name, you can put them wherever the linker can find them(/usr/local/lib or set $LD_LIBRARY_PATH) 17:40:54 relocatable cores ftw! 17:41:10 dynamic allocation would be nice too :3 17:41:45 hefner: I have a half-baked C parser that should replace cffi wrappers. I'd be grateful if you had time to work on it :) 17:42:03 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:27 HG` [n=HG@xdsleu021.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:42:40 I'll claim I don't, and am in the early stages of a love affair with inline C anyway. 17:42:45 -!- cyberhuman1 [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:43:42 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151486.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:43:53 if only ECL could generate C code that didn't make its use as an intermediary seem comical.. 17:44:25 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-30-84-120.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:44:40 *nyef* has a half-baked idea for taking SBCL and hacking its compiler up to compile C code to object files instead of Lisp code to fasls. 17:44:41 (C code, with all the performance of a completely naive compiler! long, convoluted build cycles! horribly broken debugging! great!) 17:45:21 jsnell: i'm just booking my flight... 17:45:32 ouch 17:45:33 *nikodemus* is always on time with this stuff 17:45:43 -!- Plamen_ [n=pkfrey@84-74-151-253.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:45:44 where are you staying? 17:45:45 hefner: then help me out with this parser and you'll be able to use inline C with SBCL too 17:45:48 milanj [n=milan@91.148.66.116] has joined #lisp 17:45:49 hefner: and ditch ECL 17:46:24 nikodemus: a random hotel in kensington (base2stay) 17:46:46 fe[nl]ix: will I? does SBCL have a C compiler built in now? :) 17:47:02 jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-28-237-183.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:47:05 kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:09 hefner: no. the idea is to translate C to Lisp 17:47:35 [df] [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has joined #lisp 17:48:07 kejsaren5 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:41 -!- YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:49:00 -!- kejsaren4 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:49:08 sounds like fun, but it will have to wait until my clone army is complete. 17:49:14 -!- davazp` [n=user@1.Red-83-46-5.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:50:18 -!- milanj [n=milan@91.148.66.116] has quit [Client Quit] 17:51:47 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:51:47 -!- kejsaren3 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:52:06 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:52:18 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:52:53 InvisibleTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 17:55:12 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:59:59 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.252.81] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:00:07 n2kra [n=n2kra@pool-173-63-246-135.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:10 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:00:12 lemoinem [n=swoog@66.51.254.64] has joined #lisp 18:00:33 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:35 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:03 -!- fihi09``` [n=user@pool-96-224-166-196.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:02:32 Are there McCLIM or gsharp channels? looking at gsharp (is it panes?) what is ESA ? 18:02:46 Emacs-Style Application? 18:03:05 -!- isomer`` [n=isomer@74.13.235.34] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:03:06 n2kra: this is the mcclim channel (: 18:03:28 Hm. Food, maybe. It's been a good 9 hours. 18:04:20 tic: You should do this http://www.recepten.se/recept/tacopaj.html with the healthy pajdeg. 18:04:50 ESA proviveds the (Kbd) Macro menu and minibuffer ? 18:04:56 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:05:17 schme, sorry, I don't see any healthyness in there. ;-) Although, it was a good idea! 18:05:32 tic: Though I guess in your case you'd skip that part and just mix the kottfarsfyllning and the topping. 18:05:36 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:41 kejsaren3 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:09 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 18:06:25 schme, yap. grains is the work of the devil, see http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2009/12/this-is-your-brain-on-wheat.html . I made a kick-ass taco pie w/ rotsaker(?) instead of the crust. 18:06:33 *tic* sneaks out 18:06:35 maximizing the gsharp window, makes the i(nput) state note proportionally huge, I was looking to :max-size constrain it. 18:06:43 hahaha. grains evil. I love you carb haters. :D 18:07:02 :max-[width,height] 18:07:18 '(foo) is (quote foo) right? What about ':(foo) to be (list 'foo) and #:(1 2 3) to be (make-array ...) etc 18:07:21 schme, <3 18:07:22 how would I do that? 18:08:08 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdsleu021.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:08:29 p0a: I think you need to muck about with reader macros. 18:08:55 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-43-82-249-183-197.adsl.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 18:09:01 Plamen_ [n=pkfrey@194-158-251-71.static.adslpremium.ch] has joined #lisp 18:09:25 -!- l_n [n=user@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:09:28 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-43-82-249-183-197.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:58 p0a: #( already works 18:10:33 clhs #( 18:10:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhc.htm 18:11:01 clhs #nA 18:11:01 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for #nA. 18:11:03 clhs #A 18:11:03 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhl.htm 18:11:14 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-173-73-76-237.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:51 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 18:12:53 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:15:24 -!- kejsaren5 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:15:42 -!- kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:16:10 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-28-237-183.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:16:37 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:16:47 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:17:52 -!- davazp`` [n=user@1.Red-83-46-5.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:21:49 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:22:16 n2kra: This is a good place for Gsharp questions. 18:22:31 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 18:22:53 quodlibetor [n=user@12.130.118.6] has joined #lisp 18:23:28 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 18:23:28 n2kra: Yes, ESA provides minibuffer, M-x commands, kbd macros, commands like C-x C-c, C-x C-f, infrastructure for saving buffers before quitting, etc. 18:23:32 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:24:12 schme: kottfars? 18:24:23 schme: What happened to your charset? 18:24:48 plage: There's nothing wrong with it. I only have ascii on the slug though. 18:25:06 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Valete!"] 18:25:32 schme: It's easy, just do M-x set-input-method, give some interesting value, and you are in business. 18:25:47 plage: That would probably work if I was running emacs. 18:26:05 plage: There are a few reasons why I do not run IRC in emacs. 18:26:09 schme: I can't imagine what reason you would have to run anything else. 18:26:27 schme: For starters, you don't get different input methods. 18:26:46 plage: I run my IRC client on my local server here. And I ssh to it and just screen -r. it's very nice. So I can turn off the desktop computer. 18:26:52 schme: Then you don't get abbrevs, and perhaps not even a multi-lingual spell checker? 18:26:59 plage: So? 18:27:11 alternative is to leave the desktop machine running 24/7. Not really an option. 18:27:18 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:27:32 or run emacs in screen 18:27:51 guaqua: I have 32MB RAM. next option. 18:28:19 n2kra: please send a message to gsharp-devel about the problem you found. 18:28:23 what client do you run then? 18:28:34 guaqua: I run irssi. 18:28:44 But I terribly miss riece, that's for sure. It's really the best client around. 18:28:45 emacs is only eight-megabytes-and-constant-swapping, 32 MB should be enough 18:28:48 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.195.126] has joined #lisp 18:28:56 irssi with its 12 megabyte footprint? 18:29:28 guaqua: looks more like 6 to me. 18:29:38 interesting 18:30:18 Well I don't find it terribly interesting, but ok. 18:30:31 funny, emacs -nw -q takes really 8MB for me 18:30:36 its just that irssi is bloaty aswell 18:30:45 thought I would try poking around in the (clim-desktop) Listener 18:30:48 But unlike riece I can run it just fine. 18:31:10 n2kra: Sure, do that too. It's author is around here quite often. 18:31:54 falling back to source in a second ssh 18:32:09 I would consider running the emacs IRC if I could share buffers between my emacs session. But I'm having some issues with that, and I can't be bothered to fix it atm. 18:32:16 so is all good \o/ 18:32:37 I'm not convinced that inputting the multi-lingual would work anyhoo. 18:32:41 one option is to use a proxy 18:33:01 irssi-proxy, for example 18:33:11 irssi-proxy turned out a bit useless. 18:33:38 say I go away for a day or three. then connect to the proxy. it really doesn't display all the stuff I've missed. 18:33:58 i use irssi aswell, but i know some people who have irssi as a proxy and then emacs as a client to that proxy 18:34:00 n2kra: I see you have been coming here for a while, but you don't show up very often (or you use different nicks). 18:34:14 they run their emacsen all the time, though 18:34:16 also really. Why on earth would I want to have emacs running just to IRC. :) 18:35:24 because you love Emacs? 18:35:29 hahahaha 18:35:32 -!- envi_home2 [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:35:34 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:35:47 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:35:59 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:36:09 as soon as tic get vim up to SLIME standard I'll happily tell pacman to remove emacs. 18:36:21 schme: Er, so that you would have input methods, spell checking, and abbrevs? 18:36:31 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.195.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:36:44 schme: so, you're just not using slime enough 18:36:51 stassats`: ? 18:37:06 schme: So that others won't have to put up with things like "kottfars" :) 18:37:06 schme: otherwise you would love Emacs 18:37:09 is there somthing like a w3m channel ? 18:37:38 stassats`: I used to live in emacs. ran it as my wm too. I have a whole shitload of written elisp apps around. I don't like emacs at all. 18:37:43 n2kra: What made you interested in Gsharp? 18:38:12 plage: But kottfars is what you say irl ): 18:39:10 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@76.255.196.121] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:39:26 jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-25-234.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:39:26 plage: I'm installing some emacs now to see if the aao works. 18:39:34 schme: Well, you may be right. Each time I come back to Malmø, the language seems to have changed in some interesting way. 18:39:41 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:39:43 (: 18:39:57 -!- ska [n=user@124.157.214.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:40:09 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:40:17 I mix sound on the side. the wife asked me to enter some music -> .mid to practice 18:40:19 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:40:20 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:40:33 schme: Once I came back, Burlöv centrum was replaced by Burlöv centre. I fully expect next time for it to change to Cage Leaf Center. 18:40:50 plage: that's not even in malmoe :P 18:40:52 n2kra: An interesting! 18:41:06 schme: Close enough for someone from Bordeaux. 18:41:12 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:41:58 (: 18:42:40 n2kra: s/An/Ah/ 18:43:00 I'm just stuck on a (Win Xming) server that won't let me make the window bigger than the screen 18:43:03 *schme* waits some more for the emacs to download. 18:43:44 n2kra: Please feel free to hack on Gsharp if you see some improvements you would like to make. 18:43:58 So max score space would be nice, if it takes to long, I'll just continue entering music 18:44:01 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-43-82-249-183-197.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:44:24 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-35-82-250-199-239.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:43 n2kra: What do you mean by "max score space"? 18:46:45 *schme* waits for some emacs to load. 18:48:10 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:21 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:34 -!- quodlibetor [n=user@12.130.118.6] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:49:15 plage: See I fire up emacs and it don't really work with aao anyway. 18:49:52 schme: What is aao? 18:49:54 I hit a" and it seems to want to run ispell. a. "Query replace: " 18:49:57 the swedish letters! 18:50:04 a.a"o" :P 18:50:43 schme: I have no idea why that's a problem for you. 18:50:49 how do you X paste to McCLIM ? 18:51:09 Me neither. all I do is fire up an xterm. ssh over to my slug. emacs -nw and its like that. 18:51:29 schme: I have used åäö, and é, è, ç, etc for a very long time now. 18:51:30 n2kra: shift+some mouse key i don't remember 18:51:41 plage: Yes. it works fine on the desktop. 18:51:58 http://common-lisp.net/project/gsharp/clusters.png 18:52:37 n2kra: Not sure how to do X pastes. Might depend on the application. 18:52:46 the right 2 ?panes? get huge leaving little score space 18:53:19 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 18:53:25 kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:33 Oh, I have not done clusters yet, that is what the bottom right pane is for ! 18:54:29 shift middle click 18:54:30 n2kra: forget about it. It will probably disappear. 18:55:00 the paste worked, thanks 18:55:11 the URL I pasted 18:55:44 you are using beirc? 18:55:53 n2kra: I understand what you are saying about the panes, but I am unable to remember that until I am on a computer that allows me to check it in a more reasonable way, which is why I am asking you to send mail to gsharp-devel. 18:56:04 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:56:34 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.111.234] has quit ["be back later"] 18:57:07 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:57:46 I think I found in (clbuild) source/gsharp/gui.lisp 18:58:03 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-131-106.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:59:05 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-131-106.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:59:53 (define-application-frame gsharp... 19:00:06 -!- frontiers [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:00:25 n2kra: I could have told you that :) 19:00:28 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:00:46 nostoi [n=nostoi@219.Red-83-33-70.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:27 there is no :max-width, so on a big screen... 19:01:54 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:02:03 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 19:02:06 n2kra: I would think if you would adjust the max-width and max-height of the two panes you are referring to, probably in the default-layout section, you would fix your problem. 19:02:16 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:02:26 aintme [n=user@189.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:02:40 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:02:50 -!- kejsaren3 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:03:35 Wow, the combination of this new computer and the new version of Ubuntu, seems to give me more than 7h of battery time. In addition, I bought another battery, so I can work for the entire trip to Vietnam if I like. 19:04:35 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:04:53 quodlibetor [n=user@12.130.118.6] has joined #lisp 19:05:25 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:58 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:07:35 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 19:09:49 -!- InvisibleTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:10:19 isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE000f66256864-CM000f9fac8182.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:10:29 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:10:58 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:11:56 dnolen [n=dnolen@topp148-office-nyc.openplans.org] has joined #lisp 19:12:52 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:12:55 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 19:13:01 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.132.130] has joined #lisp 19:13:33 freiksenet1 [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 19:15:06 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@93-81-154-121.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:15:41 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:16:06 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-49-25.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 19:16:25 nick levine's lisp book looks to be focusing a lot on proprietary lisp stuff. 19:17:03 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:17:21 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:43 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:18:48 plage: are you sure? maybe it lies. 19:19:24 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 19:19:40 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:20:25 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:21:02 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 19:21:18 -!- freiksenet1 [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:22:39 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:22:44 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:45 gbt [n=gaz@91.110.191.173] has joined #lisp 19:23:18 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 19:25:16 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:39 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:25:54 lispm [n=joswig@e177120026.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:27:19 -!- isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE000f66256864-CM000f9fac8182.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:28:11 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:29:30 -!- gbt [n=gaz@91.110.191.173] has quit [Client Quit] 19:30:41 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:32:10 -!- kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:33:30 rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:36:07 jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-30-129-18.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:41:17 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:20 kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:56 Ralith_ [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 19:46:28 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:47:39 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-92-48.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:48:52 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:49:31 -!- quodlibetor [n=user@12.130.118.6] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:49:47 evening 19:50:10 -!- Ralith_ is now known as Ralith 19:51:20 o/ 19:51:21 quodlibetor [n=user@12.130.118.6] has joined #lisp 19:52:26 exciting, huh? I wonder what will go wrong 19:52:54 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 19:53:21 as long as you have whiteboards and people, not much :) 19:53:29 kejsaren3 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:52 oh? How about no internet? :-) 19:54:04 secondary 19:54:04 I suppose everyone will have a git checkout 19:54:12 exactly! 19:54:18 true, though, I should get some actual whiteboards and flipcharts 19:54:32 I'm usually happy drawing on the windows, but not everyone will share that 19:54:39 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 19:54:44 apropos: was my dinner confirmation hopelessly too late, or can i join the eating population? 19:54:59 drawing on windows sounds fine :) 19:55:03 What will go wrong? Some horrible security flaw in the OS kernel triggered by an incomplete SBCL hack in testing wiping out everyone's filesystem! 19:55:25 nyef: thinking about the strace strangeness? 19:55:39 nikodemus: you can eat. You should have a star by your name now 19:55:46 \o/ 19:55:56 Nah, just the phenomenal system load I get whenever the 63-bit fixnum hack in its latest incarnation blows up. 19:55:59 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:55:59 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:56:47 Take that, plus something that will destroy people's computers, and you get a filesystem-destruction scenario. 19:57:08 Krystof: do you have topics thought up beforehand? or something you'd like me to think about on plane, etc? 19:58:07 isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE000f66256864-CM000f9fac8182.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:58:12 http://sbcl10.sbcl.org/ 19:58:22 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:25 lot's of attendees 19:58:34 lots 19:58:42 well done! 19:58:55 thank you 19:59:01 there are a few unofficial attendees too 19:59:08 nikodemus: oh, good point, I should e-mail the list 19:59:15 hiding? ;-) 19:59:24 "come with at least an idea to hack on and an idea to talk about" 19:59:39 -!- isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE000f66256864-CM000f9fac8182.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:00:01 looks like fun two days, I wish you guys a successful workshop 20:00:04 thanks 20:00:33 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.22.170] has joined #lisp 20:00:37 nikodemus (and other eavesdroppers): come with a 5ish minute lightning talk and a plan to hack on something to produce a second lightning talk 20:00:37 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:00:38 Mmm... I'm looking forward to reading the after-reports. 20:02:17 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:31 kejsaren4 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:02 ... It occurs to me that the start of a framework for producing a minimal core with an application in it exists. 20:05:29 isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE000f66256864-CM000f9fac8182.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:06:36 -!- isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE000f66256864-CM000f9fac8182.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:06:46 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:07:06 -!- kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:07:30 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.195.126] has joined #lisp 20:08:27 benny [n=benny@i577A3781.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:09:36 isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE000f66256864-CM000f9fac8182.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:10:50 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-223-113.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:14 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 20:11:31 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@219.Red-83-33-70.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 20:11:31 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 20:11:34 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 20:12:26 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-120-151.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:32 -!- kejsaren3 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:13:51 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-180-132-102.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:52 -!- isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE000f66256864-CM000f9fac8182.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:14:46 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:16:46 Krystof: thanks. are you busy tomorrow night, or should we try to meet up for a pre-workshop pint? 20:17:29 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-165-81.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:33 isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE000f66256864-CM000f9fac8182.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:18:50 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:19:59 ... I think I know how to hack genesis into loading fasls into a warm core image. 20:20:39 nikodemus: good question. "Night" might be pushing it 20:20:52 nyef: is that for more-useful slam.sh? 20:21:07 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177120026.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:21:21 tcr: No, not really. 20:21:32 What's unuseful about slam.sh? 20:21:50 my plane lands ~1700, but besides getting to ibis i have no plans for sunday 20:21:51 Didn't you say a few days ago you'd know how to improve on it 20:22:30 tcr: http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/nyef.git/commitdiff/819f9b30c2af82900ba3d71053a9a6b4bddf291b 20:23:35 nikodemus: hahaha. You might find that takes the rest of Sunday 20:23:37 welcome to London 20:23:50 (where do you land?) 20:24:11 heathrow 20:24:53 I would be surprised if you got to your hotel before about ~2000 20:24:54 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 20:25:00 nyef: ah ok you made it sound more cool back then :-) 20:25:08 which I'm afraid is a little past my bedtime 20:25:34 tcr: Oh, there's other cool stuff in that tree. 20:25:37 jewel__ [n=jewel@vc-41-29-62-27.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:25:42 Some of which even works. 20:25:44 (to people who point out that it is past 2000 right now in my timezone... I feel asleep :-) 20:25:56 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:59 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:21 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@vc-41-30-129-18.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:26:31 Krystof: Sounds like we should wish you a good night and hope the workshop works out well. 20:27:34 /Leave 20:28:22 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:28:34 Yes, good luck on the workshop. I wish I could come, but I work on the wrong lisp implementation. 20:28:57 meh, interlopers would be welcome; we need people to put in the stocks 20:29:30 rme: how dare you work on such a fantastic lisp implementation? 20:29:31 shame on you 20:29:43 maybe your impl comi;es with sbcl or vice cersa ? 20:29:48 We should all switch back to Kyoto and forget this madness. 20:29:50 or a pugilistic interlude! "it's conservative! how can you call it a gc!" "i'll show you garbage!" 20:30:10 heh 20:30:55 rme: you could work on debugging openmcl as an sbcl build host 20:31:00 I have not had OS/X thread failures as much as the early days 20:31:01 kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:03 oh, sorry, "ccl" 20:31:14 openmcl works fine as an sbcl build host 20:31:30 Hrm... Maybe I should spend some time this afternoon and tomorrow committing fixes for a few things I've noticed since starting the wider fixnum hack... 20:31:40 "I can do floating-point computations faster by hand!" "Oh yeah, well I don't have to plan my whole day around re-compiling my code!" 20:31:42 -!- rstandy`` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-120-152.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:31:51 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-180-132-102.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:32:40 :-) 20:32:51 Fair to both extents 20:32:53 see: it would be great! 20:33:15 it's OK; we'll hang out on IRC and make you feel virtually there 20:34:41 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:35:51 Krystof: did you have time to look at those files tcr found? they are really neat :) 20:35:59 -!- n2kra [n=n2kra@pool-173-63-246-135.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 20:36:03 I haven't 20:36:17 They mention SSAifying IR1. 20:36:32 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 20:36:33 I've had that (brief) conversation with ram by e-mail 20:36:58 back when I was a naive postgrad thinking that I would have time and ability to do loop optimizations 20:37:26 -!- isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE000f66256864-CM000f9fac8182.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:38:10 kejsaren3 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:15 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-92-48.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:39:19 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 20:40:34 -!- kejsaren4 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:40:38 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:41:02 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:42:42 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:42:55 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:43:15 you're right, these notes are fun 20:43:30 -!- lukas`` [n=lukas@80-219-169-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:44:16 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:45 *Krystof* looks at the incremental core file thing and thinks of sb-heapdump 20:44:51 there's even Python V2 plan, so we can just adopt that for sbcl 2.0 :) 20:45:42 i think we should put those into doc/internal-notes/ram/ or something 20:45:45 Can we split the compiler sources up a bit more, move the lisp-specific stuff away from the general compiler guts? 20:48:04 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:38 nyef: i have no direct objections -- but i'm not sure i know what you mean 20:48:47 how can I get "foo" from #P"foo"? 20:49:11 wakeup^: namestring is one way 20:49:16 Well, all of the ir1-translators and optimizers, for example, are lisp-specific. Lifetime analysis is more general. 20:50:12 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 20:50:29 *Krystof* looks forward to nyef's resurrection of Dylan 20:50:40 thx Xach 20:50:58 *wakeup^* used it before but was not able to remember... 20:51:02 -!- eno_ is now known as eno 20:51:35 nyef: ram agrees with you, i think: "Divide compiler files into subdirectories: front, back and runtime. 20:51:35 " 20:51:46 Yeah, that's sortof where I got the idea. 20:52:13 "FIXNUM is a bad name for the back-end utility macro." 20:52:13 haha 20:52:46 but as long as we're compiling only lisp (he was working on dylan at the time, i believe) it seems a bit speculative. better organization is better, more is not always better 20:52:49 ... Said macro since renamed "FIXNUMIZE", and the cause of much headaching over the last couple weeks from its abuse? 20:54:48 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:54:51 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 20:56:20 -!- kejsaren3 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:56:27 -!- jewel__ [n=jewel@vc-41-29-62-27.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:56:52 "Recompute DFO more often so that we are sure all unreachable code is flushed?" # afaik strongly related to most of our remaining pfdietz/misc bugs 20:57:12 Okay, that's the stuff I already had as commits locally pushed to CVS. 20:58:09 Now I just have to deal with the missing CLD for x86 call_into_c and the interestingly mis-thought fixme-comment about a find-package in debug-int. 20:58:20 good night 20:58:25 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:58:41 -!- kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:01:37 -!- quodlibetor [n=user@12.130.118.6] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:02:11 quodlibetor [n=user@12.130.118.6] has joined #lisp 21:03:12 "What is all that bootstrap shit doing anyway?" 21:03:28 Magic. It's doing magic. 21:04:34 no for real now, what does the term bootstrap define, further than getting started 21:04:35 can i build a lambda during the expansion of a macro 21:04:48 Guthur: "Build a lambda" in what sense? 21:05:26 well build an anonymous function 21:05:46 lambda being a macro is making things difficult 21:05:58 Guthur: One trick seen is (defmacro with-foo ((some-params) &body body) `(call-with-foo (lambda () ,@body) ,@some-params)), modulo actually making it compile. 21:07:44 You seem to be wanting to do something ill-thought-through. Perhaps you could explain it to us? 21:09:49 i need an anonymous function that basically specifies the vertex layout for opengl 21:11:04 i think anonymous is the best way to go because it will be retrieved depending on the vertex type except there will not be any vertex around so a generic method is no use, instead i have a hashtable 21:11:33 umm its even more difficult to explain than implement 21:11:50 avalanche^ [i=Honningm@60.81-166-31.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:09 oh i just had an idea 21:12:13 class slots 21:13:08 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-93958.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:13:09 -!- quodlibetor [n=user@12.130.118.6] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:13:11 Your basic trick might be to expand to something like `(setf (lambda () ,@whatever)). 21:13:26 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-14478.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 21:14:38 ok thanks nyef, i left this bit to last 21:16:50 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:50 I think the conceptual piece that you might be missing is that a macro is supposed to have no side-effects when it's run, it's supposed to produce a form as output that causes everything it wants to have occur happen as if it had been seen by the compiler/interpreter directly without the macro ever having been there. 21:18:18 rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:18:55 ya this bit is a little icky 21:19:55 -!- ignas [n=ignas@79.132.160.221] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:20:00 If you want your macro to add a function as a value in a hash-table, for example, you expand to a (setf (gethash ...) (lambda (...) ...)). 21:21:07 wakeup pasted "???" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91997 21:21:21 can anyone explain this to me? 21:21:25 kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:31 I cant find my mistake 21:21:54 kejsaren3 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:06 -!- aintme [n=user@189.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:25:47 wakeup^: What are you passing as arguments to HTML:H2 ? 21:25:54 -!- joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:26:29 kejsaren4 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:55 TR2N [i=email@89-180-207-164.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 21:26:58 kejsaren5 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:40 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:43 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 21:29:45 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:30:01 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:02 nyef: ah good one 21:30:34 -!- beach` is now known as beach 21:30:54 ASau`` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 21:30:59 I passed a path designator without applying namestring on it 21:31:42 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:32:48 francogrex [n=user@146.40-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 21:33:30 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 21:34:44 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:35:12 So, a method you could have used to determine this is to note that the error is caused by trying to treat the parameter as a string, and then look through your function to determine where the parameter is used and if it's likely to be treated as a string at each point. 21:36:06 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:36:11 ... And, from a pedagogic perspective, I completely screwed that up, didn't I? 21:36:37 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:37:14 nah 21:37:34 I did something similar, but I checked where concatenate was used 21:37:48 which failed for obvious reasons^^ 21:37:59 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:31 YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:39:52 -!- kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:39:52 -!- kejsaren3 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:39:58 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:40:03 Sometimes it's just easier to follow the data. 21:40:21 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:41:27 imho slime should just tell me where the error occured 21:41:39 but I know not enough to criticize slime 21:42:26 -!- rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:42:54 -!- snearch [n=olaf@e179141137.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:43:55 Rule one: The error occured between one or more pairs of ears. It may have manifested elsewhere, but it is -always- an error of thought. It is also always an opportunity to learn something. 21:46:00 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:46:48 you sure thats the reason why slime doesn't tell me? :P 21:47:07 Nah, slime doesn't tell you because it doesn't know. 21:47:23 -!- ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:47:31 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-83-221.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:49:22 good n8 21:50:09 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 21:51:09 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:51:37 nyef: sorted it, used my old friend the closure, hehe 21:51:52 i should have known i wasn't getting enough closure 21:52:28 there was none in this piece of code, i don't know what came over me 21:52:47 -!- kejsaren4 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:53:22 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-25-234.iburst.co.za] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:56:29 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.22.170] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:56:49 cyberhuman1 [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:57:31 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:57:37 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:57:51 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-131-106.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:58:26 this was explained to me before: http://paste.lisp.org/display/91998 21:58:36 but I can't recall the solution 21:59:57 francogrex: both calls reuse the same binding of sum 22:00:20 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-131-106.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:00:21 sum is defined outside of the defun, so its extent is beyond that of the defun 22:01:16 effectively SUM is a global variable with lexical scope 22:01:30 -!- YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:01:57 (set (symbol-function 'sum) (let ((sum)) (lambda (...) ...))) 22:02:01 setf. even 22:02:14 gah 22:02:16 YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 22:02:23 (setf (symbol-function 'fun) (let ((sum)) (lambda (...) ...))) 22:02:28 francogrex, you could pass the sum as an optional parameter to "fun" 22:02:29 -!- Plamen_ [n=pkfrey@194-158-251-71.static.adslpremium.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:02:46 (not obvious what you want though) 22:02:46 like &aux 22:03:09 no, &optional 22:03:15 or you can just use reduce 22:03:41 &optional (sum (list)) 22:03:48 rahul; i know reduce, i ws just showing someone recursion he sked to use it to sum values 22:03:50 hrm. nevermind. 22:03:56 &optional (sum 0) more likely 22:04:01 francogrex, that's the wrong way then. 22:04:20 francogrex: tell them to read SICP 22:04:35 and you should as well, if you care about forcing the use of recursion everywhere :) 22:05:18 francogrex, you'd just write something like (haven't tested): (defun sum (numbers) (if (listp numbers) (+ (sum (rest numbers)) (first numbers)) 0)) 22:05:43 tic: no! 22:05:46 That's probably very wrong though. 22:05:49 that's not a tail recursion 22:05:53 Oh. 22:05:55 francogrex i left a wee annotate 22:06:02 you need to flip it into accumulator style 22:06:02 rahul, good point. forgot about that. 22:07:12 if you write it in terms of DO, you'll get a solution that can be converted into recursion easily 22:07:25 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:31 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:40 well, kind of 22:07:55 eh, no, it works 22:07:56 Guthur: just "discovered" it at the same time (with the help above, see my annotation below yours! 22:10:31 well the version of Guthur works (the one I gotalso by using optional. is that tail recursion? 22:10:47 hw the heck can one test if it's tail recursion or not? 22:10:48 it's tail recursion if you could glue the function together at the end and make a loop of it. 22:11:15 ...which is what the compiler does, if it supports tail-call optimization. 22:13:07 kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:28 kejsaren3 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:36 shrughes [n=shrughes@c-65-96-172-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:36 ok 22:18:29 heh yeah 22:18:40 learn about CPS transforms 22:18:47 or read SICP 22:19:08 except remember that a LET with a special var does not necessarily have a tail call in the final position 22:19:09 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-173-73-76-237.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:19:12 -!- sugarshark [n=ole@p4FDA9A25.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:19:14 CL is different that way 22:19:23 rahul: I tried reading SICP, it was boring so I preferred to read PAIP 22:19:37 doesn't teach you those things. 22:19:38 -!- cyberhuman [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:19:38 francogrex: well, SICP covers recursion the same way PAIP covers compilation 22:20:19 so maybe you're not actually interested in learning about tail recursion, which is fair enough :) 22:20:30 it's good to know, so you should do it at some point, however 22:20:41 rahul, I just want to impress a collegue 22:20:45 actually, I think PAIP does a CPS transform for the scheme compiler 22:20:48 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:20:58 francogrex: recursion is just a superset of iteration 22:21:04 -!- kejsaren5 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:21:15 an iteration is isomorphic to a recursion with tail calls 22:21:17 rahul; I would like to know about tail recursion, I kew one example 22:21:51 but since I dn't use (tail) recursion in my codes...it doesn't stick in the memory/learning 22:22:08 see also: H Baker's paper on metacircular definition: he covers TAGBODY <-> LABELS 22:23:16 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6F579.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 22:23:25 redblue [n=star@ppp133.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:24:26 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:55 rahul: recursion is not a superset of iteration 22:28:20 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:28:20 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:29:28 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:29:45 ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-179-190.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:29:45 -!- ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-179-190.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:30:01 ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-179-190.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:31:46 see also: H Baker's paper << do you have it? is it free (if you give me the journal I'd try to get it I have a library electronic account) 22:32:00 journal referebce I mean 22:34:23 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 22:34:30 http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ probably. 22:34:46 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@topp148-office-nyc.openplans.org] has quit [] 22:36:35 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:39:03 -!- nha [n=prefect@31-174.4-85.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit ["* Isengard has quit IRC (Excess Flood)"] 22:39:12 -!- kejsaren3 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:39:17 ? http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html 22:41:54 ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 22:43:50 addled [n=adl@77.208.134.5] has joined #lisp 22:45:45 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-88-47.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:50:38 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-375232.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["leaving"] 22:51:27 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:51:38 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 22:51:54 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:52:08 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:52:16 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:41 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:41 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:53:18 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 22:56:45 baddog [n=baddog@110.32.148.140] has joined #lisp 22:57:25 kejsaren3 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:47 -!- YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:57:47 kejsaren4 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:09 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-92-48.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:01:02 -!- francogrex [n=user@146.40-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:06:34 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host186.190-137-254.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:07:05 -!- kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:07:12 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:07:38 -!- baddog [n=baddog@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:07:58 baddog [n=baddog@110.32.148.140] has joined #lisp 23:08:53 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:49 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:11:49 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:11:52 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:12:31 is there something I can do to prevent a form like (defconstant thing '(:a :b :c)) from dropping me to the debugger when I compile & load my system? It thinks I'm redefining it (since the list isn't eql with itself) 23:12:44 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:15:05 I suppose I could wrap the asdf:load-op in a handler to just select the "go ahead and redefine it" option, but that sucks 23:17:21 there is defineconstant macro if seen used in some projects (sykopomp and co), think its from sbcl 23:17:26 i'll paste 23:17:37 if/i've 23:17:48 bfein_: (defconstant +foo+ (or +foo+ ...)) sometimes works 23:17:54 if NIL is not a valid value for it 23:18:05 otherwise, boundp check 23:18:51 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:18:55 um 23:19:00 always need a boundp check 23:19:21 Guthur pasted "defineconstant" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92001 23:19:33 (unless (boundp '+foo+) (defconstant +foo+ ...)) 23:19:45 ziga`` [n=user@BSN-61-60-72.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:02 it seems to be basically what rahul is saying 23:20:04 -!- ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-179-190.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:20:32 -!- prxq [n=mommer@78.52.121.65] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:21:38 yeah, should work, thanks 23:23:45 -!- baddog [n=baddog@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit ["leaving"] 23:24:04 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:24:09 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:12 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:15 baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 23:25:55 -!- Spaghett1ni [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:28:43 hmm, I switched to the define-constant, and after compiling the file with the define-constant in it, I get UNBOUND-VARIABLE error when trying to load the file (saying that the constant is unbound). This also happened once before when asdf was compiling the system... but it has also just worked sometimes... 23:29:56 the only place it appears in this file is in the define-constant form 23:34:48 -!- rme [rme@clozure-8995C93A.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 23:34:48 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-120-151.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:35:00 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 23:35:28 -!- ziga` [n=user@BSN-61-57-110.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:36:17 ah, I think define-constant wasn't loaded properly... just threw me off that it had happened before (that was a different issue) 23:36:49 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:38:49 -!- kejsaren3 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:38:55 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:39:15 -!- kejsaren4 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:39:52 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f755639.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:40:19 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:25 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@e179163017.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 23:44:46 -!- baddog [n=liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Client Quit] 23:49:12 brandelune [n=suzume@pl807.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:49:47 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:50:03 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:10 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 23:56:14 i have a macro that expands into a list, is it possible in some way to pass that expansion to another macro 23:57:33 as a parameter list 23:57:50 is that compiler-macro territory? 23:57:53 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:12 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.195.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:58:42 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:59:13 Guthur: (macro1 (macro2 ...)) 23:59:20 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 23:59:28 or (defmacro macro2 (...) `(macro1 ...)) 23:59:37 and on that note, I'm out.