00:00:30 I have half a recollection that someone somewhere was able to get matlisp working with optimized BLAS libraries for windows on SBCL, but I might have misread them. 00:00:30 -!- TR2N [n=email@89-180-213-219.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 00:01:50 ouch, non-SSE2 chip. I remember that pain (Used to nice Tualatin that overclocked could kick ass of Pentium 4) 00:02:11 I was able to get the last binary release for windows talking to slime pretty easily and wasn't able to break it myself 00:02:17 iyt' 00:02:19 erm 00:02:55 btw, didn't SBCL move to add SSE2 support lately? (and how you set which extensions are available?) 00:02:57 Heh. I haven't dared upgrade slime on my windows install since they checked in that abomination of an sbcl/win32 "fix" for the debugger issues. 00:03:43 Though I definately remember helping someone work out a way to conditionally disable said fix when it wasn't needed. 00:04:39 I've got a 1600x1200 display in the old laptop so anything cheap would be a downgrade in user experience... 00:04:50 brentb: nice 00:04:54 Sweet. 00:05:01 that's a pretty nice old laptop 00:05:09 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:05:17 *p_l* was considering grabbing a 1920x1200 for his old laptop, but lacked liquid assets at the time 00:05:33 15,4" 1920x1200 would rock in terms of DPI :D 00:05:35 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-75-162.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:05:53 it's a Dell Precision M40, one of the first laptops with a Quadro2Go video card 00:06:43 dunno what nvidia calls those now 00:07:06 Plamen [n=pkfrey@80-218-1-142.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:07:53 brentb: the current mobile models don't have any special names, I think 00:08:15 p_l: SSE2 only on x86-64 (the spec says it's available). 00:08:33 brentb: though some laptops get Quadro NVS, which is the "office desktop" kind of card 00:08:36 pkhuong: ok 00:09:00 pkhuong: any idea for API to check what extensions are available and which should be used? 00:10:08 stassats [n=user@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 00:10:25 p_l: CPUID. 00:10:35 pkhuong: I meant from lisp side 00:10:39 -!- stassats [n=user@wikipedia/stassats] has left #lisp 00:11:00 stassats [n=user@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 00:11:05 right, CPUID. What exactly do you mean? 00:11:21 gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-229-37-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has joined #lisp 00:12:33 pkhuong: I was thinking of possible support for further cpu extensions, and how it would be possible to specify to Python which are available (for example to built without certain instructions) 00:13:28 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:13:39 p_l: yeah, they're now names like Quadro FX 770M or Quadro FX 1700M, and I assume the "M" suffix means "mobile" 00:14:09 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-75-162.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:14:10 that'd be via local-target-features. 00:14:25 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-93655.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:14:30 brentb: well, radeon variants have M (outside of brand name), so nVidia might use similar 00:14:34 pkhuong: ok, thanks 00:14:59 customize-backend-subfeatures.lisp, probably. There's already :cmov. 00:16:05 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:09 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 00:16:44 -!- stassats [n=user@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:17:05 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 00:18:02 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:20:08 baddog_ [n=baddog@110.32.134.244] has joined #lisp 00:23:34 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-106-45.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:23:39 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:24:46 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:26:02 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:26:37 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:27:32 -!- adu [n=ajr@pool-71-241-254-143.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 00:29:00 -!- Plamen [n=pkfrey@80-218-1-142.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:30:46 Is there a good description of how SBCL implements multiple dispatch? 00:31:27 -!- baddog [n=baddog@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:31:53 Well, SBCL's CLOS is based on PCL, so you could start with papers on PCL optimization. 00:31:59 Beyond that, not sure. 00:32:24 M-. is okay at that, if you're willing to claw your eyes out. 00:32:59 http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.9.1451 is apparently relevant. 00:33:17 Though I don't know if it's entirely accurate for SBCL. 00:33:39 nyef: Thanks, my search just turned that up as well. 00:34:54 There's also something on discriminating functions in the internals manual. 00:36:17 And if you dive fairly deeply in the generation of discrimination functions. 00:36:22 baddog [n=baddog@110.32.134.244] has joined #lisp 00:37:32 nyef: I found a note in the internals texinfo page, but it wasn't very specific. 00:37:34 I think I'm going to try and stay away from CLOS guts for a while. 00:39:52 _8david [n=user@pD9542FC9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 00:42:25 I wonder how much of CLOS we could keep and still have a simple, statically compilable, system; something like (decf CLOS) : CLOS :: defstruct : defclass. 00:49:22 Like the hbaker paper on CLOStrophobia? 00:51:35 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:54 Looks like it, or a very good basis at least. 00:54:22 mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:20 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:55:23 -!- _8david` [n=user@pD9541FC5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:56:05 -!- drownfish [n=drownfis@adsl-99-48-255-188.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:57:20 So the 1990 PCL paper adds the hash for each specialized argument, each entry in the table contains hashes for each specialized argument. But when the method is invoked, we don't know how many arguments are specialized. 00:57:28 -!- maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [] 01:00:26 That is, we can have (defmethod f ((x integer) y) 1) (defmethod f (x (y float)) 2) (defmethod f ((x integer) (y float)) 3), and this would cause an almost guaranteed miss when invoked with any arguments other than the doubly-specialized ones. 01:01:10 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 01:01:32 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:37 jedbrown: are you sure they don't mean each argument that is specialised upon by at least one method? All of this can be recomputed when methods are (re)defined. 01:01:59 sooth [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357050.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:02:31 But in that example, one method is specialized on both args. 01:02:55 jedbrown: so all the arguments are specialised. 01:02:55 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 01:03:32 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-219.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:33 (f 3 "foo") is specialized on only one 01:04:25 You're not addressing my interpretation. 01:05:03 -!- baddog_ [n=baddog@110.32.134.244] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:06:09 Hmm, but the above would produce three definitions, right? 01:06:34 and somewhat more entries in the hash table. 01:08:09 Okay, but how is (f 3 y) resolved where y has a type that is defined later? 01:10:39 Does it even matter? 01:11:04 Given that Y is TYPEP its superclass... 01:12:14 nyef: you want to hash with (class-of Y), and dispatch in constant time. 01:12:20 Ah. 01:12:29 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:36 Yeah, in that case you end up needing to rehash. 01:17:23 As I understand it, the hash is static, you only get to choose the size of the method table and how the entries are distributed. With single dispatch, you start from hash mod table-size, and reject entries that don't match, falling back to the default implementation when you come to an entry with no hash. 01:17:27 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-130-254.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:18:19 With multiple dispatch, you start at sum-of-hashes mod table-size and look for an entry that matches. 01:18:29 jedbrown: static? That doesn't make any sense since you can defmethod at any time; there is no "static" in CLOS. 01:19:46 The hash is not specific to an individual generic function. Or I'm misreading the paper. 01:21:22 -!- ntd [n=user@daneel.cc.gt.atl.ga.us] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:22:39 "the hash seed of a wrapper is allocated at the time the wrapper is created and not adjusted later" 01:22:39 jedbrown: it's a cache. If an entry is absent, it'll just get added. 01:23:09 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:24:54 jedbrown: yes? That's an integer, the hash value of the class. 01:25:40 Right, that's what I had called "static" 01:26:13 It's just a fixed-size cache in front of some search tree. 01:27:05 How does this tree work, the word "tree" doesn't even appear in this paper. 01:27:38 -!- gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-229-37-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:30:24 jedbrown: that's not covered. It's not CLOS-specific (just a regular decision tree), nor performance-sensitive; if it were, performance would be atrocious anyway. 01:32:55 Okay, and that would be a search for the (hash-of-class1, hash-of-class2) pair, followed by (hash-of-class1, anything) and (anything, hash-of-class2)? 01:33:55 no. Hash values can collide. 01:34:46 Oh, then by names? And defmethod just inserts entries into this structure? 01:35:23 luis`` [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 01:35:24 -!- luis` [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:36:04 You have to handle subclassing too. Hence some sort of search structure. 01:37:07 Okay, thanks. 01:38:00 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:08 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.215.246] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:44:06 didi [n=user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 01:44:49 One final crazy question: what kind of debugger support is available for foreign calls, e.g. Lisp->C->Lisp? 01:47:17 Oh, -that'd- be nice. 01:47:45 You might be able to get a usable backtrace, if you're lucky? 01:50:07 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:50:09 you might be able to use GDB with the memory address, didn't work for me when tried though 01:50:17 s/when/when i 01:50:58 Haha, this all arises because I'm trying to clean up some hackish multiple dispatch in a C library. The exotic solution would be to move high-level logic out of C. Some other people are talking about Python, but cross-language debugging isn't good there either. 01:52:55 I would do it with CPP and inline functions to get an inline cache. 01:54:03 pkhuong: The types are not known at compile-time, new implementations can be dynamically loaded. 01:54:06 inline in most compilers is just a hint 01:54:18 it doesn't ensure the code gets inlined 01:54:18 jedbrown: what's your point? 01:54:31 -!- konr1 is now known as konr 01:54:33 jedbrown, RAII 01:54:34 ace4016: and what's *your* point? 01:54:35 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.195.126] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:54:42 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:54:52 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 01:55:14 wait, wrong one...i think 01:55:44 jedbrown: .... multiple dispatch object system in C? 01:55:45 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:56:27 No, RAII doesn't work here. They are long-lived parallel objects, creation is similar to dependency injection and the objects can change type after being created (so their relation to other objects is preserved). 01:56:38 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 01:56:46 p_l: yeah, what's wrong with that? 01:57:05 jedbrown: not saying wrong, I'm just astonished 01:57:05 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:57:20 I would expect someone writing a custom preprocessor by now :D 01:57:22 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:33 TR2N [i=email@89.180.171.123] has joined #lisp 01:59:49 |coyoes| [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:49 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:01:37 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:38 -!- |coyoes| [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:03:13 |coyoes| [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:14 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:04:36 -!- sooth [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357050.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [No route to host] 02:04:37 -!- |coyoes| [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:07:08 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.215.246] has joined #lisp 02:07:25 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:38 -!- baddog [n=baddog@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:07:50 baddog [n=baddog@110.32.134.244] has joined #lisp 02:08:30 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 02:08:51 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:34 Would this serve as #'function-designator-p: (or (functionp obj) (fboundp obj)) ? 02:12:35 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:12:37 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:47 -!- brentb [n=buescher@71.181.162.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:13:12 buescher [n=buescher@71.181.162.240] has joined #lisp 02:13:17 -!- buescher is now known as brentb 02:14:04 |coyoes| [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:04 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:15:12 -!- |coyoes| [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:15:17 LiamH: what about macros, special operators? 02:15:34 |coyoes| [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:57 LiamH: yet-to-be-defined functions? 02:16:07 adeht: not an extended function designator 02:16:31 "The consequences are undefined if a symbol is used as a function designator but it does not have a global definition as a function, or it has a global definition as a macro or a special form." 02:17:01 LiamH: yes, but fboundp returns true for macro names 02:17:13 adeht: oh, pisser 02:17:32 jedbrown: btw, any chance of getting the object system's source? :D 02:17:56 p_l: http://mcs.anl.gov/petsc 02:19:39 p_l: Multiple dispatch is currently asymmetric in that it is only really extensible in one argument, similar to visitor. 02:19:42 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@ip-118-90-114-151.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:20:31 jedbrown: sounds like a sane restriction. 02:21:29 pkhuong: It's a terrible restriction. Common example, you have viewers, used to write objects to various formats (text, X11, HDF5). 02:22:18 So the typical thing is that dispatch is owned by the objects you are viewing. When you create a new object, you give it methods to view to each viewer you care to support. 02:22:41 But then it's not possible to write a new viewer without going around and modifying every object you want to view. 02:27:13 ow 02:27:38 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:08 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-189-118.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:37:43 muopioid [i=62f7735e@gateway/web/freenode/x-tkbdowvvllvhigfz] has joined #lisp 02:41:22 -!- shrughes [n=shrughes@c-76-118-177-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:55:43 shrughes [n=shrughes@c-76-118-176-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:41 azu [i=azure@s2.org] has joined #lisp 02:57:39 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-232-46.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 03:01:05 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:02:30 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229177076.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 03:03:25 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 03:03:25 JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:10 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 03:06:39 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:01 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:11:52 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-109-110.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:08 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-135.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:18:11 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:25 I wonder if there's a "tight structures" implementation feature.. e.g., to represent 2D vectors a cons or simple-array seem like an overkill, and I remember some hack about abusing complex numbers.. 03:19:56 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 03:20:03 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.219.10] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 03:20:32 By 2d vector, what do you mean? 03:21:11 (X, Y) 03:22:54 another use would be a 20-byte SHA1 hash.. 03:23:46 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:23:52 So, a vector of pairs? 03:24:15 Is there any reason not to use an actual two dimensional array? 03:24:29 overhead? 03:24:34 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:25:03 What overhead? An array header for the whole vector? 03:25:27 hmm I misread 03:25:51 I'm talking about mathematical vectors 03:27:55 Zhivago: ...a 2d array for a 2-item data structure? 03:28:20 So, what you really want are just specialized pairs. 03:28:38 well, in that particular case 03:29:38 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-109-110.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:30:23 adeht: We found while working on a project that makes heavy use of 2d vectors that complexes were the lightest, fastest, and easiest way to do 2d vector math on SBCL 03:31:31 yeah.. and then there are cases such as http://marc.info/?l=git&m=124111702609723&w=2 03:32:51 so I'm wondering if there can be a nice abstraction for small objects 03:33:20 depends on what you need 03:33:25 conses are pretty small 03:33:34 and typed arrays can be pretty tight and light. 03:33:44 conses aren't typed.. 03:35:04 -!- baddog [n=baddog@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:35:21 I suppose you could have some pool of storage, say a typed array, and use indices to refer to objects 03:35:36 but that seems kinda bad :) 03:35:55 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 03:36:28 you can use an array of ints 03:37:15 then you need to translate everything to fixnums 03:37:20 and back 03:37:25 yup 03:37:59 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1"] 03:39:56 what i did one time was translate all of my objects into ints, each different type got an array, start filling the arrays 03:40:07 subthings of a type got an array 03:40:11 was a huge headache 03:40:22 subthings of an object* 03:40:26 but it was faster 03:40:27 adeht: I recall a mention that QPX uses a kind of specialized storage implemented in a big block of mmaped memory, to minimize amount of GC 03:41:12 p_l: well with small objects that come and go, I think a gengc is ok 03:42:02 adeht: the effect in that case was to bring GC on the objects stored there to zero 03:42:28 redblue [i=star@ppp121.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:44:00 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:49:49 -!- muopioid [i=62f7735e@gateway/web/freenode/x-tkbdowvvllvhigfz] has left #lisp 03:51:10 -!- mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:57:20 mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:38 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-19-244.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:59:12 Actually, conses are typed, but most implementations don't implement specialized forms. 03:59:26 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:43 It comes down to either using tag bits, like cons does, or using a header word, like vectors do. 04:00:19 Or embedding into something where the type is implicit, like a two dimensional array ... 04:01:08 -!- jedbrown 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sp0_of [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 04:52:24 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 04:52:28 -!- sp0_of is now known as spoofy 04:53:34 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.180.137] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:53:54 -!- bfein_ [n=bfein@pool-74-104-157-229.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:59:23 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633626.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 05:00:02 -!- brentb [n=buescher@71.181.162.240] has quit ["Started wasting time elsewhere"] 05:07:22 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:09:20 Osaka [n=Alien@fl-71-3-79-199.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:15 Good morning! 05:13:12 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 05:14:09 morning beach 05:19:02 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:23:59 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:24:49 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:12 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1"] 05:37:30 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.69.175] has left #lisp 05:48:48 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@ip-118-90-114-151.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:54:55 -!- Orest^bnc [n=Orest@81.169.174.192] has quit [Client Quit] 05:55:10 Orest^bnc [n=Orest@81.169.174.192] has joined #lisp 05:57:25 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 06:02:42 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:03:11 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 06:06:40 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 06:11:06 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:13:22 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host211.190-138-156.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:13:55 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 06:13:59 envi_home2 [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 06:20:09 g'day good #lisp 06:20:38 schme: heya 06:20:49 sykopomp: hey busdriver man :) 06:20:58 wut 06:21:10 sykopomp: sorry. I woke up with hail to the busdriver stuck in my head. 06:21:48 *schme* fires up some SLIME. so many weeks without the lisp :D 06:26:51 hello schme 06:26:56 morning 06:27:05 heyo beach 06:27:37 This Lisp Outside the Box looks interesting. 06:28:40 beach: last lisp meeting I went to was a fairly varied overview of GUI alternatives for CL. McClim got some pretty bad rap :\ 06:28:58 sykopomp: I am not surprised. 06:29:01 What got the good rap? 06:29:01 ...and most of the time was spent talking about how the best idea is probably to use a web browser as your GUI :| 06:29:07 sykopomp: where was the meeting? 06:29:15 schme: the "best rap" went to "hire someone to do a GUI for you" 06:29:18 (so we can hunt 'em down and kill 'em) 06:29:27 beach: twin cities. http://tclispers.org 06:29:30 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-106-45.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:29:32 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:41 there should be a video in the next week or so, I imagine. The whole thing was recorded. 06:29:46 Cools. 06:29:51 hi 06:30:00 hello Fare 06:30:15 McCLIM is a bit.. beta stage it seems to me, so I understand why maybe people not love it. 06:30:56 *Fare* recurses into problem hell 06:30:57 schme: isn't "beta" giving it too much credit? :\ 06:31:13 I only hate it when I realize I need a windows GUI :) 06:31:28 sykopomp: I dunno. It seems plenty useable as it is, for me anyway :) 06:31:29 CL doesn't have builtin portable support for opening unix pipes in non-blocking mode, so I'm trying to use IOLib. 06:31:31 brutus [n=brutus@203.199.213.3] has joined #lisp 06:31:33 beach: Garnet actually got a lot of love from rpg. Using Cocoa through CCL also got pretty positive reviews... 06:31:41 But IOLib needs to be converted to XCVB 06:32:00 sykopomp: The other day I wrote a complete accounting system with a McCLIM GUI in just a few hours. It works out of the box, and it's a great tool for me. 06:32:01 then it uses asdf extensions for CFFI-GROVEL that I may have to port to XCVB 06:32:01 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:32:19 Cocoa seems to require buying some OS X :) 06:32:27 now, CFFI-GROVEL uses RUN-PROGRAM that fails when I am in a UTF-8 environment because of a SBCL bug. 06:32:29 Gah! 06:32:29 beach: cools! 06:32:37 beach: great, now i can stop buying quickbooks. 06:32:40 beach: it would've been nice to have you (or anyone who's actually well-versed in clim) there, tbh. 06:32:53 beach, what do you account with it? 06:32:58 sykopomp: I am starting to think that there is something else going on. 06:33:03 beach: I suspect that somehow maddening for some people is how a green programmer might run McCLIM examples and have them crash 06:33:05 Is there a way to multiply a number with each element of a list (in one line)? something like map multiplication from a number to each element of a list? 06:33:18 beach: what do you mean? An anti-clim conspiracy? 06:33:20 sykopomp: That is a problem maybe. Not so many people are well versed in it. and it... is a bit scary at first :) 06:33:20 Fare: It is for my students to work on in the programming-project course for the third-year undergraduates. 06:33:25 beach, chàu anh 06:33:32 sykopomp: No, I am not paranoid. 06:33:38 or maybe more of a complete maze than scary. 06:33:59 Fare: Chào em. 06:34:26 *Fare* attacks the recursion bottom up, and tries to understand how to debug SBCL's c-strings->string-list 06:34:31 brutus: (mapcar (lambda (x) (* x your-number)) your-list) 06:34:46 p_l: possibly. 06:35:01 *Fare* also wonders how to best integrate CFFI-grovel into XCVB... 06:35:09 Ralith, thanks! 06:35:21 brutus: do you understand how that works? 06:35:41 beach: is there a testsuite of sorts for CLIM? (I especially asked about CLIM, not McCLIM, to make it stricter - it would be a big boon to marketing speech to show-off portability) 06:35:57 p_l: I don't think such a thing exists. 06:36:08 Ralith, yes...mapcar takes a lambda function which multiplies x with 3 (my number), with each element of my list...and returns the resulting list 06:36:17 does anyone here understand SBCL's alien? 06:36:19 https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/460455 06:36:44 beach: still, a testsuite for McCLIM could prove beneficial, I guess 06:36:54 p_l: It would, yes. 06:38:20 starscream [i=starscre@66-227-208-46.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:38:28 hey all 06:38:40 hello starscream 06:38:59 whats going on in here 06:39:07 starscream: Are you new here? 06:39:30 yep 06:39:33 new to ircs 06:39:49 starscream: See the topic. We are talking about the Lisp programming language. 06:40:07 that is why I came in 06:40:37 Excellent! 06:40:41 :) 06:41:20 beach: for example, right now, I've got CLIM (or to be exact, CLX) to have problems connecting to X11 06:41:44 p_l: Really? Never seen that happen. 06:42:24 beach: yeah. It executes connect() call without socket name 06:43:15 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-150-20.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:44:14 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-183-200.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:44:36 starscream: So are you new to the Lisp language as well? 06:45:39 somewhat 06:45:43 I know Scheme 06:45:54 learned what I know from SICP 06:46:08 brutus: "a lambda function?" 06:46:27 Ralith: Thanks, I didn't have the courage to start that. 06:46:35 heh :P 06:46:41 *Ralith* is in a helpful mood 06:46:54 Ralith, an ad-hoc/temporary/nameless/inline function? 06:46:54 brutus: could you clarify what you mean by that? 06:47:10 brutus: they're usually called "anonymous" 06:47:18 brutus: mapcar takes any kind of function. 06:47:27 brutus: you understand that there's nothing special about the return value of lambda? 06:47:31 -!- starscream [i=starscre@66-227-208-46.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:47:32 it's just another function 06:47:39 starscream: Common Lisp is a very different language from Scheme. 06:48:02 it's anonymous not because of any magic behind the scenes stuff, but simply because you have associated no name with it. 06:48:03 Ralith, yes 06:48:05 kk 06:48:06 good 06:48:19 beach: I've got the same error launching from both emacs (in --daemon mode with multi-tty) and from terminal 06:48:33 __starscream_ [i=starscre@66-227-208-46.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:48:38 p_l: What version of CLX are you using? 06:48:38 similar to the lambda functions used in Python 06:49:12 which i've worked with before 06:49:13 brutus: most higher-order functions in lisp accept function designators. 06:49:38 beach: ... I think it's a local problem. a very *FREAKY* problem 06:49:49 sykopomp, yup 06:49:53 p_l: Ah. It sounds pretty strange. 06:50:03 beach: apparently... my X11 socket disappeared 06:50:12 doesn't explain how I can launch apps 06:53:03 -!- Osaka [n=Alien@fl-71-3-79-199.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:53:47 also, running strace on sbcl isn't advised 06:54:00 Why is that? 06:54:42 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 06:54:57 beach: in my case it caused LOTs of sigsegv and corrupted memory 06:56:39 anyway, it's these days that I wish I enabled tcp access 06:56:41 tic: here's a feature you should add to opera. I want to be able to drag a tab from firefox into the opera window and have it there. 06:57:14 starscream [i=starscre@66-227-208-46.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:57:25 -!- moah [n=gnu@dslb-084-063-189-075.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:57:47 moah [n=gnu@dslb-188-100-155-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:50 starscream: I was just saying that Common Lisp is a very different language from Scheme. 06:58:06 starscream: And that influences the style of the resulting programs. 06:58:29 starscream: I guess the biggest difference in style is that a lot of people just love CLOS and MOP... and no wonder :P 06:58:35 starscream: Many recent CL programs are written in an object-oriented style using generic functions. 06:58:37 beach, I'd like a common-lisp with call/cc and a decent module system :-/ 06:58:52 and hygienic macros 06:58:59 hygenic? 06:59:01 Fare: Maybe scheme with CLOS then? :) 06:59:03 meaning what? 06:59:15 schme, I like a Lisp-2 06:59:17 Fare: I'll take unwind-protect over call/cc any day. 06:59:27 aha 06:59:32 fare-lisp (: 06:59:34 sykopomp, what's wrong with dynamic-wind ? 06:59:50 I don't know what dynamic-wind is. 06:59:53 Ralith: It essentially means that the macro system makes it impossible or hard to have unintentional variable capture. 07:00:11 sykopomp, the Scheme equivalent of unwind-protect 07:00:29 beach: doesn't sound like that great a benefit, at least from the CL perspective of "you can shoot yourself in the foot if you really want to" 07:01:02 Ralith: benefits I can think of is less code to debug :) 07:01:14 fair enough 07:02:10 Ralith: hygienic macros seem to make it easier to write certain kinds of macros, particularly metamacros... 07:02:11 Ralith: Also, such a system might prevent idioms that are useful, such as anaphoric macros. 07:02:32 So one has both (: 07:02:44 edumacated [n=edumacat@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 07:03:57 beach: ah, then I'd def. prefer the CL side. 07:04:02 power <3 07:04:33 an gun isn't much use if it jams every time it's being aimed at anything vaguely foot-ish. 07:04:36 Ralith: there's power in having hygienic macros, too. 07:04:52 well why can't we have both :( 07:05:19 we can't? 07:05:24 Ralith: We probably could. 07:05:27 we don't yet 07:05:32 *Fare* hates heisenbugs 07:06:15 http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/mbe/mbe-lsp.html <--- ? 07:06:43 sykopomp: oh, sweet. 07:06:46 oh, it doesn't provide hygiene. 07:06:50 hah 07:07:36 aw. 07:07:46 providing hygiene in CL would be... tricky 07:08:05 why does (car (list 1 2)) evaluate to 1 and (cdr (list 1 2)) evaluate to (2), and not just 2? is it because the cdr of the cons cell may point to a collection of cons cells? 07:08:29 Ralith: It's more of an attitude problem. Many people who like hygienic macros are into "purity" (notice the semantically loaded terminology), and could't accept a "hygienic" and a "contaminated" macro system to co-exist. 07:08:33 edumacated: do you know what a linked list is? 07:08:39 ye 07:08:40 beach: ugh. 07:08:44 you need a full CL-in-CL frontend to achieve hygiene 07:08:45 beach: keep them out of my community :x 07:08:51 edumacated: CL lists are linked lists. 07:08:56 edumacated: does that answer your question? 07:08:57 edumacated: cdr gives the "rest" of the list (which is in this case, another list) 07:09:03 it doesn't give "second" 07:09:08 cadr gives "second" 07:09:12 also 07:09:14 second gives "second" 07:09:23 and you should use it, not cadr, if what you want is "the second element" :P 07:09:35 i thought that if the cdr contains only one value then it would return that particular value. 07:09:49 edumacated: the second value of (1 2) is (2) 07:09:53 (cdr (1 . 2)) => 2 07:10:06 edumacated: why did you think that? 07:10:17 a cons cell is two values. 07:10:25 Ralith: cdr returns one value. 07:10:26 Where is claar when we need it? 07:10:29 a CL list is a linked list built of nested cons cells. 07:10:37 sykopomp: and that value is the next cell. 07:10:39 beach, it is trivial to build the non-hygienic defmacro on top of syntax-case, and very hard to do the opposite 07:10:47 beach: crying in a corner because lisp can't be sandboxed, I imagine. 07:10:56 Fare: I believe you. 07:11:08 Ralith: no, that value is the value of the cdr of the cons cell you pass it. 07:11:17 it doesn't have to be another cell. 07:11:18 sykopomp: Could be. 07:11:20 beach: claar? 07:11:25 sykopomp: it does when we're talking about lists. 07:11:28 sykopomp: which, surprise, we are :P 07:11:43 p_l: a bot that pjb wrote to draw list structures and such. 07:11:51 -!- starscream [i=starscre@66-227-208-46.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit ["Hey! Where'd my controlling terminal go?"] 07:12:08 minion: tell edumacated about gentle 07:12:08 I wonder 07:12:08 edumacated: direct your attention towards gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 07:12:10 Ralith: only proper lists 07:12:13 codepad doesn't run SBCL, does it? 07:12:17 sykopomp: no shit? :P 07:12:27 you said lists :) 07:12:36 I'm just practicing my clhs lawyering. 07:12:36 the reason i thought it would return 2 and not (2) is because of syskopomp's example 07:12:47 sykopomp: and I failed to specify that we weren't referring to CLtL1, too. 07:12:51 Ralith, thanks that's actually the book i'm reading now. 07:12:53 lern2readingcomprehension :P 07:12:56 edumacated: (1 2) is short hand. 07:13:02 edumacated: thank schme. 07:13:11 edumacated: read gentle intro. I think it explains cons cells pretty well. 07:13:34 -!- __starscream_ [i=starscre@66-227-208-46.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:13:39 basically, to achieve hygiene, you need to identify and keep track of each and every binding around you; this cannot be done with just standard Lisp macros (though maybe with CLtL2 environment extensions?) 07:14:15 also, syntax-case requires source to not be cons cells but something that keeps a link to the enclosing environment (and also why not to file position). 07:16:05 of course, the whole point of hygienic macros is that you can write more easily macro-that-define-macros-that-define-macros, etc., and be able to interact with elaborate module systems. 07:16:11 i believe i understood cons cells, i just didn't understand why (cdr (cons 1 2)) would give 2, and (cdr (list 1 2)) would give (2). I would imagine (list 1 2) and (cons 1 2) would be equal. 07:16:21 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:41 edumacated: they're not 07:16:51 (list 1 2) is (cons 1 (cons 2 nil)) 07:16:58 edumacated: Mebbe you can think of a cons cell as a thing with two pointers to stuff. in (cons 1 2) the first pointer poinst to 1, second points to 2 07:16:58 why would you imagine that??? 07:17:23 edumacated: in (list 1 2) the first points to 1, the second points to another cons cell.. this case that happes to be (2) 07:17:28 edumacated: it's a linked list. 07:17:33 edumacated: you said you understood linked lists. 07:18:01 think of car as 'value' and cdr as 'next' 07:19:44 i understand. thanks. 07:19:53 great 07:20:45 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-150-20.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:21:38 as the sbcl heisenbug goes back into hiding, I resume trying to convert iolib to xcvb... 07:22:48 Fare: What is the state of xcvb and what does it do that asdf doesn't? 07:23:24 beach: parallel compilation and designed for application delivery, at least that's what I get from a short look :) 07:23:39 beach: it does all that asdf does, plus a few extensions 07:24:07 on the other hand, it only supports sbcl, ccl, clisp, and doesn't yet support cffi-grovel extensions. 07:24:51 things it does that asdf doesn't include: conditional compilation, generated files, but most importantly, deterministic compilation. 07:25:21 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has joined #lisp 07:25:46 also, can parallelize the build with make (enforcing declared dependencies) or poiu (doesn't enforce dependencies, faster than asdf) 07:26:52 Fare: thanks! 07:27:56 I'm working on a standalone backend that would fork a tree of lisp processes to compile everything deterministically yet without reloading from scratch everytime 07:28:10 but then I'm in CL dependency hell 07:29:20 and portability nightmare 07:32:42 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-161-130.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:34:55 what does McCLIM use for its event loop? serve-events? 07:35:26 -!- edumacated [n=edumacat@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 07:35:50 Fare: are there good examples of fork() usage in CL? It seems like rather not-well used method in many "modern" languages as well as CL 07:36:09 beach, do you have students interested in modernizing CL? 07:36:25 p_l, poiu uses fork 07:36:51 p_l: xcvb will use it as soon as I go through my dependency hell 07:37:32 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:38:46 -!- robewald [n=robert@105.81-167-153.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:39:09 Plamen [n=pkfrey@80-218-1-142.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:39:34 robewald [n=robert@105.81-167-153.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 07:41:59 beach: where do you teach, btw? 07:42:14 Fare: I don't think I have any students that would be capable of modernizing CL. And there are such students, they are too busy with other things. Why do you ask? 07:42:24 Ralith: Bordeaux 07:42:51 Fare: what is "modernization"? 07:42:52 Fare: I think it depends on the backend. The CLX backend uses the CLX event loop. 07:43:55 sykopomp: adding erlang to it, seems a good modernization (: 07:44:37 schme: In what sense? 07:44:58 sykopomp: In the ease of distributed computing sense! 07:45:21 so not the robust concurrency sense? :) 07:45:32 They kinda go hand in hand. 07:45:56 not necessarily 07:46:28 although I think having something like erlang's cascading errors combined with CL's condition system would be pretty amazing... 07:47:05 In my opinion 'twould be very nice if we had something like the erlanguesqe processes than could run on any node that was hooked up to the system. That's what I'm saying :) 07:47:48 But.. I guess that makes sense. People who have the capability to do that are busy doing other shit :) 07:48:17 schme: It would be nice just to have bridge between Lisp processes and Erlang world 07:48:41 -!- kmc [kmc@clozure-C2F2E195.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kmc] 07:48:44 this way, you could a mesh of Erlang and CL 07:48:55 p_l: there's already production stuff out there that seems to have been pretty successful at hooking up erlang and CL 07:52:19 p_l: Yup that too. 07:52:35 beach, same old -- I want to replace my use of scripting languages by a language with the lambda nature 07:53:06 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-161-130.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:53:26 and on top of that, implement erlang concurrency, persistence, etc. 07:53:52 actually, xcvb itself is a primary target for distribution 07:54:00 That's what I think would be a good focus for .. modernization .. anyway. Somehow to nicely deal with the 48 cores in the average desktop CPU in 5 years, and the distribution of it all between seperate machines (: 07:54:36 since once I have this forking backend, I can fork remotely instead of locally and get erlang-style concurrency 07:54:47 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 07:55:00 woho! 07:55:15 That sounds interesting :( 07:55:17 eh (: 07:55:18 i've been tinkering with erlang a bit, and can say that you also have to mention pattern matching in this talk 07:55:40 guaqua: Does one really need that? 07:55:44 it goes hand in hand with the error handling part 07:56:27 it sort of just fits together. it seems like it could be done without it, too, but i can't come up with a smart way of doing it 07:56:28 schme, sykopomp: There's a C library that contains type converters, protocol and connection interface, designed explicitly for FFI purposes 07:56:31 the receive loops etc 07:56:38 guaqua, I have fare-matcher, so I'm ok for pattern-matching 07:56:50 though one has to look at termite scheme :) 07:57:08 termite doesn't handle process tree killing, does it? 07:57:16 Fare: i'll have to look at it. it's a good abstraction and should be used outside erlang, too 07:57:22 no idea. never installed termite 07:57:48 guaqua: I can't come up with a nicer way either. But I'm sure there is some other way (: 07:57:49 or read through their paper 07:58:17 btw, regarding all extensions... where possible, couldn't we get them implemented as libraries that would shadow standard symbols where needed and use them for CLtL3? 08:02:16 p_l, everything is possible 08:02:33 p_l: now will you help do it? :-/ 08:03:44 -!- mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:04:58 Fare: Where my skills would fit and when I have time/money/accommodation 08:05:32 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-37-191.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:05:45 unfortunately, I wouldn't say I have great skills in let's say "higher level lisp wizardry", nor do I have a place to sleep nor money for food :D 08:06:27 p_l: not just "higher level lisp wizardry" is needed 08:06:42 normal C-style unix hacking skills are most welcome 08:06:57 or any kind of hacking skills really 08:08:17 Fare: Basically, if I had stable conditions to do it, then sure 08:08:23 unix hacking skills a la (while (not works) (headdesk-and-google-more)) 08:08:48 -!- rares [n=rares@174-26-7-168.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 08:09:43 stable conditions? 08:10:09 guaqua, yeah, that too, and discover the correct combination of system calls to achieve an effet 08:11:36 yes. haven't gone that down in unix, but have had my great hacking moments when trying to make mysql's command line client work to my advantage 08:12:30 features and bugs are best documented in a subordinate-clause of a bug-report explanation 08:12:49 or bugs turned into features.. 08:12:58 Fare: meaning not worrying about food every day and a bed to sleep in :) 08:13:17 Fare: unfortunately I kind of fucked my living conditions and I get to reap what I sow 08:13:41 who would have thought that internet access might be easier to get than a bed to sleep in 08:13:47 p_l: nonsense. blame someone else. 08:14:15 heh 08:14:32 anyway, I'm without funds for living and with bad conditions on my last job 08:15:12 c|mell [n=cmell@p5099b4c2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:15:34 come to sweden. life off of wellfare. 08:15:51 though it won't get you a place to live. 08:16:52 schme: kinda hard to do :/ 08:17:48 elvin [n=alf@210.203-211-140.static.qala.com.sg] has joined #lisp 08:18:30 ike1 [n=ike@115.99.45.46] has joined #lisp 08:19:04 -!- ike1 [n=ike@115.99.45.46] has quit [Client Quit] 08:23:25 -!- _8david [n=user@pD9542FC9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:25:28 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.79.63] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:29:54 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-37-191.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:33:35 -!- elvin [n=alf@210.203-211-140.static.qala.com.sg] has left #lisp 08:40:04 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-38-2.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:43:47 -!- bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush 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NNshag [i=user@lns-bzn-43-82-249-155-185.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:26:57 maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:32:36 TR2N- [i=email@89-180-134-224.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 10:35:45 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-143.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:37:13 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 10:38:41 how do I map E to a list (A B C) with my own function (my_func) that takes 2 arguments? i.e., I want- ((my_func E A) (my_func E B) (my_func E C)) 10:39:44 (mapcar (lambda (v) `(my_func ,E ,v)) '(A B C)) ? 10:39:59 (mapcar (lambda (x) (my-func e x)) '(a b c)) ? 10:40:22 brutus, (correct Lisp naming is - instead of _, by the way) 10:40:44 Easier to type and read. 10:40:52 indeed. 10:40:59 Ah, produce a list. Heh. 10:43:34 thanks! 10:43:48 tic....thanks...didn't know that convention...used to C :P 10:44:20 brutus: you can put nearly anything into a symbol name 10:44:51 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:45:31 brutus, see "Formatting Lisp Code" in http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/syntax-and-semantics.html plus the entire chapter on variables -> http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/variables.html 10:46:23 brutus: What are you going to do with the resulting list? 10:47:07 beach, pass it to another of my functions... 10:47:23 brutus, which does what with the list? 10:47:41 brutus: Did you really want (my_func E A) in the list, or the result of calling my_func on E and on A? 10:47:42 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.235.74] has quit [Success] 10:48:06 beach, the latter... 10:48:23 Then you want what I wrote rather than what Zhivago wrote. 10:48:26 brutus: Then what tic said is probably closer to what you want. 10:49:00 brutus: What kind of a function is my_func, i.e., what kind of arguments is it taking? 10:49:19 tic, i'm writing a function that expands boolean expressions using the distributive property...so an n-ary AND gate recursively expands, taking two terms at a time...had to use this mapcar somewhere 10:49:41 beach, two boolean expressions...for eg. (and a b) 10:50:55 basically in boolean logic, a(b+c+d) <=> (ab+ac+ad), so I need a mapcar 10:50:55 (if E list-of-booleans (make-list (length list-of-booleans :initial-value nil))) ? 10:50:58 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:05 s/initial-value/initial-element/ 10:52:31 tic, Zhivago , btw..I was using a #' before my_func...hence the error 10:52:45 That won't cause an error. 10:53:30 Well, depending on where you wrote my_func, I guess. 10:54:29 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@72.226.127.57] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:54:30 to be precise.....(mapcar (lambda (x) (#'expand-binary E1 x)) (cdr E2))), the error is "illegal function call"...here E1 is an atom and E2 is a list 10:55:00 Yes, that would do it. (funcall #'expand-binary E1 x) or (expand-binary E1 x), presumably. 10:55:47 Zhivago, so I was missing a funcall? 10:56:00 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:10 Well, it depends on what my_func is. 10:56:36 If my_func is a function name (e.g., from (defun my_func ...) then #'my_func will get the function object that produces. 10:56:44 In which case funcall is correct. 10:56:56 But, in that case you might as well just write (my_func E1 x) 10:57:00 yes, I have defined expand-binary using defun... 10:57:22 if my_func is a variable holding a function object, then (funcall my_func E1 x) would be correct. 10:58:49 Zhivago, how can (my_func E1 x) work in the lambda list? Don't I have to escape its evaluation using a hash-quote? 10:59:01 That's not what #' does. 10:59:09 'x is (quote x), #'x is (function x) 10:59:19 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:59:35 (function x) produces a function object -- it isn't a quoting mechanism. 10:59:51 e.g., #'+ gives you a function object that can add things together. 11:00:16 hmmm...ok.. 11:00:23 (funcall #'+ 1 2) and (+ 1 2) achieve the same thing somewhat differently. 11:01:13 So think of #' as "get me a function object". 11:01:58 thanks...i understand...#' will provide a function object to funcall 11:02:17 So the question is -- do you need one of those? 11:03:06 -!- TR2N- is now known as TR2N 11:05:30 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:05:54 Zhivago, you mean should I use (lambda (x) (funcall #'expand-binary E2 x)).... or (lambda (x) (expand-binary E2 x))....? 11:06:28 Well, I'd use the second form. 11:06:44 It involves less typing and will probably be more efficient. 11:06:54 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:07:24 But the first one would produce the same result. 11:07:35 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:07:39 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-232-46.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:07:40 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-168-31.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:08:22 Zhivago, shouldn't I be using (mapcar #'(lambda...) and not (mapcar (lambda....))? 11:08:30 Only if you like typing. 11:08:39 (lambda ...) is actually (function (lambda ...)) 11:08:45 Which is the same as #'(lambda ...) 11:08:49 oh...didn't know that 11:08:58 Probably the root of your confusion here. 11:09:15 (lambda ...) produces a function object, so you're right with just that. 11:09:38 ok 11:09:44 There used to be a difference between #'(lambda ...) and (lambda ...) but that disappeared in ansi CL. 11:09:59 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:10:39 joga_ [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 11:10:51 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06f844.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:53 hello 11:12:15 Hello, serichsen. 11:13:39 Zhivago, why does slime give me style-warnings like 'undefined function: my_func' when I make a recursive call? 11:14:38 or if I call a function which is defined after it 11:14:53 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 11:15:01 I have no idea. 11:17:20 brutus: If you recompile, it should not give the warning anymore. At the time it complains, the function is not yet defined. 11:18:31 serichsen, I know...it's interpreted..but the same doesn't happen with Python 11:18:46 I guess that such a case could be handled by the compiler a bit more intelligently. 11:18:54 brutus: what is interpreted? 11:19:12 lisp..isn't it? 11:19:21 oh 11:19:33 Yes, although it gets somewhat more complicated since the interpretation often involves compiling to native code . 11:19:36 its mixed i guess 11:19:55 brutus, most Lisp compilers, well, /compile/, functions directly to native code. 11:20:12 see http://l1sp.org/cl/disassemble 11:20:15 And then interpreter that native code to run it :) 11:20:27 So they're interpreters which extend themselves via native compilation. 11:20:45 For some reason people seem to get embarassed about interpretation. 11:21:02 embarrased? 11:21:54 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:22:05 as if interpretation was a bad thing. 11:22:41 but then, C#, Java and Python are more interpreted than Lisp. They're doing quite well. 11:22:50 Usually people confuse 'interpreted' with slow. 11:23:20 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-124-50.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:23:20 It's justified right...they _are_ slow 11:23:44 slow for what? for calling foreign functions that do the job? 11:23:53 brutus: Utter nonsense. 11:24:08 -!- joga_ is now known as joga 11:24:28 what's a faster interpreted language, than a compiled one? 11:24:30 brutus: Your code is being interpreted by your CPU anyhow. 11:24:45 brutus: Running an interpreter on that effectively gives you a form of compression. 11:25:05 err, how do you figure? 11:25:09 hmmm 11:25:18 Given the cost of high speed caches these days, this can improve locality to the point where the overall performance improves. 11:25:19 sounds more like a second level of indirection. 11:25:34 sheng [n=root@116.22.44.79] has joined #lisp 11:25:51 Just as an example of why that reasoning is fundamentally wrong. 11:26:10 As a more obvious example, interpreting native code is not slower than interpreting native code. 11:26:24 And that's a perfectly reasonable strategy for an interpreter to take. 11:26:57 you have one extra step of dispatch, though.... 11:27:00 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:05 granted, most implementations do a JIT step. 11:27:25 (of the languages that intererpret things) 11:29:28 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-76-166.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:35:36 -!- Plamen [n=pkfrey@80-218-1-142.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:36:24 Plamen [n=pkfrey@80-218-1-142.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:39:28 hm, is EQL-specialization somewhat uncommon? .. it seems like an interesting thing to do wrt. events in a UI context and perhaps in other cases, but it seems both SBCL and CLISP is leaky when doing this kind of thing .. (i do ofc. remove the right method when the specialized on thing is "no longer interesting") 11:41:27 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-124-50.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:43:05 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:47:45 is there some way i can be specific about what specialization of a method i am calling, so that i can call only the method for the base-type for example 11:49:28 -!- maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [] 11:51:55 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-76-166.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:52:40 its type casting, but i'm not sure how you do that in lisp 11:53:26 Why do you want to do this? 11:54:26 it would be convenient 11:54:41 Ah, an entirely information free response ... 11:54:54 Guthur, why do you think you need it? 11:55:05 (i.e., specific use case) 11:55:06 Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 11:56:13 its not a usual case, it really is for convenience, i have a base display method i want to call once because it outputs to the repl, but i have a 3D display method i call many times 11:56:16 so call-next-method doesn't fit 11:56:27 it will just fill the repl 11:57:02 WHEN ? 11:57:36 i'm just trying to reuse the code, i could make it a separate function 11:58:24 the original code just outputted to the repl, i specialised the display function and now render it with opengl 11:58:33 *schme* is not quite understanding the issue. 11:59:02 You want it outputting to the repl view sometimes, and sometimes to the opengl? 11:59:24 And you're not passing the view? 11:59:39 once to the repl, but then every subsequent call it just does the opengl 11:59:46 Oh. 11:59:56 its not an ideal setup but unfortunately i am really short of time 11:59:59 I'd do something nasty like redefine the method after first use ;) 12:00:14 Using a special variable to control behaviour might be a simple hack. 12:00:33 or just stick some (if first-time ... ...) 12:00:33 Zhivago ya i may just go that way 12:00:43 with the Zhivago variable there yea :D 12:00:54 x2cast [n=alvaro@239.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:01:20 special it is, oh my i have so much global state now its giving me nightmares hehe 12:02:17 or pass some optional parameter to it. :repl or so. 12:02:37 -!- Plamen [n=pkfrey@80-218-1-142.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:02:51 would coerce have worked? out of curiosity 12:03:10 No. 12:03:26 you could modify the object after the initial run! change-class. :-) 12:03:45 Coerce works like a C cast. It produces a new value of a given type, if it knows how. 12:04:02 class-that-outputs-things-to-repl, and after the first run you CHANGE-CLASS it into class-that-outputs-things-to-opengl 12:04:14 You don't want to do this -- you're just trying to subvert the dispatch mechanism. 12:04:14 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 12:04:39 You may be able to use the MOP to select the appropriate method for what you want to do. 12:05:06 So many ways to skin the python. 12:05:27 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:28 CL:TMTOWTDI 12:05:40 But using the MOP will probably take you too long to figure out. 12:06:39 hehe they all sound even nastier hacks than the special 12:06:54 well the special works, it was quick and it will have to do 12:07:18 Essentially what you want to do is fairly wrong :) 12:07:48 Pete_R [n=quassel@78.97.98.73] has joined #lisp 12:07:48 scrap it all and redesign, eh? :) 12:07:53 can't wait until after the semester, going to take some time to clean up this code, especially the opengl stuff 12:07:59 schme i have only 4 days 12:08:09 Yeah. special variable it is :) 12:08:10 and i need to write three large essays as well 12:08:15 in 4 days? 12:08:21 ya i know 12:08:25 yikes. 12:08:43 Enjoy your coffee :) 12:09:12 Hi everyone! 12:09:14 hehe indeed caffeine fuelled week, i'm not going to do much more on the app though 12:09:21 Hi Pete_R 12:09:57 How do I specify in lisp something like include in C? 12:10:17 Pete_R: You might want to look into the ASDF. 12:10:40 (load ...) might be useful, otherwise. 12:12:07 minion, tell Pete_R about xach-asdf 12:12:07 Pete_R: please see xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 12:12:42 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-76-166.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 12:12:54 Is there some list of all these nice things one can get minion to tell about? 12:13:19 prxq [n=mommer@g227037085.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:13:30 hi 12:13:45 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 12:13:49 schme, not sure. Try /msg minion help 12:15:42 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@37.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:16:04 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 12:17:14 snearch_ [n=olaf@g225052091.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:17:28 that was helpfull. thanks minion 12:17:40 minion, are you a bot? 12:17:45 minion: chant 12:17:45 MORE ON THE APP 12:20:13 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:21:26 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@33.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:26:40 schme: Unfortunately, all of the small-definitions are stored in a single file somewhere in lisppaste's home directory. 12:27:27 what's a small-definition? 12:27:47 They're the ones that we can add through the IRC interface. 12:28:02 As opposed to the hard-coded ones and the ones that it looks up on cliki. 12:28:23 minion: Help adding? 12:28:28 Hrm. 12:28:31 ah. 12:28:36 maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:28:51 I assumed lispppaste instead of minion, got lost in the context. 12:29:21 Yeah, specbot, minion, and lisppasteN all run in the same lisp instance. 12:29:30 Oh. 12:29:37 As does the lisppaste web site and the XML-RPC server. 12:29:45 -!- maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 12:29:54 nyef: Yeah. I have been talking to minion about this. And (s)he seems to not be aware of any list. 12:30:06 Now why is there no gender neutral (s)he I wonder. 12:30:17 Spivak pronouns? 12:30:31 uuum.. *googles* 12:30:34 how about it? 12:30:42 I mean, how about "it"? 12:30:56 nyef: cools :) I only was aware of finnish having 'em. 12:31:02 prxq: "it" seems so.. inhuman though. 12:31:16 chris2 [n=chris@p5B169D92.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:31:17 So maybe not so good when talking about human specimens (: 12:31:25 Only reason I know about 'em is from LambdaMOO about 15 years ago. 12:31:35 schme: well, it's a bot! :) 12:31:54 minion, are you a bot? 12:31:54 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 12:32:03 prxq: Yeees. in this case. But maybe I talk about people some time. I remember being greatly fussing about it all when I was writing essays on this and that. 12:32:39 nyef: haha. the wikipedia article actually mentions lambdamoo :) 12:33:15 Yeah, just got that far. 12:33:54 schme: ah i see. 12:34:22 prxq: Things does not get batter by me having studied quite a bit of gender science ;) 12:39:12 I remember some paper on a lisp CPU.. anyone have any idea what I'm thinking about here? 12:39:23 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 12:39:35 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-128-119.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:39:46 schme: there were many back in the day when such things were actually built 12:40:15 prxq: coolies. I was thinking of building one now...ish 12:40:47 schme, surely you mean this paper! http://www.springerlink.com/content/65453v3075156398/ 12:41:31 Adlai: I don't think so no. :) 12:42:20 schme: An SECD chip for running scheme, one of the various Symbolics chips, the TI chip, the LMI K-Machine stuff? 12:42:22 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-106-45.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:43:23 nyef: PAPERS 12:43:27 (: 12:43:42 Well, some of them had to have had papers written about them... 12:43:55 *schme* googles some more. 12:43:57 (Particularly the SECD one, wasn't it mentioned in SICP or something?) 12:44:19 -!- x2cast [n=alvaro@239.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has left #lisp 12:48:48 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A19A2.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:50:26 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:52:28 nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 12:56:16 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:57:46 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-183-200.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:04:12 Pete_R_ [n=quassel@78.97.98.73] has joined #lisp 13:05:06 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:05:20 -!- Pete_R [n=quassel@78.97.98.73] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:06:40 with sb-sprof:with-profiling, what is :alloc mode actually showing? 13:07:49 *nyef* confesses to not having felt the need to use a profiler since before sb-sprof appeared. 13:09:12 Guthur pasted "Profile" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91678 13:09:33 is alexandria:ensure-list a massive cost there or am i reading it wrong 13:10:36 Guthur, all that function does is cons, so you might want to look at a call graph and see what is calling it. 13:11:05 50 samples is awful small for a statistical profiling run, isn't it? 13:12:01 i just set max samples 13:12:05 which is 1000 13:12:17 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:12:58 i would love to know what is calling that, its not my code 13:13:14 WHO-CALLS? 13:13:32 Muska [i=Muska@193.238.59.34] has joined #lisp 13:13:45 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.117.137] has joined #lisp 13:13:51 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-24-4.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 13:15:15 nyef is that a profiling function 13:15:29 No, it's an introspection function. 13:16:33 cyberhuman1 [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:16:44 There's even slime support. C-c C-w C-c, or M-x slime-who-calls. 13:16:55 -!- cyberhuman [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:17:33 Or there may be something in terms of the profiler. 13:17:44 That would be a little more directed, at least. 13:17:55 i would have to be in the relevant package to use who-calls, right? 13:18:08 <_3b> (sb-sprof:report :type :graph) ? 13:18:37 <_3b> or :report :graph in with-profiling 13:19:43 Ooh. 13:19:44 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-128-119.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:19:55 As I said earlier, I haven't used a profiler since before sprof showed up. 13:20:12 <_3b> (or see if you can get slime-sprof to do allocation profiling) 13:20:30 Guthur: M-? is slime-edit-uses 13:20:53 which shows you call sites, macro expansion sites, specializing sites etc 13:21:19 i'll give these a whirl 13:21:22 cheers 13:22:07 -!- shrughes [n=shrughes@c-76-118-176-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.5/20091109125225]"] 13:22:22 It depends on your implementation's xref capabilities; for reasons I do not yet know, xref information is not always available in SBCL (even for code which I think is compiled with standard optimization settings) 13:22:38 ah it is CFFI 13:22:43 Pete_R [n=quassel@78.97.98.73] has joined #lisp 13:23:34 thanks guys 13:24:38 Kolyan [n=nartamon@93-81-191-133.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 13:24:50 Heh. window-manager-events are required to take a :sheet initarg, but event-sheet is not specified in terms of anything other than device-events, which are not superclass to window-manager-events. 13:26:11 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-13998.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 13:26:29 *beach* comes back after a nap. 13:26:43 Hello beach. 13:26:49 hey nyef 13:27:16 I'm seriously begining to like the CLIM spec, even with how much damage it has. 13:27:45 nyef: Great! It is not as good as the CLHS, but it's pretty good. 13:27:53 -!- Pete_R_ [n=quassel@78.97.98.73] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:28:18 -!- sheng [n=root@116.22.44.79] has left #lisp 13:28:20 I think I may have reached the point where I need to look at regions and transformations, though. 13:28:26 Or at least regions. 13:29:14 I recently revisited thouse, for the purpose of creating a special case with rectangular, axis-aligned regions with integer coordinates. 13:31:13 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-185-137.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:31:29 mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:12 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 13:33:39 nyef: For what purpose do you need to look at regions? 13:34:27 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:36:56 -!- cyberhuman1 [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:38:16 -!- ampleyfly [n=ampleyfl@fritz.lysator.liu.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:39:34 cyberhuman [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:40:32 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-185-137.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:41:28 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:56 how do I get (a b (c d)) from (a b) and (c d) ? 13:42:23 (list (first l1) (second l1) l2) 13:43:11 tcr, l1 is of variable length, given at runtime... 13:43:28 how do I add a list, as a list to the end of another list? 13:43:31 (append l1 (list l2)) 13:43:49 thanks 13:47:57 brutus: As lists are singly linked in Lisp, that's going to be O(n), so I hope you ain't going to use that in a loop 13:48:21 ampleyfly [n=ampleyfl@fritz.lysator.liu.se] has joined #lisp 13:49:53 tcr, any O(1) way out? 13:50:14 brutus: For that you need to keep a pointer to the last element of the first list. 13:50:36 brutus: Yeah many. 13:50:45 What are you trying to do exactly? 13:51:29 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633626.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:52:11 tcr, exactly that...append l2 to l1, only that the length of l1 increases by 1...so adding l2 as a list 13:52:30 brutus, but in the grand scheme of things? 13:52:40 beach, I'm adding at runtime, so I don't have a pointer 13:53:02 brutus: You are not very good at guessing what others need to know in order to help you out. 13:53:11 brutus, O(1) would be to cons things if you have the end pointer. Or you have an array. 13:53:51 brutus: Why do you want that, though? 13:53:51 ruepel0r [n=rue@77-21-138-135-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:53:51 brutus: If all you have is a list, produced by someone else, that you cannot maintain in any altered way, there is no O(1) solution because you have to traverse the first list. 13:54:02 May make sense for some tree-like structure 13:54:34 righties tree or something :-) 13:54:40 nevermind, I'm not handling large lists...so O(n) won't harm me 13:55:13 Well you could have learned something :-) 13:56:06 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:57:05 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-206-061.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:58:36 brutus: This is a typical conversation here on #lisp. In this case, for instance, we might have gotten you to tell us that it's OK if the list is in the reverse order, so you can add the second one to the beginning instead. But since you are not saying what the "big picture" is, we can't help you. 13:59:01 Yeah. Should put that in the topic. "We 13:59:21 Hm. 13:59:50 "How do I do FOO?" - "Well, like this" - "That's not what I wanted!" - "But it's what you asked for." :-) 14:00:25 That's common too, but that's sort of the opposite case. 14:01:46 beach, I'm sorry, but I'm unclear on a lot of areas of lisp and wish to consolidate these later...I got what I asked for at the moment, but would love to pursue the specifics at a later point in time. 14:02:27 ziga` [n=user@BSN-176-216-63.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:32 Right, tomorrow is monday! Assignments may be due. 14:02:44 brutus, thing is, if you explain what you want to do from a slightly higher view, architecturally, we might be able to give you even better answers. 14:02:47 Which reminds me... :-( 14:03:10 tcr, eek, already? 14:03:10 *tic* wonders where the weekend went. 14:03:26 alphonse [i=47163226@gateway/web/freenode/x-lovyowuedgdcunxj] has joined #lisp 14:03:52 tcr, any fun assignments? 14:03:59 let me check 14:04:51 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:04:55 fibonacci heaps, yummy 14:05:15 beach, tic, I have (and E1 E2 ... En) and want to append (not E) at the end of this list to get (and E1 E2 ... En (not E)) 14:05:24 -!- snearch_ [n=olaf@g225052091.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:06:16 brutus: So isn't this a typical case where (and (not E) E1 ...) would do as well? 14:06:38 not if AND is short-circuiting :-) 14:06:40 Yay. Driveway clear of snow. 14:06:42 brutus, is this "and" that you're generating a short-circuiting and (like in CL or C) or is it logical? 14:06:49 nyef, snow! *envy* 14:06:51 s/logical/functional/ 14:07:02 tic: *horrors* :) 14:07:03 it doesn't matter if it's short circuiting or not 14:07:15 beach, that would do as well...consing would be a better idea :-) 14:07:18 beach, haha. snow is white! better than all of this gray. 14:07:19 tic: Envy? My shoulders hurt from the unaccustomed exercise of shovelling. 14:07:24 brutus: See, I told you so! 14:07:25 nyef, I'll trade ya 14:07:38 brutus: In fact, I even guessed that the order was not important. 14:07:53 nyef: Clearly it must snow more so you grow custom :-) 14:08:00 beach, hehe...that _was_ good :-) 14:08:00 tic: In two weeks, I'll get even better. 14:08:10 beach, 'nam? 14:08:12 tcr: It -will-. But probably not heavily until 2010. 14:08:41 tic: Yeah. 14:08:48 beach: Going back a bit, I'm looking at regions and whatnot with an eye towards implementation. 14:08:58 beach, awesome. 14:09:07 tic: Yeah, can't wait. 14:09:08 or maybe, envysome. 14:09:11 beach, mhm. 14:09:17 nyef: That sounds interesting. Care to explain more? 14:09:29 Adlai, shortcircuiting one 14:10:40 brutus: do you build the list yourself? 14:11:08 adeht, the and list? yes 14:11:40 brutus: so add expressions to the head and in the end, reverse 14:11:47 brutus, I guess the issue is more whether order matters, and that has been resolved already. 14:11:49 brutus: Then why did you say you couldn't have a pointer to the tail? 14:12:37 beach, sorry, I meant I wasn't maintaining one...I can have a pointer :-) 14:15:04 brutus: Do you already program in some other languages? 14:16:04 splittist` [n=dmurray@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 14:16:06 morning 14:16:24 beach, I've had some novice C exposure 14:16:35 hello splittist` 14:16:54 splittist`: what happened to you nick? 14:17:50 nyef: There are some things you cannot do with regions the way they are represented in CLIM, for instance implementing region-contains-region-p (I think that's what it is called) for arbitrary regions. 14:20:21 -!- joast 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irc.freenode.net] 14:20:26 -!- lupine_85 [n=quassel@unaffiliated/lupine-85/x-7392152] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:20:26 -!- trittweiler [n=tcr@atradig113.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:20:26 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:20:28 nyef: gilberth had an idea that might work; represent regions as (say) y-banded segments where each band is bounded by two horizontal straight lines, and two curves that can be either lines or elliptic paths. 14:20:51 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:20:51 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633626.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:20:51 -!- Pete_R [n=quassel@78.97.98.73] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:20:51 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@37.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [calvino.freenode.net 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[n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 14:22:39 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-230-238.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:39 cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 14:22:39 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1279405664.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:25:14 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-41-30.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:26:33 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B169D92.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:27:02 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 14:28:30 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.215.246] has joined #lisp 14:28:56 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.215.26] has joined #lisp 14:29:33 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:30:40 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has joined #lisp 14:30:54 Hrm... Okay, one thing I'm not impressed with: Regions are described in chapter 3, designs are described in chapter 13, regions are defined to be subclasses of designs. 14:31:14 (Regions are clearly uniform, solid, colorless designs.) 14:31:29 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 14:31:36 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-134-224.net.novis.pt] has quit [Success] 14:32:00 TR2N [i=email@89.180.181.69] has joined #lisp 14:34:42 myrkraverk` [n=johann@85-220-126-94.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 14:35:25 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@77-21-138-135-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:36:04 -!- Muska [i=Muska@193.238.59.34] has quit [No route to host] 14:37:43 ... Did I say uniform? They're non-uniform, unless they're +everywhere+. 14:40:12 I might dispense with much of this. 14:41:37 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-135.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:45 -!- jmbr_ is now known as jmbr 14:42:58 -!- cyberhuman [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:43:30 <_deepfire> nyef, wrt. reimplementation: you have one fanboi, if you care about such things. 14:43:33 antoszka [n=antoszka@lemongrass.antoszka.pl] has joined #lisp 14:43:45 ... Really? 14:43:51 Not a big McCLIM fan? 14:44:11 Pete_R_ [n=quassel@78.97.98.73] has joined #lisp 14:44:12 <_deepfire> It's a love/hate relationship, really. 14:44:42 Ah. 14:45:41 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:46:06 Regions and transformations are pretty damn solid in McCLIM though. 14:46:11 cyberhuman [n=xvro@imx194.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:46:21 It's more the designs that I'm worried about. 14:46:45 nyef: Now I am *really* interested, because that's what I have been working on for CLIM3. 14:46:59 What, better designs or no designs? 14:47:04 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 14:47:19 nyef: A merge of the concept of sheet, design, and output record. 14:47:19 -!- myrkraverk`` [n=johann@157-157-186-208.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:47:34 That's... frightening. 14:47:44 It would make things easier. 14:48:24 And it's one of the suggestions in a "major issue" in the spec. 14:49:12 Heeey... can you embed one application into another by using with-output-as-gadget? 14:49:48 Or maybe just some use of invoke-with-new-output-record? 14:50:05 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 14:50:33 That doesn't sound like the right way. 14:50:44 Probably isn't. 14:50:51 nyquist` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 14:51:09 Really, the right way is to pretend to be a frame manager. 14:51:24 Yeah, something like that. 14:51:35 And when the time comes for realization, just drop the toplevel pane in where you want it. 14:51:46 And pass the buck on all abstract pane realization. 14:52:06 Sounds right. 14:52:27 Do we have a pane that can act as a frame manager? 14:52:35 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357050.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:53:30 I think all that needs to happen for that is to implement a couple methods on an object. 14:53:49 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 14:54:20 Right, I don't think it's hard, but such a pane would be useful in itself. It could pass one space requirements to the top-level pane of the embedded applications, and such. 14:55:01 To pretend to be a frame manager, you use frame-manager as a mixin, implement frame-manager-frames, adopt-frame, disown-frame, the frame-state stuff... 14:55:36 Okay, seems it's not quite simple, though it is straightforward. 14:55:41 What about space requirements? 14:56:26 -!- Pete_R [n=quassel@78.97.98.73] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:57:42 It looks like this is somewhat implementation-dependant, as the amount of hand-holding done isn't specified. 14:57:44 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-78-176.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:58:31 (Or is it? Maybe reading between the lines tells us...) 15:02:46 -!- Pete_R_ [n=quassel@78.97.98.73] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:03:12 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has joined #lisp 15:04:37 bfein_ [n=bfein@pool-74-104-157-229.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:44 -!- nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:10:06 Oh, look at that. A license to define the coordinate type as (signed-byte 16) or sillier. 15:10:58 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.162.141] has joined #lisp 15:12:34 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 15:13:41 buescher [n=buescher@71.181.162.240] has joined #lisp 15:13:47 -!- buescher is now known as brentb 15:13:51 clim make-pattern 15:13:51 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/14-2.html#_738 15:13:57 Right. 15:18:56 -!- splittist` [n=dmurray@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:20:11 benny [n=benny@i577A336E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:21:15 -!- mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:22:14 Actually, I think my feelings about this design stuff can be summed up as "it's clever, but what the heck is it doing in my GUI toolkit?!?" 15:23:46 I think I'd apply that to the rotation transformations as well. 15:24:14 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@37.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:24:26 Scaling, translation, reflection, fine. Rotation, WTF? 15:24:28 splittist [n=dmurray@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 15:24:30 re 15:24:35 Hello splittist 15:24:49 TR2N- [i=email@89-180-159-159.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 15:32:16 jmbr [n=jmbr@53.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:32:43 And now I know why I feel that way. 15:32:50 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-12-43.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:33:10 About half of this stuff I associate with a 3D environment like OpenGL. 15:33:23 And the other half I associate with a 2D windowing system. 15:33:57 And there's bloody -texture mapping- specified in here. 15:34:29 And some of the region things feel like drawing commands in disguise. 15:36:04 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.181.69] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:36:21 It's a Whole Sort Of General Mish-Mash, mixing about three different domains, and isn't very coherent about it or its restrictions. 15:36:53 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:37:08 perhaps the conventional distinctions between domains is wrong 15:37:33 Perhaps, but this mapping just -doesn't fit-. 15:37:40 -!- TR2N- is now known as TR2N 15:38:06 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 15:39:13 -!- bpr [n=user@cpe-72-231-172-136.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:41:10 mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:43 hmm my fan just got really loud 15:42:00 annoyingly loud 15:42:11 so I'm trying to get a lisp IDE up on my windows box (because my only linux box is my work box, and I'm too lazy to dual boot linux, since my current HD structure is NTFS, and running software RAID), and anyway, I tried cygwin, and got far enough to get emacs, slime, a repl up, etc. But whenever I compile a file I segfault. (Compiling a form is fine) 15:42:15 so I tried MinGW 15:42:23 but I can't build there because it claims not to have gcc 15:43:14 bfein_: I'm going to suggest a linux VM on virtualbox, vmware, etc. 15:43:14 anyone know a good way to get SBCL running on a windows box? Or should I just suck it up and dual boot linux? 15:43:31 hmm, that could work 15:43:44 Clearly, sbcl/win32 needs more love. 15:45:27 nyquist`` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 15:46:53 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357050.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:51:03 bfein_: why not use the precompiled binary? 15:51:47 splittist: I could I suppose... but I hadn't thought of nyef's suggestion, and a VM would make me happier I think, as then I'd get all the nice linux tools 15:53:05 jedbrown [n=jed@vawpc43.ethz.ch] has joined #lisp 15:54:00 dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-132-170.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:55:41 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-19-244.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:55:47 bfein_: that is almost certainly true 15:56:11 gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-229-37-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has joined #lisp 15:56:52 memory faulting (on COMPILE-FILE and other things) is normal behaviour for sbcl/win32, I think, no matter whether the binary is self-compiled or not 15:57:02 lichtblau: It is? 15:57:15 Since when? 15:57:43 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-57-108.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:57:58 yet another reason to go with the VM 15:58:03 -!- brentb [n=buescher@71.181.162.240] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:59:53 -!- gugamilare [n=gugamila@201-75-229-37-am.cpe.vivax.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:59:57 nyef: since the port exists. But I could be misremembering: perhaps it's a GC assertion actually. 16:00:33 The thing is, I don't remember ever having a problem with compile-file. 16:00:44 -!- nyquist` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:01:08 Admittedly, that doesn't say much, as I rarely need to use it and probably don't stress it at all. 16:01:53 well, I was also trying to use emacs 23 through cygwin, everything through cygwin. And I was using clisp at the time (I found that it didn't implement frame-source-location, at least with the version available for cygwin, which was enough to put me off it) 16:02:46 The segfault thing is really a bit much. 16:03:00 bfein_: the lisp impl of choice on windows is clozure if you want something that just works 16:03:33 or one of the commercial implementations 16:04:01 I find sbcl/w32 fine for my modest hacking needs. I'm just not used the clozure install/update process, so I find it comparatively painful. 16:04:11 Had I not been a heavy linux user, things might have been different... but I also might not have gotten into SBCL in the first place. 16:05:09 *lichtblau* wonders whether the gc assertion at the beginning of http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/e1691be8d0e72be8 has been fixed or not, but doesn't have have a windows to test on 16:08:26 *nyef* fires up virtualbox. 16:08:47 buescher [n=buescher@71.181.249.91] has joined #lisp 16:09:02 -!- buescher is now known as brentb 16:09:49 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-12-43.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:10:49 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:11:24 -!- envi_home2 [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:11:49 blackwolf [n=blackwol@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:03 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-75-95.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:12:51 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-132-170.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 16:13:05 nyef pasted "I don't think I'm worried about that GC invariant" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91681 16:16:37 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:17:24 -!- nyquist`` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:17:58 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Success] 16:22:27 Muska [i=Muska@193.238.59.34] has joined #lisp 16:23:13 -!- azu [i=azure@s2.org] has left #lisp 16:24:25 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:24:38 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-30-202-180.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:29:11 Tordek [n=tordek@host26.190-226-112.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 16:29:43 Okay, I have Foley, van Dam, Feiner, Hughes, but I don't seem to have anything hardcopy on OpenGL. 16:32:06 <_3b> old versions of some of the GL books are available aonline at opengl.org 16:32:34 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 16:33:59 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-43-82-249-155-185.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:04 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has joined #lisp 16:37:40 is there a standard way to see if one plist is a subset of a second? 16:38:23 mcspiff: two loops and a hash table, I assume. 16:38:29 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 16:38:48 what's "subset" here? 16:38:48 a subset, or a common tail? 16:39:08 Krystof: subset 16:39:23 Krystof: I'm not concerned about orderings 16:39:28 then "no" 16:39:56 alright 16:40:31 any time you start thinking about sets, if efficiency is a concern you probably want either a hash table or a tree 16:41:09 davazp` [n=user@133.Red-88-1-101.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:14 Not overly concerned about efficiency. Actually the opposite. I'm using a plist to store key-value pairs. Two of them get passed to a function, and I need to verify that the one is a subset of the other. The first might have additional key-values, so I can't directly compare them. If that makes sense 16:42:39 why do you need to? 16:43:39 "get passed to a function" in a list argument, or is the function applied to the plist? 16:43:49 I'm verifying that the first arg is a consistent state to procede with the operation 16:43:53 -!- Muska [i=Muska@193.238.59.34] has quit [No route to host] 16:44:34 tcr: The function is actually passed two clos objects, both of which have a slot with a plist stored in it. 16:45:51 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 16:46:19 Think of it in terms of the old quake games. When you go to open a door, the game first checks to see if the door requires any keys. If it does, the game then verifies that the player has the required keys. If these conditions are met, the door opens. 16:46:19 sg2002 [n=kvirc@d24-150-222-71.home.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:20 -!- mutew [n=mutew@c-69-251-40-32.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:47:04 thats the idea I'm trying to capture, if I wasn't clear before. I'm not overly concerned with using plists or hashtables. Whatever is the easiest way to do it 16:47:08 WTF? Okay, PATH and all of its subclasses must die. 16:47:42 I'm not supporting a general geometry framework here. 16:48:35 Ugh. Rewrite all of Emacs useful features just to get modality, or implement modality in Emacs? Decisions, decisions. 16:48:51 slash_ [n=unknown@p5DD1D367.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:16 3) forget about modality 16:49:21 nowai! 16:49:38 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 16:57:22 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-30-202-180.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:57:44 -!- davazp [n=user@133.Red-88-1-101.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:58:32 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-243-15.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:58:35 -!- pem is now known as pemryan 16:59:44 Actually, the way to save the utility of the path regions is to have a notion of drawing the path with a particular pen... 17:00:21 ... But I still get this feeling of "what the hell are these operations doing in a GUI toolkit?!?" 17:00:59 so is CLIM 3 coming soon? 17:01:01 :) 17:01:32 I wouldn't know. 17:01:45 I'm having enough trouble with CLIM 2. 17:03:07 -!- thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-67-109-95.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:08:06 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-13998.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:13:26 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:13:42 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-6-45.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 17:15:15 nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:16:04 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 17:16:33 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:11 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-243-15.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:21:56 thom__ [n=thom@pool-173-67-109-95.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:00 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 17:31:06 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:32:04 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-39-194.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:33:58 ziga`: I'm going with a NO. But hey.. what is "soon" in lisp land anyway? 17:34:35 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 17:36:48 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:38:25 I just know that SBCL is "soon" getting threads on win32 17:38:47 so my grandchildren will be able to use them 17:39:03 when they visit the Microsoft Museum 17:39:27 in New New Hampshire 17:39:49 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-43-82-249-155-185.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:40:34 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-24-82-64-168-246.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:49 -!- alphonse [i=47163226@gateway/web/freenode/x-lovyowuedgdcunxj] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:42:39 alphonse [i=47163226@gateway/web/freenode/x-lovyowuedgdcunxj] has joined #lisp 17:45:22 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 17:47:33 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:18 -!- alphonse [i=47163226@gateway/web/freenode/x-lovyowuedgdcunxj] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:49:27 alphonse [i=47163226@gateway/web/freenode/x-lovyowuedgdcunxj] has joined #lisp 17:53:11 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-39-194.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:53:42 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.215.246] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:56:34 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-6-45.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:57:03 -!- blackwolf [n=blackwol@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:59:21 -!- davazp` [n=user@133.Red-88-1-101.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:00:56 *tcr* is bitten again by shared variable and function namespace in another language... 18:02:22 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:02:47 -!- thom__ [n=thom@pool-173-67-109-95.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:03:22 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:03:25 thom__ [n=thom@pool-173-67-109-95.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:25 maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:04:29 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 18:07:52 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-134-181.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:09:35 komar_ [n=komar_@antikvar.static.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 18:09:45 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:57 -!- komar_ [n=komar_@antikvar.static.corbina.ru] has left #lisp 18:10:19 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 18:12:15 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:12:27 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 18:15:22 nyef: what are you doing with all this graphics stuff? 18:16:06 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-134-181.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:16:11 ruediger_ [n=quassel@91-115-16-54.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:16:40 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-134-181.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:17:13 slyrus: did you see ch-image prominent in the new book? 18:17:26 Xach: i did indeed. very nice to see. 18:17:52 although I suppose I'm going to have to some cleanup work on it before the book comes out... 18:18:30 Xach: how's the Maniean pre-winter treating you? 18:23:39 I have a function my_func that returns either atoms or lists. I want to execute (mapcar my_func some_list) in such a way that I get just a list of atoms, such as (a b c d e), instead of a mixed list like (a (b c) (d e)). Is there an easy way to solve this? 18:23:52 Muska [i=Muska@193.238.59.34] has joined #lisp 18:23:56 flatten the list afterwards. 18:24:16 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:25:05 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:17 shrughes [n=shrughes@c-76-118-176-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:11 easiest way tould be for my-func to always return lists, even if it has only one item in it, and then map #'concatenate in sequence. 18:28:17 er, #'append 18:29:37 tic, hmmm...sounds good 18:29:56 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-182-1.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:31:07 Pete_R [n=quassel@78.97.98.73] has joined #lisp 18:31:08 (mapcar #'append (mapcar #'my-func some-list)), but I'm sure there's a better way of accomplishing it. 18:31:49 tic, that won't work in my case, because I want to flatten only a selected few sublists, and not all of them... 18:32:15 brutus, give us, for the different cases, input and the corresponding expected output. 18:32:36 put it up at paste.lisp.org/new/lisp. That way we can easier understand and analyze what it is you want. 18:33:55 Hello again! 18:34:10 For eg., I don't want to flatten (and (not a) b c) into (and not a b c), but I wan't to flatten (and (a b) (not c)) into (and a b (not c)).....basically, I just want to flatten only those sublists that do not have their 'car' as and/or/not 18:34:28 is there a Lisp way to loop over a list and print elements separated with comma except the last one? 18:34:35 tic, am I clear? 18:34:45 plutonas` [n=plutonas@port-92-195-76-166.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:35:07 plutonas`, (format t "~{~A~^,~}" my-list) :-) 18:35:32 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.30] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:35:39 brutus: What about (a (b (c d))) ? 18:35:44 brutus, ah. that should be easy enough. 18:35:44 slyrus: kids are digging it. 18:35:52 schme, will never happen? 18:36:04 tic: not is possible! dice is cheat! 18:36:08 tic: map append!? 18:36:12 schme, :D 18:36:14 tic: mapcan? 18:36:18 Xach, eep? :-( 18:36:23 *tic* hides in the corner of shame 18:36:31 tic: what? 18:36:39 plutonas`, that does what you asked for. 18:36:44 tic: sorry. there is this guy on a backgammon site that gets upset about the dice all the time and keeps going not is possible! etc. 18:36:44 schme, I'll never come across that case...it's just one level of lists 18:36:53 tic: i didn't ask for anything in this channel for months 18:36:58 brutus: cools. So I'm thinking some COND clause. 18:37:00 plutonas`, oops. 18:37:09 Odin- [n=sbkhh@194-144-58-124.du.xdsl.is] has joined #lisp 18:37:14 Pete_R, the FORMAT recipe above was directed at you. 18:37:22 :-) 18:37:28 schme, awesome. 18:37:28 heyo plutonas` 18:37:46 brutus: Why do you come up with (and (a b) (not c)) in the first place? 18:37:56 tic: Yes yes. like it's so very totally uncomman that double 6's happen three times in a row >< 18:38:26 schme, broken random-state! 18:38:49 Xach, thanks. it's a large vocabulary, indeed. 18:38:51 tic, thx 18:39:01 Pete_R, check out the format chapter in PCL. 18:39:02 tcr, somewhere in my calculations I was getting an unnecessary structure like (and (and a b) c), instead of just (and a b c)....to solve that I had to recursively purge the expression 18:39:15 hey schme, how are you? 18:39:23 rares [n=rares@174-26-7-168.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:29 plutonas`: doing great :) what's up with the plutonas` ? 18:39:40 -!- rares [n=rares@174-26-7-168.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 18:40:00 tcr, as of now the code looks pretty dirty :-) 18:40:58 schme: the second nickname you mean? i experience some stupid freezes 18:41:10 schme, what could I do with cond here? 18:41:13 tic, actually I do something like (loop for f in list do (progn (format t "~a" f) (rec-function f) (format t ",")) 18:41:14 plutonas`: nono .I'm just wondering if life is treating you good. 18:41:26 and I want this last "," not to be printed 18:41:32 ooh yes, schme, i can't complain 18:41:39 brutus: Well maybe switch on those there and/or/not or somesuch. 18:41:41 -!- maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [] 18:41:48 everything is nice, i don't know if i told you i moved away from sweden... am in germany now 18:41:53 I know I can go to (- 1 (list-length)) 18:42:00 plutonas`: coolies :) 18:42:05 but it doesn't seem lisp like :) 18:42:10 plutonas`: I wish I moved away from sweden! it too cold. 18:42:39 hehe, it's not much warmer here 18:42:45 Pete_R: I bet you could do it all with just format. 18:42:58 (and rec-function) 18:43:00 plutonas`, how about collecting into a list and then do what I wrote? 18:43:17 meh! 18:43:20 silly tab-complete. 18:43:20 schme, should I put a paste on pastebin? :P 18:43:25 Pete_R, do so. 18:43:49 rares [n=rares@174-26-7-168.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:08 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:26 is there a way to reload all the files used previous before the computer crashed? 18:44:30 tic: haha 18:44:40 er i mean in #emacs 18:44:51 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.213.114] has joined #lisp 18:45:07 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-76-166.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:45:43 Pete_R pasted "Feature Structure pretty print" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91686 18:45:50 -!- rares [n=rares@174-26-7-168.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 18:46:37 Pete_R: do == PROGN. You don't need the PROGN there :) 18:46:41 tic, maybe I could write (mapcar #'my-append (mapcar #'my-func some-list)...where my-append is defined by me? 18:46:56 or so I seem to remember ehehe 18:47:17 brutus, I don't think that would do it, no, as you have (and (a b)) => (and a b), right? 18:47:41 tic, yes 18:47:50 Pete_R, first off, both LET and IF have implicit PROGNs 18:48:39 didn't knew that :) 18:48:40 *schme* is with the tic and the collecting and cooking it with the format recipe :) 18:48:46 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 18:49:21 Pete_R: pprint-logical-block 18:49:29 and pprint-exit-if-list-exhausted 18:49:52 Pete_R, but I guess you could just do something like (unless (= (-1 (cell-element-ftab heap-element) number-of-elements))) (format t ", ")) or similar. but the whole function looks suspicious. 18:50:23 move that -1 slightly to the right, but you get it. 18:50:39 tic, why is that? and what should i refactor? 18:50:57 Pete_R, your code just looks overly complicated. 18:51:21 Pete_R: essentially, everything 18:51:51 I'm open to refactoring proposals :) 18:52:11 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.195.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:52:19 I'd collect things in the loop and then use a FORMAT thingy to blast out the list in the end. 18:52:36 No, you should use pprint-logical-block for that 18:53:13 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-134-181.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:53:23 tic: if doesn't have an implicit PROGN. 18:53:24 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229163014.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 18:53:28 tic: DO does, if that's what you meant. 18:53:36 sykopomp, you're right. I'm thinking of when. Thanks./ 18:53:48 *tic* decides it's time to do something to avoid further confusion. 18:53:58 DON'T JUMP 18:54:05 :) 18:54:09 (rofl) 18:54:51 bx7 [n=bx7@188.50.62.165] has joined #lisp 18:54:56 Pete_R: so the LET PROGN and the LOOP PROGN you can just move away. :) 18:55:25 schme, I'm on it right now :) 18:56:55 stipet [n=user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:00:54 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-35-232-140.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 19:01:01 sykopomp annotated #91686 "next step is some format magic" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91686#1 19:01:34 -!- hicx174 [n=hicx174@123.108.171.227] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:02:13 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 19:03:45 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-151-196-119-7.balt.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:04:48 Pete_R: I suggest to name your stuff better 19:05:15 tcr, can you please give me an example? 19:05:17 Pete_R: and to write accessor functions, calling aref and nth directly is not good 19:05:37 what does (nth (cell-element-ftab heap-element) *frame-heap*) do? 19:05:50 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-162-159.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:06:00 what's cell-element-sort? does that sort it arguments? 19:06:17 or is it rather "cell-element-type"? 19:07:20 *frame-heap* is a list containing lists of structures having 2 slots - feature and term 19:07:37 heap-element is an element of another collection 19:08:19 and it's data type is a struct with 3 slots - sort,cref and ftab 19:08:26 That's implementation details. Try to come up with descriptive names 19:09:16 I couldn't come with something more descriptive than these (blush) 19:11:36 tcr, how should i write those accessor functions? 19:11:38 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483CC97.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:39 I'd also question the need for a *frame-heap*. 19:12:41 Pete_R: I have no idea. Perhaps you should first tell us what you're actually doing, first some bits about the bit picture, then about that code in question 19:12:50 big picture 19:13:59 -!- thom__ [n=thom@pool-173-67-109-95.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:15:17 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-57-108.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:15:26 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-57-108.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:15:34 tcr: I'm writing a Feature Structure unification algorithm, based on specifications from Hassan Ait Kaci. It's a project for my faculty. 19:16:02 Is there someone who's fluent in Lisp? 19:16:22 nope (blush) 19:16:56 Why do they want a Lisp implementation? 19:17:02 I decided to implement it in Lisp because I wanted to learn Lisp beter :) 19:17:03 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@194-144-58-124.du.xdsl.is] has quit [] 19:17:34 Ah cool 19:17:38 :) 19:17:47 nyef: might be useful. You get two real FFTs for the price of one complex FFT and some additinal frobbing. 19:18:25 Pete_R: I suggest to defer that project for two or three months 19:19:09 davazp [n=user@106.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:00 Pete_R: If you read Practical Common Lisp already, I suggest to spend some time reading and playing with existing CL code first 19:21:10 tcr, I'm afraid I don't have that possibility :) I've been working on it for 2 weeks now, and it is due next friday 19:21:40 we only had 3 weeks of schedule for this project 19:22:46 pkhuong: wouldn't adding a mechanism to lock classes and genfuns + prevent subclassing be enough to statically-compile clos? 19:23:39 Odin- [n=sbkhh@194-144-58-124.du.xdsl.is] has joined #lisp 19:26:06 sykopomp: depends on your objectives. 19:26:31 -!- sg2002 [n=kvirc@d24-150-222-71.home.cgocable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:26:56 thom__ [n=thom@pool-173-67-109-95.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:33 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@194-144-58-124.du.xdsl.is] has quit [Client Quit] 19:33:28 Odin- [n=sbkhh@194-144-58-124.du.xdsl.is] has joined #lisp 19:33:43 -!- stipet [n=user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 19:33:46 -!- thom__ [n=thom@pool-173-67-109-95.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:33:54 stipet [n=user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:34:47 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@93-81-191-133.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:35:40 Pete_R: Not much help for you current project, but check out PAIP when you have the time. Excellent book, and seems like you could easily handle it too :) 19:36:24 schme: it's already on my to do list :) 19:36:31 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 19:36:42 Pete_R: excellent (: and good luck there with your thingie 19:37:17 hicx174 [n=hicx174@123.108.171.227] has joined #lisp 19:38:27 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@194-144-58-124.du.xdsl.is] has quit [] 19:39:05 Odin- [n=sbkhh@194-144-58-124.du.xdsl.is] has joined #lisp 19:39:35 thanks :) Anyway, I'm thankfull to all of you on this channel. I couldn't even make this far without you! And since I'm at this point, I must finish the project :D 19:40:14 won't bail my parantheses :D 19:40:21 -!- stipet [n=user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 19:41:13 -!- Muska [i=Muska@193.238.59.34] has quit [Client Quit] 19:41:32 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 19:41:41 -!- Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:42:17 Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 19:46:37 how do I break a loop in slime? 19:47:08 C-c over and over I think 19:47:24 just once? 19:47:39 C-c C-c i mean 19:47:53 I've entered an infinite loop :| 19:48:12 Pete_R: C-c C-c should break it, me thinks. 19:48:20 maybe not on windows? 19:48:25 C-c C-c in the repl or C-c C-b from the lisp file should interrupt it 19:48:25 are you on windows? 19:48:30 I'm on Kubuntu 19:48:34 hmmm 19:48:46 snearch [n=olaf@g225061006.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:48:58 I've disconected slime :| 19:49:12 sometimes you are printing some ridiculously huge amount of stuff. Then you can't interrupt with C-c C-c 19:49:17 What is your *inferior-lisp* buffer like? 19:49:29 sounds like your lisp crashed, to me :) 19:49:39 then kill -SIGINT 19:49:50 schme: I have no idea :| 19:50:11 Pete_R: You can look at it in emacs. 19:51:29 I don't want to look like a total noob, but *inferior-lisp* has a lot of startup stuff printed :) 19:52:05 ho hum 19:52:15 well maybe just kill the lisp process and start over (: 19:52:47 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:53:07 schme: that is what I did :) 19:53:34 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@194-144-58-124.du.xdsl.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 19:54:24 btw, Is there something like step-into and step-over debugging commands in slime? 19:55:05 Pete_R: press h while in the debugger 19:56:07 stassats, and how do i set a breakpoint? 19:56:13 clhs break 19:56:14 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_break.htm 19:56:37 stepping might not really work as expected, though 19:57:10 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-162-159.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:57:29 why is that? 19:57:52 i don't know 20:05:34 rwiker [n=rwiker@73.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:05:51 msg NickSerb identify rw1ker 20:06:09 msg NickServ identify rw1ker 20:06:15 whoops 20:06:18 rwiker, you may be missing a / 20:06:22 nice password 20:06:25 right :-) 20:06:51 good thing this wasn't one of my important passwords :-) 20:07:37 so, whata's happening today, apart from certain fools exposing their passwords? 20:08:01 rwiker: app building 20:08:28 what would it take to prevent lisp from paying attention to : and :: in symbol names? 20:08:53 hacking your lisp 20:09:00 Krystof: custom reader, then? 20:09:16 -!- davazp [n=user@106.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:09:21 you can't do it portably, that's for certain 20:09:31 that's fine. Portability is not a huge issue. 20:10:30 sykopomp: |foo:bar| maybe? 20:10:37 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:10:57 foo\:bar 20:11:22 (defun |foo:bar| (x) (+ 1 x)) atleast worked just fine for me 20:11:42 with |foo:bar| being on package common-lisp-user 20:12:15 -!- brentb [n=buescher@71.181.249.91] has quit ["Started wasting time elsewhere"] 20:12:27 schme: the idea is to provide a package that prevents users from accessing other packages altogether. 20:13:10 how unlispy 20:13:17 indeed 20:13:28 sykopomp, you mean to provide a reader 20:13:32 or rather a syntax 20:13:37 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:38 'morning 20:13:45 Adlai: well, users would be dropped into a package :) 20:14:03 right, but the package isn't what prevents them from accessing other packages -- that's what the hacked reader does 20:14:13 *Adlai* is nitpicking :) 20:14:14 right 20:14:16 create a custom read-table, and shadow *package*? 20:15:03 rwiker, the question is whether a custom readtable can let you prevent access to other packages. I think it can. 20:15:06 and list-all-packages? and loop? 20:15:07 are : and :: in the domain of the readtable? I thought having a custom reader would do the trick. 20:15:08 (but I'm not sure) 20:15:25 stassats: yup :\ 20:15:28 and find-symbol, and intern, and whatsoever 20:15:35 yup yup 20:15:55 what for? 20:16:25 stassats, once you can't reference other packages, you could only access those if they were imported into the current package. 20:16:27 stassats: A compromise between writing my own dialect, and providing a sandboxed lisp. 20:16:54 so I'm going for "reasonably sandboxed". 20:18:26 unreasonably, you mean? 20:18:40 no, I mean reasonably. 20:19:18 i could live without package functions, but not wihout LOOP, unless you want to rewrite it 20:19:53 stassats, how does LOOP depend on the package system? 20:20:00 Adlai: it can iterate over packages. 20:20:15 rewriting loop! Oh, what fun 20:20:19 oh, that's not a problem 20:20:28 SBCL and CCL both use an extensible LOOP macro 20:20:46 Adlai: does that involve removing clauses from LOOP altogether?... 20:20:46 I'm guessing that it's "de-extensible" with much less pain than rewriting LOOP 20:21:18 Adlai: (funcall (loop for symbol being the symbol when (string= symbol "PRINT") return symbol) "HELLO!") 20:21:56 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-109-110.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:22:05 (funcall (loop for symbol being the symbol in "CL" when (string= symbol "PRINT") return symbol) "HELLO!") rather 20:22:10 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-109-110.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:51 -!- prxq [n=mommer@g227037085.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:23:03 right. it's pretty simple to have a loop macro that screens that out before expanding into CL:LOOP 20:23:56 hm. That's true. 20:24:26 demmeln [n=Adium@p5B0C57EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:33 so, just to make sure: You need your own reader in order to prevent package prefixes from being used, correct? 20:24:46 prxq [n=mommer@g226149081.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:25:42 No, just make #\: a terminating macro-character instead of a constituent. 20:25:44 fwiw: there was a discussion on openmcl-devel about this in June 2009 20:26:34 md11 [n=user@chello089173014026.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 20:27:02 nyef: oh hey. That's a good point... 20:28:30 For more fun, see if you can recognize when a package prefix has just been stomped from having had the token terminated by the #\: and attempt to reconstruct the original token in order to validate package prefixes against a whitelist. 20:28:30 you also need to override all mechanisms that let you access symbols in other packages, from obvious things like #'intern to loop 20:28:44 Yeah, yeah. That's simple enough. 20:29:06 yeah. 20:30:04 Ah! I know how to deal with that prefix thing. Override #\( and use some trick to get character counts of things read. If there's no trailing whitespace and the next token starts with a #\:, you've got a package prefix. 20:30:09 and limiting resources usage 20:30:49 sykopomp: Do want to exclude ::, or : in general? 20:30:49 nyef: http://clozure.com/pipermail/openmcl-devel/2009-June/009845.html Apparently, set-macro-character didn't work for this guy. 20:30:56 tcr: both. 20:31:10 I just want to provide a single package that users have access to, and nothing else. 20:31:13 sykopomp: set the character syntax of #\: to :invalid 20:31:33 -!- delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:32:08 tcr: hm? How do I do that? 20:32:09 every implementation must have the bits internally, it's just not exported by ANSI 20:32:44 -!- nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:32:59 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-75-95.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 20:33:23 sykopomp, actually, I'm not sure that killing the package system is a good idea 20:33:23 Edward_ [n=YouLoseT@AAubervilliers-154-1-75-95.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:33:36 (sb-impl::set-cat-entry #\: sb-impl::+char-attr-invalid+ *readtable*) 20:33:52 Adlai: how come? 20:33:52 it's definitely a simple initial approach, though. 20:34:13 well, I guess the other approach is to sandbox the lisp image itself. 20:34:17 sykopomp, it discourages people to reuse other people's code 20:34:30 Adlai: this is not a situation where you're going to be architecting huge stuff. 20:36:07 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 20:36:33 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.215.246] has joined #lisp 20:38:33 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 20:39:25 sykopomp: My answer above didn't work, it's actually (setf (elt sb-impl::*constituent-trait-table* (char-code #\:)) sb-impl::+char-attr-invalid+), be wary that will kill your slime 20:40:21 tcr, I think we want the real CL reader available too, though 20:41:05 sykopomp: What is this thing you are up to? 20:41:17 schme, daydreaming about sykosomatic 20:41:24 Adlai: the real reader is there, it's just that it'll choke on colons :-) 20:41:25 it's that time of month. 20:41:26 evalbot dreamin'? 20:41:28 what does that do for keywords? 20:41:35 Adlai: (except if escaped of course) 20:42:05 Hm perhaps even if escaped :-) 20:42:20 splittist: ...good point. 20:42:40 well you can get keywords working 20:42:51 write a non-terminating macro char on #\: 20:42:54 you could have #:foo be a keyword 20:43:03 by overriding the dispatching macro character 20:43:46 or you could have a white-list of packages that you are allowed to access, like nyef said :-) 20:43:53 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-160-165-184.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:57 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:45:26 Writing your own reader is fun and easy, and the spec even includes the algo. 20:45:38 if intern is involved for all symbol lookups, you could replace intern with a version that restricts the packages you can access whenever *package* has a certain value 20:46:13 (the loop thing mentioned earlier would still have to be handled separately, I guess) 20:46:13 splittist: there's also pjb's reader. 20:46:13 splittist: the algo really allows this stuff, it's just that there's no portable way to set a character to be invalid 20:46:17 which is likely the way I would go. 20:46:25 that leaves a boatload of other ways to crash the server. 20:46:56 -!- Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78-72-33-106-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:47:16 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:55 pkhuong: which is why I'm going for "reasonably" sandboxed. The goal is more "give malicious users a little bit of trouble, and prevent stupid users as much as possible". I'm also thinking of having an event system with a nanny thread that kills execution if it runs too long, and possibly hooking up into the lisp I'm running on to try to limit memory usage. 20:49:04 jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-70-167.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:49:17 I'd use a jail with heavy resource usage limits. 20:49:37 but that wouldn't prevent individual users from bringing the app itself down. 20:50:06 sykopomp: a process pool. 20:50:15 I would still probably run things in a jail, on -top- of all this stuff. 20:50:22 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:50:39 pkhuong: how does a process pool help when all the users are in a single lisp image? :\ 20:50:59 sykopomp: that's what I wouldn't do... 20:51:31 Let me guess... this is for an IRC evalbot? 20:51:31 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:34 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f75426b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:51:38 nyef: close. MUD :P 20:51:50 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f75426b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:00 so I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to semi-trust users. 20:52:03 ska` [n=user@ppp-61-90-16-203.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 20:52:15 nyef, sykopomp has been interested in making a MUD-engine-on-crack using CL for a long time 20:52:16 sykopomp: then don't expose CL, except for high level wizards. 20:52:32 Adlai: I probably knew that at one point. 20:52:39 jtza8_ [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-43-141.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:53:55 pkhuong: being able to provide at least some minor scripting capabilities to lower-level wizards would be nice. 20:54:02 nyef: would the hack to compute 2 real FFTs via a complex FFT work for your project? 20:54:30 but forgetting about sandboxing altogether and providing full lisp access only to well-trusted wizards is actually a pretty good idea :\ 20:56:24 pkhuong: I don't actually know, but thanks for the link. 20:56:50 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-237-103.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:58:07 sykopomp: what up. did you go to the last tclispers meeting? 20:58:16 erg: indeed. 20:58:38 any good? what's the ui toolkit of choice? 20:58:54 erg: mostly a soul-sucking talk about how bad the GUI situation is, although a couple of people suggested apparently acceptable possibilities. 20:59:09 qt if you can bind to it 20:59:27 but the native alternatives got a pretty bad rap (garnet for not actually working, mcclim for supposedly not being usable) 20:59:32 yeah, there's CommonQT 20:59:51 LTK got a passing mention, although I think that's probably the most usable of the alternatives atm. 21:01:49 what sort of user interface? textual, 2d, 3d, ...? 21:02:00 It's not that McCLIM isn't usable, it's just not installable. Once you have it installed, and can manage to institute sufficient error handling to keep from having the entire system pack up and go home when the slightest thing goes wrong, it's okay. 21:02:49 there was also some talk about how hard clim is to learn, and how weird it is, that being another barrier of entry. 21:03:27 possibly not a valid point in a lisp setting :-) 21:03:27 I'll buy that. At the same time, CLIM is actually a collection of small pieces that are individually easy enough to learn. 21:03:50 my ideal UI is a cross between what's used in Minority Report and The Island :D 21:03:53 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@117.192.132.167] has joined #lisp 21:03:54 I wouldn't know. I keep having false starts with CLIM. 21:03:57 Even if the designs stuff is way out there. 21:05:38 Adlai: studies show that the UI from Minority Report movie is very *not* ergonomic and fucking annoying to use 21:05:50 I've been studying the CLIM II spec for the past few days, and yesterday I realized that almost everything happens in a thread dedicated to listening for events from the display server. 21:06:08 Even if this isn't what apparently happens in McCLIM. 21:06:14 p_l, but it looks so fun! 21:06:14 And I have no idea what "real" CLIM does either. 21:06:28 Adlai: there are more intelligent variants, which use multitouch surfaces that don't require you to effing stand up all the time 21:06:36 (or keep your hands in the air) 21:06:37 I also a jetpack, and a pony. 21:07:04 *p_l* stuffs jetpack into a pony, shoots it and watches the explosion 21:07:18 Adlai: ask for a verb while you're at it. 21:07:29 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-35-232-140.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 21:07:42 pkhuong, touché! 21:07:51 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:08:41 :-( message-passing OO really does not cope well with functional programming habits 21:08:43 also, jetpacks are nothing... I want something like what was used in Yoku Wakaru Gendai Mahou intro sequence (flying without *anything*, in whatever position, direction etc. - full freedom) 21:09:39 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-70-167.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:09:40 p_l: You mean *falling*? 21:10:13 *nyef* decides to fall -upwards-. 21:10:27 ... Well, that didn't work. 21:10:40 *Adlai* suddenly gets distracted, forgets to fall, and finds himself airborne. 21:11:05 Heh. Thank you, Mr. Adams. 21:11:07 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@p5B0C57EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:12:52 hi lisp 21:13:14 loving shuffletron 21:13:19 hello holycow 21:13:27 hows it going beach? 21:17:14 Axius [n=ade@92.84.7.155] has joined #lisp 21:17:39 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["cool the fans"] 21:19:02 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has joined #lisp 21:19:05 -!- slash_ [n=unknown@p5DD1D367.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:19:13 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.195.126] has joined #lisp 21:21:00 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:21:58 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.84.7.155] has quit [Client Quit] 21:22:31 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:25:17 antoszka: if you can fall forward, horizontally, at high enough speed to leave kilwater-like effect on the water that is half a meter below your feet.... 21:26:12 :) 21:27:11 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:28:31 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.213.114] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:29:32 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-188-099-120-028.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:42 addled [n=addled@77.208.59.239] has joined #lisp 21:36:20 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 21:37:42 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:37:48 -!- rwiker [n=rwiker@73.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:40:56 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.79.57] has joined #lisp 21:41:25 -!- jtza8_ [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-43-141.iburst.co.za] has quit ["Zzz"] 21:41:32 -!- rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:43:32 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:44:36 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 21:48:03 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:12 p_l: do you have a link to such a study showing that a minority report ui is not ergonomic? 21:49:40 common sense is all that is required 21:49:59 prxq: I don't have it now, I read it >2y ago, however the basics come from bad placement of the screen - basically, after short time, your arms would hurt like hell 21:50:17 i used to work in a machine shop 21:50:31 anyone that has to stand up for a living can tell you its common sense that you cant do that for a long period of time 21:50:35 even a short period of time 21:50:47 prxq: Either your arms get tired (if the display is in normal monitor location) or your neck gets sore (if the display is lowered to make your hands comfy) 21:50:57 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:51:19 prxq: Also, doing multi-touch on the screen results in a lot of obstruction. 21:51:20 and it takes only a few minutes to get to that point 21:52:26 i see. Well, I wasn't very convinced to begin with. 21:52:37 prxq: gui/10 is an interesting concept for what might actually work. Something like the multitouch keyboard that existed before Apple bought the company and killed it. 21:52:51 prxq: usable variant is having a multitouch surface, like gui/10 21:52:58 and use normal display 21:52:58 holycow: what is it that you can't do for more than a few minutes? 21:53:20 everything that doofus was doing in the movie 21:53:22 prxq: also, if you want good direct manipulation devices, tablet PCs are really good 21:53:25 apple has multitouch on the phones, right? 21:53:42 mouse isn't really that good 21:53:57 prxq: Yeah, but that's a compromise, and generally isn't extended use. 21:53:59 prx 21:54:01  21:54:05  21:54:12 wo 21:54:22 ah 21:54:33 the underlying idea of stacked cards which is what floating window managers tries to accomplish is solid enough that it could be re-used 21:55:01 Man, Colloquy likes to insert return at various points sometimes. 21:55:04 my thought is that the sutmpwm/blender style window management would be the easiest for anything of that sort 21:55:41 -!- YuleAthas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:57:07 In any case, I was curious to read an article dissecting the usability issues of that UI. 21:57:38 *nod* i just don't think there is anything to disect 21:57:59 stand up then hold your hands up at 3/4 position straight in front of you 21:58:02 see how long you last 21:58:16 scratch that :) it probably is a good read *nod* :) 21:58:49 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@53.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:59:06 at the very least, the part with the wooden ball merits some discussion. 21:59:34 basically, it's one of those UIs that look cool but are really impractical, like the UIs from ST:NG/DS9/Voyager 21:59:50 (it was even lampshaded in Voyager) 21:59:54 p_l: heh, i look at those and think what a waste 22:00:39 holycow: actually, there are designs that look similar, but without idiotism of touchscreens (nanotech-based haptic interfaces, kind of like dynamically reconfigurable keyboards) 22:01:01 p_l: like, "computer: regenerate algorithms!"? A new dimension in DWIM 22:01:08 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:01:15 p_l: that gives me an idea for a new keyboard design :) 22:01:17 thanks! 22:01:18 hehe 22:01:52 holycow: search on youtube for the nokia video about nanotech based phone, it shows example of how such keypad works 22:02:08 cool, thx for the heads up 22:02:23 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:02:23 however, to get it done properly we still need some time :/ 22:02:58 -!- md11 [n=user@chello089173014026.chello.sk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:04:02 -!- addled [n=addled@77.208.59.239] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:04:31 by we meaning we as in humanity or we as in you working for nokia? 22:04:33 :) 22:04:57 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:05:07 thats a decent enogh idea indeed 22:05:58 rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 22:06:33 holycow: we as in humanity for the probable next 20 years 22:06:50 we aren't that far away 22:06:52 let me show you somethign 22:07:05 then I'm grabbing a f*ckton of coal, build a spaceship and run away ;P 22:07:15 coal? 22:07:23 holycow: I meant on a level usable for easy mass production 22:07:37 http://emea.kontron.com/products/boards+and+mezzanines/embedded+sbc/pitx+25+sbc/pitxsp.html 22:07:40 prxq: I'd need carbon for ship's superstructure 22:07:44 that is a 2.5 inch atom based sbc 22:07:45 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.213.114] has joined #lisp 22:08:22 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:08:24 you can make a celphone out of that by attaching a 3g mobile device (phone dialer software doesn't exist yet but can be hacked up with proper drivers and something like what exist on openmoko) 22:08:35 holycow: doesn't compare to a phone that looks like folded thin mousepad 22:08:46 its also fully capable to function as a laptop, my current laptop is a netbook 22:09:01 sure, but this is now, its here and you can build a phone with netbook power 22:09:07 sure 22:09:21 aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 22:09:27 the other stuff is comming indeed, but that rebolution will require a revolution in how processing happens 22:09:43 it's time for rebolution 22:09:44 the neat thing about the nokia demo is that it moves us away from a cpu architecture to a distsributed cel architecture 22:10:09 where the processing power is a function of the total number of cels available, which i would imagine can be arbitrarily added 22:10:14 francogrex [n=user@91.180.85.31] has joined #lisp 22:10:26 rebolution! :) hehe 22:10:51 in the nokia demo, each one of those cels is probably something like an entire one of these sbdcs 22:11:07 with power and bus interconnects built in to the cel which also does processing 22:11:30 -!- prxq [n=mommer@g226149081.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["good night"] 22:11:47 i discovered that i am unable to update my lisp implementation to the new one that enables threads. Would i be missing a lot if i am without "threads"? 22:11:56 -!- Pete_R [n=quassel@78.97.98.73] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:12:02 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.215.246] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:12:40 -!- Davidbrcz [i=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:14:37 p_l: the other thing i'd like to see is the ability to 'grow' cpus 22:15:35 that statement is so full of ignorance as to probably be meaningless but it would be neat to have some sort of 'printer environment' that can 'grow' processing units to whatever degree you require, the way they can grow fake diamonds 22:15:45 well, artificial diamonds 22:16:53 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.213.114] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:18:10 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.215.246] has joined #lisp 22:18:59 -!- snearch [n=olaf@g225061006.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:19:03 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:20:00 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f75426b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:20:31 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f75426b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:15 good night 22:21:25 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06f844.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["(quit)"] 22:21:33 -!- jedbrown [n=jed@vawpc43.ethz.ch] has quit ["leaving"] 22:24:48 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f75426b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:25:06 francogrex: I guess quite a lot 22:25:11 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f75426b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:21 holycow: that's what nanofabs are for 22:25:42 holycow: put materials, power and manufacturing program in, get a spaceship out 22:26:29 The trick is writing the manufacturing program for a spaceship. 22:27:02 nyef: easier than making the nanofab ;-) 22:27:08 Are you sure? 22:28:37 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@ram94-7-82-232-191-53.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:28:49 Pepe_ [n=ppjet@mna75-4-82-225-76-148.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:59 nyef: it depends on how you grade complexity... the spaceship could be designed using simplified blocks with CAD/CAM/CAE tools (think libraries containing prepared design programs for elements etc.), while nanofab so far requires designing from scratch necessary manipulation parts as well as design system 22:29:11 and well, depends what kind of spaceship :D 22:29:42 I want the Lexx. 22:29:44 p_l: well like what? 22:30:14 francogrex: iirc you run on win32, right? 22:30:19 for example something that is cool. all i need from CL and C is data anaysis like applying stat/math algorithm, processing data etc 22:30:25 p_l yes 22:30:46 francogrex: separating control (even SWANK) from calculation process 22:31:11 p_l i don't use swank 22:31:51 the shit is posix seems impossible to install on xp 22:32:05 new ecl version giving nothing but trouble 22:33:45 i'm thinking to switching to sbcl completely but a pity because all my programs (lisp, fas, dlls and exe) have been done in ecl 22:34:30 either that or i stay stuck in the non-unicode no-threads vesrion of 2008 22:34:37 How much hacking on SBCL are you willing to do? 22:34:50 nyef: quite a bit 22:34:53 Ooh. 22:35:49 i set up cffi nicely and it'll work, only problem i won't be able to make those nice standalone dlls and exe 22:36:37 francogrex: what were you compiling ECL with? 22:36:39 SBCL doesn't have threads on win32, either 22:36:52 lnostdal: But it has unicode, and the threads thing is fixable. 22:37:00 francogrex: also, you might want CCL (though it doesn't build dlls) 22:37:09 nyef: ECL has unicode too 22:37:12 it's hard to let go..., p_l; i was using MinGW 22:37:12 (Hell, the threads thing was halfway fixed at one point, a while ago.) 22:37:29 nyef, sure, but that applies wrt. his current implementation, also 22:37:49 ... Fair enough. 22:38:06 p_l I need the dlls, I accustomed my collegues/clients to have Cl and C dlls link to their VBA applications 22:38:33 Odin- [n=sbkhh@194-144-58-124.du.xdsl.is] has joined #lisp 22:38:42 francogrex: right, mingw. My only experience with ECL on windows was using MSVC 22:39:04 (MSVC build from a year ago worked with threads no problem...) 22:39:05 p_l; yes you told me a few days ago. idon't use MSVC 22:39:19 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:39:26 Edward__ [i=YouLoseT@AAubervilliers-154-1-75-95.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:39:28 -!- Edward__ [i=YouLoseT@AAubervilliers-154-1-75-95.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 22:39:42 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:40:01 p_l; i know, but havng built ecl with MSVC, you'll need to continue using MSVC 22:40:16 dealing with dependencies on win32 has always been a pain .. IIRC ECL now needs a newer version of some of its deps. 22:40:45 one* 22:41:19 lnostdal: yes new ecl versions are a shit on win32, none works smoothly as the old simpler versions 22:41:28 i didn't say that 22:41:32 but ok 22:41:39 even asdf doesn't work properly 22:42:04 dlls cannot be built anymore etc... 22:42:18 that where i hate technology 22:42:26 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgsbot 22:42:35 -!- bgsbot is now known as bgs100 22:42:48 progress too fast but realize that not everything is able to follow 22:42:50 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:42:52 -!- ska` [n=user@ppp-61-90-16-203.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:43:11 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgsbot1 22:43:16 -!- bgsbot1 is now known as bgs100 22:44:12 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-57-108.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:44:20 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-57-108.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 22:44:58 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:45:54 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:54 chops [n=nope@dyn-48.greentreefrog.net.au] has joined #lisp 22:46:59 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["reboot"] 22:47:45 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:50:47 corman lisp is another option 22:56:01 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-232-46.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 22:56:16 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-232-46.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:56:31 my only problem with corman is lack of unicode 22:58:17 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:58:54 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@194-144-58-124.du.xdsl.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 23:00:54 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:01:22 p_l; well then... unicode is not so useful, not for me anyway. I don't write in russian or arabian 23:01:53 you're egoistic 23:02:23 yeah well, western languages rule 23:02:38 francogrex: good luck dealing with documents that don't require unicode 23:02:43 *for dealing 23:02:45 I can hradly see lisp syntax in greak 23:02:46 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:55 I haven't seen yet a case where I didn't need unicode 23:03:00 (regarding documents) 23:03:10 maybe in scientific computations etc. 23:03:39 p_l: strange why? all my data are in just the standard 23:03:46 western code 23:04:30 i reconize unicode has its virtues, but i want cry my eyeballs out over not being able to have it 23:04:43 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:04:57 another option on win32 might be clisp .. it supports unicode .. no threads, though .. (well, perhaps experimental support) 23:05:31 lnostdal: plus it's cmpiled to bytecode 23:05:32 oh, and no dlls either 23:05:35 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 23:05:55 sbcl is as fast as the light compared to clisp and others 23:06:08 no dlls! oh jeez 23:06:26 i can't live without my dlls 23:07:15 ok guys time to go to bed 23:07:29 dll hell! .. not sure i understand why generation of dlls is regarded as a "must" .. you connect this stuff with a GUI thingy written in VBA? .. sockets? 23:07:36 :) 23:08:06 francogrex: the problem is that it's quite often that you have to deal with non-iso8859-1 chars due to various names, for example... 23:08:51 nicdev [n=nicdev@st401-249.subnet-246.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 23:09:09 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-126-42.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:49 I can't even write my name correctly with iso8859-1 :/ 23:11:28 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@117.192.132.167] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:14:48 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-143.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:18:54 -!- gz [gz@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout]