00:02:18 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 00:02:46 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [] 00:04:55 -!- bohanlon_ [n=bohanlon@pool-173-48-104-141.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:05:37 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-234-210.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:13 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-173-48-104-141.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:39 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-100-116.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:10:06 What would be a good name for `(let ((fn (lambda ,arglist ,@body))) (setf (%fun-name fn) ,name) fn) ? 00:10:27 kind of dynamically-named-lambda 00:12:14 tcr: named-lambda* ;) 00:13:19 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:13:59 -!- seangrove [n=user@adsl-99-2-229-105.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:15:23 I want to use that on the functions created by defstruct; for some reason that escapes me the accessors, predicate, etc are constructed from the dsds at load-time 00:15:40 tcr: flet is better 00:16:05 rahul: the names are computed at runtime. 00:16:18 oh, this is a specific thing 00:16:22 Yeah but I do not understand why it's done that way because the information is there at compile-time 00:17:34 -!- ziga` [n=user@BSN-142-52-84.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:17:40 tcr: the compiler usually inlines these anyway. 00:18:09 yeah but it's for (function-name #'struct-accessor) 00:18:46 and that's needed for (function-type (function-name #'struct-accessor)), you need the name because the derived type is uninteresting, the declared type in the info db is useful 00:19:01 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-251-126.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:19:22 I mean, the out of line definitions aren't generated at compilation because they're not used that often. 00:19:37 -!- poet [n=tss@unaffiliated/poet] has quit [] 00:20:02 ah ok I thought you were talking about showing up in frames or something like that 00:20:43 arquebus [n=shintaro@201.139.156.133.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 00:26:52 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:40 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:20 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:34:31 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:37:12 DylanJ [n=QQ@unaffiliated/dylanj] has joined #lisp 00:37:45 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 00:45:57 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 00:46:36 wedgeV [n=wedge@user-108781q.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 00:48:08 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:49:55 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-12-78-154.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 00:50:41 Sikander: If you want to do plots, scigraph (mostly) works with mcclim. 00:52:32 rtoym: I never got it to work... 00:53:12 rtoym: there are people that got it to compile? 00:56:51 -!- arquebus [n=shintaro@201.139.156.133.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:59:37 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 01:00:39 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 01:01:29 Sikander: Really? It worked for me the last time I tried it. There were some bugs, but it did work. 01:01:54 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:01:56 I think everything I did is mentioned on the mcclim list somewhere. 01:02:11 pdk [n=test@c-24-131-66-4.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:25 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 01:03:37 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B19F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:04:21 crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 01:08:20 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 01:09:10 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 01:11:20 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:12:25 rtoym: Hum, I'll have another look. Meanwhile, I'm just making some utilities to quickly plot stuff from the repl in a non-fancy way. 01:16:01 minion: memo for Adlai: Feel also free to give the more-sequence-functions a shot (including thinking of new functions operating on sequences.) 01:16:02 Remembered. I'll tell Adlai when he/she/it next speaks. 01:16:09 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:16:10 Sikander: It's possible that whatever I changed didn't make it, but the changes were relatively simple. I can't really remember, but it seems that it was fairly easy to do plots from the repl. 01:16:40 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-190.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:17:00 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 01:17:58 rtoym: Is the data easy to read from a file, write to a file and also easy to manipulate? 01:18:58 Sikander: I can't really remember, but I think the data need to be in an array or list, so files can be anything. 01:19:33 wedgeV_ [n=wedge@cpe-67-250-53-58.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:19:54 Perhaps this is useful: http://openmap.bbn.com/~kanderso/lisp/scigraph/#3.1 01:20:00 rtoym: Hmmm. I'll have a look. Thanks 01:20:56 Sorry I can't be more helpful. It was quite a while ago when I did this, and I kind of just stopped. 01:23:40 davazp` [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:52 Well, if it's useful and usable, I'll use it :) 01:25:18 Maybe it's hackable, else I'll just continue rolling my own 01:26:12 dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:27:15 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 01:28:20 -!- roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 01:29:01 -!- wedgeV_ [n=wedge@cpe-67-250-53-58.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:31:30 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-190.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 01:31:38 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-169-28.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:31:40 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:32:52 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-92-209.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:14 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-190.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:35:16 rtoym: (make-demo-frame) already doesn't work because dwim::port is not defined. 01:35:41 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:39:10 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:42:34 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@user-108781q.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:44:59 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:46:27 -!- davazp` [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:53:11 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-36.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - 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dircproxy 1.2.0"] 03:27:34 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Broken pipe] 03:27:38 -!- skeptomai|awa- is now known as skeptomai|away 03:27:46 jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 03:32:49 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:33:05 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:33:35 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 03:34:10 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-185-164.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:36:56 so, is iterate worth moving to 03:37:00 vs loop 03:38:25 -!- nyquist [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:39:22 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.221.203] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 03:45:32 -!- gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:48:07 pixpop [n=pixpop@166.205.130.226] has joined #lisp 03:48:11 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:48:59 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@166.205.130.226] has quit [Client Quit] 03:50:13 impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313971.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:50:58 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 03:52:31 GrayMagiker [n=steve@c-76-18-86-163.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:27 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:03:13 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-195-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:42 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.102.233] has joined #lisp 04:07:39 eno [n=eno@70.137.162.184] has joined #lisp 04:08:51 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:10:31 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-218-053.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:14:00 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-190.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:15:41 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-190.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:18:54 Good morning! 04:23:29 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.80] has joined #lisp 04:28:59 good evening. 04:29:12 pathname question: I have a directory, foo/, with a file "x.lisp" in it, and another directory, "bar/", with "x.png" inside it. 04:29:38 I want to be able to reliably get at x.png whenever x.lisp is loaded. 04:30:06 sounds like introspection 04:30:24 truename/*d-p-d*/etc are all pretty weird and don't seem to reliably give me the behavior I need. I'm not sure how to refer to that png. 04:30:53 I'd look into how M-. and friends find paths 04:31:03 then use something similar as a basis 04:31:35 Doesn't M-. use a particular implementation's record of source locations? 04:31:48 -!- DylanJ [n=QQ@unaffiliated/dylanj] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:32:41 I mean, I know you can do (load "x.lisp") in a source file and usually get expected behavior... 04:32:56 sykopomp: something like that; that's what you need: "path of this file" 04:33:16 strongly doubt there's a portable solution 04:33:32 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:34:13 sykopomp: note: in Thune, I use ./ successfully to load files (i.e. the config file) relative to shell/slime CWD. 04:34:29 iow, the WD of the lisp image 04:34:40 that should be well-defined. 04:34:51 just remember to do ,cd when you open up your project 04:35:05 this is troublesome. 04:35:39 I have not found it to be obstructive 04:36:26 sykopomp - have a LOAD-like stuff the path somewhere that the loaded file can see it. 04:37:23 smanek [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:55 billitch_ [n=billitch@p57A25E94.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:11 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:38:56 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:17 -!- smanek [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:39:46 -!- billitch [n=billitch@p57A27F0A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:39:46 -!- billitch_ is now known as billitch 04:39:47 smanek [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:27 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-127-102.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:19 pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has joined #lisp 04:43:52 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313971.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 04:44:08 impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313971.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:44:13 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313971.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 04:45:08 -!- kefka [n=user@ec2-75-101-205-165.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:54:11 "The following code is written 04:54:11 by a C programmer to add two integers. ... ACL Lisp compiler generates the following long object code (another compiler should generate similar 04:54:11 long code). The C programmer will feel faint. [page of disassembly]" 04:54:56 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-190.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:55:44 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-142-19.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:56:39 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-190.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:58:53 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:59:33 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 05:00:51 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.102.233] has left #lisp 05:01:18 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 05:01:38 borism [n=boris@195-50-197-14-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 05:04:39 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.20.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:05:55 -!- pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:07:01 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195.50.197.221] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:19:04 -!- Axioplas1_ is now known as Axioplase 05:22:44 gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 05:22:48 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-150-239.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:51 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-92-209.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:30:03 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit ["brb"] 05:32:06 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 05:32:16 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student167-152.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 05:33:39 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Success] 05:33:52 Axius [n=ojof@92.82.77.156] has joined #lisp 05:34:07 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 05:34:08 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:35:28 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student167-152.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 05:35:54 ayrnieu: link? 05:37:06 http://cl-www.msi.co.jp/solutions/knowledge/lisp-world/tutorial/compiler-eval-e.pdf ; from the lisp reddit. 05:38:21 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 05:38:29 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-211-174.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:23 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-127-102.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:41:18 ayrnieu: heh, nice example 05:49:02 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-50-103.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:56:04 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-192-163.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:37 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-131-56.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:06:12 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:27 -!- crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has left #lisp 06:09:25 DylanJ [n=QQ@unaffiliated/dylanj] has joined #lisp 06:11:15 Anyone know how i can get lispbuilder-sdl set up with clisp on gentoo? ( i'm so new too lisp >_> ) 06:13:06 DylanJ: Would it help if I recommended using a different implementation? :-) 06:13:19 p_l: that'd be cool as well. 06:13:24 *p_l* had success with SBCL and clbuild-installed lispbuilder-sdl 06:13:55 I'll check it out. I just want to get in on some functional programming. :D 06:13:57 DylanJ: anyway, if you're on X86/X86-64 linux, I recommend SBCL anyway 06:14:02 oh ok 06:15:50 it has good support for threading, FFI, native compiler, is probably one of the best supported by SLIME etc. :) 06:15:56 Tordek [n=tordek@186.124.174.218] has joined #lisp 06:16:13 (though CCL is also great - It's my current implementation of choice when dealing with win64) 06:16:38 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:17:49 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:18:03 how's CCL on linux x86-64? 06:18:07 DylanJ: also, Common Lisp is more of a multiparadigm language... if you're looking mostly towards functional programming, Scheme or Haskell fit the bill more (But you can write functionally in CL as well. It's just that I consider forgetting about CLOS a crime ^_-) 06:18:25 Ralith: I haven't had any special problems so far, but I haven't tested it extensively 06:18:32 mngbd [n=pkt@081-003-214-196.yesss.at] has joined #lisp 06:19:10 Ralith: Mind you, neither SBCL (relocatable with resizable dynamic space) nor CCL work on certain diabolic configs involving grsec 06:19:28 (Recommending Haskell is also a crime, but at least the consequences are harder to miss than CLOS-ignorance.) 06:19:56 ayrnieu: hey, if someone looks purely for functional programming experience... 06:20:15 *p_l* considers Haskell for his next little project, just to learn the language 06:20:16 I'm just interested in learning something other that C* 06:20:19 *than 06:20:47 DylanJ: then I recommend learning CL, Haskell and Prolog. In no fixed order :) 06:20:54 :D 06:21:05 p_l - send them to mercury and they can skip Haskell and Prolog. 06:21:15 ayrnieu: haven't seen that one 06:21:50 DylanJ: Mind you, some Prolog implementations can give you answers when question is unknown ;-) 06:22:35 p_l - it's less superficially attractive than Haskell (which makes it less of an attractive nuisance), but even more interesting in some ways, and it's better about logic programming than Prolog. 06:23:00 ayrnieu: how is existing runtime/implementation/support? 06:23:18 DylanJ: oh, and add to that list Erlang or Moz(?) 06:23:30 Prolog looks so strange 06:23:31 p_l - *shrug* 06:23:33 Mozart. 06:23:54 DylanJ: why do you think I recommended it? You wanted something different from C :> 06:24:02 :) 06:24:28 So I chose randomly from what I remembered to be different enough :> 06:24:43 http://q-lang.sourceforge.net/ is a term-rewriting language that looks like Haskell but, thankfully, isn't. 06:25:09 -!- mngbd [n=pkt@081-003-214-196.yesss.at] has quit ["no reason"] 06:26:04 why is haskell such a horrible thing? 06:27:16 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:29:57 Ralith - the emphasis should be on the 'why'. As in: I see that Haskell is so horrible, but *why* - what technological or social conspiracy met to produce this end? And then you can speculate: maybe it's the Perl-golfing point-free&c-is-so-cool community. 06:31:25 ayrnieu: what 06:31:28 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-211-174.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 06:31:32 DylanJ, but you can also follow SICP in CL: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ 06:31:44 ayrnieu: haskell is horrible because it is both inherently and culturally excessively concise? 06:31:57 Here have some straws for grasping 06:32:09 -!- poet [n=poet@unaffiliated/poet] has left #lisp 06:32:14 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:32:16 Ralith - 'concise' is too neutral a term. 06:32:17 poet [n=poet@unaffiliated/poet] has joined #lisp 06:32:32 ayrnieu: that seems like a cosmetic complaint at best 06:32:39 ayrnieu: along the lines of "it has too many parens" 06:33:09 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 06:33:19 Ralith - yeah, I don't care. Haskell will continue to be an attractive nuisance, but I think the spirits of its drowned children mainly hassle #clojure. 06:35:07 ayrnieu: it'd be a lot easier to work out what you're trying to say if you didn't glue the most elaborately purple-prose insults onto it :P 06:36:22 emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:17 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-211-174.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:10 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@186.124.174.218] has quit ["leaving"] 06:39:33 Tordek [n=tordek@186.124.174.218] has joined #lisp 06:41:55 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-190.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:41:56 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 06:44:48 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-190.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:45:07 For what it's worth, I thought Haskell was fun to learn (I'm no expert by any means, just worked my way through a short book). Redeemed static typing after annoying experiences with Java, et al. What do you think is the problem with it? 06:47:58 One side problem with it is that people are so shocked by the notion that it has any problems that they want to discuss it in inappropriate channels. 06:49:45 -!- beach` is now known as beach 06:50:26 To be fair, you guys brought it up. I was just asking you to elaborate on your criticism. I'm not 'shocked by the notion that it has problems.' I'm just sincerely looking to learn what you think about it. If this is the inappropriate channel for that conversation, then so be it 06:51:02 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.82.77.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:54:07 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:59:59 pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has joined #lisp 07:00:25 -!- pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has left #lisp 07:06:16 hey, is CASE supposed to use EQ or EQL? 07:06:16 Adlai, memo from tcr: Feel also free to give the more-sequence-functions a shot (including thinking of new functions operating on sequences.) 07:06:23 *Adlai* got a memo! 07:08:07 Willem [n=user@g230125186.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:08:25 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-192-163.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:08:50 Adlai - EQL 07:09:03 ok, this is an issue with CCL 07:09:17 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:47 Adlai - it's equivalent to a COND using MEMBER , and of member: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/17_ba.htm 07:10:00 ayrnieu: yep, although that is the notes section 07:10:08 the notes aren't part of the actual specification 07:10:13 but you're right that it suggests that 07:11:27 pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.14.135] has joined #lisp 07:14:54 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.162.32] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:15:02 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.162.32] has joined #lisp 07:15:58 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-190.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:17:43 -!- emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has left #lisp 07:18:56 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-190.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:19:51 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:21:38 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 07:26:49 tim [n=tim@71-208-152-57.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:52 -!- Willem [n=user@g230125186.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:39:44 d5r [n=d5r@77.35.230.64] has joined #lisp 07:43:55 joga_ [n=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 07:44:09 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-190.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:45:44 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:44 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-190.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:45:55 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.236.91] has joined #lisp 07:59:23 -!- d5r [n=d5r@77.35.230.64] has quit [] 08:01:18 -!- tim [n=tim@71-208-152-57.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:01:25 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:42 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-129-110.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:46 vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 08:04:45 -!- smanek [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:05:39 smanek [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:51 -!- smanek [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:06:37 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-32-169.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 08:09:58 -!- Summermute [n=scott@98.204.67.114] has quit [] 08:11:35 redblue [i=star@ppp067.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 08:12:11 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 08:12:37 lispm [n=joswig@e177153157.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:12:41 mrSpec [n=Spec@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 08:12:59 hello 08:15:28 If you tell ECL that you're dealing with fixnums, it actually produces worse code. 08:15:34 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 08:18:49 abbreviated, cl_object add1 (cl_object V1, cl_object V2) { return ecl_plus(V1, V2); } becomes cl_object add2 (cl_object V1, cl_object V2) { cl_fixnum V3; cl_fixnum V4; V3 = ecl_to_fixnum(V1); V4 = ecl_to_fixnum(V2); return ecl_plus(MAKE_FIXNUM(V3), MAKE_FIXNUM(V4)); } 08:21:25 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:23:04 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-16-28.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:25:04 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-211-174.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:25:44 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:29:33 you can get (V3)+(V4) with (the fixnum (+ x y)) , but: you have to do this with each operation (you can't just say that the result of a calculation is a fixnum), it must be arity 2. 08:34:37 good morning 08:35:30 does anyone have experiences regarding clsql vs. cl-rdbms? 08:37:50 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-211-174.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:40:17 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:40:26 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-129-110.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:42:29 rkm [n=rkm@rrcs-96-10-234-78.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:44:13 lpolzer_: I'm trying it out my self theese days 08:44:38 (clsql) 08:44:53 cl-rdbms has better protocols, less CommonSQL-compatible cruft, a much better OO layer available separately. In turn, there are fewer backends at this point. 08:44:56 i hated clsql 08:45:21 if i was using postgresql, i'd try postmodern 08:45:57 lichtblau, I see. notably it lacks mysql. 08:46:26 guaqua, why do you hate clsql? 08:49:17 it had its own special reader macros (#1) and for what i tinkered with it, couldn't get the right kind of queries out of it. i.e. it wasn't lispy enough and sql'y enough 08:50:37 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-190.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:51:04 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 08:52:04 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-190.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:57:26 rlarson80 [n=rlarson8@CPE001cdf73661f-CM001ceacec55e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 09:01:24 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:06:32 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-31-198.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:07:00 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 09:07:50 -!- Edico 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[n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:53:43 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 10:54:46 demmel [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-203-030.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:29 joswig [n=joswig@e177120192.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:55:48 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177153157.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:57:53 -!- knobo [n=user@s0023-0003.dsl.start.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:59:20 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6FCF5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 11:02:16 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483AF11.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:06:46 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:10:44 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:11:53 -!- penthief [n=matt@87-194-57-101.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:16:04 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:23:00 -!- demmel [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-203-030.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:24:11 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-140-191-199.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:24:45 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.236.91] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:25:59 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:28:33 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.166.151.40] has left #lisp 11:32:08 Axius [n=ojof@92.85.214.230] has joined #lisp 11:38:15 gerry_ [n=gerry@58.55.87.62] has joined #lisp 11:39:47 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:40:01 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:40:10 djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 11:41:31 -!- ejs [n=eugen@241-36-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:42:57 knobo [n=user@s0023-0003.dsl.start.no] has joined #lisp 11:43:43 I don't know how I would've survived Xorg, with its constant leaks on R400, if there wasn't NX. 11:44:24 It is such a liberation to have very long-living contexts. 11:44:40 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:46:20 my...my state! 11:46:41 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-168-72.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:49:02 Things like permanent state, Orgmode windows in fixed places really add up. Now if only intra-Emacs window management didn't suck.. 11:50:46 -!- jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:51:58 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 11:52:01 For a person with a lossy mind type, like me, who forgets things quickly, instant, predictable access to information read/write is very helpful. 11:53:10 using frames and setting display-buffer-reuse-frames to t helps 11:53:17 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:53:19 schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 11:54:05 tcr, I have around 10 frames, most of the time. The d-b-r-f thing I will check out.. 11:56:02 For example if you have the repl open in another frame, C-c C-z will switch to that frame instead of popping up a new window in the current frame 11:56:27 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:56:38 tcr, sounds like bliss.. 11:57:19 There are also variables to make certain types of buffer sticky to a certain frame 11:57:30 -!- metawilm [n=user@g230125186.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:57:35 I'll have to check them out at work because I have two screens there 11:58:47 Now, I hope "raise a frame" doesn't also mean "move it to the current desktop", but "move to the desktop containing the target frame". 11:59:54 Aha, currently it means "do nothing", when slime-repl is on another desktop. 12:00:16 ejs [n=eugen@250-110-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:21 *Xach* has a make-frame-on-workspace-n command... 12:00:32 cool how do you do it? 12:01:17 *deepfire* doesn't create frames often, actually, due to the persistence thing 12:01:17 deepfire: Might be worth the day, or the two to spend time to get that behaviour 12:01:42 tcr: exec wmctrl 12:02:12 -!- Vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit ["leaving"] 12:02:14 http://xach.livejournal.com/97147.html is actually what i do 12:02:22 but if i were writing it today, i would use wmctrl 12:07:48 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 12:08:29 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:08:38 slime-edit-uses is teh win on a xref-enabled-on-internals sbcl 12:08:45 nice 12:09:09 core grows by 3mb 12:09:25 Should probably some customization flag 12:09:29 +become 12:12:09 tcr, seems like querying emacs for the window-id of the target frame, and then 'wmctrl -i -a ' does the trick 12:12:47 tcr, now, I cheated, as I don't know how to do the former, so I got the id using wmctrl -l.. 12:13:59 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-31-198.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:14:18 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-31-198.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:17:25 Ok, apropossing for 'frame', 'window' and even 'id' didn't yield anything obvious about getting a WM ID of a emacs frame. 12:18:16 you should read through the relevant chapters in the elisp manual 12:18:59 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.85.214.230] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:19:34 s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-225-152.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:23 Hmm, maybe frame-parameters will get me there. 12:23:11 (frame-parameter 'outer-window-id) 12:23:25 Axius [n=ojof@92.85.214.230] has joined #lisp 12:26:42 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:26:59 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:27:01 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 12:27:02 manuel__ [n=manuel@pD9E6FCF5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:50 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.85.214.230] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:30:22 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-140-191-199.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 12:32:57 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 12:33:42 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 12:37:01 nyquist [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 12:38:01 milanj- [n=milan@93.87.152.48] has joined #lisp 12:39:19 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 12:40:27 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-140-191-199.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:41:36 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:42:15 (shell-command-to-string (format "wmctrl -i -a %s" (frame-parameter 'outer-window-id))) 12:42:37 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:43:26 -!- brad_ [n=chatzill@72.89.124.7] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.14/2009090216]"] 12:43:59 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-31-198.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:46:08 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.222.94] has joined #lisp 12:46:13 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.150.86] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:46:41 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:47:49 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:47:54 clog_ [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 12:49:34 tcr, mailed you the patch 12:52:56 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:54:00 Probably there's a more elegant way to execute external programs, and there's no error checking for missing wmctrl, and maybe there are other issues. 12:55:26 Axius [n=ojof@92.85.214.230] has joined #lisp 12:55:36 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.85.214.230] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:58:07 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-180-208.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:00:01 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:32 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:01:00 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-31-198.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:02:36 -!- clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:06:31 deepfire: look at the special-display-buffer-names and special-display-function 13:07:17 You can get your behaviour without having to touch slime 13:08:21 serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06d13a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:23 hello 13:11:11 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp067.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:13:01 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 13:13:57 tcr, where is hosted yours sequence iteration project, i'm not able to find it on cliki 13:14:22 milanj-: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/sequence-iterators/ 13:14:40 milanj-: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/sequence-iterators/darcs/sequence-iterators/ -- it's not published yet 13:15:30 milanj-: if you want to get the darcs repo, though, use http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=sequence-iterators-sequence-iterators;a=summary 13:15:33 that's why i'm unable to find it 13:15:34 thanks 13:15:41 hey tcr 13:15:43 I got your memo 13:17:46 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:33 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:23:13 milanj-: An unpolished documentation of the API can be found at http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/sequence-iterators.html 13:23:37 Unpolished yet accurate 13:26:15 cvandusen [n=user@99-166-72-116.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:27 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-103-190.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:26:52 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-124.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:27:45 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.54.174] has joined #lisp 13:28:04 great,thanks 13:31:50 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Operation timed out] 13:33:07 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 13:40:13 Axius [n=ojof@92.85.216.105] has joined #lisp 13:40:21 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.85.216.105] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:42:37 marioxcc [n=user@200.77.71.151] has joined #lisp 13:43:55 Axius [n=ojof@92.85.216.105] has joined #lisp 13:44:47 -!- cvandusen [n=user@99-166-72-116.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:44:51 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-56-124.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:44:58 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 13:48:44 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:49:30 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-56-124.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:52:07 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-56-124.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:52:20 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-56-124.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:52:52 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.85.216.105] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:53:00 nipra [n=nipra@117.195.104.196] has joined #lisp 13:53:48 The_Scarier [n=csujbc@viglab-13.dcs.warwick.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:53:56 cvandusen [n=user@99-166-72-116.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:06 I have a question of taste: in the case of an input or output coding error (octets->characters / characters->octets), what is the best name for a restart whose effect is "use this string instead" (input)? What about "encode this string instead" (output)? 13:56:33 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:56:41 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit ["brb. gnome-vfs or -wtf or whatever says it needs a restart .. guess that means reboot .. yay"] 13:58:32 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 14:03:35 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 14:04:16 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo4.186.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:46 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 14:04:56 hi 14:05:56 Retry encoding using a different string. 14:06:23 krystof: Retry encoding using a different string. 14:07:12 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.166.151.40] has joined #lisp 14:07:16 I'm trying to write a function, say (generate-array type dimension) where type is 'single-float or 'double-float or the complex equivalents, and in the function definition, do an ecase on type. However, the case falls through when I say e.g.: (generate-array 'double-float 10) 14:08:04 How would one do what I want to do? 14:08:08 note that there is TYPECASE 14:08:21 oh 14:08:52 yes, I want to do something different. 14:08:53 :) 14:08:57 I see 14:09:04 Yes... 14:09:04 paste your code 14:09:08 One sec 14:09:19 -!- The_Scarier [n=csujbc@viglab-13.dcs.warwick.ac.uk] has left #lisp 14:09:23 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [] 14:09:25 Lemme just clear some cruft and paste it 14:09:36 use paste.lisp.org 14:09:39 ;-) 14:10:07 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 14:10:26 Sikander: You mean a function that does (make-array dimension :element-type type)? 14:11:20 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 14:12:24 tcr: yes, but not quite. 14:13:25 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:14:49 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 14:14:55 Argh, stupid cut/paste 14:15:13 ;-) 14:16:07 benny` [n=benny@i577A18E7.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:16:35 Sikander pasted "ecase a type for joswig" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89599 14:17:00 remove the quotes 14:17:13 ecase does not evaluate 14:17:16 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A17D1.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:17:16 Ah! 14:17:18 d'oh! 14:17:21 thanks 14:18:05 To be clear, I'm not actually using this code. It's just an example 14:18:11 :D 14:18:20 sure 14:18:22 ;-) 14:20:12 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-93.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:20:46 joswig: But the complex ..-float still falls through 14:21:10 If I say (generate-array '(complex double-float) 10), it don't work 14:21:12 :( 14:21:19 ecase compares with EQL, not EQL 14:21:21 EQUAL 14:21:33 Ah 14:21:34 you have to use a COND 14:21:39 Ok, thanks 14:22:13 demmel [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-203-030.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:38 Sikander: why don't you use the types float and complex? 14:24:11 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:24:13 then, you could also use ~(~a~) in the format with the type name as argument, no branching needed 14:24:46 Adlai: What's the point of the function declaration? 14:24:48 serichsen: Because this isn't the real code 14:25:27 I'm writing an example for gsll 14:25:42 tcr: it lets SBCL open-code the COMPLEMENT, since it can use funcall rather than apply 14:25:43 an example function for gsll 14:25:59 Sikander: you probably want to use cond + subtypep 14:26:25 I think that's cleaner than hardcoding a lambda 14:27:02 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-95.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:27:17 I don't follow 14:27:27 spradnyesh1 [n=pradyus@122.166.151.40] has joined #lisp 14:27:42 ensure-function is ftyped to return a function 14:27:59 the previous version, rather than using (complement predicate), had (lambda (x) (not (funcall predicate x))) 14:28:17 tcr: great, that would work 14:28:29 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.166.151.40] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:28:49 tcr: oh, I guess SBCL wasn't picking up that declaration info then? Try removing the type declaration for predicate, SBCL gives a warning that it can't open-code complement 14:28:56 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-112.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:29:06 I think this code is more idiomatic 14:30:25 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:30:35 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 14:31:32 joswig: restart names are symbols 14:32:03 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-40-161.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:32:19 I thought you were asking for the restart prompt string 14:32:49 Bah CL type system really lacks a way to say that a return type derives from an argument type 14:32:49 Krystof: how about use-string then? like the use-value restart for unbound symbols 14:33:18 tcr: that sounds too dynamic for an old, dead, static language like CL :) 14:33:35 (also, note that there are two cases, input and output) 14:33:44 Krystof: The restart should be named the same for the two cases or not? 14:34:06 Krystof: I think going with use-value and store-value is good, since they're standard CL restarts 14:34:28 -!- spradnyesh1 [n=pradyus@122.166.151.40] has left #lisp 14:34:51 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.166.151.40] has joined #lisp 14:35:09 arnee [n=arnee@a89-182-199-216.net-htp.de] has joined #lisp 14:35:31 -!- ziga` [n=user@89.142.52.84] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:36:38 girzel [n=user@123.121.193.147] has joined #lisp 14:40:55 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:40:58 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:40:59 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-220-135.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:17 Reaver2 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 14:43:47 Axius [n=ojof@92.85.216.105] has joined #lisp 14:48:12 tcr: at the moment, I'm after the best names 14:48:31 I'd also like opinions on whether use-value would be wrong 14:52:11 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-220-135.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:24 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:36 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:54:56 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:56:15 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:00 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:59:04 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:59:11 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 15:01:28 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.85.216.105] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:01:58 -!- prip [n=_prip@host61-121-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:09:48 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host98.190-138-131.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:12:13 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-220-135.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:13:30 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-93.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 15:14:31 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:15:21 nyquist pasted "a HUGE question, more lie a story" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89603 15:15:41 this really a huge post 15:16:10 when I think about it I come to admit that useing a blog post somewhere would be a better solution... 15:16:24 s/useing/using/ 15:17:44 gio123 [n=jhjhxh@gprs1.gprs.ge] has joined #lisp 15:17:54 is monday hollyday in portugal? 15:19:55 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-253-19.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:17 nyquist: wrt lisp, browse http://cliki.net, there are lists of tutorials and books, etc. 15:22:51 nyquist: wrt maths, you could read a couple of good math for cs books, and a couple of algorithms books. 15:23:01 -!- joga [n=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:24:43 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:25:05 nyquist: read: http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/03/math-for-programmers.html 15:25:19 nyquist: use books.google.com and search for math for programmers 15:25:35 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:25:37 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@186.124.174.218] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:25:51 nyquist: use books.google.com and search for: introduction algorithm 15:26:34 nyquist: and of couse, read and watch the videos of sicp 15:26:37 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:26:40 minion: tell nyquist about sicp 15:26:40 nyquist: look at sicp: The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available under the CC-BY-NC Licence at (HTML), (Texinfo), and (PDF). Video lectures are available under the CC-BY-SA licence at 15:27:45 pjb: for algorithms, is the Cormen book pretty much the way to go? 15:28:07 nyquist, you are near to Austria and Germany, you could try to get in contact with a university there 15:28:13 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:28:44 cvandusen: depends on the goal. I'm not sure it's ideal if one wants to build an understanding of the topic. It does make a good reference book. 15:29:02 pjb: thanks! will do 15:29:13 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [No route to host] 15:29:16 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-98-116-202-61.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:58 joswig: I am working full time, I have to support my family so unievrsity does not seem like an option for me at the moment 15:30:05 pkhuong: ah. I hear that it's the best quite a lot, but yes, I guess the goal would influence the route... 15:30:07 joswig: or you ment something else 15:30:46 in Germany we have the 'Fernuniversität' which is for people who only have time in the evening or at weekends 15:30:57 and can't attend a university at home 15:31:30 for example: http://www.fernuni-hagen.de/ 15:31:34 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:31:53 *nyquist* is making a note on Fernuniversitat 15:32:47 though it is in Germany, they offer computer science 15:33:01 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:14 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:33:32 joga [n=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 15:34:38 also check out the open courseware from MIT 15:34:40 http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/courses/av/#ElectricalEngineeringandComputerScience 15:35:04 joswig: thanks, on it 15:35:30 there are also online study groups for various topics 15:36:05 -!- Reaver2 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:36:29 Axius [n=ojof@92.84.29.55] has joined #lisp 15:36:39 joswig: any specific one you want to mention? 15:36:59 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-31-198.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:37:28 *nyquist* is googling all the staff he is suggested about 15:37:29 there is an #sicp channel 15:39:30 check out some of the Scheme resources like HTDP: http://www.htdp.org/ 15:40:08 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-220-135.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:40:19 joswig: very interesting, indeed 15:40:52 froydnj: (or anyone else with an opinion) is there a good reason why we can't use string->octets to implement sb-alien external formats? 15:44:31 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 15:45:34 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 15:46:11 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.84.29.55] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:47:17 Krystof: that sounds reasonable, actually 15:47:30 since the octets stuff comes with all the SAP bits too 15:50:32 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 15:51:22 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 15:53:43 -!- gio123 [n=jhjhxh@gprs1.gprs.ge] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:00:18 lpolzer [n=leslie@dslb-088-073-195-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:04 when i place a defmacro in a .lisp file an load it the macro doesn't seem to be available, is there something special i need to do 16:01:12 s/an/and 16:02:16 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.219.111] has joined #lisp 16:03:29 konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 16:04:14 what exactly do you try? 16:04:42 -!- xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:04:47 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 16:04:50 perhaps you don't have the right package active? 16:05:46 tcr i'm assuming now that i create a package with the macro then :use that 16:05:48 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 16:06:15 -!- pem_ [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:06:17 export also 16:06:23 i have never made a macro before 16:06:37 I think it's more of a package issue. 16:06:43 the only way it seems to be available is when i enter it directly into the repl 16:07:18 i assume one shouldn't define the macro in the package one wants to use it in 16:07:23 or is that ok 16:07:56 if a package A uses a package B, all symbols which are exported from B will be available to A 16:08:25 So if you want to use the macro without having to explicitly qualify it, you have to export its name from its home-package 16:08:43 i am in the package though 16:09:18 you dont have (in-package) in file that you are loading ? 16:09:18 you dont have (in-package ... in file that you are loading ? 16:09:22 ups 16:09:22 I suggest you paste a self-contained example 16:09:43 ya i do there is defun's in the file and they are fine 16:10:16 -!- benny` is now known as benny 16:11:40 no sorry something screwy was happening 16:12:30 sorry guys i made a silly 16:13:46 tell at least what so we can point at you and laugh 16:13:47 i have a compile function which i use to load my files, i had updated it with the new macro file but forgot to reload the file 16:14:01 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.39] has joined #lisp 16:14:04 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-31-198.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:14:27 You know, you could just use Slime :-) 16:14:45 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-91340.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 16:14:57 lol that means all those other function changes where never tested as i was always using the previous definitions, 16:15:28 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 16:15:28 i was refactoring some code, i was surprised how well it was going, it always seemed to work, now i know 16:15:30 doh 16:15:51 i was never loading the refactored code 16:17:21 i think i need to revise my package management, it was ok when things were small its getting more difficult now 16:18:02 froydnj: oh, it does? I assumed that I'd just do (bit-bash-copy (string-to-octets ...)) 16:18:08 yep as i suspected the refactored code doesn't work at all 16:19:03 quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has joined #lisp 16:19:05 forehead meet palm 16:20:19 p0a [n=user@athedsl-384828.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:20:21 -!- literal [n=hinrik@u.nix.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:20:25 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 16:20:27 fucking yacc 16:21:38 What is it doing to you? 16:21:46 -!- gerry_ [n=gerry@58.55.87.62] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:21:55 messes with my psychology 16:22:10 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:22:16 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:22:20 *p0a* will paste actual question 16:22:35 Ah. A compiler-writer friend of mine once said that "yacc made the hard part harder" of writing a compiler. 16:24:35 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 16:24:46 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-100-114.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 16:24:47 my problem is really basic 16:24:54 I'm far from writing a compiler 16:25:26 What about yacc will make it easier than just writing it by hand? 16:25:39 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 16:25:55 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-215-148-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 16:26:13 Haven't yet witnessed that part 16:26:23 Perhaps when the grammar is provided as a yacc file 16:26:34 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:45 If it is simple enough, I would be tempted to just do it by hand. 16:28:02 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 16:28:39 p0a pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89604 16:29:15 Besides, you can't speak yacc with a lisp. 16:29:16 wgl: it's simple, but that's not the point, I want to learn yacc, but it's so damn weird. I think it's a combination of errors from my part, due to frustration, that do not have only to do with yacc. 16:29:23 Tordek [n=tordek@host213.190-230-92.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 16:29:37 for example, sometimes I forgot to compile some forms when testing the package; that led to errors that I shouldn't be seeing if the appropriate forms had compiled 16:29:57 Nevermind all taht, can anyone help me with that paste? 16:30:50 p0a: Ah. Well it seems that you want to have a rule for commands that is 'command command' then an additional rule that is 'commands commands command' meaning that a command is made up of either one command, or a bunch of commands followed by a command. 16:30:59 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-197-14-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:32:03 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:32:08 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:32:24 If I understand, (foo bar (baz ...)) in yacc means: Rule 'foo', (or (matches input bar) (matches input (baz ...))) 16:32:30 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-150-239.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:32:48 But is that all? Can't I be more specific on those rules? Or are they sufficient to build any kind of grammar? 16:33:09 wgl: I'll try now 16:34:00 -!- milanj- [n=milan@93.87.152.48] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:34:26 damn it how do I make something optional 16:34:41 Well, i haven't done this in lisp, but in bnf or ebnf to command-line yacc. The way that I think about them for 'commands -> command' means a command produces command, and 'commands -> commands command' means that commands produces commands followed by another command. 16:35:25 Okay. (commands (command command)) works for (heat on heat off) input. But it doesn't work for (heat on) input, nor for (heat on heat off heat on) input. 16:35:28 Because it has to be exact 16:35:44 Can't I do something like (commands command*) where command* means "one or more command"? 16:36:17 ...rtfm? 16:36:22 Unfortunately not with cl-yacc 16:36:48 Is cl-yacc crap 16:36:51 or is there another way to do it? 16:36:57 Jafet: WHAT manual?! please let me know. 16:37:05 It doesn't have a manual? 16:37:09 Why are you using it then 16:37:33 because I want to write an interpreter for a pl in cl 16:37:50 you probably want some sugar on top cl-yacc 16:38:08 tcr: I take it then that it can be done. Can you help me with http://paste.lisp.org/display/89604 16:38:16 I normally suggest using libraries that you can find out how to use 16:38:28 Or at least just explain me what do I have to read in onder to understand grammar or whatever it is yacc is making use of 16:38:33 p0a: was the yacc-tests.lisp with its examples any help? 16:38:50 wgl: do you mean teh one that parses "1 + 2 * 3"? 16:39:26 Well for some reason I tried to play with the source but I did not get the expected results, none of the times I made a modification to observe the effect 16:39:34 it's trivial to turn EBNF into BNF, whether automatically or manually. 16:39:39 Er, there isn't a parser combinators library for CL? 16:39:54 p0a: Looking at it for the first time it seems that there are some more complex examples than that. 16:40:22 If you think that's a challenge, then indeed you need to read up on parsers. Any introduction at all that covers regular and context free languages will be fine. 16:41:19 recommend me one please 16:41:47 wgl: I wasn't aware of that file. I did look at the cl-yacc.tar.gz or whatever the file is, and the manual too, I only saw what I explained here. I'll look again for it 16:42:03 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [No route to host] 16:42:12 Right. the part that yacc makes harder is the semantic part, sometimes requiring extra productions to be sure things come through when you can use them. 16:42:14 lichtblau: it's a chore manually 16:42:27 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:42:59 p0a: I think you can probably steal some ideas from yacc-tests.lisp as they do the term/expression thing and a few other things. 16:43:23 tcr: it certainly is 16:43:44 p0a: you want (commands (command commands #'list*) ()) 16:43:45 p0a: and as lichtblau says, a good introductory chapter on yacc will be very useful. 16:44:19 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host98.190-138-131.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:44:41 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 16:45:01 p0a: dragon book for the compiler perspective. cinderella book for more theoretical background. 16:45:36 I stated it previously, but it's beyond me why the author of cl-yacc does not want to include some sugar 16:45:42 Which is the cinderella book? 16:46:03 The dragon book doesn't use lisp 16:46:05 Which dragon book? 16:46:28 *p0a* thinks there's no way he'll read that book just to get some yacc examples working ... 16:46:30 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 16:46:43 anyway for now I'm set 16:46:56 I love lisp-2 so much. 16:46:58 I'll take a look at those examples and what tcr said and I'll look up more on BNF and CFG, whatever these are. 16:47:09 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 16:47:13 from the cl-yacc site, things he wont implement - a convenient syntax for repetitions and optional syntax. You can do that quite easily with additional rules. 16:52:43 though its recursive enumerability need here right? 16:53:06 Is yacc:define-parser supposed to have functions that build the AST or can I also have them modifying state and doing otehr things? 16:53:25 forget about it 16:53:25 sykopomp - it sure beats logological monism 16:53:26 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-384828.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 16:53:39 ayrnieu: BIG WORDS WAT 16:53:55 minion chant 16:54:03 minion: chant 16:54:03 MORE ON BNF 16:54:13 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@pD9E6FCF5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 16:54:32 Yo' be callin' BNF a moreon? 16:54:43 xan-afk_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:54:49 Jafet: lol 16:56:16 Anyone know how to get a backtrace with ECL? I can't find it in the manual or trivial-backtrace sources. 16:56:43 programmatically? 16:57:33 tcr: preferably. :) 16:57:47 redline6561: look into swank-ecl.lisp, compute-backtrace 16:57:50 can slime tell me which file a function is defined in? 16:57:57 tcr: Thanks. 16:58:35 Guthur: It can you even tell you where a function is _used_ in 16:59:35 is there anything it can't do hehe, i suppose i am going to have to look at the manual, right 17:00:59 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-253-19.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:01:11 tcr: is it just that the guy isn't working on this kind of improvement or is he actively refusing patches? 17:05:48 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:07:49 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:07:51 lichtblau: I have no idea, but it's my impression that he's reluctant 17:07:52 -!- xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:08:16 there seems to be some ebnf thingie in anderson's cl-xml 17:09:33 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:10:03 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has joined #lisp 17:14:02 Axius [n=ojof@92.84.19.76] has joined #lisp 17:14:43 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 17:15:35 -!- arnee [n=arnee@a89-182-199-216.net-htp.de] has quit [] 17:17:35 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:53 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:18:43 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.84.19.76] has quit [Client Quit] 17:19:49 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 17:20:09 ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:26 tcr: ok. should be doable easily as a separate cl-yacc-contrib project, right? 17:22:28 (Something to ponder the next time I'm going to use cl-yacc.) 17:22:33 *deepfire* grits teeth and enables winner-mode 17:22:59 arnee [n=arnee@a89-182-199-216.net-htp.de] has joined #lisp 17:24:29 lichtblau: The author is also moaning about cl-yacc patches floating around that he do not want bug reports about. So I think it may make sense to create some cl-bnf project which merely depends on cl-yacc 17:26:10 tsuru [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:18 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-3.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 17:28:58 perhaps cl-bnf would be a much better name than cl-yacc-contrib, yes. 17:29:24 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.166.151.40] has left #lisp 17:30:15 I can see his point with the "floating around" though, and it's unrelated, I think. 17:30:36 What he's meaning is that at some point clbuild actually pointed to a broken cl-yacc fork. That was a bad mishap, and all my fault for not using the upstream URL. It's long been resolved though. 17:30:37 xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 17:31:25 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.166.151.40] has joined #lisp 17:31:56 btw I think the entry for named-readtables points to the old repo 17:32:26 I don't use clbuild at home, so I can't check. I'll next week when I'm at work. 17:32:39 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 17:33:20 named-readtables get_darcs http://common-lisp.net/project/editor-hints/darcs/named-readtables/ #associate readtables with names 17:34:40 -!- quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:34:46 ok 17:35:08 mstevens [n=mstevens@212.183.140.17] has joined #lisp 17:36:57 rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:39:30 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.39] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:44:55 Hi.Would anyone care to recommend a Linux/ implementation of Lisp for first-timer? 17:45:00 Launchpad has some REST API, so how about creating a bug tracker for clbuild, and then create some clbuild ticket command to make it convenient for people to submit/update repository urls 17:45:14 rm200910: SBCL in combination with Slime 17:46:16 thanks tcr. I'll give it a go 17:47:10 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-98-116-202-61.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 17:47:17 TDT` [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has joined #lisp 17:47:28 lichtblau: Would you approve something like that? 17:48:42 Hmm, might have been nice if FORMAT included a finish-output directive. 17:48:47 -!- TDT` [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has left #lisp 17:48:51 -!- TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:49:25 TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has joined #lisp 17:50:08 For c.l.l, is there another service better than google groups for viewing it - I see a boatload of spam there. 17:51:17 *deepfire* launches automated testing of desire's project definitions / remote reachability 17:51:54 TDT: Use an actual NNTP server 17:51:57 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:52:29 your university or isp may provide one, otherwise there's individual.net and eternal-september.org 17:52:39 -!- lpolzer [n=leslie@dslb-088-073-195-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:53:24 Eachother [n=quassel@pool-77-222-127-92.is74.ru] has joined #lisp 17:53:58 Thanks, ISP may..that's a good question, the university doesn't, that I'm sure of. I'll check eternal-september, I heard of that one before. 17:54:17 TDT, or, alternatively, I find that http://www.keyongtech.com/lisp/ is quite good. 17:54:35 Read-only, though. 17:55:02 minion: c.l.l? 17:55:03 c.l.l: comp.lang.lisp is a Lisp-related Usenet group, available spam-free from individual.net, eternal-september.org, or a university or ISP near you 17:55:07 nice 17:55:18 Ok, my automated joy was interrupted by git segfaulting on me. 17:55:42 lol, I should have tried minion...I rarely remember to use it. 17:55:49 TDT: I just added that :) 17:55:54 if i want to create and arbitrary number of variables within a loop (not loop construct just iteration) will i need to use special variables or can i loop in a let bind 17:56:02 since I see people answering that question very often 17:56:08 Adlai: ah ok, nice 17:56:25 hmm, this might help... 17:56:28 Speaking of minion, is the source available on that, or is it open source? 17:56:56 minion: alias comp.lang.lisp as: c.l.l 17:56:57 OK, done. 17:57:03 minion: comp.lang.lisp? 17:57:03 comp.lang.lisp: Everybody's favourite newsgroup: comp.lang.lisp is an excellent place to get help with a programming problem, but if you ask about an obvious homework problem you'll be unmercifully chided, or helped in ways your teacher will least expect. http://www.cliki.net/comp.lang.lisp 17:58:18 hmm, I guess he has two possible answers 17:59:10 Krystof: yes, that's what all the INSTATIATE-OCTETS-DEFINITION cruft does 18:00:00 Douglish pasted "repeat macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89607 18:00:03 Hi everybody .. 18:00:45 Adlai: Is minion open source, as in on github or anything? 18:00:57 minion: source? 18:00:58 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``source''. 18:01:01 hmm 18:01:10 I'm suppose to write this, how can I create a macro like this? My idea was sometihng like (defmacro body until condition) `(loop ,@body (if ,condition return))) but it won't work. 18:01:21 TDT: His source is available somewhere, not sure where... check c-l.net, probably somewhere there. 18:01:48 Douglish: You first have to grovel the body for the termination condition 18:02:11 Douglish: basically split the body in actual iteration forms, and termination condition 18:02:29 tcr: well, (loop do ,@body) (: 18:03:04 gio123 [n=jhjhxh@gprs1.gprs.ge] has joined #lisp 18:03:10 Adlai: k k, thanks, I will. 18:03:12 That's cute. Not a real solution though. 18:03:33 It's probably an exercise to improve his macro skills :) 18:03:43 Exactly. :) 18:04:17 But I'm not sure how can I do something like getting 2 last parts of a list or so. 18:04:26 Douglish: Once you have the iteration forms, and the termination condition, write an explicit loop involving TAGBODY 18:04:58 PROG or DO might be acceptable. 18:05:57 Douglish: Well try it 18:07:08 It would be much easier in perl. :( 18:07:23 I doubt that. 18:07:40 my ($cond, undef, @parts) = reverse @array; 18:07:49 And I got it. :) 18:08:03 What's the the user forgets to write a well-formed REPEAT form? 18:08:13 What's if 18:08:21 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@212.183.140.17] has quit [] 18:09:22 That line was kind of classic. 18:10:13 quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has joined #lisp 18:11:38 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.193.147] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:13:13 ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 18:13:22 pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has joined #lisp 18:18:29 -!- ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:18:33 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.166.151.40] has left #lisp 18:19:09 mrm [n=mmourato@94.41.17.72.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has joined #lisp 18:19:30 -!- rm200910 [n=quassel@78-86-87-67.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:20:29 can i pass &rest and &body to a macro 18:21:29 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-78.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:21:33 not at the same level 18:22:02 and i can't pass a list either? 18:22:09 why not? 18:22:50 i get and error on (list "some" "thing") saying list is not of type sequence 18:23:31 that code piece is a bit small 18:23:50 Guthur: perhaps paste an example? 18:24:21 Guthur: do you know what I mean by "level"? 18:24:28 -!- Eachother [n=quassel@pool-77-222-127-92.is74.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:24:54 serichsen: honestly...no 18:25:09 this is my first foray into macro land 18:25:12 Guthur: ok. Macros take a destructuring lambda list 18:25:58 ya i see that mentioned in PCL, but i wasn't sure what he was on about 18:26:14 (defmacro foo ((&rest bar-forms) &body body) ...) is possible 18:27:08 It would then be called like (foo (bar-form1 bar-form2) body-form body-form ...) 18:27:37 so, the "level" is the recursion level of the destructuring bind 18:27:57 isn't this same as (defmacro foo (bar-forms &body body) ...)? 18:28:12 I know that this is not the point,just curious. 18:28:34 yes 18:29:01 Thanks. 18:29:06 no it's not 18:29:08 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 18:29:12 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:29:27 However, the destructuring list allows more parameters 18:29:38 in the latter case a user can write (foo :bar ...) 18:29:55 in the former case, an error will be signalled during the destructuring 18:30:02 ah, yes, errors are caught 18:30:11 thanks serichsen i am going to experiment with it a little 18:30:44 Eachother [n=kvirc@pool-77-222-127-92.is74.ru] has joined #lisp 18:30:45 -!- gio123 [n=jhjhxh@gprs1.gprs.ge] has left #lisp 18:31:02 maus [n=maus@222.253.84.171] has joined #lisp 18:31:06 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 18:31:12 Also: the former one describes the syntax of the macro more usefully, for example for development environments 18:32:24 leadnose [i=leadnose@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 18:33:37 arne [n=arnee@a89-182-28-155.net-htp.de] has joined #lisp 18:35:10 which reminds of having to merge my autodoc rewrite 18:35:18 rkm_ [n=rkm@rrcs-96-10-234-78.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:35:32 fax [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 18:35:33 -!- pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has left #lisp 18:36:09 yf-is-fyf [i=c66cc528@gateway/web/freenode/x-hngaoiebociogfes] has joined #lisp 18:38:13 -!- rkm [n=rkm@rrcs-96-10-234-78.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:38:13 -!- rkm_ is now known as rkm 18:38:54 i found what the list problem was, i iterate over (list "some" "value") at macro time, which i see now is taken as a literal list, and so LIST was included 18:40:26 (list "some" "value") is not a list of strings; it is an expression that evaluates to a list of strings 18:41:05 Jafet: well, that depends to what evaluator you send it. 18:41:44 at macro time it is seen as a list of (LIST "some" "value"), correct? 18:41:45 All you can say, is that it's a list that contains the symbol named "LIST", and two strings, the first containing the characters #\s #\o #\m #\e and the other the characters #\v #\a #\l #\u #\e. 18:41:53 Yes, macros operate at a different level 18:42:05 well, that depends on the language you're talking of 18:42:08 Guthur: indeed, macros get their arguments unevaluated. 18:42:37 this macro stuff is different, if this works i'll paste it 18:47:12 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 18:47:27 -!- pdk [n=test@c-24-131-66-4.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:50:00 -!- arnee [n=arnee@a89-182-199-216.net-htp.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:50:00 -!- arne is now known as arnee 18:50:25 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.84.171] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:50:56 arne [n=arnee@a89-182-28-155.net-htp.de] has joined #lisp 18:52:09 -!- arnee [n=arnee@a89-182-28-155.net-htp.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:52:10 -!- arne is now known as arnee 18:52:18 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:59 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:01:37 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-253-19.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:41 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:05:27 o no 19:05:56 that silly paper about generated assembly in various CLs has (a) been submitted to proggit (b) attracted flies 19:06:27 oh no 19:07:42 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 19:08:21 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has joined #lisp 19:09:51 *froydnj* belatedly realizes his contribution to that was on proggit and not lispit 19:10:44 is it bad paper, 19:13:50 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-31-198.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:13:51 meh performance junkies 19:14:18 yes? 19:14:39 hehe just checking you were still there 19:15:21 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 19:15:55 -!- demmel [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-203-030.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:16:08 froydnj: bleah, I wish I hadn't had this idea. The octets support for use-value on encoding is... mixed 19:16:51 it looks ok in string->latin%, but string->utf-8 and multibyte looks broken 19:17:11 actually the string->utf-8 case is probably only in my branch; there was probably no encoding error into utf-8 before I started messing around 19:18:42 Is there an operation to format that takes the arguments and uses it in the format string. (format t "~2t") ;; I whant to send the number "2" as argument. 19:19:06 honestly though the obsession with performance is in some respects ridiculous, if you want extreme number crunching send it to a stream processor and watch the numbers fly, if you want to build ever more complex software go for higher levels of abstraction, imho 19:19:06 ~vt ? 19:19:08 ~vt 19:19:22 thanx 19:19:56 Guthur: my best guess for what that paper was for was to show to Franz saying "why should we pay vast numbers of ¥ for your compiler?" 19:20:09 because otherwise it seems utterly pointless 19:24:49 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:24:53 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1D27C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:53 right, "a stream processor". 19:26:51 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:26:51 I'm pretty sure that for good number crunching you have fortran send it over to your GPU ;) 19:27:04 -!- fax [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has left #lisp 19:27:17 You just write it in cuda 19:27:35 Jafet: yeees.. for the gpu :) 19:28:07 -!- Eachother [n=kvirc@pool-77-222-127-92.is74.ru] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.3 Shiny(svn-3438) http://www.kvirc.net"] 19:28:55 Itanium, P4, Cell, GPGPU... None of this is magic. 19:29:15 itanium is a bit magic. but yeah. there's no magic :) 19:29:34 schmx: magically expensive, you mean? 19:29:49 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:04 stick FPGA in there, before or after GPGPU. 19:30:20 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:31:47 I'd actually like an itanium. Not for any practical purpose.. I just like odd dead hardware :) but way to expensive. 19:34:21 I saw an itanium 2 work well, once, and it was impressive. I don't think it would have been a good engineering decision to go with more of them though, since it was embarrassingly parallel and we could just get more COTS x86-64. 19:35:26 (: 19:35:51 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:35:52 I saw some graph on things and it seems that x86-64 has pretty much taken out ia64 alltogether. 19:36:01 *schmx* goes back to googling 19:40:59 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:11 -!- m4thrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.177] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:42:12 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:44 m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:44:56 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:45:23 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 19:49:01 -!- nipra [n=nipra@117.195.104.196] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:52:57 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:55:04 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-31-198.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:55:26 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:31 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:55:39 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:56:07 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:58:22 Rajin_ [n=Rajin@c174076.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 19:58:32 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 20:01:43 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:02:36 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@188-23-70-35.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:02:54 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:04:15 how can i convert what is ("some" "value") at macro time into a list a runtime, it keeps trying to call it as a function when use the comma notation on it 20:04:25 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-112.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:04:34 i suppose i could build a new list out of it, but is there any alternatives 20:05:00 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-180-208.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:05:17 not even sure if building a list at macro time works 20:07:55 nipra [n=nipra@117.195.104.196] has joined #lisp 20:08:14 um 20:08:17 don't use a comma 20:08:18 -!- ruediger_ is now known as ruediger 20:09:46 mstevens [n=mstevens@212.183.134.209] has joined #lisp 20:10:30 -!- m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:12:05 frodef [n=frode@226.80-202-87.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:13:30 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:14:08 -!- yf-is-fyf [i=c66cc528@gateway/web/freenode/x-hngaoiebociogfes] has quit ["Page closed"] 20:14:33 but then it is lost after macro expansion and becomes an undefined variable 20:15:20 it is something i pass to the macro, i want it available at macro time and runtime 20:16:07 at macro time I rebuilt them as a (LIST "some" "value") 20:16:10 which works 20:16:52 this macro malarky is crazy but cool 20:17:33 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:18:28 huh, what variable? 20:18:46 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:20:01 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-253-19.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:20:34 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-42-90.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:21:34 exactly it isn't one, so i have to use the comma to get the data from macro time 20:22:19 why do you need it at macroexpand time? 20:22:35 to create variables 20:22:43 and the shorthand for quotifying something in a macro is `',stuff 20:23:31 equivalent to (list 'quote stuff) although you're actually doing (cons 'list stuff) and assuming that stuff is all self-evaluating literals 20:23:40 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-32-169.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:23:44 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:24:23 oh, this list is a list of variables to define and then to use at run time? 20:24:33 rahul indeed 20:24:50 i also need them as strings as well 20:25:01 as strings? 20:25:26 Guthur: what input are you feeding your macro, and what output do you want? 20:25:29 ya its a crazy way of decodeing an xmls list 20:26:30 why are you using a macro to parse XML? 20:26:35 you don't need them as strings, really. print them to the stream 20:26:53 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:27:00 -!- nipra [n=nipra@117.195.104.196] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:27:11 if case is an issue bind *print-case* around the print for those specific names 20:27:41 Adlai the xml is already parsed, it is the list form that XMLS produces 20:27:56 Guthur: right, but you have a list at run-time, not compile 20:28:00 * compile-time 20:28:31 oh ya but i was do lots of loops and when clauses to get the stuff and i was sick of repeating myself 20:28:57 So write a macro to write all those loops and when clauses for ya. 20:28:59 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:12 less talk more code! 20:29:20 so the macro accepts the names of the elements to retrieve and then extracts the data, it only goes along one single level though, no depth 20:29:37 schmx thats what i did hehe 20:29:47 Guthur: It sounds like your macro is doing a lot of work not suitable for a macro. 20:29:58 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 20:30:04 schmx most likely but it was hoot making it 20:30:08 I had a similar macro for dealing with XMLS data, except all it did was bind a closure for searching the XML 20:30:15 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:30:17 Guthur: (: 20:30:17 i know alot more than i did 3 hours ago 20:30:23 Excellent. 20:30:58 something like (with-xmls-searcher (list (assoc-xmls "foo") (assoc-xmls "bar"))) 20:30:59 demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-095-016.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:37 not sure if it's that great an idea though, it was one of the first macros I ever wrote 20:31:43 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:32:03 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 20:32:09 Adlai: seems reasonable in principle to me 20:32:36 well, actually, it would be nicer just to use a variable with an object, I think 20:32:37 rahul: yeah, I liked it, it let me elide a lot of arguments to assoc/find etc 20:32:48 because your macro can't be nested 20:32:59 true 20:33:01 better would be: 20:33:29 (with-xmls-searcher (name ) ...) 20:33:41 jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 20:33:45 and then name would get flet to the searcher 20:33:52 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-112.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:34:09 or (let ((name (make-xmls-searcher ...))) (assoc-xmls name "foo")) 20:34:21 ah, but this way the closure can be stack allocated :) 20:34:48 the closure is probably the smallest object you'd be creating 20:35:04 yo rahul, I heard you've spent the months of absence on a lone island partying with aboriginal beauties. No really what did you do? 20:35:15 if you cared much about efficiency in searching... if it's just a single scan, no big deal 20:35:40 tcr: well, I was on P.P. Island in Thailand for 3 days 20:35:54 I knew you! 20:36:26 basically, I had no free time really 20:36:52 what time I had not working or sleeping or fulfilling family obligations, I spent out and about 20:37:18 So you found a new job? 20:37:44 yeah 20:37:51 and unfound it :) 20:38:09 jensli [n=liii@c83-254-66-163.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:38:18 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:38:53 -!- jensli [n=liii@c83-254-66-163.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 20:39:10 Perhaps it's time to change profession? 20:39:24 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A18E7.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:40:14 benny [n=benny@i577A18E7.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:40:16 Guthur pasted "Macro Madness" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89610 20:40:34 sorry for the delay the cat came in an started getting in the way 20:40:48 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student167-152.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 20:40:55 anyway it was only a prove of concept, messed up concept maybe 20:41:13 but it was a create learning experience if nothing else, as this is my first macro 20:41:41 tcr: well, time to get out of the financial industry 20:42:26 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:39 s/create/great 20:44:38 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:36 ntd [n=user@daneel.cc.gt.atl.ga.us] has joined #lisp 20:48:53 -!- schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:48:58 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:50:32 Why can I not use readtable-case :upcase to upcase an interned symbol? 20:50:37 quidnunc pasted "readtable case" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89612 20:50:41 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit ["Disconnecting from stoned server."] 20:51:02 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:18 quidnunc: because readtable-case affects the reader 20:51:26 mogunus [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:36 tcr: That's what I want isn't it? 20:51:44 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 20:51:51 it affects the way it processes the string that it then passes to intern 20:52:15 tcr: So how can I control the case of the interned symbol? 20:52:28 You can't 20:53:04 Well, I guess you can on clisp 20:53:13 quidnunc: you could create a new symbol 20:53:36 tcr: How is it done on clisp? 20:53:59 Adlai: Using intern? 20:54:08 yeah 20:54:18 or make-symbol if you don't care about the package 20:54:24 quidnunc: there's a package-case slot for packages which affects intern. I'm only telling from memory, you have to check its implementation notes 20:54:50 What are you trying to solve? 20:56:33 there is alternative 3 which is use with-input-from-string and eval, but thats crazy hehe 20:56:39 tcr: I'm trying to build an AST that is passed to a library using dynamically generated symbol names. The dynamically generated symbol names (which are created by interning a string) are not the same case as the non-dynamically generated strings. 20:57:11 oh wait you just want a symbol, ignore that 20:59:16 Why can't you generate the symbol names in the right case? 21:00:47 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:02:18 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 21:03:02 tcr: When constructing the strings passed to intern I don't want to have to remember the case they should be in. 21:03:41 remember? 21:04:03 why should there be anything to remember? just do it right 21:04:47 rahul: If the case needs to be upper to conform to the AST DSL I don't want to have to write uppercase every time. I just want to use lower case everywhere. 21:05:01 then upcase the string before interning it 21:05:11 that's what the reader does 21:05:29 Alright 21:08:15 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["May the Coyoes cook you some hot chili some day!"] 21:09:14 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-124.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:10:13 -!- rkm [n=rkm@rrcs-96-10-234-78.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 21:10:51 mrSpec [n=Spec@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 21:12:50 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 21:13:13 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-124.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:14:57 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:57 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:29 rahul: Does the reader upcase the string before interning it regardless of readtable-case? 21:17:10 clhs 23.1.2 21:17:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/23_ab.htm 21:19:04 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:20:31 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:00 gaze [n=gaze@c-67-170-217-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:06 quidnunc: no it processes the string according to readtable-case 21:26:01 quidnunc: you could steal swank::casify-char, and write (map 'string #'casify-char string) 21:27:25 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:32:40 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:33:25 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:35:11 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-91340.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:35:56 -!- frodef [n=frode@226.80-202-87.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:40:49 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@212.183.134.209] has quit [] 21:41:26 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:43:31 -!- HET4 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:43:57 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:44:37 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.245.240] has joined #lisp 21:45:20 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:47:10 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 21:51:29 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:06 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:29 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:54:42 saikatc [n=saikatc@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:51 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:55:38 tcr: how can a function that works only on single characters work with readtable-case :invert? The spec says that it should only invert "if all of the unescaped letters in the extended token are of the same case". 21:55:41 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:56:46 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:58:11 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:59:15 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Client Quit] 22:00:52 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 22:03:51 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-3.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 22:04:41 serichsen: That's a right objection, and whoever wrote that function should be slapped with a cltl2 22:08:18 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:08:45 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:12:02 -!- gaze [n=gaze@c-67-170-217-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:14:45 Ok, folks, I just merged in the improved autodoc code I presented at ECLM. 22:15:10 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.245.240] has quit [] 22:16:12 yay, thanks (: 22:16:18 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:16:38 http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/hacks/slime/slime-snapshot-with-open-file.png 22:17:36 tcr: I don't need something "convenient for people to submit/update repository urls". 22:17:37 I need something convenient for me to apply those changes. 22:17:49 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 22:17:59 If you have a web solution covering that part, replacing manual maintainance of the files in darcs, that would be fabulous. 22:18:54 Hm yeah that's in fact a better idea 22:20:09 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-31-198.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:20:13 I mean, clbuild could just push changes to some public darcs repo where you could cherry-pick from 22:21:25 that sounds like something that could even be automateable via shell scripts 22:22:27 *tcr* actually learned "programming" by misusing bash as a programming language. Fortunately, he forgot everything. 22:23:04 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 22:24:45 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:25:18 -!- quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has quit [No route to host] 22:25:26 saikatc [n=saikatc@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:39 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-24-29.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:27:15 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 22:29:49 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-236-69-36.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:39 tcr, bash has some fun metaprogramming angle in it.. 22:33:27 *deepfire* had been through that too 22:36:05 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 22:37:00 quodlibetor [n=user@cpe-24-90-206-180.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:20 pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has joined #lisp 22:38:06 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:39:40 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590e8c89.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:40:12 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-112.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:42:22 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-236-69-36.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 22:45:25 gaze [n=gaze@c-67-170-217-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:40 mle [n=emily@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:35 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-124.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:49:14 -!- pfeyz [n=user@76.15.195.230] has left #lisp 22:49:27 -!- quodlibetor [n=user@cpe-24-90-206-180.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:50:00 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-124.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:50:08 -!- GrayMagiker [n=steve@c-76-18-86-163.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:52:58 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483AF11.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:58:14 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-189-2.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:55 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:45 -!- knobo [n=user@s0023-0003.dsl.start.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:00:04 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1D27C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:02:19 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.14.135] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:03:09 -!- demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-095-016.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 23:06:22 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@p579EA463.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 23:09:04 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-254-128.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:19 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-189-2.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:13:29 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:13:41 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:14:29 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-88-204.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:47 -!- Rajin_ [n=Rajin@c174076.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:15:14 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-254-128.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:17:00 hi, I'm trying to: (setf (funcall 'foo-title *foo*) "Bar") where foo-title is an accessor to the slot title in a class 'foo' but I'm getting: The function (SETF FUNCALL) is undefined. 23:17:34 (setf (foo-title *foo*) "Bar") 23:17:46 rvirding [n=chatzill@h138n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 23:17:57 clhs funcall 23:17:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_funcal.htm 23:18:00 pjb: I'm serializing/deserializing to I need to funcall a symbol ie. 'foo-title 23:18:06 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 23:18:07 ==> Function FUNCALL, not Accessor FUNCALL. 23:18:10 well, I need to somehow set it from the symbol 'foo-title 23:18:44 saikatc [n=saikatc@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:52 Then write your own (setf funcall), only it is forbidden to do so on cl:funcall, so you will have to shadow it or rename it. 23:18:57 egn: try funcall #'(setf foo-title), but that's not guaranteed to work for structures. 23:19:02 caddar [n=adam@c-76-123-138-243.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:15 pjb: pkhuong: thanks 23:19:28 (funcall (list 'setf accessor) new-value object) 23:20:22 that wouldn't work... 23:20:44 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:20:47 -!- caddar [n=adam@c-76-123-138-243.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.91.1"] 23:21:11 pjb: fdefinition. 23:22:24 right. Or (funcall (list 'setf accessor) ...) works, when there's an accessor. Not all setf-able places are implemented with an accessor... 23:23:18 that's not a function designator 23:24:19 paipimenta [n=paipimen@cpe-98-154-90-81.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:25:10 #1=(programmable . #1#) 23:25:17 is that a lisp syntax joke/reference? 23:25:34 *paipimenta* is brand new at lisp.... just discovered SICP online videos and textbook 23:25:34 egn: why are you not using CLOS for something that requires MOP? 23:26:01 egn: and why don't you use one of the existing object serialization libraries? If you need to tweak the format a bit, just hack up the code. 23:26:32 paipimenta: it evaluates to (programmable programmable programmable programmable programmable programmable programmable ...) 23:27:01 rahul: would you recommend one specifically? 23:28:35 good night 23:28:41 -!- serichsen [n=user@hmbg-4d06d13a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["good fight"] 23:28:50 egn: I don't know what you need 23:29:03 paipimenta: that syntax will not work in scheme, by the way 23:29:09 at least I don't think it will... (?) 23:29:15 in scheme? 23:29:22 um, the langauge of SICP 23:29:37 a variation of lisp? 23:30:49 it's a splinter group from lisp, yeah 23:30:58 -!- DylanJ [n=QQ@unaffiliated/dylanj] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:31:13 actually, the language was mostly invented in order to write SICP :) 23:32:11 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:32:18 rahul: That's actually an interesting take on it 23:32:22 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:33:04 cvandusen: well, that's what happened 23:33:10 dunno what's interesting about that :) 23:33:37 I thought they were independent of each to some extent 23:33:46 yes 23:33:55 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-48-146.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 23:34:00 the scheme community broke off because they had separate goals 23:34:07 so they are independent now 23:34:50 separate goals from whom/what? 23:35:17 'scheme communities' 23:35:18 the AI course I took senior year had just switched to MATLAB.... i was curious as to what had came before, and i got scared by the short command names and the ()'s 23:35:56 paipimenta: good thing they didn't use Arc! :) 23:36:16 cvandusen: separate goals from the lisp community 23:36:26 rahul: ah 23:36:33 and yeah, now there are multiple factions in the scheme community 23:37:03 back then there were multiple factions in the lisp community: the one that formed scheme, the MIT-centered one, and the Stanford-centered one, roughlt 23:37:08 roughly 23:37:47 since there are more Lisps than Common Lisp, there are stillmore communities 23:37:53 rahul don't you mean separate from common lisp, scheme is still lisp 23:37:55 yes, that I knew. I just wasn't aware that scheme had been invented to write SICP 23:38:09 that's also not true 23:38:35 Guthur: well, scheme is in the family with common lisp, ML, and Haskell 23:38:50 cvandusen: it was a major reason for inventing scheme 23:39:10 rahul: I guess you have a source for that statement? 23:39:18 never heard haskell being added, are you talking about functional languages there 23:39:25 cvandusen: lisp was really messy at the time, so A&S wanted something simple to teach with 23:39:31 though CL is multi-paradigm 23:39:42 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 23:40:00 Guthur: I don't know what to call the family 23:40:05 joswig: which one? 23:40:16 that Scheme has been invented for SICP 23:40:17 The example that came to mind is Tolkein inventing Elvish so he could write LOTR 23:40:45 joswig: it was a major driving force, from what I've been told 23:40:46 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.219.111] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:40:57 and the source is? 23:40:59 well, not example... 23:41:13 parallel perhaps 23:41:15 joswig: lost in the mists of time and c.l.l 23:41:34 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:41:37 I think it was someone who was at MIT at the time 23:41:43 Scheme was defined in 1975 23:41:45 Steele 23:41:47 ? 23:41:51 SICP came in 1980 23:41:55 joswig: the original lambda papers? 23:41:55 probably not Steele 23:42:12 joswig: when did the class start being offered? 23:42:26 1980 23:42:27 I was referring to the person at MIT 23:42:28 they contain a statement that language design and teaching is a drive for the development of the early scheme iirc 23:42:33 paipimenta: welcome to #lisp! this channel is mainly about Common Lisp, and if you're interested in it I suggest you read this... 23:42:36 minion: before 23:42:37 before: Before you start learning Lisp and fixing all the wrongs in it, read this: http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/lisp-answers/ . It will save you, and us, much frustration 23:42:37 scheme wasn't used to teach a class before 1980? 23:43:15 the course was offered since 1980 and the book published in 1984 23:43:20 ok 23:43:37 according to PAIP it was 1975 23:43:44 so SICP was influenced Scheme, which appeared five years before through a wormhole 23:43:58 a MIT memo 349 from Sussman and Steele 23:44:02 Scheme in 1975 23:44:12 I think rahul used sicp roughly as "teaching vehicle" 23:44:19 yes, the SICP course in 1980 and the book in 1984 23:44:27 brought from the future by a benevolent super race of aliens 23:44:28 thats what PAIP says at the end of chapter on scheme in PAIP 23:44:42 it was only the start of course 23:44:53 well, I don't know about the timelines, but the statement was something along the lines of Sussman wanting to create a language that could be used for an intro course as opposed to lisp, which was sufficiently crufty that one needed some experience in programming to see through it 23:45:08 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:46:38 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:47:21 and there she blows http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Scheme_-_An_interpreter_for_extended_lambda_calculus.djvu/1 23:47:50 even uses the word SCHEME 23:48:07 http://cl-www.msi.co.jp/solutions/knowledge/lisp-world/tutorial/compiler-eval-e.pdf <--- did you guys read this paper? 23:48:43 it evaluates how good SBCL, ACL and LispWorks optimize code 23:49:03 ruediger i think its a pretty pointless paper 23:49:21 why? 23:49:40 i was shocked 23:49:54 why? 23:50:23 as has been said before if you need to crunch numbers there is better dedicated solutions, if you want to make software then its not really relevant 23:50:37 joswig: because they all failed at simple optimizations 23:51:16 thank god the real world is not simple 23:51:54 ruediger: I was shocked that the writers don't understand lisp 23:52:14 they think that a polymorphic add should be a single assembly instruction... 23:52:27 no 23:52:46 he adds all the declarations and the's necessary 23:52:53 ruediger: some of them are simple, others require much more thinking than might appear a priori, and in most cases, a DSL for numerical loops (or better, calls to BLAS/LAPACK/etc) would be better suited than CL at the task, even with a straight CL backend. 23:53:24 tcr: but I think his examples are important 23:53:40 but mostly, the methodology and the exact goals of the study are most unclear. 23:53:43 ruediger: I don't understand why a C programmer would expect a single assmebly instruction for a polymorpihic add, tho 23:54:38 rahul: because a C programmer might not understand that this is a polymorphic add. 23:55:24 ruediger: we are not responsible for a C programmer's ignorance of lisp... 23:55:45 yeah. That's why he explains it to C programmers so they can follow the paper 23:55:56 a C programmer also expects positive numbers added together to sometimes result in a negative 23:56:20 no. signed overflow is undefined in C ;-p 23:56:20 "Lisp should be wildly used." Bingo :-) 23:56:51 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-124.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:57:36 ruediger: I never claimed that C programmers' expectations correspond to what is actually allowed in C 23:57:45 ;) 23:58:20 I think side-effects stop the constant propagator in most compilers 23:59:06 if he did (let ((a 1) (b 2) (c 0)) (setq c (+ a b))) he might have better luck 23:59:08 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-225-152.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:59:35 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-124.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp