00:00:22 Oh, ok. So, basically, for every float operation, you clear out the unused high part? 00:00:27 how can i use a variable which is assigned to a path in another path, i mean after (setf home-path "/home/user") i want to point to "home-path/folder-a/" how can i do that 00:00:46 clhs merge-pathnames 00:00:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_merge_.htm 00:01:35 Demosthenes i didn't totally catch what you were doing but it you wanted to do some to an object after initialization you could maybe use reinitialize-instance. 00:01:51 never used it myself though and only just seen it actually 00:02:01 in a cond, i should be able to do (cond ((atom list) (print "got atom")...... to see if my list item is an atom correct? 00:02:39 rtoym: I rarely have to clear anything. Usually operations always clear or work on the whole vector and give me 0s when I pass 0s in. 00:02:47 correct 00:02:59 Mostly the key is to use full register moves all the time; that speeds up even scalar code fwiw. 00:03:41 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["leaving"] 00:05:37 shadowhywind: if a variable might take on an atom value, maybe name it better? 00:06:12 list can be an atom! 00:06:47 Guthur: basically i'm passing a large list to a object slot during make-instance that must remain available to all of the constructors (initialize-instance :after) but then should be wiped 00:06:59 stassats: true, but in that case shouldn't you be testing with (null list) ? 00:07:07 Adlai: i tried adding a cond statement to handle if there is an atom, however it doesn't match the (atom lst) 00:07:58 Demosthenes well you could use reinitialize-instance and pass nil to that slot, i think the others will be left intact 00:08:12 smells a little like abuse though 00:08:33 maybe be easier just to set the slot manually actually 00:08:40 well, perhaps i'm doing this backward. 00:09:12 its just a new one for me so i think i am drawn to the new shiny method hhh 00:09:37 the object represents an item from a file ,i pass the contents of that file in a normalized format to multiple objects while creating them so that they can extract their values from the list during creation. the issue is that the huge original list persists 00:10:07 perhaps i should just init an empty object and pass the data to a method 00:10:52 slackjaw [n=jolyonwh@cb8faac9.atp.nicta.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:11:08 Adlai pasted "COND example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89473 00:11:45 shadowhywind: start from that COND form and add in the appropriate actions 00:12:52 can i pass a parameter that isn't a slot to make-instance? 00:12:52 shadowhywind pasted "myversion" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89474 00:13:26 Demosthenes does the extraction logic really need to be in the objects, maybe just create a function that accepts the data and produces your objects, this assumes they are all getting initialized together, if you are carrying it out at arbitrary points in your program it doesn't really fit 00:13:29 Adlai: take a look at that example (I am still modifying it a bit though) but my cond (atom matches yours), however I get issues with mine 00:13:40 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:14:03 Demosthenes i tried that today, didn't seem to work 00:14:14 Guthur: the extract must happenin the object... 00:14:15 shadowhywind: why oh why are you using 'lst'? 00:14:20 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@DNab422133.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 00:14:38 Adlai: force of habbit 00:15:57 shadowhywind: why are you still doing that shenanigans with append? 00:16:04 I showed you how to do this much more cleanly with dbind 00:16:36 also, you're calling list operations on the form before you know whether it's a list or not 00:16:44 dbind? 00:16:44 Adlai: because I havn't worked that far down yet, since I knew append/cons worked. I was going to try getting the function to work correctly first, then go back and change it to dbind 00:16:57 -!- pixel5_ [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:17:06 stassats: I don't have tab-completion in ERC :( 00:17:20 (and havn't bothered making an abbrev for 'destructuring-bind'...) 00:17:21 Guthur: can i pass a parameter that isn't a slot to a constructor? 00:17:22 stassats: destructuring-bind 00:17:55 Demosthenes it complained at me for doing it, but someone else would need to confirm 00:18:11 -!- Hun [n=hun@80.153.55.38] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:19:15 Guthur: looks like i can by key 00:20:37 demosthenes great 00:20:45 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:27 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:24:27 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-112.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:25:04 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #lisp 00:26:05 Shamiq [n=Adium@wireless-165-124-97-214.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 00:28:15 |Wolf| [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 00:29:42 -!- |Wolf| [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 00:29:52 gaze [n=gaze@169-231-110-208.wireless.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 00:30:03 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@194.106.199.204] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:30:58 Adlai: are you serious!!! 00:31:05 Adlai: it was that freaken easy?! 00:32:07 shadowhywind: yes 00:32:28 i feel so ashamed now! 00:33:02 I kept trying to put the let statement before the destructuring-bind, which ofcourse errored out.. hehe 00:33:58 could I ask one more simple question regarding this thing? 00:34:01 you don't even need a let statement 00:34:03 yes? 00:34:53 why do you have (=3 (length form)) , should that be something like (not =3 (length form) to handle inputs of size 1 and 2? 00:35:23 or are you doing it the other way, only accepting inputs of size 3? 00:35:27 *Adlai* scratches head 00:35:33 don't you only want to accept (op arg1 arg2) ? 00:35:41 yah, hehe 00:35:53 aeron [n=aerrant_@129.101.136.195] has joined #lisp 00:35:57 shadowhywind: like (not (= 3 (length form))) to be working, I guess 00:36:23 what function can I use to grab the code from a lambda parameter? 00:36:45 "grab the code"? 00:36:52 shadowhywind: (/= 3 (length form)) if you want to write it shorter 00:37:03 stassats: to manipulate, alter 00:37:26 madnificent: hehe thanks, I was wondering what != representation in lisp was 00:37:47 aeron: i still can't make sense of your question 00:38:03 shadowhywind: hehe, I initially didn't want to bother you with it... glad I did it anyways :) 00:38:04 aeron: for starters, what do you mean by "lambda parameter"? 00:38:07 stassats: he wants source-code introspection. 00:38:25 aeron: 'grab the code' ? 00:38:27 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has joined #lisp 00:38:32 adlai, if I have a parameter to a function that is a lambda expression 00:39:29 aeron: so you're having (foobar (lambda (a b) (+ a b))), what do you want from that? do you want to execute the lambda or? 00:39:56 I want to do some manipulation to the code itself and return it 00:40:02 as a function 00:40:21 aeron: perhaps you want to write a macro? 00:41:06 Ralith: i suppose - what I'm trying to do is basically partial application, but with parameters named directly 00:41:10 like 00:41:38 ((lambda (function) (compile nil (sublis '((+ . -)) function))) '(lambda (a b) (+ a b))) 00:41:45 aeron: what exactly do you want to do? You can wrap the lambda in another lambda, if that somehow helps you: (defun foobar (func) (lambda (a b) (+ 3 (funcall func a b)))) 00:42:12 (partial-app (lambda (x y) (+ (* x 2) (* y 3)) (y 6)) ; the last list being "replace y with the value 6 literally in the code" 00:43:00 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:43:00 aeron: that'll need to be done through a macro, or you need te supply the code in a list and do what stassats said 00:43:12 write your own evaluator 00:43:12 madnificent: any good reference on macros? 00:43:42 ^ somebody else answer that, I don't know of a macro-only reference (PCL was fine) 00:43:54 minion: tell aeron about pcl 00:43:56 aeron: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 00:44:04 gotcha, thank you 00:44:46 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:45:26 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 00:47:25 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 00:48:29 aeron: you want partial application only on a limited subset, having only lambdas and function calls? 00:49:11 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483AE4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:52:34 -!- Shamiq [n=Adium@wireless-165-124-97-214.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has left #lisp 00:53:27 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:57:29 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:14 if I am use eval with input from within my program and it causes an error is there a nice way to just fall back to where it was 01:00:55 i thinking more syntactical errors 01:01:20 Guthur: ignoer-errors 01:01:20 clhs handler-bind 01:01:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_handle.htm 01:01:25 p4r0l3 [n=par0le@unaffiliated/par0le] has joined #lisp 01:05:48 *Xach* misread as chandler-bind 01:06:57 hmm, C handler then? 01:09:17 cheers, sorry for the delay i was reading and testing them 01:09:53 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:10:16 cryptopsy [n=cryptops@unaffiliated/cryptopsy] has joined #lisp 01:10:21 ignore-errors is convenient but i think i will add a bit more finesse with handler-bind 01:10:23 http://omploader.org/vMm5iYg <--- error while fetching lisp for stumpwm, what does it mean? 01:11:31 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 01:12:35 cryptopsy: you may have better luck with a less obsolete package 01:13:02 Guthur: ignore-errors is not always a great choice 01:13:54 and also, handler-case, but it unwinds 01:14:02 adlai ya quick but exceedingly unclean 01:14:14 arbscht: why are you getting CMUCL for stumpwm? 01:14:27 stump only runs on clisp or SBCL 01:14:32 Adlai: to the best of my knowledge, I'm not :) 01:14:36 eh, sorry, not arbscht -- cryptopsy 01:14:48 Adlai: not true, i run it on CCL 01:15:09 stassats: it works? When I tried it didn't work well, and it's not listed in the documentation as supported 01:15:22 WFM 01:15:31 I'll try again at some point, then 01:18:07 quodlibetor [n=user@ool-4570c6ff.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:03 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:21:57 coliv [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:05 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:26:26 -!- p4r0l3 [n=par0le@unaffiliated/par0le] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:26:34 musty [n=musty@unaffiliated/musty] has joined #lisp 01:26:34 cvandusen [n=irchon@99-166-72-116.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:41 -!- musty [n=musty@unaffiliated/musty] has left #lisp 01:26:42 when i set the error handler it still seems to go the debugger, do i need to use something to stop that behaviour 01:27:06 clhs invoke-restart 01:27:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_invo_1.htm 01:27:37 or you can use handler-case 01:27:44 also the CLHS is slightly wrong 01:27:57 though i may be an implementation detail 01:28:00 i/it 01:28:19 Guthur: the clhs is wrong about lots of things... 01:28:20 clhs prog2 01:28:56 i had to have a an argument available with passes lambdas 01:28:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_prog1c.htm 01:29:13 in english? 01:29:24 passes/passed 01:29:27 Adlai: the pkg manager is pulling it in 01:29:41 oh, you can use abort without invoke-restart directly 01:29:42 Adlai: i'm going to try again after clisp is deployed 01:30:29 oh wait the CLHS doesn't show the parameter list for the error handling lambdas 01:30:51 i suppose its to keep one on ones toes 01:31:05 i'm trying to run an old library and sbcl dropped to debugger while compiling, saying load-shared-object should be used instead of load-foreign, can i find a lib that has these old definitions or should i change the code? 01:32:07 composite: try using cffi 01:33:36 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:33:46 -!- cvandusen [n=irchon@99-166-72-116.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:34:37 cvandusen [n=irchon@99-166-72-116.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:04 -!- cvandusen [n=irchon@99-166-72-116.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:39:52 -!- salva [n=salva@91.117.11.105] has left #lisp 01:40:11 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-82-159.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:42:42 -!- mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6DC27.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:45:14 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-112.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:45:58 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:46:52 -!- gaze [n=gaze@169-231-110-208.wireless.ucsb.edu] has quit [] 01:47:54 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@204.52.135.62] has quit ["leaving"] 01:48:46 -!- composite [n=composit@78.180.87.133] has left #lisp 01:49:29 -!- demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-201-117.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:49:55 -!- seangrove [n=user@adsl-71-135-108-207.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:51:49 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 01:55:02 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@74.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 01:55:26 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp178.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:55:37 mdj [n=user@apnnew9.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:14 -!- aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:58:22 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-dlowzjqnpocaufif] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:58:26 error handling in lisp is pretty neat, cheers for the pointers 02:00:12 most things are :-) 02:02:35 nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 02:02:43 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 02:03:29 gday #lisp 02:05:00 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-167-19.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:30 today Unity3D became free; you graphics guys have no excuse :-) 02:07:32 fusss: err...isn't that a free *trial*? 02:07:50 free even for commercial use 02:08:05 http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=25840 02:08:28 ya seems to be, its the limited version but still plenty of features 02:08:34 I stand corrected. Wow. Awesome. 02:08:40 http://unity3d.com/unity/licenses 02:08:50 the unity one is the free one i think 02:09:02 yep 02:09:17 deliver binaries for win32, mac, web with plugin, iphone and wii 02:09:20 weeee! 02:09:23 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@1.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:09:40 all with hardware accelerate 3d goodness 02:09:51 fusss do you not need the iphone and nintendo version for those platforms 02:10:29 you prolly do need the libs, but you can write iphone apps on win32 with unity :-) 02:11:04 you don't have support for their input features 02:11:15 scroll to the bottom of that page i posted 02:11:38 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:14:21 oh 02:16:25 the no rendering to texture can be a bit of lose to 02:16:33 alot of nice effects need that 02:16:58 no deferred rendering without it, thought thats a special case rendering technique 02:17:03 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBAFE6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:17:05 s/thought/though 02:17:14 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:17:15 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Client Quit] 02:17:31 redblue [i=star@ppp033.109-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:18:17 still a nice engine 02:18:54 its complete too with physics and networking 02:18:59 anyway bedtime 02:19:02 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-140-191-199.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 02:21:23 fax [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 02:21:47 pfeyz [n=user@146.95.65.217] has joined #lisp 02:22:21 pfeyz` [n=user@146.95.65.217] has joined #lisp 02:24:03 -!- pfeyz [n=user@146.95.65.217] has quit [Client Quit] 02:24:19 -!- pfeyz` [n=user@146.95.65.217] has quit [Client Quit] 02:24:56 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@38.112.6.110] has joined #lisp 02:24:56 pfeyz [n=user@146.95.65.217] has joined #lisp 02:30:47 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has 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3.5.3/20090824101458]"] 05:19:55 jsoft [i=josh@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 05:19:58 ans [n=ans@user82.c3.sevnica.kabelnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:06 -!- jsoft [i=josh@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:20:39 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 05:22:35 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:25:14 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-112.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:28:19 majhool [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 05:28:19 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@office.osgdc.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:30:47 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-112.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:30:49 -!- majhool [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Client Quit] 05:31:52 majhool [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 05:34:06 -!- Nshag [i=user@193.248.205.116] has quit ["Quitte"] 05:36:59 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 05:37:54 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:37:57 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 05:40:17 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:41:08 Axius [n=ojof@92.82.91.240] has joined #lisp 05:46:31 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 05:55:56 vng [n=vng@123.20.85.74] has joined #lisp 05:56:41 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-167-19.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:57:17 hello 05:57:18 vng, memo from beach: By email I sent you an example of how to use presentations in CLIM. 05:57:19 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 05:57:44 I got it 06:04:41 DylanJ [n=QQ@unaffiliated/dylanj] has joined #lisp 06:05:38 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 06:07:16 fjji [n=ojof@92.82.87.38] has joined #lisp 06:07:19 -!- fjji [n=ojof@92.82.87.38] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:08:26 hi, what "#+" means ? 06:09:12 clhs #+ 06:09:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 06:10:06 stassats: thanks 06:13:26 pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.58.146] has joined #lisp 06:18:24 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-70-226-85-68.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:18:27 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.54.174] has joined #lisp 06:19:03 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@adsl-76-235-171-232.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:45 -!- quodlibetor [n=user@ool-4570c6ff.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:19:57 quodlibetor [n=user@ool-4570c6ff.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:20:28 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-169-216.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:20:43 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-131-10.netcologne.de] has quit [Operation timed out] 06:24:45 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.82.91.240] has quit [Success] 06:27:59 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@91.194.72.7] has left #lisp 06:28:05 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.54.174] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:34:48 serichsen [n=svante@hmbg-4d06ddfd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:52 good morning 06:39:16 Axius [n=ojof@92.82.87.38] has joined #lisp 06:40:12 hjpark [n=user@166.104.224.114] has joined #lisp 06:42:04 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.82.87.38] has quit [Client Quit] 06:42:14 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.54.174] has joined #lisp 06:43:42 -!- vng [n=vng@123.20.85.74] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:44:56 Good morning! 06:45:03 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:47:21 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 06:50:59 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:59:16 -!- hjpark [n=user@166.104.224.114] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:59:25 -!- quodlibetor [n=user@ool-4570c6ff.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:07:28 ``Erik [i=Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:16 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.58.146] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:10:40 -!- slackjaw [n=jolyonwh@cb8faac9.atp.nicta.com.au] has quit ["Quitting!"] 07:14:32 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:19:52 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 07:21:34 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229084224.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:22:30 Fare [n=Fare@24.218.127.11] has joined #lisp 07:27:03 ....morning 07:27:12 hello p_l 07:29:09 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:29:40 good morning 07:30:16 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 07:33:03 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 07:33:22 hello Adlai 07:33:57 maus [n=maus@115.74.150.21] has joined #lisp 07:34:06 vng [n=vng@115.74.150.21] has joined #lisp 07:34:19 hello maus, hello vng 07:34:30 hello beach 07:34:37 hello beach 07:34:38 maus, memo from beach: By email I sent you an example of how to use presentations in CLIM. 07:34:49 Did you manage to run the example that I sent you? 07:35:29 we have just met and work together 07:35:40 Ah, OK. Let me know how it turns out. 07:35:51 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.254.207] has joined #lisp 07:36:22 of course 07:36:33 hey, it's raining! \o/ 07:36:49 Adlai: Where? 07:36:59 In Tel Aviv! 07:37:27 If we have some difficulties, we will ask 07:37:38 maus: Good! 07:38:06 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 07:38:09 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 07:38:12 maus: I think you should consider turning each slot into a presentation that can be clickable. 07:39:02 beach: okie. 07:40:18 [and perhaps I should turn the example I sent you into something that could go in the McCLIM documentation] 07:40:54 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 07:42:32 yeah, in McCLIM documentation there is a few example, and it's hard to understand for newbie 07:43:22 vng: Yes, the CLIM spec is not meant to be a user manual. The McCLIM manual has a few examples in it, but it wouldn't hurt to have some more. 07:44:05 Perhaps I should tell everyone that vng and maus are working on the GUI part of a Sudoku game. 07:44:22 ... In order to learn CL and CLIM. 07:45:03 :) 07:45:28 vng, maus: That actually sounds like a neat project... all the CLIM apps that I can think of are rather sophisticated, so this should lower the barrier of entry. 07:45:44 lispworks clim docs are quite nice when it comes to starting with CLIM, i think (at least I understood the most out of it) 07:46:35 p_l: As I recall, both Lispworks and Franz manuals start off OK, but then pretty much turn into the spec after a few chapters. 07:47:30 Adlai: Yeah, if it turns out OK, we could stick it in the McCLIM distribution. 07:47:44 beach: sure, but I found that it laid enough groundwork for me to partially understand the latter chapters 07:48:01 vng, maus: What got you interested in CL and CLIM? 07:48:41 also, CLIM is very different from most libs out there so no wonder tutorials turn into specs... 07:49:36 p_l: Yes, especially since CLIM is meant to be extended and adapted by the application programmer. 07:50:16 Adlai: It's challenging I think 07:50:17 :) 07:50:29 beach: CLIM extendability is something that promises a lot to me, for my CLIM-on-.NET project :) 07:50:37 Jafet [n=Jafet@194.245.48.60.kmr02-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 07:50:52 ejs1 [n=eugen@63.251.108.100] has joined #lisp 07:50:54 I'm curious about how people find out about CL, and get interested in it enough to tackle learning CLIM... 07:51:19 p_l: How are you planning to use CLIM extendability for that? 07:51:21 Adlai: in my case it was thirst for a GUI library. Seriously 07:52:06 p_l: I'm in the (fortunate?) position of not needing to do any GUI work yet, but I am getting curious about CLIM from what I hear in here. 07:52:17 beach: I'm planning to write most of the code on .NET side, including the main event loop, and have my classes implement .NET interfaces that would correspond to various protocols on Lisp side 07:52:23 Adlai: In my case, it was that I really wanted a good pure-CL GUI library for Gsharp. So I started implementing McCLIM from what Mike McDonald and gilberth had already done. 07:52:47 beach: I see, you're one of the developers? 07:52:57 Adlai: You could say that :) 07:53:14 beach: so if an application didn't depend on behaviour outside the spec, I'd be able to just run it with my backend :) 07:53:15 Adlai: My copyright is in pretty much all of the source files :) 07:54:33 beach: I guess you can tell that I'm pretty climgnorant... 07:54:48 Adlai: It's OK, don't worry about it. 07:55:29 Adlai: I got a lot of help though, from students first, then from gilberth, moore33, Athas, hefner, etc. 07:56:40 Adlai: The project that was the most fun though was Climacs. 07:56:45 beach: well, if I get enough time to work on my CLIM backend, expect patches from me as well ;-) 07:56:54 p_l: That would be great! 07:57:29 *p_l* plans on adding some extra libraries to McCLIM if his initial project goes through 07:57:30 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp033.109-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:57:40 Adlai: When I realized we had all the components to write Emacs, I couldn't resist. Everyone told me that it would take decades, but we had the core up and running within weeks. 07:57:53 faure [n=moe@wsip-72-215-98-173.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:58 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:58:27 isn't the "decades" part the bit about porting all the useful emacs/elisp libraries? 07:58:28 beach: I'm excited to try Climacs out, although I'm putting it off until I actually have time to study it in detail. 07:58:50 Krystof: unless you port emacs lisp as well :D 07:58:54 Krystof: Partly, yes. People were thinking of things like Gnus. 07:58:59 Krystof: couldn't you just implement ELOAD that would preprocess into CL? 07:59:18 beach: elisp->cl compiler and multithreading! :P 07:59:27 or maybe it could read files into the ELISP package... 07:59:42 *Adlai* pokes at elisp and it's single-namespace 1960sness 07:59:47 That would require the protocols to be similar, but I wanted something better than Emacs, so they aren't. 08:01:31 *beach* needs to get organized and do his Vietnamese homework before the class at 17:00 this afternoon. 08:01:59 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-20-3.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 08:02:06 And I should also write an example of how to implement Sudoku strategies. 08:03:27 *Adlai* hopes vng and maus have seen http://norvig.com/sudoku.html 08:04:03 *Jafet* dances around 08:04:05 yes, it's in Python, but it's still a quick but clean implementation 08:05:32 demmel [n=Adium@188.98.203.30] has joined #lisp 08:05:33 Adlai: It is usually easy to solve Sudokus. What is hard is to create an initial game that can be solved without backtracking by only applying some strategies that in every iteration gives a new symbol. 08:07:53 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:08:15 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:08:19 sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 08:08:48 beach: couldn't you work backwards from a filled grid, each time removing one number? 08:09:12 (and of course checking that it's an "deducible" number) 08:09:26 Adlai: That's what we are planning to do. 08:09:53 Adlai: But you also need to take into account different levels of difficulty. 08:09:55 beach: are they students of yours? 08:10:03 Adlai: Yes. 08:10:13 Adlai: In Ho Chi Minh city. 08:10:33 There are various levels of "deducibility", which more or less determines how "hard" it is for a casual human to solve 08:11:34 Jafet: I was thinking of having the level of difficulty defined by the strategies that need to be applied, and to make sure to generate boards that require as many applications as possible of the most difficult strategy in the set. 08:11:45 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:12:09 -!- demmel [n=Adium@188.98.203.30] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:12:27 I guess you could store the known strategies along with a difficulty index, and pick various combinations of strategies for each step depending on the target difficulty 08:12:28 There is an interesting paper that I can't access about generating uniquely-solvable boards in polynomial time, but I don't know whether it is relevant. 08:12:50 Adlai: Yeah, something like that. 08:13:03 Sudoku is O(1) 08:13:54 I remember there were a few sites which had listings of all known strategies... I was very interested in these puzzles a few years ago. 08:14:34 Fufie [n=poff@80.203.160.34] has joined #lisp 08:16:43 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 08:17:11 OK, what operations do we have that are specific to bitvectors? 08:18:02 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-39-119.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:18:21 Ah, here we go. bit-and, bit-ior, etc. 08:18:43 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:18:51 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@74.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:19:24 beach: wasn't sudoku made popular when someone found an algorithm to produce them? 08:19:29 No operation to count the number of 1s in a bitvector? 08:19:36 clhs count 08:19:36 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_countc.htm 08:19:36 :D 08:19:52 Adlai: Right. 08:20:01 beach: also, if you want "packed 08:20:19 "packed" bit vectors, look at logand & co 08:20:22 ASau [n=user@host176-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 08:21:47 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:21:51 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:24:00 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:25:37 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Success] 08:30:04 *Adlai* sigs 08:30:09 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:30:23 It's so great that CL doesn't have a version 1.9 that suddenly breaks some library you were using. 08:32:09 Adlai: Ruby? :D 08:32:18 *Adlai* cries 08:32:34 (and what library? I had some problems with Ferret but there's unofficial patch) 08:32:45 It's not THAT bad, though. I can write (function arg1, arg2, arg3) which is almost Lisp (although no macros...) 08:33:25 p_l: oh, the 'statistics' gem. I'm surprised it's survived as long as it has without being updated -- there's only one entry on the changelog, from 2001. 08:33:32 Adlai: at least it has equivalent of eval-when :) 08:33:52 Adlai: let me guess, it uses some native libs? 08:33:57 and guess what broke it? Object.type got renamed to Object.class 08:34:03 oh, that :D 08:34:16 Adlai: then why not monkey patch it? :D 08:34:36 hmm I could do that... but.. uch. 08:35:03 I guess crappy languages demand crappy solutions. 08:35:37 it's pretty sad though, the gem is tiny. I might as well just grab the relevant part and inline it... 08:35:38 `serichsen [n=svante@hmbg-4d06ddfd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:38:32 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:38:54 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229084224.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 08:41:21 The only reason why that doesn't happen with CL is because it's dead. 08:42:18 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:42:19 *Adlai* wishes they'd hurry up and kill off Ruby, too. >_< 08:45:47 lol 08:46:12 -!- serichsen [n=svante@hmbg-4d06ddfd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:49:59 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@63.251.108.100] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:50:34 Fortunately it happens with many libraries :) 08:51:05 vng, maus: I just sent an example of implementing a strategy to the mailing list. But I take it, the people in charge of strategies don't come here, right? 08:51:50 HET2 [n=diman@80.3.31.126] has joined #lisp 08:52:47 beach: I'm checking it, 08:53:39 beach: yeah, they're not here, just maus and me. 08:54:33 -!- nipra [n=nipra@117.195.100.207] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:56:34 demmel [n=Adium@138.246.18.153] has joined #lisp 08:56:56 trebor_dki [n=user@130.83.156.186] has joined #lisp 08:57:01 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 08:59:35 -!- demmel [n=Adium@138.246.18.153] has quit [Client Quit] 09:02:14 [Jackal] [n=Jackal@118.95.43.144] has joined #lisp 09:03:25 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:03:55 What's the progress on CLtL3? cltl3-devel is very quiet. 09:04:58 and also, is there a proper way to read cll without the spam? 09:05:04 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:05:14 -!- faure [n=moe@wsip-72-215-98-173.lv.lv.cox.net] has left #lisp 09:05:48 Sure get a newsserver 09:05:54 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:05:55 your university is likely to have one 09:06:41 And regarding cltl3, what do you expect? If you want change, tackle some problem where you want to see change, and try to improve the situation. 09:07:10 No, I'm not complaining, I'm just wondering if I might've missed some other resource where discussion takes place. 09:07:21 (alas, there is no news server at chalmers anymore. :/) 09:07:42 Well there are cheap providers 09:08:08 perhaps your isp maintains one, too 09:09:12 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:09:31 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:11:01 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 09:11:40 http://www.eternal-september.org/ free and spam free 09:12:11 Neat. Thanks! Any recommendations for news cliens? (gtk or non-Emacs console) 09:12:24 none .. they all suck 09:12:26 haa 09:12:43 (but really; they do .. i've given up .. i just wade through the GG spam) 09:12:56 you could join the emacs revolution 09:13:01 you'd only be about 3 decades late 09:13:03 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:13:22 MORE EMACS REVOLUTION! 09:13:24 minion: chant 09:13:27 there is an emacs? .. i only know slime ... :) 09:13:28 MORE EMACS REVOLUTION 09:14:00 "Cannot save core with multiple threads running." how can I save an sbcl core for a web app? i want to be able to load it from the shell via a script so i don't have to mess with emacs for it. 09:14:22 the app is completed and further upgrades will have to be done on a new version 09:14:23 Krystof, I can still wait another decade or so. :-) 09:14:28 compile --> dump .. not compile -> start -> dump 09:14:49 fusss: Make the core without any but one thread running, and make your main-entry function start threads as necessary 09:15:10 oh 09:15:21 tic: I think thunderbird understands nntp 09:16:21 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-254-164.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 09:17:16 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-100-100.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:19:04 -!- Athas` is now known as Athas 09:20:41 pan's a nice gui news client 09:21:48 -!- `serichsen is now known as serichsen 09:23:14 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 09:24:06 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:26:06 majhool, I can't get it to work with eternal-september. I only get the default groups. Do you know how to force login? 09:27:20 hm 09:27:52 ah, there. had to remove the old list first. 09:28:16 fusss: save core before you spawn threads 09:28:17 sweet. 09:28:21 or fork and save core 09:28:37 or arrange for threads to die and save 09:28:40 got it? 09:28:46 Fare: yeah, i saved core now but there are some errors 09:29:18 saving core w/ threads is not usually safe 09:29:19 -!- Spaghettini [n=Paprika@vaxjo2.179.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:29:21 see my recent post and pclsring 09:33:13 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:34:01 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:36:19 -!- Fare [n=Fare@24.218.127.11] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:37:06 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 09:39:56 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6DF45.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:10 majhool, yeah. 09:42:38 jsoft [i=josh@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 09:45:45 [Jackal_] [n=Jackal@118.95.40.211] has joined #lisp 09:47:33 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:52:22 -!- serichsen [n=svante@hmbg-4d06ddfd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["experiment"] 09:53:13 -!- jsoft [i=josh@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:53:32 jsoft [i=josh@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 09:53:42 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 09:53:44 serichsen [n=user@77.6.221.253] has joined #lisp 09:57:50 test 09:58:50 mrSpec [n=Spec@chello089074179078.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 09:59:00 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:59:02 heh 09:59:26 my first non-screen based non-detachtty lisp app :-) 09:59:39 s/app/service/ 10:00:30 i recently saw a tutorial by frank buss where he uses clisp to make win32 system calls without a line of foreign code; all clisp builtin extensions 10:01:57 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 10:02:02 TODO: some way to do restart/stop with rc-scripts 10:02:33 perhaps with cat, *.pid and kill -s9 10:04:47 -!- [Jackal] [n=Jackal@118.95.43.144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:08:02 -!- HET2 [n=diman@80.3.31.126] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:09:45 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 10:12:46 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 10:13:36 hefner_ [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-83-80.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 10:13:40 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:15:55 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-83-80.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:18:19 pookey [n=pookey@symfony/developer/pookey] has joined #lisp 10:20:06 hi all - I'm workign though the Wizard book, and it's talking abotu a lisp shell etc. I'd quitelike to have a play around whilst doing this, but I know nothing about lisp. Does anyone know the debian package and the binary bane to get to the shell? 10:20:09 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:21:53 -!- jsoft [i=josh@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:22:13 a lisp shell? clisp? 10:22:42 SICP it talking about an interactive Lisp shell 10:22:59 the book seems focused more on the scheme dialect, but I'm not sure I understand what that actaully means ;) 10:23:00 you will probably need an Scheme implementation 10:23:34 pookey: Scheme and Common Lisp are both Lisp dialects; this channel is for Common Lisp, scheme has #scheme 10:23:39 what platform are you on? Linux? 10:23:47 fusss: yeah, ubuntu linux 10:23:54 there's scsh 10:24:09 i've installed scsh, but... there's no binary 'scsh' in path 10:24:10 pookey: would you prefer GUI or non-GUI? 10:24:16 attila_lendvai: I don't think he means shell in that sense. Just a Scheme REPL to get started with SICP. 10:24:30 oh, no I haven't 10:24:41 fusss: CLI preferably, I could handly gui if I had to 10:25:10 there are tons, in you install scsh, typ "scheme48" or "s48" in the shell 10:25:14 ol23 [n=user@62.96.71.161] has joined #lisp 10:25:38 oh, I didn't instll scsh, I installed scsh-common-0.6, there's a separate scsh package which won't install, but that's not an issue for in here 10:25:42 pookey: you probably have Guile installed as well. type "guile" and see if it's there. 10:25:42 thanks guys 10:26:00 there is even a flash web based scheme for SICP http://sisc-scheme.org/sisc-online.php 10:26:47 great, guile installed and working 10:27:19 typically you use guile to play with scheme, but for serious development, you will probably end up using emacs 10:27:37 oh, I doubt very much I'll be doing serious develpment ;) 10:28:21 P.S. save your source code and back it up remotely. one day you will wish to read your newbie. i do :-( 10:28:26 -!- hefner_ is now known as hefner 10:28:49 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 10:28:56 fusss: I'm not new to programming, just list - working though the SICP just to get a better understanding of the lower concepts 10:30:51 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:31:11 wanted to read the Dragon book, but it's so expensive... migth try to expense it ;) 10:32:34 you can get it used 10:32:36 *hefner* was lucky enough to find a copy of the dragon book lying abandoned in his office from a previous resident 10:33:03 i bought mine while backpacking in india for 30 rupees 10:33:13 is it a good follow on from SICP ? or do they try to achive the same goals? 10:33:32 pookey: unrelated 10:33:44 dragon book is a unix and C book 10:34:23 SICP obviates the need for dragon book by showing you a better representation for programs as data, than just raw strings and C syntax 10:34:24 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Compilers-Principles-Techniques-Alfred-Aho/dp/0321491696/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256812408&sr=8-2 is that' one right? I thoguht it was more expensive than that 10:34:33 fusss: um, what? No. 10:34:34 if you want a compiler book get Engineering A Compiler 10:34:34 *Xach* scratches head 10:35:08 I am serious; sicp is better for playing with language implementation than the dragon book 10:35:38 I liked the other ullman book for automate and language theory 10:35:44 fusss: your opinion is that the dragon book is redundent then? 10:36:18 it's not, it's a classic, but they're not THAT related; and you can augment SICP with more accessible/cheapter texts to get the same information 10:36:24 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Success] 10:36:56 there is no reason a numeric calculator should be done with lex; it's used as pedagogy to teach lex, but lex is useless if you have better tools than lex :-D ditto with yacc. 10:37:14 if you like; I was objecting to the "unix and C" characterization of the dragon book 10:37:15 *nunb* hopes cheapter is a portmanteau word 10:38:04 Xof: unix, C, ratfor, bell labs, pike .. the dragon book is a jersey text through and through 10:38:34 -!- vng [n=vng@115.74.150.21] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:38:35 -!- maus [n=maus@115.74.150.21] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:38:51 i am not sure about the new edition, but the Torzcon book is more accessible for compiler hacking, not to mention spends more time on backend, introduces several modern IRs, etc. 10:39:56 I've only found myself here becasue I was looking for a 'nice' way to parse DNS zone files 10:39:58 my copy has an algorithm on code generation for an accumulator machine :-) for your z-80 hacking pleasure 10:41:19 pookey: you will need a nice tutorial on regular expressions 10:41:31 I know regex's pretty well 10:44:21 Axius [n=ojof@92.85.217.40] has joined #lisp 10:46:49 tcr: is there any specific reason i don't see because of which slime is not fully using set-keymap-parent, but rather does things like (loop for (key command) in slime-editing-keys do (define-key slime-repl-mode-map key command))? 10:48:16 this makes changing the key config rather problematic... i'm using a kinesis, and i had M-C-. and friends bound to sexp copy/paste/etc stuff and now i need to reset the key in several keymaps 10:49:54 IOW, could the defvar slime-editing-keys and slime-keys be turned into keymaps and using set-keymap-parent? 10:51:56 ruediger [n=ruediger@93.82.4.56] has joined #lisp 10:53:44 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:57:53 anybody care to proofread my next blog entry? http://www.ltn.lv/~jonis/blog/3-bb-cl/brians-brain-on-cl-take-2.html 10:59:12 *Adlai* clicks 10:59:24 no promise that I'll have any useful comment, though 11:00:04 jdz: 3rd paragraph, s/pigments/figments/ ? 11:00:11 (or is taht a pun?) 11:03:36 I'd recommend taking out the "notice the numbers on Y axis, here and in all other graphs" and instead putting the graphs on the same scale in the first place. 11:03:55 hey, that's the kind of thing I should be saying 11:03:57 good man 11:04:20 if the dynamic range is too wide, consider a logarithmic scale 11:04:52 I may be biased by german grammer, but sentences beginning with "but" are not complete sentences---so: s/But 2 bits/However, 2 bits/ 11:05:02 ugh. s/grammer/grammar/ 11:05:58 "from _a_ programmer's point of view" 11:06:18 "support from _the_ programming language" 11:07:21 attila_lendvai: I do not know 11:07:32 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-169-216.netcologne.de] has quit [Success] 11:08:16 "On the next evolution step, the old array can be reused, because at each evolution step, all cell values are rewritten." (commata) 11:08:25 tcr: meanwhile i started to add a slime-editing-map that is kinda like slime-parent-map but for editing contexts. i'll send a diff to you once i have it tested and used for a while 11:08:46 attila_lendvai: You should ask if there's a point in the way it's currently done 11:10:05 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=rot13@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:10:48 tcr: sorry, but that's too much effort... this patch seems to be a cleanup for me already, and solves my headaches. if not considered so by heller, then it'll be another divergence point which i'm not happy about, but much less effort than a thread about slime-foo-maps on slime-devel... 11:10:49 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-140-191-199.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:11:07 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:13:18 I don't understand this, it could use some punctuation, I guess: "(because we only change the first row and first w cells in our array are the first row):" 11:15:24 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:16:39 attila_lendvai: I long lost interest in playing maintainer. I'll not apply patches that I don't see profit for me in. 11:17:13 jdz: that's all I found on my first read 11:18:00 KatrinaTheLamia [n=rot13@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:35 MORE SELFISHNESS 11:18:50 tcr: oh. thanks for the clarification! then i guess i won't sand the patch anywhere, just record and push it into our branch... waiting for Helmut to commit *anything* i did is very much in vain... 11:19:01 (tcr: you have my utmost sympathy) 11:19:20 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 11:21:00 jdz: ok, I found it out: s/change the first row and first w cells/change the first row, and the first w cells/ 11:22:58 minion: memo for Adlai how is everything? you might need to install your own slime but most OSS lisps are installed; sbcl, ccl, lisp, and cmucl under their own names. XCL is "lisp" :-) i can make /usr/local/lib/sbcl/* group readable so you can asdf-install whatever package that aren't installed already. 11:22:59 i like lisp... i'm written in it 11:23:11 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:23:19 fusss: put a `:' after the nick 11:23:22 fusss: memofail! 11:23:41 gah 11:24:42 some weeks ago I askt if there was any dicussion on the desine choise that nil should be a subtype of avery type. If anyone wonders, I found it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bottom_type 11:25:01 "design" 11:25:22 "choice", "every" 11:25:33 Summermute [n=scott@98.204.67.114] has joined #lisp 11:26:04 fnoud 11:26:06 ok 11:26:57 fusss: I have a question relating to an exercise in SICP, where wuold be a good place to discuss it with people? 11:27:06 M-x flyspell-mode 11:27:19 pookey: I think that #scheme would be a good place 11:27:27 serichsen: thanks 11:27:28 pookey: both here and scheme should be ok 11:27:30 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:29:37 I was asking earlier in #scheme, but it's a good q for #lisp too (no, I'm not a "skeptic"). Skipping symbolic math, tech development and software development (Lisp or otherwise), what are the most noteworthy publically accessible software systems written in Lisp (downloadable, well documented on the Web, etc.) ??? 11:30:09 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:23 Aaron 11:30:26 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit [Operation timed out] 11:30:28 a Painter AI 11:30:49 http://www.aaai.org/AITopics/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/AITopics/Art 11:31:03 Xach: It seems like you failed on trying to update the website? 11:31:23 a magnum opus of a great mind, imo 11:32:29 _YKY_ [i=YKY@119.237.164.207] has joined #lisp 11:32:31 Summermute: you mean something like "standalone desktop applications"? 11:33:09 Summermute: http://www.kurzweilcyberart.com/aaron/history.html download 11:33:12 <_YKY_> Is there a function to insert an element into a sorted list? 11:33:17 Summermute: What is the reason for skipping symbolic math, tech development and software development? 11:33:30 <_YKY_> Other than merge? 11:33:50 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:33:59 _YKY_: what is wrong with merge? 11:34:26 <_YKY_> It may be slow? I'm not sure 11:34:45 _YKY_: Use merge. 11:35:07 _YKY_: what brings you to that suspicion? 11:35:08 all magic in merge is in your :test function 11:36:25 <_YKY_> I thought there's a simpler function to insert one element... 11:36:39 merge does not take a :test function argument 11:37:14 the predicate i meant 11:37:45 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-100-98.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 11:38:32 I wonder what a good name would be for insert-into-sorted-sequence 11:39:08 (compiler-macro-function merge) 11:39:24 -!- rey_ [n=ikke@134.184.49.19] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 11:41:48 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.85.217.40] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:42:46 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:48 I think that the little indirection of listing a single element should be possible to get sorted out by a "sufficiently smart compiler (tm)" 11:45:32 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:49:34 possible, of course 11:49:48 actually happening, only if someone does the work 11:50:35 (though whether doing that work is worth it is a function of how often inserting one element into a sorted list happens, and how much slower the generic implementation than a specialized one is for that case) 11:52:29 -!- vandemar [i=bella@2001:470:1f10:56b:0:0:0:4] has quit ["leaving"] 11:53:28 mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6DF45.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:21 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 11:58:48 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 12:00:32 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@188-23-94-24.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:01:56 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:43 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:02:55 ok, thanks for your comments guys. i'll see what i can do with the graphs... 12:04:43 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:26 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-yfdvlppokalwxjvt] has left #lisp 12:08:43 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@93.82.4.56] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:13:23 pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.58.146] has joined #lisp 12:13:48 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:58 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [] 12:16:28 tombom [n=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 12:17:10 My inquiry is sort of "pro Lisp," asking the question, "Why isn't, for example, the reference Bittorrent client written in Lisp rather than Python?" (Just some random example) 12:18:12 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:13 because programming and in particular open source programming is an activity dominated by social interactions 12:18:41 Summermute: are the masses always right? 12:18:58 The question originally hit me yesterday learning that Scheme had no #define or #+ style conditional compilation and how incredibly brain dead that was from a purely practical system building point of view (whatever the theoretical merits). 12:19:01 authentic [n=authenti@85.127.39.223] has joined #lisp 12:19:50 Nah, this isn't a "masses are asses" issue. The masses actually are the users and they don't care what their software is written in. 12:19:59 Summermute: also: reference implementation should look familiar to most programmers, lisp syntax looks less familiar than python syntax 12:20:07 Summermute: #+ is bloat. You can do everything with lambdas. 12:20:41 When I got into Lisp 20 years ago, RAM was precious, so having a decent GC working set was a challenge. But that's no longer an issue. 12:21:21 lisp doesn't have as many convenient tools and libraries as, say, python, or as much cross-platform support 12:21:46 Adlai: ;-) i read one retarded comment on the Web last night saying that in lieu of conditional compilation programs could just call thousands of empty stub functions instead. Give me a break!!!! 12:21:52 the bittorrent thing is pretty simple 12:22:01 bram cohen likes python, and he invented bittorrent 12:22:14 Maybe it's idiots like that involved in the Lisp community that keep it at 2nd class status :-) 12:22:22 Summermute: you can also do graphics with lambdas! We have no need for pixels. 12:22:22 If I invented it, you can be sure it would be in Lisp! 12:22:47 Xach: Well, that covers that example, still ..... 12:23:25 tombom: But isn't that a chicken and egg problem? 12:23:30 Summermute: actually, it covers most examples -- there are just far more people who prefer Python, or Perl, or C++, and will write their open-source / sample apps using those languages. 12:23:31 (you will note that my answer adresses all of the following discussion) 12:23:43 Certainly CL and Scheme have been around alot longer than say Python or Ruby 12:23:43 Summermute: yeah obviously 12:24:26 Xof: I'm not sure that is exactly the reason... while CL can enable a "lone wolf" development, I think it can also be used in teams. 12:25:04 Adlai: IF you can find other lisp programmers 12:25:10 Having spent lots of quality time with C, C++, Oracle, Java and even Python, there's a heck of alot to say for Lisp and Scheme as very, very nice languages!!!! 12:25:25 madnificent: *** There are 306 users (0 ops) on the current channel 12:26:17 whilst Xof's comment is the reason for many (or all) of the things said here, in order to solve the issue, the underlying reasons still need to be found 12:26:25 Adlai: of course it can, but the network effects of popularity lead to metastable equilibria 12:27:15 Putting aside Python's and Lisp's different brands of goofiness, defun/let/multiple-values/structs/objects/regex's (in any real lisp)/comprehensions (better with loop macro by a mile) 12:27:17 Adlai: so that's 306 lispers out of 500000 programmers (guess) 12:27:22 the other thing to say is that languages no longer solve problems 12:27:33 The languages are comparable with Lisp looking pretty good by comparison 12:27:57 Xof: don't they? 12:28:16 no 12:28:38 Xof: are you making the "languages are now just glue" argument? 12:28:58 Xof: you can easily make a problem overly complex if you can't create the needed abstractions. You can easily create code-duplication if you can't create a correct model. You can easily miss your project due to the complexity of it... then how does the language not help you to solve problems anymore? 12:29:17 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 12:29:49 not really. I'm making the argument that even if there are differences between language semantics, those are actually only rarely the major cause of any differences in needed effort for the problems being solved today 12:30:06 java , single inheritance, total mess 12:30:10 you have code-duplication 12:30:16 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:51 you fix one part of the code, but miss the duplicated code... there you're missing a bug. A hard to trace one, even, as you've noted it to be squashed 12:31:18 *attila_lendvai* agrees with Xof, but goes on working on a web framework in Lisp instead of applying a java job... :) 12:31:26 So, platform, skill set, libraries, vendor support, IDE support (LOTS of people can't live outside Visual Studio), book availability and all that kind of stuff trumps language features? That kind of thing? 12:31:41 Summermute: that could be true 12:31:42 Reav_1 [n=Reav_1@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 12:32:46 Ok, so what is it is about *us* Lispy heads that don't have SBCL and CCL and CLISP all running under Eclipse and Visual Studio???????? 12:32:54 Maybe that's the better question? 12:33:24 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:33:39 *attila_lendvai* prefers programmability/flexibility in key bindings to any graphics goodie in eclipse 12:34:01 some of us are lucky enough to be largely insulated from network effects 12:34:07 or at least those network effects 12:34:42 one of the problems programming languages continue to solve is the generation of papers on programming language theory 12:34:59 i mean, a brief survey will show more than a few roll-your-own poor-to-mediocre "environments" that take oodles of cycles to maintain and compare poorly in any case to the really sophisticated tools VS and Eclipse have become (like them or not). 12:36:32 Summermute: eclipse works too... if you prefer to have a clicky environment, feel free to use it... most of us have taken the time to learn emacs and benefit from it wrt the time they need to create something 12:36:52 Xof: reading my mind. later i'm going over to #scheme and ask a snide question on what active scheme projects survive without 1) government/corp funding and 2) generating no journal articles for the past 2 years :-) tee hee hee (Feeling impish this morning) 12:36:53 Summermute: there are many people using VIm for other languages, people don't really care about that, do they? 12:37:30 Summermute: wow, you must have started with lisp at the age of -7 12:37:55 No, sure, i use emacs too. But then, i'd probably give it up to have a set of libraries at my fingertips like Python has - see my point? 12:38:22 Xof: Summermute is an ancient, it's simply an overflow 12:38:58 i'm 43 and got mucking with it up in Cambridge, MA back in the mid '80s. Couldn't throw a stone and not hit a lisper back then :-) 12:39:18 Summermute: good days, I guess 12:39:28 Well, except for the VMS + C or Fortran nerds. 12:40:00 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:40:33 Alot fewer shaved their legs (or anywhere else) back then, so we have seen a minimal level of cultural progress. 12:41:29 more like change 12:41:43 these things come and go 12:41:53 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 12:42:06 True enough, but plus ca change, plus la meme chose.... 12:42:56 Are we ever going to get some kind of magical Unicode keyboards that support all languages equally? 12:44:05 anyone have a handy example on cxml + run-dom? 12:44:17 what is run-dom? 12:44:23 oh, the RUNE-DOM 12:44:42 yes, i am not sure if i even need it 12:44:49 well, what are you trying to do? 12:46:00 i have an xml file with structured records. each record has value pairs. i want to be able to iterate over the whole file and be able to do something like (value record "foo") where "foo" is a name and get a value back 12:46:34 they're serialized clos objects whose slots are all primitive values. 12:47:24 We need an XML oriented AWK written in CL Macros - make a job like that a real one liner. 12:47:31 i have used VS quite a bit but sides the method collapsing there is nothing i really miss 12:47:41 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:44 (dom:get-elements-by-tag-name "record") successfully returns the recordset, i just can't figure out the accessors to get the elements. 12:47:45 holub [n=holub@194.158.202.123] has joined #lisp 12:47:45 sides/aside from 12:48:08 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:48:12 how about: (xpath:string-value (xpath:evaluate "//name" (cxml:parse #p"file" (stp:make-builder)))) 12:48:59 "//name" is a linear search over the data, but if that's good enough, you don't even have to learn an API, instead you can just use standard XPath queries to find stuff 12:49:03 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 12:49:20 Spaghettini [n=Paprika@vaxjo4.186.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:50 Guthur: The *merits* aren't the issue. It's like saying that Lituanian is way better than English - one is still an idiot if one wants to build a world class/world scale company that only speaks Lithuanian. 12:50:13 -!- holub [n=holub@194.158.202.123] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:50:23 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:50:36 lichtblau: i don't have xpath installed and don't know anything about xml. any pointers on the rune-dom equivalent to SLOT-VALUE? 12:50:45 The point is that it's not such a big cultural cost to bring lisp to where the people are vs. living on an ever shrining deserted island. 12:51:18 eh, IDE is not comparable to communication languages, programming languages maybe are. You could write C# and .net in emacs if you wanted i am sure, just use the command line compiler 12:51:20 people don't hang around in VS .. they're on facebook and, stuff 12:51:44 fusss: cxml's DOM doesn't have special documentation because it follows the spec. So if you know the DOM standard at least a little, just lispify the studly caps names in your head and you're done. 12:52:27 Guthur: it'd be a quite simple slime hack, perhaps, to highlight the method the point is on (in emacs color-theme or whatever) and combined with M-. and friends, it might be preferable to boilerplate method -/+ery 12:53:02 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 12:53:16 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 12:53:17 What you *can* do and what will be adopted by the greatest #s are totally different. i'll write (just say) a program 10 tens better and faster than yours, and you write a nice automatic Windoze installer and a bunch of RPM's and MY WORK WILL BE LEFT IN THE DUST. 12:53:37 nunb, you know i was thinking it might be possible, i was actually hoping someone would, say 'oh ya thats simple do such and such...' 12:54:20 heh, the last time this came up re M-. accessors I managed (a total newbie) to hack something together in slime.el :-) 12:54:24 your turn! 12:54:33 -!- Reav_1 [n=Reav_1@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 12:55:17 hello 12:55:25 lnostdal: i ran a company of geeks for years, and yes, at work they "hang around" in VS (emacs at our shop, but we were "rebels") 12:55:34 (the issue was how slime screws up your context during M-. by opening a second emacs window on the lower half of the screen, obscuring the x-ref buffer) 12:55:41 summermute program would be no different no matter what IDE you use, and if you are on the Linux platform what version of VS would you use? 12:55:59 this is in regard to .net programming 12:56:30 fusss: If you go for STP rather than DOM, the function to get the text is called STRING-VALUE. http://www.lichteblau.com/cxml-stp/doc/pages/cxml-stp__fun__string-value.html 12:56:41 The point is that an install program like and ide is *packaging* - marketing is where it's at, like it or not. 12:57:54 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-254-164.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:58:13 <_YKY_> How can I find the list position just before a list element? 12:58:48 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 12:58:48 Summermute: if you're going for mass-installs then packagers matter, especially for windows users. 12:58:50 <_YKY_> I mean I want to find its position 12:59:05 Paragent did something with an installer, but I don't know if it was for their lisp code. 12:59:19 Anywho, thanks all. Clean answer #1 for the day - no, they're are no "non-technical" programs written in CL that are in some sense publically available today (still might be some proprietary stuff buried inside of companies). Not the answer I was hope for, but I'm not surprised either. 12:59:47 hhh i don't sell software so i am free to use whatever language i feel suits my tastes and needs 12:59:56 _YKY_ : find isn't want you want? 13:00:01 Summermute: What about Inspire Data? 13:00:06 there are a couple of web-apps around for non-technical end-users around, Summermute 13:00:16 Summermute: all webapps fit that description for me. 13:00:19 <_YKY_> I want to be able to destructive alter that element 13:00:34 referring to "written in CL that are in some sense 13:00:34 publically available today" 13:00:38 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:00:49 <_YKY_> So I need to get something with car or cdr, right? 13:01:02 attila_lendvai: I would like to debug a layered-function which was defined with (def layered-function ...). How can I add a :before method to it? 13:01:10 <_YKY_> "Find" just gives me the element itself 13:01:12 Summermute: what about wigflip.com? 13:01:12 Guthur: and I hope you have no intentions of starting any interesting open source projects or even companies, because you'll code just as alone then unless something good happends to our beloved CL. 13:02:32 Summermute: there are some non-technical programs written in CL that are publically available 13:02:32 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-112.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:02:39 Summermute: You Clan answer #1 removed the condition about documentation. 13:02:40 Summermute: deferring to your wizened years of servitude and all, but the CL opensource community seems quite healthy to me. 13:02:46 *Clean 13:02:49 at least, healthier than a dead horse ;-) 13:02:53 Summermute: what about stumpwm? 13:03:00 summermute, well if i had the ability to start company producing software i would probably have to train most of the employees anyway, there is very few good programmers about, it would probably be easier to make than hire them 13:03:21 your original question specified "downloadable" and "documented" as additional requirements 13:03:36 minion: Please tell Summermute about Gsharp. 13:03:41 Summermute: direct your attention towards Gsharp: Gsharp is a graphical, interactive score editing application for standard Music notation. http://www.cliki.net/Gsharp 13:04:04 beach: yes, I was just googling for all the music synthesis/theory projects that use CL. 13:04:10 (Though I am sure there is going to be a reason to eliminate that from the list so that Clean answer #1 is still valid). 13:04:16 python is dead! .. it needs VS integration! 13:04:17 and you never got such a clean answer from us 13:04:20 kami-: (def layered-method foo :before (arg1) ...) or (def layered-function foo (arg1) (:method :before (arg1) ...) 13:04:24 <_YKY_> It seems that I need to use (setf (nothing (position element the-list) the-list) something) ... rather complicated 13:04:26 Summermute: Also, OpenMusic. 13:04:31 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:04:40 <_YKY_> Sorry... typo 13:04:47 heh heh. Did Ron Garrett change his name a second time and move to Cambridge? 13:04:50 <_YKY_> *It seems that I need to use (setf (nth (position element the-list) the-list) something) ... rather complicated 13:04:52 [and what's the name of that sounds synthesizer program again?] 13:05:01 common music? 13:05:02 *nunb* is just keeding, keeding! 13:05:08 kami-: and if you want to deal with the underlying methods, then just macroexpand it until you see the contextl generated method name 13:05:11 or the lispworks one announced the other day 13:05:23 Xof: No, the one the French guy wrote, with a CLIM GUI. 13:06:09 _YKY_: yes, or use elt etc. (btw you might consider changing your nick, _ is not a beloved character for CLers :-) 13:06:23 ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 13:06:34 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.108.152] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:06:44 Hey, we usually ship on optical disks. But we will gladly make our app available to you as a download, with documentation, any time. 13:06:44 (Yes, there's a price tag.) 13:06:45 I mean, ITAware meets all of Summermute's criteria apart from the "downloadable" bit; he's even probably used it himself 13:06:47 attila_lendvai: thanks 13:07:19 minion: Please tell Summermute about cl-wav-synth. 13:07:20 Summermute: please see cl-wav-synth: cl-wav-synth is a wav sample editor, a spectrum editor and a song editor. http://www.cliki.net/cl-wav-synth 13:08:03 reddit yielded http://www.koncon.nl/downloads/ACToolbox/ -- what's a better installer than a universal binary? 13:08:04 there is that aeroplane software as well 13:08:04 attila_lendvai: er. Aren't they all called =layered-function-definer-for-= ? 13:08:22 -!- shadowhywind [n=shadowhy@76.199.163.42] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:08:33 piano? 13:08:43 serichsen thats the one 13:09:06 <_YKY_> What's difference between nth and elt? 13:09:23 clhs nth 13:09:23 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_nth.htm 13:09:23 _YKY_ nth is for list elt for sequences 13:09:25 clhs elt 13:09:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_elt.htm 13:09:30 Reav_1 [n=Reav_1@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 13:10:00 _YKY_: lists in general shouldn't be destructively modified, if you wish to do this often (find element, replace it) use something like getf? 13:10:29 http://gigamonkeys.com/book/beyond-lists-other-uses-for-cons-cells.html#lookup-tables-alists-and-plists 13:10:30 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 13:10:30 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:10:57 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.74.62] has joined #lisp 13:10:58 Ok, i'm sorta gotta get onto other stuff, but Gsharp - SUCKS. Even the web page is a joke. just so happens i own quite a few commercial (and free) music packages and the big selling points I can see for Gsharp are a few clunky screen shots and ASDF - give us all a collective break, and someone direct the Gsharp authors toward more productive lives ;-) 13:11:26 <_YKY_> I have a tree that I need to destructively modify... is there a better way to do it> 13:11:33 "direct ... toward more productive lives". Yes. 13:12:00 excellent 13:12:11 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:12:15 cliki needs a facelift. would you be willing to do it, Summermute? :) 13:12:16 kami-: they are, but i don't remember that, instead just macroexpand 13:12:22 looks like my assessment of your age was in fact correct 13:12:36 Summermute: As I predicted, you added two new conditions "must not have a webpage that is a joke" and "must not such according to Summermute". 13:12:55 *suck 13:13:55 I started Web programming back around '95 at startups, but my art/design skills really suck. When i started my own firm, I hired a whole room full of those guys and then someone else to manage them :-) 13:14:19 If someone writes a new backend for lilypond that renders to gtk+, there may be hope yet 13:14:23 hey, so you would regard "web programming" as "real", perhaps? 13:14:29 And I'm only 43 years young. Sheesh, I'm already in the middle of a midlife crisis. No need to rub it in :-) 13:14:35 Summermute: So, yes, your Clean answer #1 is correct, but what is not correct is when you said "Not the answer I was hope for", because it does seem that you were hoping exactly for that. 13:15:06 Summermute: oh, don't worry, I'm giving you 30 years back 13:15:09 Summermute: what is your point, anyway? We're quite happy with what we're doing. 13:15:27 serichsen: There's nothing more terrible than people who think they're happy when they really aren't. :( 13:16:03 Nah, really. I'm more or less slowly rejuvenating my Lisp/Scheme chops and writing a compiler (for a typed, more ML like language) in PLT Scheme. So I really am curious what the lay of the land is these days. 13:16:14 Xach: actually, there is: people trying to persuade happy people that they shouldn't be. 13:17:00 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-140-191-199.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 13:17:00 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 13:17:08 will it have VS integration, Summermute ? .. haa :) 13:17:21 where's the GUI? 13:17:23 Summermute: when you come on IRC to run your mouth and try to impress people, it's more effective if you don't behave like a complete ass. 13:18:07 By the way, how old is someone who is 43 years young? Do you subtract 43 from his life expectancy to get the age? 13:18:28 *beach* wonders what condition is going to be added so as to eliminate OpenMusic. 13:18:37 for a russian that's gonna be quite low 13:18:40 I don't know where that comes from, but yes, nasty or while i like emacs, VS and Eclipse are both target hosting ide's. No "ha ha"s implied. 13:19:17 "No music programs"? "Not written by French people"? 13:19:29 attila_lendvai: in make-primitive-presentations-node in http://dwim.hu/live/hu.dwim.wui/test/component.lisp, the type date/time/timestamp are supposed to be the ones defined as persistent-types in perec? 13:19:35 beach: do i hear prolog? 13:19:53 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:06 kami-: no, they should come from local-time. (there's a pending debase how to name time, although daytime was dropped, but cl:time is very annoying). make sure you use our local-time branch for now 13:21:24 -!- Reav_1 [n=Reav_1@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit ["~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~"] 13:22:41 serichsen: well, 43 = roughly 1/3 my IQ and 2 * your IQ. Nice day, mate. Don't fill the drool cup too quickly. 13:22:54 bartiosze [i=bartiosz@nintendos.pl] has joined #lisp 13:23:15 attila_lendvai: local-time does export timestamp, but no date and no time 13:29:33 awww, third of iq 13:32:46 kami-: hrm, maybe i'm wrong and they should be the perec typedefs... dunno, asked levy, but he's busy. i'll forward his answer when i get it... 13:33:17 guaqua: modesty is a virtue ;-) 13:35:07 -!- knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has quit ["I feal like rebooting in to ubuntu 09.10"] 13:36:05 *tcr* finds it mildly terrifying that he's on enometh's side of the fence 13:37:26 cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 13:38:44 *Xach* is reminded of the admonition to agree with ideas, not with people 13:39:10 "i hate your guts, but you might have a half of a point in there, somewhere" 13:39:28 <_YKY_> How come delete is not destructive in CLISP? 13:39:40 *attila_lendvai* amens that, and decides to send his slime keymap cleanup diff to slime-devel... 13:39:41 _YKY_: How do you test? 13:39:56 i posted the blog entry to blogspot, if anybody cares 13:40:08 jdz: i am eagerly reading it in google reader at this very moment 13:40:23 attila_lendvai: I think it'll have more chance if you first ask why it's done the way it's done, and state your problem. 13:40:24 where can this blog post be seen? 13:40:33 jdz: Do you think you will write more about common lisp in the future? Would you like to join our team at Planet Lisp Inc? 13:40:34 <_YKY_> I do (delete list1 list2) and then look at list2 13:40:40 t-b-o-g.blogspot.com 13:41:01 <_YKY_> And list2 remains unchanged 13:41:10 _YKY_: Try to minimize your test case and paste it on paste.lisp.org. 13:41:18 I forget the real name of enometh. 13:41:31 Maddhu? 13:42:26 rstandy [n=rastandy@pc212-189-140-32.unile.it] has joined #lisp 13:42:28 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:42:30 Xach: i'm pretty sure i'll write more about CL, maybe not that frequently as this week, though 13:42:31 tcr: i'm aware of that, but i still don't want to invest that much time in that... i'll state my problem in two lines, send the patch, and think that i did what is a reasonable effort from my POV. my primary goals is not to have it included in slime HEAD... although it would have its good sideffects for me, too 13:42:44 fusss: right. Thanks. 13:43:17 knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has joined #lisp 13:43:19 <_YKY_> Simply: (setf list1 '(a b c d e)) and then (delete 'b list1) 13:43:34 <_YKY_> The result is that list1 remains unchanged 13:44:13 tcr: btw, i kinda know the why part... or at least i have an impression. the keymap cleanup is simply seems to be half finished... 13:44:20 <_YKY_> "remove" is supposed to be non-destructive and "delete" is destructive 13:44:31 _YKY_: No that's not completely true. 13:44:41 _YKY_: DELETE _may_ modify the sequence, it does not need to 13:45:13 <_YKY_> It's such a pain to destructively modify a list... 13:45:27 attila_lendvai: Yeah that could be true. Still if you put it as a question, it'll come across as less demanding 13:46:42 Alabaman_ [n=badgerfa@81.226.253.54] has joined #lisp 13:46:51 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:48:48 okflo [n=user@91.115.87.81] has joined #lisp 13:50:17 timor [n=martin@w4084.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 13:51:53 _YKY_: (setf sequence (delete item sequence)) 13:52:15 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:52:34 <_YKY_> Yeah that's what I'm doing 13:52:49 morphling [n=stefan@89.13.38.165] has joined #lisp 13:55:25 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:55:29 alexandria has a a couple of *f modify-macros .. deletef, nconcf, unionf, appendf, reversef, maxf, minf, .. so, e.g., (setf seq (delete item seq)) becomes (deletef seq item) 13:57:52 mrm` [n=mmourato@77.79.144.222.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:02:18 shemanin [n=shemanin@94.41.47.108.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:02:59 lispm [n=joswig@e177126115.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:03:02 -!- _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:03:02 -!- bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:04:10 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 14:05:14 _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:05:14 bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:06:19 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-213-82.taconic.net] has quit [] 14:06:40 hi lispm 14:06:46 hi 14:07:01 how is it in mountain village? 14:07:11 .o(ugh) 14:07:35 not too bad 14:08:44 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 14:08:55 -!- shemanin [n=shemanin@94.41.47.108.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has quit ["leaving"] 14:08:58 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:09:12 -!- mrm` [n=mmourato@77.79.144.222.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has left #lisp 14:11:30 -!- okflo [n=user@91.115.87.81] has left #lisp 14:11:38 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:12:38 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:12:42 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 14:13:04 timchen1` [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has joined #lisp 14:13:35 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 14:14:38 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:15:07 benny` [n=benny@i577A19C9.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:16:13 kami-: local-time/perec/wui should use the same symbol, but the defptype in perec needs to be made smarter for that, and various other smallies are pending... 14:16:30 *symbols for time, date, timestamp 14:16:47 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 14:20:36 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6DF45.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 14:21:42 -!- benny [n=benny@87.122.7.82] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:24:38 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 14:25:59 -!- benny` is now known as benny 14:26:21 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:26:24 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6DF45.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:16 drgnvale [n=acristin@209.16.73.144] has joined #lisp 14:30:24 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:22 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:33:22 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:36:17 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 14:38:26 Axius [n=ojof@92.82.74.121] has joined #lisp 14:40:56 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-211-174.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:42:11 -!- nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:42:48 -!- bill` [n=wat@iamtheblackwizards.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:44:02 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:46:05 metawilm [n=user@g229049203.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:46:35 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 14:46:54 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 14:47:54 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 14:50:54 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177126115.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:52:40 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:52:43 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:52:57 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:54:43 swathanthran [n=user@117.204.83.149] has joined #lisp 14:55:19 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 14:55:36 udzinari [n=user@195.212.29.187] has joined #lisp 14:56:59 -!- udzinari [n=user@195.212.29.187] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:57:17 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:00:01 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:06 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.82.74.121] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:05:50 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-61-208.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:06:38 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 15:11:59 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:12:53 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:12:59 waddaya now, i have been debugging a bug caused by a friggen cloud power outage 15:13:44 pray for lightning 15:13:53 it would be nice if linode didn't go down faster a drunk quad-plegic in a bare-knuckle fight 15:14:34 s/vps/cloud/g for instant cred 15:14:39 Hmm, that's pretty old news, right? They had the problem 48+ hours ago. 15:14:56 fusss: so, that's why google chat has issues? :) 15:15:02 nope, i was on it 30 minutes ago 15:15:25 yep, it has issues since around then 15:16:03 jersey is down, sf is up 15:16:25 i have 6 boxes with them and half are lit, and whence the "bug" part 15:16:34 milanj [n=milan@79.101.138.150] has joined #lisp 15:16:59 fusss: People have been having linode problems for the past few days. Count yourself lucky, I suppose, that yours only started recently. 15:18:20 this is weird, it just came back up just now. but yeah xach, never had trouble with the west coast boxes and never noticed east coast until i needed it to upgrade it just now. seems like my redundancy thing doesn't suck :-) 15:20:54 nicktastique [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 15:22:24 Guthur [i=c13dbf05@gateway/web/freenode/session] has joined #lisp 15:24:10 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483EBFB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:01 -!- timor [n=martin@w4084.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:27:36 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:28:58 fusss: what sort of bug? I was having some weird stuff happen with apache on my linode, and I have no idea what caused it... 15:29:20 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:29:36 http://search.twitter.com/search?q=linode has some stuff 15:34:21 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:34:38 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:34:44 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:38:04 robyonrails [n=roby@82.53.176.25] has joined #lisp 15:39:32 In the morning, I had this question pop up in my mind: Is there a technical reason that would prevent SBCL from being buildable via ASDF? 15:40:51 tcr: if you were not here...: Fare was playing with the idea of building sbcl with xcvb a recently 15:41:17 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:41:20 No I didn't attend that discussion, what was the conclusion? 15:41:49 that it's far from the top of the TODO of xcvb, but it should be doable 15:42:17 I have interests in it. Gotta talk to Fare about it. 15:42:19 but re asdf, my impression is that xcvb is far more sophisticated inside than asdf... 15:42:48 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 15:43:22 ok, why? 15:43:35 (both to the asdf question and to the xcvb aspiration) 15:44:50 I want to catch all the notes, and style-warnings signalled during the build process and save them along their source-location to some file, and then write some slime-magic to annotate the respective files with the notes 15:45:15 i was waiting for this... it's only *my impression*, vaguely coming form hacking asdf a bit for random stuff, reading Fare's blog, cfasl, etc. it's worth exactly as much as my impression is worth... 15:45:38 wouldn't that mean a quite deep integration of sbcl with xcvb/asdf? 15:45:48 no 15:46:04 ...and from playing about half a day with xcvb 15:46:06 tcr: ok, but you definitely can't build sbcl entirely in-process 15:46:07 quite the opposite, i think 15:46:53 how is it built nowadays? make and tailored lisp-code? 15:46:53 on the other hand, it would be quite easy to do the moral equivalent of (defsystem sbcl :in-order-to ((compile-op (run-program "make.sh" ())))) 15:48:29 do the warning messages not get shoved to the output pipe of the terminal? 15:48:50 surely you can just grab it from there, no? 15:50:07 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:53:00 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 15:56:03 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:14 Guthur: there's just way too many of them, and it's pretty much lost where they are coming from in the flat text 16:00:11 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:00:53 TR2N [i=email@89.180.168.253] has joined #lisp 16:01:12 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 16:06:22 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 16:06:56 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:08:34 -!- Fufie [n=poff@80.203.160.34] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:09:02 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:09:35 Xof: Can you remember our discussion regarding who-specializes? I'd like to include a function as outlined by nikodemus here http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.steel-bank.devel/11900/focus=11902 to sb-introspect. I'm open to all suggestions you have. 16:11:20 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:14:29 gaze_ [n=gaze@ResNet-36-86.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 16:14:59 -!- gaze [n=gaze@ResNet-36-86.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:15:00 Hello all. I have a question: how do you write a double-float "0.0"? is there something like "0.0d" or something like that? or (the double-float 0.0) is the right way of doing it? 16:15:18 jleija: 0.0d0 is a double float. 16:15:21 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:15:30 thanks Xach 16:15:33 Jafet [n=Jafet@194.245.48.60.kmr02-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 16:16:04 jleija: 0.0 might be too, depending on the value of *read-default-float-format* 16:16:22 Axius [n=ojof@92.82.89.20] has joined #lisp 16:16:28 ok, I'll check on that 16:16:46 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.82.89.20] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:16:55 yeah, I have it in single-float 16:17:00 *Xach* has a server that locks up tramp, so he puts together a sbcl-and-inotify-powered directory rsync loop 16:17:46 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@130.83.156.186] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 16:17:47 Axius [n=ojof@92.82.89.20] has joined #lisp 16:18:37 tcr: sb-introspect is meant to be for providing a stable interface to sbcl introspective internals 16:18:58 who-specializes can be implemented entirely in terms of exported functionality (sb-mop:specializer-direct-methods) 16:19:09 so, I don't see why anything needs to be added to sb-introspect 16:20:35 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.82.89.20] has quit [Client Quit] 16:22:08 ejs [n=eugen@174-82-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:41 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:22:44 I thought for completeness in addition to the already-existing who-foo functions. I thought of sb-introspect as a stable introspective interface to sbcl internals. :) 16:22:46 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:23:08 right, but sb-mop is already a stable introspective interface 16:23:14 is there a way to list slots of a class, ie: for use with the with-slots construct to just include all slots? 16:24:30 class-direct-slots ? 16:24:50 (to that bit of it that you want to interface to with who-specializes) 16:25:33 Xof: Sb-mop consists of primitives, sb-introspect of convenient higher-level utilities. 16:26:10 what's the command that makes sbcl override optimize declarations? 16:26:32 tcr: I don't think that's sb-introspect's mandate at all 16:26:39 egoz [n=Egoz@118.96.226.152] has joined #lisp 16:27:00 the_unmaker [n=g@209.31.33.5] has joined #lisp 16:27:04 sb-introspect is something to make it possible to introspect sbcl through a stable-enough interface, without worrying about object layout changes or compiler refactoring 16:27:22 yep, i'm also planning to provide a patch for sb-introspect that can detect deadlocks and track the path to the root objects that retain something from being gc'd... should i drop the idea of putting it in sb-introspect then? 16:27:25 I can add it do swank-sbcl directly of course, still people may look at output of apropos, see all the who-foo functions (but not who-specializes) and draw wrong conclusions (bah I hate the "think of the children" arguments) 16:27:35 we have that code working, just needs a canonical place... 16:27:40 lpolzer_: there's sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 16:27:59 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:28:02 stassats, I think that's the one I was looking for. thanks! 16:28:13 attila_lendvai: at least the root objects thing sounds very much like it's walking the heap, which definitely comes under the "introspect using internals" mandate 16:28:27 and sb-ext:describe-compiler-policy should be useful for this too 16:28:27 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:28:29 almost certainly the deadlocks thing too 16:28:57 Xof: it only needs the map-allocated-objects function from the internals, and maybe a bit of hashtable layout 16:28:58 tcr: do you think the functionality is non-trivial to implement correctly? 16:29:34 I do not yet know how to do the bit about eql-specializers. 16:30:03 *attila_lendvai* would prefer to have a collection of public introspection functions, even if some of them are trivial to implement using the rest... 16:30:03 I can't see how that's in any way similar to who-specializes, which is just a different name for the already exported, already supported, specializer-direct-methods 16:30:49 or am I wrong? 16:31:21 maybe I'm wrong. (How are you planning to allow the eql-specializers to be passed to who-specializes? 16:31:48 I thought the who-foo functions returned source locations, not just functions 16:32:16 For example, I sometimes need the list of all subclasses (or superclasses), and yeah of course it's straight-forward to implement that on top of class-direct-sub/superclasses but at the time I always curse because I want it know and not have to interrupt my current line of thought 16:32:32 so introspective convenience functions can be dead handy sometimes 16:32:45 +1 16:33:17 -!- Guthur [i=c13dbf05@gateway/web/freenode/x-vzdocygpbsszvnov] has quit ["Page closed"] 16:33:29 -!- sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 16:34:11 milanj: what package is that? 16:34:28 sb-mop in sbcl 16:34:37 ccl if you are using ccl 16:34:40 Xof: eql-specializes is a boolean, if it's T it'll also include source-location for method eql-specializing on the class -- from my understanding 16:35:02 ah! i was tring clos and got nowhere 16:35:20 eql-specializing on the _class_? Or eql-specializing on any instances of the class? 16:35:33 use apropos, it will show you package 16:36:02 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:36:08 Xof: the latter I'd say 16:37:23 that may not be exportedly possible 16:39:17 Ogedei [n=user@e178221230.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:41:06 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.203.143] has joined #lisp 16:41:49 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A19C9.versanet.de] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1"] 16:42:17 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 16:43:45 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@pc212-189-140-32.unile.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:47:01 -!- dmelani [n=dmelani@c83-253-52-86.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:47:17 -!- smackarang [n=user@91.190.137.166] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 16:47:43 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:48:12 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:53:08 *tcr* got bitten again by force-loading mcclim recompiling sb-bsd-sockets 16:54:10 mrm` [n=mmourato@77.79.144.222] has joined #lisp 16:54:13 -!- ejs [n=eugen@174-82-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:05:24 pjb [n=t@85-169-61-208.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 17:06:26 rutski [n=rutski@96.56.54.186] has joined #lisp 17:07:26 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:08:01 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:08:17 lhz [n=shrekz@213.114.170.185] has joined #lisp 17:09:07 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:09:07 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:09:16 attila_lendvai: re date/time/timestamp: I'm looking forward to seeing the solution. Meanwhile, I will hack the component demo to use wui::date (which fixes the demo). 17:09:25 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 17:09:43 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:10:04 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:10:37 -!- ASau [n=user@host176-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 17:12:10 anyone here run an app and use lisp data structure instead of a database? 17:12:55 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 17:14:33 kefka [n=user@75.101.205.165] has joined #lisp 17:17:12 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.58.146] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:17:35 *Xach* wonders what happened with Xof's cvs commit to get the CVS instructions added in 17:17:35 why is that lisp oriented question ? 17:17:43 What do you mean precisely? I wrote a RADIUS server long ago which had a BTree indexed log file which had key/value pairs both of which were sexprs. 17:18:01 pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.58.146] has joined #lisp 17:18:01 Xach: oh, damn, I got a timeout, so I saved the buffer to a file, then used cvs commit -F 17:18:06 ah 17:18:10 It was in BIGLOO scheme thouch rather than common lisp. 17:18:33 I am apparently in overwhelmed by technology mode; I have completely lost a commit 17:18:34 s/ouch/ough/ 17:18:44 caoliver: neat 17:18:45 or rather something that I could have sworn I've committed somewhere but have no idea where or when 17:18:52 drewc [n=drewc@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:57 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229084224.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:19:19 ejs [n=eugen@170-4-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:15 Did you ever use a class-eq specializer? If so, to what purpose? 17:21:52 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:21:54 tcr: helps keep the class hierarchy shallower instead of having a leaf class that's exactly the same thing as its parent. 17:22:11 And the performance aspect is obvious. 17:22:42 tcr: for things like validate-superclass, where declaring that two metaclasses are compatible shouldn't imply that two submetaclasses are necessarily compatible 17:23:05 Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has joined #lisp 17:23:35 similarly, standard-slot-value-using-class can specialize on (class-eq standard-class) and assume that all slots are standard 17:23:38 Makes sense 17:24:35 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 17:27:00 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-164.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:27:45 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:28:42 -!- ejs [n=eugen@170-4-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:29:11 powertoy [n=powertoy@88.238.207.239] has joined #lisp 17:30:25 i need a portable gui with opengl support, any idea? 17:32:16 benny` [n=benny@i577A19C9.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:32:17 afaik mcclim doesn't have opengl support and is not highly portable, so i guess i need to use a gtk or tcltk port 17:33:06 ejs [n=eugen@170-4-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:23 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.74.62] has left #lisp 17:37:46 -!- metawilm [n=user@g229049203.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:38:55 Salk [n=Slax@79.102.44.37] has joined #lisp 17:39:01 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-vpaobznwcjcmipxb] has joined #lisp 17:39:10 -!- Salk [n=Slax@79.102.44.37] has quit [Dead socket] 17:39:27 chitech [n=khuongdp@0x573a1ccd.svgnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:39:45 powertoy: add opengl support to mcclim :) 17:40:17 so, looking at this, there is no shortcut to enumerate all of your slots into with-slot automatically, because the evaluation of self is done at runtime not compile time 17:40:18 schme: i wish i was that good, i am kinda newbie 17:40:24 unless someone has a workaround 17:41:03 powertoy: What an excellent place to start learning :) 17:41:39 schme: better place to start learning than adding D3D to McCLIM ;-) 17:41:42 ignotus [n=ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 17:41:42 -!- Elench is now known as YogSothoth 17:41:58 p_l: What is D3D ? 17:42:06 p_l: direct 3d i guess 17:42:16 Demosthenes: why would you want to have all your slots in a with-slots... are you actually using them all in your function? 17:42:18 hello, is it possible to get the SBCL reader's position (file/line), that I can use for better error reporting? 17:42:24 -!- YogSothoth is now known as Deus-Imperator 17:42:29 in my own error handlern 17:43:17 so, if i have changes in my git working tree, then i can not pull? 17:43:56 attila_lendvai: I think so, you have to commit your changes first 17:44:00 or stash 17:44:04 or you may want to do a git stash / git stash pop 17:44:11 *Xof* gives git technical support! 17:44:24 *attila_lendvai* goes reading, thanks 17:45:50 great, one more bit of git voodoo in my head. it worked though, thanks! 17:45:51 -!- ejs [n=eugen@170-4-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:46:35 schme: but still, unfortunately, I need write a gui which has an opengl widget before i start learning to add opengl support to mcclim and then add it :) 17:47:28 attila_lendvai: in local-time, is the *project-home-directory* scheme likely to change in the near future? I have had to patch it to make the system usable for some cases, but I wonder if it's worth submitting 17:47:30 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 17:47:36 ignotus: there are no files and/or lines to the reader, the reader only knows streams. However, streams have a FILE-POSITION accessor, which may do what you want. 17:48:12 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-178-166.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:49:45 drewc: thanks 17:51:17 *tcr* wonders why sb-pcl::map-specializers doesn't intern and call the function in one go 17:51:28 i'm considering cells-gtk or ltk options since i heard that there are extensions to support opengl for them but i couldn't find the extensions yet, and also, cells-gtk seems to be a better option because it is based on a more advenced graphic toolkit, but it seems to be poorly documented for now, so i'm confused and some opinions on which one to choose or some information on their condition would be great 17:51:57 arbscht: i don't think so, we supply our own zoneinfo/ so it will probably remain for a while... although there's a TODO entry to use the non-compiled files, but they will be loaded the same way from a project relative dir... 17:52:44 arbscht: IOW, send you patch to the lisp please 17:52:52 alright 17:53:07 *attila_lendvai* has a lisp 17:54:02 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:20 powertoy: does qt do the opengl? 17:54:41 schme: it does have a widget for that, afaik 17:55:05 powertoy: you could try cl-gtk2 17:55:31 Axius [n=ojof@92.82.89.20] has joined #lisp 17:55:53 powertoy: there is some qt thing.. maybe that is better 17:56:07 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.82.89.20] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:56:15 Note that I haven't used it myself, but the page and its blog make it sound like it addresses your needs. http://clgtk2.wordpress.com/2009/10/04/progress-update/ 17:56:58 billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-213-82.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:30 rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 17:58:13 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-240-235.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 17:58:47 Willem [n=user@g229049203.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:59:00 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-178-166.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 18:00:20 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.58.146] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:05:34 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-112.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:05:50 lichtblau: yes, it seems like a good option, is there a more commonly used option for a portable gui in cl programs? it maybe without opengl support since i guess i can use opengl in a seperate window using cl-opengl, in fact a well documentation and portablity for the library is more important 18:07:56 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:08:18 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:10:16 nyquist [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:11:59 -!- chitech [n=khuongdp@0x573a1ccd.svgnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Operation timed out] 18:13:28 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 18:14:04 What is the name of the non-eql specializers? 18:14:30 powertoy: i think people with business/commercial interest in producing CL GUIs often use LispWorks. 18:15:32 Xach: and afaik it uses its own clim implementation? 18:15:32 Xof: Do you mind if I make map-specializers have the following lambda-list (function &key class-specializers class-eq-specializers eql-specializers)? 18:15:34 last time i needed a gui i just used CFFI and gtk 18:15:43 levy [n=levy@89.223.232.225] has joined #lisp 18:16:08 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 18:16:20 commonqt is very nice though, i'd go that route if i had to do it over again 18:16:35 tcr: users can define their own subclasses of specializer 18:16:41 powertoy: No, CAPI 18:17:03 powertoy: I don't know if it includes a CLIM in addition to that 18:17:26 you can get CLIM for lispworks 18:17:32 rlb3 [n=robert@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:35 the lispworks staff thoroughly discourage it, though 18:17:39 Xof: How does the current definition of map-specializers heed those? 18:18:19 I have no idea 18:18:28 Xof: why do they discourage CLIM? 18:18:46 because commercial clim is an unmaintainable unsupportable pile of Ye Ancient code 18:18:54 levy pasted "making a single form for a generic function for partial evaluation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89511 18:19:10 tcr: it doesn't 18:19:20 -!- ol23 [n=user@62.96.71.161] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:19:31 you're getting good at spotting holes in my protocols 18:19:34 Xof: If I'm at it, I'll make it so 18:19:58 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 18:20:16 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:21:24 levy annotated #89511 "and partial evaluating it" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89511#1 18:21:45 Xof: Is the name class-specializers correct/appropriate for the usual kind of specializers? 18:22:09 just CLASS, I think 18:22:42 levy annotated #89511 "partial evaluate for an integer" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89511#2 18:22:55 what for the user-specializers? 18:24:11 there is a problem with the order of :after and :before methods, I don't yet know where does that come from 18:24:11 levy, memo from pkhuong: in general (especially without sealing or with a very flat hierarchy), the approach in generate-discrimination-net-... is hopelessly exponential in the number of methods (since the set of applicable methods is almost the powerset of methods). When a certain limit of cases is reached, PCL aborts and switches to a more dynamic approach (cache and slow-pathed lookup), iiuc. 18:24:45 -!- PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:25:06 ziga` [n=user@BSN-142-104-216.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:36 pkhuong, thanks for that note, I already had this feeling 18:25:45 but in general this is not a problem 18:26:15 -!- _YKY_ [i=YKY@119.237.164.207] has quit ["flip: back to simulation"] 18:26:15 I mean it is a problem, but for partial evaluation I can also do what SBCL does 18:27:07 I only need to have the source of the more dynamic approach, that is the slow path, and partial evaluate that wrt. to the generic function and its arguments 18:27:39 last comment on new bar of cells-gtk is at 2007-05-14, i thought it is still actively maintained but it seems not, cl-gtk2 will be a better choice i guess, it's documentation is also very nice, i'll also look for commonqt, thanks 18:28:17 another approach would to expose a completely different interface that a precomputer next-method-list and instead execute the discrimination net incrementally. 18:28:47 -!- powertoy [n=powertoy@88.238.207.239] has left #lisp 18:29:35 As soon as a match is found, the method is executed, and CALL-NEXT-METHOD resumes the search. 18:29:37 pkhuong, yes that would be quite doable, the only problem is that I know little about how to do that (yet), so that's why I'm relying on SBCL's internal function 18:29:49 Xof: Is your code for pathname-type= electronically available? 18:30:28 Axius [n=ojof@92.82.89.20] has joined #lisp 18:30:33 Xof: that reminds me... how much of CLOS would we really need? 18:30:44 tcr: I can make it so, but if it's for the purpose of testing map-specializers, there are subclasses of specializer in tests/mop*.lisp 18:30:52 pkhuong: er, for what? For the compiler? 18:30:55 erh.. * need in the compiler. 18:31:07 Or want, rather, I suppose. 18:31:11 I don't know 18:31:18 Xof: Ok 18:31:45 I mean, there's the horrible type system / subtypep thing that it would be nice to reimplement using clos, as long as that doesn't give us metacircularity 18:31:47 pkhuong, still the current approach seems to be good enough to partial evaluate a make-instance down to a form which is as optimized as the one that SBCL compiles by hand made optimizations 18:32:02 and it is very interesting to inspect the resulting form 18:33:05 dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:33:19 Xof: depends on how much code would be involved in implementing a mini-CLOS, and potentially recompile into real CLOS post-boot. 18:34:31 i was spoiled by perltidy, especially when it came to alignment. is there something similar for lisp in emacs? 18:34:45 What does it do? 18:34:53 tcr: pretty-printer 18:35:18 perltidy? it reformats source code to use consistent format, and aligns things like array defs into vertical columns, etc. 18:35:36 i'm manually aligning slot definitions and wishing for perltidy ;] 18:35:55 I don't generally think that's worth the trouble. 18:35:58 levy annotated #89511 "even better parital evaluation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89511#3 18:36:16 Demosthenes: Actually there's a general emacs command for that kind of thing 18:36:28 enlighten me! ;] 18:36:49 There's M-x align, I have no idea if you can make it work for the defclass case 18:37:30 powertoy: just bacause something hasn't needed a patch in 2 years doesn't mean it's not working ;). This is CL, after all... you can run code that hasn't been modified in 50 years :P 18:37:31 redshank aligns defclass 18:37:58 redshank FTW! 18:39:35 see! good suggestion. 18:39:41 i wonder tif thats included in emacs 23 18:39:45 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 18:39:59 or you could use org tables 18:40:23 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 18:40:47 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:44:15 levy annotated #89511 "please don't assume that partial evaluation can only handle constants" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89511#4 18:44:57 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:46:01 do you have any idea where could I experiment with the partial evaluator? 18:46:02 -!- benny` is now known as benny 18:46:24 levy: your paste title reminds me of "Please don't assume that lisp is only good for ... " 18:46:48 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:46:50 I'm thinking about an already existing library that could be win a lot out of this 18:47:12 Adlai, sure, I was also thinking of that, google will find that post, so be it :-) 18:48:01 so, the library may also use generic functions, etc. any idea? 18:48:56 levy: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/quoted.html#lisp-utility-caveat 18:50:55 PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 18:51:09 I think my sequence iterators could make use of partial evaluation to obliterate function call overhead 18:51:14 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 18:52:39 Xof: what's a good pattern to search the mop* tests for? 18:53:36 hmmm, I think the ordering of :before and :after methods is wrong due to incorrectly partial evaluating multiple-value-prog1 18:53:47 mop-28: or-specializer 18:53:58 tcr, do you a particular example? 18:54:23 dgou [n=dgou@c-24-23-119-48.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:27 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.82.89.20] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:54:54 I was thinking of partial evaluating read/write methods for an open file or socket 18:54:56 -!- dgou [n=dgou@c-24-23-119-48.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:55:08 dgou [n=dgou@c-24-23-119-48.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:06 -!- dgou [n=dgou@c-24-23-119-48.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:57:27 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:58:01 anyway, I'm leaving now (today's 60 minutes lisp hacking is over), but if you have a not so complicated example which could win a lot from p-eval don't hesitate to let me know 18:58:40 *levy* is afk 19:00:21 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 19:02:03 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:02:05 lemo1nem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:02:58 ejs [n=eugen@170-4-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:02 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-98-210-236-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:03:06 peddie [n=peddie@c-98-210-236-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:54 -!- ejs [n=eugen@170-4-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has left #lisp 19:03:59 lenafalena [n=lena@host1-217-dynamic.55-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:04:09 -!- lenafalena [n=lena@host1-217-dynamic.55-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #lisp 19:04:24 Xof: I don't think (or rather cannot see) that custom specializers are currently held of anywhere 19:04:37 Axius [n=ojof@92.82.89.20] has joined #lisp 19:05:05 -!- lemo1nem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 19:05:07 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@82.53.176.25] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 19:05:25 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:06:47 redline6` [n=user@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:21 -!- redline6` [n=user@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #lisp 19:09:12 Seems like a hole indeed :) 19:12:54 -!- HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:13:42 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:12 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-31-198.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:19:25 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6DF45.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:20:22 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6DF45.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:00 -!- ziga` [n=user@BSN-142-104-216.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:21:12 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:21:34 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.232.225] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:22:25 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-42-90.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 19:23:35 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:23:36 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.254.207] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:25:13 -!- Willem [n=user@g229049203.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:26:20 -!- ntd [n=user@143.215.129.83] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:27:40 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 19:29:09 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:29:52 Quiet! 19:30:43 almost *too* quiet 19:30:45 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.82.89.20] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:31:08 yeah, spooky! Hallowing approaching? 19:31:09 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"] 19:31:23 *een 19:31:26 Yes. 19:31:33 gee, my typing sucks tonight. 19:32:05 That's what 2h of Vietnamese (preceded by 4h or preparation) can do to you. 19:32:09 *Xach* is trying to get the Lisp meetings published on twitter and on a planet lisp sidebar 19:32:41 ejs [n=eugen@170-4-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:34 beach: Are there ever any Lisp meetings near you? 19:33:49 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6DF45.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 19:34:23 Xach: Only ELS, ELW, and ECLM, which are all annual. But I am unaware of any monthly events. 19:35:16 Xach: Not quite true though. We organize "Lisp dinners", but they are not regular. 19:35:25 Show off. 19:35:37 caoliver: How so? 19:36:01 I live in the Lisp wastelands; there's NOTHING here of note. 19:36:11 and where would that be? 19:36:22 Traverse City, Michigan. 19:36:28 Xach: That's a good idea though. I might organize something like that. 19:36:39 Nice town, but no hacker culture. 19:36:50 that reminds me... 19:37:02 beach: do you keep in touch with geoff cant anymore? 19:37:02 caoliver: Bah, you aint seen nothin' yet. When I was in Auckland for a year, there were less than 10 lispers within a range of a 3h flight. 19:37:15 Yuck. 19:37:19 arbscht: Nope. Haven't talked to him for a while. 19:37:25 arbscht: What about you? 19:38:00 anyone knows Christoph Amort? 19:38:05 Aside from that, I think I might like NZ. 19:38:11 he controls lisp.geek.nz; I've been trying to arrange to have it point to an active website, in order to start a lisp group of sorts 19:38:14 caoliver: Oh, definitely. 19:38:50 arbscht: But where is he these days. His big project was to come to Europe for a year or more. 19:39:05 I believe he's in paris 19:39:25 demmel1 [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:39:31 arbscht: And he hasn't contacted me? That's so unacceptable. 19:39:58 that's why I asked :) but I'm not entirely certain of his location 19:40:13 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:40:16 Hmm, OK, so how can we find out? 19:40:42 *beach* googles "geoff cant paris" 19:40:50 I'm about to email him again regarding the website. perhaps I can ask on your behalf 19:41:15 arbscht: Please do. 19:41:19 Axius [n=ojof@92.82.89.20] has joined #lisp 19:41:24 ... Erlang hacker... 19:42:08 ...archaelus on Twitter... 19:42:19 that would be him 19:43:24 I am trying to find an email address. 19:44:39 I used the one I found here: http://github.com/archaelus/ 19:45:17 arbscht: Ah, an email address! 19:46:57 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:22 arbscht: I sent him an email in which I told him you wanted to get in touch. 19:48:47 archaelus on freenode also 19:48:59 faux` [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 19:49:03 Xach: But not #lisp, I guess. 19:49:25 nope. #erlang-otp apparently. 19:49:29 I mean, I know he was here in the past, but not recently. 19:50:18 -!- Ogedei [n=user@e178221230.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:50:47 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.82.89.20] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:51:37 If anyone ever gets to have a beer (or a "short black") with him, ask him how banking is run. You'll be amazed that you actually get your monthly statement mostly-right most-of-the-time. 19:52:37 beach: isn't everything made out of marshmellows and toothpicks? 19:52:52 ziga` [n=user@BSN-142-104-216.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:10 ryepup: According to archaelus, close enough. 19:53:42 Axius [n=ojof@92.84.25.235] has joined #lisp 19:54:08 Xof: What is the meaning of exact-class-specializer? 19:54:26 -!- ziga` [n=user@BSN-142-104-216.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:56:09 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.84.25.235] has quit [Client Quit] 19:56:44 -!- demmel1 [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:00:45 ruediger__ [n=ruediger@91-115-26-208.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:02:02 back to debugging local-time on ECL... I don't suppose anyone here has managed to get all of local-time's tests to pass on ECL? 20:02:16 -!- ruediger__ [n=ruediger@91-115-26-208.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:02:47 -!- ruediger_ [n=ruediger@188-23-94-24.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:02:50 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:04:20 -!- egoz [n=Egoz@118.96.226.152] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:04:57 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:04 ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-26-208.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:07:56 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 20:09:30 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-140-191-199.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:10:25 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:13:48 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:15:37 Xach: the Hamburg Lisp meetings are to be continued monthly now (after about a half year hiatus) 20:17:13 ziga` [n=user@BSN-142-104-216.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:28 serichsen: nice 20:18:05 serichsen: when is the next meeting? 20:18:19 Shamiq [n=Adium@adsl-68-78-134-142.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:22 mstevens [n=mstevens@82.132.139.33] has joined #lisp 20:21:24 There will also be a munich lisp meeting in the second week of november, but the date isn't fully settled yet 20:21:39 (where?) 20:21:43 oh, oops 20:22:04 legumbre__ [n=user@r190-135-64-75.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:22:42 Xach: * Mi 25.11.2009, 19h in http://www.ristorante-marilu.de/ 20:22:42 20:22:42 * Mi 27.01.2010, 19h (location will follow) 20:24:36 thanks 20:24:49 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-20-3.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:26:20 lispm [n=joswig@e177126115.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:28:12 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:29:07 -!- DylanJ [n=QQ@unaffiliated/dylanj] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:32:22 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177126115.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 20:32:53 lispm [n=joswig@e177126115.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:34:33 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-8-18.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 20:37:10 -!- Shamiq [n=Adium@adsl-68-78-134-142.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 20:40:52 -!- [Jackal_] [n=Jackal@118.95.40.211] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:41:54 *beach* chooses to listen to "Train of Thought" again in order to calm him down. 20:42:43 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 20:42:44 Way to0 syncopated for Xof. 20:42:47 *too 20:46:30 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-240-235.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:52:53 are you overly excited beach 20:53:16 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@tomoyuki28jp.xen.prgmr.com] has left #lisp 20:53:25 Guthur: Not any more. 20:54:37 i looked at the screenies for Gsharp there about 15mins ago, and i think they look pretty good, that guy earlier was talking out his rear 20:54:45 it is your work right? 20:55:21 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-36-8-18.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:55:26 Indeed. And I won't let myself get influenced by people like Summermute. 20:55:42 Guthur: Oh, and thanks! 20:57:36 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:57:41 ya he was trolling quite a bit 20:57:56 demmel1 [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 20:58:06 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:58:10 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@82.132.139.33] has quit [] 20:58:15 And, as was already pointed out by someone else about Movitz, Gsharp already served its purpose in that I got a number of publications out of it. 20:58:34 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-90974.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 20:59:17 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.254.207] has joined #lisp 20:59:48 cool, but producing useful software isn't a bad aspiration either 21:00:01 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6DF45.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:03 dysinger_ [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:00:23 Guthur: That has always been my goal. 21:00:40 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:00:46 it would be even better if it weren't buggy :-/ 21:00:52 I want my program to completely absorb all keyboard events sent to an X server and create arbitrary events in their place. How can I do this? xEvIE, XTest, XTrap, evdev, XInput...? 21:00:53 Guthur: I actually think Summermute was not a troll (by which I mean people who know they don't believe in what they are saying), but instead convinced about what he was saying. This, of course, is much worse than a troll. 21:00:56 Sorry about this off-topic one, but #xorg is dead and buried. 21:00:57 -!- dysinger_ is now known as dysinger 21:00:59 I've spent countless hours trying to figure this one out. 21:01:03 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 21:01:17 dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:48 Krystof: sure, but that was not the point of Summermute as far as I can tell. 21:03:04 I chatted with that guy a while back. What did he do that made you acutely aware of what shoe size his mouth was? 21:03:33 And as far as I can tell, OpenMusic is still being examined in order to define a way that it would be disqualified. 21:03:33 francogrex [n=user@47.141-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 21:03:33 ya i don't think he actually tried the gsharp software 21:04:16 Guthur: I really don't care either way. 21:04:27 udzinari [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:04:30 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 21:04:52 caoliver: Nothing important. Check the logs if you are curious. 21:05:24 tcr pasted "for Krystof: who-specializes" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89529 21:06:29 When I chatted, he just seemed harmlessly goofy. 21:06:51 I just thought he had taken a bit more ominous turn. 21:08:04 "Honor Thy Father" has got to be one of the rock tunes with the funniest lyrics (exerpts from movies) ever, but I am not sure it was intentional. 21:08:49 tcr: bleah. 21:08:59 caoliver: Yes, here he was both stupid, ignorant, and insulting. 21:09:13 Hah I take that as a compliment 21:09:21 I mean, that's probably as clean as you can do for now, which means that we're not giving you the right tools 21:09:27 Ok. Understood. 21:10:23 Krystof: I earlier asked your alter-ego what exact-class-specializer is supposed to denote. I think that's non-obvious 21:10:46 I'm not superfond of this proposed interface 21:11:13 I think I will concede that I was wrong, and that this functionality is not as trivial as I thought it would be 21:11:13 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:11:28 therefore, I am now going to reposition my conservatism to the details of the interface 21:12:08 caoliver: He came here with a question to which he already had an answer (the equivalent of "Lisp is not really used for anyting useful, now is it"). He just had to add sufficient conditons to his question in order for the answer to be what he expected. 21:12:32 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:33 I think there are two cases: one is everything that could be applicable to direct instances of a class; one is everything that could be applicable to generalized instances of a class 21:12:54 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:13:11 what's "generalized instance"? 21:13:17 instance of a class or any subclass 21:13:31 it's in the CLHS glossary 21:13:37 caoliver: And when it turned out that his conditions weren't enough, he added more conditions to the first counter example. But I am still waiting for the additional conditions that will disqualify OpenMusic. 21:13:41 Oh ok, yeah I agree with that 21:13:51 marioxcc [n=user@201.132.135.227] has joined #lisp 21:13:59 so, who-specializes-directly and who-specializes-generally 21:14:05 dmitri [n=dmitri@port8.seg99.ucf.edu] has joined #lisp 21:14:07 caoliver: It has been a while, so I think Summermute must be having a hard time coming up with any. 21:14:31 or (who-specializes class &key generally) 21:15:08 then those two can be implemented in terms of map-specializers-on-kludgy-steroids until I can bandage my protocol 21:16:06 (I think I would tend to favour two separate functions) 21:16:10 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [] 21:16:27 Krystof: btw. it's map-specializers vs. map-all-classes and map-all-generic-functions 21:16:45 beach: ;-) 21:17:24 beach: Don't the conditions boil down "written in Lisp"? 21:17:25 -!- nyquist [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:18:39 Krystof: I wonder how you think you can improve the protocol? 21:18:49 bah, that's just the kind of people "/ignore" was invented for, and I'll just leave it like that 21:19:00 -!- legumbre__ is now known as legumbre_ 21:19:14 tcr: Not at all! They boil down to: software that will satisfy my initial idea that no useful software is written in Lisp. 21:19:16 I like stuff that's written BY lisp as well. Code gen is fun. 21:19:27 -!- demmel1 [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:19:49 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:32 Dawgmatix__ [n=dman@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:10 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:31 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 21:22:33 tcr: Here is how it's done: You start of with some already fairly restrictive conditions that you know to be unsatisfiable by software you already know, like "downloadable for free", "not technical", "with good documentation, available on a web site", and then when a counter-example is found, you add new conditions like "the web site of the project must not be a joke". 21:23:00 tcr: have a weak-keyed hash table in each submetaclass of specializer containing the instances of those specializers 21:23:01 The correct answer is "Please conduct a survey and let us know the result." 21:23:03 (setf (funcall accessor ...)) doesn't work---how can I get around this easiest? 21:23:13 apply 21:23:19 Boston Lisp Meeting a 6pm today MIT 34-401B 21:23:36 then map-all-specializers is (map-all-classes specializer #'(lambda (c) (maphash ... ))) modulo argument order and so on 21:23:54 basically, you need to be interning your custom specializers anyway, so it should be part of the protocol 21:23:59 oh, and accessor should be know at compile time 21:24:03 known 21:24:17 did anyone try commonqt qt bindings? 21:24:22 i did 21:24:28 serichsen: does (funcall '(setf accessor) value object) work? 21:24:38 damnit, too many development lines 21:24:39 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:25:06 hi 21:25:17 hello Sikander 21:25:21 What's up? 21:25:48 Nothing much. Just hanging around, and hacking some lisp 21:25:51 stassats`: do they work allright? 21:25:51 apply also signals an error "only defined for function args" 21:25:57 Fare: I'll try 21:26:06 How are you? 21:26:42 Sikander: Me? Exhausted after 1.5h of intensive Vietnamese class. 21:26:43 ziga`: seems ok, i was able to sketch a web-browser with qt-webkit 21:26:55 stassats`: great, thanks 21:26:56 pr [n=pr@p579CAD06.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:02 beach: giving or taking? 21:27:10 Taking :) 21:28:01 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-31-198.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:28:04 Ah, ok 21:28:24 Just enriching your life, or does it have special purpose? 21:28:25 ziga`: there's even an emacs clone written using commonqt, called qthemlock 21:28:31 tieTYT [n=asdf@216.231.28.66] has joined #lisp 21:28:48 beach, I thought that was 2 hours 21:28:50 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:29:03 i guess he's not here right now 21:29:16 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:29:29 Sikander: The department, of which I am currently the head, has a branch of its masters program in Ho Chi Minh City, and I spend 2 month a year there. 21:29:40 beach: the correct name is Saigon 21:30:02 Fare: I am sure I told you that before I actually spent that time today. 21:30:11 beach: aha, sounds pretty nice 21:30:13 tieTYT: no 21:30:27 Fare: Not at all, it's Sài Gòn. 21:30:40 beach: I'm actually hacking the null background piece by piece to get ncurses working. 21:30:44 *shrug* tell him some nobody said his book rocks 21:30:49 -!- tieTYT [n=asdf@216.231.28.66] has left #lisp 21:31:00 Sikander: I am thrilled! 21:31:22 beach: Don't be. It'll probably take quite some time before I can submit something to devel. 21:31:31 :( 21:31:37 Sikander: I am very patient! 21:31:46 Well, then that's excellent! 21:31:56 I agree! 21:33:00 Fare: Are you turning into an old fart despite your young age? 21:33:21 I was born an old fart 21:33:23 It is his inner libeterian warping his spirit. 21:33:34 why so? 21:33:38 Fare: heh! I love it! :) 21:33:41 Speaking of which, how's that US currency doing? m:) 21:34:01 Zhivago, competing for the world-wide free fall competition 21:34:11 but still way behind the ZWD 21:35:02 I always said our new saviour would be even worse than the previous saviour. 21:35:26 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:35:37 (independently of which of the two contenders would win) 21:35:38 Don't worry, the Communist party is doing well in Japan. 21:35:39 Fare: The young people of Sài Gòn now call it T.P HCM. 21:35:45 Krystof: Do you think who-specializes-directly is supposed to consider eql specializers, or class-eq specializers? 21:35:52 -!- dmitri [n=dmitri@port8.seg99.ucf.edu] has quit ["Bees"] 21:36:09 *Fare* sings his evening prayer http://fare.livejournal.com/115171.html 21:36:45 beach, St Petersburg didn't stay Leningrad too long. 21:37:05 communism just always ugly people to get in charge 21:38:00 always/allows* 21:38:05 Guthur: Solzhenitsyn also noticed that KGB prison guards always had ugly-sounding names (garbage, shit, etc.) 21:38:16 and there's a lot of Dennis the Dentist... 21:38:22 stassats`: I'll into this qthemlock, sounds nice 21:38:25 Guthur: non-communism just allows rich people to get in charge 21:38:28 look* 21:38:30 be careful what your name is and what name you give your child. 21:39:07 apparently in Argentina you have to pretty to get a head, i remember someone standing for the rights of ugly people 21:39:08 rullie: in any country, it's only a matter of timing between the moment someone has power rich and the moment he is rich. 21:39:08 Fare: as an atheist, I can't really read that. 21:39:21 beach, your religion prohibits? 21:39:46 lol the grammar errors in that last post of mine is quite funny 21:40:03 Fare: in communist countries you use power to obtain wealth, in non-communist nations you do the reverse. I don't see much difference :p 21:40:21 Fare: The fact that I'm an atheist makes me tune out whenever I see references to thing exterior to my beliefs. 21:40:23 Guthur, is that the country that ran Betty La Fea? 21:41:17 http://5.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kolo40SQZq1qzy3cwo1_r1_500.jpg 21:41:44 beach, btw I'm a polyatheist -- there are many gods I don't believe in. 21:41:46 communism is actually against my religion, but i digress. I just try to be a decent person and take no part in political systems 21:42:06 -!- cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:42:10 Fare: Good luck to you! 21:42:18 -!- morphling [n=stefan@89.13.38.165] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:42:28 It seems that this cannot work. Apply with setf can only work with global function names, but I am giving a function as parameter. 21:42:35 *Adlai* is a polyapatheist 21:42:43 dudes, I am also in the #philosophy channel at the moment and for a second there I got confused the topics in #lisp are almost the same 21:42:46 rahul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:19 serichsen: Yeah of course it cannot. SETF is a macro. 21:43:30 francogrex: Don't worry, in #lisp they tend to disappear quite quickly. 21:43:30 serichsen, then don't -- instead, find the setf function and call it. 21:43:42 spontaneous destruction 21:44:02 francogrex: it should be the other way around, philosophers should sit around discussing Lis. 21:44:04 serichsen: you probably want to pass a setter closure like #'(lambda (new-value) (setf (place) new-value)) 21:44:04 aka garbage collection 21:44:04 *Lisp 21:44:25 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:31 caoliver: Did you go to Traverse City for work, or were you hatched there? 21:44:36 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.254.207] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:45:12 I'm determining one of a set of accessors, then pass that accessor to another function where I want to setf it 21:45:54 You can't, you have to pass the setter function 21:46:14 ahh 21:46:33 (Well you probably can involve some bad hacks and EVAL) 21:46:39 s/involve/involving/ 21:47:29 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-250.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:47:34 serichsen: setf is a macro that, roughly speaking, can find the setter function *name* given the getter function *name*. You don't have the name. 21:48:30 yeah yeah, I got it now 21:48:51 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@213.114.170.185] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:49:50 thanks a lot 21:49:56 Krystof: I'll implement both who-specializes-directly and -generally on top of map-specializers; if that's not what you meant, please write me a memo. 21:50:00 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:53:32 Fare: i've got some untested xcvb patches here: http://dwim.hu/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=xcvb;a=summary 21:53:47 beach: Anh thich hoc tieng viet khong? 21:54:04 Fare: please note that our cgi stuff has an off-by-one bug, so the url's need a little editing when you go on from that page... 21:54:31 Fare: not really hasty/useful patches, but we managed to have conflicts already... :) 21:54:39 *attila_lendvai* heads bedwards 21:55:37 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-250.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:56:03 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-250.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined 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has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:10:22 serichsen: I think there is a Locatives library for CL that might help you 22:11:24 rahuuuuuuul 22:11:25 serichsen: basically, you need to create a closure around the setf of the place you want to set, letting the new value get passed into the closure 22:11:30 Xaaaaaaaaach 22:11:59 Do you go to lispnyc meetings? 22:12:14 -!- drgnvale [n=acristin@209.16.73.144] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:12:50 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:13:17 yes 22:13:21 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:05 Is there a cl implementation of pipe-based programming, the unix shell style/paradigm? 22:15:28 meingbg: i don't think there's one for cl. scsh is scheme-based. 22:15:33 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 22:16:15 Xach: I didn't ask for a shell. 22:16:22 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:16:58 scsh is not an interactive shell 22:16:59 meingbg: Right. And you didn't ask for something scheme-based. But scsh is a programming environment that is in the Lisp family that supports complex pipelines. 22:17:16 at least not one you'd want to use 22:17:40 bgs100 [n=ian@h200.16.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:47 but if you want a more smart-aleck answer, funcall is the equivalent of unix's pipe 22:18:56 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:18:56 rahul: thanks, I have a solution now, but I'll look into that 22:19:08 Xach: Perhaps it's worth looking into while implementing it myself. 22:20:09 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:20:45 Krystof: How? 22:21:16 meingbg: do you mean pipe-based as in able to communicate with unix programs or pipe-based within a lisp environment? 22:21:30 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:21:45 pipes take input and produce output. functions take arguments and produce values 22:21:49 meingbg: and are you really that interested in limiting yourself to character/byte streams? 22:22:02 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 22:22:23 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 22:22:51 rahul: Within the environment. I want to be able to connect instances of closure-ish-threads-orthelike that can send 0 or more information packets to each other whenever they feel like it. An information packet would be a lisp object, not a character. 22:22:53 -!- francogrex [n=user@47.141-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:23:30 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:23:30 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-250.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:23:48 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-250.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:24:32 meingbg: why not just use a work queue? 22:25:23 meingbg: is the goal to create a producer/consumer design pattern or to add parallelism? 22:27:07 meingbg: \\\ 22:27:21 sorry. toddlertype(tm) 22:27:37 awww how cute 22:27:40 heh 22:29:08 good thing hands too small for ctl alt del 22:29:25 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 22:29:32 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 22:29:54 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:29:55 wgl: Don't think so. Most have two hands. I've seen it happen. 22:31:13 rahul: Parallelism is not the goal, but a possible by-product. 22:31:48 just go functional 22:32:03 and implement 'lazy' sequences 22:32:11 sounds a bit like the actor model, actually 22:32:24 that's the other option 22:33:15 Some discuss weather the functional or the imperative is the "natural" way of thinking. I believe that my, personal, natural way of thinking would be work-flow oriented, that is pipe-based. 22:33:35 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:33:36 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-250.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:33:38 "whether" 22:33:53 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-250.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:33:54 something like Cells might actually be ideal for you 22:33:59 serichsen: thx, whether makes more sense;-) 22:34:02 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 22:34:11 although kenny's implementation and interface leave much to be desired 22:35:37 I think that this is an interesting topic, and that something in that direction will play a big role in future architectures 22:35:47 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 22:35:51 however, I'll have to leave it for now, and go to bed :) 22:36:05 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 22:36:05 good night 22:36:07 serichsen: wait 22:36:13 ? 22:36:25 serichsen: where can I find something to read about this "actor" model? 22:36:33 serichsen: just lmgtfy? 22:37:17 meingbg: that would be my idea, yes. I think that ruby uses it. 22:37:17 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:37:38 guaqua: Lazy sequences is one thing I've been considering. 22:37:42 serichsen: ok, thx. 22:37:53 if youre talking about packet sending you should look up erlang ... 22:38:28 Dawgmatix__: That's right, should've thought of that. 22:39:10 all sorts of laziness is central in haskell. lately also python has added support for all sorts of generators 22:39:26 good night 22:39:33 rahul: What about these "Cells"? 22:39:34 -!- serichsen [n=user@77.6.221.253] has quit ["thx-1138"] 22:39:36 serichsen: goodnight. 22:40:03 lets not forget clojure ;) 22:40:46 clojure will get him what he's asking, but I think linear constraints is what he wants 22:43:45 rahul: "linear constraints"? 22:44:05 yeah, c = a + b 22:44:05 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-250.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:44:09 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:44:15 and then when a changes, you change c 22:44:30 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-250.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:44:54 konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 22:45:02 (defvar *c* (+ *a* *b*)) 22:45:16 that would indeed be nice :) 22:45:27 sometimes what you mean is that you want to have *c* _maintained_ to be that value 22:45:34 I think I already wrote something that does this 22:45:41 though couldnt c just be defined as a closure that operates on a and b ? 22:45:49 rahul: Oh, if that's what Cells does, I've seen it. I just don't see how that fits with my explanation of what I want? 22:45:55 Dawgmatix__: that would be the wrong way 22:46:07 rahul - could you explain why ? 22:46:10 Dawgmatix__: what if the computation is an integral or something like that? 22:46:30 Dawgmatix__: you want to store values and compute lazily, most of the time 22:46:53 i see. 22:47:10 meingbg: it generalizes the concept of the inputs and outputs of your stream... the values of *a* and *b* could be two different streams 22:47:13 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-178-166.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:47:39 meingbg: and when new values come down the stream, *c* is recomputed (that's an eager implementation of linear constraints) 22:48:37 hi 22:48:52 rahul: I believe I will have side-effects in the "computation", so eager would probably be better than lazy in my case. 22:49:19 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-175-47.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 22:49:37 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177126115.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 22:51:26 meingbg: well, only side-effects that result in I/O matter if you use this model throughout your program 22:51:56 it becomes pretty close to haskell eventually 22:54:24 rahul: It does. I guess I could have any output streams pull from a lazy sequence. That way I could go completely functional if so be. 22:56:56 ziga`` [n=user@BSN-142-52-164.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:32 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:57:36 right, but it needs to pull "when it needs to", which is the haskell model... I guess the compiler figures out what inputs relate to what outputs and automatically trigger a new value from the output when an input it depends on changes 22:57:48 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:58:50 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:59:01 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:05 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:00:55 beelzebug [n=beelzebu@24-107-56-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:05:02 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-250.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:05:36 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-250.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:05:57 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:06:06 -!- ans [n=ans@user82.c3.sevnica.kabelnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:09:04 anyone at the lisp meeting? 23:11:57 -!- ziga` [n=user@BSN-142-104-216.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:13:41 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:16:17 I assume fare is 23:16:19 :) 23:17:25 just read in the ccl forums - a new version of ccl is announced (1.4) 23:18:01 aja_ [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:26 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:20:20 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-90974.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:20:22 -!- tombom [n=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:20:33 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:20:43 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 23:21:23 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-90974.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 23:22:09 -!- rahul changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.0.32, trivial-features 0.6, CMUCL 20a, CCL 1.4 23:22:16 uh which CCL, btw? 23:22:21 corman or clozure? 23:22:26 clozure 23:22:37 -!- rahul changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.0.32, trivial-features 0.6, CMUCL 20a, Clozure CL 1.4 23:24:36 Krystof: As of your "smart-aleck" answer, it's actually a very probable approach. A few macros around funcall. 23:24:36 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:25:20 stratos1 [n=user1@79.97.221.72] has joined #lisp 23:27:43 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:28:30 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 23:29:22 quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has joined #lisp 23:32:04 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:32:18 hello why don't you chat before leaving? 23:32:58 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-164.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:35:46 -!- aja_ [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:36:12 -!- Dawgmatix__ [n=dman@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:36:32 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:41 levy annotated #89511 "partial evaluating make-instance" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89511#5 23:40:54 meingbg: yeah, formulate is in CVS as a module under the rjain-utils project on cl.net 23:41:23 it's not optimized at all, but I think it works 23:41:26 :) 23:44:26 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:45:47 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:46:27 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:50 aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 23:47:16 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:29 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-112.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:47:51 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-250.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:47:56 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-112.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:48:12 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-250.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:50:06 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.138.150] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:50:48 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-250.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:51:11 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-250.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:52:30 -!- stratos1 [n=user1@79.97.221.72] has left #lisp 23:53:21 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-98-210-236-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:53:25 peddie [n=peddie@c-98-210-236-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:04 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 23:55:06 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 23:56:10 -!- mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6DF45.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:57:30 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.54.174] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:58:32 can we get a dylan? 23:59:38 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]