00:00:07 Sikander: if only I would look up and see the dictionary prompts before i hit enter...;) 00:00:46 D'oh, you have a spell checker in your irc client?! 00:01:19 Sikander: who doesn't ? 00:01:25 hey but I installed paredit and yasnippets on emacs this week ..I am learning ...lol 00:02:18 Sikander: yes I do ...but I tend to disagree with it ... lol 00:02:43 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:02:51 I generally hate those spellchecker things. 00:03:11 Does xchat even have such a feature? 00:03:20 *Sikander* looks around in menus he's never looked at 00:03:53 *Harag* thinks notepad is a great editor , mostly because it lets me do what I want..now if I could master vi I would feel complete 00:04:06 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:06:18 Sikander: not by itselfe, but because gtk+ has spell checking in all text widgets 00:06:21 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:06:43 fe[nl]ix: I must have turned it off or something. Good, I hate all that stuff. 00:07:05 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:16 gonzojive_ [n=red@DNab4221db.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 00:07:43 fe[nl]ix: Hum, eix gtk+ doesn't show anything that could be interpreted as "turning on" or "off" such a feature. 00:08:21 Sikander: it's in app-text/gtkspell 00:08:33 Harag: But vi doesn't let you do IRC, spell checking and abbrevs at the same time, does it? 00:09:03 beach: I'm pretty sure you could do that in vim, if you really wanted to ;) 00:09:18 Good to hear. 00:09:20 fe[nl]ix: Great, I don't have it! Wooo! 00:09:30 might not be as easy as in emacs, but probably possible 00:09:31 that spelll checker has issues with proper english or the little I know about english spelling so I use google to correct my spelling..then again I cant spell ..wher I come from I got jacks every time I did a spelling test 00:09:35 koollman: tic would know! 00:09:47 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:09:49 beach: I still want to write a common lisp vi clone. Then us vi users can do all that emacs users can! 00:09:58 beach: Almost have the ed clone working 00:10:09 its my typing that realy sux 00:10:23 beach: I know of vimirc, I know there are extentions for spell checking and abbrevs. it's the 'at the same time' I'm can't say for sure :) 00:10:29 minion: memo for _3b: seems the main loop hackery doesn't work anymore in 10.6. For now, I'm just using the real main thread on SBCL. 00:10:30 Sikander: I wrote flexichain to be a general-purpose editable sequence. 00:10:32 Remembered. I'll tell _3b when he/she/it next speaks. 00:10:39 -!- literal [n=hinrik@u.nix.is] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:10:44 literal [n=hinrik@u.nix.is] has joined #lisp 00:10:57 beach: I saw that. How to use it? I still don't understand it. Is there more info on it somewhere? 00:11:17 -!- ericjames [n=ericjeld@205.149.71.156] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:11:24 Sikander: As I recall, the documentation is complete. 00:11:32 Sikander: actually I was wrong, xchat has a "spell" use flag 00:11:37 lol 00:11:45 Sikander: You will need an editable sequence for the buffer. 00:11:53 beach: I have to admit, for the ed clone, I'm just using normal lists. No premature optimisations! I want to replace the current buffer (the list) with flexichain 00:11:59 complete lisp documentation ...dont scare me 00:12:22 beach: Yeah, maybe I just don't understand the docs. I suck at that. I need more time... 00:12:35 *Sikander* requests the Gods for more time. 00:12:41 Sikander: A list of characters? I suppse that might work up to a certain size. 00:12:44 So much to do, so little time 00:12:53 Indeed! 00:12:56 beach: Since ed is line-oriented, it's a list of lines 00:13:14 Eventually ed -> ex -> vi 00:13:31 Sikander: A lot of work! Good luck! 00:13:39 and that's why I want the mcclim ncurses backend: vi in both curses and in X 00:13:43 woo 00:13:59 Well, I only need a core. Other people should write the scripts! 00:14:02 heheh 00:14:11 A mcclim ncurses would be fantastic! 00:14:13 Sikander: I read some interesting aritcles about how new tech will increase our life span soon ..so carefull for what u ask for 00:14:14 nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 00:14:15 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@DNab4221db.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 00:14:26 Harag: I need that tech NOW! 00:14:44 beach: Yeah, that's gonna take some time, though... 00:15:23 beach: If you promise to help me sort out the with-room-for-graphics clipping problem (for an unrelated project), I promise to work on the ncurses backend 00:15:24 Sikander: relatively easy. Start with Xof's null backend, and add stuff for the text. 00:15:38 Hmm, OK. 00:15:53 Woo 00:15:54 I need an email reminder though. 00:16:04 I'll send one to devel, ok? 00:16:11 Fine! 00:16:19 it used to be government policy to not have people living too long so wonder if they will let that new tech out 00:16:29 ... 00:16:37 Guthur: Are you wearing a tin foil hat now? 00:16:54 *beach* goes to bed as it is *way* past his bedtime. 00:17:00 goodnight 00:17:01 hhh ya it was a long time ago, i'm sure they don't do that any more 00:17:03 goodnight beach ! 00:17:05 (to beach) 00:19:17 Sikander: I dont want the life extending tech now I want the wet ware interfaces ..that would solve my typing issues ..;) It took me 5 times looking at the spelling promts to get this right and the checker still says I spelled "times" wrong) 00:19:31 night beach 00:20:32 Harag: Maybe you should put the language to english? ;) 00:20:46 bwhahaha 00:21:11 -!- cmeme [n=cmeme@boa.b9.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:21:43 well there is english, then there is American and the there is South African english...And english is my second language 00:21:55 so witch setting would work? 00:22:01 which 00:22:19 see ... i beat the spell checker 00:22:26 heheh 00:22:36 well in one of those englishes at least 00:23:26 I vote for English. American just isn't a language. I mean, aluminium without an i?! Where's the u in colour?! 00:23:31 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:23:54 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:25 sush...I can live with the rest but the "color" thing kills me...to much web dev 00:24:46 I always put the u in aswell 00:25:29 metasyntax` [n=taylor@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:57 Ah, well, time for me to leave this place and watch the inside of my eyes for a few hours. 00:26:01 goodnight! 00:26:05 When are symbols interned? By the reader? 00:26:12 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:26:22 hay all, if I do a (car lst) and expecting an atom, is there a way I can compare that atom to a symbol say with a cond (( * (car list).... where I expect a * to come back? 00:26:28 actually ..even though I cant spell i did better at english at school and dual lingual exams in english than in my native lang 00:28:05 -!- gaze_ [n=gaze@169.231.36.86] has quit [] 00:28:29 shadowhywind: Is your question pertaining to succinctness? 00:28:43 quidnunc: I am a newby but i would guess it depends on when you used the reader...I would suspect that a macro woudl enter it at compile time..even thow it might mangle it 00:28:47 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 00:29:09 quidnunc: huh? 00:29:33 shadowhywind: Do you know how to do it but want to know if it can be done using a certain concise syntax? 00:30:16 no I don't know how. I am thinking something on the lines of (eq * (car lst)) 00:30:19 shadowhywind: are you just looking for QUOTE? I actually have no clue what you're asking exactly. 00:30:29 '* => * 00:30:39 hehe 00:30:50 minion: memo for _3b: gbyers confirmed that their GLUT trick stopped working on 10.6 for them too. Not sure what you'll have to do on CCL, but we can just run stuff in the main thread on SBCL. 00:30:51 Remembered. I'll tell _3b when he/she/it next speaks. 00:31:03 rrice1 [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:13 basically I am reading in a list again, if the first atom of the list = * I want to do something 00:31:13 shadowhywind: cl-cookbooks has lots of stuff about going from symbols to strings and strings to symbols ..that might help 00:31:16 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:31:29 shadowhywind: use quote 00:31:33 -!- rrice1 [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:31:44 Harag: the CL cookbook is a bit out-of-date, I think 00:32:01 (of course, there's no reason not to update it...) 00:32:50 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@80.187.104.162] has joined #lisp 00:33:03 Shamiq [n=Adium@wireless-165-124-117-148.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 00:33:08 hey all 00:33:26 i've got a 4 liner function and a critique of it my instructor posted. 00:33:36 Adlai: oh? I haven't checked in a while, but what bits are out of date? 00:33:48 and i'm not perfectly sure what he means...y'all willing to take a look? 00:33:54 Adlai: its an essencial resource for me out of date or not...the only time I learnt more was when I started contributing to lisp projects ...but that involved reading a lot of source with no explenations 00:34:01 "mk-defsystem is a hot new system definition facility"? 00:34:06 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 00:34:27 Xach: maybe not... I just got the impression that it didn't really deal with "modern" concepts, that it was more about stuff that's better learned by asking people or reading PCL. 00:34:37 Shamiq: Have you considered asking your instructor? 00:34:49 no way i'd get him at this hour... 00:35:15 well, it's here: http://pastebin.ca/1645881 00:35:16 -!- literal [n=hinrik@u.nix.is] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:35:17 Adlai: i remember it as a grab-bag of handy practical tips for stuff you probably know how to do in other languages and want to learn how to do in lisp 00:35:27 literal [n=hinrik@u.nix.is] has joined #lisp 00:35:30 emmy [n=em@cpe-66-65-80-94.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:35:39 Xach: snap 00:35:42 Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 00:36:00 Shamiq: what do you find confusing? 00:36:07 what symbol is he talking about? 00:36:08 minion: tell Shamiq about lisppaste 00:36:09 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 00:36:24 Shamiq: your entire program is made up of symbols. 00:36:30 It taught me a lot about lisp functions I did not know about 00:36:34 Shamiq: you have written COND and T in uppercase. 00:36:43 ah, and that's it? 00:36:51 Yes. 00:37:13 hah -- thanks 00:37:15 Xach: (wrt the cookbook) true, I guess I've just read a lot about CL before I started using it, so the cookbook seemed like old news. 00:37:43 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6EED3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 00:38:09 i write all my lisp in lower case, except globals 00:38:33 Guthur: it's weird to write globals in uppercase in CL. 00:38:52 Xach its ok i only have one 00:38:56 Adlai: it helps to remember the context...it predates PCL and the new wave of CL activity. 00:38:58 Adlai: I read a lot (mostly paul G stuff before) but the cook book for me is practical and lots of times gives me the basic structure of what I need 00:39:18 Xach: yeah. I guess alter my statement: s/outdated/old/ 00:40:15 the only excuse for uppercase symbols is when you let Lisp generate your code 00:40:23 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:33 (or the CAPS LOCK is stuck) 00:41:06 (or the rest of the file is in uppercase, and lowercase would look kind of wimpy) 00:41:13 on an aside (bitch)...if paul did not use the same names for variables as existing lisp functions in his books it would have helped me a lot 00:41:20 or you're writing CLOBOL 00:41:43 Adlai: could i get you to take a look at a few lines of code and tell me what I am doing wrong? 00:42:09 Harag: huh? PG usually does the opposite. He's one of the main reasons you see 'lst' so much in beginners' CL code. 00:42:21 shadowhywind: sure, lisspaste it 00:42:25 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 00:42:26 *lisppaste 00:42:30 *coughs like all my code* 00:43:29 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["leaving"] 00:43:49 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:53 well I dissagree he might not do it often...but I remember one evening of trying to figure out what was going on in his example code that tokk me hours because he was using functin names as vars 00:44:16 then again it was my first exposure to lisp 00:44:26 so I was battling to begin wiht 00:44:45 shadowhywind pasted "lisperrors" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89401 00:45:08 Adlai: I changed the code in two spots to include the quote thought 00:45:10 I am not dissing the man...if it was not for his essays I would never have stumbled on lisp 00:45:15 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 00:45:23 sorry there are 2 versions is what i meant 00:45:43 and I am going trough onlisp at this moment trying to do a idiots guid to onlisp 00:45:51 Adlai: shadowhywind pasted "lisperrors" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89401 00:45:59 *Adlai`* checks logs 00:46:03 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:46:09 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 00:47:48 shadowhywind: firstly, you want (eq '* foo) 00:48:01 (eq '* (car '(* 1 2))) => T 00:48:26 'anything === (quote anything) 00:48:49 Adlai: hehe thanks 00:49:02 there's also an issue of idiomatic code, though... your style isn't great :\ 00:49:04 (print ('(*)) 00:49:05 i just needed to combine what I had, and it would have worked.. 00:49:07 is wrong 00:49:19 lispm: yup i just fixed that issue 00:49:22 I suggest using 'list' instead of 'lst', and naming preToin1 differently 00:50:16 Adlai: I agree with the preToin1 (its only a test function and then will rename once it works, but why list instead of lst? 00:50:22 at the very least, avoid camelCase -- pre-to-in1 00:50:30 (whatever pre and in1 are) 00:50:40 just moving of a language that I couldn't use list so had to use lst 00:50:55 its going to be a prefix to infix function 00:51:28 I think it's more readable 00:51:44 Using real words makes it faster to read. 00:51:55 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:52:05 true 00:52:05 There's a good (and short) guide on naming functions. Let me dig it up. 00:52:06 There's not much difference between lst and fzl, really. 00:52:21 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@76.228.82.245] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:52:42 lst always makes it look like Scheme code, worth to avoid that 00:53:01 normally I am good on the naming functions, but like I said, the last language I was using (ml/sml) i couldn't use list, so i have to get out of that habbit 00:53:25 Adlai: for some one that comes from a camel case world do u know how it feals to b told the first time the camel-case is actually not aplicable...lol 00:53:45 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 00:54:11 Is it similar to being told that you are illiterate? 00:54:33 worse 00:54:57 shadowhywind: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/names.html 00:55:22 Harag: it should feel liberating! 00:55:34 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-240-8.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 00:55:56 -!- emmy [n=em@cpe-66-65-80-94.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:56:00 its being told you are illiterate when you are seen as a visionary in you own wolrd for actually applying standars 00:56:18 Harag: seeing as you're reading pg right now, you might want to look at http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html 00:56:38 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:56:39 *Harag* reads 00:56:45 hey, that's the class i'm currently in! 00:56:47 that's for a different book of his, but the same ideas apply 00:57:23 -!- quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:57:30 Shamiq: enjoy, the professor seems to know his stuff :) 00:57:45 yea, he's pretty awesome 00:58:22 so when i do (defun foo (x) (expr) (expr) (expr)) 00:58:30 it'll eval those in order, right? 00:58:46 yep, and return the values of the last (expr) 00:58:58 interesting. 10.5 thinks it's 10.0.0. 00:59:01 *10.6 00:59:19 pkhuong: no, you're interpreting the digits wrong 00:59:23 subtract 4 00:59:52 "and, for the most part, variable and function names are clear " 00:59:52 10.4 -> 8.x.x, 10.5 -> 9.x.x, 10.6 -> 10.x.x 00:59:53 mle: ah, that's what that code was doing (: 01:00:04 heh 01:00:06 lso i was right 01:00:13 lol 01:00:48 eish I need to go to bed my typing is worse than usual... 01:01:29 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:39 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:04:11 *lispm* somehow does not like building Lisp software with make 01:04:12 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-dceckvfevelowixo] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:04:13 a quick question ...except for those of you in the accedemics how mutch of your bread and butter code do u put under open source 01:04:39 Harag: Three pounds of flax. 01:05:03 never its all mine i tell mine muhahah 01:05:16 how much is that in meat ...relational wise ...lets ay from a cow 01:05:24 actually you wouldn't want it and i'm in academia so don't count 01:05:28 lol @ Guthur 01:06:36 pkhuong: so it's 10.6 related then ? 01:06:39 *Guthur* huddles over counting his parentheses 01:06:42 my precious 01:06:55 if the main loop stuff don't work on ccl i guess it is 01:07:03 i think its getting late for me to 01:07:06 I have a conundrum I use all open source...but I have hit a niche market that will get me off my feet financialy...but I feel guilty for not releasing the code 01:07:32 Harag: are you required to keep it closed source? 01:07:39 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:07:54 keep in mind that releasing the source doesn't mean you can't still sell the app 01:08:18 for example, Corman CL is distributed together with the entire source, to everything. 01:08:24 adlai how many commercial OSS is there, i am generally curious 01:08:33 Adlai: no ..but finacialy speaking it would hurt ...not that any competoter in sa knwos how to use lisp...but still teh risk is there 01:08:36 genuinely* 01:09:27 xristos: yup. gbyers confirmed that 10.6 seems to have inserted additional checks. 01:09:34 Harag: would it necessarily hurt? You still own copyright on the code, and can choose whatever license you want (although some people might then say that it's not really "open source" code) 01:10:16 Guthur: I think more common is that source is distributed with the app -- for example, http://piano.aero is like this. 01:11:14 Adlai: let me put it to you this way it would take me about 8 months (of water and bread) to save up to buy a linux version of lispworks ...any advantage to a competitor would kill me 01:11:27 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 01:11:50 If you are poor, then perhaps you shouldn't do open source. 01:12:18 if I am poor open source is all I can afford to use 01:12:49 I live in a third world country 01:12:50 Harag: Or maybe you're too poor to be stingy. 01:12:58 impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313971.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:12:58 lol 01:13:52 Harag: you don't have to create open-source products if you use open-source tools 01:14:13 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:14:21 some open-source licenses require that, while others don't. 01:14:49 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81.226.253.54] has quit [Client Quit] 01:14:54 actually let me re-phrase the question...I you wanted to compete with some one would you try and hack there open sourece (not maybe clean source) to compete or just write your own? 01:15:26 xristos: I'm fairly certain I don't like the interrupt-thread-based design... At least offer the option to take the thread over and use simple locks & variables? 01:15:54 my experience is that I would just rather write my own code because the learning curve for some one elses code is big 01:15:59 Harag: if they're code was licensed in a certain way, it would be illegal to "hack" it to compete with them. 01:16:21 Harag, software is an important part of your business but it is not your entire business. 01:16:33 Adlai: but I want to give back to the comunity 01:16:43 really, look into licenses. You can license something as "read only" for educational and non-profit use, so that it's still illegal to take that code and use it in a competing app. 01:16:48 pkhuong: that's an option too if the current design sticks 01:17:00 but i don't think it will as the glut thread only exists because of ccl 01:17:19 ayrnieu: I program from 7am to 2 am the next morning every day software is my only business 01:17:26 also, you could split up your product into libraries and an app which uses them 01:17:28 Look: nobody has created a competitor to Wikipedia, even with the accessible software. It would also not help you to have all of Amazon's or Google's source. 01:18:12 then release the libraries under an open license (anything from GPL to MIT), but keep the actual app that uses them proprietary. 01:18:16 Harag - well, good luck selling it. 01:18:23 ayrnieu: there are Wikipedia competitiors, just not particularly great ones 01:18:24 xristos: not in SBCL? We still need to execute the glut loop in the main thread. 01:18:30 i have a vague memory of seeing a way of storing class data, is it possible? 01:18:39 pkhuong: well the user can do that 01:18:48 no need to complicate the library 01:18:52 Citizidieum is OK but will always be too small 01:19:01 Guthur: :allocation :class slot definition args 01:19:03 Harag: for example, look at the dwim.hu guys -- they're producing lots of open-source libraries, and then using them in their own product 01:19:05 actually i suspect you need to execute everything in the main thread in SL 01:19:13 everything glut related that is 01:19:23 xristos: sounds likely. 01:19:32 so either we have to wrap every glut call to account for that so that you can work from slime 01:19:39 Even loading the libraries from another thread fails. 01:19:40 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:19:51 or abandon this, tell the user to make sure to start it from initial thread 01:20:01 so if you want to work from slime you start your program and start swank listener 01:20:03 then connect from slime 01:20:10 Adlai - and the business-side of CPAN is "wait, you're saying that other people will test this for us? And send in improvements?" 01:20:18 or just run from *inferior-lisp*... 01:20:20 antifuchs cheers 01:20:54 or that 01:21:06 ayrnieu: I'm completely unfamiliar with perl and CPAN, so I can't tell what you're saying. 01:21:08 the point being we try to keep this thread mess out of cl-opengl 01:21:22 i don't know what is going to happen with ccl though 01:22:05 all I know about perl is that if you choose to use perl and its regex, you'll have three problems. 01:22:23 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-240-8.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:22:43 Thanx for the input ...I agree its not that easy to use some one elses code unless it was designed to be reused and wll documented...I will release what id generic and contribute personally to y favourate projects that should balance it 01:23:29 iterating through a list -- do y'all use "loop" or is something else preferred? 01:23:47 (counting occurrences of 'a) 01:23:57 don't use LOOP for that 01:23:58 clhs count 01:24:13 dolist for generic iteration 01:24:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_countc.htm 01:24:29 less verbose than loop 01:24:29 now i only have to convince my biusiness partners ...lol 01:25:00 (count 'a '(a man a plan a canal panama)) => 3 01:25:31 ...def less verbose than what i've got :) 01:26:32 I live in africa and what the rest of the world thinks is a binding licence or agreement is not that simple to protect over here 01:26:55 Harag: where's your market? 01:27:19 quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has joined #lisp 01:27:59 south africa...goverment stuff at the moment..like i said i hit a niche market ...I finally got lucky 01:28:16 ah, oo 01:28:34 framework == okay 01:28:35 How do I intern the symbols in a form into a specific package? 01:28:44 clhs intern 01:28:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm 01:28:53 but I am not what you would call the preferred skin colour over here so protecting what I have is importent 01:29:08 i get what you're saying 01:29:30 Harag: ok, so I recommend that you separate out the "libraries" in your app, but keep the app itself closed-source. 01:29:53 agreed thanx 01:30:01 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-161-187.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:03 it has been bothering me 01:30:35 I don't want to modify the form so I guess I have to traverse the tree and intern each symbol one at a time? 01:31:19 Is there something that will map over the form, like map-tree or somesuch? 01:32:02 there's flatten, which probably comes third after factorial and fibonacci as the most-crappily-reimplemented CL function. 01:32:36 africa is wonderfull but cruel place to do business, but if you are thining about coming to the soccer world cup ...contact me .. I can show you the world like you have never seen ;) 01:32:37 I don't want to flatten, I want to preserve the tree-structure 01:33:07 flatten can be non-destructive 01:33:14 and you can write map-tree too, if you want 01:33:20 quidnunc - if you flatten to cons cells, instead of to atoms. 01:34:02 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:34:23 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-140-191-199.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 01:34:26 i have one more question..of the people here how many of you are commercial and not accademic? 01:35:15 the students asking questions asre commercial even if they dont kow it yet 01:35:22 Adlai, ayrnieu: Alright, thanks 01:35:25 http://paste.lisp.org/display/76451 is a-- what happened to paste.lisp.org's links to the channel logs? 01:35:38 Harag: you live in johanesburg ? 01:35:51 yes 01:35:56 midrand 01:36:34 *Adlai* is neither 01:36:37 You don't sleep? 01:36:41 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:36:52 after years I finally had enough money to tell my clients lisp is the way or go away and I amloving it 01:37:17 -!- mle [n=emily@kuu.accela.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:37:51 sleep comes to me when I dont have questions ;) 01:37:52 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:38:25 xristos: and you? 01:39:12 europe 01:39:21 guy i know used to live in sandton 01:39:31 k similair time lines 01:39:36 he split due to crime 01:39:48 lol crime is africa 01:41:38 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:42:02 but there is nothing like a "flexible" emerging economy...the opportunities are limitless 01:42:06 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 01:42:31 Instead of traversing the form can I somehow read the list with *package* rebound? 01:42:37 s/form/list 01:42:58 if he lived in santon it says he had enough money tom move on 01:43:25 I am not dissing him or his choice..it is just a reality 01:43:29 quidnunc: sure, just rebind *package* 01:44:02 Adlai: But you can't 'read' lists right? Only strings. Is there something that reads lists? 01:44:19 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:44:21 ah, that could be a problem. Why don't you just use INTERN? 01:44:37 I specbotted it earlier, don't make me do it again. 01:44:45 -!- ziga`` [n=user@BSN-143-132-7.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:44:51 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:45:03 or convert to to string and read 01:45:05 Adlai: Thanks, I will. I was just looking for something a bit cleaner. 01:45:09 quidnunc - the problem with your whole line of thought is this syntax: (list 'a 'b 'foo::bar) 01:45:10 uglu but doable 01:45:43 ayrnieu: My symbols are all unqualified. 01:45:48 quidnunc: how is (intern symbol package) unclea{n,r} ? 01:45:56 OK. 01:47:01 Adlai: I have to traverse the tree. Not very complicated admittedly but certainly it would have been trivial to rebind package and then read. 01:47:02 -!- slava [n=slava@69.93.127.154] has left #lisp 01:47:16 ayrnieu: Thanks for the heads up though 01:47:29 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 01:47:33 I'd call that an ugly solution... 01:47:37 Adlai: Anyway, it looks like there is no alternative so I will use intern. Thanks for the help. 01:47:52 (do-tree (symbol tree) (intern symbol package)) 01:49:33 -!- roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 01:51:12 -!- aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:51:48 commenting with ";" or ";;"? 01:52:46 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:52:55 clhs 2.4.4.2 01:52:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ddb.htm 01:53:44 night pppls 01:53:48 ciao 01:53:50 have agood one 01:53:57 goodnight Harag 01:54:02 good luck with your app 01:54:09 thanx 01:54:17 -!- Harag [n=phil@iburst-41-213-24-102.iburst.co.za] has left #lisp 01:54:17 Shamiq: check out that CLHS link. 01:54:19 Adlai: Based on our discourse this evening, you're recommending I just read over the hyperspec? 01:54:41 oh, it's helpful, but it's a bit much to read in one sitting... 01:54:56 specifically regarding comments, look at that link 01:55:02 yea, i'm at it. 01:55:50 and in general, download a copy and set up some easy way to browse it, then look for stuff if some code ever seems kludgy. Also, just ask in here, people will point you to the appropriate functions (or libraries) 01:56:10 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:59:14 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E687.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:01:42 brb 02:01:43 -!- Shamiq [n=Adium@wireless-165-124-117-148.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:03:33 Is there a way to search the hyperspec from the repl? At least keywords? 02:03:42 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:04:02 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has left #lisp 02:05:31 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:05:54 pr_ [n=pr@p579CAA1E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:00 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:07:07 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 02:08:18 hadronzoo [n=user@209.30.40.228] has joined #lisp 02:08:27 clisp hooks describe to lookup the definitions from the hyperspec. If that's what you mean. 02:09:05 rtoym: No, I was asking search when you don't know the symbol name to lookup 02:09:34 clojure has something like "find-doc" 02:09:56 Well, apropos can give you hints if you have some idea of what it might be named. 02:10:27 zeroish` [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 02:10:48 emacsphan [n=user@134.215.217.86] has joined #lisp 02:11:09 rtoym: Yeah that's something. Thanks 02:11:24 quidnunc: you could theoretically hack something up with DOCUMENTATION, DO-ALL-SYMBOLS, and SEARCH 02:11:32 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:11:35 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 02:11:52 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:12:05 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:02 -!- quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has quit ["sleep"] 02:13:18 Adlai, that's exactly what apropos does. 02:13:30 deepfire: no, apropos uses symbol-name 02:13:41 I'm talking about searching the documentation strings. 02:15:00 do-external-symbols might be a cleaner way to get acquinted with a library; do-all-symbols return internal symbols as well 02:15:39 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:44 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:15:58 quidnunc might also want to use a permuted index for the hyperspec; franz' version has it 02:16:31 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 02:17:03 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:18:05 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [No route to host] 02:18:10 -!- nipra [n=nipra@117.195.104.16] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:19:28 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.196] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:19:34 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.139] has joined #lisp 02:20:41 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:20:59 borism_ [n=boris@195.50.197.221] has joined #lisp 02:24:07 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:25:11 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:25:50 -!- borism [n=boris@195.50.197.221] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:28:53 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:31:53 Aargh. There's an sse2 bug in cmucl somewhere. 02:32:31 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:32:36 rtoym: mm... :\ what's the symptom? 02:33:13 Totally wrong result. A test case from maxima fails with sse2, but passes on sparc. 02:33:14 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.220.241] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 02:34:00 I should try an x87 build to check. 02:34:11 rtoym: can you paste the test case for me to try here? (: 02:34:40 Uh, not really. At least not yet. I need to isolate the case a little before I can do that. 02:34:48 sure, thanks (: 02:34:50 Wescotte [n=WuzzleWa@75-9-90-101.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:20 -!- Wescotte [n=WuzzleWa@75-9-90-101.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 02:36:16 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:36:25 mncaudill [n=nolan@67-207-138-6.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:32 emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:03 -!- emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:37:19 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 02:38:32 Hmm. Trace also seems to print complex double-floats with real and imaginary parts swapped. Ugh. 02:40:07 Yep, definitely a bug in sse2. Works fine with x87. 02:40:26 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:41:34 I was wondering does anyone have any good links for lisp and binary tree traversals? 02:42:00 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-69-181-124-97.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:42:34 -!- emacsphan [n=user@134.215.217.86] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:42:51 rtoym: ouch, bad one. I think we're safe here. 02:43:31 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 02:43:43 pkhuong: Shouldn't be too hard to find. I hope. 02:44:23 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 02:44:25 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:44:27 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 02:44:50 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:44:56 -!- mncaudill [n=nolan@67-207-138-6.slicehost.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:45:27 troussan` [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:52 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-211-174.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:39 gaze [n=gaze@ResNet-36-86.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 02:46:58 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 02:47:04 jahmarley [n=jahmarle@88.238.205.117] has joined #lisp 02:47:05 shadowhywind: Paul Graham's "ANSI Common Lisp" has an implementation. It's pretty straightforward, really. 02:47:38 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 02:47:45 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:48:25 shadowhywind: http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/paulgraham/acl2.lisp somewhere in there 02:49:35 shadowhywind: http://www.google.com/codesearch/p?hl=en&sa=N&cd=1&ct=rc#pl00jKbuf54/cl-aima-1.0.4/utilities/binary-tree.lisp&q=binary-tree%20lang:lisp 02:50:28 thanks! 02:50:30 how can i run an external program from sbcl? for example, x program takes y file as ts only argument like "x y", i mean i know that i must use sb-ext:run-program but i couldn't understand the manual exactly 02:51:06 (sb-ext:run-program "x" '("y") :search t) ; pretty straightforward 02:51:25 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:52:19 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has quit [Client Quit] 02:52:27 stassats: :) thanks 02:53:26 shadowhywind: those are complex examples; you can implement binary trees with with simple constructs; defun, cond, list, setf, car, and cdr. 02:53:49 jahmarley: use trivial-shell instead 02:54:14 so you don't have to keep changing your code whenever you change an implementation or environment 02:55:03 -!- troussan` [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:55:09 *stassats* uses run-program directly, it's too trivial 02:56:10 fusss: thanks, i'm googling it right now 02:56:40 minion: trivial-shell 02:56:41 trivial-shell: Trivial shell is a simple platform independent interface to the underlying Operating System. http://www.cliki.net/trivial-shell 02:56:48 stassats: using stuff like ffmpeg and imagemagick where you map users "input" to multiple commands and command arguments .. then there is the issue of checking for command availability 02:56:51 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:57:39 jahmarley: then it's just as simple as (trivial-shell:shell-command "`ls -al`") 02:57:40 -!- pr_ [n=pr@p579CAA1E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:57:45 you can't ride bicycle to the moon, can you? 02:58:15 not if you're in an space elevator 02:59:33 -!- shadowhywind [n=shadowhy@adsl-76-199-163-42.dsl.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:01:12 anyone know what is the package "ISW"? it's a GUI toolkit for CLISP, and I am sure that's a package nickname 03:02:09 or STDWIN for that matter 03:02:48 gko [n=gko@114-137-29-67.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:56 gko` [n=gko@114-137-29-67.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:58 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.clisp.general/1927 03:04:05 i remember STDWIN from two places; it was the Borland port of its DOS TUI toolkit, BGI to Windows 3.1. And there is another STDWIN, a GUI toolkit for Lisp written by a Berkeley neuroscientist who was also the co-implementer of Logo .. 03:04:21 http://search.gmane.org/?query=stdwin&group=gmane.lisp.clisp.general for more ; there's nothing about ISW 03:05:06 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:05:15 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:06:23 Andy diSessa wrote a gui toolkit called STDWIN in the mid-80s :-) now I remember 03:06:33 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:07:36 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 03:08:06 starseeker_ [n=CY@pool-173-67-56-212.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:12 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:08:41 *starseeker_* sees his last stop in lisp was July 2008 - eeep 03:09:16 starseeker_: welcome back :-) 03:09:16 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-10-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:09:29 fusss: thanks :-) 03:09:45 *starseeker_* notes with some interest the extensive activity on xcvb 03:09:46 and since then you were hacking lisp non-stop? 03:10:07 stassats: Nope, unfortunately - been working on BRL-CAD 03:11:09 got nudged by the planet lisp posting about someone doing a WEB like program in Lisp :-) 03:11:36 Knuth WEB or Berners Lee WEB? 03:11:43 Knuth 03:11:46 pkhuong: Dang. I implemented the complex-double-float + double-float vop incorrectly. It adds the float part to the imaginary part instead of the real part. :-( 03:12:22 Alex Plotnick's CLWEB 03:12:23 rtoym: you have the imaginary in the low slot? 03:12:36 I think so. I need to goo check. 03:12:40 wonder if he knew about axweb 03:12:42 Er, go. 03:12:48 That's a weird design choice. 03:13:29 Yeah, that would be weird. Maybe the real part is in the low half. Can't remember. 03:13:31 minion: memo for froydnj: the rice.edu url is broken. can you move the old stuff to method-combination? 03:13:32 Remembered. I'll tell froydnj when he/she/it next speaks. 03:14:32 pkhuong: Hmm. I was wrong. The real part is in the low half. Now I don't know what's wrong. 03:14:59 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xxlfmxrhcspwphog] has joined #lisp 03:15:42 anybody know if there's any effort ongoing to replace the searchable interface to the irc archives at ircbrowse? 03:16:24 starseeker_: it's pretty neat. it's own output looks nice. 03:16:51 fusss, CLWEB? 03:17:31 -!- gko` [n=gko@114-137-29-67.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:17:40 -!- gko [n=gko@114-137-29-67.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 03:18:07 *starseeker_* 's last major lisp coding was asdf-literate, which was designed to work with axweb: http://www.start.ca/users/wilsons/axweb.pdf 03:19:01 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-10-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:19:35 *starseeker_* wonders now if xcvb-literate would be in order, if it really is the next generation after asdf... 03:21:02 CLWEB seems to use a frobnicated CL:READ. That doesn't sound like the best design choice. 03:22:16 ah, there's the axweb source: http://www.start.ca/users/wilsons/axweb.lisp and http://www.start.ca/users/wilsons/axweb.lisp.pamphlet 03:22:32 *starseeker_* was very impressed with what axweb achieved 03:22:50 pkhuong: yeah, that does sound a bit... odd 03:24:05 redblue [i=star@ppp051.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:25:03 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:25:36 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:26:03 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:30:44 -!- fugue88 [n=dsowen@fugue88.dsl.xmission.com] has left #lisp 03:30:53 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:34:04 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:34:59 pkhuong: movhlps should be able to move a double-float in the high part to the low part of an xmm register, right? 03:35:35 noy between registers, I don't think. 03:36:59 erh, right, it is the reg-reg version. 03:37:16 why do you need that though? 03:38:49 That's how I get the imaginary part of a complex double. 03:38:54 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:39:57 *rtoym* thinks it's time to break out the debugger and watch what happens. 03:40:15 rtoym: that leaves noise in the upper half. unpck{h,l}pd is probably faster once you mask the noise out. 03:41:05 Yeah, I think I clear out the upper part of the dest before doing movhlps. 03:41:13 (xorpd the result out, then unpck) 03:44:17 -!- starseeker_ [n=CY@pool-173-67-56-212.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:45:23 That works too. I did find a few places where I xorpd some temp, but never use the temp. That's stupid. 03:45:42 Anyway, it's getting to late for me to work on this anymore. Gotta go to bed.... 03:47:02 rtoym: I think a previous version used hlps, and unpck proved slightly faster. 03:48:08 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:48:15 quodlibetor [n=user@ool-4570c6ff.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:44 pfeyz [n=user@146.95.65.217] has joined #lisp 03:48:49 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 03:49:45 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-61-208.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:55:24 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:59:10 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@93-82-9-72.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 04:04:10 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 04:06:21 -!- quodlibetor [n=user@ool-4570c6ff.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:06:54 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:07:15 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-238-005.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:05 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:12:35 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:12:45 Shamiq [n=Adium@adsl-68-78-134-142.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:52 baaaah 04:13:08 Adlai: you still in here? 04:13:28 Shamiq: sort of 04:13:44 remember how you helped me with counting a symbol in a flat list earlier? 04:14:01 (count 'a somelist) 04:14:13 yes 04:14:21 apparently, i need to do it with (do ...) 04:14:23 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@88.73.222.52] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:14:24 and i'm totally lost 04:14:58 clhs do 04:14:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_do.htm 04:15:12 and my current code is embarrassingly ugly. 04:15:21 lisppaste! 04:15:50 Shamiq pasted "ugly-notworking" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89408 04:16:39 Shamiq: why a-count ? 04:16:51 also, look up incf 04:17:14 you're also traversing the list MANY times, holy crap. 04:17:53 how's that? 04:18:13 nth is O(n) 04:18:21 oie 04:18:25 and you also run list-length at the start 04:18:31 yea 04:18:35 Shamiq - (do ((list x (cdr x)) ...) ((endp x)) count) ...) 04:18:39 rather than keeping an index, you should keep a cons 04:18:51 ayrnieu: too many parens :) 04:19:09 Shamiq - i.e., process over the list directly rather than care about its length 04:19:16 yeah, bad oh-wait-I-can-do-this edit. 04:19:36 okay, that makes sense to me 04:20:20 -!- ruediger_ [n=ruediger@93-82-9-72.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:20:39 also, there's another problem with your code 04:20:40 'a-count' isn't bound outside of DO 04:21:01 i see 04:21:27 DO establishes bindings like with LET, for each of the iteration variables 04:21:39 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-178-159.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:30:39 egoz_ [n=Egoz@118.96.226.152] has joined #lisp 04:31:33 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.77.72.254] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:40:46 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 04:40:49 what a pleasure win32 ccl is. 04:41:24 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:41:30 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 04:44:51 -!- |coyoes| [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:48:52 nipra [n=nipra@117.195.98.65] has joined #lisp 04:49:23 -!- egoz [n=Egoz@125.166.165.178] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:51:12 jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 04:59:02 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 04:59:56 fusss: good to hear :) 05:00:41 i must be the poster child for abusing windows; the last remaining yobo32 05:01:05 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:02:26 fusss: are you why we can't have nice things? 05:03:01 maus [n=maus@115.74.152.163] has joined #lisp 05:03:31 Ralith: i insist on programming on windows, mainly because i am a weenie, but also because linux irks me 05:03:39 vng [n=demen@115.74.152.163] has joined #lisp 05:03:52 and by windows i mean XP + cygwin + emacs + 4 putty sessions open at all times. 05:04:02 s/cygwin/mingw/ 05:04:20 hello 05:04:24 the horror 05:04:56 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 05:04:58 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:05:34 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:06:51 fusss pasted "google translate rest api in < 20 lines" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89411 05:07:29 change the lang pair from en|it and you got yourself a polyglot minion 05:07:45 fusss: mind if I steal that? 05:08:16 it was pasted to be stolen. now go and finish CL-REST-GOOGLE, clonse Rest::GOOGLE from purl 05:08:40 fgtech^ [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 05:09:02 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:09:03 -!- maus [n=maus@115.74.152.163] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:09:39 -!- fgtech^ is now known as fgtech 05:09:45 maus [n=maus@115.74.152.163] has joined #lisp 05:09:56 pro tip: don't try to spam google with translated documents, specially if you used google translate. setup your own translation process in-house and hit their indices with a fresh new face .. 05:10:47 symbol that needs a use: daftparameter 05:11:31 hehe 05:12:50 defrivolous can be used to define an IR for a deoptimizing compiler phase 05:13:25 -!- vng [n=demen@115.74.152.163] has left #lisp 05:13:43 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:16:08 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:16:29 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:00 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 05:18:48 demen_ [n=demen@115.74.152.163] has joined #lisp 05:19:03 -!- demen_ [n=demen@115.74.152.163] has quit [Client Quit] 05:20:35 demen_ [n=demen@115.74.152.163] has joined #lisp 05:21:25 -!- demen_ [n=demen@115.74.152.163] has quit [Client Quit] 05:22:18 vng [n=demen@115.74.152.163] has joined #lisp 05:22:46 -!- vng [n=demen@115.74.152.163] has quit [Client Quit] 05:24:12 vng [n=vng_@115.74.152.163] has joined #lisp 05:24:14 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313971.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 05:24:36 -!- vng [n=vng_@115.74.152.163] has quit [Client Quit] 05:25:07 vng [n=vng@115.74.152.163] has joined #lisp 05:29:41 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 05:31:46 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:32:41 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:40:40 pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.58.146] has joined #lisp 05:42:57 fiveop [n=fiveop@e179127036.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 05:44:32 -!- Shamiq [n=Adium@adsl-68-78-134-142.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:47:14 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:47:45 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:47:46 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:48:58 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-98-245-87-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:49:48 c|mell [n=cmell@194.106.199.222] has joined #lisp 05:52:32 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:52:35 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 05:53:07 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 05:53:37 notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has joined #lisp 05:58:02 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:58:10 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:04:36 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:05:12 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:05:18 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:05:43 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 06:05:44 fiveop_ [n=fiveop@e179161173.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:08:45 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:11:12 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@194.106.199.222] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:11:47 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:13:12 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:13:41 poet [n=poet@unaffiliated/poet] has joined #lisp 06:14:01 what would I know? 06:14:04 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:40 yes I would. I do spelling by . 06:15:57 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@76.231.47.223] has joined #lisp 06:16:15 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:18:40 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:18:51 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@e179127036.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:20:52 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:21:10 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@76.231.47.223] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"] 06:28:48 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:28:55 http://paste.lisp.org/display/89413 06:29:38 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-67-109-95.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:29:53 i'm ok with the code being deleted; that's the idea .. also, when it is deleted there is no type conflict so i don't see why the 2nd warning comes up 06:29:59 fatalnix1995 [n=Fatalnix@spirit.georgix.info] has joined #lisp 06:30:56 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:30:57 -!- fatalnix1995 [n=Fatalnix@spirit.georgix.info] has quit [Client Quit] 06:31:12 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:31:29 fatalnix1995 [n=Fatalnix@spirit.georgix.info] has joined #lisp 06:32:47 i'm not sure how to deal with this 06:33:04 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:33:46 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-67-109-95.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:33:57 -!- fatalnix1995 [n=Fatalnix@spirit.georgix.info] has quit [Client Quit] 06:33:59 in some cases the typecase form has a lot of cases, so the amount of output generated is huge 06:34:28 fatalnix1995 [n=Fatalnix@spirit.georgix.info] has joined #lisp 06:34:39 ..and ofc. asdf (i think?) stops compilation 06:36:11 copy/paste fail with the eval-when there .. ahwell .. heh .. :) 06:38:26 -!- pfeyz [n=user@146.95.65.217] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:39:35 -!- _YKY_ [i=YKY@119.237.170.117] has left #lisp 06:42:25 -!- pragma_ [n=pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 06:42:48 pragma_ [n=pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has joined #lisp 06:46:27 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:46:55 timchen1` [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has joined #lisp 06:47:58 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:54:28 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:54:58 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 06:56:37 konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 07:03:59 Good morning 07:04:09 morning 07:08:26 *deepfire* spent the night pinning down ioctl() failing when run from dumped image code vs. succeeding in the case of compiled-and-loaded code.. 07:09:01 QinGW3 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:10:12 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:11:04 Of course, in ECL it works just fine, fsr. 07:12:45 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:15:27 unicoder [n=unicoder@ool-44c66f35.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:45 is there a standard way to "quit" in ANSI CL? 07:15:49 Like C's exit() 07:16:52 unicoder: I'd say it happens when you finish executing toplevel code of the whole application, so an easy way would be to somehow force a non-local exit... I don't remember if there was a *standard* function for that (too many implementations?) 07:18:24 hmm, weird 07:19:04 I suppose the "unrecoverable error, quit the program" paradigm should really be implemented by unwinding to the toplevel anyway 07:19:31 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@76.216.21.95] has joined #lisp 07:19:54 unicoder: you could implement a universal method by creating a condition and placing a handler at toplevel I guess 07:20:31 saner method is to just use conditional code to call whatever your implementation provides, I think 07:20:50 Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has joined #lisp 07:22:01 (defpackage #:trivial-quit (:use #:cl) (:export :quit)) (defun quit (&rest ignored) (declare (ignore ignored)) #-sbcl(ext:quit) #+sbcl(sb-ext:quit)) 07:22:40 ayrnieu: you forgot (in-package #:trivial-quit) ;-) 07:23:23 (one day.) 07:24:19 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:25:01 also, I reversed what I'd just decided on. Go ahead and use :trivial-quit :cl , but export #:quit 07:25:52 I'm only just learning lisp 07:26:00 ayrnieu, so I have no idea what you're suggesting :( 07:26:05 -!- QinGW3 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:27:25 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:28:03 unicoder, it isn't standardized. I think (ext:quit) is common, with (sb-ext:quit) for SBCL. 07:28:06 unicoder: basically, it was one-liner defining a new package, trivial-quit, that exports a function quit that might have extra arguments (possibly to accomodate different implementations), which conditionally calls (sb-ext:quit) when ran under sbcl (that's what #+sbcl is for) or (ext:quit) under other implementations (that's #-sbcl) 07:29:24 pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 07:30:06 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:31:41 http://paste.lisp.org/display/89413#1 .. this won't work .. heh 07:32:05 (defpackage :trivial-quit (:use :cl) (:export #:quit) (:nicknames :quit)) (in-package :trivial-quit) (defun quit (&rest ignored) (declare (ignore ignored)) #+clozure(quit) #+sbcl(sb-ext:quit) #-(or sbcl clozure)(ext:quit)) 07:32:26 aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:33:25 ccl has (cl:quit) ? 07:33:26 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:33:58 ayrnieu: yes 07:34:35 I tested that code under three implementations :D 07:35:08 unicoder, http://flownet.com/ron/packages.pdf will tell you more about that #:quit syntax 07:36:28 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:36:33 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 07:37:07 *deepfire* partially undoes cffification of lh-usb, as a last-ditch measure.. 07:37:31 hmm... clozure actually has ccl:quit 07:39:15 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:41:15 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-2.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:41:23 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 07:44:33 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:44:59 pfeyz [n=user@146.95.65.217] has joined #lisp 07:46:03 http://paste.lisp.org/+1WZQ <--- made from boredom, trivial-quit 07:46:49 p_l pasted "trivial-quit :D" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89414 07:47:16 .. nice lag there 07:47:22 -!- aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:48:29 *tic* suddenly understands the last line. it reads "else"! 07:48:37 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-131-56.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:49:29 serichsen [n=svante@hmbg-4d066e04.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:32 good morning 07:49:56 My assessment of morning differs. 07:49:58 hello serichsen 07:50:13 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:50:14 hi beach 07:50:39 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-55-199.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:50:43 -!- beach` is now known as beach 07:51:53 Vonunov: Yours is not good? 07:52:29 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@76.216.21.95] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:52:31 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:52:45 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:52:47 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:37 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:54:57 good morning 07:55:04 hello mvilleneuve 07:57:45 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:00:02 legumbre_ [n=user@190.135.16.50] has joined #lisp 08:01:45 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp051.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:02:00 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-70-41.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:03:10 are you guys sure (quit) isn't in CL? 08:03:20 it's in CMUCL, SBLC, and CLISP, so far 08:04:35 unicoder, (package-use-list (find-package :cl-user)) 08:04:36 unicoder: CLHS doesn't have it 08:04:44 ergo it's not in CL 08:04:45 ah, interesting 08:04:51 ;-) 08:05:10 demmel [n=Adium@188.98.203.107] has joined #lisp 08:05:13 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:05:16 unicoder: in all of those, it's an extra package (usually :ext) 08:05:29 -!- pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:05:53 SBCL has sb-ext:quit, CCL has ccl:quit, ECL (and afaik CMUCL) have (ext:quit) which seems to be common for others as well 08:06:01 pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 08:06:48 unicoder: in fact the first implementation of multi-platform trivial-quit didn't work on CCL because I tried calling (quit) instead of (ccl:quit) 08:06:50 p_l, yea, I'm still trying to figure out why (quit) works if it's really (sb-ext:quit) 08:06:56 does : have some special meaning in CL? 08:08:03 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:08:19 unicoder: it works because SB-EXT is :USEd by COMMON-LISP-USER package declaration 08:08:42 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 08:09:00 if you create a new package that only uses :COMMON-LISP, you'll receive error when you try to run (quit) 08:09:04 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:09:23 ah, interesting; so `:` isn't just another character in a function name 08:09:39 -!- notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:10:19 p_l pasted "(quit) not in :cl package" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89415 08:10:30 hmm, I wonder how I get CMUCLU to treat SIGINT as a "quit the program" message 08:10:41 instead of a "exit to debugger" message 08:11:00 unicoder: you'll have to search for instructions on signal handlers 08:11:21 p_l, sbcl and clisp both have "--no-debug" type options 08:12:47 unicoder: and both exit by crashing if they receive SIGINT without debugger 08:13:08 indeed, that's sort of what I want 08:13:29 signal handlers aren't part of the ANSI spec, are they? 08:13:34 I'd be very surprised 08:13:40 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 08:13:58 unicoder: they aren't, it's OS-specific facility 08:14:03 yea, exactly 08:14:07 http://common-lisp.net/project/cmucl/doc/cmu-user/unix.html#toc235 :) 08:14:18 afk for a bit, many thanks for the help this far 08:14:35 unicoder: SBCL will signal a condition SB-SYS:INTERACTIVE-INTERRUPT on SIGINT 08:15:23 redblue [i=star@ppp013.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 08:18:01 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:18:22 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:19:05 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-230-194.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 08:19:20 -!- peddie_ [n=peddie@c-98-210-236-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:23:15 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 08:23:27 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:24:48 unicoder, note that under win32 you might be surprised by how Ctrl-C/sigint work. 08:25:12 peddie [n=peddie@c-98-210-236-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:26:09 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-112.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:26:11 I don't remember, either sigint or the console interrupt can't be handled. Probably the latter. 08:26:12 afaik they don't really exist, right? :) 08:26:31 p_l, well, technically the signal exists on win32. 08:27:08 *deepfire* doublechecks 08:27:16 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 08:27:35 -!- pfeyz [n=user@146.95.65.217] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:28:12 I recall someone complaining that win32 doesn't have anything resembling signals and that they have to be emulated with polling... 08:28:50 sbt [n=sigurd_t@62.70.2.252] has joined #lisp 08:30:26 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:31:10 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:31:13 morphling [n=stefan@89.15.141.171] has joined #lisp 08:31:23 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:31:48 yup, no signals at all, SIGINT and SIGBREAK are special cases 08:31:48 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit ["upgrade time; old dying HDD --> new shiny SDD"] 08:32:08 something about CTRL_C_EVENT message 08:32:42 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:33:19 Yeah, seems like that. 08:33:43 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:02 Ok, apparently in recent sbcls sb-kernel:%array-data-vector was replaced by something else. 08:35:57 Or was it.. At least whatever it returns doesn't look like a lisp object. 08:36:59 hmm... seems like porting SBCL to VMS might be easier than to windows - it has async signals :D 08:37:06 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:37:33 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:38:06 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:40:02 (including translation from VMS exceptions to POSIX signals) 08:41:28 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 08:41:33 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:42:17 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:15 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-10-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:46:28 ... huh... signal handling sounds simple in VMS o_O 08:46:43 (I suspect that once you add threads, shit hits the fan) 08:46:45 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 08:46:48 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:48:46 jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.197.84] has joined #lisp 08:49:10 ... there are only global signal handlers in POSIX, right? 08:50:49 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:50:49 -!- jdz_ is now known as jdz 08:51:34 fun. Exception handlers in VMS are part of dynamic environment of current stack frame 08:52:10 xu [n=user@123.120.30.119] has joined #lisp 08:53:28 vroom [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 08:53:54 /nick 08:54:02 -!- vroom [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has left #lisp 08:55:13 jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:55:14 ziga` [n=user@BSN-143-132-7.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 08:57:14 -!- demmel [n=Adium@188.98.203.107] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:58:52 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:59:01 perdix [n=perdix@g227136076.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:00:13 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.192.238] has joined #lisp 09:03:51 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 09:04:01 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:05:36 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 09:06:36 -!- nipra [n=nipra@117.195.98.65] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:06:56 brutus [n=brutus@203.199.213.3] has joined #lisp 09:07:19 why does (cons 1 2) give (1 . 2) and not just (1 2) ? 09:07:26 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 09:07:49 try (cons 1 '(2)) for maximal confusion 09:07:52 :) 09:08:12 brutus: cons gives you a cons cell 09:08:29 (list 1 2) gives you a 'proper' list 09:08:36 ok... 09:08:49 but why have they made a distinction between (1.2) and (1 2)? 09:08:56 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:09 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-68-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:16 because these are very different - first one is a single 'cons' cell, the other one are two cons cells 09:09:28 try 'rest' on them 09:09:55 (1.2) basicly can't continue 09:10:07 (1 2) == (1 . (2)) 09:10:32 a list is a singly linked list (if you understand these programming terms) 09:10:46 each element has two storage places 09:10:52 first stores the value 09:11:00 rest stores the pointer to the next cell 09:11:07 and so on 09:11:15 oh...I see now.. 09:11:44 thanks! 09:11:46 but in (1 . 2) both these elements are use for storing value - so you have '2' where a pointer to the next cons cell would be if it were a list (1 2) 09:12:12 and dot '.' is just notation 09:12:25 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:12:39 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.84] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:12:39 -!- jdz_ is now known as jdz 09:12:55 (listp '(1 . 2)) returns T 09:13:06 so lisp doesn't differentiate 09:13:16 between a cons cell and a normal list 09:13:39 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:13:43 hm.. looks like it 09:13:56 http://l1sp.org/cl/listp 09:13:58 it's best to look into hyperspec to see how a function is defined 09:14:11 "if object is a cons, listp does not check whether object is a proper list; it returns true for any kind of list" 09:14:18 look like listp == consp 09:14:48 No, listp is also valid for nil. 09:14:50 yeah, seems so 09:14:59 i.e., (listp nil) => true. 09:15:08 whereas (consp nil) => false 09:15:08 tic: interesting 09:15:52 http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/darcs/alexandria/lists.lisp for proper-list-p 09:16:10 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 09:16:10 haha, proper-list-p :) 09:16:24 What's so funny? 09:16:39 proper list is the term used for lists that aren't circular. 09:17:33 so is (1) equivalent to (1 . (nil)) ? 09:17:41 (1 . nil) 09:17:59 tic: oh, the usage of word proper. didn't come to think of circular lists in this context :) 09:18:01 (nil) is same as (nil . nil) 09:18:02 (nil) is the list (nil . nil) 09:18:04 (nil) is actually (nil . nil) 09:18:05 lol 09:18:06 :D 09:18:10 we're all so smart 09:18:11 -!- vng [n=vng@115.74.152.163] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:18:17 -!- maus [n=maus@115.74.152.163] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:18:21 guaqua, well, there you have it. 09:18:29 tic, then shouldn't (eq '(1) '(1 . nil)) return T ? 09:18:36 not eq, but eql 09:18:43 eq tests for identity, i.e. memory address. 09:18:47 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@76.216.21.95] has joined #lisp 09:18:52 tic: and eql doesn't (for conses)? 09:19:04 tic, hmm..both seem to return NIL on slime 09:19:06 use equal to be sure :D 09:19:08 jdz, eql is structural identity, no? 09:19:12 tic: no 09:19:14 minion: memo for vng: By email I sent you an example of how to use presentations in CLIM. 09:19:15 Remembered. I'll tell vng when he/she/it next speaks. 09:19:15 Sorry then. 09:19:21 eql is the same as eq except for numbers and characters 09:19:27 minion: memo for maus: By email I sent you an example of how to use presentations in CLIM. 09:19:27 Remembered. I'll tell maus when he/she/it next speaks. 09:19:30 alright. use #'equal 09:19:59 eq and eql are both pretty weah 09:20:05 weak* 09:20:09 minion: memo for spiaggia and plage: Do you think minion can take several nicks for a memo? 09:20:10 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 09:20:15 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:20:24 beach, bummer. ;) 09:20:29 minion: You are also not very smart! 09:20:30 what's up? 09:20:31 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:20:50 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 09:21:26 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:21:34 tic, funcall on equal works 09:21:49 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 09:22:14 brutus: (equal '(1) '(1 . nil)) should return T. 09:22:17 brutus, huh? 09:22:39 brutus, oh. I used #' to denote that I was talking about the function named EQUAL. 09:23:15 beach, yeah, it does 09:23:58 Where is claar when we need it? 09:25:02 cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 09:25:39 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@76.216.21.95] has quit [] 09:25:48 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-68-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:25:56 why do we need a 'labels' function? 09:26:06 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:26:47 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:27:10 brutus: why do you think that we don't? 09:28:13 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@76.216.21.95] has joined #lisp 09:28:26 (and actually, it is a special operator) 09:28:35 serichsen, what is its use regarding recursive functions? 09:28:59 brutus: It makes it possible for locally-defined functions to call each other recursively. 09:29:10 clhs labels 09:29:11 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm 09:29:48 brutus: You can read more there ^. 09:29:50 beach, "each other"? how's that applicable for a single recursive function? 09:30:07 ah ok...lemme check that out 09:30:11 brutus: For a single function, labels makes it possible for it to call itself. 09:30:28 beach, but can't that be done without labels too? 09:30:39 no 09:30:46 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:31:36 what about (defun length (list) (if (null list) 0 (+ 1 length (cdr list))))? 09:31:48 brutus: that's not local 09:32:16 brutus: (aside from the fact that it has syntax errors and that it would be illegal to define such a function) 09:33:05 i don't understand what local means...maybe I should read that up 09:33:19 brutus: A local function is one that is introduced by labels or by flet. 09:34:03 and it is local to? 09:34:07 all functions defined within labels? 09:34:39 brutus: The scope of such a function is the body of the flet or labels form, and in case of labels, also the functions introduced. 09:35:18 beach, oh...so is it like 'let', but with functions instead of variables? 09:35:27 That's correct. 09:35:51 Which we need because CL is has different namespaces for variables and for functions. 09:36:21 oh...i get it 09:36:37 beach: about your font rendering 09:36:53 yes? 09:37:02 beach: I've looked at the code 09:37:37 and I don't understand how it's superior to TTF rendering - I must be missing something? 09:38:03 beach: afaik you create paths and then pass them to AA ? 09:39:05 ziga`: I am sure you *could* do something similar with TTF (in the hinting code). My code position control points as a function of resolution, and for that it has the full CL language at its disposal. 09:39:26 beach: where is this 'hinting' implemented? 09:39:27 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:40:16 beach: I see there is some 'unusual' code, but I don't understand yet what it does or how it works 09:40:31 ziga`: In TTF, you have the control points at very high resolution, and then each glyph can have a hinting program associated with it that moves those control points. That technology is patented though, and it uses a silly stack-based language, because it has to be possible to integrate into static languages like C. 09:41:29 ziga`: As you can see, my code makes frequent references to parameters related to resolution, such as the vertical thickness of a stroke, etc. 09:42:20 beach: is this in mf.lisp? 09:42:28 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:42:31 ziga`: Then it carefully positions control points so that strokes will be aligned with pixels for sharpness. If you don't do that, you get blurry lines, which your examples of mcclim-freetype and mcclim-trutype show. 09:42:46 ziga`: font.lisp I would think. 09:42:50 notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has joined #lisp 09:44:14 ziga`: You will find references to stroke-width, stroke-hight, lower-case-ascent, etc, and those are computed to be integers as a function of the resolution. 09:44:25 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:44:32 interesting 09:44:55 ziga`: So for instance, you can make (say) the proportions of height and width different at different resolutions. 09:46:50 in the picture gylphs look very 'aligned' to the grid.. 09:47:05 xu` [n=user@123.120.4.121] has joined #lisp 09:47:13 Yes, that's what makes them sharp. 09:47:27 but for a serifed font - would it work too? 09:47:37 theoretically 09:48:15 ziga`: As Knuth wrote, it is important that vertical lines be aligned on a horizontal pixel and vice versa. 09:49:08 beach: you're redoing knuth's work I see :) but making something like CM font is surely beyond anyone's reach 09:49:17 ziga`: serifs are minor features that won't be aligned, but that's not important. 09:49:46 ziga`: Don't overestimate Knuth (or underestimate me :)) 09:50:25 beach: the stack basedness wasn't an influence from existing postscript implementations? I always thought it was something like that. 09:50:41 Ok, it appears that downgrading SBCL fixed my ioctl problem. 09:50:50 ziga`: Besides, Knuth's programs are free (as I recall), and my embedded language resembles MF a lot, so I am sure Knuth's CM programs could be mechanically translated to my embedded language. 09:51:05 nvoorhies: I don't know the details of it. 09:51:07 beach: ok :) but seeing you designed the letters yourself - making a unicode font by hand is way too much work -- if it would be possible to convert TTF fonts to your format it would surely be great 09:51:28 hm.. 09:52:11 QinGW3 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:52:12 Yeah, I know next to nothing of it other than that postscript is stack based and implemented all over, more or less 09:52:20 ziga`: You could translate TTF fonts, but you won't get the advantage of the superior capabilities of alignment. 09:53:04 nvoorhies: I do know that we have the power of a dynamic language, so we don't have to resort to silly and crippled languages like that. 09:53:05 beach: your algorithm requires fonts to be built from vertical, horizontal strokes, curves and such afaik 09:53:17 ziga`: Just that font. 09:53:24 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:53:28 There's something rather fragile in the junction between my code, lh-usb and unix-ioctl. 09:53:42 ziga`: Er, I guess you are right. Isn't that what all fonts are made of? 09:54:32 beach: true, but that implies you have a lot of work to do compared to TTF if one wants a 'complete' font 09:55:05 mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6DC27.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:33 programming in by hand all non USA glyphs (european) must be a lot of work.. not mentioning some more exotic languages 09:55:53 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:56:09 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:56:14 it does look very nice, though :) 09:59:47 ziga`: many of the glyphs can be acquired by composition 10:01:14 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:01:36 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 10:02:04 jdz: true, true 10:03:29 -!- gaze [n=gaze@ResNet-36-86.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [] 10:06:34 -!- QinGW3 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:06:48 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:07:21 -!- xu [n=user@123.120.30.119] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:07:43 is metafont format described anywhere (besides Knuth books I guess)? 10:08:25 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-82-159.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 10:09:27 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBAFE6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:09:46 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:09:51 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:11:00 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:11:01 Hun` [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:11:46 I see .. '.mf' are human readable sources 10:17:20 No, downgrading SBCL didn't change anything. 10:18:28 demmel [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 10:20:13 ziga`: It would be a lot of work, yes. 10:20:24 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@76.216.21.95] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:20:27 ziga`: Look at the Metafont book. 10:22:17 ziga`: The best thing to do (I think) would be to mechanically translate some TTF font, such as freefont, into my source. Then, people who care about the quality of a glyph could themselves supply a better program for it. 10:22:55 beach: but translating outline into strokes is pretty complex 10:23:03 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6DC27.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:22 sepult [n=levgue@87.78.120.150] has joined #lisp 10:23:50 ziga`: Ah, I see what you mean. No, my font can be qualified as "outline" as well. 10:24:05 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 10:24:36 rsynnott [n=rsynnott@87-198-231-166.ptr.magnet.ie] has joined #lisp 10:24:43 beach: because it's converted to paths in the end? 10:24:46 ziga`: In fact, none of the glyphs in my font use a pen. 10:24:51 aha 10:25:20 ziga`: Yes, pen strokes are just a higher-level concept that ultimately turns into Bezier paths. 10:26:50 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 10:27:20 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 10:28:14 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-52.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 10:29:49 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Client Quit] 10:30:40 thatdavidmiller [n=__david_@87-194-167-91.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:31:55 nipra [n=nipra@117.195.98.65] has joined #lisp 10:33:26 interesting article : https://tug.org/TUGboat/Articles/tb26-2/piska.pdf 10:33:40 METAFONT->outline font 10:33:48 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:34:10 -!- perdix [n=perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has quit ["A cow. A trampoline. Together they fight crime!"] 10:36:57 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@118.210.22.72] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:39:02 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-239-35.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:02 -!- demmel [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:40:17 Axius [n=ojof@92.85.219.234] has joined #lisp 10:46:33 trittweiler [n=tcr@131.159.18.245] has joined #lisp 10:47:35 ziga`: Interesting indeed! 10:48:44 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177127190.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:51:02 ziga`: Though, TeXtrace uses high-resolution bitmaps as input. That's a pity, because then you lose not only hinting information, but also the positions of control points. 10:51:05 I have recompiled sbcl, and I get alot of complaints about file X is a fasl file compiled with SBCL 1.0.30.36, and can't be loaded into SBCL 1.0.31.32. 10:51:25 Then I have to use the [TRY-RECOMPILING] restart, to go on 10:51:34 Is there a way to do this automaticly? 10:51:56 knobo: yes! 10:52:00 knobo: see cliki.net/asdf 10:52:46 varjagg [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 10:53:22 lispm [n=joswig@f054052117.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:53:24 lichtblau, did you get my mail? 10:54:05 imho asdf should provide a recompile-all restart 10:54:14 It worked! 10:54:30 And so amazingly simple solution :) 10:54:33 trittweiler: sending a response right now 10:54:54 lichtblau, alright. 10:55:39 trittweiler: but where in the stack should that restart go? :-) 10:56:39 I'm a fuzzy-headed user, don't bore me with technical issues! 10:58:30 *Xach* ponders the hairstyles of Lisp 10:59:05 Couldn't it go shortly before execute-plan? 10:59:43 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-112.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:59:53 Xach: facial or scalp? 11:00:32 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-112.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:00:46 antifuchs: good point. i was thinking only of scalp, but facial is also an important consideration. 11:00:53 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6DC27.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 11:01:05 Moustaches of #Lisp 11:01:07 it's hard to think about lisp scalps without thinking specifically of pascal costanza 11:02:09 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [] 11:02:14 girzel [n=user@123.121.200.25] has joined #lisp 11:02:28 you really say "scalp hair" in English? 11:02:40 no. 11:02:47 -!- brutus [n=brutus@203.199.213.3] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:03:08 So what's the right expression? 11:03:36 I would say "hair" and "facial hair" in this case. 11:04:28 Scalp hair could be part of some rock or even punk band I guess 11:04:49 -!- hadronzoo [n=user@209.30.40.228] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:05:27 Scalp hair is what you get after you've scalped someone 11:07:03 *Xach* goes back to working on a BAF file parser 11:07:26 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net."] 11:07:29 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:59 Is there a way to produce a quick checksum of a function's code object in sbcl? 11:08:15 lukasz [n=lukasz@83.238.213.13] has joined #lisp 11:08:21 Just getting function's data vector would suffice, in fact. 11:09:25 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.85.219.234] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:09:53 deepfire: md5 over the output of DISASSEMBLE? 11:10:21 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:11:02 ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 11:11:22 antifuchs, I'd like something more precise, to be able to bisect it usefully. 11:11:39 lispmasters: is representing a 2D point/vector with a complex number effective in Lisp -- is it better than `defstruct' (in SBCL for instance)? 11:11:56 Ok, SB-DISASSEM::FUN-CODE apparently gets me halfway there. 11:12:12 ziga`: You get complex arithmetic for free. 11:12:50 deepfire: or just use the string representation you get from disassemble? 11:13:17 beach: you mean addition? 11:14:12 ziga`: all of arithmetic. 11:14:17 beach: I myself was thinking of 'misusing' complex numbers for coordinates and then I saw it in your program. However it's performance that concerns me 11:14:53 ziga`: I don't see why. 11:14:58 it probably faster than defstruct in sbcl right? 11:15:08 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:15:35 ziga`: nothing beats a simple measurement 11:15:43 c|mell [n=cmell@95.58.34.143] has joined #lisp 11:15:47 beach: it depends how complex is represented in the implementation - it could be a 'cons' 11:15:55 H4ns: true 11:16:19 ziga`: And how is that different from a structure? 11:16:19 it couldn't be a cons, but what if it were? 11:16:46 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:17:53 beach: structures should be packed together if there are types provided - (ofcourse this is not C) at least I would expect the better implementations like SBCL and CCL to do this - cons cells can spread around in memory which is worse cache wise 11:18:11 by my poor knowledge of how processors work 11:18:52 ziga`: Both in the case of a cons cell, a struct, and a complex, every sane implementation would represent them as consecutive cells. 11:19:16 beach: that's what I wanted to know :) 11:19:48 beach: not quite, because the cons would store the floats boxed, the complex stores them unboxed, and the struct may or may not stored them boxed depending on type declarations and implementation details. 11:20:02 so complex is probably the best - a good compiler can perhaps use SSE to to parallel addition of both numbers 11:20:17 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-140-191-199.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:20:20 So there are two consecutive things, but the things are pointers in one case and immediate data in the other case. 11:20:24 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:28 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has left #lisp 11:20:40 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:20:41 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:41 lichtblau: Right. 11:20:57 lichtblau: so my nose was correct. Cons cells have pointers 11:23:44 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 11:24:48 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:26:39 also SBCL's compiler can store a complex in a register pair, but doesn't handle structure slots in that way (IIUC) 11:27:13 lots of differences, and none of them matter unless you do that simple measurement H4ns recommended 11:27:49 isn't it a complex measurement? 11:27:55 sorry. 11:28:37 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:28:41 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:42 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 11:30:19 -!- sepult [n=levgue@87.78.120.150] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:30:30 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:30:32 does anyone know of an example where by a computer program is taught to play a game through natural language 11:30:58 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has left #lisp 11:31:04 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483AE4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:07 demmel [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 11:31:27 any game implemented in COBOL 11:31:30 (kidding) 11:31:50 Guthur: global thermonuclear war? 11:31:52 antifuchs, never mention that language, i will have nightmares 11:32:09 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@95.58.34.143] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:32:12 *antifuchs* shrugs. 11:32:41 existential horror is a pillar of programming 11:32:57 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-150.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:33:36 arnee [n=arnee@mail.kono.de] has joined #lisp 11:33:59 hhh I just had too much exposure to it when i wanted to be playing with so many other nicer languages 11:35:57 I will investigate the possibility of teaching an AI the rules to a game, it doesn't have to play well, just make remotely sensible decisions 11:37:13 Guthur: There was a PhD thesis from Linköping in the 1970s that did something like that for solitaire games. 11:37:26 Guthur: But I think it was in Swedish. 11:37:34 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:02 beach i was thinking someone must have tried it 11:38:30 my swedish isn't great though, non-existent if i am honest 11:38:46 it's not that hard :) 11:39:02 1977 Cedvall, Mats: Semantisk analys av processbeskrivningar i naturligt språk. Matematiska institutionen, Linköpings universitet. 11:41:58 -!- Hun` [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:42:36 c|mell [n=cmell@92.47.65.119] has joined #lisp 11:44:38 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 11:46:29 jahmarley1 [n=jahmarle@88.238.207.239] has joined #lisp 11:53:01 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@80.187.104.162] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:55:32 antifuchs, as in, coding one's way out of hell? 11:55:50 deepfire: as in, tentacled horrors from other dimensions. 11:56:03 uncaring universe, ready to make you suffer. 11:56:50 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:24 the financial sector then 11:57:25 also, great old bugs sleeping at the bottom of an ocean of functionality, waiting for the requirements to align and rise again, then devour all humanity. 11:57:32 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@66.112.249.119] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:57:48 thats where my cobol pain was, dread place 11:57:57 s/dread/dreadful 11:58:27 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:57 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 12:03:14 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:03:36 ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 12:04:03 -!- jahmarley [n=jahmarle@88.238.205.117] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:09:22 -!- froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has quit [leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:09:22 -!- vsync [n=vsync@BLISTER.QUADIUM.NET] has quit [leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:09:22 -!- zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has quit [leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:09:22 -!- Borbus [i=borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has quit [leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:09:49 vsync [n=vsync@BLISTER.QUADIUM.NET] has joined #lisp 12:09:49 froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 12:09:49 zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 12:09:49 Borbus [i=borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:57 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-79-118.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:16:08 gerry_ [n=gerry@58.55.80.204] has joined #lisp 12:18:57 -!- gerry_ [n=gerry@58.55.80.204] has quit ["leaving"] 12:20:16 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [] 12:20:57 hello. how can one display an expansion of a macrolet? i tried things like this (which do not work): (macrolet ((test (a) `(list ',a ,a))) (let ((a 2)) (print macorexpand-1 '(test a)))) 12:22:03 Mecaguento [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 12:23:03 <_3b> trebor_dki: try something like the expand-1 example in the macroexpand-1 clhs page 12:23:04 _3b, memo from pkhuong: seems the main loop hackery doesn't work anymore in 10.6. For now, I'm just using the real main thread on SBCL. 12:23:04 _3b, memo from pkhuong: gbyers confirmed that their GLUT trick stopped working on 10.6 for them too. Not sure what you'll have to do on CCL, but we can just run stuff in the main thread on SBCL. 12:23:09 trebor_dki: macorexpand-1? And without a parenthesis in front? 12:23:28 <_3b> oh yeah, that too :p 12:23:51 Reaver2 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 12:24:27 ok, i'm defining an object that will have many properties which will differ across generations. would it be better to enumerate each one, or use a property list? 12:24:50 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:24:50 assuming there's enough props that enumeration could get annoying ;] 12:24:53 Demosthenex: What do you mean by "generations"? 12:25:12 -!- Mecaguento [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has left #lisp 12:25:13 beach: i'm creating a base object which represents a model of my data in its original format. 12:25:19 <_3b> Demosthenex: hash table maybe? 12:25:46 outside of my control each new version of the product the format changes slightly, and i'll be using inheritance to define a new object to match each version 12:25:48 oh, sorry, i mis-pasted, surely there is a ( before macroexpand-1 12:25:49 Demosthenex: maybe a prototype object system would be good for your purposes. there are a few of those for common lisp 12:26:23 Demosthenex: Thanks for the info, but it makes absolutely no sense to someone who doesn't already know what you are doing. 12:26:35 ok, i got that. i was framing a general question 12:26:47 ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 12:26:50 Demosthenex: What is a "product" and where did it come from, and what is a "generation" of an object? 12:27:04 really i think it distills down to, is it bad form to use a dynamic list (plist/alist) in an object to represent core slots, or should i just enumerate it all? 12:27:11 Demosthenex: But without that information, it is impossible to give an answer to your question. 12:27:38 -!- morphling [n=stefan@89.15.141.171] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:27:46 Demosthenex: Use a class instance. 12:28:08 (Since I have no idea what it means not to enumerate properties) 12:28:13 <_3b> Demosthenex: if they are only added, and all that exist for a particular version are used, i might lean towards enumating 12:28:28 _3b: thats what i was leaning toward 12:28:33 <_3b> beach: he wants to not have to type out all the slot names in advance i think 12:28:34 Demosthenex: note that you can change the class of an existing object. that may help you, too. 12:28:52 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:28:53 but given this is a design decision and i'm not totally comfortable with CLOS yet, i thought i'd ask. and yes, the question is terribly general... 12:28:58 _3b: Somewhere they must be typed I would think. 12:29:06 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-178-166.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 12:29:16 <_3b> Demosthenex: metaprogramming might also help, if you can get machine readable access to a list of slots you need somewhere 12:29:25 -!- Reaver2 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has left #lisp 12:29:28 Demosthenex: Then the answer is very general as well: "It depends". 12:29:38 beach: haha ;] 12:29:51 i think the point has been made, enumeration is clearer 12:30:00 a plist would be a shortcut 12:30:07 Demosthenex: For what it's worth, I still have no idea what you mean. 12:30:23 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@92.47.65.119] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:31:05 But since your question has been answered, I guess it doesn't matter much. 12:31:17 ok, i'll elaborate. i'm reading in records from an external source. there are 20 versions of the record, generally adding fields, rarely reorganizing. i'm creating an object to read in a record of given version. i'll use inheritance to create objects for each later record version... 12:31:20 Is it possible to automaticly crate clsql-classes from tables? 12:31:36 knobo: drewc had some code for that. 12:31:46 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 12:32:06 knobo: it queried the database schema tables to produce def-view-class forms and evaluated them, iirc. 12:32:08 given that i'm following an external source, i think now that enumerating is the right answer, instead of just tossing the data i'm reading into a plist 12:32:45 <_3b> Demosthenex: there is also the question of how much of a hurry you are in vs how annoyed you are willing to be when you have to maintain it later :) 12:32:46 drewc is not here, now... 12:32:55 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-112.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:33:28 *Xach* will look around for it 12:33:35 _3b: the reason i'm using objects in the first place is to help with maintainability 12:33:52 procedural code to try and keep track of all the versions is a fragile pita 12:33:54 Demosthenex: How could you NOT use objects? 12:34:09 Ogedei [n=user@e178211133.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:34:09 my old code just manipulated lists :P 12:34:12 or hashes 12:34:24 Demosthenex: Lists and hastables are objects. 12:34:24 12:34:24 12:34:30 ya i was just going to say lists 12:34:32 oops, sorry. 12:34:42 <_3b> if maintainability is a goal, i'd be explicit 12:34:53 yep, i agree now 12:35:04 i was kind of up in the air, but ya'll helped firm it up. i appreciate it. 12:35:40 <_3b> plists/hashtables in slots might win for prototyping, or sparse data 12:36:05 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6DC27.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:36:34 joachifm [n=user@193.157.244.171] has joined #lisp 12:37:03 _3b: i'll have to use hashes for "extended" properties where the number of items vary by record, but thats normal. i'll track core properties via enumeration 12:37:23 would a tree not be an option, instead of class hierarchy, is there even an inheritance hierarchy, it sounds all very arbitrary 12:37:46 -!- trittweiler [n=tcr@131.159.18.245] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:37:59 shyam_k [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has joined #lisp 12:38:13 Guthur: there is some treeing going on, but i must make a tree of objects for clarity 12:38:27 its a complex dataset i have to normalize :P 12:39:28 can different objects have potentially conflicting slot accessors? 12:39:38 but is there any inheritance, without it OO loses a sizeable chunk of its benefits, imho 12:40:06 got it, i still wonder how to use macroexpand-1 within a macrolet directly, but after all these macros (expand, expand-1) using the &environment do work, thanks. 12:40:08 relational-objects-for-lisp, maybe? 12:40:22 Guthur: i'll be using inheritance to define versions of the records i'm reading 12:40:37 Guthur: because its the only way to make sense of it 12:41:10 Reaver2 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 12:41:16 c|mell [n=cmell@95.58.42.61] has joined #lisp 12:41:33 ok, you know your problem domain better than me, i am sure it fits...just theorising 12:42:05 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:42:13 yep, i know i asked general questions, but there were enough specifics that i got a good answer ;] 12:42:58 hi hi.. lol and rofl :) 12:45:55 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:46:33 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [] 12:46:51 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xxlfmxrhcspwphog] has left #lisp 12:47:02 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 12:48:17 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:51:18 faux [n=user@82.182.78.98] has joined #lisp 12:51:41 _deepfire pasted "function=>insn vector, disassembly." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89431 12:52:57 *p_l* ponders how to implement VMS-like CHF with register stack... 12:52:59 Ok, sleepwards I go. 12:53:27 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-101-244.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 12:54:03 The unstable ioctl stuff remains elusive, but now I have tools. 12:54:46 deepfire, did you solve your xcvb problems? 12:55:39 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp013.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:56:24 shadowhywind [n=shadowhy@adsl-76-199-163-42.dsl.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:30 hay all, when ever i try to do something like (first '(a b)) I get an error stating the Sumbol's function definition is void: first . I thought first was a "built-in" function? 12:57:33 Fare, I didn't do much more beyond fasl cache disabling, but that was enough to get desire bootstrapping XCVB successfully. 12:58:06 <_3b> shadowhywind: does cl:first work? 12:58:24 shadowhywind: sounds like your'e using emacs. 12:58:29 and emacs lisp. 12:58:32 Xach: I am 12:58:40 take it that doesn't have it 12:58:41 shadowhywind: emacs lisp and common lisp have significant differences. 12:58:47 shadowhywind: (require 'cl) will bring it in. 12:58:48 (require 'cl) 12:59:05 that is, it will bring in first, and a bunch of other cl-like things. but it doesn't make elisp into common lisp. 12:59:30 and ask emacs lisp questions in #emacs 12:59:39 If you people werent probably half way around the world, I would hug you guys! 13:02:04 -!- jahmarley1 [n=jahmarle@88.238.207.239] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:03:33 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6DC27.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 13:03:50 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:04:14 -!- fiveop_ [n=fiveop@e179161173.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 13:04:22 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:41 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:07 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 13:06:49 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 13:10:51 -!- arnee [n=arnee@mail.kono.de] has quit [] 13:10:58 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-83-80.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 13:11:05 -!- shadowhywind [n=shadowhy@adsl-76-199-163-42.dsl.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:12:00 Xach: if I don't label a blog post with "lisp" or "common-lisp" will it not get included on Planet Lisp? 13:12:05 -!- shyam_k [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:12:13 -!- vandemar [i=holy@2001:470:1f10:56b:0:0:0:4] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:12:29 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:10 "common-lisp" is the magic tag 13:13:27 Xach: cheers 13:15:08 blogging about Newlisp is not enough 13:16:56 aerique: i had to add that after the "fuck me! i already had a blog..." one 13:17:44 vandemar [i=bella@2001:470:1f10:56b:0:0:0:4] has joined #lisp 13:19:27 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:20:26 /joiN #ccl 13:20:41 *hypno* *hides* in shame 13:20:55 TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has joined #lisp 13:21:22 ante__ [n=ante@83.255.35.181] has joined #lisp 13:21:27 Xach: good :) 13:21:52 -!- ante__ is now known as Cymew 13:22:17 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:22:43 what's best in life? 13:23:01 common-lisp, emacs and lisp hacking all night 13:23:29 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.160.29] has joined #lisp 13:23:33 s/emacs/SLIME/ 13:24:54 ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 13:26:38 coliv [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has joined #lisp 13:27:16 where's THE slava? 13:27:43 -!- joachifm [n=user@193.157.244.171] has left #lisp 13:27:56 ziga`: my bet is #factor 13:28:54 thanks 13:30:11 I knew about slava and you before I discovered #lisp 13:30:34 and I guess there are some more of the 'famous' people on #lisp 13:30:43 -!- demmel [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:30:52 peter seibel. 13:31:07 which nicl? 13:31:07 ziga, you can get famous, too 13:31:09 and me? 13:31:09 nick 13:31:15 not rpg, though. 13:31:20 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@95.58.42.61] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:31:22 fame is but a book or a library away 13:31:26 he is still a fine rpg 13:31:38 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:32:03 to get famous one has to - have a blog {AND,OR} write a book 13:32:16 I don't see any of these happening to me 13:32:27 preferably a library that combines a few existing ones and becomes the de facto library for those tasks 13:32:30 {AND,OR} design a new language 13:32:47 ziga`: please no more new languages :( 13:32:54 i wasn't talking about getting to be famous in general, just within the lisp community :) 13:32:57 guaqua: library only gets you famous in the CL community 13:33:01 :) 13:33:11 or design a successful HTML/HTTP replacement 13:33:32 noooo 13:33:36 trittweiler [n=tcr@atradig113.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 13:33:37 it works, leave it! 13:33:44 it might make you famous if you by accident stumble into a new way of solving some central issue in that particular problem domain 13:34:08 cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 13:34:43 ouch! i started again with a blank .emacs and simple CL loop is indenting wrong :( 13:34:57 p0a [n=user@athedsl-378021.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 13:34:58 Hello 13:35:14 I was reading a book on lisp and read that the NAND function is logically complete 13:35:31 (defun nand (x y) (not (and x y))) 13:35:35 Xach: are you using your ergoemacs? 13:35:35 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 13:36:10 There was an exercise, to create LOGIC-AND and LOGIC-OR with NAND. (nand (nand x x) (nand y y)) etc. 13:36:11 ziga`: i don't know what ergoemacs is, sorry. 13:36:11 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 13:36:28 But I'm left wondering, why is (nand x y) logically-complete but (and x y) is not? 13:36:38 hello 13:36:48 The frist will be T only if both x and y are nil, and the second will be T only if both x and y are t 13:37:02 -!- Reaver2 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:37:09 Since this is boolean algebra, there should be something that nand is symmetric to, right? 13:37:18 Xach: oh I must have confused you with Xah!! 13:37:28 well that's clear now 13:37:28 :D 13:37:34 ouch. 13:37:36 you can make anything with nand? 13:37:44 *Xach* is glad to fade back into obscurity 13:38:01 stassats: what? 13:38:10 p0a: I think they mean you can perform any boolean logical operation given one or more NANDs 13:38:11 Xach: but I used your CL libraries before 13:38:15 nands and nors are the most common used I though? 13:38:18 and your nand evaluates all arguments 13:38:22 guess maybe just in ee (: 13:38:36 stassats: I think you misunderstood me. 13:38:39 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7654043762021156507 13:38:41 I think that's what they mean by "logically complete" 13:38:42 from nand to tetris in 12 steps 13:38:52 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 13:38:52 p0a: how would you build LOGNOT if you had LOGAND but no LOGNAND? 13:39:39 -!- trittweiler [n=tcr@atradig113.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:39:41 lichtblau: you only need LOGNAND. and you'd built it like this: (nand (nand x x) (nand x x)) 13:40:20 ryepup: that is right, but in boolean algebra every operation has another one that does the same for the second boolean value 13:40:56 because t and nil are interchangeable: you could in theory change every nil for t and t for nil in your boolean algebra and you'd end up with the opposite result 13:41:28 p0a: uh, I was trying to answer your question from above 13:41:55 lichtblau: Oh. I misread your message 13:41:56 lognand is a bitwise operation, i don't see how you can implement it with NAND 13:42:10 c|mell [n=cmell@95.58.33.149] has joined #lisp 13:42:18 *Krystof* watches all computational devices disappear in a puff of logic 13:42:38 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 13:43:14 lichtblau: it's not possible! I did not doubt that the book was telling the truth, but why can't I build LOGNOT from LOGAND only? 13:43:40 p0a: logically complete: 13:43:40 A set of circuit gates or logical elements is logically complete if any boolean function representable by a truth table can be realized using only gates or elements from that set. 13:43:44 Example: 13:43:46 AND, OR, and NOT is a logically complete set. NAND is logically complete. NOR is logically complete. 13:43:48 -!- faux [n=user@82.182.78.98] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:43:49 eep 13:43:50 I see LOGNAND is composed of the two operations needed for alogically complete system: AND and NOT. But that is not formally stated 13:43:52 sorry 13:44:47 schme: that term is an engineering one 13:44:58 (eq 'Xach 'Xah) 13:45:14 NIL 13:45:19 p0a: Why would the term be different in CS ? 13:45:31 p0a: for the same reason that if all you have is multiplication by 1, you can't get negative numbers 13:45:39 schme: there's no circuits, it'd be the same in meaning of course 13:45:42 (mismatch "Xach" "Xah") => 2 13:45:42 whereas if you have multiplication by -1, you can get both negative and positive numbers 13:45:57 p0a: but there are logical elements. 13:46:08 Krystof: :D 13:46:21 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 13:46:40 p0a: besides. we all know electrical engineering > CS ;) 13:46:57 (eq 'slava "THE slava pestov) => t 13:47:01 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["brb"] 13:47:08 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 13:47:31 (slava-fan-club-p '#lisp) 13:47:45 Krystof: thanks 13:47:46 gtg 13:47:47 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-378021.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 13:48:04 (slava-fan-p 'ziga`) reader error 13:48:44 -!- ziga` [n=user@BSN-143-132-7.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:49:02 (symbol-package 'slava) -> # 13:49:09 trittweiler [n=tcr@atradig113.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 13:51:04 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:51:22 lichtblau, Sorry I didnt see --long-help, and install --help didnt work 13:52:30 trittweiler: hello! your slime slides have a navigation bug - when i click the left side "Recipe: LOOP indentation" link, it jumps to the Isearch-Yank slide. 13:52:36 right. clbuild --help # would be nice to have 13:53:49 or clbuild help 13:53:53 Xach: Yeah I experienced the same today. 13:54:17 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 13:54:19 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:54:25 for those of you who know your way around hemlock: is the low-level backend stuff big? 13:54:28 Its probably due to some stupidity on my part; I do not actually know latex and always misuse LyX 13:54:54 i am talking about the Xlib-interface stuff, etc. ie, is it layered in a way that you can actually plug in something else by replacing the backend? 13:55:27 lichtblau somehow made it use Qt 13:55:29 CCL has done it, it uses Hemlock without X 13:55:52 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@95.58.33.149] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:56:05 lispm: That's not entirely accurate. CCL's Hemlock has removed the backend API from Hemlock, replacing it with an entirely different mechanism. 13:56:30 wasn't that his question? 13:57:06 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-211-174.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:57:09 I took his question to mean whether Hemlock's existing backend API is flexible enough to easily build new backends. 13:57:11 lispm: no, hypno wants to write another backend using the same mechanism. 13:57:18 -!- lukasz [n=lukasz@83.238.213.13] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:57:24 lichtblau: precisly. 13:57:28 what is 'mechanism'? 13:57:41 ie, plug in different functions for handling keyboard mouse and drawing primitives. 13:57:47 lispm: the backend api. 13:57:59 lispm: In Portable hemlock, the mechanism is a couple of generic functions specializing on a device class. 13:58:01 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 13:58:04 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-68-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:29 CCL did not replace the backend? 13:59:26 lichtblau: so it's a question of implementing a new device class? most of the protocol is already done, so to speak? 13:59:28 CCL has removed that API entirely. Instead, it lets Objective C stuff do the rendering, based on a different approach where Objective C is notified about buffer changes. 14:01:11 So what does it take to update sbcl's website? 14:01:45 checkout the sbcl-page module, modify, find the relevant libraries to build html from sexps, upload 14:02:26 not forgetting to place the NEWS file somewhere 14:02:27 sounds like a perfect opportunity for spending time until next lecture 14:03:11 hypno: Yes. Compare the DEVICE-foo methods in src/qt.lisp to those in src/tty-display.lisp. Tree is at http://gitorious.org/qthemlock/ 14:03:31 lichtblau: roger. thanks. 14:04:59 we need to make a task in OWL. What would be my best bet to turn it in, in a way so the teacher can just 'run' the application. Are there any lisp libraries that could help me out? 14:05:51 madnificent: i like save-lisp-and-die 14:06:00 cl-launch aims to make it easier also 14:06:31 drgnvale [n=acristin@209.16.73.144] has joined #lisp 14:06:37 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.160.29] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:07:24 Xach: does that allow me to send it and give them an executable that runs on different platforms? (linux, possibly windows, 32bit and 64 bit) 14:07:35 lichtblau: i see that you've basically already done what i sort of had in mind. may i ask how long time you spent on this to get hemlock going with qt? 14:07:37 madnificent: no. 14:08:00 ol2 [n=user@62.96.71.161] has joined #lisp 14:08:00 madnificent: what single executable would run on both linux and windows, though? 14:08:05 Does asdf-install support installing to custom directories? 14:08:10 Xach: would it do both 32 and 64 bit? 14:09:18 madnificent: no. (what system would?) 14:09:24 madnificent: here's a recent blog post about deploying list applications: http://ahefner.livejournal.com/15783.html 14:09:26 java 14:09:35 hmm sb-posix is failing for me at work 14:10:05 madnificent: well, there you go. use java. 14:10:48 Xach: I can ofcourse do that, but it should be clear that I don't want to do it in java 14:10:55 madnificent: create exes for each platform. distribute all binaries and the users invoke some script which decides which binary to run. 14:11:00 if I didn't want lisp, I wouldn't ask it here ,would I? 14:11:29 hypno: can I create a binary for 32bit from a 64bit os? 14:11:38 I can. Dunno about you :-) 14:11:45 how do I test just sb-psox? 14:12:03 I get some very weird error when trying to make test in contrib/sb-posix 14:12:05 that's quite good :) 14:12:07 ejs [n=eugen@9-105-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:15 Xof: is it hard? (how, link?) 14:12:18 *Xach* can't get "make" to work in the sbcl-page module. 14:12:21 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:12:30 i think most OSes actually support 32->64 bit emulation without any hazzle. however, maybe this is a problem with SBCL. if so, just generate binaries for each platfrom yourself. why is that an issue? 14:13:04 many different ways. Virtualize, cross-compile, emulate 14:13:07 build a 32-bit sbcl, use that to generate 32-bit images 14:13:20 trittweiler: asdf:operate 'asdf:test-op on sb-posix. 14:13:35 or execute posix-tests.lisp. 14:13:57 Looks like I need ASDF-INSTALL:*PREFERRED-LOCATION* 14:14:15 madnificent, cl-launch won't do cross-compilation for you, but it works under cygwin at least 14:14:40 with sbcl, clisp and more 14:14:51 madnificent: the other page I know of talking about deploying executables: http://code.google.com/p/lispbuilder/wiki/StandAloneExecutables 14:15:13 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-68-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:15:15 guaqua: and those would work everywhere... that'd be good 14:15:52 hypno: it is not a huge programming task.. I need to see if it is worth it 14:15:56 but I think it might be so 14:16:01 well, on 32-bit systems that were also compatible in other ways 14:16:03 thanks everyone! 14:17:55 madnificent: I've also got some code for makeing executables in Okra (check bin/make-dist.sh) but I haven't looked at that specific part of the project for a while. 14:18:23 madnificent: I do have a win32 executable that you can test 14:18:55 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 14:19:43 pkhuong, posix-tests.lisp misses a require for sb-rt 14:21:18 -!- benny [n=benny@87.122.14.50] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:22:14 aerique: sadly (really?), I don't have windows :) 14:22:30 aerique: I'll look at the Okra source :) 14:22:44 madnificent: haha :) it doesn't have my preference either 14:22:47 benny [n=benny@87.122.7.82] has joined #lisp 14:23:52 Spaghettini [n=Paprika@vaxjo2.179.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:15 Xof: hmm, your latest NEWS heading ("changes relative to ...") looks malformed to me. shouldn't it be "changes in sbcl-1.0.33 relative to sbcl-1.0.32"? 14:25:59 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:26:43 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:26:59 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 14:29:52 *trittweiler* guesses the sb-posix failure is due to some nfs weirdness 14:30:08 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.139] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:30:39 Xach: should be changes relative to 1.0.32. HEAD doesn't have a release (: 14:31:39 pkhuong: i see what you mean (and the smiley), but istr the convention was to use the number of the next release. 14:31:55 *Xach* can actually check, and goes to do that... 14:33:05 ok, i remembered wrong. thanks. 14:35:11 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-84-238.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:08 -!- xu` [n=user@123.120.4.121] has left #lisp 14:38:22 Xach: my latest NEWS heading is malformed in as much as it should be changes relative to sbcl-1.0.32 for now (rather than sbcl-1.0.31) 14:38:24 composite [n=composit@88.238.207.239] has joined #lisp 14:38:51 and I don't think there's a permanent convention; I used to use the fuller one, but recently it has been the HEAD-is-not-released one 14:39:02 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:39:45 Xof: ok. i was trying to build the sbcl pages from a mid-cycle NEWS file, and the regular expression fiddling is fragile and leads to an obscure error. 14:40:44 I think that might be why, in fact, we changed the convention 14:40:49 NFS4 wrongly setting the atime on a utime syscall -- does that ring the bell for anyone? 14:40:58 so that we didn't end up with an unreleased changelog on the sbcl website 14:41:06 the "obscure error" bit could do with improvement, probably 14:41:18 this is a basic question, but given short lists does CL proper form prefer alists or plists? 14:41:47 Demosthenex: in what context ? 14:42:53 i thought elisp more commonly uses plists... and i had the impression that opposite was preferred in CL 14:43:07 maybe i just picked up on an authors preference in what i'm reading 14:44:41 use whatever is most practical. i just love the meta-information that things can carry with them in CL so plists makes me happy. 14:45:29 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:46:16 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/21bd50b73d68562f?hl=en 14:46:19 blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has joined #lisp 14:47:42 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 14:47:56 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-239-35.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:48:12 TR2N [i=email@89.180.230.194] has joined #lisp 14:48:14 i think PCL didn't cover plists, or i didn't take notes on them there 14:48:19 Demosthenex, plists are preferred if and only if they are going to be used as arguments to apply 14:48:52 -!- egoz_ [n=Egoz@118.96.226.152] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:48:54 that's my policy anyway 14:50:22 Fare: do you not miss to be able to you through in another name/key pair for flexibility? 14:50:35 err, name/value 14:50:48 -!- ejs [n=eugen@9-105-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:52:57 -!- composite [n=composit@88.238.207.239] has left #lisp 14:54:11 i think that was it, PCL advises against plists because of inflexibility, so i only took notes on alists 14:55:25 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:56:17 Demosthenex: really? that sounds curious to me. chapter 13 doesn't have that discouragement in an obvious place...where is it? 14:56:21 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:57:20 there should be a bot that indexes pcl. pcl plist 14:58:27 hypno, I don't see what you mean 14:58:37 guaqua: there is. 14:58:45 guaqua: but it indexes functions, not concepts, at the moment. 14:58:53 guaqua: http://l1sp.org/pcl/getf for example 15:00:58 ejs [n=eugen@252-41-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:10 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-211-174.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:11 way cool! helps reading the paper version, too 15:02:29 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:02:50 Fare: heh, nevermind. i'm probably way off anyway. :) 15:05:21 ntd [n=user@143.215.129.83] has joined #lisp 15:05:59 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:14 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:39 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6DC27.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:51 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.66.35] has joined #lisp 15:10:16 rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:10:39 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 15:11:31 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.66.35] has left #lisp 15:12:36 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:13:05 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:15:21 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:15:37 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.66.35] has joined #lisp 15:18:21 how can i set a class slot with just the class object? 15:18:55 ? 15:19:29 Guthur: use mop:class-prototype 15:19:37 alternatively, use a special variable instead 15:19:55 -!- coyo is now known as coyo[school] 15:19:55 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:21:16 xof is mop portable 15:21:21 -!- varjagg [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:21:47 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.66.35] has left #lisp 15:21:51 I can carry a mop in my two hands 15:22:00 the reason i ask is i don't see it in CLHS 15:22:40 egoz [n=Egoz@118.96.226.152] has joined #lisp 15:23:15 Guthur: MOP is described by a standard, and CL implementations support that standard, but are not uniform in their support. The closer-mop project aims to hide the differences from an application developer who wants to use MOP functionality. 15:23:24 Guthur: my impression is that it does a good job at that. 15:24:11 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-242-194.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:26:13 hadronzoo [n=user@209.30.40.228] has joined #lisp 15:26:32 umm special variable it is i think 15:27:05 morphling [n=stefan@89.15.141.171] has joined #lisp 15:27:39 milanj [n=milan@79.101.78.176] has joined #lisp 15:30:59 I have a super busy day tomorrow :) 15:32:00 My mother has said that yeah I could take the bus and all but she definately agreed that all of the motels hotels, inns and such are wicked expensive. 15:32:08 to cambridge 15:32:56 fatalnix1995: what about a hostel? 15:33:04 umm i managed to kill emacs 15:33:12 Or Charles River bridge? 15:33:33 park benches, it's not *that* cold yet. 15:33:39 -!- Cymew [n=ante@83.255.35.181] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:34:02 you can practice recycling by using newspapers for cover 15:34:20 well I obviously would have to stay all night down there 15:34:32 sleep in the bus 15:34:40 Why obviously? There's a return train and bus late at night. 15:34:41 drive around 15:34:46 cvandusen: that's reuse; even better than recycling. 15:35:47 pkhuong: I've always thought that at least one (if not two) of the three R's were redundant 15:36:25 generally speaking (and, yes, I know we weren't speaking of recycling generals) :) 15:38:02 fatalnix1995: i wouldn't go too crazy to get to a boston lisp meeting, as fun as they are. save your coins for the next international lisp conference. 15:38:23 wherever it might be 15:38:29 -!- notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:38:35 all the more important to start saving early. 15:38:38 ah 15:38:43 international? 15:38:44 ... 15:38:54 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.66.35] has joined #lisp 15:39:02 you mean to tell me you have people coming accross the globe? 15:39:18 yeah, there was talk during the conference that Japan might be in the running 15:39:19 fatalnix1995: the last one was in cambridge and lasted for a few days. a few hundred people from lots of different places participated. 15:39:27 cambridge, mass, USA 15:39:32 Wow! 15:39:37 that's very cool 15:39:56 -!- sbt [n=sigurd_t@62.70.2.252] has quit [] 15:39:56 Hun [n=hun@80.153.55.38] has joined #lisp 15:40:06 http://www.flickr.com/photos/90204102@N00/sets/72157616928718721/ has some photos from it 15:40:06 but this one is just on thursday? 15:40:08 as nice as that might be, I believe it would be priced right outta my wallet's dreams 15:40:22 not to mention the international sbcl conference, with six people coming from all over the globe! 15:41:53 holy crap that looks formal 15:42:00 cvandusen: really? i thought it was pretty reasonable. 15:42:11 cvandusen: i suppose my view is distorted from seeing the OOPSLA price tag 15:42:19 -!- hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit ["leaving"] 15:42:20 is it just me or does everyone have a macbook there? 15:42:29 Xach: I was thinking if the next ILC were to be in Japan 15:42:40 cvandusen: Ah 15:42:43 fatalnix1995: Not just you. 15:43:22 fatalnix1995: Yeah, it could have been International Macbook Conference 15:43:33 lol 15:43:37 I have a thinkpad 15:43:45 http://www.flickr.com/photos/90204102@N00/3455023730 is me! 15:43:50 (doesn't show my macbook, sadly) 15:43:59 lichtblau: there will be more! Fear not 15:44:15 lol 15:44:21 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:44:28 thats a weird angle 15:45:12 Xach: at least your face made it there. I saw one pic of my back 15:45:14 what sthe deal with the amy thing on the chaulkboard 15:45:14 lol 15:45:44 ... and does the board next to it say OMFG? 15:45:45 I'm still trying to convince my wife that I was really there :) 15:45:50 oh never mind its of 15:46:23 what goes on during these meetings? 15:47:12 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:47:32 what goes on during the meetings, stays at the meetings 15:47:42 fatalnix1995: Someone stands in front and talks about a project they worked on, and people ask questions. Food is usually served, and people sit down and talk amongst each other about various things. Then people sometimes go out afterwards for a beer. 15:48:02 oh man, hopefully I never have to stand up in fornt of people 15:48:19 Nobody is coerced into that. 15:48:24 coyo [i=alex@144.162.133.139] has joined #lisp 15:48:24 lol 15:48:32 my projects are dumb anyways 15:48:37 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 15:48:53 Guy Steele asked at oopsla what form a programming language would take if its primary goal was to boost programmer self-esteem. 15:48:57 Maybe you could find out. 15:49:27 lol 15:50:01 I'm much closer to Boston, but it's still something of a chore to coordinate a trip, because it takes all of the afternoon to get down and the next day is painful after the train gets back at 2am. 15:50:16 I try to go when it's interesting, or the stars align, or what, because it's still pretty fun. 15:50:22 this was technicly my last fun project: http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c223/1n5AN17y/fenix.png 15:50:40 epic bsod right there 15:52:19 Some people come from Germany and Finland. They're pretty serious. 15:52:32 (sure, they were probably there for ITA already, but still.) 15:52:38 ooh finland 15:52:45 #lispers are a serious bunch. 15:52:46 :D 15:52:57 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:53:54 SeySayux [n=SeySayux@unaffiliated/seysayux] has joined #lisp 15:54:41 Hi, does lisp have anything similar to operator overloading? 15:55:04 SeySayux: you'd first need operators 15:55:25 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:32 SeySayux: Generic functions are a little tiny bit like that. 15:55:34 overloading.. not like c but if you redefine a function it will replace it 15:55:43 that I know of yet 15:55:46 Yeah, SeySayux, you may want to provide an example of what you're trying to do because really it doesn't make sense on what you're asking. 15:55:56 hmm, + is just a function? 15:56:00 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:56:04 + is a function. 15:56:11 *fatalnix1995* is still learning from the book so ignore him as he knows nothing 15:56:36 fatalnix1995: You can just watch and learn. No need to give advice and then advice to ignore the advice. 15:56:37 Well, I'm a C++/Java programmer that tries to understand Lisp -- can't really provide an example on that ;) 15:56:39 Would the ` count as an operator? 15:56:51 :) 15:56:57 Elench: no 15:57:05 well i realized I could very well be wrong 15:57:10 ` is a reader macro 15:57:15 SeySayux: You may want to start with a book at ground 1...just jumping in with C++/Java on your back will cause tons of confusion....Learning Lisp is a lot of unlearning, actually. 15:57:19 overloading doesn't make sense in a language that isn't statically (or even if not explicitly) typed. 15:57:23 fatalnix1995: wrong is great to be (: 15:57:31 fatalnix1995: sure. no harm in lurking. 15:57:36 lol 15:57:42 I tried redefining / once for a special interpreter, but couldn't get around the package locks. 15:57:45 SeySayux: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ is a great way to learn Lisp. 15:57:55 I heard that a lot of people say that lisp is "so much better", or is this just fanboy speak? 15:58:02 antoszka: 11.1.2.1.2 strikes again. 15:58:04 pkhuong: It does for object-oriented langauges to a degree, if you want to change how two instances can be added togheter. 15:58:04 SeySayux: Yes. that is just fanboy speak. 15:58:10 antoszka: you can use a different symbol, though. 15:58:31 TDT: *overloading*? 15:58:39 SeySayux: It's a mental exercise, your use of it outside that of just learning may not be there - but it does teach you to think differently about problems, and for that it's "interesting" 15:58:47 Hmm, lisp can do object oriented, right? 15:58:52 yes 15:58:58 how 'bout templates? 15:59:00 Just the OOP in CL is ... different. 15:59:04 SeySayux, called macros. 15:59:13 Xach: I had to use that symbol in this case. But that was just a quick thing for learning, not important anymore. 15:59:17 but they're not crippled, unlike templates. 15:59:27 TDT: it is just ... better. 15:59:28 minion: starting 15:59:29 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``starting''. 15:59:31 hmm 15:59:36 *Xach* can't remember arbscht's keyword 15:59:43 SeySayux, http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp 15:59:45 tic: macros and templates are different enough that saying one is better than the other is highly suspect. 15:59:50 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:00:01 SeySayux: http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/lisp-answers/ is something I'd recommend to anyone thinking about learning Common Lisp. 16:00:04 stassats: Different, I like it better, but it is different lol. 16:00:07 hmm, sounds like lisp is fairly different from C/C++/Java/Python/Perl/whatever 16:00:19 SeySayux: fairly different, fairly much the same. 16:00:21 TDT: well, it's hard to be better without being different 16:00:25 pkhuong, you're right; I'm only thinking of templates as the macro language as opposed to the type stamping. 16:00:29 SeySayux: It's very very different from C/C++/Java, and less different from Python/Perl/Ruby. 16:00:29 okay, thanks, i'll read that... 16:00:54 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/session] has joined #lisp 16:01:04 TDT: overloading specifically refers to a form of early binding that looks at the types of the arguments as declared at the call site during resolution. 16:01:45 SeySayux: New converts tend to spread the word that lisp is some kind of magic. (: 16:02:01 'converts', lol 16:02:08 pkhuong: Ok, and? If we're talking about a + b, and a and b are objects, you need to overload the + operator on those objects so you can add whatever you're wanting to add. it's ambiguous any other way. 16:02:11 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.160.29] has joined #lisp 16:02:28 pkhuong: Same thing goes with lisp, how on earth would you (+ a b) if a and b are CLOS objects. 16:02:30 TDT, but in one case it happens at runtime and in the other at compile time. 16:02:56 TDT: using Rhodes(TM) magic elastic lisp power 16:03:02 so extensible it's stretchy 16:03:12 fiveop [n=fiveop@e179161173.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:03:32 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 16:03:34 tic: I agree, and the runtime part I agree is well more powerful, but just saying...overloading isn't only for statically typed languages. 16:03:43 -!- qebab [i=finnrobi@caracal.stud.ntnu.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:04:01 TDT, well, depends on your definition of the term overloading, like pkhuong said. 16:04:02 TDT: yes, because overloading is *early binding* based on static types. 16:04:45 overloading is when foo(a) and foo((object) a) don't resolve to the same function. 16:05:11 yay semantics arguing time (: 16:05:29 lol no kidding 16:07:32 demmel1 [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 16:09:06 Krystof: re extending arithmetic, I think I'd prefer a proposal that didn't do multi-dispatch directly, but instead only let the user specify operations on objects of the same class and how to coerce values. 16:10:05 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 16:10:26 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:10:50 -!- dandersen is now known as dkcl 16:11:43 -!- demmel1 [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:11:52 demmel1 [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 16:13:40 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 16:13:44 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:13:53 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-211-174.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:14:38 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:16:21 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-140-191-199.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 16:16:26 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:16:36 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:17:42 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:18:42 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:18:43 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.254.207] has joined #lisp 16:19:23 -!- ejs [n=eugen@252-41-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:20:11 pkhuong: I have no immediate plans to extend arithmetic 16:20:16 we should talk at sbcl10 :-) 16:20:20 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@114-45-228-14.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:26:02 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:28:21 dlowe1 [n=dlowe@12.130.116.117] has joined #lisp 16:28:58 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 16:30:12 Nshag [i=user@193.248.205.116] has joined #lisp 16:31:09 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:33:49 join #basic 16:33:59 sorry :S 16:34:10 -!- SeySayux [n=SeySayux@unaffiliated/seysayux] has left #lisp 16:39:44 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:48:35 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:48:35 Axius [n=ojof@92.85.29.169] has joined #lisp 16:48:51 kjbrock 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17:23:55 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:24:53 Xach, heh, yeah .. i'm building sbcl now actually .. this is fairly cpu bound on this old machine, but still i do notice that the i/o of sbcl building isn't noticeable at all 17:25:23 -!- hadronzoo [n=user@209.30.40.228] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:27:58 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:28:55 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.116] has joined #lisp 17:29:12 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 17:30:02 you could try to build sbcl in a ram-disk for better comparison 17:30:48 jdz [n=jdz@84.237.142.223] has joined #lisp 17:31:15 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-131-10.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:31:29 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:31:50 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.85.29.169] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:32:52 salva_ [n=salva@91.117.11.105] has joined #lisp 17:33:15 quodlibetor [n=user@ool-4570c6ff.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:03 -!- quodlibetor [n=user@ool-4570c6ff.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:34:55 quodlibetor [n=user@69.112.198.255] has joined #lisp 17:35:15 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 17:37:14 scottmaccal1 [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has joined #lisp 17:39:48 Xach: screen gives me nice speed up on that benchmark... 17:40:30 -!- scottmaccal1 [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has quit [Client Quit] 17:41:32 yeah, X eats CPU .. there's a lot of output 17:43:23 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:43:24 -!- salva_ is now known as salva 17:43:48 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:44:04 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:44:49 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-150.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:45:02 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:45:58 pkhuong: ah, so sbcl is xterm-bound. 17:46:08 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:47:23 it *would* be nice if it spewed slightly less verbose information durings its build process. ;0 17:48:56 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@38.112.6.110] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:52:07 -!- tcr is now known as trittweiler1 17:52:13 -!- trittweiler1 is now known as tcr 17:54:19 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:38 xterm not so much, but all those antialiasing libvt things eat CPU 17:54:54 (or at least "ate"; these days I don't notice it so much) 17:55:18 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-101-244.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:56:55 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:58:16 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@e179161173.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 17:59:12 -!- ol2 [n=user@62.96.71.161] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:59:31 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-98-245-87-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:13 Is there a way to use cl-ppcre on streams instead of strings, or do you always have to have the entire file in memory to process it? 18:01:06 smithzv: cl-ppcre is geared for in-memory strings only. 18:01:28 smithzv: if you want to pattern match on a whole file's contents, yeah, you'd have to load it all. 18:02:49 i usually work with patterns that match on a single line, so i just work through the file a line at a time. that's not suitable for every kind of matching, though. 18:03:13 smithzv: Look into your implementation, though, you might be able to load a file more quickly than reading from the stream. 18:03:21 Xach: okay. 18:03:40 for example, CCL has a way to memory-map files to read-only vectors. 18:03:42 Adlai: I'll check 18:03:53 -!- ejs [n=eugen@95.135.41.252] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:03:54 I'm sure that SBCL and the commercial implementations provide similar funcitons 18:04:30 gonzojive_ [n=red@171.66.108.38] has joined #lisp 18:05:02 oaky, thanks. 18:05:13 uhm, okay 18:05:32 smithzv: just curious, what kind of pattern matching are you doing? 18:06:03 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-dlowzjqnpocaufif] has joined #lisp 18:06:55 Lexing some C that is embedded in a GNU manual (HTML). 18:07:21 smithzv: so you could read line by line. 18:09:02 Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has joined #lisp 18:09:18 yeah... i guess so. Good point 18:09:58 yeah, never mind, this is stupid. Thanks again 18:10:28 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 18:10:54 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-112.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:11:04 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.160.29] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:11:56 X-Scale [i=email@89.180.164.119] has joined #lisp 18:12:23 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:13:08 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit [Client Quit] 18:14:42 -!- turbo24prg [n=turbo24p@80.244.253.241] has quit ["leaving"] 18:16:33 fiveop [n=fiveop@e179161173.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:17:07 gaze [n=gaze@ResNet-36-86.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 18:17:31 -!- coyo [i=alex@144.162.133.139] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:17:38 hadronzoo [n=user@70.251.94.9] has joined #lisp 18:17:55 -!- gaze [n=gaze@ResNet-36-86.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:19:39 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:00 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:21:21 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:21:41 gaze [n=gaze@ResNet-36-86.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 18:22:07 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 18:23:07 is it possible to turn a string into a literal? 18:24:07 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.230.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:24:14 rullie: I can't quite figure out what that means. 18:24:15 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:24:29 maybe a symbol? 18:24:47 Xach: (print 'hi) vs (print "hi") 18:24:50 implode/explode of LISP :) 18:24:56 rullie: #\" is a reader-macro which produces string literals 18:25:26 rullie: that doesn't really clear it up for me. 18:25:30 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 18:26:01 I think rullie might want (read-from-string "hi") 18:26:28 that is a very heavy hammer imo 18:26:50 rullie: You might find what you need in the common lisp cookbook. 18:27:15 schme: i'm not really sure the name of thing that i want 18:27:27 rullie: do you.. want to turn "foo" into FOO ? 18:27:28 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:27:42 rullie: Just give an example (: 18:27:48 the example didn't help! 18:28:06 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 18:28:30 rullie: something like. I want to type this (...) and get this ... :) 18:29:19 I basically want to turn "hi" into 'hi 18:29:37 (intern "hi") 18:29:38 clhs find-symbol 18:29:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_s.htm 18:29:39 clhs intern 18:29:40 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm 18:29:53 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:30:05 so when I do (print 'foobar), foobar becomes a symbol? 18:30:09 rullie: There are some.. case sensitivity issues here :) 18:30:36 Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has joined #lisp 18:30:45 rullie: foobar is already a symbol, print doesn't do anything to it 18:31:02 h3r3tic [n=heretic@86.3.27.232] has joined #lisp 18:31:19 stassats: what I meant is everytime I do 'something, something gets registered in the symbol table? 18:31:36 rullie: try (describe 'foobar) . But yes. 18:32:00 not registered, but interned 18:32:23 i see 18:32:25 thanks 18:32:26 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.116] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:33:22 rullie: you might end up with (intern "hi") => |hi| 18:34:13 ok 18:34:21 hi != HI (: 18:34:32 \O\K 18:34:59 minion: what does HI mean? 18:35:01 Huthold Infracentral 18:35:16 my second question might cause some fuzz... if I have a string that is, for instance, "(print text)", how do I actually execute this 18:35:19 minion: what does ok mean? 18:35:19 Overexertion Kinetical 18:35:34 No way 18:35:47 rullie: (eval (read-from-string string)) is one option. 18:35:48 (eval (read-from-string "(print text)")) 18:35:49 you are pulling our legs? 18:35:56 :( 18:36:12 Xach: weren't you the one that said eval is evil? 18:36:25 rullie: I don't remember saying that. 18:36:29 -!- dlowe1 [n=dlowe@12.130.116.117] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:36:44 im not sure who, but someone said it runs in null context or something 18:36:49 rullie: It's often used inappropriately by the inexpereicned, but I don't think that makes it evil. 18:36:51 overall impression i got is "bad" 18:37:01 Are you experienced? 18:37:02 evil is in the intent 18:37:08 Xach: i'm very much inexperienced 18:37:22 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-68-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:31 Time to learn some lisp :) 18:37:49 rullie: What often happens is a novice paints him or herself into a corner that looks escapable only by EVAL. The usual solution is not to figure out how to make eval work in that situation, but to back up and try something different. 18:38:02 rullie: Of course, sometimes eval is exactly the right tool for the job. Depends on the situation. 18:38:42 c|mell [n=cmell@194.106.199.181] has joined #lisp 18:39:03 Xach: I have this file that contains some lisp code, and some text. I am parsing through it, and occasionally running the lisp code 18:39:07 does that sound like a eval thing 18:39:32 mmmmmmmmmaybe 18:39:44 sounds like a thing for commenting shit out and LOAD :) 18:39:54 lol 18:40:40 manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6DC27.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:40 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6DC27.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:42:37 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-evhurnmcqnwmamvj] has quit [] 18:42:43 Why doesn't this work? (CL) "(setf (car '(a b c)) 666)"? 18:43:15 '(a b c) is literal data, you are not supposed to change it 18:43:18 you can't modify literal objects 18:43:24 it might work 18:43:24 use (list 'a 'b 'c) 18:43:31 or copy-list 18:43:40 I think it is in the whole undefined behaviour area. 18:44:13 hmm 18:45:04 also 666 might be rejected if the implementors are religious 18:45:21 like clisp? 18:45:27 for example 18:45:49 use (1+ 665) 18:46:15 (setf foo 666) considered evil 18:46:31 now that is just silly. 18:46:59 Hmm..I find it hard to believe any implementation would avoid a number on religious reasons. 18:47:11 i thought that was a joke 18:47:15 pjb [n=t@85-169-61-208.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 18:47:15 BELIEVE IT 18:47:23 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:47:28 minion: chant 18:47:28 MORE QUICKLY 18:47:32 -!- unicoder [n=unicoder@ool-44c66f35.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:47:41 hell could break loose 18:48:10 unicoder [n=unicoder@ool-44c66f35.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:12 I did not know wednesdays were the #lisp silly days :) 18:48:48 schme: every day is a caturday 18:48:52 wow, &rest is amazing 18:49:00 *schme* googles the caturday. 18:49:18 -!- ans [n=ans@user82.c3.sevnica.kabelnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:49:56 schme: well, the day after caturday is cadurday, so how can they all be caturday? 18:50:14 pjb: I think you guys are just making stuff up now :P 18:50:25 no 18:50:27 its lolcats 18:50:44 uhm ok. 18:50:48 fatalnix1995: in some situations, you can get &rest stack allocated 18:50:54 can I has format t? 18:50:58 ah 18:50:59 fatalnix1995: That gave ma page with hillarious cat images! 18:51:16 schme: "today is caturday" was one of the first lolcat memes on 4chan 18:51:39 what do you mean byt stack allocated 18:51:52 I wonder if the Kanamit remark was serious, on reddit 18:51:53 Adlai: I see. Not quite following you there. Though I remember Lisa being upset sometime ago about being banned from some 4chan. 18:52:02 sayyestolife: Back to your original question, (setf (car '(a b c)) 666) worked for me 18:52:05 clhs dynamic-extent 18:52:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_dynami.htm 18:52:06 lispm: which one? 18:52:16 lisp web frameworks 18:52:29 cvandusen: The expression there has undefined consequences. it might work, it might not work. 18:52:32 'eadmund' 18:52:34 cvandusen: not portable, though. It's not really good behavior. 18:52:44 ah 18:52:46 cvandusen: It might make your screen flash green and blue, who knows. 18:53:00 "demons fly out your nose" 18:53:13 but, but, that's my color theme... 18:53:15 :) 18:53:50 Shamiq [n=Adium@wireless-165-124-97-214.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 18:54:07 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.159.182.96] has joined #lisp 18:54:22 I havent even gotten to declare yet 18:54:26 lol 18:54:36 fatalnix1995: You might never need it. 18:54:40 heh 18:54:51 or are you learning CL alphabetically? 18:55:22 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-68-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:55:27 it only matters when you're optimizing... and it's easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code, so don't worry about it until your program runs :) 18:55:37 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:40 (that is one of the most confusing clhs pages, though) 18:56:24 ah 18:56:24 DECLARE has several purposes 18:56:33 No I'm just reading PCL 18:56:55 one can for example declare that a variable is ignored 18:56:58 I have grown fond of (declare (ignorable ..)) 18:57:21 because the warnings for those incomplete functions make me sad :( 18:58:00 how do you fmakunbound everything in a package? 18:58:03 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:58:10 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:58:18 iterate of the package symbols 18:58:24 over 18:58:26 DO-SYMBOLS 18:59:06 hmm... should look up what a lambda function is 18:59:24 cool, thanks 18:59:29 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.159.182.96] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"] 18:59:37 ((lambda (x) (* x 2)) 4) => 8 19:00:20 looks correct 19:00:48 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.159.182.96] has joined #lisp 19:00:53 ... 19:01:01 fatalnix1995: LAMBDA is used define anonymous functions 19:01:16 (lambda (x) (* x 2)) is a function which takes one argument, and returns twice the argument. 19:01:32 i saw something that said "hackers do it with lambda functions" so I was interested in figuring out what they were too 19:02:45 Adlai: didn't know you could do that without funcall 19:03:43 clhs 3.1.2.1.2.4 19:03:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababd.htm 19:04:14 clhs do 19:04:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_do.htm 19:04:19 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-198-230.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:39 dodo! 19:05:08 getting weirdness? when using a do. 19:05:16 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-112.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:05:28 minion: please redirect Shamiq's attention to the fine lisppaste 19:05:29 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 19:05:33 Shamiq pasted "why's it return nil" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89455 19:05:47 hehe 19:05:51 so 19:06:05 Shamiq: your stepping clause sometimes returns nil, so that's what is assigned to a-count 19:06:07 when i feed in a list with no a's in it, it returns nil 19:06:10 -!- quodlibetor [n=user@69.112.198.255] has quit ["wow that's something"] 19:06:16 oh, damn... 19:06:18 Shamiq: it should be (if whatever (1+ a-count) a-count) 19:06:31 Shamiq: you might want to do your incrementing in the mody 19:06:33 *body 19:06:43 Adlai: prof won't let me do that 19:06:52 (hehe, see what i did there?) 19:06:54 oh, ok, so go with Xach's advice 19:07:07 also, your indentation is a bit off 19:07:12 Xach: why 1+ instead of incf? 19:07:22 Shamiq: why do you think? 19:07:28 Shamiq: how do they differ? 19:07:36 looking it up now... 19:07:43 Adlai annotated #89455 "Better indentation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89455#1 19:08:21 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:08:28 Xach: it's a cheaper operation when working with numbers? 19:08:37 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:59 Shamiq: why do you say that? 19:09:17 Or maybe: how do incf and 1+ differ? 19:09:30 clhs incf 19:09:31 might help 19:09:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_incf_.htm 19:10:41 Adlai: this 4chan you recommended seems not so hot 19:10:47 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:10:55 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.54.174] has joined #lisp 19:11:05 *Adlai* never recommended it. 19:11:25 Shamiq: or maybe another question: why did you use (cdr list) instead of (pop list) in the first stepping clause? 19:11:29 mentioned it. recommended it. words 19:11:56 Xach: to tell the truth, i don't know 19:12:25 Xach: i used it because it's what came to mind first 19:12:25 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@91.194.72.7] has joined #lisp 19:12:43 Shamiq: POP is to CDR as INCF is to 1+ (sorta) 19:12:54 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:12:59 Shamiq: it's because the stepping clause's return value is used for the new value of the variable on each step. you don't generally side-effect things in there. 19:13:00 they are macros which also modify the place you pass them 19:13:22 ... what Xach said 19:14:09 so, i'm avoiding unnecessary side effects by using 1+ or cdr? 19:14:18 DO is a on my list of macros to avoid 19:14:36 Shamiq: you're avoiding side effects that fucks shit up. 19:14:54 lispm: Riesbeck explained why he uses it. check somewhat recent cll. 19:15:03 ramus`_ [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-147-120.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:10 Shamiq: it's a redundant side effect, because the place will be updated by the DO form 19:15:13 Riesbeck was also asking for REVAPPEND 19:15:30 Maybe he reads reddit too :) 19:15:38 ha! 19:15:42 also, DO doesn't necessarily use side-effects, so you might be better off letting DO do its thing. 19:15:49 Xach: cll? 19:15:57 comp.lang.lisp 19:16:01 kk 19:16:05 newsgroup 19:16:08 yea 19:16:13 i'm glad i'm in here.... 19:16:35 y'all are super helpful 19:16:44 revappend is a bit obscure, nreconc otoh is actually useful 19:17:03 ACL2 has a function 'revappend-delete-runes-based-on-symbols' 19:17:03 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-84-238.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:17:06 *Xach* is a little sad revappend is getting so much publicity 19:17:26 Xach: why? revappend is a nice little function. 19:17:35 I know why 19:17:40 It deserves all the publicity it can. 19:17:40 I'm not sure I'm supposed to tell :) 19:18:07 hmm, maybe there is even APPREVERSSE 19:18:07 It is a temporary secret. 19:18:13 appreverse 19:21:36 Good evening! 19:21:42 evening beach 19:23:19 *Adlai* greets beach 19:23:25 hi everyone. 19:24:06 Hey tic! What's up? 19:25:27 hey hey! just got back from a heavy debugging session in URL land, and just treated myself with food. :-) What's up here? 19:25:58 tic: Looks like they are helping newbie Shamiq with homework. 19:26:04 :) 19:26:11 Mm, homework. 19:26:15 and teaching me good lisp form 19:26:34 Shamiq: Right. 19:26:36 I looked at my Lisp Opera today. I should finish that some day. 19:26:38 would be cool. 19:26:45 aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:26:51 hadronzo` [n=user@ppp-70-251-67-83.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:59 Lisp Opera? 19:27:07 libopera.so and wrap it in a Lisp app. 19:27:18 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9810.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 19:27:37 it's the SDK we deliver to customers. Maybe they want to integrate it in a Lisp environment, what do I know. I'd like to enable them to do that. :-) 19:28:08 Sounds like a nice little project! 19:30:10 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.135.50] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:30:15 -!- ramus`_ is now known as ramus` 19:30:19 Yeah. Apparently, I started on that 2008-02-25. 19:30:21 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 19:30:48 -!- gaze [n=gaze@ResNet-36-86.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [] 19:31:07 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.159.182.96] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"] 19:31:53 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@e179161173.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 19:34:03 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-4-140.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 19:35:17 -!- hadronzoo [n=user@70.251.94.9] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:36:17 *lispm* slightly different Genera look and feel: http://lispm.dyndns.org/lisp/pics/genera-activities-as-windows.png 19:37:31 pretty cool. 19:38:09 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 19:38:51 pkhuong: are you here? 19:39:39 or anyone else using sbcl on darwin? 19:39:42 lispm: how come you have a lispm? 19:40:04 a friend of mine says he seems to trigger some race condition when pressing C-c C-c in Slime multiple times in a row on a function 19:40:22 Adlai: two were gifts, some other I bought 19:40:22 I can't seem to trigger that on Linux 19:43:55 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:44:08 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.159.182.96] has joined #lisp 19:44:09 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 19:44:40 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@171.66.108.38] has quit [] 19:46:17 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:46:51 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:47:30 -!- coyo[school] is now known as coyo 19:48:34 keywords are neat :) 19:48:35 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 19:48:40 in function calls 19:48:50 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 19:50:46 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:51:46 -!- Ogedei [n=user@e178211133.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:52:37 tcr, i'm using sbcl 1.0.32 on osx intel with slime checked yesterday and no problems like that 19:53:22 Guthur [i=c13dbf02@gateway/web/freenode/x-oapuplecsftykjlk] has joined #lisp 19:53:22 silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-100-244.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:40 i have temporary folder where i installed the sbcl binary, how can i tell the make on the source version to look there 19:58:17 export $PATH="/path/to/sbcl/bin:$PATH" ? 19:58:21 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6DC27.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 19:58:42 and set SBCL_HOME ? 19:58:48 Guthur: look in the INSTALL file, it tells you how to supply alternate lisp binaries 20:00:01 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@93-82-4-56.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:00:19 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 20:01:18 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-39-119.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:05:06 redblue [i=star@207.253.108.39] has joined #lisp 20:07:34 -!- legumbre [n=user@190.135.16.50] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:08:21 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 20:08:55 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:10:00 roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 20:12:27 thanks milanj, that pointed me on the right path 20:12:42 excuse the slight pun there 20:13:15 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:13:26 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:38 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.159.182.96] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"] 20:13:48 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@194.106.199.181] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:15:58 ziga` [n=user@93-103-208-177.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:17 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:26 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-79-118.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:17:20 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 20:19:24 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 20:19:54 -!- Guthur [i=c13dbf02@gateway/web/freenode/x-oapuplecsftykjlk] has quit ["Page closed"] 20:21:55 -!- sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 20:24:31 francogrex [n=user@188.31-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:25:02 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:25:07 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/session] has joined #lisp 20:26:12 Guthur [i=c13dbf02@gateway/web/freenode/session] has joined #lisp 20:27:21 sorry another environment question, i set the patch, it loads correctly when i type sbcl in the terminal, but when i load slime in emacs its trying to load it at usr/local instead home/me 20:28:08 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.82] has joined #lisp 20:28:20 emacs didn't inherit the right variable 20:28:33 wikipedia now lists newLISP as influenced by Common Lisp, any protests if I remove that? 20:28:49 Why? It most probably is 20:29:09 stassats easy to change? 20:29:11 I thought it tried to NOT be influenced by it 20:29:31 hence 'new' 20:29:43 I think it tries to be better on many respects 20:29:49 Guthur: do you understand how environment variables work? 20:30:20 environment variables ~= special variables of unix, harrr 20:30:42 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 20:30:57 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 20:31:01 stassats i would assumed it picked up SBCL_HOME from what i set it to 20:31:30 or indeed just use the path i set in the .emacs file 20:31:32 from the newlisp website: 'Don't read books about Common LISP or Scheme, two different, older standards of LISP. These books teach you concepts that you don't need to know to learn newLISP.' 20:31:46 does not sound like 'influenced' 20:32:03 Guthur: it should be present and exported in the parent process of emacs 20:32:03 influenced does not necessarily mean that it borrows concept 20:32:11 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:33:18 Common Lisp is influenced by C 20:33:28 stassats cheers that cleared it up 20:33:29 then 20:33:35 marioxcc [n=user@201.132.138.50] has joined #lisp 20:33:53 i did not realise that at all 20:34:13 lispm: In how far did C play role in the design of Common Lisp? 20:34:23 lispm: and C is influenced by shakespear 20:34:53 how much did Common Lisp play a role in the design of newLisp? 20:35:09 I'd guess pretty much all the time 20:35:15 -!- Guthur [i=c13dbf02@gateway/web/freenode/x-xzoksjsxfropqgkt] has quit ["Page closed"] 20:35:25 "Look that's not how we're going to do it" 20:35:32 a guess is probably not enough for wikipedia 20:35:33 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:45 that could be written down later 20:35:47 lispm - I'm a big fan of removing bogus 'influenced by' tags on programming pages. 20:36:09 okay, what is your opinion? 20:36:20 the article on newlisp doesn't have any sources besides newlisp site.. 20:36:42 okay, let's remove it ;-), no joking 20:37:51 the newLISP wikipedia page also fails to mention Common Lisp 20:38:03 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:38:11 is it safe to change *standard-output* in a potentially multi threaded environment? 20:38:23 i'm in doubt that there should a wikipedia page for newlisp 20:38:35 It ought to be safe, but since threads aren't standard ... 20:38:35 Why not? 20:38:51 rullie: Better rebind rather than assign 20:39:39 tcr: what do you mean? 20:39:40 but speaking of newlisp: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1630352/picolisp-language-onoff-question 20:39:48 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-213-82.taconic.net] has quit [] 20:40:10 (let ((*standard-output* my-stream)) ...) 20:40:37 so does each thread have its own *standard-output* or something? 20:40:50 so you do not accidentally change the global binding 20:41:02 and hence affect other threads 20:41:07 seangrove [n=user@adsl-71-135-108-207.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:21 tcr: so the (let.....) sexp is atomic? 20:41:49 it's more than that 20:41:58 more than that? 20:42:11 rullie: Afaik, most lisp impleemntations with multithreading keep maintain dynamic bindings for each thread separately. 20:42:24 i see 20:42:29 -!- demmel1 [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:42:32 this is the case for sbcl and ccl. I believe ditto for clisp and maybe LW? 20:42:47 http://www.google.com/search?q=threads+special+variables hits the documentation for several CLs 20:42:49 Pete_R [n=quassel@78.96.132.194] has joined #lisp 20:42:56 -!- ruediger_ is now known as ruediger 20:43:07 what if i have this: (let ((*standard-output* my-stream)) (eval '(print text))) <- would print use my-stream? 20:43:13 http://www.scieneer.com/scl/doc/symbols.html : Special variables have a global value which is shared across all threads, and a dynamic value which is local to each thread. 20:45:03 ayrnieu: hmm, so it's not thread-safe 20:45:29 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 20:46:02 why did you conclude that? 20:46:25 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:46:28 the site says global variables are shared.. 20:46:50 -!- Shamiq [n=Adium@wireless-165-124-97-214.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has left #lisp 20:47:35 billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-213-82.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:45 -!- egoz [n=Egoz@118.96.226.152] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:47:58 lisp won't make your app thread-safe. 20:48:07 but most likely, your lisp will make its own internals thread-safe. 20:48:17 or rather.. hopefully :) 20:48:30 rullie: let makes a new binding 20:48:33 -!- ziga` [n=user@93-103-208-177.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:49:05 and it's shared only in one thread 20:49:06 k i'm just gonna try it and see if it works lol 20:49:15 stassats: ok 20:49:22 milanj- [n=milan@93.87.193.237] has joined #lisp 20:50:27 beach: Hey, I had a look at the flexichain documentation (in regard to implementing an editor). I owe you an apology, the docs are indeed very clear. I don't know what I did last time I looked at them... 20:50:49 beach: So: sorry 20:51:07 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-100-100.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 20:51:51 hmmhmm, it appears to be working, awesome :) 20:51:59 thanks folks 20:54:01 it's interesting... I'd thought that the print in eval would use the original standard-output instead of the newly binded one 20:54:54 hmm, was the ANSI CL standard chaired by Steele? I think not 20:55:00 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6DC27.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:01 eval has null-lexical environment, but not dynamic 20:55:09 the Wikipedia Scheme page mentions Steele 20:55:45 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6DC27.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 20:56:04 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:56:58 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.78.176] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:57:28 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X3J13 20:58:15 that mentions Robert Mathis 20:58:54 right, and only says that Steele served on the committee. 20:59:43 HET4 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:59:48 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.58.146] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:02:16 In the early years it was Fahlman -- that may be before ANSI though 21:02:58 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-131-10.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:03:39 -!- metasyntax` [n=taylor@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:05:49 that was before X3J13 21:06:08 -!- HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:09:58 milanj [n=milan@79.101.138.150] has joined #lisp 21:10:09 -!- Demosthenex [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 21:14:33 c|mell [n=cmell@194.106.199.204] has joined #lisp 21:15:54 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-140-191-199.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:16:53 -!- milanj- [n=milan@93.87.193.237] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:18:08 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-246-230.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:12 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:19:27 -!- morphling [n=stefan@89.15.141.171] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:20:57 -!- Pete_R [n=quassel@78.96.132.194] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:21:07 -!- HET4 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:22:21 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:23:54 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:24:02 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-131-10.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:30:17 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-242-194.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 21:31:13 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-198-230.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:32:53 Fare [n=Fare@24.218.127.11] has joined #lisp 21:33:19 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 21:35:17 -!- cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:38:08 ziga` [n=user@93-103-208-177.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:35 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 21:43:53 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:48:21 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:49:02 assembly is too difficult, and those in asm think C and lisp is too difficult 21:49:36 francogrex: hove you ever seen that diagram about how coders think about their 'rank' wrt other languages? 21:49:51 no where is it? 21:50:08 francogrex: sigh, I was hoping you just knew it, if I find it again, I'll show it to you 21:50:13 it was supposed to be funny 21:50:20 Dammit, I'm curious too 21:50:29 lisp was on top, next to C, I believe (or ASM) 21:50:35 the "far side" sorta cartoon? 21:50:55 no, it looked like a real graph 21:51:36 . If you find it, link please. anyway, I will never be able to learn asm. sigh :( 21:52:00 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.82] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:53:16 francogrex: I don't think that asm coders find C difficult... rather there's often a mentality that a more "high-level" language is less efficient. 21:54:00 mstevens [n=mstevens@82.132.136.203] has joined #lisp 21:54:11 there are no assembly coders unfamiliar with high-level languages 21:54:20 it's 21st century, ffs 21:54:46 I think that asm coders find C difficult to understand properly. 21:55:02 They tend to try to understand it in terms of the assembly produced by their favourite compiler. 21:55:13 Adlai: I had the idea that asm and then C were most efficient because of the low levelness... 21:55:32 I wish people wouldn't use meaningless terms like "low level". 21:55:42 Until I suddenly understood that it actually just boils down to the quality of the compiler 21:55:43 low levelitude 21:55:57 low level of abstraction from hardware 21:55:58 why not 21:56:16 But then again, I'm an idiot. Thankfully, recognised this fact soon enough 21:56:25 *I* recognised... 21:56:41 -!- TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:56:53 So I could with good conscience go from C to lisp ;) 21:57:29 you can write C in any language 21:57:30 From which hardware? 21:57:43 from the one on your desk 21:57:49 And which hardware is that? 21:57:52 *Adlai* isn't next to any desk 21:57:54 Adlai, I know, it's the reverse: high level language coders find asm difficult to understand. at least i know I will be dead before I learn anu good asm coding 21:57:58 And what relationship does it have to C? 21:58:21 lispm: elaborate 21:58:40 are we going to play definition games tonight 21:58:50 side effects, imperative control flow, etc. 21:59:15 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:28 francogrex, Sikander: http://blogs.msdn.com/blogfiles/steverowe/WindowsLiveWriter/ProgrammingLanguageHierarchy_1489F/programmer_hierarchy%5B7%5D.gif 21:59:29 Oh, ok 21:59:33 varjag: ooh sounds fun how do we play 21:59:40 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:59:48 francogrex: I found that it helped me to look at disassemblies of code which I'd write, and keep handy some references for my CPU. That's taught me as much asm as I'd want to understand (right now, at least) 22:00:02 I always thought that an arc is missing in that diagram 22:00:09 from Lisp to Lisp 22:00:20 lispm: :P 22:00:24 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:00:35 |Soulman| [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:38 madnificent: great! 22:00:49 -!- redblue [i=star@207.253.108.39] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:01:00 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 22:01:10 We're (by ourselves perceived to be) superior to everybody \o/ 22:01:12 But I thought that Python programmers thought they were superior to Ruby programmers? 22:01:30 Sikander: we definitely think we're better than those perl scum 22:01:51 I agree, dammit. After Perl-ing for years, Python was an eye opener 22:02:01 why don't we look down on ruby? 22:02:03 (but then I didn't know lisp yet) 22:02:14 madnificent: Ruby isn't worth looking down on... 22:02:24 I think because ruby is unaware of "non-web" languages (as the footnote says) 22:02:31 Adlai: ahhh, there had to be a reason 22:02:46 I like Adlai's reason :) 22:02:54 heh, C++ is getting shat on 22:02:55 ;-) 22:03:02 I'm liking clojure at the moment, I wonder where it fits in. 22:03:14 above Java 22:03:21 mstevens: IN THE VERY DEPTHS OF HELL ITSELF 22:03:21 mstevens: no you don't... you've been brainwashed! 22:03:22 In my experience, other languages look down on lisp 22:03:29 _all_ other languages! 22:03:37 minion chant 22:03:40 Sikander: they don't really look on/at Lisp... 22:03:41 Sikander: no they don't... they don't understand it 22:03:48 madnificent: but but lisp! nice syntax! STM! concurrency! ponies! 22:03:50 wgl: colon 22:03:53 Sikander: they read the Lisp books secretly 22:04:08 mstevens: alient ponies? 22:04:10 minion: chant 22:04:10 MORE HIGH 22:04:14 mstevens: "nice"? 22:04:16 Well, I always hear "but it's an ancient scripting language!" 22:04:25 D'oh! 22:04:41 Adlai: okay, not hugely nice. 22:04:44 I do notice that being a 'lisper' gives me a name of some sort... some kind of massochist thing that is apparently something authorative 22:04:54 Sikander: like Alan Kay (of Smalltalk) considered AMOP to be the best book in a decade, unfortunately using Lisp so nonbody understands it 22:05:09 heh 22:05:32 I think that python programmers also look down on C++... 22:05:53 with horror 22:05:53 Sikander: I think everyone who doesn't do C++ does. 22:06:14 lol i love end 22:06:17 I did C++ and I still wake up screaming at night... 22:06:25 The bit I find interesting about C++ is that i've found the people who use it are the least willing of any programmers to consider alternatives. 22:06:27 i know guy who had that opinion once 22:06:36 well, anyway we digressed, though in a nice conversation 22:06:37 And HTML *IS* a language, dammit! ;) 22:06:46 ya 'markup' 22:06:47 Sikander: but is it a programming language? 22:06:51 its in the name 22:06:56 heheh 22:07:04 PHP isn't a language, it's a preprocessor 22:07:12 shadowhywind [n=shadowhy@adsl-76-199-163-42.dsl.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:12 PHP = "PHP Hypertext Preprocessor" 22:07:16 is assembly a language? 22:07:17 madnificent: I heard this word "web coder" the other day... 22:07:18 I find it especially interesting that the C++ committee works on making C++ even more complicated 22:07:30 is that the new word for web designer, or is that ajax stuff? 22:07:33 francogrex: assembly is technical details of a physical machine... 22:07:38 php is an abomination, even to php'ers 22:07:56 lispm: They (like gavino) are learning about lambdas. 22:07:59 that's why i want to learn it. i want that intimate connection with the machine 22:08:06 Dammit, I did perl with the CGI thing, and loved it (well, no...) 22:08:12 oh dear i am looking down on languages and i can't even program well in anything above HTML 22:08:23 Sikander: code != programming maybe? that is to say: coding somewhat means making things possible-uninterpretable for humans. Programming means automating things, I think... non-native though 22:08:33 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:08:53 madnificent: hmmm, good point 22:09:07 is copying and tweaking PHP code actually 'programming'? 22:09:09 VB is a little high, doesn't everyone look down on that 22:09:16 madnificent: what do you mean "possible-uninterpretable"?? 22:09:32 Guthur: I don't think COBOL programmers know that it exists 22:09:35 lol AJAX becomes a programming language 22:09:43 well, where lies the border between hacking and programming? 22:09:52 Adlai: it is not meant for direct human consumption. For instance: the coding of a message, could mean cryptographically securing it. 22:09:54 COBOL is haunting me its been mentioned twice today 22:09:56 levy pasted "Are you brave enough?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89468 22:10:17 madnificent: I think you're mixing together different meanings of the word "code" 22:10:46 might as well be. Please explain with respect to my comment to sikander 22:11:10 -!- drgnvale [n=acristin@209.16.73.144] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:11:53 pkhuong, is this (my previous paste) the reason you suggested that paper to me yesterday? 22:11:58 "to code" = "to program", "to encode" = "to encrypt" 22:12:08 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.158.232.149] has joined #lisp 22:12:18 I think madnificent made a valid point. Coding can mean anything, from cryptographically securing, to coding so that a computer can understand it. Programming is actually making a recipe or algorithm that must be followed by some automaton 22:12:21 the noun "code" does have a meaning both in programming and cryptography, though 22:12:45 exactly, so why not the verb 22:12:51 so coding would be more general than programming? 22:12:59 *Adlai* doesn't see why this is at all relevant to the discussion and drops it 22:13:17 Adlai: I'm genuinely interested 22:13:17 I think as colloquially by programmers, coding = programming. 22:13:28 as colloquially used by ... 22:14:40 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:15:22 madnificent: I just think that 'code' and any similar ambiguities mean their programming-related meanings in here, unless somebody is specifically discussing, say, Ironclad or SB-MD5 22:16:01 anyone here a climacs devel? 22:16:34 devel, hhh i like that 22:16:40 dev then 22:17:06 or maybe I should say "climacs coder" 22:17:16 Sikander: Maybe! 22:17:22 code monkey 22:17:23 Sikander: maybe you should define an abbrev for 'developer' 22:17:44 :( 22:17:52 Sikander: What do you want to know? 22:18:06 francogrex: why, of course assembly is the language 22:18:15 problem is there is one for each architecture 22:18:22 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:18:33 -!- ziga` [n=user@93-103-208-177.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:18:33 hello beach 22:18:39 hello madnificent 22:18:50 beach: Well, I guess you are the guy to ask, since it's in regard to flexichain. What is the use of sentence-beginnings and sentence-endings as flexichains? I'm not sure I understand the code there... 22:19:18 Adlai: hay Adlai if you have a few moments free, could I get your help again? 22:19:34 shadowhywind: no you can not 22:19:51 Sikander: those are definitely not Flexichain primitives. 22:19:53 shadowhywind: apparently not, I guess!? (sure, go ahead) 22:20:03 francogrex: c abstracts away some of cpu grit, but still (mostly) retaining the underlying memory model and hardware mapped primitive types 22:20:10 shadowhywind: Adlai is currently under a white-magic spell forcing him to work only on sheeple and related libraries 22:20:14 madnificent: but but but but... i need help! hehe 22:20:16 Sikander: that's in the text-syntax, right? 22:20:23 Yes 22:20:31 *Adlai* dangles a Ruby project in madnificent's face 22:20:38 nooooooos 22:20:42 shadowhywind pasted "tree traversal" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89469 22:20:42 Adlai: you have a ruby project? 22:20:54 *Adlai* hopes to port it to CL soon 22:21:02 I'm trying to get a feel of how one would go about making a buffer for a text editor. Would the entire text be one flexichain, or would it be more useful to only use chunks, or ... 22:21:16 Adlai: I figured out my tree traversal problem, However It keeps spitting back an error (about listp) 22:21:22 Adlai: but the chart claims that you don't know CL then (my mind explodes now). I have some rails plugins on github, I think 22:21:31 beach: in text-syntax, there are three instances of a standard-flexichain made. I don't exactly understand their use 22:21:54 madnificent: nothing rails related, just "Text files go in... pies come out. Text pies!" 22:21:55 Adlai: If I break the program about and do everything in small steps it works, but the overal program wont work, any ideas (it will probably be a simple fix like yesterday) 22:22:09 shadowhywind: hmm, this is really vague. Code? 22:22:11 Sikander: I think using a simple gap-buffer will get you very far very cheaply. And if you use a linked list of gap-buffers, with one per line, then you can pretty much handle all text files well. 22:22:15 tastie text pies? 22:22:31 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.158.232.149] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"] 22:22:33 Adlai: shadowhywind pasted "tree traversal" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89469 22:22:41 Adlai: what does it do? 22:22:53 Athas: so not a flexichain of flexichains (where one chain is the text in lines and the other is the characters in a line)? 22:23:01 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:15 madnificent: it frobs numerical data 22:23:25 Sikander: well, a flexichain is pretty much a gap buffer, isn't it? So a flexichain of flexichains would work well. 22:23:25 the frobbing itself isn't numerically intensive, though 22:24:02 Sikander: watch your identation... 22:24:05 Athas: Would it make sense? Or would it be bad design? And would one flexichain for one buffer or file be good? 22:24:07 eh, that was for shadowhywind 22:24:22 Adlai: ? 22:24:26 ah 22:24:28 Sikander: sorry :( 22:24:31 :) 22:24:55 Adlai: do you mean between the if, and let? 22:25:01 Sikander: really, with modern computers, even a single dumb gap-buffer would suffice for more than 99% of cases. 22:25:02 yeah 22:25:06 Sikander: Listen to Athas! 22:25:18 it's just not standard 22:25:22 beach: I'm listening! :) 22:25:24 Sikander: one flexichain per buffer is OK, that's only going to be bad for (very) large buffers with lots of jumping around while editing. 22:25:27 Athas: and welcome back by the way! 22:25:38 beach: oh, I pop in whenever there's an interesting discussion! 22:25:42 shadowhywind: it makes me suspect that you're not using SLIME, and wonder why 22:25:54 Athas: Ah, so maybe I should ditch the line-oriented approach as in ed 22:26:01 Athas: I have noticed that, yes :) 22:26:18 Adlai: mentally noted. I think somehow it didn't transfer right when i copied it to my notepad 22:26:36 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:26:44 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.54.174] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:26:50 Adlai: and I have never heard of slime, so that probably has some reason to it, hehe 22:26:51 Adlai: are you trying to flatten the tree? 22:26:56 Athas: So why does climax use three of these chains? What are they used for? 22:27:06 sykopomp: don't ask me, ask shadowhywind 22:27:10 err 22:27:14 minion: tell shadowhywind about SLIME 22:27:15 shadowhywind: please see SLIME: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/SLIME 22:27:15 shadowhywind: are you trying to flatten the tree? 22:27:17 sykopomp: and yes I believe I am 22:27:31 lol! minion! 22:27:32 shadowhywind: flatten sounds like homework. Is this homework? 22:27:46 minion: thanks 22:27:56 Sikander: are you sure Climacs doesn't just use a single flexichain per buffer? 22:27:57 you're welcome 22:28:01 still love that name. 22:28:03 shadowhywind: oh god you've got tab characters in there, that's why the indenting is borked 22:28:09 I will not lie, yes it is a stupid homework, hehe. But I am not asking how to. Just trying to solve a syntax issue 22:28:19 Sikander: I mean, to represent buffer contents. Flexichains are a general data structure, they're used for various other things too. 22:28:21 Athas: I don't know, I'm looking at text-syntax 22:28:44 Athas: Ok, but I was just wondering what the others are used for... 22:28:59 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:29:04 Athas: Anyway, thank you very much for the advice. I'll use one chain per buffer. 22:29:15 Sikander: right, you're looking at the wrong thing. Text-syntax is a parser for natural languages. 22:29:24 Athas: Aaaahhh.... 22:29:26 Adlai annotated #89469 "properly indented" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89469#1 22:29:26 Sikander: it uses flexichains for storing the parse results. 22:29:32 Sikander: you want to look at buffer.lisp. 22:29:35 demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-201-117.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:54 Sikander: Also, that's a part of McCLIM, in the Drei subdirectory. 22:29:56 shadowhywind: now, we need a better name for that, and we need to understand what exactly it's trying to do. 22:30:06 Can you provide an example input and what the output should look like? 22:30:10 s/look like/be 22:30:11 / 22:30:53 Adlai: if you look after the defun there is an (append(list (bin-tree-node-left '(+ a b).... 22:31:08 Athas: ? I don't see buffer.lisp. Hmmm... 22:31:15 the input should be '(+ a b) output should be (a + b) 22:31:29 Ah, in drei, ok 22:31:38 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:32:01 Sikander: Climacs is a somewhat thin wrapper around the McCLIM editor component, which is called Drei. 22:32:27 Sikander: Climacs just has a bunch of extra syntax definitions and a GUI for managing more than one buffer. Drei is the program that does redisplay, buffer representation, etc. 22:32:57 shadowhywind: hmm, that's not a very clear example. What is it supposed to do? In English? 22:33:05 Athas: Ok, thanks. Hmmm, I need to rethink stuff then. I might need to use the same approach as climacs, but with a ncurses backend and a modal approach... 22:33:16 *lispm* is still at Zwei 22:33:23 does "inorder" mean it's converting prefix to infix? 22:33:27 Adlai: hehe sorry, its suppsed to take a infix statement and print out the postfix version 22:33:32 Athas: The pet project is to implement vi in cl :) Thanks for your help 22:33:46 Sikander: the buffer implementation (and the incremental reparsing) is completely independent of the UI. 22:34:09 shadowhywind: I'm not sure you've got the terms right. Your example is prefix => infix 22:34:12 Adlai: and yah I know, i should rename the function, when i first created it, it seamed better to say binarytree with inorder traversal 22:34:13 shadowhywind: something like (defmacro make-infix (func arg &rest args) `(arg func ,@args)) 22:34:28 Athas: Does this incremental reparsing mean/include things like completion and highlighting? 22:34:38 shadowhywind: missed , before arg and func 22:34:44 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@82.132.136.203] has quit [] 22:35:01 madnificent: let's stay with functions... 22:35:14 crap! I got my terms flipped, Adlai your right. I meant to say take a prefix statement to infix 22:35:29 shadowhywind: ok, first off, I think you're calling LIST too much 22:35:32 Sikander: no, completion and highlighting are consumers of the data produced by the parser(s). 22:35:39 Demosthenes [n=demo@204.52.135.62] has joined #lisp 22:35:53 Sikander: and completion is highly tied to the UI paradigm, while highlighting is heavily tied to the graphics library. 22:35:53 Adlai: that was one of my latest "fixes" hehe 22:36:00 Adlai: (defun make-infix (list) `(,(second list) ,(first list) ,@(cddr list))) ? 22:36:00 Athas: Ok, well, I guess I'll have to take a _really_ close look at climacs 22:36:14 Sikander: you could probably adapt the Climacs redisplay engine for ncurses too. It's OK, but not stellar. 22:36:35 madnificent: this looks like it needs to recurse, though 22:36:36 Athas: or make an ncurses backend for mcclim :) 22:36:48 Maybe this now becomes more urgent... 22:36:51 shadowhywind: why don't you post the changed code? 22:36:57 varjag: i know. but i'm too dense/old to learn to code in asm properly; i feel like loser 22:37:17 Adlai: that is the latest code 22:37:22 *madnificent* only ever did it the other way around 22:37:23 shadowhywind: oh, ok 22:37:28 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:37:55 *francogrex* says goodnight to all. see you lat 22:38:03 later 22:38:09 -!- francogrex [n=user@188.31-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:38:10 shadowhywind: you've got two functions, also 22:38:16 bin-tree-inorder and bin-tree-inorder2 22:38:39 Athas: Thanks a lot for your help, greatly appreciated. 22:38:41 Adlai: ok so apparently that isn't the "latest" code 22:39:08 also, your code fails on non-lists 22:39:11 Adlai: if you can just mentally change the two bin-tree-inorder to bin-tree-inorder2 that would be great, or I can repost the code 22:39:19 ok 22:39:21 Sikander: right, I'm pretty sure an ncurses backend for McCLIM is very feasible, but that would really not be the path of least resistance if you want to make a Vim clone. 22:39:31 Sikander: McCLIM is really halfway an Emacs creation kit. 22:39:47 -!- seangrove [n=user@adsl-71-135-108-207.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:40:05 I still haven't figured out a nice way to copy out of emacs (so I had to just manually type it) 22:40:17 Athas: Hum... I had great plans (for the next 200 years, that is) to make a mcclim vi as wel 22:40:19 well 22:40:26 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:40:38 together with an ncurses vi 22:41:22 -!- silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-100-244.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:41:26 shadowhywind: is this specifically only for (op arg1 arg2) => (arg1 op arg2), or do you need to handle multiple arguments? 22:42:00 gonzojive_ [n=red@171.66.89.225] has joined #lisp 22:42:01 Athas: Do you mean that Drei is really halfway an Emacs creation kit, or the *whole* of McCLIM? 22:42:09 Adlai: just (op exp1 exp2) 22:42:36 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-168-72.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:38 ok, and what are exp1 and exp2? Are they either atoms or another expression like (op exp3 exp4) ? 22:42:49 form my little reading of the Climacs code I found it quite good to read 22:43:11 Sikander: (Mc)CLIM provides a default command-loop that is more geared towards Emacs-style than vi-style (as it's not modal). Additionally, most of the McCLIM hackers have used it to write Emacs-like programs, so the oral tradition is all in that direction. 22:43:18 Adlai: could be either I believe 22:43:28 Sikander: but I don't think McCLIM is any more hostile to a vi-style UI than any other random UI framework. 22:43:30 shadowhywind: ok, so you need to handle atoms. Right now your code dies on those. 22:43:34 Athas: D'oh! No McCLIM vi for me! 22:43:44 Adlai: incase of something longer like '(* (+ a b) ( + c d)) 22:43:56 Sikander: well, you can override the default command loop. Climacs does that to make it more Emacs-like. 22:43:57 Adlai: yup that part I know of, hehe 22:44:00 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:44:17 Athas: Well, that's why it's a pet project. It's probably never getting off the ground enough to be usable :) 22:45:15 good night 22:45:21 Maybe for now I should stick to ncurses only and don't think about McCLIM... 22:45:23 Sikander: Hacking on interactive Lisp programs is certainly great fun, whether they're CLIM or not! 22:45:40 Athas: StumpWM! 22:46:01 Athas: It definately is 22:46:08 For example! And for extra thrill, if you mess up StumpWM, all your programs die. 22:46:12 That's why I didn't hack Climacs with Climacs. 22:46:15 ugh 22:46:21 hehe 22:46:24 "definitely" 22:46:48 -!- serichsen [n=svante@hmbg-4d066e04.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["good night"] 22:47:34 Adlai: this might not be the right "terminology" but how would one convert an atom to a list? 22:47:34 wow, was that the only spelling mistake I made in the entire dialog, or was it just the most horrible one? 22:47:46 Adlai annotated #89469 "helpful auxiliary function" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89469#2 22:47:55 -!- jdz [n=jdz@84.237.142.223] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 22:48:21 Adlai: How does stumpwm compare to awesome? Do you know? 22:48:58 pkhuong: Found the cmucl sse2 bug. The vops for mixing complex and float operations didn't clear the imaginary part of the float reg. 22:49:02 Sikander: not sure, I've only ever used gnome and stump 22:49:09 Wow 22:49:30 Adlai: those are quite... different... Or do you even mean together? 22:49:42 Sikander: probably a better overall wm, but I like stumpwm's way of doing core things. 22:49:59 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:50:25 I need to give it a try... I have this problem in awesome that some programs sometimes steal focus when their content is updated. 22:50:26 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:32 Sikander: nope, I started using Linux on Ubuntu with Gnome (the default), and switched distro and window manager together when I got tired of Ubuntu. 22:50:37 I don't know if this is a WM problem or something else 22:50:58 Adlai: well, gnome <--> stump... those are quite the opposite of each other! 22:50:59 WM problem. 22:51:14 So stump it is :0 22:51:15 Programs can only steal focus against the will of the WM if they explicitly break free of management. 22:51:16 :) 22:51:55 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 22:53:02 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 22:53:20 man. It would be nice if sloccount actually counted docstrings as comments/documentation. 22:53:29 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-4-140.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 22:53:47 -!- Fare [n=Fare@24.218.127.11] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:54:29 shadowhywind: still here? 22:55:00 rtoym: I found it simpler to always clear unused slots; also helps avoid partial register stalls. 22:55:14 Adlai: yah I am still here 22:55:29 You need to deal with the case of an atom separately 22:56:26 I suggest you use a COND form, with one clause for when form is an atom, one for when it's a three-element list, and an error clause. 22:57:06 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9810.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:57:39 Thanks for all the help Athas 22:57:42 Goodnight! 22:57:44 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:58:55 Adlai: ok, thanks, will see what I can come up with 22:59:09 also, I suggest you use destructuring-bind 22:59:50 destructuring-bind? 23:00:04 Adlai annotated #89469 "dbind example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89469#3 23:00:51 thats a bit clearner then the append+cons 23:01:29 yes :) 23:01:37 minion: memo for levy: in general (especially without sealing or with a very flat hierarchy), the approach in generate-discrimination-net-... is hopelessly exponential in the number of methods (since the set of applicable methods is almost the powerset of methods). When a certain limit of cases is reached, PCL aborts and switches to a more dynamic approach (cache and slow-pathed lookup), iiuc. 23:01:37 Remembered. I'll tell levy when he/she/it next speaks. 23:03:15 shadowhywind: you now have enough to write a working version... 23:03:43 (bin-tree-inorder '(+ (* a b) (/ c d))) => ((A * B) + (C / D)) 23:04:27 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:05:21 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:23 Adlai: well just see if I have enough.. hehe I will find some half-backwards way of doing it... hehe 23:08:39 shadowhywind: well, paste your version, we'll see if it works. Also make sure that it handles invalid input nicely. 23:08:58 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 23:10:51 Adlai: I know its very bad programming, but I dont think I have to worry bout invaild inputs, hehe 23:11:14 -!- lispm [n=joswig@f054052117.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 23:12:03 how does that add up!? 23:12:20 If you know it's bad programming... you should worry about not checking your inputs. 23:12:34 ie, you should be worried if you don't check. 23:13:08 true 23:13:27 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@151.81.129.124] has joined #lisp 23:14:33 also for curiosty, this one is totally personal wondering. if you want to pass multiple variables to a function, would it be (defun test(arg1 arg2 arg3...) 23:14:36 hello 23:14:55 shadowhywind: do you mean more than one, or a varying number of arguments? 23:15:16 (defun foo (&rest args) args) => FOO 23:15:19 (foo 1 2 3) => (1 2 3) 23:15:33 Adlai: more then one, say I just want to pass 3 args to a function 23:15:45 and k, thanks 23:16:18 you can also do (defun foo (a b c) (+ a b c)) 23:17:32 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@171.66.89.225] has quit [] 23:22:28 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:23:58 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [] 23:26:16 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:26:57 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 23:27:34 -!- nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:27:58 right. i've got an object i pass a large list to a named slot during make-instance. it apparently makes a copy of this large list, so when i clear my original it still has it. how could i make a pointer there? i need the list once at creation time, but can't delete it until after every constructor has finished 23:28:12 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:28:35 so either i pass it a ?pointer? and clear it later and it loses its reference, or i have an after after contructor to purge the copy 23:30:03 is there a sensible way of capturing *standard-output* 23:31:03 (setf *error-output* (open "/dev/null" :direction :output :element-type 'character :IF-EXISTS :OVERWRITE)) 23:31:10 (setf *standard-error* (open "/dev/null" :direction :output :element-type 'character :IF-EXISTS :OVERWRITE)) 23:31:10 you could do that 23:31:23 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:31:30 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:32:46 thanks sorry i actually should have looked a CLHS more closely i just found what i need 23:38:02 Demosthenes: what are you trying to do exactly? 23:38:48 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:39:02 Demosthenes: (make-broadcast-stream) is way easier to write (and maybe results in faster output) 23:39:15 Guthur: with-output-to-string? 23:39:33 if you have a class with slots that have initargs, then arguments to make-instance go right into the slots 23:39:50 antifuchs ya thats what i found 23:39:59 still looking at it though 23:40:31 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 23:40:31 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.138.150] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:42:16 Adlai: ok, i'm passing a list of structs to the make-instance 23:42:32 so that has a symbol out in the repl, i read some files int othe structs and have a list 23:42:37 i pass that 23:42:37 later, i nil the symbol 23:42:45 the obj still has a full copy in its slot 23:43:06 these are large enough if i get a few tens of objects, i'll eat a huge chunk of ram (100's of megs) 23:43:25 so either i passed it by ref and the GC keeps it alive until i nil all pointers to it 23:43:34 oh, wait, thats it isn't it 23:43:49 or it copied it (my initial assumption) 23:44:49 the list is needed during obj build/init, but not afterward, but all inherited inits must run before its wiped 23:48:43 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 23:49:05 redblue [i=star@ppp178.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:49:53 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.154.92.124] has joined #lisp 23:50:51 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:41 seangrove [n=user@adsl-71-135-108-207.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:46 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:51:58 composite [n=composit@78.180.87.133] has joined #lisp 23:51:59 beach: herep 23:53:12 -!- composite [n=composit@78.180.87.133] has quit [Client Quit] 23:54:38 composite [n=composit@78.180.87.133] has joined #lisp 23:55:39 pkhuong: So far, it's the only one place where this happens. What's a partial register stall? 23:56:03 p_l: yes. 23:57:17 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 23:57:55 back during discussion about font rendering, you mentioned that the font used by emacs in your screenshot was made by you. Is it per chance in TTF/OTF? :) 23:58:09 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.154.92.124] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"] 23:58:17 rtoym: when you write to only part of the register and then operate on the whole register. That tends to mess with the pipeline. 23:58:59 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:59:12 gonzojive_ [n=red@DNab422133.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp