00:04:10 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 00:07:52 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-67-160-236-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:31 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 00:10:22 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.249.234] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:10:22 milanj- [n=milan@93.86.215.93] has joined #lisp 00:11:05 good god working with legacy linux and limelights sucks 00:11:19 -!- the_unmaker [n=g@w005.z209031033.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:13:23 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-10-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:14:15 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:15:33 bye! o/ 00:15:35 -!- x2cast [n=alvaro@43.232.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has left #lisp 00:16:21 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:17:31 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E1D8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:17:56 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.116.131] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:20:55 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.249.234] has joined #lisp 00:21:09 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 00:21:56 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:22:54 -!- GrayMagiker [n=steve@c-68-54-2-128.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:27:14 gaze_ [n=gaze@169.231.22.122] has joined #lisp 00:29:02 -!- Osaka [n=yuki@pool-71-100-33-10.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:30:13 Is anyone familiar with the state of the mac ppc SBCL implementation? Latest functional seems to be 22. Unfortunately, I need a feature from 1.0.29. 00:31:12 "seems to be"? 00:31:47 -!- cvandusen [n=user@99-166-72-116.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:33:17 what part of "If a binary of this version of SBCL is not available for your platform, or if you'd like to customize the binary, download the source and follow the directions for compiling it" is unclear? 00:33:30 (not trying to be snippy, I'm really curious) 00:35:02 jsnell: understood. compiling 0.30 fails, as does 0.29. 00:35:14 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:37:42 ziga` [n=user@BSN-143-132-35.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:26 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 00:39:29 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:39:49 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 00:41:41 jsnell: with 1.0.30, get "some of the contrib modules did not build" sb-introspect. This was second try--removed threading, and got this error. 00:42:44 -!- masm [n=masm@bl9-115-197.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:43:16 quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has joined #lisp 00:45:20 jsnell: if a ppc build bot is needed, perhaps I can set mine up. 00:46:39 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-39-165.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:47:17 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-rsdvdzrrigrutlvj] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:47:22 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.197.246] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 00:47:28 I believe that was fixed in 1.0.30.39 00:49:35 source for 1.0.32 can be downloaded from http://sourceforge.net/projects/sbcl/files/ (looks like Xof forgot to update the web page after making the latest release) 00:50:39 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 00:52:07 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 00:53:10 I want to create a list containing dynamically generated atoms (symbol-names). Something like (blah foo1) (blah foo2). Would using intern behave differently in any way than if they were typed literally? (i.e. `(blah ,(intern (format nil "foo~A" i)))) 00:54:31 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:55:42 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-142-49.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:56 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:58:50 gaze [n=gaze@169-231-109-210.wireless.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 01:00:02 yes, foo will be read as FOO under the default settings 01:00:14 while (intern "foo") would return the symbol foo 01:00:40 KingThomasV [n=KingThom@c-76-122-37-30.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:59 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 01:03:32 -!- demmel [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-203-107.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 01:03:51 -!- mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6BBF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:05:59 Under what circumstances would the two differ? 01:06:19 umm... under the circumstances I explained above? 01:06:31 -!- gaze_ [n=gaze@169.231.22.122] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:06:37 type 'foo at the repl 01:06:42 type (intern "foo") at the repl 01:07:50 FOO and |foo| are returned 01:08:13 well, there you go 01:09:46 Ah, sorry. I misread your reply to mean that they would give the same thing. 01:10:06 Is there something that *would* give me the same behaviour? 01:11:06 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 01:11:50 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 01:13:45 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 01:13:51 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:13:54 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:15:14 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:17:05 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-76-122-37-30.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:17:22 -!- seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:17:29 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-52.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 01:18:07 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:18:15 I'm basically trying to build an AST for a pre-existing DSL dynamically so I don't think (intern "foo") and 'foo will be treated the same, as is suggested by your example. 01:18:40 try (intern "FOO") 01:18:48 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 01:19:27 But FOO and |FOO| are not the same (?) 01:19:47 sbcl 01:19:56 *^&$^&%$ window focus 01:19:57 FOO and |foo| are not the same 01:20:21 piso: But FOO and |FOO| are? 01:21:04 foo and FOO are 01:21:20 quidnunc: yes 01:21:29 not really 01:21:30 ? 01:21:54 try: (eq 'FOO '|FOO|) 01:21:56 sorry they are 01:22:12 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-61-208.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:22:23 normally the symbol FOO won't be printed |FOO| 01:23:09 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 01:24:03 Thanks piso. 01:28:34 jsnell: I now get "error: #error "preserve_context-registers needs to be tweaked for non-86 Darwin" Think I will try without threading. This is with 10.0.32, ppc, darwin. 01:28:38 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:31:35 Kenjin_ [n=Kenjin@84.18.242.227] has joined #lisp 01:36:34 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:38:37 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:12 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:42:30 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 01:43:55 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-183.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:44:46 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-67-160-236-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:44:53 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-67-160-236-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:01 -!- milanj- [n=milan@93.86.215.93] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:48:40 RustyWheeler [n=kliese@130.102.79.48] has joined #lisp 01:48:43 -!- n2kra_ [i=ad3fd707@gateway/web/freenode/x-zmyvrmudstqycndl] has quit [] 01:49:53 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:50:35 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 01:57:30 -!- gaze [n=gaze@169-231-109-210.wireless.ucsb.edu] has quit [] 02:00:05 -!- ziga` [n=user@BSN-143-132-35.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:06:06 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:10:39 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 02:10:51 gaze [n=gaze@169-231-109-210.wireless.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 02:12:28 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.46] has joined #lisp 02:12:36 -!- sebaseba [n=carnieri@189.32.41.195] has quit [] 02:14:28 "decomposed UTF-8". What does that mean (for openmcl pathname strings)? 02:14:53 impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442135.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:18:40 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:21:21 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-140-191-199.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 02:22:07 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 02:22:10 drafael [n=tapio@118.90.128.167] has joined #lisp 02:25:42 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 02:28:30 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 02:32:10 -!- quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:40:42 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 02:45:37 jsnell: Same thing without threading in the features with 1.0.32. So the answer to your original question is I understand, fully, the part about building the binary as noted in the quote you supplied. Not unclear, just not working. I am now trying the whole process again from clean 0.32 directory without threading. 02:46:31 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:50:21 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-67-160-236-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:51:14 KatrinaTheLamia [n=rot13@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:30 -!- dreish [n=dreish@207.138.47.173] has quit [] 02:55:22 konr1 [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has joined #lisp 02:55:28 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:59:02 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-prvwdeeemdxgdmex] has joined #lisp 02:59:27 -!- RustyWheeler [n=kliese@130.102.79.48] has left #lisp 02:59:54 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:15:50 |stern| [n=seelenqu@tmo-101-109.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 03:17:24 dmm_ [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 03:19:07 -!- antifuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has quit 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joined #lisp 03:19:56 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 03:19:56 Guest67387 [n=user@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 03:19:56 Xof [n=crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 03:20:52 -!- chii [i=chii@freenode/bot/chii] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 03:21:39 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.254.207] has joined #lisp 03:22:53 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.254.207] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 03:29:12 how do I force cl-ppcre to do multi-line regexps? (create-scanner "
(.+)
" :multi-line-mode t) only returns the first line of the pre body 03:30:50 fusss: that's now what multiline does. You want dotall. 03:30:55 *not 03:31:13 .* 03:31:23 that's _actually_ what I have 03:31:33 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 03:32:08 (create-scanner "
\\s*(.*)
" :multi-line-mode t) 03:33:49 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-101-109.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:34:29 fusss: please continue not reading the documentation, as long you stop flailing in #lisp. 03:35:07 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-52.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 03:36:03 i have the docs before me, believe me 03:36:14 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-52.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Client Quit] 03:36:38 konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has joined #lisp 03:36:57 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-52.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 03:37:08 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 03:37:12 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-101-109.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 03:37:35 -!- konr1 [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:41:44 KatrinaTheLamia [n=rot13@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:25 envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 03:46:35 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:47:59 Good morning. 03:48:15 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442135.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 03:51:03 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@tmo-101-109.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:52:53 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:54:15 hey beach 03:54:44 meh, ended up using search and subseq 04:06:32 -!- gaze [n=gaze@169-231-109-210.wireless.ucsb.edu] has quit [] 04:08:00 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@88.73.222.52] has joined #lisp 04:11:24 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:15:58 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@88.73.203.95] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:18:31 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:22:21 -!- marioxcc [n=user@201.132.138.219] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:23:35 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No 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joined #lisp 05:02:28 Tordek [n=tordek@host63.190-137-242.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 05:02:28 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 05:02:28 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 05:02:28 cmeme [n=cmeme@boa.b9.com] has joined #lisp 05:02:28 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-173-48-104-141.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:28 Soulman [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 05:02:28 xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 05:02:28 tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #lisp 05:02:28 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 05:02:28 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1279405258.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 05:02:28 tvaalen [n=tvaal@209.9.227.203] has joined #lisp 05:02:28 erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 05:16:40 p0a pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89355 05:17:07 p0a [n=user@79.131.42.157] has joined #lisp 05:17:22 Hello I pasted some lisp yacc program, please help me 05:17:26 I think my mistake is in the grammar 05:18:26 -!- mdh [n=user@cpe-76-88-124-101.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:21:45 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:22:38 aren't you ashamed of being so quiet to a newbie question 05:24:00 fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:32 p0a: it's not a popular time for this channel 05:24:46 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 05:25:06 everyone is sleeping. 05:25:44 I was here ~7 hours ago 05:25:49 nobody helped :-( 05:25:56 you asked the same question? 05:26:04 yes 05:26:23 wel, sort of. the backtrace wasn't provided (but someone asked for it) and the code is only slightly modified, to be simpler 05:26:34 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 05:33:15 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:35:27 Harag [n=phil@41.213.72.166] has joined #lisp 05:36:01 morning 05:36:20 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 05:36:27 _3b: you around? 05:36:34 Hi, morning. Do you know how to use cl-yacc? 05:36:52 p0a: sorry 05:37:09 did not even know about tit till you started asking yesterday 05:37:38 do you have some time to spend learning it so you can help me? 05:38:35 p)a: not really but let me have a quick look at what it is about 05:39:15 Hmmm... It was a joke :P. 05:40:46 if you're interested just check out what yacc/lex is. cl-yacc just puts common lisp and yacc together. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yacc 05:40:54 " 05:40:54 "Jump to: navigation, search 05:41:14 Sorry for that. My clipboard sometimes ends up with garbage... The computer program yacc is a parser generator ..." 05:41:53 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 05:41:55 yeah read it 05:42:01 pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.58.146] has joined #lisp 05:42:17 well i am definatively not going to learn it in a day ;) 05:42:32 hehe yeah :P you're fired 05:42:53 well at least not this day :P 05:43:18 *p0a* will come again to ask about this but now it must go 05:43:24 bye 05:43:25 -!- p0a [n=user@79.131.42.157] has quit ["bye"] 05:44:09 lispm: how do different lisp implementations handle stack traces -vs- inline functions? 05:44:24 lispm: are there techniques to preserve stack trace info even if code was inlined? 05:44:39 lispm: I figured I'd ask you since this is probably something the lisp machines had :) 05:45:29 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:03 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:52:53 saikatc 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kejsaren seangrove pavelludiq Reaver1 gonzojive_ Harag G0SUB fatalnix1995 erg tvaalen rullie kleppari tessier xristos Soulman bohanlon cmeme pem Adrinael Tordek sykopomp qidush cods BrianRice sellout Dodek ve prip wlr lispm Jasko rread eno stoop esden cp2 OmniMancer gaze caoliver lpolzer_ KatrinaTheLamia seelenquell fe[nl]ix konr ia froydnj zbigniew nicktastic Borbus vsync hdurer_ raptelan qebab smithzv 06:18:59 -!- names: jyujin DrForr p_l rsynnott1 xian nasloc__ tychoish mle michaelw pragma_ Bucciarati Fade tltstc johs fawxtin arbscht _3b bfein REPLeffect fnordus beach schme jyujin_ lnostdal tsuru skeptomai|away phryk housel knobo frontiers Pepe_ Ginei_Morioka CrazyEddy Draggor EinarDog1in pepone moocow mornfall rlonstein hdurer__ tomoyuki28jp vandemar coyo ski ecraven daniel benny metasyntax Demosthenex dfox asksol quodlibetor ans fugue88 joast hypno Adamant 06:18:59 -!- names: rtoym spradnyesh dmm_ drafael huangjs xinming AntiSpamMeta Ralith kpreid ltriant antoszka Younder legumbre Summermute66 h3r3tic Sergio` Elench proq Fufie ejs peddie gz Xach s0ber Lycurgus fusss bulibuta anekos xan-afk spiaggia ljames koning_robot clog Axioplase_ araujo lharc herbieB phadthai metric cmm hsaliak_ pixel5_ ahaas retupmoca ampleyfly helge_ alexbobp Guest24708 borism TR2N lichtblau scode myrkraverk drewc nowhere_man lukjad007 Patzy 06:18:59 -!- names: joga mikezor male_terran ramus` piso tic mathrick _YKY_ djinni` JuanDaugherty spacebat_ dmiles_afk billstclair zeroish sytse ryepup cpt_nemo aja authentic stepnem Taggnostr dcrawford lisppaste bdowning leo2007 dmelani l_a_m dalkvist maskd Aisling cipher antifuchs ``Erik z0d acieroid Wombatzus boyscared m4thrick rbancroft tarbo yacin luis slava whoppix delYsid wgl ineiros blast_hardcheese fgtech qed koollman Buganini Douglish yahooooo mtd thijso 06:18:59 -!- names: rotty sepi rey_ mgr Khisanth egn setheus kuwabara2 Guest67387 ianmcorvidae srcerer ntd pkhuong vcgomes eihrul jrockway deepfire slather _3b` Xof literal bakkdoor Orest^bnc j0ni gonzojive felipe specbot minion rapacity jsnell hsaliak cow-orker r0bby foom looooop sjbach turbo24prg hoeq^ nickcave PissedNumlock itze pok guenthr guaqua codemonk1yx enn kloeri krappie bill` easyE hohum robewald dostoyevsky 06:23:53 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@63.196.107.132] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:23:58 -!- skeptomai|away [n=nnnnnncb@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Getting off stoned server - dircproxy 1.2.0"] 06:24:18 skeptomai|away [n=nnnnnnnc@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:15 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:27:39 *fusss* is loading 1.8 gigs, or 4 million records into sqlite3 (glutton for punishmend) 06:27:43 via clsql 06:28:07 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:28:37 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:31:50 demmel 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crashed screen and locked me out of the vps! 06:42:39 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 06:42:58 so much for 360meg eh 06:51:28 -!- tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit ["leaving"] 06:52:29 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:52:29 -!- boyscare1 is now known as boyscared 06:52:39 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 06:56:28 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:09:22 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:12:01 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229243209.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:12:59 Harag1 [n=phil@41.213.35.73] has joined #lisp 07:17:17 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:17:43 tessier [n=treed@216.105.40.113] has joined #lisp 07:18:24 mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6BBF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:30 hello 07:20:30 fjji [n=ojof@92.82.94.15] has joined #lisp 07:21:16 -!- Harag [n=phil@41.213.72.166] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:22:09 nipra [n=nipra@117.195.96.72] has joined #lisp 07:23:05 ehlo mrSpec 07:23:57 -!- fjji [n=ojof@92.82.94.15] has quit [Client Quit] 07:27:14 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 07:27:17 finally, whipping sqlite to shape 07:28:52 had to remove logging, the dribble file, sql-recording and had to replace cl-fad:list-directory with walk-directory. so far only monitoring progres via `du database.sqlite3` 07:33:41 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"] 07:34:31 redblue [i=star@ppp046.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 07:37:24 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.228] has joined #lisp 07:37:39 Younder [n=jthing@22.157.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 07:38:14 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 07:38:31 morphling [n=stefan@89.14.137.2] has joined #lisp 07:41:17 slava: if the Symbolics compiler inlines a function, there is no info for trace or stack backtraces added 07:41:49 -!- phryk [n=phryk@yggdrasil.phryk.net] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 07:42:38 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 07:43:08 slava: inlined function code will not be traceable and the original function call does not appear in a stack trace 07:43:47 aww 07:44:19 also, the Symbolics compiler is generally not very sophisticated 07:44:32 it ignores most declarations 07:45:03 the output is straight forward code for a kind of stack machine, the processor 07:45:19 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:45:29 -!- morphling [n=stefan@89.14.137.2] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:45:49 morphling [n=stefan@89.14.137.2] has joined #lisp 07:46:04 -!- Harag1 [n=phil@41.213.35.73] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:47:24 seangrov` [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:24 -!- mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6BBF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:47:52 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:48:23 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@80.14.131.214] has joined #lisp 07:48:34 good morning 07:49:23 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit ["Verlassend"] 07:50:23 Anonymous_ [i=a9e86c3d@gateway/web/freenode/x-hhbbsqsgucpvlvxq] has joined #lisp 07:50:33 -!- Anonymous_ [i=a9e86c3d@gateway/web/freenode/x-hhbbsqsgucpvlvxq] has left #lisp 07:51:08 is there any way to swap parens and brackets in Xkb? 07:51:54 *cmm* is wondering if there is a way to define new Xkb "options" without compiling the whole of xorg from source... 07:52:27 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 07:52:29 where is all this documented anyway, preferably human-readably? 07:52:55 god I hate the linux desktop in all its incarnations 07:54:04 people keep rewriting stuff to make it better and it only gets more obtuse, what's up with that? 07:54:15 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:54:31 (sorry about the OT) 07:54:41 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:56:00 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-2-226.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:56:48 hello mvilleneuve 07:57:11 -!- Guest44595 [n=Kenjin@84.18.242.227] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 07:57:46 ASau [n=user@host220-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:58:26 Axius [n=ojof@92.82.94.15] has joined #lisp 08:00:34 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@wavelan-12.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has joined #lisp 08:01:09 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:02:19 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:07:54 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-140-191-199.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:08:06 Harag [n=phil@41.213.24.102] has joined #lisp 08:08:28 -!- Harag [n=phil@41.213.24.102] has left #lisp 08:08:33 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:12:59 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.228] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:13:03 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.109] has joined #lisp 08:13:52 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-60-221.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:14:52 c|mell [n=cmell@95.58.48.7] has joined #lisp 08:17:00 i know it's late, but what is it with SQL Lite? Whatever happened to MySQL, which was a pretty good perormer for free, especially for heavy read activities? 08:17:45 hu? 08:17:51 What's the question? 08:18:30 Summermute66: sqlite is just one shared library and one file for a database 08:19:20 sqlite is an embedded database (e.g. no concurrent access, etc.), while mysql is a client/server database 08:19:33 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 08:19:37 any SBCL hacker know of a place where all the attributes for DEFKNOWN are documented? e.g. movable, flushable 08:20:10 I'm trying to call defun without macro expansion: (funcall (macro-function 'defun) '(defun f () 1) nil) But this sexp returns itself, I'm lost. 08:20:34 kuwabara2: how about macroexpand? 08:21:11 kuwabara2: or i don't understand what you want exactly... 08:22:00 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@wavelan-12.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:22:09 jdz: it has the same problem. (eval (macroexpand '(defun f () 1))) returns the same form as (macroexpand '(defun f () 1)), and the function F is still not defined. 08:22:36 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:23:02 jdz: oops sorry, my lisp was corrupted 08:24:19 (that's the problem when playing at the defun redefinition game) 08:24:39 kuwabara2: you're not supposed to redefine stuff in common-lisp package 08:25:13 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:25:37 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:25:48 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 08:26:21 -!- fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:27:07 fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:26 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:28:07 -!- Younder [n=jthing@22.157.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:28:20 ericjames [n=ericjeld@32.170.126.155] has joined #lisp 08:29:05 hi all. I'm new to lisp 08:29:29 I'm having some difficulty finding an example or explaination 08:29:56 an example or explanation of what? 08:30:01 of how to defun a function that can process as many arguments as you send to it 08:30:19 ayrnieu: sry, slow typist 08:30:21 (defun foo (&rest args) ...) 08:30:36 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 08:30:43 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:30:48 jdz: Ok, here is my project. I have a working lisp program, and I want to plug a debug machanism of my own, so I need to heek every defun. Is there a better way than override defun ? 08:31:05 s/heek/hook/ 08:31:19 jdz: thanks much. and how would I loop through the args to process each one? 08:31:35 ericjames: mapcar or dolist maybe 08:31:53 kuwabara2, you can make a new package (say called kuwabara-cl) and make that export all symbols from the cl package, but with its own version of defun 08:31:55 jdz: cheers. appreciated 08:32:06 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 08:32:27 kuwabara2: what do you mean by "debug mechanism of my own"? 08:32:29 c|mell: thanks, that's exactly what I want. 08:32:59 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 08:33:11 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 08:34:35 serichsen [n=svante@hmbg-4d06c63f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:40 good morning 08:36:18 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@wavelan-12.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has joined #lisp 08:37:26 kuwabara2, sounds like you are doing something severely suspect -- perhaps you want to hook into the fdefinition of the function after it has been defined (a la python decorators) -- like trace or profile 08:37:42 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:37:50 -!- serichsen [n=svante@hmbg-4d06c63f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 08:37:56 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:38:07 some lisp implementations also have variations of "advise" facility 08:38:37 -!- fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:39:08 fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:08 blist 08:39:16 *aerique* sighs 08:39:36 serichsen [n=svante@hmbg-4d06c63f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:09 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit ["Verlassend"] 08:40:10 that was a strange crash 08:40:44 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:40:46 Younder [n=jthing@84.202.157.22] has joined #lisp 08:41:45 I modified the date (one hour backwards) on an xterm inside stumpwm, and when I closed that xterm, stumpwm exited because it was "too confused" 08:43:06 an assert too far. 08:43:09 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:43:44 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has left #lisp 08:44:25 -!- fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:45:33 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 08:46:09 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:47:37 c|mell: yes, if I was able to rewrite trace, I think I could solve my problems. However, I can't seem to find how to analyse the definition of a function once it's been defun'ed. 08:47:54 ericjames pasted "fun w/ unfixed # of args" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89356 08:47:55 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:48:04 serichsen, what CL were you running stumpwm on? 08:48:45 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 08:49:32 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 08:49:47 fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:02 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 08:50:11 (I ask because I don't see "confused" in stumpwm or any library it depends on.) 08:50:12 ericjames: that's some weird code 08:50:25 jdz: I have pasted the contents of a very short lisp file. It is intended that the user type the name of a demographic (ie: gender, in this case), then types a space delimited list 08:51:26 jdz: the trouble is, read tries to get the second word as a variable unless it's quoted, would I need to define a macro to get around this? 08:51:31 ericjames, read lines from input and then break them up into lists. 08:51:41 ericjames: setting global variables is no justification for that 08:52:10 jdz: any advice would be appreciated, I'm only just learning to use lisp 08:52:39 ericjames, it doesn't try to read the second word as a variable. READ has already returned with the first word as a symbol by then, and then your lisp's REPL evaluates the next word. 08:52:45 ericjames: as ayrnieu suggested, use read-line to read a line of input, then do what you want with it 08:53:01 s/word/s-expression/g 08:53:19 thank you 08:53:39 ericjames: READ is for reading lisp objects 08:53:53 rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:54:09 ericjames: that's what your lisp implementation uses to read your code. 08:54:10 ayrnieu: sbcl -- it was an sbcl error message 08:55:42 Ah. At least it said 'sorry', then. 08:55:50 jdz: i see, and read line gets the line as a string rather than a lisp object 08:55:53 -!- fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:55:57 ericjames: yes 08:55:58 on behalf of stumpwm, please accept my apologies. 08:56:14 fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:21 ericjames: not that a string is also a lisp object :) 08:56:36 s/not/note 08:57:13 jdz: and I should then parse the string delimiting by spaces to create the list? 08:57:29 ericjames: yes, if that's what you need. 08:57:35 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:57:47 ericjames: you can use POSITION and SUBSEQ functions for that 08:57:57 or split-sequence 08:58:04 minion: split-sequence 08:58:05 jdz: great. thanks again :) 08:58:05 split-sequence: SPLIT-SEQUENCE (formerly known as PARTITION) is a member of the Common Lisp Utilities family of programs, designed by community consensus. http://www.cliki.net/split-sequence 08:58:44 serichsen: moin 08:58:53 hi lispm 08:59:31 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:00:06 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 09:00:27 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:01:12 good morning 09:02:46 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:03:23 -!- fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:03:34 fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:57 ericjames: you might also try reading "practical common lisp" 09:04:15 minion: tell ericjames about dead-sexy-book 09:04:16 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``dead-sexy-book''. 09:04:24 oh man, what was it called... 09:04:31 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 09:04:33 minion: that-dead-sexy-book 09:04:34 that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 09:04:39 right, that one :) 09:04:51 PCL will work as well. 09:05:06 it does now? 09:05:07 minion: pcl 09:05:25 did i crash minion? 09:05:26 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 09:05:50 oh, there is no entry on pcl the clos implementation 09:06:05 minion very respectfully tells you what it regards at the canonical name for the entry. 09:06:23 "pcl: pcl-book: ..." 09:06:51 yes, but there is no mention about the CMUCL's PCL 09:08:28 I wish I could say I forgot to update the sbcl website 09:08:36 the truth is I ran out of energy to update the sbcl website 09:08:52 -!- fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:09:09 Xof: what's the news? 09:09:21 a new release 09:11:19 jdz - compare /topic and http://sbcl.sourceforge.net/news.html 09:12:50 damn, the whole topic line does not fit my window, so it gets cut off at "New:"... 09:14:01 the /topic command should print it for you. The next part is: SBCL 1.0.32 09:14:16 topic is alot smaller than usual 09:14:28 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:14:48 ayrnieu: well, i can expand the topit to full, but i just don't do it... 09:14:49 are the other 'new' 's old news now 09:15:51 my excuses of not seeing news are off-topic i think :) 09:16:02 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@wavelan-12.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:16:23 the topic of #lisp is off topic? 09:16:40 yes, that was what i was getting at :) 09:17:30 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@80.14.131.214] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:17:52 is the first entri in NEWS file correct? should it really say changes relative to sbcl-1.0.31? 09:18:07 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:18:08 entry even 09:18:51 jdz, you remember that you asked someone a question about the news not too long ago? 09:19:30 jdz: in CVS? You're quite right 09:19:51 Xof: well, i use git 09:19:56 but i hope they are the same 09:22:08 addled` [n=addled@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:52 -!- sykopomp` [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:24:29 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 09:26:10 -!- addled` [n=addled@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:27:16 I have about 90000 pending patches 09:27:22 maybe I'll remember to change that in one of them 09:31:54 fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@70.16.70.118] has joined #lisp 09:32:30 -!- Younder [n=jthing@84.202.157.22] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:32:48 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:32:53 *lispm* gives Xof some energy 09:32:58 -!- ericjames [n=ericjeld@32.170.126.155] has quit [] 09:33:40 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:55 lispm free energy isn't allowed its bad for the economy 09:35:40 "it's" 09:35:53 Guthur: then I'll take the energy from you 09:36:09 feel weak 09:36:09 jdz, indeed 09:36:31 lispm i ain't got much any 09:36:31 fatalnix2995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:36 Guthur: how come energy is constant, but money is produced in vast amounts (by financial industry)? 09:36:39 *Guthur* is sleepy 09:36:52 Guthur, thanks 09:37:08 we should come up with energy inflation scheme 09:37:16 -!- fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@70.16.70.118] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:37:22 jdz, i don't control the system, ask the guys in charge 09:38:06 well, i think energy supplies are infinite. the time to use it are not, though. 09:38:49 doesn't your computer have a power management? 09:38:56 jdz, i would agree, but that sort of thinking doesn't fit in our times 09:40:40 lispm my monitor turns off after awhile, so ya i suppose 09:40:48 jdz: suggestion: make "previous entry" in the first sentence a link 09:40:56 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-98-182.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 09:41:17 Xach: ye, thanks, will do. also will link to the wiki :) 09:41:22 wikipedia i mean 09:44:06 Younder [n=jthing@84.202.157.22] has joined #lisp 09:45:39 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 09:45:48 -!- fatalnix2995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:46:09 fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:24 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 09:48:21 -!- xian [i=xian@pdpc/supporter/active/xian] has left #lisp 09:52:10 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:53:36 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 09:57:12 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBAC8E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:00:02 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 10:02:03 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:02:32 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:05:15 Xach: thanks for posting link on reddit. i wouldn't do it myself ;) 10:05:40 jdz: it has gotten you an insightful comment from volkan, i see 10:06:39 Xach: yes. and i had to teach him on #clojure how to get at elements of list 1.5h ago... 10:12:26 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:12:41 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:13:34 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@95.58.48.7] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:22:48 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Success] 10:23:12 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 10:23:47 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit [Client Quit] 10:24:31 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 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[n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 11:40:07 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@wavelan-12.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has joined #lisp 11:40:47 -!- luis [n=user@r42.eu] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:41:33 luis [n=user@r42.eu] has joined #lisp 11:44:31 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:45:14 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81.226.253.54] has joined #lisp 11:47:00 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:47:05 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-prvwdeeemdxgdmex] has left #lisp 11:47:19 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:47:34 serichsen [n=svante@hmbg-4d06c63f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:43 bit of a shame i didn't need a macro after all 11:52:54 p0a [n=user@79.131.42.157] has joined #lisp 11:54:21 egoz [n=Egoz@125.166.180.204] has joined #lisp 11:55:31 ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 11:56:32 p0a pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89360 11:56:41 help! yacc related. 11:57:14 -!- morphling [n=stefan@89.14.137.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:57:26 I think it might be the grammar that is ambiguous or at least erroneous, the reason this program doesn't work 11:58:46 Axius [n=ojof@92.82.70.5] has joined #lisp 12:00:02 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:00:06 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@wavelan-12.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:01:40 <_3b> p0a: so it is supposed to accept 1 int or 2 ints? 12:03:01 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:08 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:03:22 sbt [n=sigurd_t@62.70.2.252] has joined #lisp 12:04:17 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [] 12:04:28 what is the primary reason why scheme doesn't have full blown macros? 12:04:53 <_3b> sbt: it doesn't want them? 12:05:08 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 12:05:15 _3b: It's supposed to accept an arbitrary number of ints 12:05:24 _3b: ok, so that's the only reason? 12:05:46 <_3b> sbt: well, there is also the issue of you not defining your terms 12:06:03 _3b: what do you mean? 12:06:10 <_3b> p0a: well, if i read it right, those are the only 2 options you provide for the expression terminal 12:06:23 <_3b> sbt: define 'full blown macros' 12:06:43 _3b: yes... I hoped that input such as 1 2 3 is read to be '(1 (2 3))' or '((1 2) 3) 12:06:43 _3b: full blown macros := CL macros 12:07:03 sbt: for one thing, CL macros are more dangerous in a "lisp-1" 12:07:08 *Adlai* digs up that webpage 12:07:19 sbt: To prevent symbol capture 12:07:22 <_3b> p0a: that isn't an option in your grammar... you get int, or you get int int 12:07:26 sbt: so you're asking why scheme doesn't have CL macros? That'd be because scheme isn't CL. 12:07:33 sbt: and many scheme implementations actually come with a cl-like macro system 12:07:34 _3b: Where can I learn more about composing grammars? 12:07:40 Adlai: thanks, that is the sort of thing I was hoping to clarify. why is CL macros more dangerous in a Lisp-1 than a Lisp-n? 12:07:52 <_3b> p0a: dunno, CS textbooks? :) 12:07:53 mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:08:01 If you want to know why you can't have capturing macros in scheme, syntax-case lets you capture, you just have to be explicit about it. 12:08:04 sbt: http://www.dreamsongs.com/Separation.html specifically section 13 12:08:09 sbt: Because any symbol could also be a function 12:08:18 Not just those positioned in the CAR of the list 12:08:27 <_3b> p0a: you probbaly want something like (expression integer) as an option, depending on what sort of grammars are allowed there 12:08:31 Adlai, p0a: thanks 12:09:31 I think the expressivity of cl-yacc is way too primitive and I do not understand why the author is against some sugar on top of it 12:09:50 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-28-154.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:09:54 tcr: really? I found it so high-level and convenient to use 12:10:02 (even though I couldn't get my program to work) 12:10:08 I would really like if someone would hack up an EBNF layer on top of it 12:10:11 _3b: now that I think of it, your suggestion makes sense 12:10:21 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 12:11:02 There's some wishlist on cliki isn't there? 12:11:12 _3b: or not... I get two warnings compiling the code and it still errors when ran 12:11:17 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 12:11:33 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:11:40 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 12:11:43 tcr: it'd be nicer if there were some more docs and examples actually, for a first thing... 12:11:45 <_3b> p0a: right, probably doesn't like the infinite resursion, try (integer expression) 12:12:08 _3b: warning again, doesn't work again... 12:12:42 With the same error always, though the warnings vary: "Reduce/Reduce conflict on terminal YACC:YACC-EOF-SYMBOL in state 4 ..." 12:13:13 <_3b> p0a: dunno then, haven't looked at parser stuff recently enough to remember what that implies 12:13:30 <_3b> p0a: did you get rid of the int int case? 12:13:39 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 12:13:57 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:14:36 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:14:40 _3b: good guess, but the problems are many. the program works but it does not behave as I should, and obviously this is a simple example, I plan to write something bigger than that. Where should I look to learn more about cl-yacc? 12:14:49 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:14:53 -!- mvillene1ve is now known as mvilleneuve 12:14:59 <_3b> i assume you read the manual? 12:15:26 http://www.pps.jussieu.fr/~jch/software/cl-yacc/cl-yacc.html this? 12:15:45 <_3b> yeah, that is what i saw 12:16:12 It only has a small example which does not demonstrate much of yacc. I tried playing with the example but there was a lot of unexpected behavior which I couldn't understand 12:16:33 the text accompanying it isn't very helpful either 12:16:49 <_3b> might try looking for info on the similar C parser generators, presumably they would apply there too 12:17:21 <_3b> or pick up a compiler text and read the parsers chapters, or read up on lalr(1) on wikipedia or whatever 12:17:35 hmm... good idea. though they're a bit messier, I'll try that 12:17:43 hehe... no I don't have time for this, I need to get yacc working 12:18:36 *_3b* wonders if using a parser generator without knowing how it works is more or less of a second problem than regexes :) 12:18:59 roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 12:19:50 Well in theory I understand what is going on, I was hoping that I'd be lucky enough to get things working too :-P 12:20:03 I'm sure this question has been answered countless times, but: Why hasn't the SBCL home page been updated the past two releases? 12:20:26 <_3b> johs: because you didn't volunteer to maintain it? 12:20:37 -!- joga [i=joga@83.150.90.112] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:21:09 _3b: I was thinking there might have been some kind of problem with Sourceforge... 12:21:12 johs: Probably because people forgot to do it. You should post to the mailing list 12:21:12 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-183-99-177.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:21:21 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-183-99-177.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:54 <_3b> johs: that too probably, but that usually only breaks the links 12:22:31 -!- REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:24:11 REPLeffect_ [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 12:24:41 pjb [n=t@85-169-61-208.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 12:25:01 I didn't forget, I ran out of time and energy 12:26:15 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:26:30 -!- nipra [n=nipra@117.195.96.72] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:27:03 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:32:45 Xof: If you trust some random person to do it, I'm sure I could update it. That is, unless updating stuff on Sourceforge is a mind-bogglingly annoying and horrible process. 12:33:41 demmel [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:33:47 'mind-bogglingly annoying and horrible' is that not some feature of sourceforge 12:33:54 it's annoying for me because updating the website depends on a bunch of lisp libraries, and generally what I have when I've just made an sbcl release is a shiny new binary that is fasl-incompatible with everything else on my system 12:34:26 time to save-lisp-and-die :executable t :) 12:34:31 in the past, other sbcl developers have been better at updating the website on demand 12:35:06 Xach: yeah, or just scripting it properly. If the current release hat non-rotation process continues, I will probably get around to that 12:35:21 ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 12:35:31 I might have got round to it on Sunday if I hadn't spent the afternoon working out why the test cases didn't pass on my system 12:35:46 *Xach* finally automated his movie chart generation and it's nice to have the computer do all the work automagically 12:36:09 I do now have a mostly-scripted sbcl release process, though 12:36:24 The last two paragraphs of the specification of LOAD-TIME-VALUE seem to make it totally awkward to use. If I read it correctly, (defmacro foo (var &body body) `(let ((,var (load-time-value (frob)))) ,@body)); an implementation is allowed to coalesce the call to FROB on two different uses of the FOO macro, is that correct? 12:37:15 and I should really do `(let ((,var (load-time-value ,(copy-list '(frob))))) ,@body) 12:39:50 -!- p0a [n=user@79.131.42.157] has quit ["bye"] 12:42:20 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:25 nipra [n=nipra@117.195.104.16] has joined #lisp 12:45:13 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 12:47:28 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:49:12 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 12:50:18 [Jackal] [n=Jackal@118.95.53.158] has joined #lisp 12:50:45 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:06 -!- Younder [n=jthing@84.202.157.22] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:53:10 clhs l-t-v 12:53:11 LOAD-TIME-VALUE: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_ld_tim.htm 12:53:17 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 12:53:26 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:52 tcr: only with read-only t, no? 12:54:26 pkhuong: second-to-last paragraph, and the bit about sharing substructure 12:55:40 dlowe [n=dlowe@63.107.91.99] has joined #lisp 12:56:30 pkhuong: In my example, the same form will be within l-v-t 12:56:40 tcr: looks right then. Now to find out whether any implementation does that or plans to. 12:57:42 I'm having a form more like (if (interned?) (get) (intern (produce))), and the call to produce would also be of identical structure 12:57:59 s/also/always/ 12:58:56 The liberty makes sense when you consider that l-t-ved forms can be evaluated multiple times. 12:59:23 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-98-182.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:59:24 The value form should always return the same (or equivalent) values. 12:59:57 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 13:00:17 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 13:01:12 I'm confused.. how is that relevant to the issue I raised? 13:01:51 The problem is not only that l-v-t may evaluate more than once, it's only that it may evaluate-only-once across form boundaries 13:01:58 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@81.84.172.142] has joined #lisp 13:02:09 s/only/also/2 13:02:34 right, but: if the l-t-v appears only once in a program, it can be evaluated multiple times, so the result should only depend on the form (almost pure). 13:02:52 yeah hence I thought about doing the interning scheme 13:02:58 If the result only depends on the form, then that's also true if the same form appears elsewhere. 13:03:18 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:03:52 Given that you already have to obey some purity restriction to use l-t-v sanely, it's not more restrictive to allow EQ forms to share the same return value. 13:04:54 the one problem that I can see is with caching code, where returning a fresh cache is ok, but not so much a shared one... 13:05:18 Where does the other purity restriction come from? 13:05:25 from eval-more-than-once? 13:05:42 tcr: right. 13:07:12 well I thought you can fix that via interning, but I think in practise you can just avoid l-v-t and use something like (or (symbol-value ) (setf (symbol-value ) ) ) 13:07:51 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:08:19 tcr: gensym would also be enough to differentiate the forms for l-t-v. 13:08:38 pkhuong: but not the subform that is supposed to produce the value 13:08:56 I read it that implementations are allowed to coalesce even same subforms 13:09:32 marioxcc [n=user@200.77.72.254] has joined #lisp 13:10:26 tcr: I don't. Moreover, "If two lists (load-time-value form) that are the same under equal but are not identical are evaluated or compiled, their values always come from distinct evaluations of form." 13:10:52 They're not even equal, so "their values will come from distincts evaluations". 13:10:56 I'm talking of the previous paragraph; what's the bit about subforms supposed to mean else? 13:11:07 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 13:11:19 tcr: subform? 13:11:58 "shares substructure" I'm refering to 13:12:22 I think that refers to the "same list (l-v-t form) ..." in the preceding sentence 13:12:24 that refers to pointing the same l-t-v form. 13:12:49 Right. The "same list" is shared by being part of shared substructure. 13:12:52 -!- Summermute66 [n=scott@c-76-114-212-247.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:13:08 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 13:14:23 But with a macro like FOO above (but which expands to `(l-v-t (or (symbol-value ,gensym) (setf (symbol-value ,gensym) (frob)))), different expansion sites are compiled and their l-v-t form may share substructure with each other 13:14:50 tcr: so what? The l-t-v isn't shared. 13:15:27 "This can happen both when an expression being evaluated or compiled shares substructure". "This" refers to "the same list (load-time-value form) is evaluated or compiled more than once". 13:16:59 you forgot an initial "If" 13:17:13 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 13:17:22 no, I'm especially pointing to the condition here. 13:19:15 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 13:19:37 could you make an example where expressions share substructure at load time? 13:19:55 have there been any static type inferred lisps? 13:20:22 serichsen: (let ((x #1=(l-t-v)) (y #1#)) ...) 13:20:27 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633767.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:20:59 sbt: When you define "Lisp" I'll tell you. 13:21:08 Younder [n=jthing@22.157.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 13:22:46 -!- joswig [n=joswig@e177127190.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:22:46 beach: lisp in the conventional sense, like CL 13:23:26 sbt: Then by definition, no such Lisp can exist, because CL is dynamically typed. 13:23:56 sbt: Now, perhaps you mean, "have there been any implementation that does type inferencing", then yes, all the good ones do, like SBCL. 13:23:59 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:27 pkhuong: I'm convinced that I read too much into that bit, but I don't understand what it is supposed to mean. Could you give an example? 13:24:48 beach: I recently heard about typed scheme, using static types. I wondered if there were anything like that using type inference like haskell? 13:25:08 Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:25:15 sbt: Then it is no longer "conventional, like CL", is it? 13:25:17 sbt: type inference and static typing are orthogonal to each other 13:25:27 *Xach* stumbles across «The last language to try to do everything that succeeded at least partially was Common Lisp, but the RISC revolution at the end of 80s almost killed it.» 13:25:48 almost! 13:25:53 tcr: but scala lets you both declare types explicity as well as do type inference 13:26:05 sbt: propagation more than inference. 13:26:11 sbt: How does that contradict with what I said? 13:26:16 sbt: look up "orthogonal" in a dictionary 13:26:46 sbt: And Haskell lets you explicitly declare types as well, in fact it's sometimes necessary to avoid ambiguity, I think. 13:26:53 It says that in the example I gave to serichsen, both l-t-vs could be evaluated any number of time, and explains that it can happen due to shared substructure (different forms point to the same subform), or the same form being evaled/compiled multiple times. 13:27:15 tcr: yes, you're right. now my question is, are there any lisps like that? 13:27:18 sbt: You really have to answer the question that I asked in order for an answer to yours can exist. If you want Common Lisp with static typing, it doesn't exist. If you want static typing, you have to be willing to tell us how far you are willing to move away from CL in order that it is still a "Lisp". 13:27:21 pkhuong: Ah that makes sense, thanks 13:27:43 sbt: Haskell is such a lisp to some people. 13:27:53 HET2 [n=diman@131.251.176.98] has joined #lisp 13:28:01 beach: ok. 13:28:06 sbt: if you're looking for parentheses, Qi does that, iirc. 13:28:10 <_3b> sbt: you can declare all the types you want in CL, some implementations will even enforce those declarations 13:28:13 but haskell is probably a much better lisp than Qi is :) 13:28:15 sykopomp: thanks 13:28:15 sbt: Bitc perhaps 13:28:21 sykopomp: Qi has less parentheses than haskell, ime. 13:28:28 beach: can't you set the type of the variables? And let the compiler use those hints? 13:28:32 sbt: But really, dynamic-typing seems to be an essential to be rightfully called Lisp-like 13:29:01 tcr: why is that? 13:29:04 madnificent: Sure, but the standard doesn't say that type inferencing must be done. 13:29:15 sbt: Because of tradition and culture 13:29:21 isn't Lisp the first dynamic language? <_< 13:29:22 sbt: Because that's the way tcr defines "Lisp". 13:29:32 sbt: I am still waiting for your definition. 13:29:49 at least the only one with any descendants to speak of still living today. 13:30:03 beach: then should it be called deviation from CL? 13:30:34 beach: defining "Lisp" as "direct descendant of LISP" tends to clear stuff up, for the most part. 13:31:00 sykopomp: Oh, so Haskell *is* a Lisp then :) 13:31:00 Languages don't copulate. 13:31:01 beach: I realize that you may consider languages like Dylan a lisp. but I meant a language with paranthesis. 13:31:04 So I can, say, group Dylan in there as a Lisp, but Haskell would be more like a cousin with birth defects. 13:31:20 sykopomp: please don't insult those born with birth defects. 13:31:20 Savant, sykopomp, savant! 13:31:34 sbt: That is *such* a silly definition of what "Lisp" is. 13:31:42 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@adsl-62-167-100-9.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 13:31:52 can i test to see if a function requires arguments 13:32:03 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-62-167-100-9.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:32:03 sbt: Because it is *so* easy to turn any existing language into one with parenteses. 13:32:03 -!- lukego_ is now known as lukego 13:32:03 Guthur: not portably 13:32:04 sbt: I'm with beach here. That is, indeed, a silly definition. 13:32:09 sbt: does that mean that C is a lisp? 13:32:24 Clearly, sbt sees only parentheses in Lisp. 13:32:40 Blind men, blind men, touch, touch the elephaant 13:32:41 beach: At the same time, I consider Ruby a lisp, although a bit of a black sheep. 13:32:44 well written C has lots of paretheses, to eliminate precedence ambiguities. Thus, C is a lisp. 13:32:50 clearly, I'm new to lisp, which you have all adequately pointed out. 13:33:13 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:33:26 sbt: Well, you have been around here for more than a year. 13:33:46 beach: there's a difference between lurking and idling, and actually participating. 13:33:52 beach: and then there's gavino. 13:34:08 :) 13:34:11 tcr crappy, any suggestions? I have a lambda function that i am passing to some objects which is then call later, sometimes i want to pass a reference to the calling object sometimes not, i can make all the lambda have a variable for the passed reference but then ones that don't use it throw warnings on compile 13:34:12 actually, what are the requirements to call a language a 'lisp' 13:34:16 sykopomp: hey, don't knock gavino, he learned about lambda yesterday. 13:34:33 he didn't learn about it. He stated that he was in the process of doing so. 13:34:35 beach: I can't remember ever being in this channel, though it's possible 13:34:38 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has left #lisp 13:34:41 the process may not be over yet. 13:34:47 Wait ... is gavino still around? 13:34:52 sbt: Could just be the same nick. 13:34:55 sellout: he was here yesterday... 13:34:59 sellout: occasionally 13:35:22 sellout: he alternates between the nicks 'gavino', 'gws', and 'the_unmaker' 13:35:52 *Xach* thought gws was Guy W. Steele Jr 13:35:54 08.09.30:19:37:48 if push was a function, not a macro, would this be the semantics? 13:36:26 beach: Did you see my privmsg? 13:36:34 beach: is that yy:mm:dd? 13:36:35 Xach: he sure got ya there! 13:36:45 beach: must be another person with the same nick 13:36:45 whispecing in public places is rude! 13:36:49 whispering even 13:36:55 cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 13:37:03 Adlai: Yes. 13:37:04 Xach: isn't it Guy _L._ Steele? 13:37:41 serichsen junior could have a different middle name 13:37:51 TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has joined #lisp 13:38:07 -!- TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:38:27 sbt: OK, that's possible. You should register your nick. 13:38:30 TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has joined #lisp 13:38:38 Guthur: Perhaps you want to use optional parameters? 13:39:05 beach: actually, it's possible that I did enter this channel about a year ago, as I was working on CL at the time, but I don't think you'll find much more in your logs 13:39:07 sbt: /msg nickserv help register 13:39:37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_L._Steele,_Jr. 13:39:54 Guy W. Steele must be gavino, then. 13:40:30 Adlai: already registered 13:40:34 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:40:34 tcr thats ok for the calling side but i am try to get rid of the warnings at the definition, its annoyed that i don't use the parameter, gives style warnings 13:41:41 Guthur: (declare (ignore varname)) ? 13:42:14 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:16 madnificent that might do it, cheers 13:42:24 Guthur: yw 13:42:29 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 13:43:05 Guthur: actually, probably you want ignorable, not ignore 13:43:17 Guthur: also, take a look at ignorable 13:43:19 clhs ignorable 13:43:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_ignore.htm 13:43:40 Guthur: it shouldn't be enforced?, only allowed? 13:44:36 not enforce no, just allowed...i think, need to check up on these ignore things 13:45:10 i think its ignorable i want 13:45:34 i may abrstract the implementation if possible and that fits better, cheers all 13:45:55 s/abrstract/abstract 13:46:15 sbt: Right, a total of 76 utterings. Not much, in effect. 13:46:20 Guthur: it does surprise me a bit that you want to set that. The warnings are there for a reason, they can help you out in many cases too 13:46:55 madnificent, indeed, this is a special case 13:48:25 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:48:26 Guthur: may I ask what you're using it for? 13:48:32 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:51:24 madnificent widget events, i'm passing functions to be fire don particular events, sometimes they will change the widget itself sometimes not. I was passing a reference to the widget to alter it, of course it is not always needed. 13:51:53 If i created the widget first then set the event action it wouldn't be so awkward though, i could just trap it in the closure. umm 13:53:38 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [] 13:54:34 s/don/on 13:55:36 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:55:48 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 13:55:48 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633767.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 13:57:14 ALU-discuss@alu.org a response to the mess that is c.l.l? 13:58:57 felideon: I don't think so. After having attended ILC09, it seems like an attempt to generate more of a community feel 13:59:50 cvandusen: ah, gotcha. 14:00:17 but, that's just my (so far) ignorant take on it 14:02:18 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-140-191-199.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 14:03:02 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-10-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:04:48 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 14:05:55 has anyoune used Movitz for anything practical? 14:06:34 ziga`: i think frodef used it to generate several academic papers 14:06:54 Xach: I guess that counts :) 14:08:26 -!- Guest24708 is now known as rsynnott 14:10:05 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E687.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:10:08 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E687.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:58 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:50 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.241.145] has joined #lisp 14:18:03 arnee [n=arnee@mail.kono.de] has joined #lisp 14:19:23 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:44 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.251.188] has joined #lisp 14:19:51 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.249.234] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:20:35 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 14:21:33 Shamiq [n=Adium@wireless-165-124-97-245.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 14:21:52 quick question. i have a library of mine that exports a very tiny interface to the user. the library is controlled by special variables and acts differently based on the values of those variables, which are expected to be bound by the user 14:22:22 however, i am unclear on how. it seems to keep looking for the binding in its own package, and not the using package 14:23:16 benny` [n=benny@87.122.14.50] has joined #lisp 14:23:17 fusss: packages no longer have any function when bindings are established. 14:23:46 fusss: Perhaps what you mean is that a variable with the same name in a different package is being bound instead? 14:23:50 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-70-255.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 14:24:06 fusss: Define the variables you expect users to bind, and export their names. 14:24:14 fusss: That can happen if you forget to export the name of that variable. 14:24:21 tcr: you are right 14:24:26 you both are right 14:25:19 however, on the library side I have (defvar *control-flag*) which is exported right. on the user side, i want to be able to do (defparameter *control-flag* (logior foo bar baz)) 14:25:37 fusss: defvar doesn't export anything. 14:25:48 GOTCHA! 14:26:05 why would you think it does? 14:26:49 it keeps saying variable library:*control-flag* is unbound 14:27:47 ...which is what you would get from unavailable symbols? 14:27:47 when in fact i want user:*control-flag* which infact is bound 14:28:21 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:28:28 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:28:48 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 14:29:19 there should be only one *control-flag* when things are setup correct 14:29:20 fusss: step 1: defvar your variable. step 2: defpackage ... :export #:my-var. step 3: defpackage #:user .. :use :library 14:29:39 we're gonna go around in circles at this rate :P 14:29:42 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 14:29:42 in the repl, USER-PKG> *control-flag* ==> t but USER-PKG> (exported-fun-which-uses-flag) ==> library:*control-flag* is unbound 14:30:20 sykopomp: i do my exporting from within the defpackage of the library 14:30:20 paste away 14:30:24 -!- addled` [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 14:30:31 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A130C.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:30:35 fusss: paste, then. 14:30:40 fusss: what about USER-PKG> library:*control-flag* 14:30:48 just not in the channel, please :) 14:30:56 Xach: I think I have eval'ed forms in the editor and messed up the order; let me slime-restart-inferior-lisp and give it a second shot 14:31:10 cvandusen: fusss is an old pro, he knows about paste.lisp.org 14:31:16 -!- benny` is now known as benny 14:31:26 serichsen: same unbound error 14:31:27 Xach: lispm is also an "old pro" :) 14:31:36 addled` [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 14:31:36 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:31:49 Xach: i am old, but not pro 14:32:10 sykopomp: that was a ferret on the console 14:32:11 Xach: ok. I'm still blinded from yesterday's dump 14:32:15 fusss: finally, what about library::*control-flag* 14:32:24 Xach: it's always a ferret on the console. 14:32:31 ....until it's not!! 14:32:34 it's ferrets all the way down. 14:32:40 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.82.70.5] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:33:09 huangjs` [n=user@114.145.41.110] has joined #lisp 14:33:24 -!- addled` [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has quit [Client Quit] 14:33:25 until you get to the turtles. 14:33:32 serichsen: it doesn't seem to respect the package operator. library::*control-flag* tells libarary:*control-flag* is unbound (error has one #\: think it's export?) 14:33:49 addled` [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 14:34:02 fusss: paste the code and we can dispense with this guess-workery 14:34:13 riigh 14:34:25 fusss: single : grabs exported symbols only. :: accesses internal symbols as well. 14:34:41 quick question: What do y'all use for a hyperspec reference? 14:35:00 Shamiq: C-c C-d h in slime 14:35:01 Shamiq: i have a firefox keyword, so i type "clhs foo" in the address bar to go to it. 14:35:11 Shamiq: I've never gotten used to using it from within emacs. 14:35:22 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:27 when i'm at someone else's computer, i use http://l1sp.org/cl/foo 14:35:27 Emacs pops up a new tab in firefox for me 14:35:57 -!- addled` [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has left #lisp 14:36:09 I have clhs foo in conkeror :) 14:36:15 tcr: it is certainly not a rational choice not to use the emacs keys. i'm just way, way more used to typing "M-2 C-l clhs foo". 14:36:48 cool, thanks 14:37:09 carlos__ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:37:20 -!- carlos__ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:37:47 dv___ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:38:20 I use C-c C-d h in slime. I think it works very nicely. 14:38:24 Xach: heh I also have firefox on my second workspace. But it seems that Emacs actually consumes M-2 for me here 14:40:05 false alarm all, sorry. it works after a restart. i must have eval'ed things in the wrong order in the editor 14:40:09 I just google clhs foo and it works just fine 14:41:05 drgnvale [n=acristin@209.16.73.144] has joined #lisp 14:41:26 tcr: i've long had the habit of M- going to a particular workspace. It conflicts with several useful things, but 10 years of habit, etc. 14:41:53 felideon: i used to do that before l1sp.org 14:42:12 felideon: i found that clhs foo would sometimes go to old hyperspecs or other references 14:42:27 l1sp.org is still pretty short and easy to type 14:42:28 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:42:35 Shamiq: i have a second browser (opera) which is never closed and has the hyperspec and a bunch of other manuals open 24/7; this also allows me to to tab between browsers, one for docs and the other for googling. it's less awkward than tab switching in FF and opera is nice on laptop battery. 14:43:24 Xach: ah gotcha. never would have noticed. 14:43:44 back when i still owned books, i had two copies of cltl2, one for the my desk and one for the bathroom 14:43:56 hehe 14:44:20 fusss: that reminds me of one of lord chesterfield's letters 14:44:28 I always wanted to setup my emacs to have the clhs as info, locally 14:44:53 serichsen: the dpans2texi project (or whatever it's called) lets you do this 14:44:57 http://dropoff.org/y5f4/chesterfield 14:44:59 I have not got around to do it, though. 14:44:59 also, I have the clhs on my kindle (: 14:45:10 thanks to the same project 14:45:24 texinfo -> html dir plus a bit of fiddling with an ebook creation tool 14:45:42 ...results in a highly readable kilopage edition of the hyperspec (: 14:46:06 My dad and uncles would debate whether Sears catalogs or Wards catalogs were best for the page-tearing function. 14:46:25 <[Jackal]> SBCL 1.0.32 binaries for Win32 have been made available at http://ntemacs.sf.net just now. Sorry for any inconvenience caused. :> 14:46:37 Xach: LOL! I found it here http://www.wordinfo.info/words/index/info/view_unit/3949/?letter=T&spage=6 14:47:10 fusss: "Lisp On Lines"? 14:47:19 fusss: interesting 14:47:56 sykopomp: the destructive version 14:48:14 Xach: nLOL? 14:48:23 -!- Shamiq [n=Adium@wireless-165-124-97-245.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:48:44 #scheme is that way -> 14:48:52 antifuchs: is the Kindle version actually convenient wrt finding stuff, or just way cool? 14:49:25 cmm: convenient for reading through a section without distractions 14:50:30 finding stuff doesn't work too well, but better than an offline edition, I guess (: 14:51:51 hooray alu discussion lists! 14:52:42 vy pasted "generic slime configuration" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89365 14:52:56 Xach: you can still add keywords in Firefox without adding something as a "search engine"? 14:53:09 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 14:54:38 felideon: yes. 14:54:49 http://www.xach.com/lisp/clhs-lookup/ has the search engine version too 14:56:07 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:56:11 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:17 rmathews [n=rm@59.92.29.32] has joined #lisp 14:56:26 Xach: what are you using for the search engine? parsing the output of grep? ;-) 14:57:46 fusss: it's not really a "search" engine. it's a lookup engine that is in your search engine interface. 14:58:32 Xach: there's an apropos search thing, though 14:58:36 (and that's the best thing ever) 14:59:19 if Map_Sym.txt is some kind of text index, you probably rolled out your own thing 14:59:43 http://lispdoc.com/ is sweet stuff 15:00:12 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:12 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:00:13 fusss: oh, it's just a big lookup table. 15:00:47 anyone heard of AIMA3 which is in the works? are they still going to have code in Lisp, or will it be only Python? 15:02:19 rmathews: http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu/ has a link to a mailing list that might have a faster answer 15:03:34 cool, just added lispdoc.com to my search engines 15:05:44 *Younder* just updated the cl-cookbook. Outstanding requensts should now be adressed. 15:05:53 and clhs as a keyword to Xach's lookup. Thanks Xach. 15:06:17 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-62-167-100-9.adslplus.ch] has quit [] 15:07:41 -!- demmel [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:07:51 Xach: looked, no luck. thanks for the link though. 15:08:10 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:08:59 rmathews: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/aima-talk/ 15:09:29 (under AIMA-talk on http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu) 15:10:17 cvandusen: uhm, I meant I looked at the archives, there was no news. Don't want to post this to the mailing list. :) 15:10:44 rmathews: Why not? 15:10:55 Seems like an appropriate venue. 15:11:26 rmathews: ah 15:11:30 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:11:50 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 15:12:03 Xach: was just idle curiosity since I had just started reading Norvig's PAIP. 15:12:50 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:14:52 -!- nipra [n=nipra@117.195.104.16] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:18:16 Man, I once knew how to print from a Hunchentoot thread to my SBCL Slime REPL. Even got the answer from this channel but I can't find it anymore. Anyone know? 15:18:42 deepfire: what was the features.txt that had CCL > CLisp >>> CMUCL? 15:18:49 aerique: in the repl, do something like (defvar *repl-output* *standard-output*) 15:18:55 aerique: then you can write to *repl-output* 15:18:57 nullman [n=nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:19 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 15:20:36 aerique: Or put (setf swank:*globally-redirect-io* t) into your ~/.swank.lisp 15:20:38 (not tested, but i think that's what i told you some time ago) 15:20:45 afternoon 15:20:46 Xach: that works, thanks 15:20:49 what's new and exciting? 15:20:53 Xof: ALU mailing lists! 15:20:57 ... 15:20:59 tcr: that seems like the answer I got back then, trying out now 15:21:15 aerique: that will make all print output go to the repl from all threads 15:21:20 Xof: berlin lisp meeting next week? 15:21:28 that at least is exciting 15:24:09 -!- huangjs` [n=user@114.145.41.110] has left #lisp 15:25:24 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:25:41 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:25:54 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:26:16 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 15:28:55 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 15:31:15 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:33:50 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:36 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:35:54 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 15:37:35 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 15:39:12 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:39:35 milanj [n=milan@93.86.215.93] has joined #lisp 15:53:14 aerique, have you seen the second map I sent? 15:55:27 cvanduse` [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 15:55:56 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.241.145] has quit [] 15:57:28 deepfire: no not yet 15:58:21 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 16:01:07 -!- cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:02:51 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 16:04:56 -!- cvanduse` [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:05:32 cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 16:08:05 -!- rmathews [n=rm@59.92.29.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:08:49 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 16:09:28 -!- srcerer_ is now known as srcerer 16:11:11 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:11:11 -!- cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:11:20 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:11:21 cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 16:12:48 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 16:15:01 -!- seangrov` [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:18:05 nipra [n=nipra@117.195.104.16] has joined #lisp 16:21:35 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:22:49 Axius [n=ojof@92.82.82.137] has joined #lisp 16:27:19 -!- ASau [n=user@host220-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 16:28:16 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:30:22 Edward__ [i=Ed@81.249.194.225] has joined #lisp 16:32:15 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 16:37:00 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:37:15 *sigh* 16:38:12 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@217.18.135.36] has joined #lisp 16:38:22 froydnj: closer-mop, I think 16:38:32 shadowhywind [n=shadowhy@69.81.194.13] has joined #lisp 16:39:24 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:40:20 -!- arnee [n=arnee@mail.kono.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:40:20 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-hliqjgqvbmzhkfcb] has joined #lisp 16:40:41 arnee [n=arnee@mail.kono.de] has joined #lisp 16:41:05 fe[nl]ix: ah, that's less exciting 16:41:45 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:41:52 -!- helge_ [n=helge@81.175.2.164] has left #lisp 16:45:34 *tcr* wonders what a brown-bag bug is 16:46:23 (http://ftp.sunet.se/jargon/html/B/brown-paper-bag-bug.html) 16:47:18 404 16:47:34 wfm 16:47:39 -!- dv___ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Client Quit] 16:47:55 strange. 16:48:00 froydnj: is there a repository for chipz? 16:48:11 pjb: remove closing parenthesis 16:48:28 Oops! Sorry. 16:48:58 Lisp provoques parenthesis blindness... 16:49:13 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBAC8E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:50:45 hehe 16:50:49 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 16:51:45 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-92232.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 16:51:46 fjji [n=ojof@92.82.82.137] has joined #lisp 16:52:19 -!- sbt [n=sigurd_t@62.70.2.252] has quit [] 16:55:49 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 16:56:56 -!- fjji [n=ojof@92.82.82.137] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:59:05 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:44 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:01:30 heh 17:01:41 "Find brown paper bag bug related suppliers, manufacturers, products and specifications on GlobalSpec - a trusted source of ..." 17:03:41 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 17:03:45 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:04:05 schopenhauer [n=schopenh@122.22.7.158] has joined #lisp 17:04:07 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 17:04:10 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.82.82.137] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:04:22 -!- schopenhauer [n=schopenh@122.22.7.158] has left #lisp 17:04:36 schopenhauer [n=schopenh@122.22.7.158] has joined #lisp 17:04:59 -!- fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:05:33 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:06:55 jahmarley [n=jahmarle@88.238.205.117] has joined #lisp 17:09:00 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@81.249.194.225] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:09:35 Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-40-250.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:09:55 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 17:10:39 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-69-181-124-97.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:58 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:13:45 morphling [n=stefan@89.14.137.2] has joined #lisp 17:14:03 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:14:38 Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has joined #lisp 17:16:22 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-hliqjgqvbmzhkfcb] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:16:34 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-dceckvfevelowixo] has joined #lisp 17:17:13 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-10-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 17:22:14 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 17:23:26 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 17:23:26 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-2.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:23:32 tcr: no. I mean to put things up on github at some point 17:24:06 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:27:45 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:29:07 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-40-250.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:30:48 milanj- [n=milan@93.87.166.94] has joined #lisp 17:31:09 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:31:36 -!- arnee [n=arnee@mail.kono.de] has quit [] 17:32:09 Just wondering is this the right channel to ask lisp programming questions? 17:32:37 as long as they're about common lisp 17:32:38 shadowhywind: especially common lisp 17:33:59 shadowhywind: if you are interested in Scheme or Clojure, try #scheme and #clojure 17:34:01 well I'm completely new to lisp, so hopefully its common lisp 17:34:02 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 17:34:29 shadowhywind: ask away 17:34:34 shadowhywind: Here's a test, does your lisp use 'define' ? 17:34:35 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:34:54 if so, you'll have more luck in #scheme 17:35:17 otoh, if you use 'defun' to define functions, ask away! 17:35:21 dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:32 using defun 17:35:44 *Adlai* welcomes shadowhywind ! 17:35:48 Adlai: there's still an emacs lisp danger 17:35:53 is pastebin the "better" way to paste code here? think that might be easier 17:36:00 shadowhywind: see paste.lisp.org url in topic 17:36:08 but keep in mind that we won't help with homework problems 17:36:14 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.254.207] has joined #lisp 17:36:21 speak for yourself. paypal accepted. 17:36:22 understandable 17:36:31 Xach: true 17:36:44 -!- HET2 [n=diman@131.251.176.98] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:36:44 lol 17:37:18 shadowhywind: no guffawing either 17:37:28 btw, does anyone know how to "copy" from emacs? 17:37:51 *Adlai* was concurring wrt the elisp horror, not paypal. 17:37:56 shadowhywind: M-w 17:37:59 *Adlai* accepts cash only for hw help. 17:38:31 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.215.93] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:38:46 shadowhywind pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89374 17:39:01 -!- male_terran [n=terran@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:39:05 thats scary 17:39:47 so my issue, is when i try to do car of a single atom (i think thats what its called) it errors out 17:40:02 atoms have no car 17:40:12 only conses have car/cdr 17:40:27 lists too 17:40:34 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:49 ok, in that case, when i try to do a car of a single item in a list it errors out 17:41:00 don't to that then 17:41:03 how would I catch that instance? 17:41:11 clhs atom 17:41:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_atom.htm 17:41:14 clhs listp 17:41:14 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_listp.htm 17:41:23 both will work 17:41:40 nil is an atom, but you can use CAR on it 17:41:43 sykopomp: not really 17:41:59 nil is also a list 17:42:12 exactly. 17:42:42 in other words, (complement atom) =/= listp 17:43:02 (complement atom) == consp 17:43:08 -!- jahmarley [n=jahmarle@88.238.205.117] has left #lisp 17:43:28 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 17:43:42 (and list (atom list)) is what I would do, I think. 17:44:10 k, will have to look into that 17:44:12 (not (consp list)) 17:44:30 ^ better 17:44:57 s/consp/listp/ 17:46:14 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:41 i guess shadowhywind is now more confused 17:46:51 actraully not really 17:47:13 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:47:18 well, you think you are not 17:47:19 consp looks exactly what I was looking for, now I just have to include that into my cond statement 17:47:47 the explicit null check looks dirty i think. :/ 17:47:53 shadowhywind: exactly, you're confused... you're looking for listp 17:48:04 *hangs head* 17:48:22 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:48:30 don't confuse shadowhywind any more! taking car of NIL might not have a meaning for his problem 17:48:49 *felideon* is definitely confused 17:48:59 shadowhywind: use IF, btw. 17:49:02 should I explain what I am trying to do? 17:49:21 and then you guys can "fight" for which way would be better 17:49:23 stassats`: hmm, true. 17:49:26 shadowhywind: yes 17:49:32 -!- morphling [n=stefan@89.14.137.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:49:43 I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that you're probably looking for endp 17:49:59 c|mell [n=cmell@194.106.199.228] has joined #lisp 17:50:22 MORE CONFUSION 17:50:26 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 17:50:26 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:50:42 minion: CHANT 17:50:43 MORE CONFUSION 17:51:13 What I am trying to do, is taking a list (setq exp1 '(* (+ a b) (- c d))) and figeureing out how many "items ' *,+,a,b,-,c,d' are in that list 17:51:33 (and (sequencep list) (< 0 (length list))) ...? 17:52:13 shadowhywind: so you're counting atoms? 17:52:18 sykopomp: and what was that? 17:52:19 yes 17:52:30 shadowhywind, wait a sec, are you counting /whitespaces/ as well? 17:52:36 shadowhywind: so, you need to recurse on both CAR and CDR 17:52:40 no whitespaces 17:52:54 stassats`: yup 17:53:44 then yes, CONSP should do 17:53:48 at the moment, I have it counting the number of () , so it wasn't going instead each 'set' when I do try to get inside each set it complains because I was taking CAR of an empty set 17:53:49 shadowhywind: ok, so consp 17:54:31 however, note that if you use consp, (nil . 4) only has 1 element 17:54:43 eh, wait, it has 2. nevermind. 17:54:45 *Adlai* is confused. 17:55:10 any cons always has 2 elements 17:55:12 I am glad that I can cunfuse the experienced people, hehe 17:56:09 lispm [n=joswig@e177127190.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:56:19 Oh, that's not very hard. 17:56:34 Just avoid using standard terminology, for instance. 17:56:36 stassats`: yeah, I was confusing consp and listp... :) 17:57:09 what's so confusing about them? the differ only by handling NIL 17:57:25 yeah, I just got them backwards. 17:57:58 and they don't check list properness 17:58:35 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32FAF0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:59 For people using SLIME in Emacs, do you find yourself changing the default color scheme in Emacs? 18:00:22 ok another question, i inserted ((nil (consp (car lst))) (print "asd")) into my cond statement, however now I get a error about symbol's function definition is void:nil 18:00:23 I've always used the default black on white background, though I wonder if I could find something more pleasing 18:00:44 emacsphan: i don't change 18:00:56 clhs null 18:00:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_null.htm 18:01:02 shadowhywind: The function to test for nil-ness is null. 18:01:11 shadowhywind: for more confusion, you should study the function FLATTEN (google) which almost does what you want. ie, (length (flatten '(+ 2 d b (a b c)))) -> 7. 18:01:15 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:01:22 stassats`: never thought the white background might be hard on your eyes? 18:01:22 anymore, i was using white on black background for more than three years and decided to change it back to the default 18:01:43 stassats`: really? why change it back? 18:01:53 just to try, and it was ok 18:02:01 I see. 18:02:49 Anyone using the programmer dvorak keyboard layout? I am thinking of making the switch and would like to hear how it feels with lisp programming 18:02:53 shadowhywind: have you looked at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ chapter 8? 18:03:13 cvandusen: will now 18:03:20 emacsphan: I use "Lisper's Dvorak", where you switch CTRL and CAPS, and you swap () and <> 18:03:25 hypno: also apparently, I don't flatten with my version 18:03:50 flatten conses a new list! 18:03:52 Adlai: is that a variation of programmer's dvorak? 18:04:02 shadowhywind: flatten will be much less efficient than writing it directly 18:04:15 although, for a quick prototype, (length (flatten list)) is fine 18:04:22 emacsphan: it's a variation of normal dvorak. 18:04:26 FLATTEN is a recursive hack to get rid of nested lists. i consider it schemish in style, but the code might be helpful for you. (it's llike 5-6 lines) 18:06:21 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:23 Adlai: I see 18:06:44 Adlai: did you design that yourself? 18:06:47 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [] 18:07:05 emacsphan: nope, copied it from sykopomp 18:07:30 you do need to xmodmap it yourself, though. 18:07:37 (or I could pastebin mine...) 18:08:01 I also have a kernel keymap for this, so I have it in the framebuffer too. 18:08:05 "design" 18:09:34 Adlai: are you familiar with programmer's dvorak? in this layout the parenthesis are mapped to unshifted 5 and 8... I wonder what is easier for Lisp.... hm 18:09:45 -!- pepone [n=pepone@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit ["KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: 3513, sources date: 20090907, built on: 2009-10-19 19:51:24 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/"] 18:09:50 emacsphan: put () on home row (: 18:09:58 left foot + j and k ! 18:10:18 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-10-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:10:19 shift + ,. on dvorak is nice enough 18:10:27 *beach* thinks programmers don't use abbrevs nearly enough. 18:10:30 emacsphan: I've never used it, but I looked over it at one point, and it looks to me as though it's more for C/Java programmers than for Lisp programmers. 18:10:41 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-10-130.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:10:41 beach: how you figure that? 18:10:46 Adlai: yeah I sort of thought that too 18:10:56 beach: tab completion! 18:11:10 sykopomp: No, emacs abbrevs. 18:11:16 ah 18:11:22 schme: Because pretty much easch time I ask, nobody seems to use them except me. 18:11:40 beach: I only have basic ones.. and then I found that gnu emacs and xemacs don't accept the same abbrevs. 18:11:41 I used to have this as an emacs-specific thing, but it was too confusing so I made it (mostly) system-wide. 18:11:46 like I have (df => (defun 18:11:49 seemed not to work in gnu emacs. 18:11:58 that's another level of abstraction for the brain, remembering what is abbreviated and how might be slower than just typing it directly 18:12:05 sykopomp: I took it one step further, I guess... 18:12:22 schme: I think that's true. You can't have punctuation as part of an abbrev. But you can have "df". 18:12:24 I have a custom keymap enabled in /etc/rc.conf 18:12:33 i notice, that tab completion is sometimes slowing down 18:12:35 beach: Yeah. it's just.. I got used to (df :) 18:12:45 schme: use ( df 18:12:54 Adlai: But I'm used to (df :P 18:12:54 stassats`: No, I don't think so. It is a matter of learning, just like shorthand. 18:12:59 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.157] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 |coyoes| [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:26 -!- rsynnott [n=rsynnott@87-198-231-166.ptr.magnet.ie] has quit [] 18:13:32 stassats`: I don't program very much anymore, but I use abbrevs in my admin work, and it saves a lot of time every day. 18:13:32 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 18:13:35 Adlai: not gonna be teaching this dawg no new tricks! 18:13:55 beach: so, what do you abbrev, for example? 18:14:22 *Adlai* just got somebody to "bookmark [PCL] for a rainy day" \o/ 18:14:28 stassats`: In programming: defclass, defparameter, :initarg, :initform, defmethod, etc, etc. 18:14:29 if it saves typing a hundred of characters, then i agree 18:15:01 stassats`: More importantly, in my email, I have qqn -> queulqu'un, qqc -> quelque chose, bj -> Bonjour, etc. etc. 18:15:23 -!- schopenhauer [n=schopenh@122.22.7.158] has left #lisp 18:15:26 stassats`: it does save typing lots of characters. 18:16:12 stassats`: I have used Emacs abbrevs for decades and just assumed all Emacs users did, and discovered only recently that this is not the case. 18:16:35 lol! 18:16:48 I use shell aliases for abbreviations, but in programming I just use meta-/. 18:17:01 i think thinking is a bottle-neck in programming, not typing 18:17:12 foom: what kind of aliases? 18:17:28 especially in lisp, where's not much boilerplate 18:17:42 stassats`: You might be right. Still, why deprive yourself of hours saved per week? 18:17:44 http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TabCompletion 18:17:49 beach: shell commands. ll=ls -l and such things 18:17:59 stassats`: Your reaction is typical, but do the calculation and you'll see. 18:18:30 beach: i'm extrapolating my experience 18:18:51 foom: That's not the same at all. I am talking about (especially) email, where you can use an electronic equivalent of shorthand and still get the full message across at no additional cost. 18:18:58 and i'm aware of your essay and agree with it 18:19:05 stassats`: thinking may be a bottleneck sometimes, but what about after you've done some thinking and need to rewrite a few dozen lines? Then typing becomes a bottleneck. 18:19:06 stassats`: Thanks :) 18:19:30 *Adlai* doesn't use abbrevs, though... maybe he should look into it. 18:19:31 beach: english is already shorthand compared to french. :) 18:19:40 beach: I like abbrevs. I don't find the memorizing of it any "extra overhead" or some such. I think it saves me a lot of time and possible RSI. 18:19:51 Adlai: i don't stop thinking while typing 18:20:22 foom: In some ways, yes. I have many more French abbrevs than English ones. But that's mostly because I write 95% of my emails in French. 18:20:39 schme: Good, then there are two of us. 18:21:01 schme: Too bad you were away when I was in Malmø. We have things to talk about :) 18:21:10 beach: That is a very good idea with using it for email. 18:21:21 Thanks! 18:21:24 Uhm.. yes.. like abbrevs. 18:21:33 Guess I need to get back to emacs for mail :P 18:21:34 stassats`: I know, I'm just thinking that there are times when beach is correct and the typing slows me down more than thinking. 18:21:50 schme: Come to think about it, that subject might be exhausted in a few minutes. 18:21:57 schme: I use Alpine, which lets me invoke an external editor. 18:22:03 I'm using charcoal-black, I didn't like the default Emacs' colortheme though it may be a sign of professionalism to use the default colorscheme :D 18:22:03 hmm. 18:22:09 alpine, eh? 18:22:23 Adlai: there might be, but i won't abbreviate defmethod or defclass anytime soon 18:22:28 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:22:29 schme: For Firefox, I use the "It's all text" plugin, so that I can use Emacs for all text boxes. 18:22:43 stassats`: true 18:22:45 [and then I use abbrevs, flyspell, and all the other goodies.] 18:23:00 beach: but in the case of email, aren't you forced to litterally remember hundreds of abbrevs if this is actually gonna speed things up? 18:23:23 -!- rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:23:31 hypno: Nope, it turns out a dozen or so already saves me hours per week. Email is more standardized than one might think. 18:24:00 for me, most important tools in emacs include ido for file/buffer opening, icomplete for general command exploration and imenu for jumping to symbols in code 18:24:06 beach: i remember you are also a proponent of touch typing, so typing shouldn't be much of a problem for you 18:24:09 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 18:24:18 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@194.106.199.228] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:24:45 stassats`: But why stop there? 18:25:05 beach: well, i need a double-blind study! 18:25:08 stassats`: Remember: Kaizen! 18:25:24 stassats`: No you don't. You just have to try it and figure it out. 18:25:54 hypno: Here are the ones I use the most frequently: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/abbrevs.text 18:26:06 I had to hack something together to make them language specific. 18:26:18 emacsphan: I use color-theme-hober2; you can see it in action with slime on the screenshots on my blog: http://trittweiler.blogspot.com/ 18:26:25 In Climacs, they depend on syntax as I recall :) 18:26:32 beach: heh. 18:26:38 tcr: thanks I will check it out 18:28:00 hypno: looking at those abbrevs, I realize that people now understand something about how my daily life is spent :( 18:28:39 froydnj: Is there a reason that you do not just use trivial-gray-streams? 18:28:43 beach used to be a young rebel, now he drives a volvo. ;) 18:29:15 beach: I once visited a french IRC channel.. #france @ somewhere.. there was a LOT of odd abbrevation going on. 18:29:27 Fade: Not quite, but I do spend my day with admin crap. 18:29:43 beach: heh, yeah, you must mail like crazy. :) i average out 3-6 emails a week. the sum of the abbrev-time-savings i would estimate to around seconds in dimension. 18:29:46 schme: Yeah, looks horrible. 18:29:48 *nod* 18:30:02 beach: those abbrevs make it look as though you live in a sitcom! 18:30:05 -!- shadowhywind [n=shadowhy@69.81.194.13] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 18:30:05 beach: yup.. like "sms-svenska". Makes me feel a bit ill :) 18:30:31 schme: Any student who puts that crap in our local newsgroups gets an answer from me stating the equivalent of "your lack of mastery of your basic tools (such as abbrevs) is showing". 18:30:36 but there really is no need for sms-svenska in e-mails, right? 18:30:59 these abbreviations win: http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/#.E5.85.B6.E4.BB.96 18:31:02 schme: To which they invariably respond "but I am not using Emacs", and then I say "then perhaps you should¨. 18:31:04 guaqua: I hope not. 18:31:14 beach: hahahha 18:31:23 Adlai: Sometimes it feels like that, in effect. 18:31:26 guaqua: young idiots use it still in emails. (as if it wasnt enough to get SMS:es to begin with) 18:31:41 guaqua: some people still type with two fingers 18:31:47 beach: I'm thinking specifically of a quote (maybe George Carlin?) saying that sitcoms are just "A bunch of people entering and leaving the room" 18:31:50 same thing in finland 18:32:03 so learning touch typing should be a higher priority than abbrevs 18:32:06 stassats`: it's a shame :/ 18:32:16 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 18:32:18 guaqua: The young generation probably relates e-mail more to sms than to snail mail 18:32:23 Adlai: Ah, I see. Yeah, those are the most standarsized formulae in French communication. 18:32:47 touchtyping is not the only way to be a fast typist 18:32:54 stassats`: I agree with you, but when you know touch typing, abbrevs are next on the lsit. 18:32:56 *list 18:33:14 lukego [n=lukegorr@gprs37.swisscom-mobile.ch] has joined #lisp 18:33:15 i have friends who hunt-and-peck but are still relatively quick 18:33:24 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@gprs37.swisscom-mobile.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:33:29 chupish [i=951c03d5@gateway/web/freenode/x-vmfuzkovyfpmeuau] has joined #lisp 18:33:49 it's more painful to wait in some bank while an operator will type your name with two fingers and looking at the keyboard 18:33:58 guaqua: "relatively". Try a back-of-the-envelope calculation to see how many additional weeks of vacation they could take per year if they knew touch typing. 18:34:17 and probably even quicker than i am. i've been touchtyping with dvorak for a year and i'm not terribly fast 18:34:36 stassats`: two? you are a lucky man. 18:34:37 i.e. they do 70 wpm 18:35:01 prxq [n=mommer@g227076254.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:35:08 hi 18:35:11 I think a lot of the mythical speed increase from dvorak is that people actually have to learn to type 'correctly'. 18:35:33 schme: I actually don't think it's a speed increase, I think it's a comfort increase 18:35:36 with dvorak and touchtyping comes typing without looking at the keyboard :) 18:35:41 -!- chupish [i=951c03d5@gateway/web/freenode/x-vmfuzkovyfpmeuau] has quit [Client Quit] 18:35:45 Adlai: could be. 18:35:51 hmm.. 18:36:05 varjagg [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:36:08 I don't think I looked at the keyboard even when I was doing teh two finger waltz. 18:36:26 i think a lot of the myth is about computers to begin with: you are not necessairly better off with a computer for most tasks anyway. *g* 18:36:32 it's mostly comfort. you can keep on typing for longer periods of time without pauses 18:36:34 I was just under 100 wpm when I used qwerty in high school, then I switched to dvorak, and I do a lot more typing nowadays, and I'm still just under 100wpm... 18:36:47 :( 18:36:57 emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:00 but, I think I have a few more years before I get lost in the carpal tunnels. 18:37:07 turns out I need a typing break just about no says the computer :) 18:37:13 hypno: having a piece of paper gives you more time to think the things through :) 18:37:15 I tried once to switch to dvorak but I wasn't able to type in any password anymore 18:37:27 more fun in russia, where you have two layouts, so people first type with a wrong layout and then look at the screen and have to retype it again 18:37:27 tcr: is there a good reason to use it? 18:37:35 tcr: passwds are easy. They they're all ********* or ........ 18:37:54 here's a back-of-the-envelope calculation: sum the time wasted on procastination on the web and whatnot when you could have done some proper, solid and /focused/ work on just paper alone. :) 18:38:05 tcr: haha, I actually used to have a password that I genertaed by typing it in qwerty on a dvorak keyboard... 18:38:06 schme, those are the hardest keys to find! 18:38:12 Jafet: hahaha 18:38:13 milanj [n=milan@77.46.203.111] has joined #lisp 18:38:35 froydnj: I don't necessarily mean to depend on it, you could just slurp it into your repository. 18:38:39 . is easy on the dvorak :) 18:38:40 kpreid [n=kpreid@209.217.212.34] has joined #lisp 18:38:50 Adlai: Interesting! Mine is a word that I type with my fingers in a different place from the standard one. 18:39:13 froydnj: For someone who's checking out your code, it's "Ok he's using trivial-gray-streams" 18:39:38 beach: I used that technique before I switched to dvorak, then I used "cross-keymap encryption" for a while, and right now I use both :) 18:40:16 Depending on the shape of the keyboard I can't even type in some passwords even if it's the same layout 18:40:36 Speaking of which, am I the only one that writes his credit-card codes on the cards after having applied a unique function to it that only I know? 18:40:45 (which is the same for all cards) 18:40:45 i just memorize the passwords. i only have muscle-memory on dvorak 18:41:17 beach: even if you are now, you won't be soon :) 18:41:27 Adlai: :) 18:41:31 so i have to hunt and peck when i log into a shared computer 18:41:46 beach: md5? 18:41:52 I guess the only problem is applying it in your head 18:42:03 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:42:14 stassats`: It's simple, but I coun't on nobody else knowing it. 18:42:17 beach: you have to write them down? 18:42:29 guaqua: Yeah, my memory is horrible! 18:42:32 you copy them from the internet or? 18:42:40 gua? 18:42:44 one-time passwords or pin-codes? 18:42:51 pin-codes. 18:43:01 oh, okay :) 18:43:23 *Adlai* needs to come up with a function now... 18:43:32 x^i 18:43:57 how about e^(i*pin) 18:44:03 Adlai: mine maps the 6 digits that I write down to the 4 I need, so as to increase the number of functions possible. 18:44:19 I mean, e^(i*PIN) 18:44:19 that's kind of neat. i seem to be forgetting my client number for the web banking so i wouldn't be too sure to remember a complicated function 18:44:28 tcr: eh on the checking out code. I'm not a big fan of slurping it into the repository, either. and what I currently do works just as well. 18:45:03 froydnj: Well I wondered if there's particular you do not use it 18:45:21 Adlai: it's not an integer in the end 18:45:31 beach: another idea -- come up with a function that maps your credit card number to your PIN! 18:45:36 -!- milanj- [n=milan@93.87.166.94] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:45:42 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:45:46 unless your PIN is transcendental 18:45:50 stassats`: last I checked, my handwriting wasn't limited to ASCII 18:45:58 Adlai: Sure, but it would be very hard to come up with a single one for all the cards :) 18:46:04 tcr: another dependency, another unnecessary abstraction layer. 18:47:05 beach: true. hmm. 18:47:36 Adlai: Though perhaps not that hard. Just encode a selection of the digits on the card, and how they might have to be altered in order to get the PIN :) 18:48:00 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:48:43 Adlai: Like 22 10 76 40 meaning the second digit plus 2, followed by the first digit without modification. All modulo 10 of course. 18:49:56 egoz_ [n=Egoz@125.166.165.178] has joined #lisp 18:50:32 Adlai: It's not very secret anymore though :) 18:50:36 beach: you could also write a number from 0 to 2^16 representing a bitmask for which digits from the credit card number serve as the input to a secret function 18:50:43 just to confuse people (and yourself) 18:50:52 heh! 18:50:54 eh, 2^16-1 18:51:14 actually, I guess the smallest sensible number would be 4... any smaller, and there wouldn't be enough entropy in the input. 18:51:20 I think? 18:51:22 Adlai: People behind you in line will complain that you take too much time. 18:51:34 Heh, it's fun to be trapped in sbcl REPL, when sb-ext:quit doesn't work (no reader fun, no). 18:52:23 beach: yeah 18:52:33 this is an interesting idea for passwords too, though 18:52:49 Adlai: True. 18:52:56 find a function that maps keywords (or phrases) to passwords, and then you don't have to remember passwords 18:53:07 "email" => function => nte3984572lrcudh4rwhatever 18:53:17 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-68-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:56 ..."I'm sorry, but I have to apply the PIN-operator for the PIN-density function, so I get back the pin-egenvalue. Squaring the pin-density gives me the probability of the right code, so you'll just gonna have to excuse while I figure this banking stuff out..." 18:54:00 Adlai: This what my function (move the fingers) accomplishes. I can use the same password (with different finger positions) for different computers, and I can get special characters without having to remember any. 18:54:00 of course, it'd be a more complicated function 18:54:23 hypno: Right, something like that :) 18:54:33 hypno: It would be *so* geeky, though! 18:55:12 "I'm sorry, we're here to rob you. Now hurry up and enter that pin" 18:55:20 beach: would be kind of awesome if you had another phycisist right behind you though, going seriously: "But of course!" 18:55:44 hypno: Yeah, like Xof 18:55:46 beach: I think 'move the fingers' is fairly common, though 18:56:03 Adlai: Possibly. Still pretty effective though. 18:56:21 Adlai: The only problem, I can't log in on a French keyboard :( 18:56:55 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:56:58 yeah, and I still have to memorize my passwords (because of using both cross-keymap and transposition) 18:57:40 I go find a US keyboard, type my password, write it down, and then forget it as soon as possible. 18:57:46 -!- egoz [n=Egoz@125.166.180.204] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:58:26 and eat the paper too! 18:58:31 yeah, keyboard woes 18:58:45 Adlai: Or shred it, or burn it. 18:59:12 I had to choose my university password carefully so that it has the same movements on three different layouts (fortunately two of them differ only regarding special keys...) 18:59:34 p_l: Ah, that's a challenge. 19:00:02 beach: more, I had to fit with Windows Server password policy (and by default it enforces quite strong one) 19:00:18 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:00:28 p_l: That sounds nearly impossible. 19:00:33 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.254.207] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:00:42 p_l: how strong a password does it require? 19:00:43 p_l: Watch out, this might be enough information to determine your password. 19:01:13 -!- egoz_ is now known as egoz 19:01:14 beach: hah, a whole new class of logic problems... 19:01:48 Adlai: it requires a mix of 3 of those: numbers, small letters, capital letters, special symbols. and afaik it had to be of at least 10 chars size? 19:01:49 combinatorics! We have specialists at our lab. 19:02:18 p_l: yes, I see, and what keyboard layouts does your Uni use? 19:02:33 *Adlai* smiles innocently 19:02:33 beach: my friend used an interesting trick regarding brute force password breakers... he noticed that most of them started in alphabetic order :> 19:02:48 Adlai: not telling, do your homework (it shouldn't be *that* hard) 19:02:58 p_l: That's surprising! 19:03:25 beach: so he started his passwords with letters/symbols near the end of charset :> 19:03:37 then thrown random stuff 19:05:20 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:22 beach: btw, mcclim has one event queue per application and I can still open multiple frames/windows using that single queue? 19:05:38 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 19:08:07 *p_l* is doing little research so he could get some kind of NT6.x support in McCLIM 19:09:13 p_l, ccl? 19:09:18 though I doubt it would be very useful to many people (minimum requirement - XPSP2) 19:09:20 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 19:09:27 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-183-99-177.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:09:43 deepfire: I'm planning to start with CCL, since I have confirmed it to work nicely with SLIME on NT6.1/x64 19:10:05 but in theory any implementation that will support RDNZL should work 19:10:32 segyr [n=terje@199.85-200-233.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 19:10:36 p_l, well, you want threads with McCLIM, I think.. 19:11:41 NT6.1 = windows server 2008 or is that actually a realease of its own? 19:11:49 deepfire: threads work with CCL and ECL on windows, I heard something about clisp gaining threading, so minimum requirement would be CFFI with callbacks + RDNZL 19:11:59 hypno: win7/win2k8r2 19:12:08 p_l: okie. 19:12:53 I've got free license for Windows Server 2008R2 Standard, so as soon as I get a place to setup my windows machine + some time, I'm going to work on it :-) 19:13:57 -!- segyr [n=terje@199.85-200-233.bkkb.no] has quit [Client Quit] 19:14:08 And I have some ideas for WPF backend for McCLIM 19:14:16 p_l: I think most event are routed to a single queue for the application. But that can be modified. 19:15:07 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:15:24 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:27 beach: that's good, cause I'm planning to place the real event queue outside Lisp, then route certain events to Lisp 19:18:53 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:19:41 I want to minimize the amount of trips between .NET land and Lisp image 19:20:21 -!- HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:20:39 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:21:56 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:23:23 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:23:28 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209.217.212.34] has quit [] 19:23:32 at least I found info on programmatic control of WPF, instead of XAML :> 19:25:37 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.157] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:25:41 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.102] has joined #lisp 19:27:19 -!- emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:27:25 Fare: would llvm use in SBCL imply clang over gcc? 19:27:44 may or may not. Probably not to start with. 19:28:07 Maybe when you start doing funky things with debug info 19:28:13 probably not to get started. 19:28:46 I do find the topic quite interesting. Have a bit of compiler background, in particular, code generation. 19:29:26 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:29:26 One feature I'd like: proper tail calls AND debug information about skipped frames. 19:29:37 (if only counting them) 19:29:38 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:30:02 Ok. Is their broad interest in putting llvm into sbcl? 19:30:22 also, correct merging of special variable cleanups in tail calls. 19:30:30 wgl: not really. Possible, but not necessary 19:30:32 whose broad interest? the llvm team? 19:30:41 jdz [n=jdz@84.237.142.223] has joined #lisp 19:30:54 their broad interest is to accept patches to llvm you'd write along the way, not to do the work for you. 19:30:58 Fare: in terms of sbcl users/maintainers 19:31:23 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-59-8.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:31:41 sbcl users / maintainers will be happy of the new targets that become available "for free" 19:31:41 p_l: are you referring to clang? 19:31:46 wgl: LLVM-based SBCL would probably move current C runtime into a static library with some of the operations defined as LLVM opcodes 19:31:49 wgl: yes 19:32:13 (e.g. ARM, Alpha in full 64-bit mode, Itanium, whatever future architecture may pop up, etc.) 19:32:16 wgl, afaics, there is a certain level of scepsis among SBCL developers about feasibility/desirability of sbcl-on-llvm. 19:32:41 Fare: I'd be very happy about Itanium, ARM and Alpha :P 19:32:58 wgl: if you find SBCL too hard for whatever reason, there's still CCL and other substrates that might fit. 19:33:23 p_l, does anyone still use either Itanium or Alpha? 19:33:23 deepfire: what would be the undesirable part? 19:33:52 wgl: more stuff to maintain when you're gone 19:34:25 attila_lendvai: many of the maker/inspector/filters of the dwim component demo lead to errors. But, I guess I'll have to wait for levy to discuss them, right? 19:34:30 wgl, the impedance mismatch between whatever LLVM provides and CL wants, AIUI. 19:35:13 wgl, but I'm mostly blabbering, better ask Xof or pkhuong or ... 19:35:31 Fare: I know of places using Itanium & Alpha and it would open road to VMS port (Itanium also would give us HP-UX) 19:35:31 Or the list :-) 19:35:43 Fare: Ah. didn't think i was going, but one never knows. 19:35:56 but I'm pretty sure it would require some careful work and unfortunately some C++ 19:36:04 is there an LLVM mips64 target? 19:37:15 Fade, I'm not sure there's a proper linux/mips64, actually. 19:37:34 rey_ [n=ikke@134.184.49.19] has joined #lisp 19:37:45 So with clang as part of the build process instead of gcc, clang would be a prerequisite on platforms wanting to build sbcl. 19:38:03 Fade, so, Irix 19:38:17 With all what this entails :-) 19:38:20 wgl: haven't looked at the LLVM interface. There would probably a decent amount of work involved in translating IR1 (or IR2) to something closer to what LLVM expects in order to provide good performance. Some hairy bits will probably be even hairier (calling convention, unwinds). I've had some bad second hand experience fighting with LLVM, especially over a C FFI. 19:39:06 pkhuong: I see. what language was that? 19:39:06 p_l: how would a WPF backend + McCLIM work? I'm not sure how McCLIM works right now on Windows, but would that mean I could use McCLIM and write Lisp code to generate WPF windows/transparencies/animations? 19:39:17 wgl: I don't see why one would need to use clang to build the runtime just because we use LLVM to generate code. That's what ABIs are for... We certainly don't bundle our own C compiler just because we use our own codegen. 19:39:25 wgl: gambit-c. 19:39:44 from llvm website: "X86, X86-64, PowerPC, PowerPC-64, ARM, Thumb, SPARC, Alpha, CellSPU, PIC16 MIPS, MSP430, SystemZ, and XCore" + ANSI C 19:39:57 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:05 *Younder* is apparetly not banned form this channel 19:40:05 pkhuong: so there wouldn't be any particular advantage to going to clang for the C parts. 19:40:53 wgl: you tell me. Seems like an orthogonal concern. 19:41:07 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:41:39 wgl: looking at end result, there would be none, unless you wanted to change the runtime quite a lot in weird ways, I guess 19:41:50 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:42:08 pkhuong: I didn't see any particular advantage, just wondering. 19:42:36 demmel [n=Adium@188.98.203.107] has joined #lisp 19:43:19 wgl: http://www.ida.liu.se/~tobnu/scheme2llvm/ <--- very simple llvm compiler 19:43:28 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.203.111] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:44:02 what is a llvm compiler? 19:44:51 what is a google? 19:45:01 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.77.72.254] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:45:05 Harag [n=phil@iburst-41-213-24-102.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:45:27 foom: nothing, you spellid it wrong 19:46:07 as did google 19:46:14 p_l: thanks. will review. "..simple toy compiler with painful performance ..." 19:46:36 evening 19:46:41 marioxcc [n=user@200.77.72.254] has joined #lisp 19:46:51 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:46:53 -!- marioxcc is now known as Guest62005 19:48:39 -!- Guest62005 [n=user@200.77.72.254] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:48:40 hmm... would be interesting to use obj-c bridges with Etoile, they claim to have ported most of the changes from OSX :> 19:49:03 -!- demmel [n=Adium@188.98.203.107] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:49:13 theoretical question ...I have a big file to import...with lots of things to check from looking up values to the case ans spelling of stuff...each check is so small (couple of lines 6 or so) and each check adds stuff to the log and to the corrected "lines"...etc 19:49:26 arnee [n=arnee@mail.kono.de] has joined #lisp 19:49:49 ahh, Low Level Virtual Machine (LLVM) 19:50:26 this lewves me with a huge function...replaceing eh check with function is just as bad because then I have to update all the running totals wtc from the functiions return values and by then its the same amount of code! 19:50:32 is there a better way 19:51:14 I am tempted to just do a whole lot of globals to get round the passing and resetting od stuff... 19:51:45 Harag: You're making no sense at all to me. 19:52:16 Harag, please try to formulate yourself less chaotically.. 19:52:20 schme: i woulld post the code but I am to ashamed 19:52:40 Harag: don't be ashamed, we are all supportive friends here! 19:52:44 Harag: We can start from the top.. "I have a big file to import". import where, what? 19:52:44 Harag: perhaps you should use flet to define functions inside your large function 19:52:44 Ok one liners then 19:52:51 (: 19:53:00 right Xach 19:53:03 1. Big file 19:53:10 2. Import to DB 19:53:19 3. Many fields per line 19:53:21 marioxcc [n=user@200.77.72.254] has joined #lisp 19:53:30 functions defined within the scope of local variables can use and mutate those variables. 19:53:31 4. Validation for each field 19:53:41 foom: or specials. 19:53:46 5. Validatin may include lookups to DB , spelling etc 19:54:31 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 19:55:16 Harag, ok, makes sense, so far, go on. 19:55:17 foom: mmm I will have to see how much lines of code that will save me.. 19:55:17 first seperate UI from DB. You don't want all the DB to show do you? 19:55:21 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:55:21 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-2-226.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:55:57 its not the writing of the lines..its the maintaining them afterwards...and the mirad cond clauses that is driving me mad 19:56:01 pkhuong, does gambit now have a working llvm backend? 19:56:14 Harag: well, my experience is to generally go with CLOS unless you want a mess you'll never be able to maintain. :) but it also depends; is the input format lisp friendly for example? 19:56:17 younder: there is no ui 19:56:47 levy [n=levy@94.44.8.107] has joined #lisp 19:56:48 Have a User interface compnent, a data access component, a OS component and the aproblem domain component. And kkep them seperate 19:56:56 good evening 19:56:57 input is pipe delimted files and i have a lib that parses that to a list so thats not a problem 19:57:02 Harag: I don't think you should listen to Younder 19:57:11 rofl 19:57:30 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 19:57:33 Harag: if you feel "globals" will make stuff nicer for you, just use 'em. They're not evil. 19:57:39 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:58:05 kewl I was feeling guilty just thinking about it 19:58:18 schme, the listen to Peter Coad and Edward Yourdon which wrote a book called Object oriented design 19:58:49 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@188-23-178-159.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:58:53 the inline functions will also maybe let me get rid of the HUGHE cond that figures out with field I am working with... 19:58:56 Anyone submitted the new ALU mailing lists to gmane yet? 19:59:02 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:14 Younder: You're crazy ? 19:59:24 Younder, you're getting yourself ignored. 19:59:28 It's simply common sence to move the most transient parts out. That way it is has a easier time adating. 19:59:32 Harag: DEFMETHODs with specializers are /wonderful/ when it comes to implement stuff like that. 20:00:06 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 20:00:16 -!- Xach has set mode -b *!*jpthing@*.customer.cdi.no 20:00:17 whatever, I'l leave you to you younder bashing 20:00:27 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*thing@*.customer.cdi.no 20:00:46 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 20:01:06 hypno: I am not a big oo fan, usually i feel there is a whole lot of plumbing to the objects that I never use but at this stage I will consider anything 20:01:21 enter CL OO. 20:01:25 pkhuong, can you tell me why did you use sb-pcl::generate-discrimination-net-internal instead of sb-pcl::generate-discrimination-net in your generic function sealing code? 20:01:29 oooh, horrible things being done to invisible people 20:01:30 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:01:30 -!- Younder [n=jthing@22.157.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 20:01:58 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32FAF0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:04 cmm-: like a fart in a sauna, you can "see" it by the reaction it causes in others 20:02:24 thank you for that image 20:02:24 rofl @ Xach 20:02:26 *** Younder is John Thingstad <- where have I seen that name before? 20:02:54 felideon: prolific comp.lang.lisp poster, with about the same level of coherence 20:03:06 Ah. 20:03:43 probably an AI 20:03:45 no wonder you were quick to banm 20:04:14 Harag: well, i wasn't either. never quite come to grips with Java say, but CLOS is a very different animal. it's a very nice framework to work within. 20:04:25 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:04:53 felideon: There was actually an existing ban he was avoiding. 20:05:12 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:20 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 20:05:25 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Client Quit] 20:05:46 is there any documentation on sb-pcl::generate-discrimination-net and/or sb-pcl::generate-discrimination-net-internal somewhere? 20:05:52 well my work here is done then. goodnight #lisp 20:06:22 levy: ahahaha 20:06:37 every time I try to understand what they do, I get lost in a maze of recursion 20:06:59 Krystof, at least it's not just me, thanks 20:07:07 Hypno: you mind explaining a bit about the specialisers...in the sense of how would it help I am not seeing it 20:07:29 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:29 ... wonders of cpuid and non-hw virtualisation - suddenly an old C2D became a Xeon5000 20:07:58 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 20:09:01 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:09:12 Harag: well hard to say. if you want code or "real input", you got to swallow your pride and paste the code. :) 20:09:14 Krystof, I can't get my make-generic-function-discriminating-form working for some complicated case and don't know why 20:09:30 sbcl just does things right, but it's pretty hard to understand how 20:09:32 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:46 hypno: you are cruel..:P 20:12:06 levy: I am absolutely prepared to admit that there are some bits of, well, voodoo still in PCL, and it's very difficult to trace what actually happens 20:12:27 it even resists modern introspection tools: it doesn't compile if you turn coverage info on in make-target-2 20:12:34 I suggest taking out a support contract :) 20:13:12 Krystof, he he, nothing important, it's just my toy partial evaluator 20:13:32 which would be able to partial evaluate make-instance down to what sbcl does by hand made optimizations 20:14:42 except not being able to making good discriminating forms for the generic functions make-instance, initialize-instance, shared-initialize, etc. 20:15:03 I can cover the simple cases, but when lots of libraries are loaded, it just breaks 20:15:17 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-70-255.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:15:19 Harag pasted "Eish" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89386 20:15:21 the code is a copy of pkhuong sealed generic function code 20:15:38 my eyes! 20:15:43 hypsno: there it si to my shame...:( 20:16:07 btw, partial evaluating generic functions could help performance in many other libraries 20:16:50 hypno: ...and... how bad is it? 20:17:16 Harag: fyi, you don't need progn in some of the places you have it 20:17:32 Harag: like in WHEN and WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING 20:17:48 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:17:54 Xach I did it for sanities sake...jsut to block the code 20:19:13 Harag: when i see something like that, I think: "the author does not know Common Lisp", not "this is sanely blocked" 20:19:59 Harag: if sort of feels like a C programmer is at it. :/ 20:19:59 well Xach: I dont know common lisp..that well 20:20:11 :P 20:20:24 I am a C# programmer so it shows :P 20:20:54 that is why I am asking help..there has to be a better way... 20:21:16 I can code in lisp but thinking in lisp is taking me time... 20:21:41 the field-count cond stuff is a good example for specialicers i think. 20:22:22 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@81.84.172.142] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 20:22:26 I have 15 years to unlearn ...and that 15 years includes cobol,rpg,vb,c# and many other bad languages...lol 20:22:29 (well, arguably. old timer and speed afficionados will probably say i'm a retard and that you should go with tagbodys or some such) 20:23:03 hypsno: tou talking gotos's? 20:23:04 Krystof, any idea what's wrong with http://dwim.hu/function/hu.dwim.partial-eval::make-generic-function-discriminating-form? 20:23:20 Being relatively new to CL myself, I would say that the first step would be to break the problem down more 20:23:27 bah, I meant without the question mark: http://dwim.hu/function/hu.dwim.partial-eval::make-generic-function-discriminating-form 20:23:56 Harag: I would like to offer deeper insight, but at the moment I'm just looking at superficial obvious things: you can move all those with-database bits into a function instead of using the same boilerplate with slightly different options. 20:24:01 Harag: you might be able to replace the dolist/cond with one big destructuring bind on the line into named variables directly, and then run your validations sequentially 20:24:02 saikatc [n=saikatc@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:04 levy: sorry, I'm not going to look at that now 20:24:08 -!- arnee [n=arnee@mail.kono.de] has quit [] 20:24:29 Krystof, no problem 20:24:46 xach: what do you need to know...? 20:25:13 ryepup: that sounds like a big step already ...kewl 20:25:20 Harag: I don't understand the question. 20:25:40 I need to know what I will have to eat this evening, but that isn't especially important to #lisp... 20:25:53 Xach: grilled cheese! 20:26:25 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:26:27 Xach: will a sample of the stuff that have to go into the DB help? It is basicly take the line from file parse with validation and put to DB.. 20:26:34 milanj [n=milan@77.46.203.111] has joined #lisp 20:27:44 Harag: oh, I can't comment more because I am out of time and brainpower at the moment. But sample data would help if I get more time (and brain) later. 20:27:57 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:04 hehehe 20:28:08 :P 20:28:14 aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:28:17 konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 20:28:19 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6EED3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:08 -!- [Jackal] [n=Jackal@118.95.53.158] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:29:11 Xach: a sample wont realy help its getting the right validation applied to the right field that is the problem i think in the end of the day... 20:29:11 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:29:44 Xach: and the fields are in a specific order and thats all I have to work with 20:31:44 Xach: and on top of that the sequence of field validation matters because some of the later fields need validated data from earlier fields to be able to validate them 20:32:07 danlei [n=user@82.113.121.85] has joined #lisp 20:32:15 levy: http://discontinuity.info/~pkhuong/discrimination-net.txt 20:32:54 Fare: far from a working one. The project did induce "strong feelings" about GVM though (: 20:33:08 Xach: ...I make briliant italian or indian food...if that helps ;) 20:33:20 -!- ntd [n=user@143.215.129.83] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:33:29 Harag: you need to modularize the parse-bio file /way/ more. 20:33:44 Harag: do you have an example of input data? 20:34:09 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["May the Coyoes cook you some hot chili some day!"] 20:34:33 hypno: I am battling to get the client to give me the data in a csv (excel) format never mind more structured 20:34:36 pkhuong, thanks, great! hope it helps 20:34:44 example coming up 20:35:00 Harag: you also need to stop with the IF+PROGN drug. you also need to stop with the whole underscore buissness. 20:35:23 hey, I've read those notes before 20:35:33 I must be generate-discrimination-net-understanding-resistant 20:35:51 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-70-41.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:35:56 Krystof: "hey, I've written those notes before" ;) 20:36:00 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:02 Harag annotated #89386 "data sample" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89386#1 20:36:20 -!- gaze [n=gaze@ResNet-36-86.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:36:32 hypno: how do i block if's then or is there a better way? 20:37:26 Harag: you mean UNLESS? 20:37:28 clhs unless 20:37:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_when_.htm 20:37:44 (types aren't frobbed with) 20:37:47 Adlai: thanx 20:37:54 I like that. 20:39:51 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 20:40:05 gaze [n=gaze@ResNet-36-86.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 20:40:33 pkhuong, is this supposed to work (eval `(funcall ,(sealed-gf::make-lambda-expr (fdefinition 'my-generic-function-foo)) 'my-parameter)) in general? 20:40:44 in current sbcl 20:40:58 -!- qidush [n=qidush@c83-252-27-42.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:41:01 or is the generic function sealing code somewhat outdated? 20:41:05 qidush [n=qidush@c83-252-27-42.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:41:05 -!- qidush [n=qidush@c83-252-27-42.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:41:17 levy: my code has most probably bit rotted quite a bit in more than 2 years. 20:41:34 pkhuong, what a pity :( 20:41:46 hopefully at sbcl10 we will identify all these cool experiments and find a victim to reimplement them all 20:42:26 Oh, right. I should work on my presentation to trap new unsuspecting vic^H^H^Hfellow students. 20:43:48 are you confirmed? 20:44:02 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:44:13 at sbcl10? No. I'll book a plane ticket and do that. 20:44:42 hypno: the underscore business is a postmodern thing if you want to use dao's you need to use undrscores because tehy force underscores for som dao stuff...edi agreed that it would be something to change but asked me to do it and at that stage I had very little lisp under my belt so no go there 20:45:02 gotha. 20:45:46 Krystof: how many people are coming to sbcl10 so far? 20:45:52 pkhuong, isn't g-d-n supposed to return the methods sorted? why do I get the :after methods first? 20:45:58 -!- nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:46:06 qidush [n=qidush@c83-252-27-42.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:47:00 confirmed? 6. There are of the order of 5 probables and a few more possibles; I need to advertise locally soon 20:47:07 we have space for of the order of 20 20:47:10 -!- tychoish [n=tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:47:28 neat 20:47:52 Ok to summarize : 1. replace the dolist/cond with one big destructuring bind on the line 2. use when/unless 3. Objects and specializers hypno? 20:48:19 *Krystof* looks at his external-formats branch and wonders how to reorder it so that merging is sensible and relatively non-painful 20:48:34 levy: oh hey, seems to work. You just have to bind *gf-name* before calling make-lambda-expr (or get it via generic-function-name, but that might not always work). 20:48:35 Harag: you'll have to wait a few minutes... :) 20:48:54 *Harag* is going no where...;) 20:49:06 levy: methods are sorted by specificity. That's orthogonal to the way the method combination executes them. 20:49:41 Krystof: EDTIOR="sed -i -e '2,$s/pick/squash/'" git rebase && git diff master.. 20:49:50 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:57 I wonder why people still work on CMUCL. 20:50:11 froydnj: heh. What I want, though, is for any errors that I've made to be bisectable 20:50:31 (And whether it's possible to drag rtoym into the SBCL camp :-) 20:50:34 because it's not like anyone's tested the branch :-) 20:51:09 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:51:35 -!- danlei [n=user@82.113.121.85] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:51:37 pkhuong, if I try to compile it complains about interning sb-pcl::get-pv-cell 20:51:49 I tried to workaround that by always doing the slow path 20:52:06 Hi levy. Are the maker/editors on the current dwim.hu component demo expected to work? 20:52:34 levy: that might have changed. Xof or nikodemus might remember. 20:53:04 Is there someway to find a file's last edit time? 20:53:08 kami-`, not yet 20:53:15 next week, this week I do C++, bah 20:53:18 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 20:53:34 pkhuong, but am I right that the :slow path should be ok? 20:53:48 levy: sure. I'll upload what seems to be a working version here. 20:54:25 it's still fundamentally broken, though, since we might have to generate cases for the whole powerset of methods. 20:54:33 levy: OK. Thanks. 20:54:51 good night, #lisp 20:55:00 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:55:02 pkhuong, could you try with the generic function in please? http://dwim.hu/file/hu.dwim.partial-eval/test/generic-function.lisp 20:55:06 sorry for the weird syntax 20:55:21 that fun now gives me weird type inference errors 20:55:25 levy: reload. 20:55:27 kami-`, good night 20:56:11 I don't think I've changed get-pv-cell 20:56:44 Krystof: that's now a call to pv-table-lookup-pv-args. 20:56:55 someone's been refactoring 20:57:12 pkhuong, now compiles without problems 20:57:22 pkhuong, but seems to not work correctly, I'm double checking 20:58:20 pkhuong, this (eval `(funcall ,(sealed-gf::make-lambda-expr (fdefinition 'print-applied-method-information)) 42)) prints only "integer: after" 20:58:24 levy: right, you have to extend it to handle non-normal methods (or even just non-standard method combinations). 20:58:25 while (print-applied-method-information 42) prints a lot of stuff 20:58:43 pkhuong, what do you mean by non-normal? 20:59:05 Getting those implementation details right wasn't the "interesting" part of the work at all. 20:59:08 that's a standard generic function with :before, :after, :around and primary methods 20:59:08 Is there someway to find a file's last edit time? =/ 20:59:28 levy: sure, and I only handle primary methods. 20:59:40 -!- kami-` [n=user@p5B20F87B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:59:44 pkhuong, ah, ok 21:00:26 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:05:15 beach: I tried out your rendering engine and it works pretty well (smallest font size in the example is bad, but still better than free/truetype I think). How would one go about trying it out as a clim backend? 21:07:21 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 21:07:49 levy: You might find interesting if you want to change the way search trees are computed/do it yourself. 21:08:08 I only noticed it in my feed this morning. 21:08:30 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 21:10:28 pkhuong, hmm, sounds very interesting, but I don't know how is this related to being able to make a lambda form for a generic function 21:10:42 I've managed to get 'truetype' font rendering on mac running - I had to manually generate the font table of file names for DejaVu fonts, because there is no 'fc-config' on mac... now it works! Perhaps this would interest any other mac user.. 21:11:14 this regards McCLIM 21:11:59 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 21:12:08 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:12:19 levy: each case in the search tree is a function in their paradigm. You want to generate a query strategy to minimise the worst-case number of queries. 21:12:39 Guest52073 [n=lukjadOO@ip216-239-89-44.vif.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:40 That one isn't really algorithmic, but some of the references are. 21:13:07 ziga`: how do the fonts look (in mcclim-truetype)? Fuzzy or very nice? 21:13:26 Sikander: not mac-rendering nice ofcourse 21:13:33 -!- Guest52073 [n=lukjadOO@ip216-239-89-44.vif.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:13:37 Sikander: I would say 'acceptable' :) 21:14:00 I'll try with freetype later 21:14:07 pkhuong, I must admit (which I do rarely ;-) that I can't follow you here 21:14:07 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 21:14:22 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 21:15:02 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:15:09 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229243209.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 21:15:40 I thought that for standard-method-combinations I could just use the return value of g-d-n and call those methods in the correct order why having their body inline in the generic function lambda form 21:16:21 freetype is visible nicer than lisp native.. hinting is a must obviously 21:16:39 inline is a key point here, because what I effectively do in my partial eval lib is that I build up a form for a generic function that contains all methods' forms inline 21:16:44 if we could get hinting into lisp native version - that would be best.. 21:16:51 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:58 oh yeah, you can. But if you wanted to generate another search tree yourself... 21:17:35 pkhuong, no, actually I'd like to work on the partial eval part, but for generic functions I must do this first 21:17:35 when cross-compiling in SBCL (for the target cold core), does (declaim (special *foo*)) work as usual or do I need to perform any special tricks to make variables recognized as special? I getting warnings about unresolved variables that I have declared special earlier on 21:18:02 (declaim (special *foo*)) works as expected 21:18:12 but you have to do that before the first use is compiled to avoid warnings 21:18:22 see e.g. src/compiler/early-c.lisp 21:19:21 hmm. I *think* I'm doing that. I'll try to lisppaste the output from the build 21:20:04 pkhuong, is there anything reusable in sbcl's source or better of in the standard-mop which can sort the actual methods in the order they should be applied 21:20:04 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:20:19 I'm trying to move PCL into cold-init 21:20:26 I know I also need to handle call-next-method, is there anything else I need to take care of for standard-method-combinations? 21:20:56 gonzojive: I got a fair way into doing that before deciding that a simple transcription wasn't the right way to go 21:21:02 "simple transcription" haha 21:21:21 er, used in make-instance and friends... I mean 21:21:33 Krystof: what approach would you take if you gave it another shot? 21:22:21 implement a host-portable version of PCL 21:22:37 it doesn't need to be complete, but it does need to be able to call generic functions 21:22:38 ziga`: yeah, I like freetype as well. Have you seen beach's rendering example? 21:22:55 then use that to compile PCL. (same as the ordinary compiler) 21:23:12 git branch suggests looking at remotes/origin/pcl_build_1_branch 21:23:15 Sikander: no? 21:23:23 it'll be 5 years old, but not much has changed in principle 21:23:54 Sikander: IIRC it uses it's own font definition? 21:23:58 "its" 21:24:10 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-140-191-199.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:24:16 Krystof: what are the benefits of moving PCL earlier into bootstrap? 21:24:38 ziga`: yeah, he wrote his own metafont renderer. Looks pretty nice. I had the url for that png somewhere.... 21:24:38 Krystof: it seems that having to bootstrap as little as possible is a good thing 21:24:55 Krystof: so you would use the host-portable PCL instead of the host's implementation of CLOS? 21:25:12 gonzojive: yes, because you need bits of the MOP, and you can't rely on those bits existing on the host 21:25:39 slava: being able to program using clos, where that makes sense 21:25:45 Krystof: using clos in the compiler then? 21:26:02 Sikander: but that means no TTF support right? then you have limited choices for font in application 21:26:12 (haven't we already had this discussion about a week ago?) 21:26:18 Krystof: no 21:26:25 you must've had it with someone else 21:26:27 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 21:26:27 I've had this discussion about a week ago :-) 21:26:31 perdix [n=perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has joined #lisp 21:26:40 pkhuong, what kind of strong feelings? (GVM: I assume "Gambit Virtual Machine"?) 21:26:41 anyway, I was just curious, not pressing the point 21:26:58 it's not a high priority, but I think that having cold-init produce the final core is my ideal 21:27:05 pkhuong, ah, finally I got how is the paper related to this, thanks 21:27:05 ziga`: Meh, all I need is a good renderer, a good sans-serif font and a good monospace font for gui (clim) applications. 21:27:27 that's partly because I am sick and tired of trying to debug the PCL build without having things like trace available 21:27:43 ziga`: If it looks slicker than anything free/truetype, then fonts or font converters will pop up (hopefully) 21:27:50 Krystof: given a host-portable PCL, you would still need to bootstrap it before the compiler during cold-init, right? 21:27:51 Sikander: True - for all the GUI stuff and ordinary text one doesn't need TTF 21:28:07 Sikander: it's done in Lisp I presume? 21:28:13 gonzojive: at least some of it, yes 21:28:15 I'm trying to figure out how the host-portable PCL helps you once you get to the bootstrapping stage in the target 21:28:35 for print, I have TeX (pdfLaTeX in my case). 21:28:43 the idea, I think, is that genesis can dump target structures from host-portable objects 21:28:54 gonzojive: you could go back to the bad old days and make sbcl only bootstrap from sbcl 21:29:20 so you could introspect over sb!xc:standard-class to decide how to dump the future cl:standard-class, as a finished entity 21:29:41 Sikander: I want to sometime display Tex fonts so I need TTF for that part.. but with larger fontsizes it should look nice with either font renderer.. for the gui stuff, I agree with you 21:29:51 ziga`: Yes, it's pretty nice imo. Dammit, you should ask beach for details. 21:30:07 beach: details? 21:30:08 *levy* thinks compute-effective-method is my friend 21:30:09 :D 21:30:21 ziga`: For TeX fonts, you need an Metafont renderer! 21:30:34 -!- prxq [n=mommer@g227076254.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:30:50 so if you've bootstrapped on the host, you don't actually need to rebootstrap -- you can dump an already-initialized CLOS. (Of course you need to be careful to ground any new metacircularity you introduce by using CLOS in compiler implementation) 21:31:17 Sikander: people have converted them to TTF for convenience in non-tex environments.. a real metafont renderer complicates things I imagine - esp. with unicode and all 21:31:19 ziga`: Theoretically, if I understand correctly, it would be possible to convert TeX metafonts to beach's system. The fonts may look not as good, though, because they were designed for much higher resolution (as beach explained to me) 21:31:46 I have done the thought experiment; I just haven't done the actual experiment 21:31:54 ziga`: yeah, but metafont is iirc much more powerful than ttf. Conversion from mf to ttf reduces the amount of hinting info. 21:32:02 I was getting to it 6 years ago, but then I decided that I wanted to finish my PhD instead 21:32:03 Sikander: interesting.. well I hope to see this rendered included in mcclim so I can investigate 21:32:03 -!- cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:32:17 ah, so you use the PCL built for the host to dump CLOS into the target 21:32:22 exactly 21:32:29 that makes sense 21:32:38 are there subsystems of SBCL that work that way already? 21:32:44 the compiler 21:32:54 Sikander: metafont is powerful beyond it's own good, like lisp ;) 21:32:59 defstruct 21:33:15 or def!struct or sb!xc:defstruct. 21:33:18 def!constant, too 21:33:19 worse is better 21:33:26 "its" 21:33:40 -!- dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:34:04 ziga`: I'm not so sure. On high-res devices, you definately want something better than ttf can provide. Ever seen the print difference between word and TeX output? 21:34:18 it's its 21:34:21 minion, thwap for ziga` 21:34:23 ziga`: direct your attention towards thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 21:35:07 whenever I see that I think of ITS, the OS 21:35:10 sebaseba [n=carnieri@189.32.41.195] has joined #lisp 21:35:12 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:35:59 I will have to inspect how those get dumped to the cold core. I was under the impression that def!structs were dumped to the core as they were cross-compiled. i.e. no introspection was happening from the structures defined on the host 21:36:25 but I suppose I will have to look over how that works again 21:38:07 very ignorant question: How much of the slowness in SBCL's compilation speed is due to the way it bootstraps itself and its compiler? (as opposed to the optimizations and type inference performed by the compiler) 21:39:14 gonzojive: that's true, but take a look at how genesis dumps structure _layouts_ (rather than the objects themselves) 21:39:21 Adlai: approximately none 21:40:32 Krystof: that's good to know. I like your paper about SBCL's bootstrap process, but thinking about the complexity (it's a different kind of complexity than CMUCL's boot, but still complex) made me wonder if that had effects. 21:40:37 Sikander: TeX vs Word is mainly because of spacing between words and characters, where TeX is much better since it 'reflows' the whole paragraf to optimize spaces whereas Word does it per line - if you use TTF with TeX you get nice resoults also.. resolution is not a problem with TTF, it's how you use them.. 21:41:11 Adlai: there are one or two things that can't be expressed portably (such as mutually-recursive structure slot type declarations) 21:41:30 but the net effect is teeny tiny 21:41:49 On a mac, kerning and such stuff is done correctly and nicely with TTF fonts.. so a lot is possible with TTF, but Word refuses to do it 21:41:52 ziga`: I don't know. I've used some ttf fonts with TeX but generally found them lacking. I mostly use postscript fonts (psnfss) or zo 21:41:57 Sikander: much as it pains me to agree with ziga`, I agree with ziga`. 21:42:06 LOL 21:42:07 try using xelatex and Linux Libertine 21:42:37 Nah, I believe you, but I'll stick to what I find visually pleasing already. psnfss works fine 21:42:41 Is the 'ziga`' that hangs out in this channel THE ziga backquote? 21:42:54 also, Word doesn't entirely refuse to produce acceptable output, it's that kerning at least and possibly hyphenation are turned off by default 21:42:54 LOL 21:43:04 you guys are funny 21:43:29 Krystof: so those slow down compilation because they have to be defined within SBCL, rather than on the host? 21:44:15 TeX as a 'compiled' system will always have an edge over WYSIWYG.. it can do way more analysys 21:44:27 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:44:56 Adlai: How many ziga backquotes do you think there are?! 21:45:04 TeX has inherent advantages over MS Word, because WYSIWYG < WYGIWYD 21:45:44 Adlai: no, it's just that there are one or two compiler data structures where we would have liked to declare those mutually-recursive slot types but can't 21:45:53 actually we might do anyway, because I think only lispworks really complains 21:46:08 thanks for 'fixing' my rusty english, btw 21:46:20 ziga`: that's nonsense; you could easily do on-the-fly paragraph layout 21:47:09 Krystof: yes, like lisp compiles code on the fly, but it would look strange to a secretary using MS Word - text flowing left and right 21:47:11 Krystof: oh, I see. So on SBCL you can have mutually recursive struct definitions? (I think that's not in the spec, right?) 21:47:27 No, you can't 21:47:33 mutually recursive slot type declarations 21:47:43 eh, yes, I meant those. 21:47:56 (defstruct foo (a (error) :type bar)) (defstruct bar (b (error) :type a)) 21:48:03 can the two struct definitions with those be in separate files? 21:48:05 erm, foo 21:48:07 Krystof: I noticed a ton of special variables and side-effecting in the the fop.lisp code that make it somewhat difficult to follow what's going on unless you're pretty familiar with the code. the STYLE file doesn't really mention side-effects or functional style too much. would you like to see parts of the compiler become more functional? 21:48:09 Harag: Regarding RPG, you have my deepest sympathies. I did a couple years of that, then found myself joyously replacing it all with cobol, which I had previously sworn I would never do. 21:48:14 ie, in separate compilation-units? 21:48:22 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:48:38 gonzojive: no. I would like to see parts of the compiler become easier to understand 21:48:49 ideally simultaneously becoming faster or more powerful 21:49:13 Adlai: try not to obsess about mutually recursive structure slot types 21:49:23 wgl: well I ajoyed the rpg ...but maybe that is because I ahd to do the cobol on paper 21:49:36 text looks like crap in MS Word because of the overuse of hinting 21:49:50 but that's only on screen 21:50:08 but then you print it and it's still crap 21:50:09 Here's a photo of 230 kilos of coke: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/show_image.php?i=cocaine/cocaine5.jpg 21:50:09 Krystof: I'm just curious... 21:50:24 wgl: the cobol i did was on BIG paper sheets and then a operator entered it and cam back with issues ... 21:50:42 you can TELL that something was done on word - if it looks like crap, it's word 21:50:54 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit ["leaving"] 21:51:08 billstclair, do you have it for sale? 21:51:13 heh 21:51:14 i've already mentioned this article here: http://antigrain.com/research/font_rasterization/ 21:51:24 Not in that business 21:51:30 ziga`: although typesetting is off-topic here, fixing a student's understanding of logic isn't. Your implication is basically true but irrelevant, because it's the wrong way round 21:51:35 ah 21:51:36 billstclair: that photo is (c) 2000... old news! 21:51:37 jdz, I was about to point you to that one :-) 21:51:40 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 21:51:53 -!- TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:52:03 Well, somebody asked for the volume of cocaine. I looked all over, and that was the best I could do 21:52:11 ziga: i dont understand a lot of what u guys are talking about but why does the word stuff still look better than the open office stuf? 21:52:12 I thought it was an ad 21:52:24 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-67-109-95.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:32 Harag: because open office stuff is even worse? 21:52:48 selling a bit cocaine via #lisp 21:52:52 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 21:52:53 Krystof: do you care to *briefly* explain? 21:52:57 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 21:53:18 sebaseba_ [n=carnieri@189.32.41.195] has joined #lisp 21:53:22 -!- sebaseba [n=carnieri@189.32.41.195] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:53:30 -!- sebaseba_ is now known as sebaseba 21:53:40 *Adlai* wants Krystof to explain mutually recursive struct slot type declarations! 21:53:47 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:53:53 (briefly) 21:54:16 make it a global - *briefly* :D 21:54:20 ziga`: looks bad => Word is true but does nothing to imply Word => looks bad 21:54:37 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 21:54:43 jdz: I agree..but was just thinking why the open source stuff is not even considered in the conversation 21:54:48 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 21:55:16 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 21:56:07 dralston [n=dralston@174.1.79.49] has joined #lisp 21:56:07 Adlai: I'm not sure what there is to understand. If you bootstrap by depending on yourself exactly a la CMUCL, then you can use them, because both structures exist before you define them 21:56:39 Krystof: I'm wondering about them in user code, not in the compiler 21:56:52 Adlai: if you behave like a good CL citizen, you can't, because one of the structures has to be born before the other, so the type declaration is compiled in a different type environment from when code is executed 21:57:03 which is a nono by CLtS 3.2.2.3 21:57:23 right, I've found that out myself 21:57:55 it sounded as though SBCL could deal with that in user code, but I guess I misinterpreted your explanation earlier 21:58:23 Krystof: thanks, now when is SBCL 1.0.33 coming out? just kidding hehe 21:58:45 ziga`: in 30 days 21:59:41 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 21:59:44 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:47 ziga: you should ask where the change log for SBCL 1.0.33 is ...hehehe 22:00:00 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@217.18.135.36] has quit [] 22:00:35 in the NEWS file 22:00:42 lol 22:01:18 I was hinting at krystof's reaction to that queation yeaterday....lol 22:02:15 I missed it. 22:02:30 but that was for 1.0.32...krystoff had some input about how to use a spoon 22:03:28 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.203.111] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:04:06 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:08 Xach: for the bystander it wa amuzing ;) 22:04:25 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:04:37 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:06:04 gaze_ [n=gaze@169.231.36.86] has joined #lisp 22:06:49 -!- jdz [n=jdz@84.237.142.223] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 22:07:29 -!- gaze [n=gaze@ResNet-36-86.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:10:15 levy: sure, sb-pcl::sort-applicable-methods, or sort-methods, as used in gf-sealing.lisp. You still have to combine them according to the gf's method combination. 22:10:18 completely off topic ...all the branches/latest stuff you guys are talking about ...is that the stuff clbuild uses? 22:11:24 Word 2007, TeX 1970.. 22:11:33 pkhuong, I'm trying to do with compute-effective-method and expanding call-method and make-method on my own to calls to local functions with the methods' bodies 22:12:15 rvirding [n=chatzill@h60n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:12:46 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:13:36 getting something funcallable out of compute-effective-method turns out to be mildly tricky 22:15:24 gonzojive_ [n=red@DNab422073.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 22:16:58 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:17:45 Harag: I think they're talking about development in the SBCL repo 22:18:05 clbuild works through VCSs, so in a very distant sense it uses these... but not really. 22:18:07 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:19:29 JohnnyL [i=excellen@24.47.11.152] has joined #lisp 22:19:36 is lisp stackless? 22:19:46 no, there's a stack. 22:20:00 ok 22:20:01 JohnnyL: that depends on the implementation 22:20:01 JohnnyL: lisp doesn't specify that. 22:20:09 JohnnyL: some scheme implementations heap-allocate stack frames and link them together ("stackless") 22:20:23 or rather, Lisp has many features which could be implemented using something like the C stack 22:20:50 JohnnyL: mostly there's a concensus that the stackless design's disadvantages outweigh its advantages. you can get fast continuations with a hybrid approach instead of heap allocating everything 22:21:01 Adlai: I was just remembering that the clbuild guys said something about the fact that you had to remember they used the "latest" stuff so it could im-pack on your "life" 22:21:45 Adlai: well one advantage of the stackless approach is you don't need to reserve any space for per-thread call stacks, and so you can spawn a large number of 'lightweight' threads that share a heap for call frames 22:21:52 Adlai: this could be valuable even in common lisp 22:22:00 JohnnyL: What kind of a question is that? 22:22:08 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:22:09 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 22:22:21 JohnnyL: Is C stackless? 22:22:22 [and good evening everyone] 22:23:00 *Adlai* wonders when "good morning" and "good evening" will make it into beach's abbrev file... 22:23:17 thats slava,. 22:23:35 thanks slave. 22:23:35 hehe 22:23:35 p 22:23:36 :P 22:23:37 JohnnyL: yes, that is THE slava pestov! 22:23:49 Adlai hahaha 22:24:08 what is with Guest12345 nicks that seem to pop up? 22:24:34 JohnnyL: You have been asking strange questions like that here for more than 3 years. What is your motivation? 22:24:34 slava: nick protection. 22:24:48 slava: interesting. I guess there actually isn't that much extremely stack-based about CL, but it does have a few stackish concepts (dynamic extent, especially the condition system) 22:24:51 slava: check this out 22:24:54 -!- Adlai is now known as god` 22:25:01 hmm, ok, the nick is in use 22:25:11 Adlai: they were there, but then I re-installed my system. 22:25:23 but if it weren't, because it's a reserved nick, after a few seconds, my nick would change to Guest123253 22:25:27 -!- god` is now known as Adlai 22:25:40 Adlai: I also had HS for the Common Lisp Hyper Spec, and CL for Common Lisp. 22:26:28 slava: that'll work with any registered nickname that's not online atm. 22:26:31 ok 22:28:07 Adlai: gm was "Good morning." 22:28:22 Adlai: gev was "Good evening" 22:28:26 etc. 22:28:37 gav was "Gavino", I hope, right? 22:28:57 heh! He doesn't deserve an abbrev. 22:29:15 but you need to tell him to get lost so often, it might be worth one! 22:29:16 haha 22:29:16 But I am glad I have managed to make people think about the utility of abbrevs. 22:29:35 how do they work? ie, do you type the abbrev and then the expansion text gets inserted? 22:30:02 -!- varjagg [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:30:07 Adlai: Yeah, whenever you type a separator, like space or punctuation, it gets expanded. 22:31:16 Adlai: Try it: C-x a g (or it used to be) for defining an abbrev. 22:31:54 C-x a g runs the command add-global-abbrev, [snip] 22:32:06 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:32:31 Yeah, there is also one for mode-specific abbrevs, but I can't remember the key sequence. 22:32:51 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 22:33:34 C-x a + it seems 22:34:21 A screenshot of my McCLIM app with freetype rendering.. pretttty nice http://www.shrani.si/f/Z/Jb/1M684UGH/lol.png 22:35:02 ziga`: very funny 22:35:11 :D 22:35:15 -!- sebaseba [n=carnieri@189.32.41.195] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:35:28 sebaseba [n=carnieri@189.32.41.195] has joined #lisp 22:35:52 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-146.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:36:12 ziga`: What does the truetype one look like? 22:36:18 a minute 22:36:32 And IRC is one of the modes recognized by abbrev-mode, so you can get things like IIRC to expand to what it stand for, making you look like a very fast typist. 22:37:05 Now we know the truth about beach! 22:37:21 take away his editor macros, and he is nothing! 22:37:26 beach: Last time, you hinted that your metafont renderer can be used as a mcclim backend. How would one go about trying this? 22:37:26 ziga`: Yes, pretty nice. 22:37:50 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 22:37:56 -!- JohnnyL [i=excellen@24.47.11.152] has left #lisp 22:38:07 Wait... 22:38:08 deepfire: I have never tried to hide anything. It is just that people weren't very interested! :) 22:38:10 Adlai? 22:38:18 Are you THE Adlai, who could be counted as one of the Young Lispers?! 22:39:20 Sikander: yes...? 22:39:25 Sikander: Not quite. I was saying CLIM/McCLIM is so flexible that you can actually do your rendering on a per-pane basis, which is what I was doing to render that font. 22:39:30 *Sikander* is in awe. 22:39:47 Sikander: I'll dig up the code. Hold on... 22:39:57 beach: You already gave me the code 22:40:03 beach: I tried it out, looks great 22:40:04 Ah, OK. 22:40:10 Thanks! 22:40:17 beach: except for the very small font... 22:40:23 Sikander: here, an improved version.. http://www.shrani.si/f/1K/Bd/l2AfETz/lol2.png 22:40:23 eh, pointsize 22:40:54 ziga`: Heheheh Is that freetype or truetype? 22:40:59 a bit fuzzier.. all in all freetype is much more usable when there is lots of text 22:41:00 Sikander: I haven't seen a font that renders as well on that small size. If you know of one, I would like to know. 22:41:01 *Sikander* guesses truetype 22:41:05 truetype - lisp native 22:41:21 saikatc [n=saikatc@76.228.82.245] has joined #lisp 22:41:53 pkhuong, wow, I managed to make it work for that somewhat convoluted example 22:41:53 beach: No, I haven't either. But the rendering looks very good for even the smaller pointsizes (better than freetype IMO and definately better than truetype) 22:42:13 *deepfire* can't shrug off the association between Adlai and Planescape: Torment.. 22:42:14 Sikander: Of course! I designed it that way! 22:42:22 heheh 22:42:29 deepfire: what? 22:42:46 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:42:50 ziga`: It looks pretty good (as TrueType goes). 22:43:58 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 22:44:00 it seems to me in SBCL that streams will not be closed when run-program has option :wait nil 22:44:01 Adlai, I think Planescape: Torment had a characted by your name. 22:44:08 *character 22:44:23 beach: is your algorithm going to be included in mcclim - I mean is it usable from the API or is it only a test for now? 22:44:24 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-146.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:44:56 -!- sebaseba [n=carnieri@189.32.41.195] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:45:00 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-146.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:45:00 pkhuong, before, after, around, primary methods, and call-next-method for standard-generic-functions with normal method combination should work 22:45:02 sebaseba [n=carnieri@189.32.41.195] has joined #lisp 22:45:28 ziga`: The `l' looks horrible, and the capital `O' is not symmetric, etc. etc. 22:45:33 I bet there are corner cases, but I think this should be enough for make-instance and friends 22:45:56 if you compare truetype and freetype version side by side, then freetype looks a look better 22:46:00 ziga`: I am working on it. I have very limited amount of time though. 22:46:16 beach: I understand.. I hope you make it :) 22:46:39 ziga`: OK, give me the screenshot of the freetype version as well and I'll let you know what I think. 22:46:49 ziga`: Thanks. 22:47:25 -!- ruediger_ is now known as ruediger 22:47:44 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 22:47:56 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:48:36 ziga`: Though, I think you are on the right path. Most people can't tell excellent rendering from mediocre one, so nobody's going to complain. 22:49:26 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:49:26 -!- drgnvale [n=acristin@209.16.73.144] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:49:30 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.58.146] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:50:33 http://www.shrani.si/f/Z/Jb/1M684UGH/lol.png --freetype 22:50:34 ziga`: If you continue on that path, we can use your software as an example of McCLIM not being "ugly". 22:50:42 http://www.shrani.si/f/1K/Bd/l2AfETz/lol2.png -- truetype 22:50:49 hehe 22:50:59 -!- sebaseba [n=carnieri@189.32.41.195] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:51:00 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-146.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:51:07 sebaseba [n=carnieri@189.32.41.195] has joined #lisp 22:51:16 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-146.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:51:19 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:51:20 -!- sebaseba [n=carnieri@189.32.41.195] has quit [Client Quit] 22:51:54 now all that's missing is a nice 3d plot in the window ;-) 22:51:54 ziga`: That looks horrible as well, but for different reasons sometimes. 22:52:24 In fact, I prefer the mcclim-truetype version. 22:52:44 beach: do you know anything about 'theming' McCLIM - I found out that every thing is 'hand draw' so I don't know why the default look is so 'motify'... I found 'pixie.lisp' and I wonder if it is a good starting point for theming - I mean is it done correctly (I think it introduces its own classes to replace existing default ones) 22:52:56 No, wait, I'll take that back. It depends on the font size. 22:53:02 running: (loop (run-program "ls" '() :search t :wait nil :output *standard-output* :error *standard-output*)) will soon reach the limit for opened files. and there's no way to garbage collect all the opened file descriptors. 22:53:23 beach: Why do you prefer the truetype one? The top part of the lower-case letters often looks terrible! 22:53:34 ziga`: I don't know very much about it, but I think that's something that we should do. 22:54:02 ziga`` [n=user@BSN-143-132-7.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:14 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 22:54:19 Sikander: like I said, it depends on the size. 22:54:22 beach, my impression about ziga's pictures is that the freetype is less blurry, but also less correct (wrong character spacing and height). 22:54:52 I agree with deepfire. 22:55:04 and in cmucl, the content of (run-program "ls" '() :search t :wait nil :output *standard-output* :error *standard-output*) will be shown later (when new outputs reaches *standard-output*) but in SBCL I counld find a way to flush the output. is there a way to get the output? 22:55:06 -!- ziga` [n=user@BSN-143-132-35.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:55:06 And I prefer less blurry in this case 22:55:11 truetype is somewhat PDFy - perhaps you can say correct - but not that usable esp. in a GUI contex 22:55:28 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:55:41 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-146.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:55:41 deepfire: I find it depends on the size. 22:55:51 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-146.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:56:14 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-92232.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:56:17 -!- dralston [n=dralston@174.1.79.49] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:56:23 But no ordinary Windows user will notice the difference. 22:57:25 ziga``: Nice example of the difference, though! 22:57:28 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:58:14 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Client Quit] 22:58:20 I find that typically in a gui (such as mcclim) the font sizes are such that imo freetype looks better. 22:58:32 No, windows users won't see the difference. 22:58:34 good night 22:58:47 beach, speaking of these pictures, the size/spacing oddness isn't visible on the truetype's larger ones, but the lack of blurriness makes it win, yes. 22:58:51 serichsen: 'night! 22:58:52 I think if an application has excellent typesetting, it will look more professional 22:58:56 -!- serichsen [n=svante@hmbg-4d06c63f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:58:59 Sikander: they won't ? 22:59:07 -!- marioxcc-AFK [n=user@200.77.72.254] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:59:11 this is as night and day from cleartype 22:59:12 Windows users were puzzled by Apple's Safari on Windows, which used Apple's font rendering 22:59:20 they'll think it's shit 22:59:24 marioxcc-AFK [n=user@200.77.72.254] has joined #lisp 22:59:40 xristos: I mean, _notice_. 22:59:57 Windows users preferred Cleartype, to Apple's more blurry rendering 23:00:08 beach, bah, I completely wedged my sentence. 23:00:10 well if they have cleartype on the rest of the system and then blurred glyphs in mcclim 23:00:15 they'll notice yes 23:00:27 ok, then, yes 23:00:39 personally I don't like Cleartype 23:00:46 beach, speaking of these pictures, the size/spacing oddness isn't visible on the freetype's larger ones, and the lack of blurriness makes it win, yes. 23:00:49 I thought if they look at truetype on a desktop, where all is truetype, then they won't notice unless you point it out 23:01:24 xristos: even with cleartype (if it would be possible), it's still X windows.. it will always look off to windows users - but it can look 'nice' nevertheless 23:01:38 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-146.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit ["off"] 23:01:39 or better than 1990 23:01:40 :D 23:01:48 if you expect them to start X to use mcclim i guess it doesn't matter 23:01:52 because you won't get many customers 23:01:54 deepfire: You might be right. Though, rendering big fonts is easy. Try small ones. 23:02:04 lol...sorry .... but I find it very amuzing that so much of this conversation is about word and the ms world..when lisp on windows is treated like a step child most of the time when u ask about lisp stuff on windows 23:02:36 xristos: I don't know much about X on windows -- I was hoping it would be possible to deploy an application which starts and closes X as required.. 23:02:44 good luck with that 23:02:48 :) 23:03:03 But for mcclim, you could just use the windows widgets, right? 23:03:13 xristos: Well, that's not the point. Initially, we just have to convince people like Kenny and other critics that we have an advantage. 23:03:14 well what choice does one have with CL :) 23:03:18 mcclim *on windows* 23:03:29 beach: you have no advantage until you get ppl using mcclim 23:03:42 Kenny would not recognize good font rendering if you explain it to him 23:03:44 alas ppl are not swayed by technical superiority alone 23:03:47 btw, regarding Cleartype - Windows 7 (dunno about Vista, don't remember) contains an interesting tool to setup hinting/subpixel rendering etc. 23:04:22 xristos: On the other hand, people ask why they should use McCLIM and a superior rendering system would be one argument. 23:04:32 lispm: True! 23:04:36 *Xach* wishes zpb-ttf was enough to do pure-lisp text stuff 23:04:43 beach: that would be a step in the right direction 23:04:55 but you could start more easily by making impressive stuff with mcclim 23:04:56 lispm: But if he heard enough people saying it, he might think it's true. 23:05:02 i used the listener yesterday 23:05:07 it's close to worthless for me 23:05:13 o_O 23:05:20 half of the stuff doesn't work 23:05:22 Xach: zpb-ttf is your stuff right? What exactly is missing from it? Hinting information? 23:05:23 and what works is inferior to slime 23:05:24 I find the listener incredibly awesome 23:05:28 beach: his own stuff is so ugly, there is no comparison 23:05:34 xristos: Oh, I thought that was already done, but then realized it's not enough, which made me think of font rendering. 23:05:40 you all give kenny a while hard time 23:06:06 Reading kenny's rants makes me want to use mcclim. 23:06:14 lispm: The difference between Kenny and me is that I don't consider his stuff relevant, but he apparently feels the need to shit all over mine. 23:06:25 haha, right 23:06:53 The right strategy is for every Kenny rant, post a cool screenshot ;-) 23:07:09 beach: As long as you don't start ranting about how much cells sucks, and just have good stuff, we are all happy. 23:07:11 I've posted an old truetype rendering picture 23:07:15 beach this is the internet after all, everyone is shitting on everyone else 23:07:17 ziga``: it doesn't do rasterization, or hint bytecode, and it is not a 100% solution -- i only added things i knew that i needed. i think it would fall down if you tried to "serious" work with it. 23:07:32 Xach: zpb-ttf is fine for what you're using it 23:07:35 Sikander: I won't. You can count on that. 23:07:45 Guthur: Very sad, indeed. 23:07:56 xristos: yes, but every now and then i see discussion about gui work, and i'm a little sad it can't be applied in that realm without a lot of work 23:07:58 but i wouldn't pick it to render glyphs in a desktop environment 23:08:11 milanj [n=milan@77.46.203.111] has joined #lisp 23:08:14 no, it's not suitable for that 23:09:23 *lispm* dreams of Maxima formulas draw with Truetype fonts in a McCLIM listener 23:09:25 Xach: but purely theoretically - it could be made into a freetype quality library, or is there some obstacle besides a lot of work? 23:09:43 is it kenny tilton? 23:10:45 Xach is not Kenny, AFAIK 23:10:46 lispm: that's kinda my goal.. but I don't know McCLIM LOL, I've worked on wxMaxima, but I figured it cannot be pushed much further than where it is now - it communicates with Maxima basicly like a user would, whereas a lisp gui could know all about Maxima's internals 23:10:48 ziga``: no, just a lot of work. a lot less work than freetype, of course, since it sucks to write a lot of C. 23:11:57 -!- levy [n=levy@94.44.8.107] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:12:40 Xach: interesting.. I guess there is a lot of specific knowledge required to write such libraries, not many people can contribute.. lol I even learned how TTF fonts are designed by looking at your library, before that TTF was a black box for me 23:12:44 I get laughed at by my peers when I say I write stuff in lisp :( 23:13:01 quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has joined #lisp 23:13:06 ziga``: I think people don't write such libraries because they think it will probably be hard, not because it is actually hard. 23:13:10 Sikander: I hope you laugh back 23:13:13 ziga``: TrueType is acceptable to the untrained eye, and it is certainly better than some other hacks, but we know how to do better. On the other hand, doing better is going to take some effort. 23:13:18 still better than having stones thrown at you 23:13:30 lol 23:13:43 ziga``: Heheh. 23:13:44 parsing a truetype file was a lot easier than i thought, but there are a lot of details going into translating that parsed info into something pretty on a screen 23:13:59 _3b`: if I set the initial thread as the glut thread, it works. I'll fight with cf-run-loop later tonight 23:14:05 lispm: what about Maxima in a listener with OpenType fonts, everything rendered using vector graphics and ready to print at a moment's notice? 23:14:07 beach: your approach certainly seems interesting - but afaik implies designing you own fonts! 23:14:15 Everyone uses python, and when I say that some ideas of python are from lisp, they laugh even harder :( 23:14:25 weird.. 23:14:37 Xach: see http://www.suspicious.org/~night/ft.png 23:14:45 and http://www.suspicious.org/~night/aa.png 23:14:54 this is as good glyphs as you can get with freetype i think 23:15:03 ziga``: Yes, but one could imagine translating existing Truetype fonts to this formalism in order to allow "incremental improvements". 23:15:03 -!- enn [n=eli@codeanddata.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:15:03 Sikander: My peers did as wll untill people started paying for my software...;) and I am not even a goos lisp programmer ...imagine 23:15:05 with bytecode interpreter on 23:15:19 Sikander: hmm. why do they laugh ? I know many python coders, and they know it's reusing various ideas 23:15:46 koollman: well, what can I say, physicists... :) 23:16:00 oh. they aren't developers. let them laugh ;) 23:16:20 Sikander: They are probably "performance oriented" as indicated in my essay. 23:16:21 Well, I'm not a developer either. 23:16:23 ... 23:16:32 Will I know be escorted off this chatroom? 23:16:39 beach: if TTF conversion is possible - then it has a future, because nobody will design unicode fonts from scratch (probably) 23:16:40 in physics, one theory replace every previous ones. not in software development languages ;) 23:16:59 even in physics that hardly happens 23:17:10 Sikander: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Essays/psychology.html 23:17:12 (I know. basic oversimplification) 23:17:19 yeah :) 23:17:25 Sikander: I'm a physics student.. yes, python is what passes as programming these days it saddens me deep in my heart :) 23:17:30 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.196] has joined #lisp 23:17:39 ziga``: well, it IS programming. 23:17:49 the sad thing is not knowing anything else 23:17:52 ziga``: Of course it is possible, you just don't get the advantages of the Metafont-like system I designed. 23:18:04 ziga``: I think python is nice. But what I like about it, is what I like about lisp. And in lisp it's done better! Also lisp has more stuff I like 23:18:30 beach: We just need a converter: TTF->BMF (Beach MetaFont) 23:18:33 beach: all this talk and no code :) can I get something to look at or try? 23:18:54 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:19:05 lol 23:19:08 ziga``: Oh, sorry, I thought you had it. Hold on... 23:19:12 beach: Hey, your essay seems like a nice read 23:19:27 Sikander: thanks! 23:19:50 ziga``: I've tried beach's code. Nice stuff. if you make a TTF->BMF, we can all rejoice! 23:19:53 Yeah, I liked it as well.. 23:19:58 Sikander: yes there are good things in Python but in Lisp there are hundreds more, something like that -- I think you can laugh back safely, perhaps that will get them to try Lisp 23:20:38 python enables you to be ignorant about how computer really operates 23:20:49 thats the bad thing 23:20:59 ziga``: so does lisp, really 23:21:10 my computer is made of conses. 23:21:23 shadowhywind [n=shadowhy@adsl-76-199-163-42.dsl.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:24 Xach: yeah, well, mine isn't. ;) 23:21:51 koollman: in a way yes - it's really easy to write inefficient code in Lisp, perhaps more than in C-like languages 23:22:28 hay all, just wanted to say thanks again for all the help earlier, I finally figured it out. Btw is there a lisp command to go from prefix to infix expressions? 23:23:22 why would you want to do that? 23:23:37 or anyone for that matter. 23:23:39 peddie_ [n=peddie@c-98-210-236-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:40 there's lisp for you 23:23:41 :D 23:24:24 Sikander: personally, I probabley would never do, However I have an assignment that I have to do it for. 23:24:44 Just wanted to see if there was a nice built in feature, before spending time on it.... hehe 23:24:48 I think there's a package for that 23:25:07 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.203.111] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:25:59 But if it is an assignment, I probably shouldn't point out http://www.cliki.net/infix 23:26:06 So please forget it 23:26:39 hehe forget what *eyes shift back and forth* 23:26:45 ... apparently there's even an infix feature?! 23:27:05 ziga``: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/McCLIM-Framebuffer/ 23:27:18 ziga``: Not very organized at the moment. 23:27:29 but seriously thanks!! This is probabley our only lisp program for the semester, and the prof spent 1 day (1hr 15min) talking about lisp and that was it.. 23:27:34 beach: It's time for you to put it on some github-like thing. It's what the cool kids do these days 23:27:56 ah, 1hr 15min. Enough to learn lisp. 23:28:06 Sikander: I guess that makes me a "not cool kid". 23:28:09 Now to understand it... 23:28:09 beach: thanks! 23:28:09 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 23:28:32 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:28:34 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-105-179.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 23:28:40 Sikander: and then most of it was just how to use emacs, he covered car/cdr and setq, thats about it... lovely teaching huh? 23:28:48 beach: well, distribution via http url based on requests on irc is definately the most efficient way... 23:29:00 beach: performance v perfection? Hmmm... 23:29:01 ;) 23:29:37 shadowhywind: Well, since I never had a lisp course, I wouldn't know a good one from a bad one... But it sounds... not good... 23:30:30 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-98-210-236-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:30:54 Sikander: Life of someone like me gets complicated. I have to do research and teaching, and administration. My days get chopped up in small pieces. Hanging out here is a hobby to which I can't allocate as much time as I would like. That's too bad, but that's the way it is. 23:31:49 _stern_ [n=seelenqu@tmo-104-162.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:52 beach: I was just joking, of course. I like your essay. What was the language feature you avoided for 10 years? 23:32:03 milanj [n=milan@77.46.203.111] has joined #lisp 23:32:05 -!- _stern_ [n=seelenqu@tmo-104-162.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:32:05 Sikander: CLOS 23:32:28 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-59-8.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:32:44 Sikander: I got the joke, but the current frustration made me want to respond to it. Oh, well. 23:32:45 beach: Ah, I suspected. I avoided it because I read acl. But after reading pcl, I sort of carefully started using it now. Seems pretty nice. 23:33:04 Sikander: CLOS? It is brilliant! 23:33:08 beach: Sorry about that. I didn't mean to irritate/frustrate you 23:33:17 beach: Hey, I'm a novice... 23:33:29 Sikander: No, no need to apologize! 23:33:30 beach: The problem is that the only oo I ever did was C++. I didn't like it. 23:33:37 beach: It convinced me that oo sucks 23:33:39 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@DNab422073.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 23:33:58 beatch: regarding your essay a igree ...but you have to add the fact that people swop between the two positions some times becuase of money(or other shor term gains)...when i have to produce something for pay i will stick to what i think works (and I think i know) ...but when i dont have time and money constriants I am happy explore...yes you talk about students but they have a simalar framework of restraint in my mind..input versus output 23:34:00 beach: but how pcl explains clos made me excited and want to try it out 23:34:37 beach: so basically, c++ and acl almost made me miss clos! 23:34:41 Harag, that's an awful way to misspell one's nickname. 23:34:51 Harag: I agree, but your typing stinks. 23:35:07 -!- perdix [n=perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has quit ["A cow. A trampoline. Together they fight crime!"] 23:35:48 Sikander: In my case it was Scheme that made me (almost) miss pretty much all of CL, including CLOS. 23:36:26 Graham, actually did some damage by overhyping and focusing on macros 23:37:05 lispm: Do you mean OnLisp? It's a great book but not for beginners. 23:37:29 beach: lol ...that is because never took the time to learn how to touch type ;) 23:37:37 I briefly played with scheme, because I wanted to use the gimp non-interactively. But scheme seemed less practical, especially for that particular application (gimp scripting) 23:37:46 I find On Lisp not very practical and I tend to avoid what he introduces, but I was also thinking of his book ANSI CL 23:38:05 lispm: clos is not the answer to everything, it is very flexible but it is as easy to make a mess of things as other object systems if one is not cautious 23:38:07 ANSI CL is not very exciting as a book 23:38:09 Harag: Oh, so you missed out on the previous interesting discussion on productivity! Too bad! 23:38:15 acl is nice when put in context with another book such as pcl 23:38:20 lol 23:38:26 maybe even more so because of it's power and flexibility 23:38:29 lispm: No, but it's not too bad either. 23:38:30 dtyd [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 23:38:54 one of the best books in good programming style is AMOP 23:39:05 easy to overlook 23:39:32 lispm: I taught an entire course based on On Lisp. His idea of compile-time optimization is basically good. 23:40:01 lispm: I translated it to my students by defining a DSL similar to PostScript. 23:40:25 lispm: also PAIP which is much more general. 23:40:31 there are many good ideas in his book, unfortunately he does not show the larger picture - only pieces, and his pieces don't fit together 23:40:38 no I actually tried touch typing as a data capturer many years ago and my boss decided that he could use some of my other skills better and I never got past 45 words per minute..and that is besides the fact that I cant spell 23:40:40 yeah, I still need to get paip... 23:41:00 AMOP OTOH shows nicely how the various Lisp features play together 23:41:04 So I have to ask... Was Harag the intended nick? 23:41:05 ;) 23:41:15 hehhe 23:41:20 just kidding 23:41:39 Harag: I can't spell either, as a result of knowing 4 languages. So I use flyspell mode to help me. 23:41:41 minion: amop? 23:41:41 yes skilander its a hebrew word but font google it 23:41:42 amop: The Art of the Metaobject Protocol, an essential book for understanding the implementation of CLOS and advanced OO. See the sepcification of MOP at http://www.lisp.org/mop/ 23:41:57 skilander, cool! 23:41:57 ans i am not hebrew... 23:42:00 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 23:42:25 lispm: I agree with you, but to read AMOP, you need a few years of experience. 23:42:50 beach: (i got it right) am still battling with paredit so give me a chance...;) 23:42:57 Harag: apparently it's hungarian for fury as well 23:43:01 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 23:43:02 AMOP really shows how to implement a language in Lisp 23:43:11 i think PAIP is a great lisp introduction 23:43:11 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.203.111] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:43:12 bwhahaha 23:43:21 Harag: I'll give you as many chances as you need. 23:43:30 Guthur: You do? 23:43:30 *Sikander* really needs to get PAIP... 23:43:32 PAIP is great, but Norvig is also an active CLOS avoider 23:43:38 Sikander: that si so close to the truth...lol 23:43:44 But isn't CLOS going to be obsolete now that we have... Sheeple?! 23:43:47 like Graham 23:43:47 beach, ya though it was PCL for me 23:43:57 Sikander: Very funny! 23:44:01 Shamiq [n=Adium@wireless-165-124-117-148.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 23:44:06 but i think the first 3 chapters of PAIP are quite good 23:44:22 beach: We should switch to sheeple, just for all the flashy words! 23:44:32 *Xach* needs to re-read PAIP 23:44:34 CLOS is a wine 23:44:37 And who doesn't want to use a poop framework! 23:44:43 and then the later chapters are nice, the macro example is a little light though 23:44:50 Guthur: Every chapter is good, but as an introduction, I'm not convinced. 23:44:53 beach: then you are a better person than I am..but atleast I am using tab completion now to make sure I dont get your nick wrong again ...so I am learning 23:45:04 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-ehhjljwyxnyafvty] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:45:13 tab completion ftw! 23:45:32 How long did it take windows (dosbox, whatever) to implement that? Or does it even have that? 23:45:50 Harag: I am proud that you seem to be a great learner! Continue your quest! 23:45:52 beach, my perspective was tainted though, like i said i use practical common lisp first, i then looked at ANSI common lisp, before PAIP 23:46:01 -!- Shamiq [n=Adium@wireless-165-124-117-148.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has left #lisp 23:46:13 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@tmo-100-106.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:46:16 well irc clients have it so we learn ;) 23:46:23 Guthur: cheating! 23:46:44 Harag: Still, I think you just made my day. 23:46:58 hehehe 23:47:11 glad to be of service ;) 23:47:59 ericjames [n=ericjeld@205.149.71.156] has joined #lisp 23:48:05 beach: to be honest i probably learnt more of the obscure things here, and from tinkering, still lots to learn though 23:48:30 Harag: I am perfectly serious. I define my utility by how much I can influence others to become more efficient. I did the math. I know that the salaray for the rest of my life is less than the value of the increased productivity by someone like you. 23:48:35 i am still waiting to make my first macro, thought i need one today, but it was a false dawn 23:49:02 drafael [n=tapio@118.90.128.167] has joined #lisp 23:49:18 Woo, I think I made my first proper use of a macro a few days ago! 23:49:32 -!- drafael [n=tapio@118.90.128.167] has quit [Client Quit] 23:49:32 Guthur: We all still have lots to learn. 23:49:46 Sikander: Congratulations! 23:50:09 woo! 23:50:31 beach: I think I understand ...but you must also admit that there is an inherent pleasure in passing on skills in your domain...;) 23:50:41 Well, once I put the code out there, someone will laugh at it. But for now, Woo! 23:50:49 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:51:27 or skills for that matter 23:51:48 ah, yes, the pleasure of seeing you tought something 23:52:05 Harag: Sure. That's probably why I picked this job. 23:52:06 and then the depression that follows, when the student surpasses you 23:52:14 ;) 23:52:23 lol 23:52:35 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:52:44 Sikander: that should be your greatest reward 23:52:49 Sikander: No, that's not only totally normal, but a pure pleasure! 23:53:47 snap 23:54:01 *lispm* hmm, FriCAS in ECL seems to hang... 23:54:11 heheh 23:54:29 so... fricas v maxima...? 23:54:43 I use maxima. Is FriCAS better at certain things? 23:54:49 Sikander: You can't imagine the emotion of being on the thesis commitee of a PhD student of yours, the importance of which you can only guess. It is one of the absolute best moments in the life of a university professor. 23:55:54 beach: we banter but groking something new is a reward in it self for me...I am always open to new things...it keeps me young ;) 23:56:05 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:56:08 beach: well, I hope to be one someday. Still stuck postdoc-ing 23:56:23 FriCAS is a version of Axiom 23:56:28 Harag: Great, that means you are perfection-oriented. 23:56:35 ah, axiom 23:56:41 Axiom / FriCAS has the better language compared to Maxima 23:56:45 I never could get the hang of it 23:57:01 Sikander: You'll get there! 23:57:11 yes, I tried axiom, but gave up pretty soon. I got... confused by the different domains 23:57:23 beach: thanks for the encouragement. 23:57:24 beach: I am far from a profectionest ...but damn am I curious...;) 23:57:41 beach: If only i was in CS, then I could ask you for a reference letter ;) 23:57:53 a reference from the famous beach... whoa.. 23:58:02 Harag: Your typing still stinks. You need to work on that! 23:58:17 :D 23:58:19 lol 23:58:33 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-105-179.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Success] 23:58:43 Harag: you need to install a dictionary in your tab completion lookup 23:59:14 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h60n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 23:59:48 -!- dtyd [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)]