00:00:54 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:35 anyway one in the uk? what time is it? 00:08:37 gaze [n=gaze@ResNet-36-86.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 00:09:24 hi, i are seeking a threading warper library for portability 00:09:29 ¿some sugesstion? 00:09:33 marioxcc: bordeaux-threads 00:11:02 thanks Xach 00:11:09 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:11:56 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:12:20 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:14:03 _8david [n=user@pD9540961.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 00:14:36 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:16:35 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:19:29 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 00:22:07 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-40-213.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 00:23:33 -!- tcr [n=tcr@138.246.7.146] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:23:36 redblue [i=star@ppp242.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:30:10 -!- _8david` [n=user@pD9540151.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:37:58 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 00:37:58 if i want to access an C++ lib will i have to wrap it C to use CFFI, it mentions C++ support being incomplete on the CFFI website 00:41:07 correct 00:41:32 it all looks mighty painful 00:45:26 feel free to add C++ support to CFFI 00:45:30 patches are welcome 00:46:07 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:46:10 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 00:46:56 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 00:50:18 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:51:34 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:51:43 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 00:56:03 fe[nl]ix you don't happen to know any good sources on information regarding wrapping C++ with C 00:56:35 actually sorry there is better channels for that 00:57:39 Guthur: http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/mixing-c-and-cpp.html#faq-32.6 00:58:08 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 00:59:38 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 00:59:45 -!- ziga`` [n=user@BSN-142-123-220.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:00:45 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6FDEC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:00 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:01:14 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-1-190.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:47 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:09:46 so if i wrap the interface portion of the api i can pretty much leave the rest as is? 01:10:51 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has joined #lisp 01:11:23 yes 01:14:47 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-215-154.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:15:47 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.192.23] has joined #lisp 01:19:05 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-140-191-199.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 01:25:12 -!- quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:27:36 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:29:20 -!- sykopomp [n=root@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit ["Yow! Legally-imposed CULTURE-reduction is CABBAGE-BRAINED!"] 01:29:22 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@125.236.55.43] has joined #lisp 01:29:37 sykopomp [n=root@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 01:30:27 -!- sykopomp [n=root@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Client Quit] 01:30:43 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 01:30:58 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 01:34:47 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.72.35] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:39:11 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 01:39:11 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 01:44:20 -!- sepult [n=levgue@87.78.31.117] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:53:06 Demosthenes [n=demo@167.206.154.26] has joined #lisp 01:57:59 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:04:54 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@88.73.199.65] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:06:50 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:11:18 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:11:30 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 02:12:09 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:12:14 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 02:13:20 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:17:21 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6FDEC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 02:19:21 ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:34 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 02:26:47 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:32:16 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 02:32:16 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:32:52 Good morning! 02:34:00 It looks like my colleague is working on getting SBCL to work on NetBSD/AMD64. 02:37:23 Good 22:37 to you. 02:43:21 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.192.23] has quit [] 02:44:25 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@75.60.30.156] has joined #lisp 02:47:37 -!- ruediger_ [n=ruediger@188-23-69-237.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:49:54 hi, I think WRITE TO STRING and PRIN1-TO-STRING are putting a newline when I can't have it in there. any way to get around it? http://paste.lisp.org/display/89233 02:51:23 <_3b> egn: turn off *print-pretty* ? 02:51:53 _3b: thanks 02:52:19 <_3b> or i guess pass :pretty nil to write-to-string 02:52:32 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633767.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 02:52:52 ah, okay 02:54:32 -!- ElDragonLies is now known as ElDragonUnvoiced 02:57:49 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-1-190.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:06:19 i would eat a horse if I could have color lisp 03:06:33 like with color forth 03:06:56 a lisp that boots from a floppy and uses a non-standard keyboard layout, and stores source with a custom non-ascii encoding? 03:10:00 "floppy"? What's that? 03:10:09 well may be not all that but code loaded as text and being compiled when necessary. in other distribution of code always as code 03:10:54 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:12:09 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.191] has joined #lisp 03:13:00 fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:12 Well I guess I'll hang out with the cool guys from now on 03:13:17 :D 03:13:43 *Adlai* wonders whether fatalnix1995 and fe[nl]ix are connected 03:14:38 no 03:15:09 yes 03:15:40 i am a mentor of a robotics team, and our team number is 1995... 03:15:42 (thus, with these humble beginnings, began a strange, long, occasionally close relationship.) 03:15:48 oh no, just fatalnix1995 and fatalnix 03:16:11 the channel requests i have my team number in my name though, if you are wondring 03:18:12 wonder, that is. 03:18:41 who is fe[nl]ix? 03:20:16 /whois fe[nl]ix ; Adlai was only noting the nick-similarity 03:21:12 heh 03:21:47 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.209.245] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 03:22:23 I'm still on chapter 4 -.- 03:22:35 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.135.85] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:25:13 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:25:24 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 03:27:09 -!- necroforest [n=jarred@pool-96-255-62-122.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:28:19 -!- ElDragonUnvoiced is now known as DoingMathForJesu 03:31:03 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:31:14 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 03:31:31 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [] 03:31:58 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 03:32:05 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:32:11 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 03:32:30 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@75.60.30.156] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:34:48 Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #lisp 03:35:07 -!- DoingMathForJesu [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:35:54 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2F211.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:36:14 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2F211.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:34 Chapter 4 of? 03:43:24 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-5de570d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 03:44:03 Practical Common Lisp 03:44:50 Ok. 03:45:16 Does CL have a canonically bad book? 03:45:19 I have it, but prefer Graham. What does 4 cover? 03:45:46 Syntax and Symantics 03:45:49 *caoliver* scratches head. 03:46:04 so ts going over symbols and functions and equalities and stuff 03:46:32 Ah. eq vs eql vs equal and that sort of thing? 03:46:36 yeah 03:46:54 right now its pretty boring, compared to what I thought it'd be lol 03:47:38 fatalnix1995: it gets much more interesting later 03:47:41 There's plenty of fun to be had. I think Seibel tends to pitch the subject gently though. 03:48:08 It's Scheme, but if you want more of a mind ache later, you should read SICP. 03:48:21 You should read it regardless. 03:49:45 *caoliver* is trying to bake popovers in a silicone muffin pan. Things go weirdly for him. 03:49:56 chat hmm 03:49:58 hmm* 03:50:04 it doesnt work too well that way! 03:50:12 man we make HUGE popovers 03:50:18 they are like gigantic 03:50:22 sah0s [n=anto@10.134.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 03:50:44 it might make what my step mother calls flopovers. 03:50:56 Hah! 03:51:17 fuzzfuzz [n=fuzzfuzz@99.248.25.157] has joined #lisp 03:51:23 because the pans arent deep enough 03:51:32 Well it was that or popcorn. 03:51:36 hmm 03:51:39 popcorn, good idea. 03:51:41 what would lisp look like without all the compromises? 03:52:02 I just made three pancakes with pancake mix that said makes 15 pancakes 03:52:08 Which compromises in particular. (Warning: put on your nomex!) 03:52:22 nomex? 03:52:30 Fireproof clothing. 03:52:33 ah 03:52:39 G0SUB_ [n=ghoseb@117.195.98.158] has joined #lisp 03:53:01 I figure anyone's notion on the flaws of Lisp is likely to provoke controversy. 03:53:20 angel_ [n=angel@221.223.123.167] has joined #lisp 03:54:05 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:54:34 i think numeric literals are a compromise, the original mccarthy paper didn't advocate numbers :) 03:54:47 how can i define a function to generate other function by parameter, f.g: (gen-fun 'name) to generate definition of funciton 'angel-name 03:56:23 Well, an argument about loop might generate as much heat as the ever-popular emacs-vs-vi battles. 03:56:36 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 03:57:04 I have to confess to being an anti-looper for aesthetic reasons. 03:59:14 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:00:40 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-5de570d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:06:09 (angel's question was answered in #emacs) 04:07:06 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:10:56 but it don't work 04:11:03 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@68.178.103.210] has joined #lisp 04:11:16 it don't work in clisp 04:11:57 BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:20 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp242.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:15:36 for CL you can use (intern (format nil "angel-~A" name)) instead of (concat ...) 04:18:17 -!- sah0s [n=anto@10.134.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [] 04:18:18 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:18:30 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 04:20:14 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 04:22:03 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.254.207] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:24:57 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@68.178.103.210] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"] 04:25:06 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.165.8] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:26:22 ... boy, it's fun to search for an error message and find your own 7-month-old patch. 04:26:40 thats funny 04:28:26 -!- fuzzfuzz [n=fuzzfuzz@99.248.25.157] has left #lisp 04:30:21 nipra [n=nipra@117.195.98.158] has joined #lisp 04:32:02 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@68.178.103.210] has joined #lisp 04:32:58 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 04:33:45 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:34:47 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["brb"] 04:35:20 lol 04:44:55 ace4016 [i=ace4016@76.170.134.79] has joined #lisp 04:49:18 hadronzoo [n=user@65.212.107.11] has joined #lisp 04:52:28 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-183-99-177.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:56 -!- Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:04:03 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@68.178.103.210] has quit [] 05:07:20 danlei`` [n=user@pD9E2F211.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:29 -!- danlei`` is now known as danlei 05:07:59 -!- danlei is now known as Guest16869 05:09:04 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-183-99-177.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:09:47 fatalnix1995: you should hop on the downeaster for the next boston lisp meeting. 05:10:33 oh really? boston? 05:10:39 guess where I'm from? 05:10:48 america 05:10:51 ... 05:11:01 Bangor Maine :D its only 4 hours. 05:11:32 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:11:33 two hours to portland, three hours on the train, and you're there. 05:11:34 unfortunately I don't know that much about lisp 05:11:35 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 05:11:52 you won't learn much more about it by talking about popovers and pancakes. 05:12:01 lol 05:12:20 plus I'm 21 without a liscense :( 05:12:54 good news, my mother gave me 400$ on my birthday 05:13:15 so you can take the bus to portland 05:13:37 I spent the first 100 with a bunch more of my money for the les paul, and the rest for drivers ed soon. Yes, I take the bus to portland all the time. 05:13:41 it's this thursday! 05:13:45 my mother lives around there 05:14:04 http://fare.livejournal.com/148335.html has the details 05:14:54 :( 05:15:05 I have class until 3:45 05:15:39 I could do both homework assignments and say I cant make it 05:17:29 and also another problem is getting back when i can't afford a night at a motel 05:18:14 I will think about it :) 05:20:22 -!- angel_ [n=angel@221.223.123.167] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:22:11 -!- danlei` [n=user@pD9E2F211.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:22:25 envi_home2 [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 05:24:20 looking for motels now 05:26:17 whatever happened to the old days when you spent 15 bucks to stay at an inn 05:29:36 inflation 05:30:14 -!- Guest16869 is now known as danlei 05:30:17 Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #lisp 05:34:30 -!- Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit [Client Quit] 05:38:07 redblue [i=star@207.253.108.21] has joined #lisp 05:41:53 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:42:51 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@74.85.239.20] has joined #lisp 05:43:55 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:05 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 05:44:17 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@68.178.103.210] has joined #lisp 05:45:38 Unfortunately, I'm from Michigan, so it's a bit more. 05:49:00 man if lisp could boot, had its main code directly in ram as source with ram allocated as necessary for compiled code, i would not be using linux. now if someone knows of a lisp implementation on color forth... 05:49:25 minion: tell rares about movitz 05:49:25 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-30-156.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:49:26 rares: direct your attention towards movitz: Movitz is a Common Lisp implementation that targets the x86 PC architecture "on-the-metal". http://www.cliki.net/movitz 05:49:52 giggity giggity goo! 05:50:08 http://tclispers.org The video from my presentation's up \o/ 05:51:12 wheres the part I'm snarfing down food? 05:51:33 slava: here and there. There's a bit near the beginning where you're leaning forward shoving something in your face. 05:51:54 sweet 05:52:05 :D 05:52:43 If I didn't know better, I would've guessed I was hopped up on caffeine, cocaine, or both. 05:52:59 goodnight, #lisp 05:53:09 nite 05:53:55 jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 05:54:08 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@68.178.103.210] has quit [] 05:56:19 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:01:12 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 06:01:58 movitz is GOD 06:02:01 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@tomoyuki28jp.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 06:02:08 now where can I download it 06:02:25 and how do I dual boot that sucker 06:02:35 minion: movitz? 06:02:36 movitz: Movitz is a Common Lisp implementation that targets the x86 PC architecture "on-the-metal". http://www.cliki.net/movitz 06:02:48 i got docs from there 06:02:54 Any idea why I am getting this error? 'The name "CFFI-UFFI-COMPAT" does not designate any package.' 06:03:00 -!- envi_home2 is now known as envi^home 06:03:29 nm i got it 06:03:36 this is like heaven 06:03:39 tomoyuki28jp: because you are trying to access package which doesn't exist? 06:03:39 tomoyuki28jp: presumably because the file in which the package is defined was not loaded. 06:03:59 now how do i dual boot this sucker 06:04:21 you got docs, didn't you? 06:04:23 rares, you might start with virtualization. 06:04:31 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:04:41 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 06:04:44 stassats: long time no see :) 06:05:16 its my impression that cffi-uffi-compat doesn't define a package by that name, but by the name "UFFI". i haven't looked at it in detail, though. 06:05:22 "it is" rather 06:05:33 tomoyuki28jp: yeah, hi! 06:05:52 ayrnieu: qemu then? 06:06:08 Xach: I installed all the depending libraries with asdf-install. Maybe the dependencies broken? 06:06:16 it does define cffi-uffi-compat with a nickname "UFFI" 06:06:25 oh 06:06:46 stassats: thanks for the info 06:07:33 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@74.85.239.20] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:08:05 Ralith_ [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 06:09:18 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@125.236.55.43] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:09:21 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:09:21 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@66.112.249.119] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:09:57 uhm, I re-installed uffi with asdf-install, but I still get the same error. 06:10:48 p0a [n=user@79.131.41.47] has joined #lisp 06:11:01 Hello I've installed mcclim but some of the examples are not working properly 06:11:03 well, we've already told you what the error means, and you've told us nothing more than that you get the error. 06:11:09 tomoyuki28jp: That only gets the files onto your system. To use it, you need something like (require 'uffi) or (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :uffi) 06:11:14 They are launched but don't work as they should ie some buttons are missing I think 06:11:18 and functionality is broken 06:11:38 p0a: That is entirely possible. The code for the examples haven't been maintained. 06:11:56 aha 06:12:21 p0a: if you report it to mcclim-devel, I'll see what I can do. 06:12:24 alright. Something else: is there a mcclim tutorial? someone told me I'd find one in mcclim-0.9.6.tar.gz but I didn't 06:12:36 tomoyuki28jp: cffi-uffi-compat is not uffi's package 06:12:57 p0a - http://kantz.com/jason/clim-primer/ 06:12:59 p0a: There are several examples in the manual. 06:13:04 beach: Just send a bug repotr in To post a message to all the list members, send email to mcclim-devel@common-lisp.net. 06:13:08 but cffi's comparability layer 06:13:48 stassats: How can I install the missing package then? 06:14:12 p0a: That's fine, yes. 06:14:15 ayrnieu: great 06:14:45 beach: okay I'll get around to it. 06:14:49 Now I must go, bye 06:14:51 -!- p0a [n=user@79.131.41.47] has quit [Client Quit] 06:15:09 well, you can install cffi, or fix code which refers to cffi-uffi-compat 06:16:52 I get this error when I try to install cffi with asdf-install. 'debugger invoked on a SB-KERNEL:SIMPLE-PACKAGE-ERROR in thread #: "UFFI" is a package name, so it cannot be a nickname for "CFFI-UFFI-COMPAT".' 06:18:24 that's right 06:18:36 you can't load uffi and cffi-uffi-compat at the same time 06:18:55 You must have accidentally created a package named UFFI before doing your asdf-install, perhaps by manually loading a file in which such a package was defined. 06:21:24 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:26:29 -!- Ralith_ is now known as Ralith 06:33:25 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 06:38:13 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 06:38:55 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:41:05 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-30-156.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:41:18 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 06:44:36 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.135.85] has joined #lisp 06:51:35 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.191] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:55:02 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219.89.105.20] has joined #lisp 06:57:47 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:48 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 07:01:31 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-31-117.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:05:24 -!- Nshag [n=shag@Mix-Orleans-106-1-193.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:06:23 -!- mikezor_ is now known as mikezor 07:10:11 pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.58.146] has joined #lisp 07:17:19 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:18:57 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:20:16 Axius [n=ojof@92.82.88.142] has joined #lisp 07:23:52 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:23:55 reklama [n=s_e-b-e_@77.254.22.247] has joined #lisp 07:24:05 http://action.metaffiliation.com/suivi.php?mclic=S42665516A5D131 07:24:13 -!- reklama [n=s_e-b-e_@77.254.22.247] has left #lisp 07:25:05 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:27:36 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:30:14 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-31-117.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:30:57 *deepfire* reads more globalresearch about obamacare and dissent in the military 07:31:18 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:32:19 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-31-117.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:36:10 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:37:02 -!- ans [n=ans@user82.c3.sevnica.kabelnet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:41:48 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 07:42:37 the US military saved billions in logistics costs in thanks to a Lisp-based expert system 07:42:47 -!- fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:46:32 dissent in the military? fun 07:49:23 p_l: it's globalresearch, the Marines and Army arguing over who is tougher in a bar is probably considered a sign that the US military will collapse tomorrow 07:49:51 -!- acieroid` is now known as acieroid 07:50:42 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:50:53 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 07:52:50 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-18-249.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:53:58 fatalnix [n=fatalnix@70.16.70.118] has joined #lisp 07:54:10 -!- fatalnix is now known as fatalnix1995 07:57:37 Adamant, yes, the wars currently waged by US (both open and covert) are just and help bringing peace and democracy. 07:57:58 deepfire: no, just the first Gulf War 07:58:06 their current system is written in Haskell 07:59:33 Adamant: I like the comparison :) 07:59:58 p_l: Army and Marines arguing in a bar? 08:00:09 they do that all the time 08:00:21 by "unrest in military" I'd describe stuff like "every one who kisses ass of current government gets booted out after next elections" 08:00:42 that's the province of generals 08:01:05 Adamant: yes, I know they do - I was laughing at how some company considers it unrest :D 08:01:18 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 08:01:19 p_l: I'm exaggerating 08:01:26 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@88.73.208.117] has joined #lisp 08:01:48 sure you do, still funny :) 08:01:58 fair enough :P 08:02:17 *p_l* is rather big fan of military s-f 08:02:22 ah 08:07:12 s0ber [i=pie@118-168-233-209.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:08 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-24-36.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:12:50 Adamant: heh, I even got some little project sizzling somewhere in my head for my own s-f novel :P 08:13:01 cool 08:13:40 it's even relevant to my studies. Joy :) 08:18:04 ans [n=ans@84.41.90.82] has joined #lisp 08:18:49 -!- _8david [n=user@pD9540961.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:23:12 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229145090.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:28:28 p0a [n=user@athedsl-381233.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 08:28:35 Hello why is (= 0.1 1/10) ==> NIL 08:28:59 because 0.1 is not really 0.1 08:29:05 thanks 08:29:30 try this (= 0.1 13421773/134217728) 08:30:14 you're wrong 08:30:24 it is because 1/10 is not really 0.1, not because 0.1 is not really 0.1 08:30:45 You see, if 1/10 has computated to be 0.1, regardless of what 0.1s actual value is, then (= 0.1 1/10) would be T 08:30:50 But I got my answer, thanks. 08:31:42 p0a: The real answer is that 0.1 cannot be represented exactly as a floating-point number, so you get something close to it instead when you read it in. 08:32:02 beach: True; but the issue of (= 0.1 1/10) is more complicated 08:32:14 Is it? 08:32:21 yes. 08:32:26 TRy (= 0.1 (/ 1 10.0)) 08:32:38 as you see, (/ 1 10.0) is computated, and it is equal to 0.1, regardless of its actual representation 08:32:55 but (/ 1 10.0) is not equal to 1/10 because 1/10 is treated differently; it's precise 08:33:37 That's a different issue though. 08:33:46 * (= 0.5 1/2) 08:33:46 T 08:33:52 * (= 0.1 13421773/134217728) 08:33:53 T 08:34:00 * (= 0.1 1/10) 08:34:01 NIL 08:34:03 slava: are you slava pestov? 08:34:14 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-157-147.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:34:23 p0a: you can see the issue here is not exact -vs- inexact, but the fact that 0.1 canot be represented as a float 08:34:38 pls answer my question 08:34:56 I am, yes 08:35:11 *p0a* ignores slava 08:35:31 lletres [n=nieve@pool-96-246-68-222.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:39 -!- lletres [n=nieve@pool-96-246-68-222.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 08:35:47 lletres [n=nieve@pool-96-246-68-222.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:36:26 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-381233.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 08:36:48 he's stubborn too! 08:36:56 -!- lletres [n=nieve@pool-96-246-68-222.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 08:37:06 lletres [n=nieve@pool-96-246-68-222.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:37:59 hi 08:38:18 hello lletres 08:38:48 lletres: New here? 08:39:02 minion: floats? 08:39:03 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``floats''. 08:39:08 minion: ieee? 08:39:09 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``ieee''. 08:39:20 hmm, doesn't minion have some page about floating point? 08:40:39 p0a [n=user@athedsl-381233.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 08:40:41 minion: memo for p0a: To read more about the issues with floats that you brought up earlier, ask minon about floating-point 08:40:42 Remembered. I'll tell p0a when he/she/it next speaks. 08:40:48 Okay I realized what I did is rude so I came to apologize to slava 08:40:48 p0a, memo from Adlai: To read more about the issues with floats that you brought up earlier, ask minon about floating-point 08:41:07 minion: floating-point 08:41:07 floating-point: What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic http://docs-pdf.sun.com/800-7895/800-7895.pdf http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=103163 http://focus.hut.fi/docs/WorkShop/common/ug/goldberg1.doc.html 08:41:10 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:41:17 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-381233.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 08:41:19 no 08:41:28 p0a: these are recognized problems in floating point, not in CL 08:41:31 I am trying to use vim for lisp 08:41:37 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-168-233-209.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:41:46 lletres: If you are not new, you must have changed nicks. 08:41:48 honestly emacs feels clunky 08:42:15 beach: been long ago I was here for help with casting spells 08:42:18 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:42:37 casting spells is very difficult... I find macros much easier to understand. 08:42:43 lletres, I use vim. 08:42:58 Adlai, keep on trying ;) 08:43:14 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@167.206.154.26] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:43:19 lpolzer: how to sync sbcl with vim? 08:43:41 I see vim has a :set lisp option 08:43:58 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:44:00 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 08:44:03 morphling [n=stefan@89.15.131.20] has joined #lisp 08:44:06 what's the file name I need to use for lisp? .lp? 08:44:06 lletres, what exactly do you mean by "sync"? 08:44:14 lletres, use .lisp 08:44:19 k 08:44:25 lpolzer: run the code 08:44:39 lletres: do you know about SLIME? I think there are similar systems for integrating vim with a CL running swank. 08:45:06 pretty :) 08:45:21 Adlai, I don't know of any vim stuff that communicates with swank, but there are similar (less powerful) systems 08:45:46 lletres, I just reload the ASD system in a separate terminal after I've made changes in vim 08:45:47 :set lisp effectively turn on its syntax 08:45:54 lletres, and use the REPL directly for introspection 08:45:58 doesn't Nekthuth talk to swank? 08:45:58 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 08:46:16 I don't know though, I use Emacs for CL 08:46:34 Adlai, Nekthuth is the combination of a vim plugin and a common lisp library [...] 08:46:50 jesus, what a name 08:47:22 yeah, I can't remember the spelling at all. 08:47:45 lpolzer: true. I wonder why not just use swank... 08:47:55 lpolzer: what do you mean, sbcl on a different terminal? 08:48:06 Adlai, beats me :( 08:48:20 what's 'REPL directly for introspection' ? 08:48:34 lletres, I start up one terminal window for SBCL (or whatever Lisp), then load my system via ASDF 08:48:44 lletres, in other terminal windows I just edit my code as I like 08:48:46 lletres: you can use different terminal instances, or a multiplexer like GNU Screen, to edit code in one terminal and run lisp in another 08:48:57 lletres, then I reload the code via ASDF in the Lisp terminal 08:49:17 err.. I know that, I am now on a screen session. 08:49:38 ok got it 08:49:56 lletres, by using the REPL for introspection I've meant making use of functions like DESCRIBE, APROPOS and TRACE directly on the Lisp prompt to get information 08:50:17 whereas with swank you'd use some menu or key combination to invoke this functionality 08:50:29 lpolzer: thanks for the support, I didn't wanna be the weirdo trying weird stuff. 08:51:07 wait REPL is not SBCL? 08:51:38 REPL is a general term 08:51:40 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 08:52:06 every Lisp I know has a REPL 08:52:07 gotcha 08:52:29 like every interactive shell I know has a command prompt :) 08:52:33 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 08:53:11 is there any pre-defined function for printing lists in some kind of tree-form in mzscheme? 08:54:32 schoppenhauer, if there is you probably will be told in #scheme 08:56:16 lpolzer: ok I have a screen session split with sbcl and vim. How do I load the file inside sbcl? 08:56:40 lletres, use (load "/path/to/file") 08:57:14 also, be sure to use 'rlwrap' to make use of its history functionality in sbcl 08:57:20 Demosthenes [n=demo@167.206.154.26] has joined #lisp 08:59:46 rlwrap is in sbcl? 08:59:59 no, it's a separate program 09:00:24 http://freshmeat.net/projects/rlwrap/ 09:00:48 after installing it you just use 'rlwrap sbcl' instead of plain 'sbcl' to start SBCL 09:02:15 I replaced /usr/bin/sbcl by a script which automatically starts rlwrap and then the original sbcl on my server ^^ 09:02:21 hawt, is on my distro 09:03:07 schoppenhauer, I have an alias for that too 09:03:15 lletres, it's a popular program 09:04:09 how is your alias? 09:04:48 :) 09:04:52 s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-228-157.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 09:04:55 alias sbcl="rlwrap sh $HOME/sbcl.git/run-sbcl.sh" 09:05:33 if you run a system-wide sbcl you can just use: alias sbcl="rlwrap sbcl" 09:07:43 cool, now how to get the functions descriptions either within vim or sbcl? 09:08:16 that'll be all right? 09:08:49 after all having two screens isn't much difference than emacs with the split window 09:09:00 use (describe 'get-universal-time) in the sbcl window 09:09:08 do i need slime with any of this? 09:09:17 no 09:09:22 ok 09:09:29 it's bare-bones 09:09:52 Davidbrcz [n=david@212.198.78.230] has joined #lisp 09:15:15 oh the example you gave I would change the part after describe right? 09:15:39 I just tried you exact example and gave me a definition of get-universal-time 09:15:47 substitute get-universal-time with any symbol name you like 09:15:57 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.82.88.142] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:15:59 ok, thanks a lot 09:16:01 you can try to DESCRIBE any object 09:16:22 anything else that I would need? 09:16:28 try (describe (find-class 'string)) for example 09:17:37 minion: clhs apropos 09:17:38 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 09:17:44 nice 09:17:54 minion, that's not helpful. 09:17:55 yes, yes it is 09:18:07 clhs apropos 09:18:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apropo.htm 09:18:15 thanks ;) 09:18:22 clhs trace 09:18:23 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_tracec.htm 09:18:31 clhs apropos-list 09:18:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apropo.htm 09:18:37 that one is a nice touch, too 09:19:01 lletres, read this section in the spec: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/25_a.htm 09:19:02 wait what's this now? 09:19:07 k 09:19:17 those are functions you can use to get information from the REPL 09:19:36 go minion 09:20:01 I love the way that patterns of interaction on irc are so predictable that a bunch of heuristics written 5 years ago still work 09:20:19 Krystof, care to explain that inside joke about you getting angry? 09:20:38 Krystof, human culture doesn't change that much in five years. :) 09:21:53 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:26:51 ziga` [n=user@89.142.123.220] has joined #lisp 09:27:19 lpolzer: You really use vim? 09:27:31 tcr, every day. 09:27:34 -!- redblue [i=star@207.253.108.21] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 09:27:39 I mean for Lisp 09:27:49 the answer doesn't change. :) 09:28:10 Uh that's to cryptic for me in the morning 09:28:13 too even 09:28:38 tcr, I use vim for everything including lisp programming 09:29:15 Alright 09:29:54 that's what I feared, being ostracized 09:30:01 tcr, you seem to be astonished by that fact. 09:30:17 lletres, I don't think anybody will hate you for not using Emacs/Slime. 09:30:29 I did try emacs+slime 09:31:12 my grivance is that is wasn't coded in cl but ecl or something like that 09:31:13 lletres: not really ostracized, as much as being so rare case that there aren't many people with qualifications to help 09:31:25 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-228-157.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:31:33 minion: Tell lletres about Climacs. 09:31:34 lletres: please see Climacs: Climacs is an Emacs-like text editor written in Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/Climacs 09:31:48 lpolzer: I thought it was you who told recently that you're highly fond of Slime's macroexpansion facility. I'm probably just confusing you with someone else in my mind. 09:31:51 mm.. interesting 09:32:03 tcr, you probably do 09:32:13 I heard RMS browses the internet via e-mail. One can ofcourse develop Lisp applications in VIM with copy and paste.. :) 09:32:16 tcr, I just use MACROEXPAND(-1) 09:32:30 lpolzer: Hardly a comparasion. 09:32:42 ziga`, that's quite cumbersome. I hardly ever copy/paste 09:33:00 lpolzer: then it's an edit-load cycle? 09:33:21 climacs, still emacs-like, is there something vim-like coded in lisp? 09:33:27 ziga`, yes, which is not really far from whatever slime users have to type for updating their system 09:33:27 I changed to emacs just for SLIME.. 09:33:37 hehe 09:33:52 ziga`, provided you use proper shortcuts for changing windows and recalling old repl lines. 09:34:13 lletres: That would be a nice project though. Lots of people like you would use it. 09:34:19 lletres: Emacs comes with a Vi-mode, fwiw 09:34:30 ok 09:34:34 lpolzer: It's quite nice actually... I think I'll keep using emacs... 09:34:35 tcr, it's not worth much for vim users, unfortunately. :/ 09:34:57 ziga`, thanks, but I've seriously tried it and didn't like it. 09:35:32 lpolzer: do you use `plain' VIM or some Lisp oriented plugins? 09:35:46 he's hardcore 09:35:53 ziga`, all I use is a slightly modified lisp syntax file 09:36:13 ziga`, most of my customizations (rlwrap, sb-aclrepl) happen on the repl side 09:36:46 an user of sb-aclrepl! finally I've encountered one 09:37:06 kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 09:37:07 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:37:35 tcr, I wonder why there seem to be so few people using it. but I guess most people just use the slime repl? 09:37:47 or they don't know it exists? 09:37:52 or that. 09:38:11 what's sb-aclrepl?? do I need it? 09:38:21 it's a modified repl 09:38:36 it shows the current package in the prompt and has some shortcuts 09:38:53 lpolzer: sb-aclrepl without readline is still anemic :) 09:38:57 sb-aclrepl - interesting... 09:39:01 with sb-aclrepl you can just type ":de 'symbol" instead of "(describe 'symbol)" for example. 09:39:08 tcr, yes, very. 09:39:44 redblue [i=star@ppp044.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 09:40:04 perhaps clbuild should come with an sbcl bundled with rlwrap and always using sb-aclrepl 09:41:00 tcr, I would definitely endorse this. 09:42:34 sb-aclrepl is pretty nice - but still, it doesn't offer 2 REPLs simultaneous as SLIME does... I miss VIM modality in emacs, but at least for common lisp, editing with paredit in emacs is perhaps equaly comfortable. 09:42:34 I have over 400 packages under lisp category. I am installing them all 09:42:41 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:42:47 lletres: Bad idea 09:43:01 minion: tell lletres about clbuild 09:43:03 lletres: have a look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 09:47:30 -!- fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@70.16.70.118] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:49:06 joga [i=joga@83.150.90.112] has joined #lisp 09:50:30 ak70` [n=user@195.158.89.236] has joined #lisp 09:50:55 fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 09:52:04 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 09:52:33 jan247_ [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 09:52:46 -!- fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:53:44 fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 09:54:10 -!- hadronzoo [n=user@65.212.107.11] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:57:28 -!- ak70 [n=user@195.158.89.236] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:59:26 -!- gaze [n=gaze@ResNet-36-86.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [] 09:59:35 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2FD71.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:42 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2F211.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:59:45 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 09:59:49 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:59:49 -!- jan247_ is now known as jan247 10:01:12 -!- fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:01:26 chris2 [n=chris@p5B169BD6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:01:50 fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:01 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212.198.78.230] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:08:08 tcr: why bad idea? Some of them will fail to install, granted, but it's good to have pre-installed a great number of them, to have access to their sources, and be able to use them quickly there after. 10:10:05 They tend to be horrendously outdated? Usage of CLC can result in obtuse errors? 10:11:25 Ah well, that depends on the distribution. gentoo nowadays has reasonably recent cl- packages. 10:12:26 probably true thanks to fe[nl]ix 10:14:04 -!- fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:15:03 fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:26 pjb: Did you read SICM by chance? 10:17:16 Did anyone else? 10:19:08 Just the first few pages. It's on my reading list... 10:21:10 Sunday is here, where is my SBCL 1.0.32? :) 10:21:28 -!- fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:22:18 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-183-99-177.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:18 fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:18 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:23:55 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 10:27:08 -!- fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:27:41 sah0s [n=anto@10.134.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 10:28:15 fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 10:28:44 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:28:58 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:30:05 -!- kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 10:30:14 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 10:30:35 demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-207-144.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:32:04 ziga`: remember just how grumpy I was three days ago? Don't push your luck 10:32:10 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 10:32:26 (there are 13½ hours of Sunday left in my timezone) 10:32:53 GMT? 10:33:04 Krystof: I'm just kidding :) 10:33:40 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-31-117.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:33:55 Krystof: I already have a really nice SBCL which works great.. 10:34:40 -!- fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:36:59 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@88.73.208.117] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:39:27 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-183-99-177.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:40:27 fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@70.16.70.118] has joined #lisp 10:43:03 RustyWheeler [n=russell@60-241-37-219.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:46:40 s0ber [i=pie@114-45-234-18.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 10:49:35 minion, sicm? 10:49:36 sicm: Structure and Interpretation of Classical Mechanics.Dedicated to the principle of least action. 10:49:52 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 10:52:13 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-140-191-199.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:56:12 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:59:13 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B169BD6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:01:27 Does anyone know if the CLG maintainer hangs out on IRC at times? 11:01:46 what's his name? 11:01:55 His email espen@users.sf.net bounces... 11:02:44 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-84-227-56-111.adslplus.ch] has quit [] 11:02:52 Do you know his name? 11:02:57 Espen S. Johnsen 11:03:24 Ah ok I thought it might be someone else when I read "espen" 11:06:47 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-182-212.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 11:07:40 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-93193.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 11:10:34 Hmm, I wonder if the PDF version of Coders at Work is accessible (in the sense of readable with a screen reader). 11:11:14 I'd rather not scan/OCR it if I can prevent that. 11:12:37 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 11:12:50 Hi 11:13:34 delYsid: there's a kindle version, which could suggest the electronic versions use non-image characters 11:14:44 I'd like an epub version of coders at work. But I don't want to buy the book /again/. 11:15:10 but gigamonkey should be able to give you a definitive answer... he might wake up in 5-6 hours (: 11:15:58 antifuchs: cool, will ask him. 11:16:19 I dont quite want to buy the cat in the sack so to speak 11:17:50 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:18:01 sure. otoh, if it doesn't work, I guess it's fair to go hunting for a usable version from sub-legal ebook purveyors (: 11:18:13 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:18:21 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C25D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:23:10 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:23:21 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 11:25:26 I was more like thinking to ask gigamonkey for the source :-) 11:25:48 that should work, too (: 11:26:28 This at least worked for me one time, asking the author for the stuff directly when accessibility failed in his publisher trail... 11:26:32 what's a sub-legal ebook? 11:26:51 I've thinking in getting the nook :P 11:28:39 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 11:28:43 -!- drag`` [n=user@82.113.106.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:28:54 drag`` [n=user@82.113.106.86] has joined #lisp 11:31:36 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:33:53 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:36:08 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:30 Foofie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has joined #lisp 11:39:50 -!- ak70` [n=user@195.158.89.236] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:39:59 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:40:02 lukego [n=lukegorr@193.247.250.13] has joined #lisp 11:40:09 hi lukego 11:40:27 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.89.236] has joined #lisp 11:40:29 'morning slava 11:40:58 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:42:08 aha, a daylight savings event, and I'd have been completely oblivious if not for my wristwatch 11:42:41 and the feeling that I'd have quite a lot of sleep without the alarm going off. :-) 11:46:11 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:47:05 -!- RustyWheeler [n=russell@60-241-37-219.static.tpgi.com.au] has left #lisp 11:48:55 hah, lukego. reminds me I should adjust the time on my thermostat 11:50:56 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-123-9.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:55:31 qidush [n=qidush@c83-252-27-42.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:57:49 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:58:53 luis: Could it be that you replied to me only and forgot to CC the list? 11:59:13 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-61-208.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:02:41 manuel__ [n=manuel@pD9E6EE61.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:37 there is no real way for making a method private right?, just use the documentation string i suppose? 12:07:29 <_3b> don't export it, or give it a name like %foo to suggest it isn't intended for general use 12:07:44 Perhaps if you don't provide an accessor you make it 'lispy-private' 12:08:52 <_3b> (or you could do silly things like naming it with a gensym, or possibly mop tricks to avoid naming it at all) 12:08:53 don't export it 12:09:10 i don't think going out of your way to hide it gains you much 12:09:13 ziga` do you place many methods in slots, i considered that before but thought there was no real benefit, did i miss something? 12:09:34 xristos i was more for my own benefit so i don't forget 12:09:40 s/i/it 12:10:26 <_3b> or even better, walk the stack and throw an error if you see any functions you object to :p 12:11:31 Younder [n=jthing@84.202.157.22] has joined #lisp 12:11:53 Guthur: my mistake I was thinking of slots not methods. 12:12:05 lol the solutions get more extreme, as it ended up i actually don't want to make the method private now, my class hierarchy is getting bigger and its hard to remember everything, might need to start making better doc strings 12:13:05 ziga' no probs, 12:14:08 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@93-82-12-97.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:14:12 i kind of confirms i was i right not to bother putting methods in slots, for brief time i had thought it might avoid a generic call, but then i realised how wrong that was hhh 12:14:18 s/i/it 12:14:35 What does it mean to put a method in a slot? 12:15:39 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-182-212.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:15:44 beach not much i don't think, though i do store lambdas in one 12:15:53 oops thats functions 12:16:18 Guthur: But you said it "... not to bother putting methods in slots". 12:16:19 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:16:28 ya i was thinking of functions the whole time, sorry 12:16:30 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 12:16:33 Guthur: Ah. 12:16:43 Guthur: It is generally better to use generic functions. 12:17:25 in 1991 one when P. Norvig wrote PAIP he says avoid them if possible 12:17:30 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@167.206.154.26] has quit ["leaving"] 12:17:38 Things have changed. 12:18:34 beach ya i had to embrace CLOS for my widgets, to do it functionally would be painful 12:19:10 what kind of widgets Guthur 12:19:10 what kind of widgets 12:19:13 LOL 12:19:19 OpenGL? 12:19:30 SDL, only some basic ones 12:19:42 interesting Guthur 12:19:53 Guthur: yet again, CLOS doesn't go against functional programming 12:20:05 buttons, containers, grabbable, images, and animated sprites, labels, textboxs 12:20:06 you can still use CLOS and program functionally 12:20:19 the last two i am finishing off now 12:20:50 Guthur: is this some commercial project or do you intend to release your widget code - I would be interested in it? 12:21:10 do you use sdl-ttf for text ? 12:21:13 bodasx [n=bodia@95.109.165.212] has joined #lisp 12:21:14 ziga' for uni, its not very robust at the mo 12:21:30 xristos just the built in fonts at the moment 12:22:00 i wrote a binding to freetype i'm about to release 12:22:06 ziga' couple of wee bugs, but intend to keep using it so if it if gets to a nice state I will probably put it up somewhere 12:22:18 and i have some osx specific code to do text aswell 12:22:29 I have a working button widget with cl-opengl and cl-glfw LOL, it seems everybody is writing his own widgets in CL 12:22:37 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 12:23:06 ziga' hhh, it has been a great way for me to develop my lispy chops 12:23:09 Guthur: great, would like to see the code, since I'm not very sure how to implement a GUI in commonlisp 12:23:30 minion: tell ziga` about CLIM 12:23:31 ziga`: have a look at CLIM: The Common Lisp Interface Manager (CLIM) is a powerful Lisp-based programming interface that provides a layered set of portable facilities for constructing user interfaces. http://www.cliki.net/CLIM 12:23:36 minion: tell ziga` about McCLIM. 12:23:38 ziga`: please see McCLIM: McCLIM is Mike McDonald's Free and portable implementation of CLIM, the Common Lisp ueber-Graphics Toolkit and a Common Lisp Library. http://www.cliki.net/McCLIM 12:23:51 ziga`: There, that's who to implement a GUI in Common Lisp. 12:24:01 I've seen McCLIM, but it's useless to me :) 12:24:18 it's gigantic and runs on X 12:24:25 ziga`: not true. 12:24:35 ziga`: CLIM can have sevaral backends. 12:24:47 .. but it currently only runs on X 12:24:56 beach: you mean I should reimplement CLIM api in OpenGL? 12:24:57 ziga`: That is partly why it is good! It has a stratified design. 12:25:13 gl is not the best choice for 2d graphics 12:25:29 ziga`: The fastest would be to implement an OpenGL backend for McCLIM. 12:25:44 ziga`: But it's OK. I can tell you have already made up your mind. 12:25:47 slava: sure it is, takes rasterization off the CPU.. and it's fairly crossplatform.. 12:25:59 ziga`: I speak from experience 12:26:05 what's the best way to do cross platform 2d graphics 12:26:21 write an abstraction layer with backends for cairo, core graphics and gdi+ 12:26:23 don't say sdl using software blitters 12:26:25 I have to go.. hope you're still here when I'm back 12:26:29 -!- bodasx [n=bodia@95.109.165.212] has left #lisp 12:26:38 cairo is dog slow 12:26:47 xristos i was going to say SDL hhh 12:26:52 the problem is that opengl on linux is dreadfully buggy 12:26:57 and if you want to use gl as a backend to accellerate it it's messy because glitz is a pile of crap 12:27:21 McClim looks good though, i'm building a game though and felt it didn't really fit that requirement 12:27:31 also gl is pretty low level for the things you want in a gui 12:27:39 for example, it doesn't address text rendering at all 12:27:47 Guthur: Why are you not in #lispgames ? (: 12:27:50 slava: sure but you can get up to speed relatively quickly 12:28:12 i agree on the text bit as i had to do what you did with freetype & caching etc 12:28:16 Guthur: Possibly, though with the stratified architecture, I find that I can reuse bits and pieces, and implement my own little parts that will fit right in, thanks to the numerous protocols that exist. 12:28:17 schme i didn't even know there was such a channel 12:28:24 Guthur: (: 12:28:24 but at least it's fast 12:28:35 schme but to be fair i am here for lisp not games 12:28:40 xristos: freetype is problematic; I used it at first and then switched to platform-specific text backends to use unicode etc 12:28:45 xristos: definitely a huge amount of work 12:28:57 slava: i took your coretext code and rewrote it in cl 12:29:02 xristos: nice 12:29:04 Guthur: Sounds reasonable. What sort of game are you building? 12:29:10 but i want crossplatform text and freetype it is for now 12:29:22 xristos: you could also take the uniscribe and pango code 12:29:30 that would make a nice library 12:29:36 Guthur: I wrote a mcclim backgammon client. But I dunno for things outside classic boardgames.. maybe even roguelikes. Other than that I dunno if clim is the best choice :) 12:29:53 schme simple economic game, MULE. Its for an AI project, i need to get the game ready for next week actually so i can start on the AI 12:30:04 xristos: one problem with this approach is that text textures are not shared between apps 12:30:16 Guthur: cools! 12:30:20 xristos: when using native 2d apis you typically end up with less overhead 12:30:39 it's true but it depends on your requirements 12:30:50 i don't really do complicated text layout 12:31:00 so pango is more work than worth it 12:31:00 what's the application? 12:31:13 pango's api is similar to core text 12:31:14 a repl for livecoding 12:31:17 If slava says opengl would be.. not so great as a mcclim backend I'll believe it. :) 12:31:29 I'd hate seeing mcclim + opengl + xmonad :D 12:31:32 well, ymmv 12:31:43 other than gl being low-level, the only real problem is the linux implementations 12:31:56 i want a 2D physic engine for lisp next hhh 12:32:34 they are all C++ though by the looks of it, no C 12:32:43 Guthur: You could FFI to C++ ? 12:32:57 schme: that's almost impossible without writing a C wraper around the library 12:33:01 or generating a C wrapper 12:33:06 schme i thought C was the prefered 12:33:11 like slava said 12:33:14 slava: okra seems to do it? 12:33:17 there's no C++ ABI 12:33:45 Granted I have no idea how okra does do it, but it seems to do it :) 12:33:48 schme: it generates C code 12:33:53 near the end of the year i might look at wrapping Box2D, its a nice API, and it would be good experience 12:33:58 schme: C++ has too much compile time stuff 12:34:00 schme: like templates 12:34:22 aha. 12:34:32 Well wrapping it is. 12:34:37 Or just write a new engine in lisp ;) 12:34:41 yeah 12:35:00 Guthur: You will be muched love either way :) 12:36:13 schme, if i could work it into my uni course i would, but i don't think i can 12:36:40 the new engine that is 12:37:58 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [] 12:39:43 b3nt_pin [n=brent@stjhnf0140w-142162064055.pppoe-dynamic.nl.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 12:40:34 tomoyuki28jp` [n=tomoyuki@r011042.203112.miinet.jp] has joined #lisp 12:41:35 :( 12:41:40 quit uni. more lisp ;) 12:43:13 fatalnix2995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:21 I am trying to make all-in-one package of my project which bundles all the external depending libraries. To load the bundled libraries without asdf, I gotta arrange the orders to load the libraries according to the dependencies, correct? (There are lots of libraries, so if this is true, I thought using asdf makes it much easier.) 12:45:21 why don't you use asdf 12:45:23 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:45:55 -!- fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@70.16.70.118] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:46:20 xristos: Some non-lispers claimed to me that it's hard to install because of the hell of dependency installations. 12:46:27 tomoyuki28jp`: why not ship a copy of asdf? 12:46:44 also, why not ship an image file? 12:46:54 tomoyuki28jp`: you can ship the libraries with your product and use asdf to load them 12:47:08 taking advice from non-lispers ): 12:47:09 xristos: yeah, that's what I am trying to do. 12:47:32 sbcl comes with asdf, right? 12:47:37 tomoyuki28jp`: you are aware that you can dump an executable image, right? 12:47:51 Adlai: I don't think so. 12:47:53 tomoyuki28jp`: sure 12:48:14 ie, if it's an appropriate distribution method for your app, you can just distribute one binary 12:48:33 Adlai: That's not portable, right? 12:48:56 So using asdf is the easiest way. 12:49:28 tomoyuki28jp`: true, you'd have to distribute separate binaries for each platform 12:50:02 schme hhh uni is giving me the opportunity to do lisp, if i was in a job it would be unlikely that i would have the opportunity 12:50:10 Adlai: I see. thanks for the info. 12:50:25 tomoyuki28jp`: all you need to do is modify asdf:*central-registry* to contain the directories of your libraries 12:50:42 Guthur: You will have to sneak it into your future workplace :) 12:50:51 xristos: I understand. thanks. 12:51:43 i don't know how asdf works with arbitrary library locations, so you might also have a single configuration parameter pointing to the directory where your product is 'installed' 12:51:50 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:51:52 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:51:59 so the user needs to fill only this in, and then everything works 12:52:10 xristos: I know the way to add a new load path of asdf, but how can I give the new path priority? 12:52:37 make sure it's near the front of the list? 12:52:52 Adlai: That's what I thought. 12:52:53 schme the preferred way seems to be: start a company, use lisp, talk about competitive advantage, sellout to a big company, and let them reimplement it all in C or java or whatever, hhh 12:53:03 Thanks a lot for your help, guys. I appreciate it. 12:53:07 tomoyuki28jp`: you don't have to resolve the order of dependencies yourself 12:53:16 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633767.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:53:18 just make sure every library can be found by asdf 12:53:38 xristos: oh really? But what's gonna happen if two different versions of the same software are installed? 12:53:59 That's why I want give my depending libraries priority. 12:54:05 only joking really, lisp is pretty sweet, i do like it as a tool for making software 12:54:11 tomoyuki28jp`: nothing 12:54:16 they both work 12:54:17 Guthur: I guess. It's all about making a buck. So whatever works :) 12:55:28 what kind of gc does CL:GC perform in sbcl? 12:59:17 is it just a collection of the youngest generation? 12:59:29 oh I see 13:00:08 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 13:00:25 -!- tomoyuki28jp` [n=tomoyuki@r011042.203112.miinet.jp] has left #lisp 13:03:31 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:10:18 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.202.157] has joined #lisp 13:10:30 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 13:12:10 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 13:12:25 Axius [n=ojof@92.82.95.29] has joined #lisp 13:12:56 chris2 [n=chris@p5B169BD6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:13:22 What libraries/application make good use of restarts? 13:13:38 Likely candidates are probably web frameworks and unit test frameworks 13:16:27 jahmarley [n=jahmarle@88.238.215.244] has joined #lisp 13:16:28 *_3b* likes restarts for working on running cl-opengl apps 13:17:19 _3b: Have you followed the restart numbering on slime-devel? 13:17:22 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219.89.105.20] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:17:40 <_3b> yeah, no idea which way i'll like better until i use it 13:18:15 Well aren't you annoyed that you have to look very careful at the restart list? 13:18:21 carefully 13:18:28 <_3b> i'd probably have to look either way 13:18:55 <_3b> since i'd want one of the close-to-error restarts usually 13:19:01 The static numbering makes sense for generally available restarts 13:19:16 <_3b> right, just not sure those would be the ones i'd want often 13:19:29 <_3b> like i pretty much never want the 'kill the thread' restart :) 13:19:50 *_3b* might even vote for not giving that a number in either order 13:20:29 slava: a note from before - I've got text rendering covered with cl-ftgl in openGL, it works with unicode and all. Ofourse antialiasing is done by freetype, so it's not Mac rendering on mac and Cleartype on Windows.. but it works 13:20:30 Well with the new scheme you know that terminate-thread will _always_ be 0 13:20:40 so just never press 0 :) 13:21:49 ziga`: ftgl is slower than using freetype directly and doesn't do lcd rendering 13:22:06 and you have yet-another-dependency ;p 13:22:19 xristos: sure it is, but I don't have to write wrappers 13:22:20 <_3b> seems like most of the time i'd want the default C or R restart (forget which name i used), and if not, i'm going to be working my way out from there trying each in turn until it stops running the broken code i just recompiled :) 13:22:38 <_3b> so i'd have to read the list either way 13:22:43 i'm trying to install the cmu-xlib-and-gl debian package but when i try to reach it from cmucl it drops to debugger saying there is no system like this 13:23:25 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:23:26 xristos: perhaps freetype directly is best, but I would have to write a lot of code to get renderings into gl textures and freetype lcd rendering is a bit shabby compared to mac and cleartype anyways 13:23:34 ziga`: you could use my freetype library 13:23:37 _3b: RETRY restart does not have a default binding; the new behaviour will give it one implicitly though 13:23:44 xristos: link? 13:23:49 when i release it that is which should be any day now 13:23:56 :) 13:24:11 xristos: what does it do? renders into arrays or more? 13:24:22 <_3b> tcr: probably continue then, i've swapped cl-opengl stuff out of my brain for the moment :) 13:24:33 Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has joined #lisp 13:24:45 ziga`: it's a binding to freetype with a lispy interface that does kerning/lcd/greyscale/mono rendering 13:24:54 *_3b* votes for just rasterizing the fonts in a shader 13:25:02 i'll also release code to use it with gl 13:25:35 reprore_ [n=reprore@116.82.73.92] has joined #lisp 13:25:36 xristos: so it's a nice interface to freetype... but what would one use to display 2D graphics crossplatform 13:25:53 anything you like 13:26:05 <_3b> hmm, wonder how well it would work to do the lcd subpixel stuff in a shader 13:26:06 if sdl works for you go for it 13:26:11 xristos: I don't feel like writing GDI wrappers and such 13:26:27 i use glut 13:26:36 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-70-58.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:26:41 xristos: sdl is kinda slow, I feel, besides I would like to use opengl in my app (for 3d plots) 13:27:17 You can reach into opengl from SDL 13:27:18 you can use gl with glut, you can use gl with sdl, you can use gl with glfw or with platform specific bindings that get you a gl context+window 13:27:23 xristos: I use glfw, for unicode input - but I still miss one thing - cooperation with OS' clipboard.. what would be the best way to go about it? 13:27:47 platform specific bindings ? 13:27:53 glut doesn't have that either 13:28:44 -!- jahmarley [n=jahmarle@88.238.215.244] has left #lisp 13:28:44 I even thought about writing CFFI bindings for each platform to get a gl window, input and clipboard, but I imagine it's hard and it's better done in C - i.e. modify GLFW to meet my needs.. what do you think? 13:29:12 i think it's more boring than hard, but someone has to do it 13:29:18 slava did it 13:29:25 It would be great to have a 'glutlike' CL library, not in C 13:29:44 glut is more like a prototype thing than a solution 13:29:49 xristos: any code available ? :D 13:30:16 you can check factor code or see tutorials online 13:30:41 factor like factor programming language? 13:30:44 is there anyone here who understands that run-program input inheritance thing that got merged earlier this month (by jsnell?) 13:30:49 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:30:52 ziga`: yes 13:31:02 egoz [n=Egoz@125.163.2.58] has joined #lisp 13:31:38 I see - factor has it's crossplatform gui api 13:31:55 but it's written in factor I guess, not CL? :) 13:31:58 factor is essentially opengl with platform specific code to open a window and get a gl context 13:32:38 interesting 13:33:27 so now one has to write factor->CL converter and we're good 13:35:04 -!- demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-207-144.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:35:41 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:23 also a note on SDL + opengl: it's what I originally used for GL windows, but I found out that resizing a window destroys an opengl context, so it's no good for resizable apps - it's a SDL thing - it's mean for games where the window size changes are predefined 13:36:38 GLFW however resizes without problems as does GLUT 13:36:59 <_3b> ziga`: i think that is more a portability thing than a game thing 13:37:07 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@116.82.73.92] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:37:19 _3b: glut is more portable and doesn't have the problem 13:38:00 _3b: it's probably SDL 1.2 design, which is not so focused around opengl 13:38:10 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:38:21 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-73-155.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:30 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:05 ziga` from the first google result i get, it suggests the context is only lost on windows 13:39:08 <_3b> hmm, seems like there was some case where you couldn't reuse the context reliably, can't remember what though 13:39:24 <_3b> yeah, probably windows, they like to make GL annoying :/ 13:39:36 vista and win7 solve a lot of these problems 13:39:43 oh and the same post pages says 1.3 solved the problem 13:40:10 one major issue with SDL is that it only supports one window at a time 13:40:18 slava: where in factor source is code to wrap this functionality (window/events/context) 13:40:27 1.3 is a substancial rewrite but I wonder when is it coming out - also it's probably going to need new CFFI bindings, right? 13:40:45 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:40:47 slava: you could use something to host the sdl apps though, right? 13:41:00 xristos: basis/ui/backend/ 13:41:01 app in an spp 13:41:05 spp/app 13:41:21 slava: any advice on writing a wrapper for opening windows and events in CFFI? 13:41:42 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:41:43 not sure on that actually 13:42:49 thats that i like about factor, everything is nicely abstracted and the code is quite easy to port ;p 13:43:16 ziga`you could always ask the lispbuilder guys to update to it, the interface might not change that much, i'm not that knowledgeable on SDL though 13:43:43 Patzy [n=somethin@88.174.11.170] has joined #lisp 13:43:47 <_3b> if you mean for 1.3, he said he would update once there is a stable 1.3 release 13:44:29 _3b cool they are doing good work there, i'm pretty please with the SDL as i have mention a few times now hhh 13:45:33 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.72.35] has joined #lisp 13:46:09 does SDL have any clipboard support? 13:46:10 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@193.247.250.13] has quit [] 13:46:40 ziga`: nope 13:46:44 with clipboard it seems one can not avoid writing separate wrappers 13:46:45 :) 13:47:03 and you need it in every 'app' 13:48:12 sayyestolife [n=jot_n@79.136.60.147] has joined #lisp 13:49:04 <_3b> looks like sdl 1.3 might get clipboard stuff 13:49:17 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 13:49:24 factor supports all popular text editors :))) (I'm watching the screencast) 13:49:58 -!- sayyestolife [n=jot_n@79.136.60.147] has quit [Client Quit] 13:50:06 SDL1.3 looks much better than 1.2 13:50:11 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-70-58.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:50:20 EinarDog1in [n=plyryan@pool-71-113-49-75.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:29 lichtblau [n=user@92.195.70.58] has joined #lisp 13:50:31 <_3b> yeah, seems it will have some nice stuff 13:51:20 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.82.95.29] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:51:39 -!- EinarDogfin [n=plyryan@pool-71-113-49-75.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:53:19 h3 [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:26 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:53:52 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:54:03 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:58:19 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-30-156.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:06 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 14:05:39 -!- h3 [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:06:47 this is a noob question: but how come this doesn't work - http://paste.lisp.org/display/89242 14:07:38 because your keys don't compare equal under the default test predicate for hash tables 14:07:54 krystof ah no problem 14:07:56 alternative answer: it works exactly as it should. You mean "how come my expectations are wrong?" 14:08:16 i forgot about the eq eql equal thing 14:08:34 cheers 14:08:41 <_3b> Krystof: is there a 'should' in that case? 14:08:53 *_3b* doesn't remember if the reader is required to make new strings every time 14:09:02 quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has joined #lisp 14:10:19 implementation detail :) 14:10:21 ya most languages look at that as constant, my lisp-fu will develop hopefully to so i can realise the world is not always as it seems in lisp 14:11:07 _3b: I think it is. (setf (char (read) 0) #\a) is, as far as I know, legal code, and shouldn't clobber stuff elsewhere 14:11:50 _3b: it's true that the file compiler would be allowed to coalesce stuff like those forms, but then I think we've spent enough time on this 14:12:23 <_3b> yep, back to working for me :) 14:12:29 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 14:13:34 there was a nice wee table somewhere comparing eq eql equal equalp, wish i could remember where 14:13:55 I have a non-completely-deterministic error in SBCL. posix-environ seems to add a crap entry at the end of the environment and then die trying to UTF-8-decode it. 14:14:15 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 14:14:31 *_3b* had problems with garbage env one day too 14:14:42 when I force latin1 encoding and run-program env, I see "" at the end of the environment 14:15:43 maybe a integer size issue when checking for the ending 0 / NULL to delimit the environment? 14:16:09 *Fare* goes to launchpad... 14:16:53 I love launchpad 14:17:07 it makes it so easy to ignore bug reports entirely 14:18:17 should I post a notice on sbcl-devel, too? 14:18:35 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-54-168.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:18 I don't know. You should follow the instructions for reporting bugs 14:24:20 whatever they are 14:24:44 probably documented in BUGS 14:27:49 SBCL uses Launchpad to track bugs. The bug database is available at: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl 14:28:55 there you go then 14:29:11 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:29:48 TDT [n=dthole@254.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:06 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1263.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:30:10 g'morning all. 14:30:39 TR2N [i=email@89-180-193-206.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 14:32:01 https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/460455 14:32:43 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:33:17 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 14:33:32 morning? 14:33:42 9:30 am here :) 14:33:45 hehe 14:33:56 15:33 here 14:34:01 timewarp 14:34:07 heh 14:35:47 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.165.8] has joined #lisp 14:36:54 Huh. I was about to complain again about launchpad's extremely lame functionality (as opposed to slickness), but it seems that if I do a day's work or so I might actually be able to get it to tell me stuff approximately like I want to know, losing only useful threading in discussions 14:36:56 I will have to investigate 14:37:53 colin_ [n=colin@118-160-195-162.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:03 tomyl [n=user@83.250.123.20] has joined #lisp 14:38:38 colin__ [n=colin@118-160-195-162.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:58 -!- colin_ [n=colin@118-160-195-162.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:39:07 -!- colin__ [n=colin@118-160-195-162.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:39:07 so how's SBCL coming along? 14:39:24 colin_ [n=colin@118-160-195-162.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:26 been coming along for 10 years! 14:39:33 doing good, I suppose 14:39:35 esp. on Windows 14:39:40 -!- cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit ["server reboot"] 14:39:51 <_3b> still waiting for you to improve it :) 14:39:56 LOL 14:40:15 AFAIK the problem is allocating enough memory on WIndows, right? 14:40:22 <_3b> 'the' ? 14:40:31 :) 14:40:31 <_3b> there are lots of problems on windows 14:40:32 no 14:40:59 <_3b> allocating a contiguous block of memory at a predetermined address is one though, if i understand correctly 14:41:02 the problem regarding memory is that because sbcl core file formats contain non-PIC code, the address space that sbcl expects must be clear 14:41:37 too advanced to understand :) I'll leave it to smart people to work on it :) 14:42:00 unfortunately, on Windows, it's relatively easy for some other process to require a DLL that gets mapped at an inconvenient place in the address space, and as I understand it the windows linker prefers to place dlls at the same place in all processes 14:42:01 krystof was that what the discussion regarding paging was about 14:42:04 no 14:42:26 ziga`: Or, you can use a different OS. 14:42:34 and the sbcl release is currently stalled on a failing test case, which I've asked clarification about on the mailing list 14:43:30 which is why I'm looking at launchpad instead 14:43:40 beach: I do, but I would like my apps to run on Windows too.. Clozure CL should provide that, but AFAIK SBCL beats it hands down for floating poin performance and such 14:44:24 under Windows, you can use VirtualBox, colinux, etc... 14:44:58 -!- drag`` [n=user@82.113.106.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:45:12 drag`` [n=user@82.113.106.86] has joined #lisp 14:45:43 Fare: depends on what kind of app you're doing - I'm thinking of writing a Maxima GUI and don't expect the end user to run virtualbox for such an app... 14:45:51 (as I understand it, sbcl mostly runs on windows, and has done for years; just use it already and stop complaining) 14:46:43 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.165.8] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:46:53 The only gripe I have with launchpad is that it is not at all clear where discussion should take place 14:47:00 I use it all the time ;) 14:47:11 Clearly, using sbcl-devel is much more convenient 14:47:18 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.165.8] has joined #lisp 14:49:00 I don't mean to complain, I understand what's the situation with OSS. It's great that any work gets done. 14:50:10 that's the wrong attitude altogether. OSS is great because you can work on it. 14:50:20 ziga: nyef may have a page with a list of TODO items for the windows port 14:50:36 (if you have time to help) 14:50:49 that said, some people reportedly use SBCL/Windows in "production". 14:51:02 Fare: I'm underequipped mentaly. Otherwise I would consider it.. 14:51:03 just because it's not 100% complete doesn't mean it's unusable. 14:51:14 ziga`, don't underestimate yourself 14:52:06 -!- Elench is now known as LandLubber 14:53:37 I'm a lisp newbie and don't have any experience with compiler writing, I'm not a CS student so address space is a pretty abstract term for me... If I would have a job which would benefit from SBCL improvements, I would consider looking into it.. but right now I should be writing my physics diploma but I'm rather toying around with CL and emacs... 14:54:17 :) 14:54:19 you should be posting on comp.lang.lisp, then 14:54:27 heh! 14:54:55 ziga`, don't underestimate yourself 14:55:11 it's a LOT of work to get into it, but you can do it 14:55:22 the only question is -- are you going to enjoy it? 14:55:48 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-230.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:56:39 Fare: To be fair, it's also a question of priorities. 14:57:09 I'm fairly certain I dived in while still in dental school. 14:57:14 it's too much of an investement for me, I think I'll stick to just using CL 14:57:33 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:57:51 CL is fun, writing compilers not so much (from my current perspective) 14:58:22 baiting those who do on IRC: priceless 14:58:29 :) 14:58:56 ok, here are some people with fewer excuses. pkhuong, does run-program.impure.lisp in CVS HEAD pass for you? 14:59:25 no, I have great admiration for SBCL developers and other lisp hackers 14:59:56 Krystof: I'll try on a couple platforms. 15:00:08 thanks 15:02:24 works for me on linux-x86/32 15:02:35 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-16-216.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:03:23 that's in many ways a shame 15:04:34 what's a shame? that the test should pass? 15:05:26 yes, because I can't see how it can possibly pass 15:06:10 egoz_ [n=Egoz@125.163.30.159] has joined #lisp 15:06:53 or, if it passes for everyone but me, what is different about my system 15:07:20 -!- egoz [n=Egoz@125.163.2.58] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:07:28 -!- egoz_ is now known as egoz 15:12:03 great, after-xc-core fails again on darwin. 15:12:37 shaping up to be a great release, this 15:13:11 sbcl release? 15:13:11 I bet this only fails on uniprocessors, and I am the only person in the universe left doing development on a uniprocessor machine 15:14:32 which version is this one 'great release'? 15:15:03 I got 1.0.31 15:15:09 Krystof: not quite 15:15:24 Krystof, what system are you using? 15:15:52 Krystof, using processor affinity flags, people could test your hypothesis on their multicore boxes 15:16:39 tomoyuki28jp` [n=tomoyuki@y225198.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 15:17:14 find + exec is the easiest way to link all the asd files and a certain directories? 15:17:36 s/and/under/ 15:18:15 <_3b> am i missing something about this: (compile nil '(lambda () (funcall (block x (lambda (a) (return-from x 100) 10)) 1))) ? sbcl complains about types for the 100 15:18:48 <_3b> (no, the code isn't supposed to make sense) 15:18:48 Fare: it is not a serious hypothesis 15:20:02 _3b: (block x ...) is must evaluate to something that's funcallable, thus the argument to (return-from x ...) must also. 15:20:19 <_3b> pkhuong: ah, that makes sense 15:20:33 or run an virtual machine with configured with one proc 15:20:39 tomoyuki28jp`: also ln -s $source/*/*{,/*,/*/*}.asd $target , for example 15:21:07 fe[nl]ix: thanks! 15:21:43 lletres: at this point, having something with a clue think hard seems like a better option. 15:22:25 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:22:56 Krystof: inherit stdin fails on darwin 15:24:13 how do I run just that run-program test from the command-line? 15:25:17 Fare: sh run-tests.sh run-program.impure.lisp 15:26:50 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:27:34 demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-207-144.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:15 and timeouts seem to fail on fbsd :\ 15:29:09 pkhuong: if you change the ecase in the inherit stdin test to case, does it pass? 15:29:46 yup. 15:29:57 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:30:06 well, at least it's not just me 15:30:09 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 15:30:21 works on linux/x86-64, though. Might be some posix underspecification. 15:30:42 (it fails for me on x86-linux-single-proc, passes on x86-64-linux-multiproc 15:31:15 -!- b3nt_pin [n=brent@stjhnf0140w-142162064055.pppoe-dynamic.nl.aliant.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:31:37 well, there goes my plan of doing actual work today 15:31:52 I could try setting the affinity. My real *nix boxes are 4 and 8 way. 15:33:35 absent anyone with a clue actually replying to me, flailing around and guessing sounds good to me 15:33:49 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp044.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:34:12 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 15:34:33 the version with case works for me with HEAD and fails for me in an older SBCL, so maybe that's the way forward; this is what makes me suspect race conditions rather than anything else 15:34:35 /apparent success (reached end of run-tests.sh normally) 15:34:57 (using 1.0.31.32 on linux/amd64) 15:35:51 (dual core box) 15:37:05 oh, I get it 15:37:14 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 15:37:17 what is it? 15:37:44 it is a race condition. if you get to process-close in the test before the sigchld is delivered, then the process is no longer on active-processes when the sbcl sigchld handler runs 15:38:17 ignotus [n=ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 15:38:22 which means that in that case the status hook isn't called, which means that you don't get the error from ECASE 15:39:33 hi, I would like to have some examples of cffi using FILE* objects, do you know a project like this? I have a C library (discount) that outputs the result into a FILE*, how could I extract the string from that... 15:41:01 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-193-206.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 15:41:33 Pete_R [n=quassel@78.96.132.194] has joined #lisp 15:42:12 ignotus: you'd wrap f{read,write}(3) in CFFI. 15:42:13 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit ["Backups are usually a good thing unless it's a sewer."] 15:42:44 Krystof, yay for guru meditation! 15:42:45 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 15:43:02 pkhuong: hmm, and how do I know the size to read? 15:43:03 Hello people! can someone point me a good tutorial on implementing in Lisp the Ait-Kaci feature structure unification algorithm please? 15:43:07 I'd have said that you feed your library the return value from fmemopen() 15:43:23 ignotus: I've had success with CFFI.. just use :pointer type for FILE* 15:43:25 -!- demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-207-144.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:43:40 ignotus, fflush it, and extract from the fd 15:43:43 Krystof: well, the spec is ambiguous (: 15:43:52 alternatively, give your library a FILE* to a known pathname, and read in that pathname's contents 15:44:10 hehe, okay thanks guys, good ideas 15:44:35 I will try fmemopen'ing an mmaped region first, I like that 15:45:16 -!- fatalnix2995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:45:43 are there any CFFI bindings to windows.h for opening a Windows window? 15:45:50 already written? 15:46:56 Harag [n=phil@41.208.198.23] has joined #lisp 15:47:44 I am trying to figure out how to exclude certain slots when persisting the dao (postmodern) instance to the db short of making a new object with the limited range of slots. Any body got any idees? 15:47:45 ok I found lispbuilder-windows.. 15:48:38 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-73-155.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:48:58 Krystof: well, there seems to be some regressions on fbsd, but run-program works on fbsd/x86-64. 15:49:14 *Krystof* defines fbsd as a niche platform 15:49:20 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 15:49:58 HET2 [n=diman@80.3.31.126] has joined #lisp 15:50:46 fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:56 lletres_ [n=nieve@pool-96-246-66-100.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:37 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-59-8.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:56:26 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:00:13 fatalnix2995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:27 -!- tomoyuki28jp` [n=tomoyuki@y225198.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:01:42 -!- fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:01:51 cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 16:02:47 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 16:03:47 -!- lletres [n=nieve@pool-96-246-68-222.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:05:11 -!- prip [n=_prip@host61-121-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:05:56 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has joined #lisp 16:07:10 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:38 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B169BD6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:08:40 Axius [n=ojof@92.85.27.68] has joined #lisp 16:10:21 milanj [n=milan@93.86.21.109] has joined #lisp 16:14:57 -!- egoz [n=Egoz@125.163.30.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:15:18 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:17:12 benny [n=benny@i577A1BE0.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:18:07 -!- Krystof changed the topic of #lisp to: Topic for #lisp is: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.0.32, trivial-features 0.6, CMUCL 20a 16:20:04 congrats for SBCL 1.0.32 ! 16:20:16 wee 16:21:03 congrats Krystof! 16:21:17 downloading & compiling now 16:21:19 hehe 16:21:40 where's the changelog? 16:22:07 I want to read it 16:22:28 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-123-9.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:23:39 one way of getting the changelog is going to your cvs checkout of sbcl, as of say yesterday, and looking at the top of the NEWS file 16:23:54 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-123-9.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:24:05 another is to use sourceforge's file interface to look at the release notes file that I have uploaded 16:24:19 another is to subscribe to sbcl-announce, where I have sent a message with the changelog for this release appended 16:24:30 but maybe you would like me to put the changelog on a spoon and feed it to you? 16:25:00 yes :) 16:25:38 *lletres_* checks sourceforge 16:26:07 a link on the topic would be nice 16:27:27 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 16:28:25 swathanthran [n=user@117.204.82.199] has joined #lisp 16:29:36 lletres_: I don't think it would 16:29:54 compilation failed :( 16:30:12 x86-64-arch.c: In function 'context_eflags_addr': 16:30:13 x86-64-arch.c:67: error: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type 16:30:13 make: *** [x86-64-arch.o] Error 1 16:30:16 16:30:22 on darwin with threads 16:30:30 I am utterly uninterested 16:30:47 if you couldn't be bothered to test before the release on your niche platform, you don't get any support from me 16:30:50 fix it yourself 16:31:01 :) 16:31:41 mm.. only 4 changes oO 16:31:48 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:32:21 is there a farm of automatic testing machines for sbcl? 16:32:27 yes, but it doesn't work 16:32:40 I believe it is run by an ITA employee, but probably in his spare time 16:33:08 robsynnott [n=robertsy@89.100.143.184] has joined #lisp 16:33:12 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:33:12 or maybe it's been transferred out: http://feelingofgreen.ru/sbcl/index.html 16:33:15 Martin Cracauer? 16:33:56 no, james knight 16:35:17 I run the build master, but the slave base has been shrinking and shrinking.. 16:35:52 To the point, now, where the only connected slave is my mips machine. 16:36:44 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.246.128] has joined #lisp 16:36:53 Sadly, there's no list for the buildbot. 16:37:17 deepfire: I can add linux/x86-32/64 slaves, but I don't suppose it's very useful... 16:37:23 yes, yes it would be 16:37:44 particularly if test failures were announced in a prominent way 16:37:49 (or build failures) 16:37:55 ok, I'll add them. 16:38:01 sending mail to myself... 16:38:30 *deepfire* looks into what's needed from his side 16:38:37 deepfire, can you send me instructions on what I need to do to add slaves? 16:39:40 for example, who knew that the build on mips is broken? 16:39:45 deepfire, presumably, but not me 16:40:04 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:40:36 Krystof, the web interface was there for a long time.. 16:40:44 Joreji [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:41:31 http://sbcl.static.net/ => "Buildbot waterfall", but I realise that notifications would be more interesting 16:41:45 the web interface is useless, because it requires people to remember that it exists, and check on the off-chance that there is new information there 16:42:18 (not quite useless, but impractical in today's time-starved economy) 16:42:30 Ok, I see.. 16:43:08 Now, I must admit that I mostly only provided hosting on my machine, and foom did the control thing. I only re/started the thing a couple of times. 16:43:54 I just realised that foom ran several buildslaves off localhost (feelingofgreen.ru) itself. 16:44:26 I'm not sure if I'd like it that way though.. 16:45:32 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.39] has joined #lisp 16:45:40 -!- fatalnix2995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:45:49 Krystof, if the mail notification was to be provided, would you like a notification for every build failure, or just for state changes since last build attempt? 16:47:07 *deepfire* pretty sure he messed up tenses in that sentence.. 16:47:38 state changes, I think 16:47:50 an rss feed of everything to planet.sbcl would also be useful 16:49:32 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.135.85] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:50:05 wierd 1.0.32 fails but 1.0.31 compiles 16:50:11 -!- swathanthran [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:50:18 not that it matters 16:51:47 jfm3 [n=user@c-98-221-112-35.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:58 -!- colin_ [n=colin@118-160-195-162.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:52:03 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-101-117.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:53:28 swathanthran [n=user@117.204.82.199] has joined #lisp 16:53:58 deepfire: on the assumption that as well as setting up the buildbot you are also in a position to test fixes for the mips build problem: 16:54:39 Krystof pasted "possible mips build patch" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89249 16:56:14 -!- quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:56:19 let's see if we can get our single buildbot slave actually able to build sbcl :-) 16:57:02 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 16:57:05 hola 16:57:19 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:58:14 if I want to implement a unix-style shell where the inputs are not valid s-exps, what would be easier than reading input as strings and parsing them yourself? 16:58:31 symbol-macro based thinggie? 16:58:56 no, that's harder 16:59:10 (in that it is unlikely to work at all) 16:59:18 i am glad i asked first 16:59:52 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.85.27.68] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:59:53 if the input is an arbitrary sequence of characters, I'm not sure how you can possibly do better than having to parse them 17:00:04 if you can restrict valid input more than that, you may be able to get away with doing less work 17:01:08 my other solution would be to stop worrying about "wrapping" the CLI utilities that I need to provide and interface for, and perhaps negotiate something like a CGI-based interface, in chrooted environment; let the folks play with the actual apps, instead of sanitizing command arguments for them and wasting weeks, converting the apps to CFFIable libraries 17:01:18 Joreji [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:01:34 i already do that with ffmpeg 17:02:00 brb, 4am coffee and cigs for better reflection 17:02:16 -!- drag`` [n=user@82.113.106.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:02:27 drag`` [n=user@82.113.106.86] has joined #lisp 17:06:56 Coffee at 4am seems... unwise :) 17:07:20 ABCL seems to be coming on in leaps and bounds actually; it finally appears to have tolerable CLOS speed 17:07:30 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:07:48 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:08:44 Lotto [n=s_e-b-e_@77.253.183.172] has joined #lisp 17:09:22 Houl [n=Miranda@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 17:09:23 -!- Lotto [n=s_e-b-e_@77.253.183.172] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:09:24 I found the difference: 1.0.31 builds with sbcl_arch="x86", 1.0.32 with sbcl_arch="x86-64" and fails 17:09:51 perhaps my mac os x 10.4.11 is too old 17:09:52 -!- nowhereman [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:10:03 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 17:10:47 nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:06 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 17:11:08 I really hope this ends up in /r/lisp, i am read-only redditer http://www.qrg.northwestern.edu/BPS/directory.html 17:11:23 some very interesting code; been reading it all day 17:11:57 it's a little known lisp book that i have only heard of today http://www.qrg.northwestern.edu/BPS/readme.html 17:12:56 ziga`: Ah, at this point you really might as well upgrade to at least leopard 17:14:37 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@76.170.134.79] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 17:14:49 or leave apple world, 17:15:13 Lotto [n=s_e-b-e_@77.253.183.172] has joined #lisp 17:15:33 http://bio.pdg.pl/ 17:15:35 -!- Lotto [n=s_e-b-e_@77.253.183.172] has left #lisp 17:15:41 no, I love this niche platform 17:15:43 :) 17:16:06 fusss: That book costs $90... I guess some things in life really aren't free. 17:16:06 Krystof, sadly, the -commit mails are delayed.. by sourceforge? 17:16:36 Krystof, but you can force the update/build 17:16:49 Adlai: i don't have the book but you can reverse-engineer it from the code, if you have some PAIP chapters under your belt 17:17:29 Krystof, the third row in the table, the machine's name 17:17:37 *Adlai* is thinking of finally getting PAIP after reverse-engineering IT from the code for the past few months... 17:18:27 i thinking of putting some of the dialog stuff from PAIP into my uni project 17:19:31 i think it would be pretty sweet to allow the player to talk to the AI opponent in a small way 17:20:27 as long as i reference it properly in the writeup of course... 17:21:09 Ok, apparently the -commits mail weren't reaching the build master. 17:21:18 *mails 17:23:01 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-54-168.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:26:08 myrkraverk` [n=johann@157.157.187.221] has joined #lisp 17:26:30 -!- metric [n=metric@209-20-86-67.slicehost.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:26:55 IT WORKS! 17:30:42 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:31:35 fusss: if you want to write a command-line interface, you might want to study the sources of zsh 17:32:01 Fare: I wrote on in C when I was first learning Unix 17:32:19 and last I checked Zsh was massive. is there something you like about it? 17:32:20 fusss: shouldn't be harder in Lisp than in C 17:32:36 scsh could be a be better choice for studying, imo 17:33:07 scsh doesn't have an interactive command-line interface, does it? 17:33:43 fusss: you might want to use a cffi interface to libev and/or re-port a good event loop to iolib. 17:34:06 libev == libevent? 17:34:11 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:13 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:34:30 fusss: it's a fork of libevent 17:34:37 oh 17:34:40 fusss: libev was a better reimplementation of libevent a few years ago. I dunno if libevent got back as the better one since 17:34:46 i liked libevent; memcached uses it 17:35:02 libevent/libev is ok, but they don't support windows 17:36:31 slava: there is now 17:36:54 nah 17:36:59 select() doesn't count 17:37:08 "Happily, libevent will now build out of the box on Windows (at least with VC2003 and VC2008, I haven't tested others)." -- http://code.jellycan.com/memcached/ 17:37:25 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:38:05 Win32 non-blocking I/O arcana http://darcs.haskell.org/ghc/docs/comm/rts-libs/non-blocking.html 17:39:03 my rule of thumb is that Windows has any Unixy system call or primitive you can imagine, but it's poorly understood, poorly used, and poorly documented 17:39:47 I've found that msdn docs are better than any linux manpage 17:39:53 also overlapped I/O is pretty nice 17:40:05 It lacks a lot of unix-oid IPC stuff 17:40:06 it doesn't help that the MSDN web server has a cron-job which sends 404s for all the URLs in its database every 3 months; MS bookmark cache invalidation algorithm (tm) 17:40:18 metric [n=metric@209-20-86-67.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:22 robsynnott: like what? 17:40:26 there's shared memory, semaphores, pipes 17:40:36 all i/o is non-blocking except for the console 17:40:39 fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:47 named pipes are supported 17:41:22 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:41:48 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:42:19 robsynnott: there are tons of 3rd party COM components which wrap the win32 API and provide faster primitives than the stock ones, sometimes with the same syntax and semantics as Unix ones 17:42:40 why would you want the same semantics as unix though? 17:43:01 lletres [n=nieve@pool-173-52-150-18.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:04 its really corny when people port software to windows by sticking it on top of a windows emulation layer 17:43:12 I have seen some fancy OLAP stuff that rendered 3D graphs of multi-terabyte databases .. realtime 17:43:29 its like recompiling your win32 app with libwine and saying you have a linux port 17:43:54 slava: The opposite happens too; most commercial MacOS and Linux games use some WINE variant or other 17:44:19 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:44:36 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219.89.105.20] has joined #lisp 17:44:41 So I guess it sounds like someone who says EQ is bound to be flamed? 17:45:07 This pcl book makes it sound like it :D 17:46:00 EQ has its uses 17:46:03 just not often :) 17:46:13 Harag1 [n=phil@196.2.104.132] has joined #lisp 17:46:21 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:46:46 I think it was saying some interpretations will return true on comparing 1 and "1", but I'm not sure 17:47:23 htk__ [n=htk___@95.65.241.183] has joined #lisp 17:47:25 fatalnix1995: not even equalp returns that 17:47:26 For eq? I doubt it 17:47:30 The most advanced equality system I've used is with perl, because theres == and eq 17:47:42 EQ is the most strict of equalities, it's *pointer* equality 17:47:44 though there is some implementation which has slightly different eq behaviour to most 17:48:09 I see 17:48:17 EQ tests for identity, so (eq 1 1) may return NIL 17:48:44 fatalnix1995: the type system wont allow you to coerce an integer to string or vice versa; you will need formatting for that 17:48:55 fatalnix1995: does one of those perl tests say that 1 and "1" are equal? 17:49:07 -!- TDT [n=dthole@254.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has quit [] 17:49:10 robsynnott, both of those tests say that. 17:49:20 quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has joined #lisp 17:49:24 php and javascript do that kind of lousy type promotion 17:49:41 -!- ziga` [n=user@89.142.123.220] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:49:51 ziga` [n=user@BSN-142-123-220.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:55 robsynnott no, but sometimes I believe you can use strings as numbers. 17:50:16 which is bad and handy at the same time. 17:50:28 bleh 17:50:33 perl -e 'print 1 + "2"' => 3 17:50:53 yep 17:51:33 anyway, this something a Perl book should've covered well enough that you would not say 'no' above or 'sometimes' here, and it has nothing to do with EQ in CL. 17:51:41 It has its uses, but the problem is it probably slows it down quite a bit finding that its a string and converting it and all 17:51:53 no, it doesn't do that. 17:52:10 perl doesn't do? 17:52:43 yay for ayrnieu for confusing us all. 17:53:01 anyway, perl is OT, so who cares 17:53:05 stassats, Perl doesn't 'slow down quite a bit finding that something is a string and converting it' 17:53:19 [citation needed] 17:53:26 just kidding 17:53:28 I wrote that, and it was just a guess 17:54:22 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:54:47 -!- Harag [n=phil@41.208.198.23] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:55:00 but one of my thoughts was answered, you can use format to convert types? 17:55:52 stassats, scalars in Perl, and numbers in Tcl, work similarly: you have a big fat object with 'string' and 'number' representations and an indication as to which is current. So if you do a bunch of numerical operations, Perl and (at least, modern) Tcl are not slowed down by string operations or representation. 17:56:03 -!- lletres_ [n=nieve@pool-96-246-66-100.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:56:18 fatal - (format nil "~A" 10) => "10" 17:56:41 that's pretty cool :) 17:57:18 scode_ [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 17:58:11 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:24 clhs parse-integer 17:59:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_parse_.htm 18:00:02 -!- Pete_R [n=quassel@78.96.132.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:00:21 fatalnix1995: For converting string->number, parse-integer is a safe way to do it for integers. If you need to read more complicated numbers, you can always just READ them from the string, but that's got some more complicated issues. 18:00:39 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:00:42 I think I read about parse-integer in chapter 3 of pcl 18:01:24 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:02:04 (write-to-string 10 :pretty nil) is better 18:02:10 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:02:17 i mean, should be faster 18:02:30 is that a macro? 18:02:38 nope, a function 18:02:41 clhs write-to-string 18:02:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_to_.htm 18:02:47 why would you think it's a macro? 18:03:04 lichtblau on #lisp (+nc,lag:0) Topic for #lisp is: Common Lisp, the #1=(programm 18:03:04 have a big fat object with 'string' and 'number' representations and 18:03:04 an indication as to which is current. So if you do a bunch of 18:03:11 fatalnix1995: I suggest you read http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html to get an idea of the complexity of equality. 18:03:12 numerical operations, Perl and (at least, modern) Tcl are not slowed 18:03:12 down by string operations or representation. 18:03:14 *** lletres_ (n=nieve@pool-96-246-66-100.nycmny.east.verizon.net) has quit: 18:03:17 Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) [18:56] 18:03:20 fatal - (format nil "~A" 10) => "10" 18:03:23 that's pretty cool :) 18:03:26 *** scode_ (n=scode@hyperion.scode.org) has joined channel #lisp [18:57] 18:03:28 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 18:03:30 *** saikat_ (n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined channel 18:03:30 #lisp [18:58] 18:03:33 clhs parse-integer [18:59] 18:03:35 -!- Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has been kicked from #lisp 18:03:42 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 18:03:46 lol 18:04:31 Well, if you want to turn, say, an integer into a string, that's one way to do it 18:04:47 fatalnix1995: You can't determine equality without paying attention to the application. For instance, the phone company considers my wife an me to be equal because we have the same phone number. 18:05:04 lichtblau [n=user@92.195.70.58] has joined #lisp 18:05:22 fatalnix1995: You could imagine an equality predicate with three arguments, two objects, and a "context", but that is not usually how it is done. 18:05:37 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-101-109.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 18:05:46 [oh, and good evening everyone] 18:06:12 beach: Wouldn't it be simpler to have a generic function that "infers" context from the classes you're comparing? 18:06:17 [good evening beach ] 18:07:08 Adlai: It can't because I can compare equality of (say) people in different ways depending on the application. The phone company might consider me and my wife to be the same, but certainly, social security or our employers don't. 18:07:58 Adlai: I suppose you could make a rule that in any particular Lisp image, only one such context would be legal. I think that would be a design flaw. 18:07:58 true, your predicate would be more extensible. 18:10:22 here's the correct way to convert positive integers into strings: (loop repeat (1+ (log n 10)) collect (code-char (+ #.(char-code #\0) (mod n 10))) into digits do (setf n (floor n 10)) finally (return (coerce (reverse digits) 'string)) 18:10:52 dlowe [n=dlowe@66.31.18.57] has joined #lisp 18:10:56 ayrnieu: correct in what sense? 18:11:18 that use of code-char/char-code is not reliable. 18:11:26 or is it a joke? 18:11:31 *Xach* too slow 18:12:05 It isn't serious -- but I didn't know that that use wasn't reliable. 18:12:17 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 18:12:22 ayrnieu: better to use digit-char-p or digit-char 18:12:32 sorry, both, not either/or 18:12:34 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:12:36 -!- scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:12:42 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 18:13:03 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-157-147.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:13:09 ayrnieu: what about (loop for n = then (floor n 10) until (zerop n) ...) 18:13:34 ayrnieu: in practice code-char/char-code will probably do what you expect. but the spec doesn't guarantee it, and there are more appropriate functions. 18:13:54 Adlai - I like that, but I'd have to fit (log n 10) back in somehow :-) 18:14:51 Ok, I "fixed" cvs watcher and two buildslaves by running a single `make' command in a proper directory. 18:15:14 TR2N [i=email@89-180-230-194.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 18:15:43 So cvs notifications will trigger builds again. 18:15:47 Xach - *nod*. It's C that guarantees that the '0' '1' ... '9' are sequential. 18:17:09 ayrnieu: why? doesn't the termination clause replace that? 18:17:48 *fusss* tells the chan about princ-to-string, which doesn't suck in tight loops 18:18:10 Adlai - no technical reason. 18:18:48 Ok, /me gives up and installs /usr/bin/time 18:19:25 actually, I guess a version with less consing would be to grab log10 n at the start of the loop, allocate a string of that length with a fill pointer of 0, and vector-push the characters into it. 18:19:34 dont you have it? 18:20:02 deepfire: cool 18:21:32 even in EBCDIC, 0..9 are sequential. Does anyone in their right mind use an encoding when they aren't? 18:23:56 no 18:24:36 ds_ [n=ds@adsl-67-125-20-230.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:16 numbers are sequential, and alphabets are sequential; just don't assume an order to upper case and lowercase alpha chars, nor between numbers and alpha chars 18:25:23 Fare, I brought up the x86-64 buildbots, one less for you to care about 18:27:13 -!- ds_ [n=ds@adsl-67-125-20-230.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has left #lisp 18:27:51 fusss: in the russian encoding koi8-r cyrillic characters aren't sequential 18:28:07 stassats: but would you use koi8-r as an *internal* encoding? 18:28:36 it seems that for in-memory computation with strings, you either want ascii or unicode, anything else and you're setting yourself up for fail 18:28:51 ( http://github.com/sykopomp/sheeple/blob/devel/examples/elves.lisp ) 18:28:59 i wouldn't use it even as an external encoding 18:29:13 anymore 18:31:41 ayrnieu: Don't blame me, he wrote that file. 18:32:02 deepfire: do you still need x86-64 buildbots? 18:32:10 you can use the same machine inside a chroot... 18:32:53 unicode is a character repertoire, not an encoding 18:34:26 mapping code points to integers is an encoding 18:34:37 i didn't know sheeple was for high-rollers only; (defparameter *minimum-balance* 500) 18:36:46 slava: not a desperately useful one for computational implementation. Unless you happen to have a base-#x110000 bignum implementation handy, I suppose 18:37:08 (it's not a complete encoding to the point of specifying the in-memory representation) 18:37:29 fusss: on the contrary, Sheeple is [for] the masses. 18:38:19 deepfire: so, are you in a position to test my attempted mips build fix? 18:39:04 Adlai: patch, ++ (- *minimum-balance*) 18:39:58 Axius [n=ojof@92.82.86.99] has joined #lisp 18:41:46 fusss: by the way, that example (I assume you're looking at #P"sheeple:examples;pcl-clos.lisp") is ported pretty directly from the book PCL 18:41:54 fusss: Cents, perhaps? :) 18:41:54 so take this one up with gigamonkey 18:42:22 -!- nipra [n=nipra@117.195.98.158] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:43:10 lletres_ [n=nieve@pool-173-52-0-95.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:26 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:45:34 -!- tomyl [n=user@83.250.123.20] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:48:15 aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:49:44 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-230.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 18:51:28 ayrnieu: Don't blame Adlai, -I- wrote that file! 18:51:50 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:53:23 -!- lletres [n=nieve@pool-173-52-150-18.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:54:32 ferada [n=user@85.179.237.188] has joined #lisp 18:57:01 Krystof: I'm on a uniprocessor, too, and run-program.impure.lisp keeps on succeeding for me. 18:57:38 hmm... is there somewhere a reference implementation of LOOP? 18:57:52 Fare, no, just x86 18:58:11 hi, is there a library to read and convert foreign types (with cffi) directly from a stream? 18:58:45 Krystof, the build failed, http://feelingofgreen.ru:8010/sbcl-linux-mips64/builds/246/step-compile/1 18:58:56 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.82.86.99] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:00:47 Krystof, you could've triggered the build manually, (even now you might want it, as the sf commit mails are delayed) using the links from the third row of the summary page 19:01:30 ferada: what kind of stream ? 19:01:56 fe[nl]ix: byte stream, (unsigned-byte 8) 19:02:26 fe[nl]ix: created from a file descriptor; oh and i'm using sbcl 19:02:35 p_l: see sacla loop 19:02:38 minion: sacla? 19:02:40 sacla: A partial (as of 2004) Common Lisp implementation written in Common Lisp by Yuji Minejima, under a BSD style license. http://www.cliki.net/sacla 19:02:58 ferada: see sb-sys:make-fd-stream 19:03:31 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:34 drewc: I had an idea regarding an open-source equivalent of LinJ 19:03:46 fe[nl]ix: yeah already have. but how can i do something like (read-foreign stream :uint32) ? 19:04:19 -!- quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 19:04:27 drewc: hi drew 19:04:36 http://homepage1.nifty.com/bmonkey/lisp/sacla/html/lisp/loop.lisp.html 19:04:43 minion: tell ferada about binary-types 19:04:45 ferada: direct your attention towards binary-types: Binary-types is a Library for accessing binary files with fixed bit-length code-words. http://www.cliki.net/binary-types 19:05:05 binarycodes [n=user@59.93.217.232] has joined #lisp 19:05:21 fe[nl]ix]: ah thanks a lot 19:05:37 hi drewc. Did you read on proggit about the sailing ex-NASA engineer who wrote Apple Word? 19:05:39 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 19:06:23 gaze [n=gaze@ResNet-36-86.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 19:06:45 p_l: what's the advantage of that over, say, abcl? 19:06:52 felideon: hey, how goes? 19:07:00 tcr: i didn't, got a url? 19:07:04 nipra [n=nipra@117.195.98.158] has joined #lisp 19:07:16 drewc: I can bullshit the person receiving the code that it's written in java 19:07:27 rwiker [n=rwiker@73.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:07:49 p_l: fair enough. 19:08:15 drewc: good. seeing if I can dedicate more time for UCW this month :) 19:08:52 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["Segmentation Fault"] 19:09:06 Axius [n=ojof@92.82.86.99] has joined #lisp 19:09:28 drewc: also, my current idea would allow me to use quite a lot of automation on Lisp side regarding writing the code :) 19:10:11 *Xach* finally set up an elisp system to automatically populate lisp buffers with one of the four patterns of lisp code he uses in his lisp files. 19:10:43 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 19:11:04 Xach: more than just sratch-lisp-file? :) 19:11:26 i can populate with the pattern of code i use: the buggy one 19:11:40 felideon: 300% more! 19:12:00 minion: tell Xach lisppaste 19:12:00 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 19:12:00 :) 19:13:08 at the moment i find myself usually doing one of these: a standalone file that starts with defpackage and has the whole, small application, and no asd file -- just a small utility program that i might not re-use; a file in a larger project that starts with an in-package; the package.lisp file of a larger project; or an .asd file. 19:13:37 *Xach* is pants at elisp, but it has already saved some time with it 19:14:06 Xach: that sounds about right. 19:14:20 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-168-238-211.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:27 Krystof, ok, three build failures (look at the latest instances, these are genuine, others had surfacial causes): clisp/x64, ccl/x64 and sbcl/mips32 19:16:40 disumu [n=disumu@p54BCEA26.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:55 lletres [n=nieve@pool-173-52-2-69.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:30 -!- drag`` [n=user@82.113.106.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:18:41 drag`` [n=user@82.113.106.86] has joined #lisp 19:22:22 -!- binarycodes [n=user@59.93.217.232] has quit ["bye"] 19:22:59 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@81.84.184.184] has joined #lisp 19:23:29 binarycodes [n=user@59.93.217.232] has joined #lisp 19:23:32 drewc: You got the privmsg? 19:24:55 tcr: doh.. wasn't identified with nickserv 19:26:30 drewc: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9x15g/programming_thought_experiment_stuck_in_a_room/c0ev6lj 19:27:09 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:27:19 -!- s0ber [i=pie@114-45-234-18.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:28:01 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@66.31.18.57] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:28:03 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 19:28:03 -!- lletres_ [n=nieve@pool-173-52-0-95.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:28:33 Fare, mailed you 19:30:32 Xach: I have a similar skeleton app thing that I do global string replace with 19:32:09 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:32:12 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-140-67.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:32 tcr: cool! 19:35:16 might it not be possible to have elisp code that DTRT depending on whether you're 1) opening a (new) file named *.asd;2) opening a new file named package.lisp; 3) opening a new file in a directory that contains a file named package.lisp; 4) anything else? 19:37:40 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 19:37:42 -!- drag`` [n=user@82.113.106.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:39:06 cads [n=max@c-24-30-55-172.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:12 Now, that mcclim thread on c.l.l.. and Joswig replying like he did.. I feel a need for balance in the opposite direction. 19:39:56 *beach* goes and reads Rainer's reply. 19:41:10 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:41:26 rwiker: it's all possible 19:42:03 deepfire: fab. I'll look at the clisp/ccl ones later (actually I have in my tree at work an attempt at fixing ccl as build host) 19:42:13 Krystof, one more question 19:42:36 Krystof: any idea how much to budget for hotel & food? 19:42:40 (re SBCL 10) 19:42:44 Krystof, do you think that making a waterfall-wranglers list would make sense? 19:43:11 Krystof, and if so, can it be done via launchpad, by adding one more list to the sbcl project? 19:43:23 quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has joined #lisp 19:44:01 The list purpose being general matters, not build failures. 19:44:06 whats the average mem footprint of SBCL, is 135mb large 19:44:27 pkhuong: hotel, I'm afraid I don't really have any idea. I'm providing lunches; so far no company has offered to subsidize dinners for us (but I haven't tried very hard yet) 19:44:44 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-93193.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:44:44 Guthur: depends on what you're doing, but especially on x86-64, not that bad. 19:45:05 one place I thought we might try to go for dinner has an average food cost of about 10 UKP per head, and has excellent food but not great for discussion and doesn't take reservations 19:45:06 Jabberwockey [n=jens@84.46.52.166] has joined #lisp 19:45:33 pkhuong, ok cheers, i am trying to figure out why my emacs buffers start to flicker 19:45:41 deepfire: can you change the clisp build line to "clisp -ansi -on-error abort" rather than just bare clisp? 19:45:56 Krystof, looking into it.. 19:46:56 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:49:44 pkhuong: basically, depends on your standard of living. There may be people willing to offer spare bedrooms / couches if you want to keep costs down 19:49:56 I plan to advertise the workshop on uk-lispers 19:50:38 Harag [n=phil@41.213.23.180] has joined #lisp 19:52:38 -!- Harag [n=phil@41.213.23.180] has quit [Client Quit] 19:52:58 borism [n=boris@195.50.197.221] has joined #lisp 19:54:16 -!- Harag1 [n=phil@196.2.104.132] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:54:30 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 19:54:59 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:01 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:55:30 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:56:01 -!- rwiker [n=rwiker@73.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:57:06 ruediger__ [n=ruediger@93-82-5-94.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:57:44 lletres_ [n=nieve@pool-96-246-58-167.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:49 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.165.8] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:58:47 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.165.8] has joined #lisp 19:59:48 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:16 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-038-199.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:58 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:59 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:01:51 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:52 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:03:06 Krystof, done, and it seems to have passed the trouble point, apparently due to -ansi.. 20:03:39 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-18-249.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:04:06 no, it's actually because of the -on-error abort 20:04:23 what happens is that sbcl signals a continuable error because clisp warns (on legal code) 20:04:34 -on-error abort actually means "on error, continue if possible, otherwise abort" 20:04:51 Pete_R [n=quassel@78.96.132.194] has joined #lisp 20:05:49 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-68-90.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:07:00 Aha.. 20:07:02 -!- htk__ [n=htk___@95.65.241.183] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:08:49 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@166.190.38.21] has joined #lisp 20:09:05 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:07 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:09:28 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@166.190.38.21] has quit [Client Quit] 20:10:29 -!- lletres [n=nieve@pool-173-52-2-69.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection 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quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:14:51 -!- sah0s [n=anto@10.134.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [] 20:16:02 -!- rsynnott [n=rsynnott@87-198-231-166.ptr.magnet.ie] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:16:08 rsynnott [n=rsynnott@87-198-231-166.ptr.magnet.ie] has joined #lisp 20:16:13 sah0s [n=anto@10.134.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:17:24 -!- rsynnott is now known as Guest24708 20:18:28 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-62-202.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:18:28 pjb [n=t@85-169-61-208.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 20:18:34 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:34 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-61-208.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:18:35 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:20:09 TDT [n=dthole@254.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:25 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 20:20:31 pjb [n=t@85-169-61-208.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 20:20:43 I guess I'll regret the c.l.l post I just made. 20:20:45 rwiker_ [n=rwiker@73.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:21:04 -!- rwiker_ [n=rwiker@73.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:21:16 kenny talking crap about mcclim? .. heh 20:21:47 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-16-216.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:21:59 lnostdal: Kenny is usually talking crap about anything that he can't make money out of, or that might make money instead of him. 20:22:56 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 20:23:04 lnostdal: Given his situation, I can see why he does that, but I don't see why I should accept it. 20:24:48 that's fair enough, but I'm not sure that anyone is paying attention to comp.lang.lisp as a forum for discussion anymore, are they? 20:24:58 ak701 [n=ak70@195.158.89.236] has joined #lisp 20:25:28 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.82.86.99] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:25:51 Krystof: not for lack of trying, though... It took me some time to filter spam for c.l.l. 20:26:12 Then I found out that most of it is spam, even the on-topic things :( 20:26:13 Krystof: Someone is, given the number of posts. But yeah, I am definitely giving up on it, given the SNR. 20:26:21 Sikander: news.dotsrc.org 20:26:48 xristos: even they can't filter the on-topic spam! ;) 20:27:15 fair enough ;p 20:27:30 *xristos* fires up gnus 20:27:52 *felideon* stopped reading comp.lang.lisp for two reasons: (1) never-ending "I'm right, you're wrong" threads, (2) my ISP dropped Usenet support 20:28:28 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:29 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:28:48 You're *wrong* for stopping to read c.l.l. I'm *right.* 20:29:12 I also didn't understand the "Why aren't you using lisp" poll popping up on everything lisp 20:29:57 It sounded stupid, so I didn't waste time investigating 20:30:31 Most ISPs seem to be dropping it now 20:30:34 of course, there's always Google Groups... 20:30:49 robsynnott: see above 20:31:09 ah :) 20:31:18 *robsynnott* finds kenny quite entertaining 20:31:23 -!- ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.89.236] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:31:29 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:30 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:31:59 Well, if I understand correctly, cells is the best thing since sliced bread 20:32:10 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229145090.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 20:33:05 *Sikander* doesn't know anything else about cells. 20:33:23 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@pD9E6EE61.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 20:33:28 it supposed to be great, yeah, not that I would know 20:33:45 Perhaps what c.l.l needs is someone whith superior mastery not only of the English language, but of the devastating British wit that is so prominent in movies that depict 19th century England. That would take much more time than to create the crude 20th century American coarse wit that many people fall for these days. 20:34:19 ziga`: Oh yeah, I know that it's supposed to be great, and that clim is supposed to suck. 20:34:20 robsynnott: Sorry to hear that. He is very insulting really. 20:34:31 clim sucks so much, I'm actually using it! 20:34:32 Invalid index 0: must be between 0 and -1. 20:34:45 Sikander: what are you using CLIM for? 20:34:52 McCLIM? 20:34:58 ziga`: yes, mcclim 20:35:05 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:35:13 hey, it's a clim, right 20:35:28 ziga`: I can't speak for Sikander, but I use it for pretty much everything these days. 20:35:30 Sikander: yeah, but what are you doing with McCLIM? 20:35:36 really? 20:35:42 minion: tell ziga` about Gsharp 20:35:43 ziga`: have a look at Gsharp: Gsharp is a graphical, interactive score editing application for standard Music notation. http://www.cliki.net/Gsharp 20:35:47 oh 20:36:13 clim listener kicks ass to try out stuff, and I'm writing some of my own applications in clim. Currently I'm working on some plotting type thing. 20:36:14 Invalid index 0: must be between 0 and -1. 20:36:19 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 20:36:21 -!- Pete_R [n=quassel@78.96.132.194] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:36:32 Sikander: Cells is a FRP framework that Kenny created without knowing about FRP. 20:36:42 what was wrong with specbot there 20:36:43 ziga`: recently, I wrote an application to help me teach Vietnamese. It has 275 lines of code, and the first version took me 2 hours to write. 20:36:51 lol 20:36:53 Guthur: he's upset 20:36:54 do usenet replies take a while to appear on Google Groups? 20:36:58 clim present 20:36:59 Multiple entries found. Try looking up one of: "present,Presentation Method", "present,Function", "present,Concept" 20:37:07 Guthur: it happens when you start a line with `clim' 20:37:08 so you use McCLIM for 'ad hoc' hacking 20:37:26 lol clim, mad this channel is 20:37:27 ziga`: I use it for pretty much any application I need to write. 20:37:41 remove that comma 20:37:41 sellout: aha, so that's why I never found it revolutionary 20:38:06 its cool though i'm sure, i will probably use it some time 20:38:19 beach: Gsharp is yours? 20:38:28 ziga`: For my last application (simple I admit), see http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/app.png. 20:38:36 ziga`: It is, yes. 20:39:00 nice I must admit 20:39:03 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.89.236] has joined #lisp 20:39:06 ziga`: Though other people have worked on it of course, including Krystof and some people in his group. 20:39:24 ziga`: Thanks! 20:39:45 beach: McCLIM is X windows right? 20:39:50 beach: interesting. I got a bootleg copy of Rosetta stone for my wife to learn English. If I see it sucks (I read somewhere it gives the false impression of progress) I may have to write something myself 20:40:26 nice font rendering 20:40:32 but spartan widgets 20:40:47 Sikander: I agree with this. Recently, I had to plot some sums and products of sine waves. It was incredibly easy to do interactively from the listener, pretty much with no other support than McCLIM and the listener. 20:41:04 I think I saw GTK McCLIM screenshots 20:41:20 beach: can you paste the code somewhere? *That* sounds useful to me. 20:41:29 hehe sounds like McCLIM is da thing 20:41:54 ziga`: I use an X11 backend with the mcclim-truetype for that latest application. I don't know what other backends work, because I don't need them. 20:42:01 does anybody here run it on Mac OS X? 20:42:21 ziga`: not recommended 20:42:25 ziga`: There's a Cocoa backend for CCL, but it's been a long time since I've run it. 20:42:28 ziga' just added ttf 20:42:28 gtkairo backend of mcclim has some... problems 20:42:44 ziga`: But I know one thing, it is easier to write a backend for McCLIM than to write your own spec for your own library, and then to implement it with fewer bugs than McCLIM has. 20:42:48 at least, for me 20:42:48 ziga' to that set of widgets i was talking of earlier 20:42:58 aha 20:43:13 pkhuong: I probably already did that. Let me see where it is... 20:43:23 I think mcclim with the clx and freetype backends is fine 20:44:05 pkhuong: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Vietnamese/ 20:44:26 pkhuong: but it has evolved a bit since. If you want a recent version, let me know. 20:44:28 I was just hoping someone who knows "stuff" would implement the possibility of anti-aliased drawing as well. I think hefner told me some time ago he had some patches that almost worked. 20:44:32 judging from Gsharp screenshots it's quite flexible - I'm interested CL guis for a Mathematica kind of 'notebook' interface for Maxima.. If I ever really write one 20:44:34 beach: that's for the sine waves? 20:44:40 -!- ak701 [n=ak70@195.158.89.236] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:44:51 pkhuong: Oh, sorry, no. 20:45:09 pkhuong: Let me try to dig that up. It was mostly interactive experiments. 20:45:55 Guthur: widgets in SDL if I remember correctly? 20:46:07 felideon: Vietnamese is unique in that "words" don't change as a result as a result of conjugations or cases, so it is much easier to write such an application for Vietnamese than for any western language. 20:46:13 I wanted to make a small package for quickly plotting in the clim listener. Then I found the broken with-room-for-graphics when using clipping :( Still haven't understood where the bug is 20:46:18 -!- Younder [n=jthing@84.202.157.22] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:46:47 Sikander: did you report it (with a test case that exposes it) to the mcclim-devel list? 20:46:54 ziga' indeed, but for real desktop apps the likes of CLIM would be the way to go, I'm only really aiming at games with this 20:46:55 did anybody run McCLIM succesfully on *GASP* Windows? 20:47:18 beach: You keep asking me this (or wasn't it you the last time?) 20:47:33 ziga`: Very unlikely at the moment I would think. There is a graphic-forms backend, but it hasn't been worked on for a while. 20:47:40 Guthur: real desktop apps are written in C++ so... 20:47:44 Sikander: I am sure it was me. 20:47:53 beach: hmm. isn't English the same? except for past tense I guess, we use auxiliary verbs and stuff mostly 20:48:11 Sikander: But my memory is so bad these days that I can't remember. 20:48:27 felideon: also third-person singular. 20:48:34 beach: so a backend is possible? How is the state with file selector dialogs in McCLIM -- listener doesnt count? 20:49:00 beach: true 20:49:06 beach: I have a bad memory as well, so that's why I can't remember if it was you :) Anyway, http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/mcclim-devel/2009-July/thread.html 20:49:19 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 20:49:35 ziga`: My students worked on a file selector many years ago, but abandoned it. I am sure there is code in there somewhere, but I don't know the state of it. 20:49:37 beach: If you are a clim-wiz, would you have a look at it, or point me in the right direction to fix it? 20:49:39 ziga`: a lot of windows apps nowadays are written in .NET 20:50:16 ziga`: I'm personally considering working on a NT6.x backend for mcclim, but that's for later 20:50:25 Sikander: I am making an effort to become a McCLIM maintainer again, so I'll look at it. If it is that recent, it is in my inbox. 20:50:37 ziga' only because developers are creatures of habit. Though the tonne of libraries is good as well, and what p_l said 20:50:50 Sikander: whether I am a CLIM wiz is another question of course. 20:50:50 demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-207-144.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:54 beach: july? recent? you're memory MUST be better than mine! I call yesterday recent 20:50:57 beach: so with McCLIM is basicly `roll your own', but it is fairly easy to extend it? 20:51:21 pkhuong: I haven't forgotten you, but others keep my busy right now. 20:51:29 p_l: NT6.x as in Windows? 20:51:40 Sikander: I rely on tools to replace my memory. 20:51:49 beach: no problem. I might also try and go with one of the Qt systems 20:51:52 beach: I usually forget what these tools were 20:52:01 Sikander: heh :) 20:52:43 ziga`: Oh, the CLIM spec makes it possible to use different `backends' as part of the defined protocols. 20:52:43 ziga`: as in Vista/win7 20:52:59 Regarding McCLIM - on the page it says: The most recent release of McCLIM is 0.9.6, in April 2008, is it OK to use this one? 20:53:19 ziga`: Once you implement your own backend, most other things should "just work". 20:53:25 file selector dialogs can't be _that_ difficult to make in mcclim, can they? I mean, the listener basically already has something like that, so it can be extracted and put in some add-on like package 20:53:27 ziga`: use CVS. 20:53:35 p_l: sounds great - this could finally be 'the' CL gui lib then :) 20:53:47 ziga`: mcclim is in clbuild 20:53:53 ziga`: clbuild uses the cvs version 20:54:12 ziga`: yeah, I first need to find some documentation that understands that I'm building the GUI on the fly, not loading a predefined XML file 20:54:19 Sikander: it is easy stuff. My students tried to over-engineer it by making a tree app and then make a file app a special case of it. 20:54:19 Sikander: I've never used clbuild :) 20:54:29 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:43 -!- sah0s [n=anto@10.134.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:54:53 *beach* tries to find what pkhuong asked for 20:54:54 ziga`: it's pretty nice, but you should use what you want to use. I do suggest mcclim cvs 20:55:01 p_l: so youre not using win32 api but something more 'sophisticated'? 20:55:37 sah0s [n=anto@10.134.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:55:59 beach: If one were to contribute a file selector dialog, would this person notify the mcclim-devel list (i.e. would they be interested) or should it be a separate package? 20:56:02 milanj- [n=milan@93.86.187.70] has joined #lisp 20:56:04 Sikander: I've downloaded the 'CVS snapshot' from the page.. now to get it to work with macosX 20:56:29 ziga`: WPF 20:56:36 ah, macosx... 20:56:46 -!- Ppjet6 is now known as Pepe_ 20:57:45 So wait, kenny still uses chello? 20:57:46 mcclim is so big and lispy - it's scary 20:57:57 rather, cello? 20:58:14 Sikander: does this cello even work? It sounded nice - opengl and all 20:58:36 or is it 'works-on-my-machine-TM' 20:58:37 ak701 [n=ak70@195.158.89.236] has joined #lisp 20:59:03 cells-gtk is nice 20:59:20 if only kenny touches it, don't expect it to work out of the box 20:59:24 ziga`: I got started with mcclim by looking at the demos. I found especially the address book example to be useful 20:59:41 he uses allegro specific stuff, doesn't document and doesn't expect his code to be used by others 20:59:48 cells is an exception 20:59:51 Sikander: thanks, I was just meaning to ask where to start.. 20:59:55 beach when you said tree app, did you mean that GUI elements would all be within a tree, or something else? 21:00:00 maybe cells-gtk too since it's maintained by different person 21:00:21 yes, it works out of the box (the git repo) 21:00:24 -!- ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.89.236] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:00:37 do I need CLX to make it work on Mac OS X? 21:00:40 probably 21:00:48 ziga`: yes 21:00:53 for documentation, there is a big example app 21:01:04 danlei: i haven't looked at cells-gtk 21:01:07 ziga`: I would suggest to also use mcclim-freetype 21:01:36 ziga`: the asdf file can be found in the mcclim tree in Experimental/freetype/ 21:01:42 ziga' what kind of app are you looking at making? 21:01:46 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:02:19 Guthur: a Mathematica notebook style GUI for Maxima if I manage to do any of it 21:02:21 Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has joined #lisp 21:03:02 lletres [n=nieve@pool-173-52-146-212.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:12 mcclim sure is nice too, but I couldn't get it to work on ccl/windows 21:03:36 orks out of the box (the git repo) [22:00] 21:03:36 *** ak70 (n=ak70@195.158.89.236) has quit: Read error: 145 (Connection timed 21:03:36 out) 21:03:36 do I need CLX to make it work on Mac OS X? 21:03:36 probably 21:03:36 ziga`: yes 21:03:36 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.21.109] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:03:37 for documentation, there is a big example app 21:03:41 danlei: i haven't looked at cells-gtk 21:03:43 ziga`: I would suggest to also use mcclim-freetype 21:03:48 ziga`: the asdf file can be found in the mcclim tree in 21:03:51 pkhuong: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Pkhuong/ 21:03:51 Experimental/freetype/ [22:01] 21:03:51 ziga' what kind of app are you looking at making? 21:03:56 *** Krystof (n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk) has quit: 21:03:58 ziga`: if you are interested, I plan on targeting windows xp sp2+, 2003, Vista, 7 and 2008(R2), all with .NET 3.5+ 21:04:00 Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) 21:04:00 Guthur: a Mathematica notebook style GUI for Maxima if I manage to do 21:04:01 pkhuong: Not very exciting though. 21:04:04 any of it [22:02] 21:04:07 *** Krystof (n=csr21@84.51.132.95) has joined channel #lisp 21:04:10 *** lletres (n=nieve@pool-173-52-146-212.nycmny.east.verizon.net) has joined 21:04:13 channel #lisp 21:04:16 ERC> debugger invoked on a ASDF:COMPILE-WARNED in thread #: 21:04:20 erred while invoking # on 21:04:23 # 21:04:23 -!- binarycodes [n=user@59.93.217.232] has quit ["bye"] 21:04:25 ... 21:04:26 heh .. copy/paste .. it's dangerous stuff 21:04:27 SORRY 21:04:30 emacs trouble 21:04:39 Sikander: Send it to mcclim-devel. I'll take it from there. 21:04:49 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:04:53 lol i was about to say maxima seems to have an emacs mode 21:04:55 p_l: I'll perhaps be interested when I manage to do something with McCLIM, but it sounds really usefull. 21:05:10 beach: Heheh. I'll get it in a reasonable shape first 21:05:10 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:16 or emacs has a maxima mode rather 21:05:40 It would be cooler the other way around 21:05:57 this is just disappointing, I mean, emacs has a mode for everything 21:06:11 Even the butterfly thing 21:06:20 lol 21:06:31 Guthur: I meant that my students tried to over-engineer it and make it a general-purpuse gadget for displaying trees, one example of which would be a file hierarchy. 21:06:44 *beach* might catch up eventually. 21:06:52 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 21:06:53 ziga`: it will be rather interesting code, I guess... Especially since I plan on implementing big part of it on .NET side 21:07:38 I think the easiest thing is to first implement the file selector. Once the tree display is working, then port the selector to use that. 21:07:46 Sikander: I suggest mcclim-truetype over mcclim-freetype if possible, because it is pure CL. 21:07:48 if required 21:08:11 beach: Lemme try it 21:08:41 ziga`: I would be delighted to have a McCLIM interface to Maxima. 21:09:47 *beach* thinks he might have caught up. Whew! 21:11:04 -!- ak701 [n=ak70@195.158.89.236] has left #lisp 21:11:10 beach: mcclim-truetype looks fuzzier 21:11:27 Really? 21:11:41 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["restarting emacs"] 21:11:47 well, it does on my machine... 21:11:50 does it use zpb-ttf ? 21:11:59 Sikander: I imagine that it could be true, given that the rendering has been re-implemented in CL. 21:12:08 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has left #lisp 21:12:13 xristos: I used to know, but I no longer do. 21:12:26 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:12:54 Did nyef do mcclim-truetype? 21:13:19 It might be useful to give him examples of differences in rendering quality. 21:13:20 -!- lletres_ [n=nieve@pool-96-246-58-167.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:14:03 Personally, I am advocating a McCLIM-specific rendering system, but before we can get enough good fonts, we would have to import existing truetype fonts. 21:15:22 you could just use freetype, it's installed by default on linux and osx 21:15:32 Wish Granted 21:15:32 Krystof, memo from deepfire: clisp build was successful. 21:15:49 (there is alternate code in mcclim that "just uses freetype") 21:16:15 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 21:16:22 Krystof: i know 21:16:28 xristos: The thing is that freetype is not good enough. Here is an example of a font (which is definitely not good enough) that has been rendered in a system that I considere good enough: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/font.png 21:17:30 is that freetype ? 21:17:37 beach: that's probably freetype 21:17:43 it could use gamma correction 21:17:46 Sikander: it is? 21:17:51 (which you can add yourself) 21:18:08 I'm not sure, but I think so... Isn't it? 21:18:15 it looks like crap though 21:18:30 freetype can give you extremely high quality glyphs 21:18:39 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.72.35] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:18:42 No, it's not freetype 21:18:44 Sikander: do you mean http://...font.png? 21:19:02 beach: yeah, sorry, I was asleep for a moment 21:19:19 Sikander: That was rendered using my own Metafont-embedded-language system. 21:19:26 beach: Have you ever looked at the difference of mcclim-freetype and mcclim-truetype 21:19:38 Sikander: not really, no. 21:19:48 beach: what font are you using in Emacs? 21:19:56 does anyone know if TTF character size should be in anyway standard 21:20:04 xristos: The key word here is "can". In fact it doesn't seem to do that. 21:20:07 beach: I'd suggest you to take a look at clim-listener when using first freetype and then truetype 21:20:28 p_l: Depends on the platform and the application, especially the application. 21:20:41 beach: it depends on the configuration 21:20:47 I agree with beach, though, that with freetype, it can go awfully wrong. 21:21:00 if you disable the bytecode interpreter and use greyscale aa on lcd screens it looks like crap 21:21:25 beach: I was interested in the one from screenshot http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/font.png 21:21:31 lletres_ [n=nieve@pool-173-52-11-147.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:33 xristos: I doubt it. The freetype rendering algorithm is legally prevented from using the hints that make the rendering (somewhat) acceptable. 21:21:37 the one in Slime buffers, not the one in mcclim window 21:21:49 beach: it is a compile time option 21:22:03 xristos: to violate the law? Interesting! 21:22:07 don't know if it's enabled for most linux distros 21:22:16 p_l: That's a font of my own design (that was just qualified as crap). 21:22:19 beach: many people don't consider software patents 'the law' 21:22:49 certainly don't exist here 21:22:51 beach: lots of stuff that is illegal in one area is available as a compile time option for those folks where it isn't illegal 21:22:54 beach: I think the rendering was qualified as crap, not the font... 21:23:02 xristos: probably because many people live in places where they are just scraps of paper worth around the same as toilet paper? 21:23:24 beach: But I don't think the rendering in that png is crap. For that font at least, it looks better than mcclim-truetype. 21:23:32 Sikander: Oh, that would be devastating. I can accept my being a bad font designer, but the rendering was supposed to be impeccable. 21:24:34 beach: As I said, I think it looks better than mcclim-truetype. It's less fuzzy. Is it for TTF? 21:24:41 Younder [n=jthing@244.159.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:24:59 Well, I'm afraid I can't use illegal stuff, still sleep at night, and at the same time give a credible lecture to my students the next day. 21:25:19 beach: i said it looks like crap here because: it could use some gamma correction, it is not rendered for lcd and i'm on lcd 21:25:35 beach: ah, you have a conco.. conscin... dammit, what is that thing called again?! 21:25:38 ;) 21:25:46 xristos: ah, I see. 21:26:27 beach: btw, on LCDs, freetype changes a lot when you make it use subpixel rendering correctly 21:26:30 Sikander: remind me what TTF is? This font was designed using an embedded Metafont-like language, and what you see is how it got rendered in a McCLIM application. 21:26:32 beach: can your metafont-embedded-language system read/translate ttfs? 21:26:40 beach: true-type fonts 21:27:41 beach: what sort of problem were you planning to solve with your rational simplex, btw? And how important are *exact* corner solutions? 21:27:43 or can it read/import/translate postscript fonts (probably much easier) 21:27:43 TTF  TrueType Font, TTC  TrueType font Collection, OTF  Open Type Font 21:27:58 Sikander: No, it can't at the moment because I am not that interested in that functionality (I am a researcher), but that would be an interesting, and probably essential, feature to have. I don't think it would be hard to implement, but it would have the same legal problems as mcclim-truetype. 21:28:03 -!- demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-207-144.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:28:26 ah 21:28:50 beach: btw, effect of few minutes of playing with freetype/xft2 config - http://plasek.rootnode.net/hinted-vs-unhinted-consolas.jpg 21:28:54 I don't understand. If the font contains hinting information, why is the renderer not allowed to use that information?! 21:29:11 Sikander: the bytecode interpreter part is covered by Adobe patents 21:29:31 pkhuong: The problem I am solving is spacing between chords in Gsharp. I want to avoid accumulated errors (and thus badly spaced chords) by using an exact algorithm. 21:30:18 p_l: the one on the left uses the patented hinting ? 21:30:43 So I guess that the patent is only valid in the US? 21:31:04 Why else would there be a compile-time option? 21:31:10 impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442135.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:31:15 apparently a lot of rendering systems aren't using as many hints now, according wiki anyway 21:31:41 p_l i think its an apple patent not adobe 21:31:53 lletres__ [n=nieve@pool-96-246-58-140.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:00 So would running the converter to produce Robert-powered font files in a patent-free country liberate the fonts? 21:32:03 xristos: the one on the right uses freetype defaults, the one on the right uses subpixel rendering and hinting 21:32:17 *left uses subpixel 21:32:21 -!- lletres [n=nieve@pool-173-52-146-212.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:32:25 p_l: The `a' looks horrible in that example. 21:33:05 it's a jpg 21:33:10 so? 21:33:16 so, it's full of artifacts 21:33:20 compression 21:33:32 jpeg compression destroys straight lines 21:33:39 beach: sure, it's not perfect yet... I think I either haven't configured that well, or it's a flaw in freetype 21:33:41 look up close and see speckles 21:33:58 p_l: you should have made a png :) 21:34:09 it is of course probable that the a is still ugly, but 21:34:15 oh well, I just dumped the fonts from Vista :P 21:34:17 p_l: And that's exactly the reason why I started working on a different system. I think it is hard to get rid of flaws of freetype (and of truetype as well). 21:34:29 (for what it's worth, I hate subpixel rendering and the coloured fringes that that causes) 21:34:45 Krystof: then you have incorrectly configured it 21:34:47 Krystof: I am arriving at the same conclusion. 21:35:02 (or huge pixels) 21:35:02 p_l: or perhaps I am more sensitive to colours than you are? 21:35:12 didi [n=user@189-68-56-226.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 21:35:21 I mean, just a possibility 21:35:50 (why do people assume that everyone's visual perception is the same?) 21:36:11 p_l: Don't be so sure. Recently I had a screen that appeared to have a wider space between full pixels than between the RGB components within a pixel. The result of subpixel rendering was just awful. 21:36:39 beach: It would be interesting if you would release your system with a good set of fonts and a way to import, say, ps or otf fonts 21:36:54 Sikander: I agree :) 21:37:06 Well, get coding then! ;) 21:37:25 Sikander: You are pretty funny! 21:37:30 Krystof: I'd rather dump it on differences between panels etc. Visual perception is tricky and I tend not to believe the usual tests. That reminds me, that I still haven't done that fMRI regarding my visual cortex :/ 21:37:36 If we can also get aa for drawing in mcclim, that would be the bees knees! 21:37:49 beach: I try to be, but usually fail 21:38:02 This time, you made it :) 21:38:05 ok i just rendered some strings with freetype (bytecode interpeter on) 21:38:14 http://www.suspicious.org/~night/aa.png 21:38:20 -!- fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:38:23 http://www.suspicious.org/~night/ft.png 21:38:38 p_l: ok, for instance, I almost certainly perceive sound differently from you 21:39:07 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:39:14 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@80.216.63.207] has joined #lisp 21:39:20 xristos: Looks pretty good, except for the small pointsizes in http://www.suspicious.org/~night/ft.png 21:39:36 Krystof: Of course you do. I might have jumped to conclusions earlier, though (little sleep does that to you). 21:40:41 Krystof: as for colours... standard test on colour vision (dot patterns) gives me complete 0, despite the fact that I can separate all of the dots on color ;-) 21:41:15 lletres [n=nieve@pool-96-246-60-112.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:44 *p_l* is pretty sure something isn't right somewhere further in visual cortex 21:42:11 deepfire: what about my mips patch? Are you able to test it, or should I try to find someone else? 21:42:38 -!- lletres_ [n=nieve@pool-173-52-11-147.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:43:30 alexbobp [n=alex@66.112.249.119] has joined #lisp 21:43:51 xristos: it is easy to render large fonts. The problem is with the small ones. 21:44:11 -!- Houl [n=Miranda@unaffiliated/houl] has left #lisp 21:44:14 Houl [n=Miranda@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 21:44:25 try doing your aa.png example with a fifth of the size. 21:44:35 -!- Houl [n=Miranda@unaffiliated/houl] has left #lisp 21:44:51 beach: look at xristos' http://www.suspicious.org/~night/ft.png 21:44:56 small fonts suck 21:44:59 Sorry, saw it later. 21:45:13 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:45:23 seriously, dude, your renderer seems to do better (at least, with your font) 21:45:47 *Sikander* means beach when he said dude. 21:46:31 -!- cads [n=max@c-24-30-55-172.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:46:31 verdana has pretty good hints, but you'll notice that on the smallest size even mono is completely unreadable 21:46:33 but I think freetype does a better job with normal-sized fonts than truetype. 21:46:37 Sikander: Exactly, and that's because it was designed that way, and it can do that because it has the power of a general-purpose language like CL. 21:46:56 beach: So actually, I wasn't trying to be funny... 21:47:06 :( 21:47:10 Oh, I know. 21:47:32 Apropos font rendering, did you people see this: http://www.antigrain.com/research/font_rasterization/index.html 21:47:54 My point is, it is difficult to render small fonts, and the attempts I have seen (based on TrueType) fail miserably. 21:48:18 beach: Have you studied typography, or type-setting? 21:48:20 Krystof, if you have committed it, it was already tested.. 21:48:40 Sikander: I have read the works of Knuth, so yes, to some extent. 21:48:49 Krystof, (I assumed you did) 21:49:09 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:40 deepfire: Yes, I have read that. 21:51:04 beach: well, that and the png is good enough to convince me you know what you're doing... 21:51:18 So my point is, if we can get a superior font-rendering system into McCLIM, that might be a selling point. And in either case, we need a better font-rendering system than what we currently have. 21:51:19 deepfire: sorry, I haven't committed it, because I'm waiting for a test :-) 21:51:27 Sikander: Thanks! 21:51:44 I'm a bit unwilling to put into CVS something that's never been tested by anyone 21:51:45 Krystof, where do I get the patch? 21:51:46 beach: Then again, my opinion doesn't count for much :( 21:52:04 http://paste.lisp.org/display/89249 21:52:05 Sikander: It's another vote :) 21:52:21 beach: Will you put it in Experimental in mcclim? 21:52:30 I'd be willing to use it 21:52:56 -!- lletres__ [n=nieve@pool-96-246-58-140.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:53:34 we also need a font 21:53:44 beach: it can load metafonts (mf), right? 21:53:47 (or code to read fonts) 21:53:54 There's the famous cm 21:54:36 Sikander: Nope! I designed an embedded language very close to MF, but it is not as potent as MF at the moment. 21:54:52 If it can read metafonts, I remember there was a way to convert ttf 21:54:54 dammit 21:55:11 Sikander: But there is a greater problem. Knuth's fonts weren't designed for low-resolution devices. 21:56:09 Sikander: they might render as OK as what we currently get with TrueType. 21:56:30 Krystof, fired up the build of 1.0.32 with that change applied. 21:56:50 beach: it's worth to try. 21:57:03 beach: what type of features of MF are missing? 21:57:18 Sikander: Definitely worth trying. 21:57:28 plutonas` [n=plutonas@port-92-195-4-68.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:58:05 At first, we would just need a sans-serif and and a monospace font anyway. 21:58:10 Sikander: The entire equation-resolution features is missing. My system is basically still an imperative programming language with Knuth's path expressions. 21:58:30 Sikander: Got the Sans, need the monospace. 21:59:02 beach: Is the language nice? I mean, is it easy to design/write new fonts? 21:59:07 deepfire: thanks! 21:59:07 Sikander: it is not that complicated. I figure about 10-30 minutes per glyph depending on the complexity. 21:59:24 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@80.216.63.207] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:59:30 Sikander: It is basically Metafont with a more Lisp-y syntax. 21:59:45 beach: seems good 22:00:03 Krystof, you can have an account on that machine, if you don't mind sshing through my gateway, btw. 22:00:04 Sikander: It was designed to be good :) 22:00:29 deepfire: let's see how much I regret having devoted the whole day to sbcl rather than half a day as was my plan 22:01:02 (So, actually, two accounts..) 22:01:12 pepone [n=pepone@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 22:01:41 beach: Even though the equation-resolution features are missing, the design was flexible enough for them to be added at a later time, I guess? 22:02:41 Sikander: I don't really use those features. It is enough to use imperative constructs to compute exact placement of control points based on resolution. 22:03:08 Sikander: If you are interested in trying it out, I can make the sources available. I already posted them at some point, but I forgot the URL. 22:03:34 beach: I'm really interested. Why don't you put them in mcclim/Experimental? 22:04:10 Sikander: Oh, that would be very pretentious on my part. But hold on, I'll dig them up for you. 22:04:20 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-123-9.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:04:39 beach: Does this mean that you could theoretically use it as a drawing backend for mcclim as well? It would be awesome to have aa drawing in mcclim 22:04:53 something to match awesome rendering of fonts 22:05:54 Sikander: Glad you asked! It turns out McCLIM is modular enough that the entire thing was in fact integrated into McCLIM and you can use it on a per-pane basis to render your text if you like. 22:05:56 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:06:28 Sikander: The step to using it for all McCLIM text rendering is very small. 22:06:46 beach: Well, now I'm _really_ interested 22:07:22 Sikander: well, that's CLIM/McCLIM for you :) 22:07:22 22:08:58 It's weird how an interface manager that's 25 years old can be better than anything that came after it. Well, maybe not, considering lisp and all... 22:09:15 Sikander: Exactly! 22:09:18 mcclim just needs a bit more love :) 22:10:19 *Sikander* gets more excited about (Mc)CLIM after each of Kenny Tilton's rants. 22:10:20 I agree! And fewer Kennys! 22:10:47 if someone would port mcclim to the major native widgetsets 22:10:54 that would be pretty awesome 22:11:01 I have clim-listener running, woohoo :) 22:11:16 gtkairo is somewhat working 22:11:17 ziga`: congrats 22:11:59 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has quit [] 22:12:14 ziga`: did you try the demo's yet 22:12:30 what does McCLIM for Linux run on? 22:12:52 also, I think I've heard an answer for this before but I forget -- is there an ncurses backend? 22:13:07 Adlai: I was considering making that. 22:13:16 But don't know how to implement the drawing 22:13:17 CLX 22:13:29 is anyone a web coder? 22:13:30 Sikander: I've tried the calculator so far hehe. 22:13:34 stassats: ok, that makes sense 22:13:37 I am a web coder short of an excellent mcclim backend 22:13:45 -!- LandLubber is now known as Elench 22:14:10 ziga`: when you (require :clim-examples) then you can (clim-demo::demodemo) and try them all 22:14:18 (HTML5 Canvas now provides almost enough to implement mcclim; it's just a little bit short on text bounding rectangles, but what's a little stuff outside a bounding rectangle between friends?) 22:14:38 Sikander: well, it might not be all of CLIM, but it'd be nice to have something like the IRC client or climacs in the terminal 22:14:40 helge_ [n=helge@81.175.2.164] has joined #lisp 22:14:59 (I agree that an ncurses backend would be fun too) 22:15:14 I might reconsider it. 22:15:36 So a not-fully-working backend would be ok? Without drawing etc? 22:16:09 well, it'd be OK as long as the CLIM programs using it don't use drawing :) 22:16:12 Sikander: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/McCLIM-Framebuffer/ It's a bit chaotic, but it should work. 22:16:35 ziga`: The listener is awesome. 22:16:37 yes, but you might need to provide native widgets for things like menus (and work out how to instantiate frames with those; I think it's a matter of sticking a with-native-look-and-feel somewhere, but I'm not sure where 22:17:04 Adlai: No ncurses backend that I know of. 22:17:14 *beach* is trying to catch up again. 22:17:22 Sikander: mcclim implements a bunch of widgets "portably", but it does so assuming that things like drawing rectangles work. You would need to override those portable widgets 22:17:39 ziga`: The listener is in fact so awesome, that you can just write packages that you run right inside the listener, instead of writing a new application 22:17:45 Sikander: You would just not implement the graphics draing functions. 22:18:06 Krystof: I know, I already looked into that 22:18:28 ok,good 22:19:04 -!- robsynnott [n=robertsy@89.100.143.184] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:19:04 beach: Thanks for the url, I'll have a look at it 22:19:11 robsynnott [n=robertsy@89.100.143.184] has joined #lisp 22:19:15 Sikander: No problem! 22:19:32 *beach* takes a break! 22:19:32 Sikander: nice demos! 22:19:56 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 22:20:15 ziga`: I learnt a lot from the addressbook example, on how presentations work 22:21:41 ferada` [n=user@e179239139.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:21:56 -!- morphling [n=stefan@89.15.131.20] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:22:10 Sikander: on mac os x, text fields are a bit 'blinky' - when each character is entered, the vhole contents blinks - is this a consequence of a bad X implementation on Mac OS X or is this normal? 22:22:11 -!- ferada` [n=user@e179239139.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:22:20 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:22:35 ziga`: flicker is the word 22:22:42 flicker right 22:23:54 ziga`: I'm on linux and don't have that problem. Maybe it's your x server 22:24:04 manuel__ [n=manuel@pD9E6EE61.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:08 ziga`: Do you have that problem with other x programs? 22:24:09 probably 22:24:19 I run none :) 22:24:31 x11 has plenty of bugs on osx 22:24:39 and it is not exactly supported 22:24:46 does this problem exist in the listener or just in one of the demos 22:25:07 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:25:09 when i last tried mcclim using clx it would flicker all the time 22:25:36 but the deal breaker is that it would crash every 2 minutes 22:25:53 maybe it improved on the stability front 22:25:56 Sikander: it's in both - demos an the listener.. the input fields flickers.. 22:26:17 probably a mac os x thing 22:26:18 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:26:33 ziga`: So in the listener, the whole screen flickers? That's annoying... 22:26:45 Sikander: no, only the entered comand 22:27:05 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:27:08 the editable field that currently modified 22:27:21 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 22:28:11 I guess that parts that are redrawn flicker 22:28:16 ziga`: Still annoying. You don't use any other X applications? Xterm? *shudder*Emacs*shudder*? 22:28:58 xristos: o_O 22:29:02 francogrex [n=user@91.181.248.5] has joined #lisp 22:29:11 Sikander: i can give it a shot again if you like 22:29:19 Sikander: Xterm flickers perhaps a little bit compared to a native Terminal.app.. Emacs 23 has Cocoa support thank god :) 22:29:28 xristos: how long ago was that?! 22:29:41 2-3 months 22:29:43 -!- ferada [n=user@85.179.237.188] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:30:11 xristos: Don't get me wrong, I know _nothing_ of macosx nor cocoa, nor anything remotely having to do with clx on macosx 22:30:17 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 22:30:21 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:35 So I can tell you that _that_ is not the way it should work. 22:30:41 I have a fairly old Mac OS X (tiger), perhaps it's better in newer ones.. however I think apple doesn't have much interest for a better X 22:30:50 Anyone interested in making a cocoa backend for mcclim? :) 22:31:19 make objc bridge for sbcl first ;p 22:31:27 Sikander: what is this beagle backend? 22:32:23 ziga`: Wait, that should work for openmcl on cocoa... 22:32:47 yeah it's from 2006 it seems 22:33:00 no 2008 sorry 22:33:36 I don't know how good/up-to-date it is. You could try it and see... 22:34:19 I'll look into it.. 22:34:22 so how do i get clbuild to start mcclim with mcclim-truetype 22:35:01 xristos: from the darcs repo... (d'oh, why darcs!) 22:35:13 eh ? 22:35:37 ./clbuild run listener brings up the listener without antialiased fonts 22:35:43 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:36:02 xristos: oh sorry, I thought you wanted to get clbuild 22:36:10 xristos: since you're into stealing factor stuff you could port its cocoa bridge to sbcl :) 22:36:35 its kind of crappy though, the openmcl cocoa bridge seems to be better 22:36:44 slava: it's kind of minimal 22:36:51 but there is objc for sbcl already 22:36:55 xristos: I just run the listener from the repl: (require :mcclim-truetype) (require :clim-listener) (clim-listener:run-listener) 22:37:15 problem was struct as values in cffi i think 22:37:24 xristos: But IMO mcclim-freetype does a better job 22:37:51 xristos: struct value returns is another thing you can steal from us then :) 22:38:22 yeah 22:38:30 there is just so much factor code i could port 22:38:34 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.181.248.5] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:38:53 i guess i could use factor instead of cl 22:39:01 since you have the things i'm interested in covered 22:39:08 but i can't do that 22:39:31 make a CL compiler :) 22:39:44 I have yet to see a CL compiler target a non-CL VM and get good performance 22:39:53 ABCL might get there eventually but I'm not holding my breath 22:40:02 slava: x86 :) 22:40:06 you need a lot of low level CL-specific tricks 22:40:18 Adlai: the thing is, even llvm might be a challenging target 22:41:53 So I never really understood this: when sbcl compiles functions, it still runs it inside its virtual machine, but when a C program compiles, it runs in the os. Is this because the os acts like a C virtual machine? 22:42:04 Sikander: 'virtual machine' is a meaningless term 22:42:05 why do you think VMs are more challenging than native compilers? 22:42:28 Adlai: usually a language runtime exposes a limited set of semantics and there might be an impedance mismatch 22:42:30 Sikander: C effectively runs in a very simple virtual machine provided by the OS and libraries. 22:42:43 for example, sbcl's gc has optimal space usage for cons cells, without a header 22:42:48 Consider the memory allocation facilities (malloc/free or maybe even a GC) and the system calls. 22:42:50 "a non-CL VM" ??? 22:43:00 whereas any CL on the JVM will necessarily have more overhead for each cons 22:43:09 now larger conses are not the end of the world, but its just one example 22:43:15 Sikander: SBCL compiles functions to machine code. When you call a function, the CPU just executes that code directly 22:43:47 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 22:43:53 slava: that design choice constrains many other decisions 22:44:21 slava: true, I guess that while you could take advantage of some of the VM's structures, conses are very common in lisp but I don't know of any non-lisp VM that has them 22:44:21 with LLVM, I believe the more complex calling conventions (tail calls, efficient keyword/optional/rest args) might be a challenge because its C ABI-centric 22:44:23 So this is then what I don't understand: Why are sbcl cores so large? I always read the same explanation, but don't understand it. 22:44:32 Sikander: large relative to what? 22:44:39 Sikander: they contain a ton of stuff, like the entire compiler, debuggers, etc. 22:44:43 Sikander: they include the compiler 22:44:48 large relative to compiled c programs 22:44:49 pkhuong: true 22:44:58 a compiled C program is just a bunch of executable code 22:44:59 slava, LLVM used to support tail-calls, then the support was broken, then... what's the current status? 22:45:04 Sikander: if you statically link a C program with libgcc and all sorts of other stuff, the binary will be huge too. 22:45:14 Ok 22:45:17 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:45:17 Sikander: and it's just the code that you wrote 22:45:28 Sikander: when you dump an SBCL core, it's your code + SBCL 22:45:34 Sikander: The problem is that SBCL does not have a "tree shaker", a tool for removing parts of the image that are not used... like the copiler. 22:45:49 So why would I need the entire compiler/debugger? Is there a way to remove that from the core if I just want a specific prigram? 22:45:51 Aha 22:45:51 a lot of your code probably uses parts of SBCL too (the GC, the condition system, CLOS, etc) 22:45:54 there's more than that. Cores have a lot of noise: x86 machine code doesn't usually compress that well. 22:45:57 yeah, its effectively statically linked, but you can't remove the unused parts either 22:46:14 pkhuong: I think most of the core is data, not code, though 22:46:25 pkhuong: pointers tend to compress well 22:46:44 x86 machine code compress well into the source code that generated it. 22:46:45 SBCL does seem to have lots of data in the compiler 22:47:02 Don't get me wrong, I don't care that it's 20M or so, but I was just wondering why. 22:47:08 languages like lisp tend to retain a lot of information for debugging and cross referencing, more than C compilers 22:47:11 with the advantage that the same source code also expands to ppc, arm, etc. code 22:47:14 ie, a lot of metadata about how to compile various instructions, how expesnive they are, etc. 22:47:23 Sikander: some lisp impls can deliver small images, like lispworks 22:47:32 or ecl, thinlisp, etc. 22:47:40 Fare: thinlisp? 22:47:57 does ECL do tree-shaking for its compiled programs? 22:48:06 Is there no way to remove the debugger and strip in sbcl? I understand that this would negate some of the awesomeness of lisp, since an error is fatal, but still 22:48:09 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:48:12 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:48:13 How small do LW images actually get, anyway? (pre-compression). 22:48:19 Adlai: it doesn't need to 22:48:20 factor images are even larger because it keeps the sexp form of all definitions around in addition to machine code 22:48:29 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@84.46.52.166] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:48:52 stassats: aren't they still large though? (compared to non-CL programs) 22:49:04 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-59-8.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:49:11 I remember hearing that ECL executables are about the same size as clisp executables 22:49:16 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has left #lisp 22:50:46 In any case, with cheap terabyte hard drives, i don't really care much about the size of an sbcl image anyway. 22:51:24 I sort of do. Even without a tree shaker, bziped images would be a cool hack. 22:51:42 Sikander: well, CPU caches are still not very large. 22:52:14 And if you have to run eight 20MiB binaries, it really adds up. 22:52:19 Well, at the moment, I'm not doing any intensive things like heavy calculations/simulations 22:52:20 Athas: and that's related to image size how? 22:52:29 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 22:52:39 So could you theoretically run one lisp and all your programs inside that lisp? 22:52:40 pkhuong: well, if you had a 20MB CPU cache... :D 22:53:18 ziga`` [n=user@89.142.53.32] has joined #lisp 22:53:27 lispm [n=joswig@e177156105.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:53:42 Sikander: yes, that's possible (and what I usually do). 22:53:54 Athas: So you use threads? 22:54:05 Sikander, lzma the core .. compression takes a while .. decompression is almost instant .. just keep the compressed version around after decompressing and executing -- when exiting the app. you delete the uncompressed temp. executable core .. i think it's like 20mb -> 4mb or so 22:54:12 Yes. So the Lisp implementation has to be sufficiently robust. 22:54:22 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:54:25 my sbcl image is 188K /usr/bin/sbcl 22:54:35 lletres, that's not your sbcl image 22:54:36 lletres: that's the runtime. 22:54:47 uh? 22:54:55 lletres: that's just the runtime. Enough to load the image in memory, jump into it and to provide miscellaneous OS access. 22:54:56 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:01 lletres, /usr/lib/sbcl/sbcl.core 22:55:01 Athas: Which lisp are you using? 22:55:20 Sikander: SBCL. 22:55:42 Athas: So how do you run multiple programs from one lisp? 22:55:46 43M /usr/lib64/sbcl/sbcl.core 22:55:49 oh ok 22:56:50 Sikander: with threads... 22:57:03 Sikander: I just load the programs into the same image and spawn new threads. 22:57:18 Sikander, what do you mean "run multiple programs"? 22:57:24 What I mean is, is there a simple way to do it? Or do you just use the "low level" sbcl interface 22:58:03 Mostly I just connect to the SBCL process with SLIME and control it from there. 22:58:04 Fare: I mean different programs, like the listener, some other clim application, some other repl etc. 22:58:21 ah, slime... 22:58:38 how do i use clim debugger instead of sbcl one 22:58:41 You could use the CLIM Listener too, if you want. 22:58:43 I guess that when you do that, You only have one core in memory, no? 22:58:45 and the same for inspector 22:58:46 more robust is to run multiple processes 22:58:50 one per activity 22:59:00 gcc is not that far off and without half of the stuff that comes with --> du -sh 32M /usr/lib64/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.3.4/ 22:59:04 but then you are running multiple cores 22:59:09 or not? 22:59:12 xristos: you probably don't want to do that (the debugger), but: (setf *debugger-hook* #'clim-debugger:debugger) (setf sb-ext:*invoke-debugger-hook* #'clim-debugger:debugger). 22:59:35 Athas: why not ? 22:59:37 xristos: no idea about the inspector, I usually just call (clouseau:inspect ...) manually. 22:59:43 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:58 xristos: the CLIM debugger is not very nice compared to the one in SLIME. And you're in for a ride if it has a bug. 23:00:12 ok 23:00:14 Fare: Running one lisp process per activity will load the core multiple times in memory, no? 23:00:22 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219.89.105.20] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:00:42 *lletres* has 8GB of ram 23:00:59 Sikander: yes, but it also means that if one crashes, the others are fine 23:01:43 Sikander: not necessarily. mmap can share pages as copy on write. With the generational GC, you can hope for a nice amount of sharing. 23:02:05 pkhuong: even between processes? 23:02:13 really? 23:02:22 -!- quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:02:32 it makes sense, though... I just hadn't expected that to be possible. 23:02:50 when running multiple processes and one activity per process, does the problem that Athas mentioned, of small CPU caches still exist? 23:03:46 *Sikander* likes programming, but doesn't know much about the low-level stuff. 23:03:50 power6 has 32 MB L3 cache 23:04:02 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:04:10 -!- plutonas` [n=plutonas@port-92-195-4-68.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:04:28 intel and amd are getting there as well 23:04:32 Sikander: they're mostly orthogonal issues, except for some things like large objects taking a lot of space, but efforts to make the core smaller wouldn't usually change the way objects are represetned. 23:06:29 Basically, I'm just wondering if there is a difference between running twenty lisps for twenty activities, and running twenty images/binaries each doing different things. 23:06:46 and the same thing for C programs 23:07:10 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 23:07:18 Obviously, the C programs have shared objects. 23:07:29 as I understand, the twenty lisps can be "shared" as well 23:07:49 will the twenty images also share their common parts? 23:08:13 to a point. 23:08:36 to the same point as C programs sharing libc? 23:09:22 no, because the shared part is more mutable in CL. 23:09:35 -!- ziga` [n=user@BSN-142-123-220.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:09:44 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.58.146] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:09:58 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:10:10 and you have to tweak the GC a bit to make sure it never GCs the common data. 23:11:15 I don't quite understand this. Are functions also gc'd? 23:11:19 do any CL implementations have a GC written in CL? 23:11:24 everything is GCed. 23:11:27 Sikander: of course 23:11:37 ... 23:11:45 Sikander: usually, they aren't, because a symbol's symbol-function points to them 23:12:02 Ok, that makes sense 23:12:12 but if you had a function which was inlined everywhere, and then you fmakunbounded the symbol, destroying the last reference, it'd get GCed. 23:12:24 yeah, not quite, on SBCL. 23:12:30 Yes, that I understand 23:12:38 actually, I guess it wouldn't matter if it was inlined or not 23:12:39 (what Adlai said) 23:12:55 because calls to the function would still reference the symbol, rather than the function object itself 23:13:08 (I think) 23:13:29 But functions that are defined as toplevel expressions cannot get gc'd, because they're bound until the lisp exits. 23:13:42 no 23:14:02 only the last three interactively entered forms matter 23:14:23 Wait, what?! 23:14:28 there are a few special variables for accessing them 23:14:31 clhs * 23:14:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_st.htm 23:14:39 Oh, right. 23:14:46 BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:09 But a standard library equivalent to libc wouldn't get gc'ed since it will be bound until all lisps exit. 23:15:25 so the gc cannot collect that common data. 23:15:37 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:15:44 well, if one lisp process didn't reference it anymore, that process's GC would need to know that it was shared data that it shouldn't try to collect 23:16:06 otherwise, one process could GC code or data that other processes still relied upon 23:16:07 crap, right. 23:16:09 I see 23:16:09 copying GC also moves data 23:16:24 yeah, heap compaction 23:17:08 Ok ok, I think I have a firmer grasp now on the whole compiled C programs vs lisp images 23:17:15 thanks 23:17:25 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:17:30 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 23:17:31 now consider ECL, it compiles down to C 23:17:39 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.254.156] has joined #lisp 23:18:03 So you don't have the debugger any more when it runs? 23:18:22 which means errors are fatal? 23:18:54 Sikander, no, the debugger is there, just the C compiler might be not. 23:18:56 why do you think so right away? 23:19:08 *Adlai* should get ECL working at some point 23:19:19 Sikander, the bytecodes compiler is also always still there (in the recent versions). 23:19:40 Adlai - on what system? 23:19:40 soo... 23:20:10 -!- myrkraverk` is now known as myrkraverk 23:20:15 what's "different" from ecl compiling down to c and then gcc'ing as compared to sbcl, aside from the obvious c step? 23:20:41 ayrnieu: I tried building it on Ubuntu, but it was a linking nightmare so I gave up... I'm on Arch now 23:21:09 Sikander: the different semantics of C and Lisp mean different strategies are available 23:21:15 Sikander: c is limited 23:21:52 Sikander, the only thing that comes up to my mind is ECL's inability to dump cores. 23:22:15 Xach: strategies in optimisation you mean? 23:22:20 I can attest to its ability to dump ecl.core ; it can also dump images. 23:22:49 deepfire: but wouldn't the fact that you can compile the c to an elf binary be enough not to require the cores any more? 23:23:28 *Sikander* is sorry for asking so many questions... 23:23:28 ayrnieu, hmm, I seem to remember asking Juanjo about that, he pretty flatly said it's impossible to have instantly available cores, like most lisps do. 23:23:50 Sikander: no, it's not enough 23:24:11 what's the benefit of a core vs a binary? 23:24:19 Sikander: don't be sorry, many of these issues are things that I wonder about but haven't bothered asking, so it's nice that there's a discussion now that I can listen in on. 23:24:44 -!- ziga`` [n=user@89.142.53.32] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:24:44 ayrnieu, let me dredge it up, though.. 23:25:13 even C needs a "core", libc 23:25:14 *Adlai* puts prepositions where the end of his sentence is at! 23:26:13 so, ecl has libecl 23:26:26 stassats: I thought with "it's not enough" you mean that compiling to an elf was not enough to not require a core any more. But you have a core in the form of libc 23:26:31 or libecl 23:26:36 (whatever) 23:27:06 why then would you still need to dump cores/make images? 23:27:10 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:36 to have a single executable binary 23:28:09 *Sikander* has never felt the need for a single executable binary. 23:28:13 lletres_ [n=nieve@pool-173-52-9-111.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:15 Sikander: one obstacle to compiling lisp to an elf binary is that you can't share the data segment, since most lisps don't distinguish between read only heap and dynamic heap 23:28:17 if you had a binary that was dynamically linked to libecl, you couldn't distribute it without libecl as well 23:28:23 Isn't this only an issue in special cases? 23:28:35 Sikander: all the runtime compiler meta-data is represented as mutable objects intermingled with your application state 23:28:51 Sikander: so every process requires its own copy even fi you're running several copies of the exact same app 23:29:20 ok, who's interested in producing a CL compiler targetting LLVM? 23:29:23 slava: wouldn't a possible solution be to extend CL's semantics to include immutable data? 23:29:24 Sikander: so you can bundle the core into the elf binary but at that point you're not seeing any benefit versus the traditional approach of having a runtime load the image 23:29:47 Adlai: yeah, but then stuff like EVAL and LOAD wouldn't work 23:29:50 Adlai: its a tradeoff I guess 23:29:59 Adlai: either interactive development or shared libraries 23:30:00 CL package is immutable 23:30:00 one that would be friendly to proper tail-calls and CPS. 23:30:01 why would EVAL and LOAD not work? 23:30:12 '(a b c) is immutable 23:30:13 Adlai, missing compiler? 23:30:18 stassats: if your implementation is clever enough to partition things in a really smart way, then it might work 23:30:18 dude! 23:30:20 I'm not saying that the entire "heap image" needs to be immutable 23:30:24 how's Hamburg? 23:30:30 fine 23:30:37 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:30:44 how is cambridge? 23:30:45 just that (as stassats said above) the CL package functions would be immutable 23:30:55 Adlai: that could work, then. you'd need a clever design which knows what it can safely put in read only space, and then this can be mmaped in read only and shared between processes 23:30:57 all literal data is immutable 23:31:17 not really -- you are ALLOWED to shoot yourself in the foot 23:31:23 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.246.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:31:24 no 23:31:25 -!- ans [n=ans@84.41.90.82] has left #lisp 23:31:25 I don't believe anyone really does this in a way that still works with interactive compilation 23:31:31 ans [n=ans@84.41.90.82] has joined #lisp 23:31:33 and the implementation is not guaranteed to stop you 23:31:42 but the behavior is undefined also 23:31:48 so an implementation could make literals read only, right? 23:31:52 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:31:52 it can fly demons out of your nose 23:31:57 if you compile a file, load it and save it the compiler can assume that the data is immutable 23:31:58 slava, some do 23:31:59 but immutable data is still heap compacted, right? 23:32:01 in any case, CL is dead, a futuristic lisp with all of these features shouldn't try to be compatible with CL 23:32:02 Fare: the implementation could also throw you in the debugger for trying to write in a read-only page. 23:32:04 slava: well, if you could declare data (including compiled functions) as immutable, then you could, for example, just declare all the compiler metadata as immutable. 23:32:04 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:32:17 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:17 pkhuong, that would be TOO helpful 23:32:32 the compiler is allowed to think literal data is immutable 23:32:38 Adlai: ideally, data would be immutable where possible, but if in your REPL you reload a source file that changed, it would unmap that code and map in a new compiled copy 23:32:39 that's part of the standard 23:32:43 slava, a futuristic lisp might have a CL compatibility mode 23:32:46 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 23:32:47 Adlai: and other processes would be unaffected 23:32:58 slava: I think a futuristic lisp should be powerful enough, and would include enough of a subset of CL, that it'd be trivial to have an ANSI-CL package 23:33:03 uh, what Fare said :D 23:33:14 Adlai: youd' be rolling an ld.so replacement with dynamic language semantics, basically 23:33:25 ok, so take PLT, add a LLVM backend and a CL frontend? 23:33:30 Fare: the interface might be as elegant as that between C and CL. 23:33:32 Fare: as long as it wasn't loaded into the default core, then I'll be happy 23:33:38 Okay, I guess http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.ecl.general/2723 is pretty close about ECL vs. image dumping. 23:33:42 Fare: PLT scheme makes me puke 23:33:43 some Lisps have the compiler and other stuff compiled to shared libraries 23:33:46 But isn't the immutable data still heap compacted? 23:33:48 with some (dynamic) substructural typing? 23:33:52 slava, how so? 23:33:55 hmm, I'm thinking about making things like the CL library immutable, but not "user" code and data 23:33:57 Sikander: if it doesn't change, you only have to compact it once at compile time 23:34:08 In short: "There is not such thing as dumping, because of the way ECL builds 23:34:09 ah, right 23:34:10 itself." 23:34:13 Fare: the implementation is a LOT of C and C++ code, its slow and inelegant, and it tries to have every feature 23:34:25 and the 'language packs' are just plain weird. there's about 20 schemes in PLT scheme 23:34:31 and 213412 object systems 23:34:46 slava, I don't care for the implementation -- but the overall module system is nice 23:34:53 if not in syntax, at least in semantics 23:34:57 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:35:06 Fare: the module system is nothing special though. r6rs is similar and there are several implementations now 23:35:19 Fare: yeah, I remember you having an angry blogrant about ANSI CL's attempt at module systems (and eval-when) 23:35:22 it's much better than the r6rs module system 23:35:26 slava: there are also several module systems, in r6rs ;) 23:35:29 ikarus and larceny are pretty decent as far as compilers/runtimes go 23:35:30 no IDE though 23:35:32 maybe the r7rs will get there, tho 23:35:46 also nothing in the scheme world is as mature as sbcl 23:35:48 modulo windows support 23:35:56 slava, Chez Scheme is pretty good 23:36:04 but proprietary 23:36:19 For real world development, Jazz + Gambit will likely get there very soon. 23:36:19 ikarus is developed by the author's student 23:36:26 I'm more worried about the fact that there is no Scheme world, there are Scheme worlds. 23:36:32 the whole idea of compiling to C just seems so stupidto me 23:36:36 gambit is developed by the author's students and ex students (: 23:36:49 pkhuong: what is IBM Jazz? I couldn't get behind the buzzwords... 23:37:00 Adlai: jazz scheme is an IDE 23:37:04 used to have its own scheme underneath 23:37:06 oh, ok 23:37:10 and was windows-only 23:37:22 now its got a cross platform gui and runs on gambit 23:37:34 gambit is another Scheme compiler, right? 23:37:40 its a text editor/REPL/project manager type thing. feels quite static 23:37:43 mikel evins likes gambit 23:37:44 but the gui is nice 23:38:00 Adlai: gambit compiles scheme to (very ugly) C 23:38:12 Adlai: and there's a bytecode interpreter for the REPL 23:38:18 the whole system feels like a giant hack 23:38:19 slava: I wouldn't call that C (: 23:38:23 Gambit used to have a native code backend (for m68k) 23:38:26 -!- lletres [n=nieve@pool-96-246-60-112.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:38:40 Xach, what's mikel doing these days? 23:38:40 what ever happened to the "stalin" Scheme compiler? Has it fallen out-of-date with r#rs? 23:38:48 if he has an active blog, I don't know it 23:38:51 code generation for m68k is fun, with the data and address register split 23:38:53 Adlai: it's only ever supported r4rs + some extensions. 23:39:03 not even all of r4rs afaik 23:39:11 stalin is no longer maintained and the source is unreadable 23:39:23 too bad because it did some pretty aggressive optimizations 23:39:33 but the author wrote articles explaining his code analyzes and optimizations 23:39:37 MLton kind of carried the torch from there 23:39:43 that's too bad. I remember being really excited when I read about it, that it produced code faster than hand-optimized C. 23:39:48 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 23:40:03 Adlai: of course if you believe the author's contieved benchmarks 23:40:09 *Adlai* isn't a planner, conniver, or a schemer, though... 23:40:11 Fare: it's on livejournal. 23:40:18 Fare: he blogs once a week or so 23:40:29 Xach: URL? 23:40:44 mikelevins.livejournal.com 23:40:48 thanks! 23:41:00 I'm afraid it's ragged-right 23:41:31 Xach: I thought siskind had an LJ for a second here. 23:42:04 haha 23:42:36 *Adlai* laughs because he knew somebody called Mike Levin 23:43:23 (topper) I knew someone called Mik Elevin... 23:43:25 Mike Levin wrote the first Lisp compiler, IIRC 23:43:40 lispm: wasn't that Steve Russel? 23:44:10 he wrote the first Lisp 23:44:17 uh, he links to my Sheeple github repo :| 23:44:24 (Mikel Evins) 23:44:35 and jokes about porting Sheeple to Clojure! 23:44:40 'The first complete Lisp compiler, written in Lisp, was implemented in 1962 by Tim Hart and Mike Levin at MIT.' 23:44:50 lispm: ok 23:45:11 that's also the first self-hosting compiler, right? 23:45:14 Tim Hart also invented Macros, didn't he? 23:45:16 (other than assemblers) 23:45:25 *Xach* wonders when the first self-loathing compiler will be created 23:45:30 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:45:31 I met him once, and also got the name wrong. 23:45:38 embarassing 23:46:02 gthompson [n=gaz@91.110.220.57] has joined #lisp 23:46:57 'The first self-hosting compiler (excluding assemblers) was written for Lisp by Hart and Levin at MIT in 1962.' 23:47:03 ;-) 23:47:05 uh... I have an error: missing package XLIB ?! 23:47:29 AI Memo 39-The new compiler 23:47:32 Shouldn't that be clx? 23:47:35 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442135.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 23:47:35 ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/pdf/AIM-039.pdf 23:47:50 -!- milanj- [n=milan@93.86.187.70] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:47:51 lispm: that's the one that talks about the compiler as a single s-expression, right? :D 23:48:17 beach: Only now am I trying to compile your stuff. I get a missing package xlib. What is it? where do I get it? 23:48:37 minion: clx? 23:48:38 clx: CLX is to Common Lisp as Xlib is to C - it provides low-level X calls on top of which a Graphics Toolkit can be based. http://www.cliki.net/clx 23:48:50 I guess this is as close as it gets about ECL and image dumping: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.ecl.general/3904 23:49:01 stassats: I have clx. I don't have a package called xlib. 23:49:27 hmmm... 23:49:33 minion: xlib? 23:49:34 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``xlib''. 23:49:38 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:49:38 see 23:50:29 you think you don't have it, did you load clx? 23:50:33 impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442135.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:50:40 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442135.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 23:50:40 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 23:50:58 stassats: wait, what?! Why did that work?! 23:51:16 *Sikander* doesn't like voodoo. 23:51:28 deepfire: What are you trying to do with ECL? 23:51:30 Sikander: it's the windows effect 23:51:33 impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442135.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:51:39 you just restart, and it works (until the next crash 23:51:40 ) 23:51:42 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442135.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 23:52:00 Adlai: d'oh! 23:52:26 redline6561, delivering an embedded JTAG debugger on win32. 23:52:58 impulse32 [n=impulse@70.31.21.23] has joined #lisp 23:53:08 deepfire: I've had some success building standalone executables thanks to a discussion on the list. I hope to make a blog post about it in the next day or two. 23:53:30 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 23:53:47 deepfire: Until then, http://bit.ly/1usJcs 23:53:57 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:54:25 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:48 redline6561, if you look more closely, I was the first to respond to you in that thread :-) 23:54:59 deepfire: I am an idiot. Thanks. :P 23:55:06 *redline6561* thinks it must be time to make dinner 23:55:16 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:55:49 *Sikander* yawns. 23:55:51 Time for bed. 23:55:59 Goodnight. 23:56:01 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:56:05 goodnight Sikander, thank you for sparking an interesting discussion 23:56:17 *Adlai* needs to type faster! 23:57:20 -!- gthompson [n=gaz@91.110.220.57] has left #lisp 23:57:35 fatalnix1995 [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:01 -!- rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-239-57.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:59:22 *lispm* macroexpands a few expressions 23:59:40 -!- robsynnott [n=robertsy@89.100.143.184] has quit []