00:03:03 erh wait. No, that was totally off the mark. 00:03:12 ok 00:03:16 (interesting nonethelesss) 00:03:18 The page faults here are due to swapping, iirc. 00:03:44 there are real languages that use mutator instrumentation for the write barrier too, like the jvm and afaik clozure cl 00:05:46 I see, that also makes sense 00:06:00 slava: you don't count factor as a "real language"? 00:06:53 minion: memo for tmh: wrt page faults, I was completely wrong. They refer to OS page faults, so the number of pages that were swapped out. SBCL doesn't give much information about the GC. 00:06:54 Remembered. I'll tell tmh when he/she/it next speaks. 00:07:02 -!- demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-193-054.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:07:40 thanks for clearing that up! I was also always curious about those in TIME output. 00:08:03 slava: do you mean that in CCL, page faults have to do with the GC, rather than (or in addition to?) swapping? 00:08:38 Adlai: no, just that CCL doesn't use the MMU to detect potential old-to-young pointers. 00:08:50 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:09:55 oh, I think I see what is meant by "mutator instrumentation" -- how (setf cdr) gets turned into a call to an internal .SPRPLACD routine that handles the write barrier. 00:10:42 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:13:05 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-215-154.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:25 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:18:45 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633767.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:20:01 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 00:20:24 Adlai: usually the write barrier is inlined, but yeah 00:21:11 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:21:45 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:21:55 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:08 slava: have you tried other techniques than card marking, e.g. a sequential store buffer? 00:22:15 no 00:22:39 I guess I should've, but at this point card marking is pretty fast, since now it only scans the parts of objects that are marked 00:22:39 slava: I don't think I've seen it inlined on CCL 00:25:32 Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has joined #lisp 00:26:30 -!- Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has quit ["Balooga has no reason"] 00:28:29 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-29-48.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:42 sellout: herep 00:29:24 he's busy checking his options 00:29:35 do people know if Archlinux's SBCL package includes CLX? 00:30:32 Adlai: I think you have to install it separately?... 00:31:15 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@adsl-217-150-83.owb.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:15 sykopomp: I don't, but my lispophobic friend that I've gently convinced to try StumpWM will. 00:31:33 What options does a guy with the most giant nephew ever have to check? 00:31:40 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-222-180.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:31:45 gigamonkey: t 00:32:37 *Xach* was making up that part about the options 00:35:37 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 00:35:39 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:38:13 So yeah, I'm practicing carrying my cat around. He's not _quite_ as heavy as Ethan, but I think he's probably a bit pointier and more inclined to leap out of my arms. 00:38:35 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.150.185] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:38:45 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:42:31 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@adsl-217-150-83.owb.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:42:44 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@adsl-217-150-83.owb.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:21 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-189-253.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:44:38 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@adsl-217-150-83.owb.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:44:41 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 00:45:03 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@adsl-217-150-83.owb.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:45 After I had my kid I wished someone had told me that while my wife was doing all sort of exercises to prepare for labor I should be carrying around an eight-pound sack of rice for several hours a day to prepare my upper back. 00:45:45 can i remove a memo from minion 00:46:00 minion: help memos 00:46:01 To send a memo, say something like ``minion: memo for nick: the memo''. I'll remember the memo for any nick which is the same as the given nick, +/- differences in punctuation, and any nick which is an alias for it, and give it to them when they next speak. 00:46:07 minion: help 00:46:08 There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms". 00:46:22 Guthur: It's explained under one of those options. 00:46:51 i was thinking minion needed a help file 00:50:22 it seems i can't remove ones i have sent 00:50:54 ah well 00:53:12 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.197] has joined #lisp 00:58:06 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@adsl-217-150-83.owb.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:58:33 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@adsl-217-150-83.owb.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:16 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-140-191-199.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 00:59:25 ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.134.189] has joined #lisp 01:00:06 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-92-209.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:53 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-115-105.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:05:08 gigamonkey: Sounds like an efficient solution is to have children just after going to college :-) 01:11:32 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:49 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:15:02 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 01:17:52 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:19:08 grrr, i have this long-running process that responsible and doing it's job well, it just stopped logging to the log file after the first few lines 01:19:26 i forgot to do finish-output and its stream buffers should be overflowed by now 01:20:20 C-c is not an option at the moment 01:21:41 fusss: if the buffers get full, they'll flush to the log file... 01:22:00 that's what buffering means... 01:22:03 Is there a way to change the end-of-file convention? 01:22:56 quidnunc: not a standard way, and not all implementations support it. clisp does, though. 01:23:42 Xach: Is it a dynamic variable or is it a parameter passed to functions? Do you know it off-hand? 01:24:06 quidnunc: no. check the implementation notes. 01:24:25 Xach: Will do. Thank you. 01:25:59 -!- m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 01:27:35 pkhuong: i know they would overflow .. X-D 01:27:45 it just hasn't happened yet 01:28:10 3000 single-line entries. they should have flushed ages ago by now. each line ~100 chars. 01:28:38 fusss: character streams are usually line buffered, iirc. 01:28:51 Not a good sign for you. Why can't you grab a backtrace and continue? 01:28:54 alright 01:29:50 btw, what are "elided-streams"? there is an implementation in cliki's sources 01:30:14 *fusss* hasn't gotten into the business of custom streams yet .. 01:30:34 milanj [n=milan@212.200.192.111] has joined #lisp 01:37:39 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:38:41 eno__ [n=eno@70.137.170.39] has joined #lisp 01:39:53 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@adsl-217-150-83.owb.bellsouth.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:40:39 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:42:57 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:44:14 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:58 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-215-154.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:46:03 Harag [n=phil@41.213.53.81] has joined #lisp 01:46:52 Anybody here know how to hook up a new type of store into weblocks? 01:48:01 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp166.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:48:19 I hacked a postmodern store for it but my brain is to mangled by to much coffee to figure out how to hook it up now 01:49:27 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:51:20 aah well then its tommorows problem...night 01:51:29 -!- Harag [n=phil@41.213.53.81] has left #lisp 01:51:46 lighterthanair [n=lightert@pool-71-255-74-44.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:28 -!- quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:56:11 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@209.131.62.113] has left #lisp 02:00:18 -!- lighterthanair [n=lightert@pool-71-255-74-44.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:05:49 redblue [i=star@ppp043.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:07:58 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:08:09 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 02:11:23 eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 02:12:25 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 02:12:41 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@68.178.103.210] has joined #lisp 02:14:38 -!- eno__ [n=eno@70.137.170.39] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:19:53 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.192.111] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:27:59 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.254.207] has joined #lisp 02:32:14 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp043.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 02:36:01 what would you call an application that runs on the desktop with a GUI, has a command line interface, that has a web interface, and also a wire protocol to be used as a web service or a distributed system? 02:36:09 cross-domain? 02:37:07 I feel like writing a tutorial on "Deploying Cross-Domain Lisp Applications" and using Montezuma to write a desktop search engine with an exported network API for sharing the index and remote querying :-) 02:38:08 just whip out something in lambda-gtk or ltk quickly, write a C stub to integrate it into the system (i.e. start as a service in Win32, minimize to the systray, right click a folder to index contents, etc.) it would be a good show off, imo 02:42:07 fusss: "bloated" 02:42:39 :P 02:44:01 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:44:23 Ralith: I didn't realize your mom had a desktop GUI, CLI, web interface, etc! 02:44:48 hey! watch it there 02:45:18 not even Sheeple-maintainership allows you to talk about people's moms like that. 02:45:52 don't worry, Ralith and I are tight. 02:46:20 elderK [n=zk@122-57-250-233.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:48:30 fusss: so what would this app be, some kind of cross-desktop Google? 02:49:48 google desktop that doesn't phone home or work as well/fast 02:50:05 just an excuse to index my 40 gigs worth of texts, really 02:50:42 *fusss* remembers how painful it is to "scrape" PDF and Word documents and and backpedals a bit 03:01:00 ramus`_ [n=ramus@99.23.136.125] has joined #lisp 03:01:02 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:01:14 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 03:01:45 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:02:03 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.134.189] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:03:08 -!- ramus`_ is now known as ramus` 03:05:48 |B^-1 y|, what a wonderful variable name (: 03:10:07 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.136.125] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:12:54 ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.135.214] has joined #lisp 03:15:23 ropert [n=user@99.227.173.181] has joined #lisp 03:21:10 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:24:40 lol 03:24:44 pkhuong: where? 03:24:55 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-215-154.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:40 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 03:27:05 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 03:28:49 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:02 -!- marioxcc [n=user@201.132.137.190] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:32:04 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:32:19 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.254.207] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:32:45 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:33:09 -!- elderK [n=zk@122-57-250-233.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [] 03:33:11 marioxcc [n=user@201.132.137.190] has joined #lisp 03:35:07 p_l: in my sparse (L-)BFGS. 03:36:04 260 LOC, a third of which is random sparse BLAS code. 03:40:13 -!- eldragon is now known as ElSuperDragon 03:41:12 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 03:41:37 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:41:41 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 03:41:58 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:44:42 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-199-125.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:57 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:44:59 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:46:40 redblue [i=star@ppp049.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:48:47 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 03:51:08 -!- marioxcc [n=user@201.132.137.190] has quit [""It's stupidity. It's worse than stupidity: it's a marketing hype campaign." RMS on cloud computing"] 03:51:30 Demosthenes [n=demo@167.206.154.26] has joined #lisp 03:54:21 kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 03:54:21 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:55:07 -!- sah0s [n=anto@254.134.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [] 04:00:42 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-215-161.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:02:36 -!- ropert [n=user@99.227.173.181] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:06:47 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.254.207] has joined #lisp 04:12:12 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-92-209.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:12:19 -!- kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [] 04:14:41 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 04:14:44 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@88.73.199.65] has joined #lisp 04:16:59 -!- sepult`` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-26-212.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 04:17:33 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:24:20 -!- aceluck [n=aceluck@124.13.48.98] has quit [] 04:27:50 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 04:28:37 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:30:38 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-199-125.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:31:20 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-79.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:33:17 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@68.178.103.210] has quit [] 04:34:04 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-26-212.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:37:55 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@68.178.103.210] has joined #lisp 04:39:06 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:42:26 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.197] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:45:29 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@68.178.103.210] has quit [] 04:46:43 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 04:52:23 X-ice [n=qwe@77.79.139.174.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has joined #lisp 04:57:45 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.154.246.45] has joined #lisp 04:59:29 Summermute [n=scott@c-76-114-212-247.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:12 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:00:32 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.194.63] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 05:02:07 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@68.178.103.210] has joined #lisp 05:03:12 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 05:06:40 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.254.207] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:06:49 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-215-154.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:07:09 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.254.207] has joined #lisp 05:10:21 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.154.246.45] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:10:21 -!- nvoorhies_ is now known as nvoorhies 05:12:16 -!- s0ber_ [i=pie@118-160-170-151.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:12:39 s0ber [i=pie@118-160-166-60.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:56 s0ber_ [i=pie@114-45-231-16.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:05 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 05:17:33 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 05:18:32 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 05:26:22 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-76-114-212-247.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:26:55 -!- cmatei__ [n=cmatei@82.137.49.217] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:28:48 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 05:28:50 Harag [n=phil@41.213.53.81] has joined #lisp 05:29:24 any weblocks hackers around? 05:30:03 cmatei__ [n=cmatei@82.137.49.217] has joined #lisp 05:30:31 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-160-166-60.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:30:44 -!- Harag [n=phil@41.213.53.81] has left #lisp 05:36:05 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:38:30 knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has joined #lisp 05:39:06 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 05:45:39 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:47:00 hadronzoo [n=user@209.30.43.127] has joined #lisp 05:55:59 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:56:55 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633767.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 06:02:42 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.254.207] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:03:27 -!- HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:06:56 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:52 ropert [n=user@CPE00222d12ee72-CM00222d12ee6e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 06:17:40 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:18:00 hello 06:23:07 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 06:23:42 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:11 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 06:31:04 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-239-57.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 06:32:31 <_3b> yay, think i've compiled something entirely with the new version of my flash compiler :) 06:33:50 pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.58.146] has joined #lisp 06:36:35 -!- ropert [n=user@CPE00222d12ee72-CM00222d12ee6e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:39:22 Axius [n=ojof@92.82.81.244] has joined #lisp 06:40:00 _3b: then, perhaps you could add it to the http://cliki.net/LanguagesImplementedInLisp page? ;-) 06:40:24 -!- X-ice [n=qwe@77.79.139.174.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has left #lisp 06:40:37 <_3b> pjb: it is a lisp, so probably not really interesting there :) 06:41:11 Oh! I thought it was a flash language from Adobe Flash... 06:41:35 Then I assume it's a quick compiler? 06:41:39 <_3b> nope, it targets the flash VM 06:41:48 ok. 06:42:33 Is it a subset of CL? 06:42:43 <_3b> (it might compile quickly, but if so only due to not actually being very smart yet) 06:42:52 <_3b> that is the goal 06:43:12 Then it would have its place on cliki.net/Common%20Lisp%20implementation 06:43:21 <_3b> but it probably won't be a true subset any time soon though, since there are a few things that i will probably leave to the VM that won't match CL 06:43:45 <_3b> like fixnums turning into doubles when the overflow instead of bignums, that sort of thing 06:43:56 Well, if there's a non empty intersection... A subset of Scheme is a subset of CL... 06:44:15 <_3b> true, it might be a superset of a subset of CL at some point :) 06:45:04 <_3b> it probably will fit on that page at some point though 06:47:14 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:50:51 fuzzfuzz [n=fuzzfuzz@CPE00195b4f2aa0-CM001225d75412.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 06:51:09 <_3b> especially if things that aren't even programming languages, much less CL can go on the page :p 06:52:54 lhz [n=shrekz@213.114.170.185] has joined #lisp 06:54:01 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:54:30 The list is built automatically from tags... 06:56:29 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 06:56:37 -!- fuzzfuzz [n=fuzzfuzz@CPE00195b4f2aa0-CM001225d75412.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:56:44 <_3b> ah, makes more sense from that direction 06:58:21 -!- ElSuperDragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has left #lisp 07:06:39 Good morning! 07:07:25 beach: good morning! 07:07:30 *Adlai* just hacked stumpwm, successfully! 07:07:43 Congratulations! 07:08:09 it's a hack for a friend, who at my convincing is now using stumpwm... he asked for a feature, he'll have it when he wakes up :) 07:08:32 That sounds like a very nice surprise. 07:10:02 yep, it was also a really easy one... just replacing an if with a 3-option cond clause 07:10:34 Those easy things sometimes take quite a while to figure out. 07:11:17 oh, yeah, it was only easy because I had been reading the stumpwm source for a while, helping him configure it (he knows no lisp), so I knew where to make the change 07:12:12 heh, yeah, knowing the source helps :) 07:15:11 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-223-22.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 07:16:28 tcr [n=tcr@138.246.7.146] has joined #lisp 07:17:35 milanj [n=milan@212.200.192.111] has joined #lisp 07:19:18 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:23:33 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 07:23:40 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has left #lisp 07:29:03 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 07:29:20 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@68.178.103.210] has quit [] 07:30:01 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:31:40 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@68.178.103.210] has joined #lisp 07:32:37 attila_lendvai [n=ati@89.134.66.153] has joined #lisp 07:37:07 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@68.178.103.210] has quit [] 07:44:33 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:47 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@167.206.154.26] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:47:30 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.82.81.244] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:48:57 Harag [n=phil@41.213.53.81] has joined #lisp 07:51:06 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-4-121.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:51:37 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@89.134.66.153] has quit ["..."] 07:57:10 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.192.111] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:57:28 rouslan [n=rouslan@pool-70-109-151-129.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:03 Besides for scripting in a few advanced apps, what are some modern uses of Lisp (and its derivatives)? 07:58:36 like the uses of any other programming languages 07:58:51 rouslan: Er, Lisp is a general-purpose programming language. 07:58:54 morphling [n=stefan@89.15.139.105] has joined #lisp 07:59:05 lisp isn't as strong in embedded devices like mobile phones 07:59:08 What sort of applications are written in it? 07:59:32 but the reason for that is most likely not related to lisp as a language 07:59:35 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:59:41 And why? More convenient metaprogramming? 08:00:13 rouslan: Lisp is just more powerful than most other general-purpose languages 08:00:13 lisp is the language other languages copy features from 08:00:29 -!- Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:00:39 rouslan: See for instance http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/features.text 08:00:57 it is easier to evolve lisp than let's say C++. prototyping a new feature doesn't normally require large changes to the underlying implementation 08:01:49 I see, makes sense. 08:02:11 How different is Common Lisp from Scheme? 08:02:38 rouslan: Very 08:02:52 well, that depends on the POV 08:03:53 Also, is Lisp still very popular in AI research? 08:04:04 Not very 08:04:04 tcr, memo from Adlai: I never knew about C-M-. but thanks to you asking about it earlier, I looked it up and have used it five times already :) 08:04:27 rouslan: Why are you asking all these questions? 08:04:41 rouslan: if it's not language research then I have a sinking feeling that it's all in Java with bits of .NET :/ 08:04:55 beach: I'm just curious...I'm currently reading HTDP. 08:05:10 minion: What does HTDP stand for? 08:05:11 Hum Tyrology Decurvation Phantasy 08:05:23 beach: How To Design Programs by Felleisen et al 08:05:26 http://www.htdp.org/ 08:05:33 Ah! 08:05:59 Right, that would be based on Scheme I suppose. 08:06:04 yes 08:06:06 [given the authors] 08:06:32 I was thinking of studying PAIP (http://norvig.com/paip.html) next. 08:06:49 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-16-19.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:07:03 rouslan: Basically, Scheme is a very small language useful for programming-language research and teaching, whereas CL is a big language immediately ready for real applications. 08:07:03 Is that a good introductory AI text? 08:07:04 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:07:15 rouslan: No, PAIP is not a good introduction. 08:07:22 rouslan: But it is an excellent second book 08:07:41 but not for AI anymore 08:07:42 minion: please tell rouslan about PCL. 08:07:50 So would Scheme be more of a subset of Lisp? 08:07:50 although real world scheme impls with the libs are not that much worse for real apps... 08:07:51 rouslan: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 08:08:06 rouslan: Like I said, they are very different. 08:08:12 ok 08:08:33 it has less features out of the box. this doesn't mean, in this case, that the features they have in common would be the same 08:08:37 rouslan: They are only superficially similar. 08:08:39 So it's best to read HTDP -> PCL -> PAIP? 08:08:54 scheme has quite some novel and cleanly designed features 08:09:01 rouslan: Sure, or you can skip HTDP and go PCL directly. 08:09:09 rouslan: what is your goal? 08:09:17 and some of those features are not thought of as clean or even novel from a common lisp standpoint 08:09:26 rouslan: scheme has a bit different name lookup rules, has a much smaller core, ... but from a C programmer's POV it's not much different than CL. from other POV there are quite big differences 08:09:30 to learn Lisp, to learn computer science, to learn AI programming? 08:10:01 although beach seems to have a different subjective opinion about this... :) 08:10:39 lispm: First simply learn Scheme and Lisp (syntax, semantics, etc.) and most importantly learn about language theory, AI, etc. 08:10:58 attila_lendvai: some people are objective, some more objective than others ;) 08:10:58 rouslan: About applications, Kent Pitman once wrote: "Please don't assume Lisp is only useful for Animation and Graphics, AI, Bioinformatics, B2B and E-Commerce, Data Mining, EDA/Semiconductor applications, Expert Systems, Finance, Intelligent Agents, Knowledge Management, Mechanical CAD, Modeling and Simulation, Natural Language, Optimization, Research, Risk Analysis, Scheduling, Telecom, and Web Authoring just because these are th 08:10:58 only things they happened to list." 08:11:12 Scheme, SICP, HTDP and some others are a good choice 08:11:37 attila_lendvai: But then, I am not a C programmer. 08:11:42 [anymore] 08:11:43 most people here prefer Common Lisp for programming , hough 08:11:58 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 08:12:08 Ok, thanks! I'll start PCL after I finish reading HTDP. 08:12:24 Good luck! 08:12:46 like writing web applications, games, window managers, development environments, editors, ... 08:13:07 web applications are popular among CL users 08:13:13 ... compilers, information systems... 08:13:23 lots of hobbyists seem to write games with SDL or OpenGL 08:13:36 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219.89.105.20] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:13:40 -!- rouslan [n=rouslan@pool-70-109-151-129.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 08:13:44 there are some music applications using Lisp, with sophisticated user interfaces 08:15:31 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 08:16:23 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:18:08 rouslan, I was asking some time ago what Lispers do on Reddit: 08:18:10 http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/91x7g/reddit_lispers_maybe_you_would_like_to_introduce/ 08:19:41 lispm: rouslan left. 08:19:55 heh, right 08:20:09 no, left 08:20:15 too early here 08:20:29 hey Krystof! 08:20:37 morning 08:20:39 left or right, he is gone 08:20:52 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 08:23:56 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 08:26:53 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177126180.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 08:46:55 tcr: i've seen you adapted the restart numbering... i've sent another patch that would be useful in HEAD: store slime fasls where asdf stores them 08:48:31 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:50:00 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:28 Yeah but I did it slightly different to your patch. Thanks for the suggestion, though 08:51:47 I don't care for fasls; perhaps stassats has some interest 08:52:32 I'll fwd the mail 08:53:29 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:55:21 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 08:55:40 mrSpec [n=Spec@chello089074179078.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 08:57:00 <_3b> hmm, '11 nested errors' again 08:58:28 -!- asksol [n=ask@212-181-96-82.customer.telia.com] has quit [] 08:58:29 <_3b> started from different error from last time, but the error loop looks the same 08:59:06 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F5B7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:06 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host170.190-138-153.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:01:21 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 09:07:02 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229080168.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:09:33 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 09:11:05 tcr: to-string and print1-to-string-for-emacs seems to be redundant in swank.lisp 09:12:04 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:12:23 well, modulo print error handling, which may be important for the wire protocol... so dunno 09:13:12 Adlai` [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:13:13 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:13:43 uh no there are no redundant, how's it that you think they are? 09:13:52 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 09:14:11 print1-to-string-for-emacs is to print cl objects so elisp READ can deal with them 09:14:33 to-string is to get the string representation for user's objects 09:15:09 Adlai: I just reworked C-M-.; you'll love it. let me just commit the work. I'll later blog about it, too. 09:15:10 tcr: dunno, the name confused me. then i saw that they are used in different context where the differences probably matter 09:15:58 Names do not mean much in slime, just look at heller's recent changelog entry. 09:16:44 sah0s [n=anto@87.221.134.10] has joined #lisp 09:17:46 heh... long names are confusing?! 09:17:48 -!- nowhereman [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:18:03 nowhereman [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:18:05 the slime coding standard police caught you... :) 09:18:32 dacoda [n=user@clientssh2.rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:19:02 -!- dacoda [n=user@clientssh2.rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Client Quit] 09:19:44 seems like adding comments are also not cool... :) 09:20:16 dacoda [n=user@clientssh2.rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:20:35 nor naming and factoring out an operation with non-trivial intention behind it into a function 09:21:07 -!- dacoda [n=user@clientssh2.rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Client Quit] 09:21:09 demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-207-144.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:26 tcr: baaah, i rather stop looking at his last commit for my own peace... 09:22:10 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:23:04 I don't think the commit is so bad. Long names can be confusing (just look at slime-fuzzy.el). I'm more in disagreement with renaming the text property from something slime-specific to a general word 09:25:22 long names never confused me (except the bad ones), but the text property is double confusing becase there are two things, restarts and restart-numbers, and this is only a restart number, not a whole restart in the property... i had to stare a while to see what's happening there 09:27:21 <_3b> does slime/sldb normally hide some frames from backtrace? 09:27:40 _3b: Yes it does 09:27:50 <_3b> any way to unhide them? 09:28:10 sbcl? 09:28:13 <_3b> yeah 09:29:24 Well you're supposed to be able to go to the native debugger via `B' in sldb but that didn't just quite work correctly for me 09:29:34 <_3b> yeah, just tried that 09:30:52 you should report that to the mailing list 09:30:59 _3b: in swank-sbcl.lisp, NTH-FRAME 09:31:18 replace *sldb-stack-top* with (sb-di:top-frame) 09:32:51 <_3b> cool, that seems to work 09:33:32 please tell me about the conclusion of the problem you're facing 09:33:39 once you reached one that is :) 09:33:55 <_3b> if i reach one :p 09:34:06 enlightenment shall strike you 09:34:30 <_3b> heh, at least i know the beginning of the backtrace seems normal now 09:35:23 <_3b> and they appear to diverge at swank:force-user-output called from swank::debug-in-emacs 09:36:24 <_3b> which apparently hits a sb-kernel:object-not-type-error-handler 09:36:50 could you paste a backtrace? 09:37:17 <_3b> you want the whole thing, or just up to the error loop? 09:37:35 what's the whole thing? 09:38:02 the whole sldb buffer with no --more-- 09:38:15 *_3b* will just paste the whole thing, only an extra 80 or 90 lines... 09:38:19 (You can press > to get at the true end of an sldb buffer) 09:38:44 <_3b> no sldb buffer, it broke trying to error 09:38:59 heh ok 09:39:02 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 09:39:52 _3b pasted "error loop" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89197 09:40:09 <_3b> error loop starts at 80: or so 09:40:29 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 09:41:03 <_3b> i've hit this twice in last few days, not repeatably though, and from different errors 09:43:55 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 09:44:59 <_3b> hmm, hadn't noticed it printed different backtraces to *slime-repl sbcl* and *inferior-lisp* 09:47:14 tcr: i've also got a patch that makes frame pruning smarter (e.g. when errors come up from non-repl threads it prunes both ends from swank frames) 09:48:17 <_3b> ah, i guess the repl got the first '11 nested errors' attempt, then when that errored, it tried again to *inferior-lisp* 09:49:33 attila_lendvai: Not interested; such a patch would take careful consideration, I don't have the time for that right now. 09:52:19 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp049.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:53:44 _3b annotated #89197 "repl backtrace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89197#1 09:56:12 _3b these things usually happen with broken print-object methods 09:56:42 ejs [n=eugen@91.124.204.75] has joined #lisp 09:56:49 <_3b> attila_lendvai: object-not-type in swank:force-user-output ? 09:57:35 _3b not specifically, but in general when nested debuggers come up 09:58:16 although this one indeed looks like something else 09:58:41 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2F211.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:58:48 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2DCE2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:58:51 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 10:00:19 <_3b> anything i can try while the image is still up but unresponsive? 10:01:01 <_3b> if not i'll just kill it and add a sanity check to foruce-user-output in hopes of getting more info if it breaks again 10:13:43 -!- holly_ [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:14:34 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-140-191-199.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:15:57 Demosthenes [n=demo@167.206.154.26] has joined #lisp 10:16:18 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:17:19 <_3b> tcr: M-? drops to debugger on non-existent symbols 10:17:55 arnee [n=arnee@89.182.2.88] has joined #lisp 10:20:30 <_3b> interestingly, M-. apparently adds whatever M-? fails to find, since M-? doesn't break if M-. is used first on that symbol 10:22:46 <_3b> ah, i guess M-. just interns the symbol 10:25:26 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 10:32:12 -!- Harag [n=phil@41.213.53.81] has left #lisp 10:40:11 Well it shouldn't 10:41:08 _3b: If you use M-? make sure to update to HEAD. 10:41:23 I just added something which makes it even more pleasingly to use 10:42:14 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:44:05 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 10:44:28 [df] [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has joined #lisp 10:45:59 ziga` [n=ziga`@89.143.132.102] has joined #lisp 10:46:00 <[df]> are there any free tools out there for managing CLOS methods? basically I want to be able to view a list of methods on a given generic function and delete ones I don't want 10:46:34 minion: tell [df] about SLIME 10:46:35 [df]: please look at SLIME: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/SLIME 10:46:57 [df]: try C-c I #'print-object 10:47:50 <[df]> great, thanks :) 10:49:07 Adlai: Update your slime checkout. I added C-M-, which is like C-M-. but moves back 10:52:08 *Adlai* updates 10:53:52 in slime-inspect how can i go back up a level of inspection 10:54:47 oh sorry i meant the debug inspection, though i am hoping it is the same i need both 10:54:59 Guthur: yes, they're the same. Try l 10:55:19 <_3b> bah, hit the error again, and it turns out i put the sanity checks in teh wrong function :p 10:55:45 great cheers adlai 11:00:14 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-38.dial.nortenet.pt] has joined #lisp 11:05:37 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-41-181.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:11:08 tcr: hmm, something doesn't seem right. The buffer showing the possible xref options stays open and doesn't get selected right away when I do M-. 11:11:50 that's intended 11:12:03 but nothing happens when I do M-. 11:12:03 you're supposed to cycle through it via C-M-. and C-M-, 11:12:10 it doesn't jump to the first xref 11:15:12 <_3b> tcr: apparently i'm getting :swank-debugger-hook consed onto the beginning of *emacs-connections* 11:15:31 *_3b* wonders if i just broke something horribly at some point and forgot about it 11:16:11 that's supposed to go to *swank-state-stack* 11:16:29 <_3b> yeah, that's only place i could find it getting added 11:17:41 tcr: ok, this is still not great -- I need to press M-. and then C-M-. 11:17:50 shouldn't it jump straight to the first xref? 11:18:02 also, after I do M-, the other buffer stays around 11:18:34 It might be the case that you do want to jump to the first entry 11:19:36 The indented sequence is: M-_ C-M-. C-x 1 frob C-M-. C-x 1 frob 11:20:37 I get an error when I M-_ a function name 11:20:45 it says that it can't find a class with that name :| 11:21:00 you're on ccl? 11:21:03 yes 11:21:06 should I try on SBCL? 11:21:06 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:21:15 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:22:20 I guess that's a bug in ccl's swank backend 11:27:51 -!- Elench is now known as vreSekaC 11:30:03 Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has joined #lisp 11:30:25 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 11:31:22 Adlai: Right that's a bug in its swank backend. Should fixed now. 11:31:54 *Adlai* clbuild update clime 11:32:09 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:32:38 It's probably going to take a few minutes 11:32:42 oh, ok 11:32:45 for the changes to propagate 11:35:13 <_3b> oh yeah, checking stuff in... that's what i was supposed to be doing 11:38:08 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-75-51.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:39:05 tcr: I just hit C-M-. when doing a new and unrelated M-., and it jumped back to the previous multiple-xref M-. that I had done 11:40:02 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:40:10 djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 11:41:04 Yeah that's true 11:42:53 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:27 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 11:43:33 Greetings. 11:43:34 tmh, memo from pkhuong: wrt page faults, I was completely wrong. They refer to OS page faults, so the number of pages that were swapped out. SBCL doesn't give much information about the GC. 11:44:41 pkhuong: Ok, I'll google page faults just so I have a better idea of the significance. Thanks 11:44:41 frontiers [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 11:45:57 Is it acceptable to connect to a swank version 2009-10-23 with a slime version 2009-10-24? 11:46:51 yeah but you won't be able to take advantage of the C-M-. / C-M-, goodies 11:49:09 redblue [i=star@ppp127.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 11:52:02 Thanks 11:53:40 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-26-212.netcologne.de] has quit [No route to host] 11:57:56 tomoyuki28jp` [n=tomoyuki@y225198.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:58:14 hello :) 11:59:20 -!- _8david [n=user@pD95413CA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:59:32 _8david [n=user@pD95413CA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:00:55 hello tomoyuki28jp` 12:01:14 beach: hi, beach. 12:01:15 long time no see. 12:01:25 yeah, where have you been? 12:02:25 I haven't written lisp for a while because I have been busy to work for another project. 12:03:58 http://trittweiler.blogspot.com/2009/10/slime-tidbits-2009-10-24.html 12:06:42 <_8david> hmm. Bisected various FFI errors down to 1.0.24.48, when jsnell changed return value sign extension for gcc's ABI change. Still in the dark as to where my FFI code is affected by it. 12:11:27 ruepel0r [n=rue@77-21-138-135-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:15:20 voidpointer [i=bd6fd10d@gateway/web/freenode/x-rfzsthvnjkpijgnu] has joined #lisp 12:18:32 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-56-201.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:20:51 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-56-201.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:21:05 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-56-201.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:22:12 -!- hadronzoo [n=user@209.30.43.127] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:22:47 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:22:49 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 12:28:46 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:28:47 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-56-201.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:29:44 puppyfans [n=hirc2000@122.245.112.2] has joined #lisp 12:30:07 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-51-150.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:31:12 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-56-201.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:33:44 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 12:34:44 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@167.206.154.26] has quit ["leaving"] 12:35:56 lisppaste: url? 12:35:57 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 12:35:58 ASau, memo from foof: thanks! 12:37:35 ASau pasted "SBCL fails to bootstrap" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89205 12:38:34 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@77-21-138-135-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:39:22 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:41:03 SBCL problem on NetBSD: http://paste.lisp.org/+1WTX 12:41:25 I'll try to resend mail. 12:41:39 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 12:42:20 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-56-201.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:44:04 -!- voidpointer [i=bd6fd10d@gateway/web/freenode/x-rfzsthvnjkpijgnu] has quit ["Page closed"] 12:45:12 ak70 [n=user@195.158.95.192] has joined #lisp 12:45:20 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:47:35 "Commands which open an Xref buffer (in particular M-?) do not select that buffer anymore" -- i personally don't like it, and i couldn't get to like other such window management changes in slime that don't select the popped up window... 12:49:32 ruediger [n=ruediger@93-82-11-14.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:49:56 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:51:07 -!- h3 [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:51:16 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 12:51:58 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 12:53:09 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:54:49 ak70` [n=user@195.158.95.192] has joined #lisp 12:56:54 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633767.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:58:55 ferada [n=user@e179239100.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:59:00 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:01:33 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:02:26 -!- ak70 [n=user@195.158.95.192] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:02:38 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:03:21 -!- egoz [n=Egoz@125.163.26.108] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:05:59 jewel [n=jewel@41.247.195.12] has joined #lisp 13:06:14 Says the one who did the same for slime-fuzzy way back when 13:06:23 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:44 _YKY_ [i=YKY@119.237.170.117] has joined #lisp 13:10:43 _mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.177] has joined #lisp 13:10:45 <_YKY_> It's not possible to go from a node to its parent in a tree? (assume the tree is conventionally represented) 13:10:50 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.177] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:11:20 right. the information doesn't exist 13:11:29 <_YKY_> Oh... 13:11:49 if you're doing an explicit recursive tree-walk then you can keep a stack of ancestors 13:11:51 <_YKY_> So I may need to use double links or some such? 13:12:22 e.g. (defun walk (tree &optional ancestors) ... (walk (car tree) (cons tree ancestors)) ...) 13:12:52 -!- ziga` [n=ziga`@89.143.132.102] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:12:53 (works just as well if the tree isn't made of conses) 13:13:44 <_YKY_> What does that cons do above? 13:13:52 the second arg to walk is a list of the parents seen, in reverse order 13:13:52 Axius [n=ojof@92.82.75.22] has joined #lisp 13:14:08 that cons constructs it as appropriate 13:14:34 <_YKY_> Hmmm...' 13:14:52 <_YKY_> But suppose I need to go from child to parent any time 13:14:52 but if you want to start *only* with some node and find its parent, you need double links 13:15:09 <_YKY_> Yeah 13:15:27 <_YKY_> I was wondering if there's a more elegant solution 13:15:32 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:15:51 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 13:15:56 <_YKY_> I was wondering if there's a more elegant solution 13:16:13 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:17:47 _YKY_: depends on the application 13:18:22 <_YKY_> It's a theorem prover and its search tree 13:20:45 use control flow-based backtracking, then 13:21:05 nothing more straightforward than that 13:21:07 that supposes you're using a depth-first search of some sort 13:21:16 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:21:16 yeah 13:21:20 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.82.75.22] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:21:25 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:21:26 -!- ejs [n=eugen@91.124.204.75] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:22:46 <_YKY_> It's best-first search... 13:23:19 <_YKY_> Moreover I need to retain more parts of the search tree than usual 13:23:42 <_YKY_> Well I guess double links are more straightforward 13:24:55 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 13:28:10 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 13:29:06 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:29:16 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:29:17 hsaliak_ [n=hsaliak@cm34.sigma72.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:30:45 -!- dandersen is now known as dkcl 13:31:20 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #lisp 13:31:43 -!- nullman` [n=nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:32:04 -!- sykopomp [n=root@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:32:45 nullman [n=nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:12 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 13:34:57 Axius [n=ojof@92.82.75.22] has joined #lisp 13:37:46 sykopomp [n=root@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 13:39:27 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-73-155.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:09 ElSuperDragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 13:44:28 -!- ak70` [n=user@195.158.95.192] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:45:34 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.165.8] has joined #lisp 13:47:01 fjji [n=ojof@92.82.65.122] has joined #lisp 13:47:10 -!- fjji [n=ojof@92.82.65.122] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:47:18 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@76.170.134.79] has quit ["night"] 13:57:35 Paczesiowa [n=paczesio@77-254-118-197.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 13:57:35 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:57:58 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:58:14 -!- tomoyuki28jp` [n=tomoyuki@y225198.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:59:51 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:02:16 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-239-57.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:02:23 rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-239-57.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 14:02:40 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.82.75.22] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:07:24 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 14:08:58 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 14:08:58 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:08:58 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:09:23 GrumpyBear [n=rewt@97.121.35.215] has joined #lisp 14:09:33 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:11:32 noob question: so I have this .lisp file, and I want to run it... I know for a fact that I have a lisp interpter on this box somewhere, because I can run axiom, but I simply do not know what it is called or what the command is orz 14:11:52 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:12:03 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:16 nkk [n=nkk@unaffiliated/nkk] has joined #lisp 14:12:36 <_3b> GrumpyBear: axiom might be an executable 14:12:47 GrumpyBear: check axiom package or whatever 14:13:02 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 14:13:08 <_3b> GrumpyBear: check for sbcl, cmucl, clisp, ccl 14:13:33 okay I have none of those :P 14:13:36 <_3b> GrumpyBear: or ecl, gcl 14:13:49 nope, not those either 14:13:56 which one should I use? :P 14:13:56 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:14:10 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:14:11 *_3b* uses sbcl, sometimes ccl 14:15:16 <_3b> GrumpyBear: what os/platform are you using? 14:15:37 linux/gentoo 14:15:47 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:15:50 I'm trying to run this: http://heavymeta.org/~wiseman/mazes/ 14:16:02 I don't know what quickdraw is, but I'm hoping it's not specific to macs :P 14:16:23 <_3b> yeah, quickdraw is probably mac specific :( 14:16:25 a quick google search reveals that it is :( 14:16:44 it's just the algorithm I'm interested in though :P 14:19:34 -!- benny [n=benny@87.122.24.38] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:21:51 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.72.35] has joined #lisp 14:21:51 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:22:16 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:22:48 <_3b> yeah, from a quick look at it, aside from the quickdraw stuff, any CL implementation should work 14:23:10 <_3b> not sure how hard the q3 stuff would be to remove 14:24:32 _3b: http://www.lemonodor.com/archives/000001.html 14:25:55 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:26:25 ASau [n=user@91.76.59.112] has joined #lisp 14:26:30 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:27:25 -!- ElSuperDragon is now known as ElDragonLies 14:28:44 ak70 [n=user@195.158.89.236] has joined #lisp 14:29:30 *_3b* is tempted to try to port that to webgl now 14:29:41 *_3b* needs to work on other things though :p 14:31:20 -!- nkk [n=nkk@unaffiliated/nkk] has left #lisp 14:32:39 -!- ASau [n=user@91.76.59.112] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:32:47 -!- rusoc [n=hendrix@host-85-118-227-114.academ.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:33:06 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:36:46 -!- colin__ [n=colin@118-160-195-162.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:38:25 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.254.207] has joined #lisp 14:39:39 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.192.23] has joined #lisp 14:39:50 hendrix [n=hendrix@host-85-118-227-114.academ.org] has joined #lisp 14:39:51 tomoyuki28jp` [n=tomoyuki@EM114-48-37-49.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:41:27 _3b: There are only a few symbols used from quickdraw-3D: q3:create-display-group q3:qd3d-viewer-window q3:create-attribute-set q3:create-box q3:create-display-group q3:create-line q3:group-add q3:object-attribute-set-add q3:render-view 14:42:13 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:42:33 <_3b> pjb: yeah, i was just too lazy to determine whether they were in anything important, or just in display routines (i suspect the latter though) 14:42:46 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:44:14 hello, lisp noob here, how do I tell clisp where to look for installed packages? 14:44:46 My package depends on lots of other packages, so it takes long time to install all the dependencies with asdf-install. The easiest way to make it easy/fast to install is including all the depending libraries in the package? 14:44:49 Paczesiowa: CUSTOM:*LOAD-PATHS* 14:45:15 -!- hendrix [n=hendrix@host-85-118-227-114.academ.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:45:38 Paczesiowa: Unless you want to use ASDF and you mean asdf systems instead of installed packages. 14:47:39 pjb: yeah, that one. I have /usr/share/common-lisp/systems/series.asd but (SERIES::INSTALL) fails 14:48:03 hendrix [n=hendrix@host-85-118-227-114.academ.org] has joined #lisp 14:48:04 Paczesiowa: first load asdf. 14:48:10 Are you on gentoo? 14:48:40 pjb: yes 14:48:51 Axius [n=ojof@92.85.208.221] has joined #lisp 14:49:15 The you could put (load #P"/etc/gentoo-init.lisp") in ~/.clisprc 14:49:20 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.192.23] has quit [] 14:49:37 Can anybody answer my question? 14:49:52 tomoyuki28jp`: the answer is: yes. 14:50:10 tomoyuki28jp`: moreover, it ensures your application keep working when the dependencies change! 14:50:35 Paczesiowa: then you can use (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :series) to load the series system. 14:50:40 pjb: I see. thanks for the info! 14:50:46 *_3b* would say make a separate package for dependencies rather than including deps in main package though 14:51:08 pjb: thanks, works now 14:51:16 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:51:23 tomoyuki28jp`: also if your dependencies are included in LibCL,you can use that. A pre-packaged dependencies library. 14:53:17 http://libcl.com/ LibCL -- Libraries for Common Lisp 14:53:42 I have to wonder at your target user base. They have a CL implementation and know how to use asdf-install, but will balk at the dependencies -- a one-time cost, that is if they don't already have them installed --? 14:54:18 pjb: I am taking a look at it, thanks a lot for the info. I appreciate it. 14:54:19 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:54:29 pkhuong: well, there may be the problem of different versions of dependncies... 14:54:52 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:55:02 pkhuong: There are "experienced" Common Lisper who complain about the incredible burden of having to download different unit test frameworks 14:55:37 (automatically via asdf-install) 14:55:56 tcr: sure... but will they not also complain about the same frameworks even if they're bundled? 14:56:22 pkhuong: Few non-lispers tried to install my package and they claimed it's hard to install. (hell of dependency installation.) They installed cl implementation for my package. 14:56:22 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:56:25 Bundles can arrange so they never notice ;) 14:57:10 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:57:58 Is Clisp a implementation of Lisp? 14:58:43 Axius: yes. 14:59:32 p0a [n=user@athedsl-376035.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:59:38 Hello 14:59:53 tomoyuki28jp`: I'd bundle the source for the program and all the dependencies and an executable image for the most likely platform (e.g. linux/x86). 15:00:18 I was looking at the mcclim projects screenshots 15:00:19 http://mcclim.cliki.net/Screenshot 15:00:26 For example, http://jlr.freeshell.org/data/mcclim/screenshots/2007-03-27-listener-light-4.png 15:00:42 These are displayed on the listener 15:01:15 does that mean mcclim is GUI on the listener (it doesn't make much sense to me either), or that this person has somehow made a listener that also acts as a WM? :S 15:01:24 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:01:47 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:01:58 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 15:01:59 What program is that anyway, it can't be emacs 15:03:57 pkhuong: Bundling the source is making all-in-one package, correct? 15:04:02 p0a: That looks ilke the clim-listener. 15:04:45 nyef: ah, so every application written with mcclim is supposed to be launched from the clim-listener 15:04:49 ? 15:05:10 Or can you also launch these from your REPL and have a process allocate some screen space? 15:05:26 tomoyuki28jp`: yup. 15:05:42 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:05:48 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:06:04 p0a: It varies. 15:06:19 pkhuong: I agree with you. thanks. 15:06:25 nyef: Can you elaborate? 15:06:38 p0a: I've seen a pattern which involves an application entry-point which spawns a new thread just to run the application. 15:06:41 tomoyuki28jp`: there's no point in going through asdf if your target audience doesn't do lisp. 15:06:47 Call that entry-point from wherever. 15:07:00 pkhuong: yeah, right. 15:07:22 nyef: in other words, the listener is or is not mandatory to run an application in mcclim? 15:07:31 It's not mandatory by any means. 15:07:37 It's just another application. 15:07:46 Somewhat like a unix shell program in that respect. 15:08:03 Is it possible to integrate this into emacs? 15:08:16 Integrate in what sense? 15:08:38 Have emacs (GUI, not -nw obviously) do what the listener does 15:08:52 displaying X applications in one of its windowses 15:08:59 I know the DrScheme IDE can do this 15:09:00 That, I don't know. 15:09:22 It seems that that would be more an emacs question than a CLIM/McCLIM question. 15:10:08 Sounds like you want an Emacsy window manager like ratpoison or stumpwm 15:10:19 yeah I already do 15:10:19 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:10:38 nyef: So how does one start learning mcclim? Should I just read http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/index.html ? 15:10:53 there's a tutorial that comes with mcclim 15:10:56 that might be a place to start 15:11:05 (and btw I was talking about this feature: http://plt-scheme.org/screenshots/graphical-syntax.jpg whose name is "graphical syntax" because these objects can be read by the listener too) 15:11:09 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-29-48.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:11:16 Krystof: hadn't noticed 15:11:24 I'll try that first 15:12:48 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:12:51 hmmm... mcclim is windows only isn't it? 15:12:54 no 15:13:25 sigh. I read "currently works on X Windows" as something different... I need sleep too ;-) 15:13:36 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 15:13:59 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:14 lol 15:16:36 cid [n=stuart@91-66-216-243-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:17:03 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.85.208.221] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:17:51 Krystof (you're the closest physicist ;): do you know if some non-linear optimisation routines offer hooks to specialise the objective functions during, e.g., the line search? 15:18:37 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:18:56 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:20:57 -!- hendrix [n=hendrix@host-85-118-227-114.academ.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:21:07 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 15:21:22 hendrix [n=hendrix@host-85-118-227-114.academ.org] has joined #lisp 15:23:45 brill [n=brill@0x5da22faa.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.hrnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:24:58 Downloading package flexichain, required by clim-basic: The value "flexichain" is not of type SYMBOL. 15:25:50 is anyone familiar with series package (preferably internals)? 15:25:50 Had this error when I did (asdf-install:install 'mcclim). Also some error about "flexichain" not matching version 1.5.1 15:25:50 should I just install flexichain manually? 15:26:34 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:27:23 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@ram94-7-82-232-191-53.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:27:38 Ppjet6 [n=ppjet@ram94-7-82-232-191-53.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:59 Axius [n=ojof@92.85.208.221] has joined #lisp 15:29:03 Did that, now I've got a new error, erred while invoking # on # 15:31:20 p0a: Your first mistake was in using asdf-install. 15:31:33 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:31:33 The only way I have found to install mcclim is to use clbuild. 15:31:55 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 15:32:40 :( 15:33:20 As a general rule, don't use asdf-install. 15:33:39 -!- GrumpyBear [n=rewt@97.121.35.215] has left #lisp 15:33:44 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:33:52 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-215-154.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:21 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-376035.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["meh"] 15:34:48 -!- puppyfans [n=hirc2000@122.245.112.2] has quit [Client Quit] 15:36:50 -!- cid [n=stuart@91-66-216-243-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:38:32 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 15:38:32 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:39:02 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:39:50 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.85.208.221] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:41:24 Axiom builds (at least FriCAS and OpenAxiom do) so, that you don't need Lisp to run it. 15:41:28 -!- tomoyuki28jp` [n=tomoyuki@EM114-48-37-49.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:41:36 It is embedded. 15:41:46 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:43:33 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:44:01 pkhuong: I am a theorist! Silly, asking me questions like that 15:44:56 most of what I know about optimization comes from "Numerical Optimization" by some authors who I can't remember 15:45:07 I found a bootleg or possibly a final draft online 15:45:15 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:45:29 sorry about that! We'll how calling COMPILE in the middle of each iteration does later in november then. 15:48:18 the problem with relativity as a discipline is that it is the ultimate in non-transferrable skills 15:48:48 "wow, you can compute Christoffel symbols". I learnt a lot during my PhD, but all the thesis-related stuff is pretty unused 15:49:35 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:50:26 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:50:54 KatrinaTheLamia [n=rot13@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:56 benny [n=benny@i577A1263.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:50:56 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-183-99-177.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:51:10 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-183-99-177.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:30 pkhuong: why do you want to change objective function during the search? 15:52:36 (Also, "line search" suggests that you assume smth like Hooke--Jeeves method.) 15:54:31 ASau: not change, specialise. I'm actually assuming a convex differentiable (twice) function, with access to the value and the gradient, for a BFGS method. 15:54:56 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:55:03 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 15:55:55 Once the direction of the line search has been fixed, it can become much cheaper to compute the function (and especially its derivative) for a given step. 15:58:08 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.135.214] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:00:40 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:01:14 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:02:27 tic [n=tic@c83-249-195-29.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:02:52 nipra [n=nipra@117.195.99.19] has joined #lisp 16:02:58 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 16:03:06 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:11:46 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 16:11:46 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:12:10 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:12:14 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 16:13:53 -!- brill [n=brill@0x5da22faa.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.hrnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:14:55 ropert [n=user@CPE00222d12ee72-CM00222d12ee6e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:17:09 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:20:03 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:22:54 z4v [n=tmh@18987153227.nit.megazon.com.br] has joined #lisp 16:22:54 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:23:16 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:23:17 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 16:24:04 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-98-210-236-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:24:17 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:30:19 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:32:51 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:39:10 ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-145-61.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:57 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-52.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 16:40:13 nyquist [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 16:42:39 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:43:49 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:43:52 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-145-61.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:44:01 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:44:31 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-70-226-85-68.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:47:58 ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-157-25.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:59 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:48:11 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 16:48:12 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 16:49:14 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-215-154.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:51:53 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:52:53 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:52:56 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 16:53:10 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-157-25.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:54:11 -!- z4v [n=tmh@18987153227.nit.megazon.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:56:21 is anyone implementing common lisp in C#? I notice there is RDNZL, which is managed C++ 16:57:19 Guthur: I had some luck with Foil some years ago 16:58:09 arbscht: i'll check it out 16:58:11 cheers 16:58:46 ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.135.161] has joined #lisp 16:59:36 -!- ropert [n=user@CPE00222d12ee72-CM00222d12ee6e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:01:55 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:01:58 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:02:55 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:03:10 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:03:20 Guthur: joe marshall is writing a lot about implementing Scheme in C# 17:03:38 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:03:41 It's interesting. CL seems like it would be a similar challenge with the extra CL bits added. 17:04:46 Xach ya i seen some mention of scheme implementation i suppose i was being a tad bias and wanting CL 17:05:29 Xach: it's an efficient interpreter... different design parameters than a compiler, although, with a JIT, there might be some new interesting options. 17:07:43 Guthur: there was some work for CL-in-.NET (named afaik IronLisp), but it was abandoned, the author now works on IronScheme 17:07:55 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:08:23 ASau [n=user@91.76.59.112] has joined #lisp 17:09:08 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:09:21 i was hoping specifically for implementation completely C#, the reason being is the XNA framework, everything has to be in C# to target that. 17:09:48 i was just drifting through some game dev sites and thought it would be cool to code in CL in the xbox 360 17:10:01 in the/on the 17:10:33 Guthur: why does it have to be C#? Can't it be arbitrary CLR bytecode that keeps to XNA runtime? 17:10:33 no immediate need though, just interested 17:11:59 One student developed a fairly complete scheme (continuations, closures, etc) compiler from scratch for .NET in one semester last year. 17:12:03 well it has to be fully managed, which rules out C++, i'm not sure if you can run the CLR code directly, need to read up on that, but i do remember that with the current setup C# is mandatory 17:12:31 current XNA setup 17:12:44 Guthur: nope, you can emit CLR code easily - Managed C++ is kinda obscure mix 17:13:40 the target platform doesn't really recognise the language used (I recall a project where despite me using C#, I had a ton of VB.NET libs and types inside classes) 17:14:29 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:14:31 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 17:14:45 p_l oh of course thats a great advantage of the CLR, just not sure if the xbox is special, i know they said c++ is a no go, but you mention its a mix anyway 17:15:43 Guthur: C++ is no go, because you can't compile it without XBox SDK anyway, so afaik they didn't bother with adding support for it on XBox 17:15:44 -!- ASau [n=user@91.76.59.112] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:16:03 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:16:45 there exist a possibility that XNA on Xbox supports C++, but probably you'd need weird stuff to avoid paying extraordinary fees for full native XBox 360 devkit 17:17:22 afaik, the 64bit PPC compiler isn't easily available from MS :P 17:18:01 (it's still possible to get Alpha, MIPS, ARM and few others, afaik. Alpha being slightly... outdated) 17:18:06 p_l ya official console dev stuff is usually quite pricey 17:18:54 Guthur: well, in theory, PS3 isn't that expensive for starting your project if you can deal with software emulation of gpu 17:19:31 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.72.35] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:19:56 then you can try getting the keys to unlock the GPU 17:20:02 and c++ would be an option there 17:20:55 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:21:18 well, PS3 is single(or two? don't remember) ppc970-compatible cpus + 6 vector units + whatever is inside that graphic chip... 17:22:25 XBox 360 is 3 physical (9 virtual) modified 64bit PPC cpus + graphic chip 17:23:18 i know they say PS3 is a pain to program for, but maybe thats just to justify bumping up the prices 17:23:38 p_l: A single dual-issue PPC and a regular ATI GPU. 17:24:14 pkhuong: in Xbox? 17:24:19 p_l: no, PS3. 17:24:34 ah. Wasn't PS3's gpu from nVidia, though? 17:24:48 while Xbox 360 had an ati? 17:25:24 right, it's the next generation that'll probably be all ATI. 17:28:13 i was reading somewhere that MS have the next gen ready, just might wait until after the economic downturn 17:29:14 would be ready for 2010, but they might wait until the following year or something, it will probably have a similar XNA setup i'd imagine 17:30:01 -!- hendrix [n=hendrix@host-85-118-227-114.academ.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:30:01 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:30:42 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:31:42 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 17:32:20 -!- demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-207-144.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:32:20 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:32:52 *p_l* heard that both MS and Sony decided not to take nVidia chips for future consoles, though he doesn't know the details 17:33:11 Quick question: it is allowed to define multiple systems in one asd file, right? 17:33:22 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:33:49 Sikander: sure, but the default search depends on filenames. 17:34:30 pkhuong: Does that mean that the asd file has to have the same name as the (first) system? 17:35:32 Sikander: not necessarily the first 17:35:48 Sikander: just the one you want to be found automatically. 17:36:03 Sikander: I'd say that asd file has to have the same name as the "interface" system, the one that "external" systems might depend on 17:36:13 whatever they use it would be nice to have CL on a console 17:36:27 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:36:31 Thanks guys 17:36:40 Guthur: SBCL has been reported to work on linux/ps3. 17:36:56 Guthur: well, there was GOAL, which was afaik also implemented in CL 17:37:12 p_l ya it was 17:37:20 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:35 there was a bad post-mortem on gamasutra about it 17:38:14 main problem seemed to be that the guy who wrote goal was the only one that knew lisp in the company 17:38:53 xan__ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:39:00 -!- Paczesiowa [n=paczesio@77-254-118-197.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:39:03 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:41:14 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:41:18 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 17:42:38 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:43:24 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 17:44:34 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 17:45:21 Krystof: Are you here? 17:45:21 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:45:48 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:46:43 Guthur: I think there were more of them - the programming team was fairly small, though 17:47:48 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp127.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:47:53 Krystof: If you are, I have time now for your slime frobbage request regarding your external-format work. 17:48:03 hendrix [n=hendrix@host-85-118-227-114.academ.org] has joined #lisp 17:48:07 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 17:49:22 p_l ya probably, its just one of this issues highlighted in the report was that any optimisations had to go through him, maybe GOAL itself was the problem as opposed to it being a lisp dialect. Only glanced over the post-mortem though 17:49:30 this/the 17:49:31 chris2 [n=chris@91.22.173.167] has joined #lisp 17:51:10 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-51-150.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:52:08 Guthur: sounds like the issue is more one of experience in compiler hacking than with Lisp itself. 17:52:23 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 17:52:23 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:52:26 do function calls in a for-as-across loop construct get evaluate each time eg. loop for x across vec from 0 (length vec) 17:52:52 is that only evaluate once? 17:53:06 that doesn't parse for a start :) 17:53:12 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:53:25 tcr ya i was trying to be brief 17:53:39 Guthur: you went a bit overboard here. 17:54:03 ya the 'to' was meant to be in there 17:54:09 that was typo 17:54:56 Guthur: still doesn't parse... 17:55:05 Nshag [n=shag@Mix-Orleans-106-1-193.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:55:31 <_3b> Guthur: you can always macroexpand it and see 17:55:45 -!- hendrix [n=hendrix@host-85-118-227-114.academ.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:56:18 _3b well that would be something new so worth a go... 17:56:52 move cursor in front of the expression you want to expand and press C-c C-m 17:57:48 you can expand again in the buffer that pops up, and can go "back" via C-/ (undo) 17:58:04 <_3b> clhs 6.1.2.1.1 17:58:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_abaa.htm 17:58:22 hendrix [n=hendrix@host-85-118-227-114.academ.org] has joined #lisp 17:58:28 <_3b> ^^ that might answer your question, if i'm guessing what you asked correctly 17:58:52 _3b ya thats pretty much it 17:59:10 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:59:29 cheers 18:01:47 <_3b> yay, 26 tests passed, 0 failed, now i just have to add all the rest of the tests 18:02:36 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 18:03:16 -!- xan__ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:03:28 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:05:05 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 18:07:23 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-66-31-18-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:00 caoliver [i=c66cc528@gateway/web/freenode/x-hzbyksmgsqbjtqfb] has joined #lisp 18:12:31 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-52.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 18:12:59 Guthur: I recall that the company itself claimed that they had a lot of leverage thanks to GOAL, but Sony was flabbergasted after the acquisition :P 18:15:00 antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 18:15:00 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:15:20 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:15:23 ASau [n=user@91.76.59.112] has joined #lisp 18:15:35 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:18:08 loop is giving me a sore head 18:19:35 *tic* misread that. 18:21:18 -!- hendrix [n=hendrix@host-85-118-227-114.academ.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:21:51 if it works it will be sweet, but i'm very doubtful 18:23:30 hendrix [n=hendrix@host-85-118-227-114.academ.org] has joined #lisp 18:24:32 -!- dkcl is now known as dandersen 18:25:08 -!- hendrix [n=hendrix@host-85-118-227-114.academ.org] has quit [Operation timed out] 18:25:48 hendrix [n=hendrix@host-85-118-227-114.academ.org] has joined #lisp 18:26:41 Typing (map 'string #'code-char '(56022)) in the Slime REPL on SBCL causes a character encoding error 18:26:41 -!- ASau [n=user@91.76.59.112] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:27:05 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:27:07 anyone brave enough to confirm that? 18:28:42 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.72.35] has joined #lisp 18:28:55 Looks like it (end of file on the socket). 18:28:57 <[df]> same here 18:28:59 <[df]> the character with code 56022 cannot be encoded 18:29:29 So all I need now is Krystof 18:29:43 arne [n=arnee@89.182.11.105] has joined #lisp 18:29:46 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:31:54 Axius [n=ojof@92.85.22.251] has joined #lisp 18:33:23 [df] You're on Krystof's external-format branch? 18:33:50 unbelievably i think it worked 18:34:09 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:34:53 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:34:55 go crazy doubly nested loop accumulation madness 18:35:31 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:35:36 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:04 <[df]> tcr: nope, mainline 18:36:09 <[df]> and probably not very up to date 18:36:34 That's funny I get that error on his branch, but not on stock sbcl 18:37:02 -!- arnee [n=arnee@89.182.2.88] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:37:02 -!- arne is now known as arnee 18:37:08 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.85.22.251] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:37:23 Axius [n=ojof@92.85.22.251] has joined #lisp 18:38:20 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:38:40 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:39:59 Hm, seems like (open "/proc/self/fd/1") doesn't work 18:40:29 tcr: not a good idea, use dup 18:40:30 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:40:48 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:41:29 well I want to get the fd of stdout first :) 18:42:14 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.162.32] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:42:19 *tcr* probably should use sb-posix 18:42:21 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.162.32] has joined #lisp 18:42:53 tcr: (sb-sys:fd-stream-fd sb-sys:*stdout*) ? 18:43:33 afk 18:43:48 *Krystof* appears 18:43:53 WHO SUMMONS ME? 18:44:28 tcr: o hai 18:44:59 I'm string to get a character-output-stream with an external-format of :utf-8 18:45:03 I'm trying 18:45:23 TR2N [i=email@89.180.139.23] has joined #lisp 18:45:53 so, there's some reason that (open pathname :direction :output :external-format :utf-8) doesn't work? 18:46:41 Well I wanted to see the stuff right away so I thought to misuse stdout for that. Perhaps that was a totally bogus idea 18:47:00 if the question relates to the character with codepoint 56022: that character is not encodable using utf-8 18:47:09 -!- nyquist [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:47:18 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 18:47:32 tcr: is *standard-output* not already in utf-8? Oh, on my branch it's in utf-8 :replacement #\replacement_character 18:47:56 Right, I wanted to reproduce that error on some stream which I can handle more easier than a socket 18:48:19 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 18:48:47 tcr: the thing is, I think that even if you get sbcl to encode that as pseudo-utf8, the emacs utf-8 decoder rejects it 18:48:51 I'm guessing here 18:48:56 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-66-31-18-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:49:30 I have no particular knowledge of the matter at hand, but I assumed that you can put each (code-char foo) for foo in (integer 0 (,char-code-limit)) into a string 18:49:43 Why is that assumption wrong? 18:50:41 Or probably you can put it into a string (lisp-wise), but you cannot expect the character to be encodable? 18:51:48 *tcr* will read the wikipedia entry for utf-8 now 18:51:52 you can put them into a string, but they are not all encodable, yes 18:52:25 what I would enviseage doing with slime is using a replacement encoding for its connection to sbcl 18:52:51 just using (:utf-8 :replacement #\replacement_character) instead of utf-8 should stop the horrible disconnects 18:52:52 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:52:57 but I thought utf-8 was total? Or does (code-char 56022) not represent a valid unicode character? 18:53:13 the latter, kind of 18:53:14 it's complicated 18:53:26 ASau [n=user@91.76.59.112] has joined #lisp 18:53:32 piso [n=peter@98.176.79.151] has joined #lisp 18:53:38 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 18:53:41 xan__ [n=xan@62.78.225.40] has joined #lisp 18:53:47 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:53:50 utf-8 is total over Unicode code points, which is not the same as total over the #x110000 code points 18:54:00 no, sorry, rubbish 18:54:11 utf-8 is total over Unicode characters, which is not the same as total over Unicode code points 18:54:27 Ok 18:54:58 the :replacement thing should not be difficult 18:55:04 Krystof: a priori, it can be encoded in UTF-8. 18:55:19 there's scope to be cleverer than just using a constant replacement character: if instead you basically implement UTF-8B using the handlers, that might be neat 18:55:38 pkhuong: no, it can't: the sequences corresponding to surrogates are invalid utf-8 18:56:27 -!- ASau [n=user@91.76.59.112] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:56:38 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:57:15 fatalnix [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:11 Just trying to confirm, both (list 1 2 3) and 7 are s-expressions? 18:58:12 fatalnix, memo from Adlai: There are of course existing implementations that run on a variety of operating systems -- check out SBCL and CCL for two good open-source options. 18:58:31 Hey that's pretty cool. 18:58:37 fatalnix: Yes they are. 18:58:45 -!- xan__ [n=xan@62.78.225.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:59:35 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:59:45 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:59:47 Krystof: surrogates are D800-DFFF. 18:59:57 fatalnix: The first one is a compound expression that happens to represent a function call (because `list' is the name of a function). The second one is self-evaluating. 19:00:37 ah, that makes sense 19:00:37 I guess there is not some kind of standard unicode character for a non-displayable character? 19:00:48 I'm still getting used to this (funtion arg1 arg2) thing.. 19:01:20 So used to void main() { for (;;); } ... 19:01:21 they are "noncharacters", though. What should that mean, practically? 19:02:32 Krystof: Is STREAM-ELEMENT-TYPE supposed to return (:UTF-8 :REPLACEMENT ...), or just :UTF-8 on such a stream? 19:02:49 SBCL devs having fascist tendencies, I suppose "these noncharacters should never be included in text interchange between implementations" says the implementation is right. 19:04:22 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:04:52 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:05:25 Ok the answer to my question is that it should return the cons 19:06:39 I have been long waiting for a language that could recognize ratios the way lisp seems to, at least from what I am reading. 19:06:45 Strav [n=user@25-79.162.dsl.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 19:06:54 Guess I never looked hard enough ;) 19:07:38 fatalnix: Yes, ratio is a built-in type in Common Lisp. It is common for people to ignore Lisp for superficial reasons, so they miss out on one of the most powerful general-purpose languages out there. 19:08:12 so if I divide 1/4 by 1/2 I should get 1/8? 19:08:17 or, 19:08:27 (code-char #xfffd) is called #\REPLACEMENT_CHARACTER so that seems like a good choice, doesn't it? 19:08:27 thats wrong.. doh! 19:08:32 Any way I can clear the repl from every user-defined stuff? (would most likely want to reload the user package or something) 19:08:33 doh, indeed. 19:08:45 multiply, I menat 19:08:48 meant* 19:08:53 Strav: Do you use Slime? 19:08:54 fatalnix: try it out. 19:09:17 tcr: yep, I was just browsing the info... 19:09:24 That is so cool! 19:09:41 Strav: ,restart-inferior-lisp (or just ,restart) at the repl 19:09:49 I so want to make a caching lisp interpreter for my irc bot. 19:10:22 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.135.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:10:24 use lisp to do it, unfortunately, Its way too early for that. 19:10:25 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:10:36 tcr: I was kinda looking for a way to avoid restarting... but this way is quick enough too. 19:10:37 tcr: stream-external-format 19:11:00 ASau [n=user@91.76.59.112] has joined #lisp 19:11:08 stream-element-type should return 'character 19:11:11 tcr: thanks. 19:11:25 Krystof: Oh sorry yeah of course 19:11:42 -!- Strav [n=user@25-79.162.dsl.aei.ca] has left #lisp 19:12:00 Oh, and I'm guessing lisp doesnt have the double to int conversion problems, I think it was when you divide something like 1.5 by 2 you get 1 instead of 0.75 by using 2.0 19:12:26 Krystof: What can I reader conditionalize the presence of :replacement on? 19:12:50 I have #+(with-symbol "FOO" "PACKAGE") available 19:13:10 pkhuong: regarding ill-formedness of utf-8 sequences encoding surrogates, I refer you to section 3.9 of the Unicode standard 19:13:11 fatalnix: I think you may have gotten that wrong, but in Lisp, if you divide 1 by 2, you get 1/2 exactly. 19:13:51 I have honestly never tried it but my old c++ book warned me about it 19:13:56 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:14:20 tcr: for now, probably SB-IMPL::WRAP-EXTERNAL-FORMAT-FUNCTIONS 19:14:28 wow. 19:14:33 fatalnix: I think (but I might remember wrong) that in C and C++, if you divide two integer values, you get integer division, so 1 divided by 2 is 0. 19:14:37 fatalnix: ratios are very neat. Say you're playing with finite differences. If your n points are rational, you can get exact coefficients for the n-1 degree poly that passes throught them. 19:14:50 s/throught/through/ 19:15:21 that's pretty neat 19:15:41 do irrational numbers work as well? 19:15:59 ill try 19:16:27 i have to add a 0, or else it comes to 1/3, which is very useful 19:16:32 No. Floats suffer from all the ills that floats are heir to. 19:16:37 irrational numbers? 19:16:44 like Pi 19:16:57 dividing 1.0 by 3.0, etc 19:16:58 Which can be only approximated in finite storage. 19:17:16 yeah 19:17:19 Lisp uses essentially the same floating-point approximations that other langauges do. 19:17:35 Yep. Hardware floats. 19:17:38 well it should depend on your processors capabilities, correct? 19:17:42 caoliver: You can represent pi with a finite representation. 19:17:46 -!- smackara` [n=user@91.190.137.166] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:18:29 I just played around with that Machin approximation code that was floating around a while back. It's a neat alternative idea for hardware floats. 19:19:28 I've never done a signficand that way. (I went to a nth tier school for poor valus of n.) 19:19:54 s/for hardware/to hardware/ 19:21:00 tcr pasted "for Krystof: swank-sbcl patch" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89216 19:21:17 http://en.literateprograms.org/Pi_with_Machin%27s_formula_%28Lisp%29 19:21:50 -!- hendrix [n=hendrix@host-85-118-227-114.academ.org] has quit ["    (xchat 2.4.5  )"] 19:22:39 -!- ASau [n=user@91.76.59.112] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:23:12 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:24:12 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 19:24:57 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:25:20 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:25:36 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-75-51.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:25:48 Krystof: The patch probably must als conditionalize on sb-unicode, otherwise non-unicode-enabled sbcls will probably choke on the literal #\replacement_character 19:26:00 -!- arnee [n=arnee@89.182.11.105] has quit [] 19:27:08 I think you're right 19:27:08 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:27:16 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:27:24 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:27:28 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 19:27:44 I hope that fixes some ways of crashing the slime communication 19:28:06 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-75-51.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:28:13 (it's of course not perfect, because we probably want a way of losslessly fixing the errors in principle 19:28:22 but doing that right might involve a lot of hacking) 19:29:30 -!- vreSekaC is now known as Elench 19:29:30 What could be done instead on the exemplary case above? 19:30:20 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:30:31 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:30:38 ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.135.50] has joined #lisp 19:33:45 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:46 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 19:35:39 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:35:41 -!- sah0s [n=anto@87.221.134.10] has quit [] 19:35:42 drag`` [n=user@82.113.106.147] has joined #lisp 19:36:21 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:36:29 -!- antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 19:37:30 -!- drag` [n=user@82.113.106.82] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:38:07 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:38:16 tcr: it depends on emacs's character model 19:38:30 (which of course will differ between 21, 22, 23, xemacs, etc) 19:38:52 tcr: so, does up/down and space/enter keys do the same as if i was in the xref buffer? because with fuzzy they do, so it's not a fair comparison... 19:39:47 -!- dandersen is now known as dkcl 19:39:47 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:40:10 Krystof: Is there a predicate which tells me whether a character is encodable in some external-format? 19:40:26 but one thing we could use is an external format such as UCS-4, in which all Unicode codepoints are encodable 19:42:14 ASau [n=user@91.76.59.112] has joined #lisp 19:42:27 lol! i just asked minion for advice #11904 19:42:37 I can't stop laughing 19:43:25 attila_lendvai: I find myself more productive once I updated my muscle memories 19:43:39 minion: advice #11904 19:43:40 Who the fuck cares which one is faster? 19:46:20 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:46:30 I just didnt expect that for advice heh 19:47:37 milanj [n=milan@93.87.181.21] has joined #lisp 19:48:08 holy crap minion talks. 19:50:01 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-4-121.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:51:00 quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has joined #lisp 19:51:58 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 19:51:58 -!- ASau [n=user@91.76.59.112] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:52:09 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-24-36.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:52:25 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:52:26 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:53:20 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 19:53:22 <_YKY_> I tried to store a reference to a tree node in another node of the same tree... but it caused stack overflow 19:53:38 <_YKY_> What's the right way to do it? 19:53:59 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.85.22.251] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:54:17 vent912 [n=vent912@c-24-0-153-83.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:51 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 19:56:04 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@188-23-69-237.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:56:04 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:56:33 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:56:46 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-93193.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 19:56:57 _YKY_: set *print-circle* to t 19:57:41 ziga` [n=ziga`@BSN-143-132-102.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:05 how to message minion again? 19:58:17 <_YKY_> Oh thanks 19:58:29 <_YKY_> So the stack overflow is actually caused by the printing 19:58:32 Guthur: /msg minion ... 19:58:47 umm thought that, i must be doing something wrong 19:59:11 Krystof: Perhaps it would make sense to provide a way to have it print a warning each time a character is replacement. 19:59:18 ah there we go, thanks beach 19:59:33 i was puting in a colon 19:59:49 No problem. 19:59:58 Krystof: I think one could do that on his own by handling the appropriate errors and invoking the appropriate restart, but: 20:00:30 Krystof: for example in case of slime, that's not architecturally not really possible 20:00:35 -!- nipra [n=nipra@117.195.99.19] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:00:46 (one not too much) 20:01:50 minion: ignorance 20:01:50 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:01:50 ignorance: strength 20:01:54 hhh 20:02:21 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:05:33 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:05:34 -!- ziga` [n=ziga`@BSN-143-132-102.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:05:46 Hi, I'm creating rules that will work with missionary and cannibals engine written in lisp. Are there any good reads on the web about rules/sequence variables? Can't seem to find anything.. 20:06:48 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:06:51 Axius [n=ojof@92.85.22.251] has joined #lisp 20:06:56 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-59-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:07:01 vent912: Sounds like AI or something, right? 20:07:36 Yes, maybe I'm in the wrong chat. But figured I could start here.. 20:07:40 vent912: rule-based system? 20:07:48 tcr: right; the problem with lossy replacement is that it has the potential for wrong things happening 20:08:24 e.g. a symbol with an unencodable character gets sent to emacs, with replacement, then sent back again -- and no longer names the original symbol 20:08:42 of course, this is I think still better than crashing unrecoverably :-) 20:08:53 vent912: afaik PAIP had examples on expert systems using rules, there's also some textbook that eludes me now that uses CL as implementation language which definitely included chapter on rule based systems 20:09:47 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 20:11:08 Krystof: So is there a predicate to test a character for encodability? 20:12:47 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@93-82-11-14.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:12:54 no 20:13:36 -!- Axius [n=ojof@92.85.22.251] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:13:42 -!- drag`` [n=user@82.113.106.147] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:14:55 (I think I agree that that is a sensible thing to want) 20:15:21 Anyone have any idea why clisp could be interpreting 0D0A as #\r #\Newline while 0D0A 0D0A as #\Newline #\Newline? 20:17:00 -!- moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:17:53 vent912: I found a general book on AI that includes part on knowledge/rule/case systems (with PROLOG and Lisp as main languages, though it's quite old edition so it might require some work) 20:18:16 Krystof: the error is always signaled on (write-char ...), not possibly later on a (force-output), right? 20:19:05 vent912: interested? (I don't have time to revise the book to check if it will really help, though) 20:19:20 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.209.245] has joined #lisp 20:20:06 Ah, sorry #\r is not #\Return 20:20:12 frito [n=keithman@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 20:20:24 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:20:33 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 20:22:37 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:23:00 Yes 20:24:11 So turns out that I need such a predicate to signal a warning about the replacement 20:24:52 tcr: I am not sure, actually. 20:25:26 I think most likely on write-char; it would be pretty annoying not to get the error in a timely fashion 20:26:06 Well I was imagine that it might be more efficient to check chunks for encodability at once rather than character for character, so I better asked 20:26:12 -!- vent912 [n=vent912@c-24-0-153-83.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:26:13 imaging 20:26:17 tcr: ah, actually, you don't need such a predicate, at least not if I tell you more about the possible API 20:26:19 imagining? 20:27:25 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@213.114.170.185] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:27:49 Krystof: slime-streams are gray-streams which do buffering and chunking of data. If the buffer is full, the chunk is given to an output thread which performs the actual communication over the socket 20:28:41 swank-sbcl can hook into the gray stream and the actual socket stream 20:29:05 (handler-bind ((stream-encoding-error (lambda (c) (warn "Can't encode character with code: ~D" (character-encoding-error-code c))) (invoke-restart 'output-replacement #\replacement_character)))) ...) 20:29:07 or something 20:29:28 tcr: and it's the socket stream that does external-format conversions? 20:29:36 That's not possible because I cannot hook into the output thread 20:29:38 yes 20:29:46 bleah 20:30:06 well, the situation with sbcl is currently no worse than it is with cmucl or ccl 20:30:15 "currently" = "with your patch" 20:31:17 If there was such a predicate, I could use that within the gray stream. (which may be slightly confusing because a warning could appear before the culprit string is displayed) 20:33:06 tcr: the solution is to never output strings, but rather try to convert them to octet arrays and output those 20:33:15 rares [n=rares@130.13.176.255] has joined #lisp 20:33:24 tcr: for the currently-supported external formats, it is relatively simple to declare the ranges of encodable characters 20:34:42 fe[nl]ix: The question is if Emacs can easily cope with such input 20:35:17 the write protocol is based on (kind of) the intersection between cl:read and elisp:read ... 20:37:38 I meant that you first convert the string to an octet array, which is an implicit check for encodability 20:38:10 then, if all went well, (write-char #\") (write-sequence octets) (write-char #\") 20:38:44 -!- rares [n=rares@130.13.176.255] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:40:08 how is the conversion such an implicit check? 20:41:35 tcr: string-to-octets will signal an error when a code point can't be converted 20:46:03 That's where we are currently 20:49:04 -!- caoliver [i=c66cc528@gateway/web/freenode/x-hzbyksmgsqbjtqfb] has quit ["Page closed"] 20:49:36 tcr: but if you do that before passing to the flushing thread, you can substitute a replacement character and signal the issue to the user. 20:51:42 Yeah sure, I'd have to perform it on each character to give a meaningful warning. I can just wait for Krystof to provide such a function 20:52:05 tcr: oh yeah, *with* Krystof's work, definitely. 20:52:38 But doing the conversion before passing the buck to the autoflush thread lets you react more usefully. 20:53:46 the string is never explicitly converted to an octet sequence. Basically, it runs prin1-to-string on it and writes it to the socket 20:55:19 tcr: that's what I suggested before: to take control of your serialization 20:56:08 but that's lame. Cool is having a sufficiently-expressive hookable serialization provided for you 20:56:24 some day, we might even be able to hook into the serialization of #\Newline! 20:56:57 (actually, _output_ of #\Newline is easy, now. It's input that makes my brain unhappy) 20:58:05 Krystof: So I need a check-encoding which signals the appropriate errors and restarts 20:58:17 bleah, no, yuk 20:58:39 you need a way of specifying an external-format which will call an arbitrary function on a coding error 20:58:40 tcr: but if you let the flush thread do that, the context will be hard to recover. 20:59:30 check-encoding, as fe[nl]ix says, is just string-to-octets 20:59:52 Well (octets-to-string (string-to-octets ...)) probably 21:00:15 no, just string-to-octets 21:00:25 the restart will modify the string? 21:00:50 no, but you can't in general modify the string 21:00:57 then I don't get it 21:01:21 oh, you're still aiming to pass a string to the flusher thread? 21:02:42 it's not passed to a flusher thread, slime-output-streams are streams which pass strings to an output function 21:05:51 The architecture is pretty complicated and I have no idea for what reason. Probably because it supports 4 different communication styles 21:07:48 Krystof: And even if I can specify such a function in the external-format, I won't have any context 21:08:39 So it seems to be I'm back to (o-to-s (s-to-o)) ? 21:11:53 ok, here's another point of view: you don't want to warn anyway 21:11:56 the whole point of 21:12:04 #\replacement_character is that its appearance is a warning 21:13:40 kpreid___ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 21:13:40 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:14:22 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-73-155.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:14:53 I'm fine with that. I thought it might be a debugging aid in some cases 21:16:28 Krystof: it might be hard to catch it in a couple K chars; a warning in the minibuffer can be useful. 21:16:38 you don't need context for that 21:17:26 I thought sending the warnings to *inferior-lisp* so they can be used for post-mortem analysis :) 21:17:38 Demosthenes [n=demo@167.206.154.26] has joined #lisp 21:19:44 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 21:21:35 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:22:17 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:27:40 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:30:53 -!- s0ber_ [i=pie@114-45-231-16.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:31:42 dkcl` [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 21:31:49 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:32:14 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has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:11:06 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 22:11:30 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:11:40 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 22:13:08 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 22:13:37 -!- morphling [n=stefan@89.15.139.105] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:15:35 Guthur pasted "The groviness of loop" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89222 22:16:02 because its quite quiet and i a little chuffed with this piece 22:16:14 s/i a/i am 22:16:46 -!- [df] [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has left #lisp 22:16:55 will probably regret posting it... 22:18:06 reklama [n=s_e-b-e_@77.254.22.247] has joined #lisp 22:18:10 http://action.metaffiliation.com/suivi.php?mclic=S42665516A5D131 22:18:12 -!- reklama [n=s_e-b-e_@77.254.22.247] has left #lisp 22:19:57 fair name 22:21:04 (reklama == advertisement) 22:21:25 makes sense then 22:21:29 ferada` [n=user@e179237188.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:21:41 is that russian stassats? 22:22:16 russian has the same word, but i guess that's polish 22:22:24 that redirects to a polish site 22:22:39 reklam is also swedish for advertisement 22:22:57 reklama is also slovenian for add 22:23:20 RKLAMA is probably an old LISP function 22:23:29 LOL 22:25:04 -!- ferada` [n=user@e179237188.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:26:17 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:28:35 klama is in the gismu klama? :) 22:28:44 s/is/as 22:33:21 -!- frito [n=keithman@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:37:16 -!- ferada [n=user@e179239100.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:37:22 -!- quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:38:15 quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has joined #lisp 22:39:39 necroforest [n=jarred@pool-96-255-62-122.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:06 hmm... the only function that would rhyme in functionality with RKLAMA would be ERALIS ;-) 22:44:37 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@167.206.154.26] has quit ["leaving"] 22:46:32 Are these wierd quotes `text' used anywhere outside Lisp community? 22:48:08 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 22:48:08 it's an old, old, ascii tradition 22:48:40 also the standard for LaTeX. 22:48:41 also, within LaTeX those characters will actually be typeset as matching curly quotes 22:48:43 TeX uses it 22:48:52 So TeX and Lisp 22:48:57 mainly 22:48:58 not lisp 22:49:00 lisp doesn't use it 22:49:06 Lisp does not use balanced `' 22:49:21 It uses ` and ' as different sorts of, unbalanced, quotes 22:49:38 -!- HET2 [n=diman@80.3.31.126] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:49:57 emacs highlight it differently in docstrings. 22:50:10 The only place I've seen it besides TeX is in Maxima source code and documentation - which comes from Lisp tradition... and Elisp files. 22:50:13 s/highlight/highlights/ 22:50:30 ziga`: I stand by my statement that it's an ascii tradition, not a lisp tradition 22:51:26 ziga`: it has nothing to do with lisp. 22:51:33 sp1der [n=asdf1@h26n2fls32o895.telia.com] has joined #lisp 22:51:51 ok 22:56:33 ziga`` [n=user@BSN-142-123-220.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:47 -!- chris2 [n=chris@91.22.173.167] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:59:40 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:59:51 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 23:01:24 dandersen [n=dkcl@16.66.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 23:02:04 male_terran [n=terran@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:26 -!- cid [n=cid@91-66-216-243-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #lisp 23:03:09 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-215-154.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 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