00:02:39 illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:50 pixpop [n=pixpop@12.130.118.6] has joined #lisp 00:03:01 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-218-60.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 00:03:24 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 00:03:42 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@12.130.118.6] has quit [Client Quit] 00:04:12 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76.10.149.209] has quit [Client Quit] 00:07:04 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 00:10:14 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp031.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:12:55 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DB3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:13:05 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has quit [] 00:16:03 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-213-82.taconic.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:17:06 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:23:07 billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-213-82.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:23 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:31:00 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:36:32 rustywheeler [n=kliese@campsis.eait.uq.edu.au] has joined #lisp 00:39:31 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-nasyaeiztwgggfiz] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:43:15 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@66.92.19.253] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:46:28 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:48:47 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-19-9.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 00:49:55 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:52:52 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:55:11 -!- h3 [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:55:13 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 01:02:54 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-158-62.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:07:15 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-140-191-199.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 01:13:57 -!- HET2 [n=diman@80.3.31.126] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:16:40 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA762.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:19:01 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-88.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:20:34 -!- seamus_android [n=alistair@212.183.140.20] has quit [Client Quit] 01:20:35 WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-147-93.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:07 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:26:34 Has anyone here implemented a repl from a GUI context where the text is not given as a stream? 01:27:32 -!- sah0s [n=anto@254.134.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [] 01:28:05 I'm looking for an easy way to embed a slime-like REPL into a window's app. 01:28:44 what's the problem? read, eval, print; loop 01:30:29 -!- quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:31:28 stassats: I need to push the data to the read character by character and then respond to the debuger as well. Is there a way to use a callback function as a stream? 01:32:11 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 01:32:35 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-52.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 01:32:40 you can have gray streams, but why character by character? 01:32:43 stassats: I mean I know there is a way, I just don't know what it is. Also, if anyone knows any gotchas I would love to know them in advance. 01:32:44 clhs read-from-string 01:32:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_fro.htm 01:34:21 stassats: I get the keystrokes. Is there a read-from-pipe? 01:34:22 egoz [n=Egoz@125.163.26.108] has joined #lisp 01:34:46 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-233-236-102.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:10 you have a GUI, can't you read the whole string with it? 01:35:54 TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has joined #lisp 01:36:25 stassats: Yes, but I don't know for certain where the lisp expression ends (without reimplementing lisp). I would much rather send the repl one char at a time and let it keep track. 01:38:12 it ends where user hits the enter and all parenthesis match 01:38:26 and " too 01:38:54 WarWeasle: you can count #\( and #\) in gui even handler and send the string when you close the paren 01:39:12 brnhck [n=hrk@acurwa003240.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:39:15 or do it on enter key 01:39:34 that's what slime does, anyway 01:39:42 That will work. I just wish I could do it all in ECL. 01:40:09 Is that how slime does it? 01:41:10 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:41:14 p_l: Also, hello! 01:41:15 yes, i just said so 01:41:39 stassats: Sorry, missed that. 01:41:43 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:41:51 and yeah, hello 01:41:55 or, just read-from-string and catch the end-of-file error... 01:42:20 drewc: Ah HAH! 01:42:53 "it's easier to ask forgiveness then it is to ask permission" 01:43:52 it will be hard to differentiate between incomplete input and erroneous input 01:45:10 drewc: How would I refill the string? 01:45:41 stassats: Hadn't thought of that. Maybe a custom error? 01:46:01 -!- rustywheeler [n=kliese@campsis.eait.uq.edu.au] has left #lisp 01:46:07 or eof is signalled only on incomplete input 01:46:11 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:47:15 RustyWheeler [n=kliese@campsis.eait.uq.edu.au] has joined #lisp 01:47:17 brnhck__ [n=hrk@acurwa003240.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:47:54 anyway, counting parenthesis is trivial 01:48:24 stassats: I most likely will go that route. I can use slime as my guide that way. Maybe. If I can understand it. 01:48:50 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 01:50:48 that's such a trivial task to use slime as a guide 01:52:36 stassats: I would like to add the auto-complete abilities eventually. 01:52:54 why not use slime then? 01:52:58 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:53:16 brnhck___ [n=hrk@acurwa003240.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:53:27 The parts I need seem to be for emacs lisp. 01:53:32 ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.159.188] has joined #lisp 01:53:47 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:53:51 And I don't know enough about emacs programming yet. 01:54:27 -!- RustyWheeler [n=kliese@campsis.eait.uq.edu.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:55:06 RustyWheeler [n=kliese@campsis.eait.uq.edu.au] has joined #lisp 01:55:23 Maybe you could have a look at cusp (http://bitfauna.com/projects/cusp/) which uses the swank half of slime to provide a repl in eclipse. 01:56:39 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:56:41 RustyWheeler: Eclipse is Java right? (Making sure I can read it.) 01:56:49 actually, as i think of it, counting parenthesis is not so trivial 01:57:08 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:57:27 stassats: I heard it takes a lisp to parse a lisp. 01:57:35 no 01:57:38 Yes, eclipse is written in java. 01:58:05 well, if you have #. 01:58:10 -!- brnhck [n=hrk@acurwa003240.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:02:35 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:02:51 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:03:03 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:03:26 stassats: not so trivial? 02:03:50 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:59 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 02:05:22 ramus`_ [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-157-9.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:25 I think I have a shot at making make-string-input-stream work like this... 02:07:20 -!- brnhck__ [n=hrk@acurwa003240.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:07:53 zeitx [n=sinned@201.242.32.7] has joined #lisp 02:08:15 -!- zeitx [n=sinned@201.242.32.7] has left #lisp 02:08:31 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.159.188] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:10:32 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:11:06 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-134-195.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:53 -!- brnhck___ [n=hrk@acurwa003240.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:12:41 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:12:58 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:13:23 Ralith: you have to take into account comments, escaping, double-quotes 02:13:34 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 02:13:40 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:14:16 stassats: And if the user has customized the reader. 02:14:42 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:14:52 no, you don't have to care about it 02:15:00 *sykopomp* just got back from the lisp meeting. Great success \o/ 02:16:05 stassats: that doesn't seem like *that* much additional overhead 02:19:00 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:19:37 -!- ramus`_ is now known as ramus` 02:20:44 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 02:20:49 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 02:21:17 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:24:40 hi sykopomp 02:26:12 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:27:08 slava: heya. Thanks for coming! 02:27:34 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit ["brb"] 02:28:02 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:28:55 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-127-225.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 02:29:32 -!- incwolf [n=phil@cpe-76-172-228-179.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["."] 02:30:10 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:37:50 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-147-93.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:38:19 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:38:48 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 02:41:12 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:41:57 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:43:57 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:47:06 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-127-225.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 02:47:19 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 02:48:34 seangrove [n=user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:50 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:50:55 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:52:07 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:56:49 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 02:56:49 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 02:57:54 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:03:09 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:04:15 Are luis and luis oliveira the same person? 03:05:21 seangrov` [n=user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:35 /whois luis 03:06:38 morning :) 03:07:32 -!- seangrove [n=user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:08:33 morning? eh. I need to get to sleep. :) 03:09:10 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 03:12:34 greetings 03:15:43 fuss: greetings 03:15:59 seems like I found the paper for the first multi-processing Lisp implementation; Shapiro 1977, unless there was an earlier attempt 03:16:02 fuss: I saw earlier you were talking about scraping web pages with drakma. 03:16:09 wgl: yes 03:16:35 rather, chocking ext2 with drakma running overnight 03:17:34 fusss: are you doing it one at a time? the reason I ask is I have been doing one particular page, but then I had a need to pull a whole site as wget -r does. Isn't that a doable thing if you use the other lib--is it closure? 03:18:21 closure-html *parses* html, drakma/wget/curl/trivial-http *fetch* pages 03:18:42 Right, so take the parsed html and drill for links, repeat, no? 03:18:46 but it's hard to teach wget and curl javascript, captcha and flash tricks 03:18:52 yes 03:18:59 it's hammered into my head 03:19:10 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:19 Oh, people keep making suggestions to do this? 03:19:27 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:19:56 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.49] has joined #lisp 03:20:15 (let ((html (http-request *url* :user-agent "Googlebot (google.com/bot)")))) (multiple-value-list (scan-to-strings "" html))))) 03:20:54 I see. So you are using that. 03:21:08 suggestions to do what? scraping is hard if the site owners make it so; it might involved copying session and cookie values from a real browser and paste that into the script 03:21:34 sometimes they use redircts; POST --> 301 ---> GET 200 03:21:37 Understand. 03:22:30 and sometimes they throw an sliding window type session authentication, where each page requests resets your session/cookie values (probably some sort of get-universal-time xor salt trick) 03:22:59 Good morning! 03:23:39 Cool. The reason I was looking to do it, and then I saw your comments yesterday was that I wanted to recover a web site from wayback but wget for some reason wouldn't recurse, so I was beginning to think about the recursive thing above. 03:23:50 how about Flash authentication applets which store flash cookies AND bypass your proxy by connecting to the site directly via a second socket :-) it passes them your session tokens and now you have two IPs show up in their logs and you're sent to devnull because of that. 03:24:00 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:18 Nice. 03:24:21 I just scrapped wayback for the Searles Arabic/English parallel corpora 03:24:51 Strand, rather http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/~resnik/strand/ 03:24:52 With drakma or wget? 03:25:06 drakma 03:25:07 -!- seangrov` [n=user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:25:31 So you did the iterative thing above? 03:25:36 wget wouldn't know what to do because the pages use various encodings for arabic; you will have to parse that on a case-by-case basis 03:25:51 yeah 03:26:13 Sounds like a challenge. This is for a work project? 03:26:39 yeah, i just scrape them and persist them to mysql and cl-store 03:26:48 the former for long term storage, and the later for day to day work 03:27:24 So you were driving it with a shell script? 03:27:29 text maintenance is hell sometimes; as the text goes through various stages after processing, you will need to account for which documents in that gig have what done to them 03:27:41 no, just loop 03:28:08 Sure. I did a little bit of text stuff in a previous life for typesetting software firm. 03:29:02 So sounds like you have necessary context built in to your pull, based on particular web sites. 03:29:34 I opened the URL list file in emacs, did a few string replaces to make them valid lisp data structures (a list of two string conses) then (loop for url in (read-file "url-file") do (save-file (http-request (car url)) ))) ... 03:30:26 you can get all the URLs in a page; parse the html with closure html 03:31:00 i did a few things to convert from vanilla html to xhtml and I used cxml's rune-dom API to manipulate them like a browser would 03:31:02 Sure. Hundreds of web sites? 03:32:10 C:\hack\text>dir airlinedb | wc 03:32:12 1494 7458 66012 03:32:42 That's a fair number. Actually, since you are google, not so much. 03:32:48 redblue [i=star@ppp101.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:33:41 [bar@foo hotels]$ ls clean | wc 03:33:42 4489 4489 43788 03:34:13 Getting up there. Run overnight? 03:34:54 only because I am spacing the requests (sleep (random 10)) 03:35:30 where did you get the "google" bit? 03:35:39 (let ((html (http-request *url* :user-agent "Googlebot 03:35:39 (google.com/bot)")))) (multiple-value-list 03:35:39 (scan-to-strings "" html))))) 03:36:06 that was a bad example; i was being sarcastic, I will never ever impersonate google. please forgive me. 03:36:38 Ah, heh. So anyway that code sounds like it is drummed into your fingers. 03:36:41 I do something like "Mozilla Compatible, Turing/OS" 03:37:12 Cool. like the Turing/OS part. 03:40:46 So that strand thing looks quite interesting. Use it for translation? 03:41:05 machine learning 03:41:28 i am using the machine to teach me machine learning so i can then teach the machine some machine learning 03:42:28 right now i am just helping google translate by rewriting texts (the technical vocabulary that it doesn't handle well) and giving it some pre-processed input 03:42:28 Interesting. Did you see the Norvig paper about vast data trumps smart algorithms for natural language understanding? 03:42:40 vent912 [n=vent912@c-24-0-153-83.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:43 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-220-165.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:42:48 yes, statistical methods for NLP have won 03:43:49 the hard part is managing metadata so you don't constantly rewrite the text 03:44:13 stick the original in a database table, and for each processing step, put the result in another 03:44:31 Kind of a versioning or workflow problem? 03:44:48 so you will have a database with tables like orginal, stemming, lematization, noacronyms, etc. 03:45:04 yes 03:45:27 Kind of messy. 03:46:00 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-215-161.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:09 any given day you will start with 20k candidate texts, half will fail the first step, another percentage will fail the next .. so at the end of this sieve, about 20% will make all the steps and you have to work on the failed cases and see which ones can be fixed first. repeat. 03:46:44 Yikes. Now is this Strand stuff relating to the hotels/airlines, or is that a separate project? 03:47:12 but it turns out the texts are not all independent. if these are reports or technical papers, the finished papers will be citing some of the failed texts, so the data-readiness will dictate the order of your work. 03:47:34 Kind of a partial ordering? 03:48:14 it doesn't. i needed those hospitality texts gain insight into industry terms. once you do tf-idf you will see what words you need to hand translate and that allows you to guide the machine translation better. 03:49:21 frequently you will get advertisers who work in fields completely alien to you, specially in the middle east. we have companies doing cement, fisheries, oil exploration, teacher training, labor sourcing, etc. 03:49:21 tf-idf? 03:49:44 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tf-idf 03:49:44 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:49:54 I think we're clogging up #lisp wgl :-P 03:49:56 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 03:50:38 Sorry--interesting problem. and it does sort of relate to lisp. 03:50:51 it's a very simple algorithm (mostly counting and can be implemented with hash-tables with custom :tests) 03:51:15 Demosthenes [n=demo@67.111.42.165.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:22 if you have a huge corpora that is specialized, you will be able to find out the industry terms and language 03:51:33 Fascinating. 03:52:27 brb, cigarette 03:52:54 let me leave you with this 03:53:10 once you get the main terms, write test documents for google translate and see how it handles it 03:53:31 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@88.73.197.206] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:53:39 if it chokes, write a small script that expands the translation in place (respecting grammatical correctness) 03:54:18 what I do is expand it in place and put a marker around it [:function-self-call:] for example, because google chokes on translating "recursion" into arabic 03:54:43 then a post processing step finds the marked [:strings:] and I correct them by eyeball 03:55:08 Using the corpus or your own knowledge of arabic? 03:55:26 my own knowledge of arabic 03:55:46 i don't need a corpus for programming terms, i am a domain specialist for that. 03:55:58 Fluent speaker? 03:56:46 but if you're translating a large text, you can do frequency analysis on the text you will get its main terms, tf-idf that with generic texts and you will find the technical terms 03:56:54 yes, I am an Arab 03:56:59 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:57:32 ok, apparently i'm still not in tune with symbol passing and functions. 03:57:54 Fascinating problem and solution. Thanks for discussion. 03:58:05 this is akin to processing SICP along 5 years worth of new york times text; the words that SICP scores highest for are technical terms :-) 03:58:35 Demosthenes pasted "Symbols" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89139 03:58:40 and the union of SICP and NYT corpora is everyday language :-) 03:58:41 http://paste.lisp.org/display/89139 03:59:00 errr, intersection 03:59:00 And you are looking not for total transation, but certain bits of the target websites, that is, a select vocabulary? 03:59:02 Hello, I'm trying to write a matching function that will match lists of numbers. I want to be able to pass in patterns using variables say 'n' to denote any number. Maybe I'm being not seeing this, but how can I handle 'n' as any number? 03:59:21 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:59:49 wgl: yes, i am aiding google translate; i don't have the resources to implement my own translation engine. think of it as augmenting/wrapping google's api. 04:00:14 brb 04:00:17 fuss: right, with workflow and non-trivial manual intervention/translation 04:00:30 Demosthenes: Are you sure you want apply rather than funcall? 04:00:36 yep. workflow workflow workflow. 04:00:48 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 04:00:48 beach: i don't know the difference 04:00:52 apparently 04:01:10 Demosthenes: apply takes a list of arguments, funcall just takes the arguments to the function. 04:01:15 [approximately] 04:01:31 apply interprets, funcall passes 04:01:58 damn, that was it 04:02:03 vent912: in what way would you like to treat a symbol as a number. Obviously, you can't use any arithmetic on a symbol. 04:04:15 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:05:11 Demosthenes: You are welcome. 04:05:11 04:05:15 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:06:48 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176314454.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 04:07:09 a symbol could be treated as any number. So for example I can pass a pattern that would look like this (1 2 n). 04:07:24 vent912: That works fine. 04:07:29 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.254.207] has joined #lisp 04:08:35 vent912, so you want something like (match '(1 2 n) list-of-lists) => ((1 2 3) (1 2 4) (1 2 -5)) ? How far have you gotten in matching the numbers, without this wildcard? 04:10:48 beach: you've been very helpful once again ;] 04:11:02 its frusttrating to still miss obvious things :P 04:11:09 I know what you mean. 04:11:13 Things will improve. 04:12:19 ayrnieu, good point. I'll get my matching to work without the wildcard. Sometimes I think too far ahead. 04:14:00 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:14:49 hadronzoo [n=user@gateway.publicvpn.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:26 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:20:44 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:20:55 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Nichts mehr."] 04:26:16 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:26:20 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:26:28 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-229-89-77.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:39 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.254.207] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:27:17 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:27:30 -!- RustyWheeler [n=kliese@campsis.eait.uq.edu.au] has left #lisp 04:27:38 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229112201.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 04:28:32 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:28:38 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:28:54 nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:53 Demosthenes: you can implement FUNCALL with APPLY. You cannot implement APPLY with FUNCALL. 04:33:45 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 04:37:46 -!- hadronzoo [n=user@gateway.publicvpn.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:41:04 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kazdzihznzlmljzv] has joined #lisp 04:41:44 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:41:54 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:42:01 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:06 hadronzoo [n=user@209.30.43.127] has joined #lisp 04:42:50 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:43:01 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 04:47:38 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1B72.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:51:13 -!- sepult`` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-72-106.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:51:29 sepult`` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-72-106.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:53:32 benny [n=benny@87.122.27.114] has joined #lisp 04:54:15 ayrnieu, I was able to match numbers without wildcard, but I'm still confused how I would match the wildcard to a number. 04:54:39 vent912 - OK, what do you have so far? 04:54:42 minion: pastebin 04:54:44 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``pastebin''. 04:54:48 minion: paste 04:54:49 paste: lisppaste: lisppaste is an IRC bot that runs under the nickname "lisppaste" and can be used (only for the #lisp IRC channel!) at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp - or http://paste.lisp.org/ for other destinations 04:55:27 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:55:59 -!- sepult`` is now known as sepult 04:57:15 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 05:00:40 fiveop_ [n=fiveop@g229102031.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 05:04:12 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229112201.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:05:08 vent912 pasted "matcher" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89141 05:06:48 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-233-236-102.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 05:08:01 mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6D4C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:13 mnl_ [n=mnl@217.230.212.200] has joined #lisp 05:13:27 sorry-- distracted. 05:14:41 you have an (equal (first state) (first pattern)) clause. Why don't you add the wildchar check here? Do you know how to see if (first pattern) is 'n ? 05:17:35 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:18:13 I think I can use symbolp right? 05:18:45 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:19:48 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.187.204] has left #lisp 05:21:20 Sure, if you want (match lists '(a 2 b)) => ((1 2 3) (0 2 4)) 05:22:56 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 05:25:41 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:25:49 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:27:57 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-167.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:31:20 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633767.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 05:31:46 Thanks for the help! 05:32:20 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:33:14 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 05:35:57 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:36:08 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 05:37:00 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 05:39:51 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:41:07 -!- mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6D4C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:41:26 -!- PHADTHAI is now known as phadthai 05:42:09 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:43:40 -!- vent912 [n=vent912@c-24-0-153-83.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 05:44:45 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-134-195.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:46:14 hello 05:47:49 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:49:31 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 05:50:37 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:50:43 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 05:50:58 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:54:14 OW! my laptop's cpu has reached 94 degrees C in my LAP due to sbcl doing a sort! 05:54:51 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 05:55:19 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:55:40 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:56:21 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:56:39 elderK [n=zk@222-152-10-74.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:56:42 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:57:38 -!- elderK [n=zk@222-152-10-74.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:58:01 elderK [n=zk@222.152.10.74] has joined #lisp 06:00:55 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:01:34 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:04:00 Harag [n=phil@41.213.40.61] has joined #lisp 06:04:52 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-2-149.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:00 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:06:05 what are the my options for auto completion for lisp in emacs? I saw some screen cast last night where it looked like a whole slot was auto completed once the slot name was given 06:06:44 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-129-134.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:06:48 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:06:48 i suppose its like a combination of auto completion and snippets 06:06:49 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:07:30 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:08:12 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:12:17 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 06:12:17 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:12:49 ok, *laugh* i have to share. 06:13:00 my lap is burnt because i passed #'string-equal to sort. 06:13:02 ... 06:14:33 hehe 06:14:41 what were you sorting? 06:15:02 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:15:45 a fairly long list... but it took way too long, and i just figured it out 06:16:06 What's fairly long? 06:19:25 few hundred entries? 06:19:29 all strings 06:19:35 tcr [n=tcr@138.246.7.146] has joined #lisp 06:19:38 but string-equal is NOT a sort term ;] 06:19:47 Right! 06:19:52 that doesn't seem like it should take all that long 06:19:58 ... 06:20:04 STRING-EQUAL 06:20:05 Exactly. 06:20:23 it takes seconds with string-lessp 06:20:31 but loops forever with string-equal 06:20:34 So it sits there spinning wheels and roasting your cpu. 06:20:38 and my lap 06:20:44 oh 06:20:47 you said not a SORT term 06:20:50 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-10-242.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:20:51 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 06:20:54 thought you said short :P 06:20:59 ah ;] 06:21:22 With only a few hundred strings, it seems a valid sort would have concluded before you'd even see a temperature jump. 06:21:39 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:21:54 what qualifies a string as "less than" another, anyway? 06:22:16 lexicographical order 06:22:30 o 06:22:38 makes sense 06:22:50 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:22:52 since that'd make sort do something useful. 06:24:41 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:26:33 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:01 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 06:29:13 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 06:46:02 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:50:16 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:55:49 -!- housel [n=nnnnhous@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:57:35 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 06:57:36 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 07:00:52 envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 07:01:43 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-129-134.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 07:01:48 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-69-181-124-97.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 07:08:41 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:09:07 good morning 07:13:22 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:13:42 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-140-191-199.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 07:15:24 -!- elderK [n=zk@222.152.10.74] has quit [] 07:17:38 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:18:37 is there a chart of the number of people in #lisp over the past 5 years? 07:19:57 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-72-106.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:21:17 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-72-106.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:22:05 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.49] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:22:09 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:22:14 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:22:23 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 07:23:06 pjb: is there a reason for the uppercase but very recent code in your darcs? :-D 07:23:21 gonzojive: you can plot it from data gathered in the logs 07:23:40 splittist [n=dmurray@62.203.17.229] has joined #lisp 07:23:42 morning 07:24:15 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp101.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:24:44 morning 07:25:16 morganb [n=user@wsip-98-188-196-29.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:27:28 colin__ [n=colin@118-160-195-162.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 07:27:29 -!- colin_ [n=colin@118-169-42-30.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:29:18 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-70-58.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:29:40 i really like pjb's personal repo. the man has a greenspunned little subset of cliki in funky mixed case and eccentric style. 07:31:36 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-72-106.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:32:48 http://darcs.informatimago.com/lisp/common-lisp/summary.html 07:32:57 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-72-106.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:36:25 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:36:51 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:38:05 (defun same-day-p (date1 date2) 07:38:07 (= (floor date1 86400) (floor date2 86400))) ; clever. i wrote a beast that uses mysql TIME structs 07:39:49 i also like how cliki doesn't dogfood itself. fully NIH code there; manually generated RSS and RDF, html with literal tag strings, etc. 07:39:50 kingless [n=user@adsl-144-172-131.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 07:42:28 levy [n=levy@89.223.193.201] has joined #lisp 07:42:52 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 07:43:09 how about leap seconds? (-: 07:45:45 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:46:29 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 07:47:20 (floor (coerce 'float *)) then 07:48:19 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:48:22 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 07:48:48 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-36-117.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:50:39 Is there a way to disassemble sbcl's fasl files? 07:51:34 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:52:05 I'm not exactly interested in machine instructions, more like in a high-level view of the steps that are going to be performed by the loader 07:53:33 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:53:50 tcr: i wrote a core-dumper for cmucl and found it straightforward. i am not sure fasls and cores have similar file formats though 07:54:51 kind of a like objdump for fasls, right? 07:56:04 mnl__ [n=mnl@pD9E6CAA5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:56:40 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.193.201] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:56:49 ideally more high-level 07:59:00 levy [n=levy@89.223.193.201] has joined #lisp 07:59:07 angerman [n=angerman@138.246.7.41] has joined #lisp 07:59:40 moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 08:01:16 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@adsl-62-167-84-215.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 08:02:14 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:03:49 -!- mnl_ [n=mnl@217.230.212.200] has quit [Read error: 128 (Network is unreachable)] 08:04:23 ASau [n=user@77.246.231.100] has joined #lisp 08:05:53 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-4-58.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:09:17 tcr: the opcodes are gathered in a place in the sources (let me look it up) 08:09:24 you could conceivably hack their definitions to give you a stub loader that just tells you what it'll do 08:11:02 note though the presence of the fopcompiler 08:11:02 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-84-227-76-197.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:11:09 -!- lukego_ is now known as lukego 08:11:20 tcr: it looks like it's all in src/code/fop.lisp 08:12:01 so if you hack %define-fop to fill another table with descriptions of the fop and adjust the loader for this, it has the potential to be easy (: 08:13:13 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:14:10 -!- drag` [n=user@82.113.106.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:14:18 or, ah, take the more simple approach and just trace the functions that it defines (-: 08:14:21 drag` [n=user@82.113.106.86] has joined #lisp 08:14:52 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:14:56 good morning 08:15:29 kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 08:15:29 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:18:59 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:19:15 tcr, I didn't really understand what you proposed in your last mail to asdf-devel 08:19:48 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:20:00 tcr, AIUI it isn't scope at all which is the reason for these module forms -- scope is already per-file 08:21:33 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.193.201] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:25:14 in slime, I can define slime-lisp-implementations. Is there a command to choose one of them interactively (with tab completion etc.) ? 08:25:31 *deepfire* away 08:26:06 there's already stubbed out code for showing fops as they happen 08:26:07 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:26:15 probably conditioned on *show-fop* or similar 08:26:47 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 08:26:54 *show-fops-p* and #!+sb-show 08:27:28 having said that, when I was doing my identical-fasls-dammit work, I found it easy enough to open the fasl in emacs and read it :) 08:28:53 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.194.63] has joined #lisp 08:30:51 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:34:02 serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d066866.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:06 good morning 08:34:25 levy [n=levy@94.44.14.198] has joined #lisp 08:34:42 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:11 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-3-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:35:56 lichtblau [n=user@77-22-106-8-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:36:55 demmel [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 08:37:25 sah0s [n=anto@254.134.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 08:38:01 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:41:01 asksol [n=ask@212-181-96-82.customer.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:50:59 kami-: M-- M-x slime 08:54:34 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:54:55 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:55:42 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 08:55:55 deepfire: I don't see the point of having to do that if xcvb can "just" parse the .asd file which I thought it'd do 08:57:15 tcr: thank you! 08:58:11 redblue [i=star@ppp037.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 08:59:16 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kazdzihznzlmljzv] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:59:39 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jtcnvncvfxtexoie] has joined #lisp 09:00:03 deepfire: What Fare at the moment proposes to each project where he sends the xcvb stuff to, is that the maintainers of the projects now have to maintain file-dependencies in two places (for each file) 09:01:00 _YKY_ [i=YKY@119.237.179.95] has joined #lisp 09:01:38 <_YKY_> Is there some sample code for dealing with trees (not binary trees)? 09:01:49 minion: TREES 09:01:50 TREES: TREES is a Library which provides binary trees of several flavors, all exposed through a uniform CLOS interface. http://www.cliki.net/TREES 09:03:00 <_YKY_> That's binary tree.. 09:04:31 Eh, true 09:05:30 -!- angerman [n=angerman@138.246.7.41] has quit [] 09:06:53 tcr, whether centralised dependency maintenance is more or less burden than spread one isn't as clear-cut as it might seem, though 09:08:22 tcr, there is a second question, which I guess many people subconsciously thrust into the matter, but which, IMO, is worth to keep clearly separate -- whether it is desirable to maintain two system definitions 09:08:23 Please notice that I'm not arguing for or against that. 09:08:23 -!- kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:08:35 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 09:08:49 good morning 09:11:45 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:15:01 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:15:36 lukego: did you mean CLWEB as an alternative to pbook.el? 09:16:28 haven't looked at it, but I don't have a taste for Knuth-style literature programming. I just want printable/readable source files 09:16:43 pbook badly needs to be rewritten using a proper parser, it would be so much neater 09:17:45 (not to say that literature programming is bad, just not my cup of tea) 09:18:05 They're still trying to become literate, literature is a bit off 09:18:39 lukego: alright, i was just wondering whether this was the alternative to pbook your were talking to me about at the ECLM 2009 09:19:23 in Lisp context the other one I know of is Marco Baringer's qbook 09:19:35 i'll go and check that out then 09:20:07 tcr: would you be interested in trying to adapt slime to my new external formats? Specifically, so that neither the emacs side nor the sbcl side can cause the other to get thoroughly confused? 09:21:18 as I said on list, I don't mind having a xcvb file as well as an .asd for split-sequence. But split-sequence is one file with no dependencies; why on _earth_ should the source have to grow this extra thing which is of no use to anyone? 09:21:19 lukego: pbook is actually fine for my current need except that i need a little more control over the formatting, perhaps i should just add that myself sometime 09:21:45 Sure, I could give it a try. I was bitten by that kind of confusion lately quite a bit because I was generating strings randomly filled with characters up to char-code-limit 09:22:21 I'm not sure when exactly I'll have some time other than "this weekend" 09:22:58 well, there's no particular rush 09:23:37 There's a nice trick to make slime operateable again after the confusion: You have to switch to the " *cl-connection*" (note the leading space) buffer and clear all input. 09:23:48 aha, I did not know that 09:24:14 that's where the data from swank is contained and parsed 09:26:10 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-218-60.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:26:41 _YKY_: what about left leaning red black trees? Would you consider them binary trees? 09:27:35 http://darcs.informatimago.com/public/lisp/common-lisp/llrbtree.lisp 09:27:36 <_YKY_> I'm reading this... 09:27:38 <_YKY_> http://xahlee.org/emacs/lisp_list_problem.html 09:27:57 If I were you, I'd avoid xahlee... 09:28:48 Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has joined #lisp 09:29:25 <_YKY_> That sounds quite true though... 09:29:35 Better read Abelson & Sussman, or Norvig. 09:29:57 <_YKY_> Oh thanks for reminding me of PAIP 09:30:10 and SICP ;-) 09:30:17 <_YKY_> I have it but have forgotten it =) 09:35:37 ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 09:35:42 Krystof: You're right that this trick is way too obtuse. I just committed M-x slime-reset which should hopefully bring you back to a functional state when ever slime gets stuck. 09:37:16 seamus_android [n=alistair@212.183.134.131] has joined #lisp 09:39:19 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:40:41 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-115-105.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 09:42:28 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:42:35 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:45 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 09:45:28 ziga` [n=user@89.142.58.170] has joined #lisp 09:48:21 is there a way to set breakpoints in slime without manually inserting a (break)? 09:51:41 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 09:54:06 -!- seamus_android [n=alistair@212.183.134.131] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:54:39 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.231.100] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:56:54 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:01:27 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:01:39 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 10:01:40 -!- kingless [n=user@adsl-144-172-131.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:03:17 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 10:03:22 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:03:36 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:04:37 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:05:13 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 10:06:59 Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has joined #lisp 10:11:44 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:12:40 -!- hadronzoo [n=user@209.30.43.127] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:13:00 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DB3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:14:57 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:18:37 gonzojive, just by staring at the screen? ;-) 10:19:13 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 10:20:08 Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483DA16.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:24 tcr: slime-open-system is nice :) 10:25:07 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483DA16.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:25:25 Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483DA16.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:25:59 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:26:02 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit ["Backups are usually a good thing unless it's a sewer."] 10:26:02 tcr: it could do two more things: change to that directory and switch the REPL to that package 10:29:02 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:29:12 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 10:29:50 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 10:32:05 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 10:34:58 -!- demmel [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:36:33 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:38:14 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DB3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:40:15 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["brb"] 10:41:45 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 10:43:32 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 10:43:54 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:43:55 aja_ [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:10 -!- Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:44:29 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:44:33 hey are many #lisp people using/liking Clojure, or is it relegated to arc/newlisp/etc status? 10:44:53 lukego: i'm writing a blog entry about this issue :) 10:45:08 lukego: well, at least related 10:45:26 lukego: i have low tolerance for syntactic sugar so: no, but if i ever have to do another java project at work it'll definitely be an option 10:45:33 ok. what's your url? I'll start clicking reload immediately :) 10:46:16 lukego: it's not ready yet. 10:46:33 lukego: hmm, i may put up what i have so far for review/comments 10:46:55 sec 10:46:55 no rush :) 10:47:25 i'll ask people here for help/advice on it, anyway :) 10:48:41 lukego: my impression from his talk was very anti-arc, anti-newlisp in that he seemed to consider cl pretty good, and he was aware of history and design tradeoffs, and he made his own set of pragmatic tradeoffs. unlike arc (dislike of CL, practicalty) or newlisp (ignorance of history) 10:48:43 jdz: Let us know when you've finished. 10:49:11 -!- sah0s [n=anto@254.134.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [] 10:49:16 lukego: i don't use it, though. 10:49:17 Xach: I also thought that common lispers generally received the talk with enthusiasm (e.g. Dan Weinreb notably) and just wondering if any of that carried through to actually using it 10:49:41 lukego: h4ns has been using it for a few things 10:49:45 Xach: e.g. I was excited by the talk (it's like CL but with new energy!) but have not come close to actually writing a program with it 10:49:50 lukego: i'm using it in a project where i'm supposed to write Java 10:49:56 antifuchs seemed to enjoy it 10:50:19 lukego: i don't know about other lispers, but i actually really like CL and have a comfortable toolchest and i have never used java and don't have the infrastructure or inclination to give it a go. 10:50:31 go Xach 10:50:44 lukego: I did (: 10:51:10 If I found myself in a situation where the choice was straight Java or Clojure, it'd be a no-brainer. Not anywhere near a situation like that, though. 10:51:11 Xach: I can't remember whether we've discussed this before. For one of my courses, I teach the students a lot about colour theory, which means I have learnt stuff about colour theory 10:51:14 but my motivation for using it was that the alternative solution for the particular problem I was solving was to use java 10:51:31 Krystof: I don't think we have. 10:51:55 it beats java hands-down, and is as good to real a real CL with a really nice java foreign-function interface as it gets 10:52:00 is there anything in your image or related libraries that would benefit from stuff like "please give me a shade of green with the same brightness on a typical screen as this shade of red"? 10:52:21 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:52:31 (because I now know how to do that kind of operation) 10:52:52 Krystof: hmm, maybe. is that a layman's way of talking about a HSV/HSL/HWB color space? or is it something different? 10:53:04 no, it's different 10:53:16 then yeah, i'd be interested in learning more about it. 10:53:57 arnee [n=arnee@mail.kono.de] has joined #lisp 10:54:04 ok, here's something I make my students do: put up three squares of solid colour, one rgb(255,0,0) [i.e. full red], one rgb(0,255,0) [green], one rgb(0,0,255) [blue]. Then look at them carefully and tell me which is brightest 10:54:13 sah0s [n=anto@254.134.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 10:54:50 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:54:51 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 10:54:53 http://www.ltn.lv/~jonis/blog/1-brians-brain-on-clojure.html 10:55:18 if anybody wants to send me comments in the form of diff, there's the .org version of the file, too 10:56:17 elderK [n=zk@122-57-250-233.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:56:18 (and it's not finished yet) 10:56:34 -!- sah0s [n=anto@254.134.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 11:00:13 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:01:03 ASau [n=user@77.246.231.100] has joined #lisp 11:03:57 borism [n=boris@195.50.197.221] has joined #lisp 11:04:34 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:06:38 kami-` [n=user@p5B20CD54.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:56 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 11:11:56 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Client Quit] 11:12:38 demmel [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 11:14:49 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 11:14:53 Good afternoon! 11:17:04 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:17:11 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:35 hi spiaggia 11:17:50 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:18:49 anyone built/installed xcvb from the git checkout? 11:20:32 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:20:44 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-56.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:27:02 -!- elderK [n=zk@122-57-250-233.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [] 11:28:19 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 11:30:39 sah0s [n=anto@254.134.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 11:34:05 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-72-106.netcologne.de] has quit [No route to host] 11:35:49 nunb [n=user@217.133.104.225] has joined #lisp 11:38:17 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:38:59 hello spiaggia 11:39:11 TR2N [i=email@89-180-223-22.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 11:40:40 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:46:30 -!- nunb [n=user@217.133.104.225] has left #lisp 11:48:20 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:49:54 Soulman [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 11:50:19 -!- benny [n=benny@87.122.27.114] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:51:16 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:52:59 benny [n=benny@i577A1B72.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:53:25 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:21 to invoke a superclasses initialize-instance does on use (call-next-method)? 11:54:32 s/does on/does one 11:55:57 more commonly, use INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :AFTER to run stuff after the superclass has already done it's job 11:56:19 aerique, have you seen my second, more condensed and GL-specific Ogre class hierarchy graph? 11:56:24 lichtblau so the superclass initialize always gets called 11:57:37 deepfire: no not yet, sorry 11:58:08 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Success] 11:58:58 Fare: do you have some time to help a lost xcvb user? 11:59:02 sure 11:59:13 are you using the latest release (.408)? 11:59:14 Fare: i tried to install from the git checkout and i was lost... 11:59:27 Fare: is there something in the docs about bootstrap? 11:59:28 it in turn requires the latest asdf and asdf-dependency-grovel 11:59:37 yes, but it's succint 11:59:44 then i went on to the release tarball 11:59:50 basically, you edit configure.mk, you make xcvb-using-asdf 11:59:59 and it's meant to just work. 12:00:06 someday, I'll write a test suite for it 12:00:19 but sudo make install PREFIX=/opt/xcvb/ hangs, probably because sbcl's run-program is called with the wrong params and the debugger output is not visible in hte terminal 12:00:46 *attila_lendvai* notes the bootstrap for later playing 12:01:50 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:01:50 -!- ziga` [n=user@89.142.58.170] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:01:54 an sbcl is started, the debugger comes up (output not visible in terminal), C-c, shell prompt comes back, but a crippled sbcl debugger remains in the background sometimes printing some output 12:02:35 Fare: and a fix: in Makefile search for "--noinform --eval" and also add "--no-userinit --no-sysinit" 12:02:38 cpt_nemo [i=cpt_nemo@saga.ftbfs.de] has joined #lisp 12:03:07 i have some stuff in .sbclrc that interferes 12:03:15 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:03:17 yes, the error messages for runprogram are bad 12:03:35 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:03:42 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:04:02 ok 12:04:16 though it's probably bad taste of a userinit or sysinit to print things 12:04:20 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 12:04:47 Fare: it's not printing, it's loading some stuff which is not available there (and would potentially interfere anyway) 12:05:01 also, make sure you follow this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/435960 12:05:15 it's about how a bug that prevented child processes sharing pty 12:05:17 I've added those flags 12:05:22 thanks 12:05:48 hasn't that bug been fixed? 12:06:00 with the patch (already comitted) and :intput t :output t you can exec a child sbcl whose debugger can come up in the same terminal and receive the input 12:06:19 it was, but cl-launch exec's with :input nil 12:06:36 cl-launch??? 12:06:46 well, make install of xcvb 12:06:53 oh, ok 12:07:02 no idea who execs the child sbcl, i was grepping all around 12:07:09 tried to experiment with it 12:07:16 it must be the extract-target-properties.lisp 12:07:34 it's trying to determine what are the features in your target lisp, if there is cfasl support, etc. 12:07:45 so conditional compilation can work correctly 12:07:50 for that it spawns a process 12:08:19 if that process fails because the --userinit borked the path detection, error recovery is bad 12:09:25 please note that i've added the missing --no-userinit also to /tmp/xcvb-1.2.3/Makefile/ 12:10:16 demmel1 [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:10:17 -!- demmel1 [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:10:30 demmel1 [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:11:21 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 12:12:56 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jtcnvncvfxtexoie] has left #lisp 12:13:23 -!- sah0s [n=anto@254.134.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:13:30 sah0s [n=anto@254.134.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:13:33 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 12:14:05 yes, I've added it to doc/Makefile.release where this comes from 12:16:09 -!- demmel [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:18:42 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:19:00 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 12:19:12 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 12:23:57 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:24:57 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:25:53 -!- rusoc [n=hendrix@host-85-118-227-114.academ.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:26:10 ziga` [n=user@89.142.58.170] has joined #lisp 12:26:12 rusoc [n=hendrix@host-85-118-227-114.academ.org] has joined #lisp 12:26:34 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:26:36 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:28:10 ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.30] has joined #lisp 12:29:09 lichtblau oh doh, of course it does, its been awhile since i done OO 12:30:02 morphling [n=stefan@89.15.137.66] has joined #lisp 12:32:12 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:34:01 -!- demmel1 [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:34:03 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1B72.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:34:50 benny [n=benny@i577A1B72.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:36:49 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has left #lisp 12:38:08 mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6CAA5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:40:10 -!- rdd [n=rdd@83.250.145.223] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:40:28 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:41:09 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 12:41:09 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 12:42:24 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:42:53 Is there a way to do source level debugging in common lisp with slime and SBCL? I would like to stop execution at a given form and then step from there on. 12:44:43 cpt_nemo: i don't do that, but when i have a tricky error i usually recompile a function with high debug (C-u C-c C-c) and then "v" in the frame jumps to the exact form that triggered the error 12:45:17 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:45:32 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:45:41 Xach: But that would initially stop only if I run into an error. 12:45:45 cpt_nemo: you can insert a (break) statement in the code of the function where you want to break into the debugger 12:45:45 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:45:57 I don't know if there are usable interfaces for CL steppers around 12:46:03 cpt_nemo: quite true, yes. 12:46:13 I believe there was a slime project for this a while ago, but don't remember any details 12:46:19 antifuchs: The slime one is... sometimes usable :) 12:46:33 sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. There doesn't seem to be a definite pattern 12:46:35 ah, then use that. the "s" key binding in the debugger? 12:46:41 antifuchs: That's good to know. So a (break) form is like a breakpoint. 12:46:53 exactly 12:47:10 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:47:18 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@67.111.42.165.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit ["leaving"] 12:47:19 you can also pass it some information to display in the debugger 12:47:24 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:47:29 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 12:47:34 almost having a watched variable (: 12:48:06 necroforest [n=jarred@pool-96-255-62-122.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:07 -!- mnl__ [n=mnl@pD9E6CAA5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:50:03 has anybody have a .emacs file that has slime yasnippet and paredit configured that I could have a look at please? 12:51:28 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-186-27.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:51:49 (defvar *big-data-structure* (or (cl-store:restore "big-ds-file") (make-and-initialize-big-ds))) <-- I am still unclear on evaluation times with eval-when and #.compile-time-evaluation, does anyone think what i wrote here is both correct and idiomatic? if not, what am I doing wrong? 12:51:53 Harag: look at emacs/dwim-init.el and user/ati/* here: http://dwim.hu/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=HEAD%20hu.dwim.environment;a=tree 12:52:27 attila_lendvai: thanx 12:52:34 Xach: I just tried (break) in a function recompiled with high debug. 'v' just positions point at the beginning of the defun enclosing the (break). 12:52:37 I am pretty much avoiding the creation a persistent big object if it already exists in the file system 12:53:40 cpt_nemo: Right. I'm telling you what I do when I have a problem I want to solve. I am not describing to you how to recreate what you requested, sorry. 12:54:54 -!- drag` [n=user@82.113.106.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:55:05 drag` [n=user@82.113.106.86] has joined #lisp 12:55:18 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:55:22 Xach: I'm just trying to understand. 12:55:23 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 12:56:55 cpt_nemo: When I hit "v", it jumps straight to the break. 12:57:03 ferada [n=user@g224146130.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:57:06 And I can see all the locals, etc. 12:57:11 *Xach* tries stepping for the first time 12:58:09 JohnnyL [i=excellen@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 12:59:10 Xach: brave man 12:59:18 -!- mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6CAA5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:01:24 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 13:02:48 *Xach* fails after 1 step 13:04:28 Xach: stepping ... in slime? 13:04:36 aye 13:04:40 hunh 13:06:31 cmatei__ [n=cmatei@82.137.49.217] has joined #lisp 13:07:16 udzinari [n=user@195.212.29.179] has joined #lisp 13:08:21 So we're back to hello-world-debugging or hard thinking... 13:08:24 -!- cmatei_ [n=cmatei@89.122.249.234] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:08:28 We? 13:08:28 danlei [n=user@pD9E2DCE2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:37 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:57 I'm not sure I've ever successfully stepped in a lisp debugger 13:10:07 *attila_lendvai* succesfully installed the latest xcvb release 13:10:13 which is ironic, considering that history says lisp debuggers were the first to have single stepping 13:10:23 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:49 to get more debugging information you need to compile with higher debugging settings 13:10:55 fusss: looks right. For a coffee-time tutorial, see my blog post about eval-when 13:10:56 C-u C-c C-c does this 13:10:59 dlowe: Also the first to have time-traveling debuggers, no? Those have also disappeared. 13:11:06 dlowe: maybe that was in the days where everything was PROG and GO... 13:11:17 Fare: cheers! 13:11:23 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:19 dlowe, I've stepped in the emacs debugger, long ago. 13:12:28 dlowe, the PLT debugger can be cool, too 13:12:45 dlowe: but yeah, common lisp and stepping, I haven't really seen 13:12:48 yeah, edebug is quite powerful and friendly 13:13:45 demmel [n=Adium@138.246.18.226] has joined #lisp 13:14:18 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:16:49 -!- demmel [n=Adium@138.246.18.226] has quit [Client Quit] 13:17:13 -!- spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:18:40 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633767.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:19:08 -!- borism [n=boris@195.50.197.221] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:19:43 I'd like to write edebug for Common Lisp, it's one of my few remaining stuff I think needs to be done on Slime 13:19:56 it's on my "waiting for funding" list 13:20:48 ACL 8.2 will come with a very good stepper 13:20:54 if not perfect 13:21:16 (You can even step through macro expansion) 13:21:29 ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 13:21:33 i've never used edebug 13:21:59 Well what I'd like is that the source is annotated with the values of frame locals 13:22:04 hello, stassats, thanks for slime-open-system :) 13:22:08 like you can hover over a LET binding and see its value 13:22:14 tcr: mbaringer left us at ITA with plenty of small discrepancies wrt upstream slime. 13:22:21 serichsen: Yeah you have to thank stassats for that. I disagree on the cwd suggestion 13:22:37 serichsen: I agree on the package suggestion 13:22:38 I was wondering if you had already discussed with him and rejected the patches, or if I should submit and see your comments 13:22:42 serichsen: i'm glad you like it 13:22:59 Fare: What has happened to marco? I've heard nothing of him for over half a year 13:23:02 tcr: I see that this can be a double-edged sword 13:23:36 someone posted an example loop somewhere recently that could emit a comma separated list. something like (iter () (unless (first-time-p) (print ","))... anyone remembers what, where? 13:23:45 Fare: From what I know, upstream partially very different to your local version. 13:24:14 attila_lendvai: Use PPRINT-LOGICAL-BLOCK 13:24:15 tcr: changing package would also perhaps be a bit involved if a system has several packages 13:24:17 serichsen: you can change directory and package with C-c ~ 13:24:45 stassats: oh 13:24:49 what's the point of changing directory? C-x f will automatically insert a template anyway 13:24:59 C-x C-f 13:25:42 marco is an ex-lisp-hacking photographer, right? 13:27:01 tcr: I am lazy -- my web application currently runs from the development directory, without real paths. So, when Hunchentoot is told to serve the CSS "foo.css", it just looks in the default directory. 13:27:53 well, you could make it look at directory of *load-pathname* 13:27:56 I was parsing through PAIP last night, at least through the GPS problem solver, but am really having a hard time understanding how something is being evaluated. In this example, http://norvig.com/paip/gps1.lisp under defun appropriate-p near the top, we have op-add-list. Other op-* stuff is done later, as in the other gps.lisp file. I parsed through the code and don't see any defun for op-add-list...am I missing something on how this 13:27:56 is evaluated? 13:27:59 clhs *load-pathname* 13:28:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_ld_pns.htm 13:28:41 TDT: it's made by defstruct 13:29:36 you could do M-. it should bring you to the defstruct 13:30:24 stassats: I think changing package is not a bad idea; I also wished for it but I couldn't agree on a good way of doing it. 13:30:45 coliv [n=Coliveir@173.12.30.65] has joined #lisp 13:30:51 stassats: thanks, that's interesting 13:31:01 ah, didn't know that. I'll read up on defstruct, that's not something I used before 13:31:05 Thanks stassats 13:31:14 in presence of slime-sync-package-and-default-directory i don't think it's needed 13:31:54 Well I don't use that :) and I don't want to change cwd 13:32:10 it changes dpd 13:32:43 oh 13:33:10 is there a shortcut for s-s-p-a-d-d? 13:33:39 C-c ~ 13:33:44 You know that you can find out yourself with `C-h w'? 13:33:45 ah, now I got it 13:33:49 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:35:09 i use it regularly 13:35:42 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:35:58 "slime-sync-package-and-default-directory is on " :( 13:36:42 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:54 serichsen: you need to run it on .lisp file 13:38:14 stassats: yeah, I got it :) 13:39:25 I'm just sad about my where-is 13:39:43 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 13:40:47 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 13:40:55 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:21 anyway, thanks, you made my workflow happier :) 13:41:26 -!- ziga` [n=user@89.142.58.170] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:43:03 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:46:30 ah wow defstruct is interesting 13:46:46 serichsen: You've read through my last year's slime presentation already? 13:47:16 tcr: link? 13:47:39 minion: slime-talk? 13:47:40 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``slime-talk''. 13:48:04 udzinari: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/slime-talk-2008.pdf 13:48:14 tcr: cheers 13:48:19 So the defstruct in the case of gps1.lisp, saying (defstruct op (action nil) (preconds nil) (add-list nil) and (del-list nil)) give the functions op-action, op-preconds, op-add-list, and op-del-list -- on the type op object passed to those functions...am I getting the general idea down on that? 13:49:00 these are slot accessors 13:49:04 yes 13:49:29 demmel [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 13:49:31 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 13:49:47 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:49:49 tcr: I had, but perhaps I should repeat it -- not everything will stick at first reading 13:50:07 stassats: Yeah, I can understand that in relation to what's from the structure op, but the op-add-list then becomes a method of sorts, doesn't it? 13:50:43 rather function 13:50:50 serichsen: it does not cover C-c ~ :) 13:50:55 sorry, function...you're right, it's not bound to a class. 13:51:31 TDT: generic function are not necessarily "specialized" to classes either 13:51:46 TDT: in fact, you can specialize methods on structures as as fine as on classes 13:52:10 tcr: ah, I always thought of methods as bound to a class itself. 13:52:25 Not in Common Lisp 13:52:36 but structures can be also specialized 13:52:49 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 13:53:27 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:54:46 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 13:54:57 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 13:59:13 Language lawyers present? 13:59:26 ejs [n=eugen@95.135.122.37] has joined #lisp 13:59:29 clhs 3.2.2.3 13:59:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbc.htm 13:59:39 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:59:45 2nd item: `` Special proclamations for dynamic variables must be made in the compilation environment. Any binding for which there is no special declaration or proclamation in the compilation environment is treated by the compiler as a lexical binding. '' 14:00:47 Does this mean that (progn (defun foo (x) (+ x y)) (let ((y 2)) (declare (special y)) (foo 1))) should signal an unbound-variable error? 14:01:11 i.e. sbcl compiled the reference to Y as a reference to a special variable 14:01:39 Oh I'm sorry the section is about conforming /programs/ 14:02:34 Hm but the second sentence of that item actually specifies behaviour for the compiler :) 14:03:13 quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has joined #lisp 14:03:19 that's true for non-free variables 14:03:59 I must be really blind, the item is about bindings and not references 14:05:11 rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:06:00 -!- arnee [n=arnee@mail.kono.de] has quit [] 14:07:28 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 14:09:54 metasyntax [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:03 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:12:11 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:20 demmel1 [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:12:28 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:12:34 -!- ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:12:49 -!- ejs [n=eugen@95.135.122.37] has left #lisp 14:13:15 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:13:19 Is there a common lisp equivalent to something like Emacs' edebug being developed? 14:13:53 quidnunc: what's edebug like? 14:14:25 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-044-051.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:43 quidnunc: Some commercial implementations provide something like that, I'd guess. 14:14:52 sykopomp: It's a source debugger which let's you set breakpoint, step into and over forms, evaluate expressions within the context of the current environment, ... etc 14:15:10 You can do all that with Slime already. 14:15:17 yeah. 14:15:18 But it could be more convenient. 14:15:40 you can trace functions, too, etc. 14:16:05 zk_ [n=zk@122-57-250-233.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 14:16:36 -!- sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:16:37 It is surprisingly hard to get the sbcl stepper to behave 14:16:43 -!- demmel1 [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:16:44 demmel2 [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:16:44 at least, I can't make it work reliably 14:16:55 (not even at the terminal, let alone with slime) 14:16:58 tcr: On many lisp implementations? 14:17:02 someone pls fix thx 14:17:05 -!- demmel [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:17:08 (clisp in particular) 14:17:12 Did you compile with (debug 3) 14:17:25 quidnunc: Slime is not very usable with clisp 14:17:25 Xof: what kind of issues does the sbcl stepper have? 14:17:37 tcr: Yeah, I've been noticing :( 14:17:49 tcr: with (debug 3) it's partly usable 14:18:07 quidnunc: People who are knowledgeable about Clisp do not use Slime 14:18:19 stepping into code that wasn't compiled with (debug 3) [ even if it was compiled with (insert-step-conditions 3) ] seems to confuse something 14:18:31 almost certainly sbcl-internal logic about whether something should be stepped or not 14:18:50 tcr: What does that mean? 14:18:50 and then you can get into confused situations where half of the thing thinks you're stepping and the other half doesn't, and hilarity ensues 14:19:37 quidnunc: clisp kinda sucks with slime. It's unfortunate, but I rarely if ever have any reason to use clisp anyway. 14:19:39 quidnunc: That the situation is currently not likely to improve. 14:19:43 quidnunc: in practice, it means the people who are expert enough to fix slime/clisp relationship issues do not actually use slime or care about fixing it. 14:20:23 Indeed, I use clisp, and have rarely a reason to use slime, with it. 14:20:27 quidnunc: If you want to help, I'd be glad to advise you on what's needed from the Slime side. 14:20:31 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:20:38 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 14:20:49 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:20:52 However, slime have made a lot of progress during the last years, so I should try to use it again... 14:21:14 pjb: Clisp really should provide a programmatic API to its backtraces 14:21:52 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 14:21:59 It does. Perhaps it's not good enough (and not documented enough). 14:22:24 Not much is needed; does it have a structured representation of frames? 14:22:34 (one that is introspectable from Lisp of course) 14:23:53 pjb: I suggested it quite a while back, if you actually do want to help out, I'll happily spend a weekend with you to improve the situation. It's just that I need someone who is acquainted enough to clisp internals and can read its source code. 14:23:58 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:49 sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 14:25:37 For example, we have: (SYSTEM::THE-FRAME) -> #
; (SYSTEM::FRAME-UP nil (SYSTEM::THE-FRAME) 1) -> #
14:25:40 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1B72.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:26:36 (SYSTEM::DESCRIBE-FRAME *standard-output* (SYSTEM::FRAME-UP nil (SYSTEM::THE-FRAME) 1)) prints: - # 14:26:56 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:27:04 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@adsl-62-167-84-215.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 14:27:10 that's not enough, I want to get at the function's name a frame represent, and its arguments 14:27:16 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 14:27:19 name and values of local variables 14:27:35 possibly available catch tags 14:27:35 Blaay [i=Blay@89.143.185.121] has joined #lisp 14:27:36 tcr: indeed, to get that we would have to parse the output of describe-frame. We'd need a more symbolic API. 14:27:38 -!- zk_ [n=zk@122-57-250-233.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:27:44 possibly information about whether the frame is restartable 14:27:56 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-62-167-84-215.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:27:56 -!- lukego_ is now known as lukego 14:28:15 Parsing is what the backend does; unfortunately the output was changed "recently" 14:29:42 pjb: Perhaps you succeed at making the point to the clisp maintainers (I haven't tried) 14:30:28 Well, within a couple of months, I could have a look at it and try to provide them with a patch. 14:30:41 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.30] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:31:01 Sure 14:31:29 benny [n=benny@87.122.24.38] has joined #lisp 14:34:37 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:34:50 -!- drag` [n=user@82.113.106.86] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:35:05 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [] 14:37:31 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp037.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:39:58 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:43:33 ziga` [n=user@89.142.58.170] has joined #lisp 14:44:20 zeroish [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 14:44:22 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:34 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@115.184.103.71] has joined #lisp 14:46:06 -!- spicey [n=e@87.99.83.235] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:47:45 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:49:53 -!- ziga` [n=user@89.142.58.170] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:54:46 drag` [n=user@82.113.106.86] has joined #lisp 14:56:53 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:57:07 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 14:57:10 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Absquatulandus sum"] 14:58:42 kpreid [n=kpreid@209.217.212.34] has joined #lisp 14:59:33 drgnvale [n=acristin@209.16.73.144] has joined #lisp 14:59:43 how can one unintern a method with a particular qualifier 15:00:00 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:00:07 clhs remove-method 15:00:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_met.htm 15:00:22 ah pjb cheers 15:00:29 Guthur: easiest way is to inspect the generic function in slime, and click "remove method" or similar 15:00:41 that requires the fancy inspector contrib 15:01:22 xach i believe i have it, will give it a go 15:01:37 I've got a patch to make that inspector page suck less 15:01:49 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 15:01:51 so you can [x] lots of methods and remove all the selected methods at once 15:02:28 tcr: But can't you currently just click [remove] on each of them? 15:02:38 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:02:43 sure but it looks clumsy 15:02:51 as in too crowded 15:03:08 tcr: Ah, ok. But your method adds a click ;) 15:03:10 *Xach* has not actually ever had to remove more than one method like that 15:03:57 well I did, but the point is really that the buttons on each line gets in the way 15:04:00 i'd like more ibuffer-like interface 15:06:26 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:07:47 its not too bad, the slime-inspect, cheers xach 15:08:48 -!- Harag [n=phil@41.213.40.61] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:08:54 clhs backquote 15:08:54 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for backquote. 15:09:00 clhs 2.4.6 15:09:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 15:11:14 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:11:16 clhs ` 15:11:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 15:12:02 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:12:21 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:16:51 bye 15:17:03 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d066866.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["on the road again"] 15:17:21 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:19:59 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-044-051.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:21:16 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:21:18 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-101-117.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 15:23:19 -!- _YKY_ [i=YKY@119.237.179.95] has left #lisp 15:24:03 ziga` [n=ziga`@89.142.58.170] has joined #lisp 15:24:30 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 15:25:25 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:25:32 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:24 [Head|Rest] [n=nyao@217.149.190.2] has joined #lisp 15:27:04 -!- Adlai is now known as [car|cdr] 15:27:28 -!- sykopomp is now known as [x|xs] 15:29:27 vandemar [i=nonservi@2001:470:1f10:56b:0:0:0:4] has joined #lisp 15:30:08 -!- [x|xs] is now known as sykopomp 15:30:40 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:32:26 Who knows about C-M-. and uses it regularly? 15:32:32 -!- [car|cdr] is now known as Adlai 15:32:56 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:34:01 C-M-. in slime-enabled buffers that is 15:35:25 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:35:46 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 15:36:45 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:36:56 h3r3tic [n=heretic@86.3.27.232] has joined #lisp 15:37:24 |coyoes| [n=alex@144.162.132.203] has joined #lisp 15:39:36 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-229-89-77.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:41:59 If you look at the restart list shown in a sldb buffer; do you expect that the most recently established restart shows up first? 15:42:43 tcr: I like that the usual restarts are always at the same shortcut. 15:42:57 Well that's exactly not the case 15:43:09 -!- ferada [n=user@g224146130.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:43:19 (or are you talking of `q', `a', `c'?) 15:43:39 There's a point of convenience to be made when the restart list would be displayed reverse (i.e. oldest restart first) 15:43:40 no, the numbered restarts... Or maybe I just recognize the shape of the error (: 15:43:52 it's more likely that the numeric shortcuts would remain static as well 15:44:22 Uhm, no the numeric shortcuts are pretty much arbitrary now because the oldest restarts (the ones which tend to be the same) get associated with higher numbers 15:44:25 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:45:02 couldn't you assign the shortcuts oldest first but display earliest first? When reading the buffer, having redundant (since it's always the same) data first isn't useful. 15:45:12 ferada [n=user@e179234004.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:45:52 Hm that's an alternative, yeah, indeed. Though it's probably somewhat weird to see the list of numbers be listed from high to low :) 15:46:00 milanj [n=milan@93.87.168.225] has joined #lisp 15:46:28 no, it's just a stack! 15:46:45 OTOH the numbers would reflect the points of establishment 15:49:04 pkhuong: I think I'll go with that suggestion, thank you 15:49:24 I'll see the effect in 2-3 months then ;) 15:49:44 I was just thinking that I should do some lisp programming and see what all the fuss is about 15:50:22 fuss? 15:50:25 they say there's this really nice interface 15:50:35 lets you incrementally redefine your program, and stuff 15:50:56 debug things interactively 15:51:11 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-79.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:51:37 (approximately all my recent lisp programming has been redefining the internals of how character streams work. Guess how well debugging that goes at the repl) 15:53:00 kind of like trying to debug an embedded network stack using remote gdb, probably 15:53:07 fun! 15:53:51 that sounds about right 15:54:01 at least I have the option of a full rebuild :) 15:54:01 You could also begin working on your marked-mails stack. Always fun to reply to a email from 5 years ago. 15:55:20 Mm, or I could do some of the stuff I'm actually paid for :-) 15:55:50 *Krystof* sits down and thinks very hard 15:56:13 Do you have to be sitting? 15:57:02 for maximum effect 15:57:33 Did you stand priorly? 15:57:51 -!- levy [n=levy@94.44.14.198] has quit ["..."] 15:58:43 no :) 15:59:31 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:55 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 16:05:13 -!- demmel2 [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:05:27 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 16:07:29 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:08:04 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:08:41 housel [n=user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 16:10:28 Coders at Procrastination, soon in the bookstore near you! 16:11:52 :p 16:12:18 http://blog.kir.com/archives/sleeping_in_chair1.jpg 16:16:11 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209.217.212.34] has quit [] 16:16:13 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 16:16:17 Greetings. 16:17:05 Hi tmh. I fully expect to hear how you now read 15Mo of floats in 2 seconds (; 16:17:49 Heh. Yeah, I was pretty stoked about that, I appreciate you guys humoring me. :-) 16:18:01 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:18:49 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 16:18:56 No, today I'm stoked about having 2 remote lisp sessions open and connecting to them from emacs. I have 2 REPLs, so one is for calculations and one is for development. 16:19:10 Uber-productive 16:19:37 antgreen [n=user@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM0018c0b3c272.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:21:11 is dumping core with floats loaded and then loading them faster? 16:21:20 loading it 16:22:16 Haven't tried that, yet. I'm still in development mode with that process. Now that the read time is down to 20min, I have less motivation. I need to focus getting the processing time down now. It takes 6 hours to process one set of data. 16:23:02 Actually, closer to 7 16:23:51 they were right, lisp is slow 16:24:33 tmh: That's simple, just half the data, and if you were a good boy, the time should go down to a quarter. 16:26:22 6-7 hours isn't that bad, the initial implementation of this process took approximately 36 hours to process one set of data. The next big improvement will be to perform the processing in parallel. 16:28:33 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 16:32:31 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.231.100] has quit ["off"] 16:32:48 -!- kami-` [n=user@p5B20CD54.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:34:53 ejs [n=eugen@95.135.122.37] has joined #lisp 16:35:51 nowhereman [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:50 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-69-181-124-97.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:26 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:40:19 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:45:30 -!- ejs [n=eugen@95.135.122.37] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:49:03 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-173-48-104-141.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 16:49:47 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:50:14 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-2-149.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [] 16:51:13 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-173-48-104-141.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:34 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:52:08 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 16:52:40 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:53:42 spilman [n=spilman@92.135.83.218] has joined #lisp 16:54:08 pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.58.146] has joined #lisp 16:57:26 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:57:52 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:12 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.196.119] has joined #lisp 17:02:43 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:02:45 -!- lichtblau [n=user@77-22-106-8-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:03:00 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 17:06:20 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:07:37 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.168.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:09:04 KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84.217.2.149] has joined #lisp 17:10:05 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.58.146] has quit ["Im out"] 17:10:29 pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.58.146] has joined #lisp 17:10:43 -!- ferada [n=user@e179234004.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:11:31 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:12:15 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 17:13:37 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@gprs25.swisscom-mobile.ch] has joined #lisp 17:17:50 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:19:25 lukego__ [n=lukegorr@adsl-84-226-41-25.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 17:20:42 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:21:15 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:35 -!- lukego_ [n=lukegorr@gprs25.swisscom-mobile.ch] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:27:27 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-69-181-124-97.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:28:14 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-62-167-84-215.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:28:15 -!- lukego__ is now known as lukego 17:28:40 -!- antgreen [n=user@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM0018c0b3c272.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:28:50 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:29:46 mnl [n=mnl@217.230.202.165] has joined #lisp 17:30:29 -!- mnl [n=mnl@217.230.202.165] has quit [Client Quit] 17:30:41 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:30:48 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:30:58 swathanthran [n=user@117.204.80.48] has joined #lisp 17:38:40 -!- milanj- [n=milan@79.101.196.119] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:39:47 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 17:43:10 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:44:55 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:45:02 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:48:09 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@209.131.62.113] has joined #lisp 17:49:04 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-157-9.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:50:04 libcl checkout howto? 17:51:46 -!- moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:53:01 I admit I haven't tried libcl.com. 17:53:14 I'd like to see more synergy between libcl, clbuild, desire, etc. 17:53:25 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 17:54:15 lhz: http://libcl.com/git.html 17:54:16 piso, memo from tcr: Talk to me when you're here. 17:54:25 tcr: herep? 17:54:47 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:58 piso: it doesn't help me. I cant find configure-libcl.lisp in those git repos. 17:56:17 Fare: what's "desire" ? 17:57:07 fe[nl]ix: http://www.mail-archive.com/xcvb-devel@common-lisp.net/msg00028.html 17:58:12 I get a 502 from paste.lisp.org, do you too? 17:58:20 piso: Can you see my privmsg? 17:58:27 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:34 fe[nl]ix, _deepfire's thingie 17:58:41 tcr: yes 18:00:56 tcr: yes, paste.lisp.org appears to be broken at the moment 18:03:26 plutonas [n=plutonas@92.195.3.10] has joined #lisp 18:03:31 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@193.247.250.25] has joined #lisp 18:04:40 lispm [n=joswig@e177126180.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:05:05 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633767.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 18:07:37 lukego__ [n=lukegorr@adsl-84-227-56-111.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 18:08:14 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 18:08:15 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 18:08:31 fatalnix [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:26 Hi! I was wondering if there was a way to compile something I wrote in clisp into object code so that I may link it with other objects I've built with C or asm? 18:10:16 minion: ecl for fatalnix 18:10:17 fatalnix: direct your attention towards ecl: Embeddable Common Lisp, a member of the KCL Family, is a Common Lisp implementation initially developed by Giuseppe Attardi and currently maintained by Juan Jose Garcia-Ripoll. http://www.cliki.net/ecl 18:10:33 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-84-226-41-25.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:10:33 -!- lukego__ is now known as lukego 18:10:45 ooh 18:10:52 fatalnix: ECL compiles to C, so you'll probably have an easier time doing that if you use it. 18:11:20 ah, that's cool, I was curious if I'd be able to build some parts of my operating system in lisp 18:11:46 movitz is an operating system written entirely in Common Lisp. 18:11:46 well, you can produce executable binaries with most implementations 18:12:04 lukego__ [n=lukegorr@gprs25.swisscom-mobile.ch] has joined #lisp 18:12:10 Xach: Movitz itself isn't exactly an operating system 18:12:13 -!- lukego_ [n=lukegorr@193.247.250.25] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:12:27 it's a CL implementation which you can use to build operating systems 18:13:12 ah. Yeah I have a couple of projects with those small nano itx boards with via processors I wanted to play with 18:13:14 Right. I mean it as shorthand for the larger project. 18:13:47 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@115.184.103.71] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:13:52 fatalnix, also check the other way: you can link in C object code into Lisp 18:13:53 lispm, memo from fusss: I think /lisp/ will like this; click for larger size :-) http://www.nga.gov/fcgi-bin/tinfo_f?object=119255 18:14:04 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:35 fatalnix: do you know about different lisp dialects? You might have more luck finding embedded systems for Scheme, or other embedded lisp dialects (hedgehog or picolisp) 18:14:59 Adlai: Pushing didn't work, did it? 18:15:18 well actually, I have only started lisp aboutr a week ago, I am reading practical common lisp and I think I might be able to use it for some things in the future :) 18:15:23 about* 18:15:48 tcr: no... I haven't heard back from drewc yet, either. I guess he's busy. 18:16:10 nevermind, so am I :) 18:16:10 fatalnix: great, you've found the right book. 18:16:22 :) 18:16:54 fatalnix: I guess your best options if you're looking for doing embedded work with CL are to look into Movitz or ECL. 18:17:01 minion: movitz? 18:17:03 movitz: Movitz is a Common Lisp implementation that targets the x86 PC architecture "on-the-metal". http://www.cliki.net/movitz 18:17:07 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-84-227-56-111.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:17:08 -!- lukego__ is now known as lukego 18:17:49 tcr: I guess I can send you patches by email, for now. 18:18:37 interesting 18:19:01 via nano doesn't sound like it won't run linux and sbcl 18:19:47 Once I get comfortable enough I'll look more into this, I've bookmarked them, I have to head downstairs though and get some food though. Thanks for the pointers! 18:19:58 Adlai: Just keep them locally. I've got no time for sequence-iterators right now anyway 18:19:58 h3 [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 18:20:02 Yes via is x86 18:20:06 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@86.3.27.232] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:20:22 -!- |coyoes| [n=alex@144.162.132.203] has quit ["May the Coyoes cook you some hot chili some day!"] 18:20:25 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-213-82.taconic.net] has quit [] 18:20:31 I'm using clozure CL (threads supported) - how do I evaluate stuff from SLIME while the primary thread is working - if I run (loop) in my SLIME repl, how can I interact with CCL? 18:20:41 -!- fatalnix [n=fatalnix@pool-70-16-70-118.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:20:41 fatalnix: i mean enough power 18:21:02 ziga`: run loop in another thread 18:21:06 billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-213-82.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:18 can't I open another REPL? 18:21:24 you can 18:21:35 CLISP is known to run on tiny computers 18:21:36 stassats: but it's more complicated? 18:21:36 Adlai: did i miss an email from you or something? 18:21:49 ziga`: no 18:22:05 just create a new swank server and connect to it 18:22:12 minion: memo for fatalnix: There are of course existing implementations that run on a variety of operating systems -- check out SBCL and CCL for two good open-source options. 18:22:12 Remembered. I'll tell fatalnix when he/she/it next speaks. 18:22:13 there's mrepl contrib, but i don't know whether it works 18:22:37 is anybody here using mrepl? 18:22:46 drewc: I think I left you a memo with minion, although I didn't email. I had some trouble pushing patches to tcr's sequence-iterators darcs repo. 18:22:59 stassats: It's working but kind of a scetch. It's very cool 18:23:09 sketch 18:23:13 hrm ... i don't remember getting it. Can you email me the details? drewc@tech.coop 18:23:28 stassats: so in my program, I should run a swank server on another thread before entering the main loop and then use slime-connect in emacs? 18:23:28 yep, let me recreate the problem and send you the error message. 18:23:41 drewc: I think it's a permission problem. Do you know if there's any magic involved to get multiple users be able to push to the same repo? 18:23:49 ziga`: you can start a new server from inferior lisp 18:24:03 tcr: is it better than just two servers? 18:24:05 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:10 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:24:28 tcr: is the darcs repo writeable to the sequence-iterators group? 18:24:32 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:52 drewc: for some reason, suid-gid is set, so I thought yes 18:24:54 ziga`: In the CCL IDE you can just open a new listener. But in SLIME I don't know anything easier than what stassats is suggesting. 18:25:13 stassats: I wouldn't recommend it at the moment 18:25:20 sellout: ok I'll play with inferior lisp 18:25:24 I do have plans that involve mrepl 18:25:48 It's also on my "waiting for funding" list: To create eval-in-frame REPLs 18:26:20 *stassats* goes to look at mrepl 18:26:26 *Xach* wishes he could fund it 18:26:40 I'm a student aka a cheap bitch! 18:27:29 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 18:27:39 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 18:27:45 tcr: I see the grad student indoctrination's worked fine ;) 18:28:05 your greed is why lisp fails! perl students write and give away all kinds of crap! 18:28:42 tcr: what are you studying? 18:28:42 |coyoes| [n=alex@144.162.132.203] has joined #lisp 18:29:00 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has joined #lisp 18:29:00 -!- h3 [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:29:05 I do too but I spend my free time on stuff that has not as good a chance to receive funding 18:29:39 Adlai: I just started my first master semester in CS, although I'd like to study more stuff but I cannot pay for additional fees :( 18:29:51 tcr: that's interesting. try forcing g+w on it. 18:30:02 otherwise, get me a hammer and a blowtorch. 18:30:14 drewc: Just got the error message, emailing you now. 18:30:19 I didn't set suid-gid, it must be some default? 18:32:02 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:33:02 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 18:33:03 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:33:06 This seems to work, a simple solution http://bc.tech.coop/blog/070425.html 18:33:24 tcr: that is quite odd... how did you create the directory? 18:33:24 Now I can run (loop) in one repl while the other one still works 18:33:28 -!- Blaay [i=Blay@89.143.185.121] has quit ["bbl"] 18:33:28 h3 [n=heretic@86.3.27.232] has joined #lisp 18:33:36 Joreji [n=thomas@42-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:34:34 drewc: I untared it 18:34:47 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:35:11 what were the permissions on the original box? 18:35:30 ziga`: Just remember that you have 2 different lisp images now and that you need to manually switch the default when you want to change the image that the lisp buffers are using. 18:35:50 drewc: drwxr-sr-x 5 trittweiler sequence-iterators 4096 2009-10-13 12:53 /project/sequence-iterators/ 18:36:09 tmh: I don't understand 18:36:15 drewc: my project proposal was granted by hans 18:36:16 drewc: I've sent the error now, too. 18:36:21 -!- JohnnyL [i=excellen@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 18:36:45 drewc: seems like projects' directory are created with suid-gid 18:36:45 tmh: I think there is only one image 18:37:21 tmh: given that variables have the same values in both repls 18:37:21 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:37:32 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:37:45 ziga`: Hmm, yeah, had to look at that again. 18:37:59 Same PID 18:38:06 ziga`: NM 18:38:17 two connections, but you still have to switch the default connection 18:39:14 seangrove [n=user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:15 stassats: the default connection slime uses? I was wondering about that - to which server go the slime evaluations.. 18:40:07 the default connection slime uses when not in the repl buffer 18:40:36 M-x slime-selector C 18:40:49 s/C/c/ 18:41:12 With 2 servers on a single port, swank muxes the port? 18:41:27 Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has joined #lisp 18:41:30 tmh: No it's two connections so two ports 18:41:36 stassats: I see. nice 18:41:51 slime-selector is really useful, you can bind to some nice key 18:42:00 tmh: but muxing is possible too 18:42:11 ziga`: there's also M-x slime-list-connections 18:42:13 tcr: In the clementson example, they are using the same port. 18:42:17 and M-x slime-cycle-connections 18:42:59 Good evening! 18:43:13 Greetings beach. 18:43:23 hey beach 18:43:41 test [i=ad0c1e41@gateway/web/freenode/x-pogmvplhjfxrmqmk] has joined #lisp 18:44:09 -!- test is now known as Guest44224 18:44:12 Thanks.. I read on the internet that lisp community is unfriendly.. I guess that's a bit outdated. :P 18:44:14 tmh: I do not understand how that works 18:44:26 ziga`: No it's right on, we are unfriendly to stupid people 18:44:26 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:44:27 ziga`: they mean me 18:44:30 ziga`: it's friendly if you are friendly 18:45:06 heh! 18:45:18 hehe 18:45:21 Lisp community motto : "We're not happy until you're not happy." 18:45:25 ziga`: If you're new to slime, make sure to read through the manual at least once just to get an overview. 18:45:38 ziga`: Then proceed on to skimming through http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/slime-talk-2008.pdf 18:45:41 minion: slime.mov? 18:45:41 slime.mov: "using SLIME" video by Marco Baringer, http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 18:46:09 ziga`: and make sure to actually try out the commands, and note them down to some paper 18:46:23 I've seen the SLIME movie - otherwise I wouldn't install emacs on my machine hehe.. will read the manual though. 18:46:31 ziga`: I think we must be more demanding than other "communities". We actually demand that people do some thinking and readin, and many people (presumably because they are unable to) resent such behavior. 18:46:36 Why is Taoufik Dachraoui and why is his name all over my inbox!? 18:46:37 *Adlai* fumes 18:47:02 Please read his messages carefully so you do not reply stupidly. 18:47:18 he's taking advantage of the fact that the openmcl community is friendly 18:48:10 relatedly, I found myself cheering enometh on comp.lang.lisp 18:48:14 strange world 18:48:32 ditto 18:48:39 Xach: I know better than replying to trolls or overly-confused people... learned that lesson from Mr Seamus Macrae in c.l.l 18:48:44 enometh, sounds familiar 18:48:57 [Personal attack deleted] 18:48:59 No, you're the troll. 18:49:04 varjag: got banned from here really quite permanently 5 years ago 18:49:07 ok, sorry. last time, i promise. 18:49:12 oh 18:49:27 Ah, I knew it sounded familiar. 18:49:34 Though I wouldn't have expected you read comp.lang.lisp anymore. Isn't it that everyone says he doesn't but in fact he does?! 18:49:37 Can anyone tell me where the actual copying of files to is done in asdf-instal's installer.lisp? After the message "Installing ~A in ~A, ~A" I do not see where the retrieved files are actually copied to the systems/site directories. 18:49:40 I read it. I don't post there 18:49:58 I like having a flow of information, even if these days from comp.lang.lisp most of that is metalispinformation 18:50:13 "he's an idiot" "he's not" "wow, how can you fool several people for so long?" 18:50:18 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 18:50:26 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@173.12.30.65] has left #lisp 18:50:39 -!- Guest44224 [i=ad0c1e41@gateway/web/freenode/x-pogmvplhjfxrmqmk] has quit ["Page closed"] 18:50:51 -!- h3 [n=heretic@86.3.27.232] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:51:02 coliv_ [i=ad0c1e41@gateway/web/freenode/x-lvgxnluaihgnynfj] has joined #lisp 18:51:12 Yeah it's really quite funny because such a place can only exist in the internet :) 18:52:15 At those moments I always have to remind myself of the "Wait... there's someone wrong on the internet" xkcd, it's so damn on 18:52:29 occasionally there's a moment of insight or useful stuff in there 18:52:33 *tcr* falls for it all the time 18:53:09 without the metainformation, and how that can be used to judge where to spend time when posters discover places other than comp.lang.lisp, I'm not sure it would be worth it 18:53:35 (for me) 18:54:28 Krystof: what do you mean by metainformation? 18:54:49 nvm, found it 18:55:02 -!- anekos [n=anekos@pl712.nas925.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:55:43 moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 18:55:50 some of these people end up posting to mailing lists that I read more carefully 18:56:02 I use comp.lang.lisp to help judge which messages I can ignore 18:56:58 anekos [n=anekos@219.102.75.200] has joined #lisp 18:57:19 I've just remembered: that external-formats branch of mine, which feels like a huge overhaul -- that was something I got sucked into when I actually _meant_ to be doing other Unicode stuff 18:57:48 distracted by (a) sap-ref-16 being miscompiled and (b) the force-end-of-file restart not working 18:57:48 sheesh 18:57:50 -!- drag` [n=user@82.113.106.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:57:53 I'd better get a blog post out of it 18:58:00 drag` [n=user@82.113.106.86] has joined #lisp 18:58:53 And I should find a topic to abuse my new latex system (: 18:59:21 Another question - how can I get rainbow parenthesis in emacs like these I have in VIM http://www.shrani.si/f/2K/Rv/v6vw0cH/picture-3.png 18:59:39 pkhuong: what new latex system? Sounds interesting (again, to me) 18:59:48 Looks like most lisp hackers don't like these, but I've become accustomed to them. 19:00:39 ziga`: I think that's much more of an emacs question... 19:00:44 ie, an #emacs question. 19:01:03 Adlai: true, I'll try #emacs 19:01:15 I use tex4ht to generate xhtml + png, and extract the body (and rewrite the image urls) to generate blosxom posts. The original plan was to rewrite the blosxom part in CL too, but there's no point in fixing something that works very well and isn't even mine (: 19:01:20 ziga`: well, just get accustomed to no rainbow parenthesis 19:01:38 Hehe 19:01:40 ziga`: start here 19:01:47 you could ask pkhuong if he still uses his hack 19:01:47 If just highlightingc matching parens when your cursor is on one is enough, I can dig up the bit of .emacs that does that for me. 19:02:17 *Adlai* actually has his paren face almost invisible, and has gotten used to that 19:02:18 I have highligting working.. 19:02:21 and the answer is no, I never did use that hack. My parens are grey on black. 19:02:59 Light grey hopefully? 19:03:08 chris2 [n=chris@p5B169FFE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:03:57 Probably. 19:04:03 seangrov` [n=user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:07 probabilistically? 19:04:34 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 19:04:44 pkhuong: do you keep the latex source too, to glue all your blog posts into a thesis? (A PhD for the 2010s? :-) 19:06:01 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-143-38.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:08 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:07:20 *attila_lendvai* groans on git... "fatal: Cannot do hard reset with paths." 19:07:53 Of course, I keep the latex... I don't think I've ever written about my day job though. 19:08:26 It seems to me like highligting parentheses would be light highlighting whitespace in Java. 19:08:32 *like 19:09:01 Adlai: try now? 19:09:43 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:09:48 *beach* defines an Emacs abbrev for highlighting, 'cause it's too hard to type. 19:10:30 beach i'd assume you no longer see the parentheses 19:10:58 Guthur: That's kind of what I mean, yes. 19:11:24 Why would you highlight something you normally don't even see. 19:11:48 attila_lendvai: checkout the files. 19:12:24 pkhuong: thanks. meanwhile i've git reset --hard and redone my changes by hand (only a few) 19:12:48 I don't know who ever made up that Lispers do not see parentheses, but it's obviously not true. 19:12:51 i have one minor issue where a function is too big for the window, made checking that the parentheses was match a tad difficult 19:13:05 Parentheses have semantic meaning in Lisp 19:13:09 you have to see them 19:13:17 Guthur: split it in smaller functions. 19:13:20 otherwise you won't understand Lisp code 19:13:34 Today, I did a lecture in my Software Project Management course that had two Lisp-favorable messages. The first one was about scripting languages and the reason we have those is that we chose a static language for the main implementation, so we are stuck with the combination of one static language and one slow language. 19:13:44 pkhuong i knew someone would say that hhh, its not possible 19:14:07 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@62.203.17.229] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 19:14:07 Guthur: I doubt that. 19:14:36 The second one was about DSLs and that we can implement such a language as preprocessor (with known problems) as an interpreter (hard, slow), as a compiler (very hard, but fast), or as an embedded language. 19:15:33 Now the embedded language implementation requires a host language with syntactic extensions, which would be either C or C++ (where macros are implemented in a preprocessor so same problems), or in Lisp. 19:15:40 I disagree about writing interpreters or compilers being hard or very hard. 19:16:00 pkhuong: It convinces my students because they would be unable to do so. 19:16:25 pkhuong to be honest i think my font is too large 19:16:27 I would blame lack of practice more than unability. 19:16:45 pkhuong: Like I said, this is about Software Project Management, so it is about what kind of people they need to hire for different choices that they might make. 19:16:53 i'd i like to have a second window with the repl at the bottom 19:17:03 and i* 19:18:13 Guthur: most people have widescreen monitors now. It makes more sense to have the REPL to the side than under your working frame/buffer. 19:18:35 pkhuong: The hard part is that if you go with a totally new language you also have to write up a new tool chain. 19:18:59 -!- seangrove [n=user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:19:10 Lisp's Lisp, you can throw your known tool set at that mud 19:19:25 ... and it's still a ball of mud! 19:19:28 personal preference really, i like it at the bottom, and i only have 21" of widescreen, not huge 19:19:45 oh, poor Guthur, only 21" widescreen. 19:19:46 pkhuong: Since the software industry (at least here) is unable to estimate differences in productivity, they measure what they can, i.e. salary, so they hire cheap graduates of 2-year IT programs. My message is that these people couldn't write an interpreter or a compiler even if they had to, and they would not have the skills required to read papers on how to do it either. 19:19:54 *Adlai* makes do with a laptop. 19:20:08 tcr: IIUC, beach's point is that embedded DSLs are much easier to write than non-embedded ones. IOW, simple macros instead of a separate language implementation + foreign interface. 19:20:49 adlai i mentioned it encase i assumed i had some uber widescreen monster on my desk 19:20:52 And you really disagree with that point? 19:21:06 he assumed* 19:21:07 yes. 19:21:17 *Fare* is happy with the define-simple-dispatcher macro that XCVB uses to create extensible "little languages" in Lisp. 19:21:42 I heartily recommend it. Works well with multiple dispatch, too. 19:21:43 It's not fundamentally harder... You're maybe looking at a little more boilerplate code. 19:22:17 anyway the function in question only contained the event macro for lispbuilder-sdl, not exactly possible to break up 19:22:31 pkhuong: One of my main points is that if you use an embedded language, you can import from the host language lots of stuff like arithmetic, looping constructs, OO-systems, etc. which you would have to re-implement if you were to write a compiler or an interpreter. 19:22:57 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@adsl-84-227-56-111.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 19:23:17 beach: but you're also stuck with the host's control and scoping operators. 19:23:35 Indeed, which is not too bad if the host language is CL. 19:23:48 But that's about convenience, not difficulty. 19:24:18 fine, but convenience translates into time, which is what this course is about. 19:24:58 If difficulty is measured by the amount of bugs that are in the result, convenience can reduce difficulty 19:25:29 pkhuong: But, yes, there is nothing "difficult" about writing compilers and interpreters. In fact, it is one of the most researched domains of CS. 19:26:20 tcr: I would also argue YAGNI on a complex set of control operators, OO, etc. 19:26:29 i think most people not writing translators for a living would disagree 19:26:59 YAGNI - what is GNI? 19:27:02 pkhuong: How's YAGNI relevant? It's not like you had to write that stuff 19:27:17 Gonna Need It 19:27:33 tcr: no, but if you don't need it, then the point that they're available is moot. 19:27:37 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@42-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:27:47 YAGNI -- until you do, and then life sucks. 19:27:56 varjag: I think I understand what pkhuong mean by "difficult, and that's a valid point, but from the point of view of a Software Project Manager with a given staff, given budget, and (especially) given management, things might be different. 19:27:56 So the cost that should be measured is not the one of replicating all that is available, but all that is needed. 19:28:15 Of course 19:28:44 ok 19:29:12 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 19:29:36 But tell that jsnell who has to maintain some crude dsl which was extended over and over again 19:29:49 pkhuong: That is also a valid point that I discuss. Some DSL specifically do not want to import everything from some host language, perhaps because they want the language to be less powerful than Turing complete (in order to be able to apply some static checks). 19:29:50 in most cases, a DSL has to be growable 19:30:30 Just about everything is hard until you've tried (failed) a couple times. Most people agree that riding a bike is easy. 19:30:52 pkhuong: And I am careful to avoid saying that everyone should us Lisp macros and then everything will be fine for all kinds of software. 19:30:52 most people don't know about gyroscopes 19:31:15 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@gprs25.swisscom-mobile.ch] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:31:16 -!- lukego_ is now known as lukego 19:31:53 But I think it is a valid point to make, especially since this crowd is mostly anti-Lisp (for reasons I can only guess). 19:31:58 The topic was not that writing an implementation is hard but that embedding is easier in many, if not most, cases 19:32:09 pkhuong: also, many people can never be convinced that they should try and fail a couple of times 19:32:14 or at least not convinced by me 19:32:16 tcr: significantly easier ("hard" and "very hard"). 19:32:24 Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has joined #lisp 19:32:37 Krystof: That's the essence of my "psychology of learning" essay. 19:32:45 where is there disagreement, here? 19:32:51 Uh, well, let's become relativistic and agree that it depends 19:33:04 Fare: Do we have to disagree in order to discuss the fine points? 19:33:31 Guthur: lispbuilder-sdl working ok for you? 19:33:49 balooga ya its great so far 19:33:55 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:34:35 balooga building a wee widget library 19:35:17 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.211] has joined #lisp 19:35:56 This year, I am less sneaky about my message that they are really missing out if they eliminate Lisp based on superficial aspects such as "too many parentheses" than I was in the past. 19:36:08 beach: I'm convinced that the intrinsic difficulty in defining the semantics of one's language makes whatever difference there may be between writing an EDSL or a non-embedded one, at best, noise, after some practice. 19:36:47 And when the semantics between the DSL and the host differ greatly, the non-embedded implementation will very probably be more natural and simpler to write. 19:36:48 and then a game. I would recommend to anyone who needs some 2D graphics, and input. I haven't tried the sound yet. 19:37:04 beach: I think that "performance" vs "knowledge" should more be "in a hurry" vs "enjoying it". 19:37:18 pkhuong: That sounds right. 19:37:33 i.e. do you consider the activity as a source of pleasure or a cost to minimize. 19:38:30 pkhuong, the EDSL makes it easy to move things from one to the other. 19:38:42 Fare: It is hard to sell "pleasure" as a valid goal in such a course, unless you can give some correlation between money and pleasure. 19:39:11 oh, I need to move some functionality from outside to within the DSL or vice-versa... easy with an EDSL, not so with a split-world DSL. 19:39:29 h3 [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 19:39:31 Fare: a foreign interface mostly involves boilerplate code, and the split world can be an advantage. 19:39:36 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:39:45 Fare: It is clear that I develop software for pleaure, but then I am basically paid for pleasure. This is not the case in industry. 19:40:05 beach: money is just the liquidest means of exchange through which you exchange the unpleasurable for the pleasurable. 19:40:17 i.e. non-descript 19:40:42 Fare: I take it you did not invent that? 19:40:52 pkhuong, once again, if it weren't somewhat split, it wouldn't be a DSL but a library. 19:40:52 pkhuong: So I just comitted the reversed-numbering of restarts in sldb 19:41:11 No complains in 2 months! 19:41:27 pkhuong, an EDSL does acknowledge that - it just lowers the barrier to entry to DSL benefits 19:41:39 Fare: The point is that a library in some languages cannot contain syntactic extensions, so you end up with "languages" like OpenGL. 19:42:02 -!- ziga` [n=ziga`@89.142.58.170] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:42:08 -!- xan_ is now known as xan 19:42:14 beach, I think the first good theory of Money is Cantillon's book in the 18th century. He may not have said it as concisely. 19:42:24 beach: I was struck by that when reading Alvy Ray Smith's description of the Altamira Composer design and implementation 19:42:30 (if only because the vocabulary was missing at the time) 19:42:37 opengl is a victim of design by committee i think 19:43:03 beach: he defined a fairly complete and abstract system of data types and operations, and it was implemented as a long list of C function calls with somewhat ugly names. But it was nice to see the thought he put into the abstract level. 19:44:10 Guthur: and by the fact that the host language does not have syntactic extensions. 19:44:15 Reminds me of that discussion after the BostonHaskell meeting about how djb writes C in a way that is probably the projection of a higher-level language in his brain. 19:44:28 Guthur: That's kind of an ironic statement in the presence of common lisp. :-) 19:44:38 Fare: ah, that's a good example too 19:44:42 tmh lol ya, never thought of that 19:44:58 I like the BostonHaskell crowd. 19:45:12 but sure lispers just keep reinventing it anyway, *ducks* 19:45:21 Fare: or of a low level language... c.f. djbfft. 19:45:30 with what function can i split a list into a list of sublists where the first sublist contains the first 10 elements of the original list, the second the second 10 and so on? 19:46:07 Anyway, the point is that it looked like at least 2 people (out of 24) started thinking about this, which is a pretty could success rate as I estimate these days. 19:46:12 for example (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23) should become ((1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20) (21 22 23))? 19:46:21 or reimplementing, umm 19:46:23 pkhuong, that too. In any case, of a language adapted to describing the semantics of the task at hand. 19:46:36 plutonas, ask your TA for help. 19:46:49 Fare: i'm a phd student, i have no TA 19:46:54 and this doesn't have to do with uni at all 19:46:55 plutonas: Very simple using LOOP 19:46:55 clhs subseq 19:46:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subseq.htm 19:46:58 tell me the function name 19:47:00 no i don't want a loop 19:47:03 plutonas, with side effects, use push and pop and reverse. 19:47:06 i could do it with dotimes 19:47:06 in a loop 19:47:15 without side-effect, use collectors. 19:47:19 plutonas: there are no builtins that do this, but you could right your own with LOOP or some of the built-in list functions. 19:47:22 plutonas: Why not? Loop + subseq is probably the best way to do it. 19:47:28 collectors thats what i need 19:47:30 huh subseq? god no 19:47:30 or iterators, or co-routines. 19:47:36 loop is not cool 19:47:40 plutonas: and if you don't have a TA, you are free to use loop! 19:47:53 plutonas: LOOP is the new black. 19:47:54 beach: wouldn't using subseq give you O(n^2) time complexity? 19:47:58 hello everyone. I have a question and google is not my friend. I seen videos (can't find them, tho) where the author is using emacs to edit lisp code. He types an abbreviated symbol like "(w-o-f", hits some keybinding and it resolves to "(with-open-file" without showing a completion window. I know that slime-fuzzy-completion-mode is close, but it shows a completion window. Anyone know how to do this? 19:47:59 plutonas: don't say such crap, please! 19:48:04 beach: a friend of me does something in javascript and i told him that functionally this can be done better 19:48:12 plutonas: LOOP is how Common Lisp got collectors 19:48:15 rrice: maybe buy him some ice cream? Google likes ice cream. 19:48:21 (eq 'loop 'cool) => NIL indeed 19:48:32 plutonas: Good luck to you then. 19:48:42 Adlai: no. You just traverse the list twice. 19:48:57 plutonas, you can also use monads to express collection... 19:49:01 rrice: use slime-complete-symbol* as your symbol completion function 19:49:18 rrice: it's in the slime-c-p-c contrib 19:49:18 i remember in haskell this was done pretty neat, but i don't remember the haskell syntax, only had some course once 19:49:19 pkhuong: I'm thinking of (subseq list 0 10) (subseq list 10 20) ... 19:49:30 LOOP ftw! 19:49:33 pkhuong: that would be bad. 19:49:39 tcr: hmm... let me try that.. brb 19:49:47 hm, subseq is nice 19:49:56 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-16-19.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:50:06 I heard your mom is, too 19:50:35 pkhuong: I guess if you used subseq to split the list each time, that would be better performance. ie, (subseq list 0 10) (subseq list 10 nil) then repeat on the result of the second. 19:51:11 -!- Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has quit ["Balooga has no reason"] 19:51:28 hm 19:51:37 plutonas: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/darcs/alexandria/modify-macros.lisp 19:51:44 i'm curious about the haskell way now, i'll ask in #haskell, i'm sure there'll be something similar in lisp 19:51:47 plutonas: the function BREAKUP is almost what you want 19:51:49 Can anyone using clisp confirm to me that ext:run-program does not return standard error in its :output argument? 19:52:39 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:52:40 tcr thanks 19:52:47 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 19:53:02 quidnunc: the implementation notes only say stdout 19:53:44 Well it looks like asdf-installer doesn't tell you if tar fails then 19:53:51 Xach: Thanks 19:54:37 tcr: yes! that's exactly what I want... thx. 19:54:45 *cmm-* is slightly amused by the EDSL vs. DLS discussion. sure, the cost of writing a translator might be in the noise, but what about the other tools expected in a "production" language? like a nice debugger, if it's turing-complete. a profiler. a coverage tool 19:55:30 cmm-: I don't see how an EDSL is different from a non-embedded one here. If anything, the non-embedded interpreter will be easier to debug. 19:55:42 (and so will programs running in that interpreter) 19:56:04 pkhuong: the second point is not really obvious to me 19:56:28 cmm-: You would have to re-implement those. On the other hand, if you take the easy-way out in your EDSL and you don't do enough syntax checks, then you let your user debug code in terms of the host language, which is also not nice. 19:57:01 cmeme [n=cmeme@boa.b9.com] has joined #lisp 19:57:05 (admittedly, the host language's tools may not be really what the EDSL's user expects, but at least they are usually there) 19:57:16 Ideally debugger etc of the host language should be customizable 19:57:26 that's where CL doesn't shine 19:57:28 cmm-: the host's language tools are still available in a non-embedded implementation. 19:57:29 I suppose in the end, it's less a question of DSL / EDSL than of support tools for languages in general 19:57:40 map (take 5) $ iterate tail [1..10] <-- the haskell way 19:57:48 pkhuong: Oh, yeah? How? 19:57:52 For instance, do you count the "language levels" of PLT as a DSL? an EDSL? 19:58:02 -!- drag` [n=user@82.113.106.86] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:58:07 pkhuong: but extremely not helpful if it's compiled 19:58:42 pkhuong: Oh, I see what you mean, like using GDB to debug SBCL code. 19:58:44 plutonas: You can also look at http://items.sjbach.com/544/surveying-emacs-lisp#comment-2233 19:58:51 kpreid [n=kpreid@209.217.212.34] has joined #lisp 19:59:26 cpt_nemo: thanks, will look 19:59:26 plutonas: it's wrong, isn't it? 19:59:46 stassats: i don't know didn't run it... i should perhaps 20:00:06 have no ghc installed here... 20:00:15 pkhuong: I would like to have a discussion with you about this at some point, and I know at least one colleague who would like that as well. Have you thought about applying for a job in Bordeaux at some point? 20:00:17 plutonas: There are all kinds of variants for cutting a list into pieces on that blog page: with loop, with recursion, etc. 20:00:25 #haskell has an eval bot 20:01:07 beach: the embedded DSL can be as hard as the compiled implementation to debug using the host. The interpreted DSL isn't too bad. 20:01:17 2 files changed, 70 insertions(+), 589 deletions(-) 20:01:23 nice. 20:02:32 On SBCL, TIME reports 4 page faults. What is the significance of a page fault? 20:02:54 of course, I have not yet proved that my changes work 20:02:56 pkhuong: You didn't answer my question! :) 20:02:58 Fare: i do have cl-launch installed. i have it checked out next to xcvb and i ran a sudo make install 20:03:04 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=nyao@217.149.190.2] has quit ["  ,     ."] 20:03:20 Fare: any idea what that Couldn't resolve "/cl-launch" to a valid module from grain "/xcvb" means? 20:03:25 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit ["leaving"] 20:03:43 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:03:44 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:03:47 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:04:06 tmh: write barrier... It can help you understand why you spend very little time in user time or why GCing seems more expensive than usual. 20:04:12 beach: not for a couple years (: 20:04:25 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Client Quit] 20:04:48 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has left #lisp 20:04:52 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:04:58 pkhuong: Will it affect the execution of the form? 20:05:03 attila_lendvai, your XCVB_PATH is not set 20:05:13 and you didn't specify a --xcvb-path option either 20:05:13 pkhuong: In terms of values and results. 20:05:21 pkhuong: The lab where work (LaBRI) has finally agreed to create a research group in "Software Engineering", and me and some colleagues think that it should initially focus on "Software language engineering" which is a nice, scientific sub-domain of SE. We are planning to hire Pascal Costanza, and we already have Charles Consel. Still not interested? 20:05:22 tmh: no. 20:05:25 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-36-117.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:05:43 and you didn't install stuff in system-default locations. 20:06:03 beach: is there a part where you discuss large systems? 20:06:28 Fare: i start build like this: XCVB_PATH=~/workspace/ make and ~/workspace have both xcvb and cl-launch 20:06:35 and where organization management interacts with Conway's law to shape the resulting system? 20:06:54 do you use magic =~ expansion from zsh? 20:07:02 Fare: In my course? Don't think so, no. 20:07:07 Fare: without the path, it dies sooner, with asdf. so it finds asdf... 20:07:10 xcvb ssp shows if there are any conflict 20:07:17 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:21 xcvb ssp is your friend 20:07:23 beach: I don't know what I want to do when I grow up (: For now I'll focus on getting my OR work done with some compilation and a dash of PLT on the side. 20:07:24 Fare: XCVB_PATH=/home/ati/workspace/ make is the same 20:07:42 XCVB_PATH=/home/ati/workspace/ xcvb show-search-path 20:07:49 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:07:54 | less 20:08:09 *attila_lendvai* stares at that currently 20:08:23 it's sorted alphabetically 20:08:53 pkhuong: Would you like to come visit to see whether you like the region? 20:09:00 attila_lendvai, maybe you can contribute a section to the docs or troubleshooting or tell me where to improve. 20:09:01 Fare: remind me of conway's law! 20:09:18 Fare: there's no cl-launch in the list (as expected, because the cl-lauch dir contains no lisp files, nor build.xcvb) 20:09:46 beach: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway's_Law ...organizations which design systems ... are constrained to produce designs which are copies of the communication structures of these organizations.[1] 20:09:58 beach: I expect to travel and get some out-of-province collaboration going in 2-3 years. 20:10:21 pkhuong: I'll still be here. Keep me informed. 20:10:39 "After some initial estimates of difficulty and time, five people were assigned to the COBOL job and three to the ALGOL job. The resulting COBOL compiler ran in five phases, the ALG0L compiler ran in three. " 20:10:52 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-186-27.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:11:12 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-189-253.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:11:31 Fare: Though I don't use them by name, I definitely warn against such behavior on the part of a project. 20:11:42 Fare: and the early 60's one-pass syntax directed compilers were all written by one-person teams? 20:12:17 pkhuong, probably 20:13:01 tcr: this is weird, I can push now, but I get a message that there are conflicts. 20:13:21 what conflicts? 20:13:24 I'm not sure why, though, because all of my changes are "on top" of yours 20:13:51 well 20:13:51 do work from that fixed-up repo? 20:13:51 how can I get darcs to say what the conflicts are? 20:13:59 _icecube_ [n=icecube@p549C4477.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:09 -!- _icecube_ [n=icecube@p549C4477.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:14:13 hmm, I'll try just re-cloning the repo. hold on. 20:17:17 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 20:17:22 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:17:38 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 20:18:28 Fare: i'd happy to improve on the manual, but i'm completely lost with cl-launch. is this supposed to be something that xcvb can find? my git clone'd dir only contains a cl-launch.sh 20:18:49 marioxcc [n=user@201.132.137.190] has joined #lisp 20:19:10 rares [n=rares@130.13.176.255] has joined #lisp 20:19:20 -!- rares [n=rares@130.13.176.255] has left #lisp 20:20:24 -!- fiveop_ [n=fiveop@g229102031.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 20:20:51 -!- |coyoes| [n=alex@144.162.132.203] has quit ["May the Coyoes cook you some hot chili some day!"] 20:21:03 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:21:12 Ok, I want to save-lisp not save-lisp-and-die. 20:21:47 fork 20:22:52 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219.89.105.20] has joined #lisp 20:23:31 tmh: yes, fork then save-lisp-and-die 20:23:41 (which will not work very well if you have threads, of course) 20:23:56 attila_lendvai, did you read cl-launch's 00INSTALL ? 20:24:05 yes, it has a binary 20:24:12 that must be installed in your PATH 20:24:25 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:24:37 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 20:24:37 *And* it has a self-extractible library of things that can be compiled with ASDF or XCVB. 20:24:41 I want to be make sure I understand how save-lisp-and-die works. I have global symbols bound to hash-tables, those will be saved? 20:24:58 yes 20:25:01 Fare: ati@ed101:~/workspace/xcvb$ cl-launch --version 20:25:03 cl-launch 2.30 20:25:11 attila_lendvai, that's the latest, congrats 20:25:11 What does "the stack is unwound in the process" mean? 20:25:14 tcr: I tried getting the repo again, applying my changes, and pushing, and got the same error. 20:25:22 Fare: but slad doesn't like threads anyway 20:25:23 "darcs failed: Refusing to apply patches leading to conflicts." 20:25:36 tmh: you lose your current continuation. 20:25:53 btw, if I fork and I want to unwind the stack violently -- how do I do that? 20:25:54 Fare: I'm at the top level, so that doesn't apply? 20:25:56 tmh: slad performs a very aggressive garbage collection and saves the result to a file, plus a pointer to the function to call at startup. 20:26:16 Fare: i've installed it at the very beginning... still, make results in "Couldn't resolve "/cl-launch" to a valid module from grain "/xcvb"" 20:26:20 tmh: the toplevel is run by a loop that has a bit of stack 20:26:30 plus local bindings for * ** ***, etc. 20:26:47 attila_lendvai, what does xcvb ssp tell you? pm me. 20:27:11 attila_lendvai, did you also install the self-extracted library? 20:27:29 pkhuong: Do I need to specify that function or will it just default to the standard REPL? 20:27:37 LiamH1 [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 20:27:52 tmh: you get the REPL function by default. 20:27:59 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:28:01 Adlai: Send me the patches per mail, let's see if manually applying them tells the same 20:28:05 Ah, yes, seening that in the docs, sorry. 20:28:09 *seeing* 20:28:53 Fare: no idea what is "the self-extracted library". grepped various dirs for it... 20:30:15 rares [n=rares@130.13.176.255] has joined #lisp 20:30:26 -!- rares [n=rares@130.13.176.255] has left #lisp 20:32:11 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209.217.212.34] has quit [] 20:32:17 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:25 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:35:12 attila_lendvai, cl-launch -I /usr/local/share/common-lisp/source/cl-launch -B install_path will install stuff at the specified location 20:35:20 the cl-launch Makefile does that for you. 20:35:38 said path should be in your XCVB_PATH, asdf:*central-registry*, what have you. 20:35:46 the xcvb release-tarball tries to do that for you. 20:35:50 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 20:36:01 if you install dependencies separately, you have to do it separately. 20:36:24 Fare: i have patches in xcvb, i want to bootstrap it 20:39:04 -!- tcr [n=tcr@138.246.7.146] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:39:21 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.211] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:42:11 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.154.246.45] has joined #lisp 20:42:39 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:43:04 "Cannot save core with multiple threads running." Swank server, right? I can't find the command to stop the swank server. 20:43:14 Oh, stop-server 20:43:31 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:43:38 -!- cmeme [n=cmeme@boa.b9.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:43:49 tmh: what's your data like? Maybe you want to mmap them to simplify development. 20:45:02 pkhuong: Reading the data isn't a problem, now. Now I have approximately results from approximately 12 hours of calculation in my lisp image. I need to apply updates to my OS and I want to make sure that I don't have to calculate the results, again. 20:45:48 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.154.246.45] has quit [Client Quit] 20:46:06 (or the results :) 20:46:12 attila_lendvai, I pushed a more self-documenting installation for cl-launch. 20:46:49 tmh: you can stop-server, fork(save-lisp-and-die), restart-server. 20:47:35 blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 20:47:37 drag` [n=user@82.113.106.82] has joined #lisp 20:47:39 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [No route to host] 20:47:39 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 20:47:44 attila_lendvai, I'm sorry it's so hard. You might be my second user who doesn't just use the release tarball. 20:47:49 5 files changed, 114 insertions(+), 1652 deletions(-) 20:47:55 -!- blackened`_ is now known as blackened` 20:48:03 gdoteof [n=gdot@sbhsa32.ma.burl.vt.sover.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:13 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-tglstazsgshdqhaw] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:48:14 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 20:49:21 Fare: it's not that bad compared to all the crazy shell stuff and forking needed 20:51:06 O-M-G. swank:stop-server exited 20:51:11 quit 20:51:25 Krystof: what are you doing ? 20:51:30 -!- quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:51:39 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1"] 20:51:55 Why did it do that? 20:51:57 *attila_lendvai* bootstrapped xcvb 20:52:42 *tmh* stares, with a slight bit of nausea, at his shell command prompt. 20:52:45 -!- seangrov` [n=user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:52:56 attila_lendvai, what isn't bad? 20:53:05 attila_lendvai, congrats! 20:53:10 fe[nl]ix: removing all the hideous cut'n'paste stuff in sbcl/src/code/external-formats/ 20:53:23 Seriously, is swank:stop-server supposed to sb-ext:quit? 20:53:46 Fare: the hardness of the install/bootstrap. i got lost only 2-3 times needing your help... 20:54:20 tmh: what slime version? 20:54:44 tmh: slime has its habits... i.e. you don't want to press 'k' on a line in the connection list on the official slime. (hint: calls (quit)) 20:55:07 The last entry in the changelog is 2009-08-21 20:55:23 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:55:33 right, i recently fixed an issue where stop-server was killing the wrong thread 20:55:51 is there a way I can have a lisp prompt open in a terminal, and an editor open as well.. make changes to the lisp source in the editor and have the lisp prompt reflect those changes without having to reload the file? 20:56:12 minion: tell gdoteof about slime 20:56:14 gdoteof: please see slime: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/slime 20:56:28 stassats: So, I should follow the bleeding edge? 20:57:07 yes 20:57:09 hrm.. i was using it but it is cumbersome switching screens and what not. I want two seperate windows instead of having to switch back and forth 20:57:36 can i have two instances of emacs.. that would be fine.. one with the prompt the other editing the file 20:57:37 you can have two windows in one emacs frame 20:57:44 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:57:56 C-x 2 20:58:20 Fare: fyi, i also had to increase /proc/sys/vm/max_map_count 20:58:31 "i got lost only 2-3 times" 20:58:41 attila_lendvai, for XCVB ???? 20:59:13 Fare: for (xcvbm:build-and-load :rfc2388-binary), although it took suspiciously long until it failed 20:59:34 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 20:59:55 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:00:02 uh, why should XCVB require more mappings than any other Lisp compilation??? 21:00:12 oh, maybe it's scanning the paths... i have loads of cl libs installed 21:00:21 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["May the Coyoes cook you some hot chili some day!"] 21:00:31 If I am connected to a remote lisp and enter a long running form in the REPL from emacs, will that form continue to execute if I disconnect from the remote lisp? 21:00:34 on SBCL, it's using find to scan the paths. 21:00:38 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:50 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 21:00:55 I haven't tried the native **/build.xcvb with Xof's new external-format yet. 21:01:00 *tmh* feels like he just cut off his leg with a swiss army chainsaw. 21:01:14 tmh: you're using perl++ ? 21:01:23 bah it's so fucking cumbersome i just want to do lisp not spend ten minutes trying to figure out how to split a window vertically 21:01:24 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 21:01:47 gdoteof: Jeebus, what's so hard about C-x 3? 21:01:49 tmh: probably not - if the connection closes, the next time Lisp accesses it it will get an exception. 21:01:59 >.< 21:02:00 unless your form does no i/o whatsoever 21:02:53 -!- knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:02:55 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-14-57.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:58 Fare: it does, and I probably can address the exception from the terminal of the remote lisp. That's ok, I'll enter the command from the terminal prompt after I get everything setup. 21:03:05 attila_lendvai, did you look at the output in your *inferior-lisp* buffer? 21:03:20 -!- swathanthran [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has left #lisp 21:03:36 tmh: you may want to attach a slime session from an emacs in a screen on the same host as your lisp 21:04:35 (compared to what crazy shell / forking needed? the forking done by xcvb itself?) 21:04:59 Fare: yeah, but I'm going remote this week, leaving my workstation on and wanted to fire off this analysis before I left, didn't want to leave emacs up, but that's probably no big deal to leave emacs running on the workstation. 21:05:49 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-143-38.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:06:01 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit ["leaving"] 21:06:01 emacs in a screen is no big deal compared to your core 21:06:48 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 21:07:18 What exactly do you mean by emacs in a screen? 21:07:29 tmh: GNU Screen 21:07:36 Ok, just verifying. 21:07:41 or you can use emacs 23 and use the daemon mode 21:08:09 p0a [n=user@athedsl-376681.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 21:08:14 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 21:08:22 tmh: screen -S myemacs emacs 21:08:27 Hello I've thought of a macro that does the following job and I need help implementing it 21:08:32 tmh: C-a d 21:08:41 tmh: screen -RR -x -S myemacs 21:08:49 man screen 21:08:50 http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man1/screen.1.html 21:08:50 dlowe are you using 23? 21:08:51 daemon mode is pure gold. 21:08:55 The problem is that I want to change every occurence of x with y and every occurence of y with x in a sexp 21:09:01 Guthur: I am. 21:09:06 Fare: Thanks. I was just reading the man page, your instructions will help 21:09:13 I don't usually use screen. 21:09:18 I can use subst, but that will change only x's to y's or y's to x's 21:09:19 There are still some warts. show-paren-mode seems to be per-emacsclient, which is annoying 21:09:30 dlowe did you notice it indenting slightly differently than before 21:09:38 Funny story, I'm running on RHEL, they ship 21.3. 21:09:43 I usually configure screen to use ^] as its escape instead of the default ^a 21:09:47 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84.217.2.149] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:09:53 clhs sublis 21:09:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sublis.htm 21:10:05 p0a: sublis maybe? 21:10:17 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:10:19 stassats: right :-). I've even used this function before 21:10:21 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 21:10:23 it might be the new slime though. I just remember my indentation being cleaner on a previous setup, not a biggy though 21:10:25 dlowe, pkhuong so daemon mode is emacs without a default frame? 21:10:28 but I did not remember common lisp had it, thanks 21:10:59 I usually run emacs in a detachtty with a emacs-server, and connect to it with emacsclient -t 21:11:10 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 21:11:19 <3 daemon mode 21:11:23 Fare: well, really it's multi-tty that's golden, daemon only makes it more convenient (no need to detachtty or screen). 21:11:28 I just drop emacs --daemon in my .xinitrc 21:11:39 Fare: I may start doing that. I run emacs-server anyway. 21:11:56 I only switched to fsf emacs because it at long last had the multi-tty mode that I so loved in xemacs. 21:12:26 Ralith, and then emacsclient -t will find it? 21:12:32 that's cool. 21:12:34 yes 21:12:37 Fare: yep 21:12:50 no more detachtty / screen horror! 21:12:52 http://pastebin.com/d3964c006 -- why am i getting a warning that *db* is neither declared nor bound, twice 21:13:02 Fare: or -c if you like the GUI. 21:13:43 gdoteof: because it isn't? did you C-c C-c it? 21:14:00 yeah thats when i got the error.. doing C-c C-c 21:14:01 yeah, this daemon this sounds neat 21:14:02 well, warning 21:14:11 C-c C-c on defvar 21:14:12 Compilation finished: 2 warnings 21:14:23 you can compile the whole file with C-c C-k 21:14:25 in doc strings 21:14:31 ooo 21:14:38 C-c C-c does a line 21:14:39 is it preferrable if I break them at a 80-characters 21:14:42 Wait, how does screen affect C-a in emacs? emacs never get's it, I take it. 21:14:43 C-c C-k does a file 21:14:52 that helps 21:14:54 and I continue from the indented level or should I continue from the beginning of the line? 21:14:56 tmh: C-a a 21:14:58 tmh: just use daemon. 21:15:05 tmh: C-a a. You can also use C-z for screen. 21:15:15 C-c C-c does a definition 21:15:18 C-c C-c 21:15:19 right 21:15:22 not a line 21:15:24 Ralith: RHEL ships 21.3 21:15:39 lisp source doesn't have lines 21:15:48 Sorry, 21.4.1 21:15:51 tmh: and you can't build a more recent version? 21:15:54 p0a, okay thanks 21:15:57 but it has line-breaks! 21:17:38 Ralith: I rely on the canned packages to the greatest extent possible. 21:18:05 is it preferrable if I break them at a 80-characters and continue from the indented level or the beginning of the line? 21:18:12 tmh: your funeral. 21:18:21 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:18:28 ie do you prefer " foobar" or " foo bar" 21:19:41 -!- KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-14-57.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:19:44 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-52.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 21:19:45 Fare: is that normal that xcvb ssp takes loooooooong. 1+ minute now, working on the hard drive... i have symlinks there, maybe find goes offtrack or something? 21:20:02 p0a: i prefer indented 21:20:21 -!- moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:20:29 your symlinks may be fooling it 21:20:31 stassats: I take it documentation tools are smart enough to correctly display the docs? 21:20:33 it is NOT normal 21:20:38 perhaps, i should at my docstrings, i don't remember 21:20:49 should look 21:20:58 on QRes, a fairly big system, but without directory symlinks, it's a fraction of a second 21:21:03 -!- morphling [n=stefan@89.15.137.66] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:21:23 I have changed it to use find -H though so it mostly shouldn't follow symlinks 21:22:17 Fare: i have no idea what was going on, now it's fast. i was playing with XCVB_PATH, maybe there was something wrong there before. so, this is false alarm i guess 21:22:46 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-376681.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 21:22:50 how do i reload my .emacs file without restarting emacs? 21:23:11 M-x load-file RET 21:23:40 C-M-x or C-x C-e on individual parts 21:24:23 thanks 21:24:24 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-52.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:24:46 if you put something too big in XCVB_PATH, it will suck badly 21:25:02 i.e. you put / in there, it will scan your whole filesystem. 21:25:48 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:26:20 Fare: something more fishy is happening... xcvb uses up the cpu 100% and not much happens. (random idea, there may be wrong something with fs permissions) 21:26:46 can you trace what's happening? 21:26:54 you can C-u M-x slime xcvb repl 21:26:55 cmeme [n=cmeme@boa.b9.com] has joined #lisp 21:27:17 then (xcvb::interpret- "ssp") 21:27:48 I mean (xcvb::interpret-command-line '("ssp")) 21:27:54 then debug with slime 21:28:40 Fare: loads of mprotect calls and then strace pushed sbcl to heap corruption... wierd 21:28:56 whoa. XCVB causing heap corruption? 21:28:57 as soon as i strace, sbcl dies 21:29:06 no, strace seems to interfere 21:29:09 that's strace's fault 21:29:10 I have had instability while running run-program, but not that. 21:29:20 it "handles" (doesn't handle) sigsegv 21:29:35 and clobbers sbcl's sigsegv handler 21:30:35 *attila_lendvai* reinstalls a release xcvb and checks 21:30:53 -!- coliv_ [i=ad0c1e41@gateway/web/freenode/x-lvgxnluaihgnynfj] has quit ["Page closed"] 21:31:12 this is with making xcvb with itself. maybe my previously built git head xcvb is screwed up somehow... 21:34:05 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:41:00 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 21:41:30 Fare: fyi, it happens when i build and install my own xcvb from sources, i guess it's some issue with the dependencies... maybe i'll track it down tomorrow, but meanwhile i can build working xcvb from releases. 21:41:37 -!- drgnvale [n=acristin@209.16.73.144] has left #lisp 21:41:57 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:43:18 -!- LiamH1 [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:43:30 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 21:45:05 attila_lendvai, do you have a log of the commands that lead to failure? 21:45:18 or a backtrace? 21:45:38 there might be places where I don't properly guard against misdefinitions 21:46:16 i see that in the inferior lisp buffer when master enters sldb that the child died 21:46:50 Fare: i give up for tonight, will do a git pull tomorrow morning (eu time)... 21:47:39 Fare: is it possible to build xcvb so that it starts a swank server when it starts? 21:48:33 Fare: this might be of interest to you: http://dwim.hu/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=HEAD%20hu.dwim.build;a=headblob;f=/source/build.lisp#l183 21:48:44 this is how we build images with swank inside it 21:48:54 anyone here used lispbuilder-sdl before, the modifier keys don't seem to change the sdl-keycode returned, so making it impossible to the secondary key values 21:48:55 -!- spilman [n=spilman@92.135.83.218] has quit [Client Quit] 21:49:15 i assumed it isn't normal behaviour because sdl has key values for them 21:49:55 Anyone on line familiar with the asdf source? I'm just looking at parse-component, and it looks like the dependency of load-op on compile-op is hard-coded there. 21:51:09 reading the xcvb cffi-devel mail: people don't understand the point in xcvb... 21:53:44 attila_lendvai, not yet, but I use the C-u M-x slime xcvb repl then (xcvb::interpret-command-line '("ssp")) trick quite often 21:54:14 or you could xcvb load somefilethatdoeswhatyouwant.lisp 21:54:21 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@92.195.3.10] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:54:31 attila_lendvai, the burden is on me to make the point. 21:54:36 thanks for getting it. 21:55:08 rpg: I don't know that part of asdf very well. looks like a mess to me. 21:55:27 -!- necroforest [n=jarred@pool-96-255-62-122.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:56:15 Fare: Agreed. I was trying to make a component that wouldn't be compiled, and first I clobbered the entry in component-depends-on, then the do-first slot, and finally had to give up and just set operation-done-p on compile-op. 21:56:50 load-op <= compile-op seems deeply, deeply baked into that system. Hard coded into parse-component... :-( 21:57:12 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.154.246.45] has joined #lisp 21:59:04 quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has joined #lisp 21:59:10 rpg: (defmethod perform ((op compile-op) (c load-only-file)) nil) 21:59:46 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:59:51 fe[nl]ix: Right, that works, too. But seriously, what if you want to make a component-class that simply doesn't have a compile-op? 22:00:15 It seems bad that compile-op is baked into the parser, just like it would be bad to bake numerical constants into code. 22:00:16 -!- morganb [n=user@wsip-98-188-196-29.ga.at.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:00:54 Fare: the problem with making a point is that people who don't build big systems with many dependencies will not give a damn. if it's not zero effort, like (asdf:load-system ...) then they'll complain. and the eval-when issue is not zero effort unfortunately. 22:01:52 Fare: i think file based separation with :compile-depends-on, like sequences.lisp/sequences-syntax.lisp would go though easier 22:02:27 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 22:04:30 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 22:04:56 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 22:04:59 rpg pasted "dependencies that can't be overriden" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89183 22:06:17 How do I set a breakpoint in Slime so I can "step" through the code one form at a time? 22:06:25 (break) just dumps me into the condition handler 22:10:43 moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 22:13:46 -!- TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:14:02 attila_lendvai, that's why I'm trying to make xcvb-master zero-effort 22:14:12 i.e. less effort than asdf:load-system 22:14:18 minion :memo balooga Using lispbuilder-sdl: the modifier keys do not seem to affect the sdl-key value returned eg. Shift-1 returns SDL-KEY-1, should it not return SDL-KEY-EXCLAIM 22:14:22 oops 22:14:52 separation would be nice, but can't be automated -- it requires maintainer involvement. 22:15:05 so to guaranteed smooth migration, I cannot rely on it 22:15:11 but yes, I'd like that. 22:15:21 minion :memo for balooga: Using lispbuilder-sdl: the modifier keys do not seem to affect the sdl-key value returned eg. Shift-1 returns SDL-KEY-1, should it not return SDL-KEY-EXCLAIM 22:15:48 minion: memo for balooga: Using lispbuilder-sdl: the modifier keys do not seem to affect the sdl-key value returned eg. Shift-1 returns SDL-KEY-1, should it not return SDL-KEY-EXCLAIM 22:15:49 Remembered. I'll tell balooga when he/she/it next speaks. 22:15:53 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@87.246.58.146] has quit ["Im out"] 22:15:54 sorry about that 22:18:25 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-222-180.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:25 it's zero-effort to apply a patch that includes an eval-when and to leave it there 22:19:38 Fare: eval-when's are annoying, especially if they are "not needed" for you, if it just works for you without them... 22:20:47 if your system is big enough that this matters to you, then you will understand the utility of xcvb 22:21:02 Fare: how about going a smoother approach: in the first phase load libs in the way asdf loads them... then when xcvb is picked up, people will accept the patches 22:21:02 otherwise, just leave in the eval-when's that your users request 22:21:37 Fare: users -- what? 4 of us? 22:21:37 attila: you can compile with --disable-cfasl 22:22:54 we'll see 22:22:57 in any case 22:23:07 thanks a lot for taking a try at XCVB 22:23:15 I'll do my best to make it worth your while 22:23:16 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has left #lisp 22:23:18 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-52.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 22:23:19 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:24:46 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:25:42 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:26:29 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 22:27:22 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-52.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 22:28:31 Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #lisp 22:28:39 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.154.246.45] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"] 22:28:52 Can anyone see why the following function reads a leading newline character with clisp? 22:28:57 quidnunc pasted "asdf-install:download-url-to-file" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89184 22:29:12 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:29:49 lichtblau [n=user@pD95434EE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:34:56 quidnunc: I think you need to look at how url-connection parses headers 22:35:33 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:35:44 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 22:36:03 keep in mind that the response body is separated from the headers by a blank line 22:36:05 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:36:21 that could be \r\n or \n\r or something, the http spec is specific, but the server in question might not. 22:36:40 "curl -D- [the download url] | od -x" should give you details 22:37:32 (it should be CRLF) 22:38:20 also, clisp may try to do line-ending conversion, depending on which external format it uses for the http stream (which I assume is a bivalent stream, treated as a character stream first) 22:38:21 antifuchs: Okay. This is in asdf-install. I presume it is working correctly for everyone else so I doubt it is a server issue. 22:38:34 it may be a server issue that hits clisp 22:38:43 which would support the external-format hypothesis 22:38:52 KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-14-65.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:04 and it's not the first time that asdf-install has failed to download something from an apparently conforming http server 22:39:15 it's just a very brittle piece of very old software (: 22:39:21 (and you should be using clbuild (-:) 22:39:23 antifuchs: Thanks for the good tips. 22:39:45 (hm, is there clbuild for clisp? could be a good reason to stick with asdf-install, actually) 22:41:04 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-14-65.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:41:47 good luck & good night (: 22:41:53 antifuchs: Thanks 22:42:00 good night to you as well 22:43:37 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.154.246.45] has joined #lisp 22:43:56 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:49:12 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B169FFE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:50:23 ace4016 [i=ace4016@76.170.134.79] has joined #lisp 22:55:53 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@32.154.246.45] has joined #lisp 22:56:03 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.154.246.45] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:56:03 -!- nvoorhies_ is now known as nvoorhies 23:06:20 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:10:24 ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.150.185] has joined #lisp 23:11:02 -!- quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:11:28 _8david [n=user@pD95413CA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:22:31 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 23:22:35 quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has joined #lisp 23:24:36 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.154.246.45] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:25:29 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:42 sepult`` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-26-212.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:26:00 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-56.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:26:30 redblue [i=star@ppp166.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:26:51 -!- lichtblau [n=user@pD95434EE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:28:38 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:28:38 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-183-99-177.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:51 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 23:30:30 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@68.178.103.210] has joined #lisp 23:31:02 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:33:02 minion: memo for tcr: I never knew about C-M-. but thanks to you asking about it earlier, I looked it up and have used it five times already :) 23:33:02 Remembered. I'll tell tcr when he/she/it next speaks. 23:34:52 demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-193-054.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:11 ziga` [n=ziga`@BSN-143-132-102.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:50 -!- ziga` [n=ziga`@BSN-143-132-102.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:41:17 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:43:01 Adlai: what's the difference between C-M-. and M-.? 23:43:33 regular expressions 23:44:05 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@118.210.22.72] has joined #lisp 23:44:12 quidnunc: no, you're thinking C-M-% and M-% 23:44:40 gonzojive: when you M-. on something that has multiple definitions (let's say a function and a compiler macro, which is a common case when xrefing builtins) 23:44:55 No, sorry I was thinking of find-tag and find-tag-regexp 23:45:09 then C-M-. will jump to the next definition 23:45:14 adlai and thanks to mentioning that i found C-M-x 23:45:43 i will be most certainly using that from now on 23:46:02 so let's say you do M-. on something and choose the first definition, you can then do C-M-. to skip directly to the next one, rather than using M-, then M-. and picking the second one. 23:47:16 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-183-99-177.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:49:25 -!- gdoteof [n=gdot@sbhsa32.ma.burl.vt.sover.net] has left #lisp 23:52:59 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@68.178.103.210] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:53:03 (herep pkhuong) 23:53:04 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:50 Adlai: yes? 23:54:15 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483DA16.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:56:03 Earlier tmh asked about minor page faults, and you said it has to do with a "write barrier" -- what do you mean by that? 23:56:42 *Adlai* is mainly just curious, and the wikipedia article on page faults was informative but didn't explain how this pertains to CL and write barriers, which I assume are a GC issue 23:57:06 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:58:14 Adlai: , search for write barrier. CMUCL's and SBCL's generational garbage collector exploit the MMU to get that information. Many other systems instead instrument the mutator (e.g. factor). 23:58:40 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@118.210.25.119] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]