00:00:10 -!- umopepisdn` is now known as pragma_ 00:03:00 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-213-82.taconic.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:03:12 billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-213-82.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:44 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:12:21 -!- Aisling [i=ash@blk-89-251-92.eastlink.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 00:12:25 Aisling [i=ash@blk-89-251-92.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 00:13:30 does anybody here have access to lispworks 5.1 ? 00:13:55 personal edition 00:13:56 -!- Aisling [i=ash@blk-89-251-92.eastlink.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 00:14:44 plz eval (find-symbol "SET-DYNAMIC-LISP-ARRAY-POINTER" :fli) 00:15:35 => FLI::SET-DYNAMIC-LISP-ARRAY-POINTER (and it's 5.1.1 to be precise) 00:15:46 good enough 00:15:52 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@129.21.41.18] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:15:56 iv_s_ [n=iv_s@92.124.53.243] has joined #lisp 00:16:08 rrice1 [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:18 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:16:20 elliotstern [n=chatzill@129.21.41.18] has joined #lisp 00:16:27 stassats: does describe show how many arguments it takes ? 00:17:03 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:17:06 -!- rrice1 is now known as rrice 00:17:52 (function-lambda-list 'fli::set-dynamic-lisp-array-pointer) => (FLI::POINTER FLI::LISP-ARRAY FLI::START) 00:17:56 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@85.247.85.12] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:18:06 (describe doesn't show) 00:18:26 ok. many thanks 00:18:39 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 00:22:58 mnl_ [n=mnl@217.230.255.56] has joined #lisp 00:24:14 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:24:27 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@93-82-12-234.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:26:10 -!- seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:27:58 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.196.192] has quit [Client Quit] 00:28:15 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 00:28:56 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 00:31:53 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:33:13 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:33:41 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 00:34:42 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:37:00 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [] 00:39:51 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:40:26 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-196-67.net.novis.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:41:10 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-171-249.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:41:44 spicey [n=e@87.99.83.235] has joined #lisp 00:43:00 quix [n=quix@c-24-60-190-249.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:41 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:40 using sbcl on archlinux , any bad command (e.g. abcd) exits the sbcl shell with "unhandled condition in --disable-debugger mode, quitting" instead of dropping to debugger. Does this mean that the OS package is missing debugger, or could it be just temporarily disabled and can be reenabled? 00:45:30 it can mean both 00:45:33 spicey: is it normally executed sbcl or from some app? 00:45:44 just normal sbcl in the terminal 00:45:51 <_3b> is arch still shipping broken sbcl? 00:45:55 is sbcl a shell script? what's in your /etc/sbclrc and ~/.sbclrc ? 00:46:15 _3b: afaik not, but I haven't upgraded recently 00:46:36 <_3b> p_l: if you run it from shell, does it have debugger disabled? 00:47:01 No sbclrc startup files at all, running bare /usr/bin/sbcl 00:47:19 _3b: no, it has full debugger etc. 00:47:46 spicey: and the last try: run (sb-ext:enable-debugger) 00:47:48 <_3b> spicey: you can reenable it, run (sb-ext:enable-debugger) from inside sbcl 00:48:12 yep, that works 00:48:16 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 00:48:39 <_3b> spicey: if that is what they currently release, be sure to file a bug on it :p 00:48:39 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:48:47 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 00:49:24 <_3b> (if i remember right, they use --script to dump a core with some modified paths, and --script disables debugger, so dumped core has no debugger either) 00:49:57 that's right, according to http://repos.archlinux.org/wsvn/packages/sbcl/repos/extra-x86_64/PKGBUILD 00:50:01 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 00:50:10 -!- kupad [n=kupad@dsl254-079-179.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:50:19 -!- pragma_ is now known as K1evre 00:51:33 -!- K1evre is now known as _pragma 00:51:37 -!- _pragma is now known as pragma_ 00:58:36 interestingly, my packaged sbcl has debugger enabled 00:58:46 _3b: Hey! Many thanks. I just got it. Nice. 01:01:46 man page on --script doesn't inlcude --disable-debugger 01:02:36 maybe it's just for x86_64? anyway, i filed the bug 01:03:32 the same with x86 01:03:42 i.e. the same pkgbuild 01:04:41 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:21 doh, description of --script in man page is confusing 01:05:30 <_3b> http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Toplevel-Options.html#Toplevel-Options says it disables it 01:06:02 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-213-82.taconic.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:06:22 well, in man sbcl it cleary states that --script is equivalent to --disable-ldb among other things 01:07:05 <_3b> ah, seesm to be 2 --script options 01:07:12 --disable-ldb is different 01:07:48 <``Erik> equivalent, or implies? 01:08:15 implies obviously 01:09:15 <_3b> yeah, that is confusing 01:11:09 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-vsptwlivrcnwsact] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:11:17 thom_ [n=thom@173.51.164.80] has joined #lisp 01:11:25 <_3b> ah, i see, the runtime --script calls the toplevel --script, which disables the debugger 01:11:29 hello channel 01:11:35 does saved core not load userinit? 01:12:01 (from that pkgbuild) 01:13:14 i guess the fix would be sbcl --core core --load foo.lisp 01:13:39 or errors during dumping would confuse lay arch linux users? 01:13:49 I'm trying to write a macro to turn (lambda (x) (a x) (b) (c)) into (lambda (x) (c (b (a x)))) but all my attempts are really really ugly. wat is the standard idiomatic way to accomplish this? 01:14:08 coliv [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:29 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:14:46 <_3b> stassats: well the reason i knew about that is because it was breaking when people tried to install stumpwm, and hit the 'no gpg' restart in asdf-install 01:15:41 TR2N [i=email@89.180.138.59] has joined #lisp 01:15:49 i meant errors during building pkgbuild itself 01:16:07 <_3b> ah, seems like a better solution for that is just not having errors there :) 01:16:19 <_3b> since either way it probably won't have a useful core 01:16:32 <_3b> though i guess it could just reenable it before s-l-a-d 01:16:50 but it's impure (in sbcl tests sense) 01:18:22 is paredit the most commonly used emacs mode for lisp? 01:18:27 so only slad can potentially break 01:18:42 through interaction with fs, for example 01:18:47 quix: Lisp-mode if I had to guess. 01:20:13 <_3b> quix: also, slime 01:20:30 what about passing :save-runtime-options t to slad? 01:20:50 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@pool-72-66-64-165.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:01 i meant nil, but it's nil by default 01:21:23 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has left #lisp 01:21:31 -!- chessguy_work is now known as chessguy 01:21:53 well slime isn't a mode, is it? I use paredit with slime. 01:22:08 paredit is a minor mode 01:22:09 <_3b> slime is a few modes 01:22:41 <_3b> it also builds on various modes that ship with emacs, like lisp-mode 01:23:50 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@12.130.118.20] has joined #lisp 01:25:33 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 01:25:49 is there any difference between quoting something with apostrophe (') and backtick (`)? in my simple learning uses i can't see the difference, both work the same, but different vim highlighting suggests that there could be something 01:26:05 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-73-155.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:25 no difference if you don't use , inside a list or a vector 01:26:31 clhs ` 01:26:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 01:26:34 spicey: backquote lets you unquote things 01:26:35 <_3b> spicey `(,(+ 1 2)) vs '(,(+ 1 2)) vs '((+ 1 2)) 01:27:19 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:29:06 thank you 01:29:12 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@12.130.118.20] has quit [] 01:29:49 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-227.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:30:00 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@12.130.118.20] has joined #lisp 01:30:47 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:30:47 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:31:26 hmm, as far as i see, userinit would be loaded in a dumped core, but debugger will just remain disabled 01:31:34 is this a desired behaviour? 01:32:33 but it's hard to tell whether it was disabled by user or by --script 01:34:56 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@12.130.118.20] has quit [Client Quit] 01:37:03 Summermute [n=scott@c-69-143-215-34.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:09 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:40:00 -!- ignotus [n=ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 01:40:14 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:41:02 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:10 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:42:25 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 01:43:11 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@12.130.118.20] has joined #lisp 01:45:55 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-72-66-64-165.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:46:14 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.138.59] has left #lisp 01:48:19 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:48:27 Summermute66 [n=scott@c-69-143-215-34.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:35 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:36 <_3b> how hard would it be to make SBCL interpret macrolets instead of compiling them? 01:53:59 (setf sb-ext:*evaluator-mode* :interpret) 01:54:54 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:55:21 <_3b> stassats: even with the compile-in-lexenv in macrolet-definitionize-fun ? 01:56:38 LiamH: ping 01:57:02 *_3b* should probably just fix the code in question instead of poking at sbcl 01:57:32 fe[nl]ix: hi 01:58:31 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:58:45 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:10 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:01:28 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:02:58 LiamH: I made a few improvements to static-vectors and added a cffi type translator 02:03:26 OK 02:03:36 Committed to that git repo? 02:03:54 yes 02:06:14 -!- quix [n=quix@c-24-60-190-249.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:06:22 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-69-143-215-34.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:07:37 Thanks. I'll take a look at it soon. 02:08:16 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:08:21 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:08:48 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 02:09:21 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@129.21.41.18] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:14:10 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:21:11 -!- Summermute66 [n=scott@c-69-143-215-34.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:21:14 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:23:18 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 02:24:57 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has quit [] 02:26:53 saikat_ [n=saikat@173-13-150-22-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:01 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 02:30:20 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:31:17 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@12.130.118.20] has quit [] 02:35:14 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:35:26 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 02:36:07 Mttman15 [n=matt@97-121-25-149.bois.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:35 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust936.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:37:20 i'm working on a report for school and am having trouble finding what kinds of primitive data types lisp supports, could anyone clarify this for me? 02:37:31 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 02:37:40 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@12.130.118.20] has joined #lisp 02:38:13 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:38:54 Mttman15: cars, cdrs, and frobs 02:40:21 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 02:41:32 Mttman15: are you asking about LISP or Common Lisp? 02:41:59 Adlai: LISP 02:42:20 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:42:35 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:42:43 <_3b> Mttman15: so as in the original papers, LISP 1.5 or some other old variant? 02:43:33 _3b: however you would find it today 02:43:43 <_3b> so Common lisp then? 02:43:53 <_3b> unless you actually mean scheme 02:44:48 _3b: lets go with common lisp, i don't mean scheme 02:44:57 <_3b> how do you define 'primitive data type'? 02:45:59 built in data types which store the information without using pointers 02:46:24 <_3b> lisp doesn't have a concept of 'pointer' 02:47:04 so everything would be primitive by that definition, correct? 02:47:26 <_3b> or nothing, yes 02:47:58 how does common lisp store data then if it doesn't use pointers? 02:48:12 <_3b> however it wants to 02:48:31 you mean how the implementor designed it to? 02:48:50 <_3b> you could argue that lisp uses pointers for everything, it just doesn't expose them tothe programmer as for example C does 02:49:02 <_3b> right, pointers are an implementation detail 02:50:45 if i were to create a program where i defined a variable to store the number 5, would the variable be a pointer to the data in another part of memory or would it be stored at the location of the variable? 02:51:05 Mttman15: undefined. 02:51:06 <_3b> probably 02:51:15 Mttman15: an example of a CL implementation that doesn't use pointers is ABCL, which runs on the jvm, and uses java objects. 02:51:24 <_3b> one or both or neither of those, possibly within the same code at different times 02:51:40 dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f7070c7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:10 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kalfllesqdtnwdsk] has joined #lisp 02:52:28 so basically the reason I can't find an answer to this question is because it's not defined in the Common Lisp spec 02:52:48 clhs simple-vector 02:52:49 <_3b> more that your question isn't specified well enough to answer easily fo CL 02:52:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_smp_ve.htm 02:52:54 <_3b> *for 02:53:06 Mttman15: looks to me like there are datatypes defined in the spec 02:53:25 <_3b> for example i'd call a cons a primitive data type in lisp, but it is unlikely to be by your definition 02:53:45 what exactly is a cons? 02:53:53 <_3b> a pair of values 02:53:58 Adlai: java uses pointers :) 02:54:02 Mttman15: you can't find an answer because the question is meaningless in common lisp. 02:54:28 why is it meaningless? 02:54:29 slava: java must provide the semblance of references. 02:54:58 Mttman15: because common lisp doesn't have pointers. 02:55:21 slava: I seem to remember somebody mentioning that ABCL uses objects for all lisp objects, although I'm pretty clueless about the jvm. 02:55:25 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:55:33 Why don't you try and find the density of aether? 02:55:44 pkhuong: because everything is treated like a list in lisp? 02:55:51 Mttman15: absolutely not. 02:56:01 Mttman15: you're not listening. 02:56:08 CL doesn't have pointers. That's all there is to it. 02:56:09 Mttman15: no, there are arrays, functions, objects, etc in CL 02:56:21 your question is inapplicable. 02:57:10 Mttman15: perhaps redefine "primtive data type" as "datatype defined specificaly in the spec?" 02:57:38 that's about as close as I can imagine getting. 02:57:45 heres the exact question my teacher wants me to answer "see if you can find out what primitive types it supports. What structured data types does it have? How does it support user-defined types?" 02:57:49 <_3b> Mttman15: lisp has conses, arrays, specialized arrays, numbers (including rations, multiple sizes of floats, complex numbers, arbitrary precisions ints and ratios), structs, classes, functions, symbols, characters, hash tables, etc... 02:58:41 clhs deftype 02:58:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_deftp.htm 02:58:48 clhs defclass 02:58:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm 02:58:51 Mttman15: in your place, I'd either discuss it with the teacher or turn in an essay describing why the concept doesn't apply and going over the standard-defined datatypes and their attributes. 02:59:25 preferably the former, of course. 03:00:02 ok thanks, i think i understand it a little better, maybe 03:00:05 Mttman15: by "structured" data types, I think you're looking for everything that can store other data in it, like conses, hashtables, instances, etc 03:00:36 however, just because they're "structured" doesn't mean that they're not primitive to lisp. 03:00:45 perhaps define 'primitive' as 'defined in the spec and incapable of storing values of other types?' 03:00:48 Adlai: no, the prof probably means structured as in defstruct or defclass. 03:01:07 pkhuong: a tree sounds like a structured datatype to me. 03:01:15 <_3b> if you ignore the 'pointer' bit, i'd probably call characters, ints,floats 'primitive', conses, arrays, structs,classes as 'structured', ratios,complex, etc somewhere in between 03:01:17 Ralith: ok. 03:01:29 pkhuong: oh, you mean user-extensible datatypes 03:02:09 so from what i've seen so far, lisp does support user defined classes or some semblance of that? 03:02:32 <_3b> Mttman15: many semblances of that, defclass and defstruct in particular 03:02:36 Mttman15: much more than a semblance. CLOS is a very powerful object system. 03:02:47 *_3b* wonders how the prof would epxect a closure to be classified 03:03:17 well, it's not structured and it's not user-defined 03:03:24 lisp has a "meta-object system" also 03:03:33 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735218.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:03:49 <_3b> i guess i'd count a closure as 'structured' and a normal function as 'primitive' from the user point of view 03:09:11 thanks everyone for helping me out (not sarcasm). 03:09:45 -!- Mttman15 [n=matt@97-121-25-149.bois.qwest.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:14:17 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-73-155.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:15:04 wchogg [n=wchogg@71-34-102-122.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:55 *lnostdal* is reminded of school .. *sigh* :/ 03:16:40 ..reverse grepping and filling in whatever lead to :) 03:16:49 ..no time to learn 03:20:43 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:00 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:27:01 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has joined #lisp 03:28:16 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:28:18 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:28:31 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 03:31:44 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:33:52 kupad [n=kupad@216.254.79.179] has joined #lisp 03:35:23 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 03:38:34 <_3b> can i write a set of macros, say foo, with-foo-a, with-foo-b so that (foo) expands to different things depending on which of the with-foo-* it is in the body of? 03:38:56 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:38:57 _3b: sure. macrolet. 03:39:04 -!- marioxcc [n=user@201.132.50.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:39:09 <_3b> pkhuong: ok, can i make sbcl compile macrolet faster? :p 03:39:38 <_3b> currently i have foo defined in a macrolet inside with-foo-*, but sbcl compiles each macrolet i think 3-5 times if i read right 03:40:07 <_3b> since each with-foo has a few dozen macrolets, and i call each with-foo a few hundred times in the project, it takes a while to compile 03:40:08 You can try and make the macrolet call out to a function, or use symbol-macrolet to store a function in the environment. 03:40:13 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:56 <_3b> *2-3 times i mean ( i think, i was getting confused reading profiles) 03:41:07 (defmacro foo (... &environment env) (let ((expander (macroexpand-1 '%foo-expander%))) (if (eq expander '%foo-expander%) (error) (funcall expander ...)))) 03:41:48 (defmacro with-foo-bar (...) `(symbol-macrolet ((%foo-expander% ,#'...)) ...)) 03:43:06 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@88.73.197.21] has joined #lisp 03:44:35 <_3b> hmm, if i understand it right, that might let me do some other stuff i wanted to add as well 03:45:19 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:45:42 <_3b> thuogh not sure if i'd need it in that setup or not 03:47:34 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:49:55 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@88.73.233.72] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:52:38 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:54:35 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@173-13-150-22-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [] 03:57:30 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:01:45 <_3b> actually, couldn't i just use that symbol-macrolet trick to store a flag in the env, and use that to select the expansion directly? 04:02:03 _3b: sure. 04:03:07 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:03:19 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:05:39 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:06:08 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:06:41 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:07:19 htk__ [n=htk___@188.3.227.210] has joined #lisp 04:09:14 troussan` [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:35 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:11:36 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-7-185.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:56 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:14:01 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:14:07 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 04:14:44 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:15:06 Evening. 04:15:06 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:15:39 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:15:41 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-217-184.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:04 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:17:29 -!- ropert [n=user@CPE00222d12ee72-CM00222d12ee6e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:19:40 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:21:08 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:21:23 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:21:36 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 04:21:41 -!- ``Erik [i=Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:22:00 I am getting "program stack overflow" from clisp (from gnu). Does someone knows how to deal with that? I don't think it's necessary a bug in the code because everything runs fine when I try with 100 and 1000 inputs. And I try with 10000, then the error occurs. 04:22:17 ``Erik [i=Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:45 <_3b> didi: is this still the recursive code? 04:22:53 _3b: Yes. 04:23:14 <_3b> didi: you don't have an infinite amount of stack, so you can't recurse forever (in common lisp) 04:24:31 _3b: Hum. But is it possible to enlarge this limit? I tried "ulimit" and it responds "unlimited". I also tried passing -m100M and the error is still present. 04:26:06 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtuqjFf7-N4 04:26:17 oops, wrong window 04:28:03 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 04:28:46 didi, if you really really want to do this recursively, without running out of stack, then borrow from http://github.com/ayrnieu/disclojure/blob/master/syntax.lisp 04:28:51 <_3b> didi: -m seems to be the correct option to try, so if that doesn't help, i don't know... you might also try compiling your function 04:29:54 CLOOP adds a tail-recursive RECUR ; just pick it apart from the syntax sugar. 04:30:34 <_3b> better to just use iteration though, or a lisp dialect (or CL implementation) with tail call elimination 04:32:26 Well, I was not a big fan of recursion but it's a pity. Maybe scheme is more suitable for recursion? 04:33:23 didi, you might need to add some declarations and/or change your code (the call that recurs must be the "tail" or end of a code-"block") so that it does TCO; no limit at all 04:33:25 N=1000 seems odd for a stack overflow 04:33:28 Schemes all guarantee TCO. Some CL implementations perform TCO given some optimization settings. But here I've shown you how you can have a tail-recursive loop like this in normal CL. 04:33:34 if your functions can be expressed tail-recursively then scheme or most CL implementations could compile them to use iteration internally 04:33:37 Ralith: 1000 is ok. 10000, not. 04:33:47 (locally (declare (optimize (space 1) (speed 0))) (labels ((test () (test))) (test))) in sbcl goes on forever .. but setting it to (space 0) and it'll run out of stack 04:34:02 didi - if you want the unmacro'd way of implementing recursive algorithms in CL, it is with DO 04:34:28 didi - which looks very weird at first, but which naturally expresses recursive algorithms that long use of Scheme or Erlang can infect you with. 04:36:47 i'm not sure when sbcl actually does TCO and not .. but it seems either speed or space must be at least 1 (?) 04:37:05 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-7-185.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:37:26 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:37:31 debug seems to affect things also 04:38:16 haole [n=ivan@187.23.88.240] has joined #lisp 04:38:40 -!- troussan` [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:38:43 clhs do 04:38:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_do.htm 04:38:48 hello there... is common lisp functional? 04:39:01 i can't find the info anywhere... i know scheme is (kind of) 04:39:19 it's multiparadign including functional, but no where purely functional 04:39:19 <_3b> haole: not exclusively 04:39:27 haole, see wikipedia .. it is multi-paradigm and programmable .. it includes some support for functional programming, yes 04:39:50 s/paradign/paradigm/ 04:39:51 but does it support tail-call optimizations? 04:39:57 it is what i need 04:40:10 several implementations do but it's not required by the standard 04:40:30 does anybody knows if clisp implements tail-call optimization? 04:40:39 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442868.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 04:40:46 haole - you can have local tail-recursion with a macro, as demonstrated by http://github.com/ayrnieu/disclojure/blob/master/syntax.lisp ; some CL implementations perform TCO in some conditions. Otherwise: no. 04:41:31 The schrodinger variable is an instant win! 04:41:35 ayrnieu: i see... i'm just looking for a great language for prototyping and thought of clisp... and i think "infinite recursion" is a must have for prototyping 04:42:45 haole, (funcall (compile nil (lambda () (locally (declare (optimize (space 2) (speed 3) (debug 0))) (labels ((test () (test))) (test)))))) ;; runs forever in clisp here 04:42:58 -!- elurin [n=user@85.106.145.156] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:43:02 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:43:10 clisp is not a language 04:43:17 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/d62865297bde3c41 <-- CL Implementations and Tail-Call Elimination 04:43:19 haole: clisp's interpreter doesn't do tail recursion. Other implementations will do TCO by default. 04:43:47 lnostdal: i'm sorry, i abbreviated common lisp with clisp... bad idea :D 04:44:38 pkhuong: ok, thanks... i'm doing either common lisp or haskell... i believe that, whichever i choose, i will be in good hands :) 04:44:41 thanks for the info 04:48:12 looks like both sbcl and clisp (when code is compiled!) does tco by default, yeah .. no decls. needed 04:53:20 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 04:55:31 demmel [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-203-107.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:20 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 04:56:47 Just to note, sbcl was able to handle 10000 inputs. 04:58:31 But, to be fair, the output does not seem right. Even for 10 inputs. 04:59:34 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:59:34 <_3b> didi: based on what you had before, you may need to reverse the list at the end 05:00:34 <_3b> (which is a normal way to do things when building a list, since adding to the start of a list is easier than the obvious way of adding to the end) 05:05:45 Hum. Maybe it's the input IO. 05:07:19 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:07:29 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:12:37 Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:38 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:14:41 kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 05:14:41 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:16:35 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-108-253.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 05:18:41 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:23:20 acieroid` [n=acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 05:27:15 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp043.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:28:45 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:47 -!- haole [n=ivan@187.23.88.240] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:29:08 -!- ``Erik [i=Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:29:37 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 05:34:29 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:35:26 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 05:36:32 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-4-231.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:36:36 -!- acieroid [n=acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:36:51 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 05:37:43 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-122-93.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:39:05 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:39:45 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 05:41:34 KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-6-89.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:10 Strav [n=user@25-79.162.dsl.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 05:46:07 He. I'm looking for a symbolic algebra manipulation library (something like maxima without having to resort to the whole thing), tried gsll to realize it's mostly for numeric computation... any suggestions? 05:46:12 -!- kupad [n=kupad@216.254.79.179] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:47:47 Strav: have you looked at: http://www.cliki.net/Mathematics 05:51:14 yep. Just looking for a package that can do symbolic differentiation and integration (there's one there called integrate but it states: "limited scope", so I looked elsewhere for the meantime) 05:52:35 (not that I'm doing anything complex, it's just that I don't wish to be fighting agains't those limitations if I ever encounter them) 05:58:40 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@12.130.118.20] has quit [] 06:00:00 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:01:48 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:04:02 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:04:05 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 06:07:37 -!- kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:07:48 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 06:08:09 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@71-34-102-122.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:09:30 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:14:22 redblue [i=star@ppp033.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 06:15:20 -!- Strav [n=user@25-79.162.dsl.aei.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:16:02 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229145187.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:18:47 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:19:17 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:27:44 serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d067ed8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:27:51 good morning 06:29:34 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:29:49 Demosthenes [n=demo@67.111.42.162.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:19 hello 06:32:13 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:32:47 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 06:35:03 good morning, mrSpec 06:45:04 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-67-34.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:46:40 dys`` [n=andreas@krlh-5f707906.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:08 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:50:11 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 06:51:41 dys``` [n=andreas@krlh-5f72ef57.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:54:15 good morning 06:54:56 hello mvilleneuve 06:55:09 [and good morning everyone] 06:56:01 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 06:56:26 hey, beach. 06:56:40 dys```` [n=andreas@krlh-5f7342a2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:31 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 06:58:55 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:00:51 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:00:52 -!- dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f7070c7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:01:08 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 07:02:36 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-78-067.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 07:02:43 <_3b> pkhuong: thanks, that seems to have worked, compiles about 3x faster now on sbcl and ccl :) 07:04:03 Joreji [n=thomas@43-004.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:04:27 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@43-004.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Client Quit] 07:06:21 -!- dys`` [n=andreas@krlh-5f707906.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:07:43 -!- dys``` [n=andreas@krlh-5f72ef57.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:15:17 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:16:50 levy [n=levy@89.223.213.96] has joined #lisp 07:18:28 majhool [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 07:19:53 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:31:45 -!- asksol [n=ask@213.236.208.22] has quit [] 07:32:18 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:32:30 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:32:32 morphling [n=stefan@89.15.140.130] has joined #lisp 07:34:03 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:34:12 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2C45B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:34:55 how do you start slime with a different lisp than the default? i have ABCL listed in the alternative-lisp-implementations but I don't know how to start up with it... 07:36:31 C-u M-x slime? 07:36:33 <_3b> M-- M-x slime ? 07:37:49 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:39:00 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 07:44:24 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 07:45:06 levy_ [n=levy@89.223.235.113] has joined #lisp 07:45:39 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-8-21.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:46:01 -!- smackarang [n=user@91.190.137.166] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:48:17 aigon [n=ojof@92.82.90.22] has joined #lisp 07:48:25 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-55-199.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:49:38 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-20-184.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:51:07 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 07:52:50 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-78-067.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:53:12 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.213.96] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:53:51 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:54:06 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 07:54:56 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-78-067.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 07:55:25 mnl__ [n=mnl@pD9E6E9A7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:14 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:00:11 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:01:34 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-53-69.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:02:11 -!- aigon [n=ojof@92.82.90.22] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:03:05 -!- mnl_ [n=mnl@217.230.255.56] has quit [Read error: 128 (Network is unreachable)] 08:03:18 mnl_ [n=mnl@pD9E6E9A7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:31 -!- Soulman [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:13:07 -!- mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6FF38.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:17:17 -!- majhool [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["leaving"] 08:17:57 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:18:30 varjag [n=eugene@62.97.226.122] has joined #lisp 08:18:39 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 08:21:33 -!- mnl_ [n=mnl@pD9E6E9A7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:23:40 Guthur pasted "Which seems more useable" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89031 08:24:38 <_3b> abstract the goal, as opposed to the implementation 08:25:28 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:25:37 good morning 08:26:02 hi attila_lendvai, is dwim.hu down? 08:26:47 *_3b* can't tell what the code is trying to do though, so can't really help there 08:28:06 _3b i think you're right though its trying to unnecessarily hide the implementation for little gain 08:28:27 <_3b> it isn't even doing that much, if you put 'hash' in the function name :) 08:29:08 kami-: yes, the network is cut off 08:30:00 -!- l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 08:30:34 <_3b> Guthur: maybe you want button to be a class, and process-events to be a generic function? 08:31:43 attila_lendvai: yesterday, levy wrote that I have to pull "hu.dwim.common". Did he mean hu.dwim.common-lisp or is there a new package hu.dwim.common? 08:32:18 <_3b> Guthur: note that you can hide the current implementation behind that interface 08:34:11 kami-: i hope he didn't create a new darcs repo for another 3 files... but he has this tendency... :) 08:34:19 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:35:36 _3b ya it's an option 08:35:38 attila_lendvai: then, I'm stuck again with an error in syntax-sugar. 08:36:02 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-69-181-124-97.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:36:19 kami-: the server is promised to be back real soon now 08:36:21 _3b: thanks 08:37:16 attila_lendvai: I pulled everything late, yesterday. So, the server won't solve my problem, I guess. 08:38:03 kami-: generally, what's pushed, should work if you are fully pulled. it's rare that it doesn't... 08:38:42 good morning 08:38:48 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:38:56 attila_lendvai: levy even pulled all 3rd party libs and built anew. And had no problems. 08:39:10 attila_lendvai: the error is this one: http://paste.lisp.org/display/89004#2 08:39:50 kami-: package problem, metabang-bind:bind is not present in there... 08:39:56 kami-, what was the pastebin's url you posted yesterday? 08:40:19 attila_lendvai: maybe I have some directory in my ~/workspace which is being picked up. Can you annotate that paste with the result of ls in your ~/workspace ? 08:40:37 hi levy_ http://paste.lisp.org/display/89004#2 08:40:56 anyone know of a library to generate graphics to represent graphs with named edges and nodes? 08:41:02 kami-: that won't help you... just make sure you don't have cl-syntax-sugar there next to hu.dwim.syntax-sugar, although that should be ok, too 08:41:04 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:41:19 gonzojive: graphviz? 08:42:14 jdz: perfect 08:42:18 thanks 08:42:44 attila_lendvai: where did you see metabang-bind:bind? Does syntax-sugar shadow bind? 08:42:54 l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 08:44:26 kami-: defmacro define-syntax... uses bind 08:45:59 attila_lendvai: ah, ok. 08:46:23 kami-: what's the :use list of the defpackage :hu.dwim.syntax-sugar in your repo? 08:47:13 kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 08:47:13 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:47:42 attila_lendvai : (:use :hu.dwim.common-lisp) 08:47:42 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:48:09 attila_lendvai: and in .asd, :depends only on hu.dwim.common-lisp 08:48:48 h3r3tic [n=heretic@86.3.27.232] has joined #lisp 08:48:58 kami-: that's the problem. it should be :hu.dwim.common since yesterday's changes (as far as i follow what happened). maybe levy forgot to push syntax-sugar, or you didn't pull the require patch 08:49:23 ...and that freaking server is still unavailable... 08:50:36 attila_lendvai: thank you. I'll wait until it's available. 08:51:22 attila_lendvai, levy: have you ever thought about continuous integration? Would it be possible to check at least the build and run the tests of each package automatically? 08:53:23 hmm, I did push it yesterday 08:53:38 kami-, yes, we are planning to do so 08:54:13 dwim.hu will start a fresh sbcl with each dwim system and run its test suite, put the result in the db and make it available through the web site 08:54:37 it will also collect all conditions received during the fresh build and make that available too 08:57:09 levy_: that sounds great. Well. I'll wait for the server, then. 08:58:13 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 08:58:13 kami-, but it still does not solve the issue of incremental updates/pulls 08:58:58 I don't yet know how to make that easier without limiting ourselves with the possible changes 08:59:03 ``Erik [i=Here@69.140.109.104] has joined #lisp 08:59:53 a clean checkout as described by the install guide at dwim.hu should be uptodate, and should work all the time 09:00:39 but that's not incremental, repos might pop up, might disappear, we might need to branch non dwim repos, etc. 09:02:29 levy_: if you keep the list of the HEAD repos in the dwim.hu docs up to date, one could make a fresh checkout every time, automatically and test 09:03:25 kami-, at least that's the intention, dwim.hu is the documentation 09:03:47 -!- cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.233] has left #lisp 09:04:10 levy_: and if the original repo is temporarily switched to a patched dwim.hu repo, then the docs are updated and the next automated build checks out from the new location. 09:05:13 kami-, yes, actually the install guide looks at the live repos to see from where are they coming from and displays the urls and checkout info based on that 09:05:35 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:05:37 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:05:48 so if I make a branch and pull that into live the docs are updated automagically 09:06:28 kami-, do you use head or live? 09:06:32 levy_: head :) 09:07:06 levy_: how often do you update live? 09:07:57 well, we don't have a well defined practice yet 09:08:36 but using live is certainly results in a more peaceful user experience 09:08:53 it's usually updated at least once a week 09:08:56 yes, head might not even compile 09:08:59 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:14:28 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.160.123] has joined #lisp 09:15:37 attila_lendvai: OK. I'll switch and you promise to push /important/ changes quickly :) 09:15:55 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:16:54 kami-: you can always darcs pull --no-set-default url-to-head if you need a fix quickly 09:17:24 *kami-* checks the darcs man page 09:17:26 with the bash darcs completion, it's even comfortable, it keeps track of and completes repo urls 09:18:01 kami-: dwim.hu is up 09:20:39 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:21:56 are there any redundant special forms? 09:22:14 H4ns [n=Hans@87.187.174.241] has joined #lisp 09:22:14 drafael [n=tapio@118.90.129.181] has joined #lisp 09:22:14 -!- drafael [n=tapio@118.90.129.181] has quit [Client Quit] 09:25:19 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 09:26:31 Adlai`: yo! 09:27:21 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-69-181-124-97.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:31:27 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:15 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:35:53 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:36:43 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:40:14 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 09:40:15 -!- kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 09:41:49 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-129-203.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:42:13 holly_ [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:46:16 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:50:59 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:51:08 <_3b> gonzojive: most of them 09:55:27 splittist [n=David@85.4.220.156] has joined #lisp 09:57:15 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-122-93.netcologne.de] has quit [No route to host] 09:58:09 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:58:54 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 10:03:35 morning 10:03:48 is it possible to iterate over just the values of a hash table, all ways seem to involve the key as well 10:04:34 <_3b> loop lets you ignore the key pretty easily 10:04:34 Guthur: loop 10:04:40 (maphash (lambda (key value) (declare (ignore key)) ...) hashtable) 10:05:02 Guthur: (loop for i being the hash-values of hash do (print i)), or something like this.. 10:05:48 cheers, i should have tested that mishoo, its just the spec only specifies hash-keys there 10:06:07 Guthur: alexandria comes with maphash-values 10:06:34 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:06:39 Guthur: uhm, it does specify hash-values 10:06:51 <_3b> spec lists both, could be more readable though 10:06:59 stassats only for the using 10:07:10 *_3b* wants lisppaste style paren/brace/etc highlighting in clhs 10:07:16 didn't know they were interchangeable 10:07:46 stassats my apology i see now 10:07:52 Guthur: no, it does both, see | 10:09:21 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:10:30 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 10:11:17 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:49 silenius [n=jl@192.166.201.90] has joined #lisp 10:14:30 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 10:15:13 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:20:11 -!- borism [n=boris@195.50.199.134] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:20:39 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:21:07 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:21:48 -!- htk__ [n=htk___@188.3.227.210] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:21:56 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:24:54 borism [n=boris@195.50.199.134] has joined #lisp 10:28:33 lispm [n=joswig@e177122055.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:29:36 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177122055.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 10:29:50 lispm [n=joswig@e177122055.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:30:15 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:30:35 is there an equivalent of a nil function, or is an empty lambda the best option? 10:31:06 <_3b> (constantly nil) ? 10:31:12 <_3b> (values) ? 10:32:01 <_3b> #'identity ? 10:32:43 greyhame [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:33:06 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:33:37 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 10:33:44 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-235.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 10:33:52 seeing as a 'nil' function could be used in tons of places, it should ignore all parameters 10:34:05 I guess (defun my-nil-func (&rest blah) nil) would do it? 10:34:23 (constantly nil) would do it 10:34:34 <_3b> well, first you need to define 'nil function' 10:34:46 ah 10:35:02 stassats: I didn't know you were naming a function there. That sounds like it fits his bill 10:35:20 sorry guys i was waiting for the flash 10:36:15 constantly nil might do 10:36:26 <_3b> what are you trying to do? 10:37:52 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 10:38:16 passing a function to be invoked after some event 10:38:45 but i wasn't sure if i would always wanted to have a function passed 10:39:00 so i made it a &key argument 10:39:09 with a nil default 10:39:32 *_3b* would probably leave the default nil and test it before funcalling 10:40:27 _3b that maybe a nicer approach actually, cheers 10:41:14 <_3b> testing for nil has the advantage of letting the user pass NIL as the argument 10:42:41 <_3b> alternately, if you don't care about portability, there is always (defun () nil) :) 10:43:08 -!- greyhame [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 10:43:14 greyhame [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:21 _3b nah i rather all others hehe 10:43:42 _3b: where (defun () nil) works? 10:44:27 <_3b> stassats: works in sbcl if you override package locks 10:44:48 i got to the kernel debugger in ccl :( 10:44:49 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:45:04 <_3b> (defun () nil) (funcall nil) => nil 10:45:14 _3b if i test for a function i can remove the key and just pass nil, i'm liking that because its less likely that it will be nil, cheers again 10:45:16 <_3b> (picking the ignore package lock restart in the middle) 10:45:45 <_3b> Guthur: test for nil, not for function, so you can pass functions by name too 10:46:15 <_3b> stassats: does (defun nil ()) work any better? 10:46:22 _3b thanks, that was just about to be a horrible bug if you hadn't told me 10:46:43 _3b: that's what i tested 10:47:40 <_3b> clisp (2.44 at least) doesn't even argue about it :) 10:48:07 i'll fill a bug-report 10:48:19 <_3b> no bug, it is undefined behavior 10:48:22 (defun () nil) makes sbcl complain about setting the fdefinition of the locked nil 10:48:37 _3b: well, but ending in the low-level debugger isn't the best option 10:48:39 <_3b> right, you aren't supposed to do that 10:48:53 <_3b> (that was to Phoodus) 10:49:27 <_3b> stassats: true, it would be nicer to catch it 10:49:44 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 10:51:11 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:52:36 though, i can (setf (fdefinition nil) (lambda ())) but then it complains (funcall nil): : NIL is not of type (OR SYMBOL FUNCTION) 10:52:48 which is strange, because nil is symbol 10:53:16 <_3b> yeah, that sounds odd 10:53:24 joswig [n=joswig@f054054118.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:53:28 (funcall (fdefinition nil)) works 10:55:10 I don't think you are allowed to define functions for CL symbols - portably. 10:55:59 <_3b> joswig: right, we're just poking at things to see how they break at this point :) 10:59:29 there is also the possibility to check whether a keyword argument has been passed: 10:59:31 (defun foo (&key (bar nil bar-passed-p)) (when bar-passed-p (funcall bar))) 11:00:11 joswig: if you're expecting only functions to be passed to BAR, you don't need to use suppliedp 11:00:24 -!- greyhame [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["leaving"] 11:00:45 greyhame [n=jao@80.24.4.74] has joined #lisp 11:00:50 <_3b> sykopomp: that assumes we aren't being unportable and making nil fbound :p 11:01:23 _3b: all advice should assume you're not violating 11.1.2.1.2 11:01:27 Adlai`` [n=adlai@89-139-23-238.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 11:01:41 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177122055.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:01:54 <_3b> sykopomp: :) 11:02:05 _3b: "consequences are undefined" is pretty serious. 11:02:27 <_3b> sykopomp: yeah, particularly on ccl apparently 11:02:36 sykopomp: it could make the intention a bit clearer in the code 11:03:04 joswig: (when bar (funcall bar)) makes it pretty clear. 11:03:16 but I agree, and I like suppliedp 11:03:18 :) 11:03:58 that makes clear that the function is called when it is not nil, the other thing makes clear that the function is called when it is passed 11:04:34 <_3b> being able to pass NIL to mean don't call anything seems more useful to me 11:04:35 joswig: it makes it clear that if you have something, it's probably a function, so you're gonna call it. 11:05:00 *_3b* always hates having to make an effort not to pass arguments 11:05:23 kami-` [n=user@p5B20FF32.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:23 <_3b> from macros, or wrappers with the same defaults, for example 11:05:40 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 11:06:56 Is having a nil function merely just an optimization to avoid a boolean or nil check? 11:07:06 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:07:27 <_3b> Phoodus: if you mean my (defun nil ...) stuff, that was a joke :) 11:07:35 I mean the original problem 11:09:14 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 11:09:16 <_3b> in that particular case, probably, though i could see cases where it would be harder to add the check 11:10:47 TR2N [i=email@89-180-159-143.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 11:12:14 billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-213-82.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:40 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:12:46 -!- splittist [n=David@85.4.220.156] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 11:18:01 _3b i like the passing nil too, the only reason i used a key word argument was because i didn't fancy passing an empty lambda if i was using that as the nil function 11:18:34 -!- greyhame [n=jao@80.24.4.74] has left #lisp 11:18:58 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:22:02 Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has joined #lisp 11:26:12 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:26:12 -!- levy_ [n=levy@89.223.235.113] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:26:34 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 11:28:13 *Krystof* finishes writing a batch of external-format tests 11:28:14 sheesh 11:28:39 <_3b> hmm, wonder how i got a 'Help! 11 nested errors...' out of require 11:29:46 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@86.3.27.232] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:29:48 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:56 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 11:30:29 Krystof: Your deadline was due on wednesday, you said; so is it available for public consumption? 11:31:21 my deadline was on Monday 11:31:39 however, I was in solid teaching/meetings until Wednesday 11:31:43 I am in fact in a meeting now 11:32:14 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-5de570d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:32:26 does not matter to the actual question :) I'd be interested in reading what you have to say about the matter of portability libraries 11:32:39 -!- demmel [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-203-107.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:32:46 mikezor [n=mikael@c-5de570d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:34:19 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:34:24 CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.42.200] has joined #lisp 11:36:13 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:05 does emacs use 'def' as some sort of indent marker 11:38:54 No it doesn't 11:39:22 but it looks like it does 11:39:26 -!- mnl__ [n=mnl@pD9E6E9A7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:40:47 Seems to be new 11:41:08 they seem to do the same as slime does for CL 11:41:44 stassats: thanks for slime-open-system, I'll blog about it 11:41:48 its a tad annoying, i wanted to use default-something 11:41:53 21.4.1 does respect def too 11:42:04 tcr: no problem, it was indeed trivial 11:42:39 there's another thing which you could do on top of it 11:42:41 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 11:42:45 slime-query-replace-on-system 11:43:31 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kalfllesqdtnwdsk] has left #lisp 11:46:18 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:51:39 and then on top of that, you can do slime-query-replace-on-regexp 11:52:01 anyway that's my plan, I have no clue when ever I'll come around doing that 11:52:09 sorry I meant slime-query-replace-on-xref 11:54:19 with dired mode it replacing should be trivial 11:54:28 sorry? 11:55:30 dired has dired-do-query-replace-regexp, but i don't know how easy is it to hook something to dired 11:55:34 with your asdf-system-files it shouldn't be too hard to do it directly 11:55:52 slime-browse-system wouldn't be a bad addition either 11:56:31 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:56:52 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:57:05 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.42.200] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:57:09 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:58:13 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:58:37 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 12:00:39 scottmaccal [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has joined #lisp 12:02:49 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:01 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:03:18 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [] 12:03:38 konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has joined #lisp 12:03:49 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 12:04:33 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 12:07:23 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1571.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:08:25 ok, i got slime-browse-system too, it's as easy 12:09:11 benny [n=benny@i577A1571.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:10:18 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.160.123] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:11:06 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.160.123] has joined #lisp 12:12:22 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 12:13:46 -!- antifuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:14:33 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [] 12:14:47 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:14:50 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:57 already comitted? 12:17:09 not yet, in a minute. 12:18:06 Ok, I'd like the following changes: slime-open-system should only ask to load the system if it's not already loaded. And there should be repl commands. 12:18:21 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:20:23 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@76.170.129.134] has quit ["night"] 12:20:46 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@67.111.42.162.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit ["leaving"] 12:22:08 kerimbasol [n=kerim@85.107.133.126] has joined #lisp 12:22:49 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:26:12 oh my god, a day in my life of tech support that doesn't suck 12:26:23 a user who stops by with cake as a thankyou for rescuing her system 12:27:23 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has joined #lisp 12:28:24 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 12:31:04 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp033.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:31:46 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:31:53 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:31:57 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:05 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:34:21 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:34:29 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:36:09 dlowe [n=dlowe@63.107.91.99] has joined #lisp 12:36:35 *Xach* once got a 5l keg of beer from an appreciative brewery owner... 12:37:08 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:39:03 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 12:39:25 hello 12:41:14 hello fe[nl]ix 12:41:34 hi kami-` 12:42:07 (defpackage ...(:export function-name)) how can I force function-name to be exported as lower-case? it shows up as FUNCTION-NAME in my slime autocompletion 12:43:02 nm #:f-n 12:43:29 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:43:29 fusss: (:export "function-name") 12:43:44 I think the question might better be "how can I make slime autocompletion look like I want" 12:43:57 if the symbol is foo, it has a name of "FOO", in general 12:46:15 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:47:44 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:47:53 it's supposed to do the right thing 12:48:51 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:49:33 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 12:51:12 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:51:26 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:51:26 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:51:42 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:51:45 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 12:53:11 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.160.123] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:56:09 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has left #lisp 13:03:41 rrice [n=rrice@76.244.150.49] has joined #lisp 13:04:17 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:06:23 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.160.123] has joined #lisp 13:09:20 i am exporting my own functions but slime autocompletion doesn't do hints for them now; though it does properly lower-case them 13:10:08 i see, defpackage is followed by the wrong in-package 13:10:21 d'oh 13:10:31 anyone awake care about external formats in sbcl? 13:10:38 Krystof: i care 13:10:57 Krystof: my care is nebulous and potentially not helpful, but i care 13:11:27 Krystof: ditto (just wrote :external-format #+clisp (make-encoding :utf-8) #-clisp :utf-8 :-/ 13:12:09 Specifically I care that the available external formats are documented, and the mechanism for creating a new external format is documented, and there is a decent set of tools for working with an external format as an object. 13:12:24 I somewhat care, but probably even less than Xachand fusss 13:12:31 s/and/ and/ 13:12:59 *Xach* also somewhat cares about line endings 13:13:04 yeah 13:13:06 ok. 13:13:18 line endings can be a bit of a pita 13:13:40 I wish my brain were big enough to come up with a good, simple implementation of line-ending handling for sbcl 13:13:44 dammit, nearly every lisp has a different way to choose external formats 13:13:44 at the moment it isn't 13:13:46 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-183-99-177.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:23 does anyone here actually use any external formats that aren't utf-8 or latin-1? 13:14:34 I occasionally use :ascii 13:14:50 Krystof: there probably are people that really do use totally other formats :) 13:15:02 Krystof: I've used ascii once too 13:15:05 *Fare* would like a way for SBCL to eventually use semi-portable library code for its I/O, that could be shared with other implementations and/or serve as a reference implementation for new extensions to the standard. 13:15:16 just like it uses an upstream ASDF 13:15:23 s/used ascii once/am using ascii somewhere/ 13:15:49 that'd be a good thing 13:16:04 I've used EBCDIC, but not with the SBCL external-format, for portability and tweakability reasons. 13:16:07 it already does use semi-portable library code for its i/o 13:16:19 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-178-132-211.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:16:25 yes, but that isn't (yet) a ported library 13:16:27 stassats: When are you going to commit slime-browse-system? 13:16:31 so, say that instead 13:16:35 detachable from the core 13:16:43 no, better, stop _saying_ it and _do_ something about it 13:17:05 tcr: i'm adding asking to load only if it's not loaded 13:17:34 stassats: Well, could you commit browse-system on its own? (Or are you halfway with your changes?) 13:17:42 halfway 13:17:42 I wanted to write the blog posting right now 13:17:45 ah ok 13:17:46 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:17:48 well I'll wait then 13:17:49 I believe that the way xcvb names modules is precisely designed for this kind of "assemble parts together, plug things in and out" endeavours 13:17:55 i'm almost done 13:18:03 cool 13:18:17 splittist [n=David@85.4.220.156] has joined #lisp 13:18:20 re 13:18:20 I've done it with a few parts of qres or xcvb - the dependency name remains the same, but the thing has moved. 13:18:37 ok, well, in work that will impact almost nobody in my external-formats tree I just fixed a bunch of embarrassing bugs in iso-8859-x encodings for x != 1 or 15 13:18:51 ropert [n=user@CPE00222d12ee72-CM00222d12ee6e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:19:08 Krystof, congrats 13:20:57 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:23:21 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-117-28.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 13:24:56 Krystof, would work towards merging say, SBCL encoding support and babel, be accepted upstream? 13:26:42 tcr: ok, comitted 13:27:54 *deepfire* considers the "do something about it" line vaguely offensive, in general 13:28:08 tcr: with conditional loading and repl shortcuts 13:28:21 levy [n=levy@89.223.235.113] has joined #lisp 13:28:27 Fare: I can't find babel documentation 13:29:17 maybe the solution would be to replace babel with "sbcl-encodings" made portable. 13:29:20 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 13:29:29 hum. 13:30:03 @chapter First Chapter 13:30:03 Bla bla bla, bla bla bla. 13:30:03 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:30:09 arnee [n=arnee@mail.kono.de] has joined #lisp 13:31:01 from what I can tell from a quick look at the source, babel does not support replacements when an encoding or decoding error happens 13:31:42 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-183-99-177.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:31:43 tcr: ping 13:32:13 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 13:32:45 Fare: babel is quite fast and flexible... re replacement 13:33:47 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:34:13 Fare, any quick initial reactions to my last bugreport? 13:37:52 aigon [n=ojof@92.82.68.152] has joined #lisp 13:39:11 *Krystof* looks at the pile of dos and windows codepage external formats, despairs at the thought of writing tests for all of them 13:40:01 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:41:48 coliv [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has joined #lisp 13:43:07 deepfire: after the one I replied to this morning? 13:43:40 Fare, yes 13:44:16 ok, reading.. 13:44:34 -!- aigon [n=ojof@92.82.68.152] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:45:08 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:45:47 Krystof: (deftest codepage-1 ;blah blah blah, blah blah blah...) is surely canonical? 13:45:51 looks like there's a conflict between cl-launch and asdf-binary-locations or whatever you're using 13:46:02 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:46:23 quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has joined #lisp 13:46:42 if your script is trying to control fasl locations, it should tell cl-launch about them. 13:46:45 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:58 for instance, export LISP_FASL_CACHE=NIL 13:47:24 (will disable the caching by cl-launch) 13:48:05 Fare: what is the latest agreement instead of .cache/lisp-fasl/? 13:48:24 antifuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:08 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has quit [] 13:49:36 splittist: I shall let the magic of Open Source improve my test coverage 13:49:50 Fare, understood 13:50:30 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:51:52 Krystof: :D 13:52:04 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:34 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483D8E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:12 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-117-28.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:55:29 "It compiles? Ship it!" 13:56:05 -!- ropert [n=user@CPE00222d12ee72-CM00222d12ee6e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:56:42 *Krystof* points at http://rvw.doc.gold.ac.uk/sullivan/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=sbcl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a2c4dbc41ee6f18b3d28e94c0affffb8577d6173#patch2 13:56:51 I am not actually shirking, just quailing 13:57:09 stassats: cool thanks 13:57:14 fe[nl]ix: I'm here 13:57:43 tcr: the named-readtables repository contains fasls 13:58:07 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:59:01 fe[nl]ix: I can't find any in http://common-lisp.net/project/editor-hints/darcs/named-readtables/ 13:59:09 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 14:00:54 tcr: that's strange. however, when I clone it I can see 3 fasls in tests/ 14:01:10 I'll try to clone it 14:02:52 seems like you're right 14:03:09 attila_lendvai, levy: a clean checkout of the live repos takes 40 minutes 14:03:40 Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has joined #lisp 14:03:52 kami-`, hmm, some --lazy for darcs repos might help 14:04:00 I think we can include taht 14:04:33 fe[nl]ix: I'll fix that asap 14:04:33 kami-`: that server is on a shitty adsl for now... its upstream is about 20k/sec 14:04:33 *tcr* brv 14:04:33 brb 14:04:33 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:04:56 I don't know if git has something similar 14:05:06 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:05:39 There is --depth in git 14:05:55 -!- gdoteof [n=gdot@sbhsa32.ma.burl.vt.sover.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:06:16 quidnunc, is it possible not to wait all patches just get some kind of a lazy git repo? 14:06:59 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:07:21 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.129] has joined #lisp 14:08:33 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:30 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-237-98.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:09:31 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:10:06 stassats: slime-browse-system behaves strangely 14:10:29 it seems to show the files relatively to the cwd of emacs 14:10:50 levy: git clone --depth 5 git://sbcl.boinkor.net/sbcl.git is pretty quick, and git log will show only 5 revisions 14:11:06 tcr pasted "for stassats" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89042 14:11:22 levy: the install doc has a small problem. create-links.sh is run /before/ the dojo build has been run. It creates a dangling symlink called dojo* 14:12:16 levy: Not to my knowledge 14:13:01 tcr: yeah, that's how dired shows it, but otherwise it works 14:13:04 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:13:07 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 14:14:42 stassats: Well, can't you make it open the directory .../sequence-iterators/? 14:14:45 levy: But see this thread: http://kerneltrap.org/mailarchive/git/2008/2/8/782234 14:15:31 where how to implement it was discussed 14:16:14 fe[nl]ix: ok I removed the fasl files 14:16:38 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.235.113] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:16:38 Is a warning about mismatched slime and swank versions normal? I believe I'm sourcing them from the same directory cloned from the git repo. 14:16:59 quidnunc: no. 14:17:00 tcr: i can make it use directory where .asd file resides 14:17:11 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-ucohcifdtnsnoksi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:17:18 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-zxbzbgkmxfzjimbd] has joined #lisp 14:17:20 stassats: yes that seems good 14:17:26 levy [n=levy@89.223.235.113] has joined #lisp 14:17:30 and maybe list .asd file itself? 14:17:32 Xach: Where would I find the version numbers for each component in the source? 14:17:40 quidnunc: Yes if you just updated the source, but didn't restart emacs 14:18:01 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:18:19 stassats: It should list the content of the directory the .asd file lays in (not sure what you meant with list .asd file itself) 14:18:37 ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:18:53 tcr: list it alongside other files 14:19:39 -!- quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has quit ["restarts emacs"] 14:19:54 If you list the content of the directory the .asd file lays in -- you also implicitly list the .asd file 14:19:57 Messi [n=n@20.231.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:20:00 I feel stupid 14:20:31 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.160.123] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:20:32 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.235.113] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:20:34 juego de boxeo online http://www.kobox.org/kobox-fande-Nourine.html 14:20:39 -!- Messi [n=n@20.231.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:20:44 oh, but not files in a directory are controlled by asdf, it now just lists files which are defined in asd 14:20:50 not all files 14:21:18 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:21:26 levy [n=levy@89.223.235.113] has joined #lisp 14:21:38 (dired (file-name-directory path-to-asd-file)) 14:21:40 quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has joined #lisp 14:22:14 so you think this is better then (dired list-of-files-in-asd) ? 14:22:21 s/then/than/ 14:22:49 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:49 Restarting emacs didn't do it. How can manually inspect my source files to o tell if they are the correct versions? 14:23:16 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633767.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:24:04 tcr: Is file-name-directory standard? I'm not seeing that in clhs. 14:24:38 tcr: To get a listing of files, I've been doing (directory (parse-namestring "/path/to/files/*.*")) for a recent project I've been working on. 14:24:39 TDT: I'm talking elisp with stassats 14:24:47 ohhh ok, sorry missed that part 14:24:59 Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:25:04 -!- quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has quit [Client Quit] 14:25:26 stassats: I see your point, but it's what I expect. We can do more fancy stuff if the need arises 14:26:03 demmel [n=Adium@d202.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:26:09 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1571.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:26:51 fine then, i'll readjust it 14:30:36 levy, attila_lendvai: the live system builds and runs great! 14:31:15 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:31:24 demmel1 [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:33:16 tcr: done. 14:33:25 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 14:33:35 -!- demmel [n=Adium@d202.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:33:36 levy: although it loads a bit slow in the browser due to the high number of http requests 14:34:40 kami-`: good to hear, there's at least one user who managed to get through the dependency hell... we'll work more on the install stuff, and feedback/patches are welcome of course! :) 14:36:13 attila_lendvai: there are 2 small issues: create-links.sh is called too early (in the install guide) 14:36:31 and levy has moved build.sh to hu.dwim.build, which is not reflected in the guide 14:36:37 I'll send in patches. 14:37:14 kami-`: wait, i have some pending changes there 14:37:14 has anyone used cl-python (http://github.com/franzinc/cl-python) ? 14:37:14 ryepup, memo from sykopomp: Thanks for the link! This is really great :D 14:37:27 For the record: I just made slime-changelog-date callable interactively. That means when people in future want to know their slime version, you can tell them to M-x slime-changelog-date 14:37:28 ryepup: org mode + beamer is pretty amazing. 14:37:59 sykopomp: glad to hear it, I'll have to try that out next time I need a presentation (which is hopefully a long way away) 14:38:20 Reaver2 [n=AFLI@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 14:39:50 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:11 tcr: that could be done with (called-interactively-p) 14:41:23 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.235.113] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:42:18 stassats: 21.4 recommends this way 14:42:41 emacs 21.4? 14:42:58 though their reasoning is kind of silly in light of call-interactively 14:43:09 attila_lendvai, I'm not aware of any agreement 14:43:12 I mean section 21.4 in the elisp manual 14:43:47 attila_lendvai: why don't we use /static/dojo-18738/... in the urls and set the header to never expire. That would speed up the loading of each page, wouldn't it? 14:43:50 i thought so, that's why i asked 14:43:59 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:44:16 Fare: you proposed something else, because of cffi-grovel writing .so files... so it's not lisp-fasl 14:44:54 kami-`: caching of static files should be one hour (i think, levy changed it recently) 14:45:34 kami-`: otherwise, it's far away on the TODO to set it forever for dojo builds now that we have the svn revision in the url 14:45:44 s/it/it to/ 14:46:06 attila_lendvai: I don't see the svn revision in the url. Should I? 14:46:21 attila: so far, I just renamed "lisp-fasl" to "common-lisp" 14:46:37 so people who'd stumble on it can google what it's about 14:46:47 kami-`: 18738 is the svn revision 14:46:51 attila_lendvai: and I don't mean that the /server/ caches the files, but the client 14:47:14 kami-`: yes, we are talking about the same thing 14:47:16 stassats: wonderful! thank you very much 14:47:43 attila_lendvai: OK. And should the svn revision be visible in the URLs? 14:48:25 kami-`: which urls? it should certainly be visible in the urls getting dojo stuff, otherwise it wouldn't work 14:49:20 *attila_lendvai* pushed some facelifting to the install guide 14:49:35 attila_lendvai: yes. that's why I'm wondering. The URLs on the freshly built hu.dwim.home server here are /static/dojo/dijit/.... no svn version in it 14:49:42 s/in it/in them 14:49:48 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 14:49:54 attila_lendvai, did you try xcvb yet? 14:49:58 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-78-067.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:50:29 kami-`: that's a bug somewhere... ignore it for now unless it causes instant itches... 14:51:22 Fare: not yet, sorry (i've got some girlfriend interference with work hours nowadays) 14:51:30 mishoo [n=mishoo@86.124.79.217] has joined #lisp 14:51:31 attila_lendvai: OK. At least I understood correctly. 14:51:47 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 14:51:48 good interference to have 14:51:56 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:52:11 in any case, I fixed some of the issues that might have irked you. 14:52:28 I believe the master mode is now working well enough that I can focus on the standalone backend 14:52:35 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 14:52:56 sounds good, i'll get to it once i finished refactoring our walker to use contextl 14:53:23 (every time I add a feature to xcvb, it proves much easier than anticipated, despite the bugs... quite opposite to the huge piece of bloat we're building at work) 14:53:45 what kind of things do you use contextl for in your walker? 14:54:52 ruediger [n=ruediger@93-82-15-73.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 14:54:53 Fare: quasi-quote is using the walker to generate js code, so it needs to be customized pretty much. currently it's a kludge, some context CLOS instance with lambda's in slots... 14:55:21 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:27 levy [n=levy@89.223.235.113] has joined #lisp 14:55:28 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-227-32.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 14:55:32 lambdas in slots? 14:56:08 stuff like macro-name? predicates need to be different when using at lisp->js compilation, or walking pure lisp code. 14:56:31 different lambda for js/cl in the macro-name-predicate slot of *the-context* 14:56:33 *Fare* just resurrected his old broken-lcd'ed libretto with a big external screen, and downloads the xcvb release-tarball to see if that works... 14:56:56 Fare: grab your package manager and install virtualbox 14:57:06 you can even roll back to image snapshots 14:57:29 yeah, I should do that someday 14:57:42 I wanted a more software approach though -- using NixOS or such. 14:57:52 Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has joined #lisp 14:57:53 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:58:37 I'm still not sure what is this special treatment of macros... aren't macros fully expanded before you get to producing js, anyway? 14:58:44 hmmm.... NixOS and making a filesystem that would use Venti-like backend ... :) 14:59:02 or do you do something special to avoid expanding macros from the underlying implementation? 14:59:17 Fare: js stuff has it's own macro namespace, and a primitive to "import" cl macros in it (you want full control there...) 14:59:19 p_l: :) 15:00:07 is there a web template solution in CL like jsp in java? 15:00:08 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-142.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:37 rullie: there's a ton of web-related stuff for CL, and many people still write their own. It's too damned easy to make one from scratch :) 15:00:39 rullie: there's one in the UCW codebase, uses xml namespaces 15:01:05 So the point is that you want the "same" CL code to be read by the CL compiler or the CL-to-JS compiler, except some parts (notably macros) will behave differently in the two cases? 15:01:06 rullie: seems though as if "template" solution is rather rare 15:01:27 rullie: not an easy ride though... i prefer our stuff more: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-quasi-quote/present-class.html 15:02:01 attila_lendvai: what is this present class thing 15:02:39 rullie: delete back the url, it's described there 15:03:04 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 15:03:54 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:03:56 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-83.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:05:45 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.235.113] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:07:59 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:12 levy [n=levy@89.223.229.111] has joined #lisp 15:09:07 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.129] has quit ["so long.."] 15:10:19 how expensive are lexical rebindings with let? 15:10:24 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-10-180.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:29 is it more or less just putting a value on the stack? 15:11:17 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:11:26 which is cheaper, rebinding with lexical or dynamic variables? 15:11:32 Only in a very naive implementation 15:11:41 -!- arnee [n=arnee@mail.kono.de] has quit [] 15:11:47 lexical variables are usually completely resolved at compile-time 15:11:50 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-zxbzbgkmxfzjimbd] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:11:51 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 15:12:27 They do have notion at run-time when they're closed over by functions 15:12:54 attila_lendvai, in present-class, shouldn't a macro do both the readtable twiddling AND the telling SWANK about it? 15:14:49 Fare: that code is very much obsolete, but the new tutorial at dwim.hu is not ready yet 15:14:54 *attila_lendvai* needs to leave 15:15:54 tcr: i have (loop  do (let ((foo )) (loop  do (let ((foo )) ) and so on. So i rebind the variables in the body of the loop and have a 9 fold nested loop, so i care about speed. Should i use lexical or special variables? 15:16:21 demmel1, might depend on your compiler 15:16:35 demmel1, I would use lexical 15:16:55 Uhm, in presence of threads, specials have quite some costs 15:16:55 demmel1: i'd certainly experiment. 15:16:58 but you can time it... it's just a (declare (special ...)) away 15:17:52 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-6-89.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:17:53 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 15:18:04 tcr: no need for threads. just a fairly simple but heavy one-time computation (can i disable the threading overhead). 15:18:17 another solution might be to use side effects. But in general binding a lexical is allocating space in the frame on the stack, rebinding a special is finding the (possibly thread-local) cell and shuffling the SPCPDL or equivalent. 15:18:38 (you can recompile w/o thread support) 15:19:09 if you're starved for speed, make you own stack using a (specialized?) vector. 15:19:20 or using sbcl's globals (or how are they called) 15:19:53 (note that in Scheme with multiple-entry continuations, writable bindings have to be heap-allocated in the general case, so cost more than just stack space) 15:20:00 I'd be interested in the common lisp implementations were specials are faster than lexicals 15:20:16 I don't think there are any 15:20:36 drgnvale [n=acristin@209.16.73.144] has joined #lisp 15:21:01 tcr: I can imagine an old-style single-threaded lisp with global addresses and a fast spcpdl where specials were faster than lexicals. 15:21:37 Hooray 15:21:57 Fare: I use the rebinding for some kind of backtracking, so simply using side-effects wont do. But you guys are right I should write the code first and later worry about optimization since its just a declare special anyway... 15:22:07 the stack space allocation can be done once per defun, so there's no additional allocation cost for multiple lexicals 15:22:25 sometimes lexicals can even be stored in registers 15:22:51 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:23:56 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:40 tcr: threaded SBCL without separate compilation will have special access in exactly 1 memory dereference in the common case. 15:27:00 With assignment across closures, it could be faster to use a special than a lexical variable. 15:27:25 what's "without separate compilation" to mean? 15:27:34 COMPILE, not COMPILE-FILE. 15:27:52 so it's faster in the COMPILE case? 15:28:19 piso: I can look the tls index up during compilation instead of waiting until LOAD-time. 15:28:21 (presumably because you know the TLS index of the special) 15:28:31 right 15:28:58 demmel1, if you're doing a lot of backtracking, you might wanna use Screamer 15:29:20 Fare: if you're doing a lot of backtracking, you probably want to do less backtracking. 15:29:24 but even with sbcl 15:29:50 's super-duper implementation, specials are not -faster- than lexicals 15:30:00 (unless closures are in the game) 15:30:54 piso: assignment is the problem really. You'll get a value cell with assignment and un-inlined local functions, even if you only call them. 15:31:12 yeah 15:31:27 minion: tell me about Screamer 15:31:29 demmel1: please look at Screamer: Screamer is an extension of Common Lisp (thus a Library) that adds support for nondeterministic programming including backtracking and undoable side-effects. http://www.cliki.net/Screamer 15:31:32 -!- Adlai`` is now known as Adlai 15:31:56 hey Adlai. Could you solve yesterday's permission problem? 15:32:32 tcr: not yet... I tried a few times but got the same error, and haven't heard back from drewc yet. 15:32:35 *Adlai* checks his email. 15:33:09 Fare: Screamer does look very interesting 15:34:26 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:35:38 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:36:43 pkhuong, couldn't that TLS index be linked into the code using LOAD-TIME-VALUE ? 15:37:34 Fare: that's pretty much what happens. That's one reference to get the TLS index and another one to index into the TLS area. 15:38:04 elurin [n=user@81.213.202.64] has joined #lisp 15:38:52 kiuma [n=kiuma@host148-131-static.28-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:39:49 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-217-184.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:39:54 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:39:58 Greetings. 15:40:07 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:42:13 Funny story. So, I'm just on the phone with the client talking up lisp, how I have all of the data loading in the lisp image and we can just interrogate it. He asks for something, I write a function as we're talking and give him the answer. He's impressed, "Wow, that was fast." Then, I try to load a large file into Emacs that *must* be loaded using find-file-literally or it will crash emacs, except that I forget to use find-file-literally and cras 15:42:18 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 15:42:34 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:42:53 On a positive note, I think I know how to read the data faster this time. We'll get to find out. :-) 15:44:22 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:44:23 nurv101 [n=nurv101@fw.l2f.inesc-id.pt] has joined #lisp 15:44:34 tmh: the point of your story did not make it to me. it was cut at "find-file-literally and cras" 15:44:39 -!- nurv101 is now known as arturventura 15:45:01 H4ns: Ah, and crash emacs. Now I have to read the data from scratch, it took 10 hours last time. 15:45:12 why do you need to load the file in emacs? were you interrogating the file with elisp? 15:45:19 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.229.111] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:45:36 tmh: time to separate out your lisp and your emacs and use M-x slime-connect :) 15:45:48 you probably might want to add a hook in your emacs to intercept C-x C-f and do the right thing 15:45:56 Fare: I was interrogating the data in SBCL, working through slime. There was an error and I wanted to look at the original data. 15:46:06 Xach: Amen 15:46:24 Fare: Yeah, that too. 15:46:56 levy [n=levy@89.223.229.111] has joined #lisp 15:47:09 in the 10 hours needed to load the data, you can do it, so at least there won't be a next time 15:47:30 Blaay [i=Blay@BSN-143-104-176.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:49 you might also want to dump an image of your lisp after loading 15:48:12 Fare: Sure, I'm going to spend the afternoon implementing a better reader, though. The first cut used READ, which in hindsight is ridiculously inefficient if I know what I'm reading. 15:48:40 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:50:19 What I mean is that I'm reading numbers, not lisp forms, so no sense using READ and making it figure that out. 15:55:06 reading numbers as ascii text representations? There are tricky rounding issues with that. 15:55:22 Be sure to do it right - or delegate to a library that does. 15:56:02 Fare: 'How to Read Floating Point Numbers Accurately' ~ Clinger 90 15:56:22 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.229.111] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:56:30 for instance. Hopefully, SBCL already does it right, so you just have to expose the internals. 15:58:08 levy [n=levy@89.223.229.111] has joined #lisp 15:58:35 -!- Reaver2 [n=AFLI@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has left #lisp 15:58:56 Between that paper and meta-sexp, I'm confident that I can get accurately data, faster. Once I have it working, I'm going to hand optimize the rules for reading floats generated by meta-sexp 15:59:08 s/accurately/accurate 16:00:53 Oh, and now that I've demonstrated the powers of lisp to the client, I'm getting IM'd with "How hard would it be to do X?" Heh. 16:02:34 redblue [i=star@ppp076.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:02:45 Can you use MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND at the top level to generate a closure? 16:02:57 what's meta-sexp? 16:03:27 tmh: accurate floats should probably be printed in hex. Simple, cross-language, no rounding issue. 16:04:05 I'm working through some scheme code that has what is effectively a nasty LABELS form. This is prototype stuff, so I just want to get the CL equivalent so I understand it. 16:04:23 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 16:04:55 pkhuong: No arguments, but I'm at the mercy of the program that wrote the data. Phase 2 is going to be accessing the binary files directly instead of using it's post-processing routines. 16:05:08 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:05:11 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:05:45 Never mind the M-V-B question, it makes no sense. I know what I need to do. 16:06:12 tmh: binary formats have portability issues that hex floats in text files don't ;) 16:06:22 Fare: meta-sexp is a KK(1) parser generator, whatever KK(1) means. http://www.cliki.net/meta-sexp 16:06:25 coyo [n=alex@144.162.133.168] has joined #lisp 16:06:33 tmh: LL(1)... 16:07:30 pkhuong: Yes, we'll address the binary portability in Phase 3. ;-) And oops, LL(1)... yeah, I still don't fully appreciate the significance, but I know how to use it. 16:07:33 tmh: but then, saving a core responds to your needs, iirc, so that's moot ;) 16:08:21 tmh: LL(1) means that you only have to look at the next token to decide which rule to apply. It's pretty much the set of languages that can be naturally recognised with a recursive descent program. 16:08:25 Yeah, I'm getting to the point in my lisp odyssey where I'm having to learn things that I used to think "Cool feature, set that aside for when you need it.". 16:09:26 scottmaccal [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has joined #lisp 16:10:01 pkhuong: Instead of reading from a stream, meta-sexp slurps the data using READ-SEQUENCE so that in can peek ahead and transverse the data much faster. 16:10:34 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:11:15 pkhuong: I ran a test reading a long string of integers, comparing READ, PARSE-INTEGER and meta-sexp rules, meta-sexp was much faster than READ, slower than PARSE-INTEGER and basically the same relation for consing. 16:11:36 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-129-203.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:12:03 aigon [n=ojof@92.84.3.254] has joined #lisp 16:12:24 stassats: http://trittweiler.blogspot.com/2009/10/slime-tidbits-2009-10-21.html 16:12:24 -!- borism [n=boris@195.50.199.134] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:12:29 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.229.111] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:12:44 Meaning it consed less than READ but more than PARSE-INTEGER. PARSE-INTEGER didn't cons at all in my test. 16:13:47 you have gigabytes of data? 16:13:58 or better yet, it takes 10 hours to read the data? 16:14:17 levy [n=levy@89.223.229.111] has joined #lisp 16:14:44 guaqua: It was a first cut. I know what the problem is now and how to fix it. I also have a working program to test. 16:14:50 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-129-203.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:15:27 tcr: man, people still use that gtk theme? xD 16:15:35 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.196.87] has joined #lisp 16:17:39 tmh: so 10 hours takes too long? 16:18:27 i.e. do you need it to be faster :) 16:18:38 guaqua: Way too long, especially when you look at the TIME output and the majority of the time is spent in garbage collection. 16:19:30 -!- aigon [n=ojof@92.84.3.254] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:22:34 tcr: what does serpendem mean? 16:26:45 aigon [n=ojof@92.84.3.254] has joined #lisp 16:27:40 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.245.134] has joined #lisp 16:29:36 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:29:42 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/session] has joined #lisp 16:29:48 -!- beach` is now known as beach 16:30:16 Ugh, translating this scheme code is painful, I think it is mainly a style issue. 16:30:23 good evening 16:30:33 -!- aigon [n=ojof@92.84.3.254] has quit [Client Quit] 16:30:41 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:30:59 Hey beach. 16:32:53 Can an FLET function call the function enclosing it? 16:33:01 Or do I need LABELS? 16:33:01 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:33:16 labels, yes 16:33:36 why? 16:33:45 isn't that backwards? 16:34:09 LABELS shadows enclosing functions 16:34:20 wow, alu.org is on UCW :-) 16:34:20 iv_s [n=iv_s@92.124.58.47] has joined #lisp 16:34:33 what's enclosing functions? i though about functions defined in flet itself 16:34:44 fusss: since when ? 16:34:46 I'm translating some Scheme code from a paper to CL so that I understand the paper better. I'm trying to do the most straight forward translation just to minimize the effort. 16:34:48 oh, ok. I was thinking of functions outside the flet. 16:35:02 stassats: That would en encoled function, not an enclosing function. 16:35:09 tmh: maybe lisppaste the scheme? 16:35:14 fusss: at http://alu.org/alu/home I see "Powered by AllegroServe and Allegro WebActions " 16:35:16 gah, what happened to my typing. 16:35:17 fe[nl]ix: dunno, just fetched their page via drakma and saw the .ucw URLs. Their error messages are also Lispy 16:35:32 That would be an enclosed function, not an enclosing function. There. 16:35:33 Adlai: So we can all feel the pain? :-) 16:36:01 heh 16:36:07 fe[nl]ix: view source, then search .ucw 16:37:21 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 16:38:38 The scheme code will take a bit, let me start with what I'm trying to do. 16:38:52 The scheme code is in an old PDF, so it doesn't copy seamlessly 16:39:32 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.241.209] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:40:43 tmh pasted "FLET or LABELS ???" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89051 16:41:46 tmh: in this case, either one would work. 16:41:58 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:42:09 Ok, thanks. 16:42:29 the difference between FLET or LABELS would matter if you were trying to have a local function called foo, or if do-something needed recursion. 16:42:57 and I guess you can also do mutual recursion with LABELS. 16:43:22 Adlai: Yeah, I understood that aspect. 16:44:34 tmh: there is the school of "use the most specific operator". so, if you don't recurse, use flet 16:44:53 tmh: that way, the reader will immediately know "ah, no recursion" 16:45:02 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@115.184.21.197] has joined #lisp 16:45:09 -!- silenius [n=jl@192.166.201.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:45:15 H4ns: Thanks, I subscribe to that school. 16:45:18 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:23 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.196.87] has quit [Client Quit] 16:47:51 There are a lot of contortions in the scheme code so that it is tail-recursive. 16:48:55 I'm not sure that sbcl does get the tricky rounding issues right 16:49:06 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 16:49:11 (regarding reading floats) I have no idea what happens if the processor is not in round-to-nearest mode 16:49:51 tmh: You might consider writing a Scheme-to-CL compiler. 16:50:18 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:50:28 Xof: Thanks. That's not 100% critical for what I'm doing. I want to implement an accurate reader, but what I'm doing isn't sensitive. 16:50:43 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 16:50:58 beach: That is way outside my area of expertise and I'm doing it by hand so that I understand the algorithm in the paper. 16:51:03 -!- iv_s_ [n=iv_s@92.124.53.243] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:51:07 *beach* didn't think Xof was talking to tmh 16:51:50 I was responding to Fare but he was responding to tmh 16:52:05 Ah. 16:52:30 timor [n=martin@87.234.97.27] has joined #lisp 16:52:43 beach: I only seem crazy. :-) 16:53:09 Good to know :) 16:53:20 *Xof* despairs at cross-posted inane discussions on lisp implementation mailing lists 16:53:28 keep it to comp.lang.lisp so everyone can ignore it, guys 16:53:42 Xof: lexical repl variables? 16:53:54 how did you guess? 16:53:56 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:53:57 h3 [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 16:54:10 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:54:30 oh, the idea might have popped up while I was flushing the inbox. 16:55:03 Woot, 'Foundations of Multithreaded, Parallel, and Distributed Programming' just arrived in the mail. Now, maybe I can get a clue about concurrent programming. 16:55:20 levy: is there a method in perec to clone a persistent-instance? I had a hack to do that, which doesn't compile any more. 16:55:27 tmh: there's no "concurrent" in the title 16:55:53 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@115.184.21.197] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:56:04 -!- HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:56:17 stassats: Hmm, I was using concurrent to cover those topics, where did I go wrong? (See, I don't have a clue :-) 16:56:50 tmh: i'm always confused about those terms too 16:57:37 stassats: Well, the preface uses 'concurrent' several times in the first paragraph, so I think it's applicable. 16:58:48 elurin` [n=user@88.254.107.237] has joined #lisp 16:59:14 parallel, really happens in parallel - concurrent, might happen in parallel 16:59:41 distributed: might never happen 16:59:56 "Concurrent programming is programming by agreement"? 17:00:01 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 17:00:05 Xof: sshh, I want my scholarships ;) 17:01:12 pkhuong: just come up with an elegant proof that it might never happen... 17:01:50 -!- elurin [n=user@81.213.202.64] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:02:05 splittist: i'm not on that side of the fence, unfortunately. I sell myself with words like "industrial", "practicioners" and "large-scale". 17:02:12 pkhuong: if you're not coming to work with me, I'm not interested :-) 17:02:53 quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has joined #lisp 17:03:21 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@host148-131-static.28-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:03:27 'It is well known that practitioners in an industrial setting don't work if they can possibly help it.'? 17:03:45 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:03:46 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.229.111] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:04:03 rdd [n=rdd@83.250.145.223] has joined #lisp 17:04:27 'looked at on a large-enough scale, nothing works'? 17:04:38 levy [n=levy@89.223.229.111] has joined #lisp 17:05:56 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 17:06:55 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 17:07:38 splittist: "looked at on a large-enough scale, the only thing that works is a small scale'? 17:08:01 -!- varjag [n=eugene@62.97.226.122] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:08:18 'looked at on a large-enough scale, we don't understand how it works.' 17:08:32 benny [n=benny@i577A09C6.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:08:39 Glass half-full 17:09:20 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:09:36 asksol [n=ask@212-181-96-82.customer.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:09:41 Can you do the 'glass is the wrong size' variant next? 17:10:34 -!- asksol [n=ask@212-181-96-82.customer.telia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:10:37 'looked at on a large-enough scale, our model doesn't work.' 17:10:42 levy: ping 17:12:37 kami-`, pong :-) 17:12:47 my net has problems 17:12:58 going up & down continuously 17:14:00 asksol [n=ask@212-181-96-82.customer.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:15:18 jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:15:24 "the glass is concurrently half-full and half-empty" 17:15:51 cmm- for the win. 17:16:09 i smell quantum mechanics 17:17:02 yay for your highly-developed sense of smell 17:17:30 levy: I have function to clone a persistent-instance and assign a new oid to it. Have you added something like this to hu.dwim.perec in the last 6 months? 17:18:46 kami-`, there's a copy-persistent-instance? 17:20:04 at least in hu.dwim.perec, I'm not sure if cl-perec has that 17:22:25 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:22:36 kami- pasted "clone-instance" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89054 17:24:02 lighterthanair [n=lightert@38.105.245.18] has joined #lisp 17:25:10 kami- annotated #89054 "clone-instance with better formatting" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89054#1 17:25:43 anyone familiar with installing scheme on the mac? 17:25:56 levy: do you think I can replace my code with copy-persistent-instance? 17:26:14 lighterthanair: this channel is for common lisp, for scheme see #scheme 17:26:28 fare: serpens means snake, serpendere means to crawl 17:27:01 yeah. it was quiet in there, so i thought, hey, maybe try the lisp room. 17:27:27 -!- arturventura [n=nurv101@fw.l2f.inesc-id.pt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:27:58 borism [n=boris@195.50.199.134] has joined #lisp 17:28:05 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:06 levy: I think my version is just the 'unwinded' copy-protocol 17:28:13 lighterthanair: Have you chosen an implementation? 17:28:32 mit scheme 17:28:47 beach , if that's what you mean by implementation. 17:28:58 Yes, that's what I meant. 17:30:33 lighterthanair: What made you choose that? I am just interested and have no advice to give. 17:31:17 mit has a free online version of a course (i forget the exact name) and i thought it would be a good idea to use the software used in the course. 17:31:40 kami-`, seems to be the same except that c-p-e is recursive 17:31:54 kami-`, which may or may not be what you want 17:32:14 in general you certainly not want to copy the whole db just because it's coherent 17:32:58 lighterthanair: OK, next question, why Scheme as opposed to Common Lisp? 17:34:15 It just occurred to me that it would be nice to have the actual Scheme code from the paper running to compare my common lisp code against. The paper is from 1990 and I have Dr. Scheme asking me to choose a language. R5RS should work, right? 17:34:40 levy: you mean c-p-i makes a deep copy of the instance? 17:35:02 beach, i have a mac? 17:35:15 lighterthanair: Why Scheme, and not Common Lisp? 17:35:26 lighterthanair: Er, that's no reason. 17:35:37 Clozure CL is a fantastic implementation, and it has stupendous OSX support. 17:35:45 beach , actually, i don't remember. i think i looked into common lisp, but had some difficulty finding an easy way to get it onto the mac. 17:36:01 lighterthanair: You should have come here first, then. 17:36:06 kami-`, it calls copy-one which seems to do so 17:36:06 so yes, I think it is deep and you will need to customize it 17:36:11 that's why it is layered 17:36:14 wait. i do remember. googling common lisp right now. common lisp needed macports and i was scared of macports. 17:36:15 lighterthanair: http://trac.clozure.com/openmcl It includes an IDE. 17:36:28 beach: Will 1990 era scheme code work with R5RS? My earlier question should have been directed at you. 17:36:28 it could certainly be better customizable though 17:36:45 (there's a .dmg on that page) 17:36:53 beach & sykopomp , the todo list to get common lisp (at the time) seemed longer than the todo list to get scheme. 17:37:11 hopefully, this has resolved that issue. 17:37:16 tmh: No idea! My experience with Scheme is that you can't do very much unless you use implementation-specific extensions. 17:37:22 lighterthanair: Clozere CL also has good support for Objective C and Cocoa 17:37:48 lighterthanair: On the other hand, you don't get any help from #scheme. 17:38:15 beach: Ok, thanks. It's a ACM Sigplan Notice and the scheme code looks pretty vanilla, so I'll just blindly forge ahead. 17:38:23 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 17:38:23 beach , i'm beginning to think that maybe #scheme and #lisp have a healthy rivalry going... 17:38:34 lighterthanair: no one said it was healthy. 17:38:45 lighterthanair: leave out the # 17:38:49 ah. 17:38:51 lighterthanair: Mostly, #lisp considers #scheme as non-existing I would think. 17:38:52 I mean. Needless to say, CL is better. 17:39:02 adlai, why leave out the #? 17:39:11 why is cl better? 17:39:20 The standardized one? 17:39:22 lighterthanair: Common Lisp vs Scheme. Old feud. Based on the fact that scheme isn't nearly as good or useful. 17:39:26 but it's a cute toy. 17:39:30 tmh: Then R5RS should do. 17:40:04 lighterthanair: I was a Scheme programmer for some 15 years, but gave up on it. 17:40:36 beach, why? 17:40:47 beach: you ? for 15 years ? 17:41:26 clozure has a dmg. i can't believe it. do you know what i went through to get scheme on my system? jfc. 17:41:36 lighterthanair: I was forced to choose between implementation-specific extensions (and two of the implementations I worked with got abandoned) and programming essential stuff (like object orientation) myself. 17:42:00 lighterthanair: Clozure CL is an open-source fork of Macintosh Common Lisp, from way back. It grew up on the mac. 17:42:01 fe[nl]ix: Yeah, 15 years sounds right. 17:42:16 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:19 i have to get back to work. ty for all your assistance. 17:43:21 fe[nl]ix: Read my essay on the psychology of programming some time. The "language" I missed out on was CL and the "feature" was CLOS. 17:43:30 lighterthanair: ywlcm 17:43:35 wait. where's your essay, beach? 17:43:58 and what does ywlcm mean? 17:44:01 wait. oh. 17:44:17 lighterthanair: I am making fun of you for using "ty" for "thank you". 17:44:23 yes. i got that. 17:44:36 but u culd have just used yw. 17:44:40 er, something like http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Essays/psychology.html 17:44:52 alright. tx again. 17:44:55 toodles. 17:44:58 -!- lighterthanair [n=lightert@38.105.245.18] has left #lisp 17:45:03 you wrote that? 17:45:20 sandin [i=lalalal@180-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:32 -!- sandin [i=lalalal@180-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has left #lisp 17:45:47 sykopomp: As I recall, yes. 17:45:55 beach: I love that essay. Thank you for writing it :) 17:46:06 Thanks! 17:46:42 tcr: which conjugation / case is serpendem? Shouldn't it be the gerondive (whatever the name in english), which looking at the verb might be serpendum ? 17:46:57 beach: which dead implementations were you using? 17:47:15 Fare: lessee, Elk was one. 17:47:33 Fare: I also used Guile for a while. 17:48:04 Fare: Elk is definitely dead. Guile turned out to be just too slow. 17:48:42 beach: very interesting paper! thank you for linking that. 17:49:08 Fare: The problem was that, in order to get speed out of these things, you had to write extensions in C, and then you depend on specifics of the implementation. 17:49:24 Adlai: Oh, thanks very kind. Thanks! 17:50:08 Fare: I might have used SCM (A Guile predecessor) as well at some point. 17:50:17 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:50:54 levy: I'll try after getting sth to eat. brb. 17:51:11 Elk was nice in many ways, but totally unoptimized 17:51:20 beach: I talked to my fiancée about it once I'd read it (she's a teacher), and she told me that it sounds very similar where certain kinds of students (internally motivated) believe success is based on skills developed, and failure on bad luck, vs externally motivated ones that believe success is based on luck (or some kind of lucky natural ability), and failure is their own fault. The first kind tends to be very interested in trying 17:51:20 new things, and feels fine about failing. The second is terrified by new things (I got lucky with that one skill...), and is destroyed by failure (so they don't risk it). 17:51:27 Guile is a bit better, but not that much. 17:51:37 hm. More text than I expected, sorry about that. 17:52:05 is there already a library for initializing and deinitializing a tree of services that depend on each other? 17:52:18 if not, I feel like writing one for qres 17:52:20 Fare: it's accusative, although AFAIK serpendem is incorrect - should be serpentem(from serpens) and the rule is that #\s becomes #\t 17:52:48 fe[nl]ix, I think it's the verb, not the noun, so serpendum 17:53:24 right 17:56:33 is the behavior of makunbound of a locally bound special guaranteed to be well-defined? 18:00:05 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:05:35 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:06:01 elurin`` [n=user@88.224.109.87] has joined #lisp 18:06:40 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:07:55 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:57 sykopomp: That sounds right, yes. 18:07:58 -!- Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 18:08:12 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.102] has joined #lisp 18:08:25 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-lkksxlpjftypucxy] has joined #lisp 18:08:55 -!- peddie [n=peddie@TEP.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:09:46 sykopomp: Psychologists are not in agreement about terminology, and in fact, I modified it a bit for my essay, but it sounds similar to perfection/performance orientedness. 18:10:06 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has quit ["Valete!"] 18:10:08 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633767.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 18:11:02 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:11:06 Fare: My point is that it is easy to know these things in hindsight, but when you have to choose, the risk of choosing the wrong thing is very high. 18:12:59 Fare: with Common Lisp, I can write nearly all my code in almost totally portable Common Lisp. That feels like a much better investment, and experience shows that my feelings are well founded. 18:13:24 I'll check -current and send a patch in some hours, but ecl's bundled CLX needs a name-change to compile. dependent.lisp sets ext:*interrupt-enable* , now known as ext:*interrupts-enabled* 18:14:32 -!- coyo [n=alex@144.162.133.168] has quit ["sudo nmap -A -PN localhost"] 18:14:32 beach: specially considering the recent bickering in the scheme community. 18:16:10 good morning 18:16:46 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.229.111] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:17:57 schme: Did you change time zones? 18:18:34 levy [n=levy@89.223.229.111] has joined #lisp 18:18:35 beach: no. got swine flu, woke up just a bit ago. going back to sleep after some food and random internetting. 18:18:47 sykopomp: I haven't been following it very much, but I am not surprised that there would be fundamental differences between people wanting to make it useful and people who want to keep it simple. 18:18:54 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:18:58 schme: Ouch! 18:19:08 oh the R6 wars (: 18:19:46 dacoda [n=user@clientssh2.rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 18:19:54 *sykopomp* is banking on Common Scheme. PLT will be responsible for all the bizarre cruft. 18:19:59 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 18:20:30 common scheme ??? 18:20:36 It's a bit like rock groups and their fans. The wisdom is "don't change your style if you want to keep your fans". But it's OK to form a different group. 18:20:48 danlei [n=user@pD954FB02.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:57 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:03 So they should have called it something other than Scheme. 18:21:07 and common common lisp for unifying all lisps 18:21:10 hence clojure having more of a future than r7rs? 18:22:31 Fare: fe[nl]ix is wrong, serpendem is supposed to be the accusative of the gerund of serpendere 18:22:40 guaqua: you made my head explode 18:23:02 Err actually I may be wrong 18:23:04 Fare: It's funny because I can't tell whether you're poking fun at r7rs, clojure, or both. 18:23:05 newSCHEME 18:23:14 schme: i'm sorry :) 18:23:15 ISScheme! 18:24:01 well, there /was/ an m at the end :) 18:24:04 -!- elurin` [n=user@88.254.107.237] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:24:18 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:24:48 Anyway, I can see the attraction of Scheme for people who want to do research in areas like program transformations, and those are exactly the ones that are going to protest if you want to turn Scheme into something useful for real programming projects. 18:25:04 -!- demmel1 [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:25:06 Fare: Bah I indeed mixed up the class of declination of gerunds 18:25:39 Plus, the people who might have wanted Scheme to be more useful (like me) probably already converted to CL. 18:25:43 coyo [n=alex@144.162.133.168] has joined #lisp 18:30:50 Fare: actually it's supposed to be a particple not a gerund 18:32:25 participle present? 18:32:42 (but it declines the same, doesn't it?) 18:33:02 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:33:35 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 18:33:46 no it declines as the consonant declination, but fe[nl]ix was still right that it must be a t not a d 18:33:49 serpentem 18:34:07 milanj [n=milan@79.101.251.174] has joined #lisp 18:34:27 *beach* loves the intellectual level of the discussions on #lisp 18:34:40 I think I first wanted to write Contra serpendum lapsus memoriae, i.e. using the gerund, but that would have meant two genetives in a row 18:34:46 Hmm...let over lambda, interesting book - highly opinionated. 18:35:06 shouldn't it be serpentum then? 18:35:27 ppa is declined as the consontantic declination 18:35:43 tcr: do you have a latin reference? 18:35:44 like rex, regis, etc 18:36:18 demmel [n=Adium@ip-109-85-27-79.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 18:36:27 I actually posses a Great Latinum which means I've gone through 8 years of Latin in school :) 18:36:56 but never minding the argumentum ad authoritatem, yeah I verified it with a reference 18:37:11 elliotstern [n=chatzill@129.21.42.242] has joined #lisp 18:37:21 *Fare* wikipedias the declensions and finds how far that all is 18:38:09 I'd love to study philology as secondary studies, but I can't pay for another fees 18:38:37 Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-5-42.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:38:37 ok for serpentem, then 18:38:39 Fare: This might be the first time "wikipedia" is used as a verb. Be sure to document it. 18:38:55 tcr: I know a guy who learn and teaches over a hundred language at once 18:39:08 at this level, philology takes a whole new aspect 18:39:18 hundred language? 18:39:26 by that you mean what? 18:39:28 Heh that's cool. My previous teacher of ancient greek earned a fortune by writing software to digitalize ancient indian papyri 18:39:46 guaqua: http://www.tonguesinteractive.com/ 18:40:09 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-129-203.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:40:38 the same person has a functional (if far from perfect) knowledge of tens and tens of languages 18:40:45 Fare: I contest that, given that the difference between a language and a dialect is that a language is dialect with an army, a navy, and an air force. 18:41:19 uhm that's not a good definition either 18:41:21 counterexample: Cantonese. 18:41:45 beach: every language has an army -- either its own or the neighbour's 18:41:46 It is a widely-accepted one though. 18:41:59 Fare: OK, it's own. 18:41:59 (incf beach) 18:42:16 I hear a lot of linguists using that army definition. 18:42:25 Huh? It obviously fails for German and the austrian or swiss dialect 18:42:37 It's pretty good though. 18:42:47 Problem with language / dialect is that where you draw the line is totally arbitrary. 18:43:01 -!- demmel [n=Adium@ip-109-85-27-79.web.vodafone.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:43:16 schme: exactly, so governments get to do it, which turns out to be the wrong thing to do. 18:43:24 arbitrary lines do not mean invalid concepts. As for dead/alive, male/female, white/black, etc. 18:43:31 norweigan - swedish ? german - swiss ? 18:43:39 there may be unclear cases, and totally clear cut ones. 18:44:00 None of the linguists I have spoken to seem to find any clear cut ones 18:44:04 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.229.111] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:44:08 scanian - swedish ? 18:44:10 schme: swiss is mostly german just pronounced very weirdly 18:44:33 tcr: english is mostly french just pronounced very weirdly 18:44:47 Fare: the difference between languages and dialects is not clear-cut, and arguments about the matter tend to be minefields for hurting people's feelings. 18:45:01 levy [n=levy@89.223.229.111] has joined #lisp 18:45:04 schme: So for instance (to take an example that interests us both), as long as skånska was considered a dialect, people in Skåne were just speaking "bad Swedish", but if it is considered a language then no such problem exists. 18:45:11 from what I understand dialects of chinese are more different than norweigan and swedish. 18:45:32 scheme - 'Chinese' is not a language; there are no dialects of it. 18:45:34 whoa, next time the CIA wants to torture people, it should tell them that their language is a dialect 18:45:50 beach: I read just last week that scanian was dying out because of all te people from up north coming down here and 'polluting' (: 18:45:54 Fare: it's certainly a way to demean a group of people. 18:46:02 schme: These days I say "I don't speak Swedish, but I understand it". 18:46:21 ayrnieu: Some of my chinese friends disagree with you? 18:46:37 schme: Bah, languages die all the time. Limhamnska died while I was still living there. 18:46:43 schme - don't care. 18:46:59 in the future, everyone will speak english... like chinese men do 18:47:05 beach: We have a student from ostersund living here. She speaks swedish, of course, she has a much easier time understanding norweigan than skanska. Bit funny this with dialects and languages. 18:47:24 beach: I don't see it as much as dying. more evolving. like cultures (: 18:47:32 schme: there's afaik mandarin and you might argue for existence of separate *written* chinese language - it's all down into nuances 18:48:02 p_l - gaah, the written aspect is precisely what would argue strongly in favor of a 'chinese language' with dialects. 18:48:03 p_l: I have no idea really. I have heard there is mandarin dialect and cantonese dialect. 18:48:16 wow, I didn't know this channel changed to a linguist's conference within the past two hours :) 18:48:22 schme: Funny indeed, until you find yourself in an unfavorable position because of the way you speak. 18:48:24 schme: and a dozen more. 18:48:34 Fare: It's easy to draw the line between dialects like American English, British English, Scottish English, Canadian English, and call them all dialects because they have relatively small variations. 18:48:36 lpolzer: I don't think linguists would be stupid enough to get into debating language vs dialect ;) 18:48:50 p_l - the differences are in the spoken language. Cantonese is not 'Mandarin spoken funny', but they mostly share the written language. 18:49:23 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:49:29 schme: These days, when I fear an inferior position wrt a Swedish person who doesn't speak Skånska, I prefer speaking American English. 18:49:34 schme: afaik a certain (not exactly defined) written language is common for all china, but spoken language of someone from south-east coast would be completely different from someone who lives in north-west corner of China 18:49:46 p_l: But it is the same in sweden? 18:49:58 p_l: We have a lady from up north sweden living here. she doesn't understand a word (: 18:50:12 schme: but does she use a completely different language? :) 18:50:24 p_l: Very different phonemes atleast. 18:50:25 p_l: Yes! :) 18:50:32 but then you start talking about Spanish, and you get some variations of Spanish that can, on some extremes, be mutually unintelligible (I've had serious issues with people understanding my Spanish). At the same time, I've been able to (sometimes) have conversation with Brazilian Portuguese speakers, based on my Spanish. Would you call Portuguese a dialect? 18:50:54 I recall even some really old polish novel that used that certain quirk regarding written chinese to use it as common language for mongolian horde spy 18:51:01 Has anyone else read "let over lambda?" Reading the abstract and some parts of the book, I'm a bit not totally sure. 18:51:43 TDT: you killed the channel (: 18:51:53 sykopomp: I think I made that clear. There is no linguistic distinction, only political. 18:51:54 Heck, wasn't there some issue with Catalonian being called a dialect? Try telling that to a Catalonian. That's the fast-track to getting punched in the nose. 18:51:54 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 18:51:54 TDT - yes, it's very good. Some people here have highly opinionated but (at my last viewing) worthless opinions of it. 18:52:18 beach: I agree. Fare seemed skeptical, but I should probably drop it :) 18:52:35 schme: lol why's that? 18:52:47 TDT: well it went all quite there fro a bit. No idea about that there book. 18:52:56 ayrnieu: Yeah, seems to focus on macros a bi tmore, maybe for that it'll be worth it. 18:53:00 following sykopomp, there are dialects of Mandarin, and some of them are famously unintelligible. If you say that Mandarin 'is Chinese', then you can talk about these dialects. But then you have Cantonese. 18:53:10 sykopomp: I have seen a definition such as "people who understand eachother speak the same language", but that definition has the problem of not being an equivalence relation. 18:53:20 TDT: Most (except for some highly opinionated) people here think it teaches unidiomatic Common Lisp 18:53:31 beach: and it doesn't always follow. There's the scandinavian circle :) 18:53:42 TDT: LOL is fun, but not anything I'd recommend for code you'd want to maintain or share with other people 18:53:43 languages don't need to be -mutually- intelligible. 18:53:50 plenty of clever kludges 18:54:13 TDT - contra tcr, nobody fails to see that it's pretty much alone in its advocacy for some unimportant side-notes like *earmuff-less* special variables. 18:55:34 sykopomp: I can understand the Trondheim accent (in Norway, thanks to the Hanseatic league), but I cant understand the dialect of Dalarna (in the country of which I am a citizen). 18:55:34 Every book can benefit from the benefit of context and extra-book experience. Some books are more harmful than others in the absence of that context and experience. 18:55:36 ah, so in short I should expect this book to be mostly entertaining and likely little help in becoming a better Lisp developer. 18:55:42 TDT - the aim of the book is against the 'stylistic aphorisms' listed in http://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/guest/chap1.html ; "If when considering macros you find yourself relying on stylistic aphorisms like ... you are probably missing the big picture when it comes to macro programming. That is what this book hopes to fix.' 18:56:33 -!- borism [n=boris@195.50.199.134] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:57:43 It probably makes sense for him to write "Mastering macros is the final step to graduating from an intermediate lisp programmer to a lisp professional." in his book, but in real life, that's hogwash 18:58:22 hah, yeah. I will admit I know macros very poorly, in general, but yeah it's deifnitely not the end-all-be-all. 18:58:26 well you can put a lot into 'mastering' 18:58:37 varjag: Yeah that's what I just wanted to add :) 18:59:01 "finding a customer or employer to pay you is the final step to graduating from an intermediate lisp programmer to a lisp professional" 18:59:58 heh 19:00:02 I've gotta be with Fare here. 19:00:08 Macros don't seem to be nearly that much of a big deal :) 19:00:34 cads [n=max@adsl-158-247-81.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:35 I wish there was more Lisp stuff here, in Iowa...yeah...we can't even embrace Python/Ruby in this technological pit. 19:01:06 but if you intend to write a book, you should learn this from LoL: don't just open your chapters in order. You expose the dorky salesmanship, and get reactions purely on that, before you expose 19:01:17 well, chapter 5. 19:01:22 TDT: you can embrace it -- just don't advertise it. 19:01:31 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-242.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:01:51 Fare: by embrace, I mean companies using it. I hope my presentation on CL goes well in 2 weeks 19:02:18 at ILC2009, there was this guy who used ABCL (I think) to develop applications to help middlewest farmers determine how much insecticide to use or not use on their crops 19:02:21 Fare: Going to a conference, in iowa, and presenting on Lisp. NOt sure how much turnout I'll get, but 6m ago I did Python and had a really high turnout to the presentation. 19:02:48 you can find the name of the guy in ILC2009 pages... 19:02:53 It was an extremely old, ugly, useful, and successful application. 19:03:14 Fare: That was a good talk. Your customers don't care what language it's written it. Just get it writ. 19:03:24 *Xach* liked it 19:03:34 TDT: Lie in the presentation title. "I know the title says ruby/python/whatever, but I'm presenting lisp." 19:04:07 tmh: lol, yeah, although it'd have to be Java or C# there...ruby, python isn't used much in Iowa. 19:04:24 TDT: Whatever it takes. ;-) 19:04:24 Like handfull of places use Python, one I know of uses ruby (my current employment) 19:04:59 Will ILC presentations be put online? 19:05:01 videos, that is 19:05:24 TDT: probably not 19:05:25 CARMA: Platform Freedom for a Graphical Lisp Application through Armed Bear Common Lisp, John D. Hastings and Alexandre. V. Latchininsky 19:06:03 Fare: That's unfortunate..I wish more conferences would do it. 19:06:59 the person who has the tapes has no time to publish them 19:07:20 if you find someone committed to publishing them, you could possibly persuade him to put the rushes online 19:08:19 Is that chapter 1 of LoL a satirical intro to macros? What a style: "the age of the macro is coming, whether the world is ready or not" ! 19:09:04 stassats, hey ,l and ,b is really nice .. kudos ... :) i've tried to use emacs' desktop-save-mode lately, but that didn't actually seem to work very well at all 19:09:20 kami - no. If you want a summary of what the book's actually about, I just quoted it. 19:09:31 lnostdal: ,l is load-system, stassats added open-system 19:10:02 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 19:10:04 ohyeah, i meant open-system 19:10:15 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 19:10:24 I still have another thing to quibble about it, but stassats seems not to be here 19:10:49 huh? i'm here 19:10:55 beach: what is the feature avoided for 10 years? 19:11:31 ayrnieu: thank you for the quote. The pathetic style is annoying. 19:11:36 stassats: I think open-system should pop up a buffer in another buffer, letting the original buffer untouched 19:11:36 saikat_ [n=saikat@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 19:11:53 I'd say don't advocate the language as such to a crowd that isn't interested in it 19:12:17 stassats: and the new buffer should show foo.lisp for a system named foo (if that .lisp file exists, otherwise, it should just randonmly display one) 19:12:19 TDT: instead, show what you've done, what you can do, and if they are result-oriented, they will buy the language as part of the process 19:12:31 rouslan [n=rouslan@pool-70-109-151-129.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:47 Fare: I can confirm that 19:12:51 Is it possible to write a basic Lisp interpreter for a TI-84 Plus calculator? 19:12:54 to mcclim hackers out there - has anyone tried to directly map various CLIM elements to native widgets? 19:13:17 plutonas [n=plutonas@92.195.19.62] has joined #lisp 19:13:37 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@129.21.42.242] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:15:03 rouslan: depends how much functionality you want... 19:15:13 CL with 24k of ram would be rather hard... :P 19:15:29 *splittist* starts typing /sayoonara... 19:15:34 -!- splittist [n=David@85.4.220.156] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 19:15:34 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.22.215] has joined #lisp 19:15:44 p_l: "a basic lisp" 19:17:21 I believe miniPicoLisp *might* fit 19:19:33 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 19:19:38 danlei` [n=user@pD954FB02.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:45 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954FB02.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:19:48 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 19:22:05 -!- rouslan [n=rouslan@pool-70-109-151-129.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 19:22:46 rouslan, sure it's possible. Will be limited nonetheless. Maybe you rather want a cross-compiler that dumps TI84 code for you. Do you have access to assembly? 19:25:05 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 19:25:08 http://tibasicdev.wikidot.com/assembly says it's Z80. You can probably find a Z80 lisp somewhere. 19:26:20 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:31 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:27:38 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 19:27:46 (or is it 68k? the page isn't very clear.) 19:29:30 am i missing something, or does drakma have no support for timeouts outside LispWorks? 19:30:38 I think we use timeouts here at ITA on CCL 19:30:49 don't remember if that affects drakma 19:31:01 but it affects other ediware 19:31:13 i see 19:31:17 last I heard, SBCL wasn't supported, though 19:31:50 Fare: ..by drakma? 19:32:00 by the timeouts 19:32:07 ah 19:34:22 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:34:42 francogrex [n=user@91.180.244.70] has joined #lisp 19:37:51 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-69-181-124-97.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:51 -!- coyo [n=alex@144.162.133.168] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:37:52 elliotstern [n=chatzill@67.240.162.85] has joined #lisp 19:39:40 tcr: it now does this 19:42:21 Jini [n=pidgin@62.148.157.140] has joined #lisp 19:43:23 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:43:51 -!- Jini [n=pidgin@62.148.157.140] has left #lisp 19:46:41 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-69-181-124-97.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:46:47 Fare: I'm guessing the exact terminology in this context is s/timeout/deadline/, and the difference between SBCL and CCL is that CCL has per-socket deadlines, whereas SBCL only has global ones, which might interrupt the wrong thing 19:46:49 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-51-234.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:47:12 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:49:57 levy, has defresources been renamed? 19:50:33 kami-`, no, but the definer has been 19:50:44 defresources is a bad name 19:50:55 drag [n=user@82.113.106.144] has joined #lisp 19:51:09 hello 19:51:31 I have a stream. I want to compress and encrypt that stream. 19:51:49 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229145187.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 19:51:51 -!- quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:51:54 Should I first encrypt it and them compress it or the other way around? 19:52:08 we use def localization now 19:52:12 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 19:52:21 drag: I've only ever heard of the other way around. 19:52:59 nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 19:53:25 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@188-23-186-40.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:54:03 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 19:54:18 -!- drag [n=user@82.113.106.144] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:54:21 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@93-82-15-73.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:54:30 drag [n=user@82.113.106.144] has joined #lisp 19:54:32 m4dnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 19:55:09 Encrypted data is uncompressible, unless the encryption is utterly broken. 19:55:38 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:55:49 drag: I can help you with the compressing with salza2! 19:55:58 foom: but compressing helps encryption. 19:56:52 yes. so always compress before encrypting. :) 19:57:02 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["back later"] 19:57:10 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.102] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:57:21 because encryption encrease the entropy? 19:57:23 TLS has builtin compression 19:57:36 you can just turn that on, instead of doing two separate layers 19:58:18 thank you 19:59:27 foom: so stupidly bad encryption can be detected by measuring stream compression ratios? (: 20:00:11 antifuchs: given that the vast majority of bitstreams are uncompressible, probably (: 20:00:20 hah 20:00:40 -!- nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has left #lisp 20:00:56 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:32 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 20:03:13 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit ["leaving"] 20:03:33 levy: since I switched to the new code base and new emacs init files, the numbers of the restarts in sldb are sorted in descending order. How can I change that? 20:03:45 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-8-21.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:04:36 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-114.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:05:07 kami-`: that's a feature of our slime branch. the reason is that this way restarts are not renumbered, so you can rely on pressing 3 will issue the retry-rendering restart always 20:05:25 -!- fe[nl]ix changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: trivial-features 0.6, CMUCL 20a, ABCL 0.16.1, SBCL 1.0.31, Osicat 0.6.0, CFFI 0.10.5, Hunchentoot & Drakma 1.0.0, usocket 0.4.1, yason-0.1, series 2.2.10. 20:05:55 nyquist [n=quassel@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 20:06:47 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 20:07:06 -!- holly_ [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:07:09 rvirding [n=chatzill@h60n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:07:41 holly_ [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:07:57 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust936.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 20:08:05 kami-`: you may try to unpull this patch if it is really annoying: "Assign id's to restarts in sldb in such a way that older restarts are assigned a lower id. As a result of this the restarts registered earlier (things like "Kill thread") will always get the same id and key shortcut." 20:09:32 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 20:12:00 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d067ed8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:15:39 attila_lendvai: hmmm. I haven't looked at it this way. Will try it out for a short while, before deciding. 20:15:39 thank you. 20:15:48 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.221.181] has joined #lisp 20:17:57 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 20:18:20 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has quit [] 20:18:23 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@67.240.162.85] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 20:18:53 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@32.154.230.205] has joined #lisp 20:19:50 nvoorhies__ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:20 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:20:20 -!- nvoorhies__ is now known as nvoorhies 20:21:57 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:21 kami-`, wow, a flexible guy 20:24:14 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-117-28.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 20:25:02 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:25:05 attila_lendvai: I'd be interested in that patch 20:26:13 saikat__ [n=saikat@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 20:26:21 attila_lendvai: I must leave now, would be cool if you could drop a mail with that patch. thanks 20:26:26 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:28:04 levy: heh 20:28:22 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@32.154.230.205] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:31:18 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954FB02.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:31:57 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:33:18 levy, attila_lendvai: I have finished porting the model part of my app to the new code base and have come to recreate-model-data. Can I keep it as it is? 20:34:56 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@99.13.242.166] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:35:07 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.229.111] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:37:01 levy [n=levy@89.223.229.111] has joined #lisp 20:37:16 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:37:28 saikat_ [n=saikat@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 20:40:30 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 20:40:48 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@99.13.242.166] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:42:04 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@89.134.66.153] has joined #lisp 20:42:18 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:42:28 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 20:42:51 quick sbcl question: does the implementation provide semaphores or would I need to write my own? 20:43:14 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:20 drgnvale: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Semaphores.html (-: 20:43:40 not sure if it uses posix semaphores, but the interface is very similar 20:43:54 Thanks, I appreciate it :) 20:46:49 -!- saikat__ [n=saikat@99.13.242.166] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:48:51 drgnvale: don't use semaphores! Use channels! 20:48:52 :D 20:48:58 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:49:33 -!- drag [n=user@82.113.106.144] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:49:44 drag [n=user@82.113.106.144] has joined #lisp 20:50:29 Is that a library, or a concept I slept through in my undergrad OS class? 20:50:41 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:50:44 drgnvale: both? 20:51:05 By that I mean do you have a particular library you're recommending 20:51:35 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@63.107.91.99] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:51:39 you have three to choose from: csp, ChanL, and calispel. 20:51:42 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:51:48 -!- cads [n=max@adsl-158-247-81.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:51:50 ChanL is my own 20:52:23 cliki.net/chanl, cliki.net/csp, and cliki.net/calispel 20:53:01 Thanks, reading the readme now 20:54:07 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:55:35 Adlai [i=54e481ea@gateway/web/freenode/x-bzwpozibvycoliih] has joined #lisp 20:56:00 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 20:56:18 peddie [n=peddie@c-98-210-236-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:03 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.180.244.70] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:57:40 -!- didi [n=user@189-68-56-226.dsl.telesp.net.br] has left #lisp 21:00:30 kami-`, I've just updated live, some work has been done on filters 21:00:58 actually you can search for classes based on their name and/or documentation 21:01:05 and navigate the results 21:01:21 see Source / Class Browser 21:02:48 the appearance is pretty bad now 21:03:14 levy, thanks. Will check that tomorrow. Have you read my question regarding recreate-model-data? 21:03:31 no 21:03:45 mail or irc? 21:04:03 -!- morphling [n=stefan@89.15.140.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:04:11 ropert [n=user@CPE00222d12ee72-CM00222d12ee6e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:04:54 quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has joined #lisp 21:05:44 To use an asdf package do I simply have to (require :asdf) and load the ".asd" file? 21:06:18 quidnunc: (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :name-of-library) 21:06:46 quidnunc: you also need to make sure that the asd file is on an the asdf path 21:07:09 or that your cwd is the directory where your .asd is. That works, too. 21:07:48 quidnunc: the usual method is to symlink the asd to an appropriate location (eg: ~/.sbcl/systems) (asdf-install takes care of this) 21:10:38 -!- dacoda [n=user@clientssh2.rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [""Leaving.""] 21:12:36 -!- Adlai [i=54e481ea@gateway/web/freenode/x-bzwpozibvycoliih] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 21:12:59 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.229.111] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:13:20 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.22.215] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:13:32 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.22.215] has joined #lisp 21:14:46 levy [n=levy@89.223.229.111] has joined #lisp 21:16:13 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:16:30 saikat_ [n=saikat@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 21:18:04 cads [n=max@adsl-158-247-81.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:01 -!- cads [n=max@adsl-158-247-81.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 21:19:08 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.156.33] 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#lisp 21:40:58 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:43:07 konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has joined #lisp 21:44:20 -!- saikat__ [n=saikat@99.13.242.166] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:44:33 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.156.33] has joined #lisp 21:47:19 good night 21:47:22 -!- kami-` [n=user@p5B20FF32.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 21:47:46 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:48:33 cipher [i=weinsd0@monica.cs.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 21:48:37 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:53:28 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:57:02 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.251.174] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:57:16 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-5-42.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 21:57:37 -!- dys```` [n=andreas@krlh-5f7342a2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:58:55 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:00:09 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:00:27 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-159-143.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:00:50 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:00:52 X-Scale [i=email@89.180.187.204] has joined #lisp 22:01:12 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:04:27 DekuNut [n=Mor@cpc2-hatf2-0-0-cust550.lutn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 22:04:41 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:05:03 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp076.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:05:44 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:06:00 saikat_ [n=saikat@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 22:06:06 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:09:45 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has left #lisp 22:10:37 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:10:52 -!- quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:13:00 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 22:17:04 schoppenhauer_ [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:17:12 -!- schoppenhauer_ [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:17:26 Do any of you know where one can download R. Scott McIntire's lisp libraries other than in debian repositories? I have a library that depends on his queue library but I've had no luck tracking it down 22:17:50 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:18:27 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has left #lisp 22:18:52 drgnvale: they exist only in debian nowadays 22:19:15 drgnvale: you could download the debs and get the sources from there. 22:19:56 drgnvale: and they're abandoned. half of his libraries don't compile under recent SBCLs mostly because of erroneous type declarations 22:20:07 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:36 -!- Blaay [i=Blay@BSN-143-104-176.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [] 22:22:03 Ugh, this is more trouble than its worth. Thanks 22:23:05 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.156.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:23:17 drgnvale: try cl-containers 22:23:33 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@99.13.242.166] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:25:11 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h60n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.1/20090715083437]"] 22:25:34 rvirding [n=chatzill@h60n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:25:58 Do you know if cl-containers are generally thread safe, and if not do they have a wrapper so that I'm not having to deal with locking myself? I was led to rsm's stuff because it's a third degree dependency for some other queue package that is thread safe. I just didn't want to deal with explicit locks if I could easily avoid it 22:26:03 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h60n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 22:26:58 drgnvale, do you really want to access anything from multiple threads at once? 22:27:05 the very idea of it is not thread safe 22:27:43 there's no possible way you can "plug in" some library and have the result be thread safe. 22:28:37 Sure you can, if the library does all of the locking on its own. I just don't want to have to deal with that; locking is a stupid problem and I hate having to think about it 22:28:52 drgnvale: sorry, lock-based programs don't compose. 22:29:06 it can do ITS locking -- it can't do yours 22:31:09 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86.124.79.217] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:33:26 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:33:55 -!- nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:36:45 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-108-253.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:37:25 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:38:01 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 22:38:50 eldragon [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 22:39:29 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:39:35 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 22:41:18 quidnunc [n=user@70.50.9.51] has joined #lisp 22:43:21 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-51-234.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:43:30 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 22:43:31 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-51-234.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 22:44:31 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:02 saikat_ [n=saikat@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 22:47:57 Aisling [i=ash@blk-89-251-92.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 22:48:10 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:48:42 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 22:48:45 -!- pon][ [n=pon][@h202n2-haes-a12.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:49:23 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:52:29 pjb [n=t@85-169-61-208.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 22:52:36 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-61-208.rev.numericable.fr] has left #lisp 22:52:42 pjb [n=t@85-169-61-208.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 22:53:52 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@99.13.242.166] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:54:55 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:57:23 -!- cads [n=max@adsl-158-247-81.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:58:01 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:58:42 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:58:43 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6E9A7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:45 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 22:59:44 oudeis [n=oudeis@84.228.114.249] has joined #lisp 23:00:52 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["sudo nmap -A -PN localhost"] 23:01:51 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@76.216.21.95] has joined #lisp 23:02:38 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 23:03:59 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-83.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 23:05:55 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-69-181-124-97.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:00 pkhuong: what did you mean with lock based programs don't compose? 23:08:08 that all locking is bad? 23:08:35 its not 'bad', but if you can use a higher level abstraction, you should if possible 23:08:44 Guthur: no, simply that just because two lock-based subroutines taken separately are correct doesn't mean that any composition of these subroutines will also be correct. 23:09:44 pkhuong, ah fair enough, i thought you were using a round about way of saying locking was bad 23:10:57 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:11:05 saikat_ [n=saikat@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 23:15:11 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 23:15:34 gonzojive_ [n=red@171.66.85.154] has joined #lisp 23:15:55 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:15:55 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-73-155.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:58 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:16:09 H4ns1 [n=Hans@87.187.186.230] has joined #lisp 23:17:35 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:19:22 troussan` [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:39 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@87.187.174.241] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:20:37 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:44 saikat__ [n=saikat@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 23:22:54 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633767.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:23:33 -!- troussan` [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:23:55 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:06 lighterthanair [n=lightert@38.105.245.18] has joined #lisp 23:28:32 -!- ropert [n=user@CPE00222d12ee72-CM00222d12ee6e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:29:34 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@99.13.242.166] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:30:56 -!- saikat__ [n=saikat@99.13.242.166] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:32:30 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:32:41 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 23:36:39 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:37:19 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:38:53 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:40:04 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:40:42 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@84.228.114.249] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:41:43 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483D8E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:42:44 slime-repl 23:42:54 ops 23:44:27 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 23:49:30 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@171.66.85.154] has quit [] 23:52:33 -!- drgnvale [n=acristin@209.16.73.144] has left #lisp 23:53:52 -!- asksol [n=ask@212-181-96-82.customer.telia.com] has quit ["Be back later"] 23:55:27 -!- xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:55:43 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@76.216.21.95] has quit [] 23:56:01 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:58:58 lnostdal_ [i=lnostdal@90.149.108.3] has joined #lisp