00:00:12 It's quite likely. GCC is the only front end that still supports C++. 00:00:14 LLVM supports two "C" frontends: clang and gcc. 00:00:28 Apple is putting tons of resources into clang 00:00:38 Yep 00:01:08 they are developing obj-c and c++ frontends in clang as well 00:01:10 Hence the desirability on my part for a Lisp that generates LLVM and has a runtime in LLVM. 00:01:21 I see. 00:01:23 the objc frontend is done. 00:01:27 Pronounced "clang". How stupid. 00:01:29 They have C, Obj-C and some of C++. 00:01:51 pity that, afaik, Apple's Obj-C runtime is the most bloated and slowest one around :P 00:01:54 jcowan: "intricately tied into" actually means "was used in the interrupt-handling path". I'm not kidding. 00:02:03 OS X also already supplies a unified runtime for Obj-C and C++ exception handling. 00:02:23 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 00:02:45 p_1, I think they want it more faster. 00:03:06 Or is that P_l? 00:03:10 someone showed how bad GNUstep runtime was by writing an Obj-C runtime that supported ~80% functionality in 48h 00:03:18 Damn this font. Damn this font to hell! 00:03:24 dsteuber: Papa underscore Lima 00:03:37 Thanks. 00:03:38 p_l: GNUstep and apple's runtimes are not the same thing. 00:03:40 *jcowan* read the HOWTO for adding your own front end to gcc and ran away in horror. I think there are 56 steps, of which only one is actually writing the code. 00:03:50 p_l: are they both the most bloated and slowest ones around? 00:04:04 (I guess that makes sense, they are the only two in existence afaik :P) 00:04:14 dsteuber, copy/paste followed by Meta-U can help 00:04:24 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:04:39 foom: it was something like "Apple's is the biggest, but not necessarily the slowest. GNUstep follows in term of bad code and bloat" :P 00:05:25 I was reading about this before bothering you guys about LLVM. One of the GCC maintainers said something about it not being fun making that hippo dance. 00:05:36 I guess he never saw Fantasia. 00:05:48 Obj-C looks like an interesting language and if someone makes a small runtime library so you could use it without GNUstep or OSX it would be nice... 00:06:03 p_l: the gnustep objc runtime really is rather tiny... 00:06:11 p_l: it's already separated from gnustep itself 00:06:18 foom: hmm... nice 00:06:25 GNUStep is the original or closer to the original than the current version Apple uses. 00:06:25 I'll have to take a look sometime 00:06:42 NSObject is always the root of all evil. 00:06:52 but yeah, unfortunately gnustep doesn't have many of the nice things Apple has added to the language more recently. 00:07:09 *p_l* isn't really that interested in developing for apple hardware 00:07:24 Well Apple released a compiler patch and a spec. The source to NSObject and family, not so much. 00:07:29 I only know one person that uses OSX and maybe two people with iPhone... 00:07:42 The only ObjC program I've ever written was for GNUstep. 00:07:50 GNUStep with GC, at that. 00:07:54 I got the iPhone because the SDK came out and it looked shiny. 00:07:58 p_l: where do you live? 00:08:20 (rather unfortunate, since I don't think anyone actually cares if that remains working, and I doubt it actually does) 00:08:21 gonzojive: right now in Aberdeen, UK 00:08:22 The only Cobol program I've ever written was for TOPS-10 and implemented Finger. 00:08:44 Xcode is the least painful way to do iPhone development. Unless you love Flash anyway. 00:08:48 jcowan: cool, COBOL is on my "todo" list :P 00:09:05 Finger was the first thing I implemented in Java. 00:09:13 Sort of ironic. 00:09:15 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 00:09:22 It's a cool protocol, and what's more, it's the same as Gopher and Whois, modulo a few details. 00:09:52 A lot of them are the same. HTTP & SMTP for example. 00:10:13 FTP is a bit of a beast though. 00:10:25 No, I mean *really* the same. 00:10:26 Never got through reading the spec(s) on that one. 00:10:27 there's a RFC about a base design for internet protocols 00:10:47 Oh. Yeah. I get what you mean. 00:10:47 it's kinda like template used by IMAP/SMTP/HTTP etc. 00:11:08 Whois is only about 12 lines in Java. 00:11:23 I forget exactly. 00:11:33 FullMetalHarlot [n=root@96.52.229.229] has joined #lisp 00:11:34 Is there a way to give one imported package preference over another in defpackage, so that i don't have to explicitly resolve every ambiguity 00:11:40 For a while, I had a Whois page on my web server. 00:12:03 Then someone started hammering the bejesus out of it so I took it down. 00:12:05 Guthur: no. 00:12:25 Xach: cheers 00:12:35 Guthur: i wrote a small function to show me all the conflicts between two packages so i could use that to guide which to shadowing-import. 00:12:44 i use that from time to time 00:13:09 fe[nl]ix: on a nonblocking, closed socket, if you call read() repeatedly will it repeatedly return 0? Or is that a one-time thing? 00:13:23 gonzojive: repeatedly 00:13:39 Xach: thanks 00:13:39 gonzojive: only once. Therafter it'll return an error. 00:13:49 eek 00:14:01 foom knows better than me. 00:14:04 "Send one line, get back whatever; when the other end closes, that's it." 00:14:30 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:15:00 I vaguely remember getting into a busy loop by not taking a closed socket fd out of the select set or something. Must have been a different situation. 00:15:32 Xach is correct too. 00:15:35 It depends on the situation 00:15:40 OK. If I come up with something Lisp related for LLVM, I'll broadcast again. Cheers, folks. 00:15:53 dsteuber: Try "lynx gopher://web.mit.edu:79/0help", which produces the same thing as a Web page that "finger help@mit.edu" does 00:15:56 He already gave one answer, so I gave the other. :) 00:16:01 foom: under what situations does it error? 00:16:08 Doesn't work in Firefox for some reason. 00:16:24 hmm not sure about iolib but read(2) should return -1 and set errno to EBADF 00:16:37 if the socket is closed already 00:16:45 foom, Xach: I can't seem to find a specification with an answer to this. man read and man recv don't really talk about closed sockets. do you have ideas? 00:16:54 phadthai: that's closed on the local side; I assume we're talking about closed on the remote side. 00:16:59 gonzojive: nonblocking and closed locally? 00:17:04 *Xach* was also assuming that 00:17:09 foom: yes, closed on the remote side 00:17:17 dsteuber: It's not a backend, but I should have a LLVM interface for CL published in a day or two. 00:17:19 or to be more precise: shutdown but not closed. 00:17:32 gonzojive: APUE covers it, and I think gives references too. 00:18:14 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-235.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:18:21 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has left #lisp 00:18:27 Xach: could you take it one step further and make a macro that would produce the effect, pass the usual package details and then a preference between two or more libs, my knowledge of macro-fu is very limited though 00:18:35 probably not worth the effort either 00:18:40 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-64-11.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:18:44 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:18:59 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 00:19:32 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:19:35 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 00:19:50 Xach: Advanced Programming in the Unix Environment = APUE? 00:19:55 Guthur: Hmm, I'd have to re-read the spec to see if it is possible and straightforward. 00:19:58 gonzojive: yes 00:21:20 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:21:23 hmm ok yes I assume it'd return 0 at least once then once remote close is detected 00:21:27 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 00:21:47 Xach: I may have misspoken: it might be that it only errors once (if the connection closed with RST), and will therafter return 0. 00:22:03 Or else the behavior differs by platform. :) 00:22:18 i think djb also has a page on the topic 00:22:26 including some example platform differences 00:22:40 -!- xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:23:17 -!- authentic is now known as autopraise 00:23:22 -!- autopraise is now known as authentic 00:25:27 fade [i=fade@vader.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 00:26:41 it is proper to make sure you stop on the first 0 if that FD might ever be connected to a tty 00:27:10 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:13 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:27:27 -!- dsteuber [n=david@c-68-37-230-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Going AFK. TTYL, BBFN."] 00:27:36 *kpreid* wishes EWOULDBLOCK was 0 and EOF was an error...it would make programming simpler 00:28:29 -!- jeti [n=jeti@p548EBEC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 00:30:01 foom: on my machine(linux 2.6.29) read() returns 0 repeatedly, with loopback connections and internet connections 00:30:55 -!- jlf` [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:32:51 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 00:32:59 ... wtf: This address uses a network port which is normally used for purposes other than Web browsing. Firefox has canceled the request for your protection. 00:33:00 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:33:12 HET2 [n=diman@80.3.31.126] has joined #lisp 00:33:20 what port ? 00:33:33 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:33:42 79 00:34:38 I tried feeding that gopher url to firefox, but I never expected *that* reaction 00:35:15 One hopes that there's an "uncancel" button. 00:35:16 gopher usually used 81 I think, but ff >1.5 dropped gopher support if I remember 00:35:41 surely ff can still optionally connect to any specified port 00:35:50 -!- seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:36:21 gopher used 70 00:36:28 and my 3.1 still has gopher support 00:36:33 *3.1b4 00:36:42 ah true, /etc/services confirms :) 00:37:04 ah well nice that they didn't drop it yet then, as I remember it was in the plans 00:37:04 -!- aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:37:33 redblue [i=star@ppp111.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:38:28 phadthai: maybe they were looking for an explanation for rewriting the browser in JS ;-) 00:38:36 :)) 00:38:58 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 00:40:26 *gah* .. isn't part of the point of having multiple frames (Emacs) an ability to have multiple viewports to the same buffer? .. every time slime pops up a condition window the cursor position in one of the two frames gets set back to what the other frame is .. 00:40:44 lnostdal: yup. emacs does that. 00:41:05 ... Is SB-LUTEX ever set when SB-THREAD isn't? 00:41:17 there's only one cursor position per buffer, unless the buffer is *visible* in multiple frames 00:41:19 -!- male_terran [n=terran@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:41:46 one model --> multiple views! 00:42:00 ..and each view keeps track of its own cursor position etc. 00:42:48 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h52n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:43:04 well, i find needing one point more often then several points 00:43:34 I find it a pain in the ass since so many emacs things "helpfully" reuse an existing view 00:43:40 and thus discard your extra point. :( 00:43:53 just open two emacses! 00:44:17 is SBCL going to fully transition from CVS at some point? it seems like a lot of the devs are using git and then exporting patches 00:44:30 gonzojive, use the git mirror(s) 00:44:47 gonzojive, http://git.boinkor.net/gitweb/sbcl.git 00:44:54 lnostdal: that wasn't the question, i guess 00:45:08 ..you'll find slime there too btw. 00:45:12 stassats`, true 00:45:14 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@85-250-138-88.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:46:45 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 00:47:40 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@209.131.62.113] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:49:53 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-73-155.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:13 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-129-134.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:52:26 (..i missed the "fully" part..) 00:53:45 lnostdal: yeah, I have seen the clones. it just seems inconvenient to export patches to CVS, commit them to CVS, then wait for them to propagate. 00:53:47 Sikander: FFT working better now? 00:54:08 and CVS is pretty lame compared to git 00:54:13 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 00:54:14 -!- kenpp [n=kenpp@188-221-10-184.zone12.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:54:17 -!- disumu [n=disumu@84.188.232.202] has quit ["..."] 00:54:54 gonzojive: I expect that it might happen at some point, but am not holding my breath. 00:55:49 Honestly, given the existence of git mirrors, the choice of primary source control is solely the concern of the people with commit access to the repository. 00:56:30 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-105-21.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:54 I suppose 00:58:22 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 00:58:55 *nyef* ponders SB-EXT:SAVE-LISP-AND-GO-ON. 00:59:18 is it practical? 00:59:23 Maybe. 00:59:45 transparent fork and die? 00:59:54 No, without a fork. 01:00:00 Why bother? 01:00:10 LispOS, maybe? 01:00:14 Point. 01:00:21 Oh! And windows doesn't have fork. 01:00:39 I thought it had at least a half-baked fork? 01:01:03 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 01:01:06 Not really. That's more a cygwin thing. 01:01:17 At least, as far as I remember. 01:01:40 I guess that cygwin does its own object book keeping explaining part of the slowliness 01:01:56 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:03:03 ayrnieu_ [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.154] has joined #lisp 01:05:42 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 01:05:45 nyef: sort of a persistent core checkpoint? 01:05:50 It looks like there are three parts to making SLAD survivable. First is making the unbinding of every bound variable on the stack reversible. Second is preserving the values of the current catch and unwind-protect blocks. Third is making sure that the gencgc stuff (closing out the current alloc region and updating the page tables) is either survivable or recoverable. 01:06:34 *Xach* doesn't want an obsolete shirt 01:06:34 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-64-11.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:06:38 would a JVM backend for SBCL be feasible or are there overwhelming assumptions in SBCL that would make it more difficult than to just write a whole new implementation? 01:06:42 nyef: fourth is making the the final GC not discard stuff only pointed to from the stack? 01:06:51 foom: Oh, right. 01:06:52 gonzojive: basically impossible 01:07:08 Still, these are -fixable- assumptions. 01:07:13 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:07:26 gonzojive: however, there is a CL implementation for the JVM: ABCL 01:08:28 The other approach, which might be amusing, would be the classing Smalltalk "system tracer". Start from the root set and effectively GC to a file-backed core space. 01:08:35 s/classing/classic/. 01:08:39 nyef: also, I think doing that conflicts with the desire to have noncontiguous heap: you'd want to rewrite all the pointers as if you have a contiguous heap when writing to a file. 01:09:01 which would be rather destructive to your current program. 01:09:04 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-133-246.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:17 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:09:22 Not if you dump sufficient page-table information for the -loader- to be able to fix it up. 01:09:32 At which point you could just have a post-process consolidator anyway. 01:10:14 ugh -- you don't really want the loader to *have* to do fixups, unless there's a memory space conflict 01:10:16 foom: yeah, it seems best to just hack ABCL instead. it's probably a lot easier to dive into ABCL than the big, hairy monster, SBCL 01:10:55 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:11:03 foom: Right, that would suck. Hence the possibility of an offline utility for doing the fixups on a saved core. 01:11:22 (unless you want to make SBCL generate mostly-relocatable images, like C compilers do. That might be good. :)) 01:11:47 hmm... relocatable, sparse image with support for file-backed heap... now that would be interesting ^_^ 01:12:08 Yeah, it'd be good, right up until you realize that C programs tend not to have data spaces anywhere -near- as tangled as a lisp heap. 01:12:24 does SBCL do any JIT compilation? 01:12:25 yea. 01:12:39 gonzojive: depending on your meaning, you might say yes 01:12:41 gonzojive: not really JIT, but it does compile on the fly 01:12:59 gonzojive: for CLOS code, it does on-the-fly compilation. 01:13:14 i mean mostly optimizing commonly walked code paths 01:13:50 gonzojive: no, no HotSpot there 01:13:57 except for CLOS, where it optimizes (rather, compiles) on first use of certain things, no. 01:14:01 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:14:06 HotSpot optimizer in Sun's JVM is a completely different beast than JIT :) 01:14:20 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:14:29 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 01:14:31 Might be amusing if SBCL -could- do HotSpot style optimization, though. 01:14:42 nyef: yeah, run-time PGO rules! :D 01:14:49 Hell of a job to make it happen. 01:14:59 foom: do you know where to look to get acquainted with CLOS optimizations in SBCL? 01:15:07 MORE FUNDING 01:15:22 nyef: I'd prefer to let someone else do it. I bet LLVM will have that soon. :) 01:15:24 nyef: also, similar stuff for operating on dumped images :-) 01:15:44 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@90.149.103.151] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:15:46 gonzojive: not off the top of my head, sorry 01:15:46 p_l: Similar to what? 01:16:00 is an LLVM backend for SBCL more reasonable? 01:16:45 gonzojive: Maybe. Still a pain to do, as there's no LLVM backend for CMUCL to cadge most of the code from. 01:16:49 I'd like to think so. Nobody's done it yet though. :) 01:16:55 nyef: record profiling data, recompile the image... maybe extra tools to modify the image like rearranging space for code locality... lots of stuff could be done :D 01:17:21 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.221] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:17:24 -!- ayrnieu_ is now known as ayrnieu 01:17:31 *p_l* even recalls someone thinking of pure-lisp SBCL, without C 01:17:58 minion: chant 01:17:59 MORE SCHEMEIZED 01:18:00 p_l: Mmm... I was just noticing recently that even though there seems to be some stuff for splitting out code allocation regions from data allocation regions that there's no support for recording region types in the core file, nor is there anything for splitting the allocation regions out during genesis for the cold-load. 01:18:01 lispos? 01:18:03 i wish some SBCL hackers would right a few tutorials to get going hacking SBCL. I have taken a few stabs at learning what's going on but I think I need examples 01:18:27 gonzojive: Internals hacking? It's more of a mentoring process than anything else. 01:18:38 there's the sbcl-internals wiki 01:18:45 it has a tiny amount of info in it 01:18:50 but it's a nice start 01:18:55 There's also the internals documentation... 01:19:03 stassats`: I was thinking of a DSL that would use SBCL's assembler in which minimal runtime could be written + tools to create binaries 01:19:16 And the mailing list archives, and the blogs and websites of the various maintainers... 01:19:26 also fixing bugs is good for starters too 01:19:47 foom: sbcl-internals is an all right high-level intro, but it does not help you get hacking. i think i need a tutorial 01:20:01 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:20:11 p_l: A no-C-runtime SBCL is a periodic preoccupation for me. 01:20:30 M-. for the rescue 01:20:32 gonzojive: What part do you want to hack on, and to what end? 01:20:44 nyef: even crazier idea - make a way to dump an ELF core that would contain only lisp, without runtime, while putting runtime into "program interpreter" request :-) 01:20:45 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@90.149.103.151] has joined #lisp 01:21:40 p_l: I'll one-up that idea. Do it by prepending a static header block to the existing save-lisp-and-die machinery. 01:21:51 lemonodor fame :) 01:22:31 nyef: so, basically a core file with ELF header and sbcl executable placed as interpreter? :D 01:22:45 p_l: Yeah, exactly. 01:22:55 haha :-) 01:22:57 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@77.125.90.36] has joined #lisp 01:23:14 bonus points if you can make the core only have the differences from the sbcl default core. :) 01:23:32 foom: "split" cores would be a boon even without that 01:23:45 Is it acceptable if said differences are created by post-processing a saved core? 01:24:17 nyef: I suspect some people would consider it so. 01:24:35 I don't know, I wouldn't actually use such a thing: with sbcl not having a stable ABI, it wouldn't be much use to me 01:25:13 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-70-158.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:25:25 ...and not that I even care much that SBCL doesn't have a stable ABI. But without having one, being able to write a core that only works with a single compile of SBCL doesn't seem much use at all. 01:26:06 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:26:19 I think it'd be more useful for the case of multiple applications on a single machine. 01:26:25 nyef: i'm not sure what i would like to do at first. if it was reasonable maybe doing minor JIT-like optimizations. 01:26:45 nyef: also porting to ARM/iPhoneOS; maintaining OS X thread support (not sure if that works at the moment); optimizing CLOS 01:27:15 gonzojive: ARM/iPhoneOS is a bit of a waste of time, what with apple not allowing you to run it. 01:27:26 Heh. I was just looking at where I was with the ARM backend today. 01:27:32 sure, you can run it on jailbroken iPhones, but Apple is hell-bent on eliminating those. 01:27:49 nyef: http://icculus.org/fatelf/ 01:29:46 foom: ECL works on the iPhone but I suppose that doesn't compile the code. you could still compile code in SBCL statically and then interpret at run-time 01:30:06 though I guess that would mean writing an interpreter 01:30:18 sbcl already has one 01:30:35 interpreters aren't allowed either 01:30:57 Interpreters aren't allowed? So much for javascript... 01:31:06 nyef: that's correct. 01:31:08 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:14 foom: true, but they don't have any way of knowing really 01:31:15 interpreters that aren't shipped by apple, with the iPhone, are not allowed. 01:31:29 Ah, so it's a "do as I say, not as I do" situation. 01:31:30 gonzojive: and once they do know, they will pull it. 01:31:56 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has left #lisp 01:32:01 it's a "we trust ourselves to correct security issues with our interpreter, and keep it sufficiently sandboxed, but not you" 01:32:16 nyef: is doing CLOS optimizations a good place to start with SBCL? 01:32:32 e.g. if you could embed Python into your app, you could let the user run arbitrary python functions, and do WHO KNOWS WHAT!!!! with your phone 01:33:10 Developing SBCL for the iPhone seems like a lot of wasted effort, to me. Try the PreOS or Android OS instead... 01:33:14 -!- HET2 [n=diman@80.3.31.126] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:33:40 (I say this as someone who has a jailbroken 1st generation iPhone) 01:34:16 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@77.125.90.36] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:34:21 i would only do it if it were not going to take forever, mostly as a learning experience for compiler coding 01:35:53 gonzojive: CLOS optimizations seem to me to be rather involved, and are certainly beyond me, but other people might disagree. 01:36:01 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:23 Then again, I'm not even a particularly heavy CLOS -user-, so what do I know? 01:38:40 -!- FullMetalHarlot is now known as KatrinaTheLamia 01:39:33 Okay, I'm gone for the evening. 01:41:10 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-105-21.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:46:58 SBCL's CLOS optimizations are madness-inducing. 01:47:05 and it's all made worse by the fact that you're implementing a full-fledged MOP on top of all that. 01:47:10 or underneath all that. 01:47:12 WarWeasle [n=brad@98.220.147.93] has joined #lisp 01:47:12 or cooperatively 01:47:16 *sykopomp* brain-splodes. 01:47:24 lol 01:47:35 Hello, anyone know how to call a local C function from embedded ECL? 01:48:25 fe[nl]ix: nice thing 01:48:35 p_l: what ? 01:48:38 fatelf 01:48:52 oh 01:49:17 WarWeasle: you could write a function that calls function you want by pointer, I guess 01:49:17 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:49:32 there's definitely some official way to do that, but I don't remember exactly 01:49:36 oudeis [n=oudeis@95.35.107.47] has joined #lisp 01:49:54 I guess there was something in ECL api to create funcallable symbols from C side 01:49:58 sykopomp: does SBCL ever create multiple versions of a normal lambda based on the types of its bindings? e.g. if it compiles a floating point version and an integer version of a function automatically? 01:50:14 I can use a cl_def_c_function() for void func(void) but there has to be another way... 01:50:50 WarWeasle: why you need another way? 01:50:52 WarWeasle: possibly c-inline might make it easy 01:50:59 gonzojive: *shrug* I don't know. 01:51:23 phadthai: Does c-inline work while it's embedded? 01:51:32 phadthai: Let me try... 01:51:48 gonzojive: I don't think so, but I only looked at disassembled code 01:52:21 as long as the function/file is compiled I think 01:52:34 I suppose you can sort-of get that effect if you inline a the lambda in something where the types of those bindings are known to be ints, floats, etc. 01:52:53 I just don't understand why the cffi doesn't work. 01:53:28 Shouldn't I just be able to do (defcfun "hello" :void (num :int))? 01:54:44 WarWeasle: nope 01:55:00 WarWeasle: you don't have access to symbol table to find function hello 01:55:36 p_l: i feel very small right now. 01:55:40 :( 01:56:25 so you either export necessary symbols into dynamic linker (batshit insane stuff, I don't think there's standard function for that), or you pass function pointers or use whatever api ECL has 01:56:45 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:57:46 I guess I can just make wrapper functions that return ecl_objects. 02:04:45 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:07:38 kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 02:07:38 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:13:19 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 02:14:16 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:14:38 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:24:34 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-133-246.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:26:50 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:30:17 Summermute 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#lisp 04:31:57 morning 04:39:29 splittist: Morning. Actually dawn here, but nice to say. :-) 04:39:29 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:40:30 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:41:08 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:42:01 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@91.185.12.110] has left #lisp 04:43:11 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:43:50 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 04:44:32 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-25-207.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:46:02 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:46:54 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:54 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:48:26 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 04:59:03 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 04:59:09 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76.10.149.209] has joined #lisp 05:01:02 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:03:43 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:05:38 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:05:38 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:10:21 gavino_himself [n=tiny@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:11:30 kupad [n=kupad@dsl254-079-179.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:18 ropert [n=user@CPE00222d12ee72-CM00222d12ee6e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:13:34 xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:15:36 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76.10.149.209] has quit [Client Quit] 05:15:58 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:16:49 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-222-139.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:47 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:26:06 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:27:04 ramenboy [n=ramen@ip98-165-139-204.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:49 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-25-207.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:32:55 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:34:05 -!- ropert [n=user@CPE00222d12ee72-CM00222d12ee6e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:34:51 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.154] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:35:48 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:39:12 -!- Dodek_ is now known as Dodek 05:39:53 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:40:01 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 05:41:06 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:42:12 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:43:42 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:43:52 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 05:46:42 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-12-82.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:50 smackarang [n=user@91.190.137.166] has joined #lisp 05:50:57 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 05:51:09 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:52:40 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:53:42 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-25-207.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:57:41 -!- ramenboy [n=ramen@ip98-165-139-204.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit ["woo woo woo woo woo, woo"] 05:58:46 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:59:10 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:03:15 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-14-196.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:03:15 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 06:03:35 mishoo_ [n=mishoo@86-124-79-155.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 06:03:39 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 06:03:53 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229144154.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:04:08 -!- gavino_himself [n=tiny@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:06:35 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:07:46 -!- kupad [n=kupad@dsl254-079-179.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:09:59 -!- mishoo_ [n=mishoo@86-124-79-155.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit ["be back later"] 06:13:43 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-155.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 06:14:25 didi pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88970 06:15:46 Why do my list have a . inside when I use this function? For example, if a run it at (3 4 5) and add 7, I get (3 4 5 . 7). 06:16:27 didi: you must append a list, not a number 06:16:34 didi: try this: 06:16:52 (append mylist (list (or (parse-integer (read-line *query-io*) :junk-allowed t) 0))) 06:16:52 (append '(3 4 5) 7) -> (3 4 5 . 7) 06:18:18 mishoo: Got it. But what the dot means? 06:18:32 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 06:18:41 cons 06:18:41 06:18:46 minion: tell didi about cons cells 06:18:47 didi: does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 06:19:08 :)) 06:19:15 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:19:25 sepult: Hum. The cell thing, right? I remember that, I think. 06:19:41 didi: a cons cell has two values: car and cdr 06:19:48 didi: in a list, the cdr is a pointer to the next cell 06:19:51 didi: have a look on dotted pair too 06:20:53 Man, it's hard for a newbie to think that one don't retain variables value. 06:21:08 sepult: I will. 06:21:09 ok offtobic but anyway i have to say it: grrrr....i would like to 06:21:09 run squeeze's kde in a chroot on lenny... 06:21:14 mishoo: Thank you. 06:21:24 and emacs23 06:26:50 Whom does one contact for clnet admin matters? 06:27:57 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442868.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 06:29:13 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:29:39 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:29:49 clnet keeps classifying my emails as spam, assigning them a deeply negative score 06:32:27 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:32:57 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:33:07 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 06:35:06 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-25-207.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:35:21 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@90.184.205.169] has joined #lisp 06:35:36 -!- fade [i=fade@vader.deepsky.com] has quit ["leaving"] 06:36:12 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:37:54 Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 06:38:18 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:38:21 uh, IIANM, a negative spamassassin score means ham 06:39:19 dspam ftw 06:39:29 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@90.184.205.169] has left #lisp 06:39:34 spamassassin is a nightmare. 06:39:54 well, let's not turn this into an OT spam filtering discussion. 06:40:24 Snowpool: if you really have a clnet question, I think they'd like you to post a trac ticket. 06:40:28 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:40:38 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:40:41 lichtblau: unless it's a discussion about lisp spam filters? :D 06:40:57 tru 06:41:20 I've been up to my elbows in spam related system administration all day. apologies. :) 06:41:39 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:41:55 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:43:13 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:45:42 *p_l* is currently trying to figure wtf happened to dovecot in Debian 5.0 06:46:50 well, i'm taking a long needed sleep break. nite folks 06:48:04 didi pasted "read ints until EOF" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88971 06:48:18 Am I going in the right direction? 06:50:48 Yay. My first named-readtable works. 06:53:25 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:53:29 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:53:40 good morning 06:55:15 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:57:49 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 06:58:19 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-155.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:01:19 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:03:09 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-155.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 07:03:55 galdor [n=galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:34 ASau [n=user@host205-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:07:02 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:09:55 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:09:55 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:10:04 lichtblau, that'd be comforting if it didn't say "possible spam" in headers.. not sure what to make of it. 07:10:09 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 07:10:28 -!- Snowpool is now known as deepfire 07:12:17 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:15:46 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:17:35 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:17:57 Ok, with advent of org-mode the only other thing that I need from emacs, UI-wise, is auto-hiding windows. So that I can have instant, 1-click access to my files via orgmode links, without cluttering the screen. 07:18:06 jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:24:32 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:26:13 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 07:26:14 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:27:08 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-25-207.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:27:38 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:31:43 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:32:10 cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 07:32:23 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:33:20 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:34:04 phadthai_ [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:46 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 07:36:19 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:37:19 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:37:38 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:38:25 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:38:28 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:55 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 07:40:51 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:42:29 who was working on cl-org-mode? 07:42:39 hmm... wasn't it drewc? 07:43:17 what is cl-org-mode? org-mode for climacs? 07:43:51 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-34-203.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:44:04 oh, found something in reddit 07:44:24 -!- jdz_ is now known as jdz 07:46:19 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-155.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:49:06 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-128.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 07:53:36 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:55:23 morphling [n=stefan@89.13.36.153] has joined #lisp 07:55:24 is there a way to determine what packages are currently available 08:00:29 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-73-208.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:02:18 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:02:29 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-128.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:03:33 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 08:04:22 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-78-067.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 08:08:42 mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6FF38.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:17 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:11:58 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:11:58 clhs list-all-packages 08:12:00 this? 08:12:02 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_list_a.htm 08:12:46 Guthur: you could have found out by yourself if you looked at section 11.2 08:15:22 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 08:15:32 jdz you have to know the name of the function to really be able to find it in CLHS, there is alot of symbols after all 08:15:48 Guthur: not really. 08:15:53 clhs 11.2 08:15:54 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 11.2. 08:15:58 i did check practical common lisp package chapter but it didn't mention it 08:16:03 clhs 11.2. 08:16:04 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 11.2.. 08:16:07 meh 08:16:30 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 08:16:39 Guthur: anyway, if you have spent any time at all with CLHS, you'd notice that chapters contain their respective "dictionary" sections 08:17:06 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:17:07 Guthur: so if you want to find a function that's related to packages, you can look into "Packages dictionary" 08:17:08 i go to CLHS with a particular symbol in mind 08:17:20 Guthur: and then there is the permuted symbol index... 08:17:52 kk i see now 08:18:04 Guthur: also try (apropos "package") 08:18:11 or M-x slime-apropos 08:18:20 Guthur: what, you mean you have not read CLHS from start to end? 08:18:37 jdz its not even on my todo list, hhh 08:18:49 its very cryptic 08:19:12 Not at all, you just need to absorb the proper terminology. 08:19:13 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:19:18 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:20 even when i know what a function does it still takes a while to know what it is saying 08:19:31 Guthur: Yeah it'll come with time 08:19:32 Doesn't happen at an instant, and until it does it can be a source of pain, yes. 08:20:39 It'd be nice if there was a use-frequency-sorted ontology. 08:20:55 So that you'd pick up the essential terms first. 08:21:25 Sorta like the kanji grades are organised. 08:21:42 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:22:02 levy [n=levy@89.223.171.129] has joined #lisp 08:22:59 Ironically, though, there is an articulated opinion that frequency-sorting is actually counter-productive to learning kanji.. 08:25:18 I recall an interesting book that was designed only for learning kanji, learning proper meanings later 08:25:45 basically, learn to recognize the symbols and then learn to grasp additional meanings 08:28:10 QinGW3 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:30:03 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 08:30:58 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.171.129] has quit ["..."] 08:31:51 Good morning! 08:31:55 slava [n=slava@69.93.127.154] has joined #lisp 08:31:57 mornin! 08:32:16 pkhuong: you were working on SFMT in CL at some point, right? 08:32:19 levy [n=levy@89.223.171.129] has joined #lisp 08:32:24 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:32:46 pkhuong: did you support big endian platforms? how did you deal with the horizontal shifts? 08:33:52 p_l, interesting, do you remember anything about it? (title, author..) 08:36:29 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 08:36:45 aigon [n=ojof@92.82.65.212] has joined #lisp 08:37:33 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 08:38:34 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:38:45 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:38:52 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 08:39:26 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:41:08 who needs classes when you have closures...hehe 08:41:15 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:41:29 inheritance i suppose 08:41:32 because closures are obnoxious to deal with? 08:42:32 sykopomp you know i'm thinking my over use of them might come to bite me in the ass 08:43:04 i have a terrible habit of over-engineering 08:43:16 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:45:18 Guthur: most likely. 08:45:19 especially when i'm considering having multiple closures over the same lexical environment 08:45:47 hm. Why do you need to do that? (honest question) 08:45:53 deepfire: unfortunately not right now, it was quite well known, though 08:46:35 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 08:46:51 deepfire: the guy who wrote it claims that he based it completely on how he learned kanji, and he claims that he reached his "recognition" goal rather fast (learning all meanings took longer, though) 08:47:38 sykopomp, i'm considering representing game screens as closures, one for display and one for state management ie responding to clicks and so fore 08:47:41 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 08:48:05 its a rather simple game with only a few screens, so i was thinking of just pluging them in as needed 08:48:05 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 08:48:09 and you're having a bunch of "objects" sharing data in a central place? 08:48:48 two central stores, a list of the screens themselves and the current screen 08:49:22 heh. Makes me want to get back to that 2d engine thing I was toying with. 08:49:27 what are you using? 08:49:35 i thinking of having current screen as a list so that i can display two at the same time, so that the menu can come over the game 08:49:44 lispbuilder-sdl 08:49:52 its actually can good 08:49:56 can/quite 08:50:36 Guthur: yeah. It's pretty easy :D I made a little toy shmup with it a while back: http://sykosomatic.org/lisp/level1.ogv (wee, bullets) 08:51:52 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:52:21 cool, if nothing else this project will give me good lisp experience 08:52:45 embrace CLOS. CLOS loves you. 08:52:54 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:53:38 hhh i'm sure, i'm just developing a closure addiction, they are so new and novel for me, its hard to resist the shiny new things 08:53:43 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 08:55:00 CLOS would probably be a more sensible approach 08:56:33 I learned both OOP and FP, at different times, by writing games 08:57:09 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:57:41 -!- QinGW3 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 08:57:46 games are a pretty decent way to learn programming, alot more fun anyway 08:57:55 seangrove [n=user@98.248.37.94] has joined #lisp 08:58:07 must dash, need to get a pen drive 08:58:13 I learned FP by writing something to write OOP with :D 08:58:36 sykopomp, you know i was considering reinventing classes with closures 08:59:00 and hash table for function look up 08:59:13 method even 08:59:13 you know that's a lot slower than real OOP right? 08:59:17 it's not too hard if you're just writing a toy. 08:59:24 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-175-139.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:59:31 slava it was only for fun 09:00:51 anyway later dudes 09:00:55 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 09:02:10 slava: are you showing up on thursday, btw? 09:02:26 is that your presentation? 09:02:31 yeah. 09:02:34 sure, I'll check it out 09:02:57 :) 09:05:47 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:08:10 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:08:33 sykopomp: why are you up so late? :) 09:08:43 slava: more like I woke up too early :\ 09:08:49 heh 09:08:56 can't sleep? 09:09:00 I'm still up :P 09:09:06 should think of going to sleep now though 09:09:14 went to sleep at like 10, and still adjusting my sleep cycle. I keep waking up at 3. 09:09:17 I don't like waking up when its dark :) 09:09:29 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 09:09:37 ditto, but it's better than waking up at 3pm, which is what I was doing before :P 09:09:50 you tried to correct your sleep schedule and overshot? 09:10:09 pretty much. 09:10:23 it'll settle eventually. 09:10:27 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:29 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 09:12:23 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-104-235.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 09:12:23 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:12:25 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 09:14:08 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-25-207.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:16:16 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:18:54 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 09:22:09 -!- seangrove [n=user@98.248.37.94] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:23:43 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:26:26 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:34:37 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:37:08 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:37:14 lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-84-227-76-197.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 09:38:14 I want to generate pretty looking diagrams of directed graphs, preferably zoomable etc, and I'm happy to specify layout information quite precisely (x,y pos). trying to pick an output format. svg, graphviz, postscript, cairo, GUI toolkit. any advice? 09:38:15 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:39:10 well, graphviz has svg, cairo, ps, pdf, png and other backends... 09:39:25 and you can give the exact coordinates to graphviz, too 09:39:29 lukego: graphviz 09:40:07 I'd like to be able to include things like tooltips on particular arcs. can graphviz do that any pass it through to e.g. svg outputs? 09:40:42 lukego: i'm pretty sure i have seen support for tooltips in some backends (maybe it was html) 09:41:04 and when we say graphviz do we mean 'dot' ? 09:42:07 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp039.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:42:23 lukego: yes, that's for directed graphs 09:42:44 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:42:45 okay many thanks guys, graphviz it is 09:42:47 lukego: there's some Lisp code in Hemlock for this: http://www.lichteblau.com/tmp/random-hemlock-stuff.ogv (around 00:01:10) 09:42:53 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:43:56 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:44:00 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Client Quit] 09:44:12 (not as superb as graphviz, and no tooltips, but the same basic kind of algorithm as dot has) 09:44:21 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:47:03 -!- umopepisdn` is now known as pragma_ 09:47:26 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 09:52:53 lichtblau: thanks. I'm not writing this in lisp, just exploiting the channel's knowledge base for use in lesser languages :) 09:54:12 knave! 09:54:20 oh noes, i've been exploited! 09:55:15 lukego: anything happening at vpri these days? 09:59:05 -!- knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:00:31 slava: I'm a bit out of the loop these days. they are still focused more on ideas than software, which makes it hard for guys like me (with no good ideas :)) to make a meaningful contribution 10:02:59 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hvhkakcgvyprbhsu] has left #lisp 10:03:00 -!- aigon [n=ojof@92.82.65.212] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:05:27 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:05:27 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:05:36 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 10:08:40 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:58 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:13:55 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:15:07 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dwbgyjcrnjzlctjc] has joined #lisp 10:15:08 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 10:20:48 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:21:05 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:22:34 spradnyesh1 [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-pvhxykhkmdaoxfjp] has joined #lisp 10:24:10 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dwbgyjcrnjzlctjc] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:24:54 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:25:01 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 10:26:12 -!- pragma_ is now known as incognito` 10:27:02 -!- incognito` is now known as umopepisdn` 10:30:36 -!- didi [n=user@189.68.56.226] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:30:58 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483E8ED.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:48 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32F419.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:58 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Client Quit] 10:36:17 -!- kerimbasol_ [n=kerim@85.107.137.28] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:37:31 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 10:37:52 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:38:37 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 10:39:04 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 10:39:24 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:39:40 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:42:17 -!- HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:42:27 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:43:22 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 10:44:26 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.171.129] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:44:28 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 10:44:57 fantasticsid [n=sid@210.13.109.67] has joined #lisp 10:45:30 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 10:48:10 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:48:40 -!- fantasticsid [n=sid@210.13.109.67] has left #lisp 10:49:21 kerimbasol_ [n=kerim@85.107.137.28] has joined #lisp 10:49:41 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:52:41 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:53:13 -!- luis [n=user@r42.eu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:53:24 -!- morphling [n=stefan@89.13.36.153] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:54:09 luis [n=user@r42.eu] has joined #lisp 10:56:12 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:57:23 good afternoon 10:57:33 hello luis 10:58:35 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:58:45 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 11:01:13 *luis* discovers that Windows XP becomes bearable when using Emacs in fullscreen mode! 11:02:22 luis i'm about to give up on windows and emacs/lisp dev on windows, going to try linux on a pendrive instead, hope it works out 11:02:57 one remove 'on windows' there 11:03:12 Guthur: using XP at work. No way around it, I think. 11:03:16 damn fingers, one remove/ remove one 11:03:56 luis crappy one, if you have admin rights you can run it off the pen drive, not sure how well it works yet 11:05:10 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:05:22 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:06:11 knobo [n=user@88.87.57.60] has joined #lisp 11:06:11 Guthur: I used to run rxvt on cygwin ssh'ing into an qemu linux where emacs + slime was running. 11:06:35 oh yeah, and I have cygwin so I'm OK. 11:08:34 luis: see also xkeymacs and vbacs 11:09:00 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit ["."] 11:09:06 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 11:09:10 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [Client Quit] 11:09:38 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 11:09:42 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [Client Quit] 11:10:17 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 11:11:00 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [Client Quit] 11:11:38 -!- blackwolf [n=blackwol@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:13:02 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 11:13:20 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:14:25 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [Client Quit] 11:14:37 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 11:16:42 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:19:21 is there a concise overview of lisp collections anywhere giving preferred use cases, performance etc. 11:19:27 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [Client Quit] 11:20:53 they use ordinary algorithms, nothing magical 11:21:51 splittist: thanks, I think I will indeed need to use Word at some point. :-/ 11:23:07 anyway, I shouldn't complain at all. I'm using Emacs and programming in CL. :-) 11:23:32 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 11:27:32 ruediger [n=ruediger@93-82-13-66.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 11:29:04 -!- spradnyesh1 [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-pvhxykhkmdaoxfjp] has left #lisp 11:29:59 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:32:23 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:34:35 *splittist* makes the acm portal (with a lot of help from his friends) 11:35:02 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:39:19 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:40:10 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:40:48 levy [n=levy@89.223.171.129] has joined #lisp 11:40:49 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:21 -!- kerimbasol_ [n=kerim@85.107.137.28] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:43:49 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Client Quit] 11:44:37 ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.30] has joined #lisp 11:44:50 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:45:44 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:46:05 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:46:21 fawxtin [n=user@150.162.165.254] has joined #lisp 11:51:01 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:51:33 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:51:51 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 11:52:18 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@188-23-94-26.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 11:53:39 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:53:46 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@93-82-13-66.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:53:57 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:58:32 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:59:03 rootzlevel [n=hpd@nat-extern.rrze.uni-erlangen.de] has joined #lisp 12:00:07 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:03:05 -!- rootzlevel [n=hpd@nat-extern.rrze.uni-erlangen.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:03:26 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:07:04 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 12:09:31 splittist what did you get published? 12:10:26 recently read i very bad opinion of ACM 12:10:35 read i/ read a 12:12:16 can't remember his name some guy who got mentioned in here, is know by this three initials the first being k i think 12:12:31 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:12:35 is know/he's known 12:12:46 *Guthur* considers get finger transplants 12:13:05 probably Kent M Pitman. hates the ACM for different reasons than many :) 12:13:06 grrrr get/getting 12:13:44 yep thats him 12:15:34 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:16:48 *Axioplase* thinks that ACM's 'Communications' is a great magazine 12:17:13 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 12:21:31 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:22:06 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 12:23:23 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-129-134.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 12:25:12 luis: (w32-send-sys-command 61488) (tool-bar-mode 0) on Win32 :-) 12:25:24 slava: I was only working on SFMT in SSE. 12:25:31 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 12:25:40 (setf menu-bar-mode -1) as well 12:30:00 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:30:50 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.196.192] has joined #lisp 12:30:50 lukego: what are those reasons? 12:31:07 he has a rant on the web 12:31:16 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:31:24 on his usual website? 12:31:29 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 12:31:38 don't know, haven't read it in years, find the guy incredibly boring :) 12:31:55 -!- fawxtin [n=user@150.162.165.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:32:15 heh 12:32:21 well, doesn't seem to be at nhplace 12:32:46 fawxtin [n=user@150.162.165.254] has joined #lisp 12:32:52 mathrick: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PFAQ/acm.html 12:33:29 ah 12:33:30 thanks 12:36:33 lukego: regardless of whether you agree with his opinions and/or writing style, KMP is still *exceptionally* polite and reasonable, no matter what. And that's something I personally respect a lot, even if I don't agree 12:40:51 Liam1 [n=healy@129-2-175-69.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:41:14 -!- Liam1 [n=healy@129-2-175-69.wireless.umd.edu] has left #lisp 12:44:21 i actually thought he had a fair point 12:44:31 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:44:56 kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 12:44:56 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:45:04 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:46:36 -!- yacin [n=yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:46:47 yacin [n=yacin@143.215.130.159] has joined #lisp 12:46:59 attila_lendvai [n=ati@89.223.209.177] has joined #lisp 12:47:45 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:47:54 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:48:14 -!- kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Client Quit] 12:48:35 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:48:48 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 12:49:06 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:52:39 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:05 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:54:15 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:54:19 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 12:54:52 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:55:01 ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 12:56:58 indication from experiment/google/manual is that 'dot' ignores pos= attribute and wants to choose node locations itself. does anyone know a 'trick'? 12:57:22 s0ber_ [i=pie@114-45-231-184.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:46 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [No route to host] 12:57:56 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:04 pkhuong: how did it turn out? 12:58:05 lukego: i think the pos attribute is an output-only option, included in the grammar so you can parse a dot that graphviz generates and draw it yourself. 12:58:50 so is there another attribute I should look at in my quest to use graphviz as a vector-graphics toolkit drawing things basically where I want them? 12:59:45 *Xach* doesn't know 13:00:03 kerimbasol [n=kerim@85.107.137.28] has joined #lisp 13:00:10 slava: didn't seem like there'd be any problem translating from C, but I'll complete the intrinsics first. 13:00:44 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:00:44 pkhuong: when you do, try doing the nbody benchmark from the shootout with simd too 13:01:01 its a natural fit. use a pair of xmm registers to represent the 3-vectors it uses 13:01:08 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 13:01:24 its even faster with single precision since everything fits into one register, but that's cheating 13:01:42 lukego: looks like neato will obey pos. 13:02:34 slava: right. 13:04:55 'neato -n' looks promising, yep 13:05:31 does sbcl store compiled code in the same heap as everything else? 13:06:16 -!- ruediger_ is now known as ruediger 13:07:37 lukego: you realise you owe #lisp dot-pron when you get something working (or, at least, pretty) 13:07:49 sure :) 13:08:00 slava: on code-only pages, but otherwise GCed as usual. 13:08:14 this is my miraculous tcp connection grapher rewrite spree Tk -> Morphic -> Graphviz 13:08:42 pkhuong: so code is tenured generationally too? 13:08:54 ropert [n=user@CPE00222d12ee72-CM00222d12ee6e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:10:01 yes. 13:10:53 so there are applications where code block lifetimes actually fit the generational hypothesis? 13:11:05 I always thought most stuff that gets compiled hangs around for a while 13:11:26 probably not (except for CLOS maybe), but it was a small non-intrusive change. 13:11:34 fair enough 13:11:51 stuff on the repl is pretty transient 13:11:51 well, top level forms are another example where it helps 13:12:47 yeah, good point 13:13:19 okay it looks likely that neato will make me very happy 13:13:40 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 13:14:04 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 13:14:18 oudeis [n=oudeis@93-172-65-153.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 13:14:55 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@115.184.87.162] has joined #lisp 13:15:44 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-168-238-243.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:16:02 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 13:16:34 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 13:16:58 demmel1 [n=Adium@guestradig1.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 13:16:58 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:18:24 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:13 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 13:26:26 ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 13:26:31 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:28:21 -!- OmniMancer1 is now known as OmniMancer 13:28:24 s0ber [i=pie@220-136-229-143.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:50 _YKY_ [i=YKY@n11649160157.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 13:30:06 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@115.184.87.162] has left #lisp 13:30:13 <_YKY_> How can I get a pointer to something? 13:30:56 <_YKY_> For instances if I do (setf list (nconc list1 list2)) 13:31:15 <_YKY_> I mean (setf list0 (nconc list1 list2)) 13:31:37 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:31:39 <_YKY_> But I want to alter the contents of list1 or list2 destructively 13:32:50 you can alter contents of conses destructively 13:33:04 <_YKY_> But if I change list1, list0 is unaffected 13:33:13 <_YKY_> I don't understand why 13:33:24 <_YKY_> I want list0 to change 13:33:48 <_YKY_> List1 should be a pointer 13:33:54 how do you change list1? 13:33:58 <_YKY_> Setf? 13:34:05 setf what? 13:34:14 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"] 13:34:25 <_YKY_> (Setf list1 '(a but see)) for example 13:34:29 <_YKY_> (Setf list1 '(a b c)) for example 13:34:29 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 13:34:36 well, you don't alter a list 13:34:47 _YKY_: That sets a variable, but doesn't side-effect the conses of what used to be list1 13:34:50 you are only changing a variable 13:34:57 <_YKY_> Ok... 13:35:19 <_YKY_> What I want is to change the conses 13:35:35 clhs car 13:35:36 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_car_c.htm 13:35:51 <_YKY_> I suppose list1 points to a list 13:36:14 car and cdr are accessors, you can use them as setf places 13:36:38 nconc alters conses destructively too 13:37:34 <_YKY_> But I don't understand why (setf list1 '(x y z)) doesn't work 13:38:41 <_YKY_> I must use car or cdr, but not the pointer directly? 13:39:03 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:39:20 _YKY_: it's not a pointer 13:39:29 or rather, it's a pointer, but not to the list 13:39:34 (if you insist on thinking about pointers) 13:39:51 <_YKY_> So I want to get a pointer to part of a list... 13:40:03 right 13:40:07 (car list1) is a pointer to there 13:40:13 *Adlai* wishes you'd stop thinking about pointers, though 13:40:35 <_YKY_> I'm seriously handicapped if not thinking in pointers 13:40:45 so program in C? 13:41:03 <_YKY_> But why doesn't lisp allow me to think with pointers? 13:41:14 or learn to think in Lisp 13:41:42 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:41:42 <_YKY_> I tried to understand it but it's hard 13:42:15 omerta [n=glgomert@201.243.137.4] has joined #lisp 13:42:39 it's not 13:42:40 _YKY_: everything is a pointer! And you don't have to dereference it. 13:42:44 todo! 13:42:47 tada* 13:43:31 sykopomp: that's misleading 13:43:42 Adlai: (car list) isn't really a pointer to a list 13:43:43 list1 is a pointer to a lexical variable, not to a list 13:44:03 stassats: true, it just gets interpreted as one when you use it as a setf reference 13:44:50 *Adlai* has to go, but: 13:44:56 minion: tell _YKY_ about gentle 13:44:57 _YKY_: direct your attention towards gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 13:45:06 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@68.231.37.148] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:45:08 has some chapters about conses 13:45:09 -!- ropert [n=user@CPE00222d12ee72-CM00222d12ee6e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:45:13 and lists 13:45:33 -!- s0ber_ [i=pie@114-45-231-184.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:45:52 but you can't modify lists destructively 13:46:15 i.e. you can't modify NIL 13:46:39 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:47:10 <_YKY_> Thanks for the book pointer =) 13:47:17 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 13:47:19 ohoho. I get it. 13:47:28 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:47:38 what did you get? 13:47:40 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 13:47:56 he said thanks for a *pointer* to the book? :D 13:48:08 oh, yeah 13:50:38 Unhammer [n=user@c28374BC1.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #lisp 13:53:13 whats the performance of hash-tables like compared to vectors 13:56:05 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:56:22 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:56:36 Guthur: for what purpose? 13:57:11 *splittist* sees a t-shirt slogan somewhere here: 15:41 <_YKY_> I tried to understand it but it's hard 13:57:50 random access, hash is more convenient though 13:58:20 i think i'll go with hash, if i was depending on magic number values it could get messy 13:58:33 your question doesn't make much sense 13:58:46 well, your hash tables are O(n) key lookup, whereas your vectors are O(1) 13:58:48 splittist, "SETF: I tried to understand it but it's hard"? 13:58:50 hashtables and vectors obey different protocols so you can't directly compare performance of opeartions 13:58:57 places everyone! 13:58:58 S11001001: that's false 13:59:16 slava: oh, what have I missed? 13:59:24 S11001001: hashtables are only worst case O(n) 13:59:34 that's what O means :) 13:59:44 S11001001: no... 14:00:01 S11001001: in most cases you will see O(1) access in a hashtable 14:00:07 unless your hash algorithm sucks 14:00:14 O(n) thats pretty bad 14:00:26 it's pretty rare, too. 14:00:39 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:00:56 with a balanced tree you can guarantee O(log n) but unless you need the data to be sorted all the time, the overhead compared to a hashtable is quite significant 14:00:58 ya i was hoping for alot better than that 14:01:20 Guthur: since you're unfamiliar with basic data structures, it seems highly unlikely you're programing something where performance matters 14:01:21 Guthur: what sort of keys are you talking about here? 14:01:30 Guthur: write the clearest possible code then optimize it if it is too slow 14:01:51 all cases includes best and worst cases, and O is the upper bound 14:02:02 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:02:18 S11001001: in that case, big-O notation becomes useless 14:02:27 not really 14:02:27 if you can't talk about hashtables 14:02:33 e.g. quicksort is O(n^2) whereas heapsort is O(nlogn) 14:02:38 S11001001: in general there's average-case, worst-case separation 14:02:43 S11001001: in theory, everything is O(1), since your computer only has a finite amount of memory and is therefore a finite state machine 14:02:46 and you can always say "average case to be explicit" 14:02:55 "average case" to be explicit 14:03:00 kupad [n=kupad@dsl254-079-179.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:43 big-O is a generalisation anyway 14:03:52 big-O sorry 14:04:08 umm ya right it just looks like a 0 14:04:21 ... 14:04:25 sigh 14:04:39 Guthur: hash tables are easy. If you need keyed random access, use them. 14:04:44 next! 14:04:46 it is it doesn't represent exactly the performance 14:05:12 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:05:13 but what it doesn't represent is pretty insignificant 14:05:21 sykopomp: well, if your keys are from 0 to reasonable n, then vectors are better 14:05:38 S11001001: no, worst, best, average or expected are orthogonal to big-oh, small-o, Omega or Theta. 14:06:16 stassats: yes, but I'm seeking a quick resolution and willing to bet he doesn't "just" have numbers to index into, considering he's asking about random access. 14:06:18 are writes into an array O(n) in sbcl? 14:06:36 greyhame [n=jao@200.Red-83-43-32.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:43 if an object in an old generation is written to, does the next minor GC scan the entire object or only the fields that fall inside the marked card? 14:07:06 slava and if the answer was so easy how come people are having different opinions 14:07:21 ie, does doing O(n) alternating minor GCs and stores into an array take O(n^2) work? 14:07:33 Guthur: its not a matter of opinion, these things have precise, agreed upon definitions 14:07:36 slava: they're definitely in O(n) ;) IIRC, only the marked pages are scanned. 14:07:55 pkhuong: but if an object is partly on a marked page does it scan the whole object or just the intersection with the page? 14:08:03 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 14:08:12 IIRC, ghc does the latter, and so it performs very poorly when you have large hashtables because the GC spends so much time scanning roots 14:08:50 agreed upon in terms of lisp performance over said data structures, umm i think not 14:09:25 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:09:28 Guthur: thankfully it doesn't matter if people agree on anything because you can measure the performance of different algorithms and pick the data structure that is best for your app 14:09:33 Guthur: maybe you should grab a copy of Cormen. That might help you ask better questions. 14:09:57 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 14:10:00 s/better questions/questions better/? 14:10:41 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@93-172-65-153.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:10:43 slava: the GC must first find the beginning of the object (unboxed slots), so unfortunately, it probably scans the whole page. 14:10:50 *the whole objec 14:11:41 pkhuong: if you store the offset of the first and last object in each page somewhere, then you only have to scan the auxilliary data structure, not the page itself 14:12:03 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:12:13 pkhuong: that's probably optimal 14:12:19 even then, it probably scans the whole object because that's the only method we have. 14:13:20 Unboxed vectors (which get unboxed pages) help, but it definitely would be a good idea to handle at least large boxed vectors. 14:13:36 sykopomp i missed the question quality requirements, where are they? 14:13:59 Guthur: http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html 14:14:07 benny` [n=benny@i577A1571.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:14:07 Guthur: garbage in garbage out. 14:14:12 Guthur: don't waste everyone's time with stuff that you could answer by reading on your own 14:14:13 quality of answers depends on quality of questions 14:17:11 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:39 rudi_ [n=rudi@129.27.202.101] has joined #lisp 14:17:58 -!- benny [n=benny@87.122.18.20] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:20:12 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 14:20:40 -!- phadthai_ is now known as phadthai 14:21:09 slava: actually, it's probably the whole allocation page that gets scanned (and downgraded in seniority?). The gen in gencgc isn't that hot. 14:23:05 -!- Unhammer [n=user@c28374BC1.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:24:20 scottmaccal [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has joined #lisp 14:26:22 slava: btw, can you think of a language where the type system is used to ensure that the heap remains a DAG, in the presence of side effects (and not just by only allowing assignment to unboxed slots)? 14:26:30 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:35 -!- demmel1 [n=Adium@guestradig1.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:29:15 morphling [n=stefan@89.13.36.153] has joined #lisp 14:30:02 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:06 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 14:31:09 good afternoon 14:31:30 pkhuong: no idea 14:32:11 pkhuong: why, thinking of going back to reference counting? :) 14:32:22 levy: I have a build problem: component :CL-POSTGRES+LOCAL-TIME not found (required by hu.dwim.rdbms.postgresql) 14:32:31 -!- benny` is now known as benny 14:33:03 slava: well, 1 bit, maybe. 14:33:06 levy: do I have to do more than pulldwim? 14:33:15 kami-: get the local-time repo from dwim.hu 14:33:39 attila_lendvai: ok. 14:34:05 pkhuong: I'm working on a mark-compact gc right now 14:34:20 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:34:27 -!- kerimbasol [n=kerim@85.107.137.28] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:39 scottmaccal [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has joined #lisp 14:38:56 kafkaesk [n=kafkaesk@88.238.180.156] has joined #lisp 14:39:16 -!- kafkaesk [n=kafkaesk@88.238.180.156] has left #lisp 14:40:16 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:40:26 coliv [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has joined #lisp 14:40:28 Guthur: Back to your hash table question, I'm currently have a couple hash tables in my lisp image that have 884736 entries. When I run loop-max on them from the REPL, the response is nearly instantaneous. 14:40:41 s/I'm/I/ 14:40:44 Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has joined #lisp 14:42:11 -!- billitch [n=billitch@78.236.153.65] has quit ["http://b.lowh.net/billitch"] 14:42:18 kami-, sometimes we need to add patches to repos temporarily, and we did not have a repo for that before, I hope dwim.hu provides uptodate info on those issues all the time (at least that would be the point of the reflexive install guide) 14:42:56 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:12 tmh, not sure its wise bringing it up apparently its a waste of time, actually cheers though i'm just being facetious in response to a bruised ego or something 14:43:14 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:43:35 -!- _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:43:35 -!- bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:43:35 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:45:25 Guthur: Oh, I was trying to give you anecdotal evidence that the performance of hash tables was satisfactory. I actually skipped over the ego bashing. 14:46:00 levy: yes, that's sensible, if one has work to do. 14:46:52 levy: but, now I have that metacopy-with-contextl missing dependency again: component :METACOPY-WITH-CONTEXTL not found, required by hu.dwim.perec 14:47:11 tmh ya its cool i appreciate it, i shouldn't have asked its not really an issue in my situation, very few elements and key-lookup is convenient, the lookup might happen often though that was the main reason for asking i suppose 14:47:31 levy: I once fixed it by loading metacopy, asdf-system-connections and contextl explicitly in the asdf file of perec 14:47:45 levy: but that is probably not the correct way to do that 14:48:08 kami-: is your metacopy repo from dwim.hu? pulled? 14:49:47 -!- omerta [n=glgomert@201.243.137.4] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:50:26 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 14:50:54 attila_lendvai: does pulldwim pull it, too? 14:51:13 kami-: no 14:51:21 it's not our project 14:51:26 attila_lendvai: that was the problem. I pulled that patch. 14:51:27 milanj [n=milan@79.101.204.100] has joined #lisp 14:51:38 there's pullstuff also 14:51:52 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:51:56 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.162.32] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:52:04 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.162.32] has joined #lisp 14:52:13 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:08 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has quit [] 14:55:56 attila_lendvai, levy, what about this one: Lock on package SB-EXT violated when defining TIMEOUT as a condition. 14:56:04 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:16 in bordeaux-threads 14:56:20 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@115.184.45.215] has joined #lisp 15:00:50 ejs [n=eugen@94.178.41.33] has joined #lisp 15:01:52 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:02:15 -!- ASau [n=user@host205-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["day is over"] 15:03:03 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.30] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:03:38 Anyone here use the META parser? 15:04:24 kami-: do you have the latest of b-t? 15:05:15 kami-: darcs pull http://common-lisp.net/project/bordeaux-threads/darcs/bordeaux-threads 15:05:31 Computer [n=Computer@unaffiliated/computer] has joined #lisp 15:05:42 *luis* just helped a coworker load a library through ASDF 15:05:51 this a whole new perspective :) 15:05:58 luis: was there blood? 15:07:11 -!- Computer [n=Computer@unaffiliated/computer] has left #lisp 15:07:17 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.155.177] has joined #lisp 15:07:43 Can anyone explain to me what (make-array nil :initial-element 'foo) actualy mean? 15:07:45 attila_lendvai: hmm. I had the one from dwim.hu (I could swear it was written in the docs) 15:08:00 knobo: it makes a container with one element 15:08:20 What would one use it for? 15:08:20 knobo: a zero-dimensional array should naturally have one point 15:08:27 nice try, factor man 15:09:01 *Xach* fails at deep thoughts 15:09:08 you can access 'foo with (aref array) 15:09:30 What is a use case for that? 15:09:40 I imagine its just there for completeness 15:09:48 you could pass it around like a reference 15:10:24 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has left #lisp 15:10:25 could be useful if array is specialized, but iirc sbcl doesn't like it much 15:10:26 dlowe: Is that better than (list 'foo) ? 15:10:52 kami-: since then the pending patches were pushed upstream 15:10:54 kami-, it used to be there, but now the official contains all patches, maybe we should find a better way to manage these temporary patches... 15:11:01 tmh: might use less memory 15:11:09 though I doubt it 15:11:11 *tmh* thinks maybe better since you could append to the list. 15:11:16 I think you should have seen an error message when pulling 15:13:24 elliotstern [n=chatzill@129.21.41.18] has joined #lisp 15:13:34 kenjin [n=kenjin@163.152.180.173] has joined #lisp 15:13:43 _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:13:43 bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:13:43 dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:13:58 -!- kenjin is now known as Guest92060 15:15:18 levy: does darcs have something like Mercurial Queues? 15:15:48 -!- Guest92060 is now known as kenjin2 15:17:21 levy: and is there a reason, why pullstuff doesn't contain bordeau-threads (I mean how is 'stuff' defined :) ? 15:18:00 "bordeaux", please! 15:21:30 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 15:21:46 drgnvale [n=acristin@209.16.73.144] has joined #lisp 15:21:51 aigon [n=ojof@92.82.69.240] has joined #lisp 15:22:02 "bordoh" 15:22:08 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 15:22:21 cmm: "Bawn geeornow" 15:22:37 beach: sorry. It was a typo! Normalement, je n'oublie pas des lettres. 15:23:02 s/des/de 15:23:24 Blaay [i=Blay@BSN-143-124-210.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:01 bon, d'accord. 15:24:05 :) 15:24:11 why does (apply 'min '(1 2 3 4)) work as well as (apply #'min '(1 2 3 4) ? Is it just the compiler's thoughtful consideration? 15:24:29 kenjin2: a symbol is a function designator 15:24:42 kenjin2: Look that up in the glossary of the CLHS and you will see. 15:24:49 But then why do we have #' as well? 15:25:05 kenjin2: They mean different things. 15:25:06 kenjin2: #'min passes the actual function as a parameter, 'min is just a symbol 15:25:09 kenjin2: because 'min only sees the global function binding 15:25:10 kenjin2: #' will give you the function object for local functions. 15:25:32 see, that was a nice easy question 15:25:53 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483E8ED.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:25:58 Ok what's CLHS then? 15:25:59 kami-, I don't know Mercurial, so no idea 15:26:05 clhs apply 15:26:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 15:26:13 minion: tell kenjin2 about clhs 15:26:14 kenjin2: look at clhs: To look up a symbol in the HyperSpec, try saying "clhs symbol". For more information on the HyperSpec see http://www.cliki.net/CLHS . 15:26:35 kami-, pullstuff should contain all libraries that any dwim.hu project depends on 15:27:04 btw, I think dwim.hu could provide an uptodate update script 15:27:12 that would make it easier to update to the live system 15:27:19 Thank you all 15:28:32 kenjin2: No problem. 15:31:00 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:31:33 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 15:32:14 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@129.21.41.18] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:34:32 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:36:01 -!- knobo [n=user@88.87.57.60] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:38:37 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 15:39:19 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:39:27 elliotstern [n=chatzill@129.21.41.18] has joined #lisp 15:39:33 MalcolmReynolds [n=malc@mreynolds.cs.ucl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:40:24 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:41:18 i'm just setting up a new os x 10.6 (64 bit) system. i can't seem to find any binaries of sbcl for 64 bit darwin, so the question is can i use a 32 bit binary to bootstrap and will i end up with the thing I want (fully 64 bit sbcl)? 15:42:07 fjji [n=ojof@92.82.91.41] has joined #lisp 15:42:48 MalcolmReynolds: There is a 1.0.29 binary for Darwin/AMD64 on the SBCL downloads page. 15:43:02 git is pretty awesome and huge. 15:43:23 tmh: i clicked and it just takes me to http://sourceforge.net/projects/sbcl/files/ ... 15:43:37 MalcolmReynolds: Yes, I'm seeing that now, sorry. 15:43:42 Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has joined #lisp 15:43:58 MalcolmReynolds: Scroll down and expand 1.0.29 15:44:32 I was reading a bit through PAIP last night, and read about symbols - which i've read about before, and had discussions here with. Symbols, though, tend to still confuse me. From my understanding, all symbols are stored in a symbol-table that's global. But, if you have a function with keywords, you're using symbols - if you use the same name symbol there as elsewhere, how is the scope of that handled? 15:44:59 tmh: ah great, thanks. sorry, i'd assumed that no auto-download like you get for x86 meant the build wasn't there. 15:45:11 TDT: keyword( symbol)s are just symbols in the KEYWORD package which are used for multiple purposes 15:45:13 TDT: keywords are special symbols. 15:45:16 MalcolmReynolds: Yeah, that was my expectation as well. 15:45:29 they're keywords interned into the KEYWORD package, whose symbol-value is the keyword itself. 15:46:16 TDT: Why do you think that would be a problem? 15:47:55 beach: It's just my lack of understanding about what a symbol actually is perhaps. When I think of it, I think of it as a constant, but it links to something else and can be changed? that part kinda confuses me. 15:48:10 keywords are just special cases of symbols. 15:48:16 regular symbols are usually namespaced into packages. 15:48:24 TDT: a symbol is an object, like a cons or a number. 15:48:27 so you won't have a conflict unless you're using the package. 15:48:27 tsuru [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:43 TDT: In what way can a symbol be changed in your opinion? 15:48:44 TDT: symbols and packages refer to each other, and symbols have values and function bindings and so on. 15:49:00 -!- aigon [n=ojof@92.82.69.240] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:49:18 TDT: so doing 'foo in package X, and 'foo in package Y will yield two different symbols. The first will be X::FOO, the second Y::FOO. 15:49:23 well, keywords itself aren't that much special, they're just treated specially 15:49:29 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@89.223.209.177] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:50:21 sykopomp: Hmm, that makes a bit more sense - but say two functions have the same keywords - both say using "foo" in this case, are both in the same keyword package? 15:50:25 not keyword 15:50:27 symbol 15:50:54 again. A keyword is a -special- kind of symbol. Probably not the kind you're referring to. 15:50:56 TDT: What do you mean by a "keyword"? Normally it means a symbol in the keyword package. 15:51:33 it's unfortunate that keyword has *two* meanings, keyword parameters and keyword symbols, which are mixed up by default 15:51:41 beach: My understanding of how symbols are is not good enough to explain adequately to the questions you're asking :) I'm just trying to wrap my arms around it right now. 15:51:50 kpreid: that's not exactly two different meanings. 15:52:03 yes, it is 15:52:11 TDT: 'foo <-- symbol. :foo <-- keyword 15:52:15 TDT: It is hard to help you if you do not explain what you mean. when you say "a function has a keyword", what do you mean? 15:52:27 sykopomp: hmm, thought those were the same. 15:52:30 kpreid: 'keyword parameters' use keywords. They're parameters indexed by keywords. 15:52:43 sykopomp: no, they *DEFAULT* to using keywords. it is only a default. 15:52:52 TDT: no, they're not. The first will be interned into a particular package, the second belongs to the KEYWORD package, and its value is itself. 15:53:01 sykopomp: don't use ' like that, it's confusing 15:53:09 ' is not like : 15:53:25 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-12-82.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:53:29 kpreid: as I'm explaining. I'm trying to clarify it to him a bit. 15:53:50 you are adding the confusion of evaluation 15:53:53 talk of foo and :foo if you must 15:53:56 not 'foo and :foo 15:54:09 kpreid: I'm talking about how you'd usually see it in code. 15:54:29 and if you really want to be anal about it, it would be FOO and :FOO 15:54:33 beach: The argument you can pass for defaults, rest and so on in defun, basically where you're able to call (foo :bar 5 ...) 15:54:35 when it comes to "what is a symbol", you need to be precise 15:55:05 KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-4-231.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:08 kpreid: or I can explain it in a high level, without going into all the hand-wavy details :) 15:55:40 I think it makes a bit more sense right now, I do want to get into the details eventually, but I appreciate the explanation. 15:55:41 TDT: So you are confused about what happens when you can do both (foo :bar 5) and (baz :bar 10)? 15:55:43 TDT: "the function accepts a keyword argument BAR" 15:55:50 beach: exactly 15:56:07 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94.178.41.33] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:56:19 TDT: the two functions have entirely different interpretations of the keyword symbol :foo occurring in their argument list 15:56:24 but it's the same symbol 15:56:32 TDT: The function is passed a list containing both the symbol :bar and the following value. 15:56:47 the keyword symbol :bar is never altered. 15:56:53 -!- splittist [n=David@85.4.220.156] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 15:56:53 beach: yeah, under the covers how :bar is handled is what I'm kinda curious about. 15:57:55 TDT: In the example above, you will have list of the symbol :bar and the number 5 in one case and and a list of :bar and the number 10 in the second case. 15:58:26 [at least you can think of it that way] 15:59:08 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 15:59:08 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:59:16 Yeah...I have a feeling I may need to think of it that way for now. Reading PAIP right now, but I think gentle will be something I need to read next 15:59:27 to my understanding it goes pretty deep into symbols 16:00:03 if you've read paip, you don't need gentle anymore 16:00:16 TDT: The function then parses the arguments and sticks the number (5 and 10 respectively) in a pre-agreed-upon machine register or on the stack. Whenever the code refers to the name of the parameter, it is looked up in that register or on the stack. 16:00:20 Only on chapter 4 of PAIP at the moment 16:01:04 beach: That helps clarify it, but internally the names for :bar, how are those stored? 16:01:47 TDT: A symbol like :bar is a complex data structure that contains (amongh other things) the name (here "BAR") as a character string. 16:02:36 I keep ending up at the META parser and then getting turned away by the syntax. Maybe it would be feasible to clean up the syntax. 16:02:41 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:02:41 TDT: When you call something like (foo :bar 5) you put a pointer to the symbol bar and the number 5 on the stack or in registers, and then jump to the first instruction of the function foo. 16:02:47 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:03:50 Can anyone give me an example that I cannot use "quote" as a function designator in place of #' ? 16:04:00 beach: So the life of :bar in this case only exists while that funtion is alive, and goes away after? 16:04:09 kenjin2: 'list 16:04:09 *tmh* makes that statement hoping that someone else has already done it. :-) 16:04:24 oh, cannot 16:04:39 TDT: No, the symbol :bar exists after the function exits (and before it is called). 16:04:44 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:04:46 kenjin2: you always can use symbols as function designators 16:04:52 levy: I patched environment.sh, such that pullstuff pulls all libs which are mentioned in the tutorial. 16:04:57 kenjin2: (defun foo (bar) (print "top bar")) (flet ((foo (bar) (print "inner bar"))) (funcall 'foo 'x)) 16:05:14 kenjin2: but not all functions accept function designators 16:05:15 the behavior may not be what you expect sometimes. 16:05:15 TDT: Symbols are created when the code is read, and then they mostly never go away. 16:05:18 levy: I'll send it to the ML 16:05:28 stassats: really? Which ones don't? 16:05:38 kami-, ok 16:05:43 kami-, thanks 16:05:45 beach: Ok, that makes sense - so when using :bar in the function it points to the :bar symbol - but you were saying that :bar itself never points to 5? 16:05:55 levy: shall it pull dojo, too? 16:06:02 TDT: That's correct. 16:06:03 sykopomp: (defun foo (fun) (check-type fun function) ..) 16:06:36 Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has joined #lisp 16:06:46 stassats: right. I thought you meant higher-order functions. 16:06:48 TDT: When symbols are associated with values that way, we call such associations "bindings". 16:07:07 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 16:07:10 kami-, hmm, I don't think so, we usually stick to a particular dojo version not to break too many things with a pull 16:07:17 sykopomp: is foo a lower order function? 16:07:30 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:07:44 levy: oh. what does svn info say in your workspace/dojo? 16:07:50 -!- kupad [n=kupad@dsl254-079-179.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:08:03 beach: So in a function, when I do a (let ((f :bar)) ..), f I'm sure points to 5 - but through the bindings you're saying, how is that pointing accomplished? 16:08:05 stassats: I wouldn't consider check-type one. 16:08:07 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@129.21.41.18] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:08:12 -!- rudi_ [n=rudi@129.27.202.101] has quit ["Client exciting"] 16:08:13 sykopomp: Great! thank you. 16:08:38 kenjin2: fyi, I also prefer using 'foo to refer to functions, but you have to be careful how/when you use it. 16:08:40 sykopomp: check-type isn't function at all 16:08:50 levy: and in workspace/dojo/dojo 16:09:07 stassats: i thought you meant standard functions. can you think of any? 16:09:08 stassats: right 16:09:22 *stassats* uses #' for cl functions and ' for his functions 16:09:31 demmel [n=Adium@guestradig1.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 16:09:33 kami-, Revision: 18738 16:09:47 stassats: why that style? 16:09:49 this is the one that the live install script refers to 16:09:50 Seen Fare? 16:10:02 TDT: Well your example is kind of wrong, you would not use :bar there but bar. The compiler, when it sees a symbol, generates code to find its value. That value, the compiler has decided to stick in a particular place such as on the stack or in a register. The code generated from that example then just fetches the value from that place. 16:10:09 levy: thanks. I have to revert to that version. :) 16:10:11 sykopomp: because cl functions shouldn't change 16:10:28 sykopomp: I don't understand why you prefer 'foo yet, but OK I'll keep in mind. Thank you again. 16:10:53 kami-, it might work with the head I just don't bother to follow changes unless something forces me to do so 16:10:53 kenjin2: one less character to type, and it seemed like it made compilers work faster. 16:10:59 Xach: compiled-function-p? 16:11:07 kupad [n=kupad@dsl254-079-179.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:17 TDT: If you are really interested in that kind of stuff, I recommend you read a book about compiler techniques. 16:11:18 I should probably figure out -why- using 'foo ended up being faster. Probably something to do with compiler macros or something. 16:11:47 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:11:48 TDT: One of Andy Appel's books should do fine. 16:11:50 stassats: interesting 16:12:01 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 16:12:08 or better: function-lambda-expression 16:12:12 *Xach* always enjoys watching his /clhs lookup log mirroring #lisp discussion 16:12:30 Xach: you caught me checking check-type :( 16:12:31 CLiki knows all! -> meta-sexp 16:13:02 TDT: http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~appel/modern/ 16:13:32 TDT: Or, you can try to attack Lisp in Small Pieces. 16:13:42 minion: please tell TDT about LiSP. 16:13:42 TDT: have a look at LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 16:13:54 beach: engineering a compiler was recommended to me. Any thoughts about it? 16:14:06 sykopomp: I haven't read it :( 16:15:22 *question* what is the appropriate name for a type that represents time values without respect to the actual date and daylight saving, etc. simply such as 14:28? 16:15:31 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:15:34 I have to candidates and wondering which is better 16:15:52 "time"? 16:16:04 that's one of them 16:16:15 the problem with that is obvious and not easy to fix 16:16:22 "time" is what i see databases use. 16:16:22 time-of-day 16:16:35 levy: sorry, it's not obvious to me. what's the problem? 16:16:39 tempus? 16:16:41 (as opposed to time-since-some-epoch) 16:17:01 Xach, deftype cl:time -> error 16:17:09 levy: shadow to the rescue! 16:17:19 jsnell, do you think daytime is also good? 16:17:31 levy: after 20:00, it's nighttime 16:17:32 Xach, and fight with :use :cl :foo? no thanks 16:18:20 cl:time is a really bad name for what it actually does, but that is not going to change 16:18:32 levy: if that's your priority, fine. i usually try to use a good name and if it's a cl conflict, i shadow. 16:18:42 daytime looks pretty horrible to me, but my opinion probably doesn't count for much 16:18:48 and i use :shadowing-import-from on conflicts. 16:18:53 clhs 11.1.2.1.2 strikes again! 16:19:02 beach: k, thanks for the help on that - I think I'll read Lisp in Small Pieces, I briefy looked at it in the past, but I think I'll work on that after PAIP. The explanations from a lot of people helped here, I appreciate it a lot. Thanks all. 16:20:54 aigon [n=ojof@92.82.77.185] has joined #lisp 16:21:22 sykopomp, actually I think there number of names which CL got wrong 16:21:36 at least in the sense that they are doing something really specific and they are fixed to be used for that purpose 16:22:01 shadowing and shadowing import is a not so good tool to solve that 16:22:09 levy: I disagree. 16:22:11 time/get/set are examples 16:22:59 -!- aigon [n=ojof@92.82.77.185] has quit [Client Quit] 16:23:03 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 16:23:57 -!- fjji [n=ojof@92.82.91.41] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:24:31 Xach, in what sense time is a good name? 16:24:38 elliotstern [n=chatzill@129.21.41.18] has joined #lisp 16:25:14 levy: I don't think shadow and shadowing-import are bad tools for using names you want to use. 16:25:34 Xach: Introspection on SBCL reveals that pretty much everything takes (or function symbol), except for function which take a /format control/ like cerror, break etc 16:25:47 Xach: An exception is COMPLEMENT 16:25:47 Xach, ah I see, and you are right except for the names that are in the CL package 16:25:49 levy: I think "time" is a reasonable name, but perhaps there is something better. I would not reject it solely because of the conflict with cl:time. 16:26:43 tcr: interesting. i wonder why complement is an exception. 16:27:45 Xach, well it's not the end of the world, but with little effort this could have been solved back in those days 16:28:18 I don't generally like the idea of forcing users to use shadowing-import when they want to use my :foo package and :cl 16:28:18 tcr: the example in the CLHS page for complement suggests otherwise, though. 16:29:07 examples are not part of the standard 16:29:37 Adlai: Which example? You're talking of the equivalence relation in the Notes section? 16:29:49 tcr: yes 16:30:20 because APPLY does accept a function designator 16:30:25 so the example seems to conflict with the specification 16:30:37 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 16:30:46 That's a "note" not an example 16:30:58 all examples are perfectly congruent with the specification 16:31:09 and notice that the Notes section is also not formal part of the specification 16:31:49 yeah. It's odd that it doesn't take designators. 16:32:11 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 16:32:14 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:37:09 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:37:14 -!- MalcolmReynolds [n=malc@mreynolds.cs.ucl.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:38:04 gonzojive, ref. your talk about optimization and clos etc. (yesterday, i think?) .. what's really missing is some way of extracting type information (type inferring stuff) from the compiler (the type inferring stuff it does); that way people could optimize a lot of things themselves via standard compiler macros .. i don't understand why it is almost impossible to figure out or extract type information from or via something like; (let ((x 42)) (for 16:38:04 mat t "the type of X is ~A~%" (sb-xxxx:find-type x))) .. or whatever .. the compiler certainly knows that that is a fixnum internally, but for users it is seemingly impossible extract this information 16:38:53 malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@mreynolds.cs.ucl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:39:57 lnostdal: Type inference is typically performed on a CFG (Control Flow Graph), not on an AST (Abstact Syntax Tree) 16:40:05 macros, and compiler-macros operate on the AST in Lisp 16:40:31 "typically", at least on cmucl/sbcl 16:40:39 yes, but these things must be connected at some points 16:40:54 factor does type inference on an AST 16:40:56 ..the cfg stuff or whatever is "derived from" the ast (user code) 16:41:00 I think Henry Bakers Nimble type inference did it on the AST and produced an AST enriched with normal CL declarations 16:41:04 ..so there must be a connection 16:41:38 lnostdal: The way it's done in SBCL/CMUCL is that there's no isomorphic mapping between AST and CFG 16:42:00 yeah 16:42:19 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:42:22 nurv101 [n=nurv101@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 16:42:39 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-222-139.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:43:12 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-227.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:43:40 I think ECL does type inference also on the AST 16:46:02 rsynnott [n=rsynnott@87-198-231-166.ptr.magnet.ie] has joined #lisp 16:46:14 -!- rsynnott_ [n=rsynnott@87-198-231-166.ptr.magnet.ie] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:46:30 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 16:47:11 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:47:53 sellout [n=greg@pool-141-157-182-132.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:03 -!- morphling [n=stefan@89.13.36.153] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:49:22 Does anyone know a good graphic of a Dataflow Graph of a program? I can't seem to be able to construct an image in my imagination 16:49:42 what do you mean by a dataflow graph? 16:49:44 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:49:45 its not a well defined concept 16:50:12 Well, don't you actually perform type inference on the data flow of a program? 16:50:23 which is only incidentally related to the way control flows 16:50:54 seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:37 tcr: you might be thinking of the def-use graph 16:52:36 but control flow does play a role in the type of propagation that you want to perform to infer types in a dynamic language 16:52:46 because you want to propagate conditional type information introduced by guards 16:53:10 what's guards? 16:53:24 implicitly generated type checks? 16:53:28 (if (typep foo 'bar) ...) 16:53:36 ok 16:53:37 conditionals that test a type of a value 16:55:18 yCrazyEdd [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 16:55:19 sure it plays a role 16:55:39 but yeah I'm probably trying to mentally merge a def-use and use-def graph :) 16:56:08 its the same thing 16:56:41 when doing addition of three fixnums and want result to be fixnum do I need to wrap (the fixnum (+ a (the fixnum (+ b c )))) or (the fixnum (+ a b c)) is ok for compiler (SBCL) 16:56:45 slava: Is there something you'd do differently when you would write factor's compiler anew? 16:57:01 i'm not getting notes form (the fixnum (+ a b c)) 16:57:17 and disassemble looks similar in both cases 16:57:17 tcr: there are a few refactorings I have planned, and I could've avoided those by implementing stuff that way in the first place 16:57:21 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1"] 16:57:22 milanj, turn up the 'speed' policy and pay attention to what the compiler isn't able to figure out on its own 16:57:24 the latter should be fine 16:57:26 tcr: but no major architectural decisions that I regret and cannot reverse 16:57:36 lnostdal, i tried that 16:58:00 stassats: Uhm no (+ a b) might produce a bignum, and c might be negative to get the result into the realm of fixnums again 16:58:16 milanj, ..it'll tell you if something is missing .. it'll be silent if it knows everything it needs to know to optimize fully 16:58:16 stassats: not necessarily. (the fixnum (+ a b)) could be satisfied with a and b bignums. 16:58:42 tcr: I'm actually really happy with how it turned out. it is very easy to extend with new optimizations 16:59:13 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:59:16 slava: can the reason for the extensibility summarized into a sentence, or two? 16:59:19 slava: and you work on an AST internally? 16:59:21 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 16:59:36 pkhuong: there's 'high level IR' which is like an AST and 'low level IR" which is a CFG 16:59:45 ok. 17:00:11 pkhuong: the frontend is a single pass which converts stack code into something that's like an AST (recovers value structure), which expanding macros and doing inlining 17:00:14 Yuuhi [i=benni@84.131.232.237] has joined #lisp 17:00:18 pkhuong: and building loop nodes where there's tail recursion, etc 17:00:34 pkhuong: then after some transformations on the AST-like IR, the CFG gets built 17:00:39 danlei [n=user@pD9E2C45B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:46 pkhuong: it has a different value structure and different primitive instructions 17:01:24 pkhuong: its similar in spirit to ICR1 and ICR2 17:01:59 -!- kenjin2 [n=kenjin@163.152.180.173] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:03:06 looks like later form is enough 17:03:14 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1571.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:03:32 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32FE72.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:43 i remember that in cmucl manual there is something about that, that you need to wrap it over two addition 17:04:05 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-117-28.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 17:04:37 milanj: it depends on whether there's enough information about the values to deduce a useful range for the intermediate sum. 17:06:38 hmm, how do you mean ? 17:06:54 there is 3 arguments all declared as fixnums 17:08:00 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442868.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:13:00 -!- yCrazyEdd is now known as CrazyEddy 17:14:46 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:15:45 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:17:56 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:24 nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has joined #lisp 17:20:00 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:45 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 17:21:47 benny [n=benny@i577A1571.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:23:26 *Xach* finds his first-ever "natural" use of "~{~}" 17:23:43 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@38.112.6.110] has joined #lisp 17:24:04 Xach: exciting! 17:24:09 what is "natural" use? 17:24:27 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:53 *Xach* got too excited, and it doesn't apply in his situation after all. 17:25:24 Xach: that format string looks familiar 17:25:35 stassats: when a non-contrived problem has it as a solution 17:25:44 Adlai: it iterates over a list 17:25:46 *Xach* backs away quickly to avoid defining "non-contrived" 17:26:00 Adlai: that's the one you so cleverly pointed out. 17:26:04 nub 17:26:10 stassats: yes, I know 17:26:15 sykopomp: maybe I was referring to that. 17:26:22 Xach: i see 17:26:28 Adlai: you coy bastard, you. 17:27:26 stassats: when you have nothing inside the ~{~}, it behaves a bit like ~? 17:28:58 i don't think it would work 17:29:39 stassats: do you still think that after reading the spec? 17:29:41 clhs 22.3.7.4 17:29:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cgd.htm 17:30:02 Xach: no, i stopped thinking before reading the spec 17:30:25 read it! you will change your mind. 17:31:04 if it doesn't, you can have a full refund 17:32:41 yeah, it works "a bit like" i was expecting a bit more than a bit 17:33:44 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.155.177] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:39:27 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:40:09 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@115.184.45.215] has left #lisp 17:42:53 ferada [n=user@g224151143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:43:22 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 17:46:11 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-235.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 17:46:26 hi stassats. 17:46:31 borism [n=boris@195.50.199.134] has joined #lisp 17:46:35 any news on slime-open-system? 17:47:14 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 17:48:13 i committed it yesterday, just forgot to commit ChangeLog 17:49:22 ]\ 17:49:22 \ 17:49:23 \ 17:49:34 slow man 17:49:51 sorry 17:49:58 ferret fight on keyboard 17:50:41 drewc: Do you have a couple of minutes? 17:51:06 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.192.23] has joined #lisp 17:52:20 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:52:28 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 17:52:59 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.58] has joined #lisp 17:53:32 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-vsptwlivrcnwsact] has joined #lisp 17:53:52 Bah I forgot that listing asdf system doesn't work on my box 17:55:21 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@mreynolds.cs.ucl.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:00:00 -!- HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:00:13 tcr: yeah, i do, what's up? 18:00:40 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@38.112.6.110] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:01:21 drewc: could you grant the c-l.net account for adlai? (I requested it yesterday) 18:02:54 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 18:06:19 tcr: no problemo, i'm on it 18:09:29 p0a [n=user@athedsl-385681.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 18:09:34 Hello in a macro dispatch function 18:09:52 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:09:57 say, it gets invoked with #" and ends with "#. 18:10:03 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 18:10:24 Will it be invoked twice for #"#""#"#? or once, and the function will read '#""#' 18:10:32 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:10:43 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 18:10:47 depends on how you write it 18:11:00 That means it will be invoked once by default 18:11:01 correct? 18:11:28 tcr, Adlai: that should do it 18:11:47 drewc: great, thanks! 18:11:47 jeti [n=jeti@84.142.179.142] has joined #lisp 18:11:48 p0a: if you use READ inside the dispatch macro function, yes twice 18:12:24 Only READ is affected? 18:12:56 I think the answer is yes, or that most IO functions are not affected because READ makes use of the readtable or something. 18:13:14 well, READ and READ-FROM-STRING 18:13:25 read-sequence not, that's a bit of a misnomer 18:13:36 right 18:14:39 the best thing is that you write test cases for your reader macro 18:14:53 using read-from-string, that's no big thingie 18:16:02 Can I insert a single character in an input stream? 18:16:34 you can read back a single character using unread-char 18:16:46 I want to invoke (read), but the starting #" is missing from the stream IE it contains 'foobar"#' 18:16:51 Oh, nevermind 18:16:55 but it's not clear that it's allowed to use unread-back on the character passed to reader macro functions 18:17:03 I'll simply append the strings and use READ-FROM-CHAR 18:17:23 er, R-F-S. 18:18:03 p0a: search for read-delimited-string, either in c.l.l or just using google 18:18:17 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:28 or apropos, it's likely that you've got a lib installed which uses that function internally 18:19:09 any ideas on how to do version control and rollout for database schemas ? i am incrementally developing an app and my current strategy of using pgadmin3 for database design doesnt seem to be scaling up 18:19:26 konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has joined #lisp 18:22:06 serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06d717.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:12 good evening 18:24:00 -!- sellout [n=greg@pool-141-157-182-132.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 18:24:48 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-235.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 18:28:17 Dawgmatix: I use a migration scheme of .sql or .lisp files in a migrations directory, named by date and time, and a table in the db that knows which migrations have been applied. 18:28:48 On app startup, the app checks and makes sure it was built with the same schema as the db, otherwise it migrates the db to the correct schema. 18:29:01 *Xach* takes notes 18:29:03 okay 18:29:21 i have (:up ...) and (:down ...) in those files, so i can go both ways.... 18:29:40 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.192.23] has quit [] 18:29:47 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-385681.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 18:30:11 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:30 and that's about it really. 18:30:31 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:31:08 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:56 that sounds good actually, especially the checks about schema version in the app 18:33:43 Dawgmatix: that's the important part really... i build images and upload them to our servers, so i usually build with a 'new' version and expect the app to update the production db. 18:34:15 (after backing up, of course!) 18:34:18 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:21 :) 18:34:42 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:35 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:36:36 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:36:46 Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has joined #lisp 18:36:47 *crawls back into a cave to code* - thanks drew 18:37:08 Dawgmatix: no problemo 18:39:56 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:29 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-117-28.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:42:22 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-20.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:43:09 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:44:45 malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@78.86.9.252] has joined #lisp 18:45:14 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@78.86.9.252] has left #lisp 18:45:34 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:35 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:46:55 rares [n=rares@130.13.176.255] has joined #lisp 18:47:07 -!- rares [n=rares@130.13.176.255] has left #lisp 18:47:42 good cheap fast-setup VPS host in europe? 18:48:18 for sbcl, right? 18:48:40 you never know :) 18:50:10 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:50:19 malcolm_reynol-1 [n=malc@78-86-9-252.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:50:24 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:14 lukego: The Tech Co-op! 18:51:21 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["bye bye"] 18:51:36 (actually... i don't think we have any free space left on our european servers) 18:51:41 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:51:42 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 18:52:04 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-kjbotpwsqzifbuyf] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:52:05 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 18:52:18 ..... nope... they're all full. 18:54:53 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:55:04 -!- rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:55:05 divisionby0 [n=division@88.238.180.156] has joined #lisp 18:55:21 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:55:26 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-ucohcifdtnsnoksi] has joined #lisp 18:56:38 i've installed cmucl on debian, i can't load a system to cmucl, it says it can't find the system, where should i put the files for cmucl to find them 18:57:10 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 18:57:23 divisionby0: how did you try to load a system? 18:57:34 i mean to say (mk:compile-system :foo) where should i put the foo folder :) 18:58:25 mk? oh well 18:59:07 Talking about type-spcifiers that can be used for method specialisations: list and cons both are symbols naming classes, so they can be used. "list" differs from "cons" only by including "()", right? Is there a particular reason, why "cons" has higher precedence that "list"? 18:59:35 I guess because it includes "less". 19:00:07 or is "more specialized" (by not including the empty list). 19:00:42 cons is a subclass of list 19:01:01 oh that makes sense 19:01:34 that's why it's more specific 19:01:50 drewc: bummer 19:02:04 *demmel* should have looked at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node273.html 19:02:55 demmel: You can just C-c C-d h on cons 19:02:57 Xach: sorry, i wasn't exactly loading, my mistake, i was trying to compile the system, but i don't know which folder to put the system in. 19:03:19 demmel: it'll open an html site where you have a choice between possible meanings of cons, and one is system class 19:03:33 demmel: and on that page, you'll see the "class precedence list" 19:04:46 redblue [i=star@ppp014.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:05:05 levy: I don't have much luck today, trying to build hu.dwim.home 19:05:30 tcr: yeah i know C-c C-d h. I just was not fully aware of how builtin types are represented as classes to play together with clos, so I didn't look there. But you're right I should have ;) 19:05:30 Thanks guys. 19:06:07 levy: compiling syntax-sugar.lisp gives me an "illegal function call" 19:08:39 kami-, sorry about that, some more info? 19:09:00 kami-, the head does compile for me, not that it helps you in any way 19:09:05 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 19:10:04 marioxcc [n=user@201.132.50.52] has joined #lisp 19:11:38 -!- divisionby0 [n=division@88.238.180.156] has left #lisp 19:11:47 illegal function call probably means that he hasn't loaded some macro, or reader macro 19:13:39 levy: I pulled everything from head 2 hours ago. There might be a mismatch between what you have in your source tree and what I have. 19:14:12 -!- malcolm_reynol-1 [n=malc@78-86-9-252.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 19:14:25 kami-, sure, but I don't remember anything like that and from that error I can hardly help 19:15:53 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 19:15:59 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:48 lukego: i can highly recommend bytemark.co.uk 19:17:56 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:18:18 we have a few dedicated servers with them, and the service has been excellent. 19:18:27 serichse1 [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06d717.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:31 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-175-139.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:18:50 levy: when did you pull the non-dwim libs? 19:19:24 francogrex [n=user@91.181.251.134] has joined #lisp 19:20:22 Hi, did anyone find out if inlining assembly code in common lisp code is possble in any implementation (beside corman lisp)? 19:20:35 francogrex: uh... yes? 19:20:58 Krystof gave you an example of that in SBCL, and I gave you an example in CCL 19:22:44 Adlai: the sites you refrred to were not accessible anymore (they were tmp) the last time i checked 19:22:56 and i didn't make a local copy 19:23:08 rbancroft [n=rumble@174.0.43.116] has joined #lisp 19:23:40 Adlai: sorry i didn't go into details to realize there was really assembly code embedded there 19:23:56 kami-, not very recently 19:25:10 francogrex: here you go: 19:25:17 levy: OK. I'll try to revert and test again. 19:25:20 http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/rot.lisp and http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/rc5.lisp 19:25:50 kami-, I'm issuing a pullstuff and see what happens with hu.dwim.home after an rmfasl 19:27:10 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 19:27:24 -!- seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:27:24 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 19:27:38 ok got it.thx. Now to understand this :) 19:27:49 doesn't look like standard asm 19:27:54 no, it isn't 19:28:12 a lot of it (the first link) is information for Python 19:28:39 i see. In Corman it seems you can use more familiar asm code inlined 19:29:55 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06d717.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:30:09 the advantage of this system is that you're actually just extending the SBCL compiler 19:30:37 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 19:30:52 Adlai: true, and maybe modifying it? 19:31:01 seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:14 for example if one thinks a certaij code can be better optimized 19:31:19 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 19:31:26 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 19:31:54 kami-, all of my dwim projects are in sync wrt. push/pull except wui, you also need to get hu.dwim.common 19:32:05 kami-, non dwim projects are pulled 19:32:11 kami-, I'm doing a clean rebuild now 19:32:30 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:32:50 levy: I sent the pullstuff patch to the ML which is what I did before the compile errors. 19:33:41 francogrex: I think you'd then tell the compiler how to optimize it correctly. I'm not familiar enough with SBCL to know how, though. 19:33:42 in the sbcl manual I don' see this sb-vm package described 19:33:52 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:33:59 kami-, ok, I apply that before 19:34:05 Adlai: ok 19:34:14 in CCL, you can inline assembly to do whatever you want 19:34:33 simonh [n=simonhol@89.243.231.36] has joined #lisp 19:34:51 Adlai: I assume also CCL specifix assembly ade for its compiler right? 19:34:52 however, there are conventions about what registers can contain Lisp objects and what can contain immediates, and if you break those conventions, you might run into trouble. 19:35:04 yes 19:35:22 sounds like they need to implement more accurate gc maps 19:35:36 or only gc at safepoints 19:35:37 kami-, eh that's a long list ;-) 19:36:06 slava: in CCL, every instruction is a safepoint 19:36:17 that's kind of overkill IMO 19:37:04 slava: maybe they too want to support arbitrary signal handlers. 19:37:25 pkhuong: wouldn't it be sufficient to queue up signal handlers and run them at the next safepoint? 19:37:52 levy: I put them each on one line by purpose. Changes are then easily visible in the diff. 19:38:14 slava: if they're deferrable 19:38:29 cads [n=max@c-24-30-55-172.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:29 pkhuong: what's a case where they're not? 19:38:29 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:38:41 -!- cads [n=max@c-24-30-55-172.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:38:42 slava: sigsegv? 19:38:42 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 19:38:51 nullman` [n=nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:57 writing a lisp handler for sigsegv sounds pretty strange 19:39:09 cads [n=max@c-24-30-55-172.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:13 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-52-218.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:40:01 Hey, anyone here familiar with the structure of the mathematica programming language? 19:40:14 -!- nullman [n=nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:40:53 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:42:45 There's one guy, Xah Lee. He likes mathematica a lot. 19:42:45 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-34-203.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:42:50 doesn't seem to be online, though... 19:43:32 thanks :) 19:43:57 Y: I had used mathematica 19:44:18 and xah lee doesn't come around here 19:44:23 fortunately 19:44:27 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-53-69.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:44:30 hah 19:45:03 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@129.21.41.18] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:45:12 not a big fan ot mathematica anymore 19:45:27 fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 19:45:43 stassats: oh he did in past 19:47:02 well I'm not going to rant talk about the language here, but I recently learned that mathematica programs are just expressions and that they are representable as lisp style nested expressions of prefix operators 19:47:21 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 19:48:01 cads: there's an interesting post by kmp regarding wolfram, mathematica, an macsyma 19:48:07 slava: someone at SRI uses that, at least. 19:48:42 kami-, hmm, I'm wondering where cl-yacc is used 19:48:50 -!- borism [n=boris@195.50.199.134] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:49:04 clpython uses it 19:49:11 to define a grammar for the python language 19:50:11 levy: plexippus-xpath 19:50:20 levy: and cxml-rng 19:50:25 levy: and jwacs 19:50:52 oh, sorry I wasn't clear... where is it used in the dwim projects 19:51:15 boo 19:51:20 mathematica is a black box; it is designed to be so by the commercial people who made it 19:51:21 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:51:48 LiamH: Hey, great that you fixed the bug 19:51:53 if you wan lisp style use the maxima CAS 19:52:17 if you want 1970s lisp style use maxima 19:52:25 Sikander: NP. Are you able to compile/run that function now? 19:52:37 LiamH: I'm going to try now. 19:52:38 LiamH: have you tried static-vectors ? 19:53:18 fe[nl]ix: not yet; it will be a while unfortunately. Are they all ready to go on SBCL? 19:53:23 LiamH: I don't have much time... During the day I pretend to be an experimental physicist, at night I pretend to be a theoretical physicist, and that leaves lisp coding for, well... 19:53:44 Sikander: tell me more! 19:54:05 Krystof: There's not more to tell :( 19:54:12 oh come now 19:54:15 Sikander: Understood. I think having the FFT would be cool, but I'm not in a rush. 19:54:28 I learnt Lisp (and lots of other stuff) as Theoretical Physics work-avoidance 19:54:40 heheh 19:54:54 Well, I can't avoid work, I'm supposed to publish, dammit 19:55:03 I actually use lisp in my work, but don't need FFT at the moment. 19:55:09 knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has joined #lisp 19:55:11 Sikander: postdoc? 19:55:19 Krystof is this 1970 style? to_lisp(); MAXIMA> (loop repeat 10 collect (random 1.0)) 19:55:19 19:55:28 Krystof: yep 19:55:50 Krystof: you? 19:56:09 tenured, but in CS. I abandoned the physics ship after doing too much speculative theory 19:56:16 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-52-218.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 19:56:31 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-52-218.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:56:31 I say "CS" but really I'm just the only person around who knows what a computer is 19:56:49 (I still need to publish from time to time :-) 19:57:07 Ok, but tenure... that's at least a load off your mind. 19:57:12 yes 19:57:17 I'm still struggling :( 19:57:18 I highly recommend it :-) 19:57:22 LiamH: I think that they are 19:57:36 Sikander: if it's any consolation, I remember how you feel 19:57:46 fe[nl]ix: OK, it's on the TDL. 19:58:07 what's so struggling on that point of time? You have to fullfill some quota on publications? 19:58:10 Krystof: The only consolation would be a guarantee that there's light at the end 19:58:33 tcr: well, you have to "prove" yourself 19:58:52 publications, wildly insane experiments, ... 19:59:17 tcr: for me or for Sikander 19:59:18 Did I mention publications? 19:59:26 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:59:43 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-52-218.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 19:59:52 *Krystof* finds Sikander's thesis, discovers that it's not actually all in Dutch 20:00:28 Krystof: Both of you 20:00:29 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-52-218.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:00:38 or "in general" 20:01:11 Krystof: d'oh! 20:01:31 francogrex, the mathematica language as I understand it is basically a term rewriting system with pattern matching, as such it's pretty neat to play around with 20:01:33 My performance is measured, to the extent that it is, in terms of (a) how much money I can bring in to the institution (through grants &c) (b) how high-quality my research dissemination is (through publications) and (c) how much prestige I can add (through participating in the academic and wider community) 20:02:16 francogrex, wolfram irks me as much as the next guy, but it's not as if i've ever paid them a dime 20:02:20 kami-, this one finished without errors /home/levy/hu.dwim.build -d -w hu.dwim 20:02:30 if I fail to score highly on (a)-(c), but mostly (a) with some (b), then when the department's research is assessed as a whole for government funding, we lose out, and it is difficult for me to justify either promotions or new jobs elsewhere 20:02:41 of course all the judging criteria are unstated and a bit random 20:02:51 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-52-218.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 20:02:56 gdoteof [n=gdot@sbhsa32.ma.burl.vt.sover.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:00 LiamH: I'm looking for fftw3 bindings, but only found some that seem abandoned. Did you have any specific one in mind for api compatibility? I think api consistency with bordeaux fft seems more interesting at this point. 20:03:01 cads: if you say so (I don't know where you got your information since the source code is unavailable). But one would assume that in #lisp there might be a slight tendency to discuss lisp based systems such as maxima or axiom... 20:03:02 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-52-218.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:03:03 in Sikander's case it's worse, because he doesn't even have the security of an Actual Job 20:03:25 (ToT) 20:03:36 instead when his current contract runs out he must convince some tenured academic (like me) with a grant that employing him would be a good bet for that academic on the production of some (b) and maybe (c) 20:03:51 i.e. Sikander's publications generally count towards his employing academic's (b) 20:04:00 this is a completely nutty system 20:04:23 Sikander: Not at all. I meant API compatibility with GSLL. I just had this vague idea there were bindings floating around, but I don't remember where I saw them. Anyway I'm more interested in GSL's FFT at this point, for completeness. 20:04:23 Well, I can always work in the grocery store in my home town. 20:04:25 Sikander: the good news is that I doubt I will understand your thesis :) 20:04:46 and you probably won't understand mine! Yay publications! 20:04:49 Krystof: Don't worry, neither did I ;) 20:04:55 I am *starting* out with lisp, going through Practical Common Lisp. I am still trying to get familiar with the Slime/emacs environment. Right now, C-c C-c - i am getting "Compilation finished: 2 warnings".. how do I get emacs to tell me what those warnings are? 20:04:59 "We gratefully acknowledge many useful discussions with Gert 't Hooft." 20:05:03 I think you've just won 20:05:13 Krystof: No, that's a different 't Hooft 20:05:17 Krystof, is it really so bad to be an academician? 20:05:20 oh, sheesh 20:05:21 rather i am *just* starting out 20:05:32 Krystof: The one you're thinking of is Gerard 't Hooft 20:05:35 Sikander, send me a copy as well? 20:05:41 so I am. well, you fooled me :-) 20:05:46 Heheh! 20:05:48 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:05:54 geeze that's a close match, I was thinking of that same 't hooft as well 20:06:06 Sorry guys :) 20:06:09 cads: no, it isn't 20:06:31 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-67-34.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:06:45 it's a life that I think suits me quite well; I don't really have an entrepreneurial bent, and I enjoy the fact that I can try to understand things that aren't commercially relevant in any way to anyone 20:06:55 Seems almost as rational a choice as trying for professional sports. 20:07:07 how's your thesis going? 20:07:11 Well, my thesis is 5 years old and not interesting. I was just an idiot for wasting 3 years in industry after my graduation... 20:07:28 you went back to physics after that? That's good going 20:07:37 what did you do in industry? 20:07:38 my thesis is also 5 years old! 20:08:05 That's why I'm still a postdoc. I lost 3 years in industry that I could have spent in academia getting tenure 20:08:06 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-94-26.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:08:10 (ToT) 20:08:48 ruediger [n=ruediger@93-82-12-234.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:08:48 cads: I was working for a small company that provides support for future ESA missions 20:09:05 kami-, starting from that image (develop-system :hu.dwim.home) finished without error, then I did (startup-server *home-server*) and the gui showed up 20:09:19 I'd just like to say that writing external-format tests is very dull, and I wish that Other People had written them when they implemented the external formats 20:09:20 kami-, how do you build hu.dwim.home exactly? 20:09:56 Sikander: hey, that's cool. Did you do any Planck stuff or was that all over by the time you started? 20:10:06 levy: with build.sh. I didn't build hu.dwim.build first. 20:10:20 demmel1 [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 20:10:28 Krystof: mostly over. I was working on stuff that won't fly for at least 10 years. LISA was one 20:10:37 I'm betting that can be very involved , but were you getting to do physics research? 20:10:40 *Sikander* is worried that he's getting too far off-topic. 20:10:54 quix [n=quix@c-24-60-190-249.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:12 Sikander: meh, topic, shmopic: fundamental physics is on topic for everything 20:11:17 Krystof: I try to generalize my testing in such a way that it's fun! I recently got extreme joy out of http://paste.lisp.org/display/88832 20:11:20 one would hope :) 20:11:26 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-178-132-211.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:35 kami-, I don't think that matters much, I think this error might be an asdf non-determinism issue 20:11:52 cads: it was mostly working closely with scientists to see what the type of science can be extracted and if it's possible to build an instrument/experiment to do that type of science 20:12:11 E.g. on LISA we were very interested in cosmology 20:12:19 levy: how can I build the hu.dwim.build executable? 20:12:34 LISA as a partner experiment to LHC 20:12:46 kami-, either with a previous hu.dwim.build or with build.sh 20:12:47 build.sh -e hu.dwim.build? 20:12:57 kami-, that should work 20:13:06 that actually sounds pretty challenging and fun, if yu're actually thinking about what kind of payload to carry and stuff 20:13:11 drewc: Hi, I tried pushing to the repo, but darcs gave an error, that it couldn't obtain the lock. Do I need to do some sort of activation for my account? 20:13:52 drewc: that's probably some kind of permission problem. I have to leave now. You're root, so feel free to fix any permission problem. 20:14:13 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 20:14:23 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:14:26 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:14:38 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 20:14:39 cads: Yes, no deep engineering for me, though. I suck at that, and others were much better. I was more interested in fundamentals and what can be done in the space that we had on the satellite 20:14:57 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 20:15:06 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-058-015.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:18 levy: hu.dwim.build builds :) But ../hu.dwim.build -d -w hu.dwim.home gives an error, which I'll paste. 20:15:52 I'm constantly fighting with myself on whether i should focus on pure abstract math, or if I should focus on the kind of theory one needs to develop engineering disciplines and then go on to specialize in some engineering subfield that gets my interest 20:16:04 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:16:08 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 20:16:45 cads: You should do what you find interesting. 20:16:50 kami- pasted "dwim build" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89004 20:16:58 what Sikander says 20:17:15 the life of a researcher is ok; the life of a researcher who isn't interested in what they're researching is terrible 20:17:33 -!- demmel [n=Adium@guestradig1.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:17:54 *Sikander* agrees with Krystof. 20:18:55 cads: I know a guy who doesn't really like what he's doing. He's constantly complaining, and when things don't work out or don't get published, he's convinced that there's a conspiracy. 20:19:28 I kind of see that about academia though 20:19:46 okay so i am in emacs, i compile my file, hit C-c C-z and it brings me to the lisp prompt. but somehow i screwed something up.. it says CLISP at the top but i want to get it reset to a new prompt.. is this possible? 20:19:53 LiamH: Everything seems to work great 20:20:08 Sikander: Good news! 20:20:11 :h doesn't bring up help 20:20:24 and why should I care if i'm published... oh wait, because if i'm not getting published than I don't get t do science... I'd really like to do sciecne whether or not academia is interested in what I'm doing 20:20:27 :h shouldn't work in slime 20:20:34 gdoteof: what does it mean to reset to a new prompt? 20:20:42 are you in inferior-lisp buffer or in slime-repl? 20:20:53 cads: then marry someone with a large fortune 20:20:55 Xach, i am not sure. i had something like CLISP(1)> before 20:21:02 if the former, you need (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) 20:21:06 but i did something and deleted over it 20:21:09 now i can't run commands 20:21:10 LiamH: I'll get all of the FFT stuff in in the following days and put the branch up somewhere 20:21:40 http://pastebin.com/d6391246f 20:22:03 stassats, i am not sure? i thought it was slime-repl 20:22:11 kami-, could you try this ./hu.dwim.build -d -w hu.dwim 20:22:14 Sikander: cool 20:22:20 gdoteof: it's not 20:22:38 what you've pasted isn't a slime-repl 20:22:47 stassats, did you see my pastebin? how do i get back to a clean.. uh whatever im at 20:22:50 Krystof, but I'm an ugly bastard :) 20:22:56 stassats i got there with C-c C-z 20:23:05 after C-c C-c my lisp file 20:23:12 which compiled with no warnings 20:23:16 gdoteof: that binding apparently does not go to the slime repl, because what you pasted is not the slime repl. 20:23:21 gdoteof: it is the inferior lisp buffer. 20:23:37 Krystof, you're a CS researcher? 20:23:40 well there used tobe a prompt there before i deleted over it 20:23:43 with backspaces 20:23:56 gdoteof: Try going to the slime repl buffer instead. 20:24:22 C-c C-z should bring to the slime repl, if slime-repl is loaded 20:24:28 -!- s0ber [i=pie@220-136-229-143.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:24:42 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 20:25:15 gdoteof: do you have (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) in your .emacs or at least (slime-setup '(slime-repl)) ? 20:25:17 cads: sort of 20:25:58 I sometimes claim I still do physics: most of what I do is constructing systems that sometimes work and looking at graphs 20:26:00 s0ber [i=pie@118-168-237-38.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:03 Krystof: what sort of stuff do you do? Aside from lisp-ing 20:26:08 ah 20:26:12 stassats.. i just closed emacs and reopened it this is what i get now when i hit C- c C-z 20:26:15 http://pastebin.com/d5c36f57b 20:26:22 which i think is what i want 20:26:25 -!- demmel1 [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:26:31 Krystof: what are your thoughts on tcr's sequence-iterators thing? 20:26:31 but I work in the context of groups and projects that look at computational analysis and treatment of music in its various forms 20:26:35 but my question is how to i get back to that once i scrweed somethign up 20:26:41 sykopomp: insufficiently unportable! 20:26:46 (I don't have any solid thoughts) 20:26:53 gdoteof: it's most probably not what you want 20:26:56 :D 20:27:13 *sykopomp* is wondering if it's the sort of thing a series could be implemented on... 20:27:16 this is my .emacs http://pastebin.com/d3f2e8cb9 20:27:25 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 20:27:38 stassats, alright 20:27:55 right, replace slime-setup with (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) 20:28:38 k. do i just restart emacs or can i get it to reload .emacs 20:28:40 without exiting 20:28:44 Krystof: I find your thesis more difficult to find; I see all sorts of people with the same name! 20:28:53 Krystof: (Unless you're in medicine as well) 20:29:01 gdoteof: you can hit C-x C-e after the last ) in (slime-setup ...) 20:29:24 I am not! hit #2 in google for "christophe rhodes thesis" works for me 20:29:43 stassats, thanks 20:29:44 and then do M-x slime-list-connections and hit enter on clisp (i guess it should work..) 20:29:45 and suggests that my recent publications list needs updating 20:29:47 Krystof: d'oh, I can't read, I added an r to the end of your name 20:29:56 C-c C-z brings me to the same thing 20:30:01 inferior-lisp 20:30:10 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 20:30:25 -!- quix [n=quix@c-24-60-190-249.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:31:05 okay 20:31:07 now it's going 20:31:18 i restarted emacs and it brought me now to slime-repl clisp 20:31:21 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-18-43.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:31:39 ok 20:31:40 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:31:45 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 20:32:02 Krystof: Branes... Yikes! 20:32:08 they were fashionable once 20:32:13 stassats, thanks 20:33:37 minion: tell gdoteof about slime.mov 20:33:39 gdoteof: look at slime.mov: "using SLIME" video by Marco Baringer, http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 20:33:46 should be helpful for you 20:36:30 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:36:49 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:36:56 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 20:38:37 Krystof: yes, they were. I understand that string theory is now in decline (when it comes to positions anyway)... 20:39:53 Krystof: I reckon that it's because theory moved too fast and LHC keeps breaking (or, as I understand from the NYT, the Higgs boson keeps breaking it) 20:39:53 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:40:03 ;) 20:40:48 heh 20:40:57 theory certainly moved way too fast 20:41:19 -!- nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:41:38 my thesis is essentially about how if you ignore the fact that you have multiple free functions in your theory, you can just about constrain it enough that you might be able to rule out some of the choices of free parameters from the Planck CMB observations 20:41:59 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:42:07 Krystof: ah, Kolmogorov-type stuff? 20:42:09 I think I put it slightly less cynically in the document 20:42:15 heheh 20:42:23 no, a specific family of models 20:42:28 ah 20:42:41 good night 20:42:44 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06d717.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:43:15 kami-, I can't reproduce that error, try setting *break-on-signals* to t 20:43:41 don't set *break-on-signals* to t 20:43:51 set it to error if you must 20:46:04 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 20:49:07 clbuild will certainly be used as a hiding place on the path to singularity.. 20:49:08 Krystof, eer, right 20:49:18 levy: I just tried ./hu.dwim.build -d -w hu.dwim 20:50:35 kami-, result? 20:50:36 er, cl-launch 20:51:17 kami- annotated #89004 "dwim build" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89004#1 20:52:33 kami-, that must be something with sbcl 20:52:47 kami-, you probably use a different version than me 20:53:05 1.0.31.29 20:53:33 kami-, hmm, same here, except I use the git repo on dwim.hu 20:53:47 kami-, I don't think there's anything related to that 20:54:12 it's probably an SBCL_HOME issue 20:54:16 levy: can you paste the result of ls in your workspace? 20:54:36 levy: SBCL_HOME is not set, here 20:55:01 kami-, that's ok, but the build tool must be able to find it out when execing sbcl 20:55:34 it calls run-sbcl.sh which is provided with sbcl 20:56:10 elliotstern [n=chatzill@129.21.41.18] has joined #lisp 20:58:34 levy: I'll try with SBCL_HOME set to ~/workspace/sbcl/contrib 20:58:34 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:59:06 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:59:11 kami-, you could also try the same arguments with build.sh 20:59:19 that skips the exec part 21:02:01 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:02:06 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 21:02:52 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:03:15 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:05:06 -!- _YKY_ [i=YKY@n11649160157.netvigator.com] has left #lisp 21:06:43 malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@78-86-9-252.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:06:43 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:07:18 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:07:27 malcolm_reynolds: I've started to look at your branch. 21:09:03 LiamH: great! Probably a lot needs to be rewritten, like maybe using generic functions instead of my own type-based dispatch.. but I was fairly happy in that slices seem to work, and be quite easy to use 21:09:23 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:10:00 malcolm_reynolds: Sikander suggested looking at the numpy functions as a guide. I'm not familiar with it, but he passed along a link to their documentation. 21:10:21 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@129.21.41.18] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:10:29 -!- Blaay [i=Blay@BSN-143-124-210.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [] 21:11:20 yeah I might do that, I've not used numpy but i hear good things 21:11:33 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:11:33 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:11:53 http://www.scipy.org/Numpy_Functions_by_Category#head-247cf212da5667c10c2f8395e3da63292e199341 21:12:05 -!- simonh [n=simonhol@89.243.231.36] has left #lisp 21:12:56 i guess python already has slice syntax built in so it's easy for numpy to overload 21:13:17 malcolm_reynolds: I'm still uncertain how to organize it. I noticed that you made a separate system and package. 21:13:55 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:14:41 yeah. that was just for convenience, obviously up to you if you think that's a good idea 21:15:01 malcolm_reynolds: I'm not familiar with python at all. I know there's a slice syntax in Fortran, but I really don't know how useful it is. I think it stems from a desire not to copy. I guess if you have humongous arrays, it's a concern, but for my purposes, it seems easy enough to copy. 21:15:37 GSL has a whole concept of a "matrix view" which avoids copying and which I haven't tried to port, but I've thought about. 21:15:40 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.58] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:16:36 yeah that's the kind of thing that I assume takes deep knowledge of how the data structures are stored and accessed.. aka something I can't really help you with 21:16:49 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:17:11 Oh, not looking for help, just wondering about whether it's worth the effort. 21:18:32 is a view something which you can treat as one normal matrix, but maps to some arbitrary elements of a bigger matrix, in such a way that modifying elements in one modifies the other? 21:19:14 Here were some thoughts Tamas Papp had: http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/gsll-devel/2008-April/000138.html 21:19:53 LiamH malcolm_reynolds: I'd be interested in helping out with adding at least the functionality of numpy. But probably in a separate package, built around gsll. 21:19:57 SimonH [n=simonh@89.243.231.36] has joined #lisp 21:19:58 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:20:23 You might also want to look at the whole thread; he developed some general ideas there. 21:20:28 yeah that might be a good plan 21:20:39 at first i just had a few matrix macros 21:20:39 levy: with SBCL_HOME set to ~/workspace/sbcl/contrib, it works 21:20:51 but then the idea of slices was mentioned and that turned out to be easy (ish) 21:20:59 A view is a "submatrix", like the row of a matrix without copying. 21:20:59 ...and now there's a bunch more ideas 21:21:09 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:10 levy: although I didn't set it last time. And it worked, too. 21:21:13 kami-, the whole build or just the hu.dwim? 21:21:21 okay.. but could you get a view that was row zero and row 2 of a larger matrix? 21:21:23 levy: hu.dwim for now 21:21:30 will the slices be merged into master? 21:21:50 kami-, that's just half of it 21:22:05 Sikander, malcolm_reynolds: I've pulled Malcolm's changes into another branch in my repo, but I haven't merged anything in yet. 21:22:13 kami-, this is what I use after that /opt/hu.dwim.home/hu.dwim.build -i /opt/hu.dwim.home/workspace/hu.dwim.environment/core/hu.dwim.development.core -e -w -l -p hu.dwim.home 21:22:23 -!- Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 21:22:35 kami-, the core file should have been written somewhere there 21:22:56 I'm going to try to merge what I have with what Malcolm has, and then maybe dig into the numpy stuff to see where we can go with it. 21:22:56 LiamH: I think it would make sense to make a new package, that depends on gsll, where all this matlab/numpy stuff is merged. That would keep gsll clean. 21:23:02 LiamH: oh yeah and when I made the announcement I got an email from another guy interested in helping out with this kind of thing once he's got past a conference deadline. Probably makes sense to form another library, given the increased scope of this thing. 21:23:03 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:23:06 Sikander: yeah, definitely 21:23:09 kami-, you can also provide --sbcl-home to hu.dwim.build 21:23:38 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:24:10 malcolm_reynolds: Maybe eventually. I think with the focus on GSLL compatibility now it should stay where it is. 21:24:25 kami- annotated #89004 "syntax-suger one-liners" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89004#2 21:24:40 yeah. until there is enough functionality to make it a worthwhile separate download, else there will be no users / feedback / interest 21:24:41 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:24:52 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 21:25:23 I more or less had the intent that GSLL be purely interface to GSL, everything else can go in a different (related) system. But the logistics of that is hard, and for now it's more convenient to keep it together. 21:25:40 levy: that's where it hangs now. But, I cannot continue, now. Thank you for your help. I will continue tomorrow. 21:25:59 Plus, the GSL linear algebra tests require the ability to make matrices, so I will need a dependence on that system. 21:26:05 LiamH: Why is the logistics hard? Can't we make a new project that depends on gsll? Or do you expect major api changes in gsll 21:26:17 -!- SimonH [n=simonh@89.243.231.36] has left #lisp 21:26:19 kami-, ok, hopefully ati can provide you more help, see you tomorrow 21:26:29 LiamH: ah. that dependency thing is a problem. 21:26:35 good night, #lisp 21:26:42 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has left #lisp 21:26:54 so potentially the very basic matrix creation macros stay in GSLL, but more ambitious stuff to match numpy is separated? 21:26:56 Sikander: I'm thinking of users having to download multiple systems. 21:28:04 LiamH: I see. But users of the matlab-type package would download that and, of course, its core which is gsll. People interested in only a library binding, could just get gsll without all the matlab/numpy cruft 21:28:11 There is a notion in git of subprojects, so presumably you can keep different repos tied together into a sort of meta-repository, but I'm not sure how to do that in practice. I'm new enough to git that the merging/updating of Malcolm's branch was a big learning experience (and I didn't get it quite right). 21:28:34 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has quit [Client Quit] 21:28:34 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:28:47 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:29:02 Sikander: Agreed, but getting to the point involves git changes I've not used before. 21:29:03 LiamH: heheh, this is the first time I made a branch in git, for the fft! 21:29:09 Ok 21:30:03 Sikander: I found git-remote-branch very useful for that kind of thing. 21:30:35 LiamH: Not sure if you covered this or not, but there's the notion of git externals, you don't need to include the other git repositories. 21:31:07 TDT: oh? not familiar with that, sounds promising. 21:31:19 LiamH: http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-submodule.html 21:31:40 LiamH: Oh, git-remote-branch? dammit, how does that work... Git is awesome, but also scary 21:31:45 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:31:52 Sikander: hold on, trying to find the url 21:31:56 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:33:20 Sikander: It's one of those things that ought to be part of git, but isn't. http://github.com/webmat/git_remote_branch 21:33:33 LiamH: D'oh! Thanks 21:33:44 TDT: Ok, I do remember reading about that, but I've not tried it before. 21:34:17 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 21:34:19 Sikander: note you need to have ruby installed 21:34:41 LiamH: yeah, I use it a bit here and there with my own projects that are in different repositories. I also use it for org-mode and my settings repository, so when I update my repository, it updates org at the same time 21:34:56 LiamH: Oh, dude, ruby?! 21:35:12 *Sikander* asks the Gods... WHY?! 21:35:23 haha 21:35:32 Sikander: that's the way the author wrote it :-) 21:35:36 Heheh 21:35:53 It strikes me that it could have been written as a shell script pretty easily, it's not very complicated. 21:36:01 Yeah, I'm sure people are asking themselves "Common Lisp.. Why" as well 21:36:26 That's what I thought as well. It seems to just use git commands 21:36:27 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:36:29 Well if I were writing it, I probably wouldn't use CL, I'd use bash. But I didn't. 21:36:34 Not sure I'd use CL for this kinda project. 21:36:41 *TDT* agrees with LiamH 21:36:55 *Sikander* thinks that his statement was misinterpreted. 21:36:57 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:37:10 I just meant for any type of project. 21:37:14 I think you meant in general, Sikander, and that's not a bad question :) 21:37:20 :) 21:37:35 But maybe you also meant in general, why ruby and not just bash? 21:37:41 heheh 21:37:58 meh, for this project, I looked at the source, bash could have worked well. 21:38:18 TDT: do you by chance have a bash port lying around? :) 21:38:22 The dependency on ruby, and this being a gem, I see as being a problem overall. If anything, it should have been written in Perl, like the rest of Git is. 21:38:38 Take a look at http://muness.blogspot.com/2008/11/git-things-i-love-and-manipulating.html to show the convolution of git with remote branches and how grb fixes that. 21:39:11 *LiamH* thought git was written in C 21:39:33 the core is 21:39:40 but lots of plumbing in perl, I believe.. 21:39:45 Sikander: I gota check my bag of goodies :) 21:40:02 TDT: pun intented? The rubyists call their programs gems (ruby, gem, get it?) 21:40:07 m4thrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.177] has joined #lisp 21:40:47 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 21:40:47 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:40:48 *sigh* 21:40:51 LiamH: heh 21:41:03 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:41:15 didi [n=user@189-68-56-226.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 21:41:42 My guess is beach tabbed back to the chat, only to notice an incredible amount of off-topic discussion. 21:42:24 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:42:26 My guess is beach is overworked with non-fun tasks (i.e. not programming in Lisp) 21:42:30 LiamH: but grb does what it says in that link, right? So it creates a branch in the remote repository as well? Is that allowed? I mean, I can't push to your repository... 21:42:47 TDT: Nah, the *sigh* was more about my in ability to contribute to Lisp as much as I would like. 21:43:00 beach wishes he was a physicist 21:43:01 LiamH: Pretty close. 21:43:02 Sikander: You will fail if you try to do it to a repo you don't have commit rights on. 21:43:24 Krystof: Sometimes, yes. Also a mathematician. 21:43:31 yeah, dang LiamH was a lot closer than I thought. And I agree with you beach - my focus at work right now is extremely fragmented, which is frustrating to a large degree 21:43:49 Sikander: grb is a great convenience, it doesn't break authorization/security protections. 21:43:50 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:44:16 LiamH: Yeah, but grb would fail as well then, since it will try to create the branch in the remote repo as well 21:44:19 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.25] has joined #lisp 21:44:29 Sikander: indeed 21:44:39 *Sikander* scratches his head. 21:45:02 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has left #lisp 21:45:08 Sikander: the moral is, only push to a repo you have commit rights on. 21:45:09 LiamH: So what's the difference of just making a local branch and, once I feel no one will laugh at my code, publish that branch somewhere? 21:45:19 ropert [n=user@CPE00222d12ee72-CM00222d12ee6e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:45:42 Sikander: that's what grb does for you. If you rely on bare git, it's rather convoluted, surprisingly. 21:46:06 Hmm...it's not that bad, I use git all the time, and pushing once the code is stable isn't bad. 21:46:12 I'm referring to a non-master branch here; with a master branch it's pretty straightforward. 21:46:34 TDT: right, to master. To non-master it's not so easy. 21:46:39 My setup is a bit odd though, where I tend to have a stable branch for my push to whatever, then merge from master as time goes on. Then my .git/config has the push location to a public repo, such as github. 21:46:53 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [] 21:46:53 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:46:58 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:47:10 LiamH: ok, I get it. In that case, since I'm on github as well, I can put it there. 21:47:15 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:47:29 LiamH: Wait, that would mean I'd have to make a branch off of malcolm_reynolds 's repo 21:47:44 This is getting complicated... 21:47:47 yeah 21:47:49 No, branch off of my master please. I will worry about merging everything in. 21:47:55 *Sikander* scratches his head some more. 21:48:05 LiamH: ok... 21:48:33 maybe we should make a repository on the repo.or.cz service 21:48:36 dammit, it would be much easier if LiamH was on github as well 21:48:38 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:48:42 or what malcolm_reynolds said 21:48:45 because you can have multiple commiters on the same repo there 21:48:48 malcolm: I have one. 21:48:52 ASau [n=user@85.141.214.92] has joined #lisp 21:49:02 would you be willing to give us commit access? 21:49:24 I guess you'd want to see something of mine first before giving me access... 21:49:29 Sure, but I think what we have now works, since you already have a repo on github 21:49:37 okay 21:49:47 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:50:08 multiple people commiting on the same branch is kinda a bad idea, just saying...you increase the number of conflicts with the increase of people - plus the introduction of bugs that will impact others. 21:50:14 LiamH: Is it possible for me to create a branch on repo.or.cz? 21:50:18 The only thing I request is that you make your own branch(es) and that we each respect the others' branches. 21:50:29 yeah that's what i had in mind with malcolm-utils 21:50:43 I have been using distributed version control systems (bzr, git) for years now, there are good ways to shoot yourself in the foot real quick if you're not careful. 21:50:47 TDT: This is why I said we each respect the other's branches. 21:51:02 i.e., don't commit to them directly. 21:51:25 malcolm_reynolds: but since you already started on github, and I already pulled from there, that's keep going with that 21:51:35 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735218.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:36 okay, will do 21:51:39 LiamH: What I meant was, github has this great feature, where you just create a fork, commit to it and send a pull-request to the original author 21:51:40 -!- ASau [n=user@85.141.214.92] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:51:52 Since Sikander hasn't made a repo yet, he can add to the repo.or.cz repo 21:52:07 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:52:27 Ok, sounds like a plan. 21:53:10 Sikander: I don't think repo.or.cz does that, it's a little bit simpler. But as long as the project is fairly small, an email or #lisp request seems like it would suffice. 21:53:45 LiamH: Sure, makes complete sense. 21:54:08 OK I'll look in to adding both of you as committers. I know there's a provision called "mob" that allows anyone to create/commit to a special branch called "mob" but I think I'd like to avoid that. 21:54:37 First up you'll have to have a user name on repo.or.cz, and let me know what it is. 21:54:55 lol, RoR on github has 741 forks 21:55:54 LiamH: just done, i'm malcolm_reynolds there 21:56:09 fe[nl]ix: Amazing! 21:56:12 not an epic internet name but i've spent enough years going by 'malcster' that it's definitely an improvement... 21:56:21 fe[nl]ix: A lot of people I know create a fork rather than actually contribute to it...just to watch it. I'm not sure why. 21:57:11 fe[nl]ix: I have a coworker here who does, but when I asked him why he does what he does - it came down to habit of sorts...I bet the number of contributers is far less than 741 as a result. 21:57:16 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:57:23 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:57:24 ignotus [n=ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 21:57:36 there is a video visualisation somewhere of commiters to ror, it's pretty epic 21:57:56 malcolm_reynolds: there's one of git, too, which is pretty nice 21:58:07 hello, how can I convert latin1 encoded string to utf8 in SBCL/ 21:58:09 ? 21:58:31 minion: tell ignotus about babel 21:58:32 ignotus: have a look at babel: Babel is a charset encoding/decoding library, not unlike GNU libiconv, but completely written in Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/babel 21:58:37 minion: tell ignotus about flexi-streams 21:58:39 ignotus: please see flexi-streams: FLEXI-STREAMS is a library which implements "virtual" bivalent streams that can be layered atop real binary/bivalent streams. http://www.cliki.net/flexi-streams 21:58:50 Adlai: thank you 21:58:51 hmm, I think babel is what you want. 21:59:12 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:34 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.181.251.134] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:00:30 Alabaman_ [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:34 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:02:55 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 22:03:09 knobo` [n=bohmersp@90.149.4.182] has joined #lisp 22:04:02 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.171.129] has quit ["..."] 22:06:09 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:06:57 LiamH: ok, so I created a username on repo.or.cz: soemraws 22:06:57 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:07:06 levy [n=levy@89.223.171.129] has joined #lisp 22:07:10 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:07:22 Sikander: OK, thanks. 22:07:43 LiamH: If I were to be ready to put the branch up, do I make a new project and put the branch there? If so, how do I name it? 22:09:32 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:09:36 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 22:10:17 Sikander: You can do one of two things, you can fork the project (make a new repo), or once I give you commit rights, you can make a new branch in my repo. 22:10:53 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:11:16 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:12:03 -!- knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:12:11 If you were going to make a new repo, you could fork anywhere, like github, as Malcolm did. 22:13:42 LiamH: I think it's frowned upon on github if you make a new repo that's not forked from the one that's already there. I.e. to be "sociable", I would have to fork malcolm_reynolds 's repo, giving you a nice time sorting out the merge :) 22:14:18 magius_pendragon [n=alokbaik@cpe-075-182-122-126.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:15:16 is there a reason sbcl would queue up standard-io messages and not display them until the form is finished? 22:15:29 those messages are buffered, I think 22:15:43 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:15:45 clhs finish-output 22:15:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_finish.htm 22:15:47 clhs finish-output 22:15:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_finish.htm 22:15:47 it's not doing it on my desktop, but my laptop is currently running faster, but it's buffering the messages 22:15:47 you can do (force-output *standard-io*) or whatever the name of the stream is 22:15:55 ahh thanks 22:16:08 Sikander: no, please only fork from my master. Where you host it doesn't really matter, but a merge is going to crazy if you fork off of something different than my master. 22:16:09 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 22:16:55 Sikander: anyway your FFT should be a clean addition, I presume you are making a new file or new files in a new directory. 22:16:55 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:16:59 LiamH: Exactly :) So I'll fork off yours and put in on repo.or.cz. I guess I'll have to name it differently (I don't understand how repo.or.cz works, I think) 22:17:05 -!- magius_pendragon [n=alokbaik@cpe-075-182-122-126.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:17:11 LiamH: Yep, modules, like in your gsll.asd 22:17:23 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:17:24 LiamH: I even found your comment about fft, and replaced that 22:17:43 Sikander: Good. Do you prefer to make a branch in my repo? 22:17:46 Sikander: is your fft a complete implementation? or bindings to fftw or similar? 22:18:08 bindings to gsl fft. 22:18:16 ah cool 22:18:27 I hope to add (in a different project) to add fftw3 bindings that are api compatible 22:18:37 (I can't find any fftw3 bindings atm) 22:19:06 yeah, correct me if I'm wrong but fftw is the fastest free implementation? 22:19:11 LiamH: No worries now. Let me finish this up, try to fork and if all else fails, I'll try reading the manual. 22:19:16 malcolm_reynolds: well, in the west, yes 22:19:30 I don't know what the folks in the east are doing... 22:19:34 gonzojive: may I ask why you forked iolib ? 22:19:38 Sikander: haha 22:19:38 Sikander: well I'll add you as a committer and then you can decide. 22:19:56 malcolm_reynolds: that's what it stands for, seriously 22:20:00 LiamH: Great, I guess it's cleaner if I work on a fork in your repo. 22:20:10 LiamH: branch 22:20:17 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust936.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 22:20:18 Sikander: good 22:20:32 LiamH: I have a local one called fourier-experimental which I'll push to you in due time 22:21:02 malcolm_reynolds: I think fftw is even competitive with commercial implementations. 22:21:02 malcolm_reynolds: http://www.fftw.org/, second paragraph 22:21:13 The Fastest Fourier Transform in the West 22:21:35 presumably the East has a faster one? 22:22:01 Hehe, I think it's a play on the Fastest Gun in the West. 22:22:25 I know, joke 22:22:25 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 22:22:42 I guessed, but with some people, you never know ;) 22:22:44 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-214-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit ["disconnet"] 22:23:10 if you go to http://dwim.hu/project/hu.dwim.rdbms and select the dictionaries tab and open the transaction dictionary, how do you like that? 22:23:41 where to find help on loop's keyword 'then'? 22:24:06 the source for that can be viewed seen at http://dwim.hu/file/hu.dwim.rdbms/documentation/rdbms.lisp 22:24:15 in the description about for keyword 22:24:31 leo2007: http://l1sp.org/cl/6.1 22:25:39 hendrix [n=hendrix@host-85-118-227-114.academ.org] has joined #lisp 22:26:02 -!- hendrix is now known as rus_socialist 22:27:36 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229144154.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 22:29:32 Xach: thanks 22:33:22 *Xach* has sussed it 22:35:25 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:35:36 demmel [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-203-107.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:09 levy: this looks odd in safari 22:36:34 antifuchs, under linux? 22:36:44 ah, no, os x 22:36:56 I can only test with konqueror 22:37:27 -!- ferada [n=user@g224151143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:37:37 ah, they both use webkit, so hm. 22:37:37 unfortunately I don't have a mac, and there's no virtualization 22:37:43 levy: safari under linux? 22:37:50 antifuchs: I thought konqueror still used khtml. 22:38:54 oh, on reload, it looks ok. dunno what was up with that. 22:39:03 (ah. hovering makes everything go yellow) 22:39:20 antifuchs, what does odd mean? because the design is odd enough just by itself 22:39:39 yeah, it looks like it's by design. 22:39:43 -!- greyhame [n=jao@200.Red-83-43-32.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 22:40:02 I was confused because hovering turns lots of unrelated things yellow. thought that was a bug, looks intentional though (: 22:40:42 hovering over a symbol that names a function should show a popup 22:41:00 it does. nice! 22:41:01 the background of that popup is yellow, but the code should be there 22:41:31 I was confused a step earlier, before selecting the transaction dict 22:42:10 <_3b> is make-transaction supposed to show the code 3 times like that? 22:42:11 I was hovering over the nav bar at the bottom, and that was trippy (: 22:42:36 *_3b* assumes it is due to having 3 definitions in 1 form 22:44:15 _3b, that is clearly a bug 22:44:30 it should show all methods including the generic definition 22:44:31 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.204.100] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:44:47 from all places, but without duplicates 22:44:48 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 22:44:51 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-52-218.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:45:39 *_3b* wonders what i did to get the 1700 line popup of cffi stuff 22:45:47 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-104-235.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:46:46 <_3b> and how to make it go away again for that matter 22:46:57 -!- demmel [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-203-107.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:47:22 <_3b> ah, opening another popup got rid of it 22:47:46 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-235.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 22:48:05 -!- kupad [n=kupad@dsl254-079-179.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:48:06 if you want to take a look at the server's state: http://dwim.hu/status 22:48:14 this is a sessionless entry point 22:49:54 <_3b> ah, i guess oci:trans-rollback was probably responsible... might want to limit the size of the popups 22:50:34 malcolm_reynol-1 [n=malc@78-86-9-252.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:51:16 _3b, sure, need to put a note somewhere 22:51:29 oh I just realized I broke Demo/User interface under chrome, but it works fine under ff 22:51:42 the opening gadgets disappeared from the tree... 22:54:39 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-235.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 22:57:14 *levy* needs a spectator mode on dwim.hu 22:57:28 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@78-86-9-252.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:57:55 anyway, I'm leaving, good night 22:58:07 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:36 -!- jeti [n=jeti@84.142.179.142] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:58:37 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.171.129] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:59:36 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:01:02 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 23:02:02 nurv101 [n=nurv101@85.247.85.12] has joined #lisp 23:02:06 -!- drgnvale [n=acristin@209.16.73.144] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:02:38 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 23:03:38 -!- malcolm_reynol-1 [n=malc@78-86-9-252.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 23:03:52 Sikander, malcolm_reynolds: you are added. 23:04:02 phf [n=user@c-76-124-103-85.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:50 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp014.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 23:07:46 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:08:58 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:10:36 <_3b> does sbcl compile the macro functions of each macro in a macrolet every time that macrolet is evaluated? 23:11:02 -!- knobo` [n=bohmersp@90.149.4.182] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:11:16 malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@78.86.9.252] has joined #lisp 23:11:21 <_3b> or possibly every time it is compiled i guess 23:12:30 redblue [i=star@ppp043.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:12:48 <_3b> or maybe i mean every time sb-walker walks it 23:12:58 *_3b* isn't quite sure what i mean 23:15:55 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:16:29 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 23:16:46 -!- ``Erik [i=Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:17:15 ``Erik [i=Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:12 demmel [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-203-107.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:56 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-058-015.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:25:50 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:28:00 LiamH: Great, thanks. 23:28:08 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@78.86.9.252] has quit [] 23:28:29 malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@78-86-9-252.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:28:42 malcolm_reynolds: I added you to repo 23:28:53 LiamH: great, thanks 23:28:55 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:29:03 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 23:29:21 do you know what the best way to get my branch onto repo.or.cz is? do I just add that site as another remote and push? 23:29:33 But for your current branch, do updates to github. I'm finding pulling different branches challenging enough without switching hosts at this point. 23:29:42 sure, that suits me 23:30:19 Yes, you add another remote, but I'm going to recommend #git or the web for details, because when your remote and pulled I flubbed it. 23:30:27 I added 23:30:39 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 23:30:45 i'm not sure what i'm going to tackle next (I could spend ages rewriting my slice implementation but I want to wait for feedback on it first) but I will spend some time tomorrow looking over numpy and seeing what looks like simple and useful functionality 23:30:56 yeah, i'll check with #git when it comes time to do anything serious 23:30:59 Actually the initial fetch was fine, but when you updated I tried to keep up and messed it up (not in a huge way, I was able to fix it). 23:31:40 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@84.131.232.237] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:31:49 yeah, i use git for pretty much everything I do but I've never really done any collaborative development with it. so i will tread carefully. 23:31:54 OK. For the time being look in linear-algebra/matrix-generation.lisp to see what I've started with. 23:32:00 kupad [n=kupad@dsl254-079-179.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:38 -!- galdor [n=galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:32:58 yeah, i had a look over that. a lot of that is very similar to my matrix-loops.lisp, so I guess it just comes down to whether people want to use macros or closures 23:32:59 Actually, now that I think of it, I think it's OK for both of us to work on a non-master branch, as long as we're communicating about what we're doing. 23:33:18 sure. well i'll keep on malcolm-utils until you say otherwise 23:33:30 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-78-067.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:33:59 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 23:34:06 I think if we don't need to change the syntax, macros should be avoided. 23:34:39 my only concern is that presumably that must have some runtime cost 23:35:24 I think this kind of functionality is going to be useful to people doing serious number crunching, and so being able to squeeze all the performance out of the hardware is important 23:35:26 minimal 23:35:41 s0ber_ [i=pie@118-160-170-151.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:02 Anyway the compiler can inline it if it feels it's a good idea. 23:36:17 I trust the compiler writers. 23:36:36 *LiamH* bows towards SBCL authors 23:36:39 but yeah, i'll take your word for it. my knowledge of what is fast in lisp versus what is not so fast is entirely based off intuition and probably all wrong 23:37:26 "premature optimization is the root of all evil" comes to mind -- many optimizations I've tried prior to measurement turned out to make things *worse* 23:38:07 okay, fair enough 23:38:19 didi pasted "read ints until EOF" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89015 23:38:26 Could someone help me with a simple algorithm? I would like to read integers from the input until I hit EOF. But I would like to use recursion, not while or for loops. 23:38:27 Even simple things like let-binding an expression to avoid recomputation actually makes things slower sometimes. 23:38:53 LiamH: yikes :/ that really hurts my head 23:39:14 The paste is what I have so far. But I just have a list with the same initial list appended N integers time. 23:39:43 malcolm_reynolds: My thinking is that pipelining is so good, and lookups can be bad, that you win by recomputing. 23:39:59 <_3b> didi: think about what conditions your recusrion needs to handle 23:40:24 LiamH: I guess that makes sense. but yeah, either way I reckon the sbcl crew have this in hand. 23:40:27 _3b: It has to stop when parse-integer returns a nil. 23:40:38 <_3b> didi: and if it doesn't? 23:40:52 _3b: I have to insert that number in the list. 23:41:06 LiamH: presumably you aren't opposed to using macros in order to define lots of related functions at once? 23:41:16 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-213-82.taconic.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:41:25 malcolm_reynolds: see defmfun 23:41:27 elliotstern [n=chatzill@129.21.41.18] has joined #lisp 23:41:32 <_3b> didi: ok, so first thing you probably want to do is store the result of parse-integer somewhere, so you can check it and decide what to do with it, LET might be helpful for that 23:41:33 right, that's what I thought 23:41:49 -!- demmel [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-203-107.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:41:54 billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-213-82.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:59 *didi* google "let" 23:42:05 <_3b> clhs let 23:42:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm 23:42:27 if you don't know what LET is you are in serious troubles 23:42:39 malcolm_reynolds: it is used 986 times 23:42:41 stassats: I am JUST learning lisp. 23:42:55 LiamH: I'm not sure if you've looked at my implementation for mslice yet, but I thought a macro is the only sane way to do it. having 2 index arguments each of which can be 3 types means 9 functions, as soon as another one needs adding it's 16 functions.. 23:43:09 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 23:43:15 One day I'll track down the one guy who must be spreading the idea that you should find basic information about a language by searching the entire web. 23:43:25 m_r: I took a quick glance, I'll take a closer look at it later. 23:43:54 didi: you need to read some book, not ask question on irc or searching with google 23:44:00 minion: tell didi about pcl 23:44:01 didi: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 23:44:10 -!- phf [n=user@c-76-124-103-85.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 23:44:39 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:45 stassats: I know about PCL, thank you. I am experimenting with the language. I don't know how this is a bad idea. 23:45:11 yeah no worries, no rush. it's probably the most macro-y code I've written so far, and i know it 'works' on enough test cases to make it worth sharing, but I would appreciate any advice on how to write it in a better way 23:45:26 <_3b> didi: experimenting is good, but if you don't at least learn the basics first, asking for help here is less good :) 23:45:29 OK. Got to go home now, talk to you later. 23:45:35 cool, laters. 23:45:48 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@78-86-9-252.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 23:45:53 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:45:58 _3b: Well... I thought I had. :-( 23:46:56 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:47:05 <_3b> didi: also, what do you expect that CONS form to do? 23:47:10 <_3b> (in your paste) 23:47:20 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:28 -!- cads [n=max@c-24-30-55-172.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:48:36 _3b: Hum. Append cells? I was using (append) but then I found out that (cons) was having the same effect and I didn't need to create a list to do it. 23:49:13 borism [n=boris@195.50.199.134] has joined #lisp 23:49:36 <_3b> didi: right, cons is probably better here than append, but what are you trying to add to the list? 23:49:57 <_3b> (and which of the arguments that you pass to CONS is supposed to do that?) 23:50:45 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:26 <_3b> didi: also, if you expect CONS to modify an existing list, you should go back and read more about that too :) 23:51:50 -!- Alabaman_ [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:51:53 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-168-237-38.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:53:04 _3b: I would like to add the read int to the list. But since was not able to retain (until now) the value of the int I thought I would insert it if it was not a nil. But I think I see what you mean. I am returning the list, not the int read. 23:53:33 _3b: You're right. I don't really understand what cons do. 23:53:59 it creates a cons, surprisingly 23:54:09 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:54:10 stassats: :-) 23:54:59 ace4016 [i=ace4016@76.170.129.134] has joined #lisp 23:56:39 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-18-43.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."]