00:00:36 Guthur: rm the fasls 00:00:36 ya i'm an idiot, should have tried the obvious, i rename the old folder and it rebuilt 00:00:50 pkhuong cheers though 00:01:26 -!- avigesaa [n=avigesaa@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:01:30 -!- sysfault [n=exalted@m375736d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:02:09 well, I suppose for my uses, I will use equal-hashing 00:02:27 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:03:39 i hope uni gets the linux install sorted soon, i don't fancy trying to set this up on windows 00:03:52 looks like I should either forget about hash-consing or implement my own hcons distinct from cons, or else I will not improve the complexity of the beast 00:06:38 Fare: with your own hcons, you can add a slot for a consistent unique id value instead of the address and avoid rehashes. 00:08:08 -!- billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 00:10:43 kafkaesk [n=kafkaesk@88.238.223.232] has joined #lisp 00:11:37 (do ((n 0 (1+ n)) (cur 0 next) (next 1 (+ cur next))) ((= 10 n) cur)) 00:11:52 can anybody tell me what kind of an exp this ((= 10 n) cur) 00:11:59 clhs do 00:11:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_do.htm 00:12:55 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:51 so the (= 10 n) part is the condition? 00:14:03 ok 00:14:06 thanks 00:14:08 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:16:13 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@91.194.72.7] has left #lisp 00:17:31 -!- kafkaesk [n=kafkaesk@88.238.223.232] has left #lisp 00:19:16 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 00:20:07 Douglish pasted "What is the difference?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88869 00:21:23 Douglish: why do you do the second ,@body ? 00:21:57 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 00:22:49 <_3b> lambda forms are special in the operator position 00:22:51 madnificent: That's the main body, isn't it? And the one stored in self is just "a copy". 00:23:38 _3b: So is there any way how to simulate that? 00:23:50 <_3b> or rather 'lambda expressions', looks like 'lambda form' is the case where a lambda expression is in the operator position 00:23:56 Douglish: no 00:24:01 <_3b> what are you trying to do? 00:24:13 <_3b> you could write a code walker or something 00:25:06 Exercise. Create a macro alambda that create anonymous function as lambda does but adds reference to self by "self". 00:25:13 Douglish: you're also binding self to something, that's imperfect... never encountered the being special about the lambda though 00:25:31 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.155.177] has joined #lisp 00:25:35 <_3b> Douglish: well, ALAMBDA still does that, not being able to call the results directly is a different issue :) 00:27:01 Right, anyway in the assigment isn't anything about calling. :) 00:27:50 jmbr [n=jmbr@230.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 00:27:56 <_3b> the problem is that the operator isn't evaluated in CL (unlike scheme), so the macro doesn't get expanded 00:28:32 <_3b> try FUNCALL or APPLY 00:28:33 So I have to call it using funcall. 00:28:39 <_3b> right 00:28:56 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-121-175.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:31:02 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-159-131.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:02 _3b, madnificent and fe[nl]ix: Thank you :) 00:32:30 yw Douglish 00:37:13 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 00:42:53 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:45:19 -!- ephcon [n=ephcon@c-24-63-201-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:45:35 ephcon [n=ephcon@c-24-63-201-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:53 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has quit [] 00:47:38 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 00:49:03 -!- ephcon [n=ephcon@c-24-63-201-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:54:31 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 00:55:38 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-241-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:57:15 pkhuong, I'll probably end up doing that -- problem being, then I'll need my own portable hash implementation 00:58:09 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 00:58:15 Fare: why? Hash on the uids (or use GENHASH). 00:58:22 (I want to intern "states of the (lisp) world") 00:58:27 doh -- you're right 00:58:50 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:59:09 thanks 00:59:27 -!- kenpp [n=kenpp@188-221-10-184.zone12.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:59:28 I'll probably also use TTH for that, and be done. 00:59:40 froydnj, you here? How's tth coming along? 00:59:54 (otherwise, I'll keep using tthsum) 00:59:55 minion: tth? 00:59:56 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``tth''. 01:00:05 Fare: ? 01:00:52 minion, tth is Tiger Tree Hash http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hash_tree#Tiger_tree_hash 01:00:53 i agree - tth is tiger tree hash httpen wikipedia orgwikihash_treetiger_tree_hash 01:01:01 minion: tth? 01:01:02 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``tth''. 01:01:09 Fare: colon, not comma. 01:01:14 thanks 01:01:16 minion: tth is Tiger Tree Hash http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hash_tree#Tiger_tree_hash 01:01:17 i agree - tth is tiger tree hash httpen wikipedia orgwikihash_treetiger_tree_hash 01:01:24 minion: help 01:01:25 There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms". 01:02:13 redblue [i=star@ppp101.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:02:23 minion: add "tth" as: Tiger Tree Hash http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hash_tree#Tiger_tree_hash 01:02:23 OK, done. 01:03:40 thanks 01:04:09 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:04:16 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-4-48.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:08:46 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:09:55 is there a way to automate exports for asdf? 01:15:07 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:15:13 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@230.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:15:21 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:10 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:18:56 -!- mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6F01A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:22:44 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-121-175.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 01:27:45 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-222-139.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:28:44 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.196.19] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 01:33:08 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:33:54 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 01:35:00 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:59 fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 01:43:30 ephcon [n=ephcon@c-24-63-201-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:09 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-222-139.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:03 -!- ephcon [n=ephcon@c-24-63-201-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:45:16 ephcon [n=ephcon@24.63.201.220] has joined #lisp 01:45:41 -!- ephcon [n=ephcon@24.63.201.220] has quit [Client Quit] 01:51:26 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:51:30 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-235.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 01:51:33 haha- [n=haha-@121.80.138.101] has joined #lisp 01:52:00 -!- haha- [n=haha-@121.80.138.101] has left #lisp 01:52:02 haha- [n=haha-@121.80.138.101] has joined #lisp 01:52:53 fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 01:54:57 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:57:43 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:58:10 superjoe [n=superjoe@129-219-191-61.nat.asu.edu] has joined #lisp 01:58:18 is there a function to remove a specific value from a list? 01:58:36 clhs remove 01:58:36 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm 01:58:39 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-159-131.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:58:55 man, google is useless for lisp 01:59:01 thanks 02:01:49 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 02:02:30 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:02:54 -!- qed [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-babofhxjszqhmpqm] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:02:57 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 02:03:05 qed [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-skzgdlyshthqmrqc] has joined #lisp 02:06:52 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:14 billitch [n=billitch@78.236.153.65] has joined #lisp 02:12:38 i wonder if my g1 can run lisp 02:13:18 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.180.3] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:14:08 g1 as in? 02:14:28 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-5de570d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:14:43 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:15:27 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:16:50 p_l: googphone 02:16:50 ephcon [n=ephcon@c-24-63-201-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:44 ah, this one. Yes, you can run ECL, CLISP and probably GCL. I don't know about state of SBCL/arm. 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[n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:34:48 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:53 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:37:38 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-121-175.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:38:34 -!- TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:39:39 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:41:26 Good morning! 03:41:27 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:41:59 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:42:02 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@88.73.236.183] has joined #lisp 03:42:04 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 03:42:16 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:20 http://pastebin.com/d1f738934 03:45:26 what's the difference between A and "A"? 03:46:22 <_3b> A is a symbol, "A" is a string ? 03:46:33 that is bizzare 03:46:39 <_3b> why? 03:46:49 until just this second I thought they were the same thing 03:46:55 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:47:03 how is a symbol not a string? 03:47:16 a symbol's name is a string 03:47:39 the symbol itself is a structure with other properties besides its name 03:47:47 hmm 03:47:53 that makes me feel uncomfortable 03:47:56 <_3b> a string is an array of characters 03:48:13 <_3b> #\A is a character, which is neither a symbol nor a string 03:48:39 <_3b> but A is named by the string "A" which is an array containing the character #\A 03:49:16 a symbol (among other things) might belong to a package 03:49:38 thanks for the clarification 03:49:40 sepult [n=levgue@87.78.121.175] has joined #lisp 03:50:02 a symbol might name a variable, which might have a global value 03:50:16 (Lisp isn't non-Aristotelian; just punny) 03:51:37 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:52:21 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:54:01 <_3b> also, note that you can't (or at least shouldn't try to) modify the name of a symbol, but you can change the contents of strings 03:54:43 <_3b> (well, you probably shouldn't modify literal strings either, but that is a different issue :) 03:55:05 there's always a catch 03:55:24 <_3b> yep, throw wouldn't be much use otherwise :) 03:55:33 :) 03:55:55 it's amazing how hard it is to make a non-hedged general statement about a lot of these issues 03:56:03 <_3b> yeah 03:56:45 <_3b> but that's why we use programming languages instead of english 03:57:35 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-241-156.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:57:51 -!- kerimbasol [n=kerim@85.107.138.156] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:58:51 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:01:10 -!- sepult [n=levgue@87.78.121.175] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:03:23 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:07:28 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:08:11 -!- haha- [n=haha-@121.80.138.101] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:09:56 how does one convert a string to a number? 04:10:19 clhs parse-integer 04:10:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_parse_.htm 04:10:31 superjoe: parse-integer might be what you're looking for 04:10:36 yes, thank you 04:10:46 I tried to find it for 10 minutes before asking 04:10:55 kerimbasol [n=kerim@85.107.137.28] has joined #lisp 04:14:38 of course, that only works with integers 04:15:06 read-from-string might be useful for other kinds of numbers 04:16:40 <_3b> but only if you trust the string, since it can read other things you might not like as well :) 04:19:09 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:23:53 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:57 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.183] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:27:49 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:31:43 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 04:32:19 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:32:22 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 04:33:51 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.155.177] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:48:26 -!- kupad_ [n=kupad@dsl254-079-179.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:51:04 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:54:02 -!- Guest10123 is now known as umopepisbn` 04:55:02 -!- umopepisbn` is now known as umobepisdn` 04:55:35 -!- umobepisdn` is now known as umopepisdu` 04:58:05 -!- umopepisdu` is now known as umopepisdn` 04:58:51 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 05:02:18 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zqqgyelffejgaflc] has joined #lisp 05:02:41 -!- ski [n=slj@c-c110e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:04:13 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 05:07:03 is it possible to store updateable state in a closure, will defparameter work? 05:07:36 <_3b> closed over state can be modified, not sure how defparameter is involved in that though 05:08:43 oh ok i thought that closed over state might have to remain static 05:08:48 -!- Nshag [i=user@193.248.203.163] has quit ["Quitte"] 05:09:02 _3b cheers 05:09:23 <_3b> (let ((a 1)) (lambda () (incf a)) 05:09:26 <_3b> (loop repeat 10 collect (funcall *)) 05:09:43 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zqqgyelffejgaflc] has left #lisp 05:11:04 Guthur: What made you think that? 05:11:24 <_3b> or you could put multiple functions in the closure, and each would see the same state 05:11:33 beach inexperience probably, hehe 05:15:24 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-iectgvubwqblngrk] has joined #lisp 05:15:51 the only other brief experience i've had with closures was javascript 05:16:16 <_3b> same should apply there too 05:16:39 _3b ya it does, i remember using it 05:16:56 suppose i should have remembered that 05:17:31 it was quite a number of months ago though 05:22:42 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-iectgvubwqblngrk] has left #lisp 05:23:52 beach you are awake very early, do you always start at this time 05:24:00 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 05:24:40 guthur: The key to understanding 'closures' is to remember that they're actually 'lexical closures'. 05:26:02 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:29:28 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:29:57 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 05:30:55 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:56 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@80.187.108.84] has joined #lisp 05:31:47 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:33:56 zhivago, cheers 05:36:19 Levenson [n=Levenson@91.185.12.110] has joined #lisp 05:42:11 it is a rather new and novel concept for me, the javascript experience withstanding, i suppose it was the fact that i was capturing upvalues and then using the returned closure later. Makes sense now 05:44:06 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:50:42 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 05:57:07 Levenson pasted "clsql" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88878 05:58:54 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 05:58:59 Is it normal? Or there is a more clever variant to create tables? I'd like to see sql-like script in lisp. 05:59:50 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:59:51 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@91.185.12.110] has left #lisp 06:00:12 Levenson [n=Levenson@91.185.12.110] has joined #lisp 06:01:59 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:05:38 Ok, climacs is loadable (once again) and now launchable via desire. 06:05:44 -!- Hun [n=hun@217.86.190.93] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:07:14 wlr [n=walt@65.96.92.150] has joined #lisp 06:08:52 Back to bootstrapping xcvb using it.. 06:11:11 Levenson: I don't know the answer, but I do know that your code is badly indented and contains some non-idiomatic constructs. 06:11:30 Levenson: For one thing, you don't do (equal nil ) but (null ) instead. 06:13:14 Levenson: Furthermore, you either align arguments to a function horizontally or vertically, but not a combination of the two. So here *standard-output* should be aligned under the `(if' and both whoud be indented as arguments to write-string. 06:13:58 s/whoud/should/ (can't type today) 06:14:47 beach: hmm thanks. But this punctuation is badly because of repl. I wrote it in emacs repl, 06:15:10 beach: In my lisp file it's normal. 06:15:27 -!- wlr [n=walt@65.96.92.150] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:15:48 Levenson: Then please paste your Lisp file instead so that people who might know the answer to your question have a slight possibility of reading your code. Right now, that is pretty hard. 06:17:13 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.52.134] has joined #lisp 06:17:42 Levenson pasted "clsql-correct" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88879 06:18:19 beach: take a look at this please. 06:20:22 Athas [n=athas@80.161.87.214] has joined #lisp 06:24:29 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 06:26:35 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.52.134] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:27:36 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@59.167.195.42] has quit ["leaving"] 06:35:09 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:35:30 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.53.171] has joined #lisp 06:35:43 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:36:00 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.220.32.230] has joined #lisp 06:43:03 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-113-231.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:44:00 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:09 Levenson: Looks much better, except that :database db should be aligned under `(concatenate' 06:44:17 mishoo_ [n=mishoo@86-124-78-220.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 06:44:51 Levenson: You might want to use format instead of concatenate. 06:45:33 beach: Ok, I will try. 06:46:16 Levenson: And instead of an `if' without and `else' branch, it is better to use `when'. 06:46:45 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 06:47:32 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:48:11 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:48:11 Levenson: I know very little about programming relational databases, but it seems like the function that this code is part of should not return the success string, which instead should be part of a user interface of some kind. 06:48:31 Levenson: Though I am saying that without knowing the role of your function of course. 06:50:06 beach: This is the part of web-based of some interface, where we are creating a database, so i think thatuser should know about the problems. 06:50:37 web-based interface* 06:50:42 <_3b> Levenson: are you looking for http://clsql.b9.com/manual/create-table.html ? 06:51:06 _3b Yes. But i don't whant to use [] 06:51:54 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.53.171] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:52:53 <_3b> ah, don't know then, i usually use postmodern when i want sql 06:53:20 <_3b> though wouldn't "" work in place for [] for that case? 06:54:40 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:55:48 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.154] has joined #lisp 06:55:48 Levenson: did you consider using a (:no-error ...) clause in your handler-case? 06:57:32 good morning 06:57:33 hello mvilleneuve 06:58:43 beach: Well i tried to catch it with execute-command, but it does not return any value in success way. I use it with create-database and it's works fine. 06:59:37 aigon [n=ojof@92.84.1.211] has joined #lisp 06:59:42 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:00:40 Levenson pasted "full" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88880 07:01:42 -!- mishoo_ [n=mishoo@86-124-78-220.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:01:43 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:01:59 mishoo_ [n=mishoo@86-124-79-181.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 07:02:05 InvisibleTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 07:02:06 I'm two-month newbie in lisp so.. =) Here is a full version of function. 07:02:15 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:05:17 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:07:04 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.220.32.230] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:09:05 -!- drago`` [n=user@82.113.121.154] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:09:47 Levenson: I can only give superficial remarks because I don't exactly know what you are trying to do. Instead of writing a newline char, you can use (terpri), or you can stick a ~% in your format string. I also see considerable code duplication, such as the (handler-case (execute-command ...) (sql-database-error ....)) You might want to abstract that out into a (possibly local) function. 07:10:12 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 07:11:08 What can people tell me about the difference between lisp-unit and CLUnit (and possibly some other unit-testing frameworks)? 07:13:14 beach: http://aperiodic.net/phil/archives/Geekery/notes-on-lisp-testing-frameworks.html 07:14:08 lichtblau: Exactly what I need! Thanks! 07:14:28 Stefil and FiveAM are the more popular frameworks at the moment IIANM (for those who aren't running a trivial codebase like rt.lisp or something handwritten) 07:16:01 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:17:48 iminsik [n=iminsik@24.16.135.172] has joined #lisp 07:17:56 -!- iminsik [n=iminsik@24.16.135.172] has left #lisp 07:18:18 iminsik [n=iminsik@24.16.135.172] has joined #lisp 07:18:35 -!- iminsik is now known as lispnewbie 07:20:54 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:22:40 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229241177.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:25:20 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:32:35 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.222.57] has joined #lisp 07:33:56 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-70-158.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:39:01 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-5-194.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:39:20 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:40:56 Reav_1 [n=Reav_1@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 07:41:00 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-19-159.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:43:04 Does anyone have any documentation for FiveAM (other than the source code)? 07:50:23 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 07:50:53 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:50:57 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:53:44 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:53:44 male_terran [n=terran@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:37 morning 07:55:55 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-unfrtbsaxaoowhdb] has joined #lisp 08:00:47 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:01:12 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:01:14 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:02:17 h3 [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 08:02:33 hello Krystof 08:02:38 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:03:00 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@wavelan-98.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has joined #lisp 08:03:20 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.208] has joined #lisp 08:04:44 -!- mishoo_ [n=mishoo@86-124-79-181.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:05:09 Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has joined #lisp 08:07:34 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:08:30 mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6C054.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:40 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 08:11:25 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-237-98.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 08:13:01 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:13:38 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-177-77-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:14:20 aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:15:05 -!- Reav_1 [n=Reav_1@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:15:10 -!- mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6C054.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:15:35 is ltk still the best option for a quick free cross-platform lisp gui? 08:15:48 and has anyone seen problems trying to use it within slime? 08:16:16 Reav_1 [n=Reav_1@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 08:17:48 mishoo_ [n=mishoo@86-124-79-155.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 08:18:30 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 08:18:39 -!- h3 [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:22:59 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@wavelan-98.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:23:11 vsync: It might be that CommonQt is usable cross platform too. 08:23:11 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:24:06 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:25:32 -!- InvisibleTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 08:25:49 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-117-28.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 08:27:18 Ok, with the latest^1 ASDF (1.366) and latest asdf-d-g I still get the infinite asdf-find-system-of-death recursion. 08:27:30 I guess I can't duck it any longer. 08:27:32 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:29:41 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-unfrtbsaxaoowhdb] has left #lisp 08:33:36 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:35:14 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nwkoqimumnbmzsqz] has joined #lisp 08:37:30 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:37:33 ski [n=slj@c-d413e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:37:35 QinGW3 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:38:22 *beach* wonders if he should use lisp-unit instead just to encourage people to write documentation. 08:38:43 write documentation for lisp-unit? 08:38:54 no for FiveAM 08:38:57 Ah. 08:39:03 are you sure that'll have that affect? 08:39:05 effect. 08:39:09 Nope :) 08:39:14 Heh. 08:39:26 beach: FiveAM has API documentation on its project page 08:39:41 lichtblau: I didn't see any. 08:39:44 *beach* looks again 08:40:42 Engineering seminar coming up. Wonder if I should try to get some Limp hacking done. 08:40:42 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:40:51 -!- lispnewbie [n=iminsik@24.16.135.172] has quit [] 08:41:12 lichtblau: found it! Thanks! 08:41:13 a bit off-topic, has any of you managed to properly import a svn repos w/ branches into a git repos for github? 08:41:20 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.129] has joined #lisp 08:41:20 hm. I should try #git. sorry. 08:41:25 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:41:48 hey guys 08:42:01 I've got a friend interested in CL but is beign put off by emacs 08:42:05 *fusss* has just seen #+never in code .. is this typical? :-) 08:42:16 he's a long-time windows/VC++ user and the transition is a bit too sharp for him 08:42:16 Ralith: LispIDE on Win32 is nice 08:42:26 fusss: thanks, will check it out 08:42:29 LispIDE + clozure should kick ass 08:42:47 Able maybe. 08:42:55 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:43:39 fusss: oh, cool, I've already got him on clozure 08:43:40 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:43:53 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 08:43:59 -!- aigon [n=ojof@92.84.1.211] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:44:18 i have built my local subset of cliki with clozure on win32 this morning and it just works .. 08:44:34 including nearly all ediware 08:44:56 tic: you use git svn locally, then simply push the branches you need to github 08:45:44 fe[nl]ix, yeah, got that part OK. Forget about github. :-) The problem was of getting git-svn to properly import my branches and tags. 08:47:18 Ralith, can you get him to your computer and show the way you work? 08:47:57 tic: that's a whole different can of worms. try the online git book 08:48:08 deepfire: he's casually looked over my shoulder a few times, I think; he has no idea what's going on. 08:48:22 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:48:58 Ralith, I think you need to show him, that'd be better in the long term, both for you (easier to support him) and for him (for obvious reasons). 08:49:09 fe[nl]ix, apparently git-svn doesn't work very well when you've renamed the top-level project directory (multiple projects in a repos), there's a tool svn-all-fast-export on repo.or.cz that could work. 08:49:36 deepfire: he's *really* put off by it; he's clearly comfortable with typical GUIs and I'm far more interested in getting him lispy than getting him emacsy. 08:49:38 "Macro TEST Create a suite named NAME." Hmm. 08:49:46 I don't want him chased off from a great language cuz he dosen't like my IDE of choice. 08:50:03 Ralith, ok, maybe that'll be the second step :-) 08:50:10 Ralith: The LispworksIDE is a bit IDEish (its editor just happens to use emacs-like binding) 08:50:19 Ralith: And Allegro also comes with an IDE on windows 08:50:39 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:50:43 tcr: can you vouch for either of them? 08:50:44 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:51:21 I only tried the lispworks ide on linux which currently is ugly (motif-based), but on windows should be fine. 08:51:30 tcr: what do you think about the class-prototype thing in slime ? 08:51:31 hm, lispworks at least has nasty restrictions for the free version. 08:51:39 it's a bit like between a typical ide and emacs 08:51:46 i can use slot-boundp in print-object to work around it, but it's messy with lots of slots 08:51:50 _YKY_ [i=YKY@n11649161123.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 08:52:04 <_YKY_> How do you say x^y in lisp? 08:52:12 (expt x y) 08:52:12 <_YKY_> X to power y 08:52:16 xristos: I have only skimmed through it, and I do not understand the actual issue 08:52:18 <_YKY_> Thanks!=) 08:52:22 tcr: I don't suppose lispworks has any special free offers for students? 08:52:37 tcr: the issue is that the prototype instance may or may not be initialized according to spec 08:52:43 and it is not initialized in sbcl and ccl 08:52:55 xristos: Does the MOP say anything about that? 08:53:08 only what i said here 08:53:41 Ralith: Free, not, but you should contact them, perhaps they'll provide a specially-cheap student version again for their next release. They did for the last release, iirc. 08:54:13 xristos: So the inspector should better not call class-prototype? 08:54:43 either that (not show a prototype slot at all) or wrap the printing with a macro like with-errorfree-printing 08:54:48 ccl does the 2nd in it's inspector 08:55:47 sbcl doesn't so inspect/describe raise conditions there too 08:56:08 -!- kerimbasol [n=kerim@85.107.137.28] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:56:30 tcr: I dunno :/ 08:56:39 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:56:49 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:56:58 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:59:10 -!- QinGW3 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:59:55 fusss: this is interesting: apparently when you tell lispide to open its own binary, it semi-forkbombs. 09:00:12 no, I don't know quite what drove the guy to discover this. 09:00:41 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-76-114-212-247.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:02:24 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:02:37 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nwkoqimumnbmzsqz] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:03:31 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-izkfckxefaxrwtux] has joined #lisp 09:04:04 Ralith: the ccl ide will get there too but personally i don't think they offer anything more than slime/emacs 09:04:15 did he tell you what his issues with emacs are 09:04:37 xristos: "oh god where are the buttons" 09:04:47 menubar 09:05:04 not enough buttons 09:05:20 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:05:25 xristos: does the ccl ide wrap that macro around _all_ printing? 09:05:27 xristos: does the CCL IDE run on win32? 09:05:36 tcr: only in the inspector 09:05:57 Ralith: it will in the future 09:06:06 xristos: yeah but I mean will it only display "[error printing object]" (or whatever) for the class-prototype part of the displayed page? 09:06:14 yes 09:06:22 <#error 09:06:24 xristos: that's cool, but I'm showing him lisp now :P 09:06:39 Ralith: ccl ide also has no buttons ;p 09:06:48 that could be a problem for him 09:07:00 if it has no buttons why not just use emacs? 09:07:41 i use emacs 09:07:57 that's not what I meant 09:07:58 -_- 09:08:17 xristos: the solution is not straight forward. 09:08:19 well i can't speak for everyone thats why i said i don't see what they offer on top of emacs 09:08:39 tcr: how about getting rid of class-prototype alltogether 09:11:47 splittist [n=David@85.4.220.156] has joined #lisp 09:11:49 the only information you get from the prototype slot in slime inspector now are the slots 09:11:50 morning 09:11:59 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:12:21 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 09:12:38 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 09:12:44 and the prototype slot is only filled for finalized classes 09:14:08 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-117-28.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:15:40 jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 09:17:54 I'm inclined to comment it out, yes. But I'd like to talk to someone expertised in CLOS first, like Krystof. 09:17:59 Krystof: Are you here? 09:18:10 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:23:10 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:24:34 hello splittist 09:26:39 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:26:48 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp039.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:27:53 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 09:27:54 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:28:53 vaguely 09:29:42 having the class prototype around and easily accessible is valuable in mop programming 09:30:40 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:30:40 tcr pasted "for Krystof: printing errors due to class-prototype not properly initalizing classes" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88883 09:30:57 what I'd suggest is wrapping the printing of the prototype in an error-ignoring routine, and if an error occurs have a button which takes you to applicable print-object methods 09:31:34 the class prototype is not meant to be "properly" initialized; think about initforms with side effects 09:31:53 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.208] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:31:53 -!- jdz_ is now known as jdz 09:32:27 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-117-28.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 09:32:32 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:34:48 -!- Athas [n=athas@80.161.87.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:37:44 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:38:04 I just found a way to do that except for the button 09:38:14 not that it's impossible but I don't care enough 09:38:37 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-235.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:38:39 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:38:59 fair enough 09:39:09 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:40:16 *deepfire* screams "crime!" at asdf-d-g's tests/test-serial.asd containing a (eval-when (:load-toplevel :execute) (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :asdf-dependency-grovel)) 09:42:02 silenius [n=jl@192.166.201.90] has joined #lisp 09:43:39 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:43:40 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:49:02 nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has joined #lisp 09:50:11 levy [n=levy@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:51:51 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:52:36 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:56:29 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:59:15 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:00:44 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:02:38 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C054.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:49 tcr: for named-readtables, I think FUSE would be better than FUZE. But you may have other reasons for choosing the latter. 10:03:53 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:04:11 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 10:04:14 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:04:25 drafael [n=tapio@118.90.136.109] has joined #lisp 10:07:06 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:07:42 splittist: I've got no clue. I thought it would be spelled like that. 10:08:16 spelt 10:08:30 Oh thank you 10:08:43 no problem, hehe 10:09:12 although, is it not the case that spelled is correct, at least in American English, while spelt might be considered standard elsewhere, or other things? 10:09:41 I'm not American though 10:10:06 tcr may be though 10:10:21 my apologies if so... 10:10:21 it may be as though I would see, and as though I would not have been aware of tcr's . for example nationality, or other things 10:10:37 no one is perfect after all 10:10:37 hhh 10:10:56 hell no, I'm from Old Europe 10:11:38 looks like he took one step closer to perfection then 10:12:10 And I'm sincerely thankful for people pointing out grammatical mistakes. 10:12:30 I jest I mean no offence to our American cousins, hehe 10:13:16 I make far worse mistakes all the time though... 10:14:32 -!- cmatei_ [n=cmatei@82.137.49.217] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:14:53 cmatei_ [n=cmatei@89.122.249.234] has joined #lisp 10:16:51 Ok, ASDF-D-G's tests/test-serial.asd is severely complicating the simple model of uncovering hidden ASDF systems. 10:18:07 kenpp [n=kenpp@188-221-10-184.zone12.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:18:18 Basically, so far I've been doing a (find-system ) with asdf::*defined-systems* bound to an empty hash-table. 10:18:31 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-117-28.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:19:00 So if the file contains more than one definition, they'll pop up in that hash table in a simple and obvious manner. 10:19:47 (The hidden systems themselves are an ugly concept already..) 10:20:10 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:20:19 So what test-serial.asd does is -- it makes asdf:find-system load another system. 10:20:47 An abuse, simple and pure. 10:20:48 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:21:06 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 10:22:08 btw, is anyone working on graphic-forms and the mcclim backend based on it? 10:23:43 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 10:23:54 p_l, the last commit touching Backends/Graphic-Forms goes back to Oct 2007.. 10:25:53 TR2N [i=email@89-180-196-67.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 10:26:59 damn 10:31:22 Can someone help me with how to use fixtures in FiveAM. This: http://paste.lisp.org/display/88886 doesn't seem to work. I get reg2 is unbound. 10:33:49 Wow, is it possible that lisppaste messed up my indentation? 10:35:22 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:36:04 beach: is your editor mixing tabs and spaces? (emacs does this by default, iirc) 10:36:10 beach: tabs 10:36:17 beach: nope, but i can help how to use them in stefil... :) 10:37:22 beach: (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil) into your .emacs 10:38:34 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:40:10 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 10:41:29 (set-syntax-from-char #\Tab #\a) in your ~/.sbclrc 10:43:10 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 10:43:45 arbscht: Yes, but that hasn't been a problem in the past. 10:44:04 tcr: Yeah, I guess I'll do that. Thanks 10:44:11 beach: also, if you use emacs a lot, you can add a line at th etop of your files that tells emacs to not tolerate tabs. 10:44:15 someone create a paste, so i can then get my paste #88888 up :) 10:44:36 ;;;; -*- Mode: Lisp; Syntax: ANSI-Common-Lisp; indent-tabs-mode: nil -*- 10:45:27 Adlai: Thanks! 10:46:02 beach: no problem. Emacs won't actually do anything immediately, but if you do M-x whitespace-cleanup on a file that has that, it'll convert tabs to spaces. 10:46:06 (among other things) 10:46:39 or M-x untabify 10:46:42 Adlai: What is the difference between whitespace-cleanup and untabify? 10:47:09 C-h f whitespace-cleanup ;) 10:47:38 Right. 10:47:47 beach: whitespace-cleanup is pretty customizeable 10:47:51 (except that I have C-h bound to erase-char) 10:48:04 beach: M-x describe-function whitespace-cleanup 10:48:30 -!- superjoe [n=superjoe@129-219-191-61.nat.asu.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:48:37 (to a certain extent) C-h foo === M-x describe-foo 10:48:53 Ok, the solution wasn't all that complicated, but required wider context to be available at all. 10:49:14 yes, M-x describe-function works 10:49:19 basically, whitespace-cleanup strips trailing spaces, extra newlines, and messes with some tab issues. 10:49:34 it all does that based on variables which you can customize, indent-tabs-mode being one of them 10:49:56 h3 [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 10:49:59 OK, now I have to figure out how to use fixtures in FiveAM. 10:50:11 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:50:23 beach: they're templates 10:50:30 let me paste an example 10:50:38 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483FECB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:49 my C-h is goto-last-change, but f1 does the same 10:51:02 Oh, wait, my problem might be an easy one... 10:52:18 hmm, these examples aren't worth pasting... basically, they're like C macros 10:52:33 you just put (&body) where you want the body of your test to go 10:53:01 ie, (def-fixture xyz () (let ((captured-name 'uhoh)) (&body))) 10:53:17 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 10:53:32 Ah, OK. My initial problem was a forgotten package prefix. 10:54:26 So there are no backquotes despite the doc saying it's like a macro. 10:54:39 Hard to guess those things. 10:54:44 it's like a macro -- the kind that the trolls on c.l.l think we have. 10:55:15 beach, have you seen that grand test framework overview somebody wrote about half a year ago? 10:55:26 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:55:56 deepfire: Yes, lichtblau told me about it. That's why I am checking out FiveAM. 10:56:19 beach: 5AM is pretty neat, although there are things I don't like about it (the fixtures being one of them) 10:56:20 Adlai: It is also clever to fail compilation when a def-fixture is redefined. :( 10:56:31 Adlai: What would you do without them? 10:56:45 Just write a macro 10:57:01 Adlai: Where would it go? 10:57:07 I started a fork of 5am, but I haven't worked on it much yet 10:57:09 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:57:17 I just wrap the bodies of my tests in macros right now 10:57:26 ie, (test foo (with-xyz ...)) 10:57:31 I see. 10:57:53 it's arguably cleaner than (test (foo :fixture with-xyz) ...) 10:58:34 It seems that basically everyone has a test framework (or a fork) of his own, these days.. 10:59:13 the only problem with macros is that they are always wrapping... fixtures in stefil are only issues once each test run (both :setup and :teardown), regardless of which entry-point you use to the test call graph. 10:59:30 s/issues/issued/ 10:59:49 attila, with-ensured-foo.. 11:00:05 deepfire: sure, but then you need to implement the ensure- part each time 11:00:08 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:00:15 attila, macro.. :-) 11:01:02 *splittist* goes on a whitespace-cleanup binge 11:01:28 Adlai: Success! Thank you! 11:01:38 deepfire: you have a test A and test B that needs fixture F. you have a test called SUITE that calls A and B. when you run SUITE you want to have the fixtures issued only once, but at the same time if you start A or B separately then you still want the fixtures to be run... 11:01:46 beach: glad to help :) 11:02:42 attila, oh, I see, I thought about a different problem.. 11:03:53 I have a problem with such test setups though, as the fixtures need not be affected by the test A itself to be properly available to B.. 11:03:55 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 11:03:58 tests in stefil are instrumented defun's, same for fixtures, and the test context has some state to keep track of the fixtures... 11:04:15 Adlai: http://paste.lisp.org/display/88886#1 (working now) 11:05:48 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:06:11 deepfire: fixtures are functional setup and teardown code pieces, guaranteed to be run in pair, as rarely as necessary and as high on the stack as possible. once you rely on sideffects then you should know what you are doing... but that's unrelated to fixtures. 11:06:26 The cases where it matters are probably rare, though. Just happens to me, as my most often test subject interfaces hardware. 11:06:28 s/necessary/possible/ 11:07:08 Erm, just happens to me, as my most frequent test subjects interface with hardware. 11:08:18 if there are sideffect in A and/or B, then SUITE should not have the fixture, only A and B separately... but in the test suite of perec for example running the fixtures each time would take much more than the test themselves, so fixtures are shared by functional tests 11:08:58 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 11:09:43 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 11:09:56 h3r3tic [n=heretic@86.3.27.232] has joined #lisp 11:09:58 hello 11:10:13 -!- _YKY_ [i=YKY@n11649161123.netvigator.com] has left #lisp 11:10:22 hi levy, is it safe to pull wui, now? 11:10:32 -!- h3 [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:11:38 hello kami- 11:11:45 not now, but pretty soon 11:12:04 attila_lendvai: if fixtures are functional, why do you need them to run before and after the tests? don't they have some side effects to be useful? 11:12:52 Adlai: i've used the wrong word there... 11:13:13 ok, I think I see what you mean, thon. 11:13:16 * then 11:13:58 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:14:13 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 11:14:33 levy: OK. What is the current state of filters/inspectors? (with the code base of last week) 11:15:19 kami-, last week I was not working on it at all, so I just started 11:15:39 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@86.3.27.232] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:15:45 h3r3tic [n=heretic@86.3.27.232] has joined #lisp 11:16:01 -!- ropert [n=user@CPE00222d12ee72-CM00222d12ee6e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:19:01 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-117-28.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 11:19:22 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@86.3.27.232] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:20:28 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 11:22:15 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C054.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 11:25:11 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 11:25:51 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:30:45 asksol [n=ask@213.236.208.22] has joined #lisp 11:32:47 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 11:33:04 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:38:15 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-izkfckxefaxrwtux] has left #lisp 11:40:26 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:54:51 serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06d590.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:57 hello 11:55:05 kerimbasol [n=kerim@85.107.137.28] has joined #lisp 11:56:49 mjf [n=mjf@tech.cas.ip-anywhere.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:25 -!- mjf [n=mjf@tech.cas.ip-anywhere.net] has left #lisp 11:58:31 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:59:26 is it possible to call READ on a stream, get end of file. then call it again on the same stream and not get end of file? it make sense in the case of a socket where the end of file is changing, but is that behavior compatible with the spec? 12:00:42 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:36 blub` [n=user@62.96.71.236] has joined #lisp 12:02:25 another process may write a local file, too 12:04:11 hello, does anyone know the difference between the current snapshot of slime and the debian package? Wich should i prefer? 12:04:56 levy_ [n=levy@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:05:03 gonzojive: isn't end of file in a network stream supposed to indicate disconnection 12:05:18 normally read would block if there was nothing to read 12:05:37 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-72-147.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:05:41 attila_lendvai: yes, that crossed my mind as well 12:05:56 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 12:06:52 xristos: good point about disconnection... I am implementing a gray stream for nonblocking sockets 12:07:00 blub`: if you go with the latest sbcl, then go with latest slime. if debian sbcl, then debian slime 12:07:01 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:07:16 gonzojive: have you seen iolib? 12:07:19 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 12:07:47 attila_lendvai: thanks 12:08:04 attila_lendvai: i'm hacking iolib. currently a nonblocking socket will block when it tries to read too far ahead 12:08:54 kami-, newest version is pushed, dwim.hu seems to work not worse than before 12:09:05 maybe i can just have a restart for special clients who do not want to block 12:09:16 er, I mean before it broke completely 12:09:19 gonzojive: oh, so it's a bug then... make sure fe[ln]nix knows about it if you don't come up with a fix 12:09:31 gonzojive: blocking on a non-blocking socket doesn't make sense 12:09:59 -!- drafael [n=tapio@118.90.136.109] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:10:13 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:10:38 gonzojive: iolib bugs are at: https://bugs.launchpad.net/iolib 12:10:48 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:11:09 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:11:48 kami-, hu.dwim.home requires -l or --load-swank when building with hu.dwim.build 12:12:05 -!- blub` [n=user@62.96.71.236] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:12:27 xristos: would you vote to indicate EOF when the socket would block? 12:12:34 no 12:12:35 attila_lendvai: thanks 12:13:07 gonzojive: i would return immediatelly 12:13:17 something like 0 bytes read 12:14:19 udzinari [n=user@195.212.29.187] has joined #lisp 12:16:11 xristos: or 5 bytes read if it could get 5 bytes before blocking? 12:16:15 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:16:31 levy_: will try in an hour or so. thanks. 12:17:06 gonzojive: yes 12:17:07 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 12:19:34 xristos: cool. what do you think of the wording of the spec for READ-SEQUENCE? depending on how you interpret "might" it implies that for READ-SEQUENCE it either fills the sequence or else it reaches end of file: "Position is the index of the first element of sequence that was not updated, which might be less than end because the end of file was reached. " 12:20:32 i guess it does not say that the only reason is that end of file was reached, so your suggested behavior is compliant 12:21:03 yes 12:21:03 Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has joined #lisp 12:24:47 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:25:09 -!- omerta [n=glgomert@201.243.137.4] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:26:05 -!- levy [n=levy@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:26:05 xristos: thanks 12:30:12 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-104-232.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:31:07 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:31:28 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:32:26 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:35 fisher_ [n=fisher@89.252.62.139] has joined #lisp 12:32:39 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.155.177] has joined #lisp 12:33:48 superjoe [n=superjoe@129-219-191-61.nat.asu.edu] has joined #lisp 12:34:00 how does one remove an element from a list by index? 12:34:23 clhs remove 12:34:23 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm 12:34:36 (remove-if (constantly t) list :start index :end (1+ index)) 12:35:07 or :count 1 12:35:24 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-129-134.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 12:35:26 right 12:35:27 hmm I see 12:35:39 I'll remember that. In this one case, I am able to use pop 12:36:26 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:37:21 gonzojive: you still need a way to detect end of file though 12:37:21 superjoe: If you want to do it destructively, you can often use combinations such as (pop (cdr (nthcdr ...))), but watch out for the first element. 12:37:21 ok 12:43:32 -!- fisher_ [n=fisher@89.252.62.139] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:44:24 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:45:16 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:54 haha- [n=haha-@121.80.138.101] has joined #lisp 12:45:56 xristos: yes. I'm trying to figure out exactly how disconnection is detected on a non-blocking socket in C... 12:46:37 you get a read-ready and then a read of 0 bytes 12:46:59 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 12:47:05 if you read on a non-blocking socket with nothing ready, you get EWOULDBLOCK 12:47:37 gonzojive: recv returns -1 and you check for EAGAIN or ENOTCONN here 12:47:59 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:48:39 hello 12:49:06 *Xach* is living in the past 12:52:01 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-117-28.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:52:21 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:52:24 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:19 demmel [n=Adium@a141.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:57:48 -!- haha- [n=haha-@121.80.138.101] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:58:00 xristos: how do you differentiate an EAGAIN that means no data from one that means the remote socket was closed? 12:58:15 haha- [n=haha-@121-80-138-101.eonet.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:59:30 gonzojive: you get eagain if there is nothing to read without blocking, enotconn on disconnect 12:59:37 gonzojive: if the remote socket was closed, read(2) will return 0, not -1 + EWOULDBLOCK 12:59:40 but recv is different to read so i shouldn't have mentioned it 12:59:54 i guess you can implement read-sequence per spec 13:00:07 and simply not detect disconnection there 13:00:07 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:00:17 you can use different stream function to check for that 13:00:26 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 13:00:28 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:02:02 I will have to get to this some other time. i finished the WRITE end of things already today 13:02:47 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:55 ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 13:10:06 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:11:56 sholgate [i=c0abc49f@gateway/web/freenode/x-xunzzfxtbqwheotp] has joined #lisp 13:12:35 -!- sholgate [i=c0abc49f@gateway/web/freenode/x-xunzzfxtbqwheotp] has quit [Client Quit] 13:13:03 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32F3CA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:28 simonh [i=c0abc49f@gateway/web/freenode/x-jvnxbvbvnaizssvj] has joined #lisp 13:13:36 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Client Quit] 13:17:11 is there a function to insert an element into a list at a specific index? 13:17:51 push nth? 13:18:33 superjoe: If you want to do it destructively, you can use a combination of (push object (cdr (nthcdr ...))), but watch out for the first element :) 13:18:58 I am beginning to see a pattern 13:19:06 Excellent! 13:19:15 super: back out a bit -- what do you REALLY want? 13:19:28 Fare: I REALLY want to use python 13:19:33 minion: tell superjoe about flexichain 13:19:34 oops, I think I backed out too far 13:19:35 superjoe: look at flexichain: A Library needed by Climacs and Gsharp. http://www.cliki.net/flexichain 13:19:42 lists are not always the correct data structure 13:19:57 the real data structure I am emulating is a priority queue 13:20:09 sbcl has one that is easy to steal 13:20:15 superjoe: uh, oh. Then you want a heap instead. 13:20:25 yes 13:21:00 superjoe: ok, you can arrange heaps with lists 13:21:19 The good thing about a priority queue as a heap is that the heap can be represented as a vector, and you never have to insert or delete elements, other than at the end, so you can use vector-push-extend. 13:21:21 beach, how do flexichains relate to Boehm's cords? 13:21:33 minion: tell superjoe about cl-heap 13:21:34 superjoe: please see cl-heap: CL-HEAP is a library providing implementations of heap data structures (a binary heap and a Fibonacci heap) as well as an efficient priority queue. http://www.cliki.net/cl-heap 13:21:34 Fare: I can't remember, though I used to. 13:21:52 I've used that one before, it worked well for my purposes 13:21:55 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483FECB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:21:58 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483FECB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:58 superjoe: linked lists are VERY BAD queues 13:22:12 that makes sense 13:22:15 Fare: Not at all, but they are bad priority queues. 13:22:18 try heaps - maybe implemented as vectors 13:22:32 Fare: a linked list + tail pointer is fine for a normal queue 13:22:45 Fare: I already said that. 13:22:48 -!- silenius [n=jl@192.166.201.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:22:50 ok s/queue/priority queue/ 13:24:04 beach: you type too fast for me 13:24:13 Sorry. 13:24:19 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:45 man, my chat logs of this channel are better than the actual documentation on the internet 13:24:52 LiamH [n=none@132.250.138.103] has joined #lisp 13:25:02 superjoe: hmm, looking quickly at what Python provides, it has a heap structure which is basically what you need to use. You're in luck though because it uses a pretty standard algorithm and should be easy to implement. 13:25:36 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-213-82.taconic.net] has quit [] 13:25:39 superjoe: afaik quite a big part of LoL/ROFL documentation is a chatlog and a slime buffer :P 13:26:01 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:26:22 TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has joined #lisp 13:26:43 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 13:27:06 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 13:27:14 billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-213-82.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:20 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:06 Adlai: Is there any reason you don't like cl-heap? 13:29:23 *Adlai* scrolls up 13:29:38 beach: no. 13:30:10 missed that link in the flurry of advice. 13:30:24 fare-utils also had a fibonacci heap. 13:30:30 I suppose I should have advertised that 13:30:32 oh well 13:31:55 Fare: that still made it in the chat log ;) 13:32:37 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 13:34:47 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-12947.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 13:34:49 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.155.177] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:36:58 oudeis [n=oudeis@81.218.0.98] has joined #lisp 13:37:36 -!- Reav_1 [n=Reav_1@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit ["~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~"] 13:38:39 carloss [n=carloss@78.161.247.44] has joined #lisp 13:40:22 Fare: was the tree-hashsing stuff posted on planet lisp not sufficient? 13:41:54 Joreji [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:41:55 perhaps the ragged-right text was too difficult to read 13:42:02 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32F3CA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:05 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:42:06 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:10 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32F3CA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:31 (that is a joke without justification. sorry.) 13:44:57 instantrimshot.com 13:45:00 nice double pun there 13:45:07 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:47:08 froydnj, dunno, didn't try. Is it in the latest ironclad? 13:47:18 do you have an upstream darcs or git or svn? 13:47:34 double pun? I don't get it 13:48:47 Fare: why do you set the style of your articles to fully-justified? 13:49:17 Fare: no and no (yet) 13:49:27 which articles? 13:49:32 is it bad? 13:49:38 -!- demmel [n=Adium@a141.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:49:39 on livejournal? 13:49:46 On LiveJournal, yeah. 13:49:48 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 13:50:01 I find them harder to read because browsers don't usually get word/letter-spacing right 13:50:05 in general I find justified text less offensive to my eyes 13:50:22 maybe I should learn CSS someday 13:50:48 blackwolf [n=blackwol@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:25 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 13:52:18 -!- aeron [n=aerrant_@129.101.136.195] has quit [] 13:52:42 Xach: which browser / screen res do you use, btw? 13:53:19 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:53:20 scottmaccal [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has joined #lisp 13:53:21 Fare: firefox and safari on 22" and 13" screens 13:53:30 also iphone 13:53:35 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has joined #lisp 13:53:42 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:16 hrmm .. Slime's thread list is showing all threads as `RUNNING INVOKE-INTERRUPTION <- INVOKE-INTERRUPTION <- (FLET RUN-HANDLER)'. anyone know what might be up? don't want to have to bounce sbcl if I don't have to. 13:56:50 I have no problem with firefox at any resolution, but I admit I haven't tried iphone. 13:56:57 (resolution and font size) 13:57:28 blackwolf, bug while entering GC? 13:58:35 don't see anything in the slime REPL 13:59:01 Fare: Clearly it's subjective. I subjectively think it looks like garbage in any browser at any resolution. 13:59:31 no *inferior-lisp* buffer in slime anymore? 13:59:54 it's still there 14:00:01 (if you use it) 14:00:06 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:00:10 Xach: clearly you're wrong. 14:00:16 ok, sorry about that. 14:00:28 I'll try to learn CSS, so you can just disable my stylesheet 14:00:52 stassats`: don't see it in the buffer list nor via switch-to-buffer 14:01:09 did you start swank server by hand? 14:01:39 Fare: hmm, I suppose I can get a measure of relief on planet lisp by forbidding the justify attribute of the P element. 14:02:37 stassats`: yes - something i missed in swank:create-server perhaps? 14:02:42 Xach, could work 14:03:07 while I would add it everywhere... 14:03:08 blackwolf: no, you won't get inferior lisp buffer 14:03:22 that's the case where "you don't use it" 14:04:11 ah - gotcha. running sbcl through detachtty, so output would have gone there. *smacks forehead* thanks. 14:05:26 swank:list-threads seems rather uninformative on sbcl 14:05:45 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 14:09:20 stassats`: agreed 14:10:57 -!- carloss [n=carloss@78.161.247.44] has quit ["Try to value useful qualities in one who loves you."] 14:15:08 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 14:15:09 benny` [n=benny@87.122.18.20] has joined #lisp 14:15:44 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 14:15:52 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:17:29 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["sudo nmap -A -PN localhost"] 14:17:56 -!- haha- [n=haha-@121-80-138-101.eonet.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving.."] 14:19:15 jlf` [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 14:20:20 it shows a backtrace, but every thread have the same backtrace after interruption 14:21:22 Guthur [i=c13dbf16@gateway/web/freenode/x-hvkdyalhtbulhfmr] has joined #lisp 14:21:26 -!- jlf [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:21:45 is there a version of SBCL that is recommended for windows 14:23:08 -!- langzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@p57915691.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:23:29 the one that you're willing to work on to improve 14:24:43 Krystof: harsh, but true 14:24:47 Krystof thats not good 14:25:33 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1BD6.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:25:54 its not my chosen platform, windows, but the uni is being very slow at getting the linux sorted, its nearly mid way through and still no sign, i'll chance 1.0.29 and see how it goes 14:25:55 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:26:51 is building from source possible, or even a good idea 14:27:38 yes, it's possible 14:28:00 you have to understand though that I at least am fundamentally not interested in bug reports about SBCL for Windows; I know it's buggy 14:28:07 I am interested in bug fixes 14:28:24 as long as you're OK with that, that's fine from my point of view 14:28:48 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.222.57] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 14:28:52 (incredibly, there are people out there /deploying/ using sbcl on windows. I'm surprised, but OK; it's their customer base) 14:29:13 oh i probably wouldn't even bother filing bug reports, its not my platform, i'll probably just start hassling the uni tech guy to get his ass into gear and get me linux 14:30:00 Guthur: install an ubuntu on a pendrive and ignore them... 14:30:29 attila_lendvai awesome idea. wish i thought of it. cheers 14:30:32 Guthur: for the stuff I'm doing right now, SBCL on Win32 isn't noticeably less stable than what I imagine it would be if I were doing the same stuff on, say, OSX. (: 14:31:19 splittist i am even less likely to be using OSX, hehe 14:31:34 i like the pen drive idea 14:32:04 cheers folks, must dash 14:32:10 -!- Guthur [i=c13dbf16@gateway/web/freenode/x-hvkdyalhtbulhfmr] has quit ["Page closed"] 14:32:16 morphling [n=stefan@89.14.132.193] has joined #lisp 14:33:52 colin__ [n=colin@118-169-38-121.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:08 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:37:34 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 14:37:49 Xach: I've developed a habit of saving Long And Serious blog posts to disk and reading them with an e-book reading program (such as uBook on Windows). much more pleasant, because those programs get justification right, let you display text in two columns, etc 14:37:51 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:22 the downside is the frequent need to hand-massage the html, though. I'd love a version of Aardvark that could save the result to disk 14:39:11 cmm: have you tried http://lab.arc90.com/experiments/readability/ ? 14:39:13 also, Fare's posts are usually not long enough to warrant the procedure :) 14:40:06 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 14:40:07 fe[nl]ix: oh, wow. no, first time I hear about it! 14:40:21 cmm: it's fabulous :) 14:40:28 cmm: sounds like a good idea 14:41:08 Xach: works great for stuff like Moldbug's weekly screeds :) 14:41:36 -!- benny` is now known as benny 14:41:49 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has quit ["Valete!"] 14:43:04 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 14:43:10 cmm: my average blog post length has increased since I've started using twitter for short things. 14:43:31 fusss [n=chatzill@60.241.1.206] has joined #lisp 14:43:46 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 14:43:51 greetings 14:43:59 good evening. 14:44:22 OT: are there any Russian speakers or Rusophiles in here? :-) 14:44:32 yes 14:44:35 fusss:  14:44:44 cmm: woooooah :-D 14:44:44 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has quit [] 14:44:58 cmm: mind if I msg you from time to time with some questions? 14:45:01 yes, there are 14:45:16 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:45:19 stassats`: nice nice 14:45:32 I will bug you guys later, whether you like it or not ;-) 14:45:40 fusss: sure. stassats` is a more active Russian speaker, probably :) 14:45:42 cmm: what's Aadvark? 14:45:56 fusss: I read la Russophobe from time to time. 14:46:08 and any of you in novosibirsk? we could have some business meetings, then my plane ticket to my gf's family would be from money before the taxes... :) 14:46:25 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:46:34 Fare: a cool Firefox extension, lets you edit the displayed page interactively (mostly by removing annoying elements) 14:46:40 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 14:46:41 attila_lendvai, if no one is, recruit a bum there to serve as your interviewee 14:47:07 Fare: heh, great idea! 14:47:37 "so you learned computer science? what did you do so far? a few websites in PHP? we'll call you later." 14:48:08 milanj [n=milan@77.46.174.157] has joined #lisp 14:48:10 (also, some ASP.NET programming in VB) 14:48:54 although i wonder what kind of documents i could/should show to the tax cops to convince them... 14:49:09 Fare: applicants at ITA? 14:49:40 fusss: i speak some russian too 14:49:58 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has joined #lisp 14:50:03 the federation is well represented, imo 14:50:15 "I programmed assembly on this antique soviet-era clone of a PDP-10½" 14:51:46 "i took down *.gov for a day 5 years ago" 14:52:18 *gah*! 14:52:29 Too much to do, not enough time! 14:52:58 Better zone out on IRC. 14:52:59 "I wrote spambots for the russian mafia" 14:53:00 Here, have a drink. 14:53:13 in soviet russia, etc. 14:53:21 *Fare* offers beach a bottle of napa wine, for a change 14:53:53 Fare: Ah, that would have been nice! What are the grape varieties they use again? 14:54:27 *beach* puts on som metal music to calm down. 14:54:28 beach: THC-enhanced grapes 14:54:36 minion: memo for lisp: I think /lisp/ will like this; click for larger size :-) http://www.nga.gov/fcgi-bin/tinfo_f?object=119255 14:54:36 Remembered. I'll tell lisp when he/she/it next speaks. 14:54:43 err 14:54:44 minion: memo for lispm: I think /lisp/ will like this; click for larger size :-) http://www.nga.gov/fcgi-bin/tinfo_f?object=119255 14:54:45 hemp wine? 14:54:45 Remembered. I'll tell lispm when he/she/it next speaks. 14:54:45 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:56:02 coliv [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has joined #lisp 15:04:37 *deepfire* ughs at Madhu's contribution to the DEFSTRUCT ambiguity thread... 15:05:36 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-222-139.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:06:05 *deepfire* raises hand as another native russian 15:06:15 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [] 15:07:42 ..speaker 15:07:44 ; So that lusers can't change it! 15:07:57 sheesh, symbolics, why so hostile? :-P 15:08:13 rather, Bellcore 15:08:13 smackarang [n=user@91.190.137.166] has joined #lisp 15:09:44 deepfire, btw, is there a mailing-list for desire, etc.? 15:09:45 deepfire: haha 15:10:14 *attila_lendvai* ughs at the test-op discussion on asdf-devel 15:10:22 amazing, 3rd party application trying to catch Zwei tags .. wow 15:10:38 Fare, no, do you have any suggestions? 15:10:42 most of the internet is there basically to ugh at 15:10:47 (multiple-value-bind (ignore abort) 15:10:49 (catch 'zwei:abort-standalone-edit ... 15:11:06 deepfire: nope. But be sure to invite the usual suspects 15:11:36 Fare, ok, will do soon (-ish) 15:13:05 Fare, I'm guessing I'll use launchpad for the list and other things. 15:13:48 sepult [n=levgue@87.78.172.47] has joined #lisp 15:14:07 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.154] has quit ["off"] 15:14:10 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:14:20 -!- sepult [n=levgue@87.78.172.47] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:15:53 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-172-47.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:16:23 angel_ [n=angel@221.223.135.73] has joined #lisp 15:16:40 are there map function that used to select element from list?? 15:16:56 angel_: Then it wouldn't be map. 15:17:00 angel_: remove-if-not is one that can be used to do that. 15:17:02 angel_: Try remove-if-not 15:17:24 thanks a lot beach and xach 15:17:25 angel_: Think of remove-if-not as keep-if (which doesn't exist) 15:17:28 -!- angel_ [n=angel@221.223.135.73] has quit [Client Quit] 15:18:00 all take and no give. 15:19:55 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:20:06 Greetings. 15:20:15 hello tmh 15:21:40 I'm experimenting with profiling and have been surprised at the overhead. Seconds in profiled functions: 357.941 seconds, profiling overhead 238.58 seconds. Not complaining, just didn't expect that. 15:21:58 heh, LOOP predates CLOS 15:22:18 at least from before 1985 15:22:22 tmh, sprof or precise profiler? sbcl? 15:22:43 Oh, "profiled functions" suggest precise profiler. 15:23:16 deepfire: SBCL precise profiler. I use the precise profiler when I need to compare algorithmic variations of my functions. 15:23:30 fusss: well, clos predecessors were before 1985 15:23:56 stassats`: are you considering flavors a clos "predecessor"? 15:24:01 yes 15:25:27 Wow, what an improvement! (I forgot to add the new function to the profiler. :-) 15:29:36 -!- ineiros [n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:29:42 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:29:42 ineiros [n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 15:30:02 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 15:32:16 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-72-147.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:33:21 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-172-47.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:35:27 Adlai` [n=adlai@93.172.184.190] has joined #lisp 15:35:52 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:35:55 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 15:36:03 a prefix-dylan implementation, the only one I know of; http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/ftpdir/Thomas/Thomas-1.1/ 15:37:19 beach: With your new-found experience with 5am, would you recommend it over the others? 15:37:43 *dlowe* prefers stefil to 5am these days 15:38:09 wgl, did you read /that/ grand test framework overview? 15:38:09 dlowe: what are the advantages? 15:38:25 wgl: I have only used lisp-unit before, and so far I don't see the advantage of FiveAM, but I am willing to belive what others say. 15:38:26 lift ftw! 15:38:39 wgl: lisp-unit has better documentation, though. 15:38:58 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 15:39:11 deepfire: Yes. Have been using xlunit and briefly checked out NST and am wondering if I should consider switching. 15:39:11 wgl: the code-writing process is approximately the same, but it's a nicer interactive experience for me 15:39:36 -!- levy_ [n=levy@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:40:17 levy_ [n=levy@89.134.66.153] has joined #lisp 15:40:28 Being the admin of the lisp-unit extensions, I'd say the primary advantage of lisp-unit is simplicity and the floating point equality functions. 15:40:45 tmh: And the documentation. 15:40:55 tmh: presumably that means there is a "almost-equal"? 15:41:55 beach: I don't think the documentation in the repository is synced with the current source. There is a little bit of flux in the interface that has given me excuse to let the documentation slide. 15:42:51 wgl: There is a float-equal that has defaults for the allowable epsilon and lets you specify it. It also has a sigfig equal so you can look at equality in terms of significant figures. 15:43:25 wgl: It also provides comparing arrays and sequences in terms of the relative norm. 15:43:33 tmh: Interesting. I hacked xlunit to provide almost-equal in that sense. 15:44:14 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 15:44:16 coyo [n=alex@144.162.128.141] has joined #lisp 15:44:20 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:44:34 tmh: Possibly. I haven't used lisp-unit for a while (because I haven't programmed for a while), but it is true that I rely more and more on documentation, simply because I don't have time to read and understand source code that much anymore. 15:44:34 wgl: Well, if you prefer the xlunit framework interface, feel free to browse the floating point extensions to lisp-unit and port those. There is a fair amount of work and thought in the floating point extensions. 15:45:23 beach: I feel the same about documentation. I think I need to get the lisp-unit floating point interface nailed down and update the documentation. I also plan to put together a tutorial. 15:45:39 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 15:45:42 tmh: That would be great! 15:45:48 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 15:45:58 tmh: Well, I did far less research than beach did to chose one--pretty much picked xlunit out of the blue (having written acres of cppunit and junit tests) cause it looked familiar. 15:46:12 tmh: Though, last time I used it, I was in business within minutes. 15:46:13 I see that lisp-unit was written by a local fellow. 15:47:08 wgl: Note that we have the floating point extensions at http://repo.or.cz/w/lisp-unit.git as noted on the CLiki page -> http://www.cliki.net/lisp-unit 15:47:36 wgl: It is (or should be, I have less and less time) part of my job to try to investigate different things and then to try to make myself an opinion of the difference, and ultimately to generalize what I learned. 15:48:33 beach: Have you used others besides 5am? 15:48:40 wgl: If you get the lisp-unit git repository, get the expanded-interface branch. I'm planning on merging that back into the master. 15:49:59 The real problem is that lisp-unit has been working for me so I've been able to work on other things. Squeaky wheel gets the grease. :-) 15:50:34 wgl: Only lisp-unit so fare. 15:50:36 *far 15:50:46 tmh: where would that expanded-interface be? 15:50:54 the repository that is 15:51:19 wgl: In the repository I posted earlier 15:51:38 tmh: Duh. thanks. 15:52:10 -!- jlf` [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:52:33 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:54:28 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 15:55:15 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60.241.1.206] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 15:55:24 ejs [n=eugen@95.135.107.80] has joined #lisp 15:55:32 -!- Bucciarati [n=buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:57:26 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:57:48 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:58:05 tmh: so i would do a 'git pull' from that repo url? 15:59:35 git clone git://repo-url 15:59:42 wgl: Funny story, I use darcs. :-) I know you have to do a git clone and then some branch manipulation, but I have to reference the git docs everytime I do it. lisp-unit is in git because it was more convenient for the people I collaborate with. 15:59:45 then git pull once in a while to get updates. 16:01:37 tmh: I am not yet fully git-ready. Ok, when i do 'git clone git://repo.or.cz/w/lisp-unit.git/' i get 'fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly' 16:01:57 baaah, just fixed a nasty bug with the arguments from a CFFI call being trashed in C++ because the return type was some kind of shared pointer.. fuck knows what those are 16:02:02 something wonky with their gitd. can you try the http url instead? 16:02:21 wgl: What tic said. 16:02:53 wgl: copy&paste error? 16:02:58 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-udlkquihjtsalgml] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:03:15 tic,tmh: did 'git clone http://repo.or.cz/w/lisp-unit.git', got a little action, then 'cd: 491: can't cd to /tmp/lisp-unit/.git/refs/remotes/origin' 16:03:18 Mirror URL git://repo.or.cz/lisp-unit.git <-- that's what the web page says. Note no w/ 16:03:42 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 16:03:56 Oh, but look at the link I posted. 16:04:04 The CLiki page needs to be updated. 16:04:43 without the w/ works properly. 16:04:54 tmh,tic,lichtblau: thanks. 16:05:22 Bucciarati [n=buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:13 oh well, learned a lot about gdb in the meantime 16:06:15 Need to clarify the difference between the repository URL and the repo webpage url 16:06:23 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:07:29 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:31 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:07:41 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:08:20 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:08:23 *vsync* loves darcs. it seems to more simply model real workflow than any other VCS 16:08:26 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:08:31 seems like the whole lisp world is all about darcs 16:08:37 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 16:08:57 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 16:08:57 Can you use git://repor.or.cz/lisp-unit.git and expect people browsers to proper fire off git when the link is clicked? Do you even want that since it might not be clear what directory the repository will end up in? 16:08:59 ruby is all git 16:09:26 I'd say that the gitward movement has a bigger second derivative. 16:09:32 vsync: except that clbuild requires hg, git, mercurial, and svn. and maybe cvs. 16:09:51 but google code has chosen mercurial, interestingly. 16:11:31 *vsync* looks up clbuild. assuming you mean it needs to handle those for the variety of projects out there 16:11:34 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:11:48 i was just getting recent versions of libraries for the first time in a while the other day 16:11:53 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:12:09 and said, wow, seems every projects repo has a _darcs in it 16:12:34 FAQ 16:12:36 How does clbuild differ from asdf-install? 16:12:42 ha, that was going to be my first question 16:12:43 *vsync* reads 16:13:01 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-172-47.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:13:33 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.129] has quit ["so long.."] 16:15:15 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:15:29 vsync: clbuild handles whatever VCS the project has, whether it be git, svn, mercurial. 16:17:25 robyonrails [n=roby@host205-120-dynamic.51-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:17:43 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:18:08 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:21:29 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 16:23:12 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:24:24 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host205-120-dynamic.51-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 16:28:01 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:29:21 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:39 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:29:44 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-kjbotpwsqzifbuyf] has joined #lisp 16:32:31 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has quit [] 16:34:04 knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has joined #lisp 16:34:19 fusss [n=chatzill@60.241.1.206] has joined #lisp 16:34:27 vsync: clbuild takes care of downloading the right version of a project, using the "right" method to get a version that works. It might use asdf-install (don't know whether it does), cvs, svn, darcs, or GIT as necessary. 16:34:35 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:34:35 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:36:06 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 16:36:12 danlei [n=user@pD9E2C2DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:41 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:37:21 -!- simonh [i=c0abc49f@gateway/web/freenode/x-jvnxbvbvnaizssvj] has quit [] 16:38:35 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@81.218.0.98] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:39:02 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:14 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has quit [] 16:39:57 redblue [i=star@ppp066.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:41:53 if by "asdf-install" you mean that sometimes it downloads tarballs, yes. (As an exception for when there's really no upstream repo.) It wouldn't really go through asdf-install though. 16:42:03 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 16:42:41 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:42:50 mokogobo [n=mokogobo@71.31.214.210] has joined #lisp 16:43:29 I wouldn't want to see "get_tarball http://cliki/foo?download" in a clbuild project list though, so arguable it's not like asdf-install even then. We would only add links to upstream tarball URLs, where it's reasonably safe to assume that the link can't be changed by any random person on cliki. 16:43:44 lichtblau: did you take a look at that termios code ? 16:44:39 fe[nl]ix: only half-heartedly. It seems to be a drop-in directory, not a patch in the proper sense of the word. 16:44:43 How do I specify the type for the sum accumulator in loop? 16:45:11 Should I re-work it so that it ends up in src/syscalls/*.lisp? 16:45:38 (loop repeat 10 sum 1 of-type fixnum) 16:46:22 jsnell: Thanks, it wasn't obvious to me, or I didn't find it in the hyperspec, how that should be done. 16:47:07 lichtblau: I can do that. I'd just like to know if the code is good/complete enough for your purposes 16:47:12 no need for of-type in case of fixnum 16:47:16 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:47:36 stassats`: Thanks, I'm specifying double-float 16:48:12 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:48:38 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 16:48:52 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32F419.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:18 fe[nl]ix: okay. I can't say for certain, because I haven't tried using it yet. But it looks more complete than what I had. 16:49:18 I can just submit a patch later if there's anything missing from it. 16:49:38 ok, I'll integrate it then 16:49:38 seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:22 Booya! I'm getting the hang of type declarations. 330s -> 25s . And the code is still safe even with declarations like (double-float 0.0D0) because that equation will always return a positive value. 16:54:16 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:56:28 -!- superjoe [n=superjoe@129-219-191-61.nat.asu.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:00:17 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:01:43 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:01:45 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 17:02:02 Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has joined #lisp 17:03:35 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:04:55 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:23 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:08:16 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 17:10:38 Dodek [n=dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has joined #lisp 17:11:12 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:11:17 hey, i need a function which does simple string replace 17:11:22 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:11:27 something like (replace "foobarbaz" "bar" "xyzzy") => "fooxyzzybaz" 17:11:30 clhs replace 17:11:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_replac.htm 17:12:04 That won't work, though, you're changing the size. 17:12:27 minion: tell Dodek about pcre 17:12:29 Dodek: look at pcre: CMUCL Bindings to the Perl-Compatible Regular Expression library. http://www.cliki.net/pcre 17:12:37 Hmm, that's not what I meant 17:12:41 yeah, i've seen replace in standard library 17:12:49 tmh: i currently use ppcre 17:13:10 but it's an overkill in my current situation 17:13:42 Dodek: ppcre, that's what I meant. Maybe some SUBSEQ with CONCATENATE? 17:13:42 fe[nl]ix: Does gentoo come with a slime-cvs package? 17:13:44 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:13:55 tcr: yes 17:14:18 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:14:21 fe[nl]ix: Could you perhaps point the guy on slime-devel to it? 17:14:27 tmh: hmm, i'll think about it 17:14:29 thanks 17:14:46 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:14:51 -!- ejs [n=eugen@95.135.107.80] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:18:11 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-104-232.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 17:18:11 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:18:16 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:18:39 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:19:44 -!- levy_ [n=levy@89.134.66.153] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:21:49 If you exclude all threads Maas, Searles or Mahdu have or might comment on, reading c.l.l. is very fast... 17:22:46 not reading cll is even faster 17:22:51 (incf stassats`) 17:22:57 splittist: i checked it out yesterday after months of avoidance and everybody there seems to have become a troll. even the Ken. 17:23:07 It's essentially equivalent. 17:23:15 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has quit ["Valete!"] 17:23:23 so, trolling is contagious 17:23:27 they trolled a guy who posted a job ad! 17:23:34 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@209.131.62.113] has joined #lisp 17:23:57 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2C2DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:24:16 -!- peddie [n=peddie@TEP.MIT.EDU] has quit ["leaving"] 17:24:21 peddie [n=peddie@TEP.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:24:51 where cll has bitter haters, HN has lisp pompous "fans" who aren't themselves Lispers .. 17:25:05 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 17:27:23 gio123 [n=jhjhxh@gprs1.gprs.ge] has joined #lisp 17:27:32 -!- gio123 [n=jhjhxh@gprs1.gprs.ge] has left #lisp 17:30:29 _even_ the Ken? 17:30:48 Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-085-099.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 17:31:06 howdy drewc. 17:31:09 How's things? 17:32:35 I started killing threads and ignoring certain people on cll and now there is very little to read. 17:33:00 The thing with Maas is that he is not so much a troll as a troll magnet. 17:33:01 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:33:23 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 17:34:29 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32F419.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:37 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:35:36 *beach* agrees with tmh 17:35:56 tcr: well, i followed our football (soccer) team to the final in montreal and we lost, so in that sense things are horrible :). 17:36:14 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [] 17:36:16 drewc: :-D he was better once. a motivational speaker, albeit a drunk one, but not a troll .. 17:36:41 drewc: we're coming to Vancouver for the Olympics :-) 17:37:06 Regarding c.l.l. You know that it won't get better if you just look away. If you start doing good contributions, others will perhaps follow. 17:37:52 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 17:37:54 fusss: i'm trying to get out of the place for the olymics ... it's going to be a mad-house! 17:37:59 tcr: pjb has been doing that, replying with more code than prose, and it made no difference 17:38:37 fusss: pjb makes a difference, imo. He's one of the few reasons c.l.l is worth following. 17:38:58 if you killfile the trolls and ignore the drama, there's still some excellent content. 17:39:21 him and kaz are the only ones i read .. kaz actually brought me over to lisp 17:39:24 Bah, he can be a crackpot, too 17:39:35 (both kaz and pjb) 17:40:07 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:40:08 nh_ [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has joined #lisp 17:40:10 -!- nh_ [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:40:20 Adlai just tagged Sheeple 3.0 \o/ http://www.cliki.net/Sheeple 17:40:21 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:40:42 sykopomp: you gonna let him do that? 17:40:43 Dodek pasted "matching \ just before beginning of the line" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88906 17:40:51 fusss: I asked him to :P 17:41:21 when using ppcre, i'm unable to match '\' character when it occurs before an end of the line 17:41:22 sykopomp: already delegating? i see management in your near future 17:41:31 i guess it's an escaping issue 17:41:38 Dodek: \\ 17:41:39 but i don't know what i am doing wrong 17:41:46 fusss: ;D 17:41:48 fusss: i did that 17:42:02 check out lisppaste 17:42:11 *stassats`* tried to make a joke about Adlai being sykopomp's Sheeple but failed 17:42:18 Dodek: \\\\ ? 17:42:26 oh 17:42:42 i need to escape it first for lisp reader, and then for ppcre? 17:42:56 right 17:43:20 fusss: I mean, delegation is what sheeple is all about, after all ;D 17:43:25 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:43:28 i hope i will never need to look at this code again than 17:43:31 then* 17:43:33 thanks 17:43:41 minion: cl-interpol? 17:43:42 cl-interpol: CL-INTERPOL modifies the reader so that you can have interpolation of strings similar to Perl or Unix Shell scripts. http://www.cliki.net/cl-interpol 17:44:09 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:44:16 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-117-28.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 17:44:32 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:45:01 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:01 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:48:02 sykopomp: seniority has its benefits. thank goodness you found lisp 2 weeks before him ;-) 17:48:02 Dodek: cl-ppcre supports a s-exprs syntax for regular expression 17:48:22 aigon [n=ojof@92.84.0.162] has joined #lisp 17:48:31 fusss: I suspect there will be mutiny soon. He keeps trying to take over my project. 17:48:45 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:48:48 Fortunately, the Institution of Lisp is a meritocracy, and I usually heavily outcommit him :) 17:48:50 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:48:57 I gave him something else to do. 17:48:59 sykopomp: attila takes over all my projects 17:49:01 he's been catching up, though! 17:49:09 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:49:13 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:49:14 I won't tell yet what though 17:49:20 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:49:23 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:49:23 tcr: you mean adlai? 17:49:28 yeah 17:49:38 fun :D 17:49:50 you can borrow him for a bit, -I guess-. 17:50:03 emma [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-wtplwhhaydkdstpd] has joined #lisp 17:50:51 dlowe: damn hungarians! 17:50:56 :P 17:53:51 always hungary for moar 17:53:51 minion: chant 17:54:07 *sigh* 17:54:07 MORE CODE 17:54:07 fusss: you killed him :( 17:54:26 stassats`: Is there any magic needed for using unicode on slime + ccl? 17:54:43 InvisibleTomato [n=DEDULO@217.18.135.36] has joined #lisp 17:54:45 elliotstern [n=chatzill@129.21.40.30] has joined #lisp 17:55:12 Is there a good way to do colored text in the repl? 17:55:24 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:55:38 I'm working on a simple, stupid AI for a board game, I play, Go 17:55:38 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-52-218.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:55:43 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:43 tcr: start ccl with -K utf-8 17:56:31 stassats`: Thanks 17:56:49 minion: chant 17:56:50 MORE CODE 17:57:21 elliotstern: In what REPL? Perhaps you want to emit special escape codes for your terminal? 17:57:23 elliotstern: clip has a screen module which i used to do basic terminfo type screen coloring 17:57:27 Or use something like cl-ncurses 17:57:33 I have it printing out a board using an n-by-n list where the stones are prepresented by (W), (B) or NIL. It displays nicely enough, except that having everything be the same uniform green color 17:57:36 thanks 17:57:39 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 17:57:54 elliotstern: it will take you about an 1 hour to get a real GUI, fwiw 17:57:54 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:57:56 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 17:58:12 minion: tell elliotstern about Ltk 17:58:12 elliotstern: please see Ltk: LTK is a Common Lisp Graphics Toolkit Library for Tk, which provides a complete CLOS binding to the Tk widget set. http://www.cliki.net/Ltk 17:58:40 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:59:25 elliotstern: you can also render nice graphics with Skippy, cl-png or vecto and refresh the image via ajax to a browser; if no interactivity is needed 17:59:26 Thanks 17:59:36 np 17:59:36 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 18:00:06 I don't think I'll do a full GUI, because I can implement the GTP () 18:00:42 go text protocol, which means that other go programs with a gui can use my program as an AI 18:01:14 tcr: Clisp 18:01:14 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:01:47 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:01:59 does LTK work whenever and for the same purpose that GTK does? 18:02:24 emma: No. 18:02:53 elliotstern: if you use the clisp SCREEN module, feel free to ask me for help. i have a bunch of stuff using it. 18:03:54 Xach: aside from the broken pipe thing on win32, it's OKish. It's just that Tk has died since 2003, and it has been forked to oblivion by various "object" extensions 18:04:16 [incr Tk] was the last palatable one 18:05:13 -!- emma [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-wtplwhhaydkdstpd] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:05:20 fusss: Tk looks fine to me. 18:05:41 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 18:06:15 -!- InvisibleTomato [n=DEDULO@217.18.135.36] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:07:00 try installing a 3rd party widget .. 18:08:15 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:09:13 these days if I want a portable GUI I would probably hack webkit and write a web app 18:09:15 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-64-11.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:10:21 -!- mokogobo [n=mokogobo@71.31.214.210] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:10:56 yeah, webkit does 3d gpu raytracing via webgl or whatever now 18:11:00 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-235.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:11:09 tic: a ty czemu nie na #lisp-pl? 18:12:16 Summermute [n=scott@c-76-114-212-247.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:30 /join #maxclaims 18:12:33 doh 18:12:44 Ouch 18:12:54 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 18:16:01 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:51 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:21:52 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-104-232.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:22:06 -!- OmniMancer1 is now known as OmniMancer 18:22:26 InvisibleTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 18:22:42 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:23:12 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-085-099.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:23:37 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:23:54 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:24:14 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:30:10 Joreji_ [n=thomas@134.61.43.159] has joined #lisp 18:32:40 Random Q; What Lisp compilers best take advantage of programmer supplied type info to generate fast code? 18:32:41 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:32:44 fjji [n=ojof@92.85.223.153] has joined #lisp 18:33:08 oh 18:33:14 ASau [n=user@91.76.57.158] has joined #lisp 18:33:14 -!- yacin [n=yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 18:33:18 Summermute: What's "best" here? 18:33:25 -!- deepfire is now known as Snowpool 18:34:35 tcr: if the metric is "fast code", SBCL is "best" most of the time 18:34:43 and Summermute 18:34:53 Best = takes advantage of *most* proclamations and takes *best* advantage to generate fastest possible code. (Criteria off the top of my head) 18:35:01 though that's not a definite "SBCL is the best compiler" 18:35:08 I think you can customize the code generation of Allegro's compiler quite a lot, but it's all rather manual. 18:35:42 mathrick: there are two factors here, "fast code" but also "tak[ing] advantage of ... supplied type info" 18:36:00 Roger that 18:36:04 pkhuong: yes, but SBCL is very good at it too 18:36:22 it's also extremely helpful in telling you when the supplied info can't be taken advantage of and how to fix that 18:36:29 Summermute: In my recent foray into optimization, I found that it was very iterative, at least in SBCL. I found that I now start with (declare (speed optimize)), read the notes and play wack-a-mole. 18:36:33 Where would an ICC-level compiler that can only handle extremely precisely declared code fall? 18:36:47 Sort of odd - one would think a nice type decl would be a compiler's best friend :-) 18:36:58 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:36:59 tmh: not (optimize speed)? 18:37:06 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:37:14 sykopomp: Heh, that's what I meant. 18:37:25 Summermute: still, SBCL is very, very good at hinting what you *should* do to get fast code 18:37:30 SBCL's compiler compiles very fast code. 18:37:34 tmh: that's pretty much the plan. Get the compiler to optimize for speed and engage in a dialog with the compiler. 18:37:35 but it does so very very slowly :) 18:37:40 which is almost as important as generating fast code in the first palce 18:37:40 *place 18:38:20 there's a haiku lurking in here somewhere 18:38:23 pkhuong: Is it known that SBCL compiles inlined function with optimization settings of the call site? http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/c7de91bfd12a7a33 18:38:24 sykopomp: newer SBCL version bumped it up to just "very slow" :) 18:38:25 What is the state of SBCL's ports to non-Unix platforms (mac, windoze) 18:38:36 -!- aigon [n=ojof@92.84.0.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:38:36 *slowly 18:38:46 (let ((greeters nil)) (dotimes (x 10) (push #'(lambda () (format t "Hello ~a~%" x)) greeters)) greeters) 18:38:46 Mac is Unix, AFAIK 18:38:52 pkhuong: took me a while to understand the conversation. Now I have a better idea. 18:38:54 why do the above functions all print 10? 18:39:02 aigon [n=ojof@92.82.71.1] has joined #lisp 18:39:03 windows lags behind, the threads are still not completely figured out I believe 18:39:03 True enough, I'm dating myself :-) 18:39:04 sbcl's com / piler compiles very fast / code very slowly 18:39:08 and the memory mapping ickiness 18:39:08 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has quit [] 18:39:12 tcr: yes, and intentional 18:39:19 Krystof: nice! 18:39:20 fusss: you're closing over x, not 10. 18:39:38 fusss: by the time your dotimes is done, x is bound to 10, and each function looks up whatever the value of x is later on. 18:39:46 Lately, I've been frobbing ccl and so far it's a friendly player port wise 18:39:59 fuss: your implementation implements dotimes by assignment not by rebinding 18:40:00 Perhaps its commercial roots? 18:40:16 jsnell: How comes? 18:40:26 because it's really, really convenient 18:40:30 (let ((greeters nil)) (dotimes (x 10) (push (let ((x x)) (lambda () (format t "Hello ~a~%" x))) greeters)) greeters) works but ugly. (let ((x x))) 18:40:33 Summermute: given it began life as a purely mac compiler, I don't think it had any big pressure to be port-friendly 18:40:41 tcr: I think so. Add a declaration in the inlined function if you want to override the context. 18:40:43 fusss: that's The Right Thing. 18:40:46 (though probably also against the spec) 18:40:47 sheesh, over seven years ago? I feel old. (http://www.advogato.org/person/crhodes/diary/34.html) 18:41:02 mathrick: Hmmm. True enough. Whence the porting efforts, then? 18:41:33 steel bank common lisp / compiles beauty carefully / finished by winter 18:41:33 jsnell: I think it should be mentioned in the manual. 18:41:34 Summermute: the consultancy business. 18:41:40 I miss the old days 18:42:15 -!- ASau [n=user@91.76.57.158] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:42:20 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:42:28 tcr: that's both clozure and clisp 18:42:28 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:29 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:42:42 tcr: probably true 18:43:04 clisp has an active consultancy biz? 18:43:25 jsnell: Will you do right away, or should I open a ticket? 18:44:05 the latter (don't have sf ssh keys set up at work) 18:44:29 alright 18:45:06 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:45:37 ASau [n=user@91.76.57.158] has joined #lisp 18:46:03 fusss: so? It's still correct 18:46:03 fusss: arnesi offers (rebind (x) ...) , which just expands to LET... i prefer the explicit let, but i'm like that. 18:46:25 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 18:46:42 -!- InvisibleTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:46:48 mathrick: it's correct but suprising 18:46:52 jsnell: you're at work? At 8:45? The Googletentacles have wrapped themselves thoroughly around you 18:46:52 fusss: "It is implementation-dependent whether dolist establishes a new binding of var on each iteration or whether it establishes a binding for var once at the beginning and then assigns it on any subsequent iterations. " 18:46:59 fusss: not at all 18:47:14 fusss: it's not surprising if you've read the DOLIST documentation :P 18:47:26 drewc: who does? :-D 18:47:32 Krystof: not really, my workday started at around 2pm :-P 18:47:59 well, i did way back when i discovered that it was mutating a binding rather then rebinding, and i wanted to find out if that was required :). 18:48:09 *fusss* does all his spec reading via the slime status window thing that does hints when autocompleting 18:48:38 Summermute: I had an analysis that was taking between 3.5 and 4 hours per case. I did another audit/optimization cycle this morning and it now executes in about 30min. 18:49:19 tmh: Wow! 18:49:32 tmh: What was the magic? 18:49:36 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@72.228.150.44] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:49:36 tmh: wow, your first code must have been lame! 18:49:41 (setf *print-pretty* nil) 18:49:44 or maybe you started out using ruby 18:49:58 *Xach* got his first real big wins that way 18:49:59 Xach: heh, that usually works for me too :) 18:50:04 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 18:50:10 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 18:50:10 fusss: Well if you never read the spec, you'll miss out gems like.. Did you know that all DO... macros expand to an implicit tagbody? 18:50:14 Krystof: :-P exactly. Intentionally write crappy code so you can claim big improvements. 18:50:24 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 18:50:29 Krystof: ruby would probably be much much slower than that. 18:50:30 another nice case was that guy doing DSP processing with 600x performance gains 18:50:30 tmh: that was the strategy of the first perl 6 implementation 18:50:54 Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has joined #lisp 18:50:57 tmh: now I understand the problem with mathematicians... they never get to step 2. 18:51:21 drewc: Maybe I'm scheme-drunk, but i'd think the "natural" modern implementation of dolist would be to create a fresh binding on each iteration (or act just as if) 18:51:23 Summermute: (declare (optimize speed)), read the notes, add type declarations, organize the equations differently, rinse, repeat. 18:51:48 fusss: oh right, I know what you can use... 18:51:51 So a nice little cocktail ;-) 18:52:15 (lambda (&aux (x x)) (format ...)) How about that? 18:52:32 *sykopomp* continues the quest for sensible use of &aux 18:52:33 Summermute: My first pass through this code was done with no attention to performance. I just got it to work. 18:52:57 sykopomp: devilish! 18:53:04 pkhuong: hey, I resemble that category 18:53:10 Summermute: In general, I don't worry about performance, it's usually not an issue. 18:53:24 tmh: I'm a premature optimizer, but then my g'friend could tell you that :-)))) 18:53:26 tcr: I knew that! 18:53:34 Summermute: Woah! T-M-I 18:53:35 -!- ASau [n=user@91.76.57.158] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:53:40 :-) 18:53:45 sykopomp: there is no sensible use... 18:53:50 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:53:54 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-72-147.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:53:57 Krystof: the tagbody bit? 18:53:57 hmm, is there any publically available code that'd implement live image upgrades in non-trivial settings? Preferably commented code to do that :) 18:54:01 foom: I disagree. &aux can be quite handy. 18:54:16 sykopomp: for avoiding an indentation level? 18:54:27 -!- fjji [n=ojof@92.85.223.153] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:54:31 I discovered it when sbcl for some huge number of revisions had a random extra character in some humongous dotimes, probably resulting from a cat leaning on a keyboard 18:54:37 foom: for avoiding (let ((x x)) (lambda () (format ...))) 18:54:48 (lambda (&aux (x x)) (format ...)) is much nicer, imo. 18:55:03 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has quit [Client Quit] 18:55:03 I wondered why on earth we weren't getting warnings, and discovered that it was because it was legal 18:55:14 Krystof: Haha. Did you also know about #0Affff? (cf planet.lisp and my last blog posting) 18:55:21 foom: the BOA constructor use is also quite legitimate. 18:55:21 sykopomp: does that do what you think it does? 18:55:24 sykopomp: Excuse my ignorance, but what in the world is &aux ? 18:55:28 tcr: I did, yes 18:55:37 pkhuong: it should, yes.... I should probably double-check. 18:55:42 tcr: I knew what it meant before you explained! 18:55:46 b 18:55:54 Summermute: From the french, presumably. Essentially, a local variable, but declared in a lambda list. 18:56:08 thanks for the bloglinkage -- if only I could use the extra googlekarma for something useful 18:56:08 do I get points? 18:56:08 sykopomp: the evaluation times aren't equivalent. 18:56:08 Summermute: (lambda (&aux (x 'foo)) ..) is like (lambda () (let ((x 'foo)) ...)) 18:56:17 pkhuong: oh. Hmm... 18:56:21 sykopomp: and LET and LAMBDA don't commute. 18:56:21 *tcr* takes his hat off to you. 18:56:23 sykopomp: right, what you just said. 18:56:26 that wouldn't work then, would it?... 18:56:27 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 18:56:45 Wow, a "compiler" output for Hello World. Yep, every last file of it: http://pyjs.org/examples/helloworld/output/ 18:56:47 sykopomp: the only thing &aux is good for is to not have the let as the first thing inside a function body 18:56:48 hey. I tried! 18:56:49 it's stupid 18:56:56 Ahhh, that kind of rings a (very old) bell 18:57:04 foom: BOA constructors -> perfectly legitimate. 18:57:14 Seems like a stupid syntactic shorthand, IMHO 18:57:27 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:57:54 tcr: but NIL strings are still better, IMHO 18:58:01 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-172-47.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:58:06 foom: (defstruct (foo (:constructor make-foo (bar &aux (baz (do-something-with bar))))) ...) 18:58:14 I'm still not sure if they don't take the CL type system out from the inside 18:58:39 *stassats`* knew how to set read-base back to 10, but wasn't paying attention to #0A 18:58:57 foom: if a good old fasioned Pascal or C function can begin with variable declarations, it's just fine and dandy for a Lisp function to begin with a let expression, IMHO. 18:59:08 sykopomp: that's not /really/ a lambda list...it's syntax that looks superficially like one but isn't really the same. 18:59:08 *Xach* also knew the 10 trick 18:59:17 Heh, how? 18:59:22 10. 18:59:24 a trailing dot on a number 18:59:24 yeah 18:59:27 bravo 18:59:37 (+ 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1) ;) 18:59:39 foom: No True Lambda List should ever have &aux, then? ;D 18:59:45 what about just (setf *read-base* A)? 18:59:46 well, A would work to 18:59:52 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:58 i think i would like to compile a list of things that seem corner-ish like that, and make a quiz. 18:59:59 Xach: wait, so floats are read in base 10? 19:00:09 mathrick: no 19:00:14 mathrick: 10. isn't a float. 19:00:15 it would beat some of the quizzes i've seen on the face book. 19:00:24 pkhuong: oh? 19:00:34 I failed to see a way to do it perfectly portable (i.e. escaping symbols) in light of modern mode 19:00:47 they're corner cases until *you* know about them, of course. 19:00:53 then they are perfectly natural. 19:01:06 so what is 10. ? 19:01:08 how widespread is modern mode, anyway? 19:01:15 I thought of (#.(intern (symbol-name '#:setf)) ...) but a global modification of *read-base* should also active within #. 19:01:15 mathrick: why don't you try it? 19:01:26 I've been thinking, lately, that it would be quite nice to have it. 19:01:50 clisp has modern mode 19:01:51 it's pretty sketchy that 10. isn't a float, IMO. :) 19:02:09 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:02:15 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["leaving"] 19:02:19 sykopomp: How would you use it? CamelCase? 19:02:34 Sorry, again my 20 year old Lisp knowledge - what is "modern mode" ?? 19:02:44 preserve case, is it? 19:02:48 Summermute: case-sensitive. 19:02:52 Summermute: http://www.franz.com/support/documentation/current/doc/case.htm 19:02:52 foom: Really? Per 2.3.1, it looks to fall under the syntax for integers. 19:02:57 Summermute: case-preserving reader with lowercase symbols 19:03:03 oh boy, I like case sensitive :-) 19:03:17 nyef: I meant sketchy as in "I don't like the spec". 19:03:20 nyef: sorry for any confusion. :) 19:03:24 Ah. Fair enough. 19:03:29 pkhuong: I did, but it doesn't tell me "why did it read as 10 and not 16?" 19:03:39 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:51 modern mode is where symbols in CL are lower-case and readtable-case is :preserve 19:03:51 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:03:52 mathrick: then you also clearly saw that it was an integer and not a float. 19:03:55 I used to like case sensitivity, but I'm fully into lowercase + dashes now. less shifts and things. 19:04:15 tmh: no, but case sensitivity would be very useful for interfacing with other languages/APIs 19:04:19 tmh: you can use that, in a case sensitive mode. 19:04:20 foom: iirc, MacLisp (or ZetaLisp) used $ to denote fixnums or something like that 19:04:24 pkhuong: yes, but I don't understand why a dot makes it read in base 10 19:04:29 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:04:34 clhs 2.3.1 19:04:34 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ca.htm 19:04:35 tmh: scheme's symbols are case-sensitive, and they still use foo-bar naming schemes. 19:04:37 -!- smackarang [n=user@91.190.137.166] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:04:42 I hate case sensitivity on the principle that if it exists, people will use it 19:04:54 fjji [n=ojof@92.84.27.52] has joined #lisp 19:05:01 dlowe: doesn't seem to happen a lot with scheme, though. 19:05:09 foom, sykopomp: Obviously. 19:05:14 dlowe: and case transformation leads to (export "FOO-BAR"), which is just as awful 19:05:16 that seems kind of bogus. And again, I've seen CL code that uses CamelCase. 19:05:18 Oh, that's cute. Float exponents are read in *read-base*, but the rest is read in decimal. 19:05:24 ok, inspired by piso: assume that you have just started your CL and done (delete-package "CL"), unlocking packages if necessary 19:05:25 mathrick: #:foo-bar. 19:05:28 your task is to recover 19:05:37 clhs 2.3.2.1.1 19:05:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_cbaa.htm 19:05:48 pkhuong: I know. But many people still use "FOO-BAR" 19:06:00 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:06:06 mathrick: that's why 19:06:08 Krystof: I'd recover by killing the lisp process and starting a fresh one. 19:06:15 pragmatist 19:06:18 Krystof: Aren't all the symbols still available from the cl-user package? 19:06:35 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229241177.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 19:06:46 tcr: try it and see 19:06:48 Wait no 19:06:53 they're used not imported 19:07:03 honestly, it's a bit odd that float digits are always read in base 10 19:07:22 How old is modern mode, btw? 19:07:30 pretty old 19:07:36 10 years at least I think 19:07:39 francogrex [n=user@189.239-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 19:08:11 A lame attempt (a very simple start anyway) to make a R-like parser: http://paste.lisp.org/display/88913 19:11:40 -!- coyo [n=alex@144.162.128.141] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:13:02 sandin [i=lalalal@166-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:07 plyrDragan [n=plyrDrag@95.85.147.166] has joined #lisp 19:14:01 -!- plyrDragan [n=plyrDrag@95.85.147.166] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:14:24 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:14:25 nyef: I don't think so 19:14:30 plyrDragan [n=plyrDrag@95.85.147.166] has joined #lisp 19:14:30 clhs 22.1.3.1.3 19:14:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_acac.htm 19:14:35 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:14:41 ... Finally, the power of ten by which the fraction must be multiplied to equal the original number is printed as a decimal integer. 19:14:59 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229241177.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:15:04 Geralt [n=Geralt@91.50.244.25] has joined #lisp 19:15:16 -!- plyrDragan [n=plyrDrag@95.85.147.166] has quit [Client Quit] 19:15:19 Therefore for readable printing the read syntax must be decimal as well. 19:15:36 Krystof: that's an interesting problem 19:15:55 I know at least SLIME can't be used to do that :) 19:17:41 i bet slime would crash immediately 19:17:48 it does 19:17:56 well, gets confused terribly 19:18:36 plyrDragan [n=plyrDrag@166-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:52 kpreid: The -parse format- per 2.3.1 says that it's in the current input radix. 19:18:55 Krystof: do you know a solution other than restart? 19:19:02 -!- plyrDragan [n=plyrDrag@166-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:19:08 plyrDragan [n=plyrDrag@166-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:08 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@129.21.40.30] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:19:21 portable solution? 19:19:23 -!- plyrDragan [n=plyrDrag@166-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:19:37 I think that'd be the only one that really counts 19:20:03 I'm trying to think of a reader macro that'd be of use 19:20:08 portably? No, I don't think so 19:20:27 oh, that's less interesting then. I thought there was a portable way out 19:20:42 -!- aigon [n=ojof@92.82.71.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:21:32 save symbols before deleting? 19:21:43 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:57 that's not really "recovery" if you plan for it :) 19:22:07 fail-safe 19:22:13 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:22:28 Can any of the information be recovered from the infodb? 19:22:36 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:22:40 Or does deleting the package purge the infodb? 19:22:48 no, it's all still there 19:22:57 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 19:23:06 plyrDragan [n=plyrDrag@166-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:38 -!- plyrDragan [n=plyrDrag@166-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:23:54 Summermute66 [n=scott@c-76-114-212-247.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:00 nyef: it sure would be nice if we could convert the infodb so CL hash tables + extensions and get weakness. 19:24:15 plyrDragan [n=plyrDrag@166-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:19 what's infodb? 19:24:37 pkhuong: Wasn't there a patch a while back to use symbol plists or a hidden symbol plist instead of the infodb? 19:25:37 coyo [n=alex@144.162.128.141] has joined #lisp 19:25:48 jlf` [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 19:26:08 mathrick: sbcl's thingy 19:26:22 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:26:42 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:27:08 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.208.109] has joined #lisp 19:27:18 btw, I think I might finally commit a patch that *reduces* core size (: 19:27:37 -!- plyrDragan [n=plyrDrag@166-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:28:16 \o/ 19:28:17 plyrMiodrag [n=plyrMiod@166-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:21 plyrDragan [n=plyrDrag@166-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:23 do it soon before I freeze for releae 19:28:39 oh right.. I should do my queue also. 19:28:47 (I've got work in progress to bloat it all up again, but not before release) 19:29:22 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 19:29:40 I load the tls index before the code runs for operation on specials. 19:29:52 bah, niche platform 19:30:04 -!- plyrDragan [n=plyrDrag@166-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:30:32 (nice) 19:30:36 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:30:38 -!- sandin [i=lalalal@166-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has left #lisp 19:30:49 -!- plyrMiodrag [n=plyrMiod@166-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:30:49 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:31:36 yes, please do commit 19:34:56 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229241177.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 19:36:26 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:36:46 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:38:15 I've got a minor cleanup in mind for the core-dump code... And I think it might be reasonable to dump a page table from genesis on gencgc ports instead of having the "partial pickup" thing during startup. 19:38:31 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-76-114-212-247.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:38:55 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:39:06 lghtng [n=quassel@72.234.93.226] has joined #lisp 19:39:06 -!- lghtng [n=quassel@72.234.93.226] has quit [Client Quit] 19:39:29 commit commit commit! 19:39:42 someone's got to do all the work around here, and it's not going to be me 19:39:42 Using clbuild, why is it that asdf:*central-registry* doesn't contain the current directory? 19:39:59 *nyef* hasn't actually implemented or tested these ideas yet. 19:41:12 hm. Have there been any plans to add directory-searching to asdf to hopefully get rid of that obnoxious symlink thing? 19:41:35 sykopomp: You, ah, -do- know that you can add a custom system-definition-search-function fairly easily, right? 19:41:56 nyef: I didn't know, actually, no. 19:42:15 it's amazing what people don't know 19:42:33 about as amazing as the fact that X remained ugly for decades because the default configuration was ugly. 19:42:42 *sykopomp* wonders how he was supposed to know at all. 19:43:07 tic: #lisp-pl! 19:43:11 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-73-208.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:44:07 sykopomp: well, the documentation for FIND-SYSTEM (in the asdf manual, among other places) would be the place to point you at after the fact 19:44:25 SimonH [n=simonh@92.29.181.208] has joined #lisp 19:44:26 Xach: I was going to say that I don't know why people think that symlinks are obnoxious 19:44:45 Krystof: they don't work on windows? 19:45:01 not that I use windows, but a lot of people do, and I end up having to tell them how the heck to set things up >:( 19:45:01 They work poorly at best on windows. 19:45:02 oh, so we have to cripple all other platforms too? 19:45:22 "this technique doesn't work on windows!" "better not use it anywhere it does work, then" 19:45:31 now _that_ sounds obnoxious to me 19:45:56 Krystof: I also dislike having to symlink systems manually, as opposed to just expanding a tarball into a directory and having it Just Work 19:45:58 clbuild, asdf and *default-pathname-defaults*, anyone? 19:46:32 sykopomp: and as you now know, you don't have to 19:46:37 it's also been a problem when I've tried to help others get started with lisp. 19:46:57 So, I decided to look at my SBCL arm-port tree, and I found some uncommitted changes. 19:47:02 minion: paste 82073? 19:47:03 Paste number 82073: "Possible ARM pseudo-atomic" by nyef in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/82073 19:47:39 And it took me a bit to figure out how the heck it was supposed to work. 19:50:09 Is it possible to be too clever here? 19:50:48 why is (fixnumize 1) not just as good as (fixnumize tn-reg-offset)? 19:50:48 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:51:00 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:51:04 Because temp-reg-tn is pseduo-atomic-interrupted. 19:51:09 nyef: (re float) So it does. Clearly a bug in the spec. 19:51:20 (that it disagrees with itself) 19:51:48 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:51:48 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@188-23-92-74.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:52:28 nyef: you could use a different bit for pseudo-atomic-interrupted 19:52:35 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-72-147.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:52:49 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:53:06 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:53:10 I could, but I needed a temp reg in order to manipulate pseudo-atomic in the first place, and this saves a memory access and an instruction or two in the normal case. 19:53:28 do you have an alloc-tn? 19:53:32 Nope. 19:54:06 can temp-reg-tn ever have an offset of 1? 19:54:29 I really don't see why you need to use the offset of the reg-tn 19:54:49 Because the temp-reg-tn isn't in a fixed location. 19:54:49 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:55:06 And the runtime needs to be able to frob it in order to indicate interruption. 19:55:10 oh, oh wait, yes 19:55:41 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:55:52 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 19:57:17 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-235.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:58:06 So, I'm fairly sure it'll work, but is it too clever to use? 19:58:11 no 19:58:51 I do get the feeling that it should be well-written-up somewhere, though. 19:59:02 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-19-159.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:59:20 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:59:24 hello 19:59:33 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-235.dynamic.ngi.it] has left #lisp 19:59:38 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-235.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:59:44 nyef: 'see #lisp circa autumn 09'... 19:59:45 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:00:08 KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-14-196.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:37 splittist: Yeah, but no. 20:01:15 nyef: I've written up the inconsistency on the cliki ansi revisions page 20:01:18 didi [n=user@189.68.56.226] has joined #lisp 20:02:07 rpg [n=rpg@c-75-73-42-183.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:38 -!- splittist [n=David@85.4.220.156] has quit ["heh"] 20:02:49 I'm learning lisp and feeling that I am stuck with my idea of C programming. Does someone have a source for learning functional programming? 20:03:29 sykopomp: re non-symlink ASDF operation, we use this: http://dwim.hu/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=HEAD%20hu.dwim.asdf;a=headblob;f=/source/workspace.lisp 20:03:48 elurin [n=user@85.106.145.156] has joined #lisp 20:03:59 attila_lendvai: awesome! thanks a lot. 20:04:18 didi: Lisp isn't functional, it just supports function-level programming. 20:04:25 -!- majhool [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["leaving"] 20:04:37 didi: why do you feel stuck? 20:04:54 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-52-218.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:06:02 sykopomp: Well, I feel that the language itself can be used to metalinguistic but I would like to experiment with functional programming and Lisp seems to be a good fit. 20:06:03 sykopomp: the problem with search functions is that they are dead slow. the problem with the above is that if you save a core and there were changes on the disk you need to re-read manually or just rebuild your core (what i do) 20:06:43 dlowe: I keep trying to make for and whiles and that does not feel "right". Don't know. 20:06:50 didi: Common Lisp code tends to be more procedural than other lisps, such as scheme. 20:07:07 *attila_lendvai* goes to sleep 20:07:11 didi: however, you can really program in whatever style you wish in CL 20:07:15 didi: I use (loop for ... while ... do ...) all the time :D 20:07:20 if you want to write functional code, nothing is stopping you. 20:07:48 Adlai: But I think I should some lead as I've never done that. 20:08:05 didi: the best thing to do is to find some CL code, a library or something, and read it 20:08:15 sykopomp: I am trying both. 20:08:37 didi: have you tried looking at PCL? 20:08:53 dlowe: Not really. Just read the name somewhere. 20:09:01 minion: tell didi about pcl 20:09:02 didi: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 20:09:03 minion: give didi a copy of PCL 20:09:04 didi: you speak nonsense 20:09:12 how rude 20:09:17 didi: If you are just trying to get the idea of functional programming, is it too difficult to limit yourself to functions that take N arguments and return a single value? 20:09:28 Xach: it was all minion's fault, clearly. I was being polite. 20:09:51 didi: perhaps you're interested in using functions that take functions as parameters? 20:10:46 tmh, dlowe: I am interesting on learn new things and ways. :-) 20:10:46 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:11:34 mnl [n=mnl@217.230.192.84] has joined #lisp 20:11:54 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:11:55 -!- rpg [n=rpg@c-75-73-42-183.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:12:03 rpg [n=rpg@c-75-73-42-183.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:08 demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-222-188.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:46 For example, I was moved by the "no side-effect" thing. 20:13:09 I will take a look at the book, thank you. 20:13:12 didi: Common Lisp has side-effects. Are you interested in lisp or in functional programming? 20:13:20 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:13:27 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:13:41 *sykopomp* insists on distinguishing functional and function-level programming. 20:13:43 didi: your code will benefit greatly from writing many functions as side-effect free. It's not something to get hung up on, though 20:14:10 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 20:14:11 tmh: Lisp and functional programming. I thought that the two were somewhat related. 20:14:48 only insofar as LISP was (one of?) the first languages inspired by the lambda calc. 20:15:08 "the" lambda calc? 20:15:17 "a" lambda calc. 20:15:18 no one ever speaks of "the" differential calculus :p 20:15:52 dlowe: No, but I've heard "the" used with lambda calc, and some some other calculi. 20:15:57 minion: before? 20:15:58 before: Before you start learning Lisp and fixing all the wrongs in it, read this: http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/lisp-answers/ . It will save you, and us, much frustration 20:16:00 I was a bit confused by it, but apparently it's okay? 20:16:14 arbscht: good link 20:16:19 didi: you might want to read that, since you're new to lisp 20:16:27 sykopomp: I think it's silly, myself 20:16:40 dlowe: go complain to mathematicians. 20:16:51 arbscht: I'll read it. Thank you. 20:17:07 Q: Is there a Lisp cabal? 20:17:15 -!- coyo [n=alex@144.162.128.141] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:17:48 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:18:22 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:18:33 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:18:51 i like the sheep 20:18:58 ..on that page :) 20:19:05 heh :) 20:19:31 The sheep is awesome. 20:19:54 sykopomp, there are quite a few. pick one! 20:19:59 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 20:20:28 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 20:20:47 -!- fjji [n=ojof@92.84.27.52] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:20:54 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:21:18 lnostdal: http://omploader.org/vMmJmcA What about this one? ;D 20:21:21 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 20:21:53 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:22:04 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:22:18 sykopomp, they seem to have been exposed to some sort of radio active material .. aliens? :) 20:22:27 :D 20:23:39 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:24:08 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:24:25 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:25:37 What does "corrupt fasl file: losing FOP" mean? out of date fasl for this version of sbcl? 20:25:39 -!- morphling [n=stefan@89.14.132.193] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:25:52 arbscht: Ok, so the text says that I should look elsewhere, but I won't. 20:26:18 LiamH: It means to recompile the file, or if you don't have source, to go to whoever has source and get them to recompile it for you. 20:26:22 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:26:28 LiamH: delete fasls & retry 20:27:09 jcowan, fe[nl]ix: OK, I've seen a different message for obsolete fasls, I don't remember seeing this one before. 20:27:17 didi: alright, proceed at your own risk, I guess 20:27:38 -!- Summermute66 [n=scott@c-76-114-212-247.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:27:44 arbscht: As it's always, I guess. ;-) 20:27:45 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:28:17 LiamH: In theory, there is metadata so that SBCL will refuse to load an inappropriate fasl. 20:29:22 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:30:03 ASau [n=user@91.76.57.158] has joined #lisp 20:30:30 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:31:52 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.221] has joined #lisp 20:32:01 didi, i haven't followed the discussion here closely, but there are "functional" data-structure libraries for CL around .. e.g., fset comes to mind 20:32:40 coyo [n=alex@144.162.128.141] has joined #lisp 20:33:30 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:30 -!- ASau [n=user@91.76.57.158] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:33:42 -!- cddr [n=user@5ad962ef.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:34:55 -!- SimonH [n=simonh@92.29.181.208] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:35:37 lispm [n=joswig@g224120125.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:35:45 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:36:28 -!- lispm [n=joswig@g224120125.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:36:48 lispm [n=joswig@g224120125.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:37:58 lnostdal: Thank you. I am reading the fset page. It's kinda silly but until now I haven't realized that I was actually changing a existing list, in the same way that I change a array passed by reference. 20:39:10 ok, didi .. CL does have some ways to do "functional programming" on some of its built in data-structures too .. e.g., you can use REMOVE instead of DELETE 20:40:09 didi: you're not necessarily changing lists. You can optionally do so, but a lot of list operators in CL actually share structure. 20:40:33 it's just that it -allows- you to destructively alter structure (usually for efficiency. No need to cons if you know you don't need to) 20:43:22 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:45:40 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:45:51 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:45:57 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-117-28.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:46:12 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:48:58 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 20:49:03 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:51:25 marioxcc [n=user@201.132.54.169] has joined #lisp 20:51:39 -!- nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:52:12 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:55:01 possibly offtopic, but: Do any of you have a preference wrt some method of making nice slides for a presentation? 20:55:23 -!- Joreji_ [n=thomas@134.61.43.159] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 20:55:33 Unfortunately, my experience with slides is only with powerpoint, and I need to put some slides together... 20:55:34 I use OpenOffice myself. 20:56:08 sykopomp: haven't tried it, but there's a way to use emacs org-mode for presentations: http://emacs-fu.blogspot.com/2009/10/writing-presentations-with-org-mode-and.html 20:57:01 oh. I was considering just using Org-mode. Click. 20:57:54 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:58:19 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 20:59:03 levy [n=levy@89.223.133.91] has joined #lisp 20:59:18 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 20:59:20 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 20:59:42 sykopomp: I used acclaim the last time I put a presentation together. 21:00:07 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:00:26 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:00:29 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:00:51 I hear good things of Huckster, too. 21:00:58 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:02:10 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has joined #lisp 21:14:56 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:55 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:16:33 How can I test if my implementation supports unicode? is there a simple test? 21:18:09 wow. http://emacs-fu.blogspot.com/2009/10/writing-presentations-with-org-mode-and.html This is actually really amazing. 21:18:22 francogrex: (code-char 12345) 21:18:23 minion: memo for ryepup: Thanks for the link! This is really great :D 21:18:24 Remembered. I'll tell ryepup when he/she/it next speaks. 21:18:56 tcr: thx 21:19:34 NIL :( 21:19:59 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:20:10 francogrex: It depends on what "support Unicode" means. There may (I don't say, there are) implementations which have extended characters in CHARACTER but not in STRING-CHARACTER. 21:20:33 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:21:18 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:21:38 Bah (make-array 20 :fill-pointer 10 :initial-contents "0123456789") doesn't work 21:21:55 jcowan: ok. Honestly I don't think i will be using any unicode "features" in the near future whether in extended characters or other. I only wanted to test outta curiosity 21:22:37 So you're okay with the strictly Western European data-handling capabilities? 21:22:40 s/the // 21:23:12 dragi [n=user@82.113.121.147] has joined #lisp 21:23:19 jcowan: for the time being yes 21:23:25 Phoodus [i=foo@68.231.37.148] has joined #lisp 21:23:40 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:25:57 yacin [n=yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 21:26:01 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:26:10 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:26:48 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 21:28:23 Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-085-111.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 21:29:21 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has left #lisp 21:30:37 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 21:31:15 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:31:30 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:32:04 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:39:08 -!- francogrex [n=user@189.239-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:40:01 -!- LiamH [n=none@132.250.138.103] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:41:50 -!- kerimbasol [n=kerim@85.107.137.28] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:41:54 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:42:07 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 21:43:05 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:43:07 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 21:43:31 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:47:20 kye_square [n=kye@66.49.133.132] has joined #lisp 21:47:51 (loop for x from 0 to 10 and y = x do (print y)) i really want y to be bound to the same value as x, a la let*, it's off by one 21:48:02 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:48:38 (loop for x to 10 for y = x do (print y)) 21:48:54 Yes, you have to make sure that the scope is right. 21:49:02 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 21:49:37 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 21:51:16 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.133.91] has quit ["..."] 21:51:24 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 21:51:28 fusss: and introduces parallel binding 21:52:35 -!- coyo [n=alex@144.162.128.141] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:53:11 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:53:15 tcr: You know, I ran into that same problem with make-array a while back. I think I ended up just setting a subsequence or something. 21:53:36 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:53:45 nyef: (let ((v (make-array ...))) (replace v init-seq) v) 21:54:25 Something like that, yeah. 21:54:31 Oh (setf (subseq ..)) is replace I forgot 21:54:46 SUBSEQ also rings the consing bell for me 21:54:49 always 21:55:24 (map-into (make-array 20 :fill-pointer 10) 'identity "0123456789") 21:55:54 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:06 francogrex [n=user@189.239-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 21:56:37 Ah, yeah, I did (setf (subseq *table* 0) +initial-table-contents+), effectively. 21:56:50 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-57-158.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:57:01 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 21:57:14 in sbcl (code-char 1234) >> #\CYRILLIC_CAPITAL_LETTER_A_WITH_DIAERESIS whatever that is! 21:57:29 I find (setf subseq), like (setf find-class), kind of intimidating 21:57:47 CYRILLIC is like russian or something i guess 21:58:14 just as latin is like american 21:58:19 cyrillic is a script, russian language uses cyrillic script 21:58:30 funny that in the latest ECL that says it supports unicde, the evaluation above still gives nil 21:58:50 did you pass --enable-unicode to configure? 21:58:54 not latin, roman alphabet you mean 21:58:59 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:59:04 yeah 21:59:08 tcr: good question 21:59:28 nyef: does that give you an array of 20, or 10 elements? 21:59:57 francogrex: (member :unicode *features*)? 22:00:00 knobo: that depends on how you created your array obviously 22:00:12 *francogrex* says : Doh. back to compilation again 22:00:24 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:00:25 ok. I did something wrong when I tested. 22:00:38 knobo: My application ends up with an array of 100 elements with a fill pointer set to something around 40, and the first 40 elements filled in. 22:00:43 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:01:14 I'm learning about arrays these days. 22:01:21 stassats: (member :unicode *features*) evaluates to nil 22:01:34 but even in sbcl 22:01:35 I can't belive I coded lisp for a couple of years, and never touched arrays... 22:01:41 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.155.177] has joined #lisp 22:01:44 well, it's for ecl 22:01:56 knobo: Well you probably did use vectors, right? 22:02:01 i have strings with format strings inside them and i want to use them as stream arguments to format .. how? 22:02:15 stream?? 22:02:19 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-218-18.51-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 22:02:22 fusss: ... -What- do you want to do? 22:02:23 i will have to recompile again. tomorrow 22:02:34 tcr: I think you can give format a string with a fill pointer 22:02:39 clhs format 22:02:40 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm 22:02:46 Adlai: Sure but the first bit doesn't fit with that 22:02:53 -!- francogrex [n=user@189.239-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:02:53 "strings with format strings" 22:03:00 oh, true. 22:03:04 (format *base-url* "bar") where (defparameter *base-url* "http://foo.com/") 22:03:27 I do this throughout my code in sbcl/linux and it works, btw. 22:03:39 fusss: Wouldn't it be easier to (format nil "~Abar" *base-url*) ? 22:03:46 tcr: unconsciously 22:04:02 nyef: that's probably what I do 22:04:13 it's 9AM, sheesh, how quickly a nite passes 22:04:18 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:04:31 fusss: Ah ok so you're probably looking for ~? 22:04:50 fusss: (format nil "Foo ~?" "~A" :foo) 22:05:07 Heh. So, passing an integer beyond char-code-limit to code-char causes undefined behavior? 22:05:16 s/~?/~@?/ 22:05:16 the application I was hacking on had 10 years anniversary while I was there, and arrays are not used. 22:05:23 fusss: The night passes quickly for me too, namely while sleeping. 22:05:24 alright, cheers folks! 22:05:29 as far as I can remember. 22:05:33 jcowan: :-D 22:05:44 knobo: if it uses vectors, or strings, it does use arrays 22:05:57 Time was I could pull the all-nighters, but now it's to bed at 3 AM no matter what. 22:05:59 fusss: (symbol-value :-D) => :-D 22:06:06 tcr: In that sense yes. 22:06:24 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-218-18.51-151.net24.it] has quit [Client Quit] 22:06:28 coyo [n=alex@144.162.128.141] has joined #lisp 22:06:31 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp066.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:06:50 jcowan: grandpa! 22:07:40 I remember vaguely that I once tried to optimize something using a list with an array, but there was no performance gain for that case. 22:07:47 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:07:52 at least not notisable 22:07:53 fusss: Yes indeed, of a bouncing baby grandboy of 15 months. 22:08:01 make that 16 22:08:06 they grow up so fast, these whippersnapperse 22:08:06 tcr: do you know anything about thread description in swank for sbcl? 22:08:07 jcowan: grats. 22:08:11 Thanks. 22:08:28 stassats`: It can probably go now 22:08:30 Of course, one reason to stay up to 3 AM is to try to get the kid to sleep. 22:08:32 it seems like some stale code 22:08:34 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:08:46 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:08:55 I also tried to optimize alists with hash-tables. and the conclution was that you need a really big alist before hash-tables are better. 22:09:06 big is relativ... 22:09:13 stassats`: Yeah, it basically is after the recent work by teje 22:09:20 doesn't it start making a difference at like 10 or so items? 22:09:30 stassats`: there's also call-with-thread-description in swank.lisp 22:09:36 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@80.187.108.84] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:09:36 which you can get rid of 22:09:55 sykopomp: nope, not from what I remember 22:09:58 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:11:10 and while i'm at it, other implementations have some nice threads information, like it's sleeping or waiting for input, can sbcl give something like this? 22:11:39 I don't think so, hence I did the thread description thing 22:11:58 but it's a kludge around the real thing, it should go away 22:13:23 sykopomp: it's probably implementation dependent. 22:14:01 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 22:14:06 but I would say you need atleast 500 elements. But it probably also depends on how you use it. 22:14:10 stassats`: I'd really like the slime-open-system, and yes I think it should open all files. 22:14:32 stassats`: there can be a separate slime-browse-system based on dired, too 22:14:32 yeah 22:14:41 and hash tables love them sum memory use :) 22:15:02 knobo: 500? 22:15:16 -!- mnl [n=mnl@217.230.192.84] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:15:16 i guess slime-open-system would be trivial 22:15:29 hmm now I have to test it... 22:15:40 stassats`: Well straight-forward. :) You have to know the relevant asdf bits 22:16:16 stassats`: but not a big thing, hence my request. I really miss it every day I fire up Emacs to work on my sequence-iterators 22:16:52 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60.241.1.206] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 22:17:33 the function should probably ask whether the system should be loaded, too 22:18:20 If you hack it up, I'll blog about it with shiny screenshots and glorifying you! 22:18:21 -!- lispm [n=joswig@g224120125.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:18:24 *stassats`* found his lisp-paste for listing all files in a system 22:19:34 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:20:17 oudeis [n=oudeis@85-250-138-88.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 22:20:50 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:21:13 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:23:27 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-12947.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:24:30 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has joined #lisp 22:25:06 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.174.157] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:25:29 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-235.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:26:37 rpg_ [n=rpg@c-75-73-42-183.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:42 rvirding [n=chatzill@h52n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:26:46 -!- rpg [n=rpg@c-75-73-42-183.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:28:13 knobo pasted "Ok test for alist vs hash?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88950 22:28:32 I don't know if this is a good test or not. 22:29:13 comments? 22:31:01 tcr: do you know any existing elisp command for opening a list of files? 22:31:12 -!- coyo [n=alex@144.162.128.141] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:31:16 knobo: Looks like you can use whichever you like. 22:31:16 seems like a pretty reasonable test to me. (and...yes: hash tables are damn slow). 22:31:18 You can write a much faster hashtable yourself; it won't have to worry about all the crazy requirements CL builtin hashtables have. 22:32:20 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:02 When I did 1000, hash was faster. 22:33:30 and I think lispworks hash-tables are faster then sbcl, which I use now. 22:34:07 stassats`: not really, perhaps a google search through emacswiki will show something 22:34:16 foom: What crazy requirements are those? Not doubting you, just want to know. 22:34:43 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 22:34:50 ok, i got M-x slime-open-system 22:34:52 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-085-111.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:35:00 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:35:10 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 22:35:11 Cool, I'll look at it tomorrow. I'm off now. 22:35:22 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:35:54 doh, god thing i didn't test it on mcclim 22:36:02 s/god/good/ 22:39:06 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:39:32 jcowan: eq hashtables are a pain 22:39:35 -!- mishoo_ [n=mishoo@86-124-79-155.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:39:47 knobo annotated #88950 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88950#1 22:40:59 not surprising speed of arrays 22:41:00 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 22:41:02 -!- dragi [n=user@82.113.121.147] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:41:05 good night 22:41:18 rustywheeler [n=kliese@campsis.eait.uq.edu.au] has joined #lisp 22:41:22 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06d590.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["good fight"] 22:42:27 If I understand correctly, setf will assign everything "in series", so that (setf a 1 b a) will set b to 1? 22:42:29 Sikander, memo from LiamH: fixed bug, see http://paste.lisp.org/display/88866 22:42:37 Woowoo 22:42:51 What I mean is, this it's not implementation dependent? 22:42:52 knobo annotated #88950 "and for arrays" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88950#2 22:43:41 Sikander: correct, that's how it works on all implementations 22:43:41 -!- Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:43:50 see alsoÖ 22:43:54 clhs psetf 22:43:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_setf_.htm 22:44:54 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-109-82.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 22:45:04 right, thanks 22:46:38 hi, "cp" is to cl-fad:copy-file as "mv" is to ? 22:47:05 coyo [n=alex@144.162.128.141] has joined #lisp 22:47:17 cl:rename-file 22:47:18 my first guess would be rename, but i didn't load cl-fad yet 22:48:04 thanks 22:48:46 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-235.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:49:07 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:49:15 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 22:49:23 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:49:34 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:50:24 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 22:50:46 Alabaman_ [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 22:51:14 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:52:29 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.155.177] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:52:44 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483FECB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:55:42 what is that replacement for ASDF that someone here is working on 22:55:50 XCVB 22:56:01 thats it, cheers stassats' 22:56:02 Fare is working on 22:56:24 I should think it would be called GHJK. 22:56:47 there's already POIU 22:57:02 jcowan, you mean JKL: 22:57:36 any other project with such naming scheme? 22:57:50 he should get the cliki entry sorted, i couldn't find it there without the name 22:57:56 Fare: ":" is lower case on your keyboard? 22:58:09 Guthur, cliki is writeable -- please add it where you think it should be 22:58:11 its uncatergorised 22:58:24 jcowan, no but JKL are uppercase 22:58:32 Guthur, what category should it be? 22:58:43 Fare: Yes, but CL is case-insensitive. 22:58:58 fare, will same place as asdf, under the catch all library page 22:59:10 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442868.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:59:10 jcowan, its canonical names are uppercase 22:59:19 Guthur, it's not really a library 22:59:22 xcvb-master is a library 22:59:46 you don't load XCVB into a current image. The whole point of it is that you don't need to. 22:59:55 Fare and my mistake asdf isn't there, just some extra things associated with it 23:00:33 Fare i'll have to have a read over your site to get an idea 23:00:51 it's in Development 23:01:15 -!- rpg_ [n=rpg@c-75-73-42-183.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:01:19 Fare you said it was relatively mature though, right 23:02:09 aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 23:02:33 Fare: on my keyboard that would become JKLÖ 23:04:30 Guthur, what do you think of the current version? 23:05:15 Fare, still reading, i would have to give it a spin first to give it an honest opinion, does seem to bad on first glance though 23:05:22 rvirding, you dirty foreigner! You steal jobs from, uh, nevermind 23:05:41 *rvirding* yes 23:05:49 Fare, i am going to have some ASDF dependencies, is that bad? 23:06:02 No. XCVB can deal with that. 23:06:28 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:06:33 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-64-11.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:06:52 Fare, great i will try to give it a spin tonight, its late though so might not get it ready 23:09:39 -!- rustywheeler [n=kliese@campsis.eait.uq.edu.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:09:59 "ASDF Just Kills Lisp"? 23:11:27 shouldn't that be AJKL Just Kills Lsip? 23:11:50 s/Lsip/Lisp 23:12:28 ... no. 23:13:52 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:07 rvirding: look on your keyboard 23:14:09 nyef: why does it kill lisp? ;P 23:14:26 JKL Kills Lisp - let's be recursive 23:14:31 *Adlai* just looked on his keyboard and realized where "XCVB" comes from 23:14:36 lol 23:15:05 guess we all gotta eat our own medicine sometimes 23:15:06 Fare: I was trying to be but ASDF got its name wrong 23:15:56 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has quit [] 23:17:30 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:17:37 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:18:42 -!- coyo [n=alex@144.162.128.141] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:19:03 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 23:19:55 dsteuber [n=david@c-68-37-230-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:45 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:28:05 Hello. I've been reading the Ars review of Snow Leopard and learned about LLVM. Then I found the CLiki page on it which links to the rather depressing CLVM page. Has anyone seriously considered targeting an LLVM runtime with SBCL or CCL? 23:28:06 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:28:18 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 23:28:33 many people considered it 23:28:38 Or is LLVM really just good enough for C? 23:28:39 I don't think anyone actually tried 23:28:40 And died. 23:28:40 but seriously? 23:28:45 Hey, Fare! 23:28:52 hi, ltns 23:29:02 jcowan, why die? 23:29:10 Fare, still at ITA? 23:29:22 actually, alex friedman once had a LLVM target for PLT 23:29:27 back in the days 23:29:42 Porting SBCL to a new arch is a pain if the code can't be stolen from CMUCL. 23:30:23 Fare: An allusion to the song "16 Tons" 23:30:36 "If you see me coming, better step aside / A lot of men didn't and a lot of men died" 23:30:43 That sucks. Although I remember SBCL doing PowerPC, SPARC, as well as x86, and x86-64. 23:31:07 *stassats`* remembers 16 tons from MPFL 23:31:57 I've been doing Obj-C 2.0 and it feels like machine code next to Lisp. And I was never a power Lisper. 23:32:15 dsteuber: I've unseriously considered it 23:32:24 Just Emacs + SLIME + one of CCL or SBCL 23:32:26 dsteuber, could be your pet project 23:32:35 dsteuber: and I've often considered trying harder to get someone else to start the project. :) 23:32:40 jeti [n=jeti@p548EBEC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:48 dsteuber: because I think it really would be a great win. 23:33:45 Now, I think it's going to be hard... 23:33:57 dsteuber: Slime is enough for power lisping 23:35:33 stassats`: Which MPFL? 23:35:49 monty python's flying circus 23:35:57 Ah. 23:36:11 The first thing I'd consider doing is making a cross-compiler which can output working LLVM code for the interior of a function. 23:38:10 forgetting all the niggling little unimportant details like calling convention, gc interaction, etcetc. :) 23:38:51 I suppose if it was easy, it would be done by now. 23:39:00 maybe it's easier to roll the whole new compiler? 23:39:16 -!- Alabaman_ [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:39:36 I wonder if it would be simpler to go from some machine code to LLVM. 23:39:54 MIPS, maybe, if anyone still has a MIPS native compiler. 23:39:54 Sort of a Ken Thompson approach. 23:40:16 sbcl runs on mips 23:41:02 I don't think that would make much sense. 23:41:04 Then you could take a Lisp image and turn it into LLVM. You would have ported Lisp without having an implementation in source form. Maybe. 23:41:39 Probably not. 23:41:54 I don't think it makes sense either. 23:42:48 Besides, it would be nice to have something that you can bootstrap from a C compiler rather than needing a Lisp already running. GCC does that. But that's sort of cheating when the language is C. 23:43:01 I don't know if that made any sense. 23:43:34 what *I* want out of LLVM is to be able to take advantage of its low-level optimizations. SBCL has good high-level optimizations, and really poor low-level optimizations. 23:44:51 foom, that would be nice. I would like a friendlier FFI so that Lisp can blend in to what is predominantly a C universe. 23:45:19 And, of course, a nice Cocoa bridge. I really need to get the latest CCL. 23:45:51 AFAIK, Cocoa bridge should be nearly trivial to write on top of generic C FFI. 23:46:19 Apple does publish an ABI document for Objective-C. 23:46:49 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:47:12 kerimbasol_ [n=kerim@85.107.137.28] has joined #lisp 23:47:33 Are SBCL callbacks working on Linux now? 23:48:09 Dunno: I was going to try to use one for the first time ever, but then ended up not having to. :) 23:48:25 I guess that's even better. 23:48:32 Carbon is rife with callbacks. 23:48:33 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 23:48:41 CCL had them when I was using it. 23:48:44 hsuh [n=hsuh@c925a62a.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 23:48:50 I haven't had any trouble with SBCL callbacks on win32. 23:49:04 -!- hsuh [n=hsuh@c925a62a.virtua.com.br] has left #lisp 23:49:04 I foolishly through Carbon would continue to be maintained along with Cocoa. 23:49:46 Cool. I heard SBCL was working on Win32. But I don't work on Win32 :-) 23:49:55 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 23:50:00 It's mostly-working on win32. There are still a few problems. 23:50:05 hm, yes. I seem to recall a conversation where I said "Why are you using Carbon, it's going away soon" and you said "no way, everyone uses carbon, there's no way they're removing it" a few years back. :) 23:50:14 Some of them deep problems, some of them fairly shallow. 23:50:26 (Well, relatively shallow.) 23:50:31 Yeah. I sure poured boiling oil all over myself there. 23:50:42 Turns out Apple doesn't give a damn about everyone! 23:50:58 And it wasn't completely wrong either. iTunes is still 32 bit because of Carbon I think. 23:51:15 We knew that Apple didn't give a damn back when they first switched to x86 and the PPC emulator turned out to be junk. 23:51:19 And Adobe is Carbon, along with Final Cut Express... 23:51:26 and Finder in Snow Leopard was completely rewritten in Cocoa. 23:51:28 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 23:51:48 There are only a few processes left in Snow that are only 32 bit. 23:51:49 nyef: well, the PPC emulator worked with *normal* programs. 23:51:51 (Amazing! Finder isn't still running as 68k code?) 23:52:15 Rosette only did G3. Poo! 23:52:19 foom: But not exceptional programs, which is essentially penalizing those doing a good job. 23:52:24 the Finder was brand new (and utter crap) in the first OSX release. 23:52:29 so, no, no 68k code. :) 23:52:37 -!- ruediger_ [n=ruediger@188-23-92-74.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:52:45 Xcode 3.2 is fully Cocoa. I think. 23:53:00 (This being based on the notion that OS9 or at least OS8 Finder still being 68k code running under emulation.) 23:53:01 It's a 32 bit process in Activity Monitor. 23:53:43 yeah, it's a bit amazing to compare the difference between the 68k->PPC and PPC->X86 transitions. 23:53:58 Snow Leopard is the jettisoning of almost all that is PPC. 23:54:18 The first had a basically-perfect emulator, and the transition never really completed until all that code was tossed, with OSX. 23:54:20 If you fire up a PPC process, a translator will be downloaded if you don't have it. 23:54:40 The second had a really crappy emulator, and which Apple has already practically disowned 23:55:08 The funny thing is that Apple bought all those technologies. 23:55:15 Those that weren't FOSS. 23:55:19 disumu [n=disumu@84.188.232.202] has joined #lisp 23:55:42 They just did a better job with pain management than Microsoft did. 23:56:11 -!- demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-222-188.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:56:19 I don't know what they're calling the PPC emulator now. 23:56:25 I read it but forgot. 23:57:27 From what I'm reading in the Ars review, Apple is trying to get more control by going to LLVM with Clang. 23:57:48 No one else seems to use Obj-C so much. 23:58:13 SL devtools ship GCC, GCC/LLVM, and CLANG/LLVM compilers 23:58:33 Why would Apple go from a good emulator to a poor one? I can understand dropping the emulator altogether. 23:58:33 jcowan: one was a 68k emulator 23:58:45 Ah. 23:58:55 jcowan: and it was intricately tied into the OS9 OS 23:58:56 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:58:57 I see, you were talking about transitions, not versions. 23:58:57 The iPhone SDK comes with LLVM in several packages. 23:59:14 Pure generates LLVM rather than interpreting. 23:59:37 I think as soon as LLVM's C++ frontend is completed, Apple is going to drop GCC. 23:59:54 I thought the f-e basically was GCC retargeted.