00:00:12 LiamH annotated #88814 "sizet" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88814#1 00:00:16 -!- phf [n=user@c-98-218-70-50.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:00:57 Sikander, right, it strikes me as odd that GSL has gsl_fft.h and gsl_fft_complex.h, because what other kind of FFT is there? 00:01:12 I see 00:01:25 LiamH: Yes, there's a real fft. 00:01:40 But there are two kinds (at least) of complex numbers, (complex single-float) and (complex double-float), I don't know if GSL supports both. 00:01:46 LiamH: Right about the sizet. I was trying out all sorts of stuff 00:02:07 LiamH: only real doubles and complex doubles 00:02:44 I didn't know there was a real FFT, I always thought they were always complex. But as long as there are >1 kind, yes, this should be a method. But don't worry about that now. 00:02:46 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 00:03:04 -!- drago`` [n=user@82.113.121.150] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:03:15 drago`` [n=user@82.113.121.150] has joined #lisp 00:03:44 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:03:44 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:04:00 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 00:05:16 LiamH: Ok. Just to quickly explain, the real fft is fake. It assumes a 0 imaginary part. 00:05:26 Anyway the symptom you're describing sounds like failure to copy between the C and CL sides (provided you're not on SBCL, which doesn't copy). However, with the :input and :output you've done it right. 00:05:35 Sikander: OK 00:05:43 I'm on sbcl. 00:05:52 So sbcl reads it directly? 00:06:06 Well that's especially odd, because SBCL uses native vectors. 00:06:19 :( 00:06:19 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:06:22 I.e., it doesn't copy between the two sides. 00:06:31 I'll try some more. I'm probably missing something. 00:06:38 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 00:06:45 SBCL can extract a pointer to be passed to C. 00:07:13 sbcl is cool 00:07:44 Yes, but fe[nl]ix's static vectors will spread supersede that and be more portable. 00:07:59 er, "will supersede that" 00:08:04 great, the more portable, the better 00:08:15 but not for a while 00:08:26 which is why I'm happy to be on sbcl 00:08:27 :) 00:09:50 LiamH: "not for a while" ? 00:10:16 fe[nl]ix: my to-do list is already fairly long, but it's in the queue. 00:10:50 higher priority is getting the array utilities in a usable state, because people keep asking for it 00:11:24 or inventing their own 00:12:04 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:56 time to eat, I'll leave IRC going and check it in a while 00:13:58 LiamH: the fft function in C returns an int (a status). Should c-return be defined as something in gsll? 00:14:05 Oh, ok. 00:14:09 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:14:15 Sikander: the default is to check the status 00:14:24 Ok, thanks 00:14:34 bon appetit 00:14:36 Sikander: do a macro expansion of your form, and see that it makes sense. 00:14:50 right, thanks. 00:15:03 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:15:06 Thanks, talk to you later. 00:15:15 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 00:16:47 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:17:39 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:20:31 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:20:41 -!- faux [n=user@82.182.78.98] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:20:54 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 00:23:31 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-104-232.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:27:50 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:29:56 LiamH: ping 00:30:34 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:30:35 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:30:59 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 00:34:48 phao [n=phao@189.13.222.247] has joined #lisp 00:34:57 -!- phao [n=phao@189.13.222.247] has left #lisp 00:35:45 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Operation timed out] 00:36:21 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 00:38:04 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 00:38:49 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:39:04 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 00:43:12 Joreji [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 00:43:30 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E01E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:47:49 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:32 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:51:21 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:51:42 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 00:56:58 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 00:57:46 Guthur pasted "Gets read as (setf last)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88815 00:58:26 this is really confusing me, it warns me that (setf last) is not a function, how does it figure that is even being called 00:58:32 dnm [n=dnm@68.49.47.248] has joined #lisp 00:58:46 clhs last 00:58:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_last.htm 00:58:57 it's not an accessor 00:59:57 so, what do you want to do? replace the last element of a list with something different? 01:00:42 Adlai`` [n=adlai@93-173-249-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 01:00:42 stassats aye, i suppose i need to use something else 01:01:12 (setf (car (last list)) 'something) 01:01:13 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:01:27 ah 01:02:14 (won't work with an empty list) 01:02:33 stassats, cheers, ya its fine its not empty 01:03:17 i think i actually ran into this before, but didn't learn, doh 01:03:30 but the error message was really throwing me 01:03:47 just started with SBCL so new messages 01:03:50 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 01:03:59 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 01:04:09 well, if you know how setf machinery works it makes sense 01:04:24 ya it makes sense i was just being silly 01:07:33 -!- dnm [n=dnm@68.49.47.248] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:07:55 dnm [n=dnm@68.49.47.248] has joined #lisp 01:08:35 -!- Summermute66 [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:11:40 though i don't think the error made much sense 01:11:40 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:11:54 rares [n=rares@130.13.176.255] has joined #lisp 01:11:58 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 01:12:09 -!- rares [n=rares@130.13.176.255] has left #lisp 01:12:47 -!- rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:12:54 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 01:13:35 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 01:15:34 producing straight-forward error messages isn't an easy task 01:15:35 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:16:12 ASau` [n=user@91.76.59.232] has joined #lisp 01:16:59 -!- dnm [n=dnm@68.49.47.248] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:18:16 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:17 stassats: true, but i was less confused when i made the same mistake with clisp, it lets you run the code but of course sets nothing 01:19:02 suppose it took the same amount of time to sort out, i must learn this lesson, not nice to make the same mistake twice 01:20:02 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:20:25 though to be totally fair as a whole i do much prefer the messages with SBCL 01:20:33 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.160.122] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:20:54 Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:00 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.160.122] has joined #lisp 01:21:02 -!- Dawgmatix 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peer)] 01:39:43 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:32 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 01:42:31 fe[nl]ix: I'm back 01:42:31 LiamH, memo from fe[nl]ix: http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=projects/iolib/static-vectors.git 01:42:38 omerta [n=glgomert@201.243.137.4] has joined #lisp 01:45:10 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:45:23 oudeis [n=oudeis@79.177.77.150] has joined #lisp 01:47:07 -!- omerta [n=glgomert@201.243.137.4] has quit [Client Quit] 01:47:14 fe[nl]ix: Cool 01:47:54 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 01:49:01 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.216.238] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 01:49:40 kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 01:49:40 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:51:30 -!- Fare 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[n=user@200.92.160.122] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:58:11 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:58:47 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:01:27 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 05:01:33 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.133] has joined #lisp 05:04:42 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:42 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:05:00 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:05:22 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:07:36 -!- xan__ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:10:51 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@167.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 05:10:51 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:11:07 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:11:47 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 05:14:13 nini 05:14:14 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:14:43 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:20:49 coyo: ? 05:21:29 :3 05:21:39 good night 05:21:44 *coyo* cuddles 05:22:00 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:22:08 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 05:22:49 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:25:19 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:26:20 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@121.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:32:58 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:33:25 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:36:08 anyone out there using log5 in a project and have a good strategy for output categories? 05:38:06 minion: asdf-dependancy-grovel? 05:38:06 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:38:07 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``asdf-dependancy-grovel''. 05:38:16 minion: grovel 05:38:18 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``grovel''. 05:38:32 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:39:51 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:40:10 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:40:45 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:40 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:45:17 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:48:12 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:48:24 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:49:22 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 05:49:28 -!- aanand` [n=user@59.164.100.216] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:52:00 who manages boinkor.net? 05:52:01 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:52:30 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:53:09 there's no GPG signature for asdf-dependency-grovel, so you can't get it with asdf-install (or clbuild, for that matter)... 05:53:10 *Adlai* fires up wget 05:57:34 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:58:14 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:04:13 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:04:14 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:04:51 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:06:22 whicked, clisp has ffi access to C _macros_ 06:07:06 but it's not clean or automatic .. hmmm 06:07:22 -!- Nshag [i=user@193.248.206.63] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:07:44 *fusss* remembers hand translating pages of curses macros after he has already written several tens of function ffis for cmucl 06:08:22 How do I use asdf-dependency-grovel? 06:08:23 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:09:07 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:13:07 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:13:21 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:15:03 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:15:03 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:15:13 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 06:16:28 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@125.236.55.43] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:17:27 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:17:37 -!- kupad_ [n=kupad@209-166-22-96.client.dsl.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:22:54 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 06:22:58 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:23:51 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 06:24:11 antifuchs: herep 06:25:35 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:26:51 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:27:02 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:30:33 majhool [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 06:30:39 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:33:14 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:35:41 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:36:20 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:37:08 Good morning! 06:37:53 How do I use asdf-dependency-grovel? 06:38:26 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:39:15 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 06:40:32 minion: memo for antifuchs: How do I use your asdf-dependency-grovel? 06:40:33 Remembered. I'll tell antifuchs when he/she/it next speaks. 06:40:58 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:42:51 td123 [n=tom@c-98-212-195-120.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:42:51 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:43:06 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:43:12 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.180.3] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:44:43 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:44:56 is there an actual lisp language or when someone says lisp, they refer to common lisp/scheme? 06:45:11 td123: It is nown as Common Lisp. 06:45:18 *known 06:45:42 Lisp refers to either a family of related languages or its currently most sold-out member, CL 06:46:20 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:46:21 ty 06:46:29 ywlcm 06:47:28 td123: Why did you ask? 06:48:12 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-104-232.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:48:50 -!- spec`afk is now known as mrSpec 06:49:01 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:49:28 Jafet: sold out? 06:51:49 beach: I was always confused 06:55:22 gotta sleep 06:55:24 -!- td123 [n=tom@c-98-212-195-120.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #lisp 06:56:33 what's the best documentation system out there for cl? I have written a bunch of libraries that have a fair amount of docstrings but I have never generated any documentation... for shame 07:03:44 I would be suspicious of any documentation system that is based on docstrings. 07:04:38 gonzo - latex; texinfo. 07:05:10 beach: But one capable of pulling data from docstrings for extra information wouldn't hurt :) 07:05:34 p_l: I'm not sure. 07:05:35 beach: i agree. i think it would be nice to have a hybrid system that doesn't ignore docstrings but also requires additional work 07:06:11 *p_l* is kinda interested in literate programming 07:06:29 It is good to have documentation close to the entity being documented, but in source code, docstings are mostly noise, because they don't concern the person reading the code. 07:07:02 they're quite useful when your function is doing some consing magic, to explain the intent 07:07:23 Phoodus: No, that's when you use comments and not docstrings. 07:07:27 but still, I generally write comments instead of docstrings 07:07:36 :) 07:07:48 ayrnieu: do you know of anything to supplement working with pure texinfo for documenting lisp code? It seems like some projects use texinfo but they /must/ be generating some if it from code signatures 07:08:09 beach: you have a differentiation in policy for what goes in comments and what goes into docstrings? 07:08:09 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:08:19 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 07:08:19 Phoodus: Oh yes. 07:08:22 -!- _8david [n=user@pD9540430.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:08:47 Comments and docstrings serve quite different purposes. A docstring is intended for a client that is not going to read the code, whereas a comment is meant for the maintainer. 07:09:10 well, then intent in usage would definitely go into docstrings then 07:09:39 since we don't have any tools that read from docstrings, we just do everything in comments, though 07:10:14 Phoodus: Such tools exist. 07:10:41 clhs documentation 07:10:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm 07:10:46 I'm sure they do. We're probably going to go to a knowledge base before we seek out something like thatt hough 07:12:29 I have two problems with docstrings though. 1. They create noise for the maintainer. 2. They are attached to program entities, and good documentation requires other things as well such as terminology, intent, use cases, etc. 07:12:36 Edi Weitz's libraries have pretty good documentation. it seems like those are generated from the docstrings initially and then edited by hand. 07:12:54 how are they noise whereas comments are not? 07:13:12 and #2 is a duplication/reference problem that is really hard to get away from no matter what you do :-/ 07:13:27 Phoodus: Because they are not intended for the person reading the code. The person reading the code in order to maintain it usually already know how to use it. 07:13:29 Phoodus - [...] A docstring is intended for a client that is not going to read the code, whereas a comment is meant for the maintainer. 07:14:15 the maintainer should be well aware of the user-perspective contract of the code, to make sure it stays in line with its intent, or update the public doc if there are significant changes 07:14:22 Phoodus: No, #2 is a problem because there is no place to attach such documentation, so it usually doesn't get written if you use docstring-based documentation. 07:14:54 beach: I agree on #2. You have multiple places to edit, and make references across docs which must be maintained 07:15:10 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.54.192] has joined #lisp 07:15:25 maybe a good way to deal with #2 is to have some external documentation files that can #include the docstrings for particular functions, along with examples, use cases, version history, etc. 07:16:00 the problems with #2 is why we're looking more along the lines of knowledge bases which can keep references between code, docs, indexes, glossaries, etc 07:16:22 I don't think any inline text file metaphor will really solve those issues 07:16:26 gonzojive: Yeah, something like that. 07:16:32 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 07:16:37 Joreji [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:17:50 I have been thinking about some integreated documentation system that allows you to attach references to code, and that allows a person that maintains the code to pull up the corresponding documentation. 07:18:02 But it is very vague at the moment. 07:18:33 Another problem that I have is that I would like documentation for things other than code, such as a specification. 07:18:55 beach: as for (1), I think a big factor for defun docstrings is that they come in between the lambda list and the function body, so if you make the documentation too long you might have to scroll to remember what your arguments are. Java's docstrings are not as noisy imo 07:19:05 StumpWM has a system where there's a manual written in Texinfo, and it's pre-processed to pull in docstrings. 07:19:31 gonzojive: Sure they are. They prevent the maintainer from seeing more code. 07:19:57 gonzojive: I agree about defun docstrings... It'd be nicer if they came before or after the function. 07:20:29 beach: Java is so verbose you can only see the current function anyway ;) 07:20:30 gonzojive: And you can do that in CL too, by using (setf documentation). 07:20:35 g'day 07:20:37 beach: that's true 07:20:39 hello schme 07:20:43 \o/ 07:20:43 hey schme 07:21:24 beach: that's actually not a bad idea: having a documentation.lisp file, which had just one giant form: (setf (documentation 'foo 'bar) "baz" (documentation 'quux ...) ...) 07:22:14 it could be a slight nuisance to update big changes in two places, but it'd be much nicer for reading the code 07:22:19 (You can generate it from your latex or texinfo documentation, for the people who don't need to read your code.) 07:22:19 Adlai: there is an advantage to documentation with high proximity to the thing being documented, though 07:22:21 *Adlai* doesn't like reading docstrings either 07:22:30 I dunno, I like having docs right at the code. 07:22:44 Ralith: Why is that? 07:23:04 gonzojive: as long as I can look it up easily (a quick keychord in SLIME, for example), I don't mind. 07:23:12 beach: convenient, easy to update, easy to find. 07:23:41 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:23:55 Ralith: it is a nuisance though that documentation separates the arglist from the funciton. 07:24:03 Adlai: well, I am thinking of when you modify a function's interface. I would more easily forget to update the documentation if it weren't staring me in the face. 07:24:30 too bad? 07:25:04 Adlai: minor; doesn't good design dictate that individual functions should have sufficiently straightforward functionality as to be easily documented? 07:25:15 Adlai: And then there is a question of whether to use some markup in the docstring. I would much rather have documentation be defined as a graph in terms of CLOS objects, than to have to decide on a particular markup language. 07:25:20 -!- FullMetalHarlot is now known as KatrinaTheLamia 07:26:31 Ralith: I'm not sure what "good design" dictates about this, I haven't thought about it much. 07:26:48 Ralith: Again, don't confuse documentation and comments. For documentation, you only want to document externally accessible protocols. 07:27:20 I disagree, btw, that the maintainer does not have a need for docstrings. 07:27:32 Adlai: I don't quite like tho documentation.lisp thing. I like documentation with the definition. Seems easy enough to find it in SLIME anyway (: 07:27:34 deepfire: I'm listening. 07:27:39 beach: yeah, markup in documentation is annoying. StumpWM's functions are all documented with Texinfo markup... 07:27:59 schme: it interrupts the code, though. 07:28:13 beach, it all really depends on one's mind -- mine is very lossy, and I write my docstrings in a big part for myself as well. 07:28:41 deepfire: I use comments for that. 07:28:42 Adlai: Hmm.. I've never quite found that disturbing. 07:28:59 I guess people read code in different ways (: 07:29:04 beach, no, I mean -- I need the user-level documentation as well as comments. 07:29:21 schme: maybe it's just that one of the docstrings that *somebody* put somewhere is half a screen long... :( 07:29:45 deepfire: Sure, that can happen. But what I often want as well is the specification, which is not attached to any code at all. 07:29:54 beach, there is another aspect -- I often reassess whether the function's contract is still reasonable. 07:30:04 beach: hm, good point 07:30:48 beach, and for that I need the contract ready for observation.. 07:30:50 Adlai: Get a bigger screen ;) 07:30:52 deepfire: For instance, I read some McCLIM code, let's say a class. It has (say) rectangle as a superclass. I can see that, but is it OK according to the spec. 07:32:34 beach, I might change my mind about form, when I see an alternative, sure :-) 07:32:53 beach, having something more structured and formal would be very nice indeed. 07:33:03 beach, but for the time being, I want my docstrings :-) 07:33:21 deepfire: right, I don't have the right answer. I just know I am not satisfied with the current situation. 07:34:12 On a different topic, what do people think of defmethod without an associated defgeneric? 07:34:27 specifically -- should it signal a style warning? 07:34:38 I /remember/ that it has non-trivial issues. 07:34:42 seems like it should to me. 07:34:46 er, seem to remember 07:34:48 given that generics are global 07:35:07 it's easy to forget that if you're only defining the specialized methods 07:35:11 It's correct code, though. The spec says that the generic will be created automatically. 07:35:35 Adlai: I think it should give a style warning. 07:35:42 I don't mind it at all. 07:35:55 Thank you for participating in this poll! 07:37:02 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1ACC.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:37:06 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.133] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:37:11 Adlai: You need the defgeneric in order to write the docstring :) 07:37:32 gonzojive pasted "documentation macros?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88819 07:37:44 beach: Can you not setf it? 07:37:47 beach: no, because you can setf it in documentation.lisp! 07:38:06 schme: Sure, I was joking. 07:38:08 But yeah. In most cases I'd like a defgeneric with the docstring right there. (: 07:38:20 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-15-109.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:38:25 beach: Oh :) I've only been awake for an hour. I don't get humor :) 07:39:00 :) 07:39:21 I hope this docemuntation.lisp does not catch on :( 07:39:58 Maybe if the docstring was "collapsed" while browsing the code. 07:40:29 schme: that's probably the correct solution. Slime folks, we have a feature! 07:41:16 I'm wondering if it is easy in SLIME.. it's very emacsy. If the environment understood all dem objects behind the scene it seems easier (: 07:41:52 oh well (: 07:43:50 http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/doclands.png 07:44:17 (just as an element in the discussion) 07:44:19 the main way i figure out code without some html/pdf documentation is with M-. in SLIME 07:45:50 gonzojive: "figure out code" = what it does, or how to use it in your project? 07:45:56 s/what it does/how it works/ 07:46:00 beach: (: 07:49:10 morphling [n=stefan@89.14.130.33] has joined #lisp 07:49:58 Adlai: both 07:50:22 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp158.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:50:39 for figuring out how to use code, examples are the most helpful but are rarely included in docstrings 07:51:05 That's another good point. Where do examples belong? 07:52:10 There are just too many elements of good documentation that have no program entity to be attached to, and the result is bad documentation. 07:53:26 beach: right now they are often included in an "examples.lisp" file, or the author will point the user to the unit tests code, but neither of these is a great solution. I would prefer examples that have REPL output interspersed with comments from the author 07:54:02 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-1-244.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:54:16 beach: source in src/, documentation in doc/, examples in examples/, ... 07:55:33 *deepfire* discovers http://www.keyongtech.com/lisp/, a rather nice and clean read-only interface to c.l.l 07:56:21 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.54.192] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:56:27 beach: you could feasibly attach examples to an entity, or to multiple entities. 07:57:05 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.54.192] has joined #lisp 07:57:11 benny [n=benny@i577A1ACC.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:58:27 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-153.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:01:26 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 08:01:26 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:06:56 deepfire, nice, although it'd be nice if one could view things fixed-font. 08:17:07 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@79.177.77.150] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:17:10 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60.241.1.206] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:23:02 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229240048.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:23:33 tic, yeah.. 08:29:23 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@167.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:29:49 jmbr [n=jmbr@97.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 08:30:05 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:30:44 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:30:55 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 08:31:26 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:31:26 <_3b> heh, thats the 2nd of those cll-as-forum things i've seen 08:32:34 OT: say what you will about w_a_x_man, but he at least forces people to code instead of gossiping :-) 08:39:57 who's that? 08:41:12 redblue [i=star@ppp055.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 08:41:16 resident cll troll 08:41:26 Ah. 08:41:49 whoa. This forum seems to have filtered out Xah Lee 08:41:56 fantastic. 08:42:01 sykopomp: he doesn't post 24/7, you know 08:42:07 only when the muse strikes. 08:42:10 Adlai: he doesn't? 08:42:14 nope 08:42:28 oh there he is 08:42:30 unlike Dave Searles aka Tetrahedral Quartz aka Seamus Macrae 08:42:48 I wouldn't be surprised if that is just one person who really hates Emacs 08:42:59 ok, now #lisp is gossiping. back to code! 08:43:13 minion: chant 08:43:14 MORE STRUCTURED 08:44:02 oudeis [n=oudeis@89.138.162.45] has joined #lisp 08:46:40 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:46:41 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:51:08 francogrex [n=user@198.54-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 08:52:52 Is there a better way to do this: (parse-integer (string #\1)) ? 08:53:27 <_3b> clhs digit-char-p 08:53:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_digi_1.htm 08:53:36 <_3b> francogrex: ^ 08:53:37 this is interesting: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1583597/asm-c-python-perl-lisp-scheme-programmer-looking-for-something-new-to-l 08:53:47 I can hardly imagine that guy really knows common lisp 08:54:25 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:54:31 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 08:54:38 _3b: great 08:55:57 lpolzer_: I first thought that post was written by GvR 08:56:11 tcr, haha 08:56:35 _3b: how do you know all this. I have the hypersepcs but they are command -> definitions. Whereas most of the time what is needed is definition -> command; something like a reverse dictionary where you say what you need and it gives you the command 08:56:50 learning 08:56:57 reading, and learning 08:57:05 something like: http://www.onelook.com/reverse-dictionary.shtml 08:57:05 and apropos 08:57:08 and practice 08:57:26 (apropos 'char 'cl) 08:57:32 you have the hyperspec. Have you read it, cover to cover? 08:58:15 francogrex: Browse through the index, and look at each symbol's description once; read until you understand, try examples, think of opportunities you could make use of the symbol 08:58:16 Krystof: I have some time ago but can one memorize it from cover to cover word by word 08:58:17 <_3b> francogrex: that one is a common example of CL 'generalized boolean' being useful for more than just true/false 08:58:49 <_3b> francogrex: so a few years of reading #lisp and you see it a few times :) 08:58:54 francogrex: no, one can't without a lot of effort. How is that relevant? 08:59:04 did I suggest that you should memorize it word by word? 08:59:10 howdy Krystof. Do you have a small example use case for sb-sequences? 08:59:15 tcr: as it happens, yes 08:59:32 Can I borrow it, both for testing as well as presentation purposes? 08:59:34 tcr: I have a paper print of the specs I read 09:00:15 tcr: http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/dna.lisp # not for too wide distribution yet, it's part of a paper I have to finish by tomorrow 09:00:24 space-efficient representation of dna base-pair sequences 09:00:51 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:00:51 exercise for the reader: implement a mmap()ed-file version 09:01:39 Krystof: Thank you. 09:02:02 Krystof: This also demonstrates a missing generic function from your protocol, I think: sequence-element-type 09:02:21 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 09:02:29 Krystof: hmm, you use define-symbol-macro a bit like #DEFINE 09:03:01 Krystof: I wanted to write a mail about it, and I'll probably still do it. 09:03:31 mm, I saw in the logs your discussion 09:03:36 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:03:43 do you really need it? 09:04:27 Yeah think of randomized testing 09:05:59 For example for testing make-sequence-like + :initial-element 09:06:25 you have to know what kind of datum you may store in the sequence 09:09:02 serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06ee2a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:05 good morning 09:14:22 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:15:05 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:17:41 Hun [n=hun@217.86.190.93] has joined #lisp 09:18:38 guten morgen 09:19:24  09:19:29 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:44 p_l:  09:22:38 Davidbrcz [n=david@212.198.78.230] has joined #lisp 09:23:12 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:23:47  09:25:16 sykopomp: kinda, but more of "If I was to rank my language abilities, japanese would be 3rd after english 09:25:29 not that it's much 09:25:39 *p_l* really slipped in his studies 09:25:49 p_l: the case is the same for me :) 09:25:57 it's been too long :\ 09:26:15 xristos: I would reply in greek but I don't have utf-8 input working 09:26:51 angel_ [n=angel@221.217.205.87] has joined #lisp 09:27:23 -!- prxq_ is now known as prxq 09:27:30 (setf (symbol-function 'echo) 09:27:30 (let ((x "x")) 09:27:30 (lambda () (message x)))) 09:27:33 though I wonder if I shouldn't move english to "near native" and rank it together with polish... I know that I have mixed both... 09:27:51 why the emacs print 'the void variable x' 09:28:23 angel_: maybe you should try asking that on #emacs 09:28:26 when i eval '(echo)' ,the error is "void variable x 09:28:50 but i think its simly to lisp 09:29:08 it's specific to elisp 09:30:40 *sykopomp* wonders how elisp's (lack of) lexical scoping actually works. 09:32:02 angel_: Emacs Lisp does not have closures. 09:33:03 -!- francogrex [n=user@198.54-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:33:05 angel_: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Extent.html 09:34:02 angel_: You can use lexical-let rather than let 09:37:46 -!- angel_ [n=angel@221.217.205.87] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:37:58 drago`` [n=user@82.113.106.145] has joined #lisp 09:38:07 Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has joined #lisp 09:44:09 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:27 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:47:38 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 09:49:23 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:49:50 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 09:52:24 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 09:52:46 Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has joined #lisp 09:54:37 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 09:54:41 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:58:26 Krystof: Do you happen to have any idea on my last sbcl-general posting? 10:03:08 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:05:47 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:06:42 Joreji_ [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:07:18 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:07:38 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:46 Hm slime is really better than the lispworks ide in some respects 10:13:02 I like the approach of having the IDE be separate from the lisp (ie, slime + swank) 10:13:10 tcr: and this is sad 10:13:49 -!- giruga12 [n=giruga12@h26n2fls32o895.telia.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 10:14:18 drago`: why? 10:14:45 Foofie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has joined #lisp 10:15:27 -!- kefka [n=user@75.101.205.165] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:16:02 I hoped an commercial IDE would behave different than emacs 10:16:20 but the lispworks editor is more or less like emacs 10:17:00 sure the editor, but the IDE is more than the editor 10:17:34 IDEs of other languages come with really crappy editors 10:17:55 as if cut'n'paste is everything you'd like to do 10:18:50 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:19:01 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:19:09 Other languages have editors with crappy IDEs 10:19:47 nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has joined #lisp 10:19:57 only if you're using a niche language, or a scripting language 10:23:16 hi worlds !! 10:24:19 from a sunny morning 10:25:02 tcr: maybe i have missed something, but where are the advantages of the lispworks ide? 10:26:34 It's nice and coherent, most easily available with the mouse, it can display more than text 10:27:08 probably more but I've never used it except for like 10minutes ago 10:27:49 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 10:30:13 i'd like see something like squeak for smalltalk for lisp 10:30:43 with emacs inside it 10:30:55 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:31:25 squeak? 10:31:40 drago``: smalltalk implementation -- it's a graphical thing. 10:31:46 yes, squeak is a GUI for smalltalk 10:32:19 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483EF3B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:32:25 you can inspect and edit easy all system from it 10:32:25 it's not just a GUI. It's a language derived from smalltalk-80 10:33:22 for example it must have a funtion navigation 10:34:59 squeak is for me the most clear gui for a object oriented lang 10:35:05 Jabberwockey [n=jens@82.113.106.145] has joined #lisp 10:35:52 I would call it just an interactive object system 10:36:07 yes 10:36:41 Joreji [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:36:50 I haven't used it though, because I think kay is a bit nutty 10:37:11 at the end slime with a collection of developer-utils could be more productive i think 10:38:26 is a bit hard for beginers like me 10:39:40 salva: slime can do the same in an non-graphical way so far 10:39:49 also look at genera 10:39:50 yes 10:40:29 i don't really like lispworks ide myself, the editor seems slow and looks arcane and the default configuration is pretty bad 10:40:31 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:40:32 does genera work on an current hardware? 10:40:45 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 10:40:58 in two months with emacs, now i think that the basic programing tutorials, must begin with a lisp tutorial 10:42:03 xristos: that is my point, i was hoping that i didn't have to configure the IDE that much. 10:43:50 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:44:27 but i needed to install lw-add-ons only to see function arguments in the messege line 10:44:54 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177150074.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:44:58 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:14 -!- Joreji_ [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:50:18 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:51:44 -!- ropert [n=user@CPE00222d12ee72-CM00222d12ee6e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:52:59 lispm [n=joswig@g224125021.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:55:20 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:47 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219.89.104.232] has joined #lisp 10:56:03 Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has joined #lisp 11:02:01 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:02:53 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.196.19] has joined #lisp 11:05:12 demmel [n=Adium@ip-109-85-117-186.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 11:05:20 -!- demmel [n=Adium@ip-109-85-117-186.web.vodafone.de] has left #lisp 11:09:01 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:11:10 tcr: any idea why slot-unbound-error is thrown when i try to inspect a class with slime 11:11:45 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-104-232.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:12:25 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:13:28 -!- prxq [n=mommer@g228064048.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:17:43 -!- thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit ["leaving"] 11:18:17 thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 11:19:12 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-123-94.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:21:28 -!- kerimbasol [n=kerim@85.107.146.214] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:22:58 xristos: sure if it does that it's probably a bug 11:23:14 xristos: trying to invoke slot-value without checking slot-boundp 11:23:22 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:23:24 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:23:47 xristos: Try to find the invocation, and provide a patch. I'll happily apply it 11:24:11 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [] 11:24:20 blast_awaycheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:23 (describe (find-class 'class)) does the same thing 11:24:25 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 11:24:29 so it might not be slime specific 11:24:38 -!- blast_awaycheese is now known as blast_hardcheese 11:25:07 bugs, everywhere! 11:30:20 is there somewhere to download the whole com.gigamonkeys.pathnames package, or is it bad form to rip it 11:30:51 doh i see the source code link now 11:30:53 sorry 11:32:20 Guthur: even better, there's a library form of it. 11:32:31 minion: cl-fad? 11:32:31 cl-fad: CL-FAD is a portable pathname library based on code from Peter Seibel's book Practical Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/cl-fad 11:32:54 fried_chicken [n=user@88.238.223.232] has joined #lisp 11:32:57 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:33:08 Joreji [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:33:11 sykopomp, nice, cheers 11:33:52 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.241.209] has joined #lisp 11:33:52 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 11:33:52 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 11:34:29 -!- fried_chicken [n=user@88.238.223.232] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:36:26 kerimbasol [n=kerim@85.107.240.25] has joined #lisp 11:38:22 xian [i=xian@pdpc/supporter/active/xian] has joined #lisp 11:40:12 fried_chicken [n=user@88.238.223.232] has joined #lisp 11:40:27 -!- fried_chicken [n=user@88.238.223.232] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:42:04 fried_chicken [n=user@88.238.223.232] has joined #lisp 11:42:49 tcr: http://paste.lisp.org/display/88825 11:43:01 it seems that it tries to instantiate the class ? 11:43:15 how else is print-object on an instance getting called there 11:44:45 -!- fried_chicken [n=user@88.238.223.232] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:45:09 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.253.14] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:47:43 actually it shouldn't throw error even if it instantiated the class as every slot has :initform nil 11:47:43 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:47:58 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:48:56 inspecting a class will also show methods specializing on the class, and it that may include methods eql-specializing on an instance 11:50:57 galdor_ [n=galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:04 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:53:33 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:53:54 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:44 so it doesn't work with classes that have readers ? 11:58:56 hm? 11:58:56 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:59:07 i'll make a new paste 11:59:12 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:59:14 i think it's in the protoype slot 11:59:33 ah yeah or that 12:00:39 so it breaks because it calls print-object on the prototype instance 12:00:47 which i don't know how it constructs 12:01:37 that's mop magic, not my kind of thing 12:01:37 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:01:48 swathanthran [n=user@117.204.83.87] has joined #lisp 12:01:50 but you're right it's not slime specific 12:01:55 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:03:07 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:03:20 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:07:20 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:07:52 it seems it's an sbcl issue 12:08:10 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:08:58 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:11:10 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust936.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 12:11:27 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 12:11:27 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:11:50 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:16:05 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:17:10 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:17:33 http://paste.lisp.org/display/88827 12:17:41 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:17:45 i'll email it to slime-devel too 12:17:59 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-70-58.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 12:20:19 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:20:46 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:23:42 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:24:03 ASau` [n=user@91.76.59.232] has joined #lisp 12:25:00 -!- ASau` [n=user@91.76.59.232] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:25:11 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:25:49 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89.138.162.45] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:26:39 Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has joined #lisp 12:28:18 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:28:54 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:29:38 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:30:52 -!- swathanthran is now known as lefty` 12:31:11 -!- lefty` is now known as swathanthran 12:31:35 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:31:59 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:33:56 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:34:17 ASau` [n=user@91.76.59.232] has joined #lisp 12:36:25 -!- ASau` [n=user@91.76.59.232] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:37:06 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:39:41 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:40:05 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:41:20 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 12:42:17 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:42:29 -!- male_terran [n=terran@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:44:20 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:44:21 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:44:45 waterpie [n=waterpie@athedsl-322866.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 12:44:52 hi all 12:44:56 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:45:00 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:45:00 hi 12:45:44 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-241-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:23 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:46:39 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:46:54 anyone knows about lispbuilder-sdl-ttf why get-font-size doesn't work (except for the lispbuilder default font)? 12:47:36 newdivide [n=user@88.238.223.232] has joined #lisp 12:48:23 -!- newdivide [n=user@88.238.223.232] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:51:32 Foofie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has joined #lisp 12:51:32 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:51:46 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:52:01 milanj [n=milan@77.46.169.204] has joined #lisp 12:52:51 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:53:33 oudeis [n=oudeis@93-172-65-153.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 12:54:44 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:55:21 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:56:42 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:56:55 Reav [n=Sarge@41.221.87.249] has joined #lisp 12:57:49 kupad_ [n=kupad@209-166-22-96.client.dsl.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:22 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:03:58 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:07:11 foobar_ [i=d9802b93@gateway/web/freenode/x-ekurnokdfrsmgkus] has joined #lisp 13:07:21 -!- foobar_ [i=d9802b93@gateway/web/freenode/x-ekurnokdfrsmgkus] has quit [Client Quit] 13:08:45 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:08:46 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:08:55 -!- kpreid__ is now known as kpreid 13:09:09 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:09:14 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:10:23 Mwahaha. Macros are just fucking great! 13:10:57 minion: tell tcr about lisppaste, because sharing is caring. 13:10:57 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:10:58 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 13:11:17 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:11:41 tcr pasted "macros and domain specific testing" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88832 13:13:00 tcr: I had something worse than that in the test suite, but it crashed Python on machines with little (~128 MB) RAM ;) 13:13:00 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:13:12 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:13:29 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:13:30 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:35 tcr: hah, great. 13:13:42 Sheeple has some 13:14:01 It's just great. And the really cool thing is I can plug in randomized testing without problem. Just producing randomized values for *sequence* 13:14:04 Sheeple has some macros in the tests for reply (like messages) dispatch, that are a bit like that 13:14:13 s/messages/methods/ 13:14:28 -!- prip [n=_prip@host61-121-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:14:58 pkhuong: I was thinking of your blog posting about domain specific pattern matchers. 13:14:58 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:15:07 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 13:15:22 pkhuong: The same is true for test frameworks. I always start with rt.lisp and customize it to my domain. 13:15:34 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:16:06 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:17:03 billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:14 Reav1 [n=Sarge@41.221.87.249] has joined #lisp 13:18:14 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:18:34 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:19:48 pkhuong: Could I ask you to take a look at my yesterday's posting to sbcl-general? 13:19:52 prip [n=_prip@host61-121-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:20:39 I did. Nothing obvious to me. 13:20:39 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:20:39 hjpark [n=user@jaram.hanyang.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 13:20:40 tcr: you use gmane ? 13:21:00 fe[nl]ix: Yeah 13:21:10 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:21:11 pkhuong: Can you reproduce it at least? 13:21:59 -!- billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:25:31 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 13:25:31 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:25:36 yes 13:25:51 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:26:42 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.196.19] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 13:28:00 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:28:07 haha: failed AVER: (EQ PHYSENV (LAMBDA-PHYSENV #)) 13:28:27 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219.89.104.232] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:29:17 in sb-c::find-in-physenv 13:29:20 I know this! (it ain't Unix, though) 13:29:20 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:29:57 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:30:12 There's another bug with a similar symptom in the DB. I don't know if anyone has a good idea of what goes wrong and how to fix it yet. 13:31:11 well I can reproduce it :) 13:31:36 let me macroexpand my stuff for you 13:32:26 bye all 13:32:27 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:32:33 -!- waterpie [n=waterpie@athedsl-322866.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:33:18 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 13:34:53 I'll post it to the mailing list 13:35:06 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:36:18 ASau`: fix your connection 13:37:33 -!- Reav [n=Sarge@41.221.87.249] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:37:33 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:38:12 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:39:07 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 13:43:31 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 13:43:32 -!- ASau` 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[n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:54:50 spilman_ [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-52-218.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:55:17 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:55:28 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:58:30 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:59:25 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:59:32 sb-pcl::compute-effective-slot-definition-initargs seems very useful .. wonder why its not part of the MOP in general .. i can't seem to find a "sane" way to move the local or direct-slot information (initargs etc.) to the code which computes the effective-slot stuff (compute-effective-slot-definition / effective-slot-definition-class) 13:59:48 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-143-15.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:00:39 ..postmodern uses a special variable hack, but that means subclassing the metaclass and/or the slot classes is almost impossible 14:01:04 oh, and it is not part of closer-mop, either 14:01:05 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:01:31 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:02:02 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@93-172-65-153.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:02:20 ejs [n=eugen@95.135.25.198] has joined #lisp 14:02:41 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:02:43 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 14:03:35 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp055.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:04:14 -!- kupad_ [n=kupad@209-166-22-96.client.dsl.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:04:14 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:04:16 -!- Reav1 [n=Sarge@41.221.87.249] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:04:37 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:05:50 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:06:06 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-123-94.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:07:50 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:08:14 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:08:24 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:57 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:10:19 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:11:18 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1ACC.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:12:38 LiamH 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joined #lisp 14:23:09 oudeis [n=oudeis@79.177.77.150] has joined #lisp 14:26:44 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:26:58 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.180.3] has joined #lisp 14:27:05 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 14:27:05 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:27:12 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.160.122] has joined #lisp 14:29:01 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:29:06 male_terran [n=terran@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:15 ASau` [n=user@91.76.59.232] has joined #lisp 14:30:14 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242356947.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:30:53 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust936.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:35:20 -!- ASau` [n=user@91.76.59.232] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:35:31 Is there any way to avoid having to write C code when implementing a callbakc in CFFI? 14:36:11 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:36:27 *LiamH* can't think of a case where you would write C for a callback 14:37:34 LiamH: I should have been more specific: When the C code doesn't use a function pointer to make the function call (i.e. is not really a callback at all). 14:37:47 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 14:38:22 In other words, if I have a C function that calls foo(), is there any way to make the implementation of foo purely in lisp? 14:38:37 quidnunc: oh, well I'm not familiar with that situation 14:38:52 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 14:39:04 Hello Sikander 14:39:12 Hi 14:39:12 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:39:44 quidnunc: probably, via the dynamic linker, but a tiny stub in C will be much simpler. 14:39:53 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:40:19 I haven't worked on it that long yet, but the fft thing in gsll has me stumped 14:40:20 pkhuong: Can you elaborate on how it would be done via the dynamic linker? 14:40:42 Sikander: what's stumping you? 14:40:44 haha- [n=haha-@121-80-138-101.eonet.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:41:07 pkhuong: My problem is that I have many such callbacks. I don't want to manually write a stub for each. 14:41:15 Is there a way to generate C code using lisp? 14:41:15 Sikander: the lack of change in the values? 14:41:15 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:41:20 LiamH: Not getting the desired result. 14:41:25 LiamH: Yeah. 14:41:49 Can you post or send what you have? I'll take a look at it. 14:41:50 Jabberwock [n=jens@82.113.121.155] has joined #lisp 14:41:51 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:41:57 -!- Jabberwock [n=jens@82.113.121.155] has quit [Client Quit] 14:42:12 Jabberwock [n=jens@82.113.121.155] has joined #lisp 14:42:57 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-153.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:42:58 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:43:05 LiamH: I'd like to fiddle around a bit more. 14:43:26 Sikander: sure 14:43:35 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 14:44:09 LiamH: I'm sure you can get it to work without a problem, but this gives me the chance to also understand gsll sources better. 14:44:10 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:45:36 Sikander: I'm not sure I can, but I might be able to. The fact that it runs without getting an error is encouraging; a common experience on the first cut is that it crashes or gets an unhandled memory fault. 14:46:13 -!- ejs [n=eugen@95.135.25.198] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:47:04 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@82.113.106.145] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:47:27 LiamH: This is why it's so frustrating. On first try, it went without error, but also without changing values. I haven't progressed since the first try! 14:47:33 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:47:54 LiamH: But as I said, I want to understand what's going on, so I'll just be digging around. 14:49:45 LiamH: By the way, I've been looking around for the fftw3 cl bindings, since you mentioned that compatibility would be nice. Would you just prefer the same interface, or also that gsll uses fftw3 if it is available? 14:49:46 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:50:02 Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has joined #lisp 14:50:08 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:52:18 Sikander: I'd give the users a choice, but make the interface as compatible as possible. As a side point, I'm kind of struggling with policy. My intent was that GSLL more or less strictly interface with GSL, anything else would go in another (compatible) package. 14:52:22 Automatically write C from Lisp? Easy enough, there are several examples out there. Your basic weapon for simple stubs is FORMAT. 14:53:43 nyef: I seem to remember a lisp library that was supposed to do it (or maybe an unfinished project). I can't find it on cliki though. 14:53:43 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:54:09 Sikander: I even have been thinking about this issue in the context of the array utilities, since they strictly speaking don't call GSL functions. But they don't call another library either, and they're needed to generate the linear algebra examples. 14:54:17 For general C? There's been a couple, I think. One of them changed names at some point... I think one was by chandler, but am not certain. 14:55:07 nyef: Yeah for general C. Is there a reason I shouldn't be using those? Do you remember any names? 14:55:23 Sikander: I think I'm going to have to learn how to use subprojects in git in order to break out separate projects. 14:55:28 LiamH: Sure, that makes sense. The idea would be to make gsl bindings that make sense within gsll, with an extra possibility of using a compatible interface, but not provide ffi bindings to fftw3. The reason I asked was because I don't feel the need now to add those 14:55:45 Why would you need general C when your use-case is callback thunks? 14:56:03 Sikander: Indeed, no problem! Just musing about long-term issues here. 14:56:40 LiamH: Yeah, I think it would be nice if gsll is a core and stand-alone project, and that there is another project that wraps gsll but provides all sorts of nice utilities that make for a nice environment (also for interactive use) 14:56:45 nyef: You mean because it is so simple? 14:57:24 LiamH: Well, not wraps, but exposes the functionality and adds utillities 14:57:32 Yeah, you basically want to spit out a function pointer taking given arg types and returning a given arg type and a function with a particular name which passes all of its args to a call through the pointer and returns the result. 14:57:58 Sikander: I foresee (hope for?) a suite of compatible science/engineering numerics packages, and I occasionally think of the structural issues related to putting that together. But of course the detail work of writing the code is a lot more time consuming. 14:58:13 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.173] has joined #lisp 14:58:28 And that's all you really need for the callback thunks. Just take a pointer to the lisp-side callback and stuff it in the pointer for the thunk. 14:58:32 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:58:38 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 14:58:41 nyef: I guess I have just developed an aversion to writing code in a string. 14:59:02 nyef: But I guess I will do that. 14:59:27 If you need something more complex, -then- consider a more structured representation. 14:59:59 nyef: I would still find the names of the C code generators useful for future reference if you can recall them. 15:00:13 LiamH: well, when you pointed out gsll to me, I thought I'd write my own environment with utils etc around that, based on functionality I need at that time. Obviously, it would be better to make this a larger suite that is consistent and compatible with other packages. 15:00:17 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:00:18 jgracin [n=jgracin@vipnet18-82.mobile.carnet.hr] has joined #lisp 15:00:22 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@79.177.77.150] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:01:05 Sikander: so there are potentially some definitions that say fftw3 bindings would need that is already in GSLL (like defmfun). That would need to be split out *eventually*. But of course no need to worry about that now! 15:01:57 Sikander: I think the utils you will probably want to write are the utils that many others would like to have to, so that would be good to go in GSLL or a companion project. 15:01:57 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-59-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:02:03 LiamH: Also, please know that while I'm actively using lisp and have read acl and pcl, I'm still a n00b in many respects. So there's no fear of me doing all these type of things! I just want to contribute missing gsl features 15:02:27 quidnunc: Unfortunately, the one that comes to mind is something on the order of "scexp", with a low confidence because it's essentially nonsense and thus easily mis-remembered. 15:02:36 Well no fear of me doing these things ahead of time... 15:02:43 Or maybe sexpr-c, which is easier to remember, but may not be correct. 15:02:47 Sikander: Fear of doing what? Writing CL for others to use? I have no such fear! 15:02:54 heheh 15:03:03 nyef: scexp is a hit on cliki 15:03:06 Anticipation maybe 15:03:40 nyef: Thanks that's the one I was remembering 15:03:49 Sikander: Anything you'd like to write would be welcome, don't worry if it's not perfect. 15:04:41 LiamH: Great. At this moment, I'm just copying your style from the other gsll parts. 15:04:47 _YKY_ [i=YKY@n11211849130.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 15:05:04 Sikander: How it's incorporated may require some thought, but just getting stuff out there is helpful. If nothing else, it gets people thinking. 15:05:10 -!- _YKY_ [i=YKY@n11211849130.netvigator.com] has left #lisp 15:05:54 LiamH: Sounds good 15:06:00 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-109-137-43.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:25 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:06:32 Sikander: As a point of reference, I had broken simulated annealing code in GSLL for quite a while before I came up with FSBV. It didn't bother me, because it wasn't loaded by the ASDF file and I didn't advertise that GSLL supported simulated annealing then. 15:07:23 meh, just wasted a perfect evening solving Python Challenge until I got to the point of using pickle. 15:07:36 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 15:07:39 if anybody wants to help me with python/pickle, please msg :-) 15:07:58 fusss: the only challenge about Python is doing anything properly 15:08:27 Sikander: Anyway, I will look at numpy today, as I continue to work on the array utilities. 15:09:30 There is also this C code generator I found if anyone is interested: http://super.para.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~tasuku/sc/index.html 15:09:49 LiamH: I understand what you mean. When it's broken, but at least it's there, others might fix it :) 15:10:15 LiamH: Regarding numpy, I meant more the features and/or interface, not necessarily internals, if you know what I mean. 15:10:59 Sikander: Absolutely, that's what I understood you to mean. 15:11:52 LiamH: For the functions, see http://www.scipy.org/Numpy_Functions_by_Category 15:12:05 LiamH: That gives a good idea of the type of things you can do with numpy 15:13:08 Sikander: Thanks. 15:14:45 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:15:33 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@vipnet18-82.mobile.carnet.hr] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:17:06 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@97.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:17:13 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 15:18:44 -!- plan9 [n=stian@arachnotron.sletner.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:18:51 -!- haha- [n=haha-@121-80-138-101.eonet.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:18:52 -!- mnl_ [n=mnl@pD9E6F01A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:19:48 divisionby0 [n=division@88.238.223.232] has joined #lisp 15:20:59 ccl's disassembler is very nice 15:21:10 http://paste.lisp.org/+1WJQ 15:21:41 when i ./clbuild build sbcl this error showed up while building 15:21:47 divisionby0: What OS are you using 15:22:00 divisionby0: You need to install compiler + utilities 15:22:16 debian lenny 5.01 15:22:33 divisionby0: I think build-essential is sufficient 15:23:02 -!- swathanthran [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:23:26 divisionby0: But gcc, binutils in any case. Maybe others. 15:24:14 libc-dev 15:24:16 quidnunc: i'm sorry, i recently switched to linux, do you mean i should apt-get install build-essential? 15:24:22 divisionby0: Yes 15:24:32 mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6F01A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:46 divisionby0: build-essential is for building Debian packages though. I hope it includes gcc but I'm not certain. If not, just apt-get gcc and whatever packages gcc suggests/recommends 15:26:22 quidnunc: ok, i installed it, now i'm trying again, i think i've seen gcc among the list of libs downloaded 15:27:11 divisionby0: By the way, the error you saw was "cc: Command not found". That means it couldn't find a c compiler. 15:28:50 quidnunc: i see, i guessed some libs were missing but i wasn't able to understand which, this is going a bit offtopic but, does build-essential install nearly everything needed to build programs from source. 15:29:15 divisionby0: If it is too much you can remove it and install only gcc and libc-dev 15:29:26 divisionby0: That should be enough. 15:29:38 quidnunc: i see, thanks 15:30:34 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:38 -!- divisionby0 [n=division@88.238.223.232] has left #lisp 15:30:42 bah my sequence-iterators are really slow on ccl 15:34:45 LiamH: by the way, since the arrays/vectors are not garbage collected, how does one go about freeing them in gsll? 15:35:18 Sikander: They are gc'ed. 15:36:05 LiamH: Oh, they are? Wait, I'm probably mixing things up now. What's the whole idea then with static vectors? 15:36:20 ejs [n=eugen@95.135.25.198] has joined #lisp 15:36:47 Sikander: Search for tg:finalize, those are the hooks in to the GC to free the foreign data. 15:37:18 The static vectors (I hope) are to avoid the need to copy arrays between the CL side and the C side. 15:37:27 Ah, ok 15:38:21 So in fact on SBCL which does this already (using vector-sap, not static arrays), the GC will of course clean up the data because it's created on the CL side. 15:38:50 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:39:03 However, all the other GSLL structures/data that you need to make are cleaned up with a tg:finalize buried somewhere in those macros. 15:39:26 Either that or cffi:with-foreign-objects which cleans up on exit, I assume. 15:40:13 -!- mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6F01A.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 15:41:30 Ok, I see now 15:42:42 Sikander 15:42:55 Sikander: I tried to be very careful to clean everything up. 15:43:40 Any foreign data should be freed either in a tg:finalize or exiting the CFFI macro. 15:44:29 LiamH: Yeah, I see. I grepped for tg:finalize. 15:45:00 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:45:53 Sikander: I can't guarantee it; there are a _lot_ of foreign mallocs that go on in GSL. I'm not absolutely sure I got them all. 15:47:08 LiamH: I understand. If I find something, I'll let you know. 15:47:19 LiamH: you can use valgrind maybe ? 15:49:09 SimonH [n=simonh@78.148.105.151] has joined #lisp 15:49:20 xristos: Never tried that, maybe. I'd have to exercise all parts of GSLL, and the tests don't have complete coverage yet. 15:50:18 How do you use valgrind from CL? 15:50:52 you run your program under valgrind ? 15:51:37 xristos: and then drown in the output. Runtime code generation *and* a GCed language... 15:52:26 A simple first step would be to wrap the calls to resource allocation/release to make sure they're paired correctly at points when you know no foreign data should remain live. 15:52:39 pkhuong: you can focus on malloc 15:52:57 not really sure if sbcl uses malloc internally 15:53:21 xristos: rarely. 15:53:32 -!- ejs [n=eugen@95.135.25.198] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:55:37 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@80.187.108.108] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:56:54 pkhuong: wrapping and pairing is what I've tried to do. But there are sneaky mallocs that can creep in because I'm not always aware of where GSL hides a malloc. 15:58:06 LiamH: GSL's interface will malloc behind your back but rely on you to free? That's... an interesting design. 15:58:13 langzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@p57915691.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:23 pkhuong: In a few cases, yes, but more commonly it has a paired set of functions that hide a malloc/free, and it's possible through inattention I missed the pair. A simple scan of my code wouldn't reveal that; I'd have to go back to the GSL docs. I've tried to be careful about that, but no guarantees I got everything. 16:03:00 you can also do it with dtrace 16:03:14 trace malloc/free count calls/sizes 16:06:01 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 16:06:06 pkhuong: The "behind your back" cases occur where there is more than one way to create a certain kind of object, but they use the same freeing routine. It's hard to detect because the secondary ways to create the object are buried in different sections of the manual. 16:06:17 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 16:06:46 -!- teilzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@87.145.95.35] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:07:05 xristos: I imagine that even a small test case would produce a large amount of malloc/free. 16:07:41 divisionby0 [n=division@88.238.223.232] has joined #lisp 16:08:44 you could limit it to gsl calls 16:09:43 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 16:09:44 i tried opening mcclim apps with clbuild, i waited for ages for them to start everytime as if it compiles everything. is there a way to shorten that time 16:09:58 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 16:10:07 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212.198.78.230] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:11:46 xristos: Oh, OK. 16:12:34 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 16:13:48 i'm newbie so i don't really have idea about if it is normal or not, can anybody help? 16:14:48 divisionby0: after the first run, the applications should load from fasls. If that's still too slow, you can save a core 16:14:52 divisionby0: I'm not overly familiar with clbuild, but it may be possible to dump a core with mcclim already loaded and use that instead of a "stock" lisp. 16:15:23 (with ./clbuild dumpcore) 16:18:17 -!- male_terran [n=terran@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:18:42 ok, i'm doing that now, so after dumpcore, do i have to (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :foo) for a lib or are they already loaded after dumpcore --installed 16:19:03 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.154] has joined #lisp 16:19:08 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.180.3] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:19:18 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:19:40 load-op does nothing when a system is already loaded, so it wouldn't hurt, and would provide a fallback in case you missed a system that you thought was in the core. 16:21:33 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.154] has left #lisp 16:21:40 egoz [i=egoz@114.58.66.173] has joined #lisp 16:21:41 LOAD-OP can be slow even if it's a no-op, so if you're trying to save time by dumping a core file, it's a sound choice not to consult ASDF all over again 16:22:11 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.154] has joined #lisp 16:22:15 -!- hjpark [n=user@jaram.hanyang.ac.kr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:22:18 Not as much time as fasl loading would have took, of course, but it can still be significant. 16:23:02 (taken?) 16:23:30 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.180.3] has joined #lisp 16:23:46 hmm, dumpcore dropped to debugger, said it couldn't find chapter-8, i choose continue but it seems like halted. 16:24:54 i guess i shouldn't install all of the main projects :) extra headache for libs that i probably ain't going to be able to use for a long time 16:26:13 divisionby0: you can dump a core that only contains the stuff you want instead of everything. e.g.: ./clbuild dumpcore mcclim 16:28:20 unhandled ASDF:MISSING-DEPENDENCY in thread #: 16:28:21 component :PNG-READ not found, required by 16:28:21 # 16:28:29 ups, 16:28:31 sorry 16:28:46 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:28:57 it halted even for mcclim, but i guess it is more related to mcclim than clbuild 16:29:28 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:30:20 Ah, this is why I make my own cores from the repl... 16:31:32 Now if only clbuild could be run with something like --load-core... 16:31:42 ... instead of just using monster.core 16:32:11 "if only"! It would be terrible if the source code were right there for you to modify 16:32:32 I hate that 16:32:41 All these open source hippies running around 16:33:04 Even worse is that it's a bash script! 16:33:15 No closed source stuff written in C++. 16:35:48 jlf [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 16:36:48 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.81.121] has joined #lisp 16:37:24 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:37:39 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 16:39:02 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-209-191-133.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:41:26 i need an interface that has a command prompt at bottom side like the ones in mcclim examples and a frame that is able to draw some vector graphics primitives according to the commands, can mcclim totally handle that or do i need some extra libs for drawing issue? 16:41:46 divisionby0: mcclim can draw 16:42:44 divisionby0: take a look at the clim spec. You have all sorts of primitives 16:43:04 -!- SimonH [n=simonh@78.148.105.151] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:46:25 divisionby0: I would suggest you to play around with clim commands in the listener. it's easy to write your drawing commands and immediately see the result 16:48:20 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:50:26 Sikander: ok, thanks, are there mcclim example sources except the ones included in ./clbuild run demodemo 16:51:13 and last question, is mcclim totally compatible with clim spec? 16:51:38 -!- divisionby0 [n=division@88.238.223.232] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:52:01 divisionby0 [n=division@88.238.223.232] has joined #lisp 16:52:06 divisionby0: the demos you get with run demodemo are the demos included with mcclim. clbuild just provides a nice way to call them. 16:52:54 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-113-231.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:53:01 And regarding the spec, I'm not sure. I haven't bumped into anything yet, but I'm no clim expert 16:54:54 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-113-231.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:55:45 jmbr [n=jmbr@97.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:56:50 Is there any way to copy hashtables directly? I realize it's not portable, but maybe some sort of trivial-copy-hashtable that took advantage of implementation-specific functions? 16:56:56 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:57:09 -!- divisionby0 [n=division@88.238.223.232] has left #lisp 16:57:14 Adlai: maphash? 16:57:24 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:57:42 s/directly/faster than maphash/ 16:58:13 well, I think alexandria has a copy-hash-table, but I imagine it just maphashes. 16:58:24 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 17:00:40 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 17:01:09 LiamH: In gsll, I don't quite understand this syntax: ("gsl_matrix" :type "_set_identity") in the defmfun. What does it mean, or where can I find out how the :type thing works? 17:01:47 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.196.19] has joined #lisp 17:02:15 Sikander: It means to substitute the GSL name for the element type to construct the GSL function name. 17:03:04 So it would make e.g. "gsl_matrix_uint_set_identity" for an (unsigned-byte 32) element type. 17:03:11 fusss_ [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 17:03:34 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:03:40 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 17:03:41 LiamH: Ah, right, I see. and :category means something like "matrix" or "vector". 17:03:56 Sikander: I think so 17:04:24 If you use slime, put your cursor at the start of the defmfun form and do c-m-m, that should macroexpand it. 17:05:01 *Sikander* makes a note to self: use macroexpand(-1) more often 17:05:29 Sikander: No really use Slime. 17:05:43 *Sikander* uses vim... 17:05:45 Sikander: all the time! There's no way I could have written GSLL without c-m m 17:06:15 I use vim with nekthuth 17:06:29 -!- Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:06:30 it should be like breathing. Calling macroexpand literally and pasting in the form is too slow 17:06:44 nekthuth isn't bad, you should talk to the author about writing a macro-expansion tool which supports in pace eypansion 17:06:57 in place expansion 17:07:05 or, use slime! 17:07:20 tcr: you can tell herbieB yourself! :D 17:07:29 you can use the :NekthuthMacroExpand command 17:07:36 That's what I do 17:08:43 I have a question regarding the use of emacs: isn't the config file just plain el? Does that mean you can run _any_ code from the configuration file? 17:09:02 right 17:09:49 I know it's convenient to do this, because you can reprogram your whole editor, but doesn't this also pose a risk? 17:09:58 no 17:10:09 yes! If the butterflies get loose, there's no knowing what will happen 17:10:16 Interesting that a lisp programmer should ask that question. 17:10:20 Someone who cracked your account could place malicious code into your ~/.emacs 17:10:32 Sikander, your shell also has an .rc file that can run anything. 17:10:33 or, root 17:10:45 genetically modified code! Which will breed a mutant super editor 17:11:14 with a human retrovirus that will make you and your descendants sick 17:11:16 I'm just checking. 17:11:26 ;-) teasing 17:11:34 I'm not opposed to the design, I was just wondering if this was ever a point of worry 17:11:52 vim has a weird config file language that I don't understand 17:11:59 :) 17:12:56 I was writing some program to do some things and let the config file just be code as well. Because it's easy to do it that way. But then I started wondering if that was "proper design". 17:13:03 So that's why I asked. 17:13:20 I regard that as a feature. 17:13:36 it's truly a useful feature. 17:13:39 In fact the compelling feature. 17:14:23 Do you generally use (load ...) to do load the config file then? 17:14:32 to load ... 17:14:59 depends, might make more sense to design your own language and use a READ 17:15:11 rares [n=rares@130.13.176.255] has joined #lisp 17:15:26 or use something like http://www.cliki.net/trivial-configuration-parser 17:15:33 *LiamH* breaks for lunch 17:16:01 well, I just (load ...)'ed 17:16:04 :( 17:16:23 For something small, I think designing a language around it is too much 17:16:29 what usually controls the indenting with emacs and slime, i recently changed my install and now it does seem to indent proper with tab, it lines up rather crocked 17:16:38 does/doesn't 17:17:17 -!- rares [n=rares@130.13.176.255] has left #lisp 17:18:18 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-100-162.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 17:18:55 Guthur: (setq lisp-indent-function 'common-lisp-indent-function lisp-simple-loop-indentation 1 lisp-loop-keyword-indentation 6 lisp-loop-forms-indentation 6)) 17:23:03 wow, a real setq... I thought those things didn't exist any more ;) 17:23:19 that's elisp 17:23:35 it doesn't have setf? 17:23:45 it doesn't 17:23:55 weird 17:23:57 old 17:24:01 sure it does when (require 'cl) ;) 17:24:09 heheh 17:25:47 arquebus [n=shintaro@201.139.156.133] has joined #lisp 17:26:50 kye_square [n=kye@142.157.35.46] has joined #lisp 17:28:49 tcr that will do, cheers 17:36:43 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:37:24 Nshag [i=user@193.248.203.163] has joined #lisp 17:40:15 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust936.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 17:40:24 divisionby0 [n=division@88.238.223.232] has joined #lisp 17:42:02 wow 17:42:23 divisionby0 pasted "dumpcore mcclim" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88840 17:42:29 when i try to ./clbuild dumpcore mcclim it droppes to debugger with this 17:43:34 first i thought some library is missing but i guess i'm wrong 17:45:04 Yeah, I see, I have the same problem 17:46:05 What I did was to go on the sbcl repl, (require :mcclim-freetype) and all other stuff I like, and then dump the core from there. 17:47:11 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.169.204] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:47:32 -!- arquebus [n=shintaro@201.139.156.133] has left #lisp 17:48:10 how can i dump the core inside sbcl for using with clbuild? 17:48:36 with sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die 17:48:52 Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 17:50:34 -!- jlf [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:50:36 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 17:50:45 I agree with the guy who said he should take up carpentry 17:51:10 turns out i was scrolled way up the page 17:53:22 divisionby0: go on the repl, load all packages you want and then do (save-lisp-and-die "monster.core"). Then run clbuild preloaded 17:53:46 png-read is missing from clbuild 17:53:51 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:03 ..the fix is simple .. i'll paste .. sec. 17:56:10 or, well .. just add this to the 'projects' file: png-read get_git git://github.com/Ramarren/png-read.git # A PNG decoder for Common Lisp 17:57:53 the deps. (the 'dependencies' file) for png-read are "png-read alexandria babel chipz iterate trivial-features" and the new deps. for mcclim then turn out to be "mcclim alexandria babel cffi chipz cljl clx flexichain iterate png-read skippy slime spatial-trees trivial-features" 18:01:05 -!- divisionby0 [n=division@88.238.223.232] has left #lisp 18:01:32 Sikander pasted "gsll fft woes for LiamH" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88842 18:01:36 you scared him ;p 18:01:50 heheh 18:01:59 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:02:50 LiamH: I give up. I tried all sorts of crazy things. If you can have a look at the paste and get it to work, I would be eternally grateful 18:03:03 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 18:03:26 divisionby0 [n=division@88.238.223.232] has joined #lisp 18:03:39 Do you want me to just try to run it and see what I get? 18:03:47 Please do 18:03:54 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:04:27 The paste should work out of the box (or rather, shouldn't...) 18:05:00 compiles cleanly... 18:06:15 #C(1.0 0.0) 11 times at the start and 10 times at the end, the rest complex 0 18:06:25 is that what you got? 18:06:29 Yeah 18:06:42 That's the input 18:06:51 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 18:07:25 The output should be oscillatory. The first and last elements should be high, while oscillating and decreasing to the centre 18:07:44 and this example works in C? 18:07:50 Yes 18:08:12 Taken from http://www.gnu.org/software/gsl/manual/html_node/Radix_002d2-FFT-routines-for-complex-data.html 18:08:14 there is a mcclim example "logic cube", there is a 3d view of a cube that we can rotate in this example, is there 3d objects drawing in mcclim? 18:08:47 Sikander: I don't see anything wrong with it. 18:09:04 divisionby0: I don't think so. At least, not if you mean accelerated (opengl) but also not primitives as far as I remember. 18:09:15 LiamH: I'm going crazy here... 18:09:32 Except, GSL's gsl_complex_packed_array is what? 18:10:08 Is that the same as pointer to a complex matrix double? 18:10:11 a double array that's twice as large as the number of complex data. It contains alternating real and imaginary values 18:10:20 Hmm 18:10:23 -!- drago`` [n=user@82.113.106.145] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:10:36 But the C declaration is not a pointer 18:10:41 drago`` [n=user@82.113.106.145] has joined #lisp 18:10:42 LiamH: This is why I asked you this yesterday. See the top part of http://www.gnu.org/software/gsl/manual/html_node/Overview-of-complex-data-FFTs.html 18:10:46 gsl_complex_packed_array data 18:11:04 LiamH: see the top of the previous url 18:11:05 Athas [n=athas@80.161.87.214] has joined #lisp 18:11:42 I see one problem 18:11:46 Great! 18:11:48 what? 18:12:24 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:25 I thought the array was just a linear array, without anything. 18:12:29 when I fix it, I lock up SBCL :-( 18:12:31 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.154] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:12:32 Isn't it? 18:12:36 D'oh! 18:12:42 What's the problem? 18:12:52 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.212] has joined #lisp 18:12:59 -!- kye_square [n=kye@142.157.35.46] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:13:02 Well, two problems 18:13:07 Even better! 18:13:17 but my C-fu is weak 18:13:20 double x[3*2]; 18:13:22 means what? 18:13:40 a double array of size 6 18:13:45 OK 18:13:55 ie 6 doubles 18:14:08 probably to suggest that it should be thought of as a 3x2 array. 18:14:14 So by saying we're passing a pointer to GSL array ("mpointer") we're making a mistake. 18:14:22 why? 18:14:47 double x[6]; and then saying x, then x is a pointer to the first element of that array 18:14:49 There's no GSL array there at all. It's a "raw" C array. So I substituted #'c-pointer for #'mpointer. 18:15:00 ah 18:15:08 That's what caused the SBCL lockup. 18:15:35 so data is a pointer to the start of the array? 18:15:46 wait, didn't I ask you yesterday if the complex marray was just a bare array with alternating real and imaginary elements? Maybe I wasn't clear... 18:15:51 yes 18:16:11 Sikander, well I might have misinterpreted your question. The storage is that way. 18:16:27 Yeah, I wasn't entirely clear, I see 18:16:31 -!- divisionby0 [n=division@88.238.223.232] has left #lisp 18:16:49 Anyway, first order of business, kill SBCL. 18:17:09 ? 18:17:23 it's not interruptable or responding 18:17:30 Ah... Nice 18:17:43 not even with a pkill -9 sbcl? 18:17:58 yeah that worked 18:19:21 So I guess we need to pass the ffa from the marray 18:20:03 is there a function that will tell me if a symbol is lexically bound ? 18:20:32 LiamH: What I don't understand is that when passing the marray, there wasn't a memory violation of sorts. gsl didn't complain, and I don't see any effect of memory corruption after the fft. 18:20:42 xristos: sb-cltl2:variable-information 18:21:50 It works! 18:22:05 Dammit, how! 18:22:10 I suck :( 18:22:37 No, you were fine, the only mistake was from my misdirection. 18:22:50 well, miscommunication 18:22:52 change the mpointer to c-pointer, that's it 18:22:56 D'oh! 18:23:14 billitch [n=billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:15 I don't know why it locked up before, but running a fresh SBCL from the shell, it's fine. 18:23:29 So there _was_ memory corruption 18:23:45 probably... 18:23:55 Sikander: ah, yes, quite possibly, hidden though 18:24:04 delayed effect 18:24:28 Great! It works! Thanks 18:24:44 Now to get all the others in there as well, and write some nice wrappers. 18:25:14 OK, good! Then send a patch, or the url for your git repo with the branch. 18:25:15 I wasn't aware of the difference between c-pointer and mpointer, or even of the existence of c-pointer. 18:25:42 Ok, thanks. Ah, I can go off to dinner now... 18:25:47 Yes, some GSL functions take raw C arrays instead of GSL vectors or matrices. In some cases they even have functions for both. 18:26:07 yeah. long live gsl and it's excellent documentation 18:26:07 Sikander: are you in Europe? 18:26:13 Yes 18:26:23 *LiamH* just finished lunch 18:26:28 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@22.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:26:31 shamwow [n=eshamay@97-125-45-127.eugn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:37 bon apetit 18:26:39 *Sikander* will get some dinner now 18:26:43 thanks :) 18:26:50 Thanks for the FFT work. 18:27:00 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:28:19 has anyone seen libraries for gedcom/genealogical work? 18:32:00 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.212] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:32:16 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.22] has joined #lisp 18:36:07 chris2_ [n=chris@dslb-094-216-043-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:46 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.196.19] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 18:39:09 phao [n=phao@201.58.182.41] has joined #lisp 18:39:14 -!- phao [n=phao@201.58.182.41] has left #lisp 18:39:15 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-104-232.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:39:20 -!- chris2_ is now known as chris2 18:40:20 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 18:40:49 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@97.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:42:48 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.173] has quit ["so long.."] 18:43:59 huh. Where in the standard (if?) does it say that programs can't modify the common lisp package? 18:44:56 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:45:07 clhs 11.1.2.1.2 18:45:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm 18:45:48 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:47:00 well, except not 18:47:23 you're probably going to say that all of those restrictions only apply to external symbols of the CL package, and not to the package itself 18:47:28 I mean, granted, that talks about removing symbols from the cl package 18:47:40 does it say anywhere that I'm not allowed to intern something new in the CL package 18:47:54 no, I don't think that is prohibited 18:49:23 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-109-137-43.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:49:36 huh 18:49:45 -!- drago`` [n=user@82.113.106.145] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:49:47 *Krystof* adjusts his brain 18:50:00 drago`` [n=user@82.113.106.145] has joined #lisp 18:50:05 ephcon [n=ephcon@c-24-63-201-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:11 -!- pragma_ is now known as umobepisdn 18:51:32 -!- umobepisdn is now known as umopepisdn 18:51:52 clisp has a bunch of non-exported symbols in its CL package 18:52:30 -!- umopepisdn is now known as umopepisdn` 18:52:32 right, but that's as an implementation. I'm interested in whether a user is allowed to intern arbitrary stuff in the CL package 18:52:39 and, say, export it 18:54:48 Does the standard ever make a distinction between what a user can do and what an implementation can do other than for the # dispatching macro characters? 18:54:58 sure 18:55:34 clhsh 11.1.2.1 18:55:43 clhs 11.1.2.1 18:55:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_aba.htm 18:55:51 there 18:56:16 conforming implementations, conforming users 18:56:16 an implementation can choose to document particular cases of undefined behaviour; a user can't 18:56:31 I see 18:57:43 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.196.19] has joined #lisp 18:58:03 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:37 ? (export 'cl::food (find-package "CL")) 18:58:37 T 18:58:47 that's CCL 18:59:10 bad user no cookie 18:59:31 foo ran into a conflict with a symbol in the CCL package 18:59:33 sbcl gives two package lock errors 18:59:37 piso: haha 18:59:45 that's funny 18:59:48 piso: yes, I think it's used as an argument in a function 18:59:56 I saw in iit in the minibuffer at one point 19:01:18 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:02:05 Krystof: clisp gives two package lock errors, but you can continue and the symbol CL:FOOD ends up exported 19:02:28 yeah, likewise 19:02:49 I mean, as an implementor and even as a user I think that users messing with the CL package should be shot 19:02:56 but formally it might not be illegal 19:03:22 if it were formally illegal, wouldn't sbcl (and clisp and openmcl) prevent it altogether? 19:04:34 sbcl? I dunno, two errors is quite good going 19:05:12 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 19:05:25 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:25 wow, I used accomplished (delete-package (find-package "CL")) in sbcl 19:06:35 I *just accomplished 19:06:49 and now what works? :-) 19:06:54 dunno 19:07:12 it told me #:T 19:07:27 interestingly, (* 2 3) still works 19:07:30 not much else does 19:07:37 (+ 2 3) doesn't, for example 19:07:46 Krystof: * is in the CL-USER package 19:09:09 huh. 19:09:15 it's the repl variable 19:09:20 last returned value 19:09:25 um, no 19:09:27 that is not the reason 19:09:30 no? 19:09:32 no 19:09:48 the reason is that "*" is exported by sb-alien, which is one of the packages that CL-USER uses 19:10:06 hmm, ok 19:10:16 values likewise 19:10:25 so (values 2 3) will continue to work at the repl 19:11:05 clisp discourages deletion of the CL package by making you type continue to unintern each symbol of the CL package, one at a time 19:11:24 piso: ever heard of handler-bind ? 19:11:41 well, I'm just typing things here :) 19:11:42 my guess is that piso has heard of handler-bind 19:11:55 Krystof: yeah, given that he's probably written it, at least twice. 19:11:56 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-203-64.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 19:12:40 s/written it/stolen it from a high-quality source/ 19:12:46 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229240048.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 19:13:00 Krystof: well I did say "probably"... 19:13:18 they also serve who only steal from high-quality sources 19:14:04 hmm... I tried (ignore-errors (delete-package ...)) but apparently I had already uninterned ignore-errors 19:14:16 it's not like I have written it once 19:14:25 someone wrote it back in the 1980s 19:14:28 piso: wouldn't that just die after the first error? 19:14:46 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 19:14:47 Adlai: I was looking forward to finding out 19:15:07 it's called ignore-errors, not ignore-first-error, after all 19:15:44 *piso* gives up on this clisp instance 19:17:08 hi worlds, i'll paste another beginers error with macros,i need some help, thanks 19:17:35 salva pasted "beginers macro error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88845 19:18:30 Krystof: 11.1.2.1 says "The COMMON-LISP package can have additional internal symbols." as if, maybe, additional external symbols would be frowned upon 19:18:46 but the spec is rather coy there 19:19:03 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 19:19:05 oh, no, the implementaiton is definitely not allowed to have any other external ones 19:19:14 somewhere it says that there are exactly the 978 symbols 19:19:24 salva: I don't believe that you would get that error 19:19:42 salva: the error you should get from your transcript is "reader error: comma not inside a backquote" 19:19:44 well, if the user adds an external symbol to the CL package, it would have an additional external symbol 19:20:21 that is, unless the implementation prevented it from happening 19:21:55 does the spec list penalties that are to be applied to non-conforming users? 19:22:21 Krystof: i get this error, there is one comma and is inside a backquote 19:22:59 dio11 [n=x3User73@95.129.166.98] has joined #lisp 19:23:16 `(let ((app-run-name ,app-name))) 19:23:40 a yes 19:23:45 in repl command 19:23:53 Hello 19:24:00 i write it bad in repl 19:24:00 I am from Ruusia :) 19:24:06 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 19:24:12 -!- Krystof has set mode +b *!*@95.129.166.* 19:24:20 woo, ban list not full! 19:24:46 Being Russian is grounds for a ban? 19:25:01 dunno, in retrospect it looks a bit hair-trigger 19:25:12 but it tickled my spidey sense 19:25:25 =P 19:25:25 tell you what, let's see what develops 19:25:33 -!- Krystof has set mode -b *!*@95.129.166.* 19:25:36 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:25:58 Krystof: putting in repl xirafa-erp> (generate-app-type%% app) is how i get this error 19:26:01 Krystof: how come they don't get kicked when you ban them? 19:26:11 why should they? 19:26:20 it just prevents them from reconnecting? 19:26:20 Adlai: Because he only banned him. He didn't kickban him. 19:26:25 ok 19:26:32 having silent minions here increases my prestige 19:27:00 silent minions... like Xof? 19:27:03 Krystof you prestige - big ass 19:27:23 good bye boys ) 19:27:30 -!- dio11 [n=x3User73@95.129.166.98] has quit [] 19:27:59 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 19:28:03 strange, i don't think he is your friend anymore krystof 19:28:12 I can live with that 19:28:31 In Soviet Russia, dio11 bans you. Krystof has made a powerful enemy. 19:28:55 Self-fulfilling spidey sense. 19:29:13 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:16 uh huh 19:31:30 yeah. I apologise if I have turned the whole of Ruusia against us 19:31:57 that the specification does not prohibit interning &c in the CL package is obviously (|:)|) an error in the spec. 19:34:04 especially given 11.1.2.1.2.1, it's reasonably plausible that the intent is that no two conforming programs can interfere with each other (by way of messing with #.(find-package :cl) or other shared resources) when loaded into the same image 19:34:17 otoh, they could have just said that. 19:34:49 by the way, is it possible to bind the symbol &KEY in a function? 19:34:59 one of the Issues says "it's a shame we can't put the rationale in section 11.1.2.1.2" 19:35:01 Adlai: yes 19:35:02 s/function/lambda-list/ 19:35:21 Krystof: how? 19:35:25 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:28 I mean as a required parameter 19:35:38 *kpreid* has an idea 19:35:41 so no (lambda (&optional (&key nil))) 19:36:03 as a required parameter, no 19:36:11 ah 19:36:15 ((lambda (&optional (&key (error "required parameter"))) (print &key)) 1) 19:36:21 :-) 19:38:24 even better, catch the implementation's insufficient-args condition at load-time and signal an instance of that! 19:38:59 *Adlai* digresses. 19:40:24 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-5-194.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:41:36 -!- shamwow [n=eshamay@97-125-45-127.eugn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:44:07 shamwow [n=eshamay@97-125-43-128.eugn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:41 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:00 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 ve_ [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:56:37 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-15-109.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:57:31 is it just me or is psg.com down? <- the home of Successful Lisp 19:58:40 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:59:34 Florin_ [n=Florin@92.85.209.50] has joined #lisp 19:59:43 -!- spilman_ [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-52-218.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:01:21 -!- Florin_ [n=Florin@92.85.209.50] has quit [Client Quit] 20:02:02 looks down 20:02:44 aigon [n=ojof@92.85.209.50] has joined #lisp 20:03:07 Joreji [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:03:27 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.81.121] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:03:31 yeah. perhaps i should be grateful google's cache and my offline mirror 20:07:55 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.155.177] has joined #lisp 20:12:18 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:12:19 -!- ve_ is now known as ve 20:15:20 divisionby0 [n=division@88.238.223.232] has joined #lisp 20:17:20 can i use nearly the same interface code written in allegro to mcclim, i mean are allegro and lispworks clim implementations compliant with mcclim 20:19:09 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:27 xpwz [i=cef0181c@gateway/web/freenode/x-fsahkzlorrlcenqs] has joined #lisp 20:20:25 Is there is a solid, usable way to develop web applications in Common Lisp? Everything I find is either in "testing" or is half-finished. 20:20:44 -!- morphling [n=stefan@89.14.130.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:20:50 there is hunchentoot 20:20:59 various html generators 20:21:27 and clisp as a cgi language is better than every php framework 20:21:42 -!- aigon [n=ojof@92.85.209.50] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:22:00 You can even generate JavaScipt via parenscript 20:22:57 afaik reddit was written in hunchentoot 20:23:03 ok, maybe not better, but different 20:23:17 divisionby0: really? 20:23:28 divisionby0: I thought it was re-written in Python though. 20:23:30 i'm not sure 20:23:41 :) 20:23:50 Douglish [n=dal@horinek.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:54 Hi everybody. 20:24:00 hi Douglish 20:24:33 drago``: Let's say for fun that what I *really* want is a premade application framework, since I don't have time to create my own. What would you suggest? 20:24:39 Is there any function which would do this (how-many item list)) => how many times item occures in the list? :) 20:25:07 Douglish: Yes. 20:25:25 xpwz: I used hunchentoot a web server 20:25:44 yes they switched to python for several reasons, mostly because there were much more python coder outside. 20:25:48 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242356947.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [No route to host] 20:26:20 xpwz: And how is it called? 20:26:22 -!- nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has quit [""Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of coura] 20:26:23 xpwz: It depends on what you would like to do? 20:26:42 divisionby0: It was my understanding that the real reason they switched was due to the CL implementation crashing with threads or something like that. 20:26:59 xpwz: the real reason is that they developed and deployed in different environments. 20:27:38 xpwz: there are many frameworks outside, maybe take a look at http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-weblocks/ 20:27:43 pkhuong: Yeah, that's what I was getting at. They couldn't use an implementation that didn't crash because they had to have one that ran on both FreeBSD and OSX, ifI recall correctly. 20:27:54 -!- shamwow [n=eshamay@97-125-43-128.eugn.qwest.net] has quit [] 20:28:11 drago``: I have a large application that I'm porting that needs to take lots 'o data from a database quickly, and it has quite a bit of multi-level user interaction involved. I do not want to use CGI scripts. 20:28:21 ropert [n=user@CPE00222d12ee72-CM00222d12ee6e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:28:37 drago``: I considered Weblocks. 20:28:55 xpwz: Do you programmed in lisp before? 20:29:01 drago``: Yep. 20:29:09 xpwz: I see a very simple solution to that issue. 20:29:23 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 20:29:29 And it's both language and implementation independent. 20:29:53 pkhuong: It was my understanding that clisp would have fixed their problems, but they were scared to use it due to GNU liscensing or something like that. 20:29:55 There is clsql for database access, if you don't want cgi scripts then there is mod lisp for apache 20:30:16 -!- jasber [n=bjasper@173.26.98.219] has quit ["Leaving..."] 20:30:20 drago``: I want to use weblocks, but has anyone actually used this to build production software? 20:30:38 The reason I'm asking about this is my other option is Ruby on Rails, and as much as I like Ruby I hate Ruby on Rails. 20:30:51 we have build our own webstack 20:31:09 and it depends where you want to host your stuff 20:31:10 xpwz: what does that matter ? try it for yourself 20:31:13 xpwz: http://www.lamsight.org/ and http://www.thanandar.de/ are on weblocks 20:31:13 xpwz: clisp wouldn't have worked very well: it didn't have thread back then, and they're still very much experimental. 20:31:17 i think there are others as well 20:31:31 i was working on a site with weblocks for a while as well 20:32:08 xpwz: I'm still not sure why they decided to deploy with CMUCL and green threads... Frankly, it's a management issue and not related to the language. 20:32:10 Edward_ [n=Ed@90.3.234.39] has joined #lisp 20:32:58 pkhuong: Yeah, I didn't really understand the reason for the re-write either. I felt like they reached a point where they were making up excuses; I suspect it has to do with hiring outside people to work on the codebase. 20:33:36 "we got what we wanted out of Graham; let's have some fun now" 20:33:47 -!- Krystof has set mode -o Krystof 20:33:54 fe[nl]ix: I considered that approach, but I've run into lots of libraries that look and sound great but are poorly planned and implemented, so I don't think it's all that unreasonable to ask for other people's experience with Weblocks. 20:34:19 saikat_: Thanks for the links. 20:34:28 can i use nearly the same allegro interface code in mcclim, i mean are allegro and lispworks clim implementations compliant with mcclim. and does interface objects of allegro directly use clim implementation of allegro or are they some sort of win api ports to cl? 20:34:54 xpwz: weblocks is certainly stable enough to use in production, but I think the biggest praise I can give it is that the current maintainer is extremely friendly, smart, and quick to respond to questions on the mailing list 20:35:07 you should definitely give it a shot for a couple of weeks 20:35:22 xpwz: I always assumed it had to do with the conde naste aquistion, and some of spex posts suggests that the founders wont be around forever. So it's probably more politics than technology. My 2 cents anyways 20:36:49 mcspiff: (and others) Here's a quote I found from one of the founders: "If Lisp is so great, why did we stop using it? One of the biggest issues was the lack of widely used and tested libraries. Sure, there is a CL library for basically any task, but there is rarely more than one, and often the libraries are not widely used or well documented. Since we're building a site largely by standing on the shoulders of others, this made things 20:37:03 But they didn't really name what specific libraries they were lacking. 20:37:09 saikat_: That's good to hear. 20:37:40 xpwz: i think i've read the article that quote is from and i remember it being a few years old 20:37:46 i don't think that is the case anymore 20:38:05 saikat_: Yeah, the actual page on reddit.com where they talk about it has been taken down. 20:38:45 xpwz: I remember. Regardless reddit is still usually open in my browser, and I'm sure everyone here knows that such a site could be handled in lisp, or java, or ruby on rails, or... 20:38:51 xpwz: in what sense "poorly planned and implemented" ? 20:39:14 fe[nl]ix: Incomplete, terrible documentation, etc. 20:40:50 mcspiff: Yeah, I think even Paul Graham himself said that sort of application didn't really matter, since there was no reason to have a bunch of macros, etc. 20:41:02 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@90.3.234.39] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:41:06 xpwz: that's a perfect opportunity to improve them 20:41:15 xpwz: that must be why the killer app for Arc is news.yc 20:41:47 fe[nl]ix: I'd love to! In fact, I plan to. It's just have this other work I really need to get done first. 20:42:16 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 20:45:08 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-4-109.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:46:02 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.22] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:46:11 xpwz i'm trying build a mini web erp on lisp, im using gbbopen and clayworks or hunchentoot lml2 20:48:41 salva: What is clayworks? 20:49:06 is a webframework 20:49:28 salva: Ah. 20:49:35 is madnificent developing it 20:49:38 i think lisp just needs more people using it and then the libs and quality will build. 20:50:05 if only there were a way of making people use it 20:50:12 I know, I shall insist on it in my University 20:50:31 students will be made to implement REVERSE 20:50:49 xpwz: http://factory.homelinux.org/blogs/1 20:53:04 i continue with my basic macro error, need help from some caritative soul :( 20:53:29 -!- drago`` [n=user@82.113.106.145] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:53:39 salva pasted "beginers macro error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88857 20:55:28 jeti [n=jeti@p548EB36C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:55 Wow. Weblocks is nifty. From the looks of it, I could spend less than an hour reading the docs and starting building my app right away. 20:56:57 Sweet. 20:57:08 salva: well, you got run-time and macroexpansion times mixed 20:57:59 stassats`: in the macroexpand get de definition that l want 20:58:31 Where _the_ book about Ruby on Rails is almost 900 pages. 20:58:35 *Whereas 20:58:45 you macroexpand with MACROEXPAND function not what you macroexpand later 20:59:01 try (macroexpand-1 '(generate-app-type%% app)) 20:59:30 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:00:01 (macroexpand-1 '(generate-app-type%% app)) or (macroexpand-1 `(generate-app-type%% ,app)) 21:00:10 the former 21:00:33 xpwz: talk to you in one hour... 21:00:47 Fare: Oh, you're funny. 21:01:51 Fare: So are you implying that what's in the user manual is way less than what I need to know, or are you just being a smarty pants? 21:02:17 xpwz: Maybe he's suggesting that you stop praising weblocks and start actually reading the manual. 21:02:28 stassats`: whith (macroexpand-1 '(generate-app-type%% app)) with this i ge the error, but (macroexpand-1 `(generate-app-type%% ,app)) runs well and app is a param for expansion 21:02:40 well, now you see the difference 21:02:58 I am about through with the annoying blowhards on this channel. 21:03:01 -!- xpwz [i=cef0181c@gateway/web/freenode/x-fsahkzlorrlcenqs] has quit [] 21:03:36 I sincerely hope he'll be back victoriously in an hour. 21:03:55 salva: do you understand what's going on? 21:04:06 people just don't get sarcasm these days 21:04:12 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:04:35 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:04:39 Krystof: not everyone is british 21:04:40 stassats i dont understand in the first im not passing an app (applicaction-type) 21:05:12 then you don't understand how macros work 21:05:14 stassats`: but if i pased it in macroexpand-1 runs well 21:05:35 salva: is it your first macro? 21:05:53 im begining with its 21:05:55 maybe you want to experiment with simpler things, and build it step by step 21:06:08 (I recently learned syntax-case, twas kind of hard) 21:06:16 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:06:24 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html read this, for starters 21:06:31 the macroexpanded isnt the generated code? 21:06:59 *stassats`* still doesn't want to learn schemish macros 21:07:42 -!- divisionby0 [n=division@88.238.223.232] has left #lisp 21:08:28 -!- marioxcc is now known as hellboy 21:09:10 -!- hellboy is now known as marioxcc 21:09:55 i read that some days ago and made some macros is not the macroexpanded the generated code? 21:10:36 it is 21:10:43 -!- Athas [n=athas@80.161.87.214] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:11:02 Is there any way to catch the return value of a toplevel form? 21:11:27 that question makes no sense 21:11:29 it runs away from you? 21:11:39 well, to pass it to another form 21:11:58 actually, I thought of a better way to do things. 21:11:59 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:12:08 Thank you for the encouragement :) 21:13:09 Adlai, uh? in what context? 21:13:21 Adlai, at the REPL, use * ** *** / // /// 21:13:37 Adlai, otherwise, it's probably a bad idea 21:13:37 Fare: there's a macro which expands into two forms, the first of which needs to be eval-always 21:13:56 the second form needs to use what happens to be the return value of the first form 21:13:57 you can have the macro expand into an eval-always 21:14:12 but I don't want the second form at compile-time 21:14:21 and defparameter a gensym or so 21:14:25 however, there's another way to get the object that the first form returns 21:14:33 (it gets stored somewhere else) 21:14:38 so this isn't an issue. It was a brainfart. 21:15:03 yeah, using a gensym is possible 21:15:44 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:17:17 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:25 I wonder how FASLs refer to gensyms from other FASLs (if at all) 21:17:46 they don't 21:17:47 isn't it impossible to do that? (portably, at least?) 21:17:58 or at all, really. 21:18:32 is there any magic mechanism that ensures that gensyms are uniquely referred across FASLs, or does loading FASL B that refers to a gensym from FASL A lead to two different gensyms being created? 21:19:00 or is there an error because uninterned symbols are not dumpable? 21:20:14 egozegoz [i=egoz@114.59.177.159] has joined #lisp 21:20:42 the middle of your three options 21:20:50 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:20:55 Fare: I'd imagine there would be an error; ie, serializing a fasl would result in the binary equivalent of #<> 21:21:29 actually, yeah, what I said makes no sense because of macros. 21:22:02 Krystof: so within the expansion of a macro, EQ gensyms would be read in EQually, but across files, EQ gensyms would be not EQ? 21:22:55 EQ gensyms may but need not be loaded from a single fasl as EQ 21:23:19 there is no way for gensyms originally EQ, dumped in two separate fasls, to be loaded back as EQ in general 21:23:36 (think about loading each of those fasls individually into a clean lisp) 21:23:44 "Two apparently uninterned symbols S and C are similar if their names are similar." 21:23:46 clhs 3.4.2.2.2 21:23:46 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 3.4.2.2.2. 21:23:51 clhs 3.2.4,2.2 21:23:51 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 3.2.4,2.2. 21:23:53 damnit 21:23:56 clhs 3.2.4.2.2 21:23:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bdbb.htm 21:23:57 there it is 21:24:10 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:38 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.54.192] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:24:40 -!- egozegoz [i=egoz@114.59.177.159] has quit [Client Quit] 21:25:50 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 21:26:26 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.160.122] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:26:50 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.160.122] has joined #lisp 21:28:01 has anyone ever used (or seen code using) Franz' Environments thingy? 21:28:17 whether intended for use in Allegro or in its "portable" incarnation? 21:32:03 Krystof: that's about scoping declarations and all that, right? If so, I believe that python in CL project use(s|d) it. 21:32:37 and comments sent. 21:32:42 thanks 21:32:49 (for both) 21:33:37 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:33:48 phf [n=user@c-98-218-70-50.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:28 jmbr__ [n=jmbr@230.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:39:13 -!- egoz [i=egoz@114.58.66.173] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:40:33 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 21:40:34 lol this lisp is great stuff, i can think of no other language where i can discretely setup a window and invoke functions to display graphics to it 21:40:48 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:51 and edit the code at the same time 21:41:25 how do they compare to say lexicons? 21:41:25 Guthur: there's much more to CL than GUIs, and I hope you find out one day soon, because then it'll be even more awesome. 21:42:04 *Adlai* says lexicons 21:42:07 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 21:42:08 Guthur: python? scheme? ruby? [...] 21:42:34 pkhuong, scheme is a lisp dialect so thats not really fair 21:42:50 never tried ruby 21:42:51 tcl/tk? 21:42:57 Guthur: the point is that all those other languages have modifiable running "images" 21:43:16 although I'm not sure you can dump a compiled Ruby binary... 21:44:06 krystof i must check that out actually 21:44:13 factor 21:44:32 smalltalk, obviously (: 21:44:45 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-129-134.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:44:54 logo 21:44:58 hhh well its new and exciting for me 21:45:13 logo isn't really a fair comparison 21:45:31 oh, "fair". 21:45:42 what's fair? 21:45:44 I'm working at 10:45 on a Sunday evening, and you talk to me about "fair" 21:45:55 haha 21:45:59 Krystof: regular schedule for an academic. 21:46:18 haha, sucker! wait... 21:46:24 oh, nothing 21:46:41 yeah, I talked to my Head of Department about that. 21:46:43 nyef: ping 21:46:59 milanj [n=milan@77.46.174.157] has joined #lisp 21:46:59 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.174.157] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:47:02 :) 21:47:03 LiamH: erm, I'm making generic functions now, and have another issue. I'm not sure where the problem lies, but this seems strange (see paste) 21:47:05 "half of my time is bought out on this grant, right? So how come the two days research time that comes to are always Saturday and Sunday?" 21:47:09 Sikander annotated #88842 "generic fft for LiamH" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88842#1 21:47:11 adlai the gui is just a means to an end, i need a interface for the real program, which God willing will have so i decent AI, as long as i am up to the task 21:47:21 sunday night: perfect time to update a live server... :) 21:47:22 so/some 21:47:47 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:52 Guthur: unless you're willing, God won't be able to help much. 21:48:18 i am wiling, its the ability and time that worries me 21:48:55 Sikander: expr floor log? At least, use integer length, but there's actually a simple trick to get the next power of two. 21:48:59 adlai never implemented a game AI before 21:49:11 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:49:46 pkhuong: yeah, I'm not proud of it, it's just a quick hack which I need to fix. But I was trying to get the generic working first. 21:50:46 pkhuong: out of curiosity, what's the trick? 21:50:50 You just have to shift right and or enough times (ceil lg # bits) to make sure every bit to the right of the msb is set, and increment by 1. So, something like (let* ((x1 (logior x (ash x -1))) (x2 (logior x1 (ash x1 -2))) ...) (1+ xn))). 21:51:05 ... 21:51:30 that's as ugly as expt floor log 21:51:43 probably faster, but imo less readable 21:52:04 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@22.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:52:05 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.155.177] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:52:09 my app has an event loop which ties up the repl, is it possible run another repl at edit the program from there 21:52:15 integer-length for clarity, the above for efficiency. 21:52:25 s/repl at/repl and 21:52:32 start your event loop in a new thread 21:53:21 well, I doubt that finding the longest possible radix-2 vector from a given vector is going to be the most time-consuming step in an fft. 21:53:41 Sikander: why does *stride* default to complex floats? 21:53:58 Sikander: nope, but floor log is much uglier than integer-length (: 21:53:59 pkhuong: now _that_'s the question 21:54:07 stassats' you mean in the program itself?, does it have to be held globally somewhere then? 21:54:12 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:54:14 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:54:26 drago`` [n=user@82.113.121.154] has joined #lisp 21:54:31 Sikander: it would be interesting to compare GSL's FFT to bordeaux FFT, especially on sbcl/amd64. 21:54:46 jenia [n=jenia@modemcable148.172-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:54:49 hey guys 21:54:52 can anyone tell me 21:54:53 pkhuong: I'm planning to do that. Dammit, first get the fft's up and running! 21:55:08 when i do (car(cdr(cdr lst))) 21:55:11 and lst is a tree 21:55:20 pkhuong: I also want to try out this other fft that whatshisface made 21:55:23 i'm accessing the head of the right subtree no? 21:55:44 Sikander: patrick stein (nklein.com). 21:56:01 pkhuong: that's his face,yes 21:56:03 jenia: Maybe you should try destructuring? 21:56:04 clhs destructuring-bind 21:56:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_destru.htm 21:56:21 and CADDR 21:56:51 pkhuong: Anyway, the generic fft not working now is that, I guess, stride is for some reason complex. 21:56:51 -!- phf [n=user@c-98-218-70-50.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:56:57 stassats`: I'd rather teach somebody about dolist before I show them tagbody. 21:57:05 what? 21:57:21 pkhuong: I define it correctly in the defmfun, but the macroexpand shows horrible things 21:57:32 ie, CADDR is a direct but unclear way 21:57:48 that's why you should abstract things 21:57:48 pkhuong: At least, I think I define it correctly in the defmfun 21:58:20 Adlai: caddr is as clear as (car (cdr (cdr 21:58:29 stassats`: right, which isn't very clear. 21:59:44 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:01 pkhuong: are the bordeaux ffts for arbitrary length data? 22:00:40 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@adsl-89-134-4-48.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 22:00:45 kupad_ [n=kupad@dsl254-079-179.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:04 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-4-204.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:01:10 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 22:01:38 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:58 ltriant [n=ltriant@59.167.195.42] has joined #lisp 22:05:47 ++age;. 22:05:48  141   22:05:49 ++age;. 22:05:49  141   22:05:59 sorry (% 22:07:40 ++age; => you're getting old, fast 22:08:15 age++; => you're getting old, slowly? 22:08:49 pkhuong: So you suggest (expt 2 (integer-length (1- (size foo)))) instead of (expt 2 (floor (log (size foo) 2))) ? 22:08:57 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:09:12 tic: age++ => you're getting old faster than you know it 22:09:22 tic, age++ => you're getting old, but the effect doesn't show just yet 22:10:01 effects lag by 141 day 22:10:04 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:10:15 -!- omerta [n=glgomert@201.243.137.4] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:10:40 beware what happened to Dorian Gray... 22:10:46 stassats' for that threading approach would you recommend bordeaux-threads 22:10:56 Fare, good one. 22:11:03 who wasn't as pure as he looked 22:11:29 Dorian Gray, isn't that the guy from some portrait somewhere? 22:11:29 Guthur: for developing i'd use implementation dependant threading features 22:11:32 ;) 22:12:13 Sikander, the portrait was actually more than a representation, a reflective interface with intercessive capabilities 22:12:26 omerta [n=glgomert@201.243.137.4] has joined #lisp 22:12:29 Fare: Really, I didn't see the movie, so... 22:12:43 you could read the short story -- better for your culture 22:12:58 Well, you already spoiled the ending for me 22:13:25 Fare: I'm just pulling your leg. Of course I read it years ago... 22:13:31 the source is valuable for its structure, not just for the end result 22:13:39 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:13:42 heheh 22:14:01 I'll read it after the new Grisham 22:14:03 divisionby0 [n=division@88.238.223.232] has joined #lisp 22:14:03 heheh 22:14:05 Guthur: I don't see why you wouldn't be able to use BT 22:14:21 Fare: Sorry, I'm making stupid jokes at your expense. 22:14:56 sykopomp, i'll gave SBCL's a go first off, it is only to ease development at this point 22:15:12 does anyone know how to disable clisp logo at startup 22:15:31 Guthur: using BT will probably be simpler than using SBCL 22:15:31 Guthur: if all you need is to run an event loop, (bt:make-thread #'event-loop) will do the trick. You'll be able to use the REPL then. 22:15:47 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.180.3] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:16:09 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:16:26 divisionby0: are you an antisemite? 22:16:39 ? 22:16:50 (and that's -q option) 22:16:57 divisionby0, --quiet --quiet 22:16:57 Sikander: the clisp logo is the candle holder thingy. 22:17:06 ah 22:17:07 menorah 22:17:10 that 22:17:13 heheh 22:17:31 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:17:34 I didn't know, I'm a poor guy using sbcl 22:17:50 clisp is just as expensive, and twice as Free. 22:17:51 rares [n=rares@130.13.176.255] has joined #lisp 22:17:53 stassats`: i don't know, i even don't know the meaning :) 22:18:01 Free. As in Freedom. 22:18:02 sykopomp: that's too free for me 22:18:02 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:18:20 Sikander: you should try to use more Free software. It'll do you good. 22:18:38 will it liberate your soul? 22:18:49 It will set your mind... Free... ? 22:18:50 stassats`: on the contrary, it'll send you to hel. 22:18:53 *hell 22:19:03 Sikander: Yes. From Corporate Tooldom. 22:19:06 I think open source and free software is evil and un-american 22:19:08 ;) 22:19:30 Dammit, we should all be using C#, .net etc and like it! 22:19:34 -!- Jabberwock [n=jens@82.113.121.155] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:19:37 Sikander: it's true. That's why I'm a Komrade. 22:20:30 Sikander: what happened to Ada? 22:20:30 Well, I vote for corporate! Give them all control over my computer, my information and identity! 22:20:40 I don't think it's gets more american than Ada Americana 22:21:11 stassats`: Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice against or hostility towards Jews. -wikipedia. hmmm, no i'm not. in fact i'm not that interested in religion to be against one. 22:21:11 yeah, but isn't there a free ada '95 compiler? That's unamerican! 22:21:24 Sikander: that's the true meaning of Liberty, after all. The freedom to get screwed over by artificial entities with complete disregard for human life :D 22:21:25 -!- koollman [n=samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:21:49 GCC has an Ada compiler. 22:21:55 sykopomp: Yes! Power to the companies! Down with those free software hippies! 22:21:57 GNAT, I think. 22:22:01 syes, but it's american 22:22:07 koollman [n=samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:17 -!- jmbr__ is now known as jmbr 22:22:29 I once wanted to try ada, but the download was huge! That already stopped me. Sad but true 22:22:29 fiveop [n=fiveop@92.229.240.48] has joined #lisp 22:22:39 -!- rares [n=rares@130.13.176.255] has left #lisp 22:22:51 -!- lispm [n=joswig@g224125021.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 22:23:08 pon][ [n=pon][@h202n2-haes-a12.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 22:23:11 Fare: btw, thanks :) 22:23:33 But seriously, I only use free software. 22:23:44 Sikander: I think if I put together all the lisp compilers I have installed, it adds up to about half the jiggabytes GHC alone takes up. 22:23:46 Sikander: That's hard to explain, isn't it? 22:24:06 LiamH: I don't get it :( 22:24:14 Sikander: Can we have a BSD vs GNU flamewar? 22:24:16 The stride for complex-fast-fourier-transform-radix2 looks ok 22:24:33 dandersen: I prefer vi vs emacs, but for that I'm in the wrong group 22:24:44 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 22:24:50 Sikander: you should work on Limp. 22:24:54 LiamH: Why does the macroexpand make a complex out of it 22:24:55 Limp would be nice to have. 22:24:58 it would. 22:25:03 *tic* waves hand. 22:25:07 sykopomp: I prefer nekthuth 22:25:17 Sikander: I used to be an Emacs zealot. I use vi nowadays. But I guess Emacs would win the war as it can emulate vi, whereas vi can't emulate Emacs. 22:25:31 dandersen, vi or vim? 22:25:35 Sikander: I'm trying to figure that out. I understand it at one level. 22:25:35 emacs is pretty bloat. 22:25:40 dandersen: someone needs to implement vi in cl 22:25:40 but I like the bindings a lot. 22:25:41 *tic* needs to pick up Limp again. *sigh* 22:25:51 tic: you do! I agree. 22:25:53 Sikander, agreed. 22:26:01 Sikander: I did write 'ed' in Forth a long time ago. 22:26:22 there's ed in lisp 22:26:46 sykopomp, been having way too much in my head last, uhm, year. Hope to sort things out. However, there's a large problem with Limp, which is that Vim is written in C. It'll always be tedious to customize it using Common Lisp. 22:26:52 *Zzz* 22:26:58 tic: The first argument vi zealots use against Emacs zealots is "what do you do with Emacs when you don't have your .emacs file with you?". I can say the same thing about .vimrc files. 22:27:01 Well, is there anyone who is working on climacs? Are there plans to separate the buffers? I would love to use those for vi in cl 22:27:01 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@92.229.240.48] has quit [Client Quit] 22:27:18 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:27:24 Sikander: For scalars that are supposed to be the same type as the element-type of the array, it will coerce the supplied default value to that type. But I don't know why it thinks that's supposed to be the element type. 22:27:25 tic: And, to answer your question, I use vim only when syntax highlighting helps. 22:27:26 -!- divisionby0 [n=division@88.238.223.232] has left #lisp 22:27:26 LiamH: well, it seems that I'm not contributing much... :( 22:27:53 Sikander: No, your code looks right. 22:28:05 stassats`: Can you link me to ed in Lisp? 22:28:07 LiamH: Wait, what you said about scalars 22:28:16 holly__ [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:28:19 stassats`: I'd like to see it too 22:28:20 Sikander: yes? 22:28:34 LiamH: Why would it do that? 22:28:49 Sikander: Well, that's what I don't understand. 22:29:17 Sikander: If you had said (stride element-type) in the C declaration, I would understand it. 22:29:19 LiamH: what I mean is, how do you determine if a scalar is supposed to be the same type as the element-type? How does it deduce that? 22:29:26 LiamH: Ah 22:29:26 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:29:50 http://darcs.informatimago.com/darcs/public/lisp/common-lisp/ed.lisp 22:29:52 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.83] has joined #lisp 22:30:13 dandersen: it always shocks me how vim lights up like a christmas tree :P 22:30:16 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-4-109.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 22:30:25 stassats`: Pascal wrote that? That's interesting. Thanks for the link. 22:30:28 LiamH: Interestingly, when you run it, stride is coerced to the element type, while n is set to nil 22:30:48 sykopomp: hmm? 22:30:50 sykopomp: Haha, I'm adding that to my fortune file. 22:30:54 Sikander: For example, see #'matrix-product in linear-algebra/blas2.lisp. Notice the C declaration (alpha :element-c-type) 22:31:01 *Adlai* is confused :| 22:31:25 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-203-64.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:31:34 tic dandersen: Are you interested in a vi in cl? 22:32:10 LiamH: I see it. But I don't understand why it does what it does here. 22:32:29 schoppenhauer [n=christop@host159.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 22:32:30 Sikander: It's an interesting idea I would like to see implemented. Are you thinking about giving it a go? 22:32:56 Sikander: Interesting data point. I can replace the sizet with _anything_ and it expands the same way. (stride zooble) does the same thing. 22:33:00 dandersen: Yes, I wanted to implement an editor for fun and learning about buffers. But it seems very complicated to start from scratch 22:33:01 -!- kerimbasol [n=kerim@85.107.240.25] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:33:06 Grrr. 22:33:12 LiamH: Weird! 22:33:26 This will require some digging I'm afraid. 22:33:29 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:34:14 LiamH: :( 22:34:16 rustywheeler [n=kliese@tecoma.eait.uq.edu.au] has joined #lisp 22:34:27 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483EF3B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:34:47 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-043-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:34:47 a call to bordeaux-threads:make-thread comes back with: there is no thread support in this instance, is this an environment problem or am i missing something 22:34:51 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 22:35:03 dandersen: So I was thinking about using the guts of climacs, write an editor core, and write either a clim or ncurses (or both) ui around it 22:35:05 Guthur: what implementation is that ? 22:35:13 Guthur: did you compile SBCL with threads? 22:35:24 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.180.3] has joined #lisp 22:35:25 Sikander: I would first implement 'ex', then go on to having the buffer displayed. Then think about adding vi commands and the different modes. 22:35:30 fe[nl]ix sbcl 22:36:05 sykopomp you know, i don't know. i didn't compile it at all actually, i took the binary if i remember right 22:36:11 dandersen: sounds like a plan. That's how it grew historically, no? 22:36:23 Guthur: then compile it with threads. 22:36:28 or use a binary that has threads enabled :) 22:36:29 Sikander: I haven't read the Climacs source, but I'm sure it's relatively bulky. Perhaps writing it from scratch would be simpler, and you always learn more about what you're writing that way. 22:36:46 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust936.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1"] 22:36:51 -!- rustywheeler [n=kliese@tecoma.eait.uq.edu.au] has left #lisp 22:37:04 Sikander: I would think so, yeah. 22:37:12 Sikander: only powers of two for now, but there are distant plans... 22:37:16 dandersen: Yes, I know. I'm reading to see if I can learn how to use flexistreams as buffers from the climacs sources and from that abstract the whole thing out 22:37:48 Guthur: what does (find :sb-thread *features*) return ? 22:38:15 pkhuong: Ok, that makes it simpler. I can already test it now without adding the gsl workspace and wavetables. I'll have a look at the bordeaux fft interface as well 22:38:16 fe[nl]is nil 22:38:20 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:38:22 not good i take it 22:38:40 Guthur: "compile sbcl with threads, or use a binary that has threads enabled" 22:39:03 Guthur: what sykopomp said 22:39:04 sykopomp ya thats my plan just looking now 22:39:06 Sikander: Let me know if you decide to take that as a pet project. 22:40:18 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-117-28.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 22:40:44 dandersen: I'd like to, but I don't have much time. ed.lisp seems like a good starting point, though. From there, make ex, then vi. 22:40:59 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 22:41:43 dandersen: But the editor should be separated from the ui, if you understand what I mean; I would like both clim and ncurses ui's eventually... 22:42:35 Sikander: McClim could use an ncurse backend. 22:42:40 Douglish pasted "alambda" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88862 22:42:50 Sikander: Yeah, I think I know what you mean. So you're going to write both vim and gvim? =] 22:43:10 Douglish: labels. 22:43:10 Would be anyone so kind and give me some advice about the post? :) 22:43:35 -!- holly_ [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:43:48 pkhuong: yeah.. But I wouldn't know how to implement drawing in curses 22:44:02 I was thinking about this. You shouldn't have to 22:44:06 dandersen: Yeah, exactly :) and of course swank/slime 22:44:15 Douglish: FLET or LABELS will define local functions 22:44:44 Xach, pkhuong thank you. 22:44:56 demmel [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-218-015.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:18 The thing is, I have all these pet projects I want to do, but I don't have the time for it :( 22:45:48 -!- xan_ is now known as xan-afk 22:46:26 Sikander: ed -> ex -> vi -> vim -> gvim. That's only a pet project if the evolution isn't planned. 22:46:37 Douglish: (labels ((self ,args ,@body)) #'self) 22:46:46 *sykopomp* remembers the days when he was horribly troubled by having no idea what project to take on. 22:46:56 simpler times... 22:47:01 dandersen: dang, the evolution _is_ planned. So there's a roadmap, a todo list, but no time 22:47:12 fe[nl]ix, not hygienic 22:47:36 I don't care 22:47:48 dandersen: Common Lisp Implementation of the Vi Editor: clive 22:47:51 sykopomp: "You could add four lanes to my carpal tunnel and I still could not write all the code I am dying to write."  Ken Tilton 22:48:03 mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6F01A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:24 Sikander: You already have a name. Get on coding! 22:48:25 kerimbasol [n=kerim@85.107.138.156] has joined #lisp 22:48:27 -!- holly__ [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:48:34 dandersen: Exactly! 22:48:44 now you just need a Web Coder 22:49:11 Adlai: *sigh* 22:49:11 -!- omerta [n=glgomert@201.243.137.4] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:49:29 what's a web coder *shame* 22:49:38 on a totally unrelated note: good night 22:49:40 wikipedia doesn't know 22:49:43 aren't those called web monkeys? 22:49:49 omerta [n=glgomert@201.243.137.4] has joined #lisp 22:49:50 did they suddenly get an upgrade? 22:49:54 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06ee2a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["ook ook"] 22:49:55 why would I require one of those? 22:50:04 I'll just put the whole thing on github 22:50:09 Adlai: That's a nice quote. I'm saving it. 22:50:10 do -you- want to have to deal with the web yourself? 22:50:22 no you don't. Hire someone to do it for you. Let -them- go mad. 22:50:24 that is, zero code and just a readme, todo and roadmap 22:50:30 github? 22:51:05 web monkey is something I understand 22:51:09 -!- demmel [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-218-015.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:51:14 Why not just anoncvs and an ftp server for releases? You can always stick a README there. 22:51:19 web coder, never heard of them. Since when do they code the web? 22:51:34 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:52:02 I can also stick a readme on github, and it makes me feel part of the cool young kids: GitHub! Social Coding! 22:52:12 If you compare sourceforge to facebook, github is twitter! 22:52:23 Social Coding in #lisp? I've been away for too long. 22:52:26 or is that out already? 22:52:45 lots of lispers here use github. 22:52:46 dandersen: you suggested anybody use ftp. you /have/ been away for too long. 22:52:46 antifuchs, memo from Adlai: How do I use your asdf-dependency-grovel? 22:52:49 dandersen: go to github.com . "Social Coding" is their motto/subtitle 22:52:53 because github is da shiz. 22:53:09 Adlai: there's a tutorial post on my weblog, but for more involved use cases, I suggest you ask me (: 22:53:10 although it has a nasty habit of ignoring you when you try to push :( 22:53:12 lesbians; they use it 22:53:13 github kicks ass AND chews bubblegum... 22:53:14 KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:14 at the same time! 22:53:23 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:53:24 antifuchs: And yet you said nothing about CVS! 22:53:32 lnostdal: indeed. 22:53:42 I even used rcs... 22:53:51 dandersen: people here still rely on cvs for critical stuff. I can't imagine why 22:53:56 but I do not judge 22:53:57 then cvs, then svn, tla and now... git! 22:54:02 ftp, however, is just unforgivable 22:54:16 antifuchs: sykopomp and I have a project with 14 serial dependencies, and I want to grovel out the dependencies so it's not :serial any more. Should I check your weblog? Link? 22:54:23 Adlai: http://boinkor.net/archives/2007/01/explaining-some-features-of-as.html has an example 22:54:34 hm, I need to get some candles. I'd like to make a little "Yay, darcs is dead!" shrine. 22:54:42 Adlai: holy shit which one? 22:54:50 sykopomp: Sheeple 22:54:54 pft 22:54:55 wuss. 22:55:04 ayrnieu: well, i'm on gentoo, and I needed to get haskell just to install darcs, dammit 22:55:07 Adlai: with 14 components, it's probably not going to buy you much 22:55:22 And what about hg/mercurial? bzr? 22:55:34 -!- jeti [n=jeti@p548EB36C.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 22:55:42 (that is, :serial is probably as fast as non-serial on incremental recompilation) 22:55:43 antifuchs: it's got a packages.lisp, and then a bunch of various utility files which each get used by a few of the main files, and then a bootstrap which basically uses everything 22:56:02 mhm, then it might buy you something 22:56:13 well, go ahead and try it... the tutorial should work 22:56:15 alright, I'll look into it. Thanks. 22:56:21 *Adlai* will try in a bit. Code first. 22:56:23 dandersen: were you by any chance already working on a vi or editor in lisp? 22:56:24 cool (: 22:56:36 So what's with the (: vs :) 22:56:54 Sikander, not everyone here is from the northern hemisphere. 22:56:56 just balancing out everybody's closing smileys 22:57:12 antifuchs: Aha, ok. Carry on 22:57:23 I prefer ^_^ 22:57:33 *Adlai* balances out antifuchs: :) 22:58:06 No doubt the mcclim sources actually defined a function called : 22:58:09 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-100-162.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:58:17 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 22:58:21 Adlai, try the ASDF-DEPENDENCY-GROVEL packaged with XCVB -- it's been updated and somewhat debugged 22:58:57 oho! antifuchs: you going to let that comment fly? 22:59:16 although our final conclusion was that to do things right, we needed a full instrumented CL evaluator that does code coverage instead of heuristics 22:59:26 dandersen: Since you implemented an ex in forth, do you have complete docs on what ex should do? 22:59:27 ah! didn't know you package adg with xcvb 22:59:30 makes a lot of sense (: 22:59:45 Fare: this is of course some trick to get me to download XCVB, right? 22:59:47 antifuchs, we do -- and we use our own git repo based on yours 22:59:53 Adlai, duh, of course! 22:59:58 Adlai: that would be a better version of adg, as I'm pretty sure it has had a lot of edges taken off (: 23:00:06 excellent 23:00:19 more code less groveling! 23:00:31 speaking of full instrumented CL evaluators that do code coverage instead of heuristics... 23:00:41 ... here's sb-cover; off you go 23:00:51 hey hey! 23:00:54 nice (: 23:01:14 Krystof, we were thinking of using that, actually, but too late in the game 23:01:20 Sikander: I have a pretty amateur design model I can look for, if you're interested. 23:01:30 Sikander: It's one of the first programs I wrote. 23:02:03 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 23:02:04 dandersen: I've looked on the web, and found all sorts of ex texts, but I can't seem to find anything that says "An ex must have the following features/functionality". 23:02:11 dandersen: So yes, I'm interested. 23:02:12 Sikander: I was thinking about writing 'ed' in Lisp, but I wrote it in Forth instead. Then I proceeded to write a sucky Forth implementation in Lisp. 23:02:37 dandersen: so what about pascal's ed.lisp? 23:02:39 Krystof: better, have someone (else) come up with a sane way to do AOP-style injection in the interpreter and the compiler (: 23:03:00 Sikander: I didn't know it existed back then. What about it? 23:03:28 dandersen: For now, I'll take that as a decent basis. 23:03:57 dandersen: I'd have to look into cl-ppcre as well, I guess... 23:04:00 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-199-147.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:04:22 Do people sometimes get ,@(when ...) not indented correctly? 23:04:26 that would make life easier 23:04:36 ie, with the &body getting indented like a function's &rest, rather than a macro body 23:04:46 Adlai: indenting in slime is a kludge, often fails 23:04:46 Sikander: I usually have to deal with the issue of me not liking the way other people write programs. I would write it from scratch, seeing as it's not such a big project. But that's just me. 23:05:12 dandersen: What I mean is not to use it as a code base, but to get ideas on how to do certain things. 23:05:16 Sikander: I would suggest you start by learning how to use ed. 23:05:30 Adlai: yes, try insert a space between ,@ and (. 23:05:30 dandersen: I know ed. Have used it many a time 23:05:44 dandersen: ed is cool. 23:05:48 pkhuong: perfect! thank you :) 23:06:06 Sikander: Yeah, of course. Read the code until you understand it so you can get some ideas. I thought you were going to build your vi on top of it. 23:06:33 dandersen: No, of course not! I'm writing my own stuff from scratch! 23:07:00 Sikander: I'm glad there's still people who are capable of and enjoy using ed. =P 23:07:05 dandersen: but for stuff like regex, I'll use cl-ppcre and other existing *good* libraries 23:07:23 dandersen: Have written many a shell script where I use ed, if stream editing is not necessary. 23:07:43 ed begat vi in his madness 23:07:47 and thus we suffer 23:07:52 ed begat ex 23:07:59 ex begat vi 23:08:10 vi vi vi is the editor of the beast 23:08:12 Sikander: Regexp will probably be the toughest thing to write. 23:08:19 emacs had a wild night with vi, and thus vim was born 23:08:23 real programmers write code using gunzip to minimize typing. 23:08:32 Fade: rofl 23:08:33 minion: cl-ppcre for dandersen 23:08:34 butterflies! 23:08:34 dandersen: look at cl-ppcre: CL-PPCRE is a portable, Perl-compatible regular expression library by Edi Weitz. http://www.cliki.net/cl-ppcre 23:08:41 dandersen: exaclty, cl-ppcre! 23:08:50 As pjb said, real men use magnets. Girly men use ed. 23:09:04 Adlai: Yeah, I do know about it. I was agreeing with Sikander. 23:09:08 dandersen: no, real programmers use M-x butterfly 23:09:42 I'm compiling a list of existing libs that are ok to use. cl-ppcre, some alexandria stuff when needed. And this flexi-streams seems to be the way to go, although I don't understand any of it 23:09:50 http://xkcd.com/378/ 23:10:10 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:10:20 Seeing as it's past 1am, I'm going to call it a night. 23:10:35 Sikander: Good luck with your big pet project. 23:10:42 Demosthenes: d'oh emacs! 23:10:48 fe[nl]ix: It throws an error and I'm not sure where is the problem, may I? 23:10:52 :wq 23:10:53 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit ["leaving"] 23:11:10 Well, surprisingly, it's past 1am for me too. 23:12:05 LiamH: I'll try to find out what's going on, but as things stand, defmfun.lisp is a bit too deep for me 23:12:31 Sikander: I figured out where the problem is. 23:12:36 Douglish: what error ? 23:12:38 LiamH: o_O 23:12:39 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-117-28.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:12:42 LiamH: Where?! 23:12:48 I don't have a fix for it yet though. I'm surprised it hasn't bitten before. 23:13:18 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:13:22 LiamH: And you probably don't want to use a temporary workaround, since then the original bug doesn't get fixed... 23:13:23 Sikander: #'actual-class-arglist in init/defmfun-array.lisp. 23:14:01 There's a clause coercing all default args for optional/key to the element type, which is obviously wrong. 23:14:29 But I'm not sure how to get the right information to the right place. 23:14:50 I just tried a fix which turned out to be worse breakage based on a faulty assumption. 23:15:17 fe[nl]ix: I've pasted it: http://paste.lisp.org/display/88863 23:15:21 Well, that's the story of my life. I get involved, and all hell breaks loose :( 23:15:24 Just so you know, the defmfun definitions are the snakepit of GSLL. Scares even me, and I wrote it. 23:16:12 LiamH: I thought it to be an elegant way of defining the foreign funcs... 23:16:13 Douglish: use (funcall (alambda ...) ...) 23:16:14 but I'll figure something out. As I said, I'm surprised this hasn't come up before. 23:16:45 Sikander: It _is_ elegant (if I do say so), provided you don't have to dive in to repair it. 23:16:59 fe[nl]ix: That's a problem, It has to have same behaviour as lambda. 23:17:13 Sikander: Let's say elegant in API, not in internals. 23:17:19 LiamH: Well, I'd love to know when it gets fixed. Meanwhile, I'll continue with the ffts without key and optionals 23:17:26 LiamH: Yes, the api is definately elegant 23:17:44 Sikander: Are you on the mailing list? I'll send an email when it's fixed. 23:17:54 LiamH: I am on the devel list 23:18:08 The only list! Good. 23:18:12 since yesterday *yay* 23:18:26 Well, it's time for me to turn in 23:18:31 I can't promise any timeline, but I'll look at it tonight. 23:18:34 Good night. 23:18:50 LiamH: Sure, I guess you'll fix it when you fix it :) 23:18:57 Goodnight everybody. 23:18:59 *LiamH* codes on, being in UTC-4:00 23:19:13 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Time to die... eh... sleep"] 23:19:24 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@230.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:21:21 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-177-77-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:54 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.83] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:25:36 -!- jenia [n=jenia@modemcable148.172-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:27:36 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:28:24 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 23:28:56 -!- galdor_ [n=galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:29:57 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.183] has joined #lisp 23:32:11 fe[nl]ix: pong. 23:32:32 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@59.167.195.42] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 23:33:26 nyef: does with-static-vector at http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=projects/iolib/static-vectors.git;a=blob;f=src/impl-sbcl.lisp;hb=HEAD#l129 seem ok to you wrt. memory leaks in case of interrupts ? 23:36:07 Yeah, that doesn't look horrible. 23:36:38 Though ISTR an "allow-with-interrupts" thing involved with without-interrupts. Don't know if that's important. 23:36:52 How'd I get to be the expert on this, anyway? 23:37:45 nyef: I remembered you fighting with the monster, if only through minion & cliki. 23:38:20 you're the "expert", in the absence of mega1 and nikodemus :) 23:39:20 is there a way to list all function in the current package 23:39:21 ? 23:40:38 clhs do-symbols 23:40:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_sym.htm 23:42:14 Heh. Okay, I do remember the fd leak on the bots. 23:42:53 But that turned out to mostly not be a race condition, it would leak and fd on -any- failed lookup. 23:43:18 Demosthenes, http://www.cliki.net/rlwrap has a script that generates completions for rlwrap, using DO-ALL-SYMBOLS 23:43:44 is there a library that does hash-consing? 23:45:07 ayrnieu: the idea was to help maintain log5 categories for all functions being defined. 23:45:20 i may make a defun wrapper instead 23:47:47 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:49:44 LiamH pasted "Sikander: default type coercion fixed" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88866 23:50:15 minion: memo for Sikander, fixed bug, see http://paste.lisp.org/display/88866 23:50:15 Remembered. I'll tell Sikander when he/she/it next speaks. 23:51:43 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 23:54:13 *Fare* makes a stupid hash-conser that conses first, then looks up for a previous similar cons in the table 23:54:45 Fare: how about a CAR table and a CDR table? 23:54:55 hmmm, no, that's no good either 23:54:58 nvm 23:55:32 maybe I want my own prehashed class to distinguish from cons? meh 23:57:38 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 23:58:19 sysfault [n=exalted@m375736d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:32 finally got the threads working, one minor issue, slime seems to have the previous *features* in the fasl file and so causes an error on loading, i can remember creating this particular file and folder, does it happen automatically when starting slime for the first time 23:58:44 i can/i can't 23:59:08 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 23:59:32 Fare: extensible hash table tests. 23:59:56 But you really want EQ hashing, and that's hard to get portably. mm..