00:01:38 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 00:02:39 -!- h3 [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:02:50 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 00:03:17 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:03:44 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:24 redb1ue [i=star@ppp219.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:06:41 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:51 *Guthur* finds lispbuilder-sdl 00:08:00 i think that will have to do 00:08:48 Guthur: Vecto [http://www.xach.com/lisp/vecto/] 00:10:43 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 00:12:13 antoszka thanks, but its for an interactive game, not just rasterization 00:13:09 -!- galdor [n=galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:14:00 umm now can i get input... 00:14:26 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:14:40 -!- mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6D81C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:15:28 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["Segmentation Fault"] 00:16:31 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 00:17:09 mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6D81C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:30 -!- mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6D81C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:18:01 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 00:20:25 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-wyhzioifekoioeyg] has left #lisp 00:20:46 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:21:20 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 00:21:42 mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6D81C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:38 umm this isn't going to be easy 00:25:09 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.188.152] has joined #lisp 00:26:08 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 00:28:41 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:31:40 is it easy to call python from lisp? 00:32:10 Guthur: Google it, I think there have been some efforts to write FFI wrappers. 00:32:41 I'm still getting this weird error from SBCL 00:32:57 are there any sbcl/asdf wizards around? 00:33:30 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 00:33:34 SBCL is saying that I'm redefining a struct, when I'm not redefining it. 00:34:08 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:34:27 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 00:34:30 what are you doing to it instead? 00:34:38 defining it once, near the top of the file. 00:34:56 when SBCL reaches the end of compiling the file (I can tell by the output at the repl), it gives this error. 00:35:22 it mentions one slot specifically as being incompatible with the old definition 00:35:30 there's only one definition, though... :\ 00:36:03 you get that on a fresh lisp? 00:36:04 I've deleted fasls, too. 00:36:07 yeah 00:36:35 the name of this struct is a symbol internal to a new package, so it shouldn't be conflicting with anythnig build-in 00:36:50 also, I don't get this error (not even a warning about it) from CCL or CLISP. 00:37:00 super wacky 00:37:53 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.192.201] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 00:37:54 i want to see it! 00:38:16 Xach: Feel like pulling Sheeple from github? No dependencies. 00:38:25 the relevant file is src/objects.lisp 00:38:25 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 00:38:45 http://github.com/adlai/sheeple/tree/maps/src/objects.lisp is the file 00:39:31 Xach: SBCL warns about the MOLD struct getting redefined. 00:39:40 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 00:41:14 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:46:51 i can't even get that to compile in asdf due to warnings 00:47:08 Asserted type LIST conflicts with derived type (VALUES SIMPLE-VECTOR &OPTIONAL). 00:47:09 Xach: yes, there are warnings, that's a development branch 00:47:18 ah, maybe I haven't pushed that fix yet :) 00:47:19 -!- dkcl` [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:47:22 sorry.. 00:47:29 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:48:06 -!- seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:48:09 boo 00:48:26 *Xach* gives up 00:48:39 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 00:48:49 stepnem_ [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 00:49:29 Xach: wait! With this commit, it compiles (with some warnings, yes) on CCL and CLISP. 00:49:31 -!- stepnem_ is now known as stepnem 00:49:48 they're not critical, though -- ie, the compilation runs without throwing to the debugger. 00:49:55 except for SBCL with this struct. 00:50:09 how the hell do i get that commit? 00:50:45 using the clone url i don't even see the mold stuff. 00:50:46 oh 00:50:57 `git pull origin molds" 00:51:09 eh, maps 00:51:12 the branch name is maps 00:51:21 fatal: not a git repository 00:51:34 Xach: in the directory of the clone? 00:51:48 ah, ok. that worked. 00:52:07 the latest commit should be 038c4a9 00:54:48 please don't try actually running the tests... Sheeple is in a very transitional period right now, and dies catastrophically on hierarchy conflicts. 00:54:49 -!- mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6D81C.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 00:55:31 Adlai: i think the problem is compile time vs load time. 00:55:45 Xach: how so? 00:55:51 Adlai: also the type (QUOTE (LIST-OF TRANSITIONS)) 00:56:23 Adlai: i think you meant just (LIST-OF TRANSITIONS) 00:56:43 when i remove the ' it works fine. 00:56:50 -!- ol3```` [n=user@82.113.121.159] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:57:01 ol3```` [n=user@82.113.121.159] has joined #lisp 00:57:20 *Adlai* is a goddamn fool for not trying that. 00:57:38 Xach: my question now would be, why does that cause a problem 00:58:00 and of course, thank you for your trouble checking out the "bug" :) 00:58:02 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:58:15 Adlai: i'm not firmly sure and i don't really want to go spec-spelunking, but defstruct has certain compile-time side effects and certain load-time side effects, and i think maybe the bogus type caused a conflict there. 00:58:42 Adlai: it's similar to defconstant in sbcl, where it has some effect at compile time and it's checked for EQL-ness at load time too. 00:58:55 It's odd that this didn't choke on other lisps, though... I know that CCL is fuzzier about the different times, though. 00:59:31 Xach: I'm crediting you as the committer for this fix 01:01:17 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.85] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:01:56 you have now made your mark on Sheeple! http://bit.ly/1oGU3a 01:03:46 ephcon [n=ephcon@c-24-63-201-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:07 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:04:41 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:06:41 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229241218.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 01:09:22 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-241.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 01:11:38 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has quit [] 01:11:56 ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 01:26:50 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:27:27 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 01:27:31 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-73-155.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:03 -!- ol3```` [n=user@82.113.121.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:29:38 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:38:54 -!- ephcon [n=ephcon@c-24-63-201-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:39:39 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 01:42:43 ephcon [n=ephcon@c-24-63-201-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:11 fe[nl]ix: Do you recommend the static vector approach over vector-sap and with-pinned-objects? 01:50:06 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:50:33 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 01:55:13 -!- ephcon [n=ephcon@c-24-63-201-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:59:01 rakzom [n=Antoine@brc29-2-88-162-39-86.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:12 ephcon [n=ephcon@c-24-63-201-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:46 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 02:05:49 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 02:05:51 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:09:03 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-180-249-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:12:07 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:12:40 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 02:14:13 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-72-66-64-165.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:44 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:23:48 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:25:38 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:29:20 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 02:29:26 Greetings. 02:30:41 Are there instances where mutual recursion is the only solution, or can most/all algorithms implemented with mutually recursive functions be implemented otherwise? 02:32:06 <_3b> presumably you could translate it to a state machine and a user-level stack, but at that point you are probably in turing tarpit territory 02:33:00 peddie [n=peddie@c-67-180-249-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:07 If you just load a file with mutually recursive function definitions, you'll receiving a warning about an undefined function, but if the file is compiled, there won't be a warning, correct? 02:35:34 <_3b> possibly, not sure that is specified anywhere 02:35:47 That is my concern with mutual recursion, I'm anal retentive about warnings. 02:35:48 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:36:15 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:36:17 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 02:37:09 <_3b> i'd expect any lisp that bothered to complain about it to be smart enough to wait until the end of the file 02:37:19 It's a non-issue, but it's a good example to use to understand comile/load/eval. 02:41:16 <_3b> dunno that that is really compile vs load/eval 02:41:35 -!- ravster [n=user@CPE000c41a8878f-CM00195efb5296.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:41:36 <_3b> more that there is no WITH-LOAD-UNIT to go with WITH-COMPILATION-UNIT :) 02:42:04 <_3b> implementations could presumably implement the same feature for LOADing 02:43:56 Ok, I have an example file I'm going to experiment with, see if I understand what is going on. 02:50:24 Hmm, neither compile nor load complained. 02:52:41 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:52:41 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:52:54 ASau [n=user@83.237.167.118] has joined #lisp 02:52:57 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 02:53:16 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:57:10 -!- ASau [n=user@83.237.167.118] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:57:36 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 02:59:50 Good morning. 03:01:11 Hey beach. 03:01:45 hello all 03:01:58 Hello Adlai 03:04:07 tmh: labels :) 03:04:31 pkhuong: Yeah, I thought about that, you can do mutual recursion with labels? 03:04:51 Or just use labels to avoid it? 03:04:55 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442868.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:05:54 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-73-155.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:06:38 Hmm, "non-empty buffer when EOF reached while reading from child" in sb-ext:run-program. 03:07:02 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.56.152.209] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:07:37 deepfire: bad external format, iirc. 03:08:13 pkhuong, sorry, failed to mention this -- yes, this is a nested error, and the parent is a UTF8 decode failure. 03:09:13 tmh: labels allows recursion 03:09:30 (and mutual recursion) 03:10:59 Yeah, Just read this -> "the scope of the defined function names for labels encompasses the function definitions themselves" says nothing about order. 03:11:25 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 03:12:15 I'm pedantic about function order in a file, defining top to bottom. It appears that is not necessary. I need to relax that a little. 03:13:05 pkhuong, the only pecularity I have with this, is that :output is NIL 03:13:11 Anyone here use testing framework nst? 03:13:52 pkhuong, which I choose to interpret as "please, I have /no/ desire to have /anything/ to do with any output this produces" 03:15:19 Unfortunately, SBCL apparently wants to decode output as UTF8, before sinking it into the void, so that void is not left unimpressed by SBCL's scrupulousness.. 03:16:07 deepfire: does the problem go away if you specify latin-1 as the external format? 03:16:13 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:01 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:21:14 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 03:22:43 Hmm, there's something very weird about sb-ext:run-program.. 03:23:04 sbcl --noinform --eval "(sb-ext:run-program #p\"/bin/dd\" '(\"if=/dev/urandom\" \"bs=124\" \"count=1\") :output t)" --eval '(sb-ext:quit)' hangs 03:23:31 strace of dd shows it iterating infinitely with write syscall being restarted 03:23:43 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:23:44 31.32 03:24:08 Is this a bug? 03:24:53 As to your question.. 03:26:25 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@88.73.235.222] has joined #lisp 03:29:05 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 03:29:05 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:29:15 -!- ephcon [n=ephcon@c-24-63-201-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:29:15 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:21 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 03:31:29 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@88.73.196.251] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:32:16 No, setting LANG and LC_ALL to C doesn't help, and yes (stream-external-format *standard-output*) is :ascii 03:32:48 deepfire: ASCII isn't latin-1 03:33:11 ephcon [n=ephcon@c-24-63-201-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:56 Argh, sorry. So I need to pass a manually created stream to run-program? 03:34:19 No other way to have a latin-1, I guess. 03:35:20 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:39 good evening 03:35:56 Bang! Sorry, I was collecting output into a string stream. Shame on me. 03:36:37 IOW, :output wasn't nil, in the end. 03:37:15 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-222-139.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:19 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 03:38:03 I'm making an awful lot of missteps. 03:42:19 Hmm, is there way to have a latin-1 string output stream? 03:44:03 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:44:28 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 03:46:00 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-129-134.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:48:30 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 03:49:51 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 03:51:37 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:51:42 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust936.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:52:53 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:57:11 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:57:34 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:01:21 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 04:02:00 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:02:10 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:06:51 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:07:17 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:12:29 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:12:56 ASau [n=user@83.237.167.118] has joined #lisp 04:15:52 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 04:20:39 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:40 fusss pasted "slime weirdness" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88722 04:21:41 it's really painful to have emacs/slime broken on two platforms 04:21:57 at this point i am thinking hardware or OS failure 04:23:20 rares [n=rares@130.13.176.255] has joined #lisp 04:23:41 the most typical key strokes are crashing emacsen on windows and linux (i am sshing to the linux from the windows) 04:24:11 -!- rares [n=rares@130.13.176.255] has left #lisp 04:25:34 -!- Madsy^ is now known as Madsy 04:26:00 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 04:27:26 fuck it, time to roll back last night's Windows update .. or get a real machine. i am just hoping it's not the laptop freaking out on me :-( 04:29:49 -!- ASau [n=user@83.237.167.118] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:30:09 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:33:14 -!- roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [] 04:41:14 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:47:54 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bxptfwcbwnjlauud] has joined #lisp 04:49:32 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-167-76.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:53 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:52:08 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:54:17 ASau [n=user@83.237.167.118] has joined #lisp 04:58:20 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:59:25 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-173.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:03:35 borism [n=boris@195.50.215.32] has joined #lisp 05:04:51 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 05:10:42 -!- xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:11:02 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:11:27 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bxptfwcbwnjlauud] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:13:29 -!- ASau [n=user@83.237.167.118] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:14:00 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:20:42 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 05:20:58 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-173.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:22:29 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-173.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:24:20 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:24:33 for fuzz string matching, would it be stupid to take the levenshtein distance of their corresponding soundex values? 05:25:35 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:51 -!- Axioplase_ [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit ["brb"] 05:25:57 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 05:26:44 i feel like there should be some kind of threshold; the lev-distance should be less than the length of the shorter string 05:27:19 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:27:36 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 05:28:12 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-180-249-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:30:22 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-173.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:30:47 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:31:50 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 05:31:54 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-173.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:34:00 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-11-230.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:37:44 hello 05:37:50 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 05:47:44 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@222-154-177-217.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:51:56 -!- borism [n=boris@195.50.215.32] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:55:12 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442868.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 05:57:16 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:57:37 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:01:26 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:02:21 emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 06:02:28 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-173.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:02:56 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:05:14 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.88.148] has joined #lisp 06:12:12 aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has joined #lisp 06:13:55 -!- redb1ue [i=star@ppp219.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:14:25 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 06:17:12 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:21:33 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:22:13 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:25:01 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99.58.1.192] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:37:56 what's the preferred way of dealing processing initargs before they are stored in a new instance? I have been doing a custom shared-initialized: (defmethod shared-initialize ((obj my-class) &rest initargs &key maybe-string &allow-other-keys) (apply 'call-next-value :maybe-string (string maybe-string) initargs)) 06:39:14 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:39:45 serichsen [n=harleqin@77.6.237.228] has joined #lisp 06:39:49 good morning 06:45:15 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 06:45:16 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:45:50 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:55:20 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:51 how do i run sbcl if i want it to run the background and manually slime-connect to it, instead of having it run the whole time? 06:58:28 section 7.1.1 of the slime manual is it? 06:59:01 fusss: you can find some init scripts that run dwim.hu as a daemon on linux: http://dwim.hu/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=HEAD%20hu.dwim.home;a=summary 06:59:47 the key idea: detach the tty somehow (screen works for that, too), load swank and create a swank server, tunnel it using ssh, connect to it 07:00:02 hmmm 07:00:11 etc/ and bin/ is the key place to look at 07:00:51 for the swank loading/starting part you can find stuff here: http://dwim.hu/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=HEAD%20hu.dwim.build;a=summary 07:00:57 thanks attila_lendvai 07:04:33 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:04:57 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:10:16 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 07:12:48 good morning 07:13:46 morning mvilleneuve 07:13:58 -!- rakzom [n=Antoine@brc29-2-88-162-39-86.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:14:15 splittist [n=dmurray@169-250.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:14:18 morning 07:15:10 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:30 my slime bug is that everything works in editor buffers, but broken in *slime-repl* 07:21:41 *slime-repl* is freezing every once in a while 07:22:00 so much so that i can't even switch back to the editor buffer anymore 07:22:37 fusss: if you have a stuck asdf load-op (that has a with-compilation-unit) then certain operations get stuck on sbcl's *wrold-lock* 07:22:50 C-g brings out emacs from the hang 07:22:58 not compilation 07:23:22 attila_lendvai: C-f asks me if i want to kill emacs and dump core! 07:23:48 that's broken beyond hope 07:24:09 i am just gzipping my working directory atm and moving everything back to win32 LW 07:24:25 23.0.91.1 and head + a bunch of patches from us works here 07:24:32 i mean slime head 07:24:40 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:07 i am running slime head too .. 07:26:07 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:26:34 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:26:48 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:27:04 no worries, i will test on my other unix boxes and if all fails will back up everything and do fresh VM reset 07:27:11 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.54.66] has joined #lisp 07:27:18 needed an excuse to move to fedora anyway 07:30:10 -!- lpolzer_ is now known as lpolzer 07:30:23 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:30:27 drafael [n=tapio@118.90.133.41] has joined #lisp 07:30:37 -!- drafael [n=tapio@118.90.133.41] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:30:39 good morning 07:31:27 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:32:06 hey lpolzer 07:33:32 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:37:47 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-8-173.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:39:19 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:40:24 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:40:30 drafael [n=tapio@118.90.133.41] has joined #lisp 07:40:30 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-70-58.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:40:35 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 07:40:39 -!- drafael [n=tapio@118.90.133.41] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:40:39 Good morning 07:41:30 drafael [n=tapio@118.90.133.41] has joined #lisp 07:41:33 -!- drafael [n=tapio@118.90.133.41] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:43:37 Yo spiaggia 07:43:53 nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has joined #lisp 07:43:53 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:43:58 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.129] has joined #lisp 07:44:09 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:45:07 anyone have experience working with iolib? 07:45:13 drafael [n=tapio@118.90.133.41] has joined #lisp 07:45:42 -!- drafael [n=tapio@118.90.133.41] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:46:30 drafael [n=tapio@118.90.133.41] has joined #lisp 07:46:33 -!- drafael [n=tapio@118.90.133.41] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:46:49 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:47:15 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:47:33 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:48:16 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.220.44] has joined #lisp 07:48:16 drafael [n=tapio@118.90.133.41] has joined #lisp 07:48:28 -!- drafael [n=tapio@118.90.133.41] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:49:09 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:46 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.54.66] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:54:58 gonzojive: iolib works great for me, fe[nl]ix, the author is responsive 07:54:58 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:55:22 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:56:15 attila_lendvai: do you use it for sockets? I became interested when I started looking into so-called c10k servers that can handle 100,000 simultaneous connections 07:58:45 iolib seems to provide epoll and other weird unix calls for implementing a server that can handle all those simultaneous requests. i'm not sure how much of that must be implemented by the user, and how much is implemented by iolib itself 07:59:22 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.110] has joined #lisp 07:59:31 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:59:44 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:00:04 gonzojive: i have a proof of concept http server that uses delimited call/cc for connection multiplexing based on iolib 08:00:42 this is the http server that i'll turn into that eventually: http://dwim.hu/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=HEAD%20hu.dwim.wui;a=summary 08:01:01 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 08:01:10 *attila_lendvai* looks up that iolib branch and puts it up at http://dwim.hu/gitweb/gitweb.cgi 08:01:21 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:01:23 it's most probably bitrotten though 08:01:34 emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-11-230.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:02:05 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:57 When might a "dysfunctional" language be "the right tool for the job"? 08:03:09 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 08:04:00 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:04:11 without this connection multiplexing, wui currently serves around 3000 req/sec on a test where a request parameter is rendered back in a http page with proper escaping. although only up to 50-100 simultaneous requests (number of linux worker threads...) 08:04:23 on my dual core laptop 08:07:21 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:14:11 -!- nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:16:28 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:16:40 -!- emacspha` [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:16:42 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:16:59 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:20:29 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:21:02 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 08:21:17 lichtblau [n=user@77-22-106-8-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:23:01 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 08:24:52 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:31:44 galdor_ [n=galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:54 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:34:07 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:39:46 tcr: I thought xcvb has stronger requirements 08:40:02 BICBW, I haven't tried it yet 08:40:38 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229071164.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:42:59 Why stronger? 08:43:26 the eval-when :compile-tl is needed to store the function definition in the resulting cfasl 08:43:48 usually only the cfasls are loaded for depended files 08:44:10 if a file only contains compile-time stuff, it can just write out a normal .fasl and load that 08:44:24 (I haven't looked at XCVB either) 08:46:15 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:48:52 ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 08:49:29 -!- smackarang [n=user@91.190.137.166] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:49:45 smackarang [n=user@91.190.137.166] has joined #lisp 08:50:21 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0D44.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:56:36 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.88.148] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:56:50 benny [n=benny@i577A0D44.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:56:50 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:57:06 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.88.148] has joined #lisp 08:57:13 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:01:32 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.55.115] has joined #lisp 09:01:32 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:01:49 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:03:24 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:54 xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:07:54 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:10:25 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:12:32 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 09:14:20 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88.149.210.235] has quit ["Valete!"] 09:15:52 -!- ArtVandalae [n=SuperUnk@220-253-38-251.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:16:46 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 09:18:03 lpolzer: ping 09:18:15 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:18:31 sykopomp, pong 09:18:43 lpolzer: I just ran into this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/88725 09:18:55 kudos. I'm having trouble holding back my glee :) 09:19:00 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:19:52 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:19:58 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:09 sykopomp, you're late 09:21:22 :( 09:21:24 sykopomp, this has already been reported and fixed in the latest head :) 09:21:40 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:21:40 but yeah, it's not released yet. 09:21:43 wait, what's been fixed?... 09:21:51 arch=any packages 09:21:56 ah yeah 09:21:58 I wasn't referring to that. 09:22:15 I didn't get it then... 09:22:20 I didn't know it would actually call up a restart there. It put a smile on my face, that's all. 09:22:34 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["leaving"] 09:22:57 oh, so it was restart praise instead of a bug report? 09:23:04 yes. 09:23:10 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:23:11 I see the title now 09:23:36 sweet :) 09:24:00 if you like those restarts try installing a package that has file conflicts with the latest head 09:24:11 you get about six choices :) 09:24:16 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:24:20 that's totally a killer feature, if you ask me. 09:24:43 I agree, interactivity is a great thing 09:24:57 and with CL restarts it's not much work to code it up 09:25:07 it's hard sometimes to justify the use of lisp, but between the performance and improved interactivity, you're really taking advantage of it -- not just being a fanboy :P 09:25:35 why thanks :) I do feel that with paktahn I'm onto something 09:25:42 CL pieces fell nicely into place there 09:25:55 and once the ecl port works we should also have a good binary size 09:26:11 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-177-63.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:26:21 why not clisp? 09:26:41 oh, I guess threading 09:27:01 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 09:28:00 we could work around clisp's missing thread support (it's not needed in pak right now anyway) 09:28:13 it's just that no one has volunteered to do a clisp port so far 09:28:24 clisp got threads 09:28:29 sort of 09:28:31 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:28:37 not any less than ecl 09:28:42 it got "oh god it's so buggy and impossible to build" threads, which may or may not count. 09:28:48 is the case the same for ecl, then? 09:29:16 I didn't manage to get their swank backends to use threads for both 09:29:21 few months back 09:30:14 I don't know much about the state of ecl's thread support, but I know that clisp's support for them is quite experimental 09:30:47 anyway, this really boils down to if someone's willing to do the port 09:30:52 threads are a non-issue for paktahn 09:31:08 /me has managed to build a win32 threaded ecl, but chickened out and decided not to use it. ecl's build is usually a bit fragile. 09:33:50 sykopomp, should you have some time and mood for paktahn I'd be happy to point you at smaller features you could hack 09:34:40 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:35:00 lpolzer: I'll probably be able to start playing around with it late next week. Adlai's been working on that CCL port which I'm thinking of taking a look at. 09:35:15 making the build process for pak a little more sane might also be nice. 09:35:26 I've been thinking about xcvb 09:35:42 I'm not sure you quite need xcvb for something this big 09:35:51 lpolzer: Did you see http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/sequence-iterators.html already? 09:36:46 sykopomp, xcvb is neat with Makefile support, modularity and all 09:36:52 sykopomp, would you rather suggest asdf? 09:37:18 asdf would probably be the first thing I would try, yes. 09:37:34 tcr, thank you! I took a look at the project page some time after it got registered but there was nothing there yet 09:37:47 tcr, so now I can take a look at sequence iterators 09:37:59 tcr, I'm quite curious about them 09:38:05 mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6D81C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:18 xcvb is more for very large systems, and you can certainly write makefiles that take care of starting lisp, doing a simple load-op, and dumping an image. 09:38:28 lpolzer: It's not prime-time yet. I hope to do a release at sunday. 09:38:31 sykopomp, either xcvb or asdf (or both, even) would be fine with me 09:38:33 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 09:38:54 sykopomp, paktahn slowly gets to a point where LOAD doesn't quite cut it anymore 09:39:23 sykopomp, too many warnings about stuff being undefined due to the load order make you lose the real warnings :( 09:39:36 heh 09:39:58 -!- aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:40:18 I'm sprinting to get one of my projects presentable by next tuesday, but I'll have time once this nightmare's over. Some basic reorganizing of file + asdf would probably go a long way for paktahn. 09:41:08 that'll probably make any serious port attempts much easier, to boot. 09:41:22 tcr, are you going to put up a CDR for that? 09:41:26 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.88.148] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:42:06 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.88.148] has joined #lisp 09:42:06 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:42:24 sykopomp, how do you think will it make porting easier? 09:42:32 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:42:39 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@222-154-177-217.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:42:56 the code will be easier to browse, and dependencies will be more obvious. It'll be easier to "just" build it and start hacking on it, too. 09:43:25 not to mention, using REQUIRE is a bit non-portable ;) 09:43:30 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 09:43:59 tcr, another question: will mapping functions also be part of the API? I generally prefer a more functional style. or is this just barebones, and people are encouraged to build on it? 09:44:45 sykopomp, yes the REQUIRE forms are a sign of a hidden asdf dep ;) 09:45:38 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.88.148] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:48:59 ol3```` [n=user@82.113.106.155] has joined #lisp 09:50:09 lpolzer: that does not have anything to do with extensible sequences, it's just a library to make it convenient to write functions that operate on CL sequences (lists + vectors) 09:50:10 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:50:29 lpolzer: As such it's a layer above a extensible sequence-iterator protocol 09:50:38 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:51:03 tcr, ah I see what you're getting at now 09:51:16 ricree [n=rareed@c-67-184-13-36.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:23 lpolzer: that package as such will not define actual sequence functions, but I'm thinking of providing another package which does that. 09:51:25 no more typecase dispatching for cl sequences 09:51:51 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/session] has joined #lisp 09:52:17 yeah, and it's really quite fast. Depending on how much sbcl's sequences functions are optimized, it almost comes equal to about 2x as slow 09:58:08 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nutxsfovbzidohvv] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:59:24 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:59:24 -!- udzinari [n=user@195.212.29.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:59:25 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:59:44 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:00:25 bah, you guys 10:00:33 I know tcr knows about sbcl's sequences anyway 10:00:53 and I know I haven't addressed his concern about them because it's somewhere in my piles of email 10:01:38 but still, you shouldn't be doing typecase dispatch in any case: it will break on any of my lovely sequences 10:01:48 (which turn out to be useful in a labour-saving kind of way) 10:02:05 Xof: Not at all. I do (etypecase foo (list ...) (vector ...) (sequence ..)) 10:02:37 I'm really concerned to be mostly orthogonal to your efforts 10:02:49 sure 10:03:59 The only problem I can think of (modulo subtle issues) is that I took your make-sequence-like and turned into a defun and typecase on list and vectors only 10:04:05 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit ["leaving"] 10:04:13 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-tjyvdjqglzpvcjdm] has joined #lisp 10:04:41 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.88.148] has joined #lisp 10:04:49 I probably should conditionalize, and actually export sb-sequences:make-sequence-like on sbcl 10:06:22 tcr: really really dumb question, but in your map-into-subseq, why don't you just do &key (key #'identity)? 10:07:44 probably because passing :key nil is legal 10:11:31 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:11:40 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-tjyvdjqglzpvcjdm] has left #lisp 10:11:48 -!- asksol [n=ask@213.236.208.22] has quit [] 10:11:51 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:13:27 trompette [n=bob@marmite.ath.cx] has joined #lisp 10:13:48 -!- trompette [n=bob@marmite.ath.cx] has left #lisp 10:16:23 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 10:18:43 this doesn't seem to be valid syntax: (defun foo () #+foo #+bar t) 10:18:46 can anyone explain? 10:19:02 assume that both foo and bar are not in *features* 10:19:38 <_3b> #+ tries to read a form to ignore, so that tries to read 2 forms, but hits ) first 10:19:43 lpolzer: #+(or foo bar) syntax is there for a reason i suppose. 10:20:06 lpolzer: #+(and foo bar) too 10:20:08 yes, but that's not my question 10:20:21 (merge-pathnames #P"/foo/bar/" #P"test/file.txt") => #P"/foo/bar/file.txt", but I'd expect /foo/bar/test/file.txt 10:20:27 what's the proper way to concatenate pathnames? 10:20:43 lpolzer: _3b has answered your question 10:20:49 (defun foo () #+foo(do-this) #+bar(do-that) t), as _3b said. 10:21:03 Xof, thanks, I missed that. 10:21:19 mishoo: (merge-pathnames foo bar) merges bar into foo. 10:21:23 _3b, thank you 10:21:32 mishoo: swap the args. 10:21:53 damn, that works :-) 10:21:54 Xach: thanks 10:27:33 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:29:32 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-109-57.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:29:32 ecl question: how do you get a proper backtraces that shows more than si:bytecodes? 10:29:42 I asked that months ago on their list but forgot :( 10:32:00 borism [n=boris@195.50.215.32] has joined #lisp 10:37:16 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:37:28 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:39:26 -!- ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:39:28 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-129-134.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 10:41:32 I hoping to make an interactive GUI for a lisp program, the only applicable libs i could find were clois-lane for input and Lispbuilder-SDL for the graphics, anyone have any experience of them? 10:42:00 clois-lane in particular looks rather sketchy in the support, am i going to have dig in CFFI and do my own 10:42:10 LTK seems like a mostly-reasonable library for writing simple GUIs 10:42:23 there are also QT bindings, and McCLIM 10:42:23 Guthur: What about mcclim? 10:42:39 is it not just text windows 10:42:47 i need bitmap graphics 10:43:52 Guthur: ltk can display bitmaps in widgets, apparently. 10:44:49 sykopomp, umm that might be enough, i don't need anything to fancy, transparency would be nice though 10:44:52 i'll go check 10:46:22 doh i must check things better, there is clones, its games made with McClim, and seems good enough 10:46:39 cheers, emacs-dwim, and sykopomp 10:46:48 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:47:04 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:49:02 ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 10:49:19 borism_ [n=boris@195.50.215.64] has joined #lisp 10:51:28 GNU LIBRARY GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE? is that GPL just? 10:51:28 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:51:50 Guthur: what? That's the LGPL. What about it? 10:52:07 the L usually stands for lesser i thought 10:52:26 it used to be called Library GPL 10:52:43 ok so it is LGPL then? 10:52:48 yes. 10:53:17 sorry i didn't actually read the whole thing to check, they can be quite long and boring those license things 10:53:29 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-104-232.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:54:58 -!- borism [n=boris@195.50.215.32] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:55:09 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:54 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.88.148] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 10:55:54 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:56:11 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:57:32 umm it seems it becomes known as Lesser GPL at version 2.1, learnt something knew 11:03:48 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-177-63.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:04:37 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fxkknxvlqbufsyay] has joined #lisp 11:05:09 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fxkknxvlqbufsyay] has quit [Client Quit] 11:06:09 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@203.110.238.16] has joined #lisp 11:12:09 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.55.115] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:12:17 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:14:10 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [] 11:15:03 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.55.115] has joined #lisp 11:19:10 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 11:19:40 ol3````` [n=user@82.113.121.149] has joined #lisp 11:22:00 -!- dv___ [n=dv@85-127-109-82.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:22:00 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:22:17 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:22:25 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:24:37 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-72-66-64-165.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 11:34:02 -!- ol3```` [n=user@82.113.106.155] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:35:15 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@203.110.238.16] has left #lisp 11:38:34 Brucio-8 [n=Brucio-8@BAA4e64.baa.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 11:38:34 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:38:34 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:38:54 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:42:08 -!- teilzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@p579154C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:44:30 teilzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@p579154C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:48 -!- Brucio-8 [n=Brucio-8@BAA4e64.baa.pppool.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:50:46 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:49 Fare: hi! in alexandria's build.xcvb, what's the point of a first #+xcvb? incidentally there, or there's something i can't see? 11:54:33 Yes and no 11:54:33 Fare, memo from attila_lendvai: if xcvb's doc was in a wiki, i would have fixed a small typo just now. ("so you didn't use to need an eval-when around functions that...") 11:54:38 It's more of a colloquialism. 11:54:47 In XCVB as it is, it can be removed. 11:55:10 attila_lendvai, it's not a wiki, but it's in git. Dunno if that makes it better. 11:55:10 oh, i see, there's an operation that can de-xcvb-ize anything, right? 11:57:08 well, git should work, although a bit heavyweight for typos... but then wiki's are spammed... 11:58:13 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DD13.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:30 yes 11:58:52 wiki's are spammed, and the result not automatically reflected in the official doc 11:59:02 unless you want to make the wiki the official doc 11:59:14 well, it only makes sense if the wiki is the official doc 12:00:01 is there a wiki on cl.net? 12:00:55 quick poll: should i struggle keeping hu.dwim.walker (cl-walker) low on dependencies, anybody in need for a cl code walker with almost zero deps? or just depend on contextl and hu.dwim.def as there are no external uisers of it anyway? 12:01:39 currently i'm fooling with lambda's in slots in a special var, as opposed to a few define-layered-method 12:02:08 Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has joined #lisp 12:02:21 does cl-walker include a call/cc interpreter like arnesi's? Or is that packaged on top? 12:02:32 on top 12:02:40 hu.dwim.delico 12:03:05 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:11 i do need the contextl dep, though 12:03:13 I understand that arnesi itself is pretty unmaintained, is it? 12:03:28 attila_lendvai, as long as you make it easy to install deps, that's ok 12:03:32 which moves it away from a mere :use :common-lisp already... 12:04:22 not much live around arnesi, no 12:04:25 can you layer the contextl walking in a plugin package? 12:04:31 but unmaintained is a bit strong 12:04:46 i could, but it's too much effort 12:05:10 i could hide it behind a macro, but... 12:05:44 i think i'll just depend on def, contextl, and draw one more line to the entry in the TODO: "make installing deps easy" :) 12:07:10 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 12:07:57 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:08:10 Fare, have you took a glance at desire? 12:08:25 AHA! I know why my clbuild no longer works: common-lisp.net seems to refuse cvs checkouts. Does anyone know why? 12:08:48 er, no sorry, false alarm. 12:09:18 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 12:09:38 demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-070-085.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:42 hi 12:09:51 OK, what would be another reason why clbuild would hang in "cvs co flexichain"? 12:10:57 Can i hash an object on identity? is there something built into CL? sxhash returns a hash that the same for equal objects. I want something thats the same only for eq objects. like a memory address. 12:11:54 -!- arbscht_ is now known as arbscht 12:12:04 spiaggia: ssh or pserver? What does "ps aux | grep cvs" say? 12:12:25 demmel: (make-hash-table :test 'eq) 12:12:42 oh, that's not exaclty what you asked for... 12:12:55 lichtblau: pserver 12:13:29 lichtblau: I think it's the Wifi provider that blocks it. 12:13:51 I'll try with a cable instead. 12:14:04 attila_lendvai: oh. I dont want a hash table. Just the hash for logging purposes. 12:14:34 attila_lendvai: for identifying eq objects in the log 12:14:48 deepfire, I read the documentation 12:15:15 demmel: you can not have that for example with sbcl, because it has a copying gc and it does not keep track of an id like jvm's do 12:15:35 deepfire, I'd like to see some kind of unification of efforts between desire, libcl, clbuild, etc. -- or else you're gonna burn out like the mudballs guy. 12:15:50 [Jackal] [n=Jackal@118.95.53.83] has joined #lisp 12:16:04 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:16:05 demmel: although having a global object->id eq hashtable helps with that (the gc updates identity based hashtables) 12:16:36 lichtblau: That was it. Thanks! 12:17:48 attila_lendvai: Oh i see. I might have to go with that hashtable. Thanks 12:19:30 roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 12:20:15 francogrex [n=user@219.54-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 12:20:23 you can make the hash-table that "keeps track of identity" be handled by the GC via the :weakness argument to make-hash-table btw., demmel 12:20:30 Hi, please see: http://paste.lisp.org/display/88731 12:20:31 francogrex, memo from Adlai: Krystof pointed out http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/rot.lisp and http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/rc5.lisp 12:20:51 ..so objects that no longer exist will not have their "identity" or id hanging around filling up memory forever 12:21:11 attila_lendvai: So just to understand what eq does (in SBCL). It compares memory adresses, but the gc updates all references when it copies and object? 12:21:38 is there a way to compile this better? 12:21:55 I need to use poisexact function that must be compiled before using 12:21:55 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:22:07 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:22:59 Inostdal: is that sbcl specific. I cant find it in CLHS? 12:23:18 demmel: yes. references, and internal hash table structures... 12:23:58 -!- jyujin__ is now known as jyujin 12:24:10 demmel: there's trivial-garbage that can abstract away the :weakness argument to make-hash-tabel 12:24:21 ...if you want to be platform independent 12:24:40 demmel, it is a common extension provided by many lisp implementation .. see the sbcl manual; http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Hash-Table-Extensions.html#Hash-Table-Extensions .. or yeah, what attila_lendvai says; there are portability layers so stuff will work with both sbcl and ccl etc. 12:24:46 implementations* 12:25:34 konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has joined #lisp 12:25:50 attila_lendvai: But its not implemented with trivial garbage yet? So i can use sbcl extension now, and implement it with trivial garbage later if portability becomes a concern? 12:26:13 -!- francogrex [n=user@219.54-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:26:41 demmel: there's a trivial-garbage:make-hash-table that takes care of normalizing the :weakness argument on various lisps 12:27:25 i'd first just go with sbcl, maybe it turns out to be not the right answer anyway... then why bother with portability 12:28:02 attila_lendvai: A cool. The project allready uses TG 12:29:08 minion: trivial-garbage 12:29:09 trivial-garbage: trivial-garbage is a simple library that provides a portable API to finalizers, weak hash-tables and weak pointers. http://www.cliki.net/trivial-garbage 12:31:08 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:31:57 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:34:17 deepfire, for instance, libcl wants to be able to have a "coherent set" of checkouts at given versions 12:34:34 If your tool can provide that, then you can share tools with libcl 12:35:45 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:40:09 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:44:02 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:45:52 Fare, to burnout, my answer is -- maximise automation, where most effort is spent. 12:46:59 Sounds bold, yes. Maybe tool bold to be true :-) 12:47:37 Hand-picked sets of checkouts would be trivial to implement. 12:48:08 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:48:44 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:48:54 deepfire, for instance, libcl wants to be able to have a "coherent set" of checkouts at given versions 12:49:07 ouch, cut'n'paste error 12:50:29 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2f44.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:30 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:52:30 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:52:55 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-57.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:55:07 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 12:59:51 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:01:34 hadn't looked at xcvb before, but looks quite interesting. Doc implies that asdf doesn't give deterministic builds. What would be an example of that? 13:12:31 wgl, simply changing a file in the middle of the dependency chain and reloading the system will compile the affected subchains in a different environment from that which was present when they were compiled the first time 13:13:38 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.91.245] has joined #lisp 13:13:39 knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has joined #lisp 13:17:26 Ah. And xcvb fixes that. So does it solve the problem of being sure that code that depends on a macro gets properly recompiled when the macro is changed? This would be in a running image, though. It appears that xcvb is targetd to producing executables? 13:18:05 LiamH [n=none@132.250.138.103] has joined #lisp 13:19:05 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@80.187.108.108] has joined #lisp 13:19:47 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:21:32 Sorry, pulled the trigger on that before reading the correct doc file, never mind. 13:25:06 attila_lendvai: (not meant in any way as a criticism) If one was to point a PCL-level lisp programmer (ie. an experienced programmer whose knowledge of lisp was pretty vanilla CLHS/PCL stuff) at the DWIM codebase, what would the set of things they should be aware of up front? I've got DEF, BIND, the #T #F thing, and ITERATE on my list. What am I missing? 13:25:56 (first sentence missing verb. hope meaning clear.) 13:25:58 splittist: i'm semi serious about this, but C-c RET and M-. 13:26:21 *attila_lendvai* leaves soonish 13:26:49 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 13:26:49 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:27:04 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:27:05 attila_lendvai: sure - at some point that'll get you somewhere. But I'd hate to understand the intent of bind from its definition. And the def ioe stuff. But don't feel you need to take the time to answer this (: 13:27:05 if someone is stuck on any of those conventions like de, interate, #t, etc... then they'll be very much stuck with the rest of the codebase 13:27:28 Hah, using my sequence-iterators, it's not only straight-forward to write a split-sequence (took me 15mins), it's also more efficient than the upstream version 13:27:31 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:27:48 splittist: if someone knows mvb, dsb, and let, then looking at a bind should make it pretty obvious what it's about 13:28:08 maybe a few C-c RET when they meet things the very first time 13:28:28 tcr: now do this with my tokenizer (which is really naggum-split-sequence), pls. :) 13:28:57 i've got an optimized split-sequence somewhere... it just doesn't have a repo, so that code is pretty lost... 13:29:07 michaelw: what does it do? 13:29:56 tcr: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/14c1561d3a33bea1 13:30:00 tcr: http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/lisp/tokenizer.lisp 13:31:00 attila_lendvai: sure. I'm not saying any of this stuff isn't clear - it just seems it would be more efficient to say to someone up front 'DEF is for this; BIND is for that; #t, #f is for the other; ITERATE does loops in this way - now go for it.' That way they could get through the first screen without M-.-ing. Please note I'm not saying YOU should do any of this! 13:31:01 does anyone know of any standardized language which defines as part of that standard an operating-system interface? 13:31:02 tcr: handles escapes, for a start 13:31:23 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 13:31:45 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.44.98] has joined #lisp 13:31:48 Xof: C#, *maybe*? 13:32:11 michaelw: funnily enough I dreamed about something like that today 13:32:12 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.91.245] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:32:36 pkhuong: C# is a standardized language? 13:32:38 Xof: C++ 13:32:44 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 13:32:47 pkhuong: i'm *pretty sure* C# the language is not bundled with the libraries... 13:33:01 mvilleneuve: there is an ecma standard. 13:33:02 the c# language is an ECMA and ISO standard 13:33:19 *michaelw* adds to resume: "I can make dreams come true before they are even dreamt." :) 13:33:44 I thought of it as a generalized parse-csv 13:34:14 tcr: that's what it is, essentially. Or can be abused for, FWIW. 13:34:32 Xof: what counts as an OS interface? File I/O? 13:34:46 it's a little underspecified wrt. overlaps in separators, etc. 13:35:08 splittist: we may put together something like that. i'm planning to spend some time extending the content on dwim.hu... 13:35:09 splittist: good question; as ever, the boundaries are fluid 13:35:10 *attila_lendvai* is gone 13:35:30 michaelw: Shouldn't be hard to adapt that, (next-item) is basically an iterator 13:35:42 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 13:35:56 let's say directory creation and removal as the benchmark 13:36:12 fe[nl]ix: what do you mean by C++? 13:36:14 as I build xcvb typing 'make install' somehow it cant find sb-posix. using version 1.0.30 of sbcl. compiling driver.lisp under slime does not complain. 13:36:59 tcr: yes, I wrote it with that in mind. there's also unread-item, though. Iterators usually don't support that 13:37:31 Xof: Ada has stuff about stuff about files, systems programming (which I guess is sub-OS at some point) etc http://www.adaic.com/standards/95lrm/html/RM-TOC.html 13:38:16 pkhuong: operating system interfaces is not part of C# the language, but are part of the standard libraries that ship with the runtime 13:38:34 ryepup: are the "standard libraries" part of the standard? 13:38:41 no 13:39:19 michaelw: Seems like that only has to unread one item, so it's not difficult to buffer that one item explicitly 13:39:30 splittist: wow, yes 13:39:47 Xof: by the directory measure, it seems not. 13:40:01 heh, but by the "they standardized _what_!?" it does 13:40:10 "The implementation shall support machine code insertions (see 13.8) or intrinsic subprograms (see 6.3.1) (or both)" 13:40:37 Xof: AFAIK the next version of ISO C++ will have threads and sockets standardized 13:40:40 splittist: http://www.adaic.org/standards/05rm/html/RM-A-16.html 13:40:55 And there's B.4 Interfacing with COBOL... 13:41:54 ok, thanks :-) 13:42:44 fe[nl]ix: yes, I was stuck in 1995 (: 13:44:25 Java has directory manipulation, but I suppose it doesn't count as standardized 13:44:49 Java does not have a standard as far as i know... 13:46:09 Eiffel doesn't seem to have directory manipulation in its standard. I am open to being corrected by fe[nl]ix (: 13:46:16 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has joined #lisp 13:46:26 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.16.61] has joined #lisp 13:46:33 eiffel had a standard ?? 13:47:31 wgl: hum, which xcvb are you using? 13:47:54 ECMA-367 13:48:00 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:48:49 WTF, 238 CHF for the ISO standard ? 13:49:33 fare: xcvb-0.400 13:49:54 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:51:26 wgl: hum. It works for me using sbcl 1.0.31.0.debian. 13:51:29 splittist: you're correct. the standard only covers language semantics 13:51:41 are you using the release tarball? 13:51:51 Fare: i am on ubuntu, so that is pretty much the same. 13:52:15 Yes, i grabbed xcvb.tar.bz2 13:52:46 c-string decoding error (:external-format :UTF-8): the octet sequence 2 cannot be decoded. [Condition of type SB-INT:C-STRING-DECODING-ERROR] 13:52:55 what did I mess up this time? 13:53:01 maybe try overriding SBCL_HOME to point to whichever path you are using? 13:53:11 Oh, i have 1.0.30 sbcl. To me the puzzle is why SBCL can't find sb-posix. 13:53:18 (and whatever you do to make it work, please tell me so I fix next release) 13:54:10 Fare: not sure which path you mean. SBCL_HOME is empty. 13:54:16 wgl: try editing the Makefile, and add export after the echo 13:54:41 shell echo SBCL_HOME=... 13:57:11 fare: gives /usr/local/lib/sbcl 13:57:37 as expected, and sbcl --version gives 1.0.30 as expected. 13:57:40 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:58:21 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:58:36 wgl: edit the Makefile -- I forgot to export it 13:59:21 Export SBCL_HOME i presume. 13:59:50 alternatively, wait... I'm going to release .401 14:00:22 Looke like you want XSH exported 14:00:23 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:00:37 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:00:45 do I? wait... 14:00:49 does it work for you? 14:00:59 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.16.61] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:01:18 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.16.61] has joined #lisp 14:01:18 actually, no, it should already work 14:01:32 Still same. I exported XSH, same thing. 14:01:37 can you paste the failing make output? 14:03:00 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 14:03:22 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-204-215.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:33 Morning. 14:04:22 heh, i find it really peculiar that bash doesn't support the same exact syntax for shell scripts in files in the repl as well 14:04:25 morning gigamonkey - how's the famous author biz? 14:04:50 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:04:59 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:04:59 as in the repl (i.e. interactive shell scripts != scripts in files) 14:06:11 splittist: doing okay. 14:06:17 wiwipa [n=Administ@221.217.205.87] has joined #lisp 14:06:20 fusss: uh? 14:06:33 Just collected all the harsh things my interviewees had to say about C++ into a blog post. 14:06:35 Fare: for loop is broken for interactive use 14:06:50 how can it use macro to generate definition of a function?? 14:06:58 gigamonkey: that is a sure-fire attention-getter 14:06:58 how're the sales graphs? Still correlating with predicted reality? 14:07:04 anybody give me an example?? 14:07:04 wgl: alternatively, edit xcvb.mk.sbcl to insert the thing you want 14:07:13 for file in /foo/bar/* do lynx -dump $file > clean/`basename $file` done. works in file but not interactively. 14:07:15 gigamonkey: yeah, there was pretty unanimous opinion there. Almost the only thing everyone agreed on 14:07:24 gigamonkey: nice Digg-bait (: 14:07:28 Xof: hard to say as I don't get many doses of reality to compare to. 14:07:46 or put ${XSH} after -f xcvb.mk.${LISP} in the install invocation. I dunno. Hard to debug without seeing the error output. 14:08:13 gigamonkey: nice things have been said about Boost http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=876313 14:08:15 gigamonkey: loved the book, btw. A really singular piece of work. 14:08:19 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 14:08:28 dlowe: glad to hear it! 14:08:29 is C++ as bad now as it used to be? 14:08:29 Bah. Past is at http://paste.lisp.org/+1WGW. 14:08:44 Just wait until it gets closures. :) 14:08:55 Fare: C++ had no future, so the went after Futures .. literally 14:08:57 zhivago: it has them with boost. 14:09:26 fusss: have you seen what code looks like in Boost? Boost has impressive capabilities, but the code to access them is horrific 14:09:27 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:09:32 fusss: you forgot semicolons... for ...; do ...; done 14:09:37 wgl: does this work? make -f xcvb.mk.sbcl SBCL_HOME=/usr/local/lib/sbcl obj/xcvb.image 14:09:46 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:09:52 Fare: c++ is pretty tough, boost helps it a little. so far as I can tell, shops that use it (c++ + boost) put lots of restrictions. 14:10:00 plan9: do fucking lord! a semi colon to terminate the first part of a statement .. 14:10:02 fare: goes into makefile? 14:10:02 wth 14:10:06 fusss: and boost is pretty much the avatar of clumsy failure. 14:10:21 at the REPL 14:10:21 fusss: or, you know, a newline... like in your script file 14:10:25 :) 14:10:30 gigamonkey: I presume you know about the C++ FQA 14:10:49 plan9: i have been spoiled by non-python/whitespace/shell programming languages. 14:11:15 Xof: Yeah. 14:11:27 I mean, shell prompt 14:11:47 Fare: I think you mean at the shell. And no, it gives the same error. 14:11:48 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:49 *Xof* actually does have a c++ project with both templates and operator overloading 14:11:53 grrrr. 14:12:14 *dlowe* has a c++ project with templates for STL use and not much else 14:12:28 what about this? export SBCL_HOME=/usr/local/lib/sbcl ; make -f xcvb.mk.sbcl obj/xcvb.image 14:12:30 it's... passable. I'm doing a CL rewrite though 14:12:52 Fare: this is not xcvb, but something I am missing about sbcl. I called up sbcl from the command line and did (load "driver.lisp") and got the same thing. 14:13:13 if you run sbcl normally, can you (require :sb-posix) ? 14:13:33 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:38 But it works from the repl. And code in my code base uses sb-posix with no problem, built from the command line with save-lisp-and-die. 14:13:57 (did you try the export thing?) 14:14:17 <[Jackal]> gigamonkey, I found it rather amusing that first four interviews were almost exclusively web centric. 14:14:23 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 14:14:24 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@88.72.191.10] has joined #lisp 14:14:49 gigamonkey, how did you choose the order of appearance of chapters in the book? 14:15:13 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:15:21 Fare: Yes, did export as well. (require :sb-posix) followed by (load "xcvb/driver.lisp") works. 14:15:23 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:15:37 fare: non-slime--just naked command line. 14:15:37 hum. Gah. 14:16:02 There's a bug in xcvb/driver that fails to require sb-posix. Why didn't I catch this bug??? 14:16:16 probably because my sbcl image has sb-posix pre-included from c-l-c 14:16:21 non-deterministic builds masked it? 14:16:22 ah 14:16:46 too much duct-tape, not enough tiny little tests... 14:16:52 Ok where should I put it. 14:17:35 Fare: roughly by age except Brad Fitzpatrick curses a lot so I swapped him and Zawinski. 14:17:50 brad fitzpatrick sounds wired. 14:17:58 Plus Zawinski says something about Fitzpatrick which made a good end to the Zawinski interview and thus a good lead in to the Fitzpatrick one. 14:18:09 milanj [n=milan@93.86.20.115] has joined #lisp 14:18:30 i'm now reading ingalls. my favorites have been zawinski, bloch and norvig 14:18:40 Fare: the line "(require :sb-posix)" fails. Hmmm. this is really odd. 14:18:44 or "favorites" 14:18:50 they had most to say 14:18:55 And Knuth had to go last both because he should have the last word in general and in particular because after asking everyone else about whether they had read TACOP, his answer to the question of whether all programmers should read them was pretty amusing. 14:19:20 gigamonkey: no spoilers, plz 14:19:30 wgl: can you pull and/or get the latest tarball? 14:19:33 Fare: though it's not clear that very many people are reading in the order given so it may not matter much. 14:19:39 fe[nl]ix: right. 14:20:10 it was all a dream and Symbolics is really alive and in the shower? 14:20:28 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@88.73.235.222] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:20:36 Xach: nice reddit title. ;-) 14:22:23 *Fare* feels bad about having added a dependency on sb-posix in the driver. Should I have left the forking part in an additional file? 14:22:27 anyway 14:23:41 gigamonkey: there is something of a C@W backlash, so i figured i'd have to try something other than the blog post title... 14:24:20 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0D44.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:24:59 Xach: You mean on reddit or more generally? 14:25:01 url? 14:26:01 gigamonkey: mostly reddit. the attention span of a gnat. 14:26:25 Fare: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9upno/ 14:26:58 Fare: of xcvb, i presume. Yes, will do, but now off to a meeting and will report back. 14:27:12 sorry about the trouble. 14:30:31 -!- wiwipa [n=Administ@221.217.205.87] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:32:07 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2DDCF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:14 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2ED1C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:32:17 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 14:33:11 Fare: hey, no trouble. Now it says "XCVB version 0.401 (compiled with SBCL 1.0.30)" 14:33:13 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:30 wgl: much better :) 14:33:51 Thanks. I presume the motivation for this was giant programs that wouldn't compile twice the same way? 14:34:13 wgl: can it bootstrap itself? as in export XCVB_PATH=/path/to/your/extracted/tarball make xcvb ? 14:34:38 wgl: well, they would compile twice the same way after we decided to only build from clean... 14:36:08 “life is too long to know C++ well.” mmm 14:36:26 I find myself doing that often and have had a guilty concience about that as it is as if I haven't made the transition to working with lisp yet. I have pangs every time i restart the inferior lisp. However, in my case, rebuild takes only a little while, so I can only imagine what a truly large system would take. 14:37:06 wgl, http://xkcd.com/303/ 14:37:06 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:37:23 c++ suddenly made a lot more sense to me when i started to use it for embedded stuff. 14:38:05 mnl: as opposed to C? 14:38:09 mnl: how come 14:38:33 yeah, definitely more comfy than C, and i can still predic tmuch predict what assembler is going to come out of it 14:38:33 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:38:41 dcrawford: And with lisp (as previously with smalltalk) I don't get that. Hard to keep up with all the online reading. 14:38:44 .. 14:38:53 like suddenly it makes sense to select when i use virtual and when not when i want the indirection 14:38:55 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-30-177.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 14:38:59 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:39:00 but anyway, this is a lisp channel :] 14:39:09 wgl, unless you're making a clean image with a huge project :( 14:39:31 mnl: I suppose you can choose the correct subset of C++ for embedded work. 14:39:35 Avoiding most of the features of C++ makes it less of a problem. 14:39:49 yeah, i don't know much about templates, and have yet to look into exceptions 14:39:51 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 14:39:58 And turning off exceptions for seriously high performance stuff. 14:39:59 Fare: that'd be System-C then? 14:40:00 but i do use a lot of classes and virtual and some templates 14:40:02 isn't // in the latest ISO C? 14:40:11 and i can still link in asm or C very easily 14:40:15 the thing I was missing most from C++ 14:40:18 Yes, // is iso/ansi C. 14:40:37 (that tells you how long I haven't been touching C++) 14:43:07 Fare: yes, it is, and has been for some time. 14:44:45 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.188.152] has quit [] 14:48:01 -!- demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-070-085.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:48:47 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:49:17 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-177-77-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:20 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has joined #lisp 14:53:20 Fare: says nothing to be done for xcvb. I deleted the image, still get that. 14:53:50 maybe rm -rf obj ? 14:54:31 Yes, and same result. is it looking at the /usr/local/bin/xcvb for completion? 14:54:33 the manual parts of the makefile, outside xcvb.mk, have a dim understanding of dependencies 14:54:45 maybe 14:54:57 you can move it to xcvb.bootstrapped 14:55:37 when hacking xcvb, it is good to either have a known-working version, or a valid ASDF setup to make xcvb-using-asdf 14:55:38 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:56:06 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:56:39 Ah. xcvb is a directory. 14:56:46 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:57:02 oh, you make have to make it from within xcvb/ itself 14:57:05 ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 14:57:07 sorry 14:57:24 the toplevel directory of the tarball is for initial bootstrapping only 14:57:36 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:37 all the hacking happens inside the xcvb/ source directory 14:57:53 (initial bootstrapping is all that most users need) 15:00:20 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:01:36 Fare: hey, not a problem. happy to try stuff and help out. Now bootstrapping is going, and I annotated the paste above with new results with a BORK result. 15:02:11 gah 15:02:53 which paste? 15:03:39 -!- male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:04:32 fare: http://paste.lisp.org/display/88736#1 15:05:22 Paste also shows the command line used, and the working directory. 15:06:30 I need a better error message. 15:06:31 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:06:42 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:07:10 you don't have tthsum installed, so you can't use xcvb's enabled-by-default master mode, which you can disable with --no-master 15:07:37 *Fare* is waiting for ironclad's upstream darcs to be released with tthsum support. 15:10:33 No problem. This box has ancient darcs anyway. It seems to be working well enough to try it with building my executables. Now how will this interact with the package defs and refs one has in existing code base? Should those be removed? 15:10:37 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:37 which package defs and refs? 15:14:02 What I found interesting is that in the recent google code jam that there was a lot of c++ used (at least in the submissions that I checked into), and occasional java, sometimes python. I expected a lot more python. 15:14:06 if you're using ubuntu or debian, you'll have a better experience of it if you aptitude install tthsum 15:14:50 You mean experience with xcvb? 15:14:53 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:56 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has quit ["Valete!"] 15:16:09 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:16:37 fare: tthsum apt-get installed, xcvb now properly builds itself. 15:17:44 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 15:19:58 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.110] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 15:20:16 yes. I'll update the INSTALL file. 15:20:36 KingNato [n=patno@84-217-6-231.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:44 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.18] has joined #lisp 15:21:04 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:25:39 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:26:26 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:26:51 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:27:12 jsnell: do you know anything about the sbcl stepper? 15:27:44 gigamonkey: got another one :P 15:32:59 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:33:17 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:36:52 malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@mreynolds.cs.ucl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:38:10 i'm sure this has a simple answer that I've missed... but while I can use #type-of to get the class of an object, what can I do to get a list of all the classes it is an instance of (ie traverse up the hierarchy, presumably ending with t)? 15:38:27 urk, #'type-of was what i meant.. 15:38:30 slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-147-44.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 15:38:41 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:58 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:39:22 -!- slackaholic [i=1000@187-25-147-44.3g.claro.net.br] has left #lisp 15:40:34 you can walk the output of sb-mop:class-direct-superclasses 15:40:35 _mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.177] has joined #lisp 15:40:35 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:40:39 or closer-mop:... 15:41:21 or use closer-mop:class-precedence-list 15:41:40 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 15:41:56 *Xach* likes http://weitz.de/capi-overview/capi-small/ 15:42:05 (closer-mop:class-precedence-list (find-class 'standard-object)) 15:42:12 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-222-139.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:42:41 Xof: "know" yes, "remember" might be a bit harder 15:42:53 malcolm_reynolds: listen to Fare for truth he spoke ;-) 15:43:10 cool, thankyou! 15:43:36 benny [n=benny@i577A0598.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:44:14 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 15:45:22 Xof pasted "stepper use" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88738 15:46:42 depends a bit on what "not capable of stepping" means 15:46:43 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:46:53 if it doesn't highlight the right form in slime, that's expected 15:46:56 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:47:03 phoenixi [n=tuomosa@a85-156-197-4.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 15:47:05 (step (fact 3)) gets me into the debugger, and whether I type next or step it immediately returns 15:47:23 Fare: okay sb-mop:class-direct-superclasses looks like what I want.. but that is presumably SBCL-specific? 15:47:38 slime is not yet in the picture 15:47:44 malcolm_reynolds, use closer-mop if you want portability 15:48:09 Xach: that is pretty nice. I wonder if he has a library that generates the hmtl/javascript based on a structure. 15:48:10 no, doesn't sound right 15:48:10 okay, just checking if there was a way to do it with ANSI cl. thanks. 15:48:59 Xach: nevermind. found it p93 that you took learning the program  should it be that you took learning [to|how to] program? 15:49:09 err... http://weitz.de/capi-overview/ 15:49:15 heh 15:50:02 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:50:03 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:50:25 jcw [n=jcw@madder.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:50:33 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:50:42 -!- jcw [n=jcw@madder.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 15:52:53 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 15:54:01 francogrex [n=user@219.54-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 15:57:29 Hi, so I come back to this post: http://paste.lisp.org/display/88731 15:57:54 I need to use the function poisexact. However it needs compilation before 15:58:24 I usually compile the file into fas or fasl and load it. But here I decided to compile directly the function. 15:58:29 Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:55 For some reason, I believe there is a better more elegant way to do it though. Can anyone help? Thanks 15:59:00 -!- Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:59:02 -!- knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:59:25 Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:50 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 16:05:43 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2DDCF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:09:05 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@169-250.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:13:14 ok since no replies I will ask something more straightforward: is this ok? (defun add () (defun plus (x y) (+ x y))) 16:13:14 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:13:43 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:13:49 -!- teilzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@p579154C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:14:24 teilzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@p579152E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:55 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:15:12 francogrex, ok for what? 16:15:53 Fare: I mean to have defun inside defun? just a few minutes I'll be back. 16:16:00 it's legal code. Note that the scope of the plus function is global. 16:16:00 yes, you can. 16:16:08 it is NOT lexical 16:16:19 ok so that is also correct: http://paste.lisp.org/display/88731 16:16:33 -!- KingNato [n=patno@84-217-6-231.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [] 16:16:39 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:16:58 Fare: PLUS has access to ADD's lexical environment, though, doesn't it? 16:17:10 (as with using LET)? 16:17:11 note also that you may confuse your implementation's compiler wrt undefined-function warnings 16:17:14 sykopomp, it does 16:17:33 just submitted my text mining project and demo'ed it to an awed audiance. nothing like an slime interaction over GoToMeeting :-) 16:17:49 fusss: congrats! 16:17:59 fusss: nice 16:17:59 thanks :-) 16:18:21 what do you mine in that text? 16:20:21 *Fare* has always disliked the nested defines of Scheme. At least, PLT did things right with its local construct. CL's global scope has some internal consistency though something's amiss. 16:20:34 taking gigs of text from disparate sources, cleaning them up to a common format and performing various analytics on them. it's a text clean up project first and foremost, but after you have a common format you can cross reference it and issue queries, or perform arithmetic and logical operations on "columns" 16:21:03 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 16:21:03 ideally, you'd (def (function :in scope) foo (a b c) ...) 16:21:35 fusss: that's pretty cool 16:21:50 cheers! 16:21:52 hhh just done einsteins riddle, thanks xach for putting that link about classes earlier, that's where i got the riddle 16:22:14 Guthur, repeat URL please 16:22:53 OT: was it clojure that had fancier repl histories than (*, **, ***, +, ++ etc?) 16:23:23 http://weitz.de/capi-overview/capi-small/ if you go to http://weitz.de/ he mentions a lisp program he done to solve it, and then i went to here to get the riddle http://www.manbottle.com/trivia/einstein_s_riddle 16:23:53 Fare if you haven't done it, i recommend it, nice wee brain teaser 16:24:01 fusss: Symbolics had indefinite, clickable histories 16:24:14 woah 16:25:21 Guthur: 10 minutes of prolog, imo 16:25:29 oh, I solved the same problem called "zebra" problem back in the days, as an exercise in forward constraint propagation 16:25:51 it's straightforward unification 16:26:15 drgnvale [n=acristin@209.16.73.144] has joined #lisp 16:26:15 add` [n=user@78.69.82.87] has joined #lisp 16:26:57 yes, unification algorithms often use forward constraint propagation, too 16:27:11 mnl_ [n=mnl@pD9E6D81C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:48 Lisa does forward chaining well 16:28:27 though if you don't do it right, you won't propagate constraints and just backtrack a lot 16:28:41 -!- lichtblau [n=user@77-22-106-8-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:29:16 i did those types of puzzles for fun in elementary school 16:29:16 also, if you do it truly right, you have a nice meta-heuristic to decide on which choice to fork next 16:29:26 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-123-94.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:29:36 dcrawford, the fun thing is writing the program that solves them efficiently :) 16:30:06 dcrawford, indeed there is many, some harder than others though 16:30:24 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-183-180.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 16:30:27 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:30:46 Guthur: did you do it with a pen or all in your head? 16:31:02 I used some of the same techniques when solving my ita puzzle 16:31:37 fusss with a pen, i don't think you get points for having a good memory 16:32:11 for some reason i can solve soduku best when someone else is talking to me or i am thinking about something else 16:32:19 actually, this is a reduced problem, because once you get who owns the fish you're done (although that is likely the last stage in completing the full solution anyways) 16:32:37 the schroedinger's soduku? 16:32:50 just regular one, on my phone 16:33:06 whoosh 16:33:14 ouch 16:33:55 2 hour online meetings tend to drain one's humor abilities 16:34:45 hehe, I sent an email to my extended family's mailing list, and got a reply from my grandfather that shows that once again irony doesn't go well through email 16:35:27 fare you have a family mailing list? modern world.... 16:35:53 ;; *major-mode: irony* *minor-mode: e-mail* 16:35:54 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:35:54 and a 100-year old grandfather who replies to email (through his 60-odd son) 16:36:20 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:36:55 Fare: my father is 70 and he doesn't know when I answered the phone or when it's voice mail. I get these long voice messages from him that are pretty much a monologue and he thinks I am listening :-S 16:37:12 efficiency :P 16:38:05 Fare: I'm back. The thing is in the simple example of add and plus they can work ok in interpreter but for my exmaple of comp poisexact the poisexact doesn't work in compiler it must be compiled first 16:38:27 how that it doesn't work in the compiler? 16:38:31 which compiler? 16:38:58 francogrex, what you're looking for might be EVAL-WHEN 16:39:24 gigamonkey: I hate your enthusiastic review that made me buy your book right when I should be concentrating on other things, but I take some consolation in having found two typos in the acknowledgements alone :) 16:39:28 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-17-207-222.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:33 though you might regret it when you find it 16:39:37 bah 16:39:47 gigamonk`: gigamonkey is offline now? 16:40:16 gigamonk`, did you use a syntax checker? 16:40:37 -!- ephcon [n=ephcon@c-24-63-201-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:40:51 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:41:11 gigamonk`: anyway, I dunno how much of post-printing proofreading you have done, but the first typo I found is in the very first sentence of the acknowledgements 16:41:22 Fare: yes, eval-when; I think that's what's needed. 16:42:10 francogrex, you read the EVAL-WHEN documentation and you lose 1d6 SAN 16:43:54 heh 16:44:15 Fare: yeah. 16:44:24 -!- mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6D81C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:44:27 mathrick: Whoops. 16:44:53 gigamonk`: did you get the one I PM'ed earlier to gigamonkey? 16:45:12 felideon: yeah. Thanks. 16:45:23 cool. wasn't sure since you switched nicks 16:47:14 Fare: (eval-when (:cthulhu-toplevel) ...?...) 16:48:11 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey` 16:48:24 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-204-215.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:48:27 -!- gigamonkey` is now known as gigamonkey 16:48:34 "The consequences are undefined when :cthulhu-toplevel is used." for extra madness, ofc. 16:49:47 mathrick: what typo in the first sentence of the acknowledgements? 16:50:36 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.16.61] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:50:46 gigamonkey: actually it's not there. It was missing the verb before "generously" when I looked, and I checked three times to make sure, but now it clearly says "gave". False alarm :) 16:51:02 but there is double "the" on the second page of acknowledgments IIRC 16:51:16 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.16.61] has joined #lisp 16:51:39 yep, "watch the the kid" 16:51:48 mathrick: yup. Thanks. 16:52:08 HG` [n=HG@89.166.180.153] has joined #lisp 16:52:15 I should start writing things like that down, I do proof-reading to every book I read anyway 16:52:24 so I can just as well give in and make it useful 16:53:05 there were more, but they were in the actual interviews and I don't remember now 16:53:12 mathrick: yeah, and feel free to email me errata. I'm hoping that it won't be too long before we need a 2nd printing and we'll be able to get these fixed. 16:53:24 ah, sure 16:53:52 gigamonkey: and my cat loves it, she's rubbing against it all the time 16:54:19 probably the freshly printed scent is prompting her to mark it or something 16:55:31 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:55 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1"] 16:57:35 *felideon* is the official typo reporter. 16:57:35 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:57:43 I just need to read the book faster :P 16:58:19 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:58:23 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:01:02 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:02:23 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:02:35 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.16.61] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:02:37 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.18] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:05:35 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-nuqdjsjlyjkgbiph] has joined #lisp 17:06:07 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Client Quit] 17:08:18 seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:39 sellout [n=greg@pool-141-157-182-132.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:58 (eval-when (:stars-are-right) (funcall #'cthulhu)) 17:09:08 No, it doesn' seem that eval-when is what I need here. I'll keep the defun inside the defun for now and do the compilation on the first 17:09:33 why do you need to call compile at runtime? 17:10:06 because: The special form c-inline cannot be used in the interpreter 17:10:42 francogrex, is that ECL? 17:10:48 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 17:11:17 I'm sure there are examples somewhere of proper use of the ffi using whichever Lisp you're using. 17:11:22 Fare: yes sure, but it may be any other func that needs compilation befor working ok 17:11:43 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has quit [] 17:12:05 *Fare* admits not having touched ECL with XCVB, though they should marry fine 17:12:37 Fare: I know. That's why I feel what I posted in lisppaste is not nice. There is a better way that I still need to find 17:13:04 it would be great if you get your XCVB to ECL 17:13:11 holly_ [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:14:30 on possibility is to stick the (ffi:clines "#include ") into poisexact function and then compile it; but it's also not clean 17:15:54 Does anyone know handy sequence function that are part of, say, Dylan or Clojure and they miss in CL? 17:17:22 replace-arbitrary-sequence comes to mind 17:17:50 Can you think of a better name, though? 17:18:20 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:19:48 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:19:49 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:19:54 replace-all with a :count keyword argument 17:20:26 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:21:11 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:17 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:31 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:26:36 francogrex, if you're a volunteer to add the backend... 17:26:43 it should not be THAT hard 17:26:50 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:27:53 -!- holly__ [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:28:01 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.177] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:29:29 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 17:30:20 tcr: excuse my ignorance/confusion... Are you working on generic sequences, or on a series protocol like from CLtL2? 17:31:12 Fare:I would love to, but one is my experience is meager. 17:31:44 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:32:13 -!- seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:32:15 Adlai, thanks for the posts of last night left with minion. But are those related to embedding asm in lisp (sbcl)? I can't get what they're supposed to do (though I see the word opcode therein) 17:32:46 was here: http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/rot.lisp 17:32:59 and here: http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/rc5 17:33:20 francogrex: the two links are related. The first one creates two functions which the compiler compiles in a certain manner, and the second one demonstrates using that function. 17:33:22 *those functions 17:33:37 Fare: where can i find :fare-matcher ? 17:33:55 mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.177] has joined #lisp 17:34:48 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229071164.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 17:34:49 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:35:04 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:35:46 *lnostdal* looks at the "WARNING: Starting a select without a timeout while interrupts are disabled." messages rolling by in the REPL .. something in Postmodern? 17:36:32 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:37:01 lnostdal: where do you get that woarning? 17:37:14 good nite all 17:37:15 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"] 17:37:45 *francogrex* will be away for 15 min. 17:37:52 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:38:16 can one program minion to have an automatic answer when one is called while away? 17:38:38 hm, well .. setting *break-on-signals* to T here .. some postmodern-related functions are involved it seems 17:39:08 seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:35 francogrex: Don't think so 17:39:58 that could be a lot of load on minion, given how many people here are away at any one time 17:40:05 ok 17:40:13 i think some sb-ext:with-locked-hash-table on my end is the real cause though .. it wraps the entire body in a without-interrupts thing.. 17:41:37 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:46:31 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:47:14 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:47:32 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:47:59 peddie [n=peddie@TEP.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:48:44 Adlai: Neither nor 17:49:18 Adlai: I'm working on a layer on top of a (possibly generic) sequence iterator protocol to make it convenient to write functions operating on sequences 17:50:35 -!- HG` [n=HG@89.166.180.153] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:50:52 tcr: ah, I think I understand now. thanks for explaining. 17:51:47 lhz [n=shrekz@213.114.170.185] has joined #lisp 17:52:21 HG` [n=HG@xdsleu153.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:52:50 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.55.115] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:53:00 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 17:53:05 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@mreynolds.cs.ucl.ac.uk] has left #lisp 17:54:10 p0a [n=user@athedsl-382587.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:54:15 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 17:54:46 Hello, I want to create an object that is like a hash table except that functions that add and remove simultaneously key/value and vice versa 17:54:52 which is optional 17:55:29 p0a: your description is a bit vague. Maybe come up with some example code of using this object? 17:55:45 ie, examples of how you'd call the add/remove functions in the way you suggested. 17:57:00 Okay imagine that I have a hashtable where every hash is a list of key names 17:57:16 p0a: sounds like asdf would solve your problems! 17:57:43 (my-add value1 value2 hash-table) would (push value1 (gethash value2 hash-table)) and (push value2 (gethash value1 hash-table)) 17:58:06 (my-remove value1 value2 hash-table) would do the same, pop both values from their corresponding hashes 17:58:11 sykopomp: what? 17:58:16 is that a memo or something? :-P 17:58:40 no. ASDF is just clearly the answer! 17:58:40 ;D 17:58:46 p0a: why don't you just write these functions? 17:58:55 Adlai: I think I tried but failed; but now it seems simple 17:59:02 I'll try again and see which problems I'll enocunter and mention them here 17:59:07 writing out code examples always helps 17:59:41 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-85-12.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:00:21 p0a, perhaps you're looking for &rest 18:00:48 lnostdal: no, he's looking for defun... 18:00:56 well, yeah .. heh 18:01:17 -!- sellout [n=greg@pool-141-157-182-132.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 18:02:02 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdsleu153.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:02:14 or map! 18:02:29 kpreid [n=kpreid@209.217.212.34] has joined #lisp 18:03:48 lnostdal: how would map help here? 18:04:09 Does this look like too much code to do this? 18:04:13 p0a pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88746 18:06:56 p0a: not only it's too much code, it won't work either. 18:07:52 right 18:08:09 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:12 so it should be just a function that takes two values and a hash-table huh? 18:09:04 for now, I'd say you should stick with that. 18:09:04 what does (defgeneric (setf dual-gettag) ...) mean? 18:09:25 rullie: it defines a setf generic function. 18:09:37 Xach: generic setf function? 18:10:04 you say tomato, i say tomato? i guess that doesn't work unless spoken... 18:10:16 rullie: (setf foo) is what gets invoked when you (setf (foo ...) something), and there are no setf expanders or macros applicable to expand that form. That's just a generic setf function. 18:10:54 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:11:49 eh 18:12:02 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-85-12.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:12:15 Adlai: Is it possible to do with (setf (my-func value hash-table) 'foo)? I think it is. That's why I wrote the defmethod. It was something on top of the function I told you I want to write 18:12:22 I'll write first that function then come back to this channel 18:13:26 p0a: yes, as long as you define one of the following places: 18:13:30 clhs 5.1.2 18:13:31 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_ab.htm 18:13:59 the simplest of those would be (setf my-func) 18:14:45 The problem I encountered is that I have to pass an addiotional parameter 18:14:54 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:54 to let know when I want this behavior or normal (setf gethash) behavior 18:15:11 perhaps i should really ask what does (setf blah) do? i thought it needed 2 arguments 18:15:13 it should look like (setf (my-func value hash-table t) 'foo) 18:15:28 rullie: it's not evaluated normally. it's part of the syntax of defun/defgeneric 18:15:33 rullie: (setf blah) is a designator for the function that gets invoked when you (setf (blah x) y) 18:15:37 rullie: (setf blah) does nothing, it's a place 18:15:52 prxq [n=mommer@g227078142.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:16:02 hi 18:16:09 prxq: hello 18:16:10 p0a: what about using &optional (tag2 nil tag2-supplied-p) 18:16:13 rullie: (setf blah) serves as the name in that case. 18:16:23 -!- Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:16:35 oh.. interesting 18:16:39 right, (setf blah) is a name, not a place 18:17:12 Adlai: Where do you put this &optional? Strangely enough it didn't work out for me last time I tried it 18:17:36 Take a look at DUAL-GETTAG this is what I did 18:18:28 Btw, I wrote a macro to be like LET and LET* except with the additional syntax ((binding1 binding2 ...) (values 1 2 ...)) 18:18:52 *p0a* posts it for review 18:19:15 p0a: I guess I'm still unclear what exactly you're trying to do. Shouldn't dual-gettag always (push tag1 (gethash tag2 hash)) and vice-versa? 18:19:57 *Xach* is also not clear, and is more curious about the desired interface than the implementation 18:21:00 -!- rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:21:31 are there any news on the environment parameter for macros? Once upon a time there were rumors that work was being done on an implementation, including a spec... 18:23:18 prxq: I tihnk CLtL2 allows portable access to lexical environments 18:23:38 rey_ [n=ikke@134.184.49.19] has joined #lisp 18:23:47 rares [n=rares@130.13.176.255] has joined #lisp 18:24:09 prxq: duane rettig wrote up a specification of allegro's environment access facility 18:24:23 -!- rares [n=rares@130.13.176.255] has left #lisp 18:24:26 I don't think it has been ported to any other implementation 18:24:27 -!- francogrex [n=user@219.54-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:24:58 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.44.98] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:25:09 hm, I see. 18:25:22 prxq: If you're on SBCL, though, try (require :sb-cltl2) 18:25:25 Any specific need, or general interest? 18:25:54 tcr: lots of people nowadays care about the environment. 18:26:25 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:26:34 Blah most of them want inferenced type information out of it which is not going to happen 18:26:57 tcr: "need" is sort of too much claim. I am pondering ways to implement AD in CL, and thought that these things might help. 18:27:10 AD? 18:27:14 ...and I think Adlai was joking :-) 18:27:20 Automatic differentiation. 18:27:35 Oh heh yeah I totally missed that word play 18:27:41 computing derivatives of programs 18:27:49 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:27:50 pam0 [i=c3161e29@gateway/web/freenode/x-xchqmherzqcwjasc] has joined #lisp 18:27:54 sorry, adlai 18:27:56 hi 18:27:59 *Adlai* was "just kidding... but not really" 18:28:11 prxq: I've seen a nifty haskell monad for that 18:28:14 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:28:18 and beyond that, general interest. 18:28:47 prxq: in general, you can get a long way by the commonly known macrolet trick to ship information through the compilation env 18:29:06 that is your own information 18:29:18 tcr: I bet that's pearlmutter's monad, right? 18:29:33 I have no idea, it was a blog posting like two years ago 18:29:46 tcr: is that trick documented somewhere? 18:30:04 prxq: It's in the clhs issue about compiler-let 18:30:31 clhs compiler-let 18:30:32 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for compiler-let. 18:30:44 specbot doesn't search the X3J13 issues? 18:31:14 i was just reading CLHS 3.4.1.4 Specifiers for keyword parameters, and tested in a few lisps: (defun test (&key a) a) (test :allow-other-keys t 'x) 18:31:23 all of them reported an odd number of args error 18:31:33 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:31:40 but they shouldn't, according to CLHS 3.5.1.6 Odd Number of Keyword Arguments 18:31:43 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:35 clhs 3.5.1.6 18:32:36 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_eaf.htm 18:32:38 Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-084-177.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 18:32:50 pam0: read about &allow-other-keys, you're using it wrong 18:32:56 clhs &allow-other-keys 18:32:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_da.htm 18:33:07 no i'm not 18:33:11 pam0: Where do you read that it "shouldn't" ? 18:33:13 and tcr, i just quoted that 18:33:15 pam0: yes you are 18:33:32 pam0: Oh it was for me to read your reference 18:33:32 "If this situation occurs in a safe call, an error of type program-error must be signaled unless keyword argument checking is suppressed" 18:33:39 ok 18:33:50 pam0: you put &aok in the lambda-list of the defun 18:33:52 Adlai: no i'm not! goddamn! 18:33:59 pam0: yes you are! goddamn! 18:34:05 Adlai: you're wrong. 18:34:07 that is the normal way, yes, but this is also valid! 18:34:46 huh 18:34:48 weird 18:34:56 in fact, (defun test (&key a &allow-other-keys) a) (test 'x) has exactly the same problem 18:34:59 *Adlai* is wrong. goddamn! 18:35:19 Adlai is ok no one was watching... hehe 18:35:29 pam0: Do you read that section as saying it must not signal an error? 18:36:06 so, what i'm asking here is, have the acl, clisp, clozure, lispworks and sbcl implementors agreed to never allow an odd number or keyword arguments because that's REALLY awkward or am i missing something in CLHS? 18:37:00 Xach: well, no, but it must not signal a 'program-error because of an odd number of arguments, and that's exactly what these implementations do 18:37:48 let me rephrase that: no, it does not say it "must not" raise an error, it says it "must" raise an error "unless" 18:37:58 pam0: Wearing my rationalizer's hat, it seems like it is describing the "must signal" situation, and the "unless" leads to the "implementations need not but may" situation. 18:38:02 which is practically the same to me 18:38:26 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:38:30 ephcon [n=ephcon@student166-84.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 18:38:59 then clhs 3.5.1.4 and clsh 3.5.1.5 are both "misdefined", i think 18:39:31 i'm not expecting the implementation to "may" raise an error when i pass :allow-other-keys t and some unrecognised keyword arguments 18:39:35 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:39:35 -!- [Jackal] [n=Jackal@118.95.53.83] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:39:45 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 18:39:51 pam0: does an implementation do that? 18:40:09 i surely HOPE not! but what you're telling me is that CLSH allows it 18:40:12 *CLHS 18:40:17 How does something like (loop with x = nil for i upto 10 append ...) work to evaluate to (list 0 1 2 3 ... 8 9 10)? 18:40:18 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:40:35 (I know there's other ways, such as collect or push/nreverse to build this list...) 18:40:50 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:41:04 p0a: http://l1sp.org/pcl/loop/ is a must-read if you wish to loop. 18:41:07 pam0: Yeah, I'd say CLHS says you may still throw an error there. The unless weakens the "must", but does not change it to "must not" 18:41:09 It works a bit slow? 18:41:23 -!- roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 18:41:55 sellout: then the specification is weak because it should say when it must not throw an error 18:42:24 pam0: Hunh? 18:42:30 there are 3 chapters with the same wordings, however the third is the one that the implementations throw errors because they may 18:43:19 -!- rey_ [n=ikke@134.184.49.19] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:43:34 3.5.1.4, 3.5.1.5 and 3.5.1.6 use the same phrasing, only differ in "unrecognized keyword", "invalid keyword" and "odd number of keyword" 18:43:59 Adlai: PCL doesn't mention an example with APPEND. It gives examples for minimize, maximize, summing, and implies that 'appending' works in an analogous way 18:44:15 but (loop ... appending i into x finally (return x)) doesn't work 18:44:30 ok, i'm sorry 18:44:40 pam0: That's a good point. I would say that pushes it toward "must not". 18:44:47 (loop for i from 1 to 5 appending (list i)) => (1 2 3 4 5) 18:44:48 i just noticed that 3.5.1.4 is a bit different from the others 18:45:02 tcr: I get it. thx. 18:45:05 sellout: i'm reverting my claims... :) 18:45:07 p0a: APPEND takes a list, so you have to pass a list to LOOP's append clause. 18:45:35 3.5.1.4 says "it is not permited ... unless", the others simply say "it is not permited" 18:45:36 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:45:50 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:45:53 ok, false alarm, please excuse me ;) 18:46:07 Ok, cool :) 18:46:30 at least Adlai learned something new, not all was bad 18:46:30 -!- ol3````` [n=user@82.113.121.149] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:46:51 Adlai: what is it supposed to evaluate to? 18:46:51 cya 18:46:53 pam0: indeed! Thank you for our witty banter! 18:46:54 -!- pam0 [i=c3161e29@gateway/web/freenode/x-xchqmherzqcwjasc] has left #lisp 18:47:59 p0a: (loop for i from 1 to 3 apppend (list i)) should have similar effect to (append (list 3) (append (list 2) (append (list 1)))) 18:48:14 (append (list 3) (append (list 2) (append (list 1)))) => (3 2 1) 18:48:20 Thanks I understand now 18:48:30 eh, looks like I got that backwards, but you see the general idea. 18:49:44 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:50:24 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:52:15 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:57 p0a pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88750 18:54:13 What would be a suiting name for this macro? 18:54:55 NIH 18:55:00 or maybe MY-NIH 18:55:07 NIH? 18:55:14 Not Implemented Here? 18:55:41 I don't get it 18:56:25 is there a standard way to strip nonprinting characters from a string? 18:56:43 Ralith: (remove-if-not #'graphic-char-p string) 18:56:45 clhs remove 18:56:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm 18:57:00 tcr: oh, right, for some reason that use of remove-if didn't occur to me. 18:57:00 ... or what tcr said. 18:57:01 thanks. 18:57:10 also I had no idea graphic-char-p existed! 18:57:22 ty ^^ 18:57:34 there are fewer than 800 symbols in the CL package, so there's really no excuse for not knowing them all. 18:57:54 please sign off and study for a while! 18:57:58 Xach: yes there is; I haven't been here that long :P 19:01:10 oops, sorry. 978. 19:01:20 *Xach* thought it was 789 or 798 or similar 19:01:25 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:01:33 Xach: how did you count? 19:01:52 I think you did something with the "COMMON-LISP" package, no? 19:02:03 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:02:10 p0a: C-c I (find-package :common-lisp) 19:02:24 p0a: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/X_Symbol.htm 19:02:33 "There are 978 symbols in the COMMON-LISP package." 19:02:54 p0a: (labels(({(] &rest [)(apply([ ])[))([(>)(elt(]())>))(](<)(do-external-symbols(] :cl)(push ] <))(sort <`string<`:key`string))(}({ + ^)({`816`1/5)({`688({`875({`398()"~{~A~^ ~}"(]())){(+ { +)))({`381)^))(do*(({`5248({`584 }`36063))([`874({`395 {`6))(]`4({`584 {`6))(}`#36RH4G6HUTA1NVC1ZHC({`395 }`36063)))((} [ ] ({`977 ]))({`902)({`381)))) 19:02:57 Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has joined #lisp 19:03:13 O.O 19:03:17 ... 19:03:23 Adlai: yep 19:03:28 Fare: is that Clojure? 19:03:36 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 19:03:45 Fare, link one of the phrase cmds using that 19:04:04 Fare: ? 19:04:13 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.187] has joined #lisp 19:04:27 p0a: it's CL, just obfuscated because he uses some characters as variables that you don't often see that way. 19:04:29 Adlai, that's completely portable Common Lisp. If it doesn't work properly, complain to your implementors! 19:04:39 Adlai: I understood that 19:04:45 moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 19:04:48 ah, it was one :P 19:04:56 dcrawford, uh? 19:04:59 *Xach* wonders if CLforJava does that 19:05:01 ...or at least suspected. How is it related to what I asked? 19:05:14 never mind, orig thought that just gave the number of symbols 19:05:15 Does it answer any of my questions or did Fare highlight my name by mistake 19:05:32 Xach you obviously need to learn the last 200 then 19:05:33 hehe 19:05:36 p0a: it illustrates the fact that the list of symbols in the CL package is well standardized. 19:05:39 An IOCLCC would be interesting 19:05:47 run the code, it gives something better than the # of symbols :P 19:06:01 I don't think so, simple M-x replace-string can take care of deobfuscating this 19:06:13 Fare: In what way? 19:06:17 emma [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-aaqqaaarpdrmcqum] has joined #lisp 19:06:23 Guthur: i will need until the end of the day, sorry :( 19:06:29 Ralith, are macro-characters allowed? 19:06:37 Ralith: I have several entries in that 19:06:38 Fare: where is that from? 19:06:43 p0a, it relies heavily on sort giving the expected result 19:06:59 I offer you (setf format) as the ultimate obfuscation 19:07:02 Xach ok, there will be a class test tomorrow, make sure you are prepared 19:08:04 Fare: sure, but judging is based on creativity, not brute force. 19:08:17 -!- emma [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-aaqqaaarpdrmcqum] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:08:24 emmy [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-eqpdtbppwxlzqfrk] has joined #lisp 19:08:30 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-382587.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 19:08:51 Krystof, do you need to override a package lock to define setf format? 19:09:00 I probably would, these days 19:09:01 bah 19:09:27 Fare: where is that code from? 19:09:34 Adlai, which code? 19:09:46 the "jalh" 19:10:06 jalh??? 19:10:27 oh. Well, I just got inspired by Krystof's jalh 19:10:31 Just Another Lisp Hacker 19:10:59 and prompted by LispM into writing ever more obfuscated message printers. 19:11:24 until this one came up. 19:11:54 so it's original FaRe code, straight from Cthulu? 19:12:11 http://groups.google.co.uk/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/fa08df36a6c61bb7/e56ee90c1679f7d1?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=group:comp.lang.lisp+author:csr21%40cam.ac.uk+format#e56ee90c1679f7d1 19:12:25 evil obfuscation code, both in the body and the signature 19:12:52 seamus_android [n=AW@212.183.140.55] has joined #lisp 19:12:59 also, (FORMAT T "(~@{~w ~}~3:*'~@{~w~^ ~})" 'FORMAT T "(~@{~w ~}~3:*'~@{~w~^ ~})") 19:13:08 I was reminded of the SYSEVAL of the HP28 19:14:38 Krystof: that's nice... format may not be turing-complete, but it is quine-complete! 19:15:08 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:13 so I turned my previous attempt into a combo of itself and SYSEVAL 19:15:25 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 19:16:11 (In HP Reverse Polish Lisp, SYSEVAL took a number and called the assembly routine at that address) 19:16:33 (the obvious portable CL equivalent is... well, you know if you've decrypted my JALH) 19:16:34 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:16:34 Fare: have you tried asking #perl on what that code does and then wait to see how fast they notice it's not perl? 19:17:00 p_l: next challenge, the bilingual obfuscated CL / Perl program :) 19:17:03 that's be fun 19:17:18 one that's both a CL interpreter in Perl and a Perl interpreter in CL 19:17:29 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:34 so by applying itself twice, you get the identity. 19:18:37 did you see the 11 language quine-loop 19:18:54 dcrawford, nope 19:19:02 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195.50.215.64] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:19:13 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9ot8y/quinerelay_with_11_programming_languages/ 19:19:15 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:19:30 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:19:47 I recall a hello world-like app in several languages 19:20:13 In clbuild, how do I build a monster.core with more than one project? Can I change things before dumping (e.g. setting the values of specials)? It seems dumpcore only lets you make a "monster" core out one project. 19:21:42 -!- setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit ["leaving"] 19:25:14 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:25:31 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-235.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:25:31 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:26:40 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@99.33.92.164] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:27:46 Fare: I believe the magic numbers in your JAHL were positions in symbol list in CL: package? 19:28:22 -!- mnl_ [n=mnl@pD9E6D81C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:28:40 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:11 setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:29:48 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@90.149.103.151] has quit ["kernel upgrade"] 19:30:10 Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:40 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:32:53 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:33:03 p_l: sorted symbol list 19:33:17 hence syseval 19:34:28 heh. Kinda like palcode... ;-) 19:35:48 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:36:01 borism [n=boris@195.50.215.64] has joined #lisp 19:36:04 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:36:06 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-73-72.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:37:16 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:37:27 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:40:03 konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has joined #lisp 19:40:03 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:40:19 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:40:59 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@90.149.103.151] has joined #lisp 19:41:07 francogrex [n=user@219.54-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 19:41:14 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-177-77-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:42:00 here. I revived an very old 32 MB ram PC (10 years old) with DSL linux and i installed 2 lisps on it already 19:42:27 the latest ECL and the latest cmucl. I wanted sbcl but that didn't work 19:42:37 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:44:12 francogrex: SBCL eats at least 70MB of ram from the get-go in my experience, so I'm not surprised it wouldn't run... 19:44:13 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 19:44:18 Greetings. 19:44:20 KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:34 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:44:39 marioxcc [n=user@201.132.49.182] has joined #lisp 19:44:51 Adlai: yes and also it kept complaining that my kernel is old and doesn't support threads 19:45:03 francogrex: you can compile SBCL without threads 19:45:43 Adlai: ok, in any case cmucl is fine. I just need to get asdf installed on it 19:47:40 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:47:42 Ugh, I was about to gripe about consing, when I realized that I'm using MULTIPLE-VALUE-LIST in a loop. That's probably a pretty consie operator, no? 19:47:50 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:48:31 ol3````` [n=user@82.113.121.158] has joined #lisp 19:48:32 <_3b> depends on how you use it 19:48:46 tmh: I did the same recently, where performance didn't matter 19:49:16 for (nextp element element-fit) = (multiple-value-list (next-element)) where (next-element) is a hash table iterator. 19:49:24 'twould have been nice if (loop for (a b c) = (multiple-value-list ...) ...) was optimized 19:49:49 s/was/were/ 19:49:59 I'm getting killed by consing all over this code. I never worry about that and it usually doesn't matter, but in this case it does. 19:50:30 <_3b> i think sacla LOOP optimizes that, thought sbcl did too 19:51:22 <_3b> hmm, maybe sbcl doesn't 19:51:24 Well, that really highlights my problem. I'm not the best at interpreting the profiling results. Interpretation is probably implementation specific, anyway. 19:52:16 *_3b* wonders how hard that would be to add to sbcl 19:52:46 <_3b> you could try converting it by hand and see if that helps 19:52:52 This is really the first time that performance has been an issue, which I think speaks volumes for lisp. People worry about performance too much. 19:52:56 -!- drgnvale [n=acristin@209.16.73.144] has left #lisp 19:53:11 _3b: Yeah, I think that's the only way I'll know. 19:53:12 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:53:30 <_3b> move the var defs to WITH clauses, and add DO (setf (values nextp el el-fit)) (next-element)) 19:53:38 ASau` [n=user@91.76.57.78] has joined #lisp 19:54:25 it's not hard to do something like (loop for (x y z) being the values of ...) 19:54:42 or (loop ... (m-v-b ...)) 19:54:48 <_3b> harder to do that portably though :) 19:54:49 -!- ASau` [n=user@91.76.57.78] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:54:49 I'll do it for something from my amazon wishlist 19:54:56 give me a second to update my amazon wishlist first 19:55:03 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:55:16 pkhuong: That's what I was doing originally, then saw m-v-l and thought, conciseness! 19:56:03 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:56:16 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-055-071.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:16 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:56:26 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-30-177.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:58:44 Why did I not notice the for-as-hash subclause before? 19:58:59 <_3b> oh yeah, that might be useful there too :p 19:59:13 tmh: you mean, you didn't read the CLHS from start to finish three times aloud before you came asking questions? 19:59:14 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:59:25 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:59:29 Heh, I should have. 19:59:41 ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-181-167.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:59:55 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:00:00 We should start a lisp madrassa where we all rock back and forth reciting the hyperspec from memory. 20:00:02 Krystof: time's up. 20:00:10 Fare [n=Fare@63.107.91.99] has joined #lisp 20:01:03 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2f44.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:01:20 In the evenings we can debate the appropriate way to handle 'undefined behavior'. 20:01:23 morphling [n=stefan@89.13.47.68] has joined #lisp 20:02:31 Xach: I haven't managed to sign in yet! 20:03:57 -!- francogrex [n=user@219.54-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:04:03 Honestly, what got off on the wrong path was the WITH-HASH-TABLE-ITERATOR example in the hyperspec that demonstrates its use with LOOP. I saw that and thought, "That must be *the* way to iterate over hash tables." 20:04:03 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:04:55 hey, look, Amazon is recommending C@W for m 20:04:56 me 20:05:24 Why, because you already purchased it? :-) 20:05:53 no, I haven't logged into Amazon for years 20:07:18 (and I haven't bought C@W, either; I am waiting for my free copy as statistical consultant) 20:08:59 I was just poking fun at the Amazon recommendations. Between Amazon and Netflix, I've become opposed to targeted marketing. To be fair to Netflix, though, my wife and I share one account and rarely rate the movies. 20:09:45 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:10:39 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 20:11:07 -!- ephcon [n=ephcon@student166-84.hampshire.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:11:08 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:11:25 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:11:50 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:14:55 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:15:07 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:16:55 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:58 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:19:16 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:21:49 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-207-222.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:22:12 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@213.114.170.185] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:23:13 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 20:25:44 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has quit [] 20:26:36 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:26:51 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:27:44 Ralith_ [n=ralith@d142-058-080-031.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 20:29:43 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 20:34:07 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-084-177.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:38:22 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209.217.212.34] has quit [] 20:40:17 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:40:30 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 20:40:32 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:40:53 Adlai pasted "Fare's JALH Decoded [SPOILER WARNING]" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88765 20:42:38 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 20:42:43 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-129-134.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:44:17 -!- emmy [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-eqpdtbppwxlzqfrk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:44:46 Adlai, so can you replace the magic number there to print arbitrary text? 20:45:11 Fare: read the last sentance. I'll work on that later tonight... 20:45:45 -!- Draggor is now known as Iaman 20:46:22 -!- Iaman is now known as Draggor 20:46:40 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 20:46:40 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:46:50 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:47:27 -!- seamus_android [n=AW@212.183.140.55] has quit [] 20:48:42 Adamant, I'm saving the URL. I hope you're having fun at least 20:49:34 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 20:49:45 -!- Madsy [n=Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:50:15 Fare: was that to me? 20:50:53 cddr [n=user@5ad962ef.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 20:51:04 yes, bad completion 20:51:35 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:51:37 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 20:53:00 -!- kerimbasol_ [n=kerim@85.107.146.214] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:53:30 too many people have a /nick that starts with Ad... 20:54:31 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-181-167.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:54:45 heh 20:55:08 ruediger [n=ruediger@188.23.183.148] has joined #lisp 20:55:11 or Fa... 20:56:20 I had a previous version that repeatedly recomputed the cl symbol list instead of sleeping 20:56:33 worked great on SBCL, was too fast on clisp. 20:56:33 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:56:36 -!- fe[nl]ix is now known as Farquardt 20:56:47 -!- Fare is now known as fe[nl]ix 20:56:55 -!- fe[nl]ix is now known as Fare 20:58:37 gah 20:59:04 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:59:06 anyway -- anyone here use ABCL? Think it would be even remotely possible to use it for developing Android apps? 20:59:06 yes? 20:59:50 Remotely, maybe, but the set of libraries available on Android is not the standard set of JDK libraries 21:00:20 heh :( 21:00:25 so you might have to retarget parts of ABCL to use the Android classes -- or reimplement a compatibility layer 21:00:38 in the same genre there's also CL-in-Java 21:00:48 or else, jnil, clojure, etc. 21:02:05 hmm. 21:02:28 wouldn't a lisp also be much more resource-heavy (if running on the jvm?) 21:03:22 oh god I'm going to stab someone. 21:03:41 *tmh* wonders is someone forgot to take their meds. 21:03:58 word of warning: the CLforJava tarball expands its entire contents into the directory you call tar from >:( 21:04:12 Oh, yeah, I hate that. 21:04:20 sykopomp: also android doesn't use the standard jvm iirc 21:04:23 :( 21:04:28 Fare annotated #88765 "hope you're having fun" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88765#1 21:04:34 <_3b> how's flash on android? 21:05:18 hah. That's cute. It has a splash screen. 21:06:44 I haven't found a good JVM lisp for mobile use. They all produce pretty large deliverables. 21:06:52 huh. CLforJava doesn't even implement LOOP. :\ 21:06:54 -!- Ralith_ [n=ralith@d142-058-080-031.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:07:16 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:07:19 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:07:22 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:07:33 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:08:15 That's disappointing. When I looked over the website, I got the impression that it was reasonably close to complete. 21:09:07 there's not even CLOS :< 21:09:13 *Fare* wonders if he'll tweak XCVB's static traversal, or post-process its output, to get a graph of state-of-the-worlds connected by commands-to-run 21:09:29 "The project is in its late stages of development, and just about ready to be taken to full scale public open source." 21:09:37 and not like you gain anything from getting stuck with a CL subset -- the java image is at 122M RES. 21:09:58 SBCL is such a small implementation! 21:10:06 tmh: yeah. I can't help but wonder if I missed something... 21:10:45 If their idea of "late stages of development" don't include actually implementing the spec, maybe they should not claim to be common lisp. 21:11:17 tmh: well, they're not implementing ANSI. 21:11:25 <_3b> heh, even my lisp has LOOP :p 21:11:32 sykopomp: Did you download the "Latest Build"? (2009-10-10) 21:11:33 were CLOS and LOOP not in CLtL2? 21:11:37 doesn't Moby target the G1 ? 21:11:39 tmh: yes. 21:11:49 Ugh 21:12:07 tmh: oh, apparently not. I've got the 09-10-03 21:12:26 http://www.clforjava.org/CL4J-Dist/CLforJava-20091010.zip 21:12:52 Although, really, could that much have changed in a week? 21:13:04 -!- ol3````` [n=user@82.113.121.158] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:13:15 ol3````` [n=user@82.113.121.158] has joined #lisp 21:13:25 depends which week 21:13:55 is it the week during which the students checkin their end-of-year exercise in extending CL4J? 21:14:15 Heh, touche 21:14:16 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:14:24 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 21:14:31 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:14:41 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:14:46 "hey, if I rip LOOP code from SACLA, does that give me points?" 21:15:25 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:27 *_3b* did that, /me doesn't neecd points though 21:16:01 with enough points, you can earn a paper to put on the wall... 21:16:42 how's your thesis writeup going? 21:16:49 <_3b> i suspect all my points have expired by now, so just 1 loop implementation wouldn't be enough to matter :) 21:16:57 -!- delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:17:02 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:46 Krystof, same old :) 21:17:58 *_3b* would prefer the paper that goes in the wallet to the just wall kind anyway :) 21:18:37 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.129] has quit ["so long.."] 21:21:01 where would I be if everyone thought like that! 21:21:51 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:22:18 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:23:03 fortunately, some of my students value learning even more than either kind of piece of paper 21:23:19 <_3b> yeah, that part is more interesting 21:24:11 not an economically sound outlook though 21:24:32 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:24:40 *_3b* isn't very good at 'economically sound' anyway :p 21:24:50 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 21:24:50 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:25:13 you should meet some of my colleagues 21:25:27 hey .. andriod has a webkit browser, sykopomp .. i haven't bothered with this mobile stuff at all, but figured i'd try a livecd with android on it on virtualbox here, and it works .. lisp web-app + android .. cool :) 21:25:27 it's possible that if they and Fare were in the same room we'd have an explosion and lots of gamma-rays produced 21:25:45 Krystof, hehe 21:26:46 <_3b> actually probably my biggest problem with aquisition of either sort of paper is the tendency for people to want me to be awake at specific times in the process 21:29:37 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:29:38 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:29:50 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:30:00 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-33-229.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:31:27 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 21:32:22 xach: No, CLforJava doesn't appear to come close. 21:32:42 Madsy [n=Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 21:34:46 xach: Works nicely in ccl under max os/x. 21:37:27 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:40:01 I was playing with hash tables and got bitten by EQL. In particular, (eql "Foo" "Foo") => true OR=> false. On SBCL, it appears to be false. 21:40:27 it can be true too! 21:40:58 Joy. 21:40:59 (try file-compiling it) 21:41:18 really you got bitten by not understanding what you were doing 21:41:19 Use an EQUAL hash table, or EQUALP if you want keys to be case-insensitive 21:41:30 Krystof: That was implied. 21:41:30 try not to blame a standardized Common Lisp function 21:41:40 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:42:30 Every time I set out to learn or better understand topic A about Common Lisp, I end up learning about topic X, Y and Z. 21:43:05 and you get free bonus sarcasm from me, too! 21:43:14 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 21:44:11 -!- Farquardt [n=algidus@88-149-210-235.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 21:44:31 -!- s0ber [i=pie@220-136-225-231.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:44:34 -!- phoenixi [n=tuomosa@a85-156-197-4.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 21:44:39 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-235.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:45:43 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-123-94.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:45:45 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-166-99.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:27 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:47:04 how can i can inspect the external symbols 21:47:08 in a package 21:47:22 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 21:48:29 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust936.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 21:49:05 -!- add` [n=user@78.69.82.87] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:49:19 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-76-57-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:49:45 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-235.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 21:50:06 Guthur: (inspect 'external-symbol)? 21:50:07 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-235.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:50:21 (swank:inspect-in-emacs (find-package 'some-package)) .. then hit enter on "external symbols" 21:50:37 or DO-EXTERNAL-SYMBOLS 21:50:43 leo2007 pasted "ccl coding system" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88768 21:51:26 Is my setting of ccl coding system correct in 88768? 21:52:11 -!- Fare [n=Fare@63.107.91.99] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:52:14 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-72-66-64-165.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:30 -!- Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:54:00 cheers guys i'll give them a shot, sorry had to go afk there 21:55:36 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:56:40 lnostdal cheers that done the trick 21:56:52 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 21:57:19 oudeis [n=oudeis@192.117.29.134.static.012.net.il] has joined #lisp 21:58:11 lnostdal how to i quit, or do i just close the buffer 21:58:18 to/do 21:58:22 Guthur, q 21:58:38 q works in many contexts in slime by the way 21:58:39 doh, cheers again 21:58:50 Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has joined #lisp 21:59:44 -!- morphling [n=stefan@89.13.47.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:00:35 anyone tried the Lispbuilder-sdl-examples? it crashes every time i put the mouse over the window 22:00:53 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:02:34 It's not supposed to? ;-) 22:02:34 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:03:37 <_3b> any particular exa 22:03:41 <_3b> example? 22:03:49 hey guys 22:03:50 tmh well i would have thought the mouse-2d wouldn't 22:03:53 how do I tell SBCL to use TCO? 22:04:09 i gave the other graphical demos the benefit of the doubt 22:04:12 <_3b> mouse-2d works here 22:04:23 -!- LiamH [n=none@132.250.138.103] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:04:35 Guthur, oh, .. you can use tab-completion to figure out what's external to a package btw. .. say at the repl, you type: (some-package: 22:04:40 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:05:03 _3b what implementation you using 22:05:51 <_3b> ubuntu 904 x8664 22:06:04 Ralith: debug 0, space and speed high; and don't use dynamic-extent things like condition handlers or special variables 22:06:10 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:06:22 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 22:06:26 antifuchs: or even debug 1, no? 22:06:30 possibly 22:06:42 Ralith: and even then it might decide that things can't be TCOed 22:06:43 _3b i was going to blame the lisp implementation as opposed to the OS hehe 22:06:48 antifuchs: any way to verify whether it worked? 22:06:51 <_3b> ah, sbcl there 22:06:53 i'm on ubuntu here, using clisp 22:07:02 Ralith: well, run it and see if it runs out of stack (-: 22:07:08 I've got a recursive binary search that I'll be applying to very large datasets. 22:07:17 Ralith: alternatively, examine the disassembly 22:07:25 *Ralith* doesn't know any ASM :/ 22:07:42 then I'd suggest the empirical approach (: 22:07:43 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:07:46 :P 22:07:47 'kay 22:07:56 lnostdal thanks that tab complete is sweet 22:09:05 umm even the key-test crashes 22:09:08 this is not good 22:09:48 they run but the minute they get an input they crash disconnecting lisp as well 22:09:55 ASau [n=user@91.76.58.104] has joined #lisp 22:11:06 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:11:10 <_3b> sure you have current versions of everything? 22:11:18 <_3b> lb-sdl and cffi in particular probably 22:12:35 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:36 _3b i got them just tonight so i'm assuming they are the most up to date 22:12:38 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-235.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 22:12:56 <_3b> any useful output when the lisp exits? in *inferior-lisp* buffer for example if you run from slime 22:12:57 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 22:13:23 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88.149.210.235] has joined #lisp 22:14:24 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:14:31 _3b i'll check, cheers 22:17:07 -!- ASau [n=user@91.76.58.104] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:17:48 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:18:02 Hmm. What's the difference between the type simple-string and (simple-array character (*))? Is it the (simple-array nil) case? 22:18:07 umm not looking good 22:18:08 Process inferior-lisp segmentation fault 22:19:29 SIGSEGV cannot be cured. Fault address = 0x0. 22:19:40 i'm assuming that not very helpful at all 22:19:50 nor easily fixed 22:20:21 <_3b> might be easily fixed, hard part is probably diagnosing it :) 22:20:50 is it troublesome installing 2 implementations side by side 22:21:02 <_3b> shouldn't be 22:21:03 i'm wondering if it would be worth giving SBCL a go 22:21:23 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:15 rtoym: if the upgraded-array-element-type of character and base-char are different, then a base-string is a simple-string but not a (simple-array character (*)) 22:25:55 rtoym: I think simple-string is (or (simple-array character (*)) (simple-array base-char (*)) (simple-array nil (*))) 22:25:56 rtoym: because «A simple string is a specialized one-dimensional simple array whose elements are of type character or a subtype of type character.» 22:27:17 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.187] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:27:25 Ralith: and tail call optimisation matters in a bsearch how? 22:27:56 Oh, right. I keep forgetting that base-char and character can be different. 22:28:05 pkhuong: 15:08:26 < Ralith> I've got a recursive binary search that I'll be applying to very large datasets. 22:28:27 Ralith: and? 22:28:27 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:28:39 pkhuong: read that carefully. 22:28:43 Do you realise how slow growing lg is? 22:28:45 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:29:26 pkhuong: I realise that, unoptimized, I got overflows. 22:29:45 Ralith: then your problem isn't with TCO but a bug in your implementation. 22:29:52 good night 22:30:07 pkhuong: you wanna review it? 22:30:14 it's small. 22:30:21 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@77.6.237.228] has quit ["hello darkness, my old friend"] 22:30:37 no. I can count the number of atoms in the universe and tell you that your data set isn't large enough for TCO in a working binary search to be an issue. 22:30:43 hi all 22:30:54 ¿how do i represent a newline character inside a string? 22:31:02 marioxcc: you type a newline. 22:31:02 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:31:21 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:31:27 ¿there is no a \n like as in C? 22:31:32 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 22:31:43 no 22:32:08 pkhuong: if you're not willing to help, why did you even say anything? :/ 22:32:09 ok, thanks :S 22:32:16 <_3b> there is ~% in format strings, and reader macros to allow things like \n in other strings though 22:32:32 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:32:49 yes, thanks 22:32:52 <_3b> Ralith: suggesting you are looking for the problem in the wrong place sounds like help to me :) 22:33:07 fair enough. 22:33:18 I have no idea where to start looking elsewhere, though. 22:33:55 <_3b> Ralith: paste the code? 22:33:55 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:34:12 <_3b> Ralith: broken termination conditions would be one guess 22:34:12 Do you also look for lost keys under street lamps? 22:34:27 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:35:04 _3b: it terminates, and seems to work fine for small sets. 22:35:08 _3b: http://paste.lisp.org/display/88769 22:35:31 it even worked fine the first time I fed it a 2 million elt array 22:35:38 but the second time it died. 22:35:56 <_3b> have you tried 0,1,2,3 element arrays? 22:36:02 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has quit ["Verlassend"] 22:36:15 <_3b> or try printing out the bounds and midpoint at every iteration 22:36:45 like I said, works fine for small sets 22:37:13 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:37:24 <_3b> hmm, maybe your problem is making a new array every iteration 22:37:29 Ralith: a linear search also terminates and works fine for small sets. It's still a buggy implementation of binary search. 22:37:59 pkhuong: "it's buggy" really isn't helping at all. 22:38:10 obviously, something is wrong. 22:38:15 <_3b> also, you drop the test and order on the recursive calls 22:38:30 ooh, nice catch 22:38:37 and yeah the array alloc seems likely. 22:38:56 is passing bounds along as keyword params instead a good solution? 22:39:07 Ralith: damn right it's useful. Debugging buggy code is much more productive than grasping at tail-call-straws. 22:39:13 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 22:39:32 <_3b> bound seems like something that might be externally useful 22:39:33 pkhuong: it was useful the first time you said it, somewhat. The next several repetitions did not add anything. 22:40:00 also, not a binary search. Subseq is far from O(1). 22:40:10 <_3b> alternately, you could move the recursion to a LABELS form with just the bounds 22:41:13 Ralith: and how did you determine that stack exhaustion was an issue? 22:41:29 pkhuong: I didn't. 22:41:30 demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-070-085.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:39 Mostly, I was curious how to tell SBCL to do that. 22:42:26 <_3b> also, TCO doesn't help there anyway, since 50% chance you aren't tail recursive 22:42:32 hm? 22:42:36 how so? 22:43:02 <_3b> hmm, maybe not 22:43:06 isn't hitting any of the cond clauses an endpoint? 22:43:09 yeah 22:43:21 anyway, thanks for the subseq pointer; I must have overlooked that it allocs. 22:43:37 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:56 <_3b> yeah, not sure if that is tail recursive or not, i'd have to think there :p 22:44:35 It seems like it should be, whether or not it gets optimized as such, since the function returns after the execution of whichever cond clause. 22:44:38 _3b: of course it is. The problem is that it allocates as much space as the input array. 22:45:17 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-72-66-64-165.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:45:23 how would I check SBCL's heap size? 22:45:33 <_3b> ok, i'll take that answer in place of thinking :) 22:45:38 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:46:30 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188.23.183.148] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:46:50 heh 22:47:05 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DD13.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:48:51 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:49:53 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 22:51:24 whee 22:51:27 that is *much* faster 22:51:31 thanks _3b ^^ 22:55:03 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:56:29 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:57:33 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:59:19 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:59:51 Can default values in a lambda list refer to preceeding arguments? 22:59:53 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 23:00:56 *Ralith* facepalms and TIASs 23:01:24 TIAS? 23:01:25 apparently yes! 23:01:27 neat! 23:01:32 pkhuong: Try It And See. 23:01:41 er 23:01:43 p_l: ^ 23:01:55 irssi nickcomplete is bugging out on me lately. 23:02:23 Ralith: at least it's nickcompletion, not other crazy things people do to my nick... 23:02:48 heh 23:03:39 people reading it as p_I should seriously check their fonts, it can be a bad mistake while programming... ;P 23:04:26 Bitstream Vera Sans Mono ftw 23:04:55 1lI all nice and differentiated 23:05:09 *p_l* uses Consolas. It looks nice with subpixel rendering and hinting 23:05:30 hmm 23:05:38 someone can tellme 23:05:39 why 23:05:41 this: (with-open-file (latex-output "/home/marioxcc/dict.tex" :direction :output :if-does-not-exist :create :if-exists :truncate) 23:05:44 ¿do not work? 23:06:08 when i try to compile it 23:06:16 slime says: warning: 23:06:16 Asserted type [...] 23:07:36 marioxcc: :truncate is not a valid argument for :if-exists 23:07:51 ok, thanks 23:18:07 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:18:20 fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 23:20:49 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:21:12 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:21:22 rares [n=rares@130.13.176.255] has joined #lisp 23:21:56 -!- rares [n=rares@130.13.176.255] has left #lisp 23:24:11 -!- Shamwow [n=eric@d23-164.uoregon.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 23:25:20 chavo_ [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:54 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:26:18 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:26:32 -!- moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:26:42 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:49 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:28:24 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 23:28:42 postamar [n=postamar@69-196-189-134.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:03 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:31:25 chavo_ [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:44 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Success] 23:32:56 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:35:18 -!- chavo_ is now known as chavo 23:35:43 -!- chavo is now known as chavo_ 23:36:16 WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-147-93.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:00 Hello, I'm trying to get ECL and Slime working with my CLC. It's not seeing the CLC respository. Anyone else have this issue? 23:39:39 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:40:03 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:40:19 -!- chavo_ is now known as troussan 23:40:50 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.20.115] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:41:13 WarWeasle: did you set the repository properly? 23:41:47 Hey p_l, It was created by Ubuntu. And it worked with sbcl. 23:42:20 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:42:39 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:43:57 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:44:11 And I've had ECL working before, but I needed to build it (for threads) It works but I have to manually enter all the asdf repositories by hand. 23:44:42 WarWeasle: then just edit initfiles. I usually don't deal with CLC, it has rather bad rep. :P 23:45:10 how does emacs usually decide what version of swank to use, i downloaded a new version of slime, pointed my .emacs to it but it says slime and swank version differ, the swank is the previous version 23:45:20 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:46:26 Lycurgus [n=Ren@72.228.150.44] has joined #lisp 23:46:48 Guthur: I'm not sure. I think it just queries the lisp interpreter. 23:47:36 warweasle: cheers, i think i have screwed my install, was too noob while setting it up 23:48:17 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:13 As far as I can tell, everyone is a newbie with lisp. Unless you invented it. and then you don't use it anymore. 23:49:50 Adlai annotated #88765 "More Magic" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88765#2 23:50:05 warweasle hhh, well this is more and environment issue as oppose to language, its strange the it picks up the right slime version but wrong swank 23:50:30 lisppaste: MY GAWD MY EYES!!!! 23:51:00 WarWeasle: try it out 23:51:01 Guthur: When I'm in doubt, I reinstall. But That's the weeny was. 23:51:06 minion: memo for Fare: http://paste.lisp.org/display/88765#2 23:51:07 Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks. 23:51:46 Adlai: It will eat my soul. In fact, since I looked at it I'm already damned. I should kill myself before your code turns me into an abomination. 23:52:12 WarWeasle: you shall post that oneliner on #perl and watch when they notice it's not perl 23:52:15 universal statements about the real world generall tend to be false, that one obviously so 23:52:23 *generally 23:52:26 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:52:29 -!- troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:52:36 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 23:52:48 troussan [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:56 p_l: It will still run in perl. It just won't do the same thing. 23:52:56 p_l have you tried it yet 23:53:02 or have they banned you 23:53:10 at to whether or not mccarthy uses lisp, or did until recently, is that known? 23:53:11 hhh 23:53:16 *as to 23:53:59 Mccarthy is like 82 doubt he does much hacking these days 23:54:21 he probably sits on an arm chair dreaming up cool stuff for other people to do 23:54:39 Guthur: never say never... I heard of a guy that started flying when he was 96, at 98 he was delivering newspapers by dropping them from small aircraft 23:54:55 minion: memo for Fare: Have you had any testers for XCVB for CCL? 23:54:55 Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks. 23:55:27 -!- troussan is now known as trr 23:55:36 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 23:56:49 his site indicates political interests, some technical but he doesn't appear to publishing on CS any more 23:57:27 some people, e.g. Chomsky are quite active at that age 23:58:22 Lycurgus: I hope I still want to do this when I'm older. 23:58:27 unless, the mind goes or something else gives out, there's no reason for individuals pursuing intellectual careers to retire 23:59:32 well I've been doing it for about 4 decades now, and the general attrition rate for the standard professional dilletante is about 7 years