00:03:50 -!- malsyned [n=malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:04:52 rvirding: some black boxes are the accumulation of decades of experience and hacking. Even if I were to look, I wouldn't understand half the design choices (or even state the alternatives). 00:05:50 true, but no harm in just taking a little peek. 00:06:02 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:51 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:08:35 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:12:53 -!- whr [n=user@chello084010174133.chello.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:14:16 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:17:23 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:17:33 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 00:26:31 ace4016 [i=ace4016@76.170.129.134] has joined #lisp 00:27:10 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 00:27:15 Gah! Warn people before you put snippets of some book in your blog. I haven't read those interviews, yet. 00:28:19 tmh: spoiler warning? 00:28:59 wgl: Well, I don't know about spoiler, but it did contain quotes from C@W and I prefer to see those in the context of the interview, first. 00:31:55 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.242.197] has joined #lisp 00:33:40 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h52n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:38:07 tmh: I would have stuck it into c@w, but no minion, and gigamonkey is off. 00:41:44 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-75-145.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 00:43:39 minion: memo for tcr: in WITH-SEQUENCE-ITERATOR, it's not clear whether (iterator-name) is a place or only available as a setfable function. I assume it's the former. It's also not clear whether that place will evaluate to the old or the new value once it's been setfed (again, I assume sanity). 00:43:39 Remembered. I'll tell tcr when he/she/it next speaks. 00:44:02 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:11 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.134.234] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:44:51 Could someone please tell me how to convert a number to a string as in from 10 to "10"? 00:45:47 princ-to-string 00:45:52 clhs princ-to-string 00:45:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_to_.htm 00:46:08 (fe[nl]ix wins.) 00:46:31 Thanks much! 00:46:55 I was looking all over the HyperSpec but couldn't find something like taht 00:47:26 Keep on lisping in the free world. 00:47:39 Or use (format nil ...) 00:47:58 format did come to mind though I didn't know that I could do that 00:48:07 why do you need a string? 00:48:11 Or there's with-output-to-string. 00:48:33 I want to append a random number to a string that is going to be the name of a file 00:49:18 mkstemp. 00:50:01 -!- Samy [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:50:31 pkhuong: is that the name of a function? 00:50:46 posix mkstemp 00:50:46 http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007908799/xsh/mkstemp.html 00:51:01 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:51:27 I see, thanks. 00:57:00 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@246-107.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 01:02:04 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [] 01:04:00 ramus`_ [n=ramus@adsl-99-136-194-35.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:21 emmy [n=em@cpe-98-14-154-71.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:10:54 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@76.170.129.134] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:11:02 dfdf [n=aerw@126-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 01:11:03 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-129-134.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:16:29 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:16:36 -!- emmy is now known as emma 01:18:10 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-147-170.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:18:59 rwx1 [n=ralph@76.244.150.49] has joined #lisp 01:19:46 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-233-236-102.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:52 -!- rwx1 [n=ralph@76.244.150.49] has left #lisp 01:21:08 rwx1 [n=ralph@76.244.150.49] has joined #lisp 01:22:26 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:22:42 -!- rwx1 [n=ralph@76.244.150.49] has quit [Client Quit] 01:23:51 -!- ramus`_ is now known as ramus` 01:25:52 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-33-92-164.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:20 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442868.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:35:58 -!- demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-217-197.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:37:27 -!- metasyntax` [n=metasynt@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["quitting"] 01:45:52 pkhuong: You mentioned earlier that I should spawn 1 thread per core, but can I confine a thread to a single core or do I have to rely on the implementation or OS to manage which core the thread is on? 01:46:21 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@204.52.135.62] has quit ["leaving"] 01:46:40 you could, but you can usually (i.e. if you don't use ck's brainfsck scheduler ;) assume the OS knows what it's doing (assuming your implementation exposes OS threads). 01:46:49 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:47:04 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 01:47:10 ISTR seeing something a while back about core affinity control for SBCL threads, but I forget where and who by. 01:47:34 nyef: nikodemus posted a small package on his blog some time last summer (?). 01:47:55 Quite possibly what I'm thinking of. 01:47:55 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:48:44 pkhuong: After reading today, I'm thinking the best way to do this is to use ChanL and spawn X threads with a loop reading from an input channel that then calls the function. As I understand it, I'll need to send those threads some signal at the end to leave the loop. 01:49:05 And finish the threads 01:49:24 tmh: that's more complex than what often happens in scientific computing. 01:50:33 pkhuong: Really? It seems pretty simple to me, that way I'm not spawning new threads all over the place. Although, it's not clear to me that that is what ChanL does, it seems to have a thread pool, but I don't see any way to control the size. 01:50:55 -!- seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:51:18 You can often get away with a simple distribution scheme, either pre-assign 1/8th of the work to each thread (work units 0 to n/8, etc), or a global work queue that gets filled once by a single thread with largish work units and then is only accessed to pop elements by the workers. 01:51:21 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has quit [] 01:52:41 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:53:25 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:54 A fully static assignment is simple and minimises communications overhead. It doesn't give you magic load balancing if some sections are much easier to compute though. 01:55:06 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-xzwsdvpjlwreistk] has quit [] 01:57:20 Hmm, I'm pretty ignorant about the parallel code implementation details. At this point, I'm going to go with the one way that I'm confident I can do it and worry about alternatives after I've studied a little more. I ordered "Foundations of Multithreaded, Parallel, and Distributed Programming" ~ Gregory R. Andrews. Hopefully I'll understand these things better after going through that. 02:02:14 emacspha` [n=user@134.215.217.86] has joined #lisp 02:03:00 iiuc, your code is something like "do 36 times: var = max(map fn ...)"? 02:03:59 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.221.109] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 02:04:25 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:57 aeron [n=aerrant_@129.101.136.195] has joined #lisp 02:04:59 Almost, it's 36 data sets where it's do 850,000 times: var = max of 8 calculations for 36 data sets. 02:05:26 where the 8 calculations each loop around 2,500 times 02:05:32 how do I build a "tags table" for any CL library in SLIME so that I can use M-.? 02:05:33 felideon, memo from fusss: the updated ucw tutorial is no longer in your dropbox, and the links are broken 02:05:33 felideon, memo from gigamonkey: Thanks for the c@w errata. 02:05:34 can anyone give me some hints for writing an append function using only the most common builtins (like car, cdr, cons, cadr) to just add an item to the end of a list? :) 02:06:35 tmh: so they're all independent? 02:06:40 (the data sets) 02:07:16 The 36 data sets are independent, each of the 850,000 elements is independent and then each of the 8 calculations is independent. 02:07:33 There is a lot of opportunity for parallelization. 02:07:42 minion: help 02:07:43 There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms". 02:08:32 I need to store 850,000 max values. 02:10:36 tmh: ah, ok. so it's repeat 850k: compute max of 36 computations. 02:11:14 pkhuong: Heh, no, compute max of 8 for each of 850k, repeat 36 times. 02:11:38 In the end, 36 data sets with 850K max values 02:11:41 each 02:11:54 and each of the 36 * 850k inputs are independent. 02:12:02 Yes 02:12:43 felideon: you compile and load that library and let introspection do its magic. 02:15:51 minion: memo for fusss: thanks, I probably yanked it when I found the c-l.net version. I removed the link now since I already link to it at the the beginning. 02:15:52 Remembered. I'll tell fusss when he/she/it next speaks. 02:15:56 jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 02:16:56 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:18:36 can anyone give me some hints for writing an append function using only the most common builtins (like car, cdr, cons, cadr) to just add an item to the end of a list? :) 02:19:04 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:19:07 -!- emacspha` [n=user@134.215.217.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:19:43 pkhuong: awesome. thanks. 02:20:19 te [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-lzrgtvgptoyxhtvi] has joined #lisp 02:20:23 did lisp inspire smalltalk? 02:20:39 In the sense that Kay thought that lisp got it wrong. 02:21:12 smalltalk's departure from lisp seems so slight 02:21:22 It's actually fairly radical. 02:21:24 granted i dont know a heck of a lot of lisp (yet (":)")) 02:21:42 Kay was disappointed by special forms in lisp. 02:21:44 Zhivago: care to expand if you're in the mood? 02:21:53 I'm deeply interested by lisp and languages in general 02:22:00 s/by/in 02:22:14 So he decided to try to approach the problem by decomposition into computers rather than functions. 02:22:17 I'd love to know what your summary of Kay's departure is 02:22:24 That's it. 02:22:42 That seems slight, no? 02:22:48 What are some of the effects of that approach? 02:23:02 functions seem like computers to me 02:23:05 they compute values 02:23:12 Well, that's not what computers do. 02:23:23 computers are more dynamic? 02:23:34 You can have conversations with computers. 02:23:41 ahh, message passing 02:23:47 *ah-ha moment* 02:24:23 so computers are sort of like interfaces? with their own gadgets and computers? 02:24:40 *tmh* experiences his first parallel bug. 02:24:52 tmh: that's better than your first linear bug 02:25:02 te: Well, you can decompose many computers into groups of simpler computers. 02:25:06 My test case has only one element and the code expects at least 4. 02:25:27 So it kept waiting for more input. 02:25:35 Zhivago: is this sort of the birth of Java? 02:25:37 Ruby, etc? 02:25:45 Classes/methods? 02:26:08 Objects/methods, with objects that can reference their parent objects, etc. 02:26:21 Blame those on simula. 02:26:36 You sir, are damn smart. 02:26:50 It's a pleasure talking to someone with such an understanding of the history. 02:27:21 You can blame simula for smalltalk as well, if you like. 02:27:38 There's a nice paper that Kay wrote on an aeroplane which explains his thinking, retrospectively. 02:28:00 The one thing I think is desperately missing from the CS curriculum is a series of history courses on computer science. 02:28:32 Zhivago: I haven't read any of Kay's papers, except one I guess, the one that is fairly recent about how we ought to teach programming 02:28:35 http://gagne.homedns.org/~tgagne/contrib/EarlyHistoryST.html 02:28:41 I've only seen his lectures, which I found really inspiring. 02:28:45 You'll probably find this one relevant. 02:29:05 Zhivago: are you an academic? 02:29:11 -!- coyo [n=alex@ppp-70-129-141-101.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:29:13 I'm not trying to pigeonhole you-- but I'm curioous 02:29:13 No, it should have worked for a single element, I have another problem. 02:29:15 curious* 02:29:26 because I'm sort of interested in the academic path myself 02:29:35 te: No. 02:30:04 Would you be offended if I asked how old you are? 02:30:12 ;X 02:30:27 te: I don't date people I meet on the internet. 02:30:38 heh 02:30:44 I ask out of a strange curiosity 02:31:04 Basically I don't know anyone who writes lisp, knows what lisp is, or cares to learn about it 02:31:23 coyo [n=alex@ppp-70-129-141-101.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:29 te: That's reasonable. Lisp is not a language for sensible people. 02:31:40 So I'm always very curious to meet people who are interested in it, to see if there's some common thread there maybe 02:31:48 to learn a little more about myself I guess 02:31:55 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:32:14 Zhivago: I think you've just answered my query perfectly. 02:32:21 I am definitely not sensible 02:32:24 Therefore I am here 02:32:28 people who learn lisp are precious, precious snowflakes 02:32:33 hahahahaa 02:32:40 *te* wipes a tear 02:33:20 Are people who learn lisp the same people who *finished* The Brothers Karamazov? 02:33:38 They write Brothers Karamazov slash fanfic. 02:33:54 For sport or "the joy of it"? 02:34:08 Wow, my first attempt at parallel coding resulted in a deadlock. awesome. 02:34:58 at least you learned about deadlocks early on :) 02:35:25 -!- te is now known as qed 02:35:54 phadthai: I like your noodles. 02:36:42 Xach: why is LiverJournal commonly used by Lispers? 02:36:51 s/LiverJournal/LiveJournal 02:36:55 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:53 Out of curiousity, what have you bound slime-close-all-parens-in-sexp 02:37:55 hmm any suggestion about validating type specifiers at runtime? I fail to see a standard CL way to do it without implementing it from scratch (there'd still be implementation-specific cases to watch for then), and (declare (type ... seem to simply be ignored by some implementations too, so it can't be relied on to signal an error 02:38:02 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:38:06 qed: thanks, so do I :) 02:38:18 phadthai: check-type? 02:38:27 phadthai: Do you read comp.lang.lisp? 02:38:42 felideon: i used it because it was easy at the time i started blogging (2002? 2003? something like that...) 02:38:45 phadthai: There was a recent discussion of that issue. 02:38:51 felideon: i don't know why others started. 02:39:47 hmm I although check-type didn't seem what I needed, if I can rely on its error it might do it actually, thanks I'll try 02:40:30 tmh: although I read parts of comp.lang.lisp archives I don't 02:41:23 jenia [n=jenia@modemcable148.172-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:41:35 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:41:41 hello 02:41:47 can someone help me 02:42:10 jenia: Let me ask magic 8 ball. 02:42:15 i.e. in this case I'm not interested in testing if a place fits a particular specifyer, but more in validating the specifyer itself 02:42:48 s/specifyer/specifier/ 02:42:51 I want to use LispWorks as the IDE for writing lisp programs 02:42:56 jenia: You're in luck (magic-8-ball "Can someone help me?") => "Most likely" 02:43:10 Xach: I see. Probably the same/similar reason---since it was one of the first blogging platforms. 02:43:10 how to compile code? 02:43:22 Although, in fairness, it might have be referring to me. 02:44:04 jenia: Is it a licensed or personal edition? 02:44:16 personal 02:44:27 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:44:48 The personal won't compile code into an executable, it should compile code into an FASL, though. 02:48:26 are mixins also said to be inherited, or added to a class? 02:49:49 hmm for both type-check and typep the consequences are undefined if type specifier is invalid, according to the hyperspec 02:50:13 pkhuong pasted "Barrier with reduce of max" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88652 02:50:19 redb1ue [i=star@ppp038.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:50:27 pkhuong: Reading now, thanks 02:50:46 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:54:34 jan247_ [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 02:56:24 -!- jan247_ [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Client Quit] 02:58:14 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:59:35 felideon: mixins is an abstract concept involving the way multiple classes can be inherited from. 02:59:40 emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-11-230.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:59:53 there's no such thing as a "mixin" in lisp: only classes and multiple inheritance. 03:00:08 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:01:11 in that respect, a mixin tends to be a class meant to be inherited from -- usually in a multiple-inheritance context, and to add behavior to a new class that way. 03:01:27 -!- coyo [n=alex@ppp-70-129-141-101.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit ["sudo nmap -A -PN localhost"] 03:01:53 sykopomp: right, gotcha. and in CLOS is it always the case that mixins 03:02:12 "mixins" don't define slots or inherit from superclasses? 03:02:22 no, that's not necessarily the case. 03:02:28 jenia pasted "LISP" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88653 03:02:45 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:02:48 mixins may actually -have- to define slots, depending on the behavior they're defining. 03:03:56 felideon: mixin-ness is an informal intent. 03:06:48 ok, so how would one know when to express this intent or not? when should I call something a mixin? 03:07:26 Usually, 'mixins' are just classes that you only wrote with the intent of adding behavior. In general, you don't use mixins directly, you inherit from them. 03:08:03 felideon: when the class is not meant to be instanciated (abstract), nor meant to be inherited from alone (not just a regular abstract base class). 03:09:48 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:09:48 Ok, that makes sense. 03:10:31 instantiated* 03:11:40 *felideon* is trying to heal scars and burns thinking Simula-style is the only way to do OOP 03:13:16 felideon: You might think of slots as being a kind of bus for classes to talk to each other (and themselves) over time, and of the superclasses as being a cooperating group. 03:13:30 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:13:46 Zhivago: I totally can't see your metaphor. 03:15:27 chavo_ [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:29 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:15:45 sykopomp: I'm getting a no applicable method for the generic function send with a bounded-channel argument. 03:16:19 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:17:10 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 03:17:18 tmh: (send channel value) <-- are you sure your args are in the right order? 03:19:04 sykopomp: Thank you. 03:19:08 ;) 03:19:39 tmh: is the documentation incorrect somewhere? 03:20:00 sykopomp: Nope, I had it correct 3 out of 4 times, but apparently 75% is fail. :-) 03:20:43 :) 03:23:35 -!- jenia [n=jenia@modemcable148.172-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:25:05 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.40.222] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:27:20 Could you guys explain how car and cdr read a list, how does it know if you're calling a function on a function, or a fuction on a value 03:27:23 at the car of a list 03:29:35 qed: lisp is a lisp-2, symbols can represent both a function and a value 03:29:37 qed: you can explain car&cdr with pointers, saying that car dereferences the first half of the cons cell, and cdr the second 03:29:56 could you explain cons to me in your own words? 03:30:00 sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:05 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:30:10 qed: maybe you should read a book. 03:30:13 sykopomp: what is clojure? 03:30:13 cons cell = a pair of lisp pointers 03:30:24 p_l: oh duh right 03:30:27 qed: please start making sense. 03:30:34 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.23.253] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:30:45 sykopomp: a lisp-2, aren't there 'levels' of lisp 03:30:57 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 03:30:59 qed: also, if you're looking for the jvm-based Clojure lisp, there's #lisp@freenode.net 03:31:10 p_l: #clojure* 03:31:18 sykopomp: ... right 03:31:19 *qed* nods 03:31:29 *p_l* should really start sleeping regularly 03:31:30 I know, I came in here because I'm learning elisp 03:31:37 and I know more about clojure than lisp atm 03:31:47 this is channel is for common lisp, not elisp. 03:31:48 qed: that's #emacs I guess ^^; 03:31:52 if you want advice on elisp, og to #emacs. 03:31:54 go* 03:32:01 though certain stuff is similar - like CONS cell 03:32:12 p_l: i'm trying to feel out the differences 03:32:23 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:32:31 by asking innocent questions 03:32:37 qed: ask them in #emacs. 03:32:38 minion: gentleintro 03:32:40 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``gentleintro''. 03:32:49 minion: tell qed about gentle 03:32:50 qed: have a look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 03:32:53 sykopomp: im elisp and lisp are quite similar 03:32:56 pkhuong: thanks :) 03:32:59 s/im// 03:33:12 qed: not that much, I think :D 03:33:21 qed: interesting affirmation from someone who knows neither. 03:33:27 qed: the first chapter or two of that book explains cons cells nicely 03:33:58 qed: sure. C++ and JavaScript are pretty similar, too, I guess :) 03:34:42 sykopomp: So, if I have tasks in the pool that are still alive, but the channel to that task is closed, how do I kill the task? 03:34:45 sykopomp: all languages are 03:35:25 tmh: if you're just developing stuff, you can just kill the thread that's running the task, but that's a pretty bad idea, in general. 03:35:33 you -might- get away with it during development, is all :) 03:35:46 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trie 03:35:47 so sexy 03:35:51 if you want to run a task only for a limited time, then make sure the task terminates. 03:35:52 b 03:36:17 Samy [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:22 sykopomp: heh, how about something like (loop for task in (pooled-tasks) do (kill (task-thread task))) 03:36:41 you shouldn't do that in regular code. 03:36:50 although it's usually okay while you're developing. 03:37:13 there's no guarantee that those threads will terminate cleanly, or that they will even terminate. 03:37:32 (scieneer threads seem to be particularly stubborn about dying, for example) 03:37:59 and you might actually break everything if unwind-protected forms used by the thread pool don't run. 03:38:32 Ok, I understand, I'm developing and had some threads with a loop for receiving data and then executing a function. The loop only terminates when sent a termination value. The function aborted before the termination message was sent. 03:38:53 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [] 03:39:12 right, in that case, you can try kill. That's what it's for. 03:39:25 Just did, now there are no pooled tasks. 03:39:29 just keep in mind, nothing is guaranteed to work when you use it, and you may actually have to end up restarting lisp. 03:42:11 -!- m7d [n=lriley@pool-71-102-232-43.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:45:20 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:46:11 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:20 sykopomp: When you say nothing is guaranteed to work, do you mean just the thread introspection, or everything? 03:46:49 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:47:43 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:47:43 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 03:50:23 It only seems to want to use 2 cores at a time. 03:50:56 tmh: everything that involves inspecting/handling/killing threads. It's very implementation-dependent, and really not meant to be reliably. 03:51:29 sykopomp: Ok. Will it ever be reliable, or will it always be something for development? 03:51:31 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-212-106.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:42 tmh: I believe the latter is the case. 03:51:51 could it be said that mixins establish a "has-a" relationship between a class, rather than an "is-a 03:51:54 "? 03:52:14 I don't know much about actual implementation of threads. This is directly related to your lisp implementation, not to the way chanl handles things. 03:52:32 sykopomp: only using 2 cores? 03:52:54 tmh: yup. Make sure your threads are running. If they are, it's out of my hands. 03:53:20 your algorithm might be blocking in a way that only allows two threads to run at a time, of course. 03:53:51 then again, I guess there could be a bug with thread pools, somehow. 03:54:15 sykopomp: That's the problem. I'm not really sure how to identify where the bottleneck is. 03:54:31 In a lisp that uses church-numerals to represent positive integers, how would one similarly represen rationals/reals? 03:54:49 s/represen/represent 03:55:48 of course there's "fractional iteration", but i wondered if anyone knew an easier way. 03:55:48 Since I've been talking about this all day, let me paste it. 03:55:57 tmh: you're doing thread management yourself, in a way, aren't you? 03:56:16 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:56:51 sykopomp: Yes, that is a good point. I wasn't sure what was going on underneath the hood and I wanted to reuse the threads. 03:57:04 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.242.197] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:57:15 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.242.197] has joined #lisp 03:57:44 tmh pasted "Using ChanL" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88654 03:58:24 tmh: chanl's thread pool keeps a certain number of threads alive once they've finished their tasks. 03:58:48 so if you run something that creates 8 threads, and, once it's finished, you run it again, you'll reuse the existing threads. 03:59:09 the thing to note is that chanl will continue to create new threads if all running threads are busy, even beyond its soft-limit. 03:59:33 sykopomp: Ok, look at %init-damage-thread in the labels form, that is where I'm polling for input. 04:01:44 *sykopomp* tries to figure out what's going on... 04:02:41 oh 04:03:02 nevermind. *keeps reading* 04:03:34 so you're saying this ends up using only two cores? 04:03:38 what implementation/OS? 04:03:46 Yes, SBCL on RHEL. 04:03:54 hmmm 04:04:04 I can just run this, right? 04:04:07 let me test it out 04:04:08 I'm running it under slime, if that matters. 04:04:41 tmh: can you give me a valid sample call? 04:04:51 (fatigue-damage ...)? 04:05:55 axial-stress-fit is a hash table, around 850k entries and rainflow data is a list of triples around 2,500. 04:06:02 oh goodness. 04:06:04 :| 04:06:36 well, then... let's see 04:06:44 I'm actually testing it on a hash-table of 10000 entries. 04:06:50 tmh: you can confirm that all 8 threads are starting up, right? 04:07:01 (length (pooled-threads)) => 8? 04:07:05 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:07:24 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-233-236-102.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:07:32 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 04:07:52 sykopomp: I'll add in the appropriate line and see. 04:07:58 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 04:08:51 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:09:24 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:10:27 Hmm, that's interesting, I was just watching the graphical CPU history and all 8 cores had load, but only around 30%. So, apparently, I chosen to split the task poorly. 04:11:16 I've 04:11:38 guess so :) 04:11:46 well, I'm a lot less worried now :P 04:12:10 Good morning! 04:12:29 Ah, the joys of paralellization. Why haven't they made compilers do it automagically, yet? 04:12:48 Because it's hard? 04:14:51 morning beach 04:14:51 does Patrick Stein hang out here? 04:16:59 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:19:02 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:19:08 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 04:21:08 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:25:53 tmh: because we've since realised that magic is a non-goal. 04:27:26 Heh. Joy, another deadlock and now I have 995 threads. 04:28:11 tmh: honestly? I'd recommend splitting up that function into smaller chunks. 04:30:44 sykopomp: The problem was with my logic. I tried a buffered channel with pexec, only to realize that the buffer would fill and send would start blocking. 04:32:01 Well, that function is ugly, I've been in get it done mode. 04:33:06 Ugh, 11:30pm. I need to call it a day. 04:34:28 Things sometimes sort themselves out when I sleep. 04:34:33 In my head, at least. 04:37:56 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:40:48 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qavnxavovtmhfgyc] has joined #lisp 04:42:47 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qavnxavovtmhfgyc] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:43:05 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-impgihkzscvzmyaq] has joined #lisp 04:48:05 All of those threads are reading the rainflow-data list at the same time, could that be causing the problem? 04:48:10 8 threads reading from a single list. 04:49:58 -!- redb1ue [i=star@ppp038.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:50:35 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:51:01 Anyway, thanks for all of the help today. 04:54:12 no problem. Sorry I couldn't help more :( 04:56:12 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:56:14 h3 [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 04:57:54 I really appreciate the help you provided. I need to go to bed and pick this up tomorrow. I think I'm going to provide a copy of the rainflow-data list to each thread and see if that helps. 04:58:11 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:59:17 Ugh, copy-list is shallow, isn't it. 05:02:14 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:31 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:02:38 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-qmhkicsjadduxjfh] has joined #lisp 05:03:17 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:39 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:06:53 ramus`_ [n=ramus@99.23.141.112] has joined #lisp 05:07:07 tmh: See copy-tree though. 05:07:42 Thanks, I'll see it in the morning. 05:07:46 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 05:10:34 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:15:35 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:15:55 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:16:14 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:16:23 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 05:17:06 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:19:40 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-136-194-35.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:20:03 -!- ramus`_ is now known as ramus` 05:20:17 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 05:23:53 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:32:30 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:33:47 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 05:35:43 Davidbrcz [n=david@212.198.78.230] has joined #lisp 05:35:59 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 05:36:44 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-150-49.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:37:42 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:40 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 05:39:10 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 05:41:09 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 05:43:28 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:45:00 I wonder what bad things could happen if one starts modifying a system that was installed using clbuild. 05:45:41 I suppose for one thing, they were all checked out anonymously, so modifications could not be checked back in then. 05:46:32 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 05:48:20 yeah. 05:48:20 although you could prepare patches from them? 05:48:30 least if it's a git repos, dunno how darcs does it. probably the same. 05:48:51 I suppose so. 05:50:45 darcs rec; darcs send -o /tmp/x.patch 05:51:03 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212.198.78.230] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:57:25 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 05:59:01 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-134.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:01:29 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:02:40 aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has joined #lisp 06:12:57 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:15:45 with the DVCSs, it's trivial to push from such a copy to a write-enabled remote, it doesn't matter where you got it from 06:16:34 with CVS, it's also possible to change the root (see cvschroot), but note that for c-l.net CVS projects there's a configuration option in clbuild.conf which you can set so that it fetches them over ssh in the first place 06:18:11 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 06:26:33 lichtblau: Thanks! 06:27:02 serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06f961.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:27:06 good morning 06:27:13 hello serichsen 06:27:27 hello, beach :) 06:29:12 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:34:23 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:34:32 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:15 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:29 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:43:46 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:46:57 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 06:47:49 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:52:26 hello 06:53:37 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:53:55 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:57:22 hello mrSpec 06:58:11 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:58:24 good morning 06:58:31 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:28 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 06:59:32 hello mvilleneuve 07:00:22 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:03:40 -!- galdor__ [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["leaving"] 07:03:59 galdor [n=galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:12 -!- galdor [n=galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:05:28 galdor [n=galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:36 devD [n=devD@unaffiliated/dev29aug] has joined #lisp 07:12:16 I am a student and started learning lisp, my college uses corrman lisp in windows computers but I am a linux user at my home so please suggest me a good editor to do lisp programming in GNU/Linux 07:14:05 minion: tell devD about slime 07:14:09 devD: have a look at slime: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/slime 07:14:31 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-212-106.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:14:53 *devD* checking the url 07:15:07 minion, arbscht_ thanks I am checking it. 07:15:08 do you want to be checking it ? 07:15:28 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:15:48 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:16:05 minion, I mean just curious 07:16:06 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 07:16:17 who is playing 07:16:27 minion is a bot :) 07:17:44 arbscht_, oh, I have quoted his name that is why it said so. 07:20:31 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:21:43 Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has joined #lisp 07:21:59 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:22:01 hehehe 07:22:29 Taggnostr2 [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 07:22:32 minion can be quite plausible sometimes. 07:27:06 mhm wolfram alpha kills my firefox 07:29:16 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:29:39 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@86.50.68.11] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 07:32:33 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 07:36:22 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:36:32 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 07:36:36 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 07:36:51 borism [n=boris@195.50.205.198] has joined #lisp 07:37:26 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:39:07 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:41:29 -!- Taggnostr2 [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:41:43 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:44:02 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:02 -!- dv___ [n=dv@85-127-109-82.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Client Quit] 07:45:46 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:46:14 What's everyone's favorite XML parser? 07:46:50 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:50:46 cxml 07:51:09 -!- gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:51:13 that cannot be the right answer because i don't have a favourite XML parser 07:52:51 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-36-115.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:53:53 -!- Samy [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:56:46 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:57:22 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:58:46 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:00:40 cxml it is 08:01:56 cxml has worked, i guess, as well as any xml parser can 08:02:27 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:02:49 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:03:08 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:03:47 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:04:06 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 08:05:26 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 08:06:19 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:07:40 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:07:44 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 08:08:16 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-qmhkicsjadduxjfh] has quit [] 08:08:26 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:12:59 stoop [n=stoop@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:36 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:18:54 ejs [n=eugen@91.124.236.87] has joined #lisp 08:23:22 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-222-139.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:33 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:24:33 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:25:12 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:25:33 KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:26:28 is clisp's loop broken for longish lists (2190)? 08:26:28 fusss, memo from felideon: thanks, I probably yanked it when I found the c-l.net version. I removed the link now since I already link to it at the the beginning. 08:27:19 (loop for line in (cl-store:restore "urls.txt") do (print line)) has no effect. even if i can see it working .. 08:27:49 nor does DOLIST or plain DO 08:27:59 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@88.73.196.251] has joined #lisp 08:28:38 it's more of a printing problem actually; even if I pass an explicit stream argument to I/O functions, I just can't see anything get printed 08:33:32 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:34:24 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:34:48 ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 08:34:53 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:35:06 I really need to force some outputs to go straight to the repl; writing to *trace-output* or *debug-io* doesn't seem to have any effect. clisp/slime-head/emacs23/win32 08:36:14 bizzaro 08:36:18 CL-USER> (format t "hello") 08:36:20 NIL 08:37:19 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 08:37:41 QinGW3 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:37:55 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:39:41 -!- QinGW3 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:39:49 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:40:38 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:41:13 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:41:23 rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:42:11 clhs finish-output 08:42:11 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_finish.htm 08:42:14 clhs force-output 08:42:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_finish.htm 08:44:19 Hmm, no org-babel-common-lisp. 08:44:51 hi, I have a SUID program and I want to change its default environment (e.g. LD_LIBRARY_PATH), is there a way to do that? 08:45:34 huangjs: #unix is somewhere around i guess 08:46:01 jdz: yeah, but I feel more comfortable here. 08:46:19 huangjs: think about the kittens! 08:48:32 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:48:44 Hi guys, having a newbie moment. I have a function: add(x). In the function I have: (cons '(x 0 0) my-list), now the literal '(x 0 0) gets added, as opposed to: add(1), which should yield: (cons '(1 0 0) my-list). But if I remove the quote, it attempts to evaluate X as a function, what can I do as an alternative? 08:48:51 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:49:24 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:11 ol3``` [n=user@82.113.121.86] has joined #lisp 08:51:31 The alternative would be: (cons (cons x '(0 0)) my-list) 08:51:32 ArtVandalae: try (list x 0 0) instead of '(x 0 0 08:51:33 ) 08:51:38 Thanks jdz 08:51:53 umm, not exactly as i typed 08:52:07 -!- ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has left #lisp 08:52:34 no, scratch that, i said what i meant to say 08:52:57 :) that's alright, it fixed it for me, cheers 08:52:57 ArtVandalae: and then go read some lisp tutorial 08:53:07 and what quote does 08:53:29 okay 08:54:30 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:00:09 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.236.91] has joined #lisp 09:03:18 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:03:48 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:05:51 i think i might have written a perfect web surfer emulator in CL :-) 09:06:15 down to passing IE and ASP.NET specific cookies and session variables via drakma 09:06:46 did you know that ASP.NET maintains a user's entire session history has a giant uuencoded array on client side? 09:07:18 MS's cookie extension allows them to store megabytes of junk .. which pretty much ties people to IE to use certain web apps/sites 09:07:39 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:09:47 tons of banks are using __doPostBack as some kind of port-knocking security mechanism. js requests a document at a certain path and posts your session in hidden variables. the remote server authenticates you and send you a 302 redirect and you're allowed to use the document for a specific window of time before you have to repeat the process 09:09:55 fusss: IE stores that on the client side? 09:10:02 yes 09:10:11 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:11:20 once i find a way to capture the first authentication cookie without using IE, i think i can automate plenty of "IE-only" websites and scrape the hell out of them 09:12:09 JavaSymphony's SiteMesh does a similar thing but they only allow you to rewrite sites that you control. mine is a rogue web UI rewriter; allowin you to put any face on any site :-) 09:12:09 do you do this for testing? 09:12:39 it was part of my work 2 days ago, now it's just a pet project of mine :-) 09:13:05 i wanna let a cron job do my online banking 09:13:14 :) 09:13:54 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:14:45 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 09:14:50 -!- devD [n=devD@unaffiliated/dev29aug] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:15:05 fusss: the asp.net thingie can be turned off, depends on how the webapp is written. 09:15:15 fusss: but the feature is *on* by default... 09:15:45 fusss: and many monkeys don't know how it works and what they should keep in their state 09:15:49 jdz: dunno, everything i know about ASP.NET i learned from Ethereal 09:20:05 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 09:22:08 [Jackal] [n=Jackal@118.95.54.252] has joined #lisp 09:22:37 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81.226.253.54] has joined #lisp 09:24:24 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:24:35 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 09:25:42 ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 09:26:04 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 09:34:49 *lnostdal* recalls there being some "remote control" thing for browsers .. (server --> browser) 09:35:13 someone talking about writing a lisp back-end for it (it was a testing framework) a while back IIRC 09:35:27 talked* 09:35:47 -!- aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:37:12 demmel1 [n=Adium@c004.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 09:37:42 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:41:12 kuwabara2 [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has joined #lisp 09:41:12 -!- kuwabara1 [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:42:02 gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 09:42:19 hmm, why does SBCL escape symbols like _a3 (=> |_A3|)? 09:44:20 potential number rules iirc 09:46:36 but it starts with underscore... 09:47:45 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p579152AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:48:29 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:51:02 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_caa.htm 09:51:21 see point #3 09:51:47 addled [n=alawson@198.Red-81-37-201.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:58 brill [n=brill@0x5da22faa.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.hrnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:52:41 Xach: hmm, point #1 seems more relevant to me 09:53:08 It's possible to use clozure to build a cocoa app. Does anyone know if this works for iphone as well? 09:53:27 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:53:31 Xach: too bad "extension character" is not in glossary 09:53:51 jdz: too bad, but it's listed right there. 09:54:20 brill: does not work. 09:54:36 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:54:40 Ah. Thought as much. 09:55:01 Compiling for arm... 09:56:15 Xach: anyway, thanks for the pointer. 09:56:43 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-180-249-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:57:02 peddie [n=peddie@c-67-180-249-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:29 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:58:23 friendadv [n=rjif@189.71.140.156] has joined #lisp 09:58:33 good morning 09:58:47 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 09:58:58 jdz: http://xach.livejournal.com/155568.html is how i encountered it 09:59:12 i would know how to integrate lisp language with GCC compiler? 09:59:31 could u help me? 09:59:36 friendadv: integrate in what sense? 10:00:06 using C processing with lisp lists 10:00:06 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@193.136.206.174] has joined #lisp 10:00:07 http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/MiddleEndLispTranslator springs to mind, but it depends on what you mean 10:00:23 friendadv: cffi can help you do that. 10:00:25 thank u very much 10:00:36 i am new in lisp 10:01:07 i would like to use it for genetc programming 10:01:10 what kind of processing will you do in C? 10:01:46 i would like to process lists in lisp and get result from C program 10:01:48 like 10:01:54 for example 10:02:14 i want to make a simulation of a genetic programming 10:02:36 but in lisp only is i little slowly 10:03:14 i would like to use only lisp list processing but with c function evaluation 10:03:31 like in lua language 10:03:32 common lisp can be pretty fast. sbcl can generate efficient machine code. 10:03:41 ireally 10:03:50 thank u very much 10:03:57 you can look at the disassembly and tune your code and declarations to make it faster. 10:04:14 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.141.112] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:04:28 can i ask more newbie lisp questions for u? 10:04:29 friendadv: i use Common Lisp to create and compress PNG graphics at http://wigflip.com/ ... the work is done in Common Lisp, not C libraries. it is pretty fast. 10:04:45 interesting 10:04:54 very good 10:05:07 friendadv: i recommend learning the basics of Common Lisp from a good book like http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ or Paradigms of AI Programming 10:05:23 friendadv: I don't really like questions that are so basic they are covered by any introduction to Lisp 10:05:25 thaks the reference 10:05:42 others may feel differently 10:05:44 i my university we have this book 10:05:58 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 10:06:10 but dont say if i can compile lisp programs 10:06:13 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 10:06:21 again 10:06:35 excuse me the weak questions 10:06:54 because i dont know many thengs in common lisp 10:07:05 and i would lite to know it 10:07:21 it varies by implementation. i use sbcl and i compile applications to a single file with it sometimes. 10:07:37 <[Jackal]> The best way to know Lisp is to learn it. 10:07:41 interesting 10:07:55 but is it usefull for application 10:08:17 is it possibe to build an full application with lisp 10:09:05 friendadv: yes. 10:09:11 great 10:09:13 When optimising functions for perlin and simplex noise in SBCL yesterday I found that liberally peppering (the ...)-forms throughout the code to generate faster code than putting some (declare (type ...))-forms after the defun and lets. Which is a pity since the functions are pretty much unreadable now. 10:09:21 Xach: hmm, regarding the potential number issue: a token is a potential number if it satisfies *all* of the 4 requirements in 2.3.1.1. The point 2 says for letter current input base must be honored; so i think _a3 should not be a potential number... 10:09:21 friendadv: http://www.lissys.demon.co.uk/ is a lisp application. 10:09:25 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:09:57 Xach: i mean, *read-base* is 10 10:10:22 (thanks for you) 10:10:50 maybe i should put this issue on my things-to-look-into-when-i-have-time-which-means-never list 10:11:13 :) 10:12:44 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:12:44 -!- Soulman [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:12:47 -!- friendadv [n=rjif@189.71.140.156] has left #lisp 10:13:05 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-impgihkzscvzmyaq] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:13:30 Soulman [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 10:13:40 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:13:41 -!- brill [n=brill@0x5da22faa.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.hrnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 10:13:56 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zeyawnxnqxmjprur] has joined #lisp 10:14:20 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 10:14:27 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:17:12 mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6D5D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:25:23 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 10:33:05 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:35:58 aerique: that doesn't sound right 10:35:59 tcr, memo from pkhuong: in WITH-SEQUENCE-ITERATOR, it's not clear whether (iterator-name) is a place or only available as a setfable function. I assume it's the former. It's also not clear whether that place will evaluate to the old or the new value once it's been setfed (again, I assume sanity). 10:39:38 pkhuong: Tell me when you're here. 10:41:13 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:41:19 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:43:41 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:45:11 tcr: i hope you didn't get my mail about launchpad wrong... i just wanted to point out that it's better to have a single point of collecting bugs, which is launchpad currently. and if mails are needed, then an auto mailer should be set up for that... 10:46:08 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:46:46 [Jackal_] [n=Jackal@118.95.53.144] has joined #lisp 10:47:36 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 10:49:30 attila_lendvai: Yeah the problem is that launchpad is a) inconvenient for subscription (I prefer gmail for anything with a regular volumne), and b) inconvenient to discuss 10:50:11 and it's pretty much nikodemus only who supervises the bugtracker 10:50:21 sbcl-devel has more eyes 10:50:55 well, i tried to help with a) at least 10:51:29 aerique: I wonder if there exist any code that could use a code-walker for example and insert those the and declare forms? 10:53:22 lharc: compiler does that or I don't understand what you mean... 10:53:28 tcr: launchpad can be used via (GPG-signed) email 10:54:09 Yuuhi`` [i=benni@p5483DF7B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:40 I know 10:55:59 jdz: The problem was, peppering code with 'the' and 'declare' leading to ugly code. 10:56:38 lharc: expert's advice of optimisation (not mine): don't do it. 10:56:54 *on 10:57:10 -!- addled [n=alawson@198.Red-81-37-201.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:57:15 jdz: why not use 'the' and 'declare'? 10:58:09 lharc: the opposite question is more interesting 10:58:20 lharc: how often do you do it? 10:59:25 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:00:05 jdz: true, but considering those cases when needed, it could be done automatically to some degree. 11:00:25 lharc: if it can be done automatically then the compiler shoud do it 11:00:41 the compiler already does it automatically as far as possible; sbcl does type inferring .. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_inference 11:01:23 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:01:31 ..if you increase the 'speed' policy then sbcl will give you hints as to where it cannot determine types automatically 11:03:21 rsynnott_ [n=rsynnott@87-198-231-166.ptr.magnet.ie] has joined #lisp 11:03:30 When the compiler cant go further, you must guide, hence the need for such an tool. 11:05:04 lharc: feel free to use lisppaste to post an example of how you imagine your code walker would help achieve what you imagine 11:06:04 i'm not sure code-walking is the right idea .. if some block of code depends on multiple "external things" which each have no type information it can't really do much, i think 11:06:28 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:06:31 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:06:43 (with-fixnum-arithmetics () (* x (- y z))) 11:07:13 it'd be the wrong place to determine such things .. it seems more natural to add type info. at or "in" those external things (locally; at their sites) .. or something .. i don't know .... 11:08:18 tcr: (locally (declare (type fixnum x y z)) (* x (- y z))) 11:08:53 nope 11:08:58 does not get you fixnum arithmetic 11:09:17 add one THE, then 11:09:26 but the example is contrieved anyway 11:10:14 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483CD86.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:10:56 where do all these declarations go, anyways? Can users ever get access to them for stuff like compiler macros and the like?... 11:11:00 Xof: Any other idea on how I can track down my case of bignum allocation? Ideally, I'd wish I could instrument the compiler to emit a break in such case. 11:11:34 (I guess you can always have a compiler macro that reads through declarations manually and rewrites code accordingly...) 11:11:45 sykopomp, IIUC stuff like sb-c:deftransform (and sb-c:defoptimize) can be used to get hold of the type information 11:12:07 ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 11:12:45 lnostdal: ah. Sounds like something worth looking into.... 11:12:56 ..it'd be great if it was somewhat standardized or something though .. cltl2 does not seem to provide ways to get hold of this(?) .. perhaps cltl3 will? :D 11:13:11 tcr: I usually think very hard 11:13:18 I can't do that for you because I haven't looked at your code 11:13:46 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 11:13:59 (..the cltl2 stuff only gets hold of the type information the user declares "manually" via explicit (declare ..) thingies in his code; i.e. not the types inferred by sbcl .. at least this was my impression last time i looked at this :P ..) 11:14:22 lnostdal: it would be quite nice, but if anything is gonna make it into cltl3, there would probably first need to be a portable library that wrapped a reasonable number of implementations :P 11:14:35 sykopomp, yah .. heh :) 11:14:57 not to mention, I dont even know if this is even possible to have portably :\ 11:15:24 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:15:26 -!- [Jackal] [n=Jackal@118.95.54.252] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:15:40 ..perhaps it could just return T in cases where the compiler doesn't do these kinds of things 11:15:52 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zeyawnxnqxmjprur] has left #lisp 11:15:55 (..or if it finds explicitly added decls. it could return those, as cltl2 does now..) 11:16:25 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-alhogmtfukxfgegr] has joined #lisp 11:16:43 silenius_ [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:34 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:21:15 Xof: Would it strike your interest if I made the code available? 11:22:56 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 11:23:00 knobo [n=user@88.87.57.60] has joined #lisp 11:25:27 my interest but not my immediate attention 11:25:31 I am labouring under tight deadline pressure until Wednesday of next week 11:26:37 Alright 11:29:09 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:30:01 scottmaccal [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has joined #lisp 11:30:29 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 11:32:07 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 11:36:47 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 11:37:08 lharc: a code-walker came to my mind as well, but having just read the discussion here, well... :) 11:38:16 lharc: and like others said: it's just two functions which have their slower more readable reference implementations in the same file 11:38:27 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:38:27 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:38:27 -!- DrForr 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[n=dmelani@c83-253-52-86.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:40:21 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 11:40:27 Adrinael_ [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 11:40:42 rullie_ [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1279405258.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:40:56 -!- DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:41:07 DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:17 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:41:41 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1279405258.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 11:42:06 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-alhogmtfukxfgegr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:42:10 -!- Adrinael_ is now known as Adrinael 11:43:02 -!- Adrinael is now known as Adrinael_ 11:43:19 -!- Adrinael_ is now known as Adrinael 11:47:07 It's official: I have a quantum test failure. 11:47:41 the tests fail pretty regularly when I simply run them, but when I open the buffer (without editing) where either the tests, or the code at fault is, the test passes with flying colors. 11:47:53 *sykopomp* goes mad. 11:51:11 okflo [n=user@91-115-80-144.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 11:52:06 sykopomp: some failure in output handling ? 11:53:04 koollman: nope. 11:53:14 it seems to have stabilized now.... 11:53:19 wfm! 11:54:32 rotate the screen clockwise and try again ;) 11:54:46 you may want to sacrifice a chicken for good measure, too 11:55:18 udzinari [n=user@195.212.29.163] has joined #lisp 11:55:37 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:56:15 tcr pasted "sequence-iterators are fun: MAP-INTO-SUBSEQ" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88664 11:58:11 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:58:31 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 12:00:15 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] 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quit [Client Quit] 12:19:11 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [] 12:20:21 "Additionally sb-sprof includes a limited deterministic profiler which can be used for reporting the amounts of calls to some functions during" 12:20:43 hm, I wonder what distracted whoever wrote that half of a sentence 12:20:53 aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 12:21:46 Xof: perhaps charging velociraptors? 12:22:44 ol3```` [n=user@82.113.106.145] has joined #lisp 12:25:57 redb1ue [i=star@ppp064.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 12:28:24 -!- ol3``` [n=user@82.113.121.86] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:32:24 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:37:24 sykopomp: I don't think sb-prof was written that long ago 12:38:22 mvilleneuve: time flies. 12:41:33 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@193.136.206.174] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 12:41:38 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:41:49 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:53 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:47:52 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-134.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:47:56 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:49:38 fusss [n=chatzill@60.241.1.206] has joined #lisp 12:51:54 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:53:51 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:54:10 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 12:55:30 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:24 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:02:56 tcr: morning. 13:05:19 tcr: it's just occurred to me: if your bignum allocation is the only allocation going on, or even if not, you could turn on the allocation profiler mode of sb-sprof 13:06:47 that might tell you something new 13:07:17 morphling [n=stefan@89.14.141.70] has joined #lisp 13:08:29 Xof: it's a tiny fraction of allocations. 13:08:45 ok 13:09:30 -!- demmel1 [n=Adium@c004.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:12:30 tcr: I don't really have too many cycles available though. I can count my days of reprieve from administrative tasks ;) 13:13:45 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 13:14:02 Eleanore [n=a@c-3a29e555.035-34-73746f10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:15:40 coyo [n=alex@ppp-70-129-141-101.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:24 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 13:20:44 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:26:12 -!- xan_ is now known as xan 13:31:56 phoenixi [n=tuomosa@a85-156-197-4.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 13:34:03 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.70.171] has joined #lisp 13:39:20 -!- alvinator [n=alvinato@121.1.55.58] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:40:07 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:41:13 -!- rullie_ is now known as rullie 13:41:13 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.70.171] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:41:45 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.70.171] has joined #lisp 13:42:11 pkhuong: I didn't get your comment about place vs setf function 13:42:38 does (iterator) return the current value of the iterator? 13:42:47 yes and also advance the iterator 13:43:26 In the scope of a do-sequence? 13:44:08 assuming I have (... :place iterator), like your examples. 13:44:51 ah no :place does not give access to the iterator 13:45:13 so I can (setf (place) ...). Can i also just call (place)? 13:45:16 I did that at first, but then thought that's an implementation detail 13:45:40 No you cannot call (place) at the moment 13:46:02 That should be fixed. Otherwise, we can SETF, but not, e.g. PUSH. 13:46:09 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 13:46:09 -!- Eleanore [n=a@c-3a29e555.035-34-73746f10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 13:47:06 good call 13:47:07 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.70.171] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:47:37 And once that's fixed, the other question is what exactly should be updated. I think that once (setf place) has been called, (place) should return the new value, but that it's undefined what happens to the original value binding from do-sequence. 13:49:01 Either undefined, or the do-sequence binding is also updated (which might help avoid some bugs and space leaks). I don't know which is more useful. 13:49:15 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:19 I have to update the binding as an implementation-detail 13:49:32 as I cannot access the iterator's closed over state 13:50:21 How about concurrent accesses; does (place) reflect those? 13:50:38 No 13:50:43 Anyway, so you update your own binding and only save its value in the sequence as you advance the iterator? 13:50:58 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:51:04 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 13:51:30 No the value is modified by the call to (setf (place) ...), make-sequence-iterator returns a getter and a setter 13:52:03 why couldn't (place) use the getter? 13:52:29 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:52:31 ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-151-145.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:43 well because it's actually a getter-and-advance-state 13:53:11 Right. Split get, set, endp and advance. 13:54:03 ah well I feel reluctant to that as that's quite a major change, and I want to get this done. For what purpose? 13:54:07 Or actually get, set, end and get-and-advance, since that's the common case. 13:54:21 You just need one more function to get without advancing 13:54:40 The purpose would be to get :place right. 13:55:02 I don't see why I shouldn't be able to get that right as it is now 13:55:26 Concurrent accesses *to the underlying sequence*. 13:56:43 Levenson1 [n=Levenson@92.46.80.202] has joined #lisp 13:56:47 you could provide iterator-copy instead 13:57:44 triyo [i=c636cac3@gateway/web/freenode/x-uparrvcitykssaec] has joined #lisp 13:57:49 -!- Levenson1 [n=Levenson@92.46.80.202] has quit [Client Quit] 14:00:24 okflo` [n=user@91-115-87-231.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 14:00:49 pkhuong: What does "getting :place right" and concurrency mean to you? 14:01:50 It's not my intention to come up with a good protocol, or implementation, for iterators. I see my work to be work on a layer above that 14:02:14 I'm only talking about do-sequence[s*] here. 14:02:40 Well, you're thinking of a truly parallel version of dosequences? 14:02:40 p0a [n=user@athedsl-382587.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:02:45 no 14:02:59 I don't see where concurrency plays a role for :place 14:03:00 I'm just thinking of 2 do-sequence on the same sequence running concurrently. 14:03:02 Hello I often find the need to (progn (require ...) (require ...) (load "foo.fasl")) before using some functions in foo 14:03:14 foo is something I use daily for certain things 14:03:27 use asdf instead? 14:03:30 can I avoid this by having only (load "foo.fasl")? 14:03:51 well, you could put require's inside foo 14:03:55 Hm 14:03:59 I think I tried that but it didn't work 14:04:01 *p0a* tries again 14:04:05 you tried wrong 14:04:08 clhs eval-when 14:04:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_eval_w.htm 14:04:18 If (setf place) modifies the sequence directly, we want (place) to access the sequence directly. Otherwise, we'll have a very weird system where changes are sometimes visible, but not always (because (place) actually accesses a cached value that never gets invalidated). 14:04:41 (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (require :foo)) 14:05:14 hm 14:05:18 minion: tell p0a about xach-asdf 14:05:19 I don't understand that at all 14:05:19 p0a: please look at xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 14:05:32 sounds like an interesting title 14:05:59 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.70.171] has joined #lisp 14:06:39 stassats: cool, thanks. 14:06:42 I like that more than eval-when 14:07:39 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:07:50 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:08:17 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:08:21 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 14:08:35 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-222-139.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:08:38 pkhuong: :from-end t on lists is implementing by popping the reverse of the list; two concurrent runs on that will have a similiar problem 14:08:53 benny` [n=benny@i577A0D44.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:09:14 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:26 sigh 14:09:29 what load of crap 14:09:43 p0a: asdf is fine. 14:09:52 *p0a* adds an emacs binding that inserts (progn (require ...) (load ...)) 14:09:54 could be better, but it's easy as hell for small projects. 14:10:02 doing that is retarded. 14:10:05 but you seem pretty set on it. 14:10:09 I don't think so, it's a time saver. 14:10:29 tcr: how does (setf place) work there? 14:10:31 p0a: asdf is to CL as make is to C (sorta) 14:10:48 asdf systems take a minute to write (less for me), and they make it incredibly easy to do loading of systems. 14:10:49 Adlai: that's not much of a compliment for asdf ;-) 14:11:03 sykopomp: a minute to write, an hour to figure out 14:11:08 and it takes an hour because it's not properly written 14:11:09 p0a: yes, but you're better off using it than not. 14:11:10 and asdf is scalable 14:11:20 Adlai: good point 14:11:25 an hour well spent. If you're going to write lisp applications, you're going to have to learn asdf. 14:11:27 p0a: well, you figure out once 14:11:49 pkhuong: heh it doesn't at the moment 14:11:54 the same with learning lisp itself 14:12:05 you're both right, but it's just not the right hour to do so ;-) 14:12:06 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:12:28 p0a: (require ...) is not only non-portable across implementations, but it'll prevent you from properly distributing your library or program, or putting it together with other systems. 14:12:37 not to mention fill your code with useless garbage 14:12:47 tcr: might have to reverse the list, but store the conses instead of the cars. 14:12:52 sykopomp: that's like saying, the -Wall switch is not portable across implementations 14:13:01 pkhuong: Right 14:13:04 require isn't portable at all. 14:13:15 sykopomp: that's my point - portability doesn't matter 14:13:18 and i don't know what the heck -Wall is. 14:13:30 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:13:31 sykopomp: gcc-specific C compilation thingy 14:13:39 Adlai: I figured as much. 14:13:48 p0a: learning to use the tools you work with is always a time well invested. if you don't agree, then come back when somebody has hit you with a cluebat. 14:13:57 -!- mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6D5D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:14:01 *Adlai* hits p0a with a cluebat 14:14:04 *sykopomp* takes out a cluebat 14:14:10 *Adlai* beat sykopomp to it. 14:14:18 *sykopomp* beats adlai with his cluebat. 14:14:26 I don't think so 14:14:33 isn't it just (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op 'mypkg)? 14:14:39 p0a: let me guess, you use vi to edit lisp programs, right? 14:14:42 emacs 14:14:44 hey! 14:14:48 *tic* heard that. 14:14:48 rullie: ,load-system my-sys 14:15:06 p0a: hmm, how come? don't you have to invest time to learn emacs? 14:15:12 jdz: that's time well spent. 14:15:24 I've setup slime to run with my emacs and Clozure CL. I get a "?" as a REPL prompt. How come it doesn't show CL-USER> as prompt? 14:15:24 p0a: same for asdf. 14:15:24 I don't agree 14:15:35 except the retarded fucking slime asdf-loading thing pops up every damn buffer that threw a warning whenever you loaded a system. 14:15:37 you're not in a position not to agree, since you haven't learnt it yet 14:15:37 triyo: you need to do (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) 14:15:40 p0a: ok, do you have anything else we might help you with? 14:15:42 tcr: can I just keep complaining about that? 14:15:51 -!- okflo [n=user@91-115-80-144.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Success] 14:15:52 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:15:52 p0a: Can you state that without knowing asdf? 14:15:53 tcr: and how unnecessary and obnoxious it is? 14:16:02 triyo: SLIME doesn't enable the slime-repl bydefault, but the slime-fancy setting does. 14:16:17 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:16:22 p0a: an asdf system takes less time to write than your ungodly mess of REQUIREs 14:16:24 sykopomp: it's actually not that bad... 14:16:32 sykopomp: not for me 14:16:38 Adlai: depends on what you're compiling 14:16:42 Adlai: it's horrible. Try compiling a large system with lots of dependencies. 14:16:52 I've actually had 80 new buffers pop up once. 14:16:54 EIGHTY 14:17:00 of code I never want to see, nor touch. 14:17:10 p0a: you don't even know asdf. How can you say that? 14:17:11 that's eight tens of buffers! 14:17:11 sykopomp: tried to load drakma? 14:17:16 Obviously, stop using poorly written libraries :) 14:17:28 sykopomp: because I know what it is about 14:17:36 p0a: you clearly don't. 14:17:41 p0a: you realize that a simple ASDF definition looks like this: 14:17:41 why's p0a so against asdf? 14:17:42 you clearly don't what i do 14:17:45 Adlai: thats certainly looking a lot fancier, :) thx 14:17:47 tcr: that means I would have to stop using every single lisp library out there. 14:17:59 pkhuong: What's the point in extracting endp out? 14:18:15 tcr: the Right Thing is to have a switch in slime that lets you turn off that incredibly obnoxious behavior. 14:18:23 (asdf:defsystem :project :components ((:file "project"))) 14:18:25 sykopomp: Not every! Mine tend to compile without noise. 14:18:36 sykopomp: stop using slime-asdf 14:18:36 tic: btw, I've switched from limp to slime a few months ago 14:18:43 tic: and you should too :p 14:18:48 (i did) 14:18:50 stassats`: that would be annoying. 14:18:50 Adlai: I tried that, it didn't work out, I won't bother further 14:18:56 though i had it fixed 14:19:08 tcr: I figured it probably was already. You just ask get-and-avance whether you're done? 14:19:09 rullie, I should fix Limp! That is indeed correct. 14:19:19 beacuse what I have to deal with here is things that don't work together nicely - I have to deal with the hacks taht someone invented to go around a problem that should've been solved in a different manner 14:19:23 I don't have time for that 14:19:31 pkhuong: get-and-advance does that internally 14:19:42 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 14:19:47 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 14:19:51 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:19:51 the same reason why I use an OS where I haven't really bothered learning any part of it (unlike the community in the according channel tells me), etc 14:19:56 p0a: you're calling ASDF a hack? 14:19:57 tcr: any system that sticks a (declaim (optimize (speed 3))) at the top of the file will almost invariably pop up a buffer. That's not even poorly written. SBCL is incredibly difficult to shut up at that speed setting. 14:20:03 sykopomp: I have nothing against a patch which makes ,load not do that, and introduce another repl command which does what ,load currently does 14:20:08 (not like you -want- to shut up all the warnings, either) 14:20:16 sykopomp: Now it's your turn 14:20:26 i stopped using slime-asdf because searching .asds for completion was terribly slow 14:20:38 Adlai: no, that isn't what I meant. ASDF *uses* hacks 14:20:45 tcr: give me a clue as to what to look at. I remember browsing through the slime code to figure out what was causing it, but feeling a bit overwhelmed and impatient :P 14:20:48 That's why it should be replaced. It's a quickie. (time is relative) 14:20:55 sykopomp: contrib/slime-repl.el 14:21:05 tcr: thanks :) 14:21:12 p0a: what hacks exactly are you talking about? 14:21:20 jdz: symlinks, I'm guessing. 14:21:22 p0a: and how do they interfere whith what you want to achieve? 14:21:28 jdz: to be precise I'd have to spend time with it - no thanks 14:21:56 jdz: they interfere in this exact manner: I don't want to bother reading anything of ASDF to have two packages automatically loaded/included in my project 14:21:58 p0a: ok, if you got your problem solved then let's stop beating this dead horse. 14:21:59 I'd rather write an emacs binding 14:22:02 jdz: ok 14:22:06 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:22:24 p0a: (asdf:defsystem my-crappy-system :depends-on (:system1 :system2 :system3) :serial t :components ((:file "file1") (:file "file2"))) defsystem is *trivial* 14:22:32 put that single form in a .asd file, and you're set. 14:22:33 sykopomp: tried that, didn't wor 14:22:38 p0a: using ASDF is so fucking simple. If you don't want to learn about ASDF, at least learn about XCVB so that we don't have to read your mess of REQUIRE and LOAD. 14:22:52 minion: tell p0a about mk-defsystem 14:22:53 p0a: direct your attention towards mk-defsystem: MK-defsystem is a system definition utility; it fills a similar role for CL Development as make(1) does for C. http://www.cliki.net/mk-defsystem 14:22:55 p0a: you must be doing it rong. 14:23:00 sykopomp: rit 14:23:04 p0a: or, you could party like it's 1989. 14:23:14 but that just proves p0a's point, right? If he's doing it wrong it must be someone else's fault 14:23:20 :-) 14:23:22 pkhuong: Thanks for your thoughts. Much appreciated. It's really difficult to get stuff right just on his own. 14:23:38 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A17A2.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:23:40 because there's no possibility that he is in fact a cretin 14:23:48 Xof: I know that's sarcasm but htat's exactly my point! 14:23:52 konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has joined #lisp 14:24:07 *Adlai* stops trying to fix p0a's brain and goes code. 14:24:37 p0a: well, your point is both uninteresting and invalid 14:24:46 I disagree 14:24:49 at least about invalidness 14:25:07 but you're an OP, we all know how this will end: I'll either get banned or muted. So let's stop here 14:25:30 *Adlai* would mention the other possible ending, but that would violate his previous statement. 14:25:53 What is the point? 14:26:19 oh, somebody has some nice IRC experience 14:26:37 heh, yeah 14:26:59 to my experience nobody has been kicked from this channel with no reason 14:27:18 actually, a kick is a nice cluebat 14:27:39 jdz: It didn't work before, it won't work now. You won't do a good teacher thinking like that 14:27:41 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:28:27 p0a: thanks for your advice, but, you know, you have not made an impression anybody should pay any attention to it. 14:28:32 p0a: if you were less stubborn about saying what it is you tried as opposed to copping out with "lol i tried no work", we could actually get somewhere. 14:28:56 ok 14:29:25 so saying "I tried -this- asdf form, for this file structure, and it didn't work" will actually yield good results. 14:29:40 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:29:58 p0a pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88668 14:30:13 That was inside my foo.flv. I tried C-c C-k (compile-file), and it didn't work 14:30:22 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 14:30:24 and that's enough for me to stop there and say "An emacs binding would do the trick" 14:30:36 Here's one thing I quickly learned about teaching: you can't make people want to learn. 14:30:37 p0a: put that form in a file called foo.asd 14:30:50 then, at the repl, do (require :foo) 14:30:51 that's it. 14:31:19 I have to do (progn (require :foo) (load "foo.lisp")) 14:31:31 So it only saves me... a single REQUIRE for one of the two dependencies 14:31:34 not much of a solution 14:31:41 plus an extra file 14:31:48 sigh.. 14:31:53 *sykopomp* gives up. 14:31:57 one file is not much of a problem, either 14:32:10 lnostdal: nor is a REQUIRE form 14:32:29 *shrug* 14:32:32 -!- ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:32:33 *beach* thinks p0a has already lost more time in this discussion than it would have taken to learn ASDF. 14:32:44 beach: time, but not effort 14:33:23 p0a: Oh, you are one of those who are afraid of neural fatigue. I didn't think we had many of those in the Lisp community. 14:33:39 time, effort, money... they are about the same 14:33:48 attila_lendvai: BS 14:33:55 playboxgames.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:33:58 anyway, I shouldn't have gotten involved in this discussion. Ignore what I said. 14:34:00 beach: not really - I don't want to spend time learning something if I don't have to and I'm very selective about the things I want to learn 14:34:01 sorry about that. 14:34:21 beach: heh, similar thoughts here... :) 14:35:00 this is one of the times i'm grateful that common lisp is not a "mainstream" language. 14:35:06 beach: Have you been following patrick stein's fft library? 14:35:22 tcr: Superficially. I haven't tried it. 14:35:25 Is it good? 14:35:47 -!- ol3```` [n=user@82.113.106.145] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:35:51 No idea, I wanted to know why he didn't improve on bordeux-fft? 14:35:57 ol3```` [n=user@82.113.106.145] has joined #lisp 14:36:15 well, he didn't know about bordeux-fft in the first place 14:36:23 tcr: Oh, there could be a number of reasons. It's not that hard to write a lousy FFT and it is pretty hard to write a good one. 14:36:34 mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6D5D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:38 tcr: given that bordeaux-fft exists, focusing on a solid transpose library would probably have been a better strategy. It seems his original googling for "CL fourier transform" didn't find anything interesting. 14:37:31 Yeah, using (sqrt n) radix would be a win, but would require such a library. 14:38:40 stassats`: Do you have to stop slime-sprof before reporting? 14:38:50 stassats`: And `g' does not seem to do anything 14:39:02 p0a: I unfortunately also have to be selective about the things that I learn, but as opposed to you, there is nothing I would refuse to learn if I had time to do so. 14:39:04 beach: right, we can implement 1d fft with 2d ffts. I was referring to stein's need for 2d ffts. 14:39:06 ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 14:39:10 tcr: you don't have to 14:39:27 tcr: i didn't look into what g was supposed to do 14:39:28 pkhuong: Oh, you have read much more about it than I have. 14:39:58 milanj [n=milan@93.86.21.167] has joined #lisp 14:40:41 p0a: And since I am convinced that learning a new better tool will free up more time for me to learn even more stuff later, that's usually what I try to do. 14:41:16 beach: 1) you don't distinguish between knowledge, ie knowledge is valueless for you since you'd learn anything if you had the time 14:41:20 -!- triyo [i=c636cac3@gateway/web/freenode/x-uparrvcitykssaec] has left #lisp 14:41:30 triyo [i=c636cac3@gateway/web/freenode/x-uparrvcitykssaec] has joined #lisp 14:41:37 2) I agree with you on the latter; it's just that I do different things than you which result in different management of my time 14:41:38 p0a: whatever. 14:42:01 asdf is the only game in town, but you can go crazy as much as you want 14:42:12 go for compile-file+load if you wish .. no one is stopping you 14:42:33 wasn't Fare' trying to write an asdf replacement? 14:42:36 *tic* wouldn't call beach someone for whom knowledge is useless.... 14:42:38 that's what I decided to do half an hour ago - people keep talking to me and I respond because IRC is like that... 14:42:40 ZabaQ, xcvb, yes. 14:42:47 tic: I said valueless not useless... 14:43:05 p0a, same thing if you consider the knowledge with the least value/use. 14:43:31 no it's not the same thing. He sees use in knowledge, but he does not see value because he'd learn anything at all (at least according to his words) 14:44:08 yes, and now you know better than him what he actually meant by those words. Interpreting text literally, especially on IRC, is not very wise. 14:44:25 p0a: your reading comprehension also lacks... 14:45:16 I don't think so. Maybe I'm not able to express my ideas nicely, but my reading comprehension is fine. as for you jdz, I saw too many assumptions from your side that are simply not correct 14:45:43 my turn to make an assumption, you're eager to put me in one of your stereotypes so you can "move on" with my case. First I'm a vim user, then somtehing else, now my reading comprehension lacks 14:45:45 ZabaQ, not sure it is ready for general use yet 14:46:02 oh well, could you guys please stop? 14:46:20 yeah 14:46:23 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-382587.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 14:46:45 borism_ [n=boris@195.50.215.32] has joined #lisp 14:50:32 hm .. slot-boundp-using-class .. it seems the first argument is totally ignored? .. i can give it garbage, even .. 14:50:34 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-222-139.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:51 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:51:21 ..does it do a class-of against the object argument behind the scenes or something? 14:51:23 someone here using iterate ? 14:51:36 scottmaccal [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has joined #lisp 14:51:43 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:51:44 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 14:51:47 lnostdal: not in ccl 14:51:56 ok, stassats` .. strange 14:52:07 milanj: occasionally 14:52:11 -!- borism [n=boris@195.50.205.198] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:52:20 Adlai pasted "Any correct way to do this?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88671 14:52:22 ..really annoying .. i need to supply it with a specific class arg. to control dispatch 14:52:43 (perhaps that's a bad idea in general though, but still strange..) 14:52:55 My question is explained further in that paste. 14:53:05 hmm, looks like bug 14:53:18 cant specify simple-array dimension in (declare 14:53:30 i only let me do (*) 14:53:40 Adlai: no, there is no way 14:53:52 s/i/it 14:53:52 Xof: alright, that's as I suspected. Thanks anyways. 14:53:59 only satisfy 14:54:23 satisfies 14:54:34 stassats`: true. 14:54:40 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229241218.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:55:14 sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:53 Adlai: The best you can do is (deftype list-of-length (n &optional type) (if (zerop n) `null `(cons ,type (list-of-length ,(1- n))))) 14:56:36 tcr: do you mean `(cons ,type (list-of-length ,(1- n) ,type)) ? 14:56:49 yeah sure 14:57:16 -!- okflo` [n=user@91-115-87-231.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has left #lisp 14:57:36 the problem with that is that I don't know the size of the list in advance 14:57:57 I guess satisfies is the only solution 14:58:07 Depends on what you want to achieve. 14:58:28 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 14:58:34 If you primarely want that information to be checked at run-time, sure use satisfies 14:59:00 if you, however, want this for the compiler to be smarter, better define an inlined getter function which the appropriate ftype declaim 14:59:09 s/which/with/ 15:00:05 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 15:00:23 right now, this is just for clarification -- ie, declaring such a type so that it's evident what the data structure is when a person reads the code. I'm gonna leave out a declaration for this list, but I'll keep your suggestion in mind if I try to optimize this later.. 15:00:37 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:00:41 your suggestion = a getter function with ftype declarations. 15:01:25 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:26 I'd probably use check-type + satisfies directly in that case 15:03:10 i'd use assert then 15:05:11 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has joined #lisp 15:05:14 pkhuong: I now added :place as an argument to with-sequence-iterator, and removed the (setf (iterator) ...) bit. DOSEQUENCE expand to with-seq-it + : 15:05:26 dosequence + :place expand to with-seq-it + :place 15:05:40 and (place) turns into a getter 15:08:33 hmm, it's actually not that simple to do this properly with satisfies 15:09:10 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 15:09:47 because satisfies accepts a one-argument predicate that has to be globally fbound 15:10:19 *Adlai* just puts ";; Proper list of fixnums" in his code instead of a type, for now. 15:11:22 Adlai: (assert (every #'fixnump list)) 15:11:25 does this work for you guys? .. http://paste.lisp.org/display/88674 .. i'm using 1.0.31.32 here 15:12:00 tcr: I was looking for something to put in (defstruct foo (bar nil :type '(list-of baz))) 15:12:17 but yes, I can put assertions in functions that deal with the bar slot 15:12:25 lnostdal: works on sbcl, yes 15:12:50 doesn't on ccl 15:12:54 lnostdal: users aren't meant to call svuc; in that interpretation, it's cheaper not to dispatch on the first argument 15:13:10 to get non-standard behaviour you need to have a non-standard slotd argument anyway 15:13:33 (or class) 15:13:39 Adlai: I use (deftype list-of (type) `(or null (cons ,type *))) for that 15:14:11 xach: Ok, I give up. what are extension characters and how can they be part of a potential number? 15:14:26 tcr: oh, thanks, that's good enough. 15:16:16 wgl: the spec spells it out 15:16:38 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.70.171] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:17:13 tcr: actually, that should be `(or null (cons ,type list)) 15:17:16 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.70.171] has joined #lisp 15:18:15 Adlai: Heh, right, I'm sorry I'm not giving my full attention to the channel 15:19:42 rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:22:22 Xof, hmmm, ok .. the "user" here is actually another custom or user-defined s*uc method that wants to not always dispatch to the other s*uc methods "around" it .. (i'm trying to wrap the idea of "unboundness" in some thread safe indirection type thing/object..) 15:23:06 well, that sounds vaguely dubious, but: same thing as with tcr earlier: I have a deadline 15:23:18 ..(but sometimes i need to "dive down" and check if the slot is _really_ unbound; i.e., the slot doesn't store an object used to represent "uboundedness"..) 15:23:23 heh :) 15:24:09 i suppose i can call sb-pcl internals directly :P 15:24:30 -!- [Jackal_] [n=Jackal@118.95.53.144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:25:03 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.70.171] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:25:44 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.70.171] has joined #lisp 15:25:48 (eq (sb-pcl::clos-slots-ref (sb-pcl::std-instance-slots instance) (slot-definition-location slotd)) sb-pcl::+slot-unbound+) ;; or something like that .. *wild guess* -- gonna try 15:28:08 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.70.171] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:28:28 pkhuong: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/sequence-iterators.html -- updates to dosequence, and with-sequence-iterator 15:28:36 [Jackal_] [n=Jackal@118.95.53.144] has joined #lisp 15:28:43 lol .. yup, that works .. but i feel dirty 15:28:43 ahwell 15:30:08 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:30:36 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:31:48 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:01 going via standard-instance-access is a bit less dirty .. ok, this'll work; i'll keep quiet now 15:34:40 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:35:59 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-20-145.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:36:53 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:37:43 Adlai annotated #88671 "Did I put too much effort in this? :)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88671#1 15:37:55 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:38:17 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:33 Adlai: stands a good chance of not working with a file compiler 15:38:45 Xof: really? why? 15:38:52 gensyms can't be externalised and read back in to be the EQ object 15:38:54 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:39:01 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-udlkquihjtsalgml] has joined #lisp 15:39:14 hmmm 15:39:27 ah, a fasl would reference the gensyms, right. bleh. 15:39:39 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-222-139.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:39:57 ok, enough playing with Lisp. 15:47:05 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-151-145.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:47:08 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-wyhzioifekoioeyg] has joined #lisp 15:47:12 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.70.171] has joined #lisp 15:47:59 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:48:26 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-109-57.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 15:49:25 -!- qed [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-lzrgtvgptoyxhtvi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:50:04 qed [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-babofhxjszqhmpqm] has joined #lisp 15:50:12 ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.157.122] has joined #lisp 15:53:17 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:54:02 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-134-126.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 15:58:01 teilzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@p579154C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:11 danlei [n=user@pD9E2ED1C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:23 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-65-111.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:58:55 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p579152AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:02:20 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 16:02:23 drgnvale [n=acristin@209.16.73.144] has joined #lisp 16:03:21 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:09:32 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 16:09:46 can I do a quick straw poll? If you use SBCL, what's the specifically sbcl feature that you get the most mileage from? (I'm sort of after actual features that you use in your code rather than features that help you develop your code, here) 16:09:49 reprore [n=reprore@116.82.73.92] has joined #lisp 16:10:05 (I'm also interested in answers for other implementations) 16:10:42 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.70.171] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:10:42 optimization notes 16:10:50 oh, sorry. 16:11:02 Xof: I don't have any specific feature, but can we also give our personal pet peeves? ;-) (not that I code enough to get real problems from them...) 16:11:12 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.70.171] has joined #lisp 16:11:22 I just try to avoid anything that's compiler-specific. I use or write portability layers whenever possible. 16:11:43 Xof: everything i can think of is in the "develop" category. good notes, good profiler, good slime integration. 16:11:54 Threads? 16:12:04 Although, CCL's objc-bridge has always drawn me to that compiler (long before I was employed by them) 16:12:08 sellout: I am at the moment writing a paper that argues that portability layers are the root of all evil 16:12:26 lol 16:12:59 Xof: Isn't CL a portability layer? ;) 16:13:05 Xof: What is the essence of your argument? 16:13:06 yeah, and look at pathnames 16:13:15 *p_l* has one pet peeve with SBCL, namely the way it allocates memory just loves to make problems for him 16:13:29 I don't care about features (uhm, aside from threads, unicode, cffi support, OS portability). Implementations could stop innovating in that area as far as I'm concerned and concentrate on being compatible to each other while competing in the area of speed. 16:13:42 Oh, yes, Unicode! 16:13:46 Xof: Although I haven't used either of these extensively, I think that sb-ext:cas and sb-ext:rotate-byte are very useful. 16:14:03 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:14:15 So the single reason to use SBCL for me compared to CCL is that it's faster. The reason for either of them compared to, say, Allegro that they are open source. (Neither is a "feature" in that sense.) 16:14:31 roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 16:14:57 both are also examples of something which (to be useful) has to be defined in an implementation-specific way 16:15:13 Note that this is not an argument for portability layers, but rather an argument for moving the features of of the implementation in the place. See iolib rather than usocket. Iolib rather than serve-event. Iolib rather than sb-posix. (etc.) 16:16:18 lichtblau: what do you mean? Your second sentance wasn't very clear :\ 16:16:40 xof: sb-ext:get-time-of-day, nice posix access, serious speed of code generation (this is mandatory in my application), sb-bsd-sockets. 16:16:57 Uhm, sorry. "an argument for moving the features out of the implementation in the first place". 16:17:31 -!- Bucciarati [n=buccia@212.45.155.126] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:17:34 lichtblau: Yeah, I totally agree with that. 16:18:39 xof: speed of generated code is the primary for me 16:20:32 beach: the tendency to get to either a lowest-common-denominator and be generally useless, or for code written to the portability layer to be not in fact portable because of gross or subtle differences 16:21:09 (there are of course exceptions to these two fates of portability layers) 16:21:48 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-134-126.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 16:22:32 sellout: so, do you write any code to the CCL objective-c bridge? Or do you have a portability layer? :-) 16:22:47 ravster [n=user@99.225.101.120] has joined #lisp 16:22:54 Hello all 16:23:18 Xof: For a long time I tried to write a portable version of it, and tried to use that other one that someone made. I eventually gave up. 16:23:54 lichtblau: what you say sounds like what someone who has come to terms with CL as a language would say -- I don't need new language constructs, because I have enough; I just want existing language constructs to be better 16:24:05 (thanks for the responses) 16:24:36 Xof: You should maybe also note that while I like sb-ext:CAS, I'm trying to port it to another implementation, too. 16:25:00 I'm having trouble setting up this bit of code in "the lisp way". I have a dolist thing going over another list of symbols, but when I evaluate the list iterator, it evaluates only to the symbols in the given list (As it should). Is there some way to make it point instead to the values of the symbols? Or am I thinking too much in a "C" way? 16:25:17 I ask this question because as I say I am busily attempting to write a coherent paper on the subject, but also because yesterday I was intensely pleased with myself for having implemented generic sequences two years ago, and a particular set of ffi bindings to use generic sequences one year ago 16:25:28 apparently no-one else is pleased with me in quite the same way :-) 16:25:34 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 16:25:40 Greetings. 16:25:46 ravster: you can get the global value of a symbol with the symbol-value function. but normally you would go over a list of values directly. 16:26:19 Xof: I can confirm that it's relieving to use the Right Thing rather than the Portable Thing. 16:26:56 minion: logs 16:26:57 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 16:27:25 ravster pasted "dolist/pointer question" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88677 16:27:53 serichse1 [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06f961.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:53 ravster: don't use a quoted list. construct a list of values with (list strong-bull ...) 16:27:57 ravster: how did you end up with a list of such symbols in the first place? 16:28:18 ravster: or use values-list 16:28:27 or, oops. i get that wrong. 16:28:42 Xach: so "'(strong-bul..." and "(list strong-bull...." are not the same thing? 16:28:46 seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:58 ravster: Nope. 16:29:03 ravster: they do not evaluate to the same thing, no. 16:29:18 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 16:29:31 beach: I just constructed it after binding the symbols to what gets returned from the demarcate function 16:29:35 I admit that going for portable libraries the way I am advocating (not "portability libraries"!) still implies a desire to change the language: 16:29:49 (let ((foo (multiple-value-list (demarcate-sqn-values ...)))) ...) 16:29:51 Xach: Oh 16:30:05 e.g. by using file paths more and more, I'm in effect discarding all parts of CL related to Common Lisp pathnames from my tool set. 16:30:19 Xach: oh, so I don't use multiple-value-bind, and save myself a step? 16:30:25 Intentionally ignoring large parts of the spec in favour of a replacement can be seen as a change to the language, even if the replacement is sitting in a different package. 16:31:05 that's true, though it doesn't feel like quite what I'm talking about 16:31:06 lichtblau: by "file paths" you mean strings? 16:31:11 *ravster* goes to try it out 16:31:19 ravster: you could. it can be nice to have names for that thing. there is a balance to be struck. 16:31:30 piso: no, the CLOS things fe[nl]ix invented as a replacement for CL:PATHNAMEs 16:31:42 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.192.201] has joined #lisp 16:31:46 Xach: technically, I don't need the names strong-bull etc. 16:31:46 lichtblau: you're actually using them ? 16:31:56 (I think I'm talking about language semantics, in some sense, rather than a bunch of different functions. I admit that the distinction is not clear) 16:32:30 -!- ol3```` [n=user@82.113.106.145] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:32:41 ol3```` [n=user@82.113.106.145] has joined #lisp 16:32:43 ravster: While you are at it, it is more common to use `-' than `_' in CL identifiers. 16:32:44 fe[nl]ix: well, to the extent that I'm listing files using iolib. I'm still going through CL:OPEN afterwards, but I suppose even that could change at some point. 16:32:56 cool 16:33:34 Xach: Thank You Mario image was on the press yesterday 16:33:52 beach: yeah, I've been meaning to change the length_array thing for a while :D 16:34:03 Xach: someone used it to make a 404 page which was on a Smashing Magazine list 16:34:37 fusss: http://imgur.com/nosuchpage is one i heard about 16:34:55 i haven't seen much of a recent uptick in usage, though... 16:34:59 fusss: which press? 16:35:10 Xach: http://www.dawdle.com/error_page.php 16:35:16 fe[nl]ix: not that iolib:list-directory is particularly fast, BTW. 16:35:17 let me find the website 16:35:30 Good enough for Dired, I don't mind waiting for such a buffer to be rendered. (And in that case, there's also a stat call for every result.) 16:35:44 Xach: http://webdesignledger.com/inspiration/404-error-pages-for-your-viewing-pleasure 16:35:47 that's not one of mine! 16:35:56 But for file name completion it's quite noticable that there's a lag between hitting TAB and having the result appear. 16:35:57 my score is 122700 and the world is 3-4 16:36:35 was that a magic number? 16:36:48 oh :-D 16:37:02 tcr: just the score on the screenshot i took 16:37:07 lichtblau: I'm working on that. I've profiled it and was appalled at the results :D 16:37:28 imgur.com is a real lisp mario though 16:37:59 wait, lichtblau, you have an editor? 16:38:45 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06f961.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:39:18 And it really pwnz 16:40:18 Xof: not sure what you mean. I'm working on portable Hemlock a little, but you probably heard me talk about that here on the channel already. 16:40:32 oh, I didn't know that you were still working on it 16:40:39 I'm not getting any cvs commit messages... 16:41:21 *Xach* was pleased to get a plug from granolamom4god.com, also 16:42:17 -!- ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:42:28 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:31 Xof: no, I forked it into git. The TTY backend is quite functional now; the Qt backend still needs some work. Perhaps it would be time to take over the common-lisp.net project though and make things a bit more public. 16:44:34 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 16:45:08 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 16:45:14 neat 16:46:01 lichtblau: Public git? 16:46:09 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 16:46:25 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:46:41 Nathell [n=nathell@afea161.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:47:01 hi 16:47:05 any sbcl devs here? 16:47:27 Nathell: there are few here who aren't 16:47:49 temporally aren't 16:47:52 tmh: public git (http://gitorious.org/qthemlock/), but with a few changes in iolib and osicat required that I haven't sent upstream yet, so probably not compilable for the general public at the moment 16:48:46 Xach: I meant someone who would help me with a bug in sbcl 16:48:55 Nathell: yeah, the place is crawling with them. 16:49:02 Ask away! 16:49:41 lichtblau: for what do you need osicat ? 16:49:44 lichtblau: I want to see the TTY backend. 16:50:55 fe[nl]ix: I needed "struct termios" and "struct winsize" and didn't know where else to put them. Perhaps iolib would be a better place? 16:52:06 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:52:22 lichtblau: there's a guy who sent a working iolib.termios system to iolib-devel a few weeks ago 16:52:31 Xach, I sent a bugreport to sbcl-bugs 16:52:37 I wonder whether it's been picked up 16:52:42 lichtblau: see if you like it 16:52:43 fe[nl]ix: okay, I'll check it out. 16:52:46 Nathell: ah. i guess i am not hard-core enough, i only read sbcl-devel. 16:52:48 or should I send mail to sbcl-devel also... 16:52:56 I do not read sbcl-bugs 16:53:23 http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=1255508886.3766.6.camel%40chamsin&forum_name=sbcl-bugs 16:53:23 (I thought it was just something that launchpad sent messages to? I don't read launchpad either, I can't work out how to get the data in some one-glanceable form) 16:53:49 basically it boils down to large file support not working for me 16:53:55 on x86-64 16:55:23 Xof: According to http://www.sbcl.org/ sbcl-bugs is a place to report bugs. 16:55:34 This should perhaps be corrected to say sbcl-devel, if your description is how most people treat it? 16:55:34 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:07 kpreid: I don't know. I think "most people" at the moment seems to be nikodemus, and I think he's probably more on top of what's current than I am 16:57:19 tmh: http://www.lichteblau.com/tmp/exp-syntax.png <-- screenshot 16:57:23 (I guess you meant `see for yourself', but perhaps a screenshot will bridge the gap until those patches have arrived upstream.) 16:57:52 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:58:25 oh, I was about to complain that you weren't using computer modern 16:58:35 but it's probably beyond the call of duty to make you use cm in your terminal windows 16:58:38 Xof: I mostly use launchpad via emails for the same reason. 16:58:43 (notice how the shell buffer is cleverly syntax highlighted as a Lisp comment) 16:58:53 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:59:10 lichtblau: Sure, I'd like to start playing with it, but I don't want to install Qt and I'm interested in seeing how easy it is to plugin another backend. 16:59:39 skeptomai|awa- [n=nnnnncb@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:43 dmiles [n=dmiles@76.104.220.73] has joined #lisp 17:00:19 lichtblau: I have a copy of the hemlock documentation that I'm translating to LaTeX so that it can be kept up to date and so that I can a basic idea of how it is organized. 17:00:31 Well, since very recently the TTY backend is indeed free of any Qt dependency, now that I have an I/O multiplexing loop based on iolib rather than the Qt event loop. 17:01:00 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@76.216.21.95] has joined #lisp 17:01:45 lichtblau: Are you working on just the backends or have you been enhancing to core? 17:01:48 tmh: that sounds nice. I haven't started updating documentation yet, but since I'm vaguely trying to move keybindings and Slave commands from classic Hemlock style to a SLIMEy or at least ELI-like tradition and feature set, at some point a documentation update will be needed. 17:02:46 lichtblau: I've made some progress on the documentation, but haven't touched it in a while, it's a side-side-side project. :-) 17:03:04 tmh: Well, portable hemlock's core had been ripped apart a little in the version I started from. SERVE-EVENT not available portably, but Slave functionality still depending on it, with a failed attempt by Gilbert to use streams and threads instead mixed in. 17:03:49 -!- p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-bwnttuikhedppyob] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:03:54 p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-xzoghxvnxfajuphh] has joined #lisp 17:03:59 So I've been working to add a connection API similar to emacs processes, based on Iolib or Qt, and to repair the whole wire/remote/slave interaction stuff. Not really backend stuff, but urgently needed. 17:04:21 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.21.167] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:05:39 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:05:39 To give you an idea: At the moment C-c C-c works, but C-c C-k isn't there yet. M-. usually fails to isolate the SYMBOL-AT-POINT, but sometimes you're lucky and it works, etc. 17:05:48 -!- skeptomai|away [n=nnnncb@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:06:07 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 17:06:20 -!- galdor [n=galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:06:23 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:06:34 -!- skeptomai|awa- is now known as skeptomai|away 17:06:44 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:06:51 As for how easy it is to plugin another backend, I've just kept the existing backend API (slightly CLOSified by other in portable hemlock), so not much change there compiled to "classic" hemlock. 17:06:52 Ah. I had/have delusions of developing an editor in my *free* time and was working through the hemlock documentation to study it's design. I minimally dug into the code. 17:07:31 (This in contrast to the Hemlock in CCL's cocoa IDE, which has lost the backends and lets Apple libraries render the buffer.) 17:07:36 is the hemlock code of good quality? 17:07:37 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:07:39 Xof: so should I mail sbcl-devel in order to make more people aware of the issue? 17:07:44 i.e. is it worth a read? 17:07:59 -!- triyo [i=c636cac3@gateway/web/freenode/x-uparrvcitykssaec] has quit ["Page closed"] 17:08:17 Nathell: yes 17:08:18 guaqua: I like it. Written by the CMUCL developers, and in a similar style. 17:08:24 Nathell: well, in an ideal world you would mail sbcl-devel with a fix :-) but I'm slightly worried about the fact that I at least don't actually know how to keep track of bugs 17:08:53 so yes, probably 17:08:57 galdor [n=galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:37 Xof: unfortunately I can't spare the time right now to get myself acquainted with the relevant sbcl innards :( 17:09:42 lichtblau: okay. thanks. will take a look! (i've had ideas similar to what tmh expressed) :) 17:09:51 but thanks anyway 17:09:57 demmel1 [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:10:01 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:10:01 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:10:15 guaqua: http://www.finseth.com/craft/ 17:10:41 I was also working through that book in my *free* time. 17:11:04 yeah, that's a nice one 17:11:13 one of my inspirations aswell 17:11:39 Nathell: I don't really understand why that's needed on 64b right now, but I might waste some time on this (on linux) on saturday. A quick report to launchpad will result in more eyeballs. 17:12:03 posix printf 17:12:04 http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007908799/xsh/printf.html 17:12:12 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:12:44 *Adlai* just got bitten by compile vs load vs eval -time. 17:14:31 lichtblau: looks good 17:14:41 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@76.104.183.185] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:17:17 tcr pasted "type-inference stupidness in sbcl" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88679 17:18:35 Any comment on that? 17:20:35 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:20:43 Huh, I get some note about Generic-< when wrapping the N in (NTHCDR N LIST) inside a (THE UNSIGNED-BYTE N) 17:20:45 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:22:33 fusss pasted "weird emacs freeze" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88680 17:22:58 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.70.171] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:23:07 emacs is frozen on a remote box over SSH and no about of C-c'ing can get it to unfreeze 17:23:11 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.70.171] has joined #lisp 17:23:37 there is plenty of data in memory that i haven't saved, is there anyway to get it back? 17:23:54 besides sshi'in again and copying the #backups#? 17:24:16 sellout: do you have blog at technomadic? 17:24:37 nm 17:24:37 konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has joined #lisp 17:25:54 wgl: In theory ... 17:26:40 get an interesting page when visit it--says it is attack site. 17:26:49 -!- HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:26:59 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-116.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:27:33 Yep ... old wordpress ... I think I might move to wp.com 17:28:44 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust936.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 17:29:55 fusss, next time, use screen 17:30:18 Fare: I am using screen 17:30:28 fusss, are you using gnuclient? 17:30:31 i can detach and attach just fine 17:30:47 -!- demmel1 [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:30:47 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.70.171] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:30:49 nope; screen emacs work.lisp, etc. 17:30:57 fusss, does it respond to signals? maybe take that to #emacs 17:31:15 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.70.171] has joined #lisp 17:31:16 Fare, had to kill it and rebuild nasty data structures again 17:32:32 data structures? 17:33:13 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@76.216.21.95] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:33:38 sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 17:33:47 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:20 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:34:29 *tmh* wishes sbcl was sufficiently smart, because he isn't. 17:34:46 Fare, text mining 17:37:11 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:37:25 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 17:37:34 one of the few handful commands that i use for coding seems to be triggering that error 17:37:47 as soon as I type M-( it freezes 17:39:49 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-204-215.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:08 fusss: I think that M-foo commands don't work in all terminal types 17:41:09 Heh. (eql Google Cuil) moment. Trying to find the Erik Naggum quote about life being too long to be good at C++ I typed "to" instead of "too" and got this: http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=%2B%22life+is+to+long%22+C%2B%2B&btnG=Search&sitesearch= (very slightly NSFW) 17:41:10 gigamonkey, memo from wgl: I really liked the joe armstrong black box discussion referred to here: http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2009/10/14/opening-black-boxes/ 17:41:19 fusss: try ESC ( 17:41:43 Adlai: it's the same terminal i have used for the last year 17:41:55 i am not even doing anything remotely funny 17:42:21 fusss: does "ESC (" work though? 17:42:42 Adlai: will try it when it unfreezes again 17:42:49 oh :( 17:42:57 gigamonkey: heh 17:43:24 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@32.159.211.110] has joined #lisp 17:44:05 gigamonkey, started reading your book. 17:44:21 gigamonkey: hmm, maybe C++ scrambled his brains? 17:44:23 Adlai: ESC ( works 17:44:29 colin_ [n=colin@118-169-33-5.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:30 too bad, i only have two hands 17:44:45 fusss, get yourself footpedals! 17:45:01 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-173.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 17:45:03 fusss: you can also use C-[ instead of ESC 17:45:20 (I think) 17:45:40 does M-( stop just emacs, or any other screen thing? 17:45:44 so this just ends up being a lot more chording than you'd usually need 17:46:01 it's probably easier for me to learn a foreign language than to learn a new emacs keychord for a familiar task like paren matching 17:46:11 just emacs 17:46:31 C-a d detaches screen just fine 17:47:26 fwiw, the machine has 360MB of ram and i have a 102MB data structure in memory 17:47:48 -!- knobo [n=user@88.87.57.60] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:48:07 nvoorhies__ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:40 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:49:40 -!- nvoorhies__ is now known as nvoorhies 17:49:43 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 17:49:57 does it make a difference if i have 4 screen sessions, each with an emacs and sbcl instance? 17:52:23 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-173.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:52:45 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-173.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 17:53:09 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.54.66] has joined #lisp 17:53:21 fusss: shouldn't unless you start swapping 17:53:33 fusss: I hope you know option -S to screen 17:53:53 i found the problem 17:53:54 fusss: also I use C-] as my screen escape. Makes life with emacs much easier 17:54:09 autocompletion is the culprit 17:54:09 what was the prob? 17:54:32 timor [n=martin@87.234.97.27] has joined #lisp 17:54:43 I type the first few letters of a symbol and hit TAB; that's what is freezing emacs 17:56:27 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@32.159.211.110] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:00:14 must be a divine intervention telling me to go to bed 18:00:51 ohh, divine intervention! means you won the game 18:00:56 Bucciarati [n=buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:04 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:01:45 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 18:03:53 gigamonkey: hahaha, nice result 18:04:21 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 18:04:44 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:03 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 18:05:55 -!- ravster [n=user@99.225.101.120] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:05:58 ravster [n=user@CPE000c41a8878f-CM00195efb5296.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:08:03 -!- Nathell [n=nathell@afea161.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:09:51 Pepe__ [n=ppjet@mna75-4-82-225-76-148.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:52 Xof: re keeping track of bugs. if you happen to use a feed reader, then http://feeds.launchpad.net/sbcl/latest-bugs.atom feeds the reported bugs... 18:11:21 planet sbcl, here it comes! 18:12:13 oh right, i wanted to ask who runs planet sbcl the other day... but i guess it's you Xach, right? i guess adding that feed is a good idea... 18:12:18 hmm, actually not. 18:12:35 not you, or not a good idea? 18:12:54 I run it, and I don't really like the contents. 18:13:15 I would prefer to have a feed of, say, confirmed bugs and the content. I don't like that it's just a subject line and a tiny bit of status info. 18:13:55 the content might be configured with a few reqest args, but i doubt you can filter for confirmed bugs 18:14:01 *attila_lendvai* looks around 18:15:12 *Xach* will watch it for a while and make up his mind 18:15:20 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:16:32 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-180-249-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:16:44 peddie [n=peddie@c-67-180-249-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:04 -!- redb1ue [i=star@ppp064.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:19:49 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-180-249-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:20:00 peddie [n=peddie@c-67-180-249-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:21 dumb webapps... https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bugs?field.status!=New works, showing non-new bugs, but this one unfortunately ignores the same filtering: http://feeds.launchpad.net/sbcl/latest-bugs.atom?field.status!=New 18:23:05 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 18:23:43 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 18:24:07 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:24:12 -!- teilzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@p579154C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:26:57 teilzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@p579154C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:28 kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 18:30:28 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:32:05 nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has joined #lisp 18:33:22 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.70.171] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:34:36 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:34:49 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:37:49 -!- ejs [n=eugen@91.124.236.87] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:38:13 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:38:35 demmel [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-207-237.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:46 -!- demmel [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-207-237.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:39:16 demmel [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-207-237.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:59 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-162-45.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:42:23 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-123-94.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:43:21 w00t my sequence-iterators are blazingly fast 18:43:34 feel somewhat uneasy about (safety 0) though 18:45:30 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:02 At least with (safety 0), you'll generate an error faster. 18:54:46 does it make sense that inlining a function would make code slower? 18:55:19 yes 18:55:29 piso: interesting... how so? 18:55:34 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:55:47 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:55:52 Adlai: cache misses due to increased code size for one thing. 18:56:03 if, for example, the inlined function is very big, and interferes with the caching of the outer function 18:56:43 ahh, that makes sense. 18:56:49 that's why typically one doesn't inline very large functions 18:56:53 I asked to inline svref, so the inlined function isn't large 18:57:04 however, inlining svref doubled the size of my funciton 18:57:32 eh, not quite but increased by about 2/3 18:57:46 well, svref needs to be ready to signal an error, unless it can prove its arguments are safe 18:57:50 from [150] to [260], in CCL's disassembly. I guess those are bytes. 18:58:15 piso: the arguments to svref are declared safe in this funciton 18:58:26 function. can't type. 18:58:27 francogrex [n=user@91.177.139.85] has joined #lisp 18:58:28 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-200-220.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:58:36 TR2N [i=email@89-180-183-180.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 18:58:38 in the known-safe-arguments case the inlined code of svref should be very small 18:59:10 right, it is, but it's called a bunch of times, and the size of my function grows a lot when I inline svref. 18:59:18 ah, of course 18:59:45 but still... 19:00:34 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:00:37 the difference is VERY small, but it's consistent. 19:00:38 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-204-215.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:01:27 this was more out of curiosity 19:01:44 Adlai: isn't ccl smart enough to inline svref all by itself in the known-safe-args case? 19:02:04 (in which case it might be able to make the code more compact) 19:02:05 piso: it partially inlines it, but not entirely. 19:02:30 I guess (declare (inline svref)) messes up its inlining. I'm probably reading the disassembly wrong. 19:03:15 by "partially inline", I mean that there's still a call, but it's a call to an internal routine, not a full lisp function. 19:03:26 when it says that a lisp compiler like python compiles to machine code does it mean assembly or opcode directly? 19:03:28 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Operation timed out] 19:03:53 francogrex: Why does it matter? 19:04:00 francogrex: SBCL and CCL both produce machine code, ie, opcodes, directly. 19:04:12 it it didn't matter to me i wouldn't have asked 19:04:29 Adlai: neat, thanks 19:04:32 Adlai: ccl doesn't call anything at all here 19:04:41 (on Linux x86-64) 19:05:03 piso: that's my arch too, so I'm reading the disassembly wrong. 19:05:28 oh, yeah, I'm confused. It's performing a jump for (setf svref) 19:05:29 francogrex: I am asking because often people ask questions based on incorrect ideas, and it is better then to inform them about those ideas than to answer the litteral question. 19:05:50 svref gets compiled to (movq (@ -5 (% save2) (% arg_z)) (% arg_z)) 19:06:00 beach: i know; to explain: we have a project to understand and then write a "very simple" compîler 19:06:31 "hi, i'm trying to climb a tree using flippers, for some reason i can't get a grip of a branch. why is that?" 19:06:32 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 19:06:34 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:06:46 piso pasted "svref disassembly" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88689 19:06:50 francogrex: note though that CCL and SBCL are both able to parse machine code and reproduce assembly code from that. SBCL produces a more traditional style of assembly, while CCL has its own assembly syntax. 19:06:59 "you can try to bend those flippers to make them better suited for climbing a tree" 19:07:07 guaqua: "flippers"? 19:07:26 Adlai: there's no call in the paste I just posted 19:07:26 beach: swimming aids 19:07:35 like some birds have, divers use etc 19:07:40 piso: see above -- I was confused, it's performing a jump for (setf svref) 19:07:58 guaqua: I see, yes. 19:08:08 francogrex: if you want the compiler to be simple, generate assembly. 19:09:16 Adlai: you're right: (callq (@ .SPGVSET)) 19:09:18 francogrex: But the objective of some compilers might not be to be "as simple as possible" which is why your question might be irrelevant to your goal. 19:09:39 beach: sure, that's the original idea. It's really a small project more for teaching/mearning purposes 19:09:48 *Xach* liked reading movitz's assembler 19:10:23 francogrex: you'd probably be better off reading a simple scheme compiler, since it's a very small language. I don't know of any simple ones, though. 19:10:27 I wonder why ccl needs that call 19:10:38 Adlai: so sbcl's python can produce exact assembly code other than the output of disassemble, 19:10:39 ? 19:10:46 emma [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-czyqgnngjlzmoywe] has joined #lisp 19:11:08 piso: I know... wouldn't you just need to call movq? 19:11:13 xach: why do you like the output of movitz especially? 19:11:31 tmp pasted "loop-sum optimization" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88691 19:11:34 Adlai: I would thinks so 19:11:38 francogrex: I liked reading the source code. 19:11:47 *think 19:11:55 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 19:12:03 francogrex: It was straightforward to read and understand. 19:12:04 francogrex: what do you mean? SBCL produces machine code directly, and when you call disassemble, it parses that machine code and presents it in a more traditional syntax 19:12:17 Adlai: xcl has a call in the setf case, but I think that's just xcl lameness 19:12:20 Adlai: ok 19:12:38 I should fix that 19:12:48 francogrex: CCL does the same, although it has its own assembly syntax called LAP. 19:13:00 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:13:17 ccl's assembler is pretty amazing 19:13:27 Adlai: relatedly I know that corman lisp can embed assembly code in it's programs 19:13:46 francogrex: so can CCL and SBCL. 19:13:48 piso: how amazing? and why? 19:13:59 it's extremely complete 19:14:11 it can probably assemble code that ccl never generates 19:14:26 piso: do you mean you can copy paste it into for example "NASM" and it assembles? 19:14:38 no 19:14:39 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:14:45 Adlai pasted "CCL assembly example for francogrex" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88692 19:15:26 francogrex: it's a bit Lispy, but still translates directly to machine code 19:15:57 piso: yep, CCL parses binary code and constructs that syntax each time you call disassemble. 19:16:21 francogrex: lisp assemblers (and disassemblers) use their own format, just as the gnu assembler uses a different format compared to microsoft's assembler 19:16:27 Adlai, piso: that's indeed complete 19:16:36 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-162-45.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:16:53 CCL is just unique in having a format which is completely its own. 19:17:09 can you maybe post the disassemble output from sbcl of the same func for comparison. 19:17:22 sbcl uses microsoft format (more properly called intel format) for its disassembler 19:17:22 I was actually really confused until I figured out that CCL does "(arg src dest)" rather than the traditional "arg dest,src" 19:17:42 arg src dest is gnu assembler order 19:18:06 Adlai: indeed arg dest,src is what I'm familiar with 19:18:24 Adlai annotated #88692 "SBCL example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88692#1 19:18:32 but it is less logical/intuitive 19:18:35 Adlai: traditional? 19:18:36 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:45 -!- Pepe__ [n=ppjet@mna75-4-82-225-76-148.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:18:58 piso annotated #88689 "xcl's svref disassembly" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88689#1 19:18:58 -!- dmiles [n=dmiles@76.104.220.73] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:19:09 pkhuong: maybe it's not traditional, but it's the only syntax I encountered in the past, and it does seem more common than vice versa. 19:19:51 *francogrex* wonders: for someone who knows no CL but knows a little assembly with output posted by Adlai is more readble/understandable? 19:20:55 piso: hey, I like how your disassembler shows both the machine code and the parsed assembly. That probably helps while debugging the compiler. 19:21:05 yeah 19:21:34 piso: at 28C6966, seems like you want some x86 complex addressing goodness (: 19:21:42 minion: xcl 19:21:44 xcl: XCL is a Common lisp implementation licensed under GPL. http://www.cliki.net/xcl 19:21:59 pkhuong: some day... :) 19:22:44 Adlai: I'm not sure if you noticed, but the machine code is also shown in the sbcl disassembly that you pasted ;-) 19:23:23 -!- kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:23:35 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 19:23:42 jsnell: true, but it seems less readable to me... that might be because I've been sheltered from raw hex. Maybe it's just as easy to read as XCL's disassembly. 19:23:53 piso: would bound checks in a single comparison for 0 <= x <= k (with an unsigned comparison) be easier, at 28C691E? 19:24:34 pkhuong: yeah, I noticed your comment about that yesterday, but I didn't quite see how it would work 19:25:32 piso: just treat the signed integer x as an unsigned. If it's negative, its MSB will be 1, and x [as an unsigned] >>> k. 19:25:38 -!- reprore [n=reprore@116.82.73.92] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:26:15 OPTIMIZATION #31 (: 19:26:39 ok, it's on my list to fix that 19:26:52 piso: is there a way to track XCL development? 19:26:56 right after I fix setf svref 19:26:58 (last I checked it was just tarballs) 19:27:09 jsnell: can one do anything useful with that machine code next to the assembly code in the output? 19:27:15 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-129-134.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 19:27:20 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:27:25 francogrex: learn x86-64 machine code :) 19:27:27 Adlai: it's still just tarballs, but there is now a bit more information on http://armedbear.org 19:27:45 one can figure out if the disassembly is actually correct 19:27:48 Do you think #30 can be deleted, not that it compiles to a CALL and a CMOVcc, or a CALL and a Jcc. 19:27:57 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60.241.1.206] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 19:27:58 *now that 19:28:36 piso: any chance of a git/darcs/svn/etc repo? 19:29:48 Adlai: /me is reading PC Assembly Language Paul A. Carter July 23, 2006 19:30:32 (and my patch for #39 seems to be working! :) 19:30:41 Adlai: soon 19:30:49 bye 19:30:54 -!- serichse1 [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06f961.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["bbl"] 19:33:22 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-8-173.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:33:23 OT: A 6 year old is trapped in an experimental balloon made by his parents that floated away near Fort Collins, CO. 19:33:28 -!- coyo [n=alex@ppp-70-129-141-101.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit ["sudo nmap -A -PN localhost"] 19:34:02 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:34:21 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:34:48 tmh: that's wicked 19:34:50 I've been watching that on CNN for the last half hour 19:34:50 tmh: IN the balloon, or connected to the balloon? 19:34:55 poor boy 19:35:15 It's down to about 400' from the ground, so it should be on the ground in a minute or so 19:35:28 In the balloon. My buddy in Denver just IM'd me that he is descending at about 30-35 ft/min. Pretty fast, but survivable. 19:35:40 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Verlassend"] 19:35:43 I hope they can get some sort of fireman's trampoline beneath him 19:35:44 And he's down 19:35:51 Good. 19:36:00 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:36:01 drgnvale: ok; I hope he'll be fine 19:36:14 and? 19:36:14 Now we find out if he was actually in it, his brother claimed he saw him fall out earlier 19:36:18 drgnvale: Why are you telling #lisp about this? I don't even know what it is about. 19:36:28 Sorry beach, I started it. 19:37:05 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:37:05 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:37:27 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:38:20 marioxcc [n=user@200.56.152.209] has joined #lisp 19:38:43 it's ok; an intense event 19:39:46 Last comment I'll make on it: Video makes it seem like no one was in it after all 19:40:23 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 19:40:41 pkhuong: Say the iterator returned nil, i.e. the iterator is exhausted, what should (place) and (setf (place) ...) do? 19:40:56 pkhuong: Should it signal an error, or return/update the last element? 19:41:33 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:41:38 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-65-111.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:42:06 Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-75-91.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:42:11 tcr: die or not specified. 19:42:57 Signalling an error is not so easy because the index would easily get out of boundaries (i.e. with :from-end t, the index would become -1 which is not an unsigned-byte anymore) 19:43:29 Yeah unspecified is good. 19:43:38 -!- demmel [n=Adium@dslb-188-098-207-237.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:44:06 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:46:28 Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has joined #lisp 19:47:03 hi, is there a clean way to get a list of files in a directory with sbcl? 19:47:13 egn: yes 19:48:42 minion: cl-fad for egn 19:48:43 egn: please look at cl-fad: CL-FAD is a portable pathname library based on code from Peter Seibel's book Practical Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/cl-fad 19:48:54 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-20-145.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:49:02 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:49:21 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:49:26 Adlai: thanks 19:50:02 tcr: that's one reason why splitting endp and advance can be interesting, but since you can just get random garbage once you've been told that the iterated sequence has been exhausted... not an issue. 19:51:02 ramus`_ [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-146-165.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:10 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-33-92-164.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:53:19 tcr: in case no-one has commented on your nthcdr paste yet: nthcdr is not transformed away in either of your test[12] functions 19:53:20 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:53:21 attila_lendvai: I know about the reported bugs feed, but it's useless to me 19:53:24 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 19:53:39 what I need is a feed containing new messages to each bug, and so on, nicely threaded 19:53:46 much as you might get, say, if you were using an e-mail based system 19:54:00 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:55:30 well, launchpad sends a mail at each update if you subscribe to it, and your mail client should thread it based on the subject... 19:55:38 You mean... like you get if you dump the launchpad notifications through gmail? 19:55:39 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:55:51 -!- sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 19:56:16 (Admittedly, I haven't figured out how to persuade gmail to dump the launchpad emails to the right place automatically. There just doesn't seem to be a filter control for it.) 19:56:27 at https://launchpad.net/sbcl/ there's a "Subscribe to bug mail" 19:57:03 gmail's filters suck 19:58:02 nyef: my filter is: Subject: [Bug and Has the words: launchpad.net. but yeah, had i subscribed to two feeds it'd suck 19:58:07 ASau [n=user@83.237.167.118] has joined #lisp 19:58:30 The thing is, if you could tell gmail to filter on an arbitrary header, it'd be fine. 19:59:36 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 19:59:46 my mail client threads based on References: headers; does launchpad e-mail actually have correct references, or do you just get a bunch of e-mails with the same subject, no matter whether you're replying to reply #1 or #100? 20:00:07 well, it's sleep time for me. good luck with it! 20:00:31 (unfortunately lp emails suck) 20:00:37 -!- emma [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-czyqgnngjlzmoywe] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:02:06 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.157.122] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:02:22 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 20:04:23 -!- mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6D5D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:04:23 -!- ASau [n=user@83.237.167.118] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:05:11 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:05:57 -!- [Jackal_] [n=Jackal@118.95.53.144] has quit [Client Quit] 20:13:07 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:30 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.85] has joined #lisp 20:14:47 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 20:15:37 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:15:50 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:16:40 kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 20:16:40 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:17:07 SBCL keeps telling me about lambdas it converted when run under TIME. Any info on what this means or (assuming that converting lambdas is slowing things down) how to reduce that number? 20:17:42 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:17:56 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:21:03 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-123-94.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:21:28 -!- morphling [n=stefan@89.14.141.70] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:23:08 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:23:10 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.155.133.245] has joined #lisp 20:23:16 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:24:54 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:26:58 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:27:13 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 20:27:24 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:28:22 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.177.139.85] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:28:53 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.155.133.245] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:29:02 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.155.133.245] has joined #lisp 20:30:13 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:30:37 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:31:01 serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06f961.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:01 re 20:32:44 ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.136.215] has joined #lisp 20:34:07 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 20:34:43 -!- dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit [Client Quit] 20:35:09 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.85] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:35:14 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:37:44 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:38:11 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:39:32 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:39:48 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:43:10 seangrov` [n=user@173.11.104.25] has joined #lisp 20:43:27 -!- ramus`_ [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-146-165.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:45:56 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.85] has joined #lisp 20:46:11 -!- seangrov` [n=user@173.11.104.25] has quit [Client Quit] 20:47:56 -!- seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:48:05 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 20:48:57 seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:45 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:38 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.88.148] has joined #lisp 20:51:52 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:52:13 -!- ol3```` [n=user@82.113.106.145] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:52:55 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:55:19 -!- nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:56:50 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has quit [Success] 20:57:03 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:57:26 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:59:56 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:00:53 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:15 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:09:07 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:09:43 -!- kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:09:46 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 21:10:10 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 21:14:45 francogrex [n=user@91.177.139.85] has joined #lisp 21:18:22 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 21:19:26 Adlai: you had said that one can embedd asm into sbcl. Do you have a link for an example? 21:20:00 francogrex: for SBCL, no, although I've done it myself for CCL (badly) 21:20:00 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:21:11 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 21:21:32 francogrex: some other people here probably know about this better than I do 21:21:45 *Adlai* pokes pkhuong and Xof and a few others 21:22:33 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:23:04 -!- dfdf [n=aerw@126-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:23:50 Adlai, it's ok. I'll try to search some more on the net 21:23:58 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.177.139.85] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:24:19 boo hoo 21:24:24 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442868.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 21:24:48 well, if he comes back, point him at http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/rot.lisp and http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/rc5.lisp 21:24:53 Krystof: ah, maybe you can help fra^I 21:26:37 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:29:12 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:06 milanj [n=milan@93.87.167.128] has joined #lisp 21:36:39 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has joined #lisp 21:36:40 krystof maybe leave him a memo 21:38:26 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195.50.215.32] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:38:33 it's no skin off my nose 21:39:21 Btw, should I repost my warning bug to launchpad? 21:39:46 minion: memo for francogrex: Krystof pointed out http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/rot.lisp and http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/rc5.lisp 21:39:47 Remembered. I'll tell francogrex when he/she/it next speaks. 21:40:02 gigamonkey [n=user@216.70.181.80] has joined #lisp 21:40:08 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:40:31 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust936.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:41:06 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:41:06 -!- mrSpec is now known as wrn 21:41:09 -!- wrn [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has left #lisp 21:41:28 dandersen [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 21:42:30 clhs flet 21:42:31 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm 21:43:21 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.155.133.245] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:43:21 -!- nvoorhies_ is now known as nvoorhies 21:44:15 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:44:26 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 21:45:11 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:45:41 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:46:07 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [] 21:46:25 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 21:47:13 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:53:19 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:53:29 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.56.152.209] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:54:57 marioxcc [n=user@200.56.152.209] has joined #lisp 21:55:44 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:56:27 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:58:05 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust936.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 21:58:33 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:58:35 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:59:11 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:01:18 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:19 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:04:49 good night 22:05:00 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06f961.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["nightfall in bergedorf"] 22:08:04 rares [n=rares@130.13.176.255] has joined #lisp 22:08:09 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:08:17 -!- rares [n=rares@130.13.176.255] has left #lisp 22:08:35 ASau [n=user@83.237.167.118] has joined #lisp 22:09:11 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-173.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:11:53 -!- drgnvale [n=acristin@209.16.73.144] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:12:36 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 22:13:05 Hi guys, anyone have suggestions for a cl library similar to numpy for python? 22:13:22 Sikander: I don't speak snake, what are you looking for? 22:14:48 Adlai: numpy is a library for numerical stuff. Mostly reading, processing and writing of arrays of numbers. Very useful when processing experimental data. 22:15:10 I should say, easy processing of arrays of numbers 22:15:41 *Fast* and easy. 22:16:06 Yeah, but the fast is because it uses compiled libraries 22:16:37 I guess that (sb)cl won't have that much of an issue there even if it's native 22:17:56 No one encountered something like that? 22:18:08 -!- sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:18:57 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:19:01 Sikander: I'm sure there are such libraries, but I haven't used any 22:19:07 Wait, I just found matlisp. Anyone familiar with that? 22:19:10 either stick around and somebody will know 22:19:33 Adlai: You may not speak snake, but you speak with a distinct... lisp... 22:19:37 or, look at Ironclad, which is a crypto lib -- it probably either has fast numerical stuff, or uses libraries that supply it 22:19:45 minion: ironclad for Sikander 22:19:46 Sikander: please look at ironclad: Ironclad is a Common Lisp Cryptography package; several block encryption algorithms and hash functions are included with the initial release. http://www.cliki.net/ironclad 22:20:08 thanks, I'll have a look 22:23:10 -!- zeroish [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:23:33 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-241.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 22:23:52 Sikander: there is also cl-blapack, and I use cl-numeri for my own purposes, http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~ndantam3/docs/cl-numeri/ 22:24:13 Well, last matlisp version was 2.0beta, which was released 6 years ago yesterday... 22:24:29 ntd: nice, I'll have a look at that as well. Thanks 22:24:45 i think matlisp has more recent activity in svn 22:25:06 i was kind of put off by them including their own copies of the blas/lapack libraries, however 22:25:11 Sikander: http://common-lisp.net/project/gsll 22:25:49 dv___ [n=dv@85-127-109-82.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:26:39 LiamH: ah, nice. I was looking for something like that. figured it would go by the name of clgsl or such 22:27:37 Sikander: It's still under development, but quite usable. Suggestions encouraged. 22:28:17 ol3```` [n=user@82.113.121.159] has joined #lisp 22:28:56 These days I'm thinking about how to input arrays conveniently. Unfortunately I've not had much time to work on it though. 22:29:46 -!- ASau [n=user@83.237.167.118] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:29:48 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.88.148] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:30:21 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:30:25 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 22:30:34 LiamH: Nice stuff actually. I've used gsl often (in C) and I like how you can easily set up an environment in gsll. Very lispy 22:31:06 Sikander: Thanks. That was the idea :-) 22:32:02 Great suggestions! I guess using these I can write my own "environment" to do data processing 22:33:38 ntd: are you developer of cl-numeri? 22:34:36 Sikander: For general guide to packages CLiki is a good place to start, e.g. http://www.cliki.net/Mathematics 22:35:16 LiamH: Ah, I got stuck browsing through the list of libraries. 22:35:27 I found stuff like array-operations etc. 22:35:44 but not quite what I was looking for (while scrolling through a large list) 22:37:53 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 22:37:56 Sikander: Right; on the home page http://www.cliki.net/index there is a category "by application domain" which has cryptography, games, etc. 22:38:32 sometimes the categories are not all that clear-cut, but I find it useful for at least enriching the sample 22:39:03 So that's where it was hiding ;) 22:39:21 I find cliki difficult to navigate *shame* 22:39:44 Also try http://www.cl-user.net/ -> By Topic 22:40:00 different database, but a lot of overlap 22:40:30 Sikander: yes, i develop cl-numeri 22:40:47 -!- h3 [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:40:49 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 22:41:15 ntd: seem nice as well. I notice there isn't really a way to read in ascii data files (or am I missing something)? Do you just roll your own each time? 22:41:50 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:41:52 hmm, i've not yet gotten around to implementing csv, etc. reading 22:42:00 h3 [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 22:42:03 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 22:42:17 since you (I assume) use it, how do you generally read in data files? 22:42:30 LiamH: whoa, cl-user shows me there's an Nlisp as well! 22:43:05 LiamH: did you ever contact those guys? They say that a complete gsl is missing... 22:43:11 Sikander: Yes, I have. 22:43:31 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:36 They were interested in GSLL and promised to pursue it, but I've not heard back from them. 22:43:47 so what's the deal, no one interested in making a great big unified wrapper around all the numerical libraries? 22:43:47 ah 22:44:03 I think they started doing something with it, but maybe ran short of time. I can sympathize. 22:44:37 Sikander: I think a lot of us are interested in that, but it takes work and time. We're getting there incrementally. 22:45:03 Sikander: i actually haven't read in data files yet. cl-numeri is rather immature at the moment 22:45:22 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:09 LiamH: weird, their example actually suggests making a cffi binding for a gsl function right there. 22:46:29 Right, that page predates GSLL by quite a bit. 22:47:18 Sikander: I think maybe the biggest impediment to a grand unified numerical library is how to represent vectors/matrices 22:47:56 ntd: That is a big problem. Unfortunately, since the foreign world isn't unified either, it makes it harder. 22:49:10 I'm not sure what numpy (the python thing) uses. But it wraps atlas (blas, lapack) and some fft and gsl I think. 22:49:36 -!- phoenixi [n=tuomosa@a85-156-197-4.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 22:49:39 For instance, I have a colleague that uses GSLL and wrote a CL interface to a robotics library written in C++ which is based on eigen2. But eigen2 isn't universally used in the C++ world. 22:49:45 I think numpy defines them as almost contiguous chunks 22:50:49 Regarding the vector/matrix thing, numpy defines some functions to make the arrays "contiguous". That means, I guess, in C or Fortran notation (row/column major) 22:50:50 LiamH: In C/Fortran, you can at least always get down to a chunk of memory somewhere. You can do that sometimes for lisp arrays, but it's not very portable. 22:52:25 Sikander: I know something about matlisp. 22:52:32 ntd: That really isn't the problem; I have that covered in GSLL, provided the data is stored linearly row-major. Basically it's a just-in-time copy for non-SBCL, and something like Tamas Papp's foreign-friendly arrays for SBCL, which supports direct access to foreign arrays in CL. The problem is the metadata. 22:52:39 ntd, LiamH : So the numpy arrays can be represented like that. I guess it keeps track of the representation internally, while the user doesn't really notice this 22:53:12 rtoym: experiences? Good? Bad? Ugly? 22:53:31 Sikander: right, that's the way to go. 22:53:32 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:53:33 LiamH: offset, stride? 22:53:42 Sikander: Disclaimer: I wrote part of it. Works ok. Some people like it. 22:53:45 ntd: yeah, well, unfortunately not yet. 22:53:58 ntd: But I've always wondered: why? 22:54:00 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:54:14 LiamH: Would that mean CLOS? 22:54:16 ntd: do those really get used? 22:54:42 jenia pasted "2d vector" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88714 22:54:43 Sikander: yes, GSLL uses classes to define the foreign array objects 22:54:48 rtoym: Well, I'm going to give all of them a try 22:55:00 LiamH: why what? 22:55:10 rtoym: how about adding static arrays to cmucl ? 22:55:14 ntd: offset and stride, are they really used? 22:55:21 LiamH: That would make it simple(r) to change represetations internally while keeping the access consistent. So what's the problem? 22:55:34 ntd: and if so, is it possible to not use them? 22:55:50 Sikander: Time to code it up. 22:55:52 LiamH: it could be very useful if you want to refer to a single row of a matrix stored in column major order. This is important for a lot of algorithms. 22:55:57 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@216.70.181.80] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:56:00 fe[nl]ix: I'd like static arrays, but I don't know how to do that. 22:56:02 LiamH: I understand :) 22:56:13 ntd: GSLL (and GSL) has a #'row function. 22:56:40 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:57:05 ntd: Why is an in-place reference to an array slice necessary? I can see it for gargantuan arrays that you don't want to copy, but for everything else, just copy out the data. 22:57:30 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-116.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:57:55 rtoym: malloc() space for vector+tag+padding and make it a lisp object. http://paste.lisp.org/display/79633#8 is an implementation for SBCL 22:57:57 LiamH: you're right, for small arrays the overhead is minimal. 22:58:04 Ok, so as I see, there are these nice numerical libraries, wrappers around blas, lapack and gsl... Also some nice environments like cl-numeri, matlisp, nlisp... Lots to try out I guess 22:58:14 Sikander: but that's where I'm going, I think my colleague and I will hook GSLL marrays into eigen2, so that's a start. 22:58:43 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has left #lisp 22:58:58 ntd: I pretty much live in a small-array world, so I guess the offset/stride issue hasn't been a priority for me. But I understand it's an issue for some people. 22:59:00 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 23:00:04 fe[nl]ix: Interesting.... I guess that works. My desire was a static array that would automatically get GCed. 23:00:20 LiamH, ntd: what's the typical size of arrays you work with? I don't know if my data sets are considered small or large: 50k rows and 3 to 6 columns 23:00:50 LiamH, ntd: I would consider offset and stride useful, I guess 23:00:58 rtoym: mine too, but that means modifying the GC. definitely more difficult 23:01:06 *LiamH* lives in physical space 3x3... or phase space 6x6 23:01:26 dkcl` [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 23:01:32 well actually number of observations can get large, but hundreds would be a maximum dimension 23:01:52 LiamH: what type of stuff do you do? 23:02:26 fe[nl]ix: I did look into it a while back, because the GC knows not to move things, but then I don't know how to GC it. Alhough I guess you can do the preserve pointer on the stack trick. But that doesn't work for globals. 23:02:28 Sikander: orbit mechanics and robotics. And you? 23:02:46 LiamH: cavity qed 23:02:47 Sikander: i'll be some some vision-ish stuff soon, some matrices in the ten thousands of elements 23:03:03 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:03:14 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:03:14 Sikander: does the 50k dimension come from a mesh? 23:03:43 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 23:03:44 LiamH: Holy crap dude, I just used rk4 with gsll in a short script (~60 lines) to simulate a quantum dot in a cavity! Works great! 23:04:05 LiamH: Yes, the large arrays are usually from the experiment... 23:04:13 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.167.128] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:04:15 another satisfied customer! 23:04:17 rtoym, fe[nl]ix: There is a CFFI call to get a pointer to array data and pin the array 23:04:37 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:04:37 woo gsll is nice! The C code for this same thing took me ages to write and debug! 23:04:49 in all fairness, I used one of the demos... 23:05:00 and wrote my own functions to integrate... 23:05:01 GSLL demos? 23:05:10 examples 23:05:20 That's what they're there for. 23:05:23 ntd: How does CFFI pin the array? 23:05:27 Since there's no real manual. 23:05:40 I have no problem learning by example 23:05:41 rtoym: you could add a malloc() tag to pointers, which would cause the GC to free() that memory 23:05:50 The best stuff is copy-pasted anyway 23:05:56 ;D 23:06:03 Sikander: That's how I learn, so that was the highest priority for me for the documentation. 23:06:14 rtoym: that way, static arrays and structs for FFI would be easy to have 23:06:21 LiamH: so what's the question with the mesh? 23:06:47 Sikander: you said you had a dimension of 50k, is that from laying down a mesh in the cavity? 23:07:00 rtoym: on SBCL it works (I think) by essentially pushing a word on the stack (there's an SBCL-specific call to make this happen). Not sure what happens in other lisps. 23:07:29 LiamH: the 50k rows with basically an "x" column and multiple (two to five) "y" columns come from experimental data. 23:07:43 OK 23:07:56 LiamH: No, not a mesh in the cavity. It's usually something like energy vs all sorts of detector readouts 23:08:05 I see 23:08:06 -!- Yuuhi`` [i=benni@p5483DF7B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:08:18 I'm getting a weird error from SBCL 23:08:25 it's telling me that I'm redefining a structure class, when I'm not. 23:08:47 I've deleted fasls, and it warns at the end of recompiling the file. 23:08:49 Weird errors are the only type I get from sbcl... :( 23:09:09 fe[nl]ix: That's an interesting idea. The static array would be (maybe) a non-simple array and the data vector part could be malloced memory. 23:09:14 Sikander: The examples/tests in GSLL started out as my own invention, until I found out that GSL has a set of regression tests built-in, and since that time I've ported those. But most are still thinks I made up. 23:09:28 sbcl/asdf gurus: any ideas what this could be? 23:09:54 ntd: Ok. CMUCL doesn't have that feature, so maybe it's only for sbcl. 23:10:09 LiamH: the environments are really useful. Just setting that up in C already takes as much typing as the whole simulation took in CL! I love macro's! 23:10:30 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@99.33.92.164] has joined #lisp 23:10:51 oh shit 23:10:56 here comes an S! 23:11:22 *ntd* checks cffi source 23:11:26 LiamH: how would one typically read or write data from/to a file? Well, except for iterating over the arrays... 23:11:43 At this moment I'm just using format 23:11:52 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.54.66] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:12:00 rtoym: the CFFI #'with-pointer-to-vector-data function is also implemented for CMUCL. It works by temporarily disabling the GC. 23:12:48 kerimbasol_ [n=kerim@85.107.146.214] has joined #lisp 23:14:20 This is an SBCL-specific problem -- I don't get this error on CCL or CLISP 23:14:20 Sikander: That's how I do it. At one time I tried to support GSL's reading and writing routines, but I don't think there's a portable way to connect to C streams, so I gave up. 23:14:51 LiamH: So how do you read? 23:15:24 Sikander: just iterate line by line, then read-from-string 23:15:24 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:15:39 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:15:43 LiamH: ah, so no csv. Ok 23:15:53 ntd: Is with-pointer-to-vector-data portable across implementations? 23:15:54 I use tabs or spaces anyway... 23:16:05 marioxcc` [n=user@200.56.152.209] has joined #lisp 23:16:26 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:16:28 Sikander: csv is not a huge obstacle, you can remove/replace them pretty easily 23:16:35 the commas that is 23:17:21 LiamH: sort of... It does the right thing for the implementations that provide the feature, but doesn't for those that don't. ie, on CLISP, it does a copy in and copy out. 23:17:45 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.56.152.209] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:17:52 -!- marioxcc` is now known as marioxcc 23:17:52 Yeah, I know. To collect data I use python anyway; we have a labview-free lab 23:18:07 ntd: Thanks, I've wanted to look into that... I think I will incorporate that into GSLL. 23:18:41 LiamH: so when collecting data with python, the arrays are written with space as separators by default 23:18:49 ntd: Since I basically have coded that up already but not portably, I copied from foreign-friendly arrays. 23:19:02 Sikander: perfect 23:19:47 LiamH: gsll seems actually best suited for writing simulations 23:20:01 Sikander: as opposed to? 23:20:49 LiamH: processing data :) I'm pretending to be an experimentalist :D 23:21:04 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:21:22 ASau [n=user@83.237.167.118] has joined #lisp 23:21:26 Sikander: OK, but I don't see why you can't process data. The in/out isn't a huge problem, is it? 23:22:00 LiamH: I'll publish a library for creating static arrays, if you're interested 23:22:20 fe[nl]ix: Absolutely 23:22:48 LiamH: well, I like slicing and dicing :( Perform operations (transforms) on a single column, or combining several columns, in an easy way. I'd have to write some extra code for that, which I'll most likely do eventually 23:23:17 LiamH: I have it covered natively on Allegro, LW & CCL and with http://paste.lisp.org/display/79633#8 on SBCL 23:23:42 probably it won't be too difficult to port 79633#8 to CMUCL too 23:23:48 So... what's the difference between a static array and a normal array? What does the "static" mean in this case? 23:24:06 Sikander: understood; do those operations exist in GSL, or in some other foreign library? 23:25:29 LiamH: No they don't exist in gsl as far as I know. They are usually "provided" by array languages. I think matlab has it (but I don't like matlab), numpy has it, but I like cl more than I do python (why use a close-to-lisp language when you can use cl?!) 23:26:04 LiamH: So I guess that they should/could be implemented as functions and macros in cl 23:26:20 Sikander: I'm interested in a pointer to a concise description of what functions you are looking for, if such a thing exists. 23:26:37 Sikander: static arrays don't get moved by the GC, so are suitable for being used for FFI without interfering with the GC 23:26:52 LiamH: Since your arrays are clos objects, I guess it would be possible to specialise + and friends 23:26:53 fe[nl]ix: aha 23:27:17 Sikander: not really, you can't redefine CL functions 23:27:38 LiamH: you can't define them as methods? dammit. 23:27:40 Sikander: but you can make a new function certainly.... elt+ 23:28:41 Sikander: The only trick you can pull is to not import the CL package, define your own package with a new #'+ that may reference #'CL:+. But it's a bad idea in my experience for + and *, because those symbols have non-function usage. 23:29:08 Sikander: I meant to say shadow the symbols. 23:29:55 Sikander: The problem comes from things like declarations which use * in them, or for referring to previous output. You would always have to say cl:*, kind of annoying. 23:30:02 LiamH: Erm, concise... well, I'll have a look. I think an arbitrary numpy tutorial would already explain a lot. You can "stack" columns together to form a larger array, you can slice, or add and multiply arrays element-wise and so on 23:30:47 Sikander: Malcolm Reynolds just sent me some routines he wrote to do some of that. I'm going to try to merge what I can. 23:31:16 zeroish [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 23:31:26 LiamH: I see your point. I'm sorry to keep dragging numpy into this,but that's where my experience lies: numpy _does_ specialise those, but that's because python allows it in a way without shadowing the original meanings 23:31:47 LiamH: I only know one Malcolm Reynolds... 23:31:56 Any ideas about this odd SBCL behavior? 23:32:03 LiamH: I seriously doubt you mean him :) 23:32:11 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:32:22 Sikander: I'm interested in what numpy does, I'm just saying that CL doesn't really allow specializing built-in functions. 23:32:43 mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6D81C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:07 LiamH: Yeah, I guess I can always make functions as you suggested, elt+ or array+ 23:33:14 Sikander: well I can't find his stuff right now, but he has a GSLL fork on github. 23:33:29 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 23:33:29 http://github.com/malcolmreynolds/GSLL/ 23:33:39 LiamH: Great, I'll have a look, thanks 23:33:53 Look in utils 23:33:59 concat.lisp 23:34:01 I guess a+ would also do? aref , a+, a- etc? 23:34:11 Sikander: sure 23:35:11 LiamH: *if* you ever find the time, maybe you might want to look into the numpy thing. However, if I'm sufficiently interested in gsll and keep using it, I might want to add (and contribute) parts of said functionality. 23:35:43 -!- timor [n=martin@87.234.97.27] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:35:58 Absolutely, please do. I will get the time again. The semester is ending in December. 23:37:41 Well, thanks for all the pointers and thanks for giving me a way to write fast simulations... fast :) I can't believe I did in about five minutes what took me a few hours in C. 23:37:42 -!- ASau [n=user@83.237.167.118] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:37:48 Time for me to go to bed 23:38:10 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:38:18 Sikander: Good luck. Join the GSLL mailing list, I'd like to see what you've done. 23:38:20 ASau [n=user@83.237.167.118] has joined #lisp 23:38:47 ah, too late 23:42:59 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:43:46 Bye all, interesting discussion, I will follow up on new things learned. 23:45:01 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:50:53 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81.226.253.54] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:51:15 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-75-91.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 23:53:34 -!- ASau [n=user@83.237.167.118] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:54:06 ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:57:29 can anyone recommend a lib for doing 2D graphics 23:57:40 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 23:57:58 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:58:32 there is quite an array on Cliki and its not clear which have merit 23:59:36 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp83-237-167-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:59:57 -!- benny` is now known as benny