00:00:13 -!- aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:00:45 this page name will be a function name 00:01:00 and evaluated at expansion time 00:01:58 if the widget is a border page it will be a (macro border-page-name ( 00:02:20 (defmacro border-page-name 00:02:45 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:03:53 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:03:53 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:04:06 ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 00:04:11 redblue [i=star@ppp123.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:04:30 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:08:36 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:08:36 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:09:11 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:09:20 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 00:09:23 ayrnieu: thanks i think that i need read i more about macros, thanks 00:10:38 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-180-249-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:11:08 ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 00:12:33 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:12:41 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:13:30 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:16:45 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:18:49 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-25-244.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:19:44 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:20:52 I just tried to add #'+ to the list of profiled functions in SBCL using sb-profile:profile and after executing the function, profile reported that #'+ was not called when it had to have been called. Why was #'+ not profiled? 00:21:51 tmh: + is never actually called unless you really dynamically call it, always inlined 00:22:26 tracing and profiling builtin functions is not guaranteed to work 00:22:40 kpreid: ok, thanks. 00:22:56 *Xach* forgot that profile is not standard, and was going to refer to 11.1.2.1.2 00:24:42 (declare (notinline +)) might (or might not) help 00:26:04 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:26:44 ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 00:28:57 mdh [n=user@cpe-76-88-124-101.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:29:15 -!- seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:30:11 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 00:30:56 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:31:21 ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined 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[n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 00:40:07 Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has joined #lisp 00:41:37 -!- tmitt [n=seg@adsl-150-224-7.tys.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:42:34 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.152] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:47:25 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:47:35 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:47:35 arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 00:48:25 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:53:22 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:53:33 ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 00:56:46 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:01:20 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:05:05 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.129] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:07:37 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has quit [] 01:09:18 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-69-206.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:09:18 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:10:04 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@ram94-7-82-232-191-53.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:11:29 Pepe_ [n=ppjet@ram94-7-82-232-191-53.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:04 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:12:04 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:12:39 ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 01:13:31 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:14:00 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@72.228.150.44] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:14:10 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 01:17:23 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:18:29 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:21 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:22:32 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-kcrlpkrsunuplztn] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:24:48 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@90.3.67.225] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 01:28:11 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:31:23 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:32:05 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:32:15 ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 01:37:29 Interesting, for sufficiently complicated recursive functions, when you redefine it with a changed argument count, SBCL emits a warning about wrong argcount. 01:37:29 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:37:51 ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 01:40:26 ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 01:45:13 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 01:46:13 well another basic macro problem that i am having, thanks for all 01:46:21 salva pasted "macro basics" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88614 01:47:02 <_3b> salva: you need to put the prog inside the ` 01:47:06 <_3b> *progn 01:47:31 one in each? 01:47:41 <_3b> you can only return 1 form from a macro 01:47:48 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:47:55 ops 01:47:57 <_3b> but you can put multiple forms inside a progn 01:48:18 <_3b> so if you want the macro to do more than 1 thing, you can expand to a progn with multiple forms inside of that 01:49:05 i have two no nested ` i must create a parent `(progn ? 01:49:10 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 01:49:46 <_3b> you probably want `(progn ... ,@(loop ... collect `(...))) there 01:50:11 <_3b> also, put the collect on the line with what it is collecting, instead of after the for 01:52:18 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:53:35 Ok, I reduced a testcase. 01:53:38 _3b thanks seems work well now 01:55:31 i'm lookig for a way to macroexpand more levels of macros but dont find how 01:56:27 with macroexpand and macroexpand-1 i only get the first macro expanded 01:56:55 <_3b> sb-cltl2:macroexpand-all on sbcl maybe? 01:57:28 <_3b> or expand it with slime, and then expand the parts of the results you are interested in from there 01:57:30 on sbcl thnaks, i dont see that in completion repl 01:57:34 salva, if you use SLIME, you could try it's MacroExpand mode 01:57:44 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:58:24 *its 01:58:29 macroexpand mode, thanks i'll serach about that, 01:58:49 <_3b> C-c C-m at beginning of form you want to expand 01:59:11 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:59:19 _3b try expand the parts but i have problemm to get the params 01:59:30 ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 02:00:01 http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/slime_002dmacroexpansion_002dminor_002dmode.html http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Macro_002dexpansion.html 02:00:42 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441179.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:04:36 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:05:43 drownfish [n=drownfis@adsl-99-31-155-73.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:48 psismondi [n=user@d24-150-10-209.home.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:02 Vonunov [n=jack@99.58.1.192] has joined #lisp 02:09:09 -!- psismondi [n=user@d24-150-10-209.home.cgocable.net] has left #lisp 02:12:36 -!- metasyntax` [n=user@71.127.125.129] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:14:23 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:16:41 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.41] has joined #lisp 02:21:32 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:21:32 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:21:52 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:22:02 ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 02:23:26 billitch [n=billitch@78.236.153.65] has joined #lisp 02:24:01 hi ! 02:24:32 is there a backtrace / debugging guru around here ? 02:25:55 <_3b> billitch: works better to ask a concrete question 02:25:58 minion: lisppaste for billitch 02:25:59 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 02:26:18 i tried using trivial-backtrace and swank to get backtrace of a condition but the top of the stack is giving me the backtracing function 02:26:40 not the one which generated the condition 02:27:04 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:27:22 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 02:28:31 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:29:48 it is as if handler-case and handler-bind were reached only after some stack unwinding 02:30:05 which makes the backtrace not really useful 02:30:21 male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:33 i'm writing a simplified paste ... 02:31:03 billitch: handler-case IS only reached after some stack unwinding. 02:31:07 clhs handler-case 02:31:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_hand_1.htm 02:31:37 it'd be best if you pasted your actual code. 02:35:43 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:36:42 -!- drownfish [n=drownfis@adsl-99-31-155-73.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:38:10 billitch pasted "backtrace wrong top frame" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88615 02:38:57 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:39:02 greetings 02:40:01 adlai: thanks, it explains the problem, but is there a way not to unwind ? 02:40:24 handler-bind doesn't unwind 02:40:31 however, you need to pass it a function 02:40:36 clhs handler-bind 02:40:36 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_handle.htm 02:41:42 chavo_ [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:02 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:43:03 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:44:05 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:44:38 ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 02:44:55 Adlai: thank you ! 02:45:04 I deserved to rtfm... 02:45:58 i thought handler-bin and handler-case were much similar but not at all 02:45:58 billitch: have you looked at PCL? 02:46:01 the book? 02:47:54 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:49:10 no, the only book i have onpaper is anatomy of lisp 02:49:24 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:49:28 and it is a bit old ^^ 02:50:20 minion: pcl for billitch 02:50:22 billitch: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 02:50:36 billitch: There's a great chapter there about the condition system. 02:52:04 oh yes i read it a few times actually 02:52:33 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:52:46 very helpful 02:53:47 Is there any quick way to synchronize the package in the REPL with the package used in the code window (lisp-mode window where you edit the code)? I usually have to switch to the REPL, and type ",i package-name" which seems redundant since the code buffer already knows what the current package is. 02:55:14 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:55:25 -!- Alice_I_W [i=stepnem@server1.bshellz.net] has quit [K-lined] 02:55:28 to parse html cleanly, i think i am supposed to use closure-html:parse then somehow pass the result of that to cxml's sax? I am confused. 02:56:08 can cxml parse nasty html all on its own or do i need to use closure-html? 02:56:50 cxml is not for parsing nasty html. 02:56:50 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:56:59 closure-html is for parsing nasty html. 02:57:56 -!- timchen119 is now known as nasloc__ 02:58:05 but the result of (chtml:parse (load-file) (make-(lhtml|pt)-builder)) is equally nasty 02:59:01 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:59:06 lhtml leaves empty strings in the text, and pt is just plain cryptic, i have to walk down the node family tree, turning left and right, just to fine the element i am interested in. 02:59:29 i think i am gonna sick a code-walker with remove-if on lhtmls 03:00:14 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:01:38 oh 03:01:49 this hopeless experiment does seem to work 03:01:52 (parse (serialize-lhtml (parse (load-file) (make-lhtml-builder)) (make-string-sink)) (make-lhtml-builder)) 03:02:27 html parsing can't be worse than sipping backwash 03:05:19 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:05:19 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:05:44 ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 03:08:01 fusss: cxml works with arbitrary sinks and sources, closure-html gives you an additional source class. 03:09:29 pkhuong: i don't know any xml, all i am trying to get is something that resembles cl-who code as closely as possible. if i can setup a few callbacks everytime an html element type is parse, great! if not, i will just walk the node tree and get them myself .. 03:09:55 i am looking at the HAX package and seeing how this fits in with chtml 03:12:29 fusss: cxml-stp works well if you want a dom-style interface. 03:12:46 -!- marioxcc [n=user@201.132.48.133] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:14:14 -!- Adlai is now known as crickets 03:14:21 -!- crickets is now known as Adlai 03:14:43 ok i get it 03:14:55 these things are interchangeable 03:15:09 PARSE> (chmtl:parse (load-file) (cxml-dom:make-dom-builder)) 03:15:12 # 03:15:42 i deliberately mixed chtml and cxml functionality to see what error i get but it somehow worked 03:16:23 fusss: of course. It's just a cxml source class. That's pretty much the point of SAX-style interfaces. 03:16:24 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:18:23 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-76-113.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:18:33 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-76-113.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:20:39 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 03:20:42 does "handler" == "builder"? 03:20:45 "To serialize a DOM document, use a SAX serialization sink as the argument to dom:map-document, which generates SAX events for the DOM tree. " 03:22:56 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:23:04 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 03:23:05 fusss: a handler is anything that receives SAX events as input. 03:23:28 i think i have strayed too far, pkhuong. i am doing xml, just html. 03:23:42 stupider tools can get the job done at the moment 03:24:12 i am not ready for the w3c/xml rabbit hole 03:24:13 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:24:26 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 03:24:52 it's not hard... source -- SAX -> (transducer -- SAX ->)* sink 03:24:53 vilson [n=vilson@189-11-145-61.jvece702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 03:25:54 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 03:25:54 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:26:16 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:26:23 ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 03:27:01 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:10 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:28:28 -!- vilson [n=vilson@189-11-145-61.jvece702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Client Quit] 03:31:25 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:33:17 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:33:33 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:37:18 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:39:53 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:44 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:46:56 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:47:29 ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 03:48:17 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:48:22 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:48:27 chavo_ [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:51 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit ["*poof*"] 03:52:07 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@64.254.167.142] has joined #lisp 03:52:21 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@12.108.45.8] has joined #lisp 03:53:46 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:56:55 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:58:24 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:58:58 roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 04:02:18 envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 04:07:14 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:07:52 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:11:21 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:11:31 ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:11:46 hi i need some help with macroexpand-all, i dont have it in sbcl, i must install something? 04:12:17 <_3b> (require 'sb-cltl2) ? 04:12:54 ok thanks, i put it in google but dont get nothing clear 04:13:44 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:15:37 -!- tvaalen [n=tvaal@terminal.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:15:56 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:16:06 tvaalen [n=tvaal@209.9.227.203] has joined #lisp 04:17:12 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@12.108.45.8] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:17:54 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:21:48 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.221.109] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 04:25:14 -!- ace4016 [n=dante401@cpe-76-168-82-150.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["nap"] 04:27:31 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:28:34 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 04:29:32 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:31:12 Good morning! 04:31:29 G0SUB_ [n=ghoseb@117.195.102.188] has joined #lisp 04:31:48 Is GIThub a reasonable place for hosting an open-source Lisp project? 04:31:57 *_3b* uses it 04:32:17 <_3b> if nothing else, i like that it lets you see new projects in a particular language 04:32:54 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:07 Thanks! 04:35:38 beach: lots of lispers on github :) 04:35:38 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:35:40 the clojure people like it, too, so you can rain on their parade :-) 04:36:07 ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:36:21 <_3b> cl people like it more, if the language rankings are accurate, 19th for cl, 21 for clojure :) 04:36:28 beach: keep in mind, they just had a server move. It's been a little buggy/laggy the past couple of days :( 04:36:39 <_3b> heh, scheme is #20 04:37:12 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 04:37:28 Is there any interesting literature that people know of about converting inline lisp code into functions automatically? 04:37:37 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:37:39 (Functions as opposed to closures). 04:37:52 <_3b> elisp is probably pretty close to beating cl,scheme and clojure together at #13 though 04:38:00 dysinger [n=tim@75.85.135.191] has joined #lisp 04:39:01 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:40:45 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:03 I just installed SBCL and would like to use it with SLIME. Anyone have any ideas regarding why when I start SLIME I get the SBCL * prompt instead of the usual SLIME CL-USER prompt? 04:43:26 emacsphan: (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) 04:43:40 in your .emacs. 04:43:49 then try again. 04:43:50 ok I will try that 04:43:52 thanks 04:44:04 -!- arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:44:28 one of these days, slime devs will decide to at -least- provide slime-repl by default >:( 04:44:58 brb 04:45:15 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:45:52 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:54 <_3b> kind of defeat the purpose of moving it to a contrib, wouldn't it? 04:46:07 that worked, thanks! hack on 04:46:36 _3b: Moving something so basic to a contrib kind of defeats the purpose of trying to get anyone to bother using your software, don't it? 04:46:38 sykopomp: OK, thanks. Does this mean that people are moving away from common-lisp.net? 04:47:15 beach: Not necessarily. It just means that github is quick and easy to set up and that there's several lispers using it :) 04:47:33 sykopomp: OK, Thanks! 04:47:37 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:48:14 <_3b> yeah, their features don't overlap 100%, so you might prefer one or the other 04:49:15 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 04:50:35 Using hunchentoot I get condition "Starting a select without a timeout while interrupts are disabled." 04:50:44 what's wrong ? 04:53:54 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:54:33 _3b: Well, it is not for me, but for some students working on a Sudoku game just in order to learn Lisp. I'll move then to cl.net once they start working on something more serious. 04:55:31 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 04:55:37 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:56:46 InvisibleTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 04:56:47 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:57:16 ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:57:36 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:57:52 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jlzoofbxzjbeousj] has joined #lisp 04:58:28 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:03:37 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:03:55 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:09:07 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:10:15 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:12:56 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:20:57 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.41] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:21:19 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:21:30 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:21:48 ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:29:01 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:29:01 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:29:27 ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:31:27 notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has joined #lisp 05:32:15 what features do I have to live without if I am using a prolog implementation inside of lisp .. what are the good ones out there? 05:32:22 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:32:36 I mean what are the good prologs inside lisp? 05:33:02 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 05:34:45 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:35:07 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:35:35 c|mell [n=cmell@95.56.241.196] has joined #lisp 05:35:35 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:35:59 ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:37:05 notsonerdysunny: Allegro has a prolog. I don't know if it lives outside of allegrocache. There's also a prolog in PAIP. 05:37:49 sykopomp how would these prologs compare to say swi-prolog? 05:38:32 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:39:43 I mean are these full-featured prologs? 05:40:03 minion: cliki prolog 05:40:04 you speak nonsense 05:40:07 cliki prolog 05:40:14 *sykopomp* sighs 05:40:29 notsonerdysunny: http://www.cliki.net/Prolog 05:40:49 thx sykopomp .. I will look at it.. 05:40:59 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.236.91] has joined #lisp 05:42:32 amazing. cl-store persists Lisp objects across implementations and platforms. 05:42:35 perfeto! 05:42:48 fusss: seriously?! :-o 05:42:54 sick 05:43:04 minion: tell me about cl-store 05:43:05 Adlai: direct your attention towards cl-store: cl-store is an asdf-installable portable library for serializing and deserializing Common Lisp objects to and from streams. http://www.cliki.net/cl-store 05:43:26 Adlai: cl-store is pretty awesome. It's like python's pickler. 05:43:29 and it has just _two_ functions (more if you want them, but two are all you need) 05:43:43 (in fact, there's an example there about unpickling a pickle with cl-store or somesuch) 05:43:51 (in the cl-store docs) 05:44:05 STORE and RESTORE. does it get _any_ easier? 05:44:20 cl-store:dwim? 05:45:57 -!- alexshendi [n=chatzill@dslb-188-098-111-245.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 05:48:00 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:48:56 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:50:20 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 05:54:13 Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has joined #lisp 05:56:48 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:59:12 -!- male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 05:59:27 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:59:34 male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:34 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:01:06 ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:01:43 aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has joined #lisp 06:07:34 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit ["off"] 06:08:33 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.221.109] has joined #lisp 06:13:40 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:16:13 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 06:17:00 zpe [i=c74ca14e@gateway/web/freenode/x-nbemjbbguptcnroj] has joined #lisp 06:17:00 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp123.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:17:24 -!- zpe [i=c74ca14e@gateway/web/freenode/x-nbemjbbguptcnroj] has quit [Client Quit] 06:18:11 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:22:52 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:23:38 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:28:58 borism [n=boris@195.50.205.198] has joined #lisp 06:29:07 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:31:25 freiksenet [n=freiksen@193.166.13.253] has joined #lisp 06:31:26 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:31:50 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:42:34 -!- skeptomai|away [n=nnncb@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Getting off stoned server - dircproxy 1.2.0"] 06:42:42 skeptomai|away [n=nnnncb@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:10 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:45:40 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:49:39 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:50:54 hello 06:52:47 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:55:53 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:56:27 good morning 06:57:52 reaver_ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:02:08 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@95.56.241.196] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:03:55 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:04:21 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:04:55 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:06:13 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:07:01 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:08:35 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:09:38 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:10:03 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:10:33 is there a way to pattern-match a list with a LOOP clause? if I have n assoc of cons pairs, '((a . b)); i want to do (loop for (key . val) in assoc-pairs ..) 07:10:43 i have seen something like that in code before 07:10:44 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 07:11:02 fusss: you can do that, yes 07:12:44 if it's more like a plist, you can do (loop for (key val) on my-plist by #'cddr ...) 07:13:13 by is what i wanted 07:13:51 <_3b> BY just changes how it iterates, you shouldn't need that for an alist 07:13:53 fusss: Probably you want to call that 'destructuring'. 07:14:04 Zhivago: yes 07:14:10 and the problem is clisp; it works in sbcl 07:14:47 WARNING: Starting a select without a timeout while interrupts are disabled. 07:14:57 didn't just someone have that exact bug earlier? 07:15:10 fusss: yup. 07:16:05 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:17:59 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:18:29 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:18:54 ASau [n=user@77.246.231.148] has joined #lisp 07:20:19 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483EEDF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:20:26 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483EEDF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:06 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 07:21:09 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:22:50 vu3rdd [n=user@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 07:23:06 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:24:37 morphling [n=stefan@89.14.136.95] has joined #lisp 07:24:42 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 07:27:42 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@193.166.13.253] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:29:15 -!- InvisibleTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 07:29:43 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-35-142.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:32:58 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:33:13 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:33:25 Alice_I_W [i=stepnem@server1.bshellz.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:48 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 07:39:56 Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has joined #lisp 07:41:07 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:44:01 KingNato [n=patno@195.149.143.194] has joined #lisp 07:45:08 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:45:24 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:46:01 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 07:46:54 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:48:28 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-76-113.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:49:12 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-20-184.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:53:50 -!- ski [n=slj@c-c110e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:55:36 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:56:23 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:58:44 -!- male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:59:05 male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:32 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-134.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:00:46 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 08:03:57 Harag [n=phil@41.208.196.192] has joined #lisp 08:04:28 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-50-22.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:05:38 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:10:23 Just a heads up for those of you interested in cusp gorsal made some changes and did some bug fixes that has made a big differnce in the usability of cusp with eclipse 3.5 on linux(well ubuntu at least). You can now successfully point cusp to the lisp of your choice with parameters. For instance I can now specify the --core parameter for my sbcl etc. 08:12:09 that code changes can be found on http://groups.google.com/group/cusp-development/files ...just grab the latest. 08:14:49 amaron [n=amaron@93.86.161.198] has joined #lisp 08:21:21 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:25:27 jsnell: Does stopping slime-sprof mean that the counters are reset? 08:26:32 -!- dysinger [n=tim@75.85.135.191] has quit [] 08:26:41 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-25-244.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:26:59 freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 08:27:20 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:27:32 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 08:30:18 -!- reaver_ is now known as register 08:30:53 -!- register is now known as Guest2238 08:30:58 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 08:31:30 sprof reports that some portion is spent in SB-VM::ALLOC-SIGNED-BIGNUM-IN-EAX 08:31:45 how can I find out what code exactly bignums? 08:32:32 Is there some entry function I could insert a (break) in? 08:33:29 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:33:41 -!- salva [n=salva@91.117.11.105] has quit [] 08:35:14 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 08:38:10 ski [n=slj@c-c110e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:40:36 serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06ea47.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:39 good morning 08:43:07 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.156.76.246] has joined #lisp 08:49:04 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 08:49:29 hugod_ [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442868.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 08:53:33 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 08:54:40 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229081180.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:56:10 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:56:37 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.221.109] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 08:56:47 -!- spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:57:30 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441179.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:57:31 -!- hugod_ is now known as hugod 08:58:51 tcr: can't you wander up the stack trace from alloc-signed-bignum-in-eax to find out the callers? 08:58:59 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:00:20 Is that a function? M-. fails on it 09:00:33 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:06 it's not really a function 09:01:27 nevertheless, sb-sprof reports not only routines but also their callers 09:01:40 so you should be able to find the bit in your code that is responsible for bignum allocation 09:02:01 Ah right I know the caller, but I don't see where that should cons up a bignum 09:02:48 drafael [n=tapio@118.90.133.41] has joined #lisp 09:02:51 (- x y) where x and y are (integer 0 most-positive-fixnum) should not do it, or am I stupid? 09:03:07 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 09:03:31 -!- G0SUB_ is now known as G0SUB 09:05:29 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 09:06:27 ruepel0r [n=rue@77-21-138-135-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:06:36 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@77-21-138-135-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:07:11 -!- Harag [n=phil@41.208.196.192] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:11:42 plan9 [n=stian@arachnotron.sletner.com] has joined #lisp 09:12:33 tcr, what do you think about xcvb? 09:13:28 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:13:33 (If you have time to discuss that now..) 09:14:20 -!- ski [n=slj@c-c110e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:15:03 deepfire: I haven't looked at it. You should ask attila he did. 09:16:34 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@88.73.228.54] has joined #lisp 09:17:08 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:18:05 jsnell: That disassembly feature of sprof is so ultra damn cool. 09:18:10 you really do rock 09:19:49 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 09:21:05 (I found the call to alloc-signed-bignum-..., but it's not in the caller that sprof reported but in another function that is called by alleged caller) 09:22:35 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:23:11 Is there a way to know the version of ASDF in SBCL, without looking up the changelog? 09:25:09 Hmm, even looking up the changelog doesn't help much. 09:25:34 And asdf:*asdf-revision* => nil. 09:25:58 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-235.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 09:26:45 I have a ; B408: L339: 6BC104 IMUL EAX, ECX, 4 even though I do not have any multiplication in my code. I guess that's due to computing some array index? 09:27:31 that's the thing that may overflow. 09:28:03 -!- aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:28:54 it's difficult without seeing your code to know what else it might be 09:29:16 it's slightly odd that it's not a shift 09:30:42 ol3`` [n=user@82.113.121.144] has joined #lisp 09:31:47 Ah well I gotta go. More investigation this evening :) 09:35:03 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-36.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 09:37:13 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:37:26 -!- lukjad007 is now known as WikiPirate 09:39:02 -!- WikiPirate is now known as lukjad007 09:41:00 -!- notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:41:25 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@dyndsl-095-033-094-048.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #lisp 09:45:19 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:12 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:48:03 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-203.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:48:06 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 09:48:25 -!- ol3` [n=user@82.113.121.144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:51:16 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:52:19 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 09:55:32 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 09:55:59 mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6D846.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:57 ski [n=slj@c-c110e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:58:06 -!- Guest2238 [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:00:04 reaver_ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 10:01:14 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:09:29 vu3rdd` [n=user@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 10:10:23 kuwabara1 [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:23 -!- kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:12:09 *Xof* uses generic sequences 10:12:12 my god they're cool 10:14:05 esden [n=esdentem@repl.esden.net] has joined #lisp 10:17:48 -!- vu3rdd [n=user@164.164.250.10] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:19:22 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:19:49 Is there any guarantee about runtime typechecking in struct accessors? 10:20:09 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:20:54 On CCL, studying the disassembly of a struct accessor reveals that it checks whether the argument is a struct, but then happily takes (struct-ref x 1) regardless of what struct it is. 10:21:14 is this specified/allowed in the standard? 10:21:28 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:22:03 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:23:00 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:23:25 "It is implementation-dependent whether the type is checked when initializing a slot or when assigning to it." 10:23:53 ..search for the string ":type type" on the defstruct clhs page 10:24:27 lnostdal: aren't they talking about the type of the slot there, rather than the type of the struct? 10:24:46 piso: that's correct 10:24:51 lnostdal: I'm talking about the type of the struct 10:24:58 ok, i thought you meant the slot 10:26:04 no... there are two struct types, and because of some error, an accessor of one type was called on an instance of the other. Instead of choking there, it happily gave one of the slots and the bug didn't show up right away. 10:26:11 is there an advantage to using structs instead of classes? 10:26:34 speed 10:26:38 Guthur: efficiency 10:26:53 structures can be represented as vectors 10:27:00 -!- mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6D846.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 10:27:04 ol3``` [n=user@82.113.121.144] has joined #lisp 10:27:12 stassats ah ok, is that implementation dependant? 10:27:15 no 10:27:18 Guthur: nope, it's portable 10:27:29 (defstruct (example (:type vector)) foo bar baz) 10:27:30 you request that specifically 10:28:06 adlai stassats, great, the reason i asked was because of all the discussion regarding structs recently 10:28:38 i'd like not having separate structures and classes interfaces 10:28:54 Guthur: oh, another reason to use structs is if you want to use sb-ext:compare-and-swap 10:29:08 (ie, for writing lock-free data structures) 10:29:26 stassats, ya if there was no real difference i was going to avoid structs 10:29:41 adlai, cheers 10:29:53 *Guthur* goes to check sb-ext:compare-and-swap... 10:30:07 dalkvist [n=cairdaza@213.226.77.202] has joined #lisp 10:30:34 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.156.76.246] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:30:41 *Adlai* goes to wrap his structure accessors with runtime typechecking 10:31:28 ah but sb-ext:compare-and-swap is implementation dependant right, SBCL 10:31:55 Guthur: yes, SBCL's implementation-dependant packages are (usually? always?) prefixed with SB 10:31:56 i think CCL has CAS also 10:32:13 lnostdal: not quite. I actually wrote a version that works for conses and simple vectors, but it seems to have a bug. 10:32:33 also, sbcl's structure accessors check the type of the struct, unless you've compiled at high-speed low-safety 10:33:00 Xof: is that a requirement in the spec though? 10:33:03 no 10:33:17 not as far as I know. (Almost no typechecking is a requirement) 10:33:48 can you get ccl to return garbage with (defstruct foo a) (defstruct bar) (foo-a (make-bar))? 10:34:05 Xof sb-ext:compare-and-swap? there was a bug with sb-ext:compare-and-swap up until 1.0.10 regarding type 10:34:23 Xof: yes, that's what happened just now. 10:34:51 Guthur: I have no idea what you're trying to say 10:35:14 yeah, ccl lets you use one type's readers and writers with objects of another structure type if both type have enough slots 10:35:26 Xof i thought you said there was no type checking with sb-ext:compare-and-swap 10:35:26 both types 10:35:36 "foo-a" got called on a "bar", because of an error in my code, and the error only became evident at a later stage. Luckily I'm still testing small parts, so I could track it down easily. 10:36:07 Adlai: I asked a more specific question: foo-a on a bar in my example above isn't just a wrong slot access, it's reading memory that could be anything 10:36:11 Xof and i said there was bug in sb-ext:compare-and-swap regarding type which made it non-atomic, which would imply that type-checking was very important 10:36:20 I haven't mentioned compare-and-swap 10:36:23 ccl initializes slots to nil by default 10:36:33 Xof no problem cross wires then 10:36:33 (or seems to, at least) 10:36:47 piso: but in my case there is no slot! 10:36:53 piso: alright, I that's reasonable 10:36:57 *I guess 10:37:19 (I think a nil initialization by default is standard) 10:37:33 Xof: no, it's not. The standard says "consequences undefined" for that. 10:37:44 CCL picks a sane default, though. 10:37:53 Xof: no, in your case ccl signals an error 10:38:07 Adlai: oh, quite right. That's me learnt 10:39:03 Xof: sorry, I looked at your example again; I misread it earlier. In my case, both structs were already initialized, and had enough slots. 10:40:08 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:46 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:42:52 *piso* realizes that abcl behaves like ccl in those defstruct examples 10:43:27 ace4016 [n=dante401@cpe-76-168-82-150.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:43:37 rudi [n=rudi@129.27.202.101] has joined #lisp 10:44:23 -!- ol3`` [n=user@82.113.121.144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:44:44 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-200-220.net.novis.pt] has quit [No route to host] 10:44:58 TR2N [i=email@89-180-200-220.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 10:45:03 piso: I'm not sure that's a bad thing, although I think it should be possible to get the runtime typechecking by wrapping the defstruct with safer optimization settings 10:45:11 Adlai: yeah 10:47:53 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:48:11 good, xcl does check structure types at safety 3 10:51:14 actually, xcl checks structure types in compiled code at safety >= 1 10:51:35 but xcl's interpreter never checks structure types 10:52:25 piso: so does everything except clisp, I think 10:52:35 oh, wait, which defstruct examples? 10:52:53 Adlai's example(s) 10:52:55 sorry, I've got in my brain the cll discussion about which lexical environment is used for defstruct slot init forms 10:53:03 no, not that 10:53:59 Adlai, oh, CCL does _not_ have CAS? .. i haven't got the compiler here atm. 10:54:04 Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483CD86.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:57:18 i can only find reference to SBCL CAS which is telling, 10:57:37 I'm not doing much threading these days though 10:58:38 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:58:48 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:59:34 -!- vu3rdd` [n=user@164.164.250.10] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:01:30 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [] 11:01:49 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 11:03:46 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 11:06:24 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:06:28 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 11:07:58 -!- KingNato [n=patno@195.149.143.194] has quit [] 11:09:37 -!- Dodek [n=dodek@sandbox.dbc.wroc.pl] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 11:09:54 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:10:08 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 11:10:22 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483EEDF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:13:13 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:14:53 lnostdal: CCL lets you write functions (which you can call like normal functions) in a DSL that compiles to native machine code, so I tried translating sb-ext:cas to CCL. 11:15:43 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 11:15:46 It seemed to work, but when I "stress tested" it with a few threads, occasionally, the place would get filled with garbage. I suspect that my first ever assembly code has some bugs... 11:15:59 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:18:34 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 11:19:29 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:26:52 -!- ace4016 [n=dante401@cpe-76-168-82-150.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:31:28 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-170.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 11:31:36 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 11:32:07 ok 11:33:15 HG` [n=HG@xdslaj108.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:42:07 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jlzoofbxzjbeousj] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:43:15 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:43:19 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 11:45:05 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 11:46:02 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:54 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:56:00 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 12:00:01 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:00:19 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:43 -!- morphling [n=stefan@89.14.136.95] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:00:57 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:43 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:01:43 hi Fare 12:02:02 morphling [n=stefan@89.14.136.95] has joined #lisp 12:02:23 *aerique* just became a level 2 CL code optimiser 12:02:27 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit ["ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"] 12:02:44 hi 12:03:08 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 12:04:02 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@dyndsl-095-033-094-048.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:04:17 when you become "clear" you are termed an Operating Lambdan 12:04:39 ,(list) 12:04:44 still ways to go 12:05:07 doubt i've got the funds to get that far 12:05:08 hello, does (coerce (vector 1 2 3) 'list) return a fresh list? 12:06:08 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 12:06:23 Xach: Lispology would be a very strange religion. 12:06:33 antifuchs: "would be"? 12:06:46 hah 12:07:02 ol3```: yes 12:07:05 Xach: I suspect everyone with an X in their nick is an antagonist (only revealed to executive-level lispers) 12:07:30 when the folks at scientology shiver in fright at the thought of a more tightly knit cult with a more esoteric god its lispology they are worried about 12:07:48 .msg antifuxhs lets recruit pkhuong! 12:07:51 Please spell "it's" properly. 12:07:52 ooops 12:08:23 arc break! 12:08:33 o_O 12:09:02 piso: thx 12:09:03 yes i made it without being thwacked about its :D 12:09:17 minion: thwap Dawgmatix 12:09:18 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 12:09:18 *cmm* goes to ask Hugh Jackman some lisp questions 12:09:25 (what! who removed that?) 12:09:35 the mutiny is complete 12:09:40 *p_l* only once tried to scare Edinburgh scientology branch shitless one time... and here it's full of lispology ;-) 12:12:45 given 2 standard-class objects(not instances of them), how can one find if one is the superclass of the other? Is there any portable(using only CL) way of doing it besides instantiating objects from them and using typep ? 12:13:16 A class has a corresponding type. You can use subtypep. 12:13:28 ah 12:16:19 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:17:54 thanks, seems to work just fine. 12:22:41 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 12:22:55 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [] 12:25:48 Harag [n=phil@196.2.112.44] has joined #lisp 12:26:32 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.160.123] has joined #lisp 12:26:51 has any body tried to use acceptor-names in hunchentoot define-easy-handler? 12:30:45 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:31:01 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:48 usually when i stumble across a blog post about common lisp, it's "lisp is great, here's how i will fix it". so http://raptros.wordpress.com/2009/10/14/awesome-object-oriented-system/ is a nice change of pace. 12:33:07 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:34:17 -!- drafael [n=tapio@118.90.133.41] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:34:25 could use some paragraphs 12:34:54 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:35:48 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:44:54 ... Lists are the most basic data type in lisp? 12:45:11 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:46:00 I say fixnums are. 12:46:13 Yeah, I was thinking BIT, myself. 12:46:24 Something in that direction, at least. 12:46:38 Not symbols? :) 12:46:47 No, symbols are fairly well overloaded. 12:46:53 -!- borism [n=boris@195.50.205.198] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:47:04 Only in CL. 12:47:28 I figure null is the most basic type 12:47:44 -!- xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:47:45 Symbols provide named object identity and value storage, which is sufficiently complex to not be basic. 12:48:03 dlowe: If you want to go that route, what about NIL instead? 12:48:13 That's CL for you -- grotesquely bloated. 12:48:20 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:48:22 nyef: it's rare that you actually do anything with the NIL type 12:48:36 Zhivago: Now tell me that scheme symbols don't provide named object identity and value storage? 12:48:38 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:42 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442868.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 12:48:55 nyef: They don't. 12:49:16 They're just identities. 12:49:21 with syntax-case, they provide less and less 12:49:46 Zhivago: Ah, right, and DEFINE doesn't associate a value with one? 12:50:05 That's not the symbol's problem. 12:50:32 Still, even -named- identity is complex enough. 12:50:34 the problem with Scheme is often that things are no one's problem indeed 12:50:56 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:51:15 Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has joined #lisp 12:51:45 nyef: so do you want to add generalized PCLSRing to SBCL? 12:52:48 Fare: I want to understand what's involved first. Then, maybe, an impact assessment before deciding if it's worth trying to add. 12:52:53 I was wondering how the partial order on (sets of) locks was to be generalized (or not) into a partial order of stable point "heights" 12:53:55 i.e. locks are "hands off by default", and safe-points are "hands on by default" (for resources under control of a single-thread). 12:54:18 -!- Harag [n=phil@196.2.112.44] has left #lisp 12:55:43 lichtblau, two new ediware wnpp projects in http://viridian-project.de/~sky/clbuild.public/ 12:56:05 knobo [n=user@88.87.57.60] has joined #lisp 12:56:38 and at any moment you may be interested in a stability over a given set of criteria, which involves grabbing all the locks and doing all the PCLSRing for all the involved locks&threads (and grabbing the "dominating" locks) while *other* locks and threads can continue their way 12:57:46 lpolzer: thanks, pulled. Will push later after re-running dependencies. 12:57:58 thank you! 12:58:03 hmm... how many systems use PCLSR nowadays? 12:58:34 p_l: As a general mechanism, or for specific invariants? 12:58:38 Madsy^ [n=Madsy@ti0207a340-0658.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 12:59:04 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:59:44 nyef: as more general case, whether it's implemented by the compiler itself or OS 13:00:00 it always reminds me of ITS :) 13:00:12 LiamH [n=none@132.250.248.92] has joined #lisp 13:00:14 Yeah, but ITS only did it for kernel calls, didn't it? 13:00:25 borism [n=boris@195.50.205.198] has joined #lisp 13:00:28 What is the proper way to import all symbols related to a class from another package? I wrote a function which just imports all classes (well, symbols naming the classes) which are derived from a certain class, but I'm not sure if that is enough (I don't think accessors / slotnames are imported(?) - do I even need to import slotnames?). I suppose I could just manually import the accessors I need, since I only care about those used by the base class. 13:00:32 I think you'll find that most Lisps do it for GC invariants. 13:00:38 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:01:33 ljames: Even the idea of importing -all- symbols related to a class is frightening. Don't you have a defined public interface? 13:01:36 nyef: well, ITS was programmed mostly in assembler, so all internal calls were supported by PCLSR, the rest depended on how you wrote your code 13:01:53 nyef: I wish there was a public interface, but it seems they decided not to export anything from the package. 13:02:19 ljames: Dare I ask which "they"? 13:02:24 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:02:32 I'm using ia-x86 from movitz as a disassembler 13:02:37 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:02:47 and all instruction names are part of the ia-x86-instr package 13:02:52 none are exported 13:03:09 why is (simple-vector-p (make-array 0 :element-type nil)) => nil? 13:03:23 it's a bit annoying having to type ia-x86-instr::instruction-name each time i need to refer to one 13:03:35 knobo: a simple vector must be able to hold objects of any type 13:03:37 ljames: And you're printing them with format ~S instead of format ~A, or you're... Ah, right, source references. 13:03:46 knobo: that is, an :element-type of t 13:03:58 Levenson1 [n=Levenson@92.46.80.128] has joined #lisp 13:04:03 knobo: Why are you creating such strings anyway? 13:04:03 nyef: not printing them, I want to pattern match over them, and do more complex things. 13:04:35 ljames: So you're disassembling to sexps? 13:04:55 ia-x86 disassembles to objects (instances of classes) 13:05:09 they also have a disassembler which disassembles to sexp's 13:05:10 I was asking for any corner cases in lisp yesterday, and then I realize that there is quite a lot about arrays i don't know or understand. 13:05:29 but i found it doesn't support a lot of instructions, so I decided not to use it 13:05:31 knobo: Note that not all lisp systems support making that sort of string. 13:05:40 that disassembler uses keywords for instruction names to avoid this problem 13:05:51 alas this one doesn't 13:06:03 ljames: You might find it easier to just write your own disassembler. Even accounting for the disaster which is the encoding, it might be easier. 13:06:38 well, I'll consider that, I'm trying to write my code in a portable manner, so I could switch to another disassembler engine 13:07:16 *nyef* has been thinking about going over the SBCL x86oid instruction definitions with a few changes in mind... Mainly changing how segment prefixes are handled. 13:09:56 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has joined #lisp 13:10:12 p_l: ALL systems use PCLSRing for things like GC 13:10:19 -!- Madsy [n=Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:12:04 ljames, you can use a loop to generate a list of symbols that you then use to generate a proper defpackage form (and/or use an import statement) 13:12:16 (hacking defpackage is cleaner, I think) 13:13:02 konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has joined #lisp 13:14:18 ah 13:14:33 jleija [n=jleija@24.214.122.46] has joined #lisp 13:14:40 Hrm. "(# 17592163478298 1)". I guess MISC.293 (bug 309099) still lives... 13:14:42 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-134.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:15:15 you can use (defpackage my-package (:import-from ia-x86-instr foo ...) (:export foo ...)) and then :use my-package 13:15:26 I basically just did a do-symbols on the package, which tried to locate all classes which are subtypes of another class, and if so, import the symbols into the current package, except I have no idea if this would import the accessors too. 13:15:44 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:15:50 ljames: packages are only about the names. if you don't import the accessor name, you can't access it without the prefix. 13:16:22 I suppose I'll just import the accessors accordingly, since I only need those from the base class. 13:16:23 That said, why would there be more than a handful of accessor names, and why wouldn't they at least be exported somewhere? 13:18:18 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:18:48 yes, there's not that many of them, however most are not exported. I'm not sure why was it thought to be a good idea not to export the accessors, since without that you can't really use the data from the disassembler. 13:18:58 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 13:19:36 I suspect that it's mostly a matter of there not being any actual users yet. 13:23:30 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Client Quit] 13:24:32 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 13:24:53 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:25:56 Fare: really? all? 13:26:01 (for PCLSR) 13:26:46 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 13:28:00 pkhuong: Yes, because: Either they roll-back, roll-forward, or are interruptable at any point and the GC can figure out what to do from there. 13:29:08 If there are no invariants that need to be maintained, the system is automatically PCLSRed to that set of invariants. 13:32:04 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 13:34:11 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 13:36:31 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:37:28 ... Is reg_ALLOC always defined on non-gencgc targets? 13:37:56 (There is some suggestion in the code in src/runtime/save.c that this is the case.) 13:38:26 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:38:55 ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.30] has joined #lisp 13:39:10 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has joined #lisp 13:39:19 pkhuong, for some view of PCLSRing, probably -- and if they are multithreaded, certainly. 13:39:29 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:40:48 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:01 ljames, I suggest writing a loop to get the list of everything, sort it, then prune it by hand 13:41:32 maybe first prune to remove anything that's not defined as function, class or variable 13:41:45 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:43:36 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:44:04 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:45:22 ... Ugh. The comments in src/runtime/gencgc-internal.h for the region_start_offset slot of struct page say that it is an offset from the start of the page to the start of the containing alloc_region. It's an unsigned long. From this I must conclude that either allocation regions grow downwards or the comment is wrong. 13:47:10 or that it's a number you subtract from the start of the page to get the start of the alloc region, rather than something you add? 13:47:18 Good afternoon! 13:47:22 hi luis 13:47:39 -!- reaver_ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:47:46 Why is (make-array 1 :element-type 'number :initial-element #\a) possible but not (make-array 1 :element-type nil :initial-element nil) ? 13:47:52 jsnell: If you subtract rather than add, then the comment is misleading at best. 13:48:06 knobo: because NIL is the type that includes nothing. 13:48:09 (It would be the offset from the start of the containing region to the start of the page.) 13:48:17 knobo: NULL is the type that contains NIL 13:48:17 knobo: the type of NIL is NULL 13:48:21 because the expressed element type is not the same as the upgraded array element type 13:48:39 bah, who cares about a few signs being the wrong way around 13:48:42 #\a is not a number, but #\a can be stored in arrays which can store all possible numbers 13:48:49 it'll average out 13:49:04 nil is not a nil, and cannot be stored in an array which can store all possible nils 13:49:39 "element-type indicates the type of the elements intended to be stored in the new-array. The new-array can actually store any objects of the type which results from upgrading element-type; see Section 15.1.2.1 (Array Upgrading). " 13:49:57 mind you, in your case, both forms invoke undefined behaviour 13:50:12 (see the paragraph after the one I quoted in CLHS make-array 13:50:30 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.160.123] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:50:41 reaver_ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 13:53:08 Guthur [i=c13dbf2e@gateway/web/freenode/x-wubffecgsexeauvl] has joined #lisp 13:55:16 Fare: Is https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/310175 ("backtracing can construct bogus objects") a failure of PCLSRing with respect to backtrace heap/stack invariants? 13:55:52 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has quit ["Valete!"] 13:58:34 nyef, cursorily looks like so 13:58:39 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:58:49 Okay, that's what I thought. 13:59:46 faux [n=user@82.182.78.98] has joined #lisp 13:59:56 it's also a case where the invariants themselves are kind of fuzzy -- which makes it harder to respect them 14:00:11 "fuzzy"? 14:00:24 You mean not well defined, or something else? 14:00:30 not well defined 14:00:59 *luis* is having Lisp training. 14:01:01 gets even more interesting if some signals are involved and you didn't PCLSR 14:01:12 luis: who's training you? 14:01:19 or are you training them? 14:01:23 Fare: some guy. 14:01:38 is that CL? 14:01:39 He's teaching us about closures right now. 14:01:45 CL, yes. 14:01:48 ECL? 14:02:02 how many of "us" are there? 14:02:29 Fare: I probably shouldn't disclose that, not sure. 14:02:35 late at a meeting... back in a few 14:02:39 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:02:45 *luis* is new to the industry :) 14:02:47 What would be an appropriate term for a nested function that was forbidden from being a closure? 14:02:56 heh 14:03:43 Yeah, I think backtrace is one of those things where you need to be able to PCLSR the state non-destructively from any instruction boundary that is GC-invariant-consistent (that is, there is an ordering dependency on GC invariant PCLSRing). 14:04:02 mm ecl 14:05:56 Is there any reason why genesis shouldn't dump a gencgc page table on gencgc targets? 14:07:33 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:07:33 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A12DD.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:07:55 Wow, I had a function that was taking ~60-secs to execute, I put in a few declarations and it's down to 35. 14:09:10 Setting (speed 2) hasn't helped, but it has provided a bunch of notes. 14:09:45 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 14:10:12 the notes are helpful 14:11:15 Yeah, I'm just not sure it's worth my time at this point to resolve all of them. 14:11:57 it can be quite relaxing to spend 3 hours to save 25 seconds of runtime 14:12:26 I think I'll set (speed 1) and shift to making the routine parallel. This is processing of a large amount of data and is something that is trivial to make parallel. 14:13:46 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:14:01 As it stands now, if I did save 25 more seconds in this routine for 3 hours, that would be worth it. I'm looking at process times on full sets of data on the order of days. It needs to be parallel, but each little calculation needs to be fast as well. 14:14:34 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:16:34 does do variables create a new lexical binding? i'm assuming so 14:17:15 or special 14:20:39 Astro [n=astro@2001:8d8:81:5c8:219:dbff:fe64:81a7] has joined #lisp 14:20:50 -!- Astro [n=astro@2001:8d8:81:5c8:219:dbff:fe64:81a7] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:21:35 stassats was that for me? 14:21:38 yes 14:22:00 it creates either new special, or new lexical bindings 14:24:13 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 14:28:02 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:30:27 stassats ok cheers 14:31:48 zeroish [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 14:33:09 -!- ineiros [n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit ["leaving"] 14:33:17 milanj [n=milan@77.46.202.106] has joined #lisp 14:33:24 ineiros [n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 14:33:45 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 14:43:22 Guthur: lexical by default without a declaration 14:44:12 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 14:45:48 vsync ya i just read about how dynamic variables will always be dynamic even with let, i did not know that 14:46:13 I was wanting to remember the do variable outside the loop. i just returned it in the end 14:48:44 you can make new dynamic variables, with local special declaration 14:48:48 ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:50:58 stassats, i did not know that either, they always seem to get using globally in the examples 14:51:01 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 14:51:11 using/used 14:56:08 scottmaccal [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has joined #lisp 14:56:39 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 14:57:04 Guthur: local special declarations are a bit unintuitive and thus bug-prone. 14:57:32 kpreid [n=kpreid@209.217.212.34] has joined #lisp 14:58:35 -!- reaver_ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit ["powering down and out"] 14:58:48 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:59:16 Any idea of how I can test if a float is NaN or not? 14:59:26 pkhuong they still get destroyed each time the local scope is left, right? 14:59:37 proun [n=proun@cpe-76-180-87-229.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:59:57 Guthur: destroyed? 15:00:01 drgnvale [n=acristin@209.16.73.144] has joined #lisp 15:00:16 smithzv: the easiest way is (/= x x), if your compiler isn't too smrt. 15:00:32 or (apropos "NAN") 15:00:38 Guthur: they have lexical extent 15:00:57 pkhuong: thanks 15:02:01 benny [n=benny@i577A17A2.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:02:50 How does the smartness of the compiler come into play. And I am using SBCL so that is fairly smart, right? But I think the NaN is coming from some C I am linking against. 15:03:15 pkhuong sorry for the confusing terminology, stassats comment cleared it up 15:04:59 smithzv: "smrt"-ness ;) A smart compiler will DTRT and not constant fold the comparison away when floats might be involved (SBCL gets that one right). This is less of an issue nowadays, but it used to be very common for compilers to apply transformations that are correct on reals but not on floats. 15:06:20 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:07:37 ok, good to know 15:08:59 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 15:10:15 -!- Guthur [i=c13dbf2e@gateway/web/freenode/x-wubffecgsexeauvl] has quit ["Page closed"] 15:11:13 xan [n=xan@62.78.225.40] has joined #lisp 15:12:54 how do you structure a program that has a large part written in C ? 15:13:28 Depends on if the C is written in a modular or an insane style. 15:13:29 does it need a special structure? 15:13:50 stassats: avoid by-value compound types? 15:14:05 im using opencv, a video processing lib on a continuous stream 15:14:19 then i want to get data sent to my lisp 15:15:16 should i write cffi bindings to start/stop and poll 15:15:32 or write the video processing separate, maybe use sockets to communicate? 15:16:01 proun: i did some face recognition with that and communicated through pipes. my need was very simple. 15:16:19 -!- xan [n=xan@62.78.225.40] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:16:29 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:16:32 I'd try to go with CFFI at first, unless your C skills are such that it's simpler for you to write a wrapper with pipes. 15:16:44 I need to perform some calculations in parallel and don't know whether I should use threads, like bordeaux or portable, or some higher level library like pcall or eager future. I have data from approximately 850,000 elements with 8 nodes each and I need to perform approximately 2,500 calculations on each node. Because of other considerations on how the calculation results are aggregated, the most obvious way to parallelize the calculation is step 15:17:00 tmh: "is step..." ? 15:17:13 Oh, and I need to repeat this calculation 36 times. 15:17:26 i was worried that cffi calls would add a bunch of extra cpu 15:17:34 pkhuong: is to step 15:17:58 tmh: you were cut after step. 15:18:23 Oh, is to step through the elements and run the calculations on the 8 nodes in parallel. All advice welcome. 15:18:57 tmh: So just run some computation through all the elements, barrier, repeat? 15:19:15 Xach: was that off a cam or a video clip? 15:19:42 anyone using cxml-stp? I'd like some example for stp:filter-recursively, it doesn't seem to work.. 15:19:45 proun: any overhead CFFI adds will be negligible compared to the extra work for communications through sockets or pipes. 15:19:48 proun: still image 15:20:22 Has everyone seen http://clforjava.org ? Unlike clojure, it apparently does CL. 15:20:26 pkhuong: If by barrier, you mean the calculation on the elements is isolated, then yes. Furthermore, the calculation on each node is isolated. This problem is trivially parallel. 15:20:38 proun: did a light adaptation of the example face detection program that spits out sexps. 15:20:55 wgl: i even got the t-shirt! (jerry boetje was at ILC) 15:21:04 I'm ready to see a JVM written in common lisp 15:21:09 tmh: no I mean a barrier, like in OpenMP, where each node oeprates independently until they reach the barrier, and then wait for everyone to have reached it before continuing. 15:21:15 rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:21:16 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:21:26 then we can use the Amazing Power of Java[tm] to solve the world's problems 15:21:29 Xach: cool, im just starting with opencv - it looks very useful, wish there were some cl bindings 15:21:45 dlowe: already been done 15:21:53 dlowe: lichtblau preemptively fulfilled your wish a few years ago. 15:21:56 Xach: google doesn't know about it 15:22:07 pkhuong: Yes, I need to barrier, because I want the maximum result of the nodal calculation for each element. 15:22:21 http://home.fhtw-berlin.de/~lichtebl/cloak.pdf 15:22:35 Xach: not inspiring 15:22:36 of course, you have to get to Operating Lambdan III to view it 15:24:45 xach: Have you tried it out? I mean besides the T shirt. 15:25:06 tmh: so the operation is conceptually a map and reduce with max? Yeah, I'd just write a thin wrapper around bx thread or your implementation's threading library. At first a lock & condition variable-based barrier + accumulator (for the max value), and if that becomes an issue, a hand-rolled one (easy to get very good performance, even with ccNUMA and SMP, when polling is ok). 15:25:08 wgl: No, I haven't. I like the general idea, haven't had time to help out with it. 15:25:29 i failed at step 0, "install perforce" 15:25:52 What? Yet another VC system to do lisp? 15:25:55 that was before it was a public project, it's probably easier now. 15:25:55 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:26:15 ah, yet another VCS 15:26:41 one day, someone will no doubt create a combo vcs client that does all of them 15:26:48 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 15:27:33 pkhuong: Yes, at this initial level, it is just a map and reduce on max. This is really my first effort at parallel programming. I've never had a reason before, but this problem requires it if I'm to get it done. Thanks. 15:27:52 that's a little like commenting that SunOS is "ah, yet another Unix" 15:28:23 pkhuong: It may be time to review my list of concurrent programming books to purchase and get a couple. 15:29:39 or you can write it in cilk++ and apply for some funding at cilkart ;) 15:31:45 ejs [n=eugen@95.135.124.202] has joined #lisp 15:31:49 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 15:32:33 pkhuong: Actually, this might be a good candidate for that if I were programming in C++. I've noticed a trend over past decade in the aerospace community to push C++. It makes my skin crawl, a little. I think their better off sticking with Fortran and waiting for it to catch up than trying to migrate to C++. 15:32:52 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:33:22 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:50 Speaking of Fortran, when I read about the Fortran2003 spec, all I can think is Greenspun. 15:33:58 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:34:11 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:34:19 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 15:34:24 My approach is to use lisp and bank on compiler technology improving, it's pretty good now, though. :-) 15:34:53 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 15:35:29 tmh: not sure where the resources for much more improvements will come from; the one factor in favour of that approach is proebsting's observation that compiler advances improve performance by 2x every 18 years ;) 15:38:30 Heh. Well, this is really the first thing I've coded in lisp that really is pushing the performance limits. 15:39:11 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209.217.212.34] has quit [] 15:40:17 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has left #lisp 15:41:45 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 15:42:05 SBCLers: how could there be a REF to a special variable when converting IR1 to IR2, when IR1-CONVERT-VAR converts those to calls to SYMBOL-VALUE? 15:43:57 only for dead variables, never mind. 15:45:28 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslaj108.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:47:14 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:47:43 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:48:18 tmh: what about Ada? 15:50:01 Reav_1 [n=Reav_1@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 15:50:38 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:47 -!- rudi [n=rudi@129.27.202.101] has quit ["Client exciting"] 15:50:48 p_l: I've never used Ada, it's not really useful for CFD or FEA. I know it is indispensable for certain things, those just aren't things I do. 15:52:01 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-xzwsdvpjlwreistk] has joined #lisp 15:52:13 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-48-114.w90-59.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:52:14 brown [n=user@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 15:52:42 -!- brown is now known as Guest67387 15:53:09 Lisp is awesome for processing data. It takes approximately 12 minutes to read in a single data file for this calculation, but then I can just keep the data in my lisp image and develop the process grabbing subsets. 15:54:01 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-juwoizflsnlszuko] has joined #lisp 15:57:27 tmh: i really enjoy stuff like that. 15:57:39 tmh: it helped when i got 6GB of memory to just do everything in core... 15:57:44 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:58:19 wouldn't it take awhile to load the image? 15:58:20 you COULD probably do that in many other languages using a huge block of shared memory 15:58:25 but probably okay in lisp all right 15:58:35 mmap. 15:58:36 s/okay/handier 15:59:16 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.231.148] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:59:40 rullie: I'm not saving the image, I just leave it up and running, it's on my workstation. As for doing it in other languages, sure, but doing it in lisp required nothing on my part, it just does it. 16:00:45 I have gotten into the habit of designing all of my data processing so that it happens in core. 16:02:00 what is this clforjava thing? I thought ABCL was able to do the whole java<->lisp calling thing... 16:02:43 sykopomp: I had the same question, I think clforjava is supposed to have a more seamless integration, didn't really look into it. 16:03:27 hm 16:03:54 tmh: Yeah. Related, it's also my primary example for the the coolness of restarts. Think you're trying to parse some large file, and in the 10000th line there's a parse error due to, say, some misplaced character. In Lisp, you just edit the file, invoke a restart, and on you go! 16:04:14 I wonder -- has anyone here used ABCL with android? It would be nice to use it for that, but ABCL is suspiciously slow. I wonder if it would be even remotely useful for an embedded app. 16:05:18 (Or alternatively, fix some bug in your parse function) 16:05:19 tcr: Oh, yeah, I hadn't thought of that. I'll definitely try it next time that happens. 16:06:16 -!- Intensity [i=[BdLfKfG@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:08:19 -!- ejs [n=eugen@95.135.124.202] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:09:50 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:10:29 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 16:11:48 -!- amaron [n=amaron@93.86.161.198] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:13:04 ... Heh. Does Clozure CL on Win32 / Windows x64 interop properly with windows exception handling, particularly with respect to unwinding non-lisp stack frames? 16:15:05 -!- knobo [n=user@88.87.57.60] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:17:10 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:53 Test. 16:18:25 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:39 tmh: Test complete. 0/1 tests passed. 16:19:46 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@246-107.dial.nortenet.pt] has joined #lisp 16:19:59 Ooh. One of the two entries in ccl manual section 12.6.2 (limitations and known bugs, for the shared library support) is "Don't get me started." 16:20:00 No kidding. I've been increasingly getting a response from Firefox that the network link was interrupted. It's odd. It's never obvious where the failure is located. 16:20:34 That was directed at nyef. 16:21:02 I have an old linksys wireless router that may need to be replaced. 16:21:06 Yeah, quite often when I get that it seems to be limited to a single site... 16:21:23 Ooh. What sort of wireless router? 16:21:36 tmh: macos? 16:21:42 One of the wrt54g variants that can be upgraded with dd-wrt or similar? 16:22:05 (Snow Leopard has a few weird issues with wifi under certain circumstances) 16:22:24 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:22:29 rsynnott: RHEL nyef: it is a wrt54g, but not a version that can be upgraded. It happens on my workstation which is actually on the ethernet. 16:23:05 Mmm. I have one of the crippled wrt54g units myself. rev5, I think, for me. 16:25:48 I'm looking at Eager Future -> http://common-lisp.net/project/eager-future/ , it's on top of bordeaux. It has a plet, I could put each nodal computation in the plet and max the results. That would be sweet if I understand it correctly. 16:28:00 tmh: ChanL implements futures as a usable example, and it's faster than EF (not to mention can be used more generally) 16:28:39 for bonus points, you could have each node continuously generating results, and you can demux all results from all nodes from a single thread, continuously. 16:28:54 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 16:29:38 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:30:29 tmh: http://www.cl-user.net/asp/libs/chanl (the download is out of date -- github has the latest tarball in the downloads section) 16:31:12 whr [n=user@chello084010174133.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 16:31:13 sykopomp: I'm looking at it on github. I really only need 8 threads and am doing basically a map/reduce on max on those 8. 16:31:23 results 16:31:45 sounds reasonable 16:31:59 weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:32:01 hey 16:32:05 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:32:08 anyone wrote portable namestrings? 16:32:16 The biggest problem for both chanl and EF is bordeaux threads, it doesn't seem to support LispWorks very well. 16:32:18 nurv101 [n=nurv101@fw.l2f.inesc-id.pt] has joined #lisp 16:32:31 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 16:32:44 tmh: what's wrong with its LW support? 16:33:04 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:33:41 -!- nurv101 is now known as arturventura 16:33:55 sykopomp: I do my development using SBCL on linux, but do occasionally build stuff on winders using LispWorks. According to the common-lisp.net site, bordeaux threads only supports LW on PPC. Although, that page looks a little dated now that I think about it. 16:34:04 -!- arturventura is now known as adfv 16:34:25 that seems weird; lispworks has a common cross-platform threads API, no? 16:34:41 rsynnott: good point. 16:34:51 tmh: the lispworks.lisp file in bordeaux-threads seems to be pretty complete, and uses the MP API 16:35:29 unless it makes assumptions based on some unusual behaviour of the ppc threading, but that seems improbable 16:35:52 more likely that whoever wrote the article only tried it on ppc and didn't want to make assumptions 16:36:16 So, bordeaux threads appears to be what all the kool kids are using. 16:36:24 Are you referring to the table saying "Tested (whatever that means) on the following platforms:"? 16:36:24 it doesn't seem to be doing anything specialy. It's just mostly straight-up using the MP stuff 16:36:35 ah, yeah, the chart on the c-l.net page is just what he tested it on 16:37:06 (it's unfortunate that he doesn't include a key, pehaps; I wonder what yellow for ABCL means?) 16:37:13 yeah, I shouldn't believe everything I read on the internet. 16:37:57 peddie_ [n=peddie@c-67-180-249-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:02 ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 16:42:08 Ye cats! What a crowd. 16:42:15 Are there issues with running threaded stuff under SLIME? 16:42:41 tmh: not particularly... you need to redirect output if you want to print from other threads, though. 16:42:58 but the debugger usually behaves pretty well when something blows up in a different thread. 16:43:11 Ok, thanks 16:43:50 hello, can i add an documentationstring to an defmethod form? 16:44:04 Yes 16:44:05 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 16:44:15 ol3```: (defmethod foo ((bar bar)) "My docstring goes here..." ...do stuff...) 16:44:21 sykopomp: how do you access it? 16:44:37 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:44:38 Xach: access what? the docstring? 16:44:41 thank you 16:44:45 sykopomp: yes. 16:44:51 documentation? 16:44:59 as in the method 16:45:11 Xach: I don't know, actually :P 16:45:26 probably by inspecting the method object through the genfun 16:45:35 I don't know if DOCUMENTATION can hook into it. 16:45:36 clhs documentation 16:45:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm 16:46:05 aha 16:48:09 so...find-method + documentation? 16:48:20 seems like it 16:49:10 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:26 -!- Reav_1 [n=Reav_1@212.88.117.162] has quit ["~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~"] 16:52:56 ejs [n=eugen@94.178.0.116] has joined #lisp 16:53:22 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:53:38 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:54:42 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-180-249-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:55:56 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:56:13 scottmaccal [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has joined #lisp 16:56:45 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:59:36 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:01:39 xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 17:02:10 How does form completion on websites work? 17:03:05 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 17:03:14 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 17:03:51 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:05:38 tcr: what do you mean? 17:06:45 Hmmm, going parallel is a little more difficult than I anticipated, primarily because of my ignorance of parallel programming. 17:06:47 Like if you type something in a web form like google, you'll see a list of possible completions. I think this is based on ajax stuff, right? 17:07:00 rpg [n=rpg@192.1.118.183] has joined #lisp 17:07:06 I think I'll switch to ocaml or haskell. ;-:P 17:07:20 tmh: it gets easier when you start thinking about it in terms of communicating processes. 17:07:20 I mean clojure 17:07:34 I don't think those languages will help you with this at all :) 17:07:59 and common lisp has more complete concurrency support than clojure does, anyways. 17:08:09 (well, through libraries) 17:08:13 tcr: Yeah, ajax stuff. ISTR seeing a couple examples a while back based on things like the yahoo toolkit. 17:08:16 sykopomp: This is a pretty trivial problem. I need to perform 8 calculations in parallel and then store the max result. 17:08:35 tmh: are the 8 computations single-result? 17:08:42 Yes 17:08:48 tmh: ok, you can use chanl for this 17:09:00 (loop repeat 8 maximize (recv result-channel)) 17:09:10 ^ 17:09:22 I was hoping it was something like that. 17:09:23 then have each of the 8 processes (send result-channel (my-calculation)) 17:09:36 nyef: Ajax is basically that java script in the browser can maintain a socket to a webserver? 17:10:29 tcr: not really. it's basically asynchronous HTTP calls to server, in the beginning often done with a hidden iframe 17:10:30 tcr: a socket? no, you can do http requests, thats it 17:10:47 tcr: Maintain a connection, or merely make additional requests in the background for use by code instead of shown directly to the user. 17:11:27 Wow, I'm somewhat impressed by the level of connectivity. 17:11:31 we have reached 17:12:08 tcr: In some configurations you can get downstream from server to be a chunked connection that works like constant connection 17:14:14 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.30] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:14:45 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 17:15:14 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 17:15:23 Note that the XML part of "Asynchronous Javascript and XML" is strictly optional. The real requirements are client-side scripting, ability to manipulate the information displayed, and the ability to make additional HTTP requests from the server without disrupting the display to the user. 17:15:45 Umm... And without breaking responsivity to the user. 17:16:35 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:17:08 -!- Levenson1 [n=Levenson@92.46.80.128] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:17:33 "Communicating Sequential Processes" $185 new, ouch. I followed the PDF link, but I like to have real copies of good books. 17:19:26 Go to a university's library 17:19:28 Digital signals are real too! 17:20:18 joshe [n=joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 17:20:26 tcr: You sound like my wife. People collect things, for me it's books. 17:20:28 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 17:20:57 tmh: I'm glad to hear you're interested in chanl :) 17:21:18 tmh: That book is definitively not worth 200 bucks 17:21:26 Jafet: I thought the point was that they were mapped over integers? 17:21:59 http://www.cl-user.net/asp/libs/chanl now contains an up-to-date download link. 17:22:19 Adlai: I finally have a justified reason to do something in parallel. I've wanted to learn parallel programming techniques for a long time, but never needed to, until now. 17:23:05 Adlai: I want to use something that will work across implementations and I'd like more abstraction that just threads. 17:23:30 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:23:40 tmh: right now, chanl just wraps BT, so it's fairly portable. 17:24:41 also, if you find the Futures implementation in #P"chanl:examples;futures.lisp" useful, let us know, and maybe we'll move it into ChanL proper. 17:24:49 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:24:50 InvisibleTomato [n=DEDULO@217.18.135.36] has joined #lisp 17:25:06 seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:33 -!- ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:26:23 tmh: if you're talking about abstracting across processes, that's not currently possible -- chanl only really does threads right now, but it's perfectly possible to make channels an abstraction over IPC (that's what stackless python does, for example) 17:26:32 Adlai: Ok. I'm going to dig into it. I like the pexec form. More forms/macros with that level of abstraction would be great. 17:26:42 spilman_ [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-123-94.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:27:05 stassats: here? 17:27:08 sykopomp: I'm thinking more along the lines of things like plet and friends. 17:27:27 tmh: also, there's the very beginnings of a cross-thread condition system, in examples/conditions.lisp 17:27:34 tmh: ah. PLET exists in examples/futures.lisp iirc 17:28:20 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:28:22 where "cross-thread condition system" would really just be a pretty thin layer on top of the existing condition system. 17:28:27 sykopomp: I'll look, thanks. I also want to figure out how to do it using recv. Down the road, distributed would be nice, but I have no immediate need for that. First I need to max out my workstation. 17:28:43 tmh: what platform do you use? 17:29:22 Adlai: SBCL on RHEL. But, I need to have LispWorks support because eventually I'm going to need to ship software on Winders. 17:30:00 sykopomp: I downloaded clforjava and can't figure out how to run it from the command line. Seems you need eclipse. Not sure that is going to happen here. 17:30:18 Adlai: Eventually, I want to get around to evaluating Scieneer as well. 17:30:37 tmh: channels are a relatively low-level construct. It's very easy to build -other- things on top of them (like futures, actors, etc). If you want simple constructs like PLET, you need to do some wrapping (keep in mind, chanl's PLET is internally written with just plain channels) 17:30:40 Although, Scieneer isn't on windows. 17:30:47 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-48-114.w90-59.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:31:26 wgl: don't you have a .jar? 17:31:28 sykopomp: Yeah, that's why I want to learn to solve it with recv first. I would like to understand this stuff better. 17:31:55 sykopomp: many. 17:31:57 tmh: Look in examples/sieve.lisp for a very inefficient but conceptually interesting use of channels. 17:32:10 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.177] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:32:41 Adlai: Yeah, I looked at that, I might tweak the eratsothenes and submit a patch. :-) I've been playing with prime sieves, lately. 17:32:41 metric [n=metric@209-20-86-67.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:26 tmh: oh, also, look at examples/utils.lisp for a very simple but powerful way of using chanl. 17:33:42 tmh: Wait, what? You're going to pay for lispworks in order to ship on windows rather than paying an sbcl developer to fix what's needed so that you can ship with sbcl instead? 17:33:49 mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.177] has joined #lisp 17:33:57 Adlai, sykopomp: Looks good, I'll dig into it. 17:34:05 tmh: not the macro cleanup-leftovers; that's actually cruft that should get cut out. I'm talking about syncout. 17:34:29 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229081180.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 17:34:39 nyef: I still might do that, but I want to use CAPI. 17:34:41 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.177] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:34:45 tmh: (you could also use CCL on windows) 17:34:48 tmh: not sure there's a point in using plet, futures and all that when your problem doesn't do nested parallelism naturally. It seems like you can just distribute the work units ahead of time and process them iteratively. 17:35:19 mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.177] has joined #lisp 17:35:55 pkhuong: That makes sense, but I don't understand parallelism well enough to know the best approach. I'm just trying to get started. 17:36:00 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A17A2.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:36:19 I should probably quit chatting here, eat some lunch and dig into ChanL and friends. 17:36:46 Adlai: sieve.lisp is also an example of how useless parallelism can be amirite? ;) 17:37:08 sykopomp: at least it generates pretty pictures when you enable syncout... 17:37:20 indeed. Very pretty. 17:37:22 tmh: Am I allowed to give you a hard time for not funding an API-compatible replacement for CAPI? 17:37:35 nyef: of course you are. It's the internet! 17:37:47 Heh. 17:37:48 nyef: Of course. :-) 17:38:20 -!- rpg [n=rpg@192.1.118.183] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:38:26 tmh: you can look at the parallel mandelbrot code in the shootout for an example of distributing work for iterative processes. 17:39:10 Hmm, rendering mandelbrot is iterative? 17:39:19 nyef: If you want to have that discussion, I don't want it based on CLX. I want a lisp version of XCB, call it XCLB. If I get to the right point in my business, I will definitely fund SBCL work. 17:39:24 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:39:45 pkhuong: Thanks. 17:40:07 Jafet: sure, iterate through all the pixels 17:40:13 tmh: if you port that code to use ChanL... "patches welcome" ! 17:40:40 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-143.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:40:41 Adlai: Absolutely. 17:41:47 nyef: I'm serious, I still donate money to the FreeBSD foundation even though I haven't used it in a year. Maybe SBCL should set something similar up. 17:42:34 *tmh* hopes to get back to FreeBSD someday, hopefully soon if VirtualBox works well. 17:43:16 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:43:25 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.177] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:44:05 mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.177] has joined #lisp 17:44:44 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.177] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:45:08 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 17:45:22 mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.177] has joined #lisp 17:45:32 -!- InvisibleTomato [n=DEDULO@217.18.135.36] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:45:59 here is a contrast to the article from earlier: http://ridvan.baluyos.net/blog/2009/10/14/learning-lisp/ 17:46:05 *Xach* holds head in hands 17:46:41 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:46:55 Xach: buh 17:47:21 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:31 "In Lisp, f(x) is written as (f x) since it is Postfix." <- some kind of sick joke+ 17:48:32 ? 17:48:44 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.107.70] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:49:45 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94.178.0.116] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:49:50 is there a LAPACK/CLAPACK wrapper in use for common lisp? 17:50:32 levy [n=levy@89.223.184.186] has joined #lisp 17:50:39 gonzojive: matlisp 17:50:39 Adlai: Clearly. It'd be (x f) if it were really postfix. 17:51:11 nyef: maybe he installed his reader backwards? You never know what these debian-packaged CL implementations do... 17:51:16 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:51:30 gonzojive: cl-blapack. 17:51:33 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 17:51:47 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148] has quit ["leaving"] 17:51:54 Ah, right. Ubuntu user. 17:52:37 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:50 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:14 nyef: it sounds like he learned lisp using On Lisp 17:53:20 sykopomp: not even 17:53:37 "*shorthand commands are called macros." -- after he describes the quote syntax 17:53:47 benny [n=benny@i577A17A2.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:53:48 Adlai: "Ive read almost a third of Paul Grahams On Lisp Book and allow me to summarize it, based on my own pace and understanding, in a nutshell." 17:53:57 pkhuong: I don't think I've seen cl-blapack, I'm going to look at it. 17:54:47 sykopomp: so he hasn't learned Lisp, and he hasn't even read the parts of On Lisp which introduce anything beyond (defun factorial ...) 17:54:55 sykopomp: Clearly, his understanding -fits- in a nutshell. 17:55:06 Edward__ [n=Ed@81.249.130.123] has joined #lisp 17:55:37 InvisibleTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 17:55:39 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:55:56 defuns and lists allow you to travel very far in lisp 17:56:06 sebyte [n=sebyte@vps203.linuxvps.org] has joined #lisp 17:56:33 is the winston and horn book any good? 17:56:44 Yes, defuns and lists allow you to go far... but you're sortof restricted to peano arithmetic then, aren't you? 17:56:47 if one read ansi common and on lisp are they in good position to develop some mean lisp apps? 17:56:54 buhh 17:56:57 what's the reason for differentiating between even and odd fixnums? 17:56:58 i have the winston and horn and ansi common 17:57:02 in sbcl 17:57:08 *Adlai* steps away from the channel and breathes for a few seconds 17:57:14 some aprt of me wonders of pcl is not that great 17:57:22 tcr: You get a higher bound on fixnums 17:57:24 the author seems to not have developed any killer lisp apps 17:57:25 tcr: Gets you an extra bit for fixnums at the cost of an extra lowtag. 17:57:26 sykopomp: Oh. got it to work. Simply "java -jar CLforJava.jar" 17:57:26 tcr: it's a simple way to use one more bit for fixnums and make that explicit in the tagging scheme. 17:57:29 nyef: church numbers are enough 17:57:31 or have any company doing anything intereting 17:57:38 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 17:57:50 and his book uses all franz stuff 17:57:54 hi all, I'm trying to get some useful output from TRACE to help with a recursive function I'm writing, but all it's giving me is a terse two lines of output - one line as the function is entered, and one line as the function is exited. Am I missing something? 17:57:55 not free stuff liek hunchentoot 17:57:56 gws: I'd say you want to spend about 10 years doing lisp before you do anyhting interesting, of course. 17:57:56 booooo 17:57:57 Ah because the even one is 0, right 17:58:03 sebyte: are you on CCL? 17:58:10 10 years! 17:58:16 *tmh* goes to get lunch 17:58:17 Adlai: yup 17:58:17 yeah, it's not too bad. 17:58:35 sebyte: there's a site explaining how to get around that 17:58:51 but basically, you need to declare the function NOTINLINE within the scope of yoru defun 17:58:52 -!- InvisibleTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:59:04 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 17:59:05 gws, i learned lisp from winston and horn 2. edition and enjoyed it, but there is also practical common lisp 17:59:46 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:48 tcr: Essentially, they're arranged so that the lower tag bits are 0 and the higher tag bits are don't-care. 18:00:08 gws: for clojure there is 'programming clojure' 18:00:20 sebyte: http://trac.clozure.com/openmcl/wiki/DebugWithOpenmcl 18:00:34 Adlai: I've tried googling for 'trace ccl' and didn't find much... i'll try again... at least it's good to know it's not me that's going crazy! 18:00:44 sebyte: that link right there ^^ 18:00:47 Adlai: Ah! Thanks a lot 18:01:36 Adlai: thanks again - that's exactly what I was looking for 18:01:57 nyef: which higher bits? 18:02:28 -!- sebyte [n=sebyte@vps203.linuxvps.org] has left #lisp 18:02:49 tcr: the topmost bit in the lowtag is a don't care for fixnums (is part of the payload). 18:04:15 sebyte [n=sebyte@vps203.linuxvps.org] has joined #lisp 18:04:33 Adlai: It ain't working!!! :( 18:04:50 sebyte: paste your code on lisppaste 18:04:53 lisppaste: url? 18:04:54 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 18:04:54 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@81.249.130.123] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:05:45 Adlai: hold on - maybe case is important in declare forms... 18:05:46 sebyte: don't think so. 18:05:54 nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has joined #lisp 18:07:01 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.221.109] has joined #lisp 18:07:51 Adlai: nope, no difference.... it's just a simple exercise in writin a _tail-recursive_ factorial function... I'll paste it anyway. 18:07:57 fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 18:08:25 sebyte: tail recursion makes a difference. Try adding (optimize debug (speed 0)) 18:08:58 Adlai: you mean (speed 3)? 18:09:11 What does LEA EAX, [EDX+1] do? 18:09:28 sebyte pasted "Tail recursive factorial function (traceable in CCL)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88635 18:09:32 "computes the effective address" is of no help to me 18:09:40 sykopomp: no, the exact opposite. He's trying to get more backtrace info, not less. 18:10:05 Adlai: oh, sorry. (debug 3), then? :) 18:10:12 clhs optimize 18:10:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_optimi.htm 18:10:19 sykopomp: same thing 18:10:50 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:10:54 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 18:10:59 ! 18:11:09 Adlai: just noticed your (optimize... ) suggestion. trying it now... 18:11:25 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 18:11:35 KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:56 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:13:07 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 18:13:20 sebyte: trace isn't going to show an internal function. 18:14:20 Adlai annotated #88635 "Try it this way for TRACE" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88635#1 18:14:22 scottmaccal [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has joined #lisp 18:14:29 sebyte: see annotation. 18:14:34 Adlai: So any function you define that uses labels is effectively untraceable? 18:15:12 rpg [n=rpg@192.1.118.183] has joined #lisp 18:15:20 sebyte: Real Programmers can write print statements in any language. 18:15:36 -!- rpg [n=rpg@192.1.118.183] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:16:04 rpg [n=rpg@dhcp192-1-118-111.bbn.com] has joined #lisp 18:16:09 -!- rpg [n=rpg@dhcp192-1-118-111.bbn.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:16:16 sebyte: Why are you using labels? 18:16:48 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:16:48 sebyte: could be, depending on the implementation. 18:16:48 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:16:56 tmh: i'm plodding my way through On Lisp. It's old, I know. 18:17:00 tmh: it's a very common tail-recursion idiom. 18:17:27 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:17:52 Adlai: I don't get your assesrtion about 'real programmers'? 18:18:11 Ah, ok, I've seen that. I was going to suggest that unless you have a reason, just separate the functions. 18:19:19 tmh: a good idea, but not one that will help with debugging tail recursive functions. 18:19:38 sebyte: you could try turning off tail recursion -first- 18:19:51 then, once you know it works, switch on tail recursion :) 18:20:05 s/tail recursion/TCO/ 18:20:10 (if TCO is the issue...) 18:20:32 sebyte: I'm looking at your paste, just a minute. 18:21:12 sykopomp: sorry sykopomp, i'm not up to dat with my acronyms, but i recognise sed snippets when i see them... what's TCO? 18:21:26 sebyte: tail-call optimization. 18:21:30 sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 18:21:49 sebyte: I'm poking fun at the sentiment that "Real programmers can write FORTRAN in any language" 18:22:17 tmh annotated #88635 "sebyte, trace this." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88635#2 18:23:02 sebyte: That's what I will do for tail recursion, a wrapper interface function. 18:23:19 sykopomp: ah, well it's all a learning exercise really - a non-tail-recursive factorial function is trivial so 'turning it off' is pretty pointless 18:23:32 cl [n=charli@g226028052.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:23:45 sebyte: nevermind, I misunderstood the issue :) 18:24:10 ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 18:24:14 -!- cl [n=charli@g226028052.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:24:59 Although, in this case, I would have just done what Adlai did. 18:25:10 tmh: that's a cool solution 18:25:34 sebyte: Adlai's is better. 18:25:34 -!- borism [n=boris@195.50.205.198] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:25:58 tmh: i like yours (no offence Adlai :) 18:26:43 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:27:12 That's funny, because I don't. 18:27:14 :-) 18:27:53 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-235.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 18:28:18 tmh: actually, on closer inspection Adlai's is pretty cool too. At first glance I didn't clock the &optional. 18:28:24 hi 18:28:27 pkhuong: The parallel mandelbrot example is good, except that the function requires 2 arguments and it's not clear to me how to wrap it in a function without arguments. I think I can, but haven't figured it out. 18:29:28 sebyte: Also note that Adlai uses (1- n) versus decf, there's no need to actually modify n, just pass a new value. You're doing a functional, tail-recursive algorithm, why are you mutating? 18:29:38 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:48 tmh: (lambda () (function-requiring-2-args x y)) 18:29:54 tmh: good point :) 18:31:26 dlowe: Wow, once again the obvious eludes me. 18:32:11 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 18:34:16 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:34:17 -!- ZabaQ [n=john_con@playboxgames.com] has quit [] 18:34:19 tmh: you really shouldn't spawn a new thread for each work unit, but rather one per core for the duration of the computation 18:35:13 hi. Does anyone know wether sbcl can be built on mac os x snow leopard at the moment? I fail to do so successfully. 18:35:30 pkhuong: Ok, I was thinking about that. What I'd like is 8 threads that get reused, if that is possible. It's kind of convienent that the element has 8 nodes and my workstation has 8 cores. 18:36:12 That's why I was looking into ChanL and related. 18:36:13 (tried latest repo checkout bootstrapping with 1.0.30 binary downloaded from the website) 18:38:15 demmel: you need the latest xcode (3.2?) 18:40:42 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.177] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:41:24 -!- gws [n=g@w005.z209031033.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:42:20 mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.177] has joined #lisp 18:44:25 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@88.73.228.54] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:44:37 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:45:27 Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has joined #lisp 18:45:43 Adlai: tmh: Regardless of whether it can be traced or not, any idea why my factorial function (with labels) doesn't actually work? It appears to me to do exactly the same thing as yours do? 18:46:10 pkhuong: i do have the latest xcode. sbcl builds, but says sb-posix contrib failed the test. when i install and run anyway, it doesnt start up properly 18:46:44 the 1.0.30 binary used for bootstrapping runs fine, but doesnt include thread support unfortunately 18:46:56 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:48:31 sebyte: because of decf 18:50:41 demmel: that's another issue... That contrib reliably fails or succeeds depending on the host, it seems. 18:50:43 *levy* is watching a live online streaming video of a soccer game under Windows 7 under VirtualBox under Ubuntu, because Ubuntu was not able to play the windows specific stream ;-) 18:50:59 tmh: really! decf modifies its argument, but it still returns the a value one less than the value of it argument, does it not? 18:51:03 levy: And that is why I have grown to love VirtualBox 18:51:22 sebyte: I'm as confused as you are, just a minute while I play around. 18:51:24 with break 18:52:30 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/freenode/x-nbugdikhjjthgnei] has joined #lisp 18:53:02 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:53:10 pkhuong: So I probably cannot build a working sbcl as of now? (until someone fixes this problem) 18:53:38 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.23.253] has joined #lisp 18:54:03 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:54:25 pkhuong: Or should I be able to get sbcl running even with that sb-posix contrib failing some tests? 18:54:47 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.40.222] has joined #lisp 18:55:38 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-134.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:56:05 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.40.222] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 18:56:22 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/freenode/x-nbugdikhjjthgnei] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 18:56:34 sebyte: I'm a little slow. It's because of the evaluation rules. The arguments are evaluated left to right, so when n=1, the function call is (rec-fn (decf n) (* n acc)). 18:57:07 varjagg [n=eugene@80.202.117.103] has joined #lisp 18:57:25 demmel: should be, except that the installer might check for success there. 18:58:01 tmh: I wouldn't call that slow! That's really good to know. Thanks. 18:59:19 tmh: Incidentally, your kludge (if I may call it that :) can't be traced either (in CCL). 18:59:20 pkhoung: I'm just trying to build 32 bit now. 18:59:45 emma [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-mwpwdtrrvkexuczc] has joined #lisp 19:00:00 tmh: and yes, I declared both fns as notinline. 19:01:04 sebyte: It seems to trace in SBCL without modification, other than correcting the DECF error. 19:01:52 tmh: another reason to use sbcl then :) 19:02:37 sebyte: Perhaps. Or another reason to read the CCL documentation. 19:03:12 tmh: i'm stuck on a mac at the moment, vanilla fink is broken, i tried rolling my own sbcl but it kept on borking... so i'm left with ccl 19:04:34 sebyte: If I were on the mac, I spend some effort learning CCL just for the cocoa interface. TRACE is not a valid reason to switch. You should read the documentation and understand why it is not tracing. 19:05:04 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:18 tmh: perhaps, but it's a question of priorities... i've got plenty to read already, and when things that i'm used to working on one platform, don't work on another, it's kind on frustrating. 19:05:40 tmh: i've yet to hit on something that works on ccl and not on sbcl. 19:05:52 s/on/in 19:05:57 sebyte: windows 19:06:09 sebyte: Heh, try using FFI for objective-C 19:08:08 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:08:42 -!- sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 19:08:45 sebyte: CCL seems to be safer about stuff such as threads. 19:08:58 -!- Athas` is now known as Athas 19:09:04 and it's much much faster at compiling, which is quite handy during development. 19:10:36 So, the CSP book by Hoare looks really good, but I was going to order "Foundations of Multithreaded, Parallel, and Distributed Programming" ~ Gregory R. Andrews. Anyone familiar with that book? 19:11:28 Hoare's CSP-book is pretty heavy and theoretical... 19:11:45 tmh: you should watch Rob Pike's Newsqueak talk. 19:11:56 Then that would be a reason to buy the Andrews book. 19:12:05 demmel pasted "sbcl fail snow leopard" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88638 19:12:27 -!- peddie_ is now known as peddie 19:12:38 pkhuong: When I try to launch my built sbcl with slime, I get an errir "Don't know how to REQUIRE SB-BSD-SOCKETS" 19:12:40 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host151.190-227-42.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:13:07 pkhuong: So it seems to me the failiure of the sb-posix tests resulted in some other stuff not to be built 19:13:35 I enjoyed Milner's pi calculus book much more than CSP 19:13:38 demmel: is your SBCL_HOME right? 19:14:25 pkhuong: I didnt set anything, though i used the standard path "/usr/local/" 19:15:16 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.40.222] has joined #lisp 19:15:16 pkoung: and installing the prebuilt binary the same way works fine 19:16:26 housel: Thanks, I'll look over it. 19:19:52 pkhuong: thanks. It seems like blindglobe on github is doing a lot with matrices and lisp... he forked cl-blapack and has an active project going called lisp-matrix 19:20:59 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:23:40 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.177] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:24:33 ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 19:25:19 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:26:58 -!- emma [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-mwpwdtrrvkexuczc] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:30:30 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-36-115.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:30:59 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:31:32 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:32:32 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 19:33:17 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:21 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 19:34:49 Ok, more coffee and then Rob Pike on newsqueak. 19:38:04 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:42:26 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 19:43:26 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 19:43:40 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:49 -!- ol3``` [n=user@82.113.121.144] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:48:41 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:49:25 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:50:13 Heh, "lambda has too many characters in it, so we named it prog" 19:50:37 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-35-142.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:50:51 tmh: saving yourself two chars' worth of typing is, of course, great language design. 19:51:23 I really don't get where the bignum allocation comes from 19:51:47 sykopomp: Yeah, I realize that CSP is the focus and newsqueak is just the example, but that line cracked me up. 19:51:58 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 19:52:49 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:54 reinventing the vocab is essential if you want to do the bait + switch on newcomers 19:53:46 Sometimes not reinventing the vocab can strangle a language with back-compat junk. 19:53:57 Far be it from me to mention any examples, like Java. 19:54:12 Ugh, the sound is out of sync, which is fine when the slides are up, but painful otherwise. 19:54:28 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:35 -!- ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 19:57:36 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 19:58:46 Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-080-247.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 19:58:52 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:59:18 smackarang [n=user@91.190.137.166] has joined #lisp 20:00:02 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 20:03:34 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 20:05:34 -!- HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:06:10 the become-keyword is nice, though 20:07:18 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:07:39 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-75-145.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:09:13 -!- morphling [n=stefan@89.14.136.95] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:12:17 2 become 1 (: 20:12:40 *tmh* smirks 20:13:42 Wrong time of the month. 20:15:35 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:16:40 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:16:51 pkhoung: After commenting out the sb-posix tests (all of them since i didn't know which exactly failed), sbcl installs and starts fine 20:17:23 pkhuong: I guess this is not intended behaviour. I should write to sbcl-devel... 20:17:56 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.85] has joined #lisp 20:18:07 demmel: yeah, might have to mark some more tests as maybe failing. 20:20:33 rvirding [n=chatzill@h52n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:21:26 pkhuong: Do you know by chance if the failing tests are marked somewhere? 20:21:35 not marked 20:21:36 logged 20:22:13 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 20:22:36 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:22:40 demmel: in the printed output. I'd use screen and grep. 20:23:35 arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 20:23:44 pkhuong: I'm not familiar with screen 20:23:56 -!- spilman_ [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-123-94.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:24:54 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:24:54 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:24:54 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.40.222] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:24:54 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:24:54 -!- xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:24:54 -!- whr [n=user@chello084010174133.chello.pl] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:24:54 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-xzwsdvpjlwreistk] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:24:54 -!- hugod 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[verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:24:54 -!- erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:24:54 -!- Soulman [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:24:54 -!- holly__ [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:24:54 -!- Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:24:54 -!- DeusExPikachu [i=pikachu@anapnea.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:24:54 -!- Samy [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:24:54 -!- nullman [n=nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:24:54 -!- clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:24:54 Tordek [n=tordek@host92.201-253-12.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 20:25:17 pkhuong: I'll go read the man page ;) 20:26:45 -!- arbscht 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left #lisp 20:46:31 ol3``` [n=user@82.113.106.84] has joined #lisp 20:49:21 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 20:50:25 demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 20:55:02 -!- proun [n=proun@cpe-76-180-87-229.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["leaving"] 20:56:20 Demosthenes [n=demo@204.52.135.62] has joined #lisp 20:57:31 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:58:08 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 20:58:19 -!- adfv [n=nurv101@fw.l2f.inesc-id.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:00:07 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has joined #lisp 21:04:05 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:08:02 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:08:31 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:55 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.202.106] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:10:35 drafael [n=tapio@118.90.133.41] has joined #lisp 21:11:15 -!- drafael [n=tapio@118.90.133.41] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:12:02 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:12:05 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:12:46 -!- beach` is now known as beach 21:12:50 pkhuong: are you still here? 21:13:30 yes. 21:13:46 -!- demmel [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:14:40 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:15:24 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:15:43 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 21:16:02 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:03 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:16:06 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:17:11 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-235.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:17:44 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:03 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:18:06 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:18:28 pkhuong: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/sequence-iterators.html 21:18:41 pkhuong: I uploaded an updated version, including the darcs repository 21:19:00 Do you have some time? 21:19:49 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:21:10 sure. Reading. 21:21:19 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 21:21:32 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:21:49 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:22:04 You can find the url to the repository in the header part 21:22:18 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 21:22:25 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:13 I ran sprof on (dotimes (i 100) (my-subseq *list* 10 999999)), where *list* is (make-list 1000000) 21:23:56 and reports 10% in alloc-signed-bignum-in-eax but I just can't find where it bignums 21:23:56 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:24:23 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:24:28 looking 21:24:47 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has joined #lisp 21:24:59 Sure take your time, I'll get a snack 21:25:40 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-juwoizflsnlszuko] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:25:40 tcr: you know, just pasting the complete report might be good enough to spot the culprit 21:25:43 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:25:54 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:25:56 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:26:23 well it says my-subseq is the culprit but I can't find where 21:27:01 its disassembly does not contain a call to alloc-signed-bignum, neither does the disassembly of make-sequence-iterator (disassembly as produced by slime-sprof) 21:27:28 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-235.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 21:27:59 tcr pasted "for pkhuong; slime-sprof output" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88640 21:28:20 tcr: and the cycle report? 21:28:49 hello, can i mix ignore/ingorable in a declaration? 21:28:49 21:28:49 21:28:50 m7d [n=lriley@pool-71-102-232-43.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:05 ol3```: yes. 21:29:38 like (declare (ignore foo) (ignorable bar)) ? 21:29:42 yes. 21:29:42 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:29:49 pkhuong: I don't think slime-sprof can do that. I have to refresh my memory on sb-sprof again 21:29:57 brb 21:30:03 ol3```: you can just stuff declarations into DECLARE 21:30:05 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 21:30:06 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:30:22 (declare (fixnum x) (list my-list) (ignore that-damn-array)) etc. 21:30:31 tcr: the report is in two parts, the first gives you data on the call graph, the second is the flat profile you pasted. 21:30:42 thank you (lispworks didn't care about it), thank you 21:31:31 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:31:32 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-33-92-164.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:32:15 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:32:40 tcr: do you have a specific use case for your sequence-iterators? 21:34:25 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:34:50 Sergio`_ [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has joined #lisp 21:34:52 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:34:58 michaelw: It's a chore to write sequence frobbing functions 21:35:24 tcr: MAP(-INTO) (: 21:35:24 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:35:36 that's what I normally use 21:35:58 Look at the Examples in the document 21:36:19 that's not something you can do with map-into 21:36:25 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88.149.210.235] has joined #lisp 21:36:29 this fails of course if I want to do something with non-equal-length sequences 21:36:35 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:36:53 my-subseq is 2x as slow as the subseq that comes with sbcl, and its definition is damn concise 21:37:06 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:37:16 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:37:19 (on vectors, on lists it's like 8x at the moment) 21:38:00 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-134.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:38:00 and with dx-allocated iterators it may get even better 21:38:03 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:38:06 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:38:10 -!- LiamH [n=none@132.250.248.92] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:38:30 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:38:30 erm, not 8x, sorry, 3-4x 21:40:44 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:40:59 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:41:03 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 21:41:08 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:41:24 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:41:57 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 21:44:56 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:40 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:45:45 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:46:00 -!- varjagg [n=eugene@80.202.117.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:46:47 m7d_ [n=lriley@mx1.nativetrails.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:52 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:48:04 tcr: what is make-sequence-like? something to the tune of (defun make-sequence-like (example length &optional initarg) (make-sequence (class-of example) length initarg))? 21:48:15 tcr: might want to also mention concurrent access to iterators. 21:49:09 michaelw: oh sorry, it's from Xof's sb-sequence, a definition can be found in tests.lisp 21:50:00 tcr annotated #88640 "new sprof output" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88640#1 21:50:02 (there's no tests.lisp in the darcs repo?) 21:50:42 michaelw: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/darcs/sequence-iterators/tests.lisp 21:52:24 huh, file's not there when I pull 21:52:39 -!- nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:53:09 Yeah it's not added to the darcs repo 21:53:16 ah 21:53:16 but the tarball I uploaded to c-l.net did contain it 21:53:48 the one mentioned on the s-i documentation links to NIL 21:54:19 sykopomp or Adlai: When I use pcall, does it use a thread from the thread pool or an entirely new thread? 21:54:40 michaelw: lots of links are broken, that's all preliminary 21:54:55 tcr: is darcs supposed to randomly work wrong when different versions collide? 21:55:07 No clue? 21:55:47 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:55:52 pkhuong: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/sequence-iterators.tgz 21:56:05 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:56:19 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:57:17 I'll try on a 32 bit SBCL at home. 21:57:27 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:57:45 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:57:49 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:58:12 Right, the length of the list I tried this on is 1,000,000 21:59:04 the :graph output seems to be undocumented 21:59:14 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.85] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:59:15 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:59:17 I see a potential bignum allocation in make-sequential-iterator. 21:59:36 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:59:52 the (incf index? 22:00:03 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:01:11 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.236.91] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:01:40 oh yeah the disassembly does contain a call to alloc-signed-bignum 22:01:46 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:01:51 no, doesn't make sense, it's just before an error 22:02:15 phoenixi [n=tuomosa@a85-156-197-4.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 22:03:03 -!- m7d [n=lriley@pool-71-102-232-43.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:03:03 -!- m7d_ is now known as m7d 22:03:04 -!- drgnvale [n=acristin@209.16.73.144] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:04:23 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:04:50 ; C4CC: 2D000000E0 SUB EAX, 3758096384 22:04:56 any idea about that magic value? 22:05:02 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 22:05:06 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:05:09 most-positive-fixnum in disguise? 22:05:43 #b11100000000000000000000000000000 22:06:44 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:07:09 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:07:13 Bah seems like I crashed my sbcl instance 22:07:25 tcr: checks for 0 <= eax <= M-P-F, no? 22:09:43 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:42 m7d_ [n=lriley@pool-71-102-232-43.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:34 -!- ol3``` [n=user@82.113.106.84] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:11:36 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:11:45 ol3``` [n=user@82.113.106.84] has joined #lisp 22:12:09 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:12:51 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:13:28 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:33 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:14:09 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:14:47 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:15:07 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:16:00 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:16:19 -!- m7d [n=lriley@mx1.nativetrails.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:16:20 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:16:20 -!- m7d_ is now known as m7d 22:16:39 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 22:16:47 Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has joined #lisp 22:16:55 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:17:06 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:18:51 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:19:03 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:20:25 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:20:56 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:22:11 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:22:14 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:23:53 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:24:06 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:24:11 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:24:32 Ah, well, enough for me today. See you tomorrow. 22:24:35 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:25:32 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:26:10 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:26:38 dv___ [n=dv@85-127-109-82.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:26:56 serichse1 [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d066c92.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:07 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:27:37 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:27:46 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:27:59 -!- roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [] 22:30:25 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:31:48 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:31:49 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:20 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:35:05 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:35:48 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.184.186] has quit ["..."] 22:35:55 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-143.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:36:02 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has joined #lisp 22:36:25 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:36:50 cadabra [n=cadabra@c-76-23-34-5.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:09 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:37:27 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:38:09 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:39:22 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:39:51 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06ea47.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:40:06 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:41:26 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:41:26 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-41.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:42:39 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.85] has joined #lisp 22:43:21 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@tmo-104-146.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:45:29 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.85] has quit [Client Quit] 22:45:36 demmel [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-217-197.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:42 -!- Sergio`_ [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:51:54 -!- ol3``` [n=user@82.113.106.84] has left #lisp 22:55:22 CLForJava does not yet understand defpackage? Hardly lisp yet. 22:56:31 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@c-76-23-34-5.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:57:59 -!- DeusExPikachu [i=pikachu@anapnea.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:58:44 HET2 [n=diman@80.3.31.126] has joined #lisp 22:58:57 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 23:01:17 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:01:51 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:53 -!- faux [n=user@82.182.78.98] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:05:25 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 23:06:10 -!- sysfault [n=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 23:09:07 wgl: really? i thought it was farther along than that. 23:10:03 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 23:10:26 -!- HET2 [n=diman@80.3.31.126] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:10:46 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:11:01 malsyned [n=malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:03 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:14:37 -!- jleija [n=jleija@24.214.122.46] has quit ["leaving"] 23:16:11 Is there a good introduction anywhere to the various kinds of mistakes that can cause a file to load cleanly but not compile cleanly? 23:20:08 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:30 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:22:46 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:23:26 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:23:48 -!- phoenixi [n=tuomosa@a85-156-197-4.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 23:27:47 jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 23:27:48 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:28:11 xach: Well, I pulled down the latest source, did a (in-package 'common-lisp) then tried loading asdf.lisp, and it coughed on the defpackage. Looking at the source, the only 'defpackage' i found in java or lsp was in a java file marked "to be done". 23:29:05 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 23:31:57 xach: this is in a tar file CLforJava-20091010.tar.gz, so it suggests recent. 23:39:15 good night 23:39:32 -!- serichse1 [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d066c92.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["blip"] 23:39:37 minion: memo for gigamonkey: I really liked the joe armstrong black box discussion referred to here: http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2009/10/14/opening-black-boxes/ 23:39:39 Remembered. I'll tell gigamonkey when he/she/it next speaks. 23:41:07 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:41:40 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 23:42:21 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:37 jyujin__ [n=mdeining@vs166245.vserver.de] has joined #lisp 23:43:42 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:44:55 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:45:07 -!- jyujin [n=mdeining@vs166245.vserver.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:48:40 metasyntax` [n=metasynt@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:35 What Joe is alluding to there is that sometimes you spend more work trying to modify your app to fit the black box than it would take to rewrite the functionality of the black box. 23:52:55 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:53:16 And that it's always good to know what's going on inside, even if you do use it. 23:53:50 What's worse is that sometimes you do that even when the black box isn't actually black: you have the source code and the people working in the same building as you have developed it. 23:55:25 it's simpler to think of translucent boxes as black ones. Abstraction and all that. 23:56:20 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:56:20 Yeah, but it's not cool when you find out someone has done some horribly complex and brittle thing to workaround some behavior of your translucent box, instead of just changing the behavior or asking someone down the hall to change the behavior. 23:59:28 and if the box does something really cool then you just have to know how it's done. :-)