00:01:49 ace4016 [i=ace4016@76.87.82.22] has joined #lisp 00:02:46 -!- Ian___ [n=chatzill@bas8-toronto12-1167856762.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"] 00:03:51 -!- fph [i=joe@adsl-68-126-19-98.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net] has quit [" "] 00:04:00 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:04:35 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:36 -!- ravster [n=user@CPE000c41a8878f-CM00195efb5296.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:08:00 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-bvjfkhlhextbijrh] has joined #lisp 00:09:07 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:12:46 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:14:04 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-64-247.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:14:30 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 00:15:57 scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-64-73.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:05 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:16:49 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6E2B0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:52 I'm getting some funky behavior with clisp, but maybe I'm missing something... (in-package my-pack) (defstruct map x y) => continuable error, (SETF FIND-CLASS)(MAP) # is locked 00:17:16 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 00:18:15 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6E2B0.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 00:18:46 well, you are using cl package 00:18:49 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:18:51 clhs map 00:18:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_map.htm 00:19:17 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest10672 00:19:31 stassats: map doesn't name a class >:( 00:19:46 clhs 11.1.2.1.2 00:19:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm 00:19:55 heh. Thanks. 00:20:55 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:21:16 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 00:22:33 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-64-73.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:23:42 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:24:11 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 00:26:48 -!- somguysdfoi3 [n=user@thor.desktops.utk.edu] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:29:04 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:29:23 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 00:33:23 -!- Guest10672 is now known as pkhuong 00:38:10 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@70.167.159.196] has joined #lisp 00:43:21 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.72.20] has joined #lisp 00:48:25 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 00:48:39 sysfault [n=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 00:53:17 TR2N [i=email@89-180-200-220.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 00:55:37 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h52n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:56:18 seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:44 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ooxydatfruabwgmj] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:05:21 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:06:30 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:06:52 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:11:56 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:11 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.44] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:14:36 syamajal_ [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:20 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:16:13 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:18:03 r00tzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 01:18:57 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:19:00 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 01:20:16 male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:47 -!- rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:22:48 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:25:59 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@rescomp-09-132118.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 01:26:39 jasber_ [n=bjasper@173.26.98.219] has joined #lisp 01:27:16 -!- mikes` [n=pic@188-220-121-10.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:28:17 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:30:38 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:30:50 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:31:53 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@87.78.74.91] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:33:25 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-74-91.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:34:08 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-74-91.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 01:34:18 sepult [n=buggarag@87.78.74.91] has joined #lisp 01:36:40 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@99.58.30.149] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:39:59 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.72.20] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:40:40 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:42:37 -!- jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:44:56 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242356947.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:46:44 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 01:47:09 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:47:12 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 01:48:42 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@119.224.32.224] has joined #lisp 01:49:30 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp073.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:52:01 Ok, SBCL needs a fix in its .sh files, as /bin/sh isn't guaranteed to be bash these days. The culprit is `time' not being supported by dash. 01:53:49 deepfire: ... since when /bin/sh was guaranteed to be bash? 01:54:04 <_3b> and why would your shell refuse to run /usr/bin/time? :) 01:54:59 # which time 01:55:01 which: no time in (/usr/local/bin:/opt/jdk1.7.0/bin:/bin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/usr/sbin:/usr/share/java/apache-ant/bin:/opt/brlcad/bin:/opt/texlive/bin/x86_64-linux:/opt/nb/bin:/opt/brclad/bin:/usr/bin/perlbin/site:/usr/bin/perlbin/vendor:/usr/bin/perlbin/core:/opt/qt/bin) 01:55:07 :P 01:55:54 <_3b> well, if you haven't installed the full build environment required by sbcl, that's your fault :p 01:55:58 p_l, well saying 'x isn't guaranteed to be y' is shorter than saying 'x being y is not a plausible assumption anymore' 01:56:09 <_3b> (whether sbcl should require time to be installed is another issue 01:56:58 -!- syamajal_ [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:57:26 <_3b> hmm, gnu time seems more informative than bash time too 01:57:32 <_3b> not quite as readable though 01:58:50 <_3b> ah, apparently there is an option to make it look like posix/bash time 01:59:43 <_3b> heh, also has an ~25 line verbose output format 02:03:40 S11001001 [n=sirian@74.137.151.39] has joined #lisp 02:05:31 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@32.153.129.14] has joined #lisp 02:08:12 -!- Madsy [n=Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:08:32 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:12:40 nvoorhies__ [n=nvoorhie@32.157.114.88] has joined #lisp 02:13:26 Hmm, spam detection facility assigned a -102.5 spam score to my email to xcvb-devel. 02:13:45 Er, spam detection facility on clnet, that is. 02:13:49 nvoorhies___ [n=nvoorhie@32.157.159.14] has joined #lisp 02:15:26 Okay, you did everything right. 02:15:42 Who did? 02:16:58 |stern| [n=seelenqu@tmo-104-146.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 02:18:41 You did, in writing that email. 02:19:42 -!- _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:19:42 -!- eihrul [n=eihrul@ip72-193-224-224.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:19:46 _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:19:50 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.201.190] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 02:20:03 eihrul [n=eihrul@ip72-193-224-224.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:46 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@32.153.129.14] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:21:27 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:21:28 -!- nvoorhies___ is now known as nvoorhies 02:21:30 -!- nvoorhies__ [n=nvoorhie@32.157.114.88] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:21:41 -!- SharkSpider [n=SharkSpi@rn--vw1-0-6-a44.uwaterloo.ca] has left #lisp 02:27:09 Madsy [n=Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 02:30:03 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:30:07 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.157.159.14] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:34:53 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@96.25.78.75] has joined #lisp 02:35:12 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-104-146.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:36:10 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 02:37:29 phy1729 [n=mmartin@ip72-200-59-8.no.no.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:12 -!- seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:38:33 what is the lisp equivalent of C's {} in an if statement? I want to run more than one command if the if evaluates to NIL 02:39:21 clhs progn 02:39:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_progn.htm 02:39:28 minion: pcl for phy1729 02:39:29 phy1729: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 02:39:49 thanks 02:40:10 deepfire: time it seems has been always part of the base set of tools, no? If you dont have 'time', maybe you won't have make or much else... 02:40:34 phy1729: That reference page is sort-of your answer, but that book is really where you should begin. It covers CL from the very beginning, and goes to fairly advanced topics. 02:43:24 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:44:15 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:44:15 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:30 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:50:29 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:56:41 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:56:59 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:07 -!- LiamH1 [n=nobody@pool-72-75-100-210.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:06:40 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.40.222] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:07:22 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.189] has joined #lisp 03:09:17 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:25 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:12:11 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.23.144] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:12:26 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:15:34 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:18:52 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:21:20 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:21:52 jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 03:22:11 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-176-95.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 03:24:16 fusss [n=chatzill@60.241.1.206] has joined #lisp 03:28:41 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@87.78.74.91] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:29:36 -!- jasber_ [n=bjasper@173.26.98.219] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:32:10 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:34:04 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [] 03:37:03 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 03:38:14 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:39:37 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:18 redblue [i=star@ppp146.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:40:55 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:41:27 mdj [n=user@apnnew9.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:14 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:42:45 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 03:45:18 data, malleable data 03:45:31 elephant-bdb + clos + montezuma == kick ass 03:46:22 give your clos object unique IDs, index your docs in montezuma using their IDs as keys, thereby creating a strong link between persisted object and index 03:46:41 wrap all CRUD operations on the data so that changes are made on both databases 03:47:08 put a webservice API around the crud ops and expose them to specialists over a web interface 03:47:18 fetch a beer and watch fireworks :-) 03:48:13 every once in a while they will hand you an algorithm, get back to the data and implement that in CL; weave it into the api and go back to the fireworks 03:49:35 at some point i am gonna need to expose this via a unix named pipe though 03:50:42 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:51:28 Beware of named pipes. 03:51:38 Local domain sockets are much safer. 03:51:50 yeah? 03:52:04 people here a unix heads who want to echo and cat stuff into places 03:52:13 fusss: give them socat 03:52:25 brilliant 03:52:39 let them eat netcat 03:52:49 ayrnieu: no eating cats! 03:52:53 i don't want to be eating by osicat 03:53:16 If you have more than one process writing to a named pipe, then if the writes are bigger than PIPE_MAX they can get interleaved. 03:54:04 jcowan: everything i do has to be so easy that even an idiot can create it 03:54:23 i usually find the most trivial solutions, so probably nothing as "fancy" as named pipes .. 03:56:19 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:57:29 i can has create-directory? or does OPEN handle that a la Unix? 03:58:28 should be in cl-fad 03:59:01 or osicat for that matter 03:59:35 <_3b> clhs e-d-e 03:59:36 ENSURE-DIRECTORIES-EXIST: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ensu_1.htm 04:00:35 aka "mkdir -p" 04:01:26 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@119.224.32.224] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:05:23 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:00 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:06:43 nice 04:09:40 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:10:52 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-33-92-164.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:47 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:15 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:17:48 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has left #lisp 04:19:46 egn [i=tux@nodes.fm] has joined #lisp 04:20:09 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 04:21:32 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:21:39 blitz_ [n=blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 04:21:44 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-176-95.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has left #lisp 04:23:39 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:24:01 hi, I'm trying to exec a vim instance from lisp. I've been using trivial-shell on sbcl to do sys commands, but it looks like it's waiting for the process to complete until it returns, so it doesn't bring me to a vim instance, it just hangs because it doesn't have the display. any way I can do this? 04:24:37 egn: try with sbcl head, there was a bug fixed recently 04:25:32 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-238.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:25:46 egn: details: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/435960 04:27:35 attila_lendvai: thanks 04:27:49 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 04:31:58 Good morning! 04:33:25 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:34:41 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 04:34:45 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 04:37:40 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@96.25.78.75] has quit [] 04:46:56 -!- pemryan is now known as pem 04:51:25 sellout [n=greg@209-203-104-177.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:46 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-143-15.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:47 -!- mdj [n=user@apnnew9.lnk.telstra.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:57:04 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 04:57:31 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:57:34 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 04:59:35 -!- sellout [n=greg@209-203-104-177.static.twtelecom.net] has quit [] 05:00:03 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@118.210.164.226] has quit [Operation timed out] 05:00:21 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.88] has joined #lisp 05:00:33 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:02:56 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.88] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:03:15 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.88] has joined #lisp 05:08:13 -!- jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:12:28 -!- roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 05:15:33 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:21:11 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-88.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:21:16 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-76-122-37-30.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:34 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-235.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 05:25:24 -!- l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 05:26:44 l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 05:28:15 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 05:34:12 KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@d75-159-254-181.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:37 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:37:59 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-76-122-37-30.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["I'm off!"] 05:38:20 authentic [n=authenti@85.127.20.203] has joined #lisp 05:42:27 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.88] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:42:45 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.88] has joined #lisp 05:45:08 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 05:46:45 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-27-177.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:49:06 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 05:55:03 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:55:14 cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #lisp 05:55:26 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.88] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:55:48 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.88] has joined #lisp 06:00:09 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@d75-159-254-181.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:01:28 egn: was it the same bug? did it help? 06:01:50 -!- Douglish [i=dal@horinek.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:02:38 aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has joined #lisp 06:03:11 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229241239.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:04:54 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:10:54 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.88] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:11:18 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.88] has joined #lisp 06:13:54 (sb-ext:run-program "/usr/bin/gnome-terminal" '("-x" "/usr/bin/vim")) ;; works here 06:14:00 ..but i have a fairly recent sbcl 06:15:46 KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:08 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:22:26 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:25:34 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:26:09 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 06:26:18 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.88] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:26:49 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.88] has joined #lisp 06:35:53 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:36:09 hello 06:36:42 -!- r00tzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["leaving"] 06:37:09 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:41:11 anyone know how to add cookies to a drakma cookie-jar? 06:41:59 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229241239.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 06:42:24 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.88] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:42:36 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-206-5-240.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:42:48 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.88] has joined #lisp 06:43:12 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:35 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:43:54 nm 06:44:41 (http-request target :cookie-jar (make-instance 'cookie-jar :cookies (list (make-intance 'cookie ..)))) 06:47:17 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:18 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:47:48 good morning 06:48:18 hey mvilleneuve 06:49:00 ASau [n=user@77.246.231.88] has joined #lisp 06:49:26 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:50:39 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 06:52:02 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.189] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:52:50 Ok, I finally figured out why I constantly keep pressing :a in vim in order to quit. 06:53:09 To activate the abort restart. 06:53:23 attila_lendvai: haven't gotten a chance to grab it. 06:53:43 lnostdal: sorry, I didn't clarify. I meant opening a non-X vim in that current shell 06:53:49 the shell that sbcl is running in* 06:55:04 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:58:37 ahhhh 06:59:01 mozilla runs god awful amount of ajax calls back to its server 06:59:07 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:59:10 err, mozilla network 06:59:40 fun times debugging that :-/ 06:59:44 morphling [n=stefan@89.15.143.177] has joined #lisp 07:00:20 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:22 i highly recommend people play with the Tamper Data mozilla plugin; opens your eyes to the bloat that is web development 07:02:03 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:02:34 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.88] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:02:48 nipra 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(Connection timed out)] 07:18:39 serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d0678c8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:42 good morning 07:22:36 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:23:54 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.236.91] has joined #lisp 07:25:01 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:26:10 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@76.104.183.185] has joined #lisp 07:28:04 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-22-18.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:33:53 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.88] has joined #lisp 07:34:36 -!- legumbre [n=user@190.135.44.124] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:35:46 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:36:20 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:38:47 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@88.73.195.124] has joined #lisp 07:39:17 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation 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[n=eihrul@ip72-193-224-224.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:36:10 can someone recommend a good html parser library? 08:36:27 I'm interested in something that can deal with malformed HTML as well.. 08:36:47 closure-html seems fine, but it's not working :-/ (can't figure why but it doesn't compile) 08:38:43 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:39:33 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:39:45 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6E2B0.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 08:42:05 mishoo: please paste the error 08:42:07 minion: paste 08:42:08 paste: lisppaste: lisppaste is an IRC bot that runs under the nickname "lisppaste" and can be used (only for the #lisp IRC channel!) at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp - or http://paste.lisp.org/ for other destinations 08:43:17 mishoo pasted "closure-html load error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88577 08:44:08 sorry, I don't know how to debug stuff like this :-( 08:44:37 "no dispatch function defined for #\R" -- that's probably the problem 08:44:49 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.88] has joined #lisp 08:45:16 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-164-161.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:45:30 mishoo: well, you have the offending file, line and column 08:45:43 mishoo: you have two clbuild installations ? 08:46:10 fe[nl]ix: nope, why? 08:46:23 fe[nl]ix: ah, /opt/clbuild is symlink to /home/... 08:46:29 oh 08:47:12 *mishoo* thinks ..oO( maybe it's some stuff of mine that's already loaded, let's try with a fresh core ) 08:47:21 ramus`_ [n=ramus@99.23.130.130] has joined #lisp 08:48:02 hmm, it worked now. not sure what's the conflict but probably my fault.. 08:49:42 got it: I defined % as a macro dispatch char, turns out it was a very bad thing to do 08:49:46 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:50:10 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:20 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.130.59] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:50:43 eihrul [n=eihrul@ip72-193-224-224.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:57 lol 08:51:37 fe[nl]ix: yeah, lol :) fortunately not much code relies on it so it's easy to change 08:51:40 anyone know what sort of complex url drakma/puri accept? 08:52:00 i have fed them URLs, escaped, encoded and plain, to no avail 08:54:26 mishoo: Use my named-readtables so that reader-macro is only used locally to some file 08:54:54 mishoo: It's written exactly to overcome such problems 09:00:07 tcr: thanks, seems pretty cool 09:00:09 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:02:48 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-bvjfkhlhextbijrh] has quit [] 09:02:58 tcr: isn't it asdf-install-able? 09:04:47 nvm, just needed to use "editor-hints" instead of "named-readtables" and it installs via clbuild 09:05:09 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.88] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:05:44 That entry is probably dated 09:05:49 Care to provide a patch? 09:06:38 tcr: hmm, what? not sure I understand.. 09:07:00 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-109-82.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 09:07:20 clbuild seems to use the old, obsolete, repository 09:08:26 it pulled from here: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/darcs/editor-hints 09:08:38 [ indeed, it warns that it's obsolete ] 09:08:53 could someone tell me what is the correct :external-format for sbcl linux to get utf8? 09:09:00 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:09:19 mishoo: Yeah, would be coold if you provided a patch to the clbuild maintainers 09:09:19 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:35 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 09:09:45 I have (with-open-file :element-type 'base-char :external-format :utf8 ..) correct? 09:10:12 :utf-8, I think 09:10:15 tcr: will send 09:10:17 fusss: i guess base-char and utf8 won't quite match 09:10:40 heh 09:11:11 got it! 09:11:20 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:11:24 false alarm, wrong w-o-f utf8-ized 09:12:23 possibly a false bug report 09:12:38 but I think drakma's automatic redirect following is broken 09:13:55 but doing (m-v-b (html status headers) (http-request ..) (if (= status +http-moved+) (setf html (http-request (header-value :location headers)))) works 09:14:42 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:15:10 i think i have reached cliki mastery, having broken the 40 package-dependency threshold for a one-man project 09:15:17 thanks for all the fish, folks! 09:15:18 fusss: that code does not deal with recursive redirects 09:15:38 jdz: return-from-redirect hell ;-) 09:15:52 jdz: my use case is a cloaked government page 09:15:56 fusss: and it does not update the status correctly 09:16:18 jdz: correct, but i am doing it in a loop 09:16:18 fusss: well, not my business, but i predict your code will break one day in near future 09:16:28 fusss: ok, nvm then 09:16:38 fusss: what project ? 09:17:18 jdz: it's a one off script; i am fetching reports as we speak and ls -al is showing all different files sizes and no two diff alike. sizes are ballpark and cursory look tells me it's working 09:17:31 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 09:17:51 fe[nl]ix: work project(s); the same ones that have been sucking the life out of me for the last ~4 months 09:17:53 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:59 fusss: i have this rule of thumb: one-off scripts are never one-off scripts. 09:18:16 fusss: they tend to take a life of their own and live longer than you initially expect. 09:19:24 fusss: at least put an ERROR or WARNING call in your code if you encounter a recursive redirect 09:19:46 jdz: yes, but in this case, i am leeching the data and they will be transformed overnight to well preserved s-exps in utf8; simmering for me to use next week :-) 09:19:53 -!- udzinari [n=user@nat/ibm/x-tptstimbbojvqzul] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:20:30 jdz: in this case the redirect is followed only twice; two nested calls to http-request, after which the loop continues with a different url 09:20:33 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:20:34 fusss: was it your course schedule scraper or somesuch? 09:20:50 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:20:50 jdz: no, reports 09:20:59 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:21:08 seangrove [n=user@98.248.37.94] has joined #lisp 09:21:36 btw, people should read "Text Mining with Perl" 09:22:26 excellent text; Feller meets the Camel Book 09:23:24 Edico_ [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:23:30 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-235.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 09:25:38 -!- Edico_ [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Client Quit] 09:25:48 Adlai`` [n=adlai@93-172-224-50.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 09:25:52 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:27:17 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has joined #lisp 09:27:31 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:28:05 -!- aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:29:24 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 09:29:41 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:29:58 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:30:29 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:30:50 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has joined #lisp 09:35:17 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-134.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:36:13 tcr: I'm using (read) to fetch data from some files and I want my custom readtable to apply in that section 09:36:20 tcr: is it safe if I just bind *READTABLE*? 09:36:21 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:37:12 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:37:17 clhs read 09:37:18 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_rd.htm 09:37:37 mishoo: that is actually how you *should* do it. 09:38:16 oh :) thanks. I thought it's specific to named-readtables.. 09:38:27 -!- seangrove [n=user@98.248.37.94] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:39:12 mishoo: (let ((*readtable* (ensure-readtable :foo))) (read some-stream)) 09:39:18 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-27-177.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:39:40 tcr: ensure-readtable? 09:39:42 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:40:01 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:40:05 It's like find-readtable but signals an error if the designated readtable does not exist 09:40:34 oh, riiiight. and find-readtable is? 09:41:19 oh, i get it. named-readtables. 09:41:24 yeah 09:45:31 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:46:43 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:49:19 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:49:29 is there a portable way to load asdf itself? 09:49:41 (load "asdf.lisp") 09:49:46 (require :asdf) (load 'asdf), etc. don't seem to work across the board 09:50:02 You have to ship an .asdf file with your stuff 09:50:09 erm sorry, I mean the asdf.lisp file 09:50:35 dont clisp and cmucl already bundle asdf? 09:50:52 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:51:21 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:52:14 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:52:51 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has joined #lisp 09:54:20 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp146.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:54:50 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 09:55:39 fusss: I don't think so. 09:56:00 pitty 09:56:04 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:56:31 not bundling asdf is just a bad idea in this day and age 09:56:53 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:57:13 Lycurgus [n=Ren@72.228.150.44] has joined #lisp 09:57:22 specifically, clisp could make use of it internally to manage its by products, and maybe clocc, port et al wouldn't look so ugly and outdated 09:57:36 clearly the implementations are ignoring the clamor of the users for it 09:58:18 *fusss* fwiw, just wanted to test if cl-store's persisted objects are restorable across implementations, but that's just too academic .. 10:00:02 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 10:04:30 redblue [i=star@ppp095.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 10:06:02 clisp 2.44.1 comes with asdf 10:06:11 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:06:49 sbcl runtime: why doesn't RUNTIME_OPTIONS_WORDS use sizeof? also, why doesn't is save --lose-on-corruption? 10:08:59 attila_lendvai: i didn't think of the former, and the latter was added without updating the runtime option serialization, apparently 10:09:06 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:09:19 i don't think --lose-on-corruption existed when i made the initial patch 10:09:50 Xach: any action plan? should i leave it and it gets on your TODO? 10:09:56 -!- Adlai`` [n=adlai@93-172-224-50.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:10:23 attila_lendvai: i have no action plan on it. if you'd like to see it updated, submit a bug report or a patch or both. 10:10:33 ok 10:11:51 sellout [n=greg@12.230.92.3] has joined #lisp 10:12:09 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:12:20 pozic [n=pozic@unaffiliated/pozic] has joined #lisp 10:12:59 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:14:02 Some Lisp (and Smalltalk) systems offer image based development (which solves quite a bunch of problems with a textual representation of code). How do people make sure that images don't get corrupted such that they lose lots of work? How does version control work in this setting? 10:15:16 pozic: in Common Lisp, we usually keep the image synchronized to the source code 10:15:24 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has joined #lisp 10:16:12 serichsen: is there some document describing how this works in practice? 10:17:04 HET2 [n=diman@131.251.176.98] has joined #lisp 10:17:23 serichsen: you could either export the source code from the image, I suppose or load the image from the source code. In the latter case adding a function to the image will be slow. In the former case you risk losing your work until you export it again. 10:18:29 In this chapter: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/lather-rinse-repeat-a-tour-of-the-repl.html 10:18:29 Loading a function to an image is not slow 10:18:50 pozic: under "Saving your work", you will find some introduction 10:19:19 In Common Lisp, you typically only work temporarily relative to an image 10:20:11 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:22:03 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:23:51 Is it possible to traverse all the code of the defined functions (which would be possible in a system where the source code is saved in the image)? 10:24:55 pozic: you usually have the source code to everything loaded in the image 10:25:12 serichsen: yes, but that's in text files. 10:25:16 pozic: What do you mean with "traverse the code"? 10:25:35 pozic: the image knows where the definitions are in the text files 10:25:49 tcr: I mean that you can get an s-expression which is all the code which has been defined. 10:25:56 serichsen: oh, good. 10:26:01 pozic: you typically have the original sources of your code in text files, failing that, you can usually call an editor on a lisp object and you will be allowed to edit is compiled representation 10:26:03 -!- morphling [n=stefan@89.15.143.177] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:26:07 No that information is typically thrown away 10:26:27 pozic: (ED 'hello) will throw you in an editor 10:26:41 tcr: not in CMUCL and CLISP 10:26:52 pozic: cl is far from properly handle what you want... reader macros and things like that make it rather hard to work from anything else than text file (unfortunately). but if you stick to some rules with your own code, and work on the infrastructure, then it's doable... 10:27:19 tcr: I used hemlock for 4 years and that's how i always did things. it's still possible, but the sbcl crowd doesn't like that type of development. 10:27:49 fusss: WFM with Hemlock/SBCL 10:28:10 pozic: you used image-based development when you want to ship an application with no visible dependencies. load all the packages you need, write your code, dump a core, then give the user the lisp binary and .core file. No visible packages :-) 10:28:26 lichtblau: WFM? 10:29:01 fusss: You actually work on forms, not on texts? 10:29:08 fusss: please explain -- what feature does CMUCL have there that SBCL and SLIME doesn't? 10:29:47 tcr: not anymore, but that's _really_ how I did things. (ed 'foo) 10:29:49 fusss: I can see that recorded source might sometimes be helpful to view, but would you really want to _edit_ it? 10:29:50 brb 10:29:53 lichtblau: clbuild contains the old repository for named-readtables. 10:31:12 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:31:29 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:33:16 Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has joined #lisp 10:34:57 loop doesnt suck 10:35:53 fgtech^ [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 10:36:02 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:36:52 -!- fgtech^ is now known as fgtech 10:40:01 sellout- [n=greg@12.230.92.3] has joined #lisp 10:40:01 -!- sellout [n=greg@12.230.92.3] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:40:19 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 10:42:18 vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 10:45:26 *tcr* discovers #0A0 10:45:39 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:18 *Xach* wonders if it's related to #0A00M 10:48:23 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:52:13 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:52:49 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has joined #lisp 10:53:39 Bah I was just bitten by (subtypep 'simple-base-string 'simple-vector) => NIL 10:53:49 that's *so* counterintuitive 10:55:10 it's burned in my mind from the days when i thought it would be "fast" to use svref everywhere that simple-vector can hold any object... 10:56:01 silly little xach.. 10:56:52 how's your offspring doing btw? 10:57:56 got this a few days ago: "Don't even think about it! Don't even think about it! Mom!!! He's thinking about it!" 10:58:22 *Xach* hopes they manage to get out of the nursery and tenured 11:00:06 /me is bitten by EQUAL operating on strings and bit-vectors, but not simple-vectors. This is hilarious. 11:00:17 randomized testing is fun :) 11:01:26 tcr: have you seen pfdietz's random compiler tester? 11:02:08 Only heard of it 11:02:19 I find the ansi-test suite a bit disorganized 11:02:25 ansi-tests/random-int-form.lsp 11:02:26 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:03:27 the random tester is a bit of a mess, but it's still a wonderful resource 11:03:30 tcr: so, drop editor-hints from clbuild, add named-readtables? 11:04:02 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:04:06 yeah 11:06:16 Xach: why is there a struct runtime_options instead of just using the serialized size_t array and the two corresponding functions? i'm looking for a use, but it seems to be only used for storing the values, which is what the serialized for does already... 11:08:32 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:08:49 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has joined #lisp 11:10:02 s/for/form/ 11:10:11 s/for/representation/ 11:10:23 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:10:31 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483EEDF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:43 piso: how long til xcl supports asdf? :-) 11:11:48 <_3b> tcr: tcr.sequence-iterators doc has a bunch of broken links 11:12:06 piso: FFI can wait; get asdf > ffi, imo 11:12:22 fusss: xcl currently bundles an old version of asdf 11:12:34 worksp 11:12:40 <_3b> tcr: also in dosequence, s/(or element)/(or elt)/ 11:12:40 it works for simple stuff 11:13:02 i have built an xcl version from about 10 days ago and there was no asdf file i could see 11:13:20 fusss: asdf.lisp should be there 11:13:46 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:13:48 piso: good times! 11:14:02 _3b: Yeah I know about the broken links 11:14:07 -!- pozic [n=pozic@unaffiliated/pozic] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:14:09 <_3b> tcr: and some way to loop until all sequences run out would be nice 11:14:35 fusss: support for more recent versions of asdf depends on xcl getting a better clos, which should happen shortly 11:14:53 cheers piso! 11:15:00 oh, it got recent changes, nice! 11:15:58 _3b: I'll upload the repository later today, you write one yourself then. :) 11:16:02 +can 11:17:07 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 11:18:14 pozic [n=pozic@unaffiliated/pozic] has joined #lisp 11:20:44 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:24:24 ruediger [n=ruediger@91.115.17.32] has joined #lisp 11:26:57 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:27:26 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has joined #lisp 11:35:40 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:36:20 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has joined #lisp 11:36:47 would be lovely if iterate:in-sequence was implemented using that 11:37:01 (I guess I just volunteered) 11:39:54 tcr: re the random-state discussion on sbcl-devel and Xof's objection, shouldn't it be possible to print the random-state by specifying the combination of the initial 32 bit integer thing, plus the number of iterations the state has gone through, assuming those were recorded? 11:42:48 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:42:50 only if the initial 32-bit integer thing is actually initial 11:43:04 I would also like to be able to initialize my RNG from 19937 bits of entropy 11:47:39 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [] 11:49:55 Guthur [i=c13dbf32@gateway/web/freenode/x-igngmbcblmwmvpgm] has joined #lisp 11:50:47 -!- sellout [n=greg@12.230.92.3] has quit [] 11:54:36 (apply #'max (mapcar #'read-from-string (list 1 2 3 4 .. limit))) <-- guess what this computes? :-D 11:55:03 code written under duress is funny 11:55:32 (hint, the list is always 1-based and is a sequence increasing by 1) 11:55:43 (length (list 1 ...)) :-P 11:56:52 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:57:18 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has joined #lisp 11:59:17 mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:59:24 -!- Guthur [i=c13dbf32@gateway/web/freenode/x-igngmbcblmwmvpgm] has quit ["Page closed"] 11:59:35 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:59:40 -!- mvillene1ve is now known as mvilleneuve 12:00:39 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:04:23 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:31 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 12:08:42 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:09:34 hallo lispers! 12:13:06 good morning there 12:13:59 hello Adlai 12:14:24 hey serichsen, pixel5 12:15:08 faux [n=user@82.182.78.98] has joined #lisp 12:18:26 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:19:02 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 12:23:29 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:16 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:29:22 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-57-73.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:30:33 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:33:04 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:38:22 attila_lendvai: what two corresponding functions? 12:39:18 Xach: the (de)serializer... but i wrote up a proposal on sbcl-devel since then 12:39:45 Xach: i'd need --dynamic-space-size support even when starting from an executable core... 12:40:58 attila_lendvai: I like using named fields in structs instead of indexes in arrays, generally. 12:41:55 also, it was the first thing I thought of, and I do not feel any particular paternal attachment to the implementation, as long as the functionality exists somehow. 12:42:02 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 12:42:13 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:42:31 my point was that once, when (de)serializing, you need to deal with indices anyway... and if it's done already, the named fields are not used otherwise, only when they are copied back to the global variables... 12:43:09 started doing that change, but then i gave up, because i realized i want more, so i wrote it up on sbcl-devel 12:43:19 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:43:50 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:44:54 -!- frodef [n=ffj@226.80-202-87.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:45:17 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-134.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:45:31 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:46:14 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:47:14 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 12:47:59 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has joined #lisp 12:48:45 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:49:58 good night folks 12:50:29 *fusss* highly recommends 21 Grams; great movie. Now watching Memento. 12:50:31 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"] 12:50:31 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:52:36 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:53:01 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 12:53:09 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441179.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 12:53:31 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:54:20 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-82-22.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 12:54:33 attila_lendvai: the array and indexes are a lower layer. 12:57:16 *Xach* wonders what's wrong with nikodemus's website 12:58:01 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:58:28 -!- pozic [n=pozic@unaffiliated/pozic] has left #lisp 12:58:29 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 12:59:03 carlocci 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[Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:03:12 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:03:20 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has joined #lisp 14:03:21 prip [n=_prip@host61-121-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:04:14 Vecklock [n=Vecklock@198.177.232.253] has joined #lisp 14:06:23 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:57 -!- ramus`_ [n=ramus@99.23.130.130] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:11:08 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:33 ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.141.65] has joined #lisp 14:13:31 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 14:13:54 lichtblau: Sequence-iterators is not extensible, it basically just provides DOSEQUENCE which works on lists and vectors. 14:14:30 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp095.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:14:56 So is there really a point in implementing iterate:in-sequence on top of that? 14:15:11 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has joined #lisp 14:15:12 [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.2] has joined #lisp 14:15:56 -!- arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:16:07 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 14:16:24 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:16:53 tcr: but you could make them generic (: 14:17:50 ejs [n=eugen@94.178.0.158] has joined #lisp 14:18:29 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-61-208.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:18:30 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:18:31 sykopomp` [n=root@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 14:18:53 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 14:20:00 -!- Guthur [i=c13db413@gateway/web/freenode/x-pjqinjdsnwiriinc] has quit ["Page closed"] 14:20:31 Ah hi pkhuong. We have to talk about the dx stuff later. I've got it on my list, but I'm not sure I'll come to it today. 14:21:06 I'm going to write a mail to the list asking for a list of occasions where one can expect dx allocation of functions 14:22:47 is c-l.net down for you too? 14:22:59 nope, but github is down. 14:23:10 Sorry false alarm, seems like c-l.net does not support https 14:23:20 github is down! No-one can do any work 14:23:23 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1AEA.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:23:48 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:23:56 -!- HET2 [n=diman@131.251.176.98] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:25:43 Brucio-8 [n=Brucio-8@f053043000.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:26:50 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@70.167.159.196] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:27:02 -!- Guest975` [n=user@72.14.228.137] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:29:26 single point of success! 14:29:38 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:30:10 it's OK, everyone can test my external-formats sbcl branch 14:31:04 http://rvw.doc.gold.ac.uk/sullivan/git/sbcl.git # go wild 14:31:43 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 14:32:02 tcr: last time I checked, iterate:in-sequence was implemented using ELT, which is not such a great idea for lists 14:33:53 colin__ [n=colin@114-44-227-179.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:04 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:12 -!- mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6E2B0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:36:37 -!- Brucio-8 [n=Brucio-8@f053043000.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:39:43 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 14:41:07 mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6E2B0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:10 s0ber [i=pie@220-136-225-231.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:16 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:25 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 14:46:48 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:48:01 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 14:50:00 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:50:20 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has joined #lisp 14:53:23 knobo [n=user@88.87.57.60] has joined #lisp 14:53:46 I was asked if there was any interesting "corner cases" in lisp. 14:54:35 (typep (make-array 0 :element-type nil) 'string) 14:54:38 hah! 14:54:43 Xof: i was in the middle of typing that. 14:54:55 on sbcl... 14:55:05 ... clearly mandated by the standard 14:55:20 then that's a bug in ccl 14:55:38 sure. I think you will find it will be marked WONTFIX 14:56:15 any reason why an array with element-type = nil should be a string? 14:56:33 because of the definition of string and the requirement that upgraded array element types form a lattice 14:56:47 you did ask for corner cases 14:57:05 yes 14:57:31 milanj [n=milan@93.86.215.23] has joined #lisp 14:58:23 I actualy did not know what corner cases are before today. 14:58:34 are there any uses of (array nil)? 14:58:36 no 14:58:46 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 14:59:18 CL got on fine for 10-20 years (depending on how you count) before anyone noticed that it was required that they exist 14:59:25 ah. "The type nil is a subtype of every type" 14:59:26 dlowe, memo from gigamonkey: Whoops. Thanks. 15:00:04 lispworks even refuses to make such an array 15:02:24 Has anyone written a upgraded-sequence-type? So (make-sequence (upgraded-sequence-type seq) n) works? 15:02:52 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:03:11 pcl did not mention upgraded-array-element-type :( 15:03:12 Guthur [i=c13dbf2b@gateway/web/freenode/x-jvgnrmfzrbzooaps] has joined #lisp 15:03:40 did it mention :element-type? 15:04:23 in brief 15:04:31 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:04:50 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-109-123.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:11 stassats: yes 15:05:57 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0681.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:06:01 so, (array nil) was discovered by pfdietz's test suit 15:06:54 -!- Guthur [i=c13dbf2b@gateway/web/freenode/x-jvgnrmfzrbzooaps] has quit [Client Quit] 15:08:33 tcr: no, but I wrote make-sequence-like 15:09:42 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:10:19 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has joined #lisp 15:10:23 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:10:54 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 15:10:58 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-109-123.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 15:14:12 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:14:49 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has joined #lisp 15:15:01 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:03 Xof: Thanks that looks better than my kludge involving subtypep 15:24:36 kefka_the_great [n=user@75.101.205.165] has joined #lisp 15:25:09 -!- kefka_the_great is now known as kefka 15:25:29 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:26:39 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:28:30 redblue [i=star@ppp076.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:29:00 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:29:34 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 15:29:37 hello 15:31:05 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:10 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 15:36:55 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 15:38:54 -!- tychoish [n=tychoish@97.107.134.101] has quit [Client Quit] 15:41:06 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has quit [] 15:41:45 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 15:42:07 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-30-219.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:43:01 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:45:22 ruepel0r [n=rue@77-21-138-135-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:47:04 Is nil a supertype of string? 15:47:25 no, a subtype 15:47:53 Is it reasonable to expect that ever (> (length list) most-positive-fixnum) ? 15:48:40 all types are supertypes of nil. 15:48:53 acording to clhs 15:49:31 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:49:31 right 15:49:55 tcr: CLISP/amd64, in a couple years (assuming length returns). 15:50:09 borism [n=boris@195.50.205.198] has joined #lisp 15:50:37 pkhuong: why specifically clisp? 15:50:58 it has small fixnum 15:52:52 while t is a supertype of everyting.. 15:53:55 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 15:54:27 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 15:54:27 embarasing that I have not studied these parts of cl before 15:54:28 actually, (length (time (make-list (1+ most-positive-fixnum)))) Real time: 2.661282 sec. 16777216 15:54:31 on 32-bit clisp 15:54:49 oh right, it's very small on 32 b too. 15:55:01 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:55:55 yes, but I assume the address space to store your list in is also a lot smaller on 32 bit as well 15:56:21 morphling [n=stefan@89.15.143.177] has joined #lisp 15:57:29 fiveop_ [n=fiveop@92.229.124.143] has joined #lisp 15:57:56 dan_b: 24+1 bit on 32b, 48+1 on 64b. 15:59:11 i wonder, why clisp uses 24-bit fixnum 16:00:57 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 16:02:50 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 16:02:52 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:03 Hello all. 16:03:11 *nyef* starts paying attention again. 16:03:43 oh hi nyef 16:03:45 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:04:23 stassats: easier tagging 16:04:34 (I imagine, I've not looked at CLISP code) 16:05:14 Can I read about the design choice of making nil a subtype of everything somewhere? 16:05:59 knobo: The design choice of including an explicit "bottom" type in the system? 16:06:20 nyef: yes 16:06:40 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:06:48 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.231.88] has quit ["off"] 16:08:48 I'm at adding the possibility to modify a sequence while iterating through it, and I'm confronted with the following design issue: I think, I could make it work that in (dosequence (element *some-sequence*) (setf element (1+ element))) would increment each element in *SOME-SEQUENCE* 16:09:08 but that's kind of confusing, isn't it? 16:09:32 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:09:49 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has joined #lisp 16:09:59 particularly if element isn't a number 16:10:33 oh wait, I was confused already :) 16:11:33 well let's assume *some-sequence* is a vector consisting of numbers 16:11:38 actually it's not really that confusing 16:11:49 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:11:54 tcr: Modifying the elements of SEQUENCE without changing the identity of their places or their ordering isn't particularly confusing to me... Changing their ordering or the identity of their places would confuse the heck out of me. 16:12:22 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229241239.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:12:37 nyef: I mean isn't it confusing on a syntactical level 16:13:23 an alternative way would be something one the line of (dosequence (element *some-sequence* nil :setter frob) (setf (frob) (1+ element)) ;; the nil is due to &optional result 16:13:34 s/one/on/ 16:14:11 (dosequence (element *some-sequence* nil :setter store) (store (1+ element)) 16:14:20 Honestly, I'd rather have the place, but possibly rename the macro to with-sequence-elements or something. 16:14:26 -!- amaron [n=amaron@93.86.161.198] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:14:39 yeah, shouldn't dosequence between analogous to dolist? 16:14:44 It's analagous to with-slots anyway. 16:15:32 At the moment it doesn't do that, but it's useful. Otherwise you have to write lots of (setf (elt ... idx) ...) and that sucks for lists 16:15:54 peddie [n=peddie@c-67-180-249-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:57 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 16:17:05 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.2] has quit ["  ,     . http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/10/31/633610479183753742-ha] 16:17:46 ... Umm... Hrm. I'm -not- liking with-interrupt-bindings. 16:17:58 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:18:00 For two reasons. 16:18:19 First, there's nothing there for serve-event, which is disaster in the making. 16:18:29 bah you're taking my precious brain-storming area 16:18:49 Second, there's nothing there for users to add their own bindings to protect their state. 16:20:20 tcr: is your dosequence code up yet? 16:21:05 piso: Only a description of the API: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/sequence-iterators.html 16:21:58 but I think I decided. I'll add an :iterator keyword to name the iterator explicitly, and you can then do (setf (iterator-name) ...) to store into the sequence 16:22:26 clhs read-sequence 16:22:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_seq.htm 16:23:08 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:23:53 I wish clhs had thought a little more about read-sequence 16:24:32 I'm just thinking that a read-without-blocking function would be useful. 16:24:38 I get the impression it was a late addition 16:25:12 nyef: yes, that's the most obvious flaw. I cringe just a little every time I use read-sequence 16:25:16 note e.g. no support for it in the gray streams proposal (iirc) 16:25:39 jasber [n=bjasper@173.26.98.219] has joined #lisp 16:25:52 -!- yacin [n=yacin@lawn-143-215-206-166.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:26:42 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 16:27:02 ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-17-5.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 16:27:07 Not even thinking that, but... calling into serve-event whenever a read would block is stupid. The main use is when reading from standard input at the REPL. Why not re-code the REPL to poll serve-event and use a non-blocking READ until it gets a complete form or two? 16:27:24 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:27:28 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:55 Once that much is done, we can then take out the call into serve-event from fd-streams and then /proc and /sys filesystem reads will work properly on linux. 16:28:00 -!- colin__ [n=colin@114-44-227-179.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:28:21 And we'll have less brain damage with respect to network I/O. 16:28:56 Good evening! 16:29:08 Hello beach. 16:29:43 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-128.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:30:15 would the non-blocking read require ioctl'ing stdin? can you do that? does it even work right on some platforms (e.g. I think stdin + select/poll is broken on some (all?) versions of Darwin) 16:30:16 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:30:25 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 16:30:43 [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.2] has joined #lisp 16:31:09 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:31:54 Oh, right. And the critical problem is that sysread-may-block-p is based on a flawed assumption. 16:31:58 HG` [n=HG@xdsleq114.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:33:20 Next you'll be telling me that not all systems populate out the siginfo_t parameter for sigaction-style handlers. 16:33:32 *dan_b* laughs 16:33:54 flawed assumption? 16:34:40 froydnj: That select() says that an input event is available on a file descriptor when there is more data or an EOF to be read and not otherwise. 16:34:56 There are known cases where this is incorrect on Linux. 16:35:10 serichse1 [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d0678c8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:17 ah, this is the problem with /proc/**/*, then 16:35:21 Yes. 16:35:50 I think there are causes with network sockets where it may not be true, too 16:35:51 For /proc/whatever, the input-available event is that the file contents have -changed- and should be re-read. 16:36:09 though I may be making that up 16:36:11 But there is always data available until EOF. 16:36:48 and detecting input-available-p would be trickier 16:37:14 Anyway, the specific siginfo_t field I was wondering about was si_code. 16:37:15 Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has joined #lisp 16:39:51 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdsleq114.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:40:14 Also, note that you can't change stdin to be non-blocking. 16:40:14 Yeah, input-available-p is trickier, but if we re-define the interface to explicitly handle non-blocking I/O... 16:40:23 Rather, you can, but if you do so, your software is really broken 16:40:40 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:40:57 because (UNIX sucks!) O_NONBLOCK is a property of the file description not the file descriptor. 16:41:14 Ugh. 16:41:34 Lots of software does it anyways, of course. But I've run into this bug twice, in real life, in two different pieces of software. 16:41:38 Does this apply if we open /dev/tty ? 16:42:02 No, every time you call open on anything, including /dev/tty, you get a new file description. 16:42:26 Okay, so that's one down. Next, does it matter if stdin is a socket? 16:42:31 (Or a pipe?) 16:42:41 matter in what sense? 16:43:03 ... I'm not sure, actually. 16:43:21 The case where I ran into trouble is with stdout, actually; I had two programs writing to the same pipe. 16:43:33 Some part of me is saying "maybe we can just throw threads at the problem", and some part is wincing at the idea. 16:44:02 one changed it to nonblocking mode, and the other one was quite surprised to see its writes fail with EAGAIN 16:44:09 Oh, ouch. 16:44:36 drgnvale [n=acristin@209.16.73.144] has joined #lisp 16:45:32 Also, on windows, you can't change existing streams to nonblocking, so you can't even get into this trouble. 16:45:53 You basically have to use a thread to read/write the stdio streams if you want to integrate into an event loop 16:45:55 Hands up, who would miss serve-event anyway if it was dropped entirely? 16:46:02 No, windows has its own set of troubles. 16:46:12 lichtblau: I would. 16:46:33 slime users on non-threaded platforms probably 16:46:34 (Or put differently: Had iolib been around in 1999, and had there been native threads in CMUCL, would wnewman have kept serve-event in the first place?) 16:46:41 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d0678c8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:46:42 serve-event might be nice if it wasn't so impossible to understand when it's going to call your code 16:47:06 -!- morphling [n=stefan@89.15.143.177] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:47:20 At the same time, serve-event is horribly broken on the platform I'd miss it on, hence new-serve-event and its window-function hack. 16:48:04 Okay, and I'd probably be upset if it disappeared on *nix as well, just for the sake of existing network software such as the bots here. 16:48:07 oh yeah, of course windows has its own set of problems. I'm just saying: the reliable way to deal with stdio streams in a non-blocking way on /both/ unix and windows is to use a thread for it. 16:48:34 (that sucks, yes) 16:48:59 Heh. And, speaking of threads, does anyone want to talk about PCLSRing, EXIT_UNWIND and UNWIND-PROTECT? 16:49:35 So after reading that blog post, I was indeed wondering why not just unwind every thread you're not going to keep. 16:50:22 -!- knobo [n=user@88.87.57.60] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:50:51 sure, if you had a safe point to unwind at 16:50:53 Because you can't specify if an unwind is an exit unwind or not? 16:50:55 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 16:51:01 Greetings. 16:51:13 (and if you have no unwind-protects with side effects) 16:51:17 And, yes, there's also the whole "safe point" issue. 16:51:43 Because an asynchronous unwind event is not safe at all. 16:51:45 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 16:51:50 Hence PCLSRing in general. 16:52:05 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:52:10 Solaris has a forkall function -- you could actually fork every thread in your process, and then just send an unwind signal to all but one. 16:52:14 General question: Does common lisp have a fast way to tell if a sequence is a prefix of another sequence, aside from SEARCH? 16:52:27 for them to deal with in whatever safe way they can. :) 16:52:27 drgnvale: mismatch 16:52:37 drgnvale: alexandria:begins-with-subseq, or yeah mismatch 16:52:41 drgnvale: it's not especially concise 16:52:53 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:52:59 (The classic example of not safe at all is, of course, file descriptor leakage from with-open-file due to catching an unwind while returning from OPEN before saving the descriptor anywhere.) 16:53:05 In a macro lambda list, if I mix &rest and &key like ((&rest initargs &key key1 key2) &body body), the initargs are limited to the defined keys and any specified keys are in the initargs list but not directly accessible. Is this correct? This seems to be how it works, but I'm not sure I understand it correctly. 16:53:19 drgnvale: alexandria:starts-with-subseq 16:53:24 Thanks you two; I don't care if the api is consice or not, as long as it doesn't spend a lot of time doing it 16:53:36 tmh: "directly" accessible? 16:53:55 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 16:53:55 tmh: they are accessible as key1 or key2 16:53:57 tmh: You have direct access to key1 and key2 as lexical variables. There's also :allow-other-keys and &allow-other-keys to consider. 16:53:57 Xach: Using key1 or key2. 16:54:14 begins-with-subseq is a no-brainer with sequence-iterators. See the example in http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/sequence-iterators.html#DOSEQUENCES* 16:55:19 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:55:50 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has joined #lisp 16:55:58 Ok, I need to experiment some more, I'm doing something wrong. 16:55:59 Going back to fork, you also have that distinction of "exit unwind due to thread kill request" and "exit unwind due to having forked and some other thread now has responsibility for cleaning up any external protocol state". 16:58:41 reav [n=reav@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 16:59:35 nyef: Do you have a case in mind where that might be important? 16:59:45 And some part of me is going "who cares? we can just use extra threads on win32 and even Fare can't yell at us because win32 doesn't even have fork(2)." 17:00:28 foom: From Fare's article, starting at "And of course, once yuo gotten the PCLSRing itself correct". 17:01:10 Err... s/yuo/you/. 17:02:33 Basically, "we've just forked, and we're the child, so we need to discard all of our transactions and close our connections to the database, but we need to not actually tell the database this because the parent is going to still be using these resources and can still finish the transactions we're abandoning." 17:03:50 Undead_Lisper [n=lispzomb@pool-173-76-29-230.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:48 ah, yes indeed. 17:09:35 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:09:40 blitz_ [n=blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 17:09:49 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has joined #lisp 17:11:19 nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has joined #lisp 17:12:31 tcr: re sequence iterators, how strongly opposed are you to runtime compilation? 17:13:59 seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:14 pkhuong: speak up (I'll be at dinner right now though, but I'll read the back log) 17:15:28 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:17:51 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:18:04 if we were only looking for nested iteration, folds would be good enough. The problem is when we want parallel iteration (or more complex patterns). But really, the problem with parallel iteration is that the number of possibilities grows geometrically. 17:19:33 -!- reav [n=reav@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:20:30 That's why we go for an explicit inversion of control with iterators (to keep the number of code patterns down). But if we just compile parallel (or more complex patterns) folds as needed, things are much better. 17:20:32 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94.178.0.158] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:56 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:21:19 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has joined #lisp 17:23:26 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:23:28 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 17:23:29 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:50 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-kcrlpkrsunuplztn] has joined #lisp 17:26:03 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:27:24 -!- phy1729 [n=mmartin@unaffiliated/phy1729] has quit [] 17:27:47 reaver_ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 17:28:24 Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-086-207.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 17:29:29 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-235.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 17:30:39 hello 17:30:40 lukego [n=lukegorr@84.72.45.92] has joined #lisp 17:30:44 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@84.72.45.92] has quit [Client Quit] 17:30:45 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:31:58 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.215.23] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:33:21 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:34:18 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-134.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 17:36:08 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:36:59 -!- reaver_ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit ["powering down and out"] 17:37:16 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:39:18 brill [n=brill@0x5da22faa.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.hrnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:40:54 ubii [n=ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:04 -!- brill [n=brill@0x5da22faa.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.hrnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 17:48:08 mismatch is disappointingly slow; I wonder if I'm doing something wrong 17:48:55 paste away 17:49:03 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@88.204.173.229] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:49:28 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-086-207.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:51:18 http://paste.lisp.org/+1WCZ I forgot to tell it to paste in here 17:51:47 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:52:15 If I use compare-array3 as the function for the "Do this way too many times" test, it comes out to about 30s, vs 4.5 for my horrible looking homebrew solution 17:53:39 drgnvale: are you really comparing octet vectors? 17:54:50 Yes; the actual application is a file carver. It's looking for occurances of short byte strings in disk images 17:55:04 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:56:09 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has joined #lisp 17:56:31 drgnvale: (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (0)) is only valid for an octet vector of length 0. 17:56:40 drgnvale: what implementation are you using? 17:56:55 Lispworks; I'll change that to (*), I think 17:57:07 drgnvale: I was just looking at http://www-igm.univ-mlv.fr/~lecroq/string/node18.html today, maybe it would help. 17:57:10 I've never had a need to declare types before, so I'm winging it 17:57:38 if you want it to be really fast, use sbcl :) 17:57:42 and maybe a different algorithm... 17:57:43 I'm using the quick search algorithm, next node over 17:59:10 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:59:20 The bottom line is that you still need a memcmp analogue, and I'd just like to get that as fast as I can 18:01:15 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:12 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 18:04:15 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:09:00 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:09:33 -!- borism [n=boris@195.50.205.198] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:12:24 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:26 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:15:46 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 18:16:17 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:16:35 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 18:16:35 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:16:56 pkhuong: So where does run-time compilation come in? 18:17:55 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has joined #lisp 18:21:21 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@68.100.82.124] has joined #lisp 18:21:32 tcr: where you compile parallel folds as needed 18:23:23 drgnvale: you could use some CS condiment on your pattern matcher there 18:24:45 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85.127.20.203] has quit ["[IRSSI]"] 18:25:38 -!- HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:26:01 drgnvale: rabin karp is simple. 18:26:40 But thats not a pattern matcher; it's a reimplementation of memcmp 18:26:45 pkhuong: As I've got no clue, I don't think it's me who will write that stuff; is there anything particular I have to keep in mind to make this doable in future? 18:26:55 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:27:03 I'll look into rabin karp; I skipped over it and went to the B-M based algorithms 18:29:15 tcr: only provide a do-sequences parallel iteration construct? 18:29:21 alexshendi [n=chatzill@dslb-188-098-111-245.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:55 pkhuong: Is http://www-igm.univ-mlv.fr/~lecroq/string/node5.html#SECTION0050 the karp-rabin you were suggesting? You still need a memcmp function for that 18:30:46 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:31:02 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-203.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:31:05 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:07 sure you still need to compare strings. The expected number of string-string comparison becomes constant instead of linear. 18:31:39 compare-array is the memcmp 18:31:44 Its not the overall search algorithm 18:32:06 -!- HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 18:32:07 Performing an operation one thousandth as often is just as good if not better than performing it a thousand times as fast. 18:32:32 I don't think I'm being clear 18:33:24 Let me annotate my paste with the string search algorithm I'm using so that it becomes crystal clear that compare-array is what I'm using in place of memcmp in any of the algorithms available on the exact string matching algorithms web book 18:33:39 drgnvale: sure, you want to make the operation of comparing sub-vectors faster. First I'd focus on making its speed less important. 18:33:53 I'm already using one of the faster B-M based searches 18:33:57 (Then, I'd write the comparison in SSE) 18:34:09 But my portability :( 18:34:13 how about just calling out to memcmp. :) 18:34:20 that's *already* written in SSE 18:35:07 I'll try that; I don't know what the overhead on my implementation's FFI is like, so this is a good time to find out 18:35:08 but, it should be possible to get at least almost-as-good performance from lisp code. 18:36:17 Oh, speaking of FFI overhead... do I remember rightly that SBCL doesn't currently stack-switch on FFI on x86oids? 18:36:29 I don't think it does, no. 18:36:39 nyef: right 18:37:06 How costly would it be to make it stack-switch? 18:37:40 (There's a scenario I have in mind where it'd be useful, but I don't know how many of the assumptions involved are correct.) 18:37:45 It's my understanding that doing so has pretty serious implicit hardware overheads. 18:37:57 But I'm not sure of that 18:38:11 foom: why? cache misses? 18:38:31 pkhuong: Probably register file invalidation for the top N stack locations or something. 18:38:52 because of the magic stuff that x86 does behind your back to make it go fast. 18:38:54 nyef: I thought that came for free from store-to-load forwarding. 18:39:13 Sorry, I just have a vague recollection of this, I might be totally wrong, and if I'm right I don't have the words to back it up 18:39:30 I have no idea, really. My knowledge of x86oid performance tuning seems to date back to the original pentium and hasn't really been updated since. 18:40:07 Could write a ubenchmark, but if that were an issue, then any C function with large auto storage would be penalised... and that'd get people complaining 18:42:57 good point. 18:43:29 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 18:45:32 marioxcc [n=user@201.132.48.133] has joined #lisp 18:46:54 it's really rather irritating how non-obvious optimizing for modern processors is. 18:47:48 I find it annoying as hell that sbcl notes about its inability to allocate dx-declared stuff even on low speed settings 18:48:22 tcr: don't declare dx then ;) 18:48:29 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:45 pkhuong: Not always an option given system-provided (and library-provided) macros. 18:49:05 Allegro is quite good at allocating functions on the stack 18:49:25 the current behaviour is only viable in an sbcl-only world 18:52:49 Futbolista [n=n@171.231.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:53:44 -!- Futbolista [n=n@171.231.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:54:55 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:55:28 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:58:34 levy [n=levy@89.223.207.136] has joined #lisp 18:59:22 evening 18:59:57 sayyestolife [n=jot_n@79.136.60.147] has joined #lisp 19:00:11 -!- marioxcc [n=user@201.132.48.133] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:00:32 marioxcc [n=user@201.132.48.133] has joined #lisp 19:00:43 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:00:57 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:01:44 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.93.230] has joined #lisp 19:01:51 hi levy 19:02:50 *levy* partial evals again 19:03:31 Thank you all for the help; using sbcl I'm only about twice as slow as scalpel. 19:03:40 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.201] has joined #lisp 19:05:27 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:06:19 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.2] has quit ["  ,     . http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/10/31/633610479183753742-ha] 19:06:21 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.141.65] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:06:41 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:08:04 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:09:13 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-206-77-107.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:09:36 emmy [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-qvxmsjvctuhjxwfv] has joined #lisp 19:09:36 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:09:41 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 19:11:19 emmmm [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-ttjcvjloxzitithx] has joined #lisp 19:13:47 tychoish [n=tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:43 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:15:11 ASau [n=user@85.141.215.63] has joined #lisp 19:15:49 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:16:55 a SUBSEQ implemented on top of my sequence-iterators is about half as slow on vectors (0.5 vs 0.3), and 10x as slow on lists (0.1 vs 0.01) 19:17:32 half as slow as in twice as fast? 19:18:16 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:19:22 erm, oops, I mean half as fast 19:21:19 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:22:38 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:24:33 -!- ASau [n=user@85.141.215.63] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:24:54 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:26:04 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 19:26:24 -!- fiveop_ [n=fiveop@92.229.124.143] has quit ["humhum"] 19:27:33 -!- emmy [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-qvxmsjvctuhjxwfv] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:29:09 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 19:29:09 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:29:24 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-30-219.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:29:31 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:29:35 -!- emmmm is now known as emmy 19:30:33 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 19:30:43 Edward__ [n=Ed@90.3.67.225] has joined #lisp 19:31:11 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:31:12 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:31:49 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:32:52 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 19:33:36 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:34:48 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.32.25] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:35:22 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 19:38:11 -!- faux [n=user@82.182.78.98] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:39:15 -!- ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.93.230] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:39:29 -!- FareWell is now known as Fare 19:41:42 -!- ol3 [n=user@82.113.121.159] has left #lisp 19:42:18 -!- Sergio`_ [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:44:35 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-22-18.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:50:13 Fare: it's a bit annoying that process-command-line-options uses only the first entry in the specification as key to store the parsed value, but when printing one usually prefers the short form first, so all our spec's start with the short version. so, we are full of (getf options :s) and friends, which doesn't help code readability... put it somewhere down on your TODO... :) 19:52:06 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:52:19 ASau [n=user@85.141.215.63] has joined #lisp 19:52:40 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has left #lisp 19:53:14 anyone knows how sb-impl::apply supposed to work? 19:53:26 -!- Undead_Lisper [n=lispzomb@pool-173-76-29-230.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:53:29 to me the implementation seems to be an infinite recursion 19:53:59 I might be missing the point though 19:54:52 see the comment that is sitting exactly above the defun (in my version of the file anyway) 19:55:16 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 19:55:16 -!- ASau [n=user@85.141.215.63] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:55:16 Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has joined #lisp 19:55:32 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:55:46 it is indeed interesting that it's not a one-liner 19:56:54 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:57:04 if you copy paste the code as apply2 19:57:11 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-98-245-87-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:13 and call it, then it's infinite recursion 19:57:33 it just breaks my partial evaluator 19:58:23 what's the point of that code? how is that used? if there's a separate transformation to actually magically compile a call to apply... 19:59:03 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:59:33 (defvar *foo*) (defun bar (x y z) (funcall *foo* x y z)) 19:59:42 (let ((*foo* #'apply)) (bar)) 19:59:53 Krystof: yeah, but why isn't it a one-liner like funcall? 19:59:56 ...which is very magical, because it even picks up (funcall 'apply '+ (list 1 2 3)) 20:00:23 ahh, i guess it's a trivial funcall elimination 20:01:39 lichtblau: I'm not sure. If I had to guess, it would be because in about 1982 there was an efficiency concern 20:01:40 -!- sayyestolife [n=jot_n@79.136.60.147] has quit [] 20:01:41 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 20:01:41 levy: my M-. shows a (DEFINE-SOURCE-TRANSFORM APPLY) in src/compiler/srctran.lisp 20:02:24 fe[nl]ix, what I do care about the code there, not the transformations 20:02:32 because those are invisible to my partial eval library 20:02:34 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:02:46 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 20:02:47 it's inlining apply 20:02:57 why are you trying to inline CL primitives? 20:03:12 are you going to inline + too? 20:03:24 Krystof, surely not 20:03:26 or CAR? 20:03:27 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.93.163] has joined #lisp 20:03:52 I was hoping for apply just work out of its source by not inlining the other primitives 20:04:31 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 20:04:41 I also must be very careful what is evaled at partial eval time and obviously I can't eval all apply calls 20:04:43 Krystof: steady steps towards being able to drop our sbcl ctor hack by partial eval-ing an (apply 'make-instance :some constants... ;) 20:04:50 in contrast with any car, cdr calls 20:05:48 these are the current functions called on constant values at partial eval time: eq eql not null atom car cdr consp first second third fourth length char= zerop < <= = >= > - + * / 1+ 1- 20:05:55 Psittacidae_Guy [n=Dave@pool-173-76-29-230.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:15 attila_lendvai: have you tried working with nikodemus' patch, and my description of how to generalize it? 20:06:16 -!- emmy [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-ttjcvjloxzitithx] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:06:25 obviously there are others, but I'm aiming at make-instance now 20:06:51 -!- Psittacidae_Guy [n=Dave@pool-173-76-29-230.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:07:50 (though I think nikodemus' patch was enough to subsume your ctor hack) 20:08:15 Krystof: not yet, too many things ahead of it on the TODO. levy works on the p-e for fun... but there are some promising results that suggests that it could supersede easily the ctor optimizations (modulo dependency issues) 20:08:32 Psittacidae_Guy [n=Dave@pool-173-76-29-230.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:52 some old pastes: http://www.google.com/search?q=partial+eval+site%3Apaste.lisp.org&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a 20:10:24 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:12:24 while printing, you prefer the short form first??? 20:12:36 attila_lendvai, while printing where, anyway? 20:12:36 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:12:56 -!- sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:13:04 Fare, --help 20:13:13 Fare, yes, to be horizontally aligned 20:13:15 sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 20:13:17 maybe the solution would be that with the proper flag, printing picks the first one that has the shortest length 20:13:37 oh. 20:13:45 Fare, that would also be ok I think 20:13:51 easier to read 20:14:00 so for --help. Hum. 20:14:05 Lemme think about it... 20:15:08 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:16:32 levy: since I don't like &optional + &key is it OK if I change the signature of the function show-option-help to have &key stream sort-names ? 20:16:45 do you have a better name than sort-names? 20:16:57 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:57 I assume you are the only users -- only users so far, anyway. 20:17:02 (besides me) 20:17:04 "in-order"? 20:17:05 Fare: when was backward incompatibility a problem for us? ;) 20:17:23 just giving you heads up 20:17:31 nyef, too ambiguous 20:17:52 nyef, thanks for reading my blog post attentively. It makes me feel I didn't wholly waste my time writing it. 20:17:58 (thanks to foom, too) 20:18:16 Fare, sounds ok to me 20:18:16 and I don't care about the default 20:18:41 Fare, I read that too, and realized that how little I know about those issues... 20:18:41 Fare: Thanks for making the post. It's an interesting issue. 20:19:23 yeah, was an eye opener for me too... but then it started to burn, so i looked away at the end... :) 20:19:24 Especially when thinking about SBCL/Win32 and threading. 20:19:33 (Or even just C-c handling.) 20:20:37 what's a fast way to convert an int to a single-float in sbcl 20:20:44 xristos: FLOAT ? 20:20:47 clhs float 20:20:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_float.htm 20:21:05 float allocates a lot 20:21:24 It does? 20:21:26 100megs per minute if i call it a lot 20:21:45 You'd have to define "a lot" for that measure to be meaningful. 20:21:50 And on what platform? 20:22:03 osx intel 20:22:20 Single-floats are heap objects on 32-bit targets. 20:22:34 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@88.73.195.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:23:00 a lot as in 120k times/sec 20:23:55 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:23:58 xristos, then don't do it. 20:24:26 and/or do it but consume the object before you need to box it. 20:24:34 Hrm. 20:24:36 the fastest way is to do it on specialised vectors through SSE ;) 20:24:49 Well, there's definately some transforms in the compiler for FLOAT. 20:25:45 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:26:33 levy, attila_lendvai your wish is granted - beware the API change. 20:26:49 I only tested the code once, at my REPL. 20:26:53 Umm... And the VOPs work out to a couple instructions at most, so you're probably paying for unboxing the integer or boxing the float. 20:26:58 Fare, thanks, no problem, should work fine 20:27:14 And if you can get inlined you can avoid that cost. 20:28:13 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:28:56 yacin [n=yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 20:29:54 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 20:30:45 Fare: So, while I'm thinking it, do you have any suggestions for dealing with so-called "exit unwinds" when a thread is being destroyed? Technically, they're legal by EXIT-EXTENT:MINIMAL, but not EXIT-EXTENT:MEDIUM which is what everybody implements. 20:30:58 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@wsip-70-167-159-196.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:29 (At least, I think that's the way round it is.) 20:31:35 milanj [n=milan@93.86.215.23] has joined #lisp 20:32:44 proun [n=proun@cpe-76-180-87-229.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:36:40 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:36:47 uh, what's exit-extent:foo ??? 20:36:51 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:38:20 CLHS issue writup. 20:38:49 The official writeup is exit-extent:minimal, but the :medium options is described there and is what almost everyone implements. 20:41:01 Fare: btw, that's why i almost almost always start out with &key, and even if i need speed i resolve that with inlining 20:41:27 sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:43 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:41:53 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:41:54 Actually, I'm not sure how "normal" host runtime unwind semantics map to Lisp. Some of the protocol specifications don't appear to even discuss the possibility of starting an unwind from an unwind cleanup. 20:41:56 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has quit [] 20:41:59 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 20:42:41 in C++, I believe it's a call to abort() if you throw out of a destructor. 20:43:08 rather: destructor...that is called during stack unwinding. 20:43:16 foom: I'm more thinking of throwing out of a finally. 20:43:32 C++ destructors *are* finally. 20:43:37 Ugh. 20:43:46 C++ doesn't have a finally keyword :-) 20:44:08 Oh, right. Their model is catch-and-re-throw. 20:44:20 that's only for "except" 20:44:31 for "finally", it doesn't catch 20:44:31 *attila_lendvai* remembers the fun he had with macros and templated destructors in stack allocated objects to simulate unwind-protect in C++... 20:44:47 *nyef* shakes his head. 20:45:13 jeti [n=jeti@p548EC22A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:13 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:45:15 If you have an object with a destructor, that destructor is called whether you return normally out of the scope, or throw out, on the way to the catch-point. 20:45:33 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:45:34 exceptions in C++ is kind of broken really. 20:45:52 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 20:46:06 it was in the NewFS code for BeOS, i rewrote the file handling... it had really cool features, like an automatic dialog to delete half-copied files... but for some reason they were reluctant to include it. no idea why... :) 20:46:26 ...most users used it instead of the stock one, though. 20:46:36 Heh. 20:46:40 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:46:47 Madsy: meh...not really. 20:46:53 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:48:15 i even had a templated magic LaunchInNewThread(arg1, arg2 ...) although it only worked up to arg4, due to exponential code size issues... :) but i guess that's enough of C++ horror for tonight... :) 20:48:42 attila_lendvai: You'll be happy to know that C++0x supports vararg templates. :) 20:48:57 ahh, i missed the function pointer from that call... *grin* 20:48:59 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.93.163] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:49:03 foom: Well, not broken. But they added a bunch of features which are mostly useless. 20:49:23 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.93.163] has joined #lisp 20:49:25 Declaring functions as no-throw, uncaught_exception(), etc 20:49:27 foom: you had a typo there... :D 20:50:05 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-17-5.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:50:05 "varargh"? 20:50:24 So, backing up a bit, another interesting question is what would be involved in adding -general- PCLSRing support to a Lisp system? 20:50:35 -!- mnl is now known as thehacker 20:50:50 nyef: making your own CPU ? 20:51:03 rewriting it with no side effects? 20:51:13 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 20:51:27 -!- jeti [n=jeti@p548EC22A.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 20:51:38 fe[nl]ix: Overkill, particularly given that you can define a virtual CPU... 20:51:57 but yes, you lose a soon as you invoke the OS anyway, it seems 20:52:16 Do you really lose there, and if so why? 20:53:10 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:53:30 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 20:54:42 the OS does not support PCLSRing, but schedules all runnable entities and contains manually-allocated-and-released resources. lose. 20:54:42 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:54:44 Of course, just thinking about what's required for handling PCLSRing for "asynchronous unwinds" with respect to WITH-OPEN-FILE is enchantingly nasty. 20:54:59 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:55:09 that's a nice example, yes 20:55:25 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 20:55:42 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:55:53 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 20:56:11 -But-, your critical region starts with the return from open(2), and ends when the file stream has been bound into the variable used to refer to it in the UNWIND-PROTECT. 20:56:36 (Well, and the unwind-protect has been entered.) 20:56:53 then again, the wise database people must have figured this all out in order to write those scarily mission-critical enterprise things they write 20:57:15 -!- thehacker [n=mnl@pD9E6E2B0.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 20:58:17 -!- dan_b [n=dan@82-68-20-86.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:58:19 And that's looking at a coarse level. There's a critical region from the return from open(2) until the file descriptor has been stored in the stream object around just closing the file descriptor. From there, the stream needs to be closed instead... 20:59:25 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:59:31 But arbitrary invariants... That gets nastier. 20:59:31 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:59:37 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:00:08 OS-level uninterruptable region support would help a lot 21:00:36 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 21:00:49 Yeah, but they're not necessary. 21:01:03 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:01:23 As, so long as you can -defer- interrupts, you can simulate it. 21:01:27 (what usually happens instead, of cause, is that such uninterruptable routines somehow make their way into the kernel) 21:01:34 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.201] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:01:56 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.152] has joined #lisp 21:02:30 cmm: if you only do async read/writes you can get PCLSRing. 21:02:33 ah, right, transactions 21:02:52 (or syscalls that are guaranteed to return immediately) 21:03:00 in the AMOP book they specialize the apply-method generic function, which is responsible of applying apropriate method. how can i do something like that? 21:03:06 nyef: so, I wonder if the actual open() call itself is guaranteed to be atomic (that is, interruptions occur either before or after it). I think not. 21:03:06 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 21:03:17 I mean, it won't make an FD and then abort *within* the kernel on linux. 21:03:31 but it might end up returning from the kernel but not the function call...or something like that. 21:03:35 nyef, you'll need a partial order of safe-points -- something that generalizes the partial order of locks 21:03:35 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 21:04:41 Mmm... Right. 21:04:44 so you generalize SBCL's pseudo-atomic to work in a wider range of cases. 21:05:03 ol3` [n=user@82.113.121.155] has joined #lisp 21:05:04 without-interrupts, more likely, but yeah. 21:05:11 taking a point in that partial order as a parameter, or something 21:06:45 you *can* actually do that within POSIX, since it has a callback that occurs before forking. Grab a lock around "open-and-store-fd" which the pre-fork callback also grabs. 21:06:56 salva [n=salva@91.117.11.105] has joined #lisp 21:06:56 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:07:01 then for async stuff your "signal" primitive would take as an extra argument the height in the "stability scale" at which the signal handler should be queued 21:07:02 You always need a partial-order of locks anyway to prevent deadlock, don't you? 21:07:13 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:07:34 yes 21:08:02 and you better hope you can track the locks and they are created in the correct order. 21:08:30 (I suppose that's how python-atfork works -- intercepts all lock-creation and hopes that happens in the right order) 21:08:38 no, it doesn't intercept anything 21:08:41 i.e. from lower-level to higher-level 21:08:52 it's just like pthread_atfork -- you register handlers 21:09:45 ok, then you have to register handlers in the correct order -- and if any handler maintains a dynamic list of locks, it also has to walk it in the correct order. 21:10:09 -!- Psittacidae_Guy [n=Dave@pool-173-76-29-230.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:11:06 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:11:11 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-76-113.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 21:11:18 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:11:19 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:11:34 You don't need a total ordering for the locks, do you, just partial orderings? 21:11:42 foom: http://code.google.com/p/python-atfork/source/browse/atfork/stdlib_fixer.py 21:12:42 looks like he's calling atfork for each and every lock that's ever created from python (god help him if any of them is deallocated). 21:12:56 huh? 21:13:24 or something. 21:13:27 fix_logging_module 21:13:39 it only touches the logging module's code 21:13:54 oh, so he does that for a fixed set of locks. 21:13:59 using threads in python isn't worth the effort i thought 21:14:10 or is that what he is trying to fix 21:14:19 konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has joined #lisp 21:14:32 there was some project to fix python, can't remember it now but i think google was involved 21:14:51 Oh, hell. There's a -data loss-. 21:14:56 nyef: well, when you start blindly grabbing all the locks, you immediately create a total ordering out of what was a partial ordering. 21:15:01 it was named after a bird swallow or something 21:15:06 When forking, you lose the register contents of the old threads. 21:15:17 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 21:15:26 Fare: Right, but you're never going to blindly grab -all- of the locks, are you? 21:15:28 http://code.google.com/p/unladen-swallow/wiki/ProjectPlan 21:15:33 unladen swallow 21:15:52 nyef, but actually, as long as you have the property that any set has a minimal element to grab first, you're fine with whatever ordering you dynamically choose. 21:16:47 nyef: of course. :) 21:16:50 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:16:52 nyef, yes you are, if you're not trying to be too clever about where in the program you fork and what locks you may skip. 21:17:05 where in the program and for what purpose. 21:17:06 Guthur: it's a Holy Grail reference. 21:17:29 Fare: And said minimal element doesn't have to be a member of the set of locks being considered? 21:17:43 ya i vaguely remember it 21:18:05 but really there is some fundamental issue with threading with python thats stops you from ever getting any real benefit 21:18:06 nyef: you make my head hurt 21:18:08 (If you're going to grab more than one per-thread lock, grab the all-threads lock first.) 21:18:10 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:18:18 something at the low level 21:18:50 Guthur: python has a single lock around everything running in the python interpreter 21:18:52 nyef, right, the "upper bound" doesn't need to be part of the set. 21:19:12 otherwise indeed you'd have a total order 21:19:25 Guthur: except for calling out to C code, only one thread can ever be running at a time, no matter how many CPUs you have. 21:19:35 I'm still thinking that this is insoluble for the fork() case unless you can recover the register context for all threads post-fork. 21:19:55 foom yep that would it, Gil is it 21:19:59 ? 21:20:18 Global interpreter lock 21:20:32 nyef, which is why you possibly need PCLSRing if you want to mess with the thread state and free it instead of letting it stay there untouched as a minefield. 21:21:23 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:21:57 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:22:19 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 21:22:23 with PCLSRing, you could ask the threads "please stop and dump your registers nicely to some well-known place" 21:22:24 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-12-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:35 and resume the threads (or not) after the fork. 21:22:39 For SBCL, however, would it not be sufficient to STOP_FOR_GC prior to forking, then resume them in the parent post-fork? 21:23:07 nyef, if all you care for are GC invariants, sure. 21:23:32 Well, that gets you a copy of the register state, from which you have a good chance of at least -unwinding-. 21:23:43 If not outright re-creating the thread. 21:23:55 if there are any "interesting" application invariants, you'll need to extend STOP_FOR_GC to rollforward to a safe state for the desired stability height. 21:24:01 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:07 Ah, right. 21:24:17 Forward or backward. 21:24:18 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:24:20 but yes, that'd be the basic mechanism 21:24:26 (or backward) 21:24:30 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:24:35 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:25:02 This, like everything else, loses with respect to alien threads. 21:25:11 (forward is all you can do if you have untracked side-effects) 21:25:40 holistic bookkeeping cannot survive with alien code -- which is why noone even tries. 21:26:42 Mmm... Okay, I have to run around for a bit, but I'll think about this while I do so. 21:26:46 (but the hope is that if you do forks right, then you can isolate such alien code in forks) 21:26:53 Do you have any good references for holistic bookkeeping? 21:27:04 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:27:27 No. The TUNES mailing-list archives? Frankly dunno. But if you find references, please send them my way. 21:27:28 KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:58 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-12-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:28:15 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:21 *sigh* 21:30:22 holistic bookkeeping with GC? 21:30:51 i assume you mean by bookkeeping mem management. or do you mean something else 21:30:51 With external unwind-for-exit tables in everything up to the atomic kernel call, it would be fairly easy to do async unwinds correctly for e.g. open. You just have to describe which register to find the fd in at every instruction boundary from the kernel-call to where it's stored into an object with a finalizer. :) 21:35:56 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@wsip-70-167-159-196.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:36:23 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:36:46 ASau [n=user@85.141.215.63] has joined #lisp 21:37:33 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:38:05 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:38:16 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 21:39:24 does anyone one know of any outstanding-bugs on sb-introspect:function-lambda-list as relates to freshly compiled lambdas. It works find on my development box, but when I load up the image on the test server I get nil instead of the expected lambda list 21:40:47 I see none on launch pad, and dont really have a simple test case to illustrate this, though I might be able to work one up tomorrow 21:41:37 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 21:43:07 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp076.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:43:17 bobbysmith007: different debug settings? 21:43:26 it won't show with debug being 0 21:43:37 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:43:54 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:44:03 stassats: thanks, that is something a coworker would likely have changed and not mentioned, that is almost certainly it 21:45:18 foom: it's not conceptually hard, but it's a lot of hassle, and something you'd like your compiler to handle for you rather than having to do it manually. 21:45:50 (and again, doesn't mix well with aliens -- unless you can agree on a meta-level declarative protocol and push it through gcc) 21:46:01 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-57-73.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:46:02 -!- ASau [n=user@85.141.215.63] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:46:04 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 21:46:09 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-134.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:46:29 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:46:30 right. GCC of course already has this declarative protocol. 21:47:12 good luck getting it into the MS toolchain. :P 21:47:22 You need a subset to do non-async unwinds, and you need the full thing to be able to debug 21:48:25 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:49:05 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:49:05 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.93.163] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:49:17 I'm not sure if the variable location annotations in the debug info currently track it between the register which is the return value of a syscall and its assignment to a local variable, though. That'd be the missing piece. But it's only a matter of outputting the right data, not introducing a format in which to be able to describe that data. 21:49:19 nipra [n=nipra@122.169.93.163] has joined #lisp 21:50:06 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:50:31 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:51:10 But even if you declare ALIEN boundaries to be off-limits, you can still track from once a syscall returns to Lisp, which would be good enough if you can interrupt blocked syscalls. 21:51:12 -!- ol3` [n=user@82.113.121.155] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:52:51 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:53:40 As for maintaining a partial ordering among locks, how much of that can be dealt with via compile-time checking such as type-checking? 21:54:37 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:54:48 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:55:39 ProGenY [n=EmpoRium@cpe-67-244-91-127.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:56:18 For runtime checking, I'm thinking that "superordinate lock" and "lock group" fields would be a good start... Though detecting a mis-ordered grab for a superordinate lock would still be a pain at runtime. 21:56:54 (Well, detecting a mis-ordered grab at runtime would likely be a general pain, come to think it...) 21:57:36 guys sorry to bother u ... i installed slime from the project page but when i do M-x slime on emacs i get Version differ: 2009-10-10 (slime) vs. 2008-02-23(swank) .... how can i fix this and what is actualy happening 21:58:34 aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:59:01 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:59:13 ProGenY: Sounds like you have an existing slime install loaded -somewhere-, and that's the backend being picked up by your lisp, but beyond that I don't see enough information to begin to debug the problem. 21:59:16 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:59:24 *nyef* is also not a slime expert by any means. 22:00:27 impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176314375.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:00:31 Oh! The superordinate lock / lock group things can be roughly approximated with a per-thread bitmask. 22:00:56 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.207.136] has quit ["..."] 22:00:59 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:03 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 22:01:13 ProGenY: your cl and elisp side is not in sync 22:01:37 Each thread maintains a bitmask for each superordinate lock that it has a child lock g... No, that's not going to work... Counters, maybe. 22:02:07 ProGenY: you have cl-swank from debian installed, you need to purge it 22:02:43 Heh. Those debian maintainers. What -will- they think of next? 22:02:56 its actualy kubuntu 22:03:02 well, same thing 22:03:09 :P 22:03:29 just do apt-get --purge remove cl-swank 22:04:16 thnx stassats 22:05:21 tau [n=euller@189.127.57.110] has joined #lisp 22:05:26 -!- dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:05:32 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:06:04 -!- tau [n=euller@189.127.57.110] has left #lisp 22:07:08 morphling [n=stefan@89.15.143.177] has joined #lisp 22:07:46 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:07:54 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:09:51 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-206-77-107.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:10:45 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:10:53 redblue [i=star@ppp012.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:13:12 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:13:35 Heh. The first thing that came to mind when seeing the image on http://tom.bespin.org/sketch/ was "perl 6!" 22:13:46 erk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 22:14:20 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:14:29 LiamH1 [n=healy@132.250.248.92] has joined #lisp 22:14:35 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:14:44 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.93.163] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:14:48 -!- LiamH1 [n=healy@132.250.248.92] has quit [Client Quit] 22:14:52 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176314375.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 22:15:03 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:15:51 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["leaving"] 22:16:31 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-128.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:16:31 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:16:41 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:16:48 LiamH [n=healy@132.250.248.92] has joined #lisp 22:18:47 ol3` [n=user@82.113.121.144] has joined #lisp 22:19:05 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@63.196.107.132] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:19:18 good night 22:19:52 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d0678c8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["[] O o , . ________"] 22:20:09 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 22:20:58 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:21:16 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:22:08 -!- LiamH [n=healy@132.250.248.92] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:22:54 -!- proun [n=proun@cpe-76-180-87-229.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["leaving"] 22:24:37 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 22:24:43 nyef so another attempt at a universal computer language, not perl 6 but TUNES 22:25:35 LiamH [n=none@132.250.248.92] has joined #lisp 22:26:31 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:26:48 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:30:28 LiamH1 [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:29 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:32:06 is there anything i can do against these loads of :'s in sldb on sbcl with (debug 3)? 22:32:25 tried a #+sbcl(sb-c::preserve-single-use-debug-variables 3) but that didn't help much 22:32:54 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:35:06 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.236.91] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:35:18 -!- LiamH [n=none@132.250.248.92] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:35:35 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:36:21 LiamH [n=none@132.250.248.92] has joined #lisp 22:36:21 ntd [n=user@143.215.129.83] has joined #lisp 22:36:30 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.215.23] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:37:03 -!- LiamH1 [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:38:00 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:39:04 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.177] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:39:55 mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.177] has joined #lisp 22:41:54 ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-147-170.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:34 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:43:06 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:43:07 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:08 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 22:45:07 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@77-21-138-135-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:46:43 nyef: so, before you grab a lock, you also 0- check that the current lock is in the set of allowed locks to grab, 1- rebind the set of allowed further locks to the set of lower locks 22:47:17 nah, won't work. 22:47:30 Fare: Essentially, yes. 22:47:50 Okay, why won't it work? 22:47:53 ok, may work in the simple case can needs to be optimized 22:48:05 ... I can't parse that. 22:48:19 and then, when you want to grab multiple locks at once, you do something more clever. 22:48:24 is it possible to run lisp on a PS3 22:48:51 Guthur: "lisp" or Common Lisp? 22:48:55 then "set of allowed further locks" may not be that trivial to compute -- but may probably be pre-computed at lock-declaration time. 22:49:11 adlai ah ya common lisp 22:49:15 Right, you declare your lock ordering at compile-time. 22:49:36 i.e. there's an automaton telling you which further locks you may grab depending on which you already have grabbed. 22:49:37 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:49:47 though another dialect would be just as interesting 22:49:51 so, maintain that automaton at lock-creation time. 22:50:06 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:50:29 it's not just a set -- but you could have a DFA or NFA. 22:50:36 scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-69-206.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:54 Right. And for the simple case of the per-thread locks, it's "you may only grab a second per-thread lock if you have the all-threads lock, but you may not grab the all-threads lock if you already have a per-thread lock." 22:51:13 yup. 22:51:27 gotta go. 22:51:36 -!- ubii [n=ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:51:40 You are also allowed to grab the all-threads lock, grab a handful of per-thread locks, then release the all-threads lock, keeping the per-thread locks for a while. 22:51:49 Okay, have fun. 22:51:56 Guthur: I don't know of any implementations, but a brief glance on the wikipedia page suggests that it has more than enough computing power to run large CL programs. 22:52:18 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:52:26 adlai indeed, fare and nyef talk of threads got me thinking about it 22:52:37 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:52:53 If there's a linux or similar for ps3 then you might be able to get at least ECL to build... 22:53:07 i had always this mad idea of lisp making use of stream processors on gfx, but then i realised the cell is that and more general purpose 22:53:10 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:53:16 iirc, there were news recently that Sony is no longer allowing linux installs on PS3s 22:53:17 older ps3s have linux 22:53:22 newer ones don't 22:53:28 dirt 22:53:34 Guthur: nyef makes a good point -- ECL compiles to C, so all you need is a C compiler for PS3, which is probably much easier to find. 22:53:35 i was thinking they still allowed it 22:53:39 so you may have to circumvent whatever measures they put in. I'm willing to bet it's already been done, though. 22:53:40 they do still allow it 22:53:43 on old PS3s 22:53:51 sykopomp: You don't need Linux to run a lisp... 22:54:21 "PS3 Slim" is the one that doesn't support linux 22:54:26 -!- drgnvale [n=acristin@209.16.73.144] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:54:26 Adlai: but you need something that lets you run any program you want :P 22:54:33 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:54:38 linux on ps3 sucks anyway 22:54:43 they don't let you at most of the hardware 22:55:04 does anyone here know how to get drakma not to pass on POST parameters to redirect URLs? 22:55:28 ralith i forgot about that, but my uni is suppose to be getting ps3 dev machines 22:55:41 srcerer [n=chatzill@63.196.107.132] has joined #lisp 22:56:02 operative words there though is 'suppose to' 22:56:23 no sign yet, and they still haven't got the linux install sorted out 22:56:41 Guthur: you could try some heavily-parallel lisp code :D 22:56:42 which is alot less money, maybe more effort though 22:56:57 sykopomp indeed 22:57:22 i have a crazy idea for a new form of neural net, but i need to go learn so heavy maths first 22:57:26 so/some 22:57:38 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:57:50 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:58:50 anyway doubt i'd have the time to figure out PS3 with lisp 22:59:19 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:01:51 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp012.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 23:01:56 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:03:33 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:03:44 hey guys 23:03:47 recommend me a html parser 23:04:39 Whatever COM object you can find for it? 23:04:43 I'm sure MS provides one. 23:05:03 ...what the hell? 23:05:09 minion: html for Ralith 23:05:10 Ralith: look at html: From Wikipedia: HTML, an acronym for HyperText Markup Language, is the predominant markup language for web pages. http://www.cliki.net/html 23:05:13 *Ralith* doublechecks channel 23:05:22 Adlai: huh, that's odd. cliki search was broken here. 23:05:46 Ralith: Did you use minion? I think he has a direct connection to cliki or something. 23:05:55 no, just browser 23:05:56 you know, electronic people have wireless telepathy. 23:06:14 anyways, that page has many links. 23:06:35 indeed 23:07:28 minion just pulls the page named, so your "minion: html" bit caused the bot to pull cliki.net/html directly and report on what it found. 23:07:38 Nothing more clever than that. 23:08:18 umm on first glance MS doesn't even provide a parse in .net 23:08:32 ooh, there's a CL browser? 23:08:32 but considering the poor job IE makes of parsing HTML... 23:08:34 nyef: right, what I mean is that he accesses cliki directly, rather than working through DNSs. Or so it seems. 23:08:35 is it any good? 23:08:39 Ralith: no 23:08:41 Adlai: my DNS is fine :P 23:08:46 aww. 23:08:47 there is 23:08:48 what's wrong with it? 23:08:54 minion: closure? 23:08:54 It just needs work 23:08:55 closure: Closure is a free web browser written completely in Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/closure 23:08:56 dead? 23:08:58 looks dead. 23:09:03 stassats: yeah that's what I'm looking at 23:10:05 it's bitrotten, though 23:10:13 Ralith: it works 23:10:35 you can extract data from its output with xml libraries 23:10:40 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-235.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 23:10:41 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:44 guaqua they say that about alot of browsers doesn't make it true 23:11:20 Guthur: parser, not as a browser 23:11:20 haven't tried it 23:11:26 as a browser, that is 23:11:32 guaqua ah fair enough 23:11:38 closure-html? 23:11:41 yes 23:11:55 closure-html worked for me 23:12:31 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:13:06 -!- Vecklock [n=Vecklock@198.177.232.253] has quit [] 23:13:28 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 23:13:30 i believe closure doesn't work well because of changes in mcclim 23:14:44 redblue [i=star@ppp196.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:14:45 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:14:50 ah bugger it seems some did my neural net idea 23:14:54 some/someone 23:15:09 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:16:34 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:17:06 i was thinking quaternions would be better suit to define the connections but it appears someone else thought that as well 23:17:09 -!- LiamH [n=none@132.250.248.92] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:18:52 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@68.100.82.124] has quit [] 23:19:15 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp196.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 23:26:30 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-157-23-181.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 23:26:38 -!- morphling [n=stefan@89.15.143.177] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:31:45 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:31:59 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-235.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 23:33:50 hi, can I --load multiple files via sbcl --load somehow? or would I have to use something like --eval "(progn (load \"foo.lisp\") (load \"bar.lisp\")" 23:34:57 doesn't --load work? 23:35:02 egn: just pass multiple --load options 23:35:22 Adlai: ah, thanks 23:35:44 stassats: I was thinking --load foo.lisp bar.lisp which didn't 23:35:55 -!- nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:36:22 egn: --load is just a wrapper for --eval (load ...), so you have to pass it multiple times if you want to load multiple files. 23:37:05 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:37:19 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:37:41 (It's not a wrapper for --eval (load ...), but it's semantically equivalent.) 23:38:05 okay, thanks 23:38:22 -!- koollman [n=samson_t@sd-10510.dedibox.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 23:38:55 -!- ProGenY [n=EmpoRium@cpe-67-244-91-127.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 23:39:02 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [] 23:39:38 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:40:41 koollman [n=samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:55 Ooh, missed Fare. 23:42:30 benny [n=benny@i577A12DD.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:43:24 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-180-249-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:43:42 peddie [n=peddie@c-67-180-249-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:47 linux install on PS3 is easy and supported, unless they broke it; SBCL runs fine on it. 23:45:05 deepfire: Indeed. And it was an interesting conversation, too. 23:46:02 ayrnieu: I believe that the point was that they -did- break it. Something about the people using the hardware for linux tending to not buy the games, thus depriving them of software sales. 23:46:36 ace4016 [n=dante401@cpe-76-168-82-150.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:47:12 all kinds of fun things happen when you sell a product at a loss, I guess. 23:47:13 Sony makes most of their money through the software sales 23:47:21 exactly 23:48:48 It doesn't even have to be at a loss, just that the incremental benefit is sufficiently less. 23:49:34 they now released a PS3 Slim which is going to replace the normal PS3 in a few months (they are not restocking them at this point) and the Slim lacks the OtherOS support 23:49:53 Ugh. The PS2 slim is bad enough. 23:50:03 hello worlds, i've another problem with macros, i'll paste it, I had an idea that could solve my problem but i like understand my error, thanks 23:50:14 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:50:47 salva pasted "macro basics" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88609 23:52:57 salva - do you see that you call (page-name-of 'widget) , which fails? 23:53:21 -!- male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:53:29 if i call the macro inside the function i get the error 23:53:51 This looks like a misplaced comma. 23:54:13 but from repl the function and the macro works and both call (page-name-of widget) 23:54:28 it does not call (page-name-of widget) ; it calls (page-name-of 'widget) 23:54:45 ok this is my error 23:55:06 that's what the error says, and the reason is here: `(div "generate page " ,(page-name-of view)) 23:55:30 mm 23:55:46 but this macro works well with macroexpansion from repl 23:56:06 i call (generate-page my-view) 23:56:13 and works 23:56:54 if i call the function (generate-widget-page my-view) works 23:56:54 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has joined #lisp 23:56:54 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:57:14 but if i call th macro inside the function get this error 23:57:31 then seems that im pasing a symbol from the function 23:58:42 salva, (page-name-of view) happens at macroexpansion time, when VIEW is just the symbol 'widget. You want to return that list from the macro, not evaluate it. 23:58:43 could be changed the type of widget here (case (type-of widget) 23:59:15 yes is a macroexpansion time 23:59:24 so compare what you have with `(div "generated page " (page-name-of ,view)) 23:59:24 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp