00:02:07 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-179.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:05:48 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:09:10 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.131.126] has joined #lisp 00:11:17 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.91.164] has joined #lisp 00:11:45 -!- OmniMancer1 is now known as OmniMancer 00:14:55 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.119] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:21:06 saikat_ [n=saikat@rescomp-09-132118.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 00:22:34 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:38 -!- chessguy_work is now known as chessguy 00:27:10 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.134.234] has joined #lisp 00:29:03 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.2.204] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:30:09 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.131.126] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:31:42 weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 00:31:45 oh hi 00:31:57 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D5C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 00:38:45 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:40:35 mokogobo [n=mokogobo@h141.153.16.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:42 weirdo: jo 00:42:03 *weirdo* installed xchat since he got sick of emacs 00:42:41 heh 00:42:42 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-70-226-85-68.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:45 *p_l* always uses irssi 00:43:16 -!- mokogobo [n=mokogobo@h141.153.16.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:48:10 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 00:48:26 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 00:52:51 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-104-221.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:52:53 pepone [n=pepone@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 00:53:23 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-67-33.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:54:02 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-176-95.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 00:54:49 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-176-95.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has left #lisp 00:55:02 Hi, is there any ebuild for uuid http://www.dardoria.net/software/uuid.html 01:00:37 amocla [n=jay@c-98-236-74-177.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:17 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:10:54 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:12 pepone, why bother with ebuilds? 01:12:16 use clbuild or asdf-install 01:12:43 i use gentoo for all my systems , so ebuilds are great 01:13:35 pepone: you can read clbuild source and replicate it for ebuilds 01:14:47 pepone, lisp doesn't play well with unix 01:15:11 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:15:20 weirdo: why not? 01:15:29 more like there is little standard infrastructure ouside of LispMs :P 01:15:45 plus whatever certain implementations (mostly Scheme) use 01:15:48 *of Scheme 01:15:51 pepone: it wasn't designed with unix in mind (at least not any more than a distant thought) 01:16:11 pepone, first of all it's a pain to make ebuilds/whatever for each and every lisp system 01:16:21 drafael [n=tapio@118.90.132.121] has joined #lisp 01:16:33 weirdo: there is already some infrastructure within gentoo-land for this sort of stuff. 01:16:34 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:16:38 -!- drafael [n=tapio@118.90.132.121] has quit [Client Quit] 01:16:40 and it should be fairly easy to write your own ebuild 01:16:52 when some distro distributes fasls of my systems i'm gonna get pissed 01:17:04 weirdo: you're wrong on all counts 01:17:19 weirdo: I actually asked this in gentoo-lisp, they create the new ebuild in 1 minute so it not sounds like painfull 01:17:41 pepone, can you easily make local changes, like with clbuild? 01:18:08 can you shoot yourself in the foot? 01:18:16 weirdo: Gentoo ebuilds for lisp aren't bad, thanks to source-based distribution 01:18:17 weirdo: what os are you using? gentoo is the best i know 01:18:22 weirdo: sudo emacsclient -c .... ;) 01:18:30 pepone, amd64 linux 01:18:58 sykopomp, emacsclient sucks. when i update slime and try to load it, it breaks because initialization for defvar change 01:19:01 p_l: it's more because of ebuild simplicity. If there was actually an effort to write and distribute lisp packages for Arch, it would be the same. 01:19:02 s 01:19:15 weirdo: wat 01:19:15 Levenson1 [n=Levenson@92.46.80.240] has joined #lisp 01:19:42 sykopomp, and if i run a plethora of emacs apps, i have to restart the whole "emacs --daemon" process because one app changed its defvars 01:19:47 drafael [n=tapio@118.90.132.121] has joined #lisp 01:19:49 it's not only defvars 01:20:07 emacsclient != emacs --daemon 01:20:08 any state is susceptible ot that 01:20:27 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has quit [] 01:20:35 stassats, emacsclient is a way to interface with the emacs daemon or just plain emacs with M-x server-start 01:21:26 pepone, i dislike all regular distros, and if i tried to formalize my way of installing stuff, it would suck as well 01:21:30 so... i use no distro :P 01:22:05 p_l, my friend uses gentoo, every time i come to him and ask to use his PC he tells me "gentoo broke, i have to fix it" 01:22:23 well he's not using gentoo anymore and his PC works :) 01:22:40 -!- HET2 [n=diman@80.3.31.126] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:23:36 weirdo: this doesn't say any good about your friend ;) , gentoo rocks 01:24:05 pepone, maybe it does now, but 6 years ago when he used it, it sucked :) 01:24:07 main reason my gentoo broke was lack of periodic updates ^^; 01:24:47 -!- TDT [n=dthole@216.248.91.254] has quit ["bbl"] 01:25:09 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 01:25:23 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 01:27:07 p_l: i use gentoo since 5 years ago, and always have my sytem updated with latest software, the good for me is that you could build optimize for your platform, and customize package build options easy 01:27:27 pepone: try updating your system on uber-slow and cranky GPRS connection 01:28:55 p_l, do you pay for data transfers on yer gprs? 01:29:07 p_l: yeah this is a pain, but you could compile binary packages in other machine with a DSL connection, and later update from that binaries 01:29:10 gentoo is the way of the --omg-optimized, and unnecessary optimization at a huge cost. 01:29:23 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.91.164] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:29:31 I thought I liked gentoo. Then I switched. I don't like gentoo anymore :) 01:29:46 sykopomp - also the way of the --eh-no-gnome-or-kde-for-me-thanks and --i18n-pls 01:30:15 *weirdo* goes for -march=native and that's it 01:30:23 ayrnieu: don't forget the "Oh fuck, I forgot that USE flag for gcc. Time to rebuild my entire fucking system" 01:30:24 ;) 01:30:25 but i mostly forget about -march 01:30:43 sykopomp, lol. object code shouldn't differ in any way 01:31:01 unless it's some bugfix or sumthin' 01:31:27 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 01:31:41 *p_l* agrees with ayrnieu 01:31:46 the situation is works with distros that only provide rpms and all is prebuild with some options, that may not feet your needs. 01:31:53 UIM packages in Arch made me very angry 01:31:54 i mean is worse 01:32:09 p_l: UIM? 01:32:17 sykopomp: Input method thingy 01:32:24 ohhh 01:32:31 I should probably set those up... 01:32:35 input methods? 01:32:37 sykopomp: standard packages wanted to download both KDE and GNOME 01:32:49 works for me! 01:32:59 p_l: gah. Do they still do that? 01:32:59  01:33:11 sykopomp: dunno, started compiling from source :P 01:33:22 p_l: and that's why I like Arch better ;p 01:34:12  01:35:07 or, rather,  01:37:22 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:37 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 01:41:34 p_l, it displays badly in xchat. a character that looks like an inverted C with a dash over it, then ~10 symbols that look like an insect, than 3 tildes 01:41:47 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-1-100.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 01:45:51 weirdo: that's correct 01:46:00 that was ufufufufufufufufu~~~ ;P 01:46:08 kanji? 01:46:14 weirdo: hiragana 01:54:48 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-147-40-39.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 01:57:10 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:08:34 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:13:26 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@rescomp-09-132118.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 02:14:24 redblue [i=star@ppp077.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:17:38 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 02:17:41 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 02:26:15 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:26:34 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:55 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:41:20 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 02:48:06 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:48:41 -!- aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:49:38 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:50:49 should (equalp `#1a(1 ,(1+ 2)) `#(1 ,(1+ 2))) yield T? 02:50:55 mkay 02:50:59 err, mischan 02:58:03 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:01:29 *_3b* can't tell if `#1a is defined or not 03:02:21 most implementations return some gibberish 03:04:12 `#2a((1 ,(1+ 2))) isn't defined for sure 03:05:33 <_3b> well, arguably that is defined to be '#2a((1 ,(1+ 2))), which should probably break on the , 03:05:52 -!- Levenson1 [n=Levenson@92.46.80.240] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:06:04 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:06:11 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.80.240] has joined #lisp 03:09:42 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.80.240] has quit [Client Quit] 03:09:52 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 03:09:58 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.80.240] has joined #lisp 03:13:27 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:13:46 error "comma not inside a backquote" on `#2a(,()) does sound a bit misleading 03:14:25 Well, it depends on if you think that is syntax for an array or for a vector literal. 03:15:41 i'm inclined to `#1a(,()) to work and `#2a(,()) to signal an error 03:16:35 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:18:03 seangrove [n=user@adsl-99-140-149-214.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:02 the same with `#S(foo :foo ,a) => #S(FOO :FOO ((|,|) . A)) 03:19:05 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.2.204] has joined #lisp 03:21:30 -!- seangrove [n=user@adsl-99-140-149-214.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:21:49 seangrove [n=user@99.140.149.214] has joined #lisp 03:24:01 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954F003.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:28:57 fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 03:30:39 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-69-47.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:33:29 jasber_ [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 03:33:34 seangrov` [n=user@99.140.149.214] has joined #lisp 03:34:44 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 03:36:11 saikat_ [n=saikat@rescomp-09-132118.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 03:40:33 -!- seangrove [n=user@99.140.149.214] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:42:04 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.194.215] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 03:43:55 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 03:44:22 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit [Client Quit] 03:46:22 wait, what? style guide by norvig and kmp says "let*" and "labels" should be preferred over "let*" and „flet” 03:46:42 makes sense 03:48:08 well i've never seen the claim before 03:48:29 but i agree with „let*”, as i use „metabang-bind” which has other features 03:48:39 i just couldn't stand writing the star every time :) 03:49:07 what are these bizarre characters you are inputting? 03:49:11 why doesn't sbcl whine when using „defvar” with no star- or plus-shaped symbols? 03:49:14 you are making emacs unhappy 03:49:21 sykopomp, open- and close-quotation 03:49:27 arencha using utf-8? 03:49:33 I am 03:49:36 you aren't 03:49:40 hm 03:49:42 :o 03:49:52 that was directed to weirdo 03:49:59 fracking xchat 03:50:13 -!- jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:50:21 LET* METABANG-BIND DEFVAR 03:51:03 no way i will let metabang-bind to defvar anything 03:52:39 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:52:59 weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 03:53:11 ó, foo 03:53:15 can you see it properly? 03:53:20 yes 03:53:24 great :) 03:53:49 there we go :) 03:53:59 it looks really silly in emacs, though. 03:56:18 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:56:27 use xft :) and the liberation mono font 03:56:44 I like dejavu vera sans 03:57:17 weirdo: http://omploader.org/vMmlzNA 03:58:52 looks ok, no? 03:58:53 -!- colin__ [n=colin@118-169-40-52.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:59:07 is that how it's supposed to look? With the open-quotes all the way down there? 03:59:57 sykopomp, yes :) 04:00:01 looks terrible 04:00:06 "foo" <-- much better ;) 04:00:14 -!- seangrov` [n=user@99.140.149.214] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:00:35 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:00:40 «foo» --- much better 04:00:44 i dimly recall double-quotes being used in the Poolish language. not like it's standard english 04:00:49 «foo» 04:00:51 i has these too :) 04:01:51 «That's how it's used in Russian typography» 04:02:31 http://translate.google.com/translate_t#auto|en|%E6%9D%9Ffoo%E6%90%8D says that means "Foo packet loss" 04:02:32 :P 04:02:42 stassats`: those quotes are used in Spanish, as well. 04:03:32 that's easier than nested backqoutes 04:05:41 *ayrnieu* associates <<>> with UserRPL on the HP48G series calculators. 04:06:36 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@173.176.100.238] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:06:43 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:07:11 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest89831 04:09:47 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 04:19:43 Good morning! 04:24:29 -!- holly_ [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:24:29 -!- Guest89831 is now known as pkhuong 04:25:10 holly_ [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 04:26:36 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:28:46 morning 04:29:11 hello p_l 04:33:34 -!- girzel` [n=user@123.121.202.211] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:34:02 -!- drafael [n=tapio@118.90.132.121] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:37:45 g'day 04:37:52 hey schmx 04:39:20 Hm. Why it doesn't work? 04:39:20 (:font :align "right" :style "float:right;color:silver;font-style:italic;" (fmt "~R" (+ 2 2) )) 04:39:30 beach: you're up early! 04:39:39 Levenson: I 04:39:41 eh 04:39:48 schmx: As usual, you too! 04:39:50 Levenson: I'm not sure what it is supposed to do, and in what context we are. 04:39:52 yeeees. 04:40:07 *schmx* is doing laundry, mopping floors and stealing sand from the playground. 04:40:30 Levenson: I agree with schmx. This is not standard CL. 04:40:48 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [] 04:41:07 Well, how could i print some info for ex (+ 2 2) into font tag? 04:41:28 Levenson: Common Lisp has no concept of a font tag. 04:41:31 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:42:00 Levenson: I am thinking you are using some html generating library? 04:42:07 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:17 cl-who 04:42:29 Ah, you could have mentioned that. 04:43:04 sorry =) 04:43:11 I have not the faintest of idea to be honest. 04:43:31 Nor me. Is fmt a cl-who thing? 04:43:46 yes 04:43:58 I have red it here http://weitz.de/cl-who/#syntax 04:44:54 so, what's the problem? 04:44:54 I just try to print some info by print or other lisp functions. 04:45:25 And i can't figure out. 04:46:50 Levenson: What is the complete form you are trying to evaluate there? that thing you typed above is bound to fail for me here :) 04:47:16 read that page again then, note STR command 04:47:17 or do I just wrap it in WITH-HTML-OUTPUT? 04:48:32 http://paste.org.ru/?h8rt7p 04:50:14 *schmx* looks. 04:50:44 Levenson: I wrapped your stuff there in (with-html-output (*standard-output* nil :prologue t) .... ) and that gave me 04:50:50 four 04:50:54 which I guess is what you wanted? 04:51:02 Yes. 04:51:13 And i can see that in sbcl 04:51:20 But not in my browser. 04:51:28 well, you need with-html-output-to-string 04:51:53 Levenson: Maybe *standard-output* is not --> browser :) 04:52:14 ok. 04:52:24 I feel dirty from all this html and webapp stuff now. 04:52:41 But when i delete (fmt ) it looks good in it. 04:52:45 there appears to be no sane way for doing webapps 04:53:37 dpb` [i=dpb@SDF.LONESTAR.ORG] has joined #lisp 04:53:44 weirdo: I think the sane way is to pay someone to do 'em for ya :) 04:54:04 that doesnt' solve the problem 04:54:11 -!- dpb` [i=dpb@SDF.LONESTAR.ORG] has quit [Client Quit] 04:54:35 *weirdo* needs the Final Solution to the Webapp Question 04:55:01 that's an easy one: don't write webapps 04:55:19 stassats`: Thanks =) 05:01:42 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.179.249] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:01:59 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@rescomp-09-132118.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 05:02:14 saikat_ [n=saikat@rescomp-09-132118.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 05:02:40 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:06:58 *beach* installs the "It's all text" plugin for firefox. 05:07:37 That a real plugin? 05:08:06 Yeah, it lets you use your favorite editor to edit the contents of a text field (or whatever firefox calls it). 05:08:48 I see. 05:09:22 That really sounds mildly annoying :) 05:09:33 How so? 05:09:52 nah, my favorite editor has built-in web-browser 05:11:44 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 05:12:55 stassats`: Do you mean w3? 05:15:05 Well I dunno.. I'm sitting there browsing away. and I want to enter text in a field and bam. it has to fire up vim. 05:15:09 I dunno. 05:15:24 I guess I don't write so much text in boxes :) 05:15:58 beach: emacs-w3m 05:16:09 schmx: Occasionally, I need to use things like that. Then it is good to have my spell checker, my abbrevs, and all the other Emacs features I am used to. 05:16:25 stassats`: Is it good? 05:16:38 quite good, i read clhs with it 05:18:32 I guess maybe it would be good for gmail. 05:19:06 that's what gnus is for 05:19:51 ugh. no 05:23:21 i miss one type of functionality 05:23:24 it's silly, probably 05:23:36 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@rescomp-09-132118.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:23:41 i'd like to inherit from a class many times 05:24:12 like, a class has two slots, and include them a couple of times, to avoid creating a new... disregard that, it doesn't make sense 05:25:50 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 05:26:30 :) 05:28:56 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:32:26 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:33:28 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 05:40:42 clhs some 05:40:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm 05:40:46 gee how i hate these 4 functions 05:40:55 they couldn't have given them worst names 05:42:04 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host111.190-226-115.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:44:58 what names would you prefer they have? 05:45:20 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-104-221.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:45:33 weirdo: those are pretty accurate names, for what they do. 05:46:05 all some some-are-not none 05:48:19 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.40.222] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:48:39 sykopomp, except that i can't remember them 05:48:45 I sometimes think that notany would be better called "none" 05:48:52 every and notany discrepancy is pretty bad 05:49:16 Adlai, ME TOO 05:50:16 *Adlai* peers at weirdo 05:53:38 kmp and norvig's style guide has some horrible code examples 05:53:51 labelled as bad, but just looking at them makes me cringe 05:54:38 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:07:03 sepult` [n=levgue@87.78.27.48] has joined #lisp 06:09:20 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 06:14:51 -!- sepult [n=levgue@87.78.31.210] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:15:29 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-65.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:16:52 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 06:19:36 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:21:42 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp077.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:21:54 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:22:51 hello 06:25:19 redblue [i=star@ppp022.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 06:25:19 saikat_ [n=saikat@rescomp-09-132118.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 06:30:34 -!- pepone [n=pepone@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit ["KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: 3437, sources date: 20090703, built on: 2009/09/09 21:03:17 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/"] 06:30:37 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 06:31:03 weirdo, it's because of their cultural heritage we can now look at them from a safe distance and wonder. 06:31:43 hmm, but that code would be considered "good" in scheme-land 06:32:19 they don't use higher-order functions, instead of writing COUNT-IF once, they write tail-recursion that does the same thing 06:32:40 "no, i don't see how scheme would benefit from keyword argumetns" :-D 06:33:40 Well, it would reduce the need for something like destructuring-bind ... :) 06:33:52 Of course, if you don't feel a need for something like that ... 06:36:08 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:37:11 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 06:41:17 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@88.73.225.114] has joined #lisp 06:43:22 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.80.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:43:29 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-206-112-178.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:43:43 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.80.240] has joined #lisp 06:45:05 tiri [i=tiri@ppp-196-29-32-120.utande.co.zw] has joined #lisp 06:46:36 hi guys i am a just starting to learn programming but i am interested in learning either lisp or haskell--- does anyone use both and can you tell me the advantages of one over the other? 06:47:51 syntax and metaprogramming vs. lazy evaluation and static typing. 06:48:34 when you say metaprogramming i assume you are talking about macros... 06:56:34 not just about macros 06:57:08 and not even about EVAL. haskell has no elegant syntax for reading or printing ASTs 06:57:10 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:57:26 also interactive programming 06:57:32 ghci is a joke 06:57:41 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 06:57:49 CLOS with its MOP (meta-object protocol) is interesting wrt. metaprogrammning too 06:57:49 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:57:51 xristos, M-x run-haskell is better than nothing, but of course can't compare to slime 06:58:16 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 06:58:19 weirdo: i still can't compile incrementally 06:58:19 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:58:35 xristos, there's a command to load the file 06:58:41 the whole file yes 06:58:53 yep. i know, it sucks, but i don't even use haskell 06:59:52 anyone know if it's possible to increase array-dimension-limit in ccl 06:59:56 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 06:59:59 it is only (* 2048 2048 4) here 07:00:13 but i'd be interested about hearing an argument about why haskell is worth learning over lisp 07:00:25 because i've been trying to learn it but always got distracted by shiny objects 07:00:32 weirdo: lazy evaluation and static typing :) 07:00:42 xristos, why do you need so many dimensions? 07:00:48 i don't need many dimension 07:00:59 Zhivago, well lazy evaluation is trivial to implement inefficiently :) 07:01:00 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:01:04 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-149-175.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:01:11 i need byte bector with >16777216 bytes 07:01:12 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:01:23 xristos, bignum :) 07:01:26 yeah, it sucks 07:01:32 weirdo: And how would that force you to think about programming everything with lazy evaluation? 07:02:41 Zhivago, does haskell? because i once read a PDF on it, it sloppily explained lazy evaluation, then shown a code example that had more "<-" and "do { ... }" than it didn't 07:02:58 oh, and half the book described hindley-milner 07:03:06 so much for haskell 07:03:28 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 07:03:42 well you get static typing and with type inference/type classes it is bearable 07:03:43 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:03:44 well, deforestation seems nice... 07:03:58 easy to parallelize too 07:04:09 -!- schoppen1auer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:04:21 weirdo: Yes, it does :) What you're seeing there are the consequences of being forced to use lazy evaluation for everything, even when you don't want to. 07:04:24 weirdo, haskell so far is very close on the top for very shortest programs I've seen 07:04:25 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:04:28 xristos, can it parallelize automatically? 07:04:40 weirdo: There are valuable lessons in that, too. 07:04:46 weirdo, i.e. it can be really very expressive 07:04:49 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:05:17 Zhivago, my lazy-eval impl had a "<-" that was like a progn that just "did stuff", no monads, monad types, io monads, CGI monads... 07:05:21 weirdo: i don't think so but compared to side-effects CL/threads/locks, being purely functional makes it easy 07:05:32 weirdo: I don't care. 07:05:48 deepfire, except that when you try to refactor point-free code, you have to rewrite them 07:06:16 xristos, neither lisp nor haskell is purely functional 07:06:25 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 07:06:28 both have side effects, mutable state 07:06:36 besides 07:06:46 in lisp, you can perform local side-effects and no one is hurt 07:06:55 haskell has a problem with that 07:07:00 weirdo: i mean the typical code out there 07:07:08 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 07:07:18 xristos, CL code is generally high-quality 07:07:24 at least libraries i use 07:07:28 weirdo: And people complain about having to do their own optimizations in C code ... 07:08:02 in haskell? yuck 07:08:12 There was another interesting languages, before I gave up on looking around -- mercury. Something like a cross between haskell and prolog. 07:08:41 deepfire: part of the reason haskell is so 'concise' is because it's the perl of functional languages 07:09:01 no serious person would brag about how short you can make perl programs ;) 07:09:23 heh 07:09:31 truer words. 07:10:23 actually perl is pretty verbose 07:10:32 e.g. sigils 07:10:53 weirdo: not once you turn it into single-char-var-soup. 07:10:57 and the same goes for haskell 07:11:16 it just happens that haskell has a metric asston of syntax sugar, and by convention uses short, unreadable identifiers :) 07:11:16 sykopomp, @{ $foo->{bar} } 07:11:37 one of the reasons i hate perl 07:11:41 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 07:15:46 when I was writing in haskell 07:15:53 every time I used a readable variable name it looked out of place :P 07:15:53 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:16:27 ASau [n=user@91.77.240.166] has joined #lisp 07:16:41 One thing I wish I had in Lisp is series-as-sequences. 07:16:48 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["sudo nmap -A -PN localhost"] 07:17:23 that would actually be quite useful -- specially since I've been really getting really into using map and company. 07:18:03 series being? 07:18:24 minion: series for Ralith 07:18:26 Ralith: direct your attention towards series: Series is a Library for operating on series, a data structure similar to a sequence. http://www.cliki.net/series 07:18:38 Ralith: a well-meaning library with a horrid API 07:19:52 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:25 sykopomp, generic sequences would be nice, yes 07:20:29 -!- tiri [i=tiri@ppp-196-29-32-120.utande.co.zw] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:20:31 and sbcl actually has generic sequences 07:22:01 weirdo: it has an extension protocol, which requires method dispatching. 07:22:06 and of course, is non-portable. 07:22:38 which is too bad, really -- series are one of those things it would be nice to have well-optimized. 07:23:06 sykopomp, can be implemented portably with shadowing-import 07:23:16 and series is pretty archaic 07:23:35 i had to struggle to do the simplest of tasks 07:24:10 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-13-171.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:24:14 weirdo: are you volunteering? It would be quite nice to have. 07:24:34 weirdo: how does shadowing 07:24:49 weirdo: how does shadowing-import help you implement an implementation-dependant library portably? 07:25:30 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 07:26:36 Adlai: well, if you -basically- reimplement the whole sequences library... ;) 07:27:24 what does shadowing-import have to do with that!? 07:28:17 -!- hjpark [n=user@116.40.135.21] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:28:34 Adlai, so that code that needs generic sequences can work without nothing more than shadowing-import (and fixing typecase) 07:28:40 i mean etypecase 07:33:00 -!- ASau [n=user@91.77.240.166] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:33:38 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:36:42 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:37:15 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:37:59 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.173] has joined #lisp 07:38:25 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.80.240] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:39:29 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:39:32 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 07:39:57 gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 07:39:58 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:40:44 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:40:49 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.131.248] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:40:49 does anybody have emacs configured for both Common Lisp and Clojure? right now I can only do one or the other 07:41:40 Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.78.181] has joined #lisp 07:42:07 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:42:07 -!- dfox [n=dfox@94.113.17.246] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:42:07 -!- _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:42:07 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-5de570d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:42:07 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.107.70] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:42:07 -!- eihrul [n=eihrul@ip72-193-224-224.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:42:07 -!- jyujin_ [n=jyujin@d221-90-121.commercial.cgocable.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:42:07 -!- j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:42:07 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441179.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:42:07 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:42:07 -!- p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-zgvbjcirzcrgwkga] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:42:07 -!- v0|d [n=user@213.232.33.243] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:42:07 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-182-123.net.novis.pt] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:42:07 -!- deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:42:21 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:42:26 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-69-154.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:42:44 TR2N [i=email@89.180.182.123] has joined #lisp 07:42:49 gonzo - ask #emacs about it. 07:43:32 koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.107.70] has joined #lisp 07:43:49 mikezor [n=mikael@c-5de570d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:43:53 [Jackal] [n=Jackal@118.94.83.194] has joined #lisp 07:44:07 j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has joined #lisp 07:44:11 p_l [i=plasek@89.248.166.201] has joined #lisp 07:44:23 ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.130.59] has joined #lisp 07:44:26 jyujin_ [n=jyujin@d221-90-121.commercial.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:30 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441179.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 07:49:02 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:49:21 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.182.123] has quit [Killed by douglas.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 07:49:26 -!- p_l [i=plasek@89.248.166.201] has quit [Killed by douglas.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 07:49:31 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:49:31 dfox [n=dfox@94.113.17.246] has joined #lisp 07:49:31 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:31 eihrul [n=eihrul@ip72-193-224-224.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:31 TR2N [i=email@89-180-182-123.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 07:49:31 deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 07:49:31 p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-zgvbjcirzcrgwkga] has joined #lisp 07:49:31 v0|d [n=user@213.232.33.243] has joined #lisp 07:49:31 _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:49:32 -!- p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-zgvbjcirzcrgwkga] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 07:49:33 p_l_ [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-fpbjbpytmyxyvzng] has joined #lisp 07:50:20 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:50:28 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-182-123.net.novis.pt] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 07:50:37 -!- v0|d [n=user@213.232.33.243] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 07:50:39 TR2N [i=email@89.180.182.123] has joined #lisp 07:51:12 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:51:19 morphling [n=stefan@89.13.35.179] has joined #lisp 07:51:36 -!- p_l_ is now known as p_l 07:58:30 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:59:03 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:01:53 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:02:30 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:04:34 pkhuong: really? shame. You should write it up for the internals manual anyway 08:04:48 (in as much as anyone "should" do anything) 08:04:53 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:05:25 ln5 [n=ln5@h174n7c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 08:07:55 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:20 gonzojive: swank-clojure is a major pain in the ass since it basically assumes that clojure is the only lisp 08:09:21 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:23:07 -!- ln5 [n=ln5@h174n7c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:25:04 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:25:33 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:30:01 -!- male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:30:27 male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:01 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:33:35 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:36:08 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:36:33 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:37:05 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:45:02 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:45:31 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:45:35 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 08:50:49 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:51:11 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:54:28 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D5C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:57:19 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81.226.253.54] has joined #lisp 09:02:24 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:05:47 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229161166.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:12:13 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 09:13:03 girzel [n=user@123.121.253.110] has joined #lisp 09:13:40 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:14:13 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:14:16 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 09:15:45 milanj [n=milan@79.101.230.56] has joined #lisp 09:15:45 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:15:48 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 09:16:17 ASau [n=user@91.77.240.166] has joined #lisp 09:20:22 -!- [Jackal] [n=Jackal@118.94.83.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:21:06 -!- skeptomai|away [n=nncb@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Getting off stoned server - dircproxy 1.2.0"] 09:21:09 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.154] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:21:15 skeptomai|away [n=nnncb@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:33 -!- male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:21:57 male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:09 angerman [n=angerman@138.246.7.41] has joined #lisp 09:23:24 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 09:33:00 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:34 -!- ASau [n=user@91.77.240.166] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:34:59 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:38:26 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:38:35 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:39:51 serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d0671fa.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:39:53 hello 09:40:46 helo 09:40:47 Ralith: where are you? 09:41:51 woah! a huge spider just crawled over my laptop screen 09:42:35 eat it! 09:42:46 nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has joined #lisp 09:42:51 i wonder where it will crawl when you sleep 09:42:54 i am not gonna eat it!! 09:43:02 ya it is in my bed somewhere! 09:43:31 cozy! 09:43:43 shit I can't find it 09:43:56 it crawled out of the ethernet prt 09:44:07 ok huge was not what it was. but it looked huge on top of firefox 09:44:31 haha 09:45:09 I can't wait 'til I tell the wife that we have a spider in the bed. 09:45:09 hahaha 09:45:47 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@rescomp-09-132118.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 09:46:03 :> 09:46:51 messed up. I go to have a lil' lie down to write the first code on months and bam. stupid spider messes it all up. 09:47:08 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483E0D6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:41 get some cats 09:48:46 but they'll walk all over the keyboard 09:50:44 xristos: we have two cats already. They're not allowed in here :) 09:50:57 not that it helps. turns out some cats know how to open doors. 09:51:58 only really had one keyboard walking accident. I was using the CL as a form of metronome. basically printing #\Bel ever so often. stupid cat walks on the keyboard typing a combination of ' and 8 + stepping on the Mute button. 09:52:02 grrrr 09:54:30 p0a [n=user@athedsl-387782.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 09:54:35 Hello 09:54:44 I'm performing some regex on a big string that returns wrong results for some reason 09:55:17 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:55:25 paste.lisp.org 09:55:25 ejs [n=eugen@95.135.53.207] has joined #lisp 09:55:46 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:56:23 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.78.181] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:56:39 Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.78.181] has joined #lisp 09:56:57 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:57:47 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:58:08 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:58:42 p0a pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88500 09:58:56 xristos: ^ 10:00:02 that's a long string 10:00:33 can't do anything about that 10:00:40 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D5C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 10:01:00 *schmx* installs some cl-ppcre 10:04:32 works fine here with 300k char string 10:04:58 It is a page I retrieve from the internet, may it be the case that teh regex doesn't match for some other reason? 10:05:22 how many splits does it return 10:05:25 1 10:05:38 Which means it hasn't matched anything 10:05:40 and length is same as string length i assume ? 10:05:43 yes 10:07:13 (cl-ppcre:split "SOMETHING" (genstring)) => ("" "") (length (genstring)) => 400009 10:07:50 must be some other reason ya 10:08:17 [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.2] has joined #lisp 10:08:21 drafael [n=tapio@118.90.132.121] has joined #lisp 10:08:26 What do you suggest for me to find out? 10:08:45 how are you inspecting it to see that it matches? 10:08:55 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:11:39 From the repl I can see "SOMETHING" inside the string 10:12:06 The symbols match, by looking at them 10:12:39 seems odd :) 10:12:58 My regex contains "" to match some tags 10:13:02 perhaps that is the reason it doesn't work? 10:13:17 If I search for "bar(.*)" 10:14:33 are you trying to parse xml with regular expressions? 10:14:41 (this is not an issue with the SPLIT function only, in fact SPLIT was a work around to the original problem...) 10:14:49 yes 10:15:04 I don't think <> should be any problem. 10:15:05 do you realize that xml is not a regular language? 10:15:21 serichsen: I'm not trying to implement XML 10:15:28 I'm trying to extract some information from a web page 10:15:48 But if it is easy to do with a library for xml then fine, which library is that and I'll try again 10:16:37 p0a: http://www.cliki.net/closure-html 10:16:42 minion: cxml for p0a 10:16:42 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:16:43 also cxml, cxml-stp 10:16:43 cxml: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/cxml 10:16:57 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 10:17:11 there is also closure-xml, i think 10:17:21 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:19:31 http://common-lisp.net/project/closure/closure-html/examples.html 10:20:23 awesome 10:23:06 you can search cl-user.net for libraries 10:24:21 But now I have to do a tree depth search to find the relevant information (supossing I use chtml:parse with the LHTML builder) - how can I do that? Chapter of 13 PCL doesn't mention that (though trees are briefly discussed) 10:24:42 I know how to write the algorithm myself but I'm wondering if there's a standard utility to do it 10:27:06 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:29:44 you can use cxml-stp 10:29:50 check the google search example 10:30:27 ok 10:30:53 it traverses the dom tree and extracts the links 10:31:12 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 10:32:49 too complicated and I don't want to extract links 10:33:00 I'll write the search function myself 10:35:23 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:35:36 (stp:do-recursively (a document) then code to match what you want 10:35:41 what's complicated ? ;p 10:38:13 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:38:49 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:38:50 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:39:03 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:40:55 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-93040.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 10:45:32 xristos: you're right, it's easy. I didn't spend time reading the documentation 10:45:33 thanks 10:50:44 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-93040.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:52:30 xristos: how do I read in a whole document as a node? 10:52:53 (stp:do-recursively (x "foo.html") ...) doesn't work 10:53:14 and the docs only mention make-document which doesn't do this 10:54:02 (chtml:parse string (cxml-stp:make-builder)) 10:54:52 oh 10:55:36 you can't operate on the string itself, you have to parse and transform it 10:55:56 unless you want to do stuff with regexps that is 10:56:41 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-206-23-142.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:57:02 milanj- [n=milan@93.87.117.31] has joined #lisp 10:58:08 yep 10:58:11 I don't mind 10:58:18 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:35 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:00:09 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:02:56 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-90350.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 11:05:18 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.230.56] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:05:26 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:05:54 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:06:03 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.2.204] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:06:56 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:07:05 is there a common lisp library that rips off features from Clojure? 11:07:41 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:09 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-147-40-39.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:08:24 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:08:42 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:13:08 davazp [n=user@32.Red-79-157-128.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:39 there's cl-stm, and there a dozens half-finished libraries to provide an erlang-like process interface 11:19:40 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:19:44 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 11:19:56 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.240.112] has joined #lisp 11:20:08 fset too 11:21:01 Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has joined #lisp 11:21:01 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:21:18 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:23:38 feel free to chime in http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=874565 11:24:39 tcr: pcall, used briefly and loved here 11:26:26 what about it 11:26:41 you can write a macro at cahracter level 11:26:47 -!- schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:27:02 #$cddaadadadr 11:27:23 fiveop_ [n=fiveop@g229149133.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:28:06 gotta love the concept of arbitrary 11:28:30 what's that? 11:29:28 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-387782.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 11:30:10 -!- drafael [n=tapio@118.90.132.121] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:30:12 that's trivial with a read macro, fusss 11:30:23 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 11:30:29 -!- davazp [n=user@32.Red-79-157-128.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 11:30:45 I don't like weird syntax 11:30:55 or any other kind of syntax for that matter 11:31:07 isn't it enough that you have to defdecon first? 11:31:46 it would be cool to lazily define functions/macros/variables so you could take arbitrary a's and d's 11:32:30 gonzojive: that would restrain your mental symbol-table, imo 11:32:38 and very prone to errors 11:33:12 i learned that first hand with a define-view macro which generated crud and admin pages from a persistent class definition 11:33:15 yeah it would probably just be a source of confusion but maybe there's a case that makes sense out there 11:33:55 i gotta sleep anyway :-) good night all 11:33:57 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"] 11:33:57 surely it would be ridiculously prone to error for any sizeable number of a's and d's 11:34:19 i mean the user (coder) 11:36:47 -!- frontiers [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:38:42 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229161166.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:38:54 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:39:45 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:40:11 yeah, structures should have "names" 11:40:47 ..and/or their accessors 11:41:05 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:44:17 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229150158.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:46:51 konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has joined #lisp 11:49:51 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.78.181] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:50:31 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:51:11 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.130.59] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:52:05 ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.130.59] has joined #lisp 11:52:51 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 11:53:34 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:54:16 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:00 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:00:40 -!- fiveop_ [n=fiveop@g229149133.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:00:55 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:01:19 ol3` [n=user@82.113.106.150] has joined #lisp 12:04:05 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:04:30 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:04:40 ZardoZ77 [n=chatzill@88.115.222.238] has joined #lisp 12:04:44 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.240.112] has quit [] 12:05:17 hi, I've got a few beginner questions regarding db access, structures/objects and such 12:05:23 egoz [i=egoz@114.58.82.71] has joined #lisp 12:07:36 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:07:46 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:22 zardoZ77 thanks for letting us know, if you ever want them answered you can ask the questions here, a lot of knowledge people 12:08:55 yes, I was just checking if anyone is awake :) ... ok here comes 12:09:43 well i'm not sure if they are awake, but you can always try 12:09:54 in Java and other OO languages what you usually do, is that you read data from db, construct objects out of them, and then do something with it, and put it back to db 12:10:25 you want an object mapper? 12:10:33 check out ELEPHANT. 12:10:46 no, I'd like to know if that is idiomatic approach when you do Lisp 12:10:56 postmodern gives you nice objects from pgsql IIRC 12:11:07 and that cl-sql 12:11:25 clsql even 12:11:53 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-051-234.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:54 I'm wondering if in the functional programming community there is some other way to deal with this, for example using lists of lists 12:11:57 I distincly remember it killing my sbcl 'cause I ran out of memory. Silly thing. Who would have know 8GB wouldn't be enough :) 12:12:13 ZardoZ77, Lisp isn't very much a functional programming language. 12:12:19 zardoZ77 lisp is just capable of functional programming 12:12:26 isn't 12:12:31 We're more into functioning. 12:12:40 ZardoZ77, have a look at http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp 12:13:03 I realize that, but still I would assume to find lots of solution patterns outside object-oriented ones in the Lisp community 12:13:09 especially the parts on generic functions and meta-object protocol. 12:13:32 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:13:42 well. what you just described was very vague. give a better example. 12:13:47 or rather, a more specific example. 12:13:53 I read it as querying databases. 12:13:56 heh. 12:14:13 Which is obviously supported, Lisp is a programming language. :-) 12:14:26 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:14:31 ZardoZ77, you could create in-memory stores of objects in Lisp. 12:14:35 not sure if I can give a better example 12:14:42 maybe serialize them to disk instead of going through SQL. 12:14:56 I'm just researching other ways of doing things, than OR-mapping, and building objects out of everything 12:15:13 ZardoZ77: there seems to be some confusion here as to what you are wanting to do :) 12:15:14 ZardoZ77, you don't use "list of lists" as data storage that much, you'd rather make a class or structure (defclass / defstruct) and use it as, well, objects. 12:15:30 schme, yeah. 12:15:37 I know 12:15:38 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:15:46 Try again. 12:15:46 ZardoZ77: I'm thniking you have a database, which you query, you get some objects.. or you make some objects, and put them in the database. normal sql interfacing. 12:16:28 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:48 to be honest there is not that much difference between building lists of lists, structures, or objects for this simple case (: 12:16:56 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:00 so let's say you want to do a "select * from products", you would either create a list of structs, or a list of objects? 12:17:16 everything is an object. :-) 12:17:33 tic is everything not a list too 12:17:37 defstruct/defclass is just a minor difference in this case. 12:17:39 darn, I can't seem to escape OO anywhere 12:17:47 ZardoZ77: For CL you'd use the library clsql or postmodern. Both of those will give you a list of objects, yes. 12:17:51 ZardoZ77, you have the wrong idea about OO, though. 12:18:19 ZardoZ77: You might want to look into how prolog would handle it perhaps. or maybe haskell. 12:18:49 But.. not much difference in returning an object or a record or what heck here imo :) 12:19:03 list of objects, or list of records. sorry 12:19:14 ZardoZ77, coming from other languages, I'm guessing, you associate OO with Java/C++-style single dispatch, aka message passing, where code-and-data is an object. in Lisp, just the data is the object. You should read the chapter "Object Reorientation" in Practical Common Lisp. 12:19:37 tic: that's correct 12:19:45 good point 12:20:01 oh ya.. in java there would be a difference between an object and an array I guess (: 12:20:21 here's some background info: I've been reading lately on asynchronous message passing architectures a'la Erlang and Stackless Python 12:20:51 I've also tried to familiarize myself with functional programming 12:21:08 ZardoZ77, Lisp is multiple dispatch. a very different beast compared to message passing/single dispatch. 12:21:18 -!- ol3 [n=user@82.113.121.152] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:21:28 http://gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html 12:21:45 ZardoZ77: I'd give a guess at normal sql interfacing from erlang would return you a list of records. It is not that different from returning a list of objects in CL. 12:22:30 ZardoZ77 you can ignore the OO part if you want, and try functional programming 12:22:47 then once you do that try the CLOS 12:23:25 concentrating on one paradigm at a time might be more productive in terms of learning 12:23:37 ZardoZ77: To do what you asked for in your first question, the easiest thing to do would be to keep objects in memory so that they don't have to be read in all the time. Then you can just modify them at will. 12:23:37 12:23:52 beach: He just wants to query a database. 12:24:04 schme: That's not how I understood the question. 12:24:16 I'm just looking at the alternatives 12:24:19 beach: (: 12:24:55 ZardoZ77: you will have a hard time avoiding objects in CL (: 12:25:09 I guess Lisp has everything :) 12:25:25 and if it doesn't, you can code it yourself there 12:25:36 ya we're pretty much the best. 12:25:46 and the most modest :D 12:25:50 yup. 12:26:13 We don't quite have the erlang spread out across tons of nodes all over de place and crazy message passing going yet. 12:26:18 ZardoZ77: One approach would be to have a list of objects, say *products* which would contain instances of the class product. Then you can use filtering functions such as remove-if and such. 12:26:21 I like the extremely terse and minimalist syntax of Lisp ... I just know the libraries and idioms very little 12:26:25 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp022.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:26:26 But that's just a matter of writing two or three macros ;) 12:27:01 Hmm, like (loop for x from 1 upto 10 do (print x))? 12:27:46 ya. that's pretty much erlang I guess. 12:28:02 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [] 12:28:07 I was thinking more of minimalism, myself. 12:28:13 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:28:22 oh! 12:28:40 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:29:28 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:31:36 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:31:54 schem, CLOS came after common lisp was defined, so i don't see it would be difficult to avoid using it that often, its convenient though 12:32:03 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:32:14 Um, well, it depends on what you mean by 'defined'. 12:32:40 before ANSI standard, Steele first definition 12:33:10 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-240-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:33:24 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-051-234.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:33:28 Guthur: Uh. I'm just saying it is very hard to avoid objects in any modern CL. 12:34:13 Guthur: Like oh I dunno.. not using function objects. 12:35:12 (defun foo ()) (class-of #'foo) ; => # 12:35:18 <``Erik> or the 't' object and its descendents? :) 12:35:30 ``Erik: exactly. 12:36:04 schme ya i'm being pedantic, but so are you with function objects, i mean defining classes etc 12:36:40 pedantic lispers. That's a first! 12:36:42 (: 12:37:05 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:37:09 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:21 Guthur: I wrote a thing just last week or something that didn't use any of all that. So yes, it is possible. 12:37:58 but! seeing how all software should be using McCLIM it's pretty much impossible unless it's a dead stupid thing. 12:38:02 like my metronome :) 12:39:08 raghu` [n=user@210.212.50.14] has joined #lisp 12:39:13 beach: you might be interested in and 12:39:24 don't always need a GUI, sure why would be outside emacs anyway, hehe 12:39:43 Guthur: I'm outside of emacs as much as possible (: 12:39:53 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:41:11 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:41:12 ya i'm not in much besides coding lisp, just being silly. Some people use it for everything though i believe 12:43:05 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:44:03 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:44:16 Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.78.181] has joined #lisp 12:47:07 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:47:44 danlei [n=user@pD9E2C95C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:25 Guthur: I used to use t for everything. I twas my wm too;) 12:49:49 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 12:49:49 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:50:16 ASau` [n=user@83.237.166.229] has joined #lisp 12:51:50 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 12:52:45 -!- milanj- [n=milan@93.87.117.31] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:00:03 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:01:38 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:02:22 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:10:55 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:13:46 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-149-175.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:13:46 -!- ASau` [n=user@83.237.166.229] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:13:58 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:16:44 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 13:16:44 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:17:04 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:19:04 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:20:45 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:23:26 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-104-221.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:24:42 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 13:26:27 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:27:49 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-168.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:28:40 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-88.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 13:28:40 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:28:59 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.78.181] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:29:01 -!- mle [n=emily@kuu.accela.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:29:12 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:29:45 out curiosity; is it better to put the let out side a loop and setf inside or put it inside or no difference? 13:29:54 out/out of 13:30:17 Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.78.181] has joined #lisp 13:31:17 -!- raghu` [n=user@210.212.50.14] has left #lisp 13:32:56 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:33:02 I'd put it inside if I wasn't using it outside ? 13:33:18 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:33:23 But then I guess I'd be using dem loop variables instead. 13:34:33 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:34:38 avoid setfing variables, since that tends to gratuitously confuse analyses. Do setf objects' slots or arrays' cells instead of constantly reallocating copies in an inner loop. 13:35:43 powertip 13:35:43 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:35:57 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:36:28 kk thanks 13:38:26 milanj [n=milan@93.87.117.31] has joined #lisp 13:40:14 swathanthran [n=user@117.204.85.179] has joined #lisp 13:40:14 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:40:35 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:41:08 I believe you asked the exact same question less than a week ago. 13:41:36 The answer (and the answerer) hasn't changed. 13:42:16 pkhuong don't remember asking it to be honest 13:42:18 are you sure 13:43:21 its possible i did, but its been on my mind for the last couple of days so i don't think i did 13:44:08 Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has joined #lisp 13:44:08 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:44:46 plus i did it in quite a few places since then so never followed the advice, which would indicate i never asked 13:46:44 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:50:11 schme: so what are you using now instead of emacs 13:50:58 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 13:51:08 xristos: for what? 13:51:09 (: 13:51:56 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has joined #lisp 13:51:57 writing lisp 13:52:27 oh. 13:53:13 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:53:45 xristos: I use emacs for lisp. As I said I'm outside it as much as possible. I haven't quite found a good alternative to that. But I used to do everything in emacs. 13:53:52 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-3-113.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:54:09 xan [n=xan@dhcp-18-111-36-146.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 13:54:32 ok 13:54:55 I'm not sure if using that whole climacs setup is viable alternative. 13:55:06 I think it would require too much hacking, and I'm pressed on time already :) 13:56:08 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:57:04 ASau` [n=user@83.237.166.229] has joined #lisp 14:05:02 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.2.204] has joined #lisp 14:07:21 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:08:12 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 14:09:44 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 14:11:18 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:24 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:13:01 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:31 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 14:17:39 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:19:31 -!- ASau` [n=user@83.237.166.229] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:20:36 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:20:51 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:26:02 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:26:26 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.196.125] has joined #lisp 14:27:11 reber [n=reber@78.251.148.147] has joined #lisp 14:35:07 -!- swathanthran [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:38:09 swathanthran [n=user@117.204.85.179] has joined #lisp 14:39:40 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:41:04 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@87.78.27.48] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:41:30 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-48.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:42:13 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:46:55 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-48.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:48:05 macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:53:54 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.196.125] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 14:55:19 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 14:55:46 psismondi [n=user@d24-150-10-209.home.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:50 marioxcc [n=user@200.56.159.173] has joined #lisp 14:59:33 -!- psismondi [n=user@d24-150-10-209.home.cgocable.net] has left #lisp 15:03:32 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-101-226.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:07:44 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 15:08:09 TDT [n=dthole@254.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:53 -!- ZardoZ77 [n=chatzill@88.115.222.238] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"] 15:10:58 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:15:04 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.173] has quit ["so long.."] 15:21:36 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 15:23:07 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:24:37 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:25:17 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-48.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:25:47 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:26:14 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:29:17 -!- ejs [n=eugen@95.135.53.207] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:30:29 p0a pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88505 15:30:33 p0a [n=user@athedsl-387782.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:30:57 ejs [n=eugen@95.135.53.207] has joined #lisp 15:31:06 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-176-95.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 15:31:15 p0a annotated #88505 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88505#1 15:31:26 Hello my problem hopefully got posted by the lisp paste bot, I try this function with input the annotatnio 15:31:47 and I get this error: Control stack guard page temporarily disabled: proceed with caution, 15:31:55 Control stack exhausted 15:32:10 I don't think it's such a big input. Is there a way to increase the memory used? 15:33:12 well, it's not input, it's your function 15:33:37 stassats: of course it's input, TREE-FIND is an utility 15:34:10 it's faulty, your utility 15:34:22 p0a: your function blows the stack 15:34:26 I know 15:34:32 How can I increase the memory used so that this does not happen 15:34:38 when you find the result you continue to recurse 15:34:39 no, your function is broken 15:34:41 you can fix your function 15:34:46 not memory 15:35:01 p0a: So, just how deep a call back do you expect to have? 15:35:04 Guthur: no I don't 15:35:07 s/back/path/ 15:35:11 no sorry my bad 15:35:19 Zhivago: 50 to 100 cars? 15:35:42 I don't think 50 to 100 levels is going to blow your stack ... are you sure that's all you're doing? 15:35:53 (tree-find 1 '((2))) => Control stack guard page temporarily disabled: proceed with caution 15:36:04 see? 15:36:35 That is not the reason my funciton doesn't work 15:36:47 with fewer depth it didn't work 15:36:49 but I'll fix this 15:37:29 p0a annotated #88505 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88505#2 15:37:49 now it works. stassats it seems you are right, that was the very reason it didn't work 15:37:58 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["reboot.."] 15:38:25 now it works incorrectly 15:38:51 or i'm missing what it should do 15:39:38 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:39:38 it searches a list with an item in the car? 15:39:50 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:39:58 i.e. (tree-find 1 '((1 2 3))) => (1 2 3) 15:40:04 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 15:40:34 That is fine 15:40:49 it returns everything after the car that matches 15:41:04 after/below. whichever way you understand it 15:41:27 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:43:13 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.2.204] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:44:13 -!- swathanthran [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has quit ["rebooting.."] 15:45:08 ....shouldn't it return the item it found, like regular FIND?... 15:45:59 why should it be regular? 15:46:58 stassats: you're right. It should be a super-special, unique butterfly. 15:46:59 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:47:28 (block nil (sublis '() '(((2 1 1))) :key (lambda (x) (when (and (consp x) (eql (car x) 1)) (return x))))) => (1 1) works in sbcl 15:47:46 could call it tree-member 15:47:54 *stassats* likes to abuse functions 15:48:46 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:49:35 stassats i get (((2 1 1))) 15:49:41 not sbcl though 15:50:27 i'm not surprised, that's why i indicated that's sbcl 15:51:16 extra special sbcl code 15:51:55 Guthur: and what implementation? 15:52:03 clisp 15:52:27 (block nil (sublis (list (list (gensym))) '(((2 1 1))) :key (lambda (x) (when (and (consp x) (eql (car x) 1)) (return x))))) works on clisp 15:53:31 indeed it does guru stassats, hehe 15:55:36 and it should have NIL at the very end 15:57:41 nope unless you mean in the cdr of the last element of course 15:57:54 element/cons 15:58:06 no, in the code 15:58:13 (block nil (sublis ...) nil) 15:58:20 oh 15:58:41 to return nil in case it didn't find anything 15:59:24 nice 16:01:01 maybe sbcl should do the same as clisp, i.e. return tree immediately if alist is empty 16:02:14 (block nil (sublis '(()) '(((2 1 1))) :key (lambda (x) (when (and (consp x) (eql (car x) 1)) (return x))))) 16:02:18 that works 16:02:31 u just need something in it 16:02:53 nil will do as well 16:03:36 right, :key in any case will return nil 16:05:26 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-176-95.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has left #lisp 16:05:44 Zoba [n=Zoba@cpe-174-098-078-252.triad.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:06:12 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:06:17 What method should I use to determine if an element is in a list? i.e. to test if 4 is in '(1 2 3 4) 16:06:25 clhs member 16:06:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_member.htm 16:06:34 thank you 16:06:51 Zoba: that's a function, btw :) 16:07:14 sykopomp, I realized that like a second after I pressed enter 16:07:30 thanks though ;) 16:10:35 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:11:19 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 16:11:19 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:11:31 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:12:24 one other question: if I want to do exponents such as 2 to the fourth, what function do I use for that? 16:12:32 clhs expt 16:12:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_exp_e.htm 16:12:43 thanks stassats 16:13:28 minion: tell Zoba clqr 16:13:28 Zoba: please look at clqr: The Common Lisp Quick Reference is a booklet with short descriptions of the symbols defined in the ANSI standard: http://clqr.berlios.de/ 16:13:49 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:33 Zoba: Did you use to be at North Carolina State? 16:22:42 I still am 16:22:42 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:23:09 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:23:34 Zoba: So you have come here for a year or so? 16:24:36 Yeah, and fell out of Lisp programming for the past few months. Are you going to say something like "geez you really shouldn't be asking these questions"? 16:25:15 these are not most interesting questions, but it's ok 16:25:19 -!- lukjad007 is now known as Vetinari_ 16:25:30 Zoba: I was going express my surprise that after a year of studying Lisp, you still don't know how to find out whether an object is a member of a list. 16:25:34 mentioned above quick reference is good thing for finding things 16:25:36 -!- Vetinari_ is now known as lukjad007 16:26:53 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:27:07 beach, yeah...I don't really have any explanation for that 16:28:04 and do you know why MEMBER is better than FIND? 16:28:23 why is that? 16:28:23 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.198.112] has joined #lisp 16:29:36 you can't say that you found NIL in the list (member nil '(nil)) => (NIL) and (find nil '(nil)) => NIL 16:29:51 (find nil '(t)) => NIL too 16:30:13 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AD75.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:39 ah, very nice 16:30:45 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 16:30:46 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:30:58 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-5de570d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:31:03 position, on other sequences. 16:31:47 ASau` [n=user@83.237.166.229] has joined #lisp 16:32:46 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 16:35:35 [Jackal] [n=Jackal@118.94.85.28] has joined #lisp 16:36:20 slash__ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AD75.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:49 mikezor [n=mikael@c-5de570d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:36:49 -!- ASau` [n=user@83.237.166.229] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:38:07 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AD75.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:38:07 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-387782.home.otenet.gr] 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[i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:50:28 literal [n=hinrik@u.nix.is] has joined #lisp 16:50:28 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 16:50:28 Bucciarati [n=buccia@212.45.155.126] has joined #lisp 16:50:28 -!- irc.freenode.net has set mode +oo Xof drewc 16:50:54 dammit gigamonkeys and his raving reviews 16:51:19 I gave in and bought CaW 16:52:11 Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has joined #lisp 16:52:38 the book actually looks good too 16:52:44 just read the second chapter 16:52:52 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-109-82.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:53:04 guaqua: that's my problem with it! 16:53:14 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:53:16 not only did I spend money, I will spend time when it arrives too 16:53:20 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:53:21 neither of which I needed right now 16:53:21 :D 16:54:24 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #lisp 16:54:27 Wizzup_ [n=puzziw@82.92.130.193] has joined #lisp 16:55:15 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:55:45 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 16:55:58 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:57:58 it's a great book, i've enjoyed reading an interview per day since i got it 16:57:58 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:58:02 it's a good book indeed, I love the interviews. really makes you feel you're talking to someone. 16:58:12 raw. 16:58:30 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:58:30 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d0671fa.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:58:30 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-387782.home.otenet.gr] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:58:30 -!- thijso 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16:58:30 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0999.versanet.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:58:30 -!- p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-fpbjbpytmyxyvzng] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:58:30 -!- Bucciarati [n=buccia@212.45.155.126] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:58:30 -!- ubii [n=ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:58:30 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229150158.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:58:30 -!- _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:58:30 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:58:30 -!- l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:58:30 -!- reber [n=reber@78.251.148.147] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:58:30 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:58:30 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:58:30 -!- Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:58:30 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:58:30 -!- lasts [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:58:30 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:58:30 -!- jasber_ [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:58:30 my favourite bit so far is when don knuth admits he doesn't understand everything in the art of computer programming :-) 16:58:48 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 16:58:51 literal [n=hinrik@u.nix.is] has joined #lisp 16:58:52 qebab [i=finnrobi@caracal.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 16:58:56 alexbobp [n=alex@66.112.249.119] has joined #lisp 16:58:57 rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:59:23 p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-bwnttuikhedppyob] has joined #lisp 16:59:49 Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 16:59:51 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 16:59:55 serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d0671fa.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:56 p0a [n=user@athedsl-387782.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:59:56 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229150158.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:59:57 l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 17:00:14 on jwz chapter i laughed out loud twice. whew he mentioned his early "mentor" and when he mentioned the "other programming book" 17:00:22 -!- Phaze is now known as Cum 17:00:27 macdice, which book? 17:00:32 timchen1` [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has joined #lisp 17:00:40 about the zen of programming and then about the idiot co-workers 17:01:09 araujo: coders at work 17:01:16 -!- HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:01:36 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 17:01:49 macdice, aah, don't know that one ... 17:02:07 it's just come out 17:02:10 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:02:13 -!- cmsimon [n=cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has left #lisp 17:02:19 it seems the whole hacker world is talking about it 17:03:33 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.117.31] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:04:41 Xof [n=crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:04:41 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:04:41 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-186.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:04:41 reber [n=reber@78.251.148.147] has joined #lisp 17:04:41 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:04:41 jasber_ [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 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[n=OmniManc@219-89-104-221.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 17:13:43 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp150.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:17:49 p4p4 [n=chatzill@24.121.113.82.net.de.o2.com] has joined #lisp 17:17:49 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:18:05 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:18:48 -!- Wizzup_ [n=puzziw@82.92.130.193] has quit [Client Quit] 17:20:16 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 17:24:36 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:24:48 redblue [i=star@ppp150.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:27:22 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:30:30 guaqua: cow-orkers, rather ;-) 17:30:56 p_l: haha :) great stuff, anyway 17:31:18 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.173] has quit ["so long.."] 17:32:48 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.2.204] has joined #lisp 17:34:39 -!- p4p4 [n=chatzill@24.121.113.82.net.de.o2.com] has left #lisp 17:36:05 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:36:11 so there's this TDD thing going on I'm just reading on re: CaW, but seriously, I don't believe in it 17:36:31 I like tests, I think they're indispensable, especially if you have a language as dynamic as Lisp 17:37:11 but TDD is like "Agile", it's consultantware. It works just fine when you're solving a problem you have solved ten times before and know exactly how to do the 11th 17:37:16 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:37:31 DollyDuplex [n=DollyDup@p5DC7F412.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:40 but I can't just sit and write tests when I have no clue how the code I'm going to write is going to look 17:37:43 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-82-22.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:37:52 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-82-22.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:37:58 mathrick so much real software dev is like 17:38:18 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:38:22 well more maintenance 17:38:31 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:38:33 I know, but it annoys me that it's presented as a religious thing, it's right because it's infallible 17:38:48 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.253.110] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:38:58 ya thats crud 17:39:03 is there any way to set a component of a struct when i don't know its name (i.e. get it as a parameter at runtime)? 17:39:05 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.78.181] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:39:15 mathrick: my thoughts exactly :) 17:39:38 DollyDuplex: receive a closure. 17:40:02 -!- xan [n=xan@dhcp-18-111-36-146.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:40:52 X-Scale [i=email@89-180-157-86.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 17:40:55 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.182.123] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:41:11 and honestly, I think the right approach to testing is Lisp's "TDD", ie. tinker-driven development 17:41:20 tinker with it and poke it at the REPL until it works 17:41:28 then move on 17:42:08 the trick I haven't quite mastered yet is to catch the moment when you reach the tipping point in complexity and really need to start writing a more formal testing harness for the bits that work already 17:42:29 DollyDuplex pasted "struct setting" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88512 17:42:45 pkhuong: then the closure would have the same problem, no? 17:42:53 because otherwise you're gonna lose that context you had when it worked originally and trying to figure out how your state is different now from what it was then is a pain 17:42:59 DollyDuplex: no 17:43:33 well 17:43:37 how does it not work? 17:43:48 you need to be more precise in describing your problems 17:44:05 otherwise the proper answer is "you did it wrong" 17:44:20 swathanthran [n=user@117.204.85.179] has joined #lisp 17:44:21 DollyDuplex annotated #88512 "error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88512#1 17:44:28 DollyDuplex: the problem with your code is the SETF form 17:44:31 which is a macro 17:44:45 and it has to understand the PLACE form in order to work 17:45:02 amnesiac_ [n=amnesiac@charanda.sandino.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:41 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:46:47 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:46:55 mathrick annotated #88512 "With closures" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88512#2 17:47:00 DollyDuplex: try that 17:47:07 tychoish [n=tychoish@97.107.134.101] has joined #lisp 17:47:55 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:48:56 mathrick: hmm, then i'd need one such function per component, no? 17:49:06 yes 17:49:25 heh, i tried (eval (macroexpand `(setf (,setter f) 9))) before and it threw me into an infinite loop (?), but now it seems to work 17:49:51 -!- ejs [n=eugen@95.135.53.207] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:50:15 DollyDuplex: but notice you can also say #'(setf struct-foo) 17:50:19 (funcall (fdefinition `(setf ,setter)) 9 f) 17:50:40 yeah, what stassats said 17:51:11 I wonder if it's fully legal according to spec 17:51:33 ooo, clever 17:51:43 isn't there some icky setf-expander fu going on that makes it undefined whether it's actually required to work? 17:52:32 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 17:53:28 mathrick: not guaranteed to work. 17:53:45 that's what I feared 17:54:08 the whole SETF business is way, way too complex for anyone's good 17:54:26 (setf (slot-value f slot-name) 9) is the way to go 17:54:35 stassats: structs 17:54:56 structs what? 17:55:11 I don't think you can use SLOT-VALUE on structs 17:55:14 chris2 [n=chris@94.216.51.234] has joined #lisp 17:55:17 not according to spec anyway 17:55:25 mathrick: SLOT-VALUE is for structures 17:55:50 clhs slot-value 17:55:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_slt_va.htm 17:56:22 mathrick: structures use classes and slot-value works for classes, what does that tell you 17:56:38 it tells me that you don't know what spec says about whether structs are classes 17:56:49 *the spec 17:56:56 that's easy: don't use structures 17:57:43 mathrick: what does it say? 17:57:44 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:57:58 -!- lasts [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:58:12 p0a Note in particular that the behavior for conditions and structures is not specified. 17:58:16 -!- [Jackal] [n=Jackal@118.94.85.28] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:58:16 p0a: it specifically doesn't require them to be classes 17:58:23 "Note in particular that the behavior for conditions and structures is not specified." 17:58:29 oh, too late 17:58:33 oops sorry ignore that 17:58:39 Guthur: I'm unclear, actually, whether that's for SLOT-VALUE or just the error condition 17:58:41 it was for slot-missing 17:58:43 -!- jasber_ [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:59:13 jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 17:59:16 though if stassats posted it as well it might have worth hehe 17:59:19 -!- swathanthran [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:59:33 don't trust me blindly 18:00:03 trust him on that 18:00:48 right, i see no reason slot-value shouldn't work on structures 18:00:58 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:01:31 hmm 18:01:34 "The specific behavior depends on object's metaclass. An error is never signaled if object has metaclass standard-class." 18:01:43 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:01:54 stassats: it's the provision that they don't have to be classes. But SLOT-VALUE doesn' 18:02:00 t restrict it only to classes 18:02:05 so I guess it should work 18:02:07 slot-value doesn't have to work on structures 18:02:15 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-387782.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 18:02:17 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:26 there is an awful lot of mentions of slots in defstruct for it not to work 18:03:02 piso: reading the spec for SLOT-VALUE and the definition for 'object', I don't actually see anything to say it could not work 18:03:21 although it seems that SBCL is non-conforming in its SLOT-MISSING handling 18:03:59 "The consequences are unspecified if object has any other metaclass..." i.e. other than standard-object 18:04:18 *standard-class 18:04:24 it seems a bit unclear as to whether they are talking about slot-value or slot-missing there, piso 18:04:27 (or built-in-class, but that's not relevant) 18:04:31 "defstruct without a :type option defines a class [...]. The metaclass of structure instances is structure-class." 18:04:40 this is in clhs slot-value 18:05:01 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has quit [Client Quit] 18:05:09 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.2.204] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:05:14 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-82-22.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 18:05:15 piso: it in the section "Exceptional situations" 18:05:17 piso, yes, but read the section heading .. it talks about slot-missing at that spot 18:05:28 it's unclear, but it seems to me that it's specifically about SLOT-MISSING handling 18:05:34 or well .. "exceptional sit.", yeah 18:05:36 -!- amnesiac_ is now known as amnesiac 18:05:40 especially given the previous two sentences 18:07:40 mathrick pasted "Error on SLOT-MISSING with STANDARD-CLASS" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88514 18:08:00 if I can read at all, the spec says it should NOT error out here 18:08:01 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:08:34 well, abcl signals an error on slot-value on structures 18:09:16 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.2.204] has joined #lisp 18:09:18 mathrick: bar, not baz 18:09:22 that's consistent with the fact piso wrote it 18:09:27 heh 18:09:28 heh 18:09:45 piso: I meant to write baz 18:09:50 milanj [n=milan@93.87.117.31] has joined #lisp 18:09:54 otherwise it'd hardly be SLOT-MISSING 18:10:17 well, you can't define the slot as bar and set it as baz 18:10:25 although there should be 'foo in the line that has FIND-CLASS 18:10:43 piso: "An error is never signaled if object has metaclass standard-class." 18:11:01 clhs on slot-missing says it signals an error 18:11:09 mathrick: you defined the slot bar, not baz 18:11:10 that passage is really confusing, because either I don't understand what it refers to, or it conflicts with the definition of SLOT-MISSING 18:11:15 piso: so? 18:11:24 the slot baz is in fact missing 18:11:27 read the whole section 18:11:30 there is no such slot 18:11:32 "An error is never signaled if object has metaclass standard-class." 18:11:34 again 18:11:41 they are talking about throwing an error or not based on the return value of slot-missing .. not missing slots (via slot-value) directly 18:12:02 clhs is hard, let's go read r5rs 18:12:46 that bit is just badly written 18:12:51 yeah, then split that into multiple specs yet again, stassats :P 18:13:06 lnostdal: there's actually nothing in it to say that's the case 18:13:07 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:13:21 if it was intended to be read this way, it should've said so 18:13:32 mathrick, it talks about "return" or "ignored" 18:13:42 ..then points out "the specific" 18:14:03 no, it specifies "return" or "ignored" fully on the spot 18:14:11 someone should just draw a state-machine :) 18:14:14 "(If slot-missing returns in this case, any values are ignored.)" 18:14:38 -!- morphling [n=stefan@89.13.35.179] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:14:44 it should've said "any values are ignored, but see below" if indeed the next paragraph was to modify the reading 18:14:58 morphling [n=stefan@89.13.35.179] has joined #lisp 18:15:19 my reading would be that this talks about the specific behaviour of SLOT-MISSING 18:15:36 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 18:15:43 which is always to error for built-ins, never for standard-classes, dunno lol for everything else 18:17:11 "The default method on slot-missing signals an error of type error." 18:17:21 clhs slot-exists-p 18:17:21 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-162.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:17:24 that's the error you're seeing 18:17:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_slt_ex.htm 18:17:40 so, it's about slots too, it doesn't say anything about classes at all 18:17:47 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 18:17:51 Affected By: defclass, defstruct 18:18:12 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss320_w.htm 18:18:13 so, i assume all slot functions on slots will work on structures 18:18:20 so it seems it's actually about SLOT-VALUE as a whole 18:18:29 which is both terribly confusing and factually wrong 18:18:36 no 18:18:41 any implementation that does not implement slot-value vs. defstruct can fuck off anyway .. heh 18:18:42 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-162.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:18:45 well, maybe confusing 18:18:55 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:19:11 piso: you can't say it "never signals an error" and then define conditions for which an error is signalled! 18:19:25 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-162.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:19:28 "The default method on slot-missing signals an error of type error." 18:19:35 yes 18:19:40 the default method 18:19:48 well, clhs never was famous for being consistent 18:19:48 you can write your own methods, too 18:19:51 the page talks about cases where the user has defined his own slot-missing method 18:20:03 which directly conflicts the statement of "an error is never signalled if the object's metaclass is STANDARD-CLASS" 18:20:30 slot-value doesn't directly signal an error; it calls slot-missing 18:20:34 yeah 18:20:46 the default method of slot-missing signals an error 18:20:57 but you can override that behavior by defining your own method 18:21:28 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-59-41.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:28 your own method on slot-missing, that is 18:21:38 if you read clhs 10 or 20 time it starts to make sense :) 18:21:44 *times 18:21:50 does anyone here work at a day-job that uses lisp? i'm curious to know what it's like (or if it's just as frustrating as working in the usual commercial languages) 18:22:05 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-162.netcologne.de] has quit [Success] 18:22:29 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:22:34 i think there is very very few day jobs that use lisp 18:22:44 it's mostly night work 18:22:57 seasonal, too 18:22:59 hhh is that when cllhs is most clear 18:23:03 clhs* 18:23:10 in the spring 18:23:44 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:24:04 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-162.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:24:10 the point here is that for standard-objects, slot-value has to follow the protocol with slot-missing 18:24:30 for structure-objects, depending on the implementation, slot-value might just signal an error on its own 18:24:44 or it might just work :) 18:24:59 ASau` [n=user@83.237.166.229] has joined #lisp 18:25:05 but the slot-missing stuff won't be there 18:25:08 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:25:17 (for structure-objects, that is) 18:25:27 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-162.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:26:15 so conforming user code can't count on slot-value working with structures 18:26:54 so, there is no sane way to access slots of structures at run-time? 18:27:16 "not specified" talks about slot-missing! 18:27:24 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-162.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:27:42 there do seem to be companies that hire lisp programmers -- but maybe just a few in the world. ITA Software (airline stuff), Alphacet (trading software), Net Fonds (trading software) are the only names i know of 18:27:49 stassats: not portably, by slot name 18:28:16 you can of course use the readers and writers defined by defstruct 18:28:16 -!- ASau` [n=user@83.237.166.229] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:28:28 where is this mentioned, piso ? 18:28:30 raghu` [n=user@210.212.50.14] has joined #lisp 18:28:35 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-162.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:28:39 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:28:40 clhs slot-value 18:28:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_slt_va.htm 18:28:42 well, i don't use structures anyway, so i shouldn't care 18:28:44 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-59-41.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:28:59 piso, the words "not specified" there talks about slot-missing, not slot-value 18:29:11 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-162.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:29:15 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-162.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:29:22 "The consequences are unspecified if object has any other metaclass--an error might or might not be signaled in this situation. Note in particular that the behavior for conditions and structures is not specified." 18:29:56 yes, and this talks about slot-missing 18:30:04 the consequences are unspecified for any other metaclass than standard-class 18:30:11 no, that paragraph is about slot-value 18:30:14 no 18:30:16 lol .. 18:30:47 there is no way to misunderstand that particular detail about the text 18:30:50 "The specific behavior depends on object's metaclass." refers to the specific behavior of slot-value 18:30:58 no, it clearly does not 18:31:06 ve_ [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:31:18 ok, suit yourself 18:31:28 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-162.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:31:38 that entire section has been about the slot-missing protocol 18:32:42 one more try 18:32:45 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-48.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:32:46 "The generic function slot-missing is invoked when an attempt is made to access a slot in an object whose metaclass is standard-class and the slot of the name slot-name is not a name of a slot in that class." 18:32:54 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 18:32:55 slot-value vs. a slot that exists is _not_ an exceptional situation to begin with 18:33:04 note "whose metaclass is standard-class" 18:33:07 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-162.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:33:11 yes, i know exactly what that means 18:33:21 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-162.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:33:22 slot-missing is not invoked otherwise 18:33:39 it might or might not be 18:33:59 i.e. slot-missing is not invoked for structures, unless they happen to have standard-class as their metaclass 18:34:18 which might or might not be true 18:34:35 but it's in the area of unspecified behavior 18:34:59 so conforming programs can't count on the consequences 18:35:03 of what? 18:35:13 of calling slot-value on structures 18:35:17 -!- ve_ [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["leaving"] 18:35:21 no, it does not even mention slot-value 18:35:43 it might help to look at both pages together (slot-value and slot-missing) 18:36:07 that's consistent with slot-value not working on defstruct :type list 18:36:56 why? .. slot-missing isn't even there in the picture if the slot is there 18:37:01 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:37:22 (no "exceptional situation" to begin with; i.e., no "slot-missing protocol" working or not working) 18:37:55 if you read clhs 10 or 20 time it starts to make sense :) <-- I've read it many times, albeit not back-to-back. And most of the time, it's really good and sensible. But that doesn't change the fact that some chapters are just worse than others, and this is one of these 18:38:19 no, this is pretty good, compared to pathnames, for instance 18:38:32 pathnames has systemic design 18:38:43 this doesn't, it was just badly put to words 18:38:45 err 18:38:48 systemic issues 18:41:10 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 18:41:23 -!- raghu` [n=user@210.212.50.14] has left #lisp 18:41:46 the point here is that for standard-objects, slot-value has to follow the protocol with slot-missing <-- that's a very sensible specification, and quite plausibly what was intended, but it's still *not* what that passage says. If you say "never signals an error", it means never, not "signals unless overriden by another method" 18:41:57 and that's my complaint 18:42:11 aaanywho, that horse is dead, I'll shut up now 18:43:30 slot-value (in that case) doesn't signal an error; it calls a different function. If that function signals an error, it's not slot-value's fault (the user should have defined a method on slot-missing, damnit!) 18:43:57 but the default is to error! So the spec is perfectly aware that *most of the time*, an error will be signalled! 18:44:05 that is very, very far from "never" 18:44:18 never means "it's against the spec if doing that results in an error" 18:44:39 not "it might do things or some other things according to a certain protocol" 18:45:13 saying never here is factually wrong 18:45:43 well, I probably shouldn't fight too hard to defend the clarity of the spec, but I've learned that it doesn't do you much good to fight with it 18:46:14 (fight with the spec, that is) 18:46:28 piso: but we began with the very opposite, trying to discern what wouldn't be against the spec, to act accordingly :) 18:46:45 you can't really "fight the spec" if there are two possible readings of it 18:46:47 sure, we all begin with the best of intentions 18:47:25 -!- pbusser3 [n=peter@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:48:03 it's really much clearer if you also consider the mop spec 18:48:07 hey, neat. You might think that (with-slots (a) object a) for a standard-class object would be the same as (slot-value object 'a), wouldn't you? 18:48:16 http://www.lisp.org/mop/dictionary.html#slot-value-using-class 18:49:45 piso: sure, you can recover the original meaning from many things by careful analysis and cross-comparison. I just happen to be reading http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/8974/title/Math_Trek__A_Prayer_for_Archimedes. But it really shouldn't be necessary in a spec, of all things :) 18:50:48 specs are documents to be read by people 18:51:59 Archimedes was overall awesome, he was the guy who had the balls to say that magnitudes and numbers can be compared and operated on, and that was something that was taboo for centuries before and after him 18:53:09 Krystof: so where's the catch? As far as I'm aware, the only difference is what happens with regards to the number of times things are invoked 18:53:29 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss320_w.htm 18:53:53 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 18:53:59 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:54:06 that issue, while not an official part of the spec, sheds some light on the thinking of the authors of the spec 18:54:47 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:55:00 hmm, but why slot-exists-p says it's affected by defstruct? 18:55:30 piso: I linked to it and said the same thing before :) 18:55:31 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:55:38 "Specify that the consequences are unspecified if any of the functions SLOT-VALUE, SETF of SLOT-VALUE, SLOT-BOUNDP, or SLOT-MAKUNBOUND are called on objects of any metaclass other than STANDARD-CLASS or BUILT-IN-CLASS. An error might be signaled in this situation. Note in particular that the behavior of these functions on condition objects and objects of metaclass STRUCTURE-CLASS is unspecified. 18:55:40 " 18:55:49 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:55:49 Minor Q: why is it unworthy of documentation that #( doesn't eval? 18:55:54 mathrick: sorry, I missed your mention of that 18:56:11 caoliver: ? 18:56:24 please expand your inquiry 18:56:37 I.e. #(a b c) doesn't try to evaluate a, b, and c. 18:56:40 (ENLARGE YOUR QUESTION TODAY!) 18:57:03 caoliver: oh, because it's literal syntax, I think it's documented to be 18:57:10 stassats: "Clarify that the function SLOT-EXISTS-P may be called with any object as its first argument, returning true if the object has a slot of the given name and false otherwise." 18:57:34 I'm reading Pat Stein's blog, and realized I was likely to get bitten by the same thing, and went off to read about sharpsign-left paren in the CLHS. 18:57:51 so slot-exists-p seems to be disconnected from other slot-* 18:58:16 yeah 18:58:39 i think people are discussing and mixing 3-4 different things .. that particular section in the slot-value page talks about slot-missing or "the slot-missing protocol"; not slot-value .. don't draw conclusions "from" slot-missing "back to" slot-value .. (i have no idea if slot-value works vs. structs wrt. the spec, but it's not mentioned there) 18:59:33 mathrick: no, the spec explicitly says that the consequences are undefined in the with-slots case if a is not a slot in object 18:59:46 no slot-missing protocol, no caveats about standard-class, just undefined 18:59:47 I'm rereading CLHS 2.4.8.3, and I don't get anything beyond the examples justifying non-evaluation. 19:00:00 Krystof: cute 19:00:01 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:00:14 I can play backquote tricks, but it seems like a gotcha.' 19:00:16 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:00:31 ... to trap the unwary. 19:01:05 caoliver: It says #( be used to designate a vector. That tells you that a b c won't be evaled, no? 19:01:12 Krystof: but it's conforming (although not required) to expand with-slots to use slot-value (and hence the slot-missing protocol), no? 19:01:14 caoliver: well, it's not actually stated anywhere, but logically, you can't expect it to eval 19:01:23 Why not? 19:01:32 caoliver: A as value only makes sense during execution time 19:01:44 #() is a literal syntax, ie. it happens at read-time 19:01:52 so A doesn't mean anything at that point 19:01:59 it doesn't have a value or binding 19:02:05 Ok. 19:02:16 mathrick: wel, it could expand into (vector a b c) 19:02:22 Bravo. 19:02:32 stassats: yes, I was just typing that 19:02:42 Krystof: in fact, "The macro with-slots translates an appearance of the slot name as a variable into a call to slot-value." 19:03:01 so it -is- required 19:04:08 piso: arguably :-), but you could e.g. have a lexical optimizer to inline _that_ slot-value under the assumption that a is always a slot in the object 19:04:13 It seems backward. Why expect it to eval unless it says it does? 19:04:19 caoliver: so you're right in that it's a gotcha on the part of the spec, although it's not actually inaccurate anywhere if you already know it's the case :) 19:04:23 I mention this only out of language-lawyerly perversity 19:04:30 :) 19:04:37 mathrick: I wouldn't expect it to eval unless it says so? 19:05:08 schme: that is another valid view 19:05:08 Like #. it clearly says it evals. 19:05:12 so you expect it. 19:05:28 caoliver asked the wrong question, actually 19:05:42 it's not about evalling at read-time 19:05:57 it's about whether it reads in literal symbols or variable references 19:06:02 and it happens to be the former 19:06:09 yeah I guess. 19:06:22 well I'll go to bed then 19:06:26 if it was defined to be equivalent to (vector a b c), still no eval but the opposite effect 19:06:45 schme: night 19:07:11 serichse1 [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d0671fa.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:23 well, kthxbai anyway 19:09:34 incwolf [n=phil@cpe-76-172-228-179.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:10:56 kthxbai? thats nearly as long as ok thanks bye 19:10:57 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:11:16 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:11:17 -!- nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:11:19 Still seem it ought to be explicitly spelled out somewhere rather than left as an exercise. 19:11:20 less cryptic to, i had to hit google for it hehe 19:11:30 s/seem/seems/ 19:11:43 caoliver: #(...) is primarily the general print representation of vectors; it's just a nice (kind of coincidental, or perhaps better: orthogonal) feature that this representation can be READ back in 19:11:57 it's like half as long, in terms of characters 19:12:03 Ok. THAT makes perfect sense to me. 19:12:36 caoliver: In particular, #() is not a short-hand syntax for VECTOR (as #' is for FUNCTION) 19:13:23 it's (apply 'vector '()) 19:13:23 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:13:24 Perhaps, in an ideal world, these two issues would not be conflated 19:13:46 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:14:00 It's a bear trap for the nu-b though. Does nu-b-ism ever end for lisp? 19:14:53 caoliver: When you (at least superficially) know the majority of the language, you'll come to appreciate how well engineered the Common Lisp language really is 19:14:54 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:14:59 caoliver if it ever does they might just sit down an revise the spec 19:15:05 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:15:05 Ha! 19:15:07 caoliver: Always remember that incredibly smart people have worked on it over a decade 19:15:33 ...and still get into arguments about it. 19:16:11 that's orthogonal :) 19:16:25 there are always different set of priorities and goals to pick 19:16:29 *sets 19:17:02 Even though I know scheme better than CL, I do very much appreciate the brains that got stuffed into the language. 19:17:05 saikat_ [n=saikat@rescomp-09-132118.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:17:32 I just trip over something now and then, and I need a thwack on the head. 19:17:33 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:17:44 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:18:04 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d0671fa.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:18:14 caoliver: I don't think that will ever end. Cf. the above discussion about SLOT-VALUE, and visit KMP 19:18:17 's site sometimes 19:18:18 I think much more brains got stuffed into Scheme 19:18:31 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:18:33 his essay are very enlightening as to whether you can ever be "right" about a language 19:19:54 I find nikodemus' old sig dead on: Schemer: "Buddha is small, clean, and serious." Lispnik: "Buddha is big, has hairy armpits,and laughs." 19:19:55 if you have something as big and complex, yet seemingly working as CL, you can never know everything inside-out, even if you were an author of the spec 19:20:13 -!- DollyDuplex [n=DollyDup@p5DC7F412.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [""(quit)""] 19:20:24 mathrick kmp? 19:20:30 Kent Pitman 19:20:39 Kent M. Pitman to be exact 19:20:46 tcr: that's a t-shirt. :P 19:21:01 tcr: heh, I have a buddhist friend, and he likes to emphasise that, while the Karmapa is a buddha, it still smells after he gets out of the restroom 19:21:04 -!- incwolf_ [n=phil@cpe-76-172-228-179.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:21:23 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:21:49 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:22:32 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:22:35 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:23:05 A more visceral interpretation of mudball vs. diamond. 19:23:16 incwolf_ [n=phil@cpe-76-172-228-179.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:24:55 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-64-32.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:25:36 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.56.159.173] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:25:37 mathrick does he not wash himself afterwards? 19:25:51 marioxcc [n=user@200.56.159.173] has joined #lisp 19:27:25 Guthur: *it* smells, not he smells 19:28:30 -!- jrockway_ is now known as jrockway 19:28:40 oh ya i see 19:28:41 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-40-86-108.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 19:28:48 sorry, indeed 19:29:45 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:30:17 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:30:30 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 19:33:06 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:33:19 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:34:12 -!- pragma_ [n=pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit [Client Quit] 19:34:42 pragma_ [n=pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has joined #lisp 19:34:42 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 19:34:57 -!- incwolf [n=phil@cpe-76-172-228-179.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:35:40 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229150158.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 19:37:20 so anyway, I just finished reading http://www.gigamonkeys.com/blog/2009/10/05/coders-unit-testing.html, and I feel vindicated that the XP inventor "himself" fell prey to his own religion 19:37:35 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:37:42 akopa pasted "Shift/Reset in Direct and Curried CPS" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88520 19:37:50 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:39:00 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-104-146.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:37 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-13-171.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:41:07 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-162.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:43:49 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-162.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:43:58 Sad thing is these days OO seems more about Booch, Beck, Fowler, and Martin than anything Kay et al advocated. 19:44:14 akopa [n=user@68-117-91-190.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:44:40 Kay's message passing, right? 19:44:40 caoliver: that is directly attributable to Java 19:44:49 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 19:44:49 And C++ 19:45:05 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-40-86-108.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 19:45:45 when you have a mediocre language designed for mediocre programmers, it's a given they will fail understand the art and instead turn to repeating slavishly something they've seen at their master's workshop 19:45:49 I'd like to pretend that those languages don't exist. 19:45:55 <``Erik> heh, I left c++ to do C, despised java since it's inception, objc is slightly less bad... :( 19:46:10 incwolf [n=phil@cpe-76-172-228-179.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:46:17 *``Erik* is annoyed that he can't do [obj meth1 meth2] in objc 19:46:21 C isn't a bad glue, but I'd not want to build anything big with it. 19:46:24 they might not really understand it, but the master did it that way, always spitting twice on the chisel before working, so they do too 19:46:36 coyo [n=alex@ppp-70-129-141-101.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:43 And wind up with rusty chisels. 19:47:00 <``Erik> caoliver: "cost of business" :( 19:47:07 that's because they didn't notice he was also careful to wipe it afterwards 19:47:35 anyway, "design patterns" is something I'd nuke from the orbit if I could 19:47:54 *``Erik* is watching several million a year being blown for 8 years now at work because they like spitting a lot on the shiniest new chisel they can find :( 19:48:11 where what who? 19:48:22 Tell me so I can avoid them. 19:48:32 <``Erik> you already avoid them. 19:48:32 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:48:34 <``Erik> :D 19:48:48 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:48:51 <_3b> hey, keeping it down to 'millions a year' is doing good for a lot of places :p 19:49:16 Snoracle? 19:49:21 <``Erik> "lets rewrite our old C base in ... java! cuz that's awesome!" 19:49:27 <``Erik> (us dod) 19:49:38 <``Erik> <-- slipping in lisp where he can, quietly 19:49:41 old C base? you mean FORTRAN base? 19:49:44 Ah! Defense or sub-contractor was my next guess. 19:49:48 <``Erik> well, mostly C, some fortran 19:50:06 eh, s/FORTRAN/ADA/ 19:50:13 <``Erik> (disturbingly, the fortran is a mix of f77 and f90) 19:50:51 <``Erik> I write C mostly, shake my fist at the damn punks pushing c++ into my codebase, and am working to usurp the entire java initiative O:-) 19:51:07 <``Erik> and I drink because of it all O.O 19:51:14 G'luck with that, mate! 19:52:15 tough life. 19:52:44 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 19:52:49 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:53:20 oh yes, that's the article I was looking for: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000054.html 19:53:27 that's what design patterns are 19:53:43 sykopomp: I'm over here! 19:53:48 (the first two paragraphs or so) 19:56:22 -!- incwolf_ [n=phil@cpe-76-172-228-179.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:56:48 incwolf_ [n=phil@cpe-76-172-228-179.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:57:54 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:58:29 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:59:55 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:00:11 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:00:53 ``Erik: where're you managing to wedge lisp in? 20:03:04 xan [n=xan@dhcp-18-111-36-146.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 20:06:12 *p_l* would take fortran/ada/c over Java easily. 20:07:11 is java really that horrible? .. /me hasn't used it in ages 20:07:35 ..i mean, compared to e.g. C it has GC and doesn't go SIGSEGV and, stuff? .. heh 20:07:57 <``Erik> if I told you, ralith, I'd have to ... uh,... 20:08:13 But it tends to bring along all the bletcherous J2EE cruft in common use. 20:08:16 -!- incwolf [n=phil@cpe-76-172-228-179.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:08:26 <``Erik> I have a prototype server, they don't know it's a lithp backend :) 20:08:32 lnostdal: my main problem seems to be with Java the language and certain libraries 20:08:55 I guess my loathing is mainly enterprise s'ware in general and the mentality behind it. 20:08:56 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:09:06 ok 20:09:09 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:09:11 -!- akopa [n=user@68-117-91-190.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:09:34 lnostdal: Java is stupid, stupid, stupid 20:09:49 Java does have a bit of "you can't handle the truth" behind it though. 20:09:50 JVM itself is quite nice, except for CLASSPATH 20:10:05 it probably beats C in strings, which is really enough for a language to win over C, but then it loses it all by being so damn fucking stupid 20:10:34 it doesn't have even the most rudimentary preprocessor, it's verbose like hell, has no function pointers 20:11:44 dsteuber [n=david@c-68-37-230-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:45 What precludes writing a preprocessor? 20:11:57 caoliver: it's not a bit, that damn thing is *built* on you can't handle the truth 20:12:05 there are quite a lot of existing preprocessors, afaik 20:12:06 caoliver: it wouldn't be standard for starters 20:12:21 Java the language has no preprocessor. End of story 20:12:24 usually making it into an extension of lanuage, like AspectJ 20:12:55 AspectJ actually fiddles with bytecode 20:13:06 so it sits on the other end of Java's intestine 20:14:17 psismondi [n=user@d24-150-10-209.home.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:24 p_l: but you still can't have conditional compilation in Java 20:14:37 incwolf [n=phil@cpe-76-172-228-179.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:14:43 <``Erik> lack of sprintf() is annoying, the jvm seems neat (haven't done much other than boot clojure yet), but the "java enterprise" mentality... disturbs me 20:15:04 so the awesome enterprise-y libs like Log4J are all if(!sys.DEBUG) { log4j.log("foo"); } 20:15:21 ``Erik: you mean "SOAP & XML everywhere"? 20:15:30 <``Erik> soap and xml are so yesterday, dude 20:15:38 that, and the acronym creep it has everywhere 20:15:39 <``Erik> we need, uh, rio! and ORM! and ... 20:15:48 <``Erik> oh, but everything must start with j, damnit 20:16:15 <``Erik> every last aspect must be made into a universal "does everything" package that does nothing well 20:16:15 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:16:17 rio? 20:16:23 you can't look at any XYZ without also learning about ABC, DEF, K4J, which in turn use EJB, ORM and... 20:16:35 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-109-82.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 20:16:48 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:16:56 *p_l* looks at ORMs and decides that the next app he does, won't use any normal ORM 20:17:12 does get-universal-time return the unix epoch? 20:17:18 Pardon my ignorance here (and off topic). But my nick seems to not be registered anymore. How do I register it? I'm on a Mac using Colloquy, so I am insulated from the IRC protocol. 20:17:38 Ralith: no 20:17:48 clhs get-universal-time 20:17:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_un.htm 20:18:02 dsteuber: send private message 'help' to nick NickServ 20:18:08 I see minion is doing well. 20:18:10 yeah, looks like since 1900 :/ 20:18:23 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:18:29 Ralith: and why's that a problem? It's one constant away 20:19:19 I wonder if all the ORM hair is the main motivation behind all the noSQL stuff that happening. 20:19:19 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:19:29 s/that/thats/ 20:19:40 s/thats/that's/ 20:19:56 *caoliver* needs a new brain. 20:20:44 mathrick: it's not a big problem; I'm just looking for the most convenient way to get a universal time into postgresql as a SQL time. 20:20:52 heh. My plan is to use a mapping between CLOS objects and results from database, but use a lot of stored procedures instead of generating SQL from objects 20:20:58 -!- psismondi [n=user@d24-150-10-209.home.cgocable.net] has left #lisp 20:21:47 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:21:51 Ralith: dude, it's one subtraction 20:22:00 mathrick: thus "it's not a big problem." 20:22:01 jesus. 20:22:06 O.o 20:23:07 caoliver: nosql looks like a good idea, but then you discover you need reports run against the thing, and shit hits the fan 20:23:29 I'm not exactly sure which side I'm on in this, both look equally gross 20:23:49 maybe I'll succeed at making cl-perec do my bidding, it'd be nice to have a working ORM for once 20:25:11 -!- dsteuber [n=david@c-68-37-230-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:25:18 When I did RADIUS for an ISP many moons ago, the database was a key/value store with s-exprs on both sides. Arbitrary reports were pretty easy, but we were a mom-and-pop, so there was too much data to graind. 20:25:19 psismondi [n=user@d24-150-10-209.home.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:37 dsteuber [n=david@c-68-37-230-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:37 s/was too/wasn't too/ 20:25:43 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@88.73.225.114] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:26:09 RADIUS as in the authentication server for the wifi standard, may they die a painful death? 20:26:30 mathrick: RADIUS is older than wifi, it's just one of the methods that can be used in EAP 20:26:34 -!- incwolf_ [n=phil@cpe-76-172-228-179.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:26:51 I see. I'll narrow down my hate to just EAP parts of it then 20:27:06 -!- dsteuber [n=david@c-68-37-230-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:27:14 RADIUS used to be reasonably clean back when Livingston created it for their terminal servers, but it got a lot of junk shoved into it. 20:27:26 -!- chris2 [n=chris@94.216.51.234] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:27:31 My encounters were pre-EAP. 20:27:55 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:00 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-054-175.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:35 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:29:49 ASau` [n=user@83.237.166.229] has joined #lisp 20:30:28 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:31:02 -!- angerman [n=angerman@138.246.7.41] has quit [] 20:32:08 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 20:32:26 Hey newbie here...is this a good place to ask about a specific lisp implementation (ccl/clozure)? #ccl is kind of dead. 20:32:52 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:34:05 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 20:34:18 good night 20:34:29 (quit byeeeeee) 20:34:31 um 20:34:37 -!- serichse1 [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d0671fa.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["byeeeee"] 20:35:02 -!- psismondi [n=user@d24-150-10-209.home.cgocable.net] has left #lisp 20:39:50 -!- ASau` [n=user@83.237.166.229] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:40:02 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:40:59 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:41:35 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:42:22 Hi 20:42:40 angerman [n=angerman@138.246.7.42] has joined #lisp 20:43:40 So I'm grovelling my way through ncurses.h using cffi, when suddenly, I see that the constants ACS_ULCORNER etc are all set to 0 in the lisp. 20:44:01 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-160-169-230.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:44:38 These specific #define's in ncurses.h are C macros for entries in a global array. 20:45:21 Of course I have (flag "-lncurses") in the grovelling file, so compilation goes without problems... 20:45:35 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 20:45:40 Greetings. 20:45:44 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-162.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:45:44 Any fellow cffi grovellers that can shed some light on this? 20:45:48 Hey 20:46:18 There are with-gensyms macros all over the place, is there one that is particularly full featured that is public, or does everyone just roll their own? 20:46:57 I think alexandria has one 20:47:15 *_3b* uses the one from alexandria if any 20:47:50 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:47:53 I guess that most accept alexandria as a source for utilities, no? 20:47:53 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-162.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:47:54 Ok, thanks 20:48:22 ASau` [n=user@83.237.166.229] has joined #lisp 20:48:25 good quality utilities even 20:48:33 Yeah, my perception is that alexandria is pretty good, I just haven't really used it. People seem to recommend it frequently. 20:48:42 according to their website as well 20:48:54 <_3b> not everyone, but it currently seems one of the more popular ones among people who do accept that sort of thing 20:49:23 I think it's a good effort to use alexandria instead of just rolling your own 20:49:31 faux` [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 20:49:32 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:49:33 Wait, I just mixed two sentences 20:49:38 <_3b> some people are allergic to dependencies :p 20:49:43 I think alexandria is a good effort 20:50:01 I'm slightly allergic to dependencies, but I'm taking meds for that. :-) 20:50:18 *_3b* tends to use cffi, so i get alexandria anyway :) 20:50:31 Yeah, well, either depend on good external stuff like alexandria, or implement it yourself in 1000s of ways (maybe poorly) 20:50:41 <_3b> (at least i think that is what i use that depended on it) 20:51:04 Yes, same here. cffi uses alexandria, so I already have it installed anyway 20:51:36 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:52:03 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-104-221.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:52:12 Any grovelling tips? 20:53:37 Another cffi grovel question: I don't quite get how to use (cvar ...) in the grovelling file either. I tried all sorts of combinations, but compilation fails. 20:55:37 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 20:57:57 Sikander: I'm not sure about cffi-grovel, I have only used SWIG and it too had some problems with certain macros 20:57:59 <_3b> Sikander: can you check the generated C file and see if it looks like it should be generating the right code? 20:58:18 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:58:49 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:59:21 The biggest problem I have with dependencies having the dependency for a single operator, like in this case. 20:59:50 chris2_ [n=chris@94.216.55.128] has joined #lisp 21:00:34 ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 21:00:44 <_3b> Sikander: did you see http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Groveller-Syntax.html ? 21:00:57 _3b: It seems so. Although, it casts ACS_ULCORNER to an int64_t while it's an unsigned long. 21:01:00 -!- jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:01:00 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-054-175.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:01:10 _3b: Yes, have. Still can't get cvar to work 21:01:30 -!- angerman [n=angerman@138.246.7.42] has quit [] 21:01:39 p_l: What do you generally do in cases where SWIG fails? 21:01:45 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-164-161.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:59 -!- ASau` [n=user@83.237.166.229] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:02:11 tmh: You can copy/paste the utils from alexandria. It explicitly allows you to do so 21:02:49 tmh: Unless you suffer from NIH 21:02:54 tmh: ;) 21:03:02 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:03:23 Heh, a little. 21:03:55 Well, can't help you there, mate 21:03:56 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:04:03 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:04:09 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:04:16 Isn't the first step to recovery admitting you have a problem? :-) 21:05:36 tmh: Yeah, but it went too easily. I think you're simulating... 21:05:36 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:05:37 ;) 21:05:51 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:06:08 *tmh* chuckles 21:06:52 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:07:07 Sikander: I copy the contents of the header into SWIG and edit offending parts 21:07:27 had to do so for TC 21:07:48 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:07:53 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:08:08 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:10:06 Dammit, that would mean I'd have to dump the entire global (extern) array and hardcode it into lisp. I thought the fun of grovelling was that it's less work, and more portable. 21:11:00 have you tried :READ-ONLY? 21:12:03 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:12:15 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:13:17 I tried (constant (+upper-left-corner+ "ACS_ULCORNER")) as a test. I also tried it with constantenum, since there's a large number of related constants. 21:13:24 How would the :read-only thing work? 21:13:43 are you referring to using cvar? 21:19:31 -!- macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["ca suffit"] 21:19:47 Ok, my meds are kicking in, I'm using alexandria. 21:19:48 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:20:34 yes, cvar with :read-only is what I'm referring to. 21:20:36 After all, ACS_ULCORNER is not a constant, so it doesn't make sense to grovel for it as a constant. 21:20:36 *Sikander* congratulates tmh on overcoming a severe problem. 21:21:06 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:21:43 Don't think me, yet. I'm going to fork it and make it better. (just kidding :-) 21:22:02 lichtblau: well, it's a defined value. Just that it's defined in an extern array... Even if grovelling for it as a constant is conceptually wrong, it should still work, no? 21:22:12 lichtblau: that and I can't get cvar to work :( 21:23:49 lichtblau: I think I understand what you mean. Probably the array isn't initialised yet when the compiled, grovelled C file writes the lisp file 21:24:15 anyway, you're not even saying what error you get, so that makes it hard to speculate 21:24:48 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:24:50 No error as I already said, all are just defined as 0. That makes the last comment very likely 21:25:00 do you know how cvar works? 21:25:22 hmm... ACS_ULCORNER... it's probably some "character" to generate a lower-left corner graphic or something like that? 21:25:43 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:26:25 Example from the manual: (cvar ("errno" errno) errno-values) could possibly be converted to (cvar ("some-global-variable-in-C" lisp-name) :int) if the type of the variable was an int, right? 21:26:56 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 21:26:58 p_l: Yeah, it's supposed to be an unsigned long, which is probably interpreted as a wide character or such 21:27:00 Another cffi grovel question: I don't quite get how to use (cvar ...) in the grovelling file either. I tried all sorts of combinations, but compilation fails. 21:27:25 lichtblau: I I thought you were refering to why grovelling as a constant doesn't work. My bad 21:27:29 does it return 0 or does it fail? 21:27:50 Sikander: it's some kind of pointer to a control sequence that isn't determined till runtime 21:27:55 the 0 is when using (constant ...). All the constants are then defined as 0 21:28:31 p_l: Yeah, that's what I already thought, the array isn't filled until after some init function runs 21:29:09 Sikander: the array is initialized based on terminfo data 21:29:10 lichtblau: When using (cvar ...) it fails on wrong syntax of the generated lisp. Wait, lemme try it again and I'll pastebin it 21:29:24 -!- reber [n=reber@78.251.148.147] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:30:13 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:30:16 -!- ol3` [n=user@82.113.106.150] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:30:31 p_l: Yeah, I think I figured out that problem now. It makes more sense, as lichtblau suggests to do it as a cvar. 21:31:39 Retardedpope1 [n=Retarded@c-66-56-9-145.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:51 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:32:59 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:33:09 -!- Retardedpope [n=Retarded@c-66-56-9-145.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:34:24 Sikander pasted "CFFI cvar problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88521 21:34:54 lichtblau: Could you have a look at the paste? 21:35:00 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:06 francogrex [n=user@190.61-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 21:35:28 Hi, so they say to build sbcl from source you need sbcl. Right, so i'm familiar with the concept of metacircular programming or something, but it had to start somewhere. Where was the very first one built? 21:35:57 StarmanDX [n=chatzill@pool-71-104-27-150.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:43 Why so sbcl specific? Why not ask how the first compiler was compiled? 21:36:48 <_3b> sbcl is a fork of cmucl, so probably from that 21:37:06 <_3b> (you don't need sbcl though, clisp and xcl work as well, maybe others) 21:37:13 Besides, I think that sbcl can be compiled from any cl 21:37:23 compiled by 21:37:26 any postmodern users here? What's the Right Way to check if a table exists, and if not, create it? 21:37:34 *tmh* imagines some mythical creature slaving away underground flipping bits to produce the first compiler. 21:37:35 Sikander: I took sbcl as an example only 21:37:39 -!- rswc3t [n=slather@74-128-37-73.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:37:42 ok :( 21:37:44 :) 21:37:50 <_3b> requiring a previous version to compile a compiler isn't too uncommon though, usually you just start out with a hand assembled trivial version, or cross compiled version, and work up from there 21:37:50 or is it best practice to just assume a database has been correctly initialized? 21:38:42 So how was asm first assembled? ;) 21:38:49 tmh, _3b, so then the very 1st compiler was assembled by hand 21:38:51 <_3b> or possibly you start with an interpreter written in some other language, and them implement a compiler in that 21:39:04 nice 21:39:17 or 1s and 0s on a punch card 21:39:26 <_3b> well, if you go back far enough, you toggled in the code on switches on the box 21:39:45 and manually wire up the box 21:39:49 But first you'd need a guy to make those switches 21:39:49 So how was asm first assembled? <<< can anyone answer that (sceintifically)? 21:39:59 -!- morphling [n=stefan@89.13.35.179] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:40:10 And you need two people to make that guy 21:40:12 <_3b> francogrex: what do you mean? 21:40:21 asm is just the direct translation of 1s and 0s of machine byte code 21:40:22 francogrex: it wasn't? 21:40:35 you just switch in the machine code 21:40:40 it means to the computer exactly what you write 21:40:48 StarmanDX: not quite... Short/long jumps 21:40:56 operators used to know the OS code for the machines they were running by heart 21:40:58 "Early compilers were written in assembly language. The first self-hosting compiler  capable of compiling its own source code in a high-level language  was created for Lisp by Tim Hart and Mike Levin at MIT in 1962." 21:40:58 i prefer tmh bit flipper monster 21:41:21 mathrick: or at least the boot loader. 21:41:23 so when they were powering the machine on in the morning / on monday, they just keyed in the OS 21:41:27 Straight from Wikipedia. You've heard of that, right? It's all the rage with the young kids. 21:41:40 pkhuong: yes, that was part two, and then the OS morphed into the loader 21:41:54 yeah yeah, i dont do enough low level coding to really deeply understand the semantics 21:41:54 I thought "machine code" means to the computer exactly what you want 21:41:56 so that there was something to read things in from the paper tapes 21:42:20 francogrex: you have a very, very vague idea of what machine code is I see 21:42:51 From even earlier in the article -> "The first compiler was written by Grace Hopper, in 1952, for the A-0 programming language. " 21:42:52 mathrick: zeros and ones 21:42:55 and? 21:43:03 zeroes and ones what? 21:43:08 asm is not zeros and ones 21:43:12 bits 21:43:28 francogrex: 110100110100101110100110100101 21:43:30 what does it mean? 21:43:41 context is everything 21:43:44 could be data 21:43:47 or instructions 21:43:51 that's my point 21:43:51 mathrick: that's for thre computer to understand 21:44:17 mathrick: one more bit and it might work on some cpus... 21:44:20 francogrex: but it doesn't just mean "whatever you want", otherwise I could mean "computer, I want you to love" by the above and it'd do it 21:44:55 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:45:00 and yes, I know it's difficult, that was the only thing my Uni really answered for me I couldn't have learnt elsewhere :) 21:45:03 francogrex: -> http://www.just-fucking-wiki-it.com/ 21:45:17 lol 21:45:21 mathrick: what does this one mean: 8B542408 83FA0077 06B80000 0000C383 FA027706 B8010000 00C353BB 01000000 B9010000 008D0419 83FA0376 078BD98B C84AEBF1 5BC3 21:46:02 ASau` [n=user@83.237.166.229] has joined #lisp 21:46:16 francogrex: anyway, assembly is just a very thin layer over the machine code, with symbolic instructions that free you from thinking about things like "the conditional jump instruction is one of three opcodes depending on which register you test" 21:46:31 so assembling that by hand is trivial 21:47:13 mathrick: that above? how would you do it? 21:47:33 do what? 21:47:37 that above doesn't mean anything 21:47:40 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:47:41 by the way that is A function in 32-bit x86 machine code to calculate the nth Fibonacci number: 21:47:46 it does 21:47:51 <_3b> francogrex: that one means you didn't read the context you copied it =out of 21:47:53 read what i just wrote 21:47:59 pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-136-135.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:07 francogrex: no, it's no function 21:48:13 it's just a string of hex numbers 21:48:16 _3b wrong 21:48:26 also, what exactly are you arguing? 21:48:29 <_3b> mathrick: no it isn't, it is a string of ascii characters :p 21:48:38 lol 21:48:50 *_3b* is going to assume someone is trolling and go back to doing something elese now though 21:48:53 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:49:01 you need to do more reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-level_programming_language 21:49:16 _3b: yeah, I was considering that too :) 21:49:30 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 21:49:49 first-generation programming language 21:50:38 Ah, francogrex, so you *do* know about Wikipedia. Why didn't you just look up the compiler page? 21:51:43 -!- ASau` [n=user@83.237.166.229] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:53:02 tmh: I assume it's the same reason he felt like showing everyone their place despite being the most clueless here 21:53:06 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:53:07 tmh: there is no info on how the 1st lisp (like sbcl) was compiled 21:53:12 or she, I dunno the genders 21:53:21 it was sent down by God 21:53:30 -!- Cum [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:53:35 yeah, that's because He wrote the universe in Lisp 21:53:39 so obviously he had compilers 21:53:39 francogrex: As far as I can tell, it's reference 2. 21:53:43 and I do think the very 1st seed was done on a lisp machine, but can't be confirmed 21:53:59 francogrex: It wasn't. 21:54:41 i thought he hacked together with perl scripts 21:54:51 http://www.cons.org/cmucl/doc/cmucl-history.html 21:55:49 no need to random speculation 21:55:49 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AD75.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:55:59 "There was about 6000 lines of hand-coded assembly support for the runtime, including bignum arithmetic" <<< 21:56:26 nvm i was talking about the xkcd comic 21:57:01 my God its full of cars! 21:57:10 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.117.31] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:57:58 http://xkcd.com/224/ 21:58:16 please try to keep it on-topic 21:58:43 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:59:50 tmh pasted "research function for francogrex" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88523 22:00:31 Oops, shadowed a common lisp function. 22:00:49 Also forgot to terminate. 22:01:12 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-136-135.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:01:22 tmh: that seems to match the real francogrex's behaviour 22:02:02 On second thought, it should terminate 22:03:18 Might want to add in some kind of limit on the recursive depth. 22:03:55 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:04:04 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:05:37 looks fine 22:08:02 mathrick: no need to be reactive or defensive. i didn't mean to put your expertise or knowledge into question. actually i wasn't the 1st to start a provocative statements if you read back 22:08:33 nothing about your behaviour was provocative, but a lot was annoying and clueless 22:09:20 mathrick: ok that's your opinion. I do acknowledge nonethless that you have been helpful and have done son for me at least once in the past 22:09:52 francogrex: I was being provocative because these are questions that you can easily answer for yourself. You'll get more out of the answer as well. 22:10:28 there's a whole article about specifically that topic, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootstrapping_(compilers) 22:10:38 and it's been quoted before in this discussion, too 22:11:04 Anyone with knowledge on cffi and the cffi groveler is still invited to look at the paste I put up at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88521 ... 22:11:20 ol3` [n=user@82.113.106.87] has joined #lisp 22:11:54 tmh: with all due respect, a knowledge passed from someone who has studied the topic before is way batter than a search engine. that's why teachers cannot be replaced by google. But let's not get into such discussion again 22:12:40 francogrex: But that discussion is only useful is you've actually prepared for it. 22:13:23 *Sikander* thinks that googling is fine for superficial stuff. Teachers and actual literature are needed for deeper knowledge. 22:13:49 google literature 22:13:58 You still have to prepare. You're not going to get anything out of the discussion going in cold. 22:14:03 ol3`` [n=user@82.113.121.80] has joined #lisp 22:14:04 stassats: I was thinking more along the lines of scholar... 22:14:04 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:14:36 This is one of my favorite lectures on compilers -> http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html 22:14:38 Sikander: okay, well. That error is a simple bug, unrelated to the underlying issue. Which is (I think) that cvar doesn't handle this case. It's good enough for errno, but not for this. 22:15:09 pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-136-135.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:11 ("this" being `ACS_ULCORNER', not `lines') 22:15:15 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-136-135.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:15:38 pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-136-135.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:57 lichtblau: I don't understand. It doesn't even work for LINES which is a straight-forward extern variable. 22:16:47 seangrove [n=user@adsl-99-140-149-214.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:52 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:16:52 lichtblau: You are saying that the underlying issue is that ACS_ULCORNER won't work with cvar, even if it DID work with LINES? 22:17:13 *Sikander* sighs. 22:17:17 What's a man to do? 22:17:41 hack cffi groveler? 22:20:33 well that's my contribution for today, I'm turning in. Thanks for your suggestions and help. 22:20:42 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:22:05 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-136-135.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:22:30 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:22:35 seangrov` [n=user@adsl-99-140-149-214.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:11 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:25:27 namx [n=strat@unaffiliated/romani] has joined #lisp 22:25:36 -!- namx [n=strat@unaffiliated/romani] has left #lisp 22:25:37 bit of NIH in that lecture tmh, The moral is obvious. You can't trust code that you did not totally create yourself" 22:26:20 though to be fair its the second article from a veteran i have read today with bad experiences of second hand code 22:26:22 and CPU 22:26:55 and... universe? 22:27:05 what tricks could it hide 22:28:39 Guthur: A little. The point that stood out to me was not to take things for granted. Keep yourself open to problems that are not supposed to be possible. 22:29:10 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:29:35 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:29:44 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:30:23 another good example was from the Joshua Bloch part of this http://www.gigamonkeys.com/blog/2009/10/05/coders-unit-testing.html mathrick posted earlier 22:31:40 -!- chris2_ is now known as chris2 22:32:56 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:33:19 -!- ol3` [n=user@82.113.106.87] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:34:12 -!- lharc [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:34:42 Guthur: That looks like a good post. I use unit testing on some of my projects and not on others. It seems to add overhead, but then again, I've found many types of problems unit testing. 22:34:46 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust936.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 22:35:17 tmh ya it was a good read 22:35:51 Alright, I'm out, need to check on dinner. 22:35:54 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 22:36:14 -!- francogrex [n=user@190.61-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:36:33 that isn't linked on planet.lisp.org? 22:40:46 lharc [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 22:40:46 jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 22:41:31 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:36 not directly I think 22:41:49 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust936.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has left #lisp 22:41:52 I found it linked from another post aggregated by the planet 22:42:09 -!- jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:42:39 jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 22:43:05 not a nice read for Ron Jeffries 22:44:55 but like peter said he just didn't know the problem well enough, which makes solving it a lot harder. I don't think it real says as much about Ron as it does about knowing your problem domain thoroughly 22:45:05 -!- seangrove [n=user@adsl-99-140-149-214.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:46:47 i would have thought that TTD might help in that respect, i think Ron got caught in a 'can't see the wood for trees' situation 22:47:52 clim application-pane 22:47:53 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/29-4.html#_1681 22:49:07 any mcclim gurus around? 22:49:22 benny` [n=benny@i577A02CF.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:50:20 Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483D027.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:24 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 22:52:16 Guthur: yes, and interesting read 22:52:27 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-241-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:53:57 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-162.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:54:10 Hmm...I gotta say PAIP is quite a good book 22:54:29 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-80-84.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:54:40 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-80-84.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:55:28 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0999.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:55:54 -!- egoz [i=egoz@114.58.82.71] has quit [] 22:56:13 it is, PAIP that 22:57:36 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 22:57:44 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-162.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:58:42 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:01:14 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:01:22 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:02:26 i have PAIP order through the library 23:02:35 should be waiting for me on tomorrow 23:02:40 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-31-66.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:02:52 mle [n=emily@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:57 i have some many large books to read now though, not sure how i will find the time 23:03:20 Yeah, if you have a lot of other stuff you're reading...focusing on one book at a time may be worthwhile. 23:03:23 AIMA will take me months to read i think 23:03:26 I have 2 biggies I'm going through right now. 23:03:40 heh. tell me that. I still haven't got books for Advanced Psychology classes nor Formal Logic, and I haven't got a place to stay :D 23:04:25 WEll, at least you're living the life of adventure right now ;) 23:04:49 way more than I'd do, but hey, probably is a lot more fun than I have day in and day out. 23:06:28 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483E0D6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:08:10 is there a library which abstracts the way in which you call OS (linux) shell scripts? (independent of the CL implementation) 23:08:41 -!- xan [n=xan@dhcp-18-111-36-146.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:10:00 ASau` [n=user@83.237.166.229] has joined #lisp 23:10:01 minion: trivial-shell for madnificent 23:10:02 madnificent: please see trivial-shell: Trivial shell is a simple platform independent interface to the underlying Operating System. http://www.cliki.net/trivial-shell 23:10:09 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81.226.253.54] has quit [Client Quit] 23:10:15 minion: external-program? 23:10:15 external-program: This is a Compatibility Layers for executing other OS processes. http://www.cliki.net/external-program 23:10:20 perfect, thanks :) 23:11:35 TDT: If I get the flat I found, then I'm going to have a very fine place to live :) 23:11:36 external program seems to be sexy 23:12:14 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp150.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 23:13:19 *stassats* is frustrated by mcclim speed 23:15:34 redblue [i=star@207.253.108.12] has joined #lisp 23:16:16 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 23:16:40 p_l: Nice, well I wish you luck on that :) I gotta commute too far to the university right now...I live in a total different town, takes at least 30m to get here given traffic. 23:16:57 *stassats* is more frustrated that he doesn't know any other ui tool-kits 23:16:58 only 30m? Lucky 23:17:33 -!- slather [n=Richard@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit ["irc client upgrade"] 23:17:42 p_l: I wish it was closer. There's some coworkers that have something like 10m bike ride or something. 23:18:03 30m bike ride is more fun 23:18:04 -!- ASau` [n=user@83.237.166.229] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:18:41 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-176-95.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 23:18:49 Yeah, it'd be about an hour and some if I was to bike it from my house. About 10 miles or so. 23:18:56 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-176-95.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has left #lisp 23:19:06 *p_l* used to count 45 minutes to be "very lucky day" 23:19:54 that's 16km, 32 km per hour sounds ok 23:20:32 stassats: 10m by car, i don't know how much it'd be by bike 23:20:41 rswc3t [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 23:20:57 -!- rswc3t [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Client Quit] 23:21:08 stassats: I know one coworker who lives out around this area, who does bike it though in about 45m. He lives maybe a 10-15m bike ride from where I'm at, on the way into work...so that's where the measure came from. Never did it myself though. 23:21:33 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 23:21:52 considering traffic jams, bike can be faster, but enough OT 23:22:49 ... then we need a lisp-powered bike :) 23:24:24 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:24:38 it's bad when chapter 2 in PAIP already is starting to confuse me 23:24:50 But not the lisp, the grammar rules that he's talking about. 23:25:25 i remember there were context free grammars 23:26:16 yes, it's part of why I like PAIP so much - it contains quite a lot of stuff that should be covered, IMHO, during any CS course 23:26:41 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483D027.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:26:55 i remember having great fun constructing silly sentences 23:28:41 Yeah, I'm just briefly going through ch 1-3, I hope I'm not doing it an injustice doing that. I get the lisp he's talking about easy enough, just how he's using it is a bit odd in some ways. 23:28:47 manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6F943.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:28 TDT: PAIP introduces parts of lisp throughout the whole book, some code might look weird because of that 23:30:34 i read something the other day, amazon review about PAIP, said he more or less implements Prolog in lisp then uses that for the rest of the book 23:30:49 -!- chris2 [n=chris@94.216.55.128] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:32:56 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:35:59 Guthur: not really, but there's a chapter on programming in logic, and later his prolog-in-lisp is used in compiler-related chapters 23:36:17 the book contains compilers for both Prolog and scheme (with scheme one including TCO) 23:37:08 but have to admit the use of unification logic is king 23:37:22 i sure its good, Peter Norvig is very knowledgeable 23:40:33 jasber_ [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 23:43:05 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has quit [] 23:43:18 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.224] has joined #lisp 23:46:09 -!- lharc [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:48:03 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:49:12 ASau` [n=user@83.237.166.229] has joined #lisp 23:49:46 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:52:51 lharc [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 23:52:53 -!- ASau` [n=user@83.237.166.229] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:53:01 -!- raptelan_ is now known as raptelan 23:53:30 ASau` [n=user@ppp83-237-166-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:54:17 -!- jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:55:45 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.198.112] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 23:56:04 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:58:22 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)]