00:00:36 Guthur: I heard quite a lot about hw problems (as in, if you got a unit that actually worked it was great, but they were rare) 00:00:38 what's a (loop for ....) way of iterating across rows of a 2d array? 00:00:42 shiva8 [n=Administ@c-98-220-107-98.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:41 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.166.187] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:01:57 p_l: Not really sure I'd agree with that article - I see very little reference to other sites, and the whole ATI and AMD advertisements on the right of the page kinda imply a bit of bias. 00:02:02 as does the article's writing as well. 00:02:23 Xach: Sorry I missed you earlier. I had some questions about sb-posix:lockf but figured them out thanks to Fare and Fe[nl]ix. 00:02:57 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:03:05 on their "top 5 articles" 3 of the 5 talk about nvidia's demise....yeah, definitely slated. 00:03:12 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 00:04:24 TDT: the advertisement thing depends on the way their ad system works, the top 5 I can understand looking at the tiles and other articles of theirs... Still, I doubt anything would really change for me :P 00:04:56 TDT: or maybe nvidia recently showed dubious advances and product releases (e.g. the non-functional GT300), which would merit a couple articles. 00:05:39 wouldn't like to see them disappear 00:06:12 unless intel comes out with something, what ever happened to their larrabee stuff, but out of the hardware loop for ages 00:06:16 p_l: When I look at tech sites, I look at really the bias rating first. Tom's hardware, for example, wanted to show that the AMD chip would light on fire some years ago because of the heat sink came off...where as the P..something an another wouldn't. Big news...except for the fact that he disabled the protection through the BIOS on the AMD setup to make it do what it did. 00:06:36 i run linux now so don't need to upgrade hardware for at least another 5 years hehe 00:06:51 and only then cause my CPU will probably burn out 00:06:52 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:07:04 p_l: He's an example of someone who was, I don't know if currently still is, very bias toward AMD. I learend quite a bit from that, since I took what he said line, hook, and sinker and didn't see the billion intel ads right next to his article and video. 00:08:19 -!- KatrinaTheLamia is now known as Oprah 00:08:46 -!- Oprah is now known as KatrinaTheLamia 00:10:05 benny [n=benny@i577A00FC.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:11:19 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 00:11:44 TDT: sure. Frankly speaking, I didn't really follow computer news of any kind for a long time, but I simply correlated that article (pointed out to me by someone else) with various mentions of troubles with GT2xx line and previous, from private people. Anyway, it's not like I have any chance of getting a new gpu anytime soon 00:11:53 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:11:54 Administrator_ [n=Administ@c-98-220-107-98.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:30 gonzojive [n=red@DNab4222d5.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 00:13:00 -!- shiva8 [n=Administ@c-98-220-107-98.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:13:03 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:14:50 mbishop_ [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #lisp 00:15:23 binrapt [i=void@unaffiliated/binrapt] has joined #lisp 00:16:40 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-73-74.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:17:04 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 00:17:45 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0D657.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:13 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0D657.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 00:19:31 night all 00:19:36 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-147-40-39.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 00:20:02 -!- Yuuhi`` [i=benni@p5483FDB6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:20:19 guaqua: night 00:20:23 damn, missed 00:20:26 *Guthur 00:21:42 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:22:03 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 00:22:59 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:24:23 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:25:42 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:30 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h52n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:26:30 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:28:00 envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 00:28:38 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:29:17 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:30:56 p_l: I wouldn't believe anything Charlie Demerjian writes about nvidia. He consistently makes stuff up that's just patently false. 00:31:08 haha 00:32:28 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 00:32:41 nvidia claims it's not true: http://www.hardocp.com/news/2009/10/07/nvidia_abandons_market6363636363/ 00:32:42 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-73-74.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:32:51 "There is no truth to this. Charlie has become a sponsored site of his sole advertiser. It's no coincidence his website looks like an AMD ad." 00:32:56 There's some bad blood going back to his site breaking some NDA and never getting invited to another press event by them again, whereas he had some contacts that fed him disinformation on the ATI side of the hall 00:33:38 -!- gonzojive [n=red@DNab4222d5.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 00:33:45 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0D5F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:34:40 He's probably more biased than anything I can think of on any side of the journalism around gpus 00:35:35 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp050.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:35:53 heh. Good thing I don't read hw news anymore.. 00:36:35 There's a few places out there that actually do good work, nowadays. It's not as much of a wasteland as it was 5 years ago or so. 00:37:39 It's kind of a shame that there's not enough of a premium on good analysis to motivate people writing their own benchmarks and tools for analysis of new architectures. 00:38:34 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:39:39 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:41:05 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 00:42:58 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:42:59 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:43:09 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 00:44:32 redblue [i=star@ppp050.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:44:37 -!- mbishop_ [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [No route to host] 00:46:29 nvoorhies: do you think Ars Technica's stuff is good? 00:46:45 I'm generally somewhat impressed with Hannibal's stuff 00:47:00 Yeah, they do a good job 00:47:06 *rtoym* makes external formats run faster.... 00:48:24 There were one or two other places I saw that wrote their own diagnostic stuff to do things like figure out rasterization order in GPUs and such, and I think trying to figure out more about cache behavior in CPUs, but I can't remember their names for the life of me. 00:50:55 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 00:52:04 pjb [n=t@85-169-61-208.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 00:52:26 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-wgfbhnwuycmnpeyl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:02:28 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:02:28 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:02:48 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 01:05:00 -!- TDT [n=dthole@254.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:05:17 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Verlassend"] 01:20:20 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:20:52 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 01:25:28 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:28:13 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:28:29 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 01:29:58 billstclai [n=billstcl@dsl-216-227-57-77.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:02 So i have success doing a sb-posix:open call, but I can't find the expected sb-posix:write or :read. 01:38:35 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 01:38:39 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-5de570d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:38:50 mikezor [n=mikael@c-5de570d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:39:01 ski_ [n=slj@c-c110e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:39:06 wgl: you could use sb-unix:unix-write directly, or copy the definition. 01:39:09 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:39:12 -!- Administrator_ [n=Administ@c-98-220-107-98.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:39:12 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 01:40:06 -!- ski [n=slj@c-c110e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:40:29 pkhuong: didn't know that would be under unix and not posix. 01:40:41 wgl: sb-unix is an internal package. 01:42:29 pkhuong: Ah, so need double colon. 01:43:21 no, the package is internal to the implementation; use it at your own risk. unix-write is *exported* from sb-unix. It's still morally internals in SBCL. 01:47:26 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:48:31 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-82-22.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:48:32 pkhuong: Ok. curious why open,unlink, etc are all available when read/write is not at the same level. 01:48:41 I agree, it's a terrible naming scheme for an internal package. 01:48:41 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:49:48 wgl: nobody bothered, most probably. 01:51:05 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 01:57:56 pkhuong: Ok. 02:04:54 tau [n=euller@189.127.56.107] has joined #lisp 02:08:24 -!- bunz [n=bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has quit ["bye"] 02:11:07 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:11:18 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 02:13:54 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:16:15 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:23:34 ignas_ [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 02:23:55 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:24:44 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-72-12.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:27:09 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 02:27:30 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:55 G0SUB_ [n=ghoseb@117.195.100.90] has joined #lisp 02:30:40 -!- alec [n=alec@pool-96-237-13-64.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:34:10 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:34:24 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 02:34:41 -!- NNshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-139.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 02:35:25 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:38:43 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-233-199.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:44:47 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-24-221-172.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:53 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-69-181-45-251.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:45:41 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:48:10 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.136.232] has joined #lisp 02:50:01 s0ber [i=pie@118-160-167-144.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:46 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.169.80.60] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:54:21 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:54:33 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 02:59:25 Anyone here have any experience with montezuma? I'd like to know if it can easily do things like given a index of documents with fields containing universal times, find the match with the most recent time. 02:59:51 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:00:10 Good morning! 03:00:52 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-216-114.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:01:38 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.143] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:04:53 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6FB71.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 03:06:51 -!- marioxcc [n=user@201.132.49.49] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:08:19 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 03:08:25 Morning, beach. 03:09:06 male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:29 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:10:00 Morning 03:15:57 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.218] has joined #lisp 03:18:01 girzel [n=user@222.169.203.77] has joined #lisp 03:18:54 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-1-21.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:24 vcgomes` [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 03:19:41 -!- vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:31:55 Hey wgl. I hope you don't mind that I now read your nick as 'wiggle'. 03:32:19 -!- tau [n=euller@189.127.56.107] has quit ["Saindo"] 03:33:56 -!- girzel [n=user@222.169.203.77] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:36:53 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:41 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:41 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:44:35 -!- Axioplas1_ is now known as Axioplase 03:45:10 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 03:49:38 jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 03:52:02 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:52:55 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:23 in fact 03:53:27 has anyone got montezuma working at all? 03:53:59 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp050.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:54:45 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-76-124-15-45.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:25 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:57:47 gigamonkey: Sigh. One of the drawbacks, I guess. There are several old jokes about that back in my management days. Not disrespectful, mind you. That is fine. 03:58:11 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-76-124-15-45.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:04:05 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:05 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:04:17 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:07:06 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:07:55 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:09:27 wol [n=wol@67.174.222.215] has joined #lisp 04:10:25 Any way in common lisp (CLOS) to determine if X is a subclass of Y? 04:10:49 clhs subclassp 04:10:50 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for subclassp. 04:11:23 eh there's something named like that 04:11:31 clhs subtypep 04:11:31 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subtpp.htm 04:11:51 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-179.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:12:42 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:13:02 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:34 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-179.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:15:07 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-179.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:15:39 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:18:14 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 04:18:48 Thank you. 04:21:57 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:22:22 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:46 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:27:18 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:27:23 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:30:27 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:08 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 04:32:38 -!- wol [n=wol@67.174.222.215] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:41:30 lsk_ [n=HJS@122.116.5.215] has joined #lisp 04:43:32 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:44:28 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:47 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:46:12 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:46:36 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:49:58 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 05:02:09 -!- _YKY_ [i=YKY@119.237.170.87] has quit ["flip: back to simulation"] 05:03:38 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 05:03:41 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:05:56 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 05:07:13 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:07:46 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:08:43 cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #lisp 05:17:03 I know someone in here has montezuma working :/ 05:23:10 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.66.81] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:23:17 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.153.68] has joined #lisp 05:24:47 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-59-41.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:25:06 nostoi [n=nostoi@89.Red-79-145-124.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:22 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:25:29 Ralith: afaik fusss has 05:25:49 Ralith: i do 05:26:06 800 megs worth of market data 05:26:43 -!- tsuru` [n=user@c-76-22-154-126.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:26:45 i also have a standalone montezuma-enabled sbcl embedded in a php app 05:27:53 fusss: are you using the built-in persistence support? 05:28:52 I am using that, yes, but it's not the only document repository that i have; think of it as a cache 05:28:52 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.153.68] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:29:00 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.153.68] has joined #lisp 05:29:45 Good morning! 05:29:58 once you call make-index, you don't have to think again about how it does persistence 05:30:03 fusss: I keep getting "Couldn't rename ./montezuma-logs/segments.new to ./montezuma-logs/montezuma-logs/segments: No such file or directory" when I call (make-instance 'montezuma:index :path "montezuma-logs") 05:30:07 any ideas? 05:30:18 yes 05:30:25 "monteuma-logs/" 05:30:29 ooh. 05:30:40 no change. 05:31:03 error remains. 05:31:24 M-. and see where the error is coming from 05:32:11 if you're just trying to debug this and move on, i suggest you debug it. but if you want fault-tolerant persistence, i can help you with the architecture .. 05:32:38 mostly I'm just wondering whether montezuma is broken or I'm abusing it 05:32:47 this is all but copy and pasted out of the tutorial on google code 05:33:15 (defun make-index (name) 05:33:15 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:33:17 (make-instance 'montezuma:index 05:33:19 :path (merge-pathnames *index-root* name))) 05:33:24 sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 05:33:32 ooh, I bet it has to be an absolute path 05:33:46 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 05:33:49 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:33:54 no, wasn't that. 05:34:19 ah, wait 05:34:21 (defvar *index-root* (merge-pathnames "index/" *app-root*)) where app-root is #p"/var/www//" 05:34:50 error is on (RENAME-FILE #P"montezuma-logs/segments.new" #P"montezuma-logs/segments") 05:34:54 yes, absolute path for the most top-level *app-root* variable. i build subpaths from that with merge-pathnames 05:35:06 sounds like RENAME-FILE is misbehaving? 05:35:11 that looks valid to me 05:36:03 an absolute path results in an identical function call, so that's not it 05:36:28 does the user under which your lisp runs have write permission to that directory? 05:36:53 yes. 05:37:06 if I mkdir montezuma-logs inside montezuma-logs the error goes away, but that's not a real fix. 05:37:23 I think RENAME-FILE expects a path as the first parameter and a new name as the second, or something along those lines 05:37:32 you _have_ to create the root directory for montezuma, but it creates all the files therein by itself 05:37:34 as opposed to two paths 05:37:38 ..oh? 05:37:50 wait 05:37:52 what 05:38:03 how do I tell it what its root directory is? 05:38:14 yes, rename-wants file new-name arguments, and both are pathname designators 05:38:53 I mean RENAME-FILE is interpreting "x/y to x/z" as "x/y to x/x/z" 05:38:58 the root directory for your index is whatever argument you passed to (make-instance 'montezuma:document ..) 05:39:09 er, it autocreates that directory 05:39:16 and then screw up the init 05:39:23 generating the error in question 05:39:37 manually creating a directory at the :path argument doesn't change anything at all 05:39:51 RENAME-FILE still does the screwed up interpretation 05:40:53 testcase confirms 05:41:07 SEARCH> (make-instance 'montezuma:index :path "/home/fusss/project/foo") 05:41:09 # 05:41:14 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:21 -!- G0SUB_ [n=ghoseb@117.195.100.90] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:41:36 sbcl 1.0.30 linux 05:41:41 (rename-file #P"foo/bar" #P"foo/baz") => "couldn't rename ./foo/bar to ./foo/foo/baz" 05:42:06 sbcl 1.0.31 linux here 05:43:12 SEARCH> (rename-file "/home/fusss/project/foo/segments" "/home/fusss/project/foo/segments.old") 05:43:14 #P"/home/fusss/project/foo/segments.old" 05:43:16 #P"/home/fusss/project/foo/segments" 05:43:17 #P"/home/fusss/project/foo/segments.old" 05:43:31 fusss: montezuma does not call RENAME-FILE with absolute paths. 05:43:58 or, wait a minute 05:44:02 clhs rename-file 05:44:02 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rn_fil.htm 05:44:10 maybe start with this :) 05:44:40 fusss: yeah, montezuma drops the absolute path 05:44:40 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:44:56 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:45:01 if I manually perform the rename, I get *another* file not found error after I start trying to put data in 05:45:13 ouldn't delete montezuma-logs/segments 05:45:41 and the file most certainly does exist 05:45:47 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-6-175.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:46:07 KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-8-238.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:25 it must be using some other path 05:46:31 (slot-value 'dir) what does this tell you? 05:46:58 Ralith: if you can't delete it, it means something else has the file open as well 05:47:19 fwiw, montezuma-0.1.3 here 05:47:57 Ralith: if all fails, fire up another lisp and try it again 05:48:20 fusss: no, the error is 'file not found' again :P 05:48:25 and yeah I'm trying a fresh image 05:48:45 it's failing to correctly initialize its directory again after I wipe it 05:49:12 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 05:49:13 the directory is initialized with make-instance 'montezuma:index 05:49:25 omit the :path argument and try to play with the memory-based index for now 05:49:36 that one works fine 05:51:44 okay, a clean lisp image with an absolute path seems to work. 05:52:05 strange that redefining the var with a new instance within the image didn't fix it 05:52:19 is there a portable way to get the current working directory? 05:52:25 Ralith: if you want an assignment, you can investigate who to wrap montezuma:index with a decent persistence layer like Elephant, ManarDB or CLSQL 05:53:13 that would be an interesting project 05:53:27 -!- ski_ is now known as ski 05:53:34 is there something wrong with the builtin one? 05:53:54 (directory ".") works for me but it's not portable 05:54:37 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:54:37 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:55:02 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:55:16 Ralith: fwiw, i have a .lisprc that i use with my lisps between win32 and linux and DIRECTORY has unexpected wild-card behaviour 05:55:36 dialtone [n=dialtone@98.210.155.172] has joined #lisp 05:56:44 I can't seem to get merge-pathnames to work, either >:/ 05:56:59 I do something similar to (dolist (x (directory "/lisp-path/site-systems/*")) (push x asdf:*central-registry*)) or similar, but DIRECTORY with the * wild card returns different results for clozure and sbcl on linux, and LW and SBCL on win32; none are alike. 05:57:21 cl-fad + the pathname stuff from PCL should do the trick 05:57:29 CltL3 aught to remedy this 05:58:06 that would be nice. 05:58:19 are status updates to that being posted anywhere? 05:59:17 splittist [n=dmurray@85.4.220.156] has joined #lisp 05:59:18 morning 06:00:11 mornin' 06:00:18 thanks for the help, fusss, all seems to be well now. 06:00:25 no worries 06:00:36 moar montezuma users! 06:00:58 ^^ 06:01:20 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 06:01:24 Good morning! 06:02:55 Ralith: P.S. don't use it a document store. just because you can index text bodies doesn't mean you need to return text bodies for a matching text subject query. index the body, but once there is a match, return an ID/pointer to an actual document on disk, rdbms or a decent document store like CouchDB. 06:03:37 running huge strings over the wire, for thousands of concurrent users, will strain even the best of the best search engines 06:04:10 aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has joined #lisp 06:04:49 if you're going to cache search results for a query, don't do it the server memory (hunchentoot) but put it in a centralized proper cache, that multiple instance of hunchentoot or other httpd can access, like memcached, or a home-made one like I do. 06:06:29 if you're going to store various type of documents in montezuma, it wont be long until you will need to define document templates; report, press-release, email, contract, etc. possibly each with a different permission for user-roles. hint: a template is just a document with a "type" field. implement that in app logic, use strings so you can query from Lisp and other languages, etc. 06:06:38 growing a search engine is a bit painful but fun 06:06:41 good luck 06:07:19 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-213-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:07:45 -!- drhodes [n=none@209-20-72-61.slicehost.net] has left #lisp 06:08:30 montezuma is a flat "database"; so a lot of your time will be spent on filtering and sorting the results in a very map-reduce like fashion, assuming you're going all the way for glory :-) 06:09:22 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 06:09:35 This is actually going to be a very low throughput use-case. 06:09:41 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:09:42 but interesting points nonetheless. 06:12:09 serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06ee67.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:14 good morning 06:13:43 seisatsu_ [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-33-92-164.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:44 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:14:11 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:23 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-33-92-164.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:14:36 morning serichsen 06:15:09 there's also sphinx and the api I'm in the process of writing for it (cl-sphinx-search) as an indexing solution... 06:15:17 and good morning, of course 06:15:55 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:16:19 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229113198.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:16:29 (although, 'write for it' is maybe a bit much, more like translating from perl to lisp like, at the moment anyway) 06:19:50 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 06:21:28 -!- l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:21:31 l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 06:22:05 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:22:29 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@89.Red-79-145-124.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 06:22:30 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:53 fusss, what do you mean by "fire up another lisp"? 06:23:53 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:24:51 lat: "run another lisp implementation to see if it's broken there as well" 06:26:49 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:28:04 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 06:29:47 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-206-40-230.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:29:55 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.71] has joined #lisp 06:30:02 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:30:03 fusss, it is still not clear to me. Do you mean on a different computer? Sorry for the ignorant newbie questions. 06:30:52 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 06:30:57 lat: on any given platfrom (linux, windows, etc) you have multiple lisp _implementations_ and lispers tend to have a few Common Lisp implementations installed 06:32:59 They do? 06:33:59 fusss, so if it doesn't work with sbcl try it with cmucl or abcl? 06:34:57 clisp and ccl might be good implementations to try stuff on, they are also quite conformant. 06:35:09 lat: yes, and see how if it's working. typically you have a favorite development lisp, but others come handy for testing your code and catch any platform dependencies that might have crept it. 06:35:18 plage: don't you run more than one lisp? 06:35:25 Nope. 06:35:26 plage: or are you a monotheist? :-D 06:35:35 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:35:38 monolispist 06:35:39 so who is the lucky lisp? sbcl? 06:35:44 fusss: I just don't see the need. 06:35:52 fusss: I use SBCL. 06:36:41 plage: i am paranoid about platform dependence 06:37:21 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-230-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:33 fusss: I see. I tend to mostly use ANSI stuff. 06:38:06 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:04 It's a good idea to run on clisp next to sbcl because the clisp people made the effort to implement pretty much everything from scratch. Many other implementations borrow lot of run-time stuff from cmucl/sbcl. 06:39:25 Good point. 06:39:49 It's also a good idea to explicitly cater for implementation that are based on different implementation-techniques 06:40:25 i have never bothered to use a lisp that compiles to C; the KCLs are way out of my league 06:40:33 (It's also when you discover the niceness of implementing Lisp in Lisp when you're confronted with an implementation's bug.) 06:40:45 -!- antgreen [n=user@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM0018c0b3c272.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:41:12 fusss: No magic involved in building and using ecl 06:41:37 how is the usage? i rather die than use a batch compiler 06:41:53 ECL is less a batch compiler than sbcl 06:41:58 antgreen [n=user@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM0018c0b3c272.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 06:42:03 oh! 06:42:21 can you DISASSEMBLE from the repl? 06:42:32 can you ED? 06:42:46 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-203-025.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:42:49 i thought the C-ness would break perfect emacs integration; M-., v, etc. 06:43:10 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:50 fusss: you better check your assumptions 06:44:00 fusss: for instance, ECL has a byte-compiler 06:44:06 and interpreter 06:44:20 impressive 06:44:38 how is CFFI support? 06:44:39 fusss: In my quick experiment involving DISASSEMBLE, it complains about not being able to find the source. 06:44:56 fusss: it works as far as i have heard 06:45:17 Regarding meta-information, ECL could do better. 06:46:08 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:46:12 tcr: yeah, but you can always develop in a more reflective lisp, then deploy with ECL. C-compilation is a win, imo. 06:48:10 It's not so difficult to greatly improve the situation (most is there already) 06:48:37 koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.107.70] has joined #lisp 06:48:43 some C code needs to be hacked, and I began doing that, but then gave up. :) 06:49:19 I'd guess one man-week would suffice if you're so inclined. 06:50:21 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:55:42 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-230-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:57:34 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:58:08 good morning 06:59:41 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-146-44.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 07:00:39 -!- sykopomp [n=root@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:01:16 hello mvilleneuve 07:03:25 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 07:06:41 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.218] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:08:17 jdz, does ecl support unicode? 07:08:40 lat: i'm the wrong person to ask. 07:09:28 lat: does C support unicode? 07:09:58 uhh, that's a wrong analogy question. 07:10:09 jdz, who is the right person? 07:10:36 lat: Yeah it does, pass --enable-unicode to configure 07:10:41 lat: http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html 07:14:27 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:17:01 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 07:17:38 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:13 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-146-44.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:18:35 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-146-44.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 07:18:53 fusss, thanks. jdz, thanks also. 07:19:00 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-32-193.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:26:29 what's going on when I get an error like this from running a function in a package: "failed to find the TRUENAME of /home/thijso/code/clbuild/target/lib/sbcl/", but when I run truename manually from the REPL it just works? 07:27:14 i.e. I do (truename "/home/thijso/code/clbuild/target/lib/sbcl/"), it just returns the #P"... 07:30:30 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.129] has joined #lisp 07:30:35 sykopomp [n=root@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 07:31:34 -!- seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:34:56 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-2-130.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:35:35 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 07:37:02 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:37:09 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:38:44 ol3` [n=user@82.113.121.155] has joined #lisp 07:39:26 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 07:39:30 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-204.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:40:25 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:40:44 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:40:56 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 07:41:37 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:42:01 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:42:42 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.37.35] has joined #lisp 07:43:07 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-202-103.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 07:43:31 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 07:48:29 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:50:57 bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 07:54:15 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-146-44.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:55:14 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-146-44.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 07:55:15 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-221-172.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:56:51 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:56:55 -!- Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:57:34 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2366.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:54 ASau [n=user@host172-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 08:04:09 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has left #lisp 08:05:06 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:07:52 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:11:12 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 08:12:07 jasber_ [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 08:15:58 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:16:15 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 08:16:35 Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:17:27 noone has any idea? or nobody here... ;) 08:17:44 hdurer_ [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-feijqnuhqxaelknv] has joined #lisp 08:18:29 the thing for which your implemantation complains is not a string, is it? 08:19:35 -!- jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:21:49 uhm.. I think it is.. 08:22:02 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0D657.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:11 or, at least, when I do it manually with a string, it does work.. 08:22:24 Is this portable? (lambda (list &optional (a (find 3 list))) a) 08:22:25 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 08:23:23 the weird thing is that the error message includes: "No such file or directory", while I'm absolutely certain that it does exist (and when I copy paste it into (truename "..") it works) 08:24:12 debugger says: SB-DEBUG::ARG-1 = "/home/thijso/code/clbuild/target/lib/sbcl/" 08:24:19 so I guess it _is_ a string 08:25:08 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.245.170] has joined #lisp 08:25:15 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 08:25:37 serichsen, without having confirmed with the CLHS or anything, i'm pretty sure it is .. i've seen that done several times 08:26:02 lnostdal: thanks 08:26:53 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:27:23 clhs 3.4.1 08:27:23 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_da.htm 08:27:41 serichsen: "Whenever any init-form is evaluated for any parameter specifier, that form may refer to any parameter variable to the left of the specifier in which the init-form appears, including any supplied-p-parameter variables" 08:27:45 serichsen: you are safe (-: 08:27:54 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:33:13 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:35:05 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 08:35:56 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:36:16 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 08:37:13 antifuchs: thanks, I couldn't find that passage 08:37:46 np (: 08:40:06 -!- Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:40:23 -!- lsk_ [n=HJS@122.116.5.215] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:40:27 Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #lisp 08:43:35 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.37.35] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:44:08 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.37.35] has joined #lisp 08:46:47 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 08:48:43 Bxttx [n=Luca_Bxt@93-39-239-176.ip78.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:49:06 Guthur [i=c13dbf11@gateway/web/freenode/x-ytyhmyrespajbvgh] has joined #lisp 08:52:20 levy_ [n=levy@apn-89-223-146-44.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:53:36 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-146-44.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:56:23 -!- ia_ [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:56:56 -!- bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [No route to host] 09:02:13 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:02:54 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:03:54 Who is the author of asdf? 09:04:01 -!- male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:04:24 http://www.cliki.net/Daniel%20Barlow 09:05:49 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.37.35] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:06:32 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.37.35] has joined #lisp 09:08:04 H4ns, thanks. 09:08:16 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:08:38 sunwukong [n=vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:08:38 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:08:55 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 09:09:47 lat: note that he is not the maintainer of asdf anymore. 09:12:58 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 09:15:41 Hoher Besuch! 09:16:01 tcr: haha 09:16:18 tcr: aber danke :) 09:16:55 In retrospect, I should just have waited in the bar for you guys finishing dinner 09:17:11 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 09:17:17 hello 09:18:28 Reaver1 [n=AFLI@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 09:19:14 levy_: I made a small test with Selenium IDE for Firefox 09:19:42 levy_: the results are promising. 09:19:51 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:09 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:20:23 couldn't think of where else to ask: how does one properly pronounce Principia Mathematica? hard C or soft C in principia? 09:20:50 I'd pronounce it as an s. 09:21:16 it's more like a sh 09:21:36 but i could swear i heard someone pronounce Newton's similarly titled book with a hard C 09:21:41 on tv 09:21:42 levy_: I would have to modify the rendering of some components. Mainly adding more attributes to DOM elements which wrap other components for easier identification during testing. 09:21:57 i'm making a documentary film, and i've come to the point where i have to say principia :) 09:22:19 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 09:23:55 dto: dit.leo.org has voice samples for the english dictionary 09:24:12 dto: It somehwat depends on taste. The pronunciation changed over time. When the book was published, it probably follows medieval latin where it's pronounced pretty much like in italian nowadays, kind of like the dg in fridge 09:24:36 Vonunov [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:40 dto: dict.leo.org, sorry 09:26:11 H4ns: no entry. 09:26:37 tcr: so what should i say? prinSHipia? 09:26:42 tcr: I thought it was supposed to be a *voiceless* plosive. 09:26:59 levy__ [n=levy@apn-89-223-146-44.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:27:11 dto: an example of a voiceless plosive is more like "ch" than "sh" (the latter being a fricative) 09:27:12 Has pronunciation changed much since 1910? 09:27:54 i'll do my best. 09:27:56 sykopomp: Perhaps, I'm not used to english morphology 09:28:39 -!- levy_ [n=levy@apn-89-223-146-44.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:29:25 i've decided to say it as a softened CH.... closer to ch than sh. will i be laughed off of youtube? 09:29:31 dto: I'd assume a hard c. But then I didn't understand half the words sykopomp and tcr used (: 09:29:53 btw anyone who wants to see episode 1? http://www.archive.org/details/TheGenesisReportEpisode1 09:30:06 splittist: :) 09:31:11 well, here we go 09:31:38 wikipedia sez that after the catholic church took hold, the C was pronounced as it is in Italian today. 09:32:02 which means it's [t], or English "ch" 09:32:13 so... "Preencheepeeah" 09:32:27 -!- Bxttx [n=Luca_Bxt@93-39-239-176.ip78.fastwebnet.it] has left #lisp 09:32:51 See also https://carnot.physics.buffalo.edu/archives/1997/12_1997/msg00291.html . I would assume that Bert and Al used the 19C Romantic pronunciation. 09:33:03 also, shows how much I remember about phonology, "ch" is still a fricative >_> 09:33:06 _quasi [n=_quasi@122.170.37.35] has joined #lisp 09:33:18 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2D770.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:33:26 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2C7EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:33:30 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 09:34:50 whoa, and this one is interesting: H is silent except in two words: mihi and nihil, where it is pronounced [k]. 09:35:13 *sykopomp* starts saying "nikilistic" from now on. 09:35:37 HG` [n=HG@xdslak054.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:35:49 dto how long is the documentary 09:35:54 In Latin, #\c before #\i or #\e is sssss, all other kkkk 09:36:13 it would be CH sounding in Italian, but not in proper latin 09:36:15 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-181-204.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 09:36:34 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:36:44 latin was pronounced wrongly until the 1940s when better scholarship unearthed the original phonology 09:37:04 Guthur: 9 minutes for episode 1 09:37:20 -!- aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has quit ["KVIrc 3.2.6 Anomalies http://www.kvirc.net/"] 09:38:00 Prinsepia Matematika 09:38:36 there is no "th" sound in latin. and where there is h it's silent. 09:39:11 fusss: ecclesiastical latin -> more like italian (with CH), and I would figure that's what most spoken latin was after the language basically died. 09:39:28 otherwise, it varied by region: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Latin#Pronunciation 09:39:34 -!- _quasi [n=_quasi@122.170.37.35] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:40:03 _quasi [n=_quasi@122.170.37.35] has joined #lisp 09:40:16 sykopomp: you're right, church latin is italian influenced 09:41:00 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 09:41:00 and only romance that has a "th" sound would be iberian spanish 09:41:26 <_quasi> goshbabu, afternoon! 09:41:41 9 min and nearly 800mb, is it HD or something 09:41:58 fusss: where is there talk of "th"?... 09:42:34 among central and northern spaniars, s ==  09:42:50 Guthur: it's NTSC DVD res 09:42:50 fusss: yeah, I'm wondering why you brought it up :P 09:43:02 although that's not quite correct. 09:43:18 sykopomp: the "th" in "Mathematica"; how would you pronounce it in _latin_ 09:43:24 oh 09:43:59 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:44:01 that would be a hard T (as mathematics is pronounced in pretty much every romance language I know) 09:44:44 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:44:45 i know, the hard T; that's why I wrote "Prinsipia Matematika" above :-) 09:45:12 ah 09:45:23 (mathématique is hard T, right?) 09:45:37 -!- Guthur [i=c13dbf11@gateway/web/freenode/x-ytyhmyrespajbvgh] has quit ["Page closed"] 09:45:46 I like the way you say "ecclesiastical latin" as though there were only one kind 09:45:56 also, the "modern" latin phonology I know has hard c always 09:46:27 on the other hand, Newton's latin is not likely to be either "modern" latin or authentically Roman latin 09:46:33 so I wouldn't get too hung up about it 09:46:44 Xof: Russel and Whitehead latin ;-) 09:47:26 the /other/ principia 09:47:36 heh 09:47:40 same argument 09:51:19 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 09:52:48 dwh [n=dwh@118.209.232.128] has joined #lisp 09:56:46 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 09:58:38 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:00:17 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:00:21 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 10:00:47 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:00:57 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-5-156.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 10:02:02 | Some X applications and toolkits will require modification to work with MPX, as they hard-code in the assumption that there is only one keyboard and pointer. 10:02:19 *Xof* looks forward to all the imminent clx / mcclim hacking 10:03:40 *attila_lendvai* is interested whether it's possible to use his laptop with extra screen and input devices as two computers with two X logins on the two screens 10:04:29 well, when you can't expect that toolkits follow certain basic rules regarding WMs, how can you expect MPX to not make apps crazy? 10:04:57 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:14 sykopomp: so far i have about 3 minutes of episode 2 10:06:06 -!- ol3` [n=user@82.113.121.155] has left #lisp 10:06:14 *p_l* recalls introductory chapters in X11 programming book stating that the app should shutup and accept whatever WM is there... 10:06:14 sykopomp: i'm hoping to turn it into a longer series 10:08:03 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslak054.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:08:52 -!- Reaver1 [n=AFLI@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:11:09 -!- ignas_ [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:11:29 knobo [n=user@fcnoos-fw03.freecode.no] has joined #lisp 10:13:13 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.37.35] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:15:54 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.245.170] has quit [] 10:17:15 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:18:55 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:20:00 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:26:12 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 10:26:44 cmatei_ [n=cmatei@82.137.49.217] has joined #lisp 10:27:11 manuel__ [n=manuel@pD9E6FB71.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:28:00 Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:31:58 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 10:32:15 kami-, I've put up a newer version to dwim.hu 10:32:25 the component demo is updated 10:32:43 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@95.95.190.41] has joined #lisp 10:33:04 there are still a things to revive/polish from the old code base 10:35:02 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:41:56 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:45:50 Guthur [i=c13db416@gateway/web/freenode/x-wdimguvxuvabovkw] has joined #lisp 10:47:40 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-204.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:48:09 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 10:52:15 "When you call xcvb-master:build-and-load (which also has the short-hand xcvbm:bnl)" -- why that short-hand? only to confuse people using fuzzy completion? :) it'll show some "false" match as first on the list... :) 10:57:16 ignas_ [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:02:30 also, why not b&l? (-: 11:03:49 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:05:59 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:09:32 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.129] has quit ["so long.."] 11:10:59 HG` [n=HG@xdslak054.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:13:31 does any of you know of some tutorial on debugging ECL, other than the internals manual ? I can reliably crash it when using slime 11:15:19 checking the *inferior-lisp* buffer might reveal something, cmatei_ 11:17:22 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 11:17:28 i don't have on, i'm connecting to a swank server 11:18:34 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-181-204.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:19:32 but the result is the same: Detected access to protected memory, also kwown as 'segmentation fault' :) 11:20:03 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslak054.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 11:20:07 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:23:27 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Success] 11:36:06 You can attach do the ecl process via gdb 11:36:11 er, to. 11:36:21 -!- Guthur [i=c13db416@gateway/web/freenode/x-wdimguvxuvabovkw] has quit ["Page closed"] 11:37:31 I did. it eventually dereferences a cl_object whose value is 0x1, but what I was looking for was a way to determine what triggers that 11:37:51 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 11:38:01 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 11:39:11 levy_ [n=levy@apn-89-223-146-44.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 11:40:25 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:32 -!- levy__ [n=levy@apn-89-223-146-44.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:42:54 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 11:44:29 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:46:18 Levenson [n=Levenson@91.185.12.110] has joined #lisp 11:47:35 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:48:17 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:49:51 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:49:59 fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 11:54:30 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit 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joined #lisp 13:48:42 -!- Guthur [i=c13dbf28@gateway/web/freenode/x-yytariwtiunjclcl] has quit ["Page closed"] 13:49:07 bt ..? 13:49:08 p0a [n=user@athedsl-373341.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 13:49:09 *shrug* 13:49:18 Hello is there any way I can get the source of cl-event without using tla 13:49:21 http://www.dtek.chalmers.se/~tox/site/cl-event.php4 13:49:51 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:51:46 p0a, not an answer to your question, but if your goal is epoll based io multiplexing etc. iolib provides that and it is available as a tarball or via git .. several lisp web projects/servers use it and it works well 13:52:15 if you go the tarball route i'd go for the latest snapshot .. but really; go for git if you can -- it's nice; you can upgrade easily later then :) 13:52:25 billstclai [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-213-82.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:03 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:53:22 -!- billstclai is now known as billstclair 13:53:24 it's available via clbuild also 13:53:42 lnostdal: thanks. I was thinking of improving cl-event or even completely rewriting it but since tehre's iolib around there's no need 13:54:33 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B3C9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:33 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:55:20 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:55:36 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@tmo-100-84.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:56:21 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1"] 13:59:21 sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 13:59:47 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 14:02:03 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:03:37 Tito_Floren [n=n@169.230.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:03:53 -!- Tito_Floren [n=n@169.230.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:08:27 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:08:27 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:08:39 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:09:15 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:09:29 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:10:02 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2366.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:35 p0a_ [n=user@athedsl-373341.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:15:45 anyone here tried commonqt? 14:16:03 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 14:16:30 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has left #lisp 14:19:01 -!- yango_ [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:19:18 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 14:20:08 it doesn't seem to load all the classes on mac :-/ 14:20:56 haven't tried that yet but it is a good idea 14:21:29 will defenetly try it on n800/n900 14:21:39 nokias 14:21:56 udzinari: it doesn't work too well with ecl (dependencies) so I'm trying with allegro for now 14:23:18 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:25:30 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:49 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:27:43 -!- levy__ [n=levy@apn-89-223-146-44.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:28:07 levy__ [n=levy@apn-89-223-146-44.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 14:31:11 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-373341.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:31:55 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-1-21.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:33:36 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:05 hi Fare 14:34:39 fe[nl]ix, hi 14:34:42 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:36:44 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:38:55 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 14:39:35 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:19 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:40:20 -!- _quasi [n=_quasi@122.170.37.35] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:40:26 -!- coyo [n=alex@cpe-24-175-69-106.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:40:36 _quasi [n=_quasi@122.170.37.35] has joined #lisp 14:41:54 -!- rpg_ [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 14:43:33 -!- free_thinker [n=willijar@134.151.144.246] has left #lisp 14:46:13 -!- vcgomes` is now known as vcgomes 14:46:14 -!- _quasi [n=_quasi@122.170.37.35] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:48:45 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-47.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:48:50 jajcloz [n=jaj@72.85.235.154] has joined #lisp 14:50:07 Hm. The new JIT compilation interface for gdb 7 might be totally usable under lisp implementations 14:50:09 -!- levy__ [n=levy@apn-89-223-146-44.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:50:27 levy__ [n=levy@apn-89-223-146-44.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 14:50:36 what would you use it for? 14:50:42 Quote from NEWS: Applications that dynamically generate code can create symbol files in memory and register them with GDB. 14:50:56 debugging the implementation 14:50:58 presto, lisp-style c coding? 14:51:01 aha 14:52:04 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:16 gdb 7 also has reversible debugging, which I'm really interested in trying out 14:53:28 Yup 14:53:33 (and Python scripting, yay) 14:54:22 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:55:11 _quasi [n=_quasi@122.170.37.35] has joined #lisp 14:55:27 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:56:15 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:02 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 14:59:52 -!- roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 15:00:15 reverse debugging would be a great timesaver when debugging 15:00:39 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:41 what's reversible debugging? 15:01:49 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 15:02:00 capturing each and every side-effect so you can revert it? 15:02:13 (by interpreting the code at the assembly level?) 15:02:15 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 15:02:46 I want to see the text disappear from my console as i reverse debug in time :D 15:03:57 Fare: I've generally seen it as having a step-back/step-up as well as the standard step-in/step-over , not sure if it is trying to do full transactional memory 15:04:30 -!- p0a_ [n=user@athedsl-373341.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 15:04:54 I believe in gdb 7, it pretty much does capture every side-effect. There's a reverse-continue command which runs until you hit a breakpoint. Backwards. 15:06:16 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.71] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 15:06:40 *giggle* 15:07:46 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 15:07:46 or a watchpoint *drool* 15:08:00 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host246.200-117-47.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:10:02 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0D657.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:10:54 this address segfaulted, who touched it? 15:12:08 this got to have some limitations, it's implausible you can run inverse simulations of this accuracy 15:12:44 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-104-176.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 15:12:55 either that, or you're single-stepping the program, capturing whole process/cpu state at every point 15:13:11 Guthur [i=c13dbf29@gateway/web/freenode/x-xywpjjyjtfxmpckd] has joined #lisp 15:13:12 at every instruction 15:13:48 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@190.138.153.100] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:13:50 and this will be slower than valgrind 15:15:44 what they most likely mean is that you can jump between time points the debugger have already been in 15:15:54 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:16:06 interpolation is also plausible 15:16:11 seems that the support for reverse debugging is incomplete as of now - http://sourceware.org/gdb/wiki/ReversibleDebugging 15:16:23 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:16:35 -!- FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:17:09 If you run forwards and then interrupt for GC, then continue. Now reversing this would not detect the GC had been run. But maybe the GC fixes all references so you are going backwards in an path not visited during forward run? 15:17:10 deepfire: this has been done before. Usually, it's a mix of state saves at regular intervals, logging data, and executing (forward) from a saved state. 15:17:17 -!- ASau [n=user@host172-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 15:17:20 There was a "time traveling" debugger demoed at ILC. 15:17:21 But 15:17:21 i 15:17:21 t 15:17:28 But it was for Java. 15:17:58 there is an instruction level simulator that supports reverse debugging - http://www.virtutech.com 15:18:53 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:07 pkhuong, my response was mainly at "this address segfaulted, who touched it" 15:19:09 -!- levy__ [n=levy@apn-89-223-146-44.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:19:28 AIUI you cannot attain that with logging 15:19:33 is there an easy way to creating a deep-copy-list 15:19:37 levy__ [n=levy@apn-89-223-146-44.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 15:19:53 copy constructors would be great but is there anything similar in lisp 15:19:57 well, you can single step from a log point 15:20:38 Guthur: Well, it depends on what 'deep-copy' means. 15:20:53 Guthur: You can certainly copy the cons blocks easily enough using a recursive mapcar. 15:21:10 insttead of just copying the points from one list to the other, i want to copy the objects 15:21:16 Guthur: there's a lib called metacopy 15:21:19 points/pointers 15:21:50 ejs [n=eugen@154-237-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:23 actually, you can bisect the instruction flow from the last logpoint, until you hit the segv 15:22:52 attila_lendvai cheers i will have a look 15:22:53 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-76-124-15-45.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:23:46 Zhivago does copy-list not just do that anyway 15:24:11 Ok, my assessment was wrong, it's doable. 15:25:48 Guthur: Well, there are lists of lists to consider ... 15:26:08 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:26:23 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 15:27:24 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:27:36 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 15:27:47 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:28:04 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:28:05 On another note, I find the written style of Let over Lambda to be hysterically funny. It's the precise opposite of postmodern. 15:28:36 "Lisp is the greatest language ever, I believe it because it's true, and if you disagree you're wrong you moronic cretin" 15:28:56 umm this purely functional approach is going to rather bothersome 15:28:58 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:16 -!- ignas_ [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:29:32 Guthur: if you don't also want to copy the objects, there is copy-tree 15:29:41 dlowe: i find that persuasive. 15:30:08 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:30:31 jlf [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 15:30:44 Guthur: sorry, that should have been directed at Zhivago 15:32:07 dlowe: of postmodern what ? 15:32:32 fe[nl]ix: ism :p 15:32:38 Usually the adjective that fits with 'postmodern' is 'gibberish'. 15:33:11 is ism postmodern 15:33:37 *dlowe* is so sorry he said the p word now. 15:35:36 *Guthur* goes off to consider whether to make specialist copier functions for his list or bend the rules of pure functional'ism' 15:36:17 Guthur: If pure functional is making life harder for you, perhaps it's not living up to its promise. 15:36:32 Guthur: 'copying' has the same philosophical problems as 'comparison'. 15:37:09 Zhivago ya i read that article to hehe 15:37:26 Guthur: Then you understand that you can't make a universal copier, per se. 15:37:46 b 15:38:02 ya but its I was hoping for copy constructors is all 15:38:15 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-9-241.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:20 never thought C++ would actually have something to make life easier 15:38:21 Guthur: so write a copy-object method for your class 15:38:32 dlowe ya 15:38:42 Guthur: then (mapcar #'copy-object object-list) 15:38:47 *dlowe* does not understand the issue. 15:39:22 dlowe you are right its not major 15:39:31 The default copy constructor for C++ is pretty much always the wrong thing, anyway. 15:39:45 i didn't mean the default 15:40:30 its fine i'll make methods 15:40:56 -!- Dodek [n=dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:41:05 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:41:06 i understand more how to do it now, just could stop thinking of constructors hehe 15:41:14 could/couldn't 15:41:15 Guthur: surely you don't mean to say that the implicit copy constructor calls in C++ are helpful? 15:42:14 ya why not if you are doing purely functional 15:43:37 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 15:43:55 I guess it'd work out as long as you don't have any shared references. Still. Ew. 15:45:01 shared references would imply so sort of global state, which would be bad in the case of mutable data 15:45:19 i would have thought that is too close to the imperative paradigm 15:45:41 so/some 15:45:58 Guthur: you wont find many purely functional apologists in this room 15:46:48 hhh guess not, its an experiment really, never looked into much until recently 15:47:11 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 15:47:36 Dodek [n=dodek@156.17.1.251] has joined #lisp 15:47:50 *Fare* apologizes for pure functional programming 15:48:00 lol 15:48:41 Fare its not that bad really 15:49:09 actually I love it. It certainly has its uses, both in theory and in practice. 15:49:24 deterministic compilation is what I'm trying to achieve right now. 15:49:24 must go though, have a lecture soon, programming will have to wait 15:49:29 Harder than I'd like. 15:49:43 milanj [n=milan@93.86.114.25] has joined #lisp 15:50:07 keep up the good work 15:50:13 -!- Guthur [i=c13dbf29@gateway/web/freenode/x-xywpjjyjtfxmpckd] has quit ["Page closed"] 15:51:04 -!- sunwukong [n=vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:51:48 -!- levy__ [n=levy@apn-89-223-146-44.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:51:51 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:23 levy__ [n=levy@apn-89-223-146-44.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 15:53:52 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-8-238.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:53:52 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 15:55:08 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.84.124] has joined #lisp 15:57:15 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 16:00:48 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@pD9E6FB71.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 16:00:56 Joreji [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:04:56 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:05:39 -!- cddr`` [n=user@mail.formedix.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:06:41 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:09:17 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:10:11 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:10:16 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:11:57 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.246.192] has joined #lisp 16:13:27 cddr`` [n=user@mail.formedix.com] has joined #lisp 16:14:48 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:15:05 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:18:55 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:10 ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 16:20:05 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:21:05 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:24 chiiph [n=chiiph@190.1.21.180] has joined #lisp 16:23:31 dialtone [n=dialtone@98.210.155.172] has joined #lisp 16:26:06 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.246.192] has quit [] 16:26:33 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:27:52 levy_ [n=levy@apn-89-223-146-44.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 16:29:15 roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 16:29:21 -!- levy__ [n=levy@apn-89-223-146-44.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:31:58 -!- _quasi [n=_quasi@122.170.37.35] has quit [] 16:35:59 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:38:32 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 16:38:56 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:31 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:40:14 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 16:40:26 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:42:35 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-160-167-144.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:43:20 s0ber [i=pie@118-160-169-230.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:41 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:43:52 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-188-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:44:24 atash [n=chatzill@155.69.164.199] has joined #lisp 16:45:45 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:46:46 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:46:57 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:30 namor [n=namor@dslb-088-072-238-083.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:31 Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-080-147.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 16:47:57 Why would you use CL instead of Clojure? 16:48:19 levy__ [n=levy@apn-89-223-146-44.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 16:48:27 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:48:32 because 16:48:41 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:48:47 namor: I use CL instead of Clojure because I know CL and I don't know Clojure. I also don't know java, and don't have it installed, and don't really want to take the time to learn it right now. 16:49:19 namor: not having to touch java or the jvm is a big plus 16:49:56 -!- levy_ [n=levy@apn-89-223-146-44.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:50:13 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:50:25 fe[nl]ix, doesn't the jvm guarantee portability and rich library support? 16:50:31 hahahaha 16:51:18 namor: the java integration thing is sort of nice, but as a language I'm not convinced it beats CL, and it's certainly very DIFFERENT from CL 16:51:24 also, ick, java 16:51:27 CLASSPATHS! 16:51:30 :) 16:51:49 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 16:51:58 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 16:52:00 nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has joined #lisp 16:52:01 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Client Quit] 16:52:23 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:53:34 namor: that reminds me of the joke that ends with something like "faith and $1.50 will get you a cup of coffee, and only then if your wiatress is named Faith" 16:53:47 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:53:52 Rich does indeed seem to provide good Clojure library support... 16:54:38 *rsynnott* actually uses both, but still, ick, java 16:55:06 If i had to work in a java environment, I would do clojure. 16:55:30 *Xach* would probably do so, too 16:56:07 redblue [i=star@ppp047.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:56:26 i might dabble with javascript since the team has so few lispers :/ 16:57:21 -!- ejs [n=eugen@154-237-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:59:01 ejs [n=eugen@154-237-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:43 -!- Elench is now known as NotElench 17:00:52 ... jvm... portability... wtf? xD 17:01:49 CLASSPATH issues, small differences between implementations, the fact that you still have to deal with OS API-dependant stuff, GUI is broken on X11 (take that, Swing!) 17:02:43 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-179.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 17:04:05 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:44 still the differences are smaller than in the cl world 17:05:36 Yes, i tried to do multithreading (in a convenient way) and networking with CL, all portable. It just didn't work. 17:05:50 minion: bordeaux-threads 17:05:51 bordeaux-threads: Portable shared-state concurrency for Common Lisp Bordeaux-Threads is a library to write multi-threaded applications in a portable way. http://www.cliki.net/bordeaux-threads 17:05:55 minion: usocket 17:05:55 usocket: usocket is an MIT-licensed sockets networking library providing a portability layer encapsulating implementation specific sockets programming details. http://www.cliki.net/usocket 17:07:50 minion: advice on portable 17:07:50 #12017: It doesn't need to be portable, it just needs to work on your system. 17:08:05 xD 17:08:06 -!- jtshell [n=jtshell@d216-232-216-248.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:08:28 just make the darn thing "talk" portable (protocols) :) 17:09:16 pkhuong, bordeaux-threads is low-level multithreading with locking and such. When i said convenient i thought of things like Actors or STM. Also, B-Threads doesn't work clisp, which is the only open CL implementation running well on windows, afaik. (SBCL support being experimental) 17:09:23 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-coloetbmpvjbsfxn] has joined #lisp 17:09:35 ydnkvf 17:09:44 namor: CCL. 17:10:50 Your point regarding abstraction is also completely orthogonal to portability; an actor or stm library only needs to build on top of bx-threads. 17:10:54 namor: Clozure works well on windows, and Clisp has threads now 17:11:02 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@63.107.91.99] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:11:30 pkhuong, B-Threads does not work for CCL. 17:11:52 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 17:12:16 namor, should not be too hard to port if that's the case 17:12:35 woohoo! got commonqt running on mac 17:12:40 nice stuff david, wherever you are 17:12:54 namor: it does. I use it 17:12:56 I see a src/mcl.lisp file in the latest bordeaux-threads, so yes it's supported 17:13:16 mcl, ccl, openmcl, clozurecl -- are you confused yet? 17:13:25 it also supports threaded clisp. 17:13:53 *namor* is; just checked the homepage. 17:13:53 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:14:23 Fare: that's for old MCL. the clozure support is in src/openmcl.lisp 17:14:36 here is pretty much the only amount of code needed to port the act of creating a thread in b-thread to sbcl: (defun %make-thread (function name) (sb-thread:make-thread function :name name)) .. ccl has a pretty similar thread-api .. hire a lisp newb to do it for you if you're too lazy :) 17:14:36 Fare: does mcl not usually indicate the commercial product? 17:14:39 ah 17:14:59 but in any case, yep, openmcl is ccl 17:15:10 rsynnott, why ask ME? 17:15:58 I'll do it for you, I will! Just send me money on PayPal! 17:16:27 Fare: you said that mcl.lisp was the ccl support 17:16:45 so I was asking did that not usually mean MCL the commercial lisp product 17:16:58 (which, confusingly, is now open source) 17:17:46 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 17:18:44 Anyone know why bordeaux-threads not currently building with sbcl with clbuild? 17:19:25 wgl, got paste? 17:20:59 or just do a darcs pull 17:21:22 iirc there where 2 recent patches .. the first one was wrong, the second one fixed the first one .. like that 17:21:36 clbuild tells me "darcs failed: Can't understand repository format: hashed" 17:21:51 upgrade darcs 17:22:00 attila_lendvai talks about darcs and hashes and new versions 17:22:26 $ darcs --version => 2.2.0 17:22:43 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 17:23:05 lnostdal: Yikes. 1.0.9 here. 17:23:15 ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:26 that's like windows 95 old 17:23:33 good afternoon 17:23:49 ah, the brave new era of DVCS, when one must install and maintain roughly eight different vcs clients just to get anything done 17:24:01 Holy cow. ubuntu tells me it is latest. 17:24:12 it is perhaps the ubuntu which is not the latest then .. *sigh* 17:24:25 ubuntu; it's turtles all the way down 17:24:28 rsynnott: Yes, I found that amusing to not only install all these DVCS, but compilers to build them with as well. 17:25:35 -!- roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 17:25:46 Fare, are there plans for an asdf-install-like transport layer for XCVB? 17:27:01 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-57-73.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:27:41 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:27:44 wgl: are you using ubuntu 6.04? 17:27:47 deepfire, only distanat plans. 17:27:59 deepfire, but if you'd like to work on it, yay! 17:28:03 xach ubuntu 8.04 17:28:22 actually, dherring was interested in getting libcl and xcvb to work together -- that would be great 17:28:57 Heh. I'm just doing an ubuntu upgrade now on my scanner box. 17:29:13 nyef from which to which version? 17:29:45 From whatever it was to whatever it's going to be. 17:29:59 I think from 8.04, but I'm not sure. 17:30:13 (Which is the one with the coffee-ring desktop pattern?) 17:30:20 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-71-216.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:30:31 I tried going from 8.04 to 9 and it wouldn't quite make it. 17:30:49 nyef: cat /etc/issue to find out 17:31:04 Meh. Worst comes to worst, I copy all of the important data to a usb stick and wipe the system with a newer install disk. 17:31:51 nyef: coffee ring ubuntu is 8.10 17:32:11 Then that's what I was running. 17:32:24 Finally managed to get it on the network this morning, so I'm doing a round of upgrades. 17:33:11 isn't 8.04 LTS ? 17:33:21 tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 17:35:12 Fare: Yes, but long ends at some point. 17:35:51 It seems like the LTS ones don't give you the upgrade option on the gui update manager. 17:36:30 probably only when the next lts is released 17:36:46 you can tell it to 17:36:58 Xof: from command line? 17:37:01 -!- HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:37:08 I was rather unimpressed when I plugged in the network card and found that the kernel recognized it and the drivers were loaded but networkmanager had no clue about it until I logged out and back in again. 17:37:37 by following the upgrade instructions 17:37:48 you are followying the upgrade instructions, aren't you? 17:38:01 nyef: I had something similar happen, and have begun to think that I should have built this cluster with freebsd. It was the only box that didn't take a dive. 17:39:19 I'm just thinking that Linux really isn't ready for the desktop yet. 17:39:29 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:39:49 nyef, NM sucks. WICD is better. 17:39:58 Well, i am not unhappy with its desktop properties, this was a set of servers. 17:40:00 Having to log out and back in again when connecting a USB network device when on the go is the kiss of death. 17:40:09 nyef, linux is ready for the 1990's desktop 17:40:25 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:26 Yeah, well, the '90s called. They want their idea of usability back. 17:40:38 -!- atash [n=chatzill@155.69.164.199] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.14/2009090216]"] 17:40:52 And ubuntu doesn't seem to default to WICD. 17:41:10 (And my gentoo box is still on the "manually mess about with wpa_supplicant" system.) 17:41:17 I am pretty happy with it. I have dozens of emacs instances running pretty much everyting. 17:41:28 wgl: server, go debian 17:42:08 TR2N [i=email@89-180-182-123.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 17:42:45 Same stuff. My preference is freebsd vs linux. And in fact about to strongly consider putting the web server in openbsd, which i use for the routers. 17:43:22 So, I just looked at my collection of win32 behavioral tests that I put together a while back. Things like how unwind works, or the console interface. And there's no bloody documentation, so I don't even know what some of the tests were -for- or what I learned from them. 17:43:27 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 17:43:36 wgl: it's same stuff up to a point. after that it's just that debian doesn't take unstable packages into the distribution while ubuntu does - well - something like that 17:43:38 Fare: WinXP called, it wants it wifi disability back from NM ;-) 17:45:11 -!- Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:45:41 nyef: yeah NM in 8.04 is b0rken 17:45:57 Fare: is NM ever non-borked? 17:46:10 p_l, dunno I switched to WICD long ago 17:46:16 *p_l* had NetworkManager usable exactly *once* 17:46:36 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:46:46 after that, I found editing /etc/wpa_supplicant.conf to be easier than making NM work :/ 17:47:00 p_l: same 17:47:16 wpa_supplicant.conf and network/interfaces are quite enough for most uses 17:47:20 malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@mreynolds.cs.ucl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:47:31 and then there's wvdial for 3g 17:47:48 guaqua: linux is not bsd 17:48:01 minion: chant 17:48:01 MORE Q 17:48:10 wgl: wasn't claiming that :) 17:48:13 anyone got an recommendations of a free library for manipulating images in CL? Don't need anything too fancy, basically something that makes it as easy as possible to load images of varying formats and get access to an array containing the pixels 17:48:36 I have just tried cl-magick and while it works, the binding is so non-lispy that i wondered if there is a less painful solution 17:48:44 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-080-147.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:48:48 cl-gd, maybe? 17:48:50 *p_l* used shellscripts and pppd for 3G. Works fine :P 17:49:07 I'm studying the code for cl-ppcre in the hopes of learning practical programming techniques. I'm currently looking at the macro MAYBE-COERCE-TO-SIMPLE-STRING and I'm having trouble understanding the reason for implementing it as a macro instead of a function. The way I understand it, the only benefit in this case is that there is no function call overhead, which in my opinion is not a problem in this case. Thoughts? 17:49:36 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:49:45 malcolm_reynolds: lispbuilder-sdl has some image manipulation functions 17:50:02 haroelcabo [n=user@r190-135-32-205.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:50:28 p_l: NM works fine here. even using it for VPNs 17:50:50 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-47.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 17:51:13 ryepup: that looks good from the webpage, but apparently no OS X support? I guess that may be out of date, but either way I can give it a try. thankyou. 17:51:36 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:52:02 DeusExPi1achu: it seems like it could be a function to me, too. maybe it was a critical problem on some platform during benchmarketing. 17:52:03 malcolm_reynolds: be sure to look at the code.google.com version, it does have some OSX support, I see people talking about it on their mailing list 17:52:05 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:53:01 -!- NotElench is now known as Elench 17:53:09 yes, you're right. SBCL on OS X supported. great, thankyou very much! 17:53:20 Xach: thanks that's good insight 17:53:45 -!- levy__ [n=levy@apn-89-223-146-44.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:54:22 levy__ [n=levy@apn-89-223-146-44.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 17:54:51 malcolm_reynolds, Xach has plenty of such libraries 17:55:29 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:55:33 *Xach* is write-only, sadly 17:55:49 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:55:54 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:56:23 Xach: you're saying you have code but it's not publicly available? 17:56:32 malcolm_reynolds: his libs write only 17:56:40 oh sorry, right i see 17:56:52 yeah i'm pretty much just interested in reading in images at the moment 17:56:56 incwolf [n=phil@cpe-76-172-228-179.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:57:07 malcolm_reynolds: My libraries don't load images. png-read is a library for reading PNGs. there's a jpeg loading library. 17:57:17 actually, i take that back. skippy will read and write GIFs. 17:57:18 -!- levy__ [n=levy@apn-89-223-146-44.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:57:25 GIFs can sometimes be exciting. 17:57:40 *Xach* is thinking of http://wigflip.com/thankyoumario/ when he writes that 17:57:51 Xach: aren't MNG supported everywhere already? 17:57:57 yeah i don't know currently what formats I'm going to want (just started PhD in Computer Vision, so maybe things like tiff?) so I was looking for something that did as much as possible 17:57:58 has the GIF patent finally expired? 17:58:07 I think it has in the US 17:58:23 -!- Dodek [n=dodek@156.17.1.251] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:58:34 Fare: Sometime soon I'd like to add APNG support to ZPNG. 17:58:46 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:59:04 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:59:23 what's APNG? the successor to MNG? 17:59:54 APNG is a PNG animation format supported by Firefox. 17:59:59 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:00:31 I don't know if there is any connection to MNG, other than having "NG" at the end and being related to PNG. 18:01:52 Dodek [n=dodek@156.17.1.251] has joined #lisp 18:02:34 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:03:03 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:03:04 anyone know what unix-fu I need when the install instructions say the usual './configure; make; make install' but there is no configure file in the folder.. instead there is a configure.in 18:03:10 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:03:21 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-76-124-15-45.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:31 malcolm_reynolds: autoconf && automake && ./configure 18:03:32 configure.in suggests autoconf 18:03:39 okay, cheers 18:03:46 malcolm_reynolds: run autoreconf 18:03:57 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:57 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 18:04:17 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 18:04:30 top marks yikes, it's telling me 'possibly undefined macro: AM_PATH_ALSA'. on a system that isn't linux, I kind of hope I don't have ALSA 18:04:53 Fare: APNG is a simpler animated PNG than original MNG, also its first frame is read by normal png decoders 18:05:12 does IE know about it? 18:05:19 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:28 it took forever for IE to adopt PNG (and I believe MNG) 18:05:39 will it run in Netscape 3.01 ? 18:06:11 Fare: an APNG file looks like a normal PNG file to viewers that don't understand the extra chunks. 18:06:27 well, SDL wins the 'compiling from source is far harder than it should be' award. i'll get a binary instead. 18:06:39 Fare: you can put a placeholder image in the file that says "Clearly, you should be using a Modern Browser" or similar. 18:07:09 Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-091-146.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 18:07:28 malcolm_reynolds, did you try compiling xemacs recently? 18:08:17 heh. never tried anything that serious. but i mean, I tried all the commands you guys gave me and all the alternate ways to do it listed in the README.MacOSX and it gave a succession of error messages, most of which contained terms that were clear win32 or linux related 18:08:45 it's not like this is the development source, this is supposed to be stable 18:08:53 -!- ejs [n=eugen@154-237-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:09:09 apt-get source foo ; dpkg-buildpackage -bb foo 18:10:21 antifuchs: boinkmarks appear to be broken? 18:11:07 froydnj, any news of tth? I'm run-program'ing tthsum at the time being. 18:11:07 ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-30-221.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:12:29 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:12:47 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:12:59 Fare: it's not on this computer atm; I'll try to blog about it in the next day or so 18:13:14 Fare: it's only ~25 lines of code, not that hard to write 18:13:33 nice 18:13:46 Fare: I think stripping fasls from debug-info is the right route; or perhaps rather extracting the code components from the fasl and compare them 18:13:58 can I later have access to routines to manually merge branches of the tree? 18:14:12 as in, I'd be managing this content-addressed store... 18:14:20 i think having an extra file next to the fasl for the debug info is more exciting 18:14:37 please, no more extra files on the side 18:14:38 I agree with attila 18:14:43 we have cfasl's 18:14:54 I'm with froydnj. 18:15:03 You could perhaps partition the fasl file 18:15:06 froydnj: set up asdf-binary-location 18:15:11 cfasls are the right idea with a wrong implementation 18:15:11 xcvb will have fref's too (for recording and deferred resolution of forward reference warnings) 18:15:39 froydnj, what implementation would you use? file forks? ugh 18:16:10 dave007 [n=dave@inet-bc01-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 18:16:16 so, lisp, fasl, cfasl, fref, dbginfo -- why not? 18:16:17 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:16:28 Fare: tcr's partitioning idea seems better to me, although more difficult to implement 18:16:53 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:16:54 froydnj, will you allow me to add my fref info into the fasl? 18:16:56 Fare: I dislike the idea of COMPILE-FILE producing lots of little files 18:17:05 and strip it? 18:17:05 *Xach* looks around for a slyrus 18:17:18 seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:24 froydnj, I don't either like or dislike the idea. 18:17:34 With multiple file you're always facing the problem of synchronization 18:17:40 But at least I have a standard interface to the filesystem, no such interface to resource forks 18:17:48 Fare: what problem do frefs solve that with-compilation-unit doesn't? 18:17:52 tcr: that's what tthsum is for 18:17:53 At a minimum, tar 'em up or something 18:18:09 froydnj, do you have with-compilation-unit working across multiple processes? 18:18:21 fref are to get it to work indeed 18:18:52 Fare: no, I suppose not. 18:18:53 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:19:10 well fref are there exactly for this purpose. 18:19:25 -!- Dodek [n=dodek@156.17.1.251] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:19:28 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:19:33 Frefs is so far vaporware? 18:19:37 tcr: synchronization is only the question of a sane implementation. and if it's about output generated by different programs then you don't even have a choice (besides setting up a really complicated system that lets third parties inject stuff in your files, but that quickly leads to bdb or something alike) 18:19:37 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A00FC.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:19:52 Is there any reason not to accept (defmethod foo ((x freftype))) as a valid fref? 18:20:28 if someone wants to cheat your synchronization mechanism, he will 18:20:40 if you want to get it working by default, you can 18:21:11 if you want random disorganized attempts to work despite doing stupid things, you will only result in ever crazier bugs 18:21:13 No, I'm thinking of scenarios like first compiling with debug information, then without on modified source etc 18:21:20 my solution: catch the stupid thing early 18:21:36 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:21:49 roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 18:21:57 tcr: if you record what source fasl tth is loaded, you know whether the debug info match it or not 18:22:04 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:22:17 all you need is a directory of what fasl match what lisp and debuginfo 18:22:28 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:22:29 and xcvb will initialize a variable to that directory for you 18:22:31 tcr: then write compile-file or xcvb or whatever so that it cleans up first 18:22:41 so will asdf if it doesn't flounder 18:23:21 I did briefly consider having the "cfasl" and the fasl as a single file (though interleaved, not concatenated), and with a keyword to load to control which effects loading the fasl should have. the problem seemed to be that it would 18:23:24 xcvb-master:*loaded-grains* will contain what you need. I'll add source file and debug info to it 18:23:41 jsnell: Your sentence was truncated 18:23:43 have made checksumming of only cfasls much harder 18:24:03 yes - I like the idea of checksumming cfasl and fasl and debuginfo separately 18:24:34 jsnell, my first reflex would have been single-file, too -- but in retrospect I think you were right 18:25:41 attila_lendvai: Sorry I haven't drinked the xcvb kool-aid yet 18:26:31 male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:37 tcr: what you want is being able to identify if the code object that is run corresponds to the source file you have, right? 18:26:38 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:27:12 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:27:36 What the source-file cache in swank actually tries is to come up with an accurate source snippet of a code object 18:28:17 so it can be searched on the site the source-location points to 18:28:19 and I'm trying to help you there by providing you the tthsum of the source code 18:28:23 can be searched for 18:28:40 that you can then fetch from the nearest content-addressed store 18:29:02 I don't know what tthsum is, and the source file cache is shared between several implementations 18:29:13 tthsum is just a safer md5sum 18:29:34 the tthsum will be shared by all implementations, too 18:29:58 <_3b> malcolm_reynolds: you mifght also try cl-devil for image loading (particularly if you just want to make GL textures out of them) 18:30:13 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-091-146.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:30:19 (though indeed some implementations will cause more recompilations than needed and be less useful in detecting redundant dependencies) 18:30:28 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-203-025.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:30:46 I'll have a look, thanks, but the aim is more to run computer vision algorithms like multi-view stereo etc on them... probably not going to be directly using them as textures 18:31:28 <_3b> ok, it probably works for that too, haven't looked at that part though 18:31:29 i.e. xcvb will provide graceful fallback if implementations insist on generating different fasls for the same source 18:32:23 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.37.35] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:32:23 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:32:42 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.37.35] has joined #lisp 18:32:48 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:32:56 If you want to become convincing you should talk less about what it brings to you, but what it will bring to other people. 18:33:34 it will bring to you the guarantee that a source file is indeed the one you want -- or let you pull the old version of the source file that contains the source code for what you're looking at 18:33:44 can your current source cache do that? 18:34:26 why does it matter? 18:34:56 it will bring you deterministic incremental compilation and testing 18:35:10 so you only compile what has changed, only test what has changed 18:35:33 froydnj, so you're debugging what you believe you're debugging? 18:35:35 Fare: (FWIW, that was a general advise that I've learned) 18:35:44 tcr: sure, and well taken 18:35:53 Fare: yes 18:36:18 or, rather, I believe I'm debugging what I'm supposed to be debugging 18:36:27 I know people who would like to be able to map a code-object to the latest revision that touched the code-object's definition 18:36:37 tcr: can do that too 18:37:13 tcr: *loaded-grains* contains the "fullname" of the file, e.g. "/alexandria/strings" 18:37:24 from which you can find the latest version 18:37:34 Dodek [n=dodek@156.17.1.251] has joined #lisp 18:37:41 _quasi [n=_quasi@122.170.37.35] has joined #lisp 18:37:43 even on a different machine than the image was produced 18:37:51 (unlike with pathnames) 18:37:51 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:38:02 who says that the current latest revision was the revision the code-object resulted from? 18:38:04 kind of a logical-pathname, just portable 18:38:19 tcr: i've spent enough time debugging issues that were direct or indirect results of asdf dumbness... of course you need to build apps with 30+ dependencies, that's where is starts becoming interesting. 18:38:25 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:38:32 tcr: it might not be, so the loaded-grains table ALSO contains the tthsum of the version you used. 18:38:47 (or will, soon) 18:39:19 if your image interactively loaded patches, old versions will be there in the tail of the alist as a reminder 18:40:15 for example i still didn't investigate, but asdf seems to load stuff not constrained by dependencies in filesystem order, which results in broken builds on the real system while works fine on dev machine. or all of a sudden, building breaks because filesystem order changed... 18:40:15 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:40:29 s/real/live/ 18:40:48 attila_lendvai: My point was that each time Fare mentions xcvb he has the psychological effect on people that he's merely trying to sell his stuff for him :) 18:40:55 benny [n=benny@i577A00FC.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:41:04 I'm convinced by the technical merits of xcvb. 18:41:05 attila_lendvai, load order in xcvb is deduced deterministically from specification in the source code 18:41:22 attila_lendvai: so you blame the tool rather than the specification? 18:41:23 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-76-124-15-45.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:41:36 I'm trying to sell it yes -- which is why I'm trying to understand what I need to improve upon to convince you 18:41:47 I'm adding cross reference of the source file on top of the TODO list. 18:42:03 tcr: well, i guess i should also shut up until we build using xcvb, but what fare preaches about sounds good after my experiences with current tools... 18:42:52 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:43:11 froydnj: obviously, that's not even a question to me! the minimum i'm expecting is to do a sort by *anything* deterministic before applying the dependency constraints so that it's at least the build is deterministic... 18:43:42 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:43:47 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-71-216.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:43:49 attila: I sort by the order of the things in the dependency list 18:43:51 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:56 heck, even randomly shuffling them would be better than this 18:43:59 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:43:59 Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-46-116.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:44:01 attila_lendvai: *shrug* patches welcome :) 18:44:02 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.37.35] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:44:14 (except that by recursing, dependencies may be pulled in front) 18:44:48 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 18:45:06 froydnj, my main gripe with ASDF is that compilation is not deterministic. If you load a file from a FASL, effects are very different from if you compiled the source in the first place. 18:45:12 (or can be) 18:45:30 in practice with ASDF you have to recompile from scratch everytime for determinism 18:45:57 Fare: that's ok, but there are files for which there's not any reified dependency constraint, but still depends on something else (due to programmer sloppyness). i'd like a build tool to either produce deterministic behavior in that case, or randomize, so that the missing dependency comes up while developing (although the latter should not be the default) 18:45:59 (and then again, file system order effects -- attila you should submit a patch that sorts alphabetically) 18:46:08 Fare: this is probably already taken care of, but does XCVB centralize fasls? 18:46:26 Adlai, yes it does 18:46:31 as i said, i never took the time to investigate. just recorded the missing dep on hte live system and pushed it 18:46:32 you can configure where 18:47:17 Fare: great. 18:48:18 -!- namor [n=namor@dslb-088-072-238-083.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 18:49:30 nullman [n=nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:37 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-70-58.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:52:05 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:52:31 -!- roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit ["The computer fell asleep"] 18:52:35 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:53:11 roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 18:53:31 freenode [n=user@81.253.44.215] has joined #lisp 18:53:54 -!- freenode is now known as Guest59570 18:53:54 look how beautiful and efficient is mixing C with common lisp: http://paste.lisp.org/display/88396 18:55:22 -!- Guest59570 is now known as francogrex 18:55:56 sorry that was me with a messup nickname 18:56:30 I'm sure you can do this in CL. But it's more efficient the way it's done use the C mixing 18:57:28 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:57:42 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:57:57 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:58:49 one disadvatnage here is that you need to know in advance the size of the data in your file 18:59:41 also: you have to know C 18:59:45 francogrex, how much does it improve performance? 18:59:48 francogrex: what kind of efficiency gains are you seeing? 19:00:02 why need to know in advance? 19:00:12 can't you loop until you reach the end? 19:00:12 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:00:14 Fare: the C reads until line N and returns 19:00:22 Joreji [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:00:35 Xach: yes a little C not really needed; just a simple C reference book by your side is enough 19:00:38 Fare: (not that it can't do something smarter) 19:00:47 smanek [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:51 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:01:48 Fare, ryepup: it has still to be measured the efficieny, all I see is that for a file of 150,000 rows, it was read in less that half a second (if that indeed can be measured) 19:02:23 francogrex, whereas before? 19:02:57 Fare: it's not the read until line that is limiting, it's the allocate size of the make-array that has to be set in advance 19:02:57 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:03:28 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:03:30 Fare: whereas before I don't know really. It was annoying me reading into lists and then doing the "coerce" trick 19:03:55 it fealt like wasting memory and energy before 19:04:21 francogrex: felt != knew 19:04:28 -!- dave007 [n=dave@inet-bc01-o.oracle.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:05:10 ryepup: u don't think it is wasteful to read into lists and then coerce? 19:05:11 francogrex, aren't you using vector-push-extend? You don't have to get the make-array size right! 19:05:13 -!- nullman is now known as nullman` 19:05:39 Fare: I'm using vector-push only 19:05:48 francogrex: it's easy to get it right with a simple CL reference book by your side. 19:05:51 meh, use vector-push-extend, then! 19:06:13 then vector-push-extend yes u're right! 19:06:26 *francogrex* slaps himeself on the forehead 19:06:30 francogrex, reading into lists then coerce can actually be more space efficient 19:06:34 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:36 francogrex: I suspect there are pure-lisp solutions to those kind of wasteful problems 19:07:01 ryepup: do you have a simple code? 19:07:06 -!- _quasi [n=_quasi@122.170.37.35] has quit [] 19:07:18 francogrex: no, but it sounds like vector-push-extend is a great place to start 19:07:27 Xach: same question as ryepup then; can you whip up a simple code? 19:07:57 -!- nullman` is now known as nullman 19:08:01 emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-11-230.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:08:09 francogrex: Sure. What's the problem specification? 19:08:13 Fare: reading into lists then coerce can actually be more space efficient <<< why? 19:08:26 -!- nullman [n=nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:08:34 nullman [n=nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:01 Xach: reading from a csv file directly into vectors BUT without passing by any lists or using coerce 19:09:57 francogrex: Do you have an example file, and the return value you want? 19:10:27 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:10:30 I'll justmake up one and post it 19:10:42 I was wondering, is there any reason why MULTIPLE-VALUE-PROG1 is a special form and not a macro? It seems to me that it would be possible to implement it as a macro, maybe with a minor performance hit than if it were a special form. 19:11:30 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:11:33 how would you implement it as a macro? values-list? 19:12:08 yes, something of that sort. I should try to do it. 19:12:18 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:12:34 that's not going to be a minor performance hit. it'd make it unacceptably slow 19:12:37 multiple-values-list and values-list (which both seem to end up being implemented using multiple-value-call and #'list #'values) 19:12:47 -!- jlf [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:12:59 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-178.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:13:02 francogrex, because your end-array will be the correct size, and the GC will easily get rid of the cons cells 19:14:15 jsnell, wouldn't a good compiler be able to use a more clever implementation anyway? At least it seems to me SBCL does do some optimizations under-the-hood for some functions and macros 19:14:37 the compiler's implementation is already more clever :) 19:14:39 basically, what I was wondering is why is it warranted to be a special form if it can be implemented as a macro 19:15:08 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 19:15:40 <_3b> ljames: by that logic, you coulg get rid of let and let* too 19:15:54 -!- Dodek [n=dodek@156.17.1.251] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:15:54 the idea of returning multiple values is that you can avoid consing up a list of returned values 19:15:56 Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/88397 19:16:30 and you don't really all of tagbody/go, block/return-from, catch/throw either 19:16:38 I suppose, let* can be implemented as nested let's, and LET itself can be implemented by a lambda + call to it 19:16:45 -!- nullman is now known as nullman` 19:16:54 -!- nullman` is now known as nullman 19:17:18 Dodek [n=dodek@156.17.1.251] has joined #lisp 19:17:23 ljames: a special form is much more parcimonious than having it be a macro and then requiring compilers to recognize the special case (as though it were a special form, only hidden). There's enough use of "a good enough compiler" -style thinking in CL already. 19:17:36 also, it seems multiple-values-list and values-list is just (multiple-value-call #'list form) and (apply #'values list) 19:17:36 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:17:55 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:18:13 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:18:22 *francogrex* will be back in a few minutes 19:18:23 ljames, and numbers can be implemented as Church integers. 19:18:53 haroelca` [n=user@r190-135-30-8.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:19:07 well, that's too different from normal CPU's architecture, it would also be incredibly slow for most tasks. 19:19:14 -!- francogrex [n=user@81.253.44.215] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:19:35 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-30-169.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:19:49 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:20:09 -!- seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:22:21 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:40 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:23:10 mikl0 [n=mikl0@cpe-66-68-239-227.rgv.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:23:25 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.37.35] has joined #lisp 19:23:48 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:24:49 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.84.124] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:26:20 hmm 19:26:44 -!- mikl0 [n=mikl0@cpe-66-68-239-227.rgv.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 19:26:45 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-82-22.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 19:26:45 *Xach* got slightly burned by (make-string-output-stream :element-type 'gibberish) 19:27:17 lol @ "Xach got burned... you have to set yourself on fire." 19:27:17 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:27:57 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:28:32 I guess my understanding of the term "special form" was incorrect, I understood it as "A form with special syntax/evaluation rules which can do things that can only be done in the compiler/interpreter implementation. Everything else could theorethically be built upon them.", while the Hyperspec's definition is "special form n. a list, other than a macro form, which is a form with special syntax or special evaluation rules or both, possibly manipulating the e 19:29:43 ljames, see a famous hbaker article on implementing some special forms in terms of others 19:29:43 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:30:12 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:31:14 hmm, this "Metacircular Semantics for Common Lisp Special Forms" ? 19:31:14 jlf [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 19:31:18 reminds me of an al jaffee cartoon where he explains how to make a chisel from a screwdriver, a file from a chisel, etc., back to a screwdriver 19:31:57 Thanks, I'll read it. 19:32:18 -!- sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 19:32:59 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:33:19 ljames: You can also implement LET* directly via LAMBDA by using &AUX parameters 19:33:30 nested lets is tricky 19:33:33 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malc@mreynolds.cs.ucl.ac.uk] has quit [] 19:34:21 seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:27 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:34:48 ksergio [n=vmplanet@mail.nuecho.com] has joined #lisp 19:35:24 hello everybody. has anyone used cl-xmpp with ejabberd succesfully? 19:35:39 francogrex [n=user@81.253.44.215] has joined #lisp 19:35:39 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:35:53 Xach: it's ok? 19:35:58 Weren't &aux parameters considered both less than useful and unstylish? 19:35:59 -!- haroelcabo [n=user@r190-135-32-205.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:36:14 They're perfectly useful for implementing LET*. 19:36:28 what's an alternative to &aux? 19:36:32 LET* 19:37:01 there was a thread on c.l.l the other day that showed a use of &aux which couldn't be done with LET* 19:37:05 francogrex: I annotated with an example implementation. 19:37:32 hey great but I lost the link :( can you paste it plesae? Thanks 19:37:34 -!- Dodek [n=dodek@156.17.1.251] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:37:54 http://paste.lisp.org/display/88397#1 19:38:14 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-32-193.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:38:36 francogrex: I made a test file with 150,000 lines and it took 0.8 seconds to load. Perhaps it is too slow. 19:39:18 Dodek [n=dodek@156.17.1.251] has joined #lisp 19:39:58 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 19:40:15 Xach: I'd be curious to see how the C version performs using an adjustable array 19:40:47 swathanthran [n=user@117.204.89.14] has joined #lisp 19:40:49 err, francogrex ^^ 19:41:18 Xach: > (LOAD-CSV "c:/test.csv") >>> " "Subject-3" " " "Subject-8" ") 19:41:41 I don't know why this happened? 19:41:46 francogrex: Are you using SBCL? 19:42:12 minion: fare-csv 19:42:13 both sbcl and ecl: BUT on WIN32 19:42:13 fare-csv: fare-csv is a small Text utility to process CSV files. http://www.cliki.net/fare-csv 19:42:14 francogrex: I suspect you are getting multiple characters to signal the end of a line. 19:42:17 rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:42:28 tcr: I have Fare's I used it it's fine 19:42:29 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:42:49 francogrex: one option: add a clause to the case of something like ((#\Return)) 19:42:57 Xach; i guess I'll try later on linux, it will work. Anyway uour a lisp magician! 19:43:19 francogrex: I don't think this example is particularly magical. 19:43:54 newdevide [n=kenan@88.238.45.48] has joined #lisp 19:45:03 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:45:24 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:45:28 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:33 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 19:45:37 when i install clbuild as a normal user, it is installed in the user folder, but i want it to run for every user, should i install as root 19:45:40 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 19:45:57 newdevice: won't work. 19:46:02 newdevide: i could be wrong, but i don't think that is an operating mode of clbuild 19:46:41 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.153.68] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:46:48 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.115.215.149] has joined #lisp 19:48:18 Xach: yes, my mistake, in fact i'm not just a noob lisper but also a noob linux user, i switched to linux for lisp recently. 19:49:21 what i'm asking is is it possible to set my lisp environment to run for all users. 19:49:26 ok guys. See u tomorrow; time to go browsing internet porn... eh I mean doing some work coding for tomorrow's meetings with the IT department.. 19:49:34 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:49:47 newdevide: i don't think it's an odd desire, it's just that clbuild isn't set up to work like that. 19:50:00 newdevide: how many users do you have? 19:50:37 -!- francogrex [n=user@81.253.44.215] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:52:12 in fact one, but i was asking for that because i am probably gonna screw something soon (because i'm not familiar with linux) and i'll set a new user and use that, probably 19:53:12 newdevide: in that case, you'll just have to set up another clbuild. 19:54:06 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:54:15 :) ok then, thanks 19:56:54 newdevide: which distro are you on? 19:57:24 tcr: i have this slime related issue https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/444427 ... what do you think about this, should it be fixed in swank, or should i workaround it from outside? 19:58:34 tcr: ...at least it should get into a TODO list. a comment at "(defvar *log-output* nil) ; should be nil for image dumpers" is not much... 19:59:10 -!- Dodek [n=dodek@156.17.1.251] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:04:48 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:05:10 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-147-40-39.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:05:15 Adlai: debian lenny 5.01 20:05:26 Dodek [n=dodek@sandbox.dbc.wroc.pl] has joined #lisp 20:05:34 Adlai: sorry for delay :\ 20:06:27 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:06:40 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 20:06:47 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:06:48 newdevide: heh no need to be sorry. 20:07:08 If you're on debian, you should probably stay away from the package manager's CL stuff 20:07:36 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 20:08:05 -!- nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:08:33 whr [n=user@chello084010174133.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 20:09:27 Adlai: now i installed latest sbcl binary from sbcl webpage, i see that this is needed for clbuild to build the latest sbcl sources, and i guess have all other stuff like cvs wget etc. now i'm downloadind clbuild, i hope i haven't missed any steps. and yes, i heard that debian repository versions are a bit far from being new 20:09:53 sounds like you're on the right track. 20:10:05 I'm very new to Linux too -- basically same as your story. 20:11:55 basically there's no need to install any lisp stuff from apt. version control programs are, however, easier to just install from apt 20:12:30 *guaqua* uses sbcl from debian to build the sbcl he uses 20:16:04 it was a bit of a problem for me to switch linux because all of the software that i use in work is for win, but it was i was dying to meet mcclim and other stuff that doesn't normally work on windows, so i switched 20:19:38 someone wouldn't happened to have a password for IEEE xplore they would let me use to download some journals? 20:20:34 i can legitimately get access, but i don't know the uni password at the mo, and i would like to review some things tonight 20:21:09 Guthur: ssh to a box on your school's network (or use the VPN if you can). 20:25:10 <_3b> newdevide: it is possible, but would probably take some work to do safely 20:25:31 <_3b> oops, i seem to hae been scrolled back 20:25:35 cool the u/name p/word is on the site 20:26:14 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-57-73.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 20:30:49 froydnj: http://sbcl.boinkor.net/boinkmarks/index is the new url 20:30:57 I really should setup that redirect one of those days 20:30:57 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:31:06 _3b: :) yet, thanks for reply, now i see that setting up clbuild is not as hard as it seems, i guess i should stick with doing allover again approach if i screw something 20:31:07 antifuchs: redirect and/or update links :) 20:33:00 <_3b> newdevide: right, setting it up so the users wouldn't interfere with eachother would be the hard part of a shared setup anyway :) 20:33:16 marioxcc [n=user@201.132.51.59] has joined #lisp 20:33:27 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:33:47 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-206-8-51.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:34:34 frontiers [n=frontier@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:34 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:34:35 salva_ [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 20:35:46 now i'm lost again, during the check it says it cannot find a working installation of git, but it seems installed at synaptic, does it mean packages like "git-cvs" 20:36:07 <_3b> apt calls it git-core i think 20:36:28 <_3b> (there was already some unrelated package named git, so installing that doesn't help) 20:36:59 *froydnj* imagines the boinkmarks might be interesting if they ran longer...or we came up with some new ones 20:37:26 froydnj: with the new app I've adjusted run times so that the baseline runtime of each benchmark is about 2-3s 20:37:43 this helped with accuracy on some benchmarks 20:37:46 but not on all of them 20:38:26 maybe someone should try and build a new set of benchmarks. 20:38:40 yes, that would be a very good idea 20:38:46 I'd be willing to donate cpu time (-: 20:39:05 yes, works after git-core, thanks again :) 20:39:32 wonder how worthwhile it would be to track something like shootout programs 20:40:30 froydnj: that'd increase the temptation to recognize a mandelbrot inner loop even more ;) 20:42:07 <_3b> 'Shootout Better Common Lisp' ? 20:43:02 pkhuong: :) 20:43:26 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:44:05 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:44:05 oh yeah, I also threw away the most useless benchmarks; hope nobody minds (-: 20:44:23 -!- swathanthran [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:45:34 is there a tool in LDB to inspect the heap and explain why a given object is reachable? 20:46:06 Fare: not in ldb. 20:46:10 something that would run a GC, and annotate each node with the shortest path to the roots 20:46:18 doesn't have to be in ldb 20:46:22 in LDB, I don't think so, but you can use the heap walker in lisp 20:46:30 I think jsnell had code for this a while ago 20:46:31 I think the boehm gc had such a feature 20:47:20 I could use that 20:47:56 hehe lisp kicks pythons ass on the shootout 20:47:56 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:48:09 Retardedpope [n=Retarded@c-66-56-9-145.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:12 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:48:22 guthur: very low bar 20:48:33 ya i was looking for one 20:48:47 it doesn't stack up that bad though 20:48:53 lisp that is 20:49:06 How does pointers work in lisp? 20:49:18 Fare: this may be of some use: http://dwim.hu/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=HEAD%20hu.dwim.debug;a=headblob;f=/source/path-to-root.lisp 20:49:29 especially against C# 20:49:31 Retardedpope: you dont think about them and they do their job (for most cases) 20:49:41 Fare: it's down somewhere on the TODO to add it to sb-introspect 20:49:49 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:49:56 bobbysmith007: how do I know when I'm using a pointer? 20:50:10 Retardedpope: You usually don't manipulate pointers directly in CL 20:50:20 Retardedpope, (sb-sys:int-sap #x1029810950) 20:50:26 not sure what k-nucleotide is 20:50:38 Retardedpope: um... well for the most part everything you do is via a pointer, but again if you are thinking about it alot, you probably are doing it wrong 20:50:54 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 20:50:55 Retardedpope, it's like being in love, when you do, you'll know it. 20:51:02 Retardedpope: what are you trying to do that makes you feel like you need to be worried about it? 20:51:06 heh 20:51:08 Guthur: a string replacement benchmark that would be ridiculously easy to improve by inserting some specialization in cl-ppcre 20:51:31 thats where lisp is worse, though i'm sure you seen 20:52:19 bobbysmith007: I will have the elements of a hash table linked to other elements in that hash table... 20:52:26 Overcyn [n=Overcyn@c-24-18-236-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:33 Guthur: *shrug* 20:52:47 Retardedpope: in first approximation, you can think of cons cell as of pair of pointers 20:52:55 Fare: there are even some tests here: http://dwim.hu/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=HEAD%20hu.dwim.debug;a=headblob;f=/test/path-to-root.lisp 20:53:27 ya not a biggy but i think some people still point to bad performance of lisp as a reason not to use it, but i think that sort of thinking is in the past 20:53:31 although they are more like stuff to copy-paste 20:54:04 Guthur: they do it for as long as i remember, and will continue so, no matter how much advocacy is there 20:54:12 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-178.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:54:35 Retardedpope: so each object in that hashtable references other objects in the hash table; this is not generally problematic, Do you have a specific concern? 20:55:59 bobbysmith007: I just want to be sure that I'm really using pointers and not physical copies and I also want to be sure that the physical object is not deleted by the gc.... 20:56:08 -!- ska` [n=user@ppp-58-8-125-153.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:56:34 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:56:44 bobbysmith007: I'm also wondering about how to retrieve the pointer I will be using 20:56:52 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:57:32 Retardedpope: you are not using physical copies 20:57:50 bobbysmith007: well good then... 20:57:54 <_3b> Retardedpope: just use the object directly 20:58:20 Retardedpope: as long as someone somewhere still refers to the object in the hashtable (even another object in the hashtable) it will not be garbage collected (assuming you still reference the hashtable somewhere) 20:58:40 bobbysmith007: you mean, refers to the hash table. 20:59:34 noob question. is there a function in lisp that does nothing? 20:59:34 So I can just assume that I'm allways passing by reference and that the garbage collector won't screw with me? Kinda like Java? 20:59:53 Retardedpope: like java yes 21:00:10 Retardedpope: though probably backed with somewhat better algos if I had to guess 21:00:25 <_3b> dunno, there is lots of money behind java :/ 21:00:43 bobbysmith007: I certainly hope so... 21:00:44 _3b: thats why it was only a guess, but yes I agree 21:00:57 SUN's JVM has a pretty bad ass GC. Same with IBM's. 21:01:20 then I stand corrected 21:01:36 (I dont do much JVM stuff) 21:02:02 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.37.35] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:02:37 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.37.35] has joined #lisp 21:03:54 Retardedpope: yes you can mostly assume you are passing by reference 21:04:25 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:05:17 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:20 so. again. is there a expression that does nothing? 21:07:27 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 21:07:31 tcr: herep 21:07:58 Overcyn: (values) ??? sortof does nothing 21:08:08 Overcyn: what do you mean by nothing? 21:08:25 Overcyn: as does (progn) 21:08:25 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:08:35 i dont know. when i use the if conditional it requires me to have something in the else area. 21:08:53 Overcyn: you probably want to look at when / unless and cond 21:08:57 and i want function to be there that does nothing 21:09:14 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:09:30 Overcyn: "when" is like if but with only the first branch 21:09:45 bobbysmith007: is there a way to do that without using when? 21:10:02 Overcyn: um... (and exp1 exp2) ? 21:10:09 Overcyn: why dont you want to use when? 21:10:12 Overcyn: I don't think you need an else, but you could just put nil in the else area... 21:10:27 Overcyn: also (cond ((exp1) body)) 21:10:37 (cond (exp1 body)) 21:10:39 nil doesnt work 21:10:51 Overcyn: then you are doing something wrong already, nil should work 21:11:14 Overcyn: what lisp are you using? CL doesn't require an else clause to if. 21:11:14 Overcyn: (if T (exec this) nil) is a valid lisp expression 21:11:30 i get "unbound identifier in module in: nil" 21:11:33 pkhuong / froydnj: I am right, aren't I, that (make-random-state ) is a lame interface? 21:11:35 when i tried to use nil 21:11:44 not CL 21:11:54 Overcyn: so what are you using then? 21:12:01 im using plt scheme 21:12:08 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:12:12 Overcyn: you might want to head to #scheme then 21:12:23 this is just common lisp? 21:12:25 Overcyn: while called #lisp this is really #common-lisp 21:12:32 oh 21:12:33 sorry 21:12:40 Overcyn: no prob 21:13:45 -!- Overcyn [n=Overcyn@c-24-18-236-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:14:04 rvirding [n=chatzill@h52n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:15:36 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32D9E5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:26 -!- newdevide [n=kenan@88.238.45.48] has left #lisp 21:16:36 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Client Quit] 21:17:57 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:17:57 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:18:23 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:22:56 Krystof, yes it is lame 21:23:21 I'd like something that takes a string or ub8 array, so I can feed select stuff from /dev/random 21:23:22 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:23:29 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:23:35 or a tthsum, or whtaever 21:24:00 that said (make-random-state ) is not necessarily bad 21:24:26 ub32 is probably too small 21:24:49 Yeah, shouldn't it be an array of something like 437 ub-32s? 21:25:14 ISTM that it should be a ub8 string. 21:25:34 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:25:44 (make-random-state "two hundred and fifty-five")? 21:26:15 If it's the right length for the current random number generation, it gets used directly. If not, it gets used as random seed. 21:26:31 Then, the API doesn't change if the algorithm changes 21:26:50 How about being able to specify (make-random-state (constantly 2)) ? 21:27:11 seems pretty useless 21:27:35 <_3b> does it have to be limited to 32 bits for an int? 21:27:47 2 is random! 21:28:53 Being able to feed a specific sequence of numbers to a program via RANDOM seems like a possibly-useful thing. 21:29:30 <_3b> yeah, could be nice to be able to plug in a random generator from some other platform/implementation 21:29:36 Sortof like being able to always get the -same- sequence, but with the added possibility of being able to specify a specific sequence that gives the program fits. 21:30:52 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:32:42 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:33:14 mcdonji [n=mcdonji@70.75.0.48] has joined #lisp 21:34:09 Can a symbol both be a symbol-macro and a "normal" macro? 21:34:27 At the same time? 21:34:41 *_3b* would assume so 21:34:47 maybe look at procedure generation techniques for that, you give a seed an it generates the same thing, though is random num generator not like that anyway 21:34:47 Yeah, they're different contexts. 21:34:58 procedure/procedural* 21:35:01 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.114.25] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:35:10 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:35:14 A symbol-macro is triggered in a variable context, a normal macro is triggered in a function context. 21:35:36 That said, double-check the evaluation rules. 21:35:45 nyef: always? what if I have symbol macro in a function context? 21:35:57 Tried to check but couldn't find it 21:36:37 clhs 3.1.2.1.2 21:36:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_abab.htm 21:36:48 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2366.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:37:13 And 3.1.2.1.1 for the other side. 21:37:18 Looks like they're disjoint. 21:37:22 Anyway, I'm gone for a bit. 21:39:31 yes, looks like you don't expand symbol macros in the function context 21:39:42 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has left #lisp 21:40:26 rvirding, ltns -- how's lfe? 21:40:51 not bad, it's coming on 21:40:52 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-105-179.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:41:07 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:41:12 slowly improving and expanding it 21:41:21 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:41:32 Intensity [i=[BdLfKfG@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 21:41:35 Thought symbol macros would be practical 21:42:27 -!- male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [] 21:42:28 Fare: what became of the erlang in lisp? 21:42:50 -!- whr [n=user@chello084010174133.chello.pl] has left #lisp 21:43:44 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-144-83.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 21:43:46 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:15 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:44:33 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-5-156.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:45:15 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:46:47 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:07 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:49:20 SBCL question: I would like to disable the debugger when restarting with a lisp image. How do I do this? Do I need to save the world in a run started with --disable-debugger? 21:50:07 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 21:50:35 you could call sb-ext:disable-debugger 21:50:37 rpg: (sb-ext:disable-debugger) works at runtime 21:50:43 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:51:20 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:51:24 i don't remember if its effects persist in the saved image, though. you could add it to the toplevel function if not. 21:51:36 *_3b* thinks they do 21:52:15 jsnell, Xach: thanks. 21:53:03 I was confused, because it seemed like when I restarted the saved image, passing --disable-debugger to it, --disable-debugger wasn't processed. 21:53:41 Need to do some more investigation. 21:54:31 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:54:32 Fare: I'm ocassionally on #lisp but usually silent, just absorbing the wisdom :-) 21:54:39 rpg: you have a custom toplevel function? 21:54:48 jsnell: Yes. 21:54:59 investigation complete 21:55:24 jsnell: D'oh. Of course. The toplevel arguments are called that...because they are processed by the toplevel! 21:55:48 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0D657.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:49 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:56:19 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:56:25 *rpg* slaps forehead 21:56:32 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:56:50 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:57:55 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:06 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:58:41 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:00:51 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.37.35] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:00:54 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:02:24 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:02:45 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:04:42 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@72.85.235.154] has quit [] 22:05:22 -!- seisatsu_ [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-33-92-164.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:05:30 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-33-92-164.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:51 rvirding, not enough steam behind it. But I intend to do something about it soon, whether in CL or jumping ship to PLT Scheme 22:06:03 btw, what do you think of termite? 22:07:08 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 22:08:00 it's ok, but not the real thing of course :-) 22:08:10 -!- roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 22:08:52 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 22:08:52 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:09:06 I think they can't kill threads very well, which sucks 22:09:18 killing processes makes erlang fun 22:09:21 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:09:23 chain killing 22:09:27 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:09:33 serial killing? mass killing? tree killing? 22:09:39 linked killing? 22:09:49 I can't remember if they are thread based or use green threads 22:09:56 yes,we do it so well 22:09:59 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 22:10:04 do you have a name for it? 22:10:52 -!- mcdonji [n=mcdonji@70.75.0.48] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:10:54 how do you mean? 22:12:05 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-144-83.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:12:16 roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 22:13:22 mass death of trees of linked processes? 22:13:36 lumberjacking? 22:14:04 no we don't have a name for it. we don't really care how many processes we kill 22:14:06 collective suicides? 22:14:07 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:14:08 in one go 22:14:31 well only suicides, the rest just follow it into the grave 22:14:49 panurge's sheeps? 22:14:56 lemming death? 22:15:44 that's why I wanted a model where a process with plenty of cooperative threads represents a (good chunk of) a tree 22:16:00 s/cooperative/native/ 22:16:04 or both 22:16:06 anyway 22:16:20 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 22:16:55 ah, well that was our model. A number of processes cooperating on one thing 22:17:04 if one dies they must all die 22:17:52 we don't use native thread though, way to heavy 22:18:05 at least we don't use them erlang processes 22:18:07 can an erlang process dynamically attach / detach from the tree? if it can, do you use the feature? 22:19:03 there is no tree as such, the process space is flat, and no implicit structure 22:19:11 all links are explicit 22:19:17 (or do you just spawn a new process with a continuation to have it be unlinked) 22:19:29 a process can explicitly unlink itself from all other processes 22:19:34 ok 22:19:50 one by one though and it is unsafe 22:19:56 unsafe? 22:20:21 well while i am busy unlinking then another process can link to me 22:20:40 did you realize the connections with the Actor model at the time? 22:20:46 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:20:47 though I can trap exits which means tht I won't die if a process I am linked to crashes 22:21:01 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:21:11 no I never heard of the actor model until much later :-) 22:21:22 I don't think the others knew of it either 22:21:33 great minds think alike 22:21:47 too modest to say it 22:21:48 I think the join calculus guys didn't realize they were reinventing it, too 22:22:00 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 22:22:34 (I think you reinvented it best) 22:22:46 (better than the original, for sure) 22:23:20 we were very problem driven, and it suited the way we envisaged programming the system 22:24:09 yeah Actors was too philosophical 22:24:17 and join calculus too formal 22:24:36 I don't think they've maintained jocaml in years 22:25:59 it makes it easy to set up ad hoc structures 22:26:23 which we though a good thing 22:26:27 actually, they reimplemented jocaml - yeah! 22:26:41 and it is conceptually very simple 22:26:49 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.208.135] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 22:26:57 I don't know how jocaml handles process death and linking, if at all. 22:27:48 sorry can't help you there, don't know jocaml 22:27:54 what is the jo? 22:28:40 join-calculus 22:28:42 in jocaml I mean 22:28:57 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:29:18 i.e. when some pattern of messages are received together by the process, it reacts 22:29:39 instead of handling messages one by one, they are processed jointly 22:29:46 aha 22:29:52 so you can also model state as one of the messages joined in the queue 22:29:54 it's elegant 22:29:55 join-calculus is that relational calculus? 22:30:09 not more expressive, but indeed much nicer for typing. 22:30:26 no relationship with SQL joins, if that's what you mean 22:30:41 yes typing processes and messages is practically impossible in erlang 22:30:54 we don't even try 22:30:57 whereas it's nicely done in jocaml 22:31:11 I'm sure you could try harder in erlang 22:31:25 the plt guys are typing colloquial scheme 22:31:34 applying the same techniques could work for erlang 22:31:34 Fare, ya it just made me think of the relational model 22:32:06 prefer relational algebra 22:32:13 it probably makes your state machine nicer, too 22:32:22 yes but it goes against the grain of it all, and would require a major rethink 22:32:32 possibly 22:32:35 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:32:39 I didn't think too hard about it. 22:33:14 anyway -- if you're looking for topics on which to launch phd students, there you go 22:33:19 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp047.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:33:33 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:33:42 one advantage of jocaml is that it can lead to very good compilation, etc. 22:33:56 you could do it by having typed channels for communication 22:34:16 would be part of the deal, I'm sure 22:34:24 good night 22:34:27 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 22:34:36 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06ee67.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["shutting down"] 22:34:46 I'm told you could look at game semantics, too -- though I admit I don't really understand game semantics 22:35:39 not with you there 22:35:55 uh? 22:36:31 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 22:36:36 game semantics? 22:36:36 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:37 fare do you mean game theory commodity control 22:36:54 (my plan was to develop some more erlang-in-lisp style stuff to distribute xcvb) 22:36:54 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:36:59 Guthur, uh? 22:37:11 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:37:42 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A00FC.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:37:58 well the commodity control bit probably makes it less clear, i think i made that up, but i was reading (abstract) of game theory for control of public goods 22:38:12 and their provision 22:38:19 sharing stuff basically 22:38:43 Public Goods Provision: An Evolutionary Game 22:38:43 Theoretic Study Under Asymmetric Information 22:38:52 oops that should have been one line 22:39:39 Guthur, you should read http://fare.tunes.org/liberty/public_goods_fallacies.html 22:39:53 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-55.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 22:40:00 but no, game semantics is only distantly related to game theory 22:40:32 at least, as used to formalize types of computer programs 22:40:52 but we are removing people 22:40:55 see particularly section 3 of my article 22:41:10 hehe i jumped straight to section 3 22:41:18 note that "public goods" is a stolen concept. 22:41:28 -!- smanek [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:42:15 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:42:20 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:43:19 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:33 free market you talk about seems to assume equal players, not possible i think 22:44:55 nope it doesn't 22:45:00 always someone in control with more power, unless you reset everything 22:45:31 actually, free marketeers deny the notion of equality or any notion of scalar utility much less interpersonal scalar utility comparisons 22:45:37 minion: memo for gigamonkey: Great post. 22:45:38 Remembered. I'll tell gigamonkey when he/she/it next speaks. 22:46:08 Guthur: always some people with more power, ergo you must relinquish it all to the mother-of-all concentrations of power? 22:46:41 monopolies always seem to happen even in free markets 22:46:42 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:46:56 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:47:02 that's a myth, quite the opposite is true 22:47:13 and the monoplizer will protect their position at all cost 22:47:20 MS is case in hand 22:47:35 they would have bought companies just to remove them 22:47:49 see the AT&T story, typical monopoly -- lost 50% market share after the end of their patents by the time they successfully lobbied the gvt for geographic monopolies 22:47:49 admittedly their grip may be slipping 22:47:58 MS is due to IP monopolies 22:48:47 railways were gov monopoly, and the sherman act was voted precisely to impede the actions of the only railway that wasn't a huge gov operation, that didn't kill any indian, etc. 22:48:59 ya i would like to see such things removed 22:49:01 that didn't racket farmers, etc. 22:49:02 IP that is 22:49:35 the "antitrust" things are creating gov oligopolies and hurting consumers 22:49:42 but the people in power are the people who own or are connected to the companies in a lot of cases 22:49:46 so who is to blame 22:50:05 Guthur, first thing, don't listen to their propaganda 22:50:09 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B3C9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:50:19 or their fake "economics" -- go read about Austrian economics 22:50:24 -!- haroelca` [n=user@r190-135-30-8.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #lisp 22:50:30 i'm a crappy consumer anyway so its not much odds to be 22:50:37 but I gotta go -- go to #mises for the rest of this discussion 22:50:41 i don't like that petrol is so expensive though 22:51:00 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:51:01 *_3b* grumbles about people monopolizing the public good of optopicness 22:51:13 night fare 22:51:35 *_3b* should just learn to log out of irc when i wan tto concentrate or something :p 22:52:00 _3b what optopicness 22:52:01 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:52:07 <_3b> exactly 22:52:16 <_3b> sorry, ontopicness 22:52:34 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:52:35 well it was vaguely on topic to begin with 22:52:50 game theory can be applied to some problems 22:53:12 not necessarily socio-economic ones though 22:53:37 <_3b> right, but it drifted a bit from there... wouldn't have said anything if i had noticed one of the participants left already though 22:54:29 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.115.215.149] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:54:36 i'm sure companies would stop polluting if only the governments got out of their way 22:54:37 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.161.39] has joined #lisp 22:54:43 politics; sheesh 22:54:45 :} 22:54:55 redblue [i=star@ppp183.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:55:00 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:55:25 sink all the ships and there would drastically less pollution 22:55:30 ok no more ot 22:59:49 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-46-116.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 23:01:46 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:04:17 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 23:04:22 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:04:40 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:04:57 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:05:51 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:06:35 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:06:35 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:06:47 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:08:18 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:10:30 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:10:30 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:10:51 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:13:48 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:14:33 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:15:34 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:15:37 -!- eihrul [n=eihrul@ip72-193-224-224.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:16:27 This is #lisp, right 23:16:30 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.161.39] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:17:46 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.162.32] has joined #lisp 23:19:06 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:37 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001ee5019f0c-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:22:07 Hey all, I'm having a hard time building up a big lisp through a loop 23:22:40 I'll try to put all of the source on a pastie though 23:25:21 minion: paste 23:25:22 paste: lisppaste: lisppaste is an IRC bot that runs under the nickname "lisppaste" and can be used (only for the #lisp IRC channel!) at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp - or http://paste.lisp.org/ for other destinations 23:25:52 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:26:00 seangrove pasted "rows of lists of letters" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88411 23:26:07 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:26:41 random-board is where it breaks down, obviously 23:27:15 Perhaps I should do it recursively...that might be the most intuitive 23:27:36 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-30-221.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:27:46 lnostdal: companies won't stop polluting until they are forced to 23:27:49 <_3b> do you expect random-letters to have any side effects? 23:28:37 _3b: As in modifying any variables? 23:29:00 <_3b> right, or printing or whatever... any way of telling that you called it 23:29:12 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:29:16 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 23:29:22 No, I'd just like it to return a list of characters 23:29:33 Doesn't need to output them. 23:29:45 <_3b> ok, it probably does that (didn't read it closely) 23:29:55 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:29:55 <_3b> what doe you expect the LOOP to do with the list it returns? 23:29:57 seangrove: Do you have a definition of random-element? Because I lack that. 23:30:24 eihrul [n=eihrul@ip72-193-224-224.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:33 redline6561: Sorry, I'll annotate it 23:30:34 seangrove: the DO clause in loop does not do anything with the values that the form(s) following it return 23:30:47 redline6561 annotated #88411 "Possible Random-letter def" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88411#1 23:30:49 _3b: I'd like it to simply return a list of list of characters 23:31:13 <_3b> in that case you might find COLLECT more useful than DO in the LOOP 23:31:47 seangrove annotated #88411 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88411#2 23:31:57 <_3b> also, i'd put the DO or COLLECT on the beginning of the line with the form it is controlling, instead of at the end of the line with the FOR 23:32:36 redline6561: Pasted that 23:32:58 _3b: I'll check out collect then 23:33:00 <_3b> clhs 6.1.3.1 23:33:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_aca.htm 23:33:16 <_3b> actually, i guess 6.1.3 would be better 23:34:08 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:36:19 _3b: It looks like collect is used to get values from the variable that's used for iteration? 23:36:32 I'd like to collect all of the outputs of (randome-letters width) 23:36:40 benny [n=benny@i577A0778.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:36:40 <_3b> collect is use to build a list and optionally return it from the loop 23:36:41 Well, spelling mistakes aside, of course 23:36:53 <_3b> collect collects whatever is returned by the form in the collect clause 23:37:29 <_3b> (loop repeat 10 collect 'foo), (loop for i below 10 collect i) (loop repeat 10 collect (random 10)) for various examples 23:38:01 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-147-40-39.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 23:38:11 redline6561 annotated #88411 "crummy rewrite" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88411#3 23:38:15 ah, pretty cool 23:38:44 <_3b> you can also mix collect and append, or put multiple collect clauses adding things to the same list 23:38:52 seangrove: my code probably may not be terribly lispy. i'm almost as green as you. additionally, there may be a way to do it recursively but there's what i would do. 23:39:13 ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 23:39:17 <_3b> (loop for i below 10 collect 'foo append (make-list i i) collect (random 10.0)) 23:39:38 Actually, collect did the trick 23:39:51 <_3b> oops, make-list is &key not &optional, add a :initial-element in there 23:40:09 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 23:40:19 loop is crazy... 23:40:24 Good stuff though - thanks! 23:40:26 loop is good... 23:40:56 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-55.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 23:41:09 <_3b> just put the DO or COLLECT at the beginning of the line... easier to read :p 23:41:33 <_3b> (or more generally, start each clause on a new line) 23:42:32 *Xach* is reminded of the algorithm for selecting a random element from a linked list without knowing its overall length 23:43:21 Xach: would the would you iterate over the list a random number of times, looping if the list was too short? 23:43:31 no way. 23:44:04 Guess I was wrong then :D 23:44:39 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229113198.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 23:44:42 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-85-135-191.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 23:44:50 Xach: what algorithm is that ? 23:45:06 *_3b* would guess iterate over the list, remembering 1 element, and at each iteration either keeping old element or next one from list with probability depending on current length of list seen so far 23:45:54 3b wins! 23:46:30 Heh, that is a pretty good idea. 23:46:57 Doesn't that discriminate against long lists though? 23:47:07 Or at least bias you to pick earlier in the chain? 23:47:38 seangrove: no. 23:47:50 it's the power of math 23:48:02 <_3b> figuring out the correct probability given the length is the part i don't know :p 23:48:31 <_3b> 1/length would be my first guess though 23:48:49 But the length is unknown, right? 23:48:50 <_3b> 100% for first element, 50% for 2nd, etc 23:48:56 <_3b> the length you have seen so far 23:48:58 seangrove: you know how far you've gone. 23:49:14 <_3b> or equivalently, the index of current element 23:49:28 *Xach* phrased badly: selecting a random element without knowing the overall length up front 23:51:29 rares1 [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-174-63.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 23:51:29 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:51:55 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp183.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 23:51:58 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h52n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 23:52:05 ASau [n=user@ppp91-76-58-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:52:27 hmm 23:52:30 -!- rares1 [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-174-63.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has left #lisp 23:52:43 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-coloetbmpvjbsfxn] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:53:29 -!- aja_ [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:53:30 rares1 [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-174-63.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 23:53:40 -!- rares1 [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-174-63.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has left #lisp 23:53:58 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:26 rares1 [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-174-63.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 23:55:14 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:57:08 -!- rares1 is now known as rares 23:57:58 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp