00:04:49 -!- udzinari [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:06:36 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-67-162.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:13:18 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-60.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 00:15:13 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 00:17:16 -!- _icecube_ [n=icecube@p549C700E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:19:37 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 00:19:49 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:21:16 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-64-180.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 00:21:38 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:14 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-60.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 00:30:56 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h52n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:32:45 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 00:34:18 pkhuong: your suggestion of having fancier channel types was quite dangerous. 00:35:27 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-64-180.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:35:34 *sykopomp* feels like wasting time writing all sorts of ridiculous data structures. 00:39:00 -!- jkantz_wfh [n=jkantz@c-66-31-31-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:39:53 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-132-92-40.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:40:05 Monk1 [n=a@cpe-74-74-140-173.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:40:13 is there a function for converting a string to a number? 00:40:48 Guthur: READ 00:40:49 -!- emmy is now known as emma 00:41:01 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 00:41:02 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 00:43:18 pkhuong so i would have to convert my string to a stream? 00:43:36 Guthur: no, you can READ-FROM-STRING. 00:43:42 ah 00:43:48 missed that, thanks 00:43:54 sykopomp: you should even be able to come up with a nice interface with only a couple gf to override for a basic implementation of another queue. 00:44:08 pkhuong: and I did :) 00:44:42 only 4 methods needed in order to take unbuffered channels and write buffered ones on top 00:45:23 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-91-250.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:46:05 Guthur: you can also use PARSE-INTEGER to, well, the name says it all 00:46:16 Guthur: and there is a third-party library called parse-number that might be useful 00:46:59 sykopomp: so, if I want to use my own queue type, do I only have to write queue operations (push/pop/emptyp)? And what if I want to write my own mostly lock-free data structure? 00:47:15 thanks stassats & arbscht 00:48:13 pkhuong: If you want to write your own lock-free data structure, you probably want to override the main method for send/recv, and that should let you use the same interface with your new lock-free channels. 00:48:41 pkhuong: the 4 methods are meant so that you can write your own channel types while taking advantage of the already-written coordinated locking thing. 00:49:11 sykopomp: sounds right. 00:49:28 I guess I should make channel an abstract data structure to let you subclas -something- 00:50:07 -!- ska` [n=user@ppp-58-8-125-231.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:50:08 pkhuong: I sort of wonder how you'd implement something like this without locks -- thrashing threads until opposite operations happen seems like such a bad idea. 00:50:25 but it's probably not that bad if you actually expect to have very fast I/O through the channels. 00:50:34 I'm sure CAS would be good enough in a lot of cases. 00:50:51 or even an efficient implementation of a full transaction system. 00:51:41 *mostly*. It's the common/fast-pathable case you're worried about. 00:52:16 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:57:24 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-132-92-40.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 01:00:54 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:01:59 envi_office2 [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 01:04:41 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-64-180.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 01:07:07 pkhuong: is there a semi-portable CAS? (is that possible?...) 01:07:35 mjonsson [n=mjonsson@cpe-74-68-112-229.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:12:05 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:14:27 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:15:05 sykopomp: one could try and implement a set of atomic primitives across implementations. That's feasible. GCC offers that for instance. The abstraction is leaky, however: which operations are efficient depends on the platform. You're also somewhat stuck with a common denominator problem (but CAS can usually be built on top of whatever is available). 01:15:13 blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 01:15:56 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:16:30 -!- blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 01:20:00 impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313886.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:22:38 dbx [n=dbx@cm-84.208.73.62.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 01:24:58 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2F279.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:29:01 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-95-37.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 01:31:31 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:37:21 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.2.204] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:44:53 -!- dbx [n=dbx@cm-84.208.73.62.getinternet.no] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:48:04 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:48:14 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 01:48:33 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:48:38 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 01:48:58 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@140a.hackerdojo.com] has joined #lisp 01:53:48 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 01:57:25 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:59:06 h3r3tic: what're you doing here? O.o 02:00:02 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:01:37 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:01:42 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:02 rme: does CCL have a compare-and-swap operation? 02:02:19 there's some sort of store-conditional 02:02:55 load-linked / store-conditional? 02:03:11 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:40 on which is build atomic-incf, etc. 02:03:57 thanks, I'll look into it in a bit. 02:04:58 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@140a.hackerdojo.com] has quit [] 02:07:58 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@140a.hackerdojo.com] has joined #lisp 02:08:28 tvl [n=tudor@TSA.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 02:08:35 Adlai: trivial-cas, here we come! 02:09:44 ppc ports use LL/SC, but x86 uses cmpxchg of course 02:09:53 hi. i'm getting a c-string decoding error (:external-format :UTF-8) when trying to asdf-install lispbuilder-sdl-image. a google search informed me that the problem might be related to my locale, but i couldn't find a specific fix. any idea on what to change? 02:11:27 LANG=ru_RU.UTF-8 or whatever your locale name is 02:13:00 weird. apprently it's already set correctly 02:13:19 you're using sbcl? 02:13:24 right 02:14:03 Perhaps the issue is that lispbuilder-sdl-image isn't utf-8 encoded? 02:15:55 h3r3tic: and for that matter, why are you here and nowhere else? 02:16:22 impulse32_ [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313886.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:16:40 nyef: that would be weird, since lispbuilder-sdl is 02:16:55 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:18:33 fanannan [n=fanannan@KD113159023136.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:19:42 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:27:27 -!- pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:27:30 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:16 er. i'm getting utf-8 errors on other things, so it's probably a problem on my end 02:28:40 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@90.149.117.111] has quit [] 02:28:51 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@90.149.117.111] has joined #lisp 02:48:42 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 02:50:31 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:52:02 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:03 http://paste.lisp.org/display/88138 the lisppaste bot seems to be having problems. 02:57:16 pkhuong: could I bother you for some nuggets of wisdom? 03:02:50 -!- fanannan [n=fanannan@KD113159023136.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:08:16 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:08:28 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 03:08:47 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:08:51 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 03:09:28 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:09:28 h3 [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 03:12:08 shrewd1 [n=arn@student-4.wireless.latrobe.edu.au] has joined #lisp 03:12:11 hey guys, i'm trying to (list ) some things together, could i get a pointer? 03:12:45 when i list a 1 with a (3) i obviously get (1 (3)) whats the best way for me do get (1 3) ? 03:12:53 shrewd1: * here you go. Use it carefully. 03:13:09 *(3) => 3 ? 03:13:19 shrewd1: (cons 1 (list 3)) try that. 03:13:44 shrewd1: you know how conses work, right? :) 03:13:44 shrewd1: (list* 1 '(3)) 03:13:51 shrewd1: I suggest you spend some time here: http://l1sp.org/pcl/ 03:14:01 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:14:36 thanks, 03:15:07 very new, just piecing this all together, i know a decent amount so far but there's just some gaps in what i know 03:15:27 list* worked perfectly 03:15:28 thanks 03:15:51 (i'm doing lisp for a artificial intelligence course) 03:16:21 shrewd1: I'm serious about the book. 03:16:27 It's a great book. 03:17:50 no offense, but lisp makes my brain hurt 03:18:11 my preference is to do enough to solve the towers of hanoi with a searching algorithm 03:18:30 and perhaps, come back to it at my own liesure, 03:18:34 some time in the future 03:18:39 well, if it causes you physical pain, you can probably get your professor to excuse you from learning it for your course. 03:19:14 tim [n=tim@71-208-140-2.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:31 Beyond that, be thankful that it's not RPG. Now -that's- a language for the brain-hurting. 03:21:00 lol, i will be thankful 03:21:13 it's not terrible, it just hurts, and no i can't get excused 03:23:54 i'm writing the "( ) " a bit like { in C or java, lol, apparently that's not how lispers like it 03:23:59 I'd say "you'll get used to it", but that's entirely the -wrong- sentiment... 03:25:05 Yeah, we mostly ignore parens that are in certain places. It's a selective blindness, but it works out well. 03:25:37 A lot of program-flow stuff is handled by watching the indent level, even though that's not what the compiler looks at. 03:26:07 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:26:07 -!- envi_office2 [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:26:11 And our editors (usually emacsen of some stripe) do automatic paren balancing, indentation, gross code motion if we need it, and so on. 03:26:24 envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 03:26:26 i don't know emacs, and i don't have time to learn it as i go 03:26:29 unfortunately 03:26:35 so i'm doing it in vim 03:26:48 highlights but doesn't force any kind of indent style or anything 03:27:12 lispers rave about emacs, i might learn it so i can look cool doing development in console lol 03:27:12 I hear that vim is... usable. There are a few die-hard vim users around here. 03:27:40 i tried eclipse but it didn't work straight away so i gave up 03:27:41 lol 03:27:49 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.139.21] has joined #lisp 03:28:20 The other reason we like emacs is that we get very good integration between our editor and our Lisp thanks to SLIME. 03:28:59 Though that's less of an issue given whatever the plugin was for that-other-eclipse and ISTR there being something for vim. 03:29:30 i always though emacs was this huge bloated editor that could do everything.... 03:29:39 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.16.238] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:29:41 i guess i listen too much to vim people 03:29:56 though it does have games in there for some reason :S 03:30:06 Hrm... Actually, how large is emacs compared to eclipse? 03:30:30 i don't understand how that's a valid argument with terabyte sized hard disks and gigs of ram 03:30:39 40mb is not very much on that scale 03:30:40 And "huge bloated editor"? Are you running slackware or something? 03:31:39 shrewd1: emacs is bloated by 1960s hardware standards. 03:32:01 vim is as large 03:32:05 lol it's clearly not bloated 03:32:18 sorry for offending i thought i implied my change of opinion 03:32:28 i've not used it until recently 03:32:45 maybe vim people mean feature/interface bloat rather than memory footprint 03:33:02 though i don't want to argue, and have no opinion 03:33:03 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:33:59 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.235] has joined #lisp 03:38:24 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:40:11 cond ( (and (safe-list? A) (safe-list? B)(safe-list? C) ) (eval 'n) 03:40:11 (T (eval '())) 03:40:21 can anyone spot what i did wrong? 03:40:25 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:40:38 should probably have pastebinned 03:40:40 hold on 03:42:01 http://paste.lisp.org/display/88139 03:43:10 my eyes bleed 03:43:16 i spot EVAL! 03:43:18 yeah i'm terribly sorry about that 03:43:27 eval no good? 03:43:42 no good, yeah 03:43:43 There is rarely any good use for eval. 03:43:54 so instead i should.... ? 03:44:00 shrewd1: what is that? Is that some sort of moon language? 03:44:22 shrewd1 - that depends on what you're actually doing. Anyway, you probably want a ) after (eval 'n) 03:44:45 i should re check syntax for cond 03:44:53 isn't it 03:44:59 shrewd1: perhaps not forgetting the ( might be good, too :) 03:45:08 learning the basic syntax for lisp might be a good idea, I think. 03:46:00 right i see my mistake now 03:46:06 vim has balanced paren-insertion controls, doesn't it? 03:46:08 yeah basic syntax... i think i'm getting there 03:46:22 not so far 03:46:23 shrewd1: http://paste.lisp.org/display/88139#1 03:46:49 wow thanks, i will use that as a guide for indenting etc 03:47:00 much better than my made up conventions 03:47:14 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.130.237] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:47:41 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.221.15] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 03:47:43 shrewd1: if you want a guide, read some source code 03:47:54 sounds good 03:48:14 nyef: can you poke minion? 03:48:35 shrewd1: cl-ppcre, cffi have nice sources 03:48:37 http://norvig.com/luv-slides.ps for style 03:49:12 Ugh. One of these days I'd like to do something about the bots not being able to return from a disconnect. 03:49:19 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 03:50:06 lisppaste seems to be dead :( 03:50:30 nope, it's resting 03:50:41 Yeah, about to bounce it now. 03:50:43 lispaste is up if you keep at it 03:50:50 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:50:50 its just, slow.... 03:50:58 shrewd1: I'm talking about the bot. 03:51:01 No, the bots themselves are gone. 03:51:03 ohhh 03:51:16 The site was still up, the IRC part was at least partially screwed. 03:51:28 Though specbot was still up, as was lisppaste8, so not entirely screwed. 03:51:37 It's loading now. 03:51:48 what's lisppaste8? 03:51:48 (And hopefully still works, I've not done this in months.) 03:52:12 stassats: Load-balancing for the number of channels that paste.lisp.org serves. 03:52:26 lisppaste8 was in #tech.coop. 03:53:49 Hrm... I think I'd like to make the startup process a little more verbose, too. 03:54:21 'cause right now it's just sitting there, and for all I know it could be loading the paste database, or it could be doing something else time-consuming. 03:54:25 Or it could have wedged. 03:56:02 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-192-193.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:05 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:18 Ah, some sort of lookup table. 03:58:22 ... maybe. 03:59:40 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:47 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:11 minion: You know, it occurs to me that if your startup procedure gets any nastier you're likely to ping out before you've finished loading. 04:01:11 what's up? 04:01:40 Okay, looks like things are running again. 04:01:47 minion: more posix 04:01:48 posix me harder 04:01:53 ppc eieio 04:01:53 Enforce In-Order Execution of I/O: http://www.nersc.gov/vendor_docs/ibm/asm/eieio.htm#idx390 04:01:59 Good enough. 04:02:15 *nyef* detaches from lisppaste's console. 04:02:38 is it like Matrix? 04:03:39 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 105 (No buffer space available)] 04:03:47 Umm... It's more like ssh -> screen. 04:04:06 but, but, it has lots of bots! 04:04:39 So does Zelda II, but that's entirely beside the point. 04:08:23 sorry to bother, but i have another quick question, i have a function that works with a list (L) , for some reason i'm having trouble returning L i know this is a newbie question but how do i return the list, either i'm doing that wrong or i have to examine my code logic 04:08:38 '(L) 04:08:51 How about just L instead of '(L) ? 04:09:00 (Assuming that L is a variable.) 04:09:03 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176152692.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 04:09:10 thats what i thought let me try that again 04:11:15 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.90.142] has joined #lisp 04:11:29 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-240-054.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:12:39 -!- shrewd1 [n=arn@student-4.wireless.latrobe.edu.au] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:14:17 shrewd1 [n=arn@student-4.wireless.latrobe.edu.au] has joined #lisp 04:15:50 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 04:19:33 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:19:34 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 04:22:07 shrewd1: ave you been pointed to Practical Common Lisp yet? asking these basic questions on the channel is bound to annoy somebody sooner or later. 04:22:50 drewc: yes, about an hour ago. " shrewd1: I suggest you spend some time here: http://l1sp.org/pcl/" 04:23:19 shrewd1: you sound like you need Gentle Intro, actually. Read that first. 04:23:30 minion: PLEASE tell shrewd1 about gentle-intro 04:23:31 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``gentle-intro''. 04:23:33 sykopomp: good point 04:23:33 hm 04:23:35 minion: PLEASE tell shrewd1 about gentle 04:23:36 shrewd1: direct your attention towards gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 04:24:47 To be fair, thus far they've all been the "what am I missing here" sort of questions, which is a refreshing change from the usual. 04:26:17 true, and it is saturday night, so it's not like the noise is a real problem.... it's quiet and we're probably looking for questions to answer :) 04:26:34 still, lisp helps those who help themselves, 04:26:36 . 04:27:04 It's actually sunday morning here. 04:27:13 Much to my dismay twenty minutes ago. 04:29:43 Avada [n=Lestat@97.101.184.197] has joined #lisp 04:29:57 -!- Avada [n=Lestat@97.101.184.197] has left #lisp 04:30:49 nyef: what are the usual? 04:31:43 tvl: The trolls and the ones that just want us to do their homework for them. 04:31:43 redb1ue [i=star@ppp012.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:32:14 oh, sucks 04:32:23 Having someone who is, to all appearances, merely struggling with idiom is a refreshing change. 04:32:39 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-13-229.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 04:32:43 -!- impulse32_ [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313886.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 04:39:06 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313886.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:40:39 pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 04:41:42 (compile nil '(lambda () (declare (optimize speed)) (with-simple-restart (blah "blah") (error "error")))) 04:42:02 ..quite noisy, and i can't "inject" the needed type decls. 04:42:16 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 04:42:20 i think .. heh 04:43:02 will the stream always be a stream? .. looking at the code in defboot.lisp atm. 04:43:40 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp098.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:44:10 ..because if it is, adding a decl. removes a lot of noise 04:46:58 -!- shrewd1 [n=arn@student-4.wireless.latrobe.edu.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:48:32 angel_ [n=angel@123.112.232.176] has joined #lisp 04:48:47 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-67-203.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:51:42 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-67-162.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:53:50 -!- tim [n=tim@71-208-140-2.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:55:01 shrewd1 [n=arn@student-4.wireless.latrobe.edu.au] has joined #lisp 04:55:18 tim [n=tim@71-208-140-2.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:49 -!- tim [n=tim@71-208-140-2.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:58:00 -!- shrewd1 [n=arn@student-4.wireless.latrobe.edu.au] has quit [Client Quit] 05:01:06 Cools [n=Cools@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:02:39 -!- angel_ [n=angel@123.112.232.176] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:07:45 impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313886.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 05:08:21 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-177-207.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:10:15 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.90.142] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:10:54 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@140a.hackerdojo.com] has quit [] 05:12:34 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@140a.hackerdojo.com] has joined #lisp 05:14:23 Good morning! 05:14:39 nyef: It is way past midnight! 05:15:55 -!- pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:16:24 pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 05:16:31 -!- Cools [n=Cools@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 05:18:19 That it is. It's almost 1:20. 05:20:58 ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 05:27:24 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.90.142] has joined #lisp 05:29:17 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@140a.hackerdojo.com] has quit [] 05:29:48 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.90.142] has quit [Client Quit] 05:32:33 -!- pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:32:52 pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 05:37:46 shrewd1 [n=arn@student-4.wireless.latrobe.edu.au] has joined #lisp 05:40:55 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.90.142] has joined #lisp 05:45:08 -!- shrewd1 [n=arn@student-4.wireless.latrobe.edu.au] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:52:26 seangrove [n=user@216.70.164.144] has joined #lisp 05:52:55 emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-11-230.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:55:33 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:50 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.177.41] has left #lisp 06:01:19 -!- s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-168-237-198.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:03:24 <_3b> what is the cleanest way to write a library of functions in parenscript, outside of any particular web page? 06:04:52 <_3b> just (defparameter *foo* (ps (defun ...) ...)) and let people put *foo* in the page as needed? or maybe define a ps macro to define the functions? 06:06:07 <_3b> or just convert it to js, and run it through js optimizers etc and package it for use as a static file like most JS libs? 06:06:08 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313886.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 06:08:14 I guess that depends what you mean by 'clean' 06:08:35 <_3b> well, 'most useful 06:08:40 <_3b> as much as 'clean' 06:09:55 splittist [n=dmurray@85.4.220.156] has joined #lisp 06:09:59 morning 06:11:53 hello splittist 06:11:54 s0ber [i=pie@220-136-230-162.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:05 [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.125] has joined #lisp 06:17:04 <_3b> guess i'll just go with a function that returns the js code for now i guess 06:23:10 -!- Monk1 [n=a@cpe-74-74-140-173.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [] 06:23:28 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:26:22 shrewd1 [n=arn@220-253-49-202.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:27:56 hello 06:29:49 -!- s0ber [i=pie@220-136-230-162.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 06:30:10 hey guys, QQ: how do i check is a list has an item in it? ie, check if (1 2 3) has a 3 ? 06:30:16 if* 06:30:27 <_3b> clhs member 06:30:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_member.htm 06:30:29 clhs member 06:30:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_member.htm 06:33:01 <_3b> anyone have an idl parser handy? (preferably one that isn't too entangled with a code generator) 06:36:45 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.90.142] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:38:16 I'm trying to come up with an ok heuristic for working out how many moves are left in the tower of hanoi problem, 06:38:54 that ought to be possible to compute exactly. 06:39:02 it can really be whatever, good or bad, i don't think it will be marked too harshly, i've got one but it's very clunky 06:39:09 yeah it should 06:39:20 hmmm 06:41:46 s0ber [i=pie@114-45-233-230.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:14 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-206-121-62.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:43:54 Oh, so you are using Lisp because you have to for one of your courses? 06:46:24 yeah i mentioned earlier today, you may not have been online 06:46:50 or possibly not reading every single message going through this high-traffic channel. 06:47:16 yeah or idle at the time 06:47:25 sorry i didn't cover all posibilities 06:48:35 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.76.170] has joined #lisp 06:49:43 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:50:24 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:50:51 rainer posted a link in /lisp/ that's just a treasure 06:51:00 archive of ACM Lisp Pointers 06:51:27 http://210.102.99.71:42435/toc.cfm?id=J509&idx=J509&type=periodical&coll=ACM&dl=ACM&part=newsletter&WantType=Newsletters&title=ACM%20SIGPLAN%20Lisp%20Pointers&CFID=9006420&CFTOKEN=51291955 06:52:30 -!- pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:54:15 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 06:54:22 -!- mjonsson [n=mjonsson@cpe-74-68-112-229.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:00:15 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 07:00:59 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.139.21] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:03:43 s0ber_ [i=pie@114-45-234-206.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:25 lpolzer: I see you're following ChanL 07:08:13 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@222-154-177-207.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:08:16 Adlai, yes it might come in handy some day 07:08:39 I've also been looking at eos just now 07:08:49 Oh, don't pay Eos much attention yet. 07:08:50 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:08:52 is it 5am decoupled from arnesi, or some other thing? 07:08:58 lpolzer: basically 07:08:59 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 07:09:00 <_8david> lpolzer: I've asked this before, but in case you didn't see it: 07:09:01 Right now it's basically a dependancy-free arnesi 07:09:06 <_8david> Do you have a darcs repository for clbuild I can just pull from? 07:09:09 Adlai: 5am* 07:09:20 sykopomp: heh yes. 07:09:25 _8david, sorry I missed that 07:09:38 lpolzer: I want to lighten it a bit more and fiddle with some syntax, though. 07:09:45 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"] 07:10:01 _8david, no I don't have a clbuild fork, but I can shoot you my wnpp-projects if you like 07:10:02 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.83] has joined #lisp 07:10:19 <_8david> that doesn't help me that much. 07:10:24 Adlai, I'm looking forward to see what you're going to do with it 07:10:28 I should really continue working on Eos now that ChanL is a bit more stable 07:10:32 thanks :) 07:10:42 <_8david> My ideal situation is when people just "darcs record" their stuff and put up that repo on some webserver. 07:10:55 _8david, ah you want to pull into upstream 07:11:07 lpolzer: oh right, and paktahn looks interesting -- it seems a bit troublesome to have to boot up an entire 50+mb CL image just to do a little bit of package management. 07:11:23 <_8david> It means that your name sits on the commit as the author, and it saves me enourmous work when applying them. 07:11:30 doesn't clisp have some fairly acceptable unix-frobbing stuff? 07:11:43 _8david, definitely. I'm going to put up a fork later 07:11:44 <_8david> well, perhaps not enormous, but significant enough :-) 07:11:55 <_8david> lpolzer: thank you, that would be fabulous. 07:12:21 sykopomp, it doesn't cause me any grief, paktahn's startup time is negligible and the speed is amazing compared to yaourt 07:13:18 lpolzer: how SBCL-specific is the code? 07:13:38 lpolzer: I'm more concerned about the arch community throwing a tantrum over the image size, although I'm honestly surprised start time is negligible -- I should get set up with it and see what's up. 07:13:49 Adlai: it has lots of #+- sbcl here and there 07:14:03 but it uses cffi, and doesn't seem to be terrible sbcl-specific. 07:14:04 sykopomp, with exepak it's about 11M 07:14:05 -!- shrewd1 [n=arn@220-253-49-202.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:14:13 shrewd1 [n=arn@220-253-49-202.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:14:15 lpolzer: oh nice. 07:14:42 Adlai, it should be easy to port 07:14:46 *Adlai* takes a look 07:15:39 the sbcl-specific parts (most are posix-related) are wrapped in a compatibility interface 07:16:39 besides adding them you only need to handle deployment and signal handling 07:18:00 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:20:00 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-177-207.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [No buffer space available] 07:20:25 -!- s0ber [i=pie@114-45-233-230.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:23:58 c|mell [n=cmell@118.43.201.120] has joined #lisp 07:24:40 lpolzer: ooh, paktahn looks neat 07:24:47 didn't know yaourt was abandoned 07:24:49 is paktahn stable? 07:26:05 Ralith, I'm using it daily 07:26:24 nice 07:26:31 so I usually encounter any bugs before the release gets out 07:26:54 if you can get it popularized amongst arch users that'd be a pretty awesome vector for CL in the real world 07:27:03 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:27:12 djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 07:27:14 maybe try to get it packaged in community 07:27:18 Ralith, yes that's one of the goals 07:27:29 I don't think it's possible for it to enter community 07:27:29 at least stick it on the AUR guide 07:27:36 why? 07:27:55 there's a rule that no package providing install from AUR may enter community (or extra, for that matter) 07:27:59 oh 07:28:01 that's odd. 07:28:03 this would need to be changed first 07:28:21 lpolzer: so basically, all those CL libs would need to make it into community first? :) 07:28:21 well, anyway, a s/yaourt/paktahn/ on the wiki would be plenty good enough. 07:28:33 -!- shrewd1 [n=arn@220-253-49-202.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:28:45 sykopomp, not at all 07:28:48 milanj [n=milan@77.46.210.212] has joined #lisp 07:28:54 sykopomp, there's no runtime dep on any cl lib 07:28:55 sykopomp: CL libs don't need to be dependencies if paktahn is in the official repos 07:29:00 it'd be distributed as source 07:29:04 * binary 07:29:06 Ralith, are you volunteering? :) 07:29:07 s/source/binary 07:29:09 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:29:11 *Adlai* is doing well today... 07:29:24 oh, only runtime deps. 07:29:28 jauaor [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 07:29:37 lpolzer: nah :P 07:29:42 lpolzer: I'm toying with the idea of trying to get it to work with CCL 07:29:54 got docs anywhere on setting it up? 07:29:59 Adlai, feel free to bug me for help with the port 07:30:15 Ralith: clone the repo and read PKGBUILD and HACKING 07:30:27 Ralith, the instructions for the binary are in the announcement on my blog 07:30:41 your blog's where? 07:31:00 go here: http://blog.viridian-project.de/2009/09/19/announcement-paktahn-a-successor-to-yaourt/ 07:31:19 okie. 07:31:23 if you're running i686 and want to give 0.8.1 (the current rc) a try: http://blog.viridian-project.de/2009/09/28/paktahn-0-8-1-release-candidate/ 07:31:39 what happened to yaourt, anyway? 07:31:43 maintainer dissapear? 07:31:50 I don't know 07:31:56 some people say it's still maintained 07:32:04 but the facts tell a different story 07:32:41 you're running a pacman repo? sweet :D 07:32:47 the last update has been in february, and major incompatibilities have started to come up 07:32:52 will go with the rc binary though 07:33:23 lpolzer: paktahn looks really neat, reason in itself to try out arch :) 07:34:03 guaqua, thanks, do try arch! 07:34:09 this is the first time i hear about paktahn 07:34:12 _8david, http://viridian-project.de/~sky/clbuild.public/ 07:34:30 _8david, I gather you will rebuild the dependencies file yourself? 07:34:30 lpolzer: you're the clbuild maintainer? 07:34:37 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:34:42 Ralith, no just a contributor 07:34:44 ah. 07:34:50 'cuz it would be kinda weird if you were 07:34:58 why? 07:35:03 a CL package manager in shell script and a Linux package managert in CL. 07:35:27 it's the reverse of the intuitive choices. 07:35:43 :D 07:36:12 hm. 07:36:19 ralith@arbor:~% pak --help 07:36:19 Usage: sbcl [runtime-options] [toplevel-options] [user-options] 07:36:24 that needs to go away. 07:36:42 Ralith: Make it so! 07:36:50 Ralith: "patches welcome"? 07:37:34 the spec doesn't specify anything for launch argument handling, does it? 07:37:45 no 07:37:47 nothing wrt unix 07:37:50 Ralith: the spec doesn't specify anything for image dumping either. 07:38:04 although I *think* there's a portable library for grabbing command-line args. 07:38:20 minion: trivial-argv 07:38:20 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``trivial-argv''. 07:38:27 minion: arg 07:38:27 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``arg''. 07:38:29 minion: argv 07:38:30 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``argv''. 07:38:34 *Adlai* hits cliki himself 07:38:45 I guess nobody needs a lib for that... 07:38:49 http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/os.html <-- here's this, at least. 07:38:53 one function wrapper does the job 07:39:08 I hope it's *possible* to override the standard command line options for most impls 07:39:11 I guess people don't often try to mix CL and UNIX 07:39:11 anyway, the problem is not getting at the argv but to keep sbcl from grabbing --help 07:39:16 yeah 07:39:35 I've postponed this for a later version but I agree that it needs to be fixed soon. 07:39:42 there is a library 07:39:49 letme see if i can find it ;p 07:40:04 lpolzer: I could easily see sbcl/etc not supporting that, though, as important as it is :/ 07:40:19 you'd need an ugly wrapper 07:40:37 lpolzer, for portable (not entirely working) arg grabbing and binary making see cl-launch by Fare 07:40:39 it's not that many lines of sh, but still :/ 07:40:56 lpolzer: but apparently you're already depending on a custom sbcl? 07:41:31 Ralith, yes but the fix has entered upstream this weekend and will be part of .32 (which is still a few weeks away it seems) 07:42:01 cool 07:42:02 Ralith, there'll be some way to handle the --help thing though in any case 07:42:05 uhh. 07:42:09 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:42:09 this is supposed to be really fast, right? 07:42:25 Ralith, after the cache has been built, yes. 07:42:38 note that AUR speed does depend on your bandwidth ;) 07:42:40 it's only marginally faster than yaourt on 'pak nethack' versus 'yaourt nethack' 07:42:47 oh. 07:42:59 is that why it blocks for a moment after the standard repositories? 07:43:15 yes 07:43:31 okay then, nevermind, I think. 07:43:32 the AUR query happens in one big request 07:43:36 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:43:49 hm 07:43:50 idea: 07:43:59 well, that explains a lot. I always wondered about that. 07:44:17 c|mell, let's see how cl-launch does it 07:44:22 start the AUR query in a separate thread before searching the standard repositories 07:44:30 c|mell, I suppose it just passes --end-runtime-options to sbcl 07:44:50 Ralith, that's a good idea 07:44:59 pak seems to take much longer than yaourt to go from standard repositories to AUR 07:45:03 Ralith: (recv *aur-query-channel*) once you're done with the local repos, of course ;) 07:45:06 and that might be how yaourt does it. 07:45:21 Ralith, I don't think so 07:45:39 oh, wait. 07:45:41 yaourt doesn't have any performance hacks 07:45:48 yeah, yaourt stalls for a minute before it does anything at all 07:45:52 that's probably when it does the query. 07:45:56 no 07:46:01 oh? 07:46:07 that's when the pacman library gets scanned 07:46:16 cuz it only takes maybe half a second to pull the aur entries 07:46:26 while pak takes several 07:46:36 several seconds to pull an aur query? 07:46:37 Ralith: it has to build a cache 07:46:47 lpolzer: yes. 07:46:53 what's your connection speed? 07:47:09 -!- pok_ [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 07:47:09 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 07:47:16 Adlai, I suppose Ralith is referring to the wait after the pacman dbs have been searched 07:47:16 isn't that irrelevant, considering that I'm comparing yaourt to pak on the same system? 07:47:32 anyway, it's very high; university broadband. 07:47:39 I routinely pull MB/s down 07:47:47 Ralith, that's likely but I need it anyway because it takes less than half a second for me here to search for nethack aur results 07:47:56 weird. 07:48:03 so I'm not sure where your measurement is coming from... 07:48:07 it takes two seconds minimum, sometimes longer here. 07:48:21 lpolzer, save-lisp-and-die :save-runtime-opitons t 07:48:34 took six seconds just now, for example. 07:48:50 c|mell, oh great 07:48:52 whereas yaourt starts printing aur results with almost no delay. 07:49:07 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 07:49:08 so *something* is being done differently. 07:49:20 Ralith, I think that's because yaourt gets the result incrementally 07:49:23 perhaps yaourt prints -- 07:49:24 yeah 07:49:27 that could do it. 07:50:04 anyway, I'll switch over and let you know if I hit any bugs. 07:50:17 try a query that will give you a large number of aur hits 07:51:54 wups, that one was too large. 07:52:09 *Ralith* watches the result be ratelimited by his terminal's ability to print :P 07:52:22 ooo, bug! 07:52:27 probably. 07:52:29 % pak foo 07:52:29 ==> System call error 2 (No such file or directory) 07:52:49 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.90.142] has joined #lisp 07:52:59 no, wait, it just didn't like my pacman.conf edit. 07:53:55 lpolzer: The CCL port has officially begun. 07:54:16 I have ported PAK::GETARGV to CCL! 07:54:42 Adlai, cheers! 07:54:51 yeah, paktahn is indisputably ultimately faster for large queries. 07:54:53 Ralith, I need a backtrace 07:55:14 lpolzer: I think it was my end; reverting and reapplying the pacman.conf edit fixed it. 07:55:29 probably typo'd something 07:55:37 Ralith, what exactly did you do? 07:55:48 looks like paktahn should catch something here that it does not 07:56:19 added the paktahn repo to the bottom of the conf 07:58:07 Ralith, can you reproduce this bug and hand me a backtrace? I'd like to see the stack for this error 07:58:30 uh, how do I get it to give a backtrace? 07:58:43 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-4-18.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:59:39 hm. 07:59:44 Ralith, create a file ~/.paktahn/config.lisp 07:59:46 I can't seem to mangle my conf such that the error recurs. 07:59:54 KingNato_ [n=patno@84-217-4-18.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:05 with these contents: (setf pak::*on-error* :backtrace) 08:00:17 sorry, can't get it to happen :/ 08:00:17 Ralith, well maybe you'll hit it again later... 08:00:28 doubtful, since it seems to be related to the conf 08:00:32 but I'll let you know if it does. 08:01:09 thanks 08:01:18 I've fixed --help now and you're credited ;) 08:04:11 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 08:05:14 -!- KingNato [n=patno@84-217-4-89.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:05:15 -!- KingNato_ is now known as KingNato 08:05:34 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:07:07 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:07:44 very cool to finally have a piece of lisp software that people can actually use instead of yet another lisp library :) 08:09:37 what piece of softare is that? 08:09:41 pem_ [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 08:10:43 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:12:05 c|mell, seen shuffletron? 08:12:19 beach, he's referrring to paktahn 08:12:49 minion: tell me about paktahn 08:12:49 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``paktahn''. 08:13:20 beach: lpolzer is working on a package manager for Archlinux 08:13:23 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 08:14:31 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-4-89.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:14:31 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 08:16:01 lpolzer: "port" going ok. I have to go out for a bit, but this seems very manageable. 08:16:42 Adlai, good to hear my abstractions are working 08:20:57 _icecube_ [n=icecube@p549C6941.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:10 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:23:21 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 08:24:48 hi! is it somehow possible to make hash-table with some initial data in it? 08:26:53 nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has joined #lisp 08:29:21 (defvar *myhash* (let ((myhash (make-hash-table))) (setf (gethash myhash 'foo) 'bar) myhash)) 08:29:28 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 08:31:30 <_8david> lpolzer: Thanks. How about that teepeedee2 thing? 08:33:09 _8david, tpd2 doesn't work with upstream parenscript right now so I'd rather put it on hold 08:33:46 lpolzer: thanks 08:33:48 <_8david> okay. I'll rebuild dependencies then. 08:34:17 <_3b> freiksenet: see alexandria:plist-hash-table or alexandria:alist-hash-table 08:34:53 freiksenet, I reversed the order of GETHASH args above, it needs to be (gethash 'foo myhash) 08:34:57 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 08:34:58 _3b: I will, thanks. 08:42:53 shmho [n=user@58.142.6.62] has joined #lisp 08:49:40 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:50:50 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:50:58 dbx [n=dbx@cm-84.208.73.62.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 08:52:50 -!- KingNato [n=patno@84-217-4-18.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [] 08:52:52 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.6.62] has left #lisp 08:57:27 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:01:05 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229133146.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:03:37 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 09:05:54 lispm [n=joswig@e177144233.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:06:24 jauaor_ [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 09:07:52 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 09:09:43 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:10:03 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 09:11:03 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 09:13:15 macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:13:16 -!- jauaor [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:13:17 -!- jauaor_ is now known as jauaor 09:17:55 chris2 [n=chris@p5B168B3F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:24:22 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:31:24 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:33:15 seangrov` [n=user@216.70.164.144] has joined #lisp 09:35:30 <_3b> hmm... "Unhandled memory fault at #x7FFFEFC83F38." wonder how i managed that with parenscript 09:36:15 <_3b> wonder if i've just been running on a corrupted image for a long time and not noticed yet 09:36:47 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 09:37:04 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:37:18 *_3b* suspects it is time to restart sbcl 09:39:12 <_3b> ah, infinite loop somewhere maybe 09:39:49 -!- seangrove [n=user@216.70.164.144] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:41:18 danlei [n=user@pD9E2D986.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:13 I currently use lists for as "mini data types", for things that are used in several places, have similar structure but are not used so much to deserver a class of their own. Is it possible to create things like "named tuples" from Python in Common Lisp? So I will still have general list, but will access it with names rather than with cxr's? 09:43:37 <_3b> clhs defstruct 09:43:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defstr.htm 09:44:09 freiksenet: Classes are preferable because of their superior semantics when you modify them. 09:44:09 freiksenet: you might also be interested in an alist. 09:44:50 -!- dbx [n=dbx@cm-84.208.73.62.getinternet.no] has left #lisp 09:44:59 freiksenet: What do you have against using a class? 09:45:01 lpolzer: you reveal your age 09:46:08 <_3b> specifically the (:type list) bit of defstruct, as the other said, real data structures still might be better though :) 09:46:55 lpolzer: so...? 09:47:03 sorry, meant emacs-dwim 09:47:32 lpolzer: so.. you're talking to yourself again... ;) 09:47:34 Is it worth making a class for a thing that is used in two functions? 09:47:35 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:47 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:47:55 emacs-dwim, yeah it happens ;) 09:48:10 freiksenet: What is the perceived cost of making a class? 09:48:18 freiksenet, maybe you want an alist? 09:48:36 I would need to export it to external packages, adding complexity. 09:48:52 lpolzer: yeah, I guess that's the best way. 09:50:02 lispm: good morning lispm 09:50:23 hey lispm :) 09:50:34 kingless [n=user@adsl-150-138-128.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:48 good morning 09:50:56 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 09:51:15 good morning to you and all the others here 09:51:21 and everybody else 09:52:30 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [] 09:54:09 hi, I have a simple question: is there a simple way to get the multiple values a function returns (with VALUES) as a list, instead of bindings the values to temp vars and then create the list ? 09:55:06 <_3b> clhs multiple-value-list 09:55:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_mult_1.htm 09:55:19 kind of obvious ;-) 09:55:31 oh thank you :) 09:56:40 <_3b> or there is always multiple-value-call 'list :) 09:58:07 I learn new things everyday, thank you lisp ! 09:59:59 galdor: For questions like that, you might want to use the permited index of the CLHS. 10:00:03 you can query your Lisp for that with APROPOS: (apropos "value" "CL") 10:00:30 -!- _8david [n=user@port-92-195-72-12.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:00:31 (apropos "value" "CL") looks for symbols with 'value' in its name in the CL package 10:00:43 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229133146.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:00:43 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.83] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:00:43 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:00:43 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-230-238.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:00:43 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A00BA.versanet.de] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:00:43 -!- ak701 [n=ak70@195.158.93.230] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:00:43 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:00:43 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:00:43 -!- michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:00:43 -!- jsnell_ [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:00:43 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:00:44 -!- pragma_ [n=pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:00:44 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:00:44 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:01:06 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229133146.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:01:06 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.83] has joined #lisp 10:01:06 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 10:01:06 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-230-238.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:06 benny [n=benny@i577A00BA.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:01:06 ak701 [n=ak70@195.158.93.230] has joined #lisp 10:01:06 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:01:06 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 10:01:06 michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has joined #lisp 10:01:06 jsnell_ [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has joined #lisp 10:01:06 jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 10:01:06 pragma_ [n=pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has joined #lisp 10:01:06 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:06 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 10:01:23 for example this: 10:01:25 (mapc (lambda (sym) (when (documentation sym 'function) (print sym) (print (documentation sym 'function)) (terpri))) (apropos-list "value" "CL")) 10:01:40 prints the documentation for those symbols 10:02:24 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:03:32 lispm: didn't know that, thank you 10:03:37 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-121-100.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:05:20 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-60-169.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:05:20 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:06:22 no_mind [n=orion@122.163.221.152] has joined #lisp 10:09:48 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-206-17-72.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:11:35 -!- s0ber_ [i=pie@114-45-234-206.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:11:46 shrewd [n=arn@220.253-236-179.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:13:32 qq: in lisp, what is the best way to search for a patter in a list; ie: look for x x in (x x nil nil nil) i need to count the pattern 10:15:03 <_3b> clhs search 10:15:04 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_search.htm 10:15:12 thanks 10:15:36 COUNT 10:15:43 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:15:43 clhs count 10:15:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_countc.htm 10:15:46 <_3b> not sure that does exactly what you want though, you probably will also want :test 'equalp 10:17:34 s0ber [i=pie@118-168-238-221.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:28 count is promising, thankyou 10:19:35 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-128-225.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:19:36 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:55 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 10:20:04 only problem is that i can't think of how to count the X's in a list ie (x x x) it works great for a string ie. "x x x" 10:20:18 can i convert a list to a string? 10:20:19 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:20:48 <_3b> why should being a list make it harder? 10:21:05 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@222-154-177-207.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:21:14 <_3b> or phrased differently, what did you try, and how did it fail? 10:21:37 (count #\a "aaa") <<< valid 10:22:03 (count #\a '(aaa)) <<< returns 0 10:22:27 <_3b> well, '(aaa) is a list with 1 element 10:23:09 <_3b> that element is a symbol, probably named "AAA" 10:23:39 <_3b> (count 'a '(a a a)) or (count #\a '(#\a #\a #\a)) might be closer to what you want? 10:23:39 how do i fix the second line? 10:23:52 ok.... 10:23:59 .oO(How is it broken?) 10:24:09 ahhh 10:24:11 works 10:24:30 thanks i'll meditate on that for a bit 10:24:52 <_3b> or maybe (reduce '+ '(aaa) :key (lambda (a) (count #\A (string a)))) if your requirements are really odd 10:25:20 i thought #\a meant number of a or something 10:25:37 <_3b> #\a is the cracter 'a' 10:25:38 like it was a convention of sorts 10:25:46 yeah i realise that now thanks 10:26:20 <_3b> # is a dispatching reader macro character, the next (non-numeric) character after that determines what it does 10:26:40 gotchya 10:26:50 shouldn't need it for this assignment though 10:26:51 <_3b> for example #'... expands to (FUNCTION ...), #( makes arrays, #\ makes characters etc 10:30:24 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-132-170-158.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:31:19 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-79-109.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:34:57 -!- redb1ue [i=star@ppp012.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:41:32 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:45:55 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 10:46:48 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:47:40 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 10:47:55 -!- Tordek_ is now known as Tordek 10:48:18 -!- seangrov` [n=user@216.70.164.144] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:53:26 joswig [n=joswig@g224121102.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:54:26 -!- joswig [n=joswig@g224121102.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 10:55:28 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:03:14 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177144233.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:11:52 does the catch object have use besides being a label for the block? I am just wondering why it has to be an object, is there some special purpose 11:12:14 have use/have a use 11:12:55 <_3b> what else woudl it be? 11:13:02 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.115.204.83] has joined #lisp 11:14:32 just a label like block, but i think i have just figured it out, its to give it its dynamic nature 11:15:00 <_3b> it is just a label, 'object' in this case means 'any lisp datum' 11:15:12 <_3b> only requirement is that it be eq comparable 11:16:11 _3b but you have to create it as an object to use it with a (defparameter *label* (cons nil nil)) for example 11:16:23 where as with block you could just use *label* 11:16:33 <_3b> you can use 'label if you like 11:17:21 <_3b> throw/catch evaluate their arguments, unlike block/return-from 11:17:40 ah great, thats more to my liking 11:18:32 i'll use the quoted form, thanks 11:19:05 <_3b> that way you can for example pass the object to throw as a parameter or whatever as well 11:19:49 <_3b> while block/return-from needs to do more complicated things with their labels to get lexical scoping right, which probably wouldn't work with unevaluated tags anyway 11:21:50 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:22:42 _3b you could pass a lambda with the return-from with blocks, that was practical common lisp's example 11:23:02 <_3b> right, that is what makes the lexical scoping complicated 11:23:12 -!- no_mind [n=orion@122.163.221.152] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:23:36 Vittor [n=n@174.230.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 11:24:16 -!- Vittor [n=n@174.230.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:24:23 you don't have to pass anything with the catch throw, which is a simplicity for sure 11:24:41 <_3b> right, but you can only throw to the innermost catch 11:24:59 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 11:25:08 <_3b> imagine for example a recursive function, if you have a catch at every level with the same tag, you can only THROW out one level 11:25:29 <_3b> but if you pass a list of closures with a return-from to each level, you can call those and exit back to any level 11:25:43 <_3b> even though all the blocks have the same name 11:26:15 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:26:54 ok, cheers, my first time looking at these 11:27:11 -!- Jafet is now known as tefaJ 11:27:15 <_3b> allowing arbitrary evaluated objects for catch/throw also lets you use gencym, or cons or whatever to create a tag at runtime, to reduce the risk of other code accidentally conflicting 11:27:23 <_3b> *gensym 11:27:51 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:12 <_3b> generally, probably better to use the condition system though, it is much nicer :) 11:28:28 ya, this is a slight special case 11:28:33 <_3b> (for dynamic stuff, not for things return-from would do) 11:28:58 i want to have recursion but without the stack building up 11:29:11 its for a re prompting input 11:30:02 *_3b* avoids even trying to think about that enough to have an opinion on whether it is a good idea or not :p 11:31:17 *_3b* thinks someone should write a CL for JS, so i don't have to learn parenscript :p 11:31:33 hhh ya its not even all that worthwhile, the user would have to enter a lot of wrong values to actually blow the stack anyway 11:32:23 good learning experience though, which is my main goal here 11:36:08 <_3b> anyone know what the ps/js equivalent of listp,arrayp, or atom would be? 11:36:39 no_mind [n=orion@122.163.248.95] has joined #lisp 11:36:46 <_3b> ah, (= (typeof foo) *array) maybe 11:38:42 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.169.94] has joined #lisp 11:46:23 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.210.212] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:47:40 -!- tefaJ is now known as Jafet 11:48:01 hi guys, i'm trying to help a friend 11:48:09 i type in (defparameter *start-state* (list '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7) '() '() ) ) 11:48:20 and get *start-state* as the response from clisp 11:48:29 my friend gets "unmatched" 11:48:45 anyone know why? i'm just trying to help her with her problem, 11:48:57 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-46.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:49:35 shrewd, post her exact error message 11:50:18 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 11:50:25 looks like you forgot a closing bracket? 11:52:20 yes nevermind, she has it working 11:52:39 funny i tried to run it exactly as she typed it and it was fine 11:52:51 thanks guys i assume it was a missing ) somewhere 11:53:38 why does lispaste not highlight? :| 11:55:03 lrn2balance 11:55:13 i see... 11:55:14 Guthur pasted "2nd func undefined after throw" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88152 11:55:57 any ideas the reason why I can't pass func to the recursive call after the throw 11:57:34 <_3b> shrewd: you probably didn't specify a channel, or colorize as: option if you don't want it on a channel 11:58:04 Guthur, use funcall 11:58:07 ok... 11:58:15 i will check my options next time 11:58:27 <_3b> Guthur: did you mean (prompt-for func args) for the recursive call? 11:58:45 _3b ya i am an idiot 11:58:46 thanks 11:58:51 <_3b> shrewd: you can change the colorizing while looking at an existing paste with the menu at the bottom of the paste 11:58:54 o sorry i misread it 11:59:02 _3b well spotted 11:59:19 <_3b> (it won't remember it or change it for anyone else though) 11:59:23 c|mell no problem 11:59:24 mnl [n=mnl@dslb-088-072-164-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:28 thanks 12:00:34 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:04 -!- mnl [n=mnl@dslb-088-072-164-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:01:05 mnl_ [n=mnl@dslb-088-072-164-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:54 johnny_z [n=johnny_Z@217.24.250.130] has joined #lisp 12:04:53 jeti [n=jeti@p548EE7C4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:26 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:07:10 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.90.142] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:09:41 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-211-174.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:48 -!- johnny_z [n=johnny_Z@217.24.250.130] has quit [] 12:13:02 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:13:54 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:14:16 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 12:17:13 -!- setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:18:39 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-60-169.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:18:42 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:23:31 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 12:24:01 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-0-199.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:25:17 shrewd2 [n=arn@220-253-45-74.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:31:13 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-121-100.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:31:41 -!- shrewd [n=arn@220.253-236-179.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:33:02 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.90.142] has joined #lisp 12:38:18 pr_ [n=pr@p579CA3C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:56 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-121-100.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:45:48 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.235] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:49:32 ejs [n=eugen@209-60-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:08 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:55:04 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-38-173.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 12:55:45 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2D986.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:55:59 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 12:56:16 mnl [n=mnl@dslb-088-072-164-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:47 -!- kingless [n=user@adsl-150-138-128.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit ["time to run errands"] 13:01:55 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:02:05 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 13:02:07 sykopomp: you never change {send,recv}-blocks-p or channel-being-written-p. 13:04:08 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:04:20 -!- mnl_ [n=mnl@dslb-088-072-164-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:07:08 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:10:10 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:10:47 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:11:55 -!- milanj- [n=milan@79.101.169.94] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:13:02 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-2.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 13:13:23 shrewd [n=arn@220-253-40-28.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:13:25 hey guys two qq's : i'm doing this (list* '(x x) '(x)) => ((x x) (x)) but i want to produce a list that is just (x x x) 13:14:14 clhs list* 13:14:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_list_.htm 13:14:18 clhs append 13:14:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_append.htm 13:14:28 shrewd: read those two pages 13:14:45 and spot the differences 13:15:09 right thanks 13:15:22 -!- shrewd2 [n=arn@220-253-45-74.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:16:46 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:16:56 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:16:57 in a DEFCLASS definition, is there a way for the :INITFORM of one slot to refer to the value of another slot? 13:17:17 my second question: i'm trying to count x's in a list like this (x x o x) i want to count that there is one instance of x x in that list but (count '(x x) '(x x o x)) doesn't work 13:18:26 clhs count 13:18:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_countc.htm 13:18:47 shrewd: you'll have to do that yourself. cl:count only counts single elements 13:19:15 shrewd: you were already pointed to SEARCH. 13:19:18 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 13:19:34 i was pointed to search before count sorry i'll look again, 13:20:13 clhs search 13:20:13 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:20:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_search.htm 13:21:05 how about this, can i convert the list of objects to a string and search for patterns in the string? 13:21:06 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:22:48 ppc eieio 13:22:48 Enforce In-Order Execution of I/O: http://www.nersc.gov/vendor_docs/ibm/asm/eieio.htm#idx390 13:23:43 maybe i should back track: whats the best way to count occurences of a pattern in a list such as (x x o x o) ie, looking for the amount of times x is followed by an x (in this case once) 13:24:45 macdice, no there isn't, it's rather annoying 13:24:46 <_3b> loop over every pair of elements and count when both are x ? 13:24:51 shrewd: (count-if #'identity (maplist (lambda (s) (search '(x x) s)) '(x x a))) 13:25:00 shrewd: why the obsession with strings? 13:25:14 coming from java etc i suppose 13:25:19 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:25:39 wow thankyou that looks so complicated, i think i would have been very stuck 13:26:02 I would fail you for hiding information in strings in java as well as in lisp. 13:26:12 macdice you could use use initialize-instance :after 13:26:45 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:27:00 well i'd only do something so badly if i was stuck, i don't think i would get stuck in java it's too easy 13:28:24 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:28:44 <_3b> how would you do it in java? 13:29:45 ehu` [n=chatzill@5354B9BA.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp 13:29:50 <_3b> shrewd: also, make sure you find the bug in fe[nl]ix's code before trying to use it :) 13:29:59 bug eh? 13:30:05 chucked it in clisp 13:30:09 and it seems to behave 13:30:12 _3b: not sure there's a bug; shrewd changed the spec in flight. 13:30:37 <_3b> pkhuong: not sure i saw a spec that matched that implementation 13:30:59 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-72-12.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:31:21 what have i done? spec in flight? oh gosh i'm 1.8 days old to lisp i'm easily confused 13:31:43 <_3b> unless you mean exactly "count 1 when the input is '(x x o x)" 13:32:06 <_3b> shrewd: he means you aren't being very clear about what you want to do 13:32:13 i see... 13:32:20 <_3b> shrewd: so anything we suggest is based on random guesses on our part 13:32:26 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-180-132.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 13:33:04 i want to count occurences of x followed by another x in a list like this (x x o x x) this should return 2 13:33:17 angel_ [n=angel@221.223.126.169] has joined #lisp 13:33:17 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:33:18 how about (x x x)? 13:33:27 <_3b> shrewd: so did you find the bug then? 13:33:34 yeah lol 13:33:54 i don't really mind if (x x x) returns two as i can still work with that 13:34:07 <_3b> would you prefer it return something else? 13:34:10 but (x x o x x) returns 4 it seems 13:34:37 shrewd: but really, how would you do it in java? 13:35:11 you mean working on a list of say single letters? 13:35:29 sure. 13:35:39 probably with a simple loop that iterates through the list counting up when it finds an x followed by another x 13:35:44 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:36:11 -!- mnl [n=mnl@dslb-088-072-164-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:36:12 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:37:18 Guthur: thanks, that seems to make sense for my case. it seems like CLOS doesn't exactly have constructors (no reason you can't make regular functions which act as constructors of course) 13:37:20 and you can't write that in lisp? 13:37:44 i wasn't aware i could 13:37:50 is there, say, for loop ? 13:38:04 <_3b> lisp and java are turing complete, they can express all the same programs 13:38:05 this solution that i have looks mighty alien to me 13:38:07 <_3b> clhs loop 13:38:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm 13:38:21 <_3b> CL has much more powerful loops than java :p 13:38:22 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:38:28 really... 13:38:40 <_3b> (unfortunately, that might make it more than you want to learn right now though) 13:38:52 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:38:53 so should i attempt to use a loop to solve this problem then? 13:39:01 <_3b> that is probably what i would use 13:39:26 <_3b> you could also use reduce and one of the map variants 13:39:35 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:39:56 wow looping looks hard, but i'll see what i can do 13:39:58 shrewd: (count-if (lambda (x) (eql x 0)) (maplist (lambda (s) (search '(x x) s)) '(x x a x x))) 13:40:12 or (loop for s on '(x x o x x x) count (eql 0 (search '(x x) s))) 13:40:21 fe[nl]ix: might as well count 0 13:40:27 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:40:35 count 0 ? 13:40:41 shrews there is other loop constructs as well, do, dolist 13:40:44 pkhuong: oops, right 13:40:54 do is quite easy to use 13:40:57 but if you're going to loop, (loop for (x y) on list count (and (eq x 'x) (eq y 'x))). 13:41:18 shrewd my comments above were for you, sorry typo on the name 13:41:26 thats fine i read everything 13:41:32 thanks 13:41:33 guys 13:41:42 i will try to make sense of all this in clisp 13:41:51 but, so many suggestions 13:42:04 i don't know which to try to use 13:42:06 there is dotimes as well hehe 13:42:30 shrewd for an ok description - http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-standard-control-constructs.html 13:43:19 Guthur: shrewd is determined not to learn the language. 13:43:48 <_3b> (count '(x x) (mapcar 'list l (cons :not-the-droids-we-are-looking-for l) :test 'equalp) 13:44:15 <_3b> (where l is the '(x x o x whatever) list) 13:44:52 *_3b* didn't think to use #1= soon enough :( 13:45:19 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:45:31 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:45:39 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-79-109.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 13:46:35 danlei [n=user@pD9E2D986.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:54 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:47:07 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:47:16 shrewd2 [n=arn@220-253-157-79.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:47:22 sorry net died 13:48:19 -!- shrewd [n=arn@220-253-40-28.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:48:43 i mean you guys have given me the soltuion i just wish to understand it a little better 13:48:53 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-174-63.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 13:49:21 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:49:44 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:53:17 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:53:54 shrewd did you get that link i posted 13:54:02 shrewd2 ^ 13:54:13 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:54:57 macros standard control? yeah i skimmed, and it's sitting there for me to reference back to if i get stuck 13:54:57 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:54:58 thanks 13:55:03 guthur 13:55:24 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:55:51 mnl [n=mnl@dslb-088-072-164-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:13 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:58:24 shrewd2 keep that practical common lisp book handy its very useful when starting with lisp, i find it so anyway. http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 13:58:34 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:58:41 thanks again guther 13:59:13 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 14:02:31 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-84-210.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 14:04:48 anyone know why i'm getting this error? http://paste.lisp.org/display/88155 14:04:48 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:04:58 it says it's "not a list" 14:05:11 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:05:13 if it's not then i don't know what i'm working with 14:05:54 <_3b> #2a makes an array, not a list 14:06:01 oh.... 14:06:12 can anybody give me an example to describe define-setf-method 14:06:14 clhs array 14:06:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_array.htm 14:07:35 clhs define-setf-method 14:07:36 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for define-setf-method. 14:07:36 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:07:49 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:07:53 clhs define-setf-expander 14:07:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_3.htm 14:08:18 angel_: have you been reading cltl2 ? 14:08:21 after reading specbots array page i'm none the wiser 14:08:47 yes ,i'm reading , but i can't understanding it 14:09:04 shrewd2: nth works only on lists, for arrays you need aref 14:09:17 aref == nth ? 14:09:39 to me that array looks like a list of lists (6 x 6) 14:09:42 <_3b> nth works on lists, aref works on arrays (and handles multiple dimensions) 14:09:55 <_3b> that is a 2 dimensional array 14:09:59 yes 14:10:05 example aref usage? 14:10:07 <_3b> if you replaces the #2a with ' you would have a list of lists 14:10:29 <_3b> (aref array 1 1) for a 2d array 14:10:34 thanks all 14:10:36 -!- angel_ [n=angel@221.223.126.169] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:11:24 is there perhaps an easy way to look in an array for patterns ? 14:11:25 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:12:38 thanks _3b for the aref example, i got the hang of it 14:13:05 <_3b> depending on the patters, you will probably need nested loops 14:13:36 this assignment is insane, we have not covered these things lisp is only a section of this class! 14:13:41 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 14:13:57 still, gotta do what you gotta do, 14:13:58 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:14:31 <_3b> you might also find displaced arrays and equalp useful 14:14:50 -!- mnl [n=mnl@dslb-088-072-164-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:15:01 <_3b> well, that is what you get for asking us for help instead of your class/instructor :) 14:15:11 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:15:33 shrewd2 i think you are mixing your problem domain in with the language to much, use simple language constructs to solve you problem, not the language itself 14:15:45 not sure if that clearly says what i mean 14:15:58 no i get you, and tbh thats how i've gotten as far as i have 14:16:00 mnl_ [n=mnl@dslb-088-072-164-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:00 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:16:38 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:16:42 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:16:59 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:04 how do i construct a 1d array ? 14:17:19 <_3b> also, you array was 6x7, not 6x6 14:17:39 clhs vector 14:17:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_vector.htm 14:17:39 <_3b> #(...) for a literal array, or VECTOR or MAKE-ARRAY 14:18:43 your very observant 14:19:03 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 105 (No buffer space available)] 14:19:52 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:20:11 trebor_home [n=email@dslb-084-059-022-175.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:36 i see (make-array 4) makes an array (nil nil nil nil) 14:20:52 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@5354B9BA.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:20:52 but how do i manipulate those values? i know how to read them 14:21:19 shrewd2: (setf (aref index) ) 14:21:24 <_3b> hmm, actually i guess displaced arrays won't help much for comparing chunks of 2d arrays, that's no fun 14:21:43 thanks 14:21:44 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:22:02 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:23:50 how do i get information on which host the app is running on? i tried host-namestring, but failed to use it properly. is there a portable way (working on win & unix)? 14:25:06 <_3b> clhs machine-instance 14:25:06 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:25:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mach_i.htm 14:25:41 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:26:05 <_3b> or ffi to something more specific on the platforms you care about 14:26:35 _3b: thanks, machine-instance is perfect. 14:26:44 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["leaving"] 14:27:14 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:14 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:27:47 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:30:58 -!- rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:30:58 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:31:25 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:33:32 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:32 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:33:33 using hunchentoot, is it necesary to define *dispatch-table* or does hunchentoot has some default dispatch method ? 14:34:41 <_3b> it has a default as far as i know 14:35:13 <_3b> you probably need to add things to it to do anything useful though 14:36:30 marioxcc [n=user@200.77.68.225] has joined #lisp 14:37:39 hmm so how do people arrange things in a package while using hunchentoot 14:38:01 I will like one set of functionality inside a package. Like a package for login and hence forth 14:38:33 and dispatcher to be able to identify which function I am calling inside a package 14:38:36 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 14:38:45 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:39:03 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:39:20 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:40:18 packages are just about symbol visibility. 14:40:44 you can work within your own package and add a symbol designating a function to hunchentoot:*dispatch-table* no problem. 14:40:48 Xach, yup, I know but they are good to keep code organized too 14:41:38 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-174-63.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has left #lisp 14:42:16 setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:42:35 you don't have to modify *dispatch-table* if you use define-easy-handler 14:42:53 ok 14:42:54 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:43:25 so I can have my own dispatcher without touching *dispatch-table* 14:47:17 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 14:47:18 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2D986.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:48:37 easy-handlers are included in *dispatch-table* by default 14:52:00 KingNato [n=patno@84-217-4-18.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:38 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@85.4.220.156] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:55:44 danlei [n=user@pD9E2D986.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:05 -!- KingNato [n=patno@84-217-4-18.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:56:29 -!- setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit ["leaving"] 15:00:17 leifw [n=user@pha75-20-88-189-232-65.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:28 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:04:46 does anyone which thread API came first? GBBOpen or Bordeaux-(threads|mp)? they seem to have been influenced by each other (bt is a subset of GBBOpen's) or they're both trying to be compatible with an earlier API 15:07:42 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-45-9.w90-59.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:09:27 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-121-100.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:10:51 fusss: probably the later. 15:11:03 Lisp Machine's MP package comes to mind. 15:11:44 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-121-100.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:12:58 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:14:31 do I need to look at the Chinenual for that? 15:14:32 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B168B3F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:16:03 http://common-lisp.net/project/bknr/static/lmman/proces.xml 15:16:04 :-) 15:17:21 only multi process, no multi thread 15:18:13 Guthur: the replaced "process" with "thread"; you can see in stuff like all-threads coming from all-processes 15:19:28 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@118.43.201.120] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:19:35 c|mell [n=cmell@118.43.201.120] has joined #lisp 15:19:57 damn, a machine at MIT got its own value as a keyword argument :-P 15:20:29 ":dover printer-type This printer type is used by itself as a printer, and refers to the Dover at MIT. " 15:22:51 i think it was the first laser printer 15:23:00 implied from stallmans wiki page 15:23:28 is that what Dover Publications is named after? 15:23:44 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32D881.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:56 along with mail and time servers, they also had "spell-checker" servers! LOL 15:24:14 lispm [n=joswig@g224121102.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:24:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman#Decline_of_MIT.27s_hacker_culture according to paragraph 3 it inspired his advocacy of OSS 15:25:33 oh, i know that story 15:26:56 there is a German band named "Chine Nual"; their album is called "Tomorrows Leaders Are Busy Tonight" :-) 15:26:57 -!- gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:30:16 the process documentation of the online Lisp Machine Manual seems to have some problems, the generic operations are missing 15:30:35 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2D986.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:31:04 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:32:16 kenpp [n=kenpp@188-221-10-184.zone12.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:32:55 lispm 30.4 Process Generic Operations? 15:32:55 this PDF provides them: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/cadr/chinual_6thEd_Jan84/chineualJun84_29_Processes.pdf 15:33:14 yes 15:33:17 its there 15:33:32 no, the names of the operations are missing 15:33:38 oh 15:33:50 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-59-41.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:02 lol i see 15:34:08 si:process is the flavor, but the operation name is not displayed 15:34:24 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:35:17 thanks lispm for the Lisp Pointers link in /lisp/ 15:35:22 fusss: for a threads/process api see also CLIM-SYS : http://www.mikemac.com/mikemac/clim/clim-sys.html 15:35:25 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:35:26 could be a problem with the xml 15:35:58 anyway still not much use 15:36:22 fusss: I posted some more interesting links to reddit/lisp but they remain at rating 0 15:36:23 lispm: yep. they're way closer to clim-sys than anything else 15:36:29 -!- azuk` [i=azure@s2.org] has left #lisp 15:36:37 http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/new/ 15:36:46 maybe somebody wants to upvote them 15:37:05 that's karma-whoring! 15:37:15 OOPSLA 2008, Special Issue on Lisp 15:37:16 http://210.102.99.71:42435/toc.cfm?id=114669&type=issue&coll=ACM&dl=ACM&CFID=9768766&CFTOKEN=39282753 15:37:40 ska` [n=user@124.157.196.106] has joined #lisp 15:37:48 Conference Lisp on Functional Programming 1980-1994 15:37:49 http://210.102.99.71:42435/toc.cfm?id=SERIES288&idx=SERIES288&type=series&coll=ACM&dl=ACM&part=series&WantType=Proceedings&title=LFP&CFID=13660249&CFTOKEN=97465428 15:37:57 all papers from the conference 15:37:58 lispm: i never miss a link, i read your submission stream several times a week 15:38:01 the name is in the XML doc, i really shouldn't have wasted my time thought 15:38:04 though* 15:38:17 anything to avoid reading this paper in front me i suppose 15:38:22 fusss: that's good ;-) 15:38:51 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:39:02 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:39:09 I like the style of the old Steele papers, like the Common Lisp paper from 1982, with nice ornaments 15:39:32 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:39:38 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.248.130] has joined #lisp 15:39:54 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.77.68.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:40:04 last: Communications of the ACM, 1991, Special Issue on Lisp 15:40:06 http://210.102.99.71:42435/toc.cfm?id=114669&type=issue&coll=ACM&dl=ACM&CFID=9768766&CFTOKEN=39282753 15:40:35 now, where to get time to read all these? 15:40:54 marioxcc [n=user@200.77.68.225] has joined #lisp 15:41:02 I'm not sure if that's an ACM error that they are available without cost, but as long as the server is there I think it is a good service ;-) 15:41:27 stassats: good question 15:41:27 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:41:50 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:41:52 stassts: it is already difficult to select the most interesting ones 15:41:52 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 15:41:54 why do people use java instead of lisp ? 15:42:17 why am i having brown eyes? 15:42:27 it tastes better 15:42:31 no_mind, you might want to ask that in #Java 15:42:55 stassats: learn to read Abstracts :-P 15:42:59 asked it in #java but no response. SO I thought will ask here 15:43:02 I could help you why people prefer Lisp instead of Java 15:43:38 fusss: well, that needs time as well 15:43:39 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:43:52 I prefer lisp over java because of shorter development cycle 15:44:01 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:44:07 no_mind people in #java don't know about lisp or they would be using it... 15:44:21 umm probably not though 15:44:28 Guthur, good point 15:45:34 maybe they don't know where to get enough parentheses cheap enough 15:45:46 i used java only very briefly, never much liked it for some reason, an then I got old an opinionated and liked it even less hehe 15:46:09 my computer has an expensive parentheses factory 15:46:29 -!- leifw [n=user@pha75-20-88-189-232-65.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:46:31 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:46:42 lispm so it was you who cause the parentheses market to crash 15:46:51 over supply 15:46:52 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:59 yes 15:47:17 I'm storing 90% of the world's parentheses 15:47:39 *_3b* buys surplus {} from failed c++ projects, and whittles them down to () as a hobby 15:47:51 haha 15:47:51 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:48:08 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:48:48 I know somebody who does that with <> from unread XML documents 15:50:34 minion: tell me about xach-asdf 15:50:34 stassats: please look at xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 15:50:39 mathrick [n=mathrick@users172.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:51:08 no_mind: in this article:http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Essays/psychology.html you will find clues as to why people use inferior languages and other tools. 15:51:08 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:51:45 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:54:44 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:57:00 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:57:56 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.76.170] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:00:54 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:01:07 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:04:54 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:04:57 the Steele paper "An Overview of Common Lisp" has the "non-goals" of the CL standardization committee; Graphics, Multiprocessing, and Object Oriented Programming. they were able to tackle last in two iterations, but the first two were too platform specific to be resolved. If the effort went on for another year, til 1995, they would have arrived at the same design Fahlman and McKay arrived at... 16:04:59 ...for Dylan for the GUI, DUIM, and multiprocessing was already taking shape giving birth to a semi-standard subset of CLIM-SYS 16:05:18 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:06:38 later during standardization these topics were discussed and there even were proposals 16:07:37 danlei [n=user@pD9E2D986.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:30 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:08:32 shame the standardization process died off 16:08:56 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:10:18 c|mell: other languages do well without a standard it seems. 16:10:53 wchogg [n=wchogg@71-34-77-216.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:26 it's lucky that clim-sys's interface wasn't standardized: it would preclude SMP lisps from being useful 16:12:27 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:12:34 beach those languages mostly have a dictator 16:12:37 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2D986.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:12:40 clim-sys:without-scheduling 16:12:49 they did a very good job of trimming down platform dependent stuff; mapping became just functions instead of flow control, tail recursion got subsumed into declarations, lexical expressions were swallowed into the language semantics, tables got axed, so did resources, 24-bit arithmetic, matrices and linear algebra stuff, stack groups, locatives, subprimitives, areas, fasl file formats, etc. 16:13:04 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:13:26 krystof: implement it as a macro that raises an error ;-) 16:13:35 -!- mnl_ [n=mnl@dslb-088-072-164-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:13:49 ChaosNet could've been cleaned up to a nice tcp/ip api, a la usocket, gray streams would have made it in, and the rest could just be in libraries where they're needed. 16:13:50 beach languages were you thinking of, main ones i see: C/C++ standards, .net languages dictator, java dictator 16:14:20 -!- xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:14:21 languages/which languages 16:14:27 danlei [n=user@pD9E2D986.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:38 fusss: http://delivery.acm.org/10.1145/1320000/1317201/p41-mathis.pdf?key1=1317201&key2=5582764521&coll=ACM&dl=ACM&CFID=9006420&CFTOKEN=51291955 16:15:17 lispm: cheers! 16:15:27 beach: nice article, that learning one 16:16:08 Lisp standardization has never died off, imo, it went on, but instead of named individuals, legions of 'faceless' hackers kept on producing portable libraries and consolidated APIs. 16:17:07 clhs use-value 16:17:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_use_va.htm 16:17:09 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:17:47 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:18:55 fusss: yeah. lisp actually has a way of dealing with different implementations and has a culture of doing it. whereas in other languages this might be completely foreign 16:19:33 guaqua: most 'other' languages don't have the variety in implementations Common Lisp has 16:19:54 very true, too 16:20:46 All languages used to have this variety (e.g., C, Fortran) 16:21:22 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:21:32 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:21:46 homogeneity (and even the possibility of homogeneity) is a relatively recent phenomenon 16:21:48 housel: there are more "mainstream" Lisp compilers than there C. In my opinion. 16:22:23 Not in the embedded market, for instance 16:22:50 most commercial shops use GNU C or MS VS; the sane ones test on both, and after that there is intel .. borland? watcom? and no one else .. LCC and tinyC are strictly for hobbyists 16:23:21 sun 16:23:30 -!- ejs [n=eugen@209-60-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:23:43 stassats: i worked at a sun shop and we installed GNU C from sunfreeware .. 16:23:43 Digital used to have a seriously great compiler for the VAX then the Alpah. 16:23:47 setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:24:20 lol finally, i've written a heuristic that minimax can use to play a good game of connect a 4 16:24:20 stassats: you use the sun compiler to rebuild SunOS and GNU C for everything else 16:24:20 There are countless different C compilers for 8051 and PIC 16:24:24 I think they invented C++ to prevent people from writing compilers 16:24:26 thanks for all the help guys 16:24:36 ARM's compiler probably dominates the ARM embedded market 16:25:11 ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.233] has joined #lisp 16:25:32 housel: but embedded systems don't have the same sort of 'community'; most shops are big and closed down. we're talking about platform compatibility for code shared among a community. 16:25:44 shrewd2 now learn emacs, and keep lisping , hehe 16:25:59 housel: where is the cliki or cpan or sourceforge or github of the "embedded community"? 16:26:02 shrewd2: I wrote a visual board of conecta4 in order to check lispbuilder-sdl 16:26:11 guther: when things settle down i intend to learn emacs 16:26:16 thanks 16:26:31 if you want I can send you to you add your minimax implementation :-) 16:27:10 come again? 16:27:10 lol 16:27:13 anyway i'm super tired :) time for sleep 16:27:20 it's real late in australia 16:27:33 night all, and thanks again 16:27:40 no probs 16:28:28 shrewd2: it's only 3:28 in Sydney ;-) 16:31:09 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:31:10 Geralt1 [n=Geralt@p5B32C42E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:28 -!- Geralt1 is now known as Geralt 16:31:33 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-105-216.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:32:19 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:34:07 btw, we can see the same progression in rdbms libraries; the fancy select statement with square bracket arguments now seen clsql and postmodern has its roots in Paul Meurer's SQL-ODBC 16:34:43 that too most likely from UncommonSQL or another 16:34:53 which has its roots in th LispWorks sql interface 16:36:44 ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 16:38:12 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:38:23 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-192-193.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:38:36 by uncommonsql i really meant CommonSQL 16:38:40 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:38:48 I am just a frequent user of the Un* packages 16:39:17 fuss, do you think the square-brackets syntax is a good thing? 16:39:17 -!- shrewd2 [n=arn@220-253-157-79.VIC.netspace.net.au] has left #lisp 16:39:20 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 16:40:08 tic: i don't care for it 16:40:16 it doesn't work in clsql :-P 16:40:18 i never really understood why that syntax is there 16:40:44 i do all my database interactions with make-instance and setf :-) 16:40:44 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:41:17 An ORM{ 16:41:18 ? 16:41:23 in clsql you do this (select * :from 'table :where (sql-= 'field value)) 16:42:44 tic: more or less; i have abstracted away all database access to 6 functions, which i memoize for caching purposes, and i avoid having to run an external db cache like memcached by telling the load-balancer to send all sessioned traffick to its originating server 16:43:17 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:43:21 fusss, *nod* I agree there, you rarely write much direct SQL anyway, making special syntax feels pointless. 16:43:32 that way you have hunchentoot's SESSION-VALUE work without hacking hunchentoot with an external database session store; it works. 16:45:12 and once you break the 1000 requests / second barrier on one box, your sql backend stops looks relational anyway. i decided to go with a flexible scalable design of dumb database and smart middleware, instead of hunkering down and learning the ins and outs of a particular rdbms and performing query tunning magic. 16:45:50 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.90.142] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:47:33 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:47:53 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:49:26 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:50:08 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:50:44 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-13-229.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:55:13 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 16:55:48 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-14-143.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:55:48 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:55:54 fusss you could maybe just dump to relational model altogether, but i need to look into the alternatives more myself before commenting to much 16:56:01 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:56:34 Guthur: i am using a key/value store built on top of mysql 16:56:37 -!- tvl [n=tudor@TSA.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:57:05 it would be politically difficult at the moment to use a proper k/v store 16:58:18 i am still wet behind the ears wrt databases and big web app deployment, and i certainly don't want to be who lost data because of his choice of a toy database. plus we have a bunch of regulations we need to comply with .. 16:58:47 mysql is fine with a regulation? 16:58:53 what does the app do? 16:58:57 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:59:43 lispm: it's a massive pile of enterprisey stuff that lies at the intersection of healthcare and education 17:00:00 in lisp 17:00:04 yeah 17:00:22 fusss seems a half way house between pointer based OODB and RDB, on first glance anyway 17:00:29 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2D986.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:01:12 guaqua: regulations, in the sense that you can hire an independent consultant to "verify" your design and say you have done everything possible to secure private information 17:01:13 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:01:43 guaqua: there are many such shops and they have a big fat "mysql/postgres/oracle/sqlserver only" sign 17:01:44 oh, okay 17:01:57 sounds enterprisey 17:03:38 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:10:21 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:10:45 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:11:22 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-168-238-221.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:13:07 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:13:20 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:14:22 s0ber [i=pie@118-160-163-6.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:20 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.127] has joined #lisp 17:17:20 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:17:31 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:20:55 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-100-84.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 17:22:03 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:25:42 Athas`` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:27:09 bhlee [n=user@118.222.100.83] has joined #lisp 17:27:34 -!- bhlee [n=user@118.222.100.83] has quit [Client Quit] 17:28:22 bhlee [n=user@118.222.100.83] has joined #lisp 17:28:51 -!- bhlee [n=user@118.222.100.83] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:28:51 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:28:58 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:29:08 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:33:31 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-6-212.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:06 TR2N [i=email@89-180-163-127.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 17:37:17 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:39:31 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:40:21 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-4-18.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:40:22 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 17:42:04 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:42:25 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:44:43 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-60-169.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 17:45:35 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users172.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:45:37 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users172.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:46:34 Good evening! 17:46:34 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:46:39 evenin' beach 17:46:58 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:50:44 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:10 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:55:28 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:28 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:56:06 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:57:34 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:19 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:00:11 -!- _icecube_ [n=icecube@p549C6941.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:01:19 minion: message for felideon: the updated ucw tutorial is no longer in your dropbox, and the links are broken 18:01:20 you are being a bit negative 18:02:00 haha 18:02:54 minion: memo for felideon: the updated ucw tutorial is no longer in your dropbox, and the links are broken 18:02:54 Remembered. I'll tell felideon when he/she/it next speaks. 18:03:51 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:51 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:04:11 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:04:43 danlei [n=user@pD9E2D986.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:55 -!- _mathrick [n=mathrick@users172.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:09:28 -!- Athas`` is now known as Athas 18:11:01 Does anybody think that default print-object methods should be used when there is an error while printing object? 18:11:37 that sounds confusing 18:11:43 how about "an error report should be printed"? 18:11:54 that would be at least explicit 18:12:02 I.e. change # to #> 18:12:11 ah. 18:12:23 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:13:16 default method usually is just a name of the class, so it doesn't sound useful 18:13:35 This would at very least: 1. make the object type readily apparent, 2. help preventing nested errors and 3. massively win in case of meaningful default print-object methods, like in case of structures 18:13:53 stassats, eh? 18:14:12 stassats, # is more useful than type information? 18:14:24 and see #3 about structures 18:15:19 er, not more useful, but not of same usefulness 18:15:39 stassats, # is equally useful to type information? 18:15:39 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:15:49 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:15:59 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 18:16:19 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:16:52 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 18:17:13 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:18:52 deepfire: then just "error printing object of class ..." 18:18:53 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:19:15 stassats, not all objects are classes 18:19:15 -!- ska` [n=user@124.157.196.106] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:19:24 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:19:35 er, rather 18:19:42 just look at #3 18:19:50 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:20:23 You are losing information already available in case of useful default print-object methods. 18:20:31 It's really easy to understand. 18:20:43 (progn (defstruct bar) (class-of (make-bar))) => # 18:21:19 You can change that to print structures deeply. 18:21:41 At least you could, afair. 18:22:15 well, it's sufficient to know that your print-object on that class is faulty 18:22:34 ska` [n=user@124.157.196.106] has joined #lisp 18:23:22 i get nasty recursive errors when i make faulty print-objects 18:23:28 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:23:50 might not be the print-object though, and is rather the format, must check that 18:23:51 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:10 BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:31 oh i think it was because one of the slots was empty, no initform 18:24:33 (progn (defstruct bar x) (let ((*print-pretty* 1)) (write-to-string (make-bar :x 1)))) => #S(BAR :X 1) 18:25:29 I know, it's not used by default in the debugger. 18:26:04 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:27:40 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:28:29 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:28:47 And I wonder why, btw.. 18:30:00 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-92-23.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:30:05 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:05 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:30:10 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.125] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:30:36 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:32:51 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.115.204.83] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:32:59 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.116.22.38] has joined #lisp 18:33:11 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:34:08 ccl already prints # 18:37:59 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:37:59 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:38:44 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@93-82-5-106.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:39:02 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-151-200-238-90.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:13 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:40:50 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-92-23.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:42:38 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 18:42:38 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:43:14 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:44:22 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:46:21 * (octets-to-string (coerce '(170) '(vector (unsigned-byte 8))) :external-format '(:utf-8 :replacement #\?)) 18:46:21 "?" 18:48:46 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:49:00 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:49:12 Krystof: is the replacement a character ? 18:49:53 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:50:00 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:58 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-73-74.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:51:59 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:52:17 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:52:50 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-211-174.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:55:50 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:56:15 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:58:24 [Head|Rest] [n=nyao@217.149.190.125] has joined #lisp 19:00:14 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.127] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:00:15 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:00:26 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:00:42 disumu [n=disumu@p54BCF55A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:42 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:06:05 <_3b> is there a portable way to check for nan/infinite floats? 19:06:40 fe[nl]ix: why not min-depth and max-depth? just a random 0.02... 19:06:46 <_3b> i guess (/= x x) for nan? 19:06:54 and max-depth 19:07:03 _3b: eh, (not (= ...)) maybe? 19:07:05 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:07:18 (= x x), (< (abs x) (abs (* 2 x))) ? 19:07:33 <_3b> pkhuong: any difference between (not (= x x)) and (/= x x) ? 19:08:28 I'm trying to remember if there's a hardware /= and what it's supposed to do. 19:10:01 *attila_lendvai* is afk 19:10:17 redblue [i=star@ppp244.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:10:32 <_3b> ok, i'll just use not = then 19:10:46 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-054-238.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:20 _3b: yeah, /= will work. 19:11:49 <_3b> cool, thanks 19:12:02 I think ACL at least will constant fold that test away though. 19:12:02 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:12:28 <_3b> heh, that would be annoying, not that i intend to run on ACL any time soon 19:13:29 <_3b> does sbcl have any reliable way to generate a NaN that doesn't depend on floating point trap settings? 19:13:48 *_3b* seems to be loading something that adjusts those settings, which makes testing annoying 19:14:26 fe[nl]ix: the replacement is a string 19:14:34 _3b: sb-kernel:make-double-float. 19:14:37 there's a more general interface too (using restarts) but that's harder to expose 19:14:43 Krystof: nice 19:16:07 <_3b> pkhuong: make-single-float in my case, but that works 19:16:10 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 19:16:40 attila_lendvai: I like it better without the #\- 19:17:54 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:16 so #lisp 19:21:22 say I want to do manual memory management for some reason 19:21:33 how hard is that to do portably? What are my options? 19:22:01 Ralith: 1) question your reasons 19:22:19 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=nyao@217.149.190.125] has quit ["  ,     ."] 19:22:33 <_3b> hmm, guess i can't compare NaNs either :/ 19:22:56 fe[nl]ix: I know, I'm asking for a friend's benefit. It's not something I have any immediate intention of doing. 19:23:07 I'm also just curious. 19:23:54 _3b: float-nan-p? 19:24:15 hm, that's odd 19:24:23 I call that function but it doesn't seem to exist 19:24:26 clhs float-nan-p 19:24:26 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for float-nan-p. 19:24:53 Ralith: you can allocate foreign memory, but not store lisp objects inside 19:25:46 Ralith: also, some lisps allow you to allocate specialized simple-arrays in foreign memory 19:26:29 *_3b* tries (ignore-errors (= x x)) for a not-nan test 19:27:24 fe[nl]ix: that's it? 19:27:34 <_3b> that seems to have been effective, i should track down whatever is breaking my FP one of these days though 19:28:41 Ralith: yes. forget about allocating lisp objects in foreign memory 19:32:05 jasber_ [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 19:32:16 fe[nl]ix: and there's no way to exercise direct control over the handling in local memory? 19:32:20 xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 19:32:53 Ralith: what do you mean by "direct control" ? 19:33:23 fe[nl]ix: manual deallocation and the ability to prevent the GC from bothering with it 19:33:25 -!- jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:33:55 Ralith: I don't know of any GC that allows that 19:36:06 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:36:40 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:37:58 you can manually set references to nil (-: 19:38:44 _3b: GSLL has #'nanp 19:38:51 antifuchs: I don't suppose that's comparable to an explicit deallocation, though. 19:40:03 Ralith: yeah. let's consider it a bit of bulletproof safety footwear (: 19:45:52 there is a paper in regards to using some GC to produce a continuous list, you could may then use that as you memory map, doubt its a bullet proof approach and i only glanced through the paper - www.cs.berkeley.edu/~fateman/papers/cachelisp.pdf 19:46:02 Ralith ^ 19:46:33 its only pointers actually 19:47:15 slightly out of my depth to be honest hehe 19:47:22 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:47:47 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:49:49 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:50:16 mcspiff [n=user@142.177.75.91] has joined #lisp 19:55:45 rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:56:08 -!- lispm [n=joswig@g224121102.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 19:57:42 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-73-74.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:58:07 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229133146.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 19:59:27 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:59:27 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:59:34 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:00:11 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:02:06 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:02:25 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:03:19 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.77.68.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:03:24 marioxcc [n=user@200.77.68.225] has joined #lisp 20:05:14 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:05:32 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:05:45 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@78-69-144-82-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 20:06:39 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-45-9.w90-59.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:07:54 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.77.68.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:08:01 marioxcc [n=user@200.77.68.225] has joined #lisp 20:09:56 -!- jauaor [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [] 20:14:33 -!- xan_ is now known as xan-afk 20:15:06 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has joined #lisp 20:16:21 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 20:18:03 -!- ska` [n=user@124.157.196.106] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:18:56 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-46.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:19:24 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:19:42 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:21:10 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:21:13 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-73-74.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:21:16 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-73-74.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #lisp 20:21:30 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 20:23:00 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:23:11 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:24:31 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 20:24:33 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:24:51 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:26:47 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 20:27:54 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:28:28 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:28:54 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:14 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 20:29:24 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.177.75.91] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:29:27 -!- nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:30:48 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.83] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:32:40 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:36:42 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:43 lichtblau: are you around? 20:44:02 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:44:33 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:44:37 if i've defined an INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :AFTER method, but don't want it anymore, how can i undefine it? 20:45:23 macdice: easiest is to inspect the GF in SLIME, there's a button for removing methods 20:45:33 e.g., C-c I #'foo 20:45:38 -!- Athas` is now known as Athas 20:47:07 michaelw: perfect, thanks 20:47:07 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:47:23 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:47:33 *macdice* loves SLIME 20:48:18 minion: memo for lichtblau: just wanted to mention that I've put a fork of your atdoc up on github with a number of small bugfixes that I've done on it lately... maybe you'd like to pull them into the 'real' version... see http://github.com/thijs/atdoc-fork 20:48:18 Remembered. I'll tell lichtblau when he/she/it next speaks. 20:48:51 -!- jasber_ [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:49:20 jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 20:50:17 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:50:26 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.213.199] has joined #lisp 20:54:15 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 20:54:40 _icecube_ [n=icecube@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:56:09 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:26 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:01:55 francogrex [n=user@91.177.29.110] has joined #lisp 21:02:15 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 21:02:56 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:06 Hi, i'm fishing for some ideas... there a guy at work he set up an excel file on a common drive where people enter information and update it regularly all in that file 21:03:41 but 2 disadvantages: users see each others info and if an ass deletes the excel file all is lost 21:04:07 ...and concurrent edits could get lost... 21:04:10 Do you think there is a way to set up a good database using CL? 21:04:22 michaelw: yes indeed 21:04:52 I was thinking of something like an interface that connects to a real hideen database 21:04:54 francogrex: not unless you work in a place that doesn't value their employees' time 21:05:12 phf [n=user@c-76-124-103-85.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:16 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 21:05:52 cmm: I didn't get it? what do you mean? 21:06:07 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:06:20 well, the hard part would be replacing excel in a fashion that is transparent to the users 21:06:52 cmm-: it doesn't have to be excel 21:07:22 francogrex: that's highly non-obvious, I think 21:07:24 just a program or whatever where users enter their data (without seeing everyone else's data 21:07:50 and where the data get stored in a place they can't see or mess up with 21:08:02 francogrex: anything to get people to stop abusing excel for collaborative stuff like that should be a good idea imo 21:08:03 define "enter their data". what is the data later used for, and how? 21:08:05 like an SQL interface to a database i was thinking 21:08:32 cmm-: and... 'not' 'unless' "doesn't" was a bit much negation for me to parse too... ;) 21:08:42 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:08:56 well, there are a lot of variously nice and mature database systems, soem of them free. why would you want to mess around with lisp in this case? 21:09:26 (and I agree with that... why not try to find something existing that will fit?) 21:09:27 cmm- any excuse maybe? 21:09:30 thijso: yeah, well, at least I still can spell :] 21:09:56 cmm-: ? huh? 21:10:44 guys, it would be 1st a challenge and 2nd an inhouse application is nicer because we can control it and it's ours 21:10:49 thijso: when I'm _really_ tired I misspell every third word, and I'm not there yet. never mind :) 21:11:02 oh, ok.. ;) 21:11:49 but then I guess you don't have ideas for that? refences maybe to something similar already done? 21:11:50 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:12:23 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:12:32 francogrex sure go full on, set up a lisp server hunchentoot with a database then have a HTML javascript frontend 21:12:53 francogrex: you don't give enough information to discount existing database systems, and if your boss is sane he'd stop at that 21:13:53 heh .... i have replaced a lot of spreadsheets with web apps in my time. Always a good idea, never as easy as it seems 21:15:28 drewc certainly not, would definitely keep him busy for a while 21:15:28 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:16:01 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:16:04 francogrex, I will suggest looking at weblocks. Runs on top of hunchentoot 21:16:41 francogrex: do you think it makes sense to replace a spreadsheet that anyone can edit with a lisp application that only you will be able to maintain (assuming you're not a lisp shop)? 21:16:46 hunchentoot... ok will google it then 21:17:15 drewc: yes, it's more secure 21:17:32 users will enter/update fields with their info 21:17:35 minion: tell francogrex about hunchentoot 21:17:36 francogrex: look at hunchentoot: Hunchentoot is a web server written in Common Lisp and at the same time a toolkit for building dynamic websites. http://www.cliki.net/hunchentoot 21:17:37 francogrex: sounds like you've got NIH syndrome 21:17:59 NIH syndrome? 21:18:11 francogrex not in house 21:18:17 not invented here 21:18:23 or that 21:18:27 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:19:00 if you can, you should switch to using google docs for that 21:19:10 at least it has some concurrency 21:19:14 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-73-74.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:19:23 one option is to keep using excel for input/output, but have server side system (either over web or email) that will unpack and merge the data coming in in xls, and generate new snapshots xls to give out. 21:19:27 well, if you mean I prefer to build my own apps then you're right 21:19:28 MS are releasing excel as a web app now 21:19:30 guaqua: that's a practical suggestion! we use google docs for a few things. 21:19:52 google docs: is it secure? 21:19:57 drewc: it's quite nice. even for presentations 21:20:06 trebor_home pasted "memory consumption too high loading 200csv-files with 2000 lines with 20 rows each..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88182 21:20:18 phf: that's the Rube Goldberg way of solving problems 21:20:29 francogrex: the data is on someone elses hardware 21:20:48 but it's over https 21:21:11 i wish someone replicated google docs functionality and open-sourced it 21:21:25 sometimes ... _can_ blah blah should? 21:21:29 guaqua: but but i don't want google peeking in on our confidential data 21:21:47 that would guarantee the death of word processors 21:21:56 michaelw: i know it sounds terrible, but it's much nicer in practice. particularly when you don't necessarily have a mandate to replace the whole existing stack. excel in this case is used for io, and formulas, if any, are placed by the server 21:21:56 francogrex: well then it's not an option 21:22:38 michaelw: (formulas for user feedback. none of excel features are used for actual calculations) 21:22:51 francogrex: setting up a (perl) wiki which supports versioning would've taken you less time than you've wasted investigating lispy options 21:23:05 or any other wiki for that matter 21:23:14 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-73-74.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:23:17 dokuwiki doesn't even require a database 21:23:17 francogrex, what exactly are the benefits you will gain by writing a web app instead of continuing to use excel ? 21:23:36 guaqua: I am being told that mediawiki takes an age and a half to set up 21:23:50 phf: your suggestion may solve the issue of some idiot inadvertantly deleting the spreadsheet, but cannot prevent users from seeing others' data 21:23:54 michaelw: maybe minutes 21:24:17 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:24:47 i.e. extract the tar-ball, create the mysql database, modify one configuration file and you are set to go 21:24:47 no_mind: 1: data will be stored in a secure place that cannot be messed with 2: users will not see the data 21:25:18 guaqua: wait. where's the part of setting up mysql? 21:25:48 the assumption was to have a working mysql-php -stack 21:26:26 and that takes maybe minutes to install, too 21:26:44 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.253.136] has joined #lisp 21:27:00 anyhow, late enough for me 21:27:03 how about a prolog? 21:27:35 francogrex, as suggested earlier, implement a wiki or install a cms like drupal. That will allow you to 1) store data in central place 2) define restrictions on who can view/edit 3) allow revision control 21:27:51 francogrex: i missed the beginning of conversation, so i don't know what your needs are. my solution was deployed at a company, that needed to migrate a lot of financial logic from xls and into a central verified code. 21:29:03 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:29:48 (it was all lisp, except for code that converted from excel and into sexps, that was in java [apache poi]) 21:29:55 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:36 phf: all in lisp. I like things done all in lisp (as an aside: i think i'm addicted to lisp) 21:31:18 francogrex prolog? the language, are you taking the piss 21:32:03 Guthur, not the language, but was just reading while I was chatting here the 'on lisp' book where he talks about a database 21:32:40 maybe he was illustrating that you can build a prolog like database with CL 21:33:33 you know its maybe not as mad as it sounds 21:33:43 though it probably is mad for your case in had 21:33:47 had/hand 21:34:26 a database based on prolog, umm 21:34:27 Guthur: well, not the prolog thing, but the idea as a starter to what i need to setup 21:35:13 milanj [n=milan@79.101.169.94] has joined #lisp 21:36:07 for some reason lately I've realized I became a fanatic. I prefer that the application I have/write be all in CL (not even mixing a little C in it is ok anymore). crazy heh? 21:36:49 impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313886.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:37:27 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313886.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 21:39:07 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.248.130] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:41:27 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-60-169.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:41:46 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:41:59 anyone here has installed weblocks ? 21:44:13 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 21:44:25 alec [n=alec@pool-96-237-13-64.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:59 well now i see that in PCL also there is a chapter: 3. Practical: A Simple Database 21:46:49 francogrex: how do you plan to interface with the OS/ 21:46:52 ? 21:48:02 madnificent: doug crosher's direct syscalls, of course! 21:48:07 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 21:48:23 Xach: harsh, but it's an answer... guess it counts :P 21:49:22 madnificent: i gave that a try and it worked ok without too much work, actually. probably a pain to work on more than just linux/x86 21:49:27 -!- macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["(quit)"] 21:50:10 Xach: it would not be a pain if all the work would be put in libraries... in time, there will be an abstraction over the different operating systems :) 21:51:07 madnificent: there would be one OS type and that's all 21:51:17 no_mind nope but reading the web page makes it sound quite nice, must try it out sometime 21:51:33 francogrex: one OS type? 21:52:21 yes it's for one department within the firm 21:53:02 francogrex: you've lost me :( 21:53:27 in any case, it could be a good thing to have 21:53:37 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:53:41 it is also the first step towards a lisp shell 21:53:50 madnificent: i've meant i'll probably write an executable application 21:54:04 ah 21:54:19 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2D986.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:55:56 ok guys time to sleep. See you all later. 21:56:00 so guys 21:56:06 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:56:07 why exactly is there no C++ FFI? 21:56:18 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-73-74.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:56:42 good night francogrex 21:56:47 minion: verazzano for Ralith, please 21:56:48 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``verazzano''. 21:56:51 danlei [n=user@pD9E2D986.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:54 O_o 21:57:00 minion: tell Ralith about fetter 21:57:01 Ralith: direct your attention towards fetter: The end of the page was reached before a definition was found in http://www.cliki.net/fetter 21:57:05 hello Adlai! 21:57:20 hey madnificent! 21:57:24 minion: verrazano? 21:57:24 verrazano: You said Verrazano? Well sorry, the actual name is fetter. http://www.cliki.net/verrazano 21:57:36 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 21:57:42 minion: Verrazano? 21:57:42 Verrazano: You said Verrazano? Well sorry, the actual name is fetter. http://www.cliki.net/Verrazano 21:57:58 how are you Adlai? 21:57:59 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.177.29.110] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:58:53 *Adlai* sucks at spelling verrazano 21:58:53 *Adlai* is also leaving in like 3 seconds, just passed by for a moment. 21:59:00 Adlai: dead since 2005? 21:59:05 bye Adlai 21:59:13 Ralith: finished, maybe? 21:59:51 madnificent: software is never finished 21:59:55 there's a TODO on its homepage :P 21:59:56 Ralith: is it really? I seem to remember reading that some existing library is using it 22:00:17 Adlai: look at the news 22:00:24 CL-DWIM is using verrazano. 22:00:42 I assume that's only because it supports C++ headers though and that it doesn't have any other advantages over something like CFFI-Grovel. 22:01:09 Ralith: look at the news for TeX... doesn't mean it's dead. 22:01:14 -!- kenpp [n=kenpp@188-221-10-184.zone12.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:01:21 It's just resting :) 22:01:31 :P 22:01:36 TeX is maintained 22:01:42 doesn't look like that is. 22:01:58 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@78-69-144-82-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:01:58 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:02:12 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:03:28 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 22:03:57 Common Lisp, the language for Monty Pythonistas? "Naw, it's not dead. Just pining for the fjords." 22:07:28 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:10:02 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:11:10 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:12:13 Ralith: SWIG will generate CFFI/CL from C++, though apparently it's buggy. 22:12:41 LiamH: it does that by wrapping in C. 22:12:47 incidentally 22:12:55 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp244.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 22:12:56 yes 22:13:11 can CFFI be used to export CL functions to be callable by C code? 22:13:30 Ralith: yes, in a way. 22:13:38 in a way? 22:13:46 callbacks? 22:13:46 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:13:49 Ralith: callbacks 22:14:18 kk 22:14:20 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:14:23 I suppose it coudln't be anything static 22:14:32 Ralith: basically, lisp passes a function pointer to C. 22:14:41 kk 22:17:22 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32C42E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:24 redblue [i=star@ppp212.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:19:09 i wrote some code that iterates over callbacks, and generates a C file of `foo func(...) { return (*array_of_functions)(...); }' and a corresponding header file. so i can give it to C programmers and they just link against it. i then populate array_of_functions at runtime. 22:20:15 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:25:40 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-73-74.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:26:28 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:53 p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/session] has joined #lisp 22:27:54 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:28:27 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:28:46 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 22:30:11 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:31:50 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:32:04 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:34:59 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 22:35:15 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:35:36 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:36:02 -!- alec [n=alec@pool-96-237-13-64.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:36:20 -!- pr_ [n=pr@p579CA3C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:36:20 opinions about AoL vs. LiSP? 22:36:56 benny` [n=benny@i577A0B25.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:37:50 danlei: what's AoL? 22:37:55 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.169.94] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:37:58 Anatomy of Lisp 22:38:00 oh, 22:38:13 danlei: anatomy of lisp is pretty old fasioned. 22:38:21 danlei: lisp in small pieces is much, much more modern 22:38:47 danlei: i've heard anatomy of lisp has some things not covered elsewhere, but i sold my copy unread because i found it incomprehensible. 22:38:56 danlei: LiSP was much more fun to read 22:39:16 ok, thanks 22:39:17 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:39:18 seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:39:29 in LiSP, are there also interpreters/compilers for lisp-2's, or "only" lisp-1's? 22:39:53 danlei: it covers both lisp-1 and lisp-2 implementation concerns 22:39:54 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:40:02 very nice, thanks 22:40:03 danlei: it covers lisp-2 more than i expected 22:40:12 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:40:14 ok 22:42:06 danlei: i got AoL off ebay somewhat cheap because Movitz implementation was inspired by it. but then i couldn't really get into it. 22:42:14 then i sold my copy. 22:43:51 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6E9D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:16 I think I'll give LiSP a try 22:45:00 -!- phf [n=user@c-76-124-103-85.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:46:16 mm_freak [n=milch@2a01:198:2d4:0:dead:affe:dead:affe] has joined #lisp 22:46:22 hello there 22:46:33 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:46:49 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:46:50 is there an easy way to compile and run an ASDF package with SBCL? 22:47:23 currently i use: sbcl --eval "(asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op 'mypackage)" 22:47:28 but that enters the REPL 22:47:43 --script on the other hand skips my ~/.sbclrc file 22:48:34 mm_freak: if you are using clbuild, there's clbuild recompile 22:50:01 i'm not using it and my distribution seems not to provide it 22:50:12 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p54BCF55A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:50:17 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-31-118.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:50:34 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-121-100.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:51:07 a related question: is it feasible to compile to standalone binaries? for example to distribute windows executables 22:51:21 you can dump a lisp image 22:51:49 mm_freak: what exactly do you mean by "run"? you could save a core with all your systems loaded, and give the :toplevel keyword arg to ext:save-lisp-and-die for example. if it's just about recompiling (asdf:oos 'asdf:compile-op ') should do 22:52:11 s/ext/sb-ext/ 22:52:31 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A00BA.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 105 (No buffer space available)] 22:52:45 Lispworks professional version can do but it isn't free 22:53:51 maybe i'm still thinking too much in traditional edit-compile-run languages, where i would make my changes, recompile the project (make) and finally run the resulting binary 22:54:13 sb-ext:sabve-lisp-and-die can do it, too (with :executable) 22:54:26 ccl can do it too ... 22:54:47 but the resulting executables are pretty large, compared to implementations which have a tree-shaker 22:55:27 well, doesn't have to be a standalone executable, but at least some way for a non-programmer to easily run a lisp program 22:55:30 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:55:50 hm, sbcl can do shebang scripts, if I remember correctly 22:56:10 but that works only in unix/linux 22:56:16 http://whttp://www.sbcl.org/manual/Shebang-Scripts.html 22:56:27 yeah, it can do that with --script 22:56:38 but i'd rather not use that 22:56:57 well, so save a core 22:57:01 mjonsson [n=mjonsson@cpe-74-68-112-229.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:17 you load what's needed, do the save-lisp-and-die dance, and you're set 22:57:26 ok, thanks 22:57:30 np 22:57:38 what about my first question? 22:57:57 I'm not sure what you meant by "run" an asdf system 22:57:57 is there some 'make'-like way of running a lisp program, getting around the REPL? 22:58:33 i don't expect a user to fire up SBCL and type (asdf:operate ) 22:58:39 make won't run a program, it will compile it 22:58:50 the closest thing is saving a core 22:59:15 i was referring to the non-interactivity of 'make' 22:59:29 hm 22:59:33 ok, how do i save a core without entering the REPL? 23:00:51 I don't do that, but I guess I'd write a script which does it and then run it. if you want to spare the user to invoke sbcl --script or something like that, you could wrap that in a shell script. maybe someone has better tip than that 23:01:26 nothing prevents you from writing such a script which loads everything needed and then invokes save-lisp-and-die 23:01:31 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:01:37 myst [n=x@dynamic-vpdn-93-125-14-64.telecom.by] has joined #lisp 23:01:47 not a 1:1 match to "make" though ... 23:02:34 mm_freak: xcvb will be able to do that, and you can fairly easily write a script that you can load from the command line that will asdf-load a system. 23:02:41 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:03:04 ok, thanks 23:03:14 thought there is some canonical way to do it 23:03:15 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:03:25 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:03:34 *sykopomp* likes pretending that he isn't in unix-hell. 23:04:05 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:04:22 i find clisp much more convenient than SBCL =/ 23:04:35 mm_freak: you're most likely trying to use it wrong. 23:04:36 do you use slime? 23:04:40 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:05:03 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:05:13 SBCL isn't nice on the command line without rlwrap etc 23:05:14 danlei: i have it loaded, but i wouldn't say that i 'use' it in the usual sense of 'using' 23:05:32 -!- spacebat_ is now known as spacebat 23:05:49 mm_freak: unlike languages like python, we don't usually do $ sbcl file.lisp 23:06:03 sykopomp: what do we do instead? 23:06:07 so if you're trying to do things that way, while you -can- sort of do it, it's not really a very good experience. 23:06:10 well, using the bare command-line repl is not such a good idea. you should learn a little about emacs and slime, that's the "standard" lisp ide 23:06:23 mm_freak: we go into a repl, load the system we're working on, and interactively code on the same running image. 23:06:34 usually, this means SLIME 23:06:36 and even though emacs has a steep learning curve, it's worth the time, especially if you want to code lisp 23:06:53 danlei: i know emacs fairly well, but haven't worked with SLIME yet 23:06:55 although some lisps have other integrated IDEs on some platforms (CCL's IDE, for example) 23:07:01 mm_freak: then get started with slime 23:07:26 mm_freak: when you're happy with what you've interactively coded, you can dump the lisp image and later run that as your application 23:07:42 maybe i'll leave ASDF for now and learn how to write lisp properly first =) 23:08:12 well, learning about asdf pretty early isn't that bad in my opinion 23:08:15 clbuild is a nice starting point 23:08:38 a lot of people talk about clbuild 23:08:40 what is it? 23:08:49 i can't find it in my distribution 23:08:51 I think things like packages and systems should be thaught early ... 23:09:01 a shell script that is designed to bootstrap a lisp environment 23:09:18 *taught 23:09:22 typically SBCL + a fair number of common systems 23:09:51 mm_freak: google it up, its on cliki and common-lisp.net 23:09:52 danlei: i've learned the basics already, but lisp programming works so different from haskell or C 23:10:08 -!- benny` is now known as benny 23:10:17 speaking of differences, I find myself wondering about lisp eval 23:10:38 it's like common lisp is really just some basic types and a syntax 23:10:43 mm_freak: best thing you can do is start using slime asap 23:10:52 coming from perl/python/javascript, where eval works in the context of its lexical environment 23:10:59 -!- ruediger_ [n=ruediger@93-82-5-106.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:11:01 no modules, namespaces or such 23:11:08 it seems weird that lisp eval doesn't have its lexical env 23:11:08 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:11:16 does anyone know the rationale for that? 23:11:25 there are "namepaces", namely packages 23:11:36 danlei: isn't that nonstandard? 23:11:52 packages are standard, systems (what asdf does) not 23:11:56 CL packages are part of the standard 23:12:06 oh, ok 23:12:39 are systems really nonstandard in the sense of disobeying the standard? 23:12:49 mm_freak: http://www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf 23:12:53 they don't disobey it 23:13:07 that's what i meant 23:13:15 they merely perform higher level actions using it 23:13:39 That package PDF is pretty awful. 23:13:43 I wish someone would write a replacement. 23:14:00 *Xach* puts it in his queue 23:14:22 *danlei* doesn't know anything better for beginners 23:14:35 -!- trebor_home [n=email@dslb-084-059-022-175.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:14:40 maybe the sections in practical common lisp 23:15:21 http://gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html 23:15:54 btw, i heard a number of times that CL is actually quite an ugly dialect of lisp, but i couldn't find any alternatives 23:16:07 scheme is nice, but there aren't many packages for it and it seems to be very similar 23:16:12 packages in CL are fairly different to packages/modules in other language and often are a source of confusion 23:16:36 spacebat: from what i understood, packages in CL are like namespaces in other languages 23:17:05 I think that's more accurate yes 23:17:58 as for scheme, I'd stick to the largest implementations, PLT scheme is supposed to have quite a few modules 23:18:17 a bit of meta talk: paul graham's article 'beating the averages' has encouraged me to learn CL 23:18:35 although as of now i couldn't find any advantage over, say, haskell, but i'm still learning 23:18:46 it was one of several motivating factors for me 23:18:50 seems like one of the most beloved features are macros, but i'm not there yet 23:19:16 mm_freak: same here. 23:19:24 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6E9D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 23:19:31 the biggest advantage imho is homoiconicity and the ease of working interactively in lisp 23:19:35 mm_freak: but after reading more about CL, I realized my impression of CL and Paul Graham's are very different. 23:19:37 macros are what makes the code-is-data idea come to life 23:19:49 mm_freak: I really think CL is great, and worth learning in detail. 23:20:21 i wouldn't call its design great, but it's elegant 23:21:00 it's pragmatic and for a not-to-small-part "politically" motivated 23:21:06 although the code-is-data idea doesn't convince me a lot, since i've worked extensively with DSLs in haskell, which is about the same thing 23:21:18 danlei: politically? 23:21:39 politically as in: how do I create a standard with wich all major vendors can live 23:21:58 which 23:22:07 does that work in practice? 23:22:14 danlei: answer: Standardize MacLisp and let a couple other vendors have a little say so they can feel a little better about themselves? 23:22:23 :) 23:22:23 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6E9D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:27 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:22:42 well, let's say "all maclisp vendors" :) 23:22:53 :P 23:23:04 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:23:15 mm_freak: code-is-data is useful, but it's abused a lot. 23:25:38 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-82-22.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:25:55 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:26:30 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-132-170-158.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 23:26:38 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:27:05 sykopomp: FP caused me to abuse a lot of things in imperative languages, so that's probably ok =) 23:27:11 jahmarley [n=kenan@78.181.34.222] has joined #lisp 23:27:16 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 23:27:19 I've read that use of eval is usually an abuse, but I like the idea of throwing around sexps between processes 23:27:41 if I want to run a sexp that has been read, then eval is the thing to use am I right? 23:27:46 (defun 1ength3 (1 i s t ) (do ( ( l e n 0 (+ l e n 1 ) ) ; s t a r t with LEN=O, increment 23:27:46 ( 1 l i s t ( r e s t 1 ) ) ) ; ... on each i t e r a t i o n 23:27:46 ((null 1 ) len))) ; ( u n t i l t h e end of t h e 1 i s t ) 23:27:50 ups 23:28:01 sorry that was an accident 23:28:09 looks like one :) 23:28:24 anyway, can anybody help me with this "on each iteration" part 23:28:27 mm_freak: ideally, you'd use higher-order functions when you can, and macros to abstract away boilerplate patterns. 23:28:30 this is from paip 23:28:42 mm_freak: CL is not a very "functional" language, compared to scheme or clojure. (and I like the freedom of a multiparadigmal approach) 23:28:56 jahmarley: paste.lisp.org 23:28:58 jahmarley: try pasting it to http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp 23:29:00 -!- _icecube_ [n=icecube@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:29:48 spacebat: throwing around sexps to execute is probably a bad idea. 23:29:54 I wouldn't trust that at all. 23:30:25 I wouldn't do it without weighing the security implications 23:30:32 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 23:30:57 any thoughts on why lisp eval happens sans lexical environment? 23:31:19 spacebat: joe marshall wrote about that recently 23:31:35 I'll google him up, thanks 23:31:43 spacebat: http://funcall.blogspot.com/ is where he wrote it 23:31:55 jahmarley pasted "length3" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88189 23:32:40 jahmarley: don't use 1 as a variable. and l is not much better. 23:32:41 pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-129-200.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:45 now that is from Paradigms of AI book 23:33:08 jahmarley: i doubt it confused the digit 1 and the letter l 23:33:11 but i didn't understand it (sorry for being that noob) 23:33:39 jahmarley: use a font that better distinguishes between one and ell 23:34:01 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.213.199] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 23:34:42 jeti` [n=jeti@p548EFA08.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:57 only (+ len 1) part is the number "1" the others are "l" characters 23:35:36 -!- jeti [n=jeti@p548EE7C4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:35:36 jahmarley: not in the paste. 23:36:43 -!- p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/session] has quit [K-lined] 23:37:36 jahmarley: the first expression after the do do the following: len is initialized with 0 and gets incremented in every iteration, l is the list passed to the function, every iteration drops an element, then, the last line says: if the list is empty, return len. that's how it works. (and I hate do, btw.) 23:38:33 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-129-200.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:39:14 so, the (len 0 (+ len 1)) roughly translates to for(len = 0; ;len++) 23:39:19 hmm, i see, so this (l list (rest l)) part is not the body of do but the part of the do syntax 23:39:34 that DO has no body. 23:39:52 every is done in the "head" in this case 23:40:03 *everything 23:40:30 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-223-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:59 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:41:51 p_l [i=8b850726@gateway/web/freenode/x-ec546c3dbf1f6ad9] has joined #lisp 23:42:03 danlei: most languages are multiparadigm 23:42:07 ok, in Paradigms of AI there was just the (variable number optional-result) at the head part in do syntax explanation so i couldn't figure out the rest 23:42:14 now i see, thanks 23:42:54 md` [n=md@85-135-233-195.adsl.slovanet.sk] has joined #lisp 23:43:10 mm_freak: some make it easy, some make it hard to use different paradigms. CL makes it, at least in my opinion, very easy. 23:43:54 indeed 23:43:57 -!- ayrnieu [n=_ayrnieu@69.171.164.233] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:44:30 hi, anybody knows which continuation library for CL is of best quality? I mean most used, least known bugs? 23:44:43 but every language has some sort of 'main' paradigm, and IMO for CL it's FP 23:44:43 cl-cont and arnesi I guess 23:45:01 hm 23:45:20 arnesi looks good, but contains a lot of other stuff I don't want to depend on 23:45:36 if FP means: passing functions, using them as arguments, then: yes. if it means: don't use iteration and assignment, then imho: no. 23:45:40 is there an arnesi call/cc separated to standalone library? 23:46:26 *p_l* just loves getting k-lined on freenode 23:47:29 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:47:31 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:47:49 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:49:26 md`: cl-delico 23:51:13 fe[nl]ix: can't find repository for that. got link? 23:51:18 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 23:51:54 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-walker/darcs/cl-delico 23:51:55 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:52:12 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:52:59 ah, thanks! 23:54:06 danlei: i think FP has something to do with composability using functions 23:54:18 that's why we use mapping instead of iteration 23:54:27 ASau [n=user@ppp85-141-215-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:54:57 well, in CL, it's idiomatic to use iteration. sure, we use map, reduce &c, but looping is in general not frowned upon 23:54:59 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:26 danlei: when you get something like LOOP and ITERATE, then no wonder ^_^ 23:55:36 :) 23:55:49 -!- cddr [n=user@5ad962ef.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:55:50 I'd hate to have to do the same using only for/while/until 23:56:34 yet i'm struggling to start coding in lisp =) 23:56:42 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:56:48 i'll explore all the fancy features afterwards 23:57:03 cddr [n=user@5ad962ef.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 23:58:52 mm_freak: don't worry, me too. I'm just probably struggling longer ;-0 23:58:54 *;-)