00:00:51 xach i think the library has Paradigms of AI Programming, will check 00:01:13 One of these days I'm going to end up with a copy of AIMA. 00:01:33 And perhaps I'll even be able to make heads or tails of it. 00:01:40 You may have my copy. 00:01:44 It's the brown edition. 00:01:55 *Xach* never cracked it 00:01:55 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.158.238.36] has quit [] 00:02:16 Xach by Peter Norvig? 00:02:28 they have 2 copies 00:02:37 Xach: How much? And when next will you be at BLM? 00:02:39 Guthur: yes, PAIP by Peter Norvig. I think it is a nice book. 00:02:40 both available, no surprise there hehe 00:02:53 nyef: let me double check that it's still on my bookshelf. i might have sold it already. 00:04:00 Xach AIMA? 00:04:04 Heh. "Kint One, Eat Too at the Library" -- An event yesterday at the Peterborough, NH library. 00:05:00 nyef: I still have it. If you can wait until I head down to Boston again, I'll bring it and you can have it free. Otherwise, let's say $15 to cover shipping and effort. 00:05:01 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:05:18 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 00:05:33 I can certainly wait. Shall we say the price of a beer after the meeting? 00:05:39 ok 00:06:33 Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach? 00:06:46 Guthur: That's the one. 00:06:52 minion: aima? 00:07:18 whoa they have 15 copies of that 00:07:39 8 of the 1st ed 00:08:01 worth checking out, cheers 00:08:31 Guthur: it might be the official textbook for some ML course. 00:08:41 lol there is only one copy on my campus and someone has it 00:08:52 will have to order it 00:10:19 ... Now, if H4ns follows through on his offer of an mX... 00:11:00 lol its recommended reading on my KBS/AI module, should have read that more closely, doh 00:12:23 gonzojive_ [n=red@c-24-4-39-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:29 hmm, i guess 15 is too much for the brown version. amazon would send it for $10. 00:12:30 Hrm... I wonder how much a USB camera that'll do 1080p costs? 00:12:36 its on a super long loan, so i doubt a student has it 00:14:04 at many schools grad students, professors and staff can borrow things as long as they like 00:18:33 -!- nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:18:51 Hunh. "The long-term solution will be to keep a separate thread for finalizers and after-gc hooks." 00:19:52 The other possible uses that spring to mind for such a thing are stack exhaustion and call-in to Lisp on a non-Lisp thread. 00:20:18 (When such a call-in occurs marshal over to the handler-thread and pop the debugger.) 00:20:36 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:20:51 Of course, that leads to the notion of always running the debugger in a separate thread. Hrm. 00:22:39 is there anything wrong with that? 00:23:15 Yes! Mainly that SBCL doesn't -do- it. 00:23:48 Of course, SBCL's interrupt model probably can't handle it well. 00:25:34 -!- milanj- [n=milan@77.46.210.39] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:27:22 (Actually, I don't know if it can or not. I guess the thread state would still be running even if it were stopped for the debugger.) 00:29:04 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2D2F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:29:51 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:25 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:30:51 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:31:19 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest94329 00:31:45 apparently I should have kept my brown AIMA...I just have the green one 00:33:16 -!- Guest94329 is now known as pkhuong 00:33:46 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest52293 00:35:49 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:30 -!- Guest52293 [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:37:45 Heh. And I was given a hard time for grabbing the green dragon book recently. 00:38:10 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:38:15 its a very expensive book as well 00:38:38 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest79919 00:40:15 i think i will just have to borrow it the entire time I am at uni, too many books to read and not enough time, I have to read lots of papers as well 00:41:54 -!- Guest79919 is now known as pkhuong 00:43:30 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441541.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 00:44:17 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441541.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:45:36 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-132-92-40.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 00:50:17 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 00:51:25 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 00:58:10 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:52 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 01:02:29 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A052.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:02:39 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@93-82-15-166.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:04:20 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:45 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 01:06:16 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:23 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 01:07:59 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:15 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 01:10:58 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:28 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 01:11:33 -!- antgreen [n=user@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM0018c0b3c272.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:11:57 RenJuan [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:12:12 -!- RenJuan [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:14:57 nyef: what about Octave in lieu of Matlab? 01:15:55 Maybe. I'm actually considering taking a look at Maxima and otehr stuff. 01:16:27 But my available space on / is down under a gig free, so I'm waiting a bit. 01:16:30 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student167-142.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 01:18:16 raptelan [n=Casey@209.40.204.178] has joined #lisp 01:19:29 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:22:50 -!- Guest65668 is now known as pragma_ 01:29:10 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:29:14 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:42 whoppix_ [n=whoppix@p4FDF4ACB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:26 -!- whoppix_ [n=whoppix@p4FDF4ACB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 01:35:32 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 01:35:32 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:36:01 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:03 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 01:38:39 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:34 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.81.123] has joined #lisp 01:43:26 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 01:43:33 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 01:44:01 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:58 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@p4FDF6A30.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Network is unreachable] 01:45:26 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:48:24 whoppix [n=whoppix@p4FDF4ACB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:03 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@p4FDF4ACB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 01:52:00 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@c-24-4-39-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:55:13 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.158.238.36] has joined #lisp 01:56:31 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:57:03 whoppix [n=whoppix@p4FDF4ACB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:11 dialtone [n=dialtone@98.210.155.172] has joined #lisp 02:01:25 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88.149.208.60] has quit ["Valete!"] 02:02:04 v0|d [n=user@213.232.33.243] has joined #lisp 02:02:40 did i say i love erc restore. 02:03:03 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-60.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 02:03:35 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@76.254.18.170] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:03:43 No, you didn't. 02:03:51 At least, not within my memory. 02:03:59 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-60.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Client Quit] 02:05:14 silent night. 02:06:09 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-60.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 02:08:38 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:10:17 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@p4FDF4ACB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 02:10:38 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-pxpirmpcghpbiwtg] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:11:34 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:54 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 02:13:31 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:15:44 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:16:39 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:06 Foofie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has joined #lisp 02:20:20 Monk1 [n=a@cpe-74-74-140-173.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:23:31 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:26:25 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 02:28:17 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:29:23 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:02 Why do packages all live in the same namespace? (rather than nested) 02:30:19 emacs-dwim: NIL? 02:31:10 At a certain point, because there wasn't originally any need for anything more, and Common Lisp is largely a standardization of existing praxis. 02:31:16 this question has been asked before, and there are some attempts at fixing it 02:31:47 Admittedly, existing praxis a quarter century ago, but existing praxis nonetheless. 02:33:21 Is it a bad idea to use a package-system instead of a filesystem? (using virtual memory objects instead of files) 02:33:41 emacs-dwim: there's already a specification for hierarchical packages: http://www.franz.com/support/documentation/6.1/doc/packages.htm#hier-packs-1 02:33:55 ACL implements it, and I *think* cmucl does, too (sbcl?) 02:34:07 emacs-dwim: and I don't like depending on the filesystem to define packages. 02:34:35 sykopomp: i'm talking about obsoleting the filesystem. 02:34:58 ah 02:37:06 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.218.108] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 02:37:10 Heh. Obsoleting the filesystem? Never happen. 02:37:47 keltor [n=keltor@unaffiliated/keltor] has joined #lisp 02:37:54 -!- keltor [n=keltor@unaffiliated/keltor] has left #lisp 02:37:58 nyef: sure pretend to have one. but isn't it redundant to have the extra layer between data and disk representation? 02:38:19 It is, but that's because it's a cache. 02:38:25 All caches are redundant. 02:38:38 Doesn't mean it's not a useful redundancy. 02:38:45 nyef: How is it a cache? 02:38:52 How is it not? 02:39:35 The authoritative version is on the disk. You can load it into memory, discard it from memory, write a changed version from memory to the disk... That sounds like cache fill, cache flush and cache writeback to me. 02:39:59 * and it's faster to access from memory than from disk. 02:40:08 Oh, right. And that. 02:40:33 Now, the other part is that it's volatile, and the disk isn't nearly so volatile. 02:40:37 Yes, i get the memory caching the disk. But that's the same sans filesystem. 02:40:57 Sure, but if your cache is corrupt you can just blow it out and recover. 02:41:20 And the filesystem gives a very good structure from which to recover from corruption. 02:41:26 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 02:41:31 You're not going to have that with a large-vm abstraction instead. 02:41:45 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:11 Backup/Versioning seems orthoganal to Caching (to me)... 02:42:54 s/orthaganal/orthogonal/ 02:43:12 *emacs-dwim* fails 02:43:16 emacs-dwim: backups and caching are on the same scale, but they're steps in different directions 02:44:11 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 02:44:23 Look, the reason you're not going to get rid of filesystems is purely pragmatic: They're maintainable as -hell-. You can easily recover data from a crashed filesystem due to its regular structure. You can't do so as easily from a crashed VM image. You can massively upgrade and downgrade your VM without losing access to your data. 02:44:59 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:13 Use an object DB for your data? You're going to serialize it in a version-independent fashion or you're going to lose badly. 02:45:34 At that point, it's no longer a perfect match to your VM-native object model, and thus you have a filesystem with a funky index. 02:45:52 nyef: Pertaining to Inodes vs Objects? 02:46:06 Put live code on your OODB and you are even more host with regards to recovery. 02:46:42 Pertaining to direct references to Inodes/ObjIDs instead of filenames. 02:47:10 filename/symbol-names 02:47:10 Next problem is shipping the data between machines. 02:47:29 Not for references to child objects. 02:47:40 -!- obscurious [n=obscurio@c-98-232-244-197.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:47:49 You -will- have objects referenced only by ID. That's part of the point of an OODB. 02:48:14 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-223-75.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 02:48:24 and there are often structures within files too. 02:48:28 Use a relational DBMS? You lose on performance and access for binary blobs, which are a -very- popular data structure. 02:48:39 Sure, not contesting that. 02:48:56 But files are serialized data. You -have- to deal with that. 02:49:02 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.158.238.36] has quit [] 02:49:13 Any method to try and avoid that critical nature loses badly. 02:49:16 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-207.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 02:49:19 Moe111 [n=Moe111@modemcable067.226-21-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:49:20 What is the advantage of serialising? 02:49:33 Hey, crazy idea coming up: 02:49:59 here's a request for comments for making an oss autocad clone based on a lisp backend. 02:49:59 Portability between machines, recoverability when your machine/VM crashes, postmortem analysis, need I go on? 02:50:29 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 02:50:32 I'm actually thinking more specifically of OSX as a platform (using Cocao as the rendering and UI layer) and relegating everything math to lisp 02:50:33 whoppix [n=whoppix@p4FDF4ACB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:51 Moe111: Meaning that the existing open-source CAD software doesn't do what you need, or is it just that a lisp-based CAD system would be "cool"? 02:51:02 nyef: it's easier to analyse without the type info? 02:51:10 emacs-dwim: VMs aren't very reverse engineering-friendly. 02:51:31 *nyef* shudders in memory of some of the crap he's found in VM memory images. 02:51:33 nyef: both. Exisint open source CAD software is *nowhere* as powerful as autocad. And autoCAD also is cool because of its lisp scripting. 02:51:56 Exisint = Existing 02:52:09 Moe111: Okay, now consider -why and how- autocad got to be so powerful. 02:52:10 emacs-dwim: early microsoft word documents were fairly close to heap dumps. I'd say that VM dumps are indeed hard to analyse; they tend to contain a lot of accidental noise. 02:52:30 nyef: because it's used by engineers. and autolisp? 02:52:31 =) 02:52:34 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.81.123] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:53:02 Moe111: Because it's been around for ages and ages and maintained for that entire time. 02:53:02 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:53:03 Monk1: I would think that autocad was successful in spite of autolisp. 02:53:20 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@p4FDF4ACB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 02:54:11 nyef: agreed with that. However, I'll tell you something about that, I once upon a time went for a job interview at Alias Wavefront, at the time makers of The software used by Ford and GM for car modeling. The interviewer admitted to me that the whole thing was a single binary. That it was a programming nightmare. That it took 30 hours to build etc. etc. 02:54:34 *nyef* smirks. 02:54:41 That sounds -familiar-. 02:55:00 the idea I'm putting forward is to have a shell, and then a fully lisp backend. Add useful features OSS style, but create a scaffholding that's elegant enough to promote "good" growth 02:55:02 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:55:16 I've been thinking about this on and off for months, even years now. 02:55:18 *nyef* shakes his head. 02:55:29 The state of CAD software is pitiful 02:55:30 If you have the design, go for it. 02:55:53 alright. so you're on board then, are ya? ;) 02:56:11 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["sudo nmap -A -PN localhost"] 02:56:15 No, of course not. 02:56:16 |pepone| [n=pepone@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 02:56:24 I have sod-all need for CAD software. 02:56:30 heh. I was joking. 02:56:54 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.81.123] has joined #lisp 02:57:00 And I'll probably end up trying to use Blender again the next time I -do- have use for anything of the like. 02:57:02 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 02:57:03 aside from the "this is madness" reaction though, any other commentary? 02:57:14 "this is sparta"? 02:57:23 yes. This IS 02:57:56 speaking of blender though, check out AutoCAD constraints on youtube and you will see how it is light years ahead of the curve on any CAD software out there. 02:58:09 and yet, at the same time, it's still relatively weak. 02:58:10 Find some subpart of the entire space that you can do, and do well, and nail that first. 02:58:26 yes, that would be the basic UI + the core structure 02:58:34 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:58:36 I agree with atht. 02:59:07 So... simplicity in some respect? 02:59:10 I wonder if it'd be of any use to separate the UI and the core like Chrome separates 02:59:16 whoppix [n=whoppix@p4FDF4ACB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:29 pkhuong: nyef: i guess i'm just not getting what the difference is between an Inspector vs a Dired. 02:59:32 Don't tie yourself down to a single target platform. 02:59:51 yes, simplicity. I wonder if anyone has hands on experience in core CAD math 03:00:08 yeah, although I will start with OSX/Cocoa + SBCL 03:00:17 for no other reason than that's what I'm using right now 03:00:32 emacs-dwim: Are you sure that dired isn't an inspector already? 03:00:49 if I were to set a bar for a CAD construction toolkit, which is what you seem to be describing, i'd probably look at catia more than autocad. :) 03:01:13 CATIA? can you tell me why, in a nutshell? 03:01:42 also, if you're going to be working on OSX, clozure comes with an objective-c bridge and cocoa bindings. 03:02:03 Fade: And a Coca-based IDE! 03:02:16 Clozure eh? Was there not another CL-Cocoa project out there? 03:02:16 Speaking of which, I have some code to commit ... 03:02:18 because it already has the kind of modular architecture you're discussing, and it's the cad system used by all the serious mechanical engineers I know. 03:02:20 I am loath of java 03:02:21 Clozure is, indeed, quite nice, although I don't use OSX. 03:02:23 nyef: they seem isomorphic to me. maybe like the labelled branches in version-control vs the intermediary revisions.. 03:03:21 Sorry to pop up to nit-pick, but it's Clozure CL or CCL. The company behind it is Clozure Associates. 03:03:23 Moe111: Yeah, I think it died. The Clozure CL Obj-C bridge has been around for quite a while. Probably at least 2004? 03:03:45 *Fade* wonders if rme is related to rms 03:03:51 lol 03:03:55 rme: what is the issue with calling it Clozure?... 03:04:04 nitpicking about irc shorthand is silly. 03:04:08 sykopomp: what is the issue with calling it CMU? 03:04:23 sykopomp: It could be confused with the british boy band of the same name. 03:04:34 the ccl manual refers to it as 'clozure' too. 03:04:36 so, idk. 03:04:48 Adlai: I don't know, I've seen cmu used in conversation :) 03:05:01 Fade: I think that settles it. 03:05:06 The half dozen Clozure/Clojure/Closure variants are quite confusing; Moe111 just mistook it for Clojure (the jvm-based lisp dialect). 03:05:10 jebus christ. I'm looking at some CATIA tutorials on youtube, and I am just BAFFLED at how un streamlined the UIs for engineering are. It's like it's made for people who are used to clunking machinery 03:05:19 ... Note self: Look into what clozure does for thread-sync and interrupts on win32... if, indeed, they do threading on win32. 03:05:26 If the CCL manual refers to the lisp as just Clozure, please point it out so I can change it. 03:05:34 rme: blame the stupid lisp wannabee for the conclusion, not Clozure. 03:05:39 eurgh 03:05:51 that's enough irc for me today. night folks 03:05:53 rme: interesting, I sure did 03:06:05 night 03:06:10 03:07:41 sykopomp: wow -- allegro-cl uses "comprises" correctly! hoorah! 03:08:39 funny stuff. It reminds me of the time I went to get some CNC cuts done at a mill and the floor technician had come into the office with his hard hat and large gloves and started using AutoCAD to adjust the drawings.... 03:08:42 very different world 03:09:09 nyef: ccl does threading on win32. Most of the code would be in ccl:lisp-kernel;x86-exceptions.c (I didn't write it, btw.) 03:09:58 rme: does it thread on x64 windows, too? 03:10:01 Cool. Thanks. 03:10:21 Ugh. x64 and its exception-handling disast^Wrules. 03:10:31 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp019.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:10:45 sykopomp: yes, threads on 64-bit Windows too 03:13:25 How'd you manage to interface with x86 exception-handling? 03:13:31 man. Sometimes I wish I still had my youthful exuberance. After a decade of programming, taking on any project seems full of dread instead of promise =) 03:14:21 Moe111: exuberance = ignorance? naiveté? delusions of immortality? 03:14:22 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@p4FDF4ACB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 03:14:30 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:14:30 -!- charliekilo [n=ck@24.144.224.87] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:14:30 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:14:30 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:14:30 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76.10.149.209] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:14:30 -!- pjb [n=t@85.169.63.25] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:14:30 -!- h3r3tic [n=heretic@86.3.27.232] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:14:30 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84.217.3.180] has 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[n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:41 h3r3tic [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 03:14:41 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 03:14:43 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 03:14:43 ck [n=ck@24.144.224.87] has joined #lisp 03:14:46 kooll [n=samson_t@sd-10510.dedibox.fr] has joined #lisp 03:14:51 sykopomp: why or when you can and all of those 03:14:53 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:55 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 03:14:56 fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 03:14:59 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 03:15:05 -!- ck is now known as Guest86683 03:15:07 nyef: sorry, not sure what you mean. 03:15:08 Ah, right, completely different runtime model. 03:15:09 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:15:20 timchen1` [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has joined #lisp 03:15:22 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 03:15:51 meaning: ignorance, naiveté and delusions of immortality 03:16:49 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 03:16:55 sykopomp: although, I will say that the most important thing I've learned that makes me think this way is that software is more determined by the business side of things than by the technical aspect. 03:16:58 Windows x64 has this stack-walking backtrace thing associated with their exception system, and it uses a table-based system similar to other unwind systems, but the table format is far more restricted than Dwarf2 provides, so they limited a bunch of stuff with function prologue and epilogue, and you still need the tables for all native-code function segments... 03:17:13 I've seen many an awesome product languish for no other reason than business/marketing. 03:17:35 -!- rlonstei1 is now known as rlonstein 03:17:45 cddr [n=user@5ad962ef.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 03:18:30 Taggnostr2 [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 03:18:49 I'm dreading simultaneously the GC changes, the calling-convention changes, and the just plain debug-info changes required to make even the basics work, let alone being able to take advantage of it for things like cheaper handler-bind or restart establishment. 03:19:08 Oh, and cheaper binding in general. 03:19:18 (No separate bindstack? I could do with that.) 03:19:30 erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 03:20:38 -!- Taggnostr2 [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 03:21:11 whoppix [n=whoppix@p4FDF4ACB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:36 anyone know of a push to use OpenCL in lisp? 03:22:54 nope. 03:23:09 -!- pjb` [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:23:12 pjb` [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 03:25:04 Ahh... A -vectored- handler. So that's the trick. 03:26:11 Well, the first trick, at least. 03:29:51 esnk [n=user@nat/ibm/x-qqcrhonnaqohbpxv] has joined #lisp 03:30:12 Fade: "It has been announced that Catia V6 will only be supported on one proprietary operating system." That's interesting. 03:31:07 OpenVMS 4.2? 03:31:32 -!- |pepone| [n=pepone@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit ["KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: 3437, sources date: 20090703, built on: 2009/09/09 21:03:17 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/"] 03:31:54 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-10-196.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:32:07 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-10-196.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:35:12 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has quit [No buffer space available] 03:42:50 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:50:57 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:31 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 03:55:17 spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-64-90-104.hvc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:56:07 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-64-90-104.hvc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:56:10 spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-64-90-104.hvc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:56:27 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-64-90-104.hvc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:56:48 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-240-054.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:06 Good morning! 03:58:06 Hello beach. 03:58:15 ... It's midnight again, isn't it? 03:58:24 nyef: Could be, yes. 03:58:36 What I get for getting distracted. 03:58:36 hah! 03:58:54 Oh well, so much for getting up early tomorrow. 03:59:13 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@p4FDF4ACB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:00:04 You can still do that. 04:00:32 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:00:53 whoppix [n=whoppix@p4FDF4ACB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:57 True, I'm just unlikely to. 04:01:36 -!- pepone [n=pepone@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit ["KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: 3437, sources date: 20090703, built on: 2009/09/09 21:03:17 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/"] 04:03:29 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 04:05:46 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@modemcable067.226-21-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 04:07:17 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:55 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"] 04:12:38 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-243-087.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:13:22 -!- rapacity_ is now known as rapacity 04:17:28 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 04:19:58 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 04:22:18 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 04:22:49 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:22:50 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 04:26:24 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:44 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit ["probably back soon?"] 04:29:46 Tordek_ [n=tordek@186.124.160.163] has joined #lisp 04:30:19 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-14-25.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 04:30:40 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student167-142.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 04:30:43 redblue [i=star@ppp096.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:31:15 jlf [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 04:31:47 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-10-196.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:32:49 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:33:29 -!- itze [n=itze@77-22-106-8-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:33:29 -!- sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:33:29 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-4ae470d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:33:29 -!- frodef [n=ffj@226.80-202-87.nextgentel.com] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:33:29 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:33:29 -!- mle [n=emily@kuu.accela.net] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:33:29 -!- p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:33:29 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:33:29 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:33:29 -!- housel [n=nhousel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:33:29 -!- albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:35:00 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-18-170.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:23 Is there a way to tell SLIME to reevaluate a DEFVAR as if the variable was unbound? 04:35:41 mikezor [n=mikael@c-4ae470d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 04:36:00 albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #lisp 04:36:14 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 04:36:34 Temporarily change it to defparameter and evaluate that? Or just slime-eval (makunbound 'whatever)? 04:36:45 nyef: yeah, I was hoping for something more automati. 04:36:46 c. 04:37:23 Well, those are the obvious methods. There might be something more direct, but I don't know of anything offhand. 04:38:03 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:38:34 C-M-x 04:38:55 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:59 Hunh. Neat. 04:40:08 slime-re-evaluate-defvar, huh? 04:40:14 pkhuong: thanks. 04:40:34 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student167-142.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 04:41:07 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:41:10 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@p4FDF4ACB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:41:25 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:42:37 whoppix [n=whoppix@p4FDF4ACB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:42 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student167-142.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 04:44:48 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host126.190-227-41.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:46:59 *_3b* wonders how the 'autocad constraints' stuff moe111 was talking about being 'light years ahead' compares to what sketchpad did in '63 04:47:21 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Client Quit] 04:47:30 <_3b> (aside from lacking the cool lightpen-and-toggle-switches interfaces that is) 04:47:42 sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 04:47:57 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:48:03 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student167-142.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 04:48:36 housel [n=nnhousel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 04:48:42 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 04:50:15 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:50:17 So... How about using a cintiq with it, which should at least sub out for the lightpen? 04:51:15 pkhuong: is there a way to recompile a whole file with all DEFVARs treated as unbound? 04:51:53 gigamonkey: don't think so. 04:56:27 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:29 -!- dmiles [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:56:40 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Absquatulandus sum"] 04:56:40 <_3b> nyef: yeah, that would probably almost be good enough 04:56:58 emmy [n=em@cpe-98-14-154-71.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:57:03 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 04:57:31 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:07:15 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-140-18.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:08:15 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:08:30 -!- Guest86683 [n=ck@24.144.224.87] has quit [] 05:10:03 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 05:11:31 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:14:59 -!- ska` [n=user@ppp-58-8-129-74.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:21:58 i am certainly sure the standard contains a function equivalent to basename, just can't find it 05:23:16 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:23:29 file-namestring does something like that but it's a bit quirky 05:25:07 (defun basename (path-string) (file-namestring (string-right-trim "/" path-string))) 05:29:36 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 05:34:03 I am trying to signal a file-error-pathname condition from my code but i can't find that condition specified anywhere; does it have any slots or is a skeleton that i should be wrapping myself? 05:34:33 -!- jlf [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:36:47 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-18-170.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:38:46 never mind, file-error-pathname is the accessor for the pathname argument of the file-error condition 05:39:11 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:39:18 cppiii [n=chatzill@221.126.3.81] has joined #lisp 05:40:13 does 'a mean "a" ? 05:40:52 no 05:40:54 no 05:41:11 'a is a quote symbol "a" is a string one element, the character #\a 05:41:55 cppiii: but (string-equalp (symbol-name 'a) "a") :-) 05:43:41 um... but does '(a b c) mean a list (a b c) ? 05:44:13 no, '(a b c) is a short cut for (quote a b c) 05:44:50 leave quote alone for now, and just use (list a b c) assuming a, b, and c are bound 05:44:51 fusss: no 05:45:06 '(a b c) is short for (quote (a b c)) 05:45:17 good point adlai :-) 05:45:28 which gives a list that's EQUAL to what (list 'a 'b 'c) gives 05:45:49 so what is the type of 'a ? no type ? 05:46:02 cppiii: 'a is (quote a) 05:46:11 cppiii: it's a symbol 05:46:12 the -result-, in *that* case, is a symbol. 05:46:23 think of quote as "Switch to code-as-data" 05:49:07 OK, thanks all 05:50:05 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.83] has joined #lisp 05:50:40 cppiii: you can always do (type-of ) in the repl :-) 05:51:56 cppiii: type-of and class-of will come very handy. also remember that * is the last computed value, so you don't have to type elaborate expressions again or edit the repl history to experiment. 05:52:47 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-0-199.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:39 Adlai` [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 05:55:03 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:55:04 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 05:56:56 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-18-170.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:57 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 06:02:16 if I have a handler-case with a clause that doesn't exactly handle the condition, just logs it, if i want to resignal the condition do i need to (signal 'condition ..) it again or is there some other way? 06:02:39 fusss: you need to use a handler-bind 06:02:56 and then you pass a lambda which does whatever logging, etc, and returns normally 06:03:06 the condition system will take over again and continue signalling the condition 06:03:26 Adlai, you bloody genius! 06:03:28 :-D 06:04:08 i have been abusing the generic dispatch for control for so long, i forgot about explicit control handling 06:04:31 fusss: I know, right? The secret is lots of failure and C-c C-d h 06:04:59 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 06:05:21 handler-bind is very powerful, especially if you consider that you can use practically any one-argument function as a handler 06:07:25 so for example, you could (defun log-condition (c) ...) and then (handler-bind ((condition #'log-condition)) ...) 06:08:37 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:08:46 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 06:14:00 -!- Monk1 [n=a@cpe-74-74-140-173.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [] 06:14:00 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.83] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:15:00 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:16:10 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:17:55 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@p4FDF4ACB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:19:36 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-140-18.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:20:38 whoppix [n=whoppix@p4FDF4ACB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:06 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:28:11 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-18-170.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 105 (No buffer space available)] 06:29:58 cppiii_ [n=chatzill@221.126.3.119] has joined #lisp 06:30:35 -!- cppiii_ [n=chatzill@221.126.3.119] has quit [Client Quit] 06:31:32 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 06:34:12 splittist [n=dmurray@85.4.220.156] has joined #lisp 06:34:14 morning 06:36:08 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.16.238] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:37:02 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-0-199.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:37:30 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:41:30 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-0-199.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:13 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-206-10-94.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:43:39 hello 06:46:33 hello splittist 06:46:35 hello mrSpec 06:47:04 -!- cppiii [n=chatzill@221.126.3.81] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:50:33 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:55:28 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-70-226-85-68.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:03:19 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 07:08:30 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.81.123] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:15:37 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:18:27 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:23:48 shrewd [n=arn@220.253-201-205.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:24:02 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 07:24:28 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:24:31 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 07:30:38 kingless [n=user@adsl-150-138-128.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:12 exuse my very newness, how do i string statments / predicates together with an "and" in lisp? 07:32:40 (and 1 2 3) => 3 07:32:49 (and 1 nil 3) => NIL 07:33:04 thanks! 07:33:05 shrewd: clhs and 07:33:13 clhs and 07:33:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_and.htm 07:33:29 i don't understand the 3 bit 07:33:34 shrewd: no problem. 07:33:49 is it ignored? 07:33:58 depends. Do you ignore it? 07:34:12 lisp is mind bending :S 07:34:17 non-nil  t 07:34:30 shrewd: no, it still counts. The documentation above explains it. 07:34:31 (the link from specbot) 07:34:35 KingNato_ [n=patno@84-217-5-213.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:12 so and checks all list items if they're nil and returns "something" if they're all not nil and nil if any of them are nil? 07:35:32 returns the last value if none are nil, I believe. 07:35:57 shrewd: that's almost correct. What Ralith said is also almost correct. 07:36:18 AND will return either NIL, or all the values of the last form. 07:36:19 almost eh? almost enough for me to rely on? 07:36:40 oh, so if its a list it will return all of the values? 07:36:54 (and 1 2 (3 4)) => 3 4 ? 07:36:54 clhs values 07:36:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_values.htm 07:36:57 (and 1 2 3 (values 4 5 6)) 07:37:15 But that's going into pedantland 07:37:28 i think i have it 07:37:50 Adlai? pendantic? never :D 07:38:47 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:38:54 i assume there is also an "or" ? 07:39:10 shrewd: ask specbot 07:39:41 -!- KingNato [n=patno@84-217-3-180.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:39:42 -!- KingNato_ is now known as KingNato 07:40:04 St0rmMolest [n=St0rmMol@c83-251-37-177.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 07:41:02 clhs or 07:41:02 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_or.htm 07:43:05 by the way, that spec has a glossary and indices, there are search engines for CL documentation, and there's also a great book that covers all this basic stuff (and much more). 07:45:07 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@85.4.220.156] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:48:51 -!- roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 07:50:43 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 07:56:28 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.83] has joined #lisp 07:57:20 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:58:12 ejs [n=eugen@156-44-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:48 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 07:58:53 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:59:31 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:19 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:03:36 ASau` 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[i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-hvlepktjfmmcoyjf] has quit [K-lined] 08:58:42 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 08:59:19 -!- KingNato [n=patno@84-217-5-213.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:00:08 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:43 -!- leadnose [i=leadnose@xob.kapsi.fi] has left #lisp 09:01:05 shrewd [n=arn@220-253-108-211.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:01:09 any good quick and easy lisp ide's on linux? 09:01:31 just something that will help make neatish code, highlight etc? 09:01:40 <_3b> slime is the popular choice here 09:02:43 <_3b> people allergic to emacs sometimes use eclispe+cusp, or try to hack vim into something useful 09:02:46 shrewd: as said, most folks use slime in emacs 09:04:49 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229143209.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:04:51 i've used cat a few times.. no extraneous features and makes you think before you type 09:04:57 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 09:08:08 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:08:08 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:08:31 So, looking to try my hand again at some gui coding... I think I want to go the qt route, but it seems now that cl-smoke is a lot more mature than when I first looked in this direction... 09:08:43 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:08:48 So: commonqt or cl-smoke? Is there a winner yet? Or do they do different things? 09:09:00 Or, maybe some other one I haven't found? 09:10:30 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 09:10:46 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:32 <_3b> last i heard smoke was in the lead 09:12:01 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 09:12:03 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:12:54 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:13:24 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:14:21 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:14:31 lispm [n=joswig@f054052076.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:16:35 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 09:17:12 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:37 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:17:59 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:21:37 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 09:23:21 -!- kingless [n=user@adsl-150-138-128.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:23:28 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:24:50 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:25:19 shrewd1 [n=arn@220-253-158-245.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:28:07 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:28:36 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:29:04 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp096.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:29:30 -!- shrewd [n=arn@220-253-108-211.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:29:44 angel_ [n=angel@221.223.122.219] has joined #lisp 09:29:52 redblue [i=star@ppp058.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 09:30:59 how can i find the all load-path, the tool i used is GNU CLISP 09:31:05 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:31:29 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:32:12 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:32:14 <_3b> angel_: not sure what you mean, maybe *default-pathname-defaults* or asdf:*central-registry* ? 09:33:39 <_3b> or maybe CUSTOM:*LOAD-PATHS* 09:34:18 the default load-path in slime is: CL-USER> custom:*load-paths* 09:34:19 (#P"./" "~/lisp/**/") 09:34:22 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16841F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:34:57 how can i use third-part library 09:34:58 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:35:17 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:35:24 <_3b> if you mean a lisp library, probably with asdf 09:35:43 i install asdf library (like cl-ppcre)to /usr/...., how i can use ti ? 09:35:49 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 09:36:14 yeah, the asdf is not in the default load-path, but why i can use it ? 09:36:42 sepult``` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-83.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:36:47 <_3b> first you need ASDF loaded, possibly with (require 'asdf) or loading it directly with LOAD 09:37:17 <_3b> then you need to add whatever directory you installed things into to asdf:*central-registry* 09:38:21 <_3b> usually with asdf on posix systems, you have a single directory that you put on asdf:*central-registry*, then in that directory, you put symlinks to the .asd files from the projects you install 09:38:31 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 09:39:04 but if i want to use cl-ppcre, how can i do in a a.lisp file but not slime 09:39:06 <_3b> alternately, you can put the directory for each project you install onto asdf:*central-registry*, or set up a function to search subdirectories for the .asd files 09:39:28 <_3b> can you load cl-ppcre from slime? 09:40:21 yes 09:40:24 CL-USER> (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op 'cl-ppcre) 09:40:38 0 errors, 0 warnings 09:40:38 NIL 09:40:38 CL-USER> 09:41:03 i want use cl-ppcre in my a.lisp file 09:41:43 mnl [n=mnl@vwthunderstorm.de] has joined #lisp 09:41:57 [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.85.100] has joined #lisp 09:42:02 <_3b> ok, how do you want to load/use the a.lisp file? 09:42:34 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 09:42:34 <_3b> the general solution is to make a .asd file for your project, which specifies a dependency on cl-ppcre, then use that to load your project and everything it depends on 09:43:11 <_3b> for the simple solution with just one file, you can put the asdf command to load cl-ppcre in an EVAL-WHEN at the beginning of your lisp file 09:43:18 you can add #.(null (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op 'cl-ppcre)) and (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op 'cl-ppcre)) 09:43:41 <_3b> yeah, like that :) 09:44:15 there should be :read-toplevel 09:44:31 thanks a lot, i try it 09:44:37 *_3b* not sure you need both the eval-when and #. versions though 09:45:32 thanks all 09:46:13 phao [n=phao@20158148119.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 09:46:34 -!- phao [n=phao@20158148119.user.veloxzone.com.br] has left #lisp 09:47:38 why i can use asdf but it's not in defualt load-paths?? 09:47:40 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-30.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 09:48:47 -!- sytse_ is now known as sytse 09:48:53 *stassats* can't remember why he needed both #. and eval-when 09:50:13 -!- angel_ [n=angel@221.223.122.219] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:50:31 oh, #+sbcl(progn (eval-when ...) and the rest of code) 09:51:29 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:51:54 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:52:31 -!- sepult`` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-121-32.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:54:28 making two separate #+sbcl is better 09:54:38 -!- sepult``` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-83.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 09:57:51 sup 09:58:09 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:58:10 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:58:29 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:00:55 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:02:23 _3b: ah, thanks... wonder if it's easier to install these days (as I remember that was actually the main reason I went with commonqt) 10:03:30 <_3b> thijso: dunno, just repeating what i read on #lisp :) 10:03:43 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-206-121-62.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:04:01 <_3b> thijso: apparently there are .asd files available separately or something which might help with that 10:04:43 right. I'll go take a look 10:06:02 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@p4FDF4ACB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 10:06:22 whoppix [n=whoppix@p4FDF4ACB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:45 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-83.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:10:10 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:13:23 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:13:37 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:19:01 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:19:15 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:22:52 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:53 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:26:36 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:28:42 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:29:41 shrewd2 [n=arn@220-253-46-113.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:30:08 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:31:31 -!- cow-orke1 is now known as cow-orker 10:31:32 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:31:51 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:36:25 -!- mnl [n=mnl@vwthunderstorm.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:37:56 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:37:57 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:38:41 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:39:53 hey guys, i can't figure out why this little bit fails, it's part of a cond set of statements 10:39:55 (equal (nth 0 L) '()) 10:40:22 i want to check if the first part of L is nil 10:40:35 why not just (null (car list)) ? 10:40:45 or FIRST, if you prefer 10:41:42 salva [n=salva@2.23.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 10:41:42 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:41:44 it's the same, it shouldn't fail, unless you are feeding it non-list 10:41:52 ok... 10:42:14 just for reference, did you mean (null (first list)) when you said first? 10:42:15 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:42:24 yes 10:42:24 or something completely different 10:42:29 ta thankyou v m 10:43:10 splittist [n=dmurray@85.4.220.156] has joined #lisp 10:43:12 re 10:44:35 hmm my problem must have been my cond statement 10:44:36 -!- lispm [n=joswig@f054052076.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:44:37 -!- shrewd1 [n=arn@220-253-158-245.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:44:58 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-11-230.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:45:15 paste it to lisppaste? 10:45:20 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-132-92-40.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:45:31 bots are resting? 10:45:43 clhs + 10:45:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_pl.htm 10:45:47 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 10:46:32 -!- St0rmMolest [n=St0rmMol@c83-251-37-177.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:46:47 i think i've got something working now but if it turns out i'm wrong i will lispaste thanks :) 10:50:42 alright i'm a little out of my depth 10:50:45 http://paste.lisp.org/display/88094 10:50:50 what i want to do is simple 10:51:17 shrewd2: this cond is ok. What's the problem? 10:51:22 check if the first part of L is null, if it is return null 10:51:33 mnl [n=mnl@dslb-088-072-164-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:40 That's what it doesn. 10:51:44 What's the problem? 10:51:59 well i was just confused 10:52:09 atm if i enter something non null it still returns null 10:52:18 Notice that it will return nil also when the first element of the list is nil. 10:52:25 emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-11-230.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:52:35 That's because you have only one cond branch. 10:53:00 What's the inverse of #'split-sequence? 10:53:00 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:53:03 lispm [n=joswig@e177144233.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:53:10 ok, if its not nill, i want to do something your saying i need another cond branch to check again? 10:53:25 shrewd2: your test could be T. 10:53:30 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:53:30 emacs-dwim: join. 10:53:46 emacs-dwim: several implementations have been published on cll. 10:54:41 ok then trying to understand the flow of the code, if the condition is true it returns nill and we leave the function? so i can continue writing afterwards? 10:54:53 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:54:57 and assume it has not found nill 10:55:12 shrewd2: (cond (c1 e1...) (c2 e2...) ... (cn en...)) 10:55:31 Here you have only one (c1 e1...) ; you could add one to say what happens when c1 is false. 10:55:42 so it will leave the function on the first true condition or does it keep going? 10:56:01 It will leave the cond on the first true condition, yes. 10:56:13 clhs cond 10:56:14 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_cond.htm 10:56:20 -!- Maddas [n=mz@74.125.121.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:56:23 Maddas [n=mz@74.125.121.33] has joined #lisp 10:58:00 thanks pjb your a real help 10:59:34 shrewd2: notice that if that's all your function does, you don't need the cond. (defun mvar (l) (not (null (first l)))) 11:00:10 well i need to return nil if its nil else i need to perform an action on the list 11:00:23 ok. Then cond is what you want. 11:00:23 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:00:25 i'm still trying to figure out how that kind of thing happens in lisp 11:00:28 oh sweet 11:00:34 i was worried i was off track 11:00:37 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:00:39 (cond ((null l) '()) (t (do-something-else))) 11:00:49 (cond ((null (first l)) '()) (t (do-something-else))) 11:00:54 does anyone of you know if it's po^ssible to create statically linked binaries using sbcl's save-lisp-and-die? 11:00:55 thanks, you've given me more confidence 11:01:04 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:02:12 does append append to the start of a list or the end of it? 11:02:29 nm i'm sure i can google, i'm becomming too dependent on this awesome room 11:02:47 far better than any other language i've tried to learn 11:03:16 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 11:03:19 would when not be better than those cond, more intutitive maybe 11:04:27 c|mell [n=cmell@118.43.201.120] has joined #lisp 11:04:44 *intuitive 11:05:16 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:05:19 -!- salva [n=salva@2.23.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 11:05:46 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:06:29 Guthur: it would not. 11:06:58 Guthur: "intuitive" means "whatever i was already used to" 11:07:31 -!- HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:08:28 mnl_ [n=mnl@dslb-088-072-164-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:15 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:39 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["leaving"] 11:11:14 xach not necessarily you might be writing code others will see 11:12:05 -!- mnl_ [n=mnl@dslb-088-072-164-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:12:20 mnl_ [n=mnl@dslb-088-072-164-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:50 intuitive is usual aimed more generally I would have thought, but its not a biggy, but for only one condition and only positive execution then 'when' seems to fit better 11:13:04 -!- mnl [n=mnl@dslb-088-072-164-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 105 (No buffer space available)] 11:13:44 shrewd2: it is better to use cons to prepend, than to use append. cons is O(1) append is O(N). 11:14:28 shrewd1 [n=arn@220-253-158-60.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:15:21 shrewd2: you can also use list* to prepend several elements at once: (let ((old-list (list 4 5 6))) (list* 1 2 3 old-list)) --> (1 2 3 4 5 6) 11:18:56 pjb`: thanks 11:19:24 p0a [n=user@athedsl-378538.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 11:20:12 Hello I am reading the free chapters of Let Over Lambda and I noticed SHARP-QUOTE-DOUBLE doesn't work as claimed. 11:20:21 In particular here's the behavior on slime and sbcl: 11:20:21 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:20:49 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:21:22 I compile and load the file containing the code normally (no errors/warnings), and then type #"foo"bar"#, but only gets me to the next line which means the reader still waits for a ". 11:21:34 Although #"foo"# evaluates to "foo". 11:21:46 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 11:21:52 hi p0a, the first few chapters of that book need proofreading and aren't very good -- but hidden chapters are actually quite interesting 11:22:03 <_3b> you probably need to set the macro character again 11:22:45 *_3b* doesn't remember if readtables are reset around LOADs or not 11:22:55 hi. in ABCL, there's the option to define a SETF function like this (defun (SETF X) ...) 11:23:07 _3b: nope 11:23:16 same behavior for that 11:23:19 according to CLHS, each DEFUN implies a named block around the body 11:23:42 BUT, BLOCK accepts only a SYMBOL argument as its identifier. 11:23:51 <_3b> p0a: ah, i guess you said it partially worked, i missed that part 11:23:51 however, (SETF X) is a cons. 11:24:01 St0rmMolest [n=St0rmMol@c83-251-37-177.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:24:02 c|mell: I want to buy the book and I probably will 11:24:07 what should be the name of the block for SETF functions? 11:24:31 c|mell: but I wanted to figure whether this is a bug in my implementation, a problem in the book or an oversight on my part 11:24:40 _3b: yep 11:24:52 <_3b> clhs function block name 11:24:59 Wizzup [n=puzziw@82.92.130.193] has joined #lisp 11:25:03 <_3b> hmm, guess it doesn't do glossary.... 11:25:20 <_3b> ehu`: click the 'function block name' link in the defun page 11:25:21 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:25:56 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:26:32 ah! 11:26:33 thanks! 11:27:20 <_3b> c|mell: oh yeah, since you are here... tpd2 doesn't compile with current parenscript, ps:doeach got renamed to ps:for-in apparently 11:29:35 though reading some #lisp logs some people do not recommend LoL. 11:29:36 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:29:39 hi _3b, well i'm happy to patch it; just catching up on email :) -- tpd2 comes with its own version of parenscript 11:30:36 p0a, it's a cool book with interesting ideas but definitely to be read only *after* you are comfortable with lisp 11:30:43 -!- shrewd2 [n=arn@220-253-46-113.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:31:58 <_3b> c|mell: yeah, not a big problem, just thought i'd mention it :) 11:32:02 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:32:06 I found the problem 11:32:10 p0a, maybe it's slime interacting with slime 11:32:11 It's in teh listener (slime) 11:32:17 c|mell: right :-) 11:32:34 <_3b> yeah, slime conflicting with the read macro was my guess too 11:32:34 yes i was typing as you found the problem and wanted to scoop you 11:32:50 _icecube_ [n=icecube@p549C6B46.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:57 :P 11:33:43 <_3b> that sort of thing is one reason i think editor should be responsible for that stuff instead of language impl :p 11:34:11 <_3b> all this nice metaprogramming, and we can't use it since the tools don't know about it :( 11:35:16 _3b: that's why we should write a lisp os 11:35:42 <_3b> nah, better to write the tools first 11:36:03 that's what gnu said 11:37:08 I'm still a newbie but projects like movitz seem really intriguing. I'd want to contribute or at least get to use something liek that. 11:37:43 <_3b> yeah, interesting projects, just pretty low on my priority list (feel free to prioritize your work differently though) 11:38:08 <_3b> not like i'm anywhere near having time to even work on editor level stuff anyway :p 11:38:54 _3b, thanks for bringing that parenscript thing up; it seems my tpd email was not about that after all :) 11:38:57 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:40:01 -!- djinni`` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:40:12 djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:25 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:40:53 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:42:41 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:43:08 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:43:31 -!- shrewd1 [n=arn@220-253-158-60.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:44:34 no_mind_ [n=orion@122.162.255.121] has joined #lisp 11:44:58 -!- no_mind_ is now known as no_mind 11:45:28 for web development, should one use hunchentoot or mod_lisp ? 11:45:30 shrewd1 [n=arn@220.253-235-128.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:45:42 hunchentoot 11:45:57 definitely hunchentoot 11:46:05 no_mind: http://xach.livejournal.com/144475.html has some info 11:46:11 unless you want to use apache for some reason 11:46:16 for some reason this little piece of code gives me an error can anyone see why? 11:46:17 http://paste.lisp.org/display/88094#1 11:46:22 p0a: I use ht with apache 11:46:24 you can use apache and mod_proxy 11:46:31 antifuchs: didn't know this is possible 11:46:36 shrewd1: You might want to mention the error. 11:46:54 p0a: I guess you should check out xach's link, too (: 11:46:57 shrewd1: what's this? 11:47:22 the second piece of code 11:47:27 shrewd1: (T) is not going to work 11:47:34 ends within an object. Last opening parenthesis probably in line 48. 11:47:37 it tries to call T as a function 11:47:46 i just want it to be true 11:47:50 T wrong eh? 11:47:56 then use just T 11:47:56 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:47:57 not (T) 11:48:09 ohhh right thanks! 11:48:16 (very new) 11:48:31 T evaluates to T which is true; (T) is an error because there's no function named T. 11:48:36 shrewd1: (expr1 code1) (expr2 code2) etc. expr can be any lisp expression. The "default" clause is (t code-default) 11:49:00 shrewd1: only by a convenience. ((not nil) code-default) is valid too for example. 11:49:03 the conditions in cond branches are expressions, so you can easily test the conditions by evaluating them on the repl 11:49:05 i want that function to return a list that is built in make-state 11:49:42 i still get the same error it seems :S 11:50:20 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:50:58 hey no_mind, for simple fast and easy web development let me recommend teepeedee2 :) 11:51:08 shrewd1: please post your complete code 11:51:20 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:51:35 I need something which doesnt have a learning curve. I need to code a quick prototype in next few hours. 11:51:48 http://paste.lisp.org/display/88094#3 11:52:14 no_mind: you can pretend your functions receive web arguments and continue from there I guess. 11:52:35 shrewd1: you're missing a closing parenthesis. 11:52:42 shrewd1: what editor are you using and why are you writing your code like that? 11:52:46 shrewd1: at this point, you should be adviced to use emacs. 11:52:48 no_mind: PowerPoint with screenshots works well for that. 11:53:27 sellout, I need to generate the thml page come what may 11:53:27 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:53:31 pjb hahaha yeah i didn't want to be learning lisp and emacs at the same time i was afraid 11:53:33 shrewd1: you still do the same mistake, you didn't change (T). 11:53:49 shrewd1: Learn emacs first, then learn common lisp 11:54:00 annotation number 3 11:54:07 saw it, you do the same mistake 11:54:07 shrewd1: And your code still contains tabs and orphan close-parens. 11:54:09 i removed the (T) and put T 11:54:30 shrewd1: sorry, I was looking at a former annotation then 11:54:58 shrewd1 once you get emacs and slime set up you can just get the basics and start coding 11:55:04 Okay, then what pjb said: you're missing a parenthesis 11:55:12 i apt got slime and emacs, how do i load up slime in emacs? 11:55:13 Penggu [n=me@222.96.96.58.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #lisp 11:55:13 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:55:14 i will give it a go 11:55:15 shrewd1 thats what i did, there is a cheat sheet to 11:55:20 2 secs 11:55:30 -!- mnl_ [n=mnl@dslb-088-072-164-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 105 (No buffer space available)] 11:55:32 Actually that's a bad suggestion Guthur 11:55:47 it's best if he spends some time learning emacs and then move to common lisp and slime 11:55:47 p0a works for me 11:55:50 hi all. i want to do this: (print "msg") (do and return soemthing) (print "msg2") .. but i want the "return something" to be returned. any ideas? 11:55:54 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:56:04 Guthur: would you say your knowledge of emacs is sufficient? 11:56:13 nope 11:56:14 Penggu: prog1 11:56:19 or prog2 11:56:22 Penggu, prog1 (or better multiple-value-prog1) 11:56:29 Guthur: right... then stop doing what you're doing and learn some emacs :-P 11:56:30 p0a but practice is the best learning method 11:56:31 np thanks 11:56:33 ill look it up 11:56:39 and how do i practice if i have nothing to do 11:56:57 there are tutorials 11:56:58 its not like i use emacs for anything other than coding 11:57:01 how do i get slime up and running? 11:57:02 Guthur: you practice when you know how to find help for the unknown. That requires knowing _some_ emacs 11:57:22 shrewd1: google for slime manual. 11:57:26 thanks 11:57:26 Because, if you stumble upon a problem which you don't know how to solve then clearly practice is not going to help you. Using C-h ? will. 11:57:40 i can flip between buffers open files save, though i forgot how to mark 11:57:47 C-space 11:57:56 but it works, hehe 11:58:30 Because I've been where you've been is why I'm trying to persuade you into learning omre about emacs. Yes, you get that 'everything I need is here' feeling, but learning more will improve your work 11:58:55 a lot. this is a bit OT anyway, I'll be afk... 11:59:12 shrewd1 www.cs.rochester.edu/~cgomez/CSC244_files/slimecommands.pdf 12:00:23 p0a i would agree in the most but he wants to program today not next week 12:00:46 guys emacs looks daunting 12:00:52 i don't have time atm to learn it 12:01:26 Is there a way to check for symlink's presence, without checking out whether it's dead or not when it exists? 12:01:41 shrewd1: do you really have time /not/ to learn /some/ of it? 12:01:51 emacs-dwim: but he has time to learn CL! 12:01:57 i couldn't even figure out how to M-x 12:02:08 shrewd1: ALT+X 12:02:23 <_3b> anyone bored and want to try installing/running classimp? 12:02:36 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:02:44 <_3b> http://wiki.github.com/3b/classimp is current attempt at install instructions 12:03:20 shewd1 emacs is daunting but for lisp it is a great tool, even when you only know the basics 12:03:59 -!- St0rmMolest [n=St0rmMol@c83-251-37-177.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:04:12 i tried M-x slime, but something went wrong 12:04:15 St0rmMolest [n=St0rmMol@c83-251-37-177.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:04:32 setting it up can sometimes be a pain, especially the newest version of emacs and slime, lots of things that work straight of don't work any more, but it was on windows so that might have been the problem as well 12:04:35 Oh, probe-file checks if there's /anything/ at all, so works for my needs. 12:05:05 I wonder if its behavior wrt. symlinks changed during last year. 12:06:49 Hmm 12:06:52 I found another bug in LOL 12:07:19 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:07:19 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:07:20 BLOCK-SCANNER nor the #>-READER functions work correctly for some input 12:07:30 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:07:42 (funcall (block-scanner "00100") "000100") 12:07:56 ==> NIL, even though "00100" is a substring of "000100" 12:08:10 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:08:49 shrewd1: what went wrong? error message? 12:09:11 p0a: Wow, that's an insightful lisp impl you're using ;) 12:09:23 -!- St0rmMolest [n=St0rmMol@c83-251-37-177.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:09:36 sellout: lol 12:09:39 Ok, a trickier question: how do you delete a dead symlink in SBCL? 12:10:08 emacs-dwim i'll check again, i'm trying out cusp on eclipse (well downloading it anyway 12:10:19 Er, screw that. 12:10:30 Lawl eclipse 12:10:45 The actual question is: how do you delete a symlink to a directory? 12:10:57 no such file or directory, lisp 12:11:01 emacs-dwim 12:11:01 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:11:22 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:11:23 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:11:28 deepfire: just delete the symlink as if it is a file? 12:11:43 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:11:53 emacs-dwim, delete-file errs when fed a symlink aimed at a directory.. 12:11:55 deepfire: (run-program "rm" (list "filename")) 12:11:57 I actually use emacs for editing text files, and other editors for lisp 12:12:03 Strangely enough 12:12:10 Fare, I was afraid of that answer.. 12:12:21 Jafet: masochistically enough, yes. 12:12:23 or (sb-posix:unlink ...) 12:12:26 what editor do you use for lisp? anyting simple? 12:12:39 Fare, wakarimashita, thanks 12:13:05 CL-FAD needs remove-file. 12:13:40 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has left #lisp 12:14:38 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 12:14:38 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:14:48 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 12:15:30 St0rmMolest [n=St0rmMol@c83-251-37-177.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:15:36 shrewd1: which lisp are you using? 12:16:33 clisp 12:16:46 on linux 12:17:39 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:18:00 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:19:04 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 12:19:11 you could either tell emacs where to find it: put "(setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/bin/clisp")" on a line in your ~/.emacs file; or create a symlink named "lisp" pointing to /usr/bin/clisp 12:19:36 Ohh, delete-file is totally useless: given a chain of symlinks, possibly terminating at a file, it removes the last element in the chain. 12:19:53 This is amazingly stupid. 12:20:00 deepfire: it is specified so. 12:20:14 deepfire: DELETE-FILE has to use TRUENAME. 12:20:14 shrewd1: or use "C-u M-x slime" to specify the path to clisp 12:20:45 how do i C-u ? 12:21:23 pjb`, list me among violent opponents to this point ;-) 12:21:51 CL-FAD truly needs remove-file. 12:22:07 shrewd1: CTRL+U 12:24:59 -!- St0rmMolest [n=St0rmMol@c83-251-37-177.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:25:33 thanks for trying guys, but emacs is just crazy to me 12:25:39 deepfire, maybe you can persuade luis to put it into osicat -- (if it's not already added) -- a few people have complained about it 12:25:57 shrewd1: it's probably easier to run SBCL on linux (slime has better support for it) 12:26:00 pjb`, where is it specified that delete-file has to use truename? 12:26:27 clhs delete-file 12:26:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_del_fi.htm 12:27:26 c|mell: indeed, I don't retrieve it. Perhaps I'm wrong. 12:28:01 -!- Penggu [n=me@222.96.96.58.static.exetel.com.au] has quit ["Preparing network connections..."] 12:28:48 shrewd1: it feels odd for the first week.. because you have to think about it; later your fingers use it while you think about your work 12:29:06 i don't have a week at the moment 12:29:07 shewd1 its worth making a little effort, steep learning curve for sure though, did you download that command sheet 12:29:24 i think there is a video as well, but that might be just slime 12:29:27 but when i have more time i will learn emacs 12:29:39 shrewd1, some programs are hard to use because they change the way you do things 12:29:43 its simply a time thing, i do wish to learn 12:30:16 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:30:33 shrewd1: if you insist on doing it the hard way, it may help to always insert pairs of matching delimeters by hand: () 12:30:36 St0rmMol1st [n=St0rmMol@c83-251-37-177.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:30:49 i figured out the missing delimiter 12:30:55 but i still don't get working code 12:31:04 envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 12:31:31 http://paste.lisp.org/display/88095 12:31:32 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:31:57 shrewd1: if you don't bother indentating your code why should we bother reading it? 12:31:59 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:32:18 indenting? look i'm sorry i'll just do this on my own 12:32:29 Again you fucked up the parenthesis. Go learn emacs. 12:32:37 i would hate to have to do parenthesis, think i would give up 12:32:44 by hand that is 12:32:44 shrewd1: read some Lisp introduction already? 12:33:08 emacs won't teach him to balance parentheses... 12:33:24 Jafet: No, paredit will make it so he doesn't have to. 12:33:27 Jafet: which is unnecessary with M-(. 12:33:44 Isn't that known as "missing the point"? 12:33:52 shrewd: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/index.html 12:33:55 Unless you plan to live in emacs 12:34:02 shrewd1: Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation 12:34:08 Jafet: Where else would you rather live in? 12:34:12 jafet other editors do it for you as well 12:34:15 that should be a useful intro for shrewd1 12:34:21 vie or what ever its called 12:34:22 Jafet: emacs will help him with it a bit with highlighting and so on 12:34:29 If you can't balance parens by hand, computes have no business doing it for you 12:34:39 Jafet: wong. 12:34:52 *Jafet* gives p0a a slide rule 12:34:53 Jafet: unbalanced parens are a typo, not a logic error. 12:34:53 wrong*. You assume everyone has the same abilities with you, as a human. 12:34:57 Jafet i would argue that nearly no one does it by hand 12:35:27 "Typo" does not have the meaning you seem to think is has, sellout 12:36:36 Jafet: So, you think he doesn't understand that you need the same number of open and closing parens? 12:36:37 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:36:54 He knows he does, of course, but I doubt he *understands* it 12:37:08 Understanding does not immediately follow from knowledge 12:37:29 having the same number is necessary, but not sufficient 12:37:33 ((sin 3)) 12:37:36 shrewd1: don't put close parentheses on a separate line -- use indentation (of 2 space -- not tabs) to get your visual cues, insert matching pairs then move inside and type. emacs automates all this, blinks matching parentheses, and allows easy movement over/of/through the parenthesised groups. 12:37:37 syntax error 12:38:01 lispm: Right, and paredit wouldn't prevent that kind of mistake. 12:38:05 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-43-141.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:38:27 right, because paredit understands s-expressions, but not Lisp 12:38:34 emacs-dwim: emacs doesn't use 2-space indentation by default afaik 12:39:04 lispm: Exactly, so we could get past the typo of having the wrong number, and deal with the logic issue of where they belong. 12:39:07 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:39:18 yep 12:39:40 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.221.15] has joined #lisp 12:39:47 emacs-dwin is there a reason not to use the tab key in emacs 12:39:55 seems to work fine for me 12:40:11 Guthur: it has to do more with the space-vs-tabs argument rather than emacs or the language you are using. 12:40:19 I think he means the tab character, Guthur 12:40:21 Guthur: the tab KEY is fine, it's the CHAR-CODE that's a problem. 12:40:42 sellout: the char-code is fine, it's the representation that's a problem! 12:40:45 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit ["Backups are usually a good thing unless it's a sewer."] 12:40:52 Guthur: it DTRT in emacs, but if you refuse to use emacs, spaces may get less complaints from #lisp-ers when they read lisppastes 12:40:55 p0a: zing! 12:40:56 i think emacs seems to be using 2 spaces for each tab key stroke 12:41:10 p0a, or rather, lack of consistent representation 12:41:37 Jafet: right. but consistent representation might lead in defective design elsewhere 12:42:48 Guthur: emacs users let emacs indent properly, but i'm just giving shrewd1 a quick hint to get started on non-emacs, until shrewd1 reaches enlightenment. 12:43:43 It'd be nice if there was an option in lisp paste to indent code too. Something like M-S-q 12:43:47 emacs-dwim its not auto-indenting for me, i may have to look into that 12:44:11 -!- St0rmMol1st [n=St0rmMol@c83-251-37-177.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:44:16 i think it may have done that at one point 12:44:31 St0rmMolest [n=St0rmMol@c83-251-37-177.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:45:09 Guthur: is usually bound to `indent-for-tab-command' -- i meant indenting by pressing the tab key in emacs. 12:45:47 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:45:50 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 12:46:35 emacs-dwim no probs, ya it works well 12:46:53 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-378538.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["leaving"] 12:47:27 it may have been my imagination that it auto-indented at one point 12:47:49 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 12:48:10 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:49:46 i'm using vim now 12:49:59 highlighting, and i know how to use it (much more so than emacs at least) 12:50:04 p0a: i just picked 2-spaces since that works for '(defun cond progn let &rest). it gets too complicated to bother since emacs knows it all 12:50:46 -!- St0rmMolest [n=St0rmMol@c83-251-37-177.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:54:45 silenius [n=jl@i59F71A85.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:57:41 danlei [n=user@pD9E2F279.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:20 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:58:58 shrewd1: you still don't have enough close-parens; and don't put them on blank lines as if they were "}" in C. Lispers don't want to see the parenthese, they are just markup for emacs (loosely). It's like leaving html tags hanging out into your page content. 12:59:07 -!- shrewd1 [n=arn@220.253-235-128.VIC.netspace.net.au] has left #lisp 12:59:51 shrewd1 [n=arn@220.253-235-128.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:59:59 sorry i missed that 13:00:00 emacs 13:00:30 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:00:32 15:58 < emacs-dwim> shrewd1: you still don't have enough close-parens; and don't put them on blank lines as if they were "}" in C. Lispers don't want to see the parenthese, they are just markup for emacs (loosely). It's like leaving html tags hanging out into your page content. 13:00:46 -!- silenius [n=jl@i59F71A85.versanet.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:00:55 ok 13:01:00 i think i understand 13:01:18 St0rmMolest [n=St0rmMol@c83-251-37-177.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:01:26 but this way makes sense to me 13:01:26 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:01:27 :S 13:01:47 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:02:03 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:02:29 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 13:02:36 shrewd1: There are new conventions to be learned with any language ... they'll make sense after a while :) 13:02:50 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:04:44 shrewd1: as long as you don't let the style-error-flames it generates when you run #lisp on it turn you off from the true path... 13:05:03 i will try and learn as i go 13:05:04 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:05:07 i'm just new 13:05:26 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:07:23 if i need to append 3 lists and want to keep the integrity of the lists ie. (1 2 3) () () appends to ((1 2 3) () () ) how do i do such a thing? 13:07:28 -!- St0rmMolest [n=St0rmMol@c83-251-37-177.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:07:43 shrewd1: Use LIST instead of APPEND 13:07:46 shrewd1: of course emacs could translate from your style to the conventional one, and back. building off of "M-x butterfly" you could write "M-x lisppaste" 13:07:49 shrewd1: that's not appending. 13:07:53 are format directives ~:S ~:A the same 13:08:12 Guthur: nope 13:08:13 so i say (list a b c) ? 13:08:22 shrewd1: yes. 13:08:37 enigma [n=enigma@hcl-club.lu] has joined #lisp 13:08:42 thanks 13:08:43 shrewd1: You really need to read some book on CL. 13:08:52 clhs 22.3.4 13:08:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cd.htm 13:08:58 whats wrong with learning this way? 13:08:59 Guthur: ^ 13:09:08 ok, I think I'm at the point where I'm going to write that F-ing run-program for iolib. 13:09:13 sellout if i have a list of objects i wish to print which should i use ~{~:A ~}, or the other 13:09:29 shrewd1: It annoys many here, which is why we are telling you to go read a book. 13:09:43 fair enough.... 13:09:48 sellout cheers 13:10:53 Fare: what was the last drop ? 13:11:14 -!- enigma [n=enigma@hcl-club.lu] has quit [Client Quit] 13:12:04 fe[nl]ix, that I really need it for XCVB ? 13:12:37 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:12:39 I am at the point where I can almost write the xcvb-master utility to call xcvb and load in-image what is compiled off-image 13:12:49 but for that, I need a decent run-program. 13:13:06 I could hack a bad emulation on top of asdf:run-shell-command 13:13:12 or I could bite the bullet. 13:13:31 Fare, it would be great to have a decent portable run-program 13:13:37 -!- pem is now known as pemryan 13:13:53 franz had two shots at making a decent unportable one, but didn't success 13:14:17 -!- sepi [n=enigma@hcl-club.lu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:15:01 two shots? 13:15:17 I'm wondering a bit what the interface should be. 13:15:31 my first versions will probably be awful. 13:15:33 but we'll see. 13:15:39 http://www.franz.com/support/documentation/current/doc/os-interface.htm#command-output-op-bookmarkxx -- their second try 13:16:01 do not copy it, i disrecommend that path :) 13:16:24 silenius [n=jl@i59F71A85.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:16:37 Fare: i recommend taking a look at what python has: http://docs.python.org/library/subprocess.html 13:16:56 it is a product of many earlier iterations so i'm guessing they might have a clue 13:17:48 yeah, I remember debugging a python program that was using things like that, and for compatibility it used the older version that sucked in comparison to what I was seeing it could have done with the later versions. 13:17:48 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:18:00 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:18:26 so indeed the recent versions look at least half-decent, unlike what we have in the CL world. 13:18:54 Here's what I'm thinking: 13:19:31 some DSL for specifying port/fd redirections and other special calls you want to setup a subprocess 13:19:45 (including the optional final exec) 13:20:12 then you spawn a child with an expression in that language 13:20:32 (on final closure/continuation to call in the child, alternatively) 13:21:48 whether the DSL is interpreted by CL or turned into some wordcode interpreted by C (for atomicity purposes) is left unspecified. 13:22:13 (better if the CL implementation allows to specify atomicity at the Lisp level) 13:22:13 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:22:26 (atomicity vs GC, signals, etc.) 13:22:28 is this overengineering? :) 13:22:38 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:22:59 when I look at the arguments to subprocess.popen, I say an emphatic NO! 13:23:48 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-43-141.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 13:23:56 it is quite limited in how one redirects output to multiple destinations 13:24:07 you basically have to create the machinery around it 13:24:25 so it is BOTH complex AND limited. 13:24:28 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-43-141.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:24:28 calls for a DSL. 13:25:26 as long as the DSL is expressive enough to cater to those needs 13:25:55 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 13:26:33 i'd recommend collecting the use cases first. my output redirection "problem" was that i had to print out the output to the console while the subprocess was running and also to a log file 13:26:51 i'd guess this is quite common and should be supported 13:28:43 like tee ? 13:29:50 foo 2>&1 | tee -a /log - 13:30:03 yea 13:30:33 -!- guaqua_ is now known as guaqua 13:32:18 so sure, implementing tee (and other filters) in CL ought to be trivial. 13:33:33 (actually, I initially wanted to cheat again and not write a real run-program, but COMMAND.COM like pipes instead. Then found out that to have safe temporary files, I'd need iolib's mkstemp, anyway) 13:34:01 what's the difference between command.com-pipes and the bash pipes? all-fds-in-one? 13:34:15 just run into something unexpected, i tried to add a list item to a () nill list, by doing something like (list '() '(1)) but it returns (nil 1) instead of just (1) 13:34:42 amazing! 13:35:19 is there a way to add 1 to () and have (1) ? 13:35:20 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:35:30 shewd1 do you know of http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 13:35:45 and if I have to use iolib, anyway, I might as well do the right thing. 13:35:45 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:35:46 very good as an intro IMHO 13:36:37 thanks, 13:36:43 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:00 mnl [n=mnl@dslb-088-072-164-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:01 The nice thing about xcvb is that I can use whatever I want in XCVB, it doesn't affect the lisp processes that use xcvb 13:37:22 except that for xcvb-master itself, I'll have to confine myself to whatever the Lisp implementation provides. Sigh. 13:38:01 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.2.204] has joined #lisp 13:39:14 my bordeaux-threads repo is in trouble. How do I revert any local changes with darcs? 13:39:42 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.81.123] has joined #lisp 13:39:48 sepi [n=enigma@hcl-club.lu] has joined #lisp 13:39:49 darcs revert -a 13:40:02 Fare: revert 13:40:10 ah, you got it already :) 13:40:33 this is actually confusing, because revert does something -completely- different in git 13:40:37 i'm looking through the list processing part of that guide, i'm still at a loss as to how to append a nil list together with a list with items in it and end up with just the items 13:40:56 ouch, trying to compile iolib, I get a connection broken by remote peer :( 13:41:10 (append '() (list 1 2 3)) => (1 2 3) 13:41:23 interestingly, it was compiling the wrong iolib. Sigh. 13:41:30 i see, thanks adlai 13:42:14 silenius_ [n=jl@i59F71A85.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:42:14 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:42:20 shrewd1: again, let me recommend some documentatation... Common Lisp has much better documentation than most programming languages (in my opinion) 13:42:23 clhs append 13:42:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_append.htm 13:42:27 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 13:42:49 great, i'll read that thanks 13:42:54 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:43:35 Im having troubles compiling sbcl with clisp 13:43:53 Adlai, correction: the CLHS is of good quality, but it covers a fraction of what other languages provide, and the CL "libraries" are vastly un(der)documented 13:44:57 Fare: true. I do however think that the CL is better documentation than, say, rubydoc.org 13:45:07 *ruby-doc.org 13:45:09 Fare: what I want for iolib is an execution server: send a plist of commands to the server(written in C or perhaps Perl) and have it send you the 3 FDs back 13:45:24 http://paste.lisp.org/display/88099 13:45:31 -!- Numlock is now known as PissedNumlock 13:45:32 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:45:58 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:46:30 FDs to what? 13:46:48 Adlai, if you set the bar low enough, you're sure to pass 13:47:01 mnl_ [n=mnl@dslb-088-072-164-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:20 I think Common Lisp is a much nicer language to program in than Brainfuck or INTERCAL! 13:47:34 -!- mnl [n=mnl@dslb-088-072-164-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:48:13 Fare: ok, true, my statement revealed hopeless smuglispweenie-ness :) 13:49:27 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:49:27 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:51:05 <_3b> PissedNumlock: ./make.sh 'clisp -ansi -on-error abort' 13:51:46 Fare: the 3 standard FDs of the process 13:52:05 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:52:17 what process? I'm lost. 13:52:52 so you tell the server "please spawn me some process that runs this command, and return those FDs?" 13:53:10 why need a server to do that? 13:53:15 but sure. 13:54:06 Adlai, there could be worse things to be hopelessly smug about hehe 13:54:53 -!- silenius [n=jl@i59F71A85.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:54:57 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:56:34 *Fare* is smug about his smugness 13:56:53 you guys are smug about such petty things! 13:57:27 St0rmMol1st [n=St0rmMol@c83-251-37-177.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:58:33 ya but its not as bad as #python, nice language, but some people take the holy grailness a little too far over there 14:00:38 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:00:53 example in hand is how multi threading is totally useless in all respects, which imo seems to be born from the fact it is not well implemented in python 14:01:11 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:01:35 whereas multithreading is only horribly misdesigned. 14:01:45 -!- shrewd1 [n=arn@220.253-235-128.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:01:45 fare, not you too 14:01:52 hehe 14:02:10 he keeps a python in the basement 14:02:28 *schmx* enjoys python the compiler ? 14:02:35 -!- schmx is now known as schme 14:03:57 I only like Pythons that do type inference and flow analysis on my code. 14:04:41 -!- St0rmMol1st [n=St0rmMol@c83-251-37-177.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:04:52 St0rmMolest [n=St0rmMol@c83-251-37-177.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:06:11 fe[nl]ix, I can't compile IOLib -- iolib.syscalls complains about invalid initialization argument :SONAME from CFFI-GROVEL:WRAPPER-FILE 14:06:11 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:06:19 (using the latest iolib and cffi) 14:06:23 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:08:37 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 14:08:42 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-45-9.w90-59.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:09:13 We also have a python in a terrarium here. It is kinda pretty. 14:09:47 doesn't seem to do threading at all, to be honest. 14:09:47 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:10:00 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:12:26 Fare: you need cffi HEAD 14:12:53 -!- zeroish` [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:12:53 -!- zeroish [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:13:44 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:14:33 how do I know which I'm using? 14:14:59 envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 14:15:02 I'm using http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/darcs/cffi (says _darcs/prefs/repos) 14:18:30 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:18:47 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:03 Fare: that's the right one, but I don't think you're using it 14:19:03 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:19:34 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:20:16 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 14:20:49 (describe (asdf:find-system :cffi)) and (describe (asdf:find-system :cffi-grovel)) say I'm using the one in /home/fare/cl/cffi/ which is the darcs thing I told you about 14:21:15 -!- silenius_ is now known as silenius 14:21:16 same for iolib being the git from cl.net 14:21:39 (using sbcl 1.0.31.0.debian) 14:25:02 iolib and cffi HEAD are fine. there must be something wrong on your machine 14:25:26 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:56 :( 14:27:03 I swear I'm using the latest http://common-lisp.net/project/iolib/git/iolib.git (master) and http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/darcs/cffi 14:28:21 wait, maybe there was some stale fasl? This time, it's working better... I'm baffled. 14:28:21 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:28:35 I hate non-determinism in builds. 14:28:38 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:29:25 :) 14:30:15 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:30:29 jkantz_wfh [n=jkantz@c-66-31-31-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:54 chavo_ [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:08 KingNato [n=patno@84-217-2-163.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:31 hey Fare, will you xcvb thing make it easy for packages to do different things depending on the versions of other packages? there seems to be no easy way to do that in asdf at the moment 14:33:10 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:33:55 c|mell, I don't have plans for that in XCVB. My only plan is to let you control what's in using XCVB_PATH instead of that crazy ASDF system symlink crap. 14:34:07 St0rmMol1st [n=St0rmMol@c83-251-37-177.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:34:18 so you control what you're compiling together with what. 14:34:44 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-238.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:35:07 sort of like java's classpath? 14:42:27 St0rmMol2st [n=St0rmMol@c83-251-37-177.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:43:42 KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-2-163.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:52 I remember a discussion for another system definition facility where you'd have different "areas" of libraries you could point at, e.g. development, stable, etc. 14:43:59 or was it Python? 14:44:12 -!- St0rmMolest [n=St0rmMol@c83-251-37-177.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:48:00 dwh [n=dwh@118.209.130.48] has joined #lisp 14:48:14 nowadays people seem to think that you can even get away without making releases :) 14:49:38 guaqua, yes. 14:49:49 c|mell, is my release-tarball release enough for you? 14:50:29 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:50:29 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:50:55 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:51:21 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-10-73.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:40 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:54:04 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:54:19 jeti [n=jeti@p548EF67D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:44 -!- St0rmMol1st [n=St0rmMol@c83-251-37-177.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:55:23 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:56 -!- clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has quit [Client Quit] 14:56:11 clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 14:56:11 -!- silenius [n=jl@i59F71A85.versanet.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:56:59 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:58:12 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:58:31 i wasn't talking about your projects Fare :) -- i myself am pretty bad at labelling releases 14:58:36 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:58:50 KingNato_ [n=patno@84-217-10-73.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:42 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:43 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:00:08 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:00:15 c|mell: the tarball maker of gitweb is a great way to have a release :) 15:00:47 though for XCVB, my release includes all dependencies in a known-working combo, so I'm rolling my own. 15:00:50 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:02:27 i either do the github tarball, or make the tarball in my git post-update hook -- but that's not the same as actually taking the trouble to make a release 15:02:48 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:03:09 -!- St0rmMol2st [n=St0rmMol@c83-251-37-177.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:03:15 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@p4FDF4ACB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 15:03:20 which should involve a bit of testing, documentation of dependency versions, etc. 15:03:24 <_3b> if the users want releases, they should get together and organize them themselves :p 15:04:05 *_3b* is regretting trying to make a 'release' of classimp 15:06:02 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:47 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:06:49 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:24 -!- mnl_ [n=mnl@dslb-088-072-164-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:07:25 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.16.238] has joined #lisp 15:07:39 -!- KingNato [n=patno@84-217-2-163.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:08:03 -!- KingNato_ is now known as KingNato 15:09:23 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:50 what, you actually test releases? my god. 15:11:58 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-2-163.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 105 (No buffer space available)] 15:11:58 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 15:11:59 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:12:16 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:12:27 -!- male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [] 15:13:35 c|mell: my thoughts exactly 15:13:52 release engineering is quite undervalued 15:15:24 but i guess it comes with the type of people. release engineering is also a social effort if there are many separate systems that need to be coordinated. and programmers - well, not generally inclined to work with people 15:15:24 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:15:54 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:16:09 release engineering makes sense when you have users... and then there's a chicken-and-egg problem. 15:16:35 *_3b* was about to say something similar 15:17:30 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32BF04.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:51 hmm. i'm actually now thinking if i should do by bachelor's thesis on "release engineering in the free software community" or something in that vein 15:19:06 which reminds me... SBCL missed another timeboxed release :'( 15:21:49 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 15:21:59 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 15:23:17 is there an algorithm for determining who's in charge? 15:23:56 Fare: nagging over irc? 15:25:23 naggum over IRC? 15:25:33 that would be something. Flaming from beyond the grave. 15:25:50 1) Use /mode in attempt to gain ops. Success -> 2a) you are in charge. Fail -> 2b) you are not in charge. 15:26:24 postamar [n=postamar@75-119-247-158.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:27:10 *Fare* /mode #lisp +o Fare 15:27:16 doesn't work 15:28:26 <_3b> Fare: did you say you had synergy restarting autmatically? if so, mind pasting it? 15:28:28 There we go 15:28:43 *_3b* doesn't do shell stuff enough to set it up without thinking about it 15:29:07 -!- gmlk [n=gmlk@alicia.demon.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:29:34 while : ; do synergyblah ; done 15:30:07 postamar: how would you feel as an SBCL release engineer? 15:30:23 oh, I also do a xset r on before restarting, as synergy tends to lose that. 15:30:25 (see? nagging over IRC ;) 15:31:48 pkhuong: i feeeel good! ta-da-da-da-da... 15:32:12 <_3b> ah, duh... it apparently has a --restart option 15:32:25 yeah, it's a little embarassing to miss _time-boxed_ releases 15:32:30 icecube_ [n=icecube@p549C3605.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:39 <_3b> oh, apparently it is the default, so i guess i shouldn't rely on that :( 15:32:48 the sad thing is that it does take a couple of hours, even the utterly minimal "release-engineering" that I do 15:33:10 Krystof: I could do it 15:33:11 (build, rebuild, run tests, Sourceforge Web^WNew This Month Interface Of Doom, announce) 15:33:27 *_3b* tries the while loop 15:34:52 froydnj: ping 15:38:18 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-98-216-135-10.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:27 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 15:39:00 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:40:16 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 15:42:28 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-4-89.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:49 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp058.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:43:41 ska` [n=user@ppp-58-8-125-231.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 15:43:41 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:44:07 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:46:57 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 15:47:11 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:49:17 -!- _icecube_ [n=icecube@p549C6B46.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:49:21 maybe you could include a script that does it all somewhere in CVS 15:49:35 ./check-and-release-if-successful.sh 15:50:09 which first prints out what it's going to do, so you confirm before you go take a nap. 15:50:24 (and only does it if all tests passed) 15:51:35 :) 15:51:46 the problem, i think is, that it can't be automated 15:52:29 everything on a computer can be automated :p 15:52:59 what can't be automated? editing the sourceforge thing? 15:53:23 I'm sure even that step could be automated, with a bit of preparation. 15:53:26 that yes, but not checking with people, writing about the new release :) 15:53:46 sure, so you'd have to write your blurb, the thing would do the rest. 15:54:11 guaqua, just push it to rss, so you don't have to write release notes 15:55:10 Fare, Jafet: technical obstacles are just obstacles. you can have all sorts of automation 15:55:28 but that alone doesn't make up what i think 'release engineering' is 15:55:39 what is it? 15:56:02 *Fare* would like to know what a release engineer is... 15:56:53 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:57:10 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:57:43 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:57:59 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-10-73.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:57:59 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 15:58:08 i guess i see more vision. writing software is not just about features. if it was just about features, only a changelog entry would be needed. the fact is, we like to read natural language and log files are not that "natural" 15:58:09 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:58:20 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:58:44 -!- no_mind [n=orion@122.162.255.121] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:59:05 so basically the changes need to be communicated in different ways, a release in a sense separate from the rest of the process 15:59:07 -!- KingNato [n=patno@84-217-10-73.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:59:27 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 15:59:38 I prefer the SBCL lists. If there are higher-level changes that binds together several changes, then describe them separately. Or, make a master ticket describing that feature. :-) 15:59:40 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 15:59:59 -!- jeti [n=jeti@p548EF67D.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 16:01:58 dialtone [n=dialtone@98.210.155.172] has joined #lisp 16:02:42 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:02:56 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:05:22 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:08:24 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:09:57 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-4-252.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 16:09:58 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-97-60.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:11:31 mnl [n=mnl@vwthunderstorm.de] has joined #lisp 16:13:46 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:13:46 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-98-216-135-10.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:14:02 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:14:04 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:15:57 gauqua if they are only writing up changes near to release, then you would have to question the decision process for the inclusion of said features in the software 16:17:26 Guthur: yeah, it's all a mess of sorts. do you actually have a goal-driven development or just group of hackers improving something incrementally here and there :) 16:17:39 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:28 silenius [n=jl@i59F71A85.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:19:24 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-0-199.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:19:25 -!- postamar [n=postamar@75-119-247-158.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [] 16:19:44 dwh_ [n=dwh@ppp118-208-156-57.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:58 -!- dwh [n=dwh@118.209.130.48] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:20:26 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:57 i know getting a good requirements doc is hard, but retrospectively is taking the biscuit hehe 16:21:46 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:46 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:22:28 Obviously you place the goals after the balls have landed 16:22:47 Good evening! 16:24:12 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:24:44 kerimbasol [n=kerim@85.107.139.82] has joined #lisp 16:29:40 trebor_home [n=email@dslb-084-058-231-058.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:40 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:30:19 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:30:48 You guys should read about agile methods. 16:31:04 -!- jyujin__ is now known as jyujin 16:33:21 As a result of reading and teaching about XP, I am now convinced that what I have (occasionally) practiced in the past (in terms of testing) when I was absolutely not sure that I had something correct, is the right thing to do. 16:33:37 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-97-60.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:38:45 -!- silenius [n=jl@i59F71A85.versanet.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:38:45 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:39:16 beach its quite good for production tool development 16:39:38 Three cheers for new wave dogma 16:39:54 well that was my experience of it anyway, doubt it would fit all software 16:39:58 -!- ejs [n=eugen@156-44-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:40:21 Guthur: It won't. But FLOSS development is very similar. 16:40:55 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:57 i only FLOSS after eating 16:41:06 sorry bad joke hehe 16:41:06 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 16:41:16 yeah, very funny! 16:41:31 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:43:31 don't think i'd like my OS developed following that paradigm 16:43:52 I don't mind Linux. 16:43:52 Sorry to hear that. 16:43:55 (nor Haiku) 16:44:36 (my comment was for Guthur) 16:44:45 i doubt they ship linux to the public as soon as possible 16:44:46 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:45:07 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:45:18 "they"? 16:45:25 to be fair i haven't looked to deeply into the development process for linux 16:45:27 "linux"? 16:45:50 "ship"? :-) 16:45:51 lol well which ever flavour you particularly like then 16:46:25 i was generalising for the sake of simplicity 16:46:46 Guthur: I was just being odd, not making a point. 16:47:01 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:47:31 i wonder how many available beta reductions exist in the current linux kernel. 16:47:41 Guthur: From reading about XP, and counting my experience from the software industry in 4 countries, I can say that XP is the only one that got it right, at least for the kind of software they (implicitly) handle. 16:47:42 no problem, i wasn't being to serious either 16:48:04 beach, tried pair programming? 16:48:08 -!- icecube_ [n=icecube@p549C3605.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:48:38 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:48:54 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32D881.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:02 beach, ya i like the approach, it worked well for me before, but my experience was more narrow than your own 16:49:02 beach: I have to agree. 16:49:09 lispm: Me? You must be kidding! I am not a programmer! I am a university professor. I am not supposed to program. But I would try it if I were in an industrial situation. 16:49:14 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:49:28 *sellout* has pair programmed, and it was awesome. 16:49:35 ha, beach! 16:49:35 but i wasn't working with the public, only other programmers 16:49:50 (and yes, for years, not just like once or twice) 16:49:59 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-84-210.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 16:50:07 prefers screen programming. 16:50:11 the most fun story of 'pair programming' is from Steele/Stallman, I'd say 16:50:25 doesnt need to be right/left by side. 16:50:32 sellout: Good to hear. 16:50:37 *sellout* does cons programming 16:50:45 lispm: URL? 16:50:46 It's lispier! 16:50:57 beach: http://blog.obiefernandez.com/content/2009/09/10-reasons-pair-programming-is-not-for-the-masses.html 16:51:40 http://cycle-gap.blogspot.com/2007/09/extreme-pair-programming-guy-steele-and.html 16:52:07 sellout: nice! 16:52:38 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-14-25.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:53:10 sellout: those are all wrong reasons 16:53:15 'he was surprised to find himself surrounded by nighttime darkness.' 16:53:18 <_3b> sellout: are any of those specific to pair programming? (aside from maybe 2 keyboards+mouse/workstation) 16:53:32 <_3b> that just sounds like a 'why software sucks' list :p 16:53:42 lispm: You can't imagine how much I would love to have experiences like that. 16:53:47 why programmers suck more precisely 16:53:55 <_3b> poor tools, poor programmers,poor communication 16:54:07 they are have overblown egos and don't wash enough 16:54:08 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:54:15 -are 16:54:23 <_3b> varjag: nah, that's unrelated to that list 16:54:25 beach: the MIT AI Lab was a place for that 16:54:34 lispm: The closest one was with gilberth in 2000 merging his code with that of Mike McDonald, and what ultimately became McCLIM. 16:54:43 _3b: I think that's effectively the point of the article, it's just that you can't sweep those things under the rug with pair programming. 16:55:01 <_3b> sellout: ah, ok 16:55:02 lispm: Yes, I realize that. It's too bad it is not more widespread. 16:55:19 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:55:28 *_3b* wishes i had ended up in a good situation to learn/use agile stuff at some point 16:55:32 'real' pair programming means that both get a chance to type on the keyboard 16:55:44 you don't use agile, you preach it :) 16:55:55 there's a whole consultancy business around it 16:56:03 i love vegetable programming, its awesome. 16:56:08 <_3b> varjag: i mean the actual useful bits, not the religion :) 16:56:15 varjag: There's a whole consultancy business around everything. 16:56:18 I did 'agile consulting' for several years 16:56:30 sellout: yes, but agile is mostly consulting 16:56:39 gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:43 varjag: The fact that some people are willing to exploit keywords-of-the-day doesn't mean there is anything bad about the ideas. 16:57:02 <_3b> like the unit testing everything bit, i could probably use it, but having never been in a situation where it was a natuaral fit, i can't see how to stretch it to the things i actually do 16:57:17 unit testing was for ages before agile and xp 16:57:27 varjag: Not at all ... it's just that (for example) Amazon doesn't go around talking about how they use Scrum all the time. 16:57:29 i remember rt.lisp from mid-90s 16:57:41 You don't see the non-consulting face of it unless you work in it. 16:58:24 in the mid 80s we called it 'regulated prototyping' 16:58:31 i've been to two agile conferences, i think i got enough taste of the kitchen to form my opinion on that 16:59:01 esp. about scrum part 16:59:07 *_3b* thought /everyone/ was talking about how they use scrum, all the time these days :/ 16:59:23 varjag: I repeat, don't let the people exploiting the trend disuade you from seeing the good ideas and using them. 16:59:54 there are useful parts in every methodology true 16:59:55 There is nothing new about the good ideas of XP 16:59:59 in waterfall model, too 17:00:05 People just added bad ideas and a name 17:00:08 planning is useful :) 17:00:46 Jafet: i was amazed how much dislike there's between xp and agile congregations 17:00:49 The result is that the noob programmers end up associating said bad ideas with the good ones, because they are all referred to by collective names 17:01:33 varjag, there is a difference? 17:01:42 tirinim. 17:01:43 there is one other angle; there really isn't that many good programmers 17:01:48 apparently 17:02:13 but xp is on way out 17:02:26 I found that in a team the code from the less good programmers will eventually be replaced 17:02:26 clearly, that their posterboy project failed didn't help the case 17:03:09 -!- bin_strout2 [n=user@92-235-189-122.cable.ubr18.sgyl.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:04:34 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:06:08 mnl_ [n=mnl@dslb-088-072-164-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:08 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:06:34 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:08:33 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:09:34 Jafet: the new thing is actually talking about it and writing it down, like admitting that people are important because they are the ones developing. All other methods try to abstract away people in favor of documents. 17:10:14 djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:10:22 every methodology in a way tries to reduce variation between individuals 17:10:35 really? 17:10:38 Sounds new indeed. 17:11:25 varjag: I consider such "methodoligies" a really bad idea that should be avoided at all cost. 17:11:43 Wait, "talking about it and writing it down" is different to "documents" how? 17:11:45 that's an improtant idea of 'industrial programming': replaceable developers 17:11:54 yes 17:11:55 Did English just change while I was out 17:11:55 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:12:08 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:12:26 even pair programming is a same take, to even out performance per workplace 17:12:48 Jafet: I was talking about the books that have been published about such methods, in contrast to the documents that the team members are supposed to produce. 17:13:21 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:13:25 -!- mnl_ [n=mnl@dslb-088-072-164-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:13:33 _icecube_ [n=icecube@p549C700E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:41 lispm: Indeed, and one of the ideas that have the most catastrophic impact on productivity. 17:13:54 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:14:40 lispm: So the conclusion is that `industrial programming' is not about productivity, which could be true, but I keep looking for companies that would be interested in higher productivity instead. 17:14:59 -!- mnl [n=mnl@vwthunderstorm.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:15:13 productivity is not a problem in practical programming 17:15:16 estimation is 17:16:04 Though, given my insight the other day about #lisp (that there is a strong "jantelagen" tendency) I am not surprised to hear what is being said. 17:16:07 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:16:14 varjag: I strongly disagree. 17:16:20 if you could have a methodology that gives uniform, reliable performance per work place, it would've been golden 17:16:29 because it makes estimation trivial 17:16:38 well not trivial but quite easier 17:16:38 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:16:41 varjag: oh be careful what you wish for 17:16:47 beach: productivity is one thing, but what productivity? In my opinion productivity goes beyond a single project and I'm more interested in 'quality' 17:16:56 the easiest way to get uniform performance per workplace is by fixing performance at 0 17:16:59 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:17:01 varjag: Someone would be willing to pay for that, yes, but it would be an order of magnitude more expensive than what your comptetitors could produce. 17:17:01 less code, better code 17:17:07 Or a number closer to 0 17:17:20 Which you can accomplish easily using things like Java 17:17:54 lispm: As you noticed, I didn't define productivity, and as you might have guessed it is more complicated than "lines per code produced per time unit". 17:17:57 antifuchs: i don't really wish that, i just observe what industry seems to want 17:18:10 beach, yes 17:18:14 so we get the new silver bullet methodology every 5 years 17:19:10 varjag: This is exactly why I tell industry that "you know what you want but not what you need. I know that better than you do!". 17:19:22 Methodology itself is a silver bullet. 17:20:36 For instance, industry really needs Common Lisp, but they don't know that, so they don't want it. 17:20:46 Therefore, industry has to be trained. 17:21:19 beach: I might go a step further. Industry needs good programmers, but they don't know that either. 17:21:30 wgl: Of course, yes. 17:22:19 One way that I train industry is to train my students in technologies that the industry needs, and so when they become part of it, ultimately they (then "industry") will want it. 17:22:20 What is this nebulous industry thingy you speak of 17:22:56 By Industry i speak of companies that hire programmers by the truckload. Nay, trainload. 17:23:11 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:23:18 Ah, those are ephemeral 17:23:21 Jafet: It's some kind of fuzzy average of the companies that are most likely to hire my graduates. 17:23:35 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:23:40 Ephemeral code by ephemeral programmers in ephemeral offices 17:24:10 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:24:12 Jafet: You are showing all the signs of "Jantelagen". 17:24:27 Jafet: Not a problem, you fit right in here. 17:24:43 Don't go swedish on me 17:25:39 Jafet: fine "Janteloven") in original language. 17:25:53 s/)// 17:26:13 Or danish, either 17:26:36 Jafet: are you one of those mono-lingual types? 17:26:54 djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:27:25 Nein 17:27:45 Gut! 17:27:58 Is there a cl equivalent/analog to the scheme exact / inexact thing? 17:28:13 But the internet is English, of course 17:28:17 splittist: Not that I know, at least not in the standard. 17:28:47 [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.125] has joined #lisp 17:28:57 Jafet: The tradition on #lisp is to at least be somewhat curious about other cultures and languages, at least when they can teach us something. 17:29:07 beach: OK. Thanks! 17:29:28 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:29:30 r5rs exact 17:29:31 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for exact. 17:29:39 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:57 splittist: I didn't go read the CLHS right then, so I might have missed something; all of this is from memory. 17:30:29 splittist: rational/float? 17:32:19 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:32:41 wow, christmas is early this year 17:32:42 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:32:53 lispm: ? 17:33:06 http://210.102.99.71:42435/toc.cfm?id=SERIES288&idx=SERIES288&type=series&coll=ACM&dl=ACM&part=series&WantType=Proceedings&title=LFP&CFID=13660249&CFTOKEN=97465428 17:33:19 ACM Conferences on Lisp and Functional Programming 17:33:30 Perl 6 isn't out yet 17:33:36 it seems the papers are freely downloadable 17:33:37 ! 17:33:47 ACM, and freely downloadable 17:33:51 new for me 17:33:59 Hey, that's great! 17:34:03 from 1980 to 1994 17:34:25 stassats: http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs/r6rs-Z-H-14.html#node_idx_462 17:35:05 thanks 17:37:18 in scheme, if I remember right, you can have inexact rationals and exact floats 17:38:23 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:38:29 hey, I think I remember wrong 17:38:39 I don't know any implementation that does that 17:38:48 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:39:59 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 17:40:18 I remembered that there might have been the ability to do 'exactness' contagion, so you could e.g. mark an integer as inexact (e.g. coming from some measurement process) and then have the result be exact or inexact depending on whether there was cancellation or not 17:41:35 Not sure, but scheme implementations don't have to do everything 17:41:53 They could well just make all inexact values floating point, which they do 17:43:49 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:48:20 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-0-199.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:37 Jafet: As I recall, the Scheme standard gives a lot of freedom to the implementations wrt the "numeric tower". 17:49:37 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:49:44 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.125] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:49:55 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:49:56 [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.125] has joined #lisp 17:50:33 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.125] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:50:51 [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.125] has joined #lisp 17:50:59 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-67-203.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:51:40 Anyway, working on the document-recovery system and its algorithms for a few days has been fun. Now, I'm afraid I have to get something done in some other areas, for instance writing tests (in the spirit of agile methods) for my optimal-redisplay code. 17:51:51 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.81.123] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:52:44 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 17:54:41 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:55:03 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:55:08 beach do you encourage your students to use lisp 17:55:28 Guthur: Of course! What a strange question! 17:56:17 hhh not really they seemed to have stop in my uni from what i see 17:56:25 nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-73-74.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 17:56:58 Guthur: As I said, as long as I can get away with it, we teach what industry needs as opposed to what it wants. 17:57:19 they seem to think industry wants .net in my uni 17:57:35 Industry doesn't need anything -- industry wants. 17:57:37 from my initial impression 17:57:38 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:57:56 *nyef* shudders at the thought of .net on a 64k embedded controller. 17:58:06 Guthur: That is because that is what industry says it needs, but what industry says it needs, and what industry needs are not the same things. 17:58:08 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:58:14 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:58:28 nyef aye they probably use C for that 17:58:42 Guthur: That can be better, but isn't always. 17:59:18 i actually have been toying with idea of forming a 'club' to offer undergrads the a place to experiment with lisp, but i need to use it more myself first, and i'm not sure how receptive they would be 17:59:24 I'll just note that, for my last job, I ended up learning a bit about RPG. 17:59:28 undergrads just want to drink after uni 17:59:46 i mean after lectures 17:59:54 Guthur: Come to Bordeaux. 18:00:50 beach thank you, i'm sure its lovely there. 18:00:50 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:00:55 "Good wine, and better universities"? 18:01:07 Guthur: what is stopping you? 18:01:20 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:01:41 I have started my post grad, and would like to finish hehe 18:01:54 Guthur: I can wait. 18:04:00 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:04:32 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 18:05:17 beach: is the requirements of industry really meant to be the driving force behind curricula in proper universities? 18:05:21 it would be interesting to see how many undergrads are actually interested in experimenting with lisp, or any language for that matter 18:05:21 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:05:59 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:07:00 rsynnott, what's a university meant to do? 18:07:06 rsynnott: Some people think so. I disagree as long as industry is incapable of expressing its "requirements" in a reasonable way. 18:07:56 give someone an education 18:07:56 Guthur: undergrauates are interested in graduateing, nothing else (statistically speaking of course), and they are right. 18:08:20 if you want training, do a computer programming course in a vocational third level institution, or something 18:08:44 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 18:08:49 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:09:13 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:10:01 rsynnott: Things are more complex when you take into account the differences of different continents, in this case between the US, continental Europe, Scandinavia, Vietnam, etc. 18:11:11 hello worlds 18:11:23 hello salva 18:13:16 its not just location difference software development is rather non-deterministic, if it wasn't then the whole visual programming would be here already 18:13:30 Blaay|not [i=Blay@BSN-142-173-42.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:37 it would? 18:13:57 which kind of rules out vocational training as a effective means of producing good software developers 18:14:05 beach well maybe 18:14:21 i have a beginer problem some help will great thanks, 18:14:38 "Visual programming" is a wierd concept anyway. What's next, "olfactory programming"? 18:14:52 nyef lol 18:15:56 as long as they add a C-like syntax , everything is fine 18:16:00 *danlei* smells himself a lambda 18:16:05 Guthur: I don't rule out vocational training as a means of producing good software developers. We just have to accept some of the methods they use, like marking the rank by the size of the hat, and making people write Makefiles for the first year of they carrer (not to talk about showing up in time for class, or else be eliminated from the program). 18:16:59 ... Hey, has anyone tried using actual Makefiles for controlling lisp software construction? 18:16:59 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:17:15 Xof: ping 18:17:20 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:17:29 Well, asdf or xcvb would work as well. 18:18:07 Krystof: Xof: ping (make sure to cover my bases) 18:19:16 Guthur: The good thing about such a program would be that you would attract and keep the people who are well organized and understand that software development is a team effort, and what I call "cowboy programmers" would be excluded early on. 18:19:37 boo, no minion 18:19:37 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:19:55 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:20:15 roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 18:20:23 lispm: reading the proceedings from that link 18:20:40 why other people are so depressingly smart 18:20:48 ha! 18:21:07 let giants stand on your shoulders 18:21:15 beach possibly, team work is important, but everyone is trying to encourage that these days, even universities 18:21:26 TR2N [i=email@89-180-201-229.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 18:22:14 well , i need some help with The variable module-name is defined but never used in http://paste.lisp.org/display/88107 thanks 18:23:35 salva: ... And it isn't, because the only references to the symbol are quoted. 18:23:35 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:24:01 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:24:14 escape module-name with a ',' where you have it in the instance builder. 18:24:26 What backquote? 18:24:41 garg 18:24:46 never mind 18:24:54 i try this but say that isn't in a backquote 18:25:00 my fonts are all fusked up. 18:25:13 I mistook the ' for a ` 18:26:31 dont is a basic error? 18:26:37 varjag: You might be confusing "smart" with "experienced". 18:27:15 the quotes on those forms aren't right. 18:27:24 or "smart" with "ability to get papers published" 18:27:25 as nyef said. 18:27:29 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:27:52 Guthur: Could be. But we are not going nearly far enough to make sure our students know the truth, and industry is not helping us by putting new graduates in position of way too much responsibility. 18:27:53 beach: no, not really 18:29:24 froydnj: looking at reification paper by Bawden from lfp88 18:29:29 varjag: I think you are. I don't consider myself smarter than average, but I used to think that stuff like that could only be produced by people way smarter than me. Now I know it's a question of reading up on things, understanding, thinking hard about it, and then producing something better. 18:29:59 varjag: ok, so in that case probably not :) 18:30:11 are the TeX typewriter fonts available as TTF ? 18:30:59 beach: well not all people are smarter than me sure, just that i'm in the industry for 12 years now 18:31:07 so i can factor the experience part out :) 18:31:36 most people or of or around average intelligence, experience is very important, another thing is desire, if you don't like the work you are not going to push very hard 18:31:40 varjag: in no way was I trying to imply that you are less smart than others. 18:31:57 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 18:32:23 varjag: Typically, my PhD students start off thinking they couldn't possibly produce something original, but after a year of reading papers and such, they become pretty close to being world-experts in a domain. 18:33:40 *Fare* apt-get install cm-super-x11 18:33:41 My dept's head described his vision of a PhD pretty much that way: become the world's expert in a domain. 18:34:58 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:35:00 varjag: I am no longer surprised myself, of course (because this is my job), but if you just take the time to read the publications in a particular domain (and provided you understand the fundamentals of it), you quickly get ideas about how to improve it. Those ideas won't all work, but those that don't will give you clues as to why the domain is difficult. 18:36:02 yeah a lot can be compensated with experience 18:36:02 pkhuong: Good to know I am not the only one. It is pretty much true though. A PhD student should surpass his/her adviser at the end of the program. 18:36:22 and focus 18:36:57 varjag: I think we agree. 18:37:10 Hello! I have a function, that accepts several symbols as an arguments. if I call this function from it's package then everything is fine. When I call this function from other package I get an error. It seems that symbols are different if I pass then from "outside". Is that true? 18:37:10 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:37:45 freiksenet: you might be passing symbols in from another package with the same name 18:37:49 freiksenet: Post your code please. 18:37:54 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:38:03 beach: we'll see if I've developed world-class expertise in lagrangian relaxation methods for combinatorial problems in 3 years time (: 18:38:03 beach: I would need to post whole package :( 18:38:04 ie, the function might expect foo::apple, but it's getting cl-user::apple 18:38:21 Adlai: what do you mean by "with same name"? 18:38:36 <_3b> when a symbol is read, it is interened into the current package 18:38:42 (symbol-name 'cl-user::apple) => "APPLE" 18:38:49 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:38:59 freiksenet: No, you turn it into an essential code that demonstrates the problem. 18:39:01 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:39:25 pkhuong: In your case, I wouldn't be worried. Are you? 18:39:38 Adlai: hmm, I pass symbols with no prefixes. Do you mean that prefixes are added automatically? 18:39:43 jeti [n=jeti@p548EF67D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:09 Adlai: cause then this is my problem %) 18:40:10 freiksenet: if there's no explicit package when a symbol is read in, then it gets read into the package designated by *package* 18:40:13 (random name drop) I actually met Bawden recently. his passion is system administration, and he just switched to SBCL 18:40:18 one way to solve it is to use keywords 18:40:30 which Bawden? Alan??? 18:40:45 ie, rather than using a symbol interned in your library's package, just use :apple 18:40:46 yes. you were in the room at the time - it was at the Scheme day 18:41:05 lukego: Are we supposed to be impressed? 18:41:10 Adlai: ok, I'll try this. 18:41:17 Adlai: thanks a lot 18:41:18 Fade: yes 18:41:24 gah, none of the fonts in cm-super-x11 seems to be tagged as monospace, so I can't use it in a terminal :( 18:41:25 Fare that is :) 18:41:29 beach: yes! 18:41:29 mnl [n=mnl@vwthunderstorm.de] has joined #lisp 18:41:49 beach: that's the guy who figured out how nested backquotes should work! who hosted the MIT ITS filesystem dumps on the web! 18:41:56 what was he using before? For some reason I was convinced he was a Schemer! 18:42:05 lukego: Wow! You actually *met* Alan Bawden? 18:42:06 I think he was using allegro 18:42:17 beach: that's better! :) 18:42:23 Thanks! 18:42:38 has anyone here got computer modern fonts to work in a terminal? 18:43:22 beach: 3 years isn't a long time. I've been working (on and off, of course) on what would have been my msc topic for nearly 4 years now. 18:43:22 vilson [n=vilson@189-30-76-198.jvece702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 18:43:35 TR2N` [i=email@89-180-209-121.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 18:43:54 I'm currently playing with function objects and my compiler makes me think I'm doing something wrong: http://paste.lisp.org/display/88110 18:44:38 pkhuong: I know! I am getting discouraged by the rules of the Bologna agreement where a PhD is supposed to last 3 years. My reaction for now is that I don't propose any. 18:44:41 fiveop: assoc returns a cons or nil. You probably want to take the (cdr (assoc ...)) 18:45:07 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 18:45:17 ... 18:45:20 thanks :) 18:46:00 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-201-229.net.novis.pt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:46:02 pkhuong: Though if you would want to come to Bordeaux, I am sure we could agree on a PhD topic that would get you a degree within 3 year. 18:46:03 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 18:46:05 s 18:46:26 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:46:58 Fare: the code in the paper is scheme 18:47:12 i think it was used throughout his phd thesis as well 18:47:12 pkhuong: The weather is better here :) 18:47:19 froydnj: I was just pinging to say don't worry about merging stuff for me; I think I can see my way clear 18:47:31 beach: I have it quite good here ;) I'll have to start shopping for a collaboration/post doc in a couple years though. 18:47:44 you don't want to be beach's student 18:47:48 come and be my student instead 18:47:55 you don't propose any PhD? 18:47:59 or postdoc, I'm not fussy 18:48:06 Krystof: hah! I wasn't ponging, I was pinging to ask if you had test cases/numbers for FLONUM-TO-DIGITS; I implemented Burger and Dybvig, Fig. 2...but I'm not sure I did it right 18:48:09 unfair competition! 18:48:38 (Burger and Dybvig seem to punt on printing single-precision numbers, for instance, and I think that has an effect on the tables you use 18:48:40 pkhuong: don't listen to Krystof! He doesn't even have a PhD in CS! 18:49:07 beach: it's all about interdisciplinarity and cross-pollinisation nowadays! 18:49:07 Krystof: but I'm happy I don't have to work out the details of the merge! :) 18:49:16 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:23 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:50:45 froydnj: I do not have test cases. sbcl-devel has a whole heap of bug reports about format ~E~F~G and I got disheartened that I didn't understand what was meant to happen 18:51:02 (I don't even have test cases for the simpler FLONUM-TO-DIGITS) 18:51:02 pkhuong: I have no problem with that. The LaBRI is the fist French university in the Shanhai evaluation in CS. We collaborate with lots of other disciplines. You want to stay in Canada with louzy weather? Not a problem! :) 18:51:04 mfo [i=mfo@orm.abc.se] has joined #lisp 18:51:16 come to the UK for lousy weather! 18:51:29 macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:51:38 *beach* can't beat that! 18:51:44 there's a reason why Ireland is green -- the grass gets watered everyday! 18:51:57 (and for free!) 18:52:54 Krystof: ah, I'd been attempting to see that mine printed the same thing as the existing FLONUM-TO-DIGITS, but on a fairly limited set of test cases 18:52:54 *beach* gets depressed every year at this time, but in the past he just got depressed, and now he is looking forward to going to Vietnam at the end of December. 18:53:05 froydnj: are you concerned about round tripping or optimal length? 18:53:09 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@bl14-73-74.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:53:14 we had 85 continuous day of rain in the fall of 2007 here in bergen 18:53:15 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:53:15 the good news is implementing fig. 2 seems to make things ~30% faster 18:54:06 froydnj: I seem to recall there was a fig. 3 18:54:07 varjag: Bergen? As I recall you get at least twice the annual rainfall of any cities I have lived in, including Auckland. 18:54:19 *Krystof* cracks the whip 18:54:25 pkhuong: neither? I was just concerned that my changes would break the output of flonum-to-digits 18:54:36 incidentally, in my sbcl unicode branch I have upgraded to Unicode 5.2 18:54:54 Krystof: there is a fig. 3...but IIUC, it just changes the digit-generation loop for minimal gain 18:55:00 oh ok 18:55:07 I haven't read the paper since I implemented fig. 1 18:55:14 varjag: pretty much Malmø, Baltimore, Bordeaux, and Auckland all get about 1m/year. 18:55:37 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:56:08 the other interesting thing is that profiling suggests printing fp numbers is bignum-bound 18:56:26 while we're on easy performance improvements: murmur hash for base-strings gives ~8x speed up compared to sxhash. 18:56:27 beach: apparently it's the rainest town in europe 18:56:35 TR2N` [n=email@89-180-210-212.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 18:56:52 varjag: Though, Ho Chi Minh city (where I now spend some time) gets 2m/year. 18:56:58 varjag: Ouch! 18:57:23 rainfall here is 2.5 times of st. petersburg which is pretty damp place 18:57:47 milanj [n=milan@77.46.210.212] has joined #lisp 18:58:08 varjag: That sounds pretty bad. Would you like to move to Bordeaux? 18:58:14 beach: when you come over here, they teach you the most famous poem of a local poet at langauge courses 18:58:19 it is titled 'Regn 18:58:20 ' 18:58:24 (rain) 18:58:26 never mind, that doesn't include the code to expand base chars into full 32 bit chars. 18:58:45 varjag: I know some Norwegian. 18:59:10 Nynorsk? 18:59:11 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:59:14 beach: thanks, but i got a mortgage here to pay down :) 18:59:28 some day to check out the wine maybe :) 18:59:50 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:00:12 Xach: The Bergen dialect is close to Skånska which is my native language, and this (as I understand) is thanks to the Hanseatic league. 19:00:37 varjag: No problem. I'll be around. 19:01:22 now, here's the question. Have I drunk enough wine to attempt this rebase and sober enough to do it right? 19:01:42 Krystof: Hard to tell at a distance. 19:01:42 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:01:56 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:01:58 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:02:21 Damn! I still have to find a way to write the tests for the redisplay code of CLIM3. I have no clue how to do it, other than the "manual" way. 19:03:23 -!- TR2N` [n=email@89-180-210-212.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:03:24 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:03:36 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:03:43 *beach* puts on some music to help him focus. 19:04:34 Dream Theather: Train of thought, way to modern for Krystof! 19:04:45 "too" :-) 19:04:55 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:05:04 Krystof: thanks! 19:06:04 "modernity" 19:06:18 beach: so, clim3 is progressing? 19:07:47 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-91-250.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:07:57 stassats: *very* slowly. 19:09:02 stassats: Scott McKay has always said he would be willing to help out though, which is very nice. 19:10:09 -!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["sudo nmap -A -PN localhost"] 19:10:11 i hope you'll bring some modernity to clim too 19:10:31 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:10:36 stassats: At the moment, I am trying to act upon one of the "major issues" in the CLIM2 spec and see what happens if we try to merge the concepts of sheets, output records, and designs. 19:11:33 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:36 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-209-121.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:12:51 stassats: There is nothing particularly outdated bout CLIM, other than the fact that it is actually trying to increase programmer productive (which is kind of outdated these days, because we no longer care about productivity, but about "user satisfaction"). 19:13:14 fe[nl]ix: where does the +stat-version+ value of 3 in iolib come from? I get EINVAL errors, and setting +stat-version+ to 0 instead fixed them. That's also how my sys/stat.h defines _STAT_VER. 19:13:23 s/productive/productivity/ 19:13:37 coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:00 stassats: So we have a difficult choice! Do we go modern and sacrifice programmer and user productivity or do we still care about those values. As a user of some of my applications, I depend on productivity, so my choice is clear. 19:15:22 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-11-230.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:15:44 well, not everything modern is bad, you can cherry-pick good things 19:15:53 Meh. I'm best satisfied by increased productivity, therefore there is no conflict here for me. 19:16:40 are usability and programmability mutually exclusive? 19:16:42 stassats: Sure, it's just that most of the desires I hear are about decreasing productivity in favor of some vaque concept of "pretty". 19:16:58 tic: I don't think so no. 19:17:15 tic: Not if you count habitability and piecemeal growth. 19:17:27 if i wanted prettiness i'd do the art gallery 19:17:55 nyef: Of course, but you are considered a particularly strange kind of user, at least in the "usability" community. 19:18:25 -!- mnl [n=mnl@vwthunderstorm.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:18:34 For preferring long-term ass-kicking over instantaneous mediocrity? 19:18:58 nyef: Sounds right, yes. 19:20:29 is there a way I can directly pass multiple return values as multiple parameters to a function 19:20:48 clhs m-v-c 19:20:49 MULTIPLE-VALUE-CALL: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_multip.htm 19:20:57 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-64-180.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:21:07 Krystof: There is one piece called "Honor Thy Father" that has some musically interesting features, notably rhythm changes and such. 19:21:39 stassats cheers 19:22:49 So, semi-random thought: What's the state-of-the-art in music appreciation software? Has anyone figured out how to get a computer to like music? 19:23:12 nyef: not that I know. 19:23:29 *beach* goes away to spend time with his (small) family. 19:23:57 trebor_h` [n=email@dslb-084-058-214-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:51 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:32:09 lichtblau: hmmm 19:32:19 lichtblau: what distro is that ? 19:33:58 I'm on Debian. 19:34:20 -!- Blaay|not is now known as Blaay 19:34:29 *lichtblau* doesn't quite see through the jungle of competing *stat calls yet. 19:34:33 I got 19:34:34 #define _STAT_VER_LINUX 3 19:34:34 #define _STAT_VER _STAT_VER_LINUX /* The one defined below. */ 19:34:46 in /usr/include/bits/stat.h 19:34:59 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-43-141.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:35:32 -!- [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.85.100] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:35:52 basically, struct stat has had 2 other incompatible layouts before, and this is for binary compatibility with linux <=2.0 19:36:01 or something like that 19:36:23 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-83.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:36:40 ... On which binary arch? 19:36:59 oh 19:37:07 this is on x86 19:37:31 Adlai: thanks again, keywords work well and I also tried "symbol-name" method as you advised, both work. 19:38:02 freiksenet: imo, keywords are better than calling symbol-name on the symbols you get passed. I guess either one works, though. 19:38:41 lichtblau: are you on x86_64 ? 19:38:50 calling symbol-name makes it more flexible, though -- look at LOOP: you can give it loop keywords from any package (including actual keyword symbols) and it still works the same, because LOOP uses the symbol-name. 19:39:09 -!- trebor_home [n=email@dslb-084-058-231-058.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:39:23 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-83.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:39:49 yeah, I'm on x86_64, and I see different definitions for STAT_VER_LINUX based on 32 vs. 64 bits in /usr/include/bits/stat.h. 19:40:13 What confuses me is that -- if I read the file correctly -- my value should be 1, but that doesn't seem to work. Only 0 works. I'm probably still missing something. 19:41:04 someboy is using gbbopen? 19:43:56 Adlai: I am going to use symbol names just because I already did everything with symbols, so using keywords will force me to rewrite everything :) 19:44:03 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:47 freiksenet: that's fine too, just be aware now that you're not dealing with unique objects -- a string is string= to any string with the same characters, whereas a symbol is only eq to itself. 19:44:51 lichtblau: could you send me a tarball with your /usr/include/{bits,sys} ? 19:45:01 freiksenet: oh, and by the way, you don't have to actually call symbol-name itself 19:45:12 (string= :foo "foo") => NIL 19:45:21 (string= :foo "FOO") => T 19:45:48 I guess my example is better put as (string= :foo 'cl-user::foo) => T 19:45:55 STAT_VER_KERNEL or STAT_VER_LINUX ? 19:46:28 j 19:46:57 oops. Are keywords symbols? do they work like symbols in other cases I mean? 19:47:26 Sure. 19:47:34 Keywords are symbols interned in the keyword package. 19:47:38 freiksenet: yep, they're symbols that are interned in the KEYWORD package 19:47:48 the special thing about them is that they evaluate to themselves. 19:48:09 At least, keywords as keywords, as opposed to argument keywords, which may be keywords but also may be normal symbols, or lambda-list-keywords, which thankfully no longer include "E. 19:48:10 ie, it's like (setf symbol 'symbol) 19:48:11 -!- gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 19:48:12 mnl [n=mnl@vwthunderstorm.de] has joined #lisp 19:48:37 Adlai: Umm... No, it isn't. It's like (defconstant symbol 'symbol). 19:48:50 nyef: true 19:48:56 my mistake. 19:49:25 ok, thanks. maybe I should use them instead, probably eq on symbols is faster that string= 19:49:52 mnl_ [n=mnl@vwthunderstorm.de] has joined #lisp 19:50:19 freiksenet: it's much faster. EQ is basically a single machine instruction 19:51:45 Adlai: ok, thats what I thought. Are keyword often used like this btw? 19:52:23 hmm, I haven't seen -that- much CL code, but I don't think it's an uncommon usage 19:52:47 it seems to me as though keywords are used when you want cross-package symbolic constants 19:54:44 okay %) maybe I will accept keywords as input from other packages and then convert import to normal symbols inside the package. 19:54:48 In case it's not just me not seeing lisppaste: http://paste.lisp.org/display/88071#1 19:55:39 envi_office2 [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 19:56:14 I think that once you've got a keyword as input, you should keep it that way... no reason to waste time importing, unless you specficially care about information in the corresponding symbol of your package 19:56:17 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 19:56:58 mnl__ [n=mnl@ip-90-186-253-113.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 19:58:12 It's not that EQ is a single machine instruction so much as it's a pointer comparison as opposed to a content comparison. 19:58:21 Adlai: yeah, maybe you are right. 19:59:12 phf [n=user@c-76-124-103-85.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:43 Adlai: one more question, external packages in my design pass symbols of types that are later created in package (for example for type tp they should give 'tp). I then can use this symbol for make-instance. But with keywords I can't do this, what do you reccomend in this case? 20:01:46 i figured out my issue from before. (function foo) is not the same as (fdefinition 'foo), though i'm still hazy on the nature of (function foo) 20:02:12 freiksenet: do you mean class? (instead of "type") 20:02:20 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 20:02:33 Adlai: yes, sorry %) 20:02:41 if you need to do that, though, I think you'd need to import the symbols. 20:03:58 Adlai: you mean import symbols from my package to external package? 20:04:40 -!- trebor_h` [n=email@dslb-084-058-214-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:05:14 other way around -- (make-instance (import external-package::something :my-package)) 20:06:03 what about exporting the class name, though, so that code which uses your package can just send the name directly? 20:06:37 Adlai: I guess exporting class name is the best way here, yes. 20:06:46 Thanks a lot again 20:07:05 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:07:21 no problem, I'm glad to help (and be corrected when I get confused myself...) 20:08:25 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:08:27 ok, a question of my own for a moment... does progn -need- to be a macro? 20:08:50 <_3b> IMPORT returns t, doesn't seem useful to pass that to make-instance... 20:08:52 couldn't it theoretically just be (defun progn (&rest forms) (car (last forms))) ? 20:09:07 -!- mnl [n=mnl@vwthunderstorm.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:09:29 Adlai: progn needs to be a special form 20:09:35 freiksenet: note what _3b said... exporting the class is probably the cleanest solution. 20:09:50 <_3b> (progn (values 1 2 3)) doesn't work with &rest 20:09:50 schme: what's wrong with defining it like that? 20:10:01 ah, true. Multiple values. 20:10:06 Adlai: hyperspec says it is a special operator. That's what be wrong (: 20:10:22 schme: the hyperspec also says that let* is a special operator... 20:10:24 hyperspec says so not without a reason 20:10:24 <_3b> also, top-level stuff 20:10:36 horray for lot* 20:10:39 let* 20:10:41 _3b: right, I forgot about that "fancy CL bloat" :) 20:10:41 damnit. 20:10:49 less vodka more irc :P 20:11:00 other way around. *goes away* 20:11:02 *schme* away zzz 20:11:05 what 20:11:11 *Adlai* fails to tab-complete "min" to "minion: ", and is sad. 20:11:24 -!- phf [n=user@c-76-124-103-85.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:11:34 i'm sure he's missing you too :) 20:13:24 Adlai: "An implementation is free to implement a Common Lisp special operator as a macro." 20:13:35 Adlai: or did you want to make let* a function? 20:14:46 stassats: yes -- a macro-function, to be precise 20:15:17 that's a macro, don't fool with your clhs-talk 20:15:24 s/fool/fool me/ 20:18:19 envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 20:18:29 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@85.4.220.156] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 20:19:01 -!- mnl_ [n=mnl@vwthunderstorm.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:21:15 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 20:22:44 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229143209.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 20:23:03 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=win7@217.149.190.125] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:23:56 froydnj: are you still around? 20:25:17 *beach* is back 20:26:03 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:30:48 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229143209.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:32:52 TR2N [i=email@89.180.177.41] has joined #lisp 20:33:37 -!- mnl__ [n=mnl@ip-90-186-253-113.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Read error: 105 (No buffer space available)] 20:33:49 -!- jeti [n=jeti@p548EF67D.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 20:35:49 _8david [n=user@port-92-195-72-12.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:35:54 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:36:44 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:37:10 -!- _icecube_ [n=icecube@p549C700E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:37:38 _icecube_ [n=icecube@p549C700E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:47 -!- envi_office2 [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:39:16 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:40:49 -!- kerimbasol [n=kerim@85.107.139.82] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:41:22 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-97-60.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:41:26 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:41:49 KingNato [n=patno@84-217-4-89.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:54 illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:49 phf [n=user@c-76-124-103-85.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:59 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.210.212] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:43:10 -!- Blaay is now known as Blaay|not 20:44:24 redblue [i=star@ppp093.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:45:03 wedgeV [n=wedge@cpe90-146-32-187.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 20:46:34 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:46:35 azuk` [i=azure@s2.org] has joined #lisp 20:48:02 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 20:51:34 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:52:22 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 20:53:18 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 20:54:45 francogrex [n=user@91.178.117.7] has joined #lisp 20:55:58 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229143209.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 21:02:56 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:25 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:06:17 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:07:00 -!- Adlai is now known as god 21:07:08 -!- god is now known as Adlai 21:07:54 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-0-199.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:09:51 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:45 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:14:06 //apparent success (reached end of run-tests.sh normally) 21:14:11 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 21:15:24 Krystof: isn't that a big failure? 21:15:31 A failure to demonstrate any bug. 21:15:36 Where's the proof? 21:15:37 :-) 21:16:21 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.178.117.7] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:16:48 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:16:51 Isn't a test suite a way of saying "look at all these things that we worry about and bugs we used to have but don't anymore"? 21:17:03 francogrex [n=user@91.178.117.7] has joined #lisp 21:17:10 well, you don't want regressions. 21:17:32 Probably. But there may still be holes in the regression testing. 21:17:36 ... Funny, I thought I had a whole book on regression somethingorothers. 21:17:37 tests can only ever test the presence of bugs, never the absence. 21:17:42 We should invert success/failure of tests. 21:17:43 you almost all know the project euler right? 21:17:51 I was thinking 21:17:57 The test fails when it cannot find any bug. It succeeds when it finds bugs. 21:18:21 -!- phf [n=user@c-76-124-103-85.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:19:05 why don't we set up a sort of contest to write a CL code for some problems; we'll probably all arrive at a final solution, that's not the issue 21:19:32 but the contest would be about the most elegant and most optimal code 21:19:41 francogrex i'm sure some people have used lisp 21:19:47 Give the size of normal unproved software, there are always bugs. So really a test that doesn't find any is a failure. 21:19:55 the implementation language is open if i remember 21:20:06 there was a suggestion to have coding parties at Boston Lisp Meeting... if only we can agree on something to code 21:20:18 Guthur: yes i'm sure, but just between us, as an aside 21:20:24 Fare, have a gamejam 21:20:30 the Haskell group wrote together a solution to some puzzle last time, I'm told it was fun 21:20:35 what's a gamejam? 21:20:36 I'm thinking to bring a spare introductory lisp book or two next BLM. 21:20:59 Fare: take the CPAN index, start at "A" ;) 21:21:04 make a game in a weekend, check global game jam, there is also some challenge to do it 24 hours i think 21:21:05 *Adlai* doesn't like how Project Euler calls it "LISP" 21:21:13 francogrex: fyi, http://projecteuler.net/index.php?section=scores&language=LISP 21:21:24 Fare: yes that also is good, like that we learn from each other (well actually we learn most from the more exerienced) 21:22:03 fare that last comment of mine was for you, sorry forgot to add your name 21:22:15 Adlai, yes so i know the place 21:22:56 francogrex: I'm just saying, it's not as though there aren't already Lispers who tackle these problems 21:23:00 i'm doing a remake of MULE at the minute in purely functional lisp 21:23:30 ok, I don't have time to think about it. Can I delegate someone as the BostonLisp programming puzzle czar? 21:23:32 or pope 21:23:34 or mome 21:23:47 *Adlai* mutters something about #emacs being that way => 21:23:52 Adlai: right, that's very good, I know. I can solve almost all the puzzels really, but my code is the worst ever 21:24:15 it may not work out though, because i have 1: never programmed pure functional 2: made any significant lisp program and 3: ever actually played MULE 21:25:07 so it would not be about the solution or finding it, but about the *way* used to arrive there 21:25:14 Guthur: what is MULE? I thought you were talking about the Emacs multilingual env. 21:25:30 some game from the early 80's 21:25:41 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-0-199.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:56 M*U*L*E? I never did manage to get into that... 21:26:00 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.U.L.E. 21:26:07 another activity might be "take some cool algorithm/datastructure in another language, see how it can be done in Lisp" 21:26:27 -!- vilson [n=vilson@189-30-76-198.jvece702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:26:29 nyef ya 21:26:40 emacs23 has correct mule + utf8 support at long last. That rocks. 21:26:43 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 21:27:07 fare: yes that would also be good 21:27:17 -!- Adlai is now known as god 21:27:22 -!- god is now known as Adlai 21:27:42 rather than puzzles that really bring nothing much in the end. 21:28:19 we could even have teams of CL, Scheme, PLT Scheme, Clojure, etc., programmers compare their results at the end. 21:28:37 Fare: and Arc and Newlisp too, right? 21:28:52 suuuuure 21:29:04 *Adlai* hot-tails it out the rom 21:29:05 *room 21:31:03 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:32:08 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:34:13 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177144233.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 21:43:25 mnl [n=mnl@ip-90-186-135-185.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 21:44:08 -!- mnl [n=mnl@ip-90-186-135-185.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:45:13 rvirding [n=chatzill@h52n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:52:03 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 21:53:48 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:54:15 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-128-225.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:55:34 ak701 [n=ak70@195.158.93.230] has joined #lisp 21:58:03 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:04:44 Adlai` [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:05:02 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:05:09 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 22:06:06 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-128-225.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:08:39 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.178.117.7] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:08:51 quasimodo [n=quassel@s142-59-200-239.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:31 -!- quasimodo is now known as kimboslice 22:09:58 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-227-242.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:07 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-83.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:10:25 Krystof: back, but I imagine you're gone now 22:10:40 -!- Blaay|not [i=Blay@BSN-142-173-42.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [] 22:10:41 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"] 22:12:25 not quite 22:12:30 but I've just sent you mail anyway 22:13:07 I will probably regret staying up this late to rebase my tree in the morning, but this was really the only time it was vaguely possible 22:13:30 I will regret it because I should have been working on my lecture & labs & paper & grant proposals & argh 22:13:38 and also because it is now late. G'night :) 22:15:21 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-128-225.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:15:22 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:16:12 -!- ak701 [n=ak70@195.158.93.230] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:16:12 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:16:36 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:17:18 ak701 [n=ak70@195.158.93.230] has joined #lisp 22:19:23 -!- dwh_ [n=dwh@ppp118-208-156-57.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:21:42 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-142-61.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:22:18 envi_office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 22:22:19 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:25:40 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:30:05 -!- kimboslice [n=quassel@s142-59-200-239.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:32:18 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:30 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:33:41 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@173.176.100.238] has joined #lisp 22:34:09 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest37135 22:36:23 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A05B5.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:36:42 -!- Guest37135 is now known as pkhuong 22:37:36 how do I discard a function implementation? I am running into a problem because I want to redefine my generic function but it has a different lambda list. Lisp is throwing an error and there is no option to redefine the function anyway 22:38:05 clhs fmakunbound 22:38:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fmakun.htm 22:41:07 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:41:54 pkhuong: thanks 22:45:29 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-45.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:45:43 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:48:30 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 105 (No buffer space available)] 22:50:57 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-84-210.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:51:04 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 22:51:29 -!- envi_office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:52:15 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 22:52:55 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp093.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:53:12 benny [n=benny@i577A00BA.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:53:49 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:11 redblue [i=star@ppp098.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:56:29 -!- macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["day overflow"] 22:58:35 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-230-238.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:14 okay so, if I have a class with an initialize-instance :after method, and I subclass it, and I want to write my own behavior for init-inst :after for that class, is there a way to override the super's init? 23:01:26 *sykopomp* knows the answer, but is hoping for sane suggestions. 23:01:44 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cpe90-146-32-187.liwest.at] has quit [] 23:01:57 I'd imagine that it depends on the method-combination used for initialize-instance. 23:02:15 clhs init-instance 23:02:15 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for init-instance. 23:02:21 clhs initialize-instance 23:02:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_init_i.htm 23:05:21 Okay, per 7.1.6 it uses standard method combination... 23:07:02 I'm going to go with "no, you're screwed". 23:07:15 Per 7.6.6.2 about after methods. 23:08:08 nyef: yeah, I was wondering more about design approaches, but it's fairly obvious that "screwed" is right. 23:08:30 Well, actually, the definition is that the most-specific :after method runs last, so if you don't mind the behavior of the superclass after method you should be okay. 23:09:07 nyef: yeah, that would suck :) 23:09:20 And if you -do- mind it, then either the superclass is badly designed with respect to your requirements or you're trying to do something a bit beyond the pale. 23:09:54 nyef: it's more that I was thinking of conveniently using it in a certain case, but the subclass is so trivial that it may as well be a sibling. 23:10:11 having to rewrite three one-liner methods isn't exactly the end of the world ;D 23:13:15 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.83] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:15:04 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16841F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:15:09 sykopomp: you could use find-method and replace the supers method with one that is conditionalized to your subclass... 23:15:24 but that's a horrible idea, i'd say you're doign it wrong. 23:15:38 drewc: or I could do what I should be doing, and go a little OO happy (as adlai put it) and define me some 'abstract' classes to define the interface on. 23:16:06 sykopomp: yeah, that's the better way to do it. don't fight the object system, mixins are your friend :) 23:16:14 sykopomp: definitely sounds like you want an abstract class and an implementation of that interface. 23:16:29 this doesn't even need mixins, actually. it's a straight-up single-inheritance hierarchy :) 23:16:38 -!- nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:17:29 *sykopomp* prepares to eat his words. 23:18:13 drewc: do you do anything in particular when you create a class specifically meant to be abstract? (any markings/insurance?) or do you just plop it on there? 23:18:14 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 23:18:39 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:40 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:18:46 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 23:19:09 sykopomp: how about :documentation ? 23:20:00 pkhuong: that sounds as good as anything ;) 23:20:07 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-132-92-40.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 23:21:01 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-45-9.w90-59.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:21:44 jasber [n=bjasper@173-26-98-219.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 23:25:58 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:27:41 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 23:28:08 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:28:08 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 23:29:22 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@118.43.201.120] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:34:54 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:32 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 23:37:54 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:37:56 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 23:37:58 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-238.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:40:35 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:43:25 udzinari [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:49:59 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:51:06 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"]