00:01:38 yes i read that, thanks, i try solve the problem fast, i'll return to it trying solve in a good way thanks nyef 00:02:10 v86 [n=v86@unaffiliated/v86] has joined #lisp 00:02:45 -!- v86 [n=v86@unaffiliated/v86] has left #lisp 00:04:08 dudes 00:04:20 how about the Final Solution to the Lisp/2 Question 00:04:31 if it's lexically bound, use the value, if not, use the function cell 00:04:36 ... Kill all the Lisp-2s? 00:05:21 before that i thought like, 'if it's not a plain symbol or (cons (eql lambda) t) prepend 'funcall 00:05:46 but it's not that bad, actually. FUNCALL is generally only used in higher-order functions 00:05:55 well, duh, that's the definition 00:05:56 what problem are we trying to solve, exactly? 00:06:14 piso, writign FUNCALL 00:06:25 like, (funcall fn ...) instead of (fn ...) 00:06:29 How to shut people up that talk about Lisp-1 / Lisp-2 as being a problem rather than a difference in style. 00:06:29 and that is a problem because... ? 00:06:59 but lisp/2 has the benefit of a mindset where symbols designate stuff and not point to values 00:07:25 like, schemers put class objects as global lexical values of symbols like ' 00:07:38 which is retarded from cl perspective 00:07:48 (incf nyef) 00:07:51 I dunno what you're talking about...symbols *SO* point to values in CL. 00:08:06 Ugh. I -know- I managed to find a softcopy of the Klatt paper, but it doesn't appear to be in any of the places I'd expect to have put it. 00:08:17 foom, well in CL it's common to do (find-class 'foo) instead of making point to a class instance 00:08:22 nyef: klatt? 00:08:33 sykopomp: Speech synthesis from 1980. 00:08:38 ooh 00:08:42 deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 00:08:56 That classic "robotic voice" that sounds absolutely horrible, yet is still intelligable. 00:09:27 aerique, there? 00:09:32 weirdo: sure, that's because CL isn't a lisp-2 it's a lisp-N. 00:09:44 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:09:52 foom, but there's no 'class' symbol cell 00:10:02 weirdo: in which implementation? 00:10:20 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.214.115] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 00:10:37 there's no 'function' cell for symbols in sbcl either 00:10:37 Heh. Someone has an optimistic quit message. 00:10:40 foom, well there are only function, special value, property list, macro and compiler macro cells 00:10:48 just because it's not called "symbol-class" doesn't mean that 00:10:57 that just means the designers didn't do a very good job 00:10:58 jsnell: There isn't? 00:11:05 jsnell, :o 00:11:26 no, the functions are stored in an external table, indexed by symbol (to a first approximation) 00:11:27 Hunh. Guess there isn't. 00:11:30 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-227.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:11:37 which is pretty much exactly the same as for classes 00:11:38 but if there's only special-value-cell then CL is a lisp-1 too! 00:11:57 weirdo: ugh 00:12:07 Please tell me that said external table isn't the infodb? 00:12:11 I think you've misunderstood what the lisp-n refers to 00:12:32 nyef: sorry, I can't lie to you 00:13:51 the separate namespaces can equally well be a compile-time as runtime property 00:13:58 The most obvious way you can tell that symbols in CL point to values is that there is such a thing as "packages". 00:14:21 for example (flet ((foo ())) (let (foo) ...)) ;; nothing stored in any kind of slot 00:14:42 oh, and of course on sbcl the symbol-value might not be stored in the symbol either, but in (you guessed it), an external table 00:14:59 (though thankfully not the infodb, but the thread structure) 00:15:53 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 00:15:53 In sane systems you don't have packages for symbols, but instead, namespaces for values. 00:16:06 with that, bye, dinner. :) 00:22:17 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-68-145.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:22:34 but good job, sbcl devs, on not having an actual function slot in the symbol struct 00:23:11 so having lotsa' gensyms only conses as much as it's really necessary 00:23:29 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:26:24 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:22 Just don't special-bind the gensyms on a threaded system. 00:29:23 leadnose [i=leadnose@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 00:29:48 Angrybea1dman [n=Part@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:13 JohnnyL [i=excellen@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:31 why not? 00:30:48 lemuel [n=ltyphair@ppp-70-246-92-216.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:00 thread-local space limited to 4k symbols 00:31:23 -!- Angrybea1dman [n=Part@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:32:05 oh, ok 00:33:54 -!- lemuel [n=ltyphair@ppp-70-246-92-216.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:34:30 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:48 -!- Angrybeardman [n=Part@68.147.21.90] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:36:43 -!- JohnnyL [i=excellen@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 00:37:05 musictmp [n=musictmp@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:30 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441541.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:39:41 proun [n=proun@74.77.140.113] has joined #lisp 00:42:16 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:20 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 00:43:03 -!- mbishop_ is now known as mbishop 00:44:34 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:46:24 all of my bindings are special, each and every one 00:47:39 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@59.167.195.42] has quit ["Changing server"] 00:49:33 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:51:10 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:52:56 S11001001: you use elisp? 00:53:34 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:57:53 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:58:18 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:59:04 sure, but you can't leave out the common lisp bindings just 'cause they're a little different 01:07:20 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-lxnhdqlkdfutmhtk] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:08:17 -!- Axioplas1_ is now known as Axioplase 01:17:04 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 01:18:09 -!- HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:18:23 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:22:45 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-67-162.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:24:29 http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/ How out of date is this?... 01:27:33 it's up-to-date 01:28:16 fe[nl]ix: is hunchentoot:start-server really old, or really new? 01:28:27 *sykopomp* checks to make sure his ht is up to date. 01:29:08 sykopomp: it's been part of the API for as long as I remember 01:29:47 fe[nl]ix: it's not even listed in the documentation page I linked. 01:30:01 so which one is it? 01:30:08 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:30:11 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:30:26 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954F5AA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:30:27 version 1.0 was a major rewrite 01:30:33 so apparently it's gone 01:30:43 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:50 so the documentation is potentially quite outdated, right? 01:31:21 what documentation? 01:31:34 documentation at weitz.de is up to date 01:32:06 Does froydnj show up here still? 01:32:12 -!- thedonvaughn [i=jvaughn@unaffiliated/printk] has left #lisp 01:32:18 rtoym: yes 01:32:56 Ok. Maybe I'll just send him an email instead. (Ironclad is slightly broken on cmucl/sparc.) 01:33:22 rtoym: doh 01:33:24 rtoym: the key with which you signed the release doesn't appear to be in the public pgp network 01:34:04 illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:37 froydnj: Hey! Simple bug: fill-buffer-ub8/64 (or something like that) has #+(and cmucl big-endian). The call to bit-bash-copy doesn't work because cmucl doesn't have 64-bit simple arrays. 01:35:44 fe[nl]ix: Yeah, I've been lazy about uploading my keys anywhere. 01:36:30 rtoym: oh. well, that's easily fixed, I suppose. 01:36:55 rtoym: even on x86-64? 01:37:28 cmucl runs on x86-64? 01:37:33 froydnj: I just removed the (and cmucl big-endian)) from that function. 01:37:47 rtoym: oh, I suppose it's also busted on sbcl/ppc, then. gah, need to fix. 01:38:04 stassats, froydnj: Of course cmucl runs on x86-64. But only in 32-bit mode. :-( 01:38:13 aw 01:38:39 *rtoym* has x86-64 on his list of things to do. One of many. 01:40:07 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:40:57 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 01:41:17 froydnj: With that change, all of the tests pass on cmucl/sparc. 01:41:20 reaching down into implementation innards sometimes causes problems like this. there's lots of things I'd like to specialize for sbcl, but I worry about things breaking if/when sbcl yanks the rug out from underneath 01:41:55 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.181.248] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:42:01 rtoym: great! thanks for checking. 01:42:48 froydnj: No problem. I use ironclad once in a while as a regression test. Sometimes cmucl regresses, sometimes ironclad. :-) 01:42:58 :) 01:47:06 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 01:52:13 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 01:52:53 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:54:06 fe[nl]ix: Any issues with cmucl 20a on Gentoo? 01:56:23 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 01:56:29 Greetings. 01:59:19 NeXTMagus [n=frank@adsl-152-251-74.mco.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:56 rtoym: no bugs encountered yet 02:00:41 Cool. Any more info about that issue you mentioned a while back? 02:00:50 rtoym: but I noticed that cl:directory doesn't quite work on a directory containing broken symlinks 02:01:06 it calls cl:truename on the filename, which then signals an error 02:02:04 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:02:21 Does it work better if you (cl:directory foo :truenamep nil)? 02:02:30 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@140a.hackerdojo.com] has quit [] 02:03:11 yes 02:03:16 Or maybe :follow-links should be nil. 02:03:38 I don't know the history, but :truenamep defaults to T. 02:03:39 but it would be better if you considered a broken symlink's truename to be itself 02:03:42 -!- Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:04:10 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:04:12 Hmm. Good point. 02:04:18 clhs truename 02:04:18 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_tn.htm 02:05:54 -!- NeXTMagus [n=frank@adsl-152-251-74.mco.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:08:46 huangjs pasted "bug in stream close?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88056 02:12:29 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:12:40 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 02:14:26 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:28 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-67-162.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:16:44 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 02:19:47 Hmm. I guess it depends on what it means that for a file that can't be located. 02:24:59 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:25:46 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 02:26:20 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 02:30:35 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:52 keltor [n=keltor@unaffiliated/keltor] has joined #lisp 02:33:10 *keltor* pokes Ralith. 02:36:30 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-122-238.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 02:39:36 keebler [n=Christop@75.22.146.79] has joined #lisp 02:40:19 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:42:32 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-122-238.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:42:39 Quiet chan indeed. 02:42:47 :) 02:42:57 rtoym: a broken symlink is certainly a file that got located 02:43:39 rtoym: the only case if file that can't be located that comes to my mind is one found in a directory for which you don't have access 02:44:28 rtoym: so if you get EACCESS you can't really know whether the file exists or not 02:44:38 I'm a little confused. If I list a broken link, 'ls broken-link', the result is 'No such file or directory'. 02:44:57 rtoym: but you have a broken symlink when you get ENOENT or ELOOP 02:45:48 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:04 fe[nl]ix: Would you mind bringing this up on the mailing list? Only because this changes existing behavior. 02:46:14 tmh: I think you did a "ls broken-link/" <- notice the final slash 02:46:25 ropert [n=user@CPE00222d12ee72-CM00222d12ee6e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:46:34 fe[nl]ix: No, I'll paste. 02:46:39 hmmm 02:46:59 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 02:47:12 rtoym: I'll do that tomorrow morning 02:47:26 fe[nl]ix: Much appreciated. 02:47:30 tmh pasted "broken link" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88058 02:48:57 huangjs pasted "fixnum calling convention confusion" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88059 02:48:59 tmh: interesting, my shell doesn't do that 02:49:00 But, I think you can modify the behavior of ls with respect to links. 02:49:05 -!- Makoryu` [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Absquatulandus sum"] 02:49:49 tmh: I use bash 4.0 and it seems to test for a broken symlink before trying to dereference it 02:50:10 why is there only one package namespace? --and what is the conventional workaround? 02:50:50 fe[nl]ix: I have ls aliased to 'ls -hFH', -H is 'follow symbolic links listed on the command line'. That's the reason. 02:51:03 Just occurred to me. 02:51:07 -!- keebler [n=Christop@75.22.146.79] has left #lisp 02:51:12 oh 02:52:19 *Ralith* pokes keltor 02:52:29 Maybe CMUCL should have an implementation dependent key to DIRECTORY that lets you specify how you want links handled. 02:52:31 huangjs: What's the problem? Looks ok to me. 02:53:01 rtoym: foo treats the arg as a machien integer, 02:53:01 s/should/could/ 02:53:08 tmh: Already does. :truenamep and :follow-links. 02:53:27 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:53:28 but the assembly of baz didn't show any difference between calling foo and calling bar. I don't understand. 02:53:45 lsk2 [n=lsk2_4@122.116.5.215] has joined #lisp 02:54:30 I think sbcl's disassembler leaves out stuff. CMUCL shows that the arg is right-shifted by 2 to convert the fixnum arg to a 32-bit value. 02:54:44 brb 02:54:59 rtoym: Ah, well, then what was the problem? NM, I'll look at the logs. 02:57:52 *rtoym* doesn't like that aspect of the sbcl disassembler. 03:01:34 i was thinking of implementing a filename translator -- might as well use something like Genera's directory path strings (it already almost matches the packaging syntax) but letting the package system subsume the filesystem (looking forward to having a virtual-memory instead of filesystem). 03:04:41 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 03:05:51 *Ralith* pokes keltor some more 03:06:09 whooo 03:06:20 sorry it's not highlighting the pokes. 03:06:26 broken irssi 03:06:31 So i was wondering about the rationale behind the unnested packages. 03:06:56 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-0-199.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:02 keltor: so you wanted to talk about something? 03:07:09 in here apparently? 03:07:57 nah 03:08:02 #reprap is fine 03:08:09 *keltor* waves. 03:08:10 -!- keltor [n=keltor@unaffiliated/keltor] has left #lisp 03:09:38 lpolzer 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by peer)] 03:20:15 -!- ropert [n=user@CPE00222d12ee72-CM00222d12ee6e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:21:20 j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has joined #lisp 03:24:59 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-235-032.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:25:15 ropert [n=user@CPE00222d12ee72-CM00222d12ee6e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:26:51 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:30:03 -!- lsk2 [n=lsk2_4@122.116.5.215] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:36:43 ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 03:37:10 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:38:07 (unless (typep name '(member string symbol)) (signal 'json-invalid-name-type))) <-- idiomatic type checking? 03:38:57 fusss: why not declare a type yourself, then do (typep name 'json-valid-name)? 03:42:22 -!- ropert [n=user@CPE00222d12ee72-CM00222d12ee6e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:45:16 how about the unless/signal combination? 03:45:27 I was hoping to let check-type signal something other than error 03:50:47 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:27 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:32 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:56:42 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-218-233.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:42 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 03:59:55 Good morning! 03:59:59 (assert (typep place type) (place) 'json-invalid-name-type) ? 04:07:42 rtoym: probably the disassembly didn't show all the code. 04:07:44 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:09:11 fgtech^ [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 04:09:50 so i have a something that takes a number (func 5) works, but (func x) complains about x not being a REAL - though i let'd it to 5? 04:09:57 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:11:28 ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.30] has joined #lisp 04:11:32 minion: lisppaste? 04:11:33 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 04:11:44 proun: paste your code 04:12:23 (you didn't quote x, did you?) 04:12:57 no, ill paste 04:17:41 proun pasted "no real" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88062 04:19:13 UNIFORMF is a macros, it doesn't seem to evaluate its second argument 04:19:18 Morning beach. 04:19:19 gigamonkey, memo from Adlai: (herep c@w) => T !!! 04:20:14 stassats: so is there a way to evaluate before and pass it in? 04:22:28 actually, it's a function, its compiler macro seems to be broken 04:23:30 so it's not just me then. i should post it to the cl-opengl list then? 04:25:14 -!- musictmp [n=musictmp@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:28:30 [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.86.100] has joined #lisp 04:28:39 legumbre_ [n=user@190.135.11.83] has joined #lisp 04:31:01 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:33:51 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:02 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:36:12 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:25 stassats annotated #88062 "a patch" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88062#1 04:39:51 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:40:21 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:35 proun: does it work? 04:44:54 stassats: yeah just tried it and it seems just fine - awesome, thanks! 04:45:19 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 04:46:22 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-57-96.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:46:31 are you subscribed to cl-opengl ML? if so, report it 04:46:34 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.30] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:47:00 doing it now :) 04:47:07 hello 04:51:17 Angrybeardman [n=Part@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:25 slime-asdf can burn in hell 05:09:51 ? 05:10:07 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:10:09 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0A04.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:10:38 it opened up 77 goddamn buffers that I don't give a crap about. 05:10:49 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 05:13:54 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 05:15:41 benny [n=benny@i577A0A04.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:18:41 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 05:20:26 lsk2 [n=lsk2_4@122.116.5.215] has joined #lisp 05:20:32 -!- fgtech^ 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joined #lisp 05:42:43 morning 05:45:28 -!- milanj [n=milan@91.150.119.100] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:47:05 -!- Angrybeardman [n=Part@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [""] 05:47:05 hello splittist 05:47:05 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:47:23 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:47:48 beach: how goes your networking class? 05:48:19 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-218-233.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:48:21 splittist: Fine! I am learning new stuff every week. 05:49:00 *beach* takes off for work, and will be back later as spiaggia or plage. 05:49:26 -!- proun [n=proun@74.77.140.113] has quit ["leaving"] 05:51:46 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.50.31] has joined #lisp 05:51:46 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:52:00 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:02:52 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:03:07 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:04:44 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 06:11:04 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:11:17 fgtech^ [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 06:15:14 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:16:30 redblue [i=star@ppp100.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 06:16:47 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-116-82.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:18:03 Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has joined #lisp 06:23:06 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 06:27:10 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 06:31:32 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-14-150.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:33:28 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:35:32 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:37:21 serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06c4f7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:26 good morning 06:39:04 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has left #lisp 06:40:01 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 06:41:16 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:41:58 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 06:42:20 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-206-32-253.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:42:39 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.83] has joined #lisp 06:46:07 sykopomp: is chanl using STM techniques? 06:46:56 lharc: nope, it's implemented with just locks and condition-vars/semaphores 06:47:07 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-1-248.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:47:07 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 06:47:20 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76.10.149.209] has joined #lisp 06:47:37 sykopomp: have you thought about replacing that with sbcl's compare-and-swap? 06:48:48 lharc: I haven't. I'm trying to make it as portable as possible, and locks are needed for the blocking behavior anyway (unless I misunderstand how c-a-s works) 06:49:31 lharc: you can implement channels on top of STM easily, though, like ramarren did: http://github.com/Ramarren/cl-transactional/blob/master/tests/tchan.lisp 06:50:49 sykopomp: no locking needed if all writers agrees on using CAS. The point with STM is that you avoid locking. But I wonder how do you avoid starvation? 06:51:15 is Stanislaw Halik around here? 06:51:28 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 06:51:29 lharc: "deadlocks are a bug. Fix them" -Rob Pike 06:52:35 lharc: Pike argues that having higher-level abstractions like channels makes it much easier to find where the heck starvation/deadlock/etc is happening. At least that's what I got from his talk on csp. 06:52:38 lharc: and the readers would busy look while waiting for something to process? 06:53:52 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:53:59 s/look/loop/ 06:54:02 attila_lendvai: yes, spin with a small sleep 06:54:51 dunno... then i'd prefer a lock. i don't like code like firefox that uses up 10% of my cpu while minimized... 06:55:23 some of the operations in chanl still thrash until they succeed, unfortunately 06:55:28 namely, the select-like ops. 06:55:37 attila_lendvai: agreed, would love to have an sbcl thing (spin-until-true place). 06:55:55 isn't that the point of condition-vars, anyways? 06:57:59 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-244-243.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:58:12 sykopomp: as far as i can see, yes. 06:58:33 sykopomp: can you avoid locking if using conditional vars? 06:59:24 lharc: I believe no. I'm not sure if all implementations actually require locking to happen around whatever bt wraps as condition-wait, but BT certainly requires it, and that's what I use. 06:59:50 lharc: conditional vars go along with a lock in pair. i guess you should read up on them before we get any deeper in STM/looping territory 06:59:52 although you don't need to hold a lock in order to notify 07:00:52 the idea of a conditional var is to go to sleep until some event. going to sleep involves a semaphore, is one form or another... 07:01:09 s/is/in/ 07:01:24 lharc: oh, and if you want to actually try chanl out, I recommend you pull from my devel branch, instead of using the tagged version. There's a lot of fixes, but I'm waiting on adlai to actually tag the new one. 07:02:24 Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 07:05:00 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 07:05:05 sykopomp: sure, I thing I have your github url. 07:06:18 http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:mt_o0gCKFuMJ:coding.derkeiler.com/pdf/Archive/Lisp/comp.lang.lisp/2009-03/msg00154.pdf+sbcl+compare-and-swap&hl=en&gl=us&sig=AFQjCNFLqYwnux1opS2dnPzZPPFsiC2fQA This certainly makes CAS seem worthwhile. Perhaps a #+sbcl in the code might be a good idea... 07:07:12 minion: chanl 07:07:13 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``chanl''. 07:07:34 guaqua: http://github.com/sykopomp/chanl/tree/devel 07:07:58 thanks, sykopomp 07:08:56 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:10:26 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 07:11:20 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 07:11:40 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 07:11:57 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 07:18:57 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-206-10-94.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:20:23 -!- futuranon [n=futurano@67.207.144.254] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:20:34 rudi [n=rudi@129.27.202.101] has joined #lisp 07:21:00 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:21:08 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:21:20 anyone have a short example on cl-prevalence? 07:21:44 fusss: bknr.datastore seemed better than cl-prevalence 07:21:54 as in, more production-ready/supported 07:25:36 ASau [n=user@host112-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:26:02 sykopomp: i really don't have time to learn something as big as bknr 07:26:41 i just wanna serialize some clos objects with primitive datatypes to disk, temporarily, without the overhead of an rdbms 07:26:53 cl-store may do what you want 07:27:01 i have used rucksack for that purpose before .. but rucksack is a weird thing sometimes 07:27:08 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-243-087.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:27:15 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:27:27 a-s` [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 07:28:19 there's also manardb, fusss 07:28:25 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp100.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 07:28:36 futuranon [n=futurano@67-207-144-254.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 07:28:50 guaqua: i know of manar; i am storing configuration info and metadata 07:29:05 i have extended/wrapped montezuma to store user-defined document templates 07:29:20 -!- scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:29:23 scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 07:29:28 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:29:55 Dodek_ [n=dodek@sandbox.dbc.wroc.pl] has joined #lisp 07:29:55 i want to persist the template types to disk to load after a montezuma shutdown 07:30:06 xristos: cl-store looks clean, cheers! 07:30:16 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:30:18 -!- Dodek [n=dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:30:20 -!- ski [n=slj@c-c110e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:30:24 ski [n=slj@c-c110e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:30:30 -!- pragma_ [n=pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:30:34 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:30:34 pragma_ [n=pragma@blackshell.com] has joined #lisp 07:30:34 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:30:37 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:39 -!- herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:30:50 herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 07:31:03 -!- pragma_ is now known as Guest80229 07:31:16 this is what i mean by clean: 07:31:24 (store 0 "/tmp/counter") 07:31:26 (incf (restore "/tmp/counter")) 07:32:31 yeah it is refreshing 07:32:53 trivial to add to make thread-safe as well, with bt mutexes 07:33:17 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has joined #lisp 07:33:48 (with-lock-held (db-file) (store 0 (file-name db-file))) etc. 07:34:15 +- accessors :-) 07:35:10 sykopomp: easy APIs are the most production ready. I will take ironclad over CL+SSL+MD5+Base64+other-stuff 07:35:43 fusss: only using bknr.indices and bknr.datastore is actually pretty simple. I found it very easy to set up and use. 07:36:14 simple, right after you solve the dependency hell 07:36:48 good point :P 07:37:31 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [] 07:38:04 -!- rudi [n=rudi@129.27.202.101] has quit [] 07:38:07 male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:22 is it my idea or did describe use to show contents of hashtable ? 07:38:25 fusss: cl-serializer is something like cl-store, but it's slicker... 07:38:36 because on .31 here it no longer does 07:38:57 i must add that i'm a co-author, though 07:39:32 rudi [n=rudi@129.27.202.101] has joined #lisp 07:40:27 the inspector shows content still, xristos (swank:inspect-in-emacs (alist-hash-table '((a 1) (b 2) (c 3)))) 07:40:53 -!- rudi [n=rudi@129.27.202.101] has quit [Client Quit] 07:41:37 rudi [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 07:44:30 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:47:17 -!- Guest80229 is now known as pragma_ 07:47:22 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 07:49:07 attila_lendvai: cl-serializer just exports two symbols :-) 07:50:39 attila_lendvai: add a downloadable link to cliki so asdf-install can find it, please 07:50:56 -!- prip [n=_prip@host54-197-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:51:12 prip [n=_prip@host54-197-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 07:53:27 fusss: we don't bother with asdf-install, it's more trouble than it helps... just darcs get the repo 07:54:07 mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6BEAC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:21 fusss: i think an out of the box fallback to a generic method whith unsupported types is still on the TODO... might have been done, but i don't remember 07:54:54 no worries attila_lendvai 07:57:59 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 07:59:14 fiveop [n=fiveop@92.229.240.51] has joined #lisp 08:00:14 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:00:33 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 08:00:41 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:02:16 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84.51.132.95] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 08:02:17 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:03:00 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 08:03:50 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 08:11:28 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@118.210.164.226] has joined #lisp 08:18:05 good morning. pkhuong anywhere? 08:19:02 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:19:07 *trebor_dki* still wonders why sbcl is so slow in printing/writing float/doubles (5% of C/C++) 08:20:24 htk__ [n=htk___@188.3.228.8] has joined #lisp 08:20:27 <_3b> have you compared to see if the c/c++ prints as accurately? 08:20:29 -!- lsk2 [n=lsk2_4@122.116.5.215] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:21:27 _3b: yes, i wrote to a file and checked it (so c/c++ is even faster in writing to string) 08:21:47 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:55 <_3b> i mean did you test every possible float to see if it could read an identical float back from what it wrote :) 08:22:02 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:22:07 trebor_dki: sbcl and the glibc (or whatever libc you use) probably have a totally different algorithm 08:22:21 <_3b> the paper from which sbcl implementation was taken mentioned comparisons to C code, where teh c code was faster but not always correct 08:22:27 good morning 08:22:35 if the algorithm used by the glibc is as precise that the SBCL one, but faster, it would be interesting to port it to SBCL 08:22:39 perhaps the pretty printer does something silly 08:23:14 <_3b> also, as mentioned yesterday, nobody has bothered to even implement the fully optimized version of the code from the paper in sbcl, so there is probably room for improvement 08:23:39 _3b: i see it from practical standpoint. i need to write a lot of data to csv after processing, i would be glad if i could force sbcl to be as less accurate as c ;) 08:23:49 <_3b> and from looking at profiler and skimming the profiler, some of those optimizations should matter 08:24:12 <_3b> trebor_dki: well, you could always just use C to write it 08:25:02 <_3b> or you could patch sbcl i guess 08:25:08 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 08:25:14 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@118.210.155.74] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:25:17 _3b: i did a work-around (only writing modified data & keeping string representations of non modified data) - but it really surprises me. 08:25:28 *_3b* assumes sbcl devs would be more interested in optimizing the correct path before adding a fast-but-wrong path :) 08:26:11 <_3b> no surprise, same issue as windows support... nobody who cares about teh problem is willing to either figure out how to fix it, or pay someone else to 08:27:51 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:28:29 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.50.31] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:29:32 not direct linked to the problem: i have no problem in donating (i donate to the linux distros i use to (non-profit association)) 08:29:37 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:30:10 i am surprised, because i did not expected a bottleneck at this point 08:31:12 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 08:31:15 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:31:39 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177121138.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 08:33:40 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:33:49 good morning 08:36:55 attila_lendvai: I pulled dwim head yesterday and saw that you follow a change in local-time (parse-http-... was renamed to parse-rfc...) 08:37:02 for some ungodly reason, bt:make-lock is returning (NIL) and not a #S(SB-THREAD:MUTEX ..) 08:37:39 attila_lendvai: does that mean that you have pulled all 3rd party packages? 08:39:16 kami-: no (if i understand your question correctly). but i doubt there are too many changes out there since my last pull... 08:39:45 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 08:41:43 attila_lendvai: thank you. I just wanted to make sure I don't have too old versions of the 3rd party libs. 08:47:38 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-77.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:47:45 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32D28D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:55 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-9-152.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 08:51:00 manardb looks good 08:51:20 i learn something new every day 08:54:45 HET4 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:55:14 -!- [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.86.100] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:55:27 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-192-63.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 08:55:30 redblue [i=star@ppp026.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 08:56:17 okay, so just to check I didn't miss something obvious: there's no way to rename a symbol when importing it, right? 08:56:33 that is, no equivalent of python's "from foo import bar as baz" 08:57:25 grrr, why so conservative? stock x86 sbcl binary doesn't have threads enabled 08:57:30 mathrick: that's correct 09:01:24 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:02:29 ok 09:02:50 -!- HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:03:21 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-122-238.netcologne.de] has quit [No route to host] 09:03:36 amaron [n=amaron@93.86.161.198] has joined #lisp 09:05:51 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:06:22 -!- ASau [n=user@host112-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:07:41 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88.149.211.151] has quit ["Valete!"] 09:11:02 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:11:28 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483FB3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:15 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 09:14:37 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:17:27 OT: what's the unix command for making an audible alert? tried but failed with ding/beep/alert/alarm 09:17:37 Is there a loop construct that iterates over a 2d array and allows me to just modify every element in place? 09:17:40 it's for doing stuff like `make && beep`, etc. 09:17:59 Or do I need nested loops? 09:18:54 nested loops or displaced arrays 09:19:22 or I'll just write a macro 09:19:58 fusss: you just print the \bel character :) 09:20:05 ASau [n=user@host112-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 09:20:49 7 09:20:59 (code-char 7) 09:21:30 <_3b> cat /dev/random > /dev/audio ? 09:21:43 <_3b> or /dev/urandom rather 09:21:50 _3b: and dd instead of cat 09:21:56 that won't be very pleasant 09:22:11 (let ((array (make-array '(4 4)))) (map-into (make-array (array-total-size array) :displaced-to array) (lambda () (random 10))) array) 09:22:19 like this 09:22:51 *fusss* doesn't remember sh run-tests.sh printing massive disassemblies; hoping sbcl isn't borked 09:23:03 fusss: you can write the bell character to the terminal 09:23:13 that's the 'standard' way to do it 09:23:17 do you read all run-tests.sh output? 09:23:30 generally a good choice, because emulators will do things like mark themselves as urgent to the WM 09:24:50 *stassats* hates programs which beep whenever they feel like it 09:26:35 *attila_lendvai* remembers how he ductape'd the beeper in his computers back then 09:26:55 stassats: you could disable that with a bios option 09:27:51 i always remove pcspeaker module 09:27:54 or a config option in your term emulator 09:30:27 alvinator [n=alvinato@121.1.55.58] has joined #lisp 09:30:39 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:30:47 *kami-* likes the term Speakerektomy: http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Visual-Bell-3.html 09:36:55 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:41 sepi: (loop for i below (array-total-size 2darray) do (setf (row-major-aref 2darray i) (f (row-major-aref 2darray i)))) 09:38:13 mnl_ [n=mnl@pD9E6B4E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:42 matimago: is that faster than an element-by element copying? 09:45:31 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 09:45:33 Is there a socket library which supports IPv6? 09:45:41 iolib? 09:45:52 -!- fgtech^ [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:48:33 stassats: It seems to support IPv6 yes. Thank you! 09:48:35 fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 09:50:43 whoppix [n=whoppix@p4FDF6A30.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:00 -!- mnl [n=mnl@pD9E6BEAC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:03:02 ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 10:04:08 benny` [n=benny@i577A0A04.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:04:17 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0A04.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:11:05 fusss_ [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:11:06 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:11:07 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 10:11:23 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Client Quit] 10:15:27 -!- blackwolf [n=blackwol@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:19:00 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:23:19 -!- araujo [n=moz@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:23:25 -!- alvinator [n=alvinato@121.1.55.58] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:25:47 -!- xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:29:53 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:30:54 crypto [n=z0d@artifact.hu] has joined #lisp 10:31:19 -!- crypto is now known as Guest69530 10:31:42 -!- htk__ [n=htk___@188.3.228.8] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:31:58 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 10:35:07 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:38:06 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 10:39:24 shyam_k [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has joined #lisp 10:39:37 how to measure time taken by a scheme procedure? 10:40:10 killerstorm2 [n=alex_miz@sputnik.donapex.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:30 shyam_k: i don't know, but maybe someone in #scheme can help 10:40:41 yeah just asked there.. 10:41:00 now all you need to do is just wait for an answer there. 10:41:14 also searching the web as usual. 10:41:24 shyam_k: in the future, no need to ask here if they don't answer there. 10:41:25 just asked the cousin brother too.. 10:41:38 okay;-) 10:43:44 shyam_k: if you are interested in the far superior common lisp, you may be interested to read/learn about it and ask here :) 10:44:12 *shyam_k* notes.. cousin brother is "superior.. 10:44:39 :P 10:45:11 *lichtblau* totally missed that 1. asdf has moved from cclan to cl.net and 2. all the stuff that has happened there 10:45:29 My windows shortcut patch has been committed! asdf-binary-locations has been integrated? 10:46:24 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 10:47:11 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:51:57 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:52:14 wow!, just read http://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/mit-scheme-ref/Machine-Time.html 10:52:58 shyam_k: in case it wasn't clear before: scheme is generally off topic in this channel 10:53:00 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:53:29 Xof: sure sure.. i just closed the case.. 10:55:24 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-84-210.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 10:57:23 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:57:37 attila_lendvai: how would you go about removing object from store in cl-serialize? 10:58:42 or how does one do that in cl-store for that matter 10:59:15 fusss: ? removing something from the binary representation? 10:59:27 yes 10:59:48 deserialize the whole stuff, change, serialize. this is a serializer... 10:59:54 say i am using the store to keep "metadata" about an object. when the object is removed, i want the metadata gone. 11:00:24 (serialize (setf (deserialize 'foo) nil))? 11:00:35 that sounds silly 11:02:04 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:02:17 -!- Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:02:18 fusss: i think you're a bit off. both cl-serializer and cl-store is a piece of code that turns any lisp object into a byte-vector; and its reverse operation. what you say doesn't make much sense to me 11:02:24 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:02:57 i should probably be using a database or object store, from what it seems 11:03:06 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:03:32 oh, i see what I am missing 11:03:42 what you do with those byte vectors is your problem... also note that from this you can conclude that object identity is not handled between two separate calls to serialize 11:04:04 does cl-serializer serialize *multiple* objects into the same file? if not, the i know where the problem likes (in my assumption) 11:04:34 fusss: if you package them in a (list obj1 obj2 ...), then yes 11:04:51 ok, got it; i need an object store, not a serializer :-P 11:05:18 delete-object only makes sense where there is a find-object or similar indexing method 11:05:19 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:05:51 attila_lendvai: do you have a hand in cl-prevalence as well? 11:06:02 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 11:06:34 i need something that keeps various lisp objects, which are not a collection/list/sequence, into some kind of a back .. a sack, a rucksack .. 11:06:46 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:01 fusss: our lib is cl-perec, which is a simple ORM to sql backends 11:07:18 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A0A04.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:07:30 we played with rucksack, even started fixing it, but gave up on it... 11:07:30 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:30 alright 11:07:40 what was the problem? 11:08:15 it's dead, and we need most of ACID, but especially durability... 11:08:46 also our patches are still not applied to this date, although most of them were clear fixes... 11:13:41 -!- Guest69530 is now known as z0d 11:14:55 attila_lendvai: how is cl-perec simple? :) 11:15:17 also, speaking of unapplied patches, any chance to see local-time patches applied upstread? 11:15:21 *upstream 11:15:56 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 11:16:31 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 11:17:10 mathrick: read mails... ;) 11:17:19 I thought I did 11:17:24 *mathrick* checks his inbox 11:17:33 mathrick: also, where did i say that cl-perec is simple? 11:17:42 oh, i see... 11:17:51 well, as simple as ORM's are... 11:17:52 ah, right 11:18:21 attila_lendvai: it's actually pretty sophisticated for an ORM, and that's not necessarily a bad thing 11:18:33 you need to be pretty smart to make your ORM worth anything 11:18:51 attila_lendvai: also, good to see it applied finally :) 11:19:28 11:19:28 ERC> if you had to use cl "web framework", which one would you go for? why? 11:19:38 *attila_lendvai* has been running through his 200+ starred mails for the last few hours, replying to 3+ years old mails, applying 3+ years old patches... 11:19:57 you're replying to 3 year old emails? 11:20:03 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:31 Guest53971: please rename your nick to something easier to type/complete 11:20:37 rsynnott: yes, mostly about still not applied pending patches lingering on various mailing lists. applying some of them, etc... 11:20:44 -!- Guest53971 is now known as esnk 11:20:50 esnk: re: web framework, it depends. I use weblocks myself 11:21:19 I'm vaguely reminded of this: http://groups.google.ie/group/alt.religion.kibology/msg/bcd57fb913d66eb2?hl=en&dmode=source 11:21:25 for various reasons, such as it shows promise, I know it better than anything else, maintainers are responsive and it's not hard to to contribute 11:21:32 esnk: we wrote wui, kinda available at http://dwim.hu (wui running there) 11:21:38 and I like the general model it operates under 11:22:06 there's also UCW, which is sort-of a meta-framework as I understand, though it's very vague really 11:22:31 and that has ucw-standard and LoL (lisp on lines) built on top 11:24:22 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-11-230.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:25:04 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 11:26:29 is a log/history avaliable for this channel somewhere? 11:26:45 <_3b> minion: tell esnk about logs 11:26:45 esnk: direct your attention towards logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 11:26:59 thank you 11:28:01 esnk: start with hunchentoot 11:28:22 it's a web server, not a framework, but a few are built ontop of it 11:28:56 scottmaccal [n=scott@169.244.94.54] has joined #lisp 11:28:58 <_3b> is there a more concise way in clbuild to see which projects i've modified than ./clbuild diff ? 11:30:49 there's also tpd2 as far as web servers go, though I haven't used it myself 11:31:01 but it's heavily optimised towards being blazingly fast 11:33:05 it also comes with some kinda ajax/comet/whatever hackery that makes it possible to distribute updates to everyone currently looking at a page in real time 11:34:38 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:35:08 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 11:37:53 sepi: depends on whether you consider "faster" to mean > or >=, because this is exactly an element-by-element processing. 11:38:00 anythink that can do stuff like gwt does for java? 11:38:29 sepi: (row-major-index a k) is probably faster than (aref a i j) since it does one less multiplication at least. 11:38:41 <_3b> minion: tell esnk about parenscript 11:38:42 esnk: please look at parenscript: Parenscript is a translator from a small Lispy language to JavaScript. http://www.cliki.net/parenscript 11:38:44 wui has component based server side gui (i'm don't know gwt too well) 11:38:50 <_3b> not sure how much of gwt that covers though 11:40:30 ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 11:42:05 esnk: GWT is a joke 11:42:10 it compiles java to javascript 11:42:33 yep, all the expressiveness of java with the raw performance and versatility of javascript 11:43:22 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:43:25 use dojo or qooxdoo, or build your own tower of babel with jquery plugins; for the client side 11:43:30 on server side, use a real language 11:43:54 matimago: well, if I for example copy an array elementwise vs row-by-row would the sbcl compiler generate the same code for both. 11:44:04 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:06 matimago: btw, are you the author of imago? 11:44:21 esnk: if you wanna look at something cool, look at GAE; the app engine rocks! 11:45:31 *_3b* notes that ./clbuild diff isn't very useful for git projects... oh, i changed 'encoding.lisp' i wonder which of the 100+ projects i have installed that came from 11:46:04 _3b: I don't think there is a better way. And "clbuild diff" definitely could use some work. 11:46:09 find /usr/local/lib/sbcl/site -name encoding.lisp -print ;-) 11:46:22 *esnk* is reading Parenscript introduction, does not want to use java&script 11:46:52 esnk: there is nothing wrong with javascript when done right. jquery is just perfect. 11:46:56 <_3b> lichtblau: it could at least list projects it checks to the same stream as the diff output, so there is some context 11:46:56 First step for the feature you were asking for is to find a way to implement it on each VCS. Both diff and "what projects did I change" can be implemented nicely (efficiently, without network) only with DVCSs anyway. 11:47:22 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:47:32 sure, I just had enough of it 11:47:39 mrdodge [n=user@cm110.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 11:48:07 Do you want a list of only uncommitted changes, or local unpushed commits too? 11:48:24 At least for darcs and git, there should be a nice way to implement it either way. 11:48:29 <_3b> unpushed commits would probably be good too 11:49:53 all the minions who were maintaining clbuild seem to be rather inactive lately. 11:50:10 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 11:50:29 mm minions. 11:50:50 And the few people who actually submit changes to clbuild don't stick to the "please send me something I can just apply using darcs" rule, making me rather unmotivated to work on them. 11:52:25 lpolzer: do you have a darcs repository I can just pull from? 11:52:36 <_3b> so should i send a patch to a list somewhere instead of complaining that a repo moved here? :) 11:52:43 Pull requests are way easier on the poor maintainer than raw diffs. 11:52:48 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:53:11 Besides, I want the actual author of the change listed in the logfile so that people know who to blame. 11:55:46 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:55:51 Maddas [n=mz@74.125.121.33] has joined #lisp 11:56:36 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76.10.149.209] has quit [Client Quit] 11:58:04 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:57 <_3b> any cl-cont devs around? 12:01:01 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 12:01:14 _3b: I *think* lpolzer maintains that too nowadays, but not sure 12:02:28 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 12:05:52 sepi: row-major-aref doesn't access a whole row at a time, but a single cell. It's with displayed arrays that you could use REPLACE to copy row by row, but internally it would still copy cell by cell. However, in both case, a good compiler could further optimize the copying loop, and for example implement it using vertorial instructions or DMA. 12:05:57 *_3b* remembers too late not to run 'darcs help' 12:06:12 sepi: the point is that which way is fastest depends on the compiler and target. 12:06:50 sepi: On clisp, it might be worthwhile to use REPLACE on displaced vectors. With sbcl, your own loop using row-major-aref might be fastest. 12:07:39 <_3b> what is the darcs command to get a diff of local commits suitable for emailing? 12:07:40 sepi: I'm not author of imago. matimago is a shortcut for informatimago (informatic mago). 12:08:22 matimago: hehe, ok. Thanks for your help 12:08:31 <_3b> ah, looks like darcs send can write to file in addition to emailing 12:08:45 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:00 <_3b> or at least the docs say it can, if not how 12:10:18 -!- mnl_ [n=mnl@pD9E6B4E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:10:30 _3b: try: darcs send --help 12:10:37 _3b: -o FILE might do it. 12:10:50 <_3b> then i'll have to kill it by hand again though :p 12:10:53 it seems that there is still an issue with hunchentoot:stop 12:11:05 _3b: what's wrong --help? 12:11:07 it doesn't return 12:11:29 <_3b> buggy darcs or implementation of whatever language it uses in current ubuntu 12:11:39 ghc 12:11:40 <_3b> whenever it uses the pager, it gets stuck in a loop 12:11:46 <_3b> (or something like that) 12:12:04 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:12:19 or pager is buggy 12:12:21 *_3b* doesn't use darcs enough to compile a newer version by hand 12:12:37 known bug in the Haskell compiler, I believe 12:12:42 <_3b> no, it was listed in a darcs changelog that it was fixed, so presumably not pager 12:13:02 it has been fixed, but you may not have the fixed version of darcs 12:13:13 <_3b> right 12:13:40 <_3b> -o worked though, thanks :) 12:13:49 that bug made me switch to git :) 12:13:59 _3b: if you want to install GHC, that's an 80MiB download with 564MiB installed size (on Arch) ;D 12:14:18 <_3b> darcs made me switch without the bug :) 12:14:35 *_3b* found their patch theory annoyingly incomplete 12:14:46 <_3b> sykopomp: i don't :p 12:15:32 _3b: it's a funny point that potential xmonad-using archers always complain about "I want to install a minimalist window manager and it depends on *WHAT?!*" 12:15:40 <_3b> heh 12:15:50 <_3b> twm ftw 12:16:04 non-buggy clx ftw 12:16:05 :\ 12:16:15 I tried running stumpwm on clisp's new clx 12:16:25 <_3b> (except for the bit about it having really confusing titlebar sizing algos that i couldn't get to do what i wanted) 12:16:32 except their new clx is buggy, so I'm back to SBCL :| 12:16:50 <_3b> so i ended up back in sawfish 12:17:04 <_3b> yeah, i should try a cl based wm at some point 12:17:15 ...isn't sawfish cl? 12:17:30 helgim_ [n=helgi@moller.root.is] has joined #lisp 12:17:30 <_3b> nope, some odd not-quite sceme or something as an extension languae 12:17:39 rep 12:18:17 <_3b> i'll probably try eclipse next time i feel like wasting time on configuring stuff :) 12:18:49 _icecube_ [n=icecube@p549C706F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:49 I like the lisp part of stumpwm, and I like the tiling style 12:18:53 I hate everything else >:| 12:19:08 sykopomp: 564MiB on arch ? how did you get that number ? 12:19:08 like? 12:19:20 galdor: pacman -S ghc 12:19:57 sykopomp: arghhh indeed, that is a bit annoying 12:20:00 -!- helgim_ [n=helgi@moller.root.is] has left #lisp 12:20:22 tic: I hate the way it handles groups on multihead setups, I hate how useless its mode-line is, and how crashy the contribs are. I hate how it can't just have a floating layer in a regular group. 12:20:26 I was asking myself why my asus eee as only 1 GB free 12:20:29 it's 21st century, who cares about 564MiB? 12:20:30 now I know 12:20:46 stassats: netbook with 4GB ssd disks 12:20:51 sykopomp, floating layer in a regular group would be nice, yeah. how it handles groups on multihead setups, well... run a separate X server 12:20:58 Behaviour As Intended(tm) 12:21:04 tic: that sucks *balls* 12:21:45 <_3b> 500mb would be annoying if i was trying to keep VM image size down too :p 12:21:46 there's also the issue that I think each frame should actually have its own little tab listing window names belonging to that frame 12:21:51 galdor: _net_book? so, run xmonad on a different machine over network 12:22:10 galdor: or use stumpwm. I still like it better than xmonad :P 12:22:24 sykopomp, that'd be nice! 12:22:25 but regardless, joke's on you for wasting your money on overhyped SSD tech. 12:22:26 stassats: I program in haskell too, so I need ghc anyway 12:22:35 galdor: my condolences. 12:22:37 program over ssh! 12:22:46 (incf stassats) 12:22:53 sykopomp, time to do some stumpwm hacking, then. listing the windows in a frame is dead-easy 12:22:58 i can't imagine using only 4gb 12:22:58 for the sake of the story, I bought the EEE when I was a moneyless student 12:22:59 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-105-216.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 12:23:10 so hacking during the boring XML courses was kinda nice 12:23:11 Geralt [n=Geralt@91.50.210.141] has joined #lisp 12:23:23 sykopomp: I'm playing around with chanl, any FIFO example? 12:23:33 now that I'm working, I'm gonna be able to buy a real laptop 12:23:44 tic: hacking on stumpwm has been on my todo list since I started using it, but the groups bullshit was discouraging enough (and hard enough to implement) that it dropped pretty quickly in my priority list. 12:23:58 and for stumwp, I have to try it 12:24:01 lharc: what do you mean FIFO? channels are FIFO. 12:24:21 sykopomp: :) .. ok, entry level example 12:24:30 I just have troubles adjusting my mind to the lisp way (aka, no native binary, run it from the repl) 12:24:32 sykopomp: very bounded FIFOs. What if one wanted to build asynchronous FIFOs on top of them? 12:24:41 lharc: ls chanl/examples 12:24:42 go nuts 12:24:52 pkhuong: then buffer them. 12:24:57 galdor: well, make a binary, no problem 12:25:11 pkhuong: (make-channel 100), (send * 'foo), (send * 'bar), etc. 12:25:30 still bounded. 12:25:49 hmm 12:25:59 stassats: save-lisp-and-die ? 12:26:09 right 12:26:30 sykopomp: thanks, I'll pick sieve.lisp 12:26:30 I have mixed feelings about it 12:26:51 I'd like to have one central lisp system, not one system for each program 12:26:52 pkhuong: I wonder if it's really that hard to just set up an unbounded queue on top of it. I sort of feel like that smells. 12:27:04 a lisp os is what's missing 12:27:18 so, run from the repl then 12:27:40 sykopomp: CSP channels are parameterised on the queue; you could provide an unbounded queue, a pqueue, ... 12:28:04 is there a construct in cl that enables you to check if a number is in a range? 12:28:17 pkhuong: do you think that would be a worthwhile feature to provide? 12:28:20 (< 20 x 30) 12:28:35 sepi: (<= 0 x 1023), (typep x '(integer 0 1023)), (typep x '(mod 1024)) 12:28:49 sykopomp: unbounded queues, definitely. 12:28:59 we have a GC, might as well exploit it. 12:29:12 phadthai: ahh, excellent 12:29:36 pkhuong: I meant you 12:30:02 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:31:04 pkhuong: What's an actual use case for them? 12:31:18 Where it's not acceptable to block a running process until someone else wants to grab some input? 12:31:29 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:31:55 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 12:32:02 weblocks looks interesting, can you use/create jquery-like widgets there? (maybe use jquery) 12:32:06 sykopomp: same reason you'd use bounded queues, except that there's no reason for any bound in particular 12:32:08 so you'd just leave it unbounded instead of guessing an arbitrary value. 12:32:13 galdor: a centralised system for development, save-lisp-and-die for delivery and no problem :-) 12:33:16 pkhuong: But the general use-case for bounded buffered queues is that you can put in a little bit of extra work before blocking. The use-cases I've found are generally generator-style code, where you -really- don't want to let 'er rip and grow without bounds. 12:34:04 Take work unit queues... There's no reason to block until you want a value. 12:34:19 p_l: this concept is fine, but fails in some cases 12:34:53 hm 12:34:53 with a ~50Mb, there's no way I'm gonna write a small program with it 12:35:22 it's typically a problem if you want to put it in package managers 12:35:51 haskell has cabal, I'd love having the same tool for lisp 12:36:01 I guess I'll add it. I've been working on an actor model example, and unbounded queues certainly make sense in that case. 12:36:06 minion: asdf-install? 12:36:07 asdf-install: asdf-install is a development application for downloading and installing lisp packages. http://www.cliki.net/asdf-install 12:36:17 matimago: sucks 12:36:26 pacman -S ghc cabal-install && cabal install xmonad 12:36:32 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 12:36:40 sykopomp: sure, the name. Kamasutra would have been a better one. 12:36:41 you can't do as simple with asdf-install or cl-build 12:37:18 (asdf-install:install :split-sequence) ; simplier! 12:37:24 no 12:37:35 pacman -S sbcl && sbcl 12:37:39 (require :asdf) 12:37:44 (require :asdf-install) 12:37:51 (asdf-install:install :split-sequence) 12:37:59 galdor: ....so your complaint is that it's not a command-line tool? 12:38:00 oh, and don't forget to get the GPG keys 12:38:15 the GPG key issue seems like a more sensible complaint, tbh. 12:38:15 That's ridiculus! sbcl is already installed and booted, including asdf and asdf-install. 12:38:40 Well, I prefer to have a message telling me that it's not signed than a cabal installing rogue software. 12:38:41 no, I understand that the UNIX way isn't the lisp way 12:39:35 but since I'm on a UNIX operated system, it's really useful to be able to handle lisp from unix 12:39:57 haskell has ghci to operate in the haskell world, but it still has an external unix interface 12:40:14 galdor: then use your unix package manager! on gentoo, I just type: emerge cl-split-sequence 12:40:15 matimago: I'd rather have something more like CPAN, where security is mostly a developer hassle during upload 12:40:41 sykopomp: sure, better to reject unsigned package on upload. 12:40:42 as opposed to forcing GPG down every single user's throat because of the threat of any random jerk showing up in a wiki. 12:40:46 well, you could give cl-build a command line interface if you wanted to :) 12:40:47 and asdf-install is more a download script than a package manager 12:41:07 galdor: emerge 12:41:07 using the package manager is being totally dependant for your distribution's mainteners 12:41:21 galdor: tell that to linux distributors. 12:41:38 packages aren't updated when you want it, sucky patch are applied, it changes from distrib to distrib 12:41:47 galdor: tell that to linux distributors. 12:41:54 cabal is a totally independant solution, same thing for CPAN or gem 12:42:01 matimago: it's doesn't work that way 12:42:02 matimago: it's definitely an issue. 12:42:21 Ok, so who wants to work on it? galdor? sykopomp? 12:42:28 now, I'm not spitting on lisp, I use and like it, but it's a problem 12:42:37 matimago: I'm working on a lot of things :) 12:42:39 matimago: I've got notes, but a "proper" distribution thing is a gigantic project. 12:42:41 Good, you've voluntered! ;-) 12:43:00 matimago: I can paste my scribbles about the matter again. It's just such a pita to design a proper one. 12:43:08 the real problem isn't the arch 12:43:12 For which you'll probably get gigantic thanks. 12:43:24 this is assuming I'm actually able to build it :) 12:43:40 it's the fact that no package manager for a long time means the lisp world is sparse 12:43:57 *sykopomp* goes to sleep 12:44:05 no package manager? 12:44:19 what about clbuild? libcl? asdf-install? 12:44:30 asdf-install is a download script, nothing more 12:44:44 clbuild is already better, but with all due respect, it's a hack 12:44:52 danlei [n=user@pD9E2D2F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:57 ok - you do better 12:45:05 see dherring's libcl 12:45:08 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:22 cabal an cpan are wins because they centralize all efforts 12:45:42 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:45:43 libcl is a package collection 12:45:45 what about you 1- extend XCVB to include a packaging system just like CCLANv1 ? 12:45:55 Yes. libcl is a packaged distribution. 12:46:04 from which one can automatically extract debian packages, rpms, etc. 12:46:10 (I was confusing it with cllib). 12:46:13 I know the whole "do it yourself" chitchat, but it's not going anywhere 12:46:30 libcl is batteries included. Don't do anything yourself. 12:46:31 what's going where? 12:46:41 you do the thing, people follow you -- there's the community 12:46:52 whining on irc is going anywhere? 12:47:13 I agree, but not having thetime to do it doesn't mean you can't point out the problem :) 12:47:17 *Fare* wants a pony! http://fare.livejournal.com/tag/pony 12:47:54 i'm not whining, just expressing a regret 12:48:01 same difference 12:48:51 question: why does that happen with CL but not with Python or Ruby? 12:49:07 because ruby has gem, and python easy_install ? 12:49:14 and how did they come to be? 12:49:15 Fare: heh, i like that pony meme... :) 12:49:31 galdor: ruby didn't have it a few years ago. Why did it grow it, but CL didn't? 12:49:43 rock star groupies doing the work? 12:49:51 ruby grew with rail 12:49:54 Ada73 [n=ss@p54A8BC46.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:56 so got more an more hackers 12:49:58 yion 12:50:02 why didn't CL grow with UCW? 12:50:16 CL is really exotic 12:50:20 race condition in the loop 12:50:25 Doesn't it grow with hunchentoot? 12:50:35 now 12:50:37 doesn't it grow with dwim? 12:50:40 etc etc etc 12:50:41 at work, people call me autistic 'cause I program in lisp and haskell 12:50:45 band bond 12:50:49 wrong. most lispers have NIH and code reuse is something that still surprises them and sends them to google... 12:50:58 cold !? 12:51:07 sounds abstract 12:51:30 attila_lendvai: that's because it's too easy to program in lisp. 12:51:35 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:51:36 Ada73: are you a bot? 12:51:36 i would rewind my atomized stuff 12:51:39 galdor: does Lisp attract autistic people? cf Mark Tarver about the bipolar lisp programmer 12:51:43 no i am reframing 12:51:46 stassats`: sounds like younder 12:51:48 In other program it's so painful, you prefer to use pre-coded libraries. 12:51:58 In lisp it's so pleasant, you prefer to write it yourself. 12:52:12 I agree 12:52:19 encountre~~~ 12:52:30 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xof 12:52:33 -!- Xof has set mode +b *!*n=ss@*.dip.t-dialin.net 12:52:46 Lisp has this mythology of the system that does everything right, and excludes all the bad stuff 12:52:55 matimago: oh, right. i forgot to add that when they are back from google reading the definition of code reuse, they murmur something about how easy it is to reinvent the wheel in lisp and keep on reinventing... :) 12:52:58 I had a discussion on clc++ about iterators. In lisp, there's no iterator library, since writing an iterator is a oneline closure. 12:53:00 instead of doing everything right AND including the bad stuff (though isolating it) 12:53:20 so lispers reinvent stuff rather than use libraries 12:53:30 (also, pre-CFFI, using libraries was hard) 12:53:42 *_3b* reuses code, seems to end up regretting it frequently though :( 12:53:48 You cannot name every instances. Naming classes is good, but not each instances. 12:53:53 (and even w/ CFFI we have bad surprises, like here at ITA with Oracle libraries doing the wrong thing with SIGPIPE) 12:53:56 I actually like Donald Knuth's idea of editable code 12:54:03 ie, I like reusing code by editing it to fit the new purpose 12:54:12 this instance is called Joe 12:54:18 and that instance, Zoe 12:54:32 you little instance will be Joe Jr. 12:54:47 Occidental human are special, each a class in himself. 12:54:51 Adlai, not very maintainable 12:55:05 gives class struggle a new dimension 12:55:09 :-) 12:55:19 *drumroll 12:55:29 Fare: I also like having code which has been edited enough that it becomes a library and can just be reused. 12:55:58 the lisp way in this case works perfectly when your building whole environment 12:56:16 Yes really, using libraries poses the problem of dependencies. 12:56:18 but when you want to write small programs, closer to the UNIX way, lisp isn't so nice 12:56:33 That's why libcl, lisp-in-a-box, etc is the right way to do it. 12:56:34 sunwukong [n=vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:57:01 galdor: yes, it is, but they you should restrict yourself to the lisp package packaged by the distibution. 12:57:06 s/they/then/ 12:57:13 the right way, if it scales 12:57:32 problem is, the mudballs way didn't scale, for instance 12:57:35 HD and RAM are big. 12:57:40 galdor: I write small programs pretty often, but mostly because I live partly in emacs and it's about as easy to whip up a package and put together functions and call them from the lisp repl as put them in a script file and call them from the shell prompt. 12:57:41 one man had to do all the work... until he burnt out 12:57:45 small lisp programs, that is. 12:58:10 Xach: with cl-launch you can transform on into the other 12:58:13 matimago: what distribution ? there're dozen of them, each one with its policies, its package versions, etc. 12:58:21 it's a problem in all languages, even C 12:58:22 I use gentoo. 12:58:31 It's lisp packaging is nice enough. 12:58:33 that's why there exists cabal, gem, cpan... 12:58:58 galdor: you could take gem and port it to CL. 12:59:07 Fare: It's not quite the same. I like the interactive environment at runtime, too. 12:59:31 minion: cl-launch? 12:59:39 cl-launch: cl-launch is a unix utility to make your Lisp software easily invokable from the shell command-line. http://www.cliki.net/cl-launch 12:59:44 matimago: archlinux's haskell packaging is excellent, but I don't use it anymore, tired of waiting for the maintainers to update or just annoyed when they don't use the good flags 12:59:45 ah 13:00:11 galdor: see. Do it yourself. 13:01:29 some day perhaps 13:01:56 at work I had to build a small network simulator 13:02:05 I hesitated between lisp and haskell 13:02:11 Xach: so you start a screen, inside an emacs, and inside your lisp app? 13:02:25 works, too 13:02:28 at the end I took haskell, because there was no really easy way for my coworkers to run a lisp program 13:02:41 works if you don't need to scale to plenty of workers 13:02:49 -!- Lispster [n=jared@99-23-192-153.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:02:53 -!- rudi [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has quit ["Client exciting"] 13:02:55 Fare: most of my small programs are for analyzing data files or simple database fiddling 13:02:56 and don't produce so much output as to confuse emacs 13:03:10 I remember I uesd to run cliki this way 13:03:42 ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:53 Fare: things that go slightly beyond awk one-liners, or perl/sed transformations. where i want real, easy objects. 13:05:48 intermediate results as real collections of objects instead of text soup in a file... 13:06:19 yay 13:06:23 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 13:06:35 I miss that, at ITA :( 13:06:37 well, all those nice lispy things. the main difference is that they're not, say, jobs to run from cron 13:06:55 except when I debug XCVB, and even then, I try to minimize XCVB bugs :) 13:06:56 they are analysis tools for an immediate problem with a one-time solution 13:07:09 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:07:11 but they are also small 13:07:12 maybe you should go the APL way :) 13:07:30 maybe! i enjoyed the APL demo at OOPSLA DLS 13:09:12 cool, Lisp on Lego Mindstorm. 13:09:13 way to go if your data is plenty of numeric matrices 13:09:24 Just go to your local SIGAPL meeting 13:09:49 (some scheme-ish sensation) 13:10:02 oh, not APL! 13:10:07 why not? 13:10:16 WEIRD SYMBOLS :) 13:10:20 Deep Space Lego Mindstorm! :-) 13:10:21 nvoorhies, ... you'le find it just to the left of SIGCOBOL? ;) 13:10:29 you'll. 13:10:38 J? 13:10:47 ACM actually has a SIGAPL, weirdly enough 13:11:17 Last I checked my local branch seemed to be one lonely guy, and the mailing address seemed to be his apartment 13:11:17 tic: you'le is ok, like goule ;-) 13:11:24 how's XCVB going? 13:11:39 it's working fine 13:12:00 matimago, it must be all the cheese I'm eating, making me French. 13:12:00 mainly missing, I suppose, is the in-image compilation 13:12:09 *splittist* is waiting for XCVB Personal Edition 13:12:12 I hope to add that by the end of next week 13:12:21 to do it right, I need crypto checksum of files 13:13:00 I hope froydnj will add tth to ironclad 13:13:10 otherwise, I will run-program tthsum 13:13:32 splittist, what's wrong with the current XCVB, for you? 13:13:58 Fare: why tth? 13:14:09 XCVB now has two compiling backends - enforcing dependencies or not (faster, less safe/debuggable) 13:14:18 tiger tree hash 13:14:37 the correct way to hash potentially large files 13:15:17 -!- sunwukong [n=vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:16:00 will someone write a portable run-program for iolib? 13:17:45 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:18:36 emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-11-230.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:19:27 Fare: do you care about the hashes of the internal nodes for tth, or just the final result? 13:21:27 -!- shyam_k [n=user@unaffiliated/shyam-k/x-8459115] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:21:27 -!- HET4 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Operation timed out] 13:22:00 depends on the application 13:22:13 for xcvb, only the final result 13:22:31 for some archival program (like Ugarit), the internal nodes, too 13:22:35 Fare: it's just that I'm on a funky setup on Windows, and haven't plucked up the courage/set aside the time to try it out properly yet. No criticism of XCVB intended. 13:22:51 xcvb should work on windows 13:23:03 at least, on cygwin 13:23:20 at least with clisp 13:23:31 I haven't seriously tried an ecl backend 13:23:50 but I laid the groundwork so it's quite possible to make 13:24:28 Fare, well, I'm clisping with msys on a USB key. I will try soon. But probably not this evening. 13:24:29 HET4 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:24:59 Fare: what about XCVB with CCL on Windows? 13:25:47 splittist, I'm eager to hear about it 13:25:59 I admit I haven't tried with clisp much for a month 13:26:12 Adlai, should work, in theory 13:26:16 Adlai, I haven't tried. 13:26:31 you may have to adapt a few things on windows. 13:26:41 that I don't know about. I welcome patches. 13:26:55 only sbcl, ccl and clisp have been tested 13:26:56 Fare: That's good to know, if I ever have to work on Windows. 13:26:59 (on linux) 13:27:48 on windows, you'll need some variant of make -- if it's not cygwin I have no clue 13:30:23 -!- a-s` [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:31:16 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.90.231] has joined #lisp 13:33:10 does any implementation get pretty-printing nested backquotes right!? 13:33:25 (and if so -- is it open source and why don't all the other ones copy that?) 13:33:38 13:37:20 what exact problem do you have with printing nested backqs? 13:38:07 <_3b> they'd probably have to copy the entire backquote implementation to copy the pretty printing 13:38:57 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-207.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:40:27 _3b: true 13:41:21 jsnell: I'd rather see nested backquotes in the printout than (LIST* (CONS ...) ..) etc. I think that SBCL and clisp get this mostly right, and CCL doesn't. 13:41:47 iirc, the ACL personal edition that I used a while back didn't get it right either 13:41:50 <_3b> would you want it to translate LIST* forms to backquotes? 13:42:06 _3b: only when it prints it. 13:42:15 <_3b> even if you wrote it as list*? 13:42:31 that's why sbcl use sb-impl::backq-list* and such 13:42:42 _3b: I understand that it's a tricky problem 13:43:10 so it can distinguish the two list* 13:43:18 Fare: that looks like a good solution. 13:43:27 I haven't thought about this much, though. 13:43:35 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 13:43:36 Whenever it comes up, I'm too busy debugging a macro :) 13:43:37 ok, so your definition of "right" is ignoring the specific freedoms that implementations have 13:44:30 <_3b> seems reasonable for a user to allow fewer freedoms than a specifier :) 13:44:33 I'd be fine with IMPL:*readable-bq* 13:44:54 <_3b> you could always define your own ` reader :) 13:45:24 If I (setf impl:*readable-bq* nil), they can translate backquotes to forms using list*, list, cons, etc. And if I setf it to T, then I want it to be printed out correctly. 13:45:39 "correctly" 13:45:52 "As I want it to be printed" 13:46:06 <_3b> that seems even worse than defaulting to doing it the way you want... 2 implementations, 1 of which hardly ever gets used? 13:46:36 I'd be using it every time a complex macro was misbehaving 13:47:01 it's probably simpler though to have it always be readable 13:47:04 <_3b> right, but would you for example ever test ,. in it? 13:48:10 clisp punts by saving the original expression together with the expander 13:48:56 _3b: hmmm. As you can probably tell, I haven't thought about this too much... However, there do seem to be implementations that print nested backquotes "correctly" 13:49:05 Fare: that is a punt. heh. 13:50:17 <_3b> Adlai: that was just about 'using it whenever you had to debug a complex macro' counting as being used enough for the 2nd implementation to be adequately tested :) 13:52:06 <_3b> oh yeah, while i'm sending out bug reports, does anyone thing sbcl not interning unused symbols in compiled code is enough of a bug to actually report? 13:52:13 <_3b> *think 13:52:54 Adlai, but it's simple and guaranteed to work without headache 13:53:23 _3b: every bug is enough of a bug to report. The question is whether anybody would care enough to fix that bug. 13:53:40 <_3b> Adlai: ok, is it actually a bug even? :) 13:53:51 I think so... they should get interned, even if they're not used. 13:54:10 ie, even if the compiler can prove that the code can be deleted 13:55:39 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:58 <_3b> yeah, i think that was my interpretation too 13:56:29 <_3b> tohugh i think i decided to go ahead and implement that bug in my compiler and then ignore it if i ever got to that point :) 13:59:23 *_3b* adds that to the end of the list of things to report, dunno if i will actually get to it though 14:00:47 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 14:01:33 <_3b> ugh, synergy is breaking more than usual today :/ 14:03:14 _3b: taken without context, that's a hilarious sentence. 14:03:28 <_3b> heh 14:04:06 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:06:01 _3b: maybe they should be interned, but only via cfasls. 14:06:32 <_3b> pkhuong: you mean a normal .fasl shouldn't intern the symbol? 14:07:55 _3b: cfasls are meant to capture compile-time side effects. 14:08:09 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:10 _3b: I have automatic restart of synergy in a loop 14:08:29 <_3b> Fare: that sounds like a good idea 14:08:55 I seem to recall coming across a library at some point that had functions for parsing/interacting with lambda lists, does anyone remember the name? (my google foo is failing) 14:09:27 bobbysmith007: I believe alexandria has some utility functions for lambda lists. 14:09:30 bobbysmith007, arnesi probably has that as part of its code walker 14:09:40 <_3b> bobbysmith007: alexandria has some i think, or cl-walker for more complete parsing 14:09:43 I implemented it in XCVB, then shelved it 14:09:50 cool, thanks everyone 14:10:29 *attila_lendvai* recommends alexandria 14:11:07 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:11:47 lukego [n=lukegorr@84-72-45-92.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:12:45 so I really must broadcast this information in every medium available to me: my macbook air feels totally amazing, like a new computer, after (a) fixing thermal paste on the cpu and (b) undervolting the CPU and (c) clamping the fan speed down (way too aggressive by default) 14:13:07 *Jafet* gives lukego a DVD 14:13:10 bloat 14:13:46 would that I discovered this trick 18 months ago. :) 14:13:51 lukego: hooray! 14:14:12 lukego: pierre mai always raved about his. glad you worked yours out too! 14:14:12 thankyou froydnj :) 14:14:22 Hrm, I should vacuum my laptop 14:14:26 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 14:14:34 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 14:14:35 I have to do it live, because this vacuum cleaner runs off USB 14:19:01 dammit sbcl-developers; build in Series already :-) 14:19:16 it's purty code, no reason why we can't have it buitlin 14:19:22 brapse [n=brapse@modemcable180.220-21-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:19:29 good stuff like that should be blessed 14:20:38 Jafet: check your BIOS, you might not have to. 14:20:55 I have a setting in BIOS for sending power to the USB ports even when th elaptop is off. 14:21:14 (unless by "live" you just mean having electricity in the system at all) 14:21:20 -!- esnk [n=user@195.212.29.179] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:21:22 fusss: it's code and it's not ours, no reason to bring it in. It's not like sbcl-devel is the right place to look for support either. 14:21:31 lukego, I removed some plastic fins that blocked the fan output in my hp2133. also did a /lot/ for the heat, alas the noise level is costant. 14:21:41 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:43 Well, I'd rather not have to take the system down, anyway 14:22:05 poiu looks like it's working with my single-threaded-ccl. However, exscribe still borks with CCL... 14:22:27 pkhuong: MIT licensed; if enough vendors support it it might actually push for the CLtL3 effort :-) 14:23:03 esnk [n=user@195.212.29.171] has joined #lisp 14:23:05 fusss: ownership in the development sense. 14:23:12 oh 14:23:15 tic: for noise I found a command-line to manually slow down the fan. killed the noise, and the CPU temperature is still fine 14:24:18 lukego, lucky you. there's no control attached to the fan on my puter. :-( 14:26:41 lukego: now you can keep compiling cmucl in the background continuously! 14:26:49 -!- j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has quit ["Changing server"] 14:27:34 works fine after I fix a bug in my style file that SBCL didn't complain about 14:27:40 yay for single-threaded-ccl ! 14:30:27 so POIU is confirmed to work with both SBCL and CCL. 14:30:43 I'm welcoming patches to make it work with other lisp implementations 14:30:56 fear the power of the fork! 14:32:23 POIU? 14:32:41 -!- mrdodge [n=user@cm110.sigma74.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:33:17 oh, cliki informs 14:35:33 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:36:21 nearly a poilu 14:38:17 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.218.108] has joined #lisp 14:39:22 a poilu would be over a hundred years old, these days 14:39:36 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:39:49 if he survived the war at all, that is 14:40:33 ejs [n=eugen@91.124.240.52] has joined #lisp 14:42:25 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 14:42:43 <_3b> hmm, darcs send for a 1 line patch makes a file 4x the size of the file i modified 14:43:43 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:43:59 *_3b* finds another reason to dislike darcs 14:44:31 [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.83.64] has joined #lisp 14:44:40 _3b: why should you care about the size? Don't you have 100Mb/s bandwidth? 14:45:07 antgreen [n=user@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM0018c0b3c272.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:45:25 <_3b> only 1.5 upstream, but it is more of a moral objection than practical 14:45:51 It probably includes some more smarts than a simple patch file. 14:46:16 <_3b> right, every single commit message in the project, ever, apparently 14:46:29 Not in "the" project. 14:46:35 In darcs, there's no "the" project. 14:46:46 <_3b> yeah, i more or less understand why it does what it does 14:46:47 There are as many threads of patches as there are users. 14:47:09 To apply it, it will have to possibly do several merges. 14:47:30 <_3b> but there is only 1 thread in the tree i cloned from, which presumably will be identical up to the point of my patch when it is received 14:47:56 How should it know that, if it doesn't send the list of patches to be compared with the repository? 14:48:41 The benefit for you is that you can work entirely offline, even with a group. 14:48:59 <_3b> liek i said, i understand why it does what it does, i just disagree with the value of it 14:49:09 AFAIK, git does the same. Have you tried it? 14:49:14 xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 14:49:16 j #emacs 14:49:18 <_3b> i'd rather just have a git style hash identifying the entire tree i pulled from 14:49:33 Yes, but if you try to merge to a different tree? 14:49:50 *_3b* doesn't care about merging to another tree 14:49:59 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [] 14:50:07 _3b: good. In this case, indeed, darcs may not be the best rcs for you. 14:50:39 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 14:50:42 <_3b> right, i've known that since i tried to split up files than apply patches based on the original files :p 14:51:05 Outch! 14:51:16 <_3b> (not that git would have likely handled that much better, just gave me a reason to disagree with the philosphy of darcs) 14:51:53 *_3b* should try that at some point, it at least detects that sort of thing during diffs, so might handle merges a bit better 14:52:05 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:52:07 <_3b> also doesn't really help when it isn't my project :) 14:52:44 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 14:53:31 <_3b> oh well, /me will just send a 1k line patch for 1 line change anyway :p 14:58:10 *Fare* compiles XCVB with POIU => 15s ; with ASDF => 11s. WTF? 14:58:12 Apparently, on this 2-core, the overhead of forking is a lot bigger than the benefits of compiling in parallel (!) 14:58:15 -!- brapse [n=brapse@modemcable180.220-21-96.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 14:58:31 -!- ASau [n=user@host112-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 14:58:33 or I may be doing something wrong somewhere 14:59:01 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:59:04 forking sbcl is probably reasonably expensive 14:59:07 Fare: CCL or SBCL? 14:59:21 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:01 SBCL 15:00:11 why would forking SBCL be expensive? 15:00:16 lemme retry with CCL indeed 15:00:24 page tables aren't COW on linux. 15:00:41 Fare: disk caches? 15:01:37 *froydnj* sees another argument for integrating lichtblau's heap patches 15:03:14 gencgc likes to mmap/mprotect tiny chunks (couple KB) of heap at a time. 15:04:04 Fare: on the plus side, if you were compiling something really big you'd probably see a gain 15:04:34 or you could batch multiple compiles/fork. 15:04:34 pkhuong, they aren't? 15:05:08 pkhuong, could we fix gencgc to not do that? 15:05:20 Fare: someone posted a patch a couple years ago, and lichtblau (iirc) showed interesting gains on sbcl/fork, but the patch never made it to the mainline. 15:05:54 *Fare* tries the xcvb poiu backend with ccl and finds that he isn't loading ASDF. Oops. 15:07:13 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 15:07:19 -!- _icecube_ is now known as icecube^away 15:07:37 Fare: write barriers are good in a generational gc ;) 15:08:48 Btw, did anyone see CCL have problems with defmethod on validate-superclass not working? 15:09:45 As in, still having the incompatibility error on cross-metaclass inheritance, despite the said method being defined. 15:10:38 maybe larger mprotect chunks and a fast hash for more precision. 15:10:40 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 15:10:56 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp026.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:11:24 -!- Ada73 [n=ss@p54A8BC46.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Killed by stew ()] 15:13:11 with CCL, I compile XCVB in 3.4 seconds w/ POIU, 3.3 seconds w/ ASDF 15:13:56 Yay for parallelism? 15:14:22 maybe I'd fare better on a quad-core 15:14:23 Multicore is just a fad, etc. etc. 15:14:36 Fare: clearly, what you need is more chanl 15:14:37 :P 15:14:43 more chanl? 15:14:45 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-0-199.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:15:06 minion: Chant 15:15:06 MORE CHANL 15:15:38 *Adlai* facepalms sykopomp 15:15:42 Adlai: ;D 15:15:48 heh 15:17:10 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:24 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:17:42 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:18:17 *deepfire* wonders whether facepalm' is a mem crafted by joint effort of marketing departments of facebook and palm. 15:18:38 deepfire: what about headdesk? 15:18:53 what's chanl? 15:19:07 Fare: that concurrency lib I told you about. 15:19:45 facepalm isn't a transitive verb :p 15:20:06 *Adlai* facepalms dlowe 15:20:19 deepfire: I don't think many people would buy a product marketed as a facepalm 15:20:25 *dlowe* thinks Adlai. 15:20:26 sykopomp, does it fork? 15:20:39 Fare: http://github.com/sykopomp/chanl and no, it doesn't fork, it spawns threads. 15:20:42 Fare: it uses a thread pool 15:20:55 Adlai: he means loonix fork() 15:21:04 (right?) 15:21:25 ryepup, do I have to say that it's not how these thing work? 15:21:26 chanl uses Bordeaux-Threads right now, so it really depends on the implementation 15:21:29 ORthings 15:21:35 threads won't help me w/ SBCL that has a big compile lock 15:21:40 proun [n=proun@cpe-74-77-140-113.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:22:12 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:22:12 that's annoying :\ 15:22:34 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:22:36 deepfire: true, put some tits behind it and it'd sell 15:23:05 *Adlai* imagines a banner add for "The FacePalm of Sex" 15:23:22 so, about lisp! 15:23:24 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-31.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:24:53 trebor_dki pasted "float/double-to-string 8 times speed up (novice-code)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88071 15:25:36 sykopomp: chanl looks really neat. How's the performance? 15:26:13 ryepup: I would say it's on-par with locking+condvars, for the most part, which isn't saying much 15:26:14 <_3b> trebor_dki: quick test suggests you can ffi to printf pretty quickly on sbcl too 15:26:30 and you have to factor in the cost of creating channel objects (relatively lightweight instances) 15:27:16 but it also has a thread pool, so if you build up a bunch of threads, you don't really have to create new ones. 15:27:35 -!- killerstorm2 [n=alex_miz@sputnik.donapex.net] has left #lisp 15:27:52 and since it's all in-process, you don't need to serialize any values being sent through the channels, right? 15:27:53 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:28:00 sykopomp: how do you deal with processes that block? 15:28:00 correct 15:28:48 pkhuong: In general, if you send/recv, you should be prepared to block. 15:28:51 _3b: till now i do not know how to use ffi (besides the question how linking? is done - can i deliver one binary including the printf binding). 15:29:05 because the idea is that you're expecting to synchronise at that point. 15:29:06 sykopomp: right, but if you have a thread pool, then you just changed semantics. 15:29:17 the thread pool is unlimited. 15:29:23 you can keep creating new threads beyond the thread pool's soft limit. 15:29:34 it just keeps a certain number of threads around for convenience 15:30:11 so you don't have to worry about a process blocking while waiting for a queued task that may never get executed. 15:30:36 honestly, I get the feeling that I'd rather have in-lisp lightweight preemptive green threads 15:30:55 but this seemed like a good compromise 15:31:25 trebor_dki: what is rgl::random+-? 15:31:28 state machines! 15:31:29 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:31:38 ryepup: if you want to compare performance to existing libraries that do something similar, chanl is faster than csp, and an implementation of futures using chanl is lighterweight, and faster, than eager-future. 15:31:51 pkhuong: nooo :( 15:31:56 green threads please :( 15:32:39 <_3b> trebor_dki: if you are shipping a binary, then ffi shouldn't make that any harder 15:32:40 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84.217.3.180] has joined #lisp 15:32:41 Is it possible and advised to copy arrays using (make-array dims :initial-contents other-array)? 15:32:48 DSL -> state machine, call out to CL for computations. 15:33:09 -!- amaron [n=amaron@93.86.161.198] has quit ["leaving"] 15:33:15 pkhuong: are you referring to Paul Tarvydas's visual frameworks? 15:33:16 froydnj: oh, random+- returns a random-number with random-sign 15:33:26 sepi: only if you're copying a vector. 15:33:29 pkhuong: do you mean a state machine for writing the preemptive green threads, or state machines to encode the parallel behavior (as an interface)? 15:33:31 Adlai: no. 15:33:42 pkhuong: aha, so no 2d arrays :/ 15:33:50 sepi: I think alexandria has a pretty simple copy-array function 15:34:01 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:34:09 sykopomp: I mean that your processes should be state machines if you feel the need for lightweight threads. 15:34:18 f*ck common lisp.. 15:34:18 j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has joined #lisp 15:34:26 Adlai: I'll give that a shot 15:34:29 minion: alexandria for sepi 15:34:30 sepi: please look at alexandria: Alexandria is a collection of portable public domain utilities. http://www.cliki.net/alexandria 15:34:31 sepi: f*uck you too. 15:34:34 oops 15:34:36 _3b: do i have to ship it together with an object-file (library/dll)? 15:34:39 thanks pkhuong Adlai 15:35:02 <_3b> trebor_dki: not for printf, that should be in system libc 15:35:04 sykopomp: I wans't totally serious, only a little 15:35:10 sepi: you're welcome 15:35:18 clhs make-array 15:35:23 *_3b* assumes even windows should have that available 15:35:23 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm 15:35:28 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:35:32 pkhuong: it's more about expressing programs as collections of processes without worrying about heavy system threads. 15:35:35 sepi: if you read that page in the spec, you'll see why you can't copy arrays like that 15:35:43 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:36:41 sykopomp: and the best lightweight processes are state machines! 15:36:47 heh 15:37:49 Adlai: yeah, sorry. 15:38:13 _3b: for now i am happy starting using foreign libraries. i think ffi will be the next. in this case the function is fast and accurate enough so that there is no need. so you see i am a very slow ascending novice ;) 15:39:09 (after all i think it is a kind of solution) 15:39:34 <_3b> yeah, if you have what you need, that works too :) 15:40:30 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-14-150.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Success] 15:40:30 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 15:42:21 trebor_dki: so you're happy with the output of (rgl-double-to-string 1d0 1)? 15:42:23 *trebor_dki* wanted to show, that he is not only asking, but tries to solve his issues on his own, too 15:43:59 splittist: yes. 99E-2 is ok for 2 digits. 15:45:26 trebor_dki: as long as you're happy. When I try to write these sorts of things it's always the '.0's that trip me up (: 15:46:25 splittist: it practice dignum will never be less than 4 so (rgl-double-to-string 1d0 5) -> 999999E-6 i accurate for gnuplot and such. i know it is far from perfect, but it is short and works fast. 15:46:58 s/far from perfect/ugly 15:47:08 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 15:47:12 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:49:01 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:29 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:52:05 quadcore machine, using CCL: XCVB using POIU compiles in 2.4 seconds, with ASDF in 2.8 seconds. 15:52:10 Yay for parallelism 15:52:25 Fare: congratulations! 15:52:34 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 15:54:33 milanj [n=milan@91.150.119.100] has joined #lisp 15:57:20 <_3b> heh, even the mailing list software thought that darcs patch was too big :p 15:57:25 using SBCL: POIU => 5.5, ASDF => 5.0 15:57:44 meh 15:58:42 does it start new processes? 15:58:51 nope, it forks 15:59:49 building with new processes => 7.0 seconds 16:00:43 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:01:10 Fare: you know what's fun? Erlang's cascading failure mechanism + lisp's condition restarts :) 16:01:13 => omg yes 16:01:17 benny [n=benny@i577A0A04.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:02:23 sykopomp: are you MIXING them? 16:02:50 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 16:03:38 just how expensive is it to fork SBCL? (How do measure it?) 16:03:42 I never tested whether the incremental allocation patch improves the fork situation, in part because I wasn't aware of a fork issue. 16:03:54 rsynnott: no, I am. 16:03:56 But it doesn't seem obvious to me that it improves things. 16:04:16 isn't forking copy-on-write? 16:04:17 *Fare* notices more bitrot with CCL 16:04:21 rsynnott: I'm experimenting with using channels to provide cross-thread condition handling 16:04:50 sykopomp, so are you embedding the failed child's condition into the parent's condition? 16:05:17 lichtblau, you could try to compile things with POIU and compare :) 16:05:45 at least some linux kernel versions had trouble forking sbcl, since the vm data structures weren't copy on write 16:05:49 *_3b* wants an async version of the condition system, for use in flash/js type code with lots of callbacks everywhere 16:06:00 In a very unscientific benchmark comparing (time (sb-posix:fork)) between unpatched 1.0.12 and patched-for-incremental-allocation 1.0.12.42, the former says 0.004 seconds and the latter 0.003 seconds. 16:06:12 that is very unscientific indeed 16:06:24 and due to the way sbcl ends up creating a very fragmented memory map, copying the in-kernel data structures for a long running sbcl process was very expensive 16:06:28 _3b: that's what I'm working on 16:06:42 anyway, shouldn't fragmentation be -worse- with incremental allocation? 16:06:42 Fare: Right now, this is very unstructured and not tied into the threading code yet 16:07:03 lichtblau: I don't think it'd matter. the biggie is the fragmentation created by mprotect 16:07:13 <_3b> Adlai: i suspect it wouldn't be directly applicable, but i'll have to rememebr to look at what you come up with at some point :) 16:07:51 gigamonkey [n=user@76.254.18.170] has joined #lisp 16:07:56 (incremental allocation won't produce more fragmentation, since the kernel is smart enough to merge adjacent regions with the same flags) 16:08:16 gigamonkey: my copy of C@W arrived yesterday! 16:08:20 ah, good to know 16:09:43 khanh [n=undefine@222.253.98.165] has joined #lisp 16:10:05 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-174-63.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 16:10:30 -!- khanh [n=undefine@222.253.98.165] has left #lisp 16:10:46 is it possible to create an X window from within lisp? 16:11:01 like if i'm inside SBCL 16:11:05 rares: yeah. you can use clx. 16:11:30 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 16:11:35 so let's say i just started sbcl 16:11:35 rares: it is a lisp implementation of the X protocol. it is pretty low-level in many respects. 16:11:37 or some higher-level abstraction which will in turn use X11 (depending on environment) 16:11:47 GTK++, for instance 16:11:57 what do i do next 16:12:10 (require 'clx) ? 16:12:26 rares: i got clx via: darcs get http://common-lisp.net/~crhodes/clx 16:12:35 rares: symlinked the asd file into ~/.sbcl/systems/ 16:12:44 i have clx 16:13:06 (require :clx) (load "/path/to/clx/demo/hello.lisp") (xlib::hello-world) 16:13:12 rares: you'll also need asdf to load it 16:14:12 rares: do you want to use SBCL's native CLX, or a portable version? 16:14:20 nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has joined #lisp 16:14:32 Adlai: sbcl native CLX? 16:14:37 *Xach* didn't know there was such a thing 16:14:45 hmm, looks like I'm confused in that case. Nevermind. 16:15:01 (isn't that whatever (require :clx) gives you in SBCL?) 16:15:15 Adlai: you may be thinking of CMUCL 16:15:18 Adlai: maybe you're thinking of clisp, which has its own c-based clx 16:15:29 it might go by a slightly different name, though 16:15:34 ok, I'm thinking of clisp and new-clx and whatever. 16:15:44 *Adlai* tried running stumpwm on clisp for a while 16:16:16 http://garnetlisp.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html - fake motif for lisp! Yay! 16:16:28 oh god 16:16:37 rsynnott: they've managed to make it even more ugly 16:16:38 (what is it about motif that makes anyone think imitating its look and feel is an even vaguely good idea?) 16:16:59 to this day, QT ships with a Motif theme. On all platforms. 16:17:05 it's easier than designing something from scratch. 16:17:11 rsynnott: It was THE STANDARD on Unices for a long long time... 16:17:11 WWMD? 16:17:18 *Fare* fixes bitrot in compiling xcvb with ccl 16:17:58 *antifuchs* fondly remembers fvwm95 16:18:16 even pure win32 interfaces look better than motif (: 16:18:40 *Xach* fondly remembers fvwm-xpm 16:19:08 jsnell, is the mprotect fragmentation undone when mprotect sets the flags back to the same thing for contiguous blocks? 16:19:19 antifuchs, you're crazy. Fondly? 16:19:50 Fare: it was the first gui thing on my first suse linux install that even remotely resembled something usable (: 16:20:17 never mind the xeyes on the dock 16:20:40 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 16:22:09 fvwm was usable, too (pre "95") 16:22:27 tvtwm was survivable 16:22:50 antifuchs: somehow, poiu loses when compiling small files with sbcl 16:22:50 Fare: the configuration that suse shipped was particularly braindead, is all. 16:23:04 sounds plausible 16:23:07 fork has a lot of overhead 16:23:29 I suppose we didn't notice with qres because there are a lot of big files 16:23:35 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:39 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 16:23:42 Don't know how to REQUIRE CLX. 16:23:46 :( 16:23:59 Adlai: good news. (I saw your memo last night.) 16:24:05 Read any yet? 16:24:06 i'm a noobie 16:24:36 how do i make it work 16:24:58 gigamonkey: yep, I read two chapters right away, and then read half of the next one a bit later 16:25:23 I'm trying to actually get stuff done, though, so I can't spend too much time reading :( 16:25:29 Xach: oh, the motif theme isn't the default anywhere; it just ships in case someone should want to see something ugly 16:25:53 rsynnott: it's probably there so you can prank people. 16:26:36 "Aaagh! What happened to my display!?" 16:27:01 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:20 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-31.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 16:29:21 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:30 khanh [n=undefine@222.253.98.165] has joined #lisp 16:30:58 it's so corpix can stay ugly while they quietly switch to linux or bsd 16:32:42 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 16:33:09 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-45-9.w90-59.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:33:47 -!- khanh [n=undefine@222.253.98.165] has left #lisp 16:34:15 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:35:48 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@190.135.11.83] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:35:50 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 16:36:27 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:36:48 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:38:16 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:04 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:40:31 Xof: any idea why SAP-REF-FOO have *fixnums* for offset? 16:41:33 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-10-196.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:44:31 jmbr [n=jmbr@190.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:48:13 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 16:48:43 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 16:48:59 Monetizing Ugly 16:49:02 pkhuong: legacy reasons? unlikeliness of needing > fixnum offsets? 16:49:32 TR2N [i=email@89-180-223-75.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 16:52:32 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Absquatulandus sum"] 16:55:04 Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has joined #lisp 16:55:20 Thoughtlessness when creating the initial SAP-REF-FOO implementation, carried forwards by maintainers who didn't realize that it could do with re-thinking? 16:56:23 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:29 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:01 thought-lessp, or thoughtlessp? 16:57:09 Fare: I noticed you have an interest in matters of the great old ones. Back in uni, we had a yearly event around the time of the summer solstice where a group of us would try and summon cthulhu. Good times. 16:57:37 -!- h3 [n=heretic@cpc3-leic1-0-0-cust999.lei3.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:57:39 h3r3tic [n=heretic@86.3.27.232] has joined #lisp 16:58:33 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:00:04 sykopomp, did you sacrifice any virgins? 17:00:45 Fare: no, but we crawled through the entire campus and covered most of the ground surface in cthulhu-related propaganda, summoning circles, warnings, etc. 17:01:06 Cthulhu for President! 17:01:12 you mean you read this? http://fare.livejournal.com/tag/cthulhu 17:01:33 I've seen the tag, yeah 17:01:51 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:02:41 gonzojive_ [n=red@128.12.249.103] has joined #lisp 17:03:20 Fare: http://omploader.org/vMW1qZw Chulhu and I are bros by now. 17:04:09 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:04:33 *Fare* loses 4d6 SAN 17:04:36 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:06:15 though-less-p 17:06:31 tlessp :( 17:07:22 that is the only incorrect answer. 17:07:33 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:48 pkhuong: suspect froydnj and nyef have it right 17:08:09 Xach: Are you sure that it's not merely the only answer that can be demonstrated to be incorrect? 17:08:18 pkhuong: yesterday I had the unpleasant discovery that we don't have copy-double-float-from-system-area 17:08:45 phao [n=phao@20158133008.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 17:09:37 *nyef* notes that fixing the x86oid debugger to be able to access float-regs in a debug context is predicated on the ability to do -something- useful with long-floats. 17:09:55 is there any library for web page building? I mean, something with functions like "add-paragraph", "add-box", "add-menu", ... so that I could writer something in a "higher level" than html and of course do some programming before getting the html generated. 17:10:09 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@85.221.142.5] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:10:09 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:10:14 Xof: but at least it's easy to implement on top of what we have! (mostly) 17:11:01 ska` [n=user@124.157.196.89] has joined #lisp 17:11:09 phao: there are a few such frameworks 17:11:17 froydnj: yes, except that I had to dispatch on sb-vm:n-word-bytes for maximal efficiency 17:11:27 implementable, but only in evil ways 17:11:35 rebuilding by execing rather than forking, on this quad-core: 8 seconds with SBCL, 17 with CCL (reminder: with POIU, 5.5 vs 2.4, with ASDF: 5.0 vs 2.8). 17:11:36 I think that they're all part of larger web server frameworks, though. 17:11:37 Adlai, do you know any? 17:11:54 phao: weblocks, ucw, lisp-on-lines 17:11:57 phao: UCW, LoL, CL-DWIM, to name a few 17:11:58 ok 17:12:00 Xof: embrace the internals. 17:12:19 Xof: but it should be fairly trivial to add to the existing bit-bash interface...what did you need it for? 17:12:22 so startup is slower with CCL than SBCL, but forking is faster. 17:12:35 (or maybe it's image dumping that's slower with CCL) 17:12:44 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:13:03 thank you 17:13:32 froydnj: bindings to foreign libraries returning float arrays of unknown size 17:13:42 "need" is perhaps too strong 17:13:53 s/unknown size/variable size/ 17:14:22 Isn't there some way to persuade SB-ALIEN to do what you need anyway? 17:14:25 Xof: SAPs the ultimate void *. 17:14:25 ah...was this automagically generated by SB-ALIEN? 17:14:55 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:15:19 ASau [n=user@91.77.57.240] has joined #lisp 17:16:55 froydnj: no, it was hand-rolled, and yes, there's probably stuff in sb-alien that will do this 17:18:15 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:23:53 -!- ASau [n=user@91.77.57.240] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:23:56 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 17:24:15 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:24:52 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:28:24 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:28:35 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:29:23 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:33:30 I surely need to learn COmmon LISP 17:33:51 sounds like a plan 17:33:51 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:34:00 heh 17:34:06 Sounds more like a goal. 17:34:11 Or perhaps a sub-goal. 17:34:13 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:36:25 COmmon LISP? what's that? 17:37:37 stassats: apply your case-folding reader 17:38:10 (string-capitalize "COmmon LISP") => "Common Lisp" 17:38:14 now i see 17:38:43 *splittist* tries to quit by typing ,sayoonara... 17:38:47 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@147-35.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 17:42:42 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 17:42:51 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.90.231] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:42:58 so how do i get asdf to load cl-clx-sbcl in sbcl? 17:44:56 peddie [n=peddie@98.210.241.101] has joined #lisp 17:45:19 -!- ska` [n=user@124.157.196.89] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:47:04 -!- ejs [n=eugen@91.124.240.52] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:49:40 <_3b> any mac cl-opengl users around? 17:50:11 ska` [n=user@ppp-58-8-129-74.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 17:51:59 KingNato [n=patno@84-217-3-180.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:07 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:52:20 KingNato_ [n=patno@195.149.157.10] has joined #lisp 17:52:25 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 17:52:29 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:52:49 is it an ANSI-compliance bug if (make-array array-total-size-limit) returns an error? 17:52:49 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:53:00 s/return/signal/ 17:53:05 <_3b> probably depends on the error 17:53:07 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:53:16 Adlai: yes, it's an *exclusive* bound. 17:53:17 <_3b> don't think the spec requires you to have that much ram for example :) 17:54:03 pkhuong: wait, doesn't it being an exclusive bound mean that it's larger than the actual total size limit? 17:54:18 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:54:36 that means (make-array (1- array-total-size-limit)) 17:55:05 ok, so it's not an ANSI-compliance bug when my version errors. 17:55:24 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:55:30 although my Lisp does segfault when I eval it :) 17:55:39 sorry, yes it's compliant. 17:56:34 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-177-19.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:56:43 hmm, is it a bug if my Lisp segfaults when I eval that... :) 17:56:43 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:57:15 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:57:38 I guess it's more a theoretical bound. 17:57:47 and when you shoot yourself in the foot? 17:58:05 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@72.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:58:13 <_3b> nah, it is more than theoretical bound for bit arrays 17:58:36 _3b: you mean for normal arrays. 17:58:57 eh, nevermind that. 17:58:59 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 17:59:50 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@lawn-143-215-206-166.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 18:00:08 <_3b> also can get in the way on lisps with small fixnums like clisp 18:00:33 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@209.131.62.113] has joined #lisp 18:00:36 _3b: CCL. 18:01:10 <_3b> pkhuong: really? that could get annoying 18:01:54 They pack the length of vectors in the header. IIRC, the limit is 2^24. 18:02:21 (/ array-total-size-limit 32) => 524288 on ccl 18:02:25 Adlai: that reminds me a little of most-positive-bignum 18:02:42 Xach: ??? 18:03:11 "To infinity and beyond!"? 18:03:34 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:35 on 64-bit CCL, array-total-size-limit is 2^56 18:03:42 Adlai: http://jwz.livejournal.com/854482.html 18:03:50 <_3b> GPUs can handle bigger arrays than that :p (2^24 that is) 18:06:17 Xach: that web page is making my eyes hurt, but it's fascinating. 18:07:13 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:07:33 Xach: heh, thanks for pointing that out :) 18:08:30 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:08:44 djkthx [n=yacin@lawn-143-215-206-166.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 18:08:44 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:10:23 -!- KingNato [n=patno@84-217-3-180.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:10:23 -!- KingNato_ is now known as KingNato 18:12:11 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:14:04 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@190.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:14:05 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:14:20 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:19:13 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:19:26 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:25:25 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:26:03 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:27:37 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:33:13 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:21 Astro [n=astro@saturn.astro.spaceboyz.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:49 -!- Astro is now known as Guest43295 18:38:15 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:38:38 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:39:07 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@72.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:44:59 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:00 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:45:04 bye 18:45:15 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:45:37 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06c4f7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["farewell"] 18:46:02 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-11-230.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:46:42 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:53:04 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@93-82-15-166.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:54:28 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-177-19.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:54:35 i'm debian cl-clx-sbcl is installed how do i load it? 18:55:06 rares: (require :clx)? 18:55:12 don't install lisp packages from debian? 18:55:20 ^ 18:55:52 rares: hi debian i'm adlai 18:56:17 well how do I make it do its thing 18:56:38 rares: (require :clx) may or may not work. 18:56:38 i just want to script X window system from lisp 18:56:59 And your first mistake was to use debian packages to install lisp stuff. 18:57:06 it says it doesn't know how to require it 18:57:18 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [No route to host] 18:57:24 um no i like a clean box 18:57:28 rares: ask the debian maintainers. They know what the hell they're doing. 18:58:01 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 18:58:08 They presumably know, at least. 18:58:13 well, no, i shouldn't claim that. They've shown how clueless tehy really are in the past. 18:58:19 See? 18:58:28 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:58:51 I would counter-suggest that the instructions would have to be in amongst the copious debian documentation. 18:58:57 minion: please tell rares about clbuild 18:58:58 rares: direct your attention towards clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 18:59:11 rares: the debian CL packages are old and unmaintained 18:59:11 having a clean box is not the same as using crusty outdated software 18:59:23 rares: use that. That's how we usually install CL libraries. 18:59:23 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:59:31 why do i keep getting updates then 18:59:52 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:00:29 I'd suggest that you know more about your motivations in getting updates than we would. 19:01:17 i mean apt says they get updated 19:01:21 deafmacro [n=user@59.92.167.47] has joined #lisp 19:01:28 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:02:00 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:04:21 Thingo1 [n=mariushk@cm-84.208.89.85.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 19:04:42 -!- deafmacro [n=user@59.92.167.47] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:04:43 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:05:01 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:05:28 pepone [n=pepone@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 19:06:36 addled_ [n=adl@77.208.159.213] has joined #lisp 19:12:14 (clc:clc-require :clx) works 19:12:45 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 19:13:13 rares: maybe, but CLC doesn't. 19:13:19 (require 'clx) 19:13:32 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.16.238] has joined #lisp 19:13:39 <_3b> did they at least get past sbcl 1.0.18 yet? 19:13:57 bah 1.0.18 is the peak of sbcl 19:14:13 -!- addled_ [n=adl@77.208.159.213] has quit [Client Quit] 19:14:43 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:15:11 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:15:29 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:16:21 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:33 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit 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herep 19:24:59 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:25:19 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:26:46 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:26:57 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:28:20 pr_ [n=pr@p579CACCB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:22 -!- [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.83.64] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:29:23 -!- pr_ is now known as pr 19:30:45 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:30:45 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:30:45 -!- bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:30:45 -!- avigesaa [n=avigesaa@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:30:45 -!- ASau 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quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:38:20 minion: memo for lichtblau: I think I've run into a bug in your atdoc. I get an error when I try to add a loose '@' in doc strings. Escaping them ('@@') doesn't work either, but looking at the code seems I can't really see anything wrong (and it does provide exactly that escaping for @ chars)... 19:38:20 Remembered. I'll tell lichtblau when he/she/it next speaks. 19:40:31 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 19:41:59 francogrex [n=user@110.57-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 19:43:05 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:44:31 KingNato_ [n=patno@84-217-3-180.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:06 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:45:16 what do you think of this code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/88079 19:45:17 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:45:31 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@92.229.240.51] has quit ["humhum"] 19:46:14 francogrex: having a global special named I is a bad idea. 19:46:39 ... Okay, I want my internet back again. 19:47:10 avigesaa [n=avigesaa@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:47:10 dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:47:11 *_3b* thinks "Index -1 out of bounds for (SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER (0)), should be nonnegative and <0." 19:47:15 nyef: if your internet down too? 19:47:27 Well it's not -down- down, but it's down. 19:47:35 I get no name resolution and can't make new connections. 19:47:36 jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:47:36 bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:47:47 me too; I thought it was a local thing. 19:47:47 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:47:50 <_3b> (in other words, it works better to verify the array is long enough /before/ you access it) 19:47:55 Xach: yes true ok. but what about the recursiv fnx. is it ugly? 19:48:19 I was wondering if it were a fairpoint thing, but you're at work, aren't you? 19:48:21 francogrex: I wish it had a docstring or descriptive name. It's hard to quickly tell what it's supposed to do. 19:48:23 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:48:23 <_3b> recursive seems a bit silly for the task 19:48:44 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-091-230.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 105 (No buffer space available)] 19:48:46 alec [n=aberryma@63.107.91.99] has joined #lisp 19:48:53 3b : why silly? 19:49:24 yeah, I'm at work. oh look, I think it's back. 19:49:25 Xach: it trims letters from a string at its right to return the root 19:49:41 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:50:03 simple 19:50:09 francogrex: Yes, it's ugly. 19:50:13 danlei [n=user@pD9E2D2F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:14 <_3b> francogrex: if you are just using recusion for iteration, and not programming scheme, it seems silly to me 19:50:22 Xach: com on man 19:50:30 francogrex: I would use (position-if-not #'alpha-char-p string :from-end t) 19:50:40 ok 19:51:11 <_3b> francogrex: also, so far it has broken on every input i've tried :p 19:51:11 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:51:14 francogrex: It's indented wrong. It doesn't have a descriptive name or a docstring. It includes debug output. It is needlessly complicated. 19:51:31 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:52:34 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q96n_nnDhxU -- fun -- "lenovo thinkpad, grandma proof" :) 19:52:37 -!- KingNato [n=patno@195.149.157.10] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:52:38 -!- KingNato_ is now known as KingNato 19:52:51 Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-091-230.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 19:53:56 3b: this surprises me that it breaks, it works well for me; how about the exapmolle i've given does it work? 19:53:58 frito [n=user@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 19:54:05 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:54:05 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A052.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:54:35 <_3b> that probably works, didn't try that though 19:54:48 mishoo: Wrong channel. 19:54:52 <_3b> try "" or "aa" or "aab" 19:54:54 bgs100 [n=ian@h88.177.130.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:23 Xach: I'm sorry, I thought it was too funny.. 19:55:29 won't do that again, promise 19:55:59 3b yes aab" you're right. I had that problem before with something similar i've made 19:56:19 It just occurred to me how a markov-chain text generator works, and that I've been missing the obvious for a little while. 19:56:34 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:59:13 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:59:39 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:59:42 nyef: what is a "markov-chain text generator" and how does it relate to common lisp here? 20:01:25 isn't the automatic CL tester based on a markov-chain text generator? 20:01:30 where is pfdietz? 20:01:37 Heh. 20:01:43 he is almost to level 80 20:01:45 nyef, what have you been missing? 20:02:13 Xach, uh? 20:03:01 Fare: MMORPGs don't just play themselves, you know! ...or maybe he invented an automatic program for that, too... 20:03:06 Fare: The obvious method: Just bloody run the markov model under simulation. Almost all the literature I've read on them are about training, finding state paths for given observation sequences, etc. 20:03:18 Xach: Umm... Some of them -do- just play themselves. 20:04:36 we lost pfdietz to a MMORPG? 20:05:29 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:05:42 Fare: I don't know, actually. chandler mentioned he was playing WoW or something, several years ago. 20:06:26 chandler rementioned that to me a few days ago 20:06:56 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:07:02 He was playing WoW a lot in 2006? Or he is still playing a lot of WoW? 20:07:18 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:07:52 *Xach* once interviewed a candidate who, when asked what he does in his spare time, for fun, said "Play world of warcraft. That's actually about it." 20:08:06 Awesomeness 20:08:12 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:08:16 It's all about improving your social skills. 20:09:25 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:09:26 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:09:56 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:10:16 *Xach* can sympathize somewhat, having had a vicious internet Doom addiction 20:11:06 Xach: I took it to mean he's still playing a lot of WoW 20:11:38 I can see how one might need a few years to recover from ansi-tests 20:13:32 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:14:42 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:15:27 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:15:27 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has 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error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:52:05 -!- ruediger_ is now known as ruediger 20:54:39 dmiles [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:39 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:54:44 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 20:54:53 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:55:03 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:55:11 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["restarting ERC"] 20:55:55 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:56:19 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:57:49 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:59:33 Anyone else in here using or used lichtblau's documentation thingy 'atdoc'? 21:02:00 -!- alec_ [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:02:00 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:02:25 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:02:29 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:04:06 sepult`` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-121-32.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:06:18 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483FB3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:06:19 setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:09:29 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-12345.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 21:13:30 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 21:13:31 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:13:45 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-84-210.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:14:01 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:16:33 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:41 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has joined #lisp 21:19:23 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-73-77.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:22:14 codemonk1yx [n=codemonk@www.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:45 -!- codemonkeyx [n=codemonk@www.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:23:26 say i have this: (defparameter *pm* '(("zpm" 17) ("zvm" 40147) ("avm" 40148) ("avm" 7))) 21:23:59 and then (setf *pm* (sort *pm* #' string< :key #'car)).. ok how to sort both the car and then the cadr in one go? 21:24:14 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 21:24:33 What are you actually trying to do? 21:24:50 something like the sorting sequentially of excel 21:25:05 now it gives: (("avm" 40148) ("avm" 7) ("zpm" 17) ("zvm" 40147)) 21:25:08 Let's assume that I'm unfamiliar with that feature of Excel. 21:25:13 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 21:25:31 say i want it to give: (("avm" 7) ("avm" 40148) ("zpm" 17) ("zvm" 40147)) 21:25:38 francogrex: you want to sort by the first value and resolve ties by the second one? 21:25:44 jyujin__ [n=mdeining@vs166245.vserver.de] has joined #lisp 21:25:45 jsnell_ [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has joined #lisp 21:25:45 ``Erik_ [i=Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:46 djinni`` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:47 guaqua_ [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 21:26:01 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:26:01 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@118.210.164.226] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:26:01 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:26:01 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:26:01 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] 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irc.freenode.net] 21:26:05 turbo24prg_ [n=turbo24p@mail.turbolent.com] has joined #lisp 21:26:05 write your own test function for the sort 21:26:06 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-181-16.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:26:07 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 21:26:08 so sorting acsending on both the car and then the cadr 21:26:10 Adlai yes 21:26:11 or, alternative method: use stable-sort, and make multiple passes 21:26:13 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-142-61.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:13 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 21:26:18 chls stable-sort 21:26:27 spiaggia` [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 21:26:27 boyscare1 [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:27 pkhuong_ [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:26:27 guenthr_ [n=unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has joined #lisp 21:26:27 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:26:27 setheus 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joined #lisp 21:26:59 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:27:13 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:27:15 wow, I'm lagging a lot 21:27:19 sorry 21:27:30 is there a netsplit? 21:27:59 yeah 21:27:59 no 21:27:59 they killed a server 21:28:00 Yes. 21:28:00 clhs stable-sort 21:28:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sort_.htm 21:28:05 Well, or that. 21:28:16 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:28:23 But the internets have been behaving funny this afternoon anyway. 21:30:39 -!- ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 21:31:03 jeti [n=jeti@p548EFAB7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:43 redblue [i=star@ppp019.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:36:59 -!- Dodek_ is now known as Dodek 21:37:05 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 21:37:22 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 21:40:10 -!- 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[n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:01:02 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:01:12 rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:02:28 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:04:55 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:06:53 Adlai`` [n=adlai@93-173-147-95.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 22:07:13 -!- Adlai`` is now known as Adlai 22:09:14 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:10:21 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:10:38 -!- pqlamz [n=user@72.170.156.242] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:11:41 mnl [n=mnl@n15-60.dsl.vianetworks.de] has joined #lisp 22:13:55 DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:06 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:16:41 -!- St0rmMolest [n=St0rmMol@c83-251-37-177.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:19:01 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-45-9.w90-59.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:21:33 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:22:17 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:51 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.83] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:26:31 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:27:35 hikagemono [n=hikagemo@ppp-93-104-72-223.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 22:27:45 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 22:27:48 -!- hikagemono [n=hikagemo@ppp-93-104-72-223.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has left #lisp 22:29:25 I'd have a simple question: is there a way to 'remove' some code from a lisp image ? 22:29:47 when I'm programming, I'm loading some code in the image 22:30:09 when I modify a function or variable, the old version is overwritten in the image 22:30:35 but if I modify a function's name, the 'old' symbol is still in the image, with the old code 22:30:50 galdor: yes 22:31:07 clhs fmakunbound 22:31:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fmakun.htm 22:31:12 it isn't usually a problem, but when I'm writting a FFI binding, it is 22:31:13 clhs makunbound 22:31:14 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_makunb.htm 22:31:15 -!- icecube^away [n=icecube@p549C706F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:31:24 Adlai: Wrong one. 22:31:39 (Well, not for a variable, I guess.) 22:31:41 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:31:42 oh seems to be what I'm searching 22:31:43 nyef: true. I thought symbol -> variable 22:31:47 thank you :) 22:31:55 galdor: also, if the issue is with the symbol itself: 22:31:57 clhs unintern 22:31:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_uninte.htm 22:32:10 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-12345.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:32:42 Might be trickier on SBCL or CMUCL: They have this "infodb" thing which might need hammering as well. And other implementations might have something similar. 22:33:31 -!- andrewks [n=aks@ottawa-hs-206-191-39-60.d-ip.magma.ca] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:36:36 benny` [n=benny@i577A05B5.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:37:22 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0A04.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:37:26 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:41:20 22:45:55 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:46:19 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:49:35 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:50:11 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-58-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:56:25 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 22:57:22 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:59:57 -!- benny` is now known as benny 23:02:54 charliekilo [n=ck@24.144.224.87] has joined #lisp 23:03:20 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88.149.208.60] has joined #lisp 23:03:22 -!- proun [n=proun@cpe-74-77-140-113.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["leaving"] 23:04:54 -!- mnl [n=mnl@n15-60.dsl.vianetworks.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:06:40 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:11:43 -!- pkhuong_ is now known as pkhuong 23:17:16 -!- necroforest [n=jarred@pool-173-79-168-92.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:18:27 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-132-92-40.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:14 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:35 do classes really have a place when following the functional programming paradigm? not totally lisp but it was while using lisp that the question occurred to me 23:25:27 Guthur: while some lisps (Scheme dialects, for example) are very functional, Common Lisp is not that functional a language. 23:25:38 Guthur: sure. Typeclasses implement ad hoc polymorphism. 23:25:42 They can. The important part of the functional is that data structures are immutable. 23:26:29 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:26:45 nyef my thought is that classes are overkill in that situation because part of their remit is data encapsulation, which in turn is affected via class methods 23:27:15 Umm... What is this "encapsulation" of which you speak? 23:27:17 adlai true but you are not forced to abandon functional with common list 23:27:34 *list lisp 23:27:44 nyef: The hiding of mutable state etc. 23:27:54 Guthur: (assuming OO is about encapsulation) and? Why can't you have data hiding and FP? 23:28:16 Guthur: A lot of CLOS's power is in the generic function system, which isn't really about encapsulation 23:28:46 Makoryu: Hiding? I'll cheerfully use WITH-SLOTS on any random instance from anywhere. It's not particularly hidden. 23:30:13 Guthur: CLOS does no data hiding. I think of classes as convenient collections of data that may or may not change (if it changes, it's convenient to do so that way) 23:30:28 pkhuong would data need to be all that hidden if you are strictly following FP, its all immutable 23:31:40 Guthur: does data really need to be hidden even with mutability? 23:31:43 sykopomp, ya imperative programming is very convenient, I have to admit its was only a recent thought, haven't done much FP to be fair 23:31:59 Guthur: it's still extremely useful to ensure that an interface is used correctly if you're the paranoid type. Existential types are very useful. 23:34:32 I should probably try a little more of the FP paradigm first, its just I started questioning why I was creating classes if I was building my program in a purely functional way, they were just becoming convenient collections of data 23:35:15 Guthur: CLOS and function-level program mix quite well. If you insist on adding immutability, that probably works nicely, too. 23:35:38 *sykopomp* thinks that having a SEQUENCE-based library of fancy 'immutable' data structures would be handy 23:35:48 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:42 its was just one of those thoughts that I felt like talking about I suppose, I tried google first but there wasn't anything immediately forecoming on the matter 23:37:40 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:39:15 though I have made use of the CLOS initialize-instance to conveniently set data dependent on some other user set slot-values which is a nice example of the usefulness 23:39:17 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@32.158.238.36] has joined #lisp 23:41:01 milanj- [n=milan@77.46.210.39] has joined #lisp 23:42:01 Guthur: empirically, existential types and type classes (a mix of late binding, data hiding and generic programming) were found very useful in Haskell. 23:43:34 pkhuong and for sure its users have more experience in FP than myself 23:44:02 need to build more to get a better understanding i think 23:44:39 not a bad thing, LISP is a rather pleasant way to spend ones free time 23:45:09 now if I can find a recent to use it at uni that would even better 23:45:36 a "recent"? 23:47:05 reason, oops sorry 23:47:44 it is quite late, thats my excuse and i'm sticking to it 23:47:51 Riiight. 23:48:01 And finding an excuse to use Lisp shouldn't be hard. 23:48:54 ya i have a few ideas, either a OO database, or some intelligent system, though not sure i have the time for either to be fair 23:48:59 -!- milanj [n=milan@91.150.119.100] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:49:13 -!- maskd [n=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:49:17 Those are a bit high-flying, really. 23:50:04 indeed, doubt they would be full fledged, but it is a MSc in Computing and Intelligent Systems 23:50:22 need to do something pretty decent 23:50:53 Bah. Just use it for your day-to-day random calculations. 23:51:09 the two modules I can possibly use it in is DB's and KBS/AI 23:51:35 What's the S in KBS? 23:51:35 nyef Matlab is so much more convenient though 23:51:45 knowledge based systems 23:51:46 maskd [n=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has joined #lisp 23:51:49 -!- HET4 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:51:53 Ah. 23:52:08 *nyef* doesn't have Matlab. 23:52:18 neither do i but the uni does 23:52:30 hhh, $60 or something like that 23:52:49 Hrm. $60. Matlab or beer? 23:52:59 Matlab or books? 23:53:01 thats the cheap version 23:53:07 Matlab 23:53:10 Even worse. 23:53:45 Matlab or a 500 gig drive for my laptop? 23:53:57 library is good so don't need books, and i don't drink so don't need that, and I am a student so very poor 23:54:52 library had a copy of ANSI CLISP which was nice 23:55:01 very expensive book now 23:55:27 ... What? Last time I saw it it was all of $50. 23:55:45 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:55:46 ya like i said expensive hehe 23:55:48 (Assuming we're talking about Graham's abomination, that is.) 23:55:48 -!- nvoorhies_ is now known as nvoorhies 23:56:00 lol its not that bad 23:56:10 It's not that good either. 23:56:35 ... you're on the eastern side of the pond, aren't you? 23:56:44 ya UK 23:57:41 would you recommend any particular book, the net has it all of course but its nice to have something to read in the bath etc 23:57:43 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@128.12.249.103] has quit [] 23:58:07 What, and get the pages wet as you turn them? 23:58:37 lol i try to keep that out of the water, its not that deep 23:59:05 You dry your hands every time you turn the page? 23:59:19 And that's assuming a book-holder. 23:59:28 Kindle: Tub Edition 23:59:34 Heh. 23:59:44 Waterproof kindles? 23:59:59 Guthur: i like Practical Common Lisp and Paradigms of AI Programming quite a lot