00:00:04 hrm. nope. ah 00:00:56 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:01:00 *Adlai* hides in shame 00:01:15 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:01:54 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:02:12 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:02:54 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:11:40 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-48-147.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 00:11:58 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-84-210.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:15:15 rpg_ [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 00:15:26 -!- andelf [n=andelf@119.118.225.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:17:21 is there a better way to do this: (t (nth 0 (list 0 (print "Strange error")))) (i.e. i want 0, but want to print something while im at it) 00:17:36 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:17:41 this is supposed to be the last conditional in (cond 00:18:02 (print "Strange Error") 0 00:18:14 which isnt supposed to be reached, but i have suspicions. 00:19:34 In that case, consider using error or maybe cerror if it's not supposed to happen. 00:19:49 Penggu: cond lets you put multiple forms 00:20:02 (cond ... (t (print "huh?") 0)) 00:20:19 i c. 00:23:44 Penggu: ERROR instead of PRINT will make you happier because it will drop you in the debugger, where you can do something to diagnose/fix your error. 00:23:46 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:24:02 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:24:10 -!- rpg_ is now known as rpg 00:24:19 ill have to learn debugger 00:24:43 *Penggu* tries to rtfm debugger 00:24:46 There isn't that much to the debugger. Are you using SLIME? 00:24:59 nah just shell+vim 00:25:01 Penggu: Debugger varies a big b/w implementations. What CL are you using/ 00:25:17 s/big/bit/ 00:25:29 Penggu: well, you can usually just type 'help' when you hit the debugger to see your options 00:25:32 gcl 00:25:41 minion: sbcl for Penggu 00:25:42 Penggu: please look at sbcl: Steel Bank Common Lisp is an open source / free software Common Lisp implementation. http://www.cliki.net/sbcl 00:25:51 fully compatible? 00:25:58 this thing *must work 100% with clisp 00:25:59 Penggu: no offense, but get yourself a real Lisp :\ 00:26:11 i mean, gcl 00:26:38 wait, by GCL do you mean "GCL" or "GNU CLISP"? Those are two different implementations, unfortunately... 00:26:46 uhm 00:26:49 1sec 00:26:50 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:26:51 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 00:27:01 try evaluating (lisp-implementation-type) 00:27:35 on my pc: GNU CLISP 2.44.1 (2008-02-23) (built 3427316844) (memory 3463290134) 00:27:42 at uni, where we're going to be checked: GNU CLISP 2.41.1 (2007-10-12) (built on lisse.leuven.wieers.com [127.0.0.1]) 00:27:44 ok, that's CLISP :) 00:28:31 i installed something on windows, but even comand line arguments dont work, e.g clisp -i loadfile.lisp 00:28:43 so i gave up and am working in VM/linux 00:28:59 will sbcl give me compat. problems? 00:29:08 not if you stick with ANSI CL 00:29:12 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h52n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:29:26 Clisp is a fine implementation of Lisp. 00:29:59 you should probably be using an integration mode, though -- I think there are a few available for vim 00:30:30 minion: nekthuth? 00:30:31 nekthuth: Nekthuth: Connection with a Lisp Nekthuth is the combination of a vim plugin and a common lisp library which enables vim users to start up or connect to a CL interpreter inside vim, and do interesting things with it. http://www.cliki.net/nekthuth 00:31:07 hm, sbcl running 00:31:41 minion: logs 00:31:41 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 00:32:32 ah, i thought IDE = something like eclipse or netbeans or something 00:32:41 code stepping 00:32:49 stacks, etc 00:32:54 (visual) 00:32:56 Penggu: the point isn't to use SBCL; it's to use SLIME, or some vim mode 00:33:08 SLIME is a great IDE -- arguably better than Eclipse or NetBeans 00:33:32 isabellf [n=isabellf@bas2-montreal31-1242480105.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:33:50 If you use slime, though, you're best off also using SBCL, as it has the best slime support 00:34:07 slime == emacs? 00:34:47 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 00:35:06 yes 00:35:06 hm, never use emacs before 00:35:08 here goes nothign 00:35:53 there are vi bindings available for emacs, too, if you wish to use those. 00:36:58 andelf [n=andelf@119.118.225.230] has joined #lisp 00:38:15 Penggu: slime cheat sheet -> http://www.cs.rochester.edu/~cgomez/CSC244_files/slimecommands.pdf 00:38:16 If you're using emacs, you should (eventually) use it as it was meant to be used and give up the vi bindings. :-) 00:39:01 is there any reason to use gensym over make-symbol? 00:39:18 well, to be precise: to use (gensym "foo") over (make-symbol "foo") 00:39:31 all you really need to know is M-x flutterby 00:40:16 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 00:40:53 clhs gensym 00:40:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_gensym.htm 00:41:58 Guess there isn't really any difference. 00:42:02 No connection. Start Slime? (y or n) ; apply: Searching for program: no such file or directory, lisp .. it wont detect sbcl would it? 00:42:30 -!- isabellf [n=isabellf@bas2-montreal31-1242480105.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["Parti"] 00:42:53 Penggu: did you read the setup instructions? 00:43:35 *Penggu* scrabbles for the web page that was closed a little while ago 00:44:32 -!- fledna [n=andelf@60-199-104-194.static.tfn.net.tw] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:46:05 this jsut in: people are stupid 00:50:02 -!- gusl [n=user@137.82.157.106] has left #lisp 00:50:21 *Adlai* tunes in for more news 00:50:23 minion: chant 00:50:23 MORE ABOUT PROGRAMMING 00:50:42 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 00:50:50 minion: chant 00:50:51 MORE ABOUT PROGRAMMING 00:51:02 the_bear_jew: tell us more news! 00:51:03 minion: chant 00:51:04 MORE NEWS 00:51:38 Penggu: tell me something useful! 00:51:42 minion: chant 00:51:42 MORE NEWS 00:52:48 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 00:55:18 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:56:17 roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 00:58:05 -!- rotzak [n=rotzak@c-98-246-146-239.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:08:12 is there a way to grant edit access to someone else on cl-user.net? 01:08:12 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:08:47 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:51 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 01:12:59 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:13:19 kingless [n=user@adsl-144-174-240.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:06 -!- ruediger_ [n=ruediger@188-23-94-68.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:16:15 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:17:25 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:28 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@90.149.117.111] has joined #lisp 01:29:11 mdh [n=user@cpe-76-88-124-101.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:29:34 -!- Monk1 [n=a@cpe-74-74-140-173.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:30:35 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:30:57 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 01:31:16 dralston [n=dralston@70.69.230.164] has joined #lisp 01:32:57 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:33:26 sykopomp: I just sent out a tc-lispers email. If you get a chance, drop me a line with the info about your October presentation. 01:34:18 anyone know how to sent F12 through putty to vim? 01:34:20 rpg: anything in particular you want to know? 01:34:24 or just the blurb? 01:34:42 The email has some questions.... 01:35:01 right right 01:35:15 the_bear_jew3 [n=the_bear@cpe-76-172-12-145.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:35:21 slather [n=Richard@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 01:40:02 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ccrxhddssrkpelpm] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:41:25 -!- kingless [n=user@adsl-144-174-240.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit ["time for bed!"] 01:42:30 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:48:09 rpg: I screwed up the reply, but there you go :) 01:51:16 w00t. i have a difficult game of Connect 4 palying against me 01:51:17 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:51:25 only prob it crashes towards the end 01:52:12 (aborted attempts at getting a nice ide going doesnt help i guess) 01:52:15 -!- the_bear_jew [n=the_bear@w005.z209031033.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:52:20 sykopomp: Thanks! I'll try to update that page tomorrow. 01:52:27 thanks :) 01:52:40 sykopomp: gotta go now... 01:52:48 I'm a bit nervous. I've been working on stuff other than sheeple for a few weeks and feel like I should get back to it to have something more presentable :\ 01:52:53 alright, cheers o7 01:53:35 -!- dralston [n=dralston@70.69.230.164] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:53:35 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:54:04 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 02:05:27 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441541.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:06:03 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:07:04 -!- younder [n=jpthing@113.14.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 02:07:35 jlf [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 02:09:37 *mcspiff* thinks he might have just figured out why call/cc is useful... 02:09:43 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:21:59 anyone have any ideas why (run-program "/usr/bin/python" nil :wait nil :input :stream :output :stream) does not seem to work 02:22:14 reading from the stream blocks and writing does not seem to do anything 02:22:32 ie if i write "quit()~%" and force-output process is still runnig 02:23:07 xristos: flush? 02:23:48 ? 02:23:58 i force-output on my writes 02:29:17 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954F2BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:36:38 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:39 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:37:59 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:38:12 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 02:38:45 Good morning! 02:40:59 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:41:58 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:44:48 untitled1 [n=untitled@150.197-26-211.dynamic.dsl.mel.iprimus.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:45:02 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:27 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:48:04 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:48:20 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 02:51:14 xristos, try cat | python -- in non-terminal mode it doesn't evaluate each line at a time 02:51:28 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@121.186.10.225] has quit ["to the island"] 02:54:09 wgl: Around? 02:58:41 Morning, beach. 02:59:04 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:59:55 hi folks, is there a short hand for intern? 02:59:56 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:00:18 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 03:00:28 is zero plural? 03:00:34 "zero points" 03:00:37 "one point" 03:01:00 clhs ~P 03:01:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_chc.htm 03:01:09 rullie: six letters is too much for you? 03:01:17 Penggu: In English? Yeah. 03:01:23 Penggu: The spec, as always, has the last word about this. 03:01:34 Makoryu: i was asking from an English p.o.v. 03:01:38 0 > 1 03:01:43 gigamonkey: hehe... 03:02:18 gigamonkey: Perhaps he's writing code like (when (find-package :foo) ...) 03:02:36 i.e. with run-time dependency to a package 03:03:32 The need to use intern explicitly is rather annoying. I'd like if the syntax foo:::bar would only try to intern BAR in FOO if FOO is available and would otherwise turn to NIL 03:09:01 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-235-032.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:19 rtoym: herep 03:14:41 Any info on the c-l.net issue? 03:14:57 hey guys 03:14:59 im out 03:15:04 thank you very much 03:15:19 rtoym: I think I know what the problem is--i need to adjust the squid config. 03:15:20 connect-4 is kinda working now 03:15:27 i have prolog next 03:15:29 *sigh* 03:15:31 -!- Penggu [n=me@222.96.96.58.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [] 03:15:44 It is kind of a tcpdump session. 03:16:23 Really? That sounds like a difficult problem, then. 03:17:24 The problem would not normally be all that difficult, but tracd logging is at best primitive, so one needs to sometimes do tcpdump to see what is actually happening. Is there a simple non-logged-in use case that replicates the problem? 03:20:02 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:21:51 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:22:24 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 03:25:04 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-223-091.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:30:28 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:31:00 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.23.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:34:23 wgl: Not sure if it helps, but after I log in, I get problems with any page that requires submitting information. Things like adding a new ticket, updating a ticket, creating a new wiki page or editing an existing one. 03:35:12 ziyv [n=ziyv@58.217.217.58] has joined #lisp 03:35:26 Or even trying to edit a page and then pressing cancel. Then the address bar shows http:://localhost/cmucl/wiki/WikiStart, for example. 03:36:09 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:36:39 rtoym: do you have a minute to try one or two experiments? 03:36:56 Sure. 03:38:58 redblue [i=star@ppp190.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:39:07 Ok, can you give the same thing a try now--changed one config. 03:39:40 S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has joined #lisp 03:41:06 wgl: Hey, it seems to be working now! 03:41:31 login/logout seems to be working now too. 03:41:39 rtoym: Changed a line in the squid config file from localhost to trac.common-lisp.net, so this might be it. 03:42:21 rtoym: I monitor #tech.coop more regularly than here. 03:43:23 wgl: Everything seems to be working as it used to be. Thanks! And I'll try to remember to join tech.coop when I have problems 03:43:56 younder [n=jpthing@113.14.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 03:44:28 I do check here, but in gulps. 03:44:58 -!- ziyv [n=ziyv@58.217.217.58] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:45:48 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:46:01 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 03:46:28 rtoym: any feeling about performance of the trac stuff? 03:49:43 hi, i have (x1 x2 x3) and (y1 y2 y3), i want to get (x1 y1 x2 y2 x3 y3), any easy way of doing this? 03:49:54 wgl: It's been pretty slow. 03:50:34 rtoym: Any comparison to couple of weeks ago? 03:51:37 wgl: Actually, now that it's working like it used to, it appears to be quite a bit faster now. No hard measurements, though. It seems faster. 03:51:51 well you want a zip function 03:52:00 Ok, well theory is squid buffers stuff highly. 03:52:30 kinda suckish that CL doesn't have it 03:52:58 wgl: Actually, it seems quite a bit faster now than just before you fixed it. I can get the roadmap and timeline pages much faster than before. 03:53:48 the best approach is to use do and paralell traversal over both (or better still all) lists 03:54:55 rtoym: Ok, i am not convinced that trac is the right thing in the long run. 03:57:40 zip for n elements can be done recursivly. zip the zip 03:57:47 -!- pragma_ [n=pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:58:33 younder: doesn't sound at all hard to implement 03:58:47 pragma_ [n=pragma@blackshell.com] has joined #lisp 03:58:47 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:48 No 03:59:15 -!- pragma_ is now known as Guest83582 04:00:02 (defun zip (&rest lists) (let ((result)) (cons (mapcar (lambda (x) (push (pop x) result)) lists) (apply #'zip (mapcar #'rest lists))) 04:00:05 or similar 04:00:17 hm, I think I missed a paren. 04:01:27 also other stuff. 04:02:23 -!- Guest83582 [n=pragma@blackshell.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:03:46 malsyned [n=malsyned@24-151-107-209.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:05:17 So CLISP doesn't seem to have an IRC channel. Can I ask here why trying to pipe things to it and read them from stdin doesn't work the way I expect? 04:05:31 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E016.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:05:38 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E016.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:41 sure clisp is a common lisp 04:06:10 malsyned: probably because it prints a big noisy banner when it starts? 04:06:18 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.50.31] has joined #lisp 04:06:20 might not read from non-interactive stdin properly either 04:06:24 Ralith: nah, that's not it. 04:06:31 clisp -q -x '(read)' 04:06:34 pragma_ [n=pragma@blackshell.com] has joined #lisp 04:06:40 You can shut te banner off 04:06:44 and it tells me ** - READ: input stream # has reached its end 04:06:57 malsyned: so what did you pipe to it? 04:07:02 -!- pragma_ is now known as Guest80218 04:07:29 -!- the_bear_jew3 [n=the_bear@cpe-76-172-12-145.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:07:45 S11001001: actually, in that instance I didn't. But the same thing happens with echo "'test" | clisp -q -x '(read)' 04:08:24 (test) ? 04:08:26 srcerer_ [n=chatzill@63.196.107.132] has joined #lisp 04:09:34 actually, the single-quote is silly in that, but shouldn't affect the result. 04:09:52 You need override *standard-input* 04:10:00 younder: with what? 04:10:01 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:10:28 younder: I don't need to in clozure or sbcl, this works as I would expect. 04:10:38 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:11:45 well swank can interfere (the emacs interface) 04:12:08 younder: not using emacs for this. 04:12:25 But swank is compiled in.. 04:13:14 malsyned: can you try echo -n "'test" | etc..? 04:14:43 S11001001: same result 04:15:40 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.50.31] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:16:09 This is clisp 2.44.1 on Ubuntu 9.04 04:16:31 I see, the same I use 04:16:47 younder: does it work for you? 04:16:53 no 04:18:00 I am a little confused as to what you are trying to accomplish with his. 04:18:33 this 04:19:59 unix utility stuff 04:20:11 younder: I want to pipe the output of some other process into a lisp program run by clisp with something like clisp -q -i my-lisp-code.lisp -x '(my-main-function)' 04:20:13 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-0-199.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:14 malsyned: how about read-preserving-whitespace? 04:20:49 S11001001: same problem. 04:23:17 malsyned: now that works for me 04:24:16 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:26:05 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-9-61.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 04:30:04 -!- antgreen` [n=user@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM0018c0b3c272.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:30:33 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-9-61.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:30:48 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-9-61.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 04:30:48 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:31:13 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:32:30 slowpoke.. have you tried it yet 04:33:05 ? 04:37:49 CMUCL 20A is out. 04:38:49 Finally unicode compiliant with a standard utf-16 encoding 04:39:43 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 04:40:01 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.83] has joined #lisp 04:40:21 happy days 04:41:41 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp190.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:42:10 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-65-62.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:42:51 hah. yeah, I did try it, but I got the same error again. 04:43:04 sorry I had to spend some time explaining what was taking so long. 04:43:26 $ echo -n "test" | clisp -q -x '(read-preserving-whitespace)' 04:43:30 fails same way. 04:45:14 well write a real program. Mine just read input from *standard-input* and spewed it out to *standard-output* 04:45:28 no brainer, but it worked 04:46:17 Just be explicit with the streams 04:48:25 younder: can you pastebin the source just so I can sanity check myself? I'm feeling a little twilight-zoney here. 04:52:48 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:53:22 ASau [n=user@91.77.59.32] has joined #lisp 04:53:57 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 04:54:27 good morning 04:56:05 http://paste.lisp.org/+1VW1 04:57:13 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:57:48 younder: and you have some way of putting that in a file and running it with the output of some other process piped to it? 04:57:50 with clisp? 04:58:27 I missed the element in the prnit bit 04:58:30 print 04:58:39 sorry 05:00:26 OK, younder, that works. Dunno why a similar thing wasn't working for me before. I'll explore it. but thanks for at least getting me out of the rut I was in. 05:00:47 No problem 05:02:29 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 05:03:17 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:05:32 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 05:07:48 hmm, wrapping server applications is messy; i had to implement command-line argument parsing for when it's invoked in batch mode; a repl for interactive debugging; an ascii protocol over sockets for faster same host/lan IPC; a PHP wrapper for the later; a web service interface to be consumed by user pages and AJAX .. what's next? an FFI to be called from C? 05:12:34 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:12:38 -!- malsyned [n=malsyned@24-151-107-209.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:14:49 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:14:49 -!- ASau [n=user@91.77.59.32] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:15:06 ASau [n=user@91.77.59.32] has joined #lisp 05:15:14 hello 05:16:17 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:16:26 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-108-112.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:17:59 fusss: yes :) 05:21:57 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:24:38 meh, do I really need to (push #p"/usr/lib/" cffi:*foreign-library-directories*)? 05:26:11 I did and it doesn't seem to work 05:28:02 CL-USER> (maphash #'(lambda (k v) (format t "~a => ~a~%" k v)) cffi::*foreign-libraries*) 05:28:03 LIBSSL => # 05:28:29 I am trying to load openssl in a vanilla sbcl on a vanilla fedora box 05:33:44 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #lisp 05:34:54 -!- ASau [n=user@91.77.59.32] has quit ["off"] 05:35:40 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-3-74.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:15 pierre_thierry [n=Pierre@88.164.172.1] has joined #lisp 05:45:06 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.177.75.91] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:45:32 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-36.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:50:49 serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06611a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:53 good morning 05:51:03 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-0-95.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:51:03 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 06:01:29 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 06:01:33 Good morning 06:03:09 -!- roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 06:03:45 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:13 [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.82.222] has joined #lisp 06:05:53 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 06:09:51 Gah, mailman day again! 06:11:33 zzf256 [n=user@77.119.59.160] has joined #lisp 06:12:04 plage: scary thought, only 2 more of those left in the year... 06:12:30 Yeah. 06:12:39 decade even... 06:14:05 Maybe this is a sign that one should make major life changes in three months. 06:14:22 -!- huangjs [n=user@192.51.54.129] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:14:28 Like maintaining McCLIM again or writing CLIM3. 06:15:25 that would mean coming back off of the clojure ledge 06:15:45 Not for me. 06:16:50 gaah, what is the CL equivalent of `basename` 06:16:56 I just want the file name, not the whole path 06:17:51 plage: i've spent the day appreciating how nice it is to use other people's libraries (in java in this case) rather than to try to re-roll one's own in lisp... 06:18:01 heresy, i know... 06:18:32 slyrus_: nice .. until something is rotten at the core (heresy, *I* know) 06:18:57 java would be nice if I spent the last few years learning its ins and outs 06:19:32 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:19:38 i just hacked cffi in 30 minutes to fix a problem i was having; how long would it have taken me to fix a problem in JNI, i don't know, but i doubt it would be 30 minutes 06:19:54 what prevents us from translating (the source of) Java libraries to CL? 06:20:27 plage: how many java libraries are *really* needed vs how much of them exist to augment a broken language? 06:21:12 i have been trying to write a hello world app in j2me for the last few days, just to have a mobile app prototype; i still can't figure out which of the myriad SDK, libs and frameworks are the "defacto" 06:21:21 fusss: I don't know. Someone said a few weeks ago that we know have a fair number of useful libraries. 06:21:42 s/know/now/ 06:21:55 <_3b> plage: frequently 3 or 4 for any given use :p 06:22:02 plage: i am running out of time trying to shot boat loads of useful things i have written in CL and more i want to write 06:22:17 <_3b> whether that adds up to 1 useful library or not is the question 06:24:20 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:24:21 fusss_ [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:24:23 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 06:27:43 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:31:23 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:31:27 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 06:31:58 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:03 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has left #lisp 06:33:48 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 06:39:06 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:39:31 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:40:17 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 06:44:41 vy [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has joined #lisp 06:45:27 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 06:45:47 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-206-119-189.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:46:05 Why does «sbcl --no-userinit --no-sysinit --eval "(progn (require 'asdf) (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op 'cffi))"» complains that «package "ASDF" not found» while «sbcl --no-userinit --no-sysinit --eval "(require 'asdf)"» works without a problem? 06:46:09 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:46:40 splittist [n=dmurray@23-99.0-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:46:41 morning 06:46:52 hello splittist 06:47:41 vy: because the form to be evaluated is read first, only then evaluated 06:48:18 vy: so you refer to package asdf before it has been loaded 06:48:41 jdz: Is there any turn around for this via EVAL-WHILE or something? 06:48:50 vy: nope 06:49:01 vy: but i'd try passing 2 separate --eval options 06:49:08 vy: one fore require, one for system loading 06:49:38 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 06:49:54 vy: otherwise find-symbol is your friend 06:49:59 Lol. That does the trick. Thanks. 06:50:16 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:50:40 good morning 06:50:43 hello mvilleneuve 06:52:29 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:52:51 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 06:53:22 -!- proun [n=proun@cpe-74-77-140-113.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["leaving"] 06:55:16 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:03 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-244-138.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:57:17 ASau [n=user@host67-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:04:16 -!- zzf256 [n=user@77.119.59.160] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:07:49 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 07:08:49 Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 07:08:53 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 07:09:13 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 07:12:48 kejsaren 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seems like cl-json and yason are mutually-cannibalant 07:43:34 what do they do? 07:44:27 they transcode json value to CL 07:44:35 -!- sunny36 [n=Adium@203.159.92.21] has left #lisp 07:44:58 for serializing lisp primitives over the wire to be consumed by web apps 07:45:41 OK, thanks. 07:45:57 danlei [n=user@pD954F5AA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:25 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A06DC.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:49:33 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:53:04 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 08:02:40 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@81.174.49.227] has joined #lisp 08:03:06 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@81.174.49.227] has quit [Client Quit] 08:04:12 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.177] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:08:00 sepult` [n=levgue@87.78.101.121] has joined #lisp 08:08:54 -!- untitled1 [n=untitled@150.197-26-211.dynamic.dsl.mel.iprimus.net.au] 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[n=user@82-33-193-10.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:48:38 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@75.36.204.63] has quit [] 10:49:04 how can (format nil "~10,,,,,,'EE" ) be speeded (sped?) up - or is there an alternative way to convert formatted from double to string? 10:50:23 <_3b> might try turning off pretty printing 10:51:17 ok, doing so (testing) 10:51:21 thanks 10:54:04 hm. i did (time (let (*print-pretty*) (dotimes (i 100000) (format nil "~10,,,,,,'EE" 123.456e78)))) and it still takes about 3.5s (no effect here), which is very sloow. 10:55:49 benbos67 [n=ben@124.177.162.112] has joined #lisp 10:56:27 some people use printf through an ffi :) 10:56:52 <_3b> possibly write-to-string or prin1-to-string, princ-to-string 10:58:03 *_3b* isn't sure which if any ofthose can match that exact format) 10:59:39 -!- benbos67 [n=ben@124.177.162.112] has quit [Client Quit] 11:00:18 trebor_dki, are you the trebor_dki that runs maxima? 11:00:49 _3b: i tried using write-to-string and such, but i do not manage to print a double (123.456d78) with the right exponent-char 'E. 11:01:07 you can use decode-float or integer-decode-float and implement it yourself . . . 11:01:13 emmy: what do you mean by "runs"? 11:01:31 well you work on it and stuff 11:01:48 it seems like i have seen your name in association with maxima before 11:02:14 emmy: i use it - and long time ago i wrote an introduction in german ;) 11:02:23 cool 11:04:14 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:06:09 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 11:21:13 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:23:56 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:24:02 Maddas [n=mz@74.125.121.33] has joined #lisp 11:36:52 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 11:37:26 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 11:38:18 _YKY_ [i=YKY@119.237.182.65] has joined #lisp 11:38:36 This is strange. If I enter 123.456e78 on my REPL, it gives an SB-KERNEL:READER-IMPOSSIBLE-NUMBER-ERROR 11:38:40 <_YKY_> How can I get the symbol if I have its name as a char string? 11:39:16 clhs find-symbol 11:39:16 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_s.htm 11:39:22 serichsen: perhaps you want a double float, 123.456d78? 11:39:58 pkhuong: ah, that explains it 11:40:09 ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.30] has joined #lisp 11:41:54 <_YKY_> Thanks.... 11:46:58 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:28 sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:45 what does prin1-to-string really do in sbcl (i read the clhs-chapter)? i mean its awfully fast. it is a pitty that (substitute #\e #\d ...) just eats the time up again. 11:49:28 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 11:49:37 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:51:21 icecube [n=icecube@p549C5203.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:21 clhs *r-d-f-f* 11:51:21 *READ-DEFAULT-FLOAT-FORMAT*: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_rd_def.htm 11:51:26 s/prin1/princ 11:51:33 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has joined #lisp 11:51:49 -!- icecube is now known as Guest63411 11:52:08 -!- emmy [n=em@cpe-98-14-154-71.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:52:54 <_3b> trebor_dki: i think it isn't actually fast, it just gets skipped completely if you don't time it carefully :) 11:52:59 <_YKY_> Can I define a macro that is invoked as "~a" instead of "(~ a)"? 11:54:05 clhs define-symbol-macro 11:54:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_1.htm 11:54:40 trebor_dki: if you don't need the explicit sign at the exponent, you can try (nsubstitute #\E #\d (prin1-to-string 123.456d78)), which seems to run 15% faster than the format 11:55:11 ugh, I'm slow 11:56:01 -!- Addled [n=addled@209.20.68.236] has left #lisp 11:56:18 _3b: i really wonder why: (time (let ((*read-default-float-format* 'double-float)) (dotimes (i 100000) (princ-to-string (expt 10.0d0 (random 100.0d0)))))) is soo fast. does sbcl optimize princ-to-string away? 11:57:30 trebor_dki: yes. 11:57:55 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 11:58:23 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest42263 11:58:29 _YKY_: if you want to call it as: ~a ~b ~42 ~z ~(+ 2 3) then you need a reader macro. 11:58:58 <_YKY_> I see.... 11:59:11 these linux guys never seize to amaze me... gitweb has no config file, instead you need to define some trivially simple variables and then $ make the thing which simply regexp replaces a few templated elements in the gitweb.pl file and emits a gitweb.cgi... 11:59:24 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:00:15 attila_lendvai: you mean "cease". 12:01:12 although if the linux guys suddenly seized up, that would be pretty amazing 12:01:13 matimago: oh, right, thanks! 12:01:25 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:07 -!- Guest63411 is now known as icecube_ 12:07:00 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 12:08:50 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:12:06 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:14:27 i am really surprised. if anyone knows about a really fast method to convert double to string (princ, write, format are tooo sloow), please let me know. here i can convert about 4e4 numbers/sec which needs a speedup-factor of 10 at least. 12:16:14 trebor_dki: what's the end goal? 12:16:47 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:17:25 ziyv [n=ziyv@58.213.37.227] has joined #lisp 12:17:38 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 12:18:50 pkhuong: i need to read a lot of csv-data, work on the data, and write it to csv-files again. all within a time limit of 60s. reading & converting takes 25s, calculating will be max 20s, so if writing would be as fast as reading everything is fine. but as i see now, converting double to string is much slower than reverse. 12:19:34 will anything but your program read the csvs? 12:19:37 What is the bottleneck with whatever you're doing now? 12:20:33 pkhuong: yes, this is a helper function for a collegue. maybe gnuplot has to run on the files. 12:20:40 writing floats accurately turns out to be fairly difficult; there are academic papers around explaining 12:20:53 if you can live with a small loss of accuracy it's usually possible to be much faster 12:20:53 http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=93559 12:21:00 as a classic example 12:21:06 For plotting graphs, I imagine accuracy isn't terribly important 12:21:09 trebor_dki: the main problem with writing floats quickly is that CL implementations work hard to get it right. 12:21:55 pkhuong: though not that hard; there are several optimizations in whichever paper it is (Burger & Dyvbig, or is that reading) that we don't implement 12:22:08 Jafet: at first i thought calculating would be the slow part, but it isn't. i reduced loading times from 69sec (fare-csv) to 25s (self-rolled). 12:22:24 Jafet: now i am at the saving problem. 12:22:44 Burger & Dybvig is printing 12:22:59 Xof: so we don't work hard enough at working less? 12:23:03 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:08 pkhuong: right :-) 12:23:17 ok, so I just can't spell Dybvig 12:23:18 thanks 12:25:09 i ask, because yesterday it turned out, that there was already parse-numbers, which did somehow the same as my own function (p-n being faster) - so this time i would like to use an existing package in first step ;) 12:27:16 how many significant digits do you need? I can imagine something really awful that only looks at the first ~10 bits of the significand to index in a LUT. 12:27:40 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 12:29:19 pkhuong: i think at least 4 (better 5) so > 10 bits will be needed. 12:29:44 If you're plotting graph, take the logarithm of your resolution? 12:29:52 i think that i will try to work around the problem. 12:29:54 Give a couple bits for aliasing 12:30:45 Friends, can you load www.franz.com? 12:30:45 Xach, memo from gigamonkey: I think I fixed the link thing in my blog feed. Look okay now? 12:30:50 i try only to convert new-calculated (modified) data and keep the old string-represenatation in memory 12:31:16 Xach, http://dfeojm.com 12:31:18 http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/franz.com 12:31:22 Oops 12:31:35 I thought they had that URL 12:32:34 Xach: that makes at least 3 for whom franz is down. 12:33:07 Phew. 12:33:36 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-67-162.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:33:37 Jafet: it is not me who does the gnuplotting. i was asked (by my boss) to write a helper function, to replace old tcl-code. 12:34:35 benny [n=benny@i577A081F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:34:55 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:35:09 trebor_dki: even 16 bits would still be reasonable. 12:36:59 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:07 doesn't gnuplot already have a Lisp interface? 12:37:31 If not it should be trivial to write one 12:37:36 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-11-46-203.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:37:56 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-116-82.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 12:38:24 http://www.cliki.net/Common%20Lisp%20and%20gnuplot 12:39:10 google hit it first try 12:39:41 younder: sorry for the misunderstanding. i have to write a helper function for a tcl-application. i only have to read lots of csv data, process it and write result-csv files. everything else "is not my beer" ;) 12:40:43 pkhuong: that sounds good, do you have example-codes to look at? 12:41:37 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441541.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 12:44:21 [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.82.222] has joined #lisp 12:44:26 -!- hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit ["leaving"] 12:45:21 trebor_dki: nope; integer-decode-float will be your friend. 12:45:30 hi folks, i have (a b c) and (h i j), i want to merge them into (a h (b i (c j))). I have this function 12:45:40 http://paste.lisp.org/display/88001 12:45:43 -!- Guest42263 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 12:45:58 however, it puts a NULL at the end. I'd like to somehow avoid that, but I can't really think of an elegant way.. 12:46:39 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 12:46:48 rullie: what should it do on empty lists or lists of unequal length? 12:47:05 rulie: ok it is written as a macro, but is a fuction? 12:47:13 pkhuong: the 2 lists will always be equal length, and at least 1 atom in it 12:47:33 younder: i just like the ` short hand 12:47:52 Just get rid of the backquotes 12:47:56 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-36.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:08 younder: how does that help? 12:48:18 try it' 12:48:38 as in (list () () ()) ? 12:48:55 no, no, 12:49:01 younder: please explain =/ 12:49:02 rullie: make the fact that you don't expect empty lists explicit in your recursion, or return a special value for empty lists (e.g. '() instead of a list containing the return value). 12:50:14 pkhuong: I will do that once I solve this NIL at the end problem. 12:50:33 RULIE: the error messages should give you what you need 12:50:53 younder: i'm rather confused 12:51:01 rullie: no, doing what I suggested will naturally solve that problem. 12:51:49 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 12:51:55 pkhuong: let me try 12:52:13 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:52:25 Your base case is empty lists when your function isn't defined on empty lists. You can either extend your definition to include empty lists as the base case, or have singletons as your base case. 12:52:36 exactly, your return's are off 12:52:38 pkhuong: (list '(1 2 3) '()) gives me a ((1 2 3) NIL) though.. 12:53:09 The way to return nothing in Lisp is (values) 12:53:10 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:53:30 () is still nil 12:53:52 I originally have something like: if length > 1, do the recursive, or else don't 12:54:09 *Xof* learns things from a comp.lang.lisp thread 12:54:10 works, but I have the list construction code twice 12:54:11 That works too, call one level of recurson less 12:54:59 specifically, two interesting points in the &aux thread, from rtoym and Willem Broekema 12:55:32 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 12:55:58 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:56:03 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 12:59:42 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:59:57 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:41 -!- icecube_ [n=icecube@p549C5203.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:01:03 Xof: yes for once the came up with someting interesting 13:03:00 There are a lot of really good 'old timer' lispers there. When they stop their petty bikkering. They can produce valuable insights. 13:06:13 Rob Warnok being my favorite 13:07:34 A retired professor from University of Edinburg. He has cronic fatigue syndro (a virus) but is still a superior Lisp prgrammer 13:09:53 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.30] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:12:20 and yes www.franz.com is down 13:12:45 ejs [n=eugen@95.135.103.35] has joined #lisp 13:13:02 auditing problems.. ? 13:14:33 *younder* has noted that the IRS tends to shut down the web server 13:14:54 really? 13:16:29 It remains to be seen.. 13:17:00 are they in economic trouble? 13:17:55 pkhuong: i just tested in c++ for ( i = 0; i < 10000000; i++ ) { fout << exp( ( (rand() % 1000) - 500.0) / (1.0 + rand() % 100) ) << " ";} takes less than 15sec -> ~7.5e5 floats/doubles per sec (including open/close file) 13:18:09 They seemed the most solid Lisp company last I checked. But they also have the highest expences. 13:18:36 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 13:18:43 younder: what about ITA? I believe there are more lispers at ITA than at Franz. 13:18:55 It's called the "black hole" :-) 13:19:13 bbiam 13:19:30 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [] 13:19:32 matimago: isn't Google the hacker black hole? clever hackers go in and none come out? 13:19:43 lol 13:19:54 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 13:19:59 Well it caught me.. 13:21:08 http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2491 13:21:18 for those unaware of ITA 13:21:46 ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.30] has joined #lisp 13:24:25 younder: I'd be surprised if Lispworks isn't doing better, at least on sales of compilers/development tools 13:24:43 Franz really does have the strangest, most outdated business model... 13:25:03 *c|mell* had no end of trouble with their compiler 13:25:04 http://www.lispworks.com/ 13:25:08 for those unaware of LispWorks 13:25:19 They should do like apple, have chinese build lisp machines and give their allegro cl for free with each lisp machine sold! :-) 13:25:20 c|mell: lispworks or franz? 13:25:28 LispWorks is a small company of 6 emplyees. Franz has 60+ 13:25:30 *Adlai* is competing for the Anti-Turing 13:25:38 sbcl is much more correct than franz's allegro, produces much better code and so on and so forth 13:25:52 Can't determine the exact number 13:25:57 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:26:06 -!- enn [n=eli@codeanddata.com] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:26:06 -!- Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:26:07 SBCL is developed by many freelancrs. 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13:26:27 -!- araujo [n=moz@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:26:28 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:26:28 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:26:28 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-235-032.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:26:28 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:26:28 -!- antifuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:26:28 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:26:28 snafuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:29 c|mell: are you sure? Have you run them against a validation suite? 13:26:29 -!- snafuchs is now known as antifuchs 13:26:29 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:26:36 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:26:36 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-235-032.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:41 wtf was that 13:27:05 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 13:27:06 adlis anti Turing ? ;) 13:27:17 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 13:27:17 [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.82.222] has joined #lisp 13:27:17 benny [n=benny@i577A081F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:27:17 ziyv [n=ziyv@58.213.37.227] has joined #lisp 13:27:17 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:17 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 13:27:17 _YKY_ [i=YKY@119.237.182.65] has joined #lisp 13:27:17 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 13:27:17 Maddas [n=mz@74.125.121.33] has 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[i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:27:31 oh, dear, freenode exploded again 13:27:31 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 13:27:31 ah, freenode unexploded again :) 13:27:32 matimago, no but i wrote this http://john.freml.in/bugs-in-common-lisp 13:27:33 welcome back I guess 13:27:36 heqi [i=hq200512@58.55.106.60] has joined #lisp 13:28:31 "SBCL had a problem with slot-value not working" - huh? Not working in what way? 13:28:37 -!- heqi [i=hq200512@58.55.106.60] has left #lisp 13:28:38 freenode HAS had some growing problem.. Still does apperently 13:29:09 These net splits are a symptom 13:29:14 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:29:18 you must not have seen the wallop 13:29:27 ? 13:29:30 rsynnott, check their changelog 13:29:53 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.30] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:29:56 matimago, for a good example of a horrible allegro bug see this http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/cffi-devel/2009-September/003261.html 13:30:01 there was a memory leak in the ircd software, so they're staggering restarts of the servers younder 13:30:01 freenode needs more "lisp, forth, haskell... and loop" 13:30:14 (quoth gavino) 13:31:08 OMG Adlai: It is you.. 13:31:14 ska` [n=user@124.157.196.89] has joined #lisp 13:31:16 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #lisp 13:31:18 I thought gavino didn't like loop :) 13:31:19 quoting Gavino 13:32:11 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:32:13 That's like a catholic priest quoting the Gothic scripts 13:32:17 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.214.115] has joined #lisp 13:32:40 (which I would like to see) 13:33:33 ace4016: Thanks for the info 13:33:33 rsynnott: he mentioned the programming languages which he's trying to learn. Apparently, LOOP is one of these. 13:33:46 I was just kidding 13:34:18 oh... :D 13:34:48 ah, I assumed that meant lisp's rather controversial loop thing :) 13:35:13 hmm, anybody got a good use case for slot unions? e.g., (defclass base () ((%foo ...)) (defclass derived (base) ((%foo ...))) 13:35:43 rsynnott: I'm pretty sure that's what gavino was referring to... 13:35:45 (I could swear I used this once on purpose, but can't find it now.) 13:36:42 -!- sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 13:37:11 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:37:43 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@23-99.0-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:38:15 "17:29:11 I have issues, I start to learn, forth, lisp , and haskell...get frustrated..and loop" 13:38:26 phf [n=user@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 13:38:31 -!- phf [n=user@host.icnfull.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:38:51 he's either lather-rinse-repeating, or trying to learn loop itself. 13:39:00 Adlai: the former, i'm sure. 13:39:14 Xach: from what I've heard, sounds like that, unfortunately... 13:39:16 Adlai: he has been attempting for years 13:39:55 phf [n=user@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 13:39:58 that's a bit sad, really. 13:40:25 So what did you think of my attempt at a web bot? 13:41:11 Indistinsheable from the ususal anyoing me. 13:41:39 younder: can -you- tell yourselves apart? 13:41:57 lol 13:42:52 This baesian statistics s powerfull stuf. I based it in ALICE. which won the Turing award in 2003. 13:43:12 <[Jackal]> Sorry for being a little off-topic, but what's the case with Franz? I've been out of the loop lately. 13:43:37 [Jackal]: their website is not responsive. other than that, i don't know what else is the case. 13:44:44 <[Jackal]> Xach: I just checked after younder mentioned it. I hope it's just maintenance downtime. 13:45:51 sounds likely to me 13:45:55 I might have mentioned finacial problems. 13:46:23 I should add his is just a guess on my part. 13:46:25 <[Jackal]> younder: Which is what terrorized my whiskers. 13:47:23 [Jackal]: it's difficult to distinguish what younder writes online from what a drunk or mentally ill person would write 13:47:29 [Jackal]: I've found it's best ignored. 13:47:34 Yes, Franz going down would affect the whole Lisp industry. 13:47:59 Xach: thanks.. 13:49:21 I still note that why you are still writing booring lisp intefraces to C programs I am doing cutting edge AI. 13:49:28 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-227.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:49:52 *michaelw* grabs popcorn 13:50:07 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 13:50:24 My barin might be non-linear and beyound your comprehention. That is another subject. 13:50:29 brain 13:50:57 Adrinael_ [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has joined #lisp 13:51:38 *Xof* giggles 13:51:45 minion: give me popcorn, please. 13:51:46 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``popcorn''. 13:52:12 "cutting-edge AI" is like "pretty ugly" 13:52:41 I'm reminded of a phrase that pg used in one of his essays -- "cutting-edge accounting" 13:53:17 Anything practical is ugly. 13:54:33 michaelw: I use slot untions sometimes to add in new accessors or change the initarg to suit the derived context 13:55:09 free_thinker: right, adding a new accessor was what I did, too. 13:55:48 i sometimes use just a new (:default-initarg ...) instead of recapping the slot 13:57:00 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 13:57:21 -!- no_mind [n=orion@122.163.223.100] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:57:36 -!- andelf [n=andelf@119.118.225.230] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:58:05 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:59:05 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:59:46 pkhuong: ping? 14:03:08 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:03:31 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 14:07:19 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 14:09:38 -!- appletizer [n=user@82-33-193-10.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [] 14:10:03 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:49 ... I wonder what sins did I commit to have Swing in Algorithmic Problem Solving Course 14:12:28 c|mell: that multi-columns thing when changing font sizes is nice 14:12:32 Swing? the C headr compiler lib 14:12:45 younder: that's SWIG 14:12:47 you're thinking about SWIG. 14:12:52 Swing is a Java GUI lib 14:12:53 Swing's Java. 14:12:55 Meh! 14:12:58 I hate it, but is at a problem? 14:13:19 aerique, thanks (note that the css is written in a dsl via a lisp) 14:13:43 younder: hate is always a problem. 14:13:47 one that doesn't work on my laptop because it ass-u-mes certain things breaking X11 compatibility 14:13:59 -!- jlf [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:14:02 ok, I am not aware of a Swig Java library. 14:14:27 younder: SWING, not SWIG. Note the "n". This is like "swing" in "swing set" 14:14:42 Adlai: yes,yes 14:15:58 It's a very popular library for designing GUIs. I think that pretty much anybody who has had to build an app in Java has at least heard of it. 14:16:17 -!- free_thinker [n=willijar@134.151.144.246] has left #lisp 14:16:26 Perhaps, I don't use Java 14:16:36 yaw, the whole channel is talking to invisible people 14:16:36 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 14:16:44 sorry I fucked up 14:16:53 *p_l* thinks it would be easier to add Lisp to his Database course (thank you gigamonkey!) than to this one... 14:17:00 *Adlai* talks to invisible people "for fun and profit" 14:17:43 Adlai: ahh, my favorite book 14:17:52 Swing makes importing c headers really easy 14:18:02 SWIG does, not Swing. 14:18:33 if you like that sort of thing 14:18:45 Oh I like all sorts of things 14:19:31 "cracking the stack of fun fun and profit..." you know Adlai your hacker past is sining through 14:19:44 I saw that in PHRANK 14:19:46 smashing the stack. 14:19:51 true 14:20:00 How is this related to Lisp, though? 14:20:31 whoa ccl is so much faster at compiling than sbcl 14:20:34 shining 14:20:44 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-36.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:20:48 ccl is a fate compiler 14:20:51 fast 14:20:57 TR2N [i=email@89-180-192-63.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 14:21:06 it's easier to be fast if you don't try to generate that fast, fast code! 14:21:16 It den't however produce as good code 14:21:16 what about XCL? 14:21:58 milanj [n=milan@93.87.181.248] has joined #lisp 14:22:16 It does paralell compuation better though. 14:22:29 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-218-233.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:02 The best compile is still from franz. 14:23:31 But LW is catching up fast. 14:24:00 SBCL is good for numerics, but lousy at classes. 14:24:37 CCL is for me a unkown quantity 14:24:49 I need further study 14:24:51 younder: do you have some papers about this performances indications ? 14:24:57 s/this/these sorry 14:25:01 ccl seems fast enough for my purposes. It has a cool code coverage feature too 14:25:17 dysinger [n=dysinger@75-94-4-238.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:31 -!- ziyv [n=ziyv@58.213.37.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:25:35 I'd be interested about more concrete informations 14:25:39 galdor: no, I don't 14:25:46 p8m: sbcl has a code coverage library. 14:25:50 it is called "sb-cover" 14:26:26 ok, so informations like "sbcl is lousy at classes" are just... personnal judgements 14:26:39 ao it does, written by Snellman 14:27:00 It is te weakest form though 14:27:07 a line oriented one 14:27:35 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:27:40 For full strenght you need a loop analizer to go throug all variations 14:28:59 weirdo [n=sthalik@85.221.142.5] has joined #lisp 14:28:59 you know (if (and 1 2) it only checks 1 14:29:01 younder, you are full of bullshit; in my experience sbcl *always* beats allegro, *especially* in my mop benchmark 14:29:19 http://cl-www.msi.co.jp/projects/manardb/index.html 14:29:51 c|mell: You are wrng it beat's it numerically, not with classes 14:29:55 secondly, looking at the disassemblies, it's clear that sbcl is way ahead (using cmov etc.) 14:29:57 younder: don't sweat it, but I'll go with /ignore for you 14:30:05 whatever 14:30:10 lukego [n=lukegorr@84-72-45-92.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:31:14 belive what you will but SBCL does not produce the fastest code 14:31:16 mcspiff [n=user@142.177.75.91] has joined #lisp 14:31:18 younder, it would be nice if you supported your argument with some evidence 14:31:25 and thatb is thr truth 14:31:40 c|mell: later 14:31:55 c|mell: Itisn't that important to e 14:32:00 me 14:32:24 ... 14:32:29 this younder isn't gone already? 14:32:36 i ran a benchmark comparing the disassemblies of all major lisps while i was at msi: allegro,lispworks,sbcl,clozure 14:32:44 I think I will shut up now 14:33:05 i think that mr abe might be going to publish a better report about it sometime maybe 14:33:19 ... can't even shut up without announcing it ... 14:33:40 I just run programs. I Don't do benchmarks. 14:34:04 That is my expereience. Take it or leave it. 14:34:06 basically sbcl (i suppose also cmucl) are way ahead, next is lispworks, then allegro, then clozurecl (though this was for one small example and gary byers fixed it up) 14:35:10 on the other hand, franz hasn't had a big release for a while and one might assume (even without special knowledge) that they will be improving their compiler soon 14:35:14 Xach: nice, didn't know about sb-cover 14:36:31 ccl also has a precise garbage collector, even on x86 14:36:33 c|mell: were those your disasemblies presented at ECLM? 14:37:45 i think that mr kuroda did more with mr abe on it 14:38:00 i left before the eclm 14:39:42 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:40:00 c|mell: You are dislusional 14:40:04 udzinari [n=user@195.212.29.179] has joined #lisp 14:40:24 c|mell: The perfomance test don't come outat all like that 14:40:37 c|mell: haven't they announced that they will be? They were going on about proper multithreading a while back, no? (franz) 14:41:17 rsynnott, well we were a franz partner and i am sworn to secrecy :) 14:41:20 c|mell: It DOES depend on how HARD you optimize it 14:41:44 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 14:41:48 hello 14:42:10 c|mell: You get more for nothing in SBCL as it has a better type inference 14:43:14 blackwolf [n=blackwol@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:36 SBCL does generate better code without exhaustive type declarations 14:45:47 exactly 14:45:50 but note that the franz compiler does not inline user functions at all 14:46:10 and does not support CMOV, for example 14:46:24 nor does it open-code ldb etc., etc. 14:47:02 but ACL supports SSE3 and SBCL doesn't 14:47:28 rsynnott: c|mell may be sworn to secrecy, but Franz has announced that ACL 9.0 will have SMP support. 14:48:00 rsynnott: they had some mailing about things you might want to do to your code to get ready for this. 14:48:22 okay, well if they announced it :) they were also boasting about a more modern compiler with support for inlining for example 14:48:23 No secret, LW 6 and ACL 9 14:48:42 rpg, the latest allegro 8 will warn you if you are using deprecated interfaces 14:50:04 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:50:28 younder, at the risk of continuing to talk to you, what do you mean by "supporting" sse3? 14:51:01 You figure out what SSE3 is 14:51:26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSE3 14:51:55 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [] 14:52:29 It is SIMD.. Ok 14:53:05 seeing as i was actually using sse instructions to do 2 x double floats/insn with franz's allegro, i rather suspect that i know more about it than you . . . 14:53:09 wastly faster for array's of operation for a functio of the same function 14:53:18 younder: afaik SSE3 didn't introduce much more instructions, the ones that I recall the most were monitor-family which don't have *anything* to do with SIMD 14:53:41 SSE1,2 and 4 did more of actual vector processing 14:53:59 true 14:54:02 and in case of SSE4.1, XML processing -_-; 14:54:15 roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 14:54:38 I prefer CUDA 14:54:43 afk 14:55:05 Way better than CSS 14:55:32 up to 10 000 contigous points 14:55:32 p_l: with supplemental SSE3 you get packed absolute values, that's always good to have :) 14:55:56 c|mell: That reminds, me, I should UPDATE-ALLEGRO... 14:56:02 Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A66457.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:36 *mcspiff* wishes he wasn't a poor student... #lisp with their fancy allegro and lispworks. Someday... 14:56:38 That's what I have been using lately. 14:57:02 The Cell proc is a lot of fun too. With careful pipelining you can get insane throughput 14:57:18 And why I don't particulary care. 14:57:23 mcspiff: I think there is a student edition of allegro... 14:58:13 -!- ska` [n=user@124.157.196.89] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:58:17 christel [Global Notice] Hi all, unfortunately one of our former developers has left behind a memory leak in our ircd software which means we'll need to restart several ircds over the next few days. We're going to stagger it to reduce disruption, and the first round will be happening very shortly. Affected users for now will be about 1300. Apologies for the inconvenience! 14:58:45 CUDA suuucks. I can get more flops per watt than you can :) 14:58:48 p8m: there is. It's about $100, or 20 drinks ;-) I haven't hit any serious limitations in sbcl so I haven't found an excuse to drop the cash on it 14:59:27 /msg christel Psst, use erlang 14:59:28 I get my machines from thes boy's http://www.cray.com/Home.aspx 15:00:42 *Xach* holds his head in hands as his careful plan to ignore annoying things is defeated by people pointlessly replying to those things 15:01:05 a CX1 is a good tool 15:01:15 <_3b> does it run lisp? 15:01:34 It run's windws, or linux so yes 15:01:59 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:50 hi.. sorry for another noob question: http://paste.lisp.org/display/88009 <-- this tells me :div is not a defined function, if someone could shine some light 15:03:37 <_3b> with-html-output probably doesn't expand the blog-id macro before checking for :div 15:03:46 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.77.217] has joined #lisp 15:04:00 jethro-o- tull 15:04:08 rullie: the evaluation rules for with-html-output are not normal lisp evaluation rules. 15:04:11 younder, can you please sayign nonsense? 15:04:18 ok 15:04:19 please /stop/ saying nonsense. 15:04:26 rullie: it's a little like writing (defclass foo () (my-slot-macro)) 15:04:38 Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:41 the evaluation rules of defclass do not allow for that to work like you might expect. 15:05:07 <_3b> it wouldn't work if it did have normal evaluation rules either though :) 15:05:11 rullie: also, you can just use with-html-output-to-string! 15:05:13 Just responding to Xach' nonsence 15:06:04 -!- Maddas [n=mz@74.125.121.33] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:06:17 hmm, so you're saying with-html-output evaluates its body first? 15:06:17 I repeat: Xach holds his head in hands as his careful plan to ignore annoying things is defeated by people pointlessly replying to those things 15:06:17 17:01 younder a CX1 is a good tool 15:07:08 basically, I have a dao function that loads some db entries and formats them into sexp 15:07:14 It pissed me off as Xach always does 15:07:23 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has left #lisp 15:07:27 that looks like (blog-id id (blah..)) 15:07:46 my goal is to write these blog-id macro and blah macros so that the data can format itself 15:08:02 am i doing it wrong =/ 15:08:15 <_3b> rullie: it operates on the forms passed to it as its body, they are not evaluated until it returns teh results of those modifications 15:08:21 not looking at the example, but when that complaint ("not a function") comes from w-h-o, you usually have to put it into a htm form 15:08:35 My CX1 is my pride and joy. 15:08:48 <_3b> rullie: so it sees the (blog-id ...) form, not the (:div ...) you would get from evaluating the blog-id form 15:08:56 <_3b> younder: it is also off-topic 15:08:57 thank you younder, now SRV's playing in my head 15:09:06 _3b: would eval-when help? 15:09:19 rullie, can't you use a function instead? http://paste.lisp.org/display/88009#1 15:09:32 yes I am off topic, pissed and dangerous 15:09:35 rullie: the evaluation rules for with-html-output are described precisely in the documentation. 15:09:43 <_3b> rullie: probably not, you need to adjust your code to fit w-h-o 15:10:04 rullie: I've never had much luck puzzling it out with guesses, I always have to refer back to the manual. 15:10:28 <_3b> rullie: either write a function that works in the context of w-h-o, or add to the set of forms w-h-o recognizes 15:10:39 (uh, or perhaps that was totally wrong .. i just came in the door :}) 15:10:41 *_3b* never had much luck figuring it out from the docs either :) 15:11:03 lnostdal: that looks like something i want 15:11:15 <_3b> i can tell why what i want to do doesn't work, just not what the intended way to do that sort of thing is 15:11:32 Xach: that is a very polite way to expand a four letter acronym ;) 15:12:05 -!- ASau [n=user@host67-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 15:12:11 mcdonji [n=mcdonji@70.75.0.48] has joined #lisp 15:13:29 hey do you answer math questions? 15:13:45 -!- Adrinael_ is now known as Adrinael 15:13:46 #math doesn't either, but you should ask there anyway 15:13:47 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:14:06 how do i negate if x y? not if x y = if not x y? 15:14:45 besides, i noticed that iff x y = not xor x y, is that true? 15:15:34 oh, ask *there* 15:15:36 Xach: i can't seem to find the transformation rule 15:15:43 so i'll ask on #math, sorry 15:15:51 Xach: is it under the syntax section? 15:16:21 *younder* goes somewhere to 'cool' down 15:16:53 rullie: yes. "Syntax and Semantics" 15:16:53 weirdo: do you mean in propositional logic, or in a program? if x y == (or (not x) y)) so (not (if x y)) == (not (or (not x) y)) == (and x (not y)) 15:17:03 rullie, i think it's wrong, heh .. using a function call and (str ..) at the call site works though 15:17:11 rpg, i mean math, not CL:IF 15:17:14 rullie: the bulleted list explains how it works. 15:17:17 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:17:27 there's an 'if' and 'iff' operator 15:17:31 weirdo: that's what I gave you. But by "math" I assume you mean "propositional logic" 15:17:36 'if' looks like '=>' while iff looks like '<=>' 15:17:43 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 15:17:55 weirdo: if x y == (or (not x) y) 15:19:02 the syntaxc is insane 15:19:47 rpg, iff is either not xor x y or (or (and (not x) (not y)) (and x y)), right? 15:19:48 (if x (y...) 15:21:16 == is Python 15:21:18 weirdo: (iff x y) is x = y where = here is "has same truth value. 15:21:26 *rpg* can't balance quotes 15:21:32 Xach _3b: so... basically when with-html-output goes to its body to expand stuff, (blog-id ..) hasn't been expanded? 15:21:36 rpg, thank you :) 15:21:52 In my stuff above I used == as "is equivalent to," since Latex doesn't work over IRC! 15:21:59 rullie: you'll have to read the rules, i can never remember :) 15:22:22 rpg, ERC has balancing parens and quotation marks :) 15:22:27 *weirdo* goes back to the studies 15:22:27 you wouldn't 15:22:38 alright, thanks guys 15:23:30 *younder* gives a right spin kick. a love tap from all of us 15:25:00 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:27:20 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.177.75.91] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:27:24 mcspiff [n=user@142.177.75.91] has joined #lisp 15:28:07 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:31:34 rotfl 15:31:44 rullie: http://lisp-univ-etc.blogspot.com/2009/03/cl-who-macros.html 15:31:49 In sbcl, is it correct to interpret "An mprotect call failed with ENOMEM. This probably means that the maximum amount of separate memory mappings was exceeded. . . ." as being out of memory? That is to say, does running out of "separate memory mappings" mean something different than having too much stuff in memory? 15:32:19 sounds insane 15:32:56 Use the Linux do on ENOMEM 15:33:13 you probably have a recusrive well 15:33:35 (Ubuntu linux, sbcl 1.0.29) there is a suggestion to up the count in /proc/sys/vm/max_map_count. 15:33:39 s/do/doc/ 15:33:47 wgl, i'm probably smoking crash but maybe TLB/MMU stuff ran out 15:33:49 not just actual memory 15:33:52 younder: No, I don't have a recursive well 15:33:56 s/crash/crack 15:34:08 it means exactly what the messages says 15:34:19 the kernel won't let you have more than X amount of Y 15:34:34 weirdo: (defun equiv (a b) (eq (not a) (not b))) (defun imply (p q) (or (not p) q)) 15:34:52 the solution to that is to tell the kernel that processes should have access to more Y 15:34:54 matimago, :) 15:34:57 (equiv (not (imply p q)) (not (or (not p) q))) 15:34:57 Thats a uglyfuck 15:35:08 or tell sbcl to use fewer Y 15:35:12 (equiv (not (or (not p) q)) (and (not (not p)) (not q))) 15:35:25 (equiv (not (or (not p) q)) (and p (not q))) 15:35:25 fertej [n=fernando@132.Red-79-151-57.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:29 so it is 15:35:45 and .. 15:35:54 jsnell: I am trying to understand if this is any different from just grabbing to much memory. 15:36:00 younder: not helpful. 15:36:06 udzinari: thank you for that url :) 15:36:07 younder: well, otherwise you'd use <=> and => but => is too close to <= to be sane. So you could use ==> but I prefer not and or imply and equiv. 15:36:21 ahh 15:36:35 matimago, bo to do EQUIV, one has to do binary permutations of P and Q? 15:36:52 rullie: thank google :) 15:37:17 weirdo: we're not working with variables, but with boolean values. 15:37:17 sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:32 matimago, variables of type boolean 15:37:57 wgl, i think sbcl tends to map a new memory space with mmap everytime it does a full(?) gc, and when you get too many such mappings, the kernel won't let it map any more. you can increase the limit, or use clozurecl, which doesn't do this (the only lisp not to?) 15:38:00 weirdo: you can wrap it into permutations: (dolist (p '(nil t)) (dolist (q '(nil t)) (assert (or (equiv p q) (imply p q) (imply q p))))) 15:38:03 attila_lendvai: you seem to have updated local-time. Have you pulled all upstream dependencies? 15:38:36 weirdo: or you can call up a theorem prover (prove '(or (equiv p q) (imply p q) (imply q p))) 15:38:47 -!- fertej [n=fernando@132.Red-79-151-57.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 15:39:08 wgl: only in a very loose sense (each unit of Y corresponds to at least 16k of memory) 15:40:00 c|mell: that's not really the issue. the kernel is happy to merge adjacent mmap'ed regions together 15:40:19 matimago, at least these are binary permutations 15:40:20 the issue is that sbcl wants to have different mprotect flags for some of those pages 15:40:31 matimago, i.e. it doesn't involve factorial :) 15:40:31 preventing the kernel from merging them 15:40:36 but when i get to sets it's going to be... worse 15:40:50 Our boy is ruuning out of memery without using swap.. What is causing that? 15:41:05 I am confused.. 15:41:26 younder: no one said he was running out of memory 15:41:54 He said he got a ENOMEM 15:42:29 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 15:42:48 jsnell, thanks for your clarification 15:42:52 -!- Xach has set mode -bbb *!*@201.160.239.17.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx *!*@host50.190-224-62.telecom.net.ar *!*n=g@*.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com 15:42:58 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*n=jpthing@*.14.202.84.customer.cdi.no 15:42:59 sbcl gave some more info than that, pointing to the real problem 15:43:20 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [No route to host] 15:43:25 hmm 15:43:30 -!- Xach has set mode -b *!*n=jpthing@*.14.202.84.customer.cdi.no 15:43:40 enlighten us 15:43:47 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*jpthing@*.customer.cdi.no 15:43:59 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 15:44:15 younder: read up? 15:44:18 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:42 jsnell: the trick for me is that this is a long-running process that had been running for over 12 hours. It is consing moderately small objects, so I need to decide whether or not the process is simply requiring too much memory or too many objects. If it is too much memory in total, might need more hardware, but if it is too many objects, then my approach would be to increase max_map_count and try the long run agai 15:45:42 n. 15:45:44 dl [n=user@c-76-113-113-75.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:56 -!- younder [n=jpthing@113.14.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 15:47:00 more hardware certainly won't help, this has nothing to do with physical memory 15:48:15 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 15:48:21 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:49:28 jsnell: Ok, so more of the lots of small pieces problem. I will try the suggestion that sbcl is making with regard to setting max_map_count. 15:50:46 heh younder tried to finish our convo after Xach shut him up. In the ignore file he goes. 15:50:50 kami-: what upstream dependencies do you mean? i've updated wui in sync... 15:51:10 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-218-233.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:51:11 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 15:51:33 Now I get to look forward to a personal attack from him on comp.lang.lisp. 15:51:45 *Xach* will be sure to follow up with [personal attack deleted] 15:52:28 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:52:34 never a null moment in lispland 15:53:18 disumu [n=disumu@p54BCE1D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:26 *c|mell* finds younder tends to melt his brain :) 15:55:00 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:16 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:56:31 -!- dl [n=user@c-76-113-113-75.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:57:13 -!- jlf` [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:58:59 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:59:12 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:59:21 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:22 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:05:27 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host126.190-227-41.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:06:20 -!- sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 16:06:48 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@pc212-189-140-32.unile.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:09:21 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 16:18:35 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:18:59 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:19:52 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:20:39 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:16 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A081F.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:22:02 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:22:17 benny [n=benny@i577A081F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:22:18 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:23:20 Is it common practice to provide a print-object method for your classes that outputs a "#.(make-instance ...)"? 16:25:47 tsuru` [n=user@c-76-22-154-126.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:39 -!- maskd [n=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:26:39 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:26:39 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-98-245-87-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:26:39 -!- kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.net] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:26:39 -!- rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:26:39 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-154-251.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:26:39 -!- gmlk [n=gmlk@alicia.demon.nl] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:26:39 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:26:39 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:26:39 -!- rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:26:39 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:26:39 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:26:39 -!- s0ber [i=pie@114-45-226-57.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:26:39 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-76-22-154-126.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:26:39 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-45.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:26:39 -!- dmelani [n=dmelani@c83-253-52-86.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:26:39 -!- Vonunov [i=jack@anapnea.net] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:26:39 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:26:39 -!- v0|d [n=user@213.232.33.243] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:26:39 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:26:39 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.130.237] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:26:58 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:27:26 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-57-96.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:27:36 clhs make-load-form 16:27:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ld_.htm 16:28:00 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:02 jcowan: I -think- you're looking for that, maybe? 16:28:28 jcowan: You should probably do that only when print-readably is non-NIL, otherwise you should probably print it in a way that's readable for humans. 16:28:34 clhs print-readably 16:28:35 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for print-readably. 16:28:42 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 16:28:46 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.130.237] has joined #lisp 16:28:50 Vonunov [i=jack@anapnea.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:51 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 16:29:05 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-98-245-87-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:07 dmelani [n=dmelani@c83-253-52-86.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:29:29 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 16:29:29 ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-154-251.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:30 clhs *print-readably* 16:29:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_rda.htm 16:29:31 s0ber [n=s0ber@114-45-226-57.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:32 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:32 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 16:29:47 rey_ [n=ikke@134.184.49.19] has joined #lisp 16:29:48 make-load-form covers a different area from print-object 16:30:25 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:43 lisppaste: url? 16:30:44 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 16:30:52 mcspiff: /topic 16:31:46 Make-load-form is clearly relevant; thanks. Print-readably doesn't make things readable if they weren't before, it seems. 16:31:50 Adlai: ? 16:32:38 Adlai: o, didn't even see it there 16:32:43 wait, why is make-load-form relevant? 16:33:02 make-load-form is what is used to customize the serialization of literal objects into fasl files 16:33:22 Xof: btw, CMUCL 20a is out. The topic could use updating... 16:33:30 gmlk [n=gmlk@alicia.demon.nl] has joined #lisp 16:33:47 kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.com] has joined #lisp 16:33:52 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 16:33:58 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xof 16:33:59 mcspiff pasted "iterate" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88017 16:34:00 -!- Xof has set mode -t 16:34:04 jcowan: what are you trying to use this for? I'm not sure it's a good idea to actually call make-load-form yourself 16:34:17 A source of ideas. 16:34:23 Not a practical problem. 16:34:27 could someone more familiar with iterate take a look at that paste? I have no idea what the issue is 16:34:29 -!- Xof has set mode -o Xof 16:34:40 -!- Adlai changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: CMUCL 20a, ABCL 0.16.0, SBCL 1.0.31, Osicat 0.6.0, CFFI 0.10.5, trivial-features 0.5, Hunchentoot & Drakma 1.0.0, usocket 0.4.1, yason-0.1, series 2.2.10. 16:35:56 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 16:36:16 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-1-248.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:06 sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 16:37:36 this might be a weird-ass question but here goes; is there a way of "annotate" or enforce type checks in CL? 16:38:00 clhs check-type 16:38:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_check_.htm 16:38:44 and I can create my types and it still works? 16:39:30 sayyestolife: yes, it will expand your DEFTYPEd types 16:40:01 and will work for classes and structs 16:40:06 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:40:45 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 16:40:52 thanks 16:40:58 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-45.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:50 lispm [n=joswig@e177121138.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:43:57 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-9-61.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:44:24 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32E265.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:49 -!- _YKY_ [i=YKY@119.237.182.65] has left #lisp 16:45:51 spilman [n=spilman@90.59.68.9] has joined #lisp 16:45:55 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-0-199.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:47:58 -!- mcdonji [n=mcdonji@70.75.0.48] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:51:10 d'oh, I assumed things like (summing i) would also have their code generated in place with (next i)...they don't. This seems wrong to me, but fair enough 16:51:58 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-3-74.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:51:58 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 16:52:00 seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:25 Actually, can someone with more iterate expierence explain why that isn't a bug? 16:53:06 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:53:09 Xach: after a lunch i thought of an quiet obvious way to work around with-html-ouput problem: http://paste.lisp.org/display/88020 16:53:52 mcspiff: btw, if you're a student, check if your uni doesn't have allegro somewhere - I know mine has, except I still haven't managed to access the machine it's installed on :D 16:54:03 (Allegro/SPARC on Solaris) 16:54:22 jsnell: Thanks for your explanation. I increased the seg count to 200k or so. 16:54:26 p_l: oo smart, I bet it is kicking around somewhere 16:56:20 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 16:57:18 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:57:27 mcspiff: my only problem is finding a classroom that is on the same VLAN :> 16:57:31 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:58:17 said server is on departamental VLAN and isn't routable outside 16:58:29 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has left #lisp 17:02:10 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:16 ska` [n=user@124.157.196.89] has joined #lisp 17:02:31 did anyone do rational numbers in hardware? 17:02:36 because ieee floats suck 17:02:47 (= 1/3 (float 1/3)) 17:02:57 reprore [n=reprore@116.82.73.92] has joined #lisp 17:03:24 people do decimal numbers in hardware. don't think anyone does rationals. 17:03:40 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:04:04 fpga? 17:04:12 yeah, POWER6 afaik does decimal, but afaik it doesn't qualify as replacement of floatingpoint. 17:04:18 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:05:08 Also, IEEE-754 isn't bad - it gives you a standard set of rules for fast floating point calculations, instead of wondering what exactly your cpu is doing ;-) 17:05:11 The next versions of C and C++ will have decimal number support in the language. 17:05:15 x86 has bcd instructions :) 17:05:36 c|mell: afaik even 6502 had 17:06:03 c|mell: also, wasn't bcd the main functionality of x86's direct ancestor? :D 17:06:25 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:06:45 I believe that decimal floating point is newly standardized in IEEE 754. 17:08:35 nice 17:08:56 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:09:22 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 17:09:38 *p_l* recalls that for some reason, Atari 800/65/128 had BCD, 8/16bit integer and floating point functionality... 17:09:49 hi worlds 17:10:10 p_l, but didn't symbolics do bignums etc in hardware? 17:10:28 ieee floats are soo inferior and soo faster than rationals 17:10:28 :( 17:10:34 weirdo: symbolics afaik had mixture of microcode and special hardware features for that :) 17:11:02 ieee floats are so crappy that = x x isn't always true 17:11:20 hi. How do I force SBCL to typecheck calls to make-instance? 17:12:54 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 17:13:19 weirdo: what's a better float 17:13:29 rullie, rationals 17:14:41 weirdo: float's main feature seems to be performance :-) 17:14:42 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:14:42 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p54BCE1D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:14:48 and it does that quite nice 17:14:54 -!- [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.82.222] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:15:05 p_l, because it's implemented in hardware 17:15:05 ASau [n=user@91.77.59.32] has joined #lisp 17:15:13 i don't see why floats need a base (10) 17:15:22 though it would be nice if at least *one* of my courses explained how and why exactly you have to use floats 17:15:44 -!- HET3 is now known as HET2 17:15:48 Fare: safety 3 17:15:58 -!- ASau [n=user@91.77.59.32] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:16:13 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:17:44 can you selectively change optimization parameters inside a function/method/etc. ? Like having a function declared with safety 3, then in a part of code have safety 0 ? 17:18:01 clhs locally 17:18:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_locall.htm 17:18:24 ...right. I even seen that one once ^^; 17:18:24 but you can't declare some stuff as free declarations 17:18:29 types, can, but not everything 17:19:21 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-lxnhdqlkdfutmhtk] has joined #lisp 17:19:38 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:20:12 stassats, I thought so. Does that mean that my code is NOT already compiling with safety 3 as I believed??? 17:20:18 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:21:04 Fare: defclass should be compiled with safety 3, and it doesn't do type-checking at compile-time 17:21:40 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:23:58 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:24:40 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-240-45.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 17:26:05 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:26:43 ASau [n=user@91.77.59.32] has joined #lisp 17:26:48 ASau` [n=user@91.77.59.32] has joined #lisp 17:27:01 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:03 -!- ASau` [n=user@91.77.59.32] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:27:25 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:27:45 minion: memo for gigamonkey: (herep c@w) => T !!! 17:27:45 Remembered. I'll tell gigamonkey when he/she/it next speaks. 17:27:50 -!- ASau [n=user@91.77.59.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:28:17 -!- mle [n=emily@kuu.accela.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:28:17 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:28:29 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:06 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:30:11 mle [n=emily@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:18 -!- ska` [n=user@124.157.196.89] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:31:19 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 17:31:33 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:31:41 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-211-227.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 17:31:56 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:34:08 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:34:31 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:36:14 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:36:40 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:38:16 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:40:45 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88.149.211.151] has joined #lisp 17:40:47 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:41:44 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 17:42:22 hello 17:42:23 -!- jikanter [n=jordan@24.148.12.119] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:46:57 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:47:26 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:48:28 tagac [n=user@87.223.62.131] has joined #lisp 17:48:54 skeptomai [n=cb@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:33 udzinari` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:50:55 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 17:52:08 jikanter [n=jordan@24-148-12-119.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 17:52:08 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:52:35 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:52:44 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:30 -!- udzinari` [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:54:16 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit ["leaving"] 17:54:23 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:48 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:54:55 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32E265.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:15 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:55:57 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:55:58 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@74.71.11.230] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:57:05 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:21 -!- udzinari is now known as Guest53971 17:59:08 Does clbuild offer a way to delete old fasls, as you need when you put in a new version of sbcl? 17:59:18 -!- sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 17:59:54 does it use asdf-binary-locations? 17:59:56 LiamH: use asdf-binary-locations and old fasls won't be a problem any more 18:00:05 LiamH: or a recent enough version of asdf 18:01:26 fe[nl]ix: I thought one of the advantages of clbuild was everything was recent... I installed it last night, but I needed Debian's sbcl (1.0.25) to start so that it could build the new sbcl (1.0.31.something). I had already built cl-ppcre under '25, but it gave me an error when I tried to reload it. 18:02:24 LiamH: a-b-l was merged into asdf only a few weeks ago 18:02:50 *LiamH* doesn't know anything about a-b-l, googles 18:04:43 Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-74-243.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:05:03 *c|mell* 's suffered enough with random asdf changes confusing the many versions of asdf installed along with different lisps 18:05:12 OK, so after I install a-b-l, it will automatically kill off old fasls when I upgrade sbcl? or just make a new dir name for them? 18:05:36 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-67-162.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:05:55 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.77.217] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:06:32 make a new dir separate from the sources 18:06:33 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:06:40 nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:06:47 which you can periodically GC 18:06:57 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:09:02 fe[nl]ix: will do, thanks for the tips 18:09:07 i always rolled my own thing similar to a-b-l in my .sbclrc, ,clinit.cl, etc., as the lisp version string chosen for the a-b-l directory didn't use to be strongly enough versioned 18:10:27 c|mell: but it is versioned better now? 18:10:51 no idea :) 18:11:19 I guess I'll find out. 18:11:25 do we have a spec bot here? 18:12:02 nyquist: like specbot ? 18:12:06 spec cons 18:12:11 cmell pasted "my clc-init.lisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88026 18:12:21 clhs imagpart 18:12:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_realpa.htm 18:12:29 great :) 18:12:47 i used this nonsense on lispworks, allegro, sbcl, and ccl 18:13:22 it's quite horrible but it let me use both the 32bit and 64bit versions simultaneously for example 18:13:28 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.177.75.91] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:13:41 c|mell: interesting, thanks... I'm moving on from c-l-c now that debian has been depleted of cl packages 18:14:02 c|mell: does your profile-package do something other than sb-profile's built-in package profiling feature? 18:14:35 Xach, argh i was sure there was a way of doing it but i couldn't remember it 18:14:48 what is the proper way? 18:15:04 iirc (sb-profile:profile "FOO") profiles all functions in (find-package "FOO") 18:15:50 so says the docstring 18:16:27 so say we all 18:17:06 *c|mell* vaguely remembers using it but must have got confused and pointlessly tagged it along at the bottom of that file 18:17:06 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:17:25 thanks Xach 18:19:24 (intern "Hi") gives |Hi|, what if I want HI 18:19:27 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:37 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:19:55 then (intern "HI") 18:20:54 c|mell: is (remove-if 'not ...) different from (remove-if-not ...)? 18:21:41 (remove-if 'not seq) == (remove nil seq) 18:22:00 not sure which one is best practice? 18:23:42 c|mell: you have (remove-if 'not (mapcar 'find-package names)). i can't at first glance see the difference between that and (remove-if-not 'find-package names) 18:24:29 Xach: it won't return list of packages 18:25:35 stassats: ah, thanks. 18:26:20 stassats is correct as always, but all that code awful rough junk that i wouldn't want to foist on anybody 18:27:07 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:27:40 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@75-94-4-238.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:27:47 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:29:09 Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-241-22.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:13 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:29:20 LiamH: also, "clbuild clean" 18:29:26 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:29:34 Is there a legitimate use of an integral argument for MAKE-HASH-TABLE's :REHASH-SIZE parameter? 18:30:03 clhs make-hash-table 18:30:03 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_has.htm 18:30:49 Riastradh: I suppose there are some weird use cases where that'd be desirable 18:30:52 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:26 say if you know you're going to have N entries or N+5 entries 18:31:41 An integral argument means that the amount by which the hash table will be increased is a constant, not a multiple of the hash table's size before rehashing. That means that the amortized running time of insertion is linearly proportional to the number of associations in the hash table, not constant. 18:33:07 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 18:35:11 maybe some hashtable abusers would rather spend the time and save the memory? I'd imagine people would switch data structures before making that kind of brittle optimization 18:36:57 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:38:29 Goodness! CCL's implementation of TRACE uses a global hash table of traced (and broken, and otherwise encapsulated) definitions constructed by (MAKE-HASH-TABLE :REHASH-SIZE 2 ...). Increase it by two slots each time? Weird. 18:39:33 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:40:19 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 18:40:54 I suppose it doesn't matter much how fast a call to TRACE runs. 18:41:37 fnpod [n=irchon@116.71.186.164] has joined #lisp 18:42:49 well i on allegro i sometimes suffered from hash-tables growing much larger than they should; perhaps because the rehashing gets triggered before the table was actually anywhere near full? no idea, i never got to the bottom of it 18:42:50 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:43:11 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:43:25 but it doesn't seem too unreasonable to have an increase not proportional to the current size of the table . . . 18:43:27 Do they shrink? 18:44:58 There are incremental hash table algorithms that can rehash incrementally 18:45:34 ...meh, redundant sentence is redundant 18:45:39 c|mell, constant amortized time for insertion is one of the main useful properties of hash tables. Increasing the size of the table by a constant when expanding it breaks that property. If you want the hash table to expand only a little bit, use a small float for its rehash size: then it will be a small multiple of the former size of the table. 18:46:07 -!- Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A66457.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:47:16 Riastradh, if you force the hash-table to be rehashed after every insert, for example, that might give better balanced buckets 18:47:36 so if you cared not about insert but only about lookup, then i don't think it's unreasonable 18:48:00 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 18:48:13 (of course you should probably be using something else other than a general purpose hashtable, etc.) 18:48:13 -!- Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:48:43 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-68-145.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:48:54 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:48:59 No, that's still not reasonable. You need to supply a good hash function; the size of the table doesn't help (except in that, for collision bucket hash tables, it ought to be somewhat larger than the number of associations in the hash table; and except that prime number sizes help some hash functions). 18:49:04 killerstorm2 [n=alex_miz@sputnik.donapex.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:24 actually you're right, i was just figuring that out 18:50:56 Hi. I'm trying new Emacs instead of my old trusty XEmacs, and one thing which is definitely not right is indentation. 18:50:56 A constant addend for the size of the hash table doesn't reduce lookup time either. Only a good hash function reduces lookup time by reducing collisions: lookup time is proportional to the number of collisions for the hash of the key in question; with no collisions, a constant. 18:51:08 on Xemacs I set it up with this line: (setq lisp-indent-function 'common-lisp-indent-function) 18:51:22 Do you I need something else on Emacs or what? 18:51:53 *p_l* ponders if he can do CPS in Java to make "frames" like in LoL 18:52:31 killerstorm2: that is what i use in emacs 18:54:40 p_l: iirc call/cc for Java was implemented by some company, probably in proprietaty product. There is continuation-based web framework for Java, called Cocoon. Normally it uses JavaScript (implementation with call/cc), but there is a version for plain Java as well. 18:55:00 -!- fnpod [n=irchon@116.71.186.164] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:55:45 killerstorm2: hmmm, might be interesting 18:57:22 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:57:48 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:58:41 Of course you can write code in CPS in Java, p_l. A more salient question is whether you actually want to, to which the answer is almost certainly not, by hand, anyway. 18:59:14 Riastradh: yeah, I suspect that 18:59:48 SimonH [n=simonh@84.13.123.164] has joined #lisp 18:59:51 it's just that I'm going to be expected to make "Undo" functionality into an app as part of "Case Studies" in "Algorithmic Problem Solving". I start to suspect some bad karma 18:59:59 chris2 [n=chris@p5B169FD7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:59:59 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:00:23 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:06:00 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 19:07:02 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:07:32 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:08:30 Riastradh: could you add to paredit a command that works like up-list but also escapes from strings ? 19:11:32 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 19:13:23 Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:43 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:18:09 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:18:33 emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-11-230.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:18:44 -!- ejs [n=eugen@95.135.103.35] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:19:26 How do i get the function definition out of a #? 19:20:01 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 19:20:01 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:20:09 ah, inspect->%function slot... nevermind. 19:20:33 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:21:06 eh.. if i have an exported function say (a), which has a form (eval b) where b is an unexported macro, and if c were to call a, it'd fail since b is not exported?? 19:21:19 emacs-dwim: method-generic-function 19:21:28 rullie: exporting has to do with symbols only. 19:22:03 rullie: further guidance is available with closer-to-real code 19:22:24 Xach: let me post the thing 19:23:37 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:47 rullie: and don't use eval, b is probably b regardless of where you call a is it was likely interned in the same package as a, and i can't come up with a good reason for EVAL'ing a macro.... what are you actually trying to do? 19:24:06 *Xach* waits for the code 19:24:13 *drewc* waits as well. 19:24:16 ska` [n=user@124.157.196.89] has joined #lisp 19:24:30 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 19:24:30 ....or lets Xach wait and reads c.l.l instead. 19:24:54 Xach: library: http://paste.lisp.org/display/88033 consumer: http://paste.lisp.org/display/88034 19:25:29 calling parse-blog in dataparser works fine, but not in dispatcher 19:26:13 rullie: hmm, i'm afraid i don't have the energy to comment in detail. there are a number of serious concerns. 19:26:50 Xach: :( 19:27:00 use functions, not macros .. don't use eval 19:27:24 rullie: it's better to use with-output-to-string instead of a global shared string stream. 19:27:31 lnostdal: it's more of a learning experience than anything else 19:27:33 the global will break when you have two requests 19:27:39 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:27:43 rullie: lesson 1: use functions, not macros :) 19:27:49 rullie: if it's a learning experience, learn the better way to do it 19:27:55 what's wrong with macros 19:28:11 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:28:29 nothing, but if you use macros where a function would work, you complicate your code needlessly 19:28:51 macros can't be traced, applied, funcalled, passed to other functions, etc 19:28:52 rullie: a macro forces people to do a double-take, because it might (like defclass, for example) have special evaluation rules 19:29:22 nyquist` [n=user@85.71.221.19] has joined #lisp 19:29:28 rullie: similar to how you ran into problems with cl-who's with-html-output macro earlier 19:29:30 I'm exercising the idea of having the data parse itself in this little project of mine 19:29:50 *Xach* definitely doesn't have the energy to fight 19:29:55 rullie: my suggestion is to do that with more functions and fewer macros 19:30:03 I'll keep your lesson 1 in mind though :) 19:30:41 whoah boy. 19:30:42 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 19:30:45 lesson 2. don't use eval 19:30:54 ok, so what's wrong with eval 19:30:59 it's evil 19:31:02 -!- alvinator [n=alvinato@121.1.55.58] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:31:12 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-84-210.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 19:31:21 hmm 19:31:25 rullie: for one thing, it's crippled and only uses the null lexical environment 19:31:51 (let ((a 5)) (eval 'a)) => ERROR: A is unbound 19:32:17 also, all the code you're writing is, at some point, getting evaluated 19:32:26 ok 19:32:33 don't use macros when the're not needed, don't use eval unless you really know what you are doing, don't use global resources when local resources will do, and DEFPARAMETER'ing internal symbols in someone elses package is probably the wrong thing to do as well. 19:32:44 it might get compiled, macroexpanded, analyzed, and optimized, but it gets evaluated eventually 19:33:13 ok 19:33:24 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:25 it's thus a bit kludgy to be calling EVAL from within EVAL 19:33:36 i shall refactor 19:33:39 Lispster [n=jared@99-23-192-153.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:47 but besides those, why isn't parse-blog working dispatcher 19:33:55 whoppix [n=whoppix@p4FDF6C0E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:01 rullie: what book are you using to learn CL? 19:34:08 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:34:08 drewc: gigamonkey's 19:34:25 speaking of books, I'd just like to gloat that my copy of C@W just arrived 19:34:38 I have resigned to zero productivity until I've finished reading it at least once. 19:34:47 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 19:35:26 rullie: i highly doubt gigamonkey taught you to write code like this! 19:35:43 drewc: i'm exercising macro... 19:36:01 rullie: macros especially don't need to call eval 19:36:18 rullie: you don't seem to understand what a macro is, so i suggest you read that chapter again. 19:36:29 a macro-function is a function which gets as input a form, and returns another form which gets passed to EVAL 19:36:47 that all happens behind the scenes, for the most part 19:36:48 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:36:55 Adlai: i probably threw eval in in desperation while fighting with with-html-output 19:37:01 i can't really recall why it's there anymore 19:37:13 hrm... i haven't checked my mail in a while. maybe my c@w is here too! 19:37:32 *Xach* got his and quickly opened it to the acknowledgements page to impress his wife 19:37:35 rullie: maybe ditch CL-WHO until you fully grok macros and the evaluation model 19:37:36 fe[nl]ix, sure, that's easy enough. But would you also want commands that work like down-list and backward-down-list, which enter strings? 19:38:01 Adlai: that's a good idea actually. 19:38:04 Adlai: yes, perhaps having an external library in this wasn't a great idea 19:38:23 rullie: especially one which defines its own evaluation rules 19:38:24 Riastradh: and backward-up-list too, possibly :) 19:38:31 rullie: rather than using cl-who, there is an html library in PCL that you create yourself as a practical... 19:38:55 rullie: doing so might help you to understand the evalution model.. can't hurt. 19:39:04 drewc: i will look into that 19:39:13 it's the last two chapters 19:39:17 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:39:25 (you can probably tell from the ToC...) 19:40:45 by the way, I think people have commented on this already... but don't Brad Fitzpatrick's comments about what he'd like in a language cry out for a good dothe of Lithp? 19:41:01 a good what? 19:41:18 who? 19:41:27 dose of lisp :) 19:41:57 2009: 50 years of lisp 19:42:08 2010: 50 years of weak lisp jokes :( 19:42:22 hey, we can use th 19:42:25 nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-161-71-17.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:30 Hello all. 19:42:33 gah! sorry about that half message 19:42:48 we can use Microsoft's "Embrace and Extinguish" against weak lisp jokes. 19:43:04 Or against candle flames. 19:43:22 I'm just waiting until somebody embraces and extinguishes Microsoft itself. 19:43:47 Arc is a weak lisp joke, puns on 'lisp' are just, well, too obvious to be weak, too boring to be a joke. 19:43:55 fe[nl]ix, that's a little trickier. I'll consider it later this evening. For now, you'll have to content yourself with (lightly tested). 19:43:56 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:44:26 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:44:30 fe[nl]ix, or, you could write it yourself, and send it to me. 19:44:54 -!- nyquist [n=user@19.221.broadband4.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:45:03 fe[nl]ix, by the way, #paredit is a better place for such requests, and email is even better than that. 19:46:18 ok 19:46:37 Excuse me: I lightly tested the file, but not the URI I just gave you! The real one is . 19:46:48 And now, I must vanish. 19:46:52 St0rmMolest [n=St0rmMol@c83-251-39-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:46:52 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-241-22.bos.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 19:47:40 Adlai: so if I have a symbol that contains a form, what is the proper way to run it 19:47:40 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:48:47 rullie: sometimes the solution is "don't get yourself into that situation" 19:48:54 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 19:49:30 if that form happens to be a function call, then APPLY is your friend. 19:49:53 otherwise, you're probably 'doing it wrong' :) 19:49:55 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 19:50:13 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:50:14 -!- Puppster [n=jared@99-23-192-153.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:50:21 rullie: well, what's the context? 19:50:26 mcspiff [n=user@142.177.75.91] has joined #lisp 19:50:42 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:50:48 (also, the terminology 'symbol contains a form' is not quite right) 19:51:07 drewc: symbol => '(some-macro) is 'wrong' ? 19:51:17 is it a variable pointing to some form you'd like included in a macroexpansion? you probably want to use backquote syntax 19:51:41 rullie: where have you constructed the form, and made the binding? 19:51:46 Adlai: such as `(,my-symbol) ? 19:51:54 and yes, that terminology is a bit wrong -- what you probably have is a lexical binding 19:52:06 yes, i meant point to, not contain 19:52:38 Xach: i'm getting myself into it so i will know how to avoid them later 19:52:39 pastebins come in really handy at this point. 19:52:45 Xach: or that's the plan :p 19:52:56 they're collaborative debugging tools! 19:53:05 Trying to single-step with sldb: macroexpanded in place, inserte (break), but now `s' skips past everything. How do i make it step one form at a time? 19:53:36 Adlai: a sec 19:54:02 mejja [n=user@85.229.182.73] has joined #lisp 19:54:58 Adlai: http://paste.lisp.org/display/88036 <- get-result-in-sexp is where i go from query to the form 19:55:22 niko22 [n=fr33fall@193-233-dsl.kielnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:50 -!- niko22 [n=fr33fall@193-233-dsl.kielnet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:56:53 i guess the pipeline is db-result => sexp => (some-macro) => html 19:56:54 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:57:06 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:57:07 i'll refactor the (some-macro) to (some-defun) later 19:57:09 rullie: i don't think that's a good idea. 19:57:27 Xach: please englighten 19:57:47 rullie, http://paste.lisp.org/display/88033#1 19:57:50 rullie: there are many options to turn data into the database into HTML pages that don't involve turning them into lisp code that you evaluate at runtime. 19:58:19 sorry, "data in the database" 19:58:20 i don't see why you need macros etc. for this; even if you choose to use streams to build things up 19:59:10 Xach: i'm completely oblivious to those ways, URls would be much appreciated 19:59:16 lnostdal: yeah, that's indeed much cleaner 19:59:32 lnostdal: i was playing with macros, i guess in a wrong context 19:59:43 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 19:59:55 rullie: you can retrieve data from the database, have some layer for turning the text data into Lisp objects, and then have another layer for producing the HTML, none of which need to be macros 20:00:18 I'm very much trying to avoid objects 20:00:24 if i do (defun foo () 1) and some time later (let ((prev #'foo)) (defun foo () (values 2 (funcall prev)))) should i get new value of foo or old value of foo in 'prev'? 20:00:39 rullie: Too bad. By definition, everything in Lisp is an object. 20:00:58 rullie: the term "Lisp objects" gets used a lot to just describe stuff, data, etc, that Lisp shuffles about. Usually people specify CLOS when they're talking about OO objects 20:00:58 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:01:00 rullie, yeah, it is almost too easy to mix all the "times" in lisp .. it is confusing for a while 20:01:02 Tordek [n=tordek@host126.190-227-41.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 20:01:12 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:01:28 phf: that example gets the old value of foo in prev. 20:01:43 Adlai: oh, i thought you meant clos objects 20:01:54 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9pnu2/should_i_use_common_lisp_or_scheme/c0dufs3 <-- this is the best comment ever 20:02:17 rullie: it's not exactly an url thing. imagine you had a blog post of "Foo" in VAR. What you're doing is the equivalent of generating `(print ,var) and evaluating it instead of just plain doing (print var). It gets more elaborate, but that's the gist. 20:02:24 morn|eri [n=mornfall@ip-89-103-110-62.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 20:02:26 rullie: "Object" is just a general term for Lisp data -- conses are objects, symbols are objects, etc. "CLOS Object" or standard-object is an OO object. 20:02:37 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:02:48 Adlai: ah, well, there's a bug in sbcl then 20:03:33 Xach: i thought that's what I am doing, generating forms based on data 20:03:36 phf: there are probably many. However, don't be so quick to assume you've caught one. 20:03:43 rullie: right. and i don't think that's a good idea. 20:03:50 Adlai: disagree .. all objects are also CLOS objects, otherwise CLASS-OF doesn't work :) 20:04:14 Xach: what would be a proper way? 20:04:16 Adlai: not STANDARD-OBJECTS, i'll give you that :) 20:04:21 drewc: well, at least we're not like Ruby, where everything is an object, with a vengeance. 20:04:24 rullie: just plain (print var) 20:04:33 Xach: oh ok 20:05:07 now, "proper" is all relative. drewc goes to nutty lengths, for example, to generate code from databases. 20:05:13 Xach: Didn't you have a nice blog post about compiling sexp based DSL using closures? a similiar techinque to whats done in cl-ppcre but more of a toy example. Seems like something like that could be appropriate here. Or does rullie not even need something that complex 20:05:22 rullie: remember, (print var) actually translates somewhere deep inside your implementation to (eval '(print var) ), so you don't need to do that yourself 20:05:42 Adlai: ok 20:05:43 mcspiff: i think that's a bit of overkill 20:05:47 rullie: have you looked at chapter 9 of PCL? 20:05:47 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:05:56 Adlai: i typically don't jump to that kind of conclusions 20:06:04 Adlai: the unit test thing? 20:06:08 mcspiff: http://xach.livejournal.com/131456.html is the article 20:06:14 I think it's a great example of macros at work 20:06:19 Xach: i no longer do that actually... it's ill-advised IMO :) 20:06:19 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:06:21 rullie: yes, the test framework. 20:06:33 drewc: oh, ok. what do you do now? 20:06:37 Adlai: in fact i started this little lab project after reading that chapter :p 20:06:41 froydnj` [n=froydnj@38.113.113.105] has joined #lisp 20:06:43 Adlai: i guess context is very wrong 20:06:44 Xach: ah, I jumped in late to the convo. I'll go back to lurking ;-) 20:06:50 drewc: scratch that. can't process it even if you explained... 20:07:07 Xach: short answer: "manually". 20:07:14 -!- froydnj` [n=froydnj@38.113.113.105] has left #lisp 20:07:15 phf pasted "sbcl issue" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88037 20:07:58 slightly longer answer: i generate simple base classes from the db schema, and inherit those and add relationships where i see fit. 20:07:58 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:08:15 rullie: try building some simple system without defining any macros, just using functions. You'll probably soon see some patterns in your code, and then you should go back and look at how to define macros for them. 20:08:26 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:08:29 drewc: that's what i am trying to avoid 20:08:33 phf: that's undefined behaviour 20:08:45 Adlai: i shall 20:09:15 rullie: what are you trying to avoid? 20:09:31 phf: please, no (defun foo() ...), this isn't C. 20:09:42 nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has joined #lisp 20:09:49 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:09:55 drewc: OODB 20:10:06 ASau [n=user@91.77.59.32] has joined #lisp 20:10:38 rullie: why not just get a list of data from the database then iterate across it printing values? 20:10:43 Adlai: are you nitpicking now, after being condescending and incorrect? i do python programming during day time, it was a slip. 20:10:45 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-93-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 20:11:09 bobbysmith007: that would work, but it would just work and i wouldn't be here bugging you guys for wisdom 20:11:23 rullie: why? have a lot of time on your hands? 20:11:33 rullie: this is the wisdom, KISS 20:11:34 phf: why the hostility? I was half-joking. 20:11:59 drewc: at the moment, i'd say so 20:12:14 rullie: fair enough :) 20:12:15 rullie: also, you can define methods that dispatch on an exact symbol,and you can then apply that method to a list of values 20:12:42 so then you would just be (iter (for d in data) (apply #'data-transform d)) 20:12:42 also, phf, I hope you realize that undefined behavior means it's not an SBCL bug. 20:13:24 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 20:13:54 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [No route to host] 20:14:13 (iter (with var)(...some clauses...)(finally (return var))) Any reason sbcl would be telling me that return is unreachable? 20:14:32 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 20:15:00 bobbysmith007: if you don't mind me polluting the room with my ignorance: that is indeed my original plan since this is a fairly common way. but I figured such large scale transformation would be very page specific. and If i had data transformation on a smaller scale, i would be able to reuse alot of them 20:15:09 Adlai: i was referring to your first answer. 20:15:40 why would that be undefined behavior? 20:15:42 phf: I just said that prev gets bound to the first function definition. Nothing more. 20:15:44 bobbysmith007: so instead of transformating a set of data into a specific format, my thought was to use some lisp magic to transform individual data type to a desired output format 20:15:53 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:55 Adlai: well, that is not the case. 20:16:12 no? 20:16:25 the defun messes stuff up -after- prev gets bound. 20:16:37 -!- ASau [n=user@91.77.59.32] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:16:38 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.127] has joined #lisp 20:16:51 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:16:54 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:18:55 rullie: I dont see what you are trying to do that is different from what lnostdal pasted a bit ago / isnt the desired output format "a specific format" 20:19:15 bobbysmith007: yeah, lnostdal has a much nicer version 20:19:20 as expected.. 20:19:46 rullie: alternatively what intermediate form do you want that is different than either a list of data from the database or the output html that would generate. What would be the point of that intermediate format 20:20:00 if thats actually what you are looking for 20:20:11 bobbysmith007: it models after db -> xml -> html 20:20:43 but if what your db call returns is a sexp of lisp types, then whats isnt that the 'xml' in your above example? 20:21:00 bobbysmith007: it indeed is 20:21:20 Adlai: so you gave a useless answer. i suspect that you gave an incorrect answer, but now simply stand your ground for the internet debate's sake. 20:21:45 rullie: or are you trying to do a sort of transform that is db->xml->xslt->xml->html. (or was the question resolved and I missed that) 20:21:53 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:34 phf: you made your point. you can now stop 20:22:48 phf: are you just upset because you didn't get the answer you wanted? Feel free to look elsewhere for better answers. 20:22:54 bobbysmith007: my original question had something to do with why a macro wasn't being recognized in another package. but it turned into a bit of critizing on my pasted code, which was very insightful 20:23:39 rullie: have you looked at some commonly-used macros? 20:23:40 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:23:54 Adlai: as in their definition? 20:23:59 ASau [n=user@91.77.59.32] has joined #lisp 20:24:35 rullie: i've sometimes seen the analogy of "my original question was how i could get a chainsaw to cut down all the trees in my path, but it turned into a bit of directions back to the road" 20:24:37 well, some of the macros in the spec are pretty fundamental (ie, deffoo and the condition system), but there are many great examples in libraries. 20:25:39 Xach: i believe a certain amount of tree cutting is necessary during learning stage 20:26:09 brapse [n=brapse@modemcable180.220-21-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:26:44 trying to cut trees with adhesives will not get you far though ... 20:27:17 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:27:19 drewc: unless the adhesive travels at high enough velocity in apriopriate form 20:27:34 -!- spilman [n=spilman@90.59.68.9] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:27:43 p_l: true enough 20:28:33 Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has joined #lisp 20:28:40 rullie: Anaphoric macros are pretty neat. Some people don't like them, but I think that they're good examples of simple syntactic abstractions 20:28:42 -!- ASau [n=user@91.77.59.32] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:28:44 minion: anaphora for rullie 20:28:46 rullie: please look at anaphora: Anaphora is the anaphoric macro collection from Hell; it includes many new fiends in addition to old friends like AIF and AWHEN. http://www.cliki.net/anaphora 20:29:11 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:29:22 *drewc* hates anaphors but doesn't mind if-bind and when-bind 20:29:35 rullie: also checkout out what clsql:with-database is doing, as that is a common form for macros to take (with-resource macros) 20:29:37 It's trivial to say that Anaphora is from Hell, as all anaphoric macros are from Hell to begin with. 20:29:59 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-122-238.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:30:00 ok 20:30:00 those are also fine, and do avoid the very obvious problem with too much anaphora. 20:30:27 thanks folks 20:30:51 jcowan: is that CL:HELL, MY:HELL, YOUR:HELL (<--- why i don't like anaphors and 'it') 20:30:56 my least favorite one was the anaphoric date macro that introduced 7 or 9 or 11 implicit variables 20:31:22 Gak. 20:31:29 *shudder* 20:31:35 Xach: yuck. I draw the line at IT. 20:31:36 If The Name's Not In The Input, It Shouldn't Be In The Output Either. 20:31:40 jcowan: some time ago you mentioned that the implementation-defined default use list for packages would include cl. that's not actually the case; sbcl's default use list is empty. 20:31:47 (and use foo-bind a fair amount, too) 20:31:50 Okay, thanks. 20:31:53 Is there any good reason to use SETQ outside of the implementation of SETF (leaving aside the advisablity of using SETQ in the implementation of SETF for the time being)? 20:32:22 Habit. 20:32:27 hmm would setq not expand symbol-macros? 20:32:28 to /really/ show it's a symbol? 20:32:35 Adlai: setq expands symbol macros. 20:32:39 nyef: i've used it in macro expansions so that i will get an error if var is not a symbol 20:32:43 Adlai: No, SETQ on a symbol-macro expands to SETF. 20:32:44 alright, so I can't think of a good reason :) 20:33:15 And habit is not sufficient as a reason, as it's a habit that quickly would be broken if SETQ went away. 20:33:15 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:33:21 this anaphora thing is sure well documented 20:33:45 Okay, so there's -one- use-case thus far... 20:33:55 ASau [n=user@91.77.59.32] has joined #lisp 20:33:56 rullie: there's a whole book full of similar crap that you should never use! :) 20:34:20 (And, at that, it's a shortcut for a real assertion and proper error message.) 20:34:21 hell, two books even (counting let-over-lambda) 20:34:25 on lisp? 20:34:27 nyef: frankly, I think of setq as on par with rplaca and rplacd -- stuff which should be left for macroexpansions 20:34:35 stassats: that's the one yeah :) 20:34:39 -!- killerstorm2 [n=alex_miz@sputnik.donapex.net] has left #lisp 20:35:03 drewc: On Lisp isn't -all- bad, it just happens to have loads of gratuitous utilities 20:35:11 Adlai: Take it one step further: The only macro which should expand to them is SETF. 20:35:29 nyef: well, I'm allowing for use cases like the one that drewc mentioned. 20:35:32 (Or, well, anything else using the SETF-machinery.) 20:35:56 although you could also argue that in that case you should check-type... 20:36:14 indeed, i probably should have... 20:36:26 I find drewc's use-case to be slightly underwhelming, as it essentially passes the buck on a semantic error to where it becomes syntactic, providing a less-useful diagnostic. 20:36:35 so if we're anti-anaphoric what *is* the better way to write (let ((foo x)) (when x .. )) ? 20:36:51 oh when-let isn't anaphoric is it. nevermind. please continue. :) 20:36:53 lukego: When-let? 20:36:54 lukego: they'd have us -always- use when-bind 20:36:54 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:37:03 (call-if x (lambda (foo) ...))? 20:37:23 +1 jsnell! 20:37:24 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 20:37:24 -!- ASau [n=user@91.77.59.32] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:37:25 jsnell is a schemer in sheep's clothing. 20:37:39 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:37:47 -!- sepult [n=levgue@87.78.101.121] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:38:41 not guilty! I don't think I've ever written (or even wanted to use) call-if 20:39:17 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:40:04 FWIW, i think the (let ((x ...)) (when (x) ...)) is more readable then the other options, and i read code a lot more than i write it. 20:40:27 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954F5AA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:40:33 drewc: you don't think when-bind & co are pretty clear? 20:40:35 (when-bind (x ...) ...) is much better. drewc report for head examination :) 20:40:51 *Xach* wrote a WHEREAS in his first-ever project, but hasn't used it since 20:41:13 Adlai: clear enough, in that i can mentally translate them to the macroexpanded form, sure. 20:41:31 No, I'm with drewc on this one. I'll typically use separate LET and WHEN. 20:42:00 *stassats* is too lazy to add everywhere when-let or whatever 20:42:27 *lukego* just read Tim Bray saying how important syntax like {} and ++ and ; were to Java's success, to make C hackers comfortable. made me remember how extremely negatively all my C hacker friends _actually_ reacted to Java for the first several years :) "interpreted" etc 20:42:48 -!- Dawgmatix [n=user@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:42:50 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:43:14 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.127] has quit ["Leaving..."] 20:43:24 I'll also argue that there aren't enough additional concepts within the abstraction for when-let to be cost-effective in terms of maintainance. 20:43:27 meh, IA32 is also interpreted by the translator on modern CPUs. :) 20:43:55 nyef: that is exactly what i was trying to formulate, but much more concise. 20:44:04 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:44:06 mbishop_ [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #lisp 20:45:12 *lukego* always aims for as few lines/tokens as possible. not always the right idea but on average not a bad strategy 20:45:31 less lines is often good 20:45:34 *Adlai* backs down, but won't remove the AWHENs from his source until you pry them from his cold, dead, fingers. 20:45:59 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.177.75.91] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:46:36 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:46:56 "... although she didn't so much pry it from his cold, dead fingers as scoop it up out of his ashes..." 20:47:29 *drewc* doesn't program in lines and tokens, but rather concepts and abstractions :P 20:47:46 drewc: exactly, which is why we have anaphoric abstractions! 20:47:51 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has left #lisp 20:48:09 -!- SimonH [n=simonh@84.13.123.164] has left #lisp 20:48:10 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:48:17 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 20:48:26 -!- St0rmMolest [n=St0rmMol@c83-251-39-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:48:28 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:48:46 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:49:48 danlei [n=user@pD954F5AA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:17 good night 20:50:45 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06611a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["()Oo."] 20:51:42 Adlai: i don't think that follows... the level of abstraction and concepts i was refering to is far above 'it combines an when and a let!' and more related to the problem my program is trying to solve. 20:53:10 [calls me a liar] 20:53:11 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:53:16 (or : when and let don't slow me down, reading AIF or WHEN-LET does (because i don't use them), and as nyef said, the when and the let are likely to move around/change at some point) 20:53:22 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:53:34 Xach: lol + coughing fit.... 20:53:58 that was the best thing i've read all day :) 20:54:14 younder? 20:54:36 true, I just think it's a nicer building block 20:54:37 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 20:54:39 anyways. 20:54:54 -!- ska` [n=user@124.157.196.89] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:54:56 yeah, agree to disagree. 20:55:11 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:55:16 And to strip it out if we ever wind up maintaining your code... 20:55:35 oh hells yes 20:56:02 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:56:16 Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 20:56:46 marioxcc [n=user@200.56.150.166] has joined #lisp 20:58:22 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:58:23 disumu [n=disumu@p54BCBA82.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:33 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:59:42 -!- phf [n=user@host.icnfull.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:01:55 -!- mejja [n=user@85.229.182.73] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"] 21:02:05 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:02:19 *Adlai* curses his foolishness in loading ERC hacks from an inexperienced lisper 21:02:53 Adlai: I've done the same...but the hacks were my own ;) 21:03:13 seangrove: oh, I have an ERC hack which works really well most of the time but when it misbehaves, it's awful 21:03:14 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:03:18 Ah, the joys of being an inexperiences lisper... :D 21:03:30 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:06:49 -!- Guest80218 is now known as pragma_ 21:07:11 -!- nyquist` [n=user@85.71.221.19] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:08:35 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:09:39 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:11:14 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-75-71.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:11:42 -!- tagac [n=user@87.223.62.131] has left #lisp 21:11:55 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:13:13 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:15:30 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:16:40 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:17:06 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:17:07 male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:21 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-168-237-198.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:32 levy [n=levy@89.223.183.131] has joined #lisp 21:18:47 good evening 21:19:27 Evening. 21:19:45 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.83] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:20:18 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@p4FDF6C0E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:22:18 bah, darcs saves random backup files with a name that is a prefix of the original in the same directory 21:22:28 that make easy to delete the original accidentally 21:23:05 "Unable to find *$, assuming you meant 'Delete *'." 21:26:37 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 21:27:06 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:27:30 -!- Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-74-243.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:28:33 -!- morn|eri [n=mornfall@ip-89-103-110-62.karneval.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 21:30:17 maskd [n=maskd@2001:470:1:41:a800:ff:fe59:ad66] has joined #lisp 21:30:38 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@114-45-226-57.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:34:35 -!- male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:37:37 -!- Intensity [i=[gdYV96b@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:39:44 nyef, zsh is moar liek 21:39:44 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:39:48 aurora ~% loli 21:39:48 zsh: correct 'loli' to 'lilo' [nyae]? 21:39:48 21:39:52 :) 21:40:16 nyef, that was from unix haters handbook? 21:40:42 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:40:49 weirdo: I don't believe so, it's a paraphrase from some description of the feature known as "Damn Warren's Infernal Machine". 21:40:59 Something to do with INTERLISP. 21:41:18 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:38 male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:15 ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:42:48 lichtblau: Thanks 21:42:51 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:42:52 Geralt1 [n=Geralt@p5B32D28D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:10 -!- Geralt1 is now known as Geralt 21:44:05 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:44:24 -!- male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:45:05 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-67-162.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:45:42 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [] 21:47:31 Intensity [i=[9N7YOGl@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 21:49:41 Are those the macros invented by Anna Foric? 21:50:13 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@140a.hackerdojo.com] has joined #lisp 21:51:57 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:17 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:57:50 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:58:03 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:15 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:41 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:09:29 -!- ryepup1 [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 22:14:10 -!- levy [n=levy@89.223.183.131] has quit ["..."] 22:15:47 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:17:17 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:20:35 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-240-45.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 22:22:37 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:23:34 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@140a.hackerdojo.com] has quit [] 22:24:19 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@140a.hackerdojo.com] has joined #lisp 22:24:28 -!- brapse [n=brapse@modemcable180.220-21-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:26:36 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:26:53 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 22:29:10 -!- reprore [n=reprore@116.82.73.92] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:30:51 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 22:31:48 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 22:34:22 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:59 -!- pierre_thierry [n=Pierre@88.164.172.1] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 22:37:33 benny` [n=benny@i577A0A04.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:38:52 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-75-71.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 22:41:03 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:42:29 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:43:23 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 22:44:26 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:47:59 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A081F.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:48:32 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 22:50:00 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p54BCBA82.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 22:50:25 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:50:42 Makoryu` [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:07 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:56:05 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:33 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:00:55 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:07:09 -!- ASau [n=user@ppp91-77-59-32.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:09:18 -!- nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:10:14 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:10 oh hi can i make MAPCAR return value dynamic-extent? 23:16:11 You can declare it as such, but I don't know if it'll help or not. 23:16:32 (Definately won't if MAPCAR isn't inlined.) 23:17:21 -!- benny` is now known as benny 23:19:24 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483F387.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:22:06 the array functions in sbcl seem to do the dynamic-extent thing more so than the list functions 23:22:39 ltriant [n=ltriant@59.167.195.42] has joined #lisp 23:23:25 well, you can know the size of the array more easily 23:23:54 yes, it is perhaps simpler to implement support for this sort of thing when dealing with arrays 23:25:24 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B169FD7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:27:03 pierre_thierry [n=Pierre@nsg93-7-88-164-172-1.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:38 -!- ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:28:56 ccl seems to be able stack allocate lists 23:28:59 ASau` [n=user@ppp91-77-57-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:30:02 ccl also has a different set of constraints on their stack layout. 23:30:06 ok 23:30:10 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:33:11 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@84-72-45-92.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [] 23:33:26 a (shared) common lisp compiler in common lisp would be interesting; just for all the transformation bits .. that bit before the low-level lisp -> asm or something .. *shrug* 23:33:43 ..perhaps a bad idea for reasons unknown to me 23:34:36 thedonvaughn [i=jvaughn@unaffiliated/printk] has joined #lisp 23:34:46 Well, the first thing that comes to mind is that the choice of transformations to include can easily depend on the nature of the conversion to assembly / machine code. 23:35:30 Can also depend on the models for special variable binding, non-local exit, condition-handler binding, restart-binding, etc. 23:35:52 ok 23:36:12 too many possibilities or factors even there then 23:36:28 and different compilers have different goals 23:36:49 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:36:59 And there's the issue of having a common internal representation to work from for the backend. 23:37:22 Which could easily limit the options for transformations and optimizations in the front-end. 23:37:40 LLVM! :) 23:37:51 parrot! (?) 23:38:13 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:38:43 but even these are quite low-level, i think .. just for transformations 23:39:47 (or well, not "just" .. as it turned out :P) 23:40:31 Angrybeardman [n=Part@68.147.21.90] has joined #lisp 23:42:21 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:43:26 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:44:16 -!- pierre_thierry [n=Pierre@nsg93-7-88-164-172-1.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:46:47 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:50:41 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:51:00 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@124.60.100.48] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:51:12 -!- seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:52:01 -!- lukjad007 is now known as ShadowChild 23:52:06 -!- ShadowChild is now known as lukjad007 23:52:53 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:53:34 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229067127.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 23:53:59 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:54:06 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Client Quit] 23:55:22 hi, i need some help, how can i load the symbols from a (require library) for use without name-space, like using :use in defpackage, thanks 23:55:51 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-84-210.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:57:11 perhaps you're looking for `use-package' ..? 23:57:33 thanks 23:57:50 -!- lukjad007 is now known as lukjadOO7 23:57:53 Note that direct package manipulation such as use-package is rarely done, and usually considered to not be of particularly good style. 23:57:54 -!- lukjadOO7 is now known as lukjad007