00:02:29 seangrove pasted "evaluation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87783 00:03:12 How can I get answer (which in this case would be (scale 1 5)) to evaluate as one of the initargs for 'Question? 00:03:58 remove parenthesis around answer 00:04:10 kylesmith [n=jfennick@c-76-125-248-34.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:38 er... 00:05:41 -!- macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["(call-with-current-continuation sleep)"] 00:05:42 How did that work? 00:05:51 Ah! 00:06:00 I'm forgetting the order of evaulation here 00:06:08 Sorry, my bad 00:06:19 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:06:21 well, it's not the order of evaluation 00:07:25 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-84-210.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 00:10:08 seangrove: different to scheme, in Common Lisp the CAR of a form is _not_ evaluated 00:10:43 well, it won't be meaningful in scheme either 00:11:17 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:14:05 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 00:16:25 seangrove pasted "multiple key value arguments" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87784 00:17:21 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:17:40 Would have defun put all of those in a &rest argument, and then loop over the argument taking the evens to be keys and the odds to be values? 00:18:39 this is called a plist 00:19:35 (getf '(:hair "Not bald" :clothes "Not Naked" :brains "Not Stupid") :brains) => "Not Stupid" 00:23:23 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-84-210.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:27:32 -!- jeti [n=jeti@p548ECCDA.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 00:29:01 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:30:36 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:36:31 does anybody know if the blackgrit guy ever released his phemlock patches, or what happend to him in general? i sent him an email a few months ago, but his domain is down 00:41:20 -!- ska` [n=user@124.157.196.138] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:41:38 Hmm. Is there a way to keep (very long) strings from being printed? 00:42:05 rtoym: *print-array* 00:42:19 won't work on strings 00:43:11 I thought there was some way, but I can't remember. 00:43:25 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 00:43:48 neither *print-array*, nor *print-length* affect strings 00:48:32 It's really annoying when you get dumped to the debugger and a really long string is printed. 00:49:43 did somebody change fuzzy-completion lately ? 00:50:06 pr-len doesn't complete into *print-length* any more 00:50:20 works for me 00:52:47 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441929.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:55:18 rtoym: In Slime, we use a custom pprint-dispatch function for that 00:56:16 rtoym: swank::*sldb-pprint-dispatch-table* 00:58:23 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-179-43.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:59:16 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-179-43.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:01:50 tcr: Ah. I'll have to try it in slime then. I'm not doing that right now.... 01:01:57 stassats: I've copied reload-slime from your init_lisp.el but apparently it doesn't always work correctly. I had to reboot emacs 01:02:28 seangrove annotated #87784 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87784#1 01:02:49 fe[nl]ix: yeah, i didn't check its correctness 01:02:52 gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:46 so i reset all configurations after reloading 01:04:02 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:11:37 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:13 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:39 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:13 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:19:32 lispbuilder looks like hell of a lot of fun 01:21:26 mikezor [n=mikael@c-4ae470d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:22:31 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:25:10 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:53 Can I have a list of other class-instances in a slot of a class? 01:26:39 why in a slot? 01:27:13 I'll post my code so far 01:28:34 seangrove pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87786 01:29:20 woops 01:29:27 seangrove pasted "QuizDSL" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87787 01:29:35 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:29:35 There we go 01:29:46 well, you can annotate pastes, don't create new 01:30:27 My apologies 01:31:08 Anyway, a survey should have multiple questions. I'd like each of the questions to be entered into the survey object - at least, that seems how I should do it 01:31:23 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229244101.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 01:31:50 you can have a class allocatable slot, and put new instances there in a INITIALIZE-INSTANCE method 01:32:33 So any instance would have access to all the others? 01:32:48 -!- mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-4ae470d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:33:02 or rather shared-initialize 01:33:07 yes 01:33:23 That's an interesting idea 01:34:28 What if each survey object should have a distinct set of quetions? 01:34:36 That's not necessary right now, but I'm just curious 01:35:54 you can make a subclass of a class question and redefine its class-allocated slot 01:36:42 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-179-43.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:36:53 young [n=khar@c-67-177-206-13.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:04 Hey why am I banned from #math channel? 01:37:15 hey, why are you asking here? :P 01:37:22 they sent me here from #not math 01:37:32 somehow, i'm not surprised 01:37:39 lol what's going on? 01:37:44 how do i get unbanned from #not math 01:37:53 i mean ubanned from #math 01:37:59 Is that normal? 01:38:04 what? 01:38:12 talk to the freendoe ops. info on freenode.org 01:38:33 young: this is not an appropriate place to ask 01:38:48 k thx 01:39:05 there is no relationship between this chan and the otehr one 01:39:51 yeah he;s a nerd and he's trying to e-bully me 01:39:52 what a fag 01:40:22 please, either maintain silence, or steak to the topic 01:40:32 stassats: steak is the new topic? 01:40:36 steak to the topic 01:40:37 *Adlai* wants steak 01:40:38 haha 01:41:15 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:41 -!- young [n=khar@c-67-177-206-13.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has left #lisp 01:41:45 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A367.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:42:14 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-79-128.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:45:37 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@68.100.82.124] has quit [] 01:51:02 -!- blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:52:47 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:53:44 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:17 -!- phf` [n=user@c-76-124-103-85.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:59:42 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:05:08 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:08 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:06:39 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:08:09 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:50 -!- gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 02:10:10 so not being a nerd is bad, or what? 02:10:16 s/not/now 02:10:17 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@125.236.55.43] has joined #lisp 02:12:16 weirdo: nerd was originally a derogatory term... 02:12:26 (and still is amongs much of populace) 02:17:19 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.82.198] has joined #lisp 02:17:38 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:18:35 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@211.189.255.253] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:22:06 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:25:59 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@68.126.198.233] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:26:09 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-147.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 02:27:43 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:29:10 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:31:49 is there a way to establish a name as a dynamic variable with in a limited extent? defvar does it globally (if i understand it correctly) 02:32:09 eno__ [n=eno@70.137.154.237] has joined #lisp 02:32:22 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:32:46 i ususally create variables with a let binding; is there some kind of a declaration/THE trick to make a LET variable into a special? 02:32:51 clhs locally 02:32:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_locall.htm 02:32:59 clhs declare 02:33:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_declar.htm 02:33:03 clhs special 02:33:04 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_specia.htm 02:36:40 can I use (declare (special foo)) both in the binding site and the usage site? 02:37:19 -!- haroelcabo [n=user@r190-135-28-65.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:37:21 you need to use it in both places 02:37:29 oh, that makes sense 02:37:33 if they're lexically distinct 02:38:10 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.80.125] has joined #lisp 02:38:33 \o/ 02:38:47 like (defun foo () (locally (declare (special y)) y)) (let ((y 30)) (declare (special y)) (foo)) 02:40:54 (no need in locally in this particular example) 02:41:40 (defun foo (y) (list y (locally (declare (special y)) y))) (let ((y 30)) (declare (special y)) (foo 20)) is better 02:42:06 both forms work 02:42:30 -!- Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:53:53 {[[[[[[[[ 02:54:17 sorry ... ferrets are not lispers 02:54:32 (brats ... they are brats) 02:54:46 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:55:06 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 02:56:12 -!- Aszarsha [n=aszarsha@88-122-116-216.rev.libertysurf.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:01:59 lllllllllllllllllllllllljursa 03:02:19 ok.... i'll close the laptop. 03:02:27 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:03:05 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 03:06:59 drewc: my cat is an op at #startups 03:08:04 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:09:48 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:52 "On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog" 03:10:15 "In the Internet, nobody hears you scream..." 03:10:31 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:10:40 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 03:10:52 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:09 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 03:12:49 Adlai: "But they can sure hear you whine" 03:13:19 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 03:14:46 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:16:32 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:32 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:22:44 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:15 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-5-178.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:28:48 antgreen [n=user@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM0018c0b3c272.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:31:32 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 03:36:13 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:37:43 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-3-147.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:40:40 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:40:41 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:40:45 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.82.198] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:42:22 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 03:43:05 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:15 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:00 coderdad [n=coderdad@72.200.214.240] has joined #lisp 03:50:08 Levenson1 [n=Levenson@89.218.73.191] has joined #lisp 03:52:23 http://imgur.com/vzwbW <- ...Do people actually think this way about Clojure? It's sometimes hard to tell. 03:53:22 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:53:46 Monk1 [n=a@74.74.140.173] has joined #lisp 03:54:02 Just morons. 03:54:38 Unfortunately lisp seems to attract a certain class of ultra-conservative moron. 03:57:12 Zhivago: clearly a troll. That looks like one of 4chan's text boards. 03:57:40 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:58:20 Hello, I'm trying to learn lisp and I ran across a few examples were "sum" was used. When i try to use it out of a loop it dosen't seem to work. Is sum a macro of some sort? 03:58:44 clhs loop 03:58:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm 03:58:49 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-201-082.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:54 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:58:56 Monk1: sum is a loop keyword. It only works within the loop form 03:59:43 I've heard plenty of those sentiments elsewhere. 04:00:39 Yeah, in any other context I'd immediately assume "troll," but I've seen rants before that are a lot like this. 04:01:06 http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42 <- For example, this 04:01:41 sounds like a schemer 04:01:42 pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-129-200.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:10 Makoryu: that's a really hilarious post. 04:02:12 ++ to that guy. 04:02:21 hm thanks for the info. 04:07:15 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.80.125] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:10:01 -!- redblue [i=star@207.253.108.119] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:10:44 redblue [i=star@ppp036.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:12:49 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 04:13:56 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 04:14:10 -!- lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-242-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:17:08 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-129-200.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:18:29 Oh btw, have any of you been to http://projecteuler.net ? pretty cool site. Bascially a bunch of math programming challenges. 04:18:57 I think it's interesting, but I wouldn't use it for learning lisp. 04:19:03 oh? 04:19:17 it's good for cute examples, I guess, but not for actually building stuff. 04:19:42 if you want to learn lisp, read a good book about it and write something other than toy math examples. 04:19:51 Monk1: http://gigamonkeys.com/book 04:20:14 sykopomp: ah yeah, was reading it a bit earlier 04:23:29 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.168.65] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:24:44 nice to finally see comments against Clojure. (not that I was looking for them, but I just realized I had never seen any rants against it, only praises) 04:24:55 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:25:04 felideon: it's not -that- bad, I just don't find it that interesting. 04:25:13 right 04:25:19 more overhyped than everything, although I guess it's great if you're one of those programmers that's stuck coding java for a livin.g 04:25:25 true 04:25:29 but then, what about ABCL? 04:25:44 isn't clojure's interface to java better? 04:25:58 no idea. was just asking 04:26:39 I think the biggest turnoff about clojure is the users :) 04:26:45 or its proponents. 04:27:02 are they worse than RoR'ers? 04:27:03 "clearly, clojure got everything right, and CL is all wrong" <-- sort of meh 04:28:03 nah 04:28:36 ruby people are artsy webhipsters. 04:28:40 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:49 that's true I guess 04:41:30 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:45:31 does clojure even have keyword arguments? 04:46:15 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:49:47 -!- z4v [n=tmh@18987153227.nit.megazon.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:51:51 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 04:52:10 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 04:53:52 weirdo: No, you're just supposed to use a hash 04:54:42 (hash-map, rather) 04:55:33 Although you can define functions that fake the CL key args style: (fn [foo & rest] (let [hash-args (apply hash-map rest)] ... 04:56:25 And naturally this can all be hidden with macros 04:56:55 peddie [n=peddie@c-67-169-146-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:58 has anyone had any issues with clbuild recently? specifically it seems like when I update (./clbuild update --all-projects) it gets projects i havent even installed, and get errors connecting to some repos, like cl-biodasm 04:57:19 and i dont even need cl-biodas 04:57:53 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 04:58:08 actually... cl-cairo. skipping and resuming doesn't seem to work either 04:58:09 <_3b> ./clbuild update --installed maybe? 04:59:13 doesnt --all-projects supposedly get main-projects and wnpp-projects? what is the difference in using --installed? 05:00:05 <_3b> --installed only updated what you alreadyhave installed... --all-projects updates/installs everything 05:00:29 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 05:00:43 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 05:00:43 oh, wow. i thought just whatever _I_ had in projects/wnpp-projects 05:00:48 _3b: thanks 05:03:42 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:06:09 -!- int80_h_ [n=michael@68.166.221.28] has quit ["leaving"] 05:13:59 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@72.200.214.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:19:04 felideon: Got the envelope today. Your book will be in the mail on Monday. 05:19:33 gigamonkey: Nice. Thanks. 05:23:06 -!- salva [n=salva@91.117.11.105] has quit [] 05:27:51 -!- Monk1 [n=a@74.74.140.173] has quit [] 05:29:04 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@96.243.2.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:38:10 morning. 05:40:06 ak70``` [n=user@195.158.89.22] has joined #lisp 05:44:30 good morning 05:54:13 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:54:32 hello 05:56:03 is it a problem when slime vs swank version differ? (I get an alert) I just continue and it seems to be fine. 05:56:30 -!- Levenson1 [n=Levenson@89.218.73.191] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:58:18 -!- ak70`` [n=user@195.158.89.22] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:01:02 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:19 felideon: you probably just have to restart emacs. 06:01:31 and there -might- be problems, but not necessarily. 06:02:38 Hey all, is there a way to add additional arguments to a defmethod? 06:03:00 no, but you can add &optional and &keyword args if the genfun allows it. 06:03:33 but methods must have the same number of required arguments as the genfun. 06:03:34 Ah, that must be my problem then 06:03:59 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176152700.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 06:04:57 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@125.236.55.43] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:06:39 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:25 sykopomp: ah gotcha, thanks. 06:08:04 sykopomp: i always seem to forget that, now that you mention it 06:10:20 why does common lisp have funcall? 06:11:12 I don't know, calling functions seems so pointless 06:11:26 let's just have variables with numbers in them, although we'll have no functions to get their values with 06:12:27 rullie: unless you have a more clear explanation for a question like that. 06:12:46 what i mean is if i have (def a () (lambda (x) (+ x 1))), isn't ((a) 1) so much better than (funcall (a) 1) ? 06:13:28 common lisp is a lisp-2 06:13:58 being lisp-2 doesn't suggest any logical reasoning behind the need for "funcall" 06:14:11 i'm sure they have a reason, just wondering what it is 06:14:13 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-12-86.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:14:18 Good morning. 06:14:28 rullie: What alternative do you see? 06:14:38 Zhivago: ((a) 1) ? 06:15:22 that's an interesting question. Considering lisp does make special accomodations to allow lambda forms in the first place of a sexp. 06:15:33 So, how would you distinguish that from (defun a () ...) invocation? 06:16:10 The alternative to funcall is essentially a lighter weight version of flet. 06:16:26 well, in the case of ((a) 1), you evaluate (a) first, which returns a function, then you get a (function param) 06:16:37 Zhivago: (a) => a function that adds 1, ((a) 1) => 2 06:16:49 rullie: So you would evaluate the first element of the list only when it is not a symbol? 06:17:13 beach: the 1st element of a list is always treated as a function in s-expression, i thought? 06:17:25 no 06:17:29 that's not true, even in scheme. 06:17:52 rullie: no, special forms aren't functions 06:17:57 or macros 06:18:01 ok, excuse my ignorance 06:18:06 rullie: If variables and functions are in different namespaces, how does ((a) ...) distinguish between these? 06:18:12 rullie: You didn't answer my question. Would you treat the first element of (a b) different from the first element of ((a) b) 06:18:40 beach: you can. 06:18:49 see ((lambda (x) (1+ x)) 2) 06:18:50 beach: the 1st elements in the 2 lists are different 06:19:35 sykopomp: ah, the difference is that (lambda (x) (1+ x)) isn't evaluated there 06:19:36 rullie: I know that. That's why I made up the example. But in your hypothetical lisp-witout-funcall, would the (a) be evaluated in the second case, but the a would not in the first case? 06:20:06 sykopomp: Yes, I am just asking whether rullie thought one should. 06:20:08 Adlai: it's true 06:20:17 beach: i see what you mean 06:20:33 Common Lisp makes lambda very confusing by defining it as a macro, on top of the special treatment it gets by #' 06:21:03 and the special car-of-sexp treatment 06:21:19 deshkanna [n=chatzill@122.167.70.55] has joined #lisp 06:22:04 beach: if there's no function called a that takes in 1 parameter, i suppose (a b) is not legal 06:22:29 You could argue for ((function a) 1 2), perhaps 06:22:42 But writing (#'+ 1 2) all the time might be tiresome. 06:23:08 rullie: You can't know that in advance, because you are allowed to write (a b) and compile it before you define the function named a. 06:23:18 You could invent another special like ((variable a) 1 2) to replace funcall ... 06:24:07 beach: why can't you check for illegal params 06:24:17 i get that error quite often :p 06:24:54 a compiler could try to warn you if the parameters mismatch 06:25:13 rullie: you would have to do that at runtime, which would make a function call very costly. I am assuming you are suggesting that (a b) means: if there is a function a, then call it, otherwise evaluate a and use it as a function to call. Right? 06:26:48 beach: if i understand you correctly, no 06:26:57 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-29-142.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:27:25 if function a is a no param function that returns a lambda that takes in x, then (a b) should not be allowed 06:27:39 because (defun a (x) ...) doesn't exist 06:27:51 what if the fdefinition of the symbol is redefined in the future? 06:28:06 rullie: But you didn't answer my question about compilation. You are allowed to write (a b), compile it, and then define a later. 06:28:28 beach: it'd give the warning though.. right? 06:28:40 defun is similar to (setf (fdefinition 'symbol) def) 06:28:49 rullie: What code should be generated? 06:29:30 beach: i don't know enough about lisp to answer that question 06:29:57 rullie: You don't have to. You only need to know about compilation. 06:30:35 ljames: (fdefinition name). Function names can be sexps. 06:31:04 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:31:16 beach: what code does (a b) generate normally if a (x) is not defined 06:31:16 oh right, as in (setf name) 06:33:20 rullie, a call to the fdefinition of that symbol (at least in the implementation I'm using, I'm not sure what clhs says about this) 06:33:49 rullie: rullie, code to look up the fdefinition of a and call it with the value of b. 06:33:50 rullie: As I said, if you would treat (a b) and ((a) b) differently, then you would not need funcall in the second case. You would not evaluate a in the first example (but instead look it up with fdefinition), and you would evaluate (a) in the second example. If you evaluate a in the first example, you essentially get a LIsp-1 06:35:22 rullie: You would still need funcall though, because if a is a variable with a function as its value, then you couldn't call it with (a b), and you would need (funcall a b). 06:35:42 ok, i think i sort of see what you mean 06:35:59 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 06:36:09 rullie: The only other possibility I see is to generate code for (a b) that first checks whether a has an fdefinition, and if so call it, and if not, evaluate a as a variable. 06:36:28 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2F912.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:37:12 -!- vishsingh [n=vsingh@CPE0014bf4af6c2-CM000a739caee2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 06:37:14 beach: so ((a) b) would do something like this? look up a in fdef, finds it, and (a) gets replaced by the lambda stuff, then look up lambda stuff in fdef, which is not bound, hence fail? 06:37:30 rullie no 06:37:35 gah.. 06:37:53 kindly englighten, if you do not mind 06:38:40 rullie: It would look up the fdefiniton of a (which would be native compiled code), set a flag saying that 0 arguments were passed, and jump to the first instruction of that code. 06:38:42 maybe it would be easier for you to look at the output of (disassemble (compile nil #'(lambda () (doesnt-exist)))) in some implementation? 06:38:50 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:39:37 rullie: When that code returns, the value is in a register (and it should be a function), then evaluate b and put it in an agreed-upon place, set a flag saying one argument was passed and jump to the native code returned by the (a) call. 06:40:02 Adlai pasted "Primes, Channels, and Randomness -- A Sample" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87795 06:40:52 beach: isn't that a success? 06:41:05 "success"? 06:41:13 as in ((a) b) worked? 06:41:17 yes 06:41:29 I thought that's what you wanted. 06:41:32 using the possibility you described right? 06:41:37 yes 06:41:55 ok, what i described above is why what i thought would not work 06:42:25 i *think *i understand you 06:42:38 I said it would work, at least if you treat the a in (a b) and the (a) in ((a) b) differently. 06:42:53 lexa_ [n=lexa_@83.222.5.112] has joined #lisp 06:42:56 and that would hinder performance 06:42:57 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@83.222.5.112] has left #lisp 06:43:02 no 06:43:57 vishsingh [n=vsingh@CPE0014bf4af6c2-CM000a739caee2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 06:44:19 Treating the a in (a b) the way I described (first looking up the fdefinion of a and if it doesn't exist, evaluating a) *might* slow things down, but I don't think by much after all. 06:44:28 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-179-43.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:44:49 if that's the case, then back to my oriinal question, why funcall? 06:45:15 You would have to ask the people who wrote the standard. 06:45:49 oh 06:46:27 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.83] has joined #lisp 06:46:34 thanks for all that explanation guys 06:46:42 no problem. 06:47:27 rullie: Treating (a b) the way I suggested might create problems. 06:47:42 like what? 06:48:17 Like unintentional variable capture. 06:48:20 rullie: you have a variable a somewhere else with the same name. 06:48:35 maybe this paper would interest you rullie: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html 06:48:57 (let ((vector (lambda () (print "uh oh")))) (vector vector)) or such 06:49:31 also, I think a preference for being very explicit when you're going to use a non-function-name in the beginning of an expression in preferable. 06:49:38 ljames: awesome 06:49:49 and honestly, I don't think I've used funcall by itself very often at all. 06:51:09 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:51:50 ljames: I don't seem to be able to access that document. 06:52:04 beach: works fine here... 06:52:30 hmm, It works in Emacs but not in Firefox... 06:52:33 http://www.dreamsongs.com/Separation.html here's a mirror 06:52:43 beach: it's richard gabriel's thing about lisp1 vs lisp1 06:52:45 2* 06:53:05 Ah, got it. 06:55:44 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.141.2] has joined #lisp 06:55:57 How can I get md5 to return the string equivalent of print-md5? 06:55:59 http://paste.lisp.org/display/87796 06:56:49 -!- kylesmith [n=jfennick@c-76-125-248-34.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:57:15 Format outputs it the right way, but returns nil... 06:58:00 daniel__ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:58:04 seangrove: you could use with-output-to-string 06:58:25 (with-output-to-string (stream) (format stream "foo")) => returns "foo" 06:58:47 mishoo: umm. (format nil "foo") :) 06:58:53 mishoo: If he can modify the code, might as well replace t by nil. 06:59:03 oh, true :)) 06:59:16 Perhaps I'm being backwards by thinking of strings instead of lists? 06:59:19 *mishoo* thinks ..oO( I'm still low on coffee ) 06:59:25 benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-124-177-162-112.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:59:32 Thank you for the answers, by the way :D 06:59:33 seangrove: no 06:59:34 seangrove: but you should use ironclad, anyway, which provides functions to output hex md5 06:59:53 seangrove: be prepared to go make a sandwich when you compile ironclad, though. 07:00:06 :) 07:00:16 Yeah, that doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun 07:00:27 worth it, though. ironclad is pretty fantastic. 07:00:46 Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.73.191] has joined #lisp 07:01:25 c|mell [n=cmell@211.189.255.253] has joined #lisp 07:01:26 seangrove: If you can't modify the code, try something like (with-output-to-string (stream) (let ((*standard-output* stream)) (print-md5 ...))) 07:01:51 Oh, I have access to all of the code, this is my first "production" lisp project 07:01:57 Just building a dsl up here 07:02:11 nostoi [n=nostoi@60.Red-79-152-62.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:15 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 07:02:58 "up here"? 07:03:16 seangrove: btw, I might be wrong, but I think you variant with format is flawed 07:03:23 Err... Just building a dsl up, here. 07:03:44 mishoo: how so? 07:03:45 <_3b> seangrove: ~2,'0x 07:04:07 seangrove: yeah, it writes "9" instead of "09" so you get a weird hash 07:05:05 Is that a broken format directive? 07:05:35 _3b's blurb looks like it could either be a format directive, or an obscure assembly instruction :D 07:05:42 -!- benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-124-177-162-112.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:05:54 <_3b> it is a format fdirective, intended to replace the ~x in yours 07:06:05 -!- vishsingh [n=vsingh@CPE0014bf4af6c2-CM000a739caee2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 07:06:10 <_3b> *directive 07:06:17 seangrove: (format nil "~{~(~2,'0x~)~}~%" id) 07:06:38 does anyone know how compatible http://common-lisp.net/project/zlib/ is with zlib compressed data made using the original zlib library(written in c)? Or would I be better off just using the FFI bindings to zlib from this page http://www.cliki.net/cl-zlib ? 07:06:55 Looks like that works, thanks :D 07:06:59 I never would have noticed 07:07:08 <_3b> it is ~x with two parameters, 2 specifying field width, and '0 specifying character to pad left of field with if printed value doesn't fit 07:07:29 *mishoo* thinks ..oO( and I think ~( and ~) aren't needed ) 07:07:51 ~( ~) lowercases the string, right? 07:08:13 oh, yes 07:08:15 <_3b> yeah, lowercase is less important, but may still be desired 07:08:38 <_3b> ljames: you might also look at chipz and/or salza 07:08:45 format is simply crazy 07:08:56 That seems to be the best approximation I can come up with 07:09:25 I suppose i'll take a look at those 07:11:14 <_3b> i'd expect all of them to be compatible, but might have different convenience/speed/compression tradeoffs 07:12:01 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@60.Red-79-152-62.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 07:12:02 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:17 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:12:33 vsync [n=vsync@BLISTER.QUADIUM.NET] has joined #lisp 07:13:11 writing some Rucksack code for real now 07:13:39 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:13:50 i think i have how to do defclass all worked out, meaning how an application can boot and have all its classes and find an existing rucksack 07:13:56 if anyone has sample code please let me know 07:18:58 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:21:24 schemer999 [n=tmilford@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:22:13 -!- tagac [n=user@55.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has left #lisp 07:27:51 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [] 07:29:52 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 07:30:17 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:31:23 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:33:07 Baconizer [n=baconize@unaffiliated/baconizer] has joined #lisp 07:34:33 -!- Baconizer [n=baconize@unaffiliated/baconizer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:35:51 Baconizer [n=baconize@unaffiliated/baconizer] has joined #lisp 07:36:16 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 07:38:18 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 07:47:07 -!- deshkanna [n=chatzill@122.167.70.55] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:47:55 deshkanna [n=chatzill@122.167.70.55] has joined #lisp 07:55:06 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@75.36.204.63] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:55:51 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:56:10 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:58:40 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 08:00:39 did i find a bug already? yes i did! 08:01:38 hsaliak_ [n=chatzill@cm34.sigma72.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 08:03:08 what's your bug vsync? 08:04:14 kwertii [n=kwertii@67.180.202.175] has joined #lisp 08:05:17 macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:09:06 [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.85.128] has joined #lisp 08:09:59 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:10:50 -!- kwertii [n=kwertii@67.180.202.175] has quit ["bye"] 08:11:08 kwertii [n=kwertii@67.180.202.175] has joined #lisp 08:11:47 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.208.235] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 08:12:24 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:13:17 it was in my code *sigh* 08:15:11 c|mell: i thought i had my defclass and db load worked out 08:15:37 turns out the defclass has to be run after each open-rucksack for indexes to work right 08:17:01 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.141.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:18:10 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-1-180.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:37 ahh but now i'm triggering "illegal markers" in the db store again 08:21:08 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:21:53 -!- seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:22:19 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:27:11 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 08:30:33 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 08:34:25 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-11-190.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:37:09 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit ["leaving"] 08:37:13 <_8david> tcr: it used to be possible to say DEFREADTABLE and then IN-READTABLE in the same file. Now the in-readtable signals an error, saying that the readtable doesn't exist. I don't understand why, since defreadtable uses eval-when. Any ideas? 08:37:49 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 08:38:58 -!- KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-1-180.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:41:01 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:41:11 serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06ed0a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:41:16 good morning 08:42:25 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 08:45:27 ska` [n=user@ppp-58-8-119-173.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 08:46:29 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229082001.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:47:00 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-123.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:48:05 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:50:05 serichsen: morn' 08:55:46 milanj [n=milan@93.87.150.127] has joined #lisp 08:56:02 KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-2-163.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:57:18 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:59:16 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:59:31 wasn't there some kind of trim-left trim-right function for strings? 08:59:50 something like SUBSEQ but removes based on character class 08:59:53 clhs string-right-trim 08:59:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_stg_tr.htm 09:00:16 *Ralith* notes-to-self that he could clean up some code with that 09:00:28 Adlai: cheers! 09:01:03 fusss: no problem. I find hyperspec.el very useful for things like this 09:01:06 Waehlt lieber Piraten statt gar nicht! 09:01:46 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-29-143.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:01:49 (it lets you do tab-completion and shows possibilities) 09:02:20 slime already provides that O.o 09:02:42 I think slime just includes hyperspec.el 09:02:45 -!- deshkanna [n=chatzill@122.167.70.55] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824085414]"] 09:02:51 probably improves on it too 09:06:14 I mean, slime provides tab completion with suggestions for *all* functions compiled into the image 09:06:54 -!- pemryan is now known as pem 09:07:06 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 09:07:27 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 09:07:32 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:08:50 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 09:09:59 Davse_Ba1se [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 09:10:04 -!- Davse_Ba1se [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 09:11:25 -!- kwertii [n=kwertii@67.180.202.175] has quit [] 09:11:41 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:49 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"] 09:13:39 -!- holycow [n=new@64.151.208.1] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:15:30 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:18:15 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 09:18:46 ejs [n=eugen@128-96-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:43 -!- ska` [n=user@ppp-58-8-119-173.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:22:27 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:23:22 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 09:26:21 *fusss* wants perl's chomp function 09:27:23 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:30:48 is there not a package with the standard splice/chomp/etc. functions you find in list and string types in python/ruby/perl around? 09:32:44 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:32:52 tic: it's builtin, string-trim 09:33:00 but it's dumb 09:33:13 you could always orchestrate the string functions to get what you want done 09:35:04 http://www.cliki.net/langutils 09:35:21 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 09:38:40 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:39:56 man. I watched Rob Pike's google talk on newsqueak. It -does- sound really cool to have a super-threaded web server :-o 09:40:41 threads are evil 09:41:02 sykopomp: is newsqueak that weird awkish thing or a new version of Squeak smalltalk? 09:41:16 fusss: it's a concurrent language 09:41:32 so it's the weird awkish/pike-ish thing 09:41:57 not sure if we're talking about the same thing, but it might be. 09:42:44 but I also discovered today that several lisps shit themselves in the 5k-12k thread range, although that was very unscientific :P 09:43:09 the good news is you might get away with solving c10k in CCL ;) 09:43:52 sykopomp: c10k is a joke 09:43:55 thread doesn't mean the same thing in all contexts 09:44:01 you should be able to do that with epoll 09:44:03 not threads 09:44:10 a lightweight thread is very very different from a heavyweight thread 09:44:27 there is no reason on earth to create 5k-12k heavyweight threads 09:44:32 fusss: but what if the threads come with a very nice interface? :) 09:44:51 sykopomp: Redis does 80k requests per second, and not a single thread in sight 09:45:21 Real men do it multiprocess 09:45:22 whoa O.o 09:47:08 Redis isn't a webserver, though 09:47:13 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:47:18 it's apparently a database <_< 09:54:14 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-1-253.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:54:24 girzel [n=user@123.121.233.227] has joined #lisp 09:55:12 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:57:17 -!- [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.85.128] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:58:20 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 10:01:26 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:06:54 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 10:06:57 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 10:07:07 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:08:14 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:12:34 younder [n=jpthing@113.14.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 10:14:18 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:19:45 <_8david> tcr: Moin. Now that you're actually here, let me repeat my question... 10:19:50 <_8david> It used to be possible to say DEFREADTABLE and then IN-READTABLE in the same file. Now the in-readtable signals an error, saying that the readtable doesn't exist. I don't understand why, since defreadtable uses eval-when. Any ideas? 10:20:30 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:09 BACOON [n=baconize@unaffiliated/baconizer] has joined #lisp 10:25:12 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp036.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:25:31 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:26:11 ruepel0r [n=rue@77-21-138-135-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:27:38 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 10:27:38 <_8david> BRB 10:27:53 -!- _8david [n=user@92.195.97.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:29:00 Blaay [i=Blay@BSN-142-37-75.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 10:33:23 -!- Baconizer [n=baconize@unaffiliated/baconizer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:37:31 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:38:59 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:40:12 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 10:40:32 -!- Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:43:23 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Client Quit] 10:47:38 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.241.206] has joined #lisp 10:47:52 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:48:23 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 10:49:49 redblue [i=star@ppp060.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 10:53:14 -!- younder [n=jpthing@113.14.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 10:56:55 -!- ak70``` [n=user@195.158.89.22] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:58:41 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-109-241.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 10:59:33 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:04:09 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.241.206] has quit [] 11:05:46 minion: memo for _8david: see 3rd item at http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/named-readtables.html#important_api_idiosyncrasies 11:05:46 Remembered. I'll tell _8david when he/she/it next speaks. 11:08:03 salva [n=salva@91.117.11.105] has joined #lisp 11:11:10 danlei [n=user@pD9E2CEF6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:32 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@tmo-100-24.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:11:38 benny [n=benny@87.122.15.255] has joined #lisp 11:13:35 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:14:07 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 11:14:23 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.73.191] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:15:04 -!- hsaliak_ [n=chatzill@cm34.sigma72.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:16:15 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:04 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 11:21:25 Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.73.191] has joined #lisp 11:22:00 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32C63C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:23:17 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Client Quit] 11:23:19 ejs1 [n=eugen@128-96-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:00 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:31:48 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-1-253.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:32:15 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-1-253.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:37:36 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:38:38 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:49:43 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-1-253.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:51:44 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 11:52:30 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:52:32 -!- Jafet1 is now known as jafet 11:54:36 Lycurgus [n=Ren@pool-71-186-141-217.bflony.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:17 tekin [n=kaa@85.108.56.166] has joined #lisp 12:02:45 what approaches do people recommend for benchmarking a search engine (Montezuma)? 12:03:18 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 12:03:52 I have a database table with 20k records which is modeling a document (title, body, author, pub_date, keywords) and it would be just perfect for testing montezuma 12:04:45 i am not worried about search quality, just performance; i.e. how many requests per second can it handle. 12:10:02 pr_ [n=pr@p579CADC1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:06 Post it to /. 12:17:11 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:18:13 -!- hefner_ [n=hefner@ppp-58-11-46-31.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:18:15 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@222-154-179-43.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:18:33 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-104.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:20:01 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483EC43.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:24:53 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 12:25:14 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-179-43.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:26:39 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.141.2] has joined #lisp 12:27:47 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.73.191] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:29:21 Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.73.191] has joined #lisp 12:32:30 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@222-154-179-43.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:34:55 hefner_ [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-103-217.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 12:36:15 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 12:36:58 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:34 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 12:41:18 -!- benny [n=benny@87.122.15.255] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:42:26 Aszarsha [n=aszarsha@91-164-134-169.rev.libertysurf.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:40 -!- DeusExPikachu [i=pikachu@anapnea.net] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:52:40 -!- sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:52:40 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:52:40 -!- albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:53:59 -!- pr_ [n=pr@p579CADC1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 12:54:00 DeusExPikachu [i=pikachu@anapnea.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:00 albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #lisp 12:54:00 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has joined #lisp 12:54:00 sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:59:48 Good afternoon! 13:00:15 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:41 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:01:43 -!- greyhame [n=jao@75.Red-88-6-168.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["leaving"] 13:04:26 i think the reddit logo has the "On Lisp" cover in it 13:05:09 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 13:05:33 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:05:43 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:06:39 lnostdal: yes it does 13:06:52 http://static.reddit.com/reddit.com.header.png 13:07:01 such empty pandering 13:07:10 heh :) 13:07:50 *sick*, I just loaded 20k records into a database from the repl 13:08:06 and I am getting 20k for everyday for the rest next few weeks :-) 13:10:53 *fusss* also got a first dead-pixel on this laptop in the most fortunate upper left corner :-) 13:14:59 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 13:15:03 -!- lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 13:20:54 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:21:41 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 13:23:33 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.141.2] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:23:47 SandGorgon_ [n=OmNomNom@122.162.141.2] has joined #lisp 13:24:00 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:24:14 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 13:34:41 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 13:36:25 tomtom_unaff [n=tomtom_u@130.225.192.232] has joined #lisp 13:36:35 -!- tomtom_unaff [n=tomtom_u@130.225.192.232] has left #lisp 13:42:33 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:45:24 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.150.127] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:47:58 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:48:08 -!- tekin [n=kaa@85.108.56.166] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:48:53 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:57 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 13:53:02 Re: testing search engine .. do an ajax auto-completion thing and *that* will test it 13:57:03 all class definitions should be in pure sexp or XMLSchema-simple, ditto for all record updates, including database insertions AND search engine indexing; that way you can empty both db and search engine and repopulate them with one command during testing 13:57:53 Both Lucene and Ferret documentation work just as well for Montezuma, horray for cloning :-) 13:59:26 ruediger [n=ruediger@93.82.15.107] has joined #lisp 14:00:43 The "Dolly" of the search-engine world? 14:00:52 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.82.198] has joined #lisp 14:03:00 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@128-96-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:03:06 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:21 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:03:57 lukjadOO7 [n=lukjadOO@ip216-239-86-240.vif.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:58 -!- lukjadOO7 is now known as Guest42619 14:04:01 the Albert 14:04:22 Albert was a dino-chicken made with few strands of RNA from Dolly's toe-nail clippings 14:04:45 -!- Guest42619 [n=lukjadOO@ip216-239-86-240.vif.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:05:18 he had to be put down after devouring a few university of alberta staff, and sitting on their heads trying to hatch them 14:05:24 ShadowChild [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 14:06:25 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 14:12:04 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:12:16 LiamH [n=healy@pool-151-200-238-90.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:37 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:12:52 -!- ShadowChild is now known as lukjad007 14:12:55 Hrm... Just read the thread on win32 threading on sbcl-devel from about two weeks ago. 14:13:10 nyef: and he has a point 14:13:32 Who has a point? Matthew, Brian, Nikodemus, Erik, or Anton? 14:13:41 Okay, Anton doesn't have a point. 14:14:10 the guy who started it trying to pool money 14:14:24 i am talking about a blog post, not sbcl-devel 14:14:25 Absolutely. 14:14:33 Yeah, Erik Winkels. 14:15:51 I look at the hacking involved and I -know- how intricate it is, and how to do most of it. But 250 euros just isn't enough for it to be worth my while. But if there's an actual pool involved, and it sounds like there might be... 14:16:26 And there's still a lot to do even without getting threading running, some of which would be useful in implementing threading. 14:17:50 Even the silly c:\dev\tty thing, for example, should get fixed, though it's arguably a low-priority bug. 14:17:51 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:18:19 nyef: like Xach said, you can't eat "props" 14:18:57 Depends on what they're made of. Ever tried making a Big Rock-Candy Mountain for miniature wargaming? 14:19:23 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229082001.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 14:19:26 no :-P 14:19:58 But yeah, 250 euros isn't worth my time. SBCL/Win32 in better shape is worth -some- of my time, but not enough at this point for threading to be a major effort for me again. 14:20:41 Both factors together... Not yet enough to tip the balance on threading. 14:20:45 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.168.65] has joined #lisp 14:20:45 nyef: can you just start hacking something willy nilly? i usually need to be excited about something before i can do it 14:21:00 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 14:21:05 It... varies. 14:21:25 how does Java ME game hacking sound like, on Symbian? 14:21:27 There are techniques that can be used to stimulate interest in almost anything, even watching paint dry. 14:21:37 i declined that gig 14:22:50 i would do DOS hacking almost for free, and it's universally loathed 14:23:02 (Hrm... Java, which I could probably do but don't have particular experience with and rather rubs me the wrong way; Symbian, which I know sod-all about; and game hacking, which sounds like it could be interesting... Play up the game hacking aspect and it might be worthwhile.) 14:24:10 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229082001.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:24:45 there should be some continuity in what i am doing; i get bored with stuff, sure, but usually I don't go far, I just pick up something marginally related until I am interested again 14:25:35 Mmm... And my project focus tends to be cyclical. 14:26:14 milaz [n=user@77.106.223.233] has joined #lisp 14:27:23 though sometimes you place a red "X" on certain things, reminding yourself to never go back (hello MS COM+!) 14:27:24 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:27:37 Heh. 14:27:42 Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-38-229.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 14:28:07 One of these days, I'd like to see if the design I worked out for COM in SBCL would actually work in practice. 14:29:03 i never took you for a masochist, but maybe that's your secret weapon 14:29:07 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:29:51 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 14:30:00 does anyone here use paredit? 14:30:37 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:52 yes 14:31:39 wgl: There is also #paredit, which is quiet, but watched. But I think most of us here use it. 14:31:59 But the interactions between the type libraries, SB-ALIEN, CLOS, and the COM object layout are so -interesting-... 14:32:16 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:32:33 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:32:53 The only real problem is that there's no real way to equate COM object identity to any sense of CL equality. 14:32:58 Cool. How about redshank? 14:33:20 that too 14:33:23 I use paredit on about half my emacsen. And was surprised when it wasn't working on the other half. 14:34:10 nyef: Symbian has most apps done in C++, afaik 14:35:13 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 14:35:24 format directive to print strings in lowercase? 14:35:27 Ok, now to figure out how to swap parens and square brackets 14:35:37 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:35:52 like string-downcase 14:35:55 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:36:10 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 14:37:04 fusss: ~( 14:37:36 sellout: do you use any [ vs ( flippage? 14:37:52 wgl: Nope. 14:38:02 milaz: (format t "~(~a)" "Foo")? 14:38:13 I don't know format and loop 14:38:56 I have been using (define-key slime-mode-map (kbd "[") 'insert-parentheses) to insert parens without hitting shift key. 14:39:09 fusss: (format t "~(~a~)" "Foo") 14:39:18 fusss: closing paren must be ~) too 14:39:28 got it! cheers milaz 14:39:52 Hrm. x86 pseduo-atomic is nice. Getting useful semantics off of it for console control processing is going to be straightforward. 14:40:50 clop2 [n=jared@99-23-192-153.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:24 is there a way to build a cons whose values get filled in implicitly later? e.g., let x = (cons [place1] [place2]), then later setf place1/place2, and afterwards have x be what you put in those places? 14:43:51 clop2: (let ((x (cons nil nil))) (setf (car x) 14) (setf (cdr x) 41)) ? 14:44:14 That's more of an explicit, but you could hide the (car x) and (cdr x) with a symbol-macrolet. 14:44:17 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 14:44:37 Which is still lexical, but would get you closer to the semantics you described. 14:44:39 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:44:43 right... i guess what i'm imagining is that one thread would be building this cons structure by pointing to an array or something, which another thread would be populating 14:44:46 Then feel free to hide the entire arrangement behind a macro. 14:45:11 so i don't think i can explicitly setf the car/cdr becasue they wouldn't exist in the eyes of the array-populating thread 14:45:14 if that makes any sense 14:45:28 It makes a certain amount of sense, but... 14:45:39 I could see it happening in certain very restricted cases. 14:46:06 what is the correct syntax for a (check-type fun-arg (member "valid" "string" "arguments" "think" "as" "in" "shell" "or" "ftp" "commands"))? 14:46:11 And they aren't pretty, aren't easy to set up, are GC-dependent, are implementation-dependent, etc. 14:46:24 ah yeah 14:46:35 clop2: What is it that you are trying to do? 14:46:38 i actually only care about ccl, but yeah maybe gc issues are trouble 14:46:55 i'm trying to serialize to disk large lisp objects consisting of conses, symbols, numbers, and read them back in really, really fast 14:47:08 girzel` [n=user@123.121.215.229] has joined #lisp 14:47:12 and the machine has multiple cores so i was trying to imagine how to parallelize this 14:47:15 The -safest- method involves allocating a chunk of non-heap memory, blasting an array lispobj header in there, and then creating CONS pointers into the array data area. 14:47:58 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:48:06 You're trying to serialize a core image fragment? 14:48:11 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:48:13 i'm not sure what you mean by "array lispobj header" 14:48:25 The issue you're going to run into with that is relocation. 14:48:46 uh, it's just a big lisp object that my program builds, not necessarily in a saved image, if that's what you mean 14:49:15 yeah right now, i end up basically assigning an index to every part of the object (each atom and each cons) 14:49:20 and then writing them into file in index order 14:49:21 clop2: I don't see how the serialization requirement implies creating conses and filling them in. 14:49:46 so i can read them back in by just fililng in the array, and each "cons" is just two integers in the file, that says the indexes of the objects to cons together 14:49:49 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176152700.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:49:49 (there is no circularity) 14:49:50 I guess I'm thinking you're optimizing for -load- speed. 14:49:57 right, load speed is what i really care about 14:50:15 And the fastest way to load such an object is mmap(). 14:50:19 so i was imagining that maybe i could somehow be reading in the atoms while i was building the conses 14:50:26 yep, i'm using mmap to read the file 14:50:28 -If- you can persuade mmap() and the GC to not kill each other. 14:50:42 but i still have to interpret its bytes as the object somehow 14:51:16 Well, the ideal for this would be for the octets to be the normal in-memory representation of the object in the first place. 14:52:15 Do a relocation pass over it, and have some scheme for fixing up references to things outside the fragment, and you're basically set, so long as the GC doesn't cause problems. 14:52:41 yeah, that sounds right i guess, though it'd probably be lower level than ordinary lisp somehow 14:52:45 Horribly implementation-dependent, of course, and may not be possible for your implementation or actual application. 14:52:54 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 14:52:58 -!- milaz [n=user@77.106.223.233] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:53:10 Are you going to want to be able to un-mmap() this memory space after a while? 14:53:26 'cause that could cause problems if there are dangling references to it. 14:53:29 that wouldn't really be necessary 14:53:40 it pretty much gets loaded and stays loaded, for my application 14:54:03 masonium [n=mason@col-69-141.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp 14:54:03 -!- girzel` [n=user@123.121.215.229] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:54:14 Another option might be to just dump a core containing the data already loaded. 14:54:15 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:54:27 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-109-241.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:54:31 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:54:45 right 14:55:09 in this case there are, i guess, many different possible serialized files, and i want to be able to load any one of them (but not more than one) at will 14:55:19 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:55:37 so separate images is somewhat difficult just because of building them all and managing them... (that's actually what we have going right now) 14:58:56 Mmm... Well, if you're using ccl, I'd ask on a more ccl-focussed forum if they have any ideas. 15:00:00 rgr, sounds like that's what i'll need to do if i want to go down "into the dirt" :) 15:01:32 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-84-210.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 15:02:41 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.233.227] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:05:39 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:06:25 So, I think the easiest way to "block" so-called "blockable signals" on win32 is to have a flag in the per-thread interrupt_data area for them. 15:07:10 Hrm. 15:07:27 There may have to be some cleverness around unblocking them, though. 15:11:35 vishsingh [n=vsingh@CPE0014bf4af6c2-CM000a739caee2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:11:35 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-3-147.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:12:20 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-35-79.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:16:00 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 15:17:49 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.73.191] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:25:08 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:25:56 Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.73.191] has joined #lisp 15:28:43 Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-66-160.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:29:01 -!- emmy [n=em@cpe-98-14-154-71.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:30:12 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.7.30] has joined #lisp 15:31:02 -!- SandGorgon_ [n=OmNomNom@122.162.141.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:31:36 SandGorgon_ [n=OmNomNom@122.173.207.169] has joined #lisp 15:34:11 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:35:45 hsaliak_ [n=chatzill@cm34.sigma72.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:36:03 Okay, as near as I can tell, cygwin won't send anything even remotely resembling a SIGINT to a non-cygwin application via kill(2). 15:36:29 SIGINT, of course, being the one case where there's a plausible Right Thing to do. 15:38:20 This makes NT emacs an even saner choice for running SLIME with SBCL/Win32 than it was before. 15:41:24 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp060.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:41:27 tsuru [n=user@c-76-22-154-126.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:18 kylesmith [n=jfennick@c-76-125-248-34.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:16 -!- hsaliak_ [n=chatzill@cm34.sigma72.maxonline.com.sg] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [SeaMonkey 2.0b2/20090903171148]"] 15:48:02 I _heart_ Montezuma 15:48:52 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.7.30] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:49:03 ejs1 [n=eugen@128-96-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:59 sellout: i got some ical spam from you 15:51:22 for unit conversion, I decided to encode all units in this manner $(value (designator measurement)) like (4 (weight :grams)) and (10 (money :usd)) :-) 15:51:54 kicks ass for i18n 15:54:54 Hrm. 500 euros. Still not worth my time, but is a bit more likely. 15:55:29 threads on win32, was it? 15:55:33 Yeah. 15:55:45 -!- macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:55:47 must be really nasty. 15:55:52 Some of the supporting issues are more likely at this point, but... 15:55:55 (from your comments) 15:56:12 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:56:31 Xach: Ah crap ... iCal assumes that if you add attendees to an event, you want to send them invites. Moving the Lisp meeting from Mon to Wed triggered an update. Sorry. 15:56:40 Well, we could go the ccl route of using those badly-documented / undocumented segment selector APIs, which would mean less compiler hacking, but... 15:57:55 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 16:01:44 sellout: odd that it invited me to events occurring over a year ago 16:02:53 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:04:31 Xach: Probably something weird like because I never sent an invite for any Lisp meeting, it sent invites for _all_ of them. 16:05:55 -!- kylesmith [n=jfennick@c-76-125-248-34.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has left #lisp 16:06:22 -!- ejs [n=eugen@128-96-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:08:43 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-7-130.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:27 fxr [n=user@a.mx.core.gen.tr] has joined #lisp 16:10:57 Dellort [i=55c89673@gateway/web/freenode/x-hjlptnpstzgayqdf] has joined #lisp 16:11:17 (STUPID (STUPID(STUPID))) 16:11:35 -!- Dellort [i=55c89673@gateway/web/freenode/x-hjlptnpstzgayqdf] has left #lisp 16:11:46 what's that? 16:12:05 Troll. 16:14:37 there should be a name for trolls that are so pathetic at trolling that you want to pat them on the head 16:14:53 Rugrats? 16:15:12 that was a boring troll. 16:16:07 nyef: kenny wannabies ? 16:18:09 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-2-163.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:18:09 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 16:18:21 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:14 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:31:29 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-29-142.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:44 jeti [n=jeti@p548ECCDA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:52 htk__ [n=htk___@188.3.224.74] has joined #lisp 16:32:36 -!- jeti [n=jeti@p548ECCDA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:33:04 -!- htk__ is now known as htk_ 16:33:52 TDT [n=dthole@254.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:07 -!- SandGorgon_ [n=OmNomNom@122.173.207.169] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:34:41 rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:36:23 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:41:28 jeti [n=jeti@p548ECCDA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:38 Morning, folks. 16:42:07 Hello gigamonkey. 16:42:13 Good afternoon ;) 16:42:26 milanj [n=milan@93.87.150.127] has joined #lisp 16:42:31 Moe111 [n=Moe111@modemcable067.226-21-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:42:38 multi tiered question coming up: 16:42:54 is there a way to have HTML-Template use lazy evaluation in the data list? 16:43:06 e.g. something like (:foo #'bar) 16:43:08 lispm [n=joswig@e177123177.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:43:19 which means that when :foo is used for the first time, it calls #'bar 16:43:38 check out the convert-tag-to-string-list method in cl-who 16:43:45 gigamonkey: Care to write a retrospection blog posting about the days of sales? 16:43:46 ..you can define your own methods 16:44:03 mcspiff [n=user@142.177.77.73] has joined #lisp 16:44:06 lnostdal: you answering me? 16:44:16 oh, HTML-TEMPLATE; the library? .. nvm. then 16:44:25 yes. 16:44:26 tcr: first I've got to write a blog about the Spolsky/Uncle Bob Martin spat. 16:44:34 i thought you meant cl-who, Moe111 16:44:42 alright, second question would then be: how would I express it 'properly' under lisp? 16:44:49 bgs100 [n=ian@h155.176.130.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:02 I mean, (:foo 'bar) looks more like it means I want 'bar not the expansion of 'bar 16:45:09 gigamonkey: What's the issue? 16:45:23 so, if I wanted to make this addition to HTML-Template, what would the lispiest way of expressing this idiom be? 16:45:27 if I wanted to use loop for something like (loop for var = something while (some-condition) summing var)...basically I want the loop to stop when condition fails, and return the summed values. My loop-fu is weak 16:46:10 tcr: No big issue. Basically Spolsky said some stuff based on the Zawinski interview and then Uncle Bob got mad. And I think I can provide some interesting perspective from some other things Zawinski and other people in the book said. 16:46:25 mcspiff: Well that's how you'd write it 16:46:44 |male_terran| [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:51 Who's Uncle Bob? 16:47:03 -!- male_terran [n=KVIrc@ip98-162-161-191.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:47:32 A moderately prominent consultant/writer type. 16:47:33 tcr: d'oh, I didn't know loop supported while. That was just wishful pseudo-code i thought 16:48:03 Bah, I've almost totally stopped reading computing-related news 16:48:10 mcspiff: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html 16:48:27 tcr: yeah. I hear you. 16:48:37 jeti: exactly what I needed. sometimes clhs makes the eyes glaze over... 16:48:56 Me too mostly. But obviously I follow stuff resulting from my book. 16:50:05 It's not that I wouldn't like. I used to do so very extensively in past, but nowadays I hack instead 16:50:43 tcr: probably a much better plan. 16:51:03 Just wait until someone writes a good book on the topic and then buy that. ;-) 16:51:59 gigamonkey: I'm not sure it's so much better as I won't broaden my horizon this way 16:52:52 [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.85.128] has joined #lisp 16:53:02 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-222-205.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:53:03 and the more I hack, the bigger the todo stack becomes :/ 16:56:31 tcr: so the semi on-topic summary of C@W sales for this channel is that it's so far spent 225 hours with a Sales Rank equal to or better than the best sales rank PCL had for one hour. 16:59:26 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:59:43 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.207.169] has joined #lisp 17:00:47 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 17:03:07 Heh. http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9nipa/joel_on_software_the_duct_tape_programmer/c0dm78o 17:03:27 vsync_ [n=vsync@BLISTER.QUADIUM.NET] has joined #lisp 17:03:53 -!- vsync [n=vsync@BLISTER.QUADIUM.NET] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:04:18 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@128-96-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:04:44 mathrick [n=mathrick@users172.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:04:48 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.177.77.73] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:04:53 mcspiff` [n=user@drmons0501w-142177077073.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:52 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-98-108.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:07:49 gigamonkey: that's funny 17:12:10 -!- jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:14:42 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.198.122] has joined #lisp 17:14:55 Heh. "Shipping is a feature. A really important feature. Your product must have it." -- I guess this explains UPS and FedEx, huh? 17:19:42 hmm..I wonder if 3 monitors (2 comps, using Synergy) is enough..or should I hook up more :) 17:22:12 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-29-142.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Gotta restart emacs."] 17:25:02 tolstoy [n=tolstoy@199.223.122.12] has joined #lisp 17:26:33 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-29-142.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:38 -!- DeusExPikachu [i=pikachu@anapnea.net] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:26:38 -!- sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:26:38 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:26:38 -!- albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:28:56 DeusExPikachu [i=pikachu@anapnea.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:56 albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #lisp 17:28:56 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has joined #lisp 17:28:56 sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:29:18 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:30:39 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B24F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:52 winter is soon here; you'll need the heat anyways 17:36:29 ejs [n=eugen@91-216-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:40 milanj- [n=milan@93.86.187.223] has joined #lisp 17:37:53 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 17:37:57 -!- DeusExPikachu [i=pikachu@anapnea.net] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:57 -!- sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:57 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:37:57 -!- albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:38:42 lnostdal: very true, I keep this house extremely cold. 17:39:01 Own personal space heaters that actually have a pretty decent purpose :) 17:40:06 DeusExPikachu [i=pikachu@anapnea.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:06 albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #lisp 17:40:06 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has joined #lisp 17:40:06 sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:40:43 -!- ejs [n=eugen@91-216-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:40:58 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 17:43:34 -!- tolstoy [n=tolstoy@199.223.122.12] has quit [] 17:44:21 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441929.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 17:45:02 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:45:16 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.150.127] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:47:40 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:49:20 -!- DeusExPikachu [i=pikachu@anapnea.net] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 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irc.freenode.net] 18:10:48 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:10:48 -!- albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has quit [holmes.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:10:56 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:11 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:02 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users172.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:15:33 -!- [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.85.128] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:16:42 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:16:49 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:17:03 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:23:30 xan-afk_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:26:11 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:31:58 -!- antgreen [n=user@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM0018c0b3c272.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:36:10 -!- xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:36:24 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 18:36:29 Greetings. 18:41:44 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-151.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 18:42:21 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-222-205.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:41 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 18:45:01 schemer999 [n=tmilford@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:48:17 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:49:04 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:54:08 [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.85.128] has joined #lisp 18:56:11 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-161-71-17.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["Gone today, here tomorrow."] 18:56:13 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177123177.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 18:57:13 -!- Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-66-160.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 18:57:46 this looks good http://repo.or.cz/w/cl-zmq.git 18:59:22 heya tmh 19:00:11 prip [n=_prip@host136-121-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:00:38 -!- mcspiff` [n=user@drmons0501w-142177077073.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:01:10 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:23 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@91-115-30-128.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:02:10 -!- schemer999 [n=tmilford@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 19:02:24 Hey fusss, it's a little quiet in here. 19:02:41 yeah, it's 5AM 19:03:16 how do I create a new cliki page? 19:03:40 fusss: I think there should be a new page link somewhere, let me look. 19:03:53 i see it but it just goes to the index 19:04:34 When I click it, I get a pop-up window for the page title. 19:05:04 wchogg [n=wchogg@host-250-93.pubnet.pdx.edu] has joined #lisp 19:05:46 it uses javascript, which i have disabled 19:05:59 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:40 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@93.82.15.107] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:10:01 good night 19:11:10 nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has joined #lisp 19:11:30 emma [n=4617edb3@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-rbncuyedhwrnnzif] has joined #lisp 19:11:31 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@hmbg-4d06ed0a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:14:09 -!- emma [n=4617edb3@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-rbncuyedhwrnnzif] has left #lisp 19:19:00 younder [n=jpthing@113.14.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:20:36 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-179-43.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:22:36 emma [n=4617edb3@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-rbncuyedhwrnnzif] has joined #lisp 19:22:48 Hi guys. 19:23:13 I am starting a study group (to meet here on Freenode once a week) to work through SICP . If anyone would like to join us, our first meeting is to be in about 7 minutes. 19:23:31 -!- salva [n=salva@91.117.11.105] has quit [] 19:24:42 Unfortunately, I don't have the time to participate, but looks good. Are you meeting in #lisp or a dedicated channel? 19:25:26 Surely not here 19:26:23 A dedicated channel. ##club-classroom 19:26:27 kwertii [n=kwertii@67.180.202.175] has joined #lisp 19:27:04 Ok, just checking. Maybe I'll lurk. Hmm, I still don't have a dead-tree copy. Anyway. 19:27:16 schemer999 [n=tmilford@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:27:37 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:28:56 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 19:29:03 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:33:07 nyef [n=nyef@static-64-222-188-16.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:57 Guess I'm not as disconnected as I thought I'd be this afternoon. 19:34:25 -!- tolstoy [n=tolstoy@199.223.122.12] has left #lisp 19:35:25 mcspiff` [n=user@drmons0501w-142177077073.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:25 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:35:29 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:37:01 SimonH [n=SimonH@78.148.132.114] has joined #lisp 19:38:17 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.73.191] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:43:34 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:49:43 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:50:49 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.207.169] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:51:27 -!- schemer999 [n=tmilford@cpe-76-90-137-46.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 19:52:29 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:05 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.207.169] has joined #lisp 19:55:07 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-222-205.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:57:59 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-97-60.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:58:05 tcr: okay, thanks 19:59:57 lichtblau: A file devoted to readtable setup has been my experience. 20:00:10 ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 20:00:14 Iirc, common-qt used to do the same? 20:02:41 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441929.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:03:23 [Jackal_] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.84.238] has joined #lisp 20:03:37 Yes, CommonQt does it that way. In Hemlock I had a file that needed both the hemlock and qt tables, so I just put a defreadtable for this file at the top. Now that I know it's expected behaviour and what the workaround is, it's not an issue. 20:04:48 In other news, kdebindings/smoke with its new generator is now buildable nearly without hassle on Windows. CommonQt/windows should be easier to build in the future. 20:05:12 (Of course, at the moment nothing -actually- works... It compiles though!) 20:05:15 I'm pretty much finished with named-readtables now and I'll do a public release in a few days. I'm waiting for ACL support to respond to a bug report. 20:05:33 -!- [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.85.128] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:06:23 QTHemlock is way uber-cool. If only you started that two years ago! 20:07:36 I want to finish some outstanding issues in Slime and then turn my back on it in 2010. :) 20:07:55 well, many regulars from this very channel here have worked on Portable Hemlock in the past. I'm just carrying the torch. 20:08:11 tcr: have ACL been good to your support requests? they newer were with my usocket requests (they responded nicely, but effectively the answer was useless) 20:08:51 tcr: turn your back on Slime because it's "done"? 20:11:15 ehu: I reported a bug in DEFINE-METHOD-COMBINATION which was fixed rather promptly (the bug would be triggered by a prominent example in the CLHS) 20:11:33 ok. that's very nice. 20:11:49 -!- SimonH [n=SimonH@78.148.132.114] has left #lisp 20:11:52 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.198.122] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 20:13:23 I've turned to the support for a few other things, then overall I'm quite pleased with the responsiveness. Same goes to Clozure. It's just a difference if you have a few people working full-time on a project. 20:13:52 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-98-108.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:13:59 OTOH, they may now that I'm associated with a paying customer 20:14:02 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 20:14:17 and they pay a lot from what I know :) 20:16:21 They responded quite well when I was the paying customer, that's true. however, their answers usually meant I needed a license with a different price tag. 20:16:25 heh. 20:16:43 Huh? 20:17:49 I used the professional edition first. Then, when I said I wanted the ability to read back binary representations of my memory state, I needed to buy the Enterprise version. 20:17:59 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 20:18:01 albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #lisp 20:18:06 DeusExPikachu [i=pikachu@89.16.178.89] has joined #lisp 20:18:15 that was a bit too much for a 6-user license (and relatively "simple" everyday use) 20:18:15 sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:23:28 I hope they acknowledge the bug as I haven't found a way to work around it. 20:23:57 There provide a getter function to their readtable's dispatch tables, but no setf function 20:24:28 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:51 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 20:25:56 ok. that's difficult. 20:26:32 their reader derives from cmucl sources, btw :) 20:26:55 nice detail :-) 20:27:17 or some precursor perhaps 20:27:35 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 20:27:59 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.168.65] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:27:59 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 20:28:22 ok. I'm off to the other pc. 20:28:23 later. 20:29:29 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@77-21-138-135-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:29:29 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 20:30:05 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.168.65] has joined #lisp 20:33:20 emmy [n=4617edb3@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-bafbwbdxxukaovjd] has joined #lisp 20:33:27 named-readtables; these will avoid potential clashes etc.? .. i should probably just google this 20:33:49 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 20:33:55 -!- emma [n=4617edb3@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-rbncuyedhwrnnzif] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:34:00 -!- emmy is now known as emma 20:34:33 lnostdal: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/named-readtables.html 20:35:43 -!- kwertii [n=kwertii@67.180.202.175] has quit [] 20:37:03 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 20:37:13 Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:52 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-151.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:49:42 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:54 blandest [n=user@79.112.99.50] has joined #lisp 20:51:22 What a piece of shit LispWorks is under Linux! 20:51:42 thank god we have SBCL, CCL, etc. 20:51:46 I'd say "so use SBCL instead", but... Entirely not worth the argument. 20:51:58 No GTK or KDE, no Motif.. 20:52:03 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-101-56.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:52:19 No Motif? Surely you're mistaken. 20:52:32 No mouse-wheel support, no MDI. 20:52:42 maybe younder objects to these libraries not being built into the impl. 20:52:50 thm: It is in Motif 20:52:55 "no mouse-wheel support?" 20:52:57 really? 20:52:58 :P 20:53:14 really! 20:53:27 tmh: That is my point, it requires Motif. 20:53:32 that's like saying C++ doesn't support google 20:53:38 it doesn't even begin to make sense 20:53:51 younder seldom does 20:53:55 *younder: see above where I appear to talk to myself 20:54:30 I agree that the Motif version of Lispworks is not eally pleasurable to work with 20:54:43 Kind of like Emacs 20 (21?) 20:54:46 Well openMotif can be installed under any Linux. It just looks like shit and it's key-binding are not as expected. 20:55:17 It pissed me off to the point where I wouldn't use it. 20:56:35 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 20:56:55 Uhm, then, like, don't use it? 20:57:04 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@43-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:57:18 That was supposed to be: No GTK or KDE, but Motif.. 20:58:04 i recall Gtk+ being mentioned wrt. LW and the new version 6 .. don't know if it applies to the environment though 20:58:15 Admittedly I am old enough to remember Athena widgets and Xt. 20:59:01 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-101-56.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:59:46 As it is i ended up writing my UI under Python and running a Lisp server to do the processing. 21:00:42 (I recommend Wings iDE, Glade and GTK. They worked ...) 21:02:11 ... I was using Xt and Xaw as recently as seven or eight years ago, I think. 21:02:30 And they are a -vast- improvement over some of their successors. 21:02:31 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:07 alexbobp [n=alex@66.112.249.119] has joined #lisp 21:06:56 nyef: That is so 80's 21:07:25 ... Didn't I just say late 90's or early 00's? 21:07:50 Indeed the tiled window manager never got many votes. 21:08:00 nyef: You did. 21:08:12 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-123.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:08:13 /o\ 21:08:16 -!- ruediger_ is now known as ruediger 21:08:26 By which time it was outdated. 21:08:50 Yet -still- an improvement on its successors. 21:09:03 beach: are you still here? 21:09:33 GTK is way better, so is KDE. At least in my opinion. 21:09:53 younder: and still, the concept of X destroys it all 21:10:16 Not at all. 21:10:45 madnificent: Get a copy of Ubuntu.. 21:11:09 younder: I have ubuntu running on one machine... the experience of the user interface is not extremely responsive 21:11:23 ? 21:11:36 younder: I'm only saying this after trying out haiku though... it feels to me like user interfaces could be far more responsive 21:11:47 Mm, BeOS. The old dream. 21:12:11 Mm, BeOS. WTF were they smoking when they came up with those APIs? 21:12:21 younder: perhaps linux does really deserve to throw X away and start over on that part... no matter how big of an effort it really is 21:12:28 is_computer_on_fire()? BHandler/BLooper? 21:12:48 nyef: were the APIs that bad? 21:13:13 I turn off the the maximum animated features, mostly because I find them annoying. But the could inprove the 'response' time, if you have a slow graphics card. 21:13:29 younder: think on a whole different level of speed :) 21:13:30 madnificent: Yes. "Pervasive multithreading" was marketing speak for "you can't actually do -anything- useful without a ton of threads because we don't actually have non-blocking APIs." 21:13:42 madnificent: You want a mac! 21:13:47 younder: NO 21:13:52 lol 21:13:59 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.50.83] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:14:00 theres no pleasing you 21:14:04 *nyef* wants a mac. Running system 6.0.7. 21:14:15 nyef, on the other hand, things were pretty snappy. (unless you got a deadlock in your app) 21:14:24 younder: really haiku runs faster on my notebook (an ULV) than linux GUIs do on my phenom x4 21:14:38 tic: Yeah, I know. And I was impressed at how well the media player ran on a p133. 21:14:57 nyef, and there are other aspects of BeOS that are nice, such as the modular kernel. Which, I guess, is almost the same in Linux nowadays. 21:15:11 nyef: in case of a lisp, couldn't that be made less complicated for the developer? 21:15:27 nyef, indeed. Haven't run it on anything slower than iP166 though. But yup, snappy. Alas, no SBCL. Nor much of anything, at least pre-BONE and proper select(). 21:15:33 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:15:57 -!- mcspiff` [n=user@drmons0501w-142177077073.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:15:59 and perhaps ecl could run on it? (don't know how well it integrates in a C++ environment) 21:16:00 mcspiff` [n=user@drmons0501w-142177077073.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:22 anything ANSI-ish C that builds on egcs-1.1/gcc-2.95 is ok 21:16:39 Wonder how much work it'd be to port SBCL to Haiku. 21:16:58 Haiku seems to be POSIX compliant 21:17:23 so is OS X, and from what I understand that port was not trivial. 21:17:25 wrt. X; is it not a matter of just bypassing it where/when needed? .. i think clutter does this 21:17:40 Win32 -claims- to be POSIX compliant. 21:17:48 point taken 21:18:09 nyef, equally bad in Vista and 7? 21:18:33 nyef: do they really still claim that? I thought they dropped that claim since winnt 3.5 or 4 21:18:41 <[Jackal_]> It only has a POSIX "subsystem" and a rudimentary one at that. 21:18:48 Well, given that my current problem is asynchronous interrupts (signals), I'd really not want to see any "improvement", as it'd make things harder. 21:19:31 Ubuntu does deadlock. So from time to time you have to wait 10 seconds to the demon resolves it. 21:20:01 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:20:36 seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:39 <[Jackal_]> Could SBCL use pthreads on Win32? http://sourceware.org/pthreads-win32/ 21:21:17 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 21:21:21 It is badly unlikely. 21:22:23 Nope. pthread_kill() is useless in that, and we need it. 21:22:29 -!- Blaay [i=Blay@BSN-142-37-75.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [] 21:22:37 By the way a LispWorks version with non-preemptive multi-threading support on multiple cores is is beta. 21:23:11 ... M:N threading with CPU affinity over M cores? 21:23:47 I have to ask, why not go all the way once you have that much 21:23:48 ? 21:23:59 The old versions would run multiple threads but only on one core. 21:24:22 ... Are you sure it's non-preemptive, then? 21:25:20 It uses OS threads. Not green if that is what you mean nyef. 21:25:57 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-179-43.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:26:27 I'm now frightened at the thought of scheduling multiple OS threads non-preemptively on a single core, as that means only running one of the threads at a time, which sounds like a nightmare. 21:26:40 Also means that the same arrangement over multiple cores is pointless. 21:26:49 exactly 21:27:34 But you would need spin-lock's on your GC 21:27:53 Failing to see the requirement here... 21:28:17 Okay, that's p-a, sigint, and the basic mechanism for forcing a thread to run a handler dealt with... That leaves without-gcing, without-interrupts, interrupt-thread, and stop-for-gc to figure out. 21:28:21 -!- LiamH [n=healy@pool-151-200-238-90.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:28:29 LiamH [n=healy@pool-151-200-238-90.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:32 It got LispWorks and ACL working for quite a while.. 21:33:15 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:34:58 -!- nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has quit ["Anyone can be smart; a genius is someone who does something amazing with their intelligence."] 21:35:46 Bachonasair [n=baconize@17-173-223-66.gci.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:34 -!- Bachonasair is now known as Baconizer 21:37:08 Anyhow just released a new backup utillity. 21:37:52 (Mostly written in Python...) 21:39:54 Probably explains why I never received prime time in Common-Lisp. I am a multi-paradigm man.. 21:40:19 whatever.. (I tried..) 21:41:50 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:42:12 By the way I was just informed that the 6.0 version of LispWorks (now in beta) will come with Gtk+ support. 21:43:18 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:43:29 kwertii [n=kwertii@67.180.202.175] has joined #lisp 21:43:38 http://www.lispworks.com/news/index.html#lw60beta 21:43:52 nyef: what are you developing on? 21:44:00 nyef: I mean: which projects do you work on? 21:44:11 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441929.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 21:44:31 madnificent: Right now I'm poking at SBCL, trying to figure out how to get it to do something reasonable with C-c on Win32. 21:45:01 ah, an sbcl dev 21:45:07 but windows :( 21:45:48 Just because windows is the bastard stepchild doesn't mean it doesn't need some love. 21:46:15 windows is better than it's reputation 21:46:34 Think of the consequences: It might become so embittered against the world that it decides to try to take over! 21:46:36 quite stable and secure actually 21:46:58 (Quite stable and secure, so long as you never, ever, hook it up to the internet.) 21:48:13 Said the idiot who screwed up his Ubuntu installation with a bogus GTK install.. 21:48:36 Will take me a week to figure it out... 21:48:52 That must have been you, 'cause I'm fairly certain that I haven't screwed up an Ubuntu install that way yet. 21:49:25 Well I buidt GTK 2.4 from source. 21:49:31 <[Jackal_]> Any operating system can be as secure as you want it to be. It's the Windows userbase that makes it look worse. 21:49:43 [Jackal_]: true 21:49:51 [Jackal_]: It is huge 21:50:22 The malicious javascript and flash stuff out there doesn't help, though. 21:50:44 -!- BACOON [n=baconize@unaffiliated/baconizer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:51:24 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CEF6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:52:16 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:52:45 <[Jackal_]> I have always kept a machine dedicated to Windows and it never let me down. Of course, the number of "What is a firewall?" people far surpasses the number of regular Linux desktop users. Which is what I consider an error on Microsoft's part at educating people. Marketing alone doesn't help. 21:53:41 I've had malware disable the windows firewall and the warning messages for having it disabled before. 21:54:00 There's stuff out there that actively targets firewall software. 21:54:02 sure, go obscure 21:54:24 nyef: that's nice of you :) 21:54:27 Hardly that obscure. 21:55:13 opera instead on outlook and $!, avast instead of Norton.. 21:55:20 <[Jackal_]> Not all firewalls come with self-protection, I agree. 21:55:21 nyef: windows would be much more secure if it was configured differently by default. However, it won't be, because it would break users :D 21:55:23 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:55:38 *younder* hates Internet explorer.. 21:56:00 p_l: I'm not arguing that. But sometimes there's just stuff that gets through even the savvy people's defences. 21:56:01 younder: I found IE8 quite good 21:56:11 It is a LOT better 21:56:12 nyef: fully securing it would be a chore, as well 21:56:14 *nyef* found IE6 to be a job requirement. 21:56:21 nyef: oh the horror 21:56:29 Personally I've gone Chrome 21:56:41 *p_l* vendor-locked himself into Firefox 21:56:41 I'll say. I have a VM with -just- an IE6 XP. 21:56:57 Love that browser 21:57:13 nyef: even MS prays that IE6 will drop dead 21:57:15 It's not subject to malware because it only ever goes to one website, and that one doesn't do anything nasty. 21:57:36 p_l: It won't until there's no software left that requires it. 21:57:40 p_l: it's fairly good... yet it still doesn't make me trust it's origin. From IE5 onward, its origin has tried to fsck the internet over in any way it could. Even leading to people embracing an insane plugin from macromedia for its consistency 22:02:08 madnificent: I heard that even IE team wants IE6 to die xDD 22:03:54 p_l: the team doesn't consist of those that let the team work 22:03:59 <[Jackal_]> They learned it the hard way. You must support evil once you've spawned it. 22:04:20 IE6 is MS's best weapon in the war against Google. 22:04:35 for them, it is the perfect road: tell everyone that IE is evil (because it is) and try to create as many things as possible to support. 'We don't force our users to install it' 22:05:28 and as long as a lot of large companies have WinXP with IE6 as their default desktop it won't die. 22:05:39 the best war against google is non-compliance, in any form... they'll only have given us consistency after 6 years (at the least). I'll wait for a stabile environment before I start backing them up 22:06:29 sigh, the browser war left primarily MS (and their greed ) as a victim 22:06:39 danlei [n=user@pD9E2CEF6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:40 i like this; http://blog.chromium.org/2009/09/introducing-google-chrome-frame.html .. it does not require admin rights to install 22:07:06 lnostdal: guess ho wants you not to install it 22:07:26 yeah, i saw MS's response .. hilarious 22:08:16 <[Jackal_]> I overheard a rather interesting conversation in office the other day. One was eloquently describing Google as an input engine for some secret AI research headed by Norvig in an underground facility. ;> 22:08:33 Inostdal: I find development is best in Firefox with firebug. 22:08:42 lnostdal: still they are killing consistency... it doesn't work. You can't shout "we love standards" and then try not to embrace them 22:08:52 younder: agreed 22:09:10 But I try to test it in as many browsers as possible. 22:09:56 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:10:16 PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 22:12:23 yeah, same, younder 22:12:26 really looking forward to Firefox 4 .. i think 3.7 has plugins in separate processes, so that's one step 22:14:45 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:21:44 -!- masonium [n=mason@col-69-141.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:25:20 Dawgmatix [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:07 -!- emma [n=4617edb3@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-bafbwbdxxukaovjd] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:28:00 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:33:50 hypnosis [n=hypnosis@unaffiliated/hypnosis] has joined #lisp 22:33:55 Lemurian_ [n=lemurian@unaffiliated/lemurian] has joined #lisp 22:33:58 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CEF6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:34:02 can we talk about Scheme in here? 22:34:04 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@modemcable067.226-21-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:34:10 or is that outlawed 22:34:17 try #scheme 22:34:54 Lemurian_: I think there are still some people in here who think Scheme is not really a Lisp 22:35:18 Makoryu: why not 22:35:34 *an ancient can of worms comes undone* 22:35:40 wasn't Clisp based off of Scheme? 22:36:10 Lemurian_: You mean Common Lisp (the Lisp dialect) or CLISP (an implementation of Common Lisp)? 22:36:23 in either case, no 22:36:35 Common Lisp is newer than Scheme but that doesn't mean it was based on Scheme 22:37:02 Sceeme is a Lisp! 22:37:11 Makoryu: why isn't scheme a lisp 22:37:12 Though some Scheme features did find their way into CL... But I don't know the history of Lisp in enough detail to say which ones 22:37:17 or why wouldn't it be 22:37:36 CL got it lexical var's from Scheeme. 22:37:57 Lemurian_: I dunno man, people are weird and like to nitpick. But at a guess, Scheme relies a lot more on functional programming than on macros, and the macro system is designed to be safe rather than easy to use 22:38:33 Though mostly it based on Maclisp (nothing to do with machintosh or apple) 22:38:38 And that's a bit of a departure from usual Lisp style, which handles certain problems in a completely different way from Scheme 22:40:49 The big difference in that Scheeme supports tail recursion. While in CL it's optional (and not encuraged) 22:41:04 Excepting Scheme's call/cc and CL's condition system, Scheme and CL are pretty equivalent in my eyes 22:41:23 i didnt see the memo on tail recursion not being encouraged. 22:41:29 Don't forget CLOS 22:41:40 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.207.169] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:41:40 scheme is different enough that its users have their own identity as a group 22:41:48 and usually don't mix well with lispers 22:42:13 There are many nice OOP systems for Scheme, including a pretty CLOS-Like Swindle 22:42:14 Yeah. Schemers are minimalists, whereas Lispers, you might say.... 22:42:19 *Makoryu* puts on sunglasses 22:42:22 ...are macrophiles. 22:42:28 heh 22:42:29 Dawgmatix: It comes up from time to time 22:42:33 so... is scheme a lisp or not :) 22:42:38 yes 22:42:42 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229082001.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 22:42:44 Lemurian_: Of course it is. But don't tell anyone I said that. 22:42:51 and can we discuss it in here? 22:42:56 no 22:42:58 no 22:42:59 We already are 22:43:03 Lemurian_: see the topic. 22:43:05 just go to #scheme 22:43:07 why not 22:43:09 With all the SRFI's, Scheme has grown ALOT toward CL featurism over the last 20 years 22:43:17 youre likely to get more informative and accurate answers on scheme 22:43:19 -!- Lemurian_ [n=lemurian@unaffiliated/lemurian] has left #lisp 22:43:32 LISP! 22:43:38 younder: because this channel is about Common Lisp. 22:43:53 many of us at least worked through SICP. 22:43:56 *Makoryu* , curious to see what trouble this "Lemurian_" will get himself into, joins #scheme 22:44:21 younder: it's ok, i think all of us here know a way around scheme 22:44:28 younder: that doesn't make it topical. 22:44:30 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-84-210.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:44:38 just that we have other preferences 22:45:05 <[Jackal_]> Ugh, no! Schemers are those "other preferences". We're normal. ;> 22:45:41 Quick Question: After a long hiatus, I'm returning to CL: CCL + Emacs + SLIME on Windoze in particular 22:46:10 ASDF is completely new to me - is there are really good tutorial on ASDF? 22:46:24 minion: xach-asdf? 22:46:25 xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 22:46:49 Summermute: There are plenty of tutorials on how to put a lot of effort into your .asdf-install file so that ASDF can ignore it 22:46:52 Cool! 22:47:01 *Makoryu* totally isn't bitter 22:47:17 haha 22:47:17 Makoryu: ??? 22:47:29 Summermute: ASDF-INSTALL isn't very liked ;-) 22:47:31 Makoryu: ASDF != ASDF-Install 22:47:48 I disagree with Xach here though. I thing setting (serial t) to avoid listing all the dependencies is easier. 22:48:15 Is ASDF like a better DEFSYSTEM?? 22:48:22 Summermute: yeah. 22:48:41 It is more portable. 22:48:45 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 22:48:46 luis: Gotcha 22:49:24 Are there web repositories of "ASDF-Install'able" packages? 22:49:44 Summermute: OMG, how long ago did you stop using CL ? 22:49:46 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:49:49 sigh.. sort of.. 22:49:59 Early 1990s 22:50:06 Summermute: asdf-install works in conjunction with cliki.net. Bu I would recommend using clbuild instead. 22:50:07 Though if you are using Linux I suggest CLBuild 22:50:08 Don't laugh :-) 22:50:13 <[Jackal_]> No clbuild for Windows yet. Try LibCL. 22:50:43 Summermute: it should be usable through cygwin/msys 22:50:48 <[Jackal_]> Isn't asdf-install kind of broken on Windows? Issues with tar and all? 22:51:02 minion: tell Summermute about clbuild 22:51:08 clbuild: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 22:51:13 still... 22:51:18 I would suggest LispWorks and Edi Weitz starter pack for windows. 22:51:20 who's gonna fix it? 22:51:35 Summermute: http://common-lisp.net/project/clbuild/ 22:51:41 -!- eno__ [n=eno@70.137.154.237] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:51:41 minion: google clbuild 22:51:47 google clbuild: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 22:51:48 luis: I'll check it out 22:51:50 Guess that doesn't work, eh? 22:52:05 what's LibCL? 22:52:10 http://www.moserware.com/2008/04/towards-moores-law-software-part-3-of-3.html 22:52:13 nyef: do you have any power over minion? 22:52:14 mind-boggling 22:52:27 <[Jackal_]> Weitz's starter-pack borks at package META. Make sure you deselect it. 22:52:33 Where is minion's father (krystof)? 22:52:49 minion's father is chandler, not krystof 22:53:02 sorry 22:53:12 <[Jackal_]> Summermute: http://www.libcl.com 22:53:32 Another package install system? 22:53:33 -!- mcspiff` [n=user@drmons0501w-142177077073.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:53:43 <[Jackal_]> It's still beta and I'm not the maintainer. Don't shoot me if it doesn't work. 22:53:47 -!- milanj- [n=milan@93.86.187.223] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:53:58 http://13-49.blogspot.com/2009/09/distributed-computing-in-lisp-again.html 22:54:01 Summermute: it's more of a distribution. A very recent one. 22:54:11 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 22:54:20 <[Jackal_]> Summermute: It's a self-contained collection of "some" useful packages. 22:54:23 trying lisp development on windows is a good recipe for not liking lisp development imho 22:55:20 asdf doesnt work unless you change the system search function to search a directory for asdf definitions. which is pretty annoying if youre new to lisp. 22:55:26 <[Jackal_]> Scheme has better implementations for Windows. /me ducks! 22:55:57 I have a Linux box, but I'm working on my current project on my relatively tiny Lenovo windoze laptop. 22:56:23 well if you dont intend to use third party libraries then you should be fine 22:56:48 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:57:47 -!- LiamH [n=healy@pool-151-200-238-90.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:57:55 <[Jackal_]> You can always install Debian or any other light-weight distribution on VirtualBox and experiment with clbuild. 22:58:12 i agree - clbuild is the bees knees :) 22:58:24 I'll definitely need a lex/yacc or PackRat parser - or some other decent parsing system 22:58:25 screw clbuild >:( 22:58:29 redblue [i=star@ppp106.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:58:31 -!- jikanter [n=jordan@24-148-12-119.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:58:58 Summermute: there's cl-yacc 22:58:59 jikanter [n=jordan@24-148-12-119.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:12 IIRC that's been around quite a while 22:59:27 and several packrat parsers 22:59:37 Oh good! 22:59:42 fe[nl]ix: Does cl-yacc implement all of yacc in a single macro? >_> 23:00:21 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:46 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:03:42 ?? 23:06:55 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["*bork bork*"] 23:07:34 -!- Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:08:05 I actually wrote a lex/yacc in C. I don't know how else one might implement yacc in CL - the algorithms pretty much need access to all the yacc definition to do their magic. 23:08:40 Makoryu: Meaning, yeah, probably all in one macro. Makes sense to me. 23:11:55 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@host-250-93.pubnet.pdx.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:15:41 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:15:47 last time I used a CL-based yacc-alike (lalr.lisp?) it generated a whacking big function that was more effective as a DoS attack on the compiler than as a parser 23:17:05 but everybody seems to be into PEGs nowadays and I suppose that makes life simple 23:18:40 cl-yacc is somewhat similar. the C parser takes ~15-20 seconds to compile 23:22:21 would be much nicer to interpret the grammar than translate it to lisp methinks 23:22:23 -!- [Jackal_] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.84.238] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:24:04 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:06 stassats: You're asking about the bit where it can't access cliki? 23:25:09 if anyone wants to work on parsers, better error messages (error recovery) in cl-yacc would be way more interesting than compilation speed improvements IMHO 23:25:25 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-29-185.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:26:18 lichtblau: are you using it for some project ? 23:26:19 nyef: yes 23:27:12 stassats: It's on my list to check out "soon", and I suspect the same holds true for chandler. 23:27:29 fe[nl]ix: in plexippus for XPath parsing and in cxml-rng for Relax NG "compact" schema parsing 23:27:35 ok, good to know 23:27:52 jwacs also uses cl-yacc 23:28:15 jeti` [n=jeti@p548EFDFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:45 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:32:46 badeye [n=badeye@63-255-213-130.ip.mcleodusa.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:49 -!- jeti [n=jeti@p548ECCDA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:33:08 where am I allowed to declare special variables? 23:33:37 anywhere DECLARE is allowed 23:33:45 clhs declare 23:33:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_declar.htm 23:34:01 anywhere declaim is allowed 23:34:07 you can also proclaim/declaim them 23:34:26 hmmm, I should definately read up on this 23:42:02 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483EC43.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:44:08 you can declare a variable special in a lexical scope (not globally) if you like 23:45:07 some people think this is a good idea because if you declare a variable special globally, then it is special by default, which might confuse people who thought it was lexical 23:48:39 yCrazyEdd [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 23:48:41 that's what earmuffs are for 23:49:25 -!- hoeq^ [n=hoeq@213-65-76-219-no91.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:49:29 hoeq [n=hoeq@213-65-76-219-no91.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 23:50:19 c|mell: that's what I'm trying to do... but I'm failing somewhere 23:51:06 c|mell: (declare (special *foobar*)) at the top of a function definition (or lambda, let, ...) would give me a lexically bound special variable, correct? 23:51:33 (defun foo () (declare (special *v*))) (let ((*v* 10)) (declare (special *v*)) (foo)) 23:51:49 you need to declare it being special twice? (why?) 23:52:01 <_3b> the declaration only affects that specific binding 23:52:04 how else you gonna know it's special? 23:52:35 something like: (let ((*v* 10)) (declare (special *v*)) (foo)) 23:52:55 that's what stassats said 23:53:14 <_3b> the binding in that LET is special... what happens in FOO is up to the definition of FOO 23:54:10 should (defun bar () (let ((*v* 1)) (declare (special *v*)) (foo))) work? 23:54:25 more powerful example (defun foo (*v*) (values *v* (locally (declare (special *v*)) *v*))) 23:54:34 define "work"? 23:54:35 stassats: ^ I was hinting at something like that, but you're doing a recursive call, which is sub-ideal :) 23:54:54 who's doing a recursive call? 23:55:22 stassats: should *v* be bound when calling the function foo from bar in my example? 23:55:40 stassats: you, you start with defun foo and your last call is (foo) 23:56:06 madnificent: where? 23:56:21 madnificent: yes, *v* will be bound in foo 23:57:23 (defun foo () (declare (special *v*))) (let ((*v* 10)) (declare (special *v*)) (foo)) ;; missing a ) ? 23:57:46 that's two separate forms, as you may see 23:58:01 I may not, as you missed a ) :) 23:58:08 no i didn't 23:58:18 my irc client is emacs, how con i miss a )? 23:58:40 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:58:40 -!- yCrazyEdd is now known as CrazyEddy 23:59:52 stassats: my erc signaled a missing ) for some reason (yikes)