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I have an algorithm which involves a lot of matrix operations. I am trying to optimise this algorithm, and I am finding that 10% of the algorithm's time is spent asking how big arrays are. I am using SBCL. I am finding this rather odd. 01:11:24 The function in question is ARRAY-TOTAL-SIZE. 01:11:27 <_3b> have you declared types appropriately? 01:11:50 clhs array 01:11:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_array.htm 01:11:59 <_3b> (note that that may not mean 'everywhere' depending on optimization settings) 01:12:11 For the important parts yes. 01:12:20 <_3b> or more generally, show us code :) 01:12:22 But I don't see how that is relevant. 01:12:24 mcox: have you declared the size of the arrays? 01:12:38 <_3b> if it knows the size of the array from a declaration, it doesn't have to check 01:13:01 <_3b> if there is a declaration somewhere there shouldn't be, it may check in order to enforce the declaration 01:13:15 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AFFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:13:45 Declaring it doesn't solve the problem, matrix sizes are defined at run time. 01:13:51 checking array sizes should be very cheap, as long as the type is correctly declared otherwise 01:14:12 <_3b> ok, if they vary, then you might need to do something else 01:14:48 <_3b> might even be worth compiling specialized operations at runtime 01:15:20 first: have you compiled the function in question with (optimize speed)? 01:15:34 there shoudn't be any full call to ARRAY-TOTAL-SIZE if the rank of the array was declared. 01:15:35 second: assuming you have, have you looked at all the compiler optimization notes? 01:15:54 third: have you actually fixed all the notes? :-) 01:20:20 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-lhoxkpbuorkypkax] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:21:32 girzel [n=user@123.121.224.249] has joined #lisp 01:22:16 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:22:29 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:13 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:26:15 Ok found out.. Thanks to youall. 01:26:15 sorry found it. 01:26:29 It was declaring the rank. 01:28:50 I couldn't figure out what the compiler was talking about in regards to the let binding of an array (let ((a-array (array-displacement matrix))). I had declared both the matrix and a-array but it still wasn't happy. 01:32:00 isabellf [n=isabellf@bas2-montreal31-1242480105.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:35:06 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-73-100.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:43:40 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit ["night"] 01:44:59 bozBrainz [i=9e8c011c@gateway/web/freenode/x-bhutuqeaqlprkpre] has joined #lisp 01:47:48 -!- bozBrainz [i=9e8c011c@gateway/web/freenode/x-bhutuqeaqlprkpre] has quit [Client Quit] 01:51:27 gonzojive_ [n=red@DN800cf90e.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 01:51:35 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:00 chavo_ [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:04 prxq_ [n=mommer@g228072229.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 01:58:16 -!- prxq [n=mommer@e179202106.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:00:03 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:00:03 -!- ignas_ [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Operation timed out] 02:00:19 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-151-200-238-90.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:42 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-70-226-85-68.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:04:12 -!- isabellf [n=isabellf@bas2-montreal31-1242480105.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["Parti"] 02:05:47 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:52 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:13:29 -!- phf [n=user@host.icnfull.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:18:41 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:18:52 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:19:03 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:09 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:21:03 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 02:21:48 Makoryu` [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:40 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:24:50 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:40 fbrunel [n=fbrunel@24.114.234.35] has joined #lisp 02:26:04 -!- fbrunel [n=fbrunel@24.114.234.35] has quit [Client Quit] 02:27:54 -!- jeti` [n=jeti@p548EFC95.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 02:29:05 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.192.123] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 02:33:07 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:37:59 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-70-226-85-68.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:12 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has left #lisp 02:38:35 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.79.64] has joined #lisp 02:40:47 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.79.64] has quit [Client Quit] 02:43:16 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@95.85.147.195] has joined #lisp 02:43:22 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@95.85.147.195] has quit [Client Quit] 02:43:52 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@95.85.147.195] has joined #lisp 02:43:56 sandin [i=lalalal@195-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:16 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@95.85.147.195] has quit [Client Quit] 02:44:25 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@195-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:27 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@195-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:44:30 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@195-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:03 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@195-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:45:45 -!- sandin [i=lalalal@195-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit ["Cao..."] 02:49:00 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:49:29 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-151-200-238-90.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:51:54 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.79.64] has joined #lisp 02:52:34 pixpop [n=pixpop@76.208.129.200] has joined #lisp 02:53:13 Retardedpope [n=Retarded@c-66-56-9-145.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:48 -!- Aszarsha [n=aszarsha@91-165-133-87.rev.libertysurf.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:54:43 Hi, I'm searching for a function in lisp that will return the position of the highest value in a list. 02:54:56 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@76.208.129.200] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:55:03 clhs max 02:55:03 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_max_m.htm 02:56:24 max will give me the highst value, not the position of the highest value in a list 02:56:37 right? 02:56:47 ah, true 02:56:55 you'll have to roll your own, then 02:59:19 Oh, I heard that if i wanted a function that does x, lisp probably has a function that does that already. It's just a matter of finding it... Maybe that wasn't true... :( 03:00:37 (loop :repeat n :with pos = 0 :with max = 0 :for item :in list :if (> item max) :do (setf pos n max item) :finally (return pos)) or something ... 03:00:59 but, what if there are two items of equal value that also happen to be the highest? 03:01:28 Retardedpope: Right, that isn't true, so you had better use a different language. 03:01:31 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:01:35 [and good morning everyone] 03:01:42 morning beach 03:02:20 beach: I have to use lisp. My professor won't allow me to use anything else... 03:02:29 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-21-32.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:02:47 Sorry to hear that. 03:03:22 beach: don't you like lisp? 03:03:39 Retardedpope: I do. Those remarks where ironic. 03:03:45 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-5-5.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:03:49 lol 03:04:05 (position (reduce #'max list) list) or something like that should work. 03:04:24 (position (apply #'max list) list) 03:04:26 damnit .. 03:04:37 beach beat me, and was more correct 03:05:38 (my LOOP was more efficient though :D) 03:05:49 Retardedpope: note that those examples, while being concise, traverse the list twice 03:06:25 I noticed... 03:06:25 Bah, I am teaching XP at the moment so I use the simplest solution that will do the job. 03:07:00 It works, so thank you :) 03:07:06 No problem. 03:07:09 *p_l* has the urge to compare XP to extreme sports :P 03:07:20 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-33-92-164.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:58 phadthai_ [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:02 Do I have to write my own function if I want to traverse the list just once? 03:08:15 Performance might be an issue 03:09:04 gigamonkeys: Joel Spolskey seems to Really Like C@W. 03:09:07 I'm writing an AI and the faster the code, the deeper the search... 03:09:42 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:10:01 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp100.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 03:10:25 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:11 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@66.11.161.166] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:11:25 Retardedpope: Worry about that later. 03:11:32 gigamonkey:Joel Spolskey seems to Really Like C@W. 03:11:41 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:11:53 wgl: You just said that. 03:11:58 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:12:07 beach: yeah, you're right 03:12:08 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:32 beach: Right. Didn't use the correct spelling. Somehow reminds me of that old joke about the one word language. 03:15:41 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:16 if you want to handle errors that happen in new threads you create, you have to put the error handlers right in that thread, right? 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I think setf is thread-safe, right? 04:29:17 ls 04:29:36 -!- _jason5986 [n=thot@59-105-27-43.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has quit [] 04:31:14 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:31:17 -!- gz_ [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:31:35 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:31:43 gz_ [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:32:19 ok, actually reading the source code gives me faster results. 04:33:09 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:34:19 actually my boss complained this to me, saying that thread-UNSAFE push is unfriendly to users... what's your opinion? 04:34:30 -!- jan247_ [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:35:56 huangjs: why have locks when you're running single-threaded? 04:36:34 I think that thread safe operations should always be clearly marked. 04:37:06 sykopomp: single-threaded? 04:37:32 Zhivago: yeah, but do you think push should be thread-safe by default? 04:37:38 No. 04:37:58 I think you should have thread-safe-push or something for that. 04:38:10 yeah 04:38:12 pretty much 04:38:45 what's the property you think a thread safe push has? 04:38:47 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:38:51 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:39:12 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:39:22 jikanter [n=jordan@24-148-12-119.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:39:22 the head of the list never contains an invalid object? 04:39:48 jsnell: will not miss any value if things were pushed in multiple threads simultaneous, maybe. 04:39:49 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216.80.120.145] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:40:38 ok, what about pop on the list? 04:40:46 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:41:05 pop has similar problems. 04:41:18 compare-and-swap would work nicely for both cases. 04:41:37 I was trying to be all socratic here 04:42:02 jsnell: in what way is pop related here? 04:42:26 it's related in that having just push be thread-safe is completely useless 04:42:33 jsnell: N items in, N items out. 04:42:55 you'd need push and pop to obey the same synchronization protocol to get any safety 04:42:58 jsnell: yeah, that makes sense, but that's just an example. 04:43:14 in fact, you'd need anyone accessing the data structure to obey the same protocol 04:43:16 i mean I was making an example 04:43:45 -!- DeusExPikachu [i=pikachu@anapnea.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:43:45 -!- sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:43:45 -!- albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:43:45 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:44:17 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [] 04:45:19 -!- sciendan [n=dan@c-69-250-212-245.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:45:43 sorry for interpreting the question "is push thread-safe in sbcl?" as being about the operation push as it relates to sbcl 04:45:59 DeusExPikachu [i=pikachu@anapnea.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:59 albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #lisp 04:45:59 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has joined #lisp 04:45:59 sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 04:51:20 -!- pragma_ [n=pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:55:36 wgl: yup. 04:55:52 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan_ 04:56:04 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-109-29.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 05:01:57 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:19 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:32 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@68.126.198.233] has joined #lisp 05:09:55 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-241-154.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:54 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit ["off"] 05:16:11 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:16:51 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.229.166] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:18:31 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 05:19:14 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:19:44 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:20:02 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:20:34 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 05:23:47 Does swank have the ability to create a stream which outputs to an emacs buffer? 05:24:19 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Client Quit] 05:24:20 i.e. (with-open-stream (st (open-emacs-buffer "hello")) (write-string "welcome!" st)) 05:25:13 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:27:40 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-229-28.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:27:59 -!- benny [n=benny@87.122.25.240] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:29:47 rstandy`` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-239-72.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 05:31:34 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:32:22 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:41 -!- Makoryu` [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:32:41 redblue [i=star@ppp011.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 05:32:57 nowhere_man [n=pierre@nsg93-7-88-164-172-1.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 05:33:36 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:35:56 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:36:03 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:36:28 -!- Summermute66 [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:37:29 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 05:37:39 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 05:40:39 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:40:44 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-9-27.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:21 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-7-44.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:42:21 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 05:42:25 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-28-152.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:44:04 -!- rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-230-91.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:47:58 lispm [n=joswig@e177150197.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 05:49:40 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 05:50:02 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 05:50:08 Good morning everyone. 05:51:13 Good Morning. 05:51:25 plage: good morning 05:53:02 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:53:53 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["Be right back. Restarting after update."] 05:54:56 ltriant [n=ltriant@59.167.195.42] has joined #lisp 05:57:54 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-179-95.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:00:18 serichsen [n=harleqin@77.6.196.85] has joined #lisp 06:00:21 good morning 06:00:26 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:00:31 hello serichsen 06:00:55 bonjour plage 06:01:13 What's up? 06:03:39 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:07:43 QinGW3 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:08:50 -!- rstandy`` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-239-72.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:09:17 rstandy`` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-239-72.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 06:09:47 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:10:39 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:11:57 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:12:44 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:59 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@DN800cf90e.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 06:13:13 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-237.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 06:14:03 ASau [n=user@smtp.hosting.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:16:38 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:17:19 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:18:53 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:20:38 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:20:54 hello 06:21:11 anybody know of well documented systems that implement a "plugin" architecture for user extensions, besides Emacs? 06:22:21 fusss: CLIM is an excellent example, where there are a large number of protocols that can be used for user extensions. 06:22:57 i.e. "how to implement a plugin architecture for your application/platform"; integrating third party software under a unified platform that already offers single-signon and authentation, full text search, and a graph of users and their relationship, etc. 06:24:41 plage: CLIM is one example, and for networked applications there are Portlets, including the Apache Pluto portlet container, but WS-* stuff are overspecified 06:25:41 fusss: IM messengers like GAIM often come with a plugin architecture; also desklets 06:26:28 And Emacs' plugin architecture ist mostly tantamount to everything-in-the-same-address-space 06:26:39 ignas_ [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 06:26:53 absolutely not what i want; i have fine-grained security in place 06:26:54 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:26:54 That can only work if you trust your third-party contributors to be first-class citizens 06:26:58 right 06:28:11 so far here is what i have: 06:28:18 fusss: Consider making the plugins run in seperate processes communicating over sockets? 06:28:33 Or something like DBus 06:28:50 tcr: the "plugin" will have to be hosted by the third party developers themselves; this is all json-rpc 06:29:24 Ok 06:29:50 first, i broke the user's records into various chunks of information and gave each chunk a user configurable security setting. 06:30:11 You should definitively spend some time reading about how to grow an API 06:30:39 users see a list of 3rd party applications that consume their records in some manner, and users are able to assign a permission to each pair of (application, record); default is deny. 06:31:24 when the user sees an app they like, they click "add" and they're prompted with a dialog box showing which records of theirs the app consumes and they can choose to allow that. 06:32:20 whenever the user "fires up" the application, the application can request the records it was permitted to use and our data web service checks the permissions and gives it to the app, else it's denied. 06:32:24 simple as that. 06:32:46 what is broken is display integration with the rest of our platform 06:32:47 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:33:30 -!- QinGW3 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:34:01 each application has an icon, description, summary, home URL and various other stuff, but i still have to make the mental connection about what to do about the app display on screen. so far i am firing up a jquery dialogbox that loads a remote iframe .. 06:34:13 if you're dealing with sensitive data, it'd probably also be a good idea to have some third-party security audit 06:34:46 we will have to be HIPAA compliant; even our data center has compliance certificates 06:36:13 not all apps need to fire up a dialog box, and not all apps needs to be 'started', some should run in the background as well .. 06:36:24 i think i am gonna go speak aloud to myself 06:36:30 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit ["off to get a rubber duckie"] 06:40:36 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:44:07 danr [n=dan@c83-254-87-137.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:44:13 how do I write comments in lisp? 06:44:20 elisp, that is 06:44:22 clhs ; 06:44:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dd.htm 06:44:30 ty 06:44:42 see the above -- it has a style guide too, for indenting comments 06:45:41 danr: If you want to comment out an expression you can put #+ignore before it like: (progn #+ignore (print 'ignored) (print 'not-ignored)) 06:46:16 tcr: thanks :) 06:46:32 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 06:46:49 *Adlai* does a (push :ignore *features*) 06:46:51 #-(and) is technically better than #+ignored for reasons that are way too obscure for your at this time. But #+ignore is easier to memorize 06:47:31 And the technical arguments are trumped by de facto practise anyway 06:47:41 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 06:47:57 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229116225.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:49:49 danr: New here? 06:50:17 plage: Yes. I'm just tweaking my emacs a little. I'm not really a lisp programmer 06:50:34 I use Emacs for the Agda-mode 06:51:11 danr: this is mostly not an Emacs channel 06:51:22 lispm: okay. maybe i better scatter off then 06:51:22 most people here use some form of Common Lisp 06:51:41 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-254-89.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:01 don't know, but there might be a channel with more emacs content 06:52:27 people here use emacs to develop Common Lisp, mostly 06:53:08 what are you using lisp for? (as in not why your are using in, rather for what kind of projects) 06:53:39 minion: tell danr about Gsharp 06:53:44 Gsharp: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 06:54:04 minion: are you a bot? 06:54:10 are you a bot: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 06:54:25 yes, but it lacks connection to its wiki database 06:54:28 okay 06:54:31 danr: http://common-lisp.net/project/gsharp/ 06:54:50 that's an A flat 06:54:55 somebody might help minion get his brains back 06:55:05 plage, hello to france 06:55:14 hello lispm 06:55:20 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 06:55:21 daniel__ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:55:24 danr: Only in tempered tuning. 06:56:04 plage: what are the tunings called when they are not the same? and which instruments is this applicable on? 06:56:12 plage: I've always been wondering 06:56:37 danr: I am not sure what the other tuning is called. Perhaps Krystof knows. 06:58:01 enharmonic 06:58:27 danr: I don't know of any instrument with non-tempered tuning, but it is known that musicians who play instruments with arbitrary nots such as violins or fretless bass do not play according to tempered tuning. 06:59:07 plage: intresting 06:59:30 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:00:04 _jason6844 [n=thot@59.105.27.43] has joined #lisp 07:00:05 danr: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_tuning 07:00:54 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:03:10 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-97-60.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:03:23 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:03:27 HET4 [n=diman@80.3.31.126] has joined #lisp 07:04:23 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:04:28 -!- Levenson1 [n=Levenson@92.46.82.89] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:07:15 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 07:09:18 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-33-92-164.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:14:30 -!- emmy [n=em@cpe-98-14-154-71.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:17:34 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 07:18:15 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:21:02 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:21:13 good morning 07:21:17 hello mvilleneuve 07:21:47 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-251.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:22:54 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:24:19 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-237.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:25:26 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-237.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 07:27:07 -!- danr [n=dan@c83-254-87-137.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 07:27:16 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-4ae470d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:27:54 freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 07:28:02 -!- rstandy`` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-239-72.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:28:42 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:29:36 -!- _jason6844 [n=thot@59.105.27.43] has quit [] 07:31:19 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:31:24 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 07:33:40 [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.84.171] has joined #lisp 07:33:46 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:37:07 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has quit ["100 days are gone..."] 07:40:08 "equal-tempered" 07:40:50 grouzen_ [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:41:23 essentially, all tuning systems which have the notion of a scale have to be tempered in some way, because frequency ratios in various intervals are incommensurate 07:43:31 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@59.167.195.42] has quit ["leaving"] 07:44:16 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-4ae470d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:46:14 As I recall, there have been organs built with two black keys between some adjacent white keys. 07:46:38 Not recently, though, I would think. 07:47:56 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:50:49 Instruments with valves such as the French horn must have some interesting tuning compromises, given that adding two pieces of tube of fixed size is not the "right" thing to do in order to obtain the combined effect of adding each individual piece of tube. 07:51:57 indeed; theorists are fond of telling people that 53-tone equal temperament lets you play in (effectively) all sorts of close approximations to e.g. pythagorean, syntonic, and other varied temperaments 07:52:08 just try playing an instrument with 53 keys per octave 07:52:41 Pretty tricky I would imagine. 07:56:44 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-135-23.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 07:56:52 good morning 07:59:22 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 08:00:32 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 08:01:29 -!- mcox [n=markcox@131.181.41.84] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:07:17 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:09:21 if anyone was following my earlier tantrum about "plugin web apps"; along with what i laid out you will also need to sort out the display mess. For visual applications you can have a small set of display sizes and display *methods* (e.g. toobar icon, modal dialog, modeless dialog, or access to the user's various "streams" like status/wall/profile/message, etc.) 08:09:40 aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:10:37 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:11:26 fusss: what are you talking about? Do you have a writeup about it? 08:11:39 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:11:42 madnificent: none outside my own codebase 08:12:03 this is for building extensible web applications where 3rd parties can "run" apps on your platform 08:12:55 fusss: my holiday job was writing firefox plugins and web apps, still something I'd like to make cleaner, but it involved compiling plugins, which didn't work as planned 08:13:42 you give the consuming apps non-PII information (i.e. just user-ids, or a mapping integer that corresponds with a user-id), let them process it, they give you back a result and you annotate that result on their behalf with the user's private information and pass that to the user. 08:14:03 -!- crouton1 [i=crouton@bas1-toronto10-1279558915.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 08:14:26 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:14:33 ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 08:14:38 I'll talk about it later, gotta go :) 08:14:49 cheers! 08:16:26 tik_ta [i=ruoyu417@117.8.214.30] has joined #lisp 08:17:27 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:17:52 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:18:18 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:13 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-48-217.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 08:21:40 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@triband-mum-120.61.16.166.mtnl.net.in] has joined #lisp 08:22:18 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@triband-mum-120.61.16.166.mtnl.net.in] has left #lisp 08:25:29 -!- HET4 [n=diman@80.3.31.126] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:27:20 -!- tik_ta [i=ruoyu417@117.8.214.30] has left #lisp 08:29:18 I've got a format question regarding (format nil "foo ~A" bar) 08:29:44 if bar contains a string with multiple lines, can I use format to align those lines horizontally? 08:29:54 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:30:18 -!- prxq_ is now known as prxq 08:31:12 levy: yes. 08:31:46 prxq, good, thx ;-) and what is it? 08:32:31 all the pretty-printing and formatting directives apply. The hyperspec is where you'll find what you need :-) 08:33:19 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@75.36.204.63] has joined #lisp 08:33:19 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:33:28 -!- nvoorhies_ is now known as nvoorhies 08:33:36 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-128-156.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:33:58 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 08:38:51 I must confess, that so far pretty-printing with format overloads my capabilities... 08:45:10 matimago: fear not, it'll all be clear someday -- I grokked with-condition-restarts today. 08:45:22 (and a short while ago thought that I'd never understand it) 08:45:48 although I also just stay away from all pprinting format commands too.. 08:46:06 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:46:49 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:48:02 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:52:13 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:52:14 mauriciotoro [n=mauricio@laptop-147-210-129-44.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 08:52:29 :) 08:55:49 (print "testing: can somebody 'hear' me?") 08:56:07 hello. 08:56:30 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:56:37 -!- mauriciotoro [n=mauricio@laptop-147-210-129-44.labri.fr] has left #lisp 08:57:11 interesting. 08:57:25 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:58:42 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [] 09:08:46 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.82.89] has joined #lisp 09:11:38 -!- DeusExPikachu [i=pikachu@anapnea.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:11:38 -!- sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:11:38 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:11:38 -!- albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has quit 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09:50:04 Hello! Is it possible to add character by unicode code to a lisp string? Like "\(charcode)" 09:50:20 clhs code-char 09:50:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_code_c.htm 09:50:55 so I need to concat it to string? 09:51:48 freiksenet: that would depend on the kind of string you have. 09:51:50 i don't know. you have the character, do whatever you want with it. 09:52:14 freiksenet: if you have a mutable adjustable extendable string, you could just do (vector-push-extend (code-char code) string). 09:52:54 well in, for example, python you can just write string and escape the unicode character inside the string, can you do it like this? 09:53:11 so you don't need to first create this character and then add it to string 09:53:44 freiksenet: characters are like numbers, you don't really create them, they exist eternaly. 09:54:10 freiksenet: (format nil "foo~Cbar" char) would work 09:54:12 freiksenet: Why do you want to "escape" the character. Just write it inside the string! 09:54:23 mm, that's what I want 09:54:36 freiksenet: Put: ;; -*- coding:utf-8 -*- on the first line, and let emacs encode your source in utf-8. 09:54:37 I need for example epsilon in the string 09:54:44 ah, cool 09:54:53 matimago: ...and have a utf-8 capable lisp 09:54:55 freiksenet: then tell your implementation that your files are in utf-8, and you won't need to escape anything. 09:55:02 thats what I wanted, thanks :) 09:55:24 then again, with cl-interpol you can also use #?"Sn\x{2603}wman!" 09:55:51 (princ "better to just put  in your source...") 09:56:18 #?"Sn\N{Snowman}wman!" :-P 09:56:30 ok, thanks a lot :) 09:57:06 matimago: so that rmaas won't get additional reasons to complain ;) 09:57:50 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 10:00:49 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 10:01:02 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:05:09 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:08:19 -!- dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Client Quit] 10:09:59 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp011.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:12:09 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 10:12:42 you might say I'm lazy, but maybe some can answer this from memory 10:13:09 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@68.126.198.233] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:13:17 here is a format question regarding (format nil "foo ~A" bar) 10:13:29 if bar contains a string with multiple lines, how can I use format to align those lines horizontally? 10:13:35 I failed to look it up in clhs 10:14:17 levy: have you had a look at 22.3.5 FORMAT Pretty Printer Operations ? 10:14:30 Specifically: 22.3.5.2 Tilde Less-Than-Sign: Logical Block 10:14:34 clhs 22.3.5.2 10:14:34 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ceb.htm 10:14:59 and: 10:15:01 clhs 22.3.6.2 10:15:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cfb.htm 10:15:06 adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has joined #lisp 10:16:06 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-237.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit ["be back later"] 10:18:51 matimago, searching for newline in those chapters do not lead me to the solution 10:20:01 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-113-165.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 10:22:34 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:22:54 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:23:53 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 10:26:20 I guess I have to split that string into a list to do that 10:26:34 Yes, I think that's needed too. 10:27:40 -!- [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.94.84.171] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:27:41 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:27:56 adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has joined #lisp 10:28:57 pjb pasted "formating lines" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87635 10:29:40 wow, pjb you're my hero :-) 10:29:42 *matimago* is defeated once again by ~< 10:30:07 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 10:30:35 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@78-69-144-82-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:30:45 (format nil "foo ~@< ~@;~A~@:>" "bar 10:30:46 baz 10:30:49 quux") 10:31:02 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:31:15 adjust to taste 10:31:30 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:31:54 fun is programming for the disparate social networks API 10:32:17 try "import contacts" for starts 10:32:20 *Adlai* just ran some massively parallel CL code... and crashed his WM 10:33:19 Adlai: That's hillarious. 10:35:02 schme: yeah... StumpWM crashed when I tried closing my browser. I then watched from vc1 as the code finished running gracefully :) 10:35:39 It's a sign 10:35:54 that? 10:37:18 dunno 10:38:30 in addition to OAuth there is also the google AuthSub http://code.google.com/apis/contacts/docs/3.0/developers_guide_protocol.html#auth_sub 10:39:12 *fusss* just using poor ole #lisp as a debugging, archived notebook; suffer me wrath, ye rubber duckies! 10:41:53 segv [n=mb@p4FC1BEB7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:20 anyone have this? the links are all dead: http://www.cliki.net/cl-yahoo 10:44:45 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:46:20 addled [n=adlirc@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 10:46:30 Xof annotated #87635 "oh yeah?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87635#1 10:47:12 -!- addled [n=adlirc@209.20.68.236] has left #lisp 10:47:47 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:47 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:48:33 adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has joined #lisp 10:51:33 What deviant Lisp implementation has this character #\NO-BREAK_SPACE? 10:51:50 Xof, your one is even simpler, thx 10:53:10 joswig [n=joswig@f054053203.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:53:10 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:53:56 adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has joined #lisp 10:54:49 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 10:55:24 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest99900 10:59:44 ANN: People interested in social networks APIs, importing user profiles, contacts, statuses and relationship graphs for every major network out there should DEFINITELY contact me and stay in touch. There are about 20 protocols and APIs to be implemented and we can share the responsibilities and of course the props. 10:59:47 grouzen_ [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 10:59:48 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:59:54 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:59:59 lichtblau [n=user@77-22-106-8-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:00:17 *Xach* feeds the children props when they are hungry 11:00:24 -!- Guest99900 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 11:01:04 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:01:14 adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has joined #lisp 11:01:47 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177150197.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:01:48 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:02:27 addled [n=adlirc@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 11:02:41 -!- addled [n=adlirc@209.20.68.236] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:03:19 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:03:44 hmm, actually that's "hops" 11:04:01 Xach: I wish I could do more my friend 11:04:06 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 11:04:40 Xach: if you pick the niche, on your own time, there is plenty of good that will come out of it, freelancing. 11:04:48 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:04:58 some of the stuff is so far out there isn't even php or python libraries for them 11:05:01 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-128-156.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:06:15 adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has joined #lisp 11:06:18 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-128-156.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:06:18 brb 11:06:39 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 11:07:34 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:07:41 I was wondering what is the most complicated format string that you have used (for real)? 11:08:03 gz` [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:09:01 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"] 11:12:08 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:20 levy: cl-perec doesn't seem to set up foreign key constraints between tables. What is the rationale for that? 11:17:25 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:17:44 adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has joined #lisp 11:19:50 lichtblau, inheritance allows to have instances of a class to be present in multiple tables 11:20:21 in principle it could do when it can prove that there's only one table involved 11:22:19 Aha, thanks. I don't use inheritance between persistent classes (yet?), so I hadn't thought about that. 11:22:53 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:25:39 lichtblau, abstract persistent classes may not even have a table even if they have slots 11:25:40 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:25:47 still they can be referred from associations 11:26:13 subclasses which are not abstract will have tables, and a view is set up for the abstract class 11:26:50 this is the default behavior but many other configurations are possible, see :direct-store class argument 11:27:13 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:28:12 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:29:06 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:29:52 I don't think I'm using abstract classes either, perhaps because I had no idea they exist. 11:30:26 *lichtblau* hasn't read the entire documentation^W test suite yet. 11:32:36 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 11:35:59 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-113-165.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:40:18 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:41:40 don333 [n=user@nut.man.poznan.pl] has joined #lisp 11:44:44 benny [n=benny@i577A0BCA.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:44:44 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:45:02 _jason4867 [n=thot@59-105-27-43.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has joined #lisp 11:45:18 silenius [n=jl@192.166.201.90] has joined #lisp 11:46:05 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:50 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:48:45 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-65-191.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:52:10 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 11:52:12 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:52:28 -!- don333 [n=user@nut.man.poznan.pl] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:53:31 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:54:04 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:54:56 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 11:55:46 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:58 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:57:05 *levy* forks 12:00:38 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:00:45 adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has joined #lisp 12:00:55 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:56 pragma_ [n=pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has joined #lisp 12:04:52 sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:34 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-179-95.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:06:44 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-48-217.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:06:59 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-113-165.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 12:08:06 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:08:16 adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has joined #lisp 12:08:47 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:09:48 pr [n=pr@p579CADB5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:30 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:12:19 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:13:07 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 12:14:33 -!- _jason4867 [n=thot@59-105-27-43.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has quit [] 12:14:34 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:14:44 adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has joined #lisp 12:15:08 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 12:15:49 Odin- [n=sbkhh@130.208.131.159] has joined #lisp 12:18:44 addled [n=adlirc@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 12:18:57 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-113-165.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:21:15 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 12:24:30 levy: What could "This connection is still processing another query." result from? 12:24:50 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 12:24:50 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:25:03 lichtblau, hmm, no idea, what db is it? 12:25:24 lichtblau: shared *transaction* between threads? 12:25:26 I'm using with-transaction everywhere, shouldn't that keep this kind of situation from happening? 12:25:28 is after redefining the model and exporting? 12:25:58 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 12:26:12 connections are not shared between transactions 12:26:29 not even between subsequent ones (which is not so good for performance) 12:27:30 lichtblau, I think attila's guess is the most probable, multiple threads using the same *transaction* concurrently 12:28:30 not certain about most of your questions. I had just changed a defclass, but I'm doing a manual (iter (for (nil y) in-hashtable prc::*persistent-classes*) (prc::export-to-rdbms y)) after such changes anyway. Is that the right thing to do? 12:28:40 lichtblau, with-transaction always starts a new one, so if there's no with-transaction* and no other direct *transaciton* bindings then it might be a bug 12:29:06 lichtblau, you normally don't have to do that by hand 12:30:12 adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has joined #lisp 12:30:12 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@75.36.204.63] has quit [] 12:30:15 When I restarted the postgres daemon earlier, cl-perec told me that the connection has been closed (sorry, the exact message is gone from the scrollback), which surprised me. If every transaction has its own connection, why is a fresh prc:with-transaction complaining about a closed connection? 12:30:58 make-instance and the query engine is prepared for model modifications, although in some weird cases you may need to call ensure-exported on the class 12:31:28 export-to-rdbms is not the right way, because it does export it even if it is uptodate 12:32:17 lichtblau, if you have such a reproducible error then we could look at it, that's a cl-rdbms issue btw and has not much to do with cl-perec 12:33:15 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-11-45-70.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 12:33:53 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:33:58 splittist [n=dmurray@83.204.255.82] has joined #lisp 12:34:00 morning 12:34:30 gmorning splittist :) 12:34:41 lichtblau, hmm, I don't know why with-transaction complained for that 12:34:41 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:35:31 adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has joined #lisp 12:36:20 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441929.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 12:40:43 adlirc [n=adlirc@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 12:40:57 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-28-152.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:03 -!- adlirc [n=adlirc@209.20.68.236] has left #lisp 12:42:16 -!- addled [n=adlirc@209.20.68.236] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:42:39 addled [n=adlirc@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 12:44:29 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:44:37 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:02 adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has joined #lisp 12:45:39 Xach, Xof: herep 12:45:52 or or and? 12:45:56 hey gigamonkey, congrats. 12:46:11 enough talking: automate the chart update! 12:46:36 Xach: Heh. 12:46:40 haha, the estimated sales chart is amusing 12:46:44 Looks like I need to adjust the scale on that chart. 12:46:57 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:47:14 Or rather, the labels. 12:47:14 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:47:51 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6CC78.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:20 http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_b_1_1 Take that Malcom Gladwell! 12:48:32 mishoo [n=mishoo@86.124.79.237] has joined #lisp 12:48:53 woot! congrats giga :) 12:49:12 didnt realise you were in the top 100. when are you coming on the jon stewart show :D 12:49:34 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:49:40 bah - old media! 12:49:54 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:55 Dawgmatix: I'm wating for his people to talk to my people. You know how it is. 12:50:00 :D 12:50:02 adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has joined #lisp 12:50:02 coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 12:50:05 get an amex ;) 12:53:30 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:53:57 Xach: you grok Gimp, right? 12:54:10 If I've cropped an image, how do I know make that the whole image. 12:54:11 ? 12:54:43 I.e. I cropped it down to a chunk out of the middle. Now I want a file of just that bit. 12:54:45 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 12:54:45 dialtone [n=dialtone@host105-215-static.37-88-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:55:05 gigamonkey: hello 12:55:58 gigamonkey: when the crop tool does its job, the end result is the whole image is that cropped bit. 12:56:06 gigamonkey: if you still see the crop tool on your image, you haven't cropped yet. 12:56:07 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177077073.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:25 in older gimp, you could click inside your crop area to make it take effect 12:56:29 *Xof* can't remember where the CaW chart is 12:56:32 there might be an actual button in new gimp 12:56:44 Xof: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/coders-at-work-charts/charts.html 12:57:52 Xach: Hmmm. I guess I got it: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/tmp/top25.png 12:57:56 Not sure what I did. 12:58:31 nice spike. How'd you get it? 12:58:49 (If I cared enough, we could argue about the % change graph 12:59:10 Xof: Joel on Software 12:59:30 cool :) 12:59:42 Xof: % change -- scientific validity of? 12:59:43 yeah, he was raving about it 13:00:01 joel is the new oprah 13:00:03 Xof: go for it. 13:00:33 well, moving from rank 10000 -> 10 is a 99.9% change (possibly with more or fewer 9s) 13:00:36 Just beaten by Dawkins 13:00:51 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-244.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 13:00:54 moving from rank 10 -> 10000 is a 999999% change (again, zeros) 13:01:22 yet they are the reverse of each other, and so (I would claim) should show up as equal-sized bars on the chart 13:01:31 maybe that is what you're doing, I don't know 13:02:01 gigamonkey: let me add my congratulations :) 13:02:45 adityo_ [n=adityo@122.170.28.153] has joined #lisp 13:03:23 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:03:36 Xof: probably not. 13:03:40 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6CC78.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 13:03:46 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.170.36.202] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:03:48 lukego: thanks 13:04:41 Here's the key bit of code: (* (/ (- prev-rank rank) prev-rank) 100) 13:04:47 Which is wrong in the way you describe, I guess. 13:04:51 There ar 3 used "Coders at work" but they sell for more than the double of new ones, so I'd guess that means it's a good book! 13:05:04 matimago: get's better with age, apparently. 13:05:05 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:05:11 self-thwap. 13:05:40 gigamonkey: I didn't understand the charts so well. how many copies do you think have sold? 13:06:25 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:06:36 549 per one mode of estimating. 13:06:45 (The red chart) 13:06:53 267 by the "Novelrank" algorithm. 13:07:14 But I know I've sold more than 267 just through my own Amazon associates links. 13:11:11 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.134] has joined #lisp 13:11:53 -!- adityo_ [n=adityo@122.170.28.153] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:12:05 adityo [n=adityo@122.170.28.153] has joined #lisp 13:13:13 adlirc [n=adlirc@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 13:13:44 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:13:45 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.170.28.153] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:14:25 Xach: saw your comment on the reddit. Thread. Good to see someone sticking up for JWZ. 13:14:35 gigamonkey: about your daughter (blog entry on 2009-07-16), we say that « La vérité sort de la bouche des enfants. » (Thruth comes from the mouth of children.) 13:15:46 I've often heard that saying, and then my son will say "I don't know how the juice got all over the floor. I think [little brother] did it." 13:16:14 :-) 13:17:11 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 13:17:12 "Awww, man. Look what God made happen." 13:18:31 Perhaps there was an ant that was about to become the next ant-hitler, so she deserved an juice-flood to prevent ant-ocid. 13:19:25 adityo [n=adityo@122.170.28.153] has joined #lisp 13:20:14 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.170.28.153] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:20:34 Xach, matimago: I've been reading Po Bronson's new book, Nurture Shock. Very good over all and there's a good chapter on childrens' lying. 13:20:49 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.82.89] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:22:54 *Xach* doesn't trust any book that isn't in amazon's top 25 13:23:06 these reddit hackers, no respect for their elders 13:23:53 just checking -- but SETF is guaranteed to set places sequentially, right? PSETF being reserved for doing things in parallel? 13:24:03 Right. 13:24:11 sykopomp: "parallel". 13:24:11 *nod* 13:24:13 theeclipse [n=behdad@60.53.225.73] has joined #lisp 13:24:14 (progn (setf a 1 b a c b) (assert (= 1 a b c))) 13:24:19 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-65-191.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:24:19 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.82.89] has joined #lisp 13:24:24 pkhuong: well, as "parallel" as LET :P 13:24:26 adityo [n=adityo@122.170.28.153] has joined #lisp 13:24:53 matimago: well, you know. Actually testing in one implementation doesn't necessarily tell you what the right answer is <_< 13:25:31 I didn't meant it as a "test", but as a "specification". 13:25:38 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit ["leaving"] 13:25:59 Hi guys, I'm quite new to lisp, do you know any online tutorial about debugging in lisp? 13:26:37 With clisp: http://www.cliki.net/TutorialClispDebugger 13:26:53 hmm 13:27:02 matimago: yes with clisp.. thanks 13:27:05 There are also videos about slime that would show IIRC how to debug with slime. 13:27:07 *Xach* ponders writing up his slime edit/debug experience 13:27:18 Xach: please do 13:27:23 /me imagines a 30min video of Xof explaining the "think hard" approach 13:27:48 mcspiff: I'll try to do it sometime. 13:28:26 also, whats the basic usage for slime-sprof? I did slime-sprof-start, ran the function I wanted to profile, slime-sprof-stop, slime-sprof-browser but I didnt see any of my functions in the list 13:28:27 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.170.28.153] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:29:04 lichtblau: demonstrating! 13:29:28 adityo [n=adityo@122.170.28.153] has joined #lisp 13:30:02 joswig: regarding your stackoverflow post today, I believe that in #'dbscan, the calls to #'merge, #'nth and #'subseq could be rolled into a single list traversal. 13:30:08 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-254-89.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:30:10 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 13:31:16 -!- grouzen_ [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 13:31:22 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:31:53 -!- theeclipse [n=behdad@60.53.225.73] has left #lisp 13:31:55 serichsen, yes 13:32:14 that's a good exercise 13:32:38 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-231-179.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:20 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-241-154.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:34:29 Yay! Coders is also the #3 English book on amazon.de just behind Dan Brown's The Lost Symbol and The Twilight Saga Box Set. 13:35:00 well, you can't choose your neighbors, I suppose :) 13:35:31 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-128-156.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:36:41 http://photoshopdisasters.blogspot.com/2009/08/microsoft-poland-at-least-they-left.html 13:36:46 joswig: and the splitting could perhaps be done just by using read-from-string. 13:36:52 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:36:59 joswig: exercise for the reader? ;) 13:37:05 for you 13:37:12 heh 13:37:18 read-from-string? 13:37:34 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:37:52 I'm not sure what the first and third elements are 13:38:08 with some knowledge, one could do something better 13:38:25 serichsen, can you edit my entry? 13:38:33 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:38:44 you could add code for your idea of traversing the list 13:38:52 -!- adlirc [n=adlirc@209.20.68.236] has left #lisp 13:39:12 I tried also a version with an array instead of a list 13:39:13 joswig: hmm, later, I have something to do here 13:39:21 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p57915FE3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:39:22 ha! 13:39:31 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:46:41 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86.124.79.237] has quit ["be back later"] 13:47:24 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 13:47:48 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest9630 13:49:04 gigamonkey: nice listing on amazon.de, too bad it takes 1-3 weeks to shipment 13:49:37 TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has joined #lisp 13:50:01 g'morning everyone 13:52:51 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:54:30 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 13:55:12 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-84-210.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 13:55:15 Morning. 13:57:48 hello gigamonkey 13:57:52 is there a basic intro to lisp types somewhere? in terms of what I should be declaring things as. 13:58:15 mcspiff: you should declare them as they are. 13:58:39 matimago: Hmmm maybe a better way to put that is... what are my choices? 13:58:43 matimago: and where can he find an overview of the existant types? 13:59:20 im working under sbcl, if that matters 13:59:29 clsh 4. 13:59:33 clhs 4. 13:59:33 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 4.. 13:59:34 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-24-220-175.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:40 clhs 4.2 13:59:40 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/04_b.htm 13:59:53 Chapter 4 is about types and class. section 4.2 about types specifically. 14:00:03 -!- Guest9630 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 14:00:11 Have a look at section 4.2.3 Type Specifiers. 14:00:27 mcspiff: why declare types at all? 14:01:05 declaring them is like baking your clay sculpture. 14:01:13 Exactly. 14:01:32 Doesn't declaring the types to a small degree help with performance in some, more rare, circumstances? 14:01:35 Xach: sometimes you almost want to be working with pelxiglas. 14:01:58 *mcspiff* is confsued by the art talk 14:02:13 TDT: sure! but it's not zero-cost. 14:02:29 If I know a variable is always going to be a single-float, wont telling the compilier that help it generate better code? 14:02:31 *Xach* declares types all the time, and can think of many reasons to do it, but would like to know mcspiff's reason 14:02:48 mcspiff: yes, but there is also a cost to making that declaration. 14:02:50 -!- jyujin_ [n=jyujin@d221-90-121.commercial.cgocable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:02:53 I cant say I've declared many times in CL, but I'm still a total newbie heh 14:03:04 hmm whats the cost? 14:03:23 You cannot change the type of that variable easily. 14:03:34 mcspiff: it requires more work to adapt to new situations in the future. 14:03:35 When you write a function without declaring types, you are basically writting a generic function. 14:03:50 (it's like if you were only writing template functions in C++) 14:04:08 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-237.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 14:04:08 Hmmm alright, I follow. 14:05:03 mcspiff: i guess my rule of thumb would be "don't do it just for the sake of doing it" 14:05:21 it's useful to do when bad performance would make something not worth using 14:05:30 Xach: whats a good way to determine when you should be doing it? 14:05:46 when the profiler says the function is not fast enough 14:06:09 mcspiff: if you need the answer in 0.01 seconds and it's taking 3 seconds :) 14:06:21 but that's one tool in the toolbox for making it run more quickly. 14:07:18 Xach: fair enough, maybe its time to check out the profiler 14:07:28 mcspiff: is your program running too slowly? 14:08:02 Xach: yes 14:08:48 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 14:09:15 mcspiff: yeah, i'd start with the profiler. i don't know how the slime-sprof thing works, but you can also run the sprof functions in the repl. 14:09:52 Xach: but part of this is just an exercise for me. So ive ignored a few low hanging fruit in terms of algorithm just to see how id go about profileing and optimizing in lisp. 14:09:57 someone made a chart of lisp type not long ago but i've lost the url 14:12:03 http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~shapiro/Courses/CSE202/Summer2004/ has a lisp type chart. 14:13:33 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:01 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-28-152.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:15:08 -!- jhalogen [n=jake@98.154.251.83] has quit [] 14:16:50 sbcl --eval '(sb-ext:run-program "/usr/local/bin/sbcl" (list "--eval" "(break)"))' 14:16:59 try typing in back 14:17:42 does not print the backtrace for me 14:18:46 sbcl --no-sysinit --no-userinit --eval '(sb-ext:run-program "/usr/local/bin/sbcl" (list "--no-sysinit" "--no-userinit" "--eval" "(break)"))' 14:18:50 to be more complete 14:19:00 somehow typing does not pass through 14:19:10 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:20:00 Clearly there are two processes reading the tty, and one is faster than the other, at getting the lines and ignoring them. 14:20:20 this reminds me of the earlier problem with (iirc) running vi with sb-ext:run-program 14:20:25 and i think someone blogged about it 14:20:31 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 14:21:16 levy: is this with the "run-program and shared tty" patch that was on sbcl-devel recently? 14:21:33 (I don't recall the exact email subject.) 14:22:01 Xach: something with process groups should be done I'd guess. 14:22:29 lichtblau, no special patches here 14:22:31 lichtblau: i'm just building sbcl to test it 14:23:35 specifically i'm building with "[Sbcl-devel] RUN-PROGRAM fix, again (was: Re: Upcoming freeze for 1.0.31)" 14:23:51 and perhaps some job management would be useful too, when running several programs in parallel... 14:24:22 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:25:10 I meant this type chart: http://www.xs4all.nl/~euqirea/cl-types.png I've put it up at my ISP but someone in this channel made it. 14:25:18 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.164.121] has joined #lisp 14:25:19 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483AC33.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:10 Xach: thanks for adding the blog to planet lisp :) 14:26:36 aerique: o very nice, thanks 14:27:29 Some types are two things, but no type is three things at once... 14:27:33 scottmaccal1 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 14:28:44 _jason7954 [n=thot@59-105-27-43.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has joined #lisp 14:30:21 Aszarsha [n=aszarsha@91-164-146-2.rev.libertysurf.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:50 felideon: no problem! no blog like the wind! 14:31:27 now blog like the wind, rather 14:32:24 hehe yeah... now i've really asked for it. it was nice to see some people were interested, so that'll keep me going. 14:32:30 Is gmail glitching out again? Or is it just me. 14:32:32 lichtblau: with that patch, it can not even start the nested sbcl, got hung in wait-for-process/sub-serve-event or something 14:32:41 gigamonk`: mentioned by Spolsky, eh? 14:33:04 gigamonk`: I was just able to connect to Gmail through Gnus (IMAP), not sure about the web 14:33:05 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:33:12 felideon: Yup. 14:33:25 -!- jikanter [n=jordan@24-148-12-119.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:33:33 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest66516 14:34:09 scottmaccal2 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 14:34:27 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 14:34:42 I wish someone wrote a portable "cffi-run-program". Perhaps using code in SBCL, but at least that way multiple implementations would share features and bug fixes. 14:34:57 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 14:35:38 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:35:46 I vote for lichtblau to do the implementation 14:35:50 -!- scottmaccal1 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:36:11 Good point. Perhaps I'll do it once I decide to switch away from using Qt functions instead of run-program. 14:36:44 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Success] 14:38:41 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:10 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-254-89.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:50 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:41:02 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 14:41:55 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:42:16 Seems to me that you need implementation internal code to handle run-program. 14:42:52 From the side of the parent thread, vs. signals and streams handling. 14:42:58 s/thread/process/ 14:45:00 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:46:25 -!- ASau [n=user@smtp.hosting.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 14:46:28 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:46:46 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:19 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32C61F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:33 most stream implementation details needed (like file descriptor stuff) shouldn't be too hard to port. You'll need some stream stuff, C glue like SBCL does, plus a separate windows version. 14:47:43 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:53 Or fe[nl]ix does it all in iolib. Who needs CL streams anyway? ;-) 14:48:23 morn|eri [n=mornfall@ip-89-103-110-62.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 14:48:47 -!- Guest66516 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 14:49:45 (I don't use streams in Hemlock for subprocesses and sockets either, only an I/O multiplexing API similar to emacs processes.) 14:52:10 davazp [n=user@79.153.148.56] has joined #lisp 14:52:18 -!- addled [n=adlirc@209.20.68.236] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:53:22 -!- scottmaccal2 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:53:22 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.170.28.153] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:53:54 -!- morn|eri [n=mornfall@ip-89-103-110-62.karneval.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 14:55:30 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 14:55:41 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-237.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit ["be back later"] 14:56:20 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-237.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 14:58:19 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 14:58:19 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 14:59:03 adityo [n=adityo@122.170.28.153] has joined #lisp 14:59:32 -!- _jason7954 [n=thot@59-105-27-43.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has quit [] 14:59:55 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:17 ejs [n=eugen@213-2-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:20 -!- gz_ [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 15:03:42 having read Gento Intro and PCL, anyone know if Land of Lisp will be a good read? (I plan to read On Lisp eventually) 15:04:14 felideon: hard to say until it's published and reviewed 15:04:26 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-2-132.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:04:26 which will be 6 or more months 15:04:31 so no previews yet? 15:04:47 Hmm, Land of Lisp - I haven't heard of that book yet. 15:04:49 I see 15:04:50 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-5-5.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:05:18 TDT: it's written by Dr Conrad Barski, the guy behind the Lisperati tutorial 15:05:53 http://oreilly.com/catalog/9781593272005 15:06:06 Adlai: That's cool, I'll have to check into that later. I haven't gone through the Lisperati Tutorial even, I jumped right into PCL here. 15:07:00 TDT: that's ok, the lisperati tutorial is pretty short. PCL, otoh, is a real book. 15:07:10 felideon: there is a preview. 15:07:12 TDT: table of contents: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=841272 15:07:48 ikki: A little cheaper on Amazon :) 15:08:03 felideon: What that's the TOC of? 15:08:23 felideon: Hmm, nice, most stuff there already covered but if an ebook comes out of this, kindle version, I'll likely purchase it :) 15:08:37 felideon, good to know :) 15:08:57 504 pages! (estimated) 15:09:18 gigamonk`: Land Of Lisp 15:10:09 Lots of LOL in the lisp world these days 15:10:30 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:10:31 Lisp On Lines, Land Of Lisp, Let Over Lambda 15:10:39 Lulz 15:10:47 Laughter out Loud 15:11:07 emacs-dwim [n=user@74.71.11.230] has joined #lisp 15:11:25 Is there a ken-thompson-hack in sbcl? 15:11:37 what, did orlly drop their no-lisp policy 15:11:41 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:11:45 dlowe: Actually I'm starting to get the impression that the Lisp community is one long maniacal laugh 15:11:47 varjag: a few years ago yes. 15:11:48 emacs-dwim: not that I know of. 15:11:58 emacs-dwim: unlikely, given that you can build sbcl from clisp and xcl 15:12:04 what's a ken-thompson-hack? 15:12:09 pkhuong: how would you? 15:12:11 reflections on trusting trust 15:12:13 haven't been tracking that for a while 15:12:14 Oh! That ken-thompson-hack. 15:12:26 Of course, I can't really picture a whole lot of Lisp programmers laughing maniacally, so it would be great to put together a bunch of videos of exactly that 15:12:38 Preferably with monocles and mustaches and such 15:12:48 emacs-dwim: the sbcl authors would have had to alter not only the sbcl source code and distributed binaries, but also the cmucl, clisp, ccl, abcl and xcl compilers 15:12:51 that would be quite clever 15:12:54 matimago: A compiler hacked to compile the hack into the compiler when recompiled with itself. 15:13:04 what's a ken-thompson-hack? 15:13:18 Yes. I was thinking about the Duff device, and imagined he did something similar... 15:13:29 Adlai: what Zhivago said. 15:13:30 Adlai: first you hack login to have a back door. 15:13:45 Then you hack cc to insert the hack into login when it's compiled from source without the hack 15:13:45 McCarthy may have inserted it into the /idea/ of Lisp and then bootstrapped it out in his paper. 15:13:52 I mate my mac. is anybody else making decent laptops these days? 15:13:54 heh 15:13:58 Then you hack cc to insert the hack into cc that inserts the hack into login 15:13:59 s/mate/hate/ 15:14:12 lukego: what seems to be the problem? 15:14:18 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:14:22 I like my PowerBook G4. 15:14:23 The only way to get the backdoor out of login is to write your own C compiler. 15:14:31 And hand compile it. 15:15:04 lukego: I'm very happy with my thinkpad, although I hear that some people hate them 15:15:07 matimago: well, presumably your own compiler will differ enough from the old C compiler that it won't be able to insert the hack into yours. 15:15:18 lukego: olpc! 15:15:28 root problem is actually that my Air is perpetually in overheating mode and runs incredibly slowly. I suspect it just can't deal with the background processing of vmware in any relatively warm climate 15:15:44 lukego: I don't know but I've been pretty disappoined with my new System76 notebook compared to my 5- or 6-year-old PPC PB. 15:15:57 lukego: A lenovo running ubuntu linux is really very nice. 15:16:01 lukego: I was going to argue that a MBP is the best thing since sliced bread, at least for parents of newborns :) 15:16:05 lukego: so move back to Sweden. 15:16:05 -!- younder [n=jthing@251.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 15:16:10 lukego: I always understood the Air to be designed for much more lightweight use.... 15:16:14 *Makoryu* puts on sunglasses 15:16:16 gigamonk`: hmm, I see... 15:16:30 oh, hey, an opportunity for me to hate on Macs 15:16:40 Adlai: He described it in his Turing Award lecture, "Reflections on Trusting Trust". 15:16:54 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 15:16:55 lukego: I am still happy with my lenovo X40, bought a few years ago, recently dropped by Marianne, still functional 15:16:57 gigamonk`: IIRC, they did some pattern matching to recognize the compilation of the crypt function so that as soon as you'd write the same algorithm they could hook they backdoor. 15:17:01 the air performed like a dream for the first year or so. or maybe I just didn't work it as hard then 15:17:05 lukego: In all seriousness, the Air is a failed experiment, but more recent MBs aren't so bad. Still probably easier to just get a Thinkpad-alike 15:17:22 lukego: ....Maybe it needs cleaning? 15:17:26 ¯\O_o/¯ 15:17:31 I bitterly regret getting a Dell M1530 instead of a thinkpad 15:17:44 I've opened it up and cleaned the fan. can't easily get at the CPU to see if there's a "thermal paste issue" 15:17:45 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@130.83.156.186] has left #lisp 15:17:50 lukego: Maybe it just needs some airing out? 15:17:51 I don't know if my problems are due to the hardware, Ubuntu, or just bad karma. 15:18:12 sad thing is that I think I'm too hooked on itunes to run linux again 15:18:16 lukego: sell the Air, get a unibody MBP 15:18:21 *mcspiff* loves his macbook. A laptop and camp stove in one! 15:18:27 *matimago* doesn't use iTunes. 15:18:36 michaelw: considering that idea actually 15:18:50 wife has had a unibody MBP since July. it's pretty good if you ask me 15:19:23 lukego: you could look at this as an opportunity to write the music player of your dreams. 15:19:31 I think I'll try to phase out my vmware by porting a couple of small programs to Mac and farming the rest out to a server on the 'net 15:20:15 mac on the laptop, ubuntu + stumpwm on the desktop, computing life is seriously good 15:20:18 looooop [n=var@vps-1005590-1468.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 15:20:22 hefner: hey that reminds me I was at a an open-source trade show yesterday and asked the openbsd booth what was new and exciting in their world. the big news is that they just rewrote CVS according to their preferred coding standard! 15:20:38 lukego: that's the way I use it, when connected. I've got servers on my LAN and use the laptop as a X terminal. Only on the run would I have to let it run hot, but then I'd not compile a lot of things, just read some email and pdfs. 15:20:39 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.170.28.153] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:20:44 adityo [n=adityo@122.170.28.153] has joined #lisp 15:20:50 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 15:20:52 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 15:21:03 lukego: I feel safer already. 15:21:13 Xof: I think X40 was the last decent thinkpad X. I had a 31 and loved it, and a 60s and didn't 15:21:28 screen to some coding standard would be nice. We should rewrite it in lisp... 15:21:54 wasnt there something about an elisp version on planet emacsen? or am i going crazy 15:22:03 escreen, elscreen something like that? 15:22:08 elscreen maybe 15:22:33 lukego: I have a T400 and it works pretty well 15:22:56 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:23:17 ok thanks guys. I've noted unibody MBP and thinkpads X* and T400 as worth thinking about 15:24:00 lukego: I'd recommend thinkpads in place of MBP, but that's just me :) 15:24:09 speaking (vaguely) of lisp and screen, the friend I'm staying with worked out a good system of running shuffletron in a shared screen session tonight so we could both control the stereo over ssh 15:24:29 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 15:24:31 addled [n=adlirc@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 15:26:22 hefner: very cool 15:26:40 lukego: one thing about this laptop though is the battery life -- I get decent battery life becuase I use StumpWM and run Archlinux, but when I ran Ubuntu + Gnome + Compiz, I only had about 2 hours of battery life. 15:26:49 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:38 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 15:28:51 *gigamonkey* approves of these screenshots http://www.nongnu.org/stumpwm/exciting.jpg 15:29:14 gigamonkey: do you tile? 15:29:28 yeah those are interesting, gigamonkey 15:29:35 OH 15:29:41 hah, good one ;) 15:29:44 The penny drops. ;-) 15:29:44 gigamonkey: especially the PCL? ;) 15:29:58 ug another reminder that I really should check out SICP... 15:30:00 That's a realy unorganized setup there, heh. 15:30:07 that's a really expensive-looking mp3 player 15:30:08 gigamonkey: makes you look arcane by association :) 15:30:14 lukego: lol 15:30:17 -!- PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:30:17 -!- rey_ [n=ikke@134.184.49.19] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:30:24 Way too many comps, switching betwen keyboards often would be...tough. 15:30:46 yeah. maybe he hasnt heard of Synergy 15:31:29 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [No route to host] 15:31:41 lukego: maybe we should start a pool on Coders top rank. 15:31:52 #1 15:31:56 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:32:21 Adlai [n=adlai@93.173.140.203] has joined #lisp 15:32:22 I think if Dan Brown dropped out of #1 pagers would start going off all over Amazon. 15:33:05 how do you pronounce zawinski btw? 15:33:06 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.170.28.153] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:33:21 adityo [n=adityo@122.170.28.153] has joined #lisp 15:33:21 "zawinski" 15:33:34 zah-WIN-skee 15:33:36 felideon: Yeah, even multiple machines like that woudl be hard for me to really get...I mean, maybe I'm just not doing enough computing to utilize that much - dunno, hah. 15:36:04 I approve of the netbook as dedicated music player concept 15:37:03 ipod kinda has that market sewn up 15:38:58 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:39:00 jailbreaking the ipod is the way to go, IMHO. 15:39:13 gigamonkey: I'm jealous of those monitors :D 15:40:21 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:40:42 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 15:41:16 A friend of mine uses his netbook as Wifi/VoIP phone :-) 15:42:48 plenty of people do that 15:43:47 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:44:32 TDT: maybe it's because of the nature of the tiled WM. you need space to tile all your windows. but you're right, i dont think i'd ever fill 5 monitors 15:44:33 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.170.28.153] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:44:50 adityo [n=adityo@122.170.28.153] has joined #lisp 15:45:02 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 15:45:29 felideon: on the contrary, I find that you can use space more efficiently when you tile 15:45:48 Well, one contains the mp3 player, one the irc channels. I can use two or three windows. One for the running program (debugging the user interface), one for the sources, and one for the debugger. 15:45:55 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-6-206.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:55 s/windows/screens/ 15:46:13 Did you know that franz uses an adapted version of cmucl's reader.lisp? 15:46:32 I have a single 1280x800 screen (which seems nowadays to be pretty small, looking at some people's setups...), and I often just pull up one window at a time, sometimes two windows with a vertical split 15:46:35 needing five monitors to do the job of one isn't a great argument in favor of tiling WMs 15:46:39 confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:46:50 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-210.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:46:55 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:47:35 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.170.28.153] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:48:15 Adlai: yeah good point 15:50:25 matimago: ipod touch is an excellent wifi-skype device though :) 15:50:37 tcr: I did not 15:51:02 Xach: btw I am actually working on making the XO usable as a hacking machine. takes some labors though :) 15:51:03 *gigamonkey* pumps fist!!! Top ten, baby! 15:51:25 There's a bug in it which goes all the way from good ol' cmucl to sbcl, from there to abcl and xcl, and in parallel to allegro as well 15:51:30 more coders! 15:51:50 *redline6561* grins, "silly joelites" 15:51:51 In your face, Carl Jung! 15:51:57 gigamonkey: this is even better than when LiSP made #1 in amazon.ca due to a pricing error! 15:52:10 Xach: Haha. Well remembered. 15:52:19 how could i forget? it was my fault! 15:52:25 redb1ue [i=star@ppp081.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:52:28 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 15:52:37 Because you pointed out the low price? Or caused it? 15:52:40 Xach: Wait, what? You mean it was your fault that people knew about it right? 15:52:53 gigamonkey: a guy on #lisp found the low price, bought it, got his book fine, so i blogged about it 15:53:01 LiSP? 15:53:05 *mcspiff* is still ticked that they canceled his order 15:53:05 i figured if he got it, the price was legit 15:53:09 Lisp in Smal Pieces. 15:53:10 minion: lisp 15:53:11 lisp: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 15:53:15 thanks 15:53:28 Xach: Indeed. :) 15:53:37 felideon: No problem. 15:53:43 minion: I'm so glad you and cliki get along again 15:53:48 I'm so glad you and cliki get along again: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 15:53:50 *Xach* should have kept quiet and bought a dozen of them over the course of 12 weeks 15:53:55 -> profit! 15:54:00 oh. 15:54:08 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:56:06 ejs1 [n=eugen@213-2-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:44 KingNatoG5__ [n=patrik@84-217-7-141.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:21 -!- v0|d [n=user@213.232.33.243] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:57:27 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 15:59:25 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 15:59:43 proun [n=proun@76.180.85.22] has joined #lisp 15:59:59 -!- silenius [n=jl@192.166.201.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:00:21 has anyone compiled clm with sbcl? 16:00:22 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-135-23.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:00:34 -!- ejs [n=eugen@213-2-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:02:06 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-9-27.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:02:07 -!- KingNatoG5__ is now known as KingNatoG5 16:02:50 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-11-45-70.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit ["trying stumpwm"] 16:04:58 younder [n=jthing@251.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:05:22 -!- KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-6-206.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:06:36 milanj [n=milan@93.86.52.38] has joined #lisp 16:07:28 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:55 gz_ [n=gz@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:09 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:08:20 Xach: what was that website which guesses a font based on some questions? 16:09:23 identifont.com is one such (lisp-powered!) site 16:10:14 Server: CL-HTTP/70.216 (LispWorks; 2.1.7) 16:10:45 ol3 [n=user@62.96.71.176] has joined #lisp 16:11:40 wow the new joel post just seems.... angry. 16:12:05 hello, i'm using clisp, and like to know the pid of my lisp process, is this possible? 16:12:05 "rwoar i hate multithreading and good looking people!" 16:13:09 ol3: (ext:process-id) 16:13:19 -!- davazp [n=user@79.153.148.56] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:14:15 Xach: thank you :) 16:14:15 ol3: also (apropos "thing") can help you most of time 16:15:17 milanj: ok 16:16:02 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:16:35 blandest [n=user@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 16:19:35 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:08 Xach: almost, but not quite 16:20:45 Xach: (thanks, though!) 16:20:55 michaelw: not the one you had in mind, or not succeeding at guessing? 16:21:05 Xach: the latter 16:21:07 i will also guess the font, if you show me a bit of it... 16:21:14 and i am lisp-powered, too 16:23:01 that's a cool app. More than 30 fonts match the description, but I didn't have a full sample of text 16:24:43 interesting http://www.identifont.com/top-fonts.html 16:25:44 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:26:30 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 16:28:21 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-151.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 16:29:01 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 16:29:03 Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-090-190.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 16:29:05 bah, I must have gotten a question wrong 16:29:45 spilman [n=spilman@92.139.81.108] has joined #lisp 16:30:04 hopefully not to the "Do you prefer Arial to Helvetica?" question 16:30:24 there's a few of those apps out there, it really depends how popular the typeface you're looking at is 16:30:31 :-) I was trying to get it to tell me the font I was looking at was Linux Libertine 16:30:36 which it has in its database, apparently 16:31:57 Lispworks reader seems to come from cmucl, too. Huh, perhaps there's some shared source X! 16:35:10 Well, I guess it's good news for me that it didn't explode when I asked for a sans-serif font suitible for setting large amounts of text. 16:36:00 -!- zbigniew_ is now known as zbigniew 16:36:12 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@213-2-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:37:04 gigamonkey: gill sans? 16:37:23 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:37:32 hello 16:37:41 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 16:37:53 tcr: yes, twenty five years ago 16:39:29 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:40 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-11-45-70.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 16:41:26 Spice Lisp, perhaps. 16:42:30 I feel like I remember having read that cmucl's reader derives from the one in spice lisp. May easily confuse that with some other part, though. 16:42:52 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 16:42:52 tcr: the LispWorks editor is based on Hemlock 16:43:04 mcdonji [n=mcdonji@70.75.0.48] has joined #lisp 16:43:05 CMUCL is a renamed Spice Lisp 16:43:49 Spice Lisp was the name of the Lisp in the beginning, and then when Common Lisp was being designed it morphed into CMUCL 16:44:11 Yeah I know 16:44:25 so its the same source 16:44:30 it's 16:46:14 ejs [n=eugen@88-252-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:25 proun: yeah, well, they didn't come up with that. But at least it's a theoretical possibility. 16:46:30 if one wants to honor some old Lisp guy at some future Lisp meeting, we should invite Scott Fahlman and thank him for CMUCL and some other stuff 16:46:37 ;;; This code has been inspired from the Spice Lisp Reader(Written by David Dill). 16:46:50 And emoticons! :-) 16:46:58 question: I'm using SLIME+SBCL and when I enter `+' it evaluates to a PROGN form instead of just the `+' function. Anyone know why? 16:46:58 and Common Lisp 16:47:14 and Dylan 16:47:16 well 16:47:21 Just entering `-' has the expected results though 16:47:23 nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has joined #lisp 16:47:28 Xach: FFS... i just got an email back from our DNS provider telling me they don't have 'diki.net' on their severs. I told him to get a proper font. 16:47:40 And, very indirectly, PCL. (My dad met with him a long time ago which led to my dad using Lisp on a project at Merck ...) 16:47:43 clhs + 16:47:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_pl.htm 16:47:53 boyscared: + and - are variables 16:47:55 drewc: heh. 16:47:57 check the standard 16:48:16 boyscared: read the variable documentation in that link ^^ 16:48:21 boyscared: the function you get with (function+) 16:48:27 (function +) 16:48:28 ah, thanks 16:48:33 #'+ also 16:50:31 Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-30-82.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:50:51 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-090-190.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:51:03 Land of Lisp, Conrad mentions the March next year target 16:51:04 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-254-89.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:51:12 no christmas present :-( 16:51:57 -!- whartung [n=willh@207.38.40.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:54:39 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:56:35 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177077073.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:57:23 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:57:35 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 16:57:46 Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has joined #lisp 16:57:59 *fusss* just realized how trivial a programmer's life is 16:58:26 in the beginning, you see a mountain as a mountain... 16:58:54 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.229.166] has joined #lisp 16:59:05 there are two states: on and off 16:59:10 serichsen: and then you see serichsen as serichzen? 16:59:10 I had three options: firefighter, astronaut, and programmer. 16:59:21 Adlai: haha 16:59:48 joswig: why so formal tonight? what happened to lispm? 16:59:55 fusss: and you chose the most exciting profession 17:00:18 lispm was lost in a connection break 17:00:26 also the one with a noticably lower risk of being burned to death than the other two :) 17:00:28 salva [n=salva@81.41.168.245] has joined #lisp 17:00:34 drewc: hah, that's awful. 17:00:43 *Adlai* back in a bit 17:00:56 .o(programming in space would be cool, one would have to hope that no fire breaks out, though) 17:01:13 *fusss* is sad because of three guys who went out for drinks, two had to pay, the third was carrying his banjo and the bar owner was a banjo player. Why can't more programmers run bars, and recognize me by my short stature, portly figure, and stained tshirt? 17:02:01 fusss: paratrooper, football player, musician, programmer. :) 17:02:10 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:02:23 luis: usted? 17:02:34 Luis Figo? is that you? 17:02:49 fusss: speaking spanish has never been my ambition, no. :) 17:02:50 once a woman applied to a programmer job where I was working, I interviewed her 17:02:57 she was rocket scientist 17:02:58 I have a parenscript question. 17:03:02 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.222.141] has joined #lisp 17:03:02 luis: voces 17:03:05 carpet installer, brick layer, dishwasher, programmer.... 17:03:07 (parenscript:ps 17:03:07 ((slot-value ($ document) 'ready) (lambda () 17:03:07 (loop for thing in things do 17:03:07 (parenscript:ps (alert "boo")) 17:03:07 ) 17:03:08 )) 17:03:10 ) 17:03:12 luis: eu falo portuguese tambem 17:03:21 mcdonji: do _not_ flood this channel. 17:03:21 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:03:35 mcdonji: please use lisppaste if you have code to share. 17:03:39 lisppaste: url? 17:03:39 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 17:03:39 what do you mean? 17:03:40 fingerkloppen! 17:03:43 oh 17:03:52 -!- Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has quit ["Balooga has no reason"] 17:04:38 -!- xan_ is now known as xan-afk 17:04:56 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 17:05:11 mcdonji pasted "parenscript" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87655 17:05:49 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:06:00 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:06:01 Ah I see. Sorry about that. 17:06:40 mcdonji: just as a side comment: regarding thos closing parens, that is not proper Lisp style. 17:07:14 -!- addled [n=adlirc@209.20.68.236] has left #lisp 17:07:29 Yes I know. I can't seem to cope with proper lisp style, I find this more readable. 17:08:16 mcdonji: what editor are you using? 17:08:33 mcdonji: you're doing it wrong. :) 17:08:39 format in the proper style before you show it to others 17:09:07 emacs, but I've pushed most of my code to my web site so I edit it in a browser. 17:09:15 mcdonji: don 17:09:18 mcdonji: i coincidentally read this SO comment the other day http://stackoverflow.com/questions/541407/lisp-code-formatting/541522#541522 17:09:19 t do that 17:09:30 mcdonji: even if you're on Windows and don't know jack about Emacs, you can still use LispIDE which provides more rudimentary Lisp support than any browser. 17:10:13 felideon: didn't I see your name attached to a Weblocks tutorial somewhere? 17:10:20 mcdonji: have you discovered paredit.el? 17:10:20 Yes I understand. I am playing with the seaside concept. 17:10:38 fusss: close but no cigar. 17:10:42 fusss: i started writing a blog on UCW 17:11:15 felideon: oh, yea, so how is that thing anyway? I know some present company *cough*drew*cough*c is big on it, but is it usable? 17:11:23 tsuru: no but I'll check that out 17:11:39 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:11:40 fusss: that's what I'm out to find out, and hopefully improve ;) 17:11:47 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:58 *fusss* finds it had to get the public opinion on some lisp packages because people don't tend to say it out loud that something sucks. 17:12:02 fusss: define 'usable' .. in production over 6 years, many commercial applications delivered, money made etc.... 17:12:05 fusss: improve as in make it more accessible or something 17:12:15 fusss: not as in improving its usability as a framework 17:12:36 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177077073.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:37 My question was: how do I not let parenscript not see the loop as a javascript function? 17:13:19 drewc: did you hear me coughing? :-D I am a sucker for documentation, as evidenced by the two piece that I use more rigorously than anything else, hunchentoot and clsql. 17:13:22 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 17:13:54 felideon: make it accessible for this programmer and you will get props (left over props that someone else refused to take) 17:13:58 fusss: what's wrong with the UCW getting-started.txt and the protocol docstrings? 17:14:20 also, if docs are how you choose libraries, you'll end up stuck with crap like clsql ;) 17:14:30 drewc: haha 17:14:45 there's a joke in here somewhere 17:14:47 FYI, i built it with clsql and i am populating it with raw SQL calls 17:15:11 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:15 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@83.204.255.82] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 17:16:03 drewc: i can't for the life of me get over the continuations part; i am sure i will never need to call/cc on a day to day basis, or even once, but the fact that there lies a control mechanism I don't quite grok yet makes me uneasy 17:16:47 fusss: clsql doesn't have brilliant docs 17:16:54 (or didn't; they may have improved) 17:17:00 rsynnott: no, it has impressive docs 17:17:03 fusss: there are _tons_ of documents, papers, books, websites etc explaining call/cc, and you _still_ don't need to understand how it works to use UCW. 17:17:05 do you grok your CPU all the way down? 17:17:24 stassats: ummm, doesn't everybody? 17:17:46 I don't think I do. 17:17:48 stassats: how far is all the way down? 17:18:03 1's and 0's? 17:18:08 I doubt many people understand the fundamental physics too well; it all gets much easier from there on up 17:18:12 microcode? branch prediction? FPUs? 17:18:17 down to ones and zeros is manageable 17:18:26 rsynnott: we all should know it down to the register level at least 17:18:34 rsynnott: to the physical processes in the p-n junction 17:18:41 rsynnott: there are no ones and zeros in CPUs 17:18:49 rsynnott, I don't think understanding how a few million transistors are connected is very managable, unless you only look at it from a very rough angle :) 17:19:00 fusss: why? I need to know almost nothing about the registers in my CPU to use a lisp compiler. 17:19:27 these days, you hardly even need to know about them for normal performance reasons 17:19:34 of course, if you were WRITING a compiler... :) 17:19:40 i use this little trick called 'abstraction' to get me through :D 17:20:03 -!- lichtblau [n=user@77-22-106-8-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:20:10 and only rather serious compiler writers have any real need to know about branch prediction et al 17:20:28 *drewc* knows more about the PDP then he does about the x86 :D 17:20:55 drewc: the reason you hear me bitching in this chan alot (besides actually enjoying bitching) is that i have to answer to someone I care about, and he is on a tight budget, and I can't afford waste anytime backtracking to a previous step having a discovered a dead-end in my recent choice of library. 17:21:20 drewc: we will deliver with hunchentoot this time, but i would like to explore my options for future projects. 17:22:00 fusss: how do you know you're not wasting time be avoiding research in favour of what you know? 17:22:13 s/be// 17:22:16 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:22:35 drewc: i don't. 17:22:45 *drewc* doesn't disagree with the approach of using what you know, just the reasoning behind it 17:22:53 but at least i have something that fits a spec so far 17:23:39 everytime he signs on a milestone approvingly i die a little inside; there is just so much more crap to be done .. 17:24:08 welcome to developing software lol.. sounds like every project i've been on. 17:24:12 non-programmers don't know it if you're handing them a dud 17:24:44 addled [n=adlirc@209.20.68.236] has joined #lisp 17:24:46 the project i'm on now was supposed to me a 3 month refactoring, and i've been at it for 2 years now... they keep piling on the features, i keep implementing them :) 17:24:58 wow 17:25:01 i don't want that 17:25:02 fusss: it could be a lot worse; you could be dealing with CONTRACTORS 17:25:10 johnny_z [n=anonymou@217.24.250.130] has joined #lisp 17:25:10 i was supposed to be an astronaut 17:25:15 drewc: yeah, that's not unusual at all 17:25:18 drewc: so they haven't been able to release anything in two years? 17:25:46 felideon: no, we release weekly. 17:25:55 drewc: your professionalism depresses me, i am off to drag my drunken ass to bed .. 17:25:56 sometimes more... 17:25:59 *hefner* supposes enterpriselisp never went anywhere 17:26:19 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:26:19 wow Coders is bigger than God now 17:26:20 nite all 17:26:22 hefner: this? http://enterpriselisp.infogami.com/e8e_features 17:26:25 fusss: gnight 17:26:26 drewc professional? 17:26:36 not to mention Steig Larsson 17:26:40 good night fusss 17:26:41 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"] 17:26:49 madnificent: hard to believe it know ... i have trouble with it myself. 17:27:02 drewc: don't! it's a good thing (apparently 17:27:17 rsynnott: right. I guess "last updated 3 years ago" sums it up. 17:28:34 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-fugrybpbuoiatmem] has joined #lisp 17:28:44 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-237.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit ["be back later"] 17:28:59 *luis* is annoyed at how long his copy of Coders at Work is taking to arrive 17:29:56 luis: you can proudly say you ordered it before it was cool 17:30:20 luis: coders at work not delivering on time? typical 17:30:29 you should be glad it's staying on budget (: 17:30:47 minion: chant! 17:30:47 MORE DUCT 17:30:51 TAPE 17:30:51 the title is well-chosen :) 17:30:56 minion: chant! 17:30:56 MORE DUCT 17:30:57 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-237.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 17:31:11 minion: that's not nice. You shouldn't repeat yourself 17:31:16 that's not nice. You shouldn't repeat yourself: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 17:31:19 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:33 MORE DUCT-TAPE 17:31:38 minion: Chant 17:31:38 MORE DUCT-TAPE 17:31:43 Better. 17:31:49 ty Makoryu 17:32:26 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 17:34:07 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A410.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:40 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:34:46 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:44 milanj- [n=milan@93.87.150.100] has joined #lisp 17:36:00 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:36:19 felideon` [n=felideon@74.186.235.232] has joined #lisp 17:38:41 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.82.89] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:42:54 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 17:44:40 plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@195-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:14 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:45:34 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:45:34 sandin [i=lalalal@195-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:41 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 17:45:43 -!- galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:46:17 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.52.38] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:46:41 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-237.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit ["be back later"] 17:47:12 -!- plyr_player [n=plyr_pla@195-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:47:15 -!- sandin [i=lalalal@195-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:47:28 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-237.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 17:47:34 nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-161-71-17.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:38 Hello all. 17:47:46 *nyef* finally has internet at home again. 17:47:51 seangrove [n=user@173.11.104.25] has joined #lisp 17:48:03 welcome, nyef 17:48:04 nyef! 17:48:44 So, what did I miss while I was forced offline? 17:48:58 And is there a boston lisp meeting this month? 17:49:26 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:49:29 (The usual time being four days hence and no sight of an announcement worries me.) 17:49:43 Oh, and how is everyone doing? 17:50:28 Doing well. 17:50:51 nyef: the 30th, at northeastern 17:51:03 nyef: fare mentioned it here, has not yet blogged it 17:51:10 Ah, okay. 17:52:25 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:52:44 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:52:50 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 17:52:53 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-34-67-216.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:01 wchogg [n=wchogg@host-241-72.pubnet.pdx.edu] has joined #lisp 17:56:03 jkantz_ [n=jkantz@66.31.31.99] has joined #lisp 17:56:46 -!- jkantz_ [n=jkantz@66.31.31.99] has quit [Client Quit] 17:56:47 Dawgmatix [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:56 jkantz_wfh [n=jkantz@c-66-31-31-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:00 wow, C@W is #8 on Amazon! 17:57:11 coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 17:57:37 -!- jkantz_wfh [n=jkantz@c-66-31-31-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 17:57:39 what's that Adlai? 17:57:46 *gigamonkey* is quietly freaking out inside 17:57:54 gigamonkey: you have every right to! 17:58:03 johnny_z: http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books 17:58:29 Since it's so popular, I just ordered it. :-) 17:58:33 nice 17:58:36 gigamonkey: congrats 17:58:45 rme: great! help the snowball effect 17:58:53 *felideon`* will jump on it too 17:59:11 (I had it on my list for weeks, though...) 17:59:13 do we know the sales for the 7 before this ? 17:59:40 how long until the movie adaptation is announced? 17:59:48 (am trying to establish how many more need to sell before it becomes #1) 18:00:32 Dawgmatix: a gazillion, I suspect. 18:01:19 Dawgmatix: I imagine that it would be pretty hard to beat "True Compass: A Memoir" by Edward Kennedy... 18:01:30 i just want it to beat beck :D 18:01:32 but come on 18:01:42 Dan Brown Must Die 18:01:43 surely we can beat "Diary of a Wimpy Kid" 18:01:54 surely we can pull at least one more book! 18:02:02 gigamonkey: congrats! 18:02:03 lukego: You have my full support for that 18:02:07 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:02:22 For god sake : please don't highlight me with Edward Kennedy ... 18:02:28 C@W: 1 million down, 7 to go 18:02:34 gigamonkey: so, are you ready for eternal fame? 18:02:47 Let him burn in hell. 18:02:48 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:03:17 perhaps, like Jessica Livingston, he can also marry Paul Graham 18:03:23 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-1-105.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:03:44 Xach: that must give some fame :P 18:03:55 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 18:04:23 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-210.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:04:24 Xach: Is that the equivalent of hell? 18:04:42 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:04:52 (: 18:04:53 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:01 -!- johnny_z [n=anonymou@217.24.250.130] has quit [] 18:07:24 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:30 -!- salva [n=salva@81.41.168.245] has quit [] 18:10:52 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-210.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:11:02 madnificent: Thanks! We'll see. 18:11:27 -!- felideon` is now known as felideon 18:11:58 ruepel0r [n=rue@77-21-138-135-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:13:17 ak70 [n=user@195.158.89.22] has joined #lisp 18:14:33 What's a tool on Ubuntu for taking screenshots? 18:14:51 gigamonkey: install scrot, it should be in repositories 18:16:12 gigamonkey: my "applications > accessories" menu has "Take Screenshot". the process list says "gnome-screenshot". 18:16:32 press "print screen"? 18:16:40 Xach: hmm, is there a Helvetica variant with round period (instead of square)? 18:16:50 -!- djkthx is now known as yacin 18:17:08 Xach: yeah, just found that one. 18:17:09 tagac [n=user@27.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:17:17 michaelw: don't know, sorry. 18:18:08 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-236.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:18:30 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-236.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:19:09 gigamonkey: Ubuntu probably has some shortcut, but as p_l mentioned, "scrot" is a screenshot program that works regardless of distro 18:19:12 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-42-64.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:19:13 (or desktop environment) 18:20:38 Cool. Thanks. 18:20:49 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:21:08 ubunto has a shortcut... i have no idea what it is but when my ferrets jump on the media PC, they always seem to take hundreds of screenshots. 18:21:18 heh 18:21:45 i asked them what it was, they just said 'dook'. :/ 18:21:47 it's print screen 18:22:03 drewc: have you tried teaching your ferrets to wield scythes? I always liked murderous, scythe-wielding ferrets :D 18:22:46 you can't really teach them anything... it's not that their not smart, but rather that the don't care. 18:22:52 the sbcl website doesnt seem to be linking the x86-64 binaries anymore ? 18:22:54 p_l: sounds like you have the next hollywood blockbuster for kids... 18:23:52 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 18:23:58 *they're not smart .... (nor am i apparently) 18:24:00 Dawgmatix: you can go through sourceforge if the website doesn't like to the right place. 18:24:54 pkhuong: I tried that, and couldn't find the right files. 18:25:02 ah its just just 1.0.31 and 1.0.30 dont have linux binaries 18:25:12 1.0.29 shows up just fine (via sourceforge) 18:25:17 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-173-236.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:26:03 Dawgmatix: oh yeah, not every release * platform gets a binary package. 18:26:15 tsuru: unfortunately it's an existing thing, that is seen in USA with rather bad dubbing and tons of censorship 18:26:35 okay - can i help create the package for 1.0.30 ? 18:26:42 i am going to be compiling for myself anyway 18:26:48 is there a library that does the paren-highlighting like in paste.lisp.org? i thought there was but I can't seem to find it 18:27:05 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-120-210.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:27:09 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 18:28:05 minion: colorize? 18:28:10 colorize: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 18:28:13 _8david [n=user@92.195.97.60] has joined #lisp 18:28:30 minion: i suppose you can't ... teh fuxk? 18:28:35 i suppose you can't ... teh fuxk: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 18:29:02 minion: it's not down for me... i'll check on your machine. 18:29:08 it's not down for me... i'll check on your machine: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 18:29:11 felideon: google cache says svn co svn://unmutual.info/colorize 18:29:17 drewc: it's down for me too. 18:29:18 drewc: thanks got it http://www.cliki.net/colorize 18:29:36 works for me 18:29:39 now it's back up 18:29:48 ah 18:29:51 oh good .. maybe that's my DNS getting sorted out. 18:30:08 minion: colorize? 18:30:14 colorize: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 18:30:57 luis: chandler says he's no longer releasing colorize separately, but that instead the version contained in lisppaste is to be considered canonical 18:31:30 wish ubuntu had rolling releases. the emacs package is old, have to compile it from scratch on every machine 18:31:43 Dawgmatix: use emacs-snapshot 18:31:51 fe[nl]ix: I don't suppose there are any plans to port lisppaste from araneida at some point? 18:32:53 *Xach* shivers 18:33:14 thats from march 2009. i dont think that covers emacs 23 18:33:21 Xach: At the thought of porting lisppaste? 18:33:21 (have got used to the daemon) 18:35:41 redline6561: at the mention of araneida. haven't thought about it for a while. 18:36:44 *redline6561* grins. 18:36:47 good answer. 18:37:11 I mainly asked because I tried to asdf-install lisppaste yesterday and it didn't go so well. 18:37:20 now we know Xach's secret weakness, the word "Araneida" ^_^ 18:37:41 not quite kryptonite, but will suffice 18:37:42 fe[nl]ix: :D 18:39:06 Blay [i=Blay@BSN-143-220-44.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:40 *drewc* shudders too 18:40:31 Dawgmatix: upgrade then! debian _stable_ has emacs 23 in backports. 18:41:18 :D 18:41:43 Dawgmatix: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-elisp/+archive/ppa 18:41:54 i usually flip between debian and ubuntu on the slightest of pretexts but not this time 18:41:57 set things up just a week ago 18:42:06 thanks drew, appreciate the help : 18:42:12 :) 18:42:58 Dawgmatix: i just installed emacs23 yesterday, so it's all still fresh in my mind :D 18:43:08 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has joined #lisp 18:44:07 :) 18:45:06 hey hey hey 18:45:08 HEY HEY HEY 18:45:16 C@W just passed "Diary of a Wimpy Kid"! 18:45:25 gigamonkey: news news news! 18:45:51 *Xach* is excited about coders at work, but is starting to suffer a little from coders at work overload 18:46:13 we need a c@w channel 18:46:17 :D 18:47:33 *Adlai* is suffering from slow shipping 18:47:54 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.229.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:48:38 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 18:48:43 hello 18:48:57 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:49:08 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Client Quit] 18:49:47 kami- [n=user@p4FD3D719.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:53 jikanter [n=jordan@24-148-12-119.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:51:08 there's #c@w 18:53:09 fe[nl]ix: A cruel joke, that. 18:53:25 Xach: what? 18:53:40 fe[nl]ix: i'm the only person in #c@w! 18:56:24 w00t! 18:56:33 *drewc* joins 18:57:50 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:57:55 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:42 jyujin_ [n=jyujin@d221-90-121.commercial.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:05 *Adlai* will join later 19:00:09 *Adlai* heads out 19:00:28 hey drewc, is http://trac.common-lisp.net/ucw/wiki/UcwIntro still valid UCW doc 19:00:42 since there is "Last modified: 28th of July, 2006" on the page 19:01:05 (got the feeling that i should ask you about this) 19:01:27 i just started with ucw (tired of plain hunchentoot/cl-who hacking) 19:01:53 milanj-: avoid it like the plague :) 19:02:04 this link or UCW ? :) 19:02:09 the link, sorry 19:02:23 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 19:02:57 -!- joswig [n=joswig@f054053203.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 19:03:08 aha 19:03:25 so, "getting-started.txt" is most-valid one ? :) 19:03:28 lispm [n=joswig@f054053203.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:03:29 yes 19:04:39 sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 19:04:44 I also wrote a blog post on what to consider if you want to start learning UCW 19:04:49 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 19:04:50 http://ifelipe.net/preparing-for-the-road-ahead 19:05:31 cool, thanks 19:05:53 thanks from saving me of that wiki link :) 19:06:20 np 19:06:57 hm, I'm having problems with some special characters (more specifically å ä ö) in some function names. The errors are when I try to pass it as a parameter (like #'my-funcåäö) The thing is, it works for some of my code but not for others (and the only thing differing afaIk is that they are located in different files) 19:07:10 and I'm very sure that are no other errors in the program 19:07:42 milanj-: also join #ucw if you have any questions 19:08:08 sayyestolife: what error do you get? 19:08:13 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@130.208.131.159] has quit [] 19:08:22 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:08:37 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:08:48 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:40 -!- yacin [n=yacin@lawn-143-215-206-166.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 19:09:51 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.222.141] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 19:10:17 Fare: Hello. 19:10:43 *drewc* must remember to take down the wiki 19:12:15 hrm, off-topic, but I have little contact with the US otherwise: in what stores is it most likely you would be able to buy a SONY Reader Touch (6", PRS-600) over the counter, as opposed to mail order? 19:12:26 tic: a sony store. 19:13:03 I'd try Worst Buy, but wouldn't expect much unless I'd checked their website beforehand. 19:13:07 pkhuong, oh! thanks. I'll look at that. Another thing: is there a best-prices-aggregator for US stores? 19:13:11 tic: airport? 19:13:22 jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:13:24 s/US stores/hardware-and-stuff 19:13:34 p_l, you think? Hm. yeah, maybe. 19:13:41 Thanks guys. 19:13:50 *p_l* had seen some readers while in transfer on Schiphol 19:14:14 p_l, I groped one in Schiphol two weeks ago, that's why I want one now. :-) 19:14:35 *p_l* still wants iLliad or it's "enterprise" variant 19:14:45 h 19:14:46 i 19:14:58 I don't care it has shorter battery life, it is a full PDA with linux onboard :D 19:17:23 glogic1 [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #lisp 19:17:35 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:19:50 any stumpwm users in here ? 19:20:19 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:20:23 pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 19:20:28 Xach let me check 1 min 19:20:43 glogic2 [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #lisp 19:21:14 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@75.36.204.63] has joined #lisp 19:21:19 HET4 [n=diman@131.251.176.98] has joined #lisp 19:22:45 Xach the error I get is "blablaåäö is unbound -- bad arg for function." 19:23:11 and I know the error is because of the åäö, because when I replace them with aao, it works like a charn 19:23:17 charm 19:24:11 sayyestolife: what lisp implementation are you using? 19:24:56 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:25:11 Xach Franz Lisp 19:25:18 so allegro 19:25:27 sayyestolife: Franz Allegro Common Lisp? 19:25:30 aye 19:27:14 sayyestolife: i don't have any ideas, sorry. i don't know much about how Allegro CL handles that sort of thing. 19:27:29 tic: you don't want PRS-600, apparently, people who were in a position to compare say it's a downgrade from PRS-505 19:28:11 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:28:17 okay, Xach thanks anyway :) 19:28:30 -!- sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 19:29:37 -!- HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:29:59 -!- glogic2 [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:30:21 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:30:58 glogic2 [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #lisp 19:33:37 cmm, oh? I haven't tried the PRS-505, but I really liked PRS-600 when I used it at the airpoirt. Would those opinions be available online somewhere? 19:33:56 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:35:16 OK, a bit dim screen and weak contrast. Still, felt good enough for me and is quite cheap when bought from the US. Hm. 19:36:29 tic: well, every review says the screen is less clear. then half of them go on to say "but, but, *touchscreen*!". so I guess it comes down to whether you relly want that touchscreen (I don't see what's so great about it, but ymmv) 19:36:53 -!- glogic1 [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:37:04 -!- glogic2 [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:37:05 and yes, available in sony style stores 19:37:06 the touchscreen allows for a wide variety of features that aren't found on the non-touch models. Searching and notetaking, for instance 19:37:10 cmm, the 600 is also faster and has better firmware, plus it's cheaper (I think) than the 505. So, heh. Classical case of "can't have it all." 19:37:28 no, definitely not cheaper 19:37:36 No? 19:37:41 no 19:38:07 well meh. 19:38:11 -!- lispm [n=joswig@f054053203.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 19:38:24 glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #lisp 19:39:17 also the whole e-inc technology is kind of immature. my 505's screen died _right_ after the warranty expired, and apparently this sort of thing is common :/ 19:39:24 *e-ink 19:39:29 (load "/eoua/oehud" :if-does-not-exist nil) ==> error on SBCL 1.0.31.2. Does anyone have a recent SBCL to try that on? 19:39:51 cmm: sounds pretty mature to me. ;-) 19:40:01 They've already got the warranty tuned just right. 19:40:12 cmm, did it work well with PDFs though? main use will be "grab PDF off the 'net, put on SD card, read." 19:40:32 Fare: return nil on my 1.0.31.18 19:40:32 200 buck per year for a one-purpose gadget is a lot :) 19:40:33 Fare: WFM on SBCL 1.0.31.2 19:40:45 s/return/returns/ 19:40:45 -!- ejs [n=eugen@88-252-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:40:59 cmm, sssh! :-) 19:40:59 Linux-x86-64, that is 19:41:37 tic: the screen is too small to read pdfs as is anyway. people use the pdf2lrf program, then it's bearable (in landscape mode, at lrf speed) 19:41:57 cmm, I thought it was pretty OK, atleast in medium size on the prs-600 19:42:31 I envy your eyesight and/or enthusiasm :) 19:42:35 might be a problem with a local patch... 19:42:44 thought there were some PDFs it couldn't read. 19:42:47 cmm, hehe 19:43:00 luis: interesting that you have the same version as I... 19:43:07 I waiting for the plastic logic reader 19:44:14 isn't it supposed to be out soon? 19:44:43 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:44:50 not much on their intarwebs though. 19:46:01 mcspiff` [n=user@drmons0501w-142177077073.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:43 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-135-23.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 19:49:22 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-174-63.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 19:50:49 glogic1 [n=glogic@32.179.55.254] has joined #lisp 19:50:54 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:51:01 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:55 hmm 19:54:51 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-174-63.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:56:10 indeed, a bad local modification! 19:56:19 -!- mcdonji [n=mcdonji@70.75.0.48] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:57:49 ruediger [n=ruediger@93-82-13-87.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:58:17 -!- sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 19:58:34 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229116225.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 19:58:35 -!- TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:58:43 jlf` [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 20:00:58 glogic2 [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #lisp 20:01:09 anyone have any highly opinionated comments about clojure? 20:01:53 "clojure sucks"? 20:02:18 we should all switch to clojure 20:02:43 some smart people use it, can't be too bad 20:02:44 the opinions must actually belong to yourself... ;) 20:03:05 the latter one isn't an opinion, but probably counts as something 20:03:21 yeah... was just curious 20:03:24 now we just need a bot to tally votes 20:03:26 on conceptual level i like the fact that the different ways of saving data are part of the language 20:03:35 i.e. stm 20:03:37 clojure looks nice for a lot of practical applications. 20:03:57 It also looks like it has good principles behind its libraries 20:04:12 the main advantage I saw was the accessability of the java libraries 20:04:27 DeusExPikachu: to me clojure looks over hyped, although java integration and that it runs on a jvm is not something one should ignore in all cases 20:04:39 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 20:04:53 not that CL doesn't have this 20:05:00 otherwise, it also cuts a few corners in the design (non-hygienic macros, no proper tail calls, etc.) for the sake of ease of implementation. 20:05:33 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:05:53 for a while I was actually confused between clozure and clojure 20:06:24 wait till clojure becomes the next lisp standard, and clozure implements its clojure compiler... 20:06:37 and the closure browser is ported to it... 20:07:01 :-) 20:07:50 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:07:51 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:07:59 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:18 -!- glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:08:28 -!- glogic2 is now known as glogic 20:09:08 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:10:12 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:10:27 zeroish [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 20:10:34 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 20:10:58 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:12:24 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-30-82.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 20:12:29 I like the lisp parts of clojure... and i hate the java parts. 20:12:45 i like the java parts but hate the lisp parts 20:12:59 clearly not serious 20:13:03 I find there is more of that latter than the former in 'real world' clojure code, so i don't use clojure often. 20:13:38 yeah. having to see toString is enough to turn me away :/ 20:13:40 coliv [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has joined #lisp 20:13:41 that said, if i was forced to use a JVM language and needed the integration clojure offers, i wouldn't hesitate. 20:13:54 nobody can force you. you're on a boat! 20:13:57 (nobody is forcing me to do nothing) 20:13:59 :D 20:14:14 *glogic* is a bawse on a boat 20:14:31 *Fare* calls his somali pirate friends... 20:14:44 *glogic* answers 20:14:45 drewc's boat is a sovereign state 20:14:49 *glogic* what's up fare? 20:14:58 "Somalian pirates we!" 20:15:00 i like STM as well, and clojure has some interesting ideas for introducing conncurrent operations to lisp.... 20:15:00 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:15:13 -!- HET4 [n=diman@131.251.176.98] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:15:19 drewc: i thought that was the attraction to clojure 20:15:23 drewc: or one of them 20:15:24 i don't like the syntax or the lisp-1-ness.... 20:15:28 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:15:35 the [] for arguments is weird. 20:15:41 er, lambda list. 20:15:42 -!- nha [n=prefect@85.4.174.31] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:15:59 *Xach* supposes you can get used to just about anything, with practices 20:16:05 glogic: i think the attraction to clojure is 'it's java, not CL, so you can use it at work maybe sorta' 20:16:18 oh right, that's something that annoyed me, too. [] gets through my structure parser... 20:16:27 Xach: i code in ksh every day and i'm stull not used to the syntax :) 20:16:32 still* 20:16:49 drewc: ya i'm not sure i suspect it has a lot of appeal for various reasons, java, concurrency, libraries 20:17:25 drewc: pragmatic programmers's books 20:17:49 glogic: the _lack_ of real clojure libraries turns me off... I don't want to use some over-engineered Java crap, or a wrapper around some. ;) 20:17:55 -!- spilman [n=spilman@92.139.81.108] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:18:12 drewc: i don't know what to tell you, stick to CL? 20:18:52 i mean, it's no harder to call C from SBCL then it is to call Java from Clojure, but nobody says "there are so many libraries for SBCL because it can call C code!" 20:18:57 glogic: i do, for the most part. 20:19:00 drewc: which do you think is easier in general, importing a library via cffi or in clojure importing a library with whatever they do there 20:19:23 what do you think how difficult it is to fix that sbcl -> sbcl pty issue 20:19:26 ? 20:19:52 DeusExPikachu: for me, with almost 20 years of C and 5 years of SBCL vs almost no java and little clojure.... it's pretty obvious. 20:20:03 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 20:20:43 this sbcl bug he means: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/435960 20:20:45 DeusExPikachu: CFFI makes it _way_ too easy to import a C library :) 20:20:55 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:13 *glogic* wonders how this discussion even started in #lisp 20:21:20 in clojure you don't need to define a cffi interface before calling library code 20:21:35 you just say import blah blah and call it 20:21:42 coliv: you don't _need_ to with FFI either. 20:21:43 does clojure support JNA? 20:22:15 glogic: everything you can call from Java 20:22:34 so theoretically yes assuming someone made an interface to JNA 20:22:38 coliv: e.g : (foreign-funcall "strlen" :string "foo" :int) 20:22:38 20:22:39 my understanding is that in sbcl or other lisps you need to say what the type of each argument and return value 20:22:45 before calling a function 20:22:57 but since Java provides this information (introspection) 20:22:58 drewc: this one's for you man, try not to freak out 20:22:59 https://jna.dev.java.net/ 20:23:02 it is just a matter of calling it 20:23:20 drewc: did you coil back in horror? 20:23:36 glogic: no, not really. 20:23:48 -!- tagac [n=user@27.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has left #lisp 20:24:18 coliv: you say introspection, i say cffi-grovel... 20:24:40 I need to learn that better, cffi-grovel 20:26:10 so wiat 20:26:15 let me get this 20:26:23 clojure is awesome because of java? 20:26:31 so does that not make SISC equally as awesome? 20:26:53 glogic: or ABCL? 20:27:09 well, I don't know how cffi-grovel works, if it does introspection of C dlls then I am amazed 20:27:13 -!- mcspiff` [n=user@drmons0501w-142177077073.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:27:22 mcspiff` [n=user@drmons0501w-142177077073.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:34 drewc: good point 20:27:35 I will certainly take a look at it 20:28:24 coliv: there is no need to instrospect C dll's .. all you have to do is parse the header file. that's what a groveller does. 20:30:26 -!- glogic1 [n=glogic@32.179.55.254] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:31:10 any cl-perec users here? i'm having trouble deleting 1:n associations and this wasn't covered in pinterface's blog intro. 20:31:30 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 20:32:00 out of curiosity, how come the MOP says barely anything about customizable method combinations? is that because they're already specified in the CLHS? 20:32:45 "the MOP" = the MOP according to AMOP 20:32:54 jlf`, I can help you 20:34:16 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1BEB7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 20:34:26 jlf`, try to describe your problem 20:34:54 glogic: IMHO more important parts of clojure is various elements of STM and concurrency 20:35:26 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:36:56 levy: thanks - i recognize your nick from the comments on those articles :) in test/persistence/1-n-association.lisp i found e.g. (bind ((children (children-of* parent))) (insert-item children child) (delete-item children child) ...) but i can't find where forms like children-of* are documented. 20:38:27 jlf`, they are not documented :-( as most of cl-perec 20:38:47 levy: atm i'm trying to "fire ted", i.e. reverse the effect of (cl-perec:with-transaction (cl-perec:revive-instances *ted* *initech*) (setf (employer-of *ted*) *initech*)) in pinterface's blog.. but if i try substituting (setf (employer-of *ted*) nil) in the above i get a type error 20:38:51 they are special accessors created by mop 20:39:54 is employer defined as (or null ...)? 20:40:01 what's the url for the blog entry? 20:40:18 http://pinterface.livejournal.com/34706.html 20:40:35 the * accessors should be there for all n-ary association slots to get lazy collections 20:41:48 the association end type for the employer slot tells you that it is an employer 20:41:53 that is nil is not allowed there 20:42:01 so you can't fire that guy :-) 20:42:09 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:28 anyway, put :type (or null corporation) there 20:42:51 er I meant the type is corporation 20:42:57 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:43:24 the original type is corporation, that should be changed to (or null corporation) 20:43:33 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:44:01 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:44:13 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:44 shouldn't this be considered an error condition, since employees already exist that have no employers associated (in violation of :type corporation)? 20:46:10 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:46:21 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:46:34 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:46:38 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 20:47:17 jlf`: I wouldn't say so... employees are SET (which intuitively means that it can be empty), while employer is corporation.. 20:47:57 I was baffled by this too, but now I like explicitly stating (or null class) 20:48:44 -!- mcspiff` [n=user@drmons0501w-142177077073.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:50:30 kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:35 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:50:44 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:51:14 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:51:32 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:37 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:53:59 jlf`, hmm, I have to check it, but in principle that should generally be a type error to create a generic-guy without an employer (that is it can't be set to nil) 20:54:23 of course this has to be checked at the end of the transaction (or pushed down as a deferred database constraint) 20:54:39 mcspiff` [n=user@drmons0501w-142177077073.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:51 levy: in this case, the generic-guy already existed when the defassociation* form was evaluated 20:55:19 jlf`, well, that is unfortunately not checked 20:55:21 *mishoo* thinks ..oO( looks like I misread it... I thought the problem was about employers having no employees :-/ ) 20:56:09 fair enough.. it just confused me because it wouldn't let me put ted back into his former (legal) state 20:56:25 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:56:29 when you update the schema, the data in the database is not updated so it might violate the new constraints 20:56:43 *jlf`* nods 20:57:01 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9930.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 20:57:26 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:57:29 one more question: is it equally legitimate to do (setf (employer-of *ted*) nil) and something like (delete-item (employees-of* *initech*) *ted*) ? 20:57:50 at least perec tries to not destroy your data, but you have to be careful 20:57:51 assuming i s/:type corporation/:type (or null corporation)/ 20:58:27 jlf`, should have the exact same effect 20:59:43 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:01:02 great, thanks for your help 21:03:00 no problem 21:03:32 *levy* hopes to have some time to put up stuff about perec at http://dwim.hu/ 21:06:31 *levy* wishes to get the next contract, so he does not have to work with C++ and Java anymore 21:07:48 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:08:21 mscala [n=user@library2.wtamu.edu] has joined #lisp 21:08:44 djkthx [n=yacin@143.215.206.166] has joined #lisp 21:09:01 minion: logs 21:09:01 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 21:09:41 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@nsg93-7-88-164-172-1.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:11:16 hmm, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ points to http://meme.b9.com for searchable logs, which redirects to http://www.ircbrowse.com/, which refuses connections 21:12:15 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@143.215.206.166] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:13:59 Your best bet for searchable logs is google. 21:14:18 or grep on a local copy 21:14:39 Right, right. 21:14:46 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:56 rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:15:52 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:09 yes, i did a site search on clozure.com but came up short. i'm looking for a lightweight library to sit on top of hunchentoot to let me expose some lisp code as a web service. 21:18:21 dgou [n=dgou@c-24-23-119-48.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:33 -!- dgou [n=dgou@c-24-23-119-48.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:19:13 setheus [n=setheus@70.116.140.134] has joined #lisp 21:22:16 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.134] has quit ["so long.."] 21:23:25 -!- lukjad007 is now known as ShadowChild 21:28:35 djkthx [n=yacin@lawn-143-215-206-166.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 21:28:38 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@lawn-143-215-206-166.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 21:28:44 -!- ShadowChild is now known as lukjad007 21:30:06 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:30:11 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:30:26 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:31:05 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:32:38 did kmr say what happened to ircbrowse? 21:33:38 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:51 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:34:31 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:37 -!- felideon [n=felideon@74.186.235.232] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:36:39 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:37:07 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:37:19 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:17 newcmr [i=5803cf76@gateway/web/freenode/x-ifmncsidpmqponzf] has joined #lisp 21:39:25 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:28 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:39:29 Geralt1 [n=Geralt@p5B32E391.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:47 -!- Geralt1 is now known as Geralt 21:40:37 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-9930.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:43:01 djkthx [n=yacin@lawn-143-215-206-166.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 21:44:24 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229116225.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:45:26 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@93-82-13-87.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:47:49 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:52:10 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 21:53:44 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-174-63.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 21:54:31 jlf`: have you taken a look at cxml-rpc? 21:56:05 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-174-63.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [Client Quit] 21:56:35 rares [n=rares@130.13.174.63] has joined #lisp 21:57:52 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:00:28 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:39 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:04:06 -!- redb1ue [i=star@ppp081.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:04:07 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:04:15 -!- Blay [i=Blay@BSN-143-220-44.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [] 22:05:09 -!- newcmr [i=5803cf76@gateway/web/freenode/x-ifmncsidpmqponzf] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:08:48 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 22:10:18 pkhuong: no, i haven't, and my search failed. have you a link? 22:10:57 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-244.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 22:12:38 jlf - i was doing this sometime back - and this isnt terribly hard using hunchentoot handlers themselves 22:12:44 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 22:13:00 if youre passing in small amounts of data you can encode the parameters into the url 22:13:11 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:13:27 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:13:33 otherwise you can pass in json to the handler and use cl-json to decode the json. in either case its very straightforward 22:15:03 francogrex [n=user@91.177.140.114] has joined #lisp 22:15:21 jlf`: google has links. 22:15:32 hey! finally could get linux working and I did waht I always wanted to do: install emacs+cmucl 22:15:33 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:22 pkhuong: doh, i saw only the "did you mean" links and the rest were below the fold. sorry. 22:17:02 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:17:19 francogrex: why cmucl? 22:17:48 because i heard it's the best the fatests 22:17:55 I already have sbcl 22:18:03 Dawgmatix_: i started down that road with cl-json, but i thought that using an existing library might force me into a more standard interface than i would come up with on my own, being unfamiliar with implementing web services 22:19:10 okay, i dont know what your deadline is and how complicated the service will be 22:19:29 if its non trivial, then use a library, otherwise just write a couple of lines of code and move on 22:19:36 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@78-69-144-82-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:20:05 *jlf`* nods 22:21:00 peddie [n=peddie@c-67-170-201-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:42 ok just wanted to say that. see you later, time to sleep 22:21:49 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.177.140.114] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:22:42 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:25:56 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-237.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:26:20 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 22:26:48 -!- addled [n=adlirc@209.20.68.236] has left #lisp 22:29:11 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:29:40 benny` [n=benny@i577A0C2A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:31:44 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-1-105.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:32:25 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0BCA.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:32:38 -!- mscala [n=user@library2.wtamu.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:33:03 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:33:09 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229116225.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 22:33:56 -!- benny` is now known as benny 22:34:22 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:35:21 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:20 -!- peddie_ [n=peddie@c-67-170-201-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:37:58 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:39:44 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:39:45 mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:53 -!- jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 22:40:01 -!- mattrepl_ is now known as mattrepl 22:41:10 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824085414]"] 22:41:25 after a long day, there's a new version of http://dwim.hu/ 22:41:30 enjoy 22:42:26 there's a new hello world demo for wui 22:43:51 :) 22:44:13 i just made my browser window out of sync (without using the back button) 22:44:51 looks cool :) 22:44:55 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:46:04 Dawgmatix_, this site uses stateful server side components 22:46:28 so the back button is not usable, but we provide other ways of navigation 22:46:54 this site is only touching the surface of wui and other dwim libraries 22:48:14 i mentioned that i hadnt used the back button when i got the message 22:48:23 i tried since to replicate the problem but havent been able to 22:48:39 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:48:45 Numlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 22:49:09 Dawgmatix_, oh, sorry, it's getting late, my mind is probably sleeping 22:49:15 I'm just not aware of it 22:49:16 okay gnite :) 22:49:29 yeah, you're right 22:49:30 bb 22:50:31 hey guys 22:50:45 how do I get a literal \r\n written out to a stream? 22:52:43 Something like #\Return #\Newline, right? 22:52:51 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:52:51 write (string '(#\Return #\Linefeed)) 22:53:11 clhs 13.1.7 22:53:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/13_ag.htm 22:53:25 note that these are "semi-standard" 22:53:25 kpreid: thanks 22:53:27 redline6561: #\Newline itself could be \r\n, I believe. 22:53:35 pkhuong: yeah that was what I was hung up on 22:53:45 -!- milanj- [n=milan@93.87.150.100] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:53:47 Also, this is interesting: An implementation must translate between #\Newline, a single-character representation, and whatever external representation(s) may be used. 22:54:39 so Windows CL implementations *must* provide that translation... 22:55:12 good night 22:55:23 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@77.6.196.85] has quit ["good fight, good night"] 22:55:33 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 22:55:36 hm 22:55:39 still doesn't seem to be working 22:55:45 :/ 22:55:53 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:13 -!- Numlock is now known as PissedNumlock 22:57:05 *Ralith* will check how cl-irc does it 22:58:19 Ralith: the safest way to do it is probably to open a binary stream and build the rest on top of it (like flexi-streams) 22:59:17 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:59:28 pkhuong: I'm using a usocket stream, don't think I can work around that 22:59:42 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:19 pkhuong: Thanks. 23:01:54 Ralith: it's probably overkill for your needs (but maybe not, especially if you want to use a binary protocol that's mostly ASCII, e.g. HTTP), but you can ask usocket for a binary stream (element-type (unsigned-byte 8) for example) and wrap that in a flexi-stream. 23:02:25 jamesmkukla [n=jmk@74.207.227.87] has joined #lisp 23:02:53 pkhuong: no other way to reliably write these? :/ 23:04:00 perhaps there's an inverse to char-code? 23:04:16 Ralith: code-char. 23:05:31 pkhuong: 'tis a shame to advise building your own than replacing all that duplicated work with improving cl implementations... 23:05:38 pkhuong: that seems like it'd work, then 23:07:11 kpreid: if it were a design contest, I definitely wouldn't build my own, but for a quick hack, I could see how importing flexi-streams could be a tad too heavy (but who cares about portability then?). 23:07:12 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@pool-71-186-135-89.bflony.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:07:37 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:07:42 Sorry, I mean using flexi-streams = 'building your own' 23:08:25 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 23:08:54 if I were advocating another language, I would point and laugh. "Their language implementations are lousy - they have to reimplement stuff just to be portable" 23:08:55 ah. One has the advantage of being available today. But I'm sure whatever implementation Ralith is currently using would like a bug report and love a patch ;) 23:09:27 kpreid: you mean the standard is underspecified for today's environment? 23:09:39 no. 23:10:18 I mean that not every implementation conforms to the standard, which *does* specify appropriate behavior in this case. 23:10:58 (there are other cases where the standard is underspecified or specifies inappropriate behavior) 23:11:28 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:11:47 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-135-23.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:11:56 hm. 23:11:57 this is odd 23:12:03 kpreid: "whatever external representation(s) ..." Where does that specify that it should be possible to get \r\n line endings? 23:12:13 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-31-93.2073154325.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:37 (format (socket-stream socket) "~a~a~a" the-command (code-char 13) (code-char 10)) is not working either 23:13:07 pkhuong: because the external representation being used uses \r\n. 23:13:28 Ralith: how can you tell? 23:13:44 pkhuong: server doesn't respond. 23:13:58 while it does to a netcat session 23:14:10 MrPelo [n=chatzill@dynamic-adsl-94-36-221-208.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 23:14:17 can't think of anything else different between the netcat session and this :/ 23:14:20 Ralith: buffering? Have you tried using a port sniffer to see what is actually sent? 23:14:34 sure you're reading input correctly? sure you're doing read and write in parallel (not deadlocking)? 23:14:53 kpreid: I'm reading input correctly, because I get the server's init messages. 23:15:07 I'm not doing anything in parallel... 23:15:22 pkhuong: good plan, checking 23:15:38 then you have a deadlock possibility 23:16:22 pkhuong: flushing did the trick! 23:16:25 kpreid: huh? how? 23:16:33 well ... actually, the irc server is unlikely to insist that you accept its messages before accepting your messages ... more likely to just drop them 23:17:06 but it's generally a good idea when implementing async network protocols to make the reading and writing independent. 23:17:33 I haven't the slightest idea how to do that in CL 23:18:08 will be parallelizing eventually, but it'd be interesting to know how to do singlethreaded simultaneous I/O in CL 23:18:14 never done that outside of a C-like 23:18:24 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@77-21-138-135-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:19:10 Ralith: deadlock because half of each message is in a buffer, etc. 23:19:35 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 23:19:36 kpreid: but the standard doesn't guarantee that a DOS-end-of-line external format is available. 23:20:04 if you're running on DOS, it is certainly the external format being used. 23:20:18 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:23 -!- MrPelo [n=chatzill@dynamic-adsl-94-36-221-208.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.14/2009082707]"] 23:20:25 sorry 23:20:34 the external *representation* being used. 23:20:40 *Ralith* pokes kpreid 23:20:43 can you explain how? 23:20:53 use threads or iolib 23:20:58 iolib? 23:21:12 minion: iolib? 23:21:17 iolib: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 23:21:27 minion: iolib? 23:21:32 common-lisp.net/project/iolib 23:21:33 iolib: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 23:21:44 minion: ur net iz broken 23:21:49 ur net iz broken: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 23:21:53 lol 23:22:01 kpreid: okay, thanks. 23:22:01 kpreid: seems to me that's for network I/O on a not-necessarily-DOS OS. 23:22:22 I was explaining async send/receive, not external formats 23:22:32 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:22:50 kpreid: right, but the use case here isn't even necessarily on an OS that normally uses DOS EOL. 23:23:18 granted, the situation on win32 is pretty bad. 23:23:24 true. my original remark does not apply. it was made before I was certain it was about IRC :) 23:24:19 although I would perversely add that half of my files when I was win32 had unix lines. 23:25:53 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 23:26:25 kpreid: when did you work out it was IRC, anyway :P 23:27:11 Ralith: my guess? when you mentionned cl-irc. 23:27:42 oh right. 23:27:44 forgot about that 23:27:44 yah. 23:28:42 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-68-125-52-195.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:18 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441929.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:31:48 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:34 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:35:43 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:35:50 -!- gz_ [n=gz@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:36:10 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 23:42:43 -!- rares [n=rares@130.13.174.63] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:43:28 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 23:45:32 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-174-63.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 23:45:45 -!- jikanter [n=jordan@24-148-12-119.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:46:06 Dawgmatix__ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:20 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0C2A.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:47:31 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.210.80] has joined #lisp 23:47:44 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@75.36.204.63] has quit [] 23:49:30 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:43 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.164.121] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:51:12 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.164.121] has joined #lisp 23:54:27 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-84-210.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:54:37 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:55:56 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 23:56:50 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["leaving"] 23:57:06 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:57:33 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-174-63.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:58:07 (/ current-round 3) gives me 4/3 but I want 1 just like it would be in C.... 23:58:27 Retardedpope: truncate. 23:58:30 (/ current-round 3.0) ? 23:59:40 thank you