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has joined #lisp 00:23:29 kingless [n=user@adsl-144-140-128.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:03 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@79.240.191.68] has quit [Client Quit] 00:29:29 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@68.126.198.233] has joined #lisp 00:34:17 -!- HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:34:21 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 00:35:36 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-80.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:36:41 Demosthenes [n=demo@c-76-124-82-88.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:06 -!- brad_ [i=48597c07@gateway/web/freenode/x-myctyvmmdajjkbvn] has quit ["Page closed"] 00:46:33 http://projecteuler.net/index.php?section=problems&id=9 -- hmm, the answer to this is a bit long. 00:47:03 Kinda computationally expensive too, but I guess .23 seconds isn't bad 00:49:14 If others want to compare answers again, like we did earlier, let me know and I'll put my code up on paste. 00:55:35 -!- 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02:13:18 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:14:05 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 02:20:31 elderK [n=zk@122-57-243-228.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:25:58 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:27:01 weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 02:31:55 -!- elderK [n=zk@122-57-243-228.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [] 02:35:22 -!- isabellf [n=isabellf@bas2-montreal31-1242480105.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["Parti"] 02:39:41 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.131.199] has joined #lisp 02:42:04 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:43:16 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:46:24 -!- thunk [n=user@96-28-112-51.dhcp.insightbb.com] has left #lisp 02:47:43 sorry for offtopic 02:47:45 Aszarsha_ [n=aszarsha@88-122-114-172.rev.libertysurf.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:05 are there any good computer rpgs beside fallout 1 and 2, arcanum and planescape torment? 02:48:47 Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.72.42] has joined #lisp 02:51:29 ultima IV is still my favorite 02:51:50 though Ultima V and VI are not too bad either. 02:52:48 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:48 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 02:54:40 no one makes good RPGs anymore because they don't sell well; it's only garbage like oblivion or neverwinter nights 02:59:35 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.52.211.171] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:00:27 weirdo, back when music was for the rich elite, they made music for the taste of the rich elite. Now that music money is in the hands of the ignorant uneducated public, they make crass music that appeals to the ignorant and uneducated. 03:00:34 same goes for RPGs 03:00:44 some call that "democratization" 03:00:55 or for programming languages, for the matter 03:05:52 -!- Aszarsha [n=aszarsha@83-154-172-179.rev.libertysurf.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 03:07:03 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:07:34 Fallout 3 is good 03:10:54 Adamant, this is heresy 03:11:23 I'm a fan of Hello Kitty Island Adventure 03:11:27 *int80_h* ducks 03:11:32 it's an utter waste of space with dialogue written by twelve-year-olds 03:11:43 Hello Kitty Island Adventure??? 03:11:57 Is that related to Hello Cthulhu? 03:12:01 weirdo: don't be one of those angry NMA dudes 03:12:23 I went into F3 thinking it would suck but it was OK. 03:12:42 it was more like a shooter with minor RPG elements 03:13:18 there were about 10 optional quests, come on 03:13:30 even oblivion had better writing... 03:13:33 I thought the targeting system made it more RPG-like 03:14:02 more like the original Fallouts and not just a shooter 03:14:04 i don't participate in neither DAC nor NMA but i'm pretty close 03:14:16 It's interesting seeing the conversion of programming languages. 03:14:30 yeah. /me shuts up 03:14:40 Javascript seems to be pretty close to what people want to use. 03:14:59 Zhivago, what's missing according to you? 03:15:17 lisp is what's missing! 03:15:48 Well, there's always a variation when you have a group involved. 03:16:04 you could merge a lot of Javascript/Ruby/Lua into one language 03:16:14 But you can see a general agreement on single-dispatch polymorphism, garbage collection, inheritance, generators. 03:16:52 The only controvertial thing javascript has is that it is all message processing oriented. 03:17:18 And, while that's a bit annoying, it seems to keep stupid people out of trouble. 03:18:00 it inherited that in advance from it's namesake-in-retrospect... 03:18:43 timchen1` [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has joined #lisp 03:18:52 As I get older I appreciate more and more the 'keeping stupid people out of trouble' aspect of language design. 03:18:58 -!- timchen1` is now known as nasloc__ 03:19:52 Possibly due to an increasing appreciation of my own stupidity. 03:22:03 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:22:31 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:26 I don't use multiple dispatch all that often, but when I do, I'm sure glad I don't have to emulate it with single-dispatch 03:30:36 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@75.55.215.89] has joined #lisp 03:32:18 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 03:32:43 Demosthenes [n=demo@c-76-124-82-88.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:14 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 03:37:12 Sure, but a more interesting question is -- why do we see a convergance upon single-dispatch? Is it just an effect of naive implementation? 03:39:10 everyone imitating java/C++ is my guess 03:40:39 is this a valid slot definition? (foo :reader foo-of :accessor foo-of)? 03:40:51 because LW barfs on it 03:41:29 weirdo: :accessor implies :reader 03:41:40 Do you mean :writer ? 03:41:46 Zhivago, no, i mean what i wrote 03:42:10 my macro erroneously generated such a definition, and LW barfed, while sbcl DTRT 03:42:52 *ilitirit* 's experience is that lispworks is generally very correct in its interpretation of the standard 03:44:46 Zhivago: naive implementation goes a long way 03:44:57 Fare: Sure. 03:45:10 worse is better and all that 03:45:31 and then you're locked in by your early "optimizations" 03:45:45 Fare: On the other hand, maybe this is actually (closer to) what people actually want, generally speaking. 03:45:48 Demosthenex [n=demo@c-76-124-82-88.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:48 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-222-47.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:46:17 most of the time, most people want something dead simple 03:46:34 crud :P hotel networks. 03:46:38 the problem being how do you gracefully evolve from the simple case to the complete case. 03:46:51 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:47:00 Some languages have a low glass ceiling. 03:47:09 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.72.42] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:48:40 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:48:40 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.82.19] has joined #lisp 03:49:05 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:49:48 when I start a program I don't want any dispatch at all. 03:50:11 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 03:50:21 *Fare* is recurrently frustrated at writing shell scripts -- very low barrier to entry, very low glass ceiling. 03:51:41 how about the clsh or whatever it was called? #[here be bash] ? 03:52:08 tic: never went very far 03:52:13 but yes, I want a clsh 03:52:46 the problem is to make it non-obtrusive... the beauty of shell, obviously, is that you don't have to escape commands. 03:55:06 speaking of shell scripts, i still need to "quiet" down my sbcl code :P 03:56:29 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B838.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 03:58:15 uh? 03:58:24 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:58:25 as in (setf *load-verbose* nil) ? 03:58:32 and sbcl --noinform ? 03:59:07 tic: I'm alright if my shell has a DSL with a shorthand syntax 03:59:26 Fare, alright. 03:59:45 I'm not OK if I can't go back to a real programming language when I need it, while manipulating the same data. 04:00:01 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 04:00:02 i love it, "python is slow but people use it because chips are fast now", *laugh* 04:00:15 the goes for perl too, you know 04:00:19 mhm. the problem is moving between the programming language and the scripts, e.g. stdin/stdout. 04:01:40 tic: if the shell was a DSL inside lisp, you wouldn't have to move anything 04:02:10 Fare, I'm thinking of the call-external-command function you'd need. 04:02:25 Fare: i have sbcl --script (implies noinform as i recall), *load-verbose* nil, and *error-output* and *standard-error* set to /dev/null, and yet i still get at least 3 ASDF lines on STDOUT 04:02:35 Fare, you want to execute a command and get any of its return code, stdout and/or stderr. 04:02:39 Demosthenes, the solution is to use cl-launch :) 04:03:13 tic: and manage redirections 04:03:31 pipes 04:03:45 right. I'm not saying it's a hard problem in of itself, you just have to find a usable syntax. 04:03:52 i really didn't want another layer, i was hoping i could simply reduce the output 04:04:18 Good morning! 04:06:24 currently the syntax isn't the problem - the problem is the playing well with the guts of your lisp 04:06:49 Not sure what you mean here 04:07:16 things like wait(2) handling has to be integrated deep into your implementation's event loop. 04:07:29 pipes have to play well with your implementation's streams. 04:07:39 Hm. 04:08:05 even forking isn't reliably possible when your implementation uses threads (e.g. CCL). 04:08:22 (SBCL only spawns threads if you ask it to) 04:08:33 Surely a naive implementation just performing everything serially needn't consider that? Granted, it might not be /super nice/, but better than nothing? 04:09:34 surely. 04:09:46 you know how perfectionists some of us are, though 04:10:08 lpolzer [n=sky@dslb-088-073-236-207.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:09 Perfectionists? Us? Nowai. 04:10:38 lazy perfectionist lacking skill, there is certainly one... 04:10:50 *p_l* whimpers and hides 04:10:55 +1 04:11:15 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:32 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@c-76-124-82-88.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:11:34 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:11:42 Dunno, lately I'm more into "build the imperfect" rather than "plan the perfect [and not build anything]" 04:11:57 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 04:12:19 I don't see the two as incompatible 04:12:27 but yes, "build the imperfect" is important 04:12:30 They seem to be for me. 04:12:33 then it's a matter of priority 04:12:52 it's a case of doing things now, with a perspective on where you want to be eventually 04:13:01 or rather, I /can't/ often build the perfect, because the actual requirements [for anything non-trivial] discern themselves when I actually get started. 04:13:04 Mhm. 04:13:07 if you have no perspective, you'll just do crap 04:13:17 if you don't do things now, you'll never get there. 04:14:37 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:14:50 CLSH is high on my todo list, but some XCVB work is more urgent still 04:15:14 last year, I was hoping to build some interest into CL hackers to help with XCVB. I've lost this hope. 04:15:26 "build it and they will come"? 04:15:39 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:15:41 does ibm make a commercial lisp? 04:15:44 "build it and you can do stuff". 04:15:53 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-67.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:15:55 Demosthenex, no 04:16:23 tic: I used to believe that -- now I accept to only live by what Zhivago says. 04:16:32 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@76.104.220.73] has joined #lisp 04:16:51 http://www.cbronline.com/news/cognitive_uses_ibm_lisp_to_put_bank_suite_on_370s?print=1 refers to "IBM's C-Lisp" 04:16:56 As long as you're happy with that, I guess.. 04:17:01 but i can't find mention of it on ibm's site 04:17:47 tic: I would be happier if I were worshipped as a god by a large following. But I'm settling for less. 04:18:20 Demosthenex, "new common-lisp"... but the article is dated 1988. 04:18:48 i saw 04:18:55 back in the days when Lisp was "in" 04:19:05 chavo_ [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:02 impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176440857.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:20:27 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:20:48 Fare, can't always have it all. Kids these days use Ruby; maybe you can write a replacement for Gems (which seems to annoy people). 04:21:12 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:21:34 tic: I thought I would. But I realize that things are much harder than I wished them to be. 04:21:54 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 04:25:44 -!- lpolzer_ [n=sky@dslb-088-073-230-228.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:28:19 *ilitirit* wonders how the lisp movement ran so conclusively out of steam 04:28:52 because it attracts a special kind of people only? 04:29:10 you mean, quitters? 04:29:42 all the while CL not being at the border of the convex hull of what programming languages do 04:29:50 they made an ansi standard, and then lost all heart . . . as if accepting that it was all wrong 04:29:59 not at the border, not in the middle -- lost in a weird land 04:30:36 Fare: I'm sure the AI winter didn't help. 04:30:46 from what I'm told, that's what killed lisp in academia. 04:30:54 maybe it was because it was hyped so much, as if it would solve AI, and when it didn't people felt fooled 04:31:10 they blamed lisp for AI's failure. 04:32:00 maybe there is some truth to that :) 04:32:08 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176440857.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 04:32:15 Consider what happens to a discredited cult's followers. 04:32:17 ln5 [n=ln5@h174n7c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 04:32:29 Most move on to something else, becoming disillusioned. 04:32:45 Some others become fanatically devoted. 04:33:18 wish they had promoted it just a slightly less sucky language that was suitable for building complex systems . . . instead of the miracle cure to everything 04:33:43 And you can see some of that fanaticism in the conservativism in the last few decades of lisp. 04:33:57 I think they're starting to die now, and things are becoming more fluid. 04:34:10 Zhivago: and there's plenty of new people coming along. 04:34:26 yeah, nowadays people worship the ansi standard as if it wasn't a crippled compromise . . . 04:34:38 i think the best example you can point to of why Lisp failed is Scheme 04:34:45 at ITA I see this contrast between the old guard and the new wave 04:34:52 and the conflicts, sometimes 04:34:58 (such as over the choice of CCL vs SBCL) 04:35:02 in that, while Scheme could have been a genuine attempt to modernize Lisp and make it relevant, it was co-opted by people who just wanted to make it cute 04:35:30 There are always new people, yes. 04:35:43 ilitirit: I think there's a certain level to which it's important to stick to the standard. I don't think arbitrary matters of taste are a reason to clobber CL. 04:35:49 impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176440857.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:35:54 well, CL was too heavy and unwieldy. Language researchers moved to the lighter weight thing of which it was easier to make compilers and variants. 04:36:06 Fare: hence Scheme, and the subsequent fail 04:36:22 the CL grown industry died with the AI winter, taking with it the old guard of non-academics. 04:36:57 sykopomp, i was talking about things like the half-hinted at generalized sequences, the weirdness with "bound declarations" etc. 04:37:17 remaining old-style "AI" academics stayed with Lisp out of conservatism and familiarity, but not being language guys, didn't evolve it 04:37:30 ilitirit: I'm mostly complaining about the whole "OH GOD CAR IS STILL AROUND... we need a new language!" 04:37:33 or some of them evolved it in a very personal and unsharable way 04:37:34 sohail [n=sohail@69-165-139-44.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 04:38:12 ilitirit: or such things as having an extensible sequences protocol, which doesn't require that much changing of the spec. 04:38:42 eihrul, have you followed the latest split in the Scheme community, precisely between the r5rs "minimal language" purists and r6rs "big language" modernizers, culminating in the dual-language proposal for r7rs? 04:38:55 Fare: The opposite end of the scale is the people who just completely turn the table over instead of focusing on improvement. 04:39:03 Fare, yeah, there are a surprising number of almost-common-lisps used for specific projects -- like gensym or Euslisp 04:39:12 Fare: i haven't really followed it, but i saw the fact that they now had two standards, and i thought that was an instant trainwreck :) 04:39:32 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176440857.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 04:39:41 r7rs can be either great or a death signal 04:39:54 well, what can it kill? 04:39:58 scheme was never really alive :P 04:40:16 eihrul: it's been quiet alive in some niches 04:40:22 although it's been dying a horrible death in academia. 04:40:27 well, by alive i mean in the mainstream, not niche 04:40:32 the coup de grace being MIT's dropping of 6.001 04:40:41 which is sort of the guillotine for scheme in academia. 04:40:43 since niche usage is not enough to sustain something long-term 04:40:54 eihrul: worked pretty well for what, two decades? 04:41:05 and scheme is certainly not dead, despite your perceptions. 04:41:32 zombified might be a better term :P 04:41:36 I disagree. 04:41:39 *ilitirit* cannot fathom the causes of the haskell fad in academia :-( 04:41:53 A zombie language would be one that's reduced to only a couple of users. 04:42:00 by a couple, I mean less than double-digits. 04:42:02 Scheme is currently in one of those design space limbos that tend to kill off languages 04:42:15 I can't imagine scheme having less than at least a couple thousand users. 04:42:18 which is healthy enough, imo. 04:42:27 -!- ln5 [n=ln5@h174n7c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:42:37 maybe if we give it another few years, we'll get Common Scheme 04:42:41 :D 04:43:27 sykopomp, would that be the big one or the small one? 04:43:29 but the quality of implementations will always be behind what is available for C/Java, etc. 04:43:50 Fare: the worst possible scenario: The common case across the more popular schemes. 04:44:16 so basically, whatever the least common denominator is between PLT, Chicken, etc, with PLT calling the shots about the main stuff like MacLisp did :) 04:44:27 and of course, threatening to pull out constantly unless it gets its way. 04:44:29 :D 04:44:42 Fare: but playing devil's advocate, look at C, it is a smallish language that has spread like a virus precisely because people chose to make a whole bunch of new languages based on it rather than extend it 04:45:17 eihrul: or maybe it's that pesky Unix thing. 04:45:36 because, you know, most code out there in sourceforge is actually C code. Not even necessarily language compilers :) 04:46:01 Hmm. Scheme used to stand out as an elegant language that really shone in its usefulness for functional programming... I'm not sure Haskell has quite replaced it there, but it's sure stolen a lot of its thunder 04:47:34 it's a teaching language. 04:47:53 C spread like a virus because it was about programming a real computer, not about some weird philosophy :) 04:47:58 sykopomp: Scheme, or Haskell? :p 04:48:07 Makoryu: scheme. 04:48:13 ilitirit: there is the fact that C is immensely useful and has lovely implementations, yes 04:48:34 haskell seems to be more of a functional programming proponent's wet dream that they're trying to push into practical-land. 04:49:59 C also has the advantage of being the nearest thing there is to a "portable assembler" 04:50:23 it's lacking the 5% of features where you really need an assembler - tail calls, GC, interruptible threads, etc. 04:50:44 if you're serious about programming your computer you need to be able to drop into an assembler, and C provides that ability semi-portably 04:50:44 but there is boehm gc, pthreads, and tail call extensions 04:50:50 so even those 5%, you are covered :) 04:50:57 but even these things you can achieve at a penalty on top of C that still leaves you ahead of what you could do for the same effort in assembly 04:51:31 in all Lisps I know, it is a real PITA if you want to use an instruction that is not already supported by the Lisp 04:52:03 pthreads are not interruptible, but with some cooperative respect for conventions involving semi-expensive locks, you can still achieve asynchronous behaviour. 04:52:16 Oh yeah, there's also Clojure, which is sort of like Scheme but with cooler stuff built on top and a fair amount of positive press 04:53:17 Makoryu, Clojure is interesting by its interface with java and its extensive library of datastructures and concurrency support that work well with java in addition to being well-designed. 04:54:37 Fare: Yeah. I left out some stuff. 04:54:46 okay, so what is wrong with Clojure? ;) 04:54:47 ,clhs make-string 04:54:51 clhs make-string 04:54:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_stg.htm 04:55:08 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:55:32 eihrul: It's not a Lisp-2, it doesn't compile directly to native code, it doesn't have FORMAT or LOOP, it doesn't work with *any* of the existing CL libraries... 04:55:43 ilitirit: what do you mean by "instruction that is not already supported by the lisp"? 04:56:15 eihrul: It doesn't seem to have a community package system yet (not that you need one when you have Java) 04:56:26 I seem to remember there being a single function that could be used to create a string of a given size and set the fill pointer to zero 04:56:31 anyone know of cuh a thing? 04:56:34 such* 04:57:05 eihrul: Oh, and it runs on the JVM, and The JVM Is Bad. 04:57:20 eihrul: There, pretty sure I covered all the major arguments, including insane troll arguments. 04:57:27 Makoryu: the lisp-2 thing i think can be overlooked, and given that you're going to java bytecode, you can either be JIT compiled or statically compiled 04:57:33 rme, for example, if you want to use bsr (bit scan reverse) x86 insn, in C you can shove in an asm(...) but in ccl, for example how would you use it? 04:57:45 eihrul: These aren't *my* opinions :p 04:57:48 and the java libraries at this point are fairly extensive and beneficial in their own right beyond a lot of the stuff CL provides 04:58:22 i mean, it seems like you could live with it in the end :P 04:58:22 eihrul: For example, I'm really irritated with the way that Lisp-2s impede using a functional style 04:59:12 Makoryu: okay, how so? 04:59:16 because you have to use funcall? 04:59:17 ilitirit: FFI? :P 04:59:48 sykopomp: Yes. It's extra verbosity. I could write a macro to make it shorter, but then that would confuse people. 05:00:05 Makoryu: I rarely ever have to use funcall itself. 05:00:13 usually, I'm passing functions to higher-order functions. 05:00:30 Makoryu, Clojure doesn't have hygienic macros or proper tail calls, it's a bit slow at times, but still a nice practical Lisp. 05:00:35 Makoryu: with respect to JVM being bad, in the end you are limited to the set of optimizations the JVM provides, which, in the case of JVM, may be far beyond what most lisp implementations provide, but on the other hand other low hanging fruit lisp implementations get easily might be missing 05:00:36 so it seems like a bogus argument against lisp-2, imo 05:00:42 sykopomp: Right. And most things you would use a HOF for in other languages are instead macros in CL 05:00:56 sykopomp: I didn't say it was an argument. It's an opinion. 05:00:57 Makoryu: oh? 05:01:04 eihrul, the overhead of jumping to another function (especially with the nonsense to do lisp-C transitions) kind of destroys the point of inline assembly . . . 05:01:17 Makoryu, lack of proper tail calls (the only impediment to functional style) is quite independent from Lisp-2-ness 05:01:20 so what kind of stuff -must- be a macro in CL? 05:01:27 ilitirit: the overhead of doing a lot of things in lisp sort of destroys the point of inline assembly 05:01:43 sykopomp, things that deal with places? 05:01:50 sykopomp, defining forms? 05:01:59 Fare: Wait, so when did hygienic macros start being a good thing? 05:02:17 sykopomp, forms that manipulate bindings? 05:02:26 (gensym) is tolerable 05:02:26 ilitirit, that would be implementation dependent (using inline asm), but there's some interesting work that was done in that direction, for example movitz has an assembler, which can generate x86 code dynamically (and the generation part is portable ansi cl). As for actually turning that asm code into a piece of code which you can funcall, that it is probably implementation dependent 05:02:43 Makoryu, when you want to put several layers of stuff on top of your language 05:02:46 Fare: defining forms? You mean forms that actually provide special syntax? Even scheme uses special syntax for those. 05:02:47 rme pasted "bsr on ccl" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87419 05:02:48 -!- TDT [n=dthole@254.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has quit [] 05:02:56 sykopomp: If I'm juggling stuff from list to list, there are tons of ways to do it with standard macros that are shorter than with MAPCAR + LAMBDA 05:03:05 (Or whatever other HOF) 05:03:17 and how do you deal with a concept such as places just by having a higher-order function? 05:03:45 Makoryu: these are not issues with lisp-2 05:03:50 rme: where in the CCL source can I see how do interpret those "assembly" instructions? 05:04:02 you'll run into map+lambda verbosity with scheme, as well. 05:04:05 rme: once again ccl demonstrates its clean design, congrats -- the equiv is pretty nasty in sbcl afaik (lots of steps, defknown, etc.) 05:04:08 sykopomp, you implement places as higher-order functions - a reader and a writer 05:04:19 painful, but possible 05:04:20 Adlai: look in ccl:level-0;X86; 05:04:26 rme: thanks! 05:04:28 Fare: exactly. Painful. But that's not an issue with lisp-2 05:04:35 I can implement those in CL, too. 05:04:52 sykopomp: These standard macros are ways in which Lisp-2-ness is not really an issue. 05:04:57 -!- int80_h [n=michael@unaffiliated/int80h/x-0283782] has quit ["leaving"] 05:05:11 Makoryu: how is lisp-2 an issue? 05:05:14 I'm totally missing that. 05:05:20 sykopomp: It's not. 05:05:41 You have to be careful not to violate the runtime's assumptions, though. The main thing is to be aware that you can gc at any instruction boundary. 05:06:02 I asked what problem lisp-2 causes for functional-style programming, not what problems CL usually introduces (because of its obvious preference for procedural code) 05:06:36 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:07:06 CL's special variables are seldom implemented in a proper-tail-call-friendly way (like continuation marks in PLT) 05:08:03 but not a problem with Lisp-2 05:08:13 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:08:35 sykopomp: CL's standard control structure macros are not a "problem" that I'm complaining about. They're a solution commonly used in CL for many problems I'm used to solving with functional programming. 05:09:01 sykopomp: They are also a solution for a huge range of other problems. 05:11:35 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp173.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:12:39 sykopomp: So, I can't legitimately say that CL is any less powerful or concise for being a Lisp-2. On the other hand, I don't have to like it :p 05:12:47 The Lisp-2-ness, I mean. 05:13:05 Makoryu, I used to not like it until I wrote a pattern-matcher 05:13:15 and then it made a lot of sense 05:13:31 I think there's some corner cases when one excels obviously over the other, but it seems to be that for the most part, it's a matter of taste. 05:13:42 Lisp-1-ness doesn't make sense without hygiene 05:13:44 Fare: what was nice about lisp2+fare-matcher? 05:13:49 Excuse my ignorance, but how are special variables usually implemented by a compiler? Especially how does the value rebinding usually work(such as (progn (defprameter *var* 123) (let ((*var*)) (some-fun)))? I should probably just examine the code generated by some implementation using DISASSEMBLE, instead of asking this question here. 05:13:49 ah 05:14:19 sykopomp, it allows to easily distinguish variables from pattern constructs 05:14:51 sykopomp, is (a b c) a list of three variables, or is a a magic macro that has a special meaning? 05:15:10 with a lisp-1, the hell you know - you better look at the whole environment 05:15:39 with a lisp-2, a is always different from b and c 05:15:57 ljames: If you have a single-threaded environment, you can just use a stack per variable. 05:16:32 ljames: Things get more complicated with threads, because the tradition is that bindings are thread-specific whereas the global value is shared among threads. 05:16:38 beach: and so a stack per variable per thread 05:16:40 ah 05:16:48 http://trac.clozure.com/openmcl/wiki/Internals/DynamicBinding is some notes I made about how ccl does it; it might be a little hard to understand, but it might give you an idea. 05:16:50 so, you have some sort of thread local storage? 05:16:51 Fare: If it werent for the global value, yes. 05:16:55 ljames: yes 05:17:02 rme: is it safe wrt tail calls? 05:17:23 Fare: ^ Yeah. Clojure gets around this by having a concise way of referring to names in the "root" scope of the current namespace 05:17:56 (It also throws an error if you try to get the value of a macro) 05:17:57 -!- ski [n=slj@c-9011e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:18:04 (Dunno how much use that is, really) 05:18:16 i.e. does (labels ((a () (let ((*a* (1+ *a*))) (format t "~A~%" *a*) (a))) (a)) cons and die or not cons and keep running? 05:18:58 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A0624.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:19:04 ljames: The trick though is to map a symbol name to a stack. You could use a hash table per thread, but that would be pretty slow. 05:19:14 beach: that's just a special behavior when the stack is empty 05:19:33 Fare: Sure. 05:19:55 rme: so this means that creating n special variables can cause memory usage m*n, where m is the number of threads, and each thread only uses one special variable? 05:19:58 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:20:46 Fare, is there any implementation where it does not cons and die? 05:21:00 ljames: One thing I came up with was to number all the special variables from 0 and up, store the number in the symbol itself, and have each thread use a vector of variables. That is pretty quick, but you may have to do some additional work when a new variable is added. 05:21:30 ilitirit, PLT Scheme has the obvious analog with parameterize that won't cons and die (except for the 1+ of course) 05:23:34 i guess it is actually relevant as handler-bind, etc. tend to use special variables internally 05:23:36 (but by the time 1+ exhausts your memory, the universe has known many heat deaths) 05:24:26 beach: also this gets somewhat unwieldy when there are plenty of special variables, only a few of which are dynamically bound 05:24:49 typical time/space tradeoff 05:25:24 beach, that's exactly the scheme rme implemented according to his page (iiuc) 05:25:55 -!- Demosthenex [n=demo@c-76-124-82-88.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:26:13 Is there anyone here who has never worked through SICP but would like to? I am forming a self-study group here on Freenode. With the goal of working through that book. 05:26:17 Anyone interested let me know 05:27:58 I probably should at this point. I keep putting it off, but it sounds like a commitment :P 05:28:12 emma: In #SICP? 05:28:22 ilitirit: I suppose there aren't that many ways of doing it. 05:29:02 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit ["bye all"] 05:29:04 Makoryu, ##club-classroom 05:29:15 Fare: Sure, it would be interesting to see how many special variables people use in general, and compare that to the overhead of a thread. 05:29:25 rme: how big is that per-thread vector in typical applications? 05:30:13 Fare: I don't have any measurements of how big that vector gets on applications. 05:30:20 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:30:40 beach: a splice-tree instead of a vector would allow for quickish access in decent space. 05:32:06 Fare: as for your labels example, it will cause ccl to overflow the stack. 05:32:35 Makoryu, still here? 05:32:53 emma: Yeeeeuuuuuuup 05:33:05 beach: that sounds efficient, and I suppose reading and writing to a special variable's current bindings isn't too costly overall 05:33:10 Bonjjeeeeeeooooooorno 05:33:32 rme: can do better, if you tail-call optimize your SPCPDL handling. 05:34:06 rme: do you have a PDL per special variable? a PDL for all special variables? 05:34:17 ljames: I think the jargon people use wrt to this problem is "deep-bound" and "shallow-bound". I never can keep straight what the difference is between the two. 05:35:18 Fare: there's a single binding chain per-thread. 05:36:26 Makoryu, did you want to join the group? 05:36:41 emma: Nahhhhhh not really 05:36:47 I'm all set thanks. 05:36:48 okay 05:36:55 rme: is that simpler or more efficient that one per binding? 05:37:15 rme: one per binding makes the tail-call optimization trivial 05:38:26 rme: one per thread means that you must be able to merge the restoration of your modifications with those of the last frame, which is becomes harder 05:38:29 well, the current binding is always readily available in the vector indexed by the symbol's binding index, so it's simple just to keep all the binding records on the stack. 05:39:49 rme: with one chain per binding per thread you'd have to go through one cons per binding 05:41:36 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:27 setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:44:45 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-4-239.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:35 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 05:47:02 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest10163 05:50:14 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-149-41.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:52:30 clhs some 05:52:31 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm 05:53:01 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:53:58 ilitirit: the default size of the thread-local binding vector is 2K words. If your lisp image binds 10000 special variables, then yes, that's going to have a per-thread memory cost. 05:55:06 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 05:56:57 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:58:18 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.107.70] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:59:37 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.221] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:00:47 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:01:57 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-10-167.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:01:57 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 06:06:33 koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.107.70] has joined #lisp 06:11:07 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:16:06 Demosthenes [n=demo@c-76-124-82-88.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:18:47 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@90.149.117.111] has joined #lisp 06:19:05 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:19:22 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 06:19:34 Caprica [n=user@125-236-175-4.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 06:20:11 the reason 1.0.31 doesn't show as the lastest on the sbcl site is just nobody has gotten around to updating it? 06:23:41 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:24:27 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:24:30 hello 06:25:54 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 06:28:09 .oO(and is avoiding special binding if you want tail recursion so _hard_, anyway? total non-problem if you ask me) 06:28:23 Can anyone point me to some docs on the Correct Way to specialize PRINT-OBJECT? 06:28:41 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-130-55.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:24 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-32-200.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:31:32 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:36:34 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:38:22 ln5 [n=ln5@193.11.3.30] has joined #lisp 06:38:39 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-078.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 06:41:40 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:42:24 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:43:14 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-0-12.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:48:27 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-97-60.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 06:49:51 cmm: well handler-bind etc. use special vars generally inside them 06:50:22 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:51:37 Ralith, print-object should be avoided for condition or structure types, maybe use print-unreadable-object . . . but i have no more advice :) 06:53:48 this advice doesn't make sense 06:54:41 tell me what is wrong stassats 06:55:47 no, you tell me why it is right 06:56:12 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:56:26 well it is against the spec to specialise print object on condition types, you should use report instead 06:56:53 what's wrong with using print-unreadable-object? 06:57:29 where is it against the spec? 06:58:00 and it is reading like "avoid print-object for ..., use print-unreadable-object instead" 06:58:08 -!- Guest10163 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 06:58:33 i don't mean that, i mean use print-unreadable-object inside print-object 06:58:34 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:58:51 aha finally i have caught you on spec conformance stassats :) 06:59:32 i'm not making fun here, i'm asking where in the spec 07:00:07 print-object (OBJECT standard-object) 07:00:38 at least one of lispworks or allegro actually inforce this for condition classes 07:00:44 print-object (object structure-object) stream 07:00:51 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.82.19] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:01:09 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:01:28 my victory is very partial it seems :) good retort, i was wrong about structure classes 07:02:08 good morning 07:03:23 hello mvilleneuve 07:04:05 -!- ln5 [n=ln5@193.11.3.30] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:06:40 benny [n=benny@i577A19B8.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:11:35 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:12:00 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:12:11 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:14:38 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 07:14:41 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:15:22 How can I improve slime's backtraces? 07:15:59 what do not like you about them? 07:16:28 one way to make it more informative --- recompile with debug 2 07:18:54 recompile what, and how do I tell it "debug 2"? 07:19:49 what you are inspecting 07:20:05 (optimize (debug 2)) declaration 07:20:47 nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:21:17 yeah, that didn't get me any more information at all 07:21:25 turned one line green though :P 07:21:37 oh, I see. 07:21:39 clickable. 07:21:47 well, all lines are clickable 07:21:48 not the more detailed backtrace I'd hoped for, but something. 07:21:54 ...I see. 07:21:59 so, not really any more at all >_> 07:22:19 well, it should give local variables and the like 07:22:27 green line means that frame is compiled with higher debug settings 07:23:45 it won't automagically give you more frames that weren't there, unless with debug 3, which will prevent tail call optimization 07:24:40 it does give local variables and the like 07:24:45 (i'm talking about SBCL) 07:24:45 but so does every other line 07:25:08 that's fine by me 07:25:21 doesn't give me any more info than a bunch of internal locals though 07:25:34 what information do you want to get? 07:25:59 was hoping to determine exactly where the error was occurring 07:26:13 the first entry in the backtrace is: 07:26:21 0: (SB-KERNEL:TWO-ARG-+ 21 NIL) 07:26:31 and the one immediately after that is the call to the function that I'm debugging 07:26:47 and I'm certainly not calling any internal SBCL code there. 07:26:49 <_3b> hit v on the first entry ? 07:27:10 that brings me to the SBCL source code. 07:27:15 I didn't even know I had that on my system; neat. 07:27:21 not useful, though. 07:27:21 well, you are adding a number to NIL 07:27:23 <_3b> ah, right 07:27:24 somehow 07:27:55 oh, two-arg-+ is an optimized form of #'+? 07:28:18 <_3b> probably more simplified than optimized 07:28:22 if you hit v on (sb-kernel:twoarg-+ ..) well of course it brings up the sbcl source code .. that is _exactly_ where the problem is triggered (finally) .. so you move one step down in the stack trace and hit v there in something that looks like "your code" which is more likely to contain the cause of the error 07:28:37 that that and v on the second backtrace entry, bringing me to the exact call, is the info I needed. 07:28:41 yep. 07:28:54 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:28:57 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [] 07:29:03 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 07:29:13 <_3b> lnostdal: yeah, my advice was a bit off, apparently not quite awake yet :) 07:29:31 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:29:31 *lnostdal* *coffee* 07:29:32 :) 07:29:50 bug fixed! 07:29:52 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:29:53 thanks guys :) 07:30:04 you're welcome! 07:30:10 good morning :) 07:30:18 redblue [i=star@ppp053.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 07:30:32 mårnmårn :) 07:31:07 hmm, should i have said "labrt"? 07:31:15 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:31:44 ASau [n=user@host111-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:31:57 no one would understand you .. hehe 07:35:07 rstandy [n=rastandy@pc212-189-140-32.unile.it] has joined #lisp 07:42:07 opt9 [n=opt9@59.7.205.108] has joined #lisp 07:44:41 -!- ASau [n=user@host111-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["reboot"] 07:51:36 -!- opt9 [n=opt9@59.7.205.108] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:55:53 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:57:57 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:59:17 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:11:45 Ralith_ [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has joined #lisp 08:11:45 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:14:04 ski [n=slj@c-2111e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:14:51 ASau [n=user@host111-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 08:15:25 ilitirit: well, expecting things like handler-bind to be tail-safe is even more unreasonable than expecting special binding to be safe. same for unwind-protect 08:15:48 yes 08:17:26 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 08:17:58 clhs export 08:17:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_export.htm 08:18:49 don't use it Ralith_, do :export in defpackage instead 08:19:30 I love the smell of one-size-fits-all advice in the morning 08:20:16 -!- ilitirit is now known as c|mell 08:21:09 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 08:22:21 well who wants to play the nash bargaining game implemented in Lisp -- http://mopoko.com 08:22:53 kiko_` [n=user@67.207.130.53] has joined #lisp 08:22:56 -!- kiko_ [n=user@67.207.130.53] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:23:25 -!- drhodes [n=none@209-20-72-61.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:23:28 drhodes [n=none@209-20-72-61.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 08:25:53 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-078.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:26:21 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-078.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 08:26:49 c|mell: nice :) 08:28:09 the code is all at github http://github.com/vii/teepeedee2 08:28:53 it's a bit annoying as if you start playing with someone, and they don't do anything, it doesn't time them out 08:29:10 Well, if you use a binding stack and unwind to an absolute position on it, tail call elision should be just fine. 08:29:24 c|mell: why? 08:29:40 it seems much more elegant to put the export near the relevant code 08:30:43 if you do that and don't put it in the defpackage too, then sbcl will by default complain if the defpackage is evaluated again; so force-reload becomes a nuisance 08:31:10 ah. 08:31:18 incidentally 08:31:39 when trying to load my project via ASDF 08:31:42 And an forced asdf operation will die if your package is a dependency of something else 08:31:56 it looks for the :file in /tmp instead of ./ 08:32:00 why might this be? 08:32:15 You C-c C-c the defsystem form 08:32:46 obviously if I've gotten as far as it loading :file elements, I've already done that :P 08:32:57 Don't. Always C-c C-k the file so ASDF has a chance to know about the file the defsystem form is in 08:33:16 oh that's what you meant 08:33:22 that did it, thanks :) 08:34:23 -!- Ralith_ is now known as Ralith 08:34:44 also, what's #:? 08:34:54 c|mell: as if I didn't have enough distractions. 08:34:58 clhs # 08:34:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dh.htm 08:36:01 ah. 08:36:53 c|mell: what's up with the long pauses between when a game starts and when you're actually allowed to make a demand? 08:37:04 are demands made sequentially? 08:37:20 you have to wait to see if someone else will play, if not then it give you a bot like ralph or nelson 08:37:39 there's someone there, I just haven't been prompted to make a demand yet. 08:37:45 it's been like 2 minutes? 08:37:56 i think it has crashed :( 08:38:06 :( 08:39:25 o dammit, i don't know why 08:41:30 reminds me a prisoner's dilemma a bit 08:42:59 dkcl [n=usuario@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 08:43:03 yes, the nash bargaining game is a generalized version that may be equivalent to the prisoner's dilemma, if the right pot and penalty are chosen 08:43:06 -!- dkcl is now known as dandersen 08:43:23 oh, right 08:43:27 lexa_ [n=lexa_@83.222.5.112] has joined #lisp 08:43:55 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest98750 08:51:17 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-34-166.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:53:31 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B838.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:23 -!- slackjaw [n=jolyonwh@cb8faac9.atp.nicta.com.au] has quit ["Computer goes to sleep!"] 08:57:15 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 09:00:39 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:03:56 Prisoners dilemma is solved by tit for tat 09:04:24 nah, it is usually solved by punch in the face 09:04:25 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:04:34 for tat 09:04:50 Nash bargaining game is for more than two players 09:05:17 And is judged by the Nash equilibrium 09:05:30 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 09:06:18 The general idea is that collaborating does better that survival of the fittest 09:07:13 pkhuong: thanks a lot for the advice. I finally got it to work (I got lazy for a bit) 09:07:17 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:07:56 M-? is lovely, tcr .. already making use of it here :) 09:09:21 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:13:06 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 09:13:58 fiveop [n=fiveop@e179165019.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:14:01 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:14:43 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B838.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 09:16:05 Running through 'Natural Language processing with Python' which uses a nltk (Natural Language Tool Kit) to process text's. Anything similar for CL? 09:16:36 Pocket [n=Pocket78@p1180-ipbf3608hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:17:06 -!- Pocket [n=Pocket78@p1180-ipbf3608hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has left #lisp 09:17:53 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.128.98.167] has joined #lisp 09:18:30 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.134] has joined #lisp 09:20:46 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:22:04 younder: you could gather NLP tools written exclusively in lisp, but AFAIK, this collection has not been specifically built so far. The closest I know is the CMU AILab repository (contains also traces of prolog and other programming languages), and Morphix NLP, a linux distribution live CD full of NLP tools. 09:23:02 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:24:08 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:26:03 Sounds like a project ;) 09:26:20 http://morphix-nlp.berlios.de/ 09:26:39 younder: could base it on libcl, adding NLP libraries (and possibly alien NLP libraries with CFFI interfaces). 09:28:50 Thanks! I'll look into it 09:28:57 -!- Guest98750 [n=lexa_@83.222.5.112] has left #lisp 09:28:57 younder: also, it could be interesting to contribute lisp NLP libraries to Morphix NLP, to give a hint to other NLP programmers ;-) 09:31:07 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:33:32 levy [n=levy@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:34:05 üdv 09:34:10 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:34:23 cat alert! 09:35:29 or catalepsy. 09:35:53 ? 09:36:52 cat ale psy. 09:37:32 Assuming a cataleptic person would fall down on the keyboard and produce similar input as a cat :-) 09:38:51 Indeed NLP has been largely forgotten in CL and it is a more natural environment than python. Lisp is eliminately suitable for this. 09:39:08 eminently I assume. 09:39:19 oops 09:39:55 ussualy when lisp does NLP well it's when its emulation a prolog DCG style of unifcation 09:40:51 matimago, I just don't like to say hi, I though you might want to learn some hungarian other than psName... 09:41:23 implementing a search strategy based on breadth first though might be easier in lisp than prolog 09:41:54 levy: Ah! Thanks. Wouldn't a capital Ü be used in Hungarian too? 09:42:18 That'll be my first Hungarian word. :-) 09:42:27 A lot of NLP is mathematical. Analysis of frequency of letters, words, combinations of words. 09:43:56 oh true.. one POS tagger i wrote took a ton of statistical data mined from another process.. then i used unification to find the "best fit" based on that statits 09:44:29 statistics.. then after the parts of speech were known it could start a more brutish seach 09:44:37 search 09:45:32 example was: http://logicmoo.ath.cx/manual/root/home/kifbot/dearlord.htm 09:46:21 in the "Please wait..." secotion it was doing the statistics 09:46:23 The 'modern' approach is to use Bayesian logic to follow sequences of words by analyzing a text and building sentence chunks which are then bound to semantic identifiers and then used to produce sentences. 09:46:41 -!- dandersen [n=usuario@metabug/dandersen] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:46:45 lnostdal: Yeah, there you see how the right packaging of what's already there can greatly improve the status quo 09:48:32 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181150041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:48:40 nunb [n=user@94.161.128.222] has joined #lisp 09:48:53 s/logic/statistics/ 09:50:04 *nod* .. i guess the hard part is getting a good training set that uses the semantic indetifiers you'll want towards the end 09:50:50 -!- nunb [n=user@94.161.128.222] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:50:57 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 09:52:28 matimago, you are right, I was just lazy 09:58:04 Krystof: sbcl HEAD barks at CLX eval-when, would you like a patch? 09:58:18 lispm [n=joswig@f054054223.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:59:32 I built CLX with sbcl "1.0.30.52" just yesterday 10:01:59 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.128.98.167] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 10:02:02 1.0.31.17 here 10:03:29 michaelw pasted "sbcl 1.0.31.17 vs. CLX" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87427 10:04:38 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:04:58 tcr: what does (member :little-endian *features*) say? 10:05:01 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@wavelan-27.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has joined #lisp 10:06:20 :clx-little-endian is on my *features* 10:08:01 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:09:18 tekin [n=kaa@85.108.58.77] has joined #lisp 10:09:24 later.. 10:09:34 hi everyone 10:09:37 eid mubarak 10:10:50 dmiles_afk: I might mention www.gutenberg.org 10:12:23 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:12:29 michaelw: that's because cffi pushes onto *features* 10:12:29 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 10:12:43 or "trivial-features" 10:12:44 -!- lispm [n=joswig@f054054223.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 10:13:04 I consider it a bug in anything that uses trivial-features, because of its use of the keyword package 10:13:17 So sorry... :) 10:14:14 luis: Pls fix, kthx 10:14:51 if I don't use the keyword package then the transition won't be smooth when it becomes a CDR! 10:15:24 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:16:01 But I suppose prepending tf: or something isn't so bad. 10:16:33 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-69-233-16-43.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:39 The keyword package is there to be used. It is nice to have a not necessarily unique collection of names to bind to. Saves CPU cycles. 10:16:48 A bunch of other stuff will break when I do that, though. Oh well. 10:17:50 Just make sure you WANT the identifies to be shared. 10:18:17 Krystof: anyhow, if sbcl doesn't like old-style e-w, why not change them in CLX? 10:18:39 michaelw: because that code was never seen by sbcl, and someone else's implementation where that code was seen might not like the new-style e-w 10:19:28 e-w? 10:20:52 -!- HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:21:47 ignas_ [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:22:25 Anyone consciously using trivial-features? 10:22:29 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@wavelan-27.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:23:34 I don't think it's a good idea to make TF a nickname of trivial-features 10:24:05 in fact, I think no package should set a package nickname. That's something the user of a library should decide 10:24:50 tcr: trivial-features doesn't define any package right now. How's that? :) 10:25:29 Apropos, I feel somewhat bad with defining three packages for my stuff. FOO, FOO-SYSTEM, and FOO-TEST 10:25:50 tcr: you can start by getting rid of foo-system. 10:25:55 Yeah that's true 10:27:04 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 10:27:54 test's belong in the same module as the code 10:28:50 minion: thwap for younder 10:28:51 younder: please look at thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 10:29:16 sorry for the ' 10:30:42 tests belong in the same module as the code 10:31:48 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:32:00 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:32:22 <_3b> younder: what does 'same module' have to do with packages? 10:33:04 one test package is even worse 10:35:45 if you must eliminate tests from the production code put a +TEST+ in features and use a #+ +TEST+ \n (progn ...) 10:35:54 *features* 10:36:15 <_3b> sounds inconvenient 10:37:17 just have tests in a separate file and load it manually? 10:37:17 You want the tests close to the code they test, or you will forget to update them if the spec changes 10:38:05 <_3b> not if you run the tests once in a while 10:38:17 <_3b> (unlike docs, which don't break visibly if they don't match the code) 10:38:53 tests should be run each time code is changes 10:39:21 unittest will help you run only the relevant tests 10:39:52 the code is changed 10:40:38 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:41:43 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:46:25 I use a function to automate it. 10:46:28 -!- rdd [n=rdd@83.250.145.223] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:47:53 Then bind it to ctrl-c-v 10:48:03 divisionbell [n=kenan@78.172.78.92] has joined #lisp 10:52:10 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp053.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Success] 11:02:23 dkcl [n=usuario@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 11:02:37 ZabaQ [n=johnc@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 11:05:31 -!- ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:06:59 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 11:07:40 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@76.87.84.207] has quit ["night"] 11:09:26 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:09:38 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:09:54 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:11:57 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:13:35 -!- divisionbell [n=kenan@78.172.78.92] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:17:42 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:17:58 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:20:34 -!- Caprica [n=user@125-236-175-4.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:22:09 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:22:14 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:23:07 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-0-12.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:23:55 -!- dkcl [n=usuario@metabug/dandersen] has quit ["leaving"] 11:25:06 erm.. I use lisp-unit 11:26:22 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:26:57 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.82.19] has joined #lisp 11:27:20 greyhame [n=jao@88.6.168.75] has joined #lisp 11:29:20 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:29:52 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:33:10 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:33:54 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 11:34:48 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122.57.0.12] has joined #lisp 11:36:18 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-92-135.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 11:41:53 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:43:18 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:43:30 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:44:14 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:47:34 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote 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[n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 13:30:31 Good afternoon! 13:32:01 hello spiaggia 13:32:05 hi spiaggia 13:34:13 afternoon! 13:36:41 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:38:58 Reav___ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 13:39:21 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:43 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:02 hoy 13:41:18 dkcl [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has joined #lisp 13:41:21 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@metabug/dandersen] has quit [Client Quit] 13:42:05 yo 13:43:16 oy 13:43:17 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f70647b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:50 yo-yo 13:51:19 ojojoj 13:52:08 Morning, everyone. 13:52:09 Krystof: I hope you enjoyed your special long service leave from ECLM. you can skip ECLM 2015 too. 13:53:50 (map () 'princ '#1=(#\y #\o . #1#)) 13:54:02 hehe 13:54:31 lukego: Your paripatetic lifestyle fascinates me. My wife and I last year bought what we're calling our "30-year house". 13:58:25 fe[nl]ix: around? 14:00:15 -!- lharc [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:00:47 gigamonkey: yeah enough of the homelessness already. I'm trying to buy a "5-year second home" at the moment. then even though I don't have a first home I'll have a consistent place to stash my bikes etc :) 14:01:11 congrats though. buying in CA is no small thing methinks :) 14:01:19 berkeley still? 14:02:03 lukego: sounds like you're looking for a 5-year storage locker. 14:02:57 sellout: right. but has to be big enough that I can invite people to surf my couch, for a change, aswell :) 14:03:53 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:06:53 oh gee, reno is disqualified from f1. 14:06:58 for 2 years. 14:07:09 Why? Did they cheat? 14:07:11 no they aren't, and off topic 14:07:29 flavio has been disqualidifed lately, and now the team. 14:07:30 v0|d: afaik they're not disqualified 14:07:37 the team too? 14:07:46 yes, the team too, latest news. 14:08:07 pat symonds got 5 years. 14:08:15 v0|d: wrong channel. 14:08:23 Xach: yeah. 14:08:29 /join #f1 14:08:44 :) 14:11:18 jeti [n=jeti@p548EFDFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:23 lukego: Yeah, Berkeley. Actually our first house was in Oakland. We lived there for five years before our move last year. 14:11:48 Hmmm, Coders probably would have done faster if I hadn't moved twice in the time I was working on it. 14:12:45 I'll move in November, but I'd assume it's OT too... 14:13:04 matimago: /j #movers 14:13:09 :-) 14:13:17 matimago: you could move to a lisp haven such as europe, or america 14:13:45 I'll make my own little lisp oasis :-) 14:14:10 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has left #lisp 14:15:04 matimago: so now I want to know, where are you moving? 14:15:23 I'm returning to La Manga del Mar Menor after two years in Paris. 14:15:31 thesnowdog_ [i=thesnowd@114.73.23.227] has joined #lisp 14:15:54 matimago: you could buy an atoll, and easily make it look like () on GMaps... 14:16:11 michaelw: that is an excellent idea 14:16:12 () 14:16:33 See, we weren't so far off topic, really. 14:17:00 -!- greyhame [n=jao@75.Red-88-6-168.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["leaving"] 14:17:00 matimago: why heading bacK? 14:17:05 greyhame [n=jao@75.Red-88-6-168.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:13 It's too gold in Paris :-) 14:17:14 milanj [n=milan@93.86.59.248] has joined #lisp 14:17:16 s/gold/cold/ 14:17:28 yeah, lack of sleep gives me lots of such ideas 14:17:40 gigamonkey, your next book will be out in no-time! 14:18:17 *michaelw* should perhaps consult with colleagues before handing in project proposals 14:18:54 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-121.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:19:12 matimago: that can be cured with some vintage lisp machines 14:19:22 matimago: http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/world/city_guides/results.shtml?tt=TT003570 14:19:43 ejs [n=eugen@68-29-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:44 its fine for me, i generally experience lower values here. 14:19:48 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:22:05 thesnowdog__ [i=thesnowd@114.73.23.227] has joined #lisp 14:23:21 v0|d: Well, in La Manga it's the same curves, only 10 degree higher. 14:24:01 i generally tend to work at night under those high temp conditions. 14:24:35 and it succuessfully destroyed some of my social life up to now, hehe. 14:25:23 yes, the summer is horribly unproductive for me. I should get another job during the summer. 14:26:10 There are a few days when it's too hot, but in general it's ok. 14:26:21 -!- ASau [n=user@host111-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:27:36 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 14:28:14 http://www.flickr.com/photos/sjl7678/2397152925/ 14:31:39 btw did other photos from eclm surface than lispm's ones? 14:31:50 Blaay [i=Blay@89.142.249.210] has joined #lisp 14:32:16 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 14:33:01 this should be a very good wheather for productivity: http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/world/city_guides/results.shtml?tt=TT004450 14:33:32 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:33:41 short summary of the weather: mostly sucks 14:33:55 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:34:41 dto [n=dto@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:17 TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has joined #lisp 14:36:34 oh gee 14:36:51 -!- thesnowdog_ [i=thesnowd@114.73.23.227] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:37:15 jdz: http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/world/city_guides/results.shtml?tt=TT004360 14:37:27 jdz: sorry this is more productive it seems. 14:37:38 thesnowdog_ [i=thesnowd@114.73.23.227] has joined #lisp 14:37:42 :) 14:37:53 maybe i should move to east somewhere. 14:39:28 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:39:52 -!- thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@114.73.23.227] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:40:41 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:44:04 -!- thesnowdog__ [i=thesnowd@114.73.23.227] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:46:55 rickardg [n=user@c-4e7271d5.027-77-6c756e10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:46:59 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:47:48 kiuma [n=kiuma@host148-131-static.28-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:49:00 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 14:52:05 proun [n=proun@76.180.85.22] has joined #lisp 14:52:34 hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:52:53 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 14:53:05 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-43-250.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:53:41 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:55:32 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483B695.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:56:37 -!- thesnowdog_ is now known as thesnowdog 14:58:13 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 14:58:34 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:59:22 thesnowdog_ [i=thesnowd@114.73.58.56] has joined #lisp 14:59:57 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@S0106002500fe5c20.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [] 15:01:03 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:41 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 15:02:02 -!- Blaay is now known as Blaaay 15:03:15 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:03:20 hi sykopomp, actually demands were being made sequentially; i fixed it with an awesome new macro with-join-spawn/cc, check it out http://github.com/vii/teepeedee2/blob/master/src/lib/callcc.lisp 15:05:01 -!- thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@114.73.23.227] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:06:00 roninbv [n=roninbv@32.131.70.138] has joined #lisp 15:07:24 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 15:07:32 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 15:08:06 good morning all 15:08:06 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:08:21 Morning. 15:08:31 does anyone use gedit for lisp dev? 15:09:09 I ask because I was hoping that someone had a language definition file for lisp in gedit. 15:09:27 -!- sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.utwente.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:09:41 sytse [i=sytse@130.89.163.131] has joined #lisp 15:10:24 I really doubt it. Emacs, LW, Vim, Able come to midn. 15:11:14 you just never know. i've never heard of something like that, though. 15:11:24 Well, I don't use it for general development, but it would help if it had syntax coloring for lisp, since I sometimes use it for quick edits. 15:11:25 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-15-25.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:12:18 even if someone does, they'll /msg him... :) 15:13:36 I saw some info on how to add it, but it was not very detailed. 15:13:50 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:15:09 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:27 roninbv: Or you could use Emacs+SLIME like most people here. 15:17:35 I am working to learn emacs and slime. it was more of a curiousity than anything else 15:18:08 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-69-233-16-43.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has quit [] 15:21:38 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 15:23:58 -!- vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:24:37 emma [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-ezhcsfylsiybrlrr] has joined #lisp 15:26:32 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:27:00 -!- amaron [n=amaron@93.86.161.198] has quit ["leaving"] 15:29:43 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 15:30:26 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 15:30:43 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C0F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:58 -!- younder [n=jthing@251.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:37:26 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-2-62.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:38:22 Boy, getting the region code right was harder than I thought. Writing unit-test code helped of course, but it was still hard to figure out what the problems were. 15:38:58 Lemurian [n=lemurian@unaffiliated/lemurian] has joined #lisp 15:40:04 roninbv: I meet a programmer which use gedit to develop in Lisp! 15:41:04 but I think he hasn't any additional support for gedit 15:41:20 met* 15:41:34 What's wrong with gedit? 15:41:40 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 15:41:50 paul graham famously copy'n'pastes from vi 15:42:56 hell, the guy probably even poops famously 15:43:03 that's why it took him so much time to release arc 15:43:19 *Xach* coughs 15:43:42 I found that if I used macros, I could just poop a little and then take care of my elimination needs for a whole week. 15:43:49 davazp: So did you ever find a small open-source Lisp project to contribute to? 15:43:49 -- says PG 15:44:29 right on 15:46:04 beach: I fear I don't. I have contributed to gnupdf project at this time 15:46:05 PG -- now at least 50% of my poop is macros, and I've become fabulously wealthy because of it 15:46:35 younder [n=jthing@251.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 15:46:44 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["poop"] 15:46:48 Oh, leave poor PG alone. 15:47:12 -!- younder [n=jthing@251.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [No route to host] 15:47:16 I don't agree with "poor", but I think he should be left alone. 15:47:28 davazp: are you still looking for one? 15:47:36 yeah, sorry about that 15:47:37 beach: are you from sts? 15:47:39 hey arbscht! How are things? 15:47:48 hello beach :) things are good! 15:47:51 Lemurian: sts? 15:47:59 arbscht: Graduated yet? 15:48:03 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:48:07 *beach* thinks he must have 15:48:11 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 15:48:14 -!- roninbv [n=roninbv@32.131.70.138] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:48:15 "states" in moron-speak, I think 15:48:18 beach: in a way... 15:48:22 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:48:23 arbscht: of course 15:48:28 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 15:48:55 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-9-109.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:00 cmm: really? First time I see that. 15:49:01 davazp: we could use some help with cl-proc. if you use lisp on linux, you might be able to contribute 15:49:22 beach: well, it's a guess 15:49:25 arbscht: "in a way"? 15:50:16 Zhivago: I think the Lisp "community" has a bad case of "Jantelagen". 15:51:22 Is that like constipation? 15:51:28 arbscht: let me take a look it 15:52:41 Ah, a kind of inferiority complex manifested as a suppression of others. 15:52:45 Zhivago: http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jantelagen in Swedish. Google translate does a pretty good job. 15:52:47 beach: I parted ways with the university sometime last year, and didn't complete the programme. my attention is on the marketplace nowadays 15:53:09 arbscht: Interesting development. I didn't see that coming. 15:53:25 arbscht: Who's marketplace? 15:53:26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jante_Law 15:53:47 Zhivago: Ah, thanks! 15:53:48 -!- emma [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-ezhcsfylsiybrlrr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:53:55 beach: just a lapse of good taste in my humble case. and thanks for the new word! 15:54:14 arbscht: Don't you visit ##Pink anymore? :( 15:54:17 Lemurian: the market for free software in australasia mostly 15:55:18 arbscht: Ah, interesting. 15:56:16 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 15:56:17 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@pc212-189-140-32.unile.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:56:19 cmm: Actually, I wasn't referring to you specifically. 15:56:55 cmm: Yeah, it puts a name on a phenomenon that is hard to define and identify, but I see it here a lot. 15:57:53 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jante_Law is an english writeup 15:57:56 Tall poppy syndrome might be somewhat similar as an English idiom. 15:57:58 mcspiff [n=user@DC1ED.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 15:58:06 beach: the opposite extreme is to consider the talented, powerful, or intelligent as being immune to critique, and I don't think that's healthy either 15:58:09 cmm: And, for what it's worth, I suspect it is having a devastating effect on the popularity of Lisp. 15:58:18 dlowe: True. 15:58:33 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@118.210.155.74] has joined #lisp 15:58:42 Xach: Zhivago already gave us that URL. 15:58:44 ah 15:58:46 Xach: But thanks anyway. 16:00:37 dlowe: The good mix to me is to be critical within a group of peers who have enough experience and who know how to interpret comments relative to that experience, and to avoid it with newbies who will surely get the wrong message. 16:01:03 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:01:08 good use of a great word, beach, not sure that it is applicable to all lispers -- maybe just an unfortunate vocal minority 16:01:31 Edward_ [n=Ed@81.249.198.163] has joined #lisp 16:02:00 beach: sounds like academia :) a bit difficult in the undomesticated wilderness of the internet, though 16:02:11 is there a list somewhere of all the character names? 16:02:14 c|mell: Of course! I always take shortcuts like that. When I say "women do this" "men do that", I never mean ALL women or ALL men, just some kind of statistical average. 16:02:26 proun: it is not standard 16:02:55 Xach: hmm, so what is the genearl way of handling keyboard input? 16:03:02 proun: actually, let me see, i don't recall if there's a list of standardized names that the implementation can extend... 16:03:05 *Xach* checks 16:03:30 aha, http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/13_ag.htm 16:03:59 -!- nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:04:11 proun: there isn't a standard low-level way of asking for key-at-a-time input, though some CLs come with systems to do it, such as CL 16:04:14 sorry, such as CLISP 16:05:10 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:14 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:14 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-4-239.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:05:14 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 16:05:19 http://l1sp.org/clisp/ext:with-keyboard 16:05:25 ok thanks. seems like a pretty important feature though, no? 16:06:05 proun: if you're making an interactive terminal program, yeah. 16:07:28 LiamH: yes 16:07:41 nikodemus: could it be that i see a concurrent hashtable access in find-package?! 16:08:06 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:08:19 fe[nl]ix: I notice you have a lot of mirrors on the cl.net gitweb. Do those fetch automatically from another repo? My cron job isn't working for some reason. 16:09:01 LiamH: I have a cronjob that updates them 16:09:39 nikodemus: err, well, looking at find-package it clearly ignores threads... 16:09:54 fe[nl]ix: here is my cron line: 0 * * * * cd /project/gsll/public_html/git; git fetch >/dev/null 2>&1 16:09:56 dlowe: I realize that. I am just blabbing about my recent experiences, not trying to find a real solution. 16:10:16 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-130-55.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:10:23 fe[nl]ix: seems to do nothing, but when I cut and paste the commands by hand into the shell, it works fine 16:10:27 *attila_lendvai* is confused, that gethash assert should only pop up in the writers 16:10:31 divisionbell [n=kenan@78.172.78.92] has joined #lisp 16:11:47 attila_lendvai: are you attila from .aware? 16:11:54 -!- mcspiff [n=user@DC1ED.WPA.Dal.Ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:12:15 Lemurian: nope 16:12:18 mcspiff [n=user@DC1ED.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 16:12:30 dlowe: Also, I think many people are critical, even though they are essentially unable or unwilling to come up with something better, and such behavior has only negative consequences in my opinion, because newbies will see the critical comments, but then have nothing better to turn to. 16:14:14 LiamH: try running it as /usr/local/bin/git 16:14:33 vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:14:55 Lemurian: You never explained what "sts" meant. 16:14:55 fe[nl]ix: ah right, I forgot cron typically doesn't have paths that the cron owner does. 16:15:24 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@75.55.215.89] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:16:21 beach: Doesn't matter, wrong beach :) 16:16:33 Ah, OK. 16:17:04 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:18:00 Lemurian: Are you new here, or is it just a new nick? 16:18:26 beach: That doesn't matter either. 16:19:04 Lemurian: Sure it does! It is always interesting to know what to say to people. 16:21:02 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 16:21:17 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:21:33 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 16:21:46 nikodemus: i've sent it to sbcl-devel... 16:21:50 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:06 -!- divisionbell [n=kenan@78.172.78.92] has left #lisp 16:23:11 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.82.19] has joined #lisp 16:26:57 -!- ignas_ [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:28:20 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:30:12 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 16:30:41 Greetings. 16:30:45 seen Xach 16:31:21 *Xach* looks down at himself 16:31:33 Ah, good, so you have . 16:32:09 Umm, your hyperspec server is not resolving, I get a generic network solutions page 16:32:18 LiamH: does it work ? 16:32:26 smolyn [n=smolyn@76.77.66.100] has joined #lisp 16:32:32 tmh: l1sp.org? 16:32:44 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:32:47 http://www.xach.com/clhs?q=defclass 16:32:54 fe[nl]ix: I'll know when I do my next commit, which won't come until tonight at the earliest. 16:33:09 tmh: can you go to any other page on www.xach.com? like http://www.xach.com/moviecharts/ ? 16:33:15 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:33:29 Neither 16:33:34 -!- whartung [n=willh@207.38.40.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:33:54 tmh: Ok, I will investigate. I am working on a server transition, perhaps it has gone poorly. 16:34:02 tmh: hi, long time no see. 16:34:03 Xach: I can't resolve www.xach.com either 16:34:16 I'm surprised to find that cl has cis and phase functions. 16:34:27 Xach: but xach.com works 16:34:39 Xach: Thanks, np, I appreciate the service you're providing. I use it through yubnub 16:34:47 Hey leo2007. 16:34:52 fe[nl]ix: thanks 16:35:49 morn|eri [n=mornfall@ip-89-103-110-62.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 16:35:58 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:37:11 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:37:36 fe[nl]ix: can you paste the result of "dig www.xach.com"? 16:37:52 or anyone else, for that matter 16:38:30 tmh pasted "dig www.xach.com" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87451 16:38:53 -!- morn|eri is now known as mornfall 16:39:05 http://paste.lisp.org/display/87452 16:39:09 dang 16:39:21 deafmacro [n=user@59.96.36.44] has joined #lisp 16:39:27 ok, thanks. i'll see what i can do to fix it. 16:39:29 Xach: I too get a SERVFAIL, from home and from c-l.net 16:42:25 Lemurian_ [n=lemurian@unaffiliated/lemurian] has joined #lisp 16:42:27 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-10899.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 16:42:39 whartung [n=willh@207.38.40.1] has joined #lisp 16:43:03 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-250.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:44:06 -!- Lemurian [n=lemurian@unaffiliated/lemurian] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:44:10 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-28-152.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:12 -!- deafmacro [n=user@59.96.36.44] has left #lisp 16:44:13 -!- Lemurian_ is now known as Lemurian 16:46:08 egn [i=tux@nodes.fm] has joined #lisp 16:47:40 -!- mcspiff [n=user@DC1ED.WPA.Dal.Ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:47:43 hi, how can I get "all slot names" for a given class? 16:48:11 ok, i think i have found and fixed the dns problem, but it may take some time to propagate. 16:48:15 egn: Do you mean all slots including those comming from superclasses? 16:48:19 tmh: the clhs redirector won't work for a little while 16:48:32 (even after dns is fixed) 16:48:34 tcr: yeah 16:49:42 mop:class-slots 16:49:58 egn: Get closer-mop (for the portable wrapper, otherwise consult your implementation's documentation what the name of the MOP package is) and use closer-mop:class-slots 16:50:07 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:50:08 minion: closer-mop 16:50:08 closer-mop: Closer to MOP is a compatibility layer that rectifies many of the absent or incorrect MOP features as detected by MOP Feature Tests. http://www.cliki.net/closer-mop 16:50:21 well, (mapcar #'mop:slot-definition-name (mop:class-slots (find-class 'class))) 16:50:23 iirc 16:50:53 stassats: thanks 16:51:15 -!- Lemurian [n=lemurian@unaffiliated/lemurian] has quit ["bbiab"] 16:51:31 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 16:51:49 note that you may have to (closer-mop:finalize-inheritance (find-class 'class)) first, if you haven't instantiated it 16:51:51 Xach: Ok, I'll just do it the old fashioned way, thanks. 16:53:20 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:46 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:53:56 tcr: c|mell: thanks 16:54:05 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit ["scotch"] 16:54:42 -!- Reav___ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:55:32 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit ["puff"] 16:56:21 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 16:57:02 marioxcc [n=user@201.132.83.60] has joined #lisp 16:57:15 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 16:57:24 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 16:57:44 hmm, planet.lisp.org is down? :(( 16:58:00 yes. sorry about that. 16:58:34 mstevens [n=mstevens@193.227.111.165] has joined #lisp 16:58:44 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:59:00 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:59:31 Xach: ah, ok. 17:00:11 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@host148-131-static.28-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:00:24 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:07 thesnowdog__ [i=thesnowd@114.73.58.56] has joined #lisp 17:05:09 -!- thesnowdog_ [i=thesnowd@114.73.58.56] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:05:21 I am confused by what decode-float does. Can someone explain it a bit? 17:05:28 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:41 *tcr* wants a slime contrib for sb-cover. 17:05:59 And if you're at it, plz 4 sb-sprof, too 17:06:30 *luis* holds a mirror against tcr 17:06:36 oh noes 17:06:53 *tcr* vanishes 17:07:09 does float-radix always return 2? 17:07:49 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-078.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:08:31 the code for sb-sprof/slime integration exists. it's just that it predates contribs, so it didn't really have any chance of making it into slime at the time 17:10:13 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:17 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 17:10:26 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-237.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 17:10:26 *attila_lendvai* is a happy user of jsnell's sb-sprof slime code 17:10:51 leadnose [i=leadnose@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 17:11:38 -!- levy_ [n=levy@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 17:14:43 http://jsnell.iki.fi/software/files/slime-sprof-0.2.tar.gz is this the latest version? 17:15:21 probably, unless I managed to shift responsibility of that thing to some minion 17:16:34 thunk [n=user@96-28-112-51.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 17:16:51 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:16:53 md` [n=user@chello089173014026.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 17:17:36 ok, probably i'll make it into a contrib, if it does work 17:18:09 yay for minions 17:18:45 -!- thunk [n=user@96-28-112-51.dhcp.insightbb.com] has left #lisp 17:19:04 -!- ejs [n=eugen@68-29-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:19:59 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-23-247.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 17:22:06 leo2007: on all implementations in wide use today...yes. it's not required to, though 17:22:17 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@193.227.111.165] has quit ["leaving"] 17:23:00 stassats: it works pretty well. we have some small changes to it available at darcs get http://dwim.hu/darcs/hu.dwim.environment (you can find the two *sprof* files in the emacs and source dirs) 17:23:50 getting rid of some compiler warnings, setting the default sort predicate to a better default, etc... smallies like these 17:26:45 jsnell: under what license it is? 17:27:39 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:28:30 froydnj: thanks 17:28:54 stassats: MIT 17:30:35 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:46 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:30:52 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 17:32:15 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:35:13 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:39 wrt. Slime .. is there some way to control or "add context to" the REPL? .. say, each time i eval something i'd like for it to be implicitly wrapped in some context that binds some dynamic variables for that read+eval+print "operation" 17:35:58 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit ["work"] 17:36:42 ..so one could supply or do something like; (lambda (next) (let ((*blah* (random 42))) (funcall next))) 17:37:57 milanj- [n=milan@212.200.217.60] has joined #lisp 17:39:11 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:39:30 well, you sure can provide a different repl to swank::*listener-eval-function* 17:40:12 divisionbell [n=kenan@78.172.78.92] has joined #lisp 17:40:14 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:40:16 ahyeah, that one calls swank::repl-eval with a single argument by default .. could probably do something with this 17:40:39 *lnostdal* tries that 17:41:22 (i'm thinking this could be useful when experimenting with DB stuff from the repl perhaps .. or STM type stuff) 17:45:30 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:46:02 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.59.248] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:47:22 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:47:32 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 17:48:05 ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-185-243.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:48:44 works great .. nice :) 17:52:43 yow jsnell! Did you see my blog posting about M-? ? I've hoped the question in the last paragraph would be caught by your eyes and answered! 17:53:54 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:53:55 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 17:54:30 bah planet.lisp is still down. People, I can't work under these circumanstances! 17:54:43 [sic] 17:55:03 sorry :( 17:55:13 yeah, saw it. I don't think it'd be difficult, but it'd be mostly useless core bloat 17:56:10 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:11 (iirc there's an explicit filter for implementation packages, so it might be enough to just remove that) 17:56:18 jsnell: I'll probably look into it myself, but my experience with M-? is that whether or not xref information is there is rather non-deterministic. How does that come? 17:57:10 tcr: add "76.74.159.30 planet.lisp.org" to /etc/hosts 17:57:29 hah 17:57:37 certainly shouldn't be non-deterministic 17:57:56 Yeah s/non-deterministic/arbitrary/ 17:58:22 shouldn't really be that either 17:58:58 basically any function call that the ir1 translator sees, and which isn't to one of the blacklisted packages, should be recorded as called 17:59:13 nikodemus fixed a bug related to that just recently 18:02:44 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@81.249.198.163] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 18:03:02 Ok, seems like calls in places like the init forms of DEFVAR, DEFPARAMETER is not considered 18:03:04 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-zrsjrpizkhzzcega] has joined #lisp 18:03:30 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181150041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:03:45 ah, well those don't count ;-) 18:04:14 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-72-136.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:04:21 Happened to be the only place I've used a function I earlier tried M-? on which reported no information available 18:04:37 (since the fopcompiler will intercept such simple things) 18:04:55 ah kind of make sense 18:05:24 Is the fopcompiler an sbcl-only thing? Or is that the remainings of cmucl's byte code interpreter? 18:06:15 (Does anyone the reason why a byte-code interpreter was added to cmucl way back then? To reduce compilation times?) 18:06:52 compilation time and runtime footprint, I'd imagine 18:07:02 and I believe the fopcompiler is sbcl-only 18:07:11 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:07:31 (e.g. compare sbcl's core size to cmucl...I think cmucl's is usually a good bit smaller) 18:08:00 I don't have cmucl installed. Anyone who can provide numbers? 18:08:26 but I guess it wouldn't be hard to add xref recording code to the fopcompiler too 18:10:28 tcr: 27M for lisp-sse2.core and 28M for lisp-x87.core 18:10:52 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has joined #lisp 18:11:34 and your sbcl core? 18:11:36 vs. 26M for sbcl.core 18:12:36 Does CMUCL include the kitchen-sink in those cores? 18:12:52 hemlock etc 18:13:23 no 18:14:25 (find-package :hemlock) => # 18:14:31 i don't think i'm loading it 18:15:10 stassats: the package is there, but hemlock itself isn't loaded 18:15:20 oh, i see 18:15:21 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:15:29 after I (require :hemlock), # 18:15:44 right, numbers are suspicious indeed 18:15:53 the planet.lisp.org / www.xach.com situation should improve very soon 18:16:38 emma [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-kqgfqeotdfpmwxai] has joined #lisp 18:18:39 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 18:20:10 What was the problem= 18:20:43 I screwed up an NS record, and the fix was fast, but distributing it to the network of nameservers was slow. 18:21:07 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AF46.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:22 emmy [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-ezuvdfsyrrnktjnc] has joined #lisp 18:25:48 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 18:29:45 *Xach* is 2/3rds of the way through migrating his server 18:31:33 Xach: would have been perfect if you had said "serv" 18:31:39 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:31:59 heh 18:32:05 SERVFAIL 18:32:11 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:46 pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-129-200.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:12 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:34:22 -!- emma [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-kqgfqeotdfpmwxai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:35:51 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-129-200.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:39:18 *tcr* wishes for my SB-INTROSPECT:FUNCTION-TYPE patch getting into mainline 18:40:37 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.221] has joined #lisp 18:44:03 How can I get a timeout on a blocking read from a stream? 18:44:16 Ralith: there isn't a standard way. 18:44:26 :| 18:44:38 bordeaux-thread:with-timeout 18:44:56 except that it's broken on sbcl and my patch is still not in the official repo... 18:45:00 *attila_lendvai* bugs fe[nl]ix 18:45:12 right 18:45:33 fe[nl]ix: you have the commit bit, right? 18:45:37 yes 18:45:54 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:47:43 attila_lendvai: that's save to use on I/O? 18:48:00 trying to find docs 18:48:32 but the api docs on the trac wiki mention no such function 18:49:09 Ralith: because docs are always out of sync, lagging behind... use the source! 18:49:19 just did 18:49:23 the source has no information :P 18:49:56 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:01 Ralith: What's your implementation? CCL's stream operations often have a :timeout argument 18:50:30 tcr: I'd rather not be implementation-dependent 18:50:38 you should look around in sbcl... but the answer is yes. with-timeout was designed to be a safe timeout, ideally all hanging operations should support it and signal a condition in case of a timeout 18:50:50 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp119.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:51:31 Uhm, from what I'm told here is that WITH-TIMEOUT (asynchroneous interrupts, actually) is inherently flawed and should be avoided 18:52:34 I just discovered that usockets has functionality I can substitute in for this, actually, so it looks like I'm good 18:52:57 aaronfeng [n=aaronfen@38.98.248.211] has joined #lisp 18:53:03 well, i didn't check the impl itself, but i imagine with-timeout as setting up a special variable storing a timeout which is consulted by all operations, which in turn call the OS primitives with an adequate timeout 18:53:08 the docstring of with-deadline looks like an implementation not involving async interrupt 18:53:34 *attila_lendvai* might be mixing the two up 18:55:11 yep, i've mixed up the two... 18:55:11 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:55:15 with-deadline is bordeaux-threads too? 18:55:22 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:43 I don't think so. 18:56:09 no 18:56:17 what's it from, then 18:56:24 fe[nl]ix: anything to say for with-deadline inclusion in b-t? 18:56:39 Ralith: sb-sys:with-deadline 18:56:59 attila_lendvai: It's not even exported API in SBCL. 18:59:08 tcr: so what? bt can follow sbcl, and noone said there are no bugs/surprises in software... it's still better than the usual #+ hell 18:59:14 coliv [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:26 attila_lendvai: having weird bugs in something like BT is particularly evil. 19:00:59 I think I might be dealing with one now, but concurrency is tricky enough that I'm not entirely sure whether it's BT's problem, or my own stupidity. 19:01:04 Ky4e [n=mc@77.85.234.27] has joined #lisp 19:01:07 -!- Ky4e [n=mc@77.85.234.27] has left #lisp 19:01:43 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:02:05 if someone is writing threaded code without the knowledge then no simplicity of any threading lib will save them... 19:02:09 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:02:37 well, you gotta learn somehow :\ 19:04:27 read a book, think hard, write proofs. Testing multithreaded code isn't that useful. It only tells you when you're doing it wrong, and diagnosing the root cause is often difficult. 19:04:35 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 19:05:37 sb-sys is a supported package -- not just extremely widely advertised 19:06:04 pkhuong: anything in particular you recommend? 19:06:07 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-0-12.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:06:27 with-timeout is _bad_ _wrong_ _dangerous_ _corrosive_ _evil_ 19:06:46 *Ralith* is glad he didn't go for that, then 19:07:04 (well, sb-ext:with-timeout is...) 19:07:06 don't know about bxthreads, but CCL's deadline mechanism is nicer than SBCl's IMHO: It's not a per-thread concept, it's a per-socket concept. 19:07:43 sykopomp: nikodemus may have good references. I find the art of multiprocessor programming pretty good, but it might go too fast as an introduction. 19:07:48 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:08:08 p0a [n=user@athedsl-382733.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 19:08:27 Hello how do I create an input stream from a vector? 19:08:33 The vector contains byte values 19:08:53 ie #(0-255 ...) 19:09:07 tcr: i've added jsnell's slime-sprof into contribs 19:09:13 Yay, thank you 19:09:31 i remember talking with hans about ccl's stuff -- i think it is pretty damn close to The Right Thing 19:09:54 pkhuong: btw, you wouldn't happen to know if BT's condition-var implementation on CCL is a bit wonky, would you? I've walked through the code quite a bit, rearranged things, used two sentinels, etc, stepped through the code in various situations, but I still get the deadlock. Works really nicely on SBCL, though. 19:10:20 stassats: Send me a screenshot showing it in action, and I'll blog about it! 19:10:26 i don't have any particularly good references, no 19:10:41 stassats: Along with a short description how to use it 19:11:24 hm. I guess I'll try and take a peek at art of multiproc and check if it's too overwhelming... 19:11:34 attila_lendvai: please send 3 different unified patches. those darcs bundles are unreadable 19:12:17 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:12:17 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:12:46 tcr: it's not much different than http://jsnell.iki.fi/blog/stc/slime-sprof.png 19:13:05 I know there is a WITH-INPUT-FROM-STRING, but I don't know what to use for a vector 19:14:06 stassats: Well, I give you the chance to show the world your color-theme =) 19:14:07 i'll add into the manual how to use it. 19:14:16 ampleyfly [n=ampleyfl@stalhein.lysator.liu.se] has joined #lisp 19:14:24 -!- emmy [n=a59bcafe@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-ezuvdfsyrrnktjnc] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:14:28 *show your color-theme to the world 19:14:41 stassats: do you have two cursors? 19:14:43 TAOMPP indeed is good, we're going to use it for a course next year 19:14:53 pete-m [n=pete@rrcs-71-40-184-7.se.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:15:00 how do I find out how many cons cells my functions have used? I seem to remember it had something to do with "time", but I also seem to be wrong since it only gives me a byte count. 19:15:20 ampleyfly: ROOM? 19:15:21 p0a: i have one personality, so i'm not jsnell 19:15:22 michaelw, pkhuong: Thanks. A few weeks ago I asked here about recommendations regarding TOAMPP . 19:15:29 p0a: there's something in ironclad to do what you want, but that might be a bit heavyweight for you 19:15:40 tcr: I probably missed that 19:15:50 froydnj: why? 19:16:34 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:16:40 I'd like to write the macro myself, but how exactly would I go on about doing this? Are there anonymous streams? Or do I have to fiddle with temporary files? (because my program already does this). 19:16:58 p0a: it would be trivial to create a gray stream to do what you want, or otherwise use a two-way-stream and write your vector to the input. 19:17:45 Pipe facility :-D. okay that's fun. 19:18:16 but I'd also like to know more about gray streams (because I don't know how to create one). do you have any recommendations? I haven't seen them mentioned much in the lisp books I've read though I think they're abstract IO streams 19:18:20 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:18:50 p0a: just because the code to do what you want is fairly small and ironclad would bring in a lot of other stuff 19:18:50 p0a: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Gray-Streams.html 19:19:38 froydnj: you're right, it's a cryptography package :-) 19:20:01 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-72-136.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 19:20:04 *p0a* doesn't touch anything SBCL/*CL specific 19:20:09 p0a: I might have missed it if someone else has pointed it out already, or perhaps I misunderstood the question, but flexi-streams implements the "input stream from a vector" thing. 19:20:20 p0a: it gives me some system wide statistics, isn't there anything nicer to report this on a per function basis? 19:21:03 -!- xvx [n=user01@189.139.218.80] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:21:06 ampleyfly: What do you mean with "how many conses my functions have used"? 19:21:10 Be more precise 19:21:37 are you looking for static analization, runtime (for instance your function might create conses based on the arguments, take LIST for example) 19:21:57 runtime usage 19:22:23 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.209.208] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 19:22:26 it's just a small function calling some others, returning a list as result 19:22:30 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:22:37 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:23:00 Does anyone want a list of CL: symbols that have meaning in more than one namespace? It was easy to get, but not exactly trivial. 19:23:43 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 19:24:13 jcowan: blog about it! 19:24:18 fe[nl]ix: how did you save the attachment? i just tried, saved the file, then "darcs apply -i /tmp/bt.patches" and it happily applies 19:24:30 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-185-243.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:24:34 Fare: Will do. 19:24:53 jcowan: wast there more to it than looping and querying symbol-function and symbol-value? 19:25:11 oh, and something about types... 19:25:33 lichtblau: you didn't. That's precisely what I'm looking for 'in memory streams'. thanks 19:25:54 attila_lendvai: If I can't read it first I won't apply it 19:26:39 fe[nl]ix: hi! 19:26:46 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:26:46 Fare: Actually I took the all-known-symbols on the CL web page and grepped for "Body/a_". 19:26:48 hi v0|d 19:26:59 fe[nl]ix: i want to ask whether if you have iolib performance results lately. 19:27:24 fe[nl]ix: a comparison across lisps would be ueber *cool*. 19:27:35 sorry, I don't 19:27:57 np, could you give us a little bit information about performance. 19:28:09 like throughput, concurrency 19:28:15 it's faster to write (1+ x) instead of (+ x 1) 19:28:28 one less space to type 19:28:32 indeed 19:28:40 or #'1+ than (lambda (x) (+ 1 x)) 19:28:49 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:29:33 v0|d: are you referring to the I/O multiplexer ? 19:29:36 Fare: (papply #'+ 1) 19:29:39 fe[nl]ix: definetly. 19:29:45 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 19:30:04 p0a: did alexandria finally rename curry? 19:30:12 I have no idea, because I've written no actual application that uses it 19:30:18 v0|d: you could ask lnostdal about that 19:30:25 sykopomp: Nope, PAPPLY is known to me from other sources 19:30:30 ah 19:30:40 hm. I'm sort of wondering... 19:30:51 curry? the father of HOT languages? 19:31:10 it seemed, when testing stuff out, that using symbol function designators was not only easier to type, but both CCL and SBCL seemed to handle them faster than (function 'foo) 19:31:15 *Fare* understands Cayenne better 19:31:50 anyone know how to use slot-boundp? 19:31:52 lnostdal: hi lars 19:31:56 Fare: there was discussion on the alexandria mailing list about renaming CURRY/RCURRY to something along the lines of PAPPLY/RPAPPLY 19:32:10 fe[nl]ix: hm 19:32:19 it's complaining that the slot is missing no matter what slot name I provide it 19:32:24 fe[nl]ix: that's wierd. i thought you've got some kind of info about it. 19:32:31 sykopomp, who's Mr Papply, and what did he discover? 19:32:53 hm 19:32:54 fe[nl]ix / v0|d, don't really have any throughput numbers; i did test 20 000 concurrent connections though, and that went fine 19:32:59 and slot-exists-p returns nil for every slot name :| 19:33:03 am I misusing these somehow? 19:33:08 ..stuff does seem plenty fast though 19:33:40 nevermind, got it 19:34:29 oh 19:34:35 lnostdal: how about paylod? 3-5K? 19:34:43 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:56 actually fxr and me always did http tests with first 5K data and something like 100K 19:35:31 fxr: Happy birthday! hehe 19:35:37 / #haskell 19:35:41 ops 19:35:46 *shrug* 19:35:49 tcr: here it is: http://common-lisp.net/~sboukarev/slime/slime_002dsprof.htm and http://common-lisp.net/~sboukarev/sprof.png 19:36:45 lnostdal: could you have any throughput info? 19:36:46 slime has a statistical profiler? 19:36:55 lnostdal: like serving static files, the basic situation. 19:37:06 i let lighttpd do that, v0|d 19:37:13 sykopomp: sbcl does 19:37:19 lnostdal: oh i see. 19:37:43 stassats: correct, but that doesn't look like sb-sprof :) 19:37:45 Well that is all folks. Bye 19:37:47 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-382733.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 19:37:47 and the first link doesn't work... 19:38:21 forget l, http://common-lisp.net/~sboukarev/slime/slime_002dsprof.html 19:38:25 forgot 19:38:47 yoonkn_ [n=yoonkn@112.169.40.70] has joined #lisp 19:38:51 Is it available from the file menu? 19:38:56 lnostdal, fe[nl]ix: please inform me when you have performance results of any kind. 19:39:08 i'd love to discuss. 19:39:09 stassats: There's typo: Disassabmle 19:40:33 v0|d: I'm not interested in benchmarking 19:40:33 Your example is boring :) 19:40:44 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:24 Russel-Athletic [n=engelzz@d174.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de] has joined #lisp 19:41:28 fe[nl]ix: why not? 19:41:30 hiho 19:42:28 v0|d: I have better things to do 19:42:37 -!- yoonkn [n=yoonkn@112.169.40.70] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:43:05 tcr: not available from the menu yet. 19:43:15 v0|d: OTOH, if you profile it and find slow spots I can work with you to improve it 19:43:25 i am new to lisp so i am not quite good with the package stuff: i have a package which uses the same names as :common-lisp and i get now a lot of conflict messages 19:43:47 fe[nl]ix: i'm not interested in. same here. 19:44:05 is this a feature of lisp, that you can't "overwrite" names in a different package, which where defined from one package you use? 19:44:23 No, it's a feature of the common-lisp: package. 19:44:27 v0|d, my main concern was really the ability to actually handle more than about 200 concurrent connections; the correct design or api for doing non-blocking i/o .. throughput isn't that interesting; one could have improved that using a threaded model or a non-blocking model .. 19:44:31 Everything in it is immutable. 19:45:00 lnostdal: that's same with me. 19:45:09 Either you should explicitly import nothing into your package (what you get by default is implementation-dependent, but includes cl:) 19:45:12 v0|d, ..but one could not "optimize" one's way, straight forward - to handle many concurrent connections 19:45:16 Russel-Athletic: see http://l1sp.org/cl/11.1.2.1.2 for info 19:45:20 mikejones [n=orly@66-162-68-162.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:24 lnostdal: but since fe[nl]ix done all the hard work, i thought he has the results. 19:45:27 or else you have to explicitly mark those as shadowing-imports. 19:45:38 Russel-Athletic: some implementations are active about preventing things in that list 19:46:05 lnostdal: i know, i feel generally we'r on the same ship, but serving files via my sbcl showed that throughput is important. 19:46:08 thanks 19:46:20 i dont want to boggle with lighthttp or apache any more. 19:46:34 or ngix. 19:47:16 -!- mikejones [n=orly@66-162-68-162.static.twtelecom.net] has left #lisp 19:47:49 so from a coding point of view, the code i am trying to get working is really bad code? 19:49:32 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 19:49:35 Russel-Athletic: well, normal CL code doesn't try to do things to symbols in the common-lisp package. Maybe there's a different approach to get the job done. 19:50:20 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:51:22 Russel-Athletic: if you want to use a name that is the same as a common-lisp symbol, you can shadow it 19:52:11 i perhaps should first look into what they are trying to do 19:52:55 but thanks anyway 19:54:39 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 19:55:56 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:58:07 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.221] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:58:34 lnostdal: hey, do you know about those copyleft guys? 19:59:22 v0|d, yeah, i saw them mentioned on reddit; i haven't heard of them before 19:59:35 -!- divisionbell [n=kenan@78.172.78.92] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:00:44 lnostdal: interesting, i thought you might know them. thanks anyway. 20:01:08 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:01:28 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:01:35 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.134] has quit ["so long.."] 20:06:22 fe[nl]ix: apply -i is interactive, you can y/n them and v them to view it 20:06:45 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:07:17 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:07:47 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-170-201-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:07:50 peddie [n=peddie@c-67-170-201-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:52 fe[nl]ix: i can only give my name to one of the patches, the timeout fix, which is a package problem on the sbcl backend 20:12:23 -!- Russel-Athletic [n=engelzz@d174.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de] has quit ["leaving"] 20:14:21 are there any postmodern (the library) developers here? 20:15:16 madnificent: i know the wire protocol part somewhat, but not the higher level abstraction 20:15:18 s 20:15:34 I'm getting an error 'connection already in use'. I'd kind of like to be able to have more than one person access the site at a given point in time. 20:15:38 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:16:24 attila_lendvai: doesn't postmodern automatically create new connections? 20:16:43 madnificent: better to ask on the pomo mailing list, in my experience the maintainer is quite fast 20:16:53 (if it does, I should double-check my code for idiotic mistakes that would limit it to using only 1 connection) 20:16:54 *attila_lendvai* looks at cl-rdbms. how it is using postmodern 20:17:00 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:18:37 madnificent: you need to have a separate connection for each thread, presumably in a special variable. IOW, wrap the request processing code in a with-transaction... 20:19:26 -!- zeroish` [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:19:26 -!- zeroish [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:19:34 -!- Samy is now known as sbahra 20:19:58 attila_lendvai: ah, I thought it would've created new connections automatically 20:20:07 thank you :D 20:20:23 madnificent: and who would have marked the transaction boundaries? 20:20:41 attila_lendvai: per query 20:20:41 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has quit [No route to host] 20:21:11 if you want a transaction, you could ask for it... if you don't ask for transaction support, then suppord for it isn't needed 20:21:25 envi_office2 [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 20:21:58 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:22:08 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 20:25:26 *jeti* has pasted his pomo macro to http://paste.lisp.org/display/87467 20:27:45 jeti: Why would you do that youself rather than using postmodern:with-connection or pomo:call-with-connection? 20:29:15 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.82.19] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:29:21 sorry I am noob and had problems at the beginning. on pomo mailing list I got this recommendation and it does fine 20:29:27 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@24.91.154.83] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:30:56 nikodemus: could with-deadline signal a timeout condition just like with-timeout? or some specific condition type i can dispatch on? 20:32:16 -!- pete-m [n=pete@rrcs-71-40-184-7.se.biz.rr.com] has quit ["Bad BitchX, bad BitchX, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when they come for you?"] 20:32:25 nikodemus: bah, ignore me, i was looking at signal-timeout, which i have no idea what it is. then i've found signal-deadline 20:33:37 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:34:39 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:36:07 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-10-171.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:38:00 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:38:32 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-2-62.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:39:47 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:39:57 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-133.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:40:03 drewc: the reason probably is that these functions were missing when I started in 2007 20:40:05 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@e179165019.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 20:40:39 -!- rickardg [n=user@c-4e7271d5.027-77-6c756e10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:41:56 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:44:25 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:47:15 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-133.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:49:47 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.209.208] has joined #lisp 20:53:59 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.221] has joined #lisp 20:56:27 -!- segv [n=mb@207.172.92.9] has quit [] 20:59:02 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:59:08 Anarch [n=olaf@c-24-18-229-67.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:38 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-28-152.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:11:03 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-28-152.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:54 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:12:17 manuel_: were you looking for me before? 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What if one of the slots in address book is a list of strings? I present them with format nil "~{~A~%~}". How can I accept a string with newlines and, using split-sequence, store it back? 22:43:35 What does "accepting a string" mean? 22:43:49 What does "storing a string back" mean? 22:44:05 clim:accept, i believe 22:44:06 Invalid index 0: must be between 0 and -1. 22:44:44 Then perhaps there's an option on the "widget" to allow for multiline input? 22:44:44 ak70``` [n=user@195.158.89.22] has joined #lisp 22:44:47 pjb: ah, "storing ..." was bad language on my part 22:45:09 a widget... I'm just using the interactor 22:45:38 you mean you want to enter a string manually? 22:45:40 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:45:45 Then again, I cannot say Select Entry x in the interactor where x is multiline either... 22:46:12 stassats: Yes, when I click on a multiline presentation, I want to be able to edit it. 22:46:35 Or rather, a presentation of a list of strings presented as a multiline string 22:46:55 Is it possible? Or is there a better way? 22:47:46 I guess I should ask a ClimMaster(TM) 22:48:09 divisionbell [n=kenan@78.172.78.92] has joined #lisp 22:48:18 -!- johnny_z [n=anonymou@217.24.250.130] has quit [] 22:48:49 No ClimMasters(TM) here? 22:49:13 *Sikander* is sad. 22:49:15 It seems that there's some method that could be overriden for a multi-line string accept. 22:49:29 ah 22:49:31 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/23-5.html 22:49:35 didn't find that, thanks 22:49:45 Specbot knows it: 22:49:51 clim: accept,Function 22:49:51 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/23-5.html#_1202 22:51:30 Xach: herep 22:51:40 haha. Clearly, that function needs more &key args :) 22:52:20 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:22 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 22:53:55 drakma:http-request has more, 29 22:53:57 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:54:11 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 22:54:13 ;_; 22:54:15 clim:accept has only 17 key argument 22:54:16 s 22:54:24 parameters, rather 22:54:48 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:54:50 stassats: seriously? good lord. 22:54:59 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 22:55:01 With a call-arguments-limit minumum of 50, 17 is nothing. 22:55:10 s/minu/mini 22:55:13 <_3b> better than 17 positional args :) 22:55:27 17 &optional would be extra-funny, imo 22:55:36 True but it still doesn't make me want to peek inside! 22:55:45 pjb: 17 keyargs means a max of 34 actual args 22:56:05 ah, I should probably us with-activation-gestures. 22:56:06 stassats: what is your opinion of drakma:http-request in general? 22:56:15 i like it 22:56:34 I'm inclined to as well, but I haven't used it much :) 22:56:48 there's one function in clim which has about 10 optional parameters and one &key 22:57:05 why is this done? D: 22:57:05 nice 22:57:14 keep 'em guessing 22:57:18 to annoy people 22:57:49 but, nothing is as annoying as read-from-string 22:57:51 <_3b> for best results, make the keyword a valid value for one of the optional args :) 22:58:05 aaronfeng [n=aaronfen@70-91-21-170-BusName-pa.panjde.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:12 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:58:13 Since mcclim has mcclim-freetype, is there also a way to draw with anti-aliasing? 22:58:16 fuck firefox 22:58:23 I'd rather not 22:58:24 oops wrong channel 22:58:25 (incf Adlai) 22:58:30 haha 22:58:37 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 22:58:39 uzbl 22:58:56 sadly, my uzbl is refusing to work these days 22:58:57 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 22:59:04 if only it had a lisp core, I could call a restart to fix it :P 22:59:04 uzbl seems okay, but it's too vimmy for me. 22:59:15 madnificent: so, it's not-uzbl 22:59:20 whenever I quit, it crashes :( 22:59:24 stassats: ? 22:59:25 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:59:28 Xach: http://www.xach.com/clhs?q=read-from-string doesn't work (502 Bad Gateway). Am I doing something wrong? 22:59:35 stassats: sigh 22:59:38 madnificent: uzbl ~ usable 22:59:41 stassats: dumb dmub dumb me 22:59:41 *Adlai* uses Conkeror but is stuck with Firefox while he repartitions 22:59:43 yes 22:59:55 sheesh, time I got to work and to bed right after it 23:00:04 conkeror is nice, but it would also be nice to be able to render with webkit. 23:00:13 Anyway, mcclim just looks weird with freetype, but with aliased lines/arrows/tabs etc. 23:00:14 conkeror still has some of Fx's bloat. 23:00:31 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-237.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:00:33 no one has a anti-aliasing hack somewhere? 23:00:36 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:00:39 yeah like starting 12 threads to load one page 23:00:39 sykopomp: i'm working on it 23:00:56 sykopomp: webkit+CL, that should work, no? 23:01:08 cluzbl? 23:01:11 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:01:11 sykopomp: use sockets for the communication (the way linux likes it) 23:01:14 or uzbcl? 23:01:33 -!- ak70`` [n=user@195.158.89.22] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:01:38 Sikander: somehow cluzbl sounds like a big hairy ball of wool 23:01:39 -!- md` [n=user@chello089173014026.chello.sk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:01:54 madnificent, maybe it could run on Sheeple 23:01:58 madnificent: I meant in spirit :) 23:02:03 also, it sounds like closable :P 23:02:10 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:02:13 Adlai: ^^ pun intended 23:02:15 which my uzbl now isn't 23:02:18 Adlai: and yes, it could :D 23:02:18 Xach: just checking that I was doing it right, no worries :) 23:02:21 Sikander: LoL 23:02:24 heheh 23:02:30 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:02:33 madnificent: actually, we could probably reimplement uzbl in CL. Have you looked at the source? 23:02:43 It would be cool! 23:02:48 mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@70.182.191.195] has joined #lisp 23:02:49 uzbl is all written in a single not-terribly-long .c file. 23:02:50 -!- jeti [n=jeti@p548EFDFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 23:02:57 sykopomp, we could probably implement anything in CL. 23:03:06 how difficult would it be to make ffi to webkit? 23:03:14 *Sikander* has never ffi'd 23:03:18 sykopomp: I deliberately did not... but it should be fairly simple... if you clone the fairly trivial communication interface, you could immediately throw it away again due to it being so rubbish :) 23:03:27 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:03:38 sykopomp: no, I liked using it, but the communication interface could probably be done in a more 'data on demand' manner 23:03:47 Sikander: doesn't gtkairo backend have anti-aliased lines? 23:04:12 stassats: gtkairo crashed my X, last time I tried... :( 23:04:23 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:04:28 stassats: you mean the mcclim backend, right? 23:04:37 I'll try again 23:05:01 yeah, gtkairo isn't uzbl for me 23:05:45 wilson [n=wilson@190.234.1.187] has joined #lisp 23:05:58 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:01 wait, no, that was png-bitmaps I think 23:06:12 how does one get the gtkairo backend working? 23:06:50 load clim-gtkairo system 23:06:51 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C0F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 23:07:43 Does it come with mcclim? I use clbuild, but (require :clim-gtkairo) doesn't work 23:08:13 it does 23:08:21 -!- nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:08:30 you need to load mcclim first 23:08:54 @ 23:09:01 it's defined in the same .asd 23:09:04 Ah, ok, compiling. thanks 23:10:14 isabellf [n=isabellf@bas2-montreal31-1242480105.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:11:00 -!- divisionbell [n=kenan@78.172.78.92] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:11:09 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:12 stassats: well, for this simple thing (basically a copy of address book), gtkairo works reasonably well. Looks better than default clx backend 23:12:43 Now to expand... 23:13:09 so, does it have anti-aliasing? 23:13:24 stassats: seems so, yes 23:14:19 The clim listener is borked, though... 23:14:24 Or at least its menu is 23:14:49 yeah, completely 23:15:28 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:15:40 clx backend is more stable 23:15:45 Xach: I posted a new "lisp"-tagged post a while back that hasn't shown up on planet.lisp.org yet. 23:16:00 ok 23:16:09 gigamonkey: i see it 23:16:28 is there a clx way to get aa? 23:16:32 There it is now. Thanks. 23:16:54 probably not, since you don't want fonts to be anti-aliased the way that drawings are, I guess... 23:17:06 Sikander: find some unsuitable glasses 23:17:14 (Tagged "lisp" because of the AI lab connection.) 23:17:15 stassats: check 23:17:19 it'll be blurry 23:17:33 stassats: I just put fingerprints on my glasses. works great! 23:17:40 great hack, thanks 23:17:41 heheh 23:18:18 gigamonkey: i'm paranoid about server switchover screwups 23:18:25 *Xach* has not yet got mail working properly 23:18:27 another way is to smoke something or drink something 23:19:07 Well, I'm basically bitching about anti-aliasing because I can't get my gui to look nice. But basically I'm blaming clx for my inability to do proper ui design 23:19:27 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-182-191-195.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:19:27 -!- mattrepl_ is now known as mattrepl 23:19:42 the clx backend has this great retro xaw look ;) 23:20:35 well, you can always make it look better 23:20:56 by drawing my own widgets, you mean? 23:21:02 right 23:21:05 :( 23:21:09 I'm no artist. 23:21:14 nothing is free 23:21:35 dang 23:22:04 I can try to work on gtkairo, or is it a swamp? 23:22:14 "Free advice is worth what you pay for it." 23:22:25 attention? 23:23:09 Is anyone still actively working on gtkairo? 23:23:16 i'll be glad if you'll make gtkairo a little better 23:23:20 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 23:23:47 I'd like to give it a shot. It might improve my lisp understanding and skills, but it might also send me crying for mommy 23:24:03 well, you are saying this like someone is actively working on other parts of mcclim currently 23:24:06 If the state of clim-gtkairo is such that the latter is more likely, I'm not sure... 23:24:51 hum, isn't mcclim mostly clim2 already? 23:24:51 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:25:13 it is, but needs huge amounts of love 23:25:44 I might first try to chase down that other bug involving with-room-for-graphics not treating clipping-regions correctly 23:26:30 At least, I assume it is a bug... 23:27:06 gtkairo also sucks because it doesn't redraw! 23:27:30 at least, not when switching desktops/tags/whatever the kids call them nowadays 23:27:48 i have code where gtkairo redraws better than clx, go figure 23:27:56 ? 23:28:42 That's weird. You hacked some of it? Or do you mean in an application? 23:28:59 in an application 23:29:18 weird 23:29:26 emma [n=em@cpe-98-14-154-166.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:48 -!- isabellf [n=isabellf@bas2-montreal31-1242480105.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:30:52 stassats: do you contribute (now and then) to mcclim? Or just write gui's in it? 23:31:12 the latter 23:31:28 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-168-133.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:31:32 ah 23:31:53 well, I'm off to bed. Thanks for the help/hints/tips etc. 23:32:00 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:32:30 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:17 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.177.79.117] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:36:30 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has joined #lisp 23:43:04 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:45:10 -!- kerimbasol_ [n=kerim@85.107.165.62] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:45:38 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:45:39 kerimbasol [n=kerim@85.107.168.36] has joined #lisp 23:47:18 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.98.34] has joined #lisp 23:47:48 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 23:49:15 isabellf [n=isabellf@bas2-montreal31-1242480105.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:50:07 -!- wilson [n=wilson@190.234.1.187] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:52:12 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:53:03 Okay, thwapers, should it be "Bell Labs' Plan 9" or "Bell Labs's Plan 9" 23:53:26 *_3b* would use the first 23:53:32 the first one 23:53:36 gigamonkey: the first imo 23:53:42 agree 23:53:49 Well, at least there's no controversy. 23:53:52 ^^ 23:54:21 gigamonkey, first because "Labs" is plural 23:54:24 it should be Plan 9 from Bell Labs 23:54:49 stassats is correct about that, though :) 23:54:53 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:55:16 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:55:17 Adlai: how about Lispworks's Common Lisp implementation? 23:55:56 Adlai: Yeah, obviously that's the theory. I guess I was just wondering if there was any theory that "Bell Labs" is, in some sense, a name that happens to end in 's' (because, historically, it was formed from a plural.) 23:56:05 that's easy: Harlequin's Common Lisp 23:56:30 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:27 Well, from http://www.alcatel-lucent.com/wps/portal/BellLabs/History they have "Learn about Bell Labs' pivotal role ...' 23:58:34 so there it is. 23:59:13 interesting implementation trick in ACL: alignment checking is turned on when possible. That way, they can simply index off pointers and assume it's correctly tagged. If it's not, they'll get an unaligned address and an exception. 23:59:59 <``Erik> <-/cl