00:02:27 lisppaste the form. 00:03:11 How is that confusing? 00:03:59 _3b: do you have a middle name that starts with a #\B? 00:04:19 <_3b> luis: no middle name 00:04:57 kingless [n=user@adsl-144-140-128.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:04 _2b would seem more appropriate then! 00:05:19 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp122.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 00:05:27 lisppaste: url? 00:05:28 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 00:05:47 <_3b> the 3 is a version #, not a multiplier/exponent :p 00:06:34 Hmm, Bart junior junior? 00:06:39 <_3b> III 00:07:05 Is it part of your name? 00:07:23 billy_ [n=billy@cpe-76-180-83-221.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:07:23 http://paste.lisp.org/display/87299 ; any cl-irc users/developers here? :P 00:07:25 That would be awesome. :) 00:08:17 Makoryu: yeah, that warning seems pretty selfexplanatory 00:08:21 i'm reading through some packages and was wondering what the %somefunc naming convention means? 00:08:22 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-225.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:08:37 isn't that a scheme thing? 00:08:56 ive seen it in cl stuff, i dunno 00:09:15 minion: naming convention 00:09:15 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 00:09:23 buh 00:09:36 billy_: it usually means "internal function, don't use directly" 00:09:47 minion: naming conventions 00:09:48 naming conventions: Some symbol naming conventions, distilled from CLHS, the Lisp FAQ, and comp.lang.lisp. http://www.cliki.net/naming%20conventions 00:10:04 Guest12841 [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-225.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:10:32 -!- Guest12841 [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-225.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:10:34 luis: thanks, that's what i thought 00:10:52 billy_: the description in that page is probably more accurate 00:10:59 <_3b> luis: that's what it says on my birth certificate and such 00:11:56 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:58 Zoba [n=Zoba@cpe-071-070-152-211.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:12:46 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-225.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:12:56 aledge [n=aledge@c-66-31-201-186.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:10 <_3b> literal: get cl-irc from svn (or whatever it is in) 00:13:30 Version, eh? Perhaps the third b stands for "Beta"? 00:14:14 _3b: will do 00:14:31 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 00:14:45 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 00:15:51 -!- sohail1 [n=sohail@69-165-148-98.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:16:12 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@70.226.85.68] has joined #lisp 00:20:20 -!- aledge [n=aledge@c-66-31-201-186.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["^D"] 00:20:29 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-smtbmmvkwgqguhoj] has quit [] 00:22:22 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 00:24:36 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@70.226.85.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:24:36 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2D3ED.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 00:24:42 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.224.39] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:25:30 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-70-226-85-68.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:31 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.225.233] has joined #lisp 00:29:08 Ralith, tcr: It doesn't explain what the actual problem was, that being that I'd written (&optional #'foo) instead of (&optional (bar #'foo)) 00:29:14 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 00:30:11 jan247_ [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 00:30:23 sohail [n=sohail@69-165-148-98.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:30:45 deshkanna [n=chatzill@122.167.93.125] has joined #lisp 00:32:14 Makoryu: (lambda (&optional (function foo)) ...) is a perfectly valid lambda list. 00:32:34 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:33:24 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.108.61] has joined #lisp 00:34:36 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:34:49 <_3b> what do i need to do to run ccl from clbuild? 00:36:09 Makoryu: do you not know that #'foo is (function foo)? 00:36:56 Sorry if this sounds snarky, but is there something about installing ccl that makes it necessary to use another tool? 00:37:22 <_3b> rme: it installed fine, just can't get clbuild to start it :p 00:37:36 pkhuong: It certainly is. 00:38:07 <_3b> rme: mostly my problem was forgetting the trailing / when adding the clbuild systems dir to asdf:*central-registry* though :) 00:38:37 Ralith: I do. It just took me a bit longer to make sense of the message. 00:38:41 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-nsmseiatdoigwkyl] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:38:46 Granted, as a heuristic, fishy lambda lists or let bindings could be pointed out on unused or undeclared special variables. 00:38:56 Ralith: I guess I shouldn't be complaining? THough it's not really a complaint... 00:39:47 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:40:34 Makoryu: you're using emacs+slime, right? 00:41:42 Ralith: Yep. With SBCL 00:42:10 then the underlining of errors should have made that pretty unambiguous, no? 00:42:38 It wasn't an error, it was a warning. 00:42:57 then the underlining of warnings should have made that pretty unambiguous, no? 00:43:09 All right, how do I get underlined warnings? 00:43:36 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-225.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:43:53 Makoryu: Compile the form in a Slime (mode) buffer. 00:44:31 *Makoryu* pokes around and finds 'slime-compile-file, which he was not previously aware of 00:44:59 Makoryu: C-c C-k 00:45:07 Thanks :p 00:45:10 Makoryu: also, C-c C-c for just the current top-level form. 00:45:23 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 00:45:36 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:46:15 Awesome, this is much friendlier than M-x slime-eval-buffer 00:46:19 -!- jan247_ [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:46:35 indeed. 00:47:06 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.218.112] has joined #lisp 00:47:13 (I'm not exactly used to Emacs. I know most of the navigation commands by heart but I'm generally at a loss using it for anything but prose) 00:48:29 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has left #lisp 00:48:51 dubhdara [n=mandolin@dialup-4.154.5.38.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:43 hi 00:49:46 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 00:49:50 C-h b helps a lot in learning more 00:51:10 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-74-121.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 00:52:54 -!- deshkanna [n=chatzill@122.167.93.125] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:53:22 -!- dubhdara [n=mandolin@dialup-4.154.5.38.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net] has left #lisp 00:53:44 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-1-245.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:54:49 deshkanna [n=chatzill@122.167.93.125] has joined #lisp 00:54:51 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-1-245.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:55:24 ericklc [n=ikki@189.139.59.135] has joined #lisp 00:55:45 c|mell [n=cmell@KD124213182069.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:57:12 dubhdara [n=mandolin@dialup-4.154.5.38.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:19 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:58:56 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:58:58 very quiet in here 00:59:21 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:44 coliv [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:51 jan247_ [n=jan247@222.127.211.45] has joined #lisp 01:00:49 sohail [n=sohail@69-165-148-98.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:01:13 -!- dubhdara [n=mandolin@dialup-4.154.5.38.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net] has left #lisp 01:03:20 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 01:04:12 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:04:40 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 01:04:53 sohail [n=sohail@69-165-148-98.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:05:17 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-1-245.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:07:51 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:08:31 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.108.61] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:08:37 -!- ericklc is now known as ikki 01:11:57 too quiet 01:12:28 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.220.92] has joined #lisp 01:13:29 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:14:13 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 01:14:44 Well, it used to be quiet. 01:14:54 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-1-245.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:16:12 signal sure hasn't gone up lately. 01:16:30 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-1-245.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:16:32 I am an old programmer but a lisp newbie, mostly lurking here while I type a few functions into a checkbook balancing program. :) teaching myself. 01:16:40 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-1-245.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:18:06 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-1-245.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:19:29 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 01:20:11 ruediger [n=ruediger@93-82-5-92.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 01:20:29 -!- jan247_ [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:20:40 Hi guys, I have some weird problem with with-open-file and two functions I defined. 01:21:11 minion: lisppaste for Sikander 01:21:12 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 01:21:54 kingless: are you reading "Successful Lisp"? 01:23:12 "Successful Lisp", Seibel's book, and "ANSI Common Lisp". 01:23:19 felzix [n=chatzill@204-16-153-50-static.ipnetworksinc.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:43 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has left #lisp 01:23:53 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-1-245.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:23:59 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 01:25:14 Sikander pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87302 01:25:28 I like all of those, although keep in mind that Paul Graham had (he doesn't really use Common Lisp anymore) some odd ideas about style. PCL is a much better example. 01:25:39 While lots of functions are missing from the paste, it's still readable code (I guess) 01:26:21 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B035.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:26:33 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 01:27:02 Adlai: can you have a look at the paste? the strange thing is that the first function succeeds with a with-open-file, but the second function fails; it errors during the call to the first function. 01:27:04 I'm no judge (yet). Forgot to mention Norvig's 2 AI books. 01:27:10 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-1-245.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:27:47 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-1-245.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:28:04 hi 01:28:05 Sikander: as a general style issue, (length (setf line (chop line))) is not ideal 01:28:52 Adlai: Ok, duely noted :) I should do this in two different lines or so, I guess 01:29:39 Adlai: The strange thing is that the first function succeeds when calling it on a stream opened with with-open-file, but the second one doesn't. It fails with the error raised by the first function. 01:29:42 yep -- if you use CHOP often, you could (define-modify-macro chopf chop), and then just do (chopf line) and then calculate (length line) 01:30:10 off the top of my head, you might need to tell READ you're using it recursively 01:30:37 I'm not too familiar with stream operations, though. If that is the case, it would be with read-subtitle-entry 01:30:40 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-1-245.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:31:02 actually, wait, that's not the case. never mind... 01:31:07 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-1-245.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:31:18 whew, I was getting really confused there... 01:33:05 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.59.135] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:33:14 Wait a minute, the code here might not actually be complete. You may be right that the error occurs in read-subtitle-entry. Lemme have a look 01:33:50 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:25 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:36:44 Adlai: woo, without having seen the rest of the code you managed to find the bug! 01:37:04 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:37:34 Sikander: great, glad I could help :P 01:37:36 Adlai: the error does not occur where the second function calls the first. It occurs when read-subtitle-entry calls the first, while it shouldn't have. 01:38:05 mind if I suggest some stylistic improvements to the code you pasted? 01:38:19 Adlai: I was about to ask that. Please do 01:38:30 *Sikander* is eager to learn. 01:38:49 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 01:39:13 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:39:42 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 01:39:46 ok, this is a general style issue... it looks as though subrip-p and microdvd-p return either NIL or a type 01:39:48 oops sorry 01:40:09 yeah. they used to return T or NIL. I have to change the name 01:40:10 what do subrip-p and microdvd-p return? 01:40:14 ok 01:40:32 I think it would be better to design your "type system" like this: 01:40:33 As I was writing, I noticed I needed more information 01:40:51 define the types SUBRIP and MICRODVD 01:40:53 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:41:28 redblue [i=star@ppp103.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:41:41 then have a function SUBTITLE-TYPE-OF which returns a type or signals the error 01:41:55 if you don't know how to define types: 01:42:01 -!- deshkanna [n=chatzill@122.167.93.125] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:42:02 At the moment, both return a type struct which contains a name symbol ('SUBRIP or 'MICRODVD), a read function and a parse function 01:42:17 clhs deftype 01:42:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_deftp.htm 01:42:25 hmmm I guess specbot is asleep. 01:43:19 -!- prxq_ [n=mommer@f051199061.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:43:29 prxq_ [n=mommer@f051165233.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 01:43:46 what is exactly the difference between a type and struct? Or rather, why is my current approach less nice (from a style point)? 01:43:52 ah 01:43:52 hmmmmm. I think you want CLOS generic functions here. 01:43:52 ie, forget types, define subrip and microdvd as classes, and then have generic functions for read-subtitle-entry and parse-subtitle-entry which dispatch on the class 01:44:51 I thought clos was a bit too heavy for something like this. a well-placed funcall wrapped in read-subtitle-entry and parse-subtitle-entry does the trick for now 01:44:51 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:45:00 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:13 is it generally useful to immediately go for clos? 01:45:26 Sikander: a type is defined as a set of objects generally 01:46:13 to _immediately_ for CLOS? yes. 01:47:03 to settle on CLOS when you've got your algorithms and program design sorted out and you profile and find that CLOS-related stuff is the bottleneck even on a good compiler? OK, maybe then you can switch to writing out simpler dispatch. 01:47:14 ok. Well, I guess it's because I read ansi common lisp, that I'm a bit weary of using clos. Never have used it yet. but I'm still new to lisp 01:47:34 ANSI Common Lisp is an awful book for learning ANSI Common Lisp. 01:47:41 :) 01:47:44 I also have PCL 01:47:48 Which I also read 01:47:55 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:47:56 now that is a fine book for learning ANSI Common Lisp 01:48:01 :) 01:48:10 Xach: a dead sexy one, right? 01:48:10 while structures are objects which are compound of slots or so :-) 01:48:19 what's bad about ACL? 01:49:12 Adlai: I thought to do it the other way around. Since I've never used clos, and structs with funcalls work fine, I just used that. And only if I need the power of clos, then start using it. Bad idea? 01:51:46 minion: graham-crackers for kingless 01:51:47 kingless: look at graham-crackers: An critique of Paul Graham's coding style, specifically as found in his book "ANSI Common Lisp", available here: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html 01:51:47 So, it's not nice to put functions in structs and use those? Since the functions are not methods working on the object itself, I thought to avoid clos... 01:52:19 kingless: It's more about Lisp-the-concept, through a Paul Graham filter, than CL the language 01:52:38 kingless: it shortchanges CLOS, packages, the condition system, loop, and other things. 01:52:38 Sikander: generic functions are about behavior, not modifying objects. This is a fundamental difference between CLOS's methods and "normal OO" methods. 01:52:56 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:52:57 thanks guys, I'll take a look. 01:53:06 While during reading through ACL, I definately got the idea that Paul Graham doesn't really like lisp, but there were still some awesome things there. But PCL is indeed the better book. 01:53:18 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-1-245.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:53:27 kingless: I actually really like some of PG's Lisp ideas, but they don't really mesh well with modern CL. 01:53:36 what does everyone think of "On Lisp" ? 01:53:40 Adlai: so... putting functions in structs is a no-no? 01:53:52 Sikander: it seems clear to me from ACL that he dislikes Common Lisp quite a bit. 01:53:52 that's where I 1st got interested. 01:54:16 Sikander: and, of course, from his other statements to the effect of "common lisp is awful" 01:54:19 Xach: I agree, I just didn't want to put it that strongly :) 01:54:28 It's not a no-no, but I'm just recommending that you use CLOS unless you find that method dispatch is a bottleneck. 01:54:40 Ok. 01:54:47 CLOS is on my to-do list 01:54:56 maybe he's just pushing arc, which doesn't appeal to me. 01:55:08 Other useful comments are welcome 01:55:28 arc is a pile of excrement 01:55:55 Sikander: if you don't need extensiblity, etypecase can be good enough. 01:56:06 kingless: On Lisp is a great CL book, although it's from before ANSI CL was standardized. It's also from before PG started really hating CL. 01:56:09 weirdo: I am interested in hearing a soundly reasoned and well thought out review of its failings in contrast to other modern Lisp dialects 01:56:32 weirdo: Mainly because "ARC SUCKS!!!" is what everyone is already saying, so it's kind of redundant 01:58:00 pkhuong: woo, etypecase looks interesting too. So I'll have to look into both CLOS and deftype/etypecase 01:58:08 I wonder why did he start hating CL? Upon reading one of his essays, i had the impression that he is the type that only likes small beautiful programs, but I may be wrong about this. 01:58:08 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-225.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:58:14 try both out, see what fits 01:58:19 (Personally I think it would be hilarious if the Arc logo was changed to a stylized "'()") 01:58:45 I liked how he considered OO so inferior 01:59:38 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:59:44 It's not like CLOS and what popular OO languages are much alike though. 01:59:46 I have to admit, though, I never liked OO in e.g. C++ but in python it's awesome 01:59:48 how pleasant! this just worked! 01:59:51 (with-input-from-string (s "2009 9 22") (list (read s) (read s) (read s))) 01:59:59 (2009 9 22) 02:00:27 but does the style suck? :) 02:01:02 I'm not sure whether it "sucks", but there's a more idiomatic way of writing that 02:01:23 please tell. 02:01:25 Adlai: Is there an existing chop macro?! I made one from string-trim with a fixed set of characters that made sense 02:02:16 *Sikander* is also interested in more style remarks that Adlai can give. 02:02:43 Teach us, master 02:02:45 *araujo* hoped Arc was something more ......... revolutionary though 02:03:59 Adlai pasted "loop example for kingless" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87303 02:04:35 Sikander: don't disillusion yourself, I'm no master... been coding CL for only 5-6 months 02:04:55 o_O 02:05:10 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@93-82-5-92.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:05:13 adlai: thanks! see it. 02:05:14 and no, I don't know of any existing chop macro 02:05:37 Adlai: oh, ok, because you made a comment with regard to chop and chopf 02:05:44 loop is awesome! 02:05:45 Sikander: (define 02:05:47 -eh 02:05:52 but format is _more_ awesome! 02:06:07 (define-modify-macro chopf chop) => do this after you (defun chop ...) 02:06:27 Oh, right, I see 02:06:31 eh, wait, a bit more complicated than that 02:06:48 yeah, but I think I see where you're going 02:07:02 araujo: That's the problem with a "Like Lisp... but better!" language. PG adored existing Lispisms enough that any possible improvement he could make on them, even if it *was* an improvement, would necessarily be evolutionary, not revolutionary 02:07:32 evolutionary ....... 02:07:35 mmm.. 02:08:25 Sikander: what is supposed to chop does? 02:08:35 (define-modify-macro chopf () chop) 02:08:40 araujo: I'd really like to see what he would have made if he'd known J. 02:09:15 davazp: (string-trim '(#\Space #\Tab #\Newline #\Return) x) 02:09:34 davazp: I just defined it, because I thought I'd use it a lot with that particular list. 02:09:40 (and I do) 02:09:47 *Adlai* envisions JArc... it would be pure line noise! 02:09:50 any set of macros can be that evolutionary 02:10:13 *Sikander* is afraid of JArc and cries a little. 02:10:28 oh, thanks, then I don't know any existing chop macro 02:11:07 Earlier, I just had the list defined as a global parameter, but found that I never needed to alter it. So I decided to just define the function chop instead 02:11:22 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 02:11:28 which list? 02:11:48 Makoryu, now you mention J ... and .. mm.. it is probably off-topic in this channel ... I have been working on designing a new language taking ideas from it 02:11:51 the list I give to string-trim in the definition of chop 02:12:22 ah 02:12:33 Makoryu, i think it is a kind of programming with lot of space to explore yet 02:12:55 Adlai: what do you use cl for (mostly)? 02:13:05 Sikander: I'd call that function whitespace-trim instead of chop. 02:13:12 minion: sheeple for Sikander 02:13:13 Sikander: look at sheeple: Sheeple is a Dynamic, CLOS-like, Delegative Prototype-based Object-Oriented Programming Framework (or "POOP Framework") that strives to optimize application flexibility, minimize cost while increasing value, maximize programmer resources, and empower application implementers to better assist them in leveraging modern paradigms in order to proactively achieve next-generation synergy in tomorrow's web 3.0 world. http://www.cliki.net/ 02:13:30 araujo: A number of J's trademark function-juggling idioms are used to a certain extent in Haskell... Most of the others take advantage of the unusual type system 02:13:39 Oh yeah, I remember. I'd never seen a larger density of buzz words! 02:13:39 oh god sykopomp should do something about that first sentance. 02:14:14 so yeah, I've mainly been hacking Sheeple lately, although I also have done a bit of random other stuff with CL 02:14:34 I'm just writing several small, silly things to get more confident in CL programming. Hence the subtitle thing 02:14:58 So if you have more stylistic suggestions... 02:15:48 so sheeple would b next-generation clos? 02:16:01 They could've fit `moving forward` in there. 02:16:18 Sikander: I'm not sure if "next-generation" is the right word... 02:16:28 I'm a bit disappointed: web 3.0? Not hyper-quantum computing? 02:16:37 drhodes: "going forward" would fit in nicely at the end, as well. 02:17:04 Adlai: intermediate-generation? 02:17:19 The way I think of it, Sheeple is an attempt to apply the ideas of CLOS and AMOP to object-based programming. 02:17:28 *Adlai* doesn't like the phrase "Prototyping OO" 02:17:36 ah, ok. 02:17:50 Adlai: you don't like POO? 02:17:57 Well, who does... 02:18:30 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:18:52 Adlai: Anyway, if you have no more style suggestions, I'm turning in for the night. Thanks for the help! 02:19:07 well, I do have some more suggestions to the code you pasted 02:19:15 oh, I'm listening 02:19:24 but I think your code is going to look different anyways, once you use CLOS or typecase 02:19:57 General remarks? parens placement, indentation etc (done by the editor anyway) 02:20:12 oh, that stuff was fine. Let me look at the code again... 02:20:39 I tend to make the names of my functions relatively long, but also somewhat descriptive. I think it's a reasonably good practice... 02:21:08 ok, so one thing is the way you use AND 02:21:44 I use AND and OR a lot. Probably abusing it 02:22:13 you can use combinations of WHEN and UNLESS, and your code will be clearer 02:22:34 -!- jikanter [n=jordan@24-148-12-119.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:22:41 sounds good. 02:22:59 AND and OR give shorter code, but they get a bit confusing when you use them for control flow rather than logic. 02:24:25 I thought it was nifty, but if it's less clear, then I shall avoid it 02:25:12 The nice thing of AND is that it returns the last result 02:25:25 But I see that WHEN does so as well 02:25:38 Wait 02:25:56 if one of the AND forms fails, it returns NIL. WHEN works differently 02:26:06 Not good, some of my code relies on AND's behavior 02:26:20 WHEN and UNLESS are wrappers around IF 02:26:32 yeah, I read that 02:27:05 Hmmm, I'll have a look. There are definately places where AND can be replaced by WHEN, making my code clearer. 02:27:21 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:27 for example, you could rewrite the first function... 02:27:34 -!- felzix [n=chatzill@204-16-153-50-static.ipnetworksinc.net] has left #lisp 02:27:37 But sometimes I use AND, relying on the way it returns 02:27:46 Adlai annotated #87302 "rewrite" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87302#1 02:27:57 ehhh gah sorry about that bogus paste. 02:28:48 Yeah, you only added a newline! 02:28:55 I already put a WHEN in there 02:28:57 and so to bed, thanks all. 02:29:01 -!- kingless [n=user@adsl-144-140-128.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:29:36 jan247_ [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 02:29:57 -!- jan247_ [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:30:56 Adlai annotated #87302 "rewrite (really this time)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87302#2 02:31:36 Sikander: still there? That's how I'd write the first function, without changing the way subrip-p and microdvd-p work. 02:32:10 Nice 02:32:31 It's a bit more verbose, but I think it's also more "readable" 02:32:53 Yeah, looks good. 02:33:28 Btw I named the function "chop" and not whitespace-trim, because of perl, python etc which use chop 02:34:03 So you use the style where a trailing f is a destructive function? 02:34:12 (similar to ! in scheme) 02:34:25 in CL you generally use longer and clearer names 02:34:38 longer than I'm using? 02:35:01 well, "chop" could do lots of things, while whitespace-trim or even whitespace-trim-string is very clear. 02:35:02 Oh, sorry, you mean with regards to chop. Sure, I may actually change it now 02:35:12 I agree 02:35:15 I'd look at the definition of chop if I came across it when reading new code 02:35:38 Maybe I'll go back to defining *whitespace* as a variable and just use (string-trim *whitespace* s) 02:35:57 how about that? 02:36:00 obscurious [n=obscurio@c-98-232-244-197.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:22 if I came across a function whitespace-trim-string, I'd probably not look at it unless it was causing bugs or bottlenecks 02:37:03 But then you'd like (string-trim *whitespace* s) as well, right? I think that's what I'll do. 02:37:05 you could do that, it's a more flexible solution. I don't see why you need that flexibility though. 02:37:28 Well, if I'm going to use whitespace-trim anyway, why not do it like this... 02:37:31 actually, if you want *whitespace*, I'd just check it within string-trim 02:37:44 oh hm. 02:37:57 forget that last sentance. :) 02:38:09 jikanter [n=jordan@24-148-12-119.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:38:18 oh and to answer your question about the trailing f -- that's for setf wrappers 02:38:21 <_3b> does ccl have a profiler? 02:38:52 If I'm going to use a "long" descriptive name like "whitespace-trim-string", then I might as well just do it in the *whitespace* fashion. 02:39:00 _3b: http://ccl.clozure.com/ccl-documentation.html#Profiling 02:39:09 ah, the f makes sense then. 02:39:43 is there a convention like ! in scheme for CL? I mean then for general destructive functions, not only setf wrappers 02:39:50 <_3b> Adlai: ah, thanks, looks like too much work :) 02:40:03 That's the spirit ;) 02:40:04 there are two conventions... 02:40:29 _3b: I do interactive development on CCL but then switch to SBCL for profiling :) 02:40:47 <_3b> switching to sbcl doesn't help figure out wht ccl compiles so slow :p 02:40:56 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:41:07 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:41:15 Sikander: the two conventions are a prefixed "n" and "delete" instead of "remove" 02:41:22 _3b: there's also an advice-based profiler in ccl:tools;advice-profiler; if you want to take a look at that. 02:41:49 so these are destructive functions: nconc, nintersection, delete-duplicates 02:41:54 Adlai: the latter seems more specific. The former I sort of guessed indeed, from the various functions 02:42:07 and these are their nondestructive counterparts: append, intersection, remove-duplicates 02:42:32 in other words: there is no convention, have the CLHS (or specbot) within reach. 02:42:32 yeah. It would be good to keep with that style 02:42:49 Ok, thanks 02:43:01 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:43:05 any more tips? I need to go to bed at a certain point :) 02:43:11 Read other people's code. 02:43:29 Yeah, atm I'm looking at shuffletron 02:43:38 also useful for ffi 02:43:50 ffi examples 02:43:59 from what i understand, the nfuncs stand for "non-consing", which means it reuses cons cells instead of creating new ones 02:44:17 billy_: same with "delete" 02:44:33 although the delete functions work on vectors as well 02:44:52 Ok then, I'm off to bed. 02:44:55 Sikander: another good library to look at is alexandria 02:45:03 minion: tell Sikander about Alexandria 02:45:03 Sikander: please see Alexandria: Alexandria is a collection of portable public domain utilities. http://www.cliki.net/Alexandria 02:45:15 You mean to use, or to read, or both? 02:45:19 both 02:45:40 ok, bookmarked. Thanks for your help 02:45:45 it's public domain, too, so if you like a few of the functions but don't want to add a dependancy, you can just copy them in. 02:46:12 no problem, I'm glad to see another person getting interested in CL :) 02:46:41 :) Maybe I can learn more from you sometime later. Now I'm off to bed. 02:46:43 Goodnight 02:46:43 _3b pasted "ccl slow compilation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87304 02:46:50 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:47:25 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 02:47:36 <_3b> i let the file that was based on compile for an hour or so before giving up 02:48:14 -!- Zoba [n=Zoba@cpe-071-070-152-211.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:48:39 _3b: you might have more luck in #ccl, although I think it's a fairly quiet channel. 02:49:27 (sb-mop:set-funcallable-instance-function (vec-new '(1 2)) (lambda () T)); as I understand it, this will set a slot in the result of vec-new to the lambda. This is the only reference I could find on duplicating python's __call__ method, http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Metaobject-Protocol.html - using (:metaclass funcallable-standard-class)) 02:49:42 hmm, breaking mid-compile reveals what looks like a very very bottomless recursion. 02:50:32 <_3b> yeah, it did seem to change over time though, and it is a big expression if it inlines the entire thing 02:50:49 drhodes: funcallable classes are specified in the AMOP proposal for a CLOS MOP, so I think that other implementations have them too. 02:50:55 minion: closer-mop for drhodes 02:50:56 drhodes: please see closer-mop: Closer to MOP is a compatibility layer that rectifies many of the absent or incorrect MOP features as detected by MOP Feature Tests. http://www.cliki.net/closer-mop 02:51:20 Adlai: thanks a bunch, I have another tree to bark up :) 02:51:22 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:51:36 <_3b> with the notinline though, my model viewer sample app runs on ccl too :) 02:52:06 _3b: sounds like http://trac.clozure.com/openmcl/ticket/186 02:52:48 <_3b> rme: yeah, that sounds like it 02:52:57 _3b: Break it down with incf? 02:53:25 <_3b> pkhuong: not my code, so was hoping for less intrusive changes :) 02:54:06 *_3b* will just go with #+ccl(declare (notinline +)) 02:54:20 _3b: you might want to note on the ticket that you ran into this bug 02:54:28 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:54:36 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:42 spacebat [n=akhasha@118.210.192.189] has joined #lisp 02:54:52 I doubt any CL implementation (that supports threads anyway) will perform CSE on the redundant matrix accesses... or factor out the (+ (* x ...) (* x ...) (* x ...)) 02:57:02 <_3b> rme: do i need to login or something to do that? 02:57:52 _3b: yeah,we make you register or we get overrun by spammers. 02:58:04 <_3b> pkhuong: no idea, i'm not really worried about performance at the moment, mostly just trying to avoid implementing a bunch of matrix/vector code :) 02:59:42 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-149-10.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:01:38 girzel [n=user@123.121.239.234] has joined #lisp 03:02:10 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:33 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 03:05:13 how can i reverse video for the cursor-highlight thing when on 03:05:13 console ? 03:05:18 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.164.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:05:27 So I learn today that Apress may have sold the translation rights for PCL for more languages than just Japanese. 03:05:33 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 03:05:49 You'd think they'd tell me these things. Jeesh. 03:05:56 (if window system (setq hl-line-face blah)) ?? 03:06:29 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp103.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:07:28 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 03:07:36 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:08:13 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:42 Samy [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:35 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:12:19 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:12:26 redblue [i=star@ppp088.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:14:22 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@118.210.39.79] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:14:24 thanks again Adlai, closer-mop worked. 03:14:38 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:17:04 drhodes: great. It's actually a bit annoying that something which Python has built-in is not part of the ANSI spec... and it's great that the portability layer works :) 03:18:43 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:19:44 gigamonkey: The publishing industry sounds almost as fair and fun as the music industry! 03:21:03 Makoryu: in a certain sense, the "music industry" is a publishing industry too. 03:21:33 Adlai: Of course. 03:22:09 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 03:23:27 Makoryu: well, I don't think they're cheating me--at least the one translation I know about they actually did pay me what they owed me; they just neglected to ever tell me that the book was coming out. 03:23:45 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:23:53 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:30:17 -!- billy_ [n=billy@cpe-76-180-83-221.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["leaving"] 03:30:48 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:32:39 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-1-245.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:38:21 gigamonkey: If you handed over subsidiary language rights to Apress in your contract then they can certainly sell whatever they like (and not have to ask or even tell you), though they should be providing quarterly or bi-annual reports on royalties 03:39:10 girzel: Sure. But you'd think they'd *want* to tell me: "Hey, we just made you some more money!" 03:39:45 I get a quarterly royalties report but it's not broken out in a way that made it obvious to me when they paid me for the Japanese licensing. 03:40:11 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:41:08 You'd be amazed how little motivation publishing houses have to do anything beyond the bare minimum. You might try asking for more clearly itemized royalty reports, though. 03:43:36 I work as a literary agent sometimes, and we can usually badger publishing houses into providing a little more detail. 03:44:04 pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-66-126-12-250.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:41 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-66-126-12-250.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:44:47 girzel: Certainly my experience with Apress has been that badgering is pretty much always required. 03:44:53 For anything. 03:45:00 I was hoping it was just them. 03:45:21 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:46:03 Sadly, no. 03:46:19 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:46:29 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:49:35 lpolzer_ [n=sky@dslb-088-073-247-096.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:47 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 03:50:56 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.203.134] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 03:54:28 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-157.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 04:05:48 -!- lpolzer [n=sky@dslb-088-073-202-155.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:09:39 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:22:05 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp088.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:26:11 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-170.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:09 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 04:29:32 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:39 -!- v0|d [n=user@213.232.33.243] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:36:48 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:45:48 pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-66-126-12-250.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:05 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-66-126-12-250.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:48:27 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 04:50:18 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:05:11 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-170.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:09 *_3b* fails at ccl 05:06:54 <_3b> what does it mean when i keep getting errors involving #|symbol not found in home package!!|#asdf:: ? 05:07:55 <_3b> where the symbol after :: varies apparently randomly 05:10:25 Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.72.8] has joined #lisp 05:19:36 benny` [n=benny@i577A1939.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:20:18 -!- benny` is now known as benny 05:20:23 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@90.149.117.111] has joined #lisp 05:27:44 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 05:31:43 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1"] 05:32:21 sohail1 [n=sohail@69-165-148-98.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 05:44:36 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [No route to host] 05:49:10 -!- sohail1 [n=sohail@69-165-148-98.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [No route to host] 05:51:26 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 05:53:22 _3b, ccl is quite mature, why are you blaming it? looks like you have confused the reader. . . 05:53:47 <_3b> c|mell: i said i fail, not ccl :) 05:54:02 <_3b> i'm assuming i have something broken in my setup, i just have no idea what 05:54:24 *_3b* gave up and is just testing from command line instead of slime now 06:01:06 maybe you pushed slime into an empty package somehow 06:04:09 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@68.126.198.233] has joined #lisp 06:04:18 <_3b> dunno, i can delete all .lx64fsl under ~/, start emacs, run slime, (require 'asdf), ,restart-inferior-lisp and it breaks 06:07:14 *_3b* will probably have to try messing with slime config at some point when i have more time to debug it 06:08:57 -!- lpolzer_ is now known as lpolzer 06:09:08 good morning. 06:09:17 morning leslie =) 06:09:27 or night for me i suppose 06:09:41 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.221] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:09:42 morning 06:09:45 still hacking, eh? 06:10:07 yeah, when you aren't working with lisp, you often have to type for many more hours 06:10:15 <_3b> what does (declaim (ftype (sfunction ...) foo)) do in sbcl? 06:10:28 type? 06:10:39 working on docs or something? 06:10:49 yeah... i'm still messing with stuff in Cappuccino/Objective-J - it's verbose enough to where it mostly feels like typing 06:11:02 ah 06:11:20 well it's one reason for me to like lisp 06:11:24 of course, it would be nice if emacs had as many nifty libraries to do a lot of typing for me like it does for lisp... 06:11:36 I'm quickly annoyed at doing repetitive and verbose stuff 06:11:45 yeah, lisp is still my precious 06:11:55 perhaps they have a more suitable ide? 06:11:58 just didn't make sense for the latest project 06:11:59 well 06:12:03 textmate is probably what i should be using 06:12:08 but i'm just so used to Emacs for everything else 06:12:30 I see :) 06:12:32 it's slightly worse with objective-j, but i still like using anything, for example 06:12:50 how have you been? 06:13:47 <_3b> ah, nevermind, M-. worked on it this time 06:13:55 pretty good actually :) 06:14:17 low on money right now unfortunately because my customers are not very quick in negotiating their contracts... 06:14:22 but that will pass. 06:14:54 are you working on a commercial project in cappucino? 06:14:59 yeah, tis the way with contracting 06:15:11 well, trying to start a startup with another friend 06:15:20 with divia? 06:15:24 which is what i was doing with weblocks too until we realized the idea we had had little chance of making money 06:15:29 divia is still working on the old project 06:15:32 she's holding strong 06:15:50 there were three of us, two of us have ended up working on the new project, which is supposed to be a mockup tool 06:15:55 something like balsamiq, if you've used that 06:16:03 just a bit more prototyping that balsamiq is 06:16:19 yes, I've seen it 06:16:31 than* 06:16:36 cappucino seems to be a suitable choice for that kind of project 06:16:48 yeah, it was either that or flex really 06:16:51 or sproutcore 06:16:52 if you can manage to stay sane with objj that is :) 06:17:05 but i kind of hate flash stuff even more 06:17:20 heh yeah, it's taken getting used to, but it really is pretty cool from a shiny perspective 06:17:33 definitely 06:17:50 and my decision was made more by just it being a small community with some smart people running the project, which i like in a framework 06:18:37 I like that too 06:19:21 but yeah, money is a problem here too - might need to start contracting again soon 06:19:31 is there a big market for lisp programmers in germany (i think that's where you are)? 06:20:32 it's not larger than the one in the US I guess 06:20:57 Makoryu: why'd you part 06:20:57 no chance concentrating on one country only... 06:22:17 yeah fair enough... do you do most of your contracting for lisp work? there's definitely lisp jobs in the US, but i've rarely found any for contract work 06:23:39 f0sr [n=hsaliak@cm34.sigma72.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 06:23:50 one of the projects I'm working on right now is in CL (although the customer probably doesn't know or care) and the other is C stuff 06:24:07 one has to be lucky to live off lisp only :D 06:24:57 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-078.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 06:25:34 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:28:15 hi leslie -- how is thanandar going? the only lisp mmrpg? 06:28:59 running smoothly by now 06:29:11 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #lisp 06:29:12 so right now it's mainly about getting the stuff to paying customers 06:29:16 where is the do macro docmneted? 06:29:45 lowlycoder: clhs do 06:29:50 clhs do 06:29:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_do.htm 06:31:41 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.241.62] has joined #lisp 06:34:18 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-250.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:39:58 HG` [n=HG@85.8.89.117] has joined #lisp 06:40:53 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-170.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:51:40 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:53:38 -!- gonzojive [n=red@DN800cfb12.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 06:54:05 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:55:02 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:56 is it possible to change the base class of some class at runtime? 06:56:32 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 06:56:57 yes 06:57:59 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 06:58:17 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:02:34 lpolzer: ok, can you please share your wisdom and tell me how? :-) 07:02:58 I feared you'd ask that 07:03:03 okay, wait a second 07:03:49 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:05:54 mishoo: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_chg_cl.htm 07:06:07 oh, you mean of some class, not of some instance. 07:06:27 you want to call ENSURE-CLASS 07:06:42 sykopomp: exactly; I don't have an instance, but a class and need to change its superclass 07:06:42 it's part of the mop 07:07:06 mishoo: hold on, you may be mixing stuff up here. 07:07:10 mishoo: you want to change a class, correct? 07:07:14 yes 07:07:16 the argument lambda list is here: http://www.lisp.org/mop/dictionary.html#ensure-class-using-class 07:07:21 not the class' metaclass. 07:07:21 ensure-class is a bit like doing eval on defclass, which might be a bit easier to figure out the syntax for 07:07:39 s/metaclass/class metaobject class/ 07:07:58 mishoo: so what you want is say, take (defclass foo () ()) and turn it into (defclass foo (x) ())? 07:08:00 c|mell: I tend to stay away from EVAL but agree 07:08:19 lpolzer: defclass is sort of meant to be EVALd anyways :) 07:08:31 i think that if you are changing base classes at runtime eval is really the least of your problems :) 07:08:40 sykopomp: yes, that's what I want to do 07:08:44 sykopomp: yes, but not really at runtime, right? 07:08:45 okay 07:08:56 but I don't like the idea to run defclass again, because I'm changing a class defined in someone else's code 07:09:05 c|mell: I tend to disagree 07:09:06 um 07:09:25 mishoo: if that's the case, subclass that class, and add the new class as a mixin 07:09:55 so instead of doing (defclass foo (x) ()), do (defclass my-personal-class (foo x) ()) 07:10:10 of course that's no way to remove a superclass... 07:10:26 or if you want the class X to override behavior present in FOO, (defclass m-p-c (x foo) ()) 07:10:50 the thing is, instances of that class are also created in someone else's code :) so I would like to redefine *that* class (with the same name, that is) 07:11:42 *mishoo* thinks ..oO( probably it's stupid and I should look for other way to achieve what I'm trying to do ) 07:13:27 my problem, actually: I'm using cl-perec with postgresql for object persistence 07:13:38 cl-perec defines a persistent-slot-definition class, which is the base class for all persistent slots 07:13:55 I want to add a new slot to this class 07:14:00 mishoo: if you want to change the library itself, change the library itself. 07:14:37 I've been exhausting my brains reading about MOP lately; I know I could change all slot classes (there's at least 6 of them) 07:14:48 but that would be a lot of boilerplate code 07:14:50 hey mishoo according to the mop you can't do this dynamic stuff with slot-definition classes anyway as they are not normal standard-classes 07:15:05 you cannot redefine them and so on 07:15:25 oh, I see.. 07:15:29 mishoo: I don't know if what you're trying to do requires the mop. 07:15:32 there's some confusion here. 07:15:35 you will have to edit the source code of cl-perec to put in a mixin or something 07:16:02 c|mell: that would be easy, but I don't like the idea.. 07:16:13 mishoo: is it something generalizable? 07:16:26 sykopomp: erm, what do you mean? 07:17:01 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [] 07:17:27 mishoo: I wonder if it's something that you might want to send a patch over to the cl-perec people for. 07:17:39 can you be more specific about what change you want to make, and why? 07:18:36 sykopomp: want to add a :serializable (t or nil) option to slots, and depending on the value of this property, in a method defined for a base class I'll generate JSON for an object 07:19:33 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 07:20:00 mishoo: you know, you could subclass the metaclasses in your own library, and still reuse a bunch of the cl-perec code without patching it. 07:20:16 (that's -part- of the point of using OO in the first place) 07:20:45 sykopomp: yep, that's where I'm going. I subclassed persistent-class and using the new class as metaclass for persistent objects 07:20:56 mishoo, to follow the mop, you should go through the rigmarole of defining your own metaclass, allowing it to go with cl-perec's metaclass and standard-class, and then do the stuff to set the slot-definition classes 07:21:00 and now I'm trying to figure out how to add a new keyword to slots without redefining each one of them 07:21:25 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 07:21:34 c|mell, an excellent plan 07:21:35 well you have to inherit from each of the different kinds of slot definition class 07:21:56 ugly :-\ 07:22:01 *c|mell* 's opinion is that simply modifying cl-perec is the way to go 07:22:14 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:23:02 mishoo, how the hell is it ugly? it's completely the opposite of ugly and would extend to using manardb with json as well, if you wanted faster data access . . . 07:23:29 woo, manardb. 07:23:35 I want to play with it. Looks bloody awesome. 07:23:37 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-3-12.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:28 c|mell: I thought it's ugly because there are at least 6 slot definition classes in perec and I'd have to subclass all of them, and write direct-slot-definition-class and effective-slot-definition-class methods to decide which one to use.. seems a lot of code for such a small gain 07:25:20 tcr [n=tcr@138.246.7.146] has joined #lisp 07:25:36 that's why I thought that if I somehow manage to change only the superclass of persistent-slot-definition (base class of all slots) I'll get away with less boilerplate 07:25:40 sykopomp: manardb is cool indeed, but its current txn approach seems to be a bit inefficient 07:26:16 mishoo: if you want a hack I suggest you do some prototyping to see if you can get it to work 07:26:35 you just need to write the ensure-class (or eval'd defclass) form 07:26:58 lpolzer, that is completely against the mop, you cannot redef slot-definition classes 07:27:03 c|mell: where does the mop say that you can't modify slot definition classes at runtime? 07:27:18 I believe you're right but I'd like to read it without looking it up :) 07:27:49 http://clisp.cons.org/impnotes/mop-sd.html -- 07:27:50 29.4.3. Initialization of slot definition metaobjects 07:28:45 mishoo, why not make a base metaclass that does json, then make cl-perec's metaclass inherit from that 07:29:26 c|mell: thanks 07:29:27 or make a metaclass that inherits from both if you don't want to meddle with cl-perec 07:29:49 lpolzer, why do you think manardb is inefficient!? 07:30:10 c|mell: I didn't say that manardb was inefficient 07:30:31 c|mell: only its txn model -- it copies the whole db to isolate txns, right? 07:31:28 aha, yes it does if you want safe transactions -- i didn't understand txn :) 07:31:39 hjpark [n=user@116.40.135.2] has joined #lisp 07:31:39 :) 07:31:51 I can be a lazy typer... sometimes. 07:32:47 you can do your own locking if wanted to avoid isolated transactions i guess, or it could avoid copying classes which are not modified 07:33:26 -!- f0sr [n=hsaliak@cm34.sigma72.maxonline.com.sg] has quit ["leaving"] 07:33:30 or, on sbcl, you could use chanl instead of a silly repetitive transaction system to do your locking! \o/ 07:33:35 except it might explode 07:34:04 what's that? 07:34:26 c|mell: or csp. Basically, instead of dealing with locks and all that garbage, you use channels to synchronize your threads. 07:34:50 channels block, or they can buffer, and reading/writing from/to them requires no extra locking. 07:37:33 sykopomp: is this documented somewhere? or what source file needs to be consulted? 07:37:51 pretty good MOP information at clisp.cons.org; I wonder why it's so hard to find on common search engines.. 07:38:54 lpolzer: chanl? I'm just messing around with it. It's neither stable, nor done right now. 07:39:00 I was just shamelessly plugging it :P 07:39:17 http://github.com/sykopomp/chanl The source is ridiculously short. It'll probably stay that way even once MUX is written. 07:40:38 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-6-153.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:40:39 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 07:41:39 sykopomp: looks a bit like a mailbox queue 07:42:22 like nikodemus' work: http://git.boinkor.net/gitweb/sbcl.git?a=tree;f=contrib/sb-queue;h=37bdbbaf044c51995592d1e8c169c4476f0237bf;hb=HEAD 07:43:42 lpolzer: lock-free would be pretty great. Thanks for the link :) 07:45:21 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-170.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:45:28 redblue [i=star@ppp131.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 07:46:13 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-170.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:56 it's part of the sbcl distr. now actually .. just (require :sb-queue) 07:50:12 -!- HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:50:40 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:51:59 When exactly is an :around method on asdf:perform specializing on compile-op, and eql-specializing on (find-system :my-system) executed? 07:52:43 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:52:44 I thought I could bind a special variable there, then calling the next method, to have that variable be available while compile-file'ing the source files of my system 07:52:59 but that's not the behaviour I'm seeing, so I must be mistaken 07:53:39 Hmm CLX solves that by introducing clx-source-file 08:02:44 -!- HG` [n=HG@85.8.89.117] has quit [Client Quit] 08:05:54 majhool [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 08:21:45 milanj [n=milan@93.86.115.7] has joined #lisp 08:22:37 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:29:30 hmm, I got away very easily: perec uses defclass-star, which somehow allows me to use any keyword in slot declarations :) 08:29:42 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.225.233] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:29:45 I just have to push the keyword to defclass-star:*allowed-slot-definition-properties* to avoid a warning 08:34:45 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.225.233] has joined #lisp 08:35:51 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 08:42:45 timor1 [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:49:39 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-65-192.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:52:23 lispm [n=joswig@e177145248.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:53:50 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:54:18 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-225.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:54:32 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-131-27.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:56:31 mishoo, yes that is generally easier -- anardb avoids the mop by having its own defclass macro wrapping defclass* for example 08:57:41 you might want to think about making (defgeneric json (obj)) with a default that calls (json-slot-using-class ...) for each slot 09:04:14 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:04:48 ia_ [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 09:05:54 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:08:08 bruceb3 [n=user@136.187.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:16:22 kingless [n=user@adsl-144-140-128.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:25 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-90-140.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:17:09 *kingless* waves hello 09:17:48 heyhey 09:23:22 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.72.8] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:25:31 danlei [n=user@pD954F41A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:29:59 hey kingless 09:30:26 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:30:52 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:31:14 manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6B4AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:37 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-1-245.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:32:38 hey Adlai, short sleep (like me) or up all night? 09:32:48 kingless: the latter... 09:34:20 ejs [n=eugen@109-77-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:26 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:30 kingless: what timezone are you in? 09:36:52 US/Eastern 09:37:04 ahh. I'm in GMT+2 :) 09:37:15 the place to be! 09:37:57 the Continent. 09:38:20 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 09:42:37 -!- ejs [n=eugen@109-77-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:45:41 G'day! 09:45:48 hey, beachie! 09:47:36 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-149-41.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 09:48:16 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6CF13.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 09:52:27 girzel` [n=user@123.121.217.112] has joined #lisp 09:53:41 So what are your plans for today? Mine is to get named-readtables out the door. 09:53:54 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 09:53:56 -!- Guest25769 is now known as mqt 09:54:55 either move around furniture, or start with own blag software. I'm fed up with WordPress. 09:55:19 -!- mqt [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has left #lisp 09:55:44 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:14 Rather a CMS, actually. I have a pretty good idea of how I want it to work. I just need to get over the initial threshold of deciding on a web server/framework. 09:56:29 Sounds original 09:56:37 original? 09:56:51 tic: seaside maybe? 09:56:54 *schme* is amused. 09:57:10 schme, I'd prefer writing it in Lisp... 09:57:23 tic: My plan is to (re-)implement Y-banded rectangular regions with integer coordinates. 09:57:38 in Clim? 09:57:46 beach, what does Y-banded mean? limited in Y? 09:57:51 clipped, even. 09:58:31 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-90-140.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:59:19 tic: No, it's just a representation convention. An arbitrary region consisting of a union of rectangles is represented by a list of bands, where each band is a particular y interval [ymin,ymax] and each such band is a list of elementary rectangles [xmin,xmax]. 09:59:36 tcr: Related to CLIM, yes. 09:59:44 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-90-140.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:01:19 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@32.155.1.91] has joined #lisp 10:01:32 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:02:03 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:03:35 nha [n=prefect@188.61.70.17] has joined #lisp 10:04:43 beach, I see. 10:05:51 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp131.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 10:07:53 redblue [i=star@ppp054.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 10:08:12 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.239.234] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:09:55 Maybe UCW. Or Weblocks. Hard decision. The most important part is the webserver side, everything else will be either plugged-in or redirected to some other service in foreign land on the server. 10:11:15 tic: I suggest RANDOM 10:12:03 I don't know what choices I have! 10:12:48 Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.72.8] has joined #lisp 10:14:20 hey tic, use teepeedee2! it already has a blog built in to it 10:16:28 c|mell, aha? 10:16:48 it is my pet project, i will help you out if get stuck 10:17:33 I won't re-use the blog part, though. :) 10:17:50 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:17:51 -!- nvoorhies_ is now known as nvoorhies 10:19:46 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@32.159.222.192] has joined #lisp 10:19:46 The plan is to serve semi-static content from disk: ReStructuredText, plain-text, HTML or whatever format I have it in, which is then generated to HTML on-the-fly (cached). This so I can keep everything in a repository, plus the ease of mixing content (in contrast to the lack of proper PRE support in WordPress, for example). makes it easier to mix static documentation (= plain HTML) with dynamic (= e.g. ReST) journal entries. 10:20:08 I'll look at tpd2 though. 10:21:28 i keep the blog entries in a repository and you can put all sorts of HTML in them if you like (crippled kind of markdown) 10:23:28 I'm not very likely to mix different formats within a single post, though. 10:24:00 if you'd like to sort it out into a more sensible markdown format i'd love to merge it 10:24:07 I 10:24:37 It'll be a lot of ReStructuredText as that's what I already have for all my other posts on my existing site. 10:26:02 processing it is a one-off thing though, cached by md5sum, so I don't mind having to ask Python to do that for me. 10:26:26 how are your posts stored in a repos though? 10:29:13 i just put it in a git repo and push it to the server, tpd2 checks to see if any new posts have come in every five minutes 10:29:25 it's quite efficient 10:29:33 nice. 10:31:55 c|mell, does it support "pluggable apps" by handler, fairly separated? like a blog app mounted at /log, a photo app at /photos, etc? 10:32:20 yes, you can even have multiple blogs at the same time 10:32:34 it does vhosts out of the box too 10:35:21 ohh. 10:40:26 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.241.62] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:42:46 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.155.1.91] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:42:47 -!- nvoorhies_ is now known as nvoorhies 10:43:34 c|mell: what does "instant comments" mean? 10:44:12 Edward_ [i=Ed@81.249.128.32] has joined #lisp 10:44:18 "comments pop up immediately for everybody whenever anybody comments on an article" -- does this mean that if 5 ppl view the page at some point and someone writes a comment, do the other 4 instantly see the comment? 10:45:14 AJAXy? 10:45:20 AJAX can't do that 10:45:32 you need to poll 10:45:39 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 10:45:46 I know, that's why I was asking ;) thought there's something magic there 10:46:08 probably just false advertising 10:46:22 "instant (compared to manually refreshing)" 10:48:45 Ralith: iae, using a bit of flash you can get a persistent connection to the server, which would allow JS code to update instantly ;) 10:52:50 dv___ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 10:52:56 joswig [n=joswig@e177126094.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:52:58 but that's flash, which rapes your portability. 10:53:30 -!- dv___ is now known as dv_ 10:53:53 mishoo, yes it uses comet 10:54:01 i am fixing the bugs in it now :) 10:54:01 if "portability" means that some 4% of web users won't be able to see it, then you're right, it rapes it... 10:54:25 ah, nice. comet is a dirty hack, IMO, but it does the job for now... 10:54:55 *mishoo* doesn't understand why JS lacks such a simple concept as "socket" 10:55:00 Ralith, it uses ajax and not flash -- it is not false advertising but it is not working perfectly now; i will push a fixed version in a couple of hours (i hope) 10:56:23 c|mell: it is indeed false advertising. AJAX is inherently incapable of modifying a page in immediate response to actions by other clients. 10:56:40 mishoo: security issue. 10:57:01 do you really want a webpage to be able to coopt your connection to run a DDoS? 10:57:14 There's a proposed WebSockets standard. 10:57:25 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:57:55 Ralith: come on.. 10:58:06 mishoo: ? 10:58:10 paw` [n=paw`@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:58:16 Ralith: first off, as I said, Flash has it and it's omnipresent enough to create the possibility for DDoS 10:58:22 the thing is that it can be restricted in various ways 10:58:32 what do you mean ralith? it keeps a connexion open to the server, so the delay is just the network delay . . . 10:58:37 mishoo: just because flash does it doesn't mean it's desirable. 10:58:45 c|mell: er, no, AJAX is incapable of doing that. 10:58:55 it's very desirable, trust me.. 10:59:13 *Ralith* doesn't personally think of malware as desirable 10:59:40 Ralith: comet works by sending a request that the server doesn't immediately answer 10:59:56 the server keeps that socket open until it has something to say to the client, such as "incoming comment, show it!" 11:00:02 ooh. 11:00:03 clever. 11:00:07 (or until it times out, so a new request must be restarted) 11:00:11 my mistake, then. 11:00:13 -!- timor1 [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:00:14 clever, but horribly hard to implement on some platforms 11:00:30 I really wish we had full blown sockets 11:00:33 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:00:43 What does this have to do with lisp? 11:00:59 teepeedee2 is written in lisp . . . 11:01:15 paw`: and I think Lisp is one platform where implementing this isn't horribly complicated (thought I didn't try it) 11:01:18 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177145248.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:01:58 :-P 11:02:32 I would say "Nothing is complicated in LISP" but I probably would have to take that back 11:02:42 *paw`* is a lisp-newbie 11:02:54 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:02:54 paw`: me too :) 11:03:03 paw`: Things are a lot less complicated in Lisp than they are in LISP. 11:03:04 c|mell: haven't seen your blog on Planet Lisp, wonder why. 11:03:07 paw`: the correct spelling is «Lisp» 11:03:16 yeah Xach doesn't like me :) 11:03:20 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:03:46 LISP is the original "lisp" right? 11:04:03 Then ok, thanks for the info ^^ 11:04:24 I will get around to trying tpd2 after more Lisp calisthenics, I'm a newbie. 11:04:43 paw`: It is some unspecified dialect that hasn't existed for a few decades, so Common Lisp is excluded. 11:05:15 Yesterday I had some moment of amusement when I discovered that (NTH 1 list) =/= (FIRST LIST) 11:05:15 Oh 11:05:43 Well, I meant common lisp really. 11:05:45 I mean I knew that all along, but "1th" is first in the english language 11:06:04 1st 11:06:34 tcr: did you know that (nth n list) is not the same as (elt list n) . . . 11:06:34 You saw the double quotes, right? 11:08:22 c|mell: other than bound checking? 11:09:27 stassats`: the absence of bounds checking in NTH is an important detail 11:09:56 i didn't question that 11:10:12 besides that, i don't know of any difference :) 11:10:55 okay, stassats` for the next quiz question what is the maximum number of open parentheses a valid cl expression can start with? 11:11:57 i can think only of two 11:12:53 i think that is correct. . . anybody know better? 11:12:56 that is ((lambda ())) 11:13:08 (foo ((((((((((((bar)))))))))))))) 11:13:44 c|mell: your initial request was pretty bizarre: "i wrote something stupid, so please give me a bigger audience" 11:14:11 yeah i wanted to apologise for it 11:14:28 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.74.60] has joined #lisp 11:15:03 c|mell: by any chance is your nick a ref to Cordwainer Smith's sci-fi? 11:15:51 dktrudgett [n=david@C-61-69-182-172.syd.connect.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:16:18 good usage kingless, in many years nobody has caught the reference! :) 11:16:43 love those books. :) 11:17:17 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:17:34 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:19:13 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@32.159.136.0] has joined #lisp 11:19:22 -!- kingless [n=user@adsl-144-140-128.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit ["bye all"] 11:19:32 anyone here have experience using lispbuilder-sdl? I have a noob question... :-) 11:20:05 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:20:51 kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:03 nvoorhies__ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:11 dktrudgett: Just ask your question. You'll find out whether someone knows the answer. 11:21:17 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@68.126.198.233] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:23:25 dktrudgett: We have a lot of lispbuilders over in #lispgames 11:23:32 also hello, beach ! 11:23:52 is lispbuilding like bodybuilding? 11:24:22 pretty much. 11:24:33 You fire up SLIME, do 5 reps of 5 sets.. 11:25:17 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 11:25:39 today i'm gonna train pathname muscles 11:26:14 ouch 11:26:37 Trying out the sample code on http://code.google.com/p/lispbuilder/wiki/LispbuilderSDL and all similar code doesn't seem to work as advertised. The image only appears after an exposure event, but not because of the UPDATE-DISPLAY attached to VIDEO-EXPOSE-EVENT. Same happens with drawing rectangles on mouse events -- they only appear after an exposure event. e.g. minimise then maximise, or pass another wi 11:26:37 ndow over the client surface. Can't figure why it would do that... 11:27:18 thanks, I may also try #lispgames later... 11:27:45 dktrudgett: be sure to do so! It is a friendly channel 11:28:21 dktrudgett: perhaps you should call (gl:flush) or (sdl:update-display) or both? 11:29:06 http://code.google.com/p/lispbuilder/wiki/UsingLispbuilderSDL 11:29:20 yes, I have tried sdl:update-display immediately after the draw-surface call, and also in idle event and video-expose-event. no change. 11:29:31 And gl:flush? 11:30:06 is there a book about efficient lisp code? 11:30:11 gl:flush is a new one on me. I haven't tried it as yet. thanks for the idea. 11:30:28 madnificent: have a look at http://cliki.net/Performance, there are some links... 11:30:40 madnificent: But I don't know a whole monographic book. 11:30:51 madnificent: If you find one, add a link to it on that page, please. 11:31:00 and the book should be tied to a particular implementation 11:31:30 pjb: I haven't 11:31:33 thanks for the link 11:31:38 stassats`: indeed, it should 11:34:15 HET4 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 11:34:29 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-180-133-13.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:37:15 madnificent, doug hoyte's let over lambda has a few hints 11:38:15 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:38:27 milanj- [n=milan@212.200.223.7] has joined #lisp 11:41:24 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.159.222.192] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:41:24 -!- nvoorhies__ is now known as nvoorhies 11:42:10 -!- HET4 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:42:23 c|mell: thanks 11:42:47 -!- HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:43:21 (though it does generally carve out its own path in many idiosyncratic ways) 11:43:49 -!- majhool [n=mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:44:12 well i've pushed the tpd2 COMET fixes, hope that insta-comment will be working 11:45:12 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@32.159.136.0] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:46:28 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.115.7] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:47:15 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-177-53-117.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:47:24 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 11:47:38 c|mell: you're working on tpd2 again? 11:47:42 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Verlassend"] 11:55:51 -!- bruceb3 [n=user@136.187.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:58:22 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-078.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:58:40 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:59:05 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-078.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 12:02:00 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 12:02:28 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest79318 12:03:14 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@32.159.136.0] has joined #lisp 12:03:34 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@32.159.136.0] has quit [Client Quit] 12:04:28 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:04:58 whot .. vecto-as-a-widget; http://paste.lisp.org/display/87311 .. http://sw.nostdal.org/vecto-2 .. pretty dumb example; waay too huge image and certainly for an server on an adsl-line :) .. can have many of these vecto-widgets on the same page now anyway 12:05:29 (..resize the browser window to see it scale the label..) 12:09:21 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:12:48 -!- dktrudgett [n=david@C-61-69-182-172.syd.connect.net.au] has left #lisp 12:18:08 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:18:35 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:22:22 younder [n=jthing@251.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 12:23:02 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:20 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@81.249.128.32] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 12:28:45 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:29:51 hoeq [n=hoeq@213-65-76-219-no91.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 12:32:13 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32FC61.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:40 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 12:36:47 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:38:12 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:40:07 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:40:15 benny` [n=benny@i577A1939.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:40:18 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1939.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:41:35 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:41:55 ..maybe it looks better with the label centered 12:45:36 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.134] has joined #lisp 12:46:18 francogrex [n=user@45.237-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 12:46:43 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:47:26 Hey guys. What is a "boxed region"? When I write a function and make some single-float declarations the disassemble is alaways outputting this boxed_region thing! 12:51:35 francogrex, ia-32? 12:52:06 weirdo: are you asking if I have win32 as OS? if so yes I do 12:52:34 francogrex, use amd-64 because on ia-32 tagged floats don't fit into a general purpose register 12:52:50 either that or stick them into arrays 12:54:58 inlining should wokrs too ? 12:55:56 yeah 12:55:58 they are in arrays: please see if you can give me advice on this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/87312 12:56:21 the output is not very pretty as it stands right now 12:57:53 tau [n=haha@189.127.60.150] has joined #lisp 12:58:10 where is dalton ? 12:58:59 milanj: how to inline test3? 12:59:05 -!- benny` is now known as benny 12:59:22 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 12:59:28 :O 12:59:39 francogrex: I can hardly read your code with that there indentation :P 12:59:52 ok I know. I'll fix it 13:00:31 that could be easier expressed with LOOP 13:00:35 or ITER, for that matter 13:00:49 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-90-140.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:01:17 francogrex: is it not that there sum that is le boxed region thingie? that's not in no array? 13:01:18 here a little better: http://paste.lisp.org/display/87312#1 13:01:43 schme: oh, sum must be an array then 13:02:05 in an array 13:02:16 Well I have no idea. I only know what weirdo just told you. 13:02:22 but it seems plausible from that. 13:02:35 ok, maybe. let's try 13:07:46 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:07:47 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:08:14 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 13:08:40 no, at least as I reworked it, it's much worse : http://paste.lisp.org/display/87312#2 13:08:51 boxed fuckers are still there 13:09:36 francogrex: Any compiler notes? That should explain things. 13:09:55 ruepel0r [n=rue@77-22-58-33-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:10:04 -!- ruepel0r [n=rue@77-22-58-33-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:10:43 francogrex: Also, instead of returning sum (the float version), try returning (+ sum 0.0). Sometimes this makes a difference on cmucl. 13:11:01 rtoym: no, the compiler is silent surprisingly so 13:11:54 icecubic [n=icecube@p549C5B27.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:47 Odd. But since sum is a single-float and is being returned, it has to be boxed up if you're on a 32-bit lisp. 13:12:57 You can't avoid the boxing. 13:13:40 rtoym: ok (it's a short-float in this instance) 13:13:46 ...unless you can inline it at the call site 13:14:03 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:14:22 Are short-floats different from single-floats in sbcl? 13:15:06 rtoym: I don't think so, I mean even single-float give very simlimar output (i'll change to single) 13:15:16 Anyway, is there a problem with boxing up the result in that function? Is it provably the slowest part of the code or the source of all consing? 13:15:17 michaelw: how would you inline in this instance? 13:15:18 simple-array * should be simple array (*) 13:15:50 (declaim (inline test3)) 13:16:57 and dont know why you are using aref in one case and elt in second ... compile probably see this and optimize anyway 13:16:59 do you mean: (declare (type (simple array (*)) var)) is that? 13:17:19 (*) you primise only one dimension 13:17:30 *i think, i'm not so much into optimization issues 13:17:38 milanj: yes ok but I revereted to the first version 13:17:59 Yes. (*) means it's a one dimensional array, with unspecifed length. 13:18:28 ruepel0r [n=rue@77-22-58-33-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:18:37 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:18:53 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:19:35 but (SIMPLE ARRAY (*)) is an undefined type 13:19:50 simple-array type (*) 13:19:57 serichsen [n=svante@hmbg-4d06742e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:57 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1939.versanet.de] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1"] 13:20:01 hello 13:20:11 is simple array of type - type with one dimension undefined size 13:20:25 HG` [n=HG@xdslff152.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:22:53 milanj: not working: can you please write out the declaration line here 13:22:57 -!- hjpark [n=user@116.40.135.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:23:20 (declare (type (simple-array single-float (*)) var) 13:23:36 ) 13:25:41 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:25:52 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 13:26:34 ok; still, though it's syntactically correct now; the disassemble output is still ugly with boxed; despite inlining and changing the array type 13:26:51 -!- icecubic [n=icecube@p549C5B27.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:27:12 icecube [n=icecube@p549C5B27.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:27 Inlining doesn't change the function. Inlining only affects where it's called. 13:27:40 -!- icecube is now known as Guest28940 13:27:49 -!- Guest28940 is now known as icecubic 13:28:09 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442325.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:29:32 francogrex: The boxing is unavoidable, pretty much. But if you want to see the difference, (defun foo (x) (plusp (test3 x))). Then compile and disassemble foo. There should be no boxing anymore. 13:30:08 -!- milanj- [n=milan@212.200.223.7] has left #lisp 13:30:18 milanj [n=milan@212.200.223.7] has joined #lisp 13:30:46 shadow boxing! 13:30:51 necroforest [n=jarred@pool-173-79-168-92.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:16 mrSpec_ [n=Spec@chello089074179078.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 13:31:51 Newbie lisp question. I have a function foo that is of the form (foo &rest args). I have a list of args (1 2 3 4). How do I splice the list into the function call? 13:32:09 clhs apply 13:32:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 13:32:20 coliv [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:30 thanks 13:32:38 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:08 -!- francogrex [n=user@45.237-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:33:18 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-250.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:32 -!- serichsen [n=svante@hmbg-4d06742e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["change connection"] 13:39:55 Anybody finds numerical code written in cl looks ugly? 13:40:14 only if it's ugly-written 13:40:45 mfk [n=user@kpbisb.static.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 13:43:35 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-72-136.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:44:16 leo2007, i do :) 13:47:17 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:48:48 that is "heavy optimized numerical code", it can looks pretty ugly even written by cl wizard 13:49:31 -!- Pegazus [n=Pegazus@186.124.196.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:50:01 but you should imagine how will C/C++ code looks like with all the stuff you are doing in CL 13:50:11 heavily optimized numeric code is generally ugly :-) do you have an example where lisp is worse? 13:50:13 *stassats`* have never seen any beautiful "heavy optimized code" in any language 13:51:04 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:52:18 well, sure C numeric code with decent performance is not more worse then common C code 13:52:27 that is not case with CL 13:52:53 decent performance is indeed a struggle in Lisp :( 13:53:58 meh 13:55:11 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslff152.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:57:28 -!- Guest79318 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 13:58:47 milanj: yeah, because all C code is littered with gunk 13:59:11 :) 13:59:12 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-033-172.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:12 c|mell: define "decent" and "struggle", because at least one of them doesn't make sense 14:00:36 (unless you mean specifically numeric code, that is. the opinion police is watching!) 14:03:55 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:32 in case anyone is interested in getting a working compressed linux binary of their sbcl core: http://exepak.sourceforge.net/ 14:18:52 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:20:36 Pegazus [n=Pegazus@host108.190-137-30.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 14:21:42 with exepak I get a core size of 11M with a small bunch of libs loaded (uncompressed ~40M) 14:22:02 lpolzer: it seems like it dosn't say anything about sbcl specifically though 14:22:15 no 14:22:18 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.223.7] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:22:21 it just works ;) 14:22:31 as opposed to upx which does not 14:23:03 fair enough 14:23:20 Anyone looked at LibCL 14:23:21 ? 14:23:52 not yet, read about it on p.l.o 14:24:04 Do people care about compressed executables anymore? I mean 1 TB drives are cheap these days. 14:24:52 rtoym: there are still many places where people are stuck with dialup 14:24:59 rtoym: downloading can still be a bitch 14:25:15 Just americans and other backward peoples. 14:25:22 Don't you download compressed tarballs and not executables? 14:25:59 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.72.8] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:26:09 Zhivago: we (.be) have people that live with a cap of 1Gb... The absoutely lightest accounts are capped at 200Mb/month 14:26:22 rtoym: checkmate 14:26:44 How did you manage that? 14:27:15 last time I tried, gzipping a batteries-included sbcl core was still ~10MB, IIRC. not that the average OSX app is less, but just sayin' 14:27:27 If one is one of those mobile internet connections (with the usb-dongle that everyone has these days!) I can see download speed.. but yeah. tarballs compressed. 14:28:11 I would too if I was on 1Mbit :) 14:28:25 I wonder how hard would it be to make sbcl compile functions on first use. that'd shrink the core a great deal 14:28:50 my life is an endless struggle with disk space. 1TB drive is a pain to hook up to an ultraportable laptop 14:28:53 cmm: why on first use and not JIT? :) 14:29:09 michaelw: JIT is obviously harder? 14:29:15 You could even put back in the byte-code interpreter. 14:29:32 lukego: Hey! Long time no see. 14:29:40 cmm: first, remove the big compiler lock. 14:29:51 rtoym: howdy :-) still in NC? 14:29:52 pkhuong: oh :) 14:30:00 lukego: pfft, MBAir users... ;) 14:30:22 lukego: Yep. I gather you've moved from Sweden? 14:30:46 yeah I'm a refugee these days 14:30:52 still are /// ? 14:30:54 he's keeping to countries starting with "sw" 14:30:55 at 14:30:58 Ultraportable or 1 TB disk. Choose one. 14:31:05 hi cmm :) 14:31:13 hi there :) 14:31:15 -!- deech [n=user@24-107-144-116.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:31:16 well, there's 1TB SSD, I hear 14:31:43 lukego: swiss refugee camps must be very uncomfortable :D 14:31:56 lukego: Not really sure. :-) It was ///, then /// Mobile Platforms, and now maybe ST-Ericsson. All without moving a foot. 14:32:10 actually I magically have 5GB free at the moment and life is grand. I think my main use of disk space is buffering up "Remind me later" OSX system updates :) 14:32:19 fe[nl]ix: they constantly pester inmates to join G*****e 14:32:44 (bah, too many stars) 14:32:46 lukego: Where in Switerzland? I was in Geneva at the end of Apr. I would have visited had I known and you were close by. 14:33:17 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:33:17 I'm on jsnell's couch at the moment, in Zurich, working on a more permanent solution :) 14:33:40 Zurich's a bit far from Geneva. :-) 14:33:42 this is my second attempt to move to .ch. first time I was defeated by paperwork, this time I may yet be defeated by accommodation :-) 14:34:20 we took the train down to visit splittist a ways back, could have caught up with you too :) 14:34:38 rajbir [n=feynman@122.167.89.150] has joined #lisp 14:34:56 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:17 -!- younder [n=jthing@251.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 14:35:38 Bummer. Better luck next time. 14:36:06 ST-Ericsson huh. first I know of them, I'm so out of the telecom loop now. I like NXP ARM CPUs. 14:36:53 NXP not bankrupt yet? 14:37:20 Yeah, we switched from Swedish overlords to French overlords now. 14:37:35 you won't be fooled again! 14:38:15 at least not Japanese overlords 14:38:17 proun [n=proun@cpe-76-180-85-22.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:38:57 Actually, I think we're still Ericsson employees contracting back to ST-Ericsson. The legal stuff hasn't officially happened here. 14:42:53 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:43:11 isn't Pascal Constanza on here? 14:43:14 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 14:43:20 or used to be 14:43:20 nope 14:43:54 serichsen [n=svante@hmbg-4d06742e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:00 how/what do you know? 14:44:02 hello again 14:44:10 Lycurgus: never seen him here 14:44:17 yello serichsen 14:44:33 Lycurgus: he's a visible guy, we'd notice 14:44:38 hahaha 14:44:40 ah 14:44:48 .o(that is quite funny, since my nick highlighting is yellow) 14:44:53 Lycurgus: You maybe confusing #lisp and comp.lang.lisp? 14:44:55 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 14:44:57 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229180173.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:45:13 Yo beach. 14:45:18 hey gigamonkey 14:45:45 Did you go to ECLM? 14:45:48 beach, perhaps, though it's been years since I looked at any newgroup other than comp.fuzzy (or whatever its name actually is) 14:45:52 gigamonkey: yes, I did. 14:46:48 Lycurgus: Perhaps he will start coming here when he is on his month-long visit in Bordeaux, starting October 5th. 14:47:06 gigamonkey: Personal question if it's alright. Did any of the interviewees or their particular answers surprise you? Anything stand out? 14:47:23 beach, acknowledged. 14:47:54 redline6561: I'm not sure if that counts as personal. Try again. ;-) 14:48:01 But, no, not really. 14:48:10 Just checking. :) 14:48:17 I thought Knuth's dislike of code reuse was interesting. 14:48:48 Gah. Haven't gotten to Knuth yet. About to start Deutsch. 14:48:49 And I was surprised Ken Thompson had never heard of Worse is Better. 14:49:09 rly? 14:49:09 gigamonkey: What?!? That's hilarious. 14:49:49 Or he was lying. Or having a senior moment. Dunno. 14:49:54 Ken Thompson seemed like he had just woken up from a very long sleep :) 14:49:56 i know thats a big paper in the lips world, is it further than that? 14:50:03 "Huh, What's worse is better?" ... "Uh, how to explain this..." 14:50:05 gigamonkey: given his opinion on lisp (machines), I was not very surprised 14:50:18 redline6561: basically. 14:50:20 *newsgroup 14:50:42 *redline6561* rolling in laughter 14:51:13 beach: ECLM was fun? 14:51:56 gigamonkey: Sure, as usual! 14:52:12 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-170.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:52:37 Highlights? 14:52:39 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.218.80] has joined #lisp 14:52:48 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:54 LispWorks and Dan Weinreb 14:53:57 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:54:10 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:54:23 beach: I'm rather hoping the paper the MSI folks have on compiler optimizations gets posted publicly once it's translated. Curious what they found I guess. 14:55:59 -!- mrSpec_ [n=Spec@chello089074179078.chello.pl] has quit [] 14:56:12 -!- rajbir [n=feynman@122.167.89.150] has quit [Success] 14:56:20 mrSpec [n=Spec@chello089074179078.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 14:58:33 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:00:35 Nshag [n=shag@Mix-Orleans-106-2-145.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:01:01 benny [n=benny@87.122.25.57] has joined #lisp 15:05:06 merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:25 -!- merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:05:36 merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:19 -!- merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:06:39 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954F41A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:06:51 danlei [n=user@pD954F41A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:07 merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:53 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:17 -!- mfk [n=user@kpbisb.static.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:10:56 -!- merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:11:17 c|mell is an msi person, right? 15:11:36 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954F41A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:16:44 p0a [n=user@athedsl-382733.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:16:46 -!- girzel` [n=user@123.121.217.112] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:17:51 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:18:08 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-382733.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 15:19:14 Xach: right, illitirit's non-MSI identity ;) 15:19:39 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@68.126.198.233] has joined #lisp 15:20:05 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:20:15 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 15:22:27 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:26:07 danlei [n=user@pD954F41A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:33 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit ["Caught sigterm, terminating..."] 15:27:00 fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 15:27:27 rtoym: about the binary size I tend to agree but a user complained so I went to check whether there's a upx alternative that actually works with sbcl cores. 15:27:45 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-170.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:10 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.134] has quit ["so long.."] 15:28:23 lpolzer: When running, do you have to have some temp space to hold the uncompressed core? 15:28:25 -!- nha [n=prefect@188.61.70.17] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:29:31 IIRC /tmp has to provide enough 15:30:43 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:30:50 So if you run multiple instances, you multiply the amount of disk space you need? 15:30:56 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:31:47 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:36:38 Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.72.8] has joined #lisp 15:38:51 rickardg [n=user@c-077671d5.027-77-6c756e10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:39:08 nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 15:39:16 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:42:41 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@68.126.198.233] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:44:04 TDT [n=dthole@254.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:19 g'morning 15:53:40 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.208.29] has joined #lisp 15:53:44 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-170.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:01:16 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:01:31 rtoym: I suppose the uncompressed temporary gets deleted once the file has been loaded into memory 16:03:45 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C12A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:53 That's not so bad, then. Does this also include the C runtime so that you can't have shared runtime? Can't remember if the core in memory can be shared or not. Probably not. 16:04:05 ignas_ [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 16:05:50 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B1B7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:04 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:06:20 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 16:06:45 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:07:32 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:08:34 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.164.103] has joined #lisp 16:09:08 Iirc it can 16:09:34 I thought that's the standard excuse why the core size does not matter that much anyhow 16:11:13 I just thought the copying gc would make all the in-memory cores different pretty quickly. 16:11:38 Ah right 16:11:49 there was some such caveat 16:12:28 Maybe the read-only space can be shared. 16:12:32 sbcl doesn't usually collect the data that was in the image originally 16:12:48 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-14-38.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:13:13 so it's all there in the dynamic space, but in a special generation that only gets collected during image saving 16:13:28 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:14:15 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-24-238.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 16:14:40 -!- _3b` [i=foobar@70.112.214.100] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:15:00 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:15:09 <``Erik> iirc, sbcl has a special argument on the save-image-and-die to perform a last collect? 16:15:12 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:15:34 <``Erik> :purify maybe? *shrug* 16:18:41 not really 16:19:07 purify only works with cheneygc in any case... 16:19:11 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:19:23 :purify does nothing on x86 and x86-64, but if it were passed it'd basically make everything that survives uncollectable 16:19:25 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:23:03 -!- _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:23:58 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.164.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:24:06 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.164.103] has joined #lisp 16:25:35 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp054.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:27:33 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.164.103] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:28:15 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:30:17 -!- paw` [n=paw`@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has left #lisp 16:37:24 *Costanza 16:49:46 ruediger [n=ruediger@188.23.64.211] has joined #lisp 16:52:18 Bah, pretty much all implementations have bugs in their reader 16:53:36 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:05 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 17:01:38 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:01:57 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.164.103] has joined #lisp 17:05:22 ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.128] has joined #lisp 17:07:51 ASau`` [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 17:07:52 -!- raptelan [n=Casey@c-68-49-132-34.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 17:14:54 amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 17:18:18 ruediger_ [n=ruediger@91-115-27-248.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:21:04 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:37 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:21:41 tagac [n=user@88.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:22:17 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.128] has joined #lisp 17:23:26 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:23:26 -!- BrianRice-mb is now known as BrianRice 17:25:37 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit ["back to work"] 17:26:00 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188.23.64.211] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:26:11 -!- Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [] 17:26:24 -!- ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:26:26 Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:27:25 -!- Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Client Quit] 17:27:38 Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:27:52 -!- ASau`` [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:32:04 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:33:17 ASau` [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 17:37:19 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-208-120.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 17:37:31 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-212.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:37:35 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 17:39:28 -!- TDT [n=dthole@254.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has quit [] 17:40:31 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-72-136.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:43:41 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:46:48 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:47:11 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:51:30 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:52:17 milanj [n=milan@93.87.101.217] has joined #lisp 17:54:47 I've saw that with serveral comercial Lisp implementations one can create dll for windows, is there any free implementation which can do the same? 17:56:09 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 17:56:45 ecl perhaps 17:58:18 pkhuong: I guess you are right 17:58:30 (compile-file-pathname "/this/path/mylib" :type :dll) 17:58:41 -!- ruediger_ [n=ruediger@91-115-27-248.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:59:10 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:59:14 gonzojive [n=red@DN800cf60f.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:59:33 wol [n=wol@67.174.222.215] has joined #lisp 18:00:05 pkhuong: did you used ecl? what do you think of it? 18:00:31 _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:02:16 _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:02:22 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:02:26 I've never used ECL. I hear it's pretty good though. 18:03:56 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-13-253.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:13 htk_ [n=htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 18:07:15 I'm just read about it: it looks like it translates lisp to c and build native code 18:08:34 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:31 amaron: yes. 18:09:53 What's especially good, is that it's packaged as a libecl.so that you can link with any program. 18:10:23 So you can Embed Common Lisp (ECL) into your applications. 18:10:45 thats great 18:11:26 amaron, it has two modes, interpreter and compiler 18:11:32 the compiler compiles thru C 18:11:47 I needed to write a solver for excel called from dll, now I can do it in lisp 18:12:00 a solver? 18:12:02 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-90-140.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:12:39 compiled code probably goes much faster than interpreted code. 18:12:40 operations research solver, for mat. optimization 18:12:41 -!- ASau` [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:13:03 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 18:13:49 a multicriteria combinatory optimization 18:19:40 amaron: hope that spends most of its time in other libraries. 18:19:41 I seem to remember someone talking about excel + lisp. Some month ago or three. 18:21:05 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:21:28 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-3-12.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:21:29 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 18:22:21 I think this can be done, I'll let you know what I did. 18:22:44 Blaay [i=Blay@BSN-142-139-66.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:03 -!- kleppari_ is now known as kleppari 18:27:57 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:28:54 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:30:26 btw, is it OK if my xcvb-generated .asd files are implementation-specific? 18:30:56 -!- setheus_ [n=setheus@pool-173-74-124-37.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:31:17 if you're not shooting for usefulness, I would say that's ok. 18:31:17 this simplifies things tremendously as I then don't have to reimplement my own #+ aware pretty-printer 18:31:29 "not shooting for usefulness" ? 18:32:14 why are you generating .asd files? 18:32:28 XCVB has several extensions with no standardized ASDF equivalent. I could map them to ASDF, but then I'd have to extend ASDF 18:33:05 luis: because some people want to use XCVB-maintained projects with ASDF and/or have a way to move back to ASDF if they feel XCVB was not the right thing. 18:33:25 Also to provide a fast build that doesn't enforce dependencies 18:33:35 in cases where enforcing them is too expensive 18:33:42 (as is the case currently with QRes) 18:34:36 Well then, an .asd file that only works on a specific implementation doesn't seem very useful for, say, libraries. 18:34:38 extensions include: generated files, feature-dependent files (can do with #+ in ASDF) 18:35:13 luis: you'd either want to regenerate it every time, or edit it by hand. 18:35:34 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:35:39 i.e. if you're using ECL, generate the .asd for ECL and be done. 18:36:05 regenerating takes a few seconds at most (5 seconds on a 1300-file project) 18:37:09 I was thinking about redistribution. 18:37:46 then either you're using no extension whatsoever, and the generated results is fine. Or you're using extensions and you have to extend the result :-/ 18:37:47 Fare: I thought that xcvb would, among other things, also serve as a replacement for asdf. I expected there to be an .xcvb file for each project, which you could use to extract asdf information. 18:37:59 serichsen, indeed. 18:38:06 that's the goal, eventually. 18:38:17 serichsen: hi. :-) 18:38:23 hi luis :) 18:38:26 in the interim, I want to provide a smooth migration plan to/from ASDF. 18:38:36 luis: how was your presentation? 18:39:02 Fare: right. implementation-specific .asd files doesn't sound like a smooth migration plan. 18:39:30 what would be an example for implementation specific stuff in an .asd file? 18:39:33 serichsen: it was OK, thanks. 18:40:16 luis: well, currently there's the same issue with the asdf to xcvb converter: if you used no ASDF extension or trick, it works perfectly, otherwise you have to re-encode extensions by hand. 18:40:25 How many libraries use extensions, anyway? 18:40:43 I can name a few. 18:40:54 I have converted them manually already. 18:41:50 ah... no slime for ecl... :( 18:42:00 amaron: why not? 18:42:09 and they are originally using ASDF, so no back conversion needed. 18:42:31 (if you're speaking about CFFI, cl-unicode, etc.) 18:42:38 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:56 though I may have to reconvert the latest version at some point... 18:44:09 luis: it doesn't work, i've checked on google on several spots, they say it's not done yet 18:44:25 amaron: it worked last time I tried it. 18:44:27 the automated conversion does the easy but boring work. Getting it to also do the more clever work would be a lot of work for little results. 18:45:17 Fare: that's certainly an important factor. :) 18:45:18 in conclusion... don't throw out your .asd files right yet (but you weren't going to do it, were you?) 18:45:24 luis: Wrong number of arguments passed to function #. 18:45:36 File: #P"/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/slime/swank-ecl.lisp" (Position #10066) 18:46:04 amaron: did you install slime via apt-get? 18:46:07 also, though I support ECL model of compilation, I don't support ECL itself just yet. That's annoying. 18:46:14 but oh well. 18:47:07 luis: I think with pacman (I'm using archlinux) 18:47:57 amaron: I'm not familiar with archlinux, but I'd get SLIME from CVS anyway. (You can use clbuild.) 18:48:59 luis: thanks, I'll try that 18:50:38 also, what would you think of a patch to ASDF to support an ASDF_PATH shell variable to specify where to look for stuff? 18:51:10 can asdf-install update to the latest packages? 18:52:09 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-131-27.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:52:22 the latest that has been registered on cliki 18:53:23 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-151-200-238-90.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:41 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229180173.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 18:54:09 Fare: Not sure. What's the use case? 18:54:30 but it just gets the latest when it initially downloads? there's no get-latest function or anything right? 18:54:47 luis: being able to compile stuff from the command line without having to painfully write a setup file everytime. 18:55:13 Not sure what you're talking about. 18:55:28 lowering the setup costs in downloading and using Lisp software. 18:55:29 luis: thanks, now it works (got it from cvs) 18:55:47 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:55:55 currently, unless you are a lisp programmer, it's very hard to use a lisp program written by someone else. 18:56:14 amaron: cool, now in return you should get ECL to compile on Snow Leopard. :) 18:56:23 unlike say a perl script, where you can download it, use CPAN, etc., and it just works. 18:56:35 no mucking around with asd configuration. 18:57:09 Fare, shut up you have spines in your ass 18:57:23 tau? 18:57:27 Fare: not clear to me how ASDF_PATH would help. I'm missing some pieces of the puzzle. 18:57:37 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:40 i'm drunk 18:57:51 ShadowChild [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 18:57:57 danlei` [n=user@pD954F41A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:58 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:57:58 Fare, releve 18:58:04 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954F41A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:58:07 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 18:58:39 luis: either you'd be installing in a standard path (say /usr/share/common-lisp/source as in debian), or you'd have a ASDF_PATH in your environment and ASDF would look for systems there 18:58:45 luis: just to get one of those macs, btw. isnt the ccl good enough for mac? 18:59:22 *Fare* thinks about renaming XCVB_PATH into COMMON_LISP_PATH and sharing it with ASDF... 19:00:06 having ASDF_PATH would mean you could put something like ~/cl/ in it. 19:00:07 then when you download a lisp script and run it with cl-launch (or whatever), it would automatically find the installed dependencies. 19:00:18 koollman, yup 19:00:21 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:00:36 amaron: I use SBCL myself. 19:00:43 (which makes it a good idea) 19:00:49 then the question is whether or not to recurse in the declared directories. XCVB does. 19:01:23 ASDF doesn't, and instead you have to either use symlinks or painfully list all subdirectories. 19:01:48 Fare: now that you bring that up, it was indeed annoying that cl-launch would pick my init file and thus wouldn't find my ASDF systems. 19:02:12 you can instruct it to use init files. 19:02:22 Fare: it's not exactly painful. not for a variable that is declared in shell, anyway. But I suppose copying behavior may be a better idea. 19:02:34 s/would/wouldn't 19:02:34 but one of the ideas was to allow for things to be reproducible. 19:02:59 maybe I should revert the default. 19:03:28 since people with init files generally did it themselves so should be responsible for breakage. 19:03:42 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:04:24 is there a cl-launch repo yet? 19:04:33 luis: yes there's a git repo 19:04:36 under xcvb 19:04:51 patches welcome. 19:05:33 It would be nice to integrate cl-launch with clbuild. 19:05:42 So that I could build, then launch! :-) 19:05:49 yup 19:05:55 didn't boots try to do that? 19:06:11 git clone http://common-lisp.net/project/xcvb/git/cl-launch.git 19:06:30 -!- rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-166-217.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:06:35 antgreen` [n=user@bas2-toronto06-1176110806.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:06:46 http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=projects/xcvb/cl-launch.git 19:08:38 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:10:42 when is dalton ? 19:11:22 -!- Pegazus [n=Pegazus@host108.190-137-30.telecom.net.ar] has left #lisp 19:11:50 tau: talking about that? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB5isaB32QA 19:12:39 i am drunk 19:12:41 Fare, 19:12:44 beers 19:12:50 eu estou bebado 19:13:18 (I think I needed to ignore sysinit and userinit by default because debian used to have weird crap in there that would break non-clc-installed lisp) 19:13:20 tau: vai curar a bebedeira para outro lado. 19:13:43 Fare: yeah, I can see how that would be problematic. 19:13:44 (all the while making at least some of their clc-enabled lisps useless for cl-launch) 19:13:57 (and/or too old) 19:14:02 daniel` [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:25 I haven't tried recently, but I suspect the situation is not all that better. 19:14:58 luis, estou bebado demais para me levantar. 19:15:05 For XCVB, I had to painfully write a no-asdf.lisp that would cancel the previous ASDF (and CLC) from the implementation, so as to be able to use a more recent ASDF instead... 19:17:17 (for instance, cl-launch specifically detects and uses a non-clc ECL) 19:18:00 clc forces ECL to output crap at startup, which is incompatible with writing a lisp program where the output matters. 19:18:12 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954F41A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:18:39 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:22:02 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 19:22:05 -!- antgreen [n=user@bas2-toronto06-1177888317.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:22:31 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:28:13 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:48 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:30:23 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:33:38 ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-27-248.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:36:37 epichero [n=User@c-98-203-193-201.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:58 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:38:30 bunz [n=bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has joined #lisp 19:39:42 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.208.29] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:41:42 stipet [n=user@83.253.28.60] has joined #lisp 19:45:16 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-131-27.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:47:34 splittist [n=dmurray@ASt-Lambert-153-1-64-164.w83-204.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:47:37 morning 19:47:44 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:02 danlei [n=user@pD954F41A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:25 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 19:52:47 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-131-27.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:53:07 ls 19:53:25 *luis* curses OSX's lack of focus-follows-mouse 19:53:34 splittist: the .fr gives you out 19:55:19 chris2_ [n=chris@dslb-094-216-035-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:36 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-131-27.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:56:37 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954F41A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:58:55 danlei [n=user@pD954F41A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:10 sry 19:59:24 Freidenker [n=phdp@74-210-236-19.ri.cgocable.ca] has joined #lisp 20:00:36 luis: this is why you use linux :) 20:00:59 I was surprised to see that, according to the tiobe index, Lisp/Scheme has doubled in popularity since last year. Of course TIOBE is highly imperfect, but still... something special happened ? 20:01:02 cmm: what do you mean? 20:02:08 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-72-136.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:02:30 i got interested eariler this year, more for learning functional techniques, but i like clos now as well 20:02:42 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.72.8] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:02:54 splittist: that it's evening, which is also not bad 20:03:00 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-28.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 20:03:04 The Lisp winter is over 20:03:33 since when has lisp been "functional"? 20:03:44 ever 20:03:56 lisp is about the most imperative language in existence 20:04:10 eihrul: yawn. 20:04:14 it supports higher order functions, mapr reduce filter etc 20:04:24 even C can support those 20:04:28 that doesn't make it functional 20:04:38 since when lisp is non-functional? 20:04:41 C lacks closures 20:04:56 C has closures, through a few extensions already 20:04:57 cmm: Ah! Well 'morning' is my invariable greeting. I understand in #dylan it's always morning, which appeals to me. 20:05:02 extensions 20:05:06 right 20:05:21 i never thought the presence of closures or a few silly library ops for working on lists defined a functional language 20:05:23 didnt say it was, but its multi paradigm, so i didnt need to throw out my oo knowledge like with clojure 20:05:24 *schme* gets popcorn. 20:05:43 eihrul: do enlighten us with your definition of "functional language". 20:06:06 *albino* gets a corndog 20:06:08 eihrul: what is a 'functional language' and what would that mean in combination 'supports, but does not enforce, functional programming' 20:06:31 generally invariance 20:06:41 -!- Freidenker [n=phdp@74-210-236-19.ri.cgocable.ca] has left #lisp 20:06:44 invariance? 20:07:02 as in, bye-bye setf and friends 20:07:17 so you think that SML is not a functional language? 20:07:20 Any Parisian #lispers? (who have nothing else to do on a Saturday night than hang out on irc...) 20:07:45 -!- gonzojive [n=red@DN800cf60f.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 20:07:57 SML is not a functional language, it is a joke :P 20:08:04 OCAML? 20:08:05 splittist: you want to hang on irc only with Parisians? 20:08:10 ML? 20:08:15 OCAML is not, but it is tolerable 20:08:27 i looked at haskell for a hot minute 20:08:31 *mishoo* gets a beer 20:08:59 it is like these languages are ashamed of being imperative 20:09:09 so they try to hide it, but they do it poorly 20:09:26 *cmm* is too bored to care 20:09:29 being imperative is a good thing :P 20:09:34 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-033-172.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:09:47 you are boring. it's a bad thing 20:09:53 yes 20:09:55 How many times / month does this rant come up in #lisp ? 20:10:01 I seem to remember it. 20:10:18 stop calling lisp functional and the rant will stop coming up :) 20:10:26 im learning opengl, now that seems imperative to me. all state-machine turn on, turn off 20:10:33 stassats: heh. No, I'm in Paris this week (not unusual), and thought I should ask if anyone wants to meet In Real Life. 20:10:50 eihrul: Who called it functional? It's just a language. If you want to do functional things with it.. go ahead. 20:10:56 eihrul: If you don't. go ahead and don't. 20:11:18 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 20:11:47 i don't :) 20:11:58 eihrul: looking back here it seems no one called it a functional language, and you just started up. 20:11:59 *mishoo* thinks ..oO( then don't :) ) 20:12:10 proun did :P 20:12:19 eihrul: nope 20:13:03 i said the word "functional", i said lisp was multi-paradigm 20:13:23 proun: seems to me that lisp is quite usable for learning functional style of programming (: 20:14:32 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:14:49 my issue is now learning all the data structures and how to set/get things in em 20:15:22 yum 20:15:35 proun: pretty much you can just use SETF (: 20:15:54 for setting I mean. 20:16:04 well, sure once you find the slot :) 20:16:14 elt, arev, svref, etc 20:16:19 proun: it's easy: something like (setf (gethash 'foo (gethash 'bar h)) 10) is like h.bar.foo = 10 in python ;) 20:16:50 *mishoo* honestly hates this... but fortunately it's easy to "fix" 20:16:58 i have a little cheat sheet 20:17:20 do people use alists/plists a lot? 20:17:21 proun: I think.. there are not so many data structures in CL really. You have your hashes, your arrays etc... there can't be that many. (: 20:18:23 strings, vectors 20:18:23 proun: i use them often 20:18:25 slots 20:18:27 property lists 20:18:29 proun, do you know the CL quick reference 20:18:34 ? 20:18:49 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6B4AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 20:18:56 http://clqr.berlios.de/ 20:19:11 can be nicely printed 20:19:22 joswig: yes, but i kinda have made my own - writing them out helps me remember better :) 20:19:28 proun: what you *should* be concentrating on is learning all the FORMAT madness. That's more useful than anything else ;) 20:19:29 phf [n=user@c-98-231-211-226.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:03 ive gone through pcl and acl, now im trying to actually write some stuff 20:20:19 rares [n=rares@130.13.166.217] has joined #lisp 20:20:48 (: 20:21:54 unfortunately im moe interested in graphics, so i'm converting all these c opengl examples for now 20:21:59 proun: I hardly remember anything. half the time I use TAB at the SLIME repl to see what pops up that might be of use. or APROPOS I guess. 20:22:12 (: cl-opengl thne! 20:22:14 then too 20:22:26 proun: Also there is okra 20:22:43 is that a opengl binding? 20:23:09 oh i see, for ogre 20:23:17 yup 20:23:26 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 20:26:13 -!- stipet [n=user@83.253.28.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:27:08 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:27:12 -!- chris2_ is now known as chris2 20:32:00 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-19-214.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:36:48 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@ASt-Lambert-153-1-64-164.w83-204.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 20:38:04 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-14-38.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:38:14 -!- wol [n=wol@67.174.222.215] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:39:29 -!- bunz [n=bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has quit ["bye"] 20:42:20 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:43:04 mfk [n=user@kpbisb.static.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 20:44:31 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 20:45:05 -!- xan_ [n=xan@62.78.225.40] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:45:26 v0|d [n=user@213.232.33.243] has joined #lisp 20:46:26 etoxam [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 20:48:34 saikat_ [n=saikat@76.228.82.245] has joined #lisp 20:49:47 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-27-248.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:50:21 ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-27-248.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:54:30 -!- etoxam [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:55:22 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:57:13 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-146.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:58:06 guille_ [n=user@168.Red-81-33-184.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:27 hello 21:00:38 etoxam [n=etoxam@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 21:00:58 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@76.228.82.245] has quit [] 21:01:30 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:58 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:05:11 hello 21:06:19 schmeee 21:07:44 -!- ShadowChild is now known as lukjad007 21:10:27 -!- etoxam [n=etoxam@84.79.67.254] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:10:27 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-90-140.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:10:31 tiiiic! 21:12:22 yarr! 21:12:31 What up thar? 21:12:37 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-131-27.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:12:47 just back home, sleepy time soon. you? 21:13:34 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:13:42 err, ye? 21:14:51 planning to eat some fuud! 21:15:47 I wrote some lisp just yesterday. Feeling happy about it. 21:17:11 schme: what did your lisp do? 21:17:31 it printed #\Bel at specific intervals! 21:17:42 for my workout! 21:17:52 real life usage of a computer! go figure! 21:18:00 schme: haha. oh, yes. i remember. good. 21:18:02 woha 21:18:19 schme: i've been enjoying ahefner's mixalot for sound dabblings of late. 21:18:24 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:18:40 schme: that and external-program to invoke ogg123. 21:18:50 yeee. I was under the impression it demanded ALSA 21:18:59 but now it seems ALSA is everywhere 21:19:15 schme: yes, i recall you mentioning that yesterday. ALSA is around most places in my experience. what OS are you running? 21:19:20 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:21 netbsd 21:19:30 guille_` [n=user@168.Red-81-33-184.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:31 but #\Bel really worked amazingly well. 21:19:44 We were snatching like crazy here with it going #\Bel #\Bel #\Bel 21:19:46 schme: aha. I thought you might be in the running for the world's barest arch linux install. :) 21:19:57 nah.. that's my desktop. 21:19:57 schme: Most excellent. 21:20:00 this was for the laptop 21:20:14 yea! 21:20:16 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:20:26 I'm planning on becoming the most well built lisper in the world! 21:20:34 (guess it will not be too hard) 21:20:35 -!- tau [n=haha@189.127.60.150] has quit ["Saindo"] 21:20:57 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:21:08 and all thanks to this #\Bel 21:21:09 schme: haha. yes but that likely has more to do than the rarity of lispers than the rarity of built people. it's the intersection that helps you. 21:21:27 Yeah. I should make one of those charts I see somuch of. 21:21:39 with the two circles and intersection. And people will laugh and all. 21:21:53 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 21:22:12 indeed. and you'll have since used to /dev/linein to ensure that laugh is followed by #\Bel. 21:22:19 hehehehe 21:22:43 I have been off writing code for like almost 2 months or somesuch. Was nice to get *somethnig* done :) 21:23:11 No kidding. I'm more familiar with that feeling than I'd like to be. 21:23:25 tic: I even used vim to write it all! 21:23:26 I don't really have any excuse. School doesn't take TOO much of my time. 21:23:38 that's easy. quit school. 21:24:00 schme, nice! how did that feel? 21:24:06 schme: HAHAHA. Did that already. Worked for a year and did SICP. Ended up going back to finish the degree. 21:24:21 tic: To be honest it was complete shit. It was a "bare" vim install that didn't indent stuff properly :) 21:24:42 (eql 'bare-vim-lisping *ouch*) 21:25:17 => T 21:25:26 schme, oh, bleh 21:26:46 tic: Note I said 'bare-vim-lisping. I thought Xach or somebody posted or blogged about a good VIM extension for CL lately. 21:27:02 redline6561, there are a few. 21:27:32 (eql 'vim *ouch*) => T 21:28:12 stassats: Hey, some people go for that. 21:28:37 chris2_ [n=chris@dslb-094-216-036-234.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:16 younder [n=jthing@84.202.13.251] has joined #lisp 21:34:35 pawel [n=pawel@188.33.101.237] has joined #lisp 21:36:28 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-035-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:36:38 -!- guille_ [n=user@168.Red-81-33-184.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:36:40 -!- chris2_ is now known as chris2 21:37:26 alexey [n=user@79.120.46.158] has joined #lisp 21:37:50 phf` [n=user@c-98-231-211-226.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:40 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C12A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:48:52 good night 21:48:55 -!- serichsen [n=svante@hmbg-4d06742e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:49:12 Dodek [n=dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has joined #lisp 21:49:42 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:49:53 hey, with whom should i speak to make lisppaste bot visit my channel? i sent an email to the address given on the website, but received no answer. 21:50:53 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:51:55 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:53:05 -!- phf [n=user@c-98-231-211-226.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:54:33 -!- pawel [n=pawel@188.33.101.237] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:55:05 pawel [n=pawel@188.33.101.237] has joined #lisp 21:56:04 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:57:44 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-078.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:58:04 pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-129-200.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:35 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-129-200.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:00:21 Dodek: talk to chandler 22:00:50 fe[nl]ix: thanks. 22:02:20 hi. anyone from poland ? 22:02:30 pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-129-200.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:12 quite a few, see ##lisp-pl 22:03:18 pawel: there's chanel, #lisp-pl 22:03:31 thanks 22:04:22 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:06:19 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:06:36 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-129-200.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:06:57 -!- alexey [n=user@79.120.46.158] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:07:15 -!- rickardg [n=user@c-077671d5.027-77-6c756e10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:07:17 -!- nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:09:08 -!- pawel [n=pawel@188.33.101.237] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:10:42 -!- mfk [n=user@kpbisb.static.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:14:33 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:16:52 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 22:18:48 -!- icecubic [n=icecube@p549C5B27.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:19:04 <_3b> how do i ask CCL for a filename suitable for passing to foreign functions? 22:19:52 <``Erik> #P syntax isn't suitable? 22:19:56 <_3b> (namestring (truename ...)) is my current attempt, but it adds a \ before extra . in the filename 22:20:07 <_3b> ``Erik: i want a string i can pass outside of lisp 22:20:48 *``Erik* is a newb, would've assumed athat a proper #p would coerce well to a string 22:21:23 That \ is just an escape character in the printed representation of a lisp string. It's not in the string 22:21:43 (namestring (truename ...)) should be what you need for the foreign function 22:21:48 <_3b> billstclair: the \ it escapes is in the string :) 22:22:04 <_3b> (namestring #P"foo.bar.baz") -> "foo\\.bar.baz" 22:22:15 <``Erik> the C side will see \ as escape 22:22:17 -!- guille_` [n=user@168.Red-81-33-184.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 22:22:18 <``Erik> even on winderz 22:22:42 <``Erik> "C:\\file.ext" ... 22:23:48 <_3b> no, that is the same as the \\ in the lisp string 22:24:27 <``Erik> (on the C side, "path\\dir" is permitted, but ... wrong... "path/dir" is better) 22:24:32 <``Erik> er, path/file ... whatever 22:24:35 <_3b> the low level functions see a single \ and get confused (or treat it as a path separator in windows) 22:24:58 <``Erik> windows C/c++ even sees "path/file" correctly... is that the issue? 22:25:00 I see that now that I've tried it in my lisp 22:25:04 Don't know why it's there 22:25:04 <_3b> right, "path\\dir" is a string with 1 #\\ character 22:25:19 <_3b> which doesn't work when the filename doesn't have any #\\ characters 22:25:44 ``Erik: for that matter, the windows UI sees :/path/to/foo fine too 22:25:52 -!- daniel` [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:26:12 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-146.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:26:31 <``Erik> ralith: shut up and go commit, you've brlcad work to do :D *duck* 22:26:50 :x 22:27:02 I also have univ to acclimate to! 22:27:04 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:13 <``Erik> :) 22:28:12 (cffi-sys:native-namestring #p"foo.bar.baz") => "foo.bar.baz" 22:28:30 <_3b> ah, that sounds good, i'll try that 22:29:36 <_3b> yep, seems to work 22:29:42 <_3b> (isn't portability fun? :) 22:29:46 <``Erik> #P format ftw 22:30:07 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-146.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:31:06 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:33:06 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 22:41:49 is there a reason why some predicates are named foo-p vs. foop ? 22:42:48 <_3b> minion: namimg conventions 22:42:49 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 22:43:04 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 22:43:14 <_3b> bah, http://www.cliki.net/naming%20con 22:43:23 <_3b> bah, http://www.cliki.net/naming%20conventions 22:43:41 thanks 22:44:49 -!- r0bby is now known as r0bby|arr 22:45:35 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-28.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:47:42 proun: because defstruct is stupid. 22:48:45 after re-reading the cliki paragraph im beginning to think im stupid :/ 22:49:03 seems kinda odd 22:50:13 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 22:50:59 -!- Blaay [i=Blay@BSN-142-139-66.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [] 22:51:03 rtoym: ping 23:07:38 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:13:44 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.208.29] has joined #lisp 23:17:05 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:24:07 -!- phf` [n=user@c-98-231-211-226.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:28:10 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-72-136.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:29:45 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-27-248.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:30:54 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["*bork bork*"] 23:31:35 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:35:56 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:26 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:43 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:25 it's ironic how defstruct gives you everything and defclass takes it all away 23:44:30 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:47:43 -!- joswig [n=joswig@e177126094.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 23:49:16 rares: ? 23:49:38 sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:40 oh you mean predicats and make- eh? 23:51:43 rares: do you know about defclass*? 23:54:05 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 23:54:19 kingless [n=user@adsl-144-140-128.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:45 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442325.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 23:55:57 is one lisp better than the others as far as debugging messages go? 23:56:05 rares: keep in mind that DEFSTRUCT's tendency to make up new symbols is generally a poor idea.