00:02:46 Makoryu [n=vt920@31-34-139.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 00:03:12 -!- kenpp [n=kenpp@84.92.70.37] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:05:26 johnb [i=1e5aaca7@skye.upbeat.no] has joined #lisp 00:12:43 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 00:15:06 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 00:17:15 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Verlassend"] 00:22:46 lsk2 [n=lsk2_4@122.116.5.215] has joined #lisp 00:22:53 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442325.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:27:07 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:27:18 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:19 ,eval 00:45:22 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:45:43 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:16 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@77.221.181.252] has left #lisp 00:46:45 -!- jevw [n=jvanwink@75.138.213.210] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:49:33 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@24.136.230.181] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:50:40 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@31-34-139.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has quit ["Absquatulandus sum"] 00:54:39 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:54:46 slackjaw [n=jolyonwh@cb8faac9.atp.nicta.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:56:18 Makoryu [n=vt920@31-34-139.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 00:56:52 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D9B2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:00:36 Hi , how can i create a in memoery binary stream 01:01:19 -!- segv [n=mb@207-172-92-9.c3-0.129-ubr3.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 01:01:39 <_3b> minion: tell pepone about flexi-streams 01:01:40 pepone: direct your attention towards flexi-streams: FLEXI-STREAMS is a library which implements "virtual" bivalent streams that can be layered atop real binary/bivalent streams. http://www.cliki.net/flexi-streams 01:01:42 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-hffrnjpphgzkqofp] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:02:19 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Client Quit] 01:08:11 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:13:52 coliv [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:38 BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:17 gonzojive [n=red@DN800cf60e.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 01:16:20 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:29 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:19:56 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:20:15 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:20:23 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:23 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:02 jte [n=jensteic@p548EFDD2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:41 rtoym [n=chatzill@24.136.230.181] has joined #lisp 01:23:19 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 01:26:33 -!- pepone [n=pepone@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:26:58 pepone [n=pepone@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 01:27:56 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:32:41 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:36 -!- hefner [n=hefner@58.9.115.14] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:35:12 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 01:37:06 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@90.149.117.111] has joined #lisp 01:44:03 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-109-45.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 01:45:57 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@31-34-139.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:47:06 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:46 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:50:52 -!- pepone [n=pepone@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:56:43 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:03:08 I have a macro: (defmacro spawn (&body body) `(bt:make-thread (lambda () ,@body))). Doing (spawn (foo)) on CCL gives me a warning about MAKE-THREAD being undefined. what the hell? 02:03:13 I've tried force-compiling both files. 02:03:41 blackwolf [n=blackwol@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:48 <_3b> did you load the file that defines make-thread? 02:03:59 it's imported from bordeaux-threads. 02:04:53 <_3b> you are sure it has been loaded? 02:05:13 <_3b> though i guess it would probably complain about the package if not 02:05:43 I've manually done compile-file on it, tried C-c C-k, C-c C-c on the specific definition of a function that uses spawn, etc. 02:06:26 <_3b> FUU is defined? 02:06:30 <_3b> *FOO 02:06:52 I'm not using foo, but it's not complaining about the function that -is- there. 02:07:30 <_3b> right, just wondering if it was maybe putting the warning in the wrong place or something 02:07:35 ah, there we go. Sometimes all you need is to get rid of all imaginable fasls :) 02:07:42 <_3b> that might help too :) 02:11:09 sykopomp: wouldn't it be better to make a separate function that was passed in the lambda, to which the macro called, instead of requiring the package wherein make-thread lies to be used? 02:11:52 eihrul: I think the actual problem here was a stale fasl thing. 02:12:05 but even from a design standpoint 02:12:20 well, the symbol is imported. 02:12:25 and beyond that, the API would be exactly the same. 02:12:27 hence, a macro. 02:12:46 all the macro really does is turn (make-thread (lambda () ...)) into (spawn ...) 02:12:54 which is what macros are for. 02:13:18 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:13:29 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:50 sykopomp: that's more of a sign that lambdas are too syntactically heavy in CL. It'd be a regular function in, e.g., smalltalk, haskell or ML. 02:16:49 well, sometimes 02:16:58 (bt:make-thread #'func) is not so bad 02:17:17 I think the make-thread combined with the lambda is the biggest issue, tbh :) 02:21:10 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 02:22:08 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:22:28 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:22:52 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:56 qbg [n=chatzill@x-146-57-84-115.mrs.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 02:33:25 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:36:45 legumbre_ [n=user@190.135.39.229] has joined #lisp 02:36:51 -!- davazp [n=user@79.153.148.56] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:37:01 sohail [n=sohail@69-165-148-98.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 02:41:18 -!- seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:43:20 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 02:43:35 -!- tic_ [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:45:42 rread_ [n=irchon@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:09 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 02:47:23 -!- rread_ [n=irchon@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:50:43 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-vippgjnivicdyswx] has joined #lisp 02:51:15 joshee [n=joshe@198.145.64.114] has joined #lisp 02:51:22 *Ralith* agrees with sykopomp 02:51:37 -!- joshee [n=joshe@198.145.64.114] has left #lisp 02:53:59 josheee [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 02:54:23 -!- josheee [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has left #lisp 02:54:24 josheeee [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 02:54:35 josheeeee [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 02:54:42 -!- josheeee [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has left #lisp 02:54:43 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-30-156.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:54:56 lat__ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 02:54:59 -!- josheeeee [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has left #lisp 02:57:13 I'm a fan of sharp-l 02:58:55 nono, #l is for lazy eval 02:58:55 -!- arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:58:56 :) 03:00:15 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 03:03:28 let's have arnesi and whatever you're referring to (clazy?) battle it out 03:03:29 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.163.214.130] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:04:00 how else are we supposed to allocate the modicum of letters left us by ANSI? 03:05:57 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:06:25 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:06:31 gigamonkey [n=user@99.169.81.234] has joined #lisp 03:06:34 Word. 03:06:58 Just call it 'clay' 03:07:53 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 03:08:09 Coliveira [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:43 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:08:51 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:10:56 segv [n=mb@207.172.92.9] has joined #lisp 03:12:12 sohail [n=sohail@69-165-148-98.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:13:36 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.96.47] has joined #lisp 03:14:55 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:15:14 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:10 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 03:18:26 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Verlassend"] 03:19:33 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 03:20:08 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 03:22:23 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:25:51 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:28:26 -!- lat__ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:29:37 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:01 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@KD124213182069.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:33:01 -!- emma [n=620e9a47@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-rjhnyxtipvburgxo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:37:42 I would use #N for "normal order" 03:38:12 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:38:55 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:39:13 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:40:31 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:41:36 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:42:18 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 03:43:54 seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:47 dysinger [n=dysinger@c-24-18-234-48.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:05 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.141.228.137] has joined #lisp 03:59:32 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:59:42 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:14 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.96.47] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:04:13 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.141.228.137] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:05:54 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04:38:59 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:39:17 -!- lu6cifer [n=s140822@pool-68-238-221-119.phil.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 04:41:37 minion: logs 04:41:37 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 04:42:58 Wow, it really has been that quiet. 04:43:14 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:43:59 heh 04:45:51 -!- qbg [n=chatzill@x-146-57-84-115.mrs.umn.edu] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"] 04:46:41 das_null [n=Owner@71.92.98.86] has joined #lisp 04:47:48 wgl: herep 04:48:51 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:49:16 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:50:02 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.163.214.130] has joined #lisp 04:50:35 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-149-10.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 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has joined #lisp 05:11:01 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.163.214.130] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:11:02 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:11:51 Modius_ [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #lisp 05:12:01 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:19 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:13:33 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:15:02 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:15:54 ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:57 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@99.169.81.234] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:16:37 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:16:59 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:03 -!- peddie_ [n=peddie@c-67-170-201-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 05:17:07 peddie [n=peddie@c-67-170-201-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:24 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 05:18:31 emma [n=620e9a47@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-ysaudzmjgyvljtyq] has joined #lisp 05:19:09 Hey how are you. You are using your old nick. 05:19:57 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:22:35 minion: logs 05:22:35 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 05:23:04 emma: who are you talking to? 05:23:07 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 05:24:04 It's been <> in here for hours. (Unless you're talking to me.) 05:24:23 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 05:25:04 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-1-29.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 05:25:20 -!- phax [n=psc@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [] 05:25:55 i'm using my old nick... but then i don't have a new nick/ 05:25:58 . 05:26:55 hey drewc. 05:28:30 hello drewc, gigamonkey. 05:29:09 -!- Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:29:17 well, there are invisible people here. to me, anyway 05:29:51 emma: Are you a human being? 05:29:58 Everyone must be worn out from ECLM? 05:31:41 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 05:32:45 warinthepocket [n=wipt@74-32-239-39.dr01.jrdn.mn.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 05:33:13 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:33:47 From the pictures, it looks like the ECLM was at a great location. I should have tried harder to prepare and submit a talk. 05:34:26 -!- das_null [n=Owner@71.92.98.86] has left #lisp 05:35:21 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit ["off"] 05:39:49 Well, hate to leave this scintillating conversation, but it's my bedtime. Goodnight. 05:40:19 you're missing out on the good stuff 05:40:27 party starts in 5 minutes! 05:41:40 Now they tell me! 05:43:37 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-1-99.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:44 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:43:59 -!- warinthepocket is now known as warinthepocket_ 05:44:23 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:45:47 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:45:48 kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:11 KingNatoG5__ [n=patrik@84-217-1-237.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:01 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-214-80.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 05:49:31 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 05:49:37 -!- KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-1-99.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 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joined #lisp 06:05:13 Good morning everyone! 06:05:19 morning 06:09:17 -!- Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:11:29 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-6-163.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:13:40 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:15:10 morning 06:15:25 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:15:38 morning trebor_dki, plage, nikodemus, phax 06:17:51 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 06:18:03 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:18:07 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-214-80.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 06:19:15 fxr [n=user@213.232.33.243] has joined #lisp 06:19:38 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-078.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 06:23:21 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 06:24:47 aquagnu 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[n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:28:57 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:29:06 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 07:29:13 HG` [n=HG@xdslee010.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:29:13 good morning 07:29:41 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:30:53 hello kami- 07:31:38 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@81-174-51-212.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 07:32:05 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:32:05 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:23 rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 07:35:13 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:36:48 wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-176-196.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 07:37:08 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:39:07 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:39:26 angerman_ [n=angerman@e226.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 07:41:04 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:42:25 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:43:24 -!- kwertii [n=kwertii@67.180.202.175] has quit ["bye"] 07:44:21 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:45:03 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:45:55 -!- angerman [n=angerman@a072.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:45:55 -!- angerman_ is now known as angerman 07:48:19 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:54:40 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has left #lisp 07:55:29 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:11 good morning, attila_lendvai 08:06:48 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 08:06:55 attila_lendvai: I saw your post on cl-dwim. I would like to switch, now. 08:07:01 attila_lendvai: any objections :) 08:07:29 kami-: hi 08:07:43 attila_lendvai: the app is not yet live. I have only created a small fraction of the UI. 08:07:47 i have no objections, but keep in mind that the metagui part of wui is not there yet 08:08:22 attila_lendvai: oh! 08:08:43 -!- angerman [n=angerman@e226.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 08:09:09 well, things are working, but not as much as used to 08:09:26 attila_lendvai: I can inspect the server, sessions etc. 08:09:38 -!- slackjaw [n=jolyonwh@cb8faac9.atp.nicta.com.au] has quit ["Computer goes to sleep!"] 08:11:30 attila_lendvai: wui? 08:13:41 attila_lendvai: I'll give it a short try. 08:13:45 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.218.80] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:13:53 kami-: link to this? 08:14:01 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 08:14:05 minion: tell Ralith about wui 08:14:06 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``wui''. 08:14:16 minion: tell Ralith about cl-dwim 08:14:16 Ralith: have a look at cl-dwim: cl-dwim is something like what people call an application server when it comes in other languages. http://www.cliki.net/cl-dwim 08:14:43 Ralith: the new home is at http://dwim.hu/ 08:14:45 kk 08:14:46 -!- emma [n=620e9a47@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-ysaudzmjgyvljtyq] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:15:49 Ralith: it's another web server, but not without a reason... and the dwim.hu site is pre-alpha 08:15:50 sparse website is sparse 08:16:06 got any real homepage? 08:16:19 not yet, dwim.hu will be the one 08:16:38 kk 08:16:42 cool 08:16:51 *Ralith* grabs some much needed sleep 08:17:04 attila_lendvai: I would like to install the HEADs of the projects. Would it be possible to post a notice to the cl-dwim ML when you update them in your code base? 08:18:18 kami-: http://dwim.hu/darcs/ is the head 08:19:54 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-13-232.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:20:42 hi 08:21:10 how would you call the http entry point for the live codebase? currently it's /live/ which is not too descriptive... 08:21:54 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 08:22:16 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:16 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:22:27 -!- nvoorhies_ is now known as nvoorhies 08:23:01 hi levy 08:23:34 kami-, hello 08:24:37 attila_lendvai: I would call it /code/ or /src/ (and allow also /code and /src without trailing slashes) 08:25:04 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:25:18 kami-, that's not good, because there is another list of repos, the head repos 08:25:36 and the most important property of those links is that they represent the live system 08:26:10 the point in the live system is that you don't have to fight with the newest bugs from the head repos 08:27:15 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:21 levy: then, the 'live' system is in fact the 'current stable release' of dwim (for some values of stable ;) 08:28:16 levy, attila_lendvai: I would then call it /release/ and provide a file with the release-number in that dir 08:28:26 kami-, yes, you are almost right, except we can't tag repos which our not ours 08:29:03 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:15 levy: but the ones below /live/ are yours, right? 08:29:41 kami-: not all 08:29:58 levy: oh, I see a CVS in anaphora. OK. 08:30:01 they are all the repos we need to run the site, some of them are not ours 08:30:08 kami-, all repos are there which are needed for that server 08:30:16 eh 08:30:28 attila_lendvai: I would do what I have done with your repos :) 08:30:42 attila_lendvai: we use mercurial, here. 08:31:21 attila_lendvai: I have created an hg repos, which contains all projects (CVS, svn, darc, git HEADs) 08:31:27 Hazelesque [n=hazel@143.210.72.222] has joined #lisp 08:31:42 kami-, are you saying that you convert the darcs repos to mercurial one by one? 08:31:54 attila_lendvai: where I of course ignore all control files of the other SCM systems 08:32:15 attila_lendvai: I then do a pullall 08:32:48 check for obvious problems, and if all goes well, I commit all changes at once to the /mercurial/ repo 08:34:08 this has the advantage that a pullall leads to one identifiable changeset in hg 08:34:38 and if needed, I still have (in one staging area) access to the more fine grained changes in the different SCM systems 08:34:58 e.g. to unpull a patch, if necessary 08:35:59 I can also manage patches to your code base in mercurial queues (which is an extremely nice tool) 08:36:13 kami-, interesting 08:36:27 this is e.g. what I have done with the German translations 08:36:45 kami-: and isn't it that it's about a hundred times faster than darcs? ;-) 08:37:46 mishoo: I cannot comment on darcs because of too little experience. attila_lendvai and levy made me use it during the past year 08:38:06 mishoo: but, I only do a darcs pull from time to time. 08:38:26 mishoo, we don't have performance issues with the newest darcs release 08:38:34 mishoo: darcs2 especially with an ssh master connection is quite fast, i doubt a 100 times mutliplier... 08:39:02 I was exaggerating, of course, but hg seems lightning to me compared to anything else.. 08:39:20 attila_lendvai / levy : more questions for you guys on perec-devel, when you've got the time ;-) 08:39:33 *mishoo* bows to the brilliance of cl-perec 08:39:36 levy: I'm quite proficient in using SCMs 'on top' of others, because we have many customers who keep their code in svn or (even still in) CVS 08:39:51 a-s [n=user@91.201.80.240] has joined #lisp 08:39:57 -!- FufieToo is now known as Fufie 08:40:24 with whom we exchange code. The workflow I described is quite easy and can even be automated to some extent. 08:41:26 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229181229.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:41:54 levy: back on topic. Just before you came, I told attila_lendvai that I would like to switch to the new code base after I checked the current dwim.hu site 08:42:01 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:42:42 levy: I've written a minimal part of the UI, so it wouldn't hurt too much 08:43:00 kami-, some meta gui parts are not yet ported to the new code base 08:43:11 levy: which parts? 08:43:38 filter and maker for compound types for example 08:43:52 *attila_lendvai* writes a quick answer on perec-devel 08:44:18 the inspectors are mostly done 08:44:33 I'm planning to put up the current component test suite on dwim.hu 08:44:50 so that you can test them in action, see how the code looks like and even inspect their internal state 08:45:06 actually this is quite easy, so I might do this after having breakfast 08:45:36 levy: how much work are the filter and maker for the compound types? 08:46:01 -!- tau is now known as Dirac 08:47:20 kami-, not easy to tell, but not much, mostly renaming to conform to the new naming convention, extend the tests, fight with asdf load order, etc. 08:47:40 the problem is that I also work on a 100 different things at the same time 08:48:51 -!- Dirac is now known as tau 08:48:53 levy: I'll give it a try. Do you have a new 'environment' project? 08:50:14 perec-devel mail sent, with some questions skipped 08:50:47 mishoo: it's not a bad idea to send each question in a separate thread next time... 08:51:29 attila_lendvai: ok, will do 08:51:31 kami-, yes we have one called hu.dwim.environment 08:51:39 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 08:51:48 actually all of our repos were migrated to that server and got renamed 08:52:29 levy: where is verrazano used? 08:52:46 *kami-* wanted to ask that several times, but forgot 08:53:55 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:40 kami-: hrm, it has some runtime code the generated mappings use 08:55:07 although it should pretty much be dropped 08:55:39 right now it's two vtable lookups, which will never work anyway... it should emit cffi-grovel files instead 08:58:04 hi 09:00:07 angerman [n=angerman@c136.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 09:00:46 attila_lendvai: and contextl also from dwim.hu? 09:01:11 attila_lendvai: my current one is from common-lisp.net 09:02:08 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:10 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 09:02:10 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 09:02:18 rpg [n=rpg@dhcp-91-035.inf.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:02:52 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:03:25 -!- angerman [n=angerman@c136.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [Client Quit] 09:04:04 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 09:04:53 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:05:11 -!- futuranon [n=futurano@67-207-144-254.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit ["leaving"] 09:05:27 futuranon [n=futurano@67-207-144-254.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 09:05:53 levy_ [n=levy@apn-94-44-0-84.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:06:11 attila_lendvai / levy_ : thanks for your helpful answers 09:06:33 btw, is there a problem if I'm using t and nil instead of #t and #f? 09:06:58 mishoo, no there just reader macros that capture our intention better 09:08:37 kami-, no you can use the official contextl project 09:08:39 kingless [n=user@adsl-144-140-128.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 09:08:45 kami-, we have to fix that on dwim.hu 09:09:37 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:10:34 attila_lendvai: thanks. 09:11:08 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:10 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 09:13:00 attila_lendvai: what is your version of darcs? 09:14:18 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@89.180.191.26] has joined #lisp 09:14:19 -!- Kenjin is now known as Guest89110 09:16:20 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:39 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-109-45.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:16:56 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:18:13 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:18:17 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:31 2.3 release 09:23:01 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-13-232.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:25:07 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 09:25:41 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:26:51 -!- kingless is now known as kingless_ 09:28:07 I'm looking for a better way to iterate along 2 or 3 axes. I've turned two or three nested loops into a macro and called them 'with-xy' and 'with-xyz' or 'with-2d' / 'with-3d' (I'm not really happy with the names yet but that beside my current point), but I'm not sure if I've missed a better way to do this in CL. 09:28:25 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 09:28:55 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6FC0E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:29:14 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 09:30:52 manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6C520.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:55 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 09:34:12 aerique pasted "Iterating in three dimensions" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87219 09:35:04 what would you do with 10d? write ten nested loops? 09:36:07 stassats`: I'm afraid so :-) but I'm really only concerned with max three dimensions. 09:37:21 and you can't RETURN from that construction, because block NIL will be eaten by the innermost LOOP 09:37:41 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6C520.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:37:43 manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6C520.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:56 aerique: how about making a construct for parametrised rotation 09:37:57 though, you can change `named' keyword to give loop's block a different name 09:38:19 s/change/use/ 09:38:33 and supply it closures each going rotation along one axis 09:38:41 not sure if it's worth it in your case though 09:41:17 varjag: way over my head :) 09:43:12 -!- gonzojive [n=red@DN800cf60e.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 09:43:22 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-190-81.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 09:43:33 splittist [n=dmurray@62-150.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 09:43:38 re 09:44:01 splittist: hey man 09:44:27 aerique: how was the drive back? 09:45:00 splittist: lots of work on the roads so pretty annoying. 09:45:21 varjag annotated #87219 "maybe like this" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87219#1 09:45:38 just a syntax that'd be imho nice to arrive at :) 09:45:40 stassats: There's always return-from. 09:45:49 splittist: i also accidentally pressed a button on the hired car that made it beep everytime i went over 100km/h and i didn't figure it out until i was almost home :) 09:46:35 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6C520.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 09:47:13 varjag: looks interesting 09:47:20 -!- plops [n=user@pD9E68DCD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:47:26 I'd prefer to think in terms of a mapping from a one dimensional space to the N dimensional space and then to iterate of that, ala row-major-aref. 09:47:37 and the axis you don't initialize will have no rotation 09:50:16 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6FC0E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:54:16 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:56:00 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 09:58:44 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:00:43 angerman [n=angerman@d058.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 10:01:28 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 10:02:50 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:02:55 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:03:23 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:06:01 -!- lsk2 [n=lsk2_4@122.116.5.215] has quit [""] 10:06:50 *Xach* feels the excitement bristling in the air 10:09:17 a brush of sarcasm? 10:09:36 No way! 10:10:58 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:11 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:11:23 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 10:13:43 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:13:57 -!- rpg [n=rpg@dhcp-91-035.inf.ed.ac.uk] has quit [] 10:14:47 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:15:30 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:15:53 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:16:50 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:18:14 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:18:27 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:19:24 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@81-174-51-212.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [] 10:19:38 Xach: I'm amazed how that Broken Vow video could stay under the radar for so long, it's pretty amazing. Definitely a very modest member of the CL community :) 10:20:13 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.128.223.209] has joined #lisp 10:20:57 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C520.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:18 lat__ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 10:21:22 aerique: we've been working on local-time for 1+year until someone pointed out that there's a ylocal-time based on the same Naggum paper... that's just how it is in the lisp community. 10:21:42 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has quit [] 10:23:06 attila_lendvai: haha, yeah. i had been working for days on a function for a boolean operation on polygons and then Xach pointed out cl-geometry to me. 1+year is definitely worse though 10:23:38 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:25:23 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 10:27:23 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:27:51 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:28:55 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:32:04 vy [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has joined #lisp 10:35:25 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:35:44 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483AB1F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:24 hmm, might have been someone else...i haven't seen cl-geometry 10:38:03 but there's a lot of stuff out there that people work on and they aren't part of the #lisp club or the planet lisp blog club or the sbcl mailing list club, etc 10:38:21 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 10:38:50 You'd think Googling would help but I've missed a lot of stuff. Perhaps I'm getting old. 10:39:03 -!- tau [n=Erdos@189.127.60.166] has quit ["Saindo"] 10:39:04 it's hard to google for some of this stuff 10:39:33 http://wcp.sdf-eu.org/software/ for example is pretty cool stuff 10:40:49 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-190-81.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:41:12 *Xach* has never seen walter on irc, a mailing list, or anywhere 10:44:16 Xach: that's a lot of software he's written 10:44:43 -!- kingless_ [n=user@adsl-144-140-128.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:45:45 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:46:08 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:46:09 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:48:21 I think cobstor is my favourite. 10:51:18 -!- aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:51:36 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:55:12 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:56:16 -!- gko [n=gko@211.22.47.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:56:20 anyone know of a code dependency generator? something within SLIME or a Lisp IDE that takes generates a dependency graph for the files in a project based on which file consumes forms defined in another? 10:57:02 my asdf-fu is weak and my project grew too large to fully keep it all in mind. the first asdf load fails, but works on a second attempt. 10:57:09 50 files so far 10:57:43 minion: asdf-dependency-grovel 10:57:44 asdf-dependency-grovel: asdf-dependency-grovel makes it possible to generate components with dependencies from serial asdf system definitions. http://www.cliki.net/asdf-dependency-grovel 10:58:25 heh 10:58:29 thanks fe[nl]ix 10:58:31 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:00:07 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.219.235] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 11:00:45 didn't know asdf was a "platform" all on its own now, http://www.cliki.net/ASDF-Extension :-) 11:01:32 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-vippgjnivicdyswx] has left #lisp 11:01:59 It skipped straight past the framework stage 11:04:19 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:04:30 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:34 girzel [n=user@123.121.228.41] has joined #lisp 11:05:03 -!- fxr [n=user@213.232.33.243] has left #lisp 11:09:42 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-axgscbbcqowiixxx] has joined #lisp 11:12:06 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:48 also, is there some kind of library for generation GUIDs? currently i am using md5(frob(session-id, user-id, timestamp, random-key, salt)) 11:14:55 prxq [n=mommer@92.226.141.1] has joined #lisp 11:15:04 hi 11:15:41 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:15:45 http://www.webdav.org/specs/draft-leach-uuids-guids-01.txt 11:15:58 minion: uuid 11:15:58 uuid: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/uuid 11:16:15 If i forget the :after (or whatever) when writing an initialize-instance method, the built-in one disappears. How can I recover it? 11:17:12 prxq: pop up the slime inspector on #'initialize-instance and remove that method 11:17:56 prxq: the programmatic way to do that is REMOVE-METHOD 11:18:27 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 11:18:33 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:51 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 11:18:54 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest7502 11:19:19 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 11:20:00 pkhuong: found this as well http://people.csail.mit.edu/gregs/info-dylan-archive-html-2001/msg00796.html 11:21:21 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 11:23:42 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 11:23:47 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@89.218.74.92] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:23:49 Levenson1 [n=Levenson@92.46.94.233] has joined #lisp 11:24:14 -!- Levenson1 [n=Levenson@92.46.94.233] has quit [Client Quit] 11:29:51 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 11:34:26 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-axgscbbcqowiixxx] has left #lisp 11:34:43 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:13 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:41:05 fusss, fe[nl]ix: thanks! 11:42:41 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@24.136.230.181] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:43:26 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-101-112.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:43:34 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 11:44:24 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:44:43 wow, spam has come a long way since 1998. i am looking at my old inbox and found this gem "promiscuous girls awaiting you tonight". 11:45:12 ah, they could still spell back then 11:45:33 it has come a long way because now it's in chinese and you can't even read it? 11:48:11 -!- Guest7502 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 11:51:57 I wonder if spammers are conspiring to make young people subliterate so that it's harder to filter spam out ... 11:55:24 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:55:38 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:57:56 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.94.233] has joined #lisp 11:58:51 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-184-135.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:00:23 spam is easy to filter out, just use greylisting 12:01:46 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:01:59 -!- lat__ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:02:50 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:47 lat__ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 12:07:23 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:08:48 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:16 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:15:18 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:34 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 12:20:05 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.218.80] has joined #lisp 12:20:58 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:21:12 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:21:13 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:23:07 weirdo: I still get ~20-35 spam mails a day despite of greylisting 12:23:56 tcr, here's a trick 12:24:03 you know SMTP protocol, right? 12:24:15 proper way is to send "MAIL FROM:" 12:24:22 but spam bots send "MAIL FROM: " 12:24:25 see the difference? 12:24:43 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:24:46 that is a great secret! i'm glad spam bots won't figure that out. 12:25:04 Xach, i published that on exim-users list a few years ago and they didn't figure it out yet 12:25:13 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:25 auclairb [n=auclairb@modemcable171.174-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 12:25:42 *Xach* will make thousands by selling spambot patches 12:26:00 :) 12:26:45 coderdad_ [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:03 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@modemcable171.174-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 12:27:10 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181150041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:27:56 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442325.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 12:29:01 ls 12:29:37 . 12:29:38 .. 12:29:39 weirdo: there are broken legit smtp servers everywhere 12:29:42 LiamH [n=healy@129-2-175-69.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:29:55 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-10-216.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:30:55 fusss, what's i do is only greylist something if it looks like a spam bot 12:31:04 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:31:12 either a few DNSBL lists that are really reliable and give no false positives 12:31:19 (as if there was such a thing) 12:31:27 or just pay for google apps and let the big G deal with spam 12:31:30 or checking EHLO hostname, what i said, etc 12:31:43 fusss: did anyone tell you about file-write-date? 12:31:51 yeah, and "index" my private data 12:32:05 No Xach 12:32:12 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:32:15 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:32:30 how is this discussion related to lisp? Lets write spambot in Lisp :) 12:32:31 file-write-date is a standard function for getting a file timestamp 12:32:41 *fusss* has accidently typed something in chatzilla that makes the screen mirror 12:34:38 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.94.233] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:35:44 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.94.233] has joined #lisp 12:36:03 http://i26.tinypic.com/30961ja.jpg wtf? 12:36:09 brb 12:36:10 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"] 12:36:38 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:37:00 i must have triggered a weird RTL rendering thing in mozilla 12:38:17 Xach: that is just news to me 12:38:47 I have scanned the Files section of the hyperspec before sicking APROPOS at a few terms, like "FILE-", "TIME" and "TIMESTAMP" 12:39:13 knowing is ½ the battle 12:40:50 gigamonkey [n=user@99.39.6.163] has joined #lisp 12:42:30 sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:35 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:45:34 I am gonna kill Zhivago for this; he is the one who nudged me towards a database solution. I thought the guy knew CL inside and out, hmmm. 12:45:46 -!- coderdad_ [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:47:31 That hasn't been my impression. 12:48:09 -!- rsynnott_ is now known as rsynnott 12:49:12 fusss: did someone paste some arabic or hebrew text somewhere? That can occasionally confuse browsers and knock them into RTL for everything 12:49:31 rsynnott: i type arabic, it's an installed language as well 12:49:56 rsynnott: pjb typed some hebrew yesterday 12:49:57 but none of the programs i use, including chatzilla go into funhouse-mirror mode because of it 12:50:01 fusss: You appear to have a convenient memory. 12:50:02 kosher, IIRC 12:50:15 fusss: I suggest that you re-read what I did say. 12:50:31 Zhivago: you said "that is the best option", IIRC 12:50:59 fe[nl]ix: kosher ==  :-) 12:51:15 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 12:51:35 *fusss* apologizes if a few chatzillas went apeshit because of that rtl 12:51:47 fusss: When you said "I'll put everything in a database", I agreed that that would solve your problem in a well defined way. 12:52:30 fusss: Where-as relying on an unknown filesystem's timestamping idiosyncracies won't -- witness what happens to timestamps over SMB over NFS, etc. 12:52:39 fusss: Don't blame me for your stupidity. :) 12:52:54 Zhivago: hey, easy, i mean no harm 12:53:26 i know i am stupid, but i prefer to be corrected, not encouraged ;-) 12:53:54 Pretty much the only valid solution to your stated problem is the approach you suggested there. 12:54:06 It may be that your problem is wrong, but that's another issue. 12:54:08 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:54:26 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:55:02 Well, embedding timestamps into the files would also solve it, I guess. 12:55:18 Zhivago: alright, sorry 12:59:47 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:11 what was the problem in question? 13:02:24 01:17 what is the most portable way to get file timestamps? 13:02:38 file-write-date is a very portable way to get file timestamps. 13:02:48 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:04:06 ah 13:05:13 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 13:05:29 Xach: i think all of us where confused by the unix dual-timestamps, last access time && last update time 13:06:20 fusss: note that last access time may not be accurate 13:06:25 atime can be disabled at filesystem level, btw 13:06:34 which is a good practice on overloaded machines 13:06:40 fusss, and there's also ctime 13:06:49 fun times 13:07:07 atime is _often_ disabled, in fact 13:07:30 and I'm pretty sure some filesystems either don't update it at all or update it only when they feel like it 13:07:38 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-108.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:08:04 rdd [n=user@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:10:43 http://plus7.arte.tv/fr/1697660,CmC=2848364.html 13:10:47 oups 13:11:59 l_a_m: marxist! ;-) 13:12:17 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:33 fusss: :) 13:12:50 alright, nite all! 13:12:51 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"] 13:16:50 there are plenty of marxists here 13:16:54 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:16 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:20:57 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:21:24 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 13:26:36 in slime when using "eval in frame" are the local variables created using let/let* not accessible ? 13:27:03 I am trying to use (break) to get into a scope and want to examine the variables 13:27:03 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142177079117.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:27:45 Dawgmatix_: you might need to compile with a high debug level for that to work 13:27:49 Dawgmatix_: what implementation are you using? 13:27:54 sbcl 13:28:12 Dawgmatix_: you can recompile an individual function with high debug, without changing the source, by using C-u C-c C-c 13:28:17 Dawgmatix_: that will provide you with more debug info 13:28:24 thanks xach :) 13:28:28 sohail [n=sohail@69.165.148.98] has joined #lisp 13:28:30 Xach: nice. Didn't know that. 13:28:32 Dawgmatix_, depends on the debug level of your code 13:29:01 C-u C-c C-c -- awesome 13:29:41 Coliveira__ [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has joined #lisp 13:29:48 gigamonkey: i added it over a year ago, i think, but i don't think enough people know about it. i use it quite a bit when i'm stuck on a problem. 13:29:49 yeah, press what fare said while on a frame in sldb 13:29:53 then use the retry restart 13:30:00 -!- Coliveira [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:30:03 usually to get to the exact form of an error 13:30:24 well it still doesnt work :( 13:30:29 but for me sbcl shows lexical values even with low debug, even though it doesn't show actual names 13:30:57 Dawgmatix_, remove optimization declarations, min/max values for OPTIMIZE params, etc. 13:31:28 am not using anything fancy - havent set any optimization flags 13:31:52 weirdo, don't you need to already have compiled in high debug to be able to use restart? 13:32:17 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit ["Leaving..."] 13:33:25 Fare, when an expression errors out when typed from the REPL, the RETRY restart is present 13:33:36 it won't be present if he's erring out from a different thread, etc. 13:33:47 Dawgmatix_, http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/904/sbcl.png 13:34:29 http://paste.lisp.org/+1VB1 13:35:00 pasted what I am doing there, when the thing breaks - I try to use "e" to eval in the frame 13:35:00 ugly 13:35:05 hehe :) 13:35:11 bind stuff from FACTS-LIST using D-BIND 13:35:21 okay 13:35:22 destructuring-bind is indeed your pal 13:35:30 qebab [i=finnrobi@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 13:35:34 use WITH-ACCESSORS for ORIG-DATA 13:36:02 assert PLUSP 13:36:09 oh 13:36:14 you try to return the mapcar value in the flet 13:36:21 but ASSERT returns nil 13:36:34 so you need to use a PROG1 or a PROG1-BIND (non-standard) 13:36:46 otherwise the retval of MAPCAR is discarded 13:36:49 is that what you searched for? 13:37:07 no - the assert is outside the lambda 13:37:52 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:38:43 so when I try to examine any of the variables - like say agent - slime complains about unbound-variable 13:39:21 Dawgmatix_: hit RET on the frame to see the variables. 13:40:35 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:41:19 okay that works :) 13:41:43 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:17 strangely enough it doesnt show all the variables 13:42:41 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-250-229.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:31 but why are you using MAPCAR just to discard the result? 13:44:00 now i see. the ASSERT is outside FLET bindings 13:44:07 it's just your indentation that's incorrect 13:44:17 yes :) 13:44:24 sorry about that 13:44:36 press C-M-q before a form to indent it properly 13:44:54 okay 13:46:35 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.94.233] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:50:54 -!- a-s [n=user@91.201.80.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:51:27 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.94.233] has joined #lisp 13:53:37 icylisper [n=user@115.99.32.68] has joined #lisp 13:53:55 Xach: Xof would be happy. Coders at Work got tweeted by someone with enough followers I had to put *that* graph on a log scale too. 13:54:06 hah. who? 13:54:46 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 13:57:24 http://twitter.com/clatko 14:03:51 his name starts with cl! 14:05:21 oh my, coders at work is 634 pages? 14:05:30 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:08:48 weirdo: yeah. 14:09:00 They typeset it in a fairly spacious way, however. 14:09:12 weirdo: 634 fast and glorious pages. 14:09:15 *redline6561* goes back to reading 14:10:09 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:10:14 *gigamonkey* reminds redline6561 to write an Amazon review when he's done reading. 14:10:29 gigamonkey: will do. 14:10:46 gigamonkey: though I saw you got at least 1 5-star since we spoke last. :) 14:11:53 Yeah. Clawing my way back. 14:16:15 what's up with the 1 start jackass 14:16:26 s/start/star 14:16:28 felideon: dunno. 14:16:48 But you sum up my feelings about it exactly. ;-) 14:16:55 :) 14:17:03 SICP has a lot of one-star reviews too. 14:17:37 Well the book didn't meet his expectation. 14:17:47 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.128.223.209] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:18:19 tcr: True. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. 14:18:22 seejay [n=seejay@plexyplanet.org] has joined #lisp 14:18:50 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:19:02 -!- seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has left #lisp 14:19:22 that's true. I guess he was expecting lectures from each guy 14:20:11 From the book summary, his expectation isn't that far fetched. 14:21:35 HET2 [n=diman@131.251.176.98] has joined #lisp 14:23:40 tcr: Hopefully most people coming to the book will have heard in advance that it's a book of interviews so they won't be disappointed. 14:23:47 But I see what you mean. 14:24:19 (Ironically, I would rather have written the kind of book we're theorizing he really wanted. Q&A is not my favorite genre.) 14:24:32 I haven't read the book myself (or Founders at Work for that matter), but it seems like the problem with this sort of book I guess, is that everyone wishes they were they interviewer. i.e. "I would have asked him ___" 14:24:57 gigamonkey: are you happy with what you've written though? 14:25:05 sohail [n=sohail@69.165.148.98] has joined #lisp 14:25:06 felideon: Yeah. Though in theory if you do it really well, you minimize that. 14:25:40 mathrick: Yeah. I'm pleased with the way it came out. It's just a hard format to work in. 14:25:49 nod 14:26:10 Hey, at least Mr. One-Star liked the chapter introductions--the only real "writing" I got to do. ;-) 14:26:18 hehe 14:26:20 :) 14:26:35 typist at work 14:27:17 gigamonkey: Did you send a couple of topics the interview is going to be about prior to your visit so they could prepare? 14:27:26 tcr: nope. 14:27:48 Though I did at least two sessions with each interviewee. 14:29:38 http://www.reddit.com/user/deafmacro <-- heh @ username 14:30:01 http://icylisper.blogspot.com/2009/09/bootstrapping-lisp-environment.html kindly comment :) 14:32:28 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 14:32:48 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:51 -!- mikezor_ is now known as mikezor 14:35:07 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 14:37:36 icylisper, i don't think it's good to run separate lisp applications in the separate images 14:38:13 weirdo: any rationale behind the thinking ? 14:38:45 icylisper, applications ought to be able to interact 14:39:02 lispm didn't have processes - everything was one big image 14:39:08 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-1-29.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:08 Can anyone explain why INVOKE-DEBUGGER runs the invoke-debugger-hook before the debugger-hook in SBCL? I can't make sense of the comment explaining the rationale. 14:39:48 weirdo: that's good in theory, but when some code using FFI breaks everything it's not looking good 14:40:13 stassats`, then don't run such code :-) 14:40:26 easy to say 14:40:48 icylisper, how does that distinguish from say clbuild? 14:41:22 Fare: it uses clbuild. perhaps a better question is what value does it add? 14:41:23 I used to think that processes were a bad idea, but I think they're a good idea, and poor ipc is the problem. 14:41:27 gigamonkey, how did you prepare for questions to ask? 14:42:36 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:43:05 Fare: 1) facilitate attach/detach from images (each image has its own swank instance on a differnt port) 2) provision to specify how the image/app is invoked 14:43:47 Fare: its a wrapper around clbuild that provides the above facilities 14:44:15 -!- Intensity [i=[cbPeuAL@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:44:54 Fare: basically provide a framework to define images/applications - its installation, compilation and invocation. 14:45:08 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@190.135.39.229] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:45:56 in case anybody is interested, I've put up a newer version to http://dwim.hu/ 14:46:17 if you go to the project hu.dwim.wui and then to the demo tab you will see a tree of components 14:46:23 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:46:52 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:03 there are quite a few (and this is only a small subset), but anyway there's a funny found under Meta/Object/Lisp form invoker 14:47:42 so, there is no just direct link to it? 14:49:46 levy_: ;; error # during reading /var/opt/hu.dwim.home/workspace/hu.dwim.wui/source/util/util.lisp for # 14:49:52 stassats`: You got some time? C-c M-o at the REPL annoyingly sets the cursor to the beginning of the new prompt and doesn't save the original position in the old input. 14:50:13 levy_: I just clicked at "Source -> Class Browser" 14:50:39 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.94.233] has left #lisp 14:50:53 levy_: and it throws UNKNOWN-ERROR-AT-TOPLEVEL whenever you choose anything from the menubar 14:51:09 it works fine for me 14:51:12 tcr: i see, should be easy 14:51:31 Hopefully :-) but slime-repl.el is a mess. The type-ahead bug is still there 14:51:33 Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.94.233] has joined #lisp 14:51:34 okay, testing in chromium / linux then 14:52:11 tcr: will some of your changes described at ECLM make it into main slime? 14:53:07 Xach: Sure. Gimme some time, though. 14:53:22 *Xach* can wait 14:54:09 Intensity [i=[tK2jh6l@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 14:54:11 -!- angerman [n=angerman@d058.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 14:54:18 The presentation is here http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/slime-lightning-talk-eclm-2009.pdf btw. Please don't make it too public (i.e. do not post to reddit) 14:55:31 mathrick, weird, Source -> Class Browser brings the source of persistent-class for me without error 14:55:34 tcr: i got it fixed, waiting for CVS to awake 14:55:35 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 14:55:47 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 14:55:51 Nice thank you 14:55:53 levy_: whatever in the menu bar errors out for me 14:56:03 lemme see if it's browser-specific 14:56:12 -!- LiamH [n=healy@129-2-175-69.wireless.umd.edu] has left #lisp 14:56:20 mathrick, could you try reloading the page 14:56:25 with shift + reload 14:56:25 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 14:56:29 tcr: I wonder if it is possible to have slime-autodoc when typing the function but not when moving the point around 14:56:39 and delete the link back to dwim.hu 14:56:39 please 14:56:43 tcr: done. 14:57:11 leo2007: eldoc is doing this, maybe it can be configured 14:57:47 heh, I just realized a stale TODO in persistent-class: flattening subclasses into superclass'es table is already supported 14:57:49 levy_: same error, but only in chromium 14:58:13 jaoswald [i=88b60219@gateway/web/freenode/x-xbhrlftpsxlctied] has joined #lisp 14:58:15 does CLOS have a method akin to pythons __call__ ? (where an instance can be used as a function) 14:58:16 mathrick, is chromium the same as google-chrome? 14:58:21 should be 14:58:23 leo2007: Set slime-use-autodoc-mode to nil, and set slime-echo-arglist to 'slime-compute-autodoc 14:58:39 leo2007: This will display the arglist each time you press SPACE, but not automatically 14:58:42 drhodes: there's funcallables 14:58:47 drhode: Not standard, but many implementations provides a 'funcallable' class. 14:58:48 which are objects that can be funcalled 14:58:54 thanks mathrick 14:58:55 mathrick, hmm, now I got the error under google-chrome 14:59:24 leo2007: you have to set slime-use-autodoc-mode to nil before your (slime-setup ...) line in your .emacs 14:59:25 Zhivago: I thought it was standard, as it was needed for symbol macros? Though I guess you only need the implementation support 14:59:47 You don't need funcallables for symbol macros. 14:59:51 levy_: so you see now. There's a good chance it will occur in safari/other webkit browsers as well 14:59:59 -!- ASau [n=user@host15-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 15:00:11 You need something along those lines to implement generic functions easily, though. 15:00:16 Zhivago: yes, thinko 15:00:55 tcr: there's no slime-echo-arglist 15:01:11 mathrick, yeah, same error under opera, must be some js weirdness 15:01:42 leo2007: slime-echo-arglist-function 15:01:43 mathrick, it does work under Opera after a shift + reload 15:02:31 Fare: think boots adds value ? 15:02:51 segv_ [n=mb@207-172-92-9.c3-0.129-ubr3.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:02:56 after that, I'm getting error in process filter: Symbol's function definition is void: eldoc-message [2 times] 15:03:05 -!- segv [n=mb@207.172.92.9] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:03:11 icylisper, probably. 15:03:17 -!- segv_ is now known as segv 15:03:23 -!- segv [n=mb@207-172-92-9.c3-0.129-ubr3.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:03:27 maybe I'll be able to try those lisp gadgets after all 15:03:28 could anyone get to the Project / hu.dwim.wui -> demo -> Component / Widget / Menu bar? 15:03:34 for example 15:03:46 Fare: thanks :) 15:04:19 levy_: (require 'eldoc) then 15:04:42 that was for leo2007 15:04:42 stassats`, for what purpose? 15:05:08 icylisper, what if I already have a clbuild checkout? how do I get it to play nice with boots? 15:05:23 will the next thing after boots be black-uniform? 15:05:27 ok 15:05:30 levy_: nope, it doesn't do anything when I click hu.dwim.wui 15:05:41 followed by secret-police-badge? 15:05:49 also, it's good you included keyboard nav, otherwise it'd be impossible to reach it at all 15:05:54 Fare: you could just cp -r clbuild ~/.cl/clbuild/ 15:06:01 the menus don't take the screen size into account 15:06:22 icylisper, what about mv? 15:06:25 or modify boots.conf:CLBUILD path 15:06:38 mathrick, FYI, the menus are dojo widgets 15:06:43 Fare: yes that should do as well 15:06:45 btw, I'm trying to push for caches to be under ~/.cache/ 15:06:52 several other hackers have followed 15:07:03 it's a nice hint to backup software 15:07:12 yeah 15:07:18 stassats`: now it works but why is that required? 15:07:19 perhaps ~/.local/cache 15:07:31 mathrick, how about http://dwim.hu/project/hu.dwim.wui 15:07:46 leo2007: because when you set slime-use-autodoc-mode to nil it wasn't automatically required 15:07:59 hmm, no, it's ~/.cache after all 15:08:01 then Demo -> Menu Bar -> Source 15:08:12 mathrick, .cache is used by cl-launch xfce4, Thunar and apt-file 15:08:26 also Qt and many other things 15:08:35 but that's what I meant 15:08:44 Qt too? Haven't seen that. Glad there is suit. 15:08:58 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 15:09:13 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 15:09:39 *attila_lendvai* changes the fasl location to .cache/lisp-fasl/ in the build which he is just working on 15:09:51 Fare: also about half the GNOME uses it 15:10:07 my ~/.cache has around 10 dirs already 15:10:15 mathrick, I'm not using GNOME much. 15:10:22 attila_lendvai, I'm glad :) 15:10:43 Aszarsha [n=aszarsha@91-164-146-148.rev.libertysurf.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:38 stassats`: thanks 15:14:38 *attila_lendvai* freaks out by the idea that linux boots through shell scripts... the level of stupidity of shell scripting is simply amazing... 15:14:59 -!- lharc [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:15:22 Is it as stupid as using C? 15:15:41 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-143.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:15:49 Zhivago: no, far worse 15:16:02 yeah, some of that stuff seems way fragile 15:16:48 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:16:51 calling a function, one of the simplest things, is just plain broken 15:17:01 -!- jaoswald [i=88b60219@gateway/web/freenode/x-xbhrlftpsxlctied] has left #lisp 15:17:49 Fare: re questions. I don't really know. I originally made a huge list of questions but then as I did the interviews that got distilled down to some pretty basic categories. (How did you learn to program? How do you design/test/read/ software? Etc.) 15:18:08 I also did research on each interviewee so I could ask them some questions specific to them. 15:18:37 viewer [n=user@218.82.165.43] has joined #lisp 15:18:54 how did you chose interviewees? what's the "excluded" list? Did anyone you wanted to interview refuse? 15:19:10 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 15:19:55 I basically chose people I was interested in talking to with an eye towards a somewhat balanced book (along many different axes.) 15:20:27 I tried to get Linus Torvalds and John Carmack and couldn't get any response to my emails and letters. 15:20:44 I guess Linus receives a lot of such requests... 15:20:50 (Actually Linus eventually got back to me and sounded like he'd be willing to do it but then went dark again when I tried to actually set something up.) 15:21:35 And two people, Miguel de Icaza and Anders Hejlsberg agreed to be interviewed but then disappeared when I tried to schedule the interviews. 15:21:51 And Alan Kay originally agreed and then backed out due to time constraints. 15:22:06 Otherwise, the folks in the book are the folks I asked. 15:22:17 Oh, and I tried to get Doug Lea but he was busy. 15:22:46 attila_lendvai: well, init(1) is a C program, and uses inittab. That's the boot for me. All the rest doesn't count. And even, you could easily replace init: mv /usr/bin/sbcl /bin/init 15:23:26 and nothing will be working 15:23:39 attila_lendvai: in how far is it broken? 15:23:44 matimago: that leads to a turing complete discussion... today linux boots using shell scripts. i don't care what is possible... 15:24:28 tcr: in that far that it's so cumbersome that i give up every time. i'll have to learn scsh or something... will look for something else instead of struggling 15:24:34 gigamonkey: I should have suggested Andy Hertzfeld... 15:24:49 (well, perhaps for a 2nd volume). 15:25:45 matimago: Yeah. There's certainly another several dozen folks who could easily have fit in the book. 15:26:06 I wonder if it would be interesting to read interviews with bad programmers ... 15:26:14 :-) 15:26:43 huangjs` [n=user@p3045-ipbf2908marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:26:55 Zhivago: might be hard to get people to agree to be subjects. 15:27:07 Hmm, could be. 15:27:33 Well, don't say you selected them for being bad programmers. That could give interesting interviews anyways. 15:27:53 I wouldn't be interested 15:28:33 If you could get an insight into the various forms of incompetence it might be helpful to a lot of people in fixing those kinds of problems. 15:28:59 gigamonkey: pretend you're doing CaW v2 15:29:01 The question being "what were they thinking?" 15:29:47 Well, you'd want to ask them the same kinds of question as you ask good programmers. You want to know what they think is good and why. 15:30:14 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.164.103] has joined #lisp 15:30:53 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:31:46 Zhivago: I see what you're getting at. But writing a book is painful enough as it is. 15:32:27 Brucio could probably go on and on for hours 15:34:25 -!- Guest89110 [n=Kenjin@89.180.191.26] has quit ["Changing server"] 15:34:29 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:34:35 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@89.180.191.26] has joined #lisp 15:35:01 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-170.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:35:10 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:18 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:36:20 gigamonkey: just committed sbcl 1.0.31.13, which has the fix to WHO-CALLS for inlined functions with complex lambda-lists 15:36:43 easyE [i=[muHYjQF@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 15:36:46 nikodemus: cool. 15:36:57 thanks for the test-case! 15:37:28 I guess that's what happens when someone exercises rarely used functionality. ;-) 15:41:11 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:41:30 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-170.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:31 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:43:18 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 15:47:22 -!- DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-55-19-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:48:15 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-liwssqtwfyutkntp] has joined #lisp 15:48:17 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:48:51 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:50:28 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:51:32 milanj [n=milan@77.46.249.243] has joined #lisp 15:52:45 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 15:53:21 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.228.41] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:54:04 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:54:23 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:55:28 something for antifuchs (possibly corn) http://www.blackphoenixalchemylab.com/poetry.html 15:56:41 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.164.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:57:21 -!- viewer [n=user@218.82.165.43] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:59:34 Brucio At Work, I'd buy that book. 15:59:38 -!- icylisper [n=user@115.99.32.68] has quit ["nil"] 16:00:09 What's about your extended nickname? 16:01:28 Managed to get my Master's degree Monday afternoon after getting back from ECLM and not sleeping much! 16:01:42 tcr: luis finally realised his true self, and it turns out to be an egotic jerk :) 16:01:53 Master-Luis: ooh, congrats 16:02:06 -!- Master-Luis is now known as luis 16:02:37 So your presentation went smoothly? 16:02:44 What questions did they ask? 16:03:37 luis: congratulations! 16:03:48 They asked me a lot about the statistics of my measurements. They were fine, but I don't know enough statistics to really explain why they were fine. 16:04:25 lol 16:04:27 I hate statistics 16:04:48 you should be able to hire people to do your statistics, like you can hire people to clean your office 16:05:24 -!- GrayMagiker [n=steve@c-68-54-2-128.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:05:25 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:05:27 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 16:05:30 luis: what was your master's about? 16:06:06 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-4-35.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:25 I think I should have said that results follow a normal distribution and that they're OK because the standard deviation is low enough. But I don't really know if that's accurate. 16:07:47 luis: you passed, so clearly your standard deviation from truth was low enough :) 16:08:02 Adlai: I've adapted SBCL's GC to perform collection in parallel, with let's say "encouraging" results. 16:08:17 what does "encouraging" mean? 16:09:41 well, I got it running in parallel but my speedup for 2 cores wasn't greater than the synchronization overhead for most benchmarks. 16:10:08 ship it! 16:10:42 luis: So what are you going to do next? 16:10:51 tcr: ship it! 16:10:52 OTOH, it's running in parallel without crashing, which was pretty hard for me. 16:11:14 mathrick: I mean, personally 16:11:22 Also, I got a neat 30% speedup in plain non-parallel gencgc. 16:11:25 that reminds me, is anyone working on the LispOS currently? 16:11:36 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:11:43 luis: was it the one you got pretty much accidentally? 16:11:51 mscala [n=user@library2.wtamu.edu] has joined #lisp 16:12:01 tcr: so, I'm searching for some internship and then I might pursue a PhD. 16:12:34 luis: parallelise the LispWorks GC? 16:12:36 Perhaps jsnell can land you one at google 16:12:36 tcr: but I'm very much conflicted about what exactly I should do. 16:12:56 tcr: not bright enough, I'm afraid. 16:13:00 luis: do it all! You're young. With luck you'll never die! 16:13:09 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 16:13:10 splittist: I asked. They're not hiring. :-) 16:13:13 (except for that spider bite...) 16:14:16 I seem to have survived that spider, and the yelling german lady. Fun little hostel that was. 16:14:28 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-1-237.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:14:29 -!- KingNatoG5_ is now known as KingNatoG5 16:15:58 cool .. just tried the init thing, matimago .. booting the machine and ending up in sbcl instantly is interesting :) 16:16:52 is there a way to create a soft link from lisp without executing ln? 16:17:23 levy_: osicat should have something to do that. Maybe sb-posix as well. 16:17:53 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:17:59 sb-posix:symlink 16:18:22 luis: any details? 16:18:29 (on the gencgc hacks) 16:18:44 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:19:31 levy_: iolib.syscalls:%sys-symlink 16:19:33 nikodemus: I will send patches for the sequential speedups. The parallel GCs needs further work, and I hope to write a paper about that. 16:19:50 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:19:53 cool -- and congrats on the master's! 16:20:45 thanks. I was looking forward to discuss SBCL stuff with you. Shame you didn't make it to ECLM. 16:20:59 yeah 16:21:21 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 16:21:24 ejs [n=eugen@46-113-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:32 feel free to call me on skype, etc, though 16:21:48 not as good as face-to-face, of course 16:21:52 what sort of patterns were the speedups on? 16:22:16 levy_: osicat-posix:symlink 16:22:24 *splittist* imagines luis calling nikodemus at 3am... 16:22:46 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:49 we're both in europe, aren't we? 16:23:38 also: with parallelism, do you mean collecting in parallel with allocation, or having multiple collector threads? 16:24:58 nikodemus: yeah, it stil stops the world. I can't imagine how much harder a concurrent GC would have been. Some day! 16:25:17 yeh 16:25:25 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit ["dentist"] 16:25:37 i'm trying to improve some aspects of the gc performance myself just now 16:26:18 nikodemus: ok, I should send you my benchmarks and my patch then. 16:26:26 thanks! 16:27:23 nikodemus: I *think* most of the speedup came from inlining the four pointer scavengers (instead of going through scavtab). 16:31:13 Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-081-077.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 16:31:53 wow 16:33:25 robyonrails [n=roby@host131-177-dynamic.53-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:33:40 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.163.214.130] has joined #lisp 16:36:01 kpreid___ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:28 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:37:37 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@62-150.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 16:39:19 nikodemus: sent you a bunch of stuff via privmsg. 16:39:54 -!- ampleyfly [n=ampleyfl@fritz.lysator.liu.se] has quit ["leaving"] 16:41:41 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host131-177-dynamic.53-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 16:42:26 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:42:40 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:42:49 p0a [n=user@athedsl-389523.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:43:32 Hello I've learned some CLOS to read the CFFI tutorial 16:44:01 I've never found out what ((...) &key) is about. Why specify '&key'? 16:44:46 In DEFMETHOD. For instance: (defmethod foo :after ((x y) &key)) 16:45:47 p0a: methods must have a lambda-list compatible with that of the generic function. 16:46:25 p0a: If the GF takes keywords, then your method must as well, even if you just throw them away. 16:46:30 If the generic function lambda-list allows keyword arguments, then each method needs to allow them too. 16:46:50 &key allows arguments? Would it be the same to use &rest? 16:46:58 clhs 7.6.4 16:46:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_fd.htm 16:47:23 I see 16:47:31 that answers my questions ;-) 16:47:50 p0a: the hyperspec almost always does. 16:47:59 clhs 42 16:47:59 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 42. 16:48:02 :( 16:48:05 drewc: but I rarely know where to look at, unlike some people here 16:48:06 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:48:27 stassats`, 42 is the answer, you have to ask the right question :P 16:49:00 p0a: how do you think they learned where to look if not by poking randomly at the bugger until it spits out the info you want. 16:49:27 by reading from cover to cover 16:49:46 p0a: if your question involves generic functions and methods, for example, section 7.6 Generic Functions and Methods is probably a good place to start. 16:50:22 what's that fancy emacs mode for editing stuff? ah, org-mode 16:50:22 stassats`: i have never done that with the hyperspec... sounds pretty dull :). 16:50:23 *stassats`* found 7.6.4 by looking up defmethod and searching for "congrue" 16:50:27 I will try to use the standard more (right now it's just C-c C-d h) 16:50:51 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 16:50:52 Fare: org-mode rules. 16:51:01 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181150041.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:51:31 Fare: i have a parser for org-mode in CL if you ever want to transform org-mode files and hate elisp as much as it. 16:51:35 s/it/i 16:51:38 *Fare* promised whoever that he'd try org-mode for his next doc. Is there an html backend? 16:52:01 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:01 Fare: indeed C-x C-e C-b will export to html and open a browser on the document 16:52:18 drewc was an it, and is now an i. Or how inorganic matter becomes intelligent. We have an AI in the channel! 16:52:34 -!- xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has quit ["Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.2.0"] 16:52:38 gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:38 drewc, is there a standard suffix for org mode? .org ? 16:52:46 Fare: you assume my intelligence :P 16:52:50 yeah, .org 16:53:11 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-72-136.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:53:16 Fare: i found http://doc.norang.ca/org-mode.html a great resource 16:53:31 -!- whartung [n=willh@207.38.40.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:55:36 gonzojive [n=red@DN800cf709.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 16:56:50 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181150041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:57:21 xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 16:58:03 whartung [n=willh@207.38.40.1] has joined #lisp 17:04:54 -!- warinthepocket_ is now known as warinthepocket 17:05:02 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:05:09 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:05:25 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:05:26 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:05:50 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-90395.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 17:05:59 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 17:07:42 -!- sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has quit ["goodbye, and thx for all the fish"] 17:08:04 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-170.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:08:05 sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 17:09:14 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 17:09:59 -!- gonzojive [n=red@DN800cf709.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 17:10:57 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181150041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:12:57 hmmm I just built CLISP for stumpwm, and it seems to have no FFI. Anybody had such a problem? 17:13:43 *Adlai* searches for "libffcall" 17:15:02 if you go to http://dwim.hu/ and select Project / hu.dwim.perec / Test tab, then you can browse the stefil test suite hierarchy and test code with ajax... 17:15:02 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Verlassend"] 17:15:04 pepone [n=pepone@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 17:15:44 Project / hu.dwim.wui / demo tab provides a set of ui component demos 17:16:41 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-63-111.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:16:46 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.203.134] has joined #lisp 17:18:54 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:19:04 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 17:19:07 Good evening! 17:20:31 Ralith_ [n=ralith@d142-058-081-077.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 17:21:34 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-081-077.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:21:43 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:22:05 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:22:56 hi plage 17:23:17 Would anyone be interested in a CFFI of this library? http://laurikari.net/tre/ 17:23:24 Or cl-ppcre became de facto? 17:24:04 p0a: cl-ppcre is very performant and all implemented in Common Lisp. 17:24:15 ie, I doubt anybody would be interested in that. 17:24:21 I'm just trying to find a library to test my knowledge on 17:24:47 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:24:48 Do you have a library to recommend? 17:24:50 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 17:25:22 you mean a foreign library? 17:25:34 yes 17:26:38 hmmm not too sure about that one... I guess you could look at some Unixy library, to help bring #about CL-POSIX 17:27:25 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 17:28:37 -!- kpreid___ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:28:39 I could write a test library (in C) to try CFFI, I'll probably try that 17:28:41 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:28:51 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:26 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32E7F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:29 isn't the point of CFFI to reuse existing C code rather than writing more? 17:30:30 Adlai: Like I said, I'm trying to test what I've learned.. 17:30:50 p0a: don't ask which! 17:31:08 What does that mean? 17:31:11 p0a: just list all the libraries there's a debian or gentoo package for, and start with the first one. 17:31:22 Then the next, and so on until you've done all of them. 17:31:36 I don't think so :-P 17:31:38 (you can test if a given library as already a CFFI interface to skip it). 17:32:12 You'd be the King of CFFI libraries. Newbies and seasoned lispers would adore you! 17:32:13 p0a: you can sort them by usefulness first if that is what you're aiming at 17:32:18 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:32:56 If you did that, you'd be remembered by generations of lispers! 17:33:04 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-68-127-147-53.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:39 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:33:56 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:34:07 Yes but it doesn't matter anyway so I'm not doing it. I'm going to search my IRC logs to find which library had once been recommended to me (something about audio) 17:34:27 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-35-218-192.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:50 roygbiv [n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 17:36:04 kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:29 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:36:32 p0a: maybe it was libjack? it is an impossible one. 17:36:55 lhz: yes, that was it 17:37:02 thanks btw, I was trying to remember the name 17:37:30 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:37:46 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:39:40 tagac [n=user@141.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:39:58 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-389523.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 17:40:43 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 17:40:45 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@99.39.6.163] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:41:04 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@78-69-144-82-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:41:55 Instead of ffi, if writing the C code carefully, maybe it would be possible to "relink" it into an lisp function, that the GC would carry around like any other function. 17:44:01 lhz: Yes. Somewhat. That's what clisp modules are. 17:45:11 Dawgmatix [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:30 is there someway to get a random key,value from a hash ? or is maphash & gethash the only way to access the hash table ? 17:46:50 *levy_* heading out to do some sport 17:46:55 -!- levy_ [n=levy@apn-94-44-0-84.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 17:47:01 -!- gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 17:48:09 *Adlai* is running stumpwm on CLISP! finally! 17:48:35 hehe, my stumpwm memory image is now 11 MB, as opposed to the 88 MB from sbcl... 17:48:51 -!- Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:48:54 which lisp ? 17:49:27 Dawgmatix: there's no portable way (I don't know of non-portable ones either) to do that without #having to maphash. 17:49:31 Dawgmatix: no directly indeed. You'd have to know the keys at least. 17:49:35 Dawgmatix: Store the keys in a parallel structure, such as a list or a vector. 17:49:43 okay :) 17:50:04 As for my stumpwm setup -- "CLISP" is an implementation of "Common Lisp"... the names are a bit similar... 17:50:08 gonzojive [n=red@c-76-21-118-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:10 simonh [n=simonhol@92.28.67.36] has joined #lisp 17:50:31 Clisp is a lisp implemented in C. Hence the name. 17:51:00 hmmmm, I guess that makes a bit of sense. 17:52:35 there are other lisps implemented in C though... 17:52:47 or at least, with a core in C 17:53:55 tsuru [n=user@c-76-22-154-126.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:56 Very few. Most only have in C just the glue to unix. 17:54:20 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:56:02 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 17:57:19 Does Clisp have only an interpreter, not a compiler? 17:57:31 Makoryu: it has a bytecode compiler 17:57:47 I guess that's socially and ethically acceptable 17:57:47 it compiles very quickly, but executes the compiled code more slowly 17:57:54 Makoryu: it compiles to bytecode.. i'm not sure if there is an interpreter at all. 17:58:06 A byte compiler and a jit compiler. 17:58:27 There's both an interpreter and a compiler. 17:58:37 pjb: don't you have to supply an external JIT compiler? 17:58:45 The interpreter is nice to debug ; the compiler throws away most debugging information. 17:58:49 at least, that's how it seemed when I was reading the build instructions just now 17:58:55 Adlai: no, it's included in the VM. 17:59:06 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AA88.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:08 It uses lightning. 18:00:50 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:01:29 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:03:24 pjb: interesting. I have no clue what that means but I need to go. 18:03:47 prepare yourself for many ignorant questions from me about JIT compilation at some point... :) 18:04:06 -!- Ralith_ [n=ralith@d142-058-081-077.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:04:22 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Client Quit] 18:07:18 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-184-135.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:07:29 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:07:31 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-176-79.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:07:45 -!- ejs [n=eugen@46-113-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:08:03 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:16:24 Edward__ [i=Ed@90.3.236.100] has joined #lisp 18:16:36 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslee010.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:16:44 -!- HET2 [n=diman@131.251.176.98] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:18:00 -!- simonh [n=simonhol@92.28.67.36] has left #lisp 18:19:50 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 18:19:53 [m]arvin [n=bernd@d91-130-24-84.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 18:21:45 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:21:52 -!- [m]arvin [n=bernd@d91-130-24-84.cust.tele2.at] has left #lisp 18:21:54 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:30 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has left #lisp 18:27:19 gz_ [n=gz@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:51 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:37 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.84] has joined #lisp 18:31:11 grantolney [n=grant@host86-164-69-88.range86-164.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:31:58 -!- grantolney [n=grant@host86-164-69-88.range86-164.btcentralplus.com] has left #lisp 18:32:26 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:34:17 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176149217.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:34:32 Grue` [n=grue@masq.snto-msu.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:02 -!- Grue` [n=grue@masq.snto-msu.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:35:43 wchogg [n=wchogg@71-34-77-216.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:44 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-190-81.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 18:41:44 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.84] has quit ["Leaving..."] 18:44:40 mfk [n=user@kpbisb.static.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 18:46:39 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:47:40 woo. my copy of Coders at Work arrived 18:47:49 dlowe: woot! 18:47:53 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 18:48:29 cl-posix? don't we have iolib? 18:48:59 attila_lendvai: well, iolib has no documentation. Posix does. 18:49:25 no, no, no. osicat-posix! 18:49:30 dlowe: I see you're not a M-. man :D 18:49:32 ahh, documentation, right. wonder why i didn't think of that... :) 18:50:06 fe[nl]ix: docstrings aren't a substitute for english explanations and examples about HOW to use a library 18:50:55 fe[nl]ix: although i don't see why that %sys- prefix instead of a separate package. then people can decide between prefixing everything with a package name or just :use it 18:51:05 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-liwssqtwfyutkntp] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:51:33 dlowe: no. it's the test suite that describes it... :) and in the case of posix, well... 18:52:21 *attila_lendvai* never reads english explanations unless it's a very succinct bird's view 18:52:41 attila_lendvai: test suites suck too. Perhaps you have time to read through every test suite of every library you might consider using, but some of us usually don't want to screw around with that crap. 18:53:08 dlowe: most of iolib(except for the muxer) is not a very complex framework, but only a thin(ish) wrapper around syscalls 18:53:30 That makes a fine first sentence for some documentation 18:53:44 eheh 18:53:52 dlowe: then we work in a very different fashion. i find the source, use M-. and the repl... all of them are before even checking whether there's a documentation or not 18:53:53 there's not substantial need for me to write docs for it apart from docstrings 18:54:13 Well, then don't act surprised when people would rather use posix 18:54:24 Documentation is a chore, just admit it. :-) 18:54:52 iow, waste of time :D 18:55:23 time spent of the docs should be spent on the code to make it clearer, more self documenting, etc 18:55:26 If you want other people to actually use your library, then making the initial hurdles as low as possible becomes a priority. If you don't care if they do, then that's fine. 18:55:58 iow, work on designing a dishwasher instead of washing the dishes. and even if you fail, it'll be much more fun... :) 18:56:02 I much prefer to improve its source code 18:56:13 dlowe: I care, but up to a certain point 18:56:22 Then you will have an excellent library that very few people will use *shrug* 18:56:51 a fine and exclusive club :D 18:57:04 just like lisp 18:57:09 to be honest i want users who use the lib in a smart way and potentially give back code/patches. those users who complain for docs usually don't return much 18:57:28 yes! 18:57:28 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has joined #lisp 18:57:35 *_3b* usually just wants example usage, but tests tend to be too low level for that 18:58:39 fe[nl]ix: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/named-readtables.html is generated 95% from doc strings 18:59:16 most if IOLib is...posix. most of the expected userbase is already familiar with posix and using the existing system manpages. 18:59:27 much documentation beyond that seems like a waste 19:00:07 tcr: 95% or just the dictionary part? 19:00:12 mle: The docstrings could reference manpages, and the documentation generator could automatically link the references to the manpages. 19:00:23 *luis* uses the CFFI manual himself from time to time. 19:00:43 dlowe: The sections are generated from the package's docstring. 19:00:50 varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:01:01 tcr: that's an interesting way to do it. 19:01:11 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:01:15 tcr: sure, but function names will match up, to a large extent. Links are a good approach though; harder for docs to get out of sync that way 19:01:32 With a very simple markup. SHOUTING means lisp symbol (possibly interlinked), _underline_, `variable-name' 19:01:52 tcr: it'd be cool if I could actually darcs get it, though 19:01:54 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@209.131.62.113] has joined #lisp 19:02:02 /glossary item/ 19:02:06 in the case of things like IOLib, any more than that would be wrong; each different system's posix implementation has different quirks 19:02:25 dlowe: "it"? 19:02:28 mle: I disagree. 19:02:38 tcr: named-readtables 19:03:12 dlowe: isn't it wonderful to disagree ? 19:03:28 dlowe: Oh you can. But there's still a bug dcrawford pointed out. I wanted to fix that today but I wasted my time tracking down some obscure bug in ABCL 19:03:39 fe[nl]ix: it's wonderful to say something would be wrong too 19:03:51 tcr: the download link on the documentation is broken 19:03:56 Hm. My ideal docstring is a one-sentence description of what it does, links to relevant other functions in lisp or c, and perhaps an example if the syntax or semantics are remarkably different/extended from the normal function of that name. 19:04:17 tcr: is there going to be a way to tie readtables to packages instead of a separate in-readtable in each file? 19:04:40 attila_lendvai: not unless you shadow in-package 19:04:48 attila_lendvai: That's not doable portably 19:05:05 anyway, on the other side of the coin, I've found that authors who don't provide prose documentation don't care that much about their users and are unlikely to be of help. So I don't use those libraries. 19:05:29 dlowe: you'd be wrong here 19:05:31 dlowe: ...for a wrapper library? 19:05:32 dlowe: documentation can even be an obstacle in the form of noise... just think of "Returns the value of foo"... 19:05:39 -!- mfk [n=user@kpbisb.static.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:05:50 mfk [n=user@kpbisb.static.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 19:05:58 -!- mfk [n=user@kpbisb.static.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:05:58 fe[nl]ix: but i'd like to have slime and asdf (and xcvb) integration 19:06:11 attila_lendvai: That's not documentation. That's just a one-line description of one function. 19:06:24 mle: I've been told iolib has a muxer 19:06:41 dlowe: yes, and some people generate loooong web pages from them and point to it: documentation! :) 19:07:18 dlowe: sure; that should be well documented. but wrapper functions aren't appropriate. The once-and-only-once principle should apply to documentation as well. 19:07:22 -!- Aszarsha [n=aszarsha@91-164-146-148.rev.libertysurf.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:07:28 dlowe: as I said, that's the exception 19:07:29 attila_lendvai: I'm glad we agree that docstrings are useless for explaining a library :p 19:07:51 stassats`: the sieve example works on SBCL now. 19:07:55 it's absolute hilarity 19:08:09 fe[nl]ix: since none of it is documented, I don't really see your point 19:08:32 i believe in a succinct bird's view and self documenting code. i wasn't like that, i used to read docs, but i gradually started to ignore documentation up to a point that i don't even look for it anymore (when it comes to lisp code) 19:08:41 dlowe: I'm certainly not advocating using /just/ docstrings. 19:08:52 dlowe: all socket functions have good docstrings 19:09:14 fe[nl]ix: and no actual documentation on which functions are the right ones to call at which times 19:10:08 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.164.103] has joined #lisp 19:11:26 I'm tired of taking on the whole channel. But as a parting argument, I'd like to point out that the excellent documentation is one of the many reasons Edi Weitz's libraries are so highly regarded. 19:11:33 coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 19:12:04 dlowe: I'm with you! Good documentation is good. 19:12:05 dlowe: I'm with you, for what it's worth. At least wrt to the importance of plain english descriptions. 19:12:07 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-0-44.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:12:40 in external texinfo, or automatically extractable source comments, sure. In a docstring? 19:13:01 a docstring should be a reminder. 19:13:20 docstrings are useful in the sense that they can be used both to document the interface and extract it to create more formal docs. 19:14:21 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:14:35 dlowe: there's no point in me replicating the posix docs 19:14:50 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:15:00 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:24 HG` [n=HG@xdslee010.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:15:39 i'm a happy user of iolib. ask fe[nl]ix how many times i've asked for docs... (although i must mentiont that did ask for a testsuite in the early days :) 19:16:29 tcr: BTW, thanks. Our brief conversation earlier really helped me grok what that 1-star reviewer was actually saying. 19:17:12 -!- delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:17:26 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 19:18:24 Yeah I didn't think of him being a total whacko. 19:21:10 mfk [n=user@kpbisb.static.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 19:22:20 redline6561 [n=redline@168.28.180.20] has joined #lisp 19:25:54 sykopomp: works on sbcl, though not on ccl 19:27:20 dlowe: some have a fetish for documentation. I prefer docstrings and M-. , much like with emacs documentation 19:27:56 I think I've only browsed the emacs manual a couple of times in 8 years 19:28:51 fe[nl]ix: you must be really special, then. congratulations. really. 19:29:41 dlowe: fwiw, I totally agree you wrt. documentation 19:30:02 Yeah. Go dlowe! 19:30:21 *Xach* has found writing documentation to be difficult but worthwhile 19:30:37 fe[nl]ix: You browse the source instead? 19:30:59 I never do that because the source isn't very readable, and the elisp manual is very well written 19:32:12 tcr: I tend to read other people's code or browse the source 19:33:14 fe[nl]ix: where would you expect more involved protocols to be documented? As ;; comments in the code? 19:33:59 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:34:12 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 19:35:03 many elisp writers do just that 19:37:28 elderK [n=zk@122-57-241-160.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:39:12 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@90.3.236.100] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:39:30 Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-66-114.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:40:13 Aisling [i=ash@24.89.251.92] has joined #lisp 19:41:16 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-143.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:43:17 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 19:45:16 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:48:31 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C520.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 19:53:19 -!- Hazelesque [n=hazel@143.210.72.222] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:55:03 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C520.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:33 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 19:55:41 Greetings. 19:56:11 -!- Levenson [n=Levenson@92.46.94.233] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:57:09 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:57:39 p0a [n=user@athedsl-389523.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 19:58:08 Hello if I am looking to obtain either the real or imaginary part of a complex number #C(x y), what do I do? 19:58:35 p0a: visit http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_realpa.htm 19:58:52 p0a: perhaps followed by a browse through http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_number.htm 19:59:07 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-170-201-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:59:28 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:00:55 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-31-233-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:07 Heh, the complex type is not the mathematical complex set. 20:01:30 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:03:29 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 20:05:09 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-66-114.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:05:24 Edward__ [i=Ed@81.249.196.111] has joined #lisp 20:05:58 peddie [n=peddie@c-67-170-201-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:42 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.163.214.130] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:07:28 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:55 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:08:43 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:08:50 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:54 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 20:11:53 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-56.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:12:40 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:13:13 meow 20:13:28 slime hackers, sometimes after compiling stuff, my cursor jumps up 20:13:48 it's not related to compilation notes, because it doesn't jump to a compilation note, but to copious output 20:14:01 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-190-81.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:14:48 you know what/ 20:14:58 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-72-136.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:15:17 apparently using non-proclaimed-special symbols is defined to get their special value 20:15:23 To obtain the current dynamic value of a symbol, use of symbol-value is equivalent (and usually preferable) to use of eval. 20:15:23 clhs evla 20:15:24 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for evla. 20:15:25 clhs eval 20:15:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eval.htm 20:16:17 Some other part indicates they should be lexical 20:16:36 iirc in the evaluation model for symbols 20:18:57 omichael [n=user@64.34.179.211] has joined #lisp 20:19:09 ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 20:20:03 hi 20:20:05 weirdo: I have seen that too. for example when compiling packages in the repl by asdf 20:20:13 yes 20:22:53 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:23:50 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 20:23:52 salva pasted "beginner problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87252 20:24:38 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 20:24:38 salva: you have several problems. 20:24:40 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@168.28.180.20] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:24:40 i post a problem that don't find how to solve 20:25:34 salva: the first is that (css-menu "a" "b") *prints* two items "a" and "b", and *returns* one "{ /* ..." 20:25:39 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:26:00 You have to make up your mind: do you want to print stuff, or do you want to return it? (Or do you really want to print half and return half?) 20:26:18 no, i want return its 20:26:48 thanks, 20:27:04 i'll try solve that 20:27:07 Ok. Then you could use: (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (princ item) (princ "{...}")) ; notice the use of PRINC instead of PRINT. 20:27:34 (format nil "~{~A~%~}{/*css menu definition}" '(a b)) 20:27:35 Or: (format t ...); T means to format *standard-output*. 20:28:09 it if it's cascading style sheets, make some DSL instead of treating stuff as strings 20:28:20 -!- hohum_ is now known as hohum 20:28:30 weirdo: newbie alert! 20:28:54 weirdo: let's learn to make a difference between printing and returning first. We'll see DSL and complex format control strings later... 20:28:57 yes my idea is build a dsl, but my knwle of lisp y very limited 20:29:10 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229181229.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 20:29:25 learn more lisp 20:29:40 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-389523.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["it's always the answer!"] 20:29:57 yes, i lear some html generators and are few lines of code, but i cant undestand it 20:30:07 i read 20:30:22 thanks 20:30:23 salva: notice that the source of your confusion was probably the REPL, which is the Read Eval PRINT Loop that takes your expressions and evaluate them, then PRINTs the results. So when you try out expressions, the result is printed too. 20:30:37 yes 20:30:40 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-76-21-118-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:30:52 But when you use these expression in a program, the returned values are not printed anymore, if you don't do it explicitely. 20:31:57 ok 20:33:37 load up slime presentations 20:33:50 then the result will be clickable and of different color 20:33:51 :) 20:33:54 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-45.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:34:23 I'm not sure presentations solve salva's problem, but they're definitely a great debugging tool. Highly recommended! 20:34:36 (you have presentations in SLDB buffers too) 20:35:50 well i need lear to debug lisp, you recomended to me that begin with presentatios,or must i learn basics with REPL only? 20:36:19 salva: do you use emacs? 20:36:36 im beginnig with macs too 20:37:02 minion: tell slava about slime 20:37:05 salva: if you use Emacs, I think that SLIME's features are valuable tools. 20:37:06 slava: look at slime: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/slime 20:37:11 s/slava/salva 20:37:24 yes im using slime with aquamacs 20:37:35 create a basic asdf project 20:37:49 salva: did you set it up yourself? If so, check to make sure that you're using the slime-fancy feature. 20:42:43 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:42:44 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:56 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:43:34 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:45:56 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-45.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:26 -!- tagac [n=user@141.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has left #lisp 20:48:47 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:49:46 Adlai: yes i setup ti and dont have any slime-fancy in .emas 20:50:21 thanks 20:51:34 salva: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Contributed-Packages.html#Contributed-Packages 20:52:08 most of those contribs get included if you just pull in slime-fancy 20:55:38 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:56:48 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@81.249.196.111] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 20:57:00 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:57:00 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:57:02 -!- elderK [n=zk@122-57-241-160.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [] 20:57:12 HG`` [n=HG@xdslez081.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:57:12 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:01:02 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:01:15 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:57 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 21:03:05 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 21:06:54 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslee010.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:12:30 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 21:14:46 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:14:59 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:15:05 -!- varjag [n=eugene@103.80-202-117.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:17:59 drforr [n=drforr@pool-173-55-19-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:08 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-235.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:19:28 -!- warinthepocket [n=wipt@74-32-239-39.dr01.jrdn.mn.frontiernet.net] has left #lisp 21:19:45 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:19:54 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:14 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:27:05 -!- andrewks [n=aks@ottawa-hs-209-217-123-147.d-ip.magma.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:29:51 Makoryu: how about glasses? 21:30:11 v0|d: Sorry? 21:30:35 Makoryu: sunglasses. 21:31:09 I guess I see.... 21:31:12 *Makoryu* puts some on 21:31:16 ....what you mean. 21:31:23 YEEEEEAAAAHHHHHHHH 21:32:13 :) 21:32:31 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C520.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 21:35:41 Kickaha [n=user@92.250.103.245] has joined #lisp 21:38:12 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:39:28 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:39:50 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:40:02 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 21:40:03 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:40:04 Geralt1 [n=Geralt@p5B32DCFB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:22 -!- Geralt1 is now known as Geralt 21:40:56 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:03 can anyone explain me the :class parameter in cffi:defcstruct, can't find anything in the documentation 21:42:06 lacedaemon [i=lacedaem@151.82.150.204] has joined #lisp 21:42:40 Hi 21:43:33 -!- HG`` [n=HG@xdslez081.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:43:59 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-153.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:45:47 Kickaha: yes, I think I can help you understand what it does. 21:46:16 it defines a CLOS class to mirror the C struct 21:47:51 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:48:05 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 21:48:40 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 21:49:26 Adlai: i thought that would allow me to work with lisp objects from my code 21:50:02 Adlai: i use that option but my code always returns some System-Area-Pointer :P 21:50:16 right, all it does is just define a class. 21:50:40 (the source code is pretty clear here) 21:51:09 hmmm i see, so if i want to specialize some method on that struct, is there some way to achieve this? 21:51:48 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:51:50 i mean, i need some way to get a lisp object from that class, should i use the translate-from-foreign methods? 21:52:08 I think you'd still have to do a conversion somehow... however, I haven't used CFFI much. 21:52:52 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-176-196.liwest.at] has quit [] 21:52:58 well, the truth is that in this case i don't really need an actual translation (meaning i don't need to convert the slots and all) all i want to achieve is be able to specialize a method 21:53:10 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-189.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:53:11 Moe111 [n=Moe111@modemcable067.226-21-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:53:25 i will see what i can find on cffi:translate-from-foreign and cffi:translate-to-foreign 21:53:34 heyall. What's my best bet for a simple http client and a way to parse a DOM tree? 21:53:41 kinda like html-template but reversed 21:53:48 Moe111: Drakma, trivial-http for the client 21:54:00 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-90395.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:54:02 fusss: thanks 21:54:04 Moe111: I for one like Drakma 21:54:06 to parse the DOM tree CXML is the most elaborate solution 21:54:24 but I use HTML-PARSE, which is less "hard" 21:54:41 -!- mfk [n=user@kpbisb.static.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:55:01 CXML is hard for me because all the XML I know I learned from reading "XML Sucks" articles 21:55:12 i.e. anecdotal 21:55:31 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-078.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:55:41 Moe111: are you gonna be parsing html in a funky non-english language? 21:56:17 *fusss* has a drakma + html-parse + arabic Windows-1256 to UTF-8 thing 21:56:20 no. normal english. Also, I have access to the source code of what's being parsed, so I can fix parsing errors. 21:56:30 I plan on making a smoke testing utility 21:56:43 call it CL-Nose ;-) 21:56:56 Nose? 21:56:58 explain 21:57:14 "*sniff* *sniff*, is something burning?" 21:57:50 ahh. heh 21:57:56 trivial-http is just that, trivial. drakma is halfway between lynx and curl 21:58:18 as far as I Can tell, DRAKMA doesn't parse, does it? 21:58:20 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-curl/ 21:58:34 no it doesn't, it's just an http client library 21:58:37 Moe111: no, it's an HTTP client. HTTP can be used for pretty much arbitrary content. 21:59:01 Moe111: Parsing HTML and fetching things over HTTP are two different tasks. 21:59:06 alright, so HTML-Parse is probably what I Want. 21:59:13 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:59:16 yes, I'm aware. 22:00:35 brokenp cliki-search? 22:01:06 I am getting a page that says "523 results found, showing results 1 to 10. " but with a blank body http://www.cliki.net/admin/search?words=parse+html 22:01:19 http://labs.core.gen.tr/#domprogramming 22:01:41 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:05 lispm [n=joswig@e177150119.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:03:18 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:03:34 Moe111: there is even a cleaned up tiny subset for closure just for parsing html :-) http://www.cliki.net/trivial-html-parser 22:03:48 +1 for trivial-* libs; they make life easier. 22:04:14 they sure do 22:05:45 *redline6561* seconds fusss 22:06:24 I'd rather have such functionality as part of the "big" library 22:06:38 -!- sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:06:48 fwiw, drakma is not much harder to use than trivial-http 22:08:20 we're talking parsers, not clients, though. 22:09:21 http://labs.core.gen.tr/repos/core-server/src/rfc/2616.lisp 22:09:30 i should rather build a client some time. 22:09:40 everybody needs a http-client. 22:10:14 gonzojive [n=red@DN800cf709.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 22:10:25 v0|d: yeah, but why another one? 22:11:05 michaelw: its easy, we have all rfc renders,parsers. 22:11:10 michaelw: just a page maybe. 22:11:24 michaelw: to emulate client behaviour like redirects. 22:11:29 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.249.243] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:11:48 actually i did it for smtp somehwere. 22:12:14 http://labs.core.gen.tr/repos/core-server/src/rfc/2821.lisp here. 22:12:27 look it,s very clear and straight forward. 22:13:50 v0|d: my point is rather, why not improve and polish an existing library, instead of providing another 80 % solution (anything will be invariably "80%" the first time around, IME)? 22:14:12 michaelw: i generally am not interested in %80 solutions. 22:14:32 everybody have some kind of those solutions. 22:14:51 v0|d: that is my whole point. 22:15:16 I am not making myself clear here, apparently. 22:15:30 Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 22:15:36 v0|d: that's just utter hacking machismo 22:15:48 michaelw: i think you are being quite clear myself.. i get you. 22:15:58 ditto here 22:16:02 heh 22:16:18 v0|d: you guys code in your own Core CL dialect it seems 22:16:23 -!- Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:16:39 needs sunglasses. 22:17:02 -!- gz_ [n=gz@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:18:11 michaelw: v0|d is trying to say that since he used his own parsergen library, it was easy to implement the entire RFC, so this is not an 80% solution but a 100% one 22:19:13 fe[nl]ix: the RFCs are all mostly written in a single BNF-variant and there are RFC-grammer to code parsers out there 22:20:01 Coliveira [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has joined #lisp 22:20:10 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 22:20:24 v0|d: are you cooperating with the Huns? Attila et al? 22:21:04 cooperation is for sissies 22:21:16 fe[nl]ix: except parsing is only half the story. what about error handling, API design, interfacing with other libraries (not to become an island solution), etc.? 22:21:36 luis: exactly 22:21:56 hey 22:22:09 michaelw: see above. autarchy is a solution 22:22:13 http://labs.core.gen.tr/#thirdpartylibraries 22:22:20 there is no such thing, dont misinform people. 22:22:23 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 22:22:36 I mean, there are two massively productive lisp projects doing the exact same thing .. there gotta be some cooperation 22:22:58 fusss: we have different approachs. 22:23:08 fusss: different Do, specifically. 22:23:46 -!- lacedaemon [i=lacedaem@151.82.150.204] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:23:53 v0|d: and you both have different approaches to everyone else ;-) maybe if you sat down and talked, the differences could be dissolved? 22:24:13 fusss: nice point, that's why i'm here taking my time. 22:24:27 tushakar v0|d bey! 22:24:29 fusss: Wait, you mean this kind of behavior is *encouraged* in the Lisp community? 22:24:56 fusss: :) didnt know what you mean, but hoping the best. 22:25:02 Makoryu: it's all about sunglasses. 22:25:20 Makoryu: screw the lisp community! I am just out for myself. I mean, if 8+ people are busting their butts making something I really want, they better be working together, imo. 22:25:29 saikat__ [n=saikat@adsl-68-127-147-53.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:35 v0|d: i thanked you in Turkish 22:25:49 Makoryu: what kind of behaviour ? 22:25:57 fe[nl]ix: Cooperation ;) 22:26:05 fusss: nice, thnx. 22:26:18 v0|d: clicking around on the labs website, every other time I get some "page not found" requester in the lower right corner of the browser window 22:26:24 i salute everybody participating. 22:26:34 michaelw: uh 22:27:05 michaelw: that sometimes happens for a reason i dont now. which browser are you using? 22:27:13 Safari 4 22:27:25 i see, dojo does seem not like safari. 22:27:49 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 22:27:59 that was my definite mistake, but there were no jquery monad at the time i was writing that. 22:28:07 michaelw: sorry for inconvenience. 22:28:16 v0|d: grep -in 404 /tmp/hunchentoot-temp/access 22:28:56 fusss: right. 22:28:57 -!- Coliveira [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:29:17 v0|d: what javascript library should cool kids use? 22:29:18 fusss: i would rather do a grep in ~/core-server/var/log/ 22:29:30 luis: jquery 22:29:33 luis: dont know, they've been implementing at a very high speed. 22:29:42 is sbcl maintained purely through git now? 22:29:48 but i have my own these days. 22:30:27 DeusExPikachu: the official tree is CVS 22:30:32 v0|d: of course you do :) 22:30:42 KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:49 ok so its still a hybrid 22:30:59 fusss: for GUI stuff too? 22:31:09 luis: specially for GUI stuff 22:31:14 DeusExPikachu: there's a git mirror that you're free to use, or not. 22:31:43 luis: it's the best designed API I have ever seen, javascript or otherwise 22:31:51 yeah I just used it to make an updated code_swarm 22:32:01 DeusExPikachu: you can always work using git, have git produce patches, and send them to the mailing list 22:32:27 michaelw: http://node6.core.gen.tr:8080/localhost/library.core 22:32:27 I just remember asking the question like 5 months ago, I was just wondering if there was a change since then 22:32:58 michaelw: its fairly simple though, just to make comfortable. 22:33:13 it has a non blocking funcall for javascript continuations. 22:33:25 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:33:54 i hope it helps you, dont sure, but anyway jquery is out there. 22:33:57 v0|d: I didn't ask for this, perhaps luis or fusss? 22:34:08 michaelw: oh sorry. 22:35:33 fusss: the Yahoo one seems more complete. 22:35:53 luis: complete but slow as a dog and over engineered 22:36:10 YUI looks like C++ code and has to be backed in to the code 22:36:11 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:30 jquery is best for surgical, after-the-fact javascripting of a standard web app 22:37:08 i don't like writing javascript until I am done with the app itself, including all input validation; i.e. gracefully degrading use of js 22:37:32 fusss: what are you using on the CL side? 22:37:40 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 22:37:44 N instances of hunchentoot 22:38:05 sohail [n=sohail@69-165-148-98.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:38:21 fusss: and for the HTML generation? 22:38:25 cl-who 22:38:45 fusss: parenscript? 22:38:49 mine is probably the largest hunchentoot deployment in the world 22:38:57 nope, straight jquery. far far easier. 22:39:21 fusss: N instances on the same machine ? 22:39:55 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:39:59 for example, i have the server generate a little message line like "You have ~d new mesages"; I made that into a jquery dialog box with this line, $('#message-line').dialog(); :-) 22:40:06 -!- Coliveira__ [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:40:09 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 22:40:22 fe[nl]ix: on the same development machine, but it could be deployed across servers as well 22:40:45 fusss: how many you serve per day? 22:40:55 as soon as I can hack lighttpd to load-balance for server across network bounderies 22:41:23 fusss: why not use pound? 22:41:24 fusss: thats just a proxy pass. 22:41:28 *_3b* animates http://3bb.cc/tmp/assimp.ogv 22:41:30 v0|d: ok, i have two hunchetoot projects, one deployed and the other under construction. the deployed one just about average 5k uniques a day 22:41:34 *drewc* delivered with pound in similar situations 22:41:45 hm nice. 22:41:48 drewc: i am learning web development as I go 22:42:07 labs.core get 2.5k per day. 22:42:17 fusss: http://www.apsis.ch/pound/ 22:42:39 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:42:42 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:42:42 drewc: pjb recommended it to me and i took a look at it 22:42:51 _3b: is that with cl-opengl? 22:43:04 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 22:43:21 lighty has more stuff for limiting download limits and its more web app friendly 22:43:42 how so? 22:43:56 <_3b> luis: yes 22:44:08 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:44:11 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 22:44:20 drewc: for one, i have been reading their docs, including the dead-tree book and i am more comfortable with it 22:44:22 _3b: cool! 22:44:30 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 22:44:49 fusss: ok, fair enough 22:44:56 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:45:07 <_3b> luis: most of the hard work is done by assimp, for which i am working on bindings 22:45:08 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-68-127-147-53.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:45:22 drewc: but i have saved your business card for our upcoming "help me with pound" sweep stakes 22:45:36 nice. 22:45:47 you will win a few questions and a warm hug 22:45:51 fusss: heh, wfm :) 22:46:01 *drewc* likes hugs 22:46:11 drewc is learning haskell. 22:46:13 haha! 22:46:52 _3b: your development environment makes mine red with envy http://3bb.cc/tmp/emacs.png 22:47:23 brb 22:47:25 <_3b> fusss: i got rid of the annoying huge blue borders for the moment too :) 22:48:31 fusss: thanks for the jquery recomendation. I think I'll use it for my next web project. 22:50:49 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 22:50:59 coderdad_ [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 22:51:11 jquery is fun 22:51:24 gigamonkey: herep 22:51:27 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:51:58 http://importantshock.wordpress.com/2009/01/18/jquery-is-a-monad/ 22:53:13 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit ["reboot emacs"] 22:53:23 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-0-44.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:53:39 what other cool web stuff should I know about? 22:54:14 luis: javascript continuations? 22:54:28 luis: I guess you already know about Firedebug? 22:54:45 firebug ;-) 22:54:50 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-68-127-147-53.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:51 Assuming you mean Firebug, yes. 22:55:27 luis: look into the various "obscure" http headers, like X-Requested-with and E-Tag 22:56:18 luis: read up on web services, but ignore the w3c stuff; use REST as guidelines for non-secure resources 22:57:12 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 22:57:23 I would very interested in some sort of pre-made widget toolkit or something. I have done some pretty nifty GUIs in the past. But doing the same thing in HTML seems to require extensive CSS tweaking and some graphics editing, which throw me off. 22:57:45 luis: that's definetly why i code everything in javascript. 22:57:51 identity management, if you have users signing in and users have multiple roles, you will at some point need to implement RBAC; feel free to contact me clarify that mess since i wasted a good 3 weeks discovering the lack of magic there 22:58:05 rbac? hmm 22:58:19 lemuel [n=ltyphair@70.244.201.131] has joined #lisp 22:58:34 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-189.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:58:39 -!- omichael [n=user@64.34.179.211] has quit ["ERC Version 4.0 $Revision: 1.600 $ (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:59:01 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-56.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:59:15 -!- lemuel [n=ltyphair@70.244.201.131] has left #lisp 22:59:16 rbac is defnelity not a functional system. 22:59:19 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@modemcable067.226-21-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:59:22 i never use it. 22:59:25 luis: if you want to function without javascript, the easiest way to do that is to break you "handlers" into 3 parts. one part which reaches out to the backend, performs computations, or otherwise generates the rendered content. A handler for regular browser requests, and another for ajax requests. 22:59:31 -!- s0ber [i=pie@220-136-226-86.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:59:36 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 22:59:48 tau [n=Erdos@189.127.60.24] has joined #lisp 23:00:01 v0|d: fine grained access control; permission on classes as well as objects? you will need some sort of RBAC .. and there many many types of RBAC 23:00:01 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:00:22 v0|d: otherwise you will have fixed "roles" fixed into your application 23:00:55 I guess all I would need is a pre-made application.css that I could start with. Surely there must be something like that out there. :) 23:01:04 luis: the trick is to have on plain default CSS file that you generate your code for; later, you can get a designer to make it look better 23:01:12 hm 23:01:26 do you know about eric mayers reset css? 23:02:10 fusss: no budget for a designer, I'm afraid. 23:02:34 luis: you put on the designer hat after you finish the app. 23:02:43 -!- coderdad_ [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:02:49 -!- jte [n=JensTeic@p548EFDD2.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 23:02:51 that's what I'm trying to avoid. :) 23:03:00 just think about the generic layout; you typically have a header, footer, toolbar, container, navigation and content 23:03:05 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 23:03:43 But even if I did that, I wouldn't mind having a decent presentation throughout development like you get when using a regular GUI toolkit. 23:03:49 for forms, each form item should have a name and a label. contain your form elements within a fieldset. 23:04:30 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:24 luis: get ColorZilla; you will be able to hover over any page element you like and get the element name/id under the cursor; open up firebug and copy the CSS :-) 23:06:06 fusss: YUI seems to have a decent default CSS theme. 23:07:05 Aszarsha [n=aszarsha@91-164-146-148.rev.libertysurf.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:13 the most important thing is that your view code generates a nice CSSable html skeleton. try to macrofy everything that spits out html skeletons. 23:07:29 and by that i mean anything more sophisticated than a simple DIV, P or SPAN 23:07:55 that way you will only change the rendering code in one place, instead of over 50 files, like I am gonna have to do RSN 23:11:24 fusss: too much details. 23:11:28 i'm confused. 23:12:20 v0|d: i threw in the div, pan and span exception because legitimate "service" code returns that, to be stuffed into various on screen containers via ajax 23:12:43 see this http://www.core.gen.tr/style/common.css 23:12:53 it'll ease your pain a little bit. 23:13:21 i use it like a css library. 23:13:40 v0|d: there is really no way around the various types of menu; vertical, horizontal and tabbed. each has to have a separate class. 23:14:03 and you always need to divide the screen up for content 23:14:50 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-56.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:15:06 v0|d: your CSS is not very through, imo; it has no structure 23:15:40 fusss: see index.html. 23:15:48 fusss: it's a css library. 23:16:16 fusss: you use generic css classes to make layout. 23:16:38 fusss: so never have to return back to css and write a rule, but instead just open up an html file with css rules in mind. 23:16:57 it speeds up the process. 23:17:13 -!- saikat__ [n=saikat@adsl-68-127-147-53.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:18:12 fwiw, i told a web designer to view the source of my generated html to redesign the app. he came back with a CSS which was a drop in replacement for mine along with images and it was perfect. 23:18:38 fusss: i've never seen such a guy. 23:18:44 fusss: you'r too lucky. 23:19:44 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:19:58 fusss: i advise you to try common.css along with reset.css. 23:20:24 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 23:20:34 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:21:18 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-kpkzguhbzookryzq] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:21:19 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 23:21:50 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:23:03 for some real fun try to generate code that can be themed by the end user; think blogs :-) 23:23:45 fwiw - jquery ui seems to have a css framework which supports themes 23:25:13 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:45 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:27:01 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-212.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 23:27:28 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:27:29 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-212.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Client Quit] 23:28:41 Dawgmatix: indeed. That's pretty much what I'm looking for. 23:29:48 <_3b> luis: oh yeah, any further thoughts on that cl-opengl enum problem? 23:30:13 <_3b> i think that was the main thing i wanted to get done before putting my current tree up somewhere 23:30:39 _3b: I have been thinking on and off about it. I haven't come up with anything better than returning the numeric values. 23:31:03 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-212.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 23:31:13 <_3b> ok, any good names for a shortcut for converting enum names to numbers? 23:32:40 <_3b> i added an enum= function which takes care of the specific example, but that doesn't really generalize to stuff like CASE 23:32:58 _3b: I've been thinking about getting rid of the keywords and using constants instead. 23:33:07 <_3b> +foo+ style? 23:33:09 but I'm not sure that's a great idea. 23:33:24 naked constants maybe 23:34:47 omg, briatore quit f1 23:35:01 <_3b> are you thinking constants for arguments in addition to return values? 23:35:08 oh, but this would be for return values only. I'd still rather have (gl:clear :color-buffer) than (gl:clear gl:color-buffer) 23:35:27 sohail [n=sohail@69-165-148-98.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:35:40 <_3b> ok, since my tree makes use of the ability to have multiple namespaces for the args :) 23:36:24 i am having one of those "I LOVE LISP!" days :D 23:36:28 <_3b> i suppose that could work, though duplicating all of them could get a bit verbose, not sure if there is any easy way to detect which are valid return values or not 23:36:49 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-31-233-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:37:01 luis: is there a better way to use ub8 arrays with texture functions like tex-sub-image if i want to avoid copying ? 23:37:14 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-160-11.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 23:37:15 with-pixel-array copies the array 23:37:21 <_3b> keeping the enums also gives us a simple reverse mapping (good enough for debugging at least) 23:37:33 <_3b> which we would have to add by hand with constants 23:37:50 _3b: yeah, it's a bad idea. Nevermind. 23:37:50 i could pin it and pass the pointer but maybe there is something already ? 23:38:08 xristos: cffi's with-shared-byte-vector? 23:39:00 <_3b> with-pointer-to-vector-data you mean? or have i fallen behind 23:39:36 I did mention earlier today that I have to use CFFI's manual from time to time. :) 23:39:49 <_3b> did that ever get officially supported? 23:40:05 right. Not yet. 23:41:48 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 23:42:27 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-176-79.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:42:32 _3b: http://paste.lisp.org/display/79633#8 23:42:47 cmsimon [n=cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 23:43:07 c|mell [n=cmell@KD124213182069.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:45:11 <_3b> fe[nl]ix: that's even less portable than cffi:with-pointer-to-vector-data, isn't it? 23:45:43 <_3b> though i suppose i could probably find use cases where that would be more useful 23:46:29 saikat__ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:38 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:48:40 _3b: yes, although ccl, lispworks and allegro already have static vectors 23:48:46 so it wouldn't be that bad 23:49:30 it's on my TODO to actually write the code(and add it to cffi, perhaps) 23:50:58 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:52:46 -!- Aszarsha [n=aszarsha@91-164-146-148.rev.libertysurf.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:53:53 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483AB1F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:55:50 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:57:01 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-68-127-147-53.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:57:41 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:58:23 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp