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00:36:19 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:45 he usually gets 'em on euro-time, before i'm awake 00:38:02 ah 00:39:56 Xach: btw, there's a typo in my name at http://xach.livejournal.com/228063.html :-) 00:41:07 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:29 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:42:04 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-76-254-53-44.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:42:07 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 00:42:12 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:19 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-76-254-53-44.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:05 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1CCC0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 00:43:08 Yo Xach. 00:43:34 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:44:23 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:47:06 dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:16 -!- jao [n=jao@214.Red-88-6-174.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:56:03 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:56:52 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-74-113.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:00:22 -!- pepone [n=pepone@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit ["KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: 3437, sources date: 20090703, built on: 2009/09/09 21:03:17 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/"] 01:01:11 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:31 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 01:03:37 hellooo 01:03:45 arbscht: sorry :( i will fix 01:05:11 -!- bgs100 is now known as BGS100 01:07:24 scheme does not have packages does it? 01:07:48 OmniMancer: Not in the CL sense, as far as I know. 01:09:31 does it have any way of namespacing? 01:10:30 not R5RS scheme, but individual implementations have them 01:10:36 SLIB might even have something 01:11:31 Oh, and OmniMancer, about macros -- effectively all macros are "dynamic code generation", that's what they do. 01:12:11 I know 01:12:30 I mean ones that are more than code templates, possibly with some substitution 01:12:53 ones that do calculation and processing to produce the code that they return 01:13:36 well, I dunno, some of the best macros are the simple ones... 01:14:00 -!- BGS100 is now known as bgs100 01:14:04 if you can visualize what the final code looks like, it's just list wrangling to get there. 01:14:26 I mean something like a parser generator 01:14:39 it takes a grammar and produces tables and functions to perform parsing 01:15:21 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C0E2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:16:01 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-mskbqzsbssdsqntw] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:16:37 Xach: did you mention something about some personal code you have on top of Vecto for dealing with rectangles, etc. 01:16:40 -!- dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [No route to host] 01:17:23 OmniMancer: have you seen Bakers paper? http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/Prag-Parse.html 01:19:57 could one write all the tools that are normally external and generate source code, as macros in lisp? 01:19:58 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:20:59 You could, I don't know if you should. 01:21:24 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@76.104.220.73] has joined #lisp 01:22:08 OmniMancer: I don't see any reason why not. That's what macros are for: Creating DSLs that compile themselves down to executable code. 01:22:41 OmniMancer: http://labs.core.gen.tr/repos/core-server/src/streams/parser.lisp 01:22:43 a macro is basically designed to return a single form, not really several. You could easily nest DEFUNs etc in to a single lexical construct, if you like, but it's not really appropriate to use a single macro to create a large number of DEFUNs etc. 01:22:52 OmniMancer: and, http://labs.core.gen.tr/repos/core-server/src/streams/grammar.lisp 01:23:24 I have not seen many of these, could you point me to any? the only ones I can think of are parser genrators and the loop/iterate macro... 01:24:26 that link is using Henry's parser code 01:24:57 you can have the macro return a progn if absolutely necessary? 01:25:07 whartung: hentry's parsers do not know about monads. 01:25:32 it is actually an endofunctor 01:25:32 macros return a list, which is then evaluated. 01:25:49 v0|d: I can't even spell monad... :-) 01:25:57 whartung: you should be. 01:26:07 whartung: otherwise talking about macros doesnt make much sense to me. 01:26:24 macros grant us functors, thats all i know. 01:26:27 what relationship do you find between macros and monads? 01:26:38 in my opinion monads work best in haskell and are rather annoying in some other languages. 01:26:41 whartung: obviously there is no relation. 01:27:08 OmniMancer: its not a haskell thing, it a fp thing, remember? 01:27:25 do you think there should be a relationship? In something like common lisp? 01:27:36 whartung: you dont make sense. 01:28:16 you said I should understand monads to discuss macros, yet you say there's no relationship, so...I'm confused. 01:28:22 ok 01:28:22 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:28:27 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:54 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:54 macros grants us functor like hentry's parsers. 01:29:09 the resulting code runs over monads to make it obey fp rules. 01:29:13 get it whartung? 01:29:16 none 01:29:24 What do monads have to do with Lisp? 01:29:38 are you specifically talking about Henry's parser? or CL macros in general? 01:29:54 I only cite Henry's parser as an example of macros used to create, well, parsers... 01:29:56 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:30:14 whartung: i've implemented several functors like cl->javascript 01:30:28 or cps conversion endofunctor which is lisp->lisp 01:30:53 they all start with a macro but the rest is usual fp. 01:31:18 you should look into the repo, there are lots of examples i've implemented. 01:31:41 Makoryu: http://labs.core.gen.tr/repos/core-server/src/streams/streams.lisp this is my naive approach to IO monads in CL 01:31:45 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 01:31:58 actually i do not know about monads at the time of coding. 01:32:39 monads are essentially a hack to allow pure funtional code to have side effects 01:32:49 with a c ofcourse 01:33:05 generaly it doesnt have a 1-1 correspondance and i never tried to prove that it obeys monad laws but it made a lot sense to me. 01:33:43 OmniMancer: you dont make sense. 01:33:56 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 01:34:38 I spelled functional without its c 01:34:50 g'nite all 01:35:11 bbl 01:35:19 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:38:15 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:39:23 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-71-139-210-181.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [] 01:39:29 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:42 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 01:41:35 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:43:01 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 01:43:01 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-149-249.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:43:29 ramus` [n=ramus@99.23.143.102] has joined #lisp 01:45:11 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.198.232] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 01:46:05 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:46:23 i never understand people name category theory as "HACK" 01:48:28 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:49:32 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Client Quit] 01:52:50 i don't understand why people claim that any use of the terminology of category theory is category theory 01:53:26 it would be like claiming that lisp is based on number theory, because it has integers 01:54:41 -!- seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:54:58 gigamonkey pasted "Can someone mathematically literate help me out here" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86903 01:55:03 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.116.8] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:55:42 ilitirit: beacuse we lack definitions 01:56:52 gigamonkey, they are using least squares to fit the function to the data and epsilon is the residual error 01:58:45 gigamonkey: yeah 01:59:25 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.116.8] has joined #lisp 02:00:00 So, basically it's ignorable if you find values for the two 's that make the function fit the data or vice versa? 02:00:17 Xach: was that "yeah" to my earlier question about your private code? 02:01:36 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.116.8] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:02:19 gigamonkey, the magnitude of epsilon is related to how good the fit is (the smaller the better) -- if it's relatively large then of course you shouldn't just ignore it 02:03:18 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:25 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-50-127-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:27 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:04:47 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:04:47 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-243-157.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:04:47 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:04:47 -!- gigamonkey 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[Client Quit] 03:03:44 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:03:46 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-221-61.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:59 hello! 03:04:19 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-141-157-64-49.balt.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:04:42 hello. 03:04:45 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 03:05:27 chavo_ [n=user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:31 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@90.149.117.111] has joined #lisp 03:10:40 -!- Guest2801 [n=gautham_@122.167.28.68] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:10:59 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:12:21 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:59 -!- cads [n=max@c-24-30-105-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:14:40 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read 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04:05:11 -!- chris_bryant [n=chris_br@cpe-75-84-206-87.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:07:33 kssreeram_ [n=kssreera@122.174.66.50] has joined #lisp 04:07:40 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:07:43 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:36 -!- kssreeram_ [n=kssreera@122.174.66.50] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:09:07 kssreeram_ [n=kssreera@122.174.66.50] has joined #lisp 04:09:54 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:54 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:10:03 -!- nvoorhies_ is now known as nvoorhies 04:10:05 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ozihvhzezwhhezjy] has joined #lisp 04:16:49 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:21:08 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:19 -!- kssreeram [n=kssreera@122.174.132.15] has quit [Success] 04:25:29 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279634139.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 04:26:43 OmniMancer [i=ca24b342@gateway/web/freenode/x-uailghszvfsogrxe] has joined #lisp 04:26:46 kssreeram [n=kssreera@122.174.128.103] has joined #lisp 04:27:30 http://www.zogotounga.net/comp/squeak/lispkit.htm 04:27:49 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 04:28:17 -!- kssreeram_ [n=kssreera@122.174.66.50] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:29:48 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:29 why would someone make the Clisp one a lisp-1 when the kernel is a lisp-2... 04:32:41 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:48 OmniMancer: that is a bit weird. 04:36:38 it seems illogical to me 04:36:53 unless their implementation of lexical scope made them have to do it 04:37:02 the kernel is dynamically scoped :( 04:38:42 now we just have to convince the squeak people to implement lisp in their VM and then do small talk in lisp :P 04:39:54 why do people count scheme as not being lisp? 04:40:36 OmniMancer: politics. 04:40:43 culture wars. Take your pick. 04:40:51 Why do the Suni and Shia fight? 04:42:24 OmniMancer: maybe to show some kind of unity, since "Uncommon Lisp" might be misinterpreted? ;P 04:43:40 but scheme is a lisp.... 04:43:45 :( 04:44:29 Depends how you define Lisp, obviously. 04:44:42 *gigamonkey* happens to think Scheme *is* a Lisp. 04:46:14 well, it was originally presented as a lisp 04:46:33 hell, original lisp would be more uncommon due to lack of GC :D 04:51:23 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 04:51:32 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:51:49 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 04:51:51 morning 04:52:02 kssreeram_ [n=kssreera@122.174.135.150] has joined #lisp 04:52:31 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has joined #lisp 04:52:41 -!- kssreeram [n=kssreera@122.174.128.103] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:52:50 -!- kssreeram_ is now known as kssreeram 04:54:36 it uses a fully parenthesised syntax and has symbols and all the lispy things... 04:55:34 most languages have symbols 04:55:39 they're kind of hard to get by without 04:55:40 :P 04:57:21 KingNato [n=patno@84-217-3-184.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:45 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:00:53 but most languages dont have "symbols" 05:02:03 Ralith: actually, most older languages don't have symbols, iirc 05:02:04 In lisp, the empty list is also the false value, and evaluation order is specified damnit... get off my lawn! :D 05:02:14 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 05:02:51 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:03:02 Ralith: C for example, doesn't have symbols. purely functional CPP might have, though it executes in C monad ;-) 05:03:17 User214 [n=User@203-219-131-38.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:03:20 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:25 hey if you guys are bored try facebook zombies game:D - http://apps.facebook.com/zombies/links.php?r=719927515&nref=st 05:03:25 -!- User214 [n=User@203-219-131-38.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Client Quit] 05:04:33 *lnostdal* is playing with linux-2.6.31 this morning 05:05:18 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-225.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:06:08 it's a nice upgrade .. alt-tabbing around is actually faster .. hitting "compile" in slime starts at once after jumping to browser and messing around with gimp etc. :) 05:06:28 p_l: is not every meaningful string of characters in C a symbol? 05:06:37 it's just not a type 05:07:40 Ralith: depends on how you define symbol. There are no symbols at runtime in ANSI C, only pointers. Symbols might be externally used by linker, that's all 05:08:06 You cannot operate on symbols unless you write support for them yourself 05:08:07 who said we were talking about runtime 05:09:36 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-76-254-53-44.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:16:05 lsk2 [n=lsk2_4@122.116.5.215] has joined #lisp 05:17:42 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:18:17 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 05:19:11 -!- kssreeram [n=kssreera@122.174.135.150] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:19:26 kssreeram_ [n=kssreera@122.174.66.219] has joined #lisp 05:19:40 -!- kssreeram_ is now known as kssreeram 05:19:47 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:22:02 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 05:23:13 kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 05:23:38 we are talking of lisp symbols 05:23:46 is the evaluation order not defined for scheme? 05:24:38 and the empty lists truth or falsehood is not a big thing to vary across dialects 05:24:47 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 05:27:37 KingNato_ [n=patno@84-217-0-111.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:55 -!- kssreeram [n=kssreera@122.174.66.219] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:29:18 levy_ [n=levy@apn-94-44-12-185.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 05:29:22 Good morning everyone. 05:29:51 OmniMancer: I haven't looked at Scheme for a while, but it used to be the case that evaluation order was not defined. 05:30:08 KingNato__ [n=patno@84-217-0-188.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:32 hali 05:30:49 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A177B.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:30:51 levy_: hali to you too! 05:31:22 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp205.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 05:32:54 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit ["off"] 05:35:12 Is there any quick way to make SLIME's REPL automatically switch to the package in the currently loaded file? (typing ,i package-name each time I restart is a bit boring, however luckily it does remember the name of the last system used with ,l) 05:35:37 An undefined evaluation order is one of those things that sounds sensible until you make an implicit dependency on the ordering of side-effects of argument evaluation ... 05:36:02 indeed 05:36:13 it is fine for pure function languages 05:36:22 becuase they are devoid of side effects 05:36:34 redblue [i=star@ppp049.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 05:36:41 one could write a scheme that specifically has an annoying evaluation order 05:36:54 be back later 05:37:01 -!- OmniMancer [i=ca24b342@gateway/web/freenode/x-uailghszvfsogrxe] has quit ["Page closed"] 05:38:07 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:39:09 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:40:56 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-127-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:43:55 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:44:06 -!- KingNato__ [n=patno@84-217-0-188.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [] 05:44:53 -!- KingNato [n=patno@84-217-3-184.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:45:28 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 05:45:32 deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has joined #lisp 05:47:45 -!- KingNato_ [n=patno@84-217-0-111.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:47:46 Hey guys, I'm having a bit of a problem. Is there a cross implementation way of including the common lisp functions in a new package? At the moment I have to do (:use :ccl) for clozure common lisp. I would like to do something like: (:use :common-lisp) but that's not working. Any ideas? 05:51:08 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.52.247] has joined #lisp 05:51:14 Ogedei [n=user@e178207101.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 05:52:20 deylen, http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/11_aba.htm 05:53:52 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:54:03 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:16 levy_: Ah thankyou, ok that fixed it, I've been using (quit) to test, which is apparantly not in the common-lisp package. Thanks again :) 05:58:05 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:58:49 -!- deylen [n=deylen@62.249.247.182] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:01:29 hello 06:02:22 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:03:38 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6E84F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:14 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 06:08:14 -!- cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.124.145.172] has quit ["  ."] 06:09:37 aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has joined #lisp 06:11:12 OmniMancer [i=6f45f177@gateway/web/freenode/x-wiljsdoakhncvhbw] has joined #lisp 06:12:40 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ozihvhzezwhhezjy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:13:47 jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 06:17:11 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 06:24:32 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:27:50 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:28:50 DeVo [n=1@217.199.115.246] has joined #lisp 06:29:11 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 06:34:57 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 06:36:04 -!- DeVo [n=1@217.199.115.246] has left #lisp 06:43:34 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:46:09 good morning 06:47:09 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:09 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:47:41 ineiros [n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 06:48:31 morning! 06:49:53 envi_office2 [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 06:50:24 -!- jaws [n=jolyonwh@cb8faac9.atp.nicta.com.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:52:27 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:53:44 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 06:54:06 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:54:16 HG` [n=HG@85.8.75.88] has joined #lisp 06:56:00 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:57:04 -!- kerc [n=riise@31.84-49-151.nextgentel.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:57:32 kerc [n=riise@31.84-49-151.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:57:38 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:35 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 07:00:08 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 07:00:08 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:00:14 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 07:03:15 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:03:22 angerman [n=angerman@e252.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 07:03:41 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:37 ASau [n=user@77.246.231.213] has joined #lisp 07:07:03 -!- envi_office2 [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:07:55 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:08:29 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:10:27 envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 07:15:59 matley [n=matley@93.68.67.47] has joined #lisp 07:16:26 weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 07:18:19 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 07:18:55 -!- angerman [n=angerman@e252.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 07:20:46 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-45-167.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:20:57 angerman [n=angerman@e252.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 07:23:20 -!- OmniMancer [i=6f45f177@gateway/web/freenode/x-wiljsdoakhncvhbw] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 07:27:21 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 07:27:36 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 07:36:09 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:36:14 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:38:09 Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 07:38:34 -!- sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.utwente.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:39:20 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:47 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-176-48.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:40:05 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:40:17 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:50 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@76.254.53.44] has joined #lisp 07:48:47 does scheme have a defined evaluation behaviour? 07:53:39 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 07:56:54 -!- levy_ [n=levy@apn-94-44-12-185.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 08:00:34 USE-PACKAGE # causes name-conflicts in 08:00:34 # between the following symbols: 08:00:34 CL-PEREC:SET, COMMON-LISP:SET 08:00:34 [Condition of type NAME-CONFLICT] 08:00:36 salut 08:00:38 ^^^ what do I want to do here? 08:00:43 oops sorry, bad window 08:04:22 you don't use the set from one of those... 08:05:06 OmniMancer: obvious, but there are lots of such conflicts.. is there a way to mitigate all of them at once? 08:09:58 mishoo: avoid :USEing cl-perec. 08:10:44 mishoo: you call write CL-PEREC:SET instead of SET, when you want the one on CL-PEREC. 08:12:46 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:14:37 -!- angerman [n=angerman@e252.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 08:15:25 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 08:15:53 OmniMancer, I believe scheme (48?) has a spec analogous to ANSI for lisp 08:16:21 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:16:30 matimago: oh, I see.. that works, thanks 08:17:37 mishoo: Or you can also use :shadowing-import-from 08:21:32 Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A65932.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:38 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.231.213] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:22:31 mishoo, you need to shadowing-import #:set and #:time 08:23:01 benny [n=benny@i577A1A3C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:23:35 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@76.254.53.44] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:23:52 angerman [n=angerman@d156.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 08:24:06 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:11 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-lvxbhjzhczswermt] has joined #lisp 08:24:33 does scheme have anything like reader macros? 08:25:19 OmniMancer: not in the R5RS standard. But scheme implementations obviously could provide such a thing. 08:26:46 but not being standard it isn't portable... 08:28:06 Notice that you can always implement a portable reader macro system. 08:28:23 I mean, if you want to write a portable scheme application using them. 08:29:11 thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:26 Only you will have to implement, if you need them, functions such as load, read, etc, since the standard ones won't use your reader macro system. 08:29:41 yea... 08:31:02 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:12 rudi_ [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 08:32:52 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.52.247] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:33:23 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:23 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:35:33 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:35:40 good morning 08:36:29 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:37:17 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-3-187.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:40:52 ASau [n=user@host213-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 08:42:40 -!- aminorex1 [n=aminorex@24-179-163-72.dhcp.dlth.mn.charter.com] has left #lisp 08:43:22 billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-205-231-25-43.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 08:45:47 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:46:53 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.52.247] has joined #lisp 08:51:18 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:51:37 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:05 -!- ASau [n=user@host213-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:53:14 -!- matley [n=matley@93.68.67.47] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:53:26 ASau [n=user@host213-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 08:54:37 serichsen [n=svante@hmbg-4d06ed6d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:43 hello 08:55:08 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:55:28 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:45 hi 08:56:11 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:28 -!- lsk2 [n=lsk2_4@122.116.5.215] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:57:19 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-78-176.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:58:38 -!- thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:00:46 -!- ASau [n=user@host213-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:01:34 ASau [n=user@host213-231-msk.microtest.ru] has 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(Connection reset by peer)] 10:19:35 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 10:24:34 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:26:34 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 10:30:22 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483AAF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:30:44 -!- aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:31:45 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:33:48 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 10:35:16 is there any way to pass macros and expand them later? 10:36:35 what do you mean with "later"? 10:37:25 pass them in a similar manner to funtions and expand them at some later point in the function 10:38:03 that seems to contradict the concept 10:39:00 You could play around with &env 10:39:11 But it sounds like you're doing something you don't want really 10:39:53 -!- htk__ [n=htk___@95.65.241.13] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:39:57 yeah, that sounds weird, but you /can/ get "dynamic" macro expansion if your lisp support it. (LW/ACL do, at least) 10:40:11 I mean be able to pass a macro as a parameter? 10:40:38 <_3b> clha macro-function 10:40:42 <_3b> clhs macro-function 10:40:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_macro_.htm 10:40:46 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:42:28 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:49:21 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-143-33.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:49:35 angerman [n=angerman@d237.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 10:52:30 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:53:24 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:42 Does SLIME work with LispWorks? 10:54:17 sunwukong [n=vukung@catv-80-98-131-133.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:58:11 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-148.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 10:58:21 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-148.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 10:59:41 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/LWUG/html/lwuser-16.htm 11:00:34 Is there some declaration like the ignore declaration, but which doesn't warn if the variable gets used? 11:00:53 <_3b> ljames: ignorable 11:01:26 thanks, I'll look into that 11:03:58 hmm, strangely SBCL still warns about it (I'm trying to use something like PG's AAND which is implemented via AIFs, sometimes I do need the anaphoric variable, but not always) 11:04:11 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483AAF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:04:18 serichsen: Thanks! 11:04:40 what are the possible values for #+ ? 11:05:00 as googling #+ isn't exactly handy :x 11:05:05 <_3b> clhs #+ 11:05:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 11:06:18 <3 11:06:35 and is there a 'standard' for the values of OS's 11:06:52 I know it's not as I once bumped into a lib 11:06:56 <_3b> minion: trivial-features 11:06:57 trivial-features: trivial-features ensures consistent *FEATURES* across multiple Common Lisp implementations. http://www.cliki.net/trivial-features 11:07:04 that's the one :) 11:07:55 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:01 and finally: is there a generalized value for BSD ? 11:08:05 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181142206.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:08:18 or do I need to do (or freebsd openbsd netbsd pcbsd) 11:08:31 oh, it finally worked, it seems i just had to recompile the whole file 11:08:59 -!- angerman [n=angerman@d237.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 11:09:20 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:09:21 <_3b> looks like trivial-features uses :bsd 11:09:22 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:45 <_3b> apparently including darwin/osx as a *bsd 11:10:45 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 11:11:49 Hollystyles [n=chatzill@mail.weblogik.biz] has joined #lisp 11:12:31 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:12:41 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 11:13:46 <_3b> anyone have a preference for where to hyphenate glGetInteger64v? 11:14:08 *_3b* is leaning towards get-integer64-v 11:14:34 get-integer-64-v? 11:14:36 what does the v stand for? 11:14:42 Hi i'm having some trouble starting a REPL in emacs with slime and sbcl. I get the message that /cygdrive/c/cygwin/home/holly/slime/swank-loader.lisp doesn't exist but it does so I have no idea where to go from there. I'm a lisp noob. 11:14:51 <_3b> v stands for 'array of values' or something like that 11:15:16 then perhaps get-integer64v 11:15:18 <_3b> part of the type suffix scheme GL uses, but '64' doesn't really fit into it 11:15:42 <_3b> so far everything else has the type suffix as a separate block, so it should be -v 11:15:49 <_3b> not sure about the 64 though 11:16:13 <_3b> -64-v would be my next preference 11:16:44 <_3b> currently, the automatic parser is making -64v, but that would imply a 64 entry array parameter 11:16:45 I would speak it as a separate word, so I'd go for -64-v 11:17:04 ("it" being 64) 11:19:29 *_3b* wishes gl was more consistent in constructing names 11:21:32 Hollystyles: http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/windows.html as a pointer 11:21:39 but can't really help you on the windows part 11:21:44 afaik sbcl isn't that good under windows either 11:22:10 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:22:49 <_3b> Hollystyles: sounds like cygwin is confusing things 11:22:59 PissedNumlock: Thanks I'll take a look, also considering Clozure CL and maybe MCL 11:23:12 gio1234 [n=jhjhxh@81.95.167.108] has joined #lisp 11:23:56 <_3b> Hollystyles: if you want to stay with cygwin + sbcl, you might look at http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/article-drafts/sbcl-win32-slime-and-cygwin-emacs.txt 11:24:20 is there anybody from portugal? 11:26:05 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 11:26:09 _3b: Wow cheers. 11:26:15 gio1234: there's luis 11:26:26 -!- hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit ["leaving"] 11:26:57 _3b My gut feeling was cygwin paths but had no idea what 11:27:48 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:27:59 *_3b* uses msys/mingw on windows, so can't really help with cygwin details, beyond remembering that link :) 11:28:22 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 11:28:43 _3b: At the beggining of the doc you linked is some lisp to config slime about cygwin paths, what file do i need to put that in? 11:28:47 gio1234: Why do you care? 11:29:13 <_3b> Hollystyles: probably ~/.emacs 11:29:24 _3b: isnt it .emacs.el ? 11:29:25 _3b: right ok cheers 11:29:47 <_3b> PissedNumlock: i use ~/.emacs dunno if other options work too 11:29:51 PissedNumlock: well I have a .emacs and it's reading that when i start it so... 11:30:07 k, .emacs.el works as well :p 11:30:49 I think it may well be .el it's judt the latest batch of windows are trying to hide all that cruft 11:31:32 Can't have these lusers fiddlin' about with things like that :) 11:31:39 *insert obligatory don't use windows then here* 11:33:41 ruediger [n=ruediger@188-23-67-69.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 11:33:52 PissedNumlock: _3b: anyways thanks 11:35:01 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 11:35:29 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest8750 11:35:43 yw, although I didnt do much :p 11:36:55 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-lvxbhjzhczswermt] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:40:10 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:42:27 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:43:50 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-035-024.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:47:43 _3b: I wonder why slime doesn't moan when I use CLISP ? 11:48:00 <_3b> maybe you used a cygwin clisp? 11:49:14 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:49:57 _3b: Ah ok right. 11:52:19 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp049.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:55:30 *splittist* wonders if he should start getting excited about eclm now 11:55:49 amaron [n=amaron@93.86.161.198] has joined #lisp 12:00:03 sytse [i=sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 12:00:21 How would you set up a cl environment being able to produce a graph like in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_velocity? 12:01:09 <_3b> shouldn't be too hard with some combination of vecto and/or skippy 12:01:57 splittist: are you coming? 12:02:09 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:02:13 -!- Guest8750 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 12:02:22 no excitement for me, sadly 12:02:52 just the same old, boring eclm? 12:03:16 it's my first 12:04:47 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:05:28 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 12:05:47 kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:47 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:05:55 no, family obligations, so no excitement at eclm for me 12:06:09 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:08:07 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:08:58 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:11:55 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-55-140.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:12:07 pacopil [n=n@68.231.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:13:03 online boxing game http://www.kobox.org/kobox-fande-Nourine.html 12:13:04 -!- pacopil [n=n@68.231.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has left #lisp 12:17:43 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:19:03 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:19:20 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:22:34 -!- rudi_ [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has quit ["Client exciting"] 12:25:03 weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:26:26 after (require 'foo) in slime, it jumps to some compilation note 12:26:36 usually when there's a WARNING at least, but now it does it even without warnings 12:26:38 how do i disable it? 12:31:10 um 12:31:35 what is 'foo? 12:32:10 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:32:22 serichsen: the name of a system 12:32:29 Xach: funny 12:32:56 <_3b> Xach: don't you mean module? 12:33:16 <_3b> systemness of the args to require is implementation dependent 12:33:23 serichsen, some system. it doesn't have to be REQUIRE, just anything that generates green output 12:33:34 then the cursor jumps somewhere into the green output 12:33:54 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:15 _3b: doesn't everyone use sbcl now? 12:34:15 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:34:25 perhaps it has something to do with green threads? 12:34:27 non-conformists will be liquidated 12:34:29 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:54 I'm still using clisp. I'll probably use ecl in a project next year. 12:35:25 *Xach* puts pjb on his 'to liquidate' list 12:35:51 And now that clisp has threads, there's only a single reason why sbcl could be useful: speed. 12:35:53 <_3b> Xach: it is still a module on sbcl, who knows what random function are on *module-provider-functions* :) 12:35:57 If I was in a hurry... 12:36:00 I use clisp because lack of ports of sbcl :P 12:36:10 *Xach* puts _3b on th list, followed by '?' 12:36:47 "you are on the top of my black list" -- "oh, sorry *steps down*" 12:37:34 anyone used dandelion or cusp in eclipse? 12:38:28 jasko has used cusp 12:38:46 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483AAF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:40:26 I think I might play with that 12:40:41 mejja [n=user@c-3fb7e455.44-2195-74657210.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 12:40:54 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-127-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:15 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-168-78-251.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:43:52 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:45:05 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-140-215.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 12:48:22 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:37 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:41 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 12:48:50 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:49:03 fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 12:49:09 Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-55-140.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:51:35 -!- WhiteFlam [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [] 12:52:14 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:53:33 jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-65-188.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:56:28 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:56:59 serichsen: yes 12:57:50 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:58:41 -!- kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:58:46 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:08 I'm wondering about reflection in lisp, and I'd just like to know if there is a function/method that could list all the applicable methods on a class? 13:00:31 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 13:00:57 jtza8: compute-applicable-methods? 13:00:59 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest41027 13:01:10 *Xach* just used (apropos "applicable") to guess at that 13:02:14 jtza8: I think you might need some MOPery. 13:02:26 and non-standardry 13:02:58 Xach: compute-applicable-methods calculates applicable methods based on generic functions. 13:02:58 ah, i see. not just for a specific gf, eh? 13:03:35 yep 13:03:48 schme: :) 13:03:58 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:04:12 jtza8: You basically want.. if you have class FOO, then all methods that can be applied to it? amirite? 13:04:29 yep 13:04:45 It's a bit troublesome because we don't really store the methods in the class. 13:05:00 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-108-211.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:05:03 I know, but... 13:05:12 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 13:05:15 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-108-211.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 13:05:28 If there is an object, you need to have a way to tell what you can do with it. 13:05:35 specializer-direct-methods is almost what you want 13:05:35 nikodemus, memo from pkhuong: COPYFILE_DISABLE=true can be used to avoid resource fork files on OS X's tar. 13:06:05 jtza8: I think you need to think "if there is a method, you need to know which classes you can use it with" :) 13:06:25 hi nikodemus! 13:06:31 Xach: hi! 13:06:46 how would you suggest to make a lib for BSD and Linux? 2 seperate files and 1 file that provides the common interface? 13:07:02 just about to merge your :save-runtime-options patch 13:07:15 nikodemus: hooray 13:07:16 but I have some functions that are almost the same (except the name of the foreign function) and I dont like to turn those into 2 different functions 13:07:40 PissedNumlock pasted "example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86924 13:07:44 like that one 13:07:59 sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:59 schme: Yep, however, imagine something like a text-based rpg, and you have objects in the world which can perform actions based on their methods. In something like ruby, you'd be able to find the applicable methods and list them for that object, so the player would know what he could do to it. (OOP-ish concept) 13:09:45 jtza8: Yes.. I understand the issue. I just can't imagine up a nice way to do it :) 13:10:06 also not very familiar with ruby.. maybe it stores the methods in the classes? 13:10:07 PissedNumlock: that looks OK. what about an example where you actually need two very different functions? 13:10:51 serichsen: an example is getting the parent process, where linux only provides the pid and bsd a pointer to the proc structure 13:11:32 so if I provide the function parent-process I have to lookup the information of the parent under linux 13:11:37 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:11:44 while BSD gives me the info already 13:11:50 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:12:54 although I might do it in just one file to prevent me from forgetting a function 13:13:06 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:13:22 schme: basically, yep. I just thought there could be a conveniant way to do it in lisp too. It's probably there, now I'll just have to find it. :P 13:15:04 jtza8: What popped up in my brain is for your rpg maybe you want classes that actually store a list of methods applicable to them.. and have a metaclass for those and have defmethod insert stuff in that list. 13:15:11 that's my thinking right now. 13:15:16 PissedNumlock: I'd tend not to do separation based on "where it is done", but only on "what is done", but that's just my gut feeling 13:15:26 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-55-140.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:15:58 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:16:18 jtza8: it all gets a bit ugly ;) 13:17:33 after method on add-method or some such. 13:18:47 Ragnaroek_ [n=chatzill@p54A646C7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:38 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 13:19:50 jtza8: I think also maybe if you indeed *did* list all applicable methods you'd end up with a lot of junk you didn't really want in that list :) 13:24:10 jtza8: What you might actually want to do is have a slot with a list of stuff players can do to the object. ;) 13:24:45 Morning, everyone. 13:24:51 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:25:04 yo gigamonkey 13:25:05 hello gigamonkey 13:25:06 g'day gigamonkey 13:25:25 gigamonkey: i have a private library of higher-level stuff for vecto, yes. 13:25:42 Hope you guys all pre-ordered Coders at Work a while ago--looks like Amazon has jacked up the price. 13:26:07 Xach: any interest in letting me take a peek at it. I've started trying to clean up my charting code a bit. 13:26:24 gigamonkey: ok, sure 13:26:28 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 13:27:47 -!- ineiros [n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:30:33 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6B58C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 13:34:01 Danui [n=jin@dcsgrad6.anu.edu.au] has joined #lisp 13:36:10 -!- Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A65932.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:36:45 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 13:38:28 -!- Danui [n=jin@dcsgrad6.anu.edu.au] has left #lisp 13:39:26 jevw [n=jvanwink@75.138.213.210] has joined #lisp 13:41:15 -!- Hollystyles [n=chatzill@mail.weblogik.biz] has left #lisp 13:41:17 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:20 -!- gio1234 [n=jhjhxh@81.95.167.108] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:42:41 damn, the hotel room looked quite a bit less claustrophobic in the picture. 13:43:10 the fov on the lens was deceptive 13:43:46 yeah, I want a lens like that for my camera. For now, autostich does the trick some times. 13:43:51 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:43:53 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 13:44:26 schme: Did some reading, and yep, MOP seems to be the way to go... 13:44:48 Xach: Are you there as well? 13:44:57 sellout: Nope 13:45:04 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [] 13:45:31 Xach: glad I'm not the only one missing out ;) 13:46:41 luis: which hotel? 13:46:54 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-39-240.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:47:11 I thought all hotel rooms in Europe were tiny. 13:47:29 Except for the one crazy big room we got in Berlin once. 13:47:40 splittist: Arcade Hostel. 13:47:54 sellout: by and large, yes. 13:48:19 luis: Thanks. 13:50:07 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-143-33.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:50:12 Oh, as a preface to my next statement: I am now engaged to a (ex-)lisper :) 13:50:18 Also, I need to figure out if I'm buying the right subway tickets. Last time I was in germany I found myself being yelled by a lady that wanted me to paya 50 EUR fine. 13:51:18 -!- Guest41027 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 13:51:19 congratulations! 13:51:31 double-size your next european hotel room! 13:51:40 Now back to my statement: Not that I mind. My fiancée gets nervous when we go to Europe, because when I get back I want to throw out all our stuff and get a smaller place. 13:51:48 Xach: Danke :) 13:51:48 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:51:59 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:14 sellout: Indeed, congrats to you and best of luck to her! 13:52:15 luis: take a "tagesticket" for about 5 euros 13:52:39 serichsen: what's the "short journey" ticket good for? 13:52:55 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:15 luis: a single trip, short distance 13:53:17 luis: you get to move three stops on the same train 13:53:36 Hah, I came all the way from the airport with just that ticket. Nice. 13:53:54 luis: can you hear the helicopters, yet? 13:54:09 I live a bit outside (Bergedorf), and I usually take a tagesticket, which is cheaper than two single tickets 13:54:25 jtza8: Could be. Or you write yer own object system :) 13:54:38 Does CLISP support threads these days? 13:55:39 experimentally 13:55:59 and from what I hear, not yet very well 13:58:11 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:44 gio1234 [n=jhjhxh@94-43-22-145.dsl.utg.ge] has joined #lisp 13:58:45 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:00:16 angerman [n=angerman@129.187.98.249] has joined #lisp 14:00:17 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:01:04 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 14:01:35 gigamonkey: Would coroutines do? That is, asynchronous execution. 14:01:47 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:01:56 luis: i take it back. it seems that you can go from stellingen to landungsbruecken for 1,65 euro 14:02:46 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:19 serichsen: yeah, line S3. 14:04:02 luis: or S21 :) 14:05:35 serichsen: do you know where I can buy a mini-display to VGA adaptor other than Hamburg's Apple Store? (Which seems a bit far.) 14:08:59 jtza8: actually I was just wondering what Erik Winkels was talking about. 14:09:17 ah 14:10:05 coliv [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has joined #lisp 14:11:31 luis: no idea, sorry 14:12:45 serichsen: one last question, what's the 'single ticket' good for? 14:13:39 heh 14:14:37 *Xach* fixes the aerique import 14:14:53 luis: single trip 14:15:03 *jtza8* notes that if anyone cares, the concept of coroutines lies here: http://bit.ly/r1aXQ 14:16:01 someone with cvs expertise? 14:16:04 luis: that's the 1.65eb one 14:16:36 how do I checkout the exact same version from CVS as another checkout when there's no tag for that state 14:16:48 I guess it should be doable based on dates 14:16:49 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 14:16:55 but how do I find the correct date? 14:17:03 can you add a tag? 14:17:14 -!- ol3` [n=user@62.96.71.176] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:17:24 ol3` [n=user@62.96.71.176] has joined #lisp 14:17:31 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:17:58 -!- kssreeram [n=kssreera@61.247.251.10] has quit [] 14:19:09 Yaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy! Amazon has changed the Coders at Work button from "Pre-order" to "Add to Shopping Cart"!!!! 14:19:16 Sorry. Got a bit carried away. 14:19:39 *Xach* frantically reloads codersatwork.com waiting for the status update 14:19:45 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 105 (No buffer space available)] 14:20:01 out of stock! 14:20:40 jsnell, no I can't 14:20:54 all I have is a checkout 14:21:04 I must have pre-ordered in the nick of time 14:21:05 phf [n=user@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 14:21:06 it could as well be done with a tgz I know 14:21:17 but would be much simpler with cvs checkout -D ... 14:21:34 Xach: check now. 14:21:50 -!- angerman [n=angerman@129.187.98.249] has quit [] 14:22:01 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.52.247] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:22:30 gigamonkey: ah. i was thinking it might be switched to "Available for back-order now." 14:23:28 Bastards, they just switched it back. 14:23:30 Grrrr. 14:23:59 Hmmmm. Maybe the change just hasn't propogated to all their servers yet. 14:25:26 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.52.247] has joined #lisp 14:26:32 I wonder if Amazon processes pre-orders in the order they were placed. 14:26:49 *splittist* is worried that on Amazon.fr "people who bought C@W also bought 'Effective C++: 55 Specific Ways to Improve Your Programs and Designs" 14:27:27 -!- vy [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:27:36 Heh, Gmail's logo in Germany says "Google Mail". 14:28:08 trademark reasons 14:32:33 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 14:33:03 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 14:35:13 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:36:54 sellout- [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:10 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 14:42:29 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:42:50 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-36-251.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:43:34 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:44:42 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 14:44:50 KingNato_ [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 14:44:55 -!- KingNato_ [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:46:57 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:47:36 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:48:38 luis: yep, it does that in a few countries 14:48:51 (and some people end up with @googlemail.com addresses 14:53:27 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:53:53 -!- sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:53:53 -!- sellout- is now 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#lisp 16:40:45 haha, the MIT videos were encoded (i assume via A/V connection from VHS) by someone with a cellphone in their pocket. the noise overlays the speaker! 16:41:03 which videos? 16:41:14 http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/ 16:41:27 i'm on 4a 16:41:31 ok 16:41:43 Demosthenes: I'd bet not on the camera, but rather on the students... 16:41:55 These interferences can go several feet. 16:42:15 they used to have them in mpg format and better quality. 16:42:42 pjb: the movie was filmed in 1989. if they had a cell phone, it'd be the size of a briefcase 16:42:47 *Adlai* has arrived in Hamburg 16:42:47 -!- whartung [n=willh@207.38.40.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:43:04 Demosthenes: Right. Sorry for the noise. 16:43:23 pjb: which is why i postulate that when these movies were encoded to a newer format from analog, the wiring received phone interference 16:43:39 i'm not complaining, i noticed because i heard it on my headphones and thought my phone was doing it *laugh* 16:43:45 i'm enjoying the videos 16:44:36 Adlai: what's the weather like? 16:44:37 -!- angerman [n=angerman@a238.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 16:45:25 splittist: at the moment it's quite fine, but according to wunderground, it could get as cold as 6 celsius, and might rain on Sunday. 16:45:33 right now though it's beautiful. 16:45:50 whartung [n=willh@207.38.40.1] has joined #lisp 16:46:34 merus [n=merus@128.211.176.50] has joined #lisp 16:47:52 pjb: were you involved in the publishing? 16:48:05 Demosthenes: not at all. 16:48:36 ah, you apologized like you were involved ;] 16:48:48 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:54 i'd recommend these videos, they're fantastic. best explaination of macros yet 16:49:12 Demosthenes: no, that's just that I'd hope for more professionnalism from audio/video people. :-) 16:49:23 *splittist* rethinks his packing 16:49:36 *Adlai* actually found PCL's intro to macros very clear 16:49:43 *gigamonkey* smiles. 16:49:46 pjb: eh, i'm sure it was done by a student 16:50:06 hey, pcl's great... but book vs video ;] 16:50:12 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:50:28 there's a gigamonkey video too 16:50:32 really? where? 16:50:33 coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 16:50:36 gigamonkey: btw, about Lispbox: I haven't given up, I've just been busy... it was basically working when I last checked, though (CCL 1.3 + Emacs 23 on Windows) 16:50:53 Adlai: nice. 16:50:58 Demosthenes: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=448441135356213813 i think. 16:51:17 OMFG a google tech talk! 16:51:32 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:51:37 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:51:53 gigamonkey: once I get it working nicely again (I broke it a bit and haven't fixed that yet) I'll put all my changes in a single patch and send it to you for inclusion in the SVN repo. 16:53:41 Xach: awesome! i'm downloading nwo to watch 16:53:41 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181142206.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:54:18 Demosthenes: dan weinreb's google tech talk is also nice 16:54:45 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 16:54:57 sohail1 [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:55:19 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181142206.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:59:27 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:01 hm, video looks interesting. 17:00:05 *Adlai* downloads it too. 17:00:25 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] 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[n=dysinger@adsl-99-48-184-49.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:44 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181142206.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:18:58 -!- pepone [n=tio-33@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has left #lisp 17:19:04 pepone [n=tio-33@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 17:19:04 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:19:33 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["leaving"] 17:22:20 Hi , i´m new to lisp, and want to setup a small project from learn, in C++ i tipically structure projects in libraries and also use namespaces, to avoid name collisions, what are equivalent of libraries and namespaces in lisp 17:23:19 minion, tell pepone about xach-asdf 17:23:19 pepone: direct your attention towards xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 17:23:32 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-kkyhubifoscjsmfd] has joined #lisp 17:23:46 popone: Also, download a small project from http://common-lisp.net/ 17:23:59 <_3b> packages might do what you want from namespaces, asdf systems are the usual way to organize projects, as in xach's link 17:24:05 ... and see what the author does. 17:24:41 <_3b> (and just in case, we are talking about common lisp, other dialects may differ) 17:25:04 pepone: you can read practical common lisp too 17:25:33 -!- angerman [n=angerman@d021.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [] 17:25:42 <_3b> hah... just as i'm checking in the gl3.2 stuff, i noticed they seem to have updated the .spec files today :/ 17:26:24 *_3b* wonders if i should check in what i have or check the updates first 17:26:31 -!- omichael [n=user@64.34.179.211] has quit ["ERC Version 4.0 $Revision: 1.600 $ (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:27:30 thanks for the link minion, xristos ok i will read it 17:29:37 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-140-215.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by 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error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:28:51 -!- rread__ is now known as rread 18:29:09 DeusExPikachu [i=pikachu@anapnea.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:36 -!- gio123 [n=jhjhxh@94-43-22-145.dsl.utg.ge] has quit [] 18:31:04 -!- lawful_evil [n=g@w005.z209031033.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net] has left #lisp 18:31:08 -!- thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:32:44 *Xach* can feel the excitement building 18:34:52 *_3b* too, cl-opengl supports gl3.2 now! :) 18:34:58 <_3b> (at least on my machine) 18:36:53 *Xach* looks forward to a darcs pull 18:36:55 has anyone got a good freetype cffi lispy library in use? 18:37:24 <_3b> Xach: you might be disappointed then, my tree is in git :p 18:37:48 <_3b> also, last update seems to have broken it :/ 18:37:49 DeusExPikachu: i like zpb-ttf, but it doesn't really cover all the same ground. 18:38:43 yeah I'm being picky and only wanting freetype 18:39:20 What are you going to do with it? 18:39:53 *Xach* thought there was some mcclim stuff that used freetype, but doesn't know to what extent it's separable from mcclim 18:40:10 *_3b* restarts lisp, deletes .fasls, hopes that fixes things 18:41:11 <_3b> nope, that's annoying... 18:41:26 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:43:40 <_3b> ah, maybe it didn't break anything, it just confused it so it thought it was broken 18:45:21 <_3b> hmm, that may be annoying to do properly 18:45:29 <_3b> anyone around who knows about cffi enums? 18:46:42 _3b: yes 18:46:44 _3b: what exactly do you want to know? I'm learing about it right heh 18:46:54 s/right/right now/ 18:47:11 <_3b> wondering what a good way to handle a function that returns an enum, when there are duplicate values in the enum 18:47:19 *_3b* will paste, just a sec 18:48:15 tomppa^2 [n=tomppa@b27.kiulu.jyu.fi] has joined #lisp 18:49:01 -!- kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:49:10 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 18:50:03 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:23 _3b: from make-foreign-enum: (error "A foreign enum cannot contain duplicate keywords: ~S." 18:50:23 keyword) 18:50:56 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1A3C.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:51:00 _3b pasted "enums..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86945 18:51:16 _3b: have you looked into type translators? 18:51:39 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:51:43 Here's a neat little lisp game demo I found: http://www.daansystems.com/brokenvow/ . Sorry if it's old news or some other way irrelevant... 18:51:59 <_3b> fe[nl]ix: duplicate values, not keywords, but the duplicates get dropped in the reverse mapping 18:52:15 <_3b> DeusExPikachu: it is a semantic problem, not sure there is really a clean fix :/ 18:53:25 <_3b> tomppa^2: looks interesting 18:53:50 _3b: currently cffi doesn't detect duplicate values. foreign-enum-keyword returns the last keyword for that value 18:54:09 I have been playing with Horde3d and SBCL lately too, it is quite nice since it has a pure C interface 18:54:20 tomppa^2: that looks pretty cool. 18:54:54 LiamH: I was unable to download gsll from or.cz for a few hours, but the problem is gone now 18:55:08 of course most of the heavy lifting in that demo is probably done with C libraries and GPUs, neat anyway 18:55:09 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has joined #lisp 18:55:40 since we are on the topic of 3d engines, cl-opengl is great but it's a bit low level, doesn't load models and doesn't have solid text output, any suggestions for cpu efficient 3d engines? 18:55:40 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-170-201-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:55:52 <_3b> unfortunately, with all of the values mashed into one big enum as it currently is in cl-opengl, collapsing it to one keyword won't work very well :( 18:55:59 -!- zeroish [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:56:02 ... that interface with lisp of course or built in with it 18:56:06 DeusEx, Horde3d, Irrlicht & Ogre 18:56:29 Approximately in that order, regarding the difficulty with interfacing with them 18:56:33 I need to be more specific with cpu efficient, if nothing is happening, I don't want it looping 18:56:35 horde is very easy 18:57:17 last time I used irrlicht it used %100cpu even though the scene was not changing 18:57:18 <_3b> and fixing the problem from the cl-opengl side would probably be quite a bit of work (sorting ~3800 enums into separate enums, and assigning to the proper functions, and maintaining it all...) 18:57:30 fe[nl]ix: I know or.cz DNS was off the air a few days ago, but I haven't moved anything. 18:57:40 to intertface and comprehend, I mean. Hardware wise it is more demanding, so it's not probably too good if you are aiming for average casual gamer/laptop 18:58:04 <_3b> DeusExPikachu: most game oriented engines probably assume something is always happening, unless you sync to vertical retrace they will render as fast as possible 18:58:29 _3b: I guess that's why I've been working with cl-opengl directly for my last few apps 18:59:03 mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:08 timor1 [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:59:13 <_3b> DeusExPikachu: you might also look at something like openrm, i think balooga has bindings for that in progress 18:59:53 <_3b> less game oriented, so possibly more suited to optimizing for the case where nothing is happening 19:00:49 DeusExPikachu, Horde might be worth investigating, if you are familiar with CFFI it shouldn't take more than few hours to get something running. And it doesn't have any extra cruft in it, so it might be easier to adapt for non game use 19:02:00 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-55-140.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:02:00 <_3b> DeusExPikachu: also, on the level of using cl-opengl directly, there is cl-ftgl for text handling, it seemed to do extruded text pretty easily 19:02:42 *_3b* is planning to try to write bindingfs for assimp soon, so loading models might get easier soon too 19:03:08 is there really a library called "assimp"? 19:03:11 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:26 actually Horde3d doesn't dictate any specific io or gameloop mechanism, afaik it can be used with anything you want as long you can create an opengl context for it. Probably it would easily work with cl-opengl 19:03:28 <_3b> Xach: http://assimp.sourceforge.net/ 19:03:36 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:04:44 *_3b* can't think up any good names for bindings to live up to the name of the lib though 19:06:25 <_3b> anyone have opinions on whether requiring some sort of enum= function would be a reasonable solution to that code i pasted earlier? 19:06:27 _3b: that's a good find, I might try that out 19:06:30 groinpunch perhaps 19:07:57 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B58C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 19:08:03 _3b: grabass? 19:08:23 dlowe: Nice. 19:08:29 by the way, has anyone tried http://common-lisp.net/project/okra/ 19:08:36 <_3b> or requiring wrapping the :framebuffer-complete-ext in something to convert it to the enum value 19:08:46 p0a [n=user@athedsl-372964.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 19:08:47 tomppa^2: aerique has! 19:08:51 <_3b> tomppa^2: i ran the demo app, does that count? 19:09:18 I have the demos downloaded haven't tried them yet though 19:09:40 Personally I'm _very_ suspicious about writing bindings to c++ libraries 19:10:08 at least as long there isn't a reasonable user/developer base 19:10:09 *_3b* doesn't have a problem with it, as slong as someone else already wrote the c->c++ part 19:10:17 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B58C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:26 <_3b> yeah, preferably a c-c++ part that is used by other people 19:11:00 I like the way how ODE and Horde do it. Implement the internals in c++ or whatever but expose a pure C interface 19:11:17 *_3b* votes for just implementing in c 19:11:22 benny [n=benny@87.122.26.60] has joined #lisp 19:11:27 Hello if I'm writing a web forum and I have every forum action represented by a function operating on the database (not sql, something inlined), what do I have to do to transform it to a web app? 19:11:31 <_3b> if c isn't high enough level, c++ isn't either, so why bother :) 19:12:07 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-246-162.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 19:12:15 I have seen some funny stuff on the Ogre forums about Horde not beeing "OO enough" ;) 19:12:26 _3b: I completely agree 19:12:48 sorry if I'm rambling about horde. It is just nice to see some reasonably well designed library for a while 19:13:02 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:13:32 LiamH: I don't think it was a DNS issue. cloning would start, but get stuck at 3-4% then timeout 19:13:36 seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:03 p0a: You might want to look at weblocks or some such. 19:15:15 fe[nl]ix: yeah, when I tried to go to one of their web sites I got a no-such-domain-name error. And the problem was solved the same day it happened, so this must have been something different. I guess it would be useful to have some kind of mirror for these kinds of events. 19:16:07 LiamH: c-l.net has good support for git nowadays 19:16:58 fe[nl]ix: Good to know. When I tried last year I had some problems. 19:17:37 LiamH: copy the repo into /project/gsll/public_html/git/ and it will be detected by gitweb and git-daemon 19:18:40 fe[nl]ix: Since I'm set up already to push/pull repo.or.cz, can I have it just mirror that? 19:19:55 not at the moment 19:20:22 actually, yes 19:20:37 you can set up a cron job 19:22:56 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 19:23:11 OK 19:24:05 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:25:02 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:26:01 francogrex [n=user@91.177.133.85] has joined #lisp 19:27:25 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-246-162.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:27:52 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-246-162.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 19:29:02 SBCL version of Okra flocking demo seems to be ~3 times faster than the Clozure version. Interesting 19:29:32 tomppa^2: how did you test that? 19:29:46 fe[nl]ix: Done (not the cron yet though). Not showing up yet in what I think is the gitweb. 19:30:31 francogrex, I tried the prebuilt binaries. I get ~10 fps with CCL and ~30 with SBCL. That's on my shitty laptop 19:30:38 is there the ultimate "speed" test to see how fast an implementayion runs? 19:31:02 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 19:31:11 I would guess that very much depends on what you are doing 19:32:03 nah, there must be some simple straightforawd test 19:32:31 francogrex: must there be? 19:32:46 LiamH: the index gets updated every 15 minutes 19:32:53 IME on floating point heavy code (which I guess the flocking demo also is) SBCL is usually 3-10 faster than other implementations, if you are doing something else things might be different. 19:32:54 there is the ansi tests to check compliance... why wouldn't be something like it for speed? 19:33:14 rread_ [n=rread@98.234.219.222] has joined #lisp 19:33:14 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:33:14 <_3b> tomppa^2: yeah, i think i was getting around 4-5x faster on the sbcl version, but i think they were changed since then 19:33:16 fen[nl]ix: it's there http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=projects/gsll/gsll.git;a=summary 19:33:37 but it says "Unnamed repository; edit this file to name it for gitweb." 19:33:49 I'm not sure what "this file" is 19:33:50 rread [n=rread@98.234.219.222] has joined #lisp 19:33:51 -!- rread_ [n=rread@98.234.219.222] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:34:02 there is http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-bench/running.shtml but like I said, it depends on what you are doing. 19:34:14 Of course in general case SBCL is usually the fastest 19:34:32 Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has joined #lisp 19:34:33 LiamH: $proj/.git/description 19:34:43 thanks 19:34:49 or CMUCL, of course 19:35:24 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:35:33 I think a little while ago someone posted some code on comp.lang.lisp that was part of a general competition: that could be used to test speed 19:35:53 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 19:37:25 Would it be hard to write a macro that does the right thing for every file it is given? For instance, let's say (with-foo ("foo.txt" r) (mapcar #'princ r)) to print all the read lines of a text file 19:38:00 (with-foo ("foo.txt" (jpeg-header :width width :height height et cetera...) (body)) 19:38:18 I forgot a parenthesis in ...), so it should be ...)) 19:39:04 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@adsl-99-48-184-49.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [No route to host] 19:39:05 francogrex, with CL it is fairly easy to test your programs with different implementations, so the only way to get sure results is just to test see how it goes 19:39:22 It needs a file recognition function (TXT, BMP, JPG, SWF, others), like the unix utility 'file', and a unique way to treat arguments on every result 19:39:37 -!- Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has quit ["Balooga has no reason"] 19:40:36 Has such effort been done to unify the way different formats are handled? I'd guess that it is preferred to use a unique library for each format, and with its own unique functions and design. 19:42:43 tomppa^2: yes but i'm looking for a simple program (i think iteration would be ok for a start) to do the test 19:43:06 francogrex, it is interesting though that with my own benchmarks the fastest Scheme implementation that I found (Gambit-C) was about the same as CLisp, which is usually 2-5 slower than SBCL. That is with _my own benchmarks_. 19:43:39 francogrex, clever compiler could easily transform iteration into null operation 19:43:58 Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has joined #lisp 19:44:12 and in anyway, iteration barely tests anything relevant 19:46:04 p0a: Why not a function? 19:46:40 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit ["leaving"] 19:46:57 schme: WITH-*... because it binds symbols 19:47:02 before executing the body 19:47:15 -!- kssreeram [n=kssreera@122.174.66.219] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:47:17 skinnylover [n=skinnylo@195.238.188.231] has joined #lisp 19:47:25 cl-bench already has most of it covered, just see what it says 19:48:13 man, looking back, writing gentoo ebuilds for lisp packages are easy, but no doc is complete enough to get you all the way through, you need to be good at searching 19:48:21 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-186-246-225.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:28 tomppa^2: I think CLs design allows for more optimization than Scheme. The language is more rich therefore more components are closer to a low-level optimized implementation (since they're provided by the implementation) 19:48:35 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:36 these are probably old but might give some hint: http://www.cliki.net/Performance%20Benchmarks 19:49:24 I am new in lisp. There is an example in SICP about bank account and lexic scope with dispathcing function ,Is such dispathcing a normal technique for scheme and CL? 19:49:40 | CLOS/simple-instantiate [ 0.16] 82.43 13.24 663.62 69.45 19:49:55 p0a: Seems a bit of an odd thing.. What if one changes the files at runtime? 19:50:02 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-62-75-121.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:21 skinnylover: i don't find it very common in CL. CLOS is often used. 19:50:22 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 19:50:30 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:10 schme: Ah you're right, a macro can't do that. A function it is then. It can later be turned into a macro for aesthetic purposes only (if the function call looks ugly and/or can be beautified in certain cases) 19:51:44 p0a: Shouldn't be too hard to write though. Just call `file' ;) 19:52:00 schme: but my question applies, has anyone done that? Is there any interest? Imagine that you'd have to consult the documentation of a single function to parse/modify any file format. 19:52:19 schme: That's half the work, the other half would be to write the code that actually reads the content of each file format 19:52:37 I just did the ansi test for CCL is this possible: 407 out of 21699 total tests failed! 19:52:49 p0a: I don't know of any such thing. I haven't ever had the use for something.. never really even thought about it. But maybe if it was around I would use it. 19:53:10 that seems too much, especially that ecl and sbcl the rate of failure is 10 times less 19:53:25 p0a: I'm not sure using one function for all file formats is very usable.. Wouldn't you end up with a *heck* of a lot of parameters to that one function? 19:53:48 -!- Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has quit ["Balooga has no reason"] 19:54:02 schme: well, drakma does this too with HTTP-REQUEST, but I see the design to be well-fit for the task 19:55:03 schme: it's encouraging that you'd use it. I'd like to write this, but currently I need to study more about CL. It's something in my TODO list... 19:55:19 p0a: Right.. but different containers are used for very different stuff I'm thinking.. Imagine a function for accessing text files. You have your putchar and readchar. It's all good. It's the way text works. Now the same function for a .wav.. You don't even do the same type of operation on it. 19:55:25 francogrex: CCL uses a private fork of those tests. You can run them with (ccl::test-ccl). 19:55:30 p0a: *maybe* I'd use it. 19:55:48 schme: I'm still encouraged... maybe. :-P 19:56:01 p0a: Now add to this a blender 3d-model file. I want to do a whole different set of operations on that. 19:56:19 Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has joined #lisp 19:57:36 rme: are you sure? Error: Failed to check out test suite: While executing: CCL::ENSURE-TESTS-LOADED, in process listener(1). 19:57:51 plus what difference is it gonna make? 19:58:05 I prefer the original suite that was used on others 19:58:14 schme: you are right. these are difficulties that are unlikely to be solved without crumbling up the syntax of the function. When I'll try to write this, I'll find more about what can/can't be done 19:59:13 p0a: I've never used no drakma, but if it has one function for http-requests.. then that makes pretty much sense anyway. They're all in the same domain of things. 19:59:37 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 20:00:02 p0a: I'm looking at that HTTP-REQUEST now actually.. it has what.. 20 :key arguments? :) 20:00:21 schme: but it can be surprisingly simple to use and remember 20:00:44 Right.. because if you're into the whole web thing then you know these anyway. 20:01:08 But using the same function to handle every other random domain of junk.. seems a bit odd to me :) 20:02:38 francogrex: OK. I was just trying to point out that the CCL developers use a version of that test suite, but consider some of the tests to be bogus, and have added additional implementation-specific tests. 20:02:46 I'm not even sure why I wouldn't just want something cleaner for handling say midi files.. why would I even want the http stuff? (: 20:03:32 You're right, it's not that good of an idea 20:03:57 it would help some newbies who wanted to do certain basic operations but if you want to do serious work you'll probably end up reading the file format specification and using a tested library for it. 20:04:15 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 20:04:17 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:21 To me atleast it seems easier to use a library for some specific thing. (: 20:04:37 But if it was just one thing for all image formats. could work. 20:04:39 dunno. 20:04:48 no one likes images and webstuff anyway :P 20:05:28 boo 20:05:38 especially generating images for web! 20:05:43 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-127-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:05:51 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-27-74.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:06:15 schme: terrible! 20:08:13 What are some of the desirable features that CL doesn't have? What about continuations? lazy evaluation? etc 20:08:39 hectares and hectares of libraries 20:09:13 Ah 20:09:29 p0a: What everyone is wanting is some good way to play with jackd. 20:09:36 What about renaming the language to follow consistent rules? 20:09:49 I could care less about "prettiness" 20:10:03 we just want libraries (: 20:10:04 p0a: that would be a bad thing 20:10:06 schme: http://jackaudio.org/ ? 20:10:13 p0a: That's it yeah. 20:10:13 fe[nl]ix: why? 20:10:44 p0a: cognitive load of learning a bunch of new functions just because it doesn't fit someone's taste (it's all about taste), incompatibility with the libraries we -do- have. 20:10:48 p0a: you'd have manyn functions with very similar names which would make them difficult to memorize and tell apart 20:10:55 Is it C? I know C, and some CL... If I learn about FFIs I might be able to translate things 20:11:32 But isn't it a mistake that it wasn't done consistently in the first place? 20:11:41 p0a: libjack has a C interface, yes it does. But there are RT issues. 20:11:44 p0a: I think what CL probably needs most is more infrastructure, not so much fancy new naming schemes. 20:11:46 p0a: cffi is easy to learn and can prove very useful 20:12:00 p0a: that /is/ actually the main thing with CL. there are no rules, and you have to internalize the language to the extent that you can feel when you go down the right path. with proper intution, pretty much anything is possible. :) 20:12:14 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:27 hypno: "pretty much" is the problem ): 20:12:37 *schme* needs to learn better CL 20:12:44 schme: RT? 20:12:48 p0a: realtime- 20:12:56 *sykopomp* needs to get to work on infrastructure. 20:13:22 If the issues are in the C interface I can't fix it 20:13:39 p0a: That is not where the issues are :) 20:13:59 schme: isn't the issue with the callback stuff? 20:14:07 Then I'll take a look into CFFI now 20:14:32 p0a: CFFI is fantastic. Take a look at some simple C bindings for some libraries. 20:15:59 sykopomp: There is a callback issue, and there is a RT issue. I could duck the callback issue by writing some lil C thing and keep all the callbacks in there and have that talk to SBCL. But then there is the GC possibly mucking up the latency issue :) 20:16:28 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:16:38 schme: avoid consing at all costs! :D 20:16:41 hmm.. i think SCL at least can handle foreign code while gc:ing. 20:16:57 sykopomp: Or just turn off GC! 20:17:14 You know how, at least with the older lisp tutorials and books, there is a lot of talking about how easy it is to embed a language like Prolog directly in to CL 20:17:49 hypno: Ya but it's like this. jackd asks my C thingie for stuff to process.. this needs to request shit from SBCL.. and SBCL needs to generate me some audio. now what if SBCL is "busy"? 20:18:02 But for some reason I have a hard time finding an actually working an functioning prologish library for CL 20:18:05 schme: buffering? 20:18:32 pkhuong: I'm having no luck there :( I get too much latency after a while. It pops up to 5-6ms at times. 20:18:33 is the Xof version of PAIP the best free prolog there is? 20:18:40 schme: as long as you can fill and drain the buffers without taking to much time, you should be home free, no? :) 20:19:20 hypno: That is waht I'm hoping. Haven't worked out very well so far :) 20:20:41 buuut one of these days it'll all work out. 20:20:47 then we can toss puredata away :D 20:20:48 *p0a* is impressed already with CFFI 20:21:02 CFFI is strictly for libraries 20:21:11 ap5 (http://ap5.com/doc/ap5-man.html) looks interesting but it to need some massaging to get running on SBCL 20:21:18 *seems 20:21:20 or is it also to incorporate C code with CL code? 20:21:33 (For instance, if I need a computation done in C, and its value in CL) 20:21:42 yes, that's what it's for. 20:21:44 p0a: write C code, build library. load up with cffi. 20:21:57 oh, you mean inlining 20:22:05 ECL can do that 20:23:05 sykopomp: not really. just two different components of my project - a C .so file on unix and the .lisp file that loads it. I think that's fine, although inlining might be a better solution, it's not the most portable. 20:23:06 altough I'm not sure if inlining small C fragments is necessary if you have decent CL compiler 20:23:17 -!- antgreen` [n=user@bas2-toronto06-1177888317.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:23:27 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:23:33 gigamonk`: congrats on the bump. anything in particular accounting for it that you know of? 20:23:44 I remember reading that in some occasions CFFI becomes more complicated, something about structs, or unions... I don't remember, but as I read this document I'll no doubt encounter this 20:24:03 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:24:17 -!- seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:26:25 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.112.52] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:27:29 markmm [n=markmm@client-86-25-164-59.glw-bng-012.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:30:43 kroger [n=user@adsl-76-204-195-61.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:17 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229101042.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 20:37:14 p0a: if you're planning mixing C and Lisp i advise using ECL and the low level interfaces. it can do everything without any complications 20:38:34 Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-081-105.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 20:39:59 dysinger [n=dysinger@99.48.184.49] has joined #lisp 20:42:11 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 20:44:29 -!- Ogedei [n=user@e178207101.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:45:37 Is there a tutorial that clearly explains setf methods and their defgeneric declarations? I want to document a class, with different docstrings for the setter and the getter... is this even possible? PCL doesn't seem to even go into setf methods... 20:46:03 raptelan [n=Casey@c-68-49-132-34.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:21 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:47 <_3b> i don't think docstrings on methods are generally very accessible 20:46:50 thijso: (defmethod (setf foo) (value (bar class)) "documentation goes here for setf method) 20:46:55 _3b: SBCL keeps them 20:47:02 thijso: On Lisp does 20:47:08 and it's available for free online 20:47:34 _3b: (documentation (find-method '(foo)) t) 20:47:49 ah, right.. thanks 20:48:36 thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:44 well, actually I was looking to do something like (defgeneric bla ... (:documentation "for getter")) and (defgeneric (setf bla) ... (:documentation "for setter")) 20:48:47 thijso: readers and :writers and :accessors are simple sugar for methods... it's much better to explicitly DEFGENERIC and document the protocol rather than documenting slots... think in functions, not in objects :) 20:49:01 drewc: yeah, starting to see that 20:49:21 (and, trying to get nice docs through atdoc, which seems to mostly do a good job) 20:50:05 *drewc* has an argument that we don't need slots at all given methods and EQL specializers. GC would be tricky though. 20:50:20 manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6B58C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:29 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B58C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:51:23 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:33 drewc: it's amazing how well oo and function-level programming mix :) 20:52:46 does the term "function-level programming" have any interesting meaning, though? 20:52:48 what's that macrolet hack that lets you macroexpand macrolet macros? 20:52:53 drewc: and weak hash tables, I suppose? 20:53:01 Adlai: macroexpand-1 with the &environment. 20:53:17 cmm: mainly treating functions as objects, and using higher-order functions. 20:53:24 pkhuong: doesn't seem to make a difference. hmm. 20:53:36 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:53:37 Adlai: oh, you mean for a codewalker? 20:53:40 I'm probably "doing it wrong" 20:53:50 sykopomp: ah, you mean "functional programming" then 20:53:52 as opposed to 'functional programming', which I associate more with a style that worries more about getting rid of side effects, having referential transparency, etc. 20:53:52 drewc: hmm. i am not sure i follow. you want to describe objects on the basis of the specializers in the methods? or are you talking about some other type of slots not related to DEFCLASS? 20:53:56 pkhuong: nope, just for my interactive devolopment sanity 20:54:15 <_3b> Adlai: you need to define a macro to get the environment to pass to macroexpand 20:54:25 You'd typically (defmacro expand (form &environment env) `',(macroexpand-1 form env)). Then (macrolet ((foo ...)) (expand (foo ...))). 20:54:44 You can also just ask SLIME on recent enough SLIME & implementation. 20:55:08 ahhhhh stupid me, I wasn't backquoting the call to macroexpand-1 20:55:13 works now. thanks :) 20:55:15 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-39-240.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:55:20 cmm: it's just a term I found to be useful for distinguishing between conflicting definitions of FP. 20:55:46 the latest slime from cvs is broken for the latest sbcl on win32. 20:55:57 pkhuong: how recent a SLIME implementation? doesn't work on this one, and it's from 2009-08-31 20:56:07 Balooga: sbcl on win32 is broken 20:56:26 *sykopomp* cries about slime not having actual releases 20:56:29 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:56:37 p0a: SBCL/win32 works fine for me. 20:56:47 Balooga: does that mean it's not broken? 20:56:51 <_3b> has slime worked on sbcl/win32 at all recently? 20:57:05 _3b: Not for months. 20:57:21 pkhuong: wait, in your example you're still calling mex-1 at expansion-time... the version which currently seems to work for me is `(macroexpand-1 ,form ,env). Is one better than the other? 20:57:36 p0a: All the lispbuilder-sdl stuff works just fine on SBCL/win32. 20:57:37 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-43-186.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:57:38 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:57:51 Yours isn't standard compliant. The environment can't be used outside the dynamic extent of the call to the macro's expander. 20:58:48 ok, I'll go with your version then. Thanks. 20:59:42 <_3b> Balooga: ok, in that case you might try http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/new-serve-event.lisp , (load (compile-file ...)) that in ~/.swank.lisp and set swank:*communication-style* to :fd-handler 20:59:56 pkhuong: any idea why sbcl does not enable multithread by default? 21:00:09 <_3b> Balooga: that is what i used last time i was working on win32 21:00:16 -!- rread [n=rread@98.234.219.222] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:00:17 <_3b> leo2007: nobody implemented it 21:00:26 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:42 _3b: you mean enable it? 21:01:18 <_3b> leo2007: no implemented it, a lot of code needs modified or written 21:01:21 _3b: I'll try that. 21:01:42 Balooga: okay, so it's usable... as you see, even the devs themselves aren't bragging about their win32 port 21:01:42 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:45 http://sbcl.sourceforge.net/platform-table.html 21:01:48 "Port in progress" 21:01:54 _3b: i think he means on unixoid/x86 platforms. 21:02:07 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:02:09 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-081-105.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:02:09 leo2007: because threaded builds are less stable on many platforms. 21:02:23 p0a: It is quite usable, if you don't have a need for threads. 21:02:32 <_3b> leo2007: ah, sorry, i was confused, pkhuong is right 21:03:05 <_3b> p0a: sbcl win32 is 'useable', but has some problems that would make it a bad choice for things like deployment 21:03:20 <_3b> p0a: it also lacks some features compared to other platforms 21:03:38 ok. thanks for the info. 21:10:01 -!- kroger [n=user@adsl-76-204-195-61.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 21:10:02 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:10:25 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:48 hmmm.. apparently atdoc doesn't know how to do documentation for setf defgenerics.... 21:12:55 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-160-163-158.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:02 p0a: Clozure is also pretty nice for cross-platform stuff. Supports threading, and all that. 21:13:24 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:14:50 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-243-157.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:15:06 and it is quite a bit faster than SBCL too. At least runnig my stuff. 21:15:18 -!- tomppa^2 [n=tomppa@b27.kiulu.jyu.fi] has left #lisp 21:15:19 Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-081-105.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 21:15:39 certainly not on linux 21:15:54 but it compiles pretty fast, which is nice. 21:17:42 faure [n=moe@CPE001217e40caa-CM0018c0c09832.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:57 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 21:17:59 -!- phf` [n=user@host.icnfull.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:18:31 anyone here started off as a php coder then switched to Lisp? 21:19:08 knobo [n=user@216-55-160.100710.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 21:19:23 faure: i didn't start out as a php coder, but i did code php for a living at one point. 21:19:38 drewc: you poor thing :( 21:20:40 cool. I want to learn lisp and start using it for my projects instead of php, just wondering if anyone had some advice on the transition and how difficult it would be 21:21:09 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 21:21:10 sykopomp: heh ... it was horrible! I had to port a 50k+ line app from php3 to php4... 21:21:21 faure: forget everything you think you know 21:21:23 drewc: D: 21:21:39 that always starts them on the right foot, so encouraging too... 21:22:00 faure: approach lisp as if you've never learned another language, with no expectations as to how things are done. 21:22:06 faure: maybe you should take a look into scheme first and 'learn scheme in fixnum days' or some other newbie-friendly tutorial 21:22:15 is it possible to set a collection variable to nil during a loop? (loop for i in somelist if (some-condition i) (set-foo-to-nil) else collect i into foo)? 21:22:19 p0a: not necessary, I think. 21:22:34 Lisp is perfectly newbie-friendly :D 21:22:37 no, scheme just discourages people...he doesn't want to write sorting algorithms or object systems. 21:22:48 +1 whartung! 21:22:52 whartung: hey hey, writing object systems is fun! 21:23:00 so I can't really "dive in" and start using Lisp for my next web app? I should spend time with tutorials first? 21:23:07 knobo: what you wrote works the way it is I think. 21:23:15 minion: please tell faure about pcl 21:23:16 faure: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:23:28 faure: that book will get you started. In fact, it talks about web dev in lisp :) 21:23:28 faure: it depends really. I'd say 'no', having done just that myself and made a real mess of things. 21:23:31 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["WeeChat 0.3.0"] 21:23:34 yea, that's a good start. 21:23:50 faure: you can also take a look at hunchentoot once you've gone over PCL for a bit. 21:23:57 cool, thanks for the advice everyone 21:24:01 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 21:24:03 Mind, I'm not against people writing "PHP (Fortran, COBOL, whatever) In Lisp" to learn lisp. 21:24:05 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:19 *drewc* went from perl/php straight to UCW and got very lost along the way. 21:24:44 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-226-101.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:24:49 whartung: are they really learning lisp at that point, or just another syntax for the concepts they know? 21:25:02 p0a: no it does not. 21:25:05 They're learning syntax, and operations. 21:25:10 which is half the battle 21:25:55 drewc: how many weeks did it take you before you started "thinking" in lisp and not just using lisp syntax for php based concepts? 21:25:56 (loop for i in (list 1 2 3 4 5) if (evenp i) do (setf foo nil) else collect i into foo finally (return foo)) -> (1 3 5) 21:26:03 I'd rather have some bastardized PHP port in Lisp than someone walking away saying "I can't do web apps with just CAR and CDR" 21:26:08 faure: don't time it 21:26:10 faure: just do it. 21:26:12 knobo: okay, there you go. 21:26:29 go read PCL, and don't worry about it. You'll get it. When you do, you'll explode with rainbows and shit. 21:26:31 PCL is a good start thos. 21:26:33 yea 21:26:49 p0a: you are a troll 21:26:55 putting a deadline on being comfortable with lisp won't get you anywhere. 21:27:27 ok, thanks. I guess only reason I am making time a factor is because I have to do some web work for a client for the next few months, and I was excited to start using Lisp immediately (or trying to). But that may be premature 21:27:30 knobo: you are an idiot 21:27:41 http://www.swiss.ai.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/ 21:27:47 faure: do it for the next client. 21:27:50 stick to php for now :P 21:27:58 video lectures from mit scheme course 21:28:06 cool 21:28:10 markmm: scheme is not lisp (thankfully) 21:28:16 knobo: can you please repeat the question. I was away *maybe* i can help 21:28:50 faure: i never did php-in-lisp, as php was not the only language i knew at the time. However, it took about 6 months to a year before my code stopped looking like crap. 21:29:14 francogrex: is it possible to set a collection variable to nil during a loop? (loop for i in somelist if (some-condition i) (set-foo-to-nil) else collect i into foo)? 21:29:15 so its more of a algol language 21:29:17 ? 21:29:25 knobo: (remove-if 'evenp '(1 2 3 4 5)) :) 21:29:33 markmm: no, it's just different. 21:29:44 my previous example should return just (5) 21:29:52 i'm very confused on whether to start with scheme or common lisp 21:29:57 CL 21:30:03 Here's why. 21:30:07 knobo: you need to setf foo to nil. That's all, your solution that worked is the "right" on. 21:30:08 knobo: what do you -want- to do? 21:30:09 *one 21:30:10 The CLs are more consistent with each other. 21:30:14 sykopomp: read his original question 21:30:25 Scheme CAN do what you want, but it's a specific implementation of the system. 21:30:25 Adlai: I can't even find it. 21:30:34 is it possible to set a collection variable to nil during a loop? (loop for i in somelist if 21:30:34 (some-condition i) (set-foo-to-nil) else collect i into foo)? [02:22:06] 21:30:38 MOST CLs can do what you want, so you have a broader choice of implementations 21:30:46 Adlai: yes. I want to know what he -wants- to do. 21:30:49 and there's more "stock" stuff in CL than in Scheme. 21:31:00 not how he's trying to achieve it. 21:31:03 sykopomp: "set a collection variable to nil during a loop" 21:31:13 So, the "any random doc" you find on the web will be more applicable in CL than in some arbitrary Scheme implementation. 21:31:15 faure: start with CL, if only because this channel is extremely helpful and a lot of us do webapps 21:31:16 still those lectures are very good 21:31:19 Adlai: that's a means to an end. What's the end? 21:31:20 Adlai: he's expecting a different result, so obviously that's not wahat he wanted 21:31:22 do (setf foo nil) has no effect on the end result 21:31:32 sykopomp: I don't know, but it's near! 21:31:37 knobo: what do you want to do? 21:31:37 cool, thanks everyone. This is very helpful 21:31:41 knobo: i'm pretty sure you can't do that. 21:31:49 faure: go read. Buy the book. It's definitely worth having on the shelf. 21:31:59 yea, read PCl 21:32:07 then come back. 21:32:23 ok. Ordering it on amazon right now. 21:32:29 Ralith_ [n=ralith@d142-058-088-074.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 21:32:47 faure: I'd encourage you to find an itch to scratch with CL. Don't worry if you write crappy code, because you can (and should) plan to throw it away once you know better. 21:32:48 drewc: That 21:32:53 because folks, especially today, may well be interested in the "Beauty" and other "intangibles" of a langage, but to start off they want familiarty and to be productive. PCL helps a lot with that, you can pick up the intangibles later 21:33:26 drewc: That is what I was starting to thing also. 21:33:49 knobo: (iter (for i in (list 1 2 3 4 5)) (if (evenp i) (setf foo nil) (collect i into foo)) (finally (return foo))) 21:34:01 question to those of you using CL for web apps: do you use much javascript for frontend? 21:34:01 (5) 21:34:10 minion: parenscript for faure 21:34:11 faure: please look at parenscript: Parenscript is a translator from a small Lispy language to JavaScript. http://www.cliki.net/parenscript 21:34:15 drewc: you're wrong here 21:34:27 knobo; use iterate and not loop 21:34:54 francogrex: why? 21:35:00 whartung: k, I will start with CL 21:35:02 francogrex: I'm starting to see more and more that loop is limited and stupid. 21:35:06 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-081-105.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:35:25 francogrex: you sure? 21:35:26 knobo: loop is good for some things. I prefer using function-level stuff as much as possible. 21:35:33 knobo: if you think LOOP is stupid, what's your opinion of C's for, for instance? 21:35:34 for everything else, LOOP is good enough for me. 21:35:48 and that's a hell of a lot better than having a huge bullshit dependency 21:35:49 *drewc* goes hyperspec huntin 21:35:51 (iter (for i in (list 1 2 3 4 5 12 7 3)) (if (evenp i) (setf foo nil) (collect i into foo)) (finally (return foo))) 21:35:59 > (7 3) 21:36:00 p0a: what is C's? 21:36:12 knobo: what is what is? 21:36:13 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 21:36:18 knobo: for(;;){} 21:36:26 drewc: pretty sure 21:36:35 Is there a standard idiom for mapping over some lists until all elements are exhausted? (as opposed to how map stops when any list is exhausted) 21:36:49 sykopomp: aha.. its not functional 21:36:57 sykopomp: like loop 21:37:04 knobo: so? It's a loop. 21:37:05 faure, i use javascript a bit .. but not for much real code; just "output" or i/o, or something .. i wrap jquery functions on the server (lisp) end and concatenate the results and send it to the client .. widgets are just calls to many of these wrapped jquery functions 21:37:07 clhs loop 21:37:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm 21:37:12 Adlai: and what will the result of (your-map #'- '(1 2 3) '(2 3)) be? 21:37:24 Adlai: (-1 -1 -3)? 21:37:35 knobo: is what I presented was what you wanted? 21:37:52 p0a: a type error, along with the option to provide a default to use rather than nil when a list is exhausted 21:37:59 -!- timor1 [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [No route to host] 21:38:15 http://www.swiss.ai.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/ watch and understand 21:38:25 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:38:37 Adlai: sorry, I don't understand you, so it's unlikely I know the answer to your original question 21:38:52 Adlai: can you think of a situation where you want to blindly map a function into multiple sequences of variable length (without necessarily being aware of their lengths), where you would want some kind of behavior? 21:39:16 lnostdal: thanks, that is all I plan to do as well. I find jquery does the job for any client end output that I need 21:39:24 faure, (actually; i wrap _calls_ to jquery functions..) 21:39:34 *special behavior 21:39:49 sykopomp: your question is pretty vague... anyways, this is out of curiosity. 21:39:55 -!- hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit ["leaving"] 21:40:18 sykopomp: user-input? 21:40:36 Adlai: I think that lopsided lists, in general, are a bit semantically weird when you're using MAP and company. If you want more fine-tuned behavior, I think that's what LOOP is for. 21:40:36 (actually the hyphen there is wrong) 21:40:47 p0a: specific situation. 21:41:08 francogrex: what I wanted was to know if loop had any construct to set a "simple-var" (as the hyperspec calls it) to nil 21:41:35 knobo: no. PG on On Lisp implements such an utility 21:41:58 knobo: it doesn't seem so. But will you use iterate instead now that you know it does what you want? 21:42:01 -!- mscala [n=user@library2.wtamu.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:42:17 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 21:42:19 francogrex: dependency noise! 21:42:22 bloat! 21:42:32 but if it floats your bloat... 21:42:32 ITERATE is no bloat. it's sanity. 21:42:41 francogrex: no, I'll make a nice recursive function. 21:42:44 sykopomp: what are you talking about? 21:42:47 I prefer LOOP and insanity :-) 21:42:53 everyone should depend on INSANITY. 21:42:56 schme: if you like non-portable codewalkers, sure ;) 21:42:57 proq` [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 21:43:12 drewc: I do! 21:43:15 drewc: are you saying ITERATE is non-portable? 21:43:28 I've found very little utility for anything but very simple loops. 21:43:30 iterate seemed nice, but i recall it doing "weird stuff" with packages 21:43:32 or, maybe I'll use "with foo = nil", then I can play as much as I want with the variable 21:43:43 and iterate is fine, but I don't think it's that big a deal. 21:43:46 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:43:46 knobo: what's that known proverb about trying to reinvent something that already exists... hmmm me thinks hard 21:43:53 and I actually appreciate how nice and readable basic loops are. 21:44:01 lisp is for the top 5% of programmers, it will never be as popular as C, C++, Java etc as most people will drive a regular car rather than a F1 custom built car 21:44:11 knobo: on a quick read of the hyperspec, FOO should be bound as if with WITH, so it should work i suppose. 21:44:15 markmm: I wouldn't say it's for top programmers, but whatever. 21:44:17 sykopomp: I bet that some people appreciate how nice and verbose Java and COBOL are, too 21:44:36 sykopomp: what are the 'top programmers' anyway? 21:44:39 markmm: F1 custom built car seems pretty dumb to drive. Uses a lot of fuel, you can't really load much in it... 21:44:48 -!- proq` is now known as proq 21:45:15 p0a: ponies. 21:45:22 drewc: but, it did not, as you can se from my example above 21:45:24 ponies are great. 21:45:29 p0a: it's not trivially portable. 21:45:33 schme: I like ponies too. 21:45:47 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:45:48 knobo: which example.. the one where you left out DO or am i missing something? 21:45:50 a pony once bit my sister, she was trying to carve her name on it with a toothbrush. 21:45:52 drewc: I'd imagine such an utility can be implemented within the language in a portable manner 21:45:55 sykopomp: I've been wanting to buy a pony but Lisa here says she's "allergic". pffft! 21:45:56 21:45:58 drewc: (loop for i in (list 1 2 3 4 5) if (evenp i) do (setf foo nil) else 21:45:58 collect i into foo finally (return foo)) -> (1 3 5) 21:46:03 of course maybe you are right and some problems that it poses have no standard solution 21:46:05 21:46:07 schme, ok bad anolgy, why then is lisp a marginal programmig lang? 21:46:08 21:46:13 let's not talk about loop vs iterate anymore though, I have a more compelling lispfight 21:46:15 -!- sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 21:46:23 OUT vs FORMAT! Which one's uglier? Go! 21:46:25 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:46:35 markmm: I don't know. People tell me "X is backed by money" etc. 21:46:38 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@99.48.184.49] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:46:39 FORMAT is great 21:46:42 sykopomp: out? 21:46:45 francogrex: lies! 21:46:51 p0a: brought to you by The YTools Guy! 21:46:55 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:57 format isn't turing complete! 21:47:16 and OUT? 21:47:18 drewc: could it be a bug in sbcl? 21:47:18 *Adlai* wants a turing-complete format language in CLtL3 21:47:24 markmm: I guess it's a bit like "why is linux a marginal desktop OS" 21:47:36 its all about the libraries 21:47:49 markmm: AI winter didn't help, from what I'm told. 21:47:52 knobo: it works for me.. what is the error? 21:48:12 it returns (1 3 5), and not just (5) 21:48:29 drewc: please post the code 21:48:31 markmm: It is funny. I see forthers going "forth is for the top 5% ..." "we lack libraries.." :) 21:48:38 knobo: that's because you can't modify foo because loop is *collecting into* foo 21:48:44 its not always a negative to be marginal, it may be that only a certain percentage of people understand 21:49:03 knobo: do you realize that you can do a different kind of loop right? 21:49:05 markmm: Or maybe we're the stupid ones that don't understand? 21:49:17 knobo: use push/nreverse 21:49:24 or as I like to call it 21:49:27 push'n'reverse 21:49:37 I think the only thing about iterate that I appreciate is its hash-table iteration interface. 21:49:43 other than that, it's not all that interesting. 21:50:04 knobo: (loop for i in (reverse list) until (evenp i) collect i) 21:50:10 sure you can do a lot of things with Do Dolist etc... but why resist using something already available and VERY easy to use is beyond me 21:50:28 francogrex: dependency bloat, ofc. 21:50:38 :D 21:50:40 knobo: of course the results are in reverse as well... 21:50:41 in my opinion C#, Java, Basic etc is written for the average dumb programmer 21:50:45 sykopomp: there is no such thing 21:51:06 francogrex: maybe when we have a CPAN-like thing that doesn't suck balls, it'll be trivial to pull in 90% of cliki just to run an irc bot. 21:51:30 I gotta go. bye 21:51:32 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-372964.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 21:51:42 thank god 21:51:49 markmm: It seems that # and Java programmers find work easily, and get good money. Lispers do not seem to have it as easy. Maybe lisp is for the dumb? 21:52:00 sykopomp: another thing you'd appreciate aboiut iterate is that it's extensible 21:52:01 C# 21:52:11 francogrex: I also actually happen to like loop for the purposes I use it for. I'm sure iterate is great and all when you want to write enormous, convoluted loops. 21:52:23 personally, I aim for simpler code that doesn't involve nasty, complex loops. 21:52:51 sykopomp: iterate is hardly bloat, given how many projects use it 21:52:57 it's almost sure to be used already 21:52:58 I am a well paid C# progammer but the is it a bastardization of Java C++ and now trying to be lisp 21:52:58 schme: lisp isn't for the dump, but it's only the dumb who get stuck with it. 21:53:12 sykopomp: I use loop as well; i use both, it's not like chossing to marry two women. You CAN use both without feeling guilty 21:53:14 mathrick: I know! I had to spend an hour rewriting most of a project to get rid of defclass-star and iterate as dependencies. 21:53:17 Lisp is marginal because it's a Lisp. 21:53:20 it was a ridiculously simple low-level lib 21:53:22 Adlai: :) 21:53:25 it's crazy, I tell you. 21:53:55 sykopomp: Why do you need to get rid of iterate dependency? 21:54:05 francogrex: some people don't feel guilty marrying two women and you might offend their culture with your statements so watch out -- the PC Police is about. 21:54:15 sykopomp: I don't see why you'd want to remove iterate, again. It doesn't even have any dependencies 21:54:19 Coliveira [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has joined #lisp 21:54:25 microsoft are they source of a lot of the shit in computing 21:54:35 and it's not for "enormous, convoluted loops" 21:54:40 it's just LOOP that doesn't suck 21:54:42 mathrick: iterate is a dependency. For a relatively small library, I don't see the point. 21:54:49 markmm: Microsoft seem to be backing a lot of nice things in computing.. making hardware cheap for the masses.. ocaml.. F# 21:54:57 sykopomp: not putting up with the stupidity of LOOP is enough of a reason 21:55:18 schme: .net... visual basic... yavm... 21:55:20 ok guys; time to go to sleep; but first time to go to toilet 21:55:27 Is not like iterate will eat up gigabytes of RAM :) 21:55:40 mathrick: I don't put up with loop's stupidity, since I've yet to find something that is too hard to express better in other ways that I can't do with *simple* loops. 21:55:41 it doesn't matter whether it's a big or small library, iterate is so common it doesn't introduce any *new* deps in anyone's system, and it's 100x nicer to read than LOOP 21:55:46 Adlai: sure thing. there's a lot of shit. (: 21:55:51 sykopomp: the syntax 21:55:55 mathrick: I love it! 21:56:00 I don't 21:56:02 yavm = yet another virtual machine 21:56:09 aka CLR 21:56:15 (loop for i in '(1 2 3 4) do (print i)) It's so readable! 21:56:17 From what I have seen it is nicer than java :) 21:56:20 jvm 21:56:20 schme, what? backing is not having a research lab with some ideas that have been around for decades 21:56:43 schme: probably, look at the difference between the flagship languages of the JVM and the CLR -- Java and C#... 21:56:53 sykopomp: iterate's is just as readable, 100x easier to indent properly, extensible and doesn't introduce stupid no-op noise like DO 21:56:55 markmm: funding ocaml == backing 21:57:07 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-26-153.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:57:07 microsoft is about 2 things Windows and Office 21:57:08 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.177.133.85] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:57:12 wait, it's not just as readable. It's way *more* readable 21:57:14 hey office is great. 21:57:16 mathrick: but it hasn't been a problem for me at all, so why do I have to put up with yet-another-dependency? 21:57:19 markmm: you forgot the money 21:57:21 because the scope is obvious 21:57:23 mathrick: I disagree 21:57:36 Adlai, where does it come from 21:57:37 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-62-75-121.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:57:49 the rest is side projects 21:57:51 markmm: I wish I knew! 21:57:58 people like windows. 21:58:00 sykopomp: because rewriting everything is a dumb use of one's time and I'd estimate that 30-40% of code at least uses iterate? 21:58:03 ...Windows, office, MSN, Sql Server, Sharepoint, ... 21:58:06 fe[nl]ix: with? 21:58:20 mathrick: readable code is code that is easy to read out loud without sounding like an ape in an epilepsy attack -- ie, english words and no line noise 21:58:23 mathrick: "It's way *more* readable" 21:58:34 mathrick: but with 1 hour of time, I saved myself countless millenia of unwanted user groaning and compile time :D 21:58:35 I think loop is pretty good at being "readable" 21:58:35 tada! 21:58:38 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:58:50 however, it might be too readable. 21:58:52 and I have to echo the sentiment that loop is, in fact, more readable. 21:58:56 mathrick: I'm over here in the "even if it is just one LOOP in a project.. then I'll use ITERATE" corner :) it should be mandatory to include, so we can kill off LOOP 21:59:02 (for example the whole "being the" clause) 21:59:05 I'm sure iterate helps if you bloat your loops up into huge unmanageable monsters. 21:59:10 schme: yeah 21:59:12 Go around any business 90% of the PC's are running windows and office, not SQL server etc 21:59:28 sykopomp: please show me one user who doesn't have iterate yet 21:59:30 but other than that, and the hash table issue, I don't find it compelling. I'm not even interested in extending something that already does what I need it to do. 21:59:42 sykopomp: you are making up problems that DON'T EXIST 21:59:56 I do not have iterate 22:00:03 OmniMancer: GET IT 22:00:05 mathrick: ^^^ 22:00:06 :D 22:00:10 its annoying to do so 22:00:16 fe[nl]ix: because it is. Unless you disagree on the readability of sexps, but then it might be the wrong channel 22:00:29 Anyway, I am a newbie to Lisp, I am reading PCL and have watched the SCIP lectures 22:00:33 if you want me to please fix windows compatability on sbcl contrib packages 22:00:50 OmniMancer: nice. 22:00:52 Adlai: it isn't, because its whole "syntax" introduces idiocies like DO 22:01:11 -!- thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:01:11 which don't actually do anything but unbreak what it broke by getting rid of parentheses 22:01:12 mathrick: but DO is an implicit progn! 22:01:13 :D 22:01:16 which is -awesome- 22:01:18 (like loop) 22:01:21 sykopomp: wrong DO 22:01:37 the DO keyword in LOOP's syntax 22:01:44 mathrick: that's exactly what I'm talking about :) 22:01:45 and it's anything but a progn 22:01:55 I really bellieve in Lisp 22:02:08 it's not implicit if I have to write it explicitly 22:02:26 (loop repeat 1000 do (print "Hey!") (print "ho!")) 22:02:28 markmm: It's hard not to believe in it. I've used it. It's there :) 22:02:35 I guess that's not a progn. 22:02:41 let's go! 22:02:54 can someone in the asdf group on cl.net fix asdf? 22:02:55 I must be talking about the wrong LOOP 22:03:05 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Success] 22:03:09 or -- how do I request the commit bit? 22:03:11 Fare: can't you see that the current topic is "Trolls Anonymous"? 22:03:23 I'm not anonymous! 22:03:40 Fare: what's wrong with asdf? :( 22:03:40 thus you're off-topic! 22:03:50 sykopomp: how's something you have to type "implicit"? 22:03:56 sykopomp, try to check it out from git and weep 22:03:58 I don't think you understand what that word means 22:04:06 -!- mejja [n=user@c-3fb7e455.44-2195-74657210.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.13/2009080315]"] 22:04:13 mathrick: I don't know. I don't see a PROGN there. 22:04:16 :D 22:04:20 sykopomp: s/DO/PROGN/ 22:04:29 smileys don't fix being wrong, y'know 22:04:34 it's still not implicit 22:04:42 oh I see. 22:04:43 I see a DO, which is an implicit progn, which is what I said. 22:04:44 mathrick: you seem to be saying that sexps are maximally readable in all contexts and for all people. that's false 22:04:54 sykopomp: please look "implicit" up 22:05:03 mathrick: you mean all LOOP does is spell "progn" as "do" 22:05:06 you're misusing words you don't understand 22:05:08 schme: yes 22:05:09 sure it is, it lumps everything until the next loop keyword into a progn-type thing, which I consider "implicit progn" 22:05:17 sigh 22:05:19 it is an implicit progn in the same way as a function body is 22:05:20 mathrick: that's wrong, too, unfortunately. 22:05:36 schme, heheh I guess I meant I believe it its hyoe 22:05:39 hype 22:06:20 markmm: That's cool man. I hope you can have the hyped up feel living with ya for years to come. 22:06:44 fe[nl]ix: I say that I find iterate much more readable without giving up the actual benefits of LOOP's english-like syntax while regaining what is lost from LOOP 22:06:56 markmm: I find it very nice atleast :) 22:07:04 in this case, there are very obvious benefits to having sexps 22:07:07 namely, scope 22:07:13 iterate: loop + parentheses = readability? 22:07:29 and not making up a thousand new keywords that only reimplement standard CL forms 22:07:35 markmm: since the topic seems to be on nitpicking words, I wouldn't say CL is hyped 22:07:40 sykopomp: yes 22:07:50 mathrick: sounds brilliant. Still bloat. 22:07:56 your face is bloat 22:08:02 Adlai: How about "believe in the total bliss" 22:08:03 ur mom's bloat. 22:08:05 <3 22:08:24 rather, I'd say that it performs amazingly well, and lispers echo that fact everywhere they go. 22:08:30 -!- paw` [n=paw`@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [] 22:08:37 Adlai: it works great until it doesn't! 22:08:48 "ur mom's bloat." is a testament to how good it is ;) 22:08:52 thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:04 and it doesn't when you want to use the nice parts on windows :( 22:09:08 schme: is IT bound to 'ur mom' or to 'bloat'? 22:09:13 hehehe 22:09:21 Adlai, No noy hyped, I mean the whole Lisp will change the way you think , ESR thing 22:09:32 markmm: I think that's hype. 22:10:01 Depending on what you did before it might change how you think, I guess :) 22:10:02 then again, lisp is the first language I really learned and still the main language I use, so maybe I missed the moron train everyone else is assumed to come from? 22:10:23 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:10:44 markmm: it changes the way you think about programming the same way that learning a stack-based language or an APL-like language would -- it's just a different way of looking at things 22:10:49 it changes the way you think, but all languages do. 22:10:51 -!- coliv [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:11:07 it just so happens to be a very powerful way to look at things. 22:11:15 it's funny how all languages go "it'll change the way you think" :) 22:11:22 schme: most are right 22:11:27 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:11:30 for example, Java changes the way you think 22:11:48 they have to, you have to solve problems within their domain, so you need to "think" in that domain. 22:11:57 Right. So why point it all out? 22:12:01 Adlai: by putting you in a tiny little box and nailing it shut? 22:12:02 is a bit obvious? 22:12:03 yea, I dunno 22:12:14 schme: well, some do more than others 22:12:20 at least they nail you in a little box that has some good libraries ;) 22:12:26 Lisp has a broader domain space than other languages. 22:12:30 so, it can be richer. 22:12:40 im not getting a good feeling here 22:12:45 scheme is an itty bitty box 22:12:48 Phoodus: they nail you into a hardware store, to paraphrase some post somewhere about why Java sucks 22:12:52 markmm: it's more than a feeling 22:12:55 try some Pepto Bismil markmm 22:13:00 *Bismol 22:13:04 Java will change the way you think? 22:13:08 of course 22:13:09 "[Java teaches you to program] like a plumber in a hardware store." 22:13:24 there's definately a lot of that 22:13:25 Adlai: but how much it changes how you think depends on where yer coming from. so it's a bit of an odd thing anyway. 22:13:28 oh well. 22:13:32 yea 22:13:39 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 22:14:00 on thing that's certain is that IRC will change how much code you actually produce. 22:14:13 like meeting a deranged mental patient will do the same 22:14:15 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 22:14:16 for example learning C when you know C++ (yes it's a strange order) means you don't have to change your thinking as much 22:14:22 whatz the buzz? "This Brilliant Octopus will change how you think?" 22:14:44 i dont want to change how i think 22:14:45 markmm: after I learned java, I started thinking more about how I organize code, and kinda solidified the style I use now with lisp stuff. I also learned about design patterns, from the norvig/lisp perspective. 22:14:48 hi, im trying cl-who and get some problems with it in macros, i found that there are some html generators http://cl-user.net/asp/tags/11047 some recomendation? lml , yaclm or other? thanks 22:15:11 sykopomp: you needs some Thinking Forth (: 22:15:29 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-36-251.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:15:33 Coding C with a C++ background will definitely change the way you think because you're "stuck" at a lower level. Much of your idioms from C++ won't work. 22:15:37 oh we are back to #lisp 22:15:39 schme: after I messed around with factor for a bit, I started rewriting a ton of my lisp code in a much more functional style. I started pulling stuff in from alexandria, like compose, curry, etc. 22:15:44 and actually using it all over the place. 22:15:51 neato! 22:15:57 schme: don't jynx the moment... 22:15:59 don't know if that's what I'm supposed to learn from forth? 22:16:05 -!- Coliveira [n=Coliveir@12.15.114.194] has quit [Read error: 105 (No buffer space available)] 22:16:06 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:16:12 I gave up on factor because of some annoying thing I can't remember what it was :) 22:16:19 forth == merciless refactoring and no memory management 22:16:21 schme: the community? 22:16:23 sykopomp: no just saying Thinking Forth is a neat book :) 22:16:25 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:26 ..or namespaces 22:16:34 sykopomp: the community seemed fine. 22:16:36 sykopomp, you mean, learn PostScritp? Factor? 22:16:59 Fare: he mentioned forth, I wasn't sure if the same lessons would be learned from factor. 22:17:13 I ment the book there :P 22:17:18 right 22:17:29 it's not really forth specific. like SICP isn't exactly scheme specific. 22:17:29 oh, this is a different book. 22:17:44 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:54 I thought you wanted me to get http://globalnerdy.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/forth_on_the_atari.jpg 22:17:56 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 22:17:59 *schme* looks 22:18:02 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Client Quit] 22:18:17 oh yes. 22:18:17 the fact tha Java/C# are now bolting on the things that Lisp have builting and becuase of than people are creaming in their pants, tells me something 22:18:18 thinking forth is a little more forth specific than SICP though? because its about forth? 22:18:25 THAT is what CL needs. 22:18:26 whartung: forth usually has namespaces of various forms 22:18:30 muscular men and hot chucks. 22:18:34 chicks 22:18:39 OmniMancer: a lot of the advice in thinking forth is obsolete but it is still an interesting book, and no, its not overly forth specific 22:18:50 okay 22:19:00 slava: I read somewhere there was supposed to be a 21st century edition coming out. 22:19:15 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 22:19:16 schme: I'd have trouble beleiving that, given that nobody really usese stack based langauge sanymore 22:19:28 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:38 's what I read. with an OOP chapter and all. 22:19:44 it's a good read 22:19:49 -!- younder [n=jthing@251.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 22:19:52 you can download it from the web, so... 22:20:10 open firmware uses forth 22:20:12 -!- Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has quit ["My damn controlling terminal disappeared!"] 22:20:17 slava: How's factor coming along anyway? I'm trying to remember what creeped me out about it :) 22:20:29 OmniMancer: but who uses open firmware anymore :) not apple 22:20:34 just sun now? 22:20:44 apple doesn't anymore? 22:20:50 no, the new intel macs use EFI 22:20:55 EFI is an openfirmware 22:21:03 no its not, its completely different 22:21:04 well we are going to bed here! 22:21:13 good night ladies and gentlemen. 22:21:19 (and beans) 22:21:25 It has BIOS backward compatability 22:21:26 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:21:42 OmniMancer: and bios is not openfirmware 22:22:04 I know 22:23:29 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 22:24:54 http://cl-www.msi.co.jp/projects/manardb/index.html <-- oooh, that sounds useful, I was just looking for a saner interface to mmap() 22:24:58 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:27:13 redblue [i=star@ppp051.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:28:19 kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:35 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:28:57 yeah, manardb looks really exciting. 22:29:59 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:31:49 coliv [n=Coliveir@c-69-248-128-195.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:37 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 22:34:48 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 22:35:14 Hi guys, how would one go about to modify the interactor pane in mcclim to read sexps? 22:37:10 Sikander: have a look at the code for the Listener, i would think 22:37:35 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:37:40 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-omwjtybdflrezxuk] has joined #lisp 22:38:02 drewc: ... That is an excellent suggestion. Thanks 22:41:37 Sikander: no worries 22:41:51 -!- nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["Bad spellers of the world, untie!"] 22:43:22 -!- thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:43:37 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:25 -!- Ralith_ [n=ralith@d142-058-088-074.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:45:59 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6B58C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 22:51:43 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:58 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.52.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:57:31 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.52.247] has joined #lisp 22:57:42 pepone [n=pepone@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:56 seangrove [n=user@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:39 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-45-207.iburst.co.za] has quit ["leaving"] 23:00:32 younder [n=jthing@84.202.13.251] has joined #lisp 23:01:03 -!- tagac [n=user@203.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["/* */"] 23:02:40 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 23:03:01 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-36-251.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:08:19 -!- knobo [n=user@216-55-160.100710.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:09:13 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:09:25 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:37 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has left #lisp 23:14:19 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:16:43 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.52.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:17:58 jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 23:18:32 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 23:19:39 djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:19 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:20:21 dysinger [n=dysinger@adsl-99-181-31-201.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:44 Does anyone know how to rotate text in mcclim? with-rotation doesn't work, and draw-text* :transformation ... doesn't work either. 23:22:29 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has quit ["100 days are gone..."] 23:22:58 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.186.212] has joined #lisp 23:27:26 hi all 23:27:51 ¿common lisp have some like the string->symbol in scheme? 23:28:23 yes. 23:28:29 ¿wath is? 23:28:44 clhs intern 23:28:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm 23:28:59 for example http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/strings.html#symbols 23:29:33 i see very thanks both 23:29:35 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 23:31:28 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-kkyhubifoscjsmfd] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:31:51 namor [n=namor@dslb-088-072-253-252.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:47 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:33:09 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:33:24 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483AAF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:35:52 Does someone know a preferably easy tutorial on usocket? 23:36:16 Ppjet6 [n=ppjet@AMontsouris-152-1-35-147.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:36:36 jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 23:38:28 -!- Ppjet6 is now known as Pepe_ 23:39:27 if you know sockets you know usocket .. there isn't much to it 23:39:58 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 23:40:16 Hmm, ok. Expected it to be complicated.. thanks. 23:42:16 how do you get just the filename of a full path? 23:42:20 (float (alexandria:median '(1 2 3 4))) => 3.5 23:43:19 namor, (usocket: .. and you get a list of function names etc. that pretty much do what you'd expect 23:44:43 (ie go from /foo/bar.lisp to bar.lisp) 23:45:59 namor, or perhaps C-c I then (find-package :usocket) .. then pressing enter on "77 external symbols" .. then pressing enter on the stuff listed there will show doc-strings etc. .. hitting 'l' moves you back to the list 23:46:26 Wow.. ok. 23:47:26 Cool! thanks! 23:47:33 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 23:49:03 slime is really nice; very useful tool for getting to know a new project or library .. and slime has a pretty good manual :) (and ofc. emacs itself provide some facilities wrt. "self-documentation" of slime itself; describe-mode etc.) 23:50:22 be sure to learn all the C-h bindings in emacs 23:53:19 hi, how can i load a namespace for use div instead lml::div , is a basic asdf project thanks 23:54:08 found my answer, (pathname-name path) 23:54:12 you have to export div from lml 23:54:23 then import it into your package 23:57:39 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif3-0-0-cust705.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"]