00:00:43 dysinger__ [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:25 -!- dysinger__ [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:08:44 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.187.255.96] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:09:25 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-25-116-252.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:01 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 00:10:44 myrkraverk: it's worth noting that CL is flexible enough about function definitions and packages and all that stuff (by not being obnoxious about filenames splitting packages up) that it's fairly easy to pretend you're in literate programming land, at least partially. 00:11:05 sykopomp, ;) 00:11:40 -!- thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:11:57 sykopomp: I like what r6rs did with the module <-> file mapping 00:12:03 its less flexible but makes things much easier 00:13:07 slava: I'm not convinced it's necessary, and I like the flexibility. I've taken advantage of it before. 00:13:18 the CL approach is too unreliable 00:13:28 what if you accidentally define two functions in different files but in the same package? you don't even get an error 00:13:46 that's more to do with the tools than the concept. 00:13:47 I've pretty much found that if CL does something that other modern languages don't do, its a bad idea 00:14:15 sykopomp: 'tools' being 'all existing implementations' 00:14:26 slava: You mean like optional type declarations? 00:14:34 Makoryu: yes 00:14:39 that's one that doesn't work too well in CL 00:14:42 Hmmmm...... 00:14:44 slava: you can certainly have a module loading system that signals an error for a duplicate definition, and you can have a system that keeps track of defined stuff and undefines things when the definition disappears from the file (like you do with factor) 00:14:53 there's a lot of variation between implementations as to whether the declarations are assertions, or cehcks 00:15:03 slava: Would you rather have compile-time type inference, I wonder? 00:15:05 sykopomp: 'can have' is not the same as 'exists today and works' 00:15:19 slava: it's better than "can't have" 00:15:21 sykopomp: its not interesting, to me, that various things can be done in theory if they're not possible today 00:15:26 which is exactly what you get with a per-file module system :) 00:15:50 slava, obviously, you don't live in mathematics-land ;) 00:16:00 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-74-82.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:16:05 just define everything in 1 big file! 00:16:08 :) 00:17:23 sykopomp: with a per file module system you can get much better static checking 00:17:41 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-74-82.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 00:17:43 slava: how so? 00:17:55 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:18:01 sykopomp: for example, how do you keep your dependencies up to date in asdf system definitions? 00:18:12 with per file module systems its implicit, its just the ist of packages that you use 00:18:31 slava: I change one symbol in the asdf system definition? 00:18:38 sykopomp: how do you know its up to date and accurate though? 00:18:49 slava: define "up to date and accurate" 00:19:14 sykopomp: how do you esnure taht you don't forget to list a dependent system, or that the only listed systems are the ones that are actually needed? 00:19:30 with a per file module system, the list of files that a file depends on is just the list of modules it depends on 00:19:38 with the CL approach you have this whole separate concept of 'systems' separate from 'packages' 00:19:55 slava: it's flexible, and much less noisy 00:20:34 slava: I personally dislike the incredibly verbose dependency definitions of factor's system. There's some dictionaries in there with more dependency definitions per file than actual code. 00:20:38 and that, to me, is boilerplate 00:20:41 and I hate boilerplate. 00:20:57 I like being able to put all my dependencies in a single file, and just work with my system. 00:21:08 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has joined #lisp 00:21:26 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 00:22:00 slava: I just think it's a matter of taste. I'm not convinced per-file modules are all that great, and if anything, I've found them to be annoying when I've run into them. 00:22:50 whereas I actually -enjoy- asdf-style definitions. I've had systems with 20+ files, and I've taken 10 minutes to rearrange them all into new folders, then just patch the .asd up a bit, and it all runs. 00:23:16 as opposed to having to crawl into the mess of repeated dependencies just because I think foo.lisp should go in src/util/ instead of src/stuff/ 00:23:39 and I don't even have to completely trash up every single source file with dependency garbage that I can declare centrally. 00:24:03 -!- raptelan [n=Casey@c-68-49-132-34.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:24:22 how do i make stefil not go into the debugger on expected errors? 00:24:24 maybe this is why java people use spring 00:25:28 so seems like a common problem: with tons of code, even in modules, how to organize 00:25:52 -!- maxote [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:26:03 hmm 00:26:31 unix says to build specialized modules doing 1 thing well, resuse, and pipe input out put from oen to next? 00:27:08 what unix says is wrong and harmful 00:29:27 piping is harmful because streams should be all data types, not just characters 00:30:29 processes are harmful because its' not easy to modify a running program without greenspunning 00:30:36 s/its'/it's 00:30:59 C is harmful because it doesn't include a compiler at runtime 00:31:23 http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/lisp-answers/ <-- we need to add that to minion under some easy to remember mnemonic 00:31:36 (I know mnemonic already means easy to remember, you know what I mean) 00:33:58 sykopomp: i don't find factors module system any more verbose than java 00:35:05 minion: add "before" as: Before you start learning Lisp and fixing all the wrongs in it, read this: http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/lisp-answers/ . It will save you, and us, much frustration. 00:35:05 OK, done. 00:35:12 minion: tell mathrick about before 00:35:12 mathrick: have a look at before: Before you start learning Lisp and fixing all the wrongs in it, read this: http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/lisp-answers/ . It will save you, and us, much frustration 00:35:36 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:35:59 how do i make stefil not go into the debugger on expected errors? <-- there's a variable 00:36:39 deech [n=user@24-107-144-116.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:36:43 there's stefil:*debug-on-unexpected-error* but it's UNexpected 00:36:58 oh, expected 00:37:11 then there oughta be a form like IS that captures that 00:37:59 weirdo: *ahem*, stefil:with-expected-failures 00:38:06 grep-fu is weak in this one 00:38:52 (stefil:with-expected-failures (toadstool-tests:tests)) 00:38:54 it doesn't work 00:38:58 still goes into the debugger 00:39:05 nono, you don't use it like that 00:39:09 doesn't work if i surround a test definition in it 00:39:17 doesn't work if i put the test code in it 00:39:20 you're supposed to put it in the body 00:39:24 hmm 00:39:26 lemme try 00:39:28 i didn't, and it didn't work either 00:40:04 maybe it's because i compile tests at runtime? 00:40:57 nah, i compiled at compile-time and didn't work either 00:41:15 -!- gws [n=g@w005.z209031033.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:42:24 Hi all, has anyone here used Qi in a medium size program? 00:43:07 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 00:45:31 weirdo: hmm, so it seems not to matter 00:45:35 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:37 odd 00:47:43 weirdo: ok, so I think you're supposed to wrap things in W-E-F, then discard failures which have EXPECTED set to T by HANDLER-BIND 00:47:52 that's kinda odd an approach 00:51:18 -!- jaws [n=jolyonw@124-168-253-144.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:51:42 jaws [n=jolyonwh@cb8faac9.atp.nicta.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:52:36 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@user-64-9-237-110.googlewifi.com] has joined #lisp 00:53:09 -!- jao [n=jao@214.Red-88-6-174.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:53:59 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:55:23 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-25-116-252.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:55:32 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-74-82.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:55:32 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:58:11 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:55 uh, how do i prevent an error from propagating in HANDLER-BIND? 00:59:58 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-74-82.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:00:07 oh, INVOKE-RESTART 01:03:07 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 01:03:20 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.79.73] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:03:24 weirdo pasted "here's what i did" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86788 01:03:36 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-74-82.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:04:30 Is there any way to interrupt sbcl on w32 without actually killing the process? 01:05:26 slava: comparing a language's pointless verbosity to java is pretty hilarious, I have to say :) 01:06:34 who's Robert Maas and why does he whine so much about how life is unfair? 01:07:40 hey 01:08:13 hi 01:08:43 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 01:08:59 anyone's familiar with ido-mode ? 01:09:15 sepult: is that an emacs question?... 01:09:22 right ok offtopic 01:09:24 sorry 01:09:48 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:14:07 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 01:15:56 buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-74-82.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:17:51 sepult, i use M-x ido-switch-buffer, but that's it 01:20:54 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:21:57 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:42 also, inspection doesn't work in stefil 01:22:55 i mean it does, but i get standard instance inspection 01:23:26 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:24:02 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 01:25:44 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:26:38 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@user-64-9-237-110.googlewifi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:28:04 -!- buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-74-82.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 01:30:10 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:30:28 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-24-85.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:30:29 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:30:54 etoxam [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 01:31:15 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 01:34:13 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1D7A4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:34:14 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:34:21 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:38 zeroish [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 01:34:55 m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.2.162] has joined #lisp 01:38:28 sykopomp: what's your benchmark for a wrkable module system that's usable for large systems? 01:38:35 sykopomp: java does pretty well in this regard 01:38:41 please don't say C++, with its header file mess 01:38:51 slava: I don't believe in benchmarks! 01:40:19 slava: I somehow prefer .NETs module system 01:40:57 you mean assemblies? 01:41:34 though that might be due to the way Java searches for modules in filesystem ;-) 01:42:12 slava: nikodemus had plans for alignment on x86-32. Might be worth it to have aligned pages for > nursery. 01:42:38 pkhuong: I was thinking of cooking up some system where only certain types are aligned in the heap 01:43:42 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:43:51 It's not too hard to make the bump allocator align. Alignment for large object already happens (too much, in fact). The only thing that remains to be fixed is the GC. 01:44:45 pkhuong: right now I use unaligned loads and I discovered this introduces unacceptable overhead, at least on core 2 duo 01:48:54 even on aligned addresses? 01:49:28 well, that's the point, the addresses aren't always aligned 01:49:30 For unaligned addresses, you often double the memory traffic, but for unaligned moves of actually aligned addresses, the overhead is supposed to be much smaller. 01:49:41 Ok, so it's not just using an unaligned load instruction. 01:49:47 that's why I'd like to 16-byte-align the relevant data types in my heap 01:50:12 certainly 16-byte-aligning everything is the easy way out :) 01:50:55 Waste of space if you have small objects. Java can afford that with its ginormous objects. 01:51:07 yeah 01:51:28 thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:04 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:54:47 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:57 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442411.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:57:34 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-lsiieoidznritjcw] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:59:45 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:16 benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-124-177-162-112.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:00:22 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 02:03:38 tsuru [n=user@c-76-22-154-126.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:06 -!- tsuru is now known as Guest25572 02:06:26 -!- benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-124-177-162-112.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:13:02 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:13:05 qbg [n=quassel@x-146-57-84-115.mrs.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 02:13:29 konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has joined #lisp 02:13:48 -!- etoxam [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:15:33 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:17:52 -!- thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:18:00 sohail [n=sohail@99.251.84.57] has joined #lisp 02:19:46 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:19:55 etoxam [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 02:20:21 dialtone [n=dialtone@98.210.12.88] has joined #lisp 02:22:38 `m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.2.162] has joined #lisp 02:23:18 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:26:17 lichtblau, MISMATCH: asdf-binary-locations was installed from http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf-binary-locations, current is http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf-binary-locations/ 02:26:44 (clbuild) 02:27:06 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:06 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:32:21 zenbalrog [n=johnnyc@adsl-70-253-160-52.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:00 -!- m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.2.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:37:49 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:45:38 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:45:49 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:14 -!- qbg [n=quassel@x-146-57-84-115.mrs.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:47:20 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@32.159.80.80] has joined #lisp 02:49:01 redblue [i=star@ppp113.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:51:44 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.199.82] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 02:52:38 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:54:24 -!- `m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.2.162] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:56:16 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:57:08 coderdad [n=coderdad@72.200.214.240] has joined #lisp 02:58:07 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:30 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kdggsfzlllieitoj] has joined #lisp 03:09:46 -!- seangrove [n=user@76.90.50.75] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:10:37 -!- deech [n=user@24-107-144-116.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:10:41 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:10:41 -!- nvoorhies_ is now known as nvoorhies 03:12:33 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.159.80.80] has quit [] 03:15:25 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.116.8] has joined #lisp 03:20:48 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@72.200.214.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:21:17 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:19 so... what if I want to try building a subset of lisp as a scripting language into a game... how would I start thinking about how to go about that? 03:21:46 fisxoj: This is the subject of numerous tutorials, actually 03:21:52 is the game written in Lisp itself? 03:22:01 wonderful! 03:22:08 fisxoj: See also: Greenspun's Tenth Rule 03:22:08 felideon: no, I'm learning SDL for C 03:22:29 but, I think lisp would be awesome for making it very expandable 03:22:49 I think lisp is awesome period, but, I'm not quite there with it yet 03:23:59 fisxoj: you might fare better with various small Scheme implementations if your main engine is in C, eventually you can embed ECL. Another way would be to do main application in CL, then you can compile your subset language to CL and then to native code 03:24:42 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:25:57 kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 03:25:57 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:28:02 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:35:27 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-229-90-41.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:39 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Success] 03:38:43 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:38:55 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:29 sohail [n=sohail@99.251.84.57] has joined #lisp 03:42:34 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:42:56 konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has joined #lisp 03:46:42 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:43 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:15 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:02 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-74-82.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:03:35 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:04:09 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483ACFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:04:16 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483ACFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:59 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 04:07:27 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 04:07:39 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:07:43 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 04:09:08 -!- trsh [n=mock@93-141-14-81.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [] 04:11:06 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 04:14:13 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442411.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 04:15:26 i wonder how hard it would be to make emacs bindings for ecasound? 04:15:31 i mean, common lisp bindings 04:15:41 there are already elisp ones :) 04:17:32 pepsi_can [n=amanda@24.175.58.52] has joined #lisp 04:18:35 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:19:00 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:19:00 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 04:19:15 hello? 04:20:53 -!- pepsi_can [n=amanda@24.175.58.52] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 04:23:07 hi Pepe__ 04:23:13 i mean, pepsi 04:23:20 think he's gone 04:25:22 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.116.8] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:25:39 trsh [n=mock@78.1.184.79] has joined #lisp 04:26:19 -!- Nshag [i=user@193.248.204.16] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:29:24 -!- trsh 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joined #lisp 05:12:47 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 05:12:49 morning 05:13:20 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:13:27 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:44 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A18EE.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:15:41 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 05:15:52 Good morning everyone. 05:15:57 and hello splittist 05:16:09 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest54794 05:18:04 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:18:07 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:28 trsh [n=mock@78.1.135.20] has joined #lisp 05:22:12 -!- deech` [n=user@24-107-144-116.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:22:27 deech` 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06:39:59 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:40:10 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:13 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:40:22 i had the weirdest idea 06:40:34 hello 06:40:40 how about making an alphabet containing latin characters, which is readable at much smaller font size? 06:42:49 aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has joined #lisp 06:43:07 -!- csmerlin [n=smileymy@99-31-211-124.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:48:17 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 06:49:11 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 06:52:13 daniel__ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:53:22 levy_ [n=levy@apn-94-44-6-69.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 06:57:26 you could call it miniscule! and develop it in such a way that it could be handwritten! by carolingian monks! 06:57:58 terminus is quite small 06:58:09 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-45.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:21 <_3b> 5x7 is small too 06:58:57 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:59:19 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:59:28 -!- kouk [n=koukopou@88.197.8.45] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:59:29 Doesn't seem to be any lisp podcasts... 07:01:16 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:20 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-12-83.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:02:48 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 07:03:50 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-64-59.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:04:12 hi, somebody using elephant or rucksack? 07:06:49 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp113.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [""You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late." -RWE"] 07:07:34 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:08:18 salva: I understand it must be frustrating to run into issues with these libraries, but it might be a more efficient strategy to ask on the relevant mailing lists 07:09:32 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-12-83.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:09:33 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 07:09:55 -!- kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:09:58 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:10:08 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-78-239.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 07:10:25 redblue [i=star@ppp033.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 07:10:26 good morning 07:10:46 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:10:47 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:10:50 yes , the rucksack has few messages a month, and elephant, i'll try to run it in a osx and a linux and i cant get it runing 07:11:13 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:13 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:12:07 i ask for a allegro license, and is a bit expesive for me, :( 07:12:17 Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 07:12:22 -!- seangrove [n=user@76.90.50.75] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:14:05 i'm lost in my firsts lisp steps 07:14:20 -!- kerc [n=riise@31.84-49-151.nextgentel.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:14:49 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:15:08 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:49 nessuno2_ [n=nesuno@pool-0116c.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:15:50 salva: have you successfully installed and used other lisp libraries (cl-ppcre, vecto, ...)? 07:16:23 salva: so, did you describe your problems on the mailing lists? 07:16:26 yes i'm using hunchentood cl-who 07:16:51 postmodern 07:17:23 salva: so it's hardly your /first/ lisp steps (: 07:18:11 salva: also, you might postpone the problem a bit, and use an in-memory data store for the time being, until you get the rest of the application up and running 07:18:55 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host192.190-137-246.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 07:19:38 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 07:20:04 kouk [n=koukopou@88.197.8.45] has joined #lisp 07:20:24 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:50 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 07:21:10 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host41.190-138-160.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:21:24 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has left #lisp 07:23:20 michaelw: yes is an option, my problem is that i need a basic web site runing in a few weeks, and i'd like it in lisp, and i don't know if i'll have persistent clos herence suport or must i do with postmoder 07:23:45 "weeks"!? That's not very 2.0 07:23:52 seems like a recipe for disaster :) 07:24:40 is very basic web site, i say weks because i'm very begginer in lisp, but could be done in a few days 07:25:01 seangrove [n=user@76.90.50.75] has joined #lisp 07:25:32 salva: with your current problem resolution strategy, I doubt that. Sorry. 07:26:03 *levy_* feels more need for dwim.hu 07:26:29 levy_: tell us when it's there :-P 07:26:51 well in four days i have this web runing in php, or less 07:27:24 salva, our current goal is to change that in lisp 07:27:55 levy_: the next yahoo store? :) 07:28:09 michaelw, no way, it won't be a service 07:28:37 it is an online reflexive documentation, demo site, download/install instructions, etc. 07:29:00 so that you can have the same site up and running in a reasonable amount of time 07:29:23 heh, I didn't want to write few minutes... 07:29:44 also tutorials, etc. 07:30:22 the point is that if someone has a customer and wants to do the web project in lisp he should be able to start quickly 07:30:27 why not? it'd be very "cloudy" :) users can start writing webservices in (sandboxed) lisp immediately, and at the push of a button they get a ready-to-run bundle of everything 07:30:31 all database, web server, emacs, swank set up 07:31:12 michaelw, I'm not saying that that is a bad idea, but the development environment is not there yet 07:31:37 salva: do you already know PHP? Do you already know Lisp? 07:31:49 Tordek [n=tordek@host10.190-226-118.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 07:32:00 i know oo languajes, java php pytho c++ 07:32:37 but i found metaprograming a months ago, with metacase 07:33:56 with metacese, i solve a lo of repetitive code, then found lisp that is a metaprogrming languaje and i need learn it 07:34:00 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 07:35:03 levy_ "web project in lisp .. start quickly" -- r amen to that. 07:35:36 salva: what are you building your site on? hunchentoot? 07:35:57 hunchentoot cl-routes cl-who 07:36:01 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:36:02 if you already have php running the same app, why not reuse the same database (with its models etc) with cl-sql ? 07:36:11 levy_: sorry if this has been asked already, but can you explain why your new server doesn't use hunchentoot? 07:37:03 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.23.90] has joined #lisp 07:37:04 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:37:07 levy_, lichtblau: are you talking about stuff coming out of the cl-dwim project? I did not know it was web-related .. 07:37:21 nunb if i can't get a elepant runing i'll do it with postmoderd that seems works well 07:37:44 * just saw http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-dwim/ is working towards a webapp server. 07:37:45 (I'm not arguing that it should, but from the "start quickly" angle the change means that most current Lisp/Web users need to start over learning.) 07:38:39 but i'll must implememt herence suport in db storage, don't for my first web, but i'd like have it in my next projects 07:39:37 lichtblau: we started working on web servers before ht was out. and wui is more serious in many ways (using iolib, has connection multiplexing in mind, etc), whereas i see ht as more like an easy start but that scales only up to a given limit 07:39:37 attila_lendvai, memo from weirdo: could you add a toplevel restart for STEFIL? i press "q" and it barfs "sldb: no toplevel restart available" 07:40:56 weirdo: should work. that's probably a slime head incompatibility. i'm just working on rebasing our slime patches on the head... but i seem to remember someone sending a patch, are you using stefil head? 07:41:30 attila_lendvai, i'm using what's defined in clbuild, which is some repository 07:41:33 so, we have cl-http, aclweb, WUI, hunchentoot, tpd2, did I miss any? 07:41:39 darcs, actually 07:41:42 nunb, we are actually built web based production systems 07:41:46 michaelw: ucw 07:41:50 michaelw, core 07:41:51 -!- kouk [n=koukopou@88.197.8.45] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:41:53 michaelw, weblocks? 07:42:01 tic: is that a webserver? 07:42:02 and cl-fcgi 07:42:05 WUI is the dwim-httpd? 07:42:20 hehe, the problem with lisp is that it is too easy to write a web server ;-) 07:42:30 nm. seems to be 07:42:46 guaqua: if you use dwim to identify us, then yes... 07:43:01 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-74-80.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:43:02 guaqua, wui is not just a web server 07:43:04 levy_: "too easy to write a half-assed web server", FTFY 07:43:08 attila_lendvai: okay, so it's part of the new iolib world order. I like that. 07:43:16 levy_: and it's easy an mostly any language 07:43:21 levy_: hence 'the' :) 07:43:35 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 07:43:55 what's wrong with running lisp in fastcgi? 07:44:04 we know many other web servers, still we wrote our own... half-assed? it's not my job to judge, but it's certainly much more than just a httpd 07:44:07 apache uses sendfile(2) so it's faster when serving some static content 07:44:18 prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:40 besides, fastcgi doesn't require any apache modules, just a C program for connecting to lisp 07:44:41 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.23.90] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:44:48 attila_lendvai: what would be the preferred way to call you? 07:44:49 attila_lendvai: that's not exactly what I said 07:44:57 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host192.190-137-246.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:45:01 thanks, i going to try cl-dwim 07:45:10 weirdo: wui can easily use sendfile, would be probably a few lines long change 07:45:15 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.23.90] has joined #lisp 07:45:59 guaqua: dwim is ok... i just wanted to point out that it's not dwim-httpd in the sense that it tries to be smart on finding out what you want and do it automagically... 07:46:18 bah, too much words, we should rather work on the site 07:46:19 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.23.90] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:46:40 *attila_lendvai* looks up FTFY 07:46:46 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.23.90] has joined #lisp 07:46:48 fixed that for you 07:46:50 attila_lendvai: 07:47:04 attila_lendvai: sounds good. gotta check it out 07:47:22 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:47:41 attila_lendvai, can cl-dwim http stuff draw forms and tables from arbitrary lisp data? 07:48:48 weirdo, it has a meta gui, that does that, browsing, editing, searching, making data 07:49:07 with authorization, etc. 07:49:21 it is built for business applications in mind 07:49:58 weirdo: looks like it can http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-quasi-quote/present-class-explanation.html 07:50:28 In fact, I am looking for a arbitrary lisp -> json transformer .. 07:50:33 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host10.190-226-118.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:51:09 nunb: that's nothing compared to what the metagui part can do. that's just a trivial demo for qq... which reminds me that we should rebase that from UCW to WUI... :) 07:51:14 for example read in clsql list data and transform to json 07:51:52 attila_lendvai: so cl-dwim used to use ucw but has now moved to wui (completely) ? 07:52:04 Because UCW is still listed on the cl-dwim cliki page. 07:52:26 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:53:46 * I mean the common-lisp.net page, sorry. 07:53:50 nunb: drewc wanted to bring ucw in a different direction, so i've agreed to fork it on a different name. then after an hour or two i've ended up darcs initializing a fresh repo and start working on wui taking what i liked from ucw and dropping what i didn't. that made its core considerably simpler... 07:54:03 nunb: the cl.net page will soon turn into a redirect to dwim.hu 07:54:15 fgtech_ [n=Federico@host114-228-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 07:54:19 -!- fgtech_ [n=Federico@host114-228-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 07:54:25 I see. 07:54:55 I guess contextL couldn't accomodate that context-change ;-P 07:56:06 I couldn't find metagui on c-l.net or cliki -- is it related to cells/constraint propagation? 07:56:35 but then we built a component based stateful gui on it, which is the real value in wui, not the httpd stuff... it's like a remote desktop to a gui app running on the server, but uses html and js for presenting stuff on the client side... 07:57:22 I guess I need to checkout the sources rather than scrounge for info on cliki etc! 07:57:23 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.23.90] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:57:40 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-78-239.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:57:47 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.23.90] has joined #lisp 07:57:49 attila_lendvai: look forward to dwim.hu and finding out more. 07:57:52 nunb: metagui is just a name we use to describe the part of wui that can present any data model based on the metadata available on the meta level 07:58:22 *attila_lendvai* goes back hacking, too... 08:00:23 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:00:36 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-78-239.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 08:01:47 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.23.90] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:02:15 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.23.90] has joined #lisp 08:04:26 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:26 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:06:00 Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 08:07:20 jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 08:10:13 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:10:14 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.23.90] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:10:46 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.23.90] has joined #lisp 08:12:29 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:08 What's the status of threading support for SBCL on Windows these days? Is the GSoC 2008 project the last time someone actively worked on it? 08:14:08 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.23.90] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:14:18 kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 08:14:18 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:14:39 doesn't support at all, afaik 08:14:45 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.23.90] has joined #lisp 08:14:45 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.23.90] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:15:03 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:36 stassats: yeah, I'm mainly curious when the last time was when someone worked on / looked at it 08:18:49 HG` [n=HG@xdslgk223.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:19:09 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:19:36 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 08:20:05 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:00 I'm basically wondering if there's anyone else besides me who'd be willing to shell out some money and pool it together so someone could work on threading support for Windows for SBCL. If there's enough it might be enough for someone to work on it for a week or so :) 08:23:49 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:23:54 gws [n=gws@cpe-76-172-12-145.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:24:02 hello 08:24:07 aerique: while they are at it they could make it work under BSD as well 08:24:07 :x 08:24:09 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:36 I thought threads worked on freebsd= 08:24:37 ? 08:24:38 so with something like rucksack I would not need a relational database at all? 08:24:52 "experimental" schme 08:25:01 and sbcl doesnt compile when I enable it :) 08:25:10 PissedNumlock: I see. Well then it seems you have work to do :) 08:25:23 or.. use clisp with threads ;) 08:25:37 well, I'm a bit busy atm 08:25:39 Bacta [n=gfdgdf@118-93-56-25.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:25:43 oh aren't we all (: 08:25:47 one can't be active on irc and work at the same time 08:25:59 thats what you think lol 08:25:59 I have a lisssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssp 08:26:24 l i ( D 08:26:40 l | ) | 08:26:40 PissedNumlock: Most of us here get paid to IRC. Don't you? 08:26:45 nope schme :< 08:26:48 wow. 08:27:28 gws: correct for rucksack 08:27:50 To me it's more that I'm not totally busy, just too busy to actually downgrade to freebsd, learn that, and poke around sbcl source tree enough to make threading work :P 08:28:00 downgrade... downgrade 08:28:05 idurand [n=idurand@chataigne.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 08:28:28 as long as you use it as a server it's fine 08:28:33 so how do I query my lisp data structures? are there established ways I would learn as I learn lisp? does the answer change when CLOS is used? 08:28:42 *schme* is a netbsd person. it'd surely be a downgrade :P 08:29:05 gws: Depends on your data structures ? 08:29:10 to freebsd from? 08:29:20 sense, you make none? 08:29:22 netbsd is impressive by the way 08:29:28 ehehe. 08:29:37 everything is impressive. What about data structures? 08:29:43 I am wondering is opensolaris outperforms netbsd 5.0.1 08:29:50 oh 08:29:53 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:30:00 gws: I'd bet it does for some things, and not for other things. 08:30:00 -!- kei_ is now known as kei 08:30:08 (: 08:30:25 I fI used rucksack and made a website, then people aded tons of data, then I decided to change the way i wanted to query the data for a new report my finance guys want,...would it be pretty easy? 08:30:35 hmm.. 08:30:40 never used no rucksack. 08:30:57 I heard you sucksack 08:31:10 har har j/k 08:31:11 gws: In general I find changing data structures is not very hard if you have designed your accessing off it all good in the first place. 08:31:26 where do I learn howto do that? 08:31:39 Hm.. by doing it bad lotsa times :D 08:31:42 lol 08:31:48 <---fear of failure 08:32:06 If you have a few functions that are used for querying.. and all queries go through those, then it is all easy. 08:32:14 Fear of failure is fear of learning. 08:32:30 what if I need to speed up my query? database uses waht index for such right? 08:32:32 gws: basically, you want to try and minimize the amount of code which depends on the specific "backend", and organize it within an API which the rest of your code uses. 08:33:26 so is this a support channel for people with lisps? 08:33:33 there's a lot of technical discussion going on here 08:33:44 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:33:54 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host90.190-226-119.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 08:33:57 Bacta: no 08:34:00 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:34:04 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:34:05 I'm angry 08:34:10 gws: Say you have a function QUERY. if everything uses that.. and you don't change how that returns stuff, nor change how it is called.. then the mechanics "below" can be changed and speeded up or whatever. 08:34:22 gws http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-perec/ 08:34:59 Bacta: read the topic of this channel, please. (most IRC clients will give you the topic if you type "/topic") 08:35:51 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 08:35:56 Adlai I have read the topic 08:35:58 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229151217.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:35:59 I'm trolling 08:36:14 oh no, a troll on the internet. What shall we do? 08:36:25 You better be careful 08:36:31 Or I'll get ma GNAA peeps onto ya ;) 08:37:21 Adlai: /ignore tends to work. 08:37:33 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Zhivago 08:37:38 Wait 08:37:40 I'll be good 08:37:47 +o too I guess. 08:37:48 I hate Communism! 08:37:50 An interesting theory ... 08:37:57 Death to Kim Jong Il! 08:38:07 Victory to Zhivago's South Korea 08:38:13 blah blah blah yadder yadder yadder 08:38:16 I'll be quiet now 08:38:18 salva: thats to use postgresql 08:38:18 -!- Zhivago has set mode -b %Drunkenmonkey!*@* 08:38:23 -!- Zhivago has set mode +b %Bacta!*@* 08:38:28 -!- Zhivago has set mode -o Zhivago 08:39:07 if I am using postgresql I could use perl and make it all lampy 08:39:24 I thought something in lisp would be more powerful. 08:40:07 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 08:40:21 I think it would be a lot of work to write a database thingie with the performance of pgsql. 08:40:26 gws: postmodern is an excellent library for accessing postgresql databases from cl 08:40:36 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-prevalence/ 08:40:41 this is interesting too 08:40:57 why use lisp over say php is you are going to end up using postgresql anyhow? 08:41:14 I read that mr paul graham used no relational database, used freebsd, and used vi and did very well 08:41:30 Indeed. 08:41:40 *schme* read Bill Gates used microsoft windows and did very well. 08:41:52 but my attempts to learn common lisp from his book ansi common lisp have frustrated me 08:42:18 gws: You might like PCL :) 08:42:25 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 08:42:30 I really didn't so far. 08:42:43 Maybe I expect something different from a programming book. 08:42:48 gws: The reason to use pgsql is because it has good performance and scales well. Why reimplement the wheel? 08:42:54 I might revisit touretskys gentle intro 08:43:05 ok but if use postgresql why not use php? 08:43:09 why use lisp? 08:43:31 I enjoy lisp. I don't enjoy php. :) 08:43:52 -!- octe [n=octe@78.129.202.55] has left #lisp 08:43:58 gws: why use postgresql if you're outputting html in the end? 08:44:14 these things are all just tools that you use to achieve a business goal 08:44:16 Hun [n=hun@80.153.55.38] has joined #lisp 08:44:25 if that goal is achieved better with another tool, then use that other tool 08:44:27 yes but I dont know how 08:44:35 or which is nicer 08:44:49 you must be competent enough to make that choice, though... so you have to learn to use the tools (: 08:45:05 <_3b> why use a middle language at all, just go straight from js to one of the rest/json object stores :p 08:45:24 works best by making toy projects (often resulting in failure to achieve the goal, but things are learned along the way) 08:45:28 _3b: or why just don't talk to the client? :P 08:45:41 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 08:45:45 it would be really interesting to get a lisp web broser, skip javascript, and have lisp talking to lisp for al the redering, 08:45:53 then 08:46:01 minion: closure 08:46:01 closure: Closure is a free web browser written completely in Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/closure 08:46:04 (-: 08:46:12 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:46:13 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-89-37.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:46:17 skip html and let the browser auto drop into a non html ( ) based markup that beats html 08:46:31 closure is massive fail 08:46:33 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:46:44 seems easier to comiber webkit and lisp. 08:46:49 combine 08:46:53 I tried it and it barfed and couldn't even open 1 page. 08:47:08 keeping up with all the new standards etc.. lotsa work. 08:47:16 bubsy [n=Bubsy@94.139.72.137] has joined #lisp 08:47:18 halla 08:47:19 yeah they should freeze html 08:47:28 make anything else an extension 08:47:52 pics and text 08:47:53 gws: I find it easier just to ignore the whole webscene :) 08:47:56 full stop 08:48:01 *schme* leaves html to the web-people ;) 08:48:08 I must disagree wt 08:48:09 schme how? 08:48:11 with this sentiment 08:48:23 html5 is a very good tool (: 08:48:23 -!- Guest54794 is now known as lexa_ 08:48:25 javascript is quite an elegant language, btw 08:48:27 so much of world is going to the web 08:48:45 Yes. I think it has a better design than python. 08:48:49 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:48:53 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest65359 08:48:58 gws: I don't see much of my world going to the web. 08:49:05 everyone says in sysadmin world that python is sooo cool 08:49:08 Im like naaaaaa 08:49:10 gws: Though I have actually hired a webdesigner to make me a website. (: 08:49:14 lol 08:49:21 webs.com make yer own 08:49:24 ;) 08:49:35 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@76.104.220.73] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:49:47 seems complicated. 08:49:52 lol 08:50:00 I don't like python much 08:50:02 [punch me in the jimmy!] 08:50:22 lisp seems very elegant from the little I know 08:50:23 it's not the only "problem" that the world is going web; the thing is that I find it a lot easier to design a web-based UI than if I were to use system tools such as GTK, Qt etc. 08:50:57 mishoo: what do you use for making the web page dynamic? 08:51:00 Using a dom tree imposes a lot of constraints that simplify things. 08:51:05 mishoo: That's excellent. Also you get portability. 08:51:09 I think it's a huge step forward. 08:51:17 gws: so far Perl, but I'm learning Lisp in order to have a decent language on the server-side 08:51:30 yo Zhivago !! I heard its ur bday today. Gratz ;-))) 08:51:43 gws: I think the main reason I can avoid the whole webprogramming stuff is that I am not really in the IT industry ;) 08:52:27 I sometimes wonder if i tried to hook the fastcgi module to cherokee webserver, and had lisp as the cgi langauge....would that leave me to simply program string parser adn functions to serach lisp data structures for the answer to a dynamic get? 08:53:00 or maybe learn cl-emb 08:53:31 I have some serious reading to do. 08:53:41 and I must fight my inkling to learn forth as well 08:53:49 Why fight learning forth? 08:53:58 well I don't even know lisp 08:54:07 That's no reason to avoid forth (: 08:54:15 I can learn both? 08:54:20 *schme* loves forth ;) 08:54:40 I was totally reading starting forth today after installing gforth 0.7 on my i686 archlinux server 08:54:59 the gforth guy made a webserver in like 4 screens of forth 08:55:04 with dynamic content 08:55:04 That's a bit of an odd question really. The only limit to what you can learn is your mindset. You can learn whatever. It's not like musicians go around going "what.. I can learn both to play the drums AND the flute?" 08:55:31 I think you'd better learn one and be a wizard at it 08:55:56 I flipped a coin today and forth won. 08:56:11 gws: If your goal is to do webstuff then I'd go with lisp :) 08:56:20 doh 08:56:22 ok 08:56:23 who is using forth these days? 08:56:37 *schme* is. 08:56:38 firmware developers? 08:56:43 www.colorforth.com this guy 08:56:50 and what's the added value of it? 08:56:52 is ITA public? 08:56:54 gws: That's no surprise. He invented forth. 08:56:56 instead of using C for example 08:57:05 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:57:08 gws: You should check out the CPUs he designed. amazing stuff. 08:57:14 (I have no XP in forth, just opened the wikipage) 08:57:15 supposedly massively faster to develop with 08:57:28 schme: yeah see that supercomputer he made? 08:57:28 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:57:33 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 08:57:40 PissedNumlock: you get something like a repl.. and you can interactively dump areas of memory. 08:57:55 xp experience points? 08:57:57 lol 08:58:01 awesome 08:58:16 PissedNumlock: and built in assembly. It's very much nice. You can't really write an interactive C and run it off of a floppy on some random device. For forth.. you get that easily. 08:58:33 yes gws I'm playing a rl rpg 08:58:41 not roguelike, reallife 08:58:42 PissedNumlock: and you get something like lisp macros 08:58:43 rl? 08:59:01 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 08:59:01 if only women acted as they do as npc in rpg 08:59:05 ;) 08:59:08 or more women I know 09:00:30 Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A67ED3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:27 PissedNumlock: It's a bit like.. with C it's always C. With forth you tend to build a language to suit your needs. You're not really restricted by the syntax. Just change it if you like. (: 09:01:45 schme: isn't it supposed to be the same with Lisp? 09:01:50 timor [n=martin@p5B306925.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:54 -!- timor [n=martin@p5B306925.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 09:02:22 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:22 hence my fascination with both, and rejection of perl etc even though in sysadmin world I got pressure to learn such 09:02:25 mishoo: Yes. But implementing a lisp and using it as an OS is a bit more work than forth. 09:02:27 except lisp macros provide an easier way 09:02:33 haskell erlang and smalltalk also seem rad 09:03:00 forth is very low level 09:03:03 I am curious what the hek macroes are. 09:03:10 gws: in Perl too you can modify the syntax if you wish 09:03:13 lisp is somewhat higher level 09:03:14 *mishoo* thinks ..oO( but that's not for mere mortals ) 09:03:22 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-bopmzowwafsyhuqx] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:03:42 mishoo: The problem with lisp is that if you take some random CPU and you have no OS, and you want to play around with the hardware.. implementing a lisp for it is a bit of work. Implementing a forth is very little work. 09:03:58 gws: macros are "programs that write programs" (or "programs that write programs (that write programs)*") ;-) 09:04:09 I see 09:04:12 mishoo: A few pages of assembly tends to be enough. and you're all set. 09:04:18 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:04:20 gws: macros are hooks into the compiler/evaluator that let you transform the way code looks before it's compiled/run. 09:04:24 *mishoo* thinks ..oO( I envision that I won't ever need forth then :) ) 09:04:33 hmmm 09:04:50 well actually I would say it depends on what you want... 09:05:17 also the fact that forth has no scope helps 09:05:25 ya 09:05:37 and I still say that if I was doing webdevelopment I'd sure go with lisp over forth :) 09:05:43 ok 09:06:08 forth has only the global scope 09:06:26 also variables are proceedures :D 09:06:46 some say the "next best language" is going to be JavaScript and I believe that.. 09:07:03 CREATE DOES> makes life good, eh 09:07:29 but polluting the namespace does kinda seem nasty... 09:07:40 -!- gws [n=gws@cpe-76-172-12-145.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:07:50 well you have dictionaries in forth (: 09:08:02 oh well. 09:08:05 back to #lisp 09:08:05 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-73-105.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:08:08 egosh [n=Miranda@62.148.132.110] has joined #lisp 09:08:30 also don't most implementations only use the first few chars and the length of the word? 09:09:16 I have no idea what most implementations do. I can't imagine that being very common with lotsa memory available these days :) 09:09:40 well I guess not, but it was originally 09:09:47 indeed. 09:10:09 but originally it was named forth instead of fourth because fourth was too long. I guess things change :D 09:10:24 :P 09:11:50 blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 09:12:16 mrSpec_ [n=Spec@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 09:12:26 schme: is the colorForth environment usable? 09:12:50 I don't like languages in which visual elements determine behaviour... 09:13:17 Adlai: I don't know. I haven't used it. There seems to be some blog with some guy (other than chuck) actually using it. So I'd guess so :) 09:13:22 OmniMancer: well, in colorForth the "color" is actually just part of the character encoding 09:14:15 but is still worrying 09:14:42 from what I understand colorforth is much like ventureforth, and that sure is useable :) 09:15:03 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:15:44 Lisp meeting in Stockholm. A bit far away. :- 09:15:46 :-/ 09:15:51 :( 09:16:17 tic: when? 09:16:31 *schme* is going to stockholm. I have never been that far north up in sweden. Will be interesting. 09:16:40 21/9, just got a mail on the Lisp list. (lisp@lisp.se) 09:16:59 I went a to Ostergotland some days ago.. Very strange place. Walked outside and the only language one heard was swedish. It was like I had gone to some other country. 09:17:06 :) 09:17:07 very nice to come back to malmoe and normal life again 09:17:13 with the danes 09:18:13 eheheh 09:22:15 just wondering, how easy is it to make a living programming lisp? 09:22:41 if you find a company who develops in Lisp :p 09:22:42 I'm in Romania and I think I never heard of any jobs for lisp programmers :-/ 09:23:27 mishoo: Maybe the way is to get a programming job, and then introduce lisp to the company. 09:23:48 and hope they won't throw your stuff out. :-) 09:23:51 alternatively, produce something in lisp that people will pay money for 09:24:14 mishoo: start your own company, that's what we did a few miles up north... :) 09:24:17 -!- mrSpec_ is now known as mrSpec 09:25:23 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:26 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-36-251.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:25:35 would anyone pay for developing RIAs in Lisp :) 09:26:21 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 09:26:33 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:26:51 manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6D444.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:28:02 S1100100` [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 09:28:17 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:28:38 -!- S1100100` is now known as S11001001 09:28:41 weirdo2 [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:29:25 -!- weirdo2 [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:29:25 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:29:52 weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:30:46 G'day everyone. 09:31:03 RIAs? 09:31:32 Rick Internet Applications ? :) 09:31:35 *Rich 09:32:51 given that RIA = "the usual Flash+HTML crap, except with an installer", the question "would anyone pay for developing RIAs in Lisp" reads to me as "would anyone pay for developing the usual Flash+HTML crap, except with an installer in Lisp", which doesn't really make sense to me. 09:33:49 <_3b> what, the paying for RIAs part, or the doing flash+html in lisp part? 09:34:16 would you pay for something like Google Web Toolkit, but with Common Lisp instead of Java? 09:34:28 *schme* wouldn't 09:34:43 the latter. I know well that people are paying silly money for "RIA"s. 09:35:52 <_3b> well, better than doing it in actionscript or something :) 09:36:06 <_3b> (aside from the whole needing to write the entire toolchain first part) 09:36:13 oh, have we reached 2001 yet, where the word "web" selles eveything? 09:36:22 http://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.html 09:36:33 rms thinks keywords are "un-lispy" 09:36:51 *myrkraverk* plots to make money of the spiders in his house 09:36:52 -!- Guest65359 is now known as lexa_ 09:36:57 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [] 09:37:05 myrkraverk, are they poisonous? 09:37:10 weirdo, no, sadly 09:37:15 weirdo: this is the same giuy who thought that dynamic scoping by default is "easier" 09:37:31 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest68172 09:38:20 I think "RIA" has more to do with JavaScript+DOM rather than Flash+HTML 09:38:23 I wonder if "organic web content" is enough of a buzzword 09:38:54 I built pretty complex applications where the server doesn't have anything to do with HTML 09:38:58 holistic organic synergy of web content 09:39:11 business enterprise software technology solutions 09:39:11 weirdo, better ;) 09:39:29 mishoo: the problem with js is the lack of callbacks from server to client 09:39:30 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslgk223.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 09:39:48 i'd like to have a "kitten-based web content" 09:39:49 salva: yeah, but it can be worked around (with a bit of Flash :-p) 09:39:59 -!- seangrove [n=user@76.90.50.75] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:40:04 yes, i thik on that some times 09:40:14 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:40:21 if you have nothing better to do, I invite you to see my "real time" chess game: http://chess.dynarch.com/ (but it requires Flash player for client-server communication, because Flash has sockets which JS doesn't have in 2009 :-( 09:40:46 is there any fundamental difference between flash and java applets, from users point of view? or the underlying posibilites? 09:41:04 <_3b> flash starts faster, and more people have flash installed already :p 09:41:14 correct _3b 09:41:15 tsk 09:41:37 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:42:02 there are better libraries for network in java that in flash 09:42:03 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-82-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:42:17 <_3b> java probably has better libraries once you get beyond the basics though (aside from possibly generic graphics stuff) 09:42:35 *_3b* hasn't had much luck with flash libraries so far :( 09:43:09 _3b, try to get a nice co-ed to flash the libraries, maybe you'll get more luck ;) 09:43:18 with flash is easy cammera suppourt 09:43:19 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6B350.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:43:55 -!- laynor_ [n=laynor@93.107.14.255] has quit [Client Quit] 09:44:29 could be great an amf3 server in lisp 09:44:49 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:45:08 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-198-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:48:13 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483ACFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:48:40 kiuma [n=kiuma@host148-131-static.28-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:50:31 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:50:39 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:40 rudi [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 09:53:37 hey rudi, back on this side of the world? 09:53:47 yes 09:54:08 preparing for the final thesis sprint 09:54:25 ah, good luck then 09:54:36 thanks 09:54:55 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:55:08 rudi: woot! (Do you remember what the topic is, and why you chose it? And are you the same person as when you started the journey?) 09:55:42 hehe, I chose a new topic based on the (thin) common thread of my publications 09:55:54 that's the spirit :) 09:56:13 and no^2, but I attribute that more to me changing continents every half year 09:56:49 trying to get into a hacking mood again (I got snared by a MMO, that was bad :( ) 09:56:59 -!- hdurer [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-auoipgxafbmudmgn] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:58:02 -!- Guest68172 is now known as lexa_ 09:58:31 -!- rsynnott_ is now known as rsynnott 09:58:32 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest1192 09:59:02 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:59:43 rudi: ouch (: 10:00:00 I heard pfd disappeared for the same reason 10:00:02 as long as it wasn't eve online, I guess the withdrawal shouldn't be too bad (: 10:00:49 nope, it wasn't - and I deleted all my characters when quitting for the 3rd time, so there's no point in going back, whew 10:01:21 antifuchs: how about some Vienna lispmeet thing one of these weekends? 10:01:42 every year, thousands of people have their lives ruined by MMOs. Consider donating to 'Stop the MMOs' 10:01:45 ;) 10:02:04 rudi: yes! 10:02:14 yay! 10:02:35 heh, for me between cl-sdl and okra there were many years of wow and eve-online :) 10:02:59 *aerique* blames a childhood of playing Elite 10:04:16 you folk and your highly-addictive internet MMOs 10:04:53 *Krystof* is so easily snared by roguelikes that even contemplating a multiplayer version gives him a vision of a googly-eyed person up at all hours of the night 10:04:55 oh wait 10:06:17 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-147-160.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:39 segv [n=mb@p4FC1CFC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:00 the real killer, for me, was that I played about 1-2 hours longer than I wanted, per day 10:07:24 "dead tired, but can't leave now for group's sake" 10:07:24 HG` [n=HG@xdslgk223.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:07:44 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:08:04 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:09:03 weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:09:50 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 10:10:03 rudi: right. At least when I have YASD in my latest roguelike I can blame tiredness and do something about it 10:11:34 -!- kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:12:28 I guess the social pressure is compounded by the small size of most groups involved. I can see this being a smaller problem if you're part of a group of hundreds 10:13:19 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:15:26 I've worked with people who would skip social events because they needed to go on a raid in wow 10:15:31 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 10:15:41 it's really quite amazing how addictive these things apparently are 10:16:10 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:16:56 *aerique* can think of quite a few social events he'd rather not be 10:17:30 I work next to a group of WoW players. it's fascinating how repetitive it looks yet they seem to be having fun (: 10:17:59 -!- jaws [n=jolyonwh@cb8faac9.atp.nicta.com.au] has quit ["Computer goes to sleep!"] 10:18:04 so how does that work, do they have their own office? :) 10:18:12 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:19:28 nahh, I work at the metalab. all kinds of "work" are practiced here (: 10:19:47 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 10:20:11 ah, i was wondering whether your neighbours were goldfarmers 10:20:20 hee hee 10:20:32 nah, recreational players. but still. ILTWIS"recreational" 10:20:55 hey antifuchs! 10:21:02 hi v0|d 10:21:09 how you doing? 10:21:31 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C60A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:52 pretty good... currently debugging strange X server problems, later hacking on a js/html5 interface to a cl web server (: 10:21:59 antifuchs, wow can be good fun, in the right company 10:22:03 antifuchs: nice. 10:22:44 myrkraverk: I suppose, to me it just looks like lots of staring at some mount doing its thing and then mashing buttons (: 10:23:06 antifuchs, ;-D 10:23:43 antifuchs, I'm also trying out a mud as well -- that's pretty nice, too ;) 10:24:08 mud ruined lots of my friends life so be careful myrkraverk 10:24:09 :) 10:24:22 v0|d, haha ;-D 10:24:34 v0|d, it can't be more dangerous than wow ;) 10:24:35 its actually much like "DISMISSED" 10:24:44 oh yes it can. 10:24:49 dismissed? 10:25:05 myrkraverk: from school. 10:25:22 v0|d, I don't get it 10:25:53 myrkraverk: some of my friend while i was in college got dismissed due to excessive mud play. 10:26:07 v0|d, ah 10:26:45 mud is not wow, it doesnt need a nvidia video adapter, just a terminal is sufficient. i think this is why its more addictive, that players can join the game during every break on the lab, he he. 10:27:27 hah, I play wow on this laptop, which I also use for school (in class) so that is not an excuse ;) 10:29:35 nice. 10:29:35 i never play wow. 10:29:35 or any mmo. 10:30:31 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:30:34 v0|d, well, now you have a (slim) chance to meet me on aetolia.com as well, whether you choose flash/java or telnet ;) 10:32:21 :) 10:32:27 anybody tried quake live? 10:37:07 yop 10:37:11 works fine under linux 10:37:54 msca` [n=user@library2.wtamu.edu] has joined #lisp 10:39:12 legumbre [n=user@190.135.0.147] has joined #lisp 10:39:18 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:39:18 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [anthony.freenode.net 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your Okra restores my hope in humanity, tbh 12:30:04 I was steadily giving up hope of getting into world creation, with so many foundational things to build.. 12:39:30 blandest` [n=user@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 12:39:30 -!- blandest [n=user@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:39:57 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@wavelan-96.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has joined #lisp 12:43:39 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 12:44:56 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 12:45:09 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:01 dlowe [n=dlowe@63.107.91.99] has joined #lisp 12:46:29 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:30 -!- blandest` [n=user@85.204.33.242] has left #lisp 12:49:59 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:51:56 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 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13:16:26 -!- dysinger [n=tim@32.177.219.148] has quit [] 13:16:49 bhyde [n=Adium@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:52 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-204-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:45 Dear pretty printer, printing the list of method specializers (function t) as #'t is not entirely helpful. 13:19:32 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:20:07 hee 13:20:40 tcr has a fix for that. 13:21:08 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:21:34 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:21:55 jaws [n=jolyonw@124-168-253-144.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:21:59 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:47 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 13:23:19 (i don't know if that's actually true, but he has done a lot of pretty-printer things recently) 13:23:39 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:24:47 Xach: more charts than you can shake a stick at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/coders-at-work-charts/charts.html 13:25:05 Someday I'll have to go clean up the massive amount of cut-n-paste code I use to generate those into some kind of coherent library. 13:25:26 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 13:25:52 Meanwhile Coders's sales rank has been frozen since 10pm last night. I'm hoping that maybe means Amazon has actually received the books necessitating some sort of state change in their system. 13:26:18 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp033.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [No buffer space available] 13:26:59 gigamonkey: for thankyoumario i was surprised how little twitter contributed to traffic flow. reddit was about 100 times more powerful. 13:27:18 i got a plug from an account with 800,000 followers. not many clicks. 13:28:19 any shell guru around? willing to fix sbcl/run-sbcl.sh not to append an extra --core to the args if it is defined? opensource fairies, please, please, please... :) 13:28:50 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 13:29:12 Xach: I think sometimes twitter is more a lagging indicator--if you get good buzz somewhere else, you'll get a bunch of tweets. 13:30:06 prxq [n=mommer@e179050047.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:30:13 hi 13:30:19 So if you look at the basic Sales Rank graph, the spike at 8/10-8/11 was due to four reviews making it onto the proggit top 10 within a 24-hour period. 13:30:20 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has left #lisp 13:30:54 The spike at 8/20 was a review on O'Reilly Radar which was pretty massively retweeted (including by O'Reilly's bots, teehee). 13:31:13 And the biggest spike by far, around 9/3, was the Slashdot review. 13:31:32 So at least for books, Slashdot is still the 300-pound gorilla. 13:31:51 http://xach.com/tmp/wigflip.html has my referer chart 13:32:25 I like how your chart includes localhost. 13:34:04 deepfire: hey thanks :) are you actually using already? 13:34:35 gigamonkey: hmm, didn't notice that. it's not me. probably some local feed reader. 13:36:09 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 13:38:06 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslgk223.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:40:59 gigamonkey: will there be an ebook version of your new book? 13:41:32 boo, a mere 1 referral from soup.io 13:41:46 well, better than nothing 13:41:50 "where memes go to die" 13:42:18 heh 13:42:30 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 13:43:58 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:44:28 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:46:07 ol3: I believe so. 13:46:55 -!- ol3 [n=user@62.96.71.176] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:47:06 ol3 [n=user@62.96.71.176] has joined #lisp 13:47:53 ol3: yes. 13:48:15 There's a (password-protected) PDF you can buy from Apress now and there is supposed to be a Kindle version. 13:49:00 ah ok, but no pdf from amazon 13:49:26 Hmmm. SBCL seems to be reporting the source location of all COPY-x functions defined by DEFSTRUCT as sbcl-1.0.31/src/code/target-defstruct.lisp 13:49:35 ol3: does Amazon ever sell PDFs? 13:50:29 gigamonkey: don't know, but i thought because they are even selling mp3's 13:51:05 and kindle could display pdf files 13:51:24 ol3: kindle2 can't 13:53:20 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 13:54:30 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:08 HG` [n=HG@xdslgk223.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:56:42 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-17.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 13:57:02 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 13:57:14 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-17.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 13:57:31 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 13:57:33 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@pool-71-186-179-146.bflony.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:59:16 -!- idurand [n=idurand@chataigne.labri.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:01:30 Man. Graphviz rocks in many ways but the Dot language is teh suck. 14:02:29 *Xach* has often thought about adapting the algorithms 14:02:43 that'd be nice 14:02:43 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 14:02:48 (CLIMviz ;)) 14:02:49 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:03:18 gigamonkey: which part, actually? (and why are you not using/extending cl-dot to hide the dot language?) :) 14:04:04 -!- carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:04:19 carrl [n=carl@61.64.164.206] has joined #lisp 14:04:57 michaelw: because I'm too lazy. 14:05:08 bah :( 14:05:29 I'm presently annoyed by the kludge of using having a "cluster_" prefix in the name of a subgraph determine how it's treated. 14:05:29 add impatience and hubris, and you can be a perl programmer. 14:05:30 That's gross. 14:05:38 mstevens: used to be. 14:05:52 gigamonkey: ah yes 14:06:33 clusters would be a nice extension to cl-dot. 14:06:58 v0|d [n=user@213.232.33.243] has joined #lisp 14:07:00 The thing is, generating the dot file is not the hard part of what I'm doing. 14:07:17 Plus Donald Knuth himself told me, code reuse is overrated. ;-) 14:07:29 gigamonkey: did I remember to appreciate your book? it's pretty good. 14:07:43 yes, yes. Like that, cl-dot will never get out of its current Shivers state. 14:07:44 gigamonkey: overrated? 14:08:04 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:08:08 hah ha then all electronics market would have collapsed right? 14:08:56 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:09:51 mstevens: PCL? Thanks. 14:12:18 michaelw: here's what I'll try to do. If I ever decide to clean up my quick-and-dirty code, I'll look into using cl-dot to do it. 14:12:36 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:24 gigamonkey: where to for Brand Gigamonkey? Is it worth your while to do events promoting C@W? (Events like presentations to user groups etc.) 14:17:11 selected readings, with local yokels filling in for the celebrity interviewees? 14:18:27 splittist: Probably. I don't think I'm going on any big book tours but I'd be happy to speak to anyone who's interested wherever I happen to be. 14:18:39 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 14:18:46 Xach: Over the wire, of course - being interviewed about interviewing the interviewees... 14:19:06 I'm going to have to see if I can get invited to do another Google talk, given the number of subjects who now work at the Lazy G. 14:22:16 -!- bhyde [n=Adium@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:22:29 tagac [n=user@4.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:23:24 gigamonkey: Those charts of your sales rank--those are done with xach's vecto, right? 14:24:29 vecto wrote the pngs. all the pretty came straight from gigamonkey's noggin. 14:25:34 Cool. 14:25:52 gigamonkey: James Rumbaugh of Rational told us the same thing about code reuse. 14:27:52 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-36-251.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 14:28:00 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 14:28:50 wgl: Well Xach has been the official Graphical Taste Consultant par excellence 14:28:52 wgl: It's okay to build specialized tools from scratch and tailored to the particular situation, but it sucks having to start with blunt objects every time, then slowly working your way up to a hammer and a screw driver, etc. 14:29:46 michaelw: I think my new philosophy, just made up a few minutes ago, is to start with blunt objects until I figure out what tool I really need and *then* look around to see if there's a tool that does what I want. 14:29:47 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:29:59 -!- msca` [n=user@library2.wtamu.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:30:36 michaelw: Certainly. The context that I think is the most troublesome and what James Rumbaugh was referring to was enterprise level programming. And I think of your example as more of producing a tool rather than software reuse. 14:30:40 mscala [n=user@library2.wtamu.edu] has joined #lisp 14:30:52 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has joined #lisp 14:32:41 RauulSeixas [n=user5442@189-19-127-208.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 14:32:41 gigamonkey: I see you got another Dead Sexy reccomendation. 14:33:37 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:40 wgl: Yup. Xach has now stepped up to the category of literary allusion. 14:40:17 brad_ [i=48597c07@gateway/web/freenode/x-gkeragtbcuvdipzt] has joined #lisp 14:40:28 so sbcl or gnu clisp? 14:40:29 The other thing about reusable software is the Franz story about writing an NFS Server in lisp because it was too hard to configure the chamelion client for windows. 14:40:36 Demosthenes: for what purpose? 14:41:02 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:41:19 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:41:47 I have this suspicion that software reuse is related to an allergy to programming, which many enterprise-scale businesses seem to have developed. 14:42:16 why shouldn't we? Code is a cost. 14:42:17 Xach: general use ;] 14:42:36 drhodes [n=none@209-20-72-61.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:08 staff is a cost; production is a cost. No cost, no business. 14:43:59 GPL solved that problem. 14:44:03 i wonder if there is something "meeting reuse" for corporates. 14:44:17 they should invest more on resuing old meetings. 14:44:39 Demosthenes: i really like using sbcl and slime on linux. 14:44:58 v0|d: I have been in enough of the to feel like that is the case. 14:45:17 v0|d: isn't that Knowledge Management? 14:45:38 Xach: i use sbcl w/ slime atm.... i just noticed clisp on freshmeat and wondered if there were a difference that i'd notice. 14:45:43 :) 14:45:44 pkhuong: I am thinking that there is a similar cost to reuse. 14:46:36 Demosthenes: i don't think clisp is as well-supported in slime as sbcl. clisp has a nicer "naked" repl. clisp has more built-in libraries for useful tasks (like screen access). 14:47:06 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:47:07 Demosthenes: clisp does not compile to native code. clisp threading is comparatively new. 14:47:21 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:47:22 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:47:46 -!- tagac [n=user@4.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has left #lisp 14:47:49 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest71888 14:48:00 Xach: taht was the kind of feedback i was hoping for. ;] 14:48:02 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:48:06 doesn't sound like i need to bother. 14:48:12 given i just recompiled the latest sbcl 14:48:37 Demosthenes: you can start by reading the source of sbcl. 14:48:40 Demosthenes: :) 14:48:55 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-204-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:49:10 milanj [n=milan@77.46.224.72] has joined #lisp 14:49:35 gigamonkey [n=user@99.50.127.7] has joined #lisp 14:50:30 v0|d: *laugh* 14:50:45 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 14:51:20 gigamonkey: So in reading the summaries, it appears that you did these interviews in person. Somehow I had thought email. 14:51:32 that wouldn't be very sporting. 14:52:24 what happened to the clisp JIT compiler, BTW? 14:52:55 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:53:12 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:54:55 kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 14:54:58 wgl: Nope. All interviews done in person. I thought I might do some by phone but in the end I actually sat down with everyone. 14:55:00 ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 14:55:26 gigamonkey: how did you track down Donald Knuth? 14:55:32 Wrote him a letter. 14:55:48 doesn't he only reply once every 6 months? 14:56:05 Adlai: that xkcd cartoon is based on gigamonkey's experience... 14:56:37 splittist: link? I, unlike some geeks, do not have an xkcd-searching script anywhere 14:56:52 http://xkcd.com/163/ 14:57:55 Adlai: yeah, I don't know if I just got lucky and fell into the right part of his buffering window or if his secretary actually decided he should see my letter sooner. 14:58:00 -!- egosh [n=Miranda@62.148.132.110] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:58:11 Or maybe his buffering window is not quite as wide as he makes out on his web site. 14:58:27 -!- kerc [n=riise@31.84-49-151.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:58:45 well, (s)he probably considers book interviews more important than random fanmail 14:59:33 -!- Guest71888 is now known as lexa_ 14:59:54 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-249-36.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:03 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest80523 15:00:28 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:20 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 15:01:30 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:02:03 Greetings. 15:02:11 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:11 gigamonkey: Very cool. I am on the edge of my chair, waiting for it to arrive. 15:03:06 wgl: you and me both. 15:03:29 Does someone have a pointer to a library for properly handling DOS files on Unix in Lisp? I need to deliver the text files to the client with DOS CR/LF, but I perform the data processing on Unix. 15:03:32 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 15:04:04 So, when I read a line, there is a dangling #\Return character that is throwing a wrench in my processing code. 15:04:14 -!- nicktastique is now known as nicktastic 15:04:24 tmh: string-right-trim it? 15:04:44 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:05:25 tmh: you should be able to use external formats to control reading and writing conventions. 15:05:37 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #lisp 15:05:53 gigamonkey: when does it come out? 15:05:59 I thought Xof is still working on that? 15:06:02 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.43.130] has joined #lisp 15:06:15 gigamonkey: some keyword to WITH-OPEN-FILE? 15:06:41 <_3b> any good pointy-clicky tools for interactively rearranging stuff between git branches? 15:06:42 Lycurgus [n=Ren@pool-71-186-179-146.bflony.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:17 Ah, :external-format 15:07:17 <_3b> ah, maybe i can do it with gitk 15:07:20 _3b: stuff = commits? 15:07:25 gigamonkey: i find i have interesting overlap with Guy Steel's list of programming languages: cobol, fortran, ibm 1130 asm, pdp-10 asm,bliss, teco. 15:07:30 That's what I was looking for, RTFM, heh. 15:07:32 in which case, you indeed can do it with gitk 15:07:47 <_3b> Adlai: yeah, was just figuring that out :) 15:07:49 TECO! 15:07:55 _3b: check out the branch you want to cherry-pick commits to, and then in gitk you can right-click + "cherry-pick this commit" 15:08:18 <_3b> hopefully this stuff won't be too hard to clean up 15:08:45 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:08:49 TECO is almost as terse as J, and ten times as easy to read! 15:09:00 -!- jaws [n=jolyonw@124-168-253-144.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit ["Computer goes to sleep!"] 15:09:01 *_3b* needs to not leave major tree reorganization patches sitting around for long periods of time 15:09:50 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:10:05 <_3b> anyone care what i do with the gl3 support in cl-opengl? 15:10:07 -!- Guest80523 is now known as lexa_ 15:10:15 *_3b* assumes not since there was never any feedback on the original patch 15:10:25 I know the feeling 15:10:31 but I got 1 person on my mailinglist 15:10:36 for my oh so special lib 15:10:37 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest71652 15:10:39 So, where can I find the external formats for SBCL? 15:11:09 in the code. 15:11:14 ! 15:11:21 <_3b> (mapcar 'car SB-IMPL::*EXTERNAL-FORMATS*) ? 15:11:24 PissedNumlock: what library? 15:11:25 Xach: Sweet! 15:11:36 an interface to libproc on linux Xach 15:12:02 ah 15:12:02 not that hard to write, but it's the first time I'm working with CFFI 15:12:22 and my first time I really have to understand C 15:12:41 finalprefix [n=finalpre@59.162.86.164] has joined #lisp 15:12:42 although I had 'some' experience, but I wouldnt say copy/paste and edit the code a bit counts 15:12:49 with C that is 15:12:50 -!- finalprefix [n=finalpre@59.162.86.164] has quit [Client Quit] 15:13:00 finalprefix [n=finalpre@59.162.86.164] has joined #lisp 15:13:28 Adlai: any day now. 15:13:45 Officially this Friday but I'm told Amazon orders may arrive even sooner. 15:13:55 And I'm hoping that I'll get my box of books before then too. 15:17:21 -!- bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:17:53 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:17:56 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-247.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:18:59 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:20:05 -!- pdenno [n=pdenno@129.6.72.17] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:20:44 Is *external-formats* exported somewhere in SBCL? 15:20:56 tmh: I don't think so. 15:21:10 bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:22:04 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:22:19 Hmm, it's not obvious, to me at least, looking through fd-stream.lisp or external-formats/enc-dos.lisp what to specify for DOS files. 15:23:13 *_3b* didn't think sbcl supported dos files 15:24:32 *Makoryu* attempts to install linedit and goes mad from the revelation 15:24:47 The sane solution may be to convert the files to LF for processing, then convert them to CR/LF for delivery. 15:24:51 Hey folks, what should I be using instead of linedit? 15:25:01 (If I can't get it working) 15:25:17 Is SLIME the only alternative? 15:25:55 Xach: point Makoryu to your learning lisp blog entry. 15:26:14 sbcl indeed doesn't have support for line-ending conventions in its external formats 15:26:22 Makoryu: Read this -> http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/lisp-answers/ 15:26:25 (not on purpose, it's just that no one got around to implementing it) 15:26:39 tmh: Thanks 15:26:54 rudi: ok, thanks. I'll just convert the files to LF for processing and CR/LF for delivery, no big deal. 15:27:08 tmh: That's not mine, but it is a nice resource that I like. 15:27:22 Makoryu: clisp if you're not bound to sbcl and want a nice repl 15:27:41 -!- rudi [n=rudi@mail.ist.tu-graz.ac.at] has quit ["Client exciting"] 15:28:09 Xach: I realize that, it's just that I could remember your blog and not the other. 15:28:10 aerique: I'm not *bound* to SBCL but I used it when I was learning (about a year ago) and I'm used to its error messages 15:28:26 Also the menorah always makes me laugh and distracts me from whatever I was doing 15:28:50 many people use only the slime repl with sbcl 15:29:14 Makoryu: Specifically, look at the section "A: There is no Lisp IDE" It lists several editor options. 15:30:52 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-229-90-41.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:30:55 tmh: I'd rather just have a nice REPL than an IDE, but thanks 15:31:27 Makoryu: Those are not mutually exclusive requirements. 15:31:39 Makoryu: what OS are you on? 15:31:52 tmh: ¯\O_o/¯ 15:31:54 aerique: Mac OS X 15:32:43 (Snow Leopard, if it matters. Fink has been capricious since I upgraded) 15:33:57 Makoryu: My experience is that the best REPL are in Lisp IDE's. If you are on Mac, spend the time to look into CCL and it's IDE. 15:34:10 If I was on Mac, that's probably what I would use. 15:34:32 Clozure CL? 15:34:52 Hmmm. 15:35:12 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-17.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:35:16 Makoryu: yes -> http://trac.clozure.com/openmcl 15:36:48 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:37:18 -!- RauulSeixas [n=user5442@189-19-127-208.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit ["eject"] 15:37:56 Awesome, just tried to build CCL and got tons of compilation errors 15:38:03 Guess it hasn't been tested under SL yet 15:38:09 *Makoryu* gets a binary instead 15:38:12 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:16 Makoryu: Welcome to the wonderful world of open source software. What you don't pay for with money, you will pay for with time. I'm not criticizing, I'm just stating what most people seem to not appreciate. 15:39:47 tmh: No worries, I'm used to it 15:40:01 some finns get paid with money 15:40:52 well in my experience the free support on sbcl and ccl is much faster, better quality, and more reliable than the commercial lisps 15:41:25 if you have a compiler bug in one of those then good luck getting it fixed 15:41:34 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:42:09 Makoryu: I've used the precompiled binaries for CCL without any problems 15:42:23 Adlai: Yeah, they seem to be working fine 15:42:33 hmm, prompt.franz.com seems not to be responding :( 15:42:34 really? Franz has a good reputation on support 15:42:51 yes, they will send you a nice message explaining what the bug is 15:43:07 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 15:43:08 Heh, I would have tried the precompiled binaries in the first place. I'm getting to be an old foagie and avoid compiling stuff unless there is a compelling reason. 15:43:26 If you have a recent version of AllegroCL, can you tell me into what (in-package foo) expands? 15:43:42 *c|mell* only interacts with them at work 15:43:51 Makoryu: "clisp --quiet -ansi" gets rid of the menorah. 15:43:53 tmh: an Archer by any chance? 15:44:23 Adlai: You mean as in bows and arrows? 15:44:53 tmh: no, as in Archlinux user 15:45:20 -!- prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:45:22 Archlinux = gentoo without the compilation 15:45:32 Adlai: Ah, no. I use RHEL because it is a supported platform for commercial software I need for my job. 15:45:37 ie, the packages are compiled 15:45:52 ah. is rhel commercial? 15:45:55 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:46:01 Isn't gentoo without compilation == oxymoron? 15:46:06 (the "e" would suggest that, but you never know with the linux world) 15:46:16 deepfire: maybe it makes it better, like "garfield minus garfield" 15:46:28 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:46:35 deepfire: well you could say that the focus of gentoo is minimalism, rather than sitting around compiling for hours on end 15:46:38 Adlai: Last time I checked, they happily accept my money and I recently received emails that my subscriptions are up for renewal. 15:46:58 Xach, -EWRONGCULTURE :-) 15:47:09 Arch is a minimalist distro where packages hit your system precompiled. 15:47:42 So, slackware plus a half-decent package manager? 15:47:44 Xach: garfield is t3h ill shit 15:48:10 nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 15:48:32 kiko_ [n=user@67.207.130.53] has joined #lisp 15:48:57 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 15:49:02 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:49:29 -!- Guest71652 is now known as lexa_ 15:49:59 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest71620 15:50:18 -!- carrl [n=carl@61.64.164.206] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:50:29 carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has joined #lisp 15:50:59 ejs [n=eugen@249-25-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:51 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 15:54:48 -!- Guest71620 is now known as lexa_ 15:55:18 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest13660 15:57:05 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:00:10 -!- Guest13660 is now known as lexa_ 16:00:40 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest31749 16:00:57 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:04 -!- finalprefix [n=finalpre@59.162.86.164] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:03:26 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:04:30 do we have some usable lispy API on top of mmap available? 16:05:41 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 16:05:50 -!- Guest31749 is now known as lexa_ 16:06:20 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest86295 16:08:03 Ah, today is a beautiful day of American/European unity: 9/9/9 no matter how you write it. 16:08:31 i know someone who turns 99 today 16:08:32 Bah, I prefer the unambiguous 2009-09-09 16:08:32 ^^ 16:08:45 Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-091-141.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 16:09:31 tmh: you can never discount the possibility of someone out there writing dates: yyyy-dd-mm 16:09:42 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has quit [] 16:10:52 No, but yyyy-mm-dd is a format in ISO 8601. 16:10:57 -!- Guest86295 is now known as lexa_ 16:11:23 Sure. 16:11:27 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest45121 16:11:37 That doesn't stop people from being wilfully perverse though. 16:12:37 Then those people will experience the wrath of TMH! 16:13:27 I will wield ISO 8601 without mercy. 16:14:04 ISO8601 is really sharp and pointy 16:14:07 quite dangerous 16:14:16 especially since nobody who implements it actually has a copy of the spec. :) 16:14:25 finalprefix [n=finalpre@122.182.0.38] has joined #lisp 16:14:37 foom: You mean the Wikipedia page isn't the spec? 16:14:45 sellout [n=greg@pool-129-44-177-142.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:30 *Xach* got bitten slightly by postgres's claim to support ISO8601 as date input format 16:16:03 bobbob [n=billy@cpe-74-77-136-234.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:16:42 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 16:19:24 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:19:38 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:23:03 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 16:23:21 -!- mscala [n=user@library2.wtamu.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:23:31 mscala [n=user@library2.wtamu.edu] has joined #lisp 16:23:36 Probably when people say ISO-8601 they really mean something like http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-datetime 16:23:52 dysinger [n=tim@32.177.157.100] has joined #lisp 16:24:28 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.210.64] has joined #lisp 16:24:49 hi. has anyone used cl-opengl? im trying to find their api online 16:26:02 -!- Guest25572 [n=user@c-76-22-154-126.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:27:15 ooh someone was just talking about a patch for gl3 for that not too long ago .. *goes looking through scrollback* 16:27:23 _3b! 16:28:05 to be or not 3b 16:28:50 minion: tell bobbob about cl-opengl 16:28:50 bobbob: please see cl-opengl: cl-opengl is a set of CFFI bindings to the OpenGL, GLU and GLUT APIs. http://www.cliki.net/cl-opengl 16:31:06 minion: but using a ffi doesn't mean the function names are the same right? 16:31:07 what other connections do you see? 16:31:24 bobbob, minion's the bot :) 16:31:48 thought that was a bit quick :/ 16:32:09 bobbob: the function names are predictable, using lisp naming conventions 16:32:09 xristos, memo from luis: your email is bouncing, got another address? 16:32:51 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:32:52 bobbob, look in the source there should be big lists of exported symbols and such in the repo 16:33:18 im just learning opengl so im trying to translate the examples, so there's GLColor3f, then in lisp there's gl:color 16:33:46 GLColor means it takes 3 floats as args, im wondering if the lisp one can take any 16:33:46 did yo see the examples directory too? 16:34:11 #a 16:34:12 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-opengl/darcs/cl-opengl/examples/ 16:34:19 sorry about that. 16:34:22 yeah, im lookng at that now 16:35:09 _3b, and where's that gl3 you mentioned? 16:35:36 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 16:36:07 -!- Guest45121 is now known as lexa_ 16:36:20 bobbob: you do not need to specify number of arguments/type in cl-opengl 16:36:37 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest63882 16:36:48 also there is no gl prefix and you use - as separator instead of camel case 16:36:55 -!- Guest63882 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 16:36:56 i think that is it 16:37:09 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-091-141.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:37:34 various things in clbuild are compatible with each other at various revs. 16:37:43 xristos: thanks, the arg specifer at the end of the C functions was throwing me off 16:37:45 if anyone else has a similar issue, how did you handle it? 16:38:18 *Xach* makes a git repo for zpb-exif 16:40:04 right now I've run into a cl-json metatilities problem, and I know metatilities is depended on by hunchentoot, which I *don't* want to upgrade to 1.0 :-( 16:40:39 I wish I'd kept my clbuild under some meta-version-control! 16:42:56 -!- bubsy [n=Bubsy@94.139.72.137] has left #lisp 16:45:38 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:46:04 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@host148-131-static.28-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:49:18 nurv101 [n=nurv101@cidhcp132.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 16:49:26 -!- Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A67ED3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:49:49 nunb: wasn't yason the JSON library du jour? 16:50:43 in case someone wants to try one of the components in hu.dwim.wui (this is pre alpha) try http://dwim.hu/function/ 16:51:31 e.g. http://dwim.hu/function/common-lisp::list 16:52:05 it uses sb-introspect, pjb's reader, wui (cl-walker is on the way) 16:52:32 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 16:53:18 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:32 the tooltip pops up only the second time you stay over a symbol 16:53:39 ok, this is just a sample component 16:54:30 generic functions are also supported as http://dwim.hu/function/common-lisp::allocate-instance 16:55:03 the upstream is quite limited, so don't expect fast responses 16:55:04 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:55:56 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:56:03 levy_: the first thing i wanted to do was mouse over the popup, but it disappears right away 16:56:04 http://dwim.hu/class/hu.dwim.perec::persistent-class 16:56:07 this is also possible 16:56:15 Xach: heh, same here 16:56:29 Xach, do you man a popup on top of a popup? 16:56:40 this is somewhere before pre alpha... :) 16:56:42 levy_: i'm not sure what i expected to happen, but disappearing was not high on my list 16:56:46 that is doable 16:56:50 nothing complicated 16:57:02 -!- Ogedei [n=user@e178215223.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:57:43 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 16:58:37 <_3b> dcrawford: i sent a link to it to the cl-opengl list a long time ago, i'm rewriting (or at least reorganizing) it currently though 17:01:22 I need a set of objects which are not EQUAL; currently I use (defstruct tag). Anything more lightweight (memory-wise)? I don't think (gensym) is, FWIW. 17:01:44 Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has joined #lisp 17:01:58 Why wouldn't the symbols produces by gensym be unequal? 17:02:02 michaelw: (vector)? 17:02:52 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:54 -!- ol3 [n=user@62.96.71.176] has left #lisp 17:02:58 michaelw: also, depending on your implementation, (time (gensym)) and (time (make-tag)) would tell you what is more efficient. 17:03:01 Zhivago: (gensym) would work, I am looking for the least space 17:03:16 Adlai: well, wrapped in a loop perhaps 17:03:19 I know that on CCL, TIME is pretty precise with memory info 17:03:29 ah 17:03:33 michaelw: what does a loop have to do with this? 17:03:33 Why not use a nice integer? 17:03:34 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-kvsughyxnsryowcy] has joined #lisp 17:03:36 gigamonkey: Just received a notification from Amazon stating that Coders is delayed until Dec 30 - Jan 07. 17:03:58 Zhivago: using them for something else already, would work otherwise 17:03:59 Balooga: It's a hot item! 17:04:16 michaelw: yeah, Zhivago's suggestion would work if you're willing to keep a counter 17:04:24 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@cidhcp132.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:04:38 Balooga: are you in the usa? 17:04:50 Xach: Yes. 17:05:08 Why not use a list of one element, being a unique integer? 17:05:49 Xach: Los Angeles. 17:05:52 Zhivago: why a list? aren't any two distinct integers unEQUAL? 17:06:02 See his omment above ... 17:06:39 oh I see. 17:06:55 well, you could keep one global counter. 17:07:12 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:07:21 well, EQUAL descends into a cons, so I imagine that (equal tag-1 tag-2) would be faster if they are made by (make-tag) 17:07:47 anyway ,, I should perhaps start benchmarking 17:08:59 there are also project pages http://dwim.hu/project/alexandria also with reflection, but this is just a one hour hack 17:09:05 michaelw: it'd be faster with an integer, and you could use unique a counter globally. 17:09:20 also, I think (vector) would be faster than (make-tag) 17:09:28 Ah, literacy skills are in rapid decline. 17:09:37 Adlai: can't use a plain integer 17:10:10 emphasis on "globally" above, ie, you'd use the same uniqueness counter for the other places where you use integers so they wouldn't collide. 17:10:28 That might make arithmetic exciting. 17:10:38 (unless I misunderstood what you meant by "using them for something else already") 17:10:43 Zhivago: what do you mean? 17:11:18 -!- kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:11:23 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 17:13:00 seangrove [n=user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:29 Writing good documentation is hard. 17:14:01 Balooga: s/documentation/\*/ 17:15:33 Alternatively, s/good // 17:15:59 Writing well is hard (: 17:16:10 s/hard/difficult/ 17:16:33 redblue [i=star@ppp039.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:17:17 -!- merus [n=merus@pal-176-050.itap.purdue.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:18:19 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:24 whartung [n=willh@207.38.40.1] has joined #lisp 17:19:50 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 17:19:51 levy__ [n=levy@apn-94-44-0-116.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 17:20:01 heading out to watch soccer world cup qualifier... 17:21:59 savanni [n=savanni@216.166.58.176] has joined #lisp 17:22:12 -!- finalprefix [n=finalpre@122.182.0.38] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:22:36 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:24:10 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-176-48.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 17:26:45 what does a cffi:callback do that a regular function doesn't? 17:27:02 declares a C-accessible function 17:27:27 i see 17:27:52 Adlai: settled with (vector), counter also has the disadvantage that it can become a bignum 17:27:57 -!- ejs [n=eugen@249-25-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:28:37 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:21 michaelw: yep, and I think the struct would include type info even if you specified (defstruct (tag (:type vector))) 17:31:01 Adlai: the spec explicitly says the type info is lost, and SBCL loses it as well 17:31:33 I'm not actually sure if it'd be conforming to retain the type info in :type list and :type vector structs 17:31:43 clhs defstruct 17:31:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defstr.htm 17:32:10 mathrick: hmm, doesn't it still include the name of the "type"? 17:32:40 the type is list or vector, respectively 17:32:43 although that might be specific to whatever implementation I last dissected a :type-ed struct on 17:32:48 Adlai: try it, it doesn't 17:32:53 Adlai: nope 17:33:28 I mean that when I examined a struct that was (:type vector), it looked something like #(structname :slot1 foo :slot2 baz), iirc 17:33:58 you remember incorrectly 17:34:33 Adlai: that's for structs without a specified :TYPE 17:34:43 no, that would be #S(...) 17:35:48 adeht: are you sure that's not implementation-dependant? 17:36:01 is there some discussion of setf expanders vs. setf functions? 17:36:24 mathrick: we can have some right now if you want. 17:36:25 Adlai: yes.. it would detract much of its use if it was implementation-dependent 17:36:47 essentially, a setf function is a function, not a macro, and thus can't do fancy macro things. 17:37:14 conversely, setf expanders need to deal with the setf expansions and macro stuff 17:37:39 at least, that's my experience from writing a setf function, rewriting it as an extremely buggy setf expander, and then debugging it. 17:37:50 -!- savanni [n=savanni@216.166.58.176] has left #lisp 17:38:07 adeht: alright, I guess my memory is failing. Highly worrying. 17:38:16 tekGL [n=root@broadband-77-37-136-225.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 17:39:01 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.149.46] has joined #lisp 17:39:14 -!- levy_ [n=levy@apn-94-44-6-69.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:39:22 Adlai: aha, makes sense 17:40:24 mathrick: `getf' is a nice example of a setf expander 17:40:29 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:49 I'm further confused by the use of (defun (setf function) ...) and friends in relation to DEFSETF and DEFINE-SETF-EXPANDER. 17:40:52 setf expansions aren't too bad, though -- there are some examples in CLHS, and a few common utils that include examples (ie the PUSHEND macro) 17:41:28 tmh: do you mean what happens when you try to define both on the same symbol? 17:42:04 Adlai: No, I mean what uses justify a particular form of the definition. 17:42:35 it's also confusing that you can use DEFSETF, DEFINE-SETF-EXPANDER, DEFUN and DEFMETHOD 17:42:57 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:43:06 mathrick: defun and defmethod are the same in the sense that they both deal with (setf ) 17:43:07 mathrick: IIRC, there are even more ways 17:43:10 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:43:26 you can probably set the function directly, right? 17:43:32 that might be impl-dependant 17:43:37 michaelw: ouch 17:44:19 -!- tekGL [n=root@broadband-77-37-136-225.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has left #lisp 17:44:27 Adlai: yes, you can (setf (function-definition '(setf foo))) 17:44:28 IIRC, there were 18 ways to do it :) 17:44:38 -!- levy__ [n=levy@apn-94-44-0-116.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:44:55 *FDEFINITION 17:45:08 drewc: seriously, or are you just making numbers up? :) 17:45:14 drewc: that's what I remember, too, trying to find the page 17:45:33 kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:33 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Success] 17:45:51 ok, looks to me from a cursory glance at the relevant clhs pages that the long form of defsetf is the exact same as define-setf-expansion. Please correct me if I'm wrong. 17:45:54 http://web.archive.org/web/20051017024930/http://www.iscblog.info/blog/display/82 17:46:04 ha, beat me to it 17:46:17 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 17:46:41 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:43 Ugh, any guidance on when to use a particular method? Or are you just supposed to understand which method is appropriate based your years of accumulated lisp foo? 17:47:01 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-64-59.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:47:01 vu3rdd [n=user@122.166.144.57] has joined #lisp 17:47:12 tmh: use the simplest you can get away with 17:47:18 Looking over the list, it's obvious how some should be used. 17:47:21 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.224.72] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:47:44 michaelw: Oh, believe me, that has totally become my motto when writing lisp code. 17:47:46 tmh: what's the specific case? 17:48:01 drewc: good grief 17:48:15 well, some of them are obvious extensions of the toplevel declarations 17:48:27 btw, I'd count 19, because I'd count passing :method to defgeneric as another one 17:48:42 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:00 Adlai: Nothing specific, I just like to understand the variations so that when I'm faced with implementing it, I know which one to use. In every case, I either use a (defun (setf ...) ...) or :accessor for classes. 17:49:15 every case to this point in my coding. 17:50:09 Case 19 is absolutely pathological. 17:50:12 tmh: (setf ) fails when you want to be able to modify a place that wouldn't be modifyable when passed to a function. 17:50:40 hmmm I'd say 20 cases then. I didn't look at the numbers and took drewc's word for granted! 17:51:16 haha actually you could get another one by counting (setf *macroexpand-hook* ...) seperately too 17:52:00 pen1234 [n=19736@ppp-202-176-173-154.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 17:52:28 tmh: for example, look at my "alref" hack (a mostly-successful attempt to give a gethash-like alist interface) 17:53:01 you can't really modify in-place an alist passed to a function, because NIL is a valid alist. 17:53:32 ejs [n=eugen@50-69-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:43 I also have `agetf', which is a `getf' equivalent for alists 17:53:55 adeht: compare code? 17:54:09 http://github.com/adlai/alref 17:54:13 I borrowed some of it from sbcl's getf impl 17:54:15 Adlai: So? Write a setf-expander, not a setf function 17:54:25 tcr: yep, that's what I did. 17:55:12 Adlai: http://github.com/death/constantia/blob/5afd40fd0c0e07dc5cd95e81b303d7bfaaf6fcb1/misc.lisp 17:55:17 Adlai: you probably could with locatives: http://osdir.com/ml/lisp.sources.code/2004-06/msg00005.html 17:57:40 Adlai: *separately 17:57:58 mathrick: true true. 17:58:01 minion: thwap me 17:58:02 you speak nonsense 17:58:06 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:58:17 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 17:58:19 indeed, the minion has never been closer to the truth. 17:58:36 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C316.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:38 Adlai: what place is not modifiable when passed to a function that is not modifiable with a standard SETF? (defvar *place* 3) (setf *place* 5) is handled. 17:58:48 for example. 17:59:16 Uhm I do not understand the question 17:59:22 tmh: other way around. 18:00:11 Adlai: Then I don't understand the original statement. 18:00:45 tmh: you can't pass a (reference to a) variable to a function for example 18:00:46 tmh: some places which you might want setfable aren't accessible when passed to a function 18:02:09 -!- sellout [n=greg@pool-129-44-177-142.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 18:02:30 Adlai: I can't think of an example of that, I need some lunch. 18:02:46 Hunger is making me dense, more so than usual. 18:03:25 I guess your alref hack is the best example. 18:03:43 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:26 tmh: here's one, albeit a bit contrived 18:04:32 -!- ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:04:41 slime-autodoc used to be able to match on sublists and keywords 18:04:47 what happened? 18:05:11 let's say you decided to implement Xah Lee's "fons" (basically a 3-element cons cell that he "consed up" for an idiotic anti-cons rant) as a datastructure 18:05:29 weirdo: No, it did not use to 18:05:35 zeroish` [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 18:05:36 Climacs did 18:05:46 *tmh* now ponders that if we are referencing Xah Lee, the end of the world must be nigh. 18:05:58 naturally, you'd want to have the equivalent of () for fonses -- a fons whose car, cbr, and cdr all pointer to itself, and there's only one such fons globally. 18:06:08 yeah I know I know, it's the first example that popped into my head 18:06:20 (I read that rant yesterday...) 18:06:22 tcr, some old version, a long time ago, matched &key arguments separately instead of &args 18:06:57 Perhaps we're talking of different issues. Anyway, I rewrote autodoc. 18:07:12 It's not in yet, and sadly not comming soon 18:07:19 tmh: so if you want the "null fons" to be globally unique, you can't modify it when you try to setf the "car" of a variable which points to the null fons. Thus, you'd need a setf expander to modify the variable to point to a new fons. 18:07:40 this actually works for any datatype where you need a globally unique null value 18:07:53 "this" = this analogy 18:07:57 Adlai: Ok, I think I get it, thanks. 18:08:18 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 18:08:49 *Adlai* hopes he doesn't become associated with Xah and his fonses now 18:09:13 adeht: hi! Did you see http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/named-readtables.html already? 18:09:22 Adlai? You mean that Xah Lee nutrider? 18:09:36 Phoodus [i=foo@68.231.37.148] has joined #lisp 18:09:42 schme: yes... read the backlog to see why I fear that I might. 18:10:01 (: 18:10:02 I think I'm entering a new phase of my lisp journey where I realize that there are a myriad of subtleties in lisp usage and that you can't learn them all a priori. So, just be cognizant that they exist and address them when required. 18:10:32 Adlai: What on earth would fonses be good for anyway? 18:10:46 tmh: Many of them only make sense when you have a firm grasp of the total picture already 18:10:50 tcr: hey.. I think I saw named-readtables some months ago (I just got back from a 3 months vacation in Scandinavia, so not updated).. I have to go soon but will check it out again tomorrow 18:11:07 Climacs has the best parameter hinting! 18:11:14 schme: Xah Lee has an article where he rants about how conses are retarted 18:11:23 I'm surprised nobody adapted the code for SLIME, though. Maybe it's not that important. 18:11:26 -!- Athas` is now known as Athas 18:11:27 Athas`: I did 18:11:41 Adlai: That's.. wonderful. I will need to look this up :) 18:11:54 schme: don't, it'll boost his alexa ranking. 18:12:04 *schme* googles alexa 18:12:07 Athas: &key parameter highlighting, and nested arglist highlighting. The code needed almost to be rewritten that's the reason why it has not been done before 18:12:52 schme: basically, to save your eyes the trouble of reading his crap, he says that fonses are superior to conses because you can have ternary trees, which are better than binary trees... and by "induction", mathematica lists are better than conses. 18:13:07 Adlai: Cools. 18:13:16 and to sum it all up lisp is bloody stupid, eh? :) 18:13:18 tcr: what about really weird things like... uh... keyword args that are also nested arglists. Or some of the other keyword arg oddities. 18:13:33 I remember being horrified at how complex arglists CL permits. 18:14:06 schme: oh no, "Emacs Lisp has a chance of becoming great if it weren't for rms" -- guess who 18:14:21 -!- prxq [n=mommer@e179050047.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:14:43 ah yes. 18:14:54 We should kill the elisp right off. 18:14:55 Athas: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/hacks/slime/slime-snapshot-with-open-file.png 18:14:57 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:17 Though I guess it does bring some people over to CL 18:16:07 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 18:16:26 schme: climacs should be bringing people over to CL by being easier to use and better than Emacs. I'm in no position to complain though because I haven't even tried it. 18:16:28 Athas: The worst thing I tried it on is destructuring a list in a &key parameter ;) It handled it, so I'm confident about it. 18:16:49 -!- pen1234 [n=19736@ppp-202-176-173-154.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Client Quit] 18:17:54 tcr: that looks great! is it in slime trunk yet? 18:18:34 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:18:40 Adlai: No I did that at work, and the tree diverged quite a bit, and I don't have time for a merge. I'll give a lightening talk at ECLM about some of the stuff I did, though. 18:18:46 (featuring that screenshot) 18:18:54 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 18:19:52 Adlai: climacs.. is just the text editor though. We still need some org-mode and gnus :) 18:20:00 tcr: interesting... how much is the divergence? 18:20:01 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-30-32.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:20:43 Not that much, but I'll get lots of minor conflicts 18:21:01 schme: well, I guess include CLIM stuff in general there... we need more usable CLIM apps that people can bolt together like Emacs bloatware. Again, forget I said that, because I haven't even tried running a single CLIM app yet (maybe one -- Eli Weitz's regex coach) 18:21:17 ruediger [n=ruediger@91-115-30-29.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:21:26 uhm no that's a CAPI application using Lispworks 18:21:41 -!- Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has left #lisp 18:22:00 alright, so I officially have no right to complain about clim[acs]'s problems 18:22:05 -!- dysinger [n=tim@32.177.157.100] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:23:01 tcr: I'd be willing to try and merge it in, in that case. 18:23:05 Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A67ED3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:47 Thanks for the offer, but I committed wildly at work and I have to rearrange the commits to meaningful patch sets. 18:24:31 *Adlai* isn't afraid of patches -- he has (is?) a git. 18:28:22 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslgk223.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:28:54 dysinger [n=tim@166.129.231.59] has joined #lisp 18:30:17 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:30:22 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:32:39 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:52 Adlai: Yes. More CLIM apps would be very nice. :) I start some up every now and then.. then comes life and steals my coding time :) 18:33:18 -!- vu3rdd [n=user@122.166.144.57] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:34:26 pen1234 [n=19736@ppp-202-176-173-154.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 18:35:59 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:38:35 -!- kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:38:43 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:15 -!- thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:42:19 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:42:47 Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-088-005.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 18:44:00 *Adlai* would gladly work on a clim irc client, at some point. 18:44:24 Adlai: beirc is a very good clim irc client, if I may say so (: 18:44:55 antifuchs: hmm, I'll look into it. 18:45:10 and it urgently needs people to take care of it! 18:45:55 ahh. hmm. maybe. not now. 18:46:58 antgreen [n=user@bas2-toronto06-1177888317.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:47:02 tcr: screenshot looked good :) 18:47:20 if I have a loop pattern that goes like (loop for x in my-list for i below (length my-list) do ...), is there a better way to express that? 18:47:20 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:47:47 sykopomp: for i from 0? 18:48:04 *Adlai* thinks sykopomp is looking to not use LOOP there 18:48:15 Adlai: Isn't there already a McCLIM irc client? 18:48:52 oh yeah. http://common-lisp.net/project/beirc/ 18:48:58 Xach: yeah, I'm more exploring to see if there's a non-loop way to express it, since it's a pretty common pattern for me. 18:49:07 if there isn't that's fine. LOOP and I, we're bros. 18:49:17 schme: yes. divert your eyes a few degrees upwards (exact number of degrees may vary based on screen resolution, font size, and distance between face and screen) 18:49:36 antifuchs: what do you like about beirc, anyways? 18:49:36 ehm.. 18:49:43 Adlai: yes I see now. 18:49:59 Adlai: problem is that you /me'd and that got yer name with a * and highlighted so it stuck out :D 18:50:05 sykopomp: Maybe you need ITERATE (: 18:50:06 sykopomp: indeed, if you list doesn't change of length it would be better to count from 0. But do you really need an index? 18:50:11 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:50:11 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:50:30 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-98-245-87-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:50:36 (loop for item in list for index from 0 collect (cons index item)) 18:50:38 schme: yeah, iterate would do it quite nicely with generate, but I can't have it as a dependency. 18:50:48 too bad :( 18:51:09 pjb: that's a good point, yeah. 18:51:15 http://www.thaiadpoint.com/tap8.1/bin/redir.php?p=2042&l=1357&u_id=363435 18:51:47 -!- ejs [n=eugen@50-69-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:52:08 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-98-245-87-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:25 tagac [n=user@4.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:52:31 Demosthenes [n=demo@204.52.135.62] has joined #lisp 18:52:31 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 18:52:49 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:54:11 http://www.thaiadpoint.com/tap8.1/bin/redir.php?p=2042&l=1357&u_id=363435 18:54:40 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-36-251.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:55:22 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86.124.78.239] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:56:30 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 18:56:53 -!- pen1234 [n=19736@ppp-202-176-173-154.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [K-lined] 18:56:59 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 18:57:53 -!- seangrove [n=user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:58:18 seangrove [n=user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:34 kerc [n=riise@31.84-49-151.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:03:39 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:03:42 rwiker [n=rwiker@73.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:03:48 sykopomp: that it behaves the way I expect (: 19:04:16 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:09:08 antifuchs: is it click-heavy? I hate interfaces that require me to click for anything :\ 19:09:21 Balooga. Weird. As far as I know it's been printed and should be on the way. Can you forward me that message? 19:09:35 Whoops. He's gone. 19:09:36 sykopomp: not really. there are / commands and stuff. you can click on nicknames and urls, of course, and get useful results 19:09:57 sykopomp: but it's as click-heavy as a clim app with a command reader has to be (meaning, not very) 19:10:21 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:32 antifuchs: keybindings? 19:10:43 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:10:47 M-x kick-jerk 19:10:59 Adlai: ctrl-pgup/dwn for next channel, and I think there's one for "next with unread messages", too 19:11:11 Ziadas [n=user@91.177.132.75] has joined #lisp 19:11:23 what about C-a M-d etc? 19:11:27 antifuchs: can I just move a cursor to a URL to open it, or must I click? 19:11:28 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:11:30 Anyone else here get emails from Amazon about Coders at Work being delayed? 19:11:43 seangrov` [n=user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:55 Adlai: all clim input editor keys are supported 19:11:57 -!- Ziadas [n=user@91.177.132.75] has left #lisp 19:11:59 how about trying it (: 19:12:06 antifuchs: ah, ok, I'll have to try it I guess. 19:12:12 at some point. maybe. not now. 19:12:18 merus [n=merus@pal-176-050.itap.purdue.edu] has joined #lisp 19:12:29 -!- seangrov` [n=user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:12:29 -!- seangrove [n=user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:12:56 seangrove [n=user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:10 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@d142-058-088-005.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:13:12 (-: 19:15:33 francogrex [n=user@91.177.132.75] has joined #lisp 19:16:36 rpg [n=rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has joined #lisp 19:17:05 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:17:12 jao [n=jao@214.Red-88-6-174.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:05 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 19:18:22 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 19:18:32 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit [Client Quit] 19:18:33 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-71-68.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:19:25 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:19:55 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:21:26 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.247.98] has joined #lisp 19:22:46 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:23:09 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:23:15 Guys, for interfacing with C, do you encourage one to use CFFI over UFFI? 19:23:23 yes 19:23:26 francogrex: I encourage one and all 19:24:02 ok 19:24:26 for any particular reason? is it better developed maintanied etc 19:24:43 afaik it's better maintained 19:24:47 yup 19:25:06 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:25:15 francogrex: I think it also works with more implementations 19:25:42 -!- rwiker [n=rwiker@73.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:26:42 ok good reasons for me. I'll install it 19:27:09 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 19:27:41 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 19:27:52 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-71-68.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:27:57 I don't suppose I'll need to install cffi-grovel.asd as well 19:29:27 needs babel 19:29:59 rodt [n=rodt@80-45-96-105.static.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 19:30:10 hi :) 19:30:24 hi 19:30:42 paw` [n=paw`@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:31:43 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:31:50 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:30 -!- easyE [i=[0w9tJXu@panix3.panix.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:32:44 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-43-122.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:32:56 -!- rodt is now known as rodot 19:34:37 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:35:19 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has joined #lisp 19:39:17 josemanuel [n=josemanu@227.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:39:35 younder [n=jthing@251.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:39:47 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:54 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 19:43:57 char-digit-p.. talk about bad naming! (char-digit-p #\a 16) -> 10 etc.. 19:45:13 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:45:45 younder: 10 is a valid true value 19:46:55 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-78-239.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 19:47:03 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:48:03 younder: generalized booleans. Assuming you're talking about digit-char-p, then the result is the weight. 19:48:06 see... 19:48:11 clhs digit-char-p 19:48:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_digi_1.htm 19:48:38 true, but the true purpose is to convert char digits to integers, returning nil if it is not legal digit. Not to test if it is a legal digit 19:49:00 younder: note the "-p" -- it's a predicate. 19:49:05 younder: then it would've been called char-digit, which is not that far off 19:49:17 er 19:49:18 younder: it's a predicate. char-code and code-char are the conversion functions. 19:49:20 I know of generalized boolean, I just find the name misleading 19:49:50 younder: CL isn't exactly known for consistent naming conventions 19:50:06 younder: it's a predicate. It seems perfectly consistent in this case. 19:50:09 its an amalgamation of various 80's lisps and people wanted it to be as compatible as possible back in the day 19:50:11 younder: there's also digit-char, you know. 19:50:25 clhs digit-char 19:50:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_digit_.htm 19:51:17 slava: indeed. T and ISLISP are better in that respect 19:52:01 I'm fond of clojure myself 19:52:24 arc is also pure 19:52:30 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.129.231.59] has quit [] 19:52:42 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.177.132.75] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:52:46 as you're well aware though arc is useless 19:52:54 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:57 slava: but look at its interface, it's so consistent! :) 19:52:57 Xach: Arc has "surprisingly elegant [code]", right? :P 19:53:09 slava: great language, tbh. 19:53:13 dysinger [n=dysinger@166.129.231.59] has joined #lisp 19:53:18 hmm its confusing writting code as it runs... 19:53:21 slava: as you're well aware, we all luuuurve Arc and pg here. 19:53:48 whats pg or arc ? :P 19:53:56 pg is an earlier dialect of arc 19:53:59 rodot: paul graham, and arc the language. 19:54:01 slava: ROTFL 19:54:11 slava: a very unfortunate dialect 19:54:15 ah heh 19:54:19 also knows an GH 19:54:24 minion: graham crackers? 19:54:24 graham crackers: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html 19:54:36 rodot: unless you're working with multiple threads, you're not really doing that. Think of it as writing bits of your program and testing them interactively as you write each piece. 19:54:53 sykopomp: "GH"? 19:55:04 Adlai: graham crackers. 19:55:19 hmm i lost count all all the threads.... 19:55:38 rodot: if you find CL confusing, are you sure you should be working with threads? 19:56:00 its not cl, its a lisp dialect of sorts tho 19:56:47 //topic 19:57:01 *Adlai* wonders how people send literal command strings 19:57:21 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:57:23 i cant , not implemented yet, im writting this... 19:57:49 Adlai: spacebar+/command :) 19:57:52 /topic 19:58:02 /topic 19:58:07 sykopomp: not always... 19:58:08 just "//topic" 19:58:12 (x-chat) 19:58:13 //topic 19:58:16 doesn't work here 19:58:19 ERC :( 19:58:27 Adlai: hence, spacebar 19:58:45 *Adlai* should write erc-command-/ 19:59:02 good night 19:59:09 g'night 19:59:10 -!- serichsen [n=svante@hmbg-4d06cc48.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:01:45 i should prolly replace the "pong" button lol 20:02:05 rodot: ? 20:02:31 on this client lol, so i dont have to keep an eye open for the pings... 20:04:46 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-17-230.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:05:27 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 20:06:02 -!- rodot is now known as rodt 20:06:33 -!- seangrove [n=user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:07:07 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-17.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 20:07:21 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@32.159.60.101] has joined #lisp 20:09:50 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:11:21 /topic works well in erc here. Just avoid any space before the / 20:11:43 pjb: other way around... I was trying to send "/topic" into the room 20:11:59 Then put a space before ;-) 20:12:37 minion: topic? 20:12:38 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``topic''. 20:12:39 hm 20:13:07 /topic is a standard IRC command, honored by the IRC server. 20:13:28 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:14:31 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:16:56 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:18:25 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.43.130] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:19:51 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@227.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:20:58 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-43-122.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:21:49 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 20:22:49 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.247.98] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:22:53 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 20:23:26 seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:11 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:24:12 -!- nvoorhies_ is now known as nvoorhies 20:24:18 -!- rapacity [n=prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:24:22 rapacity [n=prwg@li30-188.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:24:43 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:24:55 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:10 -!- rapacity [n=prwg@li30-188.members.linode.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:25:31 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:27:05 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:28:26 HG` [n=HG@xdslgk223.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:29:32 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:33:50 francogrex [n=user@91.177.132.75] has joined #lisp 20:35:17 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.177.132.75] has left #lisp 20:35:40 Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 20:38:17 -!- jao [n=jao@214.Red-88-6-174.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:38:36 -!- paw` [n=paw`@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [] 20:39:08 gws [n=g@w005.z209031033.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:09 Where am I supposed to place ASDF system files? 20:40:27 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslgk223.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:40:53 in a directory present in asdf:*central-registry* 20:41:10 reading the manual helps ;p 20:41:40 slash_: usually, you add relevant directories to the registry in your Lisp's rc file 20:42:22 guille_ [n=user@168.Red-81-33-184.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:24 hi there 20:42:48 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:18 http://labs.core.gen.tr/#index wow this looks snazy 20:44:27 composable data streams? what in the f are those? 20:44:28 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:44:54 rapacity [n=prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #lisp 20:46:06 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:46:08 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 20:46:26 merus_ [n=merus@pal-176-050.itap.purdue.edu] has joined #lisp 20:46:29 how do you concatenate two quotes? 20:46:33 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:38 (or n by the way) 20:47:11 guille_: can you give an example? your question is very unclear 20:47:11 quotes? 20:48:23 -!- tagac [n=user@4.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["/* */"] 20:48:26 guille_: two strings? You use the concatenate function 20:48:41 i'm defining foreign libraries whose names shares a prefix, so I'd factor code passing {prefix}{whatever} 20:49:14 -!- rodt [n=rodt@80-45-96-105.static.dsl.as9105.com] has left #lisp 20:49:26 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:50 (intern (format nil "~a~a" 'prefix whatever) 'package) 20:50:38 guille_: when dealing with foreign libraries like that, I tend to prefer making the prefix a package of its own. 20:51:05 so something like GL_foo would be gl:foo 20:52:32 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-73-210.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:52:36 I guess there's some debate as to whether you want to rename your library's symbols to be more lispy, or expose an interface as similar as possible to C 20:53:01 i guess you want to do both for complex libs 20:53:18 for something like opengl, you don't want to call the C APIs directly anyway 20:53:44 slava: I tend to prefer having a lower-level %foo version of the API that is more directly related to the C version 20:53:49 then I wrap -that- with more lispy bindings. 20:53:58 rvirding [n=chatzill@h6n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:54:10 slava: hmm. why not? i do that right now, but i use #_glFoo in the lisp code. 20:54:32 hypno: it depends on how complex your gl code is, I guess. 20:54:39 if you're just using gl 1.x features then the complexity is manageable 20:54:53 as soon as you start messing with vertex buffers, shaders, and so on, you really want a higher level directX-like API 20:54:55 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 20:55:13 thank you. by now i'll stick interning symbols, actually it's a tiny library 20:55:42 slava: ah, yes. it gets hairy quick, true. :) 20:56:30 JayK [n=jakob@dslb-088-074-199-204.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:15 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@63.107.91.99] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:58:59 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:35 -!- legumbre [n=user@190.135.0.147] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:00:08 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 21:00:19 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:16 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-69-107-65-28.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:11 RauulSeixas [n=user5442@189-19-127-208.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 21:06:56 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-36-251.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:11:58 -!- Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A67ED3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.2/20090729211433]"] 21:12:29 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-24.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:13:10 Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:09 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-78-239.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:15:15 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:15:16 -!- RauulSeixas [n=user5442@189-19-127-208.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:17:51 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:18:04 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:35 Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has joined #lisp 21:20:04 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:20:37 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:21:09 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:22:06 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:22:09 -!- JayK [n=jakob@dslb-088-074-199-204.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 21:22:22 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 21:22:34 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:59 -!- antgreen [n=user@bas2-toronto06-1177888317.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:24:06 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-zedkdkhrfpzovrcj] has joined #lisp 21:24:37 gigamonkey: Forwarded to peter@gigamonkeys.com 21:24:59 -!- Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has left #lisp 21:25:59 -!- guille_ [n=user@168.Red-81-33-184.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:26:02 -!- merus_ [n=merus@pal-176-050.itap.purdue.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 21:28:00 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:45 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:29:57 emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:51 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-24.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:32:41 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-24.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:32:55 -!- rpg [n=rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:35:35 sundar_ [n=IMeMysel@122.175.76.233] has joined #lisp 21:36:15 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit ["dinner"] 21:36:53 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:38:30 *attila_lendvai* stares at the code in slime head and just doesn't understand the intents... 21:38:51 like why on earth was *inspector-printer-bindings* removed? 21:40:54 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:41:21 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-17.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 21:41:32 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:43:06 -!- nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:44:07 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:45:22 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:45:26 -!- emacsphan [n=user@plmomi-l10-340.dsl.tds.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:46:17 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:50:14 -!- milanj- [n=milan@79.101.149.46] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:50:43 seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 21:51:44 since a typical language parser creates an abstract syntax tree (which is like S-expressions) ....doesn't it seems like all parsers basically just "convert" arbitrary languages to lisp? 21:52:28 you'd think it'd be a wise implementation policy to implement languages in lisp first and foremost 21:52:56 Ogedei [n=user@e178210006.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:53:55 yes i realize many people do DSL's in lisp 21:54:05 seb-, yup. haskell was first written in Lisp. 21:54:13 tic: really? interesting 21:54:15 good language playground. 21:54:27 smalltalk too IIRC ? 21:54:30 (or if it was miranda) 21:54:31 seb-: people would be bitching and moaning about () too much, but there is at least one book about languages (Design Concepts in Programming Languages) that use s-exp syntax for its simplicity, so they can concentrate on concepts :) 21:54:58 schme. No. Smalltalk was first implemented in BASIC. 21:55:03 and lisp-likes make a fantastic language playground indeed 21:55:13 gigamonkey: Thanks. I must have been misinformed :) 21:55:18 sykopomp: i have a copy of that book right next to me :)...that is what motivated the question! 21:55:20 (but BASIC was first implemented in lisp ;) ) 21:55:29 seb-: I freakin' love that book. 21:55:35 schme: no way 21:55:35 sykopomp: i.e. they basically used S-exps for their AST notation 21:55:36 Dan Ingalls says if he had actually learned Lisp he probably never would have helped invent Smalltalk. 21:55:42 sykopomp: of course not (: 21:55:48 gigamonkey: that would've been a real shame :) 21:55:51 schme: you scared me :( 21:55:58 sykopomp: sorry :( 21:56:00 seb-: javascript was originally in CL, as well. 21:56:08 gigamonkey, do you have a Dan Ingalls interview in CaW? 21:56:13 tic: Yup. 21:56:15 the question is, why isn't javascript _still_ implemented in CL :) 21:56:18 but as the tclisp meeting people put it "That's not really something CL should be proud of" 21:56:26 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 21:56:34 gigamonkey, awesomeness. hope I'll be able to buy it from Sweden soon.... 21:56:34 Linux also said that if he had known of the open-source BSD Unixes, he'd never have worked on his own 21:56:50 who's Linux? 21:57:06 *gigamonkey* is still trying to figure out why Amazon is telling folks Coders has been delayed. 21:57:17 slava: because CL isn't close enough to assembly, probably :) 21:57:19 *linus 21:57:39 sykopomp: CL is compiled to machine code. 21:57:39 the tclispers crowd is pretty disappointing 21:57:44 they're all middle age and stuck in the 80's tech wise 21:57:48 sykopomp: unless you have a CPU whos "assembly" is a baby lisp :) 21:57:55 slava: at least they're nice people, and pleasant to talk to. 21:58:09 slava: I'd rather have that over an aggressively scrutinizing, hostile crowd. 21:58:17 I've been in both environments. 21:58:24 they seemed pretty insecure and constantly making jabs at java and C++ etc 21:58:32 like "look at us we're so smart why is nobody using our language" 21:58:34 There are people who are in real life like in IRC? 21:58:38 Im trying opensolaris after archlinux and netbsd and freebsd 21:58:39 slava: perl people make jabs at python 21:58:40 pretty cool 21:58:41 slava: jerks are uninteresting. 21:59:01 why is python more popular than common lisp? 21:59:09 if it is less powerful? 21:59:11 because its better for the things that most people do 21:59:21 so its more powerful than cl? 21:59:36 gws: a better question is why isn't python implemented in CL!? ;) 21:59:37 gws: its less powerful as a language but it has more/better libraries 21:59:39 it's easier to read and immediately understand what's going on, which is the main priority for some tasks 21:59:54 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 22:00:02 seb-: I think someone did implement python in cl 22:00:10 schme: there's two of them. 22:00:10 schme: oh yea..n/m then 22:00:25 oh gosh. 22:00:33 sykopomp: anyone done python in scheme yet? 22:00:35 schme: python-on-lisp and cl-python. 22:00:57 sykopomp: ruby user gorups tend to be more fun 22:01:09 slava: they tend to be hipster jackasses, in my experience 22:01:20 but I guess "fun" is as arbitrary as "well designed" :) 22:01:23 sykopomp: at tclispers I think most people even admitted they don't use lisp at work 22:01:24 -!- sundar_ [n=IMeMysel@122.175.76.233] has quit ["Nothing ever lasts... except Truth and Love"] 22:01:25 We all know forth user groups are the best. :P 22:01:28 sykopomp: at least they "test all the fucking time" 22:01:35 Adlai: ALL THE FUCKING TIME! 22:02:09 the combination of thinking about testing all the time and a dynamic language always surprised me 22:02:21 sykopomp: i got a balsy project for you...implement C in CL :) 22:02:29 seb-: why bother? 22:02:39 seb-: too late 22:02:41 Just because I always think of the main advantage of dynamic languages being flexibility when I don't really know fully what I'm building 22:02:57 because 21st century Lisp Machines will need a C compiler for "legacy code"... 22:03:09 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:03:16 nvoorhies: there's something to be said about having a solid test suite to check changes in your code again, specially in dynamic languages where running a test suite is an interactive process. 22:03:21 (along with a FORTRAN compiler, and a C++ compiler, and a JVM...) 22:03:23 and testing when you don't know what you're building yet ends up being a lot of needless work that gets thrown out 22:03:30 nvoorhies: but I agree that being test-obsessed is an annoyance when rapid-prototyping. 22:03:31 Adlai: and a Mono thing :) 22:03:38 yeh 22:03:39 schme: "Mono"? 22:03:40 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-98-248-37-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:03:44 20th century Lisp Machines already had a C compiler 22:03:47 Adlai: the C# thingie ? 22:03:51 nvoorhies: writing unit tests is a good way to figure out what an API shoudl look like in my experience 22:03:53 nvoorhies: you eventually want a stable system, though. Or at least semi-stable. 22:04:06 or CLI thingie. I dunno. Mono is what one uses on non-windows :) 22:04:07 *Adlai* hasn't had to hack MS Blub, yet, but the day will probably come. 22:04:10 nvoorhies: also writing docs 22:04:17 nvoorhies: if docs and tests are hard to write, its time to redesign the library :) 22:04:21 Adlai: F# is pretty darned nice :) 22:04:25 slava: slows down code too much the first time around, in my experience. It varies depending on your approach, I guess. 22:04:42 I like "write tons of code you intend to throw away first, then stabilize the API based on what you learned" 22:04:43 I mean I used to do processor architecture, and that's like 1 year of coding a reference implementation, and 3 years of testing, so I know how much it's worth as well as anyone 22:04:45 jaws [n=jolyonw@124-168-253-144.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 22:04:45 schme: not when your primary word association for F# is "Dr Frog"!!!! 22:05:14 But some of it seemed to be kinda cargo-cultish, just sorta "it makes the space shuttle SW stable so it must be a good idea for my website" 22:05:42 slava: Writing unit tests? Perhaps the last details, but you actually should think of two, or three as different as much use cases for your library 22:05:58 nvoorhies: most of modern dynamic programming is just cargo cult crap from us lispers, anyways (amirite) 22:06:13 Adlai: Dr.. Frog? 22:06:18 nvoorhies: it makes software much more stable, that's certain 22:06:26 nvoorhies: especially if you combine with continuous integration 22:06:35 slava: not necessarily. If anything, it makes you trust tests too much. 22:06:38 sykopomp: I get an impression that some people forget that it's just as easy to have a bug in your tests as it is to have a bug in the tested code, also 22:06:54 so suddenly, one corner case gets around your test, and you're left there scratching your head "because the unit test passes!" 22:07:02 sykopomp: that's a straw-man 22:07:02 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:07:17 well, there's an essential difference between stability because things are reaching a near-optimum, and stability because change is onerous though 22:07:18 slava: it's happened to me. It's not exactly something I'm pulling out of my ass. 22:07:23 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-75.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:07:36 nvoorhies: having to maintain and update unit tests for a new interface is the most obnoxious task ever, too. 22:07:38 sykopomp: just because tests pass doesn't mean there are no defects 22:07:39 slava: that's happened to me hundreds of times 22:07:39 that's not the point 22:07:45 tests help you catch regressions, and spec out an API 22:07:48 slava: the unit tests themselves can be buggy. 22:07:53 schme: where Xah Lee is the demented unfortunate raving his tortured mind out in c.l.l, this guy is the glib salesman hawking his goodz in c.l.l. See http://www.ffconsultancy.com/ 22:07:56 sykopomp: sure, but that doesn't negate their utility 22:08:11 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-247.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:08:16 slava: I'm saying I dislike them for initial implementations, and I don't even trust them that much once I've actually written a test suite. 22:08:20 they're 'nice' 22:08:23 and 'handy' 22:08:29 not 'omg world ends if I don't have them' 22:08:38 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-24.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:08:41 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 22:08:55 sykopomp: well, I woudln't write anything non-trivial without tests, but I don't blindly trust them either 22:08:58 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-75.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:09:10 there's something to be said for static analysis and good code design too 22:09:39 slava: I would prototype an entire thing first, then scrap it and write the second system with unit tests :) 22:09:55 slava: if I wanted static analysis for every phase of a project, I'd code in haskell. 22:09:58 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-75.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:10:07 I like to write tests first sometimes :) 22:10:09 Adlai: ooh that.. yes yes.. He is hawking that everywhere :) 22:10:15 they have pretty much close to all the benefits and drawbacks of doing 2 implementations, and in my experience it's the same kinda judgement call about whether and when they should be used 22:10:16 then write code that makes the tests pass, then write more tests, then clean up the code 22:10:21 slava: that's fine when you're perfectly familiar with a problem. 22:10:25 it's terrible when you're exploring. 22:10:26 RauulSeixas [n=user5442@189-19-127-208.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 22:10:28 it's awful, actually. 22:10:33 sykopomp: actually it works best when I don't know how to implement something 22:10:39 schme: he's doctor frog and he's leaping into your inbox today! 22:10:42 I get it working piecemeal 22:10:49 Adlai: ocaml for scientists is a good book though (: 22:10:58 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:11:03 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:11 slava: different experiences, I guess. 22:11:13 there's an ocaml for scientists? 22:11:16 schme: you bought his books~? 22:11:17 !? 22:11:18 Adlai: I guess I am lucky that I do not have newsserver access, so no cll. 22:11:21 I'd seen F# for scientists 22:11:21 there's a lot of arbitrary decisions based on taste, anyways :) 22:11:21 Adlai: I have that book. 22:11:22 nvoorhies: http://www.ffconsultancy.com/ 22:11:34 nvoorhies: Yup. 22:11:34 *Adlai* has to be very careful else he post that link more than the frogman has 22:11:34 sykopomp: I get the impression you lisp people don't actually write any code, you just talk about how great lisp is :) 22:11:40 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:49 hehehehe 22:11:55 ah, ok. After seeing F# it seemed like a weird gap 22:12:03 sykopomp: ask any commercial developer about TDD 22:12:03 weird gap? 22:12:06 slava: half the channel is blushing hard right now. :) 22:12:15 slava: TATFT 22:12:23 slava: ALL THE FUCKING TIME 22:12:36 nvoorhies: F# is to OCaml as C# is to Java 22:12:52 aka, it's the Microsoft imitation 22:13:00 slava: funny you should say that while sitting in #lisp criticizing lispers for spending too much time on talking about lisp and too little time coding. 22:13:05 Adlai: You are aware that microsoft is funding a lot of ocaml? :) 22:13:13 Adlai: yeah, so it seemed weird that some scientist types would be on that bandwagon rather than having moved over from ocaml 22:13:44 schme: I guess my analogy is a bit broken, then. 22:13:45 sykopomp: right, one should write code 24 hours a day 22:13:49 F#'s main advantage over ocaml is that it supports concurrency 22:13:54 stassats: my point, yes. 22:13:54 stassats: yes! 22:14:01 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:14:02 other than that its almost the same language 22:14:04 Honestly I hope that the TDD movement leads to a lot stronger static analysis tools coming into widespread use 22:14:13 doesnt it have like orders of magnitude more and better integration abilities too? like visualization, etc? 22:14:25 yes, you get to call into the .net libraries 22:14:44 i got the impression Harrop has been dissing ocaml in favour of f# for the simple reason that .net has more to offer. 22:15:15 hypno: I've heard some horror stories about trying to get inria to accept packages too 22:15:30 nvoorhies: ocaml has no library community to speak of 22:15:43 er, patches I meant 22:15:51 nvoorhies: ah, yeah. (not the least from harrop himself :) 22:15:59 Amanda [i=afolson@208.68.18.179] has joined #lisp 22:16:30 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:16:48 cool thing about ocaml though is the simple compiler generates really good code considering it does almost no optimizations 22:16:54 Some friends were trying to use it but had to ditch running yahoo's whole ad-selection back end on it because inria was so obstinate about some bugs when you tried to compile it as a 64 bit linux executable or something 22:17:40 that was close to 5 years ago, maybe the culture has changed some 22:18:00 slava: but the language itself reads like.. um dogshit. it's like erlang: great in many ways, except the code is buttuggly. 22:18:20 hypno: erlang is super sexy code. It almost looks like prolog :D 22:18:34 I kinda like ML's syntax 22:18:38 hypno: I think semantics are more important than surface syntax 22:18:43 schme: prolog almost looks like math. Math may be beautiful, but it's not sexy. 22:18:53 It is nice to hear lispers comlain about ugleeh syntax :) 22:19:02 Adlai: I see you have not the same perversions as me ;) 22:19:08 lisp gives me the creepy feeling that I'm debugging a parser 22:20:10 schme: at least we have a similar abstract aesthetic. You can go have whatever perversions you like as long as we agree that e^(i*pi)+1=0 is more beautiful than for(i;i++;i Adlai: much agreed :) 22:21:23 why does (if window-system (color-mode-blah) (color-mode-bleh)) 22:21:23 not work ? 22:21:26 ups 22:22:55 Adlai: what? you are comparing some odd and uggly expression of eulers formula, to a for loop? :) 22:23:58 hypno: I see that we share some aesthetic sense too... 22:24:40 -!- brad_ [i=48597c07@gateway/web/freenode/x-gkeragtbcuvdipzt] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:31:51 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:32:15 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 22:33:28 -!- Ogedei [n=user@e178210006.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:34:10 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:48 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-31-232-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:04 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Like it? Visit #hydrairc on EFNet"] 22:38:54 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 22:41:15 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-176-48.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:42:53 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:46:31 -!- jaws [n=jolyonw@124-168-253-144.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit ["Computer goes to sleep!"] 22:46:57 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229151217.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 22:47:54 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:49:45 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:52:24 redo the web in s expressions 22:52:26 :) 22:52:34 server and client 22:52:45 lisp web broswer that works 22:52:49 and nice web server 22:58:41 http://paste.lisp.org/display/86833 22:58:46 Does anybody know how to fix this? 22:58:55 cl-ppcre is definitly there. 22:59:54 slash_: are you sure you have your symlinks and asdf:*central-registry* set up right? 23:00:37 Well I installed cl-ppcre with asdf. 23:00:48 And it used to work. 23:01:33 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:01:37 slash_: what does asdf:*central-registry* say? 23:02:40 http://paste.lisp.org/display/86833#1 23:03:54 slash_: is there a symlink to cl-ppcre.asd in either of those paths? 23:04:11 Yes 23:04:11 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:04:19 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:24 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp039.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:04:33 In the latter. 23:04:46 hmmm 23:06:21 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:07:36 ;_; 23:11:09 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:38 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:14:20 -!- seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 23:16:42 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:17:47 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 23:19:50 -!- RauulSeixas [n=user5442@189-19-127-208.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit ["EJECT"] 23:24:55 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:25:25 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:25:34 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:25:47 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:28:29 *younder* figured out how to do a incremental backup with find and tar.. 23:28:44 It works. \o/ 23:29:38 slash_: \o/ 23:29:56 younder: I like rdiff-backup myself :D 23:30:08 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:31:06 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:31:21 Obviously I was missing a trailing "/" 23:31:22 find / -xdev -mtime 14 -print | tar cvpzf /media/VERBATIM/incbackup100909.tgz -T - 23:31:29 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:31 I like it old school 23:34:35 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:35:13 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-75.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:35:51 Sill not working in slime though. :( 23:36:21 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:21 sykopomp: To translate find from root only on this device files less than 2 weeks (14 day's) old and print them. pipe them through tar creating a archive verbosely and compressed to the backup media using files from stdin (the pipe) 23:36:39 nuff said, good night 23:39:43 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@32.159.60.101] has quit [] 23:39:44 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h6n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:40:44 antgreen [n=user@bas2-toronto06-1177888317.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:41:06 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:43:27 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 23:48:58 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:53:48 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-69-107-65-28.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [] 23:55:57 rvirding [n=chatzill@h6n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 23:56:08 -!- Hun [n=hun@80.153.55.38] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:57:17 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:57:25 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp