00:08:59 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.222.23] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 00:11:12 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@c-98-210-12-88.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:12 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:12:25 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-29-157.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:18:06 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:18:28 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 00:20:45 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@64.241.37.140] has joined #lisp 00:22:26 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:22:46 rvirding [n=chatzill@h6n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 00:23:55 jao [n=jao@214.Red-88-6-174.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:58 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72e9a8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [No route to host] 00:24:16 -!- kenpp [n=kenpp@84.92.70.37] has quit [Success] 00:24:36 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:27:12 -!- trebor_home [n=email@dslb-084-058-246-104.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:34:34 skeptomai [n=cb@c-67-170-103-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:03 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B695D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:40:59 slackjaw [n=jolyonwh@cb8faac9.atp.nicta.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:41:52 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@c-67-170-103-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Changing server"] 00:46:12 skeptomai [n=cb@c-67-170-103-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:50 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@c-67-170-103-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:47:14 thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:41 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-29-157.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:52:39 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:39 -!- kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:52:51 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 00:53:38 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@64.241.37.140] has quit [] 00:56:38 what does slime-complete-symbol*-fancy do? 00:57:05 C-h v 00:58:03 -!- thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:58:25 the description is too concise 00:58:46 i guess it's for contextual completion of keywords 00:58:49 (at least) 00:59:22 I am using fuzzy completion. does that mean I won't see it in action. 00:59:34 you won't, yes 00:59:45 it's for c-p-c 00:59:46 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.217.193] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:59:54 ok 01:00:04 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:07:11 mcox [n=user@131.181.41.84] has joined #lisp 01:11:05 S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has joined #lisp 01:14:43 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:20:11 -!- huangjs [n=user@p3045-ipbf2908marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:24:36 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:28:21 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:32:42 bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:33:08 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:35:15 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-72-90.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:36:14 Does LISP lazy evaluate? 01:36:54 Not by default. 01:37:30 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:37:55 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:38:12 Then the OR-solution doesn't work. 01:38:23 OR is evaluated, as you say, lazily. 01:38:32 Because it is a macro, not a function call. 01:38:38 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 01:38:40 It is in effect part of the syntax of Lisp. 01:38:59 It unpacks to a nasty pile of IFs. 01:39:16 Ahh ok. 01:39:50 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:39:56 weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 01:40:55 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:48 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-114-225.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:43:05 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:44:46 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-114-34.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 01:45:38 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442411.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:45:38 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:45:46 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:10 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 01:49:30 -!- bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:50:01 kleppari_ [n=spa@212.30.204.85] has joined #lisp 01:52:29 gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 01:52:34 gko` [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 01:54:09 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:10 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:51 huangjs [n=user@p3045-ipbf2908marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:55:08 antgreen [n=user@205.232.189.231] has joined #lisp 01:55:36 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 01:57:54 Hi everybody! I'm back to have some more fun learning Lisp. I hope you all are having a good day today. 02:02:09 slash_: macros normally do not evaluate their arguments 02:02:43 I wasn't aware that OR is a macro. 02:02:47 Well, some do and some don't. 02:03:09 jcowan: the standard behavior is to not do so. 02:03:15 as much as any behavior is standard in lisp, anyway 02:03:34 The *default* behavior is not to do so. OR, in particular, evaluates exactly as many arguments as it needs to. 02:03:42 Or rather, it expands into code which does that. 02:04:24 exactly. 02:04:29 it doesn't itself evaluate them 02:04:36 its expansion may. 02:04:43 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:05:27 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:06:03 skeptomai [n=skeptoma@c-67-170-103-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:17 -!- gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 02:06:32 -!- gko` [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:06:48 gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 02:07:12 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1DE9E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:08:43 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 02:10:06 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:10:40 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 02:11:45 weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 02:15:43 seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:16:40 is this the way that the equivalent to &rest is done in scheme? (define (vector . args) (list->vector args)) 02:17:07 OmniMancer: ask #scheme. 02:20:57 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:21:11 weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 02:21:50 *OmniMancer* likes common lisp it has better argument lists :D 02:23:27 Several implementations have CL-style extensions for argument lists. 02:24:10 but CL *must* have them :P 02:24:42 Good morning! 02:24:49 morning 02:25:15 Hi beach! 02:27:41 *OmniMancer* hugs CL lambda lists. 02:29:27 beach, I got cut off from the Internet immediately after the last questions I asked you. Sorry if you answered, and I didn't respond. 02:32:22 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:34:17 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-72-90.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:34:56 joevandyk_ [n=joevandy@pool-98-117-141-171.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:08 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:36:47 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:38:42 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:38:51 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:58 CL lambda-lists ftw amirite 02:40:21 cl lambda lists could have been better 02:40:48 they are better than scheme ones... 02:40:48 for instance, for flet it's (bindings . body) 02:40:54 it should be: 02:41:13 ((* (* var) . flet-body) . body) 02:41:40 whyfor *? 02:41:54 "whyfor"? 02:42:06 yeah scheme lambda lists are horrible 02:42:08 why do you have a *? 02:42:10 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 02:42:18 OmniMancer, kleene star 02:42:20 *OmniMancer* likes keyword args 02:42:22 ah 02:42:26 -!- joevandyk [n=joevandy@pool-98-117-141-171.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:42:26 -!- joevandyk_ is now known as joevandyk 02:42:30 weirdo: what do you mean? flet's definition is just right. Maybe I don't get what you mean. 02:42:36 some scheme impls have keywords, though 02:42:54 sykopomp, sometimes i don't remember the exact syntax for sublists 02:43:10 and since it's just flat "bindings', autodoc won't help me remember 02:43:24 (equal some all) => NIL 02:43:45 OmniMancer, people write code for only one impl in scheme 02:44:10 the difference is that common lisp requires them in the standard? 02:44:13 I think the only thing I'm not terribly fond of is &aux 02:44:31 &aux does what? 02:44:37 although I don't really mind that it's there. It just seems like it's blowing up a lambda list when it should really be in a LET. 02:44:57 clhs 3.4.1.5 02:44:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dae.htm 02:45:23 sbcl has buggy &aux wrt declarations :( 02:45:29 i posted a bug report and no one bothered to reply 02:45:30 and my issue is not so much with its existence as it is with how complex CL's lambda-lists already are -- it's tricky to remember the rules for how -everything- interacts. 02:45:47 :( 02:46:01 but keywords and &rest and &optional good? 02:46:31 I like them, yeah, but there's always a bit of weirdness with their interaction sometimes. 02:46:37 sykopomp: It's useful when all you have is a lambda list. 02:47:02 pkhuong: yeah, that's when I've seen them used (and that's what the clhs example does) 02:47:27 I think my favorite lambda-list trick ever is &optional x &rest y 02:47:50 (&rest all-keys &key foo &aok) is fun, too, but it feels -dangerous- 02:48:03 y is nil when no rests? 02:48:08 yeah 02:48:20 yay 02:48:42 it just makes for a fairly nice interface in some cases. 02:48:55 are there any interesting subsets of common lisp? 02:48:57 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:49:07 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-218-72.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:43 OmniMancer: Pearl Lisp had some neat stuff about it. 02:49:50 particularly Object Lisp 02:49:57 OmniMancer: http://www.mactech.com/articles/mactech/Vol.06/06.08/PearlLisp/index.html 02:50:19 I actually don't know of any modern CL subsets. I've only heard of full or planning-on-being-full implementations of the standard. 02:50:59 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [No route to host] 02:51:00 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.71.223] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:51:07 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.71.223] has joined #lisp 02:52:05 lat: Yes, I saw that, but someone (sykopomp was it) helped you out. 02:53:40 I did? 02:53:51 would it be reasonable to produce a standard that contains the parts of CL that are not particularly resource heavy so that it can be used on minimal hardware? 02:54:08 -!- mgm [n=none@p84-72.acedsl.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:54:20 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 02:54:22 OmniMancer: the spec talks about 'subsets of common lisp' 02:54:24 Reasonable, but very hard. 02:55:01 I remember reading somewhere that there was an attempt to break down CL into packages, which might provide some logical pointers as to which parts to include. 02:55:19 jcowan: would it really be that much harder than writing an implementation in the first place, though? 02:55:40 (although a -standard- would certainly be a lot of work. An implementation, probably not so much) 02:56:01 beach, when I type commands in your dict software, it discards the spaces and returns an error. What could be causing that? 02:56:05 -!- timchen119 is now known as nasloc__ 02:56:38 lat: I really have no idea. I have never seen anything like that before. 02:56:45 The trouble is primarily behind-the-scenes dependencies. 02:57:15 Hmm, I feel sorry for the CLtL3 people. 02:57:29 OmniMancer: for example, see 02:57:32 clhs 1.7 02:57:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_g.htm 02:57:54 beach: how so? 02:58:14 Starting a project like that means spending all of your time telling people that you are not going to do what they suggested. 02:58:21 This is painful. 02:58:27 that's true 02:58:32 And the people making suggestions get angry too. 02:58:39 hopefully, the approach they're taking will keep that to a minimum 02:58:44 jcowan, I suspected that. Is there an easy way to trace down which ones? 02:59:40 In general, it's done for particular programs ("tree-shaking") and you hope they are then small enough. 02:59:52 sykopomp: It is the same thing with things other than programming languages. I never call a meeting to discuss how we should organize a course. I make a suggestion, and then people can have opinions on how to modify it. Otherwise, again, I will spend my time telling them why we are not going to do it the way they suggested. 03:00:17 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.247.98] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:00:26 It's a lot less work that way, and people will be less angry in the end. 03:00:42 Plus, it is more likely things will be the way I want them to. 03:01:41 jcowan: from what I was told, tree-shaking will only get you so far wrt shrinking CL images and memory usage. 03:01:46 I do wonder. 03:01:58 makes me want to write my own lisp implementation just to learn how to do this stuff :P 03:02:33 Just so, because (as I say) of hidden dependencies. 03:02:37 beach: you could argue that that approach is similar to what each implementation does right now "I'm going to do these things whether you like it or not" 03:02:57 but the matter becomes trickier when you have all these people that are doing things slightly different because they wanted to do it their own way, and now you want them to actually agree. 03:03:28 you're kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place when you have 8 professors with equal standing who each has his own curriculum, and the uni now wants it all standardized. 03:07:29 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wvzduijrtkrygsgo] has joined #lisp 03:09:34 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:36 beach: drewc seems to be doing a pretty good job of telling people, "this is how it's going to be; if you want something else you'll have to get it elsewhere." 03:11:34 gigamonkey: I agree he is doing a good job, but I still think it must be a difficult one. 03:12:23 What is it that he is doing, and where? 03:12:38 minion: tell jcowan about cltl3 03:12:39 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``cltl3''. 03:12:40 hm 03:12:57 jcowan: http://ilc2009.scheming.org/node/48 03:15:49 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:16:21 beach: what would mcclim need in order to work in OSX and windows? (I don't know if it works on either of those) 03:16:44 rouslan [n=Rouslan@pool-71-161-75-11.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:46 gigamonkey: or telling "write a portable reference implementation", if my memory serves me right :-) 03:18:56 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h6n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:19:04 Or write a OS-specific MacClim or WinClim. 03:19:13 Or run X on the Mac (easy) or on Windows (possible). 03:21:58 does sbcl qualify as a JIT compiler? 03:22:04 no 03:22:09 -!- Irishmanluke is now known as Sailormoon 03:23:11 at least, my definition usually involves some kind of bytecode 03:23:36 -!- Sailormoon is now known as Irishmanluke 03:23:53 -!- Irishmanluke is now known as Sailormoon 03:24:14 -!- Sailormoon is now known as Irishmanluke 03:26:17 DeusExPikachu: why do you ask? 03:26:28 DeusExPikachu: I believe CLISP has a JIT now, or it's in an experimental phase or whatever. 03:26:50 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 03:27:01 it just seems blurry to me, CL with compiling during runtime 03:27:08 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:19 I guess that does not count as JIT 03:27:35 Depends what you mean, obviously. 03:27:38 sykopomp: A suitable backend. I think it is possible to run an X server on those platforms. If not, you would need a backend that talks to the native windowing system or to some other intermediate layer such as SDL or GTKairo. 03:27:40 I thought the distinction was "compile something at execution time, specifically", as opposed to having a specified compilation phase. 03:28:20 When L Peter Deutsch invented JIT compilation, the key insight seemed to be that you could mix compiled and uncompiled code. 03:28:29 Which I guess Lisps that have both an interpreter and a compiler can do. 03:28:44 However since it's usually under user control, rather than automatic, it's not quite the same. 03:28:58 DeusExPikachu: What is sad is that so many people confuse compilation with batch processing, and thus interactivity with interpretation. 03:28:58 I guess what's important is the optimizations the implementation makes during runtime, if the optimizations depend on runtime information, than I would say it has JIT functionality 03:29:40 DeusExPikachu: The thing is, CL doesn't distinguish between compile time and runtime. 03:29:45 Where the most basic "runtime information" is, this code is getting run a lot, therefore I should compile it rather than keep interpreting it. 03:30:03 which might be quite useful for generic functions 03:30:14 I think that the real problem is that they conufse 'interpreted' with 'slow'. 03:30:28 Which leads to all of this nonsense of trying to avoid the word 'interpreted' when it is perfectly apt. 03:30:50 I don't think sbcl is a JIT 03:31:07 reading pypy, I think decent speed ups come from type inferencing 03:31:21 sbcl is not a JIT. 03:31:25 or I should say, a lot of work has been made trying to do that 03:31:29 It has an incremental native code compiler. 03:31:29 JIT compiles code just before execution 03:31:42 sbcl compiles everything after it is defined 03:31:50 kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:50 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:31:51 Zhivago: I think that whether iterated self-[interpretation/compilation] results in an unbounded slowdown or not is a perfectly good way to differenciate between compilation and interpretation. 03:32:53 And what about interpreters for where that isn't true? 03:32:53 *gigamonkey* wants a compiler that compiles everything *before* it is defined. ;-) 03:33:06 Zhivago: then they're compilers. 03:33:22 Leading to meaninglessness, again. 03:33:41 Show me how. 03:34:05 Since you've now decided that an interpreter (which produces a result) is now a compiler (which produces a program), simply due to performance factors. 03:34:12 a compiler is just an interpreter that does some of its interpreting beforehand and leaves something that the processor can with limited help interpret itself 03:34:33 A compiler isn't an interpreter -- it doesn't produce the result of interpreting a program. 03:34:39 indeed 03:34:43 Zhivago: compiler + runtime then. 03:34:48 It produces a program which if interpreted will produce an equivalent result. 03:34:50 + running 03:34:55 The end goal is to execute the program. 03:34:58 isn't the difference between an interpreter and an incremental compiler is the already compiled code can refer to already compiled code, so it doesn't need to be reinterpreted->compiled, where interpreted is always interpreted at each step 03:35:34 an interpreter is usually a bytecode compiler and a VM 03:35:52 And you see why the word 'interpreter' is poisoned by all of this stupidity ... 03:35:58 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:36:03 I said usually 03:36:08 not always 03:36:12 I would say thats a hybrid system then, cause it has both 03:36:32 then most modern "interpreters" are not interpreters 03:36:41 which is probably right 03:37:00 The partial evaluation community seems to believe that's a perfectly meaningful criterion for optimality of partial evaluation. We're talking about the same people who measure performance in number of reductions. 03:37:02 isn't the base distinctions that compiler -> native code and interpreter -> run program? 03:37:12 Deus: Why can't producing native code be part of a perfectly good interpreter? 03:37:13 although if you compile down further to machine code, it'll be faster 03:37:40 not necessarily 03:38:13 Yes, lose those prejudices. 03:38:21 I am sure it would be possible to produce a system for which compiled code is slower, possibly requiring the compilation to be done during runtime 03:38:31 interpreters can be fast 03:38:41 Are there CL systems with JITs? 03:38:45 Interpreters can beat machine-code -- think of an interpreter as a kind of compression scheme. 03:39:04 jcowan: CLISP has one, I think. 03:39:10 *jcowan* nods. 03:39:11 jcowan: CLISP has an experimental backend based on GNU Lightning (sigh). 03:39:23 in the sense that it first compiles to byte-code, then compiles that to native when it runs. 03:39:37 the interpreter can directly represent concepts that compilers have to resolve to native structures 03:39:41 Sorry, think of an interpreter running on another interpreter as a kind of compression scheme. :) 03:39:52 *OmniMancer* cries at the existence of lightning 03:39:55 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:40:08 *sykopomp* wonders what the deal is with GNU Lightning. 03:40:15 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:40:16 is there some nasty secret about it I haven't heard about? 03:40:20 its a bunch of evil evil C macros :( 03:40:47 also no register allocator 03:41:31 weirdo [n=sthalik@c142-5.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 03:42:04 lightning is just bad, there are infinitely better solutions 03:42:40 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-72-90.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:42:50 sykopomp: the goal of the project is to let people emit portable asm. So you get the greatest common denominator of x86 (6 GPRs, yay!), PPC and SPARC. So, tiny register set, and tiny instruction set. 03:43:10 heh. 03:43:16 it'd be better to just use C 03:43:18 whereas if you used a reasonable solution like llvm 03:43:26 you get optimisations 03:43:31 register allocator 03:43:40 type system :D 03:43:44 how is llvm for performance now though? 03:43:51 what do you mean? 03:44:25 Is anything using llvm on say, the shootout, where we can see a good comparison with other systems for typical performance? 03:44:44 ah, I don't know 03:44:45 OmniMancer, I don't see how a classical interpreted code will run faster than classical compiled code assuming all else being equal, I'm not referring to strange optimization cases 03:45:25 DeusExPikachu: the premise is that a higher level language more easily allows you to write more clever algorithms. That aside, yes, it will always be slower. 03:45:27 Deus: You need to understand it as a form of compression. 03:45:32 Deus: Think about cache locality ... 03:45:41 As every discussion using vocabulary that hasn't been clearly defined, this one is pretty useless. 03:45:52 DeusExPikachu: suppose you have operations in your language that expand to a *lot* of native machine instructions. 03:46:15 which they will in the case of most high level languages 03:46:17 A bytecode interpreter, say, might end up having one copy of those lots of instructions that stays in cache. 03:46:22 gigamonkey: This new fangled concept of subroutines I've read about is supposed to be helpful there. 03:46:24 A non-optimizing compiler generates them over and over. 03:46:50 -!- slackjaw is now known as jaws 03:46:50 pkhuong: I'm talking about a simple compiler vs. a simple interpreter. 03:47:00 or sometimes emits them as a function then undoes this by inlining :P 03:47:17 gigamonkey: Why compare an interpeter to a NON-OPTIMIZING compiler? 03:47:19 gigamonkey: a simple compiler is much more likely not to perform inlining at all than to perform it too aggressively. 03:47:21 gigamonkey: the problem is simple-anything isn't useful or relevant anymore, really. 03:47:30 pkhuong: I'm not talking about inlining. 03:47:51 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:47:54 I'm talking about a language where you say: (defun foo () (x) (y) (z)) (defun bar () (x) (z)) 03:48:00 Subroutines are generally limited in terms of what they can factor out by the cost of a subroutine call. 03:48:10 Sorry--that's a crappy syntax to make my point. 03:48:12 Zhivago: ... but interpreters aren't? 03:48:51 Not to the same extent. 03:48:58 Zhivago: how? 03:49:10 I guess I'm assuming open-coding of certain language primitives. As opposed to fancy inlining. 03:49:19 They know what kind of text they're trying to compress -- the underlying CPU doesn't. 03:49:23 Which may not really be all that different. 03:49:44 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 03:49:54 beach, mle: well, DeusExPikachu asked about "classical" interpretation vs compilation 03:49:55 the interpreter can represent an abstact machine that is designed to run the code 03:49:58 So while a native subroutine call might take several words, it might only be a few bytes in your interpreter. 03:50:03 gigamonkey: no. And much simpler to handle correctly in the vast majority of cases too. You can look at the code and decide which part to inline and fast path, and what to call into from the slow path. 03:50:32 Zhivago: At some point those few bytes have to somehow be translated into something for the CPU to execute. 03:50:51 yes 03:50:55 Sure, and that can be always in the same place in cache. 03:51:00 DeusExPikachu: best perhaps to consider both methods useful; interpretation is often much faster (low overhead) for something short you plan to do once. 03:51:03 There is always interpretation overhead, including in the CPU hardware itself. 03:51:08 but in an interpreter it's the same code run over and over 03:51:17 Hence the JIT, which only compiles what is used a lot. 03:51:22 What you should be thinking at this point is that a good compiler is trying to produce a good interpreter for the program it is compiling. 03:51:24 And throws it away when assumptions change. 03:51:32 jcowan: not always, that's exactly what a compiler does: it eliminates the interpretative overhead. 03:51:46 even an assembly coded interpreter which interprets some virtual or real CPU would likely be slower than a compiler as it would need to have an instruction fetch phase and it would also have to jump to each instruction's handler thus probably reducing some caching some CPUs do 03:51:47 The CPU still has to interpret its instructions. 03:51:51 While introducing other interpretative overhead. 03:51:57 It's just that that's done in hardware. 03:52:00 There's always a balance between these things. 03:52:08 and when you get down to it, unless you're outputting VHDL or a netlist, there's always interpretation going on. 03:52:29 yay lets compile to vhdl :D 03:52:59 heh, no thanks. 03:53:09 the main slowdown of an interpreter is the requirement of indirect jumps 03:53:15 which compilation removes 03:53:35 well, compilation can perform a lot of smart optimizations too 03:53:37 L1I is usually plentiful. Bytecode has the disadvantage of instead using L1D, which must be shared with the actual data processed by the program. With a native subroutine call, you're much more likely to be able to take advantage of branch prediction on returns. 03:53:49 mle, I agree that both are useful, without a doubt. Just from the fact that some things are run a lot and other not ON runtime information (ie you can't deduce it from the code itself perhaps due to user input etc) a hybrid JIT optimizating approach is Ideal but also difficult to achieve 03:54:26 also indirect jumps tend to break branch prediction 03:54:54 you must remember that JIT has overhead 03:55:32 JIT has overhead, but you can balance that overhead vs benefit in a JIT fashion 03:55:35 pkhuong: there are interpretive systems using L1Icache; consider a direct-threaded forth 03:55:47 JIT often also unsuitable for code which must be highly predictable i.e. in some real-time contexts 03:56:02 indeed 03:56:12 since the JIT may mess up the timings... 03:56:18 mle: that's not a bytecode in which a subroutine call consists of fewer bytes than a native call, is it? 03:56:30 it is 03:56:34 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 03:56:43 subroutine call == address in direct threaded forth? 03:56:59 mle: Also, are you thinking of subroutine threaded code? 03:57:01 pkhuong: dtc forths subroutine call === native subroutine call 03:57:02 I'm betting that in the future, a good JIT should be able to handle those real-time constraints 03:57:19 itc forth sub call is of course just an address; very different 03:57:21 but the real-time semantics would somehow need to be understood 03:57:27 but this isn't #forth, so... perhaps not on topic 03:57:34 DeusExPikachu: a good JIT engine already works similar to incremental compilers 03:57:44 mle: that's subroutine threading, not direct threading. Second, how can a native call consist of fewer bytes than ... a native call? 03:58:25 *OmniMancer* uses google 03:58:34 By reason of not needing to have a call protocol because it is called only from a known place and can just jump back there. 03:58:47 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 03:58:49 no arg pushing :D 03:59:11 Rather, no call pushing. 03:59:12 the arguments must have gotten in the right place magically. 03:59:17 Right. 03:59:26 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.116.8] has joined #lisp 03:59:37 "LAMBDA Need Not Be Slow" 04:00:18 pkhuong: we're disagreeing on terminology then; I'm describing it as forth users generally have, though I could be wrong. It's been a while. I never said anything about size of native call relative to anything. 04:00:36 direct threading uses jumps from a list of addresses 04:01:09 anyway 04:01:19 anyone know of a lisp written in forth? 04:01:25 mle: and yet size of calls to a subroutine compared to bytecode is what sparked the remark on sharing L1D between data and bytecode. 04:01:37 Forth weenies wouldn't think Lisp is worth implementing. Too much overhead. 04:01:50 jcowan: quick, tell nyef. 04:02:05 Not all users are weenies. 04:03:15 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:03:18 pkhuong: Heh, if it's a native call, it isn't using any l1d, in theory, right? 04:03:51 yes, but it's also not smaller than a call in compiled code. 04:03:52 -!- Joreji_ [n=thomas@43-078.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:04:13 forth blurs the boundry 04:04:22 I'm reading Keene, I'm assuming sbcl optimizes generic functions pretty well, but is it at the level where it changes implementation behaviour on runtime information? 04:04:32 in forth the bytecode representation is almost native compiled code 04:04:53 OmniMancer: only in a naive implementation. 04:05:17 pkhuong: how is it not smaller than a compiled call? 04:05:18 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:05:28 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:52 on average a single jump instruction + a list of addesses is smaller than a list of jumps 04:05:58 mle: because it's a compiled call. 04:06:28 so you are saying compiled calls are the atomic unit? 04:06:46 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 04:06:58 OmniMancer: no, i'm saying native calls can't be smalled than native calls. 04:07:04 *smaller 04:07:06 I think I'm missing something. 04:07:20 call != jmp 04:07:38 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 04:08:18 if you have a single jump instruction and a list of adresses plus code to move through the list 04:08:39 the overall code size is smaller than a list of compiled calls to the addresses 04:08:41 OmniMancer: but then you're using L1D for the bytecode. 04:09:52 does threading confuse the branch prediction? 04:10:26 there is no special feature about a compiled call that makes it any different from a direct-threaded call. But threaded interpretive systems are perhaps a special case. 04:10:41 OmniMancer: I think that's chip dependent, but generally I believe so. 04:11:09 OmniMancer: if only by virtue of executing more branches. 04:11:44 just curious cause I have access to a cluster now, is sbcl suitable for running on a cluster with infiniband? 04:11:45 pkhuong: in a DTC system, your "bytecode" is a series of call addr, call addr, call addr, with perhaps a few things inlined if it's not braindead. 04:12:11 well it means the predictor has to look for the jump adresses of the indirect jumps 04:12:19 mle: so the bytecode to perform a given call can't be smaller than the native code to perform that same call: they're the same thing. 04:12:32 DeusExPikachu, COMPUTE-APPLICABLE-METHODS is cached 04:12:56 pkhuong: I think we're awkwardly arguing for the same thing. 04:13:32 DTC is practically compiled 04:13:34 weirdo, are those complete methods in the cache compiled out? 04:13:37 DeusExPikachu, also, a determinator function is compiled after methods are changed, so the initial lookup is efficient, too 04:13:47 DeusExPikachu, i don't understand the question 04:14:03 maybe cause I don't understand compute-applicable-methods 04:14:05 the cache is a mapping between a list of types and a method 04:14:08 properly 04:14:20 rather, a list of methods in order 04:15:04 I see now 04:15:15 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-254-152.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:49 but EQL-specializers are types too 04:16:03 my question is, is the effective method (all after, before, primary methods combined) cached? and if so is it stored as compiled in the cache? 04:16:11 so if something matches an EQL-specializer, the interned specializer is used instead of the type 04:16:42 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:16:59 DeusExPikachu, what do you mean by "as compiled"? 04:17:12 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:28 native code 04:18:48 We can't just compile the whole effective method as a single unit. Methods can be defined in arbitrary lexical environment, so the best we can do is compile the *calls* to these methods. 04:19:25 oh, I didn't consider that 04:19:31 DeusExPikachu all SBCL code is native code 04:19:51 yeah 04:19:54 unless you specifically use the interpreter they don't support anymore 04:20:03 rick_james [n=rickjame@24-107-56-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:21:15 OmniMancer: that hasn't been true for nearly 3 years now. 04:21:38 what has not been true? 04:21:49 did they remove the interpreter or support it? 04:23:04 SBCL has had an interpreter that is supported since 0.9.16.27. CMUCL's IR1 (ICR) evaluator, on the other hand was yanked out very early on, and was never put back in. 04:25:12 -!- kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:25:12 but use of the interpreter is discouraged? 04:25:31 pkhuong, if functions defined in non-null lexical environments can be compiled, why can't methods, if you don't mind? 04:26:18 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has joined #lisp 04:26:46 datou [n=datou@124.205.137.168] has joined #lisp 04:27:27 DeusExPikachu: There's a difference between compiling code that will evaluate to a closure and taking an interpreted closure and compiling it. 04:27:59 The latter is explicitly not supported by the standard: "The consequences are undefined if the lexical environment surrounding the function to be compiled contains any bindings other than those for macros, symbol macros, or declarations.", from the specification for COMPILE. 04:28:18 ah... my bad 04:32:29 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:32:46 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:30 what does it mean by that? 04:35:31 -!- skeptomai|away [n=skeptoma@c-67-170-103-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:35:38 skeptomai|away [n=nskeptom@c-67-170-103-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:16 pkhuong, do you see in the future the latter happening for future applications such as performance improvement? 04:37:15 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:43:05 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:43:52 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:47:47 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442411.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 04:48:19 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-218-72.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:51:13 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 04:53:26 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:57:27 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit ["off"] 04:58:37 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 04:59:42 -!- datou [n=datou@124.205.137.168] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:00:02 datou [n=datou@124.205.137.168] has joined #lisp 05:00:17 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:01:09 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-21-148.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 05:03:37 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.116.8] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:11:01 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 05:12:49 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A15C5.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:12:53 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:13:41 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 05:15:40 -!- ski [n=slj@c-9011e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:16:06 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:17:24 ski [n=slj@c-9011e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 05:18:03 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.244] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:18:06 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:18:10 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:18 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 05:19:17 What are these CDRs of which CLtL3 speaks, and where do I find them? Obviously Google will be no help here. 05:19:34 minion: CDR? 05:19:35 CDR: The Common Lisp Document Repository is hosted at http://cdr.eurolisp.org. http://www.cliki.net/CDR 05:20:19 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:20:42 Ah. SRFIs. 05:21:54 Only without the specialized mailing lists 05:23:12 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [] 05:23:27 I've been thinking that getting lisp back to 'everything is a list' via generic conses might be quite a useful thing to do. 05:23:45 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:24:07 but everything is not a list? 05:24:22 and will that let you modify functions? 05:24:28 You just have to look at them right. 05:24:40 Well, except for atoms. 05:24:44 tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 05:25:01 will it let us modify a function as a list? 05:25:15 If you set it up that way, sure. 05:25:22 Why do you want to do that? 05:25:28 ah, I never realized that tcr's with-readtable-iterator was never formally submitted as a CDR 05:25:37 so you can write evil evil self modifying code 05:25:50 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:25:53 Well, talk to your vendor about that. 05:26:40 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:29:12 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:29:26 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:31:46 Good morning everyone! 05:32:08 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 05:32:26 -!- zeroish [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:32:59 -!- zeroish` [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:33:13 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:52 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:40:07 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 05:41:08 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:34 -!- kerc [n=riise@31.84-49-151.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:41:45 lispm [n=joswig@g224121125.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 05:42:36 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 05:45:42 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wvzduijrtkrygsgo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:46:02 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-vaacmtrmdrxtfges] has joined #lisp 05:47:42 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 05:54:12 -!- wol [n=wol@67.174.222.215] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:57:00 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 05:57:28 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest67488 05:58:57 redblue [i=star@ppp012.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 06:00:57 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:04:50 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:09:57 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:10:00 -!- ole1 [n=user@82.113.121.144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:11:08 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:11:16 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:03 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:16:49 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:24:53 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:25:48 Adrinael_ [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has joined #lisp 06:26:03 hello 06:33:48 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:35:26 ASau [n=user@host54-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:40:53 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 06:48:38 -!- Adrinael_ is now known as Adrinael 06:50:31 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:01 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:52:20 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:53:23 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Broken pipe] 06:53:38 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 06:54:32 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:56:14 Why when I use (let ((my-board *board*)) (setf (aref my-board 0 0) 5)) It edites my global *board* insted of just my-board? Can I make a copy of board in some way? 06:56:31 Because you didn't make a copy. 06:56:52 how can I make a copy? 06:56:52 (let ((my-board (copy-board *board*))) ...) 06:56:53 mrSpec: yes, you can. 06:56:59 ok thanks :) 06:57:02 Write a function that copies it. 06:57:09 ahh 06:57:43 I've seen some copy-... functions, but there was no copy-array :S 06:57:44 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:57:58 clhs adjust-array 06:57:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_adjust.htm 06:58:15 good morning 06:58:17 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:58:18 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 06:58:44 You might also consider not copying the board, and just storing a stack of inverse operations. 06:59:00 heh, so is that a 19x19 board? 06:59:12 mle: not, 8x8 ;) 06:59:19 Joreji [n=thomas@42-218.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 06:59:20 ahh, a shame, heh 06:59:23 cschreiner [n=cp@cm-84.209.69.164.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 06:59:41 splittist [n=dmurray@196-125.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:59:43 morning 06:59:55 good morning 06:59:59 Zhivago: could you say something more? 07:00:38 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:01:58 fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 07:02:27 Quadre_ [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #lisp 07:02:57 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:03:04 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-148.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 07:03:24 metawilm [n=willem@kabel-9-126.kabel.netvisit.nl] has joined #lisp 07:04:23 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:23 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:08:35 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:09:14 mishoo [n=mishoo@86.124.78.239] has joined #lisp 07:09:34 -!- Quadre_ is now known as Quadrescence 07:10:13 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p14220-ipngn1701marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:14:09 iwaki [n=hide@PPPa282.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:15:06 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-254-152.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:15:31 benny [n=benny@i577A1A80.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:16:19 -!- Guest67488 is now known as lexa_ 07:16:49 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest91871 07:17:17 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:18:15 aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:19:13 -!- Guest91871 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 07:19:50 -!- mcox [n=user@131.181.41.84] has left #lisp 07:21:27 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 07:26:22 prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:26 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:36:04 jlpeters [n=james@hiltongardeninn-66.cpe.shasta.com] has joined #lisp 07:39:40 mrSpec: If your move is (lambda (b) (incf (aref b 0) 2)), such as #(1 2) --> #(3 2) then the inverse is (lambda (b) (decf (aref b 0) 2)) 07:39:48 -!- jlpeters [n=james@hiltongardeninn-66.cpe.shasta.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:39:59 pjb: already done it :D but thanks 07:40:00 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 07:40:22 jlpeters [n=james@hiltongardeninn-66.cpe.shasta.com] has joined #lisp 07:41:57 Sorry, I didn't see your earlier question -- but I'm glad you figured it out. 07:43:02 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:44:05 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86.124.78.239] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:44:12 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:45:23 -!- jlpeters [n=james@hiltongardeninn-66.cpe.shasta.com] has quit [] 07:46:01 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:46:16 jlpeters [n=james@hiltongardeninn-66.cpe.shasta.com] has joined #lisp 07:46:47 -!- jlpeters [n=james@hiltongardeninn-66.cpe.shasta.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:49:43 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:51:19 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:52:27 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:53:08 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-78-239.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 07:54:10 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:54:24 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:57:24 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:24 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:00:23 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:02:15 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 08:03:50 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:04:52 -!- seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:06:13 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:07:55 thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:01 derdon [n=derdon@p4FC8D73B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:19 hello 08:08:33 how can I define a lambda with default arguments? 08:08:57 derdon: (lambda (&optional (x 5)) ..) 08:09:09 thanks 08:10:05 I suppose that these two dots mark only any following code, right? 08:10:39 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:10:43 (lambda (&optional (x 5)) (print x)) 08:12:06 thanks again :) 08:12:25 Ralith: for which lisp-dialect is this code valid? 08:12:45 /topic 08:12:54 -!- yango_ is now known as yango 08:13:08 oh, sry 08:14:07 seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:14:10 PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 08:17:12 -!- seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:17:35 rey_ [n=ikke@134.184.49.19] has joined #lisp 08:18:15 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-78-239.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:18:35 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-78-239.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 08:19:17 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-49.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:28:25 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:31:58 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:34:12 -!- datou [n=datou@124.205.137.168] has quit [Client Quit] 08:38:18 ol3 [n=user@62.96.71.176] has joined #lisp 08:38:44 antifuchs: I probably meant http://common-lisp.net/~crhodes/tmp/sbcl/.git 08:40:58 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:41:49 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@42-218.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 08:41:53 Joreji [n=thomas@42-218.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:43:28 jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:44:32 how do you do binary 'and' and 'or' in common lisp ? 08:44:45 clhs logand 08:44:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_logand.htm 08:44:55 thank you 08:45:19 galdor: np. There's another set of "boolean" operators that work on bitvectors, I think. 08:46:53 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-17-81.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 08:48:42 -!- dacrawford [n=user@c-98-217-128-192.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:49:22 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:50:06 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:50:06 -!- jdz_ is now known as jdz 08:50:31 kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:31 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:52:09 -!- joevandyk [n=joevandy@pool-98-117-141-171.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 08:54:24 -!- merus [n=merus@c-67-175-45-120.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:55:42 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 08:59:56 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:00:34 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:02:12 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@wavelan-96.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has joined #lisp 09:06:05 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:06:43 simplechat [n=simple@123-243-79-139.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:07:29 clhs defun 09:07:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defun.htm 09:07:40 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-29-251.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:10:37 salva [n=salva@imaxeson.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:29 hxB5 [n=Sedrik@78.22.36.49] has joined #lisp 09:13:32 anyone knows how to fix this? http://www.mail-archive.com/stumpwm-devel@nongnu.org/msg01286.html 09:15:14 -!- derdon [n=derdon@p4FC8D73B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 09:15:24 ignas [n=ignas@79.132.160.221] has joined #lisp 09:15:35 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:16:32 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:20:12 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:41 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:23:27 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 09:34:11 -!- ignas [n=ignas@79.132.160.221] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:36:37 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:37:21 Krystof: a nicer way to do it: mkdir sbcl.git && cd sbcl.git && git --bare init && mv hooks/post-update.sample hooks/post-update && chmod a+x hooks/post-update; then "git push" into it. 09:39:18 git over http: just say no 09:39:38 really, all I wanted was a way to save my work elsewhere than my laptop, with minimal cognitive overhead 09:39:40 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@wavelan-96.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:39:57 I'm afraid that michaelw's six steps is not minimal cognitive overhead 09:40:06 not when I'm tired and sleepy, at least 09:40:19 (yes, tired *and* sleepy :-) 09:41:13 leo2007 pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86701 09:41:45 -!- antgreen [n=user@205.232.189.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:41:51 antgreen` [n=user@205.232.189.231] has joined #lisp 09:42:01 anyone seeing this slime warning when open zlib-cmucl.lisp from cl-pdf? 09:43:36 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:36 -!- kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:44:10 i don't have that file, but you'd better post this to slime-devel@, tcr should handle this, i don't really want to make myself acquainted with reader suppression 09:44:58 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229225206.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:45:29 Krystof: fair enough. you had to do four steps, I guess 09:45:47 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 09:45:49 (and with the file included) 09:46:01 -!- antgreen` [n=user@205.232.189.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:46:36 -!- rick_james [n=rickjame@24-107-56-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [] 09:46:37 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 09:48:47 michaelw: three, I think: clone, pull, server-update 09:49:03 anyway, I'm not disputing that my git-fu is lamentable 09:49:16 and sorry for sending people to the wrong URL 09:49:38 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@wavelan-96.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has joined #lisp 09:50:10 stassats: ok 09:52:26 Krystof: try darcs? 09:52:33 darcs init in your dir 09:53:01 mm, you know, that's not helpful 09:53:09 darcs -r add to add files to your repository 09:53:16 darcs record to add changes 09:53:22 ok, I know I may give the impression of being incompetent sometimes 09:53:26 then you make a repo on your other pc and just push from time to time 09:54:01 and if that is too much overhead 09:54:08 ... 09:54:18 scp -r workdir pcname:location 09:54:35 PissedNumlock: people who like git would not like darcs. 09:54:41 false 09:54:47 I havent worked with git 09:54:57 actually, why am I bothering to convince you that I actually know stuff? By all means talk to the echo chamber 09:55:00 ok, maybe it's false. my bad. 09:55:33 so why ask for advice Krystof when you don't care for the answers 09:55:51 you won't find easier solutions then darcs or git, except plain old scp 09:56:09 PissedNumlock: I'd be happy to start a VCS war if you want, let's just not spam #lisp 09:56:28 PissedNumlock: you are missing context 09:56:44 k, I'll just crawl back under my rock then :) 09:57:06 no thx Adlai I don't care that much for vcs's, I just use darcs for my own projects and that's about it 09:57:26 and used svn for a teamproject (java + eclipse plugin for svn, shoot me) 09:57:30 my point was mainly the second clause 09:58:39 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 10:07:46 HG` [n=HG@xdslgg237.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:11:00 -!- hxB5 [n=Sedrik@78.22.36.49] has quit [Client Quit] 10:11:34 -!- aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:12:29 about 10 years of context, yes 10:13:40 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslgg237.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 10:15:23 -!- no_mind [i=7aa3dc82@gateway/web/freenode/x-ipnvkclusqucqklu] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 10:17:38 Krystof: so far, it builds on my os x 10.6 box (: 10:17:55 taking a look at the code now 10:18:01 oh wow 10:18:16 Krystof: do you know what your gravatar looks like? (gitx just showed me) 10:19:04 Krystof: http://boinkor.net/tmp/xof-gravatar.png (-: 10:19:17 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:19:46 (these are randomly auto-generated. sometimes, I suspect there's some non-random element present) 10:19:49 heh 10:19:50 Geralt [n=Geralt@91.50.200.185] has joined #lisp 10:20:05 in real life I can't raise one eyebrow 10:21:01 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-128-159.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:23:35 a minor inaccuracy. 10:26:03 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:26:46 -!- gko [n=gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:31:44 Krystof: looks pretty sane, I rather like the red/green balance in diff output (: 10:32:42 also, it's not much more insane than what it replaces 10:33:32 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:36:42 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:36:49 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 10:39:21 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:39:43 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:40:01 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 10:46:05 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85.127.111.103] has quit ["Verlassend"] 10:48:53 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:43 ruediger [n=the-rued@80.139.50.200] has joined #lisp 10:52:32 joswig [n=joswig@e177123001.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:53:39 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@wavelan-96.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:55:59 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 10:56:42 ArtVandalae [n=SuperUnk@220.253.112.234] has joined #lisp 10:57:29 antifuchs: well, that was my take. "sure, I don't understand this, and it's all horribly twingled, but I can tweak it" 10:58:11 a.k.a. the sane (for now) maintenance programmer's approach (: 11:03:11 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.226.250] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:03:14 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@wavelan-96.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has joined #lisp 11:03:55 -!- lispm [n=joswig@g224121125.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:04:21 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-204.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:04:29 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 11:04:33 Good afternoon! 11:04:54 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:07:04 hi plage 11:07:53 -!- jaws [n=jolyonwh@cb8faac9.atp.nicta.com.au] has quit ["Computer goes to sleep!"] 11:13:16 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-204.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:13:43 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 11:15:56 nunb [n=user@94.161.160.119] has joined #lisp 11:17:04 -!- cschreiner [n=cp@cm-84.209.69.164.getinternet.no] has quit [] 11:18:26 -!- nunb [n=user@94.161.160.119] has quit [Client Quit] 11:19:07 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:20:29 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-154-168.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 11:21:22 sziasztok 11:22:26 Bless you. 11:23:15 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:23:31 arrr. 11:23:48 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:24:12 -!- iwaki [n=hide@PPPa282.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:27:07 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:16 for the few people who don't speak hungarian, it means hello everbody 11:27:50 I knew that 11:29:48 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:29:50 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:00 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:33:59 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-154-168.vodafone.hu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:38:41 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-vaacmtrmdrxtfges] has left #lisp 11:41:37 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-154-168.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 11:41:55 c|mell [n=cmell@p14220-ipngn1701marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:43:12 yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@93.120.133.36] has joined #lisp 11:43:15 levy: so how does one respond to a sneeze in Hungarian? 11:44:07 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has left #lisp 11:44:17 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:44:33 splittist, egészségedre 11:44:48 which is pretty difficult to pronounce correctly 11:45:02 Phew! I thought it was just me (: 11:45:04 because of 'szs' 11:47:05 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp012.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:47:57 pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:49:21 -!- ausente [n=user5442@189-19-118-137.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit ["eject"] 11:49:53 ausente [n=user5442@189-19-118-137.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 11:50:40 -!- ausente [n=user5442@189-19-118-137.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Client Quit] 11:50:47 ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:52:28 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:53:10 salva_ [n=salva@imaxeson.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:52 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:57:12 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 11:57:15 m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:57:18 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:57:18 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:57:18 -!- Guest58828 [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:57:18 -!- Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:57:18 -!- enn [n=eli@codeanddata.com] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:57:18 -!- phryk [n=phryk@yggdrasil.phryk.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:57:18 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:57:18 -!- herbieB_ [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:00 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:00:55 ShadowChild [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 12:00:59 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229225206.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:59 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:59 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-170-201-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:59 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-3-125.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:59 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-4ae470d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:59 -!- lharc [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:59 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:59 -!- azu [i=azure@s2.org] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:59 -!- ennen [n=nn@studio25.org] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:59 -!- Bucciarati [n=buccia@212.45.155.126] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:59 -!- qebab [i=finnrobi@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:59 -!- joshe [n=joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:59 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:59 -!- cmeme [n=cmeme@boa.b9.com] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:59 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:59 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@90.149.117.111] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:59 -!- galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:00:59 -!- Hazelesque [n=hazel@yamada.9noc.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:01:28 -!- prip [n=_prip@host185-130-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:01:28 it's a netsplit! 12:02:01 mqt [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:10 slackjaw [n=jolyonw@124-168-253-144.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:02:17 -!- octe [n=octe@78.129.202.55] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:02:22 mikezor [n=mikael@c-4ae470d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 12:02:28 octe [n=octe@78.129.202.55] has joined #lisp 12:02:28 -!- mqt is now known as Guest25149 12:02:29 herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 12:03:01 -!- slackjaw is now known as jaws 12:04:17 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229225206.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:04:17 peddie [n=peddie@c-67-170-201-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:17 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-3-125.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:17 lharc [n=shrek@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 12:04:17 asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 12:04:17 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@90.149.117.111] has joined #lisp 12:04:17 cmeme [n=cmeme@boa.b9.com] has joined #lisp 12:04:17 Hazelesque [n=hazel@yamada.9noc.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:17 qebab [i=finnrobi@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 12:04:17 Xof [n=crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:04:17 azu [i=azure@s2.org] has joined #lisp 12:04:17 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:17 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 12:04:17 joshe [n=joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 12:04:17 ennen [n=nn@studio25.org] has joined #lisp 12:04:17 Bucciarati [n=buccia@212.45.155.126] has joined #lisp 12:04:34 redblue [i=star@ppp109.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 12:05:43 hey, am i the only one to think that C-c on a toplevel defvar should do M-x slime-re-evaluate-defvar automagically? 12:05:54 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:54 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 12:05:54 phryk [n=phryk@yggdrasil.phryk.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:54 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:05:54 Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 12:05:54 enn [n=eli@codeanddata.com] has joined #lisp 12:05:55 it's the little things that are the most annoying 12:06:42 i usually use C-M-x, and i seem to remember it working correctly 12:06:54 s/correctly/as expected 12:08:33 -!- ShadowChild [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Client Quit] 12:08:39 weirdo: I can see two sides to that argument, although I guess I'd lean with yours 12:08:43 prip [n=_prip@host185-130-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:09:09 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 12:09:56 I guess it's fine as long as C-c wouldn't descend into forms that contain top-level forms (ie, eval-when, progn, etc) and pick out defvars separately. That should count as one form for the purpose of C-c. 12:10:15 hmm 12:10:16 -!- salva [n=salva@imaxeson.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:10:22 i'm gonna write a patch 12:11:39 guess you're right, C-M-x special-cases "^(defvar" 12:11:59 -!- salva_ [n=salva@imaxeson.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:13:06 [OT], why are there 75 notices of the same netsplit without a single netjoin? 12:13:07 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 12:14:40 antgreen [n=user@205.232.189.231] has joined #lisp 12:14:51 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:15:29 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:17:13 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@wavelan-96.vlan-109.publik.su.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:20:51 -!- yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@93.120.133.36] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:22:53 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:22:54 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:22:54 kpreid___ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:07 Adlai, probably your irc client is bugged 12:23:50 weirdo: likely -- I use ERC 12:23:52 i don't have netsplit detection in ERC and i saw netjoins properly 12:24:16 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 12:25:10 -!- triple [i=triple@pi.nxs.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:28:01 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-218-72.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:28:40 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@196-125.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:30:04 what is AntiSpamMeta ? 12:30:41 merus [n=merus@pal-176-050.itap.purdue.edu] has joined #lisp 12:31:57 yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@93-120-255-5.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 12:32:11 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 12:40:34 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:40:44 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:41 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:19 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DEE9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:50 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:45 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:57:22 Morning, folks. 12:57:23 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 12:57:32 Greetings. 12:57:41 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 12:59:53 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:00:33 vy [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has joined #lisp 13:01:17 Hi! I need some urgent assistance related with CFFI:FOREIGN-ALLOC in here: http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/cffi-devel/2009-September/003254.html Any helps will be really really appreciated. 13:01:24 -!- trsh [n=cons@93-141-37-226.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [] 13:01:45 -!- pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:01:47 -!- phryk [n=phryk@yggdrasil.phryk.net] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 13:02:11 trsh [n=mock@93-138-11-243.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 13:02:49 -!- merus [n=merus@pal-176-050.itap.purdue.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:07:51 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@apn-89-223-157-77.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 13:09:35 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:09:52 derdon [n=derdon@p4FC8DD7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:09 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:10:33 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 13:10:43 -!- kpreid___ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has left #lisp 13:11:28 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:58 yakman [n=bot@94-194-134-155.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:14:52 is there a package that helps when creating a lisp-->(another language) compiler, for an interpreter I run as a subprocess? 13:15:20 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 13:15:27 hello 13:15:49 hi attila_lendvai_, how are you? 13:15:51 or, more specificall, gap: http://www.gap-system.org/ 13:16:17 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:21 vy: a reproducible test case would help 13:16:33 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442411.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:18:16 myrkraverk: I'm not sure I see the connection between your question and that URL. 13:18:18 or, what I really want to do, is to embed gap into CL, so I'm not compiling *all* of CL, but a limited subset; or whatever 13:18:30 vy: I think that foreign-alloc receives NIL for :initial-contents 13:18:44 gigamonkey, there really is none ;-P 13:19:16 myrkraverk: I'm not sure what you want to do exactly. If you want to translate sexps to some other language, you could have a look at parenscript. 13:19:33 matimago, that's excactly what I mean, I think 13:19:45 (yes, being new to lisp, for some value of new hurts sometimes) 13:19:58 fe[nl]ix: the backtrace is weird, isn't it? Why would (foreign-alloc :int) call mem-set? 13:19:59 myrkraverk: but "embedinggap into CL" would mean the reverse. 13:20:06 parenscript generates javascript code. 13:20:24 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:20:27 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:30 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@42-218.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:20:30 woodz [n=woodz@host90-152-51-38.ipv4.regusnet.com] has joined #lisp 13:20:30 embedding gap into CL would generate CL code from the gap sources. (or at least, would implement an interpreter in CL). 13:20:41 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:46 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:20:52 matimago, oh; sorry 13:21:01 I just want to talk to gap 13:21:16 Ok. then something like parenscript is what you'll want. 13:21:26 ok, nice 13:21:29 thank you 13:21:39 luis: only if :initial-contents is specified. I get that error with (cffi:foreign-alloc :int :initial-contents '(nil)) 13:22:21 yes, but the backtrace doesn't show any :initial-contents argument 13:22:26 Basically, you define a s-exp based syntax for the target language constructs (gap), and then you can process them with a function similar to load (a loop reading each sexp in turn and translating them into gap source). 13:22:31 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122.57.9.204] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:23:36 luis: I'd bet that the backtrace show only required params 13:23:54 *arguments 13:23:56 matimago, aye 13:24:41 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:24:57 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 13:25:44 kami-: hi! i'm ok, my tonsils are back to normal, but the doctor says that they are better removed... i'll see him again two weeks later 13:25:44 attila_lendvai, memo from kami-: Hope you get (got ?) well soon! 13:25:50 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Client Quit] 13:25:51 vy: recompile with higher debug settings 13:26:13 kami-: fyi, levy is also around here recently... ;) 13:26:14 or (trace foreign-alloc), that should work too 13:28:48 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:29:22 myrkraverk: if what matimago decribed is what you want, then the FOO library described in PCL does some of what you want. 13:29:25 hi levy. what does the refactoring do? 13:29:57 attila_lendvai: keep them as long as possible (just my advice as a Neurosurgeon) 13:30:13 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:30:58 Adlai [n=adlai@93-172-167-34.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 13:30:58 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@93-172-167-34.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:31:42 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:32:15 gigamonkey, ah, thank you 13:32:56 attila_lendvai, levy: I still have problems with cl-dwim in the following fields: a) editing html-text doesn't work, b) appearance of persistent-processes in the meta-gui 13:33:46 -!- derdon [n=derdon@p4FC8DD7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 13:33:48 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:34:10 And before creating small test cases, I wanted to ask whether it would be time to switch to the new code base or not. 13:35:48 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:37:09 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:37:41 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:37:45 -!- yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@93-120-255-5.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:38:38 yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@93-120-255-5.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 13:42:14 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:44:12 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 13:44:53 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@apn-89-223-214-229.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 13:47:00 attila_lendvai__ [n=ati@apn-89-223-142-71.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 13:47:45 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:47:47 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:46 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 13:49:11 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:52:02 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 13:52:51 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-157-77.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:55:09 -!- antgreen [n=user@205.232.189.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:55:17 antgreen` [n=user@205.232.189.231] has joined #lisp 13:55:33 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:55:58 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:59:59 cschreiner [n=cp@cm-84.209.69.164.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 14:00:00 -!- attila_lendvai__ is now known as attila_lendvai 14:00:36 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:00:45 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:01:21 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 14:04:22 rouslan [n=Rouslan@71.161.75.11] has joined #lisp 14:05:57 -!- jao [n=jao@214.Red-88-6-174.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:09:00 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:09:12 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:36 -!- attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@apn-89-223-214-229.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:10:31 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:11:01 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:11:07 dacrawford [n=user@c-98-217-128-192.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:19 -!- ArtVandalae [n=SuperUnk@220.253.112.234] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:14:20 kami-: the answer about switching is 'soon' as usual... we are also trying hard to get it up and running 14:14:55 attila_lendvai: wouldn't it be better to have at least additional testers? 14:15:28 attila_lendvai: and it is a bit difficult to talk about bugs if it is even additional work for you to load the old code base. 14:16:01 ejs [n=eugen@46-64-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:05 -!- vy [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:18:16 vy [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has joined #lisp 14:19:23 kami-: i don't really know, because i'm as much a user of the old codebase as you are... i have it checked out and i've started working on dwim.hu, but i can't even judge the state of the codebase. levy said that the metagui part is still to be revived, but otherwise the rest of the functionality works fine 14:20:08 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:24:56 -!- ASau [n=user@host54-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 14:36:56 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 14:38:09 clhs 19.2.2.1.3 14:38:09 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 19.2.2.1.3. 14:38:12 clhs 19.2.2.1 14:38:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/19_bba.htm 14:38:26 attila_lendvai: ok. I will create test cases using the old code base. 14:44:02 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:44:25 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:45:04 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 14:46:07 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:09 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 14:48:24 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:48:45 triple [i=triple@pi.nxs.se] has joined #lisp 14:50:02 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.211.229] has joined #lisp 14:50:30 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@93.163.43.22] has joined #lisp 14:50:38 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:53:21 -!- yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@93-120-255-5.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:54:12 -!- dacrawford [n=user@c-98-217-128-192.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:58:13 ausente [n=user5442@187.10.17.152] has joined #lisp 14:58:45 -!- ausente is now known as RauulSeixas 14:58:58 -!- jaws [n=jolyonw@124-168-253-144.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit ["Computer goes to sleep!"] 15:01:27 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-218-72.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:02:11 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:02:19 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:53 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:04:58 derdon [n=derdon@p4FC8DFB1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:13 Joreji [n=thomas@43-078.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:05:26 Joreji_ [n=thomas@43-078.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:07:37 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:08:08 dto`` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:55 wow, fuzzy completion has come a long way 15:09:08 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:10:10 -!- dmiles [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:10:30 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:11:17 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:11:48 pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:12:38 Is there something like #'room for a specific object like an array or a class? 15:12:39 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-142-71.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:12:41 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:13:37 aerique: No. 15:13:47 aerique: the reason being that it wouldn't be well defined. 15:14:07 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-19-234.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:14:15 ie. (make-array 10 :initial-element 'hello) ; how do you count the size taken by HELLO? 15:14:29 matimago: yeah, it's a bit like asking for a standard copy function :) 15:14:34 -!- dto`` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:14:43 vs. (make-array 10 :initial-content (iota 10 (1+ most-positive-fixnum)) ; how do you count the size taken by the bignums? 15:15:12 matimago: you can make it well-defined by making it generic and only specialized on standard types 15:15:17 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 15:15:21 Notice that implementations can easily share the bignums: (setf (mystruct-value s) (aref a 1)) 15:15:28 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 15:15:43 Adlai: the problem is the sharing of structure constantly done by the programs and by the implementations. 15:15:47 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:15:58 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 15:16:15 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 15:16:40 morning 15:16:41 that doesn't stop #'room from being well-defined -- you could just say, "Within a single call to room, shared structure is only counted once." 15:16:52 aerique: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/377679 15:17:07 Adlai: it's possible for ROOM, because it counts everything. 15:17:45 *Adlai* didn't realize that room was a standard function 15:18:08 oh, I see, it doesn't take an object. 15:18:10 aerique: Or rather: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/381954 15:18:32 aerique: sb-introspect:allocation-information is supposed to return the size of an object, but while allocation-information is already, it can't yet return the size. You could add a comment that you'd like to see such functionality. 15:18:47 -!- prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:18:57 kami-, hi, I'be been away but attila is right about the state 15:18:59 (is already there) 15:19:12 aerique: all you can say is that the array a will take O( (reduce (function *) (array-dimensions a)) ) space... 15:19:43 -!- Joreji_ [n=thomas@43-078.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["leaving"] 15:20:58 thanks both matimago and tcr 15:21:58 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:20 kami, I think dwim.hu is the place that tells you what is the current state 15:22:24 guys, is there a problem in SBCL if I use 64-bit integers as hash keys? 15:22:28 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:22:32 unfortunately it is not yet up and running,,, :-( 15:22:38 ie. (setf (gethash 13175869218966987842 h) 'something) -- I can't figure out how to retrieve this value now 15:22:39 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student165-245.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 15:22:41 mishoo: no problem. 15:22:48 (gethash 13175869218966987842 h) returns nil 15:23:14 mishoo: what test are you using for the hash table? EQ isn't guaranteed to do anything special on numbers or characters. 15:23:22 EQ 15:23:23 s/special// rather 15:23:25 should I use EQL? 15:23:28 Yes. 15:23:36 -!- derdon [n=derdon@p4FC8DFB1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 15:23:37 (eq 3 3) -> NIL ; possibly. 15:23:55 heh, works :-) Thanks! 15:24:01 (let ((x (1+ most-positive-fixnum))) (eq x x)) -> NIL ; most probably. 15:24:15 matimago: most probably? Where? 15:25:02 pkhuong: sorry, you're right. I meant: (eq (1+ most-positive-fixnum) (1+ most-positive-fixnum)) -> NIL ; most probably (eg. in clisp). 15:25:11 yeah, I remember PCL warned about this 15:26:12 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-254-152.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:01 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:27:04 mishoo: same warning goes for characters too 15:27:17 use EQL or char= for them. 15:28:12 and a stronger warning goes for strings, use EQUAL or STRING= for them. and we don't say about vectors and pathnames :-0 15:28:50 Does news.gmane.org work for you? 15:29:01 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:29:10 tcr: yup (downforeveryoneorjustme.com). 15:29:23 ljosa [n=ljosa@pool-71-184-165-211.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:55 matimago: well, I mention characters specifically because it's much easier (since many languages have characters as numbers) to expect that characters be immediate objects too 15:30:47 Adlai: that's exactly because they are immediates that EQ doesn't make much sense on them. 15:32:11 Really? Isn't it more the reason that they may be boxed? 15:32:34 Probably just the other side of the coin 15:33:00 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:33:26 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-204.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 15:33:49 pkhuong: I'd expect that an implementation which stores some objects as immediate would treat the immediate data like a pointer for the purpose of EQ 15:34:14 tcr: since they're conceptually immediate, pointer equality doesn't make a lot of sense, so implementations can play fast and loose. 15:34:30 (as long as it had some way of differentiating between an actual pointer and a fixnum which happened to be the value of the address of that pointer) 15:34:53 Adlai: ah, but that assumes a single (boxed) representation. 15:35:43 well, I'm talking about what I'd expect of an implementation, not what I'd expect of ansi-compliance 15:36:00 Assume an implementation on 32-bit hardware wanting to provide 32-bit fixnums. Then all fixnum will have to be boxed (that is the tag would be stored in the pointer). And then you could have copies of the same value stored at different places (different pointers) thus not EQ. 15:36:28 Adlai: and I'm talking about a specific actual implementation. 15:36:35 hmmm 15:37:05 I see what you mean. My bad. 15:38:25 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 15:39:27 -!- cschreiner [n=cp@cm-84.209.69.164.getinternet.no] has quit [] 15:39:39 I assume it is to be expected that funcall a 'fn or #'fn is faster than funcalling a closure? 15:40:08 aerique: the difference is probably insignificant. 15:40:26 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:41:57 by the way, for functions that take a function (ie map), would there be a difference between passing #'my-function and 'my-function? 15:42:11 Adlai: there's a semantic difference. 15:42:40 matimago: right, but what are its effects on behavior and performance? 15:42:41 (defun f (x) (1+ x)) (flet ((f (x) (1- x))) (values (mapcar (quote f) '(1 2 3)) (mapcar (function f) '(1 2 3))) 15:42:50 (function f) is probably faster. 15:42:55 matimago: Well on SBCL 1.0.31.debian doing a naive benchmark: #'time on a loop which funcalls a simple function or closure (both the defun and the closure just return '1') shows 10s verus 24s. 15:43:36 aerique: did you (declaim (optimize (speed 3) (space 2) (sanity 0) (debug 0))) ? 15:43:39 <_3b> does the closure close over the 1? if so that might be the difference 15:43:49 matimago: argh, no.. will try again 15:44:01 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 15:44:01 <_3b> (assuming it didn't get optimized away anyway) 15:44:56 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:46:32 matimago: what do you think the time complexity of the difference is? It seems to be like it'd just be O(1), because passing a symbol means you need to do one (symbol-function ...) lookup at the start 15:46:39 matimago: doesn't make a difference but i'll go try using a macro instead of a closure and see if it makes a difference in my use case instead of the naive benchmark 15:46:58 The difference is one indirection. 15:47:17 matimago: you mean one function call? 15:47:18 Which is only a fraction of the time you'd spend passing parameters if you had some. 15:47:45 matimago: yeah, that's why i should use a real case. i'm using it in an inner graphics loop so any performance i can sqeeuze out of it is good 15:47:48 Adlai: better read the disassembly, but I'd say one indirection per function call. 15:48:09 what do you mean by "indirection"? a machine-code jump? 15:48:14 letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has joined #lisp 15:48:15 aerique: Well inside a loop you can opencode it: (declare (inline f))! 15:48:25 Adlai: yes. one load from memory. 15:48:33 ok 15:48:57 hm, so it's probably less of an effect than the aesthetic effect of leaving out the #\# character 15:48:59 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:49:07 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student165-245.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 15:49:40 aerique: or if the compiler doesn't honor it, you can always insert it "by hand" (eg define a macro instead of a function), but the compiler knows probably better when to inline, give the cache sizes and function call overhead, etc. 15:50:11 Adlai: Sure. It's just that semantically it's different, in some cases. 15:50:24 right, I understand the lexical/dynamic differenc 15:50:26 matimago: thanks again :) 15:50:27 e 15:50:31 Adlai: notice that in some circumstances you want to use quote, you want the indirection. 15:50:52 is there a command line argument parser? 15:51:06 you want quote when you want the symbol-function... are there any other cases? 15:51:08 I remember there was something on the ECL 15:51:36 For example, when you write a reader macro, if you use (set-macro-character ... (lambda (...) (apply (function my-reader-macro) ...))) and you redefine my-reader-macro it may not be taken into account. But if you use quote instead it will. 15:52:34 ah, that's true too. 15:52:59 hmm wait you mean that sometimes passing (function ...) would still get looked up dynamically? 15:53:14 by "dynamically" I mean at run-time 15:53:16 No, the contrary. 15:53:32 You'd use (quote f) to get it dynamically. 15:53:53 "... it may not be taken into account" <= I'd expect it to never get taken into account 15:54:21 (sorry, I overload the word "dynamic" to mean both dynamic scope, and doing stuff at run time) 15:55:02 <_3b> (function ...) is looked up at runtime, it is just a question of which runtime 15:55:13 matimago: how? (function my-reader-macro) is evaluated each time the lambda is invoked. 15:55:13 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:55:25 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:28 <_3b> if you close over the results for example, it won't get evaluated again 15:55:39 levy: you mean ELS09 15:56:25 Moe111 [n=Moe111@96.21.226.67] has joined #lisp 15:57:18 I don't remember exactly, it must have been either in a closure, or because of an inline. 15:57:52 Or block compilation. 15:58:15 <_3b> wouldn't just using #'foo vs 'foo as the argument to set-macro-character be the case you were talking about? 15:58:55 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:59:09 _3b: correct. It was (set-macro-character ... (function f)) vs. (set-macro-character ... (lambda (...) (f ...))) ; so not relevant to quote. 15:59:36 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.211.229] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 15:59:54 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 16:01:16 <_3b> hmm, actually, i guess when passing 'foo to set-macro-character , it is implementation defined whether it notices redefinition anyway 16:02:05 ltbarcly [n=user@75-138-213-210.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:02:36 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 16:02:54 hilooooo, is there anything available for CL that is approximately like BeautifulSoup for Python? (BS is an html parser that can read badly broken html) 16:03:19 minion: closure-html 16:03:20 closure-html: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/closure-html 16:04:15 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:04:19 pkhuong: ahh, very nice, thank you 16:04:54 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 16:05:29 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:34 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:08:01 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 16:08:28 lordy lordy, searching cliki for 'http' returns no results... 16:08:47 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:12 is there a canonical http client library? socket library? 16:10:05 ltbarcly: there's drakma for fetching stuff over http 16:10:11 minion: drakma for ltbarcly 16:10:11 ltbarcly: look at drakma: Drakma is a fully-featured Common Lisp web client library that knows how to handle HTTP/1.1 chunking, persistent connections, re-usable sockets, SSL, continuable uploads, cookies, and other things. http://www.cliki.net/drakma 16:10:27 minion: usocket for ltbarcly 16:10:27 ltbarcly: look at usocket: usocket is an MIT-licensed sockets networking library providing a portability layer encapsulating implementation specific sockets programming details. http://www.cliki.net/usocket 16:10:46 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 16:10:56 Does anyone know where Didier Verna's command line arguments parser library supposed to be? 16:11:01 I know these are pretty easy to find via google, but I really don't want to just randomly pick a socket library and then later it turns out there was the 'real' one people use and I picked the wrong one 16:11:18 thanks 16:11:40 is there a library that can make my netbook keyboard bigger? 16:12:14 ltbarcly: USB or bluetooth keyboard. There must be one on sale on this labour day. 16:12:37 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:12:48 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 16:13:04 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:14:55 perlhakr [n=perlhakr@c-71-204-5-66.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:03 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 16:16:06 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:17:21 -!- perlhakr [n=perlhakr@c-71-204-5-66.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:17:33 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:17:42 minion: closure-html 16:17:42 closure-html: Closure-html is a portable HTML parsing library that understands malformed HTML. http://www.cliki.net/closure-html 16:17:44 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student165-245.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 16:20:05 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:17 White_Flame [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:11 timor [n=martin@p5B306B99.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:22 -!- timor [n=martin@p5B306B99.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 16:23:38 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:24:45 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslca131.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:25:38 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 16:25:42 -!- skeptomai|away is now known as skeptomai 16:27:55 iwaki [n=hide@PPPa282.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:30:16 *Adlai* yells in disbelief that stumpwm just crashed yet again. 16:30:55 BELIEVE IT 16:30:57 at some point (and no, I don't have time right now) stumpwm needs to recover more gracefully from errors 16:31:20 at least they're CL errors, and not weird stunted elisp errors. 16:31:28 -!- woodz [n=woodz@host90-152-51-38.ipv4.regusnet.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:32:26 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:34:16 minion: chant! 16:34:16 MORE APPROPRIATE 16:34:42 Adlai: did it take down X 16:35:00 ltbarcly: nope, but it collided all my windows into one group 16:35:16 I usually have 3-4 groups and 2-3 windows per group 16:35:34 I now have 7 windows in one group ;_; 16:35:38 Adlai: I have to think it would be pretty easy to get that error code in there? 16:36:02 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:36:05 what do people here use to send emails? 16:36:11 maybe.... maybe not... don't care enough to take the time to do so right now, because it doesn't happen that often 16:36:13 just capture the current layout of everything when an error is signalled, then pop that into a temporary file or something, then check for that file when it starts back up? 16:36:13 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:36:27 hmm, that might be possible. 16:37:30 Adlai: I had a couple of errors that took X down though, I'm not sure how that was possible 16:38:13 probably X bugs that got unearthed in a stumpwm error recovery process 16:38:50 I'm having difficulty using BKNR's CL-SMTP sending out html messages through a Nemesis ESMTP server. The same code works on a SENDMAIL server, or on the Nemesis server but without HTML text 16:39:06 TDT [n=dthole@63.254.110.204] has joined #lisp 16:39:10 eh is there any way to get a string except for the last element? 16:39:36 any way other than (let ((temp string)) (subseq string 0 (- (length string) 2))) 16:39:42 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:55 HET2 [n=diman@nat66.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:39:55 What puzzles me is that I can send through the Nemesis server using a different mailer, and it works, and I can see nothing glaringly different from the message successfully sent, and the mysteriously dropped message from CL-SMTP 16:40:18 Moe111: tried looking at it with wireshark 16:40:23 er, make that a 1- 16:40:41 I will do that now. 16:41:00 -!- HET2 [n=diman@nat66.mia.three.co.uk] has left #lisp 16:41:03 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:41:50 Moe111: check the logs on this nemesis server and see what the error code actually is? 16:41:57 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:10 unfortunately, the nemesis server isn't mine. it's the ISP's 16:42:47 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Success] 16:43:18 I guess that's a no... 16:43:29 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:44:30 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.211.229] has joined #lisp 16:44:52 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:45:21 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:50 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has quit ["Valete!"] 16:46:21 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:46:34 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:55 HET3 [n=diman@217.171.129.66] has joined #lisp 16:47:01 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:47:06 -!- HET3 [n=diman@217.171.129.66] has left #lisp 16:47:11 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:23 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:48:30 depending on the isp setup, you could perhaps setup a mailrelay on the box send with, and then check the logs on that server. 16:48:31 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:48 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslca131.osnanet.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 16:50:17 -!- RauulSeixas [n=user5442@187.10.17.152] has quit ["eject"] 16:50:48 RauulSeixas [n=user5442@187.10.17.152] has joined #lisp 16:50:56 derdon [n=derdon@p4FC8DE62.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:13 -!- skeptomai is now known as skeptomai|away 16:51:31 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:51:46 _bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has joined #lisp 16:52:00 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:13 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 16:55:38 this is really perplexing. 16:55:54 wireshark says both emails are successful 16:56:08 (i.e. the server responds with OK) 16:57:09 HET2 [n=diman@nat66.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:57:37 I'll go on mail server forums instead of lisp. CL-SMTP seems to be doing what it should be doing. 16:57:52 -!- _bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:58:39 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has joined #lisp 16:58:40 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:01:25 adsjdsalkj [n=bakkdoor@xdslca131.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:02:34 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:38 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 17:03:50 -!- adsjdsalkj [n=bakkdoor@xdslca131.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:09:39 Moe111: if you're not married to cl-smtp, you could try with mel-base; it was made for mail readers, and comes with a properly sane smtp interface as well. 17:10:16 -!- ol3 [n=user@62.96.71.176] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:10:37 but if you plan to send a larger volume of mail, injection into a local (or close) mail relay whose configuration you control is probably a better idea. 17:10:54 paul___ [n=paul@g225081119.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:11:18 I'm thinking of doing the later, indeed 17:11:52 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:12:56 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:17 -!- HET2 [n=diman@nat66.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:13:58 if that still won't work with cl-smtp, you can fall back on mel-base later (: 17:14:19 Any sbcl-gc developer here? 17:14:34 (the garbage collector in sbcl) 17:14:38 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:14:55 meingbg: just ask your question. 17:15:08 -!- pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:15:26 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:34 ceiling xof is watching you hack. 17:15:37 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:15:38 i shadowed CL:IF to take a &rest parameter and it indents it to the left instead of the same as previous exprs 17:15:39 any ideas? 17:15:48 I guess this has been asked before, but would it be beneficial to have the gc run in a separate thread, not pausing the program during sweep? 17:15:56 meingbg: there is no sweep. 17:16:29 pkhuong: ok, I'm sorry. How does it work, then? I suspect I'm experiencing some kind of pause. 17:16:47 weirdo: (put 'if 'lisp-indent-function n) 17:16:57 in emacs. 17:17:19 pjb, wouldn't n be an unbound variable/ 17:17:32 Yes. Bind it! 17:17:47 you mean quote it? 17:17:50 C-h f lisp-indent-function RET 17:18:26 SBCL only has a copying (cheney) GC. The generational GC is still cheney, but with smaller chunks at in minor collections. 17:20:04 (put 'if 'lisp-indent-function 666) 17:20:09 perhaps it's not the most elegant, but has to do 17:21:16 For (if then &rest else) You'd want (put 'if 'lisp-indent-function 1) 17:22:30 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068078072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:09 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:10 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:23:19 it looks like slime-indentation conflicts with it 17:23:39 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:27 pkhuong: ok. But copying still means pausing. I'm talking about no pauses at all, ever. I don't really know anything about gc theory, but I don't see the problem, really. 17:24:42 Geralt1 [n=Geralt@p5B32BD80.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:42 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:24:50 Right, it pauses. What is your question? 17:25:03 -!- Geralt1 is now known as Geralt 17:26:57 (define-cl-indent '(if 0)) 17:27:00 this did the trick 17:27:12 Does the express version of allegro have anything like an ide or is it command line only? 17:27:17 -!- ejs [n=eugen@46-64-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:27:28 with a generational GC the pause are very short nowadays 17:27:41 mcspiff: windows and linux 17:27:43 ..sometimes! 17:27:53 joswig: bummer, thanks 17:27:59 -!- iwaki [n=hide@PPPa282.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:28:31 mcspiff: otherwise it comes with an Emacs integration via ELI or SLIME and some ancient X11 tools 17:29:04 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:29:10 -!- thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:29:34 would any sane REMOVE share substructure without :END and :COUNT? 17:29:47 joswig: ok, is that just true for the express version? 17:29:56 joswig: or allegro in general 17:30:06 allegro in general 17:30:07 i know, it could walk the list to the end to see if the end doesn't match 17:30:11 but it's a question of... sanity 17:30:18 pkhuong: I ask nothing but your opinion about the following setup: The gc is in it's own thread. All objects have a bit for marking them, which is set to zero. When gc is to be performed, the gc follows all references from the root, marking all objects. If a reference from a marked object is created during this phase, the referenced object should be marked. In the next phase, the unmarked objects can be free()'d, this in the gc thread also. Do 17:30:30 letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has joined #lisp 17:30:53 -!- RauulSeixas [n=user5442@187.10.17.152] has quit [] 17:30:53 milanj [n=milan@93.87.168.121] has joined #lisp 17:30:58 joswig: alright, maybe I need to setup a linux system then 17:31:07 meingbg: sure, one could write something like that. That's nothing like what's currently in the runtime. Again, there is no sweep phase there. 17:32:21 pkhuong: And since there's no sweep phase I take it there is no mark bit... so the actual object representation would have to be changed as well? 17:32:26 mcspiff` [n=user@drmons0501w-142068078072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:27 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068078072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:32:29 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068078072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:27 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068078072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:33:53 -!- mcspiff` [n=user@drmons0501w-142068078072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:33:56 meingbg: in-line mark bits aren't necessarily a good idea. In any case, designing the scheme is the easiest part in writing a new GC. Making it work in a complex and baroque system is much more challenging. 17:33:58 argh, fighting with the stupidness of text source files is such a PITA 17:34:00 dmiles [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:25 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-36-251.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:34:35 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:35:41 pkhuong: I suppose you're right. I just thought it would be nice with an open source lisp system with realtime capabilities. 17:36:02 meingbg: do you really need real time guarantees? 17:36:34 mbishop_ [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #lisp 17:38:05 pkhuong: It's not about the guarantees, but the experience. I pipe a VNC session through my lisp program, so when it does the gc, my desktop freezes for a few seconds. 17:38:28 a few seconds? What are you doing in that program? 17:38:37 you know what/ 17:38:43 (or, on what clunker are you running it?) 17:38:48 extra parens in COND pay for themselves 17:38:54 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["leaving"] 17:39:13 with long IF expressions it's hard to know where one clause ends and another starts, expecially when transposing sexps 17:39:39 so COND isn't as evil as it's though 17:40:18 pkhuong: I run the program on two boxes, one really slow and one pretty decent server. On the latter, the pause is like three or four seconds. 17:40:30 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:40:49 are you sure that the GC takes that long??? 17:41:11 joswig: No, just my experience. The pause is about that long. 17:41:27 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:41:33 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:42 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-101-220.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:44 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-218-72.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:51 lots of memory allocated? 17:41:59 joswig: nope. 17:42:12 then it's probably not the GC 17:42:48 Okay. I'm getting stupid in my old age. How do I determine whether a symbol is exported from a given package? (Starting from the symbol not a string.) 17:43:04 I.e. This but without the SYMBOL-NAME call: (find-symbol (symbol-name 'foo) *package*) 17:43:28 don't forget (symbol-package symbol) 17:43:38 ah 17:43:41 I see 17:44:01 gigamonkey: M-. on swank::symbol-status 17:44:06 what's wrong with SYMBOL-NAME ? 17:44:19 tcr: in a program. 17:44:39 joswig: well, it just seem a bit hinky. I've already got the symbol. 17:44:50 tcr: ah, never mind. 17:45:14 kerc [n=riise@31.84-49-151.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:45:15 gigamonkey: I explained the whole symbol status business in its docstring. Yes you have to use find-symbol + symbol-name 17:45:17 joswig: pkhuong: The program basically just pipes through any graphic data sent from the server. Any key press or release on the client may cause consing. 17:45:22 tcr: weird. 17:45:25 But thanks. 17:45:29 (do-external-symbols (x pkg) (when (eq x symbol) (return t))) 17:46:48 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-254-152.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:47:23 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 17:47:24 -!- TDT [n=dthole@63.254.110.204] has quit [] 17:47:28 -!- redblue [i=star@ppp109.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:48:06 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:48:11 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 17:48:56 How long time would it take to gc <30MB? 17:49:28 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:49:31 meingbg: microseconds. 17:50:01 pkhuong: Guess I should look into what I'm actually doing... 17:51:23 salva_ [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 17:51:38 imagine that you have a processor with a billion instructions per second 17:51:40 meingbg: it depends less on size, more on references that have to be tracked (well, copying can be slow if you have lots of small objects - big ones can be simply remapped) 17:51:49 and less than 30 MB to GC 17:52:49 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AB60.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:25 p_l: I have nothing but conses and small ints. 17:54:30 meingbg: still, 30MB is small amount in days of 400GB/s memory access... 17:54:44 It also seems strange that there's no macro--unless I'm missing something--in the DO-SYMBOLS, DO-EXTERNAL-SYMBOLS family equivalent to the present-symbols clause in LOOP. 17:54:59 Yeah, it should in no case take longer than a fraction of a second 17:55:36 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["bbiab"] 17:56:22 meingbg: I don't know specifics about SBCL's gc/gengc, but at least some GC implementations allow multithreaded GC, i.e. you don't have to stop all threads (they might get interrupted individually, though) 17:57:18 p_l: not here. Just a regular stop the world and copy. 17:57:59 guille_ [n=user@168.Red-81-33-184.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:02 hi there 17:58:27 drakma must have like 5000 dependancies? weird 17:58:43 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-36-251.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 17:58:46 pkhuong: I heard that the GC in new Apple's ObjC runtime works like that, with GC running in separate thread 17:58:54 pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:00:10 uh, WTF 18:00:21 i'm trying to clone svn://common-lisp.net/project/cl-xml/svn/branches/sbcl-0.9.x-testing but it breaks because it doesn't find `cl-xml/tests/xml`, have you had any problem? 18:00:35 somehow google groups stopped showing any c.l.l results from before august-july 18:00:44 any idea what's up with that? 18:00:51 -!- Athas` is now known as Athas 18:01:03 guille_: sbcl-0.9? that's retro 18:01:09 Perhaps the stuff that was given to ron garrets was mistakenly moved out :P 18:01:41 tcr: what stuff? I haven't been following it for the last year or so 18:01:53 I find that with a lot of lisp projects, there is some abandoned cvs repository that still kindof works but is 5 years abandoned, meanwhile the development has moved to git or darcs 18:02:17 mathrick: He asked google for a tarballs of the c.l.l correspondence 18:02:19 stassats: have you tried cl-xml with sbcl 1.x? 18:02:40 tcr: all of it? 18:02:42 TDT [n=dthole@254.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:43 guille_: you can probably get the version you want out of the git repo 18:02:44 i haven't tried it at all 18:02:51 and anyway, did he get it? 18:02:59 i've used cxml 18:03:01 iirc the git repo goes back a ways 18:03:06 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 18:03:08 mathrick: yeah 18:03:21 I still like beans 18:03:36 that's nice of them, I guess, but why are the archives so spotty? 18:03:39 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:03:47 google groups has been seriously deteriorating 18:03:53 each time they make a change, it's for worse 18:03:59 mathrick: google has been deteriorating in general 18:04:06 that's true too 18:04:08 it's a big company now, and therefore is retarded 18:04:41 the search feature in particular is these days just useless and ignored for c.l.l 18:04:47 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:05:07 yeah, but I just so happen to have a need for some past threads 18:05:20 the files erann got hold of has really been great, but i suspect even those do not contain everything. :/ 18:06:11 really smart people can accurately guess the intelligence of other people +-error. However, once you get a few people near the bottom of the error margin, they are worse at guessing other people's intelligence, so they let even dumber people in, and those even dumber people have basically no clue, so their guess of another person's intelligence is basically random. Once you have an company that has 3rd generation people with final 18:06:11 hiring authority it is all over 18:06:31 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Client Quit] 18:06:46 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:17 unless someone really smart is going around fixing it by firing idiots, but eventually you get an idiot in the role of firing idiots, and then you are HP 18:07:50 hypno: are these available somewhere? 18:08:20 google jumped the shark when they bought youtube, it proved there was nobody paying attention with half a brain 18:08:42 I dunno, as long as it's making them money, it makes sense from their point of view 18:08:59 youtube? I think it loses like millions of dollars a day 18:09:02 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:09:02 -!- salva_ is now known as salva 18:09:13 I have no idea 18:09:25 I mean, how much does google pay for 10MB of bandwidth 18:09:36 that's not really relevant to the topic 18:09:50 mathrick: hmm. the where put online somewhere, yes. not sure where tho, but i have them if you want them. :D 18:10:10 (LET* ((KEY (CAR #:WHOLE1305)) (VALUE (CAR (CDR #:WHOLE1305)))) ...) 18:10:21 why does sbcl do that, instead of binding each car to a gensym? 18:10:22 hypno: I probably do. How big is the thing? 18:10:27 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 18:10:48 weirdo: context? 18:10:54 mathrick: ~650mb as a stupid textfile. compressed probably half of that or something. 18:11:11 hypno: sure thing then, will be appreciated 18:11:27 are they supposed to be for forever? 18:12:12 mathrick, d-bind (foo bar baz) 18:12:18 baz will be caddr 18:12:39 especially since there's no common subexpression removal 18:12:42 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 18:12:56 They're specially handled by the compiler? 18:13:43 well, it's not like anyone does list destructuring in performance-critical code, but still... 18:15:47 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:16:09 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:16:19 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-101-220.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 18:16:39 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:19 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:03 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-118-222.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:21:05 Good evening 18:21:49 hi beach 18:24:41 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 18:25:06 Every time I'm trying to understand some code and I decide I want a big graphviz diagram of the callers to help me understand it I always end up being disappointed in the result. 18:25:51 what tool do you use? 18:26:01 graphviz teems with false promise and broken dreams 18:26:31 i use it constantly for other things, it works well, but its not perfect 18:26:55 Demosthenes: dot with a .dot file generated by some code I wrote. 18:27:52 I don't think the problem is with graphviz. It does what it says on the tin. I just have goofy expectations of how helpful it'll be to see the graph. 18:29:27 HG` [n=HG@xdslgv030.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:30:00 cschreiner [n=cp@cm-84.209.69.164.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 18:30:24 gigamonkey: i meant what was generating the graphviz data from lisp code. i saw a graphviz library that let you use sexpressions w/ graphviz... 18:30:32 but nothing that'd take apart and graph code 18:30:40 francogrex [n=franco@91.179.253.74] has joined #lisp 18:32:05 Basically I grovel over sb-introspect:who-calls's output. 18:32:11 hi, I'm trying to install uffi on sbcl 18:32:38 the uffi seems to be installed ok, but the tests not 18:33:25 does anyone have a simple example to test in sbcl? (that is a specif sbcl example using UFFI)? 18:34:30 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Success] 18:34:31 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:34:43 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:47 francogrex: why do you need UFFI? And can't you use cffi-uffi-compat instead? 18:35:22 nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:36:23 does anyone know if ECL will ever support creation of multiple contexts? 18:36:36 mathrick: I downloaded the uffi-asd to try. I guess I want to use some progs with uffi on both sbcl and ecl. ECL doesn't support cffi well 18:37:45 I suppose uffi (like cffi) can only be used to embed C written programs only 18:38:11 raptelan_ [n=Casey@c-68-49-132-34.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:29 francogrex: what else would it be used for? 18:38:51 the name uffi is a bit misleading 18:39:02 calling it 'universal' 18:39:52 it would suggest embedding other languages like fortran etc 18:40:26 it's universal since it works on all lisps, at least is supposed to 18:40:41 and I know people have been using CFFI to talk to FORTRAN 18:41:19 francogrex: http://middleangle.com/rif/derifatives/Home/21/cl-blapack-alpha-release 18:41:19 hmm: cffi to fortran; probably had fortran translated to C by f2cl before 18:41:43 if it supports a standard calling convention it can be interfaced usually. 18:42:06 how do you wrap sexps when the receiver expects just one sexp? i.e. (time (^wrap^ (something) (otherthing))) 18:42:28 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 18:42:54 you want progn I think 18:42:58 mathrick: interesting link; seems a bit abadoned though 18:43:10 guille_: PROGN 18:43:17 minion: tell guille_ about PCL 18:43:18 guille_: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 18:43:27 OmniMancer: that's it. my mind was blank 18:43:44 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslgv030.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:43:51 francogrex: I know I've been reading something by its author recently 18:44:34 mathrick: you don't happen to be the author do you? 18:44:41 not at all 18:44:52 ok 18:44:55 -!- kleppari_ [n=spa@212.30.204.85] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:45:03 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 18:45:42 -!- dmiles [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:47:30 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:49:14 ok i'm trying this: (uffi:def-function ("sin" c-sin) ((arg :double)) :returning :double) 18:49:34 error: debugger invoked on a UNDEFINED-ALIEN-ERROR: Undefined alien: "sin" 18:49:49 libm 18:50:07 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 18:50:12 francogrex: you need to load libm. Also, why are you using uffi? 18:51:04 francogrex: what's the problem with cffi in ECL? 18:51:14 -!- yakman [n=bot@94-194-134-155.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:51:18 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-19-234.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 18:51:33 Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-19-234.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:51:55 yakman [n=bot@94-194-134-155.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:52:08 -!- raptelan [n=Casey@c-68-49-132-34.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:52:15 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-19-234.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 18:52:41 p_l: Error opening shared object "c:\\MinGW\\lib\\libm.a when using: (uffi:load-foreign-library "c:/MinGW/lib/libm.a") 18:53:01 francogrex: you can't load libm.a because it is a static library 18:53:07 libm.dll, if any 18:53:08 mathrick: CFFI differs slightly from UFFI in that functions may be used even without being declared beforehand. This poses a few problems to the ECL backend, but hopefully these should have been solved in the latest releases. 18:53:25 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 18:53:33 this doesn't seem to have been resolved yet 18:53:37 francogrex: oh, I see. That's a pity, CFFI is really nice 18:54:04 mathrick: I know. If I could I would have helped development 18:54:10 m 18:54:15 bah 18:54:17 p_l: ok I will try compiling the dll 18:55:35 dyatel [n=dyatel@85.174.78.143] has joined #lisp 18:57:18 JayK [n=jakob@dslb-088-074-199-204.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:02 -!- antgreen` [n=user@205.232.189.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:59:35 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 19:02:58 -!- laynor [n=laynor@93.107.215.0] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:04:45 -!- dyatel [n=dyatel@85.174.78.143] has quit [Client Quit] 19:07:35 antifuchs: I lol'd at your latest blog post. Hacking bureaucracy! 19:07:47 laynor [n=laynor@93.107.27.105] has joined #lisp 19:08:14 Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A67D92.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:33 drewc, i'm stuck! :) 19:12:37 not sure what I've done wrong. I've been trying to follow some UCW documentation, but I can't find the /ucw/etc or /ucw/bin folders 19:13:26 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:13:27 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 19:13:54 silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-092-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:56 p_l: your suggestion works 19:14:01 I used: (uffi:def-function ("pbeta" sbcl-pbeta) ((arg :double)) :returning :double) 19:14:27 but suppose pbeta takes 3 args (1 double and 2 ints) 19:15:04 and it does. What syntax? (I promise to read the uffi manual afterwards, if such things are defined) 19:16:37 uffi manual doesn't seem that detailed anyway... 19:16:44 Are the sb-introspect facilities documented anywhere other than the source code? 19:18:12 iwaki [n=hide@PPPa282.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:19:09 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:19:42 They come with docstrings 19:19:43 felideon: what did i tell you about documentation... don't use it :) 19:19:48 -!- derdon [n=derdon@p4FC8DE62.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 19:19:52 heh 19:20:03 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32BD80.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:25 felideon: the old UCW(-dev) had configuration parameters and a binary directory. UCW-CORE has no such magic. 19:20:39 yeah, i gave up on the trac site and i'm reading teh gettingstarted.txt under /ucw/doc 19:20:44 drewc: it makes me think of the old xzibit macros... "sup dawg we herd you like getting married" 19:20:46 felideon: use the example code given as part of the getting-started.txt 19:20:57 "so we put a divorce in your wedding so you can wed while you wed" 19:20:59 tcr: thanks. 19:21:01 antifuchs: :D 19:21:16 drewc: gotcha 19:21:37 gigamonkey: Anything in particular that you're looking for? swank-sbcl.lisp may be a good ressource, too 19:21:45 felideon: if that example code doesn't work as advertised, that's a bug.. but ignore trac (i'll take it down) and any other docs you find lying about... they were never very good to begin with :P 19:22:09 I was just trying to figure out what the legal second arguments to find-definition-sources-by-name were. 19:22:11 In the docstring. 19:22:41 Is there any way to get all definitions for a symbol (i.e. a wildcard for the second argument) 19:22:43 gigamonkey: see swank-sbcl 19:23:08 drewc: how about the Marc Baringer video? 19:23:08 There's no wild card, you have to loop over everything. 19:23:31 drewc: nevermind, I think that was taken down too cuz I haven't been able to download it from anywhgere 19:23:51 gigamonkey: Such a function should probably be provided 19:23:57 felideon: the video is old enough to be out of date with regards to the details, but it's still worth a look if you want to get a feel for how UCW code is developed. 19:24:09 antifuchs: btw, you missplet "family" 19:24:10 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:10 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.247.98] has joined #lisp 19:24:14 Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 19:24:16 drewc: oh ok, do you know if it is available anywhere? 19:24:16 it should still be available on cl-net somewhere, but it's no great loss if you can't find it. 19:24:18 ouch (: 19:24:23 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:24:24 gotcha 19:24:27 thanks. 19:24:52 felideon: no worries. Another thing i can suggest is, if you're going to ask questions in #ucw.. idle there for a while after asking. 19:24:59 and in the title, too! doh 19:24:59 tcr: is there any reason to use sb-introspect directly as opposed to using the SWANK API. 19:25:02 (a while being up to a day or so) 19:25:04 manuel_ [n=manuel@f053042041.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:25:13 yeah i tried doing that, but eventually I had to shut down. I guess I can go /away 19:25:26 thanks, for the tip, though 19:25:43 gigamonkey: Depends on what you want, and you can live with the dependency 19:26:01 felideon: there is also the bese-devel mailing list, but i personally IRC more than i read mailing lists. 19:26:45 drewc: how's your plan coming together in which you decided to spend this year more on open source than on custom developments? 19:26:50 gigamonkey: If you want to read source code, better use swank. But's hard to do because some issue with sbcl's reader not throwing a continuable error. 19:27:14 tcr: I guess my question is, is there anything particularly interesting in sb-introspect that's not exposed in swank's API? 19:27:15 drewc: do you recommend setting up Apache + mod_lisp for UCW? or is the internal server good enough? 19:27:37 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:27:49 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:12 gigamonkey: sb-introspect:allocation-information, i guess 19:29:18 felideon: if you're serving a lot of static content, apache or nginx or something would be better than the inbuilt http. 19:29:36 -!- iwaki [n=hide@PPPa282.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:30:37 Fade: i see. thanks. 19:30:51 tcr: that doesn't look like something I need to grok source code. 19:31:07 It's a different kind of introspection. 19:31:57 -!- metawilm [n=willem@kabel-9-126.kabel.netvisit.nl] has quit [] 19:32:57 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:06 felideon: use the internal server 19:35:26 felideon: proxy to it from apache using mod_proxy, and use apache for your static content. 19:36:02 drewc: sounds good 19:37:02 ehu`: unfortunately, a couple organisations made me some offers i couldn't refuse, so it's been about 20% open source/community work and 80% getting paid work. 19:37:08 dmiles [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:24 ehu`: with most of the former spent on CLtL3 related work. 19:37:40 drewc: does tech.coop only hire Canadians? 19:37:58 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-148.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:38:02 -!- guille_ [n=user@168.Red-81-33-184.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:38:12 guille_ [n=user@168.Red-81-33-184.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:34 felideon: nope, we've had workers from Europe, Asia, Australia and the USA at some point. 19:38:37 hello 19:38:46 hey fe[nl]ix 19:38:49 felideon: It only hires nomadic sailors. 19:39:07 heh 19:39:15 that might have a ring of truth.. interest in sailing is a bonus! :) 19:40:00 ok, gotta run before they stop serving brunch at the pub, BBASE. 19:40:07 (be back after some eggs) 19:40:16 enjoy 19:40:43 hi drewc 19:42:49 egosh [n=Miranda@212.106.44.200] has joined #lisp 19:42:57 superjoe [n=superjoe@149-169-107-96.nat.asu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:43:13 cschreiner_ [n=cp@cm-84.209.69.164.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 19:43:22 is there a function that will iterate over n lists and allow me to perform a lambda on an element from each list? 19:43:25 -!- cschreiner_ [n=cp@cm-84.209.69.164.getinternet.no] has quit [Client Quit] 19:43:45 or perhaps this rephrase: how do you implement a sigma 19:43:54 -!- paul___ [n=paul@g225081119.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:43:59 clhs mapcar 19:43:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm 19:44:01 mapcar? 19:44:20 thanks 19:46:44 superjoe: I guess you're rather looking at reduce if with Sigma you mean sum 19:47:14 I'm having a hard time getting out of the procedural mindset 19:47:30 superjoe: see clhs map for a general version that operates on multiple *sequences* 19:47:39 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:47:43 in procedural I would loop from 0 to n-1, and return x(i) - y(i) 19:47:54 by return I mean total up 19:48:03 where x and y are lists 19:51:39 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:51:39 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-76-22-154-126.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:51:39 -!- silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-092-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:51:39 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [anthony.freenode.net 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robewald [n=robert@105.81-167-153.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:20 p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-lrkkhmlxynyhoatv] has joined #lisp 19:56:20 v0|d [n=user@213.232.33.243] has joined #lisp 19:56:20 frodef [n=ffj@226.80-202-87.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:56:20 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 19:56:20 erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 19:56:20 _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:56:21 they used it to implement the IDE they ship as an example application. 19:56:21 Fade: Ah, i should have said I was using sbcl. 19:56:30 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 19:56:30 manuel_ [n=manuel@f053042041.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:56:30 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.247.98] has joined #lisp 19:56:30 Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A67D92.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:30 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-118-222.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] 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it yet again 19:56:59 well, there are options, including commonqt, ltk, and clim 19:57:27 beach built a music typesetting system on clim which (I think) can run on a mac. 19:57:38 -!- JayK [n=jakob@dslb-088-074-199-204.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 19:57:46 Fade: i have built the example with clim and was wondering if it is kind of heavyweight. 19:58:01 wgl: http://www.inspiredata.com/InspireData is written in lispworks. 19:58:37 stassats: which is exactly what the mapcar example does. 19:58:48 but if you want a native mac interface, you should look at clozure. 19:59:03 sykopomp: yes, different styles 19:59:07 which can pull the neat trick of compiling down to a double clickable binary. 19:59:29 stassats: I was trying to show that mapcar is just a simplification of a foreach loop 19:59:30 ok this worked in uffi: (uffi:def-function ("pbeta" sbcl-pbeta) ((px :double) (py :double) (pz :double)) :returning :double) 20:00:04 mathrick, p_l: would I be better off using cffi instead? why? 20:00:08 and that looping does not necessarily mean "increase an index, access that index in a set of arrays" 20:00:11 sykopomp: and mapcar with reduce is a simplification of LOOP with SUM 20:00:19 Fade, gz: Thanks. Will start by looking at clozure. gz: InspireData looks rather awesome. 20:00:51 correct 20:01:03 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@80.139.50.200] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:01:03 so what's the problem, then? 20:01:12 silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-092-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:12 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 20:01:12 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:12 pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:01:12 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 20:01:12 octe [n=octe@78.129.202.55] has joined #lisp 20:01:12 c|mell [n=cmell@p14220-ipngn1701marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:01:12 tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 20:01:12 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 20:01:12 myrkridia [n=g@w005.z209031033.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:12 kei [n=gueorgui@gmt.su] has joined #lisp 20:01:12 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:01:12 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:01:12 clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 20:01:12 deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 20:01:12 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 20:01:58 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:00 salva_ [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 20:02:06 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #lisp 20:02:33 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:02:33 p0a [n=p0a@athedsl-385410.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 20:02:33 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:02:33 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:02:34 -!- salva_ is now known as salva 20:03:29 -!- housel [n=user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:03:33 -!- Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:03:33 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:03:41 How can I turn on abbreviations for CL? 20:03:41 emacs 20:03:42 sykopomp: mapcar existed before any foreach loop. So I'd rather say that foreach is a complexification of mapcar... 20:03:48 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 20:03:48 Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has joined #lisp 20:04:48 pjb: yeah. foreach is nice when trying to explain to algol-like people what it is map/mapcar is doing, that's all. 20:05:27 personally, I prefer using map for everything, and wish it were actually optimized into a mapcar when you have, like (map 'list ) 20:05:28 (I'm asking this in ##emacs too but I figured there's probably more people that know the answer in ##lisp). 20:05:34 -!- cddr [n=user@5ac9be7d.bb.sky.com] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:05:34 -!- bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:05:34 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:05:34 -!- froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:05:34 -!- xvx [n=user01@189.139.217.193] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:05:34 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:05:34 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-154-168.vodafone.hu] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:05:34 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:05:34 -!- Borbus [i=borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:05:34 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1A80.versanet.de] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:05:34 -!- cschreiner [n=cp@cm-84.209.69.164.getinternet.no] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:05:34 -!- tvaalen [n=tvaal@terminal.se] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:05:34 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:05:34 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:05:34 -!- skeptomai|away [n=nskeptom@c-67-170-103-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:05:34 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:05:34 -!- dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:05:34 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:05:34 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:05:34 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@adsl-75-42-224-116.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:05:35 makes me wonder why it's not done :\ 20:06:17 -!- Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:06:17 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:06:45 why do you think it's not done? 20:06:51 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:06:51 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:06:51 -!- Tril [n=tril@bespin.org] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:06:51 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:06:51 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.71.223] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:06:53 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.226.250] has joined #lisp 20:08:57 I don't know why they don't still write Algol 60, it looks like a nice language http://www.augustana.ab.ca/~mohrj/courses/common/csc370/lecture_notes/algol3.html 20:09:22 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@f053042041.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 20:09:26 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-17-204-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:59 meh I'll come back some other time 20:10:12 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:10:19 p0a: you might have a look at the slime manual. 20:10:34 p0a: what do you mean by abbreviations? 20:10:46 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@43-078.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [No route to host] 20:11:41 there's too much stuff going on right now 20:12:41 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 20:13:09 perlhakr [n=perlhakr@c-71-204-5-66.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:18 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? 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[n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 20:18:53 silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-092-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:49 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 20:20:44 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:20:56 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:17 -!- felideon` is now known as felideon 20:22:08 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068078072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:52 tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 20:23:48 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.247.98] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:24:38 anyone have problems building ccl from svn lately? 20:24:57 -!- RauulSeixas [n=user5442@187.10.17.152] has quit [] 20:25:14 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32BD80.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:41 -!- perlhakr [n=perlhakr@c-71-204-5-66.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:28:05 younder [n=jthing@251.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:28:28 mcspiff: not me(linux/x86) 20:28:44 i built it last week on a ppc mac without issue. 20:29:32 using the "Check for updates option" to pull in changes from svn, and then running (ccl:rebuild-ccl :full t) gives... 20:30:26 mcspiff pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86723 20:31:18 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-27-43.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:31:20 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 20:32:02 mcspiff: did you delete the old image before updating from svn? 20:32:02 -!- xan_ is now known as xan-afk 20:32:54 gz: nope 20:33:16 tythontemple [n=admin@dhcp-0-c-e5-54-48-d2.cpe.seaside.ns.ca] has joined #lisp 20:33:21 -!- tythontemple [n=admin@dhcp-0-c-e5-54-48-d2.cpe.seaside.ns.ca] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:33:55 try that. svn has this annoying bug that it won't overwrite a changed binary. 20:34:16 redblue [i=star@ppp152.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:34:28 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-128-159.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:34:32 -!- sepult_ is now known as sepult 20:34:34 hmmm in the package the ide builds...where would the image be? 20:34:50 dx86cl64? 20:35:00 dx86cl64.image 20:35:23 it should be at top level in the ccl directory 20:35:49 hrk [n=hrk@acurwa003013.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:35:57 ok, ill try this 20:36:26 -!- hrk [n=hrk@acurwa003013.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 20:38:27 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:56 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 20:38:57 emmy [n=em@72-63-168-177.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:05 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 20:39:34 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-9-204.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:39:42 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 20:40:58 perfect, thanks gz 20:43:45 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net."] 20:43:48 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:00 how can I update the stumpwm modeline in-place? 20:45:07 -!- yakman [n=bot@94-194-134-155.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:45:08 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:45:12 ie is there any quicker way than toggling it twice? 20:45:38 _jason1280 [n=thot@59-105-27-142.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has joined #lisp 20:45:44 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:45:54 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 20:46:17 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:47:04 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.84] has joined #lisp 20:47:30 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-28-117.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:48:43 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:45 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229225206.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 20:50:24 seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:51:16 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-17-81.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:51:28 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:51:50 -!- nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["Privacy rights are not to protect you from the government you know, they're to protect you from the future government you don] 20:52:20 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:54:25 -!- pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:55:21 -!- ltbarcly [n=user@75-138-213-210.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:55:42 -!- guille_ [n=user@168.Red-81-33-184.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 20:57:29 Adlai: Maybe you want #stumpwm ? (: 20:58:07 schme: probably, although in my experience it's had fewer wakeful stumpwm users than #lisp 20:58:22 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 21:03:54 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@220.135.231.23] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- francogrex [n=franco@91.179.253.74] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- younder [n=jthing@251.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- pbusser3 [n=peter@82.174.238.138] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- egosh [n=Miranda@212.106.44.200] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- wasabi______ [n=wasabi@nttkyo393252.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- nicktastique [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- octe_ [n=octe@78.129.202.55] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-98-245-87-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- Guest86281 [n=user@72.14.228.129] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-55-19-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- sepi [n=enigma@hcl-club.lu] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- Guest77280 [n=MrEd@bz.bzflag.bz] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- White_Flame [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.211.229] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-26-88.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-78-239.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 -!- trsh [n=mock@93-138-11-243.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:03:54 http://pastebin.com/m38f406d7 - am I missing some invocation keyword to get 'f' treated as a function? 21:03:55 "Error: The function F is undefined." 21:04:01 locci [n=nes@93.37.211.229] has joined #lisp 21:04:27 clhs funcall 21:04:27 :( 21:04:35 Buganini [n=buganini@220.135.231.23] has joined #lisp 21:04:35 francogrex [n=franco@91.179.253.74] has joined #lisp 21:04:37 Guest86281 [n=user@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 21:04:46 specbot: where art thou? 21:04:47 Adlai: I seem to remember it being very helpful. But it could have changed. 21:05:05 fgtech [n=fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 21:05:05 younder [n=jthing@251.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:05:05 egosh [n=Miranda@212.106.44.200] has joined #lisp 21:05:05 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 21:05:05 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 21:05:05 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 21:05:05 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 21:05:05 m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 21:05:05 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 21:05:05 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has joined #lisp 21:05:05 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.127] has joined #lisp 21:05:05 nicktastique [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 21:05:05 jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:05:05 wasabi______ [n=wasabi@nttkyo393252.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:05:05 mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 21:05:05 pbusser3 [n=peter@82.174.238.138] has joined #lisp 21:05:05 sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:05:23 why am I always on the server with the netsplits? 21:05:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_funcal.htm 21:05:26 ah, funcall 21:05:26 it's not scheme, right. :) 21:05:26 common lisp 21:05:52 sepi [n=enigma@hcl-club.lu] has joined #lisp 21:05:55 octe [n=octe@78.129.202.55] has joined #lisp 21:06:00 also, next time use lisppaste 21:06:03 lisppaste: url? 21:06:04 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 21:06:11 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-26-88.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:20 clhs incf 21:06:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_incf_.htm 21:06:30 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-98-245-87-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:31 -!- emmy [n=em@72-63-168-177.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:06:32 clhs with-condition-restarts 21:06:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_cnd_.htm 21:06:33 instead of setf with + 21:06:39 erk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 21:06:49 read that page with caution 21:07:03 and MAPC instead of MAPCAR 21:07:29 superjoe: incf is similar to ++foo from C 21:07:43 ah thanks Adlai 21:07:56 -!- _jason1280 [n=thot@59-105-27-142.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has quit [Client Quit] 21:08:05 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-52-254-152.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:08:28 thanks for the tips 21:08:40 I hate to be that new guy, but man lisp is so foreign 21:09:32 superjoe: are you reading PCL? 21:09:50 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 21:10:04 (btw, incf is better than ++foo because it takes a second argument, defaulting to 1) 21:10:05 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Killed by tomaw (laggy, restart)] 21:10:23 yes :D 21:10:28 no I don't even know what PCL stands for 21:10:32 I have ANSI common lisp 21:10:42 minion: PCL? 21:10:43 PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:10:51 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 21:11:15 thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 21:11:17 DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-55-19-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:22 -!- locci is now known as carlocci 21:11:37 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-157.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:11:58 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:12:06 trsh [n=mock@93-138-11-243.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 21:12:20 k I'll finish the book before I ask any more questions here 21:12:21 superjoe: When lisp stops being foreign the problem becomes "man.. I hate working with this language.. I wish I was using lisp" whenever you do something else :) 21:12:28 or would it not matter whether ls->vec is a macro or a function in this case? 21:12:34 superjoe: oh, you'll probably have questions... 21:12:51 iwaki [n=hide@PPPa282.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:13:05 ls->vec? 21:13:18 In which case? 21:13:40 I mean the defintion I have above to coerce lists to vectors 21:13:51 if it doesn't matter, always use function, rule of thumb 21:13:51 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:14:01 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:06 clhs coerce 21:14:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_coerce.htm 21:14:49 francogrex: I think I must have missed this whole thing. Where is this definition? :) 21:14:58 tagac [n=user@116.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:15:09 stassats: yes I know coerce but I meant whether it is better style to use: (defun ls->vec (ls) (coerce ls 'vector)) or (defmacro ls->vec (ls) `(coerce ,ls 'vector)) ? 21:15:22 francogrex: the former 21:15:39 also, in the latter, you'd use "vector", not "'vector" 21:15:55 (I think... am I wrong? 21:15:56 ) 21:15:58 really? 21:16:04 ok, I'm wrong :) 21:16:09 Adlai: ok; i would have thought better use the macro 21:16:12 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 21:16:22 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:16:27 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 21:17:07 I guess i'm still unclear on when to use macros when both can be used but as said, when both are equivalent, preference to functions then 21:17:11 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:17:15 Why do you want to use the macro? 21:17:21 francogrex: functions are much more flexible than macros in the sense that you can pass them to higher-order functions such as map and find... macros are better when you need syntactic constructs. 21:18:08 an example of a case where you'd use a macro rather than a function is writing your own loop flavor 21:18:34 schme: I guess I had the wrong teaching: I was told, when you find yourself using an "expression" too often, shorten your work by making a macro out of it 21:18:35 *Adlai* laughs at the unintended obscure object system reference 21:18:44 i can write it with functions 21:18:58 francogrex, that is just as true with functions 21:19:16 francogrex: Sure.. But how does having ls->vec as a macro make it all shorter? 21:19:16 Phaze: yes true 21:19:16 francogrex: unless you need to treat code as data, use a function. 21:19:31 ok 21:19:37 and ls->vec is unfortunate name 21:19:48 francogrex: I imagine you still write... (ls->vec foo) ... or with a macro you write (ls->vec foo) ;) 21:19:49 stassats: why? 21:20:00 and it doesn't really simplify anything 21:20:15 less strikes on keyboard 21:20:17 francogrex: because it's not named list->vector 21:20:18 -!- seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:20:25 *``Erik* wonders if "shorter" should actually be "easier to read" 21:20:32 basically, ask yourself, "How would I do this as a function?" and if you find that you'd want to treat code as data or call eval, those are indicators that you probably want a macro. 21:20:54 ``Erik: and easier to understand 21:21:00 francogrex, sometimes, though, you'll find that it can't be done with a function, or that you want the flexibility of a macro. for example wrapping code around forms (do-primes or w/e), or when writing your own definition macros (define-my-thing). 21:21:08 *Adlai* wonders if ``Erik has an easy time reading nested backquotes. 21:21:28 i'll understand (coerce x 'vector) much faster than (list->vector x) 21:21:46 <``Erik> adlai: only when they're easier to grok than the macro-less way O:-) 21:22:05 look 21:22:13 sorry 21:22:17 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-238-99.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:22:28 metawilm [n=willem@kabel-9-126.kabel.netvisit.nl] has joined #lisp 21:22:44 -!- metawilm [n=willem@kabel-9-126.kabel.netvisit.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 21:22:50 Anyone know how to make s-xml to parse a bit of a document into a dom, but handle the rest as a stream? 21:23:33 francogrex: I'm a bit confused as to how (ls->vec foo) results in less strikes on the keyboard than (ls->vec foo), but ok :) 21:24:00 schme: looks exactly the same to me 21:24:18 schme: in fact, it results in more: (> (length "defmacro") (length "defun")) 21:24:22 *schme* agrees with ``Erik there. Macros shouldn't be so much about "shorter", but more about "easier to read" :) 21:24:50 *schme* has slowly migrated to "code being readable" being more important than "fast" and "actually working" ;) 21:25:12 *Adlai* thinks that (quote (quote Erik)) is less readable than Erik... 21:25:37 schme: workingness is usually the top priority here 21:26:06 pkhuong: Yeah. That seems to be the case in most places :) 21:26:22 i think you should try to default to CLOS with CL. CLOS gives extensibility and flexibility within a solid framework. functionality of static nature is fits standard functions well. when you want to extend the language, and/or creating a DSL, which encapsulates a lot of boilerplate and/or tricky code (as in error handling) you turn to macros, ime. 21:26:34 <``Erik> :D I acquired the 'stealth marks' before I first touched scheme or lisp, to avoid nick wars on efnet and screw with mirc users O:-) no quasiquoting intended 21:27:16 ``Erik: how does this screw with mIRC? I've never used it? 21:27:19 *. 21:27:22 Wasn't CLOS abandoned and replaced by sheeple anyway? 21:27:35 (; 21:27:37 <``Erik> adlai: the ' and ` looked identical in mirc's default font in the mid 90's 21:27:41 schme: not yet! 21:27:42 schme, that was fast! it's not even done yet! 21:28:23 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-154-168.vodafone.hu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:29:05 -!- Phaze [n=PhazeDK@93.163.43.22] has quit ["goes to bed"] 21:29:12 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068078072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:30:23 Hmm.. 21:31:01 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:57 schme: contributors are welcome, btw, although sykopomp may disagree :P 21:32:30 hehehe :) 21:32:36 I very much wish I had the time. 21:33:06 running ones own company results in a lot more work than I had expected (: 21:33:08 -!- superjoe [n=superjoe@149-169-107-96.nat.asu.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:33:24 what widgets are you producing? 21:33:40 Producing widgets? 21:33:55 myrkraverk pasted "How do I optimize this (fast-fact), using SBCL?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86728 21:34:11 *schme* does not quite understand the expression. 21:34:16 really obscure movie reference 21:34:38 some blue collar fellow ends up on this resort island for rich people, and it's obvious he's out of place 21:34:38 is someone willing to help me optimize that fast fact function? 21:34:44 I produce better health and leaner physique for my clients :) 21:34:51 and somebody asks him, "What did you do to get here? Sold a million widgets?" 21:35:12 ah, those kind of widgets 21:35:13 myrkraverk: first, make a specialized vector 21:35:42 stassats, ok, will do 21:36:35 myrkraverk: Are you trying to optimize the function or the script? 21:37:13 sellout, just the function (and for the record, I'll have the caller check that the n is small enough) 21:37:42 patchwork [n=user@c-76-105-136-4.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:51 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.84] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:39:52 clhs coerce 21:39:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_coerce.htm 21:40:53 jaws [n=jolyonw@124-168-253-144.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 21:41:13 Hey all, I'm trying to get hunchentoot up and running, and I followed all the steps on this page: http://myblog.rsynnott.com/2007/09/getting-started-with-hunchento.html, but when I get to the last one, (testserv:start-server :port 8080), it gives me "The function START-SERVER is undefined." It seems this function was exported in the first line (defpackage :testserv (:use :cl :hunchentoot) (:export :start-server)), so not sure why this 21:41:13 is not working. Any ideas? 21:41:50 patchwork: read the manual instead. 21:41:56 this guide is too old 21:43:22 Xach: I went through weitz's 21:43:29 "your own webserver" section as well 21:43:42 on http://weitz.de/hunchentoot 21:44:24 but when I run the (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :hunchentoot-test) line, it returns NIL, and nothing seems to happen (ie, I cannot navigate to any page) 21:44:33 That is why I went looking for other sources 21:44:46 assuming I can figure out how to start a swank server on my stumpwm image, how can I connect to it with slime? 21:45:00 what should i read to learn clim? 21:45:07 Is the weitz.de site still the best source? 21:45:08 patchwork: first, returning NIL is fine. second, that isn't the command to start the server. 21:45:11 patchwork: yes. 21:45:12 specbot: clim 21:45:25 minion, clim? 21:45:26 clim: The Common Lisp Interface Manager (CLIM) is a powerful Lisp-based programming interface that provides a layered set of portable facilities for constructing user interfaces. http://www.cliki.net/clim 21:45:47 I'm making an interface to libproc to get information of running processes (using CFFI). Should I make a Lispstructure that gets all the information I can get so the user can acces whatever he wants using that structure. 21:45:48 weirdo: there's a spec somewhere, which (I hope) is similar to the clhs 21:45:56 -!- iwaki [n=hide@PPPa282.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:45:59 Or make specialized functions that just get 1 slot 21:46:05 Adlai, i once saw some docs at franz 21:46:05 or both 21:46:13 Xach: Thanks for helping. So I need to start the server after loading the hunchentoot test, got it 21:46:45 weirdo: ah, that cliki page has lots of links. I'm guessing at least one is helpful. 21:46:51 Or make functions for the most common slots and provide the structure as a final option when I'm too lazy to provide the specialised funtion 21:47:48 if my question makes sense :x 21:48:37 _mfm_ [n=mfm@c-98-239-97-203.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:31 Xach: that command runs, but when I navigate to /hunchentoot/test on that port, I get this crazy error: (SB-C::%COMPILE-TIME-TYPE-ERROR (20.0) (OR (MOD 1152921504606846975) NULL) #) 21:50:31 http://paste.lisp.org/display/86729 for a clearer question 21:50:43 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:50:46 "The value 20.0 is not of type (OR (MOD 1152921504606846975) NULL)." 21:51:16 myrkraverk annotated #86728 "Specialized array" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86728#1 21:51:42 is there something else I can do, except the specialized array? 21:51:57 this was an error I got before, that made me think that page was out of date 21:52:21 I compiled and installed hunchentoot with asdf-install, it seemed to go fine 21:52:28 (and I forgot to update the svref to aref, before the paste) 21:52:42 clhs mod 21:52:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_mod.htm 21:53:11 patchwork: look at the type specifier info for MOD... it's a subtype of integer. 21:53:27 well, not technically, but effectively so. 21:53:32 *myrkraverk* looks at stassats 21:53:54 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:53:57 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 21:54:33 (simple-array (unsigned-byte 32) (5)) rather 21:54:58 ok 21:55:18 Adlai: That does seem to make sense, that the float is not of type MOD. The issue is I'm getting this error just from trying to run the hunchentoot test server. I didn't write that code 21:55:56 I guess I could try to hack into whatever library to figure out how to correct the error, it just seems like this should run from install 21:56:17 So does this mean something went wrong with my install? 21:56:21 (of hunchentoot) 21:56:44 can you declare that an argument of a function should be a member of a list so it can get checked (if possible) at compiletime? 21:56:45 one option is to ditch asdf-install and try cl-build. alternatively, you can wait a few minutes and i'll try to setup hunchentoot myself. 21:56:50 myrkraverk: you can declaim it inline 21:56:54 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 21:57:08 oh, I guess there is something wrong with the code you're trying to run. Switching to clbuild is a good idea. 21:57:13 hypno: cl-build is better eh? 21:57:14 I can? 21:57:19 Adlai: Aha ok 21:57:37 myrkraverk: you can 21:57:40 (and my script doesn't work, but it the code works in the repl ;( 21:57:40 Thanks all 21:57:41 clhs inline 21:57:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_inline.htm 21:57:47 thank you 21:57:59 I will try cl-build now 21:58:14 minion: clbuild for patchwork 21:58:15 patchwork: please see clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 21:58:44 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:09 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:59:28 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:00:02 what can cause unhandled SB-C::INPUT-ERROR-IN-COMPILE-FILE: 22:00:02 READ failure in COMPILE-FILE at character 96: 22:00:03 ? 22:00:28 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:31 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:00:32 housel [n=housel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 22:00:40 hmm, why can't I 'load-op swank? 22:00:46 while it works to C-x C-e all the expressions in slime 22:01:10 Adlai: you've no swank.asd in your registry? 22:01:11 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:27 stassats: (asdf:find-system :swank) => blah blah aka I do 22:01:45 so, what happens on load-op? 22:01:50 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-27-43.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 22:02:11 *Adlai* looks up that stumpwm function that copies the last backtrace 22:03:01 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:03:17 errr that function isn't working. HMMMM. 22:03:35 -!- jaws [n=jolyonw@124-168-253-144.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit ["Computer goes to sleep!"] 22:03:51 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:04:34 got it, pasting.... 22:04:51 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 22:05:24 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-78-239.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 22:05:28 Adlai pasted "StumpWM Backtrace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86730 22:05:39 -!- francogrex [n=franco@91.179.253.74] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:05:50 doesn't seem too helpful, though. 22:06:02 oh wait. weeeeird. 22:06:06 that's not the error from load-op. 22:06:17 that's some other error... 22:06:48 myrkraverk annotated #86728 "And now inline" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86728#2 22:06:52 -!- silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-092-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:06:56 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:07:08 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:25 well, it's an error that no restart "abort" is available 22:08:01 the dissassembly slime gives me, is still huge 22:09:25 is it fast enough? 22:10:28 I was hoping I'd be able to see a disassembly en-par with the one from C(++) 22:11:43 do you care about disassembly or speed? 22:11:47 -!- triple [i=triple@pi.nxs.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:11:52 speed, actually 22:12:10 I'm trying to learn to optimize lisp 22:12:11 on modern cpus, speed is not necessairly proportional to the amount of asm instructions. 22:12:21 ah 22:12:33 (aref (load-time-value *fact-cache* t) n) 22:13:21 myrkraverk: do you want the fact-cache constant at run-time? 22:13:39 As for the rest of the code, the difference will come form bounds checking. 22:13:39 (that's essentially what pkhuong's suggestion does) 22:14:25 Adlai, yes, it should be constant (n! doesn't change it's value, and the array doesn't need to grow beyond the boundarise of 2^32 (which is 11, iirc)) 22:15:20 triple [i=triple@pi.nxs.se] has joined #lisp 22:16:21 is there anything else, that might speed this up? 22:16:36 (declare (optimize speed (safety 0))) 22:16:38 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.168.121] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:16:45 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:18:22 ah, that disassembly looks much better ;-P 22:18:52 billstclai [n=billstcl@dsl-205-231-25-43.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:56 but bear in mind, it's unsafe 22:18:57 am I done? or are there more optimization tricks? 22:19:10 so you better set safety to 1 during development 22:19:18 stassats: Well, he is trying to make it like C ;) 22:19:30 haha, yes, to a point 22:19:43 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:19:45 is there anything else I can do, that might speed this up, or am I done here? 22:19:47 -!- billstclai is now known as billstclair 22:19:58 (this of course, was my bottleneck) 22:21:17 Write it in fortran (: 22:23:14 haha (yes, I can do that) 22:23:31 but do I have any fortranffi, like I have cffi? 22:24:03 write LAP? ;) 22:24:23 LAP? 22:24:39 Alright, clbuild installed, ./clbuild install hunchentoot, and I get "darcs failed: Not a repository: http://common-lisp.net/project/alexandria/darcs/alexandria". Yet, a "darcs get http://common-lisp.net/project/alexandria/darcs/alexandria" finds a repository fine. What am I missing here? 22:24:44 the lispy way of doing inline assembler, i think. 22:25:08 FFFI 22:25:10 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 22:25:16 minion: please tell me about fffi 22:25:17 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``fffi''. 22:25:28 *Adlai* sad 22:25:37 myrkraverk: afaik it would only require adding some additions to cffi 22:25:44 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-78-239.iasi.cablelink.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:26:06 libwww error code: -906, hmm nothing on google 22:26:07 the calling interface is supposed to be standard between any loadable library... 22:26:11 p_l, ;) 22:26:26 You probably don't need anything like that. On x86, you only have to perform the name clobbering yourself (prefix with an underscore), and pass everything by reference. 22:26:29 (with emphasis on "supposed") 22:26:34 there are some subleties involved, at least for sun studio fortran 22:26:51 pkhuong, and add length of strings 22:27:45 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@96.21.226.67] has quit [] 22:27:47 passing string from fortran to C involves adding a parameter to the C function that takes the length of it 22:28:00 (and I assume it's the same for the other way around) 22:28:41 which means one can not call setenv() directly from fortran (of sun studio) 22:29:07 I think we should blame it all on C. 22:29:09 (: 22:29:23 ;-) 22:30:27 well, at least not on the stack based calling convention on i386 -- it *may* be all right on register passing architectures 22:31:15 assuming, of course, that the fortran programmer knows to add the terminating 0 22:31:46 why are C strings 0-terminated? 22:31:57 Yeah it's a bit of a bugger that 0 termination :) 22:32:36 I don't understand why it's there, given that C doesn't do bounds-checking anyways 22:33:06 but you do know when a string ends if you have it there, right? 22:33:31 without it, you would be forced to pass a length parameter or something... 22:33:31 I like having strings as two integers ... length address 22:33:33 (: 22:33:35 yeeees. 22:33:39 length address 22:34:10 s" foo" . . 3 38268736 ;) 22:34:17 heh 22:34:28 well address length, but still. 22:34:42 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 22:34:47 *schme* is very annoyed with needing c-to-f and f-to-c for stupid ffi :P 22:34:52 (declaim (ftype (function ((unsigned-byte 32)) (unsigned-byte 32)) fast-fact)) doesn't change the generated code, but does it add a safety margin? 22:35:15 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:35:25 you already have inline 22:35:27 myrkraverk: did you specify (optimize (speed 3)) already? 22:35:31 myrkraverk: it might change the code on some compilers (which might not exist yet) 22:36:18 p_l, no, only speed -- and no change to disassembly 22:36:30 Adlai, ok, so it doesn't hurt then ;) 22:36:30 speed = (speed 3) 22:36:43 ah 22:37:27 is it like the posix -On switch on C compilers? -O9 accepted, but only -O3 implemented ;) 22:37:50 -!- ljosa [n=ljosa@pool-71-184-165-211.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:37:53 Adlai: it *can* afaik change code on SBCL, when compiler has problems with ambiguous typing 22:37:59 myrkraverk: no 22:38:11 letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has joined #lisp 22:38:21 well, sun sudio c++ doesn't accept -O9, but iirc, gcc does 22:38:22 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:38:24 myrkraverk: no, it's completely working, just different implementations have different kinds of optimalization 22:38:24 stassats, ok 22:38:25 ah, so myrkraverk it could be that SBCL has enough info already to make whatever optimizations it could. 22:38:42 Adlai, I see 22:38:58 it is already declared inline, it will do whatever it can 22:39:04 myrkraverk: the optimize declaration is only specified to accept ranges between 0 and 3 22:39:07 clhs optimize 22:39:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_optimi.htm 22:39:09 myrkraverk: also, SBCL will issue notes when it has problems optimizing code (like "ambiguous types") 22:39:24 ah 22:40:08 hmm clim-desktop page mentions the lack of a mail client 22:40:12 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit ["RAGE QUIT WITH GLORY! ONTO IRC VALHALLA I GO! Actually... no... just meeting with family... sorry about lying with the rage q] 22:40:18 which is good, since i worked as a mail admin for a few years 22:40:22 CLIM, here i come :-) 22:40:57 merus [n=merus@pal-176-050.itap.purdue.edu] has joined #lisp 22:41:08 jayeola [n=user@cpc1-lamb2-0-0-cust650.bmly.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 22:41:56 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:42:42 after my previous declaim, adding (declare (type (unsigned-byte 32) n)) is only redundant, right? 22:43:18 weirdo, ah, so you don't want anyhing to do with mail then ;) 22:43:42 myrkraverk, actually, i do. it was fun being a step ahead of the spammers all the time 22:43:55 ;-D 22:43:59 and no moron even tried to convince me into supporting underscores in host names 22:44:08 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-27-43.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:44:23 who wants underscores in hostnames? 22:44:39 iirc, there are minuses 22:44:51 hyphens 22:45:00 and the difference is? 22:45:12 microsoft windows exchange server business enterprise technology solutions needs underscores badly 22:45:30 a "minus" is from arithmetic, a hyphen separates words 22:45:40 weirdo: no! don't write e-mail client! Only as separate app! Otherwise it will kill the project! 22:45:58 p_l, excuse me? 22:46:09 weirdo, no no no, we need minuses, then you can subtract windows exchange server business enterprise technology solutions from microsoft 22:46:18 weirdo: delayed reaction. I thought you were going to write an e-mail client to clim-desktop. 22:46:19 weirdo: CLIM stuff can be bolted together if you write it correctly. 22:46:21 i'll start with some MIME code, because i don't understand that part of the spec 22:46:47 weirdo, I once wrota a mime parser in C++ 22:46:49 p_l, that's what i'm going to do, after i learn CLIM 22:46:51 weirdo: and every project evolves only so long as it doesn't incorporate an e-mail client into a non-PIM app 22:46:59 p_l: what's wrong with that? 22:47:02 myrkraverk, i once tried reading the spec, but got bored to death 22:47:11 weirdo, the spec isn't so terrible 22:47:13 stassats: it will stop the evolution! :P 22:47:14 clim-desktop is just a collection of already existing apps 22:47:25 and doesn't evolve on its own much 22:47:55 p_l, i don't really get your point 22:47:56 (not that apps are evolving too currently) 22:48:08 weirdo, just write an elisp engine, and run gnus; that should keep both goals: have mail, and not stop evolution 22:48:46 oh god, anything but gnus, please 22:48:49 weirdo, (s)he means once an app can read mail, it stops evolving 22:49:40 stassats, emacs has a number of email clients, VM is a nice one too (used it for a long time, until I switched to gnus for mail as well) 22:50:09 then I switched to the google web thingy, and haven't switched back yet 22:51:09 thom_ [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:21 gnus is nice, the only problem is to find the hook to configure 22:52:09 myrkraverk: knowing emacs: `M-x configure-group gnus'? 22:52:50 gnus + google imap is a ball of pain. :) 22:52:55 or do you mean, find the correct hook for add-hook? 22:52:57 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:53:52 myrkraverk, emacs software is crap 22:53:57 using configure on gnus is a pain, imho 22:54:01 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-62-235.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:54:02 its only benefit is "hey, it runs in emacs" 22:54:32 it can't be compared to any program offering the same functionality outside of emacs 22:54:37 compare gnus to tin or to mutt 22:54:37 no, "hey, i can hack it in emacs lisp" 22:54:48 weirdo, there, I agree -- and part of the problem, is that emacs doesn't provide the abstractions to make nice software in it 22:54:58 myrkraverk, that's because of religious reasons 22:55:02 as is common in the gnu "project" 22:55:11 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 22:55:21 (see also spaghetti code in gcc, so that frontend and backend couldn't be separated) 22:55:38 yes, there is a reason I'm not using linux any more, and one of the thing is the religion in gnu 22:55:40 stallman refuses to allow FFI or packages, or an object model 22:56:14 well, stallman has stepped down hasn't he? or does he still veto such frameworks? 22:56:39 You'd think he'd like CLOS, since it's wildly incompatible with any one else's idea of what "OO" is. 22:56:43 object model will bring even more mess 22:56:51 sellout: :D 22:57:31 sellout: he hates CL because it's descended from Zetalisp 22:57:35 sellout, what do you mean? the only sane OO model is the Java one! -- erm, there is a contradiction there, right? 22:58:02 myrkraverk: nonsense, C++ is the only real example of object orientation. 22:58:27 s/the only/not by any means an/ 22:58:41 Adlai, he hates symbolics or something? 22:58:45 C is the only OO language :P 22:58:49 he said some unsubstantiated stuff about symbolics 22:59:04 like how they forced everything into a vendor lock-in and ruined LMI 22:59:13 weirdo: yes, he spent a very dramatic part of his life trying to clone the work of Symbolics 22:59:23 stallman has said many things, which makes me believe he doesn't understand many things, and is afraid of them because of that 22:59:40 myrkraverk: s/said/eaten/? 22:59:58 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 23:00:02 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:00:10 billstclai [n=billstcl@dsl-205-231-25-43.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:14 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:41 Adlai, maybe, I'm not a close follower of stallman, and don't know what he eats 23:00:52 myrkraverk: toejam, on occasion. 23:01:12 (whatever that may be) 23:01:25 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:01:34 It is possible to write object oriented style code in almost any language that gives you enough flexibility 23:01:50 in assembly, for example 23:01:51 blitz_ [n=blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 23:01:59 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:07 o rC 23:02:23 you can write object-oriented assembly code... just make an assembler macro for slot-value 23:02:55 or write a CL->asm compiler 23:03:02 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:03:03 yes 23:03:07 -!- billstclai is now known as billstclair 23:03:19 its a little difficult in BF 23:03:32 what isn't? 23:03:55 turing tarpits tend to display that property 23:04:14 more like Turing FUNpits! 23:04:20 :P 23:04:53 I don't need no stinking turing machine! 23:05:12 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:05:55 nonono a turing tarpit is a language that has been designed to be turing complete but almost impossible to do anything useful in due to terrible syntax and other things 23:06:20 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 23:06:36 http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/4569/emacs.png - my new desktop with antialiasing; dunno what's the black rectangle 23:07:13 OmniMancer, you mean, like CL ? ;-D 23:07:18 i need to replace emacs with something 23:07:22 *OmniMancer* bafs. 23:07:31 weirdo: climacs 23:07:43 stassats, will it work? :-) 23:07:46 i mean, i'm scared 23:07:53 weirdo: and black rectangle is just an abstract art 23:08:12 it will 23:08:24 *OmniMancer* decides to learn VHDL 23:08:27 FSVO work 23:08:53 weirdo: be ready to do a lot of debugging and corrections... 23:09:59 "real programmers use emacs" -- " no no no, real programmers implement their own emacs or vi" 23:10:13 lol myrkraverk 23:10:48 no *real* programmers create a hardware implementation of emacs using VHDL :P 23:10:58 hahaha 23:11:17 lisp in hw actually sounds nice, for some obscure reason 23:11:19 minion: vhdl for me 23:11:20 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``vhdl''. 23:11:30 what's vhdl? 23:11:39 VHSIC Hardware Description Language 23:11:45 v(irtual?) hardware description language 23:11:48 Very High Speed Integrated Circuits 23:12:05 its a hardware description language :D 23:12:15 ah 23:12:41 so basically a theoretical Lisp Machine? 23:12:41 OmniMancer, so, I can't use it to lay out may ant-farm-lisp-machine ? 23:12:51 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:12:55 theoretical in the same way as JMC's paper was theoretical 23:13:04 adlai no its generic 23:13:08 *myrkraverk* needs a hex, like in discworld 23:13:11 ie, it could be implemented by some headstrong rebellious s.o.b. grad student 23:13:27 and vhdl is used in industry 23:13:38 Adlai: no, it's a language where you can specify the structure of an IC. 23:13:53 yes 23:14:05 its used for specifying models 23:14:25 oic 23:14:28 which can in turn implement lisp, which can in turn implement a java virtual machine -- you know, to be java compatible, and stuff 23:14:52 Adlai: and pure VHDL is not enough to make a circuit, you need programs that will generate actual paths etc. 23:14:58 java implemented on top of a hw lisp machine, sounds only horrible, but that's just me 23:15:27 *p_l* has some VHDL/Verilog projects on "finish before graduation" list 23:16:01 but VHDL is largely independent of the means used to produce the circuit? 23:16:02 p_l, I'm just doing mathematics, so I can do everything as theoratically as I want 23:16:42 OmniMancer: definitely independent. AFAIK it was introduced as means to supply schematics to clients 23:17:03 it can also be used to program FPGAs? 23:17:09 OmniMancer: yes 23:17:23 did you see how stallman got flamed on openbsd-misc? 23:17:38 weirdo, no, was that irc? 23:17:40 that's what I plan to do (and then get access to 45nm process :D) 23:17:48 weirdo: link or didn't happen 23:18:13 p_l, I thought it was "screenshot or it didn't happen" ;) 23:18:26 http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=119730630513821&w=2 23:18:36 myrkraverk: screenshots are way to easy to manipulate (famous RIAA trials...) 23:18:57 notice the replies. streams of them. he got roasted 23:19:39 -!- tagac [n=user@116.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["/* */"] 23:19:39 p_l, oh, and who didn't know that? even photogrags are easy to manipulate 23:20:36 myrkraverk: photographs are harder to manipulate for various reasons 23:21:25 weirdo: RMS can get roasted IMHO :-) 23:21:38 p_l, true, but not that much harder, for a skilled manipulator -- it's just a question of time 23:21:45 RMS can drop dead and go to hell 23:22:11 he's full of bull. how can software become more "free" by adding more restrictions to the license? what a hypocrite! 23:22:15 no no no, there is no such place, it's a misconception of the catholic church 23:22:24 it's a figure of speech 23:22:27 transfer your discussion to ##anti-rms 23:22:31 weirdo, ;) 23:22:36 stassats, sorry 23:22:55 weirdo, I believe the name comes from nordic mythology: Hel is the ruler of the underworld (iirc) 23:23:12 weirdo, "freedom" has a well known paradox; it includes the freedom to take freedom away 23:23:43 weirdo: marco, you're forgetting that this is what "freedom" is all about in the US: i tell you what free is... and what the definition of is is... ahahahaha 23:24:17 myrkraverk: it might be, for english language :P 23:24:29 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 23:24:30 weirdo: a little less freedom for software x, so we gain more freedom for software y and z that derive from x. Seems good. 23:24:37 p_l, yes, enfer in french doesn't come close 23:24:43 oh goodie, another silly discussion about whether the gpl is actually "free"? 23:25:08 pjb, 3-clause license is arguably more "free" than gpl 23:25:09 weirdo: otherwise, I'll give away my software when the grocery will give me away the fruits I need to write it. 23:25:20 not to mention mit/x11, 2-clause bsd, public domain... 23:25:31 weirdo: silly argument is silly! 23:25:34 personally, I like CDDL 23:25:41 BSD ftw 23:25:45 weirdo: Yes, but until you get fed and clothed and sheltered and powered for free, you have to trade. So GPL it be. 23:25:45 for my "free" stuff, that is 23:25:48 myrkraverk, obivous troll is obvious 23:25:59 CDDL is horrible 23:26:05 i mean, they can revoke their license at any time 23:26:14 and they own all the changes 23:26:25 last I checked the only appeal of CDDL is that it's GPL-incompatible, and some people get their panties in a bunch about stuff like that. 23:26:29 why is programming about licensing? 23:26:40 indeed 23:26:41 who cares about some stupid licenses and politics? 23:26:49 why can't licensing be about programming? 23:26:58 weirdo, that, I believe, is a misconception of yours, but that really isn't important 23:27:15 filthy capitalists invented copyright and shoved it down everyone's throats 23:27:16 you can hire a lawyer, no problem 23:27:34 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.84] has joined #lisp 23:28:12 why don't we write software that will result in the lawyers all being sent to antarctica? 23:28:33 weirdo: capitalism is a law of the univers as well as gravity. Would you say filthy gravitationists? Silly. 23:28:38 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:40 this ain't #philosophy as well 23:28:55 pjb, capitalism is nothing but a modern invention 23:29:07 more lisp 23:29:10 minion: chant 23:29:10 MORE LISP 23:29:20 lol 23:30:26 weirdo: licensing is easy if you don't care about it --> WTFPL 23:30:36 "Do whatever the fuck you want with this code." 23:31:23 or you can put it in the public domain which is nearly the same but protects people from copyrighting it 23:32:21 OmniMancer, only in countries where "public domain" has a legal merit 23:32:37 which is why you should use the WTFPL. 23:32:46 *Adlai* trolls with pride. 23:32:50 :P 23:33:06 (for a license he has never used and hated the moment he saw it) 23:33:07 Adlai: until someone will come to you and say that you violate someones patent, go prove your prior art 23:33:14 or you could write everything in VHDL and I doubt anyone would steal it :P 23:33:24 and if you really want to troll, you can always roll one in world of warcraft 23:33:38 stassats, patents? where? in the european union? 23:33:46 or you could work on a time machine for the purpose of proving prior art :D 23:33:48 stassats: "prior art"? 23:34:04 weirdo: not everyone lives in european union 23:34:08 if you can prove you had it before they patented it they throw out the patent 23:34:09 some lisp: http://sw.nostdal.org/resize-event-app .. using vecto, cl-vector and zpb-ttf.. the label should scale when the window is resized.. i've patented this btw.; screw licenses..... :P 23:34:24 lol 23:34:33 OmniMancer, unless the case is filed in texas 23:34:39 in which case they win no matter what 23:34:58 lnostdal: not very smooth 23:35:43 stassats, yeah, 250ms rate limiter or "debouncer" 23:35:49 stassats: I enjoy listing my code in places where software patents are illegal 23:35:52 lnostdal, it appears to be downloading a new image every time 23:36:41 -!- younder [n=jthing@251.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:36:43 yeah, screw css, weirdo .. it doesn't work 23:36:48 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068078072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:28 lnostdal: what happens if I have a 1e6 by 1e6 display? 23:37:44 pkhuong, it blows up 23:37:51 haha :) 23:38:01 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-164-80.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:33 it is not very solid at all atm. 23:39:08 let's port clim to output javascript and html! 23:39:15 ooo 23:39:32 weirdo: been done once, except without JS iirc 23:40:10 p_l: you mean CLIM to raw html? 23:40:19 heh 23:40:23 Adlai: plus GIF images 23:40:37 hmmmm 23:42:58 hi, im a beginner in lisp trying develop a cms, i'm getting an error that don't know how resolve, and a few moments ago seems work well, this is the error package "ROUTES.H" not found, in this explresion (setq hunchentoot:*dispatch-table* 23:42:58 (list (routes.h:make-dispatcher *map*) 23:42:58 #'hunchentoot:default-dispatcher)) 23:44:00 i put routes in depends-on in xirafa-app.asd 23:44:02 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:44:09 which both includes a lot of MSFTers <--- what does that mean? 23:44:16 myrkraverk, MSFT == microsoft 23:44:22 ah 23:44:51 salva, a package named "ROUTES.H" doesn't exist 23:45:09 yes, but a few moments ago it runs 23:45:29 perhaps you need to load the package first 23:45:38 i mean, load the system that includes the package 23:45:54 have you loaded whatever defines the routes.h package 23:45:57 ok, may be before i load it in the repl 23:47:57 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:54 emmy [n=em@173-118-88-106.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:20 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:49:30 -!- emmy is now known as emma 23:50:17 does sbcl allow hand crafted assembly rutines? 23:50:28 would it be a welcome patch to hyperspec.el to make the browser customizable separately from the default browser? (I want to browse the hyperspec using a text-mode browser that'll start up faster than my default browser) 23:50:58 myrkraverk: it does 23:51:14 Adlai: you don't need to hack it 23:51:17 stassats, hint for what to read? 23:51:21 pkhuong, it even divides by zero when the window is too small :) 23:51:22 stassats: where could I set that? 23:51:32 Adlai, add an advice 23:51:39 browse-url-browser-function is an alist 23:51:59 read documentation for it 23:52:02 well, it did .. think i fixed that now .. somebody is trying to create huuge images here though .. lol 23:52:10 sbcl: 100% CPU usage 23:52:12 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:52:16 stassats: hmm, interesting... still a bit pita though :\ 23:52:32 no, it isn't 23:52:35 *Adlai* hates emacs regex even more than he hates elisp and regex combined. 23:52:56 i have (("http://paste\\.lisp\\.org/\\(\\+\\)\\|\\(display\\)" . lisppaste-browse-url) ("HyperSpec" . w3m-browse-url-other-window) ("." . browse-url-firefox)) 23:52:58 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:53:18 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:53:19 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:33 (this is probably slow as hell; torrents :P) 23:53:58 -!- mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068078072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:54:01 mcspiff [n=user@drmons0501w-142068078072.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:11 stassats, I was asking for a hint on what to read of the sbcl manual; browsing it now 23:54:15 stassats: what do you use for lisppaste-browse-url? 23:55:09 lisppaste.el 23:55:57 stassats: oh, that's neat. I'll add that too. 23:59:20 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:59:49 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp