00:00:18 it works, i've done half the practical common lisp book and the spel casting tutorial so far just fine 00:00:35 deepfire: that doesn't convince me 00:00:38 the only reason i recommend the ubuntu packages is because its something emma would probably know 00:00:47 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:00:53 I say, just install SLIME, run it, and FORGET about EVERYTHING else for the time being, if she just wants to learn lisp. After getting comfortable, she can learn things as she needs them. 00:01:03 lisp sorta bakes your noodle when you get started because you haveto know quite a lot about what lisp is, emacs, slime, asdf and other things to really get going 00:01:21 dralston: I'd say, just install CLISP, run it, and forget about everything else for the time being 00:01:24 so the above instructions will get her running in less than 5 minutes, no googling 00:01:34 Yeah, even better. 00:01:37 i say no, the clisp interface is horrid 00:01:37 i didn't know about emacs, slime, asdf, etc. when i started to learn lisp 00:01:42 you need emacs and slime to learn 00:01:48 holycow: no you don't. that's nonsense 00:02:01 you need slime and emacs if you want to develop large systems or simply do some decent coding 00:02:05 stassats`, not everyone is as energetic and persistent as you are. 00:02:19 yes you do, the average non lispers frame of reference is things like c++, bash, python, etc. 00:02:25 but CLISP is fine to try examples and learn the language. Just the up/down arrow functionality (which is achievable in SBCL with additional caring), is enough 00:02:28 I apologize to everyone who may be reading this one day. We find one person interested in learning Lisp, and start spouting acronyms and contradicting advice. :P 00:02:30 even python you don't learn from interactive sessions in the interpreter 00:02:32 you need emacs and slime if you are serious about lisp 00:02:34 you write scripts and run them 00:02:45 right you need emacs and slime *nod* believe me, i tried 00:02:52 yeah, whatever. 00:02:59 I've tried what you claim to be impossible and worked fine for me 00:03:05 so, bieleve me, I've tried. 00:03:14 holycow: i'll believe you after double blind study 00:03:15 *nod* i'm not negating your statement 00:03:40 indeed, it may work for a lot of people, there is a group taht will need the emacs slime interface tho 00:03:50 different things work for different people. what's best would be an actual explanaton of the differences... emma do you understand the difference between clisp and getting/setting up slime? 00:05:06 As far as I'm concerned, CLISP, and the online copy of Successful Lisp should be enough to get on one's feet. 00:06:17 most people want to do something more interesting than writing code in an interpreter imho 00:06:35 its fine to test out basic ideas, i don't see how you can follow what you are learning without a text editor in front of you 00:06:55 Well, of course! Once you have a basic understanding of how everything works, you move on to a full text editor. 00:07:07 holycow: vim? 00:07:21 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 00:07:25 or, why not just move on to an editor right away, the way python, c++ and java people do? 00:07:39 It's only a question of how easy it is to set up. 00:07:42 i mean compiling lisp via slim isn't exactly hard, infact its super convenient 00:07:47 3 minutes flat 00:07:48 wait, no one advocates absence of the editor 00:07:50 holycow: because they don't have a real repl? :P 00:07:50 there is no setup 00:08:08 on ubuntu / debian anyway 00:08:33 what about mind? 00:08:42 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 00:08:49 emma one more line to add to the instructions: to compile in slime it is C-c C-k for the whole application or C-c C-c for just the form you are working on 00:09:31 and how to open a file, what the hell this "C" means, etc? 00:09:45 Control, I think? 00:10:30 well there is that, emacs is something one must learn the hards way, no two ways about that 00:10:57 so, the right additional instruction is C-h t 00:11:10 oh right that too *nod* 00:11:35 hmm, maybe there should be a slime-enhanced C-h t? 00:11:44 slime.mov 00:11:55 after that 00:11:57 minion: slime.mov 00:11:57 slime.mov: "using SLIME" video by Marco Baringer, http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 00:12:39 stassats`: hm, true. 00:12:44 now ... to actually try and use vecto and learn a bit more about asdf 00:12:45 heh 00:12:52 there's still something to be said for an in-emacs slime tutorial 00:13:10 have fun, holycow. vecto is pretty good. 00:13:23 Adlai: it wouldn't hurt, so you can start writing it 00:13:33 (as is zpng and cl-vectors. am very happy with both) 00:13:34 i would second that and i would second writing some sort of emacs extension that pulls in some kind of xml'ified tutorials from online repos for learning lisp 00:13:52 with some minial interactivity in say a vertically split frames in emacs or something 00:13:53 stassats`: someday... :) 00:14:09 antifuchs: :) it looks like it!!! very exciting to try this out 00:14:48 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:15:13 *Adlai* heads off. Goodnight! 00:15:21 'Night! 00:16:04 -!- [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.95.42.206] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:17:37 -!- r0bby_ is now known as r0bby 00:18:11 Can't I have both &optional and &key? 00:18:21 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-252.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:18:22 you can 00:18:34 but don't, please 00:18:59 I have a function that takes a sexp, a set of rules and another function 00:19:10 the set of rules is (&optional (set *rules*)) 00:19:33 There's no reason to put the other function before or after 'set' -- one might want to specify one or the other 00:19:48 well, why it needed to be optional? 00:20:23 p0a: in general, avoid &optional. Rather use &key. 00:20:51 (funcall (lambda (x &optional y &key (z 1)) (list x y z)) 1 :z 2) 00:20:53 you can imagine, how much pain caused READ-FROM-STRING 00:20:55 pjb: that's what I will do 00:21:11 stassats`: because you might want to use the default set or provide your own 00:21:34 the same with &key 00:21:49 :set (list x y z) 00:22:00 I used &key for both 00:22:34 for both what? 00:22:58 both arguments, the rules set and the function 00:23:13 i don't get you 00:23:18 (lambda (x &key (foo foo-def) (bar bar-def))) ...) 00:23:40 so, what's the problem? 00:24:01 < p0a> pjb: that's what I will do 00:24:07 ^ that's when my problem was solved 00:24:12 there's no problem now 00:24:24 blitz_ [n=blitz@dslb-094-222-045-226.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:32 -!- patmatch [n=wmbot@dsl093-216-036.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:24:34 evening 00:25:18 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:26:23 -!- sepult [n=user@87.78.26.65] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:26:24 Adlai, no not quite. I think that slime is made with lisp, and you have to run it in emacs. 00:26:47 patmatch [n=wmbot@dsl093-216-036.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:54 emma: I believe you're correct. Slime is run in the external Lisp, and emacs interfaces with it over a port. 00:28:24 M-x slime in any buffer runs slime as long as you have it installed from ubuntu repos 00:28:29 slime consists of two parts, Swank, written in common lisp, and Slime, written emacs lisp 00:28:35 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 00:28:38 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:28:38 Yes, that was it! 00:28:47 they communicate with each other through wire protocol 00:28:55 neat 00:29:11 there are also swanks written in scheme and clojure 00:29:33 Wow! Now, THAT I did not know. 00:29:58 c|mell [n=cmell@p14220-ipngn1701marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:30:02 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p14220-ipngn1701marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:30:17 copycats 00:32:43 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-373693.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 00:35:01 asdf-install rocks 00:35:17 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 00:35:26 Seconded! It's like a Lisp package manager. >:) 00:36:00 like a bad lisp package manager 00:36:12 ... Yeah, also seconded. 00:36:15 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:27 sadly, there's no good, but clbuild is better 00:36:52 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 00:38:03 okay so next noob question: http://www.xach.com/lisp/vecto/#sect-examples 00:39:19 i've installed vecto, i presume i need cl-vectors as well. when i want to run one of those examples by say copying it into and emacs buffer, compiling it with slime ... what is the next step to get it to run? 00:39:56 in the repl! 00:40:07 who promoted slime? 00:40:31 hey man, it took ages just to wrap my noggin around all this shit, i'm actually trying to use it now! 00:40:33 lol 00:41:19 Be careful. Two days after I thought I had my head wrapped around list, it came to my house in an unmarked van and kicked my ass. 00:41:24 Lisp* 00:41:26 well, that's dead simple, C-c C-z, (feedlike-icon "/tmp/foo.png") 00:41:31 lol 00:42:00 C-x C-f /tmp/foo.png 00:43:01 saikat_ [n=saikat@r253170035.resnet.cornell.edu] has joined #lisp 00:43:26 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 00:43:30 oh of course, renders it to file. 00:43:54 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 00:43:58 (your emacs should be compiled with png support) 00:43:58 danke 00:44:04 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 00:47:34 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:50:01 pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:50:11 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:51:20 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 00:53:03 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-1-48.w90-59.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:54:09 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:55:37 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 01:02:17 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1F6EF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 01:04:10 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@krlh-4d0363e8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [] 01:13:34 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:24 whoppix_ [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 01:16:03 -!- JSas [n=J@124-168-242-53.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 01:16:27 -!- pve_ [n=user@dsl-hkibrasgw3-ff2dc000-174.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:16:53 R0b0t1 [n=Enigma@unaffiliated/r0b0t1] has joined #lisp 01:16:59 How would I create an alias for a function? 01:17:41 why would you want to? 01:17:49 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@67.249.56.101] has quit [] 01:18:06 I'm using a text-to-speech program, and some of the commands are a tad long to type out :) 01:18:12 It happens to have a lisp interpreter. 01:18:21 hve/use 01:18:21 Adlai`` [n=adlai@93-173-173-95.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 01:18:22 festival? 01:18:25 Mhmm 01:18:56 Supposedly defvaralias would work, but I think that's a GNU thing which it doesn't have. 01:19:22 what text-to-speech program and what lisp does it use? 01:20:15 Festival... I'm not exactly sure, but I don't think it has any GNU extensions. 01:20:35 R0b0t1: here's one simple way 01:20:41 well, it uses scheme 01:20:41 *R0b0t1* listens. 01:20:45 Argh 01:20:47 :\ 01:20:48 My bad. 01:21:09 (defun foo (&rest bar) (apply #'your-func bar)) 01:21:10 but anyway, just define a function which calls desired function 01:21:22 could even make a macro 01:21:27 hm 01:21:32 (define (foo . rest) (apply bar rest)) 01:21:33 stassats`: is there a way to extract the lambda list from a function? 01:22:01 no portable, but why do you need to? 01:22:45 using apply rest is good because it sustains redefinitions 01:22:48 Thank you 01:22:50 That works :) 01:22:59 I was thinking about (defmacro defalias (from to) `(defun ,to (&rest args) (apply #',from args))) 01:23:13 -!- pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:23:16 and realized that it would be even cooler if slime's argument statusbar hints carried over 01:24:21 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:25:22 Ralith: then just (setf (fdefinition 'foo) #'bar) 01:25:38 oh, nice 01:26:03 I guess slime uses impl-specific logic to exctract lambda lists? 01:26:05 but, it won't catch redefinitions of BAR 01:26:11 it does, yes 01:29:14 I thought some of you might find this amusing -- http://fukung.net/v/11659/f85db7dd6f637a582a6154387525364e.jpg 01:30:21 emma: cadar? really? 01:30:35 clhs cadar 01:30:35 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_car_c.htm 01:30:39 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h6n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 01:30:40 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:31:21 I know what it is, but isn't it horribly bad practice to use? :P 01:31:30 no 01:31:46 it's better than (car (cdr (car x))) 01:32:02 well, okay 01:37:24 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:39:57 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has 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[n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:02:41 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:43 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:17 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:09:04 seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:09:05 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:10 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:10:21 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 02:11:15 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.97.74] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:11:51 wow, slime M-. for generic functions looks really nice 02:12:30 lists all method by type and does a little yello flash 02:14:40 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:16:10 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:16:38 fusss, moreso, if you inspect a generic function you can remove methods. 02:17:55 i wonder what lisps cl-typesetting/cl-pdf are tested under 02:18:48 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:20:47 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:20:59 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 02:21:15 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:13 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 02:23:48 ausente [n=user5442@187.34.44.13] has joined #lisp 02:24:38 all the more reasons to get it working; cl-typesetting has a FOP contrib (formatted objects formatter; i.e. render html view to PDF, a la (MS|Open) Office :-) 02:25:23 -!- savanni [n=savanni@user-0ccsq46.cable.mindspring.com] has left #lisp 02:25:39 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1F6EF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 02:26:10 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:13 -!- yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@93-120-152-66.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:30:19 fusss: I've used cl-typesetting on sbcl 02:30:37 and it doeth not disappoint: works like a charm with LW Win32; CLISP doesn't grok its character encoding; sbcl says "don't know how to render string to octets" somewhere in Salza2, and Clozure is being weird in some minor respect. 02:31:12 the-ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B30E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:30 slyrus_: my problem is probably between chair and computer. i keep insisting on using win32; i am certain it works on linux as well. 02:34:12 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:08 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B4893.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:37:26 hello #lisp too 02:38:40 dys`` [n=andreas@95.112.122.86] has joined #lisp 02:39:43 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@dslb-094-222-045-226.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:39:46 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:41:37 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 02:43:02 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:45:17 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:45:53 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 02:46:26 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 02:46:30 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:35 -!- timchen1a is now known as nasloc__ 02:48:33 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:00 -!- dys` [n=andreas@95.114.214.254] has quit [No route to host] 02:52:26 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Operation timed out] 02:52:41 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:55:01 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:55:24 -!- R0b0t1 [n=Enigma@unaffiliated/r0b0t1] has left #lisp 02:56:03 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.216.79] has joined #lisp 02:56:30 yay. slime under snow leopard-built sbcl. 02:57:07 sbcl under slime! 02:57:22 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:57:51 i suppose it's not clear which is on top, but the point is that slime now runs on an sbcl built on snow leopard 02:58:09 any additional work on slime side? 02:59:41 stassats`: no, but SBCL/10.6 has issues building (in the C runtime part) 02:59:44 slyrus_: x86 too? 03:00:06 only x86 so far :) 03:00:16 no for x86-64 03:00:20 s/no/now/ 03:01:53 -!- ignas_ [n=ignas@79.132.160.221] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:01:54 oh, and the fun part will be running these with the 64-bit kernel, which I haven't booted into yet... 03:02:49 -!- the-ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B30E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:03:14 -!- Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:03:24 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:04:57 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:05 slyrus_: do you really expect a difference? 03:08:17 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:08:34 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-105-177.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:10:19 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:11:14 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:13:29 pkhuong: it will be interesting to see if the 64-bit kernel handles things like the threads stress tests and better or worse than the 32-bit kernel does 03:13:56 and, yes, I expect there to be bugs that make operation under the 64-bit kernel problematic :) 03:14:01 I would love to be proved wrong though! 03:15:15 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:15:31 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:15:49 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has left #lisp 03:15:54 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:20:52 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:22:13 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:38 yay. x86-64 builds too. 03:22:55 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 03:23:16 tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 03:28:50 girzel [n=user@123.121.193.140] has joined #lisp 03:31:24 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:32:44 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:37:05 Flipping ink should be deprecated, IMO. 03:37:40 And goatee disposed of, as a consequence.. 03:37:48 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:38:24 The gtkairo part handling the flipping ink isn't fun reading.. 03:39:47 KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:08 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit ["bbl"] 03:40:13 -!- krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-120-241.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:41:01 krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-16-38.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 03:41:19 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:42:14 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:43:53 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 03:48:28 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 03:48:40 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:49:09 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:49:23 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 03:50:42 -!- tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit ["leaving"] 03:54:57 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.195.249] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 03:56:03 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:56:15 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:42 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@r253170035.resnet.cornell.edu] has quit [] 04:06:02 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 04:13:02 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:13:22 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:14:35 m7d [n=lriley@pool-71-102-232-43.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:59 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:19:58 -!- krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-16-38.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:22:10 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:25 Good morning everyone! 04:25:07 deepfire: How is Goatee related to flipping ink? 04:26:50 morning beach 04:27:48 bdowning_ [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:24 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:28:46 -!- bdowning_ is now known as bdowning 04:30:08 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:37:26 -!- DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-55-19-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:39:00 DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-55-19-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:23 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 04:40:33 merus [n=merus@c-67-175-45-120.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:41 theoros [n=theoros@unaffiliated/theoros] has joined #lisp 04:40:51 what's an algorithm? 04:41:04 A procedure implementing a function. 04:42:03 merus: The Wikepedia would be a much better source of information for such things than #lisp. 04:42:29 *_3b* started typing an algorithm for looking it up in wikipedia as an example, but got bored partway through' 04:42:49 good point. sorry to have bothered. 04:43:17 <_3b> (don't let us discourage you from asking specific questions about (common) lisp though) 04:44:51 deepfire: Also, I didn't think Goatee was used by default these days. 04:45:11 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:47:15 -!- m7d [n=lriley@pool-71-102-232-43.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:48:01 hrm... sourceforge is much differenter than I remembered it 04:49:14 beach, flip-screen-cursor is used by 04:49:29 Goatee, and uses flipping ink 04:50:57 beach, yes, it's not the default, but it is compiled and loaded nevertheless.. 04:51:00 -!- theoros [n=theoros@unaffiliated/theoros] has left #lisp 04:51:07 deepfire: I see, but wouldn't it be a bit harsh to get rid of an entire editor just because of that? Do you happen to know whether Drei uses flipping ink as well? 04:51:35 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:52:05 beach, I don't have evidence, no 04:52:38 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:52:40 *beach* wonders whether any other parts of McCLIM or any important applications use flipping ink. 04:58:22 Aha, drei uses it as well, the cursor's ink is +flipping-ink+. 04:58:29 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:58:47 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:59:10 That's probably easy enough to get rid of. 05:00:45 *slyrus_* is wishing the canonical sbcl repo was a git repo on common-lisp.net 05:00:54 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 05:02:41 *_3b* just ignores the sf.net repo 05:03:15 _3b: which is fine, unless you want to commit something 05:03:23 Scigraph uses flipping ink pretty heavily. 05:03:41 <_3b> true, i don't commit much :) 05:03:46 I commit to the sbcl repo all the time 05:03:50 git is handy that way 05:04:37 andrewks_ [n=aks@ottawa-hs-64-26-167-214.d-ip.magma.ca] has joined #lisp 05:06:30 I wasn't able to find other users of flipping ink in McCLIM's sources, modulo some slight use in the examples. 05:08:16 -!- ski [n=slj@c-9011e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:08:17 flipping ink does seem like an idea from a previous era... 05:08:37 *_3b* votes to replace it with 'arbitrary transform' ink 05:11:27 ski [n=slj@c-9011e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 05:13:08 <_3b> hmm, now i'm wondering what sort of random effects you could get away with without being horribly annoying.... drop shadows or glows for selection or cursor, etc 05:14:29 _3b, flipping is already arbitrary enough that gtkairo has to pay a hefty price to implement it.. 05:15:18 <_3b> deepfire: yeah, i'm thinking more in terms of starting from scratch and writing directly to opengl or whatever rather than any sort of actual practical idea :) 05:15:56 <_3b> gotta have something to keep up with graphics cards supposedly getting 500x faster in next 6 years :p 05:16:18 I agree that flipping ink is probably no longer such a great idea. 05:17:23 _3b, libclutter is a nice thing to look at: it's an interface library targeted at GL only. 05:17:31 csmerlin [n=smileymy@99-31-211-124.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:54 The entire idea of erasing something being defined as filling it with background ink seems strange, because it means there has to be a background ink, thus making translucency impossible. 05:18:33 _3b, widget-less, though. 05:18:49 <_3b> beach: couldn't background ink have an alpha value? 05:18:54 alpha channels are analogous to 'background ink' 05:19:07 hmm, perhaps. 05:19:47 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:20:20 <_3b> alpha channel isn't really background, unless you only have opaque content 05:20:33 -!- andrewks [n=aks@ottawa-hs-206-191-39-117.d-ip.magma.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:20:34 <_3b> you still need something to clear to, even if you don't see it very much 05:21:55 For CLIM 3, I was thinking of using arbitrary, possibly translucent designs that can be created, deleted or that can move around between display iterations. 05:21:58 <_3b> alternately, you could have 'background' involve just completely removing portions of the content completely, but that would probably be ugly to track 05:22:14 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 05:22:46 <_3b> though i suppose possibly not prohibitive if you don't mind requiring a moderately high end card 05:23:22 <_3b> geometry shaders might be able to make tracking redraw at the character cell level reasonable 05:23:22 How did we get from alpha channels to high end cards? 05:23:42 <_3b> csmerlin: by not using the lapha channel 05:24:14 <_3b> using alpha properly has much more reasonable requirements 05:24:31 _3b: If you are think of requiring DX10 class hardware (GS) you might as well bite the bullet and consider compute shaders. Which isn't a good idea =) 05:25:04 <_3b> yeha, those could probably be used too, not sure they would really help with what i was thinking of though 05:25:20 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 05:25:30 *fusss* just noticed that a write operation locks the entire sqlite3 database. a toy will always be a toy >_> 05:26:09 <_3b> geometry amplification is pretty much exactly what geometry shaders are for after all 05:27:26 i don't think sqlite is a toy 05:27:49 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 05:27:58 *csmerlin* thinks all computers are toys 05:27:58 <_3b> i know, we can use the compute shaders for calculating line breaks :) 05:27:59 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.216.79] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:28:39 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit ["off"] 05:28:46 _3b: Are you sure you wouldn't rather port LISP to compute shaders? :) 05:29:05 Lisp. 05:29:07 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.216.79] has joined #lisp 05:30:21 <_3b> csmerlin: on my todo list already :p 05:30:37 _3b: seriously? 05:30:39 <_3b> (*lisp though, not LISP or lisp) 05:30:56 <_3b> csmerlin: yeah, no idea if i'll ever get to it though :/ 05:31:41 <_3b> and probably cuda or opencl rather than dx-whatever (that is who uses the 'compute shader' term right?) 05:32:15 _3b: star lisp? 05:32:30 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.216.79] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:32:31 <_3b> stassats`: yeah, the easy lisp from connection machines 05:32:47 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 05:32:52 <_3b> CMLisp being the other option, but probably beyond my current compiler writing skills 05:37:52 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.216.79] has joined #lisp 05:38:48 <_3b> *lisp also has the benefit that you!! get!! to!! yell!! a!! lot!! 05:39:38 NO PROBLEM 05:40:02 _3b: have you thought about how you'd get around to implementing a GC on a processor that hates branches ? :) It still has to be faster than running the code in the CPU you know =) 05:40:04 *_3b* suspects that would actually get annoying in real code, but is mildly amusing outside that context :) 05:40:31 <_3b> csmerlin: GC would probably run on CPU 05:40:54 <_3b> stassats`: YEAH!!, *LISP!! IS!! LOUDER!! THOUGH!! 05:40:58 I think that GPUs are on the way out, in any case. 05:41:00 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:41:50 <_3b> csmerlin: that would be more a problem for a CMLisp than *lisp anyway if i remember right 05:42:31 And linear types save the day. :) 05:44:01 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 05:44:03 Zhivago: never used them, are they some approximation of "uniqueness" types? 05:45:21 They are slightly different. 05:45:52 But the important thing is to be able to control the number of references to a given object. 05:46:59 <_3b> yeah, that sounds useful 05:47:23 Very nice for dataflow systems. 05:47:38 <_3b> (though probably just as much beyond my compiler writing skill to use effectively as xappings :) 05:47:58 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:05 <_3b> but that's why i write a compiler, so maybe that will change one day 05:48:54 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.216.79] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:58:25 tcr [n=tcr@138.246.7.146] has joined #lisp 06:00:43 a-s` [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 06:02:15 -!- Nshag [i=user@193.248.206.89] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:02:49 -!- a-s` [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:03:23 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 06:03:31 Ogedei [n=user@e178192240.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:04:16 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:04:53 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 06:08:11 tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 06:11:18 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:11:46 *slyrus_* wonders if I still remember to do a commit... 06:13:17 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:13:35 Modius_ [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #lisp 06:14:02 Uh-oh, the image class appears to be CLX-only.. 06:14:33 deepfire: which one? 06:15:19 beach, the one from which rgb-image derives 06:15:40 In McCLIM? What subdirectory? 06:16:19 Hmm, rgb-image is a standalone class, sorry.. 06:16:52 The "Drawing Two-dimensional 06:17:24 Images" chapter of the McCLIM user manual seems to diverge from code, apparently.. 06:17:42 I'm completely confused. 06:17:53 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 06:19:16 deepfire: There is also image code in Backends/CLX 06:19:19 There's climi::rgb-image, subclassing nothing, and image:rgb-image, subclassing image:image. 06:19:25 hm.. curious, some cl cffi code talking to a 3d engine is faster on sbcl/linux/old onboard chip than on ccl/windows/recent 3d card.. i'll have to check sbcl/windows when i get home tonight 06:20:50 <_3b> aerique: sure the 3d engine isn't adapting to the hardware? 06:21:43 KevinFish [n=chatzill@98.208.14.225] has joined #lisp 06:22:09 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:22:12 aerique, are there many calls/how much consing differs? 06:22:47 zephyrfalcon [n=hans@adsl-074-229-200-227.sip.gnv.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:54 _3b: yes it is, but it happens with the most basic materials so I'm suspecting the ffi. 06:25:33 experience integrating a php admin panel into a lisp web app: the lisp programmer becomes the phper's personal bitch, installing php packages, configuring libraries, and setting permissions. 06:25:47 deepfire: deepfire: there's no difference in my code, but i haven't checked what sbcl and ccl turn it into yet 06:25:54 splittist [n=dmurray@210-46.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:25:56 morning 06:26:01 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 06:26:11 aerique: aerique let down your hair 06:26:13 jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 06:26:19 hey splittist 06:27:41 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:29:19 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:30:07 vu3rdd [n=user@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 06:31:35 -!- zephyrfalcon [n=hans@adsl-074-229-200-227.sip.gnv.bellsouth.net] has quit [] 06:32:03 hello splittist 06:32:35 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:32:35 -!- jdz_ is now known as jdz 06:33:29 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:34:25 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 06:34:37 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 06:34:48 Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 06:35:56 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:36:05 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:24 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:40:39 hello 06:42:46 -!- eihrul_ [n=eihrul@ip72-193-224-224.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:43:42 What is the most efficent way to read in a large text file to a string, and then split it on spaces? 100MB or so? 06:44:48 the internet leads me to believe that read-sequence would be best 06:45:17 http://www.ymeme.com/slurping-a-file-common-lisp-83.html 06:45:17 <_3b> probably depends on what sort of efficiency you want 06:45:29 time efficency 06:45:37 <_3b> yeah, probably reasonable then 06:45:42 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:45:50 <_3b> (assuming you have plenty of ram) 06:45:58 4GB. 06:46:23 is cl-ppcre fast, or should I use split-sequence? on the resulting string? 06:46:43 if you want efficiency, splitting a string is not the way to go 06:47:09 ASau [n=user@host110-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:47:22 Krystof: what should I do instead? I'm really sort of at a loss here. 06:47:25 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:47:53 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.193.140] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:47:56 originally I thought, I should go char-by-char, but then I saw that page and it began to seem like a terrible idea 06:48:09 mogunus: Write a generator which emits word for word 06:48:24 good morning 06:48:36 Hmm... 06:48:36 mogunus: Lisp pretty much has to read character by character anyway in order to get UTF-8 right. 06:48:39 hello mvilleneuve 06:48:53 tcr: I'm sorry, what do you mean by that? 06:49:08 no, you should probably read in the file in some buffered way; but you should not then split the file's contents 06:49:12 Could he use READ-DELIMITED-LIST, and set the delimiter to a space? 06:49:31 mogunus: (loop for word = (grab-next-word *my-file*) ...) 06:49:31 dralston: no (try it and see :-) 06:49:31 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:49:59 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:50:00 Hahaha :P I do believe I shall. (I haven't done much with streams yet, I'm curious as to how this will turn out.) 06:50:40 mogunus: Return a function of no argument, which when called returns the next word, or perhaps rather an offset and end into some internal buffer which you feed data to via read-sequence 06:51:20 but it depends on what you want to achieve 06:51:38 I have something like 60 - 300 100MBish text files 06:52:01 I want to read them all into an internal feature-based representation as quickly as possible 06:52:01 what do they contain? what kind of analysis do you want to perform on them? 06:52:05 natural language 06:52:38 mogunus: Do you need to be able to look at the whole thing, or can you afford to look at it in more discrete, connected chunks? 06:52:54 Would it be ok to add a png reader calling out to libpng (cl-png) to mcclim? 06:53:12 sykopomp: I would like whole-corpus statistics occasionally 06:53:27 sometimes I would want to iterate through document-by-document, multiple times 06:53:37 (many thousands of times) 06:53:48 beach pasted "For mogunus" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86288 06:53:56 I noticed that the three current readers (tiff, jpeg and gif) are pure CL. 06:53:59 If I could compress the whole thing into an efficent memory representation for that, it would be really good 06:55:18 beach: thank you, that looks really good 06:55:40 mogunus: It might not be fast enough for your purpose. I am using very small files. 06:55:52 *sykopomp* boggles at the thought of iterating over a list with 100MB+ of character data. 06:56:05 deepfire: A CL version would be preferable. I think there must be code for that somewhere. 06:56:07 mogunus: how about mem mapping the file and referring to each string as its address. On the (comparatively) rare occasions you need to 'read' the string, just read chars until you hit the separating space. 06:56:13 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 06:56:36 I mean, the thing is... there aren't that many "words" in english 06:56:42 (not a good spelling day) 06:56:48 <_3b> didn't someone release a CL png reader recently? 06:57:01 _3b: I seem to remember that as well. 06:57:03 so my goal is to build a dictionary of those words based on the corpus and store vectors of symbols or something which refer to the word data 06:57:18 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 06:57:30 I'd like the initial read-in to be fast though, because I'm going to have to read in many different corpera 06:57:39 <_3b> i think closure has one if not (pretty sure that is what i use currently, though there was another option though) 06:57:54 <_3b> *i thought there was 06:58:02 hi people 06:58:10 _3b: closure? 06:58:11 hello csmerlin 06:58:23 minion: tell sykopomp about closure 06:58:24 sykopomp: look at closure: Closure is a free web browser written completely in Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/closure 06:58:30 ah, that one 06:58:45 easy to get confused these days. 07:00:43 beach, I tried to find a pure CL reader, but only found a pure writer -- zpng. 07:01:01 deepfire: hmm 07:01:42 -!- tcr [n=tcr@138.246.7.146] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:02:09 cl-png was pure, it appears, but then fell back to calling C, citing "CL-PNG is much faster than before, and better able to handle corner cases". 07:02:31 deepfire: imago has pure CL code for reading/writing PNGs 07:02:44 deepfire: src/imagelib in Closure has one too. 07:02:52 (it's quite slow though) 07:03:07 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:03:39 Aha.. I'll see it after I get some sleep, thanks! 07:04:49 <_3b> http://github.com/Ramarren/png-read/ might be what i was thinking of 07:05:04 p0a [n=user@athedsl-373693.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 07:05:17 Hello when I used emacs with SLIME, tab automatically provided me with a list of symbols that match 07:05:20 the completion 07:05:21 Oh, ramarren strikes again! 07:05:32 when I updated SLIME to the newest version, I think this feature was 'lost' 07:05:35 Here's what I get now: 07:05:42 Symbol's function definition is void: dbgmsg 07:05:48 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:05:50 <_3b> p0a: try updating again 07:05:56 Updating what? 07:05:59 <_3b> slime 07:06:15 You mean there's a new version or do you imply I've done something wrong in the installation? 07:06:27 htk_ [n=htk___@miniserver.co.cc] has joined #lisp 07:07:16 <_3b> p0a: i mean i saw that mentioned on the slime list, and it sounded like it had been fixed since then, so see if you can get a newer version 07:07:58 ramarren is suspiciously good at sneaking up and coding awesome stuff. 07:08:47 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:09:02 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:10:33 cffi-clutter is my favorite among his codes.. 07:10:55 _3b: I had 28 and it was fixed in 30! ;-) thanks lots 07:10:59 sykopomp: I wish he was a bit more vocal about it. I only found out about some of his libs after having coded a half baked implementation myself (since Googling didn't show any CL libs in existence). 07:11:31 aerique: not like it's easy to actually release lisp code. 07:11:48 and it's hard to talk about your code without sounding like you're bragging... 07:11:56 release... lisp code? 07:12:05 what an interesting concept 07:12:07 How can I read a single letter from *standard-output*? 07:12:07 joshe: iknorite? 07:12:08 Adlai``` [n=adlai@93-173-181-173.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 07:12:41 p0a: you can't read -from- *std-out* afaik... 07:12:52 sykopomp: just a cliki entry would have helped a lot 07:12:55 Duh, -input* 07:13:07 sykopomp: releases are hard, let's go shopping! 07:13:21 clhs read-char 07:13:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_cha.htm 07:13:27 Ah. I was trying read-byte 07:14:23 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit ["bbl"] 07:16:34 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 07:17:08 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 07:18:16 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:19:19 *_3b* just watched the github new cl projects page to find new cl code :) 07:19:50 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 07:24:40 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 07:24:42 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 07:28:26 HG` [n=HG@xdslfb169.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:30:51 -!- Adlai`` [n=adlai@93-173-173-95.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:32:15 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@210-46.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["Reboot"] 07:34:51 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:36:08 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 07:36:28 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 07:36:53 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@miniserver.co.cc] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:40:47 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 07:41:15 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest6241 07:41:34 prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:56 -!- Adlai``` is now known as Adlai 07:46:05 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:49:41 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 07:50:00 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-373693.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 07:50:09 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:53:33 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 07:54:50 Joreji [n=thomas@43-225.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:58:08 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:02:41 segv [n=mb@p4FC1F6EF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:06 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 08:07:07 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:07:31 -!- ASau [n=user@host110-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:07:32 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:07:46 ASau [n=user@host110-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 08:09:26 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:11:23 is WITH-TIMEOUT considered harmful due to being race-condition-prone? 08:11:43 i.e. it doesn't run unwind-protection blocks 08:12:40 -!- seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:14:16 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@43-225.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:14:23 weirdo, It does run unwind-protection blocks. 08:14:26 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 08:14:58 The problem is that the SETF might not occur, so the unwind won't working given that the var will still be nil. 08:15:51 dwh The SETF I'm referring to being the one given in the example. 08:16:26 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:17:33 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:17:53 manuel [n=manuel@krlh-4d035ce9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:58 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:20:37 rdd [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:21:29 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 08:21:57 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:23:19 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1F40B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:01 -!- dys`` is now known as dys 08:29:12 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-30-138.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 08:29:36 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:29:37 Soulman__ [n=kae@80.203.160.34] has joined #lisp 08:33:59 pve_ [n=user@dsl-hkibrasgw3-ff2dc000-174.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 08:34:17 logBot1559 [n=logBot@59.92.172.138] has joined #lisp 08:34:52 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1F6EF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:34:52 -!- segv_ is now known as segv 08:35:40 i wonder if it's safe to timeout on READ-SEQUENCE 08:35:45 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:38:43 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has left #lisp 08:44:24 yoonkn [n=yoonkn@112.169.40.70] has joined #lisp 08:46:09 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-68-108.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:47:59 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-114.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:48:33 weirdo: huh? why would you want to do that? 08:48:33 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:48:42 test if the read is gonna block before you issue it 08:48:51 arbscht [n=arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 08:49:05 fusss, i wanted to go for portability 08:49:18 edi didn't want to include sbcl-only code in drakma 08:49:53 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-114.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 08:51:35 sb-drakma-compat ftw! 08:51:54 elam [n=elam@dslb-092-076-254-015.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:52:25 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:52:44 -!- merus [n=merus@c-67-175-45-120.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:54:19 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:54:28 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 08:56:48 aliceinwire_ [n=aliceinw@host59-46-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:58:04 -!- elam [n=elam@dslb-092-076-254-015.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 09:01:18 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:01:59 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:03:03 with GC it might not matter though .. but for other resources (sockets, file-descriptors etc.) it does 09:03:40 Joreji [n=thomas@43-225.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:03:48 -!- aliceinwire_ [n=aliceinw@host59-46-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:04:01 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:04:10 weirdo: ITA had to implement extensions in their favorite implementation to have I/O with timeout. 09:04:25 weirdo: you can do something portably with READ-CHAR and LISTEN. 09:04:37 i tried doing it with LISTEN and it was abysmally slow 09:04:43 Of course. 09:04:44 there's an old patch on the drakma mailing list 09:05:12 ignas_ [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:05:39 well, if a timeout occurs, the stream is hosed 09:05:58 so even if it barfs an error, nothing bad happens, as long as the stream can be closed 09:06:11 girzel [n=user@123.121.194.7] has joined #lisp 09:08:13 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.143.17] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:09:17 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:10:28 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.64] has joined #lisp 09:12:03 threads are a bad idea for i/o anyway .. non-blocking is the way to go 09:13:58 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 09:13:58 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:14:17 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:14:27 Lycurgus [n=Ren@pool-71-186-135-250.bflony.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:15:42 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 09:17:25 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 09:18:10 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 09:18:26 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@pool-71-186-135-250.bflony.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:19:19 Hi! I am doing a small parser of arithmetic equations to lisp s-expressions. to make it easier I convert all - to +-. It works with numbers, but of course it does not work with custom classes, such as variables. It seems that it is impossible to override basic symbols such as + or -. so what would be the best way to make negation function for custom class? 09:19:22 arbscht_ [n=arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 09:21:34 lnostdal, maybe for server applications, but it would be bothersome for libraries such as drakma to be non-blocking 09:21:41 unless they used call/cc 09:22:06 lispm [n=joswig@e177127186.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:22:11 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-191-200.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:22:15 not really 09:23:06 freiksenet: (shadow '-) (defun - (...) ...); or what do you mean? 09:23:09 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@43-225.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["leaving"] 09:23:31 gio1234 [n=jhjhxh@81.95.167.109] has joined #lisp 09:23:39 freiksenet: Why would you want to do (- (make-instance 'color) (make-instance 'animal)) ? 09:23:56 does somebody is from portugal? 09:24:25 gio1234: Why do you care? 09:24:55 beach: I need some translation :) 09:25:07 Joreji [n=thomas@43-225.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:25:33 aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host59-46-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:26:11 matimago thanks! 09:26:43 so shadow allows to redefine built-ins, but it won't allow to just make them work with new classes? 09:26:55 without removing original definition 09:27:28 ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 09:27:33 I have a class to represent mathematical variables such as ax^b 09:27:39 freiksenet: what does that mean to substract a stone from a theorem? 09:27:44 gio1234: Well, this is not the right forum for translations, but you can get the logs, and grep for .pt in them, and you will see that there are a dozen people or so. 09:28:15 freiksenet: shadow is related to the package system 09:28:16 freiksenet: do you know what a sexp is? A symbolic expression? 09:28:40 beach: can i automaticali search for .pt people here? 09:28:44 it's worth learning about packages even if matimago convinces you not to shadow symbols in this case 09:28:50 do you mean s-expression? yes 09:28:52 freiksenet: the use of a symbol in a sexp is independant from the fact that that symbol might or might not be bound to a function. 09:28:58 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-114.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:29:13 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:29:31 '(+ 1 #) doesn't care that there is a function bound to +. 09:29:48 is there a way to find all of the applicable methods for an object? 09:30:06 freiksenet: If you only want to generate Lisp expressions, you can keep the symbols in the CL package. You don't need any negation function. 09:30:21 I want to solve the expression after this 09:30:40 freiksenet: would that involve _computing_ (- 1 #) ? 09:30:51 freiksenet: What do you mean by "solve"? 09:30:56 I already implemented it, I just need to parse "normal" mathematic functions into s-expr. 09:31:19 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:31:23 -!- arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:31:25 freiksenet: so you do not need to redefine the operations such as -. Just build your s-exp. 09:31:56 freiksenet: http://www.flownet.com/ron/packages.pdf is the guide that finally helped me understand packages, if you want to learn about them. 09:32:13 no, I think you misunderstood me matimago 09:32:21 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:32:24 freiksenet: If the result of your parse is an expression that indeed has a value if evaluated in the top-level Lisp environment, then all you need to do is to call EVAL on it. 09:33:56 freiksenet: You mention `variable' as a custom class, are there any other examples? If not, use a CL symbol that has a value instead of a custom class, and you can just call EVAL. 09:34:11 drafael, "Dispatch in CLOS is also different from most OO languages: # Given a list of arguments, a list of applicable methods is determined." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp_Object_System#Features ) .. the question isn't very clear given the context .. take into account the ability to define custom method combinations too .. etc. *shrug* 09:34:28 Imagine something in a form ax^b. I have a class to represent this kind of stuff. When I parse the string given by a user, say 10 - 2x I convert -2x to + (- 2x). Currently I just have generic "neg" that works with both numbers and my classes, but I wondered if I can redefine - instead of using neg 09:34:44 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 09:35:07 freiksenet: to build the sexp? 09:35:24 yes, then I eval them and they are simplified and solved. 09:35:27 I don't see the relationship between a sexp and methods on your classes. 09:35:33 freiksenet: Why do you have custom classes? Why not convert -2x into (- (* 2 x)) and you can just EVAL it. 09:35:37 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 09:35:38 drafael, the list of applicable methods are determined by the generic function (not "the object") and the (programmable) dispatch or method combination system 09:35:58 and x here would be a symbol? 09:36:08 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177127186.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:36:10 And applying an operator such as + or - doesn't simplify it, it computes the result. TO simplify, I would call a specific function (simplify '(- 2x)) 09:36:13 lispm [n=joswig@e177127186.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:36:16 freiksenet: yes, and you would have to give it a value as a global variable. 09:36:21 lnostdal: yeah, I see. thanks 09:36:41 drafael: MOP may be of help. #+clisp CLOS::LIST-DIRECT-METHODS 09:37:28 but what kind of value should I give to it? it is "variable", the goal is to find it's value 09:37:29 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:48 now lisp just said "unbound variable" 09:38:06 freiksenet: Then we are not talking about evaluation, and you didn't answer my question concerning what you meant by "solve". 09:38:40 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:56 matimago: ah, thanks, I'll have a look through the sbcl manual 09:39:07 ok, sorry about that. Imagine I have a expression (y+1)(y+2) =0. I need to bring it to polynome form y^2 + 3.0y + 2 09:39:32 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-191-200.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:39:44 simplify is better that solve for this %) sorry for confusing you 09:39:49 than* 09:39:53 freiksenet: It looks like you are writing an expression simplifier, in which case you would not do that with a custom negation function, but instead with a dispatch on the operator (a symbol) and the arguments. 09:40:13 freiksenet: I am sure there is a simplifier in PAIP. 09:40:21 minion: tell freiksenet about PAIP 09:40:22 freiksenet: look at PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 09:40:26 I am writing simplifier just for fun and to learn lisp 09:40:37 freiksenet: But simplification is a hard topic, and the result is not unique. 09:40:37 so I don't want to look there yet 09:41:16 freiksenet: PAIP is a good resource for learning CL, regardless of the AI stuff 09:41:23 freiksenet: if you want to do symbolic computation, using +, -, *, /, then you will have to shadow them and implement them for all your symbolic elements. 09:41:37 freiksenet: Write a function SIMPLIFY that takes an expression and then uses a hash table to find a simplifier function associated with the operator and apply that function to the arguments. 09:41:38 arbscht [n=arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 09:41:48 arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 09:42:04 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:42:04 In the proper package, (* (+ # 1) (+ # 2)) --> (+ (expt # 2) (* 3 #) 2) 09:42:35 But this is still not SIMPLIFY. You won't simplify by implementing operations. Simplification need global transformations. 09:42:35 is var a custom class here? 09:42:40 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Client Quit] 09:42:40 freiksenet: yes. 09:42:42 it would. 09:42:52 freiksenet: if you're interested in the package stuff,I recommend you look at that guide I linked. 09:42:56 It would represent your mathemtical variables. 09:43:19 okay, as I said I DID simplification, maybe a bit clumsy one but working. My main concern is to build a parser now 09:43:19 -!- aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@host59-46-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 09:43:30 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:43:36 aliceinwire [n=aliceinw@79.45.46.59] has joined #lisp 09:43:58 it works like this ( 09:44:08 * (plus 10 (mult x 50 60) 50 60) --> (120 (#)) 09:44:22 where x is (# it seems to work with any combinations of plus and mult. 09:45:21 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.33.8] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:46:01 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Client Quit] 09:46:03 Lycurgus [n=Ren@pool-71-186-135-250.bflony.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:04 freiksenet: google constant propagation, constant folding 09:46:09 But it might still be more convenient to avoid using the standard symbols, otherwise you will have to use qualified symbols at one time or another. Eg. when you implement PLUS or your OPS:+, you will have to test for literal numbers and use CL:+ so either you write PLUS or OPS:+ here or CL:+ there. 09:46:39 tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:47:58 -!- arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:48:01 so my way of making plus and mult is okay? 09:50:11 and back to my question - is there any good way to parse normal expressions to s-expressions? I am currently doing a quite ugly algorithm - I take the string and go symbol by symbol to find most "low-level" operations first and put them in front and then recurse until I get all operations and then I use regular expressions to match symbol-variables 09:50:32 at least that's how I planned it to work 09:56:12 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:59:19 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B30E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:49 gio123 [n=jhjhxh@81.95.167.109] has joined #lisp 10:03:14 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@pool-71-186-135-250.bflony.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:03:28 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-114.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:05:08 freiksenet: Yes, I think that for now, you should stick with plys and mult. 10:05:42 freiksenet: you could use a parser generator. There are several. Zeby, cl-lalr, etc. 10:06:10 freiksenet: but normally, arithemetic expressions are simple enough that you can parse them with a recursive descend parser. 10:06:54 See for example: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/rdp/ 10:07:33 rdp is a recursive descend parser generator. 10:08:04 Here is another example, in a Q&D basic, you will find a recursive decend parser for arithmetic operations written by hand: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/basic/ 10:08:33 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 10:09:06 freiksenet: notice how the arithmetic expressions are parsed by functions generated by the make-parse-level macro. 10:09:08 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 10:10:17 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:12:51 thanks, I'll look into them 10:14:59 Just think of it as deciding which direction to fold the tree in. 10:15:09 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:17:30 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:18:22 -!- gio1234 [n=jhjhxh@81.95.167.109] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:21:24 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:26:32 iwaki [n=hide@PPPa272.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:27:45 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:28:24 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229173152.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:28:56 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 10:29:56 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-114.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:31:33 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 10:33:05 Lycurgus [n=Ren@pool-71-186-135-250.bflony.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:33:35 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-191-200.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:35:50 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:36:15 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:37:41 merus [n=merus@pal-175-227.itap.purdue.edu] has joined #lisp 10:40:25 pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 10:45:04 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177127186.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:45:16 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 10:47:06 arbscht [n=arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 10:48:00 yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@93.120.211.109] has joined #lisp 10:49:12 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-12.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:51:33 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:51:43 lispm [n=joswig@e177158075.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:52:29 Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483DD58.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:21 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:13 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.5.213] has joined #lisp 11:00:05 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:00:28 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483DFD8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:00:50 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:01:43 drafael pasted "Error exiting sdl (lispbuilder-sdl)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86291 11:02:53 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["brb"] 11:03:26 any good xml-rpc examples that *don't* use s-xml-rpc? 11:03:28 I've successfully used it in the past, that's updated today. Is it just me? 11:03:52 i am sure cxml has something in it to do xml-rpc 11:03:56 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 11:04:02 drafael: did you update sbcl as well? 11:04:40 stassats`: since I last used lispbuilder-sdl, most likely 11:05:15 also, did you delete all fasls? 11:05:17 I'm on version 1.0.30 at the moment for sbcl 11:05:36 I cloned it today (newish laptop) so there shouldn't have been any left 11:05:46 I'll try remove all anyway 11:08:39 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B30E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:09:00 same problem unfortunately 11:09:44 you could also try to download the release tarball 11:10:05 good idea 11:10:36 *stassats`* forgot what was author's name in here 11:10:48 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 11:11:08 blitz_ [n=blitz@dslb-094-222-085-028.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:48 thunk [n=user@74-130-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 11:13:15 fusss: cxml-rpc, incredibly enough. 11:13:27 pkhuong: i just cloned it 11:13:36 pkhuong: to be honest, i have no clue what i am doing 11:13:55 i have a bunch of web apps developed by a bunch of people that need to talk in 2 weeks time 11:15:11 -!- pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:16:31 sweet, cxml-rpc is a hunchentoot app 11:16:47 *fusss* doesn't like packages that "bundle" their own web server deep down inside 11:16:57 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:17:25 gio1234 [n=jhjhxh@81.95.167.109] has joined #lisp 11:18:03 -!- tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:19:10 stassats`: same problem with the release unfortunately 11:19:17 I imagine I'm missing some library or something 11:19:28 Hi room. Is it possible, or is there some idiomatic way, to implement a sort of reader-macrolet -- a reader macro that's only available within its block's scope -- after which the dispatch character(s) return to their previous bindings? 11:20:02 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@43-225.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:20:11 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:21:18 thunk: yeah, you can always modify the reader and restore it with in a compile-time unwind-protect 11:22:04 AAhhh, nice. I'll look into that. Would you say that's best or most idiomatic way to do it? 11:22:05 but reading is going before compile-time 11:23:11 make that read time then :-P 11:23:21 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:23:27 I'd like to temporarily redefine '[' from the single argument lambda it's currently defined for to some functionality for parsing a little DSL I'm working onf 11:23:48 Thanks fusss. 11:23:56 minion: editor-hints 11:23:57 editor-hints: The estimable Tobias C. http://www.cliki.net/editor-hints 11:24:02 thunk: see how CLSQL implements the '[ syntax for SQL. it's valid with in a file or with in an explicit block 11:24:24 Excellent. That's perfect. 11:24:26 -!- yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@93.120.211.109] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:24:42 editor-hints contains named-readtables 11:24:44 ENABLE-SQL-READER-SYNTAX 11:25:22 thunk: even more specifically: locally-enable-sql-reader-syntax, but stassats` might be on to something 11:26:02 minion: editor-hints 11:26:02 editor-hints: The estimable Tobias C Rittweiler is working to develop a CL library called editor hints that aims at giving a portable facility for a Lisp implementation to tell the development environment things about its state. http://www.cliki.net/editor-hints 11:27:22 Thanks stassats` - I'll look into that, too. 11:27:28 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:28:36 yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@93-120-230-67.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 11:28:59 -!- gio123 [n=jhjhxh@81.95.167.109] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:29:04 pdenno [n=pdenno@129.6.72.17] has joined #lisp 11:31:51 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:32:01 does anyone know how to prevent audio from opening/closing using lispbuilder-sdl and with-init? 11:33:46 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:34:04 tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:34:10 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 11:35:23 the documentation states "By default WITH-INIT will only initialise the SDL-INIT-VIDEO SDL subsystem. Additional SDL subsystems can be initialized by calling INITIALIZE-ON-STARTUP. " but it's still trying to close the audio subsystem and dying horribly when using default arguments 11:35:39 the canonical xml-rpc example URL is down. time.xmlrpc.com :-/ 11:36:10 there is paste.lisp.org xml-rpc interface 11:36:27 fusss: hah, thank goodness that you can easily create your own xml-rpc servers with cxml-rpc (: 11:36:59 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@dslb-094-222-085-028.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:37:17 robewald [n=robert@105.81-167-153.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 11:37:44 !clhs flet 11:38:01 clhs flet 11:38:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm 11:38:12 thanks 11:39:28 hi, when a file is loaded is it possible to use its fully qualified pathname inside? I want to create a sqlite db with clsql in the same directory. 11:39:56 laynor_ [n=laynor@93.107.92.229] has joined #lisp 11:40:01 tczy_ [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:40:05 antifuchs: much love mate! cxml-rpc rocks! 11:40:08 clhs *load-truename* 11:40:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_ld_pns.htm 11:40:30 stassats`: (call "http://common-lisp.net:8185/RPC2" "listchannels" nil) ;-) 11:40:31 well, if I kill the function 'close-audio' everything is great :D 11:41:16 -!- csmerlin [n=smileymy@99-31-211-124.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:42:28 how do I stop drawing in artist-mode so I can select a different operation? 11:42:32 er 11:42:35 wrong window sorry 11:42:40 stassats`: thanks 11:43:42 (load-time-value (or #.*compile-file-truename* *load-truename*)) 11:45:06 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:45:06 -!- est [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:45:27 -!- gio1234 [n=jhjhxh@81.95.167.109] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:45:27 est [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 11:46:51 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-199.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:47:00 fusss: (-: 11:49:00 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:51:08 -!- laynor [n=laynor@93.107.199.222] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:55:22 stassats`: that was excactly what I was looking for. What does #. mean? 11:57:42 robewald: eval at read time 11:58:28 stupid question, but how can I concatenate character and string together? 11:58:33 -!- tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:58:39 you guys are tremendously helpful. That just needs to be said. 11:58:58 clhs concatenate 11:58:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_concat.htm 11:59:07 freiksenet: Is the character going at the beginning or at the end of the string? 11:59:32 freiksenet: (concatenate 'string "some-string" (string #\$)) 11:59:35 (concatenate 'string #\a "stas") gives an error that character is not the string 11:59:43 oops, not a sequence 11:59:46 at the beginning 11:59:52 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-1-48.w90-59.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:00:25 nite all 12:00:26 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.5.213] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.2/20090729225027]"] 12:00:27 That's too bad. If you can pretend that the array goes from right to left, then you can use vector-push-extend on an adjustable character vector. 12:01:23 so there is no way to convert a character to string? 12:01:31 cause then I can conc them 12:01:31 freiksenet: did you read my message? 12:01:41 oops, missed it 12:01:42 freiksenet: stassats` gave you the solution. 12:01:43 thanks stas 12:02:09 you're welcome! 12:02:35 freiksenet: Doing it that way can be quite costly if you do it often. 12:03:04 freiksenet: Every time, you create a new string and copy all the characters from the old one over to the new one. 12:03:28 freiksenet: Perhaps you can use vector-push-extend and then just reverse it once when you are done? 12:03:54 or cons a list and convert it to string, perhaps? 12:04:34 Phaze: That's probably worse. 12:05:08 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:05:13 why do you think so? (you're probably right, just curious) 12:05:41 Phaze: You would need to allocate memory for each new character, and then the GC would have to trace each cell. 12:06:13 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:06:53 Phaze: plus, if the string is somewhat long, you waste at 8-15 bytes for each character stored (on a modern machine). 12:07:18 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 12:07:28 beach: ahh, right. reversing a vector is constant memory (duh!). thanks (: 12:07:48 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:08:06 Phaze: Even if it weren't you might be able to get away with doing it only once. 12:08:26 and how extensible vectors are represented? 12:08:46 stassats`: I would assume by leaving some additional space at the end. 12:09:25 stassats`: Occasionally, they would have to be reallocated and copied, but if done right, it remains constant time on the average for each new element added. 12:10:39 though, perhaps everywhere, extensible vectors aren't simple 12:11:01 simple? 12:11:12 clhs simple-array 12:11:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_smp_ar.htm 12:11:13 as in 12:11:32 I am pretty sure that by definition they aren't. 12:11:44 well, that's implementation dependent 12:11:57 really? 12:12:02 *beach* reads... 12:12:06 see Notes 12:12:55 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:13:06 I see, yes. 12:13:10 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:13 If simple arrays are wanted at the end, one can use a single vector for accumulating characters and copy them over to a sting at the end of accumulating characters. 12:14:35 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:15:15 so, everything depends on the actual problem 12:17:16 Yes, but we haven't been given any additional information, so who knows what's the best solution. 12:17:19 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 12:19:24 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-252.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:19:43 okay, more questions :) I have a list of characters I want to combine them as string, is there any built in method to do this? 12:19:50 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-23.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:20:33 (coerce list-of-characters 'string) 12:20:40 thanks a lot ) 12:21:11 svarg [n=mode@unaffiliated/romani] has joined #lisp 12:21:59 -!- svarg [n=mode@unaffiliated/romani] has left #lisp 12:26:57 blitz_ [n=blitz@141.76.6.131] has joined #lisp 12:27:09 -!- merus [n=merus@pal-175-227.itap.purdue.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:30:51 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 12:33:49 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 12:35:01 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 12:37:13 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:38:06 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:39:25 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:42:39 -!- tczy_ [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:44:31 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@141.76.6.131] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:46:14 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1571.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:48:40 -!- mgm [n=mgm@p84-72.acedsl.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:49:56 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:50:09 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:50:23 -!- chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:52:00 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:52:22 is there some MOP'ish "version" of initialize-instance .. as slot-value-using-class is for slot-value ..? .. haven't thought about this; perhaps it is unreasonable 12:53:51 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:55:27 ok, I made this parses with rdp that you guys advised. That's awesome and it looks cool. thanks a lot :) 12:55:32 this parser* 12:56:26 -!- manuel [n=manuel@krlh-4d035ce9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [] 12:59:40 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 13:00:28 Hmm, I didn't realize how sarcastic and negative Eran Gatt's "idiot's guide to packages" is. 13:01:35 alas, it is so 13:01:51 *Krystof* stares at fd-stream.lisp, wonders how it has got to such a point 13:02:22 *Xach* hesitates to reread the special variables paper again 13:03:05 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-46-28.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:18 Xach: Pitman's paper? 13:03:46 mvilleneuve: gat's 13:03:52 OK 13:04:01 oops, Erann Gat, not Eran Gatt. 13:04:34 whatever his name now is 13:05:37 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:05:48 L. Ron Garrett 13:06:03 haha, that one is very good ! 13:06:11 lol 13:06:32 I have to use that some time on c.l.l 13:06:48 Cassio [n=Cassio@host251-159-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:07:17 good afternoom 13:07:22 ciao a tutti ;-) 13:07:34 Guten Tag 13:08:54 skyy [n=skyy@host251-159-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:09:56 i'm searching def-class source 13:10:03 can you help me? 13:11:51 what's def-class? 13:13:25 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:47 (to answer my MOP question above; in this case defining methods for make-instance seems to work out fine) 13:14:51 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:15:11 exact 13:15:48 hm, perhaps he means defclass .. http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Finding-definitions.html so just hit Alt-. while your cursor is over some 'defclass' source code 13:17:28 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:31 saikat_ [n=saikat@rrdhcp-220-133.redrover.cornell.edu] has joined #lisp 13:20:51 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 13:24:11 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:54 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B30E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:29 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:28:34 drafael annotated #86291 "Compiler notes" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86291#1 13:28:52 about lispbuilder-sdl ^ 13:30:42 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 13:31:29 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 13:32:20 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #lisp 13:32:26 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-76.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 13:34:14 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:35:49 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 13:36:41 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13:57:49 -!- dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:01:06 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:37 -!- chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:02:01 vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:26 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:44 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 14:04:13 -!- pdenno [n=pdenno@129.6.72.17] has left #lisp 14:05:58 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 14:06:13 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:46 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@216-176-41.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:08:27 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@90.149.117.111] has joined #lisp 14:08:52 Cassio3 [n=Cassio@host251-159-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:09:42 -!- Cassio [n=Cassio@host251-159-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:10:02 -!- ignas_ [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:10:27 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 14:11:32 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 14:12:53 ignas_ [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 14:14:35 -!- Cassio2 [n=Cassio@87.0.159.251] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:17:25 glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #lisp 14:18:55 milanj [n=milan@212.200.194.27] has joined #lisp 14:20:38 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:21:04 c|mell [n=cmell@p14220-ipngn1701marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:21:43 ugh, code for callouts to sin/cos is awful 14:24:10 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 14:25:38 Cassio [n=Cassio@host251-159-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:25:55 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-1-48.w90-59.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 14:26:09 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has joined #lisp 14:26:13 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-1-48.w90-59.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:27:42 Cassio: Do you mean that you want the source code for defclass in some CL implementation, such as SBCL? Then you should probably download the SBCL source tree and look for the definition there. 14:28:26 though there are some tools which have a 'def-class' macro 14:28:46 how do I have default arguments when using defmethod? 14:28:58 -!- Guest6241 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 14:29:10 drafael: same as with defun. you can't specialize on them, though. 14:29:53 -!- Cassio3 [n=Cassio@host251-159-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:30:02 Xach: could you give me an example please? I've been struggling for a bit 14:30:50 (defmethod foo (bar &optional (quux 42)) (+ bar quux)) 14:31:06 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:07 ECLM 2009 comes nearer and nearer 14:31:25 ohhh 14:31:31 thanks! 14:31:38 (forgot the &optional) 14:31:51 also, &key 14:32:14 yep, moment of blindness 14:32:57 sohail1 [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:33:06 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 14:33:13 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Success] 14:33:20 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 14:35:59 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 14:37:15 -!- sohail1 [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:37:42 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 14:39:13 Remember optional and key argumants slow generiic matching so don't use them in functions you intend to use in tight loops. 14:39:51 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 14:43:37 -!- andrewks_ [n=aks@ottawa-hs-64-26-167-214.d-ip.magma.ca] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:44:07 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:45:14 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@pool-71-186-135-250.bflony.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:45:39 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-12.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:59 morning 14:48:40 -!- Cassio [n=Cassio@host251-159-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 14:48:51 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:50:28 -!- ASau [n=user@host110-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 14:51:26 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:51:53 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 14:52:19 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 14:54:04 -!- vu3rdd [n=user@164.164.250.10] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:55:05 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 14:55:31 est: your meaning of "generic matching" must be somewhat non-orthodox, what with the fact that optional and keyword args don't influence method dispatch at all 14:56:22 *cmm* does /whois, becomes enlightened, mutters "never mind" 14:56:29 haha 14:56:34 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:57:13 cmm is not stupid 14:57:44 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:19 Depends if you can cache the method or not 14:58:43 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B30E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:58:51 Yeah someone stole my nick's 14:59:32 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:19 so... I'm confused about when warnings are and are not actually errors... In this case when compiling mcclim 15:00:44 Though it's true I've mostly been using Isabelle / Haskell lately so I might be a bit rusty at times 15:01:15 I get a warning compiling xrender-fonts that becomes an error, but there are earlier instances of "Caught WARNING..." that don't seem to get promoted to errors. 15:01:47 compile-file returns failure T on some warnings 15:01:58 disumu [n=disumu@p54BCB93C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:00 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:02:06 failure-p 15:02:18 ah, presumably "cannot use optimized accessor in safe code" is one of those. 15:02:34 shouldn't be 15:02:38 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-114.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Success] 15:02:50 how does one ensure that an optimized accessor can be used in safe code? 15:03:15 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:03:22 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 15:03:39 i'm getting that too, slyrus_ .. on code at (safety 3) at least .. at 1 i do not get it .. it might be something mis-interpreted on the slime end, but i'm not sure 15:03:52 -!- ignas_ [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:04:03 By making sure it knows what class will be invoked? 15:04:04 (not on mcclim in particular, but on other code) 15:04:54 erik____ [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:04 -!- erik____ is now known as ``Erik_ 15:05:25 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:05:59 sometimes I wish one needed a (declare (optimize (annoying-warnings 3))) in order to get all of the "unable to optimize due type uncertainty" warnings... 15:06:34 Anyhow finished the messy iso-8601 time format parser. 15:06:53 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:15 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 15:07:43 It should now reflect the entire standard 15:09:19 -!- zeroish` [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 15:10:24 *est* is looking into the book "Calenders and dates" 15:10:30 est: I'm curious as to what the deficiencies in local-time's parser were 15:10:45 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:10:47 *lnostdal* is trying to work out an isolated test case for the warning/error thingy .. not as easy or obvious as i thought it would be .. hm :} 15:11:17 Brucio-8 [n=Brucio-8@adsl-76-195-2-12.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:28 KingNato [n=patno@84-217-13-252.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:52 it's alive! 15:12:10 dlowe: None. But they don't help you read dates from a data file which uses the iso-8601 format. 15:12:34 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:12:50 well none that come to mind 15:13:14 -!- Brucio-8 [n=Brucio-8@adsl-76-195-2-12.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:13:55 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@141.76.6.131] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:14:03 est: I'm not sure what you mean. parse-timestring does just that 15:14:59 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:15:09 est: if you don't want a timestamp returned, there's local-time:split-timestring 15:15:21 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [] 15:16:27 dlove: It works only for a subset of the iso-8601 standard 15:17:36 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:18:07 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:18:26 Take a look at: http://paste.lisp.org/+1UL6 15:18:36 est: that would be a deficiency, no? 15:18:52 but true, durations are not supported 15:19:18 or intervalls 15:19:49 yaroslav_h_ [n=yaroslav@93-120-194-82.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 15:20:08 durations only make sence in the context of a intervall 15:21:24 -!- ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 15:21:48 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 15:21:48 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:22:48 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177158075.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 15:23:15 -!- dwave is now known as asksol 15:24:10 tagac [n=user@119.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:25:17 -!- prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:27:22 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:27:56 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-101-220.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:15 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Success] 15:31:51 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 15:32:38 nurv101` [n=nurv101@fw.l2f.inesc-id.pt] has joined #lisp 15:33:06 -!- nurv101` is now known as nurv101 15:34:45 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-101-220.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 15:35:48 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:36:32 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@fw.l2f.inesc-id.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 15:38:21 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-150.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:38:36 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:39:03 Cassio [i=Cassio@151.61.94.223] has joined #lisp 15:39:08 -!- KingNato [n=patno@84-217-13-252.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [] 15:39:58 -!- yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@93-120-230-67.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:41:06 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:42:35 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-64-61.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:43:09 tkb [n=Miranda@64.181.9.176] has joined #lisp 15:43:56 ineiros [n=itniemin@130.233.178.16] has joined #lisp 15:44:03 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 15:44:40 -!- iwaki [n=hide@PPPa272.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:45:09 Have there been any rumblings about an ILC in 2011? 15:45:39 -!- glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has left #lisp 15:45:57 JohnnyL [i=excellen@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:05 -!- JohnnyL [i=excellen@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 15:46:10 JohnnyL [i=excellen@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:12 -!- JohnnyL [i=excellen@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 15:49:40 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:50:42 that seems pretty likely to me, given the success of 2009 and the resources of the ILC, but if i heard any rumblings about it, i don't remember. 15:51:32 rpg: where do you live these days? 15:51:56 beach: Minneapolis, MN in the states. 15:52:23 rpg: Ah, OK. I guess you are not interested in the European events then. 15:52:31 does format have a way to iterate over an array (as ~{~} does for a list)? 15:52:40 -!- ineiros [n=itniemin@130.233.178.16] has quit ["gone"] 15:52:57 Ogedei: i don't think so 15:53:08 beach: I am, but this month am off to the ICAPS planning conference in Greece (with a stop in Edinburgh), which is enough air travel for me for a while. 15:53:14 (and for my budget) 15:53:17 i guess you could use split-sequence in conjunction with format. 15:53:21 ineiros [n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 15:53:26 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 15:53:32 Ogedei: no, it doesn't 15:53:40 beach: getting to Western Europe is actually pretty easy for me --- direct flights from minneapolis to Schiphol. 15:53:41 est, Xach: okay, thanks 15:53:46 rpg: I see. If you stick around for a while, you could go to Hamburg as well at the same time. 15:54:01 rpg: That's nice! Which company? 15:54:10 s/company/airline/ 15:54:34 beach: formerly Northwest/KLM, now Delta. Soon you won't have to ask; since there will be only one US carrier left ;-) 15:54:44 heh! 15:54:51 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:55:21 I'd love to go to Hamburg, but my family would probably change the locks if I was gone any longer. 15:55:32 Sad the oldest airline in the world KLM disappeared.. 15:55:33 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@91.194.72.7] has joined #lisp 15:55:39 rpg: Bring your family, that's what I do! 15:55:54 KLM is gonna rock you? 15:55:57 rpg: Granted, mine is pretty small. 15:56:12 beach: You probably have European vacations -- my wife has stingy US company vacation. :-( 15:56:25 Is KLM gone now? 15:56:26 3 weeks? 15:56:45 rpg: I take my family to Vietnam, New Zealand, Australia, etc. 15:57:07 rpg: KLM was bought by Air France a few years ago. 15:57:23 US corporations now replacing vacations with "personal time off," which is even stingier. Don't ask --- too off-topic and too depressing. 15:57:55 rpg: off-topic indeed. Consider moving to the EU. We could use people like you. 15:58:13 rpg: My wife has never regretted leaving the US. 15:58:29 beach: I'd love to. My kids just came back from camp learning Swedish... 15:58:45 *p_l* is personally wondering when USA will fall down, suspects this century or a severe remaking of that country... 15:58:48 sweden is not in the eu! 15:58:48 rpg: Swedish? How useless :) Why Swedish? 15:58:49 I miss europe. 15:59:14 p_l: Unfortunately, China might be the one replacing it, which is definitely worse. 15:59:15 Xach: yes, it is 15:59:25 beach: we're in Minnesota. Minnesota is heavily ethnically Scandinavian. If you saw the terrain, you'd know why.... 15:59:34 est: Only technically. Not in spirit. 15:59:42 brandonz [n=brandon@pool-96-238-52-175.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:45 rpg: Got it. 15:59:46 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:53 Don't know what that means. 15:59:56 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-131.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:07 Norway and Island are not. 16:00:17 est: I am not about to explain it, but if you lived in France, you would know. 16:00:23 rpg: Does anyone in your family have Swedish ancestry? 16:00:29 They are the only contries in scandinavia which aren't. 16:00:32 beach: My wife does. 16:00:41 *cmm* is just back from Canada, found it quite nice. then again, disappearing from this 35 degree heat for two weeks anywhere would have probably worked 16:00:56 rpg: Interesting. Does she speak Swedish? 16:01:09 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:01:24 beach. on the whole the danes are the most agreeable peope 16:01:30 people 16:01:35 beach: No. Her grandparents moved here as children, and the standard in those days was "we're American now, we don't speak Swedish at home." 16:01:49 rpg: Yeah, I heard about that. 16:02:02 rpg: Generally speaking, a good approach for integration. 16:02:11 est: For once I agree with you. 16:02:17 beach: I guess it says something when I am not sure if China is worse 16:02:29 p_l: Ouch! 16:02:37 beach: Normal in immigrants at that time, regardless of origin. But France is also lovely. Spent a week at VERIMAG once, which seemed quite nice. 16:03:06 abend [n=sasha@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:16 ...now that I think of it, I could get China visa easier than USA one, I guess 16:03:21 But to veer back to topic for a moment --- does the ALU solicit people to organize the ILC? Or do they just wait for volunteers? 16:03:43 rpg: running the ALU is the main (sole?) purpose of the ALU 16:04:01 In Cambridge there seemed to be a feeling that it was Europe's turn next time out. 16:04:03 rpg: I'm not sure how they get organizers, though 16:04:29 Xach: I think plying people with strong drink, and then stuffing them in a burlap sack might work. 16:04:36 slyrus_, like this http://paste.lisp.org/display/86302 ..? 16:04:49 rpg: consider Quebec, they say the people there have come to their senses wrt separatism, and it's kind of Europe-like (Montreal is, anyway). closer geographically than the real thing! 16:04:49 At least it worked for the Royal Navy for generations. 16:04:52 rpg: i wish they could get steele next and every time... 16:05:34 *Xach* wants to take a european trip, needs the kids to age a bit to make it easier 16:05:35 Xach: In addition to it being great to interact with Steele, he was about the most careful program chair it's ever been my pleasure to experience. 16:05:36 p_l, meaby it's because almost there is no emigration to china 16:05:38 rpg: I feel partly responsible for that. When I announced I wasn't going to the US while Bush was in power, many people agreed with me, and I would like to think I was part of the reason ILC was held in Cambridge, UK. Now, of course, the situation is very different. 16:05:45 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:06:20 beach: what's very different now? 16:06:21 beach: Europe would be fine, if someone would sign up to do it. But someone may already have --- I'm not privy to the ALU's deliberations. 16:06:31 cmm: Bush is no longer in power. 16:06:34 Obama is popular in europe 16:06:46 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 16:06:49 beach: yeah, but what's really different about it? 16:06:59 I suspect Dan Weinreb has some insight into the ALU/ILC foo. 16:07:01 cmm: I'm not going there. 16:07:02 A good chunk of the craziness has been rolled back, but it will take a long time to undo all the damage. 16:07:06 Particualrly among froggies (french) 16:07:24 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:07:27 milkaI meant even for a visitor visa 16:07:36 *milanj 16:07:46 beach: pity. I was hoping to hear the arguments from someone I know to be sane for once... 16:08:02 yes, but planty of ilegal emigrants go for visitor visa or something like that :) 16:08:07 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 16:08:23 Hard to imagine a place with as suitable as Cambridge, MA, but we can't ask them to do that again twice in a row. 16:08:34 i'm not defending USA just to be clear :) 16:08:44 the last time I went to the US, the immigration official asked me "and are you still 'hacking SBCL'?" 16:08:57 lol 16:08:57 *Xach* votes for Portland, Maine, a beautiful coastal city, internationally accessible 16:09:00 cmm: Consider my action to be directed towards the American voters as opposed to real results. Nobody cares whether I go to the US or not, but if a major conference moves to Europe because of US policy it *might* have *some* impact. 16:09:05 hah :) 16:09:25 beach: fair enough, thanks 16:09:54 jsnell: hah, how come? 16:10:15 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@92.82.44.216] has joined #lisp 16:10:20 jsnell: Serious? 16:11:01 the immigration official is clearly a planet lisp reader 16:11:03 luis: I wish I knew. my best guess is that I've been associated with evil words like hacking on the internet, and am now tagged as a telecommunications terrorist or something in their systems 16:11:21 what ?? 16:11:35 jsnell: and did they let you in? 16:11:36 I think it's a reaction to the semantic net the NSA have been building. 16:11:37 and did you get visa ? :) 16:11:37 yes, that's the other option, but when I tried to joke about it I was told to 'please answer the question, sir' 16:11:38 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:11:45 jsnell: I might have belived that unless "SBCL" had also been mentioned. 16:12:23 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:31 jsnell: but did you at some point state that that's what you were doing or did they research that themselves? 16:12:32 yes, they let me in after I truthfully answered 'not really these days' 16:12:51 jsnell: Wow! It looks like I am not going back to the US any time soon. 16:12:59 heh 16:13:02 beach: they once kicked out a scientist because of one of his papers, at passport check-in at an airport 16:13:23 luis: I definitely didn't mention that myself, on this or on a previous trip 16:13:27 *drewc* would like to see ILC in Vancouver 16:13:40 why not? 16:13:43 jsnell: wow, that's insane. 16:13:46 beach: and by "kicked out" I mean that he got permanently banned from entering USA 16:14:42 not a big loss 16:14:42 p_l: Interestingly, the US government has not realized for a couple of decades that what made the US dominate science in the 20th century was liberal rules for immigrant scientists. I think the more restrictive policy might be suicidal. 16:14:46 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-64-61.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:15:36 Well the US math education sucks so wouldhae to rely on imigrants. 16:15:47 would have 16:16:00 -!- prip [n=_prip@host30-133-dynamic.43-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:16:06 beach: It won't unless you Europeans start liberalizing your immigration policies. You might even start with me... ;-) 16:16:10 beach: said paper conflicted with "War on Drugs", as it recorded his personal experience with drugs back when he was young 16:16:16 you can probably still get in easily if you are nazzi scientist 16:16:42 Nazzi sounds like a fashionable italian nazi. 16:16:45 rpg: many european countries have easier immigrations policies than USA 16:16:47 prip [n=_prip@host147-194-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:16:47 unlikely, geriatric care is expensive 16:16:51 milanj: Not now that formaldehyde is a controlled substance... 16:17:01 p_l: working immigrants? 16:17:03 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslfb169.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:17:30 p_l: it's been a while since I checked, but it used to be really hard to get working papers... 16:17:34 rpg: Even working imigrants 16:17:46 exception seems to be UK, among others 16:18:00 And Canada was very hard, too, because of Commonwealth preference. 16:18:09 UK is said to be ok for working immigration. similar "points" system to Canada and Australia, last I looked 16:18:19 yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@79-126-53-62.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 16:18:45 Anyway, perhaps one of you would care to make the point by volunteering to host the ILC next year? 16:18:50 :-) 16:19:29 well they have already been to Oslo 16:19:31 rpg: I think if you have a job you would be welcome. 16:19:57 *est* was the redhead in the back 16:20:09 rpg: I have some family over in alsace, we can all go hang out over there and my cousins' grandmother can make us cookies or something 16:20:11 :P 16:20:31 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:43 Vancover? 16:20:48 sykopomp: I have some friends in Strasbourg and they say it's very difficult there now because the cost of living has been driven up so much by having the Parliament... 16:21:11 No ILC was ever hosted in Canada. 16:21:14 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:21:48 rpg: that's unfortunate. My family hasn't complained to me about it, but I believe it. Maybe they're not terribly affected by living in Colmar 16:22:38 Vancouver would be nice. As would Montreal or Quebec, but we'd need someone local. If it was Vancouver, surely Gregor Kiczales could fill the role of "Lisp Eminence in Residence." 16:23:07 *est* is an idiot an is learing a tot of lisp from the 'smart' people here 16:23:23 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@rrdhcp-220-133.redrover.cornell.edu] has quit [] 16:23:30 lol 16:24:36 lnostdal: yeah! 16:24:56 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.228.149] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:25:00 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:25:17 dt440 [n=rene@CPE0006258c7b56-CM001ade842556.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:25:23 later.. some of have to work. 16:25:55 of v us v 16:25:57 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:26:08 Has anyone run into issues with GCL returning segfaults? 16:26:15 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-nmnpclsholjxxetp] has joined #lisp 16:27:18 dt440: unless you really have to use GCL for some reason, you should probably try another Lisp. 16:27:48 Is GCL a descendent of the old Kyoto CL? 16:27:55 yes 16:28:16 luis: any reason for that? any suggestions as to a better CL? 16:28:36 dt440: SBCL. 16:28:44 dt440: Clozure, SBCL, and maybe CLISP are good free CLs 16:28:44 dt440: SBCL is one of the more actively developed. 16:29:01 if you're doing Serious Business, you can try Allegro or LispWorks, too. 16:29:16 the first may or may not require you to sell your soul. 16:29:41 you can do Serious Business with SBCL and CCL, you can pay for support. 16:29:42 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:29:44 sykopomp: but you can pay in installments! 16:29:47 -!- michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:29:59 michaelw [i=michaelw@88.198.49.16] has joined #lisp 16:30:19 stassats`: I wasn't excluding them 16:30:46 and wasn't including either 16:30:51 thanks everyone, trying sbcl, going to see if that fixes the issue. if it does I'll dump gcl 16:30:51 *slyrus_* wonders if mcclim will work in 64-bit mode under this new os... 16:30:51 was too 16:31:00 stassats`: note the ",too" at the end! 16:31:30 although, I wasn't aware of any real commercial support for SBCL 16:31:58 it seemed to me like you'd pick some random hacker that happened to care enough to help you if you paid them, as opposed to CCL's more apparent (more organized?) commercial support. 16:32:21 sykopomp: http://sb-studio.net/ 16:32:35  16:32:39 that's great! 16:33:12 -!- tagac [n=user@119.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["/* */"] 16:34:43 -!- logBot1559 [n=logBot@59.92.172.138] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:35:48 yaroslav_h__ [n=yaroslav@93-120-201-171.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 16:35:59 saikat_ [n=saikat@rrdhcp-220-133.redrover.cornell.edu] has joined #lisp 16:36:10 nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:36:24 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:38:08 ejs [n=eugen@4-72-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:19 am i missing something, or what's the big difference between the second and the third values of COMPILE-FILE? 16:38:55 they're only different in respect to style-warning, not very useful... 16:39:02 cp2_ [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 16:39:09 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:39:12 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 16:39:26 Brucio-8 [n=Brucio-8@adsl-76-195-2-12.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:40 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:39:48 yay. this is beirc in 64-bit mode. hardly impressive, but a first for this wonky commercial unix. 16:39:50 stassats`: No, an implementation may signal a compiler-error which inherits from serious-condition, but not from error 16:40:08 stassats`: the seconds is true if user-level code failed, basically 16:40:15 *the second value 16:40:38 is it me or does the --load parameter of sbcl cause it to complain a lot? 16:40:44 now, about those threads stress tests... 16:41:19 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 16:41:31 I mean, a warning about an undefined variable in a setq statement defining said variable is a bit crazy... 16:41:43 tcr: the problem is, swank-sbcl doesn't load a fasl if failure-p is T, even if it's just a harmless warning 16:41:50 dt440: SETQ does not define variable, it assigns to a variable. 16:42:04 dt440: You have to establish a binding for a variable first before you can assign to it, though 16:42:24 Brucio-8: Congratulations! 16:42:30 nope, still hangs... damn. 16:42:47 stassats`: I think it was me in fact who made it do so 16:42:59 thanks beach 16:43:09 stassats`: What "harmless" warning are you talking of specifically? 16:43:14 -!- yaroslav_h_ [n=yaroslav@93-120-194-82.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:43:24 oh well, time to go do some real work. 16:43:31 like in (defun foo (&optional (bar *foo*)) bar) 16:43:41 so you're saying (setq a 1) is incorrect in terms of defining a and setting it to 1? 16:43:42 -!- Brucio-8 [n=Brucio-8@adsl-76-195-2-12.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:44:01 the resulted fasl can be safely loaded 16:44:04 stassats`: Uh how is that harmless? 16:44:14 No it can't if FOO is redefined and previously worked fine 16:44:24 This is very important when you work on, say, sbcl itself 16:44:49 hmm, but if i know what i'm doing and ready to shoot myself in the foot 16:45:02 slyrus_: I don't know what OS that is, but I have been using McCLIM successfully on 64-bit Ubuntu GNU/Linux for quite some time. 16:45:19 dt440: That's right. 16:45:22 stassats`: Then use slime-eval-defun, perhaps 16:45:29 dt440: SETQ sets variables... unless you have previously defined a, then you are invoking undefined behaviour. 16:45:36 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B30E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:55 tcr: only C-c C-k fails, C-c C-c loads that definition 16:46:14 drewc: so how would I go about declaring variables then? 16:46:17 stassats`: Yes, I think I changed that locally but haven't comitted that yet. Feel free to do so. 16:46:28 dt440: defparameter, etc 16:46:30 dt440: Can i suggest a book? 16:46:36 stassats`: It's very frustrating when you have to restart your lisp, and set up your precious image state just because of a stupid typo 16:46:37 minion: tell dt440 about pcl 16:46:38 dt440: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 16:46:52 dt440: defvar, defconstant. 16:47:23 drewc: I already had pcl open, thanks :) 16:47:42 tcr: then current behaviour is inconsistent 16:47:53 dt440: i know gigamonkey didn't tell you that SETQ defines variables! ;) 16:47:59 stassats`: Yes, but the bug is in the behaviour of C-c C-c, not C-c C-k :) 16:48:36 not loading a file with warnings in an IDE seems pretty horrid 16:48:40 would swank::*load-on-failure* be ok? 16:48:53 -!- yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@79-126-53-62.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:49:07 yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@93-120-231-80.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 16:49:14 in the rather niche case of people hacking on the implementation, the tools to rescue the image still exist 16:49:22 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 16:49:29 Uh not any less horrid then asdf barfing on it 16:49:46 asdf barfing on it is horrible, but this is even worse 16:49:46 tcr: only in sbcl! 16:49:59 dt440: another thing is that you _must_ surround global (special) variables with *earmuffs* as they are dynamically scoped... otherwise you've got a good chance of breaking a closure somewhere. 16:50:02 at least for asdf the code you're loading is presumably at some level of stability 16:50:22 barfing in asdf is customizable 16:50:22 merus [n=merus@pal-175-227.itap.purdue.edu] has joined #lisp 16:50:57 and is defined as (defvar *compile-file-failure-behaviour* #+sbcl :error #-sbcl :warn) 16:50:57 while in slime you're loading code that's under development. and stopping to make the compiler happy about everything doesn't really strike me as very lispy 16:51:29 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit ["off"] 16:51:29 wonder why sbcl is special 16:52:53 Hm I do not see what's causing the behaviour for C-c C-k 16:53:33 C-c C-k doesn't load files with warnings? That's news to me. 16:53:40 I'm fine with a global variable that I can toggle. 16:54:00 luis: at least on sbcl 16:54:14 swank-backend::*trap-load-time-warnings* does not affect swank-compile-file but perhaps should be made so on that occassion 16:54:14 thanks for you help, it works now :) 16:55:02 -!- dt440 [n=rene@CPE0006258c7b56-CM001ade842556.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:55:20 behaviour isn't consistent among swank backends, if new special variable would be introduced, what default value should it have? 16:55:26 I wouldn't mind if *load-on-failure* would be nil for sbcl packages automatically, but perhaps that's too much magic 16:55:40 *load-on-warnings* 16:57:29 stassats`: indeed, I had never noticed this. Possibly because I use C-c C-c much more often than C-c C-k. 16:58:10 stassats`: Notice that compile-filing (defun foo (&optional (bar *foo*)) bar) results in failurep being T 16:58:25 benny [n=benny@i577A233F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:58:40 yes, that's what i was talking about 16:58:42 so actually the code does load on warnings for C-c C-k, and C-c C-c and I only modified the stuff locally 16:59:10 failure-p is set whenever there is warning or errors 16:59:25 (other than style-warning) 17:00:21 -!- yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@93-120-231-80.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:00:22 Bah so my initial comment was hogwash! 17:00:36 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p54BCB93C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 17:01:20 dysinger [n=tim@98.246.183.155] has joined #lisp 17:02:01 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit ["leaving"] 17:02:36 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-195-2-12.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:03:14 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:03:17 Well, for the record, stassats` I'd like if you add a swank::*load-on-warnings* variable. 17:03:29 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has quit [] 17:04:00 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-151-196-43-142.balt.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:05:33 sounds like a mistake, warnings on one system load fine without systems on another 17:06:01 the ANSI CL standard is to vague to allow this to be portable 17:07:05 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-131.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:07:24 Warnings should NEVER abort a compile 17:08:38 s/without systems/without warings/ 17:08:41 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:08:59 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:09:14 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:09:34 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:43 -!- brandonz [n=brandon@pool-96-238-52-175.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["bye"] 17:10:14 -!- yaroslav_h__ [n=yaroslav@93-120-201-171.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:10:27 stassats`: Should write a swank-backend::sane-compile-file which handles warnings, and errors, and returns errorsp, warningsp, style-warningsp 17:11:19 lol, who would choose the 'insane'version? 17:11:45 tcr: maybe just compile-file, without loading at all? 17:11:50 *est* detects a bit of agitation.. 17:12:13 stassats: Hm? 17:12:41 stassats`: sane-compile-file is a wrapper around compile-file, it does not do any loading 17:13:31 sounds ugly and inefficient to use :around, Just fix it 17:14:32 tcr: and swank-compile-file loading according to preferences and results? 17:14:53 exactly 17:15:08 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:15:39 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslha217.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:18:11 man, i gotta cut down the noise on my output considerably. 17:18:58 i've already got asdf verbose nil, and some muffle conditions... and yet i still get 15 lines of crud before my program's output 17:19:07 thats hell on pipes unless i want to use alot of grep 17:19:09 any suggestions? 17:19:49 Write your proper code? 17:19:54 Demosthenes: dump an image 17:19:57 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:02 I suggest not telling us what the output you see is 17:20:08 Demosthenes pasted "Output noise" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86307 17:20:27 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:20:48 bind *error-output* 17:21:03 isn't that STDERR? 17:21:31 It need not be 17:22:15 i can likely fix the generic errors, i was using defmethod, i can add a generic 17:22:31 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 17:22:34 but the load and warning would still be there 17:22:39 hello 17:22:51 see also http://l1sp.org/cl/warn 17:23:05 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:23:56 this is just one of the crazy things about common lisp. this has been thought of, probably literally decades ago. with some other language you'd end up writing your own... 17:24:21 -!- Cassio [i=Cassio@151.61.94.223] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:24:27 Cassio [i=Cassio@151.61.94.223] has joined #lisp 17:24:41 i don't think sbcl --script has been stress tested very much 17:25:12 erg, i tried to defparam error-out and it bombed on a package lock :P 17:25:15 sellout [n=greg@c-76-24-28-29.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:25 Demosthenes, setf 17:25:48 Demosthenes: setf, yeah 17:26:00 That is nothing.. You should try compiling axiom. (A beast at the best of times) 17:26:17 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 17:26:56 there are times i ponder why i didn't use perl ;] 17:27:07 it doesn't use asdf as it requires a pre-processor for it's litterate code approach. 17:27:26 asdf is extensible 17:27:55 isn't that output sent to its own stream anyway, Demosthenes ? .. i mean; it is common to have many output streams from a program -- in perl or anything too 17:28:17 *shrug* 17:28:48 stassats: you are right. It should be possible to extend it to run under SADF. 17:28:49 ..though, in addition sbcl is meant to be useful directly from the CLI also (REPL) 17:28:51 ASDF 17:29:00 (yet another stream) 17:30:13 ..it is not unheard of to redirect stderr to a log-file for instance .. isn't that possible? 17:30:42 *lnostdal* tries 17:30:51 only the style warnings goto STDERR, all the rest (including the loads) goto STDOUT 17:31:24 at this point, the only option is myscript.lisp 2>/dev/null | grep -v '^; ' 17:31:24 huh That sounds very C 17:31:35 try *standard-error* 17:31:55 ok 17:32:17 Demosthenes: can you paste your script again? 17:32:23 there is no *standard-error* 17:32:33 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B30E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:33:35 Could you tell me why something like: (defun my-sort (tree) (sort tree (lambda (listA listB) (> (first listA)) (first listB)))) won't sort anything? 17:34:35 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@rrdhcp-220-133.redrover.cornell.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:35:00 what's anything? 17:35:12 `indeed... looks like it will only sort lists ;) 17:35:20 (my-sort '((1 2 3) (0 1 2))) => ((0 1 2) (1 2 3)) ; looks alright 17:35:23 CL-USER> (my-sort '((3 2 )(1 2)(5 6))) 17:35:23 ((5 6) (1 2) (3 2)) 17:36:08 oh well 17:36:15 fix your parenthesis 17:36:16 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 17:36:23 Demosthenes annotated #86307 "File Header" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86307#1 17:36:56 -!- ejs [n=eugen@4-72-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:37:20 Demosthenes, ok, if what you say is right i'd report a bug/feature-request for sbcl and create my own FD/named-pipe/whatever .. anything just to avoid all trouble completely .. it doesn't seem right to have to muffle all output from the compiler to get _application code_ to work the way you want it 17:37:30 mrSpec: do you see it? 17:37:42 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-217-186.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 17:37:43 Demosthenes: use (make-broadcast-stream) to discard things 17:37:47 ((5 6) (3 2) (1 2)) 17:38:04 [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.95.43.97] has joined #lisp 17:38:05 heh yeah ;) thanks ;) 17:38:28 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:38:30 mrSpec: (sort tree #'> :key #'first) also 17:39:06 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:39:14 can I use (nth ) as key parameter too ? 17:39:16 Demosthenes: why are you not dumping an image and using a custom toplevel? seems sub-optimal to be loading from source/fasl every time you startup 17:39:21 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:39:28 I'm going to implement radix-sort 17:39:41 mrSpec: no 17:39:46 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1CE8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:57 drewc: its launched from shell (#!/usr/bin/sbcl --script) 17:40:00 is there a better way? 17:40:03 Xach: ok, thanks 17:40:04 mrSpec: You would have to create an anonymous function for a specific value of N. 17:40:04 Demosthenes: dump an image 17:40:19 that's suboptimal, too 17:40:20 beach: anonymouse function? 17:40:23 Demosthenes: yes, dump an image. 17:40:28 I was going to use optional parameter 17:40:58 anonymouse function is label? 17:41:03 it's no script anymore, it's a dumped image with a separate source code 17:41:05 Demosthenes: for my 'scripting' type tasks i have an image that contains all my scripts, and i pass a command line paramter to choose which to run. 17:41:15 mrSpec: you could make a new function to make it for you. (defun make-nth-fun (n) (lambda (list) (nth n thing))) 17:41:29 mrSpec: (sort tree #'> :key (make-nth-fun 2)) 17:42:13 Ok, I'll try :D 17:42:14 I saw a beutiful verion of insertin sort for list's here the other day 17:42:31 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:33 fully functional 17:42:52 est: do you remember what day it was? 17:42:53 and programmed in multiple techniques 17:43:17 mrSpec: saturday 17:43:17 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 17:43:32 OK, I'll check logs 17:44:14 mrSpec: You misunderstad, It was written in Ocalm. It is not 'here' 17:44:39 ahh ok. 17:46:50 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:26 I was studying a bit of OCAML for a book I am studying 'Types and Programming Languages' by Pierce 17:48:58 anyhow it is in the Ocalm tutorial bit of the anual 17:49:09 chapter 1 17:49:45 sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:01 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:50:02 est: topic please... this is not a channel about ocaml ;) 17:50:15 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:51:07 hmm. http://bknr.net/svn/ediware/ seems empty. anyone know of another complete hunchentoot repo? 17:51:08 no it isn'r, but I appreciate functional code of some elegance, and I am sure it could easelly be translated to lisp 17:51:23 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-76-24-28-29.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:51:24 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 17:51:48 hypno: http://bknr.net/svn/trunk/thirdparty/hunchentoot/ ? 17:52:58 *leo2007* has just setup w3m to view hyperspec. 17:52:59 luis: well, that is nice, but i think the "thirdparty" dir has more stuff than needed. 17:53:24 hypno: is that a problem? 17:54:00 ejs [n=eugen@163-47-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:18 i wanted Hans version since it had all depencies, etc in one nice package. 17:54:35 hypno: how about clbuild? 17:54:54 Huncentoot has become a bug ridden bastard with no central control, just a loose coonection of fixes. That's the problem 17:55:28 I miss Edi.. 17:55:33 luis: hmm, i've never tryied clbuild actually. i can give it a go, thanks. 17:57:21 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:59:23 anyone considered putting huncentoot under clbuild? (one version this time) 17:59:53 It seems to be forking 18:00:35 est: clbuild includes hunchentoot already. What do you mean? 18:01:15 I mean it is full of bugs, and the bugs have patches available from other sites 18:01:47 lhz [n=shrekz@213.114.170.185] has joined #lisp 18:02:20 They corrections should be ade to the central repository. 18:02:26 made 18:02:31 metawilm [n=willem@g225021050.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:02:40 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 18:03:13 est: is bknr.net the central repository? 18:03:49 I'd have to check. 18:04:04 No 18:04:20 est talks nonsense, as always 18:04:37 WTF does that mean 18:05:12 I've had nothing but problems porting my code to the new verion 18:05:22 got through clbuild 18:05:29 version 18:06:20 Is there a never version of the clbuild adress list? 18:06:26 address 18:06:49 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:33 Oddly, it is difficult to make clbuild update itself.. 18:07:36 est: clbuild is in darcs, so 'darcs pull' to find out. 18:07:58 will do 18:08:09 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:16 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:54 -!- mrSpec is now known as agipe 18:10:55 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:11:49 drewc: Though I recommend doing a darcs get from scratch if one haven't updated clbuild in long time... there was this one patch that causes something that looks like an infinite loop 18:11:59 -!- agipe is now known as mrSpec 18:11:59 *Xach* wonders if :if-exists and :if-does-not-exist should be :when-exists and :unless-exists 18:12:17 Xach: don't wonder. The answer is yes. 18:12:18 yes! :) 18:12:48 *Xach* writes a negative, sarcastic Complete Idiot's Guide to CL:OPEN 18:13:20 *stassats* thinks about writing a guide to CL:IDENTITY 18:13:29 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:13:32 *luis* likes if-does-not-exist better than unless-exists for some reason 18:13:49 They are just tokens, of no great significance 18:13:54 luis: really? I always found it very clunky 18:13:56 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 18:14:12 i find it clunky but i'm also not *completely* sold on unless-exists. can you suggest something else that you'd like better? 18:14:36 (this is idle speculation, of course, i'm not going to demand a change in cltl3) 18:14:39 :if-does-not-exist feels more descriptive and reads easier imo. 18:14:39 if-absent> 18:14:53 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-64-61.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:15:26 michaelw: I have trouble with the word unless for some reason. I often have to think twice to make I'm parsing (unless foo ...) correctly. 18:15:35 Well consider it in the next ANSI meeting ;) 18:15:40 *make sure 18:16:57 dialtone [n=dialtone@99.136.101.166] has joined #lisp 18:17:40 -!- ausente is now known as bebado1 18:18:07 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:18:14 lispm [n=joswig@e177158075.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:19:39 luis: me to 18:19:42 too, even 18:20:03 -!- Ogedei [n=user@e178192240.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:20:13 Ogedei [n=user@e178192240.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:20:36 anybody near NYC who could run a traceroute for me? 18:20:48 ? 18:21:22 why can't you run one yourself? 18:22:08 because I am on the other side of the ocean 18:22:21 Having trouble coming to tems with RIP? 18:22:38 terms 18:22:39 milanj- [n=milan@77.46.219.184] has joined #lisp 18:23:29 The local networks hide a trace route. 18:23:29 michaelw: well, sure. 18:24:21 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-nmnpclsholjxxetp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:24:21 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 18:26:31 something fishey is going one here michaelw 18:26:47 est? 18:27:51 p_l: those kinds of messes are all too common with darcs... i've recently gone git after a straw/camel/back incident. 18:28:52 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-idybrdlokezovmil] has joined #lisp 18:30:10 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.194.27] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:31:29 drewc: few days ago I got an email from admin staff of my shell account asking about "darcs pull" that had eaten a whole core, 100%, for 11h. Guess what it was doing... 18:33:03 wild guess: retrying to "pull" even tho your quota was full? 18:33:05 p_l: ayuh.. i've had similar issues, only i'm the admin staff :) 18:34:00 hypno: I'm nowhere near 50% of my quota :> 18:34:18 it was purely a cpu-bound problem 18:36:58 saikat_ [n=saikat@rrdhcp-220-133.redrover.cornell.edu] has joined #lisp 18:37:19 now I always run darcs with nice -n 10 18:37:52 I have a 50EUR AdWords voucher which goes bad today, anybody wants it? (AFAICT, it's for new sign-ups) 18:37:53 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:38:26 hmmm.. anyone ever tried something with the echo-server example that comes with iolib? I do (run-server) and get a happy #, but I don't see anything else... also netstat -ntpl shows nothing running on the port it should be using (9999) 18:40:06 ah.. uh, duh! :timeout larger than 10 seconds helps... ;) 18:40:23 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:40:34 michaelw: yes! 18:44:04 p_l: now i run darcs with 'git' :P 18:44:07 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:44:28 p_l: took a little getting used to, but i've grown to love git. 18:45:26 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-rfsfymelmducekkx] has joined #lisp 18:47:09 didn't work for Xach. Anybody else? just drop me a note (mw@foldr.org) 18:47:26 I have systems in Toronto that I could trace from, if that'd help. 18:47:46 drewc: tell me when that works on darcs repos :D 18:48:48 p_l: yeah, i wish :P 18:52:14 merus_ [n=merus@pal-175-227.itap.purdue.edu] has joined #lisp 18:52:27 -!- merus_ [n=merus@pal-175-227.itap.purdue.edu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:52:33 Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 18:52:43 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 18:54:37 brown [n=user@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 18:54:48 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:54:48 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 18:55:06 -!- brown is now known as Guest86281 18:55:21 drewc, horray for git! 18:56:18 Masuran [n=michael@78-40-97-26.vibit.eu] has joined #lisp 18:56:35 -!- Masuran [n=michael@78-40-97-26.vibit.eu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:56:58 masuran [n=michael@78-40-97-26.vibit.eu] has joined #lisp 19:01:39 metawilm_ [n=willem@g225021190.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:02:38 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:04:55 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:05:41 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:05:46 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 19:05:56 Xach: what about :if-exists and :if-missing ? 19:06:17 drewc: what do you mean you run darcs with 'git' ? 19:10:05 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:11:40 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-23.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:15:21 fe[nl]ix: it means i don't use darcs at all anymore :D 19:16:03 lol 19:16:18 I thought you had found a git<->darcs gateway :D 19:16:21 fe[nl]ix: i sent you a second draft of the CLtL3 charter, if you have a chance to review it let me know.. we need to get moving :) 19:16:30 just read it 19:16:36 fe[nl]ix: such things exist, but they don't seem to work for me. 19:17:54 -!- metawilm [n=willem@g225021050.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:17:54 -!- metawilm_ is now known as metawilm 19:18:00 -!- masuran [n=michael@78-40-97-26.vibit.eu] has quit ["leaving"] 19:20:13 saikat__ [n=saikat@rrdhcp-220-133.redrover.cornell.edu] has joined #lisp 19:20:46 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@rrdhcp-220-133.redrover.cornell.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:21:57 -!- bebado1 is now known as ausente 19:22:38 drewc: an idea for cltl3 - an :if-exists mode for CL:OPEN indicating that a temp file should be created and atomically replace the old file unless CLOSE is called with :abort t 19:22:47 tic: git is overcomplicated 19:23:46 est: your mom is overcomplicated 19:23:59 I prefer darcs 19:24:25 Just discovered that darcs doesn't support symbolic links. @#$%^&*! 19:24:42 or amoung central repository systems mercury 19:25:33 dlowe: I think that's what :if-exists :supersede is suppose to do 19:25:50 "a new file with the same name as the old one is created. If possible, the implementation should not destroy the old file until the new stream is closed." 19:26:05 est: You prefer darcs to your mom? 19:26:05 fe[nl]ix: shrug. that's not what sbcl does 19:26:07 It means exactly what it says 19:26:30 tagac [n=user@119.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:26:50 fe[nl]ix: anyway, I'd like a guaranteed behavior 19:26:51 dlowe: the wording is indeed a bit unclear, but AFAIK that's what :supersede did on Genera 19:26:52 If a file exist's overwrite it 19:27:25 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-208-118.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 19:27:39 antifuchs: beach what has my mom got to do with anything? (I am 42) 19:27:55 hell O 19:28:11 hello levy 19:28:22 hi levy :) 19:28:32 summer time is over :( 19:28:45 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:28:47 meh .. rain is good for hacking? :) 19:28:51 three weeks holiday 19:29:01 it's still very sunny here 19:29:06 The cl-ppcre:scan-to-string returns something like: "string" #("str1" "str2" ..."strn")? How is that called? 19:29:13 levy: Will Hell shine brightløy on you levy 19:29:20 Where should i read up on that in the gigamonkey-book? 19:30:03 slash_: multiple values, one of which is an array? 19:30:08 slash_: multiple return value, the first is the match, the second is an array of strings containing the register group matches 19:30:18 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 19:30:27 slash_: actually, both values are arrays. :) 19:30:28 ahitty rainhole with amonth of more ore less continuous rain in Olso 19:30:35 -!- thunk [n=user@74-130-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:30:35 Ahh ok thank you. 19:31:55 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:31:55 I find multiple value call to be way underused 19:32:39 it's kind of verbose 19:32:44 in fact multiple values in general 19:33:01 Phaze: agreed 19:33:17 slash_: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/the-special-operators.html, see "Multiple Values" 19:33:39 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.227.241] has joined #lisp 19:33:50 or look up mata-bang bind 19:33:55 meta 19:34:01 knobo [n=user@216-55-160.100710.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 19:34:14 dlowe: the problem with :supersede is that it can't be reliably implemented on any *nix, and it's unpredictable on windows 19:34:45 I've forgot how to make streams in lisp have #\Return in newline.. 19:34:47 anyone? 19:34:57 I use usocket 19:35:02 -!- dysinger [n=tim@98.246.183.155] has quit [] 19:35:24 No you need a termpri 19:36:01 or in format a ~% 19:36:40 est: that would only give me #\Newline, and not #\Return #\Newline 19:36:42 dlowe: there was a feeble discussion on lkml a couple of months ago about adding an O_REPLACE option to open, but it didn't gone anywhere 19:36:42 Ah, est is jthing's new nickname. That explains a lot. :-) 19:37:09 It depends on the OS sure 19:37:36 mac return. unix newline, windows return newline 19:37:49 but I suspect you know thist 19:38:08 est: A few weeks ago, I defended your presence here, but now I regret that. 19:38:12 knobo: you need to pick the right external-format. If usocket doesn't support that directly you can use flexi-streams. 19:38:24 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 19:38:26 luis: thanx 19:38:58 beach: sorry to hear that 19:39:16 knobo: the webpage suggests that flexi-streams is the way to go. 19:39:25 -!- metawilm [n=willem@g225021190.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 19:39:39 est: Yeah, you are back to your old yourself where you say incorrect things with great authority without even checking facts. 19:39:40 knobo: you can also use iolib, which implements its own stream magic. 19:39:42 beach: do I remember correctly that you know anders haraldsson? 19:40:04 beach: I'll try to avoid that 19:40:04 ampleyfly: I do yes. 19:40:34 ampleyfly: We met in Milano for ELS 2009 last time and had a great time. 19:40:53 beach: your ex-professor ? 19:41:02 luis: I was to quick in my choice , as it appeared to me that hunchentoot uses usocket.. 19:41:17 fe[nl]ix: absolutely! And one of the best ones too! 19:41:23 beach: =) 19:41:28 beach: yepp, great guy :) 19:41:32 beach: Though in the case of optional and key it is taken right out of Sonya keene's book " Object Oriented Progamming in Cmmon Lisp" 19:42:09 he's holding a lecture this tuesday, "lisp 50 years" I think it was =) 19:42:17 so I'm going 19:42:34 ampleyfly: Tell him hello from me please! 19:42:52 heh, from beach? 19:42:53 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:43:13 ampleyfly: from Robert Strandh is easier I guess. 19:43:15 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-150.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 19:43:33 I'll try to remember that =) 19:43:37 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 19:43:43 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:43:53 anyone have an image dump ref for sbcl? 19:44:10 sbcl manual! 19:44:24 save-lisp-and-die.. 19:44:33 bedtime. Good night! 19:45:15 night 19:45:16 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:08 gnight 19:46:15 oh .. est is jthing.. that makes sense. 19:47:26 hehe... don't die after you have saved your lisp 19:47:28 ? 19:48:21 est = jthing = younder 19:48:48 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has left #lisp 19:49:03 as I explained earliear 19:49:37 sorry if I am a idiot. I don't do it intentionally 19:49:53 est: well then, as i've explained many times to younder and jthing, please lurk harder... you contribute nothing but noise and annoyance. 19:50:01 am i right that slime's indent is implemented in emacs lisp? 19:50:39 yes 19:51:01 levy: it uses some introspection on the CL side too 19:51:21 but the text -> text function is elisp, right? 19:51:50 how easy would it be to replace that with the one i have in CL? 19:52:09 forget it 19:52:24 seangrove [n=user@adsl-69-225-113-166.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:45 don't listen to est, please 19:52:50 est, that's a useless answer 19:53:00 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 19:53:14 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 19:53:28 later.. (outstayed my welcome) 19:53:31 *drewc* laces up the op boots 19:53:34 -!- est [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 19:53:35 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 19:53:54 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o drewc 19:54:22 ....and takes them off again. 19:54:35 *Adlai* is a bit puzzled, what just happened there? 19:54:37 hehe, source-format producing lisp code without parens looks like python 19:55:01 *Adlai* reads backlog. nvm. 19:55:30 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:56:28 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:56:39 levy: well, indentation functions just do with text whatever they want, so easiness would depend on how your indentation is implemented 19:56:47 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:56:58 stassats, string -> string, using pjb-s reader 19:57:17 i just would like to hook it up under slime 19:57:26 murbank [i=murbank@69.90.123.68] has joined #lisp 19:57:29 emacs manipulate buffers, you can process the whole buffer 19:57:59 What is the easiest way to read a C struct in lisp? CFFI? 19:58:42 murbank: the easiest way is probably your implementation's FFI. CFFI is the portable way. 19:58:53 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@68.100.82.124] has joined #lisp 19:59:14 murbank: and i suggest going with portable over easy :) 19:59:23 drewc: Throw away code. 19:59:37 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:10 Is def-c-struct the correct thing to use for reading? 20:00:29 (reading structs defined in C) 20:01:02 murbank: are you using a C struct in interfacing with some C program, or are you reading a source code definition of a C struct? 20:01:17 murbank: http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/index.html 20:02:02 Adlai: The latter. 20:02:04 levy: when indenting one line, just send the whole top-level form to your indentation routine and replace it 20:02:47 Adlai: I could compile it and interface. 20:03:18 drewc: ah, I'd say that using CFFI is both easier and portable. :-) 20:03:44 xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-150-243.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:52 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 20:05:20 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:06:09 luis: i might agree, save for the fact that what is already there is easier than what is not.. it's not terribly difficult to install CFFI, but it's certainly more difficult than not installing anything :P 20:06:53 -!- xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-150-243.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:07:29 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:07:30 -!- Ogedei [n=user@e178192240.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:08:38 drewc: I've never used CFFI but I have it installed because of libraries that use it 20:09:14 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@213.114.170.185] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:10:36 *drewc* is coding using CFFI right now. 20:10:39 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 20:10:54 drewc: what exactly ? 20:11:12 antgreen [n=user@bas2-toronto06-1279473023.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:12:46 fe[nl]ix: a callback actually... working on a product that integrates the Gnu Octave dll and they need a callback from C to Lisp when octave signals an error. 20:12:53 levy: does pjb's reader preserve comments? 20:13:06 -!- saikat__ [n=saikat@rrdhcp-220-133.redrover.cornell.edu] has quit [] 20:13:40 michaelw, it does have a source-text reader which returns CLOS ast instances instead of simple forms 20:13:47 -!- laynor_ [n=laynor@93.107.92.229] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:13:48 laynor [n=laynor@93.107.81.241] has joined #lisp 20:13:55 i've modified this to also keep whitespace, so a formatter is pretty simple 20:14:11 i also have a syntax highlighter 20:14:53 and plan to combine this with cl-walker to be able to handle (lambda (list) (list list)) case where each list means different things 20:15:46 the reader can handle custom reader macros, like the xml syntax in cl-quasi-quote 20:16:38 michaelw, didn't answer your question... so, yes it does preserve 20:16:58 michaelw, you can safely and simply rebuild the original text from the ast 20:17:39 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:17:43 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:03 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6FA4E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:22 cool 20:20:57 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 20:21:29 -!- seangrove [n=user@adsl-69-225-113-166.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:23:33 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:26:03 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has joined #lisp 20:26:35 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 20:28:01 "This is SBCL 1.0.30.46.external-formats.7-dirty" 20:28:03 I feel dirty 20:28:03 how do i replace a region in elisp? 20:29:15 eh, delete-region, insert 20:30:13 p4s4l [n=g@ppp079166138207.dsl.hol.gr] has joined #lisp 20:31:09 -!- p4s4l [n=g@ppp079166138207.dsl.hol.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 20:31:25 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-29-33.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:31:33 -!- merus [n=merus@pal-175-227.itap.purdue.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:32:54 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:33:44 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:34:25 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 20:34:41 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 20:39:15 dysinger [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:55 I have installed emacs and slime on emacs. 20:40:10 my .emacs config file is as sparse as can be though. Not sure if that matters. 20:40:31 now i need to learn how to use emacs before I can even start to learn lisp :( 20:41:10 well, you do not /have/ to, but it is the recommended way. 20:41:20 type C-h t 20:41:30 emma: actually, not entirely -- a lot of SLIME commands are available through the mouse, if you have the menus visible. 20:44:24 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-141-144.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:49 hypno -- I do want to do things the 'canonical way' 20:44:59 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:44:59 i want to do thins the 'canonical way' so that i do it just right. 20:45:18 did you type C-h t? 20:45:30 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:47:20 stipet [n=user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:48:17 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-30-138.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:48:27 emma: well, there are many "right ways" in the lisp world, and using emacs is just one of them. the commercial lisps have more newbie friendly GUIs. to learn the language, it doesn't matter. 20:48:51 many commercial lisps however tend to emulate Emacs in some way :D 20:49:36 thunk [n=user@74-130-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 20:49:46 p_l, the commercial Lisp have emacs-like editors that are as old or older than GNU Emacs 20:50:37 GNU Emacs is also only an 'emulation' of older Emacs implementations 20:50:50 is hemlock older? 20:51:15 lispm: GNU Emacs is quite different from original Emacs, I suspect only some keybingings match... 20:52:13 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 20:52:13 almost all Emacs implementations are quite different from the original Emacs 20:52:17 i suspect that something that hasn't changed is the sense of smugness over vi users 20:52:18 *stassats* used zmacs in mit cdr emulator, feels like home 20:52:42 though Hemlock claims to follow Zwei and the ITS/TOPS20 Emacs 20:53:03 ouch, ITS EMACS? :D 20:53:18 lispm: indeed, none of the modern emacsen is written in TECO :D 20:53:26 right 20:53:48 none is written in MacLisp, like Multics Emacs 20:54:03 or LML like Zwei 20:54:13 hypno, i guess I want to do it the old school way. 20:54:32 LispWorks's and CCL's editors are based on the Hemlock code 20:55:23 emma: in which case learning emacs shouldn't be faced with despair, but enthusiasm, right? :) 20:55:36 seangrove [n=user@206.18.3.87] has joined #lisp 20:55:48 hypno im doing my beset. 20:55:51 best * 20:56:07 -!- knobo [n=user@216-55-160.100710.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:56:26 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [] 20:56:53 emma: I recommend you feel free to use the menus while you're starting out. It might take you longer to be "fluent" in keybindings, but it'll also mean that you'll be able to fall back on menus if you must 20:57:29 seems like a good idea. 20:57:39 im working through the 'emacs tutorial' right now. 20:59:04 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:40 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:00:13 i recommend cheat sheets 21:00:20 and maybe a book 21:00:54 c-h m also helps to get an overview of a mode 21:01:09 sometimes its nice to have it printed for reference 21:04:42 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:04:52 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:05:39 faux [n=user@82.182.78.98] has joined #lisp 21:05:40 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 21:05:47 minion: slime.mov? 21:05:47 slime.mov: "using SLIME" video by Marco Baringer, http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 21:06:40 est [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 21:07:33 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@68.100.82.124] has quit [] 21:08:06 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:08:34 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:55 -!- antgreen [n=user@bas2-toronto06-1279473023.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:09:22 antgreen [n=user@bas2-toronto06-1279473023.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:10:09 rvirding [n=chatzill@h6n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:10:35 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 21:11:44 blitz_ [n=blitz@dslb-094-222-085-028.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:44 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:12:07 in the video he says 'the only way to use slime is to work with the latest cvs version' but i got my slime by doing sudo aptitude install slime 21:12:23 emma: don't do that. 21:12:26 -!- stipet [n=user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["sleepy times"] 21:12:29 don't do what? 21:12:36 emma: don't use apt-get to install anything lisp related. 21:12:37 i already did it :( 21:12:47 it's the only way i know how to do it. 21:13:05 install sbcl from a binary tarball, use clbuild to install slime etc. 21:13:14 minion: tell emma about clbuild 21:13:15 emma: please look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 21:13:35 what's the disadvantage of just using aptitude? 21:13:52 emma: common-lisp-controller 21:13:59 it's old and no one will help you 21:14:04 oh man 21:14:29 emma: not only that, but lisp packages will be removed from debian shortly. 21:14:34 i thought i was ready to go because i had emacs and slime installed 21:14:37 (no maintainer) 21:14:39 why? 21:14:43 oh that's crazy 21:14:48 no, it's sane 21:15:09 i dont mean this to sound critical but dont you guys want to make lisp easy for new people to discover and jump into? 21:15:21 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229173152.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 21:15:33 emma: no... i'd rather make lisp more useful to me than to others ;) 21:15:45 well, i have many things to do in my life besides lisp 21:15:57 <_Pb> emma: have you tried going through Practical Common Lisp? 21:16:06 <_Pb> I'm a lisp noob, I feel the same way 21:16:08 and believe it or not, the suggestion you don't use apt-get will make your life a lot easier. 21:16:11 i guess one of the reasons people learn lisp is for the same reason they use archlinux. It's more difficult so you get more feelings of superiority if you manage to survive. 21:16:22 -!- seangrove [n=user@206.18.3.87] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:16:25 archlinux is easy 21:16:29 emma: now now, that's bullshit. 21:16:49 people learn lisp because they want to program in lisp. If you think differently keep it to yourself. 21:16:49 <_Pb> man I'm so frustrated with learning scheme I think I may just go with CL 21:16:54 so i will uninstall emacs and slime ? 21:17:06 emma: emacs is fine... i use packaged emacsen 21:17:07 <_Pb> as backwards as that sounds 21:17:10 slime and swank 21:17:18 don't forget to purge, not just uninstall 21:17:18 _Pb, yes i have that book that's what im going to use as soon as I have slime properly. 21:17:21 skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has joined #lisp 21:17:40 just install clbuild and use the version of sbcl and slime that it will install for you. 21:17:42 okay i will purge slime and swank and sbcl? 21:17:45 <_Pb> emma: you dont have to use emacs/slime if they don't make sense to you 21:18:01 _Pb, its the canonical way 21:18:03 <_Pb> just use a command line lisp interpreter and whatever text editor you like 21:18:10 <_Pb> but it's not the only way 21:18:17 _Pb: using emacs and slime will make life a lot easier for emma, and for you. 21:18:21 emma: leave sbcl 21:18:28 stassats: no! 21:18:41 how are you going to build one? 21:18:43 stassats: that will leave c-l-c, and all hell will break loose! 21:19:04 stassats: install a binary from sbcl.org of course :) 21:19:14 well, almost the same 21:19:23 besides that it is already installed 21:19:43 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:19:48 dysinger [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:53 stassats: ok, i'll let you have that one... as long as the sbcl is only being used to build a new sbcl. 21:19:53 _Pb, it's kinda the same situation as with java .. (well, as far as i know at least...) .. while you _can_ code and re-factor java stuff in VIM (or similar..), it is generally not generally a good idea to do so .. it might seem simpler, but it ends up much more of a hassle in the long run (not that long really..) 21:20:03 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:20:10 er .. -generally* .. 21:20:46 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:20:51 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:20:54 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 21:20:55 okay i have sudo aptitude remove --purge slime sbcl 21:20:59 -!- Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:21:07 I still have emacs installed from the package. 21:21:10 dysinger [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:17 could someone help me out with what I should do now? 21:21:24 emma: that's cool. now install the sbcl binary release from www.sbcl.org 21:21:42 emma: also aptitude purge cl-swank 21:21:45 and install every version control system ever made, then get clbuild 21:21:59 <_Pb> lnostdal: true 21:22:07 (clbuild installs libraries from source control) 21:22:09 emma: that comment about Arch is a bit harsh... maybe it's true of some people, but the reason I use Arch (and the point of Arch in the first place) is to have a cruft-free distro. 21:22:32 VCSs you can get through APT 21:22:51 aptitude install -R git-core darcs cvs subversion mercurial 21:22:58 should be enough 21:23:06 Adlai, okay fair enough. I am sorry I said that. Clearly it is not true for all. I was just feeling frustrated. 21:23:42 well, complex things are always looking complex at the beginning 21:24:35 drewc, would this be the page to get it from? --- http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html 21:24:52 it's fine (although thanks for the apology, I don't like to be associated with people who actually do pick their platforms that way) 21:24:52 i could just take a binary and put it in some logical place? 21:24:52 yes 21:25:09 can't clbuild install sbcl? 21:25:23 emma: yeah, the install.sh will put it in /usr/local, which is a good place for it 21:25:31 Adlai: from source, yeah. 21:25:58 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 21:26:19 okay 21:26:21 drewc: ahh. clbuild does seem to focus on source code rather than binary distribution :) 21:26:27 drewc, why not /usr/bin ? 21:27:03 emma: because that's where debian puts things. /usr/local is for local user packages. 21:27:11 emma: afaik you can change the path, but /usr/local/* hierarchy is accepted standard for stuff from outside packages 21:27:13 emma: because you do not want to mix 3d-party stuff with your base userland? 21:27:48 oh so when you are installing in a non aptitutde way put it some place else 21:27:51 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:29:03 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [] 21:29:25 emma: you know, /usr/bin is also a kind of weird place (I'm not sure how old /usr evolved into /usr we know today - from /home to what it is now...) 21:30:10 i wish there were more logic and consistency. 21:30:11 it's a personal chooice, and the path differs with different systems. some admins/users prefer /usr/ as root for everything, others a separate directory, be it /usr/local, /opt, /sw, /usr/pkg or any other path. 21:30:39 one would think perhaps the directories would have suggestive names, and there would be some logical choice based on what's best. 21:30:40 <_3b> there is logic and consistency, it just depends on large amounts of history, so tends to not be obvious :) 21:31:05 I actually always thought that /opt was where you were supposed to put outside files 21:31:10 hypno: well, there is FHS 21:31:43 emma: orignally, /usr was what we now have as /home. having home directory hierarchy in /export was afaik introduced by SunOS 21:32:05 you do: tar -xvvzf file.tar.bz right? 21:32:06 well, "logic and consistency". in the world of unix, it's of course considered great with arbitrary text-configuration files (with different syntaxes, etc) all over the fucking place. 21:32:19 <_3b> p_l: when was /usr /home? i thought it was always 'not needed for booting' stuff? 21:32:31 to untar stuff you do tar -xvvzf is that right? 21:32:37 _3b: USeR 21:32:46 tar xf sbcl.tar.bz2 would do 21:32:54 and yes, some old systems I met had their home hierarchy there 21:32:54 emma: the z is only for gzipped stuff 21:32:57 oh 21:33:10 <_3b> p_l: Unix System Resources? (or is that an urban legend?) 21:33:12 that f is to show it is a file? 21:33:15 _3b: on old systems, /etc/ contains quite a lot of binaries 21:33:20 modern tar is clever and can unzip without z or j 21:33:54 _3b: that is also possible - hierarchy was a little screwed due to differences between systems :) 21:34:11 okay cool i have it untared and im in the directory. should i ./install.sh ? 21:34:23 yep 21:35:03 don't forget sudo 21:35:09 em@euler:~/installs/sbcl-1.0.29-x86-linux$ ./install.sh 21:35:09 bash: ./install.sh: Permission denied 21:35:30 read the README? 21:35:30 sh ./install.sh, or chmod it. 21:35:36 sudo sh install.sh 21:35:43 oh sh? 21:35:48 that was one I did not know. 21:35:58 i guess that invokes bash or something. 21:36:03 emma: that, or chmod +x install.sh; sudo ./install.sh 21:36:10 emma: can i suggest a basic linux/unix tutorial as well? 21:36:14 emma: bash involves sh. it's basic shell. 21:36:18 no, what p_l said .. you need root privileges to write to /usr/local/ 21:36:18 <[Jackal]> sh is sometimes sh, but mostly bash. 21:36:19 drewc, yeah sure 21:36:40 [Jackal]: on linux 21:36:49 that is working. 21:36:55 sudo sh ./install.sh 21:37:02 emma: http://www.linuxhq.com/guides/LUG/guide.html 21:37:14 emma: you can leave out the ./ if you're not trying to execute the file 21:37:24 [Jackal]: sh is never bash on my machines... it's a korn shell as it should be! 21:37:25 SBCL has been installed: 21:37:25 binary /usr/local/bin/sbcl 21:37:25 core and contribs in /usr/local/lib/sbcl/ 21:37:35 <[Jackal]> Solaris? 21:37:35 congratulations! 21:37:41 that wasn't so bad. 21:37:50 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:57 now i can use something called clbuild to create the other things? 21:38:13 now run aptitude install -R git-core darcs cvs subversion mercurial 21:38:34 don't forget sudo :) 21:38:43 <[Jackal]> Oh dear! ;> 21:38:47 well, emma used aptitude before 21:39:21 but is that the thing to get? git-core darcs cvs subversion mercurial ? 21:39:22 all those? 21:39:30 yes 21:39:30 yes 21:39:33 okay 21:39:54 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:40:03 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-78-230.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:40:35 Just out of curiosity why so many of those? dont they all have the same basic purpose? 21:40:51 and the -R means that it does not install recommends? 21:41:15 it does 21:41:17 <_3b> same purpose, but not interchangeable (at the end user level at least) 21:41:18 emma: yes to the second question... as for the first, blame those who don't use git. 21:41:25 *Adlai* ducks 21:41:58 *stassats* always runs with -R, because recommendations are sometimes too crazy 21:42:20 hmm... anyone here tried using cl-pack? It says it does packing just like perl does, but in perl pack( "N", 20 ) gives me '\0\0\0\24', and cl-pack gives me #(0 0 0 20) (if I do a string-to-octets, otherwise it's '^T')... 21:42:24 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 21:42:29 anyone know what's going on? 21:43:53 stassats, yeah ive found that also. Do you use Debian or Ubuntu too? 21:44:14 Debian 21:44:17 <_3b> thijso: printing the perl results in octal maybe? 21:44:17 are there a ton of different common lisp utilitites all spread out in all those different version control systems? 21:44:40 something like this, yes 21:44:41 yeap 21:45:21 and some even have no public repos 21:46:42 uhm... hhmm... _3b, never thought of that... 21:48:38 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@92.82.44.216] has quit ["Valete!"] 21:49:04 seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:49:43 I have installed all those version control systems 21:49:59 stassats, and drewc what should I do now that I have installed all those various version control systems 21:50:20 it would be cool if everyone would just use git or something. 21:50:25 follow instructions at http://common-lisp.net/project/clbuild/ 21:50:30 okay 21:51:24 has anyone ever thought of just putting all the stuff you need on git? 21:52:02 emma: there has been a lot of talk about a lisp distribution... and putting a bunch of libs in git is one approach. 21:52:02 emma: YES 21:52:03 well, what for? all those VCS are just one aptitude install away 21:52:13 -!- tkb [n=Miranda@64.181.9.176] has quit ["Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org"] 21:52:21 and with clbuild you don't see the difference 21:52:36 oh a lisp distribution of linux? That's a rather intriguing idea. 21:52:39 emma: however, most of us are too busy getting real work done, and clbuild works for the most part, so it's not too high on anyones priority list. 21:52:40 <_3b> stassats: would be ncie to have all of the history available for the cvs/svn projects (if not worth the effort of actually building a git mirror) 21:52:50 no, a lisp distribution of lisp. 21:53:10 look -- Im a super honest person. Im going to be very honest -- I dont need to learn any programming language for my career or anything like that. I am learing lisp because it feels 'special' and i like to be part of special things. 21:53:31 Xach: http://labs.core.gen.tr/repos/core-server/examples/blog.lisp i've fixed the example here. 21:53:35 a lisp distribution of lisp? what does that mean? 21:53:36 Xach: thank you for pointing that. 21:54:26 emma: a collection of lisp libraries that are known to work together, packaged in such a way as to ease installation and upgrading... like debian, only for lisp software. 21:54:36 interesting. 21:55:13 a lisp distro is to the CL specification as a linux distro is to POSIX 21:55:24 *drewc* nods at Adlai 21:55:36 it's an implementation of (most) of that spec, plus a bunch of (hopefully) useful stuff 21:56:01 -!- nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:56:37 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:56:53 drewc: hi. would it be possible to set up a stat-counter script on c-l.net which runs on the apache logs and creates per-project stats in a night batch? 21:57:48 _3b: that does seem to be it... 21:57:51 although for some reason I see "\206" (which seems to correspond with #( 194 134 ) in octets), while from perl I get '\216' for that part. 21:57:55 i did clbuild check and it noticed i dont have curl 21:57:59 those don't seem to map 21:58:02 should i apt-get curl ? 21:58:16 i'm using google analytics for the cl-dwim projects 21:58:22 Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:34 it produces some nice statistics with very little effort 21:59:02 ehu`: sure, entirely possible... and a good idea too. I don't have the time to do it, though... but i can give you any access you'd need. 21:59:09 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:59:13 im going to sudo aptitude install curl 21:59:25 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-208-118.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 21:59:29 drewc: I'll investigate if I need to create one myself or that we can use one from the debian repository. 21:59:36 -!- milanj- [n=milan@77.46.219.184] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:59:47 drewc: do we have a repository for any scripts that we create ourselves? 22:00:02 ehu`: i've had good luck with awstats, but i'm not sure it can separate by project like 22:00:28 <_3b> thijso: random guess says check for utf-8 interfering somewhere 22:00:55 hmm.. right.. or maybe my big blob of packing code has a bug... 22:00:56 ehu`: yeah, the 'clo' project contains all the custom scripts IIRC 22:01:13 metawilm [n=willem@g225021190.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:01:23 emma: probably a good idea. If that doesnt work, try 'apt-get libcurl' 22:01:28 ok. I was already looking at AWStats. Maybe it needs "adjusting" :-) 22:03:07 i have clbuild now but im not sure what im suppposed to do with it 22:03:12 do i now also have slime again? 22:04:00 ./clbuild install slime 22:04:02 i guess 22:04:08 okay i'll try it 22:05:00 i did that without sudo 22:05:06 something is happening 22:05:12 emma: there is documentation available both on the web and in the repo, and the ./clbuild --help as well. 22:05:12 bad decision 22:05:26 oh crap 22:05:28 stassats: why? 22:05:30 i was just doing what you said 22:05:30 zeroish` [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 22:05:53 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:05:57 drewc: clbuild under sudo? 22:06:16 stassats: is a bad idea... emma said 'without sudo', which is a good idea. 22:06:38 ok, reading better is a good idea 22:06:39 sorry 22:08:58 saikat_ [n=saikat@r253170035.resnet.cornell.edu] has joined #lisp 22:09:01 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:09:54 -!- sohail [n=sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:10:04 i seem to have installed slime... 22:10:19 does this mean i can go to emacs and do M-x slime and start it up? 22:10:25 does my .emacs have to be changed now? 22:10:58 <_3b> you can start emacs+slime from clbuild, or modify .emacs 22:11:08 hmm. I don't think AWStats can use our type of project setup. 22:11:09 okay 22:11:21 well, I need more investigation to be sure. 22:11:26 <_3b> './clbuild slime' will run it for you 22:12:15 ; SLIME 2009-08-31 22:12:15 CL-USER> 22:12:20 wow it seems that may have worked 22:12:23 astonishing 22:12:28 <_3b> './clbuild clime-configuration' will tell you what to put in .emacs if you prefer starting it separately 22:12:50 CL-USER> (+ 2 2) 22:12:50 4 22:12:50 CL-USER> 22:12:52 it works! 22:13:17 congrats :) .. lemonodor fame is just a hack away 22:13:18 <_3b> './clbuild slime-configuration' rather 22:13:53 emma: do try to avoid pasting random text to the channel, k? more hacking less noise! :D 22:14:10 okay got you :) 22:14:12 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@91.194.72.7] has left #lisp 22:14:46 emma: now, read PCL and next thing you'll know you'll be hacking lisp for a living 22:14:57 haha 22:14:58 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 22:16:06 Are there LISP-equivalents of atoi() strtol() ? 22:16:21 clhs parse-integer 22:16:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_parse_.htm 22:16:49 clhs princ-to-string 22:16:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_to_.htm 22:16:59 stassats, drewc you guys are quite nice and generous, thank you for walking me through that. It was not so bad and now i have all the newest lisp tools. 22:17:16 emma: no worries, enjoy the lisping! 22:20:00 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Success] 22:20:04 KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:42 elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #lisp 22:22:08 -!- tagac [n=user@119.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["/* */"] 22:22:41 if anybody is at all interested in the CLtL3 effort, i've produced a draft charter and i'm looking for feedback. 22:22:45 http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/cltl3-devel/2009-August/000017.html 22:24:41 Balooga annotated #86291 "Fixed in svn" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86291#2 22:25:04 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:25:09 http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/ 22:25:11 drewc: looks pretty cool. is there any existing material regarding concurrency and networking primitives? 22:25:12 wow, totally wow. 22:26:22 hypno: indeed... SBCL, AllegroCL, CMUCL, CCL, LW, etc ;) 22:27:05 hypno: to be completely honest, i don't think networking needs to be in there... if we have FFI and gray streams, networking is a library-level construct. 22:27:24 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 22:27:37 threads and concurrency, OTOH, require implementation support and are a hot topic. 22:28:24 Demosthenes: going through those lectures and translating to CL is a right of passage 'round these parts. :D 22:28:38 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 22:29:31 drewc: found them by accident 22:30:03 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A233F.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:30:21 it would be cool with some sort of "ring protection scheme" in CL. ie, that you can force functions/whatever to be executed with, say, monitoring, and perhaps no access to certain things. 22:30:40 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:30:57 <_3b> extensible/sandboxable reader would be nice as well 22:31:22 hypno: i think for cltl3 we simply want to define the low-level primatives and semantics... anything higher level goes in the library. 22:32:00 _3b: i'd though about adding one, but one can implement it without needing implementation support, so again heave it up to the library. 22:32:12 -!- metawilm [n=willem@g225021190.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 22:32:36 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 22:32:46 with CLtL3 we really want to define enough CL that a 'standard library' can be built. actually building it is left a an exercise :P 22:32:50 <_3b> drewc: needing to duplicate standardized features seems a bit bad though 22:32:58 with some sort of code walker, it should be possible to check integrity of certain forms as well? ie, it can be made with just standard CL? 22:33:12 <_3b> we could just as easily say you can add your own streams too :) 22:33:27 <_3b> or compiler, etc 22:33:37 _3b: not quite... but i get what you're saying. 22:34:31 <_3b> mainly just want some way to override interning, and handling of : , as opposed to an entire rewrite of the reader 22:34:45 <_3b> possibly with some more introspection 22:34:47 _3b: have you seen kaz's non-interning reader hack? 22:35:08 <_3b> drewc: possibly, haven't looked at the problem in a while 22:35:10 can we can override #\: can we not? 22:35:47 <_3b> i don't think you can implement the CL behavior of #\: from user code 22:35:50 _3b: basically he interns symbols into an anonymous package, and directives chose which symbols are actually interned into the currenty *package* .. see the recent thread on c.l.l 22:35:55 <_3b> (without implementing an entire reader) 22:35:55 drewc: at this moment, the thing I'm wanting ---- add an environment function that tells whether or not a pathname points at a directory (i.e., probe-directory...). 22:36:36 rpg: pathnames are getting a total makeover, talk to fe[nl]ix about that. 22:37:26 as far as i know, he's almost 'finished' with the pathname stuff.. it's likely in iolib if you want to have a look-see. 22:39:02 _3b: well, pjb has already implemented the reader for you :P 22:39:31 hypno: the ability to write a code-walker is something i want in CLtL3 as well. 22:39:38 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 22:40:38 good news, http://groups.google.com/group/core-server/browse_thread/thread/ac8d223519b2b540 22:40:52 drewc: isn't it possible todo with just ansi cl tho? 22:41:57 hypno: actually, i saw one on reddit that had an interesting approach... 'macroexpand-dammit'. But in general... no.. you need cltl2 at least to access the environment. 22:42:50 hypno: http://john.freml.in/macroexpand-dammit 22:43:03 haha, macroexpand-dammit. Nice name :) 22:43:22 oh, i see. i thought that would be fairly easy as opposed to actually putting restrictions on say interrupts, memory consumption, file handles, object creation, etc on defined forms. but that too i guess is hackable with a few macros. 22:45:19 benny [n=benny@i577A233F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:46:03 drewc: thanks. I'll have a look at iolib. later! 22:46:55 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:47:36 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@r253170035.resnet.cornell.edu] has quit [] 22:47:38 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:51:02 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:28 -!- Cassio [i=Cassio@151.61.94.223] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:54:17 sohail [n=sohail@CPE001839a305c5-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:55:29 rpg: (not (pathname-name (probe-file "/etc"))) ? 22:55:44 or something like that.... 22:55:55 needs a test for nil obviously. 22:57:45 filere [n=trent@unaffiliated/romani] has joined #lisp 23:00:06 saikat_ [n=saikat@128.253.170.35] has joined #lisp 23:04:07 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:04:46 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 23:05:38 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:06:02 could anyone take a look at this attempt at documentation and tell me if it seems sound to you ( drewc stassats .. ) -- http://club-ubuntu.org/blogs/em/getting-started-with-lisp-in-ubuntu 23:08:21 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:08:40 emma: i think you mean ./clbuild check for #6. Besides that, it looks fine. 23:09:34 morganb [n=user@wsip-98-188-196-29.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:39 drewc, you are right! I fixed it -- http://club-ubuntu.org/blogs/em/getting-started-with-lisp-in-ubuntu 23:14:10 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:15:02 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:06 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-1-48.w90-59.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:22:23 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 23:22:59 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:24:57 -!- hypno [n=hypno@195.43.248.109] has quit ["leaving"] 23:25:27 whoppix_ [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 23:26:37 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:26:48 alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:01 right... I was stupid... the error with my weird packed strings was in an earlier command sent to the socket... so a number of bytes from my command were lost because the previous command wasn't completed... duh! 23:27:45 (that, and a (pack "N" nil) gives 0 output, and for one param I needed 0 in the output...) 23:28:16 so, waaaayyy past bedtime, but getting closer to a (naive) interface to the sphinx search daemon... 23:28:23 gn 23:28:33 joevandyk [n=joevandy@98.117.141.171] has joined #lisp 23:28:34 -!- KevinFish [n=chatzill@98.208.14.225] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:29:02 how do i write a function that accepts a variable number of arguments in common lisp?: 23:29:17 &rest args 23:30:16 http://gigamonkeys.com/book/functions.html#rest-parameters 23:30:41 nice, thanks 23:33:17 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:35:16 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@dslb-094-222-085-028.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:35:58 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:17 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:37:45 blitz_ [n=blitz@dslb-094-222-085-028.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:42 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:39:28 -!- antgreen [n=user@bas2-toronto06-1279473023.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:39:38 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 23:40:34 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 23:40:34 given a list '(a b c), how can i get the following to happen? (foo a b c) ? 23:41:00 joevandyk: apply 23:41:02 clhs apply 23:41:19 specbot is dead... 23:41:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 23:41:53 Thanks. 23:42:02 <_3b> did you want (foo a b c) or (foo 'a 'b 'c) ? 23:42:19 _3b: (foo a b c) 23:42:31 <_3b> so a b c are variables you want evaluated? 23:42:33 then also use mapcar and symbol-value. 23:42:57 But it would have to be (*a* *b* *c*) since you can get dynamically only the value of special variables. 23:43:36 really what I'm doing is (format t a-string a-list) 23:43:47 joevandyk: with format, you can use ~? 23:43:59 (format t "~?" control-string arguments) 23:45:20 (format t "~A ~? ~A" 'before control-string arguments 'after) 23:46:34 <_3b> or maybe (format t "~@{~?~}" a-string a-list) 23:47:20 <_3b> (or maybe i'm confused) 23:48:22 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:48:28 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [] 23:49:29 dysinger [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:38 <_3b> ah, guess i was confused, ~? processes a list 23:54:15 -!- filere [n=trent@unaffiliated/romani] has quit [] 23:55:15 is there a well known irc bot that has been made in common lisp? 23:55:27 emma: minion 23:55:29 minion: are you a bot? 23:55:30 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 23:55:35 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Client Quit] 23:55:49 kind of neat how minion seems to not just be an info bot but kind of has some ai built in? 23:55:59 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:48 emma: simple eliza-like code, iirc 23:57:15 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.115.195.180] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:57:18 I was planning on writing a more advanced, coversational AI bot once 23:57:23 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.60.152] has joined #lisp 23:57:24 do any of you do artificial intelligence work? 23:57:53 *p_l* is second year student for now, with degree in CS&AI 23:58:23 p_l how plausible is it that one could make an IRC bot that would fool people on IRC into thinking it was a person? 23:58:37 not forever, of course, but for a while. 23:58:48 <_3b> depends on the people and the topic 23:59:16 it would just be neat to have a strong sense of personality. Not to literally pass the turring test. If you get me. 23:59:39 emma: turing test stopped being sensible ever since trolling became popular 23:59:58 <_3b> also depends on whether you rule out 'annoying' or 'insane' person