00:01:11 it doesn't look simple 00:02:49 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:19 Fin instance: "20090826", "2009-08-26", "20090826 151902 01" and "2009-08-26 15:19:02.89 Z-01:00" are all legal expresions in iso-8601 00:03:33 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:04:17 Handeling all the special cases is what makes it complicated and why regexp's actually simplify things 00:04:17 Is Dr. Christophe Rhodes who wrote this: http://www.advogato.org/person/crhodes/diary/132.html a regular poster on this channel? If so, what nickname does he use? 00:04:38 lat: Krystof and Xof 00:06:19 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 00:07:31 stassats, thanks. Two nicks in use at the same time. Interesting. 00:09:28 lat: I'm both pjb and matimago. 00:09:39 lat: beach is both spiaggia and plage. 00:09:44 i'm stassats and stassats` 00:10:42 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:10:50 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@78.116.11.105] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:10:52 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 00:12:41 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 00:12:47 kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 00:18:52 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-sfkjtzeexuemhwod] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:21:47 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:22:17 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:22:31 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:23:21 -!- nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:23:29 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 00:23:34 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@dslb-094-222-036-214.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:24:47 est: http://paste.lisp.org/+1UFT#1 that looks more simple to me 00:24:49 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-acqluxzfgzgyjbgq] has joined #lisp 00:25:04 sans correctness checking 00:25:47 s/:junk-allowed t// 00:27:11 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-187-246.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:27:49 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-239-99.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:28:13 Indeed you have no correctness checking and all you have is a sequence of numbers. But the wort part is it is ambigous. for instance is it a 1 the milliseconds field of the timezone field. 00:28:31 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 00:29:05 envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 00:29:38 -!- kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:30:02 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 00:31:06 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 00:31:52 That is "12:00:01.01" and "12:00:01 01" both would give '(12 0 1 1) 00:32:54 Yet the for the first .01 means milliseconds and the 01 in the seconds means GMT+1. 00:33:46 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 00:34:13 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 00:35:14 My function returns 10 values always and set's the fields to nil if they are not in the string. If the grammar is wrong it returns only one nil. (hardly ideal..) 00:35:33 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2DB3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:35:36 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-acqluxzfgzgyjbgq] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:40:02 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2DB3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:04 is 200908-06 acceptable? 00:41:09 By my syntax yes. But by ISO no. I've noticed it, but am not sure it is worth it to double the expression sizes for time and data to fix it. 00:43:17 But returning a plist might be neater. 00:43:22 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.118.9] has joined #lisp 00:44:15 I could then get rid of the rather ugly return-from.. 00:45:12 And drop the nil's 00:46:07 est: You could have a callback for the error case. 00:48:16 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-47-39.w90-59.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:50:58 I could, but I might want to make the date field optional.. It is not guarantied in all cases that it not being a date is a error. 00:51:57 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:52:18 http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/iso8601-date/iso8601.lisp?root=iso8601-date&view=markup 00:55:08 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h6n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:57:30 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C3F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:58:23 Thanks, that retuns a universal time though. And it looks even more complicated.. 01:00:16 blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 01:04:19 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.1.144] has joined #lisp 01:04:25 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.1.144] has left #lisp 01:06:06 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:06:24 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:38 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:07:05 Both versions cover only a subset of the legal options in iso-8601. Guess I'll mess with it some more. later.. 01:16:54 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:17:04 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:19:23 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslct130.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:21:25 hadronzoo [n=user@ppp-70-251-128-236.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:48 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-61-90-82-249.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:28:01 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["restarting emacs"] 01:32:17 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:33:35 Pepe_ [n=ppjet@78.114.134.123] has joined #lisp 01:33:41 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:34:34 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 01:34:40 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:34:48 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-214-24.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:37 hadronzo` [n=user@ppp-70-251-74-36.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:51 htk__ [n=htk___@188.3.225.158] has joined #lisp 01:44:37 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 01:44:58 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:34 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 01:46:09 -!- htk__ [n=htk___@188.3.225.158] has quit [Client Quit] 01:46:16 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2DB3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:46:41 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:53 -!- hadronzoo [n=user@ppp-70-251-128-236.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:48:23 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 01:52:07 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:53:18 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:57:34 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:58:40 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.225.35] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:03:10 -!- klepparii [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 02:03:24 -!- hadronzo` [n=user@ppp-70-251-74-36.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:03:44 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 02:04:04 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 02:06:08 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:06:30 -!- ace4016 is now known as afternet 02:06:42 -!- afternet is now known as ace4016 02:09:45 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:12:28 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.118.9] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:13:05 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [""ugrade time""] 02:13:52 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:18:23 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 02:19:33 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 02:20:19 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-16-90.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 02:22:33 -!- blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:23:49 -!- Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:24:51 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.26.229] has joined #lisp 02:24:56 greetings 02:25:12 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-105-177.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:25:58 i am getting weird behaviour with sbcl 1.0.30; when i try to load my project it just hangs. it worked just fine with a version of sbcl just previous to this 02:26:58 it's not even in my own project; sometimes it hangs while loading CHUNGA, other times during CLSQL-UFFI 02:29:04 Can you break into the debugger? 02:29:24 nope; no C-c or C-d; only C-z, then i have to killall sbcl 02:30:41 What if you actually use sbcl rather than banging your head into emacs? 02:30:53 that's all i am using 02:31:08 i even removed rlwrap; vanilla sbcl off the shell 02:31:28 Time to break out gdb, then. 02:31:59 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@adsl-75-34-100-218.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:32:15 rtoym: my problem could be solved by just down gradding to a previous sbcl version; i just thought this might be a known problem 02:32:23 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:32:44 You might also consider stracing it -- it sounds like it's stuck in a syscall. 02:32:57 -!- shrimpfish [n=fish@isacop.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:32:58 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:33:47 fusss: Yeah, I know. Sometimes I feel the same way about slime. 02:35:23 -!- krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-72-21.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:37:04 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:37:13 tvl [n=tudor@TSA.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 02:40:18 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-218-122.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:20 can't run under strace, crashed sbcl 02:40:27 [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.95.54.164] has joined #lisp 02:41:01 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:42:28 not crashed, but it's stuck in an oopsing loop; it says "Continuing with fingers crossed " and tries to die again 02:43:34 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 02:43:55 are there any critical changes between 1.0.23 and 1.0.30? 02:44:33 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:44:43 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 02:45:01 Sounds pretty bad if strace crashes sbcl. Sorry, I can't help. 02:45:30 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:45:37 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 02:45:49 i can strace 1.0.23 just fine, btw 02:46:47 Did you build it from source? 02:46:56 official binary 02:47:19 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 02:47:19 Could it be a problem with shared libraries? 02:47:41 trying to figure that out now, hold on 02:47:55 also checking time stamps to see if the core and binary are matching 02:51:47 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rnjhbwnembihnjik] has joined #lisp 02:55:02 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-31-104.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:12 Building from source might be the simple solution :) 03:02:33 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:02:48 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:03:57 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:07:17 -!- nasloc__ [n=vzloct_2@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 03:07:25 timchen1` [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has joined #lisp 03:07:35 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:46 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@24.136.230.181] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:10:09 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:12:22 et voila! :-) 03:12:50 i don't know what it was, but a fresh reinstall did the trick 03:13:16 that + find /usr/local/lib/sbcl -name *.asd -exec rm -rf {} \; 03:14:29 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 03:16:51 *fusss* etches this into his forehead: there is more than one asdf.lisp >_< 03:17:52 ShadowChild [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 03:22:17 krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-97-38.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 03:23:54 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:23:56 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-114.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:24:11 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-16-90.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:24:27 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-114.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 03:26:18 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 03:27:36 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:30:48 hefner [i=hefner@ppp-58-9-113-97.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 03:38:59 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 03:40:18 are there any caveats associated with SBCL's timeouts? 03:41:22 -!- laynor [n=laynor@93.107.86.56] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:46:43 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 03:47:15 logBot8316 [n=logBot@59.92.169.46] has joined #lisp 03:47:45 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:50:19 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 03:53:48 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-40-205.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 03:54:28 -!- [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.95.54.164] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:03:56 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-31-104.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:07:06 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.26.229] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:07:18 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 04:09:49 -!- krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-97-38.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:16:17 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 04:18:42 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:20:02 emma [n=d09db278@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-mgyjppfioizkulwo] has joined #lisp 04:20:07 good evening lispers 04:20:16 oh hi 04:20:22 gmane is SO awesome 04:21:58 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:22:35 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 04:24:44 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:31:44 -!- tvl [n=tudor@TSA.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:32:30 you know what i hate? people using conditions not being a subtype of ERROR with the ERROR operator 04:32:55 it's justified for OUT-OF-MEMORY-ERROR but not other stuff 04:33:11 It's justified that OUT-OF-MEMORY-ERROR isn't an ERROR? 04:33:27 wish #'ERROR automatically CHANGE-CLASS'd non-errors to a subtype of ERROR 04:33:38 Just assert the authors to death. 04:38:48 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:40:55 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:41:50 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 04:49:23 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit ["off"] 04:51:59 alexbobp [n=alex@adsl-75-34-100-218.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:43 -!- logBot8316 [n=logBot@59.92.169.46] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:06:22 Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-156-185.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:37 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:08:13 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:13:25 logBot5399 [n=logBot@59.96.36.135] has joined #lisp 05:15:02 I really admire you lispers 05:15:27 I haven't learned how to program in lisp yet. 05:15:58 It seems like always something isn't ideal so i don't get too far. 05:16:06 it takes all day just to figure out emacs 05:17:09 in my opinion your lisp community would be better off if someone could bravely make an application that would run slime or something like slime in an application more like dr scheme and ditch emacs 05:17:19 getting an emacs book might help you at that :) 05:17:30 emacs hurts me 05:17:47 psychologically, socially, and physically. 05:17:50 you should look at hemlock. dunno of its present state 05:18:39 okay 05:18:47 physical things can be solved with alternative key bindings and/or keyboard layout changes (ctrl-capslock swap) 05:18:47 have you ever seen dr scheme? 05:18:50 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:18:55 yeah. it's pretty 05:19:10 i have never met you but no doubt you are another brilliant lisp guy 05:19:22 why don't you make a 'dr scheme' but for common lisp 05:19:24 that would rock 05:19:36 dr scheme makes using/learning/writing scheme pretty fun. 05:19:37 i'm probably neither of those :) 05:20:31 and also, scheme was created for educational use. it's a whole lot simpler in many ways 05:22:20 learning curve with emacs is always hard. it's just that the same way lisp still has things the other languages are dreaming of, emacs does too. and developing new revolutionary stuff with emacs is easier than with any other 05:22:28 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-40-205.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:23:05 i don't know if some more experienced emacs dev would agree with me on this, though :) 05:28:07 guaqua: http://bc.tech.coop/blog/images/curves.jpg 05:29:29 oh well, it always goes to this :) 05:30:51 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-gsoktottoyfinfbh] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:31:28 is there any advantage to using asdf's :depends-on rather than :serial t? 05:32:20 (for source files; you still need :depends-on for depending on other systems) 05:32:32 xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-150-243.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:53 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 05:32:57 splittist [n=dmurray@85.5.55.63] has joined #lisp 05:32:58 morning 05:33:50 mornin', splittist. 05:33:51 Adlai: more consing 05:33:55 minion: chant 05:33:55 MORE CONSING 05:33:56 minion: chant 05:33:57 MORE CONSING 05:34:05 Adlai: hehe 05:34:41 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 05:34:57 seriously though... is there any reason to detail out the dependencies like that? 05:35:08 faster recompiling of the project, Adlai 05:35:20 hmm, I see. 05:35:26 a, b, c, d a change in A might only require for B to be recompiled .. not B, C and D 05:35:53 (..B is the only one using macros or inlined functions defined in A..) 05:35:58 alright, ASDF is smarter than I expected. Thanks. 05:36:15 mg4001 [n=mg4001@cpe-76-93-28-217.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:36:19 Fare: how's xcvb going? 05:36:21 i've got an idea! 05:36:23 ..at least this is how i understand this .. i think the goal with XCBD (or whatever.. *sigh*) is to keep track of these things automatically 05:36:26 replace car and cdr 05:36:27 XCVB* 05:36:35 so that the cdr is in the car and vice versa 05:36:53 weirdo, (defpackage :cltl3 .. ) & go :) 05:37:25 yo check this out 05:37:26 http://paste.lisp.org/display/42335/raw 05:37:36 weirdo: step 2: ??? 05:37:56 Adlai, step two: only the printer would know that they're swapped 05:38:28 but... why do it anyways? 05:39:02 just for kicks, i guess 05:39:12 but not worth it, it'd require changing all these compiler transforms, etc. 05:39:32 anyone using only one visible frame at a time? 05:39:43 are you using slime-selector or something else? 05:39:52 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-218-122.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:40:48 -!- logBot5399 [n=logBot@59.96.36.135] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:40:59 milanj [n=milan@79.101.180.194] has joined #lisp 05:41:03 logBot1385 [n=logBot@59.96.36.135] has joined #lisp 05:41:26 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 05:41:54 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest124 05:43:12 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-219-199.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:24 -!- mg4001 [n=mg4001@cpe-76-93-28-217.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 05:47:34 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-103-80.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:47:41 Good morning. 05:49:27 morning, beach 05:52:18 ace4016 [i=ace4016@76.87.84.207] has joined #lisp 05:52:19 -!- Guest124 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 05:56:23 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 05:57:12 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:58:34 tcr 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#lisp 06:27:17 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:27:53 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:30:28 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-114.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:31:53 -!- emma [n=d09db278@gateway/web/flash/eris.tuxhacker.org/x-mgyjppfioizkulwo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:33:32 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:36:03 HG` [n=HG@xdslgr010.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:36:07 benny` [n=benny@87.122.27.113] has joined #lisp 06:37:22 ASau [n=user@host167-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:37:38 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1B9C.versanet.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:37:40 -!- benny` is now known as benny 06:40:31 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:40:39 -!- xrt [n=xrt@adsl-99-50-120-162.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 06:43:51 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:44:05 hello 06:46:23 kenjin [n=kenjin@163.152.180.197] has joined #lisp 06:46:28 .. 06:46:46 -!- kenjin is now known as Guest56775 06:47:01 -!- Guest56775 is now known as kenjin_che 06:49:19 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:50:09 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:50:44 hello mrSpec, hello kenjin_che. 06:53:42 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:53:54 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 06:55:24 Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 06:55:34 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:55:57 good morning 06:58:12 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:01:47 hello mvilleneuve 07:05:18 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:11:33 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:12:38 -!- kejsaren 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has joined #lisp 07:45:08 Hi there. 07:45:16 Any Kanamit-guys here? 07:46:46 What is Kanamit? 07:47:31 Never mind. Found it with the help of Google. 07:47:57 Heh 07:48:28 "To Serve Newbies" is this channel's motto (: 07:48:36 Heh 07:48:40 That's good :D 07:48:59 also "no sarcasm, ever" 07:50:00 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 07:50:04 Well the kanamit page doesn't seem to be working properly... every generated link seems to just point at # 07:50:21 and "no pessimism on thursdays" 07:50:46 Mh 07:51:23 Well so no kanamit guys here, or at least not active atm 07:52:03 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:56:18 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 07:56:54 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6F5F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:59 gusl [n=user@128.189.187.206] has joined #lisp 07:58:43 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-205.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:58:49 hm, "..and GNU-Lisp are what we use.." .. isn't GCL quite out-of-date? 07:59:11 use where? 07:59:13 it could mean GNU CLISP 07:59:21 ohyeah, beach 07:59:43 araujo: Kanamit. 08:00:45 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:00:50 ah 08:02:36 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-181-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:41 how much mileage do CL implementations -actually- get from the eq/eql divide? Honestly. 08:06:15 you mean CL the language don't you? that distinction is part of the spec isn't it? 08:06:16 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 08:06:39 yes 08:06:56 I'm asking how much the implementations themselves manage to take advantage of the small difference. 08:07:17 -!- gusl [n=user@128.189.187.206] has left #lisp 08:07:48 i don't think it's up to them to do so 08:08:02 *Lycurgus* looks around pointedly 08:08:24 (disassemble (compile nil (lambda (x y) (declare (optimize speed (safety 0))) (eq x y)))) ;; looksie 08:08:46 changing that to eql results in a call to generic-eql 08:08:51 Lycurgus: the difference between eq and eql is that they don't guarantee a comparison between numbers and chars, for optimization reasons. 08:08:59 ..the eq one is just a cmp 08:09:05 hm 08:09:25 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 08:09:39 lnostdal: on CCL, using EQL is actually shorter :\ 08:10:06 oh no, nevermind 08:10:06 "shorter" doesn't have to mean faster 08:10:10 it jumps to a generic eql 08:10:14 yup :) 08:10:20 hm 08:10:45 eq is _much_ simpler .. it is just a CMP instruction 08:11:48 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:11:58 indeed 08:12:04 that's a pretty big difference. 08:12:29 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:15:06 fiveop [n=fiveop@92.229.174.183] has joined #lisp 08:16:35 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 08:18:04 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:18:37 sykopomp, right and guess who provides the optimization. 08:19:04 Lycurgus: God? 08:19:20 what is that? 08:19:21 pkhuong? 08:19:21 nikodemus? 08:19:21 Xof? 08:19:32 it's the trinity! 08:20:02 in the name of the pkhuong, the Xof, and the nikodemus, Parens. 08:20:24 and any other SBCL hackers? 08:20:30 (Xof fits quite well in there, actually) 08:20:54 *Lycurgus* frowns, then sighs and goes back to doin stuff. 08:21:27 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 08:21:29 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:21:38 we can celebrate Xofmas 08:22:04 indeed 08:24:59 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6F5F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:25:01 Demosthenes [n=demo@12.0.194.2] has joined #lisp 08:25:34 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 08:26:16 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 08:26:42 circular superclasses supermetaclasses supersuperblah .. what a mess 08:27:04 *lnostdal* mark all .. delete .. 08:27:07 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-76-249.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:27:10 ..try again :} 08:27:59 CLHS has just informed me that I've apparently been pronouncing CDR wrong. 08:28:20 How CDR you? 08:28:34 so i've got the new sbcl, and can use shebang now with --script (#!/usr/local/bin/sbcl --script) 08:28:51 I always say "Couder" (as I've heard other lispers call it), whereas CLHS specifies the pronounciation as ['k,duhr] 08:28:59 pronunciation* 08:29:01 except the noise is an issue. --noinform is supposed to suppress it, but when added to the shebang, drops me to a REPL 08:29:04 any ideaS? 08:29:18 Demosthenes: we're discussing serious issues here! please! 08:30:13 Demosthenes: that's strange. 08:32:15 i tried a few permutations, but no dice 08:33:18 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:34:29 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:34:52 Demosthenes: any more info? maybe distro/compile options/etc? 08:34:58 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:35:16 sykopomp: debian lenny, i just compiled it from scratch 08:35:24 i'm googling now too, but figured someone on here hit it first 08:40:10 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@131.173.18.185] has joined #lisp 08:41:26 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-181-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:42:35 also sbcl 1.0.29 08:45:50 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:55:07 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-127-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:35 dv_ [n=dv@85.127.111.103] has joined #lisp 09:02:58 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-181-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:29 egosh [n=Miranda@71.pool-157.kaluga.ru] has joined #lisp 09:13:19 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:17:46 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:23:47 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B28CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:12 -!- Soulman [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:28:43 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-214-24.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:30:10 -!- logBot9119 [n=logBot@59.96.36.135] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:30:43 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:33:18 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-181-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:34:42 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:34:49 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:38:13 -!- timchen1` is now known as nasloc__ 09:39:01 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:39:51 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6F5F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:20 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:40:58 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:41:50 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:49:19 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:50:48 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:50:58 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:52:58 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:53:04 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 09:54:17 Demosthenes: shebang lines can have only one argument 09:54:27 Demosthenes: --script disables the banner printing, iirc. 09:58:06 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:01:22 Demosthenes: yes, --script sets noinform in the runtime. are you really getting the banner with a --script? 10:03:41 weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:08:44 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:12:39 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:13:23 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@office.osgdc.org] has joined #lisp 10:13:36 ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 10:18:28 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:18:32 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:22:31 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483B84E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:08 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 10:23:31 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.138.160] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:24:31 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.75.65] has joined #lisp 10:25:19 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@131.173.18.185] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:27:00 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:31:54 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-77-173.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:33:35 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-197-130-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:35:17 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 10:35:44 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:35:45 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest78620 10:37:58 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 10:39:08 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:39:33 Well, good, I'm glad that my status as one leg of the trinity is finally enough to outrank luis 10:41:17 -!- Guest78620 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 10:41:42 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 10:42:41 anyone using cl-sql and sqlite (v3) on OS X? cl-sql docs ask for the sqlite.so file, but on OS X there's just a .dylib 10:43:03 dmiles [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:18 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:44:43 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 10:45:22 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:48:48 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:13 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B28CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:52:50 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-230.northland.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:21 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:54:26 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:56:39 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85.127.111.103] has quit ["Verlassend"] 10:58:46 tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:58:49 beach, herep 10:59:01 yep 10:59:37 *tic* points beach at the /query 11:00:22 tic: Interesting! 11:01:12 beach, I knew I had looked at it at some point, just was too long ago to remember when & what I got out of it... Did you have a nice day in Malmö, by the way? 11:01:13 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec`afk 11:01:17 -!- spec`afk is now known as mrSpec 11:02:11 tic: I did, thanks! 11:02:44 Good to hear! I had 24 fantastic hours down in Skåne. 11:03:25 tic: Excellent! My niece is pretty funny! 11:04:20 beach, yeah, she is indeed! And very kind. Hope me and mathrick's discussions in Polish didn't bother you /too/ much. :-) 11:04:29 nah! 11:05:43 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 11:05:49 When we left each other on the train station (aww, how romantic) we said there should be a hackathon some day, try to gather up more Scandinavian people. 11:06:08 tic: I like that idea! 11:06:14 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 11:06:24 -!- seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:06:29 timchen1` [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 11:07:04 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 11:07:31 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-204-209.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:07:51 beach, and also, thanks for bringing up the subject of thesii(?). I'm seriously thinking about resuming & finishing it. Gives me both relief from the burden of not having it done, and a real Lisp project at the same time. 11:08:17 Oh, sure! That's what I am paid for! :) 11:08:25 *laugh* 11:13:37 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:31 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:16:29 woodz [n=woodz@host90-152-51-38.ipv4.regusnet.com] has joined #lisp 11:16:46 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:17:26 laynor [n=laynor@93.107.86.56] has joined #lisp 11:19:07 ltriant_ [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 11:19:07 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-230.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:19:29 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:19:39 -!- ltriant_ is now known as ltriant 11:21:36 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 11:25:44 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.249.131] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:26:50 tic: *theses 11:27:09 ii is never a correct plural unless it's masculine nound ending in -ius 11:27:19 which means pretty much radius and that's it in English 11:29:12 genius..? 11:29:14 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:29:18 I'm pretty sure I've seen radiuses before 11:30:35 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:30:36 but I guess 'ii' is used as a plural by folks who think they learnt a bit of latin or italian, and think the word isn't 'integrated' in english yet. 11:31:24 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:35:45 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 11:36:49 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rnjhbwnembihnjik] has left #lisp 11:37:39 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:37:41 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:39:58 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:41:14 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 11:49:19 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-114.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:50:19 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-47-39.w90-59.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:51:24 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 11:52:30 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:41 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has left #lisp 11:53:54 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:15 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:55:53 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has left #lisp 11:56:15 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:29 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has left #lisp 11:56:35 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:00 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 12:00:39 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:03:51 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:05:40 dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:53 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-219-199.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:07:17 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:07:20 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 12:07:27 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:07:54 -!- kuwabara1 [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.net] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 12:08:03 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:08:07 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 12:08:45 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-219-199.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:56 morning 12:09:09 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-73.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:11 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:12:06 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Client Quit] 12:14:58 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-31-104.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:33 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 12:16:42 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:20:48 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:21:06 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:21:29 Xof: should I be worried? What does 'outrank' really mean? 12:22:08 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-120-196.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:23:30 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 12:23:33 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.123.206.101] has joined #lisp 12:23:43 hello 12:24:02 Hello. 12:24:09 hi gigamonkey 12:25:09 frito [n=keithman@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 12:25:52 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 12:26:02 third_trial [n=hide@PPPa287.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:27:06 minion: logs 12:27:06 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 12:31:19 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 12:31:54 I just got an email from a fellow telling me he was going to "dispose" of PCL, never by another book by me, and tell all his friends never to buy a book from me because I didn't respond to an email he sent me 15 hours ago. 12:32:08 LOL 12:32:10 I should have sent him here. 12:32:41 gigamonkey: that guy needs serious LARTing 12:33:13 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-73.northland.net] has quit [Success] 12:33:48 Is there a stocastical process library in common lisp? I want it. 12:33:48 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 12:34:13 Sometimes there is, sometimes there isn't. It's random. 12:34:36 boo 12:35:31 Thank you, thank you--I'm here all the week. 12:37:33 CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.42.233] has joined #lisp 12:38:14 gigamonkey: i have a layer above vecto that i use for pretty much everything vecto-related these days. i haven't written "raw" vecto in a while. 12:39:07 unfortunately it's not really anywhere near ready to share, it's a ball of mud of random stuff i threw together. it has stuff points, rectangles, colors, etc, and associated random operations on them. 12:39:43 Xach: maybe you should make a stack-based language out of it with a catchy name 12:41:52 vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 12:42:38 -!- tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 12:42:48 Prescripto? 12:43:04 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-204-209.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:43:19 -!- kenjin_che [n=kenjin@163.152.180.197] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:49:31 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 12:50:41 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@85.5.55.63] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1"] 12:54:33 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:56:33 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 12:57:33 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 12:59:34 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:20 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:02:57 Xach: yeah, I'm tempted to take my on crack at an ADW-CHARTING style lib. 13:03:33 Have you seen my latest chart. Not much new but more like the exemplar in that it has two data series. 13:03:46 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-144-33.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:03:52 i've thought about that too, but it seems to me that the hardest bit is making it relatively beautiful by default 13:03:57 the google charts aren't bad in that regard 13:04:03 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/caw-sales-ranks.png 13:04:05 gigamonkey: yeah, looks nice. 13:04:12 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 13:04:17 -!- third_trial [n=hide@PPPa287.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:06:21 Still chartjunk though since I haven't labeled anything. 13:07:00 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-77-173.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:08:59 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-77-173.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:13:47 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:15:16 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 13:15:43 beach: are you around? 13:18:12 tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 13:18:50 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:19:56 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #lisp 13:20:06 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-187-246.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:20:09 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 13:22:11 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:45 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:27:16 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:28:02 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:03 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 13:28:53 girzel [n=user@123.121.249.131] has joined #lisp 13:30:49 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 13:30:51 rpg [n=rpg@74-44-13-148.br1.aurr.mn.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:59 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:36:09 -!- dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:37:16 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:14 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 13:41:56 phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 13:44:49 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:45:47 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:46:17 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 13:47:30 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.42.233] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:49:06 gigamonkey: oh please do. gnuplot is a PITA. 13:50:35 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:51:34 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:51:39 Xach: now with labels! 13:52:21 Xach: do the fonts on my chart look funky because they're anti-aliased. Or because they're not. Or something else. 13:53:43 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 13:56:02 -!- frito [n=keithman@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:56:15 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-31-104.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:56:27 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:56:54 gigamonkey [n=user@99.58.31.104] has joined #lisp 13:57:08 gigamonkey: combination of anti-aliasing, low-resolution, and no hinting 13:57:24 Any way to fix any or all of those? 13:57:33 gigamonkey: some fonts look better than others at low resolution, regardless of hinting. try different fonts? 13:58:04 Ah. 13:58:36 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-33-174.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:59:42 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:00:42 i haven't considered hinting support yet 14:01:33 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:03:07 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:08:42 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has joined #lisp 14:08:46 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:23 ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 14:12:12 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:34 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 14:12:35 morning 14:13:05 weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:14:26 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 14:15:22 Morning. 14:15:33 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 14:15:35 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-47-39.w90-59.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 14:15:53 splittist: I assume you are splittist on Twitter? 14:17:36 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-197.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:18:15 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 14:18:16 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 14:18:20 Greetings. 14:18:54 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:19:19 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:19:57 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:26:01 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-219-199.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:26:11 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 14:27:13 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:27:30 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:29:04 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.209.49] has joined #lisp 14:29:17 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 14:29:27 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 14:29:43 gigamonkey: yes 14:30:37 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-207.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:32:41 -!- ASau [n=user@host167-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:32:45 why do GFs only use class specializers and not type specializers? isn't SUBTYPEP enough? 14:33:12 or is it that SUBTYPEP isn't deterministic enough between implementations? 14:33:29 -!- HET3 is now known as HET2 14:33:48 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:33:54 Heh my initial expansion of GF was girl friend. 14:34:01 HET2 [n=diman@131.251.176.98] has joined #lisp 14:34:11 tmh: more lisping 14:34:16 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:34:20 (integer 10) and (integer 50), what should be called first? 14:34:40 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.123.206.101] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:43 tmh: you need to stop socializing 14:35:09 Xach: Again, are we talking about coding? 14:35:17 tmh: coding at work 14:35:57 *tmh* hands Xach the "Gratuitous Plug of the Day" award. 14:36:50 stassats, if they both match, (integer 50) is more specific 14:36:50 Not gratuitous - Xach's on commission 14:37:00 how come? 14:38:00 stassats, it's more specific since it matches less possible values 14:39:01 that's a bad reason. it's more specific since it's (i 50) is a subtype of (i 10). but what about (i 20 30) and (i 25 35)? 14:39:20 i see 14:40:37 hmm in clos specializers if two values match, one must be a subtype of the other 14:40:44 s/values/specializers 14:41:07 jsnell: what about signaling conflicts on that? :-) 14:41:12 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 14:42:39 btw, can user code specialize on CLASS-OF? 14:42:53 -!- vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:43:18 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 14:43:21 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:44:12 oh wait, it's a function. what a bummer. 14:45:28 just forward to another method that takes an additional argument, weirdo 14:47:42 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:48:32 p_l, one would have to know whether an instance could exist that matches two specializers 14:48:52 not just for numeric classes, but for all complex type specifiers 14:49:00 manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6BAE0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:16 SATISFIES is a roadblock, but even with SATISFIES out of the way, it would be hard 14:49:39 weirdo: are you referring to complex in the general or numeric sense? 14:49:50 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:13 tmh, complex as in "hairy", not sqrt -1 14:50:53 compound type specifiers? 14:51:07 weirdo: Oh, in that case, apply Occam's razor. 14:51:55 what do you mean? reduce the complexity of specializers? 14:52:33 weirdo: I meant a little humor. 14:52:57 hairy, razor, *rim shot* 14:53:00 -!- tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:54:08 fiveop_ [n=fiveop@g229174183.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:55:08 nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 14:55:23 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 14:56:05 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@99.58.31.104] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:56:45 -!- fiveop_ [n=fiveop@g229174183.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:56:45 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@92.229.174.183] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:56:52 Test... 1.. 2.. 3... Is this thing on? 14:57:13 tmh: looks that way. 14:58:17 Alright, well I'll be here through the weekend, don't forget to tip your waitresses. 14:59:03 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229174183.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:59:14 tmh: Depends on the country you're in. 15:00:54 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslgr010.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:02:34 beach: I'm starting to get some results from my new type inference code 15:03:52 some correct results, I should add :) 15:04:24 great! 15:04:39 mvilleneuve: Is this something that will be rolled into, for example, SBCL? 15:05:54 tmh: no, it will be for a Lisp dialect that is not CL - and SBCL probably already does a much better job at this than I could ever do 15:06:25 (wondering about the correctness of the sentence above...) 15:06:52 mvilleneuve: is A-OK 15:07:03 skeptomai [n=cb@c-67-170-103-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:44 mvilleneuve: I understood what you meant. I was just curious if you were doing research to get us closer to the mythical "sufficiently advanced compiler". 15:08:35 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6F5F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:08:50 sufficiently smart 15:09:14 tmh: I'm afraid that for this task I'm not sufficiently smart myself :) 15:09:28 HG` [n=HG@xdslgr010.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:10:06 tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 15:10:15 isn't SBCL sufficiently smart already? 15:10:23 no 15:11:17 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:12:45 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:12:45 jlf` [n=user@adsl-76-253-93-71.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:03 ejs [n=eugen@116-109-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:15 -!- prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:13:17 hmm these type inference errors in clim 15:13:29 stassats: howso? 15:13:39 i thought it was a bug in the actual application, since i tried compiling years-old scigraph 15:13:41 it seems to be pretty smart about numeric code at least 15:13:57 -!- tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Client Quit] 15:14:11 q2 15:14:14 oops, wrong window 15:14:18 mathrick: Sufficiently Smart Compiler goes for more stuff than just numeric calculation. Try writing SSC for EPIC architecture :D 15:14:24 because it doesn't do everything what could be done 15:14:37 stassats: oh, I meant the other "sufficiently" :) 15:15:10 I meant "there are areas in which SBCL approaches the mythical sufficiently smart compiler already" 15:15:25 p_l: EPIC is what exactly? 15:15:37 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:15:43 well there are lots of things sbcl doesn't implement which are pretty basic 15:15:51 like common subexpression elimination 15:15:52 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 15:16:43 GCC is even smart enough to rearrange arithmetic with variables to make it use less division, etc. 15:17:30 though GCC isn't a particularly good compiler overall 15:17:31 mathrick: explicitly parrallel 15:17:40 ah 15:17:46 like IA64 15:17:53 GCC is slow like hell 15:18:04 and its frontend and backend are tightly coupled for religious reasons 15:18:44 hehe 15:18:45 lisp could use more love, but it's not like newbies that just read PCL could become compiler hackers overnight 15:19:14 weirdo: PAIP is good introduction to compiler writing with CL, I guess :D 15:19:34 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B28CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:36 well norvig said writing macros implementing other languages only works to a degree 15:19:49 kiuma [n=kiuma@host148-131-static.28-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:19:59 as the CL compiler isn't smart enough to perform optimizations relevant to the domain of the implemented language 15:20:02 weirdo: I meant compiling, not just macros 15:20:10 I think someone should implement the algorithms described in Muchnick's book as a Lisp library, but so that it could be used for other languages as well. 15:20:22 *stassats* curses slow cvs on cl.net 15:20:48 stassats: I'd curse any CVS wherever 15:20:56 would it be hard to embed SDL or mplayer in clim? 15:21:10 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-31-104.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:22 beach: what book is that? 15:21:33 mathrick: http://www.amazon.fr/Advanced-Compiler-Design-Implementation-Muchnick/dp/1558603204 15:21:52 weirdo: http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/uims-clim/toy-story.jpg 15:21:53 mathrick: what mvilleneuve said! 15:22:11 -!- mogunus [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:22:21 mogunus [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:21 splittist: So do you have a kid on the way or did I misunderstand your tweet? 15:22:59 -!- ejs [n=eugen@116-109-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:23:00 gigamonkey: http://www.taptaptap.com/blog/media/convert-1-0-1-in-review-holy-shit/DailySales.jpg is another style you could try! 15:23:19 beach: but he did so in a funny language! 15:24:06 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:24:35 Xach: actually, my next thought was to overlay a vertical bar chart showing each time Coders at Work was tweeted, with the bar height showing the number of followers. 15:25:26 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 15:25:30 mathrick: Yes, so it will all have to be translated to a more sane one, like Common Lisp! 15:26:29 gigamonkey: nice 15:26:51 dv_ [n=dv@83.64.248.68] has joined #lisp 15:26:54 beach: I meant french, but yes :) 15:27:07 oh, right 15:27:28 gigamonkey: have one approaching 2nd birthday, so on the runup to hosting 15:27:31 mathrick: Ah! 15:27:33 mathrick: you're right, I'm sorry 15:27:44 mvilleneuve: nah, don't sweat 15:27:51 it's just an in-joke of sorts 15:28:06 mathrick: replacing the .fr with .com in the url works 15:28:27 I think whenever something is described as "both a science and an art" it means, "this involves math but we're not sure how" 15:28:31 beach: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CupN28y-K24 <-- this is the video I promised 15:28:57 -!- carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:29:03 gigamonkey: hmm, that breaks for the bottom case, as math is also a science and an art 15:29:08 carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has joined #lisp 15:29:16 ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:29 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 15:29:52 -!- phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 15:29:55 mathrick: I shall have to wait and watch it until I boot and connect my laptop, because I don't have a good Flash player on this one. 15:30:14 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslgr010.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:30:16 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@c-98-223-251-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 15:30:20 sure, it's not going anywhere I believe 15:31:19 *beach* goes to prepare food for tonight. 15:35:57 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 15:37:55 do you hackers use SQL? 15:38:07 weirdo: I use SQL 15:38:10 or is there something comparable that doesn't suck? 15:38:29 weirdo: this is a trick question 15:38:33 all software sucks. 15:38:44 i have a problem with SQL's implicit locking and transactions 15:39:02 when i commit something and someone started a transaction earlier they see my updates, right? 15:39:11 weirdo: no 15:39:30 weirdo: depends on transaction isolation level. 15:39:57 so what p_l says, no, that's not right (: 15:40:26 now that's something. i'm ashamed i started my misadventure with SQL from MySQL 15:40:35 but that was many years ago 15:40:36 if you're using sensible RDBMS, transaction should operate within state as it was when BEGIN was issued (with various optional levels of locking - you might lock state per row, for all used rows?, for whole database, for table etc.) 15:41:08 (note that RDBMSes don't support all isolation levels) 15:41:21 how about a hypothetical situation? 15:41:43 two users do the same thing. they start a transaction, read from a few tables, then update them and commit 15:41:58 the first user has read all tables and started updating 15:42:36 the second user is only halfway done and when he reads the table, it's already been updated by the first user 15:42:49 weirdo: it wasn't updated yet - update happens on COMMIT 15:42:54 i assume locking only works for UPDATE, so he doesn't get blocked 15:42:57 RDBMSes seems to me one of the areas in programming where the gap between theory and practice is most painfully wide. 15:43:28 p_l, so he does a commit. but the second user already read a first few tables from before the commit happened 15:43:33 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-muoklpgeawsrymyf] has joined #lisp 15:43:35 weirdo: again, depends on isolation level. 15:43:35 and the remaining tables after the commit 15:43:39 -!- ShadowChild is now known as lukjad007 15:43:45 -!- rpg [n=rpg@74-44-13-148.br1.aurr.mn.frontiernet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:43:53 read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolation_(database_systems) 15:43:58 the rdbms shouldn't allow the second user to get a transaction on a locked resource. 15:44:04 Depends, also, on whether the data the 2nd user read was touched by the fist user's tx. 15:44:18 SERIALIZABLE is not the default in most dbs 15:44:21 i'll have to read the pgsql manual completely 15:44:25 Where "touched" depends on the locking granularity. 15:44:34 what i also don't like in SQL is its syntax 15:44:39 pl/sql looks like cobol in every aspect 15:44:48 but that applies to even simple SELECT queries 15:45:01 i wish we would be discussing stm. 15:45:10 they'd look way better if they were nested and used quasi-pattern-matching syntax 15:45:37 obLisp: Postgres was originally written in Lisp. 15:45:39 so instead of writing: (select (foo bar) (from foo bar) (where (equal (bar-of foo) bar))) 15:45:53 also http://www.postgresql.org/docs/8.2/interactive/transaction-iso.html 15:45:55 Apparently the migration to C entailed running a Lisp->C conversion and living with the result. 15:46:29 note that *usually* you don't actually need the guarantees of serializable. 15:46:35 i wonder if the lisp code base is still around. 15:46:55 hmm, i can't figure out better syntax ATM 15:48:24 foom: Why not deconstruct it so that you can write (from foo (where ... (select foo bar))) ? 15:49:00 hm cant we replace select by map and where by filter? 15:49:14 Zhivago: I think you're asking the wrong person. I have no interest in that subject. :) 15:49:25 Ah, weirdo. 15:49:55 void: Lazy evaluation would make that easier. 15:50:35 that's job of IO monad 15:50:49 Why, in the name of all that is holy, doesn't the Twitter API use iso 8601 date format or a UTC or something. 15:50:57 im assuming sql server is remote, of course. 15:51:01 Developed by americans? 15:51:42 implementing lazy evaluation by code thunks is one thing, implementing it efficiently is another 15:51:50 Easy there, fella! 15:51:57 ejs [n=eugen@211-51-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:37 I'm sorry -- I mean "by the people who brought us month/day/year date notation." 15:53:10 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.123.206.101] has joined #lisp 15:53:21 *p_l* considers month/day/year format to be fine example of human lack of logic doubled through idiocy and stupidity :> 15:53:43 europeans typically use day/month/year 15:53:52 but only nerds use year/month/day 15:54:20 what's the significance of months and weekdays, anyway? they're completely arbitrary 15:54:36 year and day makes some sense from astronomical perspective 15:54:58 One again consensus is more important than intelligence. 15:55:02 weirdo: i wish you were in my solar class. 15:55:08 heh. 15:55:20 weirdo: don't months make sense from an astronomical perspective? 15:55:43 (it's the week that seems the odd man out) 15:55:45 They would if they followed the cycle of the moon or something. 15:56:47 the months have arbitrary number of days because they were named after some vain kings who wanted to have more "cred" than other such kings, so they increased the length of "their" months arbitarily 15:57:08 so february hsa only 28 days for no reason, same for the 30/31 alternation 15:57:28 weirdo: I'd rather say that europeans keep endianess normal - I have seen both day/month/year and year/month/day in use 15:57:29 A six day week would give 60 weeks per year, which has a lot of factors, but 52 isn't too shabby, either. 15:57:33 -!- ejs [n=eugen@211-51-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:57:34 -!- jlf` [n=user@adsl-76-253-93-71.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:57:50 weirdo: actually, ~28 days is based on lunar month, rest is modding it to fit the year properly 15:58:04 http://www.pantheon.org/miscellaneous/origin_months.html 15:58:22 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has quit [] 15:58:52 wonder what will they do to the time measurements when earth changes its spin or its orbit deteriorates 15:58:54 interestingly enough, modern japanese rarely uses old names of months, keeping to numeric 15:59:04 but it's not like we have much time before sun becomes a red dwarf 15:59:35 weirdo: That's the case across all of east asia. 16:00:22 The hijri calendar is also more closely lunar that the gregorian 16:00:41 weirdo: we are on good way to count time in signed numeric count of seconds based on some arbitrary moment, which I suspect will be 1970-01-01 00:00 :> 16:00:46 The calendar doesn't really matter as long as there is consensus. 16:01:07 and lisp y2k isn't 2^32, it's 2^29! 16:01:15 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:02:18 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-47-39.w90-59.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:05:35 weirdo: more like 2^35 ;-) 16:06:53 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-101-220.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:55 so february hsa only 28 days for no reason, same for the 30/31 alternation <-- actually, no 16:07:03 it's because it used to be the last month 16:07:09 which is also why it's leap 16:07:51 also, calendar was (and still is) important for farming 16:07:54 p_l: Japanese calendar is lunar, so the old names simply mean something else than numerics 16:07:54 tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 16:08:28 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B28CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:08:39 mathrick: I know, though some names were pretty funny :) 16:08:49 With the imminent* arrival of pervasive augmented reality we can all live with our own calendars and leave the machines to tally the consensus. (* Not really.) 16:09:05 (though I recall only something about "Kannazuki") 16:09:10 http://www.google.com/trends?q=lisp 16:09:18 anybody know how to compare it with something else 16:09:19 ? 16:09:38 splittist: Augmented Reality, no, but built-in computers and other augmentation? sure :-) 16:10:39 kenpp [n=kenpp@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 16:11:56 guille_ [n=user@193.Red-81-37-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:58 hi 16:12:02 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@host148-131-static.28-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:12:32 http://www.sys-con.com/node/934716 16:12:38 i s'pose they're talking about a different lisp 16:12:48 v0|d, there's not much to be had about lisp through google 16:12:51 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:13:08 there's cliki, c-l.net, various hackers' sites 16:13:10 yes 16:13:18 but google doesn't really return relevant results 16:13:21 neither does wikipedia 16:13:37 i observe that most blogger have quit 16:13:41 it is interesting. 16:13:43 i'd write some wikipedia articles but the anal-retentive bunch would delete them in an instant 16:14:04 jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.101] has joined #lisp 16:14:16 someone said re Go bloggers that only amateurs blog 16:14:20 I don't know. I usually get a good response by writing "The above paragraphs are wrong." on their pages. 16:14:44 weirdo: that's because there are enough amateurs to blog. 16:14:50 but when we have no blogs about lisp 16:14:54 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:56 somebody has to. 16:15:00 i have a blog about lisp 16:15:01 :-) 16:15:11 rly? where? 16:15:18 http://foobiebletch.wordpress.com 16:15:51 oh nice. 16:15:58 but it's no fun, just like the channel, people call me on my BS every. frakking. time. 16:16:16 in a perl community i'd get away with it every time 16:16:33 hm 16:16:46 but lisp isn't dying 16:16:50 i wonder if lispers are lazy to blog or to install a bog. 16:16:54 do you know many people who grok lisp and leave it? 16:16:57 s/bog/blog. 16:17:13 once someone groks lisp, they won't leave it till the grave 16:17:36 can this be said of java, perl or any other mainstream language? 16:17:39 trends go down wrt. pretty much all programming languages 16:17:53 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:17:58 heh, mebbey because everyone's using wikipedia now 16:18:03 Well, a number have moved from lisp to haskell. 16:18:42 right. 16:18:48 haskellers are heading very fast 16:19:09 i once read an ebook about haskell and literally half of the book was about the type system 16:19:42 i mean, some people want to actually program and not just appease the compiler 16:20:03 which ones, Zhivago ? 16:20:40 too bad no one's writing down lisp lore 16:20:46 weirdo: thats a very different story. 16:21:16 kpreid for instance. 16:21:22 afair. 16:21:27 Well, there are some that I know -- but not regulars here, and you'll see a lot of people who used to do reserch in lisp have moved on. 16:21:54 yeah, java sure is nice 16:22:00 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:10 i saw/heard of people implementing complex programs in just a few lines of haskell 16:22:18 but i couldn't understand the code, since i don't know the language 16:22:18 Just look at Kiczales. 16:22:28 research, if done, nowadays seems to be in various strongly-typed FP, or in monstrosities running on Java :P 16:22:50 kiczales even deigned to java, though 16:23:09 I like the quote about AspectJ and Lisp :D 16:23:17 And people are actually using AOP :) 16:24:00 hm it's obvious that after the haskell bing-bang, lisp just lost a lot of rant. 16:24:16 of course this does not mean haskell will be successful. 16:24:17 ENOPARSE 16:24:40 v0|d: Lisp got *incredibly* bad press that is still hard to remove 16:25:09 right i've been reading erann gat 16:25:09 the only comparable languages with regards to PR are COBOL and FORTRAN 16:25:30 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:25:35 because most of the truly horrible stuff is long dead 16:25:55 well, maybe except MUMPS :P 16:26:30 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 16:27:20 it's not so bad, really 16:27:23 *gigamonkey* is happy that Unicode does seem to be getting widely used. 16:27:41 i started a toy project and here's how :depends-on looks like: (#:cl-perec #:fandango #:cl-ppcre #:puri #:drakma #:closure-html #:trivial-gray-streams #:usocket #:trivial-timeout #:babel) 16:27:46 and widely misused? 16:28:05 lisp has quite a few libraries and i only had to implement timeouts for drakma 16:28:11 besiria [n=user@195.251.214.184] has joined #lisp 16:28:35 gigamonkey, americans are still widely ignorant of character sets, though 16:28:37 yeah, both sbcl, postgresql and http/web-stuff in "utf-8 mode" makes life easy 16:28:52 "easy" 16:28:55 heh 16:29:08 i once worked on an ncurses program and an american developer had no clue on how to implement unicode because he never saw any diacritic characters 16:29:20 milanj [n=milan@79.101.180.194] has joined #lisp 16:29:31 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslfj023.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:29:32 unicode considered harmful. goto babel 16:30:06 weirdo: you should try core server 16:30:12 -!- woodz [n=woodz@host90-152-51-38.ipv4.regusnet.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:30:14 weirdo: if you are doing web. 16:31:05 works-for-me, Fade .. even IE handles utf-8 proper, at least wrt. norwegian characters 16:31:16 actually during ucw time, i've been very happy to see ppl doing webdev in lisp. 16:31:19 Xach: yep, all the "; loading" and "; registering" noise each time. 16:32:04 i've never used babel .. just sb-ext:octets-to-string & co. 16:32:15 v0|d, what's core server? 16:32:24 weirdo: http://labs.core.gen.tr 16:32:34 weirdo: presumably he lived in some part of America sealed off from even Spanish-speakers :) 16:32:46 otherwise, he should be familiar with the n-squiggle thing 16:32:50 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:32:53 aka massachussetts 16:32:57 v0|d, i don't have any problems with unicode over HTTP 16:33:05 and i use utf-8 exclusively for the web 16:33:13 v0|d: what is core server? 16:33:19 babel and fastcgi 16:33:34 rsynnott, it's some new web framework just advertised on c.l.l 16:33:42 hm 16:33:51 crhodes had an interesting blog post about unicode in sbcl last week. 16:33:55 i never understand why ppl tell everthing a "web framework" 16:34:19 i think people think a "web framework" will solve every problem they face 16:34:25 but its not the case. 16:35:00 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-123.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:36:02 i don't see why crhodes sees a problem with current implementation 16:36:32 so what if multiple octet-vectors can represent the same string? 16:36:43 just read unicode off the pipe and pretend bytes don't exist 16:37:41 weirdo: string equivalency when talking with "remote" software 16:38:14 weirdo: if you've been in this channel recently, you should be aware of the background of this issue. It's been discussed to death. 16:38:51 well, he used the example of unicode modifiers that combine with various values to assemble certain diacritics and their mod targets having single ancillary unicode assignments 16:38:58 guess i have to lurk moar 16:39:25 but when it's sent to a remote server, it's converted to an octet-vector 16:39:43 and the implementation has the possibility of collapsing various representations into one "correct" one 16:39:48 it'd be better if every os used the same internal unicode rep. ;) 16:40:16 In my opinion, you need to deal with unicode in terms of combining character sequences, in most cases. 16:40:18 weirdo: problem is, even if the encoding used is UTF-8, actual codepoints are different 16:40:43 but sbcl doesn't use UTF-8 as an internal representation 16:40:54 If you normalize these, then the problem largely disappears. 16:40:54 dunno what it uses, but UTF-8 would be O(n) for aref on a character 16:41:24 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duplicate_characters_in_Unicode 16:42:41 Demosthenes: that's not related to --noinform 16:45:16 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:45:28 -!- tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:46:15 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:46:15 tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 16:47:14 -!- besiria [n=user@195.251.214.184] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:47:19 Zhivago: "in most cases" is an interesting phrase. Because it seems to me that "in most cases" you can deal with unicode by treating it as arbitrary blobs of data to shove around without looking at. :) 16:47:21 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 16:47:31 Well, if you don't care about the content, that is true. 16:48:07 hi #lisp -- i'm having trouble with a macro and wondering if anyone can help. my code appears to be producing the correct form, but it errors with "control stack exhausted" when i execute it. 16:48:25 jlf`, can you macroexpand-1 your form into paste.lisp.org/new/lisp ? 16:48:31 jlf pasted ""control stack exhausted" problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86134 16:48:49 tic: interestingly enough i get the same error upon macroexpand-1'ing it 16:49:06 then how do you know it appears to be producing the correct form? 16:49:34 sheesh, what a clusterfuck 16:49:42 roman "XI" as two characters as opposed to oen 16:49:55 mathrick: because doing s/defmacro/defun/ returns a form that i can do (eval *) and get the expected result from postmodern 16:50:24 mathrick: see the REPL section of that paste 16:50:25 are you sure you want a macro? 16:50:45 tic: i tried doing a regular function first but i can't apply #'select-dao as it's itself a macro 16:50:47 -!- laynor [n=laynor@93.107.86.56] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:50:54 saikat_ [n=saikat@98.210.13.214] has joined #lisp 16:51:19 jlf`: okay, try macroexpanding the form returned by the functional version 16:51:19 Then you can't acesss it like that 16:51:20 hmm 16:51:23 have any of you guys looked at schemek? 16:51:24 and see if it breaks 16:51:51 Fade: briefly, it confused me by its claim of being a scheme and CL at the same time, and that's all 16:52:02 yeah, that's why I was looking at it. 16:52:24 Xach: added the Tweet data 16:52:27 -!- tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:52:38 Er, now I did. 16:52:40 tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 16:52:43 jlf annotated #86134 "macroexpand-1'tion of function version" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86134#1 16:53:14 that's not macroexpansion 16:53:14 v0|d, this "core" thing is yours? it says "loading, please hold" despite javascript being enabled 16:53:33 Xach: manual on noinform reads "suppress banners and information messages on startup", that doesn't include the loading/registering noise? 16:53:42 of your macros, i mean 16:54:00 weirdo: um 16:54:00 Demosthenes: not at all. 16:54:07 so it works if macroexpanded in a null lexical environment? 16:54:07 weirdo: whats you browser version? 16:54:15 v0|d, firefox 3.5.alpha-something 16:54:15 jlf`, you need to quote the form. (macroexpand-1 '(find-by-first-keys ...)) ; and not the -function version, because that is a function. 16:54:26 Xach: ok then, i'm misunderstanding what it does 16:54:33 -!- jeremiah2 [n=jeremiah@imaxeson.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:54:35 weirdo: hm wierd, i have 3.5.2 and working. 16:54:44 tic: he did what I asked for 16:54:46 Demosthenes: just compare "sbcl --noinform" to plain "sbcl". the difference is exactly what it does. 16:54:48 maybe it's because i'm low on upstream 16:54:52 weirdo: i hate all dojotoolkit stuff, i'm hoping to get it replaced by jquery soon. 16:54:56 so then, given i'm launching my script fromthe shell and want to pipe out the content, nothing should print except what i choose to (print) 16:55:01 tic: your suggestion itself results in the control stack exhausted error as shown in my original paste 16:55:18 v0|d, what's your modus operandi? widgets? call/cc? both? 16:55:20 Demosthenes: I think there might be a way to shut asdf up, but I don't know the details. 16:55:31 Xach: ah! thats asdf, i bet its an option 16:55:40 v0|d, does it work on hunchentoot only or did someone finally noticed my fastcgi library? 16:55:50 Demosthenes: :verbose nil 16:56:06 weirdo: it works on core server 16:56:06 jlf`: one thing that comes to mind is postmodern doing some kind of fancy codewalking 16:56:21 another lisp web server? 16:56:23 tczy_ [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 16:56:27 gigamonkey: that is pretty cool. i'm glad you started early. it will be interesting to see how it changes after publication. 16:56:27 weirdo: yes 16:56:38 weirdo: see rfcs at http://labs.core.gen.tr/repos/core-server/src/rfc/ 16:56:43 Xach: indeed. 16:56:44 -!- tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:57:06 I'm sort of sad I haven't been scraping Amazon data for PCL over the same period. It'd be interesting to see if there's any correlation. 16:57:12 what's defrule? 16:57:36 weirdo: its the parser functor 16:57:42 weirdo: like parsec in haskell. 16:57:47 oh 16:57:50 and what's a functor? 16:58:02 Xach: I'd say it's a pretty good demonstration of the cause-and-effect of Twitter. 16:58:02 (i tried using wikipedia earlier but it gave no satisfying definition) 16:58:04 weirdo: functor is a homomoprhsim between categories. 16:58:11 oh 16:58:13 okay... 16:58:23 weirdo: when you use a database ie sql 16:58:29 you use a data homomorpshim. 16:58:43 it maps only data portion. a functor maps functions to the codomain category. 16:58:45 categories in the sense of sql relations? 16:58:53 "a monad is a monoid in the category of endofunctors, what's the problem?" 16:59:08 stassats: hehe 16:59:28 mathrick: hmm, any suggestions? i'm not sure where to go from here. 16:59:35 i'm sure there are people who can explain category theory bettern than me:) 17:00:02 I have a math degree and haskell makes me want to find a sledgehammer 17:00:09 jlf`: one question, don't you mean solution instead of 'solution in the macro version call? 17:00:12 so basically you have to parse some data and you're not using either naive recursive-descent, yacc, PEG or regexes, instead relying on esoteric math 17:00:27 stassats: that quieted it down significantly, are there any options to make it further quiet? (ie: style warnings, and the initial register? 17:00:35 laynor [n=laynor@93.107.86.56] has joined #lisp 17:00:35 weirdo: at the time of writing ie 2006, there is no such thing like ragel. 17:00:57 *jlf`* slaps forehead 17:01:02 weirdo: we tried to standard compliant more specifically rfc abnf compliant. 17:01:05 v0|d: why do you use "ie" instead of "in"? 17:01:12 mathrick: now it works.. but why? 17:01:31 Demosthenes: (setf *compile-verbose* nil *compile-print* nil) also 17:01:34 Demosthenes pasted "Startup messages" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86135 17:01:36 matley: right i'll use that in my lines. 17:01:40 ops. 17:01:45 being rfc-compliant won't get you far if you don't work around browser inadequacy 17:01:48 won't suppres style warnings 17:01:54 my erc autocomplete is messing. 17:02:01 weirdo: it's not about browsers 17:02:05 gigamonkey: do you update that automatically or is it whenever you want to show it to #lisp? 17:02:07 weirdo: it's about http 17:02:11 jlf`: dunno, my guess is that it tried to expand (quote solution) and somehow wedged itself, probably a non-terminating method selection? 17:02:30 Demosthenes: there're ways, i'm lazy to look-up 17:02:36 jlf`: or just recursively calling itself 17:02:38 Xach: well, whenever I want to look at it. The Amazon scraping is happening all the time. 17:02:51 v0|d, i was a smtp admin for a while. guess what? the RFC says that the MTA is only allowed to use the HELO/EHLO string for logging purposes 17:02:53 stassats: hrm, those didn't work for me 17:02:55 And I've got code to grab the Twitter data but I run it by hand. 17:02:57 and that's not quite sane 17:03:00 jlf`: notice how it's specialised on T, try looking at the code and see where it goes wrong 17:03:01 *Xach* is a step or two away from fully automating the weekly movie chart generation 17:03:04 Then I hand-run the code to generate the chart. 17:03:35 gigamonkey: are those similar-height tweets on the right half of the chart all from the same person? 17:03:35 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:03:37 so i said, screw the standard! and my server worked just fine and took advantage of being able to filter spambots basing upon their demented HELO parameters 17:03:51 (It's annoying that the Twitter search API ages out tweets. So I really need to set up a regular poll of the search to make sure I don't miss any daa.) 17:04:36 Xach: I think so. It's "NewTechBooks" tweeting the same tweet every so often. 17:04:41 ah 17:04:44 Dunno what that's about. 17:04:51 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32C970.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:05 But it does seem to have helped prop up my sales rank over the last few days so I'm not complaining. 17:05:09 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 17:05:15 weirdo: thats not the case. 17:05:15 When's CoW going to be shipped? I could need some "shallow" reading material? 17:05:32 s/\?/\./2 17:05:38 anyone got emacs' `thing-at-point' to omit the REPL prompt? 17:05:41 weirdo: generally we've always stuck with rfc incompliant code in lisp. 17:05:50 If you order it from Amazon, you may get it around 9/11. 17:05:55 weirdo: like file uploads, parsing the data/time strings. 17:05:56 It should be in bookstores by 9/14. 17:06:07 weirdo: i wanted that mess to end. 17:06:26 gigamonkey: have you been encouraging people to hit the "I'd like to read this on the Kindle" or are you ambivalent to it? 17:06:46 v0|d, i implemented file uploads without looking at the standards, just sniffing data and guessing 17:06:48 :) 17:07:16 when i got it right, it worked on every browser (except for emacs-w3m, which sends LF instead of CRLF in POST) 17:07:27 skeptomai: can you be ambivalent "to" something? I thought it only works with "about" 17:07:36 what's so great about RFCs anyway? 17:07:44 (mathrick: eh, good point) 17:07:54 weirdo: they tell you about cases you didn't sniff 17:07:55 weirdo: it makes it a server 17:08:02 weirdo: a real one 17:08:04 skeptomai: I think it's already in the works. 17:08:05 what's so great about an ANSI spec anyway? 17:08:08 HG` [n=HG@xdsler073.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:08:21 As in, there will be a Kindle edition. I don't know when it comes out relative to the paper book. 17:08:50 gigamonkey: cool. I have no idea how that decision is made, or if the stats from clicking that link actually help 17:09:00 (I preordered the hardcover) 17:09:05 Excellent! 17:09:08 is there any ebook reader that doesn't suck royally? 17:09:16 (ie. not kindle at least) 17:09:32 (Though, truth in advertising, I must tell you that it's not hardbound.) 17:09:36 might as well throw away those pesky tcp and ip and dns rfc's too 17:09:47 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:09:49 hehe 17:09:53 weirdo: emacs-w3m sends LF instead of CRLF? 17:09:58 is it just me or wikipedia can't cover math topics for people who aren't already familiar with them? 17:10:04 p_l, positive 17:10:08 regular w3m works fine 17:10:12 weirdo: ... that's a *big* bug 17:10:19 p_l: more like people who write math articles can't 17:10:23 weirdo: i got similar impression from russian wikipedia 17:10:34 english is much better in that regard, at least on popular topics 17:10:37 I try to fix things I can get through sometimes, but it's a lot of work 17:10:49 stassats: I got my first Russian Tweet about Coders today. 17:10:49 data structure topics are bad too 17:10:51 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdsler073.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:11:00 I even replied with my extremely limited Russian. 17:11:08 they should list 1) algorithms for operations 2) computational complexity 17:11:10 weirdo: tell me about that, the zipper one is awful 17:11:16 mathrick: 307 weirdo 17:11:29 I wanted to rewrite that one, but I ran out of time and then forgot 17:11:41 Has anyone read _The Art of Multiprocessor Programming_? And if so can recommend it? (pkhuong) 17:11:41 p_l: ? 17:11:53 i don't fix anything on english wikipedia since there are too many anal-retentive types 17:11:56 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 17:12:03 mathrick: *nod* i'll do that. thanks for your help. 17:12:05 mathrick: "temporary redirection" :P I wasn't the one asking about math articles :D 17:12:05 it is interesting that i cant make the core server link go into "programming" reddit whatever i do. 17:12:08 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:12:14 it's like lisp is doomed:( 17:12:22 jlf`: glad to be of help 17:12:26 mathrick: depends what you're looking for in an ebook reader. If you want something to avoid carrying around several trees of paperback fiction then many are fine. If you want something you can read A4/Letter/textbook pdfs on then I don't think anything really wins. 17:12:33 Just do what I do. Write in bold on the page "The above paragraph is wrong." and then write in the comment section explaining why, and then let someone else fix it. 17:12:36 v0|d, it's already on the lisp reddit i think 17:12:40 iwaki [n=hide@PPPa287.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:12:51 yes thanks to unknown_lamer 17:12:53 p_l: oh, right 17:12:54 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6BAE0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 17:12:55 the problem with ebook readers is that they are all too small to display A4/Letter in full-size, and the reflow isn't always very good. 17:13:10 v0|d: append random get parameter 17:13:22 stassats: is it fair? 17:13:41 Generally the wikipedia people want to get things right -- and there are plenty of kids who want to do it by the book. 17:13:56 appending is 17:14:16 v0|d: i could not figure out what core server is or what it does. 17:14:26 jlf`: I'd suggest investigating why it breaks and writing a patch 17:14:40 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:45 v0|d: i was not especially motivated to puzzle it out from its web page 17:14:52 Xach: what would you want it to do? 17:15:00 xach: i'll try to make it right. 17:15:07 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:15:09 tic: I found mobireader to be quite good, and iLliad and its bigger brother look quite nice 17:15:13 mathrick: i'll have a go at it 17:15:16 isnt that how open source/gpl rund? 17:15:32 v0|d: I don't know what you mean. 17:15:52 Xach: what would you need to do a web project? 17:16:00 it consists that elements 17:16:05 tic: the problem is also that kindle, for example, can retroactively recall books already sold 17:16:12 it happened with (of all things) the 1984 17:16:23 v0|d: your words don't make sense 17:16:37 the publisher decided they didn't want a kindle edition after all, so amazon deleted it from all the kindles that have already bought it 17:16:40 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:16:45 stassats: help me then. this is why i am here. 17:17:04 how? i can't figure out what you are saying 17:17:22 stassats: tell me about what you use during a web project. 17:17:26 mathrick: that's why I like mobireader - Even when you use DRM, it's not as infuriating as Kindle's, as there's no recall/timeout system 17:17:28 stassats: and i'll try to make it clear. 17:17:35 v0|d: i don't really know a good solution to the publicity problem. maybe it would help to demonstrate what code you would have to write if core server did not exist, and how much easier it is if core server does exist. 17:17:36 Supposedly they changed things so books you've purchased can't be revoked, just the ability to purchase new copies. But the fact that they could do that in the first place is wrong. 17:17:42 p_l: can you buy !DRM books? 17:17:44 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:17:50 mathrick: well, apparently it had been published entirely without the publisher's permission, or something 17:17:53 xach: hm like examples? 17:17:57 haskell's type system isn't turing-complete, right? 17:18:08 rsynnott: that is unimportant, frankly 17:18:09 *rsynnott* has one of the previous-gen sony things; it's quite nice if a little slow 17:18:14 mathrick: yes, actually I have I think only one DRM'ed title 17:18:17 p_l: and honestly, any system that has DRM is broken 17:18:21 laynor_ [n=laynor@93.107.89.145] has joined #lisp 17:18:22 mathrick: well, to be fair, it was that the publisher turned out not to have the rights they had sold to Amazon. 17:18:23 xach: you'r right, we have examples in the repo but they'rnt on the web yelling that "look what it does" 17:18:35 It wasn't just that they changed their mind. 17:18:38 gigamonkey: but the fact they *can* do it is what's scary 17:18:46 Xach: http://labs.core.gen.tr/repos/core-server/examples/ 17:19:08 mathrick: DRM is optional in this one and I simply prefer to get my books from !DRM sources 17:19:13 mathrick, [kindle] yeah, sucks. you'd want the iRex iLiad or something. Runs a full Linux. 17:19:33 mathrick: my favorite publisher (Baen) sells only non-DRMed titles 17:19:36 p_l: right, but what's the relative market size for DRM vs. !DRM publishers? 17:19:43 oh, Baen is awesome 17:19:48 v0|d: it would be helpful to see them running live 17:19:50 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:19:52 yeah, Baen kicks ass :D 17:19:55 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 17:19:56 non-DRM is probably commercially irrelevant 17:20:08 (of course, many readers can do both) 17:20:11 Xach: i'm planning on that when i upgrade that host. 17:20:23 Xach: actually what might be a killer example? 17:20:27 any ideas? 17:20:56 rsynnott: actually, authors that published through Webscriptions (Baen's non-drmed ebook shop) said that they had better results than those who used DRMed publishers - though that was few years ago, before Kindle etc. 17:20:57 rsynnott: disagree 17:21:15 I will pirate DRM'd things on principle 17:21:30 v0|d: will wright talked a little about this problem when it comes to designing marketing material for games (and i think it is generally applicable). a person looking at a game box has to imagine what the game is like to play, and then decide if that game they imagined is worth buying. you are asking the browser to be a game designer! 17:21:39 still, Webscriptions is actually easier for me to use than pirating :D 17:21:40 whereas I try my best to buy !DRMd things I can afford and believe to be priced fairly 17:21:41 v0|d: and if they don't think up a good game, they will not buy. 17:21:51 (and sometimes cheaper) 17:22:07 Xach: interesting approach. 17:22:12 Xach:thanks. 17:22:27 i'm actually glad to come to marketing stage. 17:22:30 v0|d: i am not very interested in designing your software, please don't ask me what *i* would do for web software. what did *you* have in mind? 17:23:41 Xach: i should have a simple answer for your question. 17:24:00 or some pretty pictures 17:24:18 Xach: pictures of a pretty bank account maybe:) 17:24:26 anyway 17:24:53 i believe that lisp has to have a killer web application to make a good reputation. 17:25:07 for that i need a solid base which i call core server. 17:25:16 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:18 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:25:31 -!- nvoorhies_ is now known as nvoorhies 17:25:37 v0|d: this works both ways, of course. after i saw the preview for Terminator 4, i made up a really great movie in my head and was excited to go see it. but the movie they actually made was no good. 17:26:26 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:26:30 right that a very big problem. 17:26:47 That was totally my Matrix experience 17:26:52 we've been discussing this very long time. 17:27:07 tmh: ahh, i made up an *incredible* movie in my head for Matrix Reloaded... 17:27:12 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@76.87.84.207] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 17:28:27 so, having bad expectations is better 17:28:34 i have both. 17:29:10 i may consider writing a blog so that ppl here can go and blog about #lisp to make a good reputation but there is already wordpress blogspot etc. 17:29:12 stassats: Honestly, I've found myself to be so atypical that I usually temper my expectations greatly to avoid disappointment. 17:29:18 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:29:18 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 17:30:09 Xach, you saw terminator 4 after horrible terminator 3 ? :) 17:30:13 trying to commoditise(sp?) even the seemingly simplest things or set of tools seems to be very hard, v0|d .. when it comes to anything even close to UI it seems to approach infinitely hard; people agree on absolutely nothing .. there are like a million java/php frameworks out there for instance x) 17:30:22 -!- laynor [n=laynor@93.107.86.56] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:30:46 milanj: i actually liked terminator 3 17:30:49 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 17:30:50 Xach: I solved that problem by declaring the Matrix a film with no sequels 17:30:59 lnostdal: That's why we have themes. :-) (I despise themes) 17:31:04 lnostdal: yes but cant we coexist? 17:31:17 lnostdal: actually i cant make even lispers use it. 17:31:22 very disappointing. 17:31:37 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 17:31:40 v0id, i tried today to check core server 17:31:52 v0|d: one of the problems is that it's very hard to understand what core server is and how it applies to anyone's problems 17:32:05 (I did that before, so I have a relatively good idea of what core server is) 17:32:09 but install.sh stuck on cffi i think .. something like that 17:32:32 p_l: yes, Webscriptions + Bookeen CyBook Gen3 has got me through lots of travel 17:33:46 *p_l* uses an old PDA 17:34:45 mathrick: it does a lot of things. that's why it's not obvious but this does not mean it should not be obvious. 17:35:01 v0|d: I didn't say it should be hard. Just that it is 17:35:14 it was re: "I can't even get lispers to use it" 17:36:18 you'r absolutely right. 17:36:31 maybe i should record a screencast like segv. 17:36:31 v0|d: if I were you, I'd try to find someone with strong English writing skills who hasn't used core server before, and get them to read through your docs and yell at you every time they fail to understand something 17:36:45 then fix it to say what they'd rather have found instead 17:37:04 mathrick: nice advise. 17:37:11 thanks. 17:37:33 even though they do not have to yell of course, heh:) 17:37:44 so, was there an ARM SBCL around? The N900 looks sexy. 17:37:51 milanj: maybe it's due to libev dependency 17:37:58 v0|d: I find that very helpful personally, it teaches you to avoid the same mistake in the future 17:37:59 milanj: could you install libenv? 17:38:09 s/libenv/libev the event library. 17:38:18 mathrick: isee 17:38:22 v0|d: in my case, I've decided against core based on technical/historical reasons, so in a way you got me to get interested at least 17:38:40 err, s/to get// 17:38:56 milanj: we've trying to employ epoll during development but couldn't finish it. so i should fix that dependency. 17:39:35 mathrick: ok i'll try my best, just feed me with bugs and errors. 17:39:38 v0|d: oh, and that demo CMS thingy you have running, it's very, very confusing. I got it to make a new page, only to be utterly lost as to how to make it show said page anywhere 17:39:51 sepulte [n=user@xdsl-87-78-122-36.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:40:14 it's like those files the browser helpfully downloads for you and then you have no idea where they ended up 17:40:31 (I wish to strangle whoever came up with that idea first) 17:40:36 business as usual, then. ;) 17:40:56 yes, my TOSTRANGLE list is pretty long 17:41:03 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:41:08 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-120-196.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:41:11 -!- sepulte is now known as sepult 17:41:50 mathrick: ah yes 17:41:52 roughly the length of *projects-todo*, eh? 17:42:05 mahrick: actually it's pretty easy to use after getting used to it. 17:42:08 I'm not sure, probably longer 17:42:25 hm my erc auto-complete is messing. 17:42:41 I have no intention of ever working on a web browser, and every intention to inflict pain upon people who make my web browsing experience miserable for instance 17:43:15 v0|d: that's absolutely inconsequential, and incindetally your problem #1. You can't make the first impression twice 17:43:30 if I can't figure out how to use it the first time, I don't care how easy the subsequent times will be 17:44:10 right but its not easy and i'm not a marketing expert. 17:44:22 i'm just trying to make it right. 17:44:29 -!- iwaki [n=hide@PPPa287.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has left #lisp 17:44:33 what i've learned today : 17:44:40 - need to be obvious 17:44:53 - cant make the first impression twice. 17:44:58 it sounds very hard. 17:45:18 gotto go for dinner. 17:45:20 because it is 17:45:38 i'll be back soon to hear more about "first impression", thanks:) 17:47:50 guille_ pasted "How would I convert `args` to the lambda list expression of defun?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86137 17:48:29 guille_: please rephrase the question? 17:48:38 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-33-174.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:48:41 guille_: what do you want? The code already does what you're asking. 17:49:03 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-64-240.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:50:23 yes sorry, i'm pretty dumb today. it was breaking before but i was not enclosing the var. `args` in parenthesis 17:50:27 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-77-173.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:51:44 guille_: that depends on how you pass the args 17:52:03 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@office.osgdc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 17:52:44 the only way for it to work is 1) ARGS is a list (foo bar baz) 2) ARGS is a single form and you're thus declaring a lambda list with exactly one argument defined by enclosing it in parens 17:54:12 so (defcontroller (foo-controller) (foo-arg baz-arg) ...) or (defcontroller (foo-controller) lonely-arg ...) 17:54:57 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-214.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:55 mathrick: ok, i've got it now 17:56:34 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-2-126.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:56:53 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:57:14 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:58:01 hi, if I'm in pkg cl-user, then (defvar *foo* "bar"), then I'm (in-package :foo) why can't I (use-package :cl-user) and (print *foo*) ? 17:58:36 egn: using a package makes the exported symbols available without prefixes 17:58:47 egn: you must export *FOO* from cl-user if you want to use it in foo 17:58:52 Xach: thanks 17:59:26 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:59:40 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:59:50 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-31-104.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:00:25 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 18:00:41 v0|d, darcs failed to download cffi, that is error i get 18:00:46 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:00:48 with core-server-installer 18:00:50 rjack [n=rjack@93-42-55-113.ip85.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 18:00:59 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:01:29 milanj: could you paste the error to paste.lisp? 18:01:54 sure 18:02:11 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:02:48 http://paste.lisp.org/display/86139 18:03:05 oh 18:03:10 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6BAE0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:33 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:03:51 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:04:03 milanj: hm the command works fine for me. 18:04:15 milanj: maybe it's something temporary. it doesnt give 404 to me. 18:04:40 actually fxr wanred me about this that the installation should be tarball consisting everthing needed. 18:04:53 but i insisted on downlading live. maybe i'm wrong. 18:04:57 hmm, i cant darcs get cffi 18:05:00 dont know why 18:05:10 which version of darcs are you using? 18:05:13 anyway, this failed on linux early today 18:05:15 now on osx 18:05:19 leopard 18:05:25 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:05:26 1.0.9 18:05:49 hm it's old could you upgrade it to something 2? 18:06:09 darcs changed repo type in 2.0 branch. 18:06:32 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:06:59 is there a possbility that we have the newest sbcl in opensolaris soon? 18:07:05 Rajin_ [n=Rajin@d083008.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 18:07:06 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 18:07:12 i want to make core server run on that too, it has been getting attention for a while. 18:07:40 btw. v0|d, why is core-server sbcl only ? 18:07:58 i mean, ccl is nice platform also 18:08:38 milanj: it's not that hard. 18:08:47 i've seperated part that should be ported to .. 18:09:00 http://labs.core.gen.tr/repos/core-server/src/compat/ 18:09:09 we need threads and sockets 18:09:33 i didn't have time to make it portable up to now. 18:10:10 i'm trying to get attention to it so that i some ccl guy helps me during the process. 18:10:37 is there something sbcl specific sockets or thfreads related ? 18:10:44 nope. 18:10:57 we tried to make use of iolib and event library in linux. 18:11:11 but nothing else afairemember. 18:11:18 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:11:22 bordeux-threads and usocket are ok though 18:11:44 usocket can't do non-blocking IO 18:11:52 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-197.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 18:11:57 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-55-207-173.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:00 current core server deosnt have nonblocking io server 18:12:07 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-214.northland.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:12:16 it's not finished we need fast cps. 18:12:27 v0|d, with new darcs it pass cffi 18:12:31 only do CPS for select operators 18:12:34 not for everything 18:12:35 but stuck on "Checking out system: RT " 18:13:09 then it will be fast 18:13:20 hmm 18:13:38 "too many dots in the name: # hmm 18:14:23 hmm i got that error once too 18:14:25 never seen such. 18:14:38 with introspecting on ASDF components 18:14:42 milanj: i've checked rt i can download it gracefully 18:15:14 http://paste.lisp.org/display/86140 18:15:15 maybe i can change the repo url's to somewhere on my server to make it work. 18:15:22 -!- rjack [n=rjack@93-42-55-113.ip85.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] 18:16:29 hm thats the temp file that it creates to unpack tarballs 18:16:46 it complains that it has two dots in the name? 18:16:51 that's wierd 18:18:11 (sb-alien:define-alien-routine "tmpnam" sb-alien:c-string 18:18:11 (dest (* sb-alien:c-string))) 18:18:11 18:18:21 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit ["leaving"] 18:18:21 i use this one to create temporary file names. 18:18:26 maybe there is a better alternative. 18:19:55 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:20:22 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:20:31 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-213.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:12 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83.64.248.68] has quit ["Verlassend"] 18:23:58 mikesch [n=axel@cable-213-168-64-234.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:24:48 -!- mikesch [n=axel@cable-213-168-64-234.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:24:54 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:25:01 The function TR.GEN.CORE.SERVER:CORE-SEARCH is undefined 18:25:11 is when trying to load it with asdf 18:25:38 let me fgrep. 18:25:44 calling TMPNAM is asking for trouble 18:26:18 it's race-condition-prone 18:26:22 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:38 weirdo: any alternative? 18:26:52 mkstemp(3) or roll up your own, it's not difficult 18:26:55 the problem is you need to put the last component in the ;TYPE 18:27:16 open's :if-exists :error can be helpful for temporary files 18:27:26 the problem in http://paste.lisp.org/display/86140, I mean 18:27:28 :if-exists nil can be good too 18:27:33 since errors are consy 18:27:45 and slow 18:27:48 if you have a unix pathname and want a cl pathname, use sb-ext:native-pathname (iirc) 18:28:14 weirdo, this is for installer only :) 18:28:20 v0|d, i don't get it why you use so many implementation-specific features when the code could have been portable from the start 18:28:43 weirdo: dont speak to soon thereis nothing that cant be ported. 18:28:51 s/to/too/g 18:29:12 milanj: i'm having a quick install to see what's happening. 18:29:14 v0|d, there shouldn't be a need to actually port any code, it should work on major impls without any effort 18:29:17 milanj: give me a second. 18:29:22 unless you actively work against portability 18:29:38 v0|d: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/393104 18:29:40 at least sbcl is open-source code so there's no vendor lock-in involved 18:29:52 in other news, microsoft is making their scheme version 18:30:31 v0|d: You could add a comment saying that you were looking for exactly this. This bug has not yet been approved, so positive feedback may help getting it approved. 18:31:25 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:31:34 tcr: let me register to launchpad. 18:32:04 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-0-197.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 18:32:20 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 18:32:22 v0|d: OSICAT has something like that 18:32:34 Bonus point if you actually provide the necessary bits. It's not difficult but requires some little research 18:32:44 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:45 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.224.106] has joined #lisp 18:33:03 does anyone know how to update the slime version of Aquamacs (for OSX)? 18:33:09 milanj: i did not get the error. 18:33:18 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C6E1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:19 milanj:SERVER> (apropos 'core-search) => CORE-SEARCH (fbound) 18:33:27 (I have a new box setup and the remote swank version is higher than the aquamacs slime version) 18:33:46 Moe111: It's generally recommend to use Slime directly from CVS. 18:33:46 i just did asdf:load-op 'core-server 18:34:03 milanj: ah ok 18:34:17 tcr: yes, I have done that. But that's on the remote server that I'm connecting to. 18:34:23 Moe111, i'd go for a git checkout; http://git.boinkor.net/gitweb/slime.git .. you can navigate back and forth in history, then 18:34:37 milanj: i have core-server/lib/systems/ directory in my asdf:*central-registrY* 18:34:43 hmm.. so you guys don't know how to update the Aquamacs slime impl? 18:34:49 Moe111: How comes then that the remote side's version is higher? 18:34:49 milanj: it may work if you push that into the list. 18:34:52 (I'd rather use the latest swank as well) 18:35:27 milanj: but server may fail to run since it looks for a server layout (like virtual host config files, log directory etc) 18:35:42 Ikarus [n=Rajin@d152017.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 18:35:54 tcr: I just installed the remote server, and I've fetched the latest swank. I am using Aquamacs which was built several months ago. There isn't a more recent version unless I build from source. I Want to avoid that, so am asking if there's an easy way to upgrade slime on the aquamacs app 18:36:11 i only downloaded core-server 18:36:25 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:34 i think i already have rest of libraries that core-server need 18:36:43 milanj: go to core-server directory 18:36:45 -!- Rajin_ [n=Rajin@d083008.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:36:47 Moe111: If you're lucky, you can cd to the slime directory, and do a cvs up 18:36:49 milanj: and try sbcl --load etc/start.lisp 18:36:57 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:37:10 milanj: core-server/bin/core-server shell scripts does much the same with screen abilities. 18:37:17 Moe111: Sorry, I do not know the answer. Still my point remains; it's generally recommended to use the cvs version directly. 18:37:37 Exactly because the question of upgrading can be answered trivially 18:37:40 tcr: yes. thanks. I have the cvs version. 18:37:54 guille_` [n=user@193.Red-81-37-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:30 (namestring (asdf:component-pathname (second (slot-value (asdf:find-system 'alexandria) 'asdf::components)))) 18:38:33 type this 18:38:36 at the repl 18:38:38 -!- Ikarus [n=Rajin@d152017.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:38:40 to reproduce the bug 18:38:43 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 18:39:37 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 18:40:16 moocow [n=new@65.61.237.53] has joined #lisp 18:40:33 is it a bug in asdf or sbcl? 18:40:37 sbcl could be more forgiving 18:40:46 automatically chopping off the type 18:40:51 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:41:01 meow? 18:41:04 -!- HET2 [n=diman@131.251.176.98] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:43:36 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:43:47 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:44:13 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:44:46 -!- HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 18:46:32 milanj: any progress? 18:47:41 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 18:48:46 ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 18:49:28 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-213.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:49:38 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-213.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:32 woodz [n=woodz@host86-157-108-252.range86-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:51:02 Looks like Symbolics sold off their domain name http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/08/27/25-years-later-first-registered-domain-name-changes-hands/ 18:52:07 v0|d, no such file 18:52:09 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:52:15 -!- woodz [n=woodz@host86-157-108-252.range86-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:52:17 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:52:51 milanj: hm ok 18:53:13 it means i cannot install the server base. 18:53:44 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:54:41 milanj: sorry i couldnt help you. 18:55:03 no worries, i just wanted to see if it can help me 18:55:12 -!- guille_ [n=user@193.Red-81-37-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:55:36 i'm still on hunchentoot/cl-who and wanted to check core-server today when i saw news on reddit/lisp 18:55:39 [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.95.40.124] has joined #lisp 18:56:08 milanj: if you give me access to you shell or so i may digg further. 18:56:21 milanj: i dont think it's something big. 18:57:45 Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 18:57:58 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:58:15 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:36 -!- moocow [n=new@65.61.237.53] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:01:10 metawilm_ [n=willem@g225021243.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:02:01 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-118-16.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:03:45 HG` [n=HG@xdslfa007.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:04:21 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:04:39 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:05:03 francogrex [n=franco@91.177.135.215] has joined #lisp 19:06:13 michaelw: congratulations 19:10:33 michaelw: Yeah congratulations 19:12:53 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:13:11 Fare: i am trying to fix your bug. 19:13:32 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-cmadwtiyksvcdbhk] has joined #lisp 19:14:35 Xach, thanks! 19:15:43 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:15:58 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:17:19 -!- metawilm [n=willem@g225022166.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:17:19 -!- metawilm_ is now known as metawilm 19:17:48 I think I have it narrowed down. I am not sure how to get a quick rebuild after a runtime source change, though. should slam.sh do it? is there something more appropriate? 19:18:30 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:18:44 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:18:56 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-81.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:19:21 slam.sh should do it 19:19:38 ausente [n=user5442@189-19-125-6.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 19:19:41 ok, thanks 19:19:53 if not, then make in the runtime directory, followed by SB_XC_HOST='something' sh ./make-genesis.sh, followed by sh ./make-target-2.sh && GNUMAKE=make sh ./make-target-contrib.sh 19:20:18 slam.sh does all that plus some extra stuff to recrosscompile any changed lisp files 19:20:31 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:20:31 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 19:20:33 (but requires :sb-after-xc-core to have been used previously) 19:20:44 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1"] 19:21:42 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:22:18 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:44 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 19:23:32 I haven't found any more bug in xcvb in a few days. That's exciting. 19:23:45 release time? 19:24:10 tic: only after I'm done fixing the bugs in qres that prevent it from compiling with xcvb 19:24:17 also, there are missing features 19:24:29 but yeah, I could make an intermediate release. 19:29:15 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-31-104.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:26 Fare, mhm. an alpha, then? 19:32:32 tic: well, there is a release tarball already 19:32:38 Fare, alright. 19:32:46 I mean, everytime I fix any significant bug, I make a release tarball. 19:33:02 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 19:33:19 it it possible to evaluate some code in a macro inside the lexical scope of the body passed? 19:33:20 last bug was the "exponential exploration of the dependency tree" that was keeping runtime high. 19:33:59 *guille_`* supposes it is, but doesn't know how :) 19:34:00 i'm missing out, tell me sumthin' 19:34:06 will it have asdf compatibility layer? 19:34:08 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:12 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-15125.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 19:34:13 guille_`, you can bind or fbind a symbol to be referenced by the body 19:34:30 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 19:34:44 as it `(symbol-macrolet ((foo ...)) ,@body) 19:34:53 s/it/in/ 19:35:19 weirdo, there is a asdf->xcvb converter, that works in simple cases 19:35:28 and can help even in harder cases 19:36:13 LuciusMare [n=tomas@187.110.broadband4.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 19:36:51 I've converted most of qres with it. 19:36:57 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:36:57 -!- LuciusMare [n=tomas@187.110.broadband4.iol.cz] has left #lisp 19:39:22 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:41:44 -!- hohum [n=dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:42:44 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-213.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:44 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-213.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:44:13 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:44:34 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:44:48 jao [n=jao@199.Red-79-144-20.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:50 do you agree with the following statement: 19:44:56 "With the addition of CLOS, Common Lisp has become the most powerful object-oriented language in widespread use. Ironically, it is also the language in which object-oriented programming is least necessary." 19:45:57 WhiteFlame [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:19 ia_ [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 19:46:30 OOP is misunderstood 19:46:40 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@c-67-170-103-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 19:46:47 one can write object-oriented programs without defining any classes 19:47:14 i don't think it's the most powerful language 19:47:17 tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 19:47:32 it suffers because not everything is an object, i.e. there are no generic sequences available out of the box 19:47:40 also, CL isn't really hackable 19:47:51 maybe impls themselves are, but not the cl as specified in the standard 19:47:53 weirdo, if someone has been there for 40 years, and still spewing nonsense, would you blame those who don't understand, or the one who claims to say something? 19:47:56 smalltalk is much more hackable 19:48:25 weirdo, smalltalk is not THAT hackable, unless you mean Squeak at which point you might as well hack SBCL. 19:48:42 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:48:54 mornfall_ [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 19:48:57 but indeed CL is not the most "powerful" language, whatever that means. 19:49:01 skeptomai [n=cb@c-67-170-103-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:11 pjb`` [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 19:49:12 guille_` pasted "incorrect symbol-macrolet usage? May I use an equivalent but for functions?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86143 19:49:18 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-118-16.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:49:18 -!- tczy_ [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:49:18 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:49:18 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:49:18 -!- timor1 [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:49:18 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:49:18 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:49:18 -!- pjb` [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:49:18 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:49:18 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:49:18 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:49:18 -!- scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:49:18 -!- p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-pqpjegxewskuvgar] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:49:23 i meant most powerful OOP language, hard to compare languages in general terms 19:49:35 Fare: that seems to be dependent on your POV, thus it is not to be said that CL is *not* the most powerful either :) 19:49:51 francogrex: I sort of agree with that. But the fact that it is "least necessary" doesn't mean that it is not used. In fact it is used most of the time. 19:49:53 weirdo: even in OOP, it is hard to compare... 19:50:00 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:50:19 do Haskell type classes count as OOP ? 19:50:22 weirdo: also, what can smalltalk do, taht lisp can't? 19:50:25 Fare: NO! 19:50:27 Fare: :P 19:50:43 why not? 19:50:46 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 19:50:51 I was just mocking 19:50:55 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-118-16.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:50:55 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 19:50:55 mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 19:50:55 pjb` [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 19:50:55 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:55 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:50:55 BrianRice [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:55 scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 19:50:55 p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-pqpjegxewskuvgar] has joined #lisp 19:50:57 p_l_ [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/session] has joined #lisp 19:50:57 -!- p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-pqpjegxewskuvgar] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:51:05 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Operation timed out] 19:51:52 -!- pjb` [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:52:07 weirdo: writing OO code without defining classes -> look at sheeple, if you want that 19:52:15 jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:53:23 what i meant was specializing on builtin CL types, which is a powerful technique by ltself, as opposed to a hardcoded ETYPECASE 19:53:33 weirdo: I'd dispute your claim that "not everything is an object" in CL. Everything is an object. It's just that not all operations are defined as generic functions, which is a different problem. 19:53:34 weirdo: also: before blaiming CL as being insufficient, please search for ways to put the features you want in the language. It is very likely that you can incorporate what you want in the language 19:53:52 weirdo: you can specialize on them, so what is wrong with them? 19:54:25 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:54:37 weirdo: as a complement to gigamonkey's comment: you could redefine CL operations as generic functions in your own package, and use that to work in. 19:54:55 weirdo, sure, CL kinda sucks in places -- but you can always easily get around it at a small performance price 19:55:08 i was merely saying that the essence of OOP is sending messages, there shouldn't be that much emphasis on classes, protocols, interfaces etc. 19:55:10 phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 19:55:10 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Operation timed out] 19:55:12 and if you want both perf and your language feature, it's just a macro-expansion away 19:55:19 madnificent: Though you would run into the fundamental hairiness of defining binary operators in a sane way. 19:55:27 weirdo: that is not a universally accepted notion. 19:55:27 " the essence of OOP is sending messages" says who? 19:55:37 Fare: Alan Kay, probably. 19:55:38 you're confused with actors 19:55:41 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:55:42 so was Alan. 19:55:45 Fare, alan kay 19:55:51 oh 19:55:59 -!- phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:56:03 Actually I met Alan -- he agrees that he really meant actors, but got OOP as a bad compromise. 19:56:04 Though if you look at GF's, they're a generalization of message sending so they're even *more* OO! 19:56:14 Or something. 19:56:20 gigamonkey: yes, but that's so in each language, no? 19:56:33 gigamonkey: as in: it is inherent to the concept itself 19:56:48 madnificent: are you talking about binary ops? 19:56:52 If so, yes. 19:56:53 gigamonkey: yes 19:56:54 CLOS is nice and much more hackable than the core language 19:57:22 I expect #lisp to be smarter than to get hung up about the English meaning of a term, and argue about its scientific meaning. 19:57:41 -!- mornfall_ is now known as mornfall 19:57:52 beach: you overestimate us, we're mere mortals 19:58:10 madnificent: slightly smarter, I would expect. 19:58:13 beach: What language you'd propose we use to discuss the scientific meaning of terms. 19:58:26 weirdo> i was merely saying that the essence of OOP is sending messages <<< PCL page 190 19:58:47 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:58:58 well instead of sending messages to a single object, you send a message to a tuple of them. 19:59:02 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:59:10 gigamonkey: English is fine. We just have to be careful when we attribute a technical or a scientific meaning to a word, and when we just use the common meaning of it. 19:59:15 *madnificent* doesn't think message sending is a correct way to define OO 19:59:20 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-122-36.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:59:30 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslfa007.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:00:01 hohum [n=dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:01 Fare: what about your claim that CL is not the most powerful language? By saying that you imply that there are other more powerful languages 20:00:03 Well, if the term in question is, "object oriented", I think I'd maintain it doesn't have a scientific or technical meaning. 20:00:05 *weirdo* tries to preserve as much referential transparency as possible even with CLOS 20:00:15 Nor really any but a very nebulous in any sense. 20:00:16 methods defined on exported symbols, should have the responsibility of not breaking anything. The objects themselves are merely undergoing the operations defined on them 20:00:22 95% of Computer Science is marketing 20:00:28 there are entities with attributes, and there are specified messages you can send to objects. i'd say...but... 20:00:40 Yo Krystof, I found a fancier way to backout sales/week from Sales Rank. 20:00:46 URL in a moment ... 20:00:48 let's call "Anarchy" the absence of coordination, compute a "Price of Anarchy" by comparing with a trivial coordination model, and conclude that we justified intervention by government, and ask for more government subsidies! (real life example with academic "mathematicians", "economists" and even "physicists" involved) 20:00:48 francogrex: Fare must've been talking about an oracle :) 20:00:51 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@c-67-170-103-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:01:05 http://www.nimblebooks.com/wordpress/2006/06/power-law-converting-amazon-sales-ranks-to-units-sold/ 20:01:24 francogrex: Stop it! This is not the main debate. It is easy to find more powerful languages. Howerver, I think that Common Lisp is a great compromise in that it is as powerful as you can get (or nearly so) while still making it possible to write a compiler that generates fast native code. 20:01:38 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:01:55 beach: no will not stop it because I didn't start it.µ 20:02:03 beach, these days, I'm interested in some kind of CL -> Scheme -> native code compilation chain. 20:02:12 would like fare to explain what he says 20:02:13 francogrex, vendetta! 20:02:21 beach: i don't want to argue, but - what languages would you consider more powerful? 20:02:46 Fare: What is the motivation for the Scheme step? 20:02:58 gigamonkey: e^{-alog x} = e^{log(x^{-a})} = x^{-a} 20:02:58 guaqua: I don't consider the question important, because any language more powerful than Common Lisp would be too slow for what I do. 20:02:59 francogrex: Fare was talking about what weirdo said. He was merely avoiding an impossible argument... 20:03:15 tmh: simpler, cleaner semantics. A nice module language. Real macros. 20:03:27 beach: that too, is hard to proove ;) 20:03:28 in other words, that equation is the same as the one you've been using, modulo different constants 20:03:32 a "kernel lisp" approach if you like. 20:03:34 Krystof: okay. I found a way with different coefficients! 20:03:41 Fare: Ok, so what is the motivation for the CL origin? (I'm thinking existing code) 20:03:48 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 20:04:03 it would be nice defining a core language with primitives only, then writing a standard library in it that could run on any implementation 20:04:05 gigamonkey: yay! 20:04:07 madnificent: Luckily, few people ask me to prove it, and I don't put myself in situations where this is asked of me. 20:04:18 Fare: something like http://paste.lisp.org/display/84252 ;-) 20:04:19 gigamonkey: I would expect it to produce a similar-looking graph. Go to it! 20:04:24 beach: too late! I dare you ;) 20:04:33 Well, I didn't think it was totally different because, indeed, the graph looks pretty much the same. 20:04:38 (Made the switch yesterday.) 20:04:40 -!- pjb`` is now known as pjb 20:04:47 heh, OK 20:05:07 madnificent: You are out of luck, because I have long ago abandoned the amition to be right. 20:05:08 beach: your explanation isn't sufficient. or how should i put it. you must have some motivation to it? 20:05:08 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:05:11 your new one is based on data from 2001-2005, and the one I found is 2006 (so approximately equally out of date) 20:05:14 Out of curiosity, how did you get 0.4? I couldn't find it in the Foner article. Did you just eyeball the graph? 20:05:34 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:05:40 Fare: i posted an explanation and patch to launchpad 20:05:42 beach: which mean I win \o/ without even having a vision.... sigh, this such am empty win :( 20:06:01 Fare: i'll mention it to the mailing list after the freeze, i guess... 20:06:08 gigamonkey: yes 20:06:30 Xach: thanks! 20:06:46 guaqua: Sure, I do. Take Python for instance. I consider the possibility of adding a slot to any object a problem because now essentially each object has to be a hash table, so much slower slot access. 20:06:48 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 20:06:53 took the approximately straight line from salesrank between 10 and 100,000 (split across the two graphs) and calculated the gradient 20:07:03 Krystof: I also added yet more chartjunk today--an overlaid bar graph of tweets about the book by time and number of followers. 20:07:12 madnificent: You can win if you like. It's not a problem. 20:07:25 beach: so you think that a language such as python could be more powerful? 20:07:42 gigamonkey: soon it will be a candidate for my Bad Graph of the Week (that I like to show to my lab) 20:07:53 gigamonkey: the brighter text looks nicer 20:07:57 particularly since the freesheet for the banking district is on holiday 20:07:58 i mean, you are thinking in terms of properties of languages, not any particular language? 20:08:24 Krystof: All PR is good PR. Feel free! 20:08:30 Xach: thanks. 20:08:41 guaqua: powerfulness (?) is not a one-dimensional relationship. In that particular respect it is. I don't know much about Python to judge the rest, but I suspect Common Lisp would beat it in most other domains. 20:08:50 "power" :-) 20:09:04 Sounds good! 20:09:06 it's the thing concision is equivalent to 20:09:10 well, this is vague and fuzzy, but bare with me :) 20:09:11 (according to brucio) 20:09:16 "concisionness" 20:10:56 Fare: is the transcript at the end of https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/411925 what you expected? 20:11:53 guaqua: The problem is that people don't realize how many compromises are involved in designing a language. So many incompetent language designers go for power only and end up with a language that cannot be compiled to efficient code (they may use some excuse that it was only meant as a "glue" language). 20:12:09 is anyone in the mood to help me with annotation to improve this function so that the (disassemble) will be reasonable? http://paste.lisp.org/display/86145 20:12:35 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:12:53 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:13:18 cxy cx cy and c all all integers 20:13:21 guaqua: To me, Common Lisp, is a compromise that was created by very smart people who knew not to include in the language features that might be diffucult (at the time) to compile to efficient machine code. 20:13:23 beach: but you are talking about some properties of languages, not any particular language? (i'm trying to get into grips with your motivation for the opinion) 20:13:36 beach, was your previous sentence about Python and/or Ruby, by chance? :-) 20:13:41 francogrex: what about clisp, see my annotation? 20:14:29 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:34 -!- hohum [n=dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:14:50 hohum [n=dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:50 when I upgrade to a new version of sbcl, is there a way to automatically recompile all the libraries in sbcl/site ? 20:14:58 joga_ [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 20:15:21 pjb: can't it be much reduced the disassemble output? 20:15:21 Moe111: i use the trick at http://cliki.net/asdf 20:15:23 Moe111: asdf-binary-location should help, but there's nothing automatic. 20:15:49 -!- metawilm [n=willem@g225021243.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 20:15:54 francogrex: perhaps compiling with (optimize space), but not with clisp, it would produce the same thing. 20:15:59 whats going on? clsql + slime + sbcl isn't happy c-x,c-e on form (xyz) goes to ldb: http://paste.lisp.org/+1UGY 20:16:01 *tic* uses the power of the scrollback and notes that it was in fact about Python. 20:16:02 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit ["Shutting this computer down to ship it back to Massachusetts. Whoo."] 20:16:08 Xach: that's an awesome trick =) 20:16:13 beach: sorry, wrote that line while you were typing yours. pretty much understand your point now :) 20:16:26 francogrex: but at least clisp opcodes are readable and understandbale, contrarily ot ix86... 20:16:28 tic: I don't want to mention specific languages, because I don't know them well, but my theoretical background tells me that being able to add slots to individual objects (aside from the software-engineering problems it might cause) makes it much harder to write a compiler that generates good code. Though perhaps the Self experience says otherwise. 20:17:05 beach: we should see what the unladen-swallow guys (python + llvm) come up with :) 20:17:30 guaqua: Sure. 20:17:53 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:18:04 pjb: yeah, as you probably have guessed i was referring to sbcl's disassemble output 20:18:05 kerimbasol [n=kerim@88.247.173.26] has joined #lisp 20:18:10 -!- kerimbasol [n=kerim@88.247.173.26] has quit [Client Quit] 20:18:17 kerimbasol [n=kerim@88.247.173.26] has joined #lisp 20:21:01 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:21:12 oh you are kidding 20:21:20 sourceforge has changed its file release system _again_? 20:22:00 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:22:10 -!- joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:22:14 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-72-152.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:22:54 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:22:54 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-197.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 20:23:26 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:23:39 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:23:44 The good news is it can only have gotten better :) 20:24:06 ahaha 20:26:42 no 20:28:41 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-207.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:28:45 rares [n=rares@VDSL-130-13-178-65.PHNX.QWEST.NET] has joined #lisp 20:28:51 pjb: was thinking more about adding type declarations and such 20:30:15 anyway... it's acceptable as it is I think 20:30:28 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:30:36 beach: Isn't it in RPG's critique of Common Lisp that said that Common Lisp is actually difficult to compile efficiently? (I can't remember whether it actually said it requires a lot of effort to be put into a optimizing compiler.) 20:30:58 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:31:10 I always use ffi to integrate C functions in lisp, but never cffi; is there any advantage of using cffi over ffi? 20:31:21 i don't want hunchentoot to replace the webserver - i just want to run lisp scripts from multiple domains so would Drakma be useful 20:31:35 francogrex: unfortunately, the clisp compiler is small and simple, and it doesn't take much into account the declarations. AFAIK, only the minimum imposed by the standard. 20:32:13 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 20:32:47 tcr: I don't know. You would have to show me a URL. I agree that a lot of effort might have to be put in to generate efficient code (given dynamic typing etc), but at least the language makes it possible. 20:33:37 francogrex: CFFI is a portability layer: if you used it, your program may be run on other CL implementations where CFFI run. 20:34:51 beach: http://dreamsongs.com/Files/clcrit.pdf 20:35:00 pjb: ah ok, so it's not really to embed other programs written in other programming langs as well? 20:35:34 francogrex: What does FFI mean? 20:35:58 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-213.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:37:12 pjb: it's low level foreign func interface 20:37:18 beach: my 'win' wasn't serious (duh). Glad #lisp is back to normal 20:37:56 like the ffi:clines 20:38:04 francogrex: interface to what? To other programs written in other programming langs! 20:38:11 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 20:38:30 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-213.northland.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:54 what i know, only a handful of non-c languages have a good compiler. smalltalk has a quick closed-source implementation, ruby has rubinius, python will hopefully have unladen swallow 20:38:55 yes, it seems. i only used it with C codes 20:39:14 lisps (counting schemes here) have good compilers 20:39:38 a lot of effort has been put into each of these compilers, not as much into others 20:40:12 dmitri [n=dmitri@132.170.87.23] has joined #lisp 20:40:31 i guess my point was more in the lines of "effort makes the difference and we don't really know what language features really make it slow" 20:40:40 jikanter [n=jordan@24-148-12-119.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:40:46 pjb: would be something like: (defun c-sin (x) (ffi:clines "#include ") (ffi:c-inline (x) (:double) :double "sin(#0)" :one-liner t)) 20:40:48 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-2-126.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:40:56 Anyone know where I can find cl-truetype? 20:41:37 francogrex: Sorry, I don't know well ecl FFI. I tend to use CFFI nowadays. 20:42:48 pjb: it's ok, but then are you happy with it? what for example did you use it for last? 20:43:13 To interface with libusb. 20:43:27 Most of the sadness comes from the C side. CFFI is ok. 20:43:28 FFI in CL is a little misleading since it really only applies to interfacing with C. I would really like to directly interface with Fortran without having to use a C intermediary layer. 20:44:13 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:44:18 -!- jikanter [n=jordan@24-148-12-119.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:44:20 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:28 pjb: what do you mean by "Most of the sadness comes from the C side"? 20:44:31 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:44:42 francogrex: there are some problems with how cffi does things that don't mix that well with how ecl does it 20:44:57 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:02 francogrex: most of the C libraries API are ill designed. 20:45:27 tcr: yes I just was reading that 20:45:42 francogrex: foremost, they don't plan for interactive exploratory use, so if you pass them bad data structure they segfault... 20:45:46 tmh: like f2cl, 20:45:48 ? 20:46:11 francogrex: No. 20:46:22 pjb: i see 20:46:40 tmh: well why not use f2cl? 20:48:48 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:12 scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-65-51.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:47 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@12.0.194.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:49:48 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:49:55 francogrex: f2cl only handles F77. The translated code won't have the numeric performance of the Fortran library. 20:50:16 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 20:50:31 madnificent: I agree! 20:50:59 tmh: true. and cffi cannot help? 20:51:04 *Krystof* hopes not to have to use the SourceForge Web Interface for a couple of months 20:51:51 Krystof: Re 1.0.31 Thank goodness--I've been waiting for good EBCDIC support! 20:51:56 ;-) 20:51:59 Congrats on the release. 20:52:51 francogrex: It's not a cffi issue, it's the fact that no CL implementation that I'm aware of enables you to define a foreign function interface directly to a Fortran library. You have to use a C interface shim to the Fortran. Look at Matlisp. It could be done, but I have neither the knowledge or the time to figure it out, I'm just a simple end user. 20:52:59 guaqua: I think we know quite well what language features make it easy or hard to generate efficient code. Occasionally, reseach changes our current ideas, but current knowledge is the best we have to determine it. 20:54:20 beach: did you ever read the Fran Allen chapter in Coders at Work? She had some harsh things to say about C, vis a vis, languages that make it hard to write good compilers. 20:54:28 gigamonkey: there were originally going to be more entries in the "improvements to Unicode" category, but I got sidetracked fixing miscompilations of the external formats I wanted to add 20:54:40 tmh: allegro supports :fortran linkage 20:54:57 gigamonkey: I did not read that (yeat). Thanks for pointing it out. 20:55:37 yeat? Holy smoke! "yet", of course. 20:56:01 clsql + sbcl + slime, found it: (sb-sys:ignore-interrupt sb-unix:sigpipe) ( http://trac.common-lisp.net/nio ) 20:56:03 *beach* wonders what happened to his typing skills tonight. 20:56:06 fe[nl]ix: I'll have to go check that out. 20:56:10 maybe you were baking and thinking about yeast. 20:56:10 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:56:15 pjb: what do you think of what tmh said above? do you think you can have cffi or other enable lisp to use fortran 90 code? 20:56:16 I was noting today with joy that Unicode was just working across multiple pieces of software: I could see non-Latin alphabets in tweets in my browser and then when I grabbed that data and sucked it into Lisp and dumped it to a file and opened the file in Emacs it all Just Worked. 20:56:24 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:56:47 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 20:57:10 tmh: http://franz.com/support/documentation/8.1/doc/foreign-functions.htm#def-foreign-call-syntax-3 20:57:13 <_3b> francogrex: cffi relies on the lisp implementation for the low level part of the FFI, so it can't replace the supported ABI with another 20:57:15 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:57:35 beach: i should probably read a lot more about the research. the fact still is, a lot less effort has been put into developing compilers for languages such as python 20:57:43 Wonder when CaW will be out here in Sweden. It's listed under "Programming" and "MacOS" 20:57:45 francogrex: Gah! It has nothing to do with CFFI. The ability is lacking in the underlying FFI of the implementation. Sans fe[nl]ix's comment about Allegro. 20:57:46 gigamonkey: Yeah, I have been using Vietnamese for some time, and it "just works", though I need Emacs 23 (perhaps 22 would do), but McCLIM with mcclim-truetype "just works". 20:57:53 but i'm off to sleep.. :) 20:58:24 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:58:45 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:58:45 beach: can you type vietnamese in mcclim? 20:59:02 guaqua: Sure, there is a lot of effort trying to clean up after bad language designers. 20:59:17 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 20:59:26 stassats: No, we don't have the concepts of input methods yet. 20:59:58 i know, i thought maybe you implemented them 21:00:35 stassats: No, but I suppose if the OS suggested an input method, McCLIM would work. 21:00:43 dysinger [n=dysinger@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:01 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:17 clx doesn't support xkb 21:01:56 I know. We need a hacker to support CLX! :( 21:01:56 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:02:20 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 21:02:39 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:03:16 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:03:51 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:04:17 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 21:06:04 -!- vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:06:21 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229174183.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 21:06:24 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:06:37 xkb sucks 21:06:47 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 21:07:29 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:07:40 they don't mean xkb, they mean XKEYBOARD 21:08:15 Fare: Good you didn't spell xcvb out of habit 21:08:38 oh, it sucks, too. But at least xcvb is not braindead 21:09:31 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-118-16.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:12:20 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:12:47 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 21:14:36 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:14:48 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:18:24 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-6-166.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:18:26 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 21:18:35 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-65-51.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:19:42 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:19:52 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:20:16 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 21:20:34 wasabi______ [n=wasabi@nttkyo393252.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:20:36 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 21:20:41 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-197.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 21:20:55 -!- dmitri [n=dmitri@132.170.87.23] has left #lisp 21:23:57 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:24:16 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 21:25:29 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:25:32 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:27:37 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:28:16 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 21:28:40 -!- wasabi_____ [n=wasabi@nttkyo434120.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:28:44 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-213.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:28:51 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-213.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:21 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:33:08 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:33:39 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [] 21:33:47 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 21:34:22 p0a [n=user@athedsl-384296.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 21:35:31 common lisp is communist 21:35:35 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 21:35:45 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-64-240.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:36:02 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:36:55 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:36:55 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:37:06 p0a: not as much as Kali Scheme... 21:37:15 C++ is communist - common lisp just has legacy baggage 21:37:19 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 21:37:29 rares: like DEFCONSTANT? 21:37:35 -!- tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:39:42 rares: what's frightening, is all these posts on clc++ asking for little languages additions and such... 21:40:42 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:22 pjb: Clearly the C++ standard isn't big enough yet. 21:43:26 i have no problem with modularizing a language, but then just friggin port C++ to parrot already and quit whining 21:44:24 Well the point is that whatever the size of the language, users will need to add their own syntactical or sematical additions. DEFMACRO is a must. 21:45:37 pjb: defmacro only pretends to do that 21:45:55 It doesn't actually modify any semantics, but there's the readtable too if you want to do that 21:45:55 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:45:56 It's a hook to the compiler so you can do that. 21:46:16 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 21:47:05 (also I don't think defmacro should exist in every language. It'd be pointless in C for instance( 21:48:16 p0a: I don't agree. I generate C code from emacs lisp. There is even an emacs lisp "pre-processor" do automate it. 21:48:37 c macros are neutered 21:48:38 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:48:47 C macros aren't macros 21:49:12 they're named lambda wannabes 21:49:16 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 21:49:32 pjb: Tell me, how is source code represented in C? 21:49:35 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:49:57 As far as emacs lisp is concerned, as strings. 21:50:10 If you know the answer, how useful would macros be in that language? Macros are useful in lisp because lisp source code is a tree. 21:50:39 any source code can be a tree 21:50:41 pjb: I'm talking about incorporating macros in C, and that this is not possible in a sensible manner 21:50:50 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 21:50:54 However, you could (easily enough for C, almost impossibly for C++) write a parser to transform C code into sexp and have good macros there. You can do that with all the parseable programming languages. 21:50:56 vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 21:50:57 p0a: who are you? 21:51:32 pjb: of course. LOOP is such thing on its own. 21:51:59 francogrex: I don't know how to answer that question. 21:52:17 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6BAE0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 21:52:20 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:52:47 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 21:53:15 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:53:23 kpreid___ [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:59 Macros in C could look like this: macro f(int x) { return "int i; while(i 21:54:02 whoops. 21:54:20 anyone using Graham's Arc? 21:54:26 Graham. 21:54:26 Graham 21:54:32 macro f(int x) { return "int i; while(i < %d) { i++; }", x; } 21:54:38 That makes two of them! :-) 21:55:05 he's the only one!? 21:55:05 (note the format directives to make things easier. of course a standard-compliant version of asprintf could be used anyway) 21:55:18 francogrex: There's no reason to use arc 21:55:20 is he not liked/respected in the Cl community? 21:55:26 he is 21:55:27 so? 21:56:07 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 21:56:08 but why would he design a language noone would use and he was the leader in promoting CL? I wonder 21:56:42 francogrex: the language is very new. only those who want to experiment use it right now 21:57:09 plan 9 was designed by some very respected men but it's still a failure for a commercial OS (yes, research...) 21:57:35 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-213.northland.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:57:37 How has the situation changed (improved) vs. early 1980's that a multiplicity of different and incomatible lisps (arc, newlisp, clojure) would be a good thing today, when it was deemed so bad at the time that the effort to make Common Lisp was decided to be invested? 21:57:37 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:58:06 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:58:15 francogrex: With CL, everyone has personal problems. Some don't like X, some don't like Y about it. Graham just bothered writing a new language that supposedly "fixed" his pet-peeves. 21:58:16 If it was silly to have tens of incompatible lisp in 1980, it seems to me it is even more silly to have incompatible lisps nowadays. 21:58:21 so in a way, by designing arc graham shat on himself? 21:58:36 p0a: see eXTensible C 21:58:47 http://www.cs.nyu.edu/~rgrimm/xtc/ 21:58:50 he used to write so good books/articles 21:58:53 bigb [n=bigb@r190-64-199-196.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 21:58:57 francogrex: not at all, at least until he tries to convince the word that we should leave CL for Arc. 21:59:03 Same for clojure. 21:59:24 so he's still a fervent CL user/promoter? 21:59:29 Fare: Interesting. I'll read some more about it though I don't think of going back to C. 21:59:30 pg still writes interesting stuff -- but he's not a good language designer 21:59:34 Or C-like things. 21:59:34 francogrex: not at all he didn't shit on himself. 21:59:44 p0a: what r u looking for? 22:00:01 Fare: a chit-chat until I'm ready to leave 22:00:06 p0a: And there of course OpenC++, a MOP for g++... 22:00:57 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@adsl-89-134-5-102.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 22:01:04 ok seems my time online is up; have to go in 30 sec. bye all 22:01:30 I'll leave too 22:01:31 bye 22:01:34 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:01:41 -!- francogrex [n=franco@91.177.135.215] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:01:42 pjb: yep. it looks like a mess to use 22:01:49 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:02:11 C++'s fault, I don't blame the programmer(s). ;-) 22:02:12 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-384296.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 22:02:14 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:02:34 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:04:19 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.123.206.101] has quit ["Valete!"] 22:04:25 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.180.194] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:04:37 -!- stassats changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.0.31, Osicat 0.6.0, CFFI 0.10.5, trivial-features 0.5, ABCL 0.15.0, Hunchentoot & Drakma 1.0.0, usocket 0.4.1, yason-0.1, series 2.2.10, CMUCL 19f. 22:05:15 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:10:39 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 22:12:12 krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-69-166.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:13:48 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-6-166.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:14:07 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:17 -!- kerimbasol [n=kerim@88.247.173.26] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:14:22 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:14:23 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-81.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:14:34 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:15:57 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:16:16 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-0-197.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:16:18 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:16:20 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 22:16:32 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 22:16:45 hi, I just downloaded and built sbcl 1.0.30 from source. When I do (sb-thread:make-thread #'(lambda (x))) I get the pretty self explanatory: "Not supported in unithread builds." 22:16:53 question is: how do I make it a multithreaded build? 22:16:55 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:17:08 build yourself 22:17:12 Moe111: it's explained in the README or something 22:17:21 download sources, 1.0.31 is out, and read INSTALL file 22:18:02 Moe111: see "2.2. Customizing SBCL" in the INSTALL file. 22:18:31 ah. great. thanks 22:18:40 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:18:50 c++'s source code is not any more represented in text than CL's source code is. c++ is just missing the tally of sexp's when it comes to macros... 22:19:22 stassats: 1.0.31 doesn't seem to be up on the sbcl.sourceforge.net page. Are you getting it from cvs? 22:19:37 ...which would be, if existed, a whole lot more verbose and typed than sexp's... 22:19:43 Moe111: click on "view all files" 22:20:06 http://sourceforge.net/projects/sbcl/files/ 22:20:18 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:20:22 Moe111: I'd suggest to get it from cvs 22:20:22 attila_lendvai, need not be, with a proper quoting mechanism. 22:20:36 Moe111: This, again, makes updating much simpler the next time 22:20:53 i'd than suggest to get from git 22:20:56 then 22:21:19 attila_lendvai, Camlp4's or Coq's extensible grammars show how you can (quasi)quote stuff while keeping mostly the same surface syntax as the (quasi)quoted stuff 22:22:50 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:23:07 Fare: and how do they specify the context of the quoted part? i mean, if i want to inject a function call somewhere, how can i tell the reader to start from a function call context at the quoted to-be inserted piece? 22:23:16 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:23:21 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 22:23:39 you may have to specify which non-terminal the quoted part is using for its syntax 22:23:45 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 22:23:48 Fare: actually it's going to be a real question when i'll start moving/refactoring sql generation into cl-quasi-quote 22:24:37 -!- bigb [n=bigb@r190-64-199-196.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:24:38 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:25:16 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 22:25:36 Moe111: I suggest git clone git://repo.or.cz/sbcl.git 22:26:37 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:28:05 thanks all 22:28:23 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:28:47 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 22:29:02 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-86-87.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:29:16 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-47-39.w90-59.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:29:17 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:32:38 -!- guille_` [n=user@193.Red-81-37-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:33:36 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-5-102.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit ["..."] 22:33:57 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:36:14 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:29 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.123.64.128] has joined #lisp 22:42:12 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-31-104.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:42:33 -!- krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-69-166.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:42:49 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 22:43:57 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 22:47:18 -!- jao [n=jao@199.Red-79-144-20.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:48:09 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 22:50:51 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-15125.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:51:14 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:51:34 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:51:46 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 22:54:54 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:55:17 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 22:55:27 -!- joga_ is now known as joga 22:56:00 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:56:16 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 22:56:59 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:40 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:59:42 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:01:22 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:01:36 krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-85-195.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 23:01:53 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:02:17 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 23:02:37 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-86-87.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:03:10 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:05:12 skeptomai [n=cb@c-67-170-103-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:50 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:16 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483B84E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:10:18 Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 23:13:45 -!- nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:16:40 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 23:16:46 is this right with SBCL or maybe he ansi-tests are not right? http://paste.lisp.org/display/86155#1 23:17:18 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:18:07 *dmiles* gets the defination of make-print-level-struct 23:18:20 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 23:19:37 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.123.64.128] has quit ["Valete!"] 23:19:38 (defstruct print-level-struct) 23:21:10 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:21:43 emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-11-230.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:22:43 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:24:00 when clim is stuck and i terminate the thread, how do i fix the # that has a broken pipe? 23:24:50 pizdets [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:26 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@c-67-170-103-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:26:03 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 23:26:32 p0a [n=user@athedsl-384296.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:26:42 Hello, I'm trying to locate the documentation for this library http://www.cliki.net/Trivial-HTTP 23:26:52 it seems there's none(?). 23:27:34 skeptomai [n=cb@c-67-170-103-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:36 rvirding [n=chatzill@h6n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:36 iwaki [n=hide@PPPa272.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:31:42 scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-65-51.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:52 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:33:05 -!- kenpp [n=kenpp@84.92.70.37] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:33:59 -!- iwaki [n=hide@PPPa272.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 23:34:00 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C6E1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:34:11 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:34:29 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p14220-ipngn1701marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:34:32 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C6E1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:52 iwaki [n=hide@PPPa272.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:36:39 Heh. the library is so small I could just read the source code 23:36:53 use drakma 23:37:04 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:37:36 I don't want to spend time learning a library (or parts of it). But okay. I'll take a look 23:37:57 i use just one function 23:38:29 HTTP-REQUEST? 23:38:36 yes 23:39:12 A single function with 70 keys... ;-P 23:39:24 Yes I think drakma will do 23:39:35 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:39:45 you can learn one key at a time 23:39:50 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 23:40:05 so, it scales better than trivial-http 23:42:29 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:42:29 I get a 404 error for one of the dependencies using ASDF-INSTALL. The dependency is cl-ssl or something 23:42:46 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 23:43:11 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-plus-ssl/download/cl+ssl.tar.gz is the link. 23:43:22 Which seems to work. weird 23:44:50 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C6E1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:46:28 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:46:34 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-yrrritthvfjczdzt] has joined #lisp 23:46:42 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C6E1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:46 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 23:46:54 cliki doesn't accept + 23:48:06 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:06 or there's some trick 23:48:41 Well it's all fixed now. I'm reading the docs of drakma 23:49:12 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:49:46 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 23:50:41 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:53 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:51:16 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 23:54:55 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:56:39 Are there functions for sets? I'm certain I've read either their names or implementations of such functions but I don't remember the book. 23:56:55 (and searching fails me) 23:56:55 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:57:16 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 23:57:50 skeptoma1 [n=cb@c-67-170-103-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:58 elias` [n=c@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:58:18 -!- nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:58:46 nipra [n=nipra@122.170.25.68] has joined #lisp 23:58:56 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 23:59:27 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:59:30 -!- skeptoma1 [n=cb@c-67-170-103-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit]