00:00:10 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 00:00:27 konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has joined #lisp 00:01:05 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B53F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:02:05 -!- seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 00:04:17 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:07:27 -!- dcooper8 [n=dcooper8@c-71-205-172-135.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #lisp 00:08:07 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:11 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-57-157.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:09:29 envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 00:11:16 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:12:46 dcooper8 [n=dcooper8@c-71-205-172-135.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:56 -!- dcooper8 [n=dcooper8@c-71-205-172-135.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #lisp 00:16:01 is it expected that TYPEP SATISFIES knows about local functions? 00:16:08 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:16:32 weirdo: no 00:16:33 because local functions aren't stored inside the symbol's function cell 00:17:10 from the spec: "... which must be a symbol whose global function definition is a one-argument predicate." 00:17:22 global functions are stored in the symbol, while local functions are stored in the environment 00:17:23 weirdo pasted "sbcl TYPEP SATISFIES bug" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85981 00:18:16 htk_ [n=htk___@95.65.241.70] has joined #lisp 00:19:14 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:19:35 <_3b> "The form (typep x '(satisfies p)) is equivalent to (if (p x) t nil)." implies that is valid 00:20:34 _3b: hmm, that's confusing, because the spec also says that it checks the -global- function definition 00:20:40 it doesn't work in all other implementations 00:20:43 even in CMUCL 00:20:44 Exactly. I'd say that the conclusion is that the predicate can't be shadowed lexically in portable code. 00:21:09 weirdo: the bug is in the spec, not sbcl :) 00:21:53 <_3b> you could argue that it is specified differently for TYPEP and other uses of satisfies 00:22:13 <_3b> (which could also be argued to be a spec bug if so :) 00:22:28 CLtL3 authors, take note... 00:22:43 <_3b> "A type-specifier of the form (satisfies fn) is handled by applying the function fn to object." in typep implies the same behavior 00:22:48 methinks it's a bug if open-coded version behaves differently than runtime one 00:25:35 -!- [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.95.42.144] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:27:07 hmm 00:28:37 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-087-052.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:28:50 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:28 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:34:00 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:35:23 is there a list of projects clbuild knows about? 00:35:43 or is it reconstructed from clever cliki URL hacks? 00:35:44 fusss: /path/to/clbuild/projects 00:36:40 nope, it's stored in files. There's a way to add your own projects too, but I've never tried it. 00:36:56 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-37-179.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:37:00 laynor [n=laynor@93.107.138.62] has joined #lisp 00:37:09 [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.95.42.144] has joined #lisp 00:38:44 -!- [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.95.42.144] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:38:56 cheers! 00:39:13 i am trying to get clbuild to play nice with asdf-install 00:39:16 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-51-254.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:39:48 basically download packages to the same directory as asdf-install, maybe do *.asd symlinks automatically as well 00:40:46 I think the easiest way to do that is actually the other way around 00:41:06 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:41:14 blitz_ [n=blitz@2001:6f8:10f6:200:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has joined #lisp 00:41:21 i don't see any problems with separate directories 00:41:33 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-cqwbbmhoixibrxhs] has joined #lisp 00:41:58 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2942.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:44:28 bigb [n=bigb@r190-64-192-55.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:45:58 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:47:41 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 00:49:49 duplicate downloads; I have a habit for poluting *central-registry* 00:50:41 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:53:35 -!- bigb [n=bigb@r190-64-192-55.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:54:09 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 00:54:14 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:54:25 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 00:55:19 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:55:39 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:02:43 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:46 *rtoym* wonders if a new cmucl release will come out before cmucl 19f falls off the topic list. :-) 01:03:25 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-5-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:58 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:07:15 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954F88F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:07:52 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:08 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:08:10 hi Fare 01:08:32 *Fare* released XCVB 0.364 with which QRes can be converted from asdf to xcvb automatically. Yay! 01:09:28 fun 01:09:33 now, XCVB has a performance bug. 01:09:49 On such a large system, it takes 3 minutes to run instead of 10 seconds 01:10:21 I ran sb-sprof, but I can't make sense of what it's telling me! 01:11:29 Fare: try adding call counts to various interval XCVB functions, so you can see which ones get called most often in a build. 01:11:56 Fare: You can try pasting the report 01:12:51 danlei [n=user@pD954F2BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:56 What does it mean for standard output to be connected to a tty? I.e. how does one test for that? 01:14:13 Or more directly, why does ls --color=auto executed in a shell inside Emacs think it's talking to a tty? 01:15:30 gigamonkey: what's the error message ? 01:16:09 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:16:27 Adlai: or just profile. 01:16:51 pkhuong, it's big, but OK, I'll paste it 01:17:07 interestingly, I just tried and it took "only" 23 seconds this time 01:17:08 fe[nl]ix: no error, it just spews control codes that I imagine are intended to colorize things. 01:17:23 Ralith: well, Fare said that the output wasn't clear, and I remember that I was really confused when I first used sprof and with-call-counts gave a much clearer quick reference 01:17:35 gigamonkey: emacs term doesn't interpret ANSI color coding? that sounds like fail 01:17:49 Adlai: but less meaningful! 01:17:52 gigamonkey: there's a setting that you can turn on in your .emacs 01:18:10 Ralith: it does. The issue is with ls detecting it's not talking to a pty. 01:18:28 Ralith: hmm? it just adds information that's nice and simple... 01:18:40 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:18:40 "nice and simple" = integers, as opposed to percentages :) 01:18:45 gigamonkey: emacs has at least three terminal emulators(of which I know). try eshell 01:18:50 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-4ae470d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:19:06 Adlai: and those values aren't nearly as meaningful. 01:19:15 fe[nl]ix: ansi-term has been good to me; more so than esheel. 01:19:26 pkhuong: what are the codes it spews? 01:19:29 Ralith: right, but the output isn't -less- meaningful. You don't get any less output. 01:19:49 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-4ae470d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:19:55 Adlai: what 01:19:59 the output is indeed less meaningful 01:20:03 since all you get is call counts 01:20:09 as opposed to time spent 01:20:24 I seem to remember it adding call counts in a new column... 01:20:35 gigamonkey, to test it they probably call the posix isatty function; in the case of a pty (virtual terminal) this will return true as well 01:20:36 pkhuong, fe[nl]ix: are those replacements for M-x shell or should I somehow configure M-x shell to use those instead of whatever it's doing now? 01:21:12 gigamonkey: They're replacement. For ansi-term (in mainline since 22, I think), you want M-x term or M-x ansi-term. 01:21:13 pkhuong: lol. so there's eshell, term, ansi-term and terminal-emulator 01:21:21 and shell 01:21:50 Yeah. I just tried M-x ansi-term. Looks nice. 01:22:01 fe[nl]ix: term and ansi-term are the same. ansi-term creates a new one, term pops any existing term buffer up instead. 01:22:10 Now I've got to break a decade-old M-x shell habit. 01:22:18 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.6.191] has joined #lisp 01:22:31 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.6.191] has left #lisp 01:22:54 Paste too large. 01:22:59 sigh 01:23:20 Fare: pastebin.ca takes huge pastes, although it's no lisppaste 01:23:44 it's in common-lisp.net:~frideau/x2m.out 01:24:29 Holy sh*t, how come nobody told me about this before. Now 'less' works inside Emacs too!!!1111ONE!! 01:24:45 hahaha 01:24:45 gigamonkey: now try switching to another buffer ;) 01:24:58 pkhuong: how do you mean? 01:24:58 *Fare* moves it to public_html/ in the hope of making it web-accessible 01:25:15 minion: memo for nikodemus: I think the truncate are broken (the PSXHASH test dies) 01:25:15 Remembered. I'll tell nikodemus when he/she/it next speaks. 01:25:25 oh god 01:26:10 *Adlai* disables highlighting of trailing whitespace when terminal mode loads 01:26:19 *Fare* now knows too much about eval-when 01:26:22 I wish I didn't 01:26:54 Fare: I wish I did. what have you learned? 01:27:14 Adlai, I have a write-up, though it's lacking examples 01:27:25 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 01:27:49 (if you're interested) 01:27:55 I might put it on my blog some day 01:27:58 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:28:10 sure. 01:28:34 Fare: you could try the deterministic profiler too. I prefer it with single-threaded code 01:28:45 http://common-lisp.net/~frideau/x2m.out 01:28:46 <_3b> Fare: are you pretty printing things to a long single line string? 01:28:55 _3b: uh? 01:29:04 what/where? 01:29:43 <_3b> fare still trying to track that part down :) 01:30:07 Fare: do you use extensible sequences? 01:30:14 pkhuong, not that I know 01:30:30 _3b: what part? 01:30:45 *Ralith* has tried emacs terminals and always finds them awkward 01:30:47 -!- pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:30:50 urxvt ftw <3 01:30:56 <_3b> Fare: XCVB::WRITE-COMPUTATION-TO-MAKEFILE maybe? 01:31:04 Ralith: urxvt + screen! 01:31:10 <_3b> or XCVB::TEXT-FOR-XCVB-DRIVER-COMMAND-LOAD-FILE 01:31:50 <_3b> Fare: is corresponding source viewable somewhere? 01:32:01 _3b: these ought to be cheap computations. 01:32:17 yes, you can grab the xcvb tarball in /project/xcvb/releases/ 01:32:22 *Adlai* drowns in a mass of xcvb profiling info 01:32:24 <_3b> Fare: if i'm reading it right, it is the problem where pretty printing very long lines to a string is slow 01:32:39 <_3b> since is searches the entire string every print for previous end of line 01:32:42 Fare: still, if you're using the pretty printer and have some long lines, things will be very slow. 01:32:47 _3b: oh. Yes, I'm pretty-printing stuff 01:33:14 people were complaining that I was ugly-printing the module information 01:33:26 Fare: maybe write your own pretty-print functions that assume it's on a single line? 01:33:26 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.12.93] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.2/20090729225027]"] 01:33:30 -!- blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:33:40 so instead of writing my own special-purpose pretty-printer, I figured I'd use the builtin CL pretty-printer 01:34:11 well, hans and others complained that I was writing everything as a long line, before 01:34:17 (I agree with them) 01:34:30 should I be writing my own pretty-printer? 01:34:44 Naw. SBCL should be fixed. 01:34:54 Could always break lines more eagerly 01:35:26 The out of line calls to EQL and IDENTITY are weird. 01:35:26 *_3b* didn't think it was as much of a problem with should lines though 01:35:52 Wait... my pretty-printing stuff happens in a different part of the code, that isn't slow 01:35:53 <_3b> *short lines 01:36:08 a2x uses pretty-printing. x2m doesn't (or shouldn't) 01:37:40 x2m doesn't use identity directly 01:38:17 I was supposing that I could be doing too much equal-gethash with lists of keywords and strings. 01:38:17 <_3b> i think those eql and identity are from pretty printing if i read the tree right 01:38:46 *_3b* wonders how hard it would be to write a nice viewer for sprof output 01:38:56 I maintain sets of traversed dependencies with such hash-tables 01:39:20 _3b: it's not really hard to read, since there are no cycle 01:39:24 I don't (knowingly) pretty-print while outputting the makefile. I mostly use ~A 01:39:27 _Trickster_ [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has joined #lisp 01:39:44 <_3b> pkhuong: yeah, i just want to be able to click around the tree instead of searching for the numbers or whatever :) 01:39:52 but yes, I create very long lines 01:40:28 basically, huge shell invocations of sbcl explicitly loading hundreds of cfasl's and compiling a lisp file 01:40:31 -!- |Trickster| [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 01:40:57 <_3b> try binding *print-pretty* to nil around makefile output if that isn't too hard 01:41:55 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-98-245-87-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:03 Fare: ok, no. Blame SBCL on that one. 01:42:38 The *out of line* definition for %FIND-POSITION doesn't special case the default TEST and KEY arguments 01:42:52 -!- Orest^bnc [n=Orest@hates-script-kiddies.ath.cx] has quit ["changing servers"] 01:43:11 Orest^bnc [n=Orest@hates-script-kiddies.ath.cx] has joined #lisp 01:43:34 why is find-position being used, already? 01:44:05 -!- qebab [i=finnrobi@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:44:26 Use of FIND or POSITION with SPEED <= SPACE. 01:44:46 is it PORTABLE-PATHNAME-FROM-STRING making everything slow???? 01:44:47 or unknown sequence type 01:46:28 chank [n=chank@203.143.159.19] has joined #lisp 01:46:32 seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:46:47 whoa, I would never have guessed that my pathname manipulations were causing the slow-down 01:47:12 nope, looks like the pretty printer, really. 01:47:13 <_3b> Fare: so you ruled out the pretty printing? 01:47:30 -!- chank [n=chank@203.143.159.19] has left #lisp 01:48:26 it looks like the Makefile-generation does a lot of conversions between pathnames and namestrings, including verification that pathnames are "portable" 01:48:50 I'll time the computations before and after the Makefile generation, and see if that's the slow part. 01:48:53 (should be fast) 01:49:05 <_3b> Fare: from that trace, it looks like the biggest slowdown is pretty-printer overhead writing the makefile 01:49:05 thanks a LOT for your help 01:49:27 the Makefile isn't *pretty* printed -- do you see traces of pretty? 01:49:30 <_3b> binding *print-pretty* to nil there should fix that if so 01:49:52 <_3b> internal stuff, even if you aren't intending to use it 01:50:37 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:51:49 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:04 -!- nvoorhies_ is now known as nvoorhies 01:52:17 qebab [i=finnrobi@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 01:52:37 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:13 -!- uman_boring is now known as uman 01:56:31 alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:43 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-vjdyipmewitjmovz] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:58:02 indeed, binding *print-pretty* to nil seems to help - I would never have guessed that it was T by default and hurting me. 01:58:48 computing the graph takes 7 seconds - a bit long, but liveable. Printing the Makefile apparently takes over 14 seconds w/o rebinding print-pretty 01:59:06 <_3b> yeah, you just happened to hit an edge case SBCL doesn't like :/ 01:59:23 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@220-136-228-166.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:34 Grey_Fox [n=chatzill@ppp118-208-141-225.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:28 OK. Much better. 02:02:39 Is there anything obviously wrong in the residual x2m.out ? 02:02:44 (I replaced it) 02:02:55 *Adlai* just edited a CLiki page! \o/ 02:04:13 Adlai: congrats. Which? 02:06:07 Fare: lots of calls to EQUAL on strings, I guess. 02:07:03 <_3b> nothing obvious without actually looking at the source so far 02:07:25 minion: tell fare about Portable Exit 02:07:25 Portable Exit: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/Portable%20Exit 02:09:25 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:09:53 3b: thanks 02:10:21 <_3b> Fare: does cl-launch have a .asd ? 02:10:27 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:27 pkhuong, indeed. Apparently, both my portable string layer and the hashing are at stake 02:10:40 _3b, yes, if you install it 02:10:49 it also has a build.xcvb 02:11:19 <_3b> install beyond git clone ? 02:11:25 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:11:25 note that you can export LISP_FASL_CACHE=NIL to disable cl-launch's fasl redirection 02:11:43 *_3b* is just trying to install enough deps to load xcvb enough to use M-. :p 02:11:44 _3b: yes -- see sources for -B install 02:13:14 would things go faster if I tried hard to use simple-base-strings? 02:13:15 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-238-39.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:14:04 Not much, unless you're mixing string types. 02:14:32 I have some plans to get a couple undergrads working on that stuff. 02:15:08 ok. a *2 speed up is enough for today, I suppose. 02:15:24 thanks a whole lot to you, pkhuong & _3b ! 02:18:28 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 02:19:22 -!- tmilford [n=tmilford@76.89.231.7] has left #lisp 02:20:55 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:25:06 <_3b> Fare: next thing i'd look at is probably the pushnew in (issue-load-command static-traversal t) 02:26:40 <_3b> (actually maybe not, was misreading numbers... might still be worth a few % though) 02:29:35 gonzojive_ [n=red@122.162.184.54] has joined #lisp 02:29:39 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 02:29:42 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:31:54 <_3b> hmm, or maybe i'm just going around in circles and that is what i thought it was 02:31:58 *_3b* is confused now 02:32:08 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@2001:6f8:10f6:200:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:32:14 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954F2BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:32:37 elliotstern [n=chatzill@pool-71-187-87-202.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:44 ouch, I hadn't included all the dependencies. Now back to 2:30 minutes of runtime :( :( :( 02:37:57 -!- gonzojive [n=red@122.161.150.179] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:39:51 -!- krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-52-254.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:41:48 Fare: try iolib.pathname :P 02:43:55 fe[nl]ix, meh 02:44:13 gonzojive [n=red@122.162.185.40] has joined #lisp 02:45:18 *Fare* compiles qres with make -j -k -f xcvb.mk 02:45:26 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.223.182] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 02:45:56 cfasl's help a LOT 02:48:42 Okay. My love affair with ansi-term is over. C-a doesn't do the right thing. 02:49:46 that was quick 02:52:18 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@122.162.184.54] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:52:51 -!- gonzojive [n=red@122.162.185.40] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:54:16 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jcnwmaivrrjqyltx] has joined #lisp 02:55:02 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:50 -!- Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:58:05 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:58:34 alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:51 gonzojive [n=red@122.161.6.223] has joined #lisp 02:59:55 *holycow* googles ansi-term 03:00:31 oh emacs terminal emulator 03:03:52 dcooper8 [n=dcooper8@c-71-205-172-135.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:58 how can I test if an object x is an instance of a class foo? 03:06:01 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.15.110] has joined #lisp 03:06:40 clhs typep 03:06:40 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_typep.htm 03:08:19 great, thanks :) I'm feeling very rusty ^^;; 03:12:08 wouldn't it be nice to be able to exit sbcl with C-c like any other unix process? or is control-c used to terminate sbcl threads 03:12:49 fusss: doesn't it drop you into the LDB? 03:13:20 i was hoping it would terminate sbcl, instead of throwing me in ldb 03:13:27 gonzojive_ [n=red@122.163.201.185] has joined #lisp 03:13:31 fusss: you can use C-d 03:13:32 :) 03:13:49 oath! yeah laynor, didn't know of that one 03:14:17 it's not the same, but betterh than nothign ^^ 03:14:28 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:14:37 also, C-c is useful to break from infinite recursion and stuff like that 03:14:38 :) 03:17:57 oh wow, new slime looks like a nuclear plant command and control center 03:18:05 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:18:37 a new slime is out? 03:18:54 (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-bells-and-whistles)) 03:18:59 slime is always in the wild 03:18:59 <_3b> there is always a new slime out 03:19:00 laynor: I upgraded from the 2007 version 03:19:10 ahh :) 03:19:48 it didn't change that much 03:21:25 -!- gonzojive [n=red@122.161.6.223] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:26:54 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 03:28:48 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 03:29:27 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 03:29:29 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@122.163.201.185] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:30:25 [sbcl/site-systems]$ find ../site -name *.asd -exec ln -s . {} \; 03:30:50 ln -s ../site/*.asd . 03:31:24 */*.asd 03:34:09 stassats`: cheers! :-) 03:34:27 -!- zeroish` [n=zeroish@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:35:08 some people put asds not at the top level, but screw 'em 03:35:19 yeah, screw me 03:37:09 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:38:05 gonzojive [n=red@122.161.150.63] has joined #lisp 03:39:44 holycow [n=new@64.151.208.1] has joined #lisp 03:41:04 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 03:41:24 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:25 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@pool-71-187-87-202.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:51:18 register [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 03:51:46 -!- register is now known as Guest91875 03:54:24 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-181-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:56 kwertii [n=kwertii@67.180.202.175] has joined #lisp 04:03:29 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:06:46 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:06:53 hi sykopomp 04:06:56 back in the twin cities yet? 04:07:45 slava: coming back this thursday 04:07:45 sykopomp, memo from antoszka: Supposing this webpage is run by you http://sykosomatic.org/tutorial.html just wanted to say, that the PNG files are missing or won't load, or both... 04:08:31 minion: memo for antoszka: Yeah, I was working on that last year, and it's still pretty much a WIP. There's no pings up there yet. 04:08:31 Remembered. I'll tell antoszka when he/she/it next speaks. 04:10:04 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:10:04 -!- Guest91875 is now known as Symmetry- 04:13:13 slava: got plans or something? 04:15:30 any local-time users here? 04:15:45 -!- guenthr [n=unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:15:48 guenthr [n=unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has joined #lisp 04:15:54 minion: local-time? 04:15:55 local-time: local-time is a development library for manipulating date and time information in a semi-standard manner. http://www.cliki.net/local-time 04:15:59 aha 04:15:59 weirdo pasted "local-time weirdness" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85993 04:17:53 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-181-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:20:11 it's strange. for (now) it returns :day-of-week 2 04:20:13 it's tuesday 04:20:24 it should be either 4 or 3 (starting from zero) 04:24:55 lol, it's tuesday 04:25:02 so it works 04:25:56 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:28:20 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:30:56 jauaor [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 04:32:46 gonzojive_ [n=red@122.161.5.8] has joined #lisp 04:35:26 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-193-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:57 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 04:41:04 dv___ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 04:41:18 logBot2545 [n=logBot@59.92.133.161] has joined #lisp 04:41:49 -!- dv___ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Client Quit] 04:42:21 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:23 -!- gonzojive [n=red@122.161.150.63] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:43:35 -!- 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[n=chatzill@ppp118-208-141-225.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:43 Demosthenes [n=demo@12.0.194.2] has joined #lisp 05:30:25 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 05:31:13 -!- holycow [n=new@64.151.208.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:33:44 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:34:10 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 05:35:16 Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 05:37:10 -!- dcooper8 [n=dcooper8@c-71-205-172-135.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #lisp 05:37:44 morganb [n=user@wsip-98-188-196-29.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:38 -!- morganb [n=user@wsip-98-188-196-29.ga.at.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:42:08 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:42:38 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 05:43:05 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest94384 05:44:21 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-181-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:59 -!- logBot2545 [n=logBot@59.92.133.161] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:48:12 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@122.161.5.8] has quit [] 05:51:24 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:55:31 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 05:59:12 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 05:59:14 morning 05:59:44 kwertii [n=kwertii@67.180.202.175] has joined #lisp 06:00:09 howdy 06:00:11 logBot0071 [n=logBot@59.96.204.220] has joined #lisp 06:04:42 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1AC7.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:06:47 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:07:22 -!- est [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 06:07:58 benny [n=benny@i577A1AC7.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:07:58 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:08:20 girzel [n=user@61.51.238.135] has joined #lisp 06:09:37 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:14:24 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.15.110] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:18:12 hi 06:18:28 which is the most used/known/well documented scheme implementation ? 06:20:09 ask #scheme maybe? 06:21:02 sorry, ok 06:21:03 thanks 06:25:52 dcooper8 [n=dcooper8@c-71-205-172-135.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:26:46 -!- Guest94384 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 06:28:39 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.48.106] has joined #lisp 06:29:35 benny` [n=benny@i577A1DCD.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:30:07 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1AC7.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:30:41 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 06:32:00 -!- benny` is now known as benny 06:34:49 eskaypey [n=esk@60-240-250-39.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:35:10 lo 06:36:36 BrianRice` [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:00 gonzojive [n=red@122.163.120.36] has joined #lisp 06:37:03 watching 2001 06:37:19 incredible. film. for 1969. 06:37:37 -!- logBot0071 [n=logBot@59.96.204.220] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:37:56 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:17 alinp, mzscheme 06:39:36 HG` [n=HG@xdsleh221.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:39:37 what about mzscheme? 06:39:45 which is the most used/known/well documented scheme implementation ? 06:39:47 weirdo: thanks 06:39:59 better yet, implement one in common lisp 06:40:36 :) 06:40:37 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:41:05 #scheme 06:41:33 131 people 06:41:40 #clojure 112 06:41:45 #lisp 271 06:42:10 dunno if that means much 06:42:39 implementing r5rs scheme without the srfi's shouldn't take that long 06:42:40 dcooper8: that all CL hackers are still living in the 90s, while everybody else has moved on past IRC? :) 06:43:04 i suppose social networking is the irc of today? 06:43:35 i don't think so 06:43:46 social networking has a lot more fluff 06:44:25 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:44:33 but a discussion group would be nice 06:44:38 what happened to comp.lang.lisp? 06:44:47 i looked at it through google groups and looks like all spam 06:46:02 actually right now it looks ok... 06:46:07 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/topics 06:46:37 -!- gonzojive [n=red@122.163.120.36] has quit [] 06:46:48 one spam item 06:47:08 Fufie [n=innocent@80.203.225.86] has joined #lisp 06:47:18 but do most people still use Gnus for c.l.l.? 06:47:22 good morning 06:49:50 morning, where are you? 06:50:59 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:51:00 dcooper8: Bordeaux, France 06:51:56 google seem to filter the usenet groups for spam only sporadically, dcooper8 .. at one point, the entire page can be filled with spam - a few hours later all the spam messages are gone .. heh :) .. a really good web-based front-end to usenet is missing :/ .. there is http://www.lispforum.com/viewforum.php?f=2 as an alternative to c.l.l. btw. 06:52:06 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:52:06 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 06:52:54 alinp: It's going to be PLT, Chicken or Gambit-C, I guess. 06:53:09 why are you talking about Scheme here? 06:53:24 unless it's somehow in relation to CL 06:53:25 dcooper8: sorry, that was my fault :) 06:53:27 I started it 06:53:34 Axioplase: thanks 06:54:02 *Axioplase* blames alinp and sneakly hides back into the shadows of the channel 06:54:06 Clojure has a nice google group 06:54:12 alinp: you're welcome. 06:54:40 dcooper8: yeah, I know about that 06:54:45 we need to do something to make c.l.l. more accessible like that, or start a google group as well 06:54:48 indeed, the comunity is very nice 06:55:05 google group seems to get preferred treatment 06:55:16 even though in principle they should be identical to Usenet groups 06:55:23 since google bought deja. 06:56:37 -!- eskaypey [n=esk@60-240-250-39.tpgi.com.au] has quit [] 06:56:54 ASau [n=user@host71-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:57:40 lnostdal: this lispforum thingie, does it exchange postings in any way with c.l.l.? 06:57:48 nope, dcooper8 06:57:55 apparently not, from looking at it.. looks like some fairly noobie Qs. 06:58:14 at least some of them 06:58:35 not the sparring matches typical of c.l.l... 06:58:56 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:59:18 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 07:06:03 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:10:18 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:11:45 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:11:51 dcooper8: actually, c.l.l. would be more than happy to receive some non-trollish posts. Don't hesitate to use it (and of course to kill file the unwanted traffic). 07:12:33 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:23 gko [n=gko@114-137-80-128.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:17 Hun [n=Hun@p4FD3CCF4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:17:37 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:18:59 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:58 I don't think my ISP even gives me Usenet anymore... 07:22:24 any good cost-effective way to connect with Gnus? 07:22:43 You can get 1 year of usenet for 10 EUR at individual.net 07:23:27 "German quality"! :-) 07:24:38 thx 07:26:52 i gave up on both ISP and other news server access providers too .. the last free one i used had little spam, but they changed their domain names or something so my client lost track of all the groups i where subscribing to 07:28:08 dwh [n=dwh@ppp121-44-215-7.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:54 i hope something new and not sucky will come along soon tbh. ... maybe the over-hyped Google Wave stuff will improve things .. *shrug* :) 07:29:29 individual.net rules. 07:29:55 vu3rdd [n=user@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 07:30:44 dcooper8: individual.net and gname.org 07:31:00 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-69-232-209-21.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:30 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:41 GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:55 "News" still rules when it comes to long threads... 07:32:31 Now, everything is spread is thousands of Web 2.0 servers, which might disappear overnight... 07:33:45 that's a good point 07:34:10 there's always waybackmachine (& co) but they can't get anything out of sites that use ajax to fetch content :( 07:34:22 does gmane mirror c.l.l.? 07:34:40 (i use gmane to read sbcl-devel etc. .. it's nice) 07:34:43 I don't think so... 07:35:27 For Usenet: individual.net, for others: gmane.org 07:37:35 lnostdal: what is google wave anyways? one of my friends ranted about it for half an hour a few days ago... 07:38:26 I am considering writing a program in lisp with a *very large* data footprint. I would the application to load about 10 to 20 GB of data into RAM. After loading, this data would be pretty much static. I would just be reading and using pieces of it as needed to fulfill requests. I know that I can write the heavy memory allocation code in C and treat that as a library for the lisp code (been there, done that). But ideally, I would lik 07:38:26 make it lisp from top to bottom. Is this even possible? Or are there practical difficulties that are too much of a barrier? 07:38:52 Adlai, i don't know .. i never got to see that long video presentation .. it's about communication and, stuff 07:38:54 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 07:39:36 mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:39:51 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:39:52 GreatPatham: yes, it's definitely possible. 07:39:58 -!- mvillene1ve is now known as mvilleneuve 07:41:11 Wave: well suited for collaboration ... 07:41:27 Do systems struggle garbage collecting such a large memory footprint (though it is very static)? I know generational GC is good, but... 07:41:40 Instead of communicating through email -> write it in shared document 07:42:07 afaik that isn't wave 07:42:18 that's just docs 07:42:40 shared document *in real time* 07:42:48 wave is something like a twitter feed but threaded, enhanced with different kind of media 07:42:50 GreatPatham: I think it depends on the implementation, at that point. 07:43:05 or then i completely misunderstood the google wave presentation 07:43:10 with versioning 07:43:27 anyway, it's collaboration ware.. 07:43:31 most implementations expose the GC's settings, though. 07:43:40 I am using SBCL at the moment. Do you know if it is good for such a large footprint? 07:44:15 I can see that it has some command line settings that are relevant, but that doesn't mean it will work *well* 07:44:49 Just wondering if anyone has any relevant experience with this kind of thing. Thanks for any comments, tips, etc. 07:45:03 I'm not sure about how SBCL scales up to those sizes... 07:45:46 is this a commercial project? You might want to look into one of the commercial implementations. I'm sure that they offer support for large projects. 07:45:56 -!- kwertii [n=kwertii@67.180.202.175] has quit ["bye"] 07:47:51 GreatPatham: in ACL, you can close oldspaces. 07:47:53 I plan for it to be commercial, but for now it is just me, and maybe another guy putting in extra time to work on it. I looked a while back at commercial licenses and didn't get a warm fuzzy feeling from them. 07:48:01 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-55-207-173.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:48:18 so after you load your data and apps you can close the oldspaces then they don't get considered for gc 07:48:31 i suppose sbcl might have a way to do that as well 07:48:41 They were expensive, and I am disinclined to pay that kind of money for a part time project---Of course, sometimes you have to pay to get what you need... 07:49:10 dcooper: That's a very interesting possibility 07:49:24 Scieneer offers a full-featured trial, which you could use to check it out and see if it has the right features before you actually buy a license. 07:49:38 (ACL and Lispworks have limited-feature trials...) 07:49:49 Closing GC on initially loaded static data would be perfectly feasible for this app if the implementation supports that) 07:50:45 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229142080.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:54:40 logBot7843 [n=logBot@59.92.173.230] has joined #lisp 07:55:45 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:56:11 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp121-44-215-7.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:56:25 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:19 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.48.106] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:04:19 is that really needed when doing generational GC? .. i mean; sb-ext:purify is marked as a no-op on x86, x-64 and ppc 08:04:32 ..on sbcl that is 08:05:54 i think i saw someone doing mmap type work using sbcl recently .. on huge amounts of data .. maybe that's not something you can or want to do though 08:06:18 (..someone on sbcl-devel or sbcl-help, i think..) 08:07:52 mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:11:00 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:11:38 -!- GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:11:55 -!- mvillene1ve is now known as mvilleneuve 08:15:27 manuel [n=manuel@pD9E6D055.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:15:30 Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has joined #lisp 08:20:53 -!- xan__ is now known as xan-afk 08:22:40 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 08:26:54 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6D055.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:28:25 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.55.23] has joined #lisp 08:30:10 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@c-76-21-5-11.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:31:57 -!- a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:32:50 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-181-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:33:08 a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has joined #lisp 08:34:29 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:35:07 -!- ASau [n=user@host71-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:35:25 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:35:30 -!- manuel [n=manuel@pD9E6D055.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:39:44 -!- logBot7843 [n=logBot@59.92.173.230] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:40:25 ASau [n=user@host71-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 08:40:32 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D055.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:41:31 prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 08:41:37 mathrick [n=mathrick@90-224-55-34-no56.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:41:52 fgtech [n=federico@host94-170-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:43:15 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:46:29 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:48:34 -!- ASau [n=user@host71-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["Reboot."] 08:49:18 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 08:50:59 good morning 08:51:43 morning 08:52:19 logBot0048 [n=logBot@59.92.178.167] has joined #lisp 08:54:45 What's recommended for FFI? 08:55:03 ASau [n=user@host71-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 08:55:32 It seems just from lurking around as though CFFI is recommended over UFFI, but looking into this stuff more closely I see that there are also "grovelling" tools. Is one of those recommended? 08:55:37 CFFI seems to have its own too. 08:55:46 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:56:15 jess [n=user@p2162-ipbf6607marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:56:39 -!- jess [n=user@p2162-ipbf6607marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has left #lisp 08:57:37 Adlai: CFFI is recommended for portable FFI, some of the groveling tools generate CFFI code, some generate implementation specific stuff (SWIG does ACL, CFFI and UFFI) 08:58:31 p_l: yes, I'm definitely looking for portability... I want to "outsource" all my portability problems to the CFFI (or other library) maintainers :) 08:59:21 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 09:02:39 p_l: is CFFI-Grovel preferable over, say, SWIG? 09:03:28 dunno 09:03:41 from groveling/generating tools I only used SWIG 09:04:29 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 09:05:14 well, I should really learn more about writing FFI code in general before I choose a specific tool, altohugh I think CFFI seems standard enough. 09:07:00 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:07:33 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-193-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:08:43 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.55.23] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:09:31 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@95.65.241.70] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:09:39 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 09:11:08 rdd [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has 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#lisp 11:04:03 "morning" 11:04:48 htk_ [n=htk___@95.65.241.70] has joined #lisp 11:06:20 morning Xof 11:07:50 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 11:09:58 est [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 11:11:51 serichse2 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-186-109.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:12:56 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-114.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:13:31 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 11:14:00 tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:14:12 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 11:16:16 -!- serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-153-113.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:18:07 fgtech [n=federico@host94-170-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:19:42 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 11:24:12 ausente [n=user5442@189-19-116-156.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 11:27:03 pdenno [n=pdenno@bigfuzz.mxnet.mel.nist.gov] has joined #lisp 11:28:26 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:28:40 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-186-109.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:29:36 -!- Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has quit [] 11:31:58 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 11:38:48 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jcnwmaivrrjqyltx] has left #lisp 11:39:06 -!- logBot4393 [n=logBot@59.92.178.167] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:39:18 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.219.232] has joined #lisp 11:39:58 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@95.65.241.70] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:40:32 logBot1592 [n=logBot@59.92.178.167] has joined #lisp 11:42:33 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 11:45:01 Urfin [n=user@87.69.0.39] has joined #lisp 11:47:55 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 11:49:06 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:49:14 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:51:27 pluijzer [n=iisjmii@dhcp-077-248-127-112.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 11:52:32 Is there a way to get the returned value of a before method? 11:53:00 Apart from storing it somewhere, I don't think so. 11:53:13 thanks 11:57:32 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 11:58:33 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:58:54 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:02:50 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:06:47 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:08 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.130] has quit ["so long.."] 12:13:02 Hi everyone. 12:13:05 danlei [n=user@pD954F2BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:52 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:16:35 I heve a file filled with one-word strings: (defparameter *uw* (open "unique-words.txt")). If I type (read *uw*), one word is displayed. So, why won't this work: (loop for words in (read *uw*) collect words) 12:17:47 lat: because "one word" isn't a list. 12:17:49 lat: you get an error at the end-of-file, right? 12:18:02 oh, right. that too. 12:18:28 lat: use '= instead of 'in... but that's not the only problem with your code :) 12:18:46 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:12 Adlai, what else is wrong? 12:20:45 the loop will never terminate properly, and I think you'll get an error at the EOF 12:24:21 I just want to read the whole file into memory as a list. How do I do that? 12:24:53 clhs read 12:24:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_rd.htm 12:25:03 lat: also, strings are not symbols. If your file contains words one per line, you can use (read-line stream), otherwise you'll have to read each line and split the words yourself. Notice how by default, READ will upcase the symbols... 12:25:15 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:25:32 If you look in the spec for #'read, (same goes for #'read-line) you'll see how to make it return NIL at the eof 12:25:37 lat: Do not use OPEN. Well, unless you're doing interactive exploration at the REPL. In programs, use WITH-OPEN-FILE. 12:25:59 then you want to add a LOOP clause, so that your loop terminates when you reach the end-of-file 12:27:06 lat: it is often worthwhile to use a value that _cannot_ be read as eof-value. With READ-LINE you can use NIL; with READ it's better to use the stream itself. 12:27:47 matimago: I take "one-word strings" to mean that the file actually has literal strings in it, rather than symbols -- although if the file isn't full of "literal" "strings", then read-line is the way to go, lat 12:30:22 Adlai: I understand, but your sentence is rather ambiguous. It's hard to make it clear. 12:31:16 lat: Often, in files we store the data itself, not a "readable" form (in the lisp sense). The file will contain 'abc', not '"abc". Applying read-line on a file containing 'abc' will give the string "abc". Applying read-line on a file containing '"abc"' will give the string "\"abc\"". Applying read on a file containing 'abc' will give the symbol ABC. Applying read on a file containing '"abc"' will give the string "abc". Have fun! 12:31:30 They are literal strings, with quotation marks. Like ("this" "is" "an" "example") 12:31:43 Ok. Then READ is what you want. 12:31:47 lat: ok, so you could use READ there 12:32:13 (with-open-file (stream "file") (loop for item = (read stream nil stream) until (eq item stream) collect item)) 12:33:13 You could add a :do (check-type item string) before :collect 12:33:17 -!- nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:34:07 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-114.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:34:14 lat: on the other hand, if you also have parentheses in the file as you indicate, then you don't have a file containing strings, but a file containing a sexp, and you can read it at once: (with-open-file (stream "file") (read stream)) 12:35:05 Be wary of nil, as it is often a valid thing to read from a nile. 12:35:08 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-114.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:35:12 er, file. 12:35:41 Zhivago: well matimago's loop example doesn't use NIL as the check -- it uses the stream itself 12:35:57 Zhivago: sure, the Nile is full of nils, (hence the name). Nils are nasty little things, which reproduce either by car or by cdr. 12:36:21 Nils don't reproduce as there is only one of it. 12:36:58 Zhivago: it's a mystery... there is one, and yet each one gives rise to two more. 12:37:00 say that to (defun walk (tree) (append (walk (car tree)) (walk (cdr tree)))) :-) 12:38:13 Wow! That is a lot of help fast. Many thanks to all of you. I will experiment with all of this and get back with you. 12:40:54 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-50-182.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:43:27 Is Corman Lisp still alive? 12:43:44 I.e. is Corman still working on it, supporting it, whatever? 12:43:57 gigamonkey: afaik yes 12:44:20 my only reason behind not using it on win32 is lack of proper unicode support 12:44:24 nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 12:44:24 Seems like the last announcement about it was a couple years ago. 12:44:59 gigamonkey: the company seems to be mostly working on other projects now, but afaik they still support it and quite possibly use it for their products 12:45:20 At any rate, not as dead as this: http://digitool.com/ 12:45:24 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-54.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:46:04 hehe 12:46:25 still, Corman had the nicest license of all commercial implementations that I have ever seen 12:49:01 and comes with source :3 12:50:41 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-51-254.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:53:30 Does anyone know what Edi Weitz's PhD is in? 12:54:48 "Untersuchungen uber die Grundlagen pcf-Theorie von Saharon Shelah" 12:54:55 (mathematics) 12:55:26 gigamonkey: judging from his library names... opera? 12:55:31 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:50 PhD in zappa 12:56:46 specifically, set theory and arithmetic, as best I can read the dissertation 12:57:26 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:58:06 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 13:02:35 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host94-170-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:06:53 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:09:02 Xof: are you familiar with Symbolic Composer? 13:09:19 no 13:09:54 oh, but I am familiar with someone who wrote one of the blurbs on their website 13:09:54 Someone who has something to do with Symbolic Composer has released some Common Lisp source code. It looks music-related. 13:10:16 I think it's possible that I've come across this software before 13:10:35 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:10:53 http://januszpodrazik.com/software/downloads/ is the page that prompted the question 13:10:54 I was at a Maths & Music conference a while back, where lots of music theorists were talking about using symmetries and algorithmic composition methods 13:11:02 I guess that I might have seen it there (or an advert for it, or something) 13:11:20 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:11:32 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-171-218.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:12:00 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:12:16 I might be interested in the code; my musical opinion is that the use of this kind of approach to composition is almost always misguided :-) 13:12:44 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 13:12:53 surely auto-generated music is just as great as auto-generated documentation! 13:13:30 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-99-152.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:13:55 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 13:14:16 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B28F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:14:55 quite 13:15:33 except that one valid use of autogenerated documentation is to say to a client who doesn't actually care, "yes, this is fully documented"; it's difficult to argue that for auto-generated music 13:16:22 "yes, this is fully musicated." 13:16:33 There, that wasn't so hard. 13:16:56 `Brawndo is what plants crave. It's got electrolytes.' 13:17:24 gigamonkey: my current RA's PhD was in automatic generation of music to accompany films, yes 13:18:16 that sounds challenging. 13:19:18 jleija [n=jleija@24.214.122.46] has joined #lisp 13:20:45 He should kick it old school and and generate rolls for a player piano. 21st century meets silent film era. 13:21:36 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:00 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 13:23:17 and a standard Rollers at Work question would be "did you know about the diagonal marker trick?" 13:27:24 v0|d [n=user@213.232.33.243] has joined #lisp 13:28:18 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #lisp 13:28:56 i'm looking for lisp source lib ie beta reduction 13:28:58 any ideas 13:29:11 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:29:36 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:39 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 13:30:38 elliotstern [n=chatzill@pool-71-187-87-202.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:51 v0|d: beta reduction for what language? :p 13:31:03 cl 13:31:28 minion: tell v0|d about cl-walker 13:31:29 v0|d: please look at cl-walker: cl-walker (home page) is a library that implements an sexp => CLOS AST tree transformation (and vice versa). http://www.cliki.net/cl-walker 13:31:41 i'm using that 13:32:15 surely it's an easy project with the walker already implemented 13:32:50 yes i've written one (ie poor v0|d's one) last night. 13:32:55 wondering if somebody else also did. 13:33:08 well, every lisp compiler has one 13:33:19 sure 13:33:29 other than that, I'm not aware of any 13:33:37 btw that walker lacks form successors. 13:33:50 ie what inner forms does that form have? 13:34:53 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:35:20 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-2-5.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:38:49 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-69-232-209-21.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:38:59 pdo [n=user@217.33.254.141] has joined #lisp 13:40:43 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:47 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.6.191] has joined #lisp 13:41:22 'morning 13:41:34 Xof: another type of cross-compiler leakage: CL constants in macros. 13:42:04 really? How? 13:42:36 Build x86 on an x86-64 host, disassemble %unary-truncate/single-float. 13:42:53 The constants are for 64 bit most-fooative-fixnum. 13:43:14 bah, that's not "how" 13:43:28 No, it's the "really". 13:43:42 *Xof* looks 13:44:10 oh, I see 13:44:38 OK, I don't think that's fundamentally different, though it is something that my previous grep didn't find 13:44:50 changing them to sb!xc:most-fooative-fixnum should cure that 13:44:54 yup. 13:45:05 good catch 13:48:05 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 13:49:40 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-99-152.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:50:10 and fixes two failing contribs. 13:50:24 Xach: what's the unit in set-line-width in vecto? 13:50:45 same as everything else: pixels. 13:51:24 Hmmm. Those are some fat pixels. 13:51:37 url me 13:52:48 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:52:50 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/tmp/new-caw.png the horizontal lines are (set-line-width 1) 13:53:45 any scaling in effect? 13:53:55 what is the color in use? 13:54:20 (set-rgb-stroke 1 1 1) 13:54:26 Dunno about scaling. Not on purpose anyway. 13:54:34 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@pool-71-187-87-202.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:54:36 gigamonkey: do those lines look white to you? :) 13:55:00 that's a side-effect of anti-aliasing 13:55:19 it's drawing two rows of pixels with half intensity 13:55:23 gigamonkey pasted "vecto code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86008 13:55:32 you could adjust by a half pixel to make it really white 13:56:00 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.6.191] has left #lisp 13:56:02 *gigamonkey* is black-white color blind ;-) 13:56:22 i can't wait to see the halo on that thing 13:56:26 "adjust by half pixel" meaning? (set-line-width .5) ? 13:56:32 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:57:02 gigamonkey: nope 13:57:12 you have to displace the coordinates of 0.5 13:57:15 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:16 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 13:57:17 gigamonkey: more like (move-to origin-x (+ h 0.5)) 13:57:26 I had this problem when drawing grids with cairo 13:57:39 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 13:58:23 Xach: so are you going to write the halo code or are you expecting me to figure it out? 13:58:24 pkhuong: you have my blessing to merge that :) 13:59:01 gigamonkey: it's basically drawing the blue again, but with a wider line width and (set-rgba-stroke 0.5) or similar 13:59:37 Xof: I have a 4-5 more bugfixes to merge in. 13:59:45 the line cap might need adjustment...their original chart seemed to have :bevel as the line cap 13:59:51 oops, i mean line join. 14:01:38 So can I just always do that .5 pixel displacement. Or is there some way to know when I need to do it other than by looking at the output? 14:02:20 Reload my url. 14:03:08 0.5 is probably too much 14:03:20 0.2 might be less gaudy 14:03:32 hm, is it reasonable to mark *random-state* as sb-ext:always-bound? .. pkhuong / Xof / anyone ? 14:03:42 ..just following that optimization thread on c.l.l. here 14:04:00 ..perhaps it would make no difference at all 14:04:01 lnostdal: if you need that, it's much smarter to bind it to a lexical variable. 14:04:29 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:04:42 gigamonkey: you also might want to clip to your chart area 14:04:48 ohyeah .. and pass that to the random call, then? .. ok 14:04:55 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-114.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:05:01 And if you really need many uniforms in a vector, it'd be even better to implement SFMT with intrinsics. 14:06:08 gigamonkey: the coordinate system origin lies between the sampling points ("pixels"), so if you draw a horizontal or vertical line on integer offsets from the origin, it will influence two rows or columns of sampling points. if you want it to really only cross one row of pixels, you have to adjust. 14:07:13 So to me that says, whenever drawing horizontal and vertical lines, adjust by .5. 14:07:32 -!- bob_f [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has left #lisp 14:08:16 well, if you want them to look like they're exactly one pixel wide or tall, yeah. 14:08:29 (translate 0.5 0.5) could be helpful too. 14:08:48 segv [n=mb@p4FC1C421.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:59 Less gaudy now. 14:09:31 So in my code, where should the call to CLIP-PATH go? I tried right after I the call to rectangle but no dice. 14:10:13 *Xach* checks the manual 14:10:29 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:11:07 gigamonkey: http://xach.com/lisp/vecto/#clip-path has the details 14:11:24 Yeah. I read that. 14:11:53 That's why I put it after the call to RECTANGLE and before FILL-AND-STROKE. 14:12:08 Is it supposed to affect subsequent drawing commands? 14:12:13 It should take effect after fill-and-stroke. 14:12:32 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 14:12:49 But the halo is still sticking out on the left 14:13:30 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:39 Hmm, can you paste your updated code? 14:14:54 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:15:20 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 14:15:52 gigamonkey annotated #86008 "code with clip-path" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86008#1 14:16:06 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:16:40 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:19:42 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32BD02.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:01 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Client Quit] 14:20:17 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p4FD3CCF4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:20:25 -!- Grey_Fox [n=chatzill@ppp118-208-141-225.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:21:15 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32BD02.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:55 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Client Quit] 14:22:03 gigamonkey: looks like a bug in vecto. end-path-no-op works. 14:23:15 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32BD02.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:18 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:23:59 So can I just throw a call to e-p-n-o before or after fill-and-stroke? 14:24:21 gigamonkey: you will need to do a separate rectangle to establish the clipping path 14:24:49 it'd be (rectangle ...) (fill-and-stroke) (rectangle ...) (clip-path) (e-p-n-o) 14:24:56 Got it. 14:25:33 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.6.191] has joined #lisp 14:25:56 *Xach* will try to put out a fixed vecto today 14:26:07 blAckEn3d [n=me@LNeuilly-152-22-24-189.w193-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:26:37 Now less gaudy, less obtrusive gridlines, and clipped path. 14:26:46 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:27:12 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:27:12 the original chart is gone from their blog! eek 14:27:20 oh noes! 14:27:27 -!- blAckEn3d [n=me@LNeuilly-152-22-24-189.w193-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 14:27:44 -!- tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:28:14 the halo now looks a little *too* subtle on yours. i wanted to compare to theirs. 14:32:40 krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-28-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:34:01 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-2-5.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:39:07 fgtech [n=federico@host94-170-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:39:26 Is there an easy way to get the ex hight of a font in Vecto? 14:40:17 Or is that just always the font size? 14:40:27 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:35 Or is that an em? I'm confused. 14:40:54 gigamonkey: For that, I measure characters. 14:41:10 (that might not be the right thing to do) 14:41:16 there's not something built-in to vecto for it 14:42:55 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:43:55 measure glyphs, rather 14:44:22 -!- vu3rdd [n=user@164.164.250.10] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:44:38 sepulte [n=user@xdsl-87-78-129-99.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:45:35 milanj [n=milan@93.87.150.97] has joined #lisp 14:45:57 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-54.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:46:13 -!- sepulte is now known as sepult 14:46:30 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Operation timed out] 14:46:49 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:47:49 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:50:11 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@12.0.194.2] has quit ["leaving"] 14:50:14 robyonrails [n=roby@host4-243-dynamic.27-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:51:27 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:51:35 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host4-243-dynamic.27-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 14:52:22 -!- ASau [n=user@host71-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 14:52:36 I'm having trouble working with CFFI.. 14:53:12 I tried doing the tutorial in the CFFI manual, but when I got to the end, it just returned an empty string. So I checked my code again and then ran an (asdf:oos 'asdf:test-op :cffi) 14:53:21 ... which is failing. 14:54:50 Adlai pasted "error while testing CFFI" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86012 14:55:33 it's not an actual error 14:56:09 now I can see from REPL output that gcc is being told to load libtest32.so, but I'm on a 64-bit system... is that the problem? 14:56:42 Bah, text is rendered in rgb-fill not rgb-stroke. 14:56:42 stassats: I can see that it's a compile problem, with gcc compiling cffi's test code 14:57:01 No wonder my text wasn't showing up. 14:57:27 tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 14:58:45 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:59:14 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 15:01:03 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:01:08 I've seen I have to define print-object to format my objects, what about reading them? 15:01:42 clhs make-load-form 15:01:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ld_.htm 15:01:52 not exactly reading 15:03:18 laynor: you could also define readmacros, but then god will smite a kitten. 15:03:35 ^^; 15:03:39 thanks :) 15:04:06 -!- tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:04:13 I guess I'll just implement a little parser 15:04:14 #.(make-instance ...) ? 15:05:29 ehhh any idea how I can get CFFI to work and/or pass the tests? 15:07:07 stassats: I'm coding an rpn calculator, so a parser is the easiest thing I think 15:07:13 to process the input, that is. 15:07:31 Adlai annotated #86012 "repl dump" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86012#1 15:07:36 -!- prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:07:53 but make-load-form seems good to dump the stack 15:08:33 Adlai: what part of that error message you don't understand? 15:09:20 auclairb [n=auclairb@modemcable171.174-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:09:36 http://packages.debian.org/search?suite=sid&arch=any&mode=path&searchon=contents&keywords=stubs-32.h 15:10:00 well, I'm actually more concerned about getting the tutorial example to work 15:11:11 but it's just really confusing that the tests don't work either 15:11:35 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-194.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:11:39 because you don't have headers it wants? 15:11:43 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-194.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 15:12:00 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-194.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:12:19 -!- FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:12:47 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-39-5-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:02 ehhh it's weird because I have all the basic C libs 15:14:10 Adlai: for 64 bit builds. 15:14:50 the CFFI tests only work for 32-bit platforms? 15:15:30 just install headers and run tests 15:15:40 For some reason (e.g. you're running on a 32 bit lisp or your uname is misleading), CFFI is trying to compile a 32 bit library 15:15:43 Does Vladimir Sedach ever hang out here? 15:15:47 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:16:14 You don't have the tools for 32 bit builds, so that step fails. You haven't given enough information to determine whether the choice of a 32 bit so is correct or not. 15:16:34 makefile says it does that on purpose 15:16:50 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 15:16:52 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@modemcable171.174-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 15:18:08 crna_ofca [n=chatzill@alpha.linux.hr] has joined #lisp 15:18:54 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-55-207-173.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:28 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["while I'm ahead"] 15:25:08 hello all 15:25:36 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-16-74.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:25:53 CFFI compiles a 32-bit test library because some lisps don't have 32-bit versions 15:25:56 Beef [n=Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 15:26:02 I mean, don't have 64-bit versions 15:26:17 -!- Beef is now known as yvdriess 15:26:58 -!- krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-28-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:27:30 you can comment that stuff out in the Makefile 15:29:54 I've got stubs.h and stubs-64.h in that directory. Should I just change to one of those? 15:31:11 Adlai: what Lisp are you using? 15:31:24 luis: CCL 15:31:38 64-bit, right? 15:31:47 pkhuong: by all means merge tasteful bugfixes 15:31:53 aha, I just tried plain commenting out that makefile rule, and the tests run just fine. 15:31:57 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32DFBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:04 5 failures, but no unexpected failures. 15:32:06 ok, cool. 15:32:24 thanks everybody... sorry for the slightly ignorant moaning earlier 15:32:39 now that I know CFFI is working, I need to get the tutorial example to work... 15:33:32 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:34:14 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 15:35:48 manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6E8C5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:21 KingNato [n=patno@84-217-7-123.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:23 silas428 [n=ryan@67.182.172.128] has joined #lisp 15:38:29 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan_ 15:40:07 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:42:46 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:42:57 good evening, everyone. 15:44:35 hm, I can't figure out why the CFFI tutorial isn't working 15:45:01 Adlai: what's up? 15:45:14 I'm trying to do the CFFI tutorial, from the CFFI manual 15:45:40 when I tell it to fetch a URL, it pauses for a few seconds, as though it's fetching a URL, but then I just get an empty string. 15:46:03 besiria [n=user@pantou.lib.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 15:47:20 What platform, and what's the libcurl version? 15:48:15 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-47-39.w90-59.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:49:32 platform = CCL on Linux x86_64, libcurl = 7.19.6 15:51:40 Adlai: are you using Ubuntu? 15:52:01 luis: anything but... I'm on Arch. 15:52:31 ls -l /usr/lib/libcurl.so.3 points where? 15:52:46 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:53:01 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D055.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Network is unreachable] 15:53:27 There isn't a libcurl.so.3, but: /usr/lib/libcurl.so -> libcurl.so.4.1.1 15:53:35 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.6.191] has left #lisp 15:53:45 so I guess I need to look up new options to set? 15:54:06 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:54:41 I don't know. I have to leave now, but I'll try the example out later today. 15:54:52 Adlai: let me know if you succeed in the meantime. 15:55:03 luis: ok, thanks for your help so far :) 15:55:34 skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has joined #lisp 15:56:18 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 15:57:16 krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-93-14.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:01:47 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B28F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:49 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:03:41 Scraggy [n=chatzill@78.144.163.205] has joined #lisp 16:03:47 -!- Scraggy [n=chatzill@78.144.163.205] has left #lisp 16:04:12 -!- pdo [n=user@217.33.254.141] has left #lisp 16:06:33 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:08:14 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host94-170-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:08:32 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-181-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:43 bashyal [n=bashyal@ip67-95-202-227.z202-95-67.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:08 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:11:37 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-16-74.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:13:44 -!- pluijzer [n=iisjmii@dhcp-077-248-127-112.chello.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:16:04 -!- jauaor [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [] 16:21:45 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:22:07 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:22:26 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:22:27 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:17 -!- KingNato [n=patno@84-217-7-123.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [] 16:23:32 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable065.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:23:35 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 16:28:09 -!- besiria [n=user@pantou.lib.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:29:20 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit ["Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"] 16:30:41 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-194.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 16:32:00 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:42:01 fgtech [n=federico@host94-170-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:44:43 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:45:44 -!- krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-93-14.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:46:04 -!- HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:46:14 krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-61-108.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:46:25 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:38 Dodek [n=dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has joined #lisp 16:50:28 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:52:09 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-5-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:52:43 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:24 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-181-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:59:02 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:36 rdd [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:59:54 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 17:00:52 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6E8C5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 17:03:28 I need some SBCL/FP trapping expert help 17:04:15 I'm trying to wrap around a C lib called GEGL (via CFFI), and I have a problem, as calling gegl_init from SBCL results in a FLOATING-POINT-INVALID-OPERATION 17:04:29 the same thing from C works fine 17:04:42 hold on. x86(-64) right? 17:04:43 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:04:46 x86, yes 17:05:15 with-float-traps-masked 17:05:33 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6E8C5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:36 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 17:05:48 to rule out my wonky CFFI skills, I moved all the hackery (the function takes &argc and &argv) to the C side and made it all a single int gegl_test (void) call 17:05:59 and it still happens 17:06:12 the C and Lisp floating point traps at startup are different 17:06:35 luis pasted "FP traps" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86020 17:06:39 Krystof: yes, that's the second part of my question, do you know how to make GCC trap the same thing? 17:06:51 mathrick: what Krystof said. This is what we use in cl-glut. 17:06:53 man fesetenv 17:06:53 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for fesetenv. 17:06:54 -!- silas428 [n=ryan@67.182.172.128] has left #lisp 17:06:55 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:07:05 stupid specbot 17:07:16 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 17:07:35 -!- est [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:07:52 est [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 17:09:12 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 17:09:38 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:09:41 Krystof: aha, and is it expected that GEGL is pretty much broken after it traps? I assume the trap is more or less equivalent to unwinding the stack under its feet? 17:10:01 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:12 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 17:11:33 mathrick: yeah, 'fraid so 17:12:03 ok, will try with masked FPE 17:12:18 hey, mathrick! 17:12:27 tic: hey 17:12:46 htk_ [n=htk___@95.65.241.70] has joined #lisp 17:12:48 *mathrick* notes that tic and beach are both fine chaps 17:13:07 *tic* makes a similar note on mathrick & beach. 17:13:26 tic: got your limp installed? 17:14:04 mathrick, the reason for not being able to use Limp for that was that I was working on the Lisp /inside/ Vim, e.g. akin to elisp. So Limp wouldn't do me any good. 17:14:20 tic: I must say I was very happy when it turned out the conductor on the train to Copenhagen turned out to speak Danish and not Swedish :) 17:14:21 (but I was too tired to realize that was why I did it the messy way) 17:14:23 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 17:14:30 mathrick, haha, yay. 17:16:40 laynor_ [n=laynor@93.107.143.231] has joined #lisp 17:20:44 what do you know, apparently (function_name args) is not valid C 17:21:00 Incredible! 17:21:08 -!- yvdriess [n=Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:21:15 Oh my! 17:21:34 yes, it was a surprise to me too 17:24:04 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-087-052.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:20 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:24:50 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 17:28:08 -!- laynor [n=laynor@93.107.138.62] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:30:55 hmm, so I called feenableexcept(FE_ALL_EXCEPT);, tested that it actually works by trapping on 0.0 / 0.0, and it still doesn't seem to catch whatever Lisp is seeing there 17:31:31 is there anything else I can do to catch more? 17:31:38 -!- uman is now known as uman_readingmaps 17:32:43 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:34:50 andrewks [n=aks@ottawa-hs-209-217-123-33.d-ip.magma.ca] has joined #lisp 17:38:30 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.79.254] has joined #lisp 17:38:33 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:38:36 ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:19 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has joined #lisp 17:42:47 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 17:43:14 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-50-182.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:44:53 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:45:10 Quadrescence [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #lisp 17:45:42 bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #lisp 17:47:08 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.150.97] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:48:23 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:51:06 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:56:17 -!- est [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 17:56:33 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954F2BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:56:43 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:58:11 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:02:37 danlei [n=user@pD954F2BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:04 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:30 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:11:52 -!- logBot1592 [n=logBot@59.92.178.167] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:12:57 moocow [n=new@65.61.237.53] has joined #lisp 18:15:06 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:15:18 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:15:49 gigamonk`: did you see that there's a new adw-charting? 18:16:03 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:53 est [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 18:17:09 rread_ [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:20 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 18:18:49 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 18:20:24 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 18:21:42 -!- moocow [n=new@65.61.237.53] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 18:23:28 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6E8C5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 18:24:12 Xach: I emailed him. His bug report was a good motivator to wrap it up 18:24:12 ryepup, memo from gigamonkey: Does this make any sense to you http://paste.lisp.org/display/85931 ? 18:24:42 hello, stranger! 18:25:09 how about a bug report for your blog? 18:25:54 ryepup annotated #85931 "bug has been fixed" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85931#2 18:26:06 Xach: there's already one out to dreamhost 18:26:14 Xach: I'm getting what I pay for 18:26:30 heh 18:27:13 a friend of a friend of a friend told me an anecdote about dreamhost admins fixing their netapp drive faults by taking the disk out, blowing on it, and putting it back in, like a recalcitrant nintendo cartridge. 18:27:50 Nintendo Certified System Engineers, perhaps 18:27:50 nice 18:27:58 lol 18:28:26 but did it work? 18:28:54 not in my case, apparently 18:29:25 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:54 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdsleh221.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:35:29 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1CBB8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:28 mmm dreamhost. I should move my site over to my home server. 18:37:30 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:38:03 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-rrjfyujcgydcidvj] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:38:03 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 18:39:49 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:40:19 -!- p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:41:10 p8m [n=user@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 18:43:18 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-woxcuowhqmvexlrh] has joined #lisp 18:48:49 willima [n=willima@ool-457e27a6.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:19 kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:44 any suggestions on how to generate the leading excerpt from an html page ? I am creating a search page which shows up html documents and want to generate a 3-4 line starting contents of the page (very similar to what shows up in real search engines) 18:53:01 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:55:47 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 18:57:21 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:58:18 ryepup: you cannot repair a device by merely hiting it (or blowing it) without knowing what you're doing. 18:58:44 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has joined #lisp 18:59:34 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:02:37 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 19:03:25 pjb: you might want to note that "blowing" != "blowing on" :) 19:03:49 Oops. 19:04:10 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [] 19:04:13 first you hit on the device, then you blow it. Sounds like a reasonable repair plan. 19:04:48 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:04:55 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 19:05:48 blitz_ [n=blitz@92.116.29.46] has joined #lisp 19:05:53 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@92.116.29.46] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:06:14 blitz_ [n=blitz@92.116.29.46] has joined #lisp 19:12:36 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 19:13:10 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 19:13:37 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:14:05 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:16:07 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 19:22:13 francogrex [n=franco@91.178.114.83] has joined #lisp 19:23:09 is there a group-by utility to group items in a list? 19:25:47 define "group" 19:26:51 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@92.116.29.46] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:27:14 well, items that share some attribute, meaning I could apply a function to each item and then kinda-collect all items with same results 19:27:46 so I guess items whose function result are eql 19:28:08 then return a list of those groups (lists) 19:28:23 I thought it might be a common problem to be already solved in some library 19:28:45 i don't think it's common 19:29:31 I'm starting to write mine anyways 19:29:35 thanks 19:30:19 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 19:31:13 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:34 thunk [n=user@74-130-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 19:31:38 -!- DrForr_ is now known as DrForr 19:31:51 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host94-170-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:32:08 -!- thunk [n=user@74-130-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has left #lisp 19:32:10 manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6E8C5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:27 tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 19:32:49 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:33:08 -!- zenbalrog [n=johnnyc@adsl-75-5-181-47.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["[BX] Hrm... I wonder if I paid this month's electr...EOF From client"] 19:33:10 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:33:27 jleija: series has a collect-hash that might do almost what you want 19:33:56 angerman [n=angerman@host42.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:34:02 *jleija* goes to check collect-hash 19:34:14 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:36:51 -!- est [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:37:12 est [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 19:37:23 jleija: actually, scratch that. It doesn't do what you want. 19:38:12 because each input pair overrides earlier associations 19:38:35 yeah, I'm just reading that too 19:39:24 too bad there is no option for aggregation/append 19:39:28 thanks anyways 19:39:45 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@ip67-95-202-227.z202-95-67.customer.algx.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:39:56 it' 19:40:05 it'd be really easy to make a function in series that did so, though 19:40:56 it seems to require a reconfiguration of my brain, though 19:41:19 but it seems like a fun thing to do 19:41:29 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:41:39 wedgeV [n=wedge@cpe90-146-32-187.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 19:42:02 spage [n=shawnpag@rrcs-70-62-96-98.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:42:09 -!- seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:42:50 blitz_ [n=blitz@92.116.21.131] has joined #lisp 19:44:16 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:46:34 GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:50 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:33 loxs [n=loxs@78.90.124.182] has joined #lisp 19:48:58 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6E8C5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 19:49:11 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@95.65.241.70] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:49:28 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:49:29 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-5-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:28 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 19:50:34 Xach: herep 19:51:12 hello there 19:51:30 Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 19:53:39 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:53:39 not for long, though. 19:54:29 bashyal [n=bashyal@ip67-95-202-227.z202-95-67.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:32 *Xach* prods gigamonkey 19:54:35 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B28F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:55:00 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:55:13 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has joined #lisp 19:55:55 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 19:56:15 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:56:24 Yo. Sorry. 19:56:32 Uh, crap. What was my question. 19:56:47 Probably a vecto shortcoming. 19:56:54 -!- pdenno [n=pdenno@bigfuzz.mxnet.mel.nist.gov] has left #lisp 19:56:57 Something vector related. 19:57:01 vecto, even. 19:57:21 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-129-99.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:57:24 Ah, why is it (and this isn't just vecto) that graphics libs always work by, do thing, do thing, do thing, STROKE. 19:57:30 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:36 Why not just have the "do things" actually do them? 19:57:54 Is it for the difference between stroking and filling and stroking? 19:59:08 -!- ausente is now known as dalton 19:59:11 gigamonkey: Without thinking too hard, I'm not sure. I'm following the model used in postscript, by way of PDF. 19:59:34 rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 19:59:37 gigamonkey: probably cheaper to rasterize? 20:01:21 Now I've got axes labels. http://www.gigamonkeys.com/tmp/new-caw.png 20:01:36 axis? axises? My mind is rotting. 20:01:49 gigamonkey: there's not really any stroking, anyway. it's just converting to slightly *different* paths and filling. 20:03:12 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 20:03:28 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:03:42 Funny that the dimensions I picked for that chart led to 10,000 rank positions being almost exactly the same height as one day is wide. 20:03:53 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:04:02 the halo still looks a wee bit too faint to me 20:04:21 what's today's bump from? 20:04:51 Dunno. 20:05:10 gigamonkey: are you drawing and stroking each individual grid line separately? 20:05:10 It's getting tweeted around a bit. 20:05:28 Hopefully it'll become self sustaining at some point. ;-) 20:05:34 Yes. 20:05:39 Is there another way? 20:05:45 missed the start, what is it a graph of? 20:05:57 Coders at Work sales rank. 20:06:14 aah, why so periodic? 20:06:16 gigamonkey: i'm not sure, but i think you might avoid that brightness at the intersections by drawing all of them, and then stroking. 20:06:32 rvirding: blog post gets a surge of buyers, then it trails off 20:06:36 rvirding: well, it's got a natural decay function ... 20:07:04 My favorite is 8/18 to 8/19 surge. My friend wrote a review which he posted on O'Reilly Radar. 20:07:18 Which the O'Reilly PR machine then lept into action to publicize. 20:07:48 Xach: brighter halo now. 20:08:00 I'll try fixing the grid. 20:08:19 -!- GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:08:39 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 20:08:47 I wish they hadn't removed the original chart. I'd really like to compare. 20:09:15 And now the better grid. 20:09:37 is that a gradient?! 20:09:40 is the line at 18,000 "above here is profit"? 20:09:58 i'm sitting here wondering if my lcd is going losing its vertical angle of view... 20:10:42 Krystof: that's the mean. 20:10:50 Xach: no, the line has a flat blue halo 20:10:54 and there are grid lines 20:11:07 kpreid: the grid lines fade out vertically. 20:11:16 Xach: do you remember whether it was a png or jpeg? 20:11:17 but no gradient. 20:11:19 *kpreid* apologizes for using the return key for punctuation. 20:11:30 gigamonkey: gif 20:11:30 It may be in my cache. 20:11:42 Xach: OK, that's your monitor :) 20:11:57 you're right 20:11:58 gigamonkey: mean salesrank? I question whether that has any meaning 20:12:20 The vertical grid lines are of different intensities, but that's due to antialiasing 20:12:24 -!- xan_ is now known as xan-afk 20:12:31 Krystof: why not? 20:12:34 gigamonkey: you should shift the vertical grid lines to the nearest pixel 20:12:39 horzontals are fine. 20:12:53 kpreid: I thought I did. 20:13:14 -!- hefner [i=hefner@ppp-61-90-82-67.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:13:18 Krystof: if Sales Rank maps (roughly) to books sold per unit time, then mean sales rank gives you your mean books sold per unit time. 20:13:28 gigamonkey: because intuitively I would expect salesrank to be exponential, not linear in any way 20:13:44 Ah. Well, there's that. 20:13:53 I'd expect the difference in salesrank from 100 to 1000 to be of the same order as from 1000 to 10000 20:14:12 in which case you should be taking the geometric, or maybe the harmonic mean 20:14:24 Great. 20:14:27 I'd need to think harder to work out which. Probably geometric 20:14:47 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229142080.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 20:14:59 kpreid: what's wrong with the verticals? 20:15:27 gigamonkey: also, I assume the blue line's halo is a stroke? give it rounded rather than butt corner style 20:15:37 This will make the sharp up and down peaks look better. 20:15:53 And by, "move to the nearest pixel" do you mean the old add .5 to the x or y value? 20:16:02 No, I mean floor/ceiling/round. 20:16:06 kpreid: Xach told me to use :bevel. But I'll try it your way. 20:16:16 gigamonkey: get a pixel viewer and compare, say 8/7 to 8/12, you will see one is halfway and the other is on a pixel 20:16:31 I think the original chart had :bevel. I wish I could see it again. 20:17:33 bashyal_ [n=bashyal@ip67-95-202-227.z202-95-67.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:52 I am an egg, but... those don't look like bevels to me 20:18:08 the sharp cutoffs at the troughs 20:18:22 aha, my firewall is blocking the image host. 20:18:25 *Xach* routes around 20:18:49 maybe there are a lot of points in those neighbourhoods, which is giving you a very tiny bevel? 20:18:50 Krystof: i'm re-using the pdf term for that style of line join 20:19:06 kpreid: there, rounded ends and maybe fixed the verticals. 20:19:49 oh, maybe I am wrong 20:20:24 gigamonkey: now I think all your verticals are antialiased 20:20:36 Krystof: is that good or bad? 20:20:38 http://xach.com/tmp/chart.gif is the original chart. the halo is pretty subtle. perhaps done by hand. 20:21:09 -!- willima [n=willima@ool-457e27a6.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 20:22:01 gigamonkey: I'd say "bad", but I've just proved that I don't know what a bevel looks like 20:23:22 section 4.3.2 of the pdf reference has the illustrations I cribbed 20:23:31 specbot, pdf 4.3.2 20:23:48 Krystof: how about now? 20:25:15 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 20:25:41 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:49 Krystof: according to Wikipedia the geometric mean is always less than or equal to the arithmetic mean. 20:25:49 still looks like two pixels to me 20:26:01 So arithmetic mean is (for my purposes) conservative. 20:26:21 What's a good tool for examining the pixels on Linux? 20:26:27 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:26:31 gigamonkey: right, because time you spend at a mean salesrank minus a bit outweighs time spent at salesrank plus a bit 20:26:35 gigamonkey: xmag 20:27:13 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:09 Xach: where the grids cross is still brighter than the lines, it seems. 20:28:52 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host42.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 20:29:01 Xach: http://xach.com/tmp/chart.gif was done with your skippy? 20:29:48 francogrex: No. It just inspired him. 20:29:54 But he's making me do all the work. ;-) 20:30:22 gigamonkey: because that's quite a cool chart 20:31:11 gigamonkey: well better think that u too work togethjer to make even better lisp 20:31:17 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:31:31 francogrex: here's the one I've made with Vecto http://www.gigamonkeys.com/tmp/new-caw.png 20:31:50 Fare [n=Fare@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:32:28 numbers are too small 20:32:42 gigamonkey: very good stuff. actually I could use these to produce plots for my stat publications and seminars 20:32:54 gigamonkey: according to http://www.fonerbooks.com/surfing.htm, salesrank r in the range 10-100,000 roughly corresponds to sales of 1000/r^{0.4} books per week 20:32:56 I mean such kind of plots 20:34:04 I was mucking about with cl-pdf; quite good but annoyed me that marc is not responding and that the orientation of the xlabs would not be modified 20:34:24 I'm looking for a better one, so'll i'll use xach's vecto 20:34:58 pkhuong, _3b: thanks a lot! with your help, I located the performance bottleneck, eliminated it, and on qres, it now takes 8 seconds instead of 2-4 minutes. 20:35:30 to get an effective average sales rank, sum up 1/r^{0.4}, take the mean of that, then take the 0.4th root of the reciprocal 20:35:34 (just don't try to issue then optimize away hundreds of load-commands for all the dependencies of all the builds you've included) 20:35:46 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@ip67-95-202-227.z202-95-67.customer.algx.net] has quit [Success] 20:36:57 Krystof, nice 20:37:26 Krystof: arithmetic mean, in this case. 20:37:27 ? 20:37:29 yes 20:37:51 And ^ has higher precedence than /? 20:38:28 gigamonkey: did you ever meet/interview mcCarthy? 20:38:36 francogrex: nope. 20:38:46 so the new bottleneck in xcvb runtime is now the string to stream to string to stream bashing that xcvb does for outputting stuff to the Makefile 20:39:08 anyone here has? would like to know what's he like really? 20:39:09 francogrex, there was a nice crowd at the Scheme Workshop 20:39:11 gigamonkey: in this instance, it doesn't matter :) 1^{0.4} is still 1 20:39:36 Fare: what do you mean gigamonkey: so, as an example, sales rank data of 10, 20, 30, 500, 40 gives an average sales rank of 126 (just the mean) but an average effective sales rank of 30.8 20:40:26 Dan Friedman, Mitch Wand, the PLT team, Olin Shivers, Aziz Ghuloum, Aubrey Jaffer, Oleg K & Ken Shan... 20:40:46 Ah. Right. 20:40:58 Maths no longer my strong suit, obviously. 20:41:04 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:41:05 which fits the intuition that the one week of 500 is not a big deal and that the effective average should be in the 30s or 40s 20:41:10 ok; 20:41:23 as a thought experiment, consider changing the 500 to 5000 or 5000000 20:41:46 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:42:15 that should have minimal effect on your effective average sales rank 20:42:26 but it'll blast your mean sales rank out of the water 20:42:54 Krystof: is there a special meaning to the exponent of 0.4? 20:43:02 -!- serichse2 is now known as serichsen 20:43:13 serichse2: yes, it's an empirical datum from http://www.fonerbooks.com/surfing.htm 20:43:50 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:44:02 over the range of sales rank gigamonkey is interested in, sales/week ~ 1000/rank^{0.4} (to a physicist anyway, for whom everything is a straight line) 20:45:03 I lost again the address of that cl-python tarball... can anyone point me to it again? it's supposed to be a git... 20:45:07 take all this with a pinch of salt; I have no idea if Mr Fonerbooks is accurate 20:45:14 gigamonkey pasted "krystof-mean, probably screwed up" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86034 20:45:14 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 20:45:53 Krystof: I think I've screwed up something in my translation from your description into CL. 20:47:05 Because I'm getting a number much less than 1. 20:47:38 Krystof: I'm not sure if you saw when I said that, but is there anything more than feenableexcept(FE_ALL_EXCEPT); to trap in C? I still don't seem to be able to recreate it in pure C, and SBCL gets wedged hard when I tell it to ignore all FP exceptions, so I'm down to trying to decide which side is really at fault 20:48:36 Hun [n=Hun@p4FD3CCF4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:40 Whoops. I forgot a mean in there. 20:49:15 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:32 Krystof: this formula for sales rank seems bigus, even though amaezon uses it, it lacks stat validation 20:52:08 nixor [n=nixor@cpc3-oxfd4-0-0-cust681.oxfd.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 20:52:09 gigamonkey annotated #86034 "Krystof, is this what you meant?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86034#1 20:52:19 how to disable this options/actions on REPL output in SLIME 20:52:40 also, it seems that I have :CURRENT-EXCEPTIONS (:INEXACT) :ACCRUED-EXCEPTIONS (:INEXACT) on a fresh image, which gives me problem when WITH-FLOAT-TRAPS-MASKED returns 20:52:46 thank you :) 20:53:03 francogrex: well, it's hard to know that, isn't it, without knowing what the formula for Sales Rank is. And Amazon isn't saying. 20:53:42 well what kristof is proposing is his own creation? 20:54:07 Yes. Based on some other guy's analysis/guess of the relation between Sales Rank and books sold. 20:55:08 a robust measure would be something like the impact factor for peer reveiwed journals 20:55:15 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:55:56 but setting for books is different; and that is not for sales but for how influencail important the book is for the scientific community 20:56:10 hm 20:56:56 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 20:56:59 the whole amazon ranking and reviews process is bullshit 20:58:58 francogrex: well, it may not be a true measure of the worth of a book. 20:58:59 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:59:11 But it's probably not a totally bullshit indicator of how well a book is selling on Amazon. 20:59:50 But more to the point, it's the only up-to-date data available to authors without a very expensive subscription to Nielsen Bookscan. 20:59:51 gigamonkey: ok; can anyone beat harry potter? 21:00:06 gigamonkey: that looks right 21:00:10 well, what I meant, anyway 21:00:28 -!- spage [n=shawnpag@rrcs-70-62-96-98.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has left #lisp 21:00:29 gigamonkey: why would you xwant to know how well it sells in raking? 21:00:46 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 21:00:53 pluijzer [n=iisjmii@dhcp-077-248-127-112.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 21:01:06 isn't the absolute retuns what people want or is it always comparing how good it is *compared* to others 21:01:14 ... 21:01:33 I can't actually remember Thingstad's usual nick, but are you channeling him or something? 21:01:39 why is (equal (format nil "~a" "test") (format nil "~a" (first '("test")))) ==> NIL ? 21:01:42 if the latter, then impact factor not "sales factor" that matters 21:01:52 I can see the second one starts with a blank line, but why? 21:02:06 Krystof: what? 21:02:42 -!- nixor [n=nixor@cpc3-oxfd4-0-0-cust681.oxfd.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["leaving"] 21:03:28 pluijzer: it isn't 21:03:32 it's T here 21:03:34 francogrex: from where I'm sitting, you're making a whole bunch of assertions and having a discussion with yourself that, while potentially interesting, is not relevant at all to the situation gigamonkey and I are discussing 21:03:44 and you're making a lot of typos in the process 21:03:56 mathrick: False here, sbcl 21:03:57 pluijzer: you might've ripped the space-time continuum, I'd check if I were you 21:04:03 francogrex: I don't care about Sales Rank; it's just that there's no way to get at the actual sales data (in real'ish time). So we try to back it out from Sales Rank. 21:04:36 Krystof: anyway, I hope you're right. Look now. Your mean is the reddish line. 21:04:38 mathrick: wait :) 21:04:47 we (or I, at least) am trying to infer something we don't know (book sales) from something we do (sales rank) 21:04:48 Krystof: i'll always make typos, I think I'm dyslexic 21:05:28 gigamonkey: well, that red line accords with my intuition. Let me know when you get your royalty checks whether my intuition accords with real life :-) 21:05:35 nixor [n=nixor@cpc3-oxfd4-0-0-cust681.oxfd.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 21:06:06 Demosthenes [n=demo@12.0.194.56] has joined #lisp 21:06:40 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:06:56 Krystof: Yeah, well, we'll probably never know, really because I don't get that fine a breakdown to be able to figure out how many copies were sold on amazon during a given time period. 21:07:20 mathrick: Okay it's T ... Sorry I'm getting very tired :) thx 21:07:29 Plus someone told me that before the book is released Sales Rank is based on something other than simply orders. 21:07:34 pluijzer: no problem 21:09:23 gigamonkey: yeah, that seems to be what the Web says 21:09:42 fiddle with the exponent until you get the answer you most like 21:10:19 *Krystof* is way past his bedtime 21:10:31 Krystof: really, I haven't found anything on the Web about how Sales Rank is computed before release. If you have a URL right there, please share. 21:10:35 Otherwise, no big deal. 21:10:49 oh before release, I have no idea 21:11:05 what the Web tells me is that after release, sales rank is based on something other than orders too 21:11:10 Seems like it'd just be based on pre-orders but someone at Apress said otherwise. 21:11:17 http://www.webpronews.com/expertarticles/2006/06/15/navigating-the-amazon-sales-ranking 21:11:46 Right, Amazon is trying predict future sales and/or game the behavior of the book-buying public in various ways. 21:12:12 I certainly stopped paying much attention to PCL's sales rank once I started getting actual royalty statements. 21:12:55 But it's this period between completion and before actual data comes in that we authors have to cling to any little indication of how things will go. 21:13:07 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:13:54 do the square brakets have any special meaning to the lisp reader? 21:14:16 what do you care to predict what it will be? is there any decision you can make based on the prediction? 21:14:26 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-76.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 21:14:46 laynor_, I think it's reserved. Ask your CLHS 21:15:17 Fare: I have to know whether to keep buying lottery tickets. ;-) 21:15:31 gigamonkey: predictions are usually based on bayesian inferences. I doubt only a simplistic 6th grade formula will do 21:16:02 You guys are freaks. You spend two years working on something and you want to know how it will be recieved by the world at large. 21:16:15 Yes, in a perfect Zen, lack of attachments sense, it doesn't matter. 21:16:27 But for the rest of us, it does. 21:16:42 francogrex: that chart was not done by me 21:16:49 francogrex: i think it was created by a graphic designer 21:17:16 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:17:24 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 21:21:10 gigamonkey: use amazon-> http://www.amazon.com/Wherever-You-There-Are-ROUGH/dp/1401307787/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251235235&sr=1-1 21:21:46 -!- octe [n=octe@78.129.202.55] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:21:50 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@92.116.21.131] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:21:53 -!- mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-4ae470d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:22:10 octe [n=octe@78.129.202.55] has joined #lisp 21:22:16 you'll learn to be zen 21:22:25 mikezor [n=mikael@c-4ae470d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:25:46 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-spmranolnnxscdpa] has joined #lisp 21:26:17 -!- bashyal_ [n=bashyal@ip67-95-202-227.z202-95-67.customer.algx.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:26:46 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:27:07 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-39-5-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:27:09 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cpe90-146-32-187.liwest.at] has quit [] 21:28:07 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-31-104.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:37 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 21:28:49 Hi guys, is there a simple way to change text in a file, similar to what ed (or sed) do? I guess the text has to be buffered in some way. Should I just load the whole file in a list or so? 21:29:08 amnesiac_ [n=amnesiac@charanda.shochu.sandino.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:28 Sikander: there's cl-awk 21:29:47 mcdonji [n=mcdonji@70.75.0.48] has joined #lisp 21:29:59 -!- jleija [n=jleija@24.214.122.46] has quit ["leaving"] 21:30:01 p_l: ah, nice, I'll take a look 21:30:07 p_l: thanks 21:30:43 if really want to do appropriate sales projections, try reading some papers like this: http://www.springerlink.com/content/x50407536lr4p4r0/ 21:30:53 -!- bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [Client Quit] 21:31:21 or http://research.sun.com/projects/mgmtscience/Interfaces-Submission-Rev-1.pdf 21:31:58 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:31:59 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 21:32:35 nathandelane [i=ccf68a04@gateway/web/freenode/x-bngclwnszhyspcpc] has joined #lisp 21:33:32 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:33:44 bashyal [n=bashyal@ip67-95-202-227.z202-95-67.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:35 Hum, clawktest fails 21:34:50 gmlk [n=gmlk@alicia.demon.nl] has joined #lisp 21:35:38 I had set a plan for myself to write an advanced ascii plot facility 21:36:09 francogrex: there are already libraries to do that. 21:36:50 francogrex: have a look at libcaca. 21:36:54 eihrul_ [n=eihrul@ip72-193-224-224.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:14 xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-150-243.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:20 haha libcaca 21:37:29 pjb: for plotting I wouldn't use it 21:37:31 the name is lraedy suggestive 21:37:36 they also have products named libpipi and toilet. 21:37:39 amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 21:38:06 seangrove [n=user@adsl-69-225-113-166.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:13 toile is a FIGlet replacement, perhaps it could be used for plotting no? 21:38:17 toilet. 21:39:10 it's not Cl is it? 21:39:14 francogrex: you can use mplayer with libcaca display. Supergreat when you need to watch a movie over an ascii terminal. 21:39:23 francogrex: anything is CL with CFFI! :-) 21:39:42 p_l: Have you ever used clawk? 21:39:46 Pathetic Image Processing Interface: that's encouraging! 21:39:58 francogrex: that's a retro tla. 21:40:00 Sikander: didn't have need to 21:40:06 talk about self-promotion! 21:40:24 caca = poo, pipi = pee, toilet = bathroom, ... :-) 21:40:38 p_l: ok, never mind then 21:42:09 will it play good quality movies on my DEC VT220 ? 21:42:29 If you stand back two metters, it's watcheable. 21:43:04 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-39-5-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:43:12 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:46:46 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:48:00 hah, i'll use clos to make something cl-specific 21:50:08 -!- milanj- [n=milan@79.101.79.254] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:50:24 I want to learn Lisp where should I start? 21:51:05 On Lisp by Paul Graham is the best introduction 21:51:18 ANSI Common Lisp by him is a great followup to it 21:51:39 Are either of these available for free, like online? 21:51:41 minion: tell nathandelane about pcl 21:51:42 nathandelane: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:51:45 yes 21:51:46 they are 21:51:53 http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisp.html 21:52:12 On Lisp is a pretty advanced text. you shouldn't read that for now 21:52:18 eihrul_, ah thank you 21:52:25 Hun, what should I read first? 21:52:28 pcl 21:52:30 if you know some programming language already 21:52:34 On Lisp is excellent 21:52:41 it is 21:52:44 minion tell nathandelane about that sexy book 21:52:46 it will teach you how and why lisp differs and why you need to care about lisp 21:52:57 hey, there was a line like that... 21:52:58 eihrul_, I know C#, Ruby, PHP, HTML, CSS, JavaScript, and Java very well 21:53:07 minion: tell nathandelane about PCL 21:53:07 nathandelane: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:53:14 then i would say go with On Lisp :) 21:53:36 Ah thanks. 21:53:38 eihrul_: On Lisp does not introduce people to lisp 21:53:53 eihrul_: it teaches good lisp style, which is something entirely different 21:53:56 nathandelane: http://www.cliki.net/Getting%20Started 21:54:22 madnificient: it explains why lisp is cool, thus making you want to learn more about lisp :P 21:55:00 That sounds like a book I want 21:55:25 -!- xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-150-243.tukw.qwest.net] has left #lisp 21:55:50 eihrul_: I think having a database in ~2k loc is pretty good incentive, afaik from either 2nd or 3rd chapter of PCL xD 21:55:53 -!- amnesiac_ [n=amnesiac@charanda.shochu.sandino.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:55:54 wait 21:55:55 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:56:03 forgive me, i may actually be confusing on lisp with ansi common lisp :P 21:56:03 madnificent: the "good style" in Lisp is a bit questionable 21:56:13 it was so long since i read both :P 21:56:17 mathrick: please elaborate :) 21:56:30 mathrick: more like 'good techniques' maybe? 21:56:32 yeah 21:56:38 i was confusing the two books, sorry :) 21:56:50 sadly, ansi common lisp seems to be dead tree only 21:58:10 madnificent: we were just remarking on that today, since tic happened to bring his copy of On Lisp :). It's not code I consider pretty, starting with the trivialities like calling your arguments LST 21:58:20 also his irrational hate of CLOS 21:58:22 What is the best way for me to get Lisp? 21:58:28 nathandelane: http://www.cliki.net/Getting%20Started 21:58:36 mathrick: both points taken 21:58:43 in short: download lisp, read a book, type code at the repl. 21:59:02 pjb: he was asking about the implementation.... say clbuild on debian :) 21:59:04 And notice the result of (+) 21:59:23 It's what first made me like lisp(that and the result of (*)) 21:59:24 -!- Lucia_ [n=Lucia@148.Red-79-148-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:59:34 madnificent: Getting Started indicates how to download a lisp implementation. 21:59:36 Yes clbuild on Debian? What is clbuild? I have Debian base 21:59:45 *madnificent* shuts up (sorry pjb) 21:59:51 -!- seangrove [n=user@adsl-69-225-113-166.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:59:59 Elench: (+ a b c d e f) is equally nice and even more useful :) 22:00:03 madnificent: np. We don't always read the whole cliki... 22:00:25 clbuild is a way to install sbcl (other implementations too, maybe) on a system from the repositories themselves 22:00:26 Also true, but i like that the arithmetic operators understand how to react to zero operators 22:00:33 And that the syntax just makes sense 22:00:34 minion tell nathandelane about clbuild 22:00:50 minion: why do you hate me? 22:00:50 i don't know anything about why i hate you - you need to ask my master about that 22:01:25 http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 22:01:50 nathandelane: what editor do you normally use? 22:02:12 madnificient, I normally use VIM 22:02:22 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:02:48 steampunkey [i=4e8698d6@gateway/web/freenode/x-oxjhvvbdrkxyscaq] has joined #lisp 22:02:51 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:51 nathandelane: the normally advised way to code lisp is in emacs (with slime), a vim mode exists too, I don't know how good it really is (but it should be acceptable) 22:03:03 vim is fine 22:03:10 has decent syntax highlighting 22:03:17 just keep a repl open in another window :) 22:03:18 GrayMagiker [n=steve@c-76-18-86-163.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:21 syntax highlighting is for kids 22:03:23 I still run everything from bash 22:03:26 why is (eql '(1) '(1)) nil? and how to compare lists if not with eql? 22:03:26 I like that better 22:03:34 we have some vim + limp users here 22:03:39 nathandelane: that's not very productive 22:03:45 in the lisp world 22:03:57 o.O 22:04:06 nathandelane: it may be a tad different with lisp :) it becomes highly productive when being able to hop around the source when reading the error messages... 22:04:11 steampunkey: EQUAL 22:04:11 steampunkey: because they're defined not to be under EQL, and EQUAL or EQUALP 22:04:15 I understand, I usually run two or three terminal tabs also 22:04:31 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:04:57 mathrick: (eql '(1) '(1)) can be T 22:05:00 mathrick: no, eql alone doesn't work. is it for numbers only? 22:05:00 nathandelane: look into using a repl within vim... if you can't do that, then it is actually ill-advised (I moved from VIm to emacs because of lisp and a keyboard-layout-change) 22:05:21 clhs eql 22:05:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_eql.htm 22:05:22 steampunkey: what? 22:05:25 nathandelane: in any case, it will be an eye-opener :) 22:05:26 steampunkey: read it 22:05:32 -!- uman_readingmaps is now known as uman 22:05:48 mathrick: it works fine with equal and equalp 22:05:54 steampunkey: "*not* to be" 22:06:31 and I know, they're also defined to be equal under EQUAL(P) 22:06:42 why, EQL will return T on the same list 22:07:04 stassats: because they're two different copies. 22:07:14 i'm not asking 22:07:18 (let ((x (list 1 2 3))) (assert (not (eql x (copy-list x))))) 22:07:25 [00:03] steampunkey: because they're defined not to be under EQL, and EQUAL or EQUALP 22:07:26 stassats: but nothign says '(1) and '(1) are the same list 22:07:31 they're *permitted* to be 22:07:36 that's not the same 22:07:46 steampunkey: steampunkey: "*not* to be" 22:07:56 oh 22:07:58 -!- francogrex [n=franco@91.178.114.83] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:08:00 "EQL, *and* EQUAL or EQUALP" 22:08:05 it was two answers to your two questions 22:08:12 Fare: to actually answer your long ago question; I don't really care about predicting (except out of a sense of curiosity about the road ahead) but it is interesting to see how Sales Rank reacts to various events, some of which are partially controlled by me. 22:08:17 i see too much confusion here 22:08:22 mathrick: oh. k. 22:08:33 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:08:38 thx both 22:08:40 -!- steampunkey [i=4e8698d6@gateway/web/freenode/x-oxjhvvbdrkxyscaq] has quit ["Page closed"] 22:08:58 eihrul_, ltns 22:09:18 in the scheme of things, not so long 22:09:58 what's becoming of you? 22:10:10 blitz_ [n=blitz@dslb-094-222-056-135.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:23 clbuild complains that I don't have hg, but I have never heard of hg and sudo apt-get install hg doesn't result in anything being found. What is hg? 22:10:38 nathandelane: mercure 22:10:39 mercurial is what you want nathan 22:10:42 nathandelane: mercurial 22:11:02 thanks 22:11:08 dont know which distro youre using but on ubuntu and debian if you type hg - it will suggest the package 22:11:15 Fare: not so much 22:11:49 what's your bread-earning activity? any hacking hobby? 22:12:03 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 22:12:34 has anyone used tokyocabinet with cl before? I created a pretty basic wrapper with swig (basic config file, a few tweaks) if anyone is interested. 22:13:03 jonphilpott, I'm interested, but have no time right now. :-( 22:13:25 jonphilpott: p_l was working on some TC interface too 22:13:27 Fare: my bread is subsidized for the moment 22:14:14 jonphilpott, if they build a distributed memory with a voting system on top of it, with it be called tokyo diet? 22:14:26 eihrul_, been there :-/ 22:14:31 http://jonp.tx0.org/tclisp/ 22:14:37 nathandelane pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86039 22:14:38 eihrul_, where in the world do you live? 22:14:49 las vegas, nevada, usa 22:15:00 the output from swig only needs a slight tweak. an enum is used before its defined. 22:16:20 s0ber [i=pie@118-168-233-62.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:30 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-71-33.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 22:16:40 Alright that paste has to do with the output of clbuild, and now I'm noticing: Warning: Cannot find an executable for implementation sbcl. Any idea what that means? Isn't sbcl Lisp? 22:16:54 -!- Ifur [n=osm@2.84-48-92.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:16:58 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:17:02 sbcl is steel bank common lisp, a lisp implementation 22:17:17 you need sbcl to build sbcl. :) 22:17:35 download it from www.sbcl.org. then sudo sh install.sh and youre on your way 22:17:45 huh ok 22:17:50 Apt gave it to me 22:17:51 Dawgmatix: not really, you can use XCL. 22:18:41 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:19:18 And CLISP, depending on the phase of the moon. 22:19:30 i dont know the underpinnings per se, but does having a base lisp to cross compile on an architecture mean that sbcl is available on that architecture 22:19:31 Now it appears that I am missing clbuild/systems/*.asd -- or in other words none came down with clbuild... 22:20:19 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:20:34 nathan - what are you trying to install ? 22:21:06 lisp via clbuild 22:21:11 So maybe that's correct 22:21:25 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 22:21:32 eihrul_, what do you hack, these days, if anything? 22:21:47 i think clbuild has something like "clbuild --long-help" 22:21:53 Fare: i have mostly been working on sauerbraten 22:22:24 Dawgmatix: nathan's first lisp, don't be too hard on him (yet) ;) 22:22:44 sauerbraten.org ? 22:23:04 yes 22:23:07 yeah mad i was just meaning to point him to the --target .... flag, i dont remember it offhand and am stuck on windows atm 22:24:57 nathandelane: in the occasion that clbuild needs an sbcl installed before it working (which I don't think it needs (have you installed it ./clbuild install sbcl)) you can search for a package named sbcl (apt-cache search sbcl) under debian. There should be one available 22:24:58 dreish_ [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:25:13 ./clbuild lisp provided me with what I assume is an interactive Lisp [shell] 22:25:17 nathandelane: clbuild is especially handy to install some libraries and to have the most recent lisp environment :) 22:25:36 nathandelane: the REPL (read eval print loop) 22:25:43 nathandelane: you will read about that in the PCL book 22:25:53 madnificent, I did not do that yet 22:26:01 -!- pluijzer [n=iisjmii@dhcp-077-248-127-112.chello.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:26:02 jonphilpott: I've got SWIG interfaces for TokyoCabinet, Tyrant and Dystopia, haven't finished a lispy API yet 22:26:02 nathandelane: which is no problem :) 22:26:28 So for me who uses Perl and Ruby regularly, clbuild is kinda like rubygems or CPAN, correct? 22:26:59 nathandelane: lisp doesn't have such a good distribution system actually... but it should be somewhat the same... 22:27:08 it's nothing like cpan 22:27:28 it's different. Surely less complex, but in many ways better. 22:27:33 The same idea anyway? It gets source from places it knows about and then compiles them 22:27:34 p_l: cool :) 22:27:41 nathandelane: yes 22:27:52 p_l: its almost simple enough that it doesnt really need a full lispy api.. 22:28:03 cool 22:28:06 nathandelane: well, it only fetches, to be correct. asdf is the system that will actually load and compile them when you ask for them :) 22:28:07 jonphilpott: sure, but getting some generic functions would be nice 22:28:28 jonphilpott: as well as better abstractions over types and maybe serialization 22:28:32 madnificent, alright that makes sense 22:29:38 nathandelane: as I ask this to most new lispers, what are your primary interests with respect to coding? 22:29:58 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 22:31:20 to impress women? 22:31:30 I mostly just want to know lisp, still I am certain that there are applications or problems that I can solve better with lisp than with other languages where lisp is present. I am a sort of Jack-of-All-Trades programmer, but I like to be adaptable. I realize that Lisp will take me into new programming territory as it is pretty different syntactically 22:32:01 stassats: ... you know, I actually know one that it would work on, except she doesn't like lisp ;D 22:32:16 different syntax doesn't take you far 22:33:32 ? Like I said I mostly just want to add it to my repretoire. I find programming languages interesting along with the individual histories and cultures that go along with them. Perhaps you could say I am a language collector. What can one do with lisp? 22:35:12 nathandelane: Lisp certainly has a rich history, so you won't be disappointed. 22:35:18 I have heard of an ancestor, scheme, being used as a scripting language embedded into applications like The GIMP as well and would like to know how to utilize that 22:36:20 nathan its the other way around - lisp was schemes ancestor 22:36:26 nathandelane: Common Lisp was influenced by many Lisp dialects, including Scheme. 22:36:47 Aha, well I knew they were related. Thanks for correcting me 22:38:01 nathandelane: I used to be a language collector too :D 22:38:02 nathandelane: PAIP, SICP, AMOP... you'll probably find these books interesting. 22:38:21 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:38:40 luis: don't make him explode :P one book at a time :) 22:38:47 minion: thwap Dawgmatix 22:38:47 you speak nonsense 22:38:57 minion: thwap to Dawgmatix 22:38:57 Dawgmatix: please look at thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 22:39:31 nathandelane: as a word of warning, your interest in other languages might decline a bit after learning lisp 22:40:25 madnificent: it may very well be, but as a necessity I must use the other languages until I obtain power such that I can influence my employers to switch over to Lisp for all of our devlopment needs ;) 22:40:33 like heroin 22:40:36 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["bbl"] 22:41:08 nathandelane: and that path, I have walked too (and am walking). It wasn't meant as: You'll only see lisp. But you may reflect to it much more often than with other languages 22:41:28 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-spmranolnnxscdpa] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:42:19 Yeah that is understandable. I think I know one thing about Lisp other than its ancestry -- doesn't it use what are referred to as Lambda expressions or something like that? And isn't everything written in polish postfix format instead of infix? 22:42:48 thanks stassats 22:42:53 stassats: thwap is funny :P 22:42:58 prefix 22:43:11 nathandelane: lambdas are great; do use them. 22:43:12 stassats: oh, you were talking about the problem finding out for what parts you could make threads ,right? 22:44:00 madnificent: i can't make sense out of your question 22:44:03 nathandelane: Lisp uses prefix notation. Forth is the one that uses postfix notation, and it's pretty neat too. 22:44:13 Oh like (4 5 +) is like (4 + 5) in C, right? 22:44:20 no, that's postfix. 22:44:22 no, (+ 4 5) 22:44:26 oh ok 22:44:28 thanks 22:44:44 how come you didn't encounter it already? 22:45:02 So operator first, function first, then operands 22:45:04 stassats: I talked about auto-multithreading in lisp some times. And I think it was you that told me: The problem is not finding out what you can multithread, but finding out what is worth creating a thread for. (or the equivalent with your more fluent english) 22:45:26 madnificent: oh yeah 22:45:28 nathandelane: you might want to check out http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ It helped me get started learning lisp 22:45:58 stassats: can't you run a profiler on the code first, just do some normal use cases, and let the software learn where to split from that data? 22:46:01 GrayMagiker: thanks 22:46:08 madnificent: was it sarcasm about my fluent English? 22:46:09 nathandelane: that's the PCL :D 22:46:10 nathandelane: well, it's like C isn't it? function(arg1, arg2) what's interesting is that + is a regular function as well. 22:46:33 -!- mcdonji [n=mcdonji@70.75.0.48] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:46:35 luis, as it should be in my mind 22:46:40 stassats: no, I speak engrish, I'm a non-native :) and you just commented about the incorrect use of ' :) 22:46:54 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32DFBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:01 madnificent: I know, but thought he might need a more direct nudge in that direction. 22:47:02 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:11 nathandelane: you'll find lisp has a lot of uniquely "done Right" bits like that. 22:47:17 it's very fun 22:47:27 cool 22:47:28 GrayMagiker: :D 22:47:39 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Client Quit] 22:47:42 madnificent: i'm non-native as well; and profiling sounds interesting 22:47:56 there's already profile guided optimizations 22:48:06 stassats: links? 22:48:12 -!- est [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:48:19 not in Lisp, in general 22:48:24 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:48:25 ah, like that 22:48:33 anyone using cxml on windows on lispworks ? 22:48:34 est [n=jthing@084202013251.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 22:49:11 I'm affraid lisp will need to find a way to multithread automatically, in order to keep up with more conventional languages. As they have a massive amount of coders to cope with the problems :) Clearly, this is a problem still some years away for us 22:50:09 madnificient - the problem is trickier than it appears 22:50:26 parallelyzing runtime can be the first step 22:50:26 (under the current paradigm) 22:50:54 perhaps making things less mutable is a first step .. 22:51:05 So Lisp doesn't support multithreading? 22:51:06 Dawgmatix: I thought the hard part would be to discover what does not mutate any data, or what does not mutate any linked data (ouch) 22:51:10 nathandelane: it does 22:51:23 but multithreading itself is too low-level 22:51:37 nathandelane: but you have to discover what you'll multithread yourself now (like in most other languages) 22:51:52 I rarely multithread anything 22:52:01 Dawgmatix: but stassats thought the hard problem would not be that, but discovering what to make a thread for... as making a thread costs resources too 22:52:20 I wrote a webcrawler that performed better without multiple threads than with 22:52:43 also depends on your domain, in some domains the cost of optimizing things is just too high for what it returns 22:52:45 nathandelane: multithreading is not the holy grail for everything :) 22:52:57 (if your program runs once a day and takes 5 minutes instead of 0.00002 seconds ...) 22:53:06 Dawgmatix: thus: let the computer discover how to do things quickly! 22:53:28 native threads are good if their number is not much bigger than number of cores 22:53:28 madnificent: my opinion exactly. In fact I find few applications for it. Maybe a server, but even that could handle requests synchronously very well in most cases. 22:54:01 i like doing thing slowly ;) allows me to take coffee breaks 22:54:14 (incf Dawgmatix) 22:56:15 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-58-31-104.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:57:37 -!- Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 22:58:08 par & sec 22:58:14 s/sec/seq 22:58:47 stassats: parallelising the runtime seems like a really bad idea to me. 22:59:03 pkhuong: why? 22:59:12 pkhuong: well, not everything 22:59:40 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:00:07 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:00:26 It hurts performance when I know what I'm doing, and only helps when I don't care enough. 23:00:45 pkhuong: so, make it optional -done- 23:01:02 pkhuong: in many cases, you'd like for it to be quicker, but don't care enough to do it yourself 23:01:25 pkhuong: also: there is no guarantee that you will actually do better, a system that does it by statistics could be faster on average 23:01:50 madnificent: come on. 23:01:59 v0|d: ? 23:02:02 madnificent: tell me something real. 23:02:10 v0|d: keep it real v0|d 23:03:14 -!- Fare [n=Fare@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:04:33 S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has joined #lisp 23:04:41 skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has joined #lisp 23:04:41 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has quit [Client Quit] 23:05:19 skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has joined #lisp 23:07:49 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-76.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 23:07:57 -!- nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["destroy, despise, distrust, disobey, distrust, disarm, destroy, dispise, dissect, deny, destroy, despise, distrust... love is"] 23:10:01 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@ip67-95-202-227.z202-95-67.customer.algx.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:11:05 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has quit ["Ok, I'm outta here"] 23:11:19 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:13:51 fxr [n=user@213.232.33.243] has joined #lisp 23:13:55 Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #lisp 23:14:22 bashyal [n=bashyal@ip67-95-202-227.z202-95-67.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:42 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:57 i am trying to use cxml on lispworks + windows and I run into this issue in closure common where things break because something like (= #\c #xFF) is being evaluated in a function called figure-encoding 23:19:37 the #\c comes from reading a byte from a stream. = complains that the first argument is not a number 23:19:53 any suggestions on how to fix this ? 23:20:03 -!- dreish_ [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 23:20:58 Dawgmatix: probably a function that called it wasn't careful enough about its use of runes or rods 23:21:02 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-153-214.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:21:16 (runes are integers or characters depending on the Lisp) 23:21:40 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-gsoktottoyfinfbh] has joined #lisp 23:22:06 I see 23:22:08 walk your backtrace looking for a function that is dealing with runes or rods, then look in the runes/rods API in closure-common and figure out who didn't do it right 23:22:14 -!- fxr [n=user@213.232.33.243] has left #lisp 23:22:15 then submit a test and patch :) 23:22:18 okay :) 23:23:33 skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has joined #lisp 23:27:27 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:27:27 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 23:27:54 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-186-109.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:33:39 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 23:36:02 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:37:29 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:39:40 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:41:06 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:43:00 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has left #lisp 23:43:03 Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 23:43:26 kidd [n=kidd@4.Red-88-17-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:49 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:49:17 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:49:38 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1C421.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 23:52:45 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:11 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:55:38 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:55:52 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:56:44 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@KD124213182069.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]