00:00:01 -!- hohum [n=dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:01:10 kpreid: and the code is also quite a mess I don't understand anymore 00:04:00 sepi: could you add some support for tablet PCs? I'd love to use stump on the tablet :D 00:04:14 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 00:05:23 madnificent: haha, that's exactly my motivation 00:05:31 sepi: there is a standard for those widgets you would like to have. If you want to integrate those, you should see if you can add them to ltk. If not, you could use one of the gtk libraries and add it from there 00:05:32 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:41 madnificent: I'm currently using it with fbpane 00:05:44 fbpanel 00:06:00 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-23-169.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:04 sepi: tablet + clit mouse... what tablet pc do you have? 00:07:06 t41 00:07:11 x41 sorry 00:07:26 hohum [n=dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:42 sepi: we can form a user group: Stumpwm Tablet pc User Group -- stug (yuk) 00:07:49 madnificent: I'd also like to implement splitting with the mouse 00:07:49 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-23-169.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 00:07:59 madnificent: hehe, why not 00:08:02 sepi: if they'd been cheaper, I'd 've bought that one too 00:08:27 splitting/resizing/... from menus in your awesomebar 00:09:03 madnificent: maybe just by using prefix click 00:09:27 ok, some other combination in between 00:10:02 sepi: if you can make it show up an on-screen keyboard, you're set to go :) From there on it'll be usable, which is good enough to experience it and extend it 00:11:48 we'll see. I'd actually like to implement that notification icon standard from opendesktop.org, but that requires xembed 00:16:33 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:20:15 ok, anyways, bye and thank you all for your help 00:21:18 a method to control tiling window managers similar to how acme tiles its windows would be quite good for tablets... 00:24:05 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 00:26:51 p_l: acme? 00:27:02 plan9 editor 00:27:16 *madnificent* searches 00:27:52 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 00:27:58 -!- Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has left #lisp 00:27:59 *stassats* didn't like it 00:28:43 *p_l* preferred Emacs anyway 00:28:48 good to have an example that's been thought about before 00:28:51 not tiling, tiling was actually interesting 00:33:19 Plan9's interface was definitely designed for one-handed keyboards :D 00:34:38 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:36:15 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:36:26 -!- seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:44:10 kidd [n=kidd@88.Red-88-16-71.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:32 alexsuraci [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:53 alexsuraci1 [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:49 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 00:51:06 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslw197.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:53:12 -!- bigb [n=bigb@r190-64-50-69.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:57:14 -!- a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 00:57:29 a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has joined #lisp 01:00:55 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@95.65.241.57] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:04:00 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:04:42 danlei` [n=user@pD954F88F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:34 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2D466.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:05:35 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:05:37 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 01:07:08 -!- zeroish` [n=zeroish@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:09:27 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["bye bye"] 01:11:10 -!- xrath [n=xrath@217.39.1.25] has quit [Client Quit] 01:12:12 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:12:38 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:13:41 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 01:14:46 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Success] 01:18:26 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:57 xrath [n=xrath@217.39.1.25] has joined #lisp 01:18:57 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:39 envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 01:21:34 -!- xrath [n=xrath@217.39.1.25] has left #lisp 01:28:20 ruediger [n=the-rued@80.139.84.68] has joined #lisp 01:36:37 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@80.139.84.68] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:42:05 -!- alexsuraci1 [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:42:41 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-23-169.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:12 Anyone had any problems with ADW-CHARTING on SBCL 1.0.30 and/or x86-64? 01:44:33 gigamonkey pasted "ADW-CHARTING stacktrace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85928 01:45:15 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 01:47:56 gigamonkey: that's a problem with salza2 01:48:22 Xach might be able to figure it out 01:49:08 Xach? 01:49:45 salza2 is Xach's library 01:50:36 Yeah, that was shorthand for Xach: help me my friend, you're my only hope! 01:51:21 hahaha 01:52:06 like in batman movies 01:53:57 alexsuraci1 [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:17 Hmmm. Upgrading salza2 to the latest didn't seem to help. 01:54:37 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-181-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:53 maybe salza2 is overwhelmed by your high sales 01:55:28 I wish. 01:55:50 -!- a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:56:05 a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has joined #lisp 02:00:00 Hmmm. Maybe it's a SBCL bug. Seems to work in Allegro. 02:02:07 elliotstern [n=chatzill@pool-96-225-17-231.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:14 gigamonkey: more like Allegro being more lenient with type checks. 02:06:17 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:07:12 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:07:16 pkhuong: fair enough. So it's a bug in one of these layers that's fatal in SBCL and benign in Allegro. 02:08:18 minion: memo for Xach: any ideas about this http://paste.lisp.org/display/85928 SBCL 1.0.30 on x86-64 02:08:18 Remembered. I'll tell Xach when he/she/it next speaks. 02:08:19 hello 02:08:19 Xach, memo from gigamonkey: any ideas about this http://paste.lisp.org/display/85928 SBCL 1.0.30 on x86-64 02:08:28 Speak of the ... 02:08:53 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:08:58 gigamonkey: what version of salza2 do you have? 02:09:01 i think i fixed that 02:09:07 Just upgraded to 2.0.7 02:09:28 Let me make sure I've really wiped all my fasls, etc. 02:11:11 Is it possible it's a problem in Vecto? 02:11:44 i don't think so. the problem is caused by a too-narrow type declaration that was not detected in older (fsvo older) sbcls 02:11:53 then i updated sbcl and ran into the problem and changed the declaration 02:12:12 Ah. Which explains, perhaps, why it works on my 1.0.28 SBCL. 02:12:20 that could be it, yeah 02:12:56 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-105-177.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:12:58 So is the declaration in ADLER32-UPDATE? 02:13:35 I could check to see if I've got it in the version of salza2 I've got. 02:13:48 gigamonkey: yeah 02:14:16 the old one was (mod 32659), the new one is (u-b 16) 02:14:55 well, (integer 0 32658) 02:15:27 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 02:16:33 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:16:36 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-23-169.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:17:05 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-23-169.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:10 minion: logs 02:17:10 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 02:19:11 *gigamonkey* is sad that his brand new x86-64 machine is not noticeably faster than his 5-year-old PPC box. 02:19:25 Okay, Xach. False alarm it seems. 02:19:36 After completely wiping the fasls and recompiling, seems good. 02:19:36 gigamonkey: i saw an interesting chart today, i think it would be easy to rip off the style. 02:19:55 http://ccp.vo.llnwd.net/o2/devblog/img/Plex/Plex_blog2.gif 02:20:09 gigamonkey: on what task? I can easily give you code that'll make a Core 2 or K10 run circles around an old G4. 02:20:29 pkhuong: fetching email, maybe :) 02:20:50 pkhuong: Using emacs, compiling Lisp, browsing the web. 02:20:59 Obviously the latter is largely network bound ... 02:21:14 And the first is IO/UI bound. 02:21:17 ... but I was hoping that at least running Javacript faster would make things feel faster. 02:21:57 CLAD: 'common lisp application distribution' for a tarball-downloading system. Yay/nay? 02:21:57 pkhuong: things like fontifying buffers, like, say, the oodles of compilation notes from SLIME, should be faster though. 02:22:11 ironCLAD 02:22:50 Xach: you like the differing right and left axes. Or the color scheme. Or someting else I'm missing? 02:23:12 gigamonkey: the glowing halo around the colors. and the black background. 02:23:17 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-181-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:23:51 Yeah, see, I've got not refinement--I didn't even notice the halo. 02:24:20 I sometimes do okay with those word things though. 02:27:06 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:32:49 what's the name of that emacs minor mode that you use to write sexps in? 02:33:13 paredit 02:33:16 yup 02:33:17 thatsi t 02:36:43 For instance, I was hoping drawing these charts with adw-charting would be quite a bit faster. 02:36:52 -!- alexsuraci [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:36:52 But it's doesn't seem to be. 02:36:59 sorry about that 02:37:38 Am I wrong to assume it'd be largely compute bound? 02:38:02 yeah. vecto isn't blazing fast. 02:38:08 i mean, yeah it's compute bound. 02:38:40 Xach: Sure it's not memory bound? 02:39:20 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.213.8] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:39:28 I've got 4G of RAM, surely that would be sufficient for drawing a 40K png. 02:39:43 gigamonkey: Doesn't affect latency. 02:40:41 You're talking about cache as opposed to swap. Or am I missing something else entirely. 02:41:51 Memory bound means the memory <-> CPU link is the bottleneck. Just like an IO bound task isn't sped up by increasing the storage size, but by reducing latency (faster drives, SSD) or increasing bandwidth. 02:43:23 pkhuong: cl-vectors uses conses and generic arithmetic for everything... 02:43:36 conses for points, that is 02:44:08 maybe it's memory bound, though. i don't really know how to check. 02:44:50 Xach: so very likely not compute bound, and 64 bitness means double the bandwidth for the same task. 02:45:58 what's the best way to make it faster? 02:47:40 Not using conses and generic arithmetic ;) Hard to tell since I don't know what operations cl-vector performs. If you can take advantage of Nikodemus's SIMD vector stuff, that could bring nice speed ups without too much low-level coding work (so you get to focus on the rearchitecting) 02:47:44 pkhuong: they should really invent some catchy shortname for memory-bandwidth-bound and memory-latency-bound :) 02:48:12 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@pool-96-225-17-231.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:48:26 Xach: looking at speeding up cl-vectors? neat. 02:49:02 i made some local tweaks to use a 2-element double-float vector and lots of type declarations and iirc i got a 25% speedup 02:49:15 wow 02:49:30 nah, not impressive 02:49:43 well, it's not written with speed in mind originally, so some kind of improvement is not difficult 02:51:18 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gcnrazrvqgbciihn] has joined #lisp 02:51:23 gigamonkey pasted "WTF ADW" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85931 02:52:43 that *is* weird...should have produced caw-sales-ranks.png, not foo.png 02:52:46 (sorry) 02:52:54 scalefail 02:54:02 gigamonkey annotated #85931 "But this works" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85931#1 02:54:25 elliotstern [n=chatzill@pool-96-225-17-231.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:54 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gcnrazrvqgbciihn] has quit [Client Quit] 02:55:45 Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #lisp 02:56:41 Does "scalefail" point me to something I can fix? 02:57:11 gigamonkey: not anything easier than hacking the code. 02:57:24 gigamonkey: ryepup might be interested in bug reports 02:57:41 -!- a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:57:54 a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has joined #lisp 02:58:29 minion: memo for ryepup: Does this make any sense to you http://paste.lisp.org/display/85931 ? 02:58:29 Remembered. I'll tell ryepup when he/she/it next speaks. 02:59:24 girzel [n=user@61.51.239.77] has joined #lisp 03:02:01 that might not be the best way to touch base -- he hasn't spoken on #lisp in weeks 03:02:10 girzel` [n=user@61.51.239.77] has joined #lisp 03:02:53 aH. 03:02:56 Ah. 03:03:11 ah> 03:03:18 Guess I've got to look up his email then. OKay. 03:03:27 *gigamonkey* is still adjusting to the feel of his new keyboard. 03:03:53 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:04:52 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-yqezucietbwdwuuu] has joined #lisp 03:08:58 -!- girzel [n=user@61.51.239.77] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:14:43 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:10 konr_ [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has joined #lisp 03:22:00 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954F88F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:22:40 So I guess I'll get to learn a bit of Vecto doing it by hand. 03:22:50 *gigamonkey* kicks it Jedi style. 03:27:40 Xach: in Vecto is 0,0 lower left or upper right? 03:30:14 dalton [n=user5442@189-19-116-74.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 03:31:28 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.176] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:32:43 -!- dalton is now known as IamRational 03:33:14 gonzojive [n=red@122.162.185.161] has joined #lisp 03:36:08 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:24 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 03:37:59 Xach: you still here? 03:38:12 Tufte would be mad (no labels on axis) but here: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/tmp/new-caw.png 03:38:38 Demosthenes [n=demo@12.0.194.54] has joined #lisp 03:38:45 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:40:23 coderdad [n=coderdad@72.200.214.240] has joined #lisp 03:44:08 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 03:47:35 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@12.0.194.54] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:52:04 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 03:58:29 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-26-188.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 04:02:50 htk_ [n=htk___@95.65.241.57] has joined #lisp 04:03:13 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:03:17 (defun square (x) (declare (optimize speed (safety 0)) (double-float x) (values double-float &optional)) (* x x)) ;; is there some way to avoid "float to pointer coercion (cost 13)" wrt. the return value in these cases? 04:03:39 inline 04:03:43 i don't understand floating point stuff very well i think 04:03:56 ah 04:04:04 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Success] 04:04:25 if i declaim it inline the message is still there, but i suppose it is for the non-inlined "part" or case of the compiled result(s) 04:04:26 the note will remain, though 04:05:34 right 04:05:35 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483C344.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:05:41 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C344.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:59 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-26-188.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:06:24 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:06:26 logBot4362 [n=logBot@59.96.43.94] has joined #lisp 04:09:11 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 04:09:22 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:09:40 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:15:50 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-35-74.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:16:38 -!- gonzojive [n=red@122.162.185.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:16:42 is the boxing caused by sbcl trying to be compliant wrt. some floating point standard? 04:18:19 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:18:21 yes, ieee, double floats being 64 bits 04:19:25 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:21:17 ok, is it possible to disregard that somehow? .. i'm not even sure it is relevant, but fixnums use some of their bits (iirc..) to avoid boxing so they can be stored directly in registers .. i'd be ok with that for some floating point operations too (smaller numbers) 04:21:37 use single-floats? 04:21:50 on 64-bit machine 04:21:52 not sure that helps .. they box too .. lemme test 04:21:55 oh 04:22:01 that works? .. nice .. :) 04:22:24 this thing is running @ 32bit still though .. perhaps time to reinstall debian, then 04:23:25 yeah, they box too here .. time to reinstall then .. :} 04:24:57 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-yqezucietbwdwuuu] has left #lisp 04:25:21 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jmsvzwkurnkygajs] has joined #lisp 04:26:16 -!- logBot4362 [n=logBot@59.96.43.94] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:26:45 uh, there is a short-float too; didn't know about that .. that's still too big for 32bit? .. or perhaps unboxing haven't been implemented there 04:27:05 sbcl only has single and double floats 04:27:27 ok, noticed that just now .. ahwell 04:30:57 you can also pass them inside specialized vectors 04:32:24 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:24 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:32:31 yeah, saw something about that on sbcl-devel/help recently i think .. (defun square (x-and-result) ..) and x-and-result is a vector, right? .. 04:32:37 -!- nvoorhies_ is now known as nvoorhies 04:33:33 perhaps 04:33:45 yeah, i am not sure how to do it .. going to try and see 04:34:53 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:38 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-23-169.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:38:56 seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:39:05 Mini Lisp-gathering later tonight, I'm excited! 04:39:34 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 04:39:36 morning 04:40:58 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-23-166.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 04:43:10 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@72.200.214.240] has quit ["Leaving..."] 04:44:04 like this http://paste.lisp.org/display/85937 , then i think 04:44:08 morning 04:44:51 whatS 04:44:54 oops 04:45:21 what's (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (proclaim '(optimize (safety 1) (speed 3)))) ? 04:46:02 i mean, it's the same as (declaim (optimize (safety 1) (speed 3))) 04:46:13 ah, i proclaimed so it'd have effect while messing around in the repl too 04:46:42 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:50 in sbcl it expands in exactly the same code 04:48:23 huh .. the proclaim doesn't actually change the compiler policy globally (in the repl too..) 04:49:20 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@pool-96-225-17-231.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:50:02 i've probably misunderstood something then .. but yeah, you're right declaim makes more sense in general 04:51:12 it does change, but only in one thread 04:51:34 right 04:52:09 Demosthenes [n=demo@12.0.194.2] has joined #lisp 04:53:30 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:41 I'm trying to introduce a caching layer to my system. I've got a bunch of methods that I've defined, and I was thinking of creating auxiliary :before methods to check and see if the computed value is already cached. 04:54:55 but I see that I can't stop the calling of the primary method from the aux. 04:55:03 this is the wrong way to go about this? 04:55:08 :around 04:55:16 and call-next-method 04:55:39 well, won't that get called twice? 04:55:46 (around?) 04:55:52 no 04:56:26 ok. gotcha. thanks 05:00:20 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:17 -!- a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:01:28 a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has joined #lisp 05:03:21 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-19-153.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:04:27 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 05:09:54 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:52 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:06 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 05:13:09 -!- a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:13:21 a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has joined #lisp 05:18:12 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit ["off"] 05:18:21 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:19:37 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 05:21:31 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:21:37 -!- IamRational [n=user5442@189-19-116-74.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:22:11 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:05 -!- est [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:29:25 est [n=jthing@212.251.244.165] has joined #lisp 05:32:08 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 05:34:37 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@95.65.241.57] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:36:13 -!- adhoc [n=adhoc@ppp121-45-31-70.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has left #lisp 05:36:56 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:39:16 gonzojive [n=red@122.161.172.1] has joined #lisp 05:41:02 -!- gonzojive [n=red@122.161.172.1] has quit [Client Quit] 05:42:10 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jmsvzwkurnkygajs] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:42:38 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ovndzthgwlcmcdbj] has joined #lisp 05:48:28 -!- ojuice [i=ojuice@209.164.37.111.static.sna.hosting.com] has left #lisp 05:51:17 -!- kidd [n=kidd@88.Red-88-16-71.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 06:03:39 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:03:42 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 06:10:12 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.27.183] has joined #lisp 06:11:30 Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has joined #lisp 06:15:26 -!- girzel` [n=user@61.51.239.77] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:17:00 Ogedei [n=user@e178208109.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:19:50 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:23:01 ASau [n=user@host38-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:23:55 plage [n=user@90-227-107-28-no34.business.telia.com] has joined #lisp 06:24:00 Good morning. 06:24:29 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:56 gko [n=gko@116.59.42.124] has joined #lisp 06:30:31 benny` [n=benny@i577A1AC7.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:34:36 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A17AB.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:36:43 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.27.183] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:37:23 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 06:40:08 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:42:50 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:44:37 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:57 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:45:17 Grey_Fox [n=chatzill@ppp118-208-141-225.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:45:25 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest81705 06:45:57 -!- seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:46:01 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:46:24 good morning 06:46:52 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:48:29 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:49:30 Xof: does SBCL tolerate ASLR? 06:54:31 why does #'make-list take a single keyword argument? 06:55:07 ie, (make-list size &key initial-element) as opposed to (make-list size &optional initial-element) 06:56:52 perhaps in case implementations would like to add custom keyargs 06:57:56 perhaps also for consistency with other functions that take a :initial-element argument 06:58:30 yah, make-array and make-string 06:58:35 mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:58:47 -!- mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 07:00:05 hello mvilleneuve 07:00:54 -!- toxygen [i=toxygen@stip-static-98.213-81-186.telecom.sk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:02:00 -!- xan__ is now known as xan_ 07:03:45 -!- benny` is now known as benny 07:05:09 mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:06:16 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:06:20 -!- mvillene1ve is now known as mvilleneuve 07:07:21 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:13:46 c|mell [n=cmell@118.243.192.20] has joined #lisp 07:14:34 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 07:16:30 I have two lists, say L1 and L2. L1 is usually very long, but L2 is not. Sometimes, though, L1 is shorter than L2, but this happens rarely. I want to test whether the first objects of L1 and of L2 are the same (under #'equal). If and only if all the words on L2 are at the beginning of L1, I want to return true. I used (every #'equal L1 L2), but this also returns true when L1 is shorter than L2, and all the words on L1 are at t 07:16:30 he beginning of L2 which I don't want. And of course, I want to avoid computing the length of L1 because it is usually very long. Any suggestions? 07:17:12 -!- Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:17:26 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 07:17:37 I suppose I could compute the length of L2, nthcdr down L1 to check whether it is longer. 07:20:05 seangrove [n=user@adsl-69-225-113-166.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:54 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:22:04 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:22:04 -!- nvoorhies_ is now known as nvoorhies 07:22:40 i have a sneaky feeling practical common lisp book will become something ill refer to a lot 07:24:40 plage, how about (loop for a in l1 for b in l2 always (equalp a b)) 07:24:44 HG` [n=HG@xdsler076.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:24:53 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:25:18 plage, i don't understand what you want to if l1 is shorter than l2 07:26:47 Why not use map? 07:26:58 c|mell: I think what you suggest is essentially equivalent to my solution with EVERY, which also returns true when L1 is a strict prefix of L2, which I don't want. 07:27:17 Zhivago: how would I use it? 07:28:04 Well, you could use a non-producing map and then return-from if the elements don't match -- on second thoughts, perhaps that's not very elegant. 07:28:38 Zhivago: the problem is not testing whether the elements match, but to avoid returning true when L1 is shorted than L2. 07:28:46 ... without testing the length of L1 07:28:51 *shorter 07:28:56 girzel [n=user@61.51.239.77] has joined #lisp 07:30:06 I think I'll do (and (not (null (nthcdr (1- (length L2)) L1))) (every #'equal L1 L2)) 07:30:17 plage, no use loop and pop 07:31:10 OK, I'll try both. Thanks everyone! 07:31:47 vy [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has joined #lisp 07:33:05 plage, (let ((l1 l1)) (loop for a = (pop l1) for b in l2 always (and l1 (equalp a b)))) 07:34:22 wait a minute that's off by one, if l1 == /2 07:34:56 -!- Guest81705 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 07:35:43 yeah 07:35:56 plage, (loop while l1 for a = (pop l1) for b in l2 always (equalp a b)) 07:36:54 though if you care about efficiency lists are probably the wrong way to go 07:36:55 Why does (typep #(NIL NIL) '(vector integer)) returns T? 07:37:11 c|mell: That looks like it might work. Thanks! 07:37:29 plage: (eql (mismatch l1 l2) (length l2)) 07:37:47 but of course, you can loop yourself to avoid the second walk of l2. 07:38:03 pjb: That's a pretty good one though. 07:38:34 vy, the upgraded array element type of integer is t, and nil is of type t 07:39:09 Thanks everyone. 07:39:10 -!- plage [n=user@90-227-107-28-no34.business.telia.com] has left #lisp 07:41:35 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:42:19 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:47:26 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:51:16 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:51:38 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 07:52:40 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229114076.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:52:57 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 07:53:50 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:56:14 why oh why doesn't lisp have all the retarded syntax to memorize of pretty well every other language? 07:56:18 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:56:40 why can i actually read the practical common lisp book and understand more or less what the code examples say? 07:56:52 *sigh* so many years wasted trying to learn the other languages 07:57:40 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:46 lisp has plenty of retarded syntax. 07:57:56 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 07:57:57 Let's see... (push a b) <- what does this do? 07:58:43 no idea yet, i'd haveto look it up but its way more readable than $o->{'field'} = 10; 07:58:58 if anything id guess its pushing a value of one list to another or something 07:59:12 So, which of a or b is the something? :) 07:59:16 how about (setf (slot-value o 'field) 10) 07:59:28 Lisp syntax requires memorization, just like any other syntax. 07:59:46 There might be advantages to it being in a superficially regular form. 07:59:48 and there's quite a lot of common lisp syntax 08:00:15 lol. i'm sure you guys are right especially for something with a spec of this size 08:00:17 *nod* 08:00:26 I think that it cuts both ways -- writing a.b[c].d[e].f in lisp syntax is, um, verbose. 08:01:26 Due to that verbosity, people tend to write more accessor methods and compose them. 08:01:50 So, in one sense the clumsiness of the syntax may lead to clearer syntax in practice. 08:02:05 true enough. while at first lisp my seem readable if the lexicon is large enough all we have done is expand on what other languages tend to concatenate i guess 08:02:42 although i will forever consider perl an abomination 08:02:55 anyway, so far having fun learning this is great 08:03:45 I'm glad to hear that. 08:05:08 macros are going to bake my noodle though, i can see that already 08:05:45 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.27.183] has joined #lisp 08:08:26 -!- gko [n=gko@116.59.42.124] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:09:36 woodz [n=chatzill@host90-152-51-38.ipv4.regusnet.com] has joined #lisp 08:10:32 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:19:27 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:20:02 slime/sbcl question... 08:20:13 I'm trying to do the "loading swank faster" trick 08:20:57 I've created the sbcl.core-with-slime and I moved it to the SBCL_HOME directory, next to sbcl.core, so that it's not cluttering up the bin directory. However, SBCL can't find it now. 08:21:19 What am I doing wrong? 08:21:42 serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-142-74.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:21:48 Is there a precompiled sbcl for os x that has threads enabled? 08:24:18 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@118.243.192.20] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:24:25 note: it does work to supply the full path (ie, /home/adlai/lib/sbcl/sbcl.core-for-slime) in my .emacs, but that's really redundant because right under that I've got the environment variable SBCL_HOME set to /home/adlai/lib/sbcl... 08:28:09 -!- serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-181-186.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:28:45 htk_ [n=htk___@95.65.241.57] has joined #lisp 08:31:47 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 08:31:49 Adlai: -core doesn't use path relative to SBCL_HOME, it would be rather impractical 08:32:19 p_l: yeah, that's what the manpage seems to suggest 08:32:46 Adlai: it would break UI assumptions (if not axioms) of Unix :) 08:33:31 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@131.173.209.157] has joined #lisp 08:34:21 codemonkeyx [n=codemonk@www.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 08:37:06 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:39:39 TuxPurple_ [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 08:40:41 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6E556.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:55 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:41:27 -!- TuxPurple_ is now known as TuxPurple 08:45:19 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:48:42 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:54:56 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:22 Is there some way to "unload" slime and reload it? 09:01:25 Adlai: M-x unload-feature 09:05:51 girzel: thanks. 09:06:30 np 09:06:37 errr actually this is very broken 09:06:38 wow 09:06:50 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["restarting emacs"] 09:07:16 no worky? 09:08:23 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:11:38 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:16:31 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:23:48 bdowning_ [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:15 devD [n=devD@unaffiliated/dev29aug] has joined #lisp 09:27:37 hackoo [n=dev@unaffiliated/hackoo] has joined #lisp 09:28:50 so can we do AI programming in lisp only? 09:28:56 tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:31:21 jack pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85945 09:31:34 rstandy [n=rastandy@95.74.31.88] has joined #lisp 09:31:53 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:32:46 hackoo, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp .. "Common Lisp is a general-purpose, multi-paradigm programming language." 09:34:07 ..it is also a "programmable programming language", as the topic here states 09:34:50 hackoo: also, you can do AI in anything, including poorly-designed biological organisms :> 09:35:15 p_l: ok 09:35:29 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.27.183] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:35:52 p_l: or java, as is thought in our 'advanced languages for AI' -_- 09:36:39 madnificent: ;_; at least my professor in first year AI course tortured the class with a prolog-based practical 09:37:05 hackoo: the answer is yes, whatever the others say and try to write AI in java, python or C++. 09:37:07 p_l: they did that at our school too :D 09:37:15 madnificent: it brought a smile to my face seeing everyone go 'WTF' 09:37:23 p_l: but now I was searching for interesting stuff, and it seemed everything has become java :( 09:37:44 madnificent: yeah, all practical coding at my university seems to be in Java as well. 09:38:08 though we will have a CLIPS course 09:38:38 *madnificent* doesn't like java 09:38:51 *p_l* neither. XMonad only makes it harder 09:39:49 what's the connection between xmonad and java? 09:40:31 madnificent: mainly brokeness of Java's X11 implementation 09:41:05 dunno if JREs other than Sun have the same problems, but I only use Java 7 09:41:32 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:42:07 basically - uses awt/swing => doesn't work under XMonad (nor StumpWM) 09:44:17 -!- Ogedei [n=user@e178208109.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:44:28 Ogedei [n=user@e178208109.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:44:57 p_l: ah, that's probably what makes pgadmin3 behave strangely then 09:45:50 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:47:05 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@131.173.209.157] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:47:28 -!- est [n=jthing@212.251.244.165] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:47:50 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 09:47:52 est [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 09:48:33 -!- hackoo [n=dev@unaffiliated/hackoo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:48:47 madnificent: except it's not written in Java? ;) 09:49:16 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [Client Quit] 09:49:20 madnificent: i think pgadmin is just broken :) 09:49:25 tezra [n=iris@60.53.228.5] has joined #lisp 09:49:29 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 09:50:33 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ovndzthgwlcmcdbj] has left #lisp 09:50:42 *p_l* has zero problems with pgadmin3 09:51:03 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:51:45 pgadmin didn't work for me, haven't tried it in a year, though 09:52:18 pgadmin3 doesn't allow keyboard input to go through stumpwm... don't know what it's written in though 09:52:37 ejs [n=eugen@139-199-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 09:52:57 pgadmin is python, if i'm not completely mistaken 09:53:15 -!- girzel [n=user@61.51.239.77] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:53:17 c++ and wxwidgets 09:53:27 uh, python? .. maybe i should check 09:54:57 i must be wrong 09:55:05 yeah, it's c++ and wxwidgets .. it depends on a lot of libwx stuff 09:56:15 no idea where i got the impression that it was written in python :) 09:56:24 it could have been.. *shrug* :) 09:56:55 ..Deluge (torrent client) is written in python and it's fast 09:57:58 thanks for the tip. looks nice 09:58:03 so what's the next "system level"(?) programming language going to be for the open source world? .. java sucks, c sucks .. c#? .. no one understands lisp :/ 09:58:31 (gnome1 had a lisp window manager..) 09:58:36 I wrote 1/1000 of a bittorrent client in CL once before getting bored 09:59:06 python will be a lot quicker in the future with all the unladen-swallow niceness 09:59:17 so i'm expecting to see more and more of it 10:00:25 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 10:00:41 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:01:01 yeah, the great thing about python is all the FFI improvements being done to core libraries like gtk+ and gobject etc. .. it was really impossible to FFI proper with gtk+ before imho .. maybe that's changing now 10:01:14 (i mean; it means it'll be easier to FFI from lisp too..... :)) 10:02:06 yep 10:03:56 hm, sbcl is crazy fast .. damn .. the new sse stuff is really nice 10:04:15 lnostdal: well, Python doesn't really have FFI given how it is implemented :D 10:04:21 still tricky to deal with boxing though, but not impossible .. heh 10:05:11 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-31-185.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:05:21 p_l, yeah, python ffi seemed very weird .. i only looked briefly .. but i hope still that core libraries are being pulled in the right direction because of it .. :} 10:05:57 I'd say "not really", especially with tools like PyRex 10:06:05 i'd think the llvm implementation will have more "regular" ffi stuff 10:06:36 guaqua: or they will make CPython interface emulation 10:06:37 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:07:19 p_l: true. that's more likely 10:07:23 at least in the beginning 10:10:00 still lisp? 10:10:11 perhaps with a more javascript-like syntax 10:11:07 it would make sense, as john mccarthy pointed out 10:12:12 what do you think of fortress? is it worth looking at? 10:12:17 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 10:12:23 gnome3 is moving towards javascript for a couple of things it seems 10:12:33 kde is doing the same 10:13:00 weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:13:01 widgets and extensions can be written in javascript, are platform independent and all the good things 10:13:18 quite interesting tbh. .. mix-and-match desktop and web code might be possible, perhaps .. 10:14:04 Excellent. 10:14:06 lnostdal: with javascript being a masqueraded scheme, shouldn't we be able to write a simple lanugage that transforms to CL... and leave CL for the powerusers? 10:14:21 that would make the conversion from C-like languages to lisp-like ones smoother 10:14:40 Javascript is quite a lovely language, but I wouldn't call it a scheme. 10:15:03 it certainly beats fiddling around with gobject and c by the looks of it 10:15:12 perhaps, madnificent :) 10:15:39 Zhivago: no, it is even more limited :) but it is going in the right direction... with javascript slowly becoming accepted, including for the idea of it being a scheme, it would probably make sense to write something like javascript 10:16:03 Personally, I think that python has reached its zenith. 10:16:07 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-152.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:16:26 Why write something like javascript when you have javascript? 10:16:48 python is still strong as shell glue 10:17:09 Unfortunately that's not a very difficult domain to enter :) 10:17:10 -!- woodz [n=chatzill@host90-152-51-38.ipv4.regusnet.com] has left #lisp 10:17:17 there are no javascript implementations that have a comparable array of system interfaces 10:18:11 i could only imagine doing shell stuff in bash or python, maybe ruby (don't do perl, can't comment on that) 10:18:22 Have you seen v8r? 10:18:32 guaqua: shelisp (if only it would work) 10:18:42 Zhivago: taking a look right now 10:18:53 what gets me is that people invent languages which are hard to compile without much thought; and then they have to spend inordinate resources to get it barely as fast as needed 10:18:57 Zhivago: to make the language in which you integrate it, more accepted :) 10:19:26 michaelw: javascript -if that was what you're referring too- is not that slow 10:19:42 It has fewer challenges for optimization than python. 10:19:46 Zhivago: getting the interfaces right and documented is not as easy as one might think 10:19:48 I was talking about python 10:20:02 michaelw: ah, ok 10:20:14 guaqua: It gets cheaper when you have inspiration from the competition. 10:20:18 and ruby 10:20:35 sure - and there are well-thought and defined interfaces that you can copy 10:21:13 still needs the work and the determination. not hard algorithmically but harder socially (motivation, how do you say this?) 10:22:09 Javascript has all of that -- it's probably the most popular language in general use. 10:22:33 Once all of those horrible little web developers start to migrate toward doing horrible system admin jobs ... 10:22:52 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@95.74.31.88] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:22:54 a frightening thought :) 10:23:51 In any case, I am targetting javascript first in the lisp I am developing now :) 10:24:11 The compiler pretty much self hosts and runs in firefox. 10:24:15 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. 10:24:28 yeah that was to be expected 10:24:44 I'll target CL when that's settled down. 10:25:07 Zhivago: web devs migrating toward admin jobs don't do a lot of javascript, according to what I've seen 10:25:08 Zhivago: anything out of the ordinary in your Lisp? 10:25:22 It's kind of nice to be able to have a cup of tea while it compiles -- nostalgic. 10:25:25 they do php... 10:25:47 michael: Well, it involves two lisps -- an 'implicit lisp' and an 'explicit lisp' 10:26:35 michael: The explicit lisp has code like (value (call (value (shared-variable (literal +))) (value (literal 3)) (value (lexical-variable (literal a)))))) 10:26:37 I remember catching the end of some explanations about this 10:27:09 michael: Which means that it's easy to change the implicit assumptions of the lisp that humans work in. 10:27:13 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:27:18 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:27:54 For example switching between 'lisp-1' and 'lisp-2' is just a matter of deciding what you want to rewrite the x in (x ...) x to. 10:28:42 I also get rid of the reader and printer and replace macros with stages of pattern matching rewrite rules. 10:30:11 Getting rid of packages and replacing them with authors, and about to work on modules as extensible lexical environments. 10:30:16 what is lexical-variable, literal, etc.? are these functions or special forms or just an AST? 10:30:45 rdd [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:31:13 Well, they're just forms which get rewritten such that they act like namespaces. 10:32:42 You could consider them as special forms, but I don't. 10:32:47 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:34:27 I'm also getting rid of things like #'x as much as possible, which takes a lot of burden off functions. 10:34:58 girzel [n=user@123.121.246.142] has joined #lisp 10:35:13 e.g., The procedure implementing + only accepts two arguments. The compiler is responsible for rewriting (+ a b c) into (+ a (+ b c)) or whatever. 10:35:47 sounds a lot like Scheme ;) 10:36:02 Which means that instead of passing #'+ you should pass `(+ ,a ,b ,c) or whatever is appropriate for your use-case. 10:36:12 -!- tezra [n=iris@60.53.228.5] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:36:26 Well, scheme gets a lot of things right that CL gets wrong. 10:36:41 What does it get wrong that CL gets right? 10:36:47 Splitting up () and nil is on the list of things to do. 10:37:04 ecraven: Well, until recently it had no extensible class system. 10:37:14 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 10:37:35 ecraven: It also does not specify the order of evaluation of arguments. 10:37:43 ;) r6rs is ... debated ... by many Schemers 10:37:52 doylent [n=doylent@host158-53-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:37:54 Zhivago: should a language specify the evaluation order? 10:38:07 Well, they're trying to fix it by splitting it into a big chunk and a little chunk. 10:38:37 ecraven: For a procedural language, I think so. 10:38:43 -!- doylent [n=doylent@host158-53-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 10:39:00 doylent [n=doylent@host158-53-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:39:03 Otherwise it becomes very difficult to test any higher order functions involving side-effects. 10:39:16 Scheme wants you to avoid side-effects ;) 10:39:26 Yeah, but it doesn't. 10:40:37 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 10:41:31 It's great that Scheme starts to accumulate "standard" libraries that are actually useful, though the exact definitions in R6RS are not very popular it seems 10:41:36 clojure does it better 10:41:50 Well, it's all part of growth. 10:46:10 I wonder where Scheme and CL would be today had EuLisp succeeded 10:47:18 Dunno, but I think that we're almost over the CL hump. 10:47:31 Zhivago: I didn't get your remark about "pass[ing] `(+ ,a ,b ,c)". passing to whom? 10:47:58 Sorry -- in CL syntax it would be (lambda (a b c) (+ a b c)) 10:48:23 Rather than having a function object take a random number of arguments and have to sort it out for itself. 10:49:03 -!- a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has left #lisp 10:50:07 michaelw: I've only read the papers, but I was impressed.. Did you ever use it? 10:52:22 lispm [n=joswig@e177145092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:52:28 Zhivago: (how) can users write their own n-ary functions which are then broken down to the 2-arg case? 10:53:22 FOLD 10:54:06 that's not exactly efficient unless fold can detect the static case 10:57:23 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 10:58:53 -!- codemonkeyx [n=codemonk@www.sinclair-durer.net] has quit ["re-connect"] 10:58:57 codemonkeyx [n=codemonk@www.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:06 michaelw: Well, this is a little tricky to express, but ... 11:01:45 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:02:12 Since we separate the syntax from the implementation, when we define a function, CL style, we define a syntax and an implementation for it to run. 11:03:01 If we produce syntax that accepts a variable number of arguments, then it can work out which implementation it wants to use, and how. 11:03:02 AgentX [n=x@118.95.53.120] has joined #lisp 11:04:15 Likewise with a random number of arguments -- you might have (apply + '(1 2 3 4)) turn into (call +/a '(1 2 3 4)) 11:04:22 Does that make any sense? 11:04:47 -!- tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 11:06:00 benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-124-177-91-65.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:07:01 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:07:41 except that won't work with redefinitions 11:07:51 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:08:05 -!- codemonkeyx [n=codemonk@www.sinclair-durer.net] has quit ["restart"] 11:08:29 codemonkeyx [n=codemonk@www.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:37 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:08:43 It will work to the extent that it currently works. 11:09:03 Which is not a very great degree, but there you have it. 11:10:05 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:11:01 And nothing stops you from prototyping with implementations that just take their arguments as a list and destructure it ala CL. :) 11:11:33 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:13:17 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:14:42 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:19:34 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 11:20:09 -!- Grey_Fox [n=chatzill@ppp118-208-141-225.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:24:44 Got a bit sidetracked from the netscape interface in Firefox. Needed some linear algebra so I wrote a provisorical interface to LAPACK. 11:25:01 s/netscape/axiom/ 11:27:49 Tradintionally it has based it's interface on a optional propriatary interface from NAD. 11:28:51 -!- seangrove [n=user@adsl-69-225-113-166.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:29:48 Suficciently efficient implementations in SBCL seem improbable. 11:31:08 At least noe that scale to paralell computing and vector processors. So LAPACK gives you a lot for free. 11:31:18 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:33:30 Anyone interested in taking some load off my back and making it a full scale library? 11:34:38 est: how much are you paying ? 11:35:09 Like LAPACK it would be voulentary and free. 11:35:26 fgtech [n=federico@host94-170-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:35:27 So no pay. 11:37:45 seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:38:12 which editor is best to make lisp program in linux? 11:38:22 devD: emacs 11:38:29 Axiom has a proprietary software past, but is since 2003 released to opensource. 11:38:42 devD: at least, that's the common accepted thing... you could use something else too though (eclipse or vim are alternative options) 11:38:49 devD: do you know any of those three? 11:38:57 madnificent, I think emacs is suitable for all 11:39:00 est: release what you need yourself and extend it later. Perhaps other users will help you when they need it 11:39:16 devD: then you will be perfectly happy with emacs + slime as it really is the best option in the long run 11:39:52 madnificent: I will. This is a backsided attempt to recruit more programmers. 11:41:39 madnificent, actually today I attended the very first lab of lisp programming to make AI programs. there was something like corman lisp, but I dont know much about lisp, do we need some compiler or interpreter with emacs or vim to make lisp programs? 11:42:27 est: ah, adding a page to cliki noting that might have better effect, as it's less pushy and reaches a bigger audience of interested enthusiasts :) 11:42:56 madnificent, I used vim and a little bit of emacs. 11:43:48 devD: you have a few options. sbcl is the most commonly used FOSS implementation of the CL standard. You'll probably want that and slime 11:43:53 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Operation timed out] 11:44:54 devD: searching for slime emacs sbcl will give you information on how to use/install it 11:45:03 devD: if you're not scared of emacs, I advise you to use that 11:45:26 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:46:45 If Emacs can scare him, Lisp will be lethal. 11:47:00 madnificent, I like emacs, I am learning and I'll make lisp on that. so I need slime too with emacs to do lisp? 11:47:03 AgentX: no, I found emacs to be scarier than lisp itself 11:47:44 devD: yes, you do... however, it may well be that your OS's lisp installer (or emacs installer) provides you with slime already 11:47:49 That sounds rarer than rarest if Afrikan diseases :\ 11:47:53 s/if/of 11:48:29 AgentX: no really, lisp is simple and pure... and emacs has loads of commands... When I wanted to learn lisp, I took emacs with it, but it was not my primary interest, and thus harder 11:48:40 bigb [n=bigb@r190-64-193-23.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 11:48:53 madnificent, ok thanks, anyways I have fedora 11 and I installed emacs in it. 11:48:53 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:49:22 devD: I haven't tried on fedora, but someone is bound to have it here :) 11:49:33 ok 11:49:37 I recommend getting SLIME from CVS/SVN (whatever it uses). Release version (2.0?) is quite old. 11:49:59 AgentX: perhaps just getting everything through clbuild? Don't know if that would be easier 11:50:11 *devD* googling all to know more about them and to choose the best 11:51:07 devD: clbuild is basically an installer for lisp libraries from their VCSs. It supports intalling sbcl and slime too 11:51:38 I keep forgetting whom else wanted the equivalent of gems for lisp here 11:51:40 Not a bad idea. 11:51:45 ok 11:52:14 madnificent: sorry to push in - would you recommend clbuild over asdf? 11:52:32 benbos67: you mean over asdf-install? 11:52:41 that's the one :) 11:52:45 benbos67: clbuild uses asdf for the definition of the packages 11:52:58 asdf-install is a way to distribute binaries by putting them on cliki... 11:53:07 devD: Corman Lisp is a win32 implementation, dunno about connecting it to SLIME, but you can also use CCL (Clozure Common Lisp) or SBCL (Steel Bank Common Lisp), both open-source 11:53:10 definitely use clbuild and not crappy asdf install which sucks 11:53:44 it probably depends on your use-case, but I think clbuild is better on roughly each front (unless you actually set up the GPG sign checking) 11:54:10 madnificent, ok 11:54:28 devD: if you have problems, just throw them in here 11:54:30 as I am a beginner you guyz can tell me the best for begginer 11:54:40 using clbuild here, I totally recommand it 11:54:49 it just works 11:54:56 devD: I'm quite happy with clbuild too (if only it would've been distributed -_-) 11:55:04 and you can ask on the clbuild ml to add a lib when it's missing 11:55:06 madnificent, thanks, its really a good place, you people are so much helping. 11:55:16 thanks everyone. I'll put clbuild in tomorrow. Thanks for your time everyone. 11:55:18 devD: go with clbuild, if you want to change later on, you can still do so :) 11:55:30 madnificent, yes 11:55:30 yw benbos67, see you then :) 11:55:40 cheers 11:56:44 devD: clbuild doesn't work on win32 yet, btw 11:57:13 p_l, ok, anyways i am using fedora. 11:58:57 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 11:59:09 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:24 -!- benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-124-177-91-65.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:00:27 c|mell [n=cmell@y192035.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 12:00:28 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Operation timed out] 12:01:39 The worst thing about clbuild is it's dependance on 6 version control systems. It would be better from a ubuntu point of view to check for their existance and load them before clbuild. 12:01:52 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:02:01 If they are nor precent. 12:02:41 est: clbuild check 12:02:54 it tells you if you're missing some VCS 12:03:13 I know. And I got it to work. But it was a lof of effort. 12:03:51 your OS surely provide a package manager which can install the different VCS, right? 12:04:06 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@75.36.204.63] has joined #lisp 12:04:07 on arch, pacman -S darcs mercurial git subversion cvs 12:04:15 (one's missing, don't remember which one) 12:04:18 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:04:19 -!- nvoorhies_ is now known as nvoorhies 12:06:09 Think of it as a first step twoards integrating it with windows. Making it work automatically under a ubuntu system. (unmodified) 12:06:59 minion: thwap to est 12:06:59 est: please see thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 12:07:55 You would still need cygwin or equivalent. 12:08:32 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:09 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-101-241.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:10:39 galdor: that's all + a cl implementation 12:10:40 if I find some time, I'll try to package clbuild for archlinux 12:11:34 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32BCDA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:00 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:12:27 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 12:12:44 Just got one of those 360 GiB external discs for backup. 12:13:01 320 12:13:34 AgentX_ [n=x@118.95.53.120] has joined #lisp 12:13:46 Know any good backup programs for Linux? 12:14:10 dd or rsync 12:14:34 dump 12:15:00 s/dd/dump, sorry 12:15:13 thought dump, wrote dd 12:15:20 dd works too though 12:15:26 yes 12:15:30 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:31 Depends on the scale, to be precise. Enterprise level solutions are different from backing up your home directories. 12:15:41 at work, we use backuppc 12:15:47 seems to works flawlessly 12:16:45 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:17:10 -!- bigb [n=bigb@r190-64-193-23.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:17:30 -!- AgentX [n=x@118.95.53.120] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:19:56 I went for a tar cvpjf backup.tar.bz2 --exclude=/proc --exclude=/lost+found --exclude=/backup.tar.bz2 --exclude=/mnt --exclude=/sys / 12:22:54 a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has joined #lisp 12:23:52 if you want full backup copies each time yes 12:23:52 est, you don't plan to do incremental backups later? 12:24:00 for personnal use I prefer a simple mirror with rsync 12:24:26 s/use/usage 12:24:45 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [] 12:25:37 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:25:47 you can do incremental backups with tar 12:26:13 I just wen't old school. 12:31:08 seangrov` [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:31:39 cracki [n=cracki@43-180.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:31:41 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@y192035.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:31:50 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.223.182] has joined #lisp 12:32:35 -!- ejs [n=eugen@139-199-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:35:52 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-23-166.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:36:51 Under windows I use Neru 12:37:02 (Dual boot) 12:38:07 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-37-179.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:38:38 You ought to look at Areca or BackupPC. Even Amanda isn't mad. 12:38:42 *bad 12:39:35 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:59 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@12.0.194.2] has quit ["leaving"] 12:45:59 -!- seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:47:48 stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:15 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.178.241] has joined #lisp 12:51:11 dump-style backups are quite interesting 12:51:41 though IMHO Venti takes the cake if not for collisions 12:52:43 Reav___ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 12:54:50 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 12:59:05 gigamonkey [n=user@99.39.5.30] has joined #lisp 12:59:51 Wow, cl-ppcre has conditionals for #+genera 13:00:29 gigamonkey: better than conditionals for CLIM-1 13:01:28 who put those in? hard to believe 13:01:46 gigamonkey: did you find the answer to your question about vecto's coördinate system? 13:02:23 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.178.241] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:02:27 last time I tried compiling something that had conditionals for CLIM-1 and Dynamic Windows, I gave up after long struggle 13:02:39 scigraph? 13:02:43 yea 13:03:11 is there one single function in SLIME used to print objects? 13:03:16 for the repl, or for the inspector 13:03:24 I was working on a version of scigraph with the old code removed 13:09:50 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 13:10:34 |doylent| [n=doylent@host158-53-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:11:42 -!- doylent [n=doylent@host158-53-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Success] 13:12:27 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:13:37 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 13:14:01 macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:14:46 nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 13:15:19 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@75.36.204.63] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:23:24 -!- Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has quit [] 13:24:31 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #lisp 13:29:50 Xach: I did. 13:30:11 Or, rather, the lines went where I expected them to. 13:30:28 I guess that means 0,0 is lower left. 13:30:39 Xach: did you say the other day you were using Gnus for email again? 13:30:46 (or for the first time) 13:31:39 gigamonkey: i did say 13:31:44 for the first time 13:31:51 i've used it for news for a long time 13:33:00 You aren't, perchance, using IMAP and Gmail are you? 13:33:19 not imap. popping. 13:33:38 gmail though. 13:33:54 gigamonkey: if you start using IMAP + Gmail + emacs, could you notify me about it? 13:34:17 madnificent: well, I started. But I'm not sure how to get my Sent mail to show up in Gnus. 13:34:35 *gigamonkey* wonders how long it would take to POP all his old mail off of Gmail 13:34:36 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:53 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:34:54 i use (setq gnus-message-archive-group "sent-mail") 13:35:55 So that's for making mail you send from within Gnus get put into Gmail's Sent "folder"? 13:36:09 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 13:36:13 gigamonkey: something in the range of (setq gnus-message-archive-group "[Gmail]/Sent Mail") perhaps then 13:36:14 I can't even see Sent in the available groups. 13:37:08 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:21 gigamonkey: oh, i send mail through gmail's smtp 13:37:31 gigamonkey: it shows up in sent-mail locally and in Sent on gmail 13:37:43 Xach: it automatically moves that? 13:37:53 Right. I'm actually not worried (yet) about how to send mail from within Gnus. I want to be able to see, in Gnus, messages that I've already sent via Gmail. 13:38:13 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 13:38:19 *Xach* has nothin' 13:38:57 -!- qidush [n=qidush@83.252.27.42] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:43:09 -!- stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:44:41 gigamonkey: it does Sent Mail automatically here too 13:45:15 madnificent: where's "here" 13:45:31 on my computer, using GNUs + gmail/imap 13:46:37 What is the group called? 13:47:05 I didn't set it... I simply tried to send a mail through gmail's servers, and it added it to my sent folder in the online interface 13:47:54 danlei [n=user@pD954F88F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:00 I can't get the browsing of my inbox to work though 13:48:48 But can you see your sent mail in Gnus? 13:49:12 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 13:49:15 I can see nothing in Gnus, still trying to figure it out :) 13:50:25 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 13:50:32 I tried using gnus for email once but didn't see any real benefit. 13:50:53 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest85443 13:51:38 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 13:51:39 I prefer Opera news 13:51:58 Much easier to use 13:52:14 I'm not unhappy with gmail's interface 13:52:48 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177145092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 13:53:13 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 13:53:39 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.246.142] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:54:21 Ah, this is very helpful: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/GnusGmail 13:54:35 Search for "Acessing the [Gmail] folders" 13:54:55 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-24-147-105-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:08 I'm usually okay with Gmail's web interface but its "feature" of always keeping things in conversations can make it hard to find individual messages. 13:55:34 Sometimes I just need a list of individual messages sorted by date. 13:55:49 Not by date of the most recent message in a conversation. 13:55:58 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:56:07 Xof: looks easy enough to fix and convert into an ERROR, but maybe you had other plans. 13:56:18 weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:56:35 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [Client Quit] 13:56:53 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 13:57:21 I'd mainly like to use emacs because it would mean that there's one less app in the browser 13:57:25 -!- Guest85443 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 13:58:02 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:14 *gigamonkey* wonders why there are spam messages in my Sent Mail folder when looked at in Gnus. 13:58:31 *gigamonkey* wonders when someone will write a really good email client. 13:59:50 for some reason, that seems to be non-trivial 14:02:04 pkhuong: I don't think I had other plans 14:02:58 I wonder what I was thinking 14:03:28 i like kmail. too bad the current version distros are offering seems to be quite unstable :( 14:03:44 thus i've been using webmails for some time now 14:07:52 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:08:02 lispm [n=joswig@e177145092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:11:02 IamRational [n=user5442@187.34.41.194] has joined #lisp 14:11:10 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:05 Hun [n=Hun@p4FD3D766.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:51 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:15:59 weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:16:01 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177145092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 14:17:04 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:05 fscking ERC blocking io 14:18:48 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:19:33 weirdo: it's emacs problem... 14:20:07 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:22:05 -!- vy [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has left #lisp 14:22:16 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host94-170-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:25:07 -!- IamRational is now known as Dr_Robert_Rey 14:28:43 gigamonkey: Why moving email to emacs? (I have considered doing that as well) 14:28:43 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:30:51 -!- jao [n=jao@31.Red-83-33-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:31:16 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-97-48.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:31:44 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has joined #lisp 14:35:05 gigamonkey: would your ideal/"really good" mail client be online or offline? 14:35:19 actually the ideally ideal would be both. :\ 14:36:29 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p4FD3D766.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:37:58 sthalik [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:38:01 hey 14:38:03 please help 14:38:15 every time i macroexpand something with new sbcl emacs goes into an infinite loop 14:38:30 actually i have to macroexpand it twice 14:38:48 anyone having similar stuff going on? 14:40:32 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:51 and now it happened in presentations 14:41:37 -!- devD [n=devD@unaffiliated/dev29aug] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:41:55 does format have a built in "day of week"? or do I need to define a list and do a lookup? 14:42:36 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:43:01 minion: cliki local-time 14:43:02 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@99.39.5.30] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:43:02 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 14:43:08 minion: local-time? 14:43:08 local-time: local-time is a development library for manipulating date and time information in a semi-standard manner. http://www.cliki.net/local-time 14:43:19 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:43:51 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has joined #lisp 14:43:54 sthalik: at a guess, your macro destructively modifies a constant which it uses to perform macroexpansion with 14:47:05 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:47:37 cinayakoshka [n=cinayako@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 14:48:17 -!- rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:48:18 dwh [n=dwh@ppp121-44-215-7.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:54 Krystof: will it show with SAFETY 3? 14:49:29 but stranger thing is that it hung as well when used as (sb-cltl2:macroexpand-all form) 14:50:42 sthalik: the compiler can't do anything about you destructively modifying the source. 14:50:47 uh, no, it's not it 14:50:58 i called COPY-TREE on the form beforehand and it still hangs 14:51:12 best way to do linear algebra in lisp on leopard? 14:51:21 ideas? 14:51:29 cinayakoshka: there was linear algebra screencast 14:51:40 cinayakoshka: bindings to LAPACK and BLAS; . 14:51:40 wrt ray tracing 14:52:15 rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:16 thanks. :) where is the screencast? 14:52:18 LiamH: url 14:52:21 lisppaste: url 14:52:21 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 14:52:40 sthalik: you can paste your macro and see if someone can find the issue. 14:54:59 my macro is 40k lines :< i'll see if simply pasting the expansion itself triggers the bug 14:56:31 it does 14:56:47 weirdo pasted "paste this into the repl to kill slime" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85962 14:57:20 weirdo: alive 14:57:29 -!- carrl_ [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:57:41 carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has joined #lisp 14:57:44 so it must be either my dot.emacs or my local slime modifications, then 14:57:51 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:58:19 how it dies? 14:58:32 -!- ASau [n=user@host38-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 14:58:42 what's in inferior lisp 14:59:16 stassats`: i don't know. emacs hangs, inferior lisp seems fine 14:59:50 okay, emacs -Q doesn't hang 15:00:04 so now let's try with pristine SLIME 15:00:12 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:00:12 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 15:00:22 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2942.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:32 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:00:32 pristine slime doesn't have a REPL 15:00:48 i mean without my local changes 15:01:54 ok it must be my changes 15:02:10 and i think i know what exactly 15:03:06 it works. thanks for help, guys 15:03:07 -!- sthalik [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has quit ["leaving"] 15:03:25 weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:04:46 segv [n=mb@p4FC1B9D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:41 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:43 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:06:51 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1B9D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:07:07 Xof [n=crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:07:11 segv [n=mb@p4FC1B9D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:38 -!- cinayakoshka [n=cinayako@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit ["Quitting!"] 15:11:19 Hun [n=Hun@p4FD3D766.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:42 -!- a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has left #lisp 15:13:28 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@static-70-108-241-27.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:33 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:13:40 nurv101 [n=nurv101@cidhcp132.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 15:14:05 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 15:14:19 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@cidhcp132.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 15:15:04 nurv101 [n=nurv101@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 15:17:54 -!- AgentX_ [n=x@118.95.53.120] has left #lisp 15:18:23 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.178.241] has joined #lisp 15:19:45 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:19:59 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:30 dysinger [n=dysinger@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:56 rvirding [n=chatzill@192.165.65.245] has joined #lisp 15:21:06 xan__ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:23:11 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:23:12 Geralt1 [n=Geralt@p5B32BD02.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:12 fgtech [n=federico@host94-170-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:30:40 ignas [n=ignas@78.60.73.85] has joined #lisp 15:31:35 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:31:57 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp121-44-215-7.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:32:27 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:35:53 manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6D055.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:52 ole3 [n=user@62.96.71.236] has joined #lisp 15:37:22 ... 40k line macro O_o 15:37:42 ugh 15:38:14 *dcrawford* brain short 15:38:50 hello, i would like to read a hole file, is there a function for that? 15:38:58 a whole file 15:39:01 sry 15:39:06 sledgehammer? 15:39:16 Perhaps read-sequence would be useful? 15:39:50 nope, i don't want a sequence, i want s-expessions. 15:40:36 Well, then use read. 15:40:50 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:40:54 loop + read might do the trick for you 15:41:22 ok, i will try 15:41:40 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:42:36 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:16 [Jackal] [n=x@118.95.42.144] has joined #lisp 15:47:21 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 15:51:06 dysinger` [n=dysinger@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:12 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:18 got it, but shouldn't this be built in? 15:52:21 http://paste.lisp.org/display/85964 15:52:53 ole3: no. It's good for a library. Variants of such a function exist in several libraries. 15:53:05 ole3: see scheme-lite vs. scheme-full. 15:53:28 matimago: scheme-lite? 15:53:44 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6E556.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 15:53:57 Yes, r6rs is a fiasco. They're going to do two versions of scheme for r7rs: a lite one and a full one, with all kinds of libraries and batteries included. 15:53:58 is there a way to do minor formating magic in HTML-Template loops, e.g. putting seperators between each element but not the last one 15:54:32 I think it's a good idea. 15:54:33 (format t "~{~A~^~}" list-of-html-elements) 15:54:46 Might eventually give CL a kick in the pants. 15:54:49 Zhivago: I totally agree. It's the best news in scheme since a long time. 15:54:55 matimago: I'm using html-template 15:55:38 Moe111: ah well, you may process the first element, and then loop on the rest prefixing each of them with a separator. 15:55:54 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 15:56:11 (loop :for element :in (rest elements) :initially (output (first elements)) :do (output separator) (output element)) 15:56:14 something like that. 15:56:18 matimago: I can't even do that. Oh well, I'll just add a "is-last" key in the data list 15:59:23 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 16:02:14 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host94-170-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:02:55 Isn't the function to read a whole file of s-expressions LOAD? 16:03:33 logBot3013 [n=logBot@59.96.192.145] has joined #lisp 16:03:36 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:03:40 that reads them and evaluates them too 16:03:42 thunk` [n=thunk@74-130-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 16:04:50 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-ekcrfizmdkhfffwk] has joined #lisp 16:05:42 -!- logBot3013 [n=logBot@59.96.192.145] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:06:33 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:06:37 I needed the raw s-expression for feeding them into parenscript. 16:11:31 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:11:57 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.178.241] has quit [Success] 16:12:52 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:13:04 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:27 milanj [n=milan@77.46.219.237] has joined #lisp 16:14:23 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:14:55 how do i stop slime from jumping to the first compilation note in the repl window? 16:18:00 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-31-185.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 16:20:44 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has quit [] 16:20:52 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@192.165.65.245] has left #lisp 16:21:10 That sound weird 16:22:17 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:22:25 Soulman [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 16:23:00 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:24:28 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:58 malsyned [n=malsyned@24-151-107-209.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:26:02 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78.60.73.85] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:27:05 Is it an error/bad idea to use uninterned symbols as a class name or a slot name? 16:27:33 The reason is to use a macro to create a class that only other functions generated by that macro can access. 16:28:38 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@95.65.241.57] has quit [No route to host] 16:29:35 Sounds a bit fishy, what exactly do you want? And why do you want to hide the class so much? 16:30:00 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-24-147-105-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:30:08 I'm working on a more complete defgenerator than is provided by what's currently available. 16:30:33 One of the nicest thing about Lisp is that you can get your hands on pretty much anything. Not necessarily to mess with it (if you do that, you're on your own), mostly to gain understanding 16:31:05 tcr: I'm just worried about polluting the namespace with implementation details 16:31:08 defgenerator is a python-style generator facility? 16:31:14 tcr: would be, yeah 16:31:41 -!- mbishop_ is now known as mbishop 16:31:44 Well if you really care, put it into a "subpackage" of yours. (There are no real subpackages, but you can name yours foo.generator) 16:34:07 Yeah, I'm also considering that as a possibility. I'm just curious about how CLOS would deal with uninterned class and slot names. 16:35:54 works fine 16:36:02 hang on to 'em 16:36:10 Xach: good advice ;) 16:36:23 dysinger [n=dysinger@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:24 -!- Reav___ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:37:41 -!- cracki [n=cracki@43-180.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 16:38:33 malsyned: as a slot name, it should work. it's an uncommon technique, though 16:39:00 -!- Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:39:22 htk_ [n=htk___@95.65.241.57] has joined #lisp 16:39:39 fe[nl]ix: uncommon indeed. But what do other programs do when they wish to create a utility class as an implementation detail of a macro? 16:39:42 -!- dysinger` [n=dysinger@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:39:59 that in itself I would think is pretty uncommon 16:40:01 Just name the class appropriately? 16:40:16 What exactly is your problem with doing so? 16:40:27 What namespace do you think you'll pollute? 16:40:43 (Answer: your own! Why should I care about that?) 16:41:30 tcr: I agree that making my own package for the sole purpose of filling it up with utility class names is a legitimate approach. But if it were the preferred approach then why don't all macros do that instead of using GENSYM? 16:42:08 Why does your macro create a new class anyway? For what purpose? 16:43:28 malsyned: Uninterned symbols can, in principle, become garbage. (Won't probably happen for an uninterned symbol that's the name of a class) 16:43:46 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-101-241.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:43:57 tcr: also won't probably happen for a symbol that is used in a call to MAKE-INSTANCE 16:44:20 -!- Dr_Robert_Rey [n=user5442@187.34.41.194] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:44:21 tcr: in Python and C#, generators work by returning an iterator that is a member of a class that is created by the compiler when it encounters a generator function. I intended to implement the same behavior. 16:44:40 I think for the sake of debuggability, I'd give the classes names based on the parameters of the macro 16:45:11 malsyned: What does "member of a class" mean? What advantage does it have? 16:45:39 I'd expect a new _class_ for each defgenerator tlf 16:45:47 erm I'd _not_ 16:46:04 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:46:04 a new class for each defgenerator would be analogous to the behavior in other languages. 16:46:59 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-101-241.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:47:31 The advantage is in having all generators implement the same interface, something like ITERATOR-EMPTY-P and ITERATOR-NEXT so that standard facilities for iterating over their members can be provided. 16:47:58 that's what mixins are for 16:48:00 -!- Witch_Doc [n=me@69.196.64.134] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:48:09 WitchDoc [n=me@69.196.64.134] has joined #lisp 16:48:33 -!- WitchDoc is now known as Witch_Doc 16:48:43 malsyned: Uh, so return an instance of some class for which generic functions are specialized on that class 16:49:31 DEFUN defines a function object, not an instance of some unique subclass of FUNCTION 16:49:35 tcr: defgenerator does not return a class. Calling the generator-function that defgenerator defines returns an instance of that class, exactly as you described. 16:49:38 (defmethod iterator-next (obj my-obj-class) ..) 16:50:08 dcrawford: yes, that's exactly how it would work. the issue I'm dealing with is trying to avoid polluting a namespace with the name of my-obj-class 16:50:35 malsyned: Defgenerator should define a generator object which probably should be a funcallable instance 16:50:58 I don't see the point to define a new class for each defgenerator toplevel form 16:51:47 Then you should read the Python or C# generator APIs until you achieve enlightenment. 16:52:12 Thanks for your help, though, guys. I think I've got a good idea of my options now. 16:52:28 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-72-97.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:52:32 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-97-48.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:52:44 How do you come to think that blindingly copying APIs is a good idea? 16:52:58 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-24-147-105-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:47 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:53:49 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:54:21 tcr: I'm not blindly copying APIs, but I see the wisdom of creating a new class in response to defgenerator so that every call to the also-created generator function can return a unique instance of it. So that, say, you can have two infinite lists of integers being traversed at once from different positions, for example. 16:54:42 malsyned, uh, closures? 16:55:26 malsyned: I question the wisdom in that. 16:55:42 *danlei* fetches some popcorn 16:56:08 danlei: don't get too excited, I unfortunately don't have the time to stick around and have this flamewar. 16:56:16 :) 16:56:16 Instances of the same class are generally completely independent from each other 16:56:38 It's offensive if you call our discussion flaming 16:57:02 You're missing something crucial. I'm trying to get at what it is. 16:57:38 tcr: My apologies - perhaps the wrong word, I was just teasing danlei. 16:57:38 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Client Quit] 16:58:46 tcr: The fact remains, though, I have to cut this discussion short. I was just popping in to look for a simple answer, not to have an indepth design review. I appreciate your help, though, and hopefully when I do come back with more time looking for deeper help, you'll be around. 16:59:36 malsyned: Define a class GENERATOR which is a funcallable instance (i.e. it's callable like a function), and NEXT &c specialize on that. DEFGENERATOR then sets the symbol-function slot to a GENERATOR instance 17:00:17 Can you follow this? If so, is there any problem with doing in this way that I do not see? 17:00:20 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:00:27 I think I'm following you. 17:00:28 tcr: how do I make a class that is funcallable? 17:01:09 It's not totally portable, but I think the portability layer closer-mop enables you to do that on most implementations 17:01:10 However, I can't specialize NEXT just on the GENERATOR class, because each defgenerator defines a different behavior for NEXT. 17:01:36 Heh that's true 17:01:54 Hence the need for a new subclass of GENERATOR for each defgenerator. 17:02:06 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:02:46 The generator object should have a NEXT slot where you put some closure in 17:02:59 IamRational [n=user5442@187.34.41.194] has joined #lisp 17:03:12 OK, now that is an interesting alternative. 17:04:18 Actually, I think I just might like that. I'll have to roll it around in my head some, but yeah, that might simplify things some. 17:04:21 -!- IamRational is now known as dalton 17:04:40 Anyway, now I'm totally late, so I've got to go. Thanks everybody. 17:04:41 Your way of doing would probably not be as fishy if there were truly anonymous classes. OTOH anonymous classes are probably more heavy-weight than closures 17:05:13 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:31 tcr: I was trying to create anonymous classes using gensyms. I still think that's probably a valid approach, but using closures that way probably is more efficient anyway. 17:05:54 dysinger` [n=dysinger@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:07 -!- malsyned [n=malsyned@24-151-107-209.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:06:21 malsyned: just arrived and your last line peeked my interest. Can you repost the closure approach? 17:06:37 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.178.241] has joined #lisp 17:06:48 malsyned: if it's not too long and conversational 17:06:59 malsyned is gone 17:07:15 *AAaawwwww* 17:07:20 I just noticed 17:07:21 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:07:47 I'll survive 17:08:05 -!- jauaor [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [] 17:08:46 Ginei_Morioka hey hey 17:08:56 Moe111 hey hey 17:09:07 dalton hey hye 17:09:32 i'll survive 17:09:34 hey hey] 17:09:36 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:09:39 this is a classical stuff 17:11:44 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:12:24 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 17:12:39 krumholt__ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-52-254.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:12:48 tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 17:12:51 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-72-97.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:13:01 -!- Ogedei [n=user@e178208109.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:15:39 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-55-207-173.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:17:36 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@95.65.241.57] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:23:54 cadabra [n=cadabra@adsl-69-107-134-109.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:35 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:10 -!- dalton [n=user5442@187.34.41.194] has quit ["eject"] 17:32:58 seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:33:02 a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has joined #lisp 17:33:37 Lisp macros are essentially a search and replace on code. Perl and Python are 17:33:37 good at string processing. Hence it would naively appear you could add hooks 17:33:37 to the Perl and Python interpreters, compilers, parsers to add macros like in 17:33:38 Lisp no? 17:34:37 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 17:34:46 <_3b> code != strings, but if you don't mind modifying interpreters/compilers, you can do whatever you want 17:35:08 -!- a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has left #lisp 17:35:32 _3b: code != strings yes but Python has eval if that matters 17:35:48 _3b: you can modify strings and then eval it in Python 17:35:50 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:02 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-101-241.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:36:23 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-122-236.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:36:38 good luck with that 17:36:38 <_3b> with strings you need to parse the string to modify it correctly, same problem you get in c/c++ macros 17:36:40 _3b: maybe there is something i'm missing that's basic here 17:37:36 seb-: if you do that you get something like tcl 17:37:38 that in lisp, the parse tree is what is exposed, not the textual representation of source code 17:37:40 seb-: A string is a linear datastructure, but program code is usually a tree 17:37:40 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdsler076.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:37:41 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-122-236.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:38:38 <_3b> my point was more that if you are modifying the language, you might as well replace the whiespace stuff with parens, fix scoping, change the libs, etc until you have a real lisp :p 17:38:50 Guest51784 [n=user@xdsl-87-78-122-236.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:38:50 tcr: the code is an abstract syntax tree yes i agree...and i agree it is safer to operate on the AST then the string 17:39:25 operating on the AST is not necessarily convenient either. The meta ocaml, and haskell stuff does not seem to gain much traction. 17:39:51 tcr: i also agree the lisp ast is nicer than other languages's asts 17:40:04 a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has joined #lisp 17:40:11 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:40:36 -!- Guest51784 is now known as sepult 17:40:39 That's not quite true either. It's Lisp's homoiconicity that makes its nice. 17:40:47 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-122-236.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:40:57 dysinger [n=dysinger@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:57 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-122-236.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:41:10 tcr: well at the very least it would be relatively easy to give python and perl the power of the c preprocessor i guess 17:41:25 -!- sepult is now known as Guest34310 17:41:28 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:28 tcr: maybe full blown lisp macros would be a little more heavy 17:41:40 seb-: There's a Python module that gives you access to the Python AST. 17:42:06 -!- Guest34310 [n=user@xdsl-87-78-122-236.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:42:06 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:43:12 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-122-236.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:43:59 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@adsl-69-107-134-109.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:44:38 josemanuel [n=josemanu@94.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:45:05 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:45:31 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:33 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 17:46:08 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:47:19 -!- ole3 [n=user@62.96.71.236] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:48:59 -!- seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 17:51:31 -!- dysinger` [n=dysinger@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Success] 17:52:13 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 17:52:23 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:26 v0|d [n=user@213.232.33.243] has joined #lisp 17:55:33 hi there. 17:59:11 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-24-147-105-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 18:01:25 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-73-140.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:02:47 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has joined #lisp 18:03:39 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:58 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:06:46 hmmm... anyone knows if there exists something like SLIME for JavaScript? 18:07:24 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-vjdyipmewitjmovz] has joined #lisp 18:07:51 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:08:41 -!- zeroish [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:10:04 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p4FD3D766.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:10:58 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:11:10 -!- macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:11:17 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.178.241] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:11:21 -!- thunk` [n=thunk@74-130-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has left #lisp 18:13:45 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 18:15:29 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 18:16:12 p_l: Last time I looked at javascript (two years ago), you could download into Firefox a javascript "debugger" named Firebug. Not very good. 18:16:32 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:17:32 p_l: Perhaps dojo has something like that, (I doubt it), but you could write some ajax to fetch expressions from the server, evaluate them in the browser, and return the results to the server. Then you could hook emacs to the server to send javascript expressions and retrive the result. 18:17:39 p_l: Have fun! 18:18:33 pjb: what I would love to have would be to connect to Firefox like you connect to CL implementation :) 18:19:30 <[Jackal]> And a JS REPL? ;> 18:19:30 p_l: look into mozrepl 18:20:11 if it's only javascript you want, you could do without the browser. a hypothetical "js-swank" running on rhino or spidermonkey would be more like swank for CL 18:20:45 zeroish [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 18:20:56 http://hyperstruct.net/projects/mozrepl 18:20:58 Steve Yegge's js2-mode (I think) isn't too horrible. 18:21:09 whereis *da* bot? 18:21:11 It's no Slime, of course. But what is? 18:21:31 Not even Slime, these days. 18:21:53 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B53F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:55 Heh 18:22:17 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:24:04 Slime's not Slime without that aweful start animation 18:24:31 take this repl brother, and may it serve you well. 18:25:34 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:27:44 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 18:31:38 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-55-207-173.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:10 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-69-232-209-21.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:25 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1B9D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 18:33:47 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:36:28 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@94.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 18:37:01 *antifuchs* seconds splittist's and v0|d's recommendation 18:37:07 using those two, and they're very good 18:37:38 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["going out on a high!"] 18:37:47 (took a bit of hacking so it lets me C-c C-c javascript definitions to firefox, but now that this works, I'm a happy camper) 18:38:06 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-087-052.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:08 -!- tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:38:33 yeah, last time I've checked out mozrepl it was a far cry from that 18:39:03 antifuchs: actually i was pretending the bot. 18:39:45 p_l: well, it works for me. just about a screenful of elisp or two to make it work mostly-reliably 18:39:53 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:39:53 basically, it's ilisp for your browser 18:39:55 which is nice 18:40:10 not as "omg this is awesome" as swank, but much better than the alternatives (: 18:41:26 maybe it is due to the lack of starup animation. 18:41:44 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.161.47.184] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:41:47 i'm happy that i've unregistred from slime-devel. 18:41:52 it was pain. 18:42:16 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 18:42:16 interesting 18:42:50 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:26 -!- Geralt1 [n=Geralt@p5B32BD02.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:45:02 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:48:11 yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@93-120-156-53.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 18:49:29 -!- est [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 18:50:01 currently which lisp project is very *active*? 18:50:07 any ideas? 18:50:33 the topic names some 18:50:46 what's "very active"? 18:51:33 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32BD02.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:07 10 commits per day maybe? 18:52:47 that sounds like "very buggy" 18:52:55 stassats`: heh 18:53:58 Hun [n=Hun@p4FD3D766.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:23 bashyal [n=bashyal@ip67-95-202-227.z202-95-67.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:33 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-69-232-209-21.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:06:18 -!- [Jackal] [n=x@118.95.42.144] has left #lisp 19:11:03 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit ["The computer fell asleep"] 19:11:23 tales2010 [n=tales@san-gw-01.san.psi.br] has joined #lisp 19:11:55 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@ip67-95-202-227.z202-95-67.customer.algx.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:12:38 Hello. What do I need to install to run a Common Lisp program? 19:12:57 a Common Lisp implementation 19:13:30 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:13:36 minion: Common Lisp implementation 19:13:37 Common Lisp implementation: Free Common Lisp implementations and their *features*. http://www.cliki.net/Common%20Lisp%20implementation 19:14:03 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:15:33 matley [n=matley@83.224.218.234] has joined #lisp 19:15:59 what's the most used implementation? 19:16:04 CLisp? 19:16:17 no one knows 19:16:28 <_3b> sbcl and ccl seem popular in this channel at least 19:16:48 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:17:12 if I have a couple of structures representing nodes in a cyclic graph, was there some command to disable pretty printing at the repl, so it won't loop infinitely? :) 19:17:19 tales2010: out of free implmentations, I'd definitely recommend SBCL and CCL. CLisp as last resort, I guess :) 19:17:32 <_3b> clhs *print-circle* 19:17:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_cir.htm 19:17:53 thanks 19:18:39 excellent, just what I wanted :) 19:18:40 joga: also *print-level* 19:18:45 SBCL if you're running on linux, probably CCL if on Mac or Windows, then ECL, then clisp. And that's assuming you don't have money to pay for commercial impl. 19:18:52 p_l, ok 19:18:54 :) 19:18:59 michaelw, thanks, that'll come in handy too 19:20:43 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 19:21:12 vadim [n=vadim@93.175.234.27] has joined #lisp 19:22:27 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit [Client Quit] 19:25:19 dysinger [n=dysinger@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:29 -!- yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@93-120-156-53.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:27:52 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 19:28:33 dalton [n=user5442@189-19-116-156.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 19:29:25 segv [n=mb@p4FC1B9D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:45 [Jackal] [n=jkl2k5@118.95.42.144] has joined #lisp 19:34:23 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 19:38:57 bashyal [n=bashyal@ip67-95-202-227.z202-95-67.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:04 -!- matley [n=matley@83.224.218.234] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:39:39 mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #lisp 19:39:55 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:40:25 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:43:11 http://sykosomatic.org/tutorial.html  do any of you guys run this webpage? I was wondering whatever happened to the .PNG files. 19:43:50 i guess it's sykopomp's 19:44:44 He's not here. 19:44:56 Is there a memobot here? 19:45:03 minion: help memos? 19:45:04 To send a memo, say something like ``minion: memo for nick: the memo''. I'll remember the memo for any nick which is the same as the given nick, +/- differences in punctuation, and any nick which is an alias for it, and give it to them when they next speak. 19:46:01 minion: memo for sykopomp: Supposing this webpage is run by you http://sykosomatic.org/tutorial.html just wanted to say, that the PNG files are missing or won't load, or both... 19:46:01 Remembered. 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[n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:49:00 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:50:17 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 20:51:41 francogrex [n=franco@91.178.118.159] has joined #lisp 20:51:50 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@ip67-95-202-227.z202-95-67.customer.algx.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:53:13 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-146-91.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:53:39 I seem to have plateaued in my learning of lisp :( 20:53:49 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 20:54:06 where are you now ? 20:54:14 you think 20:54:34 what do you suggest as a next step: take the hyperspecs and everyday read an entry and do an example? 20:54:40 sepult: 20:54:57 i do read the cltl and the hpyerspec now at the same time 20:55:23 however noting that the cltl is the older version 20:55:34 and the ansi spec got even some changes 20:55:36 I am able to do simple stuff like you know, some data management programs 20:55:59 and don't know to which is emacs lisp closer ansi or cltl 20:56:19 and all other implementations sbcl ...clisp closer to which 20:56:26 sepult: I only do ansi, why bother about old cltl? 20:56:36 all closer to ansi. 20:56:42 are you new to lisp? 20:56:51 maybe 20:56:54 lol 20:57:16 it seems; everything going more and more towards ansi 20:57:42 so does the hpyerspec represent the recent ansi ? 20:57:44 i've heard reading paip is one way 20:58:03 probably good for learning programming, in general 20:58:06 guaqua: paip is one way to improve 20:58:27 onlisp is another one 20:58:38 but it was something in between cltl and ansi i think 20:59:03 guaqua: paip is very hard and is more oriented towards AI. I don't care what simple people think of PAIP as a mainly Cl book it's not it's at least 50% Cl and 50% AI 20:59:27 sepult: on lisp by graham is old but ok 20:59:38 i just got a few chapters of paip experimenting 20:59:43 superseded by graham's ansi common lisp 20:59:52 yes i want to get to that one 20:59:59 but have to buy it i think 21:00:05 I'm interested to hear from the experts 21:00:13 and let over lambda 21:00:19 and SICP 21:00:27 Emacs Lisp is a survivor from a pre-CL era of Lisp, and is very far away from all other Lisps, though the differences are not obvious on the surface. 21:00:30 sepult: yes it's to be bought try amazon 21:00:48 and keens CLOS 21:01:15 dysinger [n=dysinger@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:34 now the list is growing 21:01:35 lol 21:01:37 sepult: the best to start with is david Lambkin's and graham's ansi common lisp 21:01:45 I have just read the 4 public chapters of LoL 21:02:05 i read the closette 21:02:10 whaht's LoL pls use full title 21:02:11 MOP 21:02:33 francogrex: Let over Lambda FWIR. 21:02:48 is that common lisp or scheme? 21:03:03 but i can't bootstrap closette with the current implementatinos i have 21:03:22 francogrex: Definitely CL. 21:03:49 sepult: are you joking or something? 21:04:01 lol 21:04:03 why = 21:04:05 ? 21:04:54 closette is just another CLOS, and CLOS is already builtin in most implementations 21:04:59 there are clashes 21:05:11 i think one has to know how to 21:05:22 and i'm not that advanced 21:06:05 Let over Lambda doesn't seem to have good reviewss and doesn't match Graham's books 21:06:26 so bye now 21:06:28 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-122-236.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:10:08 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:10:13 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-142-74.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:11:14 francogrex: definitely, PAIP is worth reading, as well as SICP; but if you're plateauing, I'd say you should program more! Take some interesting challenge! 21:11:33 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229114076.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 21:11:59 it might just take time, repeats :) 21:12:41 pjb: I am willing to take challenges and maybe the run-of-themill programs that I do for work are repetitive routines that's why i'm plateauing 21:13:15 disumu [n=disumu@p54BCBBA1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:20 francogrex: yes, jobs are usually repeatitive. Try something new, and slightly hard. 21:13:47 but what are challenges and where to find them... like I might keep using lists instead of vectors even with new programs/types 21:14:15 I might never define new macros even with new program types 21:14:22 Not if you need to implement some fast algorithms needing direct access. 21:14:39 Not if you need some complex system needing new syntactical abstractions. 21:15:07 You must choose something that's a little hard to make it worthwhile and challenging. 21:15:35 For example, implement a unix shell using natural language as user interface. 21:15:36 pjb: true. since we're on this, I just used a profiler for a program the other day and discoivered that remove-duplicates on lists was slowing dowsn so i changed to vecthe problem 21:15:42 you could try over-engineering your work a little :) 21:15:53 or do a hobby-project to try out a new approach 21:16:16 pjb: yes, need to do not just new projects, but more sofistcated ones 21:16:40 anyone suggets working on a project together? 21:16:55 (it shouldn't be too diffucult but) 21:17:01 francogrex: imagine: "delete all jpeg I took last week". "open the document about macro I was reading last week". "make some space on this disk partition". 21:17:31 francogrex: if you want a team project, there are a lot of them, search one on common-lisp.net for example. 21:18:25 pjb: all those are ongoing or some are completed? 21:18:45 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has joined #lisp 21:18:53 Some are completed, but most are in need of maintenance anyways. 21:19:18 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:23:15 anyone knows how to define an empty production rule in cl-yacc? 21:23:33 francogrex: you might have fun with cl-smogames http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-smogames 21:23:47 weirdo: nonTerminal : ; 21:24:18 weirdo: oops. cl-yacc. I've been doing a yacc grammar yesterday.... 21:24:30 i wonder if an empty list will work 21:24:40 Probably. 21:24:46 i haven't yet written any code, i'm still designing the protocol 21:26:26 pjb: another topic. I want to download clpython but can't find a tarball. How would I get it using ecl or sbcl and asd-install (so i get all with depencies)? 21:27:25 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:27:46 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:52 francogrex: http://common-lisp.net/project/clpython says the source code is hosted on github. 21:28:03 francogrex: so I'd say a git clone command would be in order. 21:28:26 git clone? 21:28:30 I'd guess you can get the dependencies with asdf-install. 21:28:33 google git 21:28:47 *francogrex* sratches head and emits monkeys sounds 21:29:13 http://justfuckinggoogleit.com/git should be helpful. 21:29:13 <_3b> you could try http://github.com/franzinc/cl-python/tarball/master for a tarball link 21:29:47 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:30:47 jcowan: you're dumb 21:31:14 even more than I am 21:31:21 <_3b> yeah, forgot the ?q= :p 21:31:24 clpython is slower than the C interpreter :( 21:31:30 _3b: True. 21:31:44 francogrex: jere 21:31:53 -!- xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:32:01 francogrex: here's a challenge: make clpython faster tha C python! 21:32:22 If cl-ppcre can be faster than perl regexps, clpython can be faster than C python! 21:32:40 Um, well, no. 21:33:02 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:34:32 -!- |doylent| [n=doylent@host158-53-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 21:34:32 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-152.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:34:33 pjb: those are very good projects but need to work on them within a team 21:35:01 Contact the project maintainers! 21:35:47 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:37:17 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:37:19 zeroish` [n=zeroish@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:57 Ifur [n=osm@2.84-48-92.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:39:26 pjb: ok, but anyone how would you use asdf install within ecl it wasn't successful. i can do (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :whatever) only after downloaded independly the asdf package 21:39:59 but i know you can use Cl to download ands install immediatly 21:40:06 all in once with all depencies 21:40:17 my spelling is horrible 21:40:29 maybe I should work on that instead of CL :p 21:41:02 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [] 21:41:20 You can do however you want. If asdf-install doesn't work, you could help debug it. If it works, why would you install manually? 21:41:29 Xach, are you the so-called Zach Beane? 21:41:31 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-126-175.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:41:50 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p54BCBBA1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:41:53 a couple of things come to mind: you could debug it and learn something in the process. It also might take a while until you understand why ecl is not downloading. you could also use another lisp to download the packages, and then just use them with ecl 21:42:35 michaelw: ok but like what instrauctions would you use in say sbcl? 21:43:10 (asdf-install:install :whatever) 21:43:17 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host94-170-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:43:59 then again, I mostly use clbuild these days 21:44:16 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@217-5-249.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 21:44:51 >>There is no package with the name ASDF-INSTALL. 21:45:11 (require 'asdf) is not enough it seems 21:45:25 asdf-install is a separate thing 21:46:37 hmm, so i must first asdf-install asdf-install? seems like metacircular programming paradox 21:48:23 francogrex: thanksfully, there are other means to install packages... 21:48:30 <_3b> try (require 'asdf-install), if that doesn't work, you may have to install it by hand 21:49:23 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:02 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:51:23 anyway, this is all described in the asdf-install tutorial. which is the first google hit for "asdf-install tutorial". 21:51:34 3b: indeed require asdf-install works not on ecl 21:51:51 -!- timor1 [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:51:54 and in sbcl it works but then this: 21:52:24 * Install where? 1) System-wide install: ... 21:52:53 debugger invoked on a ASDF-INSTALL::DOWNLOAD-ERROR: Server responded 404 for GET http://www.cliki.net/ADW-CHARTING?download 21:55:37 <_3b> looks like adw-charting isn't ASDF-INSTALLable then, so ask google where to get a tarball, or install it by hand 21:56:35 _3b: ok so it's the asdf package then not my sbcl or PC 21:56:40 (asdf-install:install "http://common-lisp.net/project/adw-charting/adw-charting.tar.gz") should work 21:56:41 <_3b> (or use clbuild, but it might not know about all the things you want either) 21:56:43 *francogrex* relieved 21:57:03 <_3b> none of the above, actually 21:57:10 gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 21:57:17 <_3b> it means there isn't a link on cliki telling asdf-install where to get the file 21:57:31 TuxPurple_ [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 21:58:02 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p4FD3D766.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:58:06 <_3b> so you have to tell it by hand as michaelw suggested, or install it using some other method 21:58:10 why is EQUALP case-insensitive on strings? that's retarded 21:58:18 it makes the predicate useless 21:58:34 Because Lispers can't tell the difference between "polish" and "Polish", obviously. 21:58:42 weirdo: EQUAL is case-sensitive 21:58:47 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:59:04 (and yes, I didn't answer your question) 21:59:37 The fact is that both EQUAL and EQUALP do what they do for historical reasons, and you're just plain lucky if they also happen to do what *you* want to do. Each is a package of features, and you get what you get. If you don't like them, write your own equality predicates, making sure that they are idempotent, reflexive, and transitive. 22:00:00 weirdo: indeed, it is retarded. 22:00:02 wierdo then use equal which is case sensitive or string= 22:00:05 Adlai, but EQUAL doesn't match arrays/structs deeply 22:00:17 i just read a post by the ruby troll, William James 22:00:24 weirdo: yep. The set of equality predicates in CL are terrible. 22:00:25 -!- TuxPurple_ is now known as TuxPurple 22:00:26 i think he's right, CL is a piece of cruft 22:00:50 francogrex: that is the same as me 22:00:58 there should be some non-turing-complete DSL for defining equality predicates, then SXHASH would compute itself without writing it 22:01:00 jcowan: sounds correct... lots of stuff could use tidying 22:01:31 weirdo: sounds complicated. 22:01:36 Thinking you coud have one equality structure that fills all needs is silly 22:01:44 Indeed. 22:01:53 at least there are reasons for the cruft to exist. unlike in some other languages where some of the cruft was never thought through... 22:02:04 most languages define two equality predicates, which together are good enough for most uses. 22:02:07 there are 4 different types of equality 22:02:32 guaqua: I don't know that that's much of a distinction. CL has a lot of things which exist because some hacker back in the 70s threw them together one day. 22:02:39 so for each level of nesting you would probaly want a different equality 22:02:46 one: generic equals, user defined for user defined types. two: object identity. 22:03:11 jcowan: well...at least they are documented, i guess :) 22:03:25 at least you can choose between different types of cruft, rather than having the languages author (proclaim (type (eql 1) ways-to-do-it)) 22:03:45 The only place I use equalp is for prototying and then I strick to lists as the basic structure 22:04:20 EQUALP is the only standard way to descend structures without knowing what they are. This may be accounted good or bad. 22:04:27 guaqua, yes, it's bearable. and not worth it to switch to a new language and leave good libraries behind 22:05:11 people say "move to clojure and use java libraries". but java libraries don't have good protocols (no macros in java) and they aren't hackable to the extent CLOS classes are 22:05:42 jcowan: use a defmethod then. That is more robust 22:05:51 jcowan, stuff in the CL package exists because people forming the committee insisted 22:05:53 Henry Baker proposed the EGAL predicate, which is like EQ for mutable objects, like EQUAL for immutable ones. 22:06:09 they "needed" all their ad-hoc cruft in the CL package, instead of a compatibility package 22:06:22 weirdo: Well, yes, and they insisted because that stuff was entrenched in their code, but not because it was necessarily well designed. 22:06:26 which seems to be some kind of pride, i guess 22:06:33 Ot 22:06:36 It's economics. 22:06:45 It's better if your code Just Works. 22:07:02 Also, packages were added late (and IMHO badly) 22:07:07 really? it's a matter of additional entry in :USE in DEFPACKAGE 22:07:16 DEFPACKAGE was added *really* late. 22:07:20 yeah, there are no hierarchical packages, symbol table isn't weak 22:07:46 didn't some of CL's parent lisps have packages for a long time before? 22:08:24 c|mell [n=cmell@KD124213182069.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:08:25 Packages are a run-time data structure introduced to solve a compile-time problem, fundamentally. What matters is having different packages for identifiers, not for (runtime) symbols. 22:09:55 well, FIND-CLASS can be considered a "package" in that sense 22:10:09 also, you can't really alias symbols (although it's possible to get close) 22:10:38 -!- v0|d [n=user@213.232.33.243] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:11:01 foom: I don't know the answer to that. 22:11:19 man, I'm still downloading and installing depencies by hand, it's ovre 10 now 22:11:37 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:11:42 -!- uman is now known as uman_boring 22:12:14 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:12:33 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.219.237] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:12:36 -!- serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-146-91.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:14:56 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 22:15:04 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:15:46 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:18:44 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:20:01 Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:26 -!- alexsuraci1 [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [No route to host] 22:24:33 alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:35 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:26:38 -!- francogrex [n=franco@91.178.118.159] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:32:46 rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:33:11 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:33:24 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has quit [] 22:33:30 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:35:06 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit ["bye"] 22:35:32 -!- nha [n=prefect@17-70.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:41:20 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:41:45 zenbalrog [n=johnnyc@adsl-75-5-181-47.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:57 gonzojive [n=red@122.161.150.179] has joined #lisp 22:47:05 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1AC7.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:48:15 borism [n=boris@195-50-197-130-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 22:48:41 auclairb [n=auclairb@modemcable110.210-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:48:56 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@modemcable110.210-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 22:52:56 -!- borism__ [n=boris@195-50-197-130-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:53:19 -!- malsyned [n=malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 22:58:07 register [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 22:58:35 -!- register is now known as Guest34556 23:02:23 serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-153-113.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:02:28 good evening 23:03:03 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:51 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 23:07:48 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:08:57 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:11:11 blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 23:14:31 seangrove [n=user@adsl-69-225-113-166.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:38 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2942.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:53 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:16:53 -!- Guest34556 is now known as Symmetry- 23:17:37 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1B9D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 23:17:58 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 23:18:21 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:35 tmilford [n=tmilford@76.89.231.7] has joined #lisp 23:23:41 -!- seangrove [n=user@adsl-69-225-113-166.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:24:17 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.141.180] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:28:11 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:28:26 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:57 seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 23:34:48 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 23:35:52 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:37:27 possible to make a regex that can determine valid lisp expressions? 23:37:38 at least parens match up? 23:37:47 seems you'd need a recursive regex so not sure 23:38:00 seb-: a regexp, yes, a regular expression, no. 23:38:16 Guest98249: you beat me in time :D 23:38:18 -!- Guest98249 is now known as pkhuong 23:38:50 seb-: It is not possible. 23:39:05 pkhuong: can you define recursivity in a regexp? 23:39:12 seb-: this is the basic theorem of grammar theory... 23:39:22 you need a CFG 23:39:32 madnificent: exactly, problem is you can nest sexps as deep as you like in lisp 23:39:55 seb-: context free grammatics would solve it... but I guess we don't have anything for that? 23:39:56 i remember back when i used perl, i was using regexps everywhere, now in Lisp i rarely need them 23:46:43 I updated my SBCL version yesterday, and now programs that use Lispbuilder-sdl crash when they try to exit. The error is an SB-KERNEL::UNDEFINED-ALIEN-FUNCTION-ERROR. Any ideas? 23:48:33 stassats`: I can think of two reasons for that: you maybe solving a different type of problem now; and regexps are integrated much more deeply into perl than in lisp. 23:49:04 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-57-157.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:53:26 -!- dalton is now known as Agronopolus 23:53:44 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.12.93] has joined #lisp 23:57:40 pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:59:54 -!- Agronopolus is now known as dalton