00:00:05 jcowan: get your think on 00:00:10 you think that right ?> 00:00:13 Adamant: not sure of that. But yes, my reflections on roman catholic doctrine got me to the point where I thought that it's modern version isn't for people who don't think 00:00:15 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1DAC9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:00:40 p_l: what I meant was, everyone thinks God prefers people like themselves, for the most part :P 00:00:48 heh 00:00:55 yeah murders definitely do 00:01:01 L:P 00:01:02 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:01:11 God writes in Lisp, too 00:01:15 LOL 00:01:22 he wouldnt waste his time ? 00:01:28 Adamant: well, I don't really think so. I expect interesting trial in Purgatory ^^; 00:01:31 stassats: the rumors about his love affair with Perl are greatly exaggerated 00:02:11 no 00:02:19 God obviously loves making things 00:02:27 for that he would need an efficient lang ;) 00:02:32 Munroe is a heretic 00:03:00 his AI is overratted tho :P 00:03:22 rodt: our I runs on very inefficient hw 00:03:54 lol thats nice you know that, when the experts still cant calc its effienciy 00:04:01 i want your files :P 00:04:49 rodt: I meant that if copied the structure 1-1 using the technology that is currently developed, we would get it on a much smaller chip :D 00:05:03 p_l: no, we wouldn't 00:05:20 it would actually be planet sizeed 00:05:21 Adamant: Actually, the projection is a few cubic centimeters 00:05:25 but if you think thats small... heh 00:05:34 you should see how much computer power they are using to simulate 1mmx1mm section of neurons from a brain 00:05:41 it is not even close 00:05:50 Adamant: that's because you're talking about *simulation* 00:05:50 and its just cell granularity 00:05:54 of a few... 00:05:55 well, use not general hardware? 00:06:54 Adamant: a copy of neural structure using rod logic would be smaller than rubic cube and probably much more efficient, as our neural connections are an ugly hack with regards to speed 00:07:24 p_l: except AFAIK we can't build meaningful stuff with nanorods yet 00:07:26 but we dont know how neurones work... so.. ?? 00:07:40 ... let's go shopping! 00:07:56 rodt: most problems is in how they are connected, not how they work themselves 00:08:07 p_l: that one's obvious -- duct tape. 00:08:08 thats what you may think lol 00:08:16 maybe the problem is the same ? 00:08:28 rodt: well, that's what they taught me in university about that :P 00:08:29 maybe they are missing the brain stuff 00:08:34 and its not even nerones... 00:08:48 they are just the bed for it or the bin or something 00:10:20 -!- zoldar [n=zoldar@kyh66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:10:43 rodt: right now I'm sticking with physical explanation, but it's possible to speculate about a soul from scientific perspective. The problem is that so far we don't have evidence for its existence, so we can't even make a hypothesis unless we disprove physical-only theories 00:11:17 lol you believe theres only nerones in the brain doing stuff ? 00:11:31 and maybe something magic called a soul ? 00:11:38 what is this the middle ages lol :P 00:12:10 rodt: Lisp *is* an efficient language. 00:12:11 rodt: No, I'm only using Devil's proof that there might a possible bigger structure that we can't yet measure 00:12:18 Nerone? The one who burned Rom? 00:12:31 jcowan compared to yeah... 00:12:42 we dont know what Gods other langs are :P 00:13:57 rodt: Arc, ofc. 00:14:08 theres enough measured things tho p_l 00:14:25 God wrote the universe in Arc! 00:14:35 oh dear 00:14:37 *Adlai* ducks 00:14:39 rodt: that's what I said that there's possibility that after going after all neural pathways we might find stuff that doesn't add up 00:14:48 then i surely don't believe in such God 00:15:15 stassats: it gets worse, because Larry Wall is his prophet. 00:15:53 God has *many* prophets. 00:15:58 *p_l* would love to use red to disprove Adlai's claims but he is not a witch 00:16:40 seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:16:44 Arc sounds sweet, in comparison 00:16:58 p_l: "red"? 00:17:09 Hey all, have a bit of extra money and would like to invest the time to become at least semi-proficient in lisp. Recommendations? 00:17:23 minion: please tell seangrove about paip 00:17:24 Any particularly good books, tutorials, etc.? 00:17:25 seangrove: look at paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/paip 00:17:30 minion: tell seangrove about PCL 00:17:30 seangrove: have a look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 00:17:39 (also available for free) 00:17:52 Adlai: red text. Obscure reference to a certain visual novel, where sentences in red are considered unrefutable axioms under the rules of the game played between two characters 00:17:53 Ah, thank you :D 00:18:35 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:18:48 p_l: funny, my sayings are red in ERC 00:18:52 xD 00:19:02 stassats: Good point. 00:19:17 And that is, by the way, unrefutable...at least to my perception. 00:19:25 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:43 pcl+++ :D 00:20:00 oh 00:20:35 seangrove: actually, perception etc. was an important thing in that novel - one side tries to claim "witches&magic exist and could be the only cause of the events that transpired" while the other claims "All of the events that transpired could happen with only humans and no magic" 00:21:56 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:22:36 its always more likely there was no magic ;) 00:22:51 but no one can ever be 100% sure lol 00:23:08 rodt: actually Devil's Proof is used constantly in that story xD 00:23:21 hehe :) 00:24:29 -!- prip [n=_prip@host144-9-dynamic.7-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:25:36 prip [n=_prip@host144-9-dynamic.7-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 00:26:51 anyway its all wrong anyway, if God exists he/whatever would use the best language in the entire history of all universes.... which is.... 00:26:57 AI --- US !! lol 00:28:14 well any and every intelligent resource .... 00:29:36 miton [n=miton@ip72-218-24-12.hr.hr.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:49 paip is very good? 00:30:05 $58 good? 00:30:38 if you like throwing away money sure ;) 00:30:43 -!- miton [n=miton@ip72-218-24-12.hr.hr.cox.net] has left #lisp 00:31:06 Well... that's probably not me. 00:31:09 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 00:31:22 pcl is what you need i reckon 00:31:33 Alright, I'll start with that then 00:31:34 I think it's very good, but I'd recommend starting with PCL if you have programmed before 00:31:34 you can always buy a hardcopy if you really want to 00:31:49 bps [i=alvin@u.NF] has joined #lisp 00:32:00 Sounds good, thanks guys. 00:32:17 Also, as an aside, how different is elisp from CL? 00:32:22 Considerably so? 00:32:23 seangrove: PAIP is a very good book about CL. 00:32:25 quite different 00:32:29 seangrove: they are very different. 00:32:45 Alright, just mildly curious. 00:32:58 though, knowing elisp would be far more helpful Java 00:33:03 than Java 00:33:09 yeah well if you want an AI course thrown in, id suspect its ideal :) 00:33:29 rodt: Sounds good to me :D 00:33:35 ;) 00:33:38 Alright, I'll use the online reference for the time being 00:33:53 rodt: PAIP is not an AI course 00:34:18 It covers some of the tools in classical AI problems that are still useful. 00:34:36 and not only in AI 00:34:49 And also a great deal of pragmatic common lisp style 00:35:00 cool 00:35:53 -!- astertronistic [n=micknast@ip70-181-198-181.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:36:31 also shows some ... idiomatic uses of lisp, I guess 00:36:42 (I mean, how often you write compilers for your DSLs?) 00:36:54 DSL 's ? 00:37:05 rodt: Domain Specific Language 00:37:10 ah 00:37:23 PAIP has quite a lot of material on writing first interpreter, then a compiler 00:37:34 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2F234.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:37:46 ah sweet, thats that what i need right now lol 00:38:12 (it's in the later chapters) 00:38:22 Maybe I'll order the actualy book for paip then, sounds very interesting 00:40:31 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@88.208.105.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:43:05 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:43:24 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 00:44:44 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-12705.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:44:51 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:50:45 so, i install awesome window manager, but where would i find the config script? 00:50:48 heh 00:51:04 crap, wrong window 00:51:08 -!- warinthepocket [n=wipt@74-44-97-141.dr01.jrdn.mn.frontiernet.net] has left #lisp 01:01:19 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:01:52 -!- AgentX [n=x@118.95.41.44] has quit [Client Quit] 01:09:34 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:04 DakeDesu [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:14 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 01:18:57 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:20:17 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 01:22:34 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has joined #lisp 01:29:12 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:32 -!- ausente is now known as Evilside 01:31:02 -!- Evilside is now known as ausente 01:38:37 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@c-24-34-16-25.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 01:39:46 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:39:52 alexbobp_ [n=alex@adsl-75-34-100-218.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:16 KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:54 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@adsl-75-34-100-218.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:56:09 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-105-177.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:56:10 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:26 PCL implements a simple interpreter, then a compiler .. also 01:59:42 ITYM PAIP 01:59:57 no 02:00:19 given, it's very simple .. but the general idea, at least; chapter 30, then chapter 31 02:00:50 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:00:54 ah, for dsl 02:02:29 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@95.65.241.57] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:02:32 -!- DakeDesu [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:02:56 then there's prolog implementation, iirc 02:08:22 lisp and prolog sorta, gotcha ;) 02:09:26 yeah, paip has a prolog interpreter in ch. 11 .. and ch. 12 implements a prolog compiler based on stuff done in ch. 11 02:10:12 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 02:10:51 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:12:57 furia [n=nieve@cpe-74-68-142-205.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:12:58 hi 02:13:14 which revisioning program is favored for lisp? 02:13:51 do you mean version control? .. i think many seem to go for git these days 02:14:02 darcs is still common though 02:14:25 yes 02:15:17 ok thanks 02:15:42 furia: git, darcs, mercurial all work quite well 02:16:41 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:16:51 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 02:16:52 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:17:03 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:18:19 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:04 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [] 02:23:35 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:30:46 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:31:06 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:40 girzel [n=user@123.121.242.63] has joined #lisp 02:38:15 -!- mbishop_ is now known as mbishop 02:39:30 git is becoming more or less the standard (not a huge fan myself) 02:39:43 at least for DVCSs 02:42:21 Adamant: well, it is freaking fast, especially compared to some of my experiences with darcs 02:42:40 p_l: that is true, I'm still not a fan though. 02:45:14 well, darcs and git operate on different principles, afaik, so it's not a big surprise :) 02:45:51 git is more of a versioned, distributed filesystem ^_- 02:46:01 yeah I am a big darcs fan. but the slowness was, and to some degree still is, still an issue 02:46:04 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:46:09 and it's still not nearly as fast as git 02:48:26 despite using quite current darcs, I ended up having to delete and redownload clbuild tree once when darcs pull took over an hour of applying patches 02:49:54 get a real computer 02:51:27 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:51:43 lol you mean a "real" crap computer 02:51:59 dcooper8 [n=dcooper8@c-71-205-172-135.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:09 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:52:10 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:54:26 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.147.222] has joined #lisp 02:55:28 stassats: I didn't expect darcs to require a 6GHz POWER6 pSeries with DRAM/FLASH RAID10 array 02:55:41 -!- dcooper8 [n=dcooper8@c-71-205-172-135.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:57:25 I was apparently mistaken 02:58:08 dcooper8 [n=dcooper8@c-71-205-172-135.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:32 hi, has anyone used Nathan Froyd's archive package? 02:59:47 i just need something simple for extracting tar files. 03:01:46 -!- gonzojive [n=red@122.162.232.226] has quit [] 03:02:07 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:02:19 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-23-169.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:19 ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 03:04:23 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:44 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:08:17 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:18 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 03:08:40 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.147.222] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:09:16 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 03:09:47 why is nobody saying anything in here? 03:09:55 cause no one knows 03:10:15 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:10:16 ok sorry, this is my first time in here, 03:10:28 i expected some kind of conversation to be going on with 261 people here... 03:10:39 ah there often is heh 03:10:53 dcooper8: conversation in #lisp has its ups and downs 03:11:06 sometimes it's really vivid and awe-inspiring 03:11:13 at other times, nil. 03:11:18 so nobody has ever extracted a tar file using CL? 03:11:20 but always funny ;) 03:11:34 not me 03:11:43 i can't depend on the OS tar command because it could be running on windows... 03:11:53 cliki tar 03:11:56 but the thing is with tar... its pretty simple 03:12:16 minion: are you asleep? 03:12:17 no 03:12:21 minion: cliki tar 03:12:22 you speak nonsense 03:12:28 minion: tell me about tar 03:12:29 Adlai: please see tar: tar.lisp aspires to become a Common Lisp replacement for the tar program. http://www.cliki.net/tar 03:12:43 tar.lisp is a broken link 03:12:48 and it has been superseded by "archive" 03:12:56 but i'm just having a few issues with "archive" 03:12:56 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:12:58 on Allegro 03:13:12 you got allegro working with cl :D sweet :) 03:13:25 i don't get it. 03:13:40 isnt that the sdl grahics lib? 03:13:43 rodt: you speak nonsense 03:14:02 a few modern case mode issues, which I think i've fixed, 03:14:11 but now some compatibility issues with trivial-gray-streams 03:14:11 minion: tell rodt about Allegro 03:14:12 rodt: please look at Allegro: Allegro is a common alternative name for ACL. http://www.cliki.net/Allegro 03:14:21 ah and that lol 03:14:21 rodt: tell rodt about ACL 03:14:32 *luis* fails 03:14:40 minion tell rodt about ACL 03:14:45 just wondering if anyone has tried this archive thingie, 03:15:00 it looks like the author is in this room, froydnj 03:15:12 i'm ready to pay him $100 to help me fix it 03:15:14 minion: ACL for rodt 03:15:15 rodt: direct your attention towards ACL: ACL, "Allegro Common Lisp", is a commercial Common Lisp implementation by Franz Inc, Berkeley. http://www.cliki.net/ACL 03:15:33 and stop me spending my saturday night debugging stream and octet stuff which really sails over my head 03:15:34 ;) thanks 03:15:52 ooh, heh, Franz Inc has redesigned their site. 03:16:05 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:08 Franz is emphasizing their large-scale database products 03:16:54 i sent them a support question about tar/archive already, but i'm hoping just to get this thing fixed and move on 03:17:37 so what are these 261 people doing? Most of them just stay logged in here all the time even though not really at their computer? 03:18:08 ah most are working but theyre comps are fragmented so they dont know what different bits are doing 03:18:10 dcooper8: people don't always monitor every IRC room their account is on 03:18:10 dcooper8: depends. quite a lot of us are in European timezones, it seems :-) 03:18:33 dcooper8: No. we're sitting silently waiting to pounce. 03:18:41 im just taking a break, come for the comedy ;) 03:18:52 it seems CL has been seeing an upsurge in europe 03:19:03 i guess gigamonkey is Peter S? 03:19:12 dcooper8: yup. 03:19:13 dcooper8: yeah, our local celebrity ;-) 03:21:46 nice book :) 03:22:48 *Adlai* throws a copy of the ANSI spec at all shell scripts 03:23:41 hey Peter, by the way, i saw somewhere that you had done (or were thinking of doing) an extension for asdf, 03:23:45 I drop in now and then and read the room conversations 03:23:47 to be able to concatenate-system 03:24:01 when I'm not spending a lot of time at the computer 03:24:15 i guess i should start with 03:24:32 gigamonkey: i saw somewhere that you had done (or were thinking of doing) an extension for asdf, to be able to concatenate systems? 03:24:45 like you can do with ACL simply by cat'ing fasl files together 03:24:58 to produce a single fasl from an asdf system 03:25:12 then i searched for it and couldn't find it anymore 03:26:05 dcooper8: hmmm, let me see if I can dig that up. 03:26:52 it seems it wouldn't be trivial to do it cross-platform, because each implementation has its own way of concatenating fasls together, 03:27:06 like in LW you have to use their concatenate-system function, i believe 03:27:10 well, on the platforms on which it works it's just 'cat'. 03:27:24 ok so it doesn't do any cross-platform magic 03:29:13 gigamonkey pasted "concat fasls" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85881 03:29:36 Nope. 03:30:22 Is it possible to specialize methods based on an object's metaclass? I haven't been able to find any utilities for examining metaclass information... 03:31:12 dcooper8: it depends on the platform, ECL has a completely different method but it's included in it's build toolkit and ASDF extensions 03:31:18 the metaclass will have to be its own separate argument, girzel .. so no 03:31:44 ( like done in e.g. slot-value-using-class, girzel ) 03:32:04 gigamonkey: on LW that would have to be extended to generate a LispWorks system definition on the fly with the files you need, then use their concatenate-system to build-one-fasl, maybe I will look at making that work, thanks. 03:33:05 -!- ausente is now known as Ron_Hubbard 03:33:23 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 03:33:23 lnostdal: Thanks, I'll look up slot-value-using-class. There seems to be a general lack of documentation regarding metaclass programming. I keep reading references to something called MOB, but can find no basic introduction. 03:33:37 rodt: you say tar is simple, you think I should just hack my own tar file extractor? 03:33:41 but if you're simply looking for how you'd extract the metaclass from an instance of a class, that'd be: (defclass test () ()) ;; 'standard-class' metaclass (class-of (class-of (make-instance 'test))) => # ... and you can dispatch on that ofc. 03:33:48 dcooper8: it would be required on ECL, you can't concatenate dll/so and expect it to work with a simple mmap() :D 03:34:10 dcooper8: yeah i would 03:34:30 girzel, you mean MOP .. and you're looking for a book called AMOP then .. the reference parts of it are here; http://www.lisp.org/mop/index.html .., girzel 03:35:03 rodt: the archive utility from cliki.net is full of :before and :around methods and stream mixins and other things which make me start to glaze over, 03:35:20 plus rampant assumptions that the lisp is running in :case-insensitive-upper mode 03:35:21 ... 03:35:30 same heh 03:35:43 lnostdal: Ah, of course! Two class-ofs would get the metaclass... Makes sense. And yes, I meant MOP, and thanks for the link! 03:35:55 ok, cool, girzel .. :) 03:37:33 hmmm... the code/ directory in ACL has a tar.fasl 03:37:43 maybe they have their own tar thingie built in 03:37:48 but i don't think it's documented 03:37:54 let's try some apropose 03:38:16 util.tar:extract-tar [function] (stream 03:38:17 &key 03:38:17 util.tar::gzip 03:38:17 directory 03:38:17 ...) 03:38:29 so maybe my immediate prob is solved on ACL 03:38:38 lol 03:39:59 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:00 ArtVandalae [n=SuperUnk@220.253-232-10.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 03:41:19 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:41:44 hi, any equivalent of mkdir without using a shell cmd? 03:41:57 (ensure-directories-exist ...) 03:42:24 dcooper8: thanks 03:43:51 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:44:47 -!- jao [n=jao@31.Red-83-33-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:45:38 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:33 franz has no documentation on util.tar:extract-tar, 03:47:40 but they include it in an example at 03:47:43 http://www.franz.com/support/tutorials/rdnzl-tutorial.htm 03:48:01 so do I 03:48:24 1) take the easy way out (and use what i'm paying for), and just use the undocumented Franz thing, or 03:48:42 2) stay up until 3am and work out the kink's of Nathan F's archive thingie? 03:49:15 (1) won't help me on LW or other CL's, but maybe Nathan F's thing works ok on those anyway... 03:49:27 and ACL is my only immediate concern anyway... 03:49:59 3) write your own, be happy ? 03:50:16 4) get a decent computer, be sweet ? 03:50:27 i don't get it 03:50:49 well if you wrote your own, it prolly wouldnt take that long ? 03:51:11 include tar with your deployment; it runs on win32 also .. 03:51:32 lnostdal: i thought of that 03:51:34 logBot9051 [n=logBot@59.92.164.185] has joined #lisp 03:51:45 but i want to be pure CL 03:51:59 3) then ? 03:52:01 win32 isn't pure CL 03:52:08 *shrug* .. your time 03:52:30 it takes time to package a win32 tar as well 03:52:39 tick-tock 03:52:49 ultimately it will be less grief to have it in pure CL 03:53:13 my deployment only depends on two external programs now (and has for 6 years now) and i want to keep it that way 03:53:17 or reduce that number 03:53:20 not increase 03:53:34 4. then ? 03:53:51 i'll use Franz's for now, 03:54:00 then after Monday's release (which only cares about ACL), 03:54:09 i'll try to get Nathan's working on LW and SCL etc, 03:54:20 if that's too hard, 03:54:25 then maybe i will break down and write my own. 03:54:42 i would rather get Nathan's working so it can benefit the community 03:55:11 these core CL libraries have to be rock-solid, 03:55:22 if CL is going to be viable for another 5-10-15 years 03:55:43 lol 03:55:58 i don't care about exotic vertical libraries, but core basic libraries have to be there 03:56:13 but they are non existant ? 03:56:52 they are there, for the most part, 03:57:08 only occasionally i hit something like this, and have to spend time a-library searching 03:57:35 if i can get it from my vendor then i can live with that, 03:57:43 but it's always nice to have open-source alternative as well 03:57:48 for each thing 03:57:50 being used 03:57:54 well sure 03:57:54 outside the ANSI spec 03:58:36 erm so how do you draw a line again ? 03:59:28 rodt: ? are you talking to me? 03:59:45 er yeah lol 04:00:38 "er yeah lol" 04:00:41 how old are you ? 04:00:59 31 04:01:01 and what do you mean by draw a line 04:01:14 i thought you said the core libs were there for the most part ? 04:01:22 just i thought they were non existant 04:01:38 oh you mean how do i draw a line between "core" and "extra" ? 04:01:45 lol 04:01:54 i suppose yeah 04:02:08 thats definitely one correct interpretation :) 04:02:59 it's a good question, i'm really not sure. 04:03:41 its quite easy in practice, you concentrate on teh word "computer", in "computer programming language" 04:04:16 so everything offered by the "computer" should be available in the core language & libraries? 04:04:27 yeah 04:04:31 but not things like e.g. phase of moon calculations 04:04:47 what you mean ? thats an algorithm 04:04:55 all comps have synced time.. yeah 04:04:55 so is sort 04:05:00 is it a lib lol 04:05:39 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-218-122.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:41 well thats a convience library, like tar 04:05:59 which of them you include as core... well lol 04:06:39 i mean it doesnt matter... really 04:09:26 well I like the smallness of CL 04:09:37 its not that small 04:09:43 i just hope things can get a bit more standardized in the "convenience" libraries dept. 04:09:57 have you ever seen how large a Java environment is? 04:10:05 compare that to a CL world of a couple MB 04:10:12 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 04:10:30 CL is tiny compared to java these days 04:10:34 i spose 04:10:52 dcooper8: anything is tiny compared to the "giant billboard by Sun"... 04:12:32 by the way, i'm in the ALU, 04:12:37 we had a discussion the other day 04:12:45 about whether the ALU is for CL or for all Lisps 04:12:53 and supposedly the answer was "all Lisps" 04:13:06 why ? 04:13:06 so my question was "where's the Association for Common Lisp Users" 04:13:13 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-218-122.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:13:17 maybe we need an ACLU 04:13:39 personally, I have a broad long-term interest in "all lisps" 04:13:50 but i have a specialized immediate and at least medium-term interest in CL 04:14:25 so i'm thinking about the idea of an ACLU, 04:14:39 to have a clear association for CL users, under the umbrella of ALU 04:14:45 dcooper8: I thought that the ACLU the minority Lisps too, not just CL. 04:14:50 *supports the 04:14:50 for what purpose tho ? 04:14:52 but of course i have no time to organize such a thing 04:14:55 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:04 *Adlai* botched the joke. forgetaboutit. 04:15:21 lol 04:15:32 yeah well they need "support" 04:15:43 we all stand to lose lots of money if not 04:16:05 rodt: i'm not sure what you are talking about "lol" 04:16:30 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:41 laugh out loud it means 04:17:16 are you laughing at yourself? 04:17:34 no Adlai botched joke 04:17:35 it seems you're trying to make jokes then laugh at your own jokes lol 04:17:35 dcooper8: I hope he was laughing at my joke 04:17:38 hehe 04:17:54 ;) 04:18:43 ACLU is american civil liberties union, 04:18:46 now i get it. 04:18:49 lol. 04:19:00 -!- logBot9051 [n=logBot@59.92.164.185] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:19:02 -!- lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-26-210.dynamic.amis.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:19:10 anyway i think there should be an ACLU separate from ALU 04:19:19 and i'm mentioning it here first 04:19:29 hm 04:19:33 maybe i won't do anything further on it, but you heard it here first ;) 04:19:37 I think that's the least of my concerns. 04:19:38 :P 04:19:45 lol 04:20:02 ALU can go on and promote "Lisp" as a concept, and cross-pollination among lisps, and so on... 04:20:08 dcooper8: stick a profiler on your "Common Lisp's priorities" package. 04:20:15 I think that we CL users should get the ACLU to support us as a minority hacking community 04:20:27 Adlai: for social justice and social change? 04:20:29 s/profiler/portable statistical/ 04:20:34 er, regex fail. 04:20:35 Think of the children. 04:20:39 *Adlai* is rolling in fail today. 04:20:52 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-23-169.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:21:27 no joke about the children, though... many of my friends insist that the first language anybody should learn is... C 04:21:43 thats pretty harsh heh 04:21:59 there are Scheme groups, Clojure groups, but not really CL groups, are there? just ALU which is supposed to be for everybody but focuses on nobody 04:21:59 dubZ [n=Dustin@142-192.207-68.elmore.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:22:00 lol thinking about teach my littlens to code soon heh 04:22:08 i've never understood what the ALU actually "does" 04:22:23 they organize the ILC meetings 04:22:41 i got voted on at the last meeting where I was not even in attendance, 04:22:46 i'm not sure how that happened 04:22:57 lol 04:23:13 in Europe they have the ECLM meetings, 04:23:32 the one I attended in Amsterdam in 2008 was superb 04:23:35 and focused 04:23:37 and practical 04:23:47 the ILC meetings are a mixed bag as far as i'm concerned 04:24:12 that's because you have schemers, CL people, academics, commercial users, and everyone talking past each other 04:25:15 htk_ [n=htk___@95.65.241.57] has joined #lisp 04:25:32 i'd like to see the ECLM model spread worldwide, and focus on CL, not to disparage other Lisps out there, but to support the ongoing CL community, 04:25:33 i dunno man things seem abit dated to me 04:26:02 people are existing in different time warps 04:26:07 and for different reasons 04:26:23 -!- zeroish` [n=zeroish@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:26:25 that would explain it :) 04:26:54 it's easy to say that something "looks dated" 04:27:05 but in the computing world, nothing can ever entirely go away 04:27:22 you think its slower moving cause its maths 04:27:26 but maths has moved fast lol 04:27:41 i'm not sure what that means 04:28:12 theres a lot of math out there 04:28:32 our computing models havent changed much since inception 04:28:35 -!- drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:28:51 math underwent series of revolutionary changes 04:29:08 there's some revolutionary things going on in computing now too, 04:29:14 yep :) 04:29:19 but it doesn't mean we suddenly drop everything we are doing, 04:29:23 and chase the revolution 04:29:38 there is some value in legacy and stability as well 04:29:44 er well lol 04:29:56 in fact it often proves it null 04:30:04 and old systems have to be scrapped then 04:31:36 so what are you saying? 04:31:52 -!- hohum [n=dcorbe@206.71.169.115] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:31:54 theres a lot of inertia in computing ?. 04:34:42 there certainly is. 04:34:52 nothing every completely goes away in computing 04:34:57 ever* 04:35:15 i think some people constantly chase the newest fad or "revolution" 04:35:38 some people are forever stuck and entrenched in whatever "legacy" computing world they got accustomed to, 04:35:59 and the trick is to straddle those categories, 04:36:28 to be able to keep one's feet in what is stable and actually get things done which are practical and will have some longevity, 04:36:30 why ? 04:36:48 but not get entrenched 04:36:54 because generally things get better and fads or parts of em become standardised 04:37:24 but your right none of that matters 04:37:36 because it all boils down to practicalities 04:38:37 people are lazy and generally tend to do whatever requires the least work 04:38:39 -!- dubZ [n=Dustin@142-192.207-68.elmore.res.rr.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:38:45 is this chat room about CL or about Lisp in general? 04:38:53 CL 04:39:03 for scheme there is #scheme .. clojure has #clojure 04:39:04 is it pro-CL or do we have flame wars in here 04:39:13 no flamewars, no 04:39:30 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-15-235.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 04:39:35 are my comments here going on a record somewhere? 04:39:41 (i'm sure they are right) 04:39:49 yes, there are at least two log-bots here 04:41:18 hmmm, 260 people in here and 110 in #clojure 04:42:31 rodt: btw, I can say that of the most that is being used in usual computing, not much has changed in last 20 years :-) 04:42:50 the only changes might be how widespread certain stuff is :D 04:43:02 yeah i know the picture is bleak lol 04:43:55 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:43:59 making a teaching material (high school level) on operating systems left me in despair ;-) 04:44:08 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 04:44:20 i dont envy you there heh i feel sick thinking about it lol 04:50:18 |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E4439B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:08 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.242.63] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:52:33 tbh tho i feel that os/kernel/shellenv/lisp(whatever) its all teh same 04:53:45 just an interface to operate your computer with 04:54:03 all interfaces are the same? 04:54:06 *sigh* 04:54:30 rodt: I don't think that awk and COBOL are the same 04:54:45 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:55:07 they pretty simular 04:55:15 simular enough to have simularities 04:55:52 -!- seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 04:56:04 sticking your toe in, you might not notice much of a difference .. i certainly notice a huge difference working with lisp vs. c 04:56:23 ..at least for somewhat non-trivial stuff 04:56:36 im not saying they are all as nice to use or the same 04:56:47 there differences mean they are all different to use 04:57:06 but essentially its another interface to use your computer for something 04:57:16 " tbh tho i feel that os/kernel/shellenv/lisp(whatever) its all teh same" <- I believe you just did say they're all "teh same" 04:57:47 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-36-221.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:57:54 they should be considered so and flattened 04:57:56 into 1 04:57:58 simple typo, no biggie 04:58:54 lnostdal: when I was writing those materials, I was working on concepts, language/technology agnostic :) 04:58:55 oh, you mean lisp and c being same, Adlai ? 05:00:01 Makoryu [n=vt920@ool-4578a523.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:11 I think that saying that everything is "just another interface to the computer" is like saying that motorcycles, bikes, and sneakers are "just another way to get somewhere" 05:00:17 yes, they are, but you're missing the poit. 05:00:18 *point 05:00:28 well no cause that is the point 05:00:44 in reality the trainers thing doesnt work... in teh virtual world we can do that 05:00:44 a computer is just another interface to atoms .. i don't see where this is going 05:01:04 computers have nothing to do with atoms ? 05:01:28 rodt: yes they do. The computer is just an interface to the patterns of magnetization on your hard disk. 05:01:45 no 05:01:50 or if you're fancy and Web2.0... your webserver's harddisk. 05:01:54 its not at all lol 05:02:12 most people wouldnt know what that was 05:02:19 you're not making any sense 05:02:24 right. It's a reductio ad absurdum. 05:02:36 minion: tell rodt about reductio-ad-absurdum 05:02:36 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``reductio-ad-absurdum''. 05:02:42 rats. 05:03:23 you have docs and files ... not eletronic patterns 05:03:30 even if thats what they are 05:03:40 to you its data, a picture maybe 05:04:03 you have a pocessor and mouse and keyboard and screen 05:04:10 speakers 05:04:16 usb and other streams 05:04:31 thats what you interface with like everyone else 05:04:37 in computing, its the data or result thats important, not what it is stored on, especially for digital data 05:04:55 yeah 05:05:01 ... if you want to get down to really low level you get to manipulation of pure information, which then forms the physical state of the universe and so upwards till you get working cpus :> 05:05:22 no one does tho 05:05:35 all we want is to read our email 05:05:39 or whatever 05:05:43 that information is tricky though cause of the heisenberg principle 05:05:53 its easier to deal with digital info 05:06:24 so basically we have digital data 05:06:37 some devices like button arrays and bit array blitters 05:06:39 in most computing yes, there are still analog computers 05:06:48 its all weve have for like what ? ever 05:06:49 like audio filters etc 05:06:53 sure and sound 05:07:12 but you could really treeat all devs the same 05:07:27 sure youd have standard lib* ones ;) 05:07:30 well analog has the problem of information degradation 05:07:31 like sound... 05:08:05 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E45E87.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:08:16 DeusExPikachu: advanced filters are often digital nowadays, but they are not used for audio :D 05:08:42 p_l, they can be used for audio to, I made a few for digital room correction 05:09:25 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:29 DeusExPikachu: sure, but I'm speaking about stuff that does realtime filtering and operations of radio signals 05:09:36 well i dont think youd include stuff like that in the standard lib until everyone had one 05:09:44 where chip clocked at 100GHz isn't that abnormal :) 05:09:50 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:10:03 heh 05:10:35 p_l, no doubt, there's some crazy tech out there, but its amazing what applying those concepts to audio can do 05:10:50 some company in Israel made a DSP-style optical chip for usage in radio processing 05:11:12 optical chip? never heard of that in practice yet 05:11:33 DeusExPikachu: they made a full integrated optical circuit 05:12:15 just prototype when I read about it, but that's due to not being able to use mass-production facilities 05:12:41 p_l, link me if you can 05:12:49 some hi-speed network equipment also uses combination of optical and electronical systems 05:13:14 I know fiberoptics have been able to transition to mostly optical systems now 05:13:15 DeusExPikachu: unfortunately I don't have the link anymore, I'd have to search from scratch (read about it year or two ago) 05:13:34 only the endpoints are electrical 05:13:56 cause transitioning from one to other increases dollar/mile by a lot 05:14:17 increase in computing power can in short time nullify all multi-billion efforts of USAF on stealth 05:14:19 and the reason why fios is so awesome 05:14:58 p_l, because of the advanced filters? 05:15:16 *p_l* would like service like NTT's FTTH. 100MBit, only upload is capped to few hundred gigabytes a day 05:15:37 DeusExPikachu: because we could track a B-2 through the disturbance in air 05:15:39 wow thats a lot of BW, I don't need that much 05:16:26 p_l, what kind of sensors do you need for that stuff? 05:16:26 at the same time, I heard rumours that Russian engineers are quite far in getting a full active stealth system 05:16:30 lazerbeams? 05:16:35 DeusExPikachu: plain old radar 05:19:01 Hi guys, I'm having some trouble wrapping my head around all these apply's and mapcar's: I have defined a function "dfs", which takes two arguments, a "goal" function (e.g. (lambda (x) (= x 1))) and a list. Now I want to apply my dfs function onto each element in a list. I'm slightly unsure about what the format would be, but I've gotten to this: (apply #'mapcar dfs g MyList). Does this read: apply "mapcar dfs g" onto the list, My 05:19:02 List? 05:20:13 I'm reading up on #' (hash quote, sharp quote?) and trying to get my head around that. Any insight would be appreciated. 05:22:40 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 05:22:42 morning 05:22:45 ArtVandalae: sharpquote is a readmacro similar to normal quote. 05:22:58 #'(any thing) => (function (any thing)) 05:23:08 just as '(any thing) => (quote (any thing)) 05:24:05 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:24:10 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:37 (mapcar (lambda (x) (= x 1)) (list 3 2 1 0)) => (NIL NIL T NIL) ;; sure you're not after this? 05:26:12 oh, nvm .. 05:28:46 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:29:00 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:41 skeptomai [n=cb@c-67-170-103-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:12 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:45:02 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@c-67-170-103-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:56:00 what's the point of (make-array nil)?.... 05:57:19 a one-element box 05:58:25 Krystof: how do you use it? It has no elements... 05:58:40 (make-array nil :initial-element :foo) => #0A:FOO 05:58:49 aha 05:59:23 (aref #0A:quack) => :QUACK 05:59:28 (setf (aref array) 'whatever) 05:59:36 oh strange 06:00:07 Krystof: the puzzling thing is that (on CCL at least) a zero-dimensional array is four times the size of a one-element vector. 06:00:28 it's pretty damn huge for a little box... 06:03:04 sayyestolife [n=jot_n@79.136.60.147] has joined #lisp 06:06:19 mrSpec [n=Spec@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 06:07:11 Adlai: that doesn't puzzle me too much; vectors are used a lot, so the implementation will optimize them for space; zero-dimensional arrays aren't used a lot, so there's no sense in using up a specialized representation for them 06:10:01 hello 06:11:07 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@95.65.241.57] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:12:40 -!- Nshag [i=user@193.248.206.147] has quit ["Quitte"] 06:14:32 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:14:41 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:18:59 fisxoj_ [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:40 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:27:21 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:06 -!- rodt [n=rodney@80-45-96-105.static.dsl.as9105.com] has quit ["erm ... is that all there is ?"] 06:31:04 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 06:31:04 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:31:06 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:31:38 loxs [n=loxs@78.90.124.182] has joined #lisp 06:33:52 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 06:34:23 is it possible to define a class only within the context of a function? 06:35:19 ie not have the class definition "leak" outside the scope of a function? 06:35:42 let? 06:36:22 no. once the function is called, the class becomes globally visible. 06:37:42 Moe111 pasted "function scope class def" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85885 06:37:49 Moe111: I think you could make an instance of standard-class 06:38:41 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:39:15 the other thing that happens is that the function won't compile because evidently the accessor methods don't exist at that point (which makes sense) 06:39:38 I'm just toying with the idea though. so I don't know if it's even remotely imaginable to do something like this 06:41:04 Moe111: yes. You can. 06:41:13 in fact, AMOP has an example of how to do this. 06:41:28 I really should get that book. 06:41:36 benny` [n=benny@i577A17AB.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:41:37 it's a great book 06:41:39 sykopomp: what's the gist of it? 06:41:54 Moe111: making an instance of standard-class, like adlai said. 06:42:01 sykopomp: (not the book) the trick to get it scoped inside a function 06:42:14 I don't get it though. then what? 06:42:25 then what? 06:42:35 you pass that object to make-instance to create instances of that class. 06:42:49 (make-instance (make-instance 'standard-class ...) ...) 06:42:57 hmm... I see. 06:43:15 remember that (make-instance (find-class 'foo)) works 06:43:25 so you just make your own instance of the class :) 06:43:44 defining methods that specialize on that class is a completely different matter, though. 06:43:53 can this way of doing it also make the accessors happen? Or: can I implement methods inside a function? 06:44:00 ahh 06:44:00 =) 06:44:07 you can use slot-value 06:44:19 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1BD5.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:44:40 or I could just use some flet trickery and pretend that it's a method 06:44:41 hmmm 06:44:43 I'm liking this 06:45:25 hmmm... actually, that flet doesn't work 06:45:27 it sounds like you're trying to do very ugly things. 06:45:30 http://paste.lisp.org/display/77667#1 .. i found an old paste wrt. this, Moe111 06:45:38 -!- fisxoj_ [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:45:43 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:46:12 Adlai pasted "simple example for Moe111" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85886 06:46:38 lnostdal: afaik, creating readers/writers will prevent the class from being garbage-collected. 06:46:55 actually, I'm not sure, but you probably prevent that by the very act of creating a class... 06:47:17 if you've got accessors defined, they reference the class 06:47:27 yes, I know that much 06:47:38 not sure if just putting the class into the hierarchy does that, too, though. 06:47:46 Adlai: The solution here is obvious, amirite? ;D 06:47:48 ;D 06:47:59 yeah, got to add some fmakunmound calls or remove-method calls then .. 06:48:08 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:48:37 lnostdal: with-programmatic-class 06:48:40 oh the hoops we jump through to write a nice macro =) 06:48:55 hmm, sounds like you could write an almost-trivial with-class macro 06:49:05 yeah, something like that, sykopomp :) 06:49:21 Adlai: (spawn) *cough cough* 06:49:23 the macro is a continuation of a discussion I was having yesterday 06:49:33 it would be with-sql-query macro 06:49:42 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@88.208.105.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:49:56 sykopomp: #'parse-lambda-list 06:49:57 (using clsql) and you could call the columns by name instead of ordinal 06:50:12 Adlai: ugh. How about -you- do it? :D 06:50:14 anyways. I must let it ferment some more. 06:51:10 the smell of rotten fruit eventually turns to the smell of alcohol, after all. 06:51:19 lol 06:52:30 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:52:41 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 06:53:14 gonzojive [n=red@122.162.29.22] has joined #lisp 06:53:42 gnight all 06:53:45 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 06:57:15 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:01:26 plage [n=user@90-227-107-28-no34.business.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:01:31 Good morning. 07:01:32 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:06:33 morning 07:08:09 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:08:20 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:14:10 lispm [n=joswig@e177155209.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:14:14 -!- gonzojive [n=red@122.162.29.22] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:14:49 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-96-254.w86-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:21:52 gonzojive [n=red@122.163.205.241] has joined #lisp 07:27:15 good morning 07:32:06 Grey_Fox [n=chatzill@ppp118-208-141-225.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:33:03 mornin' all :) 07:38:59 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-191-75.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:39:22 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-96-254.w86-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:41:17 do any lisps support user-defined sequence classes? 07:41:46 gonzojive: yes, but if I said which, I'd be tarred, feathered, and banned from #lisp. 07:41:51 aka: Clojure 07:42:33 *moocow* starts warming up the bucket'o'tar 07:43:20 doesn't sbcl already do that?.... 07:44:37 what's user-defined sequence classes anyway? 07:45:14 having a generic protocol for defining your own sequences and having lisp's sequence protocol handle them properly. 07:45:38 k, you mean having, say, cl:length work on it? 07:45:43 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.steel-bank.devel/8132 07:45:47 "Real programmers do list processing in FORTRAN." 07:46:13 extensible sequences have been obsolete since 1956! 07:46:40 there is some more detail in http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/papers/ilc2007/sequences-20070301.pdf 07:47:07 these are actually available in sbcl already, right? 07:48:33 there is a SEQUENCE package in sbcl 07:49:20 mh .. it is nice to have almost 0 indirection at times, Adlai .. especially since types aren't always known at compile time and one'd have to do dispatching at run-time .. 07:49:40 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-151-85.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 07:49:47 *Adlai* does naught but jest. 07:54:51 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-147-25.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:56:55 -!- plage [n=user@90-227-107-28-no34.business.telia.com] has left #lisp 07:57:04 thanks all for the very informative responses 08:03:14 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:04:39 Anyone who's used Hunchentoot in the wild - what kind of connection/session count has it seen in production? 08:06:50 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 08:07:41 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 08:08:51 Handcrafted [n=henrik@0x573bbf5a.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.ronqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:09:29 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-91661.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 08:23:46 -!- adhoc_ is now known as adhoc 08:30:51 it does not handle many concurrent downloaders, Modius .. there'll be one thread pr. client downloading something, so a couple of hundred max 08:31:17 it's a good idea to place HT behind a front-end like lighttpd og nginx for this reason 08:33:07 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 08:33:10 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:33:46 wrt. session count; i don't know .. probably a lot 08:34:46 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:35:01 BrianRice [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:05 (my own benchmarks this) 08:46:29 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:58 wedgeV [n=wedge@cpe90-146-32-187.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 08:55:04 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cpe90-146-32-187.liwest.at] has quit [Client Quit] 08:55:26 wedgeV [n=wedge@cpe90-146-32-187.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 08:55:34 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:55:44 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cpe90-146-32-187.liwest.at] has quit [Client Quit] 08:56:45 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:58:42 is there a better alternative to using (map-into some-seq #'identity fill-with-this-one)? 08:59:20 clhs replace 08:59:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_replac.htm 09:00:18 aha. Thanks :) 09:01:50 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 09:02:02 logBot7694 [n=logBot@59.92.151.148] has joined #lisp 09:02:51 -!- logBot7694 [n=logBot@59.92.151.148] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:03:21 logBot5676 [n=logBot@59.92.151.148] has joined #lisp 09:04:17 -!- seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:06:21 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 09:10:54 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:11:19 -!- moocow [n=new@64.151.208.1] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:12:29 timor [n=martin@p54B67E70.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:41 -!- timor [n=martin@p54B67E70.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 09:18:17 -!- logBot5676 [n=logBot@59.92.151.148] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:18:40 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 09:19:26 -!- alexbobp_ is now known as alexbobp 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Guest64626 09:44:15 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:44:15 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 09:44:27 hello 09:44:33 -!- Guest64626 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 09:56:55 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:00:07 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:01:14 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:01 woodz [n=woodz@host217-42-28-83.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:05:17 -!- jauaor [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [] 10:06:19 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 10:06:39 AgentX [n=x@118.95.41.125] has joined #lisp 10:07:33 rdd [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:09:19 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:11:16 benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-124-177-91-65.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:13:25 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6F801.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:15:00 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 10:15:10 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:15:22 danlei [n=user@pD9E2D466.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:18:58 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 10:19:14 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:19:22 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.138.160] has joined #lisp 10:23:34 -!- gonzojive [n=red@122.163.205.241] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:27:28 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 10:28:25 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:30:51 *Adlai* found an error in the hyperspec 10:31:06 clhs with-accessors 10:31:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_acce.htm 10:31:29 At the very bottom, "where Qi is (variable-namei () (accessor-namei in))" is incorrect. 10:32:24 hi guys. i'm doing the online practical common lisp book, putting time aside to actually finish that off 10:32:40 Hurrah. 10:32:48 i'm running into a simple problem that i want to understand before i move on from chapter 3 ... http://pastebin.ca/1540094 10:33:22 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229064236.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:33:22 See defvar 10:33:39 Oops. 10:34:49 Compiling that file does not produce that warning for me. 10:35:03 How are you compiling it? 10:35:05 moocow: are you using "C-c C-k" or "C-c C-c" to compile? 10:35:16 C-c C-c <-- that 10:35:21 is that wrong? 10:35:31 ok, that only compiles the form around your cursor. 10:35:39 oh! 10:35:50 use that to recompile individual forms when you're editing a larger file 10:36:01 aaaaaaaaaand we have a winner 10:36:16 cool, glad it works now :) 10:36:17 my thank you kind lispers 10:36:48 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.75.138] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:37:32 jao [n=jao@31.Red-83-33-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:41 and i actually know what you mean by form, that was explained by that tutorial on writing a game in lisp 10:38:12 ah yes, "Casting SPELs in Lisp"? 10:38:27 yup 10:38:39 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [No route to host] 10:38:43 Anyone using portable-clx or some other CLX that hassupport for the XTest extension? 10:38:49 Xof perhaps? 10:40:45 _stern_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E43D10.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:55 gonzojive [n=red@122.161.6.100] has joined #lisp 10:43:27 -!- benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-124-177-91-65.qld.bigpond.net.au] has left #lisp 10:47:25 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@84.42.251.245] has joined #lisp 10:55:17 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:12 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E4439B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 11:03:09 kpreid 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to host)] 12:31:17 -!- ShadowChild [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Client Quit] 12:31:49 ShadowChild [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 12:33:32 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-151-196-43-142.balt.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:37 -!- ShadowChild is now known as lukjad007 12:35:02 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-77-223.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:36:36 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 12:37:48 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-35-250-151.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:38:09 hello 12:38:10 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdsleg103.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:39:12 is there any particular reason why symbol names like _myvar are not used 12:39:14 ? 12:39:14 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 12:40:00 kiuma: Because the particular reasons that those names are used in other languages don't exist in CL. 12:40:18 nothing hinders you from using them 12:42:09 kiuma: what should _foo indicate? 12:42:34 lispm, I'd like to use underscore because I'm mapping dojotookit with my framework, and I want a clos class named dijit._widget for example, just to have a one-to-one naming relationship 12:42:47 gonzojive_ [n=red@122.163.91.175] has joined #lisp 12:43:07 kiuma: CL has different conventions, that's all. The closest equivalent to _foo in CL might be %foo, which is used in some codebases for internal variables/functions. 12:44:18 Adlai, so you'd suggest to map javascript class dijit._Widget to symbol dijit.%widget ? 12:45:30 Yeah. 12:45:43 http://www.cliki.net/Naming%20conventions 12:46:31 tic, thanks 12:46:32 kiuma: I'm not too familiar with JS or dojotoolkit, but it sounds to me as though you might want to put this in a package, so you'd have a class dijit:widget 12:46:40 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:47:04 in first approximation a class name like dijit._Widget is fine 12:47:24 Adlai, unfortunately it's not a so obvious choice 12:47:28 but then as said above, a package mit be useful 12:47:41 might 12:48:03 Adlai, in the sense that packaging are not so easy to map one-to-one 12:48:43 why is there an underscore before Widget? 12:49:32 lisp it is private for dojo too 12:50:01 Connochaetes [i=1000@93-139-26-18.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 12:50:05 so that would map to an unexported symbol in a package DIJIT ? 12:50:19 DIJIT::WIDGET 12:50:24 http://api.dojotoolkit.org/jsdoc/1.3/dijit._Widget 12:50:28 fundamental [n=fundamen@li48-162.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 12:50:46 lispm there is dijit.Widget too 12:51:39 -!- gonzojive [n=red@122.163.91.192] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:51:52 well not really for widget, but it's true for Button 12:52:01 -!- fundamental [n=fundamen@li48-162.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 12:55:40 then in Lisp it would be DIJIT::%BUTTON 12:56:21 by convention only 12:56:52 if these classes are never exported and only used inside a package , you might want another convention 12:56:59 like _foo 12:58:08 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@122.163.91.175] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:58:59 francogrex [n=franco@91.176.129.45] has joined #lisp 13:00:14 but for example in LispWorks it is never used 13:00:54 Hi, I was discussing with a collegue the other day, trying to convince him of the virtues of common lisp... and he asked me: "tell at least the one [special] thing that one can do in common lisp that is impossoble to do in any other language out there". 13:01:54 I started talking about lists and macros etc, but he was not convinced (he says some others also use lists and macros etc)... 13:01:58 Suttonian [n=Suttonia@5ad1e634.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 13:02:08 can you tell me what you think would be a good answer? 13:02:19 -!- Suttonian [n=Suttonia@5ad1e634.bb.sky.com] has left #lisp 13:02:50 francogrex: make clear the distinction between Ruby's [1, 2, 3] and Lisp's (1 2 3) 13:03:06 or as I could write it, (1 . (2 . (3 . NIL))) 13:03:16 if you're confused... 13:03:17 interactive compile & disassemble of individual functions? 13:03:21 claar: draw (1 2 3) 13:03:43 hmm claar seems to be asleep :( 13:03:43 Adlai: you think this is the extraordinary feature that Cl has that no other language has, if so it's pretty weak 13:03:51 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-134-120.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:04:20 francogrex: what is the one feature of the audi that the peugeot does not have? 13:04:20 Xach: yes I could have used that... didn't think of it 13:04:21 francogrex: no, but it's one of the key things behind lists and macros 13:04:58 looking at individual features makes little sense 13:05:04 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 13:05:12 lispm: none that i know; you wouldn't know either but a machanical engineer expert would know 13:05:22 lispm: duh. the name & logo! 13:05:36 Lisp is designed to have a combination of some features so that they play well together 13:05:53 to support symbolic computation with recursive functions 13:06:02 Xach: the logo! 13:06:24 and the social prestige of the driver 13:08:48 I also don't buy my stereo system based on the single feature, but how balanced it sounds together with my Canton loadspeakers 13:09:22 loudspeakers? 13:09:25 haha 13:09:32 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:09:36 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-212.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:10:42 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B5444.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:17 lispm: I understand, but if you're to be a salesman you need a special feature would surpass all the moderate "yes all together makes it good" 13:11:36 zeroish` [n=zeroish@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:38 audi salesmen sell emotion 13:12:02 'well engineered', 'german precision engineering' 13:12:24 'vorsprung durch technik' 13:12:29 people are better convinced with something like: what is the one thing that made Dirk Diggler a special star? than ... errr yes all together with all his acting and other simple stuff he's alright... err i guess 13:12:39 bakkdoor_ [n=bakkdoor@xdslco060.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:12:52 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:12:55 lispm, mm... ok it seems I have to do a bit of rework in naming 13:13:11 just leave the _ 13:13:27 ah ok 13:13:30 If looked through LispWorks and Genera - no prefixes 13:13:46 Clozure CL has +foo for some Cocoa classes 13:13:53 I don't have LW 13:14:09 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 13:14:30 just an info, no need to use it - I wanted to see if the is some naming practice in actual code 13:14:46 -!- bakkdoor_ [n=bakkdoor@xdslco060.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:14:48 francogrex, dirk diggler, hmm? 13:14:51 so it could be right to have DJ::DIJIT.FORM._BUTTON isn't it ? 13:15:26 is *everything* going to start with DIJIT.? 13:15:31 then you should omit that part 13:15:37 if you don't want or can't map it to some other naming convention then leave it that way 13:15:49 gonzojive [n=red@122.163.12.148] has joined #lisp 13:16:13 kpreid, well dere is also DOJO and DOJOX 13:16:18 Dirk Diggler? 13:16:19 oh okay. 13:16:34 plus the ones defined by the user 13:16:57 user-defined items should not go in your package 13:17:02 there are lots of 'dirk digglers' I think 13:17:16 it might be the right thing to define a different cl package for each prefix 13:17:30 (automatedly, of course) 13:19:41 http://wiki.gungfu.de/uploads/Main/firstlispchurch.jpg 13:20:56 worshipped today? 13:21:04 lispm: if that reference is as obscure as I think it is... 13:21:09 *Adlai* shakes his head. 13:21:52 trinity Lisp: functions, macros and special forms 13:21:56 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:34 Church = Alonzo Church? 13:22:37 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B5444.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:23:08 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-55-207-173.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:14 Ogedei [n=user@e178228116.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:24:06 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-105-177.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:22 Quote from Peter Norvig: 13:24:24 That means that some Java programmer was spending 13 lines and 84 minutes to provide the functionality of each line of my Lisp program. 13:24:37 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B5444.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:58 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-147.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 13:25:25 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-77-223.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:27:13 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-34.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 13:34:12 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:34:37 lispm: interestingly, none of the Java or C/C++ programmers in those studies used their implementation's hash tables; they all implemented their own data structures 13:35:00 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:24 what do you think about clojure ? 13:37:27 lispm: diggler was a legend because of his special feature; there aren't a lot of him around 13:38:12 I thought there is an entire industry around this 13:38:34 kiuma: i haven't tried it much, but if it promotes lisp family of languages, it's great in my book. 13:40:16 I've read the book during vacations, it has some very nice features, but I miss something from CL. 13:40:37 Adlai: what study? Do you have an URL? 13:41:16 pjb: just a sec... 13:41:32 Oh please, oh please, oh please! 13:41:36 http://wwwipd.ira.uka.de/~prechelt/Biblio/jccpprtTR.pdf 13:41:41 Thanks! 13:41:49 WarWeasle [n=brad@98.220.168.14] has joined #lisp 13:42:05 kiuma: how do you compare it to Scheme, if you use Scheme at all? 13:42:30 Hello, is there a portable way to run command line commands in unix? If not how in sbcl? 13:45:26 WarWeasle: #'sb-ext:run-program 13:45:46 Connochaetes, no I used Scheme only when I was at university, and never used it again 13:45:49 Adlai: So implementation dependant? THanks though. 13:46:53 WarWeasle: yes. CL was standardized back before "Unix won", so many things that are obviously "standard" nowadays aren't in the spec. 13:47:25 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 13:47:26 Wow, Before Unix..... 13:47:35 I don't hear that often. 13:47:57 WarWeasle: not before Unix, but rather, before Unix dominated the field as it does today 13:48:18 if you forget about Windows it is true 13:48:55 especially if you extend Unix to mean Unix-like. 13:49:03 or Posix-compliant. 13:49:12 Adlai: Still, that's impressive. I keep forgetting lisp was first. 13:49:39 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:49:41 Common Lisp was designed to be portable and makes no commitment to any architecture or OS 13:50:10 WarWeasle: yes, LISP dates back to 1958, and CL is based on a few dialects popular in the early 80s 13:50:44 CL started somewhen in 1981/1982 13:50:53 a good year, indeed. :-) 13:50:58 I was 6 13:51:01 ha 13:51:04 6? 13:51:05 I should have learned it then. 13:51:23 -!- milanj- [n=milan@77.46.249.80] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:51:37 when I was born in 64 everything was already invented 13:51:47 Lisp, Smalltalk 80 13:51:58 when I went to school 13:52:00 I thought the Smalltalk number was the year? 13:52:08 lispm: lol 13:52:24 I meant Lisp in 58, and Smalltalk when I went to university 13:52:38 I started Computer Science and Smalltalk 80 appeared 13:52:43 that was so frustrating 13:52:43 Ok, when I run (run-program "ls" '()) I get nothing... 13:52:48 tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 13:53:21 lispm: What's sad is I'm just learning lisp. I should have been told. 13:53:58 -!- francogrex [n=franco@91.176.129.45] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:55:02 it is never too late 13:56:35 lispm: I love it so far. I just wish I could (and I am prepared to take abuse) more c-like. As in the stdc library and string commands and such. 13:56:57 WarWeasle: you could what c-like? :) 13:56:58 s/wish I could/wish it were/; 13:56:58 (run-program "/bin/ls" '() :output t) 13:57:02 works for me 13:58:18 lispm: (run-program: It runs but I just get a # 13:58:35 see the :output t 13:58:44 WarWeasle, it's not in the slime repl 13:58:48 you need to tell about the output stream 13:59:19 check the emacs buffer *inferior-lisp* 13:59:20 AHHHHH.... I just set :output *standard-output* 13:59:21 hmm, it looks like Google Groups has removed some spam from comp.lang.lisp 14:00:02 lispm: Who is *inferior-lisp* and why is he stealing my output! :) 14:00:19 kill him 14:00:54 me ? 14:01:03 do you want to kill me ? 14:01:19 :D 14:01:22 :D 14:01:33 Adlai: lispm: too bad this jccpprtTR.pdf didn't include a few lisp implementations. This kind of studies should be done periodically and on more statistically significant populations... 14:01:40 kiuma: As cool as it would be, you are not a lisp process... 14:01:55 lol 14:02:20 I should ask this: Is there a standard library that makes the lisp names more c-like? 14:02:24 it really depends on whether God really hacked in Perl :P 14:02:39 what do you mean more c-like? 14:02:46 Connochaetes: If he did, it's because he didn't understand lisp yet. 14:02:52 LOL 14:03:03 WarWeasle: do you mean - make-hash to make_hash? 14:03:05 I mean like the stdc library names, strcat, etc... 14:03:48 well, you could write it yourself, but really, do you think that's the right use of your time? 14:03:51 WarWeasle, there is a porting library, I've used in my project, but I don't remember the name 14:04:06 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-158.netcologne.de] has quit [No route to host] 14:04:08 let me hack my code :) 14:04:22 hack it to bits :) 14:05:00 ok its name is osicat 14:05:04 -!- vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@80.70.7.40] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 14:05:15 http://common-lisp.net/project/osicat/ 14:05:21 It's just a renaming thing. I know I can change, but it is just training wheels when I can't find something. 14:05:27 pjb: there's a study done of Lisp programmers, with the same assignment 14:05:56 http://www.flownet.com/gat/papers/lisp-java.pdf 14:05:58 WarWeasle, aven if no strcat 14:06:25 vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 14:06:48 Adlai: ah great! Thank you. 14:07:18 -!- msingh`` [n=user@203.171.123.8.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:07:29 I know it's just clown-shoes but sometimes what you are used to helps... 14:08:10 I just have trouble finding the right command I guess. That will change with experience. 14:08:30 but java is not just a language, it's a world 14:08:32 what book are you using? 14:08:51 Connochaetes: Me? Practical Common Lisp 14:09:14 Wow, Java sucks. 14:09:26 the jvm isn't that bad, is it? 14:09:27 PCL one of the best manual I've read. Despite the language, just speaking about manual 14:09:36 fe[nl]ix: Thanks for the FSBV patch, I've applied it. I'm trying to do the same thing with GSLL. This has multiple grovel files; do I need to set cc-flags in each one, or just once in the first one? 14:09:37 I also recommend Common Lisp the Language by Guy Steele, it's free and very comprehensive. 14:09:51 LiamH: in each one 14:10:05 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Success] 14:10:09 ahhh, fe[nl]ix , how are you ? 14:10:32 bored 14:11:00 no vacations ? 14:11:48 I hope it doesn't sound like I'm whining. Lisp is full of ideas and new things to learn. Trying to make it all work is *hard* sometimes. 14:12:14 kiuma: no 14:12:28 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 14:12:36 too bad, worse then me who had only 10 days 14:13:13 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:16 fe[nl]ix: OK, thanks. 14:13:43 Connochaetes: Thanks for the book! 14:13:56 I don't rememeber and haven't found anyting on common-lisp.net 14:14:36 to migrate my project from svn to git do I have to ask something to the admin, or there is some kind of automatism ? 14:15:24 my favorite language comparison is this : http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~apt/cs457_2005/hudak-jones.pdf 14:15:28 take care, the lot of you. 14:15:31 -!- Connochaetes [i=1000@93-139-26-18.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:15:33 kiuma: you have to do it yourself 14:15:33 I mention this once a while 14:16:10 the Haskell guys wrote about it, they try to do hard not to mention the obvious Lisp win 14:16:29 fe[nl]ix, I don't think it is sufficient to copy my git repo via ssh, is there any how to around ? 14:16:47 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:17:23 lispm: The only reason I don't use haskell is because "I can't learn it!!!". 14:18:02 kiuma: there's an official git->SVN importer. use it locally to convert your svn repo to git, then push the git repo to c-l.net 14:18:29 lispm: What the hell is Relational Lisp? 14:18:46 Never mind, they give it a one-line description 14:19:00 ap5 14:19:02 http://ap5.com/ 14:19:16 http://oceanpark.com/ap5.html 14:19:48 Lisp with relations, rules and transactions 14:20:02 fe[nl]ix, but on the server it will still be svn 14:20:02 an extension to Common Lisp 14:20:06 Development time = 3 hours with 4 hours of listening in a meeting... 14:20:15 carrl_ [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has joined #lisp 14:20:16 I think the lisp guy was slacking. 14:20:27 he basically wrote down what he heard and it ran 14:20:49 -!- carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:21:31 lispm: that report was written 15 years ago 14:21:43 I know, it is still funny 14:21:48 Navel Surface Warfare Center?????!!!! 14:22:46 -!- ArtVandalae [n=SuperUnk@220.253-232-10.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:32:23 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslco060.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:38:38 macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:46:30 -!- a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has left #lisp 14:47:23 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:50:35 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:50 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6F801.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 15:03:58 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:05:20 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@ool-4578a523.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:07:20 -!- loxs [n=loxs@78.90.124.182] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:09:29 fgtech [n=federico@host94-170-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:15:51 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:23:42 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 15:24:01 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 15:28:24 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 15:54:16 guille_ [n=user@193.Red-81-37-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:19 hi 15:55:12 which minimal web library do you recommend? (and not continuation-oriented) 15:55:44 ht is rather small, isn't it? 15:56:46 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:14 bigb [n=bigb@r190-64-61-195.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:57:17 hm... yes, actually my perversed mind was thinking in some framework with a picture of a koala or something, but i don't need that 15:58:01 what do you mean by a 'web' library? 15:58:42 the principal frameworks are weblocks and ucw 15:58:48 both use continuations. 15:58:51 the bare that provides you with route dispatching 15:59:02 there are libraries to do javascript in lisp and to generate html 16:00:41 symbolicweb looked promising, but I think it's in the garage getting redesigned. 16:03:08 i'm not aware of any minimalist dispatching framework. you might roll up something yourself using the functionality in hunchentoot. 16:08:19 *splittist* reads the language comparison referenced by lispm, laughs - 3 hours. Heh. 16:12:09 elliotstern [n=chatzill@pool-96-225-17-231.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:03 Figure 3 is funny 16:18:26 woodz [n=woodz@host217-42-28-83.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:18:54 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-75.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:21:28 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:33 Can a class named be gensym'd? 16:22:23 Moe111: you can have classes without names even. 16:23:33 hmm. ok. must be my syntax. 16:23:36 I'll be back 16:26:32 interesting. Can anyone explain to me why these two statements would behave differently: 16:26:41 (defclass (gensym) gives an error 16:26:52 Moe111: there's no statement in lisp. 16:26:54 `(defclass ,gen-symed-sym doesn't 16:27:15 defclass expects a symbol as class name, not a list. (gensym) is a list. 16:27:27 clhs defclass 16:27:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm 16:27:32 ==> Class-name---a non-nil symbol. 16:27:34 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:27:43 how come (gensym) isn't read and expanded? 16:28:18 Moe111: because the first word of the spec page for defclass is "Macro", and a macro gets to decide what it evaluates and what it doesn't. 16:28:21 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:28:51 pjb: I see. 16:29:12 pjb: so the macro has control over whether or not symbols are evaluated 16:29:18 even symbols in the parameter list? 16:30:00 Yes. Anything in the macro form. 16:30:14 interesting. 16:30:41 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@98.220.168.14] has left #lisp 16:30:48 (defmacro example (&rest arguments) `(print ',arguments)) (example (+ 2 3) (gensym)) 16:31:24 (defmacro example2 (&rest arguments) `(print (list ,@arguments))) (example2 (+ 2 3) (gensym)) 16:31:37 pjb: yes, I just did something very similar. 16:31:49 this is very intersting. I did not know 16:31:59 (defmacro test (name) (format t "~a~%" name)) 16:32:08 (test (gensym)) => (gensym) 16:32:22 Notice that your test macro evaluates the format form at macroexpansion time. 16:32:23 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 16:32:33 yes. 16:33:13 The result of format is NIL since it's given T; so (test (gensym)) cannot return a list other than NIL. 16:33:49 by => I meant "it prints out "(gensym)" on evaluation of the form" 16:34:05 No, that's not on evaluation of the form, it's on macro expansion. 16:34:19 Try: (compile nil '(lambda () (test (gensym)))) 16:34:31 Try: (defvar *f* (compile nil '(lambda () (test (gensym))))) ; then try: (funcall *f*) 16:35:27 yes, my terminology is sloppy, but I understand the point. 16:35:55 by evaluation of the form, I was talking about typing in "(test (gensym))" in the REPL and hitting return 16:36:02 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:36:07 I understand that it's doing a macroexpansion when that happens. 16:37:11 At the REPL, everything occurs at once. Read, Evaluation (= compilation and execution) and Printing. 16:37:19 (of the results). 16:37:33 aye 16:38:09 I get a printed statment "(gensym)" which occurs at macroexpansion, and then I get a NIL return value which is the expansion of the macro being evaluated 16:38:19 -!- benny` is now known as benny 16:38:23 Yes. 16:38:31 I love it =) 16:38:54 Notice also that compilers may expand the macros several times. 16:38:54 I think LIsp is one of the only two languages that have made me giddy 16:39:01 several times? 16:39:12 So it's better to avoid macroexpansion time side effects in macros. 16:40:09 as in you mean they'll do it over and over out of lack of optimization? 16:41:01 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-34.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:41:06 They may do so for whatever reasons, such as first checking the program for errors (therefore taking care of noting source forms); and then again for code generation, or whatever intermediary phases that would benefit from another macroexpansion from source. 16:41:17 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-19-153.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:42:06 alright. Nice talking to you pjb. I gotta get back to my sunday chores. 16:42:10 thanks 16:42:33 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 16:42:36 -!- _stern_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E43D10.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 16:44:13 htk_ [n=htk___@95.65.241.57] has joined #lisp 16:44:13 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Operation timed out] 16:44:40 -!- woodz [n=woodz@host217-42-28-83.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 16:51:03 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-31.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 16:56:33 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:57:18 lujz [n=lujz@cpe-92-37-26-210.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:44 how do you reload code hunchentoot? 17:00:13 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AFF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:42 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:01:21 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-15-235.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:04:48 woodz [n=woodz@host217-42-28-83.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:05:27 -!- gonzojive [n=red@122.163.12.148] has quit [] 17:11:30 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host94-170-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:13:49 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["Sunday Night!!!"] 17:17:46 -!- vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:19:34 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 17:20:47 guille_: can you be more specific? 17:21:33 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-23-169.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:50 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@95.65.241.57] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:25:03 -!- est [n=jthing@212.251.244.165] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:25:36 est [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:27:32 -!- Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 17:28:30 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@pool-96-225-17-231.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:28:46 -!- woodz [n=woodz@host217-42-28-83.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 17:33:24 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:34:48 -!- TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:34:53 TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has joined #lisp 17:35:44 -!- TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:38:44 cadabra [n=cadabra@adsl-69-107-114-172.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:13 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:35 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 17:48:02 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-23-169.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:48:16 gonzojive [n=red@122.163.12.148] has joined #lisp 17:49:03 jauaor [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 17:49:32 -!- AgentX [n=x@118.95.41.125] has left #lisp 17:50:43 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 17:53:04 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:53:27 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-35-250-151.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:54:12 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:15 -!- mgr_ is now known as mgr 18:01:20 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B5444.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:03:34 fgtech [n=federico@host94-170-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:05:34 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:07:10 amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 18:09:00 -!- HG`` [n=HG@xdslek254.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:10:00 what do you use for gui development? 18:10:22 clx ? 18:11:32 if you gonna program for X 18:12:04 if you gonna program a gui for say kde you'll have to use the ffi 18:12:33 I like cells-gtk, but haven't done anything big with it 18:12:34 amaron: there are two recent open source libraries: common qt and cl-gtk2. 18:13:14 I'm targeting gtk, so I see there is cells-gtk, lambda-gtk, cl-gtk2... 18:13:36 I would also like to use glade if it's possible 18:14:35 amaron: and those are not the only ones, heh. 18:14:36 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 18:14:47 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 18:14:56 luis, what do you use? 18:15:31 amaron: I'm afraid I don't use any of those. 18:15:32 what's nice about cells-gtk: you don't have to use callbacks and stuff, just give a rule that says what you want something to be 18:16:24 danlei, yes, it's cool, I've red about cells in general, not used it yet... 18:16:57 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 18:17:08 if you want to give it a shot, look for ramarrens repos on github, they worked for me out of the box 18:17:13 amaron: but if I wanted to write a GTK+ app today, I'd try clgtk2. 18:18:42 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [Client Quit] 18:20:02 jangho [n=xrath@217.39.1.25] has joined #lisp 18:20:30 luis, I see that cl-gtk2 is newer one, but I'll give to both of them (cells-gtk2 and clgtk2) a test 18:20:45 borism [n=boris@195-50-197-250-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 18:20:51 amaron: let us know which you you liked best. Blog about it. :) 18:21:06 danlei, can you use glade with cells-gtk? 18:21:35 amaron: didn't try it, but you could ask on the mailing list. (it's cells-gtk3 btw) 18:21:55 francogrex [n=franco@91.176.129.45] has joined #lisp 18:21:56 I have some projects in gtk using glade in python and haskell, I hope I could use same interface build with glade 18:21:57 defsetf... what's a simple example for it's use (please don't point me to the specs, I always go there before)? 18:22:04 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:22:20 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 18:23:31 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 18:26:44 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:01 -!- xrath [n=xrath@217.39.1.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:34:36 francogrex: the examples in the spec are quite simple. Perhaps you can tell us what you don't understand in them? 18:35:25 francogrex: well, at least the first example is. 18:35:31 -!- gonzojive [n=red@122.163.12.148] has quit [] 18:37:29 guille_` [n=user@193.Red-81-37-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:24 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 18:40:04 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:44:56 milanj [n=milan@77.46.249.35] has joined #lisp 18:46:45 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 18:46:49 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:49:34 elliotstern [n=chatzill@pool-96-225-17-231.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:55 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:50:43 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:50:57 -!- Grey_Fox [n=chatzill@ppp118-208-141-225.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox-3.5 3.5.2/20090803142520]"] 18:52:00 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:58 -!- guille_ [n=user@193.Red-81-37-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:55:11 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6E556.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:33 luis: ok, just a second. 19:02:17 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:52 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:07:55 sorry was called; back now 19:08:07 ok it's the example of the MIDDLEGUY 19:08:34 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-181-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:37 it's the concept; what can I use it for in my everyday programming? Can I live without it or not? 19:09:13 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:10:58 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@pool-96-225-17-231.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:11:54 I would place DEFSETF somewhere between level 2 and level 3 19:12:20 level 1=beginner, level 2 = medium level, level 3 = expert 19:12:58 lispm: that explains. I think i'm not more than level 2. Do you use defsetf? 19:13:47 lispm: how would you rank DEFINE-SETF-EXPANDER? :) 19:14:32 -!- Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:17:14 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable230.220-179-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:17:27 luis: level 3 19:17:45 francogrex: only if I write custom data structures 19:18:21 usually when using CLOS DEFSETF is not needed, since I can write SETF methods (or similar) 19:19:03 the long form of DEFSETF is level 3 19:19:28 sometimes you which for INCF with, say, multiplication 19:19:31 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 19:19:38 then a MULTF can be handy 19:20:10 stuff like that is where the simple form can be handy 19:20:16 lispm: ok incf is a macro right? 19:20:26 yes 19:20:34 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:20:43 so you suggest defining a macro with defsetf instead of defmacro? 19:21:35 in this case it is easier, because DEFSETF is short for a special task - it also probably uses something like DEFMACRO internally 19:22:33 lispm: ok can you maybe paste a code of how to use defsetf to frine multf? it would help 19:22:54 s\frine/define 19:25:13 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:26:16 let me find another example, multf would be usually done with DEFINE-MODIFY-MACRO 19:28:26 like (define-modify-macro multf (&rest args) *) ? 19:29:50 something like that 19:30:10 when would one use DEFSETF? 19:30:20 example 19:30:33 say you have internally a database of users 19:30:41 a user is an object 19:30:51 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host94-170-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:30:55 now you have a function to get an user 19:31:17 (get-user "francogrex") -> # 19:31:44 now you want to register a user stassats 19:32:08 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6E556.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 19:32:22 (setf (get-user "stassats") (make-instance 'user :name "stassats")) 19:32:37 so you want to use the above setf form 19:33:06 (get-foo bar) and the you want (setf (get-foo bar) something) 19:33:30 you have a function to get something and now you want to be able to set it also without writing 19:34:05 (set-user "francogrex" (make-instance 'user :name "francogrex")) 19:34:15 a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has joined #lisp 19:34:38 the SETF stuff actually frees you from remembering various conventions how a setter might be named 19:34:48 lispm: ok, I think I have to define the class 'user first. 19:34:49 then write (defun (setf get-user) ...) ? 19:34:56 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:35:27 stassats, right that's one way 19:35:39 francogrex: i just thought of something else 19:35:42 so then defsetf is more for CLOS 19:36:14 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 19:36:16 what kind of user data type it is plays no role 19:36:17 Xach: i'm all ears and eyes. stassats the (define-modify-macro multf (&rest args) *) was very useful BTW 19:36:19 i don't think so, objects can be modified with just functions 19:36:20 CLOS or not clos 19:36:26 francogrex: no matter what great, unique thing about lisp you come up with, your friend can reply "i am a happy, productive programmer and i have never used that feature, so clearly it is not important" 19:36:46 *Xach* is living in the past 19:37:09 Xach: that was the question 6 hours ago, but cool 19:37:26 but instead of giving the user the SET-USER function, you register it for SETF by doing 19:37:40 (defsetf get-user set-user) 19:37:51 the short form of DEFSETF 19:37:53 Xach: though I don't think so, once I showed a guy about "memoization" and he was stunned and he started exploring CL 19:38:05 -!- prip [n=_prip@host144-9-dynamic.7-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:38:20 lispm: ok thanks. it's easier now that it's explained 19:38:32 so DEFSETF is a tool to declare the inverse of a GETTER, the SETTER 19:39:20 elliotstern [n=chatzill@pool-96-225-17-231.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:26 interestingly DEFSETF leads to a slight complication of Lisp functions, can you see what it is? 19:39:41 kind of unfortunate I would say 19:40:14 no taker? 19:40:30 count down 3 19:40:30 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:35 2 19:40:39 1 19:40:41 complications? 19:40:43 lispm: it adds another special case to SLIME highlighting of definition forms? :P 19:40:50 -!- sayyestolife [n=jot_n@79.136.60.147] has quit [] 19:41:06 the complication it adds is that now in Common Lisp we have function names that are not symbols 19:41:30 well, you can have this with DEFUN as well 19:41:39 (defun (setf blah) ...) 19:41:40 lispm: is this a bad thing? 19:42:05 DEFUN is the same problem, the whole SETF mechanism is it 19:42:49 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:57 francogrex usually a function name is a symbol, but sometimes one forgets the SETF case and this leads to errors in code 19:43:10 #'(setf foo) can be a function 19:43:18 like only handling symbols instead of s-exps? 19:43:25 right 19:43:49 like (symbol-name (function-name some-function)) 19:44:11 ah, yeah. 19:44:12 breaks, because you can take a SYMBOL-NAME from a SETF function 19:44:18 interestingly, ccl has package SETF 19:44:26 for such function names 19:44:59 yeah, it does SETF::| a little off topic here: there are experts (like level 3 or more here). Are you guys those who have contributed to the develpment of CL (like were in the committe for the ANSI meetings?) 19:46:40 francogrex: no 19:46:44 (defclass foo () ((a :accessor foo-a))) 19:46:46 stassats? lispm? Xach? others 19:46:55 #'(setf foo-a) 19:47:00 francogrex: max is level 80, so level 3 is not all that great! 19:47:13 ? (function-name *) -> (setf foo-a) 19:47:22 francogrex: i wasn't born yet 19:47:33 ansi cl was before my time 19:47:44 stassats: note that that is bad, if not actually non-conformant, because it breaks if packages are renamed 19:47:49 i was once to a post ansi-cl ansi-cl meeting 19:47:52 stassats: ok. Who is considered the father of ansi cl? Guy steel? 19:48:03 Xach: didn't that get expanded with the last release, "World of Lispcraft: Wrath of the LispKing"? 19:48:21 or the other guy, the one who invented ARC 19:48:37 god no 19:48:39 graham 19:48:45 a) 'Arc', not "ARC", and b) NO. 19:48:55 francogrex there is an initial group of people 19:48:59 stassats: why "god no" 19:49:00 prip [n=_prip@host72-130-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:49:32 I know that John McCarthy is like the god of lisp... but who comes next? 19:49:45 guy steele ? 19:49:46 see here for the CL contributors to the first CL version 19:49:47 http://lispm.dyndns.org/documentation/cltl2/clm/node4.html#SECTION00400000000000000000 19:49:56 maybe his student who wrote that interpreter, against his orders ;) 19:51:30 (steve russel) 19:51:35 +l 19:51:46 the inner circle for the first CL were: Scott Fahlman, Guy Steele, David Moon, Daniel Weinreb, and Richard P. Gabriel 19:52:10 the leader was fahlman 19:52:34 lispm: did he write any books? it woulkd be worth reading 19:52:38 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 19:52:58 funny, he's the one I heard least about 19:53:13 Bawden, Pitman, Rees, van Roggen, Rosenbaum, Stallman, Steele, Weinreb 19:53:19 fahlman is famous for having invented the smily 19:53:27 smiley 19:53:33 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Fahlman 19:54:11 names i already heard of 19:54:14 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:54:28 i don't know from where though 19:54:54 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:28 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:47 sepult: knowledge of Lisp and its history is inherent within us, and must simply be awoken. 19:56:32 I only know "guy steele" and later the saint paul of Cl was Paul Graham; you cannot deny that he attracted loads of peopole with his article about the secret weapon 19:56:45 that is very true 19:56:54 adlai: maieutikos! 19:57:07 http://cisnet.mit.edu/view/8kvh3/default , Fahlman , NETL: A System for Representing and Using Real-World Knowledge 19:57:36 kpreid: after renaming #'(setf new-name::bar) does work, but only old package name is in the SETF package 19:57:48 huh. 19:57:55 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-181-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:58:17 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.213.8] has joined #lisp 19:58:36 Fahlman was a CMU doing SPICE Lisp, later renamed CMU Common Lisp and then forked to SBCL and Scieneer CL 19:59:01 Moon was Chief Technical Officer at Symbolics 19:59:24 Weinreb was also at Symbolics, wrote the first Lisp-based Emacs, etc. 19:59:47 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 19:59:48 weinreb's recent google talk was interesting. 19:59:57 he was pretty chuffed about clojure. 20:00:09 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 20:00:28 Richard P. Gabriel founded Lucid, was involved with Lucid Common Lisp, a very nice Common Lisp for Unix and author of for example the Performance Evaluation book on Lisp (-> Gabriel Benchmarks) 20:01:17 and has john Macarthy ever spoke about common lisp? 20:01:30 he has 20:02:01 WarWeasle [n=brad@98.220.168.14] has joined #lisp 20:02:09 but he is not THAT interested into these things, more interested about AI stuff 20:02:52 lispm: i see 20:04:17 francogrex: keep in mind, John McCarthy really just developed the mathematical basis behind Lisp, but he never even intented to have it made practical. I think he faded away from the Lisp community when "ISP" got lowercased... 20:04:19 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@adsl-69-107-114-172.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:05:36 he has designed another language later 20:05:53 that "elephant" thing? 20:06:19 yes 20:06:36 remember him talking about it in some interview 20:06:40 http://www.infoq.com/interviews/mccarthy-elephant-2000 20:06:53 wasn't he also busy routing up "those commies" at one point? :) 20:07:14 probably he was puzzling the interviewer quite a lot 20:07:41 lispm: so mcCarthy is not considred the father of Lisp? 20:07:51 he is 20:08:05 but LISP is something abstract, a family of languages 20:08:09 Adlai: that was another McCarthy 20:08:43 stassats: didn't you read Scott Fahlman's post? ":)" = I do naught but jest... 20:08:45 the fathers of Common Lisp were the five above, plus lots of people supporting and the people who designed the prior dialects where they stole from 20:08:59 and McCarthy not inevented Lisp, he just discovered it 20:09:06 I think that's the interview where the interviewer asked, what he (mccarthy) thought of ruby, and he just asked "is code data" (paraphrased), and, after the answer, just looked commiserating at the interviewer 20:09:17 lispm: I wouldn't call it stealing 20:09:23 yes, that's great 20:09:34 Adlai: i don't trust smiles, that's why i don't use them anymore 20:09:43 -!- francogrex [n=franco@91.176.129.45] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:09:55 michealw, okay, ;-), what would be your wording ? 20:10:30 danlei: that was peter novig doing his "python is the new lisp" talk and mccarthy interjected from the audient, I think. 20:10:42 s/audient/audience 20:10:42 the general intellectual environment which inspired them 20:10:54 Fade: ah, that's possible, ty 20:11:03 primordial soup? 20:11:12 No, John, it doesn't. 20:11:18 cue laughter from the audience 20:11:37 there are those funny moments 20:12:03 I also remember at the same conference probably, Paul Graham talking about arc for the first time 20:12:40 the room was full of Common Lisp people and Graham was making one snide remark about Common Lisp after the other 20:12:50 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 20:12:50 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2D466.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:12:54 if there were some tomatoes, ... 20:13:12 graham likes call/cc 20:13:29 Graham is correct in liking call/cc 20:13:42 considering there was a signifigant portion of "On Lisp" that was actually illustrated in scheme, I guess it isn't that surprising. 20:13:49 danlei [n=user@pD9E2D466.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:50 I like call/cc, too. 20:13:58 I hope to see it in cltl3 :) 20:14:46 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:15:01 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 20:15:02 I wonder, has graham ever ellucidated why he chose scheme to bootstrap arc? 20:15:03 does haskell have continuations? 20:15:13 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@98.220.168.14] has left #lisp 20:15:17 I think Graham used some primitive form of callcc with his Yahoo application (written in CLISP) 20:15:40 same thing in arc's web app 20:15:44 a hash table of closures 20:16:00 lispm: I don't know anything about the actuall yahoo stores application, but "On Lisp" includes a CL implementation of call/cc 20:16:04 there are expiry problems with it 20:16:07 -l 20:16:09 Fade: what should he have used else? C? CL is disliked by him that he can't use it anymore.... 20:16:11 michaelw pasted "The value NIL is not of type SB-C::CLEANUP." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85915 20:16:34 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-181-186.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:16:49 can somebody with a recent sbcl test the paste above? 20:16:52 I think it is overstating the situation a bit to say that he dislikes common lisp. 20:17:01 he hates it 20:17:03 Fade: are you serious? 20:17:14 Fade: he has been clear in his dislike for a long time. 20:17:17 to the extent that he would rather use C? 20:17:19 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 20:17:21 not at all. 20:17:24 Scheme 20:17:31 michaelw: the same in .30.46 20:17:44 mbishop_ [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #lisp 20:18:12 but his books definitely reflect a taste for very non-idiomatic CL 20:18:16 if CLTL3 ever gets off the ground 20:18:23 stassats: thanks 20:18:34 I think the languages are going to meet in the middle anyway 20:18:40 Fade: no, they are for teaching his ideal Lisp, using CL (reluctantly) for illustration 20:18:51 Fade: On Lisp is interesting to read, but ANSI CL already lacked passion 20:18:56 R7RS is doing a little Scheme and a big Scheme 20:19:07 From that McCarthy video... "Does [Ruby] use, for example, list structures as data. So if you want to compute with sums and products, you have to parse every time? So, in that respect Ruby still isn't up to where Lisp was in 1960." 20:19:17 and the big Scheme is getting Common Schemish 20:19:19 well, imo, On Lisp is still the best published treatment of macros in CL. 20:19:35 just like CLTL3 is hopefully going to clean up some stufff about CL 20:20:14 Fade: unfortunately he describes lots of stuff, lots of esoteric stuff and misses lots of usual use of CL macros 20:20:42 sure. nothing is ever perfect, and in this case the subject matter is vast. 20:21:13 Fade: for example all the DEFthing are macros in CL 20:21:14 i don't know, i finally understood macros when i started to write them myself, On Lisp didn't help much 20:21:23 he called CL ugly, burn the witch 20:21:39 Fade: Graham says very little about DEFthing, why, how, problems, ... 20:22:25 perhaps it's down to learning styles, but I found the book helpful in my development as a lisp programmer. 20:23:30 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:23:38 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483C344.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:27 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9513173.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:24:31 Fade: no doubt 20:24:39 fade: ah, it really was in that interview, too. mccarthy: "I don't know enough, for example, about ruby, to know in what way it's related to lisp. I suppose that ... does it use, for example, list structures as data?" Interviewer: "Not in the same way, no. Not s-expressions." McCarthy: "Aha. So, if you want to compute with sums and products, you have to parse every time? Well, ahm ... he nodded. So, in that respect, ruby is not up to 20:24:39 where lisp was in 1960." 20:24:55 danlei: aye, so I see. ty 20:25:39 danlei: look up... :-\ 20:25:39 I think Peter Seibel did a good job with his book and some macros 20:25:50 PCL is an excellent text book. 20:25:54 PCL are book good 20:26:05 trebor_home [n=email@dslb-084-059-012-182.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:03 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:27:04 then there is LOL, which I haven't read - yet 20:27:17 LOL? 20:27:23 it sounds really awful 20:27:34 Let Over Lambda 20:27:38 ahh 20:27:48 is it any good at all or worth just ignoring 20:27:52 http://letoverlambda.com/ 20:27:55 when i read the preamble I got the impression that it was a brucio project. 20:28:00 haha 20:28:03 Adlai: oh :) 20:28:03 lol 20:28:11 that's the sticking point yes 20:28:18 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229064236.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 20:28:28 I have to look at Amazon for any brucio books 20:28:32 after seeing some of the intro repeated here I didn't take it seriously 20:28:55 if you skip that stuff does it actually have anything worth reading? 20:28:59 a few people that I respect took a rather dim view of it 20:29:16 as a result, I haven't read it. 20:30:58 if you look at his code for the book, at some point he actually gets to some useful macro usage 20:31:30 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:31:42 WITH-FAST-STACK, WITH-CONS-POOL 20:31:51 but it is not that much ... 20:31:54 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-191-75.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:32:46 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@pool-96-225-17-231.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:33:04 plus readmacros and compiler macros 20:33:17 could be useful, maybe I buy it sometime... 20:33:27 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9513173.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 20:33:53 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:33:59 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 20:34:44 in the meantime we can guess what Nick Levine will write about macros in his new book 20:34:51 http://lisp-book.org/contents/ 20:35:31 I just hope it's a little crunchier than titles from ORA in the past half dozen years or so. 20:36:04 sounds to me like the book is going to ship with allegro. 20:36:14 and lets not forget another Lisp book that mentions macros 20:36:15 which is sort of lame. 20:36:17 I don't like that eihter. :/ 20:36:24 http://www.lisperati.com/casting_spels.pdf 20:36:27 lispm, macros? doesn't seem that way. 20:36:46 Looking forward to the new Lisp comic book! Any idea when it's out? 20:37:00 end of the year? 20:37:17 for maximum confusion based on name, it could ship with the allegro lisp in a box thing 20:37:44 http://nostarch.com/lisp.htm 20:37:45 I really wish that he went with sbcl, but whatever. 20:37:59 Fade, half the book would be no longer, then. 20:38:01 it seems mildly perverse to be looking clos before lists 20:38:01 maybe Franz is paying 20:38:06 and allegrocache before slime 20:38:21 lispm, that's the one, thanks! 20:38:29 good present to your near & dear! 20:38:32 yeah, the lisp choice seems to have skewed things rather profoundly. 20:38:44 elliotstern [n=chatzill@pool-96-225-17-231.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:44 Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 20:38:45 I don't really understand the 'Lisp outside the box'? 20:38:54 this box metaphor has to go. 20:39:10 lispm, Lisp outside the CAR/CDR box? 20:39:26 and talking to a message queue... and clojure 20:39:26 he says each part will focus on a particular Lisp : Allegro, Clozure, SBCL, LispWorks, Clojure. 20:39:37 yeah, that too ;-) 20:39:40 _is_ there a convenient way to talk to clojure from common lisp? 20:39:49 abcl 20:39:50 from abcl? 20:39:50 ABCL perhaps? 20:39:50 one of those scary java interfaces, I suppose... 20:39:52 'cause _that_ won't distract from the actual material. 20:39:55 doh 20:40:22 aha! He's even advertising Allegro's own personal made-up license in the last appendix :) 20:40:24 he should replace Clojure with ABCL 20:41:02 lispm: would you buy this book? 20:41:09 which one? 20:41:12 from Nick? 20:41:15 Levine's 20:41:27 hmm, let me look at the contents 20:41:51 it seems really odd 20:41:52 i'll likely buy it as a vote for lisp, but my hopes aren't actually that high. 20:41:57 24 macro applications 20:42:06 here's hoping gigamonkey decides to do a follow-up to PCL 20:42:12 maybe it will be brilliant, of course, but the chapters alone look very strange 20:42:21 and throwing in clojure is perverse and confusing 20:42:45 I hope that the chapters are long enough to contain something actually interesting beyond basic descriptions 20:42:51 that sounds like an editorial push, considering ORA's investment in java titles. ;) 20:43:00 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:13 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:26 you'd think they'd just do a clojure book then :) 20:43:34 (There's already at least one rather good one) 20:43:43 "Lisp is a marginal platform, at best!" 20:43:58 hmm, part I 'open the box' can be skipped, I guess 20:44:05 the project seems rather half hearted, but I will wait to see the product before judging. 20:44:15 lispm, nice video ..... so .. no implementation offering 'elephant' features yet? 20:44:38 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32BCDA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:44 hmm, part II 'inventory of the box' - what is 'portable state' ? 20:44:57 part II looks weird 20:44:59 until someone will implement elephant compiler in elephant 20:45:08 and the another history cycle will be completed 20:45:41 Part III, IV, V, VI look interesting 20:46:13 stassats: I'd say: maybe ;-) 20:46:17 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 20:46:23 it isn't clear to me why, if he's looking at a task/recipe format, they didn't just do a generic "Common Lisp Cookbook" 20:46:37 *Fade* shrugs 20:46:49 I think such a book would be v.useful. 20:47:11 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:47:35 araujo, not elephant 2000, though there are Lisp libraries using Speech Acts in language domains 20:47:44 i'd buy gigamonkey's writing on literate programming description of cl-ppcre, but not just a discription of how to use cl-ppcre 20:48:32 -!- Ogedei [n=user@e178228116.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:49:22 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 20:50:06 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:50:07 why not use CLIKI for a community written Lisp book? 20:50:24 with the chapter you always wished to read 20:50:54 i wish to read about sbcl internals 20:50:55 lispm: http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/ 20:50:56 lispm: because it is not the most pleasant syntax? 20:50:58 Isn't there some wikipedia related Lisp bool 20:51:01 book 20:51:17 the cookbook, right 20:51:50 after seeing the google tech talk about 'javascript: the good parts' I think parenscript is actually better than raw javascript, even without the macros 20:52:04 http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Common_Lisp 20:52:50 well, PCL is good enough to not rewrite it 20:53:06 anybody even met Conrad Barski? 20:53:06 javascript would have been great if they had just left it as a scheme. 20:53:52 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:54:05 I want an animated Lisp movie by Pixar with the script and graphics design from Conrad 20:54:13 *Adlai* drools at a browser that would have an embedded Scheme compiler 20:54:29 alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:31 http://nostarch.com/lisp.htm as a movie 20:54:36 Adlai: well, js is just scheme with a lot of superfluous syntax. 20:54:38 Adlai: and a mail client? 20:54:49 so I guess every browser already comes /w that feature provided. :) 20:55:02 the syntax makes Lispy stuff painful though, no? 20:55:16 the syntax makes everything painful due to cognitive dissonance. 20:55:19 I actually am not in a position to judge JS though, I haven't spent one minute trying to learn 20:55:37 you have to RETURN in JS, right? 20:55:59 it's like they took the punctuation chicklets off of one of those apple aluminum keyboards and fired it at the specification with a shotgun. 20:56:02 *Adlai* just found out about #'cis and is amazed, as usual. 20:56:51 -!- jauaor [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [] 20:56:53 Patrick Stein about macros: http://vimeo.com/channels/tclispers#5664621 20:57:23 zenbalrog [n=johnnyc@adsl-75-5-181-47.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:30 -!- zenbalrog [n=johnnyc@adsl-75-5-181-47.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 20:57:31 awe, names aren't fortunate 20:57:35 jauaor [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 20:59:14 cis = Cos + I Sin 20:59:18 hmmmm is it just me, or is the HTML generator of http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Common_Lisp messed up? look for example at this page http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Common_Lisp/Advanced_topics/Hash_tables#Traversing_a_Hash_Table 20:59:38 yes 21:01:00 it seems to get confused by the first * 21:01:03 lispm: yeah, I know e^(pi*theta) = cos(theta)+isin(theta), I'm just amazed that Lisp has that as a function required in the spec 21:01:04 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@pool-96-225-17-231.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:01:26 me too, does any other language have that? 21:01:53 adlai, if I remove the first * from the code, it looks better 21:02:01 well, Elephant doesn't even have to calculate cos+isin, because it never forgets the answers. 21:02:53 *Adlai* thinks that the examples on that page should be CLHS-like; 21:03:05 along these lines: 21:03:11 tag in wikipedia looks much better than in wikibooks 21:03:13 _Trickster_ [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has joined #lisp 21:03:31 anyone read let over lambda ? 21:03:40 (make-hash-table) 21:03:40 => 21:04:55 oh crap, it's awefull in russian wikipedia too 21:05:01 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-75.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:05:33 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9513173.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:05:33 in general, it seems to be the case that if you take a lisp-like language and shove on a more familiar syntax people are far more willing to use it 21:05:49 dylan? 21:05:54 Apple found this with Dylan, for instance; it originally had lisp-like syntax 21:06:28 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:06:31 yep 21:07:00 shame they didn't use it in the end, really 21:07:01 but then it died?! 21:07:18 it was meant to be used in the failed Newton thing 21:07:21 but it was late 21:07:44 CMU was working on an implementation, Harlequin had one 21:07:50 (by the same people as MCL, which was actually part of apple at the time, or something 21:07:56 the Harlequin Dylan was sold 21:08:09 yep, there's an opensource one as well 21:08:35 the Harlequin Dylan was sold, few wanted it and then it was open sourced, still nobody wanted it 21:08:38 but if newton had been a successful system and they'd used dylan for it, it could have been a big thing :) 21:08:41 -!- zeroish` [n=zeroish@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:08:55 with the Lisp syntax ;-) 21:09:05 maybe not with the lisp syntax 21:09:19 zeroish` [n=zeroish@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:23 ehhrrr looking at the examples of Dylan on their WP page, it looks like a Perl-free Ruby... 21:09:30 they were trying to flog it to their base of C++ and PAscal programmers 21:09:59 WELL, yes 21:10:09 (apple has always been keen to replace C++; they finally succeeded with Objc, but there've been many failures) 21:10:11 BUT, have you seen Apple Dylan 21:10:20 ? 21:10:45 I've seen dylan of some sort 21:11:13 a) the syntax was not C like 21:11:32 b) the environment was some kind of IDE getting rid of files 21:11:47 I wonder which C++ programmer would have used that 21:12:08 syntax is potentially less weird for the average programmer than lisp tho 21:12:09 one was editing in-place in a source code browser 21:12:24 the whole pascal syntax lost 21:12:25 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9513173.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 21:12:26 -!- jauaor [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [] 21:12:30 people have had no trouble going over to Ruby and Python and so forth from C-like languages 21:12:57 dylan looks more like a Lisp Pascal breed 21:14:33 AgentX [n=x@118.95.41.125] has joined #lisp 21:15:02 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:15:24 actually, they're sort of at it again, now; they've released a ruby using the objc GC 21:17:42 are they using it for something? 21:19:13 Apple still uses C++ for driver stuff. a specialized restricted subset of it. 21:20:24 I read an account of the Dylan for Newton thing. they hired a bunch of Lisp and Dylan guys to work on it, then changed their minds partway through and made them write everything in C++ 21:21:07 the guy who wrote it was more of a "C++ guy" but he could tell the folks involved were officially Not Happy at having to program in C++ 21:21:32 -!- |Trickster| [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:21:48 Adamant, what subset of C++? 21:22:01 Embedded something or other 21:22:10 it's for IOKit stuff IIRC 21:22:22 it cuts down on a lot of C++'s feature set 21:22:30 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:22:32 Imunizador_R [n=user5442@187.56.49.67] has joined #lisp 21:22:39 to make it more appropriate for drivers 21:22:42 hm 21:22:45 Adamant: they probably simply remove a lot of standard library 21:22:55 why not just cut pluses? 21:22:57 p_l: they impose some other restrictions s well 21:23:07 stassats: Apple seems to really like OO 21:23:16 just like you can use C++ in Linux with few additional files to implement certain parts of runtime 21:23:16 which makes some sense 21:23:20 the Newton OS kernel was also written in a restricted version of C++ 21:23:41 Adamant: C++ was chosen because they thought Objective-C would be too hard :> 21:23:50 ? 21:23:53 for drivers? 21:23:56 is objC harder than C++? 21:23:58 (not to mention that Apple's Objective-C runtime is the heaviest of all) 21:23:59 no 21:24:09 yes because it's doing a lot of dynamic stuff 21:24:09 Adamant: "too different" for driver writers 21:24:18 p_l: well yeah 21:24:20 lispm: trying to encourage people to use it to write GUI apps 21:24:27 (it has rather nice objc integration) 21:24:27 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:24:42 most driver writers can get by on C and C++ on basically almost all platforms 21:24:48 I'd think drivers are usually written in C, not C++. 21:24:54 "Objective C has all the memory safety of C combined with the blazing speed of Smalltalk." 21:25:00 objc might be problematic for drivers; there's that runtime 21:25:09 it's quite a nice language for general use, though 21:25:11 adding Obj-C just to be different isn't necessarily smart 21:25:41 *whoppix* wonders if someone has written a driver in lisp before. 21:25:49 whoppix: they've written drivers in lots of languages, but C/C++ are the usual industrial bread and butter 21:25:50 minion: well whoppix about symbolics 21:25:51 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 21:25:58 tell 21:26:03 whoppix: Lisp Machines were entirely written in Lisp 21:26:11 Adlai, ah, yeah, those 21:26:14 (and assembler) 21:26:24 Adlai: actually, Objective-C can be quite fast. It's just that the runtimes in use are not the best :D 21:26:25 Movitz 21:26:32 -!- macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:26:34 (assembler for a machine optimized to do Lisp) 21:26:35 AgentX_ [n=x@118.95.53.120] has joined #lisp 21:26:51 Adamant, hm, yeah, but doesn't C++ do a lot of weird name mangling and stuff at compile time? Can you write drivers for, say, linux in C++ without having some C wrapper code or something? 21:27:11 whoppix: yes it does a bunch of weird and wacky stuff 21:27:21 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:27:31 I don't know about Linux, I would just do it in straight C in Linux 21:27:40 so I've never looked into it 21:28:16 I've once heard about some company having written some device driver in perl. It got them a 5x speedup, they said. I still wonder how that happened. 21:28:25 I once looked at it for some college project; there was a major problem, but I can't remember the details 21:28:30 maybe the speedup was in developent time 21:28:31 I just went with C in the end 21:28:40 whoppix: probably the perl code was generating the code that actually ran 21:28:43 Xach, nah, I think they where talking about runtime. 21:28:59 (though for certain things user mode drivers are an acceptable compromise) 21:29:02 p_l, hm, I'll look it up 21:29:03 maybe weird string mangling. Perl is pretty fast at it 21:29:11 whoppix: possibly they were just REALLY bad at C? :) 21:29:16 also possible 21:29:39 rsynnott, heh, yeah, that was my first thought 21:29:41 whoppix: many device drivers are partially implemented in the hardware's "microcode", so having perl generator doesn't sound strange 21:29:41 Perl 5x faster than C? It's posible they had hired bad C coders ...maybe. 21:29:53 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177155209.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:29:58 -!- AgentX [n=x@118.95.41.125] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:30:09 AgentX: some of Perl's string stuff is pretty optimized 21:30:18 a naive C programmer could do a lot worse 21:30:21 whoppix: I'm using quotes for microcode because my previous laptop had ~4 MIPS32 chips in it ;> 21:30:29 p_l, microcode? Why would the driver contain microcode? I thought the microcode was only supposed to run on the hardware. 21:30:44 drivers with lots of regex parsing? 21:31:17 whoppix: board contained processors. processors need firmware 21:31:38 I've never heard of coding drivers in Perl. Is it even possible to use an interpreted language with a massive runtime for driver development? That too in a *NIX world? 21:31:43 Oh, so you generate the micro-code at runtime and upload it to the processors? 21:31:47 whoppix: driver loads code, initializes it and then connects to it over specified protocol 21:32:25 AgentX_, hm, I suppose it might be possible to embed the perl interpreter into a driver... 21:32:26 Heh! Microcode reminds me of Transmeta. ;> 21:32:45 you could certainly use it to write user-mode stuff 21:32:55 microcode reminds of most modern processors 21:32:59 me 21:33:01 (user mode file systems and such) 21:33:07 well, I don't remember, perhaps they where talking about some user-mode stuff. 21:33:26 dreish_ [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:33:41 hi, (ensure-directories-exist "foo") => "foo" NIL. the dir isn't created. what am I doing wrong? I have write to the containing dir. doesn't work with a full pathname either 21:33:53 Most modern processors are not capable of updating their microcode the way Crusoe does. 21:34:08 they have limited microcode update, though 21:34:18 Their self-modifying archtecture is almost Lispy. 21:34:19 egn: (ensure-directories-exist "foo/") 21:34:28 egn: you can start to hate pathanmes right now 21:34:35 a lot of linuxes used to shove a new microcode onto P4s; don't know if they do for current chips 21:34:40 minion: cl-fad? 21:34:41 cl-fad: CL-FAD is a portable pathname library based on code from Peter Seibel's book Practical Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/cl-fad 21:34:45 AgentX_: most "bigger" CISC cpus use microcode 21:35:16 rsynnott: they still sometimes do, as it's easier to upgrade than patching bios 21:35:18 crusoe had more than just microcode; it had a partially software JIT-ish thing that ran in some sort of hypervisor 21:35:33 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 21:35:34 That's what I meant. 21:35:48 (ensure-directories-exist (cl-fad:pathname-as-directory "foo")) 21:35:52 rsynnott: to be exact, it had software recompiler from x86 to its internal VLIW architecture 21:35:59 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:17 latter models used 256bit instructions, iirc 21:36:23 very clever, really 21:36:34 suffered greatly from insufficient cache, though, apparently 21:36:54 rsynnott: actually, it's quite similar to how P6 works, except their design was completely separated from x86 21:36:59 or fad:, which I find to be much nicer 21:37:15 and they used IA-64-like approach, iirc 21:37:21 ppcre: etc, it feels silly putting cl- all over the place, like "of course I'm writing common lisp" 21:37:36 Intel microcode also apparently requires authentication of the microcode for it to be loaded 21:37:39 no soup for you 21:37:51 lispm [n=joswig@e177145092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:37:57 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:38:02 yep, I remember reading descriptions of IA64 and crusoe architecture; they were surprisingly similar 21:38:13 rsynnott: P6 decodes x86 instructions into 112bit instructions specifying exact operations 21:38:20 Both in technology and fate? 21:38:34 well, IA64 is still hanging on :) 21:38:37 (just about) 21:38:46 Almost ;> 21:38:47 fall 21:38:51 FALL, damnit 21:38:56 :P 21:39:04 who cares? 21:39:14 I hope it never rises 21:39:15 it's not a horrible design :) 21:39:21 it killed all the really cool chips 21:39:24 like Alpha 21:39:29 yep, that is a shame 21:39:29 for political reasons 21:39:36 but no point hoping it'll die too 21:39:42 I feel more for Rock. 21:39:46 I'm happy with AMD64? 21:39:49 yep, that's really a pity 21:39:56 Rock looked very, very interesting 21:40:08 so Sun killed the super sipper SPARC? 21:40:22 makes sense I guess, after the Oracle takeover 21:40:36 Adamant: I'd say any chip that was bought by Compaq was dead. I mean, if you are lapdog of a cpu maker and suddenly find yourself a competition to it, it tends to go in a certain direction, right? 21:40:39 Well, technically, it still can be revived. SPARC is quite an open architecture. 21:40:53 AgentX_: I doubt SPARC will die that easily 21:40:55 it is very documented and open yeah 21:41:19 it doesn't have much of a niche right now though 21:41:25 MIPS and ARM have embedded 21:41:42 sparc certainly isn't dead 21:41:46 but Rock seems to be 21:41:55 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.249.219] has joined #lisp 21:41:56 PPC/POWER has IBM servers and high-powered low-energy-consumption embedded 21:42:00 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:42:12 AMD64 über alles 21:42:18 (if nothing else, Futjisu will still make boring old sparcs, and Sun's Niagara chips still work well in a certain niche 21:42:18 on the desktop 21:42:29 and most servers 21:42:36 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.249.35] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:42:43 *stassats* patiently waits for quantum computers 21:43:27 *Adamant* waits patiently for someone to throw up their rock fist 21:44:13 There's different degrees of death though. I think a lot of people say "dead" when the architecture's not being improved on any more. Would you say the 8051's dead, even though it's in most of the keyboards out there and controls a lot of car windows? 21:44:30 nvoorhies: it has a purpose, being cheap 21:44:38 Rock is still dead by those standards; no-one can make it 21:44:43 -!- trebor_home [n=email@dslb-084-059-012-182.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:44:46 same with Alpha, I think 21:44:48 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslw197.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:44:51 what is Itanic's purpose besides running OVMS? 21:45:02 pretty much nothing 21:45:39 what do it do that other chips don't do better? 21:45:56 ...fail? 21:46:15 rsynnott, we kinda new all along that rocks where dead :P 21:46:29 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-35-74.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:46:36 If they release the specs to OpenSPARC project, there's still a chance. 21:46:50 dunno 21:47:03 I thought itanium's got pretty crazy performance on serial scalar floating point operations or something 21:47:03 what fab is going to jump into those waters? 21:47:50 it certainly did at one point 21:48:11 it's well overdue a refresh now; the latest one has been delayed by years 21:48:23 nvoorhies: maybe, but that's like being the only left-handed competitive eating champ in a sushi restaurant. 21:48:51 That's a pity. It was a nifty experiment in how much static scheduling can win you in a way 21:49:15 they booted every problem to the compiler writers 21:49:16 which is probably part of what hurt it; early compilers were very bad at that 21:49:31 interestingly, there seems to have been a lot of IA64 work on LLVM 21:49:56 and they didn't consider that people write lots of compilers for a truly popular arch, and you just increased the workload for all of them 21:50:32 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:50:51 I mean everyone just doesn't use icc or gcc or llvm or whatever they decided the reference implementation should be, and they have to compile lots of different language 21:51:07 are there gtk+ bindings for lisp? 21:51:18 I still don't think the static scheduling issues were the big problem, more the process problems and insisting on x86 backwards compat in the first rev 21:51:19 yes 21:51:24 there are 21:51:27 minion: tell Edico about cl-gtk2 21:51:27 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``cl-gtk2''. 21:51:40 minion: gtk? 21:51:41 gtk: Gtk (GTK+) is a Graphics Toolkit written in C, primarily developed for use with the X Window System. http://www.cliki.net/gtk 21:51:43 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.249.219] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:51:56 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-gtk2/ 21:52:12 -!- dreish_ [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [No route to host] 21:52:30 thank you 21:52:37 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:52:53 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 21:53:44 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit ["leaving"] 21:53:55 -!- a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:54:07 a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has joined #lisp 21:54:34 alexsuraci_ [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:54 -!- alexsuraci_ [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Success] 21:55:10 alexsuraci_ [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:30 Adamant: what really killed IA64 was how Intel allowed x86 to compete against it 21:55:50 no, if they didn't AMD was going to kill IA64 AND Intel 21:56:06 AMD forced their hand 21:56:26 by providing a upgrade path more similar to usual Intel upgrades 21:56:47 AMD never had the production capacity to kill intel 21:56:47 only taking out significant amounts of suck 21:56:57 not immediately 21:57:03 but everyone would have bought AMD 21:57:13 AMD would have become the premium brand 21:57:14 it seems to have been designed in the context of the late 90s IT boom, where servers in particular were mostly SPARCs and similar 21:57:31 by the time they actually got it out, they were also competing against their own cheap chips 21:57:50 Yeah, but then AMD wouldn't be able to ramp production without tripling their number of fabs and that'd take 5-10 years 21:57:51 Adamant: that briefly happened with the opteron for certain markets 21:58:00 rsynnott: also, they killed off any possible "popular" variant of IA64 21:58:17 rsynnott: Intel can tolerate it for short periods of time 21:58:25 it happened with the original Athlon as well 21:58:29 p_l: Microsoft was also slow with producing a usable Windows for it, as per normal 21:58:45 rsynnott: in some markets only the newest Xeons started to stop losing against Opterons 21:58:46 rsynnott: microsoft <3 intel ;) 21:58:47 (and they scrapped XP for Itanium) 21:58:59 rsynnott: there's XP for itanium afaik 21:59:13 but, not doing AMD64, would have ceded the premium to AMD 21:59:15 also, I suspect that MS wasn't all too thrilled by itanium business 21:59:17 p_l: there is, but on extended support for a while no 21:59:20 p_l: namely where memory bandwidth is needed. Some audio-operations for instance 21:59:21 *now 22:00:09 madnificent: or just any system that has more than few nodes in a single unit :-) 22:00:33 stassats: ah, thanks 22:00:33 No wonder Intel hates Atom so much. 22:00:42 -!- Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:01:04 Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:01:37 AgentX_: that's what they get for trying to kill via :) 22:01:50 also, Windows 2000 for Alpha was ready to roll and could possibly be higher priority in MS than ia64 22:03:11 they never had much luck with the non-x86 NTs, in practice 22:04:19 rsynnott: sure, but Alpha was probably the only port that had chances, thanks to recompilers 22:05:43 Cutler was disapponted. 22:06:30 AgentX_: well, I heard he told intel representatives to take their puny chips with them as they are not target market for NT, or something like that... :D 22:07:10 Did he? Well, that goes well with his personality. :P 22:07:57 AgentX_: that was back in the early days of NT, when it was ported to x86 mostly for convenience 22:08:00 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:08:21 there were also some talks about NT for Amiga, but you know how Commodore went... 22:10:29 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:12:40 Interesting! I didn't know about that. 22:13:45 kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 22:17:05 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:18:24 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177145092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:18:48 AgentX_: it never got past talks 22:19:09 but considering how Commodore busted a deal with Sun, it didn't have much chances... 22:25:52 -!- kleppari_ is now known as kleppari 22:28:35 -!- a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:28:46 a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has joined #lisp 22:29:42 o/ 22:31:02 -!- alexsuraci_ [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [No route to host] 22:34:55 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 22:36:20 -!- AgentX_ [n=x@118.95.53.120] has quit [Client Quit] 22:41:03 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:41:16 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:41:45 -!- Imunizador_R [n=user5442@187.56.49.67] has quit ["eject"] 22:42:01 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 22:42:17 Imunizador_R [n=user5442@187.56.49.67] has joined #lisp 22:44:43 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-91661.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 22:47:13 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 22:51:26 -!- Imunizador_R [n=user5442@187.56.49.67] has quit [] 22:55:41 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:01:33 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 23:01:46 -!- jangho [n=xrath@217.39.1.25] has quit [Client Quit] 23:02:11 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:05:27 -!- bigb [n=bigb@r190-64-61-195.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:05:51 -!- guille_` [n=user@193.Red-81-37-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:08:05 xrath [n=xrath@217.39.1.25] has joined #lisp 23:08:09 sepi [n=enigma@hcl-club.lu] has joined #lisp 23:08:45 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:08:58 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 23:09:00 What cl widget toolkit can you recommend except for clim that is actively developed and works well? 23:09:17 commonqt 23:09:23 bigb [n=bigb@r190-64-50-69.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 23:09:58 ltk? (not sure, but it's easy to cope with) 23:10:09 and I thought there was something like cl-glade too, no? 23:11:18 madnificent: ltk last modified 2007 23:11:26 madnificent: at least the website 23:11:46 so, it has no bugs! 23:12:06 one might hope so 23:12:10 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:30 stassats: commonqt has quite some dependencies unfortunately 23:13:18 it's a stupid argument 23:15:41 stassats: I know, but I'm a bit lazy and it might also make it more difficult to install 23:15:53 minion: tell sepi about cl-build 23:15:53 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``cl-build''. 23:15:57 minion: tell sepi about clbuild 23:15:58 sepi: please see clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 23:17:33 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:17:46 minion: yeah, I know about it. But sometimes dependencies still suck :/ 23:17:46 what is ``it''? 23:18:11 oh, lol, bot 23:18:27 minion: I don't know know, what is it?! 23:18:27 i agree - you don t know know what is it 23:18:34 heh 23:19:05 what gtk "bindin" for cl would you recommend? 23:19:34 it would depend on gtk 23:20:07 stassats: ... 23:20:46 yeah, exaggeration, i like it 23:21:21 I guess I'll take a closer look at ltk. Somehow I like tk. 23:21:57 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:52 sepi: I liked it, but haven't really done anything really graphical :) 23:23:59 mogunus [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:01 madnificent: I just need to display some buttons 23:25:51 sepi: then ltk will do, and it will probably get you showing them on the screen before you've read enough about the other options (unless you have knowledge about those other systems already) 23:25:54 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:27 -!- tczy [n=tczy@78-60-36-72.static.zebra.lt] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:28:10 madnificent: well, I might want to do some xembed stuff later on, but I guess I'll have to implement that in clx anyways 23:28:52 madnificent: I've tried to create a simple toolkit with clx but failed because I can't understand my own clos code anymore... 23:29:28 if you want to build your own stuff, you'll probably be interested in CLIM's approach... I've never read enough about it, but it seems to be done 'right' 23:29:46 sepi: when it comes to delivery dependences there are not too many... 23:30:06 madnificent: well, I've read some of it's docs and found it quite interesting but also a little complex 23:30:32 madnificent: it seemed to me that they try to cover a very general case 23:31:32 p_l: for ltk? 23:31:36 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:31:59 sepi: you should talk to beach about it... he should be able to inform you about the best reading material in order to grasp the concepts behind it 23:32:05 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:01 sepi: besides that, there has been a very vague talk about making a gui-like library based on cl-opengl (I think) on #lispgames some time ago. If you want to develop a library like that, it could be interesting to hop in there :) 23:33:43 madnificent: I "just" want to write a task-bar for stumpwm... 23:34:08 aha! I've heard about that before on #stumpwm (all fits together now :P) 23:34:14 sepi: ltk will do 23:34:34 madnificent: and I'm a little stuck with clx 23:37:47 htk_ [n=htk___@95.65.241.57] has joined #lisp 23:41:05 opengl might not be the best choice for a gui toolkit 23:41:47 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AFF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:41:59 slava: unless you want strange animation and 3d effects 23:42:06 slava: why? (i can think of some reasons, curious about yours) 23:42:20 buggy drivers on linux 23:43:04 Xach: opengl works well on windows with ati and nvidia gear, and on mac os x; windows with intel gear, and linux tends to have buggy opengl 23:43:31 also if you're going to do a lot of text rendering, you'll be wasting GPU memory because each piece of text will be its own texture, and these will not be shared between processes 23:43:44 as they would be if you used, eg, cairo or core graphics, which use central glyph caches 23:44:38 also its just low level 23:44:51 if you want to draw a nice looking circle, you'll need to pull in another library, etc 23:46:00 madnificent: haha, ltk works. That was easy 23:46:10 sepi: for commonqt 23:46:46 slava: OpenGL brings some display integration problems on recent windows 23:47:14 if you're itching to write your own GUI toolkit I think the best bet is to either use cairo on all platforms, or cairo on linux, core graphics on mac and gdi+ on windows 23:47:39 you can still use opengl here and there for effects ,etc 23:48:17 p_l: yeah, I just looked over them in more detail 23:48:19 slava: On windows I'd investigate the protocol to work with DWM as well 23:48:45 i'd try Qt first 23:48:54 it doesn't take much to work with DWM though I think 23:48:59 sepi: let me know something if your plugin works :) 23:49:01 as long as you avoid the legacy stuff like DirectDraw 23:49:53 slava: yeah, except GDI is included in the "legacy" part - it would be IMHO more interesting to operate directly on DWM's display trees :) 23:50:22 there's GDI+ now 23:50:25 madnificent: http://stumpwm.antidesktop.net/wiki/awesome-mode-line this is what I currently have. But I guess I'll just create another branch in two weeks. First I'll go on vacation :) 23:50:27 and WPF 23:51:06 sepi: needs a screenshot! 23:51:26 slava: GDI+ goes the same way as GDI, afaik 23:51:38 WPF talks directly to DWM 23:51:57 -!- hohum [n=dcorbe@206.71.169.115] has quit ["leaving"] 23:51:58 (with shared memory, afaik) 23:52:09 jauaor [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 23:54:42 hohum [n=dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:58 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:57:31 -!- a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:57:33 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:43 a-s [n=user@89.122.144.197] has joined #lisp 23:57:57 kpreid: http://hcl-club.lu/~enigma/files/images/stumpwm/aml.png (that's the bug that makes me what to use a toolkit ;) 23:58:51 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-212.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"]