00:06:16 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-181-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:07:07 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 00:07:08 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-jozbkaltvgyeikvp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:07:33 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.227.199] has joined #lisp 00:09:27 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:10:25 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 00:11:57 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:11:57 if deploying a hunchentoot webserver onto a production machine, what's the best way to make it bind to port 80? 00:11:57 there's a few things I'd like to be able to do: 00:11:57 a) not run as root for normal operation 00:11:57 b) still be able to remotely connect to the REPL 00:12:18 cracki_ [n=cracki@134.130.183.101] has joined #lisp 00:13:47 reverse proxy 00:13:49 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@nmd.sbx05662.cuperca.wayport.net] has quit [] 00:13:49 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 00:14:00 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C346.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:14:21 I see. so then the lisp image runs on a different port? 00:14:30 right 00:14:43 do you recommend passing through the SSL to the lisp image still? 00:15:01 you can also handle static content with it 00:16:07 with the reverse proxy? I guess I Could. 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(print 'foo). everything that isn't (def ...) 00:18:42 define 00:18:48 oops 00:18:54 -!- Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:19:04 define "defining anything" 00:19:46 "anything that isn't binding a symbol" would prob be the best way I could put it 00:20:04 non-defining forms? 00:20:15 k, that works 00:20:17 keep in mind that defun and def seems to me like they are macros. 00:20:17 thanks 00:20:32 why do you need it, anyway? 00:20:34 Moe111: k, is defvar a macro? 00:20:41 -!- russell_ [n=russell_@bonneville.tdb.com] has quit ["Client exiting"] 00:20:45 yes 00:20:49 stassats: naming a table in a db 00:20:49 k 00:20:59 clhs defvar 00:20:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm 00:21:03 is there a word for all objects that are not yellow cars? 00:21:03 thanks 00:21:11 you could look-up for yourself 00:21:55 the point about them being macros is that if you expand them, you could possibly see the "defining" behaviour that you're hunting 00:22:05 kk 00:22:07 not exactly sure what you later intend to do with it, but that was my contribution 00:22:17 and don't use "k" 00:22:17 he's asking for a name 00:22:43 egn: Why do you care about 'non-defining forms'? 00:22:50 jsnell: yeah, if there's a simpler term than "non-defining forms" I'll take it, but that'll work 00:23:01 defining form n. a form that has the side-effect of establishing a definition. ``defun and defparameter are defining forms.'' 00:23:08 CL glossary 00:23:20 Zhivago: I'm naming a table in a db, kinda long explanation 00:23:31 lispm: and no definition of "definition" 00:24:23 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 00:24:49 stassats, there are lots of these cases in the glossary 00:25:13 words that are define by words that are not defined 00:25:40 object: any Lisp datum 00:25:46 what is a datum??? 00:26:46 scheme is better, it has formal semantics 00:27:25 if you read its spec R6RS I find it worse than the ANSI CL spec 00:27:37 EVAL for example is completely underspecified 00:27:45 *stassats* uses r5rs 00:27:52 a wise man 00:29:46 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:31:06 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 00:31:25 lispm: by worse, you mean less awesome? :) 00:31:48 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C259.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:31:51 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.227.199] has quit [No route to host] 00:32:53 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:53 luis: in combination with R6RS I would say things that are not appropriate when children are near ;-) 00:33:05 Hmm...F# is pretty interesting, anyone mess with that much? 00:33:25 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:30 some frogs 00:33:37 heh 00:33:59 rvirding [n=chatzill@81.225.116.129] has joined #lisp 00:35:32 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:37:33 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 00:41:25 -!- muzgo [n=none@200.255.103.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:43:56 JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:21 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:45:57 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:01 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:49:00 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 00:51:59 wow, i know someone had asked that i post a blog or something 00:52:17 do it 00:52:23 but i just compiled and installed emacs23 and the new sbcl, no problems whatsoever 00:52:26 in /usr/local 00:52:47 me have no blog, but i'm evaluating blogofile, which takes org-mode for input 00:53:29 write one in lisp 00:55:46 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-190.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:57:50 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit ["Backups are usually a good thing unless it's a sewer."] 01:00:48 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:02:06 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-105-177.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:49 jollygood [n=jollygoo@72.65.139.131] has joined #lisp 01:13:10 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 01:14:34 gonzojive_ [n=red@59.164.0.210] has joined #lisp 01:15:03 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.223.221] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 01:24:16 (Clozure) I've got a Hunchentoot thread hanging on some IO when it should be done, can I manually trigger an sldb backtrace for that thread in SLIME? Waiting for the timeout rather inconveniently unwinds helpful info 01:25:34 C-c C-x t 01:25:44 and d on the desired thread 01:25:45 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:25:53 merci beaucoup stassats 01:26:09 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:17 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 01:29:58 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@2001:6f8:10f6:200:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:36:50 -!- Adlai` is now known as adlai 01:37:26 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["I will see you all later!"] 01:38:24 -!- adlai is now known as Adlai 01:44:24 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:47:29 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 01:48:29 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:10 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:51:55 oh man. that's the tip of the day for me 01:52:17 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:52:20 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 01:53:30 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:57:40 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:03:14 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@72.65.139.131] has quit ["..."] 02:03:46 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:05:28 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:54 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:07:50 adhoc [n=adhoc@ppp121-45-22-244.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:21 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 02:18:18 is there a way to conditionally accumulate a result in mapcar? 02:18:41 use LOOP 02:19:13 or even dolist? 02:19:21 or does loop have a special feature? 02:19:34 dolist doesn't accumulate 02:20:05 that's what I meant. are you saying loop has a "conditionally accumulate this" keyword? 02:20:15 (loop for element in list when it-feels-like collect (+ element 24)) 02:20:28 loop has everything 02:20:45 gotcha. Thanks =) 02:21:20 and learn LOOP 02:21:58 I'm learning lisp altogether =) 02:22:23 so right now, I vaguely know where what lies, but I"m not exactly sure where to look when I need something very specific 02:22:52 story of my life 02:22:57 If extended LOOP is not your thing, the push/nreverse idiom is another option. 02:23:10 Any hunchentoot hackers around? 02:23:24 oh. am working with hunchentoot, but am no hacker .. 02:23:46 rme: I'm happy with what stassats gave me. My thing is above all it being a single liner 02:24:12 anyway, I am fairly sure that r4438 on bknr breaks multipart/form-data requests 02:24:15 will test in a while 02:24:17 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 02:24:44 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:02 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:26:27 rtoym [n=chatzill@24.136.230.181] has joined #lisp 02:27:33 moe: You might be interested in mapcan. 02:28:19 (mapcan (lambda (x) (when (predicate x) (list x))) list) 02:28:34 At least in order to understand this in terms of mapcar. 02:32:44 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@59.164.0.210] has quit [] 02:34:15 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:35:41 confirmed, will send a patch later (to anyone watching) 02:37:03 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:07 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:37:26 rme: there's also the PUSHEND macro, which is better than push/nreverse for long lists 02:39:15 i like push nreverse 02:39:47 i think there was a paper that said that its inconclusive whether keeping a tail pointer is actually faster 02:40:01 like its theoretically faster, but not necessarily actually faster 02:44:54 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 02:46:27 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-105-177.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:46:44 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:46:51 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:47:53 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-181-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:53 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:53 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 02:47:53 konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.176] has joined #lisp 02:47:53 ineiros_ [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 02:47:53 Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-18.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:47:53 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 02:47:53 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 02:47:53 mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #lisp 02:47:53 rlonstein [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:53 cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 02:47:53 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 02:48:37 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@81.225.116.129] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:49:19 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:51:07 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:52:01 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:52:11 it's actually slower in CLISP, actually faster in SBCL 02:52:15 what do you like? ;) 02:52:20 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dqeotkaguztddgpd] has joined #lisp 02:54:12 I'd like a pony. 02:56:16 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:58:39 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:59:04 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:00:46 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:04:43 Would you settle for a chipmunk? 03:04:53 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:07:17 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:40 No. 03:11:38 dysinger [n=dysinger@32.152.195.74] has joined #lisp 03:13:04 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:19:11 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:49 Adlai: for long lists, conses are probably a bad choice. 03:24:14 pkhuong: if the length isn't known at compile time, would you advocate an educated guess and/or :adjustable vectors? 03:25:38 S11001001: right, that's what i'm saying 03:25:49 If you don't need tail sharing and care about performance, I'd use a vector. 03:27:09 vector-push-extend may be good enough depending on your implementation and needs. Otherwise, you could try and handle the growing yourself, or, if pushing speed is very important and you have large inputs, a list of vectors of doubling length (which you can blit to a contiguous vector once you're done pushing) avoids a lot of potentially expensive copies. 03:27:49 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 03:27:56 what are we looking to do with it 03:28:12 if you really care about speed and know what you are getting, preallocate the vector 03:29:22 you could also figure out the length at run time, compile something, and then run it 03:29:31 malsyned [n=malsyned@24-151-107-209.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:29:49 dynamically *compile* the length in? 03:30:06 if you really have to, most of the time it isn't worth it 03:30:28 but lets say you are doing something like looping over the same vector 1,000,000 times 03:30:43 Is it possible to determine whether a symbol names a special variable in the global environment? 03:31:06 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@32.152.195.74] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:31:43 pkhuong: what do you mean exactly by "blit to a contiguous vector"? Do you mean allocating a new vector of appropriate length once you're done growing the vectors, and copying in the elements? 03:33:11 Adlai: right. If generating the elements doesn't take a lot of time and/or you generate a lot of elements, the copy during growing can hurt. 03:35:13 malsyned: try #'boundp 03:35:14 clhs boundp 03:35:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_boundp.htm 03:35:31 pkhuong: ok, thanks for the suggestions. 03:35:53 -!- mogunus [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:36:16 malsyned: boundp specifically won't work for lexical bindings, but you're lucky here because your question was about dynamic bindings. 03:36:36 Adlai: doesn't quite work. You can use the two-arg form of defvar to create a variable that is special but not bound. 03:37:31 names a special variable in the global environment 03:37:50 look for the earmuffs :-P 03:38:09 malsyned: It's implementation dependent. For example, in CCL, you can say (ccl:proclaimed-special-p 'sym). Other implementations will probably have similar functionality. 03:38:32 rme: that's what I'm looking for. Too bad there's no standard for it. 03:38:40 thanks. 03:39:06 malsyned: There was, in CLtL1 03:39:29 pkhuong: interesting. I imagine if I dug I could find the justification for taking it out. 03:40:00 pkhuong: was it called proclaimed-special-p? 03:42:05 hm 03:42:29 this may be naive of me, but can't you check that it isn't a lexical variable 03:42:45 dysinger [n=dysinger@32.152.246.113] has joined #lisp 03:43:02 JAS415: That would work for my purposes too I suppose. How's that done? 03:43:35 well eval is in a null lexical environment, right? 03:44:38 so eval the symbol and see if it signals an error? 03:45:04 that was the thought 03:45:12 can at least test to see if it works 03:46:10 It's an interesting idea. 03:49:24 khisanth_ [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:41 yeah i think that would work 03:50:05 (eval '(boundp 'symbol-name-here)) 03:50:16 tricky thing is 03:50:21 you can declare a lexical special 03:50:34 but i'm not sure if that just turns it into a global or what 03:50:40 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:51:01 -!- khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 03:51:03 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@32.152.246.113] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:51:10 girzel [n=user@61.51.238.174] has joined #lisp 03:53:39 or maybe it is (--catch-the-error, return nil, jump over the t -- (eval 'symbol) t) 03:53:58 although also not portable because of dealing with implementation specific error i would guess 03:54:46 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:01 there are no global lexicals 03:58:57 that's like there are saying no up downs 03:59:46 -!- tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has left #lisp 03:59:48 i was fretting over possible implementation defects 04:00:31 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:24 htk_ [n=htk___@95.65.241.57] has joined #lisp 04:05:52 yeah 04:06:20 (handler-case (eval 'baz) (t () nil)) 04:08:36 nah doesn't work 04:08:45 because it handles too many exceptions 04:08:57 ah well 04:16:11 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177148135.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 04:16:23 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 04:18:01 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit ["off"] 04:18:51 JAS415: plus, depending on what context you're using this, in you might need to worry about the symbol being a symbol macro. 04:19:01 -!- jauaor [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [] 04:19:40 that there could be an epic fail 04:22:18 -!- malsyned [n=malsyned@24-151-107-209.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:23:32 -!- jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit ["leaving"] 04:23:50 jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 04:25:55 is there no boolean equivalent to #'logorc1? 04:28:20 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:30:23 hmm, there isn't, but nvm, because I clearer way to express this conditional. 04:31:27 -!- _8david [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:31:57 _8david [n=user@port-92-195-37-243.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 04:35:40 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-29-170.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 04:38:26 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-181-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:40:14 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[n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:51:18 -!- logBot4694 [n=logBot@59.92.141.63] has quit [Success] 06:01:30 morning 06:02:53 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:04:58 mrSpec [n=Spec@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 06:05:11 hello 06:05:54 morning 06:08:09 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:09:00 GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:20 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:12:22 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:22 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:14:55 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 06:19:02 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:19:21 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joined #lisp 06:33:48 plage [n=user@90-227-107-28-no34.business.telia.com] has joined #lisp 06:33:51 Good morning 06:36:20 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.255] has joined #lisp 06:39:05 -!- aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has quit ["KVIrc 3.2.6 Anomalies http://www.kvirc.net/"] 06:41:58 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1D2C.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:42:18 -!- y44d8h [n=clynt@talula.plus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:44:25 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 06:44:32 Morning plage. 06:44:57 *splittist* is still wondering which hotel for ECLM. 06:47:22 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.255] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:47:51 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:47:53 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:48:16 splittist: this which have more stars :P 06:48:38 good morning 06:48:44 morning ;) 06:49:36 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:49:51 mrSpec: sometimes I consider just taking a camping kit and illegally camping on the roofs :P 06:50:04 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest33676 06:50:15 hello mvilleneuve 06:51:16 p_l: camping during ECLM? 06:52:15 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.255] has joined #lisp 06:52:26 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 06:52:34 mrSpec: nope, not going 06:53:04 I wanted to, but I don't have enough spendable funds :/ 06:53:14 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-35-240-122.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 06:54:12 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Client Quit] 06:54:21 ah :S 06:55:19 mrSpec: I'm not made of stars (:j 06:55:46 anyway, camping in the city could be interesting :D 06:56:08 -!- Guest33676 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 06:56:44 setheus_ [n=setheus@pool-173-74-124-37.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:56:44 I heard once from some guys how they went for some kind of festival in Netherlands and deep in the night stopped at the first patch of green they found and setup a camp... 06:57:18 in the morning they noticed it was a roundabout (if that's how it's called...) :-) 06:58:00 HG` [n=HG@xdslel094.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:58:15 haha, nice place ;) 06:58:59 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-127-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:57 yeah 07:04:05 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:07:13 -!- setheus [n=setheus@pool-173-74-124-37.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:08:22 If I have loop like: (loop for n from 1 to 5 maximize (mod (1+ n) 5) can I return 2 values? n and the maximum ( 3 and 4)? 07:08:57 is any loop keyword for this? 07:10:48 fiveop [n=fiveop@92.229.111.1] has joined #lisp 07:12:16 and [n=and@studbud.com.ua] has joined #lisp 07:12:18 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 07:13:24 -!- and [n=and@studbud.com.ua] has quit [Client Quit] 07:13:36 mrSpec: maximizing ... into var1 finally (progn ... var1) 07:14:47 lharc: that won't work; you need to explicitly call RETURN when you use :finally 07:15:16 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:16:01 uman [n=uman@unaffiliated/uman] has joined #lisp 07:17:12 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcx168.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:17:34 AllenTech [n=akalong5@203.187.184.118] has joined #lisp 07:18:28 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:18:39 Adlai: could you say how to call it? 07:18:56 ln5 [n=Adium@192.36.125.218] has joined #lisp 07:19:01 fxr_ [n=fxr_@95.65.241.57] has joined #lisp 07:19:14 mrSpec: (loop ... finally (return )) 07:20:45 ok, I can return var1 into which I'm maximizing 07:20:59 but I cant return "n" 07:21:44 What extension should I give to Scheme source files? 07:21:54 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 07:21:55 like .c for C, .cpp for C++, .cs for c-sharp... what for scheme? 07:22:34 mrSpec: if you put (return n), you would end up with whatever value N last had. 07:22:41 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 07:22:52 Ogedei [n=user@e178210103.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:23:25 -!- benny` is now known as benny 07:23:29 yeah, but I dont want end up with last value, I'd like with value for which function give me maximum result. 07:23:54 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 07:24:10 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 07:24:24 current slime head writes tons of swank communication junk to my *inferior-lisp* buffer and is constantly erroring out on a "Illegal keyword given: :quet" 07:24:29 is there a 'stable' version somewhere? 07:24:55 -!- plage [n=user@90-227-107-28-no34.business.telia.com] has left #lisp 07:25:45 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@ip72-219-189-201.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [] 07:25:52 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.129.223] has quit [] 07:26:13 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.129.223] has joined #lisp 07:26:53 uman: Common Lisp usually uses .lisp (some old systems use .cl or .lsp), Scheme implementations usually go with *.scm afaik 07:27:08 uman: #scheme might know more, this channel is 99% Common Lisp :) 07:27:24 p_l: right, thanks 07:29:05 mrSpec: ok, so combine what lharc and I suggested: (loop ... :maximizing :into results :finally (return results)) 07:29:38 [I retract the above swank bug report, the :quet doesn't seem to come from Swank] 07:30:38 ok, thanks 07:33:59 cracki [n=cracki@46-214.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:33:59 prg_ [n=prg@91.214.124.1] has joined #lisp 07:36:00 -!- [df] [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has quit ["leaving"] 07:37:13 jd8hh57 [n=mickey@host217-34-51-26.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 07:37:41 -!- jd8hh57 [n=mickey@host217-34-51-26.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has left #lisp 07:38:04 Grey_Fox [n=chatzill@ppp118-208-141-225.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:17 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 07:38:28 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:40:26 good morning 07:40:44 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcx168.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:40:56 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 07:44:44 -!- ln5 [n=Adium@192.36.125.218] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:45:13 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:48:12 sellout [n=greg@62.218.228.5] has joined #lisp 07:51:11 ln5 [n=Adium@nordutug-gw.nordu.net] has joined #lisp 07:52:03 -!- sellout [n=greg@62.218.228.5] has quit [Client Quit] 07:53:05 Baconizer [n=Baconize@unaffiliated/baconizer] has joined #lisp 07:58:54 sellout [n=greg@62.218.228.5] has joined #lisp 07:59:35 girzel [n=user@61.51.238.174] has joined #lisp 08:02:01 Davidbrcz [n=david@81.53.250.233] has joined #lisp 08:09:46 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined 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[n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:52:40 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 08:53:20 I'm having some trougbe parsimg MathML into Lisp Sexp 08:53:28 troube 08:54:24 The translation is mostrly straight forward 08:55:24 And the simplification can be got from Norvig PAIP 08:56:57 mg4001 [n=mg4001@cpe-76-93-28-217.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:57:08 -!- mg4001 [n=mg4001@cpe-76-93-28-217.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 08:57:26 Oddly the main probem seems to be that the list's are not pure. 08:58:07 tat is ('one . 'two) vs (list 'one 'two) 08:58:28 that 08:58:34 -!- AllenTech [n=akalong5@203.187.184.118] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:59:17 AllenTech [n=akalong5@203.187.184.118] has joined #lisp 08:59:19 danlei [n=user@pD954F5F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:57 Yeah, It's the usual Axiom bit 09:02:14 est: what is a pure list? 09:02:26 cadabra [n=cadabra@adsl-69-107-138-3.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:26 Get back to you later when I better undersand the problem 09:02:37 understand 09:02:47 Perhaps you could avoid writing on irc until you understand your problem too... 09:03:04 a assoc is a impure list 09:03:09 est: a simple buffer in your editor would do as well... 09:03:19 ASSOC is a symbol. 09:03:19 ? 09:03:36 Do not use irc as a scratch buffer! 09:03:51 est: you're thinking of "proper" lists, maybe? 09:03:59 assoc creates list's of key value tuples on the form (key . value) 09:04:18 as opposed to '( key value) 09:04:29 ASSOC is a symbol that is fbound to a function that does not create anything. 09:05:18 jan247_ [n=jan247@222.127.90.27] has joined #lisp 09:05:23 est: you are writing random stuff. keep in mind that 200+ people are reading your random thoughts... formulate a question, opinion or whatever first, and then write it here 09:05:31 The point is assoc breakes my parsing algorithm 09:05:54 est: read the following reference: 09:05:55 clhs assoc 09:05:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_assocc.htm 09:06:35 Just frustrated that's all. 09:06:43 matimago: even though what you say is correct, you did get his point, didn't you? 09:07:19 Of course, but we're trying to make him think straight. 09:07:20 est: read my previous message 4 minutes ago and comment it. 09:08:09 matimago: I'd then rather tell him that all lists are pure because they do no side effect 09:08:54 Axioplase: a -> b -> c -> nil is a proper list 09:09:20 est: a-lists are proper lists too. 09:09:39 no, they are tree's 09:09:43 ((a . 1) (b . 2) (c . 3)) is of the same form as what you write as a -> b -> c -> nil. 09:09:46 a->b->c->nil is a type ^^ 09:09:55 ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 09:10:20 Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 09:10:42 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:11:10 That was supposed to be a visual representationin of (cons 'a (cons 'b (cons 'c nil)))) 09:11:55 and ((a . 1) (b . 2) (c . 3)) can built by (cons '(a . 1) (cons '(b . 2) (cons '(c . 3) nil))) which has the same form as your expression, therefore produce the same kind of results. 09:12:05 est: look at the *official* definition of a list: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_l.htm#list 09:12:19 and http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_l.htm#proper_list 09:12:42 and http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_p.htm#proper_list I mean. 09:12:48 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.255] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:12:58 *hint* the answer to your torments regarding the current behaviour of ours is on this page. 09:13:16 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 09:14:18 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@124.6.184.166] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:17:04 dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-134-120.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:07 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.255] has joined #lisp 09:19:01 By the way, is '(1 #1=(2 #1#) 3) circular? It's a chain that terminates, but it contains a chain that doesn't 09:19:16 OK. Axiom now parses mathML 09:19:26 The toplevel list is not circular, but the second element is a circular list. 09:19:36 Globally, the structure is circular. 09:20:14 But it could portably be passed to functions such as mapcar or find, since they wouldn't walk the elements, only the toplevel list. 09:21:14 -!- girzel [n=user@61.51.238.174] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:21:33 I took another algorithm from PAIP where one iteraror goes twice the speed of the other to detect circular behaviour 09:21:59 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:00 -!- Grey_Fox [n=chatzill@ppp118-208-141-225.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:23:35 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:23:52 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32E42A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:44 matimago: yeah. The hyperspec could be more exlplicit, because of "chain"'s undefined meaning (as I consider that (cons (cons (cons ))) is a "chain of conses") 09:26:03 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 09:26:53 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:27:38 It took me a while to figure out it was cykeling. 09:29:04 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@81.53.250.233] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:29:10 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:30:50 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-80-233.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:31:55 -!- AllenTech [n=akalong5@203.187.184.118] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:36:57 lispm [n=joswig@e177148135.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:37:11 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-80-233.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:41:11 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 09:42:14 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:42:32 minion: memo for Xach: Europeans get up earlier ;-) 09:42:32 Remembered. I'll tell Xach when he/she/it next speaks. 09:42:48 minion: thanks! 09:42:48 you're welcome 09:43:41 Earlier than what? 09:43:41 Xach, memo from lispm: Europeans get up earlier ;-) 09:43:56 Oh, you stackoverflow overachiever! 09:44:00 And since the World belongs to those who get up early, the World belongs to Europeans! :-) 09:44:04 haha 09:44:31 Unfortunately it's circular 09:44:44 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 09:44:53 hello 09:45:01 though I haven't answered the CAR/CDR question yet 09:45:59 hi attila_lendvai 09:46:04 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 09:46:24 the meeting where I presented the dwim-based application went extremely well ... 09:46:32 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 09:46:34 dwim? 09:46:39 cl-dwim 09:46:51 minion: tell lispm about cl-dwim 09:46:51 lispm: look at cl-dwim: cl-dwim is something like what people call an application server when it comes in other languages. http://www.cliki.net/cl-dwim 09:47:41 kami-: cool. Any other details? Unexpected questions? 09:48:04 a, dwim in the context of Lisp is often 'do whart i mean', the command line enhancement used in Interlisp 09:48:43 cl-dwim is an application server thingy 09:48:59 any presentation material to share? 09:49:25 interlisp? Isn't that long dead? 09:49:29 splittist: no, they found it great to have a list and detail view for everything and were happy even with the standard-inspectors (with selected slots for each entity), 09:50:05 est: sure, but dwim is in the literature widely referenced 09:50:10 and what they liked most was the navigational capabilities (I mean the hyperlinks to related instances) 09:51:10 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:51:52 I only made the mistake to tell them earlier, that dwim has process capabilities built-in (which it has), but haven't prepared the corresponding part of the show :) 09:51:57 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C95D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:52:17 benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-121-222-151-199.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:52:40 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:54:07 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:54:43 kami-: so you're setting up the sequel! 09:54:50 Well I like CAPI. 09:55:54 It's still best GUI lib out there! 09:56:07 splittist: I sold them the prototype (literally :) and will have to deliver some additional things and iron out some usability issues 10:01:18 I never sell prototypes.. 10:02:50 kami-: is there any good documentation on cl-dwim other than source? 10:03:00 or at least example app... 10:03:37 -!- benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-121-222-151-199.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:03:38 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:05:43 kami-: thats great! 10:06:01 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 10:08:42 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host61-171-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:11:01 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:13:18 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@adsl-69-107-138-3.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:14:12 p_l: unfortunately, no. But, I've kept a log of my chats with attila_lendvai and questions which arose during development. I will write up something on it. 10:14:39 yay! 10:14:52 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:19:00 -!- michaelw_ is now known as michaelw 10:20:33 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:21:38 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:25:47 fgtech [n=federico@host61-171-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:28:16 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-205.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:29:19 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-205.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 10:29:41 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-205.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:31:17 Is it possible to do something like: (setq foo (format t "~r" 5)) => foo = "five" without macros? 10:32:54 plan9 [n=stian@arachnotron.sletner.com] has joined #lisp 10:35:44 mrSpec: format nil? 10:35:55 Grey_Fox [n=chatzill@ppp118-208-141-225.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:11 so simply... 10:36:14 thanks drafael ;) 10:36:47 :) 10:40:23 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:52:16 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:52:43 Reav___ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:58:35 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@95.65.241.57] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 11:00:02 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 11:03:44 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:07:04 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:11:03 benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-121-222-151-199.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:11:35 -!- benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-121-222-151-199.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:11:53 benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-121-222-151-199.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:18:22 -!- huangjs [n=user@192.51.54.129] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:24:19 I'm looking for a package to connect to SQL server - which do you recommend? 11:24:59 cl-sql for example 11:25:26 thanks. unixodbc needed? 11:25:38 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:26:13 http://clsql.b9.com/platforms.html 11:26:15 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:27:32 lispm: I'll have a read thanks. Was thinking plain-odbc or YstokSQL; clsql is worth a read 11:28:14 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:30:17 and it installs via asdf... excellent 11:31:38 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dqeotkaguztddgpd] has left #lisp 11:32:28 lispm: thanks. Off to try this - goodnight! 11:32:45 goodnight, 13:32 here ;-) 11:33:08 Fri Aug 21 11:33:07 UTC 2009 11:33:10 :-) 11:33:17 cheers - 21:30 in Australia 11:33:36 don't fall, you are on the other side! 11:34:14 yep - and spring is nearly over... 11:34:32 spring, wow 11:36:14 ah ok sorry - my wife just tells me _winter_ is nearly over... sorry! 11:36:21 benbos67: we wrote cl-rdbms after using clsql for half a year. but it's pretty much postgres-only, although there's an sqlite and a 80% oracle OCI backend 11:36:41 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:37:58 attila: I'll have a look at it. I'm new to lisp as you would have guessed :) Thanks for all your help. 11:38:14 goodnight :) 11:38:18 -!- benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-121-222-151-199.qld.bigpond.net.au] has left #lisp 11:39:01 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6FFF3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 11:39:22 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:59 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:42:01 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 11:55:49 joswig [n=joswig@e177148135.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:55:49 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177148135.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:57:49 jao [n=jao@31.Red-83-33-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:56 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:00:42 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:03:04 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined 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chris2_ [n=chris@dslb-094-216-076-116.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:14 -!- chris2_ is now known as chris2 13:53:15 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:53:53 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 13:54:53 weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:56:00 hey anyone playing bratwurst? 13:56:06 what? 13:56:14 http://lispgamesdev.blogspot.com/2009/08/netplay-video-of-common-lisp-bratwurst.html 13:57:58 dto is 13:58:04 dto, meow 13:58:13 or maybe he's sleeping 13:58:39 hmm, using SDL? :) 13:58:45 yes 13:58:45 hi weirdo 13:58:58 dto, hey wanna play bratwurst after i compile it? :) 13:59:11 hmm, possibly in a little while. my friend is coming over very soon 13:59:16 i can't open a server here btw 13:59:16 ok :) 13:59:18 weirdo's just looking to build his self-esteem with a chump player 13:59:20 so you will haev to 13:59:21 :) 13:59:31 sure, i have external ip 13:59:39 clearly, someone will have to write cl-upnp 13:59:45 i'm working on a "cellular automata" replicating spores and pollen level for my game 13:59:48 wtf liblispbuilder-sdl-ttf-glue.so 14:00:00 it should be a someone with an extremely high tolerance for annoying things, of course :) 14:01:07 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:01:46 oh bugger 14:01:58 weirdo pasted "bratwurst failage" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85806 14:02:33 weirdo: contact sabetts when he's back on 14:02:46 i just used the latest linux binary. 14:02:55 he says it's a pain to compile. check the Downloads section on his github 14:03:26 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:03:58 ok this one was simple, but now it's a memory fault at 0x20 14:04:39 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:05:33 the other option is to buy an amiga 14:05:37 :) 14:05:51 weirdo: we should have a bratwurst compo 14:07:06 i can't run the binary either, it complains about not having libsdl-gfx despite it sitting in /usr/lib 14:07:30 dto, sounds great :) 14:08:06 weirdo: is it possible that it's the wrong arch? 14:08:10 32bit/64bit 14:09:45 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 14:10:40 *Krystof* cries 14:10:42 bugs bugs bugs 14:11:23 Ogedei [n=user@e178205075.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:12:10 why did I volunteer to do a release? 14:12:11 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E46AB8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:50 not busy enough on other things 14:13:11 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-39.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:13:21 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:28 interesting hypothesis there 14:14:22 if the commit message ends up being along the lines of "oy4noidsafy284687364yoq827yrcn8o7yfnc", then either I have finally flipped or my daughter (who has recently discovered the joy of keyboards) will have taken charge 14:15:22 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.255] has quit ["off"] 14:15:34 most people use cats for their garbled nonsense typing :) 14:15:43 *Xach* thought that was a sha1 digest 14:16:30 *stassats* just sleeps on the keyboard 14:16:50 rsynnott, right 14:17:09 there's no amd64 binary.. i wonder if there's sdl-gfx for ia32 on debian amd64 14:17:33 there's not 14:17:35 it might be an sha1 digest as currently computed by sbcl's x86 pointer arithmetic 14:18:06 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:18:07 weirdo: really? You can probably apt install one 14:19:04 scottmaccal1 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 14:19:13 -!- scottmaccal1 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:19:20 scottmaccal1 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 14:19:28 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:21:59 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:22:26 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:22:43 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:23:55 rsynnott, there's ia32-libs-sdl but it doesn't do the right thing 14:30:30 geltoob [n=JLP@71.92.98.86] has joined #lisp 14:32:09 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 14:32:19 -!- geltoob [n=JLP@71.92.98.86] has left #lisp 14:38:42 -!- jan247_ [n=jan247@222.127.90.27] has quit [] 14:38:48 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host61-171-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:40:19 AllenTech [n=akalong5@125.39.68.228] has joined #lisp 14:44:25 Krystof: looks like confusion in the VOPs 14:45:12 yes, I have a fix 14:45:18 I have convinced myself that the code was wrong, not me 14:45:22 x86 counts in element-wide offsets, but not x86-64. 14:45:51 the hard part was working out why there were no visible symptoms 14:45:53 I wonder how that happened 14:46:21 the foo-ref-with-offset stuff is _mostly_ used for element access where the offset is per-element 14:46:28 aref, bignum-ref and so on 14:46:36 sap-refs are different; the offset is always in bytes 14:47:06 an offset of 0 obviously works however wrong the code is 14:47:33 so you only get symptoms when you have code of the form (sap-ref-16 sap (+ )) 14:47:47 That, or (sap-ref-foo sap [constant]). 14:48:28 hmm programming lisp is hard. it's not so much actual writing, but figuring out what the best protocol would be 14:49:41 pkhuong: no, that goes through a different vop 14:50:33 or rather, there the [constant] is an immediate offset, which is handled correctly 14:50:44 I think 14:51:32 Xof: oh, right, only disp gets multiplied, and (+ constant constant) will hopefully be constant folded first. 14:51:38 exactly 14:53:26 the one thing I don't really understand is why the out-of-line definition of sap-ref-64 isn't affected 14:53:35 because that definitely has a (+ offset 4) in it 14:53:35 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 14:54:09 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-96-75.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:44 oh, maybe because the offset range is too large 14:55:08 offset is declared as fixnum, so (+ offset 4) isn't necessarily 14:56:28 and of course sap-ref-8 was right all along 14:56:36 Would it transform on a (mod (+ offset 4) (ash 1 32)) ? 14:57:14 I'm not sure. There's some complicated logic about how big constants are allowed to be 14:57:47 that (constant-displacement 0 8 0) stuff 14:58:02 which isn't needed now that we don't scale disp. 14:58:04 Hun [n=Hun@p4FD3FC1D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:20 well, it's still needed for all the aref-with-offset variants 14:58:25 but yes, it's always the same for saps 14:58:56 "I know, I'll implement UTF-16; that'll be a piece of cake" 15:00:48 -!- cracki [n=cracki@46-214.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 15:00:51 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C95D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:01:13 Xof: do you see any problem with implementing array access via SAP refs? 15:02:19 azuk`` [i=azure@s2.org] has joined #lisp 15:02:22 for the purpose of making it a bit more OAOO? 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error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:03:47 S1100100` [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 15:03:49 -!- rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:03:51 Xof: and potentially easier transformations later. 15:04:04 luis [n=user@r42.eu] has joined #lisp 15:04:15 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 15:04:28 of course, I just said that I thought implementing utf-16 would be a piece of cake 15:04:36 -!- scottmaccal1 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Success] 15:04:39 and I haven't yet begun the necessary untangling of bits of fd-streams I need 15:04:40 scottmaccal2 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 15:05:26 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:05:29 schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 15:07:06 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:08:50 *kpreid* thinks that sbcl should separate external-format algorithms from fd-stream internals 15:09:45 -!- Ogedei [n=user@e178205075.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:09:45 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:09:54 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 15:10:01 Ogedei [n=user@e178205075.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:10:02 scottmaccal1 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 15:10:04 jonphilp_ [n=user@office4.tmcs.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:13 -!- PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:10:16 Hun` [n=Hun@p4FD3FC1D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:23 PissedNumlock [n=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 15:10:31 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:10:54 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 15:11:03 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@adsl-75-34-100-218.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Success] 15:11:17 alexbobp [n=alex@adsl-75-34-100-218.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:52 'morning 15:13:52 lispm [n=joswig@e177148135.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:14:09 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:14:34 MORNING 15:17:38 OMG MORNING TO YOU TOO 15:18:02 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 15:18:22 -!- prg_ [n=prg@91.214.124.1] has quit ["leaving"] 15:18:42 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:18:55 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:05 what, luis just evalled Fade's repl input... 15:19:13 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Success] 15:19:38 kpreid: well, yes, absolutely 15:19:44 I look forward to it 15:19:58 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:20:02 morning ; with *print-case* set to :downcase 15:20:30 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:20:30 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:21:11 dto` [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:03 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-32.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:22:21 -!- scottmaccal2 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:24:27 -!- jonphilpott [n=user@office4.tmcs.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:24:39 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p4FD3FC1D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:24:46 -!- Hun` is now known as Hun 15:25:27 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:26:11 :afternoon 15:26:34 -!- dto` is now known as dto 15:27:06 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [No route to host] 15:28:29 robyonrails [n=roby@host183-218-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:29:47 cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has joined #lisp 15:31:09 manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6E87D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:55 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:34:46 hi, I'm using sb-bsd-sockets, when i try to close a socket i get the error in sldb (Socket error in "recvfrom": EBADF (Bad file descriptor) \n [Condition of type BAD-FILE-DESCRIPTOR-ERROR]). i've tried to read 'man 2 recvfrom', but couldn't find related thing which may cause such errors? by the way when a client connect i add file handlers for event-serving. I've read both related sections from sbcl and cmucl, but nothing pointing to a 15:34:47 direction. any comments, hints, links? 15:35:18 post your code? 15:35:33 http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp 15:35:36 no, I'll do it, gimme a sec 15:35:51 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 15:36:44 you're giving it an integer that isn't a currently open file descriptor 15:37:47 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 15:40:26 cmo-0 pasted "sb-bsd-sockets" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85813 15:40:57 cmo-0: i don't know anything about serve event, but you'd get that error if you had a handler that kept trying to read data after a socket is closed, i.e. it doesn't unregister or disable itself correctly. 15:42:18 Xach: this is the case, but How to close a socket cleanly (if its okay to say such term)?. 15:43:02 use unwind-protect /guess 15:43:05 brill [n=brill@0x5da22faa.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.hrnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:43:55 cmo-0: Sometimes I have found that you need to be sure that the object holding the socket gets cleared, say by setting it to nil. 15:44:20 Anyone knows the best setup when using sbcl and a mac? 15:44:38 brill: can you clarify? x86 mac? 15:44:42 Yes 15:44:44 if you tried the code, then telnet and then write too much from there will be dissconnected but sldb will show up. 15:45:03 slime/aquamacs works for me on my leopard machine. 15:45:12 brill: There's a binary package for the newest version, all you do is run the setup.sh inside it as super user, and it'll install where needed. 15:45:38 brill: For sbcl, that is..and you can run sbcl like you would from linux as normal. 15:45:46 i use clbuild which is a bit more inside the lisp mainstream than the prepackaged bins. 15:45:46 TDT: Do you have a link? 15:45:48 brill: I get the binary from the download and the source and build the source with the features that I want (sb-threads, in particular). This is sbcl. 15:46:10 cmo-0: http://xach.livejournal.com/74130.html is the problem i was having. it doesn't look similar to yours. 15:46:31 brill: Not offhand, just go to the sbcl site, go to their chart, and click on the OSX x86 grid item and it'll download from sourceforge 15:46:55 brill: It'll extract, go in a terminal, run the setup and boom all done. 15:46:59 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:47:04 Thanks all. 15:47:14 I'll go download... 15:47:24 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:47:43 I also use cbuild, but on the mac you will need a reasonably up-to-date macports, which is quite easy to do as well. 15:48:24 dysinger [n=dysinger@32.152.8.241] has joined #lisp 15:48:27 macports..I hate macports, haha. 15:48:43 everybody hates macports, but it is the best option on a mac. :P 15:48:52 I tend to run linux through VMWare, and sbcl through that and use remote deugging through carbon emacs. 15:49:12 Well..the setup I have now for development took a lot of iterations to get there, but is really nice. 15:49:28 I don't hate macports. I even find it works better than Fink. 15:49:39 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6FFF3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 15:49:53 It's better than fink, but I've had package issues trying to build stuff, or update the entire system at once. 15:49:54 fink was a nice idea, and the one I tried first, but it wasn't really maintained that well the last time I looked. 15:50:12 TDT: never had such problems with macports. 15:50:50 And I use macports on both a powerpc mac and an intel mac... 15:51:03 More reading sbcl manual, says if you have a stream to the socket then, use close on the stream, rather than socket-close on the socket. but, still the same thing error shows up. 15:51:21 It's been a few years since I used macports lately..but yeah, not sure, maybe it improved since then. 15:51:43 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-4-206.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:52:14 More/Moreover 15:53:08 adhoc_ [n=adhoc@ppp121-45-31-70.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:19 -!- ln5 [n=Adium@nordutug-gw.nordu.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:53:41 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-bliucuxebtrlnibh] has quit [] 15:55:13 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:22 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:58:09 jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-62-167.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:00:06 fgtech [n=federico@host61-171-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:00:23 Hello there all... I'm planning on using cons cells to store 2d coordinates in... Firstly, any better ideas? 16:01:23 objects of your own class? 16:01:28 structs? 16:01:34 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:02:22 Well, what about just defining methods for the cons class? (If that's possible) 16:02:41 only for all cons cells 16:02:47 Depending on the operations, complex (floats) might make sense. 16:04:23 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:04:43 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:05:10 Thanks :) 16:05:38 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:05:54 -!- adhoc [n=adhoc@ppp121-45-22-244.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:07:31 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 16:07:58 jauaor [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 16:14:33 rswarbrick [n=user@81.155.214.213] has joined #lisp 16:16:14 gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:45 -!- gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:16:51 gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:52 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:22:43 devinus [n=devin@65.90.212.30] has joined #lisp 16:23:04 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:23:37 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:24:06 what's the best CL interpreter/compiler? 16:24:30 devinus: what's the best C interpreter/compiler? 16:24:35 gcc 16:24:40 the question isn't bounded enough to infer any meaning. 16:24:46 not for fast intel code 16:25:01 haha i'm kidding 16:25:01 gonzojive_ [n=red@122.163.201.254] has joined #lisp 16:25:02 thing is 16:25:06 i've taken a look at sbcl 16:25:09 SBCL is best, because it's mentioned first in the topic 16:25:14 but all i hear about is how it's "being replaced" 16:25:18 woo topic precedence 16:25:21 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1880.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:25:26 -!- AllenTech [n=akalong5@125.39.68.228] has quit [] 16:25:28 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-45.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:25:29 devinus: from whom are you hearing this? 16:25:37 devinus: sbcl competitors? :) 16:25:39 dlowe: clojure enthusiasts 16:25:54 devinus: it's in their interest to convince others, isn't it 16:26:19 is there a CL impl that's perhaps JITed? or not compiled but also not interpretted, at least a fast VM? 16:26:26 devinus: abcl 16:26:54 I will continue to prefer sbcl. 16:27:09 dlowe: oh god no, it's not my intention to use the JVM thus i'm here instead of #clojure 16:27:12 dlowe: but, but, some guy somewhere says it's "being replaced"!!1! 16:27:23 I like SBCL, but i don't know enough lisp to rank it 16:27:59 devinus: why the need for an intermediate representation? 16:28:20 dlowe: i don't like compiling 16:28:27 devinus: clisp uses a byte-code compiler. You may not like the license terms, though. 16:28:41 devinus: but, Ahead-of-Time compilation is hip nowadays! 16:28:45 devinus: good thing you have a computer to do it for you 16:28:57 devinus: sbcl programs are astonishingly fast, so why would you need a jit? 16:28:57 hippee-lee [n=hippee-l@97-124-158-228.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:27 The sbcl compiler is fast enough that people aren't aware that it's used at the repl 16:30:49 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-140.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 16:31:06 devinus: good luck in your search. I kinda think what you're looking for is ill-specified and doesn't actually exist. 16:31:28 -!- drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:31:40 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:32:19 hippee-lee` [n=hippee-l@97-124-158-228.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:59 -!- hippee-lee` [n=hippee-l@97-124-158-228.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:33:15 devinus: why do you dislike compiling (just a short argument, if you'll byte) 16:33:58 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-29-170.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:34:26 s/byte/bite 16:34:35 am I totally misformed?! 16:34:37 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:34:55 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:56 hippee-lee` [n=hippee-l@97-124-158-228.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:57 legumbre_ [n=user@190.135.50.95] has joined #lisp 16:36:24 compiling is a good excuse for slacking 16:37:52 devinus: clojure is also compiled, no? :) 16:37:53 devinus: why the hell wouldn't anyone want a compiler? 16:37:58 -!- hippee-lee` [n=hippee-l@97-124-158-228.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:38:01 and yes, clojure is compiled as well 16:38:03 compiled and then JITed, even :) 16:38:16 hippee-lee` [n=hippee-l@97-124-158-228.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:23 it's compiled at least to the point where Java decompilers crash on it 16:38:32 or output garbage ;-) 16:38:54 It uses opcodes not used by Java? 16:39:20 Elench: yeah 16:39:35 interesting, thanks 16:39:36 JVM has much more opcodes or functionality than Java supports, apparently 16:40:26 for example, a form of TCO is done similarly to Scheme interpreter in PAIP, with gotos 16:40:57 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@122.163.201.254] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:41:45 cracki [n=cracki@134.130.183.101] has joined #lisp 16:42:24 benny [n=benny@i577A1880.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:43:30 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ziafrkoyfwjugyuw] has joined #lisp 16:43:40 drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:09 anyone using hunchentoot to serve web sites in the wild? i'm interested in hearing experiences.. 16:47:12 Xach is probably your man, if he's in 16:47:26 -!- hippee-lee [n=hippee-l@97-124-158-228.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:47:28 <_8david> I never needed special opcodes to trigger bugs in Java decompilers. It is the structure of the bytecode which usually foils them in my experience., not any individual instruction. 16:47:42 what did i ...what? hello? 16:47:58 -!- cracki [n=cracki@134.130.183.101] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 16:48:01 <_8david> BICBW about Clojure's class files and what's difficult about them in particular. Never looked at them. 16:48:02 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 16:49:02 Xach: just wondered if you knew of any gotchas, etc with hosting a site with hunchentoot. 16:49:08 -!- jonphilp_ is now known as jonphilpott 16:49:16 _8david: afaik jumps as in "pure goto" are completely non-translatable into java ;) 16:49:27 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 16:49:37 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 16:49:39 gonzojive_ [n=red@122.161.6.177] has joined #lisp 16:49:45 stassats: The problem is that these days compilers are too fast. 16:49:56 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:50:26 wgl: that's why nice(1) got a new function in modern world 16:50:33 wgl: you feed them too small programs then 16:50:48 jonphilpott: i use tbnl, hunchentoot's predecessor. it works well for me. i used clsql to track products, users, and orders in a database. it was stable. 16:51:20 -!- brill [n=brill@0x5da22faa.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.hrnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:51:28 jonphilpott: ask anyone who runs weblocks, it uses Hunchentoot as well 16:51:33 jonphilpott: with my application loaded the memory impact about 100 megabytes. i have it on a dual core athlon and the load is nil. 16:51:54 Xach: is there a specific reason for running tbnl vs hunchentoot 16:52:01 Well, my full system takes only a several minutes to compile. Perhaps I should add a bunch more code? 16:52:14 jonphilpott: when i wrote my app, hunchentoot did not exist. i saw no compelling reason to upgrade. 16:52:34 jonphilpott: for new sites i've used hunchentoot. they have less traffic but still work fine. 16:52:36 i use hunchentoot with 5 visitors per month (two of them being myself), works well 16:52:40 http://l1sp.org/ for example 16:52:52 cool, and ill assume youre using sbcl :) 16:52:52 tbnl powers http://wigflip.com/ 16:53:00 yeah. sbcl on x86-64 linux. 16:53:18 *stassats* uses Clozure CL 16:53:29 are you starting sbcl with --dynamic-space-size ? 16:54:09 no. 16:54:23 i have a xen instance for hosting.. 380mb of ram, 2gb swap. (i intend to upgrade if traffic demands it.) 16:54:35 using lighttpd for static content & proxying. 16:54:54 i use nginx for that 16:54:58 cracki [n=cracki@134.130.183.101] has joined #lisp 16:55:18 logBot7507 [n=logBot@59.96.44.30] has joined #lisp 16:55:28 <_8david> p_l: yes, but that doesn't mean pure java doesn't translate into `goto' opcodes. It not the existence of the instruction in the bytecode as such causing issues for decompilers, it's the structure of the CFG that is (or is not) an issue. 16:55:57 detachtty is useful for starting it 16:56:09 (some like Screen) 16:56:27 chris2_ [n=chris@dslb-094-216-076-116.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:34 jonphilpott: http://learningtouch.com/ is served via hunchentoot running on CCL. It's very simple. 16:56:55 _8david: well, I don't know enough about JVM opcodes to understand it, but I wouldn't be all that surprised if they tried to eliminate many jump-like instructions ;-) 16:57:46 rme: thanks 16:57:54 rme: hah. i saw andrew demo an early version of that and wondered if it ever became a real app... 16:59:13 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@122.161.6.177] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:59:54 Xach: nginx looks cool, thanks. 17:00:09 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-62-167.iburst.co.za] has left #lisp 17:00:15 jonphilpott: i'm sure almost anything will be pretty decent. i just found nginx easy to set up and configure. 17:01:22 i'm planning two deployments on nginx. I think it's a good option. 17:02:03 nginx has no cgi, i use cgi for gitweb 17:02:06 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:02:55 looks pretty cool, i didnt know about it before today. 17:02:55 I use nginx as a frontend, and an apache for awkard things which demand cgi or whatever 17:03:38 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:47 well, there is hunchentoot-cgi 17:04:33 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-076-116.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:05:46 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:17 gonzojive_ [n=red@122.163.195.57] has joined #lisp 17:06:45 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:07:22 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:10:53 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host61-171-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:11:08 -!- logBot7507 [n=logBot@59.96.44.30] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:11:38 xach: have you done such a setup that requires authentication? Was thinking of doing a site requiring logins. 17:12:29 -!- devinus [n=devin@65.90.212.30] has left #lisp 17:12:30 logBot1589 [n=logBot@59.96.44.30] has joined #lisp 17:13:00 wgl: not yet. a few months ago i thought i was going to, so i bought a real ssl certificate, and configured it with nginx+hunchentoot, and it worked fine. but i haven't actually used it. 17:13:29 -!- logBot1589 [n=logBot@59.96.44.30] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:13:48 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:59 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:07 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp118-208-134-120.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:17:08 hi, is there a trivial way to edit this to return the list of forms in strings? I need to preserve case. http://paste.lisp.org/display/85818 17:17:15 as strings* 17:17:39 serichse1 [n=harleqin@81.173.158.194] has joined #lisp 17:17:43 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-154-253.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:18:52 clhs princ-to-string 17:18:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_to_.htm 17:19:04 egn: the case of what? 17:19:26 Xach: sorry, the case of the forms of the file I'm reading 17:19:32 and no need to collect y into x finally (return x) 17:19:37 just collect y 17:19:49 stassats: thanks 17:19:54 <_3b> do you want to intern a bunch of randomly cased symbols, or just build strings? 17:19:56 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 17:20:10 _3b: just build strings 17:20:19 egn: you can get the whole file as a string with read-line or read-sequence and some accumulation 17:20:26 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:20:47 egn: you can also preserve the case of symbols with readtable-case if you want to still read lisp forms 17:21:11 <_3b> you might want to look at using a separate reader then if you don't want interning 17:21:50 <_3b> (and if splitting forms as lisp would is important, as opposed to just reading lines, or a dumb read to next #\) ) 17:23:13 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 17:23:56 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-107-118.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 17:24:36 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 17:26:00 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6E87D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 17:28:21 Xach: thanks, that'll work 17:28:38 also use with-standard-io-syntax for reading/printing 17:28:41 _3b: thanks, yeah I'll prob just grab the whole file as a string 17:28:49 stassats: alright, thanks 17:29:03 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:29:17 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:30:00 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:31:01 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:31:49 how much different is CL from Scheme? 17:31:58 pretty much 17:32:30 you can have functions and variables named the same thing at the same time 17:32:35 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:32:39 uman: we're the good, they're the bad 17:32:49 *madnificent* ducks and goes for food and party 17:33:20 -!- qidush [n=qidush@c83-252-27-42.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:33:24 madnificent: :P 17:34:19 uman: broadly similar fundamental types and syntax, but not really much useful 'common subset'. you can't run code from one in the other practically 17:34:27 well, unless you're pjb 17:35:00 defun instead of define for functions 17:35:09 pjb? 17:35:16 knowing both at the same time doesn't hurt 17:36:06 amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 17:36:37 -!- hippee-lee` [n=hippee-l@97-124-158-228.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit ["ansered own question"] 17:36:53 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 17:37:10 uman: there is enough difference for it to be two different languages 17:37:43 p_l: well the same could be said of C++ and Ruby 17:37:48 p_l: and also of C# and Java 17:37:54 but C# and Java are much closer than C++ and Ruby 17:38:38 CL is definitely more "multiparadigm" while Scheme seems concentrated on functional style. Scheme is a Lisp-1 while CL is a Lisp-2. The standard is much bigger, more types and functionality are standardised 17:38:59 I see 17:39:16 I'm going through SICP, a computer science intro text that has the side-effect of teaching Scheme 17:39:21 so I was just curious 17:39:26 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:39:51 -!- scottmaccal1 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:39:54 It teaches enough of one implementation of scheme to do the book examples 17:39:56 uman: you can definitely use SICP with CL, it's just that you will have to rewrite examples 17:40:28 p_l: True 17:40:32 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:40:40 would I be flayed alive if I suggested being masochistic and using x86 assembler? 17:41:24 Use SBCL, and it will assemble to machine code for you. 17:41:37 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:42:04 qidush [n=qidush@83.252.27.42] has joined #lisp 17:42:16 OmniMancer: use for what? 17:42:43 for rewriteing the examples in? 17:42:46 and for learning, I'd rather use MMIX. it's small and simple (well, "simple") 17:43:01 scottmaccal1 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 17:44:17 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 17:45:14 roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-175-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:22 i'd use lambda calculus, it's small and simple 17:45:28 yay 17:45:52 or if you really want to annoy yourself write them in llvm IR in one file by hand 17:47:00 OmniMancer: or start from ZISC and build up a complete lispmachine 17:47:29 ouch 17:47:30 (ZISC, OISC, what's the difference? neither has opcodes...) 17:47:37 or 17:47:48 write all the interpreters in BrainF*** 17:48:49 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-4-206.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:48:50 *p_l* had seen DeCSS in Brainfuck, running in VM implemented in TECO, that ran in TECO implemented in Emacs Lisp. Cthulhu decided to sleep longer after seeing it 17:49:38 *OmniMancer* would be happier if he knew what the first one of those was. 17:49:57 OmniMancer: DVD decryption algorithm 17:50:22 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@dslb-084-058-175-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 17:51:08 ah 17:51:10 OmniMancer: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=DeCSS 17:51:43 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:47 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:53:27 hefner [i=hefner@ppp-58-9-111-250.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 17:56:33 -!- gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 17:58:44 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:58:52 kenjin_che [n=kenjin@58.232.36.34] has joined #lisp 17:59:02 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:00:52 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p4FD3FC1D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:02:52 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@pool-173-77-252-63.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:31 -!- Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-18.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:07:04 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-140.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 18:07:49 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 18:08:07 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:10:18 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:34 Elench [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-18.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:12:55 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-147.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 18:19:25 ln5 [n=Adium@h199n2c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 18:20:36 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-116-100.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:21:55 Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 18:22:44 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:23:47 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-49-28.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:24:04 uman? 18:25:33 minion: memo for uman: kpreid was making a reference to http://paste.lisp.org/display/84252 ;-) 18:25:34 Remembered. I'll tell uman when he/she/it next speaks. 18:25:56 -!- kenjin_che [n=kenjin@58.232.36.34] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:26:46 milanj [n=milan@212.200.223.115] has joined #lisp 18:27:02 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:31:15 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:31:23 Handcrafted [n=henrik@0x573bbf5a.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.ronqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:33:04 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 128 (Network is unreachable)] 18:34:18 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 18:35:47 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:35:57 I understand that Lisp virtually tolerates any character as a symbol, but what about unicode? How is the unicode support across different (common) lisp implementations? 18:36:20 Handcrafted: it varies. 18:36:21 Handcrafted: the better ones support it just fine. 18:36:35 luis: The better ones? 18:36:42 Handcrafted: which one are you using? 18:36:53 I'm currently using clisp 18:37:11 Handcrafted: well, CLISP suports that, doesn't it? 18:37:13 Handcrafted: any character that clisp supports can be used in a symbol. clisp has good unicode support. 18:37:44 Okay, thanks. 18:38:22 some people use that to use a lambda character instead of the word lambda 18:38:26 *Xach* is not a big fan 18:38:48 *Handcrafted* thinks about APL 18:39:34 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-18-7.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:43:38 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 18:44:46 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:44:53 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:45:02 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 18:48:19 Handcrafted: define your APL like functions with ascii names, and then define in an optional package aliases of these functions using unicode. Hence your library will be usable everywhere. 18:49:12 <_Pb> what 18:49:39 <_Pb> are we talking about some kind of lisp APL implementation? 18:50:26 I'm not talking about one, I'm just thinking about using the lambda symbol for lambda. 18:50:32 But the idea is interesting 18:50:34 <_Pb> oh :c 18:50:35 vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has joined #lisp 18:50:50 <_Pb> yeah 18:51:02 Think about doing this in Lisp: http://imgkk.com/i/ViG.png 18:51:15 <_Pb> hehe 18:51:25 (That program returns all primes up to R) 18:51:42 <_Pb> wow 18:51:49 <_Pb> or imagine being able to write the game of life in one line 18:52:02 <_Pb> http://catpad.net/michael/apl/ 18:52:04 i was just about to ask, whether that string is supposed to make any sense 18:52:06 Handcrafted: looks to big 18:52:17 stassats: Sorry? 18:52:36 _Pb: APL is amazing 18:52:41 i guess it could be done in less symbols 18:52:53 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 18:53:01 stassats: Like it's too long? 18:53:07 Handcrafted: you'd need a funny keyboard, though 18:53:08 stassats: trivially; ask bzip. 18:53:29 rsynnott: Look up: "APL keyboard" on Google 18:53:50 there's emacs mode for entering apl 18:53:58 *rsynnott* always suspected that APL was designed by an alchemist who had a career change 18:54:02 <_Pb> k looks like a neat little language laos 18:54:02 <_Pb> heh 18:54:03 stassats: Doens't really surprise me 18:56:28 Handcrafted: something like: ( ( (~ R) ( R (· (× R)))) ( ( 1 R) R)) ? (I'm probably wrong with the parentheses). 18:57:02 pjb: Yeah, you off a few places 18:58:25 The thing is that APL is read from left to right, this makes it a little harder to convert it to other languages 18:58:32 Handcrafted: anyways, you can see that for expressions with a lot of such operators, it might really be worthwhile to have an APL parser instead of relying on lisp sexps. If you have an occasionnal use for an APL operator in a lisp expressions, you could as well use an ASCII name. 18:58:47 Handcrafted: you mean from right to left. 18:58:54 pjb: Yeah 18:59:09 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:00:15 brown [n=user@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 19:00:43 -!- brown is now known as Guest93323 19:01:10 gonzojive__ [n=red@122.163.195.98] has joined #lisp 19:02:53 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@122.163.195.57] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:03:57 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.22] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:04:33 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 19:05:14 karasiov [n=ubuntu@ppp91-122-163-249.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 19:08:55 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:10:59 jwalsh [n=user@208.84.47.48] has joined #lisp 19:12:30 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@pool-173-77-252-63.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:12:59 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:54 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@95.65.241.57] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:17:39 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:17:59 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:21 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-107-118.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 19:22:15 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:46 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:33:07 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:37:42 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:38:46 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-4-206.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:38:56 bytecolor [n=user@32.155.126.252] has joined #lisp 19:44:07 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@static-70-108-241-27.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:45:01 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:49:23 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:50:47 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1CD61.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:31 nitor [n=digms@cpe-66-69-183-64.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:53:27 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:53:29 -!- Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:54:09 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:55:02 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 19:55:15 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 19:59:12 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 20:03:25 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host183-218-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 20:08:24 pjb: Ah, interesting. 20:08:24 uman, memo from pjb: kpreid was making a reference to http://paste.lisp.org/display/84252 ;-) 20:10:02 I really like the rainbow parenthesis on paste.lisp 20:12:48 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-32.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:15:03 -!- scottmaccal1 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Client Quit] 20:17:42 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:18:55 Ahh, finally, I've gotten Vim to be a decent Lisp editor, feels great :) 20:23:22 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:24:16 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 20:26:54 and it's called Emacs? 20:28:02 timor [n=martin@p54B64BEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:03 -!- timor [n=martin@p54B64BEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 20:29:20 Handcrafted, what do you use? 20:30:01 stassats: Good one 20:30:53 Handcrafted: I suspect what you call decent is pretty half-assed by emacs standards 20:30:55 tic: I'm using autoclose, the default lisp highlighter and indentien script and desert256 as the color scheme 20:31:19 Handcrafted, alright, so nothing like Limp (my preferred choice ;)) or Nekthuth? 20:31:32 tic: No 20:31:35 -!- chris2_ is now known as chris2 20:31:55 dlowe: by decent I mean that I lack autocompletion and rainbow parans 20:33:27 Handcrafted: and sexp navigation. And inferior lisp integration. And readable indentation. 20:33:57 Handcrafted: people don't say emacs is a better lisp editor from their prejudices *shrug* 20:34:19 I don't see any difference from Emacs indention to Vim's 20:34:30 more power to vim, then 20:35:27 I have good integration with an external Lisp shell. I use gnu screen to push the code. So I got okay integration with Lisp 20:35:42 I'm lacking the Lisp scriptability in Vim tho 20:35:51 What is the sexp navigation? 20:36:04 Handcrafted: your "integration" makes us chortle 20:36:40 Handcrafted, have you tried Limp? That gives you a nice shorthand for your screen stuff. 20:36:41 Handcrafted: google it. I'm not trying to convert anyone. 20:36:53 dlowe: I'll do 20:37:10 tic: I have C-c C-c as a shotcut 20:41:07 dlowe: Hmm, interesting. Seems really nice, might look into a vim script 20:43:20 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 20:43:25 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:44:08 seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:45:04 Can I do real work w/o ever using setf! but rather just functional code? The reason I'm asking is that SICP ch3 is ambivalent about imperative programming....so I'm wondering if I can do real work in lisp being 100% functional 20:45:06 dalton [n=user5442@187.34.44.74] has joined #lisp 20:45:44 100%? no, not likely. 20:48:27 <_3b> CL doesn't make any effort to support 100% functional code, so for example IO would probably be difficult 20:48:30 Handcrafted, what's the source code for the shortcut? 20:49:02 I used a script, I'll get the link 20:49:07 Thanks 20:49:34 http://technotales.wordpress.com/2007/10/03/like-slime-for-vim/ 20:49:37 There 20:49:48 <_3b> other lisps might be more or less suited for pure functional programming 20:50:08 _3b: your comment makes it seem like w/o IO maybe pure func may work 20:50:08 alright, it copies paragraphs. thanks. 20:50:28 Handcrafted, I use et to pass top s-exp to my Lisp, and ec for current s-exp. 20:50:38 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:39 _3b: clearnly if one's objectives are minimal they may not need imperative 20:50:48 <_3b> seb-: right, if you are willing to limit the definition of 'real work' it is easier 20:50:52 *tic* should rewrite all of Limp... some day. 20:51:04 tic: okay 20:51:09 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has joined #lisp 20:51:28 _3b: let me ask a related question...how "real" can "real work" get if you limit your CL code to pure func? :) 20:51:43 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B1CCF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:45 _3b: w/ recursion you can do equivalent of loop constructs..so we are good there 20:51:59 _3b: seems you can do some good stuff w/just recursion 20:52:02 <_3b> seb-: as real as you want, my point if just that you can't do /all/ real work 20:52:04 s/good/real/ 20:52:12 _3b: ah ok..i'll buy that 20:52:18 _3b: all is indeed a big word 20:52:31 <_3b> you'd need to be careful using recursion for looping in CL though, since the spec doesn't guaranteed TCO 20:52:43 tco? 20:53:03 <_3b> tail call optimization, basically turning recusion into iteration where possible 20:53:05 I'll say goodnight now 20:53:07 -!- Handcrafted [n=henrik@0x573bbf5a.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.ronqu1.customer.tele.dk] has left #lisp 20:53:07 seb-: some lisps provide some form of TCO, you certainly have higher-order functions available (with proper closures). There are no first-class continuations, and side-effects are all over the place in CL, not necessarily well-marked (such as SORT) 20:53:46 you can just make a side-effect-free-cl package. :) 20:54:12 you'd have to rewrite a chunk of lisp :P 20:54:14 a very big chunk 20:54:32 just eliminate everything with side effects, I'm sure you don't need it 20:54:47 seb-: if you really want to have something that's sort of like CL (kinda) but is purely functional, you could try looking at Qi :) 20:55:25 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:36 is there an sbcl equivalent for replace-all ? 20:55:41 foom: variable (re-)assignment, all of CLOS, sort, nfoo, various other sequence functions, put I/O into a monad... 20:55:46 specifically, I'm looking for an easy search and replace./ 20:56:00 sykopomp: thanks 20:56:21 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 20:56:32 seb-: if what you want is to mess around with functional constructs for shits and giggles, I think you should try Scheme or Qi instead of Common Lisp. 20:56:47 there's even a PLT Scheme thing that does lazy evaluation. 20:56:52 Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:57:09 <_3b> you might also look at clojure for a more functional oriented language 20:57:19 sykopomp: ok..can i ask you a question about something you said about 2 min ago? 20:57:19 <_3b> s/language/lisp/ 20:57:20 _3b: ffffffffu- 20:57:22 (it's true though) 20:57:26 seb-: sure. 20:57:39 sykopomp: i'm trying to understand what is the big deal about "closures".. 20:57:55 sykopomp: a cursory reading of wikipedia shows it basically has something to do w/ functions inside of functions 20:58:06 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:58:13 sykopomp: i can do that in python and that is common in lisp iirc 20:58:20 <_3b> seb-: more generally functions within the scope of a variable binding 20:58:22 sykopomp: so i still don't see what is the deep idea i'm missing here 20:58:26 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.223.115] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:58:28 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:58:38 seb-: closures are functions that preserve their lexical environment even though they're not really 'inside' the same part of the code anymore. 20:58:44 at least that's one way to explain them. 20:58:51 <_3b> for example (let ((a 1)) (lambda () a)) returns a closure 20:59:10 sykopomp: so basically they are functions that carry their state around with them? 20:59:11 (let ((x 5)) (lambda () (incf x))) <-- every time you funcall that function, x will increase. 20:59:16 seb-: basically, yes. 20:59:24 they carry around their lexical bindings. 21:00:06 for example, you can use closures to implement an object-oriented language. 21:00:07 _3b: doesnt that return (lambda () 1) ? 21:00:09 also (let ((a 1)) (defun foo () a) (defun bar () (incf a)) 21:00:20 seb-: no, it returns the value of a 21:00:26 which in the case of that environment, is 1 21:00:35 it doesn't save the value, it saves the binding. 21:01:06 <_3b> seb-: not exactly, though in my example a good compiler would probably optimize it to that... sykopomp's example is a more interesting closure :) 21:01:12 so in the case of my example, it'll keep returning the new value of x 21:01:33 sykopomp: you lost me on "doesn't save the value, it saves the binding." 21:01:49 seb-: it's saves the lexical variable, within the lexical environment. 21:02:02 so basically, pretend that every time you're calling that function, it's still actually inside that let 21:02:09 sykopomp: ah 21:02:23 and that it's seeing the binding established by that let. 21:02:32 sykopomp: since you mentioned OOP...is it possible to implement OOP in 100% pure functional lisp? 21:02:48 seb-: yes 21:03:04 <_3b> seb-: depends on how you define 'possible' 'oop' and '100%' :p 21:03:06 wow...you can implement objects w/ state in a 100% func langie...fascinating 21:03:06 there's a book you could look into that implements a pure-functional object-oriented 'language' 21:03:27 <_3b> see also 'turing tarpit' :) 21:03:42 seb-: if you want to stay purely functional, you have to basically create a completely new object every time you make a change to a 'slot' 21:03:50 so it's not very practical, but it's interesting. 21:04:05 thanks again 21:04:13 Design Concepts in Programming Languages 21:04:32 it basically uses a scheme-like language to implement a ton of different languages. It introduces a bunch of interesting concepts. 21:04:44 such as monads, continuations, object-orientation, etc. 21:04:54 it's a fun book. 21:05:24 but of course, all this is really in the realm of 'interesting', not so much 'practical' 21:06:08 Common Lisp likes to think it lives in 'practical land (even though its binding for 'practical was created like 20 years ago, but whatever) 21:06:26 nothing a few tweaks here and there can't fix. eh? eh? :) 21:06:54 sykopomp: i wrote a baby lisp...my motivation for 100% func is less noble than you think..... 21:07:12 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:17 sykopomp: it is just that it would take *work* to implement setf and go beyond the "substitution model" of SICP ch1-2 :) 21:07:33 i can only digest so much at a time 21:08:31 Hi all. I'm trying to write a macro which will basically replace symbols in the body with other (macro generated) symbols. I'm thinking of doing a replace-all on the string of the body of the macro. Would you recommend against that? If not, how do I turn a s-exp into a string? 21:09:20 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:09:48 Moe111: write a function that does it? 21:10:07 there's no stock method that turns a s-exp into a stirng? 21:10:13 string? 21:10:43 method? 21:10:47 no 21:10:50 not that I know of. 21:11:07 there's coerce, but that turns a list of char into a string. 21:11:17 something like symbol-name 21:11:21 hmmm... I see. 21:11:40 so it's not a slam dunk. What's my alternative then? Should I walk teh s-exp as a tree? 21:11:51 -!- karasiov [n=ubuntu@ppp91-122-163-249.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has left #lisp 21:11:57 what exactly are you trying to do? 21:11:58 If you have to do this, you're very likely doing it wrong 21:12:07 clhs subst 21:12:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_substc.htm 21:12:22 ^ insofar as this is a sensible thing to do, use subst 21:12:32 it's still wrong, but it's less wrong than using strings 21:12:51 kpreid: can you tell me in what respect it's wrong? 21:12:59 Moe111: what are you trying to do? 21:13:01 it will violate the syntax of other macros 21:13:02 more specifically. 21:13:13 for example, it will substitute symbols inside of QUOTE, which are data 21:13:24 I see. 21:13:24 here's the gist of what I'm doing: 21:13:30 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:13:50 I want to make a macro called with-sql-results which takes a sql query and then does the following: 21:14:15 calls the query at macro expansion time to get an empty result set, takes the column definitions given in this empty resultset 21:14:25 -!- seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 21:14:42 and then substitutes any symbols by those names with, say, (nth i results) given the ordinal position 21:15:00 okay, use symbol-macrolet instead 21:15:14 that said, that's still a terrible thing to do 21:15:19 why? 21:15:33 because the reader of the code can't tell whether a variable is local or free 21:15:41 kpreid: you keep on saying I'm doing terrible things, but I'm pretty sure what I'm doing here is better than having (nth 7 results) in my code 21:15:48 Moe111: false choice. 21:15:50 use destructuring-bind instead 21:16:02 (destructuring-bind (col1 col2 col3 ...) results ...) 21:16:09 hmmm... 21:16:11 that's an idea. 21:16:26 could I make the arglist in destructuring bind be compile time determined? 21:16:28 I guess I could 21:16:41 if destructuring-bind hadn't existed, I would have suggested writing it 21:16:43 Makoryu [n=vt920@pool-74-104-123-150.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:43 er, it *is* 21:16:53 no, I mean this: 21:17:17 `(destructuring-bind (,@auto-magic-args) results ,body) 21:17:29 you can certainly put that in a macro you define. 21:17:37 that will actually do the trick. that was a good exchange right there. 21:17:43 but you shouldn't, because that makes scope unclear to the reader 21:17:48 what you do instead is this: 21:18:11 have something like (sql-bind (col1 col2) query ...), which *generates the list of columns to select* from those variable names. 21:18:20 that will be both clean and efficient 21:18:35 hmmm.... 21:18:51 <_3b> doing SQL queries at macroexpansion time sounds messy aside from the stuff about variables and such 21:18:55 also, I may very well be reinventing the wheel of your sql binding 21:18:59 why not simply signal a condition if I try to compile the macro with columns that don't exist? 21:19:02 what library are you using? 21:19:09 clsql 21:19:56 _3b: it seems that way at first, but it isn't. Most of my data fetching is done through runtime macro generation. All of the code syncs off of the db. 21:20:00 Moe111: http://clsql.b9.com/manual/do-query.html 21:20:26 timor [n=martin@p54B64BEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:33 -!- timor [n=martin@p54B64BEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 21:20:57 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:21:08 kpreid: I'd really prefer not declaring the variables in code 21:21:20 <_3b> Moe111: assuming the query make sense, you should be doing it at compile time, not macroexpansion time 21:21:46 kpreid: I can see that there's a readability issue, but that issue comes from the fact that the db definition lies outside the lisp image, not from the inherent evilness of the macro 21:21:48 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:00 um, no 21:22:13 what we're trying to preserve here is: 21:22:20 Moe111: no. randomly creating new user-visible bindings smells. 21:22:24 for any given variable, you can see where it is bound by examining the enclosing source. 21:22:27 <_3b> Moe111: i'd still expect the list of variables you expect from the query to exist in the lisp image, independent of the DB 21:22:42 in your get-from-the-db design, that info *DOES NOT EXIST* inside the lisp source. that is bad. 21:22:50 It's even worse when the set of new bindings may change independently of the source. 21:23:06 suppose I had your macro -- suppose I had two nested occurrences of it. which variable is from which query? Unless I know your DB schema, I don't know. 21:23:20 And if a new column is added to the db, the code could start misbehaving. 21:23:46 well, I'm admittedly not writing macros for use in libraries. Think of it as essentially a single layer flat coding helper 21:24:15 everytime I change the db structure, all I have to do is reload the lisp image. all class definitions and CRUD is regenerated automatically 21:24:45 sounds like a PITA 21:24:48 I get that it's not pretty, but the alternative I have is a correct but hard to use system 21:24:49 it is 21:24:52 sure, but that doesn't require rebinding stuff *at every usage* 21:24:55 but it works. here's an example: 21:25:07 ok, so you want a short syntax for column access. here's one: 21:25:09 kpreid: explain what you mean by every usage 21:25:28 changing the db does not change which columns are *actually used* at each query 21:25:34 so they do not need to be touched 21:25:37 no!!!! 21:26:00 Suggestion: have your macro locally bind a macro named R, such that (r foo) returns the value of the foo column 21:26:08 That would be cleaner, yet still short 21:26:11 the power supply in my server seems to have died. 21:26:32 kpreid: I've considered that option too. Something like (colnam resultset) 21:26:40 kpreid: tell me why you think it's cleaner? 21:26:41 (better yet, let each use of your macro specify the name) 21:27:00 Moe111: because it doesn't make bindings that vary with external data 21:27:02 -!- s0ber [i=pie@114-45-227-228.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:27:10 Moe111: Feel free to write unmaintainable code, but keep in mind that you and you in 6 months won't have the same mind. 21:27:15 the structure of the code should be recognizable from the code itself! 21:27:18 I should show you what my macro looks like. hold on 21:27:29 lisppaste: url 21:27:30 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 21:27:37 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-235-42.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:39 *sykopomp* takes preemptive measures. 21:27:41 we don't care about your current macro; show us the *uses* of it. 21:28:05 kpreid: chill dude. I am showing you what I want achieved and you will see the use. 21:29:46 Moe111: No matter how it looks like, you're still creating bindings depending on something else than the source. Creating bindings with generated names is already suspect. Doing so depending on outside, mutable, data is even worse. There's no way that a construct that can make code like (let ((foo ...)) (your-macro ... [use foo])) work or fail depending on the database's schema can be a good idea. 21:29:46 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177148135.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:30:30 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:40 pkhuong: I think he's got the point; we would need to show better things 21:31:14 pkhuong: theoretically. Yes. But this comes to something akin to a microkernel. NAmely: if my database is out of sync with my source, it's already game over. there's no point in having a correct source if it's broken as a whole system 21:31:18 -!- vyazovoi [n=vyazovoi@horrible-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:32:10 Moe111 pasted "macro sample" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85835 21:32:20 <_3b> Moe111: are you putting a list of columns into the query? if so, why can't you put that list into the binding form as well instead of generating names? 21:32:36 _3b: no, the query is a stored proc 21:32:54 -!- bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [Client Quit] 21:33:14 to give you more background: the SQL server exists and is already live with 1.5 gigs of data. it serves a site. IT's not going to change. 21:33:30 nobody's saying you should change the sql db 21:33:38 I am tasked with writing a lisp webserver that will offload part of that work. The SQL server is still working in other areas. 21:33:40 Moe111: even if that were true, generating the names from a query makes silent failures much more likely than explicit ones, and the non-silent failures perverse and hard to debug. 21:34:25 well, given Moe111's example it may well be that this is toplevel and there *are no other lexical variables* 21:34:37 In which case, it seems a lot less hazardous to do this 21:34:39 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:35:44 kpreid: you mean, except for site? 21:37:08 hmmm... thikning about this further makes me realize the tradeoff of using destructuring bind. Ok, here's an example I'd like to use this with: 21:37:15 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 21:37:33 lispm [n=joswig@e177121250.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:39:01 pkhuong: I mean, except for the bindings produced from the db 21:39:08 Moe111 pasted "macro usage sample" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85836 21:39:17 to be trendy, think of it as a DSL where all variables are sql results 21:39:25 ok. so here are the behaviours I want: 21:40:29 if spFetchData doesnt' return "name", I want name to be nil or something "useful". otherwise, I want name to be substituted with say (nth 4 results) 21:41:59 Moe111: how can your macro tell which of all the symbols in its body should be bound to query values? 21:42:02 I also want it to update the positions properly every time I interpret this. 21:42:20 I've got some other code that does that. It's ordinal is the answer 21:42:52 "spAsdf ~a , ~a , '~a'" id another-id some-text (is the simple version) 21:43:12 keep in mind this is not exposed to user land. there's no sql injection etc. 21:44:26 so the bottom line is: if I recompile, and the field is not there in the database, the system shouldn't grind to a halt. I should just see an empty slot on the website. and then we'll handle it. 21:44:52 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:44:55 well, but if you just bind them based on the db columns, that's not what will happen 21:45:01 you'll get an unbound-variable error instead 21:45:10 <_3b> Moe111: what if you want to print out the results of 2 queries at the same time? 21:45:12 indeed. =\ I realized that later on in the conversation 21:46:41 I don't. not for these macros at least. These macros are actually linked to some other macros which pull down the object structure from the db and turn it into lisp classes. Long version short: right now, I automatically determine which fields should go where, and I'd like room to add some minor amount of data modification in the body of the macro so that I may intercept the data between the db and the CLOS state 21:46:55 -!- bytecolor [n=user@32.155.126.252] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:47:07 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:47:37 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 21:48:09 hmpf. 21:48:10 -!- rdd` [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:50:22 kpreid: I guess doing what I was wanting to do there comes back to what you were saying about not knowing the lexical context at runtime, eh. 21:53:31 anyone use cl-opengl and cl-glut here? I'm messing around with my glut:idle function. Even though I (disable-event window :idle), the CPU usage is still 100% 21:53:54 if I don't include the (defmethod glut:idle... I don't have the 100% cpu usage 21:55:13 -!- dalton [n=user5442@187.34.44.74] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:56:56 <_3b> DeusExPikachu: do you have a simple test case? 21:58:15 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:59:08 tore_ [n=tore@181.133.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:59:27 -!- tore_ [n=tore@181.133.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Client Quit] 21:59:34 ToreN [n=tore@181.133.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 22:01:20 <_3b> DeusExPikachu: actually, nevermind, made my own 22:01:25 should be the simplest case you can think of... 22:02:41 -!- chii [i=chii@freenode/bot/chii] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:03:27 chii [i=chii@freenode/bot/chii] has joined #lisp 22:03:28 create a stupid loop in an idle func, and disable it with a keyboard input, cpu usage should drop 22:03:51 <_3b> DeusExPikachu: do you have most recent cl-opengl from main darcs repo? 22:04:45 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 22:04:46 not the most recent... i'm using gentoo's overlay, version .1_p20080926, i'll see if I can get the most recent 22:04:54 <_3b> DeusExPikachu: most recent patch seems to fix it 22:06:20 <_3b> s/patch/commit/ 22:08:02 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 22:08:50 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:10:56 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:11:10 emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-11-230.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:12:59 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:15:03 djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 22:15:03 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-160-166-209.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:44 -!- chii [i=chii@freenode/bot/chii] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:18:25 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-18-7.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:18:34 chii [i=chii@freenode/bot/chii] has joined #lisp 22:20:06 lde [n=nnnnnuse@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 22:20:30 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-49-28.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:23:43 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B1CCF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:25:30 patmatch [n=wmbot@dsl093-216-036.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:46 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B1CCF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:01 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-235-42.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:27:50 rdd [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:30:29 LLLjmp [n=ss@p54A8D710.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:50 hello 22:31:15 -!- LLLjmp is now known as LLL-jmp 22:31:24 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 22:31:33 is it dangerous to combine perl and lisp ? 22:31:43 i mean especially bioperl fragments 22:33:20 the argument has been made that perl itself is a sign you've gone very wrong at somepoint in your technology choice. ;) 22:37:19 *Xach* sometimes generates perl with lisp 22:37:32 Hun [n=Hun@p4FD3FC1D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:42 at least perl (using the/a perl interpreter in a lisp process) can't cause the process to die because of memory errors as can happen when using C libraries ("dangerous") 22:42:33 ..i think.. 22:45:30 you can run c programs as processes as well 22:45:45 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.214.95] has quit [Client Quit] 22:46:31 mhm 22:46:32 yeah, i thought about Remote FFI once, and even implemented a simple prototype .. it was pretty slow, but memory trouble didn't bring down the lisp process at least 22:47:06 mhm 22:47:21 the REPL loop is not able to compute pi 22:47:25 in this algoirthm 22:47:29 how can this be 22:47:55 it should krowf 22:47:58 work 22:48:06 fsvo pi 22:48:23 oh 22:48:24 k 22:48:31 thats logical 22:48:43 maybe rational 22:49:16 all cl implementations implement pi as a constant 22:49:21 afaik 22:49:33 on a 64bit sbcl it's 3.141592653589793d0 22:49:35 oh 22:49:36 not all 22:49:45 -!- matimago- [n=user@88.170.236.224] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:49:46 clisp recomputes it whenever you change float precision 22:49:49 i use mprexg 22:49:55 ahh 22:50:20 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:50:52 -!- LLL-jmp is now known as LDCC2 22:51:06 oops 22:51:13 ah now it works again 22:51:39 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:52:01 connection reset by phear 22:52:01 hrhr 22:52:09 i wonder if anybody has done a cl-perl 22:52:14 yes 22:52:15 i did 22:52:18 please, stop this nonsense 22:52:25 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec`afk 22:52:28 thanks 22:54:13 -!- alexsuraci1 is now known as alexsuraci 22:59:38 http://stuartsierra.com/software/perl-in-lisp 23:00:33 so you can crash your lisp from perl 23:00:42 double-win 23:01:00 here's the gun, there's your foot. 23:01:31 i wonder whether you can do nasty things in a separate thread and still be ok 23:06:59 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B1CCF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:09:59 -!- ln5 [n=Adium@h199n2c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:15:12 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@63.83.115.122] has quit [] 23:17:28 anon [n=anon@ip56583baa.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 23:19:51 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 23:36:39 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:38:23 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:42:11 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-24-147-105-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:45 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:06 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.90.27] has joined #lisp 23:48:47 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177121250.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 23:51:30 -!- rswarbrick [n=user@81.155.214.213] has left #lisp 23:54:51 weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 23:58:37 i'm afraid not