00:01:51 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:03:17 -!- pluijzer [n=iisjmii@dhcp-077-248-127-112.chello.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:05:31 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:45 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:06:46 banisterfiend [n=little_b@203-211-70-217.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:07:09 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@KD124213182069.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:10:38 _thot4879 [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has joined #lisp 00:11:41 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-139-131.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:01 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:15:05 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:17:03 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:18:37 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:18:48 Does anyone know if there is an analog to string stream that has unsigned-bytes instead of 'char or 'base-char? I need to read-byte from an in-memory byte string. 00:19:22 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:23 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:21:07 minion: tell wgl about flexi-streams 00:21:07 wgl: please see flexi-streams: FLEXI-STREAMS is a library which implements "virtual" bivalent streams that can be layered atop real binary/bivalent streams. http://www.cliki.net/flexi-streams 00:22:05 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:22:27 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@98.246.183.155] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:23:47 fe[nl]ix: thanks, will check it out. 00:23:57 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 00:25:13 -!- _thot4879 [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has quit [Client Quit] 00:26:03 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 00:28:58 -!- pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:32:16 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.228.146] has quit [Operation timed out] 00:39:06 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2775.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:39:25 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-105-177.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:38 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:42:44 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:52:56 pizdets [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:45 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 00:53:57 jao [n=jao@31.Red-83-33-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:58 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:54:10 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 00:54:38 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:36 c|mell [n=cmell@y192018.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 00:56:43 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 00:57:19 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AB78.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:57:58 is SBCL about to freeze (saw some talk about it a few hours ago, i think...)? .. i think a patch is missing 00:58:35 it will freeze on 23 01:00:17 *stassats* is adding tabs to his web-browser on commonqt 01:00:30 npoektop` [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 01:01:55 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:02:27 ok, yeah, i'm still having trouble with the truncate function here .. pkhuong fixed it though; http://paste.lisp.org/display/85253#2 01:03:02 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ivkxnnefqohnwczi] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:03:10 kpreid: what do you think "The primitive value NaN represents the *set* of IEEE 754 "Not-a-Number" values. This *value* is a member of the Number type"? 01:03:31 lnostdal: I think I have 4 patches in the queue. 01:03:39 ok, pkhuong 01:04:13 pkhuong: ...means? 01:04:56 kpreid: right (: 01:05:10 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.228.146] has joined #lisp 01:05:23 Well, I think it has a bit of  vs.  confusion. 01:06:11 The "set of IEEE 754 values" bit is about that there is more than one bit-pattern which is a NaN. The extra bits are either application-specific or FP-processor-specific, I forget which. 01:06:38 What it may be saying is that the language's "NaN" object may be *represented by* any one of the IEEE NaNs. 01:06:40 application specific. The application has all the significand to encode data in. 01:06:59 What language/vm spec is this? ECMAScript perhaps? 01:07:04 yes. 01:07:19 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:10:47 hi pkhuong 01:11:19 jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 01:11:59 stassats, does this mean we can get rid of javascript and use lisp client-side also? :) 01:12:10 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:12:58 lnostdal: i don't know 01:13:12 stassats, (half serious; it is probably better to just use other Qt widgets for GUI stuff since one already have access to them etc.) 01:13:40 ..i mean; instead of trying to do something fancy and GUI'ish on/in the web-page 01:16:03 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 01:16:09 hmm, looks like qt somehow conflicts with sbcl 01:17:06 pkhuong: So why are you studying this? Implementing something on JS? 01:17:26 Thinking of implementing an engine in CL. 01:17:28 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-67.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 01:17:35 Ah. 01:18:17 *kpreid* imagines entertaining applications of change-class 01:18:49 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.218.65] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 01:20:19 stassats: how does it conflict? 01:20:37 signals division by zero 01:21:05 from foreign code, as far as i can tell 01:21:31 stassats: C doesn't have FP traps by default. The FFI should frob/restore the mask automatically, but you can always do that yourself. 01:21:59 ccl works ok, so i'm using it for commonqt 01:22:55 kpreid: yup, it seems that the set of all NaNs are all the same value ("NaN") to ecmascript 5 01:23:27 Well, it's still better than portable CL floating-point :-) 01:23:39 That specification is dangerously overspecified on FP. 01:24:01 Mm. Like people complain about Java? 01:25:32 hmm, commonqt doesn't seem to catch class redifinition, can you redefine classes in C++? 01:26:00 stassats: Are you convinced that each CommonQT class is represented as a C++ class? 01:26:20 not really, but i'm anyway interested in my question 01:26:27 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:27:01 stassats: (sb-int:with-float-traps-masked (:invalid :divide-by-zero) ...) 01:27:20 stassats: you can't redefine the class in C++, but you could map it somewhere, I think, and change the mapping... 01:27:52 kpreid: must support denorms for example. 01:30:11 luis: that does seem to work, thanks 01:31:06 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:35:56 stassats, SBCL freeze? What do you mean? 01:36:26 it gets cold and super-conducts 01:36:46 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-166.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 01:36:49 I wonder if a RFD/CFV for moderating c.l.l would be a good idea, and if it would help with all the trolls. I've lost count. 01:37:53 stassats, :) Is that all you meant? 01:38:04 stassats: and forms a naked singularity though interesting manipulation of gravity 01:38:25 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.228.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:38:56 lat: at 23 kelvins, yeah. but seriously, it's a feature freeze before release 01:39:13 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@y192018.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:39:14 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.228.146] has joined #lisp 01:40:14 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229143184.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 01:43:05 stassats, good. I thought perhaps it had died, and was in the freezer awaiting burial. After all the time I spent installing it. 01:44:27 sbcl was already mistakenly proclaimed dead couple of times today 01:46:12 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:47:00 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:47:03 (eval-when :superconducting-execute (let (g (make-instance 'sb-superconduncting:phased-array-gravity-antenna)) ((sb-superconducting:collapse-space g))) 01:47:45 what are you, writing LHC in lisp? 01:48:11 LHC is a child toy compared to direct manipulation of spacetime! xD 01:48:24 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:50:20 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 01:52:01 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-188-098-198-170.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:54:28 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:54:46 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:54:57 p_l: Error: Unknown package SB-SUPERCONDUNCTING 01:55:15 ah, a misspelling 01:55:35 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 01:55:43 you have to be careful when you're playing with spacetime! you also can't afford paren errors :P 01:55:58 though, would you rather prefer (sb-kernel::%raise-cthulhu) ? 01:56:47 *luis* chuckles at a discussion between Faré and Scott McKay in Facebook 01:56:49 hmm, I thought cthulhu was a contrib. 01:56:56 *stassats* is less ambitious, (sb-ext:get-some-money) would be enough 01:56:58 luis: link ? 01:57:01 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:04 "Let's assume that mentioning your name in the Linux CREDITS file means that you have made a kernel checkin, rather than being a lame attempt to impress me." 01:57:36 fe[nl]ix: Facebook sucks. They don't believe in links. :-/ 01:58:11 "Facebook is basically designed like a lobster trap with your friends as bait." 01:59:31 yep 02:00:26 Adlai: cthulhu is not as dangerous as (defun torment (x) (let (beatrice (find-witch 'beatrice)) (loop (taunt (revive (kill beatrice x))))) 02:00:29 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 02:01:54 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:01:59 beatrice does not exist 02:02:56 ramus`: the question is, which beatrice? Beato, Virgilia, EVA-Beatrice or ANGE-Beatrice? 02:03:24 All of them. 02:04:12 -!- banisterfiend [n=little_b@203-211-70-217.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit ["shadowy in red silk"] 02:04:31 ramus`: remember, that until you either prove or disprove that statement, both "exist" and "not exist" coexistent at the same time as "truth" :-) 02:05:16 pfft 02:05:26 (Schroedinger stole a witch'es cat) 02:05:31 indeed 02:05:59 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:07:22 *p_l* wonders how weird that exchange must have looked like to most ^^; 02:07:52 fe[nl]ix: flexi-streams works like a charm. using it to do in-memory stream for gigamonkeys binary data. 02:08:22 p_l: who's beatrice? 02:09:23 stassats: Dante's muse 02:09:38 stassats: Endless Witch, protege of Lambdadelta, who can endlessly kill and revive for all eternity 02:10:44 peddie_ [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:07 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:13:04 *p_l* divided his screen into irssi and  02:13:57 p_l:  02:14:22 now, that's look really weird 02:14:33 s/that's look/that looks/ 02:15:38 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:16:04 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-127-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:22 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 02:17:35 luis: is that in chinese? I can't fit it with my kanji dictionary 02:17:57 p_l: yeah. 02:19:16 luis: yeah, I got it now with google's help (japanese readings of those symbols were too different) 02:20:35 luis: a "Visual" Novel (except without any branches, it's basically text + simple graphics + awesome soundtrack) based on rather interesting world. Half fantasy/mystery (actually deciding which it is is part of the storyline...) 02:21:07 p_l: interesting. 02:21:23 konr_ [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 02:24:53 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:24:54 luis: Higurashi no Naku Koro ni(Kai) aka from the same author is also very interesting. Also, while both "series" don't have any branches to choose or anything, don't expect to be told what happens (mystery is important, as well as suffering) nor linear plot in either of those "games" 02:26:34 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:32:01 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:33:22 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:34:03 Jasko [n=tjasko@98.235.105.148] has joined #lisp 02:39:22 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 02:41:04 -!- konr_ [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:41:42 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:10 felideon [n=user@74.186.235.232] has joined #lisp 02:43:10 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@98.235.105.148] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:43:23 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 02:44:18 does there exist anywhere a library for parsing s-expressions? 02:44:37 OmniMancer: you mean other than #'read ? 02:44:38 clhs read 02:44:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_rd.htm 02:44:52 not safe, though 02:45:03 I mean that is not part of a lisp implementation and not written in lisp... 02:45:08 eh, if you're worried, (setf *read-eval* nil) 02:45:28 well, it interns 02:45:39 I am not worried, I am not working in lisp 02:45:54 i think one of the Pascal people have a reader 02:46:00 :/ 02:46:02 lnostdal: that's in CL 02:46:06 yeah, Adlai 02:46:17 OmniMancer: that's off-topic then 02:46:25 OmniMancer: you could look at the source code of pjb's reader and port it. 02:46:37 Other than that, I actually don't think that exists... 02:46:43 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:46:47 where can I find pjb's reader? 02:47:29 OmniMancer: http://sexpr.sourceforge.net/ (not pjb's, something else) 02:47:35 OmniMancer: http://darcs.informatimago.com/local/darcs/public/lisp 02:48:11 -!- pizdets [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:48:25 thanks 02:48:52 OmniMancer: http://darcs.informatimago.com/darcs/public/lisp/common-lisp/reader.lisp 02:49:03 oh, fe[nl]ix got there first. 02:54:56 konr [n=konrad@201.82.95.176] has joined #lisp 02:55:58 I find it rather sad that there does not exist a library for parsing general S-expessions in a language that is not lisp... 02:56:20 it's extremely trivial to write one 02:56:29 ^ 02:56:30 -!- timchen119 is now known as nasloc__ 02:56:47 OmniMancer: didn't I just show you one? 02:57:06 yes but... 02:57:17 OmniMancer: a variant is afaik included with most PKCS code 02:57:21 the problem with parsing 's s-expressions in something else is that they are essentially the data structures of that dialect 02:57:37 OmniMancer: but? 02:57:44 OmniMancer: also see http://www.interhack.net/projects/lpp/ 02:58:02 so while you certainly *can* do it, there's a whole bunch of data structures you end up working in... it's not all that interesting unless you want to process lisp, and most people do that *in* lisp 02:58:42 I want something that will parse lists in parentheses strings in "" perhaps symbols in || and treats everything as a symbol if it is not a list or a string 02:59:15 and the symbols will just a string not interned or anything... 02:59:36 so you want a peculiar version of a CL reader. 02:59:49 My point is just: I am not surprised that a library for this does not exist. 03:00:08 yes that parses to a nice set of tree structures... 03:00:11 OmniMancer: also: http://people.csail.mit.edu/rivest/sexp.html 03:00:15 OmniMancer: also, are you sure you want to parse into linked lists? 03:00:49 if the application handling the data isn't Lisp, then handling linked lists would quickly turn your app into a proof-by-example of Greenspun's Tenth. 03:01:32 what about going from lisp -> json -> some-language-parsing-json ..? 03:01:44 it doesn't have to be linked list. 03:01:59 luis: btw, I don't think that library you linked has a good model for s-expressions. Wouldn't it be better to have two different kinds of structs, one for a cons and one for an atom? 03:02:08 it is not for parsing lisp but rather for parsing s-expressions 03:02:21 OmniMancer: than you're not parsing S-expressions anymore, but your own datatype which just happens to look like s-expressions. 03:02:57 omni: Um. Well, once you have linked lists ... 03:03:17 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:03:27 um s-expressions do not have to be internally represented by linked lists to be s-expressions 03:03:28 omni: So, what should be the literal representation for arrays? 03:03:36 Irrelevant. 03:03:55 Once you have linked list you can represent them. 03:03:55 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:04:05 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:19 omni: What should be the literal representation for a symbol? 03:04:51 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:04:52 omni: This is essentially what your 'parsing s-expressions library' needs to determine. 03:05:06 any run of non whitespace characters that are not reserved or are escaped if so... 03:05:25 How do you escape the literal representation of symbols? 03:06:01 common lisp way? 03:06:13 Ah, so we're talking about common lisp s-expressions? 03:06:40 prettymuch 03:07:07 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-221-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:07 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-axjekkugzojwaczi] has joined #lisp 03:07:17 Not s-expressions in general, then. 03:07:21 OmniMancer: part of the whole point of s-expressions is that they're structures made of cons cells. If you're treating them as lists, you might as well use XML (or at least JSON) 03:07:25 Word. I'm online on my new computer. 03:07:40 gigamonkey: congratulations. 03:07:48 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 03:07:50 except that I want it to be concise 03:08:12 OmniMancer: JSON is pretty concise. 03:08:18 So, not CL s-expressions, then? 03:08:23 and you wouldn't have to write your own parser. 03:08:47 keep in mind, JSON isn't verbose like JS itself. 03:09:12 I want something to simplify the use of commonlisp like syntax from a language that is not common lisp for the purpose of writing things like lisp interpreters or other such things 03:09:51 if you want to write a Lisp interpreter, the best thing to do would be to implement Lisp. Seriously. 03:10:29 and if I want to write a lambda calculus reducer? 03:10:48 Is that really complex enough to warrant simplification? 03:11:12 mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-076-182-103-085.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:11:18 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:11:59 OmniMancer: keep in mind that you're in #lisp. We're gonna recommend that you write pretty much everything in Lisp, except for device drivers and operating systems, and even those have been done. 03:12:12 I'm not. 03:12:19 heh. 03:12:29 I recommend rewriting as little as possible in lisp, due to not being insane. 03:12:55 Zhivago: remind me, are you Kaz? 03:12:59 No. 03:13:12 heh, I'd add general web development as well to that list Adlai, found web development in lisp to be a bit..well, rough 03:13:12 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-166.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:13:19 Zhivago: Particularly /re/writing? 03:14:01 TDT: many wouldn't agree with you 03:14:14 kpreid: Yes. 03:14:54 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-166.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 03:15:58 stassats`: Yeah, perhaps, it's just my own bit of experience so far is why I feel that way. Still being relatively new to lisp, htough, probably explains that 03:16:48 ojuice [i=ojuice@209.164.37.111.static.sna.hosting.com] has joined #lisp 03:17:57 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-166.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Client Quit] 03:18:12 I would just prefer not to have to go to the trouble of writing an s-expression parser in the language. 03:18:55 welcome to programming, where you have to write at least something 03:18:59 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-117.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 03:19:03 So your solution is to ask other people to write it in the language for you? 03:19:11 no 03:19:18 So, how does it get written? 03:19:23 OmniMancer: do you already have a json parser? 03:19:28 no 03:19:33 as far as I know 03:19:43 Because they're both about equally hard/easy to write. 03:19:55 OmniMancer, hmm, considered going the other way around instead? .. take a peek at this; http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/d2425c92cef7465c .. so you read or parse everything lisp already, but can also read or parse other things :) 03:20:01 sexps are easy to parse by design. 03:20:10 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 03:21:06 *shrug* .. dunno what you're doing or what your goal is though .. *heads for more coffee* 03:21:22 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 03:22:05 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 03:22:31 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-221-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:22:35 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:22:54 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 03:23:08 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:23:11 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 03:23:23 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-105-177.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:23:51 *Adlai* lobs a copy of the ANSI spec at the Internet. 03:24:40 Good morning. 03:24:40 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-221-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:44 Morning, beach. 03:25:52 thought it was 12:00AM EST already since beach said good morning 03:25:54 whew 03:26:24 gigamonkey: I'm watching Lispbox build right now on the Windows box. I think this might succeed. 03:26:56 eh, nope, not quite yet... "make exited with Error 2" 03:27:38 Adlai: ah, what are you buliding? (I mean what subcomponent.) 03:28:14 gigamonkey: well, when I sent that message, it was building CCL 1.3, which built successfully. I'm patching up GNUmakefile.portableaserve right now. 03:28:53 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:28:55 You better watch it or you'll end up knowing more about building Lispbox than any person on the planet. 03:29:31 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 03:30:13 Well, maybe I'm not there yet, but I definitely know more about Makefiles than I want to :) 03:30:56 Mmmmm. SLIME needs some more goooglejuice--it's still behind SLIME Flat Tire Repair when you search for "slime" 03:31:34 *Adlai* will link to SLIME when he gets a site. 03:32:24 good idea 03:32:30 *stassats`* goes to link slime 03:33:19 If I had the motivation my web site would be full of pages of info on stuff I know about, and so there would be a link to slime. But I don't get around to writing such things. 03:33:54 kpreid: you don't need to write about it. Just link it! 03:34:46 *you* don't need me to but *I* do 03:34:57 actually, you'd prefer that too 03:35:06 google likes pages with actual content over piles o' links 03:35:25 hm, I can see them being clever like that. 03:35:35 since the latter is easy to game... 03:36:14 eh, gigamonkey, make just finished without errors. This is shocking. 03:37:38 Incoming anchor text :) 03:38:28 -!- vsync____ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit ["ircII EPIC4-2.10 -- Are we there yet?"] 03:38:41 is there a way to remove a proclamation? .. (i think not, but a sbcl specific way is good) 03:38:59 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-181-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:30 a proclamation for a function that is; ftype 03:42:00 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.228.146] has quit [No route to host] 03:43:15 *OmniMancer* shall just write do if its ( make new list, if its ) close list if its anything else chuck string into list 03:43:27 lnostdal: I think you can nullify it if you replace all types with T and re-eval it 03:46:44 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:47:18 hm, the declared type (not derived) still hangs around .. there is probably a very easy way to do this (perhaps via something non-portable in globaldb.lisp or something) 03:49:59 (sb-c::clear-info :function :type 'sum) ;; or so 03:50:38 gigamonkey: what's are you supposed to get from running the makefile on windows? 03:51:41 er, "what" 03:54:11 ..and now i forget why i needed to do this in the first place.. (fmakunbound + re-eval wasn't "good enough" for some reason....) 03:55:24 actual_thunk [n=luke@74-130-86-53.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 03:55:28 -!- npoektop` [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:55:40 Adlai: I'm not sure. 03:55:55 Let me take a quick look and see if I can refresh my memory. 03:56:14 *gigamonkey* is a bit busy having a screaming fit about the typesetting of Coders at Work 03:56:40 ah wait, I think I *might* have found the problem... 03:58:14 At one point the Franz guys hacked it up to build an installer. I can't recall whether I folded that into the official source. 04:00:09 hm, it's not like that with the CLISP version. However, we were talking here in #lisp earlier about producing an MSI installer for it (among other windows-suckage-related issues), so I might do that if I can build a working version first. 04:01:24 however, I seem to remember from when I started Lisping a few months ago with the Allegro/Windows Lispbox, that it did install itself. 04:01:26 -!- actual_thunk is now known as thunk` 04:01:28 *Adlai* checks. 04:04:42 is MSI a funny spelling of NSI 04:04:43 ? 04:04:53 Microsoft Installer 04:05:10 Ah. Franz used NullSoft 04:05:27 Which is a pretty good installer, as far as I know. 04:06:20 I can put you in touch with Kevin Layer at Franz--he did their work on it. 04:06:48 hm, there's an attribution in the lispbox.bat of the clisp version, that's not there in the new-lispbox.bat that I got from the SVN. 04:07:07 I'm looking at the NullSoft website right now... 04:08:26 ah, NullSoft looks great -- you can generate Windows installers on Linux. 04:08:55 -!- arbscht_ is now known as arbscht 04:08:59 well I managed to generate infinite recursion 04:09:05 first though, I need to get the basic program itself to run. 04:09:14 logBot5813 [n=logBot@59.96.43.111] has joined #lisp 04:10:45 logBot6673 [n=logBot@59.96.43.80] has joined #lisp 04:12:33 Has anyone here worked with raw-mode terminal scancodes through cl-ncurses' getch? 04:12:52 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@202.36.179.65] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:14:36 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 04:16:32 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:16:53 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:16:54 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 04:18:09 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 04:21:39 I'm having difficulty portably decoding them on different terminals. Arg. This is more a terminal than a Lisp question I guess. Sorry guys. 04:29:10 -!- logBot5813 [n=logBot@59.96.43.111] has quit [Success] 04:29:38 -!- logBot6673 [n=logBot@59.96.43.80] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:31:24 good morning 04:32:01 -!- felideon [n=user@74.186.235.232] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:33:09 morning. 04:34:54 good morning 04:37:50 ln5 [n=Adium@h199n2c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 04:40:42 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 04:41:20 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:41:58 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@96.250.220.91] has joined #lisp 04:46:28 DougSouth [n=dsouth@203.217.40.161] has joined #lisp 04:48:24 Yay! SLIME up and running on new machine. 04:50:40 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan_ 04:52:32 gigamonkey: it seems as though the version of Lispbox from SVN just renames a gzipped archive with a .zip extension for Windows... 04:53:52 Yay! SBCL 1.0.29 running in SLIME on new box. 04:54:09 Adlai: I could believe that. 04:54:17 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:54:28 I only cvs up my slime installs when something breaks 04:54:32 Quadrescence [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #lisp 04:55:07 it would sometimes be nice if there were slime releases 04:56:33 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 04:56:53 dralston [n=dralston@70.69.230.164] has joined #lisp 05:00:13 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-209-128.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 05:02:02 -!- ln5 [n=Adium@h199n2c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:02:12 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-117.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:03:49 -!- DougSouth [n=dsouth@203.217.40.161] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:04:17 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 05:04:53 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.228.146] has joined #lisp 05:04:54 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:05:00 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 05:06:45 -!- lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-209-128.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 05:06:55 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:07:00 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-128.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 05:10:31 gonzojive_ [n=red@12.53.193.183] has joined #lisp 05:10:38 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:11:09 girzel [n=user@61.51.238.174] has joined #lisp 05:12:21 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:12:37 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 05:13:03 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 05:13:11 gigamonkey: good news, I just got Lispbox to run. Emacs won't start though :) 05:13:42 ShadowChild [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 05:14:41 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 05:15:24 gko [n=gko@114-137-110-54.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:33 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:15:45 htk__ [n=htk___@95.65.241.88] has joined #lisp 05:21:05 Well, that's a start. 05:21:18 Though it's not clear to me what Lispbox running means with no Emacs. 05:22:02 oh, it doesn't start, I just get an error. The good thing is that the shell script (if you call cmd.exe a shell) runs. 05:22:35 the problem with it was actually a bug I introduced, though -- somewhere down the line I had accidentally unixified the CRLFs... 05:22:41 Adlai: well, beers are definitely on me if we ever meet IRL. 05:22:58 gigamonkey: thanks, but wait until it runs :) 05:24:53 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:26:36 Is the "x86" CCL really x86-64? 05:27:02 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 05:27:18 CCL provides both executables in each distribution. When building Lispbox, you can choose which one gets stuck in slime-lisp-implementations 05:28:11 Ah. 05:29:18 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit ["off"] 05:30:07 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.228.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:30:39 gigamonkey: do you care whether I use the fullbin or barebin Emacs distributions? The full distro has the source and documentation, but is larger. 05:34:53 hm, it looks like you used the full distro in the packages on gigamonkeys.com, so I'll do the same. 05:35:59 Sounds right. 05:36:13 I didn't bother trying to strip down Lispbox at all. Figured I'd just break something. 05:36:41 Plus I wanted folks to have the normal emacs docs. 05:36:47 Okay, I'm off to bed. Goodnight folks. 05:36:53 goodnight gigamonkey ! 05:37:04 I think this will fix the problem, too. 05:37:10 arnuld [n=arnuld@unaffiliated/arnuld] has joined #lisp 05:39:06 -!- htk__ [n=htk___@95.65.241.88] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:43:11 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:45:38 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 05:46:05 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest19475 05:47:03 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:47:11 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 05:47:18 lukjadOO7 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 05:47:48 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-27-8.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:47:50 -!- huangjs` [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:48:10 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 05:48:14 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 05:49:41 ln5 [n=Adium@h199n2c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 05:51:26 -!- ln5 [n=Adium@h199n2c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 05:53:21 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-27-8.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:54:52 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 05:55:27 -!- gko [n=gko@114-137-110-54.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:55:28 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-221-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:56:33 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 05:59:31 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 05:59:38 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:00:31 -!- ShadowChild [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:01:21 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit [Client Quit] 06:01:46 Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #lisp 06:03:10 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:03:12 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 06:06:33 -!- thunk` [n=luke@74-130-86-53.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:08:17 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 06:08:27 Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 06:08:39 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:11:55 -!- arnuld [n=arnuld@unaffiliated/arnuld] has quit ["leaving"] 06:12:14 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:12:54 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:15:47 -!- bytbox [n=sclawren@silverchips.mbhs.edu] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:16:42 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:17:21 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 06:18:05 hello 06:22:56 -!- dralston [n=dralston@70.69.230.164] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:25:54 are any SLIME hackers about? I seem to be running up against problems starting SLIME... 06:26:16 (this is with my new Lispbox on Windows, with CCL) 06:26:50 Better post to the mailing list 06:27:22 I'm getting the unfortunately uninformative error message "apply: Spawning child process: invalid argument" whenever I start slime. 06:27:27 hmm. 06:29:12 I have no idea. Try M-x toggle-debug-on-error 06:29:40 Yep, already did. 06:30:42 Grep through the C sources 06:30:48 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 06:31:02 heh, I hope that's a joke... 06:31:25 No not at all. 06:32:00 How else would you find out what's causing something in the C part to fail? 06:32:26 I hope this isn't a problem in the C source code... 06:32:33 emacs itself runs fine. 06:38:07 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D8B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:53 Most likely it's you who does something wrong. 06:40:00 You just have to find out what 06:40:37 -!- Guest19475 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 06:40:46 maybe try tracing emacs execution using ktrace or ptrace or whatever 06:41:25 *Adlai* is using edebug right now. 06:44:06 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:29 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:49:37 herbieB_ [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 06:51:46 nostoi [n=nostoi@251.Red-79-145-125.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:45 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:52:47 morning 06:52:52 hello splittist 06:53:53 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-27-8.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 06:54:09 morning 06:54:35 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:54:47 O idiocy! O failure! O rot of the programming mind! 06:54:59 -!- herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:55:10 *Adlai* chants and whacks head like those monks in Monty Python and the Holy Grail 06:56:03 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:58:36 ln51 [n=Adium@nordutug-gw.nordu.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:15 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 07:01:11 Soulman [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:01:52 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:03:37 Any idea what SWANK-LOADER::UNIQUE-DIRECTORY-NAME used to do? 07:04:46 i guess generating ~/.slime/fasl/2009-08-09/clozure-version_1.4-dev-r12553m-trunk__\(linuxx8664\)-linux-x86-64 07:05:48 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:06:04 why? 07:06:09 heh, thanks. 07:06:32 Lispbox's old asdf extensions call that function. 07:06:39 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:06:56 looks like it got renamed sometime in the past 4 years... 07:06:56 it's now called unique-dir-name 07:07:01 yep :) 07:07:24 and why not use asdf-binary-locations, for, what i guess, similar purpose? 07:07:42 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:47 That's not a progress... unique-directory-name was better a name. 07:07:59 pjb: i agree 07:08:09 meingbg` [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 07:08:27 hm, I'm not sure that it's necessary for Lispbox to use a-b-l; after all, it's designed to be a standalone system for people new to Lisp. 07:08:40 -!- meingbg` [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has left #lisp 07:09:00 OTOH, it could help by at least putting .fasl files in a separate directory, so that source directories are cleaner. 07:09:22 well, that's precisely what abl does 07:09:41 well, it also keeps fasls of different implementations separate. 07:09:57 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:10:10 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:36 that's good, innit? 07:10:40 *Adlai* never thought he'd be happier to see the words "Connected. Let the hacking commence!" 07:11:19 although there are still plenty of minor incompatibilities to fix, as I can see from the numerous compiler warnings in *inferior-lisp*... 07:11:21 and what did aforementioned asdf extension do? 07:11:41 gigamonkey's asdf-extensions.lisp? 07:12:00 yes, with its usage of unique-directory-name 07:13:03 4 things 07:13:24 It's got the portable pathnames lib from PCL inlined in, because asdf can't load it until it's defined. 07:13:30 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 07:13:43 then it's got a method for finding .asd files that doesn't depend on symlinks 07:14:09 then it's got a ~10-line hack-up of asdf-binary-locations 07:14:43 so it does put fasls from different implementations apart? 07:14:49 and then it has a section on "Static Files" that defines methods on asdf:output-files and asdf:perform 07:16:07 yes, it looks that way. 07:16:10 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:13 *stassats`* recalls he was quite happy when he saw "Connected" for his swank in scheme 07:17:00 stassats`: it centralizes fasls in (merge-pathnames (make-relative (component-pathname )) (swank-loader::unique-dir-name)) 07:17:29 what are asdf static files? 07:17:42 er, nvm, asdf manual is pretty friendly... 07:18:46 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:18:47 oh well, i wanted to sleep for another 20 minutes but didn't close lid in time 07:19:22 heh sorry 07:19:34 anybody else know what static files are? they aren't in the asdf manual... 07:20:22 *Adlai* M-.s into the asdf source 07:20:29 prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:10 file that doesn't have output? 07:21:12 HMMM, that wasn't helpful. 07:21:21 stassats`: you mean a file that doesn't get compiled? 07:21:40 like dependence that just must exists 07:21:46 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@251.Red-79-145-125.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 07:21:46 oh, yes, I see now. it's the superclass of doc-file and html-file 07:22:22 like phony in makefile 07:22:45 (i heard you are learning makefiles) 07:22:52 oh god tell me about it :) 07:22:53 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:23:00 it doesn't seem the same though. 07:23:13 phony targets only get built if you explicitly depend on them 07:23:27 static files are just files that don't get compiled, but are depended upon. 07:23:30 jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 07:24:25 well, then perhaps you are learning good 07:25:04 thanks. 07:27:30 hmm, what slime fancyness should I bestow upon the Lispbox... 07:27:54 slime-fancy 07:27:57 ShadowChild [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 07:28:00 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:28:20 -!- lukjadOO7 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:28:31 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.35.147] has joined #lisp 07:28:47 some might suggest slime-asdf, but it's crazy 07:28:55 HG` [n=HG@85.8.90.253] has joined #lisp 07:29:07 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:29:09 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 07:29:12 good morning 07:29:16 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 07:29:23 do we have something even remotely resembling a message queue in CL? not an in-memory queue, but something external shared by multiple processes and multiple nodes in the network? 07:29:43 anyway, no one will read manual about all fancynness 07:29:43 good morning 07:30:03 and even not everything is well documented 07:30:05 I think I am trying greenspun half of J2EE and Erlang into a hunchentoot stack :-P 07:31:13 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 07:31:13 newbies nowadays like videos, so maybe it'd be better to screen new version of slime.mov 07:31:45 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-0-142.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:31:47 hmm, I think slime-editing-commands might also be good. 07:32:48 maybe optional paredit? 07:33:25 oooh, that's a good idea. It should just be loaded, and if the user wants, they can M-x paredit 07:33:54 were you joking about slime-asdf by the way? I've been using it and I thought it was standard... 07:33:55 slime-editing-commands are loaded through slime-fancy 07:34:28 Adlai`: it highlights gazillion of notes on a billion of files 07:34:35 screw the newbies, let's help the old farts 07:34:35 ah yes, I didn't notice them. 07:34:42 fusss: I once read about gbbopen, a blackboard system where you can define "event functions" which are called whenever something specific occurs 07:34:44 fusss: heh this is for the newbies... 07:34:58 stassats`: true... I guess I'll leave that out. 07:35:16 kami-: i have gbbopen in emacs full cross referenced ;-) 07:35:28 jd8hh57 [n=mickey@host217-34-51-26.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 07:35:50 fusss: is it suitable for a message queue_ 07:35:55 ? 07:35:57 maybe notes are good, but not when you deal with mcclim 07:36:06 kami-: hard to tell; i have seen simpler stuff out there 07:36:16 POLL: should I include the hyperspec, for C-c C-d h, or should I just let the newbs wait for the online hyperspec to load? 07:36:19 to be honest, i like xml-rpc 07:36:21 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:36:31 hm, that's interesting. 07:36:33 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 07:36:48 fusss: it seems to be much more powerful than a simple message queue 07:37:03 Adlai: can you legally? 07:37:09 kami-: too much more powerful than a simple message queue, overkill 07:37:22 oh, true, distributing it might be a problem. 07:37:30 you can have it as an optional package, anyway 07:37:33 (you can download copies for personal use legally) 07:37:50 but do newbies use clhs too often? 07:38:11 If giga mentions it in PCL's 2nd Ed., they might :) 07:38:32 you can implement a way to download it easily :) 07:38:40 well, I'm pretty sure he mentions the spec, but I don't think he mentions C-c C-d h 07:38:47 debian has clhs in non-free 07:39:03 and C-c C-d ~ and C-c C-d # 07:39:08 don't talk to me about debian! I migrated from Ubuntu to Arch. 07:40:12 stassats`: oh, those two are neat 07:40:18 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:40:51 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:43:10 htk__ [n=htk___@95.65.241.88] has joined #lisp 07:43:35 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:43:40 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:43 thunk` [n=luke@74-130-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 07:44:01 -!- thunk` [n=luke@74-130-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has left #lisp 07:44:07 thunk` [n=luke@74-130-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 07:45:21 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-23-33.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:49:57 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:51:06 Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 07:51:29 any idea why this message would occur after ,quit: "Wrong type argument: stringp, \.\.\." 07:52:51 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 07:53:03 actually, the full message is: 07:53:28 "Please answer y or n. "Wrong type argument: string, \\.\\.\\." while saving the history. Continue? (y or n)" 07:53:30 *matimago* doesn't like videos. Too long to watch! 07:53:57 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 07:53:57 you can fast-forward 07:54:02 *Adlai* isn't even sure where the error is coming from... fires up edebug again :( 07:54:14 Adlai: backtrace? 07:54:22 stassats`: that message is in Emacs 07:54:22 (setq debug-on-error t) 07:54:28 stassats`: not really. You cannot fast listen the videos, they don't implement the right software for the sound track. 07:54:40 oh, that might work. heh, I lost faith in debug-on-error after it failed me earlier 07:54:58 Browsing a text file is easier. Your can find the interesting words faster. 07:55:29 hm, debug-on-error fails yet again. 07:55:35 how so? 07:55:46 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:55:52 It just doesn't pop up a backtrace :\ 07:56:10 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:56:13 you don't have slime compiled? 07:56:48 this would be solved by compiling slime? 07:56:55 no 07:57:29 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:24 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:01:14 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 08:02:01 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:02:13 AntiSpamMeta: what kind of bot are you? 08:02:23 anti spam 08:02:31 in a bit more detail... 08:02:32 :) 08:02:54 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:59 -!- htk__ [n=htk___@95.65.241.88] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:03:00 Adlai: what is the value of slime-repl-history-file 08:03:42 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 08:04:15 -!- thunk` [n=luke@74-130-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:06:11 "~/.slime-history.eld" 08:06:26 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.155] has joined #lisp 08:06:27 what's in this file? 08:06:39 well, in short, delete it and try again 08:09:08 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.155] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:09:17 and if this doesn't help, try to get a backtrace really 08:09:29 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.155] has joined #lisp 08:09:30 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@12.53.193.183] has quit [] 08:09:44 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-77-70.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:10:36 stassats`: looks like it doesn't exist. 08:10:57 oh well, gotta to the movies 08:10:58 I'll try edebug on slime-save-history 08:11:10 stassats`: ok, thanks for all your help. have a good time. 08:12:17 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-181-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:13:34 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2483.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:47 uhoh. The error is coming from #'substring-no-properties, which "is a built-in function in `C source code'." 08:14:47 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["Quitter!"] 08:15:25 Adlai: 08:15:26 . 08:15:41 matimago: indeed? 08:15:50 Adlai: \.\.\. is not a string. (type-of '\.\.\.) --> symbol 08:16:24 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:16:27 yep, I know. I'm trying to figure out now why a symbol is being given to substring-no-properties 08:16:44 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 08:16:46 luckily, edebug is my friend. 08:16:49 Well, it should be clear with debug-on-error t, you'd get a backtrace. 08:17:09 nope. it seems as though I'm not friends with debug-on-error... 08:18:11 Adlai: the only case I know where debug-on-error t doesn't give a backtrace, is when there is already one, ie when you're already "running in the debugger". Find the *Backtrace* buffer, and type q (or kill it), and try again. 08:19:12 this is the second time today that debug-on-error hasn't been useful. edebug mode is pretty neat though. 08:19:24 ok. Use what works for you. 08:20:17 yep, I can see in edebug mode that the last element in the list that #'substring-no-properties gets mapped on is \.\.\. 08:20:53 *Adlai* tries the same experiment on his working slime setup to see whether this is lispbox and/or windows specific. 08:27:35 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.35.147] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:27:38 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 08:29:39 matimago: hehe, what does \.\.\. look like to you? 08:29:45 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 08:29:53 ignas [n=ignas@79.132.160.221] has joined #lisp 08:32:09 -!- ignas [n=ignas@79.132.160.221] has quit [Client Quit] 08:32:38 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 08:33:56 -!- jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 08:39:05 fgtech [n=federico@host187-225-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:40:14 jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:40:30 Adlai: ... 08:41:07 you know how when you have a list that's longer than *print-length* elements, it gets truncated with ...? 08:41:08 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:41:34 so somewhere, Emacs or SLIME is turning that ... into a '... on the emacs side of things. 08:42:42 I was thinking that somebody would have done that, but somebody by hand, not by program :-?! 08:43:51 CL uses #, so it must be emacs print-length ; See also print-level. 08:44:46 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.223.102] has joined #lisp 08:46:51 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:49:17 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:39 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-181-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:43 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:51:31 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:52:27 what do you mean by "CL uses #"? 08:52:52 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:53:45 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:48 I thought that it would use #\# instead of "..." in (let ((*print-depth* 2) (*print-length* 3)) (prin1-to-string '(1 (1 (1 2 3 4 5 6) 3 4 5 6) 3 4 5 6))) --> "(1 (1 (1 2 3 ...) 3 ...) 3 ...)" 08:54:36 Arg! It's *print-level* 08:54:39 (let ((*print-level* 2) (*print-length* 3)) (prin1-to-string '(1 (1 (1 2 3 4 5 6) 3 4 5 6) 3 4 5 6))) --> "(1 (1 # 3 ...) 3 ...)" 08:54:51 So it uses ... for *print-length* and # for *print-level*. 08:55:13 looks like this is emacs-side though. 08:55:47 I'm not so sure, since it tries to process it emacs-side, it must come from CL, no? 08:55:48 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-106-231.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:56:21 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:56:25 locci [n=nes@93.37.223.102] has joined #lisp 08:57:17 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.223.102] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:57:28 -!- locci is now known as carlocci 08:57:58 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:58:23 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-77-70.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:58:26 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:59:07 when I start up a slime repl, and then `M-: slime-repl-input-history', I get a list of stuff that ends with ..., not \.\.\., so it looks as though Emacs has the full list and handles it incorrectly. 08:59:13 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:59:21 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 09:00:50 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-77-70.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 09:02:29 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:06:36 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:29 oh god, I just found the bug. 09:09:36 I understand now why people hate Windows. 09:10:32 yay for hating windows 09:10:42 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 09:11:31 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:10 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:12:28 would you believe that ~ is a different directory in different places? 09:12:53 ~/.slime => C:/Documents and Settings/Adlai/ 09:13:09 ~/.slime-history.eld => C:/Documents and Settings/Adlai/Application Data/ 09:13:16 wtf???? 09:13:32 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:20:21 ?? 09:20:39 set %home% to %user% too 09:20:49 hm? 09:22:06 at least on XP %user% is C:\Documents and Settings\ 09:22:38 but AFAIK %home% is not set by default 09:23:30 how do I find out the values of those variables???? `echo %USER%' just echoes %USER% 09:23:43 hmmm 09:23:48 then its not set :/ 09:24:09 -!- jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 09:24:27 *Adlai* will turn into a raving lunatic if he keeps hacking this Windows stuff much longer. 09:24:58 that's why I use sbcl emacs and slime installed manually... 09:25:13 OmniMancer: hm? what do you mean? 09:25:16 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-77-70.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:25:27 jhalogen [n=jake@98.154.251.83] has joined #lisp 09:25:44 I'm not using Lispbox; I'm trying to build an up-to-date binary. The last binaries were created in 2005. 09:25:57 binary for? 09:26:12 Lispbox. 09:26:19 the official binaries are very old. 09:26:26 oh 09:26:45 go get latest windows build of sbcl 09:26:53 get emacs windows binaries 09:26:54 I don't use Windows. 09:27:05 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D32F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:05 get slime 09:27:14 ... 09:27:23 staple together manually 09:27:23 eh, I've actually built a Lispbox binary already. I know how to get software packages for windows. 09:27:51 OmniMancer: please stop. I've been patching 5-year-old makefiles that staple that stuff together for the past . 09:28:09 -!- Soulman [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:28:17 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:28:35 um 09:29:03 %homepath% is the path to users home dir without drive %homedrive% is users home drive 09:29:37 -!- dto [n=user@cpe-24-31-141-95.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:29:46 http://www.adp-gmbh.ch/win/misc/environment_variables.html 09:31:11 Soulman [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 09:34:53 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:38:16 -!- jd8hh57 [n=mickey@host217-34-51-26.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has left #lisp 09:40:50 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:41:39 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:41:57 -!- seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:42:49 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-181-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:43:02 Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 09:43:20 morning 09:44:01 hello bulibuta 09:46:50 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:53 _phil2488887 [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has joined #lisp 09:52:56 -!- Soulman [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:55:53 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:56:43 -!- girzel [n=user@61.51.238.174] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:57:31 -!- _phil2488887 [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has quit [Client Quit] 09:57:55 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:58:00 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-150-135.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:00:36 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 10:01:44 mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 10:03:07 serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-141-61.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:11:06 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:13:33 -!- jhalogen [n=jake@98.154.251.83] has quit [] 10:15:38 -!- ShadowChild is now known as lukjad007 10:17:20 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host187-225-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:18:33 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:19:42 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@96.250.220.91] has quit [] 10:19:44 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:20:03 kerimbasol_ [n=kerim@212.156.48.66] has joined #lisp 10:20:27 greetings 10:22:04 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.75.138] has joined #lisp 10:24:34 jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:24:58 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 10:31:13 -!- pve [i=pjetter@melkinpaasi.cs.helsinki.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:35:27 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.73.151] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:37:59 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:39:23 and [n=and@studbud.com.ua] has joined #lisp 10:40:00 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 10:41:52 billstclair [n=billstcl@65.219.213.137] has joined #lisp 10:45:51 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:50:33 pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 10:51:37 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has left #lisp 10:52:37 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Operation timed out] 10:54:29 jewel [n=jewel@41.242.163.86] has joined #lisp 10:54:30 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:55:35 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 10:55:51 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [] 10:56:00 luke_ [n=luke@ppp58C1.dsl.pacific.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:56:23 -!- luke_ [n=luke@ppp58C1.dsl.pacific.net.au] has quit [Client Quit] 10:57:58 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:58:51 Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@95.84.21.44] has joined #lisp 10:59:06 hi attila_lendvai, following your advice, I tried a slot type of (text 1000) which didn't work (single line input upon editing). html-text seems to be correct, but throws a js error: Error: Tried to register widget with id==_u754 but that id is already registered' 10:59:52 kami-: isn't that only with AJAX enabled? i've fixed that in the head 11:00:19 attila_lendvai: let me check if I have ajax enabled. 11:00:45 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-139-131.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 11:01:03 no, I have ":ajax-enabled #f". when did you fix, it 11:01:06 ? 11:02:14 in the unstable, but if it happens without ajax then it's something else 11:03:02 fgtech [n=federico@host187-225-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:03:14 benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-121-222-151-199.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:03:49 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host187-225-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:04:13 -!- and [n=and@studbud.com.ua] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:09:00 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:09:53 attila_lendvai: is it this one: fix AJAX: dectroy dijit widgets that are renewed in an ajax response? 11:10:29 -!- benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-121-222-151-199.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:10:52 benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-121-222-151-199.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:11:03 Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 11:11:04 -!- benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-121-222-151-199.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Client Quit] 11:11:34 benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-121-222-151-199.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:11:48 -!- pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:13:02 -!- benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-121-222-151-199.qld.bigpond.net.au] has left #lisp 11:14:12 kami-: yes 11:14:37 benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-121-222-151-199.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:21:21 jd8hh57 [n=mickey@host217-34-51-26.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 11:24:22 attila_lendvai: where does the client side js output go? 11:25:01 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 11:25:38 qidush_ [n=qidush@c83-252-27-42.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:25:42 kami-: "js output"? 11:26:02 kami-: if you mean debug log then it goes into the firebug console 11:26:08 -!- qidush [n=qidush@83.252.27.42] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:26:24 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:28:35 attila_lendvai: yes. thank you. 11:29:17 -!- benbos67 [n=ben@CPE-121-222-151-199.qld.bigpond.net.au] has left #lisp 11:36:15 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-axjekkugzojwaczi] has left #lisp 11:38:10 qidush [n=qidush@c83-252-27-42.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:39:13 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit ["HULK ANGRY! HULK DISCONNECT!"] 11:39:44 pdenno [n=pdenno@bigfuzz.mxnet.mel.nist.gov] has joined #lisp 11:39:58 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:40:10 -!- qidush_ [n=qidush@c83-252-27-42.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:40:50 lat__ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 11:42:51 Hm. 11:43:16 Today CVS SBCL builds more reliably with CLISP than 1.0.30... 11:43:35 -!- jd8hh57 [n=mickey@host217-34-51-26.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 11:43:47 attila_lendvai: dojo is trying to register the dijit.Editor twice. And it happens only when a html-text slot is to be edited. 11:44:11 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:46:24 ASau: "builds more reliably"? 11:47:31 2/2 instead of 1/7. 11:48:44 How does 1.0.30 fail? 11:49:12 You have to wait a bit. 11:49:41 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-106-231.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 11:49:48 As for CVS, it still has problem with flock. 11:49:52 Obviously, much less so than with CLISP. 11:49:55 Why do you run tests as you build? 11:50:48 "SB!XC" is already a package name. 11:50:48 Continue, using possibly bogus file "obj/from-host/src/compiler/ir1util.lisp-obj" 11:50:53 (As usual.) 11:51:06 Do you want full log? 11:51:40 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:51:44 clisp doesn't provide a sensible way to exit on error without reading the rest of the input stream 11:52:03 you want ./make.sh 'clisp -ansi -on-error abort', and things might end up working better 11:52:17 Hm! 11:52:20 ("-on-error abort" doesn't in fact abort on error) 11:52:26 I'll test it. 11:52:47 I'm impressed by your nondeterminism, too 11:52:50 how are you getting that? 11:52:50 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 11:53:13 demmel [n=demmel@dslb-188-098-219-240.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:16 Oh, CVS/clisp is more reliable than 1.0.30/clisp. That makes a bit more sense. 11:54:40 So, you mean, that "-on-error abort" is broken. Do I understand it right? 11:55:34 ShadowChild [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 11:56:31 no, -on-error abort does what it's documented to do, it's just not (as you might expect) to abort on all errors 11:56:32 BTW, is it possible that build depends on environment (very sensitive)? 11:57:03 and I'm saying that you will have more success building with clisp if you pass it the flags '-ansi -on-error abort' 11:57:27 pkhuong: really? I don't understand it 11:58:12 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 11:58:27 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:11 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.242.163.86] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:01:25 -!- daniel_ is now known as daneil 12:01:27 -!- daneil is now known as daniel 12:03:24 Xof: compared to CVS/clisp building better than CVS/1.0.30 12:03:53 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:03:59 oh, ok, that one's completely incomprehensible 12:04:14 I'm still not clear what's going on 12:04:16 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:05:32 fgtech [n=federico@87.8.225.187] has joined #lisp 12:06:56 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:02 -!- Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@95.84.21.44] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:07:49 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:08:52 c|mell [n=cmell@p3138-ipngn1401marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:10:15 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229175250.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:12:09 -!- patmatch [n=wmbot@dsl093-216-036.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:13:18 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:13:54 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:14:02 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:15:37 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:01 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 12:19:14 wiki.alu.org gives Service Temporarily Unavailable 12:19:16 dto [n=user@cpe-24-31-141-95.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:19:38 So people searching Lisp Success_stories are again in the black... 12:20:21 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:28:50 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.192.253] has joined #lisp 12:29:17 -!- mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-076-182-103-085.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.82.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]"] 12:30:33 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-221-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:47 htk__ [n=htk___@188.3.226.150] has joined #lisp 12:34:59 -!- pdenno [n=pdenno@bigfuzz.mxnet.mel.nist.gov] has left #lisp 12:37:51 -!- dto [n=user@cpe-24-31-141-95.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:37:58 dto [n=user@cpe-24-31-141-95.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:40:52 in the dark? 12:40:57 "in the black" is usually a good thing 12:42:53 -!- jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 12:43:39 why has the ALU had so much trouble? 12:43:52 (it seems to perpetually exist as an internet archive...) 12:44:56 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-73-19.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:45:31 crod [n=cmell@p14220-ipngn1701marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:45:34 jd8hh57 [n=mickey@host217-34-51-26.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 12:49:07 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:51:24 billstclai [n=billstcl@dsl-65-219-213-137.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:33 Adlai: keeping the wiki going is not, as i understand it, any particular person's job 12:52:12 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:52:16 -!- billstclai is now known as billstclair 12:53:18 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p3138-ipngn1401marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:56:10 hyperbor1ean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 12:56:21 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:59:17 -!- hyperbor1ean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Client Quit] 12:59:20 -!- dto [n=user@cpe-24-31-141-95.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:59:23 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 13:00:23 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 13:00:23 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:01:14 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-204.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:04:11 tormoz [n=tormoz__@91.149.158.53] has joined #lisp 13:05:22 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:36 attila_lendvai: I would like to keep a reference to some objects in a persistent-process. But, I don't want them to be serialised into the DB. Is there a good way of doing this? 13:05:44 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 13:08:12 kami-: pprocesses are entities, they can have slots that you can read/write from the process. or if you are worried about serialization size, then persistent-objects are serialized so that only their id is serialized... 13:08:24 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:20 Good morning..well, evening for some of you :) 13:10:00 attila_lendvai: OK. Then, I'll give it a try. 13:10:20 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:11:29 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 13:11:51 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:13:19 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 13:13:51 prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:27 -!- prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 13:15:36 jollygood_ [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 13:16:04 kami- pasted "dwim persistent-process error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85652 13:16:18 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:16:29 attila_lendvai: serializer refuses to serialize something 13:16:43 attila_lendvai: when I start the pp 13:17:55 jleija [n=jleija@24.214.122.46] has joined #lisp 13:18:25 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:19:25 kami-: most probably you have a non-cc closure among the variables of the pprocess continuation 13:20:48 cracki [n=cracki@45-197.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:21:40 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:21:46 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 13:21:47 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 13:23:11 thunk` [n=luke@74-130-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 13:25:20 Xach: you watched the whole Weinreb talk? 13:26:29 gigamonkey: i did. 13:27:07 i was hoping it was more like "here's the architecture of my transaction processing program", but i found it pretty interesting anyway. 13:27:51 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #lisp 13:28:16 He didn't, by chance, give a plug for Coders at Work, did he? 13:28:26 attila_lendvai: it was a with-locale which I had wrapped around most of the :form 13:28:35 i don't remember a plug like that. he plugged Practical Common Lisp with enthusiasm. 13:28:43 Cool. 13:29:12 (We had talked about the Coders at Work plug when we had lunch the other day but I imagine he couldn't find a way to work it in.) 13:29:16 gigaminkey: listening to it now, so will watch out for a plug. 13:29:38 minkey - lol! 13:30:03 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit ["leaving"] 13:30:25 gigamonkey: I got Lispbox to run! I then made a change that broke it again, and got sick of hacking on Windows, but it does run. If I can't fix it I'll just revert to the commit that worked. 13:31:17 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:32:03 Yay! 13:32:43 tcr [n=tcr@138.246.7.145] has joined #lisp 13:32:50 One suggestion that people have made is to use asdf-binary-locations rather than the middle half of asdf-extensions.lisp 13:33:05 what's your opinion on that? 13:33:26 Refresh me on what "the middle half" does? 13:33:42 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:33:49 Probably, though, that's right. I use asdf-binary-locations myself in my normal environment. 13:33:50 There are four parts to asdf-extensions.lisp 13:34:04 first, a section that patches asdf to work without symlinks. 13:34:16 Has anyone really used icle a whole lot? Kinda curious if it's what I'm thinking it should be. Originally I thought it was a data mining library written in lisp, but the more I've looked at it, the more it looks like a tool used in a classroom for some bits of machine learning. 13:34:26 then, two sections that implement a very limited asdf-binary-locations 13:34:50 and the last section is an "inlined" version of the pathnames library, because you can't load it until you've loaded it :) 13:35:04 Right. I remember that. 13:35:19 attila_lendvai: how can I prevent the standard inspector from printing separator dots for an integer slot? 13:35:31 Presumably the need for the pathnames library might go away if we got rid of the other bit. 13:35:44 ah, another question which I had is whether you still care for "Just Lisp" or "No Emacs" distributions of Lispbox. 13:36:29 Well, there are a couple issues. 13:37:11 One theory of the No Emacs distribution was that there were people who already used Emacs but who still stumbled over installing SLIME and a Lisp and getting them hooked up. 13:37:43 The other potential use for the No Emacs Lispbox would be to install a new Lisp into an existing Lispbox installation. 13:37:49 -!- jollygood_ [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:37:58 wasn't the second one the "Just Lisp" distribution? 13:38:08 Oh, maybe. 13:38:38 those two confused me for a while, and I think that I broke the support for them... :\ 13:38:38 Anyway, both of those become more interesting/important the more Lispbox becomes a viable long-term environment. 13:39:03 Well, I stopped distributing the No Emacs ones a long time ago because they mostly just confused people. 13:39:17 dto [n=user@cpe-24-31-141-95.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:39:20 gigamonkey: just finished watching the Weinreb talk - no plug for Coders At Work, but lots of praise for PCL. 13:39:32 jd8hh57: well, I'll have to live with that I guess. ;-) 13:39:49 IMHO if you're supplying lisp in a box, you'd better give too much connections to it. The beginning user doesn't really care about the fact he has just installed too much software, as he knows he'll understand how to install the correct bits once he gets to know the software better 13:40:07 well, I'll put priority on getting the basic Lispbox to work. 13:40:22 kami-: don't know offhand, it's using cl-l10n's format-number, search for that 13:40:38 Lispbox can be one of two things: 1. a set of training wheels to get people going until they're going fast enough to get over the hurdle of setting up a "real" environment, or 2. A Lisp environment that one might use forever. 13:41:00 #2 implies being able to upgrade parts and install new libraries, etc. 13:41:02 I've also been reading about NSIS, and I think it might even be better, for Windows at least, to just supply an NSIS installer that grabbed the relevant packages and set everything up on the new system. 13:41:26 gigamonkey: perhaps there should not be 'one' lispbox then? 13:41:28 And #2 can conflict with #1 if it means the new user is faced with too many choices at the beginning. 13:41:58 gigamonkey: I think most new lispers have someone to help them get started.... I had you guys (xach in particular) 13:42:12 madnificent: that's not my impression at the moment 13:42:35 Xach: many lispers without *any* help or a connection to irc? 13:42:39 madnificent: it seems like many new lispers try it and think "i'm so alone and special in this endeavor!" and give up after writing something a little silly 13:42:52 at least that's the impression i get from scanning blogs 13:43:07 or "my friend and i are learning lisp because we're bored at university" 13:43:10 *madnificent* backs away in this argument about hunches, as you probably know better 13:43:41 madnificent: not all lispers... I spent about two months using Lispbox with Allegro and having no clue how to customize SLIME or Emacs before I got a Linux system and learned by setting stuff up myself. 13:43:53 madnificent: well, i just want to expand the view to include more stuff. people in #lisp get feedback and help, but this is a small community in a larger lisp-universe 13:43:53 so, there should certainly be a lispbox for beginners... cups does a good thing too (if only it wasn't such a pita to install) 13:44:36 Xach: you shoudn't pay too much attention to what was that guy's name, obsessed with Paul Graham. 13:44:40 Xach: I assume there are other endeavors like #lisp or #cl-gardeners, wrong? 13:45:19 madnificent: they can be very different. the lispworks user group is great, but it's a completely different kind of audience. same with the clozure cl mailing list. 13:45:41 AllegroCL was very popular among the industry presenters at ILC 2009 13:45:43 gigamonkey: what do you think of including some "canonical" libraries in Lispbox? 13:46:20 ie, CL-PPCRE, CFFI, Drakma 13:46:22 Adlai: I'm in favor of it. 13:46:31 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:47:43 *Adlai* takes notes for when he gets his Windows patience back. 13:48:04 actually, I should probably update the Linux binaries as well... 13:48:27 <_3b> could also be nice to have an easy way to package up a set of libs for use with it 13:48:36 *madnificent* actually gave up on building a windows lisp environment for a new lisper (given that slime was not an option, cusp was a pita) 13:49:02 _3b: yes. 13:49:26 in cuspses defence, I don't have a windows available to myself, so verbal commands did make it harder... but if I wasn't virtually forcing the guy to learn lisp, he wouldn't have 13:49:29 madnificent: what was the problem with cusp? 13:50:42 user82 [n=user@203-219-131-38.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:50:45 kami-: on linux (which is the only thing for which I can tell you) it seems that it needs the latest sun jdk. That means that neither gentoo, nor ubuntu or debian (and I reccon many other distributions) don't select that as standard. This is something silly, but unclear error messages basically mess up the user experience from there on 13:50:51 hey guys if your bored try facebook zombies :D - http://apps.facebook.com/zombies/links.php?r=719927515&nref=st 13:50:51 -!- user82 [n=user@203-219-131-38.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Client Quit] 13:51:18 besides that, I had to point to the sbcl instance myself (instead of taking the one on their find/install thing) 13:51:38 and I don't think their library manager really did the thing. I've set up clbuild for that now 13:51:57 these things are *minor*, I know... but for a beginning lisper, they are more than enough to stop him from learning it 13:52:02 Xach: you know the blogger I'm talking about. What was his name again? 13:52:07 *Adlai* wanders off for a bit. 13:52:17 Brucio! 13:52:48 if anybody has any more brilliant ideas for more things to patch into Lispbox... leave me a memo... :) 13:52:49 madnificent: after resolving those issues, did it work smoothly? How does it compare to slime? 13:53:02 gigamonkey: brucio apparently gave up after achieving victory 13:53:06 Oh noes! Brucio's blog is gone. 13:54:04 nyef: did you write a nes emulator once? 13:54:34 kami-: I don't use it myself, and I feel handicapped in eclipse. Yet for persons that do not know emacs and have used eclipse, it works fairly well. It crashes from time to time, somehow killing the lisp instance (this might've been due to it running on an old via c3 667mhz with 256Mb memory). It isn't always the smoothest experience, but it is roughly as good as java ide's where 4 years ago 13:54:46 gigamonkey: shouldn't you be happy about that? 13:55:34 kami-: you can probably ship a 'fully featured' cusp installation which would solve the installation issues 13:56:13 and I personally find cusp to be fairly mature. I would (and do) advise it to new lispers 13:56:13 Brucio didn't make the cut for Coders at Work 13:56:32 madnificent: thank you. eclipse itself would probably crash very often with that little memory. 13:58:18 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.22] has joined #lisp 13:58:47 kami-: it only had to run eclipse and postgresql without much data (nxServer for sending the view to windows). I'll try tell you about the experience of the user on the decent machine he received (only uses it within a week, and I'll see him only in two weeks). I reccon it will help a lot 13:59:32 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:00:05 -!- fgtech [n=federico@87.8.225.187] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:00:17 madnificent: thanks for sharing your experience. 14:01:31 kami-: yw 14:01:33 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:01:38 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 14:02:10 kami-: do you develop for it? 14:03:23 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-160-168-237.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:03:26 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 14:03:29 morning 14:03:33 madnificent: no. I know some people who are used to eclipse and want to try CL. As they don't know much about emacs, it'd probably be easier to sell cusp to them. 14:04:01 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:04:24 kami-: if they know eclipse, they'll probably like it. Make sure they select fuzzy completion and that they understand that there is a repl to toy with :) 14:04:59 madnificent: will do. 14:05:54 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 14:06:10 kami-: oh, and download the latest eclipse from eclipse.org, it seems to be unhappy with many other lisps 14:06:17 s/lisps/eclipses 14:07:00 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:35 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:33 -!- kerimbasol_ [n=kerim@212.156.48.66] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:11:38 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.17.169] has joined #lisp 14:12:08 Does eclipse have an option to make TAB indent the current line yet? 14:13:23 luis: eclipse + cusp indents the top-level sexp when tabbing on a sexp with enough opening/closing braces. It seems to behave somewhat differently than slime on that part 14:15:01 Another editor detail that I can't live without these days is join-line. Seriously it's just painfully to edit code without it. 14:15:22 luis: there is nothing like paredit that I know of ^_^ 14:15:23 I'm surprised emacs doesn't have a default binding AFAICT. 14:16:38 madnificent: join-line is not from paredit, if that's what you're saying. But paredit is quite nice yeah. Emacs is easy to get started with, but not with paredit. :) 14:16:58 luis: M-^ 14:17:30 On the following line. Otherwise C-n M-^ 14:17:33 ah, you're right... I don't use it that often :) 14:17:34 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:17:51 Riastradh: doh. Thanks for setting me straight. 14:17:54 M-^ is a pita to type though 14:18:04 Yeah, I use C-Backspace 14:18:06 madnificent: local-set-key 14:18:19 or even global-set-key 14:19:11 yes, I could/should modify it 14:20:14 -!- tormoz [n=tormoz__@91.149.158.53] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:23:31 man, restarts are great 14:24:28 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.192.253] has quit [] 14:25:50 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:26:42 backward-kill-word? 14:26:47 *weirdo* vi user, uses C-w 14:27:01 i mean, i have a keybinding like this in emacs 14:27:23 bummer, slot-value-using-class isn't called for standard metaclass 14:27:34 i thought i could get way with not defining a new metaclass 14:27:35 oh well 14:28:47 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.17.169] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:29:24 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has joined #lisp 14:29:57 hey weirdo are you using sbcl, if so maybe you can get away with setting the slot-definition reader-function/writer-function slots 14:32:36 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-69.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:37:24 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-73-19.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 14:37:49 -!- jd8hh57 [n=mickey@host217-34-51-26.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:38:03 jd8hh57 [n=mickey@host217-34-51-26.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 14:38:04 ArtVandalae [n=SuperUnk@220-253-25-96.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 14:39:59 This is a great day for me. I have installed Emacs 23.1.50.1, and have SBCL running a small program processing a unicode file, and showing the results in Emacs. I have worked toward being able to do this for several years, and this is very exciting to me. Many thanks to all of you that work on SBCL. So far I am extremely impressed! Thanks also to all who develop slime, which also is extremely impressive. My decision to learn Lisp is paying off even more than I 14:40:00 had hoped. 14:40:25 you're welcome 14:41:50 Hi guys, I'm learning to write macros, and I've hit a small problem: I've created a fifo-pop macro: (defmacro fifo-pop (l) (car l)). I then test it with (fifo-pop '(1 2 3)) But it keeps coming back with an error "Quote has no value"? It's probably because I'm not escaping something, but I can't for the life of me see what. Any ideas? 14:43:03 ArtVandalae: add a (print l) before (car l). 14:44:01 Oh :D 14:44:12 -!- ln51 [n=Adium@nordutug-gw.nordu.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:44:18 (fifo-pop (1 2 3)) works, makes sense now, thanks matimago 14:45:12 ArtVandalae: notice that you cannot call (fifo-pop f) Since f is a non-nil symbol, and (car 'f) cannot work. 14:46:03 ArtVandalae: when writing macros, you must be very clear on what kind of arguments (variables, expressions that will be evaluated, non-evaluated data, or code) and if, when and how they're evaluated. 14:49:20 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.155] has quit ["off"] 14:52:36 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 14:53:46 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.147.136] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:53:54 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.58.5] has joined #lisp 14:54:31 mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.177] has joined #lisp 14:55:34 ArtVandalae: so, if you wanted to have CAR evaluated at run-time you would have to return a form, a s-expression that would do so: (defmacro fifo-pop (fifo-variable) (list 'car fifo-variable)) ; (macroexpand '(fifo-pop f)) --> (CAR F) ; T 14:56:20 Yay, the book goes to the printer today! I can stop fighting with Apress about typesetting. 14:56:32 What do they want? 14:56:39 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:56:52 matimago: that to me? 14:58:23 Yes. 14:58:51 gigamonkey: congrats. What does a 'two week' print run mean? 14:58:52 (I tend to skip the nickname when it's not ambiguous, but I may fail this later test...). 14:59:08 Si it's time to order it from Amazon. 14:59:13 /Si/So/ 14:59:22 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:02:13 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:02:20 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:03:06 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:17 gigamonkey: and you find it decent enough? 15:04:34 jewel [n=jewel@41.242.163.86] has joined #lisp 15:05:12 -!- prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:05:26 Mildly OT: when doing a git pull and getting a conflict, is there some one-liner that says "take the remote version"? [used for asdf, hence somewhat on topic] 15:06:15 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 15:06:57 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:07:02 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:07:15 testuser1627 [i=d9af0b4d@gateway/web/freenode/x-hpxiianafjxbmafl] has joined #lisp 15:07:40 -!- testuser1627 [i=d9af0b4d@gateway/web/freenode/x-hpxiianafjxbmafl] has left #lisp 15:07:47 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:47 milanj [n=milan@93.86.186.243] has joined #lisp 15:10:14 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:10:25 splittist: that means that they finish printing it in two weeks. 15:10:30 rpg: git stash save, git pull, git stash apply 15:10:37 Then it's got to be shipped to bookstores. 15:10:46 rpg: or just git reset --hard 15:11:00 I'm told I'll get my copies, shipped directly from the bindry, by September 11th at the latest. 15:11:10 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:11:16 I think folks getting it from Amazon should get it only a bit later than that. 15:11:16 nice. 15:11:26 dlowe: sigh. Thanks. In the old days of centralized VCSes, I could do a simple 'svn revert'. 15:11:35 gigamonkey: will you sign & save one and auction it off for charity when you're richer and famouser? 15:11:41 And apparently there's going to be some kind of promotion in Barnes & Noble stores on the 14th. 15:11:45 rpg: git reset --hard is pretty much 'svn revert' 15:12:04 Xach: better than that. I have a scheme to end up with a copy autographed by all my subjects. 15:12:09 a la http://www.listia.com/auction/207 15:12:16 Though I was thinking of auctioning it off when I'm destitute and need the cash. ;-) 15:12:23 gigamonkey: ah, that is a great idea. 15:12:25 In the old days stupid people like me could be VCS /users/, but in the brave new peer-to-peer world of git we must all be VCS /administrators/. 15:12:50 I'm glad toyota lets me be a driver, instead of a dealership owner. 15:12:58 pkhuong: it's okay. I'm not crazy about some of the choices they made but my editor assures me it will sell more books. 15:13:11 rpg: git config --global alias.revert 'reset --hard' 15:13:12 And what do I know, really. 15:13:31 dlowe: I thought git reset reset to before the merge? Wouldn't that give me my local copy instead of the remote one? 15:13:58 rpg: sure, but then when you git pull, your local copy will be fast-forwarded to the remote one 15:14:10 I want to just crush my local copy and replace it with the remote. I'm not sure why this isn't one of the strategies for git merge.... 15:14:17 If anyone sees a nice display of Coders at Work in a bookstore, I'd love to have a picture of it. 15:14:29 gigamonkey: Now's the time to start collecting comp sci memorabilia to sell to all those nerd-focused theme bars that are bound to start popping up: 'Hard Reset Cafe', 'Planet Coder' etc. 15:14:46 rpg: you can. git pull -s theirs 15:15:05 salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has joined #lisp 15:15:09 *gigamonkey* would like to get his drink on at a place calle Ctrl-Alt-Delete 15:15:20 sounds good gigamonkey 15:15:54 luis: Also, M-- M-^ which adjoins the line beneath point 15:16:04 rpg: never mind. there's an "ours" strategy, but not "theirs" 15:16:08 might be a good patch 15:16:09 but it will be nice that you can order it with c-a-d 15:16:25 There must be a BSOD cocktail already somewhere... 15:16:33 dlowe: Yeah. Doesn't this seem like something one would obviously want to be able to do? 15:16:52 splittist: i think i've actually seen that one 15:17:51 rpg: This is not a good place to ask. 15:18:15 Xach: I suppose. But this is the community that has rammed git down my throat... 15:18:17 it wasn't intended to take as much bandwidth as it did, I'm sure 15:18:57 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 15:19:27 Xach: Is there any reason why ASDF should be maintained in git if this community can't come up with a four word answer to this question? 15:19:53 <_8david> "git reset --hard origin/master" <-- four word answer 15:19:55 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.242.163.86] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:20:32 <_8david> The reason many people here have avoided giving this four word answer is, I think, precisely because it's offtopic. 15:21:58 _8david: Right. I note, by comparison, e.g., that the org-mode community provides recipes for interacting with git for its contributors, and that is not considered off topic. 15:22:14 gigamonkey: is there a launch in a Belgian store? 15:22:27 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:22:46 _8david: Thank you very much for the answer. 15:23:03 rpg: I don't really mind the discussion of how to do it, but the editorial pissing and moaning I find really obnoxious. 15:23:26 rpg: I also don't know much about git, don't maintain asdf, and can't help much. I'm glad someone else can. 15:23:36 madnificent: dunno. 15:23:51 -!- ArtVandalae [n=SuperUnk@220-253-25-96.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:23:57 Xach: Fine. sorry. 15:24:08 <_8david> rpg: hey, I don't mind the git discussion myself. I'm just afraid that Xach would shout me down if I entered into it myself. :-p 15:24:29 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has quit [] 15:25:14 isn't offtopic only bad if it creates too much noize in a useful conversation? 15:25:28 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.253.128] has joined #lisp 15:25:37 or makes a useful conversation stillborn 15:28:25 <_8david> There is a Common Lisp-related angle to this, namely that clbuild also uses "git pull", and "git pull" is almost always the wrong thing anyway, especially from a shell script that doesn't ask the user whether he actually wanted to do this. 15:28:29 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-0-142.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:28:39 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-0-142.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:29:26 _8david: because of branches, failed merges, or what? 15:29:32 _8david: git fetch wouldn't solve too much either 15:29:34 <_8david> I think clbuild should first use "git fetch" like most human git user would do, and run "git merge" only if it's actually a fast-forward. Because if it isn't a fast forward, there's a good chance the user wanted "git rebase" or "git reset" rather than "git merge". 15:30:03 weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:30:08 manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6ED63.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:26 <_8david> I use clbuild for three kinds of projects: 1. Things I just download. 2. Things I sometimes change a little. 3. Things I hack myself actively. 15:31:41 _8david: right, makes sense. 15:32:31 <_8david> (1) is always a fast forward. (2) often is. (3) hardly ever is. And I definitely don't want "get merge" to be called for those, unless I explicitly opted for it. 15:33:49 -!- Demosthenex [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 15:33:50 _8david: clbuild could drop the user in a shell in the right subdirectory of source 15:34:29 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:34:58 "I am aware that ASDF is a rapidly evolving architecture" 15:35:12 shouldn't we - following the true lisp-nature - create something completely new to tackle that issue? ^_^ 15:35:27 tcr: asdf itself? 15:35:32 Hm. Just saw Dan's talk. So Lisp is dead in 5 or 10 years. I thought it was dead already. 15:35:33 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 15:35:57 <_8david> Plus: fetches for multiple projects could be parallelized easily, merges can't. 15:36:03 tic: lisp belongs to the undead, you can't really kill it 15:36:10 tic: link please 15:36:32 _8david: I don't think speed was ever a design goal with clbuild 15:36:43 jleija, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xquJvmHF3S8 15:36:47 tic: Sounds like fusion power. 15:37:05 pkhuong, 5 or 10 years away? Yeah. 15:37:25 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 15:38:43 rpg: I can feel with how you feel about git because I do, too, but I attribute to myself not taking one, or two days to take a closer look at it. I've been recommended the following article http://ftp.newartisans.com/pub/git.from.bottom.up.pdf by a friend of mine. 15:39:41 tcr: I looked at that, and frankly didn't find it that helpful. What I'm finding hard is the opposite --- what's the top-level API for dealing with this if you are a casual user. 15:39:59 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 15:40:33 <_8david> madnificent: it's a tool saving my time, so in a sense it is all about speed. 15:41:21 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-221-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Time to reboot."] 15:43:29 luis: what is a pain to live without for me is goto-last-change. i even have a few key bindings for paste-at-last-change and things like that... 15:43:50 tcr: How does git turn into a tool instead of a hindrance. The org folks have done a good job of giving me a recipe for using git to make patch files and send them to Carsten for approval and redistribution. 15:44:07 and i've not seen any editors that had a way to do that, other than emacs of course... where you can implement it... :) 15:44:21 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:44:49 I find it an intriguing coincidence that lisp will die just as all those old-timers retire 15:45:21 jlf` [n=user@evans-wlan-180-28.AirBears.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp 15:45:32 Xof: fortunately, the US has solved this problem for making it impossible for any of us ever to retire. 15:45:33 by/ 15:45:38 s /for/by/ 15:46:08 Aren't they developing death panels? 15:46:34 rpg: nah, some lispers even sell all they have in the US and move to india... :) (Mark Traver of Qi) 15:46:50 Not that I'm against killing amerians, but I didn't expect them to be so proactive about it. 15:46:58 I don't mind the demise of lisp being in 5-10 years, as long as it stays 5-10 years every year (as it seems to). 15:47:00 Um, Tarver was in the UK. 15:47:00 attila_lendvai: tarver is UKian, not USian. 15:47:11 rpg: oh, but someone with Weinreb's track record of successful companies will have squillions in his retirement portfolio 15:47:26 I mean, surely his pension from Symbolics alone is worth a LispM's weight in gold 15:47:31 Zhivago: sadly, that's an unfounded rumor. 15:50:23 *rpg* is off to the gym to exercise away his frustrations with git and unsociable tendencies... 15:50:48 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6D8B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:51:20 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-187-223.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 15:52:04 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:55:42 pkhuong: oh, right, of course... but the point is the same... 15:59:21 oh, yep, death panels; the Onion now finally seems more legitimate than the actual news from America :) 16:01:12 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:01:28 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 16:05:00 -!- cracki [n=cracki@45-197.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 16:05:44 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:05:49 hyperbor1ean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 16:06:21 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:38 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:15 X-Scale [i=email@89.180.181.34] has joined #lisp 16:10:21 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has joined #lisp 16:10:52 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has quit [Client Quit] 16:11:47 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:57 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 16:12:37 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:14:43 auclairb [n=auclairb@modemcable061.204-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:15:07 Ogedei [n=user@e178217081.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:16:37 is there a way (through a handler) to cause a condition to be suppressed, without using a restart? (I know, sounds wrong, but I'm dealing with a stupidly-designed library) 16:17:13 clhs handler-case 16:17:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_hand_1.htm 16:17:50 stassats`: the thing is, I don't want to unwind 16:18:17 lukjadOO7 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 16:19:27 if you don't have support from the library, you can't 16:19:44 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:20:02 Hm, I keep stumbling upon cases where ECL errs while compiling code calling functions with wrong argcount, whereas SBCL silently goes on, without even any warnings. 16:20:14 Perhaps I need a convincing testcase. 16:20:46 novaburst [i=nova@sourcemage/mage/novaburst] has joined #lisp 16:21:08 Xof: thanks, I'll start bugging the authors then 16:21:51 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 16:24:29 deepfire: The best you're likely to get on the SBCL front is a Big Fat Warning if the two functions are in the same compilation unit and a Style Warning otherwise. 16:24:38 rdd` [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:24:42 Mainly owing to function redefinition semantics. 16:25:27 Ogedei: what library is that ? 16:25:32 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:26:42 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 16:27:39 nyef, two functions in the same file, one directly preceding the misusing one 16:27:48 nyef, in my case, that is 16:28:49 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:29:12 -!- jd8hh57 [n=mickey@host217-34-51-26.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has left #lisp 16:30:54 seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:31:16 It seems some lisps represent () by nil....why is that? Is () really *that* painful on the eyes? :) 16:31:34 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:31:40 seb-: In Common Lisp, () -is- NIL. 16:31:59 Well, there is a symbol, a value and a constant. 16:32:00 nyef: does the REPL return nil or () ? 16:32:15 seb-: Presumably, it depends on the implementation. 16:32:16 NIL says SBCL. 16:32:20 (And the way you print values) 16:32:24 deepfire: yes but why do we even need a symbol for ()? 16:32:38 deepfire: was there some defect in "raw ()" ? 16:32:46 seb-: () for false is a bit weird. 16:33:10 seb-, well, nil is 1 reader token, () is 2. 16:33:30 seb-: Well, it's clearly not a CONS... I expect, however, that a singleton value is a reasonable design choice (doesn't scheme do this?). 16:33:47 'reader token'? 16:33:50 #f ? 16:34:01 The reader produces the same value for nil and () 16:34:09 Zhivago, ok, I was talking out of my ass, I admit. 16:34:16 I personally was guesssing that ( () () () ) is harder to read than ( nil nil nil ) 16:34:23 -!- ShadowChild [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:34:25 The problem is this. 16:34:33 *seb-* takes a seat. 16:34:38 (nil () nil) <- how many symbols are in this list? 16:34:43 2 16:34:47 No. 16:34:47 Three. 16:34:50 fe[nl]ix: ACL socket library 16:34:51 Hurrah. 16:35:00 (nil () nil) <- how many lists are in this list? 16:35:02 However, there are also three lists in said list. 16:35:06 Indeed. 16:35:13 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:35:16 Zhivago: wait..i thought nil was the symbol for () 16:35:22 Which means that you can't have lists of lists and arbitrary symbols without ambiguity. 16:35:29 Further, there are two invocations of the #\( reader-macro, and thus read-delimited-list involved in parsing it. 16:35:31 seb: () produces the symbol nil. 16:35:42 nil represents a constant whose value is '(), yes 16:35:52 deepfire: Umm... No it doesn't. 16:36:01 deepfire: ugh 16:36:04 Zhivago: are you saying () is a symbol? 16:36:05 NIL is useful for making your intentions clear 16:36:09 deepfire: You have a stray quote in there. 16:36:14 seb: The type of list is (or cons (member nil)), effectively. 16:36:32 seb: Yes. () is a symbol. 16:36:35 nyef, well, depends on whether you evaluate during read :-) 16:36:47 (The type of LIST is typically (OR CONS NULL), where the type of NULL is (MEMBER NIL)). 16:36:52 seb: (typep () 'symbol) 16:37:31 Zhivago: that bugs me...symbols should be composed only of alphanumeric chars with some @#$@#$ thrown in 16:37:39 Zhivago: ( and ) should be reserved for lists 16:37:50 () is a list as well 16:37:52 seb: I think that the syntax is irrelevant. 16:37:55 nil is a list and an atom at the same time 16:38:01 and when you say "should be", what natural law are you invoking? 16:38:13 stassats`: you are right 16:38:20 seb-: nil is a symbol. The empty list happens to be represented by that symbol. 16:38:21 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 16:38:22 Zhivago: i think stassats` hit it....() is an "atom" 16:38:24 too 16:38:32 well, symbols are atoms 16:38:42 How you decide to read/print the empty list is pretty irrelevant. 16:38:43 yes 16:38:56 ok..it is weird that () is an atom 16:38:59 It just happens that () and nil read into the same object. 16:39:24 -!- dto [n=user@cpe-24-31-141-95.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:39:24 deep: Which means that you can't have lists of lists and symbols unambiguously, if lists can be empty. 16:39:39 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:39:44 logBot6104 [n=logBot@59.92.128.244] has joined #lisp 16:39:49 You can't differentiate between (nil ()) and (() nil) 16:39:49 i like (defvar *list-of-pancakes* ()) but (defvar *lights-are-on* nil) 16:40:47 -!- carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:40:58 carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has joined #lisp 16:42:14 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.144.45.234] has joined #lisp 16:42:49 -!- hyperbor1ean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:43:39 Zhivago: i can accept that () is an atom but why did you say it is a *symbol* too? 16:44:05 Zhivago: the value of () is () right? since numbers evaluate to themselves would you say numbers are symbols as well? 16:44:11 seb-, stop 16:44:15 seb-: at this point you should probably pick up a book on Lisp. 16:44:37 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2483.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:44:38 seb-: and then we'll be happy to answer any further doubts you might still have. 16:44:39 minion: tell seb- about that-dead-sexy-book 16:44:40 seb-: have a look at that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 16:45:20 luis: is that book thorough about little issues that this one? 16:45:25 s/that/like 16:45:31 seb-, listen: there is one object denoting both 1) an empty list 2) a false value. Then realise that the Lisp reader is set up so that both () and NIL produce that object. 16:45:37 seb: What does (class-of ()) tell you? 16:46:14 seb-: yes. Plus it will be less confusing for you since you don't have to follow the replies of so many people at once. 16:46:15 Zhivago: i'm writing my own tinylisp but i don't have a CL REPL in front if me..sorry 16:46:21 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [Client Quit] 16:46:31 seb-, and then realise that there is a wholly separate entity -- a symbol with name "NIL" -- which references a constant whose value is the aforementioned thing. 16:46:38 Zhivago: i'm going by mccarthy's old papers hence i'm questioning every assumption and rule :) 16:46:57 seb-: FWIW, writing a Lisp before knowing how to use one seems to be a classic mistake. 16:47:05 seb: I'm talking about common lisp. 16:47:06 deepfire: thanks 16:47:07 seb-, have you read lisp in small pieces 16:47:13 dcrawford: no 16:47:13 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 16:47:24 seb: Lisp does not require that () be a symbol. 16:47:29 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 16:47:32 seb: This is just a choice that CL has made. 16:47:37 seb-, it's about lisp implementation 16:48:15 dcrawford: i don't really want a practical full blown lisp...just a mini one to learn the basics....mccarthy's old papers turn out to be very elegant, minimal and nice in this regards 16:48:46 Zhivago: thanks 16:49:26 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-187-223.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:49:28 seb-, I said lisp implementation, not Common Lisp 16:50:12 dcrawford: ok 16:50:32 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslhj107.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:50:46 check out it's description at amazon,etc 16:51:03 dialtone [n=dialtone@99.136.101.166] has joined #lisp 16:51:11 dcrawford: you talking about PCL? 16:51:14 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:51:29 dcrawford: oh n/m..lisp in small pieces 16:51:37 dcrawford: right 16:53:06 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:53:48 GrayGnome` [n=MuneNoKa@user-11fa52h.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 16:55:37 -!- logBot6104 [n=logBot@59.92.128.244] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:56:03 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 16:56:43 gonzojive_ [n=red@12.53.193.183] has joined #lisp 16:57:47 -!- lat__ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:57:58 -!- seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 17:01:27 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:02:15 reynard [n=alan@n11211828045.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 17:02:34 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Client Quit] 17:03:04 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.253.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:03:17 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 17:03:30 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:07:14 -!- reynard [n=alan@n11211828045.netvigator.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:08:25 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:08:58 -!- GrayGnome [n=MuneNoKa@user-11fa52h.dsl.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:09:52 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2483.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:35 lat__ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 17:11:31 *rpg* apologizes for earlier rant. He's feeling much better now... 17:13:15 TimDalySr [i=4817138b@gateway/web/freenode/x-kxgmhtijfeccorxe] has joined #lisp 17:14:12 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:14:18 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:20 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-bvfxwwmifnarztga] has joined #lisp 17:18:23 malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:18:24 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:18:44 s0ber [i=pie@118-160-162-13.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:50 has anyone looked at dan wienreb's LAIR proposal for lisp libraries? 17:20:19 the proposal is at http://ilc2009.scheming.org/node/10 17:21:05 I think there's no person or group of people that has the necessary will to bring it about. 17:21:11 jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:21:14 I'm willing to be proven wrong, however. 17:22:04 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.67.237] has joined #lisp 17:22:12 it seems to me that it is mostly an administration effort since it would involve a lot of collection and "normalizing" of the code so it worked together 17:22:23 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.144.45.234] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:22:30 and you'd need a compile farm that had all of the lisps installed 17:22:58 dog work, mostly, rather than writing new code 17:23:19 Is "dog work" work that you could train a dog to do? 17:23:32 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-188-098-219-240.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 17:23:49 its a US-based slang phrase for work that is hard and uninteresting but necessary 17:24:11 -!- Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:24:31 Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #lisp 17:24:42 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.67.237] has quit [Client Quit] 17:24:53 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.67.237] has joined #lisp 17:25:15 since it is mostly organizational work, such as collecting a list of proposed library code, forming a taxonomy, arranging a git repo, setting up automated build and test, etc 17:25:32 i am considering putting together a public project plan to do that 17:25:51 probably on a wiki somewhere 17:25:55 Not many libraries fulfill the requirements listed there 17:26:10 TimDalySr: I don't think something like LAIR is worth the effort. 17:26:19 y44d8h [n=clynt@talula.plus.com] has joined #lisp 17:26:29 clearly not. but we could "lift" the taxonomy from someplace like that java libraries initally 17:27:18 and i know there are libraries around already that could be git-ified 17:27:28 TimDalySr, my belief is that tools are what is needed. 17:27:28 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 17:27:42 I'm not even sure what problem it's supposed to solve 17:27:50 deepfire.... i have emacs :-) 17:27:59 Publicity of a few libraries? 17:28:01 TimDalySr: using something like clbuild to create some sort of library distribution with combined documentation and integration testing (buildbot etc) would be more worthwhile. 17:28:08 TimDalySr, akin to what debian has. 17:28:41 TimDalySr, i.e. a boat load of scripts testing package compliance, extracting meta-information etc. 17:28:44 tcr. ... consider what you need to do in CL if you want to set up a simple http or irc server and then doing the same in java 17:29:10 I search the web for candidates then come here to ask for experience 17:29:17 I'd do the same for java 17:29:18 TimDalySr: have you used clbuild? It's pretty straightforward. 17:30:47 "distributing" in the Lisp world is not well-defined. I think ASDF is lacking in that regard (perhaps rightly, or intentionally so, I don't know. I'd like to be enlightened, though, if that's the case) 17:30:52 luis. no, i haven't tried clbuild. got a URL? 17:31:21 tcr: if ASDF resolved to a git pull you could trivially automate installs 17:31:36 minion: tell TimDalySr about clbuild 17:31:37 TimDalySr: direct your attention towards clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 17:31:49 tcr: and code changes just become a git push 17:31:55 TimDalySr: Yeah because updating the source is the difficult about upgrading 17:32:06 How is that distribution? 17:32:20 Nigbjort [n=Nigbjort@201.171.100.192] has joined #lisp 17:32:37 tcr: have you used git? 17:33:27 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslhj107.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:33:36 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:33:46 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:33:54 Not much, I don't see how it's relevant. What's distribution for you? 17:33:59 i see that clbuild might be useful. i'll look into it further 17:34:23 Putting source code somewhere on the intertubes? 17:34:51 tcr: distribution takes two forms for me (i maintain axiom so i enable both). i should be able to pull and make the sources OR i should be able to pull binaries 17:35:02 TimDalySr: in any case, I suggest you discuss these ideas before wasting your time into yet another failed attempt at a Lisp CPAN or something. Alexandria-devel might be a good place to have this discussion. 17:35:03 in lisp i'm not sure binaries are all that useful 17:35:14 alexandria devel?? 17:35:14 Read Chimp Out's Official Appology to the Feral Negro Beast! http://chimpout.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31766 We appologize here for all the bad we have done them! At Chimpout.com we are not White Supremacist, rather we are Negro Inferiorists! We welcome all non-negroid races. Critera for joining: non-negroid, and hates niiggggggers! 17:35:31 i HAVE been discussing these ideas with the ALU board 17:36:31 TimDalySr: was that a public discussion? 17:36:34 -!- Nigbjort [n=Nigbjort@201.171.100.192] has quit [K-lined] 17:36:52 tcr: isn't something like this part of Alexandria's goals? 17:37:56 we had a discussion which i believe was recorded in the minutes a while back. but i'm reaching a point in axiom (a CL based project) where I need libraries so it has raised itself up on my todo list 17:38:00 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Zhivago 17:38:02 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6ED63.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 17:38:06 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [Client Quit] 17:38:10 -!- Zhivago has set mode +b %Nigbjort!*@* 17:38:14 -!- Zhivago has set mode -o Zhivago 17:38:23 TimDalySr: Pulling source is trivial. It's managing version incompatibilities that's interesting. At the moment people just pull from several source repositories which form their image, then try to stay with that image as long as possible. It's very likely that updating a single repository will result in the need to update most of everything else. 17:38:30 milanj- [n=milan@91.150.119.58] has joined #lisp 17:38:52 tcr: yeah, that's where the compile farm is important 17:39:14 And then you frob your stuff to the changes and again stay with your new image as long as possible 17:39:22 i have a compile farm across operating systems and OS versions but not over CL versions 17:39:23 TimDalySr: hmm. Is goal to have a coherent set of libraries (like Python's 'standard' library) or a repository of a bunch of libraries that may or may not work together? (like CPAN) 17:40:48 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:41:06 -!- acieroid is now known as Zacieroid 17:41:12 luis: according to LAIR the goal would seem to be a structured set of libraries that would span the current working set (e.g. Java/Python) 17:41:21 Actually, I wouldn't mind a big source repository where I can get stuff from, that's reasonably up-do-date (perhaps updated every 2months), and that tries to make sure that everything works with each other by automatic testing. 17:41:34 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 17:41:46 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:41:55 Of course that means that libraries expose comprehensive test suites. 17:41:56 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 17:42:02 tcr: indeed, that's where I'm getting at. 17:42:34 luis: but I think the short term is to set up an infrastructure of blank taxonomy, a compile farm, a submission/trac/distribution mechanism, etc 17:42:34 -!- Zacieroid is now known as acieroid 17:42:39 and indeed that's where the work should be focused on, not on CPAN-like infrastructure 17:43:00 TimDalySr: Juanjo made a similiar appear recently: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.ecl.general/5501 17:43:16 appeal 17:44:07 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:44:17 This resulted in the unfortune inadequacy of ASDF for that purpose which, in my eyes, is the low hanging fruit that must be accompanied first. 17:45:23 tcr: so, if not alexandria-devel, where is discussion appropriate? 17:45:36 tcr: there are several low hanging fruits :-) but it seems that there is a lot of demand with just a lack of focus 17:45:48 luis: URL for alexandria-devel? 17:45:51 luis: I don't know. CCLAN? ;) 17:46:03 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.186.243] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:46:24 a lot of demand? 17:46:28 minion: alexandria? 17:46:29 alexandria: Alexandria is a collection of portable public domain utilities. http://www.cliki.net/alexandria 17:46:31 ALU has a wiki. but i'm not looking for discussion, rather for a project plan 17:46:53 TimDalySr: From what I'm told, you should forget the ALU 17:47:08 tcr: why? 17:47:20 tcr: don't they organize a conf every two years? 17:47:38 They don't seem to be in touch with the open-source Lisp world, do they? 17:49:43 luis: they seem to be. perhaps its just bad publicity? fire the publicity team? :-) 17:49:44 TimDalySr: What libraries does Axiom use? 17:50:10 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:26 tcr: axiom is from the 70s. it is currently self-contained and is about 1M "things of code" 17:50:43 tcr: most of axiom is common lisp 17:50:46 TimDalySr: perhaps. :-) 17:51:00 TimDalySr: So what's in for you? 17:51:20 i looked at alexandria. not sure if they would be open to CL extensions but i'll contact the members and ask. 17:51:50 fgtech [n=federico@host187-225-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:51:52 TimDalySr: CL extensions? 17:52:14 tcr: axiom needs to handle multiple processors. it needs to handle ajax (i've written a cl-ajax piece). it needs to handle HTTP-CANVAS to do graphics in browsers. 17:52:25 -!- tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:52:25 TimDalySr: No, alexandria is the wrong place. What kind of extensions? 17:52:59 i'm ripping out the internal help browser and replacing it with firefox driven from lisp 17:53:18 i'm ripping out the internal graphics program and replacing it with http-canvas driven from lisp 17:53:37 i'm writing the code to do this but it would be nice if i could "steal" it from elsewhere 17:53:55 well, for a web server, you'd typically use hunchentoot, not write one from scratch, and multiprocessing via bordeaux-thread. 17:54:04 so i want tight integration between axiom and the web browser 17:54:19 and i need to implement tight integration between axiom and atlas, a fortran library 17:54:37 milanj [n=milan@212.200.223.77] has joined #lisp 17:54:37 and i need tight integration between axiom and multiprocess control 17:55:37 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:55:43 ATLAS isn't in Fortran... rif (?) has a CFFI package for BLAS and LAPACK (with ATLAS and LAPACK) SBCL and CMUCL, cl-blapack. 17:55:46 i've looked at hoochentoot but axiom is not a general purpose web server. i need to be able to compute
entries, for instance 17:56:16 TimDalySr: serving and page generation are mostly orthogonal concerns. 17:56:18 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:22 pkhuong: sorry, you're right. i misspoke. in any case, i have C and fortran libraries that need integration 17:56:23 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:56:57 any idea on how to get a repl after hitting a break statement ? slime throws me into a backtrace ? 17:57:13 Dawgmatix_: switch to the slime repl buffer. 17:57:14 pkhuong: actually, serving and page generation are orthogonal to a certain extent. but the "page serving code" is only a few lines talking to a socket 17:57:38 pkhuong - will that be in the scope that the break was in ? 17:57:49 Dawgmatix_: in the dynamic scope, sure. 17:57:55 awesome :) 17:58:24 TimDalySr: implementing the HTTP protocol is not just a few lines. 17:58:25 anyway, i know how to do a lot of these things in java with libraries 17:58:33 but variables that I introduced using let arent showing up in the repl ? 17:58:35 luis: it was for me :-) 17:58:41 TimDalySr: Oh sure, if you roll your own to only support whatever you need and test on your single setup at that moment. If there's one thing CL doesn't lack, it's libraries for page generation . 17:58:41 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:58:48 -!- jlf` [n=user@evans-wlan-180-28.AirBears.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:58:51 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:58:54 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:03 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 17:59:05 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-36.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 17:59:16 Dawgmatix_: The slime debugger has eval-in-frame (bound on the key e) if the platform supports it. 17:59:26 if i had the same libraries for axiom i'd be further along. but i don't want to introduce another language (java) into this pile 17:59:42 TimDalySr: what libraries are you missing? 17:59:52 i see. knew about that one, but wanted to know if i could get a full fledged repl 18:00:02 so .... libraries.... and since i'm looking around perhaps i can contribute back some organization of what i learn 18:00:35 TimDalySr: right, that's cool. 18:01:27 -!- milanj- [n=milan@91.150.119.58] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:01:36 y44d8h_ [n=clynt@talula.plus.com] has joined #lisp 18:01:43 and, being a person with a "completion complex" i'm likely to look at and gather the existing libraries.... so why not put them into a taxonomy stolen from Java? then i know where to look and what interfaces i should expect 18:02:04 and having done that i need to make sure they run so i need to update my compile farm with the various lisps 18:02:20 and having done THAT, why not think about making it git-pullable? 18:02:32 and having done THAT, why not ...... well, you get the idea 18:02:44 if i'm going to do the work, why not open it up? 18:03:32 so a little planning up front is called for 18:04:06 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@modemcable061.204-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:04:15 now if i only had a lisp library that did project gantt charts :-) 18:04:16 Dawgmatix_: Yes, it's possible, but the code hasn't been written yet. 18:04:34 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:05:14 thanks tcr :) 18:05:19 tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 18:05:36 Dawgmatix_: Notice that you can copy down values presented in SLDB to the repl if you use the slime-presentations contrib 18:05:47 DakeDesu [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:59 didnt know about that 18:06:02 Alternatively, you can inspect the value, then use M-RET on the header (#) in the slime-inspector to do the same 18:06:26 Dawgmatix_: Make sure you have (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf)) in your .emacs 18:06:36 let me check 18:06:49 -!- y44d8h [n=clynt@talula.plus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:06:58 yes I have both of those 18:06:58 tcr, i tried adding new slime protocol message but it broke it somehow when sending the message 18:07:15 and i had to restart the connection 18:07:34 one library i could really use is a code-walker (e.g who-calls) that runs standalone 18:07:38 Obviously, then you didn't do it correctly 18:07:57 cmo-0` [n=user@92.96.20.45] has joined #lisp 18:08:16 tcr, http://paste.lisp.org/display/85541 18:08:20 any idea what i did wrong? 18:08:31 Dawgmatix_: You see when you move over the results in the repl with the mouse that there's some hover effect? 18:10:06 trying to save an sbcl image loaded with swank and hunchentoot. still on re starting sbcl i got error about swank sockets, although i used sb-ext:*exit-hooks*, plus swank:stop-server. any hints, ideas? 18:10:58 i'm rewriting axiom to be fully literate (as in Knuth literate programming) so i'm developing tools to allow you to work with lisp code embedding in latex 18:11:23 weirdo: No I don't know. I have to go now. I'd rather have stassats` implement that. Talk to him, perhaps he'll do. 18:11:34 tcr - yes in the backtrace screen I do see a hover effect 18:11:49 this would be a useful library (assuming anyone would use literate programming) 18:12:00 i see I can click to inspect elements 18:12:14 Dawgmatix_: You can also click on Copy To Repl (or similiar) 18:12:21 okay 18:12:32 But I have to go, perhaps someone else can continue here and explain to you what presentations are 18:13:32 I think I have enough to chew on now :) 18:13:58 Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 18:15:33 weirdo: (The reason is that it's time that dispatch-even is also made extensible from contribs, and to retrofit such change accordingly. I think he got some more overview over the code base.) 18:15:45 And also probably cares more :) 18:16:05 <_3b> what lib(s) should i look at for setting up an easy rpc-over-http server? 18:16:22 tcr, thanks 18:16:24 stassats`, meow 18:16:28 cl-json + hunchentoot ? 18:16:46 (I am trying to get that exact combination to work right now to do exactly the same thing) 18:16:53 <_3b> Dawgmatix_: was hoping for something that required less thought :) 18:17:38 if you find any other options please let me know too :) 18:18:15 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:18:29 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:01 <_3b> looks like last time i used ht-ajax (possibly hacked a bit), guess i could try that again 18:19:52 okay 18:20:14 <_3b> well, unless the bit about it not working with current ht is accurate :/ 18:20:16 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:20:53 :( 18:25:13 NegBlaNi [n=NegBlaNi@201.171.69.94.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:18 Learn about Uganda and other negro "Coontries" at Chimp Out's Niggger World Atlas! Here is our entry for Uganda, encyclopedia style. http://chimpout.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27071 All non-negroid races, gays, straights, jews, etc are welcome to Chimpout Forum! We are all human races united against the feral negro beast! 18:26:38 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.253.128] has joined #lisp 18:27:37 MclJaxcoon_ [n=NegBlaNi@201.171.69.94.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:40 -!- htk__ is now known as htk_ 18:28:49 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.226.150] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:29:22 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.226.150] has joined #lisp 18:30:27 amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 18:31:02 -!- NegBlaNi [n=NegBlaNi@201.171.69.94.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has quit [K-lined] 18:31:02 -!- MclJaxcoon_ [n=NegBlaNi@201.171.69.94.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has quit [K-lined] 18:33:51 _3b - hunchentoot + cl-json works without much hassle 18:33:52 :) 18:34:22 fgtech^ [n=federico@host254-155-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:35:22 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:35:34 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:24 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:38:13 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:38:35 hey, how do i see all type hierachy? 18:39:02 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 18:41:43 Demosthenes [n=demo@204.52.135.62] has joined #lisp 18:42:04 (loop for the typep in s (list-all-packages) collect s) or something alike 18:42:21 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:42:25 ... Hrm... What's the u-a-e-t of (and (satisfies #'fixnump) (satisfies #'oddp))? 18:42:48 (Clearly, it should be FIXNUM, but...) 18:43:06 nyef, T 18:43:47 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:43:58 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 18:44:04 i mean, why should SUBTYPEP and friends know which SATISFIES argument maps to which type? 18:44:53 if some asks for that functionality he's clearly looking for trouble, forgetting that CL type system is turing-complete 18:44:54 I can just see the bug report subject now... "SA... yeah. That's exactly it: There are some functions which are defined to be type predicates, so the system should easily be able to go from those predicates to the actual type involved. 18:46:00 but why would someone use a type like this in the first place? 18:46:13 besides, it's (satisfied fixnump) and now #'fixnump 18:46:15 Hush, I'm pontificating. 18:46:27 *_3b* wonders where the fixnump came from 18:46:44 clhs fixnump 18:46:44 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for fixnump. 18:46:46 Hrm... 18:46:54 Yeah, okay. 18:47:09 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host187-225-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:47:12 how do i see if a symbol has a type registered to it? 18:47:14 <_3b> (upgraded-array-element-type '(and fixnum (satisfies oddp))) -> FIXNUM on sbcl fwiw 18:47:15 Anyway, my point still stands. 18:47:34 i mean, SUBTYPEP foo T always returns true, no matter what symbol 18:47:46 _3b: Yeah, but the point was more about satisfies on type predicates than anything else. 18:48:10 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 18:48:18 weirdo: subtypep foo foo? 18:48:36 (Of course, that's probably also always true as well.) 18:48:46 yeah, it is 18:49:30 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:49:42 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 18:50:40 Okay, try (typep nil 'foo) and notice what happens. 18:51:09 it barfs an error 18:51:11 which is good. thank you. 18:51:28 ln5 [n=Adium@h199n2c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 18:52:08 -!- cmo-0` [n=user@92.96.20.45] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:52:14 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:52:25 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:05 Also, on SBCL, try (sb-int:info :type :kind 'foo). 18:55:02 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:55:15 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 18:55:48 -!- tvaalen [n=tvaal@terminal.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:56:47 -!- DakeDesu is now known as KatrinaTheLamia 18:58:24 weirdo: (ignore-errors (nth-value 1 (subtypep 'foo nil))) 18:58:40 is portable for atomic type specifiers 19:00:03 (excluding deftyped atomic types which expand to compound types) 19:00:38 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:00:50 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 19:00:59 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2483.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:01:08 clhs oddp 19:01:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_evenpc.htm 19:02:01 clhs satisfies 19:02:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_satisf.htm 19:03:41 is SBCL smart enough WRT &rest/apply and inline functions? 19:03:44 Hrm... No indication as to what it means for the function named in a SATISFIES type to throw an error? 19:03:46 or do i have to write a compiler macro? 19:03:59 weirdo: "Smart enough" in what sense? 19:04:47 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 19:04:50 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-221-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:52 I worry about Nick Levine's lack of imagination, vis a vis the spec. 19:05:57 nyef, remove the APPLY call and replace with a list of arguments 19:06:12 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:06:25 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 19:06:26 It will inline APPLY, if that's what you mean. 19:06:34 nyef: The glossary specifies "predicate n. a function that returns a generalized boolean as its first value.", so one could make the case that ths precludes a non-local exit from the function. (Of course signaling an error is decoupled from that) 19:07:37 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:07:39 tcr: I'd actually make the case that it specifically does -not- preclude a non-local exit. 19:07:51 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:09 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-20-180.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 19:08:09 hm, perhaps. :) 19:08:30 bytbox [n=chatzill@AC8110E8.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:08:39 gigamonkey: Well he has to believe, because ABCL is such an implementation. 19:08:44 The case could also be made that it might depend on the -use-, as there's a specific equivalence given for TYPEP. 19:09:54 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 19:10:02 And it's too bad that examples aren't normative, because there's an example given involving evenp. 19:10:13 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:10:46 nyef, i mean if calling (defun foo (&rest args) (apply #'xenu args)) as (foo bar baz) with body will replace it with (xenu bar baz) 19:10:54 -!- HG` [n=HG@85.8.90.253] has quit [Client Quit] 19:11:07 or will it be (apply #'xenu (list bar baz)) 19:11:26 weirdo: Oh. Yeah, it will do the right thing there if FOO is inlined. 19:11:38 nyef: Yeah, but it's worse than that. (typep obj '(and integer (satisfies evenp))) is not portable, an implementation may first try EVENP on OBJ (which will signal a type-error if OBJ is, say, a symbol) 19:11:48 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:12:00 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 19:12:09 -!- bytbox [n=chatzill@AC8110E8.ipt.aol.com] has left #lisp 19:12:23 nyef, great, thanks! 19:12:28 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:12:28 weirdo: A similar situation where SBCL does the right thing is if you manually destructure the result of multiple-value-list while discarding the list proper. 19:12:47 so you actually have to define a safe-evenp which works on any kind of input, and then use (satisfies safe-evenp). 19:12:48 tcr: That's what I was starting to suspect. 19:12:51 nyef: huh, cool 19:13:08 kpreid: Which, the type system stuff or the destructuring? 19:13:11 that makes up for m-v-b not having d-b capabilities...except for the lack of nice syntax 19:13:57 So returning a "multiple-value plist" is actually efficient? 19:14:47 tcr: Umm... Perhaps less so. 19:15:24 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.22] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:15:38 I was more looking at the case of needing to m-v-b in the middle of a LET*, so I did an m-v-l and picked off the elements of interest manually. 19:17:06 Though it might be possible to have GETF work in terms of an &MORE arg, which is what multiple-value-return ends up being... 19:17:23 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:17:25 Use that horrible binding* macro in Sbcl :P 19:17:36 *nyef* twitches. 19:17:36 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 19:18:05 heh. why the BIND hate? 19:19:15 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@204.52.135.62] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:19:38 I'm not talking about BIND. I'm personally not against using it, but I don't like the current implementation 19:20:36 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:41 I haven't used it or examined its output, but the idea looks at least as reasonable as ITER and OUT 19:21:58 Having spent some time in learning FORMAT, it's actually not as bad as it first seemed to me. 19:22:16 Previously I never understood how they could come up with that :P 19:22:16 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:22:27 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:52 yeah, if it's too complicated for FORMAT, it's typically too complicated for any single form and you should break out the string streams 19:22:54 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:23:05 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 19:23:35 iterate is more reasonable than OUT, IMHO. 19:23:38 dlowe, tcr: I keep meaning to go back and look again @ McDermott's format-replacement, which is to format what iter is to loop. 19:24:33 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 19:24:45 rpg: link? 19:24:57 http://cs-www.cs.yale.edu/homes/dvm/format-stinks.html 19:25:10 oh. that is OUT. 19:25:20 http://cs-www.cs.yale.edu/homes/dvm/papers/ytdoc.pdf 19:25:46 hm. Equally terse and cryptic, if anything. 19:25:55 that was my thought. 19:26:09 leifw [n=user@75-101-94-20.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:03 It has the advantage that you can comment it though 19:27:19 might as well use with-output-to-string, though. 19:27:20 you can comment a with-string-as-output form too 19:27:33 er, what luis said 19:27:48 not as compelling a win as iterate. 19:28:19 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:28:33 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 19:28:40 Although I could show you some really hair-raising FORMAT strings for logical blocks. They're pretty much like APL: write once, read never. 19:28:42 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 19:28:56 pstickne [n=pstickne@63.227.219.19] has joined #lisp 19:29:32 It's not so bad when you've seen the result 19:29:49 and frankly, that's also the case in the long form 19:30:06 just a property of display centric code, I guess 19:31:10 -!- tcr [n=tcr@138.246.7.145] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:31:29 -!- sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-69.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:31:31 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.181.34] has left #lisp 19:33:53 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:33:54 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-4-82.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:34:08 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 19:34:32 Demosthenes [n=demo@204.52.135.62] has joined #lisp 19:35:06 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.253.128] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:35:41 Handcrafted [n=henrik@0x573bbf5a.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.ronqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:35:51 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 19:36:10 Hello again, does anyone know of a good rainbow parenthese highligther for Vim 19:38:47 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:39:06 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:28 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:39:28 is there a way to know initialization keywords for a class? 19:39:41 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 19:39:47 Exciting. Tornado warning. Now over... 19:40:03 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-102-177.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:40:59 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 19:41:02 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 19:44:54 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-12823.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 19:45:01 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:45:20 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 19:46:44 yay for swank::extra-keywords! 19:47:12 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-0-142.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:47:17 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 19:48:32 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:48:41 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.22] has joined #lisp 19:50:14 blandest [n=user@79.112.97.191] has joined #lisp 19:50:43 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:51:01 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 19:51:18 dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #lisp 19:52:12 -!- Handcrafted [n=henrik@0x573bbf5a.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.ronqu1.customer.tele.dk] has left #lisp 19:52:39 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:55:45 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-20-180.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:56:22 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:56:40 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 19:57:19 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-159-45-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:14 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:00:49 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:31 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:02:03 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:02:20 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 20:03:19 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2483.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:33 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:17 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 20:05:58 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [] 20:06:39 -!- nyef [n=nyef@64.222.164.136] has quit ["Shutting down for a while."] 20:07:44 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:08:01 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 20:09:44 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:12:06 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:12:18 -!- leifw [n=user@75-101-94-20.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:12:19 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:22 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:13:39 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 20:13:53 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2483.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:14:28 puchacz [n=chatzill@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:15:18 hi, has anybody heard of electronic versions of PAIP and AIMA? best legal and HTML rather than PDF 20:16:18 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:16:30 puchacz: i don't think such a thing exists 20:16:35 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:38 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:17:12 jlf` [n=user@evans-wlan-180-28.AirBears.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:17:36 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:17:48 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:17:54 in this case even illegal would be just scanned PDFs I guess 20:18:40 -!- lukjadOO7 is now known as lukjad007 20:18:42 (to settle comments: I have dead trees of both, I am just after something I can copy&paste into short notes) 20:18:43 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:18:44 In slime, if one evaluates something in a debugger frame, is there any way to get hold of the result? It seems to go into the minibuffer and get lost? 20:18:57 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:18:58 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:19:15 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 20:22:28 rpg: (setq *foo* ...)? 20:23:13 pkhuong: is there access to a repl at this point, or must everything be done through "e"? 20:23:23 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 20:23:47 I think tcr said a full REPL in the debugger is still on the wishlist. 20:23:52 Sorry -- I'm more used to interacting with the debugger at the REPL in the Franz emacs mode. Not as handily graphical, but a more familiar environment. 20:24:01 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:24:14 hey, anyone has experience with swank::extra-keywords? 20:24:25 it doesn't pass any arguments to it for my form 20:24:36 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:24:37 i keep going in the call graph but dunno what calls it 20:24:44 gotta try deeper 20:24:53 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 20:24:57 or rather, shallower 20:25:02 pkhuong: Just wondering because I have a simply enormous s-expression to examine in the debugger. 20:25:25 rpg: Do you need the lexical environment? 20:25:44 pkhuong: I could probably live without it. 20:25:51 You could just use the REPL then. 20:26:29 M-RET will copy the presentation onto the REPL, as tcr mentioned earlier today. 20:26:41 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.22] has quit ["Leaving..."] 20:26:52 Didn't know about that one, has been useful already. :-) 20:27:06 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:17 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:30:21 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 20:30:33 dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.81.170.114] has joined #lisp 20:30:55 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:31:10 -!- dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.81.170.114] has left #lisp 20:31:17 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:31:53 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C4B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:55 -!- novaburst [i=nova@sourcemage/mage/novaburst] has quit ["leaving"] 20:34:00 luis: thanks, but the problem is that, AFAICT, there's no presentation here. If you press "e" to evaluate something in sldb, it goes into the minibuffer, and then vanishes. 20:34:02 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:34:26 I suppose I should have done (setq foo )) and then drop the result into the repl. 20:35:11 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:35:29 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:04 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:36:09 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 20:38:21 <_3b> you could hit i instead of e to inspect it in the frame 20:39:10 fgtech [n=federico@host61-171-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:39:24 <_3b> (and if desired, probably get a presentation from there) 20:40:03 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:40:53 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:40:55 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.226.150] has quit [No route to host] 20:41:52 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:41:56 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 20:41:57 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32C841.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:50 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:46:18 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcp197.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:46:33 HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:46:35 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:47:21 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:37 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:47:43 r0bby_ [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 20:48:07 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:50:01 -!- mbishop_ is now known as mbishop 20:51:45 -!- fgtech^ [n=federico@host254-155-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:52:41 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host61-171-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:53:11 fgtech [n=federico@host61-171-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:53:25 -!- r0bby_ [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:53:29 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 20:54:18 -!- y44d8h_ [n=clynt@talula.plus.com] has quit [] 20:58:05 What is the easiest way to sum all digits in number? Should I change number to string and iterate over it? 20:58:36 mrSpec: well, how would you get the first digit? 20:58:48 *luis* feels a sense of deja vu 20:58:55 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:59:10 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:59:14 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:14 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 20:59:18 mrSpec: you can do it without building a string, think about division and remainder 20:59:24 first digit? it would bee first digit in string ;) 20:59:30 mrSpec: other than printing it to a string 20:59:34 ah 20:59:39 mrSpec: how do you think integers are converted to strings? 20:59:40 it would be better? 20:59:44 it uses math operations at some point 20:59:54 ok, I understand ;) 21:00:11 luis: project euler FAQ? 21:00:29 hehe not only me is solving euler problems? ;) 21:00:54 mrSpec: thousands of people play that game. 21:01:33 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:01:47 I see "solved by" ;) 21:02:08 mrSpec: (truncate 12345 10) => 1234, 5 21:02:16 mrSpec: now iterate :) 21:02:25 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 21:02:46 thanks 21:04:17 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:04:31 tvaalen [n=tvaal@unaffiliated/tvaal] has joined #lisp 21:04:56 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:05:00 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 21:09:32 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 21:10:40 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:10:47 r0bby_ [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 21:10:55 -!- toxygen [i=toxygen@stip-static-98.213-81-186.telecom.sk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:11:00 toxygen [i=toxygen@stip-static-98.213-81-186.telecom.sk] has joined #lisp 21:14:08 hmm, why doesn't #!/usr/bin/env sbcl --script work? 21:14:31 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:04 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Network is unreachable] 21:15:11 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229175250.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 21:15:16 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:15:23 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:16:00 I get: /usr/bin/env: sbcl --script: No such file or directory 21:16:29 -!- r0bby_ [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:16:33 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 21:16:36 I shebang only allows one argument after the program name 21:16:56 s/I /I believe / 21:17:40 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:19:56 -!- mouflon [i=skajohan@Psilocybe.Update.UU.SE] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:19:56 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:19:59 mouflon [i=skajohan@Psilocybe.Update.UU.SE] has joined #lisp 21:20:17 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:20:21 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:20:39 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:45 depends on your OS 21:21:07 some OSes will instead split arguments on the spaces with no possibility of escaping them. 21:21:43 I could swear I had seen #!/usr/bin/env python -O 21:22:00 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-12823.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:22:14 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:22:21 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 21:22:41 not on linux... 21:22:48 you could've seen #!/usr/bin/python -O 21:22:57 or a: 21:22:58 probably yeah. 21:23:11 #!/bin/sh 21:23:11 """"exec python -O $0 "$@";" """ 21:24:10 (i really like that one, btw) 21:27:56 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:28:00 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 21:29:05 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [K-lined] 21:29:07 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit ["leaving"] 21:29:23 foom: did you mean shell instead of OS? 21:29:58 madnificent: parsing shebang is a function of the kernel, so no 21:30:36 ah the spaces were in respect to the shebang 21:30:37 madnificent: I meant OS...but good point, your shell also parses shebang lines in some cases. :) 21:33:05 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [] 21:33:52 foom: doesn't that imply "it's bound to be a bloody mess" ? 21:35:29 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:36:30 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:37:08 -!- puchacz [n=chatzill@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:39:15 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:22 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:30 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 21:42:35 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 21:45:35 -!- ln5 [n=Adium@h199n2c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:46:01 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 21:46:45 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-128.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:47:03 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-126.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:47:56 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:41 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 21:50:27 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:51:11 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Client Quit] 21:52:17 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:19 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:58:29 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:58:32 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:59:18 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:03 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:15 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:05 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@63.227.219.19] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:04:51 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:05:20 -!- dmiles [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:05:31 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:45 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.223.77] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:06:07 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-187-67.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:06:36 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:06:55 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:57 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:07:13 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:07:36 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:07:54 dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #lisp 22:09:21 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host61-171-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:09:27 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-102-177.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:10:40 weirdo pasted "what the..?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85693 22:14:10 zxcvzzmb [n=user@c-68-52-200-197.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:47 demmel [n=demmel@dslb-188-098-219-240.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:01 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:17:13 hello, is anyone awake here? 22:17:35 yes 22:17:57 ah, I was wondering if it is possible to compare (<) lisp symbols 22:18:06 no. weirdo and I are just friendly bots 22:18:37 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcp197.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:18:42 I mean, directly - without converting to strings 22:18:50 zxcvzzmb: (string< 'a 'b) 22:19:39 luis: really? that's cool. CL internals aren't usually that polymorphic... 22:20:02 STRING< takes string designators. 22:20:49 Adlai: so (string< 'a #\b) works too 22:20:54 clhs string designator 22:20:56 Yes, I know of that - what I'm curious (I'm ignorant about this) is whether there is a way to compare them directly - the ones that are interned - without actually doing a string comparison 22:21:19 zxcvzzmb: what would such a comparison mean ? 22:21:28 it's possible to compare any data type with PRINT-UNREADABLE-OBJECT :) 22:21:41 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:21:46 well, I guess the index(?) of the symbol table? 22:21:52 because :identity returns a pointer value as a string 22:22:33 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-141-61.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:22:34 zxcvzzmb: who says there's a global symbol table ? 22:22:45 -!- thunk` [n=luke@74-130-81-112.dhcp.insightbb.com] has left #lisp 22:23:24 zxcvzzmb: afaict, symbols are usually pointers to some implementation-specific struct (C-style, not CL-style) that contains symbol-name, symbol-value, symbol-plist, etc. 22:25:10 Yes, so what I don't understand is - if they are internally simply pointers, why isn't there a way in lisp to do a pointer comparison between them? Because if they are interned, they are unique objects, right? 22:25:27 zxcvzzmb: you can compare them with EQ 22:25:49 But that only tells me if they are equal, not which is greater/lesser - e.g. for data structures 22:26:07 like sorted binary trees, red/black trees 22:26:24 Ralith [n=ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 22:26:46 zxcvzzmb: thing is, the GC might move them 22:26:55 zxcvzzmb: are you sure you can't do those with cons cells? 22:27:27 luis: You're right. That makes it pointless. 22:27:37 eventually, you are left with whatever your implementation gives you for FFI 22:28:08 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:28:28 zxcvzzmb: perhaps sxhash is what you want 22:28:49 Hmm. is there any sort of index in the symbol table - something that is incremented for each new symbol? 22:28:57 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:05 sxhash is one of those functions that's dangerously tempting 22:29:12 but turns out to hardly ever be a good idea. 22:29:37 in the case of symbols, it will work, however. :) 22:29:52 It does work! Thank you so much! :) 22:30:21 Is there a reference for the details - not in Graham's ANSI lisp, just a small stub there 22:30:35 clhs sxhash 22:30:36 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sxhash.htm 22:30:41 Thanks again! 22:30:58 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:03 Oh cool, is that a robot that automatically links to the docs 22:31:05 clhs defun 22:31:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defun.htm 22:31:08 :) 22:31:09 please note the "certain constraints" essentially force it to return useless values for most kinds of objects 22:31:29 foom: depends what you mean by "it will work" 22:31:43 fe[nl]ix: be useful for hashing 22:31:48 on this ccl 1.4 here, (= (sxhash 'cl-user::a) (sxhash 'cffi::a)) => T 22:31:56 and they're not the same symbol 22:32:16 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:32:20 fine, but at least b and a return different answers 22:32:42 zxcvzzmb: if you have slime you should have access to clhs built-in, otherwise you can also www.xach.com/clhs?q=sxhash 22:32:49 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:58 S11001001: l1sp.org/cl/sxhash is infinitely better! 22:33:53 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:34:06 foom: but that's not what you said 22:34:07 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:33 it has zero question marks, =s and qs. that's an improvement by positive infinity. 22:35:05 (apart from being more tasteful for the web, apropos search) 22:35:57 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:40:13 hmm, I don't sxhash is what I'm thinking of - it seems to hash the string value of the symbol (different lisp processes, same symbol => same hash) 22:43:24 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:44:26 -!- jlf` [n=user@evans-wlan-180-28.AirBears.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:45:22 Here's what I am confused about: suppose I want to optimize a program that uses a comparison-based stucture, like red/black trees. Suppose I build up and destory may such trees (say they are sets or dictionaries), so each object is used in *many* comparisons. Obviously, 22:45:26 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:29 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:45:35 sorry, got cut off; obviously, I should use integers to represents the objects. Right? 22:45:48 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 22:47:38 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2483.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:38 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:48:23 So for instance, if I had a large data structure of anonymous unique objects, and I wish to run such an algorithm on it, I would, ordinarily: (i) create a table of the objects, (ii) replace each object with its index in the table, (iii) run the algorithm on the integer representation, and then (iv) translate back to the original objects, using the table, to answer the question in terms of the original objects 22:49:35 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@12.53.193.183] has quit [] 22:49:39 But what (again, excuse my ignorance) confuses me is why (I don't know of) a way to naturally express this in lisp, as a symbolic computation, without doing slow string comparisons (or generally, object comparisons) each round 22:51:00 zxcvzzmb: Are those objects ordered, or do you just want to compare if they are equal or not? 22:51:27 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [] 22:52:04 They do not have an ordering. But they are unique objects in memory (e.g. interned strings/symbols) 22:52:44 when you have unique objects 22:52:52 just use eq 22:53:11 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 22:53:11 should be as fast as a integer comparison 22:53:40 jlf` [n=user@evans-wlan-180-28.AirBears.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp 22:53:40 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:53:53 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 22:54:15 (i think it should be as little as a pointer comparison, but i'm not 100% sure) 22:54:17 clhs eq 22:54:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq.htm 22:54:37 maybe I don't understand your problem right? 22:54:44 Here is some idle thinking I was thinking: say you have a simple Scheme evaluator - all you need to do, to build this functionality in, is increment a counter for each new object in memory (GC already does far more than this), and expose this index to the programmer - not even directly, just as a <. This should be robust against copying GC, if the indices are stored together with the object (one more byte); if it is a non-copying GC, 22:54:44 just use the memory address. 22:55:24 demmel - the problem is, using a comparison-based data structure, where you need not just eq? but < and > 22:55:33 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Client Quit] 22:55:59 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 22:56:33 zxcvzzmb: oh. So they do have an ordering, but it is arbitrary? 22:56:44 No ordering. Just unique objects. 22:57:03 I described a page back how I would solve this in a language like C, using tables and integer indicies 22:57:14 But I wish to learn if there is a more lisp-like way of solving this 22:59:45 Otherwise I am writing C code in lisp 22:59:46 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:00:17 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:31 zxcvzzmb: if < is defined, then they are ordered. But in your case it doesn't seem to matter how they are ordered. Unfortunately I cant help you there. 23:01:29 disumu [n=disumu@p54BCB4BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:49 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 23:02:09 zxcvzzmb: But I'm curious what algorithm you're using, where you need an ordering, but it can be arbitrary? 23:04:42 demmel - Any algorithm involving sets or dictionaries implemented as sorted binary trees 23:06:01 Because while the logic - inserting into a set, associationg a key <=> value in a dictionary - doesn't involve comparing at all, the underlying implementation needs it. 23:06:57 zxcvzzmb: Oh i get it. 23:06:58 All that matters is that there is a consistent (but otherwise arbitrary) ordering over the objects, over their lifetime 23:08:02 So, e.g, if it is a graph algorith, with nodes say as objects or strings, then you would want to rename all the objects as integers (keeping a table of them), run the algorithm on the new integer-labeled graph, and then restore the original objects 23:08:46 or keep the integer graph and use the table for lookups 23:08:56 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:09:27 dysinger` [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #lisp 23:09:37 Yes 23:10:52 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:53 you could always use structs with an extra slot containing a unique integer index 23:11:07 or cons cells if your objects arent structs/classes 23:11:53 Yes. But it seems like a feature that should be left to the lisp evaluator 23:12:13 Because it already does all the work in its symbol table 23:12:15 -!- jleija [n=jleija@24.214.122.46] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:13:16 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-36.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 23:13:57 hmmm is this right in the hyperspec? "prog2 evaluates first-form, then second-form, and then forms, yielding as its only value the primary value yielded by first-form" and then in the example "(prog2 1 (values 2 3 4) 5) => 2". Shouldn't the return value be 1? 23:13:58 (prog2 1 (values 2 3 4) 5) => 2 23:14:28 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:14:46 *ignore the last sexp, accidently pasted it twice 23:15:00 clhs prog2 23:15:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_prog1c.htm 23:15:11 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit ["leaving"] 23:15:24 zxcvzzmb: define functions/macros to abstract the syntax and be happy. I don't think the ansi standard lets you do the thing you want to (but i might be wrong) 23:16:13 to me the language in the hyperspec is telling me it should return 1 because it says the primary value of the first-form, not second-form 23:16:46 okay, thanks. 23:17:07 -!- zxcvzzmb [n=user@c-68-52-200-197.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has left #lisp 23:18:20 DeusExPikachu: Must be a typo. See http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node82.html 23:18:51 ok, is there someone I should be emailing? 23:19:21 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 23:20:13 DeusExPikachu: Sorry I have no idea if clhs is even being maintained or changed. Maybe raise it here again when some other ppl are listening ;) 23:20:26 hmm k demmel 23:20:38 -!- HET3 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:20:39 DeusExPikachu: that is a known bug in the spec. it will not likely be changed any time soon. 23:21:26 Xach: Is the spec even being changed at all in such cases? 23:23:28 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:23:37 is there a tracker for that? isn't it easy to rehost an updated version of the hyperspec or are there copyrights? 23:23:50 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:17 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-192-10.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 23:27:01 apparently you can't without permission from lispworks 23:27:02 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/Help.htm#Legal 23:28:57 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:30:12 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:30:23 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 23:30:25 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D32F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:30:38 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:35:33 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 23:35:51 that explains it 23:36:31 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-126.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 23:37:39 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:37:59 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-21.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 23:38:29 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:18 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p54BCB4BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 23:40:14 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C4B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:41:56 rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 23:43:57 CLHS is a historical document. it won't be ever changed in any way 23:44:11 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:44:23 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 23:44:59 demmel: no 23:47:13 -!- rdd` [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:49:36 -!- meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:49:52 meingbg [n=meingbg@173-45-238-108.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:07 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 23:57:03 pjb pasted "shorty" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85701