00:02:08 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@12.48.195.73] has joined #lisp 00:03:19 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:04:48 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1CA34.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:06:04 -!- kjbrock [n=kevin@174.sub-75-208-200.myvzw.com] has quit [] 00:13:44 beach: i'm going back and looking at that macro now 00:14:03 beach: i appreciate everyone's help earlier, but i'm conflicted over the idea of a line-var parameter to the macro 00:14:30 have a few minutes to help me understand? 00:15:19 -!- seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:16:04 what macro? 00:16:13 *sigh* i can start again ;] 00:16:41 feel free 00:16:50 i have a macro that reads forward in a file until the current line matches a supplied regexp 00:17:02 it doesn't define what to DO while reading. 00:17:22 reader macro? 00:17:31 http://paste.lisp.org/+1TZI 00:18:06 lets be careful of terms. earlier i frustrated Xach (who valiantly tried!) due to lack of sleep and confusion over terminology 00:18:09 what for ignore-errors? 00:18:11 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:19 occasional binary characters 00:19:04 it reads from a file, and it is a macro. as far as "reader macro", i can't commit ;] 00:19:17 the idea was i kept doing this same loop over and over in a program 00:19:24 just varying the options to the loop construct 00:19:24 forget about reader macro, i don't know what i was thinking 00:19:38 collect line, count line, when line x, etc. 00:19:51 and the only thing i ever need returned is what loop returns 00:20:10 i moved the macro into a library (?) for common functions, and it broke 00:20:33 i had it explain to me it was the "LINE" variable that i didn't know i was creating, it crossed the namespace boundary and *boom* 00:20:39 doesn't refer to the same LINE 00:20:52 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 00:21:02 thing is, LINE should just be code for the loop construct, not some variable i intended to pass or return 00:21:05 right, different symbols in different packages 00:21:09 yep 00:21:26 so, now my quandry is how to do what i intended to do, which is to just pass additional code to loop 00:21:35 my impression was that's the purpose of a macro, to build code.... 00:21:58 it had been suggested i create an additional argument called line-var to pass a line variable 00:22:33 maybe i'm stubborn, but that makes no sense to me. i don't want to create a variable, or pass an existing one. i just want to send code in that will refer to the internal line variable in the loop 00:22:52 i was trying to add flexibility while reducing redundant code 00:22:53 well, pass the name of a variable as a parameter? 00:23:39 part of the problem here i'm sure is given my background in other languages, i see "collect line" as a text string, not a pair of symbols. lisp is bringing it in as symbols. 00:25:41 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:26:05 damn, i think i just got 00:26:06 it 00:26:33 using line-var isn't for the code adding to loop, its about passing a locally scoped symbol name to the macro to use in the loop definition 00:27:11 http://paste.lisp.org/display/85518#2 00:27:44 perhaps i had it backwards. its not about passing a variable to change content, but to equalize scope (for lack of a better term) 00:28:45 yep, it just passed all the unit tests. 00:29:20 yep, i can confirm the disconnect was on my side. i was thinking passing a line-var would be to return data via variable, not update the macro's contents 00:29:21 see, by just stating your problem you can find a solution on your own 00:29:32 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:42 yeah they were explaining earlier, but i had to reverse my understanding of what the argument would do 00:29:47 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 00:30:04 damn thats weird. i'd have never thought of that. 00:30:14 lisp gets more interesting every day. 00:30:50 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@12.48.195.73] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:35:04 i must say, i've got a fairly complex series of programs now with custom libs doing the whole regexp to SQL thing very well 00:35:06 you look at macros like at something different, but they're just functions which return code 00:35:36 what i need to wrap my head around next is error reporting 00:36:25 (error "Look ma, no hands!") 00:38:18 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:22 no, i got that 00:38:25 i mean error handling 00:38:31 ie: instead of the ignore-errors 00:39:22 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:41:44 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 00:41:46 (handler-case (read-line stream) (end-of-file () "The End.")) 00:43:19 exceptions are slow when used in tight loops 00:45:03 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 00:46:19 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.173.115] has joined #lisp 01:00:53 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 01:02:48 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-218-212.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:43 If I'm connecting SLIME to a Lisp on a remote machine, is there any easy way to make slime-compile-and-load-file work on files on my local machine? 01:04:21 the example i saw had the files on the remote and tramp setup to use ssh 01:05:07 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:05:08 Yeah, I've done that in the past. 01:05:49 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:05:53 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 01:05:59 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:07:20 C-x h M-x slime-compile-region 01:09:42 (defun slime-compile-buffer () (interactive) (save-excursion (slime-compile-region (point-min) (point-max)))) 01:10:01 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.173.115] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:11:32 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:13:57 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:18:07 jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 01:20:51 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:22:01 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-gmojbnpagzxmxbxj] has left #lisp 01:22:14 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:22:42 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.173.115] has joined #lisp 01:23:20 why the excursion? 01:23:27 eruijters [i=enno@82.174.243.118] has joined #lisp 01:23:29 just in case 01:24:34 BrianRice [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:52 stassats`: thanks. 01:28:13 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:28:41 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest5557 01:28:55 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 01:29:01 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 01:31:29 WarWeasle [n=brad@98.220.168.14] has joined #lisp 01:31:32 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 01:34:17 Anyone familiar with cl-opengl and VBO's? 01:34:21 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:29 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:35:33 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:26 -!- nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:40:13 i'm giving a talk about Factor at the twin cities lisp user group tomorrow 01:40:15 http://code-factor.blogspot.com/2009/08/twin-cities-lisp-factor-presentation.html 01:41:27 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-146.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 01:41:36 JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:02 -!- Guest5557 is now known as pkhuong 01:42:55 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-173.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 01:43:17 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 01:43:17 *stassats`* hates shell quoting 01:44:21 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-218-212.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:44:53 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:01 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:45:56 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:46:43 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:48:18 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 01:51:14 together with regex quoting and lisp string quoting 01:51:19 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 01:52:04 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:54:39 alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:16 Hmm, I've come to appreciate python style quoting more. 01:57:42 -!- chessguy_work is now known as chessguy 01:59:45 In the spec, does the phrase "obeys *print-readably*" wrt a function mean that the function prints readably always, or that the function errors if it can't print readably (ie uses print-unreadably-object)? 02:00:03 s/bly-/ble-/ 02:00:43 s$s/bly-/ble-/$$ 02:00:59 pff 02:01:18 http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Issues/iss276-writeup.html 02:01:23 s/what i said// 02:02:33 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:02:35 http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/var_stprint-readablyst.html 02:03:28 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.173.115] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:05:15 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 02:09:16 seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:13:05 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-218-212.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:12 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:17:19 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:17:46 elliotstern_ [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:18:05 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:24:48 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-218-212.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:25:03 gigamonkey [n=user@99.35.218.212] has joined #lisp 02:33:32 -!- eruijters [i=enno@82.174.243.118] has quit ["leaving"] 02:33:38 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:33:39 now i have to find a lib to take command line params like getopt 02:34:10 minion: getopt? 02:34:11 getopt: getopt is a library for processing command-line arguments. http://www.cliki.net/getopt 02:34:25 minion: optparser? 02:34:25 optparser: optparser is a Unix command-line options parser for simple shell scripts, geared towards ease-of-use and unambiguity. http://www.cliki.net/optparser 02:34:33 (I have used neither; I just did a search...) 02:35:32 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@98.220.168.14] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:35:50 there's also http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=projects/qitab/command-line-arguments.git 02:37:50 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:55 -!- elliotstern_ [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:41:02 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:41:36 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-127-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:03 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@99.35.218.212] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:43:01 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:43:09 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:46:05 -!- [sbahra] is now known as sbahra 02:52:00 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-218-212.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:03 Samy [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:24 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-173.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 03:01:30 ugh, i think i'm going to undergo the pain of updating my env 03:01:40 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-173.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 03:01:50 emacs23, new cvs of slime, sbcl (now with --script goodness), latest org-mode, etc. 03:02:11 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:05:50 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.115.194.242] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:05:57 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.147.136] has joined #lisp 03:06:32 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:18:13 felideon [n=user@74.186.235.232] has joined #lisp 03:22:23 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:23:47 Demosthenex, several of us are needing to do the exact same thing. Would you please put up a web page telling how you do it, and any problems to watch out for? 03:24:10 Demosthenex: what OS 03:24:23 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:24:37 debian lenny 03:25:09 i tried updating sbcl at one point and i got tons of lib errors... i may do a site install (/usr/local) this time instead of trying to keep it in my home dir 03:25:15 on CL side I'd go with clbuild, dunno about emacs side (my elisp files are a mess) 03:25:47 clbuild will also include easy-to-update SLIME 03:28:05 i've often considered creating a blog for these kinds of things 03:28:13 but i'd prefer one that uses org-mode 03:30:29 someone was working on that at one point.. 03:30:40 not sure if it's the same guy i'm thinking: http://lumiere.ens.fr/~guerry/blorg.html 03:30:56 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:40:42 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-173-73-92-224.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:44:13 yeah, blorg's no longer maintained. 03:44:16 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:54 ah 03:45:12 just use posterous.com then :P 03:45:37 write the blog post in org-mode and e-mail it to yourself... voila, posted 03:46:21 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:46:33 not sure how good it will look though ... 03:49:27 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:52:43 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:53:08 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:53:11 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-151-196-43-142.balt.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:47 -!- pkhuong` [n=pkhuong@abaddon.networkdump.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:58:59 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:00:01 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.238.249] has left #lisp 04:01:28 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rimhrjfhnbkzjfma] has joined #lisp 04:07:45 -!- galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:07:47 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:28 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:16:01 rread [n=rread@adsl-75-45-210-14.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:07 -!- bytbox [n=sclawren@silverchips.mbhs.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:19:21 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rimhrjfhnbkzjfma] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:19:44 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mehwkzzgagwfjlnb] has joined #lisp 04:25:45 jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:25:45 bytbox [n=sclawren@silverchips.mbhs.edu] has joined #lisp 04:27:33 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:11 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:32:52 -!- rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-qutjcvzvnkvratxx] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:35:36 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:11 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:38:44 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:33 -!- Samy [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:41:58 girzel [n=user@123.121.214.67] has joined #lisp 04:45:56 arnuld [n=arnuld@unaffiliated/arnuld] has joined #lisp 04:47:34 -!- vsync____ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:53:36 Good morning. 04:55:58 morning 04:56:07 good morning. 04:57:44 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@c-69-181-210-219.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:51 hey 04:57:52 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-218-212.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:58:04 crap i spent an hour looking for a stupid bug 04:58:14 and it turned out i had to use SETQ instead of LET for a special variable 04:58:24 ;) 04:58:36 I had done that stupidity too 05:00:36 perhaps setq and setf should style-warn on plain specials 05:01:02 what's a "plain" special? 05:01:22 suggest use (symbol-value '*...) instead 05:01:49 like, just the symbol 05:03:09 vsync____ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 05:03:58 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:04:07 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mehwkzzgagwfjlnb] has left #lisp 05:04:36 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jxufqcvtglovtaih] has joined #lisp 05:04:59 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:08 -!- felideon [n=user@74.186.235.232] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:07:07 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:09:24 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:12:17 Modius_ [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #lisp 05:12:44 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:19:54 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-148-0-83.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:22:23 -!- Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:25:35 -!- loxs [n=loxs@82.119.85.174] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:26:09 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 05:40:29 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 05:52:52 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:53:15 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:53:37 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 05:54:25 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 05:55:11 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 05:56:30 -!- xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 05:56:49 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:03:15 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@c-69-181-210-219.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:06:32 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:06:45 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 06:07:19 Hello 06:12:15 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 06:15:07 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.214.67] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:16:40 girzel [n=user@123.121.214.67] has joined #lisp 06:16:49 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:18:33 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:18:35 morning 06:18:42 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:19:16 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:19:43 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.214.67] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:20:19 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:20:23 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:22:45 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:22:47 girzel [n=user@123.121.214.67] has joined #lisp 06:27:42 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 06:28:03 hello splittist 06:28:48 girzel` [n=user@123.121.214.67] has joined #lisp 06:29:23 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.214.67] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:29:27 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 06:29:31 Hey beach. Who would have thought the hottest city I would live in would be GVA? (Although it could be I am misremembering HK...) 06:30:00 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:28 splittist: Hmm. How hot is it? 06:31:04 beach: consistently 30+ (although not + a lot). I guess it's the lack of aircon, too. 06:31:09 splittist: does it reach >45°C in shadow? ;D 06:31:30 p_l: I usually go to the Gulf for that (: 06:31:53 *p_l* recalls his two weeks in central spain 06:32:02 good thing the humidity was low 06:32:09 Yeah, I saw Kuwait had 47°C. That must be hell. 06:32:30 beach: it's not that bad if humidity is low. 06:33:02 but you better be either a) used to it/trained b) have lots of water 06:33:09 p_l: maybe so. I have only lived in humid places, like Baltimore and Bordeaux. When it gets > 35°C it is pretty bad. 06:33:20 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:14 splittist: We have AC in the house, but it broke down (or half of it did) last Thursday, and then Saturday was one of the hottest days with 37°C. 06:34:43 beach: ouch! 06:36:28 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["leaving"] 06:38:03 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:40:45 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:41:28 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6DB4A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:42:30 JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:45:03 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:45:53 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:39 HG` [n=HG@85.8.91.88] has joined #lisp 06:47:59 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:48:16 jthing 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[n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 07:50:58 bytbox [n=sclawren@silverchips.mbhs.edu] has joined #lisp 07:52:06 good morning 07:56:28 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-30-143.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:57:39 -!- GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 07:59:24 mvilleneuve:  07:59:41 srcerer_ [n=chatzill@63.196.107.132] has joined #lisp 08:00:21 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:24 npoektop` [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 08:01:15 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:01:15 -!- dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:01:15 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:01:15 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:01:15 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has 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daniel jthing alinp HG` JAS415 manuel_ pizzledizzle splittist Reav__ mrSpec xan_ SandGorgon Modius_ spradnyesh vsync____ sbahra rread galdor DeusExPikachu Ginei_Morioka fe[nl]ix dialtone Draggor seangrove alexsuraci pkhuong BrianRice jan247 ia Jasko2 weirdo mogunus dwh TDT Adamant stepnem pjb Adlai djkthx _8david sjbach lukjad007 Cowmoo serichsen Aisling dv_ yango_ Lucia_ tltstc abeaumont antifuchs xinming gonzojive Demosthenex 08:14:19 -!- names: proq dto lat_ mbishop TuxPurple carrl wasabi_____ kpreid eno__ hyperboreean mgr octe tic spacebat_ alexbobp elias` rsynnott Yuuhi` ment thatdavidmiller ace4016 Quadrescence |Trickster| Buganini cmo-0 Bootvis Axioplase beach GrayGnome Lycurgus prip mathrick mouflon arbscht etpace_ a-s tessier lujz` Khisanth moocow Ralith dmiles lde Patzy fnordus toxygen slyrus koning_robot sytse cods azuk` scode dostoyevsky nanobit aminorex johs holycow tvaalen 08:14:19 -!- names: housel vcgomes z0d ineiros p8m tsuru` luis keithr` Soulmann araujo russell_ foom 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[Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:51:04 -!- pingi [i=5b02d845@gateway/web/freenode/x-zeanuwlvrdwhfice] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 08:56:08 fgtech^ [n=federico@host187-225-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:56:14 -!- ironChicken [n=richard@158.223.51.84] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:58:25 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:18 geltoob [n=JLP@71.92.98.86] has joined #lisp 09:01:47 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:06:39 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [] 09:09:46 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:11:10 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 09:12:03 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:12:56 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:19:22 -!- phadthai_ is now known as phadthai 09:21:06 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:02 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit ["If I don't come back, tell my mother I died for a botched system upgrade"] 09:24:14 -!- fgtech^ [n=federico@host187-225-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:24:19 fgtech [n=federico@host187-225-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:26:11 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:27:40 <_8david> Dear lazyweb: Can you recommend an airport close to London? 09:27:48 <_8david> I think I have the choice between Gatwick, Luton, or Stansted. 09:28:46 _8david: choose based on lowest overall price? :) 09:32:47 c|mell [n=cmell@KD124213182069.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:33:14 arnuld [n=arnuld@unaffiliated/arnuld] has joined #lisp 09:33:16 _8david: none of those are particularly close to London, but Gatwick is (in my limited experience) by far the easiest to get to and from. 09:33:58 <_8david> p_l: I'm thinking more about travel times. The less time I waste getting into London, the more I'll see of it. 09:35:33 _8david: Gatwick has the Gatwick Express which runs every 15/30 mins and takes 30-35 mins to get to Victoria Station, which is pretty central. 09:39:12 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jxufqcvtglovtaih] has left #lisp 09:39:33 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:39:52 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:40:11 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-173.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:40:37 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:41:40 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-221.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:42:14 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cpzoymbxvyxcnufa] has joined #lisp 09:45:54 waterh [i=ca4bc813@gateway/web/freenode/x-zdwrndyrilqcihpj] has joined #lisp 09:47:47 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 09:52:36 hi attila_lendvai 09:55:44 attila_lendvai: I receive "Nem megfelel adat" errors when editing fields which are not string based 09:56:06 *kami-* has a presentation of the app on Thursday and is very scared of these errors 09:56:11 -!- Guest27762 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 09:58:56 -!- waterh [i=ca4bc813@gateway/web/freenode/x-zdwrndyrilqcihpj] has quit ["later"] 09:58:58 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@75.36.204.63] has quit [] 10:00:12 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 10:03:01 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:03:16 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 10:06:21 kami-: it comes from type-error's, from two places if you search for it. try to set up a breakpoint in the handler and see what is causing type errors 10:06:56 Yuuhi`` [i=benni@p5483AD79.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:16 attila_lendvai: is there probably also an error message in a log? Maybe I've misconfigured the logger. 10:07:24 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483B2CD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:09:33 kami-: i don't see any log statements around the handler. somewhere else, maybe. 10:09:43 kami-: (setf (log-level 'something) +dribble+) 10:10:03 kami-: (setf (log-level 'wui::wui) +debug+) as a first try 10:14:23 Anyone here use ACL2? 10:15:03 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 10:20:05 dwh [n=dwh@ppp121-44-203-158.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:13 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:23:53 -!- lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:24:18 attila_lendvai: just to be sure: by handler, you mean application-handler? 10:25:05 -!- logBot8882 [n=logBot@59.92.140.123] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:25:56 -!- tsuru` [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:28:34 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:29:33 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 10:29:53 attila_lendvai: nm. found it. 10:30:46 *kami-* hates asking stupid questions 10:31:34 -!- arnuld [n=arnuld@unaffiliated/arnuld] has left #lisp 10:32:38 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2775.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:33:04 i meant the condition handler(s), there are two of them with the same message (that are not localized yet) 10:35:34 est [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 10:35:43 attila_lendvai: yes. I searched for the message (finally). The problem is that an instance of subject-preferences has NIL in its subject slot. 10:36:21 attila_lendvai: I don't know how I managed to do that. I thought a subject-preference is created automatically for each subject. 10:36:30 hi 10:36:57 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 10:36:59 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:37:14 hello est 10:37:38 pingi [n=pingi@p5B02D845.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:38:18 -!- dwave is now known as asksol 10:42:46 Hun [n=Hun@p4FD3C4BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:59 brb 10:47:10 silenius [n=jl@192.166.201.90] has joined #lisp 10:47:36 -!- silenius [n=jl@192.166.201.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:48:15 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:32 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:50:29 -!- antifuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has quit ["ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"] 10:51:43 antifuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:16 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Client Quit] 10:57:17 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host187-225-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:14:00 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 11:15:13 pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:16:33 hdurer [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-auoipgxafbmudmgn] has joined #lisp 11:20:14 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:20:37 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:24:22 logBot1328 [n=logBot@59.96.44.182] has joined #lisp 11:25:15 fgtech [n=federico@87.8.225.187] has joined #lisp 11:30:05 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cpzoymbxvyxcnufa] has left #lisp 11:36:34 -!- pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:43:21 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has joined #lisp 11:43:24 mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 11:43:33 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 11:43:43 hello 11:44:06 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 11:45:21 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-221.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:47:08 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:48:08 paw [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:48:25 attila_lendvai: it is very strange. the type-error says that the slot subject of an instance of subject-preferences is NIL. But when I click on the subject-preferences, the inspector shows, that the slot subject is in fact bound (to the correct subject) 11:49:55 -!- paw [n=user@78-69-82-87-no172.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:51:54 attila_lendvai: no, it's not strange. The subjects have the same name, but different oids. 11:52:10 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:52:20 ironChicken [n=richard@158.223.51.84] has joined #lisp 11:52:29 -!- mtd_ is now known as mtd 11:53:03 pdenno [n=pdenno@bigfuzz.mxnet.mel.nist.gov] has joined #lisp 11:53:16 -!- logBot1328 [n=logBot@59.96.44.182] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:55:59 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 11:56:06 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:26 blandest [n=user@79.112.98.116] has joined #lisp 11:58:55 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:01:08 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 12:05:15 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:22 _phil1901 [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has joined #lisp 12:10:11 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-247.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:11:03 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:12:06 gigamonkey [n=user@99.35.218.212] has joined #lisp 12:12:30 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:20 kami-: when you bring up an editor component and try to save it, then not all slot editors work as expected yet... it may happen that an association is not removed from the editable slot list and the editor wrongly tries to setf the slot to nil, which fails with a type-error 12:19:23 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.228.146] has joined #lisp 12:19:24 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 12:21:46 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:22:03 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@99.35.218.212] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:24:09 is it possible to making rich user interface (like ncurses) application with elisp or cl? 12:24:16 or, Can i write zsh like interface with elisp? 12:24:20 i love commandline (or text-mode) interfaces 12:24:48 you can do both, and whatever else you'd like as well. 12:24:56 with CL, anyway. 12:25:14 htk_: elisp is good for embedding interfaces into emacs, with all the benefits and drawbacks that implies 12:25:19 with elisp you've got the full gamut of the emacs (G)UI 12:25:38 htk_: it would be straightforward to call a screen library like curses from common lisp. some lisps have support built-in (e.g. clisp) 12:26:02 are there any simple shell implementations with cl or elisp? 12:26:39 htk_: elisp is the language for extending emacs 12:27:06 htk_: when you ask a question about elisp, it's hard to take it out of the context of making something inside of emacs. 12:27:44 htk_: http://clisp.cons.org/clash.html is clisp as a shell 12:32:38 is it sane to create a metaclass just because :allocation :class sucks? 12:33:26 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-116-100.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:37:33 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2775.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:37:46 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:38:34 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 12:41:33 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:45:40 weirdo: I wouldn't make a metaclass just for an alternative to :allocation :class. But you might have fun doing it. 12:47:35 The usual way si to make a new defmacro like define-persistent-class 12:48:56 they would typically definea seperate meta-class fro standard-class 12:48:56 htk_: M-x ielm RET 12:50:18 weirdo: I'm afraid that if you think that :allocation :class suck, it might be because you're conflating namespace with classes... You could ust define a global variable instead, and keep both the class and the global variable in the relevant package. 12:50:20 AMOP is a must in these cases.. 12:51:27 matimago, i think it sucks because :default-initargs aren't called for class pprototypes 12:51:40 and they do for metaclasses 12:52:05 classes don't call anything 12:52:30 well INITIALIZE-INSTANCE is called on the metaclass 12:52:41 it's instantiated, producing the class 12:52:43 some inspectors and setters are auto generated, but can be overridden or changed 12:53:16 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:53:28 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 12:53:46 (defmacro initialize-instance (...) :after ...) 12:53:53 weirdo pasted "what do you think?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85588 12:54:24 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:54:44 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:05 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 12:58:08 why did so many people fail at writing an indentation-based lisp? 12:58:12 seems simple enough 12:58:26 with uniform syntax, macros don't have to be expanded at readtime 12:58:27 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:00:01 logBot5848 [n=logBot@59.92.168.92] has joined #lisp 13:00:24 well dylan never took off 13:01:00 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.192.253] has joined #lisp 13:01:21 Having to work with the equivalent of the syntax tree all the time is what makes macroes work 13:03:16 or rather what gives people enough gut's/knowlege to write them 13:04:09 that's the problem with most infix languages, their ASTs are complex 13:04:18 It isn't a syntax tree. 13:04:22 but it shouldn't be too hard to reduce an AST to lisp 13:04:24 attila_lendvai: OK. I was going to restrict the viewer/editor slots for each entity, anyway. Will check whether that errors occurs, afterwards. 13:04:55 attila_lendvai: is there a slot type which is mapped to a multiline input, be default? 13:05:08 s/be/by 13:05:13 (+ 1 2) <- What does this mean? 13:06:15 When you realize that you cannot answer that question, you will understand why it is not a syntax tree. 13:07:53 benny [n=benny@i577A1CB1.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:09:15 yes you can view it as a syntax tree, but more likely you will view it as 3 13:09:32 Oops, didn't I show you the next level out? 13:09:42 That's (quote (+ 1 2)) 13:09:47 arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 13:09:51 Hey, what does (quote (+ 1 2)) mean? 13:10:03 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 13:10:13 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 13:10:56 one silly thing i found out with CLOS is prototypes 13:11:26 prototypes are really needed to use classes as specializers when no object is available 13:11:44 Um, what? 13:12:13 (infer-type-of (quote (+ 1 2))) (eval (quote (+ 1 2))) (compute-derived (quote (+ 1 2)) (quote x)) ... 13:12:38 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:12:51 Oh, did I leave out the macro definition of quote? 13:13:01 Without telling you that I'm not in the CL package? 13:13:13 Oops, actually it's a function. 13:13:28 It's amazing what you (can't) figure out from looking at an s-exp. 13:13:42 I wonder how anyone could imagine that they were syntax trees. 13:13:51 context sensitivity is a bich 13:14:21 kami-: there should be some styled-text or html-text. and the (text 1000) type should be smart enough to realize that it's a multiline text input... not sure how much of that is implemented already 13:14:26 why some of like to keep it functional 13:14:29 CL is full of context sensitivity. 13:14:43 indeed 13:14:55 The point to take away from this is that symbolic expressions aren't syntax trees, even though you might like to pretend. 13:15:45 a macroexpand-all will at least reduce it to the special forms 13:15:50 Well, the syntax tree argument is mostly used when comparing lisp to other programming language. Its really a shortcut indeed. 13:16:02 est: Mu. 13:16:25 est: why would you macroexpand a s-exp? 13:16:27 Handcrafted [n=henrik@0x573bbf5a.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.ronqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 13:16:50 to expand the macro's 13:16:55 What macro? 13:17:15 Zhivago: the same way you know what someone's talking about when (s)he talks about a certain 'it' 13:17:18 ahh, not a s-exp. a .. 13:17:27 mad: Ah, guessing. :) 13:17:29 input form? 13:17:40 Those are s-exps, too. 13:17:41 (ajdh (shf))) stuff. 13:17:46 Zhivago: context :P 13:17:55 not the internal representation 13:18:09 est: right, but now that forms and sexps have the same form, how do you know it's a form and not a sexp (how do you know it's code and not data, that is some kind of code to be processed by a different eval?) 13:18:39 well there are 26 known special forms 13:19:02 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:19:10 -!- logBot5848 [n=logBot@59.92.168.92] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:19:14 Is (if a b c) a special form? 13:19:18 est: so what? 13:19:20 listed in gigamonkey's book 13:19:40 Zhivago: yes 13:20:07 (if (and (overp block1 block2) (wantp block2)) (move block1)) ; is that a form? 13:20:23 has that IF any relationship with the special operator named CL:IF? 13:20:39 'if is a special form 'and is a macro reducing to if 13:20:48 Which if? 13:20:50 Even ifthat IF is actually CL:IF, shall it be interpreted as the special oeprator named CL:IF? 13:20:54 cl:if 13:21:19 est: you cannot know that until you send that formto CL:EVAL or to INFERENCE:ENGINE. 13:21:47 ? 13:22:15 (inference:engine '(if (and (overp block1 block2) (wantp block2)) (move block1))) and zou! That IF not not the special operator! 13:22:40 It's an operator indicating, to the inference engine, that we have an inference rule with an antecendant and a consequent. 13:22:49 what noncence. You know the skope. so unless you shaddowed a definition in CL the that is what it means. 13:23:04 est: re-read his example. 13:23:08 You can't declare a new 'if by accident 13:23:13 If course. 13:23:19 i wouldn't use cl:if for that inference:if though... 13:23:36 As soon as I put a test such as (eq 'cl:if op) in some function, I've got a new use of 'if. 13:24:09 attila_lendvai: I bet you 'd use cl:if, because you'd use it to implement the engine, and you wouldn't care shadowing it to use a specific symbol. 13:24:28 We keep overloading symbol meanings. We start with lisp-2, and up to the infinity in user code. 13:24:36 The input to inference is a list of symbols and not evaluated 13:24:42 Yes. 13:24:44 due to the quote 13:24:51 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:58 The input to CL:EVAL is a list of symbol (a form actually) and not evaluated. 13:25:18 Until CL:EVAL evaluates of course. INFERENCE:ENGINE evaluates its inference rule too. 13:27:18 anyhow eval only sees dynamic variables. not the lexical ones. and it is slow to invoke. so it is usualy better to define a macro. 13:27:25 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 13:27:54 I may be CL:EVAL, CL:COMPILE, CL:COMPILE-FILE or the REPL, it doesn't change anything. 13:28:11 The point is that the meaning of the sexp depends on the evaluator you give it to. 13:28:26 quote is what changes the parsing.. 13:28:37 No, quote has nothing to do with it. 13:28:43 ? 13:29:01 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #lisp 13:29:05 (cl:eval (list (find-symbol "IF") ...)) vs. (inference:engine (list (find-symbol "IF") ...)) 13:30:13 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 13:30:49 why would you want ("#'if) ? 13:30:58 (#'if) 13:31:20 I do not wan ((function if)), I want (if ...)) 13:31:49 Ah, syntax trees ... 13:32:18 ... had better bloody well be able to tell me about syntax. 13:32:45 abstract syntax. 13:32:51 so.. (eval (concatenate #'string (list (find-symbol "+") 1 2))) 13:33:09 'list perhaps? 13:33:21 opps, of cource 13:33:28 I'd just say symbolic expression. 13:34:07 Zhivago: yes, but when we speak to non lispers, this is too advanced a concept. 13:34:29 The symbol's meaning is determined during the eval 13:34:40 not the lookup 13:35:25 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:35:26 Zhivago: We use a subset of symbolic expressions, used to represent an abstract syntax tree of the source to explain them in terms they understand the mechanism of macros. Speaking of sexps in general and other evaluators would overflow them, I'm afraid. 13:35:36 est: yes. 13:35:52 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:14 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:39:28 http://cs-www.cs.yale.edu/homes/dvm/nil.html Has a good point. 13:40:06 but nil as false is convenient 13:40:32 just as (car nil) -> nil is conveninet 13:40:38 Perhaps, but consider the problem of (t nil) vs. (t ()) 13:40:46 That is what scheemers never got 13:40:52 Making the empty list be a symbol was really stupid. 13:41:16 There's no reason why you can't define (car empty-list) to be empty-list 13:41:24 not really (+) = 0 and (*) = 1 13:41:25 That's an unrelated issue. 13:41:33 it's just a empty set 13:41:58 or rather sequence 13:42:06 It might be stupid, but it doesn't relate to nil as false. 13:42:23 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:43:24 (let ((pos (position x y)) (when pos (print pos))) 13:43:45 -!- fgtech [n=federico@87.8.225.187] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:44:10 "The "don't care" role may seem odd, but in fact it's fairly common to return nil in a context where the value will be ignored." 13:44:12 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-142-30.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 13:44:20 doesn't one use (values) for that? 13:44:23 How far are you willing to go for convenience? To the point that "0" is false? :) 13:44:43 dlowe: Historically people have not done so. 13:44:52 dlowe: I use (values) at least. Less confusing. 13:45:12 fxr_ [i=bc03e492@gateway/web/freenode/x-tizcxviszynqowcu] has joined #lisp 13:45:15 worse if gethash 13:45:27 So, do you write (progn (print x) (values))? 13:45:35 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:45:48 In many cases nil just falls off the end without thinking about it. 13:45:50 returned nil or found nothing. 13:45:56 If the value of a function is to be ignored, I just put it in the docstring 13:45:59 you need another return value 13:46:11 which it has.. 13:46:11 unless it returns something obnoxiously large and I happen to execute it at the repl 13:46:30 est: There is no way to avoid that, unless you force the user to produce unique default tokens. 13:46:57 Zhivago: yes, it has one good point: the last sentence :-) 13:47:08 I don't use (not (null ...)) anymore. 13:47:34 And be happy, originally, 0 was used for nil^Wfalse and ()... 13:47:41 i am happy 13:48:21 I'm fine with generalized booleans. I think it'd fairly consistent if CL:NIL were a symbol that evaluated to an empty list (which would be its own unique object) 13:49:00 I find generalized boolean simplifies the code. 13:49:06 Wonder if that would break too many things to make it into cltl3 13:49:27 After all, this is LISt Processing, so it makes sense that () be false and NIL. 13:49:54 dlowe: I doubt there will ever be a clth3 of a new ANSII standard for that matter. 13:51:02 generalized boolean basically means nothing vs. something 13:52:05 and everything that isnt nothing (subclass of null) is something (subclass of t) 13:53:36 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.192.253] has quit [] 13:53:41 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 13:55:26 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:55:43 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 13:56:59 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 13:58:13 -!- dto [n=user@cpe-24-31-141-95.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:59:30 -!- fxr_ [i=bc03e492@gateway/web/freenode/x-tizcxviszynqowcu] has left #lisp 13:59:37 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:49 salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has joined #lisp 14:01:52 'morning 14:02:10 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-102-112.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:02:43 morning salex 14:03:14 how goes? 14:03:26 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp121-44-203-158.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:08:45 kitallis [n=kitallis@122.162.140.219] has joined #lisp 14:08:50 logBot2001 [n=logBot@59.96.47.39] has joined #lisp 14:10:42 pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 14:11:18 sepult` [n=user@87.78.101.112] has joined #lisp 14:11:33 -!- sepult` [n=user@87.78.101.112] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:13:00 sepult` [n=user@87.78.101.112] has joined #lisp 14:13:34 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.192.253] has joined #lisp 14:15:03 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-102-112.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:15:08 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 14:15:14 -!- sepult [n=user@87.78.101.112] has quit [Client Quit] 14:15:38 dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #lisp 14:15:53 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 14:19:00 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:23:56 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-142-30.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:26:08 Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:29:46 -!- pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.50] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:29:56 hi Krystof 14:30:16 wotcha 14:30:20 *Xof* is multicomputered 14:30:26 I see that! How goes? 14:31:07 ok, thanks 14:31:11 not much lisp hacking 14:31:25 likewise. depressingly little. 14:31:30 not much hacking, full stop. "Become an Academic! See a world of Paper!" 14:31:49 in fact lately i've mostly been rewriting really terrible grad student matlab code into slighly more useable ... matlab code 14:32:09 Speaking of which ('become an academic') i'm seriously considering leaving 14:32:26 -!- logBot2001 [n=logBot@59.96.47.39] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:32:29 trebor_dki [n=user@130.83.156.186] has joined #lisp 14:32:47 salex: I can quite understand that 14:33:09 This year the market really sucked, and then somehow it didn't 14:33:21 so i have a handful of offers, most of which not interested in 14:33:28 *Xach* has been hacking the lisp 14:33:40 however, i have two now i have to decide about 14:33:49 one is decent research t-t position 14:34:03 the other a start up so new it doesn't really exist yet. 14:34:09 but it sounds like a lot of fun 14:34:29 and they want me to head up software 14:34:30 Xach: really? Tell us more! 14:34:38 Xach: yes please!@ 14:34:41 Xach: do not let us whiny academics negativize the channel 14:34:54 save us from my blather about how hard it is to have options 14:35:14 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 14:35:19 I made some more weird animated graphics toys and I need hefner's help to finish it 14:35:25 But hefner is somewhere on vacation, I think 14:35:53 Oh no! You have tried to achieve something during August 14:35:59 heh 14:36:13 I have to capitalize on my wave of French teen attention 14:36:27 I have gotten 10x my normal traffic for 60 days, all for very old animation generators. 14:37:16 Although probably French teens are not deeply imprinted with original NES Super Mario screens...hmm. 14:39:08 No matter. Old Americans can try it, and click the mario-themed ads. 14:39:18 sweet! 14:39:35 *Xach* will fund a European lisp trip with the proceeds 14:39:35 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:39:57 Xach: don't forget my cut! 14:40:11 Xach: link? 14:40:15 i shan't! 14:40:27 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:31 madnificent: http://xach.com/tmp/joelr1.gif has an early prototype 14:40:35 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32FFDB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:42 it will go on wigflip.com with customization options when finished 14:40:58 maybe your cut can fund a EU lisp trip too, Xof, given the different distances 14:41:15 Xach: copy-rights? 14:41:34 and it looks cool! fits the wigflip theme 14:41:37 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 14:41:42 madnificent: no problem! i changed one pixel and nobody will recognize it! 14:41:51 :P 14:42:20 actually, i am looking forward to wigflip's future first C&D letter. i don't think this will cause one. 14:42:34 Xof: anyway, I've got to decide this week, so change is in the air at any rate 14:42:50 do they *need* to send you a C&D first? or can they sue you from the start? 14:43:10 madnificent: I'll have to refer that question to my attorney 14:43:27 if a C&D is required, you have no risk 14:43:37 most places, if it's a commercial interest they can sue you retroactively for revenue or whatever 14:43:38 Xach: I know a good lawyer. We might have to convince his employer to open a hotel in Maine first 14:43:46 i was actually hoping despair.com might try to hassle me over automotivator, but it probably isn't on their radar. 14:43:50 but that's separate issue from the C&D 14:44:02 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 14:44:20 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:44:31 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-116-100.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 14:44:35 Xach: it looks like a legitimate application... it could be patented, but then it would only count in the US 14:44:59 epsil0n [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 14:45:02 IANYL, but I say worry about it when it happens, and not before. 14:45:16 *madnificent* is scared by laws 14:45:19 -!- epsil0n [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 14:45:47 *splittist* wonders what the setup and carrying cost of Wigflip LLC would be 14:45:54 splittist: that is my thinking. it feels a little bit like wondering "how will i scale to facebook-level popularity?!" 14:46:48 Xach: get interest from google -> loads of attention -> ??? -> profit 14:47:00 s/google/skyrock/ 14:47:06 LoL 14:47:27 I think you have a missing "???" right at the beginning there 14:48:06 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:48:20 it's skyrock right now 14:48:29 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:51:32 zeroish [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 14:52:00 I'm getting a cray-cx1! 14:52:17 personal supercomputer 14:52:23 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.192.253] has quit [] 14:52:38 you finally would be able to calculate Pi? 14:52:46 Xach: Today Skyrock, tomorrow QQ! (Once the simplified Chinese translations come on line...) 14:53:03 Actually, I'm more into machine learning 14:53:03 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:54:06 You won't like this: I mostly use matlab 14:54:30 It has a direct interface to LAPACK 14:54:45 matlab is a mixed blessing for machine learning, fwiw 14:55:03 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 14:55:04 It scales well. 14:55:14 it scales ok 14:55:25 it's a lousy general purpose language though 14:55:31 indeed 14:55:34 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [No route to host] 14:55:37 so you have a bunch of existing package, which is nice 14:55:40 est: how much cores does your cx1 have? 14:55:43 but many of them kind of suck 14:55:57 and writing really new research code is a pain 14:56:01 6 and a nvidea graphics core 14:56:13 so like i said, mixed blessing 14:56:26 so 6 blades, 12 processors and 48 cores 14:56:28 est: does matlab use CUDA? 14:56:35 no 14:56:42 no it doesn't 14:56:48 it has some MPI type capabilities 14:56:49 That has to be hand coded in C 14:57:04 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:57:14 i just got a new machine too :) too big for my desk though 14:57:30 Quadrescence [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #lisp 14:57:35 can you use at as a desk? 14:57:40 (stack of dual quads) 14:57:46 But codinghorror told me all programming was web programming. I'm confused... 14:57:49 so it's a little tall for desk too 14:58:02 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:10 .. and warm 14:59:45 it could be used as a water heater 15:00:03 if any paper catches fire, it probably wasn't important to begin with 15:00:11 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.183.111] has joined #lisp 15:01:42 jeremiah2 [n=jeremiah@imaxeson.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:04 logBot2985 [n=logBot@59.92.190.88] has joined #lisp 15:02:11 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:02:35 A cx1 needs to powersupplies which should be wired to seperate 10 amp fuses or if the power goes it draws enough power to blow one 15:02:36 ln5 [n=Adium@nordutug-gw.nordu.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:40 yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@79-126-48-114.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 15:02:49 two 15:02:56 Xof: tell it to the librarians at Alexandria. ;) 15:03:10 just as soon as I build my time machine 15:03:18 *Fade* chuckles 15:03:47 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:04:38 It seems to me a 100 000 dollars today is about the same as they spendt on a lsip machine back in the 80's (adjusing for inflation) 15:04:44 lisp 15:05:43 -!- est [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:05:49 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 15:06:29 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:06:57 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:09:18 est [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 15:09:49 hi 15:11:30 fgtech [n=federico@host187-225-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:11:35 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:12:14 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:12:38 Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 15:12:46 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-112.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:13:48 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:15:42 -!- Handcrafted [n=henrik@0x573bbf5a.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.ronqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:16:20 -!- prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:18:55 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:20:14 -!- logBot2985 [n=logBot@59.92.190.88] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:20:19 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-101-112.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:20:55 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 15:22:31 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [No route to host] 15:22:40 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:23:13 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:26:16 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:24 -!- _phil1901 [n=thot@203-73-249-80.adsl.dynamic.seed.net.tw] has quit [Client Quit] 15:30:04 manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6D8B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:32 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6DB4A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:30:34 -!- est [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:30:52 est [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 15:31:25 hi 15:32:01 Seem to be falling out.. 15:35:08 -!- pingi [n=pingi@p5B02D845.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:35:43 cmm [n=cmm@CPE001d0fd70d4d-CM00186851ecb8.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:37:01 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 15:41:32 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 15:42:05 does anyone use cxml and the klacks parser? 15:42:22 i'm looking for some example code 15:42:24 syamajala: i use it 15:42:57 syamajala: zs3 has some examples. 15:43:11 it's a little bit tailored to the typical S3 xml though. 15:43:52 i'm not completely sure how to go about doing what i'm trying to do 15:44:25 What do you want to do? 15:46:19 make a gallery type app that can get pictures from an iphoto library 15:46:55 Do you think klacks is the best way to get that info? 15:47:19 well the xml file is about 14mb 15:47:34 my iphoto library is pretty big 15:47:34 milanj [n=milan@93.86.186.243] has joined #lisp 15:47:40 i think its around 30gb 15:47:43 my computer has way more thatn 14MB of memory... 15:48:11 so should i use sax? 15:48:36 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.23] has quit ["Valete!"] 15:48:48 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:49:02 I don't really know. I guess 14MB doesn't sound so giant that you have to process it incrementally. It might be, but I wouldn't assume that up front. 15:49:33 generally with a GUI you would expect to need at least 35 Mb 15:49:58 i guess i could give it a try then 15:50:12 *_8david* would just parse into STP for a file this small 15:50:25 *Xach* recently loaded a 300MB text file into memory objects for processing, but did have to buy $50 worth of memory to be comfortable 15:51:26 *est* has 384 Gb of RAM on his CS1 15:51:56 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:53:06 yaroslav_h_ [n=yaroslav@93-120-166-215.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 15:53:30 -!- yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@79-126-48-114.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:53:34 -!- yaroslav_h_ is now known as yaroslav_h 15:53:43 jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:54:02 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 15:57:49 -!- yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@93-120-166-215.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 15:59:49 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:59:57 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:23 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 16:00:42 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:00:44 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:02:58 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 16:07:24 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:07:54 bulibuta [n=bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has joined #lisp 16:08:33 -!- srcerer_ is now known as srcerer 16:08:49 Everybody already noticed the impact of debian's move to dash on SBCL's build? 16:09:32 Witch_Doc [n=me@69.196.64.134] has joined #lisp 16:09:40 did they move? 16:10:00 yeah, s/bash/dash/, as /bin/sh 16:10:27 i'm pretty skeptical about the merits of that move. 16:11:01 I'm skeptical too. Nevertheless, anybody who assumed /bin/sh was bash had a buggy program. 16:11:29 -!- aminorex [n=aminorex@24-179-163-72.dhcp.dlth.mn.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:11:37 foom, this includes sbcl's make.sh, which assumes the existence of the `time' builtin.. 16:11:58 deepfire_: it requires the time builtin? not just "time" existing? 16:12:12 i have /usr/bin/time on my debian 16:12:29 stassats: that is an optional install, however. 16:12:55 foom, no, I stand corrected, I don't have /usr/bin/time.. 16:13:17 using dash as sh is optional too 16:13:28 stassats: true, but it's now default. 16:13:52 in what debian? experimental? 16:13:56 unstable 16:14:02 because i don't have dash in sid 16:14:46 as of a few weeks ago, dash is an essential package, which gets it pulled in automatically 16:14:58 furthermore, if you didn't previously have dash installed, the install script will set dash as the default /bin/sh 16:15:11 i see, it had kept back bash for some reason 16:15:13 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:16:05 -!- deepfire_ is now known as deepfire 16:17:33 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 16:18:27 it asked me whether i want dash as /bin/sh, i didn't agree 16:21:28 What's to be skeptical about that move? 16:22:56 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-116-100.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:23:10 Isn't dash considerably faster? Hm might make more sense for Gentoo who has to run shellscripts quite a lot, I guess. For Debian it may only make a difference for system startup but I can feel sentiment with trying to make that very fast. 16:24:28 tcr: the skept on my part is that I think the pain vs benefit ratio is terribly out of whack. 16:24:52 pain: making sure every script anyone ever wants to run says #!/bin/bash on top, or else doesn't use any features 16:25:04 benefit: faster boot. (seriously, who cares?) 16:25:14 _phil12544 [n=thot@203.73.249.80] has joined #lisp 16:26:01 Who does not care? I think it's a selling point against Microsoft. 16:26:21 I don't care. Why would I? I boot machines maybe once a month 16:26:41 -!- jd8hh57 [n=mickey@host217-34-51-26.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has left #lisp 16:26:53 These days, that's eccentric. 16:26:54 maybe someday soon the price of electricity will rise enough that you will care 16:27:22 *stassats* uses suspend for that 16:27:40 tcr: seriously? doesn't every just have a laptop these days? 16:27:57 s/every/everyone/ 16:28:32 Suspending has never worked for me. In fact, for whatever stupid reason, the battery will only last about 5minutes with Linux. 16:29:08 Okay, so suspending on linux is broken. But rather than fixing that, people are putting insane amounts of effort into reducing boot time. Doesn't make sense to me. 16:29:10 tcr: that doesn't sound like a good selling point against Windows :-) 16:29:53 tcr, what's eccentric about using linux? ;-) 16:30:15 and yea, it's not just linux, Apple did all sorts of special-purpose crud just to reduce boot time on OSX, and of course, so did MS. 16:30:45 still doesn't make sense to me, why anyone would voluntarily shut down frequently enough to care, instead of just suspending. 16:30:46 is suspend on linux universally borked, or is it vendor dependent? 16:30:51 kjbrock [n=kevin@239.sub-75-208-109.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 16:31:00 salex, happens to just work for me.. 16:31:01 salex: vendor-dependent. Works fine on my laptop 16:31:01 salex: vendor and add-on hardware dependent 16:31:03 -!- HG` [n=HG@85.8.91.88] has quit [Client Quit] 16:31:08 -!- _phil12544 [n=thot@203.73.249.80] has quit [Client Quit] 16:31:41 well that makes more sense then. if it's particular vendors being unhelpful, i can see some people not working on reverse eng. teh problem, rather than other things 16:31:43 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:31:51 *salex* hasn't run linux on a laptop in ages 16:32:17 foom: People have been trained for years to properly shut down their system. 16:32:50 tcr: I suppose. Everyone I know just closes the lid on their laptop when they're done with it. 16:33:13 (and that makes it suspend) 16:33:44 I was about to say the opposite. Perhaps it's because I shut down, so they do, too because they watched me doing it :) 16:33:59 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:34:45 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:35:00 HG` [n=HG@85.8.91.88] has joined #lisp 16:36:04 Actually I was pretty much surprised it worked fine on my MSI laptop. I remember only a couple of suspend-related glitches in alpha Ubuntu releases. 16:36:27 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-bdewxovbwgftubne] has joined #lisp 16:37:29 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32FFDB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:41 -!- ironChicken [n=richard@158.223.51.84] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:41:47 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.218.65] has joined #lisp 16:42:58 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:43:25 -!- rread [n=rread@adsl-75-45-210-14.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:44:22 hi, I'm trying to share variables across two sbcl instances and wondering if there's an easier way to do it than using sb-bsd-sockets. long-winded question here http://eriknomitch.com/misc/question.txt 16:47:18 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:09 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host187-225-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:49:25 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:49:43 Guest73580 [n=kenjin@221.162.108.236] has joined #lisp 16:50:07 egn: i don't know the answer to your question but I like your music in nodes.fm 16:50:38 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:26 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:51:41 lhz [n=shrekz@213.114.170.185] has joined #lisp 16:52:30 egn: sharing pasive state (as in variables) is one thing but sharing a function (with possible lexical closures) is another thing. I do not know of an easy way of doing it, but then again, I'm not an advanced lisp programmer 16:56:06 egn: not portably, and not without a good amoutn of hair. 16:56:55 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:33 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ivkxnnefqohnwczi] has joined #lisp 16:58:25 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:59:42 egn: i'm working on a remote-eval lib, but it's not ready yet 17:01:20 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p4FD3C4BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:04:01 -!- ln5 [n=Adium@nordutug-gw.nordu.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:04:31 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:05:25 there is swank 17:07:44 -!- HG` [n=HG@85.8.91.88] has quit [Client Quit] 17:13:24 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:14:44 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:15:35 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:18:29 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.186.243] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:20:54 -!- geltoob [n=JLP@71.92.98.86] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:22:50 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2775.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:24 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:32:38 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:27 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:34:52 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:06 letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has joined #lisp 17:38:42 -!- piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:41:14 piso [n=peter@ip98-176-76-28.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:48 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:46:14 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:48:02 -!- Reav__ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:50:50 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit ["leaving"] 17:53:34 fgtech [n=federico@host187-225-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:54:30 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 17:55:40 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-173.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 17:59:15 -!- kjbrock [n=kevin@239.sub-75-208-109.myvzw.com] has quit [] 18:01:34 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:15:30 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:55 ln5 [n=Adium@h199n2c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 18:17:59 jleija: why thank you. alright, thanks anyways 18:18:17 attila_lendvai: is it using sb-bsd-sockets? 18:18:20 -!- Guest73580 [n=kenjin@221.162.108.236] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:18:27 Xach: is there any material online from the Boston Lisp Meeting? I'd like to see the stuff Bruce Lewis talked about :) 18:18:32 milanj [n=milan@79.101.79.18] has joined #lisp 18:19:49 -!- letexpx is now known as a_bat 18:20:08 pkhuong: alright. how would you do it with hair involved? 18:20:37 madnificent: i'm not sure. he had html slides prepared, but i don't know if he published them. 18:20:43 egn: iolib 18:20:44 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:13 Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 18:21:33 -!- a_bat is now known as letexpx 18:21:33 Xach: can I contact him somehow? or can you ask him to publish it? (or is there some way I might find them if he has published them) 18:22:14 madnificent: You could send him an email, I'm sure. 18:22:25 -!- ln5 [n=Adium@h199n2c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:22:54 madnificent: It was not a very advanced talk. It was more along the lines of "here's the syntax of scheme, and here's why it's really cool to be able to go from 'gee, wouldn't it be nice' code to real working code" 18:23:20 ahhh, perhaps not worth bugging him for it then 18:23:37 Are there any precompiled Lispbox packages for GNU/Linux-x86? 18:24:16 madnificent: he is a friendly and helpful guy, he might share whatever he has 18:24:42 does iolib have documentation with examples yet? 18:25:04 no 18:26:18 Athas: http://gigamonkeys.com/lispbox/#download 18:27:18 Athas: are you trying to give lisp to somebody? 18:27:47 Fade: yes. 18:28:15 *stassats* downloaded it, sbcl 0.9.7, emacs 21 18:28:25 i wouldn't give it to anyone 18:28:27 a classic experience 18:28:56 if they're on linux, you'd be better off just giving them a shell script that downloads clbuild and invokes an sbcl build on their host. 18:28:59 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:29:47 I have one I use to build project specific images that I could send you, but it'd require you tailor it to remove some of my project specific asd linkage which would fail outside my environment. 18:29:52 and sbcl even doesn't want to work Error opening runtime: dlopen: invalid caller. 18:30:00 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:30:23 Athas: What distribution are you talking about? 18:30:33 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:31:08 pbusser3: Any distribution. I know that's not possible, but I just want something that will run on your average fresh Ubuntu, Debian, etc. 18:31:46 Athas: There are many cl- packages in Debian. They should also be available for Ubuntu, if you apply the correct /etc/apt/sources.list magic (I don't know the details). 18:32:01 Adlai was talking something about updating lispbox 18:32:33 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:32:39 Athas: Also I have created many updated Debian packages for my own use. However, I have problems with the ISP where my server is located, so I can't make them available for upload right now. 18:33:07 Athas: My current work on Lispbox has two main targets: 18:33:19 Athas: Updated cl- packages I mean. And I created several new ones, like for instance weblocks. 18:33:30 *pbusser3* & 18:33:35 a) updating it in general -- for example, my version now uses Emacs 23 and the SLIME-of-the-day. 18:33:46 b) making a better binary for Windows, using CCL 18:34:22 Adlai: what about possible clbuild4windows? 18:34:36 I don't have an x86 Linux box, but I could try and update the relevant parts of the code, and you could just build it. 18:35:07 p_l: hm, I haven't looked at how clbuild works on the inside. I think you'd have to fiddle with ASDF to get that to work right; I know that Lispbox for Windows messes a bit with ASDF. 18:35:36 Adlai: there isn't much to change to make asdf use cl-fad and recursively search directories 18:36:19 It's getting clbuild to run on Windows that I'm not sure about, although I guess maybe it could work on Cygwin. 18:37:22 Adlai: I'm thinking more among the lines of "windows app that shares it's project lists with clbuild" 18:38:01 hm, you mean bundling clbuild with Lispbox? 18:38:15 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:38:26 more like an application that would provide the same functionality 18:40:29 hmm. I know even less about hacking Windows than I do about *nix, but I could try. 18:40:33 <_8david> p_l: that would be nice 18:40:38 <_8david> I'd like clbuild mode in hemlock, which shows the list of clbuild projects and provides the essential clbuild commands. 18:40:49 <_8david> Underlying this, there would be a "clbuild.lisp" reimplementation of the most clbuild-the-shell-script features, implemented by calling out to the external programs like git, cvs, etc. directly. 18:41:20 Adlai: well, it could be done in elisp for the time being, or in .NET (any non-ancient install of windows should have .NET 2.0 installed) 18:41:22 <_8david> (This would work on Linux, too.) 18:41:26 hm, writing it in Lisp would (mostly) solve the portability problems. 18:41:32 <_8david> An installable "clbuild4windows" version be a packaging of this application together with windows binaries for the version control software. 18:41:57 p_l: are you thinking of something that wouldn't require Cygwin though? 18:41:59 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:42:15 because I have absolutely no idea (right now) how that'd be done. It would be really helpful, though. 18:42:32 _8david: I was thinking of MSI package with CCL, Emacs-W32, clbuild4windows and Git/Svn/darcs/etc in modules that you can choose whether to install or not 18:42:36 _8david: if commonqt says "don't know how to unmarshall some class", does that mean that unmarshalling should be added manually for each class? 18:43:29 <_8david> stassats: yes, sometimes you need to add a method to unmarshal.lisp to teach it about some type. 18:43:51 <_8david> p_l: makes sense. I was thinking of the same thing, except with s/emacs/hemlock/. 18:44:15 ok, (or not-ok, because i don't know c++ at all) 18:44:20 <_8david> cygwin should be avoided, unless there really happens to be a version control system that still doesn't have a native implementation. 18:44:45 Native lisp implementation? 18:44:49 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2775.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:44:52 _8david: I agree, I'd preferably have all binaries depend only on NT+win32. 9x can screw itself :P 18:45:10 <_8david> nyef: no, native to windows, as opposed to cygwin 18:45:29 though code running on CCL would count as native :P 18:45:39 Yeah, I figured, but with such things as cl-darcs floating around out there... 18:45:49 ... not that cl-darcs struck me as being particularly usable... 18:46:12 <_8david> once a usable, pure-lisp git, darcs, hg, cvs, svn appears, we will use it! :-) 18:46:39 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 18:46:40 <_8david> p_l: IIANM, ccl is even >= XP 18:47:42 Mmm... CCL uses the segment selector hacking functions that are exposed via up-calls through ntdll.dll, and are thus nigh impossible to obtain documentation on. 18:47:49 _8david: that's just a simple matter of programming 18:48:29 -!- kitallis [n=kitallis@122.162.140.219] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:48:41 kitallis [n=kitallis@122.162.140.219] has joined #lisp 18:50:31 What about fixing up Lispbox, though? I realize it wouldn't be as good a solution, but it seems a lot more manageable (to me) 18:52:31 By the same token, though, it's actually Not Hard to do segment selector hacking in 9x, simply because there's a hole in the win16 DPMI host from way back when that allows for direct access to the selector table from ring3. 18:52:33 Adlai: to be really usable it would still need to have MSI (or MSI-compatible) installer or work "out-of-zip". And what we just talked about isn't that hard. My main problem would be that I don't have a working windows environment at the moment :) 18:53:11 nyef: you could probably wrestle pagetables from ring3 on win9x :P 18:53:17 I just read here: about building an MSI, and I don't think I could do it either -- the windows computer that I have access too is by no means a "Clean PC", and it's not an a network either... 18:53:45 Adlai: there's GPLed compiler of MSI files from Microsoft, though :) 18:53:47 dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 18:54:02 btw, are you a student?" 18:54:07 p_l: s/of/that builds/? 18:54:09 p_l: Umm... Actually, I don't know that you could, but getting to ring0 is trivial. 18:54:27 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:54:40 p_l: not exactly. 18:54:41 Adlai: it's afaik important part of MSI system 18:57:06 p_l: what do you mean a "compiler of MSI files 18:57:08 "? 18:57:55 Adlai: what does "compiler" mean to you? 18:58:02 Adlai: It gets an XML description of the installator, and makes a .msi file out of it 18:58:16 new Visual Studio versions use it for creating installers 18:58:20 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:30 Hun [n=Hun@p4FD3C4BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:48 ok, I see. I thought it somehow compiler the MSI into something else. So the problem is now producing the XML description... is there software that does that? 18:58:53 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 18:58:59 Emacs :) 18:59:10 \o/ 18:59:49 Is there a site where I can read up about this? I don't want to nag about it here... 19:00:00 Google 19:00:07 Adlai: afaik it's called WiX 19:00:14 Google search seems to not be my friend today... 19:00:22 Yeah, this kb article looks to be more for network admins who want to convert something like an installshield to an msi and then push the msi to their network via some update service. 19:01:12 yeah, and it's from Microsoft -> yech. 19:01:34 WiX otoh -> 19:01:37 nyef: building MSI files is common on Microsoft networks for automated deployments 19:01:42 -!- prip [n=_prip@host100-132-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:01:48 looks like Google is my friend again. 19:01:58 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["Portable clbuild4windows would be kool"] 19:02:01 ... I figured as much, yes. 19:03:02 nyef: instead of KB, peruse MSDN 19:03:18 *nyef* isn't the one asking about creating MSIs. 19:03:53 lol. How is the MS site for "communication with Open Source Community" called? 19:04:32 Port 25 19:04:59 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 19:05:01 http://www.codeplex.com/ ? 19:05:22 ace4016: no, that's their sourceforge-like site 19:05:32 port25 is for MS projects regarding OpenSource 19:05:53 ah; was linked on code plex 19:06:03 Well, here is blog number two. The initial shock has worn off a bit I hope. <-- In Blog about Linux Integration Components 19:06:26 lol 19:07:25 well, when Gates quit MS I heard a joke that he will take on FreeBSD administration... 19:07:49 dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #lisp 19:08:47 the thing is that MS is afaik only venomous when GPL is involved. FreeBSD had afaik quite a big impact on Windows Server, for example 19:09:30 and they used bsd network stack 19:10:08 stassats: the fact that Windows Server roadmap includes moving all administration tasks to CLI is also partly because of that 19:10:55 they didn't use the bsd network stack...if they had, it wouldn't be so broken. 19:10:56 -!- kitallis [n=kitallis@122.162.140.219] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:11:26 foom: NT includes portions of BSD network stack in kernel 19:11:29 they used bsd userspace network utils (e.g. ftp), and perhaps /some/ code from the bsd network stack. 19:11:48 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6D8B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 19:11:49 prip [n=_prip@host100-132-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:12:00 and NT6 had its network stack iirc rewritten using code from some recent version of FreeBSD 19:12:42 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:17:39 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 19:19:34 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:20:57 GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:37 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:22:52 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:26:51 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 19:27:17 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:25 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-30-143.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:30:43 *Xach* is digging dan weinreb's tech talk so far 19:31:04 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-23-33.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:31:13 -!- npoektop` [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:32:08 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:37:10 ahh, the Airport reservation guy, originally from symbolics and in the ANSII CL group. 19:38:59 ln5 [n=Adium@h199n2c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:22 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.183.111] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:41:08 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:42:33 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.253.128] has joined #lisp 19:43:13 ahh, the markov-chain demonstration guy, supposedly from opera and sometimes in the comp.lang.lisp group 19:43:29 tcr: Robert Maas? 19:44:28 I wouldn't be surprised if it's a bot written by him :) 19:45:12 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 19:45:37 Has anyone ever used ~* ? 19:45:57 i use it 19:46:25 What for? 19:46:39 tcr: i used it today 19:47:13 tcr: in a print-object method: "size: ~Dx~:*~D" (size object) 19:47:38 neat 19:48:11 i used it in slime recently: ~a function~:p ~:*~[are~;is~:;are~] now profiled 19:48:26 ~:p is like ~:*~P 19:48:58 Ah yes it probably make sense in that context. 19:49:33 I think ~/ is "misdesigned". They should have specified ~@/.../ to take the remaining args, like ~@{ and ~@< do. 19:50:50 Then you could write ~@<~@{~W~^~:_~}~:> simply as ~@/PPRINT-FILL/ 19:53:17 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:10 tcr: the whole point of format strings is that you get to (or have to, depending on your POV) write the former. 19:55:07 That's obviously not true, given the existence of ~/ in the spec and pprint-fill/linear etc 19:55:45 *Adlai* does naught but jest. 19:56:24 are there any other libraries for abstracting away hash/alist implementations/functions like deftable? 19:56:59 defun is enough for me 19:59:03 rpg: not to beat a dead horse, but is there still any reason to hope for a resolution to the asdf symlink-on-non-symlinky-OSs quagmire? 19:59:18 rpg: can't we just use text files? 20:00:39 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-173.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 20:01:08 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:01:47 yeah, I guess simple defun is simple enough. Thanks stassats. 20:04:10 antifuchs: well, we can just use a recursive search... 20:04:27 p_l: plz don't be ridiculous 20:04:33 -!- bunz [n=bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has quit ["bye"] 20:04:51 Why? recursive search + index? 20:05:04 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p4FD3C4BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:05:11 antifuchs: recursive search + sensible locations of of files should be enough 20:05:30 and what is sensible is to be determined 20:06:09 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:06:14 antifuchs: having all .asd files in the main directory of the library, thus creating a depth 2 tree, packagename/*.asd 20:07:14 p_l: first of all .asd files are not always in the toplevel directory of a package 20:07:26 also, I may not want to expose all .asd files 20:07:31 the braindead-simple solution that I can think of is to just have a "poor man's symlink" for each system, that would just be a text file with the name of the name of the system and the directory path where the .asd could be found. 20:07:52 just put the full path name of the .asd file in the text file 20:08:07 yeah. 20:08:26 it's /exactly the same thing/ as a symlink, except you don't create it by ln, but by echo. 20:08:37 even better, because then the .asd file doesn't necessarily (although by convention, would) have to be a .asd file. 20:09:03 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [] 20:09:43 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AB78.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:44 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.253.128] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:10:21 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:17 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:11:26 Dunno I like the recursive search + index idea. This would mean I just check out in my general source directory, then type (require :foo) and select a restart to rebuild the index. 20:11:57 the great thing is that you can already do this 20:12:05 i am very surprised about the variance of speed of different lisps. i did a very simple summing of random numbers (not a benchmark, but i do monte-carlo simulations ;) (numbers-per-second (dotimes/loop)-> sbcl 5.7e7 / 2.4e7, gcc 4.5e7, elisp 2.0e6 / 7.0e6(!), ccl 3.3e6 / 0.4e6 (?), ecl 2.1e6 / 3.1e6 (?) 20:12:16 antifuchs: That's true 20:12:42 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-101-112.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:13:50 just write a system definition search function and put it on *system-definition-search-functions* 20:14:16 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 20:14:40 Sure. I think asdf should consider a contrib system. 20:14:54 nice idea 20:15:08 also, heh. that would make asdf contribs into sbcl contrib contribs (-: 20:15:13 But a better on than Slime please 20:15:18 one 20:15:38 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:15:44 tee hee 20:17:06 tcr: I think that slime's works well(with a few changes) 20:17:29 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:17:45 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:19:29 Uh it's totally ad-hoc, no boundaries, just big ball of mud. I don't like that 20:19:52 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:19:54 "no boundaries" ? 20:20:07 No layers 20:20:22 jao [n=jao@31.Red-83-33-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:32 It's pretty much just split into multiple files, loaded on users' demand 20:21:33 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:21:35 trebor pasted "random-number-summing (not a benchmark) - but still surprising (me)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85610 20:22:21 jewel pasted "Asserted type CHARACTER conflicts with derived type " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85611 20:22:50 I don't understand why the compiler is raising an error for this method 20:23:18 maybe i did something totally wrong for ecl/ccl so if somebody knows how to speed up ecl/ccl considerably i would be lucky to get a hint. 20:23:29 -!- vsync____ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:23:39 jewel_, you initialized X to nil, and never set it to anything else anywhere. So wherever you refer to it, such as in (CHAR-CODE X), its value will be nil. But CHAR-CODE wants a value of type CHARACTER. 20:24:13 tic: how much did you have to bribe someone to get that home phone number? 20:24:13 You set OMETA::X somewhere, but that's a different symbol and hence is bound to a different variable. 20:24:18 um, but it is set to something 20:24:23 in the other lambda form 20:24:28 (SETF OMETA::X OMETA::V) 20:24:34 -!- jewel_ is now known as jewel 20:25:00 of course the compiler can't prove that that closure will be executed before using X 20:25:08 No, jewel, there are two different variables. 20:25:14 dto [n=user@cpe-24-31-141-95.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:25:18 oh 20:25:37 The symbols bound to those variables happen to share strings, "X", but, having different home packages (OMETA versus whatever is the current one), they are different symbols. 20:26:00 So, in fact, SBCL can prove that X is always nil. 20:26:08 yes, thanks, I understand now 20:26:51 beach, about 250 SEK. :-) 20:26:56 beach, nice huh? 20:27:13 tic: Very nice, and not expensive! 20:27:38 beach, nope! and it's a SIP nmuber, so I can move it with me wherever I am. 20:28:13 tic: I bet that won't work if you move outside Sweden! 20:29:09 beach, oh but it does! 20:29:31 tic: So you keep the country code then? 20:29:33 beach, I have my phone connected to a box that logins to a server routign it. 20:29:35 beach, yeah. 20:30:02 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:30:12 I see. 20:30:14 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 20:30:22 -!- pdenno [n=pdenno@bigfuzz.mxnet.mel.nist.gov] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:30:46 tic: And that box and/or server needs to be located in Sweden? 20:31:19 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32FFDB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:48 beach, well, unless cellip.com terminates their service, I'm good. :-) 20:32:01 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:32:09 tic: You'll have to explain that to me next Monday. 20:32:24 beach, hehe. it's just a regular phone plan, that happens to be routed over the 'net. 20:32:41 tic: You'll have to explain that to me next Monday. :) 20:32:47 *laugh* alrigh 20:32:59 vsync____ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 20:34:35 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:45 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 20:40:05 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:40:43 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.253.128] has joined #lisp 20:41:16 -!- xan_ is now known as xan-afk 20:43:23 -!- cmm [n=cmm@CPE001d0fd70d4d-CM00186851ecb8.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 20:47:24 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:48:45 *luis* watches Dan Weinreb's talk 20:48:59 very interesting description of the "SBCL team", heh. 20:50:04 -!- ln5 [n=Adium@h199n2c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:50:35 What did he say? 20:51:43 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:52:23 emit [n=user@unaffiliated/emit] has joined #lisp 20:54:01 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.79.18] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:57:21 trebor_dki: my guess would be that ccl has slower RANDOM 21:00:21 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:00:31 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 21:01:41 rpg_ [n=rpg@c-75-73-49-33.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:46 dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #lisp 21:01:50 stassats: ok, but ecl should really be faster, isn't it? 21:02:02 i know about ecl even less 21:03:12 tcr: roughly "sbcl is maintained by this ragtag group of people who work on it when they feel like it, while clozure is a real company that's got some old-time pals of mine whom we can trust" 21:03:41 luis, where is his talk? 21:03:47 i see that ccl's RANDOM is not inlined 21:03:50 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xquJvmHF3S8 21:04:05 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:04:33 bytecolor pasted "texmacs-maxima plugin mod" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85612 21:04:36 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:04:39 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:04:41 or i don't see 21:05:22 fe[nl]ix, nice! thanks. 21:06:26 jsnell: He forgot harming the software industry for 10 years. But nice coincidence, I thought about this today and wanted to talk about this with nikodemus on ECLM. 21:06:47 you're comming too, aren't you? 21:07:17 yes. I didn't know nikodemus was coming, didn't see him on the registration list a week ago 21:07:58 He said he had the money for eclm and the sbcl birthday celebration 21:08:19 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:08:29 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Client Quit] 21:09:19 (which "this" did you want to talk about?) 21:09:38 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:11:35 bytecolor [n=user@32.159.255.45] has joined #lisp 21:11:36 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 21:11:44 I don't know how you guys would feel about it, but I thought he should associate his sb-studios more with the sbcl development. Starting with simple stuff like starting release announcements with "The SBCL Team and Sb-Studio Inc. are pleased to announce ..." (except it ain't no Inc actually, I think) 21:12:35 i.e. more advertisement? 21:12:38 triple [i=triple@pi.nxs.se] has joined #lisp 21:14:00 Yeah, but not so much for advertising sb-studios but for advertising that there's (or can be) more behind it than this ragtag group 21:14:07 milanj [n=milan@93.86.186.243] has joined #lisp 21:14:28 scode: \o 21:14:35 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 21:15:00 Common Lisp (tm) needs to go more corporate 21:15:13 i don't see sb-studio mentioned at sbcl.org 21:15:30 what is sbstudio 21:15:32 -!- blandest [n=user@79.112.98.116] has left #lisp 21:15:59 JAS415: http://sb-studio.net/ 21:16:14 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 21:16:36 dan weinreb? 21:17:09 what with him? 21:17:30 was he symbolics or something? 21:17:37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Weinreb 21:18:25 luis: no, what did Weinreb say? (I'm not about to watch his talk) 21:18:43 or is jsnell's summary accurate? 21:18:51 that' 21:19:02 i hear dan weinreb singlehandedly destroyed lisp :-P 21:19:17 s pretty accurate 21:19:23 sheesh 21:19:27 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Client Quit] 21:19:31 Krystof: it is. 21:19:37 now he tries to destroy SBCL 21:19:54 what's with him and the lisp hate 21:19:55 in all fairness, it's also a fair summary 21:20:10 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 21:20:37 nah. He said some nice words about CFFI. :-P 21:20:43 obviously people only work on sbcl when they feel like it (or somebody pays them enough to make them feel like it) 21:20:49 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:20:57 it's a better summary once his company stops paying for non-ragtag sbcl development and uses Clozure as a consultancy 21:21:14 and if the working relations with clozure were better than with sbcl thanks to pre-existing personal relations 21:21:25 well, yeah 21:21:37 i dunno 21:21:40 they both seem good 21:21:40 then that's a valid advantage for him. might not be for others 21:21:49 sbcl gets a lot of updates 21:22:17 ccl isn't standing still either 21:22:31 I don't think ita is paying for sbcl changes right now (but haven't talked with nikodemus for a couple of months, so maybe he's got new contracts) 21:22:32 serichse1 [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-150-135.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:22:47 yeah but just with regards to the argument that no one works on sbcl 21:22:54 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-189-107.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:22:57 seems like plenty of work happens on sbcl 21:23:07 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:23:10 nobody argued that 21:23:11 i didn't see such argued 21:23:13 JAS415: whose argument is that? 21:23:15 argument 21:23:25 oh 21:23:34 maybe i missed something :-/ 21:23:45 now, as for the argument that the moon is made of cheese, I think it's clear who is right and who is deluded 21:23:51 hrm, where did all the erc colors go... monochrome sux! 21:24:01 David Moon? 21:24:24 I like cheese 21:24:28 jsnell: right, that's (no ITA contracts) is what I refer to 21:24:49 maybe ita can switch to python 21:24:52 it's easy to say "SBCL developers aren't beholden to do what we want" if the previous action is to stop paying the sbcl developers :-) 21:26:36 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-137-240.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:27:38 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:51 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:28:43 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:28:49 -!- bytbox [n=sclawren@silverchips.mbhs.edu] has left #lisp 21:29:00 sbcl 1.0.30 released July 17, 2009 21:29:23 wow, there's a whole lot of Missing The Point going on here 21:29:32 bytecolor: thank you, captain obvious. 21:29:42 there's a lot of politics in lisp 21:29:50 I thought it was pointing out that somebody should be making a relase :-P 21:29:56 jsnell: heh 21:30:07 I can do one for a change 21:30:17 that's what happens when you join a conversation mid-stream ;) 21:30:17 see what I think of the new new Sourceforge Web Interface of Doom 21:31:01 Hm so I better be quick an get my pprinter patches out. 21:31:37 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 21:31:37 ok, I could do one next week if you don't have time now 21:31:56 I guess fixing delete-file should be done before a release though :-) 21:32:18 ln5 [n=Adium@h199n2c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:32:38 I'll release next week but freeze this weekend 21:33:21 Krystof: I have been looking over the special method combination you use in ASDF, and I'm a bit puzzled --- I would have thought you'd want outsiders' :arounds to run around the ASDF built-ins, but this seems to do the opposite... 21:33:28 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-116-100.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:33:44 -!- rpg_ is now known as rpg 21:34:30 rpg: heh, quite possible 21:34:45 it's entirely likely that I missed that 21:35:07 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [Client Quit] 21:35:31 amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 21:35:41 Krystof: unless I really misread the method-combination form, it seems like around runs around :around 21:36:01 you just wanted to use that sentence construction 21:36:21 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host187-225-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Success] 21:37:23 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:37:32 Krystof: guilty as charged. 21:38:20 Krystof: Actually, since the AROUNDs do error-handling/restarts, that may be quite appropriate; it's not the kind of behavior you want the outsider to modulate. 21:38:53 Different from an :around method that might, say, wrap a dynamic variable binding or modify a return value. 21:39:11 the use case was the :around method that deletes stale fasls 21:39:58 Krystof: Looks like the only two ASDF:AROUND methods do restart handling. 21:40:38 then maybe I got it right first time 21:40:39 Krystof: So there are two issues --- (1) you don't want to "use up" the :AROUND method and (2) you want to force it into the right ordering. 21:41:08 ASDF might be a good application for gigamonkey's literate programming project.... 21:41:10 bytbox [n=sclawren@silverchips.mbhs.edu] has joined #lisp 21:42:16 Krystof: thanks for taking the time to answer these questions --- they'll be very helpful tonight. 21:42:32 good luck! 21:43:06 (feel free to apologize on all our behalfs, and use in our defence that "it's marginally better than mk-defsystem") 21:43:44 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:43:52 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 21:43:53 What was the reason for writing something anew? 21:45:03 tcr: ? 21:45:25 to replace mk-defsystem? 21:45:29 yeah 21:46:15 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 21:48:38 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 21:52:29 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-112.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 21:53:23 tcr: I can't say for sure, but mk-defsystem was not very extensible, because it was really CLtL1. 21:53:53 it was also utterly impossible to maintain 21:54:03 if you think pathnames are bad, take a look at mk-defsystem 21:54:06 tcr: I don't recall if it used the load-truename trick to solve the problem of installing systems, or whether it still assumed (uck) logical pathnames as the solution. 21:54:23 *rpg* DOES think pathnames are bad. 21:54:41 Krystof: Argh. I might have to commit some stuff during the freeze; bugfixes though. 21:54:47 -!- Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:56:19 pkhuong: I will forgive you 21:56:42 rpg: logical pathnames, yes, but that wasn't all 21:57:56 -!- ln5 [n=Adium@h199n2c1o255.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:59:12 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:00:03 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:00:15 -!- htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.228.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:02:26 Krystof pasted "mk-defsystem highlights" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85615 22:03:57 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.192.253] has joined #lisp 22:04:14 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 22:05:08 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:06:13 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-167-74.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:08:25 Krystof: I think the expression "read it and weep," might be appropriate here. 22:08:40 Heh, probably "we" needs closer-to-pathnames, or something. 22:09:43 To be fair, I think MK-DEFSYSTEM grappled with less-successful lisp implementations than we have today, and some radically different filesystems. We really don't have the variety of filesystem structures that existed at the time this was written. 22:09:45 Which implies, of course, that all relevant unspecified parts are specified. 22:09:50 deepfire: fe[nl]ix is writing a "portable" reimplementation on top of iolob 22:10:14 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-247.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:10:19 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:10:20 I'm not sure what I think of a library designed for lobbing I/O.... 22:10:28 -!- Yuuhi`` [i=benni@p5483AD79.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:11:25 rpg: "lobrary" 22:12:35 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:13:13 My imagination is running away with me --- LOB-STRING, LOB-INTEGER, LOB-OBJECT... I visualize something reminiscent of siege warfare. 22:13:41 lobtorrent! 22:13:50 lobgcc! 22:14:01 -!- jao [n=jao@31.Red-83-33-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:14:40 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:15:12 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:14 I'm not sure what the input operations would be, since my inclination would be to duck in response to LOB-INTEGER, for example... 22:17:14 I wouldn't flince from a lob-integer, but a lob-hyperspec is daunting. 22:17:24 (and heavy) 22:18:14 lol 22:18:22 I am trying to debug my server which uses hunchentoot. Towards this end I am using break in the handlers in hunchentoot and it doesnt seem to have any effect. Also printing to *standard-output* has no effect either. I then tried using *break-on-signals* which does indeed break but it seems to kill my slime connection. any pointers ? 22:18:56 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.186.243] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:18:59 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.253.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:19:29 Dawgmatix_: set swank:*globally-redirect-io* to t to get *standard-output* showing in your repl rather than *inferior-lisp* 22:19:54 Dawgmatix_: (defun (repl-stream) (swank::connection.user-output (swank::default-connection))), then print to (repl-stream); alternatively put (setf swank:*globally-redirect-io* t) into ~/.swank.lisp, or whatever file is responsible for starting the swank server. 22:19:55 (I think it may have to be set actually before slime connects to swank; I forget) 22:20:02 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 22:20:09 thanks kpreid , tcr 22:20:54 antoni [n=user@176.Red-83-45-48.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:23 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit ["leaving"] 22:22:23 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:24:58 -!- rpg [n=rpg@c-75-73-49-33.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:25:09 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:16 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 22:26:55 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:24 -!- antoni [n=user@176.Red-83-45-48.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:32:37 dysinger [n=dysinger@98.246.183.155] has joined #lisp 22:37:07 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 22:37:59 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:40:39 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@213.114.170.185] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:46:09 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 22:48:25 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2775.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:57 syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:53:20 triple: Hey. You're here? :) 22:54:48 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:55:22 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:55:23 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:00:10 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [] 23:01:07 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 23:01:33 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:03:38 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [Client Quit] 23:04:16 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:22 -!- bytecolor [n=user@32.159.255.45] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:06:19 pluijzer [n=iisjmii@dhcp-077-248-127-112.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 23:06:29 chris2_ [n=chris@dslb-188-098-198-170.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:55 -!- chris2_ is now known as chris2 23:09:03 if I have a list like this > (list :slot1 "blah" :slot2 "etc") < can I somehow append it to (make-instance 'someclass)? 23:09:51 (apply #'make-instance 'someclass list) 23:11:03 thank you very much! the macro I made for it was getting ridicules :) 23:12:07 pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:12:40 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:13:29 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:05 pluijzer: you'll find apply to be a very useful function. 23:18:14 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:18:36 yes, wish I knew it before 23:18:42 (multiple-value-call #'make-instance 'some-class (if (oddp (random 10)) (values :some-key "some-value") (values :some-other-key "some-other-value" :yet-another-key "yet-another-value"))) ;; is also sometimes very useful, pluijzer 23:19:37 *stassats* doesn't like to use m-v-c instead of apply 23:19:45 lnostdal thx 23:20:21 m-v-c can do things apply cannot (or at least not easily or nicely) do, stassats 23:20:47 your example doesn't show this 23:21:20 you'll have to trust me? 23:21:22 heh .. 23:21:41 no! i demand more examples 23:22:22 hehe 23:22:40 in your example i wouldn't use m-v-c or apply at all, i'd just write two make-instance's, it'd be faster and cleaner 23:23:24 of course 23:24:51 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@130.83.156.186] has left #lisp 23:25:03 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:25:24 Did open source MCL (as distinct from OpenMCL aka CCL) ever appear? 23:25:35 yes 23:25:47 s0ber [i=pie@118-160-168-237.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:12 which lisp implementations with that support MOP are most common? clisp, sbcl, ... 23:26:28 sbcl, ccl 23:26:59 -!- ment [i=thement@ibawizard.net] has quit ["->"] 23:27:20 thx 23:28:12 common here 23:29:03 made a package to pickle (like python) objects, want to know what implementations it can support 23:29:27 minion: tell pluijzer about closer-mop 23:29:46 pluijzer: look at closer-mop: Closer to MOP is a compatibility layer that rectifies many of the absent or incorrect MOP features as detected by MOP Feature Tests. http://www.cliki.net/closer-mop 23:31:12 ah good thx 23:31:35 *lnostdal* huh .. didn't know values could be used to denote return type like this; (defun sum (x y) (declare (values fixnum &optional)) (+ x y)) 23:32:02 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 23:32:02 hmmm 23:32:12 stassats: The only version I can find is a .dmg file, which I have no way to even open. 23:32:27 I mean, one of the requirements of open-source software is that the source is actually open. 23:32:44 well, get a mac! 23:32:58 I don't want running code, I want source. 23:33:34 what for? 23:34:38 jcowan: http://discontinuity.info/~pkhuong/MCL-5.2.tar.bz2 23:34:43 improve your google-fu 23:35:41 mbishop_ [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #lisp 23:35:44 Ah, thanks. 23:36:00 Trying to mount the .dmg file was getting me nowhere. 23:36:36 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:37:48 i'm still interested in what are going to do with it 23:38:15 I don't know yet. The point of browsing things is to see what interest they may have. 23:38:40 Sorry, I'm cranky today because I'm losing 87% of packets between me and my mail server, and I get that way when I can't read and send my mail. 23:38:49 (The problem is evidently at their end) 23:40:53 htk_ [n=htk___@188.3.228.146] has joined #lisp 23:40:53 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 23:42:23 clim isn't included, bummer 23:42:23 Invalid index 0: must be between 0 and -1. 23:43:28 -!- pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:46:41 pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:47:26 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 23:47:31 good night 23:50:47 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:52:15 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 23:53:41 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 23:53:52 -!- mbishop_ [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:54:21 mbishop_ [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #lisp 23:55:20 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-67.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 23:57:01 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:04 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.192.253] has quit [] 23:57:05 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:57:08 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai