00:00:44 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:05:29 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1C777.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:11:45 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p3138-ipngn1401marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:13:04 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:15:25 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:16:09 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:16:58 morganb [n=user@76.109.10.14] has joined #lisp 00:18:48 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit ["MacOSX wants to reboot. Damn!"] 00:25:01 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:25:39 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-74.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 00:26:37 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:26:43 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-25-185.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:28:49 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:25 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B3E99.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:38 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-74.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 00:34:27 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 00:35:30 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Client Quit] 00:37:20 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-27-8.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:37:26 -!- fiveop_ [n=fiveop@g229168023.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 00:39:12 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 00:39:43 WarWeasle [n=brad@98.220.168.14] has joined #lisp 00:39:53 Anyone have time for some array questions? 00:39:58 -!- Adamant_ [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 00:40:15 just ask it 00:40:30 no one has time for meta-questions 00:41:22 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 00:41:59 I'm trying to create an array which may be of type uint, int, or float. I want to get this information back without wrapping the array in a class. How do I do that? Also, is there a push and pop for n-dimensional arrays. 00:42:07 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-99-143.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:42:38 WarWeasle: array-element-type 00:42:48 WarWeasle: no push or pop for multidimensional arrays 00:42:51 Returns T no matter. 00:42:58 clhs a-u-e-t 00:42:59 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for a-u-e-t. 00:43:14 WarWeasle: then there is no specialized representation for the type you chose. 00:43:18 clhs u-a-e-t 00:43:18 UPGRADED-ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_upgr_1.htm 00:45:46 Ok, then I guess I have to make a new class to hold it, unless you someone has a better idea? 00:46:00 to hold what? 00:46:18 GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:14 array of type T can hold anything 00:47:51 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 00:47:53 I need floats, integers, and uints. Bits would be nice. 00:48:18 as stassats` said, array of type T can hold all of those (and more!) 00:49:02 I want to make it into a cffi array and pass it to opengl. 00:49:07 pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 00:49:33 (mapcar (lambda (type) (subtypep type 'number)) '(float integer unsigned-byte bit)) => (T T T T) 00:49:36 you will have to get more specific with your types. 00:49:50 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-210-201.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 00:50:18 and pretty sure (upgraded-array-element-type 'number) => T 00:50:52 Is there a better container than arrays in lisp for this? 00:51:18 do you want numbers of all these various types in one array, or separate arrays for the separate types? 00:51:53 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-74.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:52:35 piso: Separate arrays with different types. Each array has a static type across it, although I would like to resize it. 00:52:53 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:53:03 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 00:53:12 piso: Resize the array, such as push/pop. 00:53:30 make-array describes how to do all of that. 00:53:43 clhs make-array 00:53:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm 00:54:12 *Xach* promises http://xach.com/tmp/warweasle.gif is the last for today 00:54:47 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-25-185.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:55:23 Zhivago: Is an array like the arrays in C? Where it's a continuous block of memory? If not, then I should just use a list, right? 00:55:45 As far as you are concerned, it is. Why do you care? 00:55:46 Xach: LOL!!! 00:56:13 if you're considering a list, it sounds like what you really want is a vector 00:56:18 WarWeasle: i am writing a lisp program that makes those. always good to have test material. 00:56:51 (do you really need a multi-dimensional array?) 00:57:03 with a vector, you get push and pop 00:57:07 Well, C doesn't have them, so ... 00:57:10 piso: No, it's just a nicity. One less thing I need to keep track of. 00:57:38 Zhivago: Well, I have to convert it before sending it to OpenGL as a VBO/PBO/FBO etc... 00:57:50 and why do you care so much about types while you don't understand them? 00:57:57 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 00:58:03 War: Well, you're going to have to convert it anyhow, unless you're using an OpenGL which understands CL arrays ... 00:58:25 Zhivago: True...unless I do it all in the CFFI? 00:58:46 Then either you convert or you don't use CL arrays. 00:59:36 Zhivago: Ok. That works then. I was hoping to modify my code to be like vecto, rather than translate. :( Sorry Dr. Vecto. 00:59:48 I'd generally suggest conversion and then caching in object lists. 01:01:51 Zhivago: But I like your suggestion about writing a lisp that understands OpenGL types. 01:01:59 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 01:02:08 Zhivago: :) 01:02:19 Actually, I suggested the converse. 01:02:39 You might be interested in a lisp GLX implementation. 01:03:18 doesn't cl-opengl deal with this nicely? 01:03:39 I hope so. 01:05:03 stassats`: Chances are, I'm not useing cl-opengl correctly. I've created my own buffer objects with all the type information and then handle them as VBOs. 01:06:04 WarWeasle -> Super-newb 01:09:46 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:10:00 cl-opengl has with-gl-array 01:12:15 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:12:31 stassats`: It even has with-gl-mapped-buffer!!! 01:12:52 Well, I said I was a newb. 01:12:55 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.173.40] has joined #lisp 01:13:10 Is there someone that knows how to use them? 01:14:39 well, you create an array with opengl:with-gl-array, access it with glaref 01:14:56 i don't know about opengl side, i'm just looking at the exported symbols 01:15:46 Oh, I want to use the arrays as vertex buffer objects. I think I know how, but now I think I should ask someone familar with the subject before wasting more time. 01:16:08 But I'm more of a "hey ya'll, watch this" programmer. 01:16:27 (if my emacs session dies, you know what happened...) 01:18:55 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:19:39 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:19:56 -!- hadronzoo [n=user@ppp-70-251-121-9.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:26:41 jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 01:28:28 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 01:28:32 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit ["leaving"] 01:29:40 -!- vsync___ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:31:13 Still here...but i just can't seem to move my vecto data into my buffer... 01:31:25 :P I'll keep trying... 01:35:49 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:39:54 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@98.220.168.14] has left #lisp 01:39:55 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:40:34 hadronzoo [n=user@gateway.publicvpn.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:56 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-168-78-251.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:44:52 vsync___ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 01:45:59 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:47:20 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:53:27 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:54:04 -!- hadronzoo [n=user@gateway.publicvpn.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:55:17 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.173.40] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 01:55:52 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:58:52 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.182.237] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:01:19 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:18 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 02:05:20 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:05:28 -!- morganb [n=user@76.109.10.14] has quit ["bye"] 02:05:32 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B3E99.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:05:58 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:06:21 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:51 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 02:08:58 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:10:17 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 02:10:22 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 02:11:04 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:13:03 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:00 hadronzoo [n=user@gateway.publicvpn.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:36 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:22:16 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:11 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 02:26:19 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:26:25 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:31:51 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:52 -!- Bootvis [i=bob@baltar.lan.endoria.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:33:42 Bootvis [i=bob@baltar.lan.endoria.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:46 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-218-212.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:57 Anyone have any CL code for talking Twitter API? 02:34:05 Beyond raw Drakma. 02:34:22 minion: cl-twitter? 02:34:23 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``cl-twitter''. 02:35:10 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-209-146.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 02:36:05 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-201.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:36:07 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 02:36:51 there are two cl-twitter and one cl-twit 02:37:02 clearly, lispers do not have imagination 02:37:32 Thanks. 02:37:50 Any word on which is better? 02:38:12 gigamonkey, I am reading (studying) your book right now. So, I guess I'm one of your students. 02:38:12 lat, memo from beach: McCLIM works well with Unicode if you use the mcclim-truetype extension. Then you can do things like this: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/app.png 02:38:38 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:39:15 -!- vsync___ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:39:17 vsync___ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 02:39:20 *gigamonkey* hits lat with a stick 02:39:28 (Sorry, I was feeling martial artisty.) 02:39:38 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:52 How is going for you? 02:39:54 good teacher! 02:40:00 minion, great! That is good news. Thanks for the memo. 02:40:01 no, it's not 02:40:15 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:47 haha, minion talking back is always funny 02:42:02 *gigamonkey* does the Lispy thing and ignores the exsiting libraries and starts writing his own. 02:43:35 gigamonkey, its going pretty good actually. I still have a lot to learn, but I'm writing some useful code. 02:43:40 gigamonkey: shouldn't you hit with a Lisp manual? :D 02:43:49 gko [n=gko@114-137-82-190.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:05 with a chine nual 02:46:09 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:48:01 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:50:26 *gigamonkey* actually has a chinenual 02:50:57 have you read it? 02:51:00 No. 02:51:14 I think I looked some stuff up in it when I was working on PCL. 02:51:58 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:54:41 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-vzuydlgsglpzlqtn] has joined #lisp 02:56:35 lat pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85498 02:56:47 In the above paste, how can I avoid getting this error: The bounding indices 6 and NIL are bad for a sequence of length 0. 02:58:09 -!- hadronzoo [n=user@gateway.publicvpn.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:58:50 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 02:58:51 lat: Make sure there at least 6 elements in the (whitespace-free) line before skipping them. 03:00:11 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@2001:6f8:10f6:200:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:02:36 pkhuong, am I skipping lines? 03:03:04 no, you're skipping the first 6 elements in the line. 03:05:36 pkhuong, :) I misread your post. I'll check the data. 03:08:18 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:00 pkhuong, there was a line with one character at the beginning of the file. Taking that out solved the problem. I should have believed the debugger. Thanks for the help! 03:19:35 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:54 morganb [n=user@76.109.10.14] has joined #lisp 03:20:18 -!- morganb [n=user@76.109.10.14] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:22:40 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:13 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:29:28 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:29:49 Next problem: how can I convert a file which contains one string of words separated with spaces into a file containing a sequence of these words? Later I want to be able to feed these words into another program one at a time. Or do I even need to convert the file to do this? 03:33:33 you don't need to convert the file 03:34:46 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:35:34 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:48 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:06 -!- GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:37:49 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 03:38:06 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 03:40:44 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has left #lisp 03:40:49 antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:25 GreatPatham [n=dan@c-24-19-169-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:47 Hmm, what's an efficient functional data-structure to do what tries do? 03:42:25 Zhivago: Tries? 03:42:43 Xach, what form of read must I use to get the words? 03:43:10 Updating a normal trie requires significant construction if you want to do it functionally. 03:43:27 Narrower radix. 03:43:49 lat: you have to do some of the work yourself. 03:43:56 I was hoping that there was something a bit cleverer than that. 03:44:18 Why must it be functional? 03:44:55 Mainly because I want to update them like a stack -- pushing and popping keys. 03:44:58 lat: one option is to make a string stream, and open your file. read characters from the file. if a character is not a space, write it to the string stream. if it is a space, use get-output-stream-string to get the current word. 03:45:15 Zhivago: that's a perfect task for shallow binding. 03:45:20 lat: you can hide that behind a more convenient interface 03:45:37 The keys are lists. 03:45:50 -!- jao [n=jao@147.Red-83-42-209.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:46:06 Shallow binding on the trie's nodes. 03:46:39 Ah, I see what you mean. 03:46:51 That might be a reasonable approach. 03:49:09 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:49:09 Popping is O(1), pushing has constant overhead over a straight insertion, since you only perform a single update/insertion at most. 03:50:01 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:26 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:36 Xach, thanks. I'll study a little more about streams. 03:57:11 Xach, did I ever tell you they're going with your subtitle for Coders at Work? 03:59:03 which is? 03:59:45 "Reflections on the Craft of Programming" 03:59:51 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:00:43 gigamonkey: I like that. (Ordered (pre)) it today 04:01:05 wgl: excellent. 04:02:31 Seems to be an excellent feat to interview all. For example, how did you manage to chat with Knuth when he doesn't have email? 04:02:56 wgl: you're somewhere on here http://www.gigamonkeys.com/caw-sales-ranks.png ;-) 04:03:04 (Assuming you used Amazon.) 04:03:16 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:03:18 wgl: do you have a phone? 04:03:21 wgl: I used this ancient technology called "a letter". 04:03:30 oh, a letter? 04:03:35 awesome. 04:03:37 Cool 04:03:38 Of course I had to learn enough TeX to typeset my letter in it. 04:03:47 I'll show my kids. 04:05:37 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C70A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:05:42 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C70A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:17 luis: I seem to have several. 04:07:32 luis: Why do you ask? 04:07:33 wgl: nevermind, I was just being obnoxious. Sorry about that. 04:08:38 luis: Ah. I would imagine he doesn't take many phone calls. (enough phones to be totally annoyed, particularly the blackberry which is one of the more annoying things known to man) 04:08:39 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:14 gigamonkey, A letter? What is that? You must be a dinosaur . 04:09:47 He does use the phone, sometimes, to call back. It's a bit unnerving to pick up the phone and say "Hello" and hear, "Hello, this is Don Knuth." 04:10:06 Yikes. 04:11:06 So my ignoring existing twitter libraries worked out well: I can know figure out how many unique users have seen any tweet matching a given search. 04:11:11 s/know/now/ 04:13:34 Is there any way to comment out a section of code without putting a ; 04:13:53 Yes. 04:14:02 (list 0 #| i am a comment |# 1 2) 04:14:20 lat: plus #+(or) in front of any sexp you want to axe. 04:15:20 lat: you can use #+(or) or follow the cool kids' lead and use #+#:ignore 04:15:42 Or just use #+nil and be sane. 04:15:59 afaik Knuth actually responds to e-mail, but he doesn't keep a "personal" mailbox nor reads it directly. I heard something about digests screened by someone else and delivered as paper letters :D 04:16:12 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 04:16:12 Zhivago: I'm surprised at you. I thought you were more pedantic than that. Turn in your badge! 04:16:47 p_l: well, on his website I'm pretty sure he says, "send me a letter" if you want to get in touch. 04:16:52 Zhivago: yeah, who are you and what did you do with Zhivago? 04:17:08 And even at that, those are screened by a secretary and non-urgent ones handled (so he says) in batches, every few months. 04:17:44 His secretary does collect stuff sent to taocp@cs.stanford.edu but that's just supposed to be about his books. 04:17:53 right, that one. 04:18:15 I've always preferred legibility and simplicity over stupidity. 04:18:19 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 04:18:35 Yes, #+nil has a potential problem if someone sticks a symbol called nil into *features* 04:18:44 zing. 04:18:47 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest36245 04:18:59 gigamonkey: and unless you are Frederica Bernkastel, you can't hope to get answers through that e-mail address (sorry, obscure joke I couldn't help myself xD) 04:19:09 But since no-one does that, and the alternatives are about as attractive as deep frying your head while wearing a silly hat ... 04:19:18 gigamonkey:I had read that, and so I was asking based on how hard it might be to get ahold of him. 04:19:24 the .NET Implementation of Lisp is begging to be written though 04:20:12 wgl: I was worried my letter was going to go into the advertised "buffer storage area" and hang out for a few months but I got a pretty prompt reply. 04:20:30 That's ok -- they'll call it clobster or something. 04:20:32 Zhivago: #+#:ignore is not *that* bad. 04:20:57 gigamonkey: Good that he responded. Can't wait to read it. 04:22:04 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:27:09 -!- vsync___ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:29:23 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:29:34 Thanks for all the responses (which I have copied to my howto file). 04:37:34 -!- beach`` is now known as beach 04:37:51 Good morning. 04:38:30 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-218-212.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:38:36 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-218-212.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:03 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:21 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:39:32 Good morning, beach , minion gave me your memo concerning McClim. Thanks. 04:39:42 alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:35 Morning, beach. 04:41:46 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-181.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 04:42:42 vsync___ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 04:44:44 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 04:45:42 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:50:36 lat: Yes, I saw that! And minion also gave you an interesting reply as usual. I like that bot^W electronically composed er thing. 04:50:41 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 04:51:44 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 04:51:53 girzel [n=user@61.51.239.137] has joined #lisp 04:51:55 cmo-0 [n=user@dxb-as47475.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #lisp 04:53:45 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.173.40] has joined #lisp 04:53:53 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 04:54:40 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit ["leaving"] 04:54:49 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 04:56:01 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:01:02 *kpreid* puts in his vote for #+(or) 05:01:13 -!- Guest36245 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 05:05:59 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:06:56 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.173.40] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:07:06 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:46 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:09:24 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:09:38 gko` [n=gko@114-137-86-130.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:28 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:13:33 |Trickster| [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has joined #lisp 05:15:17 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit ["I'll be back"] 05:15:52 -!- gko [n=gko@114-137-82-190.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:16:41 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:46 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:17:47 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 05:21:54 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:22:05 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-127-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:59 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-218-212.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:23:22 logBot7102 [n=logBot@59.92.205.239] has joined #lisp 05:24:08 gko [n=gko@114-137-86-130.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:53 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:28:23 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:32:59 -!- logBot7102 [n=logBot@59.92.205.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:33:20 logBot8941 [n=logBot@59.92.205.239] has joined #lisp 05:35:01 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:40:36 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 05:41:24 -!- gko` [n=gko@114-137-86-130.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:44:47 #+#:ignore is nice for its self-documenting properties: you can name the reason for excluding code 05:47:38 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:50:50 babyboy808 [n=babyboy8@84-203-38-179.mysmart.ie] has joined #lisp 05:51:08 Hi guys 05:51:18 hello babyboy808 05:51:32 quick silly question 05:51:51 Quadrescence [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #lisp 05:52:04 amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 05:53:23 I have been doing some php programming for quite awhile now and have always been interested in Lisp, don't know why, but I am going to be getitng some books later this week to teach myself, what book would you recommened first and what areas are Lisp most used? 05:53:41 minion: tell babyboy808 about pcl-book 05:53:42 babyboy808: have a look at pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 05:54:39 what areas interest you? 05:54:46 thanks minion, appreciate it 05:55:35 -!- logBot8941 [n=logBot@59.92.205.239] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:55:50 lnostdal: basically I would like to learn a new way of programming and thinking 05:56:06 babyboy808: You came to the right place! 05:56:11 ok, lisp has that :) 05:56:53 what is Lisp most used for? real worl applications? 05:57:00 *world 05:57:14 babyboy808: It's a general-purpose language, so it can be used for anything. 05:57:27 (or nearly so) 06:02:16 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 06:05:31 hadronzoo [n=user@70.251.121.9] has joined #lisp 06:06:08 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:10:31 banisterfiend_ [n=little_b@203-211-75-58.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:13:31 lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 06:20:51 babyboy808: What are you planning to use Lisp for? 06:21:52 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:21:58 -!- babyboy808 [n=babyboy8@84-203-38-179.mysmart.ie] has left #lisp 06:22:15 I guess I scared him away! :( 06:23:36 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:26:22 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:28:37 -!- banisterfiend [n=little_b@203-211-71-100.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:30:11 pizdets [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:32 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 06:30:45 hello 06:30:54 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:30:58 hello mrSpec 06:31:00 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.73.151] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:31:13 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.73.151] has joined #lisp 06:32:09 -!- banisterfiend_ [n=little_b@203-211-75-58.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 06:32:36 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit ["]"] 06:36:19 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.73.151] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:36:33 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.73.151] has joined #lisp 06:41:52 HG` [n=wells@85.8.72.122] has joined #lisp 06:42:40 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 06:43:20 ASau [n=user@host76-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:46:54 jd8hh57 [n=mickey@talula.plus.com] has joined #lisp 06:47:22 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:53:23 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1C4F.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:54:56 -!- azanar [n=azanar@dsl231-050-107.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:56:00 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:03:20 -!- daniel [n=daniel@p5082BD69.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:03:24 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:07:44 aja [n=aja@68.151.58.116] has joined #lisp 07:08:27 -!- ASau [n=user@host76-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:08:36 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:09:04 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.76] has joined #lisp 07:09:35 Soulman [n=kvirc@80.202.254.154] has joined #lisp 07:09:46 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:13:11 -!- girzel [n=user@61.51.239.137] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:13:28 girzel [n=user@61.51.239.137] has joined #lisp 07:14:38 good morning 07:17:41 prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:25 morning 07:19:08 What is the easiest way to read a whole text file into memory, converting it into a list of strings (the words), so I can use delete-duplicates and sort on the list? 07:19:12 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 07:19:41 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:19:45 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 07:22:16 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 07:22:28 alexandria has read-file-into-string, cl-ppcre can split the string into a list of strings (words) 07:22:55 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 07:23:55 lnostdal, are you referring to packages? 07:23:58 string-trim might be suitable for removing punctuation etc., though i guess cl-ppcre could deal with that in one go as you look for words 07:24:07 yeah, lat 07:24:39 ok, many thanks! 07:25:08 I have to go. Later. 07:28:39 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-1-244.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:29:13 aerique [i=euqirea@194.109.21.3] has joined #lisp 07:30:39 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.76] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:30:51 ASau [n=user@host76-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:31:22 Dodek [n=opera@87-205-250-217.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 07:31:31 -!- Dodek [n=opera@wikipedia/Dodek] has left #lisp 07:33:31 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:12 Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 07:39:50 bytecolor [n=user@32.158.156.219] has joined #lisp 07:40:55 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:41:51 I've read a bit about silencing style-warnings in sblc 1.0.25, but I cant get it to work. Something like #+sbcl (declaim (sb-ext:muffle-conditions warning) 07:44:19 bytecolor: If you use Slime, they should be less annoying. I think, you want (proclaim '(sb-ext:muffle-conditions sb-kernel:redefinition-warning)) in your .sbclrc 07:44:23 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:44:41 with a reasonably recent sbcl 07:45:25 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-2-24.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:49:46 -!- aja [n=aja@68.151.58.116] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 07:49:46 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-144-173.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:51:24 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 07:53:20 serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-182-153.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:53:48 fgtech [n=federico@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 07:55:19 hrm... 07:56:14 actually I'm using an app that embeds maxima, which is currently using sblc, the startup banner shows eight style warnings ;) 08:00:19 anyone here prefer a specific testing framework? i'm using a shellscript atm to pull sql and just diff against a known good source, but i'm open to more "lispy" ideas 08:03:03 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:04:04 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-168-78-251.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:05:40 thatdavidmiller [n=david@87-194-167-91.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:06:02 Demosthenes: http://aperiodic.net/phil/archives/Geekery/notes-on-lisp-testing-frameworks.html 08:06:58 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:07:44 bytecolo` [n=user@32.155.98.167] has joined #lisp 08:08:51 -!- bytecolo` [n=user@32.155.98.167] has left #lisp 08:09:09 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 08:09:13 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 08:09:51 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229227237.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:10:13 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:10:17 hello 08:14:56 -!- girzel [n=user@61.51.239.137] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:15:14 girzel [n=user@61.51.239.137] has joined #lisp 08:19:44 lichtblau: thanks! 08:20:34 snafuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 08:20:43 -!- snafuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:21:24 snafuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:24 -!- bytecolor [n=user@32.158.156.219] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:24:01 wbraun [n=chatzill@hueckel.itc.uni-tuebingen.de] has joined #lisp 08:25:19 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has quit ["Caught sigterm, terminating..."] 08:25:19 -!- snafuchs is now known as antifuchs 08:26:23 logBot8465 [n=logBot@59.96.207.80] has joined #lisp 08:38:39 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 08:40:36 -!- ASau [n=user@host76-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:40:47 ASau [n=user@host76-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 08:41:27 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:50:09 harblcat [n=chris@c-68-54-116-153.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:24 -!- gko [n=gko@114-137-86-130.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:56:26 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-168-78-251.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:56:36 -!- antifuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has quit ["ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"] 08:56:48 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 08:57:17 antifuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 08:58:26 -!- antifuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:58:31 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.173.40] has joined #lisp 08:59:06 antifuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:30 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-vzuydlgsglpzlqtn] has left #lisp 09:02:22 -!- antifuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:03:02 antifuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 09:05:17 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ntgsrboxvziiftsh] has joined #lisp 09:05:30 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@89-180-141-125.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 09:07:53 -!- logBot8465 [n=logBot@59.96.207.80] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:08:00 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:08:04 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:11:52 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:13:26 -!- harblcat [n=chris@c-68-54-116-153.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 09:15:58 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:19:55 ment [i=thement@ibawizard.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:27 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:24:49 elias` [n=c@cs78208074.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:24:49 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:25:01 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:26:09 arnuld [n=arnuld@unaffiliated/arnuld] has joined #lisp 09:26:42 its been 5 eyars since I used Common Lisp last time. 09:26:57 Since then I am working on C and C++ 09:27:10 I hae almost forgotten all of what Iearned 09:27:23 I want to start learning Common Lisp again 09:27:27 any guidance ? 09:27:43 I am programming in C and C++ from some years now 09:27:48 no more of a beginner 09:27:52 minion: please tell arnuld about pcl-book 09:27:52 arnuld: please look at pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 09:27:52 at programming 09:27:54 -!- wbraun [n=chatzill@hueckel.itc.uni-tuebingen.de] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.2/20090729211829]"] 09:28:15 hey.. thats what exactly I used in 2005 09:28:35 It's just as good today, but if you want a few more books... 09:28:44 minion: paip for arnuld 09:28:45 arnuld: direct your attention towards paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/paip 09:29:06 teach yourself programming in 10 years.. 09:29:12 how can I forget Peter Norvig 09:29:16 heh yep. 09:29:24 abd the HperSpec of course 09:29:27 Don't be fooled by the title. That is a CL book, not an AI book. 09:29:27 and* 09:29:59 In July of 2005, I was told the same by someone on comp.lang.lisp 09:29:59 Yeah, the spec is always a good reference to have. If you use SLIME for your IDE, you can download the spec and have SLIME browse it for you while you code. 09:30:12 Oh... 09:30:23 did not know that SLIME property 09:30:27 thanks :) 09:30:30 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 09:33:09 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32CF4C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:33:10 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [] 09:33:17 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:34:42 Adlai: actually, it's a multi-purpose book 09:34:45 I have to go now. Welcome back to Lisp arnuld :) 09:35:02 it has CL tutorial, compiler writing, and AI + support elements 09:35:17 true. Anyways, I'm hungry. 09:38:51 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 09:41:43 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:45:41 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2748.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:48:32 -!- pizdets [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:49:35 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.18.173.40] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:50:47 -!- girzel [n=user@61.51.239.137] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:52:31 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:52:47 manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C03A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:36 KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 09:55:22 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 09:59:15 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:01:40 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:06:32 -!- arnuld [n=arnuld@unaffiliated/arnuld] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:06:50 arnuld [n=arnuld@121.243.141.79] has joined #lisp 10:06:51 Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483B2CD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:14 -!- arnuld [n=arnuld@121.243.141.79] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:07:56 arnuld [n=arnuld@121.243.141.79] has joined #lisp 10:09:42 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C70A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:15:41 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 10:16:59 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:17:25 good morning 10:17:38 hmm, afternoon, actually 10:17:40 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-78-106.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:20:59 hello (again) mvilleneuve 10:22:18 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:23:13 -!- jd8hh57 [n=mickey@talula.plus.com] has left #lisp 10:23:31 mvilleneuve: morning 10:23:40 p_l: afternoon 10:24:05 " In July of 2005, I was told the same by someone on comp.lang.lisp" see why I told him differently this time on cll? 10:24:05 morning UTC :> 10:24:15 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:24:46 matimago: ???? 10:25:08 arnuld: obviously you were expecting a different answer. 10:25:10 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:25:49 actually, I am amazed at the way Lisp is designed, used or even what it is 10:26:21 I have used 2 powerful langauges C and C++ and have seen others using Python and Ruby over that time 10:26:30 but they all look same 10:26:35 Lisp is ... different 10:26:56 arnuld: if they all look similar, you may have to learn them a bit more ;) 10:27:31 kooll: C-family (or should I call them Algol-descendants?) are so similar it's not funny :P 10:27:40 kooll: I mean, they don't give me a feeling of "something I can;t explain" 10:28:21 (some of those do introduce enough features to stop being "just a rehash", but those features often aren't obvious) 10:29:24 p_l: well, at least in python and ruby, functions can return functions, and in ruby you can pass blocks of code around 10:29:43 not exactly 'c-like', is it ? 10:29:57 kooll: passing functions in C is quite common 10:30:41 if you embed a code generator, you can even make them on-the-fly 10:30:42 redefining classes at runtime,then. That's uncommon in C(obviously) and C++ 10:30:54 besiria [n=user@195.251.214.184] has joined #lisp 10:31:18 and then here comes the MOP which I have seen only in Lisp 10:31:21 sure. and if you embed a powerful code preprocessor with your generator... you are one step closer to create another lisp :) 10:31:35 Well, obviously, ANSI C doesn't define classes at all. C++ unofficially was created for the sole purpose of being at the same time sellable and utterly uncomprehensible 10:31:50 arnuld: You haven't searched enough! http://www.csg.is.titech.ac.jp/~chiba/opencxx/html/base.html 10:31:51 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 10:31:52 as for code generator, modifying TCC should be enough 10:31:54 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32CF4C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:32:32 arnuld: top: http://www.csg.is.titech.ac.jp/~chiba/openc++.html 10:32:49 matimago: Open C++ is a development environment from Nokia for the S60 platform 10:33:10 kooll: actually, ECL provides examples of on-the-fly creation of C functions etc. in their fasl system :) 10:33:27 arnuld: have a look at the provided url! 10:33:58 mathrick: it says *only* for g++ 2.xx :\ 10:33:59 -!- arnuld [n=arnuld@121.243.141.79] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:34:28 arnuld [n=arnuld@121.243.141.79] has joined #lisp 10:34:40 -!- ineiros_ [n=ineiros@pc217.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:34:46 matimago: it says *only* for g++ 2.xx :\ 10:35:19 Well, obviously, ANSI C doesn't define classes at all. C++ unofficially was created for the sole purpose of being at the same time sellable and utterly uncomprehensible <-- and it succeeded beautifully 10:35:44 The problem with C is that there is no portable way to tag objects without their cooperation. 10:35:53 define "tag"? 10:35:53 mathrick: I gave up C++ after negation operator told me "fuck yourself" 10:35:57 as in type-tag? 10:36:02 This largely precludes retrofitting a MOP. 10:36:09 someone a long time ago told me: C++ will rot your brain 10:36:11 As in class-tag. 10:36:38 today I think either he was right or I am a poor programmer 10:36:43 The only way to implement class-of in C is to essentially keep a map of pointers to classes, and then you get other problems. 10:37:12 p_l: I gave up after working with CrystalSpace and hitting one of the "yeah, y'see, to fix that you should've modelled your class hierarchy differently, in a way that's not the default endorsed one, about 10 years ago" issues that endear C++ to me so 10:37:44 elias` [n=c@cs78208074.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:37:44 arnuld: he was right 10:37:48 I think that the fundamental difference is between 'prescriptive' and 'descriptive' classes. 10:38:04 C++ is the programming equivalent of the Night Of The Living Dead 10:38:27 mathrick: so rot is right or I am poor yet ? 10:38:35 mathrick: Oh.. I got it 10:38:35 rot 10:38:45 arnuld: the later is consequence of the former. 10:38:49 :D 10:38:54 We've told you to skip C++... 10:38:59 did u ? 10:39:02 Yep. 10:39:06 Check the logs! 10:39:08 Eh.. in 2005 ? 10:39:12 0r 6 10:39:44 sellout [n=greg@adsl-dyn-25.95-102-33.t-com.sk] has joined #lisp 10:40:02 OMG... it was you ... 10:40:39 c++ , if it does not kill you, it makes you stronger :P 10:40:53 i guess, it killed my brian then 10:40:57 if not me 10:41:14 with modern design approaches, c++ becomes bearable. 10:41:15 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:20 still, the syntax is absolutely horrendous 10:41:25 I think many times same about C but C taught me many +ve things too 10:41:28 dv_: except the second options has chances of miracle, or near-impossible macroscale quantum effects :P 10:41:35 dv_: with modern design approaches, assembler becomes bearable too. 10:41:59 dv_: the difference is that the macro system in assembler is generaly saner than templates in C++. 10:42:02 alexbobp_ [n=alex@adsl-75-34-100-218.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:14 matimago, I meant with modern c++ stuff that focuses on generic programming and eschews raw pointers etc. 10:42:17 arnuld: the way to recover is not impossible though! there was a time when i was doing template metaprogramming and i've thought that it's something cool... but that time is over, so not all hope is gone! 10:42:32 still, I would prefer it to have a proper metaprogramming syntax, 10:42:39 instead of the insanity that is around atm 10:42:48 dv_: given the right macros and library, you can write generic high level code in assembler too. 10:42:53 and internet helps a lot in recovering -- i wish i had internet when i first started coding at 12 10:43:14 matimago, indeed. it is always a cost-benefit question 10:43:41 -!- hdurer [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-ujlslpqfblazwxzi] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:44:04 jao [n=jao@147.Red-83-42-209.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:09 dv_: for a technical man I think its rot-kill question 10:44:24 attila_lendvai: but internet also bears 4chan, so it's a double-edged sword on your quest to sanity 10:44:30 but to be honest, the only reason I use c++ is because the job demands it 10:44:44 -!- arnuld [n=arnuld@121.243.141.79] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:44:51 and because when it comes to the requirements, it is the least of all evils 10:44:59 someone has an unstable connection 10:45:14 dv_: really? What can be worse than C++? 10:45:25 arnuld [n=arnuld@121.243.141.79] has joined #lisp 10:45:25 dv_: s/the job/the boss/ 10:45:26 java 10:45:31 *attila_lendvai* goes to see what 4chan is 10:45:32 dv_: I too got a job that pays me few hundred dollars 10:45:33 dto [n=user@cpe-24-31-141-95.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:45:39 dv_: all coz pf C++ and Linux 10:45:43 attila_lendvai: NO!! DON'T GO! 10:45:45 attila_lendvai: DON'T SAY I HAVEN'T WARNED YOU 10:45:50 heh :) 10:46:04 attila_lendvai: or at least, stay the fuck away from /b/ (aka "random") 10:46:35 dv_: but these days I am working on C and I think I will decide on never to touch C++ again but to use C for low level programming and Lisp for everything else 10:46:43 dv_: I find it hard to decide whether Java or C++ is the worse evil 10:46:43 I even came across BitC 10:46:46 /prog/ is however full of "have you read your SICP today" trolls :> 10:46:49 mathrick, for me its easy 10:47:00 java shoehorns everything into its rather primitive OOP 10:47:03 do you at least generate your C++ from Lisp? 10:47:07 and has next to no interesting and useful language features 10:47:29 dv_: that's true, but that should make it fairly easy to generate (not that I tried) 10:47:33 Oh, I think java is pretty well designed ... for other people to use. 10:47:36 at least c++ is multi-paradigmatic and allows for generic programming 10:47:36 my ex-colleague earts 4 times of me coz of Java 10:47:41 earns* 10:47:49 and honestly, the only way to stay sane in C++ is to keep away from the "interesting" features 10:47:58 :D 10:48:04 Zhivago: yeah! Java is good enough, for others! :-) 10:48:07 mathrick, well, would you use lisp without being able to use lambda? 10:48:16 +like to 10:48:16 I recommend the google style-guide for C++. 10:48:18 but that money never attracte dme towards Java. 10:48:18 arnuld: are you saying that Java programmers are so scarce and in such a high demand? 10:48:35 or, say, first class functions 10:48:36 mathrick: in some circles. 10:48:39 I think that he's saying that he is unemployable. 10:48:54 dv_: yes, that's retarded in Java, but C++ counters it all with its creeping insanity 10:48:55 mathrick: no, actually, company hired him coz of Java but putto work on Tcl-Tk thingy 10:49:07 Possibly because he doesn't speak English. 10:49:23 mathrick: he forgot half of his Java now 10:49:27 dv_: it's like asking me to choose between being stuck in a hollywood romantic comedy vs. a C-class zombie horror 10:49:41 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 10:49:43 I will take romance 10:49:52 so that's Java 10:50:01 at least I will get to kiss some girls ;) 10:50:05 mathrick, does lisp have some sort of pattern matching? I am not very skilled in lisp 10:50:14 in a way, yes 10:50:15 especially if its 40 year old virgin 10:50:22 say, some expression like "x(5, 1) = 4 + a(17);" 10:50:32 and it searches for suitable patterns for x(5, 1) etc. 10:50:33 there are destructuring lambda lists, and DESTRUCTURING-BIND 10:50:42 and then there are pattern matching and unification libraries 10:50:58 because this is what generic programming in c++ essentially boils down to 10:51:27 it separates code from the types, and hijacks several c++ mechanisms to have some pattern matching 10:51:35 dv_: http://www.cliki.net/cl-unification 10:51:44 ok, seems like i'm immune to 4chan. there are some nice nude pictures, but otherwise just a random forum with random layout and random people... maybe i should listen and not read more into the text... :) 10:51:53 and since I like generic programming, any language that can support it gets a cookie from me 10:51:54 :) 10:51:55 http://www.cliki.net/pattern%20matching 10:52:00 attila_lendvai: you are lucky. Believe me 10:52:16 dv_: We have better code generation tools. 10:52:26 attila_lendvai: it is random. But if you stay on /b/, you will find out your limits 10:52:29 and this is one reason why I dislike java, generic coding is only possible on a primitive level, and this makes code much less reusable 10:52:56 pkhuong, well yeah, I guess it would be more lisp like to generate a typed code out of a type-less template 10:54:56 dv_: generic programming implies a non-optional, covering-everything type system (right?), which is wrong already... 10:55:08 no 10:55:19 generic code looks a lot like pseudo cdoe 10:55:20 code 10:55:42 maybe i'm wrongly associating to generics in java then 10:56:00 dont 10:56:09 generics in java are very limited and not suitable for this 10:56:13 but in that sense all programming is generic, or at least tries to be (and usually fails badly) 10:56:16 in fact, they are a hack :) 10:56:23 -!- alexbobp [n=alex@adsl-75-42-225-23.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:56:36 If you're referring to type erasure, then I suggest that you call them a 'backward compatibalism'. 10:56:40 attila_lendvai, to quote wikipedia: "Generic programming is a style of computer programming in which algorithms are written in terms of to-be-specified-later types that are then instantiated when needed for specific types provided as parameters." 10:57:04 Zhivago, yeah that was the reason for it 10:57:43 Here's the thing, if you need code generation, macros are much more powerful. If you want policies and type-independent reuse of algorithms, first class functions and dynamic typing make those trivial. 10:58:13 djkthx_ [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 10:58:14 hmm yes 10:58:16 jd8hh57 [n=mickey@host217-34-51-26.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 10:59:01 heh, that's kinda BS... :) that is programming, without any prefix. unless you use the wrong tools and you need to escape their prisons... types should always be optional, and the tools (compiler) should be flexible enough to have delimited type checking, specialization based on _optional_ type information, etc... 10:59:01 however some things in lisp bother me. at least from what I know. 10:59:13 like, (+ a b) 10:59:36 + only exists for some types, and cannot be a generic expression. I guess macros take care of this though, right? 10:59:51 No, you need packages. 10:59:56 attila_lendvai: optional type _specification_ don't mean the type _system_ can be optional 10:59:58 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:00:03 And other code needs to agree to use those packages. 11:00:03 *doesn't 11:00:14 CL has quite a weak level of support for genericity. 11:00:24 yeah, histerical raisins 11:00:27 Zhivago, well in generic code the types must fulfill certain requirements 11:00:36 mathrick: i'm talking about the type system as optional. for nothing else than because there's no one single type system that fits all problems... 11:00:40 in c++ they are called concepts, but its just a sort of structural typing 11:00:41 dv: That's not an issue here. 11:00:48 Spaija [n=user@nat/cisco/x-ccveqbghadcatzuc] has joined #lisp 11:00:52 dv: The problem is that cl:+ is not extensible in a portable fashion. 11:00:54 oh, then what do you mean with "agree"? 11:00:57 ah I see. 11:01:10 Zhivago: I thought C++ was much extensible 11:01:21 C++ is more extensible than CL in these regards. 11:01:26 Zhivago: see how the Generic programming was added lately 11:01:39 attila_lendvai: but that's not the case in CL 11:01:45 *attila_lendvai* gets some food instead... (these things should be done instead of being talked about) 11:01:45 dv_: In C++ the only way to learn that a template's arguments are wrong is a instanciation failure. 11:01:46 our type system is far from optional 11:01:59 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 11:01:59 mathrick: i don't believe CL has a bright future, so... :) 11:02:04 What CL does is to support you writing your own language over the top. 11:02:10 dv_: concepts were dropped from C++0x 11:02:12 C++ doesn't support that. 11:02:30 On the other hand, C++ does support reasonable extension of the base language. 11:02:42 c++ templates in CL seem to be useful for type declarations' sake 11:02:53 mathrick, as a language feature 11:02:59 they exist already as documentation 11:03:07 dv_: Instead of overloading operators, you can pass a (generic) function. 11:03:09 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 11:03:13 -!- arnuld [n=arnuld@121.243.141.79] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:03:33 weirdo: huh? 11:03:57 Zhivago, well somebody wrote a DSEL using templates 11:04:01 for writing other DSELs 11:04:36 Templates aren't C++, per se. 11:04:59 templates form a metalanguage, which originated casually 11:05:19 dv_: you mean EDSL? 11:05:40 domain specific embedded language 11:05:54 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:06:12 mathrick, if fixnums are passed as an argument, compiling the whole function as supporting fixnums; otherwise compiling as integers 11:06:22 i actually wrote some code to do that 11:06:47 dv_: People have written EDSLs with m4 before cfront was even dreamed of. m4 is still madness. 11:06:48 weirdo: Sounds like you mean 'partial evaluation' or 'specialization'. 11:07:49 weirdo: but what does it have to do with C++ templates? 11:07:57 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:08:01 mathrick, i presume that's how c++ templates work 11:08:44 pretty much, yeah. But they're a weird, weak, type-only version of macros, really 11:09:12 dv_: link to that edsl writing thingy? I have an unhealthy dose of curiosity for abominations people come up with in C++ 11:09:36 mathrick, http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_39_0/doc/html/proto.html 11:09:56 mathrick, it essentially is a DSEL compiler written in the template metalanguage that outputs expression templates 11:10:00 dv_, you can shadow + http://paste.lisp.org/display/85511 11:10:07 ..dumb example i guess, but still 11:12:35 though, having a thing like + "always be a method" in a language where type information generally isn't available (sbcl is quite good at inferring types though..) is maybe not such a good idea for something as low-level as + 11:13:08 fgtech [n=federico@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:13:31 for cases where sbcl's type inferring is very good it might not be a problem at all though, with a couple of compiler macros for compile-time dispatch or something .. i don't know 11:14:19 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 11:14:22 morning 11:14:29 c|mell [n=cmell@y192020.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:14:30 benny [n=benny@i577A1BB1.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:14:33 hey 11:15:04 sbcl's type inference is good if *derive-type* is enabled or proper FTYPE declarations are present 11:16:20 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:17:34 hm, nice .. you mean sb-ext:*derive-function-types* ..? .. so that thing is good for cases where one will not redefine functions later then? 11:17:52 -!- dto [n=user@cpe-24-31-141-95.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:18:38 attila_lendvai: what does "Kérem javítsa a megjelölt hibákat és próbálja újra a mveletet" mean? 11:18:48 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-64-6.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:54 Reav___ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 11:19:19 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 11:19:30 hello splittist 11:20:02 lnostdal, yeah 11:20:29 sbcl has a lot of "hidden" cool stuff .. :) 11:21:47 attila_lendvai: and there is another error message "Nem megfelel adat" 11:22:07 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 11:24:02 arnuld [n=arnuld@121.243.141.79] has joined #lisp 11:25:12 -!- arnuld [n=arnuld@121.243.141.79] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 11:25:17 weirdo: does that lead to better performance, or only better compile-time warnings? 11:25:28 arnuld [n=arnuld@121.243.141.79] has joined #lisp 11:28:29 madnificent: supposed to be performance, but disallows safe redefining later on 11:30:08 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:21 there is so much potential in all this stuff, is it not? .. sbcl could easily beat c++ and java etc. performance for more interesting or complicated things than just tight-loop benchmarking with all this information being thrown around behind the scenes .. i'm ranting :} 11:30:21 hiya dlowe 11:30:35 *dlowe* eyes mathrick warily. 11:30:39 hi, mathrick 11:30:52 nah, nothing I want from you, just greeting :) 11:31:14 just my guilty conscience 11:31:19 -!- Spaija [n=user@nat/cisco/x-ccveqbghadcatzuc] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:31:20 lnostdal: low-level sbcl doesn't seem to be that fast. So there's probably some work that should be done on it to get the most out of it 11:31:26 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-8-251.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:32:57 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32CF4C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:33:00 madnificent, yeah, but i mean if "done proper" it might scale all the way up to "higher level things" than just number crunching .. this is probably old news to people already working with compilers etc. but i find it a bit fascinating or interesting 11:33:19 "yes" :P 11:33:45 ..in java and c++, even if done proper at the lower level .. you'd still have to repeat the same stuff (add type information etc.) over and over again as you move to higher levels 11:34:00 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ntgsrboxvziiftsh] has left #lisp 11:34:19 ..but in lisp or with this type inferring stuff that'd just propagate upwards; low level work benefits higher level stuff too .. heh :P 11:34:51 *madnificent* wonders about automatically splitting code-sections into execution threads + lisp.... sounds very hard 11:35:25 lnostdal, the high level part is untrue in c++ 11:35:50 oh well you do need expressions that yield types yes 11:35:54 but not the actual types hardcoded 11:35:54 madnificent: the hard part is deciding what to split 11:36:15 still, c++0x introduces type deduction with the "auto" keyword for a reason... 11:36:30 dv_, template meta programming and stuff like it is still too much work imho 11:36:33 ok, yeah 11:36:36 blitz_ [n=blitz@2001:6f8:10f6:200:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has joined #lisp 11:36:49 lnostdal, it is painful, yes 11:37:04 well, emacs 23 sure is a good time to clean up 10 - 15 years of cruft in my config files and to chose a new font 11:37:05 lnostdal, libraries like boost help with it though 11:40:26 mh, "help" 11:40:28 heh x) 11:40:59 oh well I dont want to touch c++ without boost nowadays :] 11:41:42 stassats`: I was somewhat thinking about the haskell approach 11:43:03 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:44:19 lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:44:50 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:46:54 pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:54:07 I'm having a problem defining methods on print-object 11:54:33 what problem? 11:54:44 I'm trying to make conses with a certain structure print differently. On CCL, they print according to my method, but on SBCL, they print normally. 11:55:05 I checked (sb-mop:generic-function-methods #'print-object) and the method seems to be there. 11:55:58 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:56:59 Not sure that's standard compliant code 11:57:42 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["leaving"] 11:58:12 pkhuong: hm, you mean the spec says you shouldn't specialize print-method on builtin classes? 12:00:29 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2748.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:00:31 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@y192020.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:01:44 (set-pprint-dispatch 'cons (lambda (x b) (print "hello"))) 12:02:09 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-117.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:02:50 sellout- [n=greg@adsl-dyn86.78-99-6.t-com.sk] has joined #lisp 12:03:58 cracki [n=cracki@43-080.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:04:46 stassats`: nice catch there, I'll try it out. 12:05:31 although I guess I'd also have to setf *print-pretty* t, for that to work, right? 12:05:41 right 12:06:15 clhs 22.1.2 12:06:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ab.htm 12:08:03 kami-: first: please fix the marked errors and try again the operation. second: wrong data 12:08:10 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:42 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:09:51 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:10:07 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:37 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-218-212.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:37 stassats`: interesting, the spec seems ambiguous as to what arguments the pprint dispatch function should take! 12:12:45 (I'm guessing two -- object and stream) 12:13:39 octe [n=octe@78.129.202.55] has joined #lisp 12:13:45 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:58 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2748.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:01 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 12:16:46 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-160-173-189.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:19:51 stream and object 12:20:11 -!- sellout [n=greg@adsl-dyn-25.95-102-33.t-com.sk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:21:12 i don't know how ambiguous this is: "The function must accept two arguments: the stream to which output is sent and the object to be printed." 12:22:52 ah, there it is. I was looking at the page about the dispatch table itself. 12:22:55 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@2001:6f8:10f6:200:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:23:16 hm, it's a bit obnoxious that the args are in the reverse order of the args to print-object. 12:24:28 anyways, thanks stassats`. This works. 12:24:48 there's no standard order. compare princ to format 12:24:57 It's actually better this way too, because I can choose between nice output and raw output. 12:25:41 or compare NTH and ELT 12:25:41 dlowe: yeah, true. There's also the behavior of NIL and T as streams in different functions. 12:25:47 Common Lisp is a mess 12:25:53 \o/ 12:26:03 It keeps us on our toes! 12:26:19 and builds character. 12:27:37 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:28:37 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 12:29:08 I prefer the term 'syncretic abomination'. 12:30:20 alright, thanks for the help and laughs. Back later. 12:31:47 attila_lendvai: thanks (I was away) 12:35:19 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:36:41 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:36:44 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 12:37:07 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:39:56 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.192.253] has joined #lisp 12:41:09 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 12:49:15 coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has joined #lisp 12:49:54 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:51:55 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 12:53:13 dto [n=user@cpe-24-31-141-95.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:54:21 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:55:29 attila_lendvai: is there a simple way of pre-filling a drop-down menu (choice) in a custom object filter? The generic UI makes the user click on 'Search', find a matching instance, and select it, which is tedious for some tasks. 12:55:42 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:56:51 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 12:56:51 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32CF4C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:20 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:58:47 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-137-240.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:14 -!- besiria [n=user@195.251.214.184] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:07:41 blandest [n=user@79.112.99.101] has joined #lisp 13:08:33 yvdriess [n=Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 13:09:00 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:10:25 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 13:11:00 I'm getting a strange error: I have an asdf system that depends on another component "dqlisp", I can asdf:load-op dqlisp 13:11:10 but when I do it for the former I get http://paste.lisp.org/display/85514 13:12:41 kami-: you mean when you are filtering based on an association? that is planned... you just need to be careful, you don't want to do that with an association with hundreds of elements 13:12:59 -!- hdurer_ [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-b883f150da830fd3] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:14:48 yvdriess: what implementation is that? 13:14:57 lispworks 13:15:00 but I think I figured it ot 13:15:11 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:23 ok 13:15:31 something went horribly, horribly wrong and I've overwritten the .lisp file with the .asd contents 13:15:39 I hope I made a recent svn commit 13:17:09 attila_lendvai: yes, based on association, I want to give the user not the full choice of a standard-object-filter, but to have a drop-down box which allows for 3 selections which make sense in that particular context. 13:18:03 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.182.237] has joined #lisp 13:18:07 konr_ [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 13:18:20 jewel_ [n=jewel@41.242.163.86] has joined #lisp 13:19:20 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:19:42 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 13:20:44 kami-: with customizations it's certainly possible 13:21:41 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #lisp 13:22:09 -!- delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:22:32 is #'slime-next-connection suppose to be defined in recent versions of slime ? I can only find it in the ChangeLog file, but not in the source code 13:23:42 konr__ [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 13:23:45 -!- arnuld [n=arnuld@121.243.141.79] has left #lisp 13:25:20 -!- Reav___ [n=Reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:27:19 attila_lendvai: is there an example in the code base? 13:27:49 attila_lendvai: or can you give me a hint what to search for? 13:28:56 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:31:48 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 13:32:17 Man. CVS is teh suck. 13:32:29 I had forgotten. 13:32:32 Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@95.84.4.190] has joined #lisp 13:33:11 gigamonkey: yeah, but at least it's harder to lose everything with an incautious 'git rebase' in the middle of a different rebase 13:33:11 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2748.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:33:29 (by "lose" there understand "not quite lose but have to start digging around blob reference chains") 13:34:13 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:34:33 yo gigamonkey 13:34:57 i am pleased you used my subtitle. will it appear on the final cover? 13:35:33 -!- konr_ [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:35:42 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:36:08 Krystof: by lose you were talking about your sanity? :) 13:37:22 Yo Xach, it should. 13:37:29 I'm still waiting to see the final cover. 13:37:40 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@41.242.163.86] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:38:06 Though this time around Ehud Lamm of Lambda the Ultimate is going to get the cover blurb, it looks like. 13:38:54 as long as my photo on the back cover, compared to yours, is of equal or greater size, i am fine with that. 13:39:44 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:40:07 back in the 90s i actually got, as a technical reviewer, my photo in the acknowledgements of a really great book about GIMP. i really liked going to bookstores with friends, pulling it off the shelf, and saying "hey, look! what a coincidence!" 13:40:08 Xach, highly efficient co-author of many books 13:40:42 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 13:40:47 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:40:50 jewel_ [n=jewel@41.242.163.86] has joined #lisp 13:40:51 ahem 13:41:56 is it a different subtitle, this time? :) 13:44:43 'Conversations with programmers neither dead nor sexy'? 13:44:48 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 13:46:02 lol 13:47:07 -!- yvdriess [n=Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:47:55 Hey, Ken Thompson has a very nice beard! Some people might find that sexy. 13:48:14 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 13:48:44 *p_l* ponders growing a unix beard one day 13:48:55 gigamonkey: I didn't think 'conventionally physically sexy' would fit (: 13:49:08 -!- pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:49:14 OTOH, perhaps there's a centerfold! 13:49:42 it's just knuth's sorting networks :( 13:49:46 'They don't call him Mr Steele for nothing...' 13:49:51 *splittist* stops 13:50:02 rotfl 13:50:08 rread [n=rread@adsl-75-45-184-58.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:52 -!- rread [n=rread@adsl-75-45-184-58.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:51:05 rread [n=rread@adsl-75-45-184-58.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:57 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 13:52:04 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 13:53:54 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:19 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.192.253] has quit [] 13:55:14 is a macro in another package executed in that package or the current one when called? 13:55:52 *wgl* snicker 13:55:55 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 13:56:19 Demosthenes: Code is not executed in packages. 13:56:19 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Operation timed out] 13:56:35 its a legit question. i don't recall reading that anywhere, but i moved a macro over to another package and now nothing works... 13:56:45 ok, but there are typically namespace issues. 13:56:51 Demosthenes: Packages serve only at read time when sequences of characters are used to create symbols. 13:56:52 -!- Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@95.84.4.190] has left #lisp 13:58:10 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.192.253] has joined #lisp 13:58:58 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 13:59:22 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:59:53 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-103-15.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:01:52 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@41.242.163.86] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:02:06 Demosthenes: A package plays the role of a namespace, yes, but it doesn't do so at code execution time. Perhaps you could tell us in which way things stopped working when you moved the macro definition? 14:02:44 -!- konr__ [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:02:51 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B2748.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:42 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:04:14 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-114.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:04:38 i'm investigating that now... 14:04:52 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32CF4C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:56 at first i thought it was because i replaced an argument with a object accessor, that wasn't the case. 14:05:21 its a macro to read a file until it encounters a regexp, and it should leave the file at that point when it returns. 14:05:44 when i put it in an external package and call it by its full name, it loops on line 1, while if it is local it works fine 14:06:06 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:15 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:06:26 I would very much like to comment on the code, if you share it at http://paste.lisp.org/ 14:06:33 Demosthenes: you may need to ... 14:06:36 what Xach said. 14:06:51 wasabi_____ [n=wasabi@nttkyo434120.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:07:05 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 14:08:07 -!- carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:08:20 carrl [n=carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has joined #lisp 14:08:35 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.192.253] has quit [] 14:08:54 http://paste.lisp.org/+1TZI 14:10:57 works fine in the same file. 14:11:05 Demosthenes: LINE is the problem 14:11:10 i put it in a misc utility library i include via asdf 14:11:30 Demosthenes: export it if you want it to be the same variable 14:11:30 Demosthenes: you may want to take the "line" variable name as a parameter 14:11:30 Demosthenes: UTILS::LINE is not the same as MYGREATAPP::LINE 14:11:30 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.212.29] has joined #lisp 14:11:30 -!- alexbobp_ is now known as alexbobp 14:11:32 then again, i just noticed that lib is all defuns, no macros 14:11:50 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 14:11:50 mvilleneuve's advice is good 14:12:04 I'm not sure I see why this needs to be a macro. 14:12:18 it was the collect line portion 14:12:20 Ah, the loop directives. 14:12:21 not everything needed it 14:12:55 and its not always collect, i wanted to leave it freeform to allow other loop directives 14:13:06 Demosthenes: (defmacro scan-file-until-regexp ((line-var stream regexp) &rest loop-directives) ... 14:13:19 One rule of thumb is macro calls should often not look like they could be function calls. 14:13:46 mvilleneuve: i don't expect line returned, nor do i supply a line variable. why is that needed? 14:14:04 Demosthenes: Listen to Xach. 14:14:44 Demosthenes: you do supply a line variable. 14:14:48 ok, i guess i was just thinking i'm passing a code snippet... 14:14:57 "(scan-file-until-regexp stream regexp collect line)" 14:15:03 Demosthenes: so that you can give that variable any name you want - and in your case it also eliminates the package-related issue 14:15:04 Demosthenes: If the macro definition and the call are located in different packages, then you have two variables named "line". 14:15:06 <-- right there 14:15:10 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:15:41 scottmaccal1 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 14:15:49 Bah, this wasn't announced: http://paste.lisp.org/+1TZI#1. 14:16:25 Xach did not provide http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp . 14:16:27 Demosthenes: Xach should have given you this URL (for future reference) http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp 14:16:36 That way the pastes (and annotations) will be announced here. 14:17:09 ah 14:17:44 *ponder* well quoting it isn't the answer. given that i don't want to refer to a local line, the "line" should be the one in the for loop of the macro, how would i do that? 14:19:24 Xach: I still don't understand why it would loop though. 14:19:41 Xach: It seems to me that the wrong line would be collected instead. 14:19:58 Handcrafted [n=henrik@0x573bbf5a.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.ronqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:20:11 beach: I'm inclined to fix the obvious mistakes first, even if they don't directly relate to the described symptoms. 14:20:37 Xach: Sure. I just thought I had missed something. 14:20:49 Demosthenes: mvilleneuve's suggestion will work 14:20:52 Demosthenes: mine also 14:21:54 *ponder* thats counterintuitive to me. 14:21:56 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-78-106.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 14:22:00 by the same logic, isn't collect a variable? 14:22:10 Demosthenes: LOOP looks only at the symbol names, not their identity. 14:22:19 i'm just trying to pass generic loop directives through cleanly 14:22:22 you could use :collect if you felt like it. 14:22:26 LINE is not a loop directive. 14:22:56 line doesn't exist in my program either, its just in the macro's for loop 14:23:17 Demosthenes: you put (... collect line) in your program. 14:23:20 it could be collect it, i'm take the return from the loop 14:23:32 Demosthenes: is that part of your program, or no? 14:23:54 that was the idea of the macro, i kept doing the same read operation across files but with different loop directives (count, collect, etc) 14:24:19 Demosthenes: do you see how that makes "line" part of your program? 14:24:23 so the goal was that internally the loop used "line", and that the generic code i passed would affect that. 14:24:24 Demosthenes: You are not listening. You claim you don't use LINE in your program, but you *do* when you put it as argument to the macro. 14:25:06 beach: i get that part, kind of. ;] i'm still learning. i don't have a local variable called line, if i'm making one it wasn't the intent. 14:25:30 i was trying to send code to the macro that would be interpreted by loop as being the same line. 14:25:31 Demosthenes: why do you think you don't have a local variable called line? 14:25:39 Demosthenes: The other symbol LINE (the one in tha call) was created at read time, when the call was read. 14:26:00 'cause i'm a perl hacker and thats just english. i get a bareword must be a symbol in lisp, and now i see how that could affect the operation. 14:26:23 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:28 so my quandry is how do i package up the arguments to the macro so that it interprets only local line. 14:26:41 *Xach* gets tired of repeating himself, gives up 14:27:38 Demosthenes: Again, by making line-var a parameter to the macro and then using ,line-var instead of line in the loop. 14:27:42 obviously i'm not communicating it well, the disconnect is on my side. 14:28:01 Demosthenes: what i suggested and what mvilleneuve suggested will solve the problem. (repeat #3) 14:28:10 Demosthenes: Then you are sure it will always be the symbol that was used in the call. 14:28:17 *ponder* 14:28:30 i'll go tinker with it ;] 14:28:44 pjb is vindicated for his keyword loop keywords 14:28:46 I have a quick question about macros: Isn't it possible to make a macro that turns (2 + 2) into (+ 2 2)? (A little like Haskell) 14:29:15 Handcrafted: Does Haskell have macros? I didn't know that. 14:29:29 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:30:06 beach: No Haskell don't, but in Haskell any function that takes two arguments can either be like "func arg1 arg2" or "arg1 func arg2" 14:30:30 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has joined #lisp 14:30:41 Handcrafted: If you want infix, you should probably not be using Lisp, or you can use the infix reader macro (not standard). 14:31:03 http://www.cliki.net/infix is the reader macro 14:31:16 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:31:58 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 14:32:11 Demosthenes: look at how things like dotimes and dolist work. You pass them a variable. 14:32:12 okay, thanks (It's not that prefix notation is a problem) 14:33:49 Handcrafted: But to answer your question directly, it is not possible to have an ordinary macro do that, because the name of the macro has to be the first symbol of the form, and 2 cannot be the name of a macro. 14:34:14 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:34:37 ShadowChild [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 14:34:43 Handcrafted: It would have to be something like (infix-to-prefix (2 + 2)) 14:34:48 pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:35:29 Handcrafted: you could also write your own REPL which would behave that way. 14:35:52 ie, (loop (print (eval `(nfx ,(read))))) 14:35:55 beach: No no, I didn't think of it in that way. An macro that could handle infix notation was just what I was asking if it was possible to make 14:36:46 Handcrafted: A macro can handle infix notation as an argument, but inside the macro, you would have to do the parsing yourself. 14:37:27 *Adlai* settles down meanwhile to recode that print-object -> set-pprint-dispatch stuff. 14:42:12 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Operation timed out] 14:42:59 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-103-15.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:43:10 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-121-243.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:45:18 I'm giving a talk about ASDF, and there's one thing I've forgotten --- how do people make ASDF work with Windows? Windows doesn't have normal symlinks, does it? 14:45:18 rpg, memo from fusss: "Hey, I found enough of what I needed online to implement RBAC for CLOS objects. So far it's still application-level; the underlying database tables have no security, other than the RDBM's user account, which all database access uses. I found an Apache project Continuum which had jdoPermission Interface, and a good C++ example http://hissa.nist.gov/rbac/rbacot/titlewkshp.html" 14:46:44 rpg: change the system search function 14:47:19 well, add one 14:47:40 rpg: I guess they could put every directory with an asdf file on the central registry. 14:47:44 Xach: I find more and more we just fill the central-registry with a large number of directory pathnames, rather than using symlinks; I suppose that would work, too. 14:47:55 beach: two minds with but a single... 14:48:59 rpg: indeed 14:49:30 -!- ASau [n=user@host76-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 14:51:58 google seems to reveal that lichtblau had a patch that worked with windows shortcuts... 14:52:44 Why can't Windows have symlinks? Is it a problem with FAT32/NTFS/whatever? 14:54:10 Adlai: I don't actually know the answer to that question, since I am blissfully windows-free these days. All I know is that a windows shortcut is not a symlink. 14:54:23 rpg: I tend to use some version of Edi's search function - just put all your asdf libraries under a common root and search from there for .asds to add to the registry on startup. 14:54:28 mbishop_ [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #lisp 14:55:03 splittist: I do, too. I have written a micro-find that does that kind of search. Actually, I pull together different contexts for different projects. 14:55:45 rpg: vista has symlinks 14:56:04 But if I have a novice group that wants to learn how to use ASDF, I can't really tell them "change the system search function." 14:56:14 ironChicken [n=richard@158.223.51.84] has joined #lisp 14:56:32 Adlai: Vista has mklink 14:56:33 I guess I just tell them to avoid the link farm approach. 14:56:55 rpg: yes you can 14:57:05 just give them a good search function for windows 14:57:07 blandest: heh, I guess it's the one thing that Vista got right... 14:57:30 fe[nl]ix: If there is such a function, shouldn't we just put it in the ASDF distribution? 14:57:32 rpg: IIRC, pjb has a good one somewhere 14:57:56 rpg: probably yes 15:01:00 attila_lendvai: I'm trying to edit the value of a slot of type float and for no obvious reason, I always get those errors mentioned earlier (first: please fix the marked errors and try again the operation. second: wrong data) 15:01:17 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-zlnuatmvlcmuisyn] has joined #lisp 15:04:10 I just found lichtblau's patch. I will suggest it to the ASDF-devel list. 15:04:46 kami-: no idea, sorry 15:04:58 One more question for windows asdf-ers --- it looks to my non-windowsy eyes that the shell-command function in ASDF requires cygwin (because it uses SH, not CMD.EXE); is that correct? 15:05:05 *attila_lendvai* is going offline now to clear his notebook 15:05:06 -!- HG` [n=wells@85.8.72.122] has quit [Client Quit] 15:05:36 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 15:05:46 HG` [n=HG@85.8.72.122] has joined #lisp 15:05:54 rpg: or mingsys (sp?) 15:06:04 foxeh [n=Fox@24.233.166.198] has joined #lisp 15:06:32 s/mingsys/MSYS/ 15:08:01 gigamonkey pasted "How I deal with ASDF" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85522 15:08:15 rpg: that paste is for you. 15:08:15 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:08:28 splittist: isn't this problematic? I don't know msys, but in the olden days, it seemed like cygwin could have a pretty radically different view of the directory tree from the windows shell's... 15:08:36 gigamonkey: Thanks! I'll look now... 15:09:00 gigamonkey annotated #85522 "Then I have this is ~/.asdf" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85522#1 15:09:39 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.22] has joined #lisp 15:10:00 That second file get's loaded in my .sbclrc or whatever. 15:10:11 gigamonkey: Are the optional .asdf files holders for helper functions? 15:10:35 minion: thwap gigamonkey 15:10:36 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 15:10:36 No, they just create a hierarchy. 15:10:40 minion: thwap for gigamonkey 15:10:41 gigamonkey: direct your attention towards thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 15:11:03 hm, I think thwap should me a minion command. 15:11:10 gigamonkey: Am I correct in reading this as an instance of the "put a bunch of directories in the central-registry instead of using a link farm" tactic? 15:11:12 i may have asked about this before, but does anyone here know who posted this comment: http://xach.livejournal.com/162386.html?thread=328274#t328274 15:11:21 rpg: You can REGISTER a directory containing .asd files or another .asdf file. 15:11:32 rpg: yes. 15:11:49 ironChicken: that guy is a pretty famous blogger. You've never heard of him? 15:11:53 I've gotten to doing that myself, not for windows, but because I work on multiple projects concurrently. 15:12:17 Right. 15:12:26 ironChicken: doesn't look familiar to me 15:12:36 -!- cracki [n=cracki@43-080.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 15:12:42 My work flow is something like this: (1) start lisp; (2) execute a function to tell lisp what project I'm working on --- mostly by populating the central-registry appropriately from svn working directories. 15:12:47 So in my system, rather than a single ~/.asdf you could have project1.asdf and project2.asdf 15:12:57 which each register the appropriate directories. 15:13:07 gigamonkey: right. 15:13:31 -!- prg [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:13:33 *rpg* will consider just removing the whole link farm idea from ASDF talk... 15:13:38 And the nice thing is if you can have sub .asdfs that register a bunch of related directories. 15:13:49 *Xach* is not a linkfarm fan 15:14:01 Unfortunately, the linkfarm idea is baked pretty deeply into ASDF-INSTALL. 15:14:15 gigamonkey annotated #85522 "And this is ~/lisp/monkeylib/.asdf" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85522#2 15:14:15 *Xach* is not an ASDF-INSTALL fan 15:14:27 rpg: shells on Windows - yes, trying to pretend Windows is a 'nix is generally a recipe for pain (in my case) 15:14:53 I got really excited about writing an alternative to asdf-install, and even registered some domain names (a critical step, for sure), but they're about to expire in 30 days and I don't think I'll renew. 15:14:55 *gigamonkey* is also an anti-fan of linkfarms and ASDF-INSTALL 15:15:02 splittist: I wish I had something better to say to my audience than "If you're on windows, you can expect this to be somewhat difficult." 15:15:17 rpg: where is this talk gonna be? 15:15:25 Adlai: tomorrow evening. 15:15:32 Xach: ah well, thanks. 15:15:33 http://tclispers.org/ 15:15:59 I would like ASDF-INSTALL a lot better if it provided a good solution for detecting and applying version updates. I find this very problematic right now. 15:16:00 *Adlai* can't help but imagine a CL implemented in TCL whenever he sees "tclispers" 15:16:09 whoever it was might be listening. maybe if i mention SEASR they might notice 15:16:16 fgtech [n=federico@79.0.203.170] has joined #lisp 15:16:22 -!- fgtech [n=federico@79.0.203.170] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:16:38 fgtech [n=federico@79.0.203.170] has joined #lisp 15:16:51 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 15:17:21 -!- rread [n=rread@adsl-75-45-184-58.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:17:28 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 15:17:40 rpg: FWIW, I came up with my system partly for use in Lispbox which had to support Windows. 15:17:54 And also because I hated the symlinks approach. 15:18:35 gigamonkey: speaking of Lispbox -- I've not given up, I just haven't had access to the windows box lately. 15:19:02 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@194.109.21.3] has quit ["..."] 15:19:09 but I did patch up about half of the makefiles to work again and with uptodate stuff. 15:19:47 (though CCL was the only implementation I worked on so far) 15:20:55 -!- hadronzoo [n=user@70.251.121.9] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:21:33 How much more superior is SLIME compared to say, standard Vim (with screen) 15:21:45 Handcrafted: 'a lot'. 15:22:11 Handcrafted: the integration is very nice. there is an active discussion between the editor and the lisp system to help you write. 15:22:14 Handcrafted: you can't compare SLIME and Vim, they're two different things. One is a text editor while the other is an IDE. 15:22:32 I would really like a good tool for developing with Lisp, but I just can't get used to Emacs 15:22:39 try cusp on eclipse 15:22:43 As for Vim and Emacs -- Vim might be better for editing lots of text, but Emacs has better support for editing source code. 15:22:50 Handcrafted: you could use Viper-mode in emacs 15:23:06 foxeh: Explain? 15:23:10 foxeh: vim afficionados seem uniformly derisive about viper. :) 15:23:14 Hmmm. Vim is better for editing lots of text? Maybe I should write my next book in Vim. 15:23:34 Fade: I got the sense that Cusp wasn't being actively developed. Not so? 15:23:44 Well, vim is pretty good at editing multi-gigabyte files ... 15:23:50 interestingly, the SEASR project blog describes the existence of a lisp extension in a post of the day preceding the comment on Xach's blog: http://seasr.org/blog/2008/02/28/making-progress-seasr-at-the-andrew-w-mellon-research-in-information-technology-retreat/ 15:23:53 Don't know if you're that ambitious. 15:24:05 I like vim and use slime.vim. It is not the same as the real slime but it works for me. 15:24:07 Handcrafted: Viper-mode is an emacs mode to sort of emulate how vim acts 15:24:17 foxeh: Oh wow 15:24:28 Unfortinately it doesn't really make emacs any less annoying. 15:24:33 gigamonkey: It's probably better at typesetting than MSWord :P 15:24:44 rpg: I can't speak to it directly, but have noticed that it seems to have been used actively over the past year by a few hands here. 15:24:58 gigamonkey pasted "Zawinski on vi emulation mode in emacs" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85526 15:25:05 -!- mbishop_ is now known as mbishop 15:25:05 and if you're actually emacs-phobic, then eclipse would probably be better than vi(m) 15:25:10 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:25:21 Zhivago: please don't make multi-gigabyte lisp source files :( :P 15:25:22 Fade: How graphical is eclipse? 15:25:28 Handcrafted: very 15:25:38 Handcrafted: excessively. 15:25:40 it's made to resemble visual studio from what I've seen. 15:25:44 Handcrafted: or wait, which eclipse? 15:25:47 fade: True, but I think VIM aficionados are uniformly derisive about emacs :) 15:25:59 madnificent: Not really interested then, I prefer text when I edit text 15:26:04 also true 15:26:10 -!- FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:26:13 madnificent: Oh, I have macros to do that for me. 15:26:50 Adlai annotated #85526 "my two cents" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85526#1 15:26:53 Emacs is written and customizable in Lisp. I have a hard time understanding why Lispers would even hesitate to love it. 15:26:55 Handcrafted: if you're used to VIm or emacs, then you won't like it. If you're used to a 'standard' setup (like visual something or netbeans) then you may just like it 15:26:56 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:27:00 there's not much getting around the simple fact that an emacs + slime is the best current way to do lisp code 15:27:12 the commercial common lisp ide's might match 15:27:24 luis: same reason that Visual Basic hackers probably aren't huge fans of TurboBasic 15:27:29 but, you know, commercial software. that use would depend on your application. :) 15:27:38 luis: because emacs takes loads of time to get used to and because people want to learn lisp when they enter the lisp scene, and not emacs (which does make it harder) 15:27:47 madnificent: Okay, thanks 15:27:56 Handcrafted: It's religion. But you wouldn't code Java in vim or emacs, right? You'd use eclipse and you'd just learn it and become proficient at it. The same is with common lisp and emacs/slime. Just add this tool to your repitoire like you would squeak, or eclipse, or borland C++ :P 15:28:00 madnificent: like http://mublag.boinkor.net/post/23193218/Sup-Dawg-Lisp-by-Xach 15:28:17 gigamonkey: see my annotation :) 15:28:21 herbieB: Good point. 15:28:43 madnificent: I don't buy that. Emacs has icons and a menu bar, etc. You can start with that with no trouble whatsoever. 15:28:48 Xach: checkmate 15:28:56 DrGNU [n=drgnu@174-146-17-0.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:04 *madnificent* has 'converted' a VB/VBA user to lisp, but gave him eclipse whilst learning it 15:29:08 *Fade* laughs at xach's linkage 15:29:42 luis: I second that. We actually use Emacs to teach industry people. They get the simple stuff done in a matter of minutes. 15:29:46 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:29:51 Xach: heh. 15:30:00 manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6DB4A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:05 luis: They are not very productive, but then they probably aren't with their usual tools either. 15:30:25 Xach: nice 15:30:58 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:31:28 -!- fgtech [n=federico@79.0.203.170] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:31:42 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6C03A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:32:11 has anyone tried limp (vim lisp ide)? http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2219 15:32:13 Xach: one suggestion though... "I HURD you like Lisp ..." 15:32:56 minion: tell jleija about nekthuth 15:32:56 jleija: direct your attention towards nekthuth: Nekthuth: Connection with a Lisp Nekthuth is the combination of a vim plugin and a common lisp library which enables vim users to start up or connect to a CL interpreter inside vim, and do interesting things with it. http://www.cliki.net/nekthuth 15:33:35 well, the vim crowd is persistent. :) 15:33:39 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has joined #lisp 15:34:22 thanks herbieB 15:35:06 although sometimes it seems like it's all just chasing emacs trying not to be inferior. >:D 15:36:13 *jleija* won't fall for that ... oops, I just did :) 15:36:25 *Fade* chuckles 15:37:13 Fade: vim is different than emacs. To try and conflate the two insults them both. 15:37:34 -!- rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:37:55 sure, but happy psuedo-topical banter on #lisp is another thing altogether. ;) 15:38:03 -!- pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:38:10 rbancroft [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:18 Ha. 15:38:38 holy monkeys. 15:39:43 real #lispers use editors written in CL. There. 15:40:18 drewc was using climacs for awhile. 15:40:27 Does anyone here use a lisp based shell? 15:40:42 herbieB: Does the CLIM listener count? 15:40:44 Let the fight between Climacs and Hemlock begin. 15:40:47 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:40:54 It's things like this that makes me fear emacs: http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2219 15:40:56 i used scsh for awhile, but it was more trouble than it was worth. 15:40:57 herbieB: I use eshell sometimes. Not sure if that counts. 15:41:02 Woops this: http://imgkk.com/i/PCerTs.png 15:41:07 luis: I didn't know there was a competition. 15:41:15 -!- Athas` is now known as Athas 15:41:51 lately i've been getting a thin lispmachine experience with stumpwm. 15:41:52 I don't know what counts? 15:42:33 beach: I'll stop being silly now. 15:42:37 *madnificent* would like to get shelisp running 15:42:49 _bigwavejake [n=w0lfpak@sas12162.nat.sas.com] has joined #lisp 15:43:04 Adlai pasted "Sup dawg, I heard you like circular structure..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85530 15:43:09 herbieB: I don't use the CLIM listener as a replacement for Bash, but I do use it as a generic CLIM application when I want to do interactive graphics and such. 15:43:27 <_bigwavejake> I'm trying to set up clisp with slime on windows. But I get the following error: Process inferior-lisp exited abnormally with code 53. 15:43:31 <_bigwavejake> any tips for fixing it? 15:43:51 Adlai: are you doing a postgraduate course on the structure and implementation of the human headache? 15:43:59 beach: ndondo. 15:44:21 _bigwavejake: First thing: try to execute the same program outside SLIME. You might get a more explicit error message then. 15:44:29 _bigwavejake: how did you set up slime in your .emacs file? (http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp might help) 15:44:34 Fade: that's the abstract of my dissertation... heh. 15:45:06 masochism shouldn't be a particularly lispy pathology, but I guess it is. 15:45:15 That's just a pretty harmless bit of circular structure, that's all :) 15:45:33 _bigwavejake pasted "emacs_slime" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85531 15:46:02 <_bigwavejake> Xach, there's my .emacs slime config 15:46:49 claar: you should learn how to display circular structures fetched from lisppaste such as http://paste.lisp.org/display/85530 15:46:49 What? 15:46:53 on a serious note -- that's what Sheeple looks like on the inside. 15:46:57 <_bigwavejake> beach, that did it! 15:47:08 <_bigwavejake> i was passing a -K full and that messed it up 15:47:21 matimago: uhoh, I tried that once, as you probably remember... :) 15:47:31 <_bigwavejake> slime is now working... thanks for the help beach and Xach 15:47:32 There is a great and intense rivalry between Climacs and Hemlock! 15:47:37 Both compete for the same user. 15:47:41 _bigwavejake: No problem. 15:47:48 Yes. I'll rewrite it soon. 15:48:07 haha 15:48:11 that is actually a pretty nasty circular structure. Are there algorithms for printing things that complicated? 15:48:21 (asks the clueless newbie) 15:48:25 I'll use graphviz dot. 15:48:38 Athas: are you anthropomorphizing? 15:48:43 scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has joined #lisp 15:49:08 Then later I might reimplement some algo in lisp to generate ascii art again. 15:49:14 claar: draw #(1 2 3) 15:49:14 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/21 15:49:29 -!- _bigwavejake [n=w0lfpak@sas12162.nat.sas.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:49:42 claar: draw (1 2 3) 15:49:42 http://claar.informatimago.com:8006/22 15:49:56 matimago: what about vectors / arrays? 15:50:08 They'll have a special form, as well as structures. 15:50:10 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 15:50:22 draw #1=(ah #1#) 15:50:34 -!- dto [n=user@cpe-24-31-141-95.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:50:38 claar: draw #1=(ah #1#) 15:50:38 nice. That paste has a bunch of vectors. 15:50:51 luis: great, you crashed claar :-( 15:50:52 lat_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 15:50:55 luis: learn to learn from my mistakes. 15:51:00 meh, still no circular structures? 15:51:10 dto [n=user@cpe-24-31-141-95.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:51:34 minion: is claar on cliki? 15:51:34 maybe 15:51:41 minion: tell me about claar! 15:51:41 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``claar''. 15:53:23 claar: help 15:53:23 draw -> draw the 15:54:43 matimago: maybe until claar can draw circularities, at least make him not crash? 15:54:51 I had a few slow week-ends, so I didn't make progress on claar as quickly as I'd want. 15:55:12 But now that I decided on graphviz dot, it should be done soon. 15:55:25 minion: what is graphviz dot? 15:55:26 maybe you need to ask my master, chandler - he knows a lot 15:55:45 Adlai: okay, what IS that circlular structure? It appears to have no leaves but NIL. 15:55:51 http://www.graphviz.org 15:55:54 Well, and #:G1209. 15:55:55 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 15:56:04 matimago: Google is my friend. 15:56:57 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:57:06 kpreid: have you heard of sheeple? 15:57:49 Now I have. 15:57:59 what is it? 15:58:16 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:58:25 -!- DrGNU [n=drgnu@174-146-17-0.pools.spcsdns.net] has left #lisp 15:59:23 sykopomp is building a prototyping object system, and recently I've been helping him too. 15:59:39 minion: tell me about sheeple 15:59:39 Fade: have a look at sheeple: Sheeple is a Dynamic, CLOS-like, Delegative Prototype-based Object-Oriented Programming Framework (or "POOP Framework") that strives to optimize application flexibility, minimize cost while increasing value, maximize programmer resources, and empower application implementers to better assist them in leveraging modern paradigms in order to proactively achieve next-generation synergy in tomorrow's web 3.0 world. http://www.cliki.n 15:59:43 bah, I'm stumped 16:00:00 "Sheep" used to be CLOS objects. Right now, we're rewriting Sheeple to be "below" CLOS. 16:00:15 I can't figure out how to have delimited reader macros without evaluating everything on the fly, as it is read 16:00:22 thus, all the questions about printing earlier today. 16:00:22 CLOS is awesome, though. 16:00:32 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:00:40 Adlai: what does "below CLOS" mean? 16:00:41 Fade: yep. That's why we're modelling everything we do after CLOS/AMOP. 16:00:58 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:01:04 mathrick: you could do data flow/control flow analysis on the reader macro code to know what you need to evaluate from what has been read up to now. 16:01:05 mathrick: it just means we're not doing (defclass standard-sheep), which is what we used to have. 16:01:14 mathrick: and recursively... 16:01:21 the cliki description does not fill me with hope, java won kenobi. 16:01:39 Fade: I think sykopomp wrote that as a joke :) 16:01:54 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:02:03 matimago: yep, but I'm trying to figure out a robust protocol to do that to avoid triggering on forms that'd be macros later on, and it's hard 16:02:53 not to mention it's actually self-contradictory, as I'd like it to trigger on forms that'd be macroexpanded and turn out actually to be real invocations 16:02:57 kinda like what ITER does 16:03:23 mathrick: or you could specify that reader macro must be packaged separately so the tools can load them independently of the rest of the sources. 16:03:23 I think I'll need to provide a form of tcr's protocol to have any hope of doing it right 16:03:25 fgtech [n=federico@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:03:32 matimago: could you elaborate? 16:04:24 mathrick: like we separate the defpackage forms in packages.lisp, the defmacro forms in macros.lisp, we should put the reader macros in a separate file, that should be stand alone, and that would have to be trusted to be loaded into the tools processing the sources. 16:04:34 -!- scottmaccal1 [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:05:11 matimago: yes, but that doesn't help with my problem, because you can't know how you should read until after you are done reading and compile 16:05:14 Then by noting the file-position before and after executing the reader macro, we can know what source text is processed by the reader macro. 16:05:20 sorta like C++ can't be parsed until it's fully compiled 16:05:41 danlei [n=user@pD9E2CC6C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:46 j emacs 16:05:55 oops! 16:05:56 mathrick: Well, yes, we cannot avoid it. 16:06:01 exactly 16:06:03 :) 16:07:17 pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:08:21 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:09:07 Getting rid of the reader would avoid much of it. 16:09:35 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:09:52 reader macros should be restricted to user level DSLs. 16:10:16 Just get rid of the reader and you don't have to restrict yourself like that. 16:10:17 Zhivago: but that means no extensions at all, which is not desirable either 16:10:23 Nonsense. 16:10:30 Lexical readtables would solve that, I think. 16:10:34 how do you proceed without the reader then? 16:10:38 s/lexical/local 16:10:41 l 16:10:43 There's no reason that you can't have extensible parsers - it's just that the reader is horrible at it. 16:10:44 mathrick: it would be hardwired. 16:10:45 Adlai: that's pretty much what I want to implement 16:10:50 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 16:10:51 but it's not easy 16:11:04 Use streams, for example. 16:11:06 the problem is with defining what "local" means before you're done reading 16:11:07 mathrick: there would have to be a certain readmacro for binding the readtable at readtime. 16:11:21 actually, could you do something with #. maybe? 16:11:25 The reader was a useful hack back in days of yore, but ... really -- what does it have going for it? 16:11:36 Adlai: well, that's no good, since it puts all the burden on the user 16:11:54 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 16:11:55 Zhivago: indeed, that's why I prefer (function x) to #'x 16:12:07 Zhivago: I'm not entirely sure I see how it'd work 16:12:09 I don't think that's a relevant preference. 16:12:11 -!- djkthx_ is now known as djkthx 16:12:22 Zhivago: I make use of one less reader macro with (function x) :-) 16:12:30 mathrick: well, the crude solution would be to write a preprocessor which would convert any code that used (with-readtable my-readtable ...) into code that used #.(setf *readtable* my-readtable) 16:12:56 *matimago* going back home. Watch me teleport into pjb! 16:13:05 Adlai: but that still puts the burden of declaring (with-readtable ...) on the user 16:13:06 Zhivago: Extensible parsers is a hard topic. You would have to handle ambiguities and you might end up with a very slow parser. 16:13:09 Zhivago: what about `,@? 16:13:13 which is exactly what I want to avoid 16:13:19 Adlai: What about it? 16:13:26 it's a readmacro. 16:13:30 adlai: I can handle that without a reader. 16:13:53 I see, you're suggesting just having a defined set of syntax for CL rather than an extensible reader. 16:14:03 adlai: Wrong. 16:14:14 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has quit [] 16:14:15 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 16:14:17 Zhivago: what are you suggesting then? 16:14:20 adlai: There's nothing about parsers that makes them inextensible or non-composable. 16:14:22 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:33 adlai: Support streams of objects. 16:14:48 adlai: Now you can replace the reader with a stream mechanism. 16:15:07 adlai: Those streams can then do whatever they like, including use composed parsers. 16:15:08 Adlai: I know a sheep fetishist who would use this system only because of the system internal names. 16:15:12 vsync____ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 16:15:16 -!- vsync___ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:15:28 Fade: eerie, so do I 16:15:57 heh. 16:16:07 that's not worrying at all. 16:16:13 adlai: For example, I have some code like or (or (parse-list stream) (parse-number stream) (parse-string stream) ...) 16:16:23 Zhivago: 16:16:28 heh. it is, however, possible evidence of a metaphor under strain. ;) 16:16:28 adlai: And that's inside its own stream, although here I use stacks rather than streams. 16:16:38 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:43 Zhivago: what do you mean by streams of objects? Standardize the way implementations serialize stuff? 16:17:00 adlai: Why would you need to have serialization to have a stream of objects? 16:17:15 adlai: You don't. 16:17:20 Zhivago: because I don't know what you mean by a stream of objects.... 16:17:47 adlai: Imagine a stream, where reading from it produced ... arbitrary objects, rather than characters. 16:17:59 Adlai: Interestingly, that was confusing to me as well until I read the CLIM spec. 16:18:03 adlai: Now imagine one for writing. 16:18:08 how are the object represented? 16:18:13 As objects. 16:18:14 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 16:18:19 Saith the CLHS: 16:18:23 stream-element-type returns a type specifier that indicates the types of objects that may be read from or written to stream. / Streams created by open have an element type restricted to integer or a subtype of type character. 16:18:34 Bugger the CLHS. 16:18:38 So consider a stream not created by open. 16:18:45 We're talking about how to escape from that little box of horrors. 16:18:51 Zhivago: but don't streams just yield bytes? 16:19:01 you have to serialize objects into bytes. 16:19:03 adlai: Not if they are streams of objects ... 16:19:10 Adlai: You're assuming this stream is attached to a filew. 16:19:24 adlai: Can you imagine a stream where where you put an object in one end and get an object out of the other end? 16:19:27 Demosthenex [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 16:19:35 No, I'm assuming it's attached to a wire, probably a bunch. 16:19:41 adlai: Perhaps the word 'queue' would help you. 16:19:45 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:19:58 Zhivago: you are doing this? 16:20:01 digestive tract ? 16:20:04 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 16:20:04 fade: Sure. 16:20:07 lol 16:20:15 fade: It's how the lisp system that I'm bootstrapping does its parsing. 16:20:26 Zhivago: so how do you get the objects inside the streams? You still have to start with files 16:20:29 fade: Today it even managed to compile itself to the point that it could compile (+ 1 2) :) 16:20:29 but Zhivago, how does the stream turn the bytes of data that it gets into objects? 16:20:40 There are no bytes. 16:20:42 mathrick: I can just bloody well create them. 16:20:51 this strikes me as a radical idea 16:21:06 Zhivago: but that's not very interesting for parsing lisp source, which is generally stored as files 16:21:07 but my lisp evolution is only at the point where I'm still delighted by the mainstream. 16:21:11 Adlai: We have with-input-from-string, think about with-input-from-arbitrary-sequence 16:21:15 doesn't the data in the streams have to come from somewhere? I don't know how a computer can get data that isn't bytes.... 16:21:27 mathrick: Ok, let me describe in more detail what I actually do. 16:21:32 please do 16:21:48 mathrick: What I have for parsing is a stack, that when exhausted will call a function to refill it. 16:21:56 ok 16:21:58 Adlai: (with-input-from-arbitrary-sequence (stream (list 1 2 3 :aardvarks "-1" (make-random-state))) ...) 16:21:59 mathrick: I say (pop stack) and I get back an object. 16:22:07 Adlai: no (visible) bytes needed. 16:22:42 mathrick: To read from a file, I then get that refill function to run some parsing code, giving it a stack which yields characters. 16:22:50 kpreid: yes, but "(list 1 2 3 :aardvarks ..." is bytes before it gets turned into a stream. 16:22:53 mathrick: So, all very simple. 16:23:18 Zhivago: ok, so there's still a parser here. 16:23:24 Adlai: ummmmm. 16:23:26 mathrick: However, you'll notice that there's no need for us to do this -- I could just shove objects into another stack which I used to refill the one I'm popping from. 16:23:31 Adlai: You put quotes there I didn't. 16:23:48 Adlai: There is a transformation function between the stack that gives me objects and something else. 16:23:49 -!- delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has left #lisp 16:23:58 kpreid: I'm talking about the bytes that get entered into the computer at some point. 16:24:00 Adlai: I have a list containing objects. Suppose I construct a stream which yields those objects one at a time. 16:24:09 adlai: But, that's an arbitrary transformation -- and we don't care about it. We just get objects out of our infinitely deep stack. 16:24:18 The bytes that get entered in are *irrelevant*. This is a stream whose both ends lie within our lisp world. 16:24:42 Yes, because I'm actually reading out of a string, since I don't have any files. 16:24:47 Again irrelevant. 16:25:06 I could then hook up another stack to read from that stack and do another transform on those objects. 16:25:11 Right. I understand the idea of that kind of stream, I just don't understand how you can get objects in to it in the first place without parsing bytes. 16:25:17 -!- foxeh [n=Fox@24.233.166.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:25:27 adlai: In the same way that I can make an array without doing that. 16:25:40 adlai: I call (make-array 10) and an array is made -- hurrah. 16:25:54 adlai: Let's imagine that instead of parsing stuff, I stuck a random number generator behind it. 16:26:03 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:26:04 Zhivago: but something has to parse the bytes "(make-array 10)" 16:26:07 adlai: Now I would have a stream of random numbers with no bytes parsed at all. 16:26:12 adlai: Why? 16:26:16 Zhivago: right, but that still doesn't help with getting rid of the reader. It doesn't matter if you call it a reader or not, the refill function still has to have a way to transform bytes from file into objects on the stack 16:26:24 how would they get into the lisp image in the first place? 16:26:25 and that's the problem 16:26:46 mathrick: The problem with the reader is that it sits outside of all of this, like a venomous toad. 16:26:56 *Fade* laughs 16:26:57 hehe 16:27:07 mathrick: Once you stick the reader inside the stack or stream or whatever, it is fine. 16:27:24 mathrick: Then you can use composing parsers, like I do, or whatever ungodly method takes your fancy. 16:27:48 Zhivago: how would that help me with deciding how far to read until I'm done expanding? 16:27:53 mathrick: With the CL reader you're stuck with it -- you can't replace it, and you can't extend it significantly without rewriting most of it. 16:28:00 Zhivago: I think I understand what you mean, but saying that you're getting rid of the reader is misleading because it sounds like you have no reader/parser at all. As I see it, you're just putting the reader in a very specific place rather than having it "sit outside ..." 16:28:02 mathrick: What? 16:28:19 Zhivago: I'm cooking up an example, sec 16:28:21 adlai: I mean, getting rid of the readtable and read and all of that nonsense. 16:28:28 i'd be happy with a non-interning reader. 16:28:32 Zhivago: right. I understand now :) 16:28:37 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:04 Now I have a lovely little parser that isn't very efficient, but is very easy to understand and extend. 16:29:20 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-zlnuatmvlcmuisyn] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:29:22 Zhivago: Are you using the Earlay algorithm? 16:29:31 This is actually a nice idea, Zhivago. and re: isn't that the definition of `Lispy'? 16:29:45 beach: No, I'm using parsers that abort and rollback. 16:30:01 (before anybody thwaps me about punctuating outside of quotes: I know what the grammar books say and I think that's retarted, so I do that my way) 16:30:05 beach: so I can use things like (or (parse-integer x) (parse-string x)) 16:30:10 Zhivago: That might become exponential, right? 16:30:13 beach: I implement it with transactional stacks. 16:30:26 -!- jd8hh57 [n=mickey@host217-34-51-26.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has left #lisp 16:30:37 eh, s/re:/$0 efficiency/ 16:30:42 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-78-106.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:30:43 Zhivago: Are you aware of the Earley algorithm? 16:30:43 beach: Well, no. It would become M*N in the worse case. 16:30:53 mathrick pasted "Read ambiguities" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85536 16:30:56 beach: I think so. 16:31:00 Zhivago: ^ 16:31:08 pjb: and you too can take a look 16:31:45 mathrick: I don't think that would be a problem, because foobar isn't evaluated at readtime. 16:31:50 beach: At the moment my priority is simplicity rather than efficiency. 16:32:45 Adlai: it has nothing to do with grammar books, and everything with metal types and typesetting machines. It's a physical limitation that attained the rule status in American English, but it doesn't hold at all in British English 16:32:56 Zhivago: I understand, but you might want to be careful so that you don't design an API that would then require inefficient algorithms to be used. 16:33:20 beach: I have a simple plan for that -- it's called "throw it away". 16:33:30 beach: Since the parser is decoupled from the code that uses it, it's easy to do. 16:33:33 faire enough. 16:33:37 *Adlai* requests that everybody set their readtables to British from now on when reading his comments. 16:33:51 hi, is it (easily) possible to use C libraries inside CL? 16:34:00 Geralt: yes. 16:34:01 minion: tell Geralt about cffi 16:34:02 Geralt: direct your attention towards cffi: CFFI, the Common Foreign Function Interface, purports to be a portable foreign function interface for Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/cffi 16:34:12 thanks :) 16:34:30 mathrick: Ok. For your case, you have the parser introduce additional parsers when they see macros that want to establish parsing rules. 16:34:38 Zhivago: When I was on sabbatical in Austin, we did some work on extensible grammars for Java-like languages so that they would be able to do things similar to what we do pretty easily in Lisp. 16:36:05 hmm 16:36:09 Zhivago: And one of my many abandoned projects was to create a very general extensible parser framework for Lisp. 16:36:18 is #. used more often than eval-when? 16:36:41 Adlai: impossible to know, and the question doesn't make sense. 16:36:43 Adlai: Why do you care? :) 16:36:57 rread [n=rread@adsl-75-45-210-14.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:14 it's a bit funny that the one that seems infrequent is much quicker to type :) 16:37:26 Adlai: They have different semantics. 16:37:32 of course, there's not much that can be done, because #. has to be a readmacro. 16:37:34 Adlai: Use the one which is least horrible at the time. 16:38:19 Adlai: define an Emacs abbrev that lets you type ew and have it expand to eval-when. 16:38:26 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:27 anyways, I have to go. Thanks for the interesting discussion. 16:38:35 beach: eh, I have fuzzy completion for that :) 16:38:43 *beach* is more and more convinces he is one of very few users of Emacs abbrevs. 16:38:52 *convinced 16:39:11 I've never even heard of them. 16:39:40 Adlai: They save me hours per month of typing. 16:40:10 beach: I'll look into it. Right now though... 16:40:11 Zhivago: sure, but how do I make them decide which one to choose? 16:40:23 (setf *status* :eating) => :EATING 16:40:44 mathrick: The container determines how the contained is interpreted. 16:42:04 Zhivago: and how exactly do I determine the extent of the container? 16:42:18 beach: I mostly get by with word completion 16:42:22 mathrick: However you like. 16:42:33 mathrick: Indefinitely large ones are popular -- like defvar. 16:42:36 beach: I used them a bit in my Ruby work, but the whole system was pretty horrible and hacky 16:42:45 which is sometimes frustrating if the word you want isn't in an open buffer _this_ time around... 16:42:46 raw abbrevs are annoyingly bare 16:43:00 Zhivago: eh? 16:43:25 mathrick: defvar changes how the subsequent code is interpreted. 16:43:47 right, but not how it is read 16:43:48 logBot5492 [n=logBot@59.92.136.110] has joined #lisp 16:43:51 mathrick: Why not? 16:44:01 mathrick: There's no particular reason that it shouldn't change how things are read. 16:44:23 it's not that it shouldn't, but I dunno how to organise it so it works 16:45:22 mathrick: Well, what if (x for all symbols were considered a 'reader macro'? 16:45:26 Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@95.84.4.190] has joined #lisp 16:45:48 mathrick: Then you'd have no problem with (foobar ...) changing the reader for the extent of ... 16:46:35 I would, because I want to tie that extent to the logical occurences of the FOOBAR macro, not FOOBAR symbol 16:47:01 Zhivago: could you give me an example set of parsers that'd be able to parse my example properly? 16:47:10 So, check to see if this is a logical occurrence of the foobar macro before you do anything. 16:47:25 but I can't until after I'm done expanding the containing macro 16:47:34 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-qutjcvzvnkvratxx] has joined #lisp 16:47:39 but I can't know where the containing macro ends until after I'm done reading 16:47:45 mathrick: Nonsense. 16:48:06 mathrick: You've already accepted that you can set up a reader macro which will trigger when it reads the macro invocation. 16:48:20 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:48:25 then please give me a set of parsers that can parse it, as I can't conceive of one 16:48:59 mathrick: Not at this time of night. 16:49:12 Zhivago: yes, but that means macro invocation, not "every time the (foobar is encountered" 16:49:22 that's the crux of the problem 16:49:48 mathrick: Yeah, but you can have a dynamic environment which tells you if this (foobar is going to be a macro invocation. 16:50:03 how does it know this? 16:50:27 mathrick: The container knows how its going to use the contained stuff. 16:50:37 and what is the container here? 16:50:40 s0ber [i=pie@118-160-167-74.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:40 mathrick: So, it can work out if this is in a 'value' or a 'literal' context. 16:51:05 mathrick: In your example, it appears to be toplevel, harbl and foobar. 16:51:23 Or whatever other contexts you want to worry about. 16:51:53 I use that, for example, to determine how to handle commas. 16:53:01 mathrick annotated #85536 "Container" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85536#1 16:53:33 Zhivago: well, and what is the container now? If FOOBAR modifies ; syntax, I can't know it 16:53:49 -!- rread [n=rread@adsl-75-45-210-14.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:53:53 mathrick: You don't need to know. 16:54:09 I don't? 16:54:10 mathrick: Have foobar modify the dynamic environment so that what you're doing knows what environment it is operating in. 16:54:21 mathrick: No, you just need to know what kind of place you're in at the moment. 16:54:30 humm 16:54:34 mathrick: e.g., am I in a place which is going to produce a value? 16:54:37 that is really confusing 16:54:44 mathrick: am I in a place which is going to be part of a literal expression?. 16:54:57 mathrick: These are the two things that you care about most, I guess. 16:55:05 (defrule lisp (quote ,clause) where (is cons clause) (expand `'(literal (list ,@clause)))) 16:55:08 okay, and what kind of place is (foobar in? 16:55:24 -!- pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:55:32 mathrick: Buggered if I know. You haven't told me. 16:55:54 mathrick: Have yet-another-macro set up the information required to answer its questions. 16:55:56 because I don't know, and I don't see what you mean to decide myself 16:56:04 So, tell yourself. 16:56:30 In the above example, I have ` tell , when it should unquote stuff. 16:56:34 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:56:43 That's all that , cares about. 16:56:43 sadly, I find this less than lucid. Do you have some kind of literature you were using in making your system? 16:57:01 if so, could I have it? 16:57:03 mathrick: No. But you can meditate for a while. 16:57:30 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-235.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:57:31 I'll try 16:57:36 mathrick: Can you understand my example above? 16:57:58 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:58:02 lemme see 16:58:18 mathrick: ` establishes an environment which can allow things to decide on how to handle , 16:59:27 Zhivago: so you're declaring a syntax for '(' QUOTE ',' something ')' ? 17:00:13 mathrick: Let's imagine that we have two symbols that , might produce -- COMMA and UNQUOTE 17:00:21 k 17:00:25 mathrick: How can we decide which of those symbols to produce? 17:00:28 -!- sellout- [n=greg@adsl-dyn86.78-99-6.t-com.sk] has quit [] 17:00:34 mathrick: We can get ` to tell us. 17:01:06 mathrick: So, ` can bind a variable which says *backquote* and then everything inside of that context can figure out that it's inside a backquote. 17:01:12 right, but that's easy, since ` operates at read time, so the decision is available immediately 17:01:38 mathrick: Doesn't matter. In my case it actually doesn't operate at read-time. 17:02:08 mathrick: I read that as (backquote (quote (comma x))), and then do that *backquote* thing at expansion time. 17:02:24 mathrick: But, that's an arbitrary decision -- I could do it the other way around, or I could merge both steps. 17:03:34 mathrick: Think of how lexical environments work to tell you what X means. 17:03:59 mathrick: Pretty much the same kind of problem, with pretty much the same kind of solution. 17:04:30 hrmpf 17:05:18 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [No route to host] 17:05:49 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:06:18 Zhivago: okay, so assuming that YET-ANOTHER-MACRO doesn't macroexpand its arguments, and thus (foobar is not actually an invocation of the FOOBAR macro, how would the parse go? 17:07:02 mathrick: Dunno. How would you like it to go? 17:07:49 hi, I have a long-winded question about sb-bsd-sockets and multiple instances of sbcl talking to each other. any clues would be great! http://eriknomitch.com/misc/question.txt 17:07:53 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:20 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:10:47 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@89-180-141-125.net.novis.pt] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 17:10:50 -!- mogunus` [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:11:00 mogunus` [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:06 mathrick annotated #85536 "Desired parse for no invocation case" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85536#2 17:11:13 Zhivago: ^ 17:12:28 -!- gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:12:47 So, what's the problem? 17:12:49 parse for the case where FOOBAR is invoked coming 17:12:53 gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:14:22 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:14:34 bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #lisp 17:14:35 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:14:41 pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 17:15:56 -!- bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:16:02 mathrick annotated #85536 "Desired parse for FOOBAR invocation case" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85536#3 17:16:08 Zhivago: ^ 17:16:11 bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #lisp 17:16:34 Ok, and what's the problem? 17:16:44 the problem is that I could switch them around, so the standard parse would give a syntax error and the non-standard one wouldn't 17:17:00 Well, why is that a problem? 17:17:15 and I can't decide which is correct until after I know where the forms end so that I can macroexpand to see if FOOBAR is invoked or not 17:17:37 Zhivago: or do you mean I should parse both ways and backtrack? 17:17:39 Why do you believe that you need to do that? 17:18:00 because I don't know what kind of information I should gather to be able to parse it 17:18:05 that's why I'm asking 17:18:12 how would your system parse it? 17:18:30 Well, probably the important bit of information we need to know is "Am I in a position to be macroexpanded?" 17:18:52 And I don't see why yet-another-macro can't tell us that. 17:19:02 ah, I see 17:19:13 that'd be because it was written before my new fancy reader 17:19:24 Well, then fix it. 17:19:49 -!- logBot5492 [n=logBot@59.92.136.110] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:19:58 but that makes my code immediately incompatible with ALL existing CL code 17:20:05 that's not a good position to be in 17:20:42 Well, then don't do that. 17:21:04 Although, to be honest, it isn't a big problem. 17:21:19 howso? 17:21:25 Just support some kind of declaration mechanism and whinge at the programmer until he provides the required declarations. 17:21:42 that might be the best way out 17:21:49 I'll have to meditate for a bit 17:21:56 Sounds good. 17:24:28 That's creepy. I write to put "mouse-2: foo" as help-echo, but Emacs will display "mouse-1: foo" 17:24:58 Emacs is a huge ugly hack, news at 11 17:27:05 -!- ShadowChild is now known as lukjad007 17:27:05 if only elisp was scheme or cl 17:28:43 just by itself it wouldn't help with Emacs's approach of piling hacks on top of another hacks 17:29:35 You know, that's the Lisp approach. 17:29:50 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:31:37 mathrick: have you read http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/Ambitious.html ? 17:33:08 I think so, lemme check 17:33:09 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["It's hacks all the way down"] 17:33:28 yes 17:33:59 mathrick: you see that the biggest problem is to know when you've defined such a "macro" and when you have to use to to add it's specific parser. 17:34:01 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:35:01 yes 17:35:14 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:35:30 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-gmojbnpagzxmxbxj] has joined #lisp 17:35:43 mathrick: assuming for the discussion that you start by installing a reader macro on #\(, it would have to read an object, and when it's a symbol, it would have to see if it is a "conspicuous reader macro". Then it could install its parser (it could be a specific readtable), and use it to read the expersion. 17:35:58 expression. 17:36:09 pjb: sure, that part is easy 17:36:22 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:36:29 it's deciding whether it's actually needed that's hard 17:36:34 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:36:59 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:05 dysinger [n=dysinger@98.246.183.155] has joined #lisp 17:37:07 Of course, the possibility to have conspicuous reader macro calls embedded into conspicuous reader macro calls depends on whether the toplevel conspicuous reader macro overrides the reader macro for #\(. 17:37:35 of course, getting rid of reader macros makes it a bit simpler. 17:37:46 It's all about context. 17:38:07 Well, you still have to have specific code linked to readeing #\(. 17:38:13 s/eing/ing/ 17:39:34 Zhivago: I'm not opposed to structuring it as stream parsers or whatever, I just don't want to sacrifice more compatibility than absolutely necessary 17:39:35 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.73.151] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:39:43 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.73.151] has joined #lisp 17:39:52 You're welcome to doom yourself :) 17:40:07 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:41:43 -!- antifuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has quit ["ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"] 17:41:53 (list '(with-parentheses-exchanged ))a b( )c d( )e f(( '((a b) (c d) (e f))) ; notice the imbalance! 17:41:55 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 17:42:17 antifuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:40 Ouf! I'm glad antifuchs didn't see that... 17:43:02 ha ha, pjb (: 17:43:44 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:52:15 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 17:55:45 clynbech [n=user@cpe.atm2-0-1071129.arcnxx16.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:56:44 hello, are there known problems with ecl and slime (both CVS head revs)? 17:57:04 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 17:57:08 yes, there are, look into ecl mailing list 17:57:09 antifuchs: i hope the newest wigflip demo meets your approval 17:57:14 spilman_ [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-116-100.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:58:16 stassats, thanks 17:59:15 *clynbech* stupid, should have thought of the mailing lists 17:59:17 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:00:36 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 18:02:11 http://foobiebletch.wordpress.com/2009/08/17/charts-in-the-repl/ 18:02:15 register [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 18:02:16 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1CA34.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:43 -!- register is now known as Guest1361 18:03:08 weirdo: I've seen this kind of hack before 18:03:37 oh right, it links to that 18:06:12 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:06:16 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 18:07:27 could be handy one day 18:08:04 like the licence of slime-image.diff 18:08:58 i'd probably hack presentations for that 18:10:17 angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:10:18 -!- HG` [n=HG@85.8.72.122] has quit [Client Quit] 18:10:32 HG` [n=HG@85.8.72.122] has joined #lisp 18:11:48 That wouldn't allow automatic display. You'd rather add new repl events. There's (:write-string "foo") now, and you'd add (:write-graphic :jpg (:file "/foo/bar.jpg")) 18:11:53 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-78-106.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:12:19 that slime-devel thread linked to info about getting a vecto canvas too 18:12:51 tcr: yes, i thought something like this 18:13:25 alternatively to (:file "...") there could be to transmit the image encoded in base-64, or similiar 18:14:01 dcrawford: Yes by me. All the others just played copy-cat :P 18:14:26 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-41-123.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:14:49 -!- antifuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has quit ["ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"] 18:14:58 We could then even have (format (swank:repl-output-stream) "Foo bar ~/swank:img/ quuxx" (compute-img)) work! 18:15:34 As first thing, I'd suggest to rewrite the repl code, though :) 18:15:53 milanj [n=milan@79.101.196.168] has joined #lisp 18:15:59 and also for playing videos 18:16:16 Does Emacs support that? 18:16:34 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 18:17:10 i doubt 18:17:18 but it always can be added 18:17:31 SMOP 18:17:40 I like the way you think. More power to you. 18:18:29 antifuchs [n=foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:41 Plz also make it work on tty 18:18:44 -!- HG` [n=HG@85.8.72.122] has quit [Client Quit] 18:19:09 *stassats`* imagines struggles of adding video support to emacs and in the end "wait, why the hell do i need to play video inside emacs?" 18:19:23 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:19:23 -!- Guest1361 is now known as Symmetry- 18:19:27 -!- clynbech [n=user@cpe.atm2-0-1071129.arcnxx16.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:19:33 if everyone thought like that, we wouldn't today be able to read mail or usenet in emacs 18:19:58 tcr: that's easy, mplayer can output into ascii 18:20:30 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:20:37 there is an emacs video editor mode... doesn't that do it? 18:21:04 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 18:21:13 *stassats`* once tried to play video over ssh in ascii 18:21:18 loxs [n=loxs@82.119.85.174] has joined #lisp 18:21:35 -!- mogunus` [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:22:06 heh, did it work? 18:22:35 at one old lab at my uni, people were playing quake in ASCII using XTs as terminals 18:22:36 yeah, it did, but there was no sound 18:22:36 frito [n=keithman@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 18:24:37 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 18:26:36 clynbech [n=user@cpe.atm2-0-1071129.arcnxx16.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:26:57 amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 18:27:25 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:45 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:29:08 -!- jao [n=jao@147.Red-83-42-209.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:31:18 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:32:38 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:32 tcr, how do i add new event types? 18:35:12 By hacking dispatch-event in swank.lisp, and slime-dispatch-event in slime.el. For the latter, there's a hook 18:37:20 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:37:37 object system wouldn't hurt slime 18:38:36 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:40:47 jao [n=jao@147.Red-83-42-209.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:52 do i need to edit swank:dispatch-event? 18:40:59 only emacs receives this event 18:44:07 you do not have to edit it 18:45:19 you can just send it directly with encode-message 18:46:46 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-168-78-251.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:47:40 Debugger entered: nil (condition-case error (slime-net-read) (error (debug) (slime-net-close process t) (error "net-read error: %S" error))) 18:48:25 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:48:39 -!- ironChicken [n=richard@158.223.51.84] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:49:51 anyone knows why this happens? 18:50:59 what is the error message? 18:51:43 no error message, it happens and i need to close the repl 18:52:09 -!- pdenno [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:53:06 and what did you do? 18:53:26 w8 18:54:07 wacht? 18:54:10 it can be because you sent something wrong to it, like length of the message isn't right 18:55:33 -!- Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@95.84.4.190] has left #lisp 18:55:41 weirdo pasted "that's what i did" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85541 18:55:57 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:57:36 hi, using the sb-c:deftransform stuff .. how does one look at or inspect the resulting expansion for some form? 18:57:59 disassemble? 18:58:43 oh .. i recall it being possible to look at it before those final steps 18:59:25 lnostdal: at least one way is to use the :trace-file option to compile-file, I believe IR1 is dumped in there 18:59:42 ok, kpreid 18:59:58 (describe 'compile-file) to get docs 19:01:11 what kpreid says, but also if you put a breakpoint at compile-component and then use describe-component, you can do it for non-compiled-files too 19:02:43 Lucia_ [n=Lucia@148.Red-79-148-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:59 weirdo: i think i can reproduce something similar 19:05:08 thanks Krystof 19:05:41 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.22] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:08:18 yango_ [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 19:08:22 Xach: do you mean the "thank you joelr1" one? (: 19:08:27 I approve (-: 19:08:31 ok 19:09:52 hmm 19:10:07 otoh, I think the "MARIO" in the top left corner should be "joelr1", no? (: 19:10:10 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:10:28 also, love that he has 84 coins. did his venture ever get profitable? 19:10:40 *Xach* still needs to animate that coin 19:10:48 mario seems to be spending all these coins on health insurance 19:11:02 *Xach* has a polish checklist 19:11:40 weirdo: are you really sure that you do call namestring there? #P can confuse emacs 19:11:41 I was going to make an utterly weak joke about how it might be more efficient to keep the list in english 19:11:43 but NO 19:13:07 -!- clynbech [n=user@cpe.atm2-0-1071129.arcnxx16.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:13:10 clynbech [n=user@cpe.atm2-0-1071129.arcnxx16.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:16:02 TR2N [i=email@89.180.238.249] has joined #lisp 19:16:28 -!- Lucia [n=Lucia@148.Red-79-148-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:18:52 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:22:44 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:23:39 meh 19:24:33 ignore that please 19:25:24 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 19:27:58 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-121-243.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:28:43 -!- clynbech [n=user@cpe.atm2-0-1071129.arcnxx16.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:28:45 clynbech` [n=user@cpe.atm2-0-1071129.arcnxx16.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:29:15 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-56-66.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:29:53 -!- angerman [n=angerman@host41.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [] 19:31:33 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:32:42 segoe [n=segoe@83.231.87.49] has joined #lisp 19:32:49 cmo-0` [n=user@92.96.20.45] has joined #lisp 19:33:38 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:33:49 -!- Aisling_ [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:36:06 antoni [n=user@46.Red-79-152-211.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:26 -!- jao [n=jao@147.Red-83-42-209.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:41:30 -!- cmo-0` [n=user@92.96.20.45] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:44:49 jao [n=jao@83.33.230.31] has joined #lisp 19:44:52 -!- antoni [n=user@46.Red-79-152-211.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:45:44 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-1-244.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:46:28 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@sentry3.jayschools.org] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:47:33 -!- sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:49:33 -!- jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:49:43 stassats`, well as you can see i call NAMESTRING 19:49:58 jthing [n=jthing@165.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:50:04 tcr would know 19:50:08 i see it in the code 19:50:47 i can tell more if you provide more details 19:52:02 like exact patch 19:55:56 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:57:34 -!- Handcrafted [n=henrik@0x573bbf5a.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.ronqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:59:19 Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 20:01:54 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 20:02:07 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:04:43 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:05:34 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsldb174.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:08:42 alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:28 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-182-153.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 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20:43:22 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:44:23 stassats`, there's not much more 20:44:29 i only added what's in the paste 20:47:17 Good evening. 20:47:33 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:48:10 *Adlai`* cusses like a sailor at the internet. 20:48:21 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:48:31 -!- frito [n=keithman@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:48:35 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 20:50:18 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:50:36 good evening beach 20:50:48 still enjoying your holidays? 20:52:00 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:52:15 what's a data structure more suited toward newbie programmers? deques? lists? something else? 20:52:26 python/perl/ruby all have deques 20:52:50 weirdo: what do you want to use it for? 20:53:19 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:38 weirdo: stacks, I'd say 20:53:44 weirdo: well, then press "c" when you in the debugger 20:57:29 Is three a way to update a function's definition for running threads too ? I use SBCL and Clozure 20:58:35 blandest: they'll pick it up, but not sure how safe that is. 20:58:39 -!- pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit ["coming back right away"] 20:58:45 blandest: I think that function definitions are global across threads, but I might be wrong about that. If I'm wrong, you could probably define a protocol for sending defun forms to a thread, for the thread to evaluate in its dynamic environment. 20:59:19 Adlai: why defun forms? 20:59:32 blandest: of course, if you pass #'foo around that's not affected by redefinitions. 21:00:10 stassats`: "... a function's definition" -- I guess that could also be done with #'(setf symbol-function) or defmethod, though. 21:00:27 luis: I need to make my changes visible across all threads 21:00:40 without restarting the lisp image 21:00:43 blandest: have you tried it? 21:00:53 hm, true, you don't need -forms-, you could just send the compiled code object too. 21:01:19 luis: I will try it now :) 21:01:46 luis: so my threads need to use #'foo instead of (foo) ? 21:01:51 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:01:58 no 21:02:01 madnificent: Yes. Going to visit my family in Sweden for a week starting next Wednesday. 21:02:04 blandest: no. 21:02:11 beach, evenining! did you get a reply? 21:02:26 tic: What about? 21:02:41 blitz_ [n=blitz@2001:6f8:10f6:200:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has joined #lisp 21:03:14 blandest: what I was saying is that (defun foo () 1) (let ((1st-foo #'foo)) (defun foo () 2) (list (funcall 1st-foo) (foo))) => (1 2) 21:03:14 beach, the stay. 21:03:23 (you just disappeared) 21:03:37 tic: Hold on... 21:03:50 (progn (defun foo () (print 10)) (ccl:process-run-function :test (lambda () (loop (foo) (sleep 2)))) (sleep 2) (defun foo () (print 30))) WFM 21:04:16 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:04:43 stassats`: I wonder if such redefinitions are safe though? 21:05:02 tic: I didn't, but I am confident it's OK. 21:05:05 same with sbcl 21:05:11 beach, goodie. 21:05:18 stassats`, error in process filter: net-read error: (cl-assertion-failed (plusp length)) 21:05:56 that appeared as a message, but the backtrace window was empty 21:06:03 right 21:06:04 tic: My niece is a bit busy at the moment with the new baby. 21:06:39 luis: stassats` thanks 21:07:07 rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:07:07 beach, oh! 21:07:49 tic: adopted from China! I have never seen him before! 21:08:08 beach, it'll be interesting, then! 21:08:15 indeed! 21:09:01 -!- segoe [n=segoe@83.231.87.49] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:10:07 beach: I wonder if he'll want to learn chinese when he grows up. 21:10:28 beach: how old is the new baby? 21:10:57 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:11:07 -!- blandest [n=user@79.112.99.101] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:11:14 weirdo: well, i can't reproduce and can't think of any way it can signal that error 21:11:35 i again suggest you to give me the patch 21:11:55 luis: Possibly! I think that's the plan, but I'll learn more in a week or so. 21:12:10 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:46 beach: heh, it'll be tough! 21:12:52 Adlai: Not quite sure. Somewhere between one and two years. 21:13:08 pjb [n=t@85-169-63-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 21:13:15 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:13:21 luis: I could keep you updated. 21:13:25 beach: ah, nearing the age of sentience! 21:13:26 (actually i can think, but not caused by modifications you have shown) 21:13:57 beach: I'll bug you about it at ECLM or something. :) 21:14:06 Adlai: my niece is a great person, and I am sure she can do it. 21:14:29 luis: You'll be there? Great! 21:14:52 Anybody know why the ASDF manual documents operations FEATURE-DEPENDENT-OP and TEST-SYSTEM-VERSION? They seem to be nowhere in the source... 21:15:45 luis: I can't remember whether we have already met :( (my memory is getting worse). 21:16:02 rpg: wishful-thinking. 21:16:10 beach: we haven't, no. 21:16:10 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 21:16:36 beach: but we're facebook friends! (hah) 21:16:44 my cousins, between all of them, have 5 kids with an average age of less than 3 years! 21:17:12 luis: Then this will be a great opportunity! And you can bring your copy of Lisp in Small Pieces for my wife to sign. 21:17:16 scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-71-241.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:30 beach: luis and I have met (on the racetrack) 21:17:43 Adlai: I see :) 21:18:09 (that typing race thing. I almost won each time...) 21:18:38 beach: I'm planning to just take a backpack if I can. :) 21:19:02 Who was the Masked Typist anyway? 21:20:53 sykopomp 21:21:15 I'm pretty sure it was sykopomp. 21:21:21 typing game? 21:21:58 madnificent: yes -- who can get their statically-typed programs to compile first. 21:21:59 bgs101 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:21:59 ahhh, LoL 21:22:25 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:22:25 madnificent: no, it was an actual keyboard typing game. 21:22:35 -!- bgs101 is now known as bgs100 21:22:55 luis: Adlai's idea was cooler :P (which one?) 21:23:06 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-160-167-74.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:23:12 typeracer.com 21:23:18 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-167-74.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:22 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:24:31 luis: "masked typist"? My wife translated it into English, and most people agree the translation is better than the original. Furthermore, my wife is one of the few people I know who learned Lisp as the first programming language. 21:25:06 ++win 21:25:16 beach: Interesting! (sorry, I was talking to Adlai there about that typing game.) 21:25:28 luis: Ah, OK. 21:25:42 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-218-212.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:25:43 beach: translation is very hard. Good job! :) 21:25:49 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-218-212.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:07 luis: I know. I am very proud of her! 21:26:13 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2DD62.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:36 beach: that's impressive. Ditto what luis said. 21:28:22 rpg_ [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:28:24 Adlai: sure, but it has been documented that her translation is more popular than Harry Potter: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/amazon.ca.ps 21:28:51 Heh, I remember that. 21:28:53 *rpg_* is annoyed by his network bouncing... 21:29:03 when it was very cheap? 21:29:07 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:29:16 -!- rpg_ is now known as rpg 21:29:22 *michaelw* never got it *sniff* 21:29:34 I don't think anyone did. 21:29:39 So bring your copies to ECLM for her to sign! 21:29:52 heh, unfortunately beating harry potter at the charts is no mean feat. 21:29:55 luis: the guy who broke the story did 21:30:01 which language did she translate into? 21:30:12 Adlai: English 21:30:26 oh what language is the original in? 21:30:37 French 21:30:45 *in which 21:33:28 -!- bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [Client Quit] 21:39:03 -!- danlei` [n=user@pD9E2DD62.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:43:13 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CC6C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:45:40 luis: that game scientifically prooved that -although less nice to type on- the dinovo edge beats the ibm model m in typing speed 21:46:39 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:46:45 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:19 madnificent: screw that. Kinesis FTW. 21:47:26 madnificent: lies! 21:47:45 luis: I haven't toyed with that yet 21:47:51 Ralith: which part? 21:48:02 14:48:00 < madnificent> luis: that game scientifically prooved that -although less nice to type on- the dinovo edge beats the ibm model m in typing speed 21:48:13 Ralith: I repeat: which part? 21:48:30 14:48:00 < madnificent> ... the dinovo edge beats the ibm model m in typing speed 21:48:33 ahh 21:49:00 well, it seems to suit my way of typing better... for some reason... Yet the model M feels so much more natural to type on 21:49:10 I guess I still press the keys to far, which makes me react too slow 21:49:27 *Ralith* protectively shields his model m from the heresy 21:49:46 my neuro-interface beats all your toyish keyboards 21:50:08 Ralith: I have the Model M and the edge here on the same computer. On more than one occasion have I put the edge aside with the thought "What's this thing doing here, I need to work" 21:50:09 the thing about the model m is that even if you were really typing more slowly than with some other keyboard, you *sound* really productive 21:50:16 madnificent: hehe 21:50:26 stassats`: bet you can't use that to beat someone's skull in, though :D 21:50:26 incf jsnell 21:50:38 stassats`: current such interfaces take ~20 seconds per letter don't they? 21:50:59 Ralith: the edge would probably feel like a pillow when it scatters to pieces on the person's head 21:51:14 luis: i use technologies from future 21:52:03 luis: depends on the training of the person... the reaction speed can be much faster, but it may be hard to get enough distinguishable actions in them 21:52:44 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:52:58 luis: which kinesis do you have (and/or which one do you advise) 21:54:03 fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.14.221] has joined #lisp 21:54:23 good morning :-) 21:54:32 good morning fusss 21:54:38 what keyboard are you typing on? 21:54:43 madnificent: I have an old Kinesis Advantage. 21:55:58 anyone know if cl-prevalence is light weight enough for routine CLOS objects serialization to and from socket? 21:56:29 i don't need it for disk storage, just a quick way to render a clos object in a manner usable to a non-lisper 21:56:30 it does seem to greatly reduce the distance the fingers move to reach the bottom and top rows 21:58:00 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 21:58:58 madnificent: I can't really say whether it's better or worse than more mainstream natural keyboards. I haven't tried those yet. 22:00:21 luis: perhaps I should buy an old model M, create a large-scale funeral for it, and convert it to something like that... If I know the angles, I can probably create an all-aluminium model out of it 22:00:43 I like the type of key on the model m, but the springs should be short 22:00:46 (end offtopic) 22:00:51 bgs101 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:01:04 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:01:10 -!- bgs101 is now known as bgs100 22:01:32 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-114.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 22:01:39 *guaqua* uses kinesis freestyle (w/ vip kit) 22:02:39 *fusss* is really wondering if there is a standard way/library for serializing CLOS objects into XML without, say, having to write print-object methods 22:03:25 I found this http://www.cliki.net/xml-emitter 22:03:37 fusss: perhaps you can go through json. Otherwise you can probably make a library yourself fairly easily. You can xmlify the slots of the object and save them 22:03:49 fusss: cl-serializer, perhaps? 22:03:58 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:08 fusss: also, cl-store. 22:04:14 fusss: oh wait, you'd still need to figure out links etc, which might be non-trivial 22:04:21 madnificent: i was using cl-json but management brought in people who don't know what it is 22:04:31 luis: cheers! :-) 22:05:08 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:05:17 madnificent: no, the clos object are dump and contain only primitive datatypes; they're themselves fetched from database and handed out over the network after brief frobbing 22:05:18 fusss: I think it's cl-store that has an XML backend, but I might be misremembering. 22:05:43 brb 22:07:24 fusss: if all else fails: json to xml and back 22:07:25 fusss: and why do they need to know? 22:08:12 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:10:31 stepnem_ [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:15 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 22:13:43 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:15:02 madnificent: i just need a basic functionality for now, it seems like I am over engineering things 22:15:41 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.196.168] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:16:02 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:17:51 I do user authentication for remote sites; each site has a set of roles, an each user has a set of functionalities permitted by the roles he is in. I am generating all the menu options, tuple of (action-name, action-url, action-help-string); it's up to the web developers at the remote site to choose how they render this information on screen. 22:18:58 fusss: sounds nice 22:19:17 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [No route to host] 22:19:51 -!- stepnem_ is now known as stepnem 22:20:19 i know, but you will be surprised at how many people don't get it. 22:20:33 how can you not get that? 22:20:41 fusss: I mean: what don't they understand? 22:22:55 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:55 -!- spilman_ [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-116-100.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:23:26 for example, I require that they have an a "/success" script mechanism. for every user they send to me to authenticate, I need to POST the success along with security token and other information back to their system; some developer just can't understand why I need this. I am thinking of writing the script myself in perl, php, python and java (for all the possible OS+httpd+language permutations tha 22:23:27 t they use) 22:24:18 a good chunk of web developer go on for years without ever having to setup SSL for their web servers. 22:25:45 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:26:00 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@mail.mwtrophy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:26:06 jcowan_ [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 22:26:10 fusss: care to elaborate on the success script? I'm not getting it either (may understand with some more information) 22:27:03 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-35-218-212.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:27:25 Hun [n=Hun@p4FD3D0EC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:53 it's basically a URL on the referring website where I can submit a form, automatically. if foo.com has a login form for the user to signup, say foo.com/login I also need foo.com/login-success or similar, over https, where my web server will submit a form effectively "migrating" the user's settings to foo.com's database 22:29:59 fusss: your app is a service for other websites then? 22:30:03 yes 22:30:04 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@host-70-45-45-98.onelinkpr.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:26 and why can't you have that /success? 22:30:47 because of "guidelines" or "the tomcat guy is away" or whatever :-P 22:31:21 anyway, this is way offtopic :-P brb 22:31:54 yeah somewhat 22:32:55 salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has joined #lisp 22:32:59 'evening 22:33:01 guaqua, how does the kinesis compare to model m? 22:33:13 -!- TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:33:15 Samy [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:58 -!- jcowan_ [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has left #lisp 22:40:26 fusss: isn't that what openid is for? 22:41:20 tic: my wrists stay happy and the tactile feedback is good enough (probably not as defined as in model m) 22:41:27 guaqua: openid does authentication of the user, not the management of the user's rights 22:41:53 madnificent: there are group migration addons to it 22:42:00 guaqua, okay, thanks. 22:43:09 tic: i do recommend it. especially for people with rsi or some other similar condition 22:43:12 what is the function called if i want to take the first n elements of a list? 22:45:08 clhs subseq 22:45:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subseq.htm 22:45:25 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:45:48 guaqua: any links? I'm interested 22:46:05 guaqua: OpenID is for users. OAuth is for applications. We use cl-oauth :-) 22:46:27 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:47:34 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 22:48:30 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:48:46 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:49:06 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:12 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:55:32 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:56:36 Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 22:56:45 stassats`: thakn 22:56:49 stassats`: thanks 22:57:25 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:40 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:01:51 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-235.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:01:53 [sbahra] [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:20 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p4FD3D0EC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:09:11 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@80.202.254.154] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 23:11:32 bgs101 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:11:49 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:11:55 -!- bgs101 is now known as bgs100 23:13:49 TDT [n=user@vs1202.rosehosting.com] has joined #lisp 23:14:38 -!- Samy [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:15:32 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 23:19:50 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:21:02 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:50 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@host-70-45-45-98.onelinkpr.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:27:20 dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:13 mogunus [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:26 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:28:26 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@2001:6f8:10f6:200:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:36:32 -!- pdenno [n=pdenno@bigfuzz.mxnet.mel.nist.gov] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:37:23 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsldb174.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:38:32 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@115.128.14.221] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:42:32 the_new_you [i=mynicksu@207-237-120-96.c3-0.avec-ubr13.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:42:46 -!- the_new_you [i=mynicksu@207-237-120-96.c3-0.avec-ubr13.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 23:46:59 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.212.29] has quit [Client Quit] 23:47:36 -!- scottmaccal [n=scott@pool-71-173-71-241.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:48:04 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@pD9E6DB4A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 23:49:03 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:54:24 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:54:45 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:56:41 weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp