00:01:32 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:58 well, it depends how you actually optimize those loops 00:06:54 and afaik MacLisp didn't start with the goal of being faster than FORTRAN, but fast code was one of goals... and on PDP-10, maclisp was faster 00:15:46 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:16:44 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:17:04 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@89.166.150.16] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:19:02 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-38-170.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 00:19:09 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcw016.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:19:12 -!- Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:19:13 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:41 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcw016.osnanet.de] has left #lisp 00:20:19 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:22:15 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:22:33 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-179-45-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:23:05 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:40 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-78-106.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:27:08 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:28:17 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:35 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:50 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 00:39:51 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:45:14 seangrove [n=user@cpe-76-90-50-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:48:01 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:48:13 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:29 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@nmd.sbx05662.cuperca.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:40 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:49:53 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:59 dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #lisp 00:50:41 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:53:53 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-hwyqvhpykfohoxgj] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:55:06 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:57:33 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:38 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:02:23 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-126-175.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [" MS forgot to close port 80  People can fuck off "] 01:07:46 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-126-175.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 01:09:21 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:35 I think compiler optimizations are about the worst cases. 01:14:23 what do you guys think about clojure? 01:14:27 You can't go further than optimum, so it's a race between increasing abstraction and its efficient representation. 01:15:12 konr: seems like a good project from a good lisp dude. 01:15:29 deepfire: did you write a parser generator ? 01:15:37 i remember some code about parsing elf files 01:15:39 konr: if i was forced to use a JVM language, i'd probably reach for clojure first. 01:15:44 if so, could you give me the link 01:16:02 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 01:16:17 xristos, git://git.feelingofgreen.ru/{cl-io-elf,bintype,pergamum} 01:16:31 thanks 01:17:02 (which further depend on iterate, alexandria and cl-fad) 01:17:13 not a problem 01:17:41 alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:43 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:17:58 alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:57 drewc: hmm, what would force you to do that, ie, what is the JVM good for? I'm interested in it to write a program that has a pretty GUI on both Linux and Windows. In this case, can I easily do it in Common Lisp? 01:19:34 konr: you could do it fairly easily with Ltk. 01:20:03 i haven't yet used a Java UI that I thought looked all that nice in both Windows and Linux, but I haven't tried many, either. 01:20:45 drewc: i would reach for cl on jvm 01:20:55 abcl looks good these days 01:21:12 people use CAPI in LispWorks to make commercial windows applications. it looks pretty nice to me. 01:21:30 i don't remember if the linux CAPI UI is any good yet, though. 01:22:00 that is, it used to use motif, and it looked about as bad (good?) as any other motif app 01:22:36 WarWeasle [n=brad@98.220.168.14] has joined #lisp 01:22:47 aminorex1 [n=aminorex@24-179-163-72.dhcp.dlth.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:22:57 Xach: haha, apparently it still looks the same: http://www.lispworks.com/products/capi.html 01:23:06 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 01:23:16 Can I pass arrays to the cffi? 01:24:02 WarWeasle, c->lisp or? 01:24:03 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:24:12 you can pin byte vectors and pass the pointer 01:24:28 i'm not really sure if that is what you want to do though 01:24:31 deepfire: Lisp-> 01:24:32 konr: what will your application do? 01:24:42 I'm passing array to cl-opengl 01:24:54 arrays, rather 01:25:28 WarWeasle, then what xristos says, with-pointer-to-vector-data. 01:26:12 WarWeasle, but the CFFI manual has it.. 01:26:38 chris2_ [n=chris@p5B16AE85.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 01:26:42 cool i didn't know about that 01:26:58 Xach: It's a simple program in which the user must be able to click on some points in an image, input some data, and it will calculate a value. 01:26:58 i was doing the pining myself ;( 01:27:02 -!- aminorex [n=aminorex@24-179-163-72.dhcp.dlth.mn.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:27:05 Then I just spent week of real time remaking arrays... 01:27:24 dnm_ [n=dnm@cpe-69-204-149-14.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:27:46 -!- chris2_ [n=chris@p5B16AE85.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 01:28:05 i have recently made a new application 01:28:12 Xach: later, I'll implement some image processing, hopefully :) 01:28:24 http://xach.com/tmp/mario.gif is an early example of its output 01:28:30 deepfire: Thanks! 01:28:30 i suspect it will be the next great wigflip hit 01:28:40 Xach had a plugin in GIMP named after him :-) 01:28:57 that was a long time ago 01:29:23 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:33:45 *Xach* must finish thankyoumario.lisp 01:34:26 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:13 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:35:26 *p_l* wonders why people complain so much about motif... :P 01:35:50 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:26 pizdets [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:41 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:37:42 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 01:37:45 p_l: i thought it looked old-fashioned and awkward even when it was brand-new 01:39:30 logBot3185 [n=logBot@59.92.196.237] has joined #lisp 01:41:06 p_l: because it is a pile of crap ? 01:41:13 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@nmd.sbx05662.cuperca.wayport.net] has quit [] 01:41:25 the fact that it was the standard in unix-land for so long is enlightening 01:42:00 they managed to get the mess that is raw x11 programming and make it even worse 01:42:18 from the programmer's point of view? 01:42:23 mainly 01:42:44 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B169568.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 01:42:47 i could stomach using it long before there was gtk 01:45:08 I'd wait tables before writing Motif code again. 01:45:50 how does waiting tables help writing Motif code? 01:46:54 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-37.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:48:23 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:52:10 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:07 rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 01:54:57 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.182.237] has joined #lisp 01:55:44 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:56:19 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-152-32.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:41 dralston [n=danieljr@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:44 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:36 -!- dralston [n=danieljr@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:05:01 -!- sepult 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[n=jan247@124.6.185.27] has joined #lisp 03:24:14 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:26 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.137.224] has left #lisp 03:31:26 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954FD45.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:40:08 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:41:50 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:57 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:43:59 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 03:46:13 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 03:46:57 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Client Quit] 03:47:31 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 03:50:10 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:11 hi! there is a section in "tutorial on good lisp programming style" by Peter Norvig named "some red flags": you should proceed cautiously if *) any use of eval *) any use of gentemp *) any use of append *) the absence of an &environment parameter in a macro that uses setf or calls to macroexpand *) writing a conditional handler for type error (including use of ignore-errors) and so on. Would you explain, what's wrong with append, why is 03:52:12 it a red flag? 03:52:57 it's slow? 03:54:13 npoektop: append usually means you're not using the right data structure. 03:55:10 interesting. didn't know that about append. 03:55:16 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:55:38 That and, yes, from what I understand, append is not the most efficient operator. 03:56:23 constantly is most efficient "operator" 03:57:56 Is it? Lordy, have I mixed things up then. 03:58:07 Not as uncommon as I would like... 03:58:48 identity is efficient too 03:59:48 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/90ed25a5b8152cfe/3f2bf7b15a70ee9a?#3f2bf7b15a70ee9a 04:00:08 ok. wrong data structure means inefficiency. i get it. thanx! 04:00:09 From how that sounds, the only real problem is if you're dealing with sinfully (REALLY sinfully) long lists. 04:02:30 |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E452C5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:04 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 04:09:00 -!- Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:11:14 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:16:38 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:18:21 girzel`` [n=user@123.121.218.183] has joined #lisp 04:19:44 dwh [n=dwh@ppp121-44-203-158.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:32 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E456BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 04:21:03 it's the O(n) vs. O(n^2) sort of thing 04:21:29 suppose you build up a long list by appending a bunch of short lists 04:21:57 repeated (append long short) will be O(n^2), repeated (append short long) will be O(n) 04:22:28 (where n = the length of the resulting long list and the short list is independent of n) 04:33:05 coderdad [n=coderdad@pool-68-238-152-246.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:13 -!- girzel` [n=user@123.121.218.183] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:36:20 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:37:46 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:39:25 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:03 Good morning. 04:43:48 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:44:45 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:44:57 dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #lisp 04:46:29 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 04:47:49 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-142-132.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:49:32 morning. 04:50:58 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:51:40 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 04:51:44 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 04:51:58 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:52:21 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 04:52:23 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:52:39 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 04:52:44 -!- logBot3185 [n=logBot@59.92.196.237] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:52:55 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:16 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Client Quit] 04:55:41 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-96-75.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:59:29 _stern_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4677D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:38 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:05:03 is there any more difference between flet and labels than with labels it's possible to define recursive functions, while with flet it's not? 05:06:10 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 05:06:22 not that I can think of no. 05:07:55 clhs flet 05:07:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm 05:08:04 npoektop: Did you read that page? 05:14:14 read, missed most significant part. but why one would like to use flet if labels is extended flet and does everything flet does? 05:15:29 flet does not establish recursive definitions. labels does. 05:15:35 I'm having trouble learning how to use loop with files. What do I need to add to the following code so that loop knows to stop at the end of file: (loop (format t "~a~%" (read-line *sf*))) 05:16:14 Consider (flet ((+ a b) (print (+ a b))) (+ a b)) 05:16:37 Then contrast with the equivalent labels form. 05:17:38 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E452C5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:18:22 Zhivago: interesting. 05:19:10 If they had called labels 'fletrec', it might have been clearer. 05:19:23 npoektop: There is a very general rule in programming that says that you should use the most specific construct for a particular task, so for instance use incf instead of setf and 1+ instead of (+ .. 1) when appropriate. Similarly, when you see flet, you are telling the reader of the code that "this function does not call itself". 05:19:52 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:20:00 Unless we have a y combinator handy :) 05:20:26 More accurately "this function is not in the scope of this function's name". 05:21:11 ok, it's clear. thanx 05:21:31 Welcome. Please learn how to spell "thanks". 05:21:57 mgimo? 05:21:58 lat: (loop for line = (read-line *sf* nil nil) until (null line) do (format ...)) 05:23:11 npoektop: Bad spelling, espeially when it is intentionally bad, is frowned upon in this channel. 05:24:25 -!- xan_ is now known as xan 05:24:47 it saves one keystroke per message 05:24:59 Just learn how to type. 05:25:01 npoektop: perhaps you should learn how to use Emacs abbrevs. 05:25:46 ok, ok 05:25:51 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 05:26:02 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:01 -!- gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:31:04 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:31:26 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:33:55 beach, that works. Many thanks! You are helping me get excited about lisp. Lisp, I think is opening some doors for me. Do you use sbcl? 05:34:25 lat: I do, yes. 05:35:08 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:35:49 -!- prip [n=_prip@host157-124-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:35:53 beach, great. That is what I'm using also. 05:40:05 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:26 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:40:46 lat: It looks like you have been trying to take time to learn Lisp for more than a year. 05:41:31 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 05:43:59 lat: What made you want to learn it in the first place? 05:44:09 beach, yes. I'm very busy, so it is taking some time, but I'm very serious about learning Lisp. 05:48:35 beach, unicode support. Also, I was convinced it would make me a better programmer. Also, I switched to Linux, and started learning Emacs, which I greatly like, and want to be able to program. Also, I started using stumpwm, 05:48:45 which I love. 05:48:52 lat 05:49:00 that is 100% my conversion path 05:49:01 lol 05:49:06 lat: Hey, it sounds like you have a plan. 05:49:10 its like you feel the light calling you, right? 05:49:43 beach, yes. I guess so. 05:52:16 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-142-132.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:52:38 beach, also I liked the helpfulness I saw in this channel. You especially have been a big encouragement. 05:52:48 lat: Great! 05:55:05 moocow, yes. 05:55:24 i've read in a lot of places that lisp users are rude 05:55:34 i've never seen it n the years i've been in this channel 05:55:40 nothing but helpfull folks 05:55:57 -!- seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 06:07:15 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@pool-68-238-152-246.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:10:57 Can sbcl correcly sort unicode 06:11:13 greek words? 06:14:00 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:15:07 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:19:08 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:22 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:37 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-96-75.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:49 lat: By code point, I am sure it can. Lexicographically, probably not. It is complicated because it depends on the language. 06:35:31 beach, what do you mean by code point? 06:35:59 lat: It is Unicode terminology, essentially the integer representation of the character. 06:38:05 beach, ok. Thanks. I'll study up on that. 06:38:15 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:41:00 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:43:11 lat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_point 06:45:25 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 06:45:57 beach, thanks! 06:47:11 daniel___ [n=daniel@p5082D7B2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:48:00 angerman [n=angerman@p57A3A21D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:48:14 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:48:56 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 06:49:06 lat: Sure, no problem. So for instance an e with a circumflex has code point #xEA, which is greater than the code point for f which is #x66, but French would definitely sort the e with a circumflex before the f. 06:50:15 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:50:16 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 06:50:39 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 06:52:17 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1DA3.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:53:25 beach, I see. Looks like sorting should not be to big a problem. 06:53:45 lat: What do you mean? 06:59:22 -!- angerman [n=angerman@p57A3A21D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 07:03:33 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:04:35 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:08:56 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 07:12:00 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:08 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-96-75.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:19:48 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:24:04 morensel [n=irony@unaffiliated/romani] has joined #lisp 07:24:29 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-5-157.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:24:31 -!- morensel [n=irony@unaffiliated/romani] has left #lisp 07:26:34 beach, I mean that it looks like sorting using code point should be fairly easy. 07:27:14 lat: Definitely! I would think #'char< would work for comparison. 07:27:22 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 07:29:53 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:32:35 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:33:58 Is there a remove-if #'numeric? Are all of the predicates listed in the hyperspecs? 07:34:05 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 07:34:38 lat: You can use any function as a test. 07:35:01 clhs digit-char-p 07:35:02 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_digi_1.htm 07:36:29 lat: Did you mean to check whether an character is a digit or whether an element is a number? 07:38:07 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ipmwcwnjozjdjiiq] has joined #lisp 07:40:47 beach, I want to remove all the numbers from a string of text. 07:41:15 lat: A string of text contains no numbers, only digits (a subtype of character). 07:41:59 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-25-23.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:42:47 Lone_Wanderer [n=Dan@c-67-169-246-153.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:15 beach, I see. Thus the name digit-char-p! Makes sense now. 07:45:11 Is the CLOS implemented as closures around lets? 07:45:29 Lone_Wanderer: ? 07:45:42 Common Lisp Object System 07:46:06 Lone_Wanderer: I know CLOS, but I don't know why you are asking that. CLOS is implemented largely in itself. 07:46:07 with lets inside the closures creating the properties, etc. 07:46:12 okay 07:46:20 minion: tell Lone_Wanderer about AMOP. 07:46:21 Lone_Wanderer: look at AMOP: The Art of the Metaobject Protocol, an essential book for understanding the implementation of CLOS and advanced OO. See the sepcification of MOP at http://www.lisp.org/mop/ 07:46:21 I was guessing the answer was "no" but I wasn't sure. 07:46:28 sweet! 07:46:33 thanks 07:46:33 HG` [n=wells@xdslgd006.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:46:38 I was talking to a guy at the gym about it the other day. 07:46:42 He probably hangs out here actually. 07:46:57 I also don't see how "closures around lets" could be used in order to implement something like CLOS. 07:47:10 Me neither. 07:47:28 But if you're coming to Lisp from C++ 07:47:42 and you haven't started learning about CLOS, it would make sense 07:47:51 I don't think so. 07:47:59 Why not? 07:48:31 Lone_Wanderer: How could a closure around a let be used to implement a generic function or a class? 07:48:40 in C++ an object is basically a wrapper around normal variables and functions. If you're in the early stages of learning Lisp, it would make sense to think that. 07:49:28 A C++ object is basically a struct with a pointer to a table containing the methods. 07:49:36 (I am simplifying a bit) 07:49:40 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:50:16 I don't actually know much about C++ OOP implementation. 07:50:23 I can tell, yes. 07:50:32 I'm just parroting the opinion of the guy at my gym :p 07:50:52 Lone_Wanderer: You should be careful when listening to guys who go to gyms. 07:51:12 I didn't think he was right but I didn't want to be all "No you've got it all wrong" 'cause 1. We'd just barely met and 2. I was only 99% sure he was wrong. 07:51:19 Well, I was there myself, so.... 07:51:27 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 07:52:16 Lone_Wanderer: In C++, (again, I am simplifying) obj.method(arg, arg) is essentially equivalent to obj.method_table[method_number](obj, arg, ...) 07:52:50 multiple inheritance complicates things a bit. 07:53:57 beach: that's where multiple-value-bind comes in :) 07:54:34 slyrus_: you are confused :) 07:54:47 no, just making a bad joke :) 07:54:48 I appreciate your explaining it to me, beach, but honestly my interest in the implementation details of C++'s object system is almost zero so... I hope you don't mind if I don't try to understand =\ 07:55:13 well, perhaps I'm confused to, just not about this... 07:55:19 s/to/too/ 07:55:27 I would put money on you being confused about *something*. 07:55:35 Lone_Wanderer: Now, it is POSSIBLE that the guy at the gym was talking about "lets around closures", a method [sic] used in SICP to implement message-passing-style object orientation, but CLOS is not that type of OO so it wouldn't work. 07:56:10 Even if it's the finer points of quantum physics, or perhaps which dialect the people on a particular Pacific island spoke in the 8th century AD. 07:56:21 jan247_ [n=jan247@124.6.185.27] has joined #lisp 07:57:40 beach: He was on chapter 10 or so of Practical Common Lisp, and he was openly speculating about the nature of OOP in Lisp, so I kind of doubt that's what he meant. 07:57:47 Lone_Wanderer: now you're confusing confusion with ignorance, but ok... 07:58:11 Are you sure I am confusing them? 07:58:38 NantoRokuseiken [n=nan@87-146-254.netrun.cytanet.com.cy] has joined #lisp 07:58:49 Oh, yes, but I'm assuming that if you are confused about one of these things, that you know a little something about them in the first place. 07:59:05 They're really meant to serve as examples of things outside of programming that one might be confused about. 08:02:43 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:04:24 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@cpe-69-204-149-14.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:04:48 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@124.6.185.27] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:05:41 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 08:06:26 -!- NantoRokuseiken [n=nan@87-146-254.netrun.cytanet.com.cy] has quit [] 08:09:46 amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 08:18:12 hrk [n=hrk@acurwa002124.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:18:12 good morning. 08:18:40 hello tic 08:18:47 hey tic 08:19:08 Lone_Wanderer, hey. did you per chance read my horrid text on "OO" and Lisp? it almost sounds like that. 08:19:11 hey beach. 08:20:22 tic: I didn't know you had written such a text. What is the target audience? 08:20:22 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 08:20:27 I did not in fact read it. 08:21:00 Sausage [i=sausage@tehsausage.com] has joined #lisp 08:21:22 Lone_Wanderer, nobody ;) C++ coders. 08:21:28 oops, s/lone_w/beach 08:22:09 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:13 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 08:23:22 beach, http://mikael.jansson.be/log/newbie-guide-to-lisp-oo 08:24:22 (the CLOS part is really lame, though. "CLOS at light speed" or whatever the title of that other intro text is so much better. I'm keeping my text around anyway, and hope it doesn't delusion too many) 08:35:25 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 08:37:08 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:37:13 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.133.84] has joined #lisp 08:37:34 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.133.84] has quit [Client Quit] 08:37:50 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.133.84] has joined #lisp 08:38:37 night all, thanks for the link tic 08:40:05 Good night Lone_Wanderer 08:40:06 night 08:40:08 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.252.58] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:40:28 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 08:40:30 tic: That text is not bad. 08:40:39 beach, thanks for the kind words. 08:41:00 The problem, though, is that most people don't want to hear that their favorite programming language is not the best one. 08:41:45 -!- Lone_Wanderer [n=Dan@c-67-169-246-153.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:41:46 Yeah, you've said so before. But I find it hard to demonstrate features of Lisp without comparing them to something in another language people do know. 08:42:11 and then, some features are conceptually a bit hard to grasp. slap Lisp syntax on top of that, and people just shrug. :-) 08:42:24 tic: I know, and this is why there are still people and companies using inferior languages. 08:42:43 yup. 08:42:51 i have a lisssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssp 08:44:12 brnhck [n=hrk@acurwa002124.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:44:33 Bacta: Wow! First time we hear *that* joke! 08:45:48 yes, the number of #\s varies every time(: 08:46:24 Yeah, in 2006-06-20 thre were some 60 of them. 08:48:02 Bacta: As I have said before, you are a disgrace to your very nice country. 08:48:58 And your country blew up our Rainbow Warrior! 08:49:22 Bacta: Sorry, you got that wrong. I am not a French citizen. 08:55:10 -!- spec[away] [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:55:33 -!- brnhck [n=hrk@acurwa002124.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 08:58:06 angerman [n=angerman@p57A39811.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:03:18 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:04:16 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 09:04:44 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest19953 09:04:59 Is there any way to do something like this: (remove-if-not (and #'alpha-char-p line #\space line) 09:05:28 you'd need a lazy AND. 09:05:48 lat: you can pass an anonymous function to remove-if-not, by using lambda 09:06:13 lat: what is `line'? 09:07:27 beach, line is a string obtained by read-line. 09:07:40 I'm guessing "implicit parameter pased to AND", and that there's two () missing. 09:08:01 lat: You can't use alpha-char-p on a string. What is it you are trying to do? 09:10:35 -!- hrk [n=hrk@acurwa002124.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Riece/5.0.0 Emacs/22.3 (darwin)"] 09:11:26 beach, (loop for line = (read-line *sf* nil nil) What does that put into line? 09:11:54 lat: a string consisting of all the characters of each line of text. 09:12:02 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:12:23 lat: but a string is not a character, and alpha-char-p checks whether a single character is alphabetic, so you cannot use it on line. 09:12:46 lat: Oh, sorry, you are using it on characters. 09:12:50 netfrog [n=gaim@line106-24.adsl.actcom.co.il] has joined #lisp 09:13:05 lat: So you want to remove alphabetic characters and spaces? 09:13:22 I'm just testing limits, trying to learn. 09:13:23 -!- Guest19953 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 09:13:53 beach, everything but. 09:14:03 lat: Sure, but in order for us to be able to show you, you must give us the spec. "something like this" is not very precise. 09:14:22 -!- netfrog [n=gaim@line106-24.adsl.actcom.co.il] has left #lisp 09:14:47 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 09:15:00 lat: (remove-if-not (lambda (char) (or (alpha-char-p char) (eql char #\Space))) line) 09:15:16 (untested) 09:18:11 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:26:12 beach, that isn't working. 09:27:32 lat: Yes it is. Just tested it! :) 09:28:32 lat: Perhaps you think that "remove-if-not" side-effects the line? It doesn't. You have to use the return value of the call. 09:29:38 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:30:02 Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 09:32:59 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.241.194] has joined #lisp 09:35:47 What is the paste-bin url? 09:37:05 Nevermind. 09:38:21 angerman_ [n=angerman@p57A39422.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:39:00 lat pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85429 09:40:03 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:07 angerman__ [n=angerman@p57A39410.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:40:39 beach, please see the above paste; I'm probably using it wrong. 09:43:30 -!- mouflon [i=skajohan@Psilocybe.Update.UU.SE] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:43:38 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslgd006.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 09:44:10 mohamehg_ [n=hashim@41.223.200.64] has joined #lisp 09:44:24 hi 09:44:34 -!- Belaf [n=campedel@net-93-144-246-124.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:45:11 hi all 09:45:28 cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 09:45:51 -!- dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:46:21 any one can help with integrating slime with emacs 22 09:46:22 ? 09:47:17 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:48:10 mohamehg_: have you tried the manual? There's no problem using slime with emacs 22... 09:48:49 -!- _stern_ is now known as seelwnquell 09:49:03 -!- seelwnquell is now known as seelenquell 09:49:16 pjb : I'm facing the following problem 09:49:22 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 09:50:07 Symbol's value as variable is void : slime-repl-mode-map 09:50:51 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.84] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:51:03 pjb :Symbol's value as variable is void : slime-repl-mode-map 09:51:28 I've got this variable. Perhaps there's a problem of version. Do you have the latest slime? Did you delete the old .elc? 09:52:09 pjb : no , actually I'm totally new to lisp 09:52:15 mohamehg_: What did you put into your .emacs? 09:52:45 it wasn't there so I created a new file and here are the contents 09:53:11 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 09:53:26 svens [n=svens@87.76.115.214] has joined #lisp 09:54:22 (add-to-list 'load-path "/home/hashim/lens/SBCL/SLIME/slime-2009-05-23/slime-1.2") ; 09:54:23 (setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/local/bin") ; 09:54:23 (require 'slime) 09:54:23 (slime-setup) 09:54:36 Sounds good. 09:54:41 slime-1.2? 09:54:47 But slime-1.2 is really old. 09:55:06 is it a compatibility problem ?? 09:55:16 Yes, as I said, a problem of version. 09:55:28 so what do you suggest ?? 09:55:33 -!- svens [n=svens@87.76.115.214] has left #lisp 09:55:36 mohamehg_: What is that slime-1.2 directory? How did you obtain it? 09:55:36 As I said, fetch the latest version. 09:56:02 mohamehg_: Remove the slime-2009-05-23 directory recursively, and check out anew from cvs 09:56:04 I installed is using apt install 09:56:11 Not a good idea. 09:56:17 Distributions are always late. 09:56:28 As I said, read the manual: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Downloading.html 09:56:28 mohamehg_: You manually installed a .deb? 09:56:45 no I didn't install a .deb 09:56:49 pjb: That manual is outdated; do not refer it to people. Refer to the doc/ directory in the slime checkout 09:56:51 *pjb* ain't a THE pedagogue today? 09:57:31 mohamehg_: Anyway, purge any slime and cl-swank package you have installed. 09:57:37 tcr: really? They don't put on the web the doc directory from the slime checkout? 09:58:05 It says it's version 3.0 beta. 09:58:09 ok , will purge but how to do that , as I said I'm new to unix and lisp 09:58:35 apt-get uninstall slime # IIRC. 09:58:41 -!- angerman_ [n=angerman@p57A39422.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 09:59:27 mohamehg_: What distribution do you use? 09:59:49 I use ubuntu 10:00:17 mohamehg_: On the bar above, System -> Administration -> Synaptic Package Manager 10:00:27 -!- angerman [n=angerman@p57A39811.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:00:51 Then search first for slime, and click on complete removal on the package, then search for swank, and do the same, then click on Apply 10:01:11 ok will do and feed back , thanks tcr and pjb 10:01:46 mohamehg_: After that checkout from cvs; it's explained how on the slime website. 10:02:08 mohamehg_: Then I'll tell you what to put into your .emacs. 10:04:09 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:04:20 -!- daniel___ is now known as daniel 10:04:32 loxs [n=loxs@82.119.85.174] has joined #lisp 10:05:15 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.35.90] has joined #lisp 10:05:50 asksol- [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 10:07:01 tcr : I've found slime but no swank in the list 10:07:52 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.142.59] has joined #lisp 10:08:14 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:05 danlei [n=user@pD954FD45.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:16 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p3138-ipngn1401marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:12:01 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.142.59] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:12:52 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.72.177] has joined #lisp 10:12:56 AFAIK, swank is inside slime. They come together. 10:13:38 -!- jan247_ [n=jan247@124.6.185.27] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:13:53 ok , now I've removed slime 10:18:30 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 10:19:16 dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 10:20:18 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:22:13 -!- asksol [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:23:02 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has left #lisp 10:23:06 antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:15 xinming__ [n=hyy@125.109.73.151] has joined #lisp 10:23:30 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.72.177] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:24:07 svens [n=svens@87.76.115.214] has joined #lisp 10:24:32 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.241.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:30:46 Looks like beach must be away from his desk. Would someone else please examine my paste, and tell me what I have done wrong (I think I have misused the lamda function beach made for me)? 10:31:49 lat pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85429 10:32:16 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-8352.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 10:32:22 I am here 10:33:19 beach, oh, good. :) 10:33:50 I don't see any problems with it. 10:33:56 What's the error? 10:34:10 No 10:34:51 No error. It just doesn't print anything. 10:34:59 Oh? 10:35:38 -!- xinming__ is now known as xinming 10:36:17 -!- svens [n=svens@87.76.115.214] has left #lisp 10:36:52 Works for me. 10:37:17 lat: It doesn't print anything in *dest-file* of course. 10:37:37 (since you do a (format t ...) rather than (format *dest-file* ...)) 10:40:55 beach, I had to exit and restart emacs and slime, and then it worked. Many thanks! 10:42:00 No problem. 10:43:27 What is happening that makes it necessary to restart emacs? 10:43:53 it really shouldn't be 10:45:39 Is there any danger to upgrading to emacs 23? Will slime still work if I do? 10:45:54 demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-197-035.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:40 lat: i am happily using emacs 23 from cvs 10:46:46 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 10:49:14 Xach, great! I'll give it a try then. I need the improved unicode support. 10:52:52 Well, this has been a fun and profitable experience. I don't want to stop, but I must. Thanks to everyone who has helped. Special thanks to beach! Lisp is exciting! 10:56:13 logBot1288 [n=logBot@59.92.136.66] has joined #lisp 10:59:04 wasabi_____ [n=wasabi@nttkyo434120.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:02:17 c|mell [n=cmell@y192003.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:03:00 benny [n=benny@i577A1755.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:03:12 lat: Sure, no problem! Good luck! 11:03:38 *beach* is of course secretly hoping that lat is going to become a McCLIM maintainer at some point :) 11:05:06 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ipmwcwnjozjdjiiq] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:05:12 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:05:19 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-npfzwsheklvxgruz] has joined #lisp 11:05:20 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-npfzwsheklvxgruz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:05:38 funny you should say that, I just dug out the McCLIM user's guide. 11:05:41 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 11:06:00 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-aohvvvbqgglanxhm] has joined #lisp 11:06:32 febeling_ [n=febeling@g225098181.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:08:43 -!- febeling_ [n=febeling@g225098181.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 11:09:51 neomage [n=abc@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:14 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B4E73.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:24 Hi, I'm having some trouble with derived indexes with Elephant. http://paste.lisp.org/display/85431 11:11:36 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:17:36 frito [n=keithman@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 11:17:55 -!- logBot1288 [n=logBot@59.92.136.66] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:18:21 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 11:18:56 Frito_ [n=keithman@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 11:19:10 -!- frito [n=keithman@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:19:20 -!- Frito_ [n=keithman@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:20:20 frito [n=keithman@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 11:21:05 beach, lat hasn't been able to get McCLIM to work, but is not discouraged. Will McCLIM work with unicode? lat will probably be back soon with more questions. 11:21:27 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:14 -!- lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:29:51 minion: memo for lat: McCLIM works well with Unicode if you use the mcclim-truetype extension. Then you can do things like this: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/app.png 11:29:52 Remembered. I'll tell lat when he/she/it next speaks. 11:42:55 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-84.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:45:59 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32BBE4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:46:25 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@y192003.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:48:50 good bye and thanks everyone 11:49:00 -!- mohamehg_ [n=hashim@41.223.200.64] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:51:25 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 11:51:27 hello 11:51:35 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 11:51:36 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 11:54:33 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-197-035.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 11:58:07 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16AE85.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:58:50 mouflon [i=skajohan@Psilocybe.Update.UU.SE] has joined #lisp 11:59:40 scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 11:59:45 azuk` [i=azure@s2.org] has joined #lisp 12:01:41 -!- sykopomp 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[n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 13:09:35 -!- register is now known as Guest58569 13:10:02 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 13:12:44 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:20 demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-197-035.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:39 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-197-035.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:18:47 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 13:19:59 mau [n=mau@151.59.13.82] has joined #lisp 13:20:19 angerman [n=angerman@p57A3C0FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:20:40 coderdad [n=coderdad@pool-68-238-152-246.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:41 Hello. I'm reading a source in lispkit and I don't understand why I have to use QUOTE in expressions like "(ADD n (QUOTE 11))" (instead of "(ADD n 11)"). What concept am I missing? Is this specific of lispkit or a general lisp feature? 13:24:51 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:24:51 -!- Guest58569 is now known as Symmetry- 13:26:21 fgtech [n=federico@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:27:00 mau, you're not missing anything 13:27:07 11 === '11 13:27:23 all non-list non-symbols evaluate to themselves 13:28:07 which doesn't mean that a form *can't* evaluate to itself 13:28:15 unless ADD is a macro, no? 13:28:28 So if I remove the QUOTE the example should compile and work correctly, I guess. I'm using an example compiler and the code is in an example input for the compiler. 13:28:40 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has quit ["Caught sigterm, terminating..."] 13:28:44 in which case (QUOTE 11) is passed as is, not evaluated 13:28:55 1 sec. I'll try and remove QUOTE 13:28:58 though it's bad practice for macros to care about such details 13:29:30 This is the complete source of the program: (LAMBDA (n) (ADD n (QUOTE 5))) 13:30:01 there's some bug in SLIME+SBCL, sometimes it says "error in timer" at startup and i have to restart *inferior-lisp* 13:30:17 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslen238.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:30:25 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:38 we're mainly interested in common lisp on this channel, but i guess asking about toy compilers is ok too 13:30:46 weirdo: it happens to me almost everytime i update swank and the latter has to be recompiled at startup 13:31:26 yeah, but i recompile swank in ~/.sbclrc 13:32:08 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:32:15 antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:17 ah, i do that in .swank.lisp 13:32:57 -!- Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@95.84.1.99] has left #lisp 13:33:23 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:34:07 No. Something goes wrong. I get no errors but the resulting AST is null and this can be caused by a number of different reason. Maybe this use of QUOTE is something specific of lispkit. 13:34:18 Thanks for the help! 13:34:19 serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-180-231.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:34:26 greetings 13:34:32 angerman_ [n=angerman@p57A3A210.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:34:47 -!- loxs [n=loxs@82.119.85.174] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:35:01 mau: i would check the definition of ADD to see what's going on. 13:35:22 -!- proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:35:45 -!- angerman__ [n=angerman@p57A39410.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:36:37 jao, sure. I going to inspect the compilation process. Thanks again 13:37:03 -!- mau [n=mau@151.59.13.82] has left #lisp 13:37:25 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:39:10 angerman__ [n=angerman@p57A3BE64.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:39:18 fgtech [n=federico@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:42:14 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B4E73.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:42:51 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:44:25 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:50:04 -!- angerman [n=angerman@p57A3C0FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:50:28 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:58 mgm [n=max@p84-72.acedsl.com] has joined #lisp 13:51:01 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:53:03 CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 13:53:58 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.182.237] has joined #lisp 13:53:59 -!- angerman_ [n=angerman@p57A3A210.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:05:33 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 14:06:35 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:08:29 'morning 14:09:15 fgtech [n=quassel@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:09:27 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Client Quit] 14:11:01 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@pool-68-238-152-246.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:13:16 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 14:15:18 _jason2901 [n=thot@203.73.249.80] has joined #lisp 14:15:35 -!- fgtech [n=quassel@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:18:26 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 14:18:29 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:18:33 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 14:19:20 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:10 Nshag [n=shag@Mix-Orleans-106-3-44.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:22:05 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:59 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:31 coderdad [n=coderdad@pool-68-238-152-246.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:13 afternoon 14:34:15 fgtech [n=Federico@79.0.203.170] has joined #lisp 14:37:58 -!- fgtech [n=Federico@79.0.203.170] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:38:15 fgtech [n=federico@79.0.203.170] has joined #lisp 14:39:07 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:40:57 -!- fgtech [n=federico@79.0.203.170] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:42:24 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@pool-68-238-152-246.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:44:30 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 14:44:49 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-103-117.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:47:09 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has left #lisp 14:47:13 antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:21 -!- sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-103-117.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:49:21 -!- vy [n=user@nbvyazici.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:52:05 tvl [n=tachim@cldmz-nat-12-108-127-191.pittsburgh.intel-research.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:53 fgtech [n=federico@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:57:03 how do i delete the completion buffer in slime? 14:57:11 i generally want it to happen when i press space or return 14:57:33 weirdo: I'm used to having to navigate to it and delete it manually 14:57:51 *p_l* remembers that he needs a better navigation method than C-x o 14:58:42 weirdo: I use #'winner-undo 15:00:09 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-37.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:00:38 p_l: I use M-1, M-2, ... 15:00:42 -!- _jason2901 [n=thot@203.73.249.80] has quit [Client Quit] 15:01:21 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.137.224] has joined #lisp 15:01:30 dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #lisp 15:03:35 p_l: it's wn-mode.el. Oddly enough, if you google for "wn-mode.el" the first hit is my .emacs, heh. 15:03:48 weirdo pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85438 15:04:08 weirdo annotated #85438 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85438#1 15:04:54 (define-key lisp-mode-map "SPC" 'my-slime-space) 15:05:11 -!- vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:05:32 vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 15:07:40 finally 15:07:45 i was so tired of this 15:08:11 Dodek [n=opera@wikipedia/Dodek] has joined #lisp 15:13:02 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:13:23 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-8352.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:13:42 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 15:17:20 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:17:25 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:18:47 weirdo annotated #85438 "this version is OK" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85438#2 15:18:59 p_l, yo check this out 15:20:00 clhs eval-when 15:20:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_eval_w.htm 15:23:53 demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-197-035.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:45 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:08 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-103-117.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:30:09 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:31:36 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 15:32:07 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:32:08 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 15:33:46 -!- angerman__ [n=angerman@p57A3BE64.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 15:35:09 http://foobiebletch.wordpress.com/2009/08/15/23/ 15:35:15 hmm someone blog about it to planet lisp 15:37:04 completion buffer goes away here by default 15:37:38 either when i press space or finish completion manually 15:37:53 not for me if i don't complete the token but finish it manually 15:38:04 and it doesn't go away with RET 15:42:44 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 15:45:14 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:53:45 amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 15:57:11 weirdo: fuzzy completion automatically selects when pressing space 15:57:51 letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has joined #lisp 16:00:51 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-208-127-247-82.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:03:01 tcr, i'm using c-p-s 16:04:05 -!- morganb [n=user@76.109.10.14] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:04:23 morganb [n=user@76.109.10.14] 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[n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:55 hey, beach. 18:07:23 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.137.224] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:07:30 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.137.224] has joined #lisp 18:08:22 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.137.224] has quit [Success] 18:08:32 kmels [n=kmels@190.148.137.224] has joined #lisp 18:09:04 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 18:13:09 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:55 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host170-203-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:17:57 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B4E73.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:50 clhs 11.1.2.1.2 18:18:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm 18:19:45 pdenno [i=d03a0ad6@gateway/web/freenode/x-enuvlwuaocwrxshk] has joined #lisp 18:27:35 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 18:28:02 -!- mgm 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[n=hashim@41.223.200.78] has joined #lisp 18:37:43 -!- mohamehg [n=hashim@41.223.200.78] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:38:12 mohamehg [n=hashim@41.223.200.78] has joined #lisp 18:38:24 pdenno1 [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:39:19 -!- mohamehg [n=hashim@41.223.200.78] has quit [Client Quit] 18:40:02 anybody here happen to be from south carolina? 18:42:49 -!- serichsen [n=harleqin@xdsl-81-173-180-231.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:42:59 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-84.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:44:05 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1CC2B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:17 has anyone ever tried expressing extra info such as comments and line numbers in sexps? Possibly in a way that maintains compatibility with ordinary sexps? 18:45:25 I'd be interested to see any kind of prior work 18:46:28 Use an EQ hash-table instead 18:46:42 But if you want to see it done properly look at (plt) scheme's syntax-objects 18:46:57 mathrick: that's the strongest reason why it's a bad idea to use sexps to represent program code 18:47:27 tcr: please elaborate, re: hash table? 18:48:00 mathrick: you can associate info to sexps using an hashtable. 18:48:04 What's to elaborate there? If you can rely on the identity of your s-expressions, use an EQ hash-table 18:48:16 attila_lendvai: yeah, but it'd be nice to be able to augment them in a way that doesn't break old stuff 18:48:22 tcr, luis: ah 18:48:45 but that's sort of arbitrary, how do you decide which sexp the comment belongs to? 18:49:07 well, i'm not really one of those who is reluctant to break old stuff when it makes sense... :) 18:49:15 yeah, I've noticed :) 18:49:37 but one nice property of sexps is that they're insanely easy to manipulate 18:49:45 mathrick: You turn comments into (comment ...) s-expressions, then filter them out again by walking (you have to walk anyway to set up the hash-table), and you look where (comment ...) appears 18:49:48 more elaborate representations tend to be harder 18:49:53 that's a question of API, not representation 18:50:08 attila_lendvai: I'm not sure about that. 18:50:40 attila_lendvai: not really, more complex objects will have more complex APIs 18:50:40 *attila_lendvai* was working on such stuff at intentsoft for years 18:50:49 oooh, do share 18:50:53 if you can, that is 18:51:40 mathrick: only if you dig in the complexity of the structure. if your needs are shallow as sexps allow, then a more complex representation behind a simple api is not any harder to deal with 18:51:41 register [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 18:52:09 -!- register is now known as Guest21855 18:52:21 attila_lendvai: http://intentsoft.com/ ? 18:52:34 attila_lendvai: I think the devil is in the details, really. The scheme people did it. I can't say I looked at it closely, but there seems to be a little bit of cognitive overhead. 18:52:37 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 18:53:04 mathrick: yes 18:53:14 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-78-106.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:53:22 And that's understandable. Because if your macros frob s-exprs, does the resulting s-expr come from the user's source, or does it belong to the macro expansion? 18:54:00 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:05 (The syntax object should probably save source information, as well as an expansion level) 18:54:09 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:54:19 yeah, it needs solving 18:54:35 It's done. Look at PLT. 18:54:54 tcr: it simple _as long_ as you stick to the simple features currently available. of course once you start using the huge flexibility the easy annotation provides to implement features, you can end up with complex stuff... 18:55:05 tcr: sure, but it still needs some porting to the CL world 18:55:21 How was what I was refering to in any way complex? That's fundamental. 18:56:04 still, that's one of the things I realise more and more are needed, along with a sane non-interning reader and delimited reader macros 18:56:13 i started writing that before your last remark. but that kind of complexity is orthogonal to the representation... 18:56:21 mathrick: I don't think it's going to be. Lisp does get thing right, just right enough while still practically fun; the scheme people get things really right 18:57:05 I'd really like to sit down for a couple of days and think it all through together with a draft implementation 18:57:21 mathrick: levy is using/extending pjb's reader stuff in similar directions you are talking about (btw, he is also a former intentsoft guy) 18:57:32 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:57:46 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-227-231.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:00 tcr: well, it mostly comes from me bumping into the limitations of the mostly right approach we have today. I need something a bit more righter 18:58:31 Won't the way I described be good enough? 18:58:32 information like comments and source origins would really aid tremendously in complex transforming macros such as CPS transformers 18:58:52 tcr: I never said it wouldn't, it needs more thinking before I can tell either way 18:58:59 we are also planning to extend cl-walker to be able to work on the output of pjb's CL reader 18:59:18 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:59:21 attila_lendvai: right, that was one of my ideas, to start with pjb's stuff and go further 18:59:33 attila_lendvai: have you looked at macroexpand-dammit? 18:59:47 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:59:55 mathrick: CPS conversion completely breaks the structure of the input; the information wouldn't make any sense, except for completely untransformed sections. 18:59:55 mathrick: Perhaps you rather want first-class source-locations 19:00:29 tcr: and what is the difference? 19:00:32 macrocat [n=macrocat@hlfxns0187w-142177046143.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:46 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:48 pkhuong: depends, if you get division by zero, you can still trace it to the original source line 19:00:54 mathrick: The latter is something your implementation should provide 19:01:06 mathrick: very briefly. but it did not sell itself with portability as the main feature 19:01:11 And SBCL does, in a limited form. 19:01:34 the most frustrating bit in CPS is that you lose all info, whether it comes from the original source or from the CPS bits 19:01:37 -!- Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:01:37 -!- Guest21855 is now known as Symmetry- 19:01:56 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16AE85.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:02:06 Yes, welcome to Lisp. You won't be able to get that completely right. 19:02:08 attila_lendvai: what I really like about it is that it gets all the symbol macro(let)s right, which is not common 19:02:26 What is 'pjb's reader? 19:02:34 tcr: I know, and I'm not trying to, but getting it a bit righter would be really good 19:02:53 pdenno1: it's just a portable CL:READ 19:03:07 tcr: we have the benefit of another 20 years with CL, we can take a few steps forward :) 19:03:25 demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-197-035.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:44 mathrick: CL will not make any steps forward... something may pass by it, but it won't make any steps... 19:04:21 lies, it might not have an ANSI stamp on it, but that doesn't mean CL has to stand still 19:04:22 tcr, could you make the compiler notes buffer disappear if there are no more notes after compiling again? 19:04:43 mathrick: i didn't say that it has to. i said that it will... 19:04:59 Yes I could, yes I was somewhat annoyed by that, too, but no I won't do it, weirdo 19:05:06 -!- macrocat [n=macrocat@hlfxns0187w-142177046143.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has left #lisp 19:05:14 weirdo: The reason that people may want to use a sticky buffer. 19:05:18 +is 19:05:36 weirdo: You should send the request to the mailing list, perhaps someone has an idea. I haven't thought about it. 19:05:53 mathrick: I think you're trying to fix this on the wrong level. You should really go into an implementation. 19:06:24 what do i have to do to make a non-toplevel DEFUN work without it barfing "undefined function" in the same compilation unit? 19:06:32 tcr: "into an implementation"? 19:06:39 mathrick: There's already sb-c:source-location; now it would be nice if there was some special-form (this-comes-from ) which would somehow result in Slime doing the right thing with `v' in the debugger 19:06:41 write a FTYPE declaration? 19:06:47 but to do so i have to parse lambda-lists :( 19:07:58 tcr: yes, but that needs to be portable too 19:08:07 weirdo: (declaim (ftype t foo)) ? 19:08:21 tcr, thank you! 19:08:21 iirc, that doesn't help 19:08:34 then what does? 19:08:43 weirdo: I'm not sure that's allowed, or will work. I'm not even sure I understood your problem :) 19:08:46 tcr, but there could be a customizable setting for the sticky thing 19:09:03 mathrick: why? Working unportable code is much more useful than portably unexistent code. 19:09:08 tcr, i have to declare a non-toplevel function 19:09:18 and if i do, in the same compilation unit it will barf it's undefined 19:09:22 since it's not toplevel 19:09:33 tcr: the compiler only knows something is a function if it's evaled at :compile-toplevel 19:09:57 is it the only way? 19:10:11 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:10:12 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:12 pkhuong: but even better is portable code that is then folded into implementations, a'la PCL 19:10:14 tcr: (declaim (ftype function foo)) at least ;) 19:10:32 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32BBE4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:42 details! 19:10:45 hmm but i'll make an proper ftype so it'll barf when it's called with wrong number of arguments 19:10:56 weirdo: some compilers deal with this in different ways though -- I've had code which compiled without any warnings or style warnings on some CL, and then when I ran it on SBCL it not just threw about 70 warnings but also threw errors. 19:10:56 s/ an / a / 19:10:57 mathrick: portability is often just another instance of big design up front. 19:11:06 (this was needless to say a problem with my code, not SBCL...) 19:11:17 mathrick: It's unlikely to happen. 19:11:27 some degree of differences between implementation is healthy and good. But if at some point you have fundamental problems/shortcomings all fixed differently in every implementation, you no longer have a single language 19:11:33 *implementations 19:12:02 coderdad [n=coderdad@pool-68-238-152-246.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:02 Progress is made by improving existing Common Lisp implementations. It's enough kludges on the top. 19:12:05 Note how PCL can't actually run on arbitrary CLs, but is slightly modified for each implementation it supports. Portable: may be ported. 19:12:37 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@pool-68-238-152-246.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:12:42 pkhuong: design up front or a useful probe to see how much is needed from the implementation and what is just a small matter of programming 19:12:44 coderdad [n=coderdad@pool-68-238-152-246.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:45 yes, exactly 19:12:55 PCL is a very good model 19:13:34 So, you start with a reasonably unportable *working* implementation and then figure out what to do for the future. 19:13:48 mathrick: Let's say you have your source information attached to some expansion. How will you make use of it? 19:14:25 What you will end up is just replicating stuff that's already done for you in SBCL, but not comming up with anything new. 19:14:39 tcr: I will make gettext message catalogs with the source lines included a'la C gettext 19:15:04 *Adlai* rejoices that there's a bit more time to register for ECLM 19:15:23 weirdo pasted "are there any more possible syntaxes for regular functions?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85448 19:15:25 -!- alec [n=alec@pool-96-237-1-49.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 19:15:54 lde [n=nnnnuser@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 19:16:08 weirdo: do you allow other keys? 19:16:13 Adlai: did they extend registration period or what? 19:16:25 *p_l* thinks he won't make it 19:16:48 weirdo: &aux with no initial value 19:16:59 p_l: yeah. The homepage still says that the deadline is the 15th aka over, but I mailed Edi and he said it's still open for 2 more days, and I'm registering right now. 19:17:09 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 19:17:25 mathrick: You can get that now already with SBCL. 19:17:42 Adlai: do we have to pay already with registration? 19:17:49 Also Allegro, I think. Possibly others. 19:18:22 minion: advice on portable 19:18:22 #12017: It doesn't need to be portable, it just needs to work on your system. 19:18:36 Adlai: scratch that, read it on webpage 19:18:38 p_l: The instructions on the main page suggest that no, you register and then pay separately, although you should pay "within a reasonable amount of time". 19:19:10 kpreid, thank you 19:19:12 Adlai, thank you 19:19:39 hmm.... I don't think I'll make it financially :/ 19:19:52 weirdo: np. I'm not sure how much info you can extract from an &aok, but you should at least not choke on one. 19:20:01 crap how do type specifiers for lambda-lists work? 19:20:02 (as in, get all the funds ready on time) 19:20:08 tcr: yes, of course, what you say is true, and to an extent it's perfectly fine for it to be unportable. But I want to get the PCL unportability, which means "everyone has it" and that it's relatively trivial to modify it to work on implementation X 19:20:11 p_l: lufthansa has cheap flights, and booking.com has cheap hotels. HTH. 19:20:16 weirdo: do you mean in method LLs? 19:20:37 Adlai, no, i mean in type specifiers like FTYPE or sbcl's %fun-type 19:20:58 clhs ftype 19:20:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_ftype.htm 19:21:04 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:05 otherwise you end up with things like portable hemlock which needed to be a separate project and a lot of pain to port away from CMUCL 19:21:07 Adlai, fortunately, i don't plan to extract much from &a-o-k 19:21:27 i need only variable names for arguments (so no &aux) and keywords 19:21:46 weirdo: well, &aok tells you that anything goes as a keyword argument. 19:21:51 mathrick: It's just not likely to going to be happen that an implementation will slurp in foreign code base. For a start because you'll replicate lots of already existing stuff. 19:21:58 luis: £159 is definitely more than I'm willing to pay, unfortunately 19:22:33 let's see without return ticket... 19:22:36 mathrick: The real way to go forward is to take your implementation of choice, hack something up, and show that it works. Now if you care about portability, look at one, or two other implementations and either do it for them to, or judge how they'd it differently. 19:22:51 mathrick: Then come up generalized scheme. 19:22:51 -!- legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-5-157.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:22:52 weirdo: this page in the CLHS has info about the 'function type specifier: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_fn.htm#function 19:22:52 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:22:54 tcr: that's one part of portability, "an interface that can be reasonably easily implemented using the existing internals" 19:23:16 argh! screw that. ftype also specifies whether function returns multiple values 19:23:17 but yes, what it really needs is me sitting down and just doing it 19:23:24 and i can't know that. well i can, but i won't use a code walker 19:23:31 since the code i'm writing is unrelated 19:23:41 weirdo: I don't think you -have- to specify that. 19:24:00 i don't? 19:24:27 "function [arg-typespec [value-typespec]]" means that the value typespec is optional and can only be specified if you also specify the arg typespec, which is optional too. 19:25:01 Adlai: You can use * to mean [anything] in type specifiers. 19:25:02 so you could have '(function (fixnum)) as a valid typespec for some simple function 19:25:03 weirdo: didn't (ftype function foo) do? 19:25:06 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-71-141.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:25:39 pkhuong: except for '(eql *) ... 19:26:15 tcr, i wanted to avoid suppressing warnings about wrong number of arguments 19:26:23 but i guess it's only ever seen when coding in the RPEL 19:26:28 when it won't be suppressed 19:26:40 otherwise the REPL gets spammed with compiler notes and no one bother to check it 19:26:58 weirdo: Uh I'd have expected such warnings 19:27:06 sorry I mean I would not have expected them 19:27:15 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:27:48 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:27:50 weirdo annotated #85448 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85448#1 19:27:57 guess this will have to do 19:28:41 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:29:50 *p_l* guesses that he is out of luck regarding ECLM 19:29:58 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:30:54 weirdo: do you need an eval-when around that? 19:31:20 Adlai, no 19:31:22 actually probably not, because the declaim counts as toplevel. 19:31:26 there's a DECLAIM already 19:31:37 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 19:33:30 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:58 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:34:35 p_l: oh, and there's ryanair, if you don't mind the airport being far. 19:35:49 luis: It would be possible if I had more financial margin or my own plane (I think I'd be able to pay for fuel costs) 19:37:48 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:18 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 19:38:51 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@pool-68-238-152-246.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:38:54 assuming I had IFR license :D 19:38:59 -!- |Trickster| [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:40:48 coderdad [n=coderdad@pool-68-238-152-246.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:43 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:43:10 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B4E73.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:50:03 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:55:11 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:55:28 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 19:58:49 mathrick: PCL is a different case. You want access to source information. _Every_ implementation has that in one form, or another, (It must because it's what it's supposed to do) 19:59:45 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@pool-68-238-152-246.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:01:21 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:01:27 Hi, I'm having some trouble with derived indexes with Elephant. http://paste.lisp.org/display/85431 20:01:38 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-50-176-174.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:03:31 tcr: right, but I also want a non-interning reader and delimited reader macros, so I'm stepping onto implementations' turf anyway 20:03:59 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:12 that's why I think a portable approach based on pjb's reader first and backporting it to SBCL is more better 20:04:25 -!- blandest [n=user@79.112.98.9] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:04:53 Ppjet6 [n=ppjet@ABordeaux-156-1-80-174.w90-5.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:05:12 Hopefully you'll not just end up with your own autistic world. 20:05:13 -!- gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 20:06:12 -!- Ppjet6 is now known as Pepe_ 20:09:30 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-8.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:33 -!- cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:12:45 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:07 lghtng [n=user@75.128.7.15] has joined #lisp 20:17:20 NoFeaR [n=Java@88.249.161.11] has joined #lisp 20:17:20 « Bilgisizler Arasında Bilgi Elde Etmeye çalışan, ölüler Arasındaki Diriye Benzer » NoFeaR ™ 20:18:03 I'm afraid I do not understand you 20:18:17 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:18:27 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:18:48 EBADLNG 20:19:02 angerman [n=angerman@p57A3AF5B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:21:21 # ? 20:21:40 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 20:21:42 (signal 'amusement) 20:22:04 haha 20:22:44 as for EBADLNG, I think I prefer note "unknown language", Plan9-style :) 20:22:56 Plan9? 20:23:02 minion: tell me about plan9 20:23:02 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``plan9''. 20:23:52 eh, that's a scary logo! 20:24:10 Adlai: Operating System that was supposed to replace Unix, from original UNIX authors 20:24:23 p_l: their logo reminds me of the quest for the holy grail. 20:24:27 and how glenda is scary? :D 20:24:30 ah, this way :D 20:24:41 -!- NoFeaR [n=Java@88.249.161.11] has quit ["(NoFeaR) For My ChanneL Guard"] 20:25:05 gfk [n=gfk@c-518d72d5.047-47-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:25:05 btw, bunny's name (Glenda) comes from another Ed Wood movie, Glen or Glenda :) 20:25:09 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 20:25:12 -!- gfk [n=gfk@c-518d72d5.047-47-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 20:25:17 p_l: does anybody actually use this? 20:25:46 hm, it's actually open source. interesting. 20:26:14 Adlai: I know of at least one company whose internal development system runs on Plan9, as well as it being used as embedded system in their merchandise 20:26:39 [Citation Needed] 20:26:44 Some lucent hardware ran a relative of Plan9, Inferno, as its OS 20:26:54 Adlai: the company that makes ATA-over-Ethernet stuff 20:27:08 For citations, look through 9fans archive 20:27:20 Interesting. 20:27:25 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-137-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 20:28:07 do any individuals use it though? ie, does it scale down to PC-level the way Linux does? 20:28:10 sadly, no one made a system named "gay niggers" (from outer space) 20:28:22 there's also Plan B, which is a set of apps that make some interesting changes (they are currently making another version of that, on Inferno) 20:28:45 Adlai: there are certainly individuals using it, though hardware support is definitely lacking 20:29:13 p_l: Is Inferno a  so to say  Plan9 distribution (with apps and such) or is it an entirely different system (albeit related)? 20:29:15 weirdo: was that the same director? 20:29:26 thus, QEMU, QEMU/KVM, 9vx and other virtualization solutions 20:29:56 antoszka: completely separate system, but they use the same 9p protocol for services and thus mesh well 20:30:13 p_l: mhm 20:30:16 rsynnott, no 20:30:32 antoszka: Inferno has a small kernel+VM (with JIT) in C, the rest is written in Limbo (the language that runs on the VM) 20:31:04 they were really going for the afterlife feel, eh? 20:31:07 Ah, right. Vaguely remember reading about that some time ago. 20:31:18 gfk [n=gfk@c-518d72d5.047-47-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:31:36 antoszka: it was used in some hardware from AT&T/Lucent, there was also a quite interesting AI system that was basically a "voice-operating AI secretary" 20:31:45 *voice-operated 20:31:52 -!- salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [] 20:32:29 p_l: I was applying for a job as a sound engineer for Lucent for localisng that AI secretary stuff. 20:33:20 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 20:33:35 antoszka: the voice recognition/generation stuff was written afaik in C, controlled over 9p by management code written in Limbo :-) 20:34:41 Perhaps. If I got that job I wouldn't had been in that side of things anyway :) 20:35:11 pity that it got scrapped in the end, iirc 20:36:11 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:00 -!- xan_ is now known as xan 20:40:39 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 20:41:46 I've been using adw-charting with SBCL 1.0.28 on OS X/PPC for a week or so. Pretty often it crashes SBCL with some sort of bad memory error message. Ring any bells for anyone? 20:42:01 (I'd upgrade to 1.0.30 but I couldn't get through the tests.) 20:43:00 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:43:09 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 20:43:23 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:43:37 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-103-117.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:47:20 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-84.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:48:42 gigamonkey: the memory errors i get on osx with sbcl usually involve threads 20:49:28 i don't think i've seen it crash otherwise, but i'm on intel 20:50:54 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@nmd.sbx05686.santaca.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:28 xristos: yeah. Well I don't have *that* problem. No threads. 20:51:42 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:52:08 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229141228.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:52:09 This will all become moot (for me) soon when I *finally* get a new 'puter. 20:54:58 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 20:55:27 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@ABordeaux-156-1-80-174.w90-5.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:55:37 -!- konr_ is now known as konr 20:56:13 gigamonkey: on sbcl-1.0.30/Linux/x86 the tests pass(but not on ccl) 20:57:21 Pepe_ [n=ppjet@ABordeaux-156-1-98-243.w90-5.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:57:41 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 20:58:09 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:59:15 gigamonkey: gengc has issues, that much is known. What they are isn't clear, though. 21:00:10 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.137.224] has left #lisp 21:00:22 According to the Hyperspec, delete is like remove, except that it may change the target sequence. Is there anything like that, but that *will* change the target sequence? 21:01:24 In particular, I'm holding onto a list of things in an object using CLOS. I want to change the list to be the same list minus an element. 21:02:56 elliotstern: sure, (setf (accessor clos) (delete ... (accessor clos))). 21:03:26 well, obviously, but that seems a little verbose 21:03:40 you could macroify it 21:03:56 That sounds like a good idea 21:05:17 elliotstern: http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/alexandria-devel/2007-September/000259.html 21:05:18 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:05:22 I've been writing this program to teach myself CL, so that's probably not a bad macro to sit down and teach myself to write macros with 21:05:31 elliotstern: See the example in the docstring 21:05:40 It's not trivial. 21:06:19 (That is, if you use CALLF provided in that email, it'll become trivial) 21:06:40 what kind of functions can ACL2 prove? can you give some examples? 21:07:01 can it prove numeric stuff? Dodek wrote a function that does a typically O(n) operation in O(1) 21:07:05 i wonder if it could prove it 21:07:20 what does it mean to "prove a function"? 21:07:30 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:07:49 tcr, prove that some condition always occurs, given some constraints 21:08:17 invariant or purity? 21:08:26 s/purity/referential transparency/ 21:08:28 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@ABordeaux-156-1-98-243.w90-5.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 21:09:50 weirdo: Theorem provers automate some steps for you but they won't in general go through a whole proof automatically 21:11:06 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:33 tcr: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoare_logic 21:11:38 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-4-53.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit ["..."] 21:12:29 So? 21:12:37 -!- serichse1 is now known as serichsen 21:13:04 So, proving a function, is proving that given the precondition of the function, executing the function will ensure the postcondition is true. 21:13:44 dto [n=user@cpe-24-31-141-95.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:16:31 Pepe_ [n=ppjet@ABordeaux-156-1-130-88.w90-5.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:16:39 -!- gfk [n=gfk@c-518d72d5.047-47-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["."] 21:17:32 BrianRice [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:37 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 21:20:25 -!- BrianRice` [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:22:21 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 21:25:06 antoni [n=user@46.Red-79-152-211.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:48 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:26:09 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2CED4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:09 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Client Quit] 21:27:52 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954FD45.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:27:56 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 21:28:38 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.182.237] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 21:38:41 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:39:20 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:40:26 Rajin_ [n=Rajin@c174119.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 21:41:12 sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:10 -!- dto [n=user@cpe-24-31-141-95.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:42:16 dto [n=user@cpe-24-31-141-95.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:42:30 -!- sctb is now known as sebell 21:43:03 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@ABordeaux-156-1-130-88.w90-5.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:43:13 Pepe_ [n=ppjet@ABordeaux-156-1-130-88.w90-5.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:45:17 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229141228.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 21:46:33 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:46:50 -!- dto [n=user@cpe-24-31-141-95.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:48:25 dto [n=user@cpe-24-31-141-95.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:49:35 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:51:34 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:40 -!- pdenno1 [n=pdenno@208-58-10-214.c3-0.gth-ubr2.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:56:38 -!- sebell is now known as sb-away 21:58:51 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:59:18 wow, there can be local setf-functions! 21:59:20 this is awesome! 22:01:42 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:02:18 -!- Rajin_ [n=Rajin@c174119.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:04:53 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@ABordeaux-156-1-130-88.w90-5.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:05:04 Pepe_ [n=ppjet@ABordeaux-156-1-130-88.w90-5.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:14:16 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:14:54 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 22:23:17 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-69-204-30-167.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:24:26 weirdo: you can flet them, can't you? 22:24:36 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslo101.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:25:04 weirdo: Now, combine a local setf-function with a local symbol-macro, and you get things that look like variables, but aren't. 22:26:08 nyef: do you have an example? 22:26:25 Umm... I might, but I'd have to hunt for it. 22:27:07 (symbol-macrolet (($foo ....)) (flet (((setf foo) (val) ...)) ...)) :) 22:27:11 -!- arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:27:12 err.. setf $foo 22:27:22 *p_l* considers reviving his old toy project, VN engine in CL 22:27:33 VN? 22:27:39 The basic idea is that setf expands symbol-macros, so you define local accessors for something (say, a debug parameter) and then symbol-macrolet the real names in... 22:27:46 weirdo: Visual Novel 22:28:45 drewc: Umm... No, it's (symbol-macrolet ((foo ($foo))) (flet (($foo () ...) ((setf $foo) (value) ...)) ... (setf foo ...))) 22:28:46 http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/hacks/sbcl/pretty-pretty-printer/pprint-tcr.lisp --- C-c C-k into running sbcl, then use sb-pretty:pprint-file on a .lisp file (make sure its code is in the image, though.) 22:28:53 -!- angerman [n=angerman@p57A3AF5B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 22:29:04 And tell me if you find anything that's pretty-printed too suboptimal. 22:29:19 wow erastostenes sieve rules 22:29:20 I think it's now pretty close to being almost humanly indented 22:29:26 and it was written 200 years BCE 22:29:38 that's truly awesome 22:29:56 nyef: ahh yes. I usually just use symbol-macros that expand to places. 22:30:03 coderdad [n=coderdad@pool-68-238-152-246.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:04 weirdo: yes, students' level has been going down since then. 22:30:13 pjb, well, calculus has been invented 22:30:20 drewc: Yeah, the point was to have a lexically-scoped place as well. 22:30:21 though i don't know what it is.. yet 22:30:28 See? Down. 22:31:11 *p_l* finds multiple sensible benchmarks for that game engine :3 22:31:26 (Did I say debug parameters were a use-case? My actual use-case when I figured this trick out was -error- parameters for those errors implemented via a trap instruction.) 22:32:48 tcr: Hrm. I get something about an undefined function SIMPLE-FUN-P, and a pile of unreachable code notes. 22:34:10 All the code notes have something to do with pprint-logical-block, it seems. 22:34:12 fsck array-dimension-limit 22:34:21 weirdo: What? 1023 not enough for you? 22:34:21 and i'm using bit arrays 22:34:30 1152921504606846973 22:34:42 (Oh, wait, that's array-total-size-limit, wasn't it?) 22:34:44 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:34:44 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:54 that's only =~ 10^18 22:35:12 and i want 2^300 22:35:21 ugh 22:35:23 10^300 22:35:40 2^300? Do you even have that many bits of address space? 22:36:00 i mean 2^1024 22:36:06 === 10^300 22:36:33 weirdo: can you address that much without special addressing method and segmented memory? 22:36:36 letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has joined #lisp 22:36:39 Pepe__ [n=ppjet@ABordeaux-156-1-60-61.w86-217.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:36:41 hmm. 22:36:58 weirdo: FYI, the largest VM space I had ever seen was 2^123 22:37:02 *2^128 22:37:02 weirdo: My point is that even some 64-bit CPUs can't address more than 2^48 or so. 22:37:11 i've got 2^64 * 8 bits, right? 22:37:28 or (2 * 8) ^ 64? 22:37:33 In a word... Not likely. 22:37:46 x86-64 has 2^47 octets of address space available for program 22:38:43 Note that you also need to account for possible overflow when calculating your index offset anyway. 22:38:48 I haven't read the docs closely enough, but you might at most change that to 2^63 if you get a custom-made cpu 22:38:56 (assuming x86-64 ISA) 22:39:32 If you -do- go to 2^63 for virtual addressing the page table cost would be murderous. 22:39:32 fe[nl]ix pasted "pprint-tcr strangeness" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85458 22:40:01 nyef: well, you might add additional page types for that 22:40:10 -!- sb-away is now known as sctb 22:40:15 like AMD's 1G pages 22:40:17 Sure. 4-gig PAE? 22:40:30 Or, even better, 1T pages? 22:41:06 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.182.237] has joined #lisp 22:41:29 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@pool-68-238-152-246.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:42:27 nyef: mmix can put all of the address space into one page, it seems 22:42:43 Yeah, well, mmix always was wierd. 22:42:45 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [] 22:42:49 Not as wierd as mix, but still. 22:43:56 ... according to docs, you can have 2^255 bytes in a page. No mind that such a page would be larger than 2^48 physical memory space.... 22:44:10 fe[nl]ix annotated #85458 "another one" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85458#1 22:44:57 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@ABordeaux-156-1-130-88.w90-5.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:45:51 weirdo: basically, if you want so many elements, you need a sparse, disk-backed array, maybe even cluster-wide one 22:46:51 coderdad [n=coderdad@pool-68-238-152-246.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:22 if that's for sieve of Eratosthenes, then you are going to filter it for another century 22:48:20 stassats: well, he might get a quantum co-processor faster :P 22:49:17 weirdo: And if it's a -dense- array, well... (What the heck are you hoping to accomplish with so many bits, anyway?) 22:50:46 even for 1G of ram Eratosthenes is already not so fast 22:52:23 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-137-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:52:23 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 22:53:49 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-103-117.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:55:16 nyef, i was testing whether my prime sieve was correct 22:55:22 it's the standard erastostenes sieve 22:55:31 and i typed (expt 2 1024) 22:55:39 and it blew up in my face 22:56:42 weirdo: your lisp can't evaluate that? 22:56:51 (expt 2 1024) => 179769313486231590772930519078902473361797697894230657273430081157732675805500963132708477322407536021120113879871393357658789768814416622492847430639474124377767893424865485276302219601246094119453082952085005768838150682342462881473913110540827237163350510684586298239947245938479716304835356329624224137216 22:57:08 Adlai: IHM (make-array (expt 2 1024) :element-type 'bit) 22:57:28 (spoiler: don't try this at home) 22:57:37 :) 22:57:53 well, with numbers this big you can actually try 22:58:36 hm, methinks there should be a value like bit-vector-size-limit 22:58:51 array-total-size-limit? 22:58:52 ie, similar to array-total-size-limit & co. 22:59:00 well, can't bit vectors be much larger? 22:59:14 I'd imagine a bit vector could be at least 8 times as large as array-total-size-limit 22:59:15 what's cheaper? bignums or floats? 22:59:23 ice-cream 22:59:38 ok! (coerce 42 'ice-cream) 22:59:42 weirdo: I'd imagine floats, or at least small floats. 22:59:48 *single floats 23:00:02 yeah single floats are better than doubles in lisp :( 23:00:14 Adlai: well, array-total-size-limit on sbcl will be too large even for bit vectors 23:00:37 Aren't single floats smaller than double floats in every language??? 23:01:09 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has left #lisp 23:01:09 you mean in every processor? 23:01:31 smaller or equal 23:01:44 same goes with short int, int, long 23:01:46 long long 23:01:49 well, I can't imagine how more complex/detailed data could be smaller. 23:01:55 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 23:02:30 but stassats I guess yeah, I meant processor. 23:04:12 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@nmd.sbx05686.santaca.wayport.net] has quit [] 23:09:28 ha, i've been wishing for this: http://emacs-fu.blogspot.com/2009/02/transparent-emacs.html 23:10:46 nyef: the unreachable code stuff is a bug in the note-block-deletion heuristic 23:11:15 why not a translucent terminal with text mode emacs :) 23:12:19 i've been doing that, too 23:12:39 it raises some issues, though, with karmic and gdm 23:12:49 er gpm 23:14:06 fe[nl]ix: Yes, there's no special code for handler-foo, yet. 23:16:29 tcr: I've also noticed that the functions' arglist is always printed on a new line. I find that a bit weird 23:16:45 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:39 Uhm that's not how it's done here. 23:20:05 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:11 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@pool-68-238-152-246.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:22:19 Does anyone remember nikodemus' work to coalesce error traps? 23:22:34 Did he post about that to the mailing list? 23:24:49 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-41.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 23:25:50 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-41.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 23:26:52 hadronzoo [n=user@ppp-70-251-121-9.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:55 -!- Pepe__ [n=ppjet@ABordeaux-156-1-60-61.w86-217.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:28:59 coderdad [n=coderdad@pool-68-238-152-246.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:42 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@pool-68-238-152-246.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:35:32 -!- lghtng [n=user@75.128.7.15] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:38:18 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-78-106.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:41:13 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 23:41:56 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-25-119-55.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:28 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:42:43 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483BA64.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:43:07 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-25-119-55.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:43:26 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-99-25-119-55.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:30 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:43:59 -!- frito [n=keithman@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:46:25 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:20 Jabberwockey [n=jens@82.113.121.86] has joined #lisp 23:51:52 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1CC2B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:52:40 gonzojive_ [n=red@c-76-102-6-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:26 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-197-035.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 23:54:14 qwez [i=d8c4a52f@gateway/web/freenode/x-irekfaxixfylpkfw] has joined #lisp 23:54:26 gonzojive__ [n=red@c-67-180-74-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:45 what's your opinion of lazy evaluation? 23:55:30 haskell produces very short code, but pointfree style has disadvantages too 23:55:49 CLAZY is fun on the other hand, allows one to mix lazy and eager evaluation 23:56:17 Hi! I'm trying to install StumpWM, a window manager that uses Common Lisp. When I try to install it on SBCL 1.0.22, it dies, telling me it can't find a variable called SB-IMPL::*AVAILABLE-BUFFERS*. Does anyone know what this is or how to fix it? I'm not intimately familiar with SBCL's internal variables, so I'm not sure where to go from here. 23:57:00 gonzojive___ [n=red@c-76-102-6-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:52 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@c-76-102-6-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]