00:00:23 if it doesn't do it for 1.0.30.x, that's cool 00:02:14 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:02:25 .46 here too 00:02:28 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:03:41 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 00:04:25 sb-vm::*free-tls-index* ==> 1310 00:04:29 anyone knows what this number means? 00:04:37 Yes. 00:04:40 Well, sortof. 00:04:49 I'm not sure what the base value required is, but... 00:04:57 It's an "encoded" fixnum. 00:05:07 ... Oh, wait, no it isn't. 00:05:09 i think it would be better to write garbage-collecting code in lisp so it would work on all platforms and hook it inside the asm routine when indices run out 00:05:24 Mixing it up with things like the stack limits. 00:05:29 It's an index. 00:06:31 -!- kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:06:37 Why do I have the feeling that this ends up with an array of weak pointers to the symbols with allocated TLS indices? 00:07:00 i'm not planning to do that 00:07:41 c|mell [n=cmell@x250012.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 00:07:48 Okay, the thing about *free-tls-index* is that it's a fixnum. It's also a byte index from the start of the TLS block^W^Wthread structure to the next TLS slot to be allocated. 00:08:17 How then do you know where to un-set the TLS slot for symbols? 00:08:34 (Byte index when not interpreted as a fixnum, sorry.) 00:09:00 get the address of the thread structure, apply an offset and do cffi^Wsb-alient:foreign-aref or somesuch 00:09:21 But the slot allocated for a symbol is stored as part of the symbol structure. 00:10:17 is it acceptable if i maintain a list of symbols with tls indices in the thread structure? 00:10:33 No, because it's global data, not per-thread dataq. 00:10:37 s/dataq/data/ 00:11:35 hmm, you said something about weak hash tables... 00:11:37 :-) 00:11:44 nah, i'm going to give up 00:12:31 The thing is, you need -some- tie into the GC either to track symbols that have TLS slots allocated becoming garbage or to track the ones that -aren't- garbage. 00:12:35 Almost preferably both. 00:14:05 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:15:00 why both? 00:17:02 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@e179125213.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 00:19:33 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:58 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:26:53 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.30] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:28:11 -!- Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:32:13 weirdo pasted "smart compiler macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85356 00:32:28 this is pretty smart, i mean, they're not using transforms 00:32:35 and the compiler will be able to inline it 00:33:06 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.30] has joined #lisp 00:33:42 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250012.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:34:23 is there a way to get an exact file-position for character streams ? 00:34:39 say i want to use read-line but also need to know the byte positions 00:34:50 c|mell [n=cmell@y192019.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 00:35:17 file-position 00:35:23 it always reports bytes, never characters 00:36:09 the spec says that the count is only accurate for binary streams 00:37:10 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:39:51 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 00:41:40 if it was implemented otherwise, #'(setf file-position) would need to read the whole file until it encounters one character 00:41:50 of course that's only true for variable-width encodings 00:42:23 but they exist; it's hard to imagine #'(setf file-position) returning bytes or characters depending on whether encoding has variable width 00:42:25 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:29 s/encoding/external-format/g 00:44:01 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@66.118.66.90] has quit [] 00:44:23 rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 00:46:31 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:55:24 i have reached the conclusion that lisp is cool. 00:55:53 that is good 00:57:46 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.30] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:08:02 coderdad [n=coderdad@wsip-70-182-88-168.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:38 man, i gotta figure out how to debug better. 01:10:51 i have nil buried somewhere, i get an error, and slime cant' dig to it 01:11:09 some implementations have better debug support than others 01:11:38 you can selectively tell slime to compile individual functions with higher debug levels 01:12:16 i'm in sbcl 01:13:46 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@wsip-70-182-88-168.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:13:53 i use C-u C-c C-c to get high debug on individual functions 01:14:03 that will pinpoint the exact form with the error when you go to its frame and hit "v" 01:14:45 GrayGnome` [n=MuneNoKa@user-11fa52h.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:15:52 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@153.18.26.128] has joined #lisp 01:16:59 -!- vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:17:15 vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 01:18:55 i usually find that gets what i need to know pretty well 01:20:14 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:20:31 you know, back in the days of CMUCL, debugging info just worked :) 01:21:38 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:22:30 it impaired bootstrappability, so it was discarded 01:22:42 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-96-75.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:13 There's no debugging info saved in sbcl? I didn't know that. 01:25:07 Adamant_ [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:24 rtoym: not as well as CMUCL, IIUC. 01:26:44 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:28:41 Too bad. That was one of the things I really, really liked about cmucl over all the other Lisp's I tried way back when. 01:28:47 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 01:28:50 Er, Lisps 01:31:30 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:39 GrayGnome [n=MuneNoKa@user-11fa52h.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:31:53 jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 01:32:10 Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:14 JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:55 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-aioxgqfbqlyknufs] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:33:10 pkhuong: is it with you that I was talking about bsd sockets yesterday? 01:35:54 yes. 01:38:49 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:39:10 well. funny thing happened just after I left. 01:39:21 I connect to my dev environment remotely. 01:39:41 so I close aqua macs for some reason, and then I reconnected 01:39:56 but every time I tried to load a file, my connection was "mysteriously" dropped 01:40:07 restarting the lisp image fixed it. 01:40:21 my guess is that that was exactly what we were talking about. 01:40:29 In any case, I've removed the default value of t for the key. 01:41:46 It was just interesting that this happened yesterday for the first time, right after we talked about it. I've been using it for a few months now. 01:43:54 KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:14 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@y192019.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:48:13 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.137.135] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:48:50 -!- GrayGnome` [n=MuneNoKa@user-11fa52h.dsl.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:49:24 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 01:51:05 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.142.168] has joined #lisp 01:54:47 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [] 01:55:45 _stern_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46A91.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:29 logBot9886 [n=logBot@59.92.160.110] has joined #lisp 01:59:44 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h129n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 01:59:58 silas428 [n=Ryan@c-67-182-172-128.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:11 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.138.189] has joined #lisp 02:01:50 -!- hohum [n=dcorbe@206.71.169.115] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:02:34 -!- logBot9886 [n=logBot@59.92.160.110] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:06:34 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:07:45 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.138.189] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:08:04 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:42 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.142.203] has joined #lisp 02:11:51 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E47040.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 02:13:33 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.142.168] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:20:29 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:24:15 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@97-95-190-124.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:24:55 -!- Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:27:20 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 02:28:50 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@153.18.26.128] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:31:37 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:32:46 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:22 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@216-228-28-218-static.dsl.redshift.com] has joined #lisp 02:34:10 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.142.203] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:34:17 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:38 *tumble weeds roll by* 02:36:12 -!- Adamant_ [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 02:36:24 hohum [n=dcorbe@206.71.169.115] has joined #lisp 02:36:43 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.252.58] has joined #lisp 02:44:17 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [] 02:44:29 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:44:31 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 02:44:49 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:44:49 -!- drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:45:00 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:46:30 DakeDesu [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:01 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 02:51:01 -!- DakeDesu is now known as KatrinaTheLamia 02:51:06 GrayGnome` [n=MuneNoKa@user-11fa52h.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:52:36 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:21 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:26 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 02:58:01 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.16.143] has joined #lisp 02:58:09 -!- seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:58:58 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:41 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:20 Good morning. 03:00:36 Morning. 03:00:57 morning 03:01:11 gigamonkey: you were looking for me? 03:01:25 Yeah.Just wanted to tell 03:01:27 ... 03:01:40 ... you what a disaster this "typesetting with Word" is turning into. 03:01:56 *p_l* knew it was about Word-in-DTP xD 03:02:07 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 03:02:10 -!- cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 03:02:10 tarbo_ [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 03:02:10 Yeah. Sorry. I'm a bit of a ranter on the topic. 03:02:15 cp2 [n=will@please.dont.make.me.eatddos.info] has joined #lisp 03:02:19 You can just tell me to shut up. Probably would be good for us both. 03:02:30 heh 03:02:52 find a hole in the ground and scream into it, maybe it will grow some speaking plant... :) 03:03:32 I was talking to Dan Weinreb today and he said something about how whether a non-programmer understands hierarchical file systems is diagnostic of whether they'll understand programming at all. 03:03:43 It hit me that understanding the proper use of styles in Word is another such test. 03:04:04 Then I was sad because the folks working at my publisher don't seem to. 03:04:45 gigamonkey: I'd call those "tests to see if said person should be allowed to used any general-purpose computer" 03:05:58 Yeah, perhaps. 03:06:07 so i get alot of ":" arguments in debug mode. 03:06:10 gigamonkey, but but but... MS Comic Sans Serif is a _wonderful_ typeface... do you mean to imply I know nothing about computers? 03:06:29 Though I do somewhat buy the argument that hierarchical file systems are often a bad UI choice. 03:06:29 gigamonkey: excellent book btw, and i like that it's hardcopy. 03:06:47 Demosthenes: PCL? That's so 2005. ;-) 03:06:57 But thanks. 03:07:31 eh, new to me. 03:07:31 KatrinaTheLamia: I don't care if you use Comic Sans--just so long as it's applied with a logical style. 03:08:09 gigamonkey, ah okay ^.^ 03:08:10 Demosthenes: I'm *this* close to being done with a new book (not about Lisp) so it's somewhat on my mind. PCL seems a long time ago. 03:09:06 anyways... you'll need to excuse my silliness... I've mostly been seeing a lot of stuff about Lisp on the various Iron Man blogs, figured I'd make a better attempt to learn it than I've done in the past... 03:09:21 -!- GrayGnome [n=MuneNoKa@user-11fa52h.dsl.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:09:24 gigamonkey: unfortunately I don't have publishing contacts outside Poland, so I can't help you find one in USA 03:09:37 so really, I don't know much... figured I'd come here, and try to get some via osmosis ^.^ 03:10:10 Well, Joshua Bloch (one of my subjects) does his books with Addison-Wesley and apparently they let him turn in camera ready copy *and* they pay him for the compositing. 03:10:18 So maybe I'll get an introduction from him. 03:11:36 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:11:59 gigamonkey: hmm, still camera-based? Though I guess it removes some problems with PDF/PS creation... 03:12:54 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:58 Well, I don't know how literal that "camera ready" was. 03:13:18 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@216-228-28-218-static.dsl.redshift.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:15:41 gigamonkey: the old method of preparing printing plates was to make photos of pages and then use those negatives to make the plates (the plates are covered with materials reacting to light), then it was upgraded to direct printing on the film before making the plates, and there are some machines that directly act on plates 03:17:36 And in all three cases (these days) the inital thing (whether on paper to be photographed, film, or plates) the input is presumably PDF or PS these days? 03:18:44 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:59 i've heard horror stories about places requiring word... 03:19:10 depends. The machinery accepts PS or PDF, usually. Although sometimes said "machinery" includes a separate computer running special software that actually drives the machine 03:19:31 p_l: sure, that's just a very cumberson printer driver. ;-) 03:19:37 cumbersome 03:20:37 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:21:33 gigamonkey: not really, when you have to "print" multiple separate plates per page while controlling chemical environment, all from single, colour PDF it gets more complicated than just "printer driver" :D 03:22:19 Sure. But from my point of view, if I give them a PDF and then they take it from there, I don't really care how they do it. 03:23:00 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@216-228-28-218-static.dsl.redshift.com] has joined #lisp 03:23:02 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@216-228-28-218-static.dsl.redshift.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:27:00 gigamonkey: find one that accepts normal color PDFs, so you don't have to do separation yourself 03:27:51 Right. 03:29:32 -!- lrenn [n=lrenn@pool-173-75-248-87.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 03:33:58 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:36:25 lat [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 03:36:49 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:37:45 -!- aminorex1 is now known as aminorex 03:39:12 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:40:03 kmcorbett [n=Keith@12.178.92.2] has joined #lisp 03:41:23 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:42:27 hrm, all these "not available" debugging arguments, is there a way to enable them? 03:42:35 i already have a declaim statement at the top of my file. 03:43:39 man, i've got emacs 23 compiled, the new slime, and a new sbcl to try and tinker with, but i ahve stuff to get done so i'm still on 22 and the debian defaults 03:46:56 -!- Nshag [n=shag@Mix-Orleans-106-4-176.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 03:52:16 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-173-51-224-238.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:54:05 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:59 does anyone have working experience with AllegroServe? I'm working on a project and after a few hits, it'll start just choking (endless "loading" on the browser side). I'm assuming a thread has signaled a condition and is awaiting user input, but I don't know how to access it 03:56:05 ideas 03:57:41 ? 03:57:51 morganb [n=user@76.109.10.14] has joined #lisp 03:59:25 Moe111: Why AllegroServe and not Hunchentoot? (Just curiosity) 03:59:42 gigamonkey? ;) 03:59:52 Just started that way, and is continuing that way. 04:00:12 I did ask around in the beginning, and nobody seemed fervent about either 04:00:19 so I just picked on 04:00:21 e 04:03:36 jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 04:04:18 |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E456BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:43 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:11:52 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 04:12:13 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:16:21 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 04:22:04 Moe111: Sorry. You still there. 04:22:14 -!- _stern_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46A91.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:22:16 yes. I'm here. 04:22:23 I wasn't calling you though. I was answering p_l 04:22:29 Oh, I see. 04:22:50 Anyway, if I were to do a 2nd ed. of PCL (which is seeming less and less likely) I'd convert it to Hunchentoot. 04:22:55 unless, of course, you have an answer to my question =) 04:23:06 oh yeah? You've used both now? 04:23:09 Yeah. 04:23:12 any reason why you'd go hunch? 04:23:25 (aside from a fanatical lack of documentation for aserve)? 04:23:35 Mostly because it semes to be more energetically maintained. 04:23:51 I hear what you are saying. I feel that too 04:23:53 AllegroServe seems more like something that has never been fully productized. 04:24:09 is hunchentoot "productized", as you put it? 04:24:10 Hunchentoot may not be either, but it feels like it might get there. 04:24:46 Plus the Portable AllegroServe code base is sort of hairy because they don't want to diverge from the Franz Allegro Serve. 04:24:58 That's a tough constraint to operate under and make forward progress. 04:25:34 Moe111: Most new developments seem to use either Hunchentoot or some internal webserver (especially since reverse proxies became popular) 04:25:40 Before Edi did Hunchentoot I had just started work on TWAS which was going to be TWAS Was Allegro Serve, a fork. 04:26:08 you guys are making me sad here =) 04:26:46 I'd really like to migrate a production system of mine to lisp, and there seems to be no commercially solid webserver around. 04:27:32 *p_l* thinks Hunchentoot + reverse proxy would be enough for "commercially viable" 04:28:23 may I ask why the reverse-proxy add-on? 04:29:15 (does hunchentoot not have the usual webserver paraphernalia like SSL etc? 04:29:17 ) 04:29:24 Moe111: performance? 04:30:16 *p_l* is used to thinking in terms of several servers together in a cluster 04:30:20 people tend to run a web-server (apache, lighttpd or nginx etc.) already .. they all provide a reverse proxy (mod_proxy) .. and yeah, serving static boring content using a server like lighttpd or nginx is quite fast; lighttpd servers youtube for instance so why not 04:30:42 and yes, static content benefits 04:30:51 is there any way to suppress undefined-function warnings? I'm not bootstrapped yet, so some functions aren't written, but lower-level code refers to them... 04:31:00 Alright. I was just wondering if it was because hunchentoot wasn't able to do serious business like SSL etc 04:32:37 Moe111: when you have "serious business" with SSL, it's not uncommon to have separate "SSL accelerators" that deal with encryption and do unencrypted traffic to actual server... at least I had seen them at my former workplace 04:33:32 I've had that too. Although nowadays, extra CPUs cost practically the same as hardware ssl cards. Unless you are VISA or something 04:33:34 HT can do SSL on its own 04:34:02 Moe111: we had one or two "embedded" boxes that did SSL processing for the whole net, I think 04:34:03 so what I"m hearing here in unison is: switch from Aserve/Webactions to hunchentoot 04:34:12 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:23 is that correct? 04:34:24 Moe111: That'd be my advice. 04:34:41 Well, don't switch for no reason. But if you're at a good switching point, yes. 04:35:05 I'm at a switching point in that I've just started porting. So now's the best time 04:35:28 I have another question though: is there any other webserver that we are not talking about that would be good as well? 04:36:05 Moe111: there's that "world's fastest web server EVAR" thing. 04:36:09 teepeedee? 04:36:24 I don't know what its status is, though. Probably not production. 04:36:26 heh. 04:36:41 There's cl-http 04:36:46 teepeedee2 actually .. i think plain teepeedee is an older c++ version from the same author 04:36:53 It ran whitehouse.gov during the Clinton years. 04:37:24 But it has, or is percieved to have, licensing issues that nobody seems to be able to make any sense of so people mostly just don't use it. 04:38:11 also, does anyone maintains it? 04:39:09 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 04:39:54 p_l: dunno. 04:40:07 I must say that as awesome as Lisp is as a language, the community seems to have a "reimplementation happy" syndrome. 04:40:16 =\ 04:40:17 I think at best it was one guy. 04:40:23 I don't really know that though. 04:41:25 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:29 Moe111: Because it's too easy to just reimplement what you want instead of searching for a library 04:42:16 heh .. i think there are many more http servers actually, Moe111 .. there is one custom for UCW .. i have one .. attilla_lendvai has one for his wui .. i think weblocks have a custom one too, but i'm not sure of that actually 04:42:23 p_l: I don't know if you're saying that as in "that's the reason why" or if you're saying it as a justification. Either way though, I find it surprising becuase it's the first thing I had to learn not to do when I started programming professionally 04:42:49 lnostdal: weblocks runs on hunchentoot 04:43:03 ok, rme 04:43:30 (just fyi, not trying to jump down your throat or anything) 04:44:01 -!- silas428 [n=Ryan@c-67-182-172-128.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:44:29 saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:07 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:03 Moe111: I don't know if another part of it might be that Lisp also has a fair number of hobbyist programmers--people who have "day jobs" where they don't use Lisp and then they hack Lisp for fun. 04:47:20 When you're doing it for fun, you do whatever is fun, not necessarily what's most cost-effective. 04:47:27 that is very likely. 04:47:33 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 04:48:03 I've been trolling forums a lot for the past half a year, and I've not encountered anyone who's actually deployed a lisp based website with more than 100k views a month. 04:48:05 it was easier just writing a custom thingy from scratch that dealt with very simple things ("ajax messages", and only that; proxy handles the rest anyway) in a special way (must handle many concurrent keep-alive http connections) than trying to add a new backend to hunchentoot .. actually, it doesn't seem uncommon to do this elsewhere either; there are several http servers for java 04:48:06 I can certainly see the appeal, after spending the day wrestling with umpteen dozen gross Java frameworks apparently written by serious crack addicts, wanting to just kick back and implement everything from scratch yourself. 04:48:49 moe: People who want to develop high profile web sites generally want to do that rather than play with lisp. 04:48:50 Plus, as you'll all see when you buy Coders at Work, if you do that you'll have Donald Knuth's blessing. 04:48:52 heh. After wrestling with bad libraries, I come home and build a boat. 04:48:53 =) 04:49:08 Yeah. Well, you're smart. ;-) 04:49:12 Moe111: what kinda boat? 04:49:19 Moe111: also, there's little organisation when it comes to libraries. Haskell, otoh, managed to avoid that by basically standardising on GHC and Hackage 04:49:21 a parenboat 04:49:23 42 foot ketch. wooden 04:49:47 how do people generally feel about the defclass macro? Is it bloat? Is it ugly? Should we just all use ensure-class? Is it the loveliest thing on this planet since the advent of parens? 04:49:50 holy smokes! thats a big boat. 04:50:13 i just have a lil 9.5' kayak 04:50:13 sykopomp: you mean CL:DEFCLASS? 04:50:18 Zhivago: I'm not so sure about what you're saying there. In the few weeks I've worked with Lisp, I've managed to do more powerful things than the decade plus of works I've done otherwise 04:50:43 gigamonkey: yeah. 04:50:55 moe: Yes, but has that inspired you to do and develop a high profile web site about naked people or whatever? 04:51:06 gigamonkey: it's an interface question. I'm wondering if it's good to have a similar interface for something I'm working on. 04:51:25 I think there's a very real division between 'interesting to hack on' and 'producing something popular and useful to real people'. 04:51:35 Ah. It's okay, I'd say. 04:51:57 The fact that lots of people feel compelled to write a DEFCLASS* of some sort or another suggests it's not perfect. 04:52:04 But there may be no perfect solution. 04:52:47 hm 04:53:10 what about the whole (((())))()(()()()())) + not-a-function thing? 04:53:18 eh? 04:54:01 those parens dont match 04:54:24 felideon: they do, but not from beginning to end! 04:54:46 sykopomp: the last ) has no match hehe 04:54:49 gigamonkey: I wonder if anyone thinks defclass is too paren-heavy, although I don't see how that could be helped at all... 04:55:02 felideon: you're right ;] 04:55:03 felideon: oh darn, you're right. 04:55:21 sometimes, not even paren matching can save you, I guess :( 04:55:41 sykopomp: I dunno if it'll help but it might be interested to look at the DEFINE-BINARY-CLASS macros I wrote for PCL. 04:56:14 WTF, I thought cheap digital watches were supposed to keep pretty god time. 04:56:34 I've lost like two seconds in as many days. 04:56:34 gigamonkey: Casio? 04:56:35 Zhivago: I guess the point is that I was hoping CL would have a minimum of one webserver implementation that everyone could agree on. I think it should be clear that Lisp isn't something "to just hack on" as opposed to "work with". 04:56:38 Timex. 04:56:55 Moe111: Hunchentoot is the nearest thing. 04:57:01 yup =) 04:57:04 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:57:16 I think i messed up my automatic watch. when i first got it all i ever did was try to make the thing inside spin and spin around 04:57:16 There are others but, as you've noticed here, there's pretty strong consensus that it's the one to use. 04:57:30 yes. I have. 04:57:52 *gigamonkey* still wants a watch that syncs via wifi+ntp and/or GPS 04:57:58 and btw, is there a templating component to hunchentoot which is similar to what webactions is to allegroserve? 04:58:12 gigamonkey: you could always just get one of those atomic watches or whatever. 04:58:15 Not part of Hunchentoot, that I'm aware of. 04:58:36 sykopomp: I'm not sure they work that well. I had a clock version and it didn't stay synced. 04:58:49 It seemed to have trouble getting the signal. 04:58:55 gigamonkey: the clock stayed synced! The problem is that the rest of the world ran fast :) 04:59:03 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:00:33 can't believe Bellsouth discontinued their Usenet servers. not that I could keep up with the neverending c.l.l threads 05:01:32 And with that, I bid all farewell and gnight on my EST. 05:01:39 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 05:02:11 the night is young! Ripe for the coding. 05:02:21 lol 05:02:35 Heck. I'm PST and I'm going to bed. Goodnight. 05:02:52 lightweight :P 05:02:54 goodnight :) 05:03:08 nite guys. 05:04:39 is there any way in Hunchentoot to create a dispatcher/handler relative to the server URI rather than the physical path? 05:04:47 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:05:50 felideon pasted "css dispatcher/handler" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85366 05:10:25 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit ["I plead the fifth"] 05:12:58 Bueller? 05:14:52 KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:16:06 ugh check out (asdf:find-system '#:clpython) 05:16:11 is has no components 05:16:46 alright,nite guys 05:16:48 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:19:50 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:20:12 |Trickster| [i=Trickste@77.232.135.67] has joined #lisp 05:22:24 weirdo: one question: Do you sleep? Ever? 05:23:48 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 05:26:12 p_l, i do. once every two days 05:26:22 slime broke again 05:26:35 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:26:54 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@12.178.92.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:26:58 weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 05:27:41 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 05:28:37 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Client Quit] 05:28:57 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-206-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:35:18 -!- vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:35:51 vsync__ [n=vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 05:36:35 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 05:37:56 karol [n=karol@S01060050181cfee5.vs.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:53 Hello, #lisp. I'd love to run Common Lisp on my PalmOS4 device. I tried LispMe, but I really cannot live with Scheme. I pondered emulating an apple IIe computer, there is some tiny lisp that runs on that, but at that point I'm better off with LispMe. Any thoughts? 05:41:36 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 05:41:54 karol: AFAIK there isn't any available implementation for PalmOS4, but you might have some chances porting clisp or ECL 05:41:56 What is your problem with scheme? 05:42:04 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest65302 05:42:27 Zhivago: Personal taste. I like my (length ...) to work on strings, lists and everything. 05:42:42 Well, um, why not do that? 05:42:59 -!- Guest65302 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 05:43:07 Because if I were to fix all issues that I do not like in Scheme, I'd end up implementing CL. 05:43:31 Oh, and I thought you were just looking to run some tiny little lisp ... 05:43:55 -!- Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:44:12 Well, Star Sapphire lisp is pretty small and still a common lisp. 05:44:22 600k or something, although I may be wrong. 05:44:29 No way to put DosBox on palm4 though. 05:44:50 How the definition of tiny has changed over the years... :) 05:45:11 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:23 Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:20 lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:51 Thanks for suggestions. I'm off to look at porting ECL, although if I know anything about Palm... *sigh* 05:48:53 -!- karol [n=karol@S01060050181cfee5.vs.shawcable.net] has quit ["leaving"] 05:50:44 lghtng [n=user@68-185-76-139.dhcp.prtv.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:53:15 angerman [n=angerman@p57A3AB71.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:00:43 How can I read an entire file into memory? 06:02:12 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@78.116.11.105] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:02:12 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:03:00 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:04:29 -!- Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:05:56 lat: I'd use read-sequence. 06:07:38 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit ["off"] 06:10:36 lat: What is in the file, and how do you want it represented in memory? 06:11:01 Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:04 beach, words. It is a book. 06:13:43 lat: And you want individual words in memory? 06:15:01 -!- jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 06:15:33 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 06:15:54 beach, actually, I want to end up with another file containing every unique word sorted. 06:16:26 lat: read each line with read-line and use split-sequence to divide it into words. 06:16:37 lat: Does it contain punctuation as well? 06:18:26 -!- TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has quit [Client Quit] 06:18:48 peddie [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:02 beach, yes. I want the punctuation discarded. 06:20:02 lat: Then you might as well read character by character and accumulate whenever you find something that is char-alpha-p. 06:20:24 (Or is that alpha-char-p? I can never remember.) 06:21:11 HG` [n=wells@xdslec221.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:23:01 spradnyesh1 [n=pradyus@117.192.8.192] has joined #lisp 06:23:06 rme and beach, ok. Thanks, I'll do some more studying, and try out your suggestions. 06:23:43 Be back later. 06:25:11 -!- girzel [n=user@123.121.223.23] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:25:17 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 06:25:55 -!- lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has left #lisp 06:29:15 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Client Quit] 06:29:32 pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:35:48 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.16.143] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:37:18 cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has joined #lisp 06:37:34 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:40:30 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-69-181-127-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:59 -!- spradnyesh1 [n=pradyus@117.192.8.192] has left #lisp 06:44:46 kkaji` [n=plinka@87.110.231.66] has joined #lisp 06:45:16 Please help me - http://www.lostworlds.lv/go.php?1139723800 06:45:18 -!- kkaji` [n=plinka@87.110.231.66] has left #lisp 06:46:14 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-96-75.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:47:06 mrSpec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 06:47:58 hello 06:47:59 daniel__ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 06:48:18 Joreji [n=user@42-153.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 06:48:30 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 06:49:12 has anyone tried working further on shake.lisp? 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08:08:44 The context for this question: 08:09:35 I'm trying to debug a finalizer which doesn't seem to be working right, and I'm having it print a message when it runs. One of the messages from a finalizer gets printed in bright blue, in the midst of other normally-colored text in *inferior-lisp* 08:10:36 TuxPurple [n=TuxPurpl@unaffiliated/tuxpurple] has joined #lisp 08:11:18 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:15:56 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:18:21 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:18:49 Adlai, M-x customize-face 08:18:54 you'll know what kind of face is it 08:19:10 comint-highlight-prompt 08:19:25 why would swank want to highlight something in *inferior-lisp*? 08:19:37 ah, wait. 08:19:45 it's the last thing printed. maybe that's it. 08:21:04 -!- girzel [n=user@123.120.161.51] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:21:26 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-109-209.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:23:26 -!- logBot9592 [n=logBot@59.92.154.203] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:34:07 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-206-08.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:35:09 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:28 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-24.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:39:14 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 08:40:19 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-198-50.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 08:43:40 jd8hh57 [n=mickey@host217-34-51-26.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 08:45:17 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-11-86.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:45:27 hail 08:47:48 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:56:26 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 08:57:20 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:57:29 angerman_ [n=angerman@p57A38709.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:57:51 -!- Soemnbesiktigar is now known as Rastbesiktningen 08:58:26 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 08:58:57 Adlai: yes, comint uses a different face for the last line, which can be seen while it is incomplete. (When the last line is complete, that is, it has a newline at the end, then it is no more the last line). 08:59:34 -!- whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:00:41 hm, I'm dealing with a pretty strange issue here. 09:01:22 some finalizers are supposed to delete weak references to an object in various places. 09:01:53 according to print statements from within the finalizers, these references are being deleted. 09:02:28 however, according to print statements before and after running the garbage collector in the test code, the references are not being deleted. 09:02:42 this is on CCL, and it seems that the garbage collector runs in a separate thread 09:02:49 could that have something to do with this problem? 09:03:20 what would it mean to delete a weak reference? 09:04:34 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@147.46.241.19] has quit [Client Quit] 09:04:43 lichtblau: it's a trivial-garbage:weak-pointer 09:05:25 hello. did some of you participate in google code jam 2008 or will do this year? 09:05:29 "deleting" one in this case just means setfing the place that used to hold it to NIL. 09:06:36 <_3b> isn't the whole point of weak refs that you don't have to delete them by hand? 09:07:30 fgtech [n=federico@host54-219-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:07:33 <_3b> alternately, are you sure you aren't confusing thread local bindings from multiple threads? 09:07:37 _3b: the weak pointer object remains, even though (weak-pointer-value ) would return NIL. I'm trying to delete the weak pointer object itself. 09:08:21 aren't thread local bindings and multiple threads two completely different concepts? 09:09:27 the code doesn't use any threaded stuff -- CCL runs the GC in another thread, though. 09:13:32 -!- angerman [n=angerman@p57A3AB71.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:13:54 -!- dwh [n=dwh@eth2.vic.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:14:35 -!- saikat [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:18:25 trebor_dki: code jam? 09:20:08 -!- Rastbesiktningen is now known as Jobbesiktningen 09:23:55 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-78-106.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:25:20 hmm... read through the rules and SBCL is an acceptable platform, hmm :3 09:26:12 http://code.google.com/intl/de/codejam/ 09:26:33 trebor_dki: just read through it :) 09:28:53 how can i get the sbcl compiler version ? is there a variable or something? 09:29:12 clhs lisp-implementation-version 09:29:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_lisp_i.htm 09:29:18 thx 09:30:11 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:35:33 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 09:35:48 i have this weird issue which i suspect is due to sbcl of it not closing sockets when using hunchentoot. it's sbcl 1.0.20 on freebsd, and it somehow seems to escape the PROCESS-CONNECTION method without hitting the UNWIND-PROTECT form. do you know if this has been fixed in a later version? 09:36:17 whoppix [n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1324.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 09:37:59 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [] 09:39:30 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:39:53 -!- ASau [n=user@host158-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:41:40 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:46:56 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:51:12 -!- swilde [n=wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:56:36 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:56:54 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:58:35 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:01:51 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host54-219-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:04:14 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:05:37 -!- Jobbesiktningen is now known as Rastbesiktningen 10:05:56 -!- pok [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:05:59 pok [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 10:06:53 ASau [n=user@host158-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 10:07:04 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E456BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 10:07:14 -!- Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:07:27 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-39.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:07:58 -!- ski [n=slj@c-9011e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:08:00 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.49.208] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:08:02 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 10:08:08 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E456BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:08:11 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.49.208] has joined #lisp 10:08:57 Ringo48 [n=Ringo48@97-122-180-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:29 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 10:09:44 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-110-225-173.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:16 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:12:15 mouflon [i=skajohan@Psilocybe.Update.UU.SE] has joined #lisp 10:12:46 ski [n=slj@c-9011e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:20:23 benny [n=benny@i577A1DA3.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:20:25 kooll [n=samson_t@sd-10510.dedibox.fr] has joined #lisp 10:23:10 noptys_ [n=noptys@and.noemailaddress.com] has joined #lisp 10:28:13 -!- koollman [n=samson_t@sd-10510.dedibox.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:34:15 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 10:34:15 -!- noptys [n=noptys@and.noemailaddress.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:34:33 Vinnipeg [n=barbastr@95.84.18.248] has joined #lisp 10:44:40 -!- banisterfiend [n=little_b@202-89-134-224.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:45:43 tomshark [n=user@c-68-52-200-197.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:46 -!- tomshark [n=user@c-68-52-200-197.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has left #lisp 10:48:23 hmmm... same thing with 1.0.30 10:48:26 runing single threaded 10:49:33 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-72-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 10:49:37 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:52:09 jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.41.189] has joined #lisp 10:56:00 dwh [n=dwh@ppp121-44-203-158.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:58:48 banisterfiend [n=little_b@203-211-73-165.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:00:23 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32CF6A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:06 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:01:31 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@222.127.41.189] has quit [] 11:02:44 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-206-08.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:08:58 Idebesiktningen [i=HydraIRC@79.138.207.203.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 11:09:14 girzel [n=user@123.121.218.183] has joined #lisp 11:13:37 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@162.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:14:51 Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 11:15:01 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@pool-71-114-64-62.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["noe"] 11:15:11 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:36 -!- Idebesiktningen is now known as Annekterar 11:20:09 -!- aminorex [n=aminorex@24-179-163-72.dhcp.dlth.mn.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:20:34 aminorex [n=aminorex@24-179-163-72.dhcp.dlth.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 11:21:39 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 11:24:40 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 11:27:55 jao [n=jao@127.Red-213-98-196.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:14 logBot1497 [n=logBot@59.92.192.177] has joined #lisp 11:28:40 -!- Rastbesiktningen [i=HydraIRC@95.209.31.98.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:31:08 logBot1592 [n=logBot@59.92.140.78] has joined #lisp 11:31:39 -!- logBot1497 [n=logBot@59.92.192.177] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:34:30 demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-197-035.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:45 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:35:15 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.14.107] has joined #lisp 11:36:38 unicode [n=user@95.214.94.96] has joined #lisp 11:37:21 hi all, please suggest me a lisp interpreter, interactive 11:37:56 unicode: are you sure you don't want a compiler? 11:38:22 if you want something lightweight, though, and compiled performance doesn't matter, try CLISP. 11:38:23 danlei [n=user@pD9E2CB4D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:27 minion: tell unicode about clisp 11:38:27 unicode: have a look at clisp: CLISP is a Common Lisp implementation by Bruno Haible of Karlsruhe University and Michael Stoll of Munich University, both in Germany. http://www.cliki.net/clisp 11:38:40 chris2 [n=chris@p5B169568.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:39:30 unicode: Do you particularly want an interpreter, or are you just confusing interactivity and interpretation? 11:40:02 mmmm, an interpreter with inmediate evaluation 11:40:27 <_3b> unicode: but not a compiler with immediate evaluation? 11:40:48 well, maybe too 11:40:58 well, if what you want is a CL implementation that provides a Read-Eval-Print Loop, then I'd recommend any of Clozure, SBCL, or CLISP 11:40:58 something light, to use on linux console 11:41:06 CLISP is the lightest of those 11:41:14 although it's the slowest, too. 11:41:22 ok, doint apt-get install clisp is enough? 11:41:32 if you're just getting started, yes. 11:41:40 do you know about SLIME though? 11:41:54 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 11:41:58 slime is related emacs? 11:42:00 francogre [n=franco@91.180.240.209] has joined #lisp 11:42:24 minion: tell unicode about SLIME 11:42:24 yes, slime is (unfortunately...) tied to Emacs. 11:42:25 unicode: direct your attention towards SLIME: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/SLIME 11:42:37 I have installed a scheme program called lispme on my palm pda, for when i travel: i cannot live without lisp! 11:42:49 however, it's by far the best IDE for hacking CL nowadays. 11:42:51 well emacs is near a religious experience 11:42:52 anyone knows this lispme? 11:43:06 minion: tell me about lispme 11:43:06 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``lispme''. 11:43:11 unicode: No, it's just a very good and very useful tool. 11:43:16 francogre: if minion doesn't, nobody does! 11:43:40 right beach, is wonderful, but i'm (yet) a vim user.... 11:43:54 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 11:43:56 someday i'll get the light on emacs.... 11:44:10 unicode: there are vim options as well, but they're not as advanced as SLIME. 11:44:30 I think there's one called Nekthuth, and there might be others. 11:44:36 minion: vim 11:44:37 vim: The Vi family of editors (with vim probably being the most frequently used implementation) is almost universally "the other editor" to Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/vim 11:45:05 ok, and what about lispme? 11:45:13 unicode: according to that page, "Limp" is the best. 11:45:23 unicode: as francogre said, that's Scheme, not CL. 11:45:40 ok for the addcts: http://www.lispme.de/lispme/index_en.html 11:45:42 right, so i'll try clisp 11:46:14 if you want something more high performance, consider switching to Clozure or SBCL 11:46:21 minion should add this link maybe 11:47:27 ok, i'll browse limp and minion too 11:48:10 unicode: The reason we are picky about using the word "interpreter" is that some peopl think that the fact that there is an interactive command loop implies that it is an interpreter, and since interpreters are usually slower than native code, people associate interactivity with slowness. 11:48:41 unicode: However, those two are orthogonal issues. You can have an interactive system that generates native code, and a batch interpreter. 11:48:47 francogre: I'm not sure, that's a Scheme system on a dead platform, while this is a very live channel about Common Lisp. 11:49:28 yes beach, some definition could be not enough well defined for beginners 11:50:09 Adlai: I understand it's scheme, but it's not for the love of shceme, I am a big CL fervent. But it might stimulate people to develop CL implementations on handheld devices no? 11:50:40 It's up to you guys running the channel was just a nice find I wanted to share 11:51:14 CL on smaller devices is a tricy issue. I think CLISP images start at about 5MB, and that's supposed to be the most lightweight CL and it doesn't even cover the entire ANSI spec. 11:51:29 I'm not one of the guys running the channel (: 11:51:49 it definitely looks interesting though, thank you for pointing it out. 11:53:12 Adlai: ECL fits below that 11:53:29 my clisp .deb on apt-get, is about 12Mb. 11:53:39 are palmos palms even still available? 11:53:50 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:54:05 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6E477.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 11:55:07 unicode: the size of a "running image" starts smaller than that. The word "image" in this context basically refers to a dump of the program heap. 11:55:23 rsynnott; well if not palm OS necessarily, there are still other handheld devices 11:55:48 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@117.192.14.107] has left #lisp 11:55:54 *Adlai* recently considered writing a Lisp for an old TI-89 until he realized it had about 20kb ram... 11:55:56 Adlai: ECL core weights 5.7MB on x86-64, next 6MB is contrib 11:56:18 i'm browsing lisp related, on synpatics 11:56:20 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:56:23 ECL seems lighter 11:57:27 p_l: I wouldn't know because I never managed to get it to work right... 11:57:42 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:57:42 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:58:40 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 11:58:40 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:05:43 is there a way to wrap with some dynamic environment the loading of all files of an ASDF system at once? i'm looking for a solution other than reastablishing the environment at the loading of each file individually 12:06:20 this might be impossible due to the nature asdf flattens dependencies and handles loading 12:06:50 francogre: I used lispme a little when I had a Palm Tungsten C. 12:06:57 levy: do you mean to bind this env when you call #'asdf:oos, or when you define the system? 12:07:15 when oos load-op 12:07:26 francogre: it's not too funny to use it, you really have to have your lisp shot... 12:07:39 but also when other systems load this one 12:07:50 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 12:07:50 either explicitly or by dependency 12:08:05 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:08:14 because you could (defmethod asdf:operate :around ((op asdf:load-op) (system (eql (asdf:find-system :this-system)))) ...) 12:08:18 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest68922 12:08:42 Adlai, that does not work, because that around is not around the loading of the files in that system 12:08:48 -!- Guest68922 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 12:09:27 won't all the files get loaded within the scope of a method wrapping #'asdf:oos? 12:10:35 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:14:16 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-179-45-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:34 Adlai, sadly no 12:14:48 hmmm 12:17:06 -!- francogre [n=franco@91.180.240.209] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:25:11 in fact the around is called at the very end, after all files are loaded 12:25:32 binding (*read-default-float-format* 'double-float) inside asdf:perform gives `(#.*read-default-float-format* ,(load-time-value *read-default-float-format*)) => (SINGLE-FLOAT DOUBLE-FLOAT) 12:26:32 -!- Annekterar is now known as Kaffe 12:31:41 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:32:05 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 12:35:40 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 12:35:44 fgtech [n=federico@host54-219-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:36:14 angerman [n=angerman@p57A3BCD4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:37:16 levy: you have to do it file-by-file 12:38:57 Xof: does that mean that you couldn't, for example, bind a dynamic variable to the same gensym while loading each file? 12:42:12 coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:14 you could 12:42:30 stassats` pasted "asdf bindingings" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85374 12:42:35 seems to work for me 12:43:01 (let ((cookie (gensym))) (defmethod perform ((o load-op) (f my-source-file)) (let ((*foo* cookie)) (call-next-method)))) 12:43:36 -!- angerman_ [n=angerman@p57A38709.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 12:44:24 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@ip72-200-214-240.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:44:25 Xof: hm, thanks for clearing that up. 12:45:48 BrianRice` [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:03 -!- Kaffe is now known as Annekterar 12:51:29 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:56:39 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 13:02:01 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-71-59-210-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:06:21 -!- logBot1592 [n=logBot@59.92.140.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:08:37 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:09:27 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-175.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 13:10:04 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 13:10:44 -!- Annekterar is now known as Regnskyddade 13:10:58 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B21D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:20 coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has joined #lisp 13:12:38 cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 13:15:21 swilde [n=wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has joined #lisp 13:25:22 -!- wasabi_________ [n=wasabi@nttkyo946146.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0.1+svn-34672M: SIGTERM received; exit"] 13:25:25 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:26 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host54-219-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:25:28 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:27:06 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #lisp 13:28:00 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:29:28 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32CF6A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:06 salva [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 13:31:48 -!- salva_ [n=salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:32:13 gko [n=gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:48 -!- dwh [n=dwh@ppp121-44-203-158.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:44:25 beach: do you know Nguyn V Ngc Tùng? 13:47:08 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:47:56 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:49:19 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 13:49:34 Xach: I do yes. 13:49:57 Xach: Why? 13:51:02 beach: I just stumbled across his blog, and I thought there can't be too many students in vietnam working with common lisp that you *don't* know. 13:51:20 That is probably true. Where is his blog? 13:51:40 http://nvntung.blogspot.com/ 13:51:42 Xach: He is actually in Bordeaux for his internship right now. 13:52:24 -!- Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:53:26 ah, i see 13:55:20 anyone knows why gengc hates me? http://paste.lisp.org/display/85376 13:57:59 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-179-45-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:58:08 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-179-45-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:59 awesome name. V 14:03:10 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:03:58 How so? 14:04:06 weirdo: any idea what's causing the OOM? 14:04:24 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.232.50] has joined #lisp 14:06:01 luis, i ran a full GC every iteration and it stabilized at some point 14:06:09 either that or some loose reference 14:07:18 weirdo: try setting gencgc_verbose to 2 and/or compile the runtime with SHOW enabled. Maybe that'll give you some hints, not sure. 14:08:46 beach: was your question for me? 14:09:00 angerman_ [n=angerman@p57A3B34B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:09:03 luis: Yes, sorry! 14:09:17 beach: what's not awesome about V? 14:09:51 luis: I guess when you put it that way... :) 14:09:55 Is that the one where the pope is a reptilian? 14:12:40 Zhivago: I notice you're using a Linode box. Have you used it for lisp stuff? 14:13:30 luis: Yes. It runs sbcl without any problem that I've noticed. 14:13:48 I also use clisp on it. 14:14:27 Zhivago: Xen? 14:15:07 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229162021.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:15:16 I believe so. I just used the default. 14:15:35 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229162021.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:15:40 the current linodes use Xen, afaik. Once they also used UML, but it looks like they don't do that anymore 14:15:40 I think I should move mine to Xen. 14:16:10 -!- angerman [n=angerman@p57A3BCD4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:16:12 I think mine is still UML. 14:16:42 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B21D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:17:13 Zhivago: last question, 64-bit? 14:18:11 32 bit. 14:19:51 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-179-45-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:20:46 jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:21:21 -!- jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:21:53 jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:23:21 Dawgm_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:02 hah 14:24:04 even series dies 14:24:07 is there a programmatic way to get the name of the current function thats executing ? 14:24:18 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@nttkyo946146.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:24:21 (kind of like the non portable __FUNC__ from gcc) 14:24:33 Dawgm_: no. 14:24:36 weirdo: ah, are you messing with gencgc? 14:24:53 I was curious on how profilers worked then ... 14:25:04 Dawgm_: well, yes, that's true. there is. 14:25:15 Actually, I'm very impressed with linode -- it has had absolutely no problems what-so-ever. 14:25:19 weirdo pasted "series OOM" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85378 14:25:23 Dawgm_: it's not a standard functionality, but implementations can offer that feature. 14:25:39 luis, no, all default settings 14:25:44 i see *heads to see the sb-prof source code* 14:26:10 Dawgm_: sb-profile wraps functions to profile 14:26:15 Dawgm_: sb-sprof might be more useful 14:26:21 okay 14:26:32 sb-sprof does stack sampling 14:27:23 Dawgm_: (sb-debug::backtrace) ? 14:27:37 mucho thanks :) 14:28:37 pdo [n=user@217.33.254.141] has joined #lisp 14:30:36 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@nttkyo346131.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:30:40 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:30:43 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B21D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:05 yeah Zhivago - linode is pretty cool, 19.99 per month to basically do whatever you want 14:33:29 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:59 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@nttkyo946146.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:36:38 kmels_ [n=kmels@190.148.137.224] has joined #lisp 14:38:40 -!- cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:40:03 wasabi___ [n=wasabi@nttkyo913035.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:42:24 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:54 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-103-121.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:49:24 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 14:50:12 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@nttkyo346131.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:51:39 matley [n=matley@net-91-81-209-200.cust.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 14:52:05 hello 14:52:15 hello Fade 14:52:28 heya, beach 14:52:41 antgreen [n=Anthony@bas2-toronto06-1279542440.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:55:33 -!- ASau [n=user@host158-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 14:56:03 -!- kmels_ is now known as kmels 14:56:40 dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #lisp 15:00:05 -!- pdo [n=user@217.33.254.141] has left #lisp 15:00:12 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 15:00:29 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-56-101.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:00:29 -!- prg_ [n=prg@ns.alusht.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:00:31 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-197-035.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 15:02:10 ntn 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110 (Connection timed out)] 16:00:45 -!- matley [n=matley@net-91-81-209-200.cust.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:00:58 I'm having problems installing cusp again, does anyone run it here? 16:04:04 letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has joined #lisp 16:05:24 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:05:30 fgtech [n=federico@host54-219-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:07:31 the lisp environment for eclipse? 16:07:51 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:08:38 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 16:09:33 -!- angerman_ [n=angerman@p57A3B34B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:12:38 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:14:02 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:14:16 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #lisp 16:14:23 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:06 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32CF6A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:25 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:19:39 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-11-86.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 16:21:49 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host54-219-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:25:22 -!- jd8hh57 [n=mickey@host217-34-51-26.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has left #lisp 16:25:32 demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-197-035.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:06 -!- coderdad [n=coderdad@65.67.252.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:28:26 I'm building and testing SBCL 1.0.30 on PPC OS X. It seems to be stuck at Running (:RUN-PROGRAM :PTY-STREAM). Is that normal? 16:31:18 fgtech [n=federico@host54-219-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:31:20 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:32:08 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslec221.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:33:51 seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:34:11 Paul Graham say that "lambda" is not strictly necessary in anonymous functions...is that true? 16:34:12 seb-, memo from pjb: pong (timeout) :-( 16:34:17 minion: :) 16:34:18 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 16:35:20 Why does lisp use defun for functions and setf for values?...wouldn't it be better to use defun for BOTH? 16:35:40 gigamonkey: doesn't _sound_ normal to me 16:36:27 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 16:37:28 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 16:37:48 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:38:31 seb-: you could say DEFUN is a wrapper around SETF 16:38:53 luis: you can use setf for functions as well as values? 16:39:03 seb: It is setf for places. 16:39:31 seb: (symbol-function 'x) is a place. 16:39:31 seb-: you might be more comfortable with scheme 16:39:51 seb: But really the semantics are different -- establishment vs. mutation. 16:40:04 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:40:05 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 16:40:09 seb-: You can use it on a lot of things. Including arbitrary stuff defined by yourself. 16:40:19 Fade: scheme has define and set! doesn't it? 16:40:24 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 16:40:32 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 16:40:41 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32CF6A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:11 luis: I'm no scheme afficionado, but you define both funcs and vars 16:41:21 i guess set! is for places. 16:41:49 Well, lexical variables. 16:41:56 They have set-foo! for various foo. 16:44:57 Zhivago: thanks 16:45:24 One last thing if you don't mind...Paul Graham in ANSI Common Lisp book said keyword lambda is unnecessary? 16:45:27 that bugs me 16:45:43 you can define a consistent anonymous function syntax w/o it 16:45:51 e.g. ((x) (+ x 5)) 16:46:04 rather than (lambda (x) (+ x 5)) 16:46:09 is that right? 16:46:09 He cites that as an example? 16:46:14 i made that up 16:46:28 i think he has something similar though yes 16:46:29 *Hun* fetches behind him to get the book 16:46:48 It's right, and wrong. 16:46:49 seb-: you need arbitrarily deep disambiguation, ((lambda (x) ...) ...) is a CL form. 16:47:03 tcr: ? 16:47:04 amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 16:47:08 pkhuong: what do you mean? 16:47:37 seb-: Depending on what your constraints are, it may be right, or wrong. 16:47:48 well, is ((lambda ...) ...) a lambda form, or one that calls the lambda in operator position? 16:47:48 you need something to distinguish a function definition from a regular form 16:48:26 Hun: quote is used when you want your list to be treated as data 16:48:38 Hun: and when you want to evaluate a function the first element of list must be the function 16:48:45 interesting 16:48:46 Hun: i still don't see the ambiguity 16:48:50 he really used that example 16:48:56 ansi cl, page 26 16:49:07 only with ((x) (+ x 100)) 16:49:13 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 16:49:13 the problem is different 16:49:19 Hun: so is he right? 16:49:27 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:49:32 how do you recognize that x isn't already a function and you want to call that without arguments? 16:49:32 Hun: he says lambda is just for tradition 16:49:41 *tcr* hates that his irc client does not use emacs bindings. 16:49:47 tcr: use rcirc :) 16:49:56 tcr: screen (: 16:50:16 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:50:16 Hun: i'm just a newb but i think i have an answer to your question 16:50:16 i'm sort of at the point in my life where any program that doesn't obey emacs keys drives me crazy. :) 16:50:41 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:50:48 seb-: this is a hard problem to decide at compile time. and doing it at runtime gets you into even more problems 16:51:03 seb-: word of advice: don't listen to graham! 16:51:25 Hun: yes exactly...you'd probably be ok distinguishing at runtime not compile time....that was an astute observation 16:51:45 drewc: huh? i thought he was the beloved lisp prophet :) 16:52:01 Only by those who do not know Lisp 16:52:05 seb-: no, not at all. 16:52:11 it gets more complicated. what if there's a function x that fmakunbounds X? 16:52:24 seb-: in fact, many of the better lispers i know think graham is somewhat of an idiot ;) 16:52:52 then this form would evaluate to a lambda form on second evaluation. sounds like a bad idea to me ;) 16:53:08 Hun: ok..i'll buy that...thanks 16:53:29 he's making a different point 16:53:31 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has quit ["I plead the fifth"] 16:53:36 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:41 Hun: oh? please tell me what that point is if you dont' mind 16:53:56 in older lisp dialects, the symbol lambda had a special meaning when EVALing the list with lambda in first position 16:53:58 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 16:54:08 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:54:20 seb-: he's a good writer indeed, if he's motivating you to learn Lisp that's great. But you should read a better book afterwards like Practical Common Lisp. 16:54:23 Hun: Including cltl1 16:54:29 It is the 'function' special operator that is the important bit. 16:54:36 as in you could funcall a list if LAMBDA is it's first element. you cannot do that in ansi CL 16:54:51 tcr: oh cool. didn't know that 16:54:54 and including emacs lisp ;) 16:55:03 true. but elisp is braindamaged :) 16:55:15 i gotta fetch some food. bavarian super markets are evil. 16:55:20 although...((x) (+ x 1)) would be a reasonable way to do lambda's in CL ... nothing wrong with that really , as long as (((x) (+ x 1)) 1) => 2 and we _never_ want evaluating the car of a list to return a function that is the applied to the args (like scheme) 16:55:27 I disagree. Think of it as a subset of CLtL1 16:55:29 -!- unicode [n=user@95.214.94.96] has quit [Client Quit] 16:55:34 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Client Quit] 16:56:19 drewc: And you don't ever want lambda macros. 16:56:25 personally, i'd rather have evaluation in the CAR then drop the LAMBDA ... i like lambda. 16:56:32 tcr: indeed. 16:56:38 drewc: yes wrong with that: it's a pain to parse. 16:57:28 drewc: I like ((lambda ...) ...)! 16:57:38 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 16:58:09 pkhuong: i like ((lambda ...) ...) too... i like i a lot! :) 16:58:39 tcr: hey if lambda is needed for macros then that is a rock solid reason to keep them 16:59:02 tcr: i wish PG wouldn't have said that then and caused so much confusion 16:59:04 it's a perfect example of graham talking about something that doesn't matter for 99% of people who actually use common lisp. 16:59:47 seb-: it's important to note that graham doesn't like common lisp, doesn't understand common lisp, and doesn't write well about common lisp ;) 16:59:49 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B21D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:50 seb-: I don't have that book, so I don't know the context, but perhaps his point is that if you use macros, you can implement lambda on of FLET 17:00:25 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-197-035.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 17:00:34 *drewc* hasn't had his coffee yet as is easily annoyed by graham-isms :P 17:00:42 You're always. 17:00:43 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:02:14 minion: tell seb- about PCL 17:02:15 seb-: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 17:02:18 I bet if you saw the book ANSI Common Lisp in some book shop, you'd instantly fetch a pen out of your pocket and cross out the "ANSI Common" and write Graham above it! 17:02:32 drewc: graham-annoyance causes no coffee, or vice versa? 17:02:57 tcr: hahaha, that's indeed how i feel about it, and i probably would! 17:03:09 tsk 17:03:25 rsynnott: vice-versa .. lack of coffee == my caring too much about this :) 17:03:30 ah 17:04:07 KatrinaTheLamia [n=root@S0106001cdfcd44c1.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:03 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:16 rsynnott: after a cuppa, i'll be hacking (in my PCL/PAIP/MOP-like style) and thus not bothering or being bothered. 17:06:08 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.30] has joined #lisp 17:06:11 =) 17:06:27 mornin Fade 17:06:34 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:06:36 heya, drewc 17:06:42 (well, lunch-time for you innit) 17:06:53 13:06 :) 17:07:04 on a friday! almost miller time! :) 17:07:08 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host54-219-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:07:11 haha 17:09:10 So has anyone come across a LOOP form with a conditional nesting level >= 2? 17:09:13 ah, time zones are always a bit disorienting; I'm just about to go home 17:09:39 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:10:06 tcr: LOOP can nest conditionals? 17:10:24 Sure that's what the END keyword is there 17:10:29 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 17:10:54 *drewc* has always avoided using overly complex LOOP forms. 17:11:25 That's why I didn't ask for one you've written 17:11:49 tcr: have you? 17:12:12 No, but I'm looking for one to feed it to my loop pretty-printer 17:12:57 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:13:15 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:13:26 weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:13:41 -!- kmels [n=kmels@190.148.137.224] has quit [] 17:14:58 -!- Awaybesiktigar is now known as Watbesiktningen 17:16:49 Symmetry- [n=thezog@host-static-92-114-165-252.moldtelecom.md] has joined #lisp 17:17:33 hello. can I ask a retarded quesion 17:17:55 it's something along the lines of, 17:18:02 Symmetry-: yes. 17:18:04 why is there a quote operator in lisp? 17:18:05 tcr: (loop with a = 42 with b = 32 if (< a b) do (setf b (- b a)) else if (> a b) do (setf a (- a b)) else (print a) (loop-finish)) 17:18:36 Symmetry-: is it for homework? 17:18:41 it's to prevent evaluation, I understand, but why not simply always avoid evaluation 17:18:46 tcr: the context is rather simple. it's just that lambda in a list in lambda form is no special form but a symbol which older lisps dispatched on 17:18:49 housel, no, I'm just curious about lisp 17:19:03 fgtech [n=federico@host54-219-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:19:07 Hun: ? 17:19:09 Symmetry-: If you always avoid evaluation, then how can you evaluate expressions? 17:19:17 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:19:19 tcr: you asked about the context of the graham example :) 17:19:23 tcr: sorry there was an error. Try this: (loop with a = 42 with b = 32 if (< a b) do (setf b (- b a)) else if (> a b) do (setf a (- a b)) else do (print a) (loop-finish) end) 17:19:25 Symmetry-: always avoid evaluation? not much a programming language then! 17:19:25 housel, I suppose by applying "evaluate" or something 17:19:45 I'm just musing. and like I said, the question will be retarded.. 17:19:48 evaluate is also an expression 17:20:02 hah. 17:20:05 though his conclusion is weird. `Lisp programmers were used to beginning functions with the symbol lambda, so CL retained it for the sake of tradition' 17:20:08 Symmetry-: how would you evaluate EVALUATE then? :) 17:20:10 Symmetry-: consider: (list (quote (+ 1 2)) (+ 1 2)) 17:20:48 pjb, that would look like: ( (+ 1 2) (eval (+ 1 2) ) 17:21:07 Symmetry-: why would (eval (+ 1 2)) be evaluated then? 17:21:16 Symmetry-: QUOTE is not really needed, but the "long form" without it would be rather awkward to write 17:21:21 hm, because it's the one special operator? 17:21:38 Symmetry-: in some pseudo C, you'd write: list({"+",1,2},1+2); no need for quote because there's not the same syntax for literal data and for expressions. 17:21:51 -!- Watbesiktningen [i=HydraIRC@79.138.207.203.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:21:56 Symmetry-: what if i wanted a list with the car containing the symbol EVAL... i'd need something like QUOTE right? 17:22:07 hahaha. 17:22:09 Symmetry-: consider: (quote (quote quote)) 17:22:15 hrm...: darcs failed: Can't understand repository format: hashed 17:22:20 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-wmxcwmyoaipevswi] has joined #lisp 17:22:31 That would make sense if what you had was a data language that occasionally needed to escape out, but Lisp is a programming language where programs are mostly expressions 17:22:35 slyrus: you'd need a newer darcs. 17:22:43 ok, thanks pjb 17:22:54 I thought a newer darcs was called git... 17:23:05 slyrus: after a long run of using darcs, i've got git.. i can never seem to find the right darcs to use anymore. 17:23:06 No, just a new version. 17:23:11 Watbesiktningen [i=HydraIRC@79.138.207.203.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 17:23:30 housel, I was thinking from this angle: if evaluation is never done (except say when encountering eval), macros would not be needed as an additional construct 17:23:32 Symmetry-: notice that with M-expression, there's a different syntax for data than for expressions, so you don't need quote: first[(A B)] --> A 17:23:46 Symmetry-: first[(FIRST X)] --> FIRST 17:24:04 It it's more awkward to duse than (first (quote (first x))) 17:24:14 s/ d// 17:24:24 letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has joined #lisp 17:24:36 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [No route to host] 17:24:50 I think I'm lost 17:25:23 don't know what M-expressions are 17:25:28 With M expressions, you write data s-expressions in uppercase and parentheses. 17:25:42 Symmetry-: this is the fundamentals of list, AIM-8 paper published 50 years ago. 17:25:47 ;-) 17:25:53 Symmetry-: CL is a programming language... explicitly evaluating almost everything would get somewhat tedious.. non? 17:26:12 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:26:55 well a programming language describes the program; what you need to get it running it just one eval 17:26:59 Symmetry-: In your scheme, how does do you express a list that begins with the symbol EVAL? 17:27:07 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32CF6A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:15 tcr, I haven't thought of that :| 17:27:17 mathrick: greetings from lala land 17:27:29 Symmetry-: ok .. and what if i want some literal data inside that eval.... without QUOTE how do i get it? 17:27:37 S11001001: hiya 17:27:57 drewc, that's the point, data is always literal? 17:28:03 S11001001: will you be here in 1h? I was just heading out, I gotta buy cat food before the stores close :) 17:28:14 drewc, ah, I see what you meant 17:28:25 I will be in about 1:10 17:28:25 Symmetry-: Also Lisp is svery uitable for compilation. EVAL is rarely used nowadays. 17:28:31 drewc, let's just say eval is not really a symbol... 17:28:32 minion: tell Symmetry- about aim-8 17:28:32 Symmetry-: look at aim-8: at http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/ 17:28:39 S11001001: that's just fine, see you then 17:28:43 later 17:29:10 Symmetry-: you could write (EVAL (+ A B)) or eval[(+ A B)] ; the first is data, the second is code, with literal data inside. 17:30:04 pjb, and what is the conclusion? 17:30:08 pjb: "fourillion"? 17:30:13 :-) 17:30:21 sorry I am a noob clutching at straws 17:30:22 I was lazy and soon to come back to home :-) 17:30:43 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:59 Symmetry-: the conclusion is that it's better to write (EVAL (QUOTE (+ A B))) because you can moer easily take that data and feed an interpreter or compiler with it, than translate (EVAL (+ A B)) into eval[(+ A B)]. First, there's no way with this system (M-expressions) to manipulate as data or produce the expression eval[(+ A B)]; you would have to fall back to characters. 17:33:01 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-35-246-2.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:33:07 Then when you want to make (EVAL (+ A B)) code, you won't where to stop. Shall it be eval[+[a,b]] or eval[(+ A B)] ? 17:33:38 So (EVAL (+ A B)) is some data, but it doesn't represent unambiguously some specific code. 17:33:53 You'd still need QUOTE anyways. 17:35:04 I'm not getting 100% but is what you are saying that my little scheme can't work because of this one situation where I might want the literal list (eval (+ 1 2)) ? 17:35:54 Symmetry-: that's one point. The other point I'm making, is that if you had such a data, you couldn't transform it into code. So the fundamental requirement of lisp would fail. 17:36:17 wait, why can't you transform it into code? 17:36:38 Symmetry-: my question is: what do you gain using your scheme? 17:36:45 Because data such as (EVAL (+ 1 2)) is ambiguous. It could represent eval[(+ 1 2)] or eval[+[1,2]] 17:36:56 that is either evaluate the list (+ 1 2) or the number 3. 17:37:28 So to be able to implement a function that transforms data into code, you must introduce QUOTE. 17:37:33 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:37:38 it's not ambiguous -- (+ 1 2) never turns into a 3 -- because evalutiation doesn't happen by default 17:37:41 evaluation* 17:37:54 And once you have quote, you can forget the special syntax for code. 17:38:12 What evaluation? I'm talking about a function that transforms the data into a program. 17:38:35 drewc, I was thinking you would get rid of the need for macros - they'd just be functions - and you could build code at runtime, e.g. currying, etc 17:38:41 The problem is that there is not ONE THE evaluation. There are several ways to "evaluate" an expression. 17:38:49 I know I'm totally out my league so please don't fume etc 17:39:05 pjb, yes, and *none* of them happen 17:39:52 Symmetry-: you can build code at run time and curry without macros anyway... macros are nice because the expansion usually only happens once. 17:39:53 pjb, you asked "what evaluation" I meant this: that is either evaluate the list (+ 1 2) or the number 3. 17:39:58 Symmetry-: now, for the problem of macros vs. functions, there was the notion of FEXPR, that is functions that received their arguments unevaluated. The code was still evaluated normally, only the arguments weren't. It allowed indeed to implement macro-like functions, but only at run-time. It wasn't pretty. Search about FEXPR. 17:39:59 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host54-219-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:40:25 I will thanks, pjb 17:40:43 Symmetry-: you are thinking about CL:EVAL, and I'm thinking about TRANSFORM-DATA-INTO-CODE ; both functions take a s-expression and process it to produce a result. That's an "evaluation" in both case. 17:41:17 You can invent other kind of evaluations. For example INFER-TYPE. 17:41:18 pjb, I don't know lisp at all... I might be very well wasting your guys' time :/ 17:41:42 Symmetry-: this is more general than lisp. But you will find these answers in lisp history. 17:41:58 about currying, I realize it can be done now, but under this thing, you would do (define add-ten (x) (+ x 10)) 17:42:02 looks very clean 17:42:13 defun 17:42:14 wait, I don't think that's currying... 17:42:18 lol 17:42:18 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:42:36 Symmetry-: be careful, because currying works well only when functions only take one argument. 17:43:06 (it can be a tuple, but it's still one argument). In Lisp, functions may take more than one argument, so currying is more complex, syntaxically. 17:43:35 mm so what should I be careful about? 17:43:57 Symmetry-: that's not currying, that's defining a function... and under your scheme you'd need to (eval (defun ...)) right? 17:44:05 -!- letexpx is now known as letexpx|aw 17:44:07 The practically of a curry operator in lisp is not as useful as in Haskell. 17:44:23 drewc, no eval needed, it returns a list 17:44:37 aka a new function 17:44:39 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c147-47.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:44:51 (+ X 10) contains a symbol X, not the value of the paramter of add-ten. 17:45:02 good point 17:45:18 Symmetry-: a list is not a function... it needs some kind of evaluation to turn it into one. 17:45:51 yeah, I was thinking to delay this evaluation until the very last moment when you e.g. need to print the function's result 17:46:23 but I'm riding the channel too much, I'll stop now :) 17:46:32 I'll read about FEXPR, thanks pjb 17:46:43 Read that AIM-8 memo, and about FEXPR. 17:46:48 ok 17:47:03 Macro weren't invented the first day, they came later in lisp history. 17:47:33 Wombatzus [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:51 Symmetry-: why would you delay the definition of a function until run time... taht would require the list be evaluated to make it a function every time you call the function... a massive performance hit! 17:48:09 drewc, purely academic 17:48:47 not every time, you could cache the result once someone evaluated it, etc 17:49:02 was just music about something "clean" and whether it would make sense 17:49:14 musing* damn 17:50:52 Symmetry-: so why not evaluate it immediately?... if you can cache the result that means it's not going to change... so when you evaluate is not really important.. save that evaluating at compile time will result in the function only being defined once, when compiling, rather than every time the program runs. 17:52:32 the expression could very well change after evaluation, in which case the cached value would be invalidated etc 17:52:58 but the thing I was imagining is always having the full "source" code at runtime, and being able to change it 17:53:39 dunno, it's super hazy, probably not worth troubling people over :/ 17:53:54 Symmetry-: you can do that, but in a more disciplined way. Basically, you do it function per function, if you want to redefine them at run-time. 17:54:09 how? 17:54:41 (setf (symbol-function f) (compile nil (list 'lambda '(x) (compute-some-expression-with 'x)))) (f 42) 17:55:17 You can use (coerce ... 'function) instead of (compile nil ...) if you hope for an interpreter. 17:55:32 wow I really need to learn lisp heh 17:55:35 Symmetry-: changing the actual source code at runtime would rarely be useful.. that's what first class functions are for! 17:56:52 minion: tell Symmetry- about pcl 17:56:52 Symmetry-: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 17:57:18 oh, I tried gigamonkeys, I failed spectacularly at understanding it :( 17:57:23 ah... building ghc reminds one how quick SBCL builds itself... 17:57:33 minion: tell Symmetry- about gentle 17:57:33 Symmetry-: have a look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 17:57:38 slyrus: Yeah I was surprised, too! 17:57:48 Symmetry-: then try gentle, it's easier. 17:57:53 Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 17:57:58 oh, looks like just the thing.. 17:59:07 Oh, I guess it's good I missed the beginnning of this exchange. 17:59:39 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-103.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:59:45 thanks pjb, reading it 18:00:03 you know what the world needs, a Lisp book for C programmers :/ 18:00:16 people who see pointers everywhere 18:00:31 -!- Pb is now known as _Pb 18:00:47 -!- _Pb is now known as register 18:00:59 It would have been fun in C to type x = y + 1 and get back "x = y + 1", and then when you said compute(x = y + 1) you would get back "compute(x = y + 1)". 18:01:03 Symmetry-: Uhm, Lisp is more full of pointers than C 18:01:06 Symmetry-: PCL is intended for C programmers too. 18:01:08 Symmetry-: just think of every variable to a composite object as being a pointer variable 18:01:17 -!- register is now known as Guest79271 18:01:20 -!- Guest79271 is now known as _Pb 18:02:21 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has left #lisp 18:03:54 beach: have a look at: http://www.csg.is.titech.ac.jp/~chiba/openc++.html ; not C, but C++. It should be possible with templates to be able to get "x=y+1" from x=y+1 ; boost::lambda already does something similar. 18:04:25 openc++ is a system to do metaobject programming in C++. 18:04:57 oh dear! 18:05:04 yeah. 18:05:26 Paper at OOPSLA'98, I'd bet a PhD, everything.. 18:06:04 minion: memo for fusss: I'm not sure if it was you who asked about inter-app authentication API, but here's one: http://oauth.net/ 18:06:04 Remembered. I'll tell fusss when he/she/it next speaks. 18:06:23 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:06:43 -!- swilde [n=wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:07:59 -!- letexpx|aw is now known as letexpx 18:08:01 -!- Watbesiktningen is now known as Supbesiktningen 18:08:24 -!- Supbesiktningen is now known as Ensamdrinkarna 18:08:49 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 18:09:11 pjb: I am no longer surprised as to what is accepted in conferences on programming languages. I am very disappointed though. 18:13:50 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-76-104-220-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:49 -!- letexpx [n=letexpx@abo-223-141-68.bdx.modulonet.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:24:14 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 18:24:35 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-175.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 18:27:50 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-175.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 18:31:30 -!- CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:31:38 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:11 S11001001: I'm back 18:32:30 trsh [n=ferm@78-1-155-99.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 18:35:56 Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:44 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-68-32-44-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:43:26 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:44:12 drewc, no eval needed, it returns a list <-- that's how emacs lisp works, largely. But that's an ugly implementation detail which you don't generally want if you want to have any chance of ever being efficient 18:44:27 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-182-191-195.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:04 mathrick: sorry... lost the context there.. huh? 18:46:21 drewc: elisp functions are lists 18:46:27 of bytecode or sexps 18:46:42 and to call a function, the interpreter evals the list 18:48:00 mathrick: yes... one still needs to eval the DEFUN form, which was my point. 18:48:16 Symmetry-: you might also want to look at picolisp, it's very minimalistic, uses QUOTE instead of LAMBDA, and allows things like passing IF into higher-order functions 18:48:26 drewc: sure 18:50:00 mathrick: also, static scoping (which i hope we all can agree is a better default) makes such an implementation a little more terrible :) 18:51:05 http://www.csg.is.titech.ac.jp/~chiba/openc++.html <-- ugh, that's not what a MOP is 18:51:26 drewc: I know, I was going to mention it :) 18:51:54 even elisp warns against relying on functions being lists and deprecates treating them as such 18:53:30 blandest [n=user@79.112.96.174] has joined #lisp 18:54:13 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:55:33 beach, why? 18:57:11 mathrick: I'd say that a student of Kiczales's probably has a good grasp of what a MOP is. 18:57:12 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.179.30] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:57:24 Yeah, really my impression as well. 18:57:33 wasabi_____ [n=wasabi@nttkyo434120.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:58:36 pkhuong: he presents MOP as a "tool for C++ source-to-source transformation". That's not a MOP 18:59:20 OpenCXX is from the period when Kiczales was trying to make things less circular (the "Metahelix" paper), before AOP. 18:59:36 link to the paper? 18:59:56 hi pkhuong 18:59:58 -!- Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.93.74.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:59:58 mathrick, just google metahelix 19:00:02 right 19:00:41 mathrick: why not? Nearly all the interesting generic functions in the AMOP perform source-to-source transformations. 19:01:15 -!- wasabi____ [n=wasabi@nttkyo1003124.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:01:38 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 19:02:08 qidush [n=qidush@c83-252-27-42.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:02:48 -!- matley- [n=matley@91.80.133.59] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:02:49 mathrick: It's an example for a static MOP. 19:02:58 pkhuong: howso? I'd say they provide implementation for a single interface, I don't see where they concern themselves with returning source 19:03:21 -!- Ensamdrinkarna [i=HydraIRC@79.138.207.203.bredband.tre.se] has left #lisp 19:03:25 *implementations 19:03:39 I think that's where the future of Lisp is, too. Or, how I image an ideal compiler would look like. 19:03:44 imagine 19:03:52 you mean the static MOP? 19:04:01 why? How's it better than a dynamic one? 19:04:14 Yeah, or rather a compiler that provides an interface to its internals via a MOP 19:04:40 ShadowChild [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 19:04:51 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:56 I still object to calling this a "MOP". MOP is the object-system-expressed-in-object-system 19:05:11 if you want compiler internals, there are other names, don't overload MOP 19:05:22 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:05:23 No it's not. 19:05:38 Meta sticks to the P, not the O 19:06:20 umm 19:07:32 -!- ShadowChild is now known as lukjad007 19:09:25 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1D60B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:02 mathrick: again, kiczales seems fairly certain that the heart of MOPery is in the translucid language implementation that offers well-thought-out customisation hooks. You might argue that that's only because that is his overarching research interest, but that is how he uses the term himself. See or pkhuong: the end of your message got truncated, including the second URL 19:12:51 but will do 19:13:17 ... or for an idea of how long he's been on that track. 19:13:23 thanks 19:13:49 *drewc* loves the MOP compiler stuff. 19:14:06 anyway, I might disagree because I come from CL, which has had introspection before MOP, and I see it in this context, not having researched it before it's taken the shape it has today 19:14:15 MOP stands for an arbitrary meta protocol based on objects 19:15:13 Even a static MOP is a form of introspection 19:15:13 The objects are "meta" because they represent language-level constructs. 19:15:19 that's true, too 19:15:30 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-96-75.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:31 mathrick: sorry, couldn't get net access here for a bit 19:15:44 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@89.166.150.16] has joined #lisp 19:15:47 no worries 19:15:57 pkhuong: Actually, very true indeed. I think that's a better explanation of the term 19:16:17 right, it's metaobject protocol, not meta object-protocol... 19:16:20 errr ... 19:16:23 yeah 19:17:20 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.20.45] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:17:40 *tcr* finds stuff missing from the pretty-printer. I wonder how many people wrote substantial stuff with it and for how long before it was decided to go in. 19:17:41 OK, I suppose that's a valid perspective too 19:17:52 tcr: about 20 years? 19:17:56 or was it 15 19:18:00 something in that league 19:18:01 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B21D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:18:08 read Waters's papers 19:18:31 what do you find missing? 19:18:52 That does not answer the question in any way. Obviously I meant for people different than the original author 19:18:56 what irks me personally is that I can't see a way to specify how abbreviation is done for example, it just puts # there 19:19:56 that ain't gonna end up well if you use do something like present your Lisp as Ruby or something else that uses # as comments 19:20:54 ruby would be a pretty close match for presenting lisp code to wider audience, since it also allows any expression to have a value 19:21:42 proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 19:21:48 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.232.50] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:22:22 S11001001: so, what's up? Have you read that thread? 19:23:09 oh, lemme read your email, I just noticed 19:23:24 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-25-23.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:25:55 Ohh... I think I just figured out how to use with-condition-restarts. 19:27:02 It's rather bizarre, you have to establish your restarts using some other macro (restart-bind, restart-case or with-simple-restart), and then use find-restart or compute-restarts to obtain the actual restart objects. 19:27:06 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrspec 19:28:34 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:47 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:29:36 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 19:30:20 -!- antgreen [n=Anthony@bas2-toronto06-1279542440.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:30:54 Yeah, I think it'd have been saner to add a :conditions option to RESTART-BIND 19:32:28 worst bug in the spec since dolist! 19:33:22 Hey, I /defended/ how dolist is specified! 19:33:25 tcr: :test option for both restart-bind and restart-case. 19:33:46 whoah .. i've never looked at the spec for dolist before... 19:34:34 i had no idea there's a TAGBODY there... WTF!? :) 19:35:06 tcr: and very well, too 19:35:22 nyef: True 19:35:26 Makes a certain amount of sense. I mean, the body isn't going to return any usable value, so there's no reason not to use a tagbody... 19:35:29 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:35:45 drewc: the other do-foo are also like that, no? 19:35:46 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:35:59 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:36:03 pkhuong: never looked them up either :) 19:36:51 nyef: there's no good reason _to_ use a tagbody either... i think it's quite odd indeed. 19:37:14 drewc: You didn't know? It's how you continue in Lisp. (dotimes (i 10) (when (oddp i) (go :next)) (print i) :next) 19:37:39 So there's some rationale for the association of restarts to conditions... On an instance-by-instance basis (a particular condition object, not for all conditions of a given class)... 19:37:48 well, have some of that... still learning new things all the time! 19:37:56 this lisp beast is f'n huge! 19:38:16 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:38:17 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:39:09 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-14-161.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:39:10 drewc: Looks like it's a learning day for everybody... I just wrote my first nested-backquote macro (although a very small one) 19:39:33 This necessitates, at the very least, separating the creation of the condition object from its signalling, which is an unusual scenario from what I've seen, along with establishing the associations for the restarts if not the restarts themselves in between... 19:40:19 Adlai: w00t! i remember the first time i had to do that... head-breaking stuff. 19:40:27 nyef: There was some bit about not relying on EQ for conditions due to some case in resignalling. 19:40:31 Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 19:41:15 keithr` [n=user@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:21 I'll try to find it 19:41:24 Yeah, which suggests that a program can create the condition objects -well- ahead of time and just re-use them as needed. 19:41:24 luis` [n=user@r42.eu] has joined #lisp 19:41:31 tsuru` [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:53 (How well ahead of time? load-time-value comes to mind.) 19:41:59 drewc: this is actually a pretty small macro -- it's a macrolet, too. It automates importing macros from another package without symbol importing conflicts. 19:42:30 So it's kindof cute, but who actually uses this stuff? 19:42:35 nyef. wouldn't that be useful only for trivial, slotless conditions? 19:42:58 -!- wasabi_____ [n=wasabi@nttkyo434120.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:42:58 -!- Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:42:58 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:42:58 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-78-106.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:42:58 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:42:58 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:42:58 -!- keithr [n=user@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 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[n=mattrepl@wsip-70-182-191-195.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 19:44:03 clhs 9.1.4.1.1 19:44:03 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/09_adaa.htm 19:44:22 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 19:44:45 nyef: Pooling conditions does not seem to be allowed by that 19:44:49 Axioplase_ [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 19:44:58 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 19:44:59 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 19:45:02 ineiros [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 19:45:08 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:45:09 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 19:45:35 azanar [n=azanar@dsl231-050-107.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:36 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest831 19:45:40 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 19:47:16 -!- Guest831 is now known as pkhuong 19:48:23 vcgomes 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luis` is now known as luis 20:09:03 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 20:09:40 -!- jao [n=jao@127.Red-213-98-196.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:13:55 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-39.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:14:18 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 20:16:35 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:18:54 fgtech [n=federico@host54-219-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:24:56 mathrick: what I miss pretty often is a (PPRINT-NEWLINE :MANDATORY) that works like FRESH-LINE 20:25:36 I also want a PPRINT-REST that's like PPRINT-POP but gives all of the remaining, unprocessed elements 20:36:16 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 20:36:16 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit [Client Quit] 20:36:37 Lycurgus [n=Ren@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 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21:01:54 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit [Client Quit] 21:03:53 housel [n=user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 21:08:05 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:08 Hi all. 21:08:15 hi\ 21:08:29 Is there any way to implement a (while (cond) body) loop in CL without using that (progn hack? 21:08:42 I want (while to be a macro. 21:08:49 progn hack? 21:08:54 well, just write a macro 21:08:55 stassats: with goto 21:09:10 stassats: yes, but how. 21:09:34 How will I convert the cond and body to the equivalent loop? 21:09:41 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:10:03 (progn uses a goto for that. 21:10:19 rindolf: a goto in progn? 21:10:19 i think you mean PROG 21:10:27 stassats: maybe. 21:10:34 Maybe it's (prog) 21:11:03 http://p-cos.blogspot.com/2007/02/what-is-point-of-macros.html -hmmm.. 21:11:15 Maybe you want DO. 21:11:17 Or tagbody. 21:11:19 pkhuong: ah. 21:11:22 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:11:23 pkhuong: DO confuses me. 21:11:32 (defmacro while (cond &body body) `(loop while ,cond do ,@body)) is the simplest way 21:11:36 rindolf: (defmacro whole (test &body body) `(do () ((not ,test)) ,@body)) is one simple way. 21:11:38 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:43 s/whole/while/ 21:11:46 rme: thanks 21:11:48 stassats: but that leaks. 21:11:50 Hmm.... 21:11:59 (some people don't like using loop in macros) 21:12:14 We got to bootstrap from somewhere. 21:12:27 don't you have LOOP? 21:12:44 I'd like to work on Spark - my own pet dialect of Lisp and I'm thinking of the best way to implement macros. 21:12:58 I like (defmacros' simplicity and intuitiveness. 21:13:56 The question is - how many built-in looping primitive should the backend provide before I can implement the rest with macros in the prelude? 21:14:08 ... goto? 21:14:32 stassats: to anywhere inside the function. 21:14:39 tail recursion is goto in disguise 21:14:43 stassats: yes. 21:14:45 It's best to build iteration macros based on tagbody and go. At least in Common Lisp. 21:14:55 tcr: ah. 21:15:01 I find it non-elegant. 21:15:08 And I'm not an anti-goto purist. 21:15:12 http://trac.clozure.com/openmcl/browser/trunk/source/lib/macros.lisp#L1009 is another way. 21:15:17 tcr: i forgot the argument 21:15:49 The whole "Goto statement considered harmful" is overblown. 21:16:27 rindolf: That depends on what constitutes elegance for you. For me, robustness is a necessary premise of elegance. 21:16:40 The whole story is that Knuth ended up writing "Structured Programming using Goto statements" where he showed how goto often helped SP. 21:16:40 stassats: It's just too damn hard otherwise 21:17:07 tcr: maybe I'll implement something like C's for-loop and everything based on that. 21:17:15 rindolf: That's DO. 21:17:38 tcr: how is DO different from FOR? DO confuses me. 21:17:45 Or had confused me. 21:17:53 Could never get it to work. 21:17:57 rindolf: DO wraps up a basic while loop with variable bindings. 21:17:59 Uh it's just like for 21:18:07 tcr: with different syntax. 21:18:15 No 21:18:19 variable bindings and rebindings for subsequent clauses. 21:18:23 Slightly different, ok :) 21:18:41 tcr: hard? i don't know, i use LOOP in some simple cases, feels ok 21:18:42 DO used to confuse me. Then I realized that it was completely unnecessary and could be ignored. Now, DO only confuses me when someone else uses it. 21:19:06 nyef: do you use LOOP instead? 21:19:15 Most of the time, yes. 21:19:15 stassats: It's broken. May be ok for non-exported stuff. 21:19:43 I think the advantage of LOOP or ITERATE or any structured loop facility is that you can hide ugly code behind a :collect clause. 21:19:49 i've used it for non-exported macros, yes 21:20:05 I'll admit that most of the time I don't have macros that expand to iteration constructs, though. 21:20:18 (iter) is pretty nifty. 21:20:25 But it's complicated. 21:20:40 nyef: yes, but loop expands :collect clauses into much more efficient code than you'd ever want to see with the naked eye. 21:20:47 And I'm not implementing it as a primitive. 21:21:00 Adlai: really? 21:21:04 Thanks for all the commentary guys. 21:21:09 rme: That definition differs from the one you gave first, though :) 21:21:41 stassats: it keeps two references -- one to the collecting variable, and one to the last CDR of the collecting variable. 21:22:12 You can easily do that manually without much fuss. 21:22:16 ie, it's more efficient than the push/nreverse idiom 21:22:19 in sbcl, yes, but that's not so efficient 21:22:19 tcr: heh. That's why I put in the "one simple way" weasel words! 21:22:58 (clisp expands into push/nreverse) 21:22:59 Adlai: But not much more efficient than the spare cons cell "push cdar" trick. 21:23:24 rme: I think the DO version is better. 21:23:25 Do I mean push cdar? Maybe not... 21:23:26 nyef: I think that's what it does -- that's what I was trying to describe. 21:23:43 Yeah, it's some trick that I usually have to work out from first principles every time I try to write it. 21:24:02 nyef: I think just (push (cdr ) ...) 21:24:02 Oh well. 21:24:27 so yeah, on CCL and Allegro at least, loop's :collect expands into that 21:24:36 probably same with SBCL 21:24:38 Something like that. Or it involved SETF and CONS instead of PUSH... 21:24:47 or rplacd 21:25:03 danlei` [n=user@pD954FD45.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:16 yeah, I guess at that point it's a matter of whether the implementation as a whole is done bottom-up or all-at-once :) 21:25:19 *nyef* hits stassats over the head with DEFSETF. 21:25:54 Adlai: In terms of implementation, or compilation? 21:26:08 using rplacd makes me feel old-school 21:26:18 Adlai: http://paste.lisp.org/display/53651 21:26:53 nyef: true, I guess for compilation, you should generate efficient code regardless of "readability" 21:27:00 tcr: that's a big macro :P 21:27:26 Adlai: I was more going for the "if your compilation environment is strong enough, it should already have the required DEFSETF". 21:28:02 tcr: hmmmmm. 21:28:10 -!- morganb [n=user@76.109.10.14] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:28:28 morganb [n=user@76.109.10.14] has joined #lisp 21:28:43 That's my primary case for a (favor-this-branch) declaration 21:29:05 what's nconcf? 21:29:19 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:29:25 like setf but nconc? 21:29:34 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [] 21:29:37 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:02 I'd presume like nconc, but returns the list appended, not the list appended to. 21:30:15 Adlai: (define-modify-macro nconcf (&rest lists) nconc) 21:30:17 (nconf foo lists) == (setf foo (nconc foo lists)) 21:30:25 well, make that ~= 21:30:40 -!- jhalogen [n=jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:30:58 (define-modify-macro nconcf (&rest lists) nconc) 21:31:09 damn it, I'm too slow 21:31:12 no cookie for you! 21:31:30 tcr: collect your cookie at http://www.msn.com/ 21:31:50 Let's race. http://play.typeracer.com/?rt=trluismbo 21:32:36 ... Ah, it's nconc that requires that the first list be a place reference and does something sane if that place contains NIL? 21:32:40 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-wmxcwmyoaipevswi] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:32:49 jao [n=jao@127.Red-213-98-196.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:55 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-hwyqvhpykfohoxgj] has joined #lisp 21:35:03 the latter is provided by the place machinery, the point of nconcf is not to doubly evaluate the place in the form luis showed 21:35:13 typing is hard 21:35:13 demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-197-035.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:25 seisatsu [n=seisatsu@adsl-63-198-106-143.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:14 tcr: But you don't get the latter if you just nconc a place that contains a NIL, you need the SETF, at which point you may as well bring in define-modify-macro to eliminate the double-evaluation. 21:37:02 nyef: Yeah, of course, I thought we were speaking relatively to the setf form 21:37:40 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host54-219-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:37:58 fgtech [n=federico@host54-219-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:42:06 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CB4D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:42:44 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host54-219-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:43:06 fgtech [n=federico@host54-219-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:46:24 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-8352.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 21:49:00 -!- banisterfiend [n=little_b@203-211-73-165.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:50:33 banisterfiend [n=little_b@203-211-71-100.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:50:52 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:50:58 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit ["leaving"] 21:51:06 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-78-106.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:52:51 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 21:54:55 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 22:01:54 -!- fgtech [n=federico@host54-219-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:04:46 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit ["leaving"] 22:04:59 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 22:06:48 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Client Quit] 22:07:34 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 22:08:18 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:11:18 -!- Kortatu [n=Usuario@176.Red-79-151-122.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Saliendo"] 22:14:40 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:16:42 -!- pizzledizzle [n=pizdets@pool-96-250-220-91.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:18:10 -!- mrspec [n=NoOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [] 22:19:04 -!- demmel [n=demmel@dslb-094-216-197-035.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 22:19:54 hm, this is probably a bad question to ask, but here goes... I misunderstood the registration deadline for ECLM, and thought that I could still register today (the 15th). Is there any way to still sign up? 22:20:20 mail Edi? 22:22:03 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:25:42 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 22:27:05 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:28:04 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:28:40 *nyef* sighs. 22:29:09 I've checked every floppy disk and disk image I've been able to lay my hands on, and none of them appear to contain the latest version of my Forth system. :-/ 22:29:53 nyef: interesting source code control sytem :) 22:30:03 -!- tvaalen [n=tvaal@unaffiliated/tvaal] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:30:22 Periodic backups of full disk images? Yeah, but it's one of the ones that actually works with block-structured source. 22:31:15 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:31:30 nyef: you still have actual floppy disks? 22:31:38 *rsynnott* hasn't had a floppy drive since 2004 22:31:45 rsynnott: Yeah. And a p133 laptop that takes 'em. 22:32:28 (I gave the laptop with the floppy drive to my mum, then my little brother managed to destroy it, so no more floppy disks) 22:33:03 I sort of miss floppies 22:33:42 *stassats* remembers installing linux on a laptop using more than 50 floppies 22:34:23 ouch 22:34:25 not NIC? 22:34:29 *no 22:34:45 So either there's a more up-to-date floppy disk floating around somewhere, or there's a stray disk image somewhere that I haven't found yet after having checked all of the likely filesystems. 22:34:51 I had an Apple ][ program that made noises by moving the floppy head... impressive 22:35:01 no, later i managed to use serial port for the network 22:35:28 and that was... in 2007 22:35:34 Fare: ah, apple, of course, had highly advanced floppy drives which could detect the disk being put in 22:35:50 rsynnott: Not the ][. 22:36:16 rsynnott: The insertion-detection came with the 3.5" drives available for the Mac, and later the IIgs. 22:36:22 (all floppy drives do this, but due to poor standardisation they signal it in different ways; MS were originally going to have floppy autorun in Win95, but it would have been too unreliable) 22:36:26 a 22:36:29 h 22:37:03 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:37:05 autorun is evil 22:37:08 And, at that, it's a polled mechanism. 22:38:31 (The classic Apple drive controllers had no interrupt lines.) 22:38:37 My dad used to have a 3" floppy drive 22:38:45 _not_ 3.5" 22:39:05 (he picked the wrong competing standard, obviously) 22:39:26 that's like blue ray vs. hd-dvd 22:39:48 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:39:54 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:40:26 they were much cheaper than the 3.5" drives 22:40:39 and more compact? 22:40:41 also, they were actually floppy, like tiny 5.25" drives 22:40:45 *disks 22:41:09 (This was for the BBC Micro, which spawned a lot of weird incompatible hardware) 22:47:16 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-99-185-244-61.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:06 3" floppies? reminds me mostly of Amstrads 22:50:50 may have been the same one 22:51:19 both computers were products of the proud british tradition of making extremely weird hardware 22:51:38 (the Amstrad had its power supply in its MONITOR!) 22:52:03 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:53:32 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-99-185-244-61.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:53:45 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-99-185-244-61.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:30 hmm... in USSR, otoh, apparently PDP-11 ruled the day, made into then popular variant of PC 22:59:20 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-175.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 23:03:18 How comes that? 23:03:59 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-8352.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:04:28 -!- danlei [n=user@pD954FD45.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:06:33 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1D60B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:08:05 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-84-207.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:08:32 Does anyone have a reference for the claim that one of the goals of the CMUCL project was performance parity with fortran? 23:10:53 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:11:59 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 23:13:29 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:24:24 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:24:28 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:24:44 pkhuong: The "Design Overview" section of "The Python Compiler for CMU Common Lisp" by MacLachlan suggests otherwise. 23:25:56 -!- saikat_ is now known as sheena 23:26:10 -!- sheena [n=saikat@adsl-99-185-244-61.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 23:26:16 nyef: same impression here! 23:27:21 3/4 23:27:22 3/5 23:27:34 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:27:56 /4/1 23:29:28 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:09 pkhuong: Steele and Gabriel's history of Lisp paper says that numeric performance was an important goal in MacLisp (particularly with NCOMPLR). 23:30:45 rme: MACLISP and SPICE are independent branches (except that SPICE bootstrapped on MAC) 23:31:08 -!- angerman [n=angerman@p57A3938A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 23:32:22 pkhuong: yes, I was just wondering if you might have been thinking of MacLisp in re Lisp v. Fortran performance, since it was an explicit goal there. 23:33:04 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:52 (Well, maybe not an explicit goal of "beat Fortran", but of good numerical code generally. But I blather.) 23:36:26 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:36:30 nyef: heh, I have exactly the same approach to DO :) 23:36:56 parity with fortran sounds absurdly ambitious 23:37:04 rsynnott: not in 1980. 23:37:31 danlei [n=user@pD954FD45.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:33 has fortran been getting any faster? 23:37:53 Sikander [n=soemraws@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 23:38:08 I used to have issues with DO, but Python fixed that. 23:38:13 ie, why would parity with fortran sound any less ambitious in 1980 than today? 23:38:34 Definitely, since the amount of fiddly work would be much smaller. 23:39:06 tvaalen [n=tvaal@terminal.se] has joined #lisp 23:39:38 what do you mean by fiddly work? things aside from just integers, conses, and vectors? 23:39:53 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 23:39:55 All the magic loop optimisation I don't really believe in was developped in the 90's. 23:41:58 Bacta [n=gfdgdf@118-92-248-45.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:43:28 Proebsting's law tells us it doesn't really work, but if it's good for SPEC, it's worth spending man-years on. 23:51:55 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-24-5-85-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:00 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Success]